From smarc at smarc.net  Wed Jul  2 10:42:40 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:42:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
Message-ID: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>

I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage. 
I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20. 
Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101

-- 

Marc

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 10:56:15 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:56:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807020956i5c565fc3lca18d4f07abfb0e2@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:
> I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage.
> I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20.
> Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101
>
It will probably work for that much, but not too much more.  My local
hardware store will thread pipes for not much, if you buy the pipe
from them.  That would my choice for full lengths of pipe.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Jul  2 11:04:01 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
Message-ID: <200807021704.m62H416B004663@moose.dimebank.com>

>  My local
> hardware store will thread pipes for not much, if you buy the pipe
> from them.  That would my choice for full lengths of pipe.

Agreed. Be aware that some hardware stores will have the equipment
but not have someone who knows how to use it! I have had to
run the threading lathe more than once.

From smarc at smarc.net  Wed Jul  2 11:03:41 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:03:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40807020956i5c565fc3lca18d4f07abfb0e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807020956i5c565fc3lca18d4f07abfb0e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486BB4ED.90503@smarc.net>

Might be ok, then. I figure maybe 10 joints tops that I need to make. 
Any use beyond that would be very very occasional...

David Scheidt wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:
>   
>> I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage.
>> I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20.
>> Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101
>>
>>     
> It will probably work for that much, but not too much more.  My local
> hardware store will thread pipes for not much, if you buy the pipe
> from them.  That would my choice for full lengths of pipe.
>
>
>
>   

-- 

Marc

From tr6 at pipeline.com  Wed Jul  2 11:25:35 2008
From: tr6 at pipeline.com (Ronald Olds)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:25:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAGR0/UN+345Oi0ESU7rmM4wBAITr15KniR9MuVqf/6yjAv4AAAFImMEAABAAAACd7dhFgeKWS5aQhDbhSLrTAQAAAAA=@pipeline.com>

When I did mine I bought the pipe from Home Depot and they cut and threaded
the pipe for free.

Ron Olds

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Marc
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 12:43 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader

I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage. 
I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20. 
Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101

-- 

Marc
You are subscribed as tr6 at pipeline.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jul  2 11:29:02 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:29:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <01d801c8dc69$1f730e90$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage.
> I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20.
> Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101

I bought one last week ... going to return it this week after cutting a
single 1/2" thread with it.  The die teeth are miscut or not sharp or
something, so it took an enormous amount of force to turn the die; and the
ratchet was not up to the task.  It now slips badly.

But as usual with HF, their quality control is non-existent, so possibly I
just got a bad one.  Next one might be OK.

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Jul  2 11:31:38 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:31:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021330560.1048@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Marc wrote:
> I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage. 
> I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20. 
> Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101

Yep.  Worked fine for me.

I think their electric version is currently only like $99 right now 
though... You wouldn't need to do all that much threading before that'd 
bet worth $100.

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 11:41:58 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:41:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <486BB4ED.90503@smarc.net>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807020956i5c565fc3lca18d4f07abfb0e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<486BB4ED.90503@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807021041m6f1b2105rd0dfc0cb0bc279bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:
> Might be ok, then. I figure maybe 10 joints tops that I need to make. Any
> use beyond that would be very very occasional...
>

Yeah, I'd think that's fine.  The big problem is that they're slow.
And they don't work very fast.  And it takes a long time to cut
threads.  And it's from HF, so I'd bet the die isn't very good.  And
it's slow.  Did I mention it's slow to use one of these?

The last time I put a bunch of pipe in, we had the full pieces
threaded, and the cuts we knew we could make in advance.  The few
pieces we threaded (maybe 6 or 8) took about as much time to thread as
it did to install the rest of the 30X60 loop.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bottorff25 at verizon.net  Wed Jul  2 11:43:24 2008
From: bottorff25 at verizon.net (bottorff25 at verizon.net)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:43:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
Message-ID: <23166459.598731215020604764.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net>

I used this exact one just a few months ago to thread 3/4" black pipe for the new gas line that I layed down the side of our house and into the kitchen. It worked beautifully for me.


>From: Marc <smarc at smarc.net>
>Date: 2008/07/02 Wed AM 11:42:40 CDT
>To: Shop Talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader

>I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage. 
>I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20. 
>Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101
>
>-- 
>
>Marc
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as bottorff25 at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From bottorff25 at verizon.net  Wed Jul  2 11:52:48 2008
From: bottorff25 at verizon.net (bottorff25 at verizon.net)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:52:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
Message-ID: <5108799.603501215021168195.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net>

The nice thing about having your own pipe thread cutter is that you don't have to know ahead of time what all of the lengths of pipe need to be. You can cut and thread each pipe as you go for a "custom" fit. Or to allow for the times you read the tape measure wrong ;)

On my project I cut threads on about 12 pipes. As long as I kept the pipe coated in oil the threads cut cleanly for me. If you didn't keep the die oiled you got miserable cuts. Hopefully your bench vise has a pipe vise built into the jaws. That's a must in order to hold the pipe firmly while cutting the threads.

>From: Chris Kantarjiev <cak at dimebank.com>
>Date: 2008/07/02 Wed PM 12:04:01 CDT
>To: dmscheidt at gmail.com, smarc at smarc.net
>Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] pipe threader

>>  My local
>> hardware store will thread pipes for not much, if you buy the pipe
>> from them.  That would my choice for full lengths of pipe.
>
>Agreed. Be aware that some hardware stores will have the equipment
>but not have someone who knows how to use it! I have had to
>run the threading lathe more than once.
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as bottorff25 at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Jul  2 12:01:07 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:01:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <5108799.603501215021168195.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <5108799.603501215021168195.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021400370.6559@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, bottorff25 at verizon.net wrote:
> Hopefully your bench vise has a pipe vise built into the jaws. That's a 
> must in order to hold the pipe firmly while cutting the threads.

At HF, right next to the pipe threaders will be the pipe vice... :-)

Mark

From smarc at smarc.net  Wed Jul  2 12:16:44 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:16:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021400370.6559@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5108799.603501215021168195.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021400370.6559@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <486BC60C.20907@smarc.net>

Well, a pipe VICE is something I haven't got. I do have several VISES  
though! ;-) And, horrible freight vises are another thing altogether... 
I've broken 3 of 'em...

Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, bottorff25 at verizon.net wrote:
>   
>> Hopefully your bench vise has a pipe vise built into the jaws. That's a 
>> must in order to hold the pipe firmly while cutting the threads.
>>     
>
> At HF, right next to the pipe threaders will be the pipe vice... :-)
>
>   

-- 

Marc

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jul  2 12:18:17 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:18:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021330560.1048@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021330560.1048@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <01f201c8dc70$03833f00$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I think their electric version is currently only like $99 right now
> though... You wouldn't need to do all that much threading before that'd
> bet worth $100.

Do you mean this one?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41876

Randall

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Jul  2 12:27:57 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:27:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
Message-ID: <7DFD019A00C84F34BB1D5F97E841A545@OwnerPC>

I'd check on renting a little electric machine... they have some nice Rigid
machines that will cut, deburr and thread all on one machine and it's about as
big as a mailbox... really neat and I'll bet you can rent it for the price of
the H.F. piece of crap that will die after two threads...

just a thought
john


I like long walks,
 especially when they are taken
 by people who annoy me.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Jul  2 13:29:21 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:29:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <01f201c8dc70$03833f00$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021330560.1048@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<01f201c8dc70$03833f00$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807021520550.9099@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Yeah, that's it.  Though I thought I saw it in a sale catalog for $99.

Looking for that, I notice that they've got the manual sets on sale:

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/tabviewer/startBrowseBook.do?bookid=212&preview=&type=RET&simple=
page 16.

I've never used the electrical one, but the handheld manual one has worked 
fine for me on a few different projects.

I'd rather stab myself in the eye than have to premeasure everything I'd 
need to cut so that the store can thread it for me...

But even still, you only end up cutting/threading the non-full pipe 
lengths on a job, so its not like you're going to do a ton of threading 
anyway unless you're doing something odd.

Mark

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Randall wrote:

>> I think their electric version is currently only like $99 right now
>> though... You wouldn't need to do all that much threading before that'd
>> bet worth $100.
>
> Do you mean this one?
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41876
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Wed Jul  2 22:17:38 2008
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:17:38 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>

<<< 

I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage. 

I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20. 

Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101

>>> 

 

Put my name down in the "didn't even get one thread cut before it snapped in
two" column.

 

I wanted it so I could cleanly turn a couple of corners when installing a
gas pipe.  Ended up getting a few long pieces pre-threaded, a few lengths
that got it close, and a bunch of small nipples and couplers that I chose to
fit at the end.  If I was better at it I'd know how much to allow at each
joint, but am too far from the stores to have that make sense.  Measure
once, but twice what you need, curse thrice.

My next pipe project is air in the garage.  I bought an old Ridgid half inch
threader on ebay for the same price as the crap set from HF and it will go
to my son when I die.  

 

Mark Miller

Sebastopol, CA

-- 

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Wed Jul  2 23:40:52 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:40:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
Message-ID: <00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>

Dear Gents,

Once a year or so, I have the need to jump in on a thread with the plaintive 
plea of "please don't buy cheap tools." Order your stuff from McMaster-Carr, 
buy Milwaukee electric, Starrett gauges, Simpsom meters, Wilton vices, etc. 
You will never regret it.

I have a set of Rigid pipe dies that are a joy to use. I am a professor of 
business -- I am not making my living with these tools, but I truly enjoy 
using them in may garage.

I know the non-shop talk folks will buy HF detritus, but if the shop talk 
folks buy the same detritus, who will buy the quality tools and assure that 
quality tool providers exist?

Buy tools that you enjoy using. Tonight I needed to pull out my 30 year-old 
Simpson 260 meter for some measurements -- what a joy to use this precision 
instrument.

Life is way too short to use crap tools. You deserve better, boys. HF and 
the purveyors of junk tools are a blight on the shop talk community. I wish 
they did not exist. If they are successful, they will be you only choice for 
tools.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Miller" <markmiller at threeboysfarm.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:17 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)


> <<<
>
> I'm planning on installing 3/4" black iron piping for air in my garage.
>
> I notice horrible freight has 1/2" to 1" threader set on sale for $20.
>
> Anyone use this before? Ok for (very) occasional use?
>
>
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94101
>
>>>>
>
>
>
> Put my name down in the "didn't even get one thread cut before it snapped 
> in
> two" column.
>
>
>
> I wanted it so I could cleanly turn a couple of corners when installing a
> gas pipe.  Ended up getting a few long pieces pre-threaded, a few lengths
> that got it close, and a bunch of small nipples and couplers that I chose 
> to
> fit at the end.  If I was better at it I'd know how much to allow at each
> joint, but am too far from the stores to have that make sense.  Measure
> once, but twice what you need, curse thrice.
>
> My next pipe project is air in the garage.  I bought an old Ridgid half 
> inch
> threader on ebay for the same price as the crap set from HF and it will go
> to my son when I die.
>
>
>
> Mark Miller
>
> Sebastopol, CA
>
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Jul  3 00:14:28 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:14:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] pipe threader
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40807020956i5c565fc3lca18d4f07abfb0e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <486BB000.2040505@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807020956i5c565fc3lca18d4f07abfb0e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486C6E44.9010207@milleredp.com>

> It will probably work for that much, but not too much more.  My local
> hardware store will thread pipes for not much, if you buy the pipe
> from them.  That would my choice for full lengths of pipe.

I've got an OSH five minutes from my house, and a Home Depot a little 
further away.

When we did our remodel and I did the gas pipe in black iron, I would 
stop off at OSH in the morning and have the pieces I'd measured at the 
end of the previous day called back to the guy in back to cut it, go to 
the house and do some water pipe or low-voltage cabling for a couple 
hours, go back to OSH and pick up the cut pipe, back to the house and 
put that batch in, then do the cycle again later in the day.  Took me 
about three days to get all the gas pipe done that way.

The inevitable screw-ups, and the old gas pipe that'd come out of the 
house and wasn't worth re-using, ended up after a little hot and 
well-oiled holesaw action meeting up with Mr Mig and some steel angle 
and turning into ceiling-hung shelf stanchions in the garage and shop.

John.

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Jul  3 00:42:15 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:42:15 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <486C74C7.2050505@milleredp.com>

> buy Milwaukee electric, Starrett gauges, Simpsom meters, Wilton vices, etc. 
> You will never regret it.

Y'know, I more or less believe in that theory myself, but...

I've got a couple $9 Shenzhen Tool And Dog Collar Works (1998) Ltd. 
angle grinders from Harbor Freight.  They're nearly ten years old, one 
of 'em is rather noisy now, but they both work and they've done a full 
measure of work in that decade.   I just bought two more and I hope 
they'll do as well.

I've got a reasonable suite of Milwaukee Sawzalls, drills, etc. I've 
done a lot of work with both the corded Super Sawzall and the battery 
Sawzall and the well-beaten-on 14v drill I got off eBay for $25.  I'd 
love to buy more of their stuff but I just flipped over the box on a 
tool I was thinking of buying the other day, their stuff is Chinese now 
too.  The price of getting on the shelves at Home Depot?

My father had a set of manual Ridgid pipe-threading tools, I used them a 
couple times back in my teens, worked very well indeed.  I wish I knew 
where they went, I could have used them.  I think Ridgid's pipe tools 
are still good stuff.  But, like Husky and others, they've whored out 
their name to Home Depot for a whole lot of Chinese-made stuff of so-so 
quality.

HF is a crapshoot.  Some of their stuff is quite usable, some of it is 
utter crap.  I've got a few of their hand tools in my 
junkyard-scrounging tool set, and they're barely good enough for that. 
But I've got one of their abrasive cutoff saws - it's a piece of crap, 
but given just a bit of care it'll cut a square end, and with it I've 
built the vanity counter support frames and the range-hood support 
bracketry for our house, the frames for our outdoor kitchen peninsulas, 
the rotisserie on which I hung my '65 Mustang convertible and all the 
chassis reinforcement that went into that car, the end pieces to hang a 
friend's '66 Falcon on that rotisserie, and a bunch of other oddments. 
  Would I buy it again?  Probably not, I'd spend the money to get 
something with a more solid baseplate.  But I've more than gotten my $89 
or whatever out of it.

> Buy tools that you enjoy using. Tonight I needed to pull out my 30 year-old 
> Simpson 260 meter for some measurements -- what a joy to use this precision 
> instrument.

I generally agree with the sentiment, though my even-older hand-me-down 
Triplett and Simpson meters are shelved in favor of a couple nice 
modern-enough Waveteks I've gotten off eBay.

John.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jul  3 01:58:45 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 00:58:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <20080703075846.RTLG4229.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> buy Milwaukee electric, 

I tried that, once.  Broke the piggy bank to buy a 1/2" Magnum Holeshooter.
Took it back  a couple of months later, because the speed control quit
working, and the chuck developed a tight spot so bad you had to use the key
to turn it.  No, they wouldn't give me a new one, but they would repair mine
under warranty ...

Couple weeks later I got it back, still had exactly the same problems.  But
I needed to do some work with it, so I didn't return it for another month or
two.  Same story; they'd send it out; that time it took over a month for it
to come back.  And it still didn't work right.

Third time they kept it TWO months, then claimed it was out of warranty and
I would have to pay for the repair.  No, I couldn't have it back unrepaired,
they had already done the work and if I did not pay, I didn't get my drill.
The charge was nearly $50 (some 25 years ago), almost half what I paid in
the first place.  But they had finally fixed it right, and it was pay that
or buy a new one, so I paid.

It still works, so I can't complain about the quality.  But then, so does
the 1/4" B&D POS it replaced <G>

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul  3 06:23:11 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:23:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 10:40 PM 7/2/2008 -0700, old dirtbeard wrote:

>Once a year or so, I have the need to jump in on a thread with the plaintive 
>plea of "please don't buy cheap tools." Order your stuff from McMaster-Carr, 
>buy Milwaukee electric, Starrett gauges, Simpsom meters, Wilton vices, etc. 
>You will never regret it.

While I agree with your sentiment, I have to stop and wonder what's going
on here.  As you point out..

>I know the non-shop talk folks will buy HF detritus, but if the shop talk 
>folks buy the same detritus, who will buy the quality tools and assure that 
>quality tool providers exist?

We the buying public are to a good extent to blame for the offshoring of
so many of the jobs in our country.  We want everything cheap!  So to
cut costs, the manufactures went to places where they could get unskilled
labor and facilaties cheap!  Consiquently, the products we get back are
cheap and less expensive than items made in country.

Advertisers and manufactures are also to blame.  The have dropped the ball
by not pushing the fact that their products are made in our country or that
it helps keep jobs here.

That said, I think they are also to blame.  My personal belief is that they
got complacent and greedy.  How much does to cost to make and sell
something?  I needed a set of impact sockets back in about 88.  I went
to Sears to purchase a Craftsman set.  They wanted $56.  At that time
NorthernTools was in the area, and they only wanted about $10 for a
set.  I'd have gladly paid $15 to $20, but 5 times the price of the cheap
junk?  I've had the same impact socket set, and several other cheap
sets for about 20 yrs and haven't had a problem with them.

I remember the 1st socket set I purchases, an Industro 3/8" drive set
back in about 1967.  It cost me $20 and took me a month to save that 
much money out of my pay check.  I was working part time (while still in
high school) and making $1.15/hr.  I still have every piece of that set, and
it has always been the 1st tool I go for in my tool box.

>Buy tools that you enjoy using. Tonight I needed to pull out my 30 year-old 
>Simpson 260 meter for some measurements -- what a joy to use this precision 
>instrument.

Yes, some tools do have a feel.  I could never justify the $260 for a Simpson
260 meter.  I purchased a $35 Radio Shack meter on sale for $20 back
years ago.  It has served me well.  When I worked for Radio Shack back
in the mid 70s, we had a meter that was to compete with the Simpson, but 
not quite as good.  The Simpson case was a lot better the ours.  We sold our 
meter for $80.  Our store paid $17 to purchase the meter.  Again, I think
that 
much markup is a little steep.  I must admitt that we didn't sell that many
so 
they sat on the shelfs for quite a while.  Consiquently, we had to charge a
lot 
for them.  But what if we'd dropped the price to say $50, and sold more?

I guess I'd better get off my soap box now.  Thanks for listening.

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jul  3 07:36:20 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 06:36:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <58639.71406.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

More like $360 these days...

Doug

--- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> 
> Yes, some tools do have a feel.  I could never
> justify the $260 for a Simpson
> 260 meter. 

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Jul  3 07:50:31 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:50:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] good tools, cheap tools
In-Reply-To: <00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <0K3F004FPNVAKNL0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

No argument here that good tools are better than cheap tools, and 
probably the better way to go most of the time.  Sometimes, though, 
there is no way to justify the price of the good tool.  The choice is 
either to own the cheap tool, or not own the tool at all.  If I could 
have someone else do a job for $50, I might pay $100 for a tool, just 
because I want to do it myself and I will still have the tool when 
I'm done.  But when that tool is $500, I'm not buying it for only one 
job.  Well, OK, I might, but only because I'm a tool addict!  Rental 
is sometimes an option, but only for situations where I know I'll 
only need the tool for a short time.  I tend to do a lot of things a 
little at a time as time and energy allow.  If I need a tool for ten 
minutes at a time, but on four different occasions several days 
apart, rental just doesn't work.

At 01:40 AM 7/3/2008, old dirtbeard wrote:
>Dear Gents,
>
>Once a year or so, I have the need to jump in on a thread with the plaintive
>plea of "please don't buy cheap tools." Order your stuff from McMaster-Carr,
>buy Milwaukee electric, Starrett gauges, Simpsom meters, Wilton vices, etc.
>You will never regret it.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Jul  3 07:58:06 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:58:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] QUALITY TOOLS
Message-ID: <61B3E897B4B5450FB708D175F4A841B7@OwnerPC>

Yes, some tools do have a feel.  I could never justify the $260 for a Simpson
260 meter.  I purchased a $35 Radio Shack meter on sale for $20 back
years ago.  It has served me well.  When I worked for Radio Shack back
in the mid 70s, we had a meter that was to compete with the Simpson, but
not quite as good.  The Simpson case was a lot better the ours.  We sold our
meter for $80.  Our store paid $17 to purchase the meter. ......


I've got Fluke's and I've got Tripletts and I've got H.F. junkers (they get
thrown in the bucket boss for quick circuit checks)...   But I love my 260 and
that pretty little mirrored meter for tweaking circuits.  The digitals are ok
for general ac/dc stuff around the house and car... but the Simpson has "the
feel" and you can twist those alignment tools and see the tiniest movement in
the analog needle...  trying to peek something with that last two significant
digit flickering between 1 and 9 is frustrating at best.  I wish the case was
a little more forgiving.. if it goes off the bench or shelf... it's a gonner.

I feel the same about quality tools... the old ones anyway... many of my tools
are 10-15 years old and most are American made... they have a 'feel' that the
newer stuff just doesn't have.  They fit your hand, the edges are finished and
they're usually well balanced.  The later years has brought out more plastic,
unfinished edges that seem to irritate my hand sometimes and lower quality
workmanship/parts.  I've returned more than one tool that upon unpacking it
was d.o.a.  I've bought high dollar Millwaukee drills that I had to finish
assembling.... case screws weren't even screwed in all the way.  Automakers
here in the US had to catch up when the imports came in and spanked them with
their nice quality work... the USA plants are much better now because of it I
think .  Maybe if we start getting some good quality imports to show up the
'quality tool makers' we know, things will improve there ???   nah... we'll
just get the same old crap for 20% more...

john




I like long walks,  especially when they are taken  by people who annoy me.

From drew at DasRogges.com  Thu Jul  3 08:02:26 2008
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:02:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing sheet vinyl flooring
Message-ID: <486CDBF2.5020100@DasRogges.com>

Hi all,

Is there any trick to removing sheet vinyl flooring? We're replacing 30 year
old flooring in the kitchen and the scraper just seems to split the flooring
in two leaving the a paper backing or something like that. Does anyone know of
a good way to remove this stuff. FWIW, the flooring is laid on top of some sort
of fiberboard. I really don't want to leave the old flooring.

Thanks for any advice,
Drew

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Jul  3 08:09:59 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:09:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing sheet vinyl flooring
In-Reply-To: <486CDBF2.5020100@DasRogges.com>
References: <486CDBF2.5020100@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <0K3F00081OON7YV0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

If that fiberboard you're talking about is thin, say 1/4 inch, then I 
think you want to rip that out and replace it too.  Use whatever the 
new vinyl manufacturer recommends to replace it.

At 10:02 AM 7/3/2008, Drew Rogge wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Is there any trick to removing sheet vinyl flooring? We're replacing 30 year
>old flooring in the kitchen and the scraper just seems to split the flooring
>in two leaving the a paper backing or something like that. Does anyone know of
>a good way to remove this stuff. FWIW, the flooring is laid on top 
>of some sort
>of fiberboard. I really don't want to leave the old flooring.
>
>Thanks for any advice,
>Drew
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Jul  3 08:10:05 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:10:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c8dd16$815290b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> That said, I think they are also to blame.  My personal belief is that 
> they
> got complacent and greedy.  How much does to cost to make and sell
> something?  I needed a set of impact sockets back in about 88.  I went
> to Sears to purchase a Craftsman set.  They wanted $56.  At that time
> NorthernTools was in the area, and they only wanted about $10 for a
> set.  I'd have gladly paid $15 to $20, but 5 times the price of the cheap
> junk?

Ah but there is the rub.  It does cost a whole lot more to make something 
here in the US.  Just look at the US auto industry as a prime example. 
Medical insurance, retirement, workers compensation, liability insurance, 
property taxes, inventory taxes, permit fees, social security, vacation 
time, sick leave, osha requirements, environmental control devices, etc. 
The list goes on and on.  It costs a fortune to run a company in the US, 
especially if you are manufacturing something.

I've spent some time with the importers down on the shipping piers because 
of my job.  several of Pacific rim companies are making money hand over fist 
with their cheap cars because it costs them less than $2,000 per car to make 
it and drop it off here in the US.  Ford can't even come close when making a 
car here in the US with US labor.

Ah well.  To get back to the good vs cheap tools.  I dearly love how well 
Snap-On screwdrivers work.  But I can't convince myself to spend that kind 
of money on a screwdriver.  Not when a Craftsman screwdriver works quite 
well.  So I'll eschew the paper-mache screwdriver at the Dollar Store in 
favor of the Craftsman (or perhaps Stanley or Proto or Husky), but I really 
don't need the super expensive top of the line Snap-On screwdriver either. 
Especially when it means buying that Snap-On screwdriver prevents me from 
buying any wrenches or car parts because there would be no money left over.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Jul  3 08:23:39 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:23:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] QUALITY TOOLS
In-Reply-To: <61B3E897B4B5450FB708D175F4A841B7@OwnerPC>
References: <61B3E897B4B5450FB708D175F4A841B7@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <ea2385360807030723h1bd31bb9we0edff9bf28014c9@mail.gmail.com>

*Regretfully,  I have some cheap and sorry tools intermixed with my shop
tools.*
*Some were bought for one-time or rare and non-critical use, most fail to
satisfy.*

*The ONE cheap item I have that I feel was a GOOD purchase is a Harbor
Freight 3/4 drive socket set boxed in a good metal case with a rachet and
extension* *for $39.  For the once or twice a year that I actually NEED it,
it serves the purpos well and it's parts are too big to break and it's one
tenth the price of good quality tools.\*
*Tony*
**
*  *

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul  3 09:04:56 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:04:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c8dd16$815290b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080703110456.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 10:10 AM 7/3/2008 -0400, Nolan wrote:



>Ah but there is the rub.  It does cost a whole lot more to make something 
>here in the US.  Just look at the US auto industry as a prime example. 
>Medical insurance, retirement, workers compensation, liability insurance, 
>property taxes, inventory taxes, permit fees, social security, vacation 
>time, sick leave, osha requirements, environmental control devices, etc. 
>The list goes on and on.  It costs a fortune to run a company in the US, 
>especially if you are manufacturing something.

Agreeded.   But, people need jobs to have the money to buy anything.
If we keep going off shore, there won't be any jobs, consiquently no money
to buy anything.  And right now, in the long run, we (the US) won't make
any difference with over 3 billion people in China and India, coming on line.

We have to take care of our selves.  Right now, I look at home prices in
my area.  There is NO way a young couple can afford to buy a home.
A pos house, 1200 sqft, 3 bed rooms 1 1/2 baths and carport is going for 
$250,000!  My place isn't a mansion by any means.  I bought it for $100K
back in 84.  1400 sqft, 2 baths, 3 bed rooms, room over the garage,
1/4 acre, 2 car attached garage is now over $350,000!  We can't afford
to pay the salaries to employees to allow them to own their own home.

Do we need to clean up our environment, definately!  But some of the
gov. regulation is killing us.

>I've spent some time with the importers down on the shipping piers because 
>of my job.  several of Pacific rim companies are making money hand over fist 
>with their cheap cars because it costs them less than $2,000 per car to make 
>it and drop it off here in the US.  Ford can't even come close when making a 
>car here in the US with US labor.

Agreeded.  Here we can blame the unions.  Do we need them?  I think yes!
But they have become their own big business.  On the average, when a group
goes out on strike, they never recoop what they lost.  Our citizens need to
get a fundimental grasp on money.   Witness the sub prime delema we're in.
Greedy people wanting more then they can afford!  

A neighbor of mine worked at the local Ford F150 plant before Ford closed it
last year.  These employees are making obscene amounts of money for what
they do, their skill level, thanks to the Unions.  As you point out, that
is killing 
our manufacturing base in this country.

>I dearly love how well Snap-On screwdrivers work.  But I can't convince
myself 
>to spend that kind of money on a screwdriver.  Not when a Craftsman 
>screwdriver works quite well.

Absolutely.  Especially for those of us that aren't making a living with that
tool.


And I personally much prefer an analog meter to a digital meter when it 
comes to trying to work on a lot of electronics/automotive things.  I can't
stand the lack of a stable reading.  But analog meters are getting harder to
find, and more expensive.

I do have several of the HF digital meters.  When they go on sale for $3.
I buy several.  There is one in every car, one in every tool box, etc.  They
are better than nothing!

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Thu Jul  3 09:13:14 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:13:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807031048300.9807@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, old dirtbeard wrote:
> Once a year or so, I have the need to jump in on a thread with the 
> plaintive plea of "please don't buy cheap tools." Order your stuff from 
> McMaster-Carr, buy Milwaukee electric, Starrett gauges, Simpsom meters, 
> Wilton vices, etc. You will never regret it.
>
> I have a set of Rigid pipe dies that are a joy to use. I am a professor 
> of business -- I am not making my living with these tools, but I truly 
> enjoy using them in may garage.
>
> I know the non-shop talk folks will buy HF detritus, but if the shop 
> talk folks buy the same detritus, who will buy the quality tools and 
> assure that quality tool providers exist?
>
> Buy tools that you enjoy using. Tonight I needed to pull out my 30 
> year-old Simpson 260 meter for some measurements -- what a joy to use 
> this precision instrument.
>
> Life is way too short to use crap tools. You deserve better, boys. HF 
> and the purveyors of junk tools are a blight on the shop talk community. 
> I wish they did not exist. If they are successful, they will be you only 
> choice for tools.

Ok, I let this kinda thing go by the first few times...

I won't disagree at all that HF tools are cheap.

However, sometimes they are also good quality.

As an example, my favorite ratchets (and I've pretty much used them all), 
actually are HF ratchets...

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94586

I've also got a breaker hammer from them:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46935

That was (on sale) not all that much more than renting one, and it tore 
through my garage floor pretty well (around 10 hours of use).

I've also got one of the pipe threading sets that this thread was about, 
and its worked just great for me when I needed to run new gas line, and 
also for a buddy when he ran air lines in his shop.

I've used both a CP 3/8" butterfly impact as well as the cheapo HF 
version... Unless you're looking at the label, you couldn't tell which was 
which.

I've used a Milwaukee sheet rock drill gun back to back with a HF version 
that cost $25 on sale... Both worked just fine.

I used to only buy "name brand" tools, mostly craftsman stuff (usually I'm 
working on cars/bikes/etc.).  Over time I've morphed into my current plan 
of buying the tool first from HF if it doesn't feel like the worst hunk of 
junk ever.  If I use it enough that it breaks or I find shortcomings, I 
buy a name brand tool.  If I don't, I just saved some money.

That's not to say that there can't be some benefits to name brand stuff... 
I _love_ my Milwaukee 18v cordless drill with the keyless ratcheting 
chuck.  Way nicer to use than the "hold the collar" style keyless chuck. 
And I just recently got a Milwaukee cordless sawzall that has a "no tools" 
blade changing mechanism that rocks my world.

If I made my living with my tools and one breaking would cause me serious 
issues or if I was rich, I'd almost certainly have only name brand stuff.

But, like with any blanket statement, saying that "all HF tools are junk" 
or whatever just flat out isn't true.  There's a lot of tools at HF that 
are equivelents to name brand stuff and there's also a lot that aren't 
quite as good, but I'll never appreciate the difference enough to justify 
the extra cost.

Anyway, do what you want to do, and I will also.  :-)

Mark

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Jul  3 09:25:04 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:25:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing sheet vinyl flooring
In-Reply-To: <486CDBF2.5020100@DasRogges.com>
References: <486CDBF2.5020100@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <8DA8AF3C-0EB6-4D94-8B7E-FA71A7F5BFC9@groupwbench.org>

On Jul 3, 2008, at 10:02 AM, Drew Rogge wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Is there any trick to removing sheet vinyl flooring? We're  
> replacing 30 year
> old flooring in the kitchen and the scraper just seems to split the  
> flooring
> in two leaving the a paper backing or something like that. Does  
> anyone know of
> a good way to remove this stuff. FWIW, the flooring is laid on top  
> of some sort
> of fiberboard. I really don't want to leave the old flooring.
>

If it's older than the 80s, get it tested for asbestos if you're  
concerned about such things. You'll need 3 tests- the top layer,  
bottom layer, and the adhesive.

Sometimes heat from a heat gun will soften the adhesive. My adhesive  
was water soluble but I first had to get to it by scraping off the  
top layer.

If I had to do it all over again, I would just cut down to the joists  
and remove the entire subfloor. Much much faster, and could be much  
cheaper depending on what your time is worth. Remember you will  
likely need to patch the scrape marks in the existing subfloor, or  
put down luan etc to level it out.

jim

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Jul  3 11:10:55 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:10:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] good tools, cheap tools
In-Reply-To: <0K3F004FPNVAKNL0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
	<0K3F004FPNVAKNL0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <486D081F.3030203@milleredp.com>

> there is no way to justify the price of the good tool.  The choice is 
> either to own the cheap tool, or not own the tool at all. 

Most of the time, for me, a HF purchase is an alternative to:

a) Renting
b) Buying used
c) Not buying at all

I have a Ridgid drill press.  It's one of those products where Home 
Depot found a Chinese supplier and stuck the Ridgid name on it.  It may 
be better than some it's still not very good.

I'd have happily paid twice as much for something demonstrably better, 
but there's no such thing.  I've gotten reasonable use out of it, but 
it's hard to get it to do a really good job.  So when it comes to 
finding a replacement, I'll be looking for used stuff probably quite old.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll pay more for quality and domestic sourcing 
(that isn't to say that all domestically-sourced products are quality), 
but when a company moves their manufacturing to BFE it comes down to a 
straight price-performance evaluation against the lowest-cost supplier. 
  So far as I can tell Milwaukee didn't cut their prices in half when 
they moved their manufacturing offshore.

John.

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jul  3 11:27:10 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:27:10 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <070320081727.18834.486D0BEE0001F6D10000499222165279669D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>
> And I just recently got a Milwaukee cordless sawzall that has a "no tools" 
> blade changing mechanism that rocks my world.

I have a corded "anniversary model" sawzall wth this chuck.  You are correct:  It is very easy and quick to use.

> There's a lot of tools at HF that 
> are equivelents to name brand stuff and there's also a lot that aren't 
> quite as good, but I'll never appreciate the difference enough to justify 
> the extra cost.

For larger-size end wrenches and impact sockets, I buy the cheap stuff.  The price difference is extreme, and these tools work just fine.  Small-sizes, I go with at least Craftsman.

I bought a 90-degree drill motor on sale from HF for 25 bucks.  Since a name-brand unit is 200 or more, it was a no-brainer.  It still works fine, and may outlive me.  I'm sure not going to wear out 8 of them.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Jul  3 11:26:09 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:26:09 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c8dd16$815290b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
	<001a01c8dd16$815290b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <486D0BB1.20603@milleredp.com>

> I've spent some time with the importers down on the shipping piers because 
> of my job.  several of Pacific rim companies are making money hand over fist 
> with their cheap cars because it costs them less than $2,000 per car to make 
> it and drop it off here in the US.  Ford can't even come close when making a 
> car here in the US with US labor.

Uh, which cheap cars are you talking about?

It costs Toyota and Honda more to make a car in Japan than in the US, 
especially after shipping is factored in.  The high-volume models (or 
what were the high-volume models until the game shifted over the past 
year) are all made in the US.  The Yaris, Prius, etc. were always 
boutique models that Toyota never figured would sell here in high enough 
volume to justify US production.

But - and here's the difference - Toyota brought them in to make sure 
there were plenty of different models in the showroom, whereas Ford was 
content to leave big, big gaps in their product line.  And the market 
changes, and suddenly they've got product to sell and Ford doesn't. 
What makes the Yaris, Prius, etc. so profitable right now isn't that 
they're cheap to build, it's that they're flying out of the showrooms at 
full price.

There's nothing sold in the US and licensed as a normal road vehicle 
that costs less than $2000 to make.  The Koreans may have a modest cost 
advantage over non-union US production, but it's nothing like that big, 
and even a lot of Hyundai production has moved Stateside.

I'd gather the Chevy Aveo is probably the cheapest model out there, but 
it's still NOWHERE like $2000 a unit; it's always cute to go outside the 
US where 'Chevrolet' is GM's sub-Opel nameplate and they've got a full 
line of Korean imports under the Chevrolet brand in the Chevrolet/Opel 
showrooms.

Ford's got a lot of problems, some relate to their bending over for the 
UAW as far back as the early '70s, some relate to their taking the HUGE 
piles of cash they raked in in the '80s and BLOWING it rather than 
investing it back in their business.  Yes, there's cost disincentives to 
manufacturing in the US, which is part of why Ford's future US plans 
seemed to involve them becoming a Mexican automaker with as little US 
presence as they could manage.

We know about Nasser, but it'd be interesting to look more closely at 
Nick Scheele's term at Ford, he presided over all the disastrous 
decisions at Jaguar but managed to get moved upstairs before their 
effects came home to roost.

John.

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Jul  3 11:29:54 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:29:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080703110456.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703110456.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <486D0C92.2050906@milleredp.com>

> A pos house, 1200 sqft, 3 bed rooms 1 1/2 baths and carport is going for 
> $250,000! 

Around here, double that, and you're still in a grubby neighborhood.

John.

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Jul  3 11:34:29 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:34:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <200807031734.m63HYTpL006580@moose.dimebank.com>

> Around here, double that, 

more than double double that in the Bay Area.

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jul  3 11:41:30 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:41:30 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing sheet vinyl flooring
Message-ID: <070320081741.27819.486D0F4A000C631600006CAB22165279669D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Drew Rogge <drew at DasRogges.com>
> Hi all,
> 
> Is there any trick to removing sheet vinyl flooring? We're replacing 30 year
> old flooring in the kitchen and the scraper just seems to split the flooring
> in two leaving the a paper backing or something like that. Does anyone know of
> a good way to remove this stuff. FWIW, the flooring is laid on top of some sort
> of fiberboard. I really don't want to leave the old flooring.

Some variation on what I do for floor tiles should work.  

500 watt work light.  These things have a safety cage on the front.  Flop the liight on the floor facing down so the cage supports the light above the floor.  Head softens the flooring so it does not break when you stick a large scraper under it.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Thu Jul  3 11:46:42 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:46:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject) now favorite ratchet
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC><00a801c8dccf$5d5f5950$2fd07d80@B50SS>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0807031048300.9807@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <008a01c8dd34$c1aeb7b0$0e347d80@B50SS>

Mark said:
>
> I won't disagree at all that HF tools are cheap.
>
> However, sometimes they are also good quality.
>
> As an example, my favorite ratchets (and I've pretty much used them all),
> actually are HF ratchets...
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94586
>

- snip -

That actually looks like a handy ratchet -- I think all of us have that 
"reach for first" ratchet. I have been using this one since the early 1970's 
and just love it. You can spin down the nut/bolt like a screw driver and 
then swivel it to any angle for tight spots. It has a extra long handle that 
gives you the torque you normally would get from a 1/2" drive ratchet.

http://www.amazon.com/SK-Professional-8-Inch-4-Inch-Ratchet/dp/B00061SNCU

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Jul  3 13:15:31 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:15:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
	<001a01c8dd16$815290b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<486D0BB1.20603@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <003701c8dd41$322de360$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> The high-volume models (or
> what were the high-volume models until the game shifted over the past
> year) are all made in the US.

Well now, that's only semi-true.  Yes, there are some Camry's and Corolla's 
made in the US.  Toyota also builds them in Japan, Brazil, Venezuela, 
Canada, Russia, South Africa, Turkey, China, Taiwan, India, Malaysia, and 
Pakistan.

> There's nothing sold in the US and licensed as a normal road vehicle
> that costs less than $2000 to make.

Problem is, it wasn't Jimmy down there on the docks, babbling away because 
he read it in the National Inquirer. It came up in a meeting with a number 
of the executives of North American operations from several of the car 
companies.  I hope you understand that I'm pretty inclined to believe them 
over you.  They sure were quick with the breakdown of their manufacturing 
and operating costs. 

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Jul  3 13:27:39 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:27:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <003701c8dd41$322de360$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
	<001a01c8dd16$815290b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<486D0BB1.20603@milleredp.com>
	<003701c8dd41$322de360$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <486D282B.8000106@milleredp.com>

>> The high-volume models (or
>> what were the high-volume models until the game shifted over the past
>> year) are all made in the US.
> 
> Well now, that's only semi-true.  Yes, there are some Camry's and Corolla's 
> made in the US.  Toyota also builds them in Japan, Brazil, Venezuela, 
> Canada, Russia, South Africa, Turkey, China, Taiwan, India, Malaysia, and 
> Pakistan.

But not for the US market, and the cars that are built in the US are 
typically optimized for the US market (that is, bigger and cheaper.)

The US-market Honda Accord exists outside the US only in Australia, to 
my knowledge, and the US-market Civic is a special super-wide model once 
again not seen much of anywhere else.

>> There's nothing sold in the US and licensed as a normal road vehicle
>> that costs less than $2000 to make.
> 
> Problem is, it wasn't Jimmy down there on the docks, babbling away because 
> he read it in the National Inquirer. It came up in a meeting with a number 
> of the executives of North American operations from several of the car 
> companies.  I hope you understand that I'm pretty inclined to believe them 
> over you.  They sure were quick with the breakdown of their manufacturing 
> and operating costs. 

I'm sorry, it just doesn't scan.  $2000 in LABOR in an Aveo or Kia Rio, 
maybe.   But not $2000 in total labor, materials, and allocated overhead.

John.

From chad at linuxeg.com  Thu Jul  3 15:28:53 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:28:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
References: <002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC><3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net><001a01c8dd16$815290b0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us><486D0BB1.20603@milleredp.com><003701c8dd41$322de360$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<486D282B.8000106@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <0c9601c8dd53$cc72aa70$6101a8c0@tardis>

I wonder if 2 grand covers the cost of complying with federal regulations?
cjad

>>> There's nothing sold in the US and licensed as a normal road vehicle
>>> that costs less than $2000 to make.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jul  3 21:22:56 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 23:22:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Corrugated fiberglass panels. How many screws?
In-Reply-To: <063020080322.8216.4868516D000F28230000201822155538949D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <063020080322.8216.4868516D000F28230000201822155538949D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807032022u16417d37wbcd60b38709f26ce@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 11:22 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> I am putting corrugated fiberglass panels up as a cover over a deck.  I bought the thickest white ones my local Menard's carries.  The finished roof will be about 17 x 8 feet.  This is a simple shed-style roof, with water draining down the corrugations at a 16-degree angle to a (wavy) drip edge.
>
> Each panel is 8 feet long, and covers 2 feet wide when overlapped one wavelength.  I have corrugated strips of wood which purport to match the shape of the fiberglass.  The concept is that one drills a hole through the top of the wave and put a pole-barn screw (with built-in rubber washer) through the top of the wave, through the corrugated strip and into the wood crosspiece below.  I have four such crosspieces.
>
> My question is:  How many screws do I need across each panel?
>
> If I put them three across, that would be a dozen screws through each panel (the overlap section would mean that two panels share the four screws on the edge).  Is this enough?
>
> BTW, I don't intend to cut any of these panels.  The panel length should be correct, and I will make the width come out correct by overlapping more than one wavelength.

We've got panels like this as "windows" in the pole barn.  They're on
the vertical walls, so they don't have to support a snow load.
They're a bit bigger than yours, 8' X 30",  I think.  They've got
three supports, each with three screws through it.  (At least, that's
how the row at eye level is done.  There's another one on the north
wall way high, and I can't see the screws from the ground.  )



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Jul  4 07:40:41 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (fred thomas)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:40:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool set special I saw at Sears...
Message-ID: <000c01c8dddb$8dbd2a20$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Thanks to the "Ohio T/R club


Sears has Craftsman 245 pc. Mechanics Tool Set in 3-Drawer Chest with easy to
read sockets for $138 - $5 coupon SDEALS197 = $133.



You won't see the special price till you add it to your shopping cart - be
sure to use the extra $5 coupon



Thought tools would be an appropriate use of the mailing list



Bruce

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg]

From mattw at webtripper.com  Fri Jul  4 08:05:22 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:05:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tool set special I saw at Sears...
In-Reply-To: <000c01c8dddb$8dbd2a20$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <000c01c8dddb$8dbd2a20$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <1215180322.6114.36.camel@mattw-laptop>

On Fri, 2008-07-04 at 09:40 -0400, fred thomas wrote:
> Thanks to the "Ohio T/R club
> Sears has Craftsman 245 pc. Mechanics Tool Set in 3-Drawer Chest with easy to
> read sockets for $138 - $5 coupon SDEALS197 = $133.
> 

What zip code did you use?
It says out of stock for online orders and ask's for a zip code for in
store pickup, I used 60950.
Then I choose my local store (in stock) and add it to the cart and it is
priced at $170.89
I tried a Columcus OH zip 43201 and had the same result.

Is this the right set?

Craftsman  245 pc. Mechanics Tool Set with Easy-To-Read Sockets in
3-Drawer Chest
Sears item # 00934245000 Mfr.model # 34245 

I'd really like this at the $133 price, I was going to look at the sales
for tools today any way, need to do a brake job and 
have wanted to get a new tool set anyway.

Matt Wehland

From shiples at comcast.net  Fri Jul  4 11:15:18 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:15:18 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <486D0C92.2050906@milleredp.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080703110456.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
	<002901c8dcc3$d59eb2a0$6500a8c0@OFFICEPC>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703082311.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20080703110456.00a8c6f0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080704093821.031cc0e0@mail.comcast.net>

At 10:29 AM 7/3/2008 -0700, John Miller wrote:
> > A pos house, 1200 sqft, 3 bed rooms 1 1/2 baths and carport is going for
> > $250,000!
>
>Around here, double that, and you're still in a grubby neighborhood.

I just checked my neighborhood and it looks like it's becoming more affordable.
Lost 10 percent this year.
http://www.zillow.com/

Everyone familiar with Zillow?  I just found out that my neighborhood has
a significant population of single females working for non-profits.
Not much shop talk around here...

From wulfmgbv8 at comcast.net  Fri Jul  4 15:04:22 2008
From: wulfmgbv8 at comcast.net (Allen L. Wulf)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:04:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <005801c8de19$88b34da0$6401a8c0@allenpc>


From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  8 12:35:14 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:35:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1215194401.11665.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree angle (don't have a tubing bender).  I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with a 5/8" drill, to form a nice, flat platform.
The problem is, I don't know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts square with each other.  Is there a simple way of doing this?

Thanks!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jul  8 12:51:40 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:51:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
In-Reply-To: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4873B73C.2070707@xxiii.com>

Obaa wrote:
> I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
> I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree angle (don't have a tubing bender).  I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with a 5/8" drill, to form a nice, flat platform.
> The problem is, I don't know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts square with each other.  Is there a simple way of doing this?

I've seen racing supply catalogs and ads in Grassroots Motorsports 
peddling fixtures to cut & drill pipe ends for roll cages and stuff. 
Not sure about welding fixtures, but if such a thing exists, the same 
places would probably have it.  SummitRacing.com has darn near 
everything and ships quickly.

   -Wayne

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  8 12:56:15 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:56:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
In-Reply-To: <4873B73C.2070707@xxiii.com>
References: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4873B73C.2070707@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W124FE27282692E7E636EB19A970@phx.gbl>

Not sure if this is close to what you need, but thought it was pretty
interesting, saw it today actually:

http://www.pipemastertools.com/

-PJ

> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:51:40 -0400
> From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
>
> Obaa wrote:
>> I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
>> I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree
angle (don't have a tubing bender). I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with a 5/8"
drill, to form a nice, flat platform.
>> The problem is, I don't know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts
square with each other. Is there a simple way of doing this?
>
> I've seen racing supply catalogs and ads in Grassroots Motorsports
> peddling fixtures to cut & drill pipe ends for roll cages and stuff.
> Not sure about welding fixtures, but if such a thing exists, the same
> places would probably have it. SummitRacing.com has darn near
> everything and ships quickly.
>
> -Wayne

_________________________________________________________________
Its a talkathon  but its not just talk.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul  8 13:16:59 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:16:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
References: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4187B37186BD43138F72094E58BF5CA9@KARL>

Low-tech, but it works for low-volume light aircraft construction and the 
like -- mark a center line on the tubing.  One simple way is to lay it into 
the miter-gauge slot on a table saw, assuming you have a one - and draw your 
line onto the tubing along the edge of the slot.  Otherwise, roll the tubing 
up against something like a board or strip of plywood roughly half the 
tube's diameter, and draw the line from the top of the board.

Karl




> I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
> I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree 
> angle (don't have a tubing bender).  I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with a 
> 5/8" drill, to form a nice, flat platform.
> The problem is, I don't know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts 
> square with each other.  Is there a simple way of doing this?
>
> Thanks!

From arvidj at visi.com  Tue Jul  8 13:30:48 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:30:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
References: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005801c8e131$20509c20$e7281aac@behavioral.com>

> I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
> I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree 
> angle (don't have a tubing bender).  I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with a 
> 5/8" drill, to form a nice, flat platform.
> The problem is, I don't know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts 
> square with each other.  Is there a simple way of doing this?

If I am understanding you problem correctly, it is "how do I establish a 
bottom and top of the tubing so all of my 45 degree cuts will be based on 
this datum.

If that is the problem, is it possible to tack weld something on the tubing 
that would locate the tubing in the cutting device the same way when each of 
the cuts is made - maybe a thin plate to the "bottom" and then the plate 
would set flat on the bench and the therefore all of the cuts would be based 
on the plate? Or maybe attach something to the end of the tubing that would 
establish "the bottom" and then make all of the cuts from the tubing based 
that datum.

Or maybe I just mis-understood the problem. My wife suggests that happens a 
lot.

Arvid 

From drew at DasRogges.com  Tue Jul  8 13:52:46 2008
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 12:52:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
In-Reply-To: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4873C58E.8000203@DasRogges.com>

For the miter cuts at the corners of the platform I'd cut one end at the 45 degree
angle and then hold the flat side of that end up against an angle plate when I clamp
to cut the other end. If you don't have an angle plate then anything that can
establish a plane at 90 degrees from the table would work.

For cutting the fish mouths I would try to come up with some way that I wouldn't
have to unclamp the tube from the vise when I move it to the second end of the
pipe. For shorter pipes this would work better than for longer ones.

Drew

Obaa wrote:
> I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
> I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree angle (don't have a tubing bender).  I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with a 5/8" drill, to form a nice, flat platform.
> The problem is, I don't know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts square with each other.  Is there a simple way of doing this?
> 
> Thanks!

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jul  8 22:34:53 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:34:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
In-Reply-To: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807090023540.12628@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Obaa wrote:
> I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
>
> I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree 
> angle (don't have a tubing bender).  I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with 
> a 5/8" drill, to form a nice, flat platform. The problem is, I don't 
> know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts square with each 
> other.  Is there a simple way of doing this?

Yes.  Use square tubing.

:-)

(actually, I'm somewhat serious on that... Square tubing in general seems 
to be easier to work with, no need to fishmouth tubes, angle cuts are 
easier, etc.)

If you want to use round tube anyway, attach something to the tube that 
will hold it in one orientation against the bench/saw/whatever.  This 
could be as simply as a piece of decently thick sheet metal with a V cut 
in it, tack welded to the pipe.  It doesn't need to be fancy.

If you don't want to tack weld, you could get a set of v-blocks like 
the enco brand ones here: 
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=362&PMCTLG=00

For fish mouthing the tubes, I'd recommend one of two methods...  Either 
just buy a cheap tubing notcher like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42324
(you can find them for less I seem to recall...)

or cheat and use a 4.5" grinder with a cutoff wheel.  Cut a "flat arrow" 
shape at the end of the tube like:

    ___
   /   \
  /     \
  |     |

(ascii art... Use a fixed width font like all the cool kids did back in 
the day).

You'll find that it'll fit reasonably close on the tubing, and chances are 
you want some gaps anyway to help with the welding.  The "perfect fit" 
left by most notchers usually is a little too perfect for welding 
purposes.

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jul  8 23:51:55 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:51:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
In-Reply-To: <737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.23.1215194401.11665.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
	<737776.15156.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807082251t28e62af9ma78362a47057d645@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Obaa <obaa996 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to build a small rack/platform using some 5/8" round tubing.
> I'm planning for it to be rectangular, with the tubes cut at a 45 degree angle (don't have a tubing bender).  I'm going to notch 3 crossbars with a 5/8" drill, to form a nice, flat platform.
> The problem is, I don't know how to align the tubing to keep all the cuts square with each other.  Is there a simple way of doing this?

What about using lugs, as are used on steel (yes, people still make them) bikes?

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jul  9 10:49:37 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:49:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moisture in shed
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080709124937.00a144f8@pop.east.cox.net>

Gang,

Over the last few weeks, I've been working on a shed project.  My old erector 
set, shed (10'W x 8' deep)  had seen it's better days. I purchased a 10'w x
12'd 
Royal Outdoor Products vinyl (PVC) shed.  With the help of my wife, 24 yr
old son, 
and a buddy, we made a foundation, brick floor, and got the shed up.

The back corner of my yard, where the old shed was, and the new shed is, gets 
an inch or so of standing water when it rains.  Consequently we wanted the
base 
build up about 3 to 5 inches before we layed the solid  4" thick cinder
block floor.  

To hold the base in place we laid 2 layers of garden timbers and drove
spikes into 
the ground to hold them in place.  We moved about 40 wheel barrels of dirt,
rock, 
and crush-n-run to build up a base for the floor.  Used some line levels to
make 
sure the base was level, and then some 2"x4"s screwed together to scrag?
(level) 
the base. We used a power tamper to try and pack everything down.  I then put 
down 2 layers of a 10'x25' plastic drop cloth as a vapor barrier.  (Note: I
didn't put 
any holes in the vapor barrier.)  Finally we laid the 160 solid cinder
blocks for the floor.

The walls of the shed sit inside a metal "U" channel that is screwed to the
floor, 
and the inside of the walls are screwed to this channel.  

Before I screwed these "U" channels to the floor, I put a wavy bead of
silicon calk 
on the bottom to seal it to the brick floor.  I also ran a bead of calk on
the outside 
of the "U" channel at the bottom where it is sitting on the brick floor.

After everything was done, I took a bag of sandbox sand and poured it along
the 
cracks between the cinder blocks and swept it into the cracks to fill and
stiffen the 
bricks.

Now to my problem.  When it rained a few days later, I went into the shed
and a 
there was moisture on the bricks.  Not really any standing water, just the
brick was 
damp.  I'm worried that tools and lawnmowers will rust.

So I'm trying to figure out what to do, or what I did wrong.

Yestereday I went out and purchased some 6" wide Al. flashing and made a
skirt to 
go around the base of the shed.  My thought here was to get the water off
of and 
away from the bricks.  I put a bend about 3/4" in along the length of the
metal to 
form an "L".  The short part of the "L" is set in the U channel between it
and the wall.  
The long part of the "L" overhangs the bricks. I ran a bead of calk around
the shed 
at the bend in the "L" to seal the skirt so water didn't get in behind the
skirt.  
Unfortunately, the skirt does not over hang the garden timber frame, but it
does 
overhang the bricks for the floor.

We put up the same shed at my dad's, with the same cinder block floor, with
plastic 
vapor barrier and he doesn't have any problems with moisture in his shed.

We had rain yesterday, and this morning the floor was still wet.  I'm not
sure if the 
moisture was residual or new. 

I can email pictures of the damp floor, and the base/construction of the
shed if anyone 
wants to see pictures of what I'm talking about.

I'm pretty sure I do not have the outer bricks slanting down away from the
shed.  
So it's possible that the rain is come down on the bricks, and then getting
wicked up 
in the cracks.  Which I'm hoping the skirt will eliminate this problem by
deflecting the 
water past the bricks.

So has anyone had a problem like this, and if so what did you do about it?

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Jul  9 14:00:36 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 08:00:36 -1200
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moisture in shed
Message-ID: <487518e4.f4.3855.2854930@ml2.myemail.com>

Ventilation? Does the shed have any (or inadequate)
ventilation?

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC


> When it rained a few days later, I went into the shed and
a 
> there was moisture on the bricks.  Not really any standing
> water, just the brick was damp.  
> 
> So I'm trying to figure out what to do, or what I did
> wrong.
Login from home, work, school.  Anywhere!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jul  9 14:38:26 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:38:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moisture in shed
In-Reply-To: <487518e4.f4.3855.2854930@ml2.myemail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080709163826.00a915e8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 08:00 AM 7/9/2008 -1200, ejrussell at mebtel.net wrote:

>Ventilation? Does the shed have any (or inadequate)
>ventilation?

Eric,

It has ventilation.  2 holes in the back wall about 8" to 12" tall and
about 3" wide.

Don't know if that's adaquat or not.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  9 16:25:39 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:25:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
Message-ID: <636720.80013.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the suggestions!
I'm stuck using round tubing only because the current mounting brackets that the rack will attach to require 5/8" round tubing.  Since the minimum purchase was 12', I figure I might as well make the rest of the rack out of that size tubing...
I was looking for something similar to the clamps, but those blocks are too much $$$ for this project (the rack is to hold a bookbag onto a scooter).  I'm going to try simply tacking a small strip to the tubing such that it doesn't roll.  I'll then be able to make all the cuts relative to the plate.
The tubing is small enough that I should be able to get away with just using a large drill bit and press to notch the tubing.

Thanks!

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Jul  9 20:25:58 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:25:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pressure washer wand?
Message-ID: <48757336.5040208@boicey.com>

I acquired a Simoniz pressure washer, probably a fairly cheap one, CL-11 
and labeled 1300psi.

I don't have the wand, it ends right at the trigger.

However, if I hook it up and run it, it sounds right. And when I pull 
the trigger, the water goes from drooling out of the end to a slight force.

Any idea how I can test it more than that before I blow half it's 
brand-new-price on a wand to try it?

I'm not actually sure if the current Simoniz wands I saw in Canadian 
Tire are right... looking at the part I have, it has an exterior thread 
and a hexagonal interior. I can't tell if this is what the $35 
wand-and-tip kit matches to.

Ideas?

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Wed Jul  9 20:41:04 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:41:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pressure washer wand?
In-Reply-To: <48757336.5040208@boicey.com>
References: <48757336.5040208@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <487576C0.5000009@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Trevor,

See if you can find a way to cap off the outlet of the trigger. If you 
can, drill a 1/16" or so hole in the cap and see if the water squirts 
out really hard. This will show you that there is at least some pressure 
being supplied by the pump.

If you can find a cheap pressure gauge that goes up to above the rated 
pressure of the unit you can possibly adapt it to the outlet and see 
what pressure you get.

You might be able to find an old, broken wand at a power washer repair 
shop that you could use as an adapter to the cap and/or gauge.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Trevor Boicey:
> I acquired a Simoniz pressure washer, probably a fairly cheap one, CL-11 
> and labeled 1300psi.
>
> I don't have the wand, it ends right at the trigger.
>
> However, if I hook it up and run it, it sounds right. And when I pull 
> the trigger, the water goes from drooling out of the end to a slight force.
>
> Any idea how I can test it more than that before I blow half it's 
> brand-new-price on a wand to try it?
>
> I'm not actually sure if the current Simoniz wands I saw in Canadian 
> Tire are right... looking at the part I have, it has an exterior thread 
> and a hexagonal interior. I can't tell if this is what the $35 
> wand-and-tip kit matches to.
>
> Ideas?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1542 - Release Date: 7/9/2008 6:50 AM
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  9 23:24:49 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:24:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pressure washer wand?
Message-ID: <397712.56703.qm@web57013.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

You'll usually need the straight part that attaches out of the 
trigger.
That's what attaches to the spray nozzle on the business
end. Once you find
that part, it should work. The hole on the 
business end is smaller than the
end by trigger.  If it doesn't 
work after that, you could try dismantling
the trigger assemby. 
Chances are there is a rubber o-ring that needs
replacing. 
That's what it was for one I fixed with the same symptoms. 
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


----- Original Message ----
From: Trevor Boicey
<trevor at boicey.com>
To: Shop-Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday,
July 9, 2008 10:25:58 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pressure washer wand?

I
acquired a Simoniz pressure washer, probably a fairly cheap one, CL-11 
and
labeled 1300psi.

I don't have the wand, it ends right at the trigger.
However, if I hook it up and run it, it sounds right. And when I pull 
the
trigger, the water goes from drooling out of the end to a slight force.

Any
idea how I can test it more than that before I blow half it's 
brand-new-price
on a wand to try it?

I'm not actually sure if the current Simoniz wands I saw
in Canadian 
Tire are right... looking at the part I have, it has an exterior
thread 
and a hexagonal interior. I can't tell if this is what the $35
wand-and-tip kit matches to.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul 10 07:21:54 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:21:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Multimaster tool
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>

My wife just called me into the family room to watch an infomercial.

They were demoing a Fein MultiMaster.  Very interesting looking tool,
but expensive at $400.  While we do spend that kind of money on 
a tool, a good compressor, a tool box, etc, it seems like a lot of 
money.

I'm usually very leary of the infomercials.  I remember when I first
saw one for the little Giant ladder.  My wife loved the idea.  When they
had a rep at Costco, the wife broke down and got me one for Father's
day.  It is neat.

Back to the MultiMaster.  Anyone have one, or used one?  What
do you really think of it?  Is it work the money?

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Jul 10 07:28:06 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:28:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Multimaster tool
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <0K3S008UALF47CW0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

This tool is listed at Amazon.  A lot of people wrote reviews there.  

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Thu Jul 10 07:43:30 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:43:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Little Giant - was Multimaster tool
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <48761202.8050501@HorneSystemsTx.com>

John,

I Like the idea of the Little Giant, but I am too frugal (OK, CHEAP) to 
spend that kind of money on a ladder. I found that Werner ladders has a 
very similar 17' ladder (MT-17) for less than $100. I used one and found 
it to be very sturdy. I needed something a taller, so I bought their 22' 
model (MT-22) fir about $180. That was 4 years ago and I have not had 
any problems with it at all. It's rated for 300 Lbs. The only thing I 
don't care for is the weight of it. It weighs in close to 50 lbs, which 
makes it a bit of pain to carry and load into the van. One nice feature 
of the ladder I bought is that it came with an extra pair of hinges so 
that the ladder could be broken down into two 5' step ladders for use 
with a walk plank or as separate ladders. I've used that feature several 
times while working on job sites.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake John T. Blair:
> My wife just called me into the family room to watch an infomercial.
>
> They were demoing a Fein MultiMaster.  Very interesting looking tool,
> but expensive at $400.  While we do spend that kind of money on 
> a tool, a good compressor, a tool box, etc, it seems like a lot of 
> money.
>
> I'm usually very leary of the infomercials.  I remember when I first
> saw one for the little Giant ladder.  My wife loved the idea.  When they
> had a rep at Costco, the wife broke down and got me one for Father's
> day.  It is neat.
>
> Back to the MultiMaster.  Anyone have one, or used one?  What
> do you really think of it?  Is it work the money?
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va             
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1544 - Release Date: 7/10/2008 7:37 AM
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 10 07:49:59 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:49:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Multimaster tool
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W125AB62D7CDC6C0183E25D9A910@phx.gbl>

Wish I would've got one when I installed new flooring, to cut back door jambs
and trim for the new flooring to slide under.  Hard work to do by hand.
Would've also been nice to make quick, accurate cuts in baseboards/trim or
plaster walls, etc. where I had to use a jig or circ saw that made alot of
dust and mess.

I think one downside I've heard is the cost of new blades, but some guys I've
heard have taken to buying cheap trim handsaws, etc. and cut them up, drilled
mounting holes, and used them as replacements.

-PJ



----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:21:54 -0400
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> From: jblair1948 at cox.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Multimaster tool
>
> My wife just called me into the family room to watch an infomercial.
>
> They were demoing a Fein MultiMaster.  Very interesting looking tool,
> but expensive at $400.  While we do spend that kind of money on
> a tool, a good compressor, a tool box, etc, it seems like a lot of
> money.
>
> I'm usually very leary of the infomercials.  I remember when I first
> saw one for the little Giant ladder.  My wife loved the idea.  When they
> had a rep at Costco, the wife broke down and got me one for Father's
> day.  It is neat.
>
> Back to the MultiMaster.  Anyone have one, or used one?  What
> do you really think of it?  Is it work the money?
>
> John

_________________________________________________________________
Its a talkathon  but its not just talk.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul 10 07:55:21 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:55:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Multimaster tool
In-Reply-To: <0K3S008UALF47CW0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080710095521.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 09:28 AM 7/10/2008 -0400, Steven Trovato wrote:

>This tool is listed at Amazon.  A lot of people wrote reviews there.  

Steve,

Thanks for the info.  From the reviews it seems pretty handy especially
if you're doing a lot of home fix ups.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From arvidj at visi.com  Thu Jul 10 08:20:28 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:20:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aligning round tubing for mitering?
References: <636720.80013.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001001c8e298$1a780a00$e7281aac@behavioral.com>

I have seen hole saws as small as 5/8 inch. I actually think I have one.

Food for though. Assemble the 5/8 hole saw with the appropriate pilot bit. 
Use the pilot bit to drill a hole an a flat steel plate. Remove the pilot 
bit from the hole saw and replace it with a smooth rod of the same size. Now 
go back to the flat plate and with the smooth rod in the hole make a small 
groove in the plate with the hole saw. Do not go all the way through or 
compromise the integrity of the material. The pilot hole needs to be quite 
strong.

Now take your tubing, position it on the plate so the hole saw will "do the 
right thing". Tack some material to the plate on both sides of the tubing on 
both sides of the hole such that the material will positively locate and 
hold the tubing relative to the pilot hole. Clamp the jig to the drill press 
table, find the cutting oil and have at it.

Arvid

> The tubing is small enough that I should be able to get away with just 
> using a large drill bit and press to notch the tubing.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul 10 08:50:49 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:50:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Little Giant - was Multimaster tool
In-Reply-To: <48761202.8050501@HorneSystemsTx.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20080710092154.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080710105049.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 08:43 AM 7/10/2008 -0500, Pat wrote:

>I Like the idea of the Little Giant, but I am too frugal (OK, CHEAP) to 
>spend that kind of money on a ladder. I found that Werner ladders has a 
>very similar 17' ladder (MT-17) for less than $100. I used one and found 
>it to be very sturdy. I needed something a taller, so I bought their 22' 
>model (MT-22) fir about $180.


Pat,

I got the Little Giant 22'.  When the did the demo at Costco, you got several
addon's at no cost. :)  I got the wheels, the standing platform, a hanger,
and a couple of other things, but I don't remember what they are or do.
I've only used the ladder once since we got it.

The standing platform is well worth the mone, and really makes working on
the ladder a lot nicer!

Yes I agree with you about the price.  I think we paid right at $300.  The
Little Giant is a little lighter at about 35#.  But I'll tell you, after a
day of
working on something, I had a lot of trouble picking it up and moving it
around.  I guess I'm getting a lot weaker the older I get.  (Now 60.)

But if I had to replace all the ladders I currently have (which the wife
wants 
me to try and sell) a 6' & a 12' A frame, and a 15' and 30' extension ladder
I'm sure I'd end up about with what I've got in the Little Giant.

>One nice feature of the ladder I bought is that it came with an extra pair
of 
>hinges so that the ladder could be broken down into two 5' step ladders for 
>use with a walk plank or as separate ladders. I've used that feature several 
>times while working on job sites.

The Little Giant does the same thing.  Haven't used that feature yet.

Costco, has a smaller, lighter weight, less expensive version of the Little
Giant 
also.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jul 10 09:20:30 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Little Giant - was Multimaster tool
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080710105049.00a8fea8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <803427.58490.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a Little Giant 26' ladder.  I got it to replace
a 28' extension latter that took up way too much space
in the garage.

It is also handy as a step ladder- it lets me easily
and safely reach the 12-foot ceilings of my garage and
sunroom.  The extension ladder was useless for that,
and a regular 6-foot step ladder worked only if I
stood on tiptoes on the very top rung- not a good
idea!

The downside is the cost and the fast that it is
heavy.  Putting it up on the side of the house
extended to its full length requires two fit people,
but I could set up the extension ladder by myself.

Doug


--- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> At 08:43 AM 7/10/2008 -0500, Pat wrote:
> 
> >I Like the idea of the Little Giant, but I am too
> frugal (OK, CHEAP) to 
> >spend that kind of money on a ladder. I found that
> Werner ladders has a 
> >very similar 17' ladder (MT-17) for less than $100.
> I used one and found 
> >it to be very sturdy. I needed something a taller,
> so I bought their 22' 
> >model (MT-22) fir about $180.
> 
> 
> Pat,
> 
> I got the Little Giant 22'.  When the did the demo
> at Costco, you got several
> addon's at no cost. :)  I got the wheels, the
> standing platform, a hanger,
> and a couple of other things, but I don't remember
> what they are or do.
> I've only used the ladder once since we got it.
> 
> The standing platform is well worth the mone, and
> really makes working on
> the ladder a lot nicer!
> 
> Yes I agree with you about the price.  I think we
> paid right at $300.  The
> Little Giant is a little lighter at about 35#.  But
> I'll tell you, after a
> day of
> working on something, I had a lot of trouble picking
> it up and moving it
> around.  I guess I'm getting a lot weaker the older
> I get.  (Now 60.)
> 
> But if I had to replace all the ladders I currently
> have (which the wife
> wants 
> me to try and sell) a 6' & a 12' A frame, and a 15'
> and 30' extension ladder
> I'm sure I'd end up about with what I've got in the
> Little Giant.
> 
> >One nice feature of the ladder I bought is that it
> came with an extra pair
> of 
> >hinges so that the ladder could be broken down into
> two 5' step ladders for 
> >use with a walk plank or as separate ladders. I've
> used that feature several 
> >times while working on job sites.
> 
> The Little Giant does the same thing.  Haven't used
> that feature yet.
> 
> Costco, has a smaller, lighter weight, less
> expensive version of the Little
> Giant 
> also.
> 
> John
> 
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va             
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
> 
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4
> Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71
> Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
> 
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
> 
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jul 10 15:07:47 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:07:47 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Little Giant - was Multimaster tool
Message-ID: <071020082107.20626.48767A2300087EC70000509222120592149D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

I have the old-time version, from when Little Giant was still marketing the Waku ladder made in Germany.  Orange outer ladders, chrome inner ladder.  The standing shelf was a sweetener my dad got when he bought the ladder at the Minnesota state fair.  This has to be 35 years ago. I still use it and trust it much more than any other ladder. Used the thing last week when I put up some fiberglass sunshade panels.

Yes, it is a bit heavy, but with a "paint shelf" rated at 600 pounds and a ladder rated 1000 pounds, it's worth it.  

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2000 Buick Century Limited (everything I never wanted in a car), 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From rtdengr at charter.net  Thu Jul 10 23:14:18 2008
From: rtdengr at charter.net (Bob Dicke)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:14:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Little Giant - was Multimaster tool
In-Reply-To: <071020082107.20626.48767A2300087EC70000509222120592149D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <071020082107.20626.48767A2300087EC70000509222120592149D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <012e01c8e314$f9fb0d90$6401a8c0@RTDHP763n>

I have a new fiberglass Little Giant.  It will configure to a 9' stepladder
and a 19' extension ladder and everything in between.  It is heavy but it
has wheels which makes moving it around much easier.  I like it.

Bob

From jmitch at snet.net  Fri Jul 11 19:21:47 2008
From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:21:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metric conversion
Message-ID: <4878072B.6010201@snet.net>

   I seldom deal with metric threads, but I have a bolt that loosely 
threads into 1/4-28 nut.  Can anyone tell me what size I nut I need to 
order.  Thanks,  John Mitchell

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jul 11 20:00:48 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:00:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Roller bearing race modification
Message-ID: <938F2FCD8F0B49278827BEF1F312D514@KARL>

I'm converting the front wheel bearings on my wife's Midget from precision
thrust ball bearings to roller bearings.  Unfortunately, although Timken has a
listing specifically for the conversion, now that I've driven the outer races
into the first hub (so returning at least one set and just putting ball
bearings back in is not an option), I find that the inner race on the inner
bearing has too small a radius for the axle.  Of course I won't cut the radius
on the axle smaller (asking for a crack).  I can't insert a spacer to make up
the space (just under .040") between the back of the race and the face it's
supposed to butt up against, as there wouldn't be enough axle length if I
did.

Seems straightforward (if slow) to grind the radius larger on the inside of
the inner bearing race, so the beearing can slip all the way up to the
shoulder on the axle.  I don't think there's any chance of removing enough
metal to make a strength difference - the bearing is plenty large there.  As
long as I keep it cool and can get it clean again, is there any reason not to
grind the inside radius larger on the ID of the inner bearing ?

Thanks!
Karl


"Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire."  (I came, I saw, I want to go home.)

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Jul 11 20:21:13 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:21:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Metric conversion
References: <4878072B.6010201@snet.net>
Message-ID: <D39A4A262E4D4465BFA56674F26AA139@ejrussell>

1/4" ~ 6mm
1.0 thread pitch ~ 25.4 threads per inch

try a 6mm X 1.0 nut

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Mitchell"

> I seldom deal with metric threads, but I have a bolt that loosely
> threads into 1/4-28 nut.  Can anyone tell me what size I nut I need 
> to
> order.  Thanks,  John Mitchell

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jul 11 21:10:31 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:10:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Roller bearing race modification
In-Reply-To: <938F2FCD8F0B49278827BEF1F312D514@KARL>
Message-ID: <20080712031031.OKHF4229.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> As 
> long as I keep it cool and can get it clean again, is there 
> any reason not to grind the inside radius larger on the ID of 
> the inner bearing ?

Sounds reasonable to me.  But maybe it would be worth contacting Timken, to
see if they would replace the bearing with the proper radiused version?
They usually (tho not always) come in at least two different radiuses, seems
like you just need the large radius version.

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jul 14 21:48:03 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing/re-using badges
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40806291144n1dff9285q6a2e18fe4f802a56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <338917.53395.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Also, certain paints need to be thinned (or have their
brushes cleaned) with xylene instead of normal paint
thinner.  For example:  Hammerite or Zero-Rust (both
great paints, BTW).

Doug


> Most of the petroleum based adhesive removing
> solvents are built
> around the same basic solvents.  The base is xylene,
> which attacks a
> fair number of adhesives, but not all, and is a very
> effective
> degreaser.  Xylene is typically about half the
> product, ranging up to
> 75% in some.  The next ingredient in most formulas
> is "naptha", which
> is a vaguely defined bunch of hydrocarbons.  The
> good expensive
> products (like 3Ms) are probably using a small
> number of particular
> chemicals; cheaper stuff is using it by density and
> boiling point.
> Napthas are 20-50% of the product, depending.  The
> rest of the stuff
> depends on the particular product.  Common
> ingredients include
> ethlybenzene (which is often present in
> solvent-grade xylene, so it
> may be there in pretty high percentages, even if
> it's not listed on
> the MSDS), benzene, toluene, heptane, and more.
> 
> Depending on where you live, you may be able to get
> xylene at the
> hardware store.  (The home depot here sells it in
> gallon cans, for
> about 10 bucks (well, it's probably 20 these
> days...)) It's worth
> trying before you go for an expensive preparation,
> because it works
> about 80% of the time, and is much cheaper.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 15 10:47:20 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:47:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>

I need to find thinner keyed front axle washers for Jill's Midget.  The 
originals are about .093" or 3/32".

If it's not clear what I'm looking for, I mean the washers with a tab on the 
ID to key into the keyway in the front stub axle, and keep the bearing cone 
from applying turning force to the nut.

I've tried lots of the best FLAPS around here - hardly any places have the 
old orange Dorman drawers any more, and the few that do don't keep them 
stocked.  Everyone is going to the model of AutoZone, AAP, Pimp Boys, etc., 
and mostly rely on the (Dorman) self-serve "HELP"-brand racks with a 
smattering of sometimes useful parts in blister packs.

I've also tried the bearing houses, and specialty fastener houses.  Nobody 
carries them at all.

MMC doesn't seem to carry them either.

Anyone even know what they're officially called ?  I don't remember and 
can't find any reference beyond "washer" in parts manuals.

Thanks!
Karl

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Tue Jul 15 11:05:00 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:05:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
In-Reply-To: <41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
Message-ID: <487CD8BC.4030703@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Karl,

If you can come up with a Dorman part number I'll see what I can find. 
We have a local mom and pop parts house that caries Dorman. If you can't 
find a part number, dimensions will do.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Karl Vacek:
> I need to find thinner keyed front axle washers for Jill's Midget.  The 
> originals are about .093" or 3/32".
>
> If it's not clear what I'm looking for, I mean the washers with a tab on the 
> ID to key into the keyway in the front stub axle, and keep the bearing cone 
> from applying turning force to the nut.
>
> I've tried lots of the best FLAPS around here - hardly any places have the 
> old orange Dorman drawers any more, and the few that do don't keep them 
> stocked.  Everyone is going to the model of AutoZone, AAP, Pimp Boys, etc., 
> and mostly rely on the (Dorman) self-serve "HELP"-brand racks with a 
> smattering of sometimes useful parts in blister packs.
>
> I've also tried the bearing houses, and specialty fastener houses.  Nobody 
> carries them at all.
>
> MMC doesn't seem to carry them either.
>
> Anyone even know what they're officially called ?  I don't remember and 
> can't find any reference beyond "washer" in parts manuals.
>
> Thanks!
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1552 - Release Date: 7/14/2008 6:28 PM
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jul 15 11:22:46 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:22:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
In-Reply-To: <41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
Message-ID: <0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Anyone even know what they're officially called ?

You mean like this?
http://www.etrailer.com/pc-S~165863.htm

"Tang-type spindle washer" is all I know to call them by, but even that
isn't a sure thing.

A quick Google for "spindle washer" turned up several candidates, but mostly
no indications of how thick or even what size the center hole is.
http://www.classicchevy.com/product.asp?pf_id=20-43&dept_id=1052

And these are probably no thinner than what you have
http://www.reliabletool.com/products/washers.htm

Kind of looks like Dorman quit making them; as I found one web site
(Rockauto.com) where Google had a match, but the link shows "no item found".
I also don't see them on Dorman's site
http://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/hardware2006/314-319_Sec11_Part5.pdf

If you have washers that are too thick, some quality time with a grinder
would make them thinner... or if you can source a D-type spindle washer in
the appropriate sizes, you could grind/file the flat into a tang.

Some other thoughts : Why do you suddenly need a thinner washer?  Could it
be something is not seated properly?  Or do Midgets perhaps use a felt inner
seal like the TRs do, that could be holding the inner bearing apart?

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jul 15 11:31:37 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:31:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
In-Reply-To: <41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
Message-ID: <0cf001c8e6a0$a34eb7a0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I need to find thinner keyed front axle washers for Jill's Midget.  The
> originals are about .093" or 3/32".

This might help :
http://tinyurl.com/6qrtdd

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 15 11:39:54 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:39:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
	<0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <5921CBB9704C4F47982F6925135B3C93@KARL>

> If you have washers that are too thick, some quality time with a grinder
> would make them thinner.

Sure - when I used to have access to one I could do that easily.  And if I 
need to, I still might, but now I'd have to pay for the service, and I bet I 
could buy a hundred washers out of a drawer at a parts store for the same 
price.


> Some other thoughts : Why do you suddenly need a thinner washer?  Could it
> be something is not seated properly?  Or do Midgets perhaps use a felt 
> inner
> seal like the TRs do, that could be holding the inner bearing apart?

I left all that explanation out of my first post, having initially written 
it and then edited for brevity.  You asked, so here goes...

Midgets were built with precision, thrust-type ball bearings in the front 
hubs.  There is a spacer between the cones, and the axle nut is torqued 
tight rather than adjusted.  The ball bearings are supposed to be installed 
and just assembled, with no means of adjustment provided.  And once you need 
to remove the bearings, you pretty much have to push on the cone of one or 
the other bearing because the distance piece prevents inside access to the 
outer cup.  The bearings pop apart and are then junk, though lots of people 
do indeed just reassemble and reuse them.  Ball bearings aren't the best for 
wheels anyway - a roller has more contact area and is less critical for 
adjustment.

I converted her Midget to roller bearings, and Timken even notes the 
possibility opf making the conversion by listing the bearings in their 
catalog and directing the converter to discard the spacer and use a thinner 
washer.  I wanted to retain the spacer for the additional rigidity (like 
Jack Drews' modification for TR axles).  I got MGB shims to make the job 
easier, though I wound up needing so much shimming that I made thick shims 
to get it close and then fine-tuned with thin shims.

The final assembly dimensions just happen to take up a bit more space than 
the original setup.  I can and will make the proper groove in the 
castellated nut a bit deeper, but I need more than that.  The nut has just a 
bit more space than necessary to install a cotter pin with no washer.  I 
could just skip the washers, as it's a torqued assembly and if it starts to 
turn something is very wrong anyway, but why not use all the safety I can ?

Thanks !
Karl 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 15 11:49:45 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:49:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall><41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
	<0cf001c8e6a0$a34eb7a0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <3787CDB4A89444ACAEB09333312C7FD9@KARL>

Funny - I searched Dorman's site Sunday night and found nothing...

Anyway, that tells me that 3/32 is just about as thin as they're usually 
made.  Timken just merrily advises to repplace the original 1/8" washer 
(mine were actually 3/32") with a 1/16" washer, if that's no problem.  And 
it sure sounded fine to me.

Guess I'll be spending some quality time with a plain washer and a file.



>> I need to find thinner keyed front axle washers for Jill's Midget.  The
>> originals are about .093" or 3/32".
>
> This might help :
> http://tinyurl.com/6qrtdd

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jul 15 12:12:31 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:12:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
In-Reply-To: <5921CBB9704C4F47982F6925135B3C93@KARL>
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall><41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL><0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<5921CBB9704C4F47982F6925135B3C93@KARL>
Message-ID: <0d0401c8e6a6$59ca7820$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I left all that explanation out of my first post, having initially written
> it and then edited for brevity.  You asked, so here goes...

I did indeed, tho it was mostly intended as a rhetorical question. <g>

Personally, I'd just use a hardened flat washer and let it go at that.  With
the inner race clamped tightly between the nut and spacer, it's going to
take some serious violence for the race to turn.  If you want some extra
insurance against the nut turning after the bearing seizes and rips loose,
you could use something harder than an ordinary cotter pin to locate the
nut.  But since you're already upgrading to a better suited bearing, I
wouldn't feel it was necessary.  Just my $.02, of course.

Sorry, I'm still stalking eBay looking for an affordable magnetic chuck, or
I'd offer to grind it for you.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jul 15 12:13:19 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:13:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
In-Reply-To: <0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
	<0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <487CE8BF.9000401@dimebank.com>

> If you have washers that are too thick, some quality time with a grinder
> would make them thinner... or if you can source a D-type spindle washer in
> the appropriate sizes, you could grind/file the flat into a tang.

Or just some 400 grit and a flat plate - ceramic tiles are great for 
this kind of thing. Use a "figure 8" motion and measure often.

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jul 15 12:17:39 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:17:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
In-Reply-To: <5921CBB9704C4F47982F6925135B3C93@KARL>
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
	<0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<5921CBB9704C4F47982F6925135B3C93@KARL>
Message-ID: <487CE9C3.3010502@dimebank.com>

> The final assembly dimensions just happen to take up a bit more space than 
> the original setup. 

Interesting. I remember doing this conversion on our Morris Minor (same 
front axle setup) and not running into any dimensional problems... I 
ultimately left the spacer out.

I can believe that there are dimensional variations through the years, 
but I'd be a little suspicious of assembly problems, since the Timken 
parts are specifically for this conversion!

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 15 12:19:43 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:19:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
	<0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<487CE8BF.9000401@dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <6790016F30824041A6039E23A3A9C102@KARL>

Ummm, yeah, sure......

I'll do this to take off a thousandth or two on a thrust washer, and in fact 
that's how I turned decent flat washers into relatively true-thickness shims 
for the bearings, but to take off .040" or so ??

Maybe I'm just lazy  ;-)



>> If you have washers that are too thick, some quality time with a grinder
>> would make them thinner... or if you can source a D-type spindle washer 
>> in
>> the appropriate sizes, you could grind/file the flat into a tang.
>
> Or just some 400 grit and a flat plate - ceramic tiles are great for this 
> kind of thing. Use a "figure 8" motion and measure often.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 15 12:37:15 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:37:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
	<0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<5921CBB9704C4F47982F6925135B3C93@KARL>
	<487CE9C3.3010502@dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <977A2991421248EB9A5371CB6D2E83E2@KARL>

It's not as if Timken makes these bearings specifically for this 
application.  They're just what's closest.  I'm sure they'd be less than 
thrilled at the sales volume for BMC car conversions.  Heck - I'm surprised 
they even bother to list the application and have conversion notes too.  And 
if they were made for the application I bet they'd have made them to fit 
exactly rather than advising as they did to use a thinner washer, which is 
indeed the washer I'm looking for.

Maybe the stub axles were longer on your Morris Minor - this is a 1978 
rubber-bumpered Midget.  Apparently the axles are also larger-radiused at 
the shoulder than earlier models too, as I had to modify the radius on the 
bearing cones (between the bore and the face) to allow the cone to slide all 
the way onto the axle, up to the shoulder.  Perhaps that was an effort to 
strengthen the stub axles ??

Also - there used to be SKF bearings (with the same numbers but additional 
suffix letters) recommended for this application, but the bearing houses say 
they're now NLA, replaced by what I got.  Maybe some other brand has a 
closer match to what I need, but I don't want far-East mystery-metal 
bearings.  I wanted Timkens, and this is what they sell today.

But you're all welcome to come on over and make sure I didn't screw up. 
I'll have some cold beer ready, to make the trip to Chicago worthwhile  ;-)

Thanks!
Karl




>
>> The final assembly dimensions just happen to take up a bit more space 
>> than the original setup.
>
> Interesting. I remember doing this conversion on our Morris Minor (same 
> front axle setup) and not running into any dimensional problems... I 
> ultimately left the spacer out.
>
> I can believe that there are dimensional variations through the years, but 
> I'd be a little suspicious of assembly problems, since the Timken parts 
> are specifically for this conversion! 

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jul 15 12:42:00 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:42:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
In-Reply-To: <6790016F30824041A6039E23A3A9C102@KARL>
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL>
	<0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<487CE8BF.9000401@dimebank.com>
	<6790016F30824041A6039E23A3A9C102@KARL>
Message-ID: <487CEF78.5070904@dimebank.com>

Karl Vacek wrote:
> 
> Ummm, yeah, sure......
> 
> I'll do this to take off a thousandth or two on a thrust washer, and in 
> fact that's how I turned decent flat washers into relatively 
> true-thickness shims for the bearings, but to take off .040" or so ??
> 
> Maybe I'm just lazy  ;-)

You can take off more with coarse grit and then finish with fine. It 
will go rather quickly. You won't get uniform thickness with a file, 
mostly because there's no good way to hold such a thin piece flat and 
square to draw-file it.

But I agree with the poster who suggested using a hardened washer w/o 
the tab, if that's easier.

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Tue Jul 15 12:53:39 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:53:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall><41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL><0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><487CE8BF.9000401@dimebank.com><6790016F30824041A6039E23A3A9C102@KARL>
	<487CEF78.5070904@dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c8e6ac$19d65760$8500a8c0@CT>

Karl,

Maybe if you order new washers from Moss they will be made in China which
means thinner and/or softer steel.  .

Mark

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Chris Kantarjiev
  To: Karl Vacek
  Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
  Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers



  Karl Vacek wrote:
  >
  > Ummm, yeah, sure......
  >
  > I'll do this to take off a thousandth or two on a thrust washer, and in
  > fact that's how I turned decent flat washers into relatively
  > true-thickness shims for the bearings, but to take off .040" or so ??

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 15 12:58:23 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:58:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tabbed axle washers
References: <20080715094932.PADR8951.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall><41A8C7D20B334CCD8F8AF504B544A29D@KARL><0ce901c8e69f$66520920$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><5921CBB9704C4F47982F6925135B3C93@KARL>
	<0d0401c8e6a6$59ca7820$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <AF255333D3A04BADAE700A2E3B4C139C@KARL>

Yup - that's what I initially was going to do, and what I'll probably do.  I 
just couldn't believe it would be so difficult to buy tabbed axle washers 
from stock in any FLAPS.

Karl


> Personally, I'd just use a hardened flat washer and let it go at that. 
> With
> the inner race clamped tightly between the nut and spacer, it's going to
> take some serious violence for the race to turn. <snip>
> Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jul 15 19:07:15 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:07:15 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Magnetic chuck from Horrible Freight
Message-ID: <001001c8e6e0$498e3b60$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

Has anyone tried one of these?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=33487

Comments on how well it works, how flat it is, etc.?  The ad says .002"
which is horrible of course, but perhaps it should read .0002" which would
do for my modest needs.  And I would probably take a skim cut off the top
anyway.

Randall
--  

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Tue Jul 15 19:58:27 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:58:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
References: <001001c8e6e0$498e3b60$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <A7B1B4B35D244107ADFB508276790D0C@Dell9200>

Randall and all.

I am in need of a few 5/16 24 x 1 inch, stainless, oval head, phillips or 
posidrive machine screws.  MMC doesn't have them and neither does anyone 
else that I can find on line.  Any tips, Randall you always seem to know 
where to get the good stuff.  I have found some socket heads but they won't 
look right where I need them.

Mark
Nashville

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 15 20:17:47 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:17:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
References: <001001c8e6e0$498e3b60$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<A7B1B4B35D244107ADFB508276790D0C@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <8DD162218B274124B7FF7C14F8085637@KARL>

Here for one ---

I Googled on:
stainless machine screw "oval head" "5/16-24"

NFI
Karl



> Randall and all.
>
> I am in need of a few 5/16 24 x 1 inch, stainless, oval head, phillips or
> posidrive machine screws.  MMC doesn't have them and neither does anyone
> else that I can find on line.  Any tips, Randall you always seem to know
> where to get the good stuff.  I have found some socket heads but they 
> won't
> look right where I need them.
>
> Mark
> Nashville
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jul 15 20:31:19 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:31:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
Message-ID: <200807160231.m6G2VJ61005875@moose.dimebank.com>

Try West Marine?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jul 15 20:36:02 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:36:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
In-Reply-To: <A7B1B4B35D244107ADFB508276790D0C@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <20080716023603.MEGB21138.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I am in need of a few 5/16 24 x 1 inch, stainless, oval head, 
> phillips or posidrive machine screws.  MMC doesn't have them 
> and neither does anyone else that I can find on line.  Any 
> tips, Randall you always seem to know where to get the good 
> stuff.

Sorry, can't do it this time.  Best I can tell, 5/16-24 is simply not a
standard screw thread (and of course bolts don't come with oval heads).  I
checked all my usual sources, and none of them list any kind of machine
screw in 5/16-24.

Randall

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Tue Jul 15 20:42:20 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:42:20 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
In-Reply-To: <20080716023603.MEGB21138.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20080716023603.MEGB21138.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <487D600C.9080808@141.com>

I believe 5/16-24 is a standard size.  Check this site out:

http://www.mmsacc-stainless.com/html/button_head_socket_cap_screws.html

Brad


Randall wrote:
>> I am in need of a few 5/16 24 x 1 inch, stainless, oval head, 
>> phillips or posidrive machine screws.  MMC doesn't have them 
>> and neither does anyone else that I can find on line.  Any 
>> tips, Randall you always seem to know where to get the good 
>> stuff.
>>     
>
> Sorry, can't do it this time.  Best I can tell, 5/16-24 is simply not a
> standard screw thread (and of course bolts don't come with oval heads).  I
> checked all my usual sources, and none of them list any kind of machine
> screw in 5/16-24.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.11/1553 - Release Date: 7/15/2008 5:48 AM

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jul 15 20:48:26 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:48:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
In-Reply-To: <20080716023603.MEGB21138.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <20080716024827.LTKC19640.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

Randall babbled :

> Sorry, can't do it this time.  Best I can tell, 5/16-24 is 
> simply not a standard screw thread 

I'm sorry; what I meant was a standard _machine_ screw thread.  Of course
5/16NF is a standard thread for other types of screws, like SHCS.  But for
every source I looked at, fine thread machine screws stopped abruptly at
1/4", no matter what head, material or length; even when they had coarse
thread machine screws to 3/8".

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jul 15 20:48:47 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:48:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
Message-ID: <200807160248.m6G2mlRo031847@moose.dimebank.com>

> Best I can tell, 5/16-24 is simply not a
> standard screw thread 

5/16-24 is from the UNF series. But it doesn't appear to be a readily
available size for machine screws, just cap screws.

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Tue Jul 15 21:31:34 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:31:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
References: <001001c8e6e0$498e3b60$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<A7B1B4B35D244107ADFB508276790D0C@Dell9200>
	<487D65A3.5060804@sitestar.net>
Message-ID: <7A6830E9340B49E1A7D3264F4FF4E349@Dell9200>

Bingo!  Thanks Dave, I have them on the way.

Mark


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Russell" <rusd at sitestar.net>
To: "Mark" <mark at nashvilletn.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed



Try here,

http://www.dmpolish.com/catalog.php?main_page=index&cPath=198_295_148&sort=20a&page=8&zenid=9d08d4ca0bb0a20153653bb5cc8db0c2

Dave

Mark wrote:

>Randall and all.
>
>I am in need of a few 5/16 24 x 1 inch, stainless, oval head, phillips or
>posidrive machine screws.  MMC doesn't have them and neither does anyone
>else that I can find on line.  Any tips, Randall you always seem to know
>where to get the good stuff.  I have found some socket heads but they won't
>look right where I need them.
>
>Mark
>Nashville

From bill at gingerich.us  Tue Jul 15 21:31:55 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:31:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed
In-Reply-To: <A7B1B4B35D244107ADFB508276790D0C@Dell9200>
References: <001001c8e6e0$498e3b60$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<A7B1B4B35D244107ADFB508276790D0C@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <312201D6DCCD420F9912F4CD3E6B6AED@shack2>

Mark,

Try this.

http://www.dmpolish.com/catalog.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3581

BillG
Newalla, OK



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Mark
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:58 PM
To: Randall; Shop-Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Machine Screw shopper needed

Randall and all.

I am in need of a few 5/16 24 x 1 inch, stainless, oval head, phillips or 
posidrive machine screws.  MMC doesn't have them and neither does anyone 
else that I can find on line.  Any tips, Randall you always seem to know 
where to get the good stuff.  I have found some socket heads but they won't 
look right where I need them.

Mark
Nashville

From smarc at smarc.net  Thu Jul 17 14:56:20 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:56:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] blast cabinet media
Message-ID: <487FB1F4.8090004@smarc.net>

Hi -

I have a large blast cabinet in my garage. I've been using glass bead in 
it only because I got a 50 lb bag as a freebie. Anyway, the media is a 
couple years old, and probably needs to be changed out, doesn't seem to 
cut very well any more. Also time for a new gun...

Any disposal issues with used media?

My cabinet is a bit on the messy side - Although I like the finish that 
glass bead provides, are other media less messy?
-- 
Marc
smarc at smarc.net     	DISCLAIMER: Do not write below this line. Void 
where prohibited. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. 
Batteries not included. Simulated picture. Do not use while operating a 
motor vehicle or heavy equipment. May cause drowsiness. No 
user-serviceable parts inside. Your cancelled check is your receipt. 
Sign here without admitting guilt. No purchase necessary. Contestants 
have been briefed on some questions before the show. First pull up, then 
pull down. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or 
consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to 
perform. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. This supersedes all 
previous notices.

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Thu Jul 17 17:21:07 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:21:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] blast cabinet media
In-Reply-To: <487FB1F4.8090004@smarc.net>
References: <487FB1F4.8090004@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <487FD3E3.6000203@verizon.net>

Unless you have been using it exclusively to blast lead based paint, I 
doubt if there would be any disposal issues; it's mostly glass and rust, 
I imagine.  A lot of the people that got in trouble with disposing of 
spent media were shipyards, and they were blasting off toxic 
anti-fouling paint and lots of other nasty stuff, in very large 
quantities. 

I have my shop vacuum connected to the dust port of my blasting 
cabinet.  It does suck up a little of the media (glass beads, too) but 
it keeps things much cleaner and a lot easier to see what I'm blasting.  
I'm going straight into the shop vac without a water trap or anything 
else to catch the media, so I'll probably eventually kill the shop vac, 
but it's a 30 year old Craftsman that my ex gave me for Christmas long, 
long ago, so when it dies I'll get a new one and build a wet media 
trap.  The type of media you use depends on what it is you're blasting, 
but I have found that glass beads are a good choice for general 
car/motorcycle/hobby use.  Any media is going to be messy. 

Dave C

Marc wrote:
> Hi -
>
> I have a large blast cabinet in my garage. I've been using glass bead in 
> it only because I got a 50 lb bag as a freebie. Anyway, the media is a 
> couple years old, and probably needs to be changed out, doesn't seem to 
> cut very well any more. Also time for a new gun...
>
> Any disposal issues with used media?
>
> My cabinet is a bit on the messy side - Although I like the finish that 
> glass bead provides, are other media less messy?

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jul 17 18:26:31 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:26:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning out fuel tank
Message-ID: <8EA439BEF79340B1979A5B73507917A5@DesktopPC>

I'm trying to clean out the very small sump at the bottom of
an antique (1914) fuel tank.  The tank is fairly clean, has been
coated with the cream colored coating back in the 1980s.  It's
also in the car and cannot be removed without removing the body
from the frame.  The very small sump is cast iron and is sweated
onto the galvanized steel gas tank shell.  The sump has a bottom
drain that unfortunately is plugged and sealed;  it has a side
port where the fuel shut-off is located. The shut-off valve is 
remotely
operated via a long shaft that exits to the side, near the running 
board
and the valve is currently removed from the car.

There  appears to be some metallic and/or non-metallic debris in the 
bottom
of the sump (sump outside diameter is about the size of a hot dog bun
and about 1/2 as long) and while the tank is empty and the drain valve 
is
out, I'd like to clean it out.  I'm leery of using a vacuum due to 
fumes
and possible ignition.  A magnet would simply stick to the side of the
sump (the 4" diameter fill cover is off-set and it's not a straight 
shot down
into the sump) when trying to remove any magnetic material.

I'm toying with the following ideas.
1.  Use a flexible hose and some sort of angled air fitting that would
"pull a suction" or siphon to pull the debris up from the sump and 
exit
it from the sump to the outside.  Essentially a non-electric vacuum

2.  Insert a magnet, inside a piece of PVC pipe, and try to remove any
magnetic material while at the same time keep the magnet from 
"sticking"
to the cast iron sump.

Any suggestions?


Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul 17 19:00:19 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:00:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lamp question
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20080717205536.01f13b98@cox.net>

We have an old brass lamp, over 30 yrs old.  My wife wanted me to modify it.
No problem I thought.  But when I went to try and get a harp, yoke, and new
socket, I found that they had changed the standard for the rods and sockets.

The new standard is 1/8 IP.  Anybody know what that is or means?
I know it doesn't appear to cross to any usual nut or bolt.

The old rod was about 1/2" in diameter and a 1/2" x 20 fits very loosely.
So next question, anyone know what the old standard was?

My wife managed to find an adapter at an old lamp shop in town the other
day.  It's like a union that has 1/8" IP on one end and the old standard on
the other end.  You won't find these at most of the local hardware 
stores though.
We tried. :)

TIA

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Jul 17 19:11:43 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:11:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lamp question
References: <6.2.5.6.0.20080717205536.01f13b98@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B7FB208FEF8E4BF6886B9DCD76C4D07E@KARL>

Lamps usually use a running pipe thread, like the 1/8" Iron Pipe (that's 
what the IP stands for) that is most typical today.

What you had sounds like it *might* be 1/4" pipe.  it has a major diameter 
of 0.540 - just over 1/2", though its pitch is 18 TPI rather than the 20 
pitch you tried.

There're also a (fairly rare) 3/8" pipe size that's occasionally encountered 
in lamps or elsewhere - like old electrical stuff.  Also 18 TPI.

An old hardware store or a good lamp repair shop should be able to fix you 
up - or Google it...

Karl



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:00 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lamp question


> We have an old brass lamp, over 30 yrs old.  My wife wanted me to modify 
> it.
> No problem I thought.  But when I went to try and get a harp, yoke, and 
> new
> socket, I found that they had changed the standard for the rods and 
> sockets.
>
> The new standard is 1/8 IP.  Anybody know what that is or means?
> I know it doesn't appear to cross to any usual nut or bolt.
>
> The old rod was about 1/2" in diameter and a 1/2" x 20 fits very loosely.
> So next question, anyone know what the old standard was?
>
> My wife managed to find an adapter at an old lamp shop in town the other
> day.  It's like a union that has 1/8" IP on one end and the old standard 
> on
> the other end.  You won't find these at most of the local hardware
> stores though.
> We tried. :)
>
> TIA
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Jul 17 19:56:19 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:56:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning out fuel tank
References: <8EA439BEF79340B1979A5B73507917A5@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <B987D41B3CAC45DB87DCA9239D7CD7EA@ejrussell>

----- Original Message ----- 

> The sump has a bottom drain that unfortunately is plugged and sealed

This drain plug cannot be unsealed?

> I'm toying with the following ideas.
> 1. Use a flexible hose and some sort of angled air fitting that
> would "pull a suction" or siphon to pull the debris up from the sump

Any of these work?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95468

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97014

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jul 17 20:46:36 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:46:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning out fuel tank (Round II)
In-Reply-To: <8EA439BEF79340B1979A5B73507917A5@DesktopPC>
References: <8EA439BEF79340B1979A5B73507917A5@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <A395FCCD1B0F4C63AF3B037D756CA3F8@DesktopPC>

To reply and clarify:
1.  Interesting comments about air powered vacuum.  Will check out.
2.  Don't want to blow out with compressed air because it would 
probably
just create a mess in the tank and I can't reach parts of the tank due 
to partial baffles.
3.  Tank has been "dry" for 24 hours, so concern of fumes is seemingly 
justified.
4.  Difficult to "flush out" with water due to baffles and the fact 
that it is
firmly attached to the body and under the driver's seat.
5.  Magnet idea is still thrashing around in my head.
6.  Comment about tapered plug valve being hard to turn is valid.
I'm getting ready to substitute with a new 1/4 turn ball valve from 
McMaster Carr.
7.  Can't open up the bottom plug without risk of damage and I'm 
needing to
get this back on the road within 9 days.
8.  My side exit on the "bulb" is small and of not much help in 
cleaning out.
9.  Flushing is not a solution (pun intended).
10.  No trips to the radiator shop.  Inside of tank is basically clean 
and coated.
Merely trying to clean out the "bulb" or "sump".  Besides, I'm not 
going to
remove the body from the chassis to get at the gas tank.
11.  Oil suction gun provides minimum amount of vacuum duration.  Not 
suitable.
The engine cleaning gun is an air/solvent blaster.  The only suction 
is for solvent
pickup.  Not suitable.

Super thanks guys.  Keep coming with the suggestions.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 5:26 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning out fuel tank


> I'm trying to clean out the very small sump at the bottom of
> an antique (1914) fuel tank.  The tank is fairly clean, has been
> coated with the cream colored coating back in the 1980s.  It's
> also in the car and cannot be removed without removing the body
> from the frame.  The very small sump is cast iron and is sweated
> onto the galvanized steel gas tank shell.  The sump has a bottom
> drain that unfortunately is plugged and sealed;  it has a side
> port where the fuel shut-off is located. The shut-off valve is
> remotely
> operated via a long shaft that exits to the side, near the running
> board
> and the valve is currently removed from the car.
>
> There  appears to be some metallic and/or non-metallic debris in the
> bottom
> of the sump (sump outside diameter is about the size of a hot dog 
> bun
> and about 1/2 as long) and while the tank is empty and the drain 
> valve
> is
> out, I'd like to clean it out.  I'm leery of using a vacuum due to
> fumes
> and possible ignition.  A magnet would simply stick to the side of 
> the
> sump (the 4" diameter fill cover is off-set and it's not a straight
> shot down
> into the sump) when trying to remove any magnetic material.
>
> I'm toying with the following ideas.
> 1.  Use a flexible hose and some sort of angled air fitting that 
> would
> "pull a suction" or siphon to pull the debris up from the sump and
> exit
> it from the sump to the outside.  Essentially a non-electric vacuum
>
> 2.  Insert a magnet, inside a piece of PVC pipe, and try to remove 
> any
> magnetic material while at the same time keep the magnet from
> "sticking"
> to the cast iron sump.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA
snip 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jul 18 00:05:02 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:05:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning out fuel tank
In-Reply-To: <8EA439BEF79340B1979A5B73507917A5@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <20080718060502.WRNZ19640.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> 1.  Use a flexible hose and some sort of angled air fitting 
> that would "pull a suction" or siphon to pull the debris up 
> from the sump and exit it from the sump to the outside.  
> Essentially a non-electric vacuum

I have one of those "air powered vacuum pumps" (which in reality is just a
venturi), similar to
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96677

Then I took a Mason (canning) jar and soldered two pieces of 1/4" soft
copper tubing to the lid.  Add some tubing, and it makes a small, explosion
proof, vacuum cleaner.  The pump won't handle much volume, but you could
probably use 3/8" line instead of 1/4" if necessary.

Thin wall brass tubing from the hobby store makes a good probe.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Jul 18 07:08:30 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:08:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Lamp question
In-Reply-To: <B7FB208FEF8E4BF6886B9DCD76C4D07E@KARL>
References: <6.2.5.6.0.20080717205536.01f13b98@cox.net>
	<B7FB208FEF8E4BF6886B9DCD76C4D07E@KARL>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20080718090746.01e7ab78@cox.net>

At 09:11 PM 7/17/2008, Karl Vacek wrote:

>Lamps usually use a running pipe thread, like the 1/8" Iron Pipe 
>(that's what the IP stands for) that is most typical today.
>
>What you had sounds like it *might* be 1/4" pipe.  it has a major 
>diameter of 0.540 - just over 1/2", though its pitch is 18 TPI 
>rather than the 20 pitch you tried.
>
>There're also a (fairly rare) 3/8" pipe size that's occasionally 
>encountered in lamps or elsewhere - like old electrical stuff.  Also 18 TPI.
>
>An old hardware store or a good lamp repair shop should be able to 
>fix you up - or Google it...

>Karl,


Thanks for the info.  That's what I was looking for.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Jul 18 10:24:28 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:24:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cleaning out fuel tank (Round II)
In-Reply-To: <A395FCCD1B0F4C63AF3B037D756CA3F8@DesktopPC>
References: <8EA439BEF79340B1979A5B73507917A5@DesktopPC>
	<A395FCCD1B0F4C63AF3B037D756CA3F8@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7970197EE56@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Steve Hammatt wrote:
>
> The engine cleaning gun is an air/solvent
> blaster.  The only suction is for solvent
> pickup.  Not suitable.

I use mine for soapy water to wash the outside of the engine...

Anyway, if you poured some gasoline into the tank, then used the engine
cleaning gun to suck it back out, it would probably do a decent job of
sucking out the contaminants along with the gas.  You don't want to use
water or solvent in the tank, but gas certainly isn't going to harm
anything.  :)

It would work even better if you used the Mason jar trick in between the
pickup and the gun to keep junk form plugging up the venturi in the gun.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From smarc at smarc.net  Fri Jul 18 14:33:03 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:33:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
Message-ID: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>

I needed a couple gallons of hydraulic fluid for my new lift. The fluid 
spec'ed was "10 weight common hydraulic fluid (AW32 or AW46)".

I asked a friend to pick some up for me as he was right near the place. 
What he brought me is labeled "AW Hydraulic Oil ISP 46".

Are the terms 'oil' & 'fluid' used interchangeably? Is this the right 
stuff?  What do I need to know?

-- 
Marc
smarc at smarc.net     	DISCLAIMER: Do not write below this line. Void 
where prohibited. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. 
Batteries not included. Simulated picture. Do not use while operating a 
motor vehicle or heavy equipment. May cause drowsiness. No 
user-serviceable parts inside. Your cancelled check is your receipt. 
Sign here without admitting guilt. No purchase necessary. Contestants 
have been briefed on some questions before the show. First pull up, then 
pull down. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or 
consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to 
perform. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. This supersedes all 
previous notices.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 15:00:33 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:00:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:
> I needed a couple gallons of hydraulic fluid for my new lift. The fluid
> spec'ed was "10 weight common hydraulic fluid (AW32 or AW46)".
>
> I asked a friend to pick some up for me as he was right near the place.
> What he brought me is labeled "AW Hydraulic Oil ISP 46".
>
> Are the terms 'oil' & 'fluid' used interchangeably? Is this the right
> stuff?  What do I need to know?

AW means "anti wear" 46 is the ISO viscosity rating (46 centistokes at
40C.  What's a centi-stoke?  who knows.)  What you've got is fine.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 15:24:22 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:24:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360807181424k4f591f12x2ff477f5379120c9@mail.gmail.com>

*Why that's one hundredth of a Stokes, o' course!  A measure of viscosity,
water has a stokes rating of about 1.000;  that's why I always drink beer.*
*Tony*


>
> AW means "anti wear" 46 is the ISO viscosity rating (46 centistokes at
> 40C.  What's a centi-stoke?  who knows.)  What you've got is fine.
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>  _______________________________________________

From smarc at smarc.net  Fri Jul 18 15:31:51 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:31:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>

Thanks for that info. Does that viscosity number factor like regular 
oil? In other words, higher number, thinner oil?  My concern is more for 
the  operation of the lift  considering the range of temperatures seen 
in the garage from about 40F to 90F.

David Scheidt wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:
>   
>> I needed a couple gallons of hydraulic fluid for my new lift. The fluid
>> spec'ed was "10 weight common hydraulic fluid (AW32 or AW46)".
>>
>> I asked a friend to pick some up for me as he was right near the place.
>> What he brought me is labeled "AW Hydraulic Oil ISP 46".
>>
>> Are the terms 'oil' & 'fluid' used interchangeably? Is this the right
>> stuff?  What do I need to know?
>>     
>
> AW means "anti wear" 46 is the ISO viscosity rating (46 centistokes at
> 40C.  What's a centi-stoke?  who knows.)  What you've got is fine.
>
>   

-- 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 16:10:45 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:10:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807181510o29b5155h58d5372453622629@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:
> Thanks for that info. Does that viscosity number factor like regular oil? In
> other words, higher number, thinner oil?  My concern is more for the
> operation of the lift  considering the range of temperatures seen in the
> garage from about 40F to 90F.
>

ISO viscosity is an actual, directly meaningful number (viscosity in
centistokes, (which despite my earlier quip, is a real unit of
viscosity, well understood by tribologists), at a specified
temperature.).  Higher numbers are higher viscosity.  SAE viscosity is
an index into a specification, not a direct reading of viscosity.
Consider the case of lettered drill bits.  You know a C drill is
bigger than a B one, but you don't know it's actual size, without a
chart.  SAE viscosities are the same sort of thing.  There, are, it
happens two different sets in use, which overlap in viscosity, but not
in numbers.  Numbers less than 60 are motor oil, numbers above 60 are
gear oil.  90 wt gear oil is about the same viscosity as 50 wt motor
oil, and they're both ISO 18 oils.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Jul 18 16:15:07 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:15:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40807181510o29b5155h58d5372453622629@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181510o29b5155h58d5372453622629@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <488115EB.4030600@dimebank.com>

I posted a long article that I wrote many years back, but it's been embargoed by 
the list manager because it's too long.

Go to http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal/faq.txt and look at item 33.

Best,
chris

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jul 18 16:19:03 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:19:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net><2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>

>  Does that viscosity number factor like regular
> oil? In other words, higher number, thinner oil?

Er, no, in both cases a higher number means a thicker oil (at a constant
temperature).  

But "10 weight" covers a range of centistokes values, and apparently 46 (at
40C) is within range, so the oil you have should be fine.  Pour point of ISO
46 is under -20F, so you should be fine @ 40F.

Randall

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Fri Jul 18 16:35:08 2008
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:35:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
Message-ID: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>

I am rinsing my antique fuel tank with MEK to clean it out and prepare it for
sealing.  Two questions: First, the tank has a leak in one of the seams about
2/3 of the way up.  It's not too bad but still needs to be fixed.  I can't get
to the spot on the inside.  Is there a putty or caulk that I can use on the
outside.  Secondly, it's  a 12 gal tank and I have 10 gal of MEK.  Can I
swoosh it around or do I need to get 2 gal more to do a decent job ?
Thanks,
Dan

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jul 18 16:39:34 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:39:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] blast cabinet media
In-Reply-To: <487FB1F4.8090004@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <825426.50479.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

With my cabinet, I have to add new glass beads pretty
regularly to replace what has gotten destroyed
and sucked up by my stop-vac dust collector.
Over a couple of years, I've probably replaced all
the media about twice, but I have never had to
actually remove or dispose of any (except for
emptying the dust collector, of course).

Is your dust collector giving enough airflow through
the cabinet?  If the airflow from the gun were to
exceed the airflow into the dust collector, the
dusty air would get backed up and escape through the
air inlet.

Maybe the beads are OK, and your gun (not just the
tip) has gotten worn?

As for disposal, if you could have thrown away the
parts you blasted, I guess you could also throw away
the used media.

I once added a mix of glass beads and aluminum oxide. 
It cut somewhat faster, but not enough to justify the
extra cost.  Also, it is much more abrasive on any
moving parts, like the gun trigger or door parts.

BTW, you can see photos of my cabinet at:
31ford.dougbraun.com

Doug

--- Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:

> Hi -
> 
> I have a large blast cabinet in my garage. I've been
> using glass bead in 
> it only because I got a 50 lb bag as a freebie.
> Anyway, the media is a 
> couple years old, and probably needs to be changed
> out, doesn't seem to 
> cut very well any more. Also time for a new gun...
> 
> Any disposal issues with used media?
> 
> My cabinet is a bit on the messy side - Although I
> like the finish that 
> glass bead provides, are other media less messy?
> -- 
> Marc
> smarc at smarc.net     	DISCLAIMER: Do not write below
> this line. Void 
> where prohibited. No postage necessary if mailed in
> the United States. 
> Batteries not included. Simulated picture. Do not
> use while operating a 
> motor vehicle or heavy equipment. May cause
> drowsiness. No 
> user-serviceable parts inside. Your cancelled check
> is your receipt. 
> Sign here without admitting guilt. No purchase
> necessary. Contestants 
> have been briefed on some questions before the show.
> First pull up, then 
> pull down. Not responsible for direct, indirect,
> incidental or 
> consequential damages resulting from any defect,
> error or failure to 
> perform. Freshest if eaten before date on carton.
> This supersedes all 
> previous notices.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From aztvr at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 18 16:52:19 2008
From: aztvr at yahoo.com (Jim S.)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
In-Reply-To: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <464003.31373.qm@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

These are products comonly used and recommended by the antique car crowd:
 
I have used Bill Hirsch gas tank sealer on my TR3 and had many years of good
results (never leaked again). 
I bought the POR-15 gas tank sealer for another vehicle last year and it
worked.  It was recommended by several people in a thread on the subject on
the TR6 list.   I liked the Bill Hirsch product better; but, I don't have any
good reason why. 
One other person in that TR6 thread recommended Red-Kote fuel tank liner.
 
I haven't ever heard of using MEK to clean out a fuel tank though.  I wouldn't
think that uou would need very much if you are trying to disolve "stuff."  I
would have thought a gallon would be plenty if it is really needed.
 
Jim
 


--- On Fri, 7/18/08, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)
<coles at colesnurseries.com> wrote:

From: Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) <coles at colesnurseries.com>
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 3:35 PM

I am rinsing my antique fuel tank with MEK to clean it out and prepare it for
sealing.  Two questions: First, the tank has a leak in one of the seams about
2/3 of the way up.  It's not too bad but still needs to be fixed.  I
can't get
to the spot on the inside.  Is there a putty or caulk that I can use on the
outside.  Secondly, it's  a 12 gal tank and I have 10 gal of MEK.  Can I
swoosh it around or do I need to get 2 gal more to do a decent job ?
Thanks,
Dan
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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 16:56:06 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:56:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
In-Reply-To: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
References: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807181556p5af1d305la5bfa187757a0473@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries
Inc) <coles at colesnurseries.com> wrote:
> I am rinsing my antique fuel tank with MEK to clean it out and prepare it for
> sealing.  Two questions: First, the tank has a leak in one of the seams about
> 2/3 of the way up.  It's not too bad but still needs to be fixed.  I can't get
> to the spot on the inside.  Is there a putty or caulk that I can use on the
> outside.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  You can use epoxies to seal gas tanks, but
depending on how it's leaking, and why, you may or may not be able to
get it to stop.  "Antique tank" probably means brazed steel tank.
Brazed seams can leak on the outside far from where they're leaking on
the inside, with fuel being wicked along by capillary action.  There
are companies that specialize in restoring tanks like that.  The usual
method is bake the tank (to remove all traces of gasoline), cut a
hole, sandblast the in and out sides of the tank, coat the tank with
an epoxy, bake it again, weld the hole up, coat the outside.  With a
coat of paint, it lloks stock.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Jul 18 17:04:16 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:04:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
References: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
	<2400a5d40807181556p5af1d305la5bfa187757a0473@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c8e92a$9b2d61c0$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

EXTREMELY DANGEROUSUS welding on a gas tank, please make sure you know what 
you are doing.  "FT"
==============================================================================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: "Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)" <coles at colesnurseries.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak


> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries
> Inc) <coles at colesnurseries.com> wrote:
>> I am rinsing my antique fuel tank with MEK to clean it out and prepare it 
>> for
>> sealing.  Two questions: First, the tank has a leak in one of the seams 
>> about
>> 2/3 of the way up.  It's not too bad but still needs to be fixed.  I 
>> can't get
>> to the spot on the inside.  Is there a putty or caulk that I can use on 
>> the
>> outside.
>
> Maybe.  Maybe not.  You can use epoxies to seal gas tanks, but
> depending on how it's leaking, and why, you may or may not be able to
> get it to stop.  "Antique tank" probably means brazed steel tank.
> Brazed seams can leak on the outside far from where they're leaking on
> the inside, with fuel being wicked along by capillary action.  There
> are companies that specialize in restoring tanks like that.  The usual
> method is bake the tank (to remove all traces of gasoline), cut a
> hole, sandblast the in and out sides of the tank, coat the tank with
> an epoxy, bake it again, weld the hole up, coat the outside.  With a
> coat of paint, it lloks stock.
>
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 17:19:17 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:19:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
	<763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360807181619q7a9a8367p94c475c1386e26e7@mail.gmail.com>

  centiStokes
(cSt) Saybolt Second
Universal
(SSU, SUS) Typical liquid 1 31 Water (20oC) 4.3 40 Milk
SAE 20 Crankcase Oil
SAE 75 Gear Oil  15.7 80 No. 4 fuel oil 20.6 100 Cream 43.2 200 Vegetable
oil 110 500 SAE 30 Crankcase Oil
SAE 85 Gear Oil 220 1000 Tomato Juice
SAE 50 Crankcase Oil
SAE 90 Gear Oil 440 2000 SAE 140 Gear Oil 1100 5000 Glycerine (20oC)
SAE 250 Gear Oil 2200 10,000 Honey 6250 28,000 Mayonnaise 19,000 86,000 Sour
cream

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 17:33:32 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:33:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
In-Reply-To: <006b01c8e92a$9b2d61c0$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
	<2400a5d40807181556p5af1d305la5bfa187757a0473@mail.gmail.com>
	<006b01c8e92a$9b2d61c0$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807181633v197f12a4y7188e548835d97a1@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 7:04 PM, FRED E THOMAS
<frede.thomas2 at verizon.net> wrote:
> EXTREMELY DANGEROUSUS welding on a gas tank, please make sure you know what
> you are doing.  "FT"

Please read for comprehension.  I suggested taking the tank to a
specialist, and described their procedure.
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jul 18 17:56:11 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:56:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
In-Reply-To: <006b01c8e92a$9b2d61c0$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest><2400a5d40807181556p5af1d305la5bfa187757a0473@mail.gmail.com>
	<006b01c8e92a$9b2d61c0$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <666289F6300146DCB25AFCD350C3B96A@jdnet.deere.com>

> EXTREMELY DANGEROUSUS welding on a gas tank, please make sure you know
> what you are doing.  "FT"

All relative, I suppose.  Some would say the same of having a service pit in
your garage.
<VBG>

(Not to mention driving an antique car on today's roads.)
Randall

From shiples at comcast.net  Fri Jul 18 19:07:56 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:07:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
In-Reply-To: <666289F6300146DCB25AFCD350C3B96A@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <006b01c8e92a$9b2d61c0$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
	<2400a5d40807181556p5af1d305la5bfa187757a0473@mail.gmail.com>
	<006b01c8e92a$9b2d61c0$b64d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080718174528.030bd200@mail.comcast.net>

At 04:56 PM 7/18/2008 -0700, Randall wrote:
> > EXTREMELY DANGEROUSUS welding on a gas tank, please make sure you know
> > what you are doing.  "FT"
>
>All relative, I suppose.  Some would say the same of having a service pit in
>your garage.
><VBG>

There was a welding shop in the neighborhood that would do small jobs for 
10 bucks.  Gas tanks were double the price.  He'd fill the tank with water 
and weld pinholes with oxy/acetylene.  I think the trick is to weld in the 
open rather than in the service pit.

Sorry, I really liked Randall's joke.

From smarc at smarc.net  Fri Jul 18 19:46:09 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:46:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] blast cabinet media
In-Reply-To: <825426.50479.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <825426.50479.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48814761.20209@smarc.net>

My 'dust collector' is a new addition. I initially just hooked up a 
cheap shop vac, that turned out to be too much. Amusingly it sucked the 
gloves into the cabinet, but also pulled a lot of media out.
Then I made a water trap type filter, which worked pretty good, but 
still was too much. Then I added a filter to the inside of the cabinet 
on the suction hose. Thats good, but still gets clogged pretty fast.
The final thing was I got a router speed control ( 
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=43060 ) 
and used it to throttle back the shopvac. This works fantastically well, 
and helps cut down on the noise as well.

I have a Cyclone brand PK36 cabinet, has both top and side openings. I 
taped up the top cause it leaked, and the door tends to spill media all 
over when you open it...

My gun IS shot, just bought a new one today that takes ceramic nozzles.


Doug Braun wrote:
> With my cabinet, I have to add new glass beads pretty
> regularly to replace what has gotten destroyed
> and sucked up by my stop-vac dust collector.
> Over a couple of years, I've probably replaced all
> the media about twice, but I have never had to
> actually remove or dispose of any (except for
> emptying the dust collector, of course).
>
> Is your dust collector giving enough airflow through
> the cabinet?  If the airflow from the gun were to
> exceed the airflow into the dust collector, the
> dusty air would get backed up and escape through the
> air inlet.
>
> Maybe the beads are OK, and your gun (not just the
> tip) has gotten worn?
>
> As for disposal, if you could have thrown away the
> parts you blasted, I guess you could also throw away
> the used media.
>
> I once added a mix of glass beads and aluminum oxide. 
> It cut somewhat faster, but not enough to justify the
> extra cost.  Also, it is much more abrasive on any
> moving parts, like the gun trigger or door parts.
>
> BTW, you can see photos of my cabinet at:
> 31ford.dougbraun.com
>
> Doug
>
> --- Marc <smarc at smarc.net> wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi -
>>
>> I have a large blast cabinet in my garage. I've been
>> using glass bead in 
>> it only because I got a 50 lb bag as a freebie.
>> Anyway, the media is a 
>> couple years old, and probably needs to be changed
>> out, doesn't seem to 
>> cut very well any more. Also time for a new gun...
>>
>> Any disposal issues with used media?
>>
>> My cabinet is a bit on the messy side - Although I
>> like the finish that 
>> glass bead provides, are other media less messy?
>> -- 

-- 

From smarc at smarc.net  Fri Jul 18 19:51:39 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:51:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net><2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
	<763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <488148AB.8020404@smarc.net>

Thanks for the rather direct answer, and to all for telling me waaay 
more then I ever wanted to know about the topic! The more I googled, the 
more conflicting the info. Ain't the internet grand?!


Randall wrote:
>>  Does that viscosity number factor like regular
>> oil? In other words, higher number, thinner oil?
>>     
>
> Er, no, in both cases a higher number means a thicker oil (at a constant
> temperature).  
>
> But "10 weight" covers a range of centistokes values, and apparently 46 (at
> 40C) is within range, so the oil you have should be fine.  Pour point of ISO
> 46 is under -20F, so you should be fine @ 40F.
>
> Randall
>   

-- 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jul 18 20:20:51 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:20:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] fuel tank leak
In-Reply-To: <002801c8e926$885b6820$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <586051.87804.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- "Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)"
<coles at colesnurseries.com> wrote:

> I am rinsing my antique fuel tank with MEK to clean
> it out and prepare it for
> sealing.  Two questions: First, the tank has a leak
> in one of the seams about
> 2/3 of the way up.  It's not too bad but still needs
> to be fixed.  I can't get
> to the spot on the inside.  Is there a putty or
> caulk that I can use on the
> outside. 

Isn't that the sort of thing that the sealing is
supposed to fix?

> Secondly, it's  a 12 gal tank and I have
> 10 gal of MEK.  Can I
> swoosh it around or do I need to get 2 gal more to
> do a decent job ?

Yikes!  How are you going to get rid of 10 gallons of
slightly used MEK?  And how are you going to swoosh
something that weighs close to 100 pounds?  And how
much did all that solvent cost?

I would swish it with a couple of quarts, and do it
maybe 4 times, each with fresh solvent.

Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jul 18 20:30:04 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] blast cabinet media
In-Reply-To: <48814761.20209@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <714910.92406.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On my cabinet, I added a second air hose into the
cabinet that has a blow gun nozzle.  After blasting
something and before opening the door, I use the
blowgun to blow the media and dust off the workpiece
and the door sill.  This cuts way down on the amount
of spillage.  Highly recommended.

I also built a sort of hood (from cardboard and duct
tape) that surrounds the outlet opening.  This cuts
down on the amount of beads that find their way into
the shop-vac.

Doug

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 20:44:40 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:44:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] blast cabinet media
In-Reply-To: <714910.92406.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <48814761.20209@smarc.net>
	<714910.92406.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807181944i1ea0df94n2a30168b05e44996@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> On my cabinet, I added a second air hose into the
> cabinet that has a blow gun nozzle.  After blasting
> something and before opening the door, I use the
> blowgun to blow the media and dust off the workpiece
> and the door sill.  This cuts way down on the amount
> of spillage.  Highly recommended.
>
> I also built a sort of hood (from cardboard and duct
> tape) that surrounds the outlet opening.  This cuts
> down on the amount of beads that find their way into
> the shop-vac.

It occurs to me that woodworkers use dust collection equipment that
works very well for gathering dust, and which isn't based on a vacuum
cleaner.  Instead of being low-volume, high static pressure suckers,
like a shop vac is, they're high volume, low static pressure systems.
The high volume removes dust quite well, and isn't likely to suck too
many beads away...


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Fri Jul 18 23:11:47 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:11:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question: substitute of ATF
In-Reply-To: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <005901c8e95d$f2921770$d7b64650$@mele@usermail.com>

another thought

I talked to Mohawk about my used A-7...they confirmed that I could use
synthetic (Redline) ATF instead; 
so far so good; 
my shop is insulated, and goes from 50-90 F when the HVAC isn't on.
  
ATF may be an option for other brands...ask and see if that will make it
easier for you.

PM

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Marc
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 4:33 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question

I needed a couple gallons of hydraulic fluid for my new lift. The fluid 
spec'ed was "10 weight common hydraulic fluid (AW32 or AW46)".

I asked a friend to pick some up for me as he was right near the place. 
What he brought me is labeled "AW Hydraulic Oil ISP 46".

Are the terms 'oil' & 'fluid' used interchangeably? Is this the right 
stuff?  What do I need to know?

-- 
Marc
smarc at smarc.net     	DISCLAIMER: Do not write below this line. Void 
where prohibited. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. 
Batteries not included. Simulated picture. Do not use while operating a 
motor vehicle or heavy equipment. May cause drowsiness. No 
user-serviceable parts inside. Your cancelled check is your receipt. 
Sign here without admitting guilt. No purchase necessary. Contestants 
have been briefed on some questions before the show. First pull up, then 
pull down. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or 
consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to 
perform. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. This supersedes all 
previous notices.
You are subscribed as paul.mele at usermail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

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From paul.mele at usermail.com  Fri Jul 18 23:13:26 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:13:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question: substitute of ATF
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net> 
Message-ID: <005a01c8e95e$2d0c5640$872502c0$@mele@usermail.com>

another thought

I talked to Mohawk about my used A-7...they confirmed that I could use
synthetic (Redline) ATF instead; 
so far so good; 
my shop is insulated, and goes from 50-90 F when the HVAC isn't on.
  
ATF may be an option for other brands...ask and see if that will make it
easier for you.

PM

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Marc
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 4:33 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic fluid question

I needed a couple gallons of hydraulic fluid for my new lift. The fluid 
spec'ed was "10 weight common hydraulic fluid (AW32 or AW46)".

I asked a friend to pick some up for me as he was right near the place. 
What he brought me is labeled "AW Hydraulic Oil ISP 46".

Are the terms 'oil' & 'fluid' used interchangeably? Is this the right 
stuff?  What do I need to know?

-- 

From mog8 at oh.rr.com  Sat Jul 19 09:27:50 2008
From: mog8 at oh.rr.com (Gary K)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:27:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Blue Grease
Message-ID: <000d01c8e9b4$0239b2e0$06ad18a0$@rr.com>

Sometime ago I inherited a nice grease gun loaded with a light blue colored
grease.  It was bulk packed so no cardboard tube to identify what the
composition might be.  

 

The previous owner of the gun was a BMW motorcycle enthusiast.  He had
another gun labeled Lithium for sliding surfaces, so I suspect this grease
is for rolling bearings etc.  

 

Anybody have a clue what this light blue grease might be?

 

Gary K

Grafton, OH

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sat Jul 19 09:40:41 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:40:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] light blue grease
Message-ID: <018d01c8e9b5$cd7aab20$6501a8c0@niolon>

I have a hand operated gun that uses the small carts... the carts I bought 
with the gun also have the light blue stuff and it's labeled as "Marine 
Grease"   guess it's a little more impervious to water/salt maybe ???   it 
seems to be excellent grease

john



"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much 
government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering) 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 09:49:05 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:49:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Blue Grease
In-Reply-To: <000d01c8e9b4$0239b2e0$06ad18a0$@rr.com>
References: <000d01c8e9b4$0239b2e0$06ad18a0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807190849n640892a7j2b727b1c00e761c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Gary K <mog8 at oh.rr.com> wrote:
> Sometime ago I inherited a nice grease gun loaded with a light blue colored
> grease.  It was bulk packed so no cardboard tube to identify what the
> composition might be.
>
>
>
> The previous owner of the gun was a BMW motorcycle enthusiast.  He had
> another gun labeled Lithium for sliding surfaces, so I suspect this grease
> is for rolling bearings etc.
>
>
>
> Anybody have a clue what this light blue grease might be?

There are a bunch of greases dyed blue.  It's probably a NLGI #2 wheel
bearing grease.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Jul 19 10:50:30 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:50:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <488148AB.8020404@smarc.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
	<763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
	<488148AB.8020404@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <0K49002VUIS8SMH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

OK, while we're on this topic, I have another question.  I have a 
boat that has hydraulic cylinders that raise the outdrive.  A switch 
turns on a pump, which supplies the fluid to two cylinders, and they 
raise or lower the outdrive.  Simple enough.  The special hydraulic 
fluid is 5 or 10 bucks for what looks like a big toothpaste 
tube.  Manual says to use their magic juice, or ATF.  So, is their 
any reason I want to pay for their special stuff?  This isn't the 
first time I've run into this situation.  I've seen similar 
recommendations with tractors and other equipment.  Sometimes they 
say they prefer some special fluid, but you can use ATF.  I'd always 
prefer to use the special stuff if it will prevent problems, but 
sometimes I think it is just a way to separate customers from their 
money.  Thoughts?

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From nick at landform.co.uk  Sat Jul 19 14:50:03 2008
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:50:03 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <0K49002VUIS8SMH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
	<763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
	<488148AB.8020404@smarc.net> <0K49002VUIS8SMH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4882537B.5020306@landform.co.uk>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> OK, while we're on this topic, I have another question.  I have a 
> boat that has hydraulic cylinders that raise the outdrive.  A switch 
> turns on a pump, which supplies the fluid to two cylinders, and they 
> raise or lower the outdrive.  Simple enough.  The special hydraulic 
> fluid is 5 or 10 bucks for what looks like a big toothpaste 
> tube.  Manual says to use their magic juice, or ATF.  So, is their 
> any reason I want to pay for their special stuff?  This isn't the 
> first time I've run into this situation.  I've seen similar 
> recommendations with tractors and other equipment.  Sometimes they 
> say they prefer some special fluid, but you can use ATF.  I'd always 
> prefer to use the special stuff if it will prevent problems, but 
> sometimes I think it is just a way to separate customers from their 
> money.  Thoughts?
>   
Steven,

I've always thought that manual writers err on the side of caution. If 
they say ATF is OK you can take it as being so. When you think about it 
ATF takes an awful lot of punishment in its normal daily life, 
intermittently raising and lowering of an outdrive should be well within 
its capabilities.

Then again I'm not going to be marooned ten miles from land when the 
outdrive won't lower...

Nick Brearley

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 16:30:20 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:30:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <0K49002VUIS8SMH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
	<763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
	<488148AB.8020404@smarc.net> <0K49002VUIS8SMH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360807191530g6ab2bd6dk52cc934a70df2ef2@mail.gmail.com>

*I'm an old ex-tractor dealer and we sold several lines and serviced nearly
all makes of tractors and equipment.  It was maddening and expensive to have
to stock several types of hydraulic fluid and lube oils but we didn't take
many liberties with substitution . . Massey, John Deere, and International
each had a light fluid that served as hydraulic and often, also was the
transmission and final drive lube. . . The additive packs for extreme
pressure, anti-foam, anti rust, etc., differed and there were even
compatibility problems . . *
**
*On the other hand, your lift cylinders get so little use and have such a
minor function and undemanding role to fulfill that one ought to be able to
use any oil that will flow!   Consider, however, the possibility of some
tolerance for moisture or seal compatibility . . Go ahead and get the good
stuff for peace of mind. *

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Jul 19 20:48:03 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:48:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Another Hydraulic fluid question
In-Reply-To: <0K49002VUIS8SMH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <4880FDFF.5020600@smarc.net>
	<2400a5d40807181400k55836cf6n9915188bc19f039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48810BC7.5000208@smarc.net>
	<763413ED848D49F4BA5509DC9ADD23F4@jdnet.deere.com>
	<488148AB.8020404@smarc.net> <0K49002VUIS8SMH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807191948r23be17eeub82ab6e47e9673bf@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:50 AM, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
'd always
> prefer to use the special stuff if it will prevent problems, but
> sometimes I think it is just a way to separate customers from their
> money.  Thoughts?

Myabe they are, maybe they're not.  On the other hand, you change the
outdrive oil once a year?  And it costs you how much to do it with the
fancy stuff?  The same as running the engine for 20 minutes?


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 16:22:33 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
Message-ID: <726073.42564.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
I'm in the planning process of adding a deck cover to our rear deck; the goal is to have a sheltered area that I can move the kids' stuff to from the garage, and free up space there (Actually got this idea from a previous thread from someone doing something similar).  The deck is a second-story deck (our lot has a steep slope), and is roughly 9' deep x 30' wide.  It faces west, and thus gets a beating from the sun in the afternoons, with ambient temps in the 90's (to possibly low 100's on occasion) during the summer.  For most of the rest of the year, it is wet and drizzly (Portland, OR).  No snow load to speak of, but there is the possibility of high winds (60+mph) a few times a year.
I wanted to do something quick and temporary, since we were thinking of razing the deck in the next 2-3 yrs and adding an addition, but with the way things are, this cover might be in service for significantly longer.  According to the county, no permit is required for anything under 200 sq. ft. and freestanding, so this is what I'll stick to.
I went shopping at Lowe's over the weekend, to see what I could find.  I found some Tuftex corrogated panels (www.tuftexpanel.com/polycarb.htm), which I thought would make a reasonable roof.  They have two grades, one with lifetime warranty, and the other with 0 warranty; a call to Tuftex support indicated that they expected replacement between 2-10 years, so I think I'm sticking with the higher grade stuff.
Regarding framing the cover, it needs to be standalone, so I can't attach it to a ledger board.  I think I can form a sufficient stable base if I use brackets to attach 4x4 pillars to the deck directly above where the current supports are.  To attach the roof, I found a local lumber liquidator that has a large number of half-gable trusses with an acceptable pitch (1 in 3) which I can shorten to the correct length.  The trusses are triangulated pretty well, but are only made of 2x2's (they were originally made for manufactured homes).  How can I calculate if these are strong enough?  (the panels are ~15lbs each, supported on 14" centers).
What would be really nice would be finding some free design software like HD has for building decks, but for designing covers or roofs.  Sadly, my google-fu skills are not good enough.  Does anyone know of any they can send my way?

Thanks!

From bill at gingerich.us  Tue Jul 22 17:11:57 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:11:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders
Message-ID: <989ACEE761904CA18636CD747C1987D7@shack2>

Greetings, all!

 

I'm starting the process of deciding which MIG I want to buy when I'm
employed again.  In the past I've always wanted a unit with a continuously
variable voltage.  My question to all of you experts out there is this: is
continuous voltage adjustment worth having?  Auto body (Triumph) work is one
of the main uses, plus whatever heavier stuff I decide to play with.  What's
the consensus?

 

BillG

Newalla, OK 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jul 22 17:45:45 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:45:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders
In-Reply-To: <989ACEE761904CA18636CD747C1987D7@shack2>
References: <989ACEE761904CA18636CD747C1987D7@shack2>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20080722193424.01efc5f0@cox.net>

At 07:11 PM 7/22/2008, "Bill Gingerich" wrote:


>I'm starting the process of deciding which MIG I want to buy when I'm
>employed again.  In the past I've always wanted a unit with a continuously
>variable voltage.  My question to all of you experts out there is this: is
>continuous voltage adjustment worth having?  Auto body (Triumph) work is one
>of the main uses, plus whatever heavier stuff I decide to play with.  What's
>the consensus?

Bill,

When I took MIG welding at the local community college, we had both
voltage and speed continually variable.  I have a Lincoln SP100 at home
which also has boot continually variable.  I find that this is a big plus!

This allows you to "fine tune" the machine to your welding style.  Other
wise you have to adapt to the machine.  If the speed feed is too fast
then you have to speed up your welding.  If the voltage is too high
you have to speed up your welding.  But if you have a pace you like
with both being variable, you can adjust them until you like it.

I'd say, DEFINITELY!  You want both variable.

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jul 22 19:04:16 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders
In-Reply-To: <989ACEE761904CA18636CD747C1987D7@shack2>
Message-ID: <136171.56861.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

About 8 years ago I bought the higher-end 120-volt
Lincoln MIG welder to do some repairs on my Spitfire.
It has the continuously-variable voltage feature.
I recommend that for British cars, which have thinner
sheet metal than most cars.  Naturally you will want a
gas bottle and regulator, since flux-core is messier
on thin work.  (Even so, I sometimes switch from
MIG to flux-core to do thicker work.)

The machine has worked fine, and I have gotten more
use from it while working on my '31 Ford (see
31ford.dougbraun.com).

Doug



--- Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:

> Greetings, all!
> 
>  
> 
> I'm starting the process of deciding which MIG I
> want to buy when I'm
> employed again.  In the past I've always wanted a
> unit with a continuously
> variable voltage.  My question to all of you experts
> out there is this: is
> continuous voltage adjustment worth having?  Auto
> body (Triumph) work is one
> of the main uses, plus whatever heavier stuff I
> decide to play with.  What's
> the consensus?
> 
>  
> 
> BillG
> 
> Newalla, OK 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Tue Jul 22 19:57:06 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:57:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
In-Reply-To: <726073.42564.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <726073.42564.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48868FF2.5000604@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Polycarbonate panels are the way to go. I installed some on a patio roof 
about 15 years ago and they don't show any signs of dieing any time soon.
In looking at the installation information on the site I see that they 
recommend aluminum nails. I used cad plated roofing screws with rubber 
washers. They are about 2" long so they go through the panel, the 
corrugated material under the panel, and into the rafter.

As for free standing framing, it may be tough to get it to work with 
high wind loads. My roof was on the lower edge of the roof, so I removed 
the fascia board and extended the rafter tails to go to the outside of 
the deck. It helped that the wall on that side of the deck was 10' tall!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Obaa:
> Hi all,
> I'm in the planning process of adding a deck cover to our rear deck; the goal is to have a sheltered area that I can move the kids' stuff to from the garage, and free up space there (Actually got this idea from a previous thread from someone doing something similar).  The deck is a second-story deck (our lot has a steep slope), and is roughly 9' deep x 30' wide.  It faces west, and thus gets a beating from the sun in the afternoons, with ambient temps in the 90's (to possibly low 100's on occasion) during the summer.  For most of the rest of the year, it is wet and drizzly (Portland, OR).  No snow load to speak of, but there is the possibility of high winds (60+mph) a few times a year.
> I wanted to do something quick and temporary, since we were thinking of razing the deck in the next 2-3 yrs and adding an addition, but with the way things are, this cover might be in service for significantly longer.  According to the county, no permit is required for anything under 200 sq. ft. and freestanding, so this is what I'll stick to.
> I went shopping at Lowe's over the weekend, to see what I could find.  I found some Tuftex corrogated panels (www.tuftexpanel.com/polycarb.htm), which I thought would make a reasonable roof.  They have two grades, one with lifetime warranty, and the other with 0 warranty; a call to Tuftex support indicated that they expected replacement between 2-10 years, so I think I'm sticking with the higher grade stuff.
> Regarding framing the cover, it needs to be standalone, so I can't attach it to a ledger board.  I think I can form a sufficient stable base if I use brackets to attach 4x4 pillars to the deck directly above where the current supports are.  To attach the roof, I found a local lumber liquidator that has a large number of half-gable trusses with an acceptable pitch (1 in 3) which I can shorten to the correct length.  The trusses are triangulated pretty well, but are only made of 2x2's (they were originally made for manufactured homes).  How can I calculate if these are strong enough?  (the panels are ~15lbs each, supported on 14" centers).
> What would be really nice would be finding some free design software like HD has for building decks, but for designing covers or roofs.  Sadly, my google-fu skills are not good enough.  Does anyone know of any they can send my way?
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1567 - Release Date: 7/22/2008 4:05 PM
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From bill at gingerich.us  Tue Jul 22 20:56:24 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:56:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders, part 2
Message-ID: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>

The majority of replies so far say infinite variable voltage is a good thing
to have.  Given that, I've been looking at what Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart
offer.  Hobart doesn't seem to like infinite voltage, at least in my price
range, so I eliminating them from the mix.  So, which do people like better
- Miller or Lincoln?  Does it really matter?  Prices seem about the same.
Miller has their "autoset" feature - set the wire size and material
thickness and do your thing.  Sounds handy for a beginner like me.

 

Are there other manufacturers that I need to give consideration too?

 

TIA, etc.

 

BillG

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 21:10:02 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:10:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders, part 2
In-Reply-To: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
References: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807222010j6114e174i4442da6a0ee3564@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 10:56 PM, Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:
> The majority of replies so far say infinite variable voltage is a good thing
> to have.  Given that, I've been looking at what Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart
> offer.

It's a good thing, yes.  Is it essential?  Not to me, no.
Particularly with a new welder, it's one more thing to have to worry
about getting set right.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Jul 22 21:12:13 2008
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:12:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders, part 2
In-Reply-To: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
References: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
Message-ID: <4886A18D.6070201@comcast.net>

I can vouch for Lincoln's support.


bs


Bill Gingerich wrote:
> The majority of replies so far say infinite variable voltage is a good thing
> to have.  Given that, I've been looking at what Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart
> offer.  Hobart doesn't seem to like infinite voltage, at least in my price
> range, so I eliminating them from the mix.  So, which do people like better
> - Miller or Lincoln?  Does it really matter?  Prices seem about the same.
> Miller has their "autoset" feature - set the wire size and material
> thickness and do your thing.  Sounds handy for a beginner like me.
>
>  
>
> Are there other manufacturers that I need to give consideration too?
>
>  
>
> TIA, etc.
>
>  
>
> BillG
>   
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
*******************************************************************

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jul 22 21:11:27 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:11:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders, part 2
In-Reply-To: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
Message-ID: <95715.16528.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

When you price different packages, be sure not to
forget the gas regulator and bottle.  Some models may
include the regulator, others not.

Also, you WILL need a cart, so factor in the price for
that, if the welder does not include one.

Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jul 22 21:14:46 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:14:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacement hose for sandblaster?
Message-ID: <508279.83050.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I have been getting a lot of use from my generic
made-in-China 10-gallon pressure-pot sandblaster, and
I noticed that the hose is starting to disintegrate. 
This is a heavy rubber hose of 1/2" I.D., about 8 feet
long.

Has anybody seen a good source for a replacement? 
McMaster has something that might work, but it's hard
to say without seeing it in person.

Thanks,
Doug

From chad at linuxeg.com  Tue Jul 22 21:29:34 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:29:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders
References: <989ACEE761904CA18636CD747C1987D7@shack2>
Message-ID: <05b901c8ec74$5482f850$6101a8c0@tardis>

I've had a Lincoln WeldPak 155 (220v) for around
10 years with no problems welding steel from body panels to 0.134" ERW tube 
but, if I had it to do it
over I get another Lincoln with variable voltage and a
model which, if you ever plan to weld Al., accepts a
spool gun.
chad
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us>
To: "'Shop-Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 7:11 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders


> Greetings, all!
>
>
>
> I'm starting the process of deciding which MIG I want to buy when I'm
> employed again.  In the past I've always wanted a unit with a continuously
> variable voltage.  My question to all of you experts out there is this: is
> continuous voltage adjustment worth having?  Auto body (Triumph) work is 
> one
> of the main uses, plus whatever heavier stuff I decide to play with. 
> What's
> the consensus?
>
>
>
> BillG
>
> Newalla, OK
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jul 23 05:51:54 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:51:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders, part 2
In-Reply-To: <95715.16528.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
	<95715.16528.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20080723074757.01ee4008@cox.net>

At 11:11 PM 7/22/2008, Doug Braun wrote:


>When you price different packages, be sure not to
>forget the gas regulator and bottle.  Some models may
>include the regulator, others not.
>
>Also, you WILL need a cart, so factor in the price for
>that, if the welder does not include one.

For a cart, I initially used my cheap convertible (4 wheel) hand truck sitting
horizontal.  Laid down a plywood deck, and made a ring out of ply wood to hold
the gas bottle and screwed it to the base.  Then I used a piece of rope to tie
the neck of the bottle to the handle.

Most people will say to build your own to learn to weld.  Good idea.  But
if you watch harbor freight they put their MIG welding cart on sale pretty
often.  I'm purchased one and am very happy with it.  I don't think I could
have built one for as cheap.

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Jul 23 07:21:01 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:21:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders, part 2
In-Reply-To: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
References: <C4988D8EDBC44CA886444E14F0FF00A6@shack2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0807230916270.2669@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Bill Gingerich wrote:
> The majority of replies so far say infinite variable voltage is a good 
> thing to have.  Given that, I've been looking at what Lincoln, Miller, 
> and Hobart offer.  Hobart doesn't seem to like infinite voltage, at 
> least in my price range, so I eliminating them from the mix.  So, which 
> do people like better - Miller or Lincoln?  Does it really matter? 
> Prices seem about the same. Miller has their "autoset" feature - set the 
> wire size and material thickness and do your thing.  Sounds handy for a 
> beginner like me.

Since everyone has come out in favor of continuously adjustable voltage, I 
guess I'll dissent at least a little bit... My welder (Lincoln SP-175plus) 
has it too, but I find I pretty much almost never play with the voltage... 
I get it in the range, then use wire speed to get a nice sounding arc. 
Sure, you need to adjust your welding motion depending on what the puddle 
is doing, but that's pretty much true no matter what you do in my 
experience.

> Are there other manufacturers that I need to give consideration too?

Thought I've never used one, HTP has a pretty good name.  They seem more 
in the land of "higher end welder for middle end price" though, so I dunno 
what they have in the suitcase MIG range.

If it were me, I'd buy either a Miller or a Hobart I think, but the real 
test is to go to your local gas/welding supplier and see what they carry. 
Buy one of those, then you can get that tip or whatever the next day when 
you need it.

Mark

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Jul 23 09:27:40 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:27:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
References: <726073.42564.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000401c8ecdc$6c018ba0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

You might want to rethink that tuftex.  I've seen it in use several times, 
and the results haven't been nice.  It softens and warps very easily in hot 
sunlight.  It has very little strength, so it tears easily.  That's really 
not nice in windy areas.  They need a great deal of support or else it sags 
and warps tremendously.

I would suggest you look at the other plastic panels sitting there in the 
shelf beside them.  I've used the clear panels for chicken coops and had 
them survive 60+ mph winds without incident.  They don't warp, but aren't 
particularly strong either, so they need support to prevent sagging.

Google Sketch-up is a very nice free and fairly intuitive house designing 
software that is capable of modeling the roof.  It's not going to do the 
load calculations, but it will let you see it readily enough.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Obaa" <obaa996 at yahoo.com>
To: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:22 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?


> Hi all,
> I'm in the planning process of adding a deck cover to our rear deck; the 
> goal is to have a sheltered area that I can move the kids' stuff to from 
> the garage, and free up space there (Actually got this idea from a 
> previous thread from someone doing something similar).  The deck is a 
> second-story deck (our lot has a steep slope), and is roughly 9' deep x 
> 30' wide.  It faces west, and thus gets a beating from the sun in the 
> afternoons, with ambient temps in the 90's (to possibly low 100's on 
> occasion) during the summer.  For most of the rest of the year, it is wet 
> and drizzly (Portland, OR).  No snow load to speak of, but there is the 
> possibility of high winds (60+mph) a few times a year.
> I wanted to do something quick and temporary, since we were thinking of 
> razing the deck in the next 2-3 yrs and adding an addition, but with the 
> way things are, this cover might be in service for significantly longer. 
> According to the county, no permit is required for anything under 200 sq. 
> ft. and freestanding, so this is what I'll stick to.
> I went shopping at Lowe's over the weekend, to see what I could find.  I 
> found some Tuftex corrogated panels (www.tuftexpanel.com/polycarb.htm), 
> which I thought would make a reasonable roof.  They have two grades, one 
> with lifetime warranty, and the other with 0 warranty; a call to Tuftex 
> support indicated that they expected replacement between 2-10 years, so I 
> think I'm sticking with the higher grade stuff.
> Regarding framing the cover, it needs to be standalone, so I can't attach 
> it to a ledger board.  I think I can form a sufficient stable base if I 
> use brackets to attach 4x4 pillars to the deck directly above where the 
> current supports are.  To attach the roof, I found a local lumber 
> liquidator that has a large number of half-gable trusses with an 
> acceptable pitch (1 in 3) which I can shorten to the correct length.  The 
> trusses are triangulated pretty well, but are only made of 2x2's (they 
> were originally made for manufactured homes).  How can I calculate if 
> these are strong enough?  (the panels are ~15lbs each, supported on 14" 
> centers).
> What would be really nice would be finding some free design software like 
> HD has for building decks, but for designing covers or roofs.  Sadly, my 
> google-fu skills are not good enough.  Does anyone know of any they can 
> send my way?

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Wed Jul 23 10:25:51 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:25:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
In-Reply-To: <000401c8ecdc$6c018ba0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <726073.42564.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<000401c8ecdc$6c018ba0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <48875B8F.1090603@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Nolan,

Where are you located? I've been using polycarbonate panels in central 
Texas, with summer temperatures running well over 100 deg for years 
without any problems. Polycarbonate is the stuff they make bullet-proof 
windows out of, if I remember correctly. Are you possibly thinking of 
the fiberglass panels? The brand I used was SunTuf. Yes, they all need 
full support, but so does corrugated steel roofing, just not quite as much.

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake Nolan:
> You might want to rethink that tuftex.  I've seen it in use several times, 
> and the results haven't been nice.  It softens and warps very easily in hot 
> sunlight.  It has very little strength, so it tears easily.  That's really 
> not nice in windy areas.  They need a great deal of support or else it sags 
> and warps tremendously.
>
> I would suggest you look at the other plastic panels sitting there in the 
> shelf beside them.  I've used the clear panels for chicken coops and had 
> them survive 60+ mph winds without incident.  They don't warp, but aren't 
> particularly strong either, so they need support to prevent sagging.
>
>   
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Jul 23 11:27:13 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:27:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
References: <726073.42564.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<000401c8ecdc$6c018ba0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<48875B8F.1090603@HorneSystemsTx.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c8ece9$58b26300$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Oh crud, I was thinking of the wrong stuff.  I was thinking he was planning 
to use the Ondura asphalt panels.  Polycarbonate was what I was thinking he 
should use instead.   Totally off base by me.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat" <Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com>
To: "Nolan" <opposumking at verizon.net>
Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?


> Nolan,
>
> Where are you located? I've been using polycarbonate panels in central 
> Texas, with summer temperatures running well over 100 deg for years 
> without any problems. Polycarbonate is the stuff they make bullet-proof 
> windows out of, if I remember correctly. Are you possibly thinking of the 
> fiberglass panels? The brand I used was SunTuf. Yes, they all need full 
> support, but so does corrugated steel roofing, just not quite as much.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
>
> Thusly spake Nolan:
>> You might want to rethink that tuftex.  I've seen it in use several 
>> times, and the results haven't been nice.  It softens and warps very 
>> easily in hot sunlight.  It has very little strength, so it tears easily. 
>> That's really not nice in windy areas.  They need a great deal of support 
>> or else it sags and warps tremendously.
>>
>> I would suggest you look at the other plastic panels sitting there in the 
>> shelf beside them.  I've used the clear panels for chicken coops and had 
>> them survive 60+ mph winds without incident.  They don't warp, but aren't 
>> particularly strong either, so they need support to prevent sagging.

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Wed Jul 23 11:31:34 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:31:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
In-Reply-To: <000f01c8ece9$58b26300$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <726073.42564.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<000401c8ecdc$6c018ba0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<48875B8F.1090603@HorneSystemsTx.com>
	<000f01c8ece9$58b26300$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <48876AF6.5060400@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Nolan,

Yea, Ondura is not something I would even consider for use on a dog 
house. At Habitat for Humanity Home Depot sponsored a house and wanted 
to use it on the roof (we use metal roofs here in Texas for the most 
part). We told them that Ondura would not be suitable, so they paid for 
metal instead, no questions asked.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Nolan:
> Oh crud, I was thinking of the wrong stuff.  I was thinking he was 
> planning to use the Ondura asphalt panels.  Polycarbonate was what I 
> was thinking he should use instead.   Totally off base by me.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat" <Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com>
> To: "Nolan" <opposumking at verizon.net>
> Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
>
>
>> Nolan,
>>
>> Where are you located? I've been using polycarbonate panels in 
>> central Texas, with summer temperatures running well over 100 deg for 
>> years without any problems. Polycarbonate is the stuff they make 
>> bullet-proof windows out of, if I remember correctly. Are you 
>> possibly thinking of the fiberglass panels? The brand I used was 
>> SunTuf. Yes, they all need full support, but so does corrugated steel 
>> roofing, just not quite as much.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>>
>> Thusly spake Nolan:
>>> You might want to rethink that tuftex.  I've seen it in use several 
>>> times, and the results haven't been nice.  It softens and warps very 
>>> easily in hot sunlight.  It has very little strength, so it tears 
>>> easily. That's really not nice in windy areas.  They need a great 
>>> deal of support or else it sags and warps tremendously.
>>>
>>> I would suggest you look at the other plastic panels sitting there 
>>> in the shelf beside them.  I've used the clear panels for chicken 
>>> coops and had them survive 60+ mph winds without incident.  They 
>>> don't warp, but aren't particularly strong either, so they need 
>>> support to prevent sagging.
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 
> 270.5.5/1568 - Release Date: 7/23/2008 6:55 AM
>
>
>

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 23 15:20:00 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:20:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
In-Reply-To: <48868FF2.5000604@HorneSystemsTx.com>
Message-ID: <271369.57369.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the comments guys.

It sounds like there are some mixed opinions on this stuff, but dependent on the material?  I'm specifically planning on using the translucent white polycarbonate stuff, not the ondura roof panels.  It seems like these are okay?
Is the concern with the wind-loading due to the top swaying?  The bottom of the posts will be anchored to the deck.  I had hoped to leave the top unattached due to the permitting issue.  (I'm also reluctant to cut through the siding since we have the "bad" LP chipboard siding.  I know I need to replace it, but it's been holding up so far, and we were planning on getting the addition done at the same time as the residing.)  I thought if I triangulated the support posts at the top, that would be sufficient to keep the top from swaying; maybe a few lag bolts into the house would help?
Is there more loading on an open structure like this than a fully enclosed building?  I would think the wind could just blow through it, while an enclosed building would have more of a sail area.  Or is there some lift going on that I haven't accounted for?  If the panels themselves are too flimsy, I can "box" the bottom of the trusses with some 1/4" plywood (I have a lot of that); then the loading would only come from the top.
I'll try the google sketch-up.
Any other ideas or comments, please let me know.

Thanks!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jul 23 19:33:27 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Soda Blasting: My Experience
Message-ID: <625898.29143.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

Yesterday I soda-blasted body of my '31 Ford Sedan
(see 31ford.dougbraun.com). This was such an enjoyable
experience (compared to other methods for stripping
paint) that I have to tell you about it:

I have a typical cheapo 10-gallon pressure-pot blaster
that I had previously used with Black Beauty (coal
slag) to blast the frame, suspension, rear axle, both
sides of the floorpans, and the rear wheel wells.
Since the frame and the underside of the body were
already refinished and the body was back on the
chassis, doing any more sandblasting was out of the
question. Also, all the nooks and crannies on a sedan
body (like around the doors and the belt moldings)
make it really tedious to use chemical paint stripper
or mechanical stripping disks.

I bought Eastwood's (overpriced) retrofit kit and
three sacks of blasting soda. I blasted the rain
gutters (inside and out), all the areas around the
door and quarter window openings, the cowls, and the
windshield pillars. On the rear quarters of the body I
used chemical stripper on the open, smooth areas, and
I soda-blasted the moldings and the places I missed
with the chemical stripper. (The rear panel and rear
window opening had previously been stripped.)

I was able to do all this work with two sacks of soda.
The job was MUCH more pleasant than sandblasting. When
sandblasting, I needed to wear a hood and a forced air
supply to keep the hood window from fogging up, and I
was filthy afterwards. There was also sand all over
the place. When using soda, I needed to use only
gloves, goggles, a simple mouth/nose mask, and
earplugs. If it was really hot outside, I probably
could have worn a bathing suit.

Afterwards, a quick shower (or a spray from a hose),
and you are quite clean. And vacuuming or blowing away
the leftover soda is easier than for normal blast
media, because it is finer and lighter. Today it
rained, and the leftover soda in the driveway has
disappeared without a trace.

There are a few downsides to soda blasting: the media
costs a lot more than Black Beauty. It is maybe 3x
more expensive, and cannot be recycled, so the
effective cost is maybe 6x more than Black Beauty. It
does not remove rust at all. Often you will strip the
paint from a sound-looking area, and discover that
there are lots of slightly rusty patches that have
formed under the paint. (A light sanding will deal
with this.) Finally, you have to make sure your air
supply is pretty dry, or you could get leftover media
caked up in the equipment.

But even with the extra expense, it was well worth it
for me, because in one morning I finished work that
would have otherwise taken me a couple of weeks to do.

Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Jul 23 19:45:35 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:45:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Soda Blasting: My Experience
In-Reply-To: <000801c8ed2f$50950b50$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <476684.80382.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You need to have a real pressure-pot sandblaster, not
a siphon type, and you have to buy the retrofit kit
(some special valves) that is on sale these days for
$109 or so.  Go check out www.eastwood.com.  You also
need a more butch air compressor (220 volt 2-stage).

I think soda blasting would be of less value for
wheels, since they are not attached to anything that
would be damaged by sand. (You could soda-blast wheels
with the tires on, if for some reason that was
necessary.)

Whenever I get around to refinishing my car's wheels,
I can blast them in my blast cabinet, since I was
careful to make it large enough for the wheels to fit
inside.  That's the best solution of all, since there
is very little cleanup.

Doug

--- Tony Vaccaro <tvacc at lotusowners.com> wrote:

> Tell me more. I have some wheels to blast and I have
> a sears sandblaster
> unit. How much as the Soda...can I do it with what I
> have?  I have a smaller
> 5hp compressor...you know like 10 gal tank...
> 
> Tony V

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 24 11:00:25 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:00:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building/adding a deck cover?
Message-ID: <208901.39829.qm@web54302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I didn't see this come back, so resending...

> Thanks for the comments guys.
> 
> It sounds like there are some mixed opinions on this stuff,
> but dependent on the material?  I'm specifically
> planning on using the translucent white polycarbonate
> stuff, not the ondura roof panels.  It seems like these are
> okay?
> Is the concern with the wind-loading due to the top
> swaying?  The bottom of the posts will be anchored to the
> deck.  I had hoped to leave the top unattached due to the
> permitting issue.  (I'm also reluctant to cut through
> the siding since we have the "bad" LP chipboard
> siding.  I know I need to replace it, but it's been
> holding up so far, and we were planning on getting the
> addition done at the same time as the residing.)  I thought
> if I triangulated the support posts at the top, that would
> be sufficient to keep the top from swaying; maybe a few lag
> bolts into the house would help?
> Is there more loading on an open structure like this than a
> fully enclosed building?  I would think the wind could just
> blow through it, while an enclosed building would have more
> of a sail area.  Or is there some lift going on that I
> haven't accounted for?  If the panels themselves are
> too flimsy, I can "box" the bottom of the trusses
> with some 1/4" plywood (I have a lot of that); then the
> loading would only come from the top.
> I'll try the google sketch-up.
> Any other ideas or comments, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks!

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Jul 25 16:55:34 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:55:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Seals
Message-ID: <001401c8eea9$8c53e050$a23e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

A short time back someone posted where one could purchase the =="O" ring
gaskets"== for the instruments, I filed the info and have now forgot where it
is, any help appreciated on this.  "FT"

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Jul 25 17:00:40 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:00:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Seals
In-Reply-To: <001401c8eea9$8c53e050$a23e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <001401c8eea9$8c53e050$a23e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <488A5B18.9030805@dimebank.com>

FRED E THOMAS wrote:
> A short time back someone posted where one could purchase the =="O" ring
> gaskets"== for the instruments, I filed the info and have now forgot where it
> is, any help appreciated on this.  "FT"

The Monster List knows :-)

http://www.dimebank.com/monster/burst/00566.html

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Sat Jul 26 11:12:07 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:12:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rear Emblem
Message-ID: <002201c8ef42$bc09fbb0$67407247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

I have a friend installing a new rear panel on a T/R 3 with no predrilled
holes for the rear emblem or tag light, is there a correct measurement for
installing these parts so it looks factory original.  Thanks   "FT"

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Jul 26 13:23:30 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:23:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders
In-Reply-To: <989ACEE761904CA18636CD747C1987D7@shack2>
References: <989ACEE761904CA18636CD747C1987D7@shack2>
Message-ID: <01e901c8ef55$174e86a0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Bill,

I don't believe the continuously variable feature is much more than a
novelty.  I have a Hobart Hander 140, which does NOT have continuously
variable voltage, so I am biased.   Also, you will be happy with any of the
big three, Miller, Lincoln and Hobart.  There are some great smaller brands
that are good too, but I don't know which are the good ones.

Once you have had some practice welding, you will move the stinger (the part
that holds the mig wire at the work) in and out automatically to adapt to
the differences in the material, cleanliness and gap, etc., as you run a
bead.  This soon to be automatic fine tuning of the weld bead will easily
accommodate the differences between a stepped and continuously variable
voltage setting.  By this I mean you will automatically accommodate the
small variances the welder needs to make nice welds, including the
differences between steps in the electrical controls..

My vote is that while continuous may be better for a newbie, it does not
make a difference once you can draw a decent bead.  If this is the only
factor in picking a unit, get the continuously variable unit, but don't let
this minor feature be a significant deciding factor.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Gingerich
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 4:12 PM
To: 'Shop-Talk'
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welders

Greetings, all!



I'm starting the process of deciding which MIG I want to buy when I'm
employed again.  In the past I've always wanted a unit with a continuously
variable voltage.  My question to all of you experts out there is this: is
continuous voltage adjustment worth having?  Auto body (Triumph) work is one
of the main uses, plus whatever heavier stuff I decide to play with.  What's
the consensus?



BillG

Newalla, OK
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

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From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 28 17:51:36 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic zoning for forced-air systems
Message-ID: <BAY108-W58AAFB5F8FE460A260D699A830@phx.gbl>

Has anyone tried adding zones to their home heating (or cooling) system by
using the automatic zone dampers?

Tried looking for systems that work with rectangular ductwork.  They all seem
to be for round ductwork.

I guess I could transition from rectangular to round, add the damper, then
back to rectangular, but I was hoping to not have to.

Thanks,
PJ

_________________________________________________________________
Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now!

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 19:08:15 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:08:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
Message-ID: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>

*Okay, open your minds . . . the guy on the next bar stool opines that on
his straight six '95 Jeep Cherokee work car,  he is considering removing the
rocker arms and pushrods on every other cylinder in the firing order and
running it on three cylinders to save gas..  The closed cylinders would
resist rotation on compression but rebound on downstroke with little loss
except friction.  *
**
*I'm  thinking this would probably work for some saving but at a steady
state throttle opening, won't it just require about the same fuel to achieve
equilibrium with the wind resistance and rolling resistance?  Also, won't
it freak the ECU when 3 cylinders aren't working?*
**
*What do YOU think?*
**
*Tony*

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 19:37:24 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic zoning for forced-air systems
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W58AAFB5F8FE460A260D699A830@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-W58AAFB5F8FE460A260D699A830@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0807281837l3608ccfdy8516dff20d6a120e@mail.gmail.com>

We have an automatic zoning system on our forced air heating and
cooling system.  It works very well and has dambers in both round and
rectangular ducts.  The system is a Honeywell one and was installed by
a local HVAC company.  We have four zones, each with independent
programmable thermostats.  The system is even smart enough that it
will switch between heating and cooling if one zone want hot and
another wants cold.  Coupled with a variable speed blower and a high
efficiency furnace, this system can reduce your energy consumption,
but probably not enought to pay for itself.  It's real benefit is
comfort.  Out old house was always hot upstairs in the summer and cold
downstairs in the winter.  And that was just a split level.  Our new
house is a two story with a full basement, and all three levels are
always comfortable.

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:51 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone tried adding zones to their home heating (or cooling) system by
> using the automatic zone dampers?
>
> Tried looking for systems that work with rectangular ductwork.  They all seem
> to be for round ductwork.
>
> I guess I could transition from rectangular to round, add the damper, then
> back to rectangular, but I was hoping to not have to.
>
> Thanks,
> PJ
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown =
=================================

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Jul 28 19:55:31 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:55:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601c8f11e$2f46a150$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

If God wanted it to run on three cylinders She would have made it that way!

Seriously, if it does run, I think he will use almost as much gas because he
is basically pushing a brick through the air and it probably didn't have an
over abundance of hp to begin with. He will just have to open the throttle
wider to get where he wants to go.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Elton E. (Tony) Clark
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 9:08 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving


*Okay, open your minds . . . the guy on the next bar stool opines that on
his straight six '95 Jeep Cherokee work car,  he is considering removing the
rocker arms and pushrods on every other cylinder in the firing order and
running it on three cylinders to save gas..  The closed cylinders would
resist rotation on compression but rebound on downstroke with little loss
except friction.  *
**
*I'm  thinking this would probably work for some saving but at a steady
state throttle opening, won't it just require about the same fuel to achieve
equilibrium with the wind resistance and rolling resistance?  Also, won't it
freak the ECU when 3 cylinders aren't working?*
**
*What do YOU think?*
**
*Tony*
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jul 28 20:11:55 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:11:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080729021155.RQTT18001.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> *I'm  thinking this would probably work for some saving but 
> at a steady state throttle opening, won't it just require 
> about the same fuel to achieve equilibrium with the wind 
> resistance and rolling resistance?

Yup.  The only savings (if any) would be lower "pumping losses" due to
running with the throttle wider open.  That's the main reason small engines
get slightly better fuel mileage in the same car as larger ones.

>  Also, won't it freak the 
> ECU when 3 cylinders aren't working?*

IMO depends on what system it uses.  Some combinations might run, sorta, but
others wouldn't at all.  If it's port injection, he'll have to disconnect
the injectors on the unused cylinders; which I suspect would put the ECU
into 'limp' mode.  And TBI with MAP wouldn't do, because the ECU will think
the airflow is twice what it actually is.  But TBI with MAF might make it.

> **
> *What do YOU think?*
> **

I think any small potential savings will be outweighed by the ECU thinking
the engine is being heavily loaded and hence needs richer mixture.  If it
will run at all.

Randall

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Jul 28 21:12:46 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:12:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <20080729021155.RQTT18001.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080729021155.RQTT18001.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <01d601c8f128$fa5046d0$eef0d470$@mele@usermail.com>

Always a great topic

consider that BMW did an experiment in late 70's...production in mid 80's...


took a 3200 lb 5 series, 4 door....
wanted the smoothness of in line 6, with economy of 4...
developed a 2.7 liter low RPM, high torque , 121 HP 'eta' motor....33 MPG
to compete with 1.8 to 2 liter 120 HP 4 cyl, running at higher RPM, more
vibration.  actually got a little better mpg with the 2.7 liter 6 making
same HP as 2 liter 4.

consider that the car requires a fixed torque at rear wheels at a given
speed...and hence HP...to cruise, that is the sum of friction and
aerodynamics, tires, etc.  so , the JEEP may need 12HP to go 60; an MR2 7
HP; the 5 series...10 HP;

whatever the engine, it needs to make that HP to keep the car going at the
test speed.  

so, the question is, what's the most efficient way to make 10 HP (or
whatever).  the answer is lowest RPM with wide open throttle.  Lowest RPM
minim's friction losses that go up rapidly with RPM, and WOT allows you to
get max air/gas in for that engine speed/ friction overhead; less than WOT
"wastes" some of the friction by restricting max HP

R&T did a similar test showing that accel with WOT and shift early (low rpm)
to get up to speed, rather than part throttle and higher RPM shift to get up
to same speed in same time.  (In other words, ACCEL at a constant rate to a
given speed, it is done more efficiently at WOT and low RPM/ short
shifting.)

Consider that this sounds a lot like a diesel...

cheers  

From ericm at lne.com  Mon Jul 28 21:20:02 2008
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:20:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080729032002.GB3021@slack.lne.com>

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 08:08:15PM -0500, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> *Okay, open your minds . . . the guy on the next bar stool opines that on
> his straight six '95 Jeep Cherokee work car,  he is considering removing the
> rocker arms and pushrods on every other cylinder in the firing order and
> running it on three cylinders to save gas..  The closed cylinders would
> resist rotation on compression but rebound on downstroke with little loss
> except friction.  *
> **
> *I'm  thinking this would probably work for some saving but at a steady
> state throttle opening, won't it just require about the same fuel to achieve
> equilibrium with the wind resistance and rolling resistance? 

Yes.

If it's driven at the same speed, the only savings will be the lack
of valve train friction in 3 cylinders.

That's not zero, but it's not very much.

Switching to highway tread tires would do more.  As would
keeping the tires a bit over inflated.  Or using the Cheroke to
haul a bicycle to within commute distance to work and riding in.

Of course halving the power would encurage a more sedate driving style
which itself would result in increased mileage. But he could do that
without touching the engine just by driving slower.


Eric

From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Jul 28 21:31:08 2008
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:31:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque Wrench
Message-ID: <488E8EFC.50602@comcast.net>

Folks,

I need a 1/2-inch drive ratchet torque wrench.  Recommendations?

TIA,
bs

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
*******************************************************************

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Mon Jul 28 21:35:24 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:35:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
References: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080729032002.GB3021@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c8f12c$231c2040$b3457247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Anybody remember the "Cadillac" 8-6-4 from a few years back, seemed to work 
O/K.  "

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Murray" <ericm at lne.com>
To: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
Cc: "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving


> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 08:08:15PM -0500, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
>> *Okay, open your minds . . . the guy on the next bar stool opines that on
>> his straight six '95 Jeep Cherokee work car,  he is considering removing 
>> the
>> rocker arms and pushrods on every other cylinder in the firing order and
>> running it on three cylinders to save gas..  The closed cylinders would
>> resist rotation on compression but rebound on downstroke with little loss
>> except friction.  *
>> **
>> *I'm  thinking this would probably work for some saving but at a steady
>> state throttle opening, won't it just require about the same fuel to 
>> achieve
>> equilibrium with the wind resistance and rolling resistance?
>
> Yes.
>
> If it's driven at the same speed, the only savings will be the lack
> of valve train friction in 3 cylinders.
>
> That's not zero, but it's not very much.
>
> Switching to highway tread tires would do more.  As would
> keeping the tires a bit over inflated.  Or using the Cheroke to
> haul a bicycle to within commute distance to work and riding in.
>
> Of course halving the power would encurage a more sedate driving style
> which itself would result in increased mileage. But he could do that
> without touching the engine just by driving slower.
>
>
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jul 28 22:12:36 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:12:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <00d301c8f12c$231c2040$b3457247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <20080729041236.EFBG15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Anybody remember the "Cadillac" 8-6-4 from a few years back, 
> seemed to work O/K.  "

Yeah, but what I remember is that they almost got sued over them being
"unsafe".  Had a tendency to turn off all cylinders while rolling down the
road; or drop into 4 cylinder mode just after you'd pulled out to pass.  

And the reduction in fuel consumption was pretty trivial as I recall, only
about 10% or so.

Randall

From chad at linuxeg.com  Mon Jul 28 22:43:57 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:43:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque Wrench
References: <488E8EFC.50602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <012401c8f135$b79c3e90$6101a8c0@tardis>

Just came across this a day or so ago, your timing
couldn't have been better. If attachments aren't allowed
I sent the URL.
chad

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
To: "Shop-Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 11:31 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque Wrench


> Folks,
> 
> I need a 1/2-inch drive ratchet torque wrench.  Recommendations?
> 
> TIA,
> bs
> 
> -- 
> *******************************************************************
> Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
> *******************************************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type video/x-ms-wmv which had a name of milwaukeetools.wmv]

From chad at linuxeg.com  Mon Jul 28 23:21:16 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:21:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque Wrench
References: <488E8EFC.50602@comcast.net>
	<012401c8f135$b79c3e90$6101a8c0@tardis>
Message-ID: <013c01c8f13a$edef4fa0$6101a8c0@tardis>

let me try this way:
http://www.gulfcoastautocrossers.com/milwaukeetools.wmv



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chad on LEG" <chad at linuxeg.com>
To: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>; "Shop-Talk" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Torque Wrench


> Just came across this a day or so ago, your timing
> couldn't have been better. If attachments aren't allowed
> I sent the URL.
> chad
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
> To: "Shop-Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 11:31 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque Wrench
>
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I need a 1/2-inch drive ratchet torque wrench.  Recommendations?
>>
>> TIA,
>> bs
>>
>> -- 
>> *******************************************************************
>> Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
>> *******************************************************************
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type video/x-ms-wmv which had a 
> name of milwaukeetools.wmv]
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 07:15:20 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:15:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <20080729041236.EFBG15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <00d301c8f12c$231c2040$b3457247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<20080729041236.EFBG15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40807290615g6fac43c6ma4592cc8eeddf0b2@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:12 AM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> Anybody remember the "Cadillac" 8-6-4 from a few years back,
>> seemed to work O/K.  "
>
> Yeah, but what I remember is that they almost got sued over them being
> "unsafe".  Had a tendency to turn off all cylinders while rolling down the
> road; or drop into 4 cylinder mode just after you'd pulled out to pass.
>
> And the reduction in fuel consumption was pretty trivial as I recall, only
> about 10% or so.

Dodge is now selling something along those lines in some of its big V8 beasts.
They're better at it then GM was, but the economy gains aren't very big.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jul 29 08:21:03 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:21:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40807290615g6fac43c6ma4592cc8eeddf0b2@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <00d301c8f12c$231c2040$b3457247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<20080729041236.EFBG15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<2400a5d40807290615g6fac43c6ma4592cc8eeddf0b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0K4R008REUJLR041@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

GM is too.  They call theirs "Active Fuel Management".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Fuel_Management

At 09:15 AM 7/29/2008, David Scheidt wrote:

>Dodge is now selling something along those lines in some of its big V8 beasts.
>They're better at it then GM was, but the economy gains aren't very big.
>--
>David Scheidt
>dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 10:25:46 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:25:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <0K4R008REUJLR041@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <00d301c8f12c$231c2040$b3457247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<20080729041236.EFBG15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<2400a5d40807290615g6fac43c6ma4592cc8eeddf0b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<0K4R008REUJLR041@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360807290925n1c606affj67581cbec08a6ae8@mail.gmail.com>

*I followed Steven's link and read about all four of the systems in use to
reduce the effective displacement of engines for economy.  The
electronic/hydraulic complexity of the systems combined with the small
savings to be gained make it sound a dubious development to me.  Two of the
systems even go to the trouble to fit switchable tuned exhaust systems so as
to retain the "full engine sound" . .sheesh.*

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>wrote:

> GM is too.  They call theirs "Active Fuel Management".
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Fuel_Management

From mattw at webtripper.com  Tue Jul 29 13:10:27 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:10:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Hitch for 2009 Toyota Corolla
Message-ID: <1217358627.6100.36.camel@mattw-laptop>

I want to get a hitch for my 2009 Corolla.
Any preference on brands for small hitches?

A quick look at brands it seems like my choices are
Hidden Hitch
Reese
Draw-tite.

I plan on having this vehicle for a while so longevity/quality is
important.

Price doesn't seems to be much of an issue in this size, I see $130 -
$150.

Intended use is towing a jon boat, small utility trailer, vehicle has a
1500lb limit.

Any suggestions for wiring, I really haven't looked into it on this
vehicle yet, but I hate wire splicing/scotch lock connectors.
I would rather use a plug in harness.

Matt Wehland

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jul 29 13:20:28 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:20:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360807290925n1c606affj67581cbec08a6ae8@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <00d301c8f12c$231c2040$b3457247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<20080729041236.EFBG15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<2400a5d40807290615g6fac43c6ma4592cc8eeddf0b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<0K4R008REUJLR041@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<ea2385360807290925n1c606affj67581cbec08a6ae8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0K4S00A688E9HO70@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I'm not accusing anyone here of doing this, but it seems that 
sometimes people misinterpret fuel mileage improvements.  If you're 
getting 10 miles per gallon, and you do something that gives you 11 
miles per gallon, it doesn't sound like much, but it is a 10% improvement.

At 10mpg:

If you drive 10000 miles per year, that's 10000 miles divided by 10 
miles per gallon = 1000 gallons, times $4 per gallon, thats $4000

At 11mpg:

If you drive 10000 miles per year, that's 10000 miles divided by 11 
miles per gallon = 909 gallons, times $4 per gallon, thats $3636

So you saved $364.

At 30 mpg:


If you drive 10000 miles per year, that's 10000 miles divided by 30 
miles per gallon = 333 gallons, times $4 per gallon, thats $1332

At 31 mpg:

If you drive 10000 miles per year, that's 10000 miles divided by 31 
miles per gallon = 323 gallons, times $4 per gallon, thats $1292

So you saved $40.

Bottom line is, one "1mpg" increment is not necessarily equivalent to another.  

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jul 29 13:27:12 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:27:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Hitch for 2009 Toyota Corolla
In-Reply-To: <1217358627.6100.36.camel@mattw-laptop>
References: <1217358627.6100.36.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <0K4S006228PKJP80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I consider all of those to be reputable brands, and I would feel 
comfortable with any of them.  As for wiring, there are kits 
available that just plug into the harness.  No wires cut and you 
couldn't ask for anything easier.  The only trick is, finding one for 
your particular vehicle.  This link shows you some of those kits, but 
2009 corolla is not 
available.  http://www.hitchestogo.com/Toyota_Hitch_Wiring.htm  Maybe 
someone else has one.  Sometimes, if there's a new design it takes 
the aftermarket a little while to catch up.

At 03:10 PM 7/29/2008, Matt Wehland wrote:
>I want to get a hitch for my 2009 Corolla.
>Any preference on brands for small hitches?
>
>A quick look at brands it seems like my choices are
>Hidden Hitch
>Reese
>Draw-tite.
>
>I plan on having this vehicle for a while so longevity/quality is
>important.
>
>Price doesn't seems to be much of an issue in this size, I see $130 -
>$150.
>
>Intended use is towing a jon boat, small utility trailer, vehicle has a
>1500lb limit.
>
>Any suggestions for wiring, I really haven't looked into it on this
>vehicle yet, but I hate wire splicing/scotch lock connectors.
>I would rather use a plug in harness.
>
>Matt Wehland

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jul 29 13:31:22 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:31:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Hitch for 2009 Toyota Corolla
In-Reply-To: <0K4S006228PKJP80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <1217358627.6100.36.camel@mattw-laptop>
	<0K4S006228PKJP80@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <0K4S004VO8WGM670@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Just noticed this at the bottom of the page I linked to:


*If you are installing a hitch on a new vehicle it is possible that 
new wiring kits are available for your vehicle but not yet listed. 
Contact us:  <mailto:atainternet at charter.net>E-mail or call 
864-744-4282 Mon - Fri 8:30 AM-500PM Eastern Time for more info.




At 03:27 PM 7/29/2008, Steven Trovato wrote:
>http://www.hitchestogo.com/Toyota_Hitch_Wiring.htm

From brabel at dlux.net  Tue Jul 29 15:07:25 2008
From: brabel at dlux.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:07:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <0K4S00A688E9HO70@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <00d301c8f12c$231c2040$b3457247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<20080729041236.EFBG15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<2400a5d40807290615g6fac43c6ma4592cc8eeddf0b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<0K4R008REUJLR041@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<ea2385360807290925n1c606affj67581cbec08a6ae8@mail.gmail.com>
	<0K4S00A688E9HO70@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <C6A1257A-8331-411F-A32D-E11B353C73F2@dlux.net>

This is why the Europeans use liters/100 km, or volume/distance,  
rather than distance/volume.

> Bottom line is, one "1mpg" increment is not necessarily equivalent  
> to another.


- Bill Rabel
   Anacortes, WA

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jul 29 16:06:21 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:06:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Hitch for 2009 Toyota Corolla
In-Reply-To: <1217358627.6100.36.camel@mattw-laptop>
Message-ID: <70073.70319.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

About 8 years ago I got a hitch for my '98 Subaru
Outback from JC Whitney.  It turned out to be from
Hidden Hitch, and I have been perfectly satisfied with
it.

Probably the relative quality of different brands of
hitches will vary from vehicle to vehicle, depending
on how well they did the engineering for each vehicle.
 If the manufacturer sells a dealer-installed hitch,
then presumably it was well-designed to fit the car,
and the car was designed to take it.  So I would
expect all aftermarket hitches to be copies of the OEM
one.
but if a car was not designed to take a hitch, the
aftermarket people might have done a good to awful job
of designing a hitch for it.

Has anybody ever seen European car hitches?  They are
pretty common there, because people are less likely to
have a big SUV for hauling stuff.  They always seem to
be of a style that is never used here:  There is a
single curved, tapered, forged arm that curves up and
back from under the rear bumper, and it has the ball
integral with it.

Doug

From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Tue Jul 29 16:38:48 2008
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:38:48 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Hitch for 2009 Toyota Corolla
Message-ID: <c77.2b6a54e6.35c0f5f8@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/29/2008 3:06:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
doug at dougbraun.com writes:

Has  anybody ever seen European car hitches?  They are
pretty common there,  because people are less likely to
have a big SUV for hauling stuff.   They always seem to
be of a style that is never used here:  There is  a
single curved, tapered, forged arm that curves up and
back from under  the rear bumper, and it has the ball
integral with  it.

Doug



Sounds like a device for flipping someone the bird!!
 
Scotty from Hollyweird



**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for 
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.      
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Tue Jul 29 19:00:46 2008
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:00:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <488FBD3E.5050503@snet.net>

That's the great thing about bar stools.

Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
> *Okay, open your minds . . . the guy on the next bar stool opines that on
> his straight six '95 Jeep Cherokee work car,  he is considering removing the
> rocker arms and pushrods on every other cylinder in the firing order and
> running it on three cylinders to save gas..  The closed cylinders would
> resist rotation on compression but rebound on downstroke with little loss
> except friction.  *
> **
> *I'm  thinking this would probably work for some saving but at a steady
> state throttle opening, won't it just require about the same fuel to achieve
> equilibrium with the wind resistance and rolling resistance?  Also, won't
> it freak the ECU when 3 cylinders aren't working?*
> **
> *What do YOU think?*
> **
> *Tony*
> _______________________________________________

From mattw at webtripper.com  Tue Jul 29 21:00:20 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:00:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Hitch for 2009 Toyota Corolla
In-Reply-To: <c77.2b6a54e6.35c0f5f8@aol.com>
References: <c77.2b6a54e6.35c0f5f8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1217386820.6122.13.camel@mattw-laptop>

Is there anything else I should be thinking of getting for a class 1
hitch setup?

Wiring Kit, hitch and ball.

I've never had to buy a hitch before, always had trucks with towing
packages, just get the right size ball and go.


Towing with this little thing sure will be different.

Matt Wehland

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Tue Jul 29 20:59:13 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:59:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <488FBD3E.5050503@snet.net>
References: <ea2385360807281808g4704919dyabe4dc9041d2b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<488FBD3E.5050503@snet.net>
Message-ID: <028901c8f1f0$404f6810$c0ee3830$@mele@usermail.com>

a little more food for thought

BMW 528e
M20 "eta" engine, 2.7 liters, low RPM/ high torque;
designed for fuel economy. 
the write-up discussed how the engineers at BMW targeted the valve train
parasitic drag; used 4 cam bearings instead of 7; lighter valve springs (not
mass, but spring constant), since no "hi rpm float" to worry about; higher
lift (more torque)....35 mpg in 3200 lb 5-series

M10 engine with 3.5 liters, 7 cam bearings, hi rpm, more torque, stiffer
valve springs....26 mpg in same body/ susp/ brakes

M20 "eta" engine in 325e...
about 500 lbs less weight than 528e
37 mpg
this follows rule of thumb of 1-2 % fuel consumption change for every 100
lbs weight

M20 "i" engine in 325i
same M20 engine with 2.5 liters, 7 cam bearings, hi rpm, slightly less
torque, stiffer valve springs....27 mpg in same body/ susp/ brakes
so, approx 25% diff in fuel economy with low-friction design of same engine
in same car....and same number of cylinders working.

these are all cars I own now or in the past...

Another interesting note on friction and pumping losses...
I have a FASCINATING book and DOS program called "PC DYNO"; great reading
for anyone who likes theory behind designs and compromises.  It shatters
quite a few "beliefs" that I grew up with (bore vs stroke, for instance)

and, I dropped my jaw when I read that it takes 250 HP to turn a NASCAR V8
at 8500 rpm.  Put another way, the engine makes 1100 HP, but only 850 end up
at the flywheel; the other 250 is used to turn it [ friction and pump the
air]...

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jul 29 21:07:24 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:07:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
Message-ID: <OF870ECC14.DF0107A0-ON85257496.0011283C-85257496.00112840@mail.megageek.com>

Agreeing with Steve's post about fuel economy improvements, I wanted to add
something.

I got tried of people whining about high gas prices.  So I made an app for
my web site so you can SEE how much it is really costing you.

The site is here...
http://www.megageek.com/gas/Page1.htm
(note, it doesn't work with all browsers.  I made it quick one morning and
I'm not around to fix it.)

The red numbers are adjustable for you to fill in your data.  In most
cases, an almost doubling of fuel prices is less than $1000/year for
average drivers.  The site also compares the extra cost to a few things you
can cut out to balance the extra cost.

As for me, I drive an Explorer.  Being a former police officer, I have a
lead foot.  I was getting about 12 MPG normally.  I started driving slower
and I was able to bring that up to about 18 MPG.  Then, I started
"hypermilaging" (drafting off trucks and staying below the speed limit) and
I can get an average of 22 MPG.

So, there are way better ways to reduce fuel costs.  Didn't someone here
once post about putting a tennis ball under the gas pedal?

Have fun.  3 more weeks until I get to Iraq.


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Jul 29 21:22:10 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:22:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
Message-ID: <OF5D248394.920CA6D7-ON85257496.0012824A-85257496.0012824D@mail.megageek.com>

I just wrote...
>I got tried of people whining about high gas prices.  So I made an app for
>my web site so you can SEE how much it is really costing you.

After re-reading this post, I didn't make it clear that the people that
were complaining were people at work, NOT here.

I am really enjoying the discussion here on this topic and I don't mean to
make it sound like i was refering to someone here.

Did I mention that I'm on about 3 hours of sleep a day out here?

BTW, if any of you have way too much time on your hands, I'm blogging about
my current Iraqi deployment here...

http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2008.nsf

It's nothing earth shattering or anything, but I try to throw in a few
jokes and some pics. (There are some really cool ones when we took the
HumVees into the flooded desert!  I only posted a few on the blog.  I'll
post more when I get home, in only 325 days, 2 hours, 31 minutes, and 26
seconds.)


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Jul 29 21:33:08 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:33:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trailer Hitch for 2009 Toyota Corolla
In-Reply-To: <c77.2b6a54e6.35c0f5f8@aol.com>
References: <c77.2b6a54e6.35c0f5f8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <488FE0F4.7000906@milleredp.com>

> Has  anybody ever seen European car hitches?  They are
> pretty common there,  because people are less likely to
> have a big SUV for hauling stuff.   They always seem to
> be of a style that is never used here:  There is  a
> single curved, tapered, forged arm that curves up and
> back from under  the rear bumper, and it has the ball
> integral with  it.

A lot of them are retractable; we've got a guy locally who retrofitted 
the Euro hitch on his E39 M5 and tows a Beverly Hillbillies-style 
trailer with it.

Since most of the tow vehicles in Europe are unit-structure, it also 
looked to be common for the hitch mechanism on the trailer to have a 
shock-absorbing function.

John.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Jul 30 05:04:26 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:04:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <OF870ECC14.DF0107A0-ON85257496.0011283C-85257496.00112840@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF870ECC14.DF0107A0-ON85257496.0011283C-85257496.00112840@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <E0A9EE74-4CB1-42A8-B3E1-56299146675B@groupwbench.org>

On Jul 29, 2008, at 11:07 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
>
> So, there are way better ways to reduce fuel costs.  Didn't someone  
> here
> once post about putting a tennis ball under the gas pedal?
>
>

I have an '04 WRX. A friend had an '02. She said no matter how gently  
she drove, she never got better than 22mpg. So I never tried.

WHen gas hit $4 I tried. Shift at 2000 rpm, predictive coasting, no  
AC, max 70mph. I was able to get 30 mpg from it. It wasn't fun,  
especially in Boston, but it worked.

jim

From mark at noakes.com  Wed Jul 30 05:13:14 2008
From: mark at noakes.com (Mark Noakes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:13:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
Message-ID: <1770613978.801641217416394854.JavaMail.mail@webmail12>

   I  haven't  been  paying  attention to this thread till now so I don't
   know  what  else  was  said,  but  I've  done what I would call casual
   hypermiling  (keeping it legal) on my 86 Corvette, mildly modified for
   SCCA  Solo2  racing  (street  prepared  category)  and I can get 33mpg
   highway  and  26+ city/highway avg on it, but it is incredibly boring.
   Do  a  web  search  on hypermiling and stick to what is legal and your
   mileage  should go up 30-40% over what you are currently getting...the
   one place where you are stuck is in total stop and go traffic though.
   Mark Noakes

   On Jul 30, 2008, jamesf at groupwbench.org wrote:

     On Jul 29, 2008, at 11:07 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
     >
     >
     >  So,  there  are  way  better  ways to reduce fuel costs.  Didn't
     someone
     > here
     > once post about putting a tennis ball under the gas pedal?
     >
     >
     I  have  an  '04  WRX.  A friend had an '02. She said no matter how
     gently
     she drove, she never got better than 22mpg. So I never tried.
     WHen gas hit $4 I tried. Shift at 2000 rpm, predictive coasting, no

     AC, max 70mph. I was able to get 30 mpg from it. It wasn't fun,
     especially in Boston, but it worked.
     jim
     _______________________________________________
     Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
     You are subscribed as mark at noakes.com
     Shop-talk mailing list
     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
     http://www.team.net/archive

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Jul 30 09:17:28 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:17:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
In-Reply-To: <1770613978.801641217416394854.JavaMail.mail@webmail12>
References: <1770613978.801641217416394854.JavaMail.mail@webmail12>
Message-ID: <0K4T00AH6RW7CKB1@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I would rather thrash a 4 banger econobox than drive a Corvette like 
that.  It's kind of like saving on heating oil by setting your 
thermostat to 55.  That really works too!

At 07:13 AM 7/30/2008, Mark Noakes wrote:
>    I  haven't  been  paying  attention to this thread till now so I don't
>    know  what  else  was  said,  but  I've  done what I would call casual
>    hypermiling  (keeping it legal) on my 86 Corvette, mildly modified for
>    SCCA  Solo2  racing  (street  prepared  category)  and I can get 33mpg
>    highway  and  26+ city/highway avg on it, but it is incredibly boring.
>    Do  a  web  search  on hypermiling and stick to what is legal and your
>    mileage  should go up 30-40% over what you are currently getting...the
>    one place where you are stuck is in total stop and go traffic though.
>    Mark Noakes
>
>    On Jul 30, 2008, jamesf at groupwbench.org wrote:
>
>      On Jul 29, 2008, at 11:07 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >  So,  there  are  way  better  ways to reduce fuel costs.  Didn't
>      someone
>      > here
>      > once post about putting a tennis ball under the gas pedal?
>      >
>      >
>      I  have  an  '04  WRX.  A friend had an '02. She said no matter how
>      gently
>      she drove, she never got better than 22mpg. So I never tried.
>      WHen gas hit $4 I tried. Shift at 2000 rpm, predictive coasting, no
>
>      AC, max 70mph. I was able to get 30 mpg from it. It wasn't fun,
>      especially in Boston, but it worked.
>      jim
>      _______________________________________________
>      Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>      You are subscribed as mark at noakes.com
>      Shop-talk mailing list
>      http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>      http://www.team.net/archive
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at noakes.com  Wed Jul 30 10:17:30 2008
From: mark at noakes.com (Mark Noakes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:17:30 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
Message-ID: <2054023200.844011217434650204.JavaMail.mail@webmail12>

   I  was  mostly  just  trying  to  see  what  I  could do with it as an
   engineering experiment.

   A  C4  vette  will  typically  get  good  gas  mileagte  anyway on the
   interstate...27mpg  with the cruise control set on 70mph while running
   only  1600rpm  and  20-22mpg  typical  city/highway  average  which is
   honesty  good  enough  for me at current gas prices...no big deal. Now
   typical SCCA event is something different...about 5mpg, but I don't do
   those often.
   Mark N

   On Jul 30, 2008, strovato at optonline.net wrote:

     I  would  rather  thrash  a 4 banger econobox than drive a Corvette
     like
     that.  It's kind of like saving on heating oil by setting your
     thermostat to 55.  That really works too!
     At 07:13 AM 7/30/2008, Mark Noakes wrote:
     >    I  haven't  been  paying  attention to this thread till now so
     I don't
     >      know   what   else  was  said,  but  I've  done what I would
     call casual
     >      hypermiling   (keeping  it  legal) on my 86 Corvette, mildly
     modified for
     >      SCCA  Solo2  racing  (street  prepared  category)  and I can
     get 33mpg
     >    highway  and  26+ city/highway avg on it, but it is incredibly
     boring.
     >     Do  a  web  search  on hypermiling and stick to what is legal
     and your
     >      mileage   should  go  up  30-40% over what you are currently
     getting...the
     >     one place where you are stuck is in total stop and go traffic
     though.
     >    Mark Noakes
     >
     >    On Jul 30, 2008, jamesf at groupwbench.org wrote:
     >
     >      On Jul 29, 2008, at 11:07 PM, eric at megageek.com wrote:
     >      >
     >      >
     >       >  So,  there  are  way  better  ways to reduce fuel costs.
      Didn't
     >      someone
     >      > here
     >      > once post about putting a tennis ball under the gas pedal?
     >      >
     >      >
     >         I   have  an  '04  WRX.  A friend had an '02. She said no
     matter how
     >      gently
     >         she  drove,  she  never got better than 22mpg. So I never
     tried.
     >         WHen  gas  hit  $4 I tried. Shift at 2000 rpm, predictive
     coasting, no
     >
     >        AC, max 70mph. I was able to get 30 mpg from it. It wasn't
     fun,
     >      especially in Boston, but it worked.
     >      jim
     >      _______________________________________________
     >      Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
     >      You are subscribed as mark at noakes.com
     >      Shop-talk mailing list
     >      http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
     >      http://www.team.net/archive
     >_______________________________________________
     >Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
     >
     >You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
     >
     >Shop-talk mailing list
     >
     >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
     >
     >http://www.team.net/archive

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Jul 30 16:51:53 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:51:53 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] 6 to 3 fuel saving
Message-ID: <073020082251.19005.4890F08900038C9F00004A3D220702065304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

there was a segment on the radio about this just the other day, just what you noted.  people tend to not want to go from thier 10 mpg truck to a 18 mpg truck, because it's 'only' 18 mpg.  but they're getting an 80% increase in their mpg.  however, they get all excited about going from 30 mpg to 35 mpg--a 17% increase.

basically, people looking to dump suvs weren't because they couldn't get 35 mpg vehicles that fit what they wanted.  but they'd turn up their noses at 22 mpg vehicles that'd do what they wanted.

it was interesting.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>
> I'm not accusing anyone here of doing this, but it seems that 
> sometimes people misinterpret fuel mileage improvements.  If you're 
> getting 10 miles per gallon, and you do something that gives you 11 
> miles per gallon, it doesn't sound like much, but it is a 10% improvement.
> 
> At 10mpg:
> 
> If you drive 10000 miles per year, that's 10000 miles divided by 10 
> miles per gallon = 1000 gallons, times $4 per gallon, thats $4000

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jul 30 18:18:23 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:18:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>

Gang,

Did anyone watch Nova last night (Tue.)?  It was a very interesting show
with Click & Clack about alternative fuel and new/alternative cars.

I was plesantly supprised when they addressed things like Ethynol they
actually said that it's not the beat all end all.  We don't have the land to
grow enough corn for it.

All in all, an interesting show.  However, there were several things that
I'd have liked to see them go a little more in depth in.  But you can only
do so much in a 1 hr. show.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From bill at gingerich.us  Wed Jul 30 20:32:10 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:32:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>
Message-ID: <EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>

John,

I've actually watched that episode twice - it was on several months ago here
in OKC.  I found the idea of creating a micro-organism that can digest and
ferment corn stalks (and other less desirable bio matter) into ethanol to be
very interesting.  One of my big questions is how much energy does it take
to convert corn to ethanol?  I mean the whole thing - tractors and
fertilizer to grow corn, the harvesting and transportation to the plant, and
the actual conversion.  Do we really save anything?  I just don't know.

An interesting tidbit I recently discovered.  Oklahoma has a law that says
anyone who works on an "alternative fuel" vehicle (hybrid, electric, LNG,
LP, fuel cell, whatever) has to have a special certification that can cost
over $1000 to get.  Each violation is punishable by a $1000 fine and/or 1
year in jail.  This applies to anyone, even if I'm working on my own
vehicle.  So if I wanted to build an electric Spitfire, I could be fined and
thrown in jail.  I know hybrids use batteries with voltages in the hundreds,
so safety can be an issue.  The language of the law just seems a bit broad
to me.  Anyway, I thought it was interesting.  

73

BillG
Newalla, OK
KA0GOG



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
John T. Blair
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:18 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show

Gang,

Did anyone watch Nova last night (Tue.)?  It was a very interesting show
with Click & Clack about alternative fuel and new/alternative cars.

I was plesantly supprised when they addressed things like Ethynol they
actually said that it's not the beat all end all.  We don't have the land to
grow enough corn for it.

All in all, an interesting show.  However, there were several things that
I'd have liked to see them go a little more in depth in.  But you can only
do so much in a 1 hr. show.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 30 21:26:05 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:26:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>
	<EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W2782780E92FE628CD1E5E3E17C0@phx.gbl>

I wonder if you can change a tire etc.?Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B
TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves!> From:
bill at gingerich.us> To: jblair1948 at cox.net; shop-talk at autox.team.net> Date:
Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:32:10 -0500> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show> >
John,> > I've actually watched that episode twice - it was on several months
ago here> in OKC. I found the idea of creating a micro-organism that can
digest and> ferment corn stalks (and other less desirable bio matter) into
ethanol to be> very interesting. One of my big questions is how much energy
does it take> to convert corn to ethanol? I mean the whole thing - tractors
and> fertilizer to grow corn, the harvesting and transportation to the plant,
and> the actual conversion. Do we really save anything? I just don't know.> >
An interesting tidbit I recently discovered. Oklahoma has a law that says>
anyone who works on an "alternative fuel" vehicle (hybrid, electric, LNG,> LP,
fuel cell, whatever) has to have a special certification that can cost> over
$1000 to get. Each violation is punishable by a $1000 fine and/or 1> year in
jail. This applies to anyone, even if I'm working on my own> vehicle. So if I
wanted to build an electric Spitfire, I could be fined and> thrown in jail. I
know hybrids use batteries with voltages in the hundreds,> so safety can be an
issue. The language of the law just seems a bit broad> to me. Anyway, I
thought it was interesting. > > 73> > BillG> Newalla, OK> KA0GOG> > > >
-----Original Message-----> From:
shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net>
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of> John
T. Blair> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:18 PM> To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show> > Gang,> > Did
anyone watch Nova last night (Tue.)? It was a very interesting show> with
Click & Clack about alternative fuel and new/alternative cars.> > I was
plesantly supprised when they addressed things like Ethynol they> actually
said that it's not the beat all end all. We don't have the land to> grow
enough corn for it.> > All in all, an interesting show. However, there were
several things that> I'd have liked to see them go a little more in depth in.
But you can only> do so much in a 1 hr. show.> > John> > John T. Blair WA4OHZ
email: jblair1948 at cox.net> Va. Beach, Va> Phone: (757) 495-8229> > 48 TR1800
48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)> 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77
Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III> 65 Rambler Classic> > Morgan:
www.team.net/www/morgan> Bricklin: www.bricklin.org> > If you can read this -
Thank a teacher!> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as
rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk> >
http://www.team.net/archive

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Wed Jul 30 21:31:56 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (fred thomas)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:31:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>
Message-ID: <01f001c8f2bd$fc638360$f94d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

In 1923 a gentleman went before "The Congress of The United States" and 
asked for "$250,000" to search/explore for a alternative fuel other than oil 
as one day the US would be held captive for this resource, he was turned 
down flat and told in so many words he did not know what he was talking 
about, just think folks this was 85 years ago, his name  == Henry Ford==. 
"FT" 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Jul 30 21:58:20 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:58:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>
	<EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>
Message-ID: <ea2385360807302058s5c48bfb3j8ecb2737ca95d1c7@mail.gmail.com>

*If I lived in Oklahoma, I'd be checking this out:*

*http://www.cngvehiclesforsale.com/*
*If it's to be believed, one can buy a used CNG vehicle and run it on $.91 a
gallon fuel and there are lots of refuel stations in Okla . . *
**
*Tony

*
On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 9:32 PM, Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:

> John,
>
> I've actually watched that episode twice - it was on several months ago
> here
> in OKC.  I found the idea of creating a micro-organism that can digest and
> ferment corn stalks (and other less desirable bio matter) into ethanol to
> be
> very interesting.  One of my big questions is how much energy does it take
> to convert corn to ethanol?  I mean the whole thing - tractors and
> fertilizer to grow corn, the harvesting and transportation to the plant,
> and
> the actual conversion.  Do we really save anything?  I just don't know.
>
> An interesting tidbit I recently discovered.  Oklahoma has a law that says
> anyone who works on an "alternative fuel" vehicle (hybrid, electric, LNG,
> LP, fuel cell, whatever) has to have a special certification that can cost
> over $1000 to get.  Each violation is punishable by a $1000 fine and/or 1
> year in jail.  This applies to anyone, even if I'm working on my own
> vehicle.  So if I wanted to build an electric Spitfire, I could be fined
> and
> thrown in jail.  I know hybrids use batteries with voltages in the
> hundreds,
> so safety can be an issue.  The language of the law just seems a bit broad
> to me.  Anyway, I thought it was interesting.
>
> 73
>
> BillG
> Newalla, OK
> KA0GOG
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill <shop-talk-bounces%2Bbill>=gingerich.us@
> autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> John T. Blair
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:18 PM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
>
> Gang,
>
> Did anyone watch Nova last night (Tue.)?  It was a very interesting show
> with Click & Clack about alternative fuel and new/alternative cars.
>
> I was plesantly supprised when they addressed things like Ethynol they
> actually said that it's not the beat all end all.  We don't have the land
> to
> grow enough corn for it.
>
> All in all, an interesting show.  However, there were several things that
> I'd have liked to see them go a little more in depth in.  But you can only
> do so much in a 1 hr. show.
>
> John
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Jul 31 03:35:13 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:35:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>
	<EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>
	<BAY123-W2782780E92FE628CD1E5E3E17C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> An interesting tidbit I recently discovered. Oklahoma has a law that says>
> anyone who works on an "alternative fuel" vehicle (hybrid, electric, LNG,> 
> LP,
> fuel cell, whatever) has to have a special certification that can cost> 
> over
> $1000 to get. Each violation is punishable by a $1000 fine and/or 1> year 
> in
> jail. This applies to anyone, even if I'm working on my own> vehicle. So 
> if I
> wanted to build an electric Spitfire, I could be fined and> thrown in 
> jail.

I'm going to call BS on this one.  I just went digging around in Oklahoma 
laws for fuels, vehicles, vehicle repairs and such and found absolutely 
nothing like this claim.  In fact, it's exactly the opposite. 

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jul 31 04:33:47 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:33:47 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
Message-ID: <20080731.063347.5357.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

I am having difficulty locating an adapter plate that will allow me to mount a
cover on a standard nail in blue outlet box.  The folks at Lowes & Home Depot
look at me like I have 3 heads when I ask but I know I have seen them before.
Any guidance from the list?
TIA,
Matt in GA
____________________________________________________________
Click to create your dream Las Vegas vacation now.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nKfcK7oSQCOyCqVcuhXsc1mz6I
jeKxLEOSG3d2NRBziH04O/

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jul 31 05:14:37 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:14:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I'm going to call BS on this one.  I just went digging around
> in Oklahoma laws for fuels, vehicles, vehicle repairs and
> such and found absolutely nothing like this claim.

Check out the "Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act", which
provides :
>>>
'74-130.20.  Work of technician by noncertified person.

After September 1, 1991, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform the
work or offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an
alternative fuels equipment technician until such person has qualified and
is certified as an alternative fuels equipment technician.  Beginning
September 1, 1995, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform work or
offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an alternative
fuels compression technician until such person has qualified and is
certified as an alternative fuels compression technician.  Beginning
November 1, 1998, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform the work or
offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an electric
vehicle technician until such person has qualified and is certified as an
electric vehicle technician.
<<<

Suitable definitions are included :
>>>
2.  "Alternative fuels equipment technician" means any person who installs,
modifies, repairs or renovates equipment used in the conversion of any
engines to engines fueled by alternative fuels. This includes originally
equipped manufactured engines dedicated to operate on an alternative fuel;
<<<
and
>>>
"Electric vehicle technician" means any person who installs, modifies,
repairs, performs maintenance on, or renovates onboard charging systems,
motors, controllers, power sources, or the drive systems of vehicles powered
by electricity that is greater than eighty (80) volts.
<<<

Let there be no doubt, OK is an oil state.  This last provision is
particularly offensive, since it could be reasonably interpreted to include
even a 12v kiddie car with a charger operated on house current.

Above quotes copied from the OK Legislature web site at
http://www.lsb.state.ok.us/

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jul 31 05:30:05 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:30:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
In-Reply-To: <20080731.063347.5357.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20080731113005.GMXZ18001.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I am having difficulty locating an adapter plate that will 
> allow me to mount a cover on a standard nail in blue outlet 
> box.  The folks at Lowes & Home Depot look at me like I have 
> 3 heads when I ask but I know I have seen them before.
> Any guidance from the list?

Beats me too.  My "blue nail-in outlet boxes" take covers directly, no
adapter required.  Just put one in the attic last month, to house a splice
where wires had to be rerouted around the new access ladder.

Randall

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jul 31 05:46:23 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:46:23 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
Message-ID: <20080731.074623.26509.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

The blue boxes I have will accept an outlet or a switch, but the covers screw
into the switch or outlet.  I am running wires into the box from the living
space and since it is a flat cable, was going to cover the box with a switch
plate cover and route the cable through the rectangular hole. Blank covers
will screw right to the box but I will have to cut a hole in it and come up
with a grommet.  I guess that will be easier than chasing down the adaptor.


-- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I am having difficulty locating an adapter plate that will
> allow me to mount a cover on a standard nail in blue outlet
> box.  The folks at Lowes & Home Depot look at me like I have
> 3 heads when I ask but I know I have seen them before.
> Any guidance from the list?

Beats me too.  My "blue nail-in outlet boxes" take covers directly, no
adapter required.  Just put one in the attic last month, to house a splice
where wires had to be rerouted around the new access ladder.

Randall
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

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From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul 31 05:52:19 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:52:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net>
	<EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080731075024.01fddf88@cox.net>

At 10:32 PM 7/30/2008, Bill Gingerich wrote:


>...An interesting tidbit I recently discovered.  Oklahoma has a law that says
>anyone who works on an "alternative fuel" vehicle (hybrid, electric, LNG,
>LP, fuel cell, whatever) has to have a special certification that can cost
>over $1000 to get.  Each violation is punishable by a $1000 fine and/or 1
>year in jail.

Bill,

Wow.  I find it unusual that they'd have a law like that.  But then 
again we might
have the same thing here.  Never looked into it.  I thought anyone could play
with anything they wanted like that,  especially the Bio-fuels.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Jul 31 05:58:13 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:58:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
In-Reply-To: <20080731.074623.26509.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080731.074623.26509.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <FB843594CD964F05A850ECEE6D6EDF83@OwnerPC>

Matt,

they make a flat metal insert for boxes that would hold a single  20 amp 
receptacle in a standard sized box... like for an window air conditioner... 
H.D. and Lowes carry them I know.  that should screw into the box threads 
then your cover would screw into that adapter.

worst case is take a cheap switch and destroy it for the mounting strip


john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt" <mbarre at juno.com>
To: <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate


> The blue boxes I have will accept an outlet or a switch, but the covers 
> screw
> into the switch or outlet.  I am running wires into the box from the 
> living
> space and since it is a flat cable, was going to cover the box with a 
> switch
> plate cover and route the cable through the rectangular hole. Blank covers
> will screw right to the box but I will have to cut a hole in it and come 
> up
> with a grommet.  I guess that will be easier than chasing down the 
> adaptor.
>
>
> -- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> I am having difficulty locating an adapter plate that will
>> allow me to mount a cover on a standard nail in blue outlet
>> box.  The folks at Lowes & Home Depot look at me like I have
>> 3 heads when I ask but I know I have seen them before.
>> Any guidance from the list?
>
> Beats me too.  My "blue nail-in outlet boxes" take covers directly, no
> adapter required.  Just put one in the attic last month, to house a splice
> where wires had to be rerouted around the new access ladder.
>
> Randall
> You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
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> Visa, MasterCard, AMEX & Discover. Compare Offers & Apply Online. Click 
> here!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2HXFKwJZHcejxja2wuki9Xcr4
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> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
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From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jul 31 06:00:10 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:00:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
In-Reply-To: <20080731.074623.26509.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20080731120010.RVAH15817.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Blank 
> covers will screw right to the box but I will have to cut a 
> hole in it and come up with a grommet.  

Oh, I see.  What you want is a cover with a knockout, plus a standard
connector.
71695K22 plus 7798K41 or 7963K21 at
http://www.mcmaster.com/

Randall

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Jul 31 06:08:48 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:08:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling with a dremel
Message-ID: <42CA120F7BF040B081A33D316CC6005C@OwnerPC>

My daughter is into scrapbooking   BIG TIME.  in the past, she's brought me
sheets of acrylic and wanted holes drilled in them for mounting various
'stuff'.  Dad dutifully does them...slowly drilling and trying not to crack or
break her precious scrap booking materials...

Yesterday she asked if I had a Dremel tool and could she use it... after some
discussion she said she wanted to use it for drilling the holes in acrylic so
I wouldn't have to do it...

other than the bit size limit of about 1/8"  doesn't the dremel turn a bit
fast even at the low speed for drilling ??? especially in plastic ???

anyone use one for small drilling jobs ??

thanks
John



http://usawakeup.org/
it's worth the time to read it

From mwhart47 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 31 06:22:35 2008
From: mwhart47 at yahoo.com (mike hart)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:22:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
In-Reply-To: <20080731.074623.26509.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <650496.59201.qm@web56012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Ask for a handy box single gang blank cover with a 1/2" knock-out. Mike
--- On Thu, 7/31/08, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:

> From: Matt <mbarre at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
> To: tr3driver at ca.rr.com
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 5:46 AM
> The blue boxes I have will accept an outlet or a switch, but
> the covers screw
> into the switch or outlet.  I am running wires into the box
> from the living
> space and since it is a flat cable, was going to cover the
> box with a switch
> plate cover and route the cable through the rectangular
> hole. Blank covers
> will screw right to the box but I will have to cut a hole
> in it and come up
> with a grommet.  I guess that will be easier than chasing
> down the adaptor.
> 
> 
> -- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> > I am having difficulty locating an adapter plate that
> will
> > allow me to mount a cover on a standard nail in blue
> outlet
> > box.  The folks at Lowes & Home Depot look at me
> like I have
> > 3 heads when I ask but I know I have seen them before.
> > Any guidance from the list?
> 
> Beats me too.  My "blue nail-in outlet boxes"
> take covers directly, no
> adapter required.  Just put one in the attic last month, to
> house a splice
> where wires had to be rerouted around the new access
> ladder.
> 
> Randall
> You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Visa, MasterCard, AMEX & Discover. Compare Offers &
> Apply Online. Click here!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2HXFKwJZHcejxja2wuki9Xcr4
> N3kG5V9ZiecLyuJP232ke/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as mwhart47 at yahoo.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
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> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jul 31 06:27:06 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:27:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling with a dremel
In-Reply-To: <42CA120F7BF040B081A33D316CC6005C@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <20080731122706.PSCI9085.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> other than the bit size limit of about 1/8"  doesn't the 
> dremel turn a bit fast even at the low speed for drilling ??? 
> especially in plastic ???

That has certainly been my experience.  Basically winds up melting a hole
rather than drilling it.  Which may not be such a bad thing if the
appearance of the hole isn't important.

I bought my late wife the smallest B&D cordless drill, which seemed to work
well for her purposes and didn't cost too much.  I think that and the little
plastic drill index only cost about $50 total; but of course that was a few
years ago.

Randall

From shochschild at att.net  Thu Jul 31 07:12:50 2008
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:12:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling with a dremel
In-Reply-To: <42CA120F7BF040B081A33D316CC6005C@OwnerPC>
References: <42CA120F7BF040B081A33D316CC6005C@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <592ED69154444E0D915F5F28938766A5@Toshiba>

get her a $50 drill press from Harbor Freight, and put it in your shop --  
more reasons to be together, easy intro to 'real' tools, and in this case, 
exactly the right tool for the job, because you can buy the right bit, etc.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:08 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling with a dremel


> My daughter is into scrapbooking   BIG TIME.  in the past, she's brought 
> me
> sheets of acrylic and wanted holes drilled in them for mounting various
> 'stuff'.  Dad dutifully does them...slowly drilling and trying not to 
> crack or
> break her precious scrap booking materials...
>
> Yesterday she asked if I had a Dremel tool and could she use it... after 
> some
> discussion she said she wanted to use it for drilling the holes in acrylic 
> so
> I wouldn't have to do it...
>
> other than the bit size limit of about 1/8"  doesn't the dremel turn a bit
> fast even at the low speed for drilling ??? especially in plastic ???
>
> anyone use one for small drilling jobs ??
>
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
> http://usawakeup.org/
> it's worth the time to read it
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Jul 31 07:31:47 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:31:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
References: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <002501c8f311$c86dece0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> Check out the "Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act" ...

Thanks, that's what I was missing.  That title.  Interestingly I was on the 
Oklahoma government Department of Central Services web page and still didn't 
find it by searching.

There's some weirdness on applicability, as there are a number of 
alternative fuel vehicles clubs and electric vehicle clubs both in Oklahoma 
or with members in Oklahoma, and nary a mention of this act or any 
difficulties with converting their own vehicles.  There's nothing in the act 
that explicitly exempts private individuals, though it is clearly aimed at 
commercial ventures.

Chasing around further, I found nothing about this act for companies in 
Oklahoma doing conversions commercially, or various alternative fuel fleets. 
No mention of the required window sticker, no picture of this sticker on any 
of the cars.

So I go chasing around even further, and other than the DCS documents, I 
cannot find any mention of this law/regulation/code at all, especially from 
an enforcement perspective.  Further, Oklahoma has tax credits for people 
converting vehicles, and a number of government sponsored alternative fuel 
vehicle fleets and programs.

I'm not in Oklahoma, so it's not my axe to grind.  But I rather suspect this 
is one of those laws that is ignored, unless someone forces the issue.  Much 
like our historic tag laws here in Maryland.

That said, there is something to be said for the notion of making sure 
people do the conversion right.  Not that I support a law governing it, but 
the messes people can make doing things like this, and then gift it to 
others.  Be the recipient of the gift a fireman, an accident victim or a 
customer. 

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Jul 31 09:18:35 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:18:35 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] drilling with a dremel
Message-ID: <073120081518.25893.4891D7CB000A19500000652522165258069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

Hansen makes/made a special drill bit for Plexiglas.  I bought one decades ago and it still works fine.  Don't use it for anything but plastic.  It is very pointed and has about a zero-degree attack angle.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From mbarre at juno.com  Thu Jul 31 11:14:33 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:14:33 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate
Message-ID: <20080731.131433.22747.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

Thanks Gents!  Several great solutions.
Matt

-- "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
Matt,

they make a flat metal insert for boxes that would hold a single  20 amp
receptacle in a standard sized box... like for an window air conditioner...
H.D. and Lowes carry them I know.  that should screw into the box threads
then your cover would screw into that adapter.

worst case is take a cheap switch and destroy it for the mounting strip


john
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt" <mbarre at juno.com>
To: <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] electrical box plate


> The blue boxes I have will accept an outlet or a switch, but the covers
> screw
> into the switch or outlet.  I am running wires into the box from the
> living
> space and since it is a flat cable, was going to cover the box with a
> switch
> plate cover and route the cable through the rectangular hole. Blank covers
> will screw right to the box but I will have to cut a hole in it and come
> up
> with a grommet.  I guess that will be easier than chasing down the
> adaptor.
>
>
> -- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> I am having difficulty locating an adapter plate that will
>> allow me to mount a cover on a standard nail in blue outlet
>> box.  The folks at Lowes & Home Depot look at me like I have
>> 3 heads when I ask but I know I have seen them before.
>> Any guidance from the list?
>
> Beats me too.  My "blue nail-in outlet boxes" take covers directly, no
> adapter required.  Just put one in the attic last month, to house a splice
> where wires had to be rerouted around the new access ladder.
>
> Randall
> You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Visa, MasterCard, AMEX & Discover. Compare Offers & Apply Online. Click
> here!
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2HXFKwJZHcejxja2wuki9Xcr4
> N3kG5V9ZiecLyuJP232ke/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
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>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jul 31 12:19:24 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:19:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <002501c8f311$c86dece0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<002501c8f311$c86dece0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080731141309.01cce688@cox.net>

Speaking of that show, anyone know much about carbon fiber?

There was a company in CO that was designing a very strong light
car with something like 14 body panels that were to be glued together.
They are using carbon fiber for the panels.

There was a movie out, within the last year or so, that feature the private
collection of the film maker.  They were all exotics.  After the movie was
finished, as some sort of a promotion for it, they sponcered something like
an autocross.  One of the actors in the movie was driving a Ferrari owned
by the file maker.  Coming into a turn, the driver looses it and hits a jersey
wall.  It didn't look like too bad a crash and if it had been a regular car, it
looked like it should have been repairable.  But they said it totaled the
Ferarri - supposedly a $1,000,000 car!

My understand was that the car was carbon fiber, and the shock of the
impact was transfered through the body and trashed most of the strucutral
pats of the car.

Now my question is this:  Is this correct?  If so, I don't see carbon fiber as
a material for the main body/structural components of a car.  This would
mean that most wrecks were then totals for ther cars.  This should make
insurance go through the ceiling, as if they aren't high enough already.

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From whesr at iglou.com  Thu Jul 31 12:29:57 2008
From: whesr at iglou.com (Bill Engle Sr)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:29:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080731141309.01cce688@cox.net>
References: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<002501c8f311$c86dece0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080731141309.01cce688@cox.net>
Message-ID: <E1KOd4P-0002cy-GE@iglou.com>

   No  that  is not correct.  Carbon fiber breaks it does not bend.  That
   whole  thing  was a publicity stunt including the wreck.  Rest assured
   that  it has been repaired and is driving around.  Fixing it would not
   be cheap, but not $1 million.
   Bill
   At 02:19 PM 7/31/2008, John T. Blair wrote:

     Speaking of that show, anyone know much about carbon fiber?
     There was a company in CO that was designing a very strong light
     car  with  something  like  14  body  panels  that were to be glued
     together.
     They are using carbon fiber for the panels.
     There was a movie out, within the last year or so, that feature the
     private
     collection  of  the  film maker.  They were all exotics.  After the
     movie was
     finished,  as  some  sort  of  a  promotion  for it, they sponcered
     something like
     an autocross.  One of the actors in the movie was driving a Ferrari
     owned
     by  the  file  maker.  Coming into a turn, the driver looses it and
     hits a jersey
     wall.   It  didn't  look  like too bad a crash and if it had been a
     regular car, it
     looked  like  it  should  have  been  repairable.  But they said it
     totaled the
     Ferarri - supposedly a $1,000,000 car!
     My  understand  was that the car was carbon fiber, and the shock of
     the
     impact  was  transfered  through  the  body and trashed most of the
     strucutral
     pats of the car.
     Now  my  question  is  this:   Is this correct?  If so, I don't see
     carbon fiber as
     a  material for the main body/structural components of a car.  This
     would
     mean  that most wrecks were then totals for ther cars.  This should
     make
     insurance  go  through  the  ceiling, as if they aren't high enough
     already.
     John

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 31 12:51:44 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:51:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <mailman.20651.1217503787.1200.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <389537.21748.qm@web54301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I think the movie was "Redline"; I'm pretty sure the actor was Eddie Griffen (comedian, and I don't think known for his driving prowness).  I don't know whether or not the accident was planned, but he basically understeered the car (Enzo) and plowed into the barrier; it was very ugly to see that car hit a wall (youtube it).  This happened around the same time that rich idiot totalled his Enzo at high speed in Malibu, then scurried off and claimed he had lent it to someone else.  In that accident, the front and rear subframes were ripped off the car, leaving the cockpit intact.  I believe the cockpit is autoclaved as one complete unit, so if the movie car were damaged badly enough, they'd have to strip it and replace the whole thing?

BTW, the movie completely sucked; even the exotic cars were not enough to save it.....

From bill at gingerich.us  Thu Jul 31 13:25:29 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:25:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net><EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2><BAY123-W2782780E92FE628CD1E5E3E17C0@phx.gbl>
	<001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <D2993EE502054EAD9EC128A7C0E0FC24@shack2>

Nolan,

You can call it BS if you like, but I stand by my statements.  I'd be
interested in reading what you found.  There was an article in one of the
local papers in OKC.  It did state what I said, and had an interview with
the author of the law.  Unfortunately, I took the recycling to the drop off
site on Tuesday, and that paper was in the pile.  I know this message won't
change your mind, but I am smart enough to know what I read.

BillG
Newalla, OK  



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Nolan
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:35 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show

> An interesting tidbit I recently discovered. Oklahoma has a law that says>
> anyone who works on an "alternative fuel" vehicle (hybrid, electric, LNG,>

> LP,
> fuel cell, whatever) has to have a special certification that can cost> 
> over
> $1000 to get. Each violation is punishable by a $1000 fine and/or 1> year 
> in
> jail. This applies to anyone, even if I'm working on my own> vehicle. So 
> if I
> wanted to build an electric Spitfire, I could be fined and> thrown in 
> jail.

I'm going to call BS on this one.  I just went digging around in Oklahoma 
laws for fuels, vehicles, vehicle repairs and such and found absolutely 
nothing like this claim.  In fact, it's exactly the opposite. 

From bill at gingerich.us  Thu Jul 31 13:34:37 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:34:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <165F0F568ACF48DDBD2ED738D9EBFAA3@shack2>

Randall,

I appreciate the references you've included.  Since I have essentially been
called a liar, I'm glad to see the details are essentially as I reported
them.  The story I read did not include the dates of the legislation, so I
was unaware that the law had been in effect for that long.  The story did
state that the language of the law is vague enough that it could be applied
to a private party working on their own vehicle.  I did forget the 80 volt
specification in my original comment.

I've only lived in OK for 18 months, and am still learning what the laws are
around here.  Each day can be an adventure.

BillG
Newalla, OK



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Randall
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:15 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show

> I'm going to call BS on this one.  I just went digging around
> in Oklahoma laws for fuels, vehicles, vehicle repairs and
> such and found absolutely nothing like this claim.

Check out the "Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act", which
provides :
>>>
'74-130.20.  Work of technician by noncertified person.

After September 1, 1991, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform the
work or offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an
alternative fuels equipment technician until such person has qualified and
is certified as an alternative fuels equipment technician.  Beginning
September 1, 1995, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform work or
offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an alternative
fuels compression technician until such person has qualified and is
certified as an alternative fuels compression technician.  Beginning
November 1, 1998, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform the work or
offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an electric
vehicle technician until such person has qualified and is certified as an
electric vehicle technician.
<<<

Suitable definitions are included :
>>>
2.  "Alternative fuels equipment technician" means any person who installs,
modifies, repairs or renovates equipment used in the conversion of any
engines to engines fueled by alternative fuels. This includes originally
equipped manufactured engines dedicated to operate on an alternative fuel;
<<<
and
>>>
"Electric vehicle technician" means any person who installs, modifies,
repairs, performs maintenance on, or renovates onboard charging systems,
motors, controllers, power sources, or the drive systems of vehicles powered
by electricity that is greater than eighty (80) volts.
<<<

Let there be no doubt, OK is an oil state.  This last provision is
particularly offensive, since it could be reasonably interpreted to include
even a 12v kiddie car with a charger operated on house current.

Above quotes copied from the OK Legislature web site at
http://www.lsb.state.ok.us/

Randall

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Thu Jul 31 19:00:05 2008
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:00:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080731141309.01cce688@cox.net>
References: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<002501c8f311$c86dece0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080731141309.01cce688@cox.net>
Message-ID: <48926015.2010209@comcast.net>

The good thing about new designs is that the vehicle dissipates and redirects 
all the energy and the occupants walk away.

I do know that carbon fiber is a very strong fiber and with proper adhesives can 
be formed into very strong and light structural panels.  But proper design of a 
vehicle today requires that the vehicle sacrifice itself.

I think most insurance companies would rather replace a $250,000 car than pay 
the millions it takes to keep a human vegetable alive until the lawyers have 
finished their feeding frenzy.  Of course, they'd really rather not pay 
anything, so your rates will probably go up and you'll never collect anyway.

Donald.

John T. Blair wrote:
> Speaking of that show, anyone know much about carbon fiber?
> 
> There was a company in CO that was designing a very strong light
> car with something like 14 body panels that were to be glued together.
> They are using carbon fiber for the panels.
> 
> There was a movie out, within the last year or so, that feature the private
> collection of the film maker.  They were all exotics.  After the movie was
> finished, as some sort of a promotion for it, they sponcered something like
> an autocross.  One of the actors in the movie was driving a Ferrari owned
> by the file maker.  Coming into a turn, the driver looses it and hits a jersey
> wall.  It didn't look like too bad a crash and if it had been a regular car, it
> looked like it should have been repairable.  But they said it totaled the
> Ferarri - supposedly a $1,000,000 car!
> 
> My understand was that the car was carbon fiber, and the shock of the
> impact was transfered through the body and trashed most of the strucutral
> pats of the car.
> 
> Now my question is this:  Is this correct?  If so, I don't see carbon fiber as
> a material for the main body/structural components of a car.  This would
> mean that most wrecks were then totals for ther cars.  This should make
> insurance go through the ceiling, as if they aren't high enough already.
> 
> John

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Jul 31 19:33:58 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:33:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net><EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2><BAY123-W2782780E92FE628CD1E5E3E17C0@phx.gbl>
	<001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<D2993EE502054EAD9EC128A7C0E0FC24@shack2>
Message-ID: <001301c8f376$abc0aa00$2f01a8c0@CPQ12949640186>

Shesh,

I never called you a liar Bill, and I never said you can't read.  I called 
BS on the information itself.  I'm sorry you feel it was a personal attack, 
it wasn't.

My sources I already elaborated on previously.  Oklahoma laws, etc.  Read 
what I wrote, I spelled it out.  And if you would kindly read what I wrote, 
you'd notice I thanked Randal for finding the proper law citation.  In fact, 
you might even notice that I immediately went from calling BS to completely 
acknowledging that the law exists.  Enough to make it seem that I, er, 
changed my mind.  ;-)

Like I said in the message that you apparently didn't read, while I'm sure 
the law is real (it is), it doesn't appear to be enforced.  I found electric 
vehicle clubs in Oklahoma, and nary a mention of this with their converted 
cars.  Not one of them showing the windshield sticker the law requires.  I 
found alternative fuel vehicles in Oklahoma, same thing.  I found companies 
in Oklahoma making EV's and various conversions, with no mention of this 
law, and not a single windshield sticker on any of the vehicles shown.

I'm sorry you got so bent out of shape and feel so personally attacked.  You 
weren't.  I doubted the accuracy of the story (heavens, to think I would 
ever doubt a news story or something someone said on the internet!) after 
being unable to find any substantiation of it on my own.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us>
To: "'Nolan'" <opposumking at verizon.net>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show


> Nolan,
>
> You can call it BS if you like, but I stand by my statements.  I'd be
> interested in reading what you found.  There was an article in one of the
> local papers in OKC.  It did state what I said, and had an interview with
> the author of the law.  Unfortunately, I took the recycling to the drop 
> off
> site on Tuesday, and that paper was in the pile.  I know this message 
> won't
> change your mind, but I am smart enough to know what I read.

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Thu Jul 31 21:12:07 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C. Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:12:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers
Message-ID: <C4B7F747.9695%kennedybc@comcast.net>

I have a cottage on a lake. Water level is down about 2 feet. I want to put
in a deck ~20x16' and a pole barn type garage about 20x20'. Question is what
do I use for footers? People have told me that normal 12' cement footers
with a 4x6" post will sink and heave. I'm in MI so the freeze/thaw has a
tendency to pop things out of the ground. I'm thinking something like a flat
rebar reinforced concrete pad might be better.

Appreciate any thoughts.

Brian Kennedy

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Jul 31 21:34:55 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:34:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers
In-Reply-To: <C4B7F747.9695%kennedybc@comcast.net>
References: <C4B7F747.9695%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <0K4W009QQKMCJUK0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

You know, I can give you my opinion from here in NY, but I think this 
is something that you really want local expertise on.  You can't be 
the first one to ever build in that area.  Local contractors must 
know how it is done.  I know if I wanted to build those things, I 
would have to go to my building dept for a permit.  I would have to 
have the footings specified the way they want, and they're not shy 
about telling me so.

At 11:12 PM 7/31/2008, Brian C. Kennedy wrote:
>I have a cottage on a lake. Water level is down about 2 feet. I want to put
>in a deck ~20x16' and a pole barn type garage about 20x20'. Question is what
>do I use for footers? People have told me that normal 12' cement footers
>with a 4x6" post will sink and heave. I'm in MI so the freeze/thaw has a
>tendency to pop things out of the ground. I'm thinking something like a flat
>rebar reinforced concrete pad might be better.

From mark at bradakis.com  Thu Jul 31 22:02:02 2008
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:02:02 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <48926015.2010209@comcast.net>
References: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<002501c8f311$c86dece0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<6.2.5.6.1.20080731141309.01cce688@cox.net>
	<48926015.2010209@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <48928ABA.205@bradakis.com>

> The good thing about new designs is that the vehicle dissipates and redirects 
> all the energy and the occupants walk away.
>
>   
Well, not always walk away, but close.  A couple of years ago as part
of activities related to his new race track here in Utah, Larry Miller
put together an event called Utah Fast Pass.  Basically a tour of the
state for high rollers and their exotics.  3 days of driving with an
autocross one afternoon and the high speed section the next day.
I was part of the road events crew, basically we drove around the
state looking for suitable sections of long stretches of road free of
most hazards.  We ended up using a piece of decent two lane
highway with a 13 mile  top speed section and a  couple miles
of cool down.  Near the end was a state trooper with a radar gun who
would write a "ticket" for the speed he recorded, and the drivers paid
the "fine" at the banquet by donating that many dollars to the charity
for which this was a benefit.

Geez, enough background already.  So the appointed hour comes
for the high speed day and we start folks off at various intervals.
The last car to get a speed was a RUF prepped Porsche that hit
197.something.  Next in line was a fellow with a Ferarri Enzo,
a car worth about 1.3 million.  Well, at least it was at the start.
He really wanted to be the first to go over 200.

About 10 miles into it, apparently he crested a small rise, probably
doing 180 - 190 at the time.  I was working at the starting line, I
didn't see, but the one trooper who did said the car got slightly
airborne and when it came down the front wheels were pointed
in a different direction than the rest of the car.  Ferarris being
what the are, the car went the direction the front wheels pointed.
Not good.  The trooper said he rolled about 6 - 7 times before
coming to rest.  Well, most parts of the car came to a rest along
the way.  The suspension corners were scattered about, the
engine was over on the west side of the road, the trans about
200 feet to the east. The car, of carbon fiber construction
basically disintegrated.

Except for the cockpit.  The roll cage structure built into it
worked.  It really worked.  The seating area was basically intact,
other than the scratched paint.  Everything else hanging off of this
core piece was totally destroyed, but I was sure impressed about
how well that carbon fiber cage worked.  Wow. The guy had
some injuries, nothing terribly serious, but he's alive and well.

I thought I had some photos handy that I took at the scene,
maybe I'll find them and post somewhere.

mjb.

From jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jul 31 22:12:11 2008
From: jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net (Briggs John F)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:12:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers
In-Reply-To: <C4B7F747.9695%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <584190.41554.qm@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brian,
   
  It kinda depends on where in Michigan.  Building Code in Southern MI ( I'm in Livingston County) requires the the top of footings for pole building and deck footings to be at least 42" below final grade.  Northern MI would be deeper.  You can look up the normal frost line in your area on the internet.  The top of your footing can be at that level, but your county probably has a minimum depth.  You can make it less than that, but you should then expect things to move up and down with the frost, break,  and in some case to eventually "pop out of the ground".  A slab in Michigan requires a 36" (it might be 24" or so - it's been a while) deep "Rat Wall" below final grade.  The "rat wall" is to keep the moles, rats and skunks from burrowing under it and causing problems for your floor.  My pole barn (24' x 40' 2 Story) has the 42" deep footings for the poles and the 36" rat wall. The 5" to 6" floor is in 4 quadrants with welded wire mesh and is poured over a 2 foot tamped sand
 base.  There are three centerline poles to support the second floor.  I originally planned to do automotive work in it, but have since turned to building a few small boats.  Today I would put in a 3" floor with wire mesh or a wood floor. 
  I bought a one person gas powered auger and bored 48" to 50" deep 8" dia. holes below final grade and put in concrete to make the top of the footing at the 42".   The 4" x 6" poles went in after that hardened, dirt was tamped around the poles so that the bottom of the poles didn't move around and they were stablized with framing,  The rat wall and floor were poured on top of tamped sand as a single pour.  That fills in around the poles and everything is solid.  My wife and I built all of the barn (with some help from friends) except the concrete floor work that we had professionaly done.
  The only problem I have is because the service door is next to one of the poles and the floor moves up slightly in the winter due to frost causing the door to jam.  I may move the door so that both sides are on 2" x 4"s supported from the floor and that should solve the problem.
   
  If I were building the "same" barn today, I would pour an exterior wall foundation (48" deep x 16 or 18" wide) with interior pilings and install a suspended wood beam floor on the pilings.  The whole barn would be stick built rather than a pole barn.  It would have been a lot easier than dealing with the poles when they started to twist as the whole structure aged.  It's about 8 years old now.  In my area it is almost impossible to get 4 x 6 poles that are not twisted.  The wood floor would have turned out to be about the same cost as the concrete floor over sand and it would better suit my needs today for nailing braces for boat forms.  It would also be a heck of a lot easier on the feet.  

  Just my thoughts and how I did it.  Good luck with it.
  
John

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Jul 31 22:13:47 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:13:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <165F0F568ACF48DDBD2ED738D9EBFAA3@shack2>
References: <001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us><20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<165F0F568ACF48DDBD2ED738D9EBFAA3@shack2>
Message-ID: <020101c8f38c$ff922d00$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Bill,

I don't believe you were called a liar; perhaps having missed something, but
there is a huge difference between the two.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Gingerich
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:35 PM
To: 'Randall'; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show

Randall,

I appreciate the references you've included.  Since I have essentially been
called a liar, I'm glad to see the details are essentially as I reported
them.  The story I read did not include the dates of the legislation, so I
was unaware that the law had been in effect for that long.  The story did
state that the language of the law is vague enough that it could be applied
to a private party working on their own vehicle.  I did forget the 80 volt
specification in my original comment.

I've only lived in OK for 18 months, and am still learning what the laws are
around here.  Each day can be an adventure.

BillG
Newalla, OK



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Randall
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:15 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show

> I'm going to call BS on this one.  I just went digging around in 
> Oklahoma laws for fuels, vehicles, vehicle repairs and such and found 
> absolutely nothing like this claim.

Check out the "Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act", which
provides :
>>>
'74-130.20.  Work of technician by noncertified person.

After September 1, 1991, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform the
work or offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an
alternative fuels equipment technician until such person has qualified and
is certified as an alternative fuels equipment technician.  Beginning
September 1, 1995, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform work or
offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an alternative
fuels compression technician until such person has qualified and is
certified as an alternative fuels compression technician.  Beginning
November 1, 1998, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform the work or
offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an electric
vehicle technician until such person has qualified and is certified as an
electric vehicle technician.
<<<

Suitable definitions are included :
>>>
2.  "Alternative fuels equipment technician" means any person who installs,
modifies, repairs or renovates equipment used in the conversion of any
engines to engines fueled by alternative fuels. This includes originally
equipped manufactured engines dedicated to operate on an alternative fuel;
<<< and
>>>
"Electric vehicle technician" means any person who installs, modifies,
repairs, performs maintenance on, or renovates onboard charging systems,
motors, controllers, power sources, or the drive systems of vehicles powered
by electricity that is greater than eighty (80) volts.
<<<

Let there be no doubt, OK is an oil state.  This last provision is
particularly offensive, since it could be reasonably interpreted to include
even a 12v kiddie car with a charger operated on house current.

Above quotes copied from the OK Legislature web site at
http://www.lsb.state.ok.us/

Randall
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