From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Tue Jan  1 16:48:29 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:48:29 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] CO2 And Argon for MIG
Message-ID: <000001c84cd0$d28c2e90$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

I have a C02 tank for my MIG. I'm planning on doing some Aluminum work  so
I was checking on switching to Argon, My gas supplier says that I will need
to buy a Argon tank. He also says that a  75%  C02  25% Argon will work
better for steel than 100% C02. 
Since I have a CO2 and a Argon regulator could I hook up both bottles and
regulators ( 100% CO2 and 100% Argon) with a  " Y " joint located after the
regulator  and  use  a after tank mix?   
If so any suggestions on how to get the 25 - 75 mix ratio adjusted ? 

Bob Nogueira   

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 17:24:09 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:24:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] CO2 And Argon for MIG
In-Reply-To: <000001c84cd0$d28c2e90$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
References: <000001c84cd0$d28c2e90$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801011624g4528179w1bd90d984144f20c@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 1, 2008 6:48 PM, Bob Nogueira <nogera at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I have a C02 tank for my MIG. I'm planning on doing some Aluminum work  so
> I was checking on switching to Argon, My gas supplier says that I will need
> to buy a Argon tank. He also says that a  75%  C02  25% Argon will work
> better for steel than 100% C02.

Generally thought to be true, yes.

> Since I have a CO2 and a Argon regulator could I hook up both bottles and
> regulators ( 100% CO2 and 100% Argon) with a  " Y " joint located after the
> regulator  and  use  a after tank mix?

No.  You need a mixer.  One to do things properly will cost much more
than a few extra gas bottles.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan  1 18:18:41 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:18:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] CO2 And Argon for MIG
In-Reply-To: <000001c84cd0$d28c2e90$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <321616.78206.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think the standard mix is 75% Argon, 25% CO2.
That's what is in my bottle.

Doug


--- Bob Nogueira <nogera at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> I have a C02 tank for my MIG. I'm planning on doing
> some Aluminum work  so
> I was checking on switching to Argon, My gas
> supplier says that I will need
> to buy a Argon tank. He also says that a  75%  C02 
> 25% Argon will work
> better for steel than 100% C02. 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan  1 18:20:52 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:20:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIg Welding Info
Message-ID: <811985.33274.qm@web610.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here is a web site I just discovered.  It has LOTS of
good info on MIG welding. 

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

Among other things, there is a bunch of photos of
welds with different gas mixes.

Doug

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan  1 22:40:44 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 21:40:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] CO2 And Argon for MIG
In-Reply-To: <321616.78206.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <000001c84cd0$d28c2e90$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
	<321616.78206.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01bd01c84d02$05c02150$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

My gas guy recommends a 90/10, but only if the steel is really clean.  It
does work better and is a little hotter than the 75/25 when the steel is
clean, but the 75/25 is a great all steel gas.

It comes pre-mixed in one bottle.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Doug
Braun
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:19 PM
To: nogera at worldnet.att.net; Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] CO2 And Argon for MIG

I think the standard mix is 75% Argon, 25% CO2.
That's what is in my bottle.

Doug


--- Bob Nogueira <nogera at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> I have a C02 tank for my MIG. I'm planning on doing some Aluminum work  
> so I was checking on switching to Argon, My gas supplier says that I 
> will need to buy a Argon tank. He also says that a  75%  C02 25% Argon 
> will work better for steel than 100% C02.
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Jan  2 20:43:59 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:43:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing Stuff in Garage "Attic"
In-Reply-To: <200712311732.lBVHWdDQ032259@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200712311732.lBVHWdDQ032259@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <BAY126-W51D3B7B37BEA30BCCCD3D1CC530@phx.gbl>

Thanks for the advice guys.  (And especially thanks to John for the pictures.)
I have a pretty good idea on what to do now.> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:32:39
-0800> From: cak at dimebank.com> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: Re:
[Shop-talk] Storing Stuff in Garage "Attic"> > My garage is stick-framed,
rather than using pre-built trusses, but> each set of roof beams has a 2x6
stringer across at the top plate.> These are spaced on 24". > > My garage is
small, and I need all the storage I can get, so I> had always planned to put
something up there. But... I have skylights> in the roof, because I like
working natural light whenever possible.> (The entire place is painted white
or covered in white showerboard.)> > What I did was cut 2x4s to fit between
the stringers, and hang them> at about 30" with Simpson Strong-Tie brackets
designed for this.> At the "ends", I used 2x6 instead (you'll see why). I did
this> between alternating pairs, so I can stick my head up between two>
stringers and put stuff on either side.> > Across the short 2x4s, I put
(white!) wire shelving that I bought> at the big box store - I think it's the
Rubbermaid shelving stuff.> This nestles 2" below the top of the 2x6s, so the
boxes are prevented> from sliding off in either direction or off the ends.> >
This has worked well for me. I don't put very heavy stuff up there.> You have
to pick storage boxes that you can hoist over head, and that> will fit in the
~20" space between the stringers! The first boxes> I chose were too big, and
too tempting to overfill.> _______________________________________________>
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as
jandkstone99 at msn.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk> >
http://www.team.net/archive
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 09:09:45 2008
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:09:45 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight
In-Reply-To: <20071229235038.KNJX7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<20071229235038.KNJX7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <441250190801030809x24c9408ewd98bb20e96475867@mail.gmail.com>

A bit late but I have one of these
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-sheet-Metal-Cutter/G9947 for cutting
sheet metal and it works well.  I used it all the time.  One of the best $20
purchases I have made in a long time.

-g



On 12/29/07, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried out one of these nibblers ?
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46061
> >
> > Does it really use that much air ?  Or did the ad writer goof
> > and quote the SCFM number ?
>
> Just wanted to report : I picked up the nibbler and used it; worked great
> for what I needed to do (which was to enlarge a 5" opening in an existing
> flat-sided air duct to 8").  Didn't try to measure the air consumption,
> but
> it must be a misprint; worked just fine with my little 110v 25 gal air
> compressor.  Seemed to use even less air than my "4 cfm" die grinder, so
> I'd
> guess maybe the number on HF's site was in SCFM.
>
> Thanks again to everyone who responded.
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Thu Jan  3 09:55:53 2008
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:55:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight
In-Reply-To: <441250190801030809x24c9408ewd98bb20e96475867@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<20071229235038.KNJX7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
	<441250190801030809x24c9408ewd98bb20e96475867@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <477D1399.4010001@comcast.net>

And you thought you were late ...

For those for whom the bench shear may not be right, there is always the 
<http://www.grizzly.com/products/Electric-Sheet-Metal-Shear/H2867> or such.  I 
don't like all the little scrap bits that nibblers toss.  The bench shear leaves 
only two separate pieces, while the hand-held (air or electric) shears leave a 
strip of scrap and the separated pieces of sheet.

HTH,
Donald.

Bill Gilroy wrote:
> A bit late but I have one of these
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-sheet-Metal-Cutter/G9947 for cutting
> sheet metal and it works well.  I used it all the time.  One of the best $20
> purchases I have made in a long time.
> 
> -g
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/29/07, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Has anyone tried out one of these nibblers ?
>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46061
>>>
>>> Does it really use that much air ?  Or did the ad writer goof
>>> and quote the SCFM number ?
>> Just wanted to report : I picked up the nibbler and used it; worked great
>> for what I needed to do (which was to enlarge a 5" opening in an existing
>> flat-sided air duct to 8").  Didn't try to measure the air consumption,
>> but
>> it must be a misprint; worked just fine with my little 110v 25 gal air
>> compressor.  Seemed to use even less air than my "4 cfm" die grinder, so
>> I'd
>> guess maybe the number on HF's site was in SCFM.
>>
>> Thanks again to everyone who responded.
>>
>> Randall

From twsolowerks at netzero.com  Thu Jan  3 10:30:13 2008
From: twsolowerks at netzero.com (twsolowerks at netzero.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:30:13 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight
Message-ID: <20080103.113013.20277.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>

They'll take my Bosch Uni-shear from my dead cold hands...I love that thing.
It'll do 16 gauge and lighter...
Greg M.

_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on marketing degrees and make up to $150K/ year
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2211/fc/Ioyw6ijlSojwsVskRaO6RIKEuEsHdH
7tUQAEP1RsIoV30LYvIql7AR/

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Jan  3 12:00:54 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:00:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight
In-Reply-To: <20080103.113013.20277.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080103.113013.20277.0@webmail02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c84e3a$f8149fb0$e83ddf10$@mele@usermail.com>

<<They'll take my Bosch Uni-shear from my dead cold
hands...I love that thing.
It'll do 16 gauge and lighter...
Greg M.>>


Nothing like a nice tool.  
Are you able to elaborate on the cost ($450 vs $50)/benefit
ratio?

From twsolowerks at netzero.com  Thu Jan  3 12:13:02 2008
From: twsolowerks at netzero.com (twsolowerks at netzero.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:13:02 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight
Message-ID: <20080103.131302.19568.1@webmail17.dca.untd.com>

My uni-shear was a gift...but I would have happily paid for it.  The air
powered nibblers probably work well enough but I own a D Prepared Miata so I
need tools that can run of the generator.  Never know when you'll need to open
up the fenders a bit.
May not be worth it for everyone but I like the control I have with it.





_____________________________________________________________
Pamper yourself with great package deals on luxury travel. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2211/fc/Ioyw6ijmC26gxlSyMhUz54qL0b0SGT
g4RENiJ3QkoXB2NUs40vIBM0/

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jan  3 18:17:05 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:17:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
Message-ID: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

I have 3 openers.  They're 1/3hp Lift Master units with chain drive. 
I'm not sure how to adjust them.  They don't stop at the bottom, 
but instead hit bottom and then reverse direction and head back up. 
I'm going to do some web searching, but thought I'd check here 
first.
Super thanks.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

From Luckyone1 at rogers.com  Thu Jan  3 18:25:17 2008
From: Luckyone1 at rogers.com (Steven W. Reilly)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:25:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
In-Reply-To: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20080103202159.052e2080@rogers.com>

An Idea........
Perhaps the bottom of the door or something hanging off the door is 
triggering the electronic safety sensors usually present at the 
bottom / sides of the garage door?  Some of them have a LED or light 
on them that goes on/off if the beam is interrupted.  Have someone 
close the door from outside while you stare at the light and see if it blinks.

Steve

At 08:17 PM 1/3/2008, you wrote:

>I have 3 openers.  They're 1/3hp Lift Master units with chain drive.
>I'm not sure how to adjust them.  They don't stop at the bottom,
>but instead hit bottom and then reverse direction and head back up.
>I'm going to do some web searching, but thought I'd check here
>first.
>Super thanks.
>
>Steve Hammatt
>Mount Vernon WA USA
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as luckyone1 at rogers.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1208 - Release Date: 
>1/3/2008 3:52 PM


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1208 - Release Date: 1/3/2008 3:52 PM

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jan  3 18:39:42 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:39:42 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
	<7.0.0.16.2.20080103202159.052e2080@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <01c501c84e72$ad968420$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

Nope
the doorway is clear.  safety light beam is not interrupted.
I think I've found a pdf file of the manual.  Trying to download
that now.  Have to update by Adobe Reader.  Last week when
I tried to install my new Blackberry software, it crashed my
'puter and destroyed my Adobe pdf reader program!
Thanks.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven W. Reilly" <Luckyone1 at rogers.com>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers


| An Idea........
| Perhaps the bottom of the door or something hanging off the door is
| triggering the electronic safety sensors usually present at the
| bottom / sides of the garage door?  Some of them have a LED or light
| on them that goes on/off if the beam is interrupted.  Have someone
| close the door from outside while you stare at the light and see if it 
blinks.
|
| Steve
|
| At 08:17 PM 1/3/2008, you wrote:
|
| >I have 3 openers.  They're 1/3hp Lift Master units with chain drive.
| >I'm not sure how to adjust them.  They don't stop at the bottom,
| >but instead hit bottom and then reverse direction and head back up.
| >I'm going to do some web searching, but thought I'd check here
| >first.
| >Super thanks.
| >
| >Steve Hammatt
| >Mount Vernon WA USA
| >_______________________________________________
| >Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
| >
| >You are subscribed as luckyone1 at rogers.com
| >
| >Shop-talk mailing list
| >
| >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
| >
| >http://www.team.net/archive
| >
| >
| >
| >--
| >No virus found in this incoming message.
| >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
| >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1208 - Release Date:
| >1/3/2008 3:52 PM
|
|
| -- 
| No virus found in this outgoing message.
| Checked by AVG Free Edition.
| Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1208 - Release Date: 
1/3/2008 3:52 PM
| _______________________________________________
| Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
|
| You are subscribed as gsteve at hammatt.com
|
| Shop-talk mailing list
|
| http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
|
| http://www.team.net/archive
|
|
| -- 
| No virus found in this incoming message.
| Checked by AVG Free Edition.
| Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13 - Release Date: 
12/31/2007 12:00 AM
|
| 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 18:47:48 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:47:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
In-Reply-To: <01c501c84e72$ad968420$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
	<7.0.0.16.2.20080103202159.052e2080@rogers.com>
	<01c501c84e72$ad968420$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801031747l9c8959ev655bb931e4520386@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 3, 2008 8:39 PM, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA
<gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:
> Nope
> the doorway is clear.  safety light beam is not interrupted.
> I think I've found a pdf file of the manual.  Trying to download
> that now.  Have to update by Adobe Reader.  Last week when
> I tried to install my new Blackberry software, it crashed my
> 'puter and destroyed my Adobe pdf reader program!
> Thanks.
>

For reading PDFs on Windows machines, I recommend the foxit reader,
from foxit software
http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php
The reader is free.  It's small, starts instantly, and fast.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Jan  3 19:03:35 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:03:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
In-Reply-To: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
Message-ID: <0JU300CYZKFCZVR0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Is there more to this story?  Did you just install them?  It seems 
odd that three openers would all spontaneously have the exact same 
symptom.  One thing that sometimes happens around here (NY) when it 
gets really cold,  the frozen ground rises a bit and causes the type 
of symptom you're talking about.  On my Sears/Chamberlain openers, 
there are screw adjuster things on the side of the unit for the upper 
and lower limits.  I assume yours has something similar.  Hopefully 
that manual will answer it all for you.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 08:17 PM 1/3/2008, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
>I have 3 openers.  They're 1/3hp Lift Master units with chain drive.
>I'm not sure how to adjust them.  They don't stop at the bottom,

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Jan  3 19:50:41 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:50:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
In-Reply-To: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
Message-ID: <477D9F01.4040608@xxiii.com>

Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
> I have 3 openers.  They're 1/3hp Lift Master units with chain drive. 
> I'm not sure how to adjust them.  They don't stop at the bottom, 
> but instead hit bottom and then reverse direction and head back up. 

I'm guessing it's the same as mine and other LMs I've seen.  The manuals 
are easily googleable.

There are two multi-turn pots on the side for upper and lower travel 
limits, and two on the back for up/downward force threshold to detect an 
obstruction.

   -Wayne

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jan  3 20:30:09 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:30:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
	<0JU300CYZKFCZVR0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <00a801c84e82$1bcaf520$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

Lots of great information.  I'm sure that I can handle this
on the weekend.  It's a bit dark and wet out tonight!  However,
in trying to download the pdf file I've just run into another situation.
My computer says that the program cannot be read because there's
no program associated with that type (pdf) to read it.  I'm supposed
to create an association by going to the Folder Options Control
Panel and create an association.  Anybody know where this Folder Option
Control Panel is located?  Running Windows XP Pro.
Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Trovato" <strovato at optonline.net>
To: "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>; "Shop 
Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers


| Is there more to this story?  Did you just install them?  It seems
| odd that three openers would all spontaneously have the exact same
| symptom.  One thing that sometimes happens around here (NY) when it
| gets really cold,  the frozen ground rises a bit and causes the type
| of symptom you're talking about.  On my Sears/Chamberlain openers,
| there are screw adjuster things on the side of the unit for the upper
| and lower limits.  I assume yours has something similar.  Hopefully
| that manual will answer it all for you.
|
| -Steve Trovato
| strovato at optonline.net
|
| At 08:17 PM 1/3/2008, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
| >I have 3 openers.  They're 1/3hp Lift Master units with chain drive.
| >I'm not sure how to adjust them.  They don't stop at the bottom,
|
|
|
| -- 
| No virus found in this incoming message.
| Checked by AVG Free Edition.
| Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 
1/2/2008 11:29 AM
|
| 

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Jan  3 21:02:18 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:02:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] PDF Files
References: <000a01c84e85$caf7bf30$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <000601c84e86$99b72540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

Bob
Thanks for the info.  I just found it myself, about 1 minute before I 
opened
you email.  Hopefully things are looking better!

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Kegel" <bobkegel at seanet.com>
To: <gsteve at hammatt.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:56 PM
Subject: Re:PDF Files


| On 1/3/2008 19:30:09, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA
| (gsteve at hammatt.com) wrote:
| > Lots of great information.
| > I'm sure that I can handle this
| > on the weekend.  It's a bit dark and wet
| > out tonight!  However,
| > in trying to download the pdf file
| > I've just run into another situation.
| > My computer says that the program cannot be read because there's no
| > program associated with that type (pdf) to read it. I'm supposed
| > to create an association by going to the Folder Options Control
| > Panel and create an association.  Anybody know where this Folder 
Option
| > Control Panel is located?  Running Windows XP Pro.
| > Steve Hammatt
| > Mount Vernon WA USA
|
| Click on "Tools" in a document folder. "Folder Options" is at the 
bottom of
| the pull-down list. Click on it and select the "File Types" tab. Check 
for
| PDF and that it is identified with "Adobe Acrobat Document" and is 
opened
| with Adobe Reader. Change or add as needed.
|
| Alternately, you may right click on the PDF file name,  select "Open 
With"
| from the menu and specify Adobe Reader.
|
| Bob Kegel
| Aberdeen, WA
|
|
|
|
|
| -- 
| No virus found in this incoming message.
| Checked by AVG Free Edition.
| Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 
1/2/2008 11:29 AM
|
| 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Jan  4 05:33:45 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:33:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
In-Reply-To: <00a801c84e82$1bcaf520$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
	<0JU300CYZKFCZVR0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080104073345.00a087d0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 07:30 PM 1/3/2008 -0800, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
>Lots of great information.  I'm sure that I can handle this
>on the weekend.  It's a bit dark and wet out tonight!  However,
>in trying to download the pdf file I've just run into another situation.
>My computer says that the program cannot be read because there's
>no program associated with that type (pdf) to read it.  I'm supposed
>to create an association by going to the Folder Options Control
>Panel and create an association.  Anybody know where this Folder Option
>Control Panel is located?  Running Windows XP Pro.

Steve,

Going to Control panel will let you set associations.  There are other ways
also.  BUT, if you don't had a PDF reader loaded, you won't be able to
open the file.  In other words, you can associate say a PDF file to be
opened with say Notepad.  But Notepad, doesn't understand the data contained
in the PDF file and wont display the file.

You'll need a PDF reader first.  Yesterday, someone mentioned getting the
Foxit_PDF_Reader22.  I got a copy from:

http://www.download.com/Foxit-PDF-Reader/3000-2079_4-10313206.html

It is truely great!  The new Adobie Reader is so fat it's rediculous.

Regardless of what PDF reader you download (Adobie's or the Foxit one)
both should make the association for you automatically.  If it doesn't
then you'll need to make the association yourself.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan  4 08:50:32 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:50:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Grizzly Metal Cutter
In-Reply-To: <441250190801030809x24c9408ewd98bb20e96475867@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I got one of these a while ago, thanks to your earlier
recommendation.  It works great!  I used it a lot for
16 and 20 gauge sheet steel.  It's a steal! Eastwood
sells the same thing for something like $50.

Doug

P.S.:  My new Grizzly catalog shows a nice-looking,
rather light and inexpensive TIG welder:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/h8153

Can anyone comment on how this might compare to
something like a Miller Maxstar 150  (which is twice
as expensive)?

Thanks,

Doug



--- Bill Gilroy <wmgilroy at gmail.com> wrote:

> A bit late but I have one of these
>
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-sheet-Metal-Cutter/G9947
> for cutting
> sheet metal and it works well.  I used it all the
> time.  One of the best $20
> purchases I have made in a long time.
> 
> -g

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Jan  4 09:16:19 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:16:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inexpensive TIG welders(was: Grizzly Metal Cutter)
In-Reply-To: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041114050.3805@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Doug Braun wrote:
> P.S.:  My new Grizzly catalog shows a nice-looking,
> rather light and inexpensive TIG welder:
>
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/h8153
>
> Can anyone comment on how this might compare to
> something like a Miller Maxstar 150  (which is twice
> as expensive)?

I don't know much about TIG welders, but I think you want AC if you're 
going to be doing Aluminum welding, right?

How about this one?
http://www.grizzly.com/products/220V-Tig-AC-DC-Welder/H8154

Its more money, but it seems to be pretty cheap for what it is compared to 
the Lincoln/Miller choices I've seen.  Any of you welding experts want to 
weigh in?  I don't know much of anything about welders beyond how to use 
my little suitcase MIG...

Mark

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 09:31:01 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:31:01 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop catalog mailings!
Message-ID: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>

Most recent HF catalog received says my time is up!! They need to hear from
me!! LOL.

 

They want $2 a year for the privilege of continuing to send me catalogs.
Guess all my in store purchases don't count eh? I think it is a bluff, I
don't think they know how to stop sending these catalogs that seem to come
every other day. HA!

 

Are you worried?? ;)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 09:44:25 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:44:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop catalog mailings!
In-Reply-To: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801040844l6a7e8a06h1eb7cb807a977c24@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 4, 2008 11:31 AM, cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:
> Most recent HF catalog received says my time is up!! They need to hear from
> me!! LOL.
>
>
>
> They want $2 a year for the privilege of continuing to send me catalogs.
> Guess all my in store purchases don't count eh? I think it is a bluff, I
> don't think they know how to stop sending these catalogs that seem to come
> every other day. HA!
>
They stopped sending them to me.  I don't think I ordered anything
from them after a store opened near me.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jan  4 10:01:26 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:01:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inexpensive TIG welders(was: Grizzly Metal Cutter)
References: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041114050.3805@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <00b801c84ef3$727f3d60$6e01a8c0@KARL>

The Grizzly specs don't mention anything about proportioning the clean time 
in AC, which is a big feature with Miller, Lincoln, and HTP.  Aluminum 
welding benefits from that feature.

Although I've got only Miller MIG and AC stick machines myself, I've been 
pretty impressed by the HTP TIG machines.  Maybe it's because they're 
located near me and I've been there a few times.  Real friendly people.

HTP's machines are designed here, but the TIGs are built in Italy while the 
MIG machines are assembled here from parts made in Germany.  Lots of 
features only found in the better Miller machines.  They're not much cheaper 
than similar-powered Miller or Lincoln machines, but have the edge on a few 
features.  I might buy theirs rather than a Miller, but Miller is all I've 
ever trusted before.

Karl


> I don't know much about TIG welders, but I think you want AC if you're
> going to be doing Aluminum welding, right?
>
> How about this one?
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/220V-Tig-AC-DC-Welder/H8154
>
> Its more money, but it seems to be pretty cheap for what it is compared to
> the Lincoln/Miller choices I've seen.  Any of you welding experts want to
> weigh in?  I don't know much of anything about welders beyond how to use
> my little suitcase MIG...
>
> Mark

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Jan  4 10:36:57 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:36:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop catalog mailings!
In-Reply-To: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C29ECA@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Cornerexit wrote:

> Most recent HF catalog received says my time is up!! They
> need to hear from me!! LOL.

Come to think of it, I haven't gotten a catalog from them in quite a
while - monthly flyers from the retail store, but no catalog.

Just go to their web site: http://www.harborfreight.com/ and sign up for
a free catalog.  Start the process all over again...


Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From battmain at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 10:57:59 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:57:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop catalog mailings!
In-Reply-To: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <433274.26776.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

My threats came from the flyers I got from purchasing
at the store. It cost me a few bucks in tolls to get
there so I don't go unless I have a bunch of things to
purchase. I'm not worried. All I have to do is make
another order and my mailbox will be full again. At
one point, I was getting both catalogs and flyers.

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

--- cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:

> Most recent HF catalog received says my time is up!! They need to hear from
> me!! LOL.
(snip)
> They want $2 a year for the privilege of continuing to send me catalogs.
> Guess all my in store purchases don't count eh? I think it is a bluff, I
> don't think they know how to stop sending these catalogs that seem to come
> every other day. HA!
> Are you worried?? ;)
(snip)


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jan  4 11:02:57 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:02:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Foxit
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt><7.0.0.16.2.20080103202159.052e2080@rogers.com><01c501c84e72$ad968420$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
	<2400a5d40801031747l9c8959ev655bb931e4520386@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012e01c84efc$0a12aba0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Wow - thanks for the link to Foxit.  What a revelation - it's NOT torture 
every time I need to open a pdf - many times a day.  This actually works !!

I've always believed that Adobe's poor performance on PC's was just their 
little ploy to push the Mac by "proving" that PC's were no good.

Foxit is great so far.  Thanks again !

Karl



> For reading PDFs on Windows machines, I recommend the foxit reader,
> from foxit software
> http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php
> The reader is free.  It's small, starts instantly, and fast.
>
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Jan  4 11:09:28 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:09:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inexpensive TIG welders(was: Grizzly Metal Cutter)
In-Reply-To: <00b801c84ef3$727f3d60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041114050.3805@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<00b801c84ef3$727f3d60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041308500.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Is the HTP welder you're talking about this one?
http://www.usaweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html

Where can you buy HTP products?

Mark

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Karl Vacek wrote:
> The Grizzly specs don't mention anything about proportioning the clean time
> in AC, which is a big feature with Miller, Lincoln, and HTP.  Aluminum
> welding benefits from that feature.
>
> Although I've got only Miller MIG and AC stick machines myself, I've been
> pretty impressed by the HTP TIG machines.  Maybe it's because they're
> located near me and I've been there a few times.  Real friendly people.
>
> HTP's machines are designed here, but the TIGs are built in Italy while the
> MIG machines are assembled here from parts made in Germany.  Lots of
> features only found in the better Miller machines.  They're not much cheaper
> than similar-powered Miller or Lincoln machines, but have the edge on a few
> features.  I might buy theirs rather than a Miller, but Miller is all I've
> ever trusted before.
>
> Karl
>
>
>> I don't know much about TIG welders, but I think you want AC if you're
>> going to be doing Aluminum welding, right?
>>
>> How about this one?
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/220V-Tig-AC-DC-Welder/H8154
>>
>> Its more money, but it seems to be pretty cheap for what it is compared to
>> the Lincoln/Miller choices I've seen.  Any of you welding experts want to
>> weigh in?  I don't know much of anything about welders beyond how to use
>> my little suitcase MIG...
>>
>> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 11:12:58 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:12:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Foxit
In-Reply-To: <012e01c84efc$0a12aba0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
	<7.0.0.16.2.20080103202159.052e2080@rogers.com>
	<01c501c84e72$ad968420$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
	<2400a5d40801031747l9c8959ev655bb931e4520386@mail.gmail.com>
	<012e01c84efc$0a12aba0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801041012q523df144r692587180c4a1708@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 4, 2008 1:02 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> Wow - thanks for the link to Foxit.  What a revelation - it's NOT torture
> every time I need to open a pdf - many times a day.  This actually works !!
>
> I've always believed that Adobe's poor performance on PC's was just their
> little ploy to push the Mac by "proving" that PC's were no good.
>

Adobe's software is all slow to start, on every platform I've used it
on.  For something like Photoshop, that's not surprising, but acrobat
is just a bloated pig.  It keeps getting worse, too.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 11:14:42 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:14:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inexpensive TIG welders(was: Grizzly Metal Cutter)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041308500.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041114050.3805@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<00b801c84ef3$727f3d60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041308500.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801041014i74c20378y467e1079b7d6ef62@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 4, 2008 1:09 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Is the HTP welder you're talking about this one?
> http://www.usaweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html
>
> Where can you buy HTP products?
>
>From them.  Call them up and talk.  Everyone I've ever talked to there
has been quite knowledgeable about their products.  (I've got an HTP
mig, which is nice.)

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Jan  4 11:22:34 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:22:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inexpensive TIG welders(was: Grizzly Metal Cutter)
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801041014i74c20378y467e1079b7d6ef62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041114050.3805@mephisto.banklogic.net> 
	<00b801c84ef3$727f3d60$6e01a8c0@KARL> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041308500.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<2400a5d40801041014i74c20378y467e1079b7d6ef62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041321550.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2008 1:09 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Is the HTP welder you're talking about this one?
>> http://www.usaweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html
>>
>> Where can you buy HTP products?
>>
>> From them.  Call them up and talk.  Everyone I've ever talked to there
> has been quite knowledgeable about their products.  (I've got an HTP
> mig, which is nice.)

Is there a price list somewhere on their site that I'm just not seeing? 
I'd rather not bug someone when I'm mostly just "window shopping".

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 11:27:06 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:27:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inexpensive TIG welders(was: Grizzly Metal Cutter)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041321550.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041114050.3805@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<00b801c84ef3$727f3d60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041308500.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<2400a5d40801041014i74c20378y467e1079b7d6ef62@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041321550.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801041027w7401880di7597d94e3fe096a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 4, 2008 1:22 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:

> Is there a price list somewhere on their site that I'm just not seeing?
> I'd rather not bug someone when I'm mostly just "window shopping".
>

Not unless they've changed things, no.  I don't know why they don't
like to publish their prices, but they don't.  If you call them up,
they'll tell you.  They used to send me a catalog with prices in, but
I haven't bought anything from them in a while.  (HAven't used the
machine much lately)  Typically, their equipment is less than the
Lincoln or Miller equivalent.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Jan  4 11:46:39 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:46:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop catalog mailings!
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801040844l6a7e8a06h1eb7cb807a977c24@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
	<075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080104134639.00a094a8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 11:44 AM 1/4/2008 -0500, David Scheidt wrote:
>On Jan 4, 2008 11:31 AM, cornerexit <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:

>> Most recent HF catalog received says my time is up!! They need to hear from
>> me!! LOL.

>They stopped sending them to me.  I don't think I ordered anything
>from them after a store opened near me.

Same here.  They stopped sending me the catalogs.  Luckily I have a store
locally also.  So next time I was there, I asked.  They said just fill 
out a form.  Been getting them ever since.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jan  4 12:03:02 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:03:02 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Inexpensive TIG welders(was: Grizzly Metal Cutter)
References: <502925.80350.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041114050.3805@mephisto.banklogic.net><00b801c84ef3$727f3d60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801041308500.11998@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <017701c84f04$6ee05c00$6e01a8c0@KARL>

That's it - it's $2395 "on sale" now.  I think that everything is always "on 
sale" though.  They'll send you a catalog - lots of good tools throughout it 
too, as well as consumables (contact tips, liner tubes, gas nozzles, etc.) 
for most Miller / Hobart, Lincoln, etc. MIG and TIG machines.  And if you've 
bought weldable primer from a local body shop supplier, chances it was 
theirs.

When you get the catalog, you have to look it over well to find all the 
tools (the MIG tip cleaner is neat, along with the tip spray).  The 
catalog's organization is a little confusing - but maybe it makes sense to 
them.  Different MIG and TIG tools are spread across at least 3 different 
places, so it can be hard to find an item.

Nice people.  Little company.  The TIG DVD is great, although pricy at 
$29.95 and it spends some time showing off that machine's particular 
features.  Still I've watched it a few times, and I'm taking a TIG class 
there a week from tomorrow, not because I'm necessarily ever buying one of 
their machines, but TIG is fun and I don't have a TIG machine to play with - 
yet.

Their MIG video isn't as expensive and it isn't as good.  The best part 
about it is the demonstration of many of their MIG machine's neat 
accessories.  THAT was impressive, and maybe makes worth watching the MIG 
DVD after all...

Karl




> Is the HTP welder you're talking about this one?
> http://www.usaweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html
>
> Where can you buy HTP products?
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Karl Vacek wrote:
>> The Grizzly specs don't mention anything about proportioning the clean 
>> time
>> in AC, which is a big feature with Miller, Lincoln, and HTP.  Aluminum
>> welding benefits from that feature.
>>
>> Although I've got only Miller MIG and AC stick machines myself, I've been
>> pretty impressed by the HTP TIG machines.  Maybe it's because they're
>> located near me and I've been there a few times.  Real friendly people.
>>
>> HTP's machines are designed here, but the TIGs are built in Italy while 
>> the
>> MIG machines are assembled here from parts made in Germany.  Lots of
>> features only found in the better Miller machines.  They're not much 
>> cheaper
>> than similar-powered Miller or Lincoln machines, but have the edge on a 
>> few
>> features.  I might buy theirs rather than a Miller, but Miller is all 
>> I've
>> ever trusted before.
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>>> I don't know much about TIG welders, but I think you want AC if you're
>>> going to be doing Aluminum welding, right?
>>>
>>> How about this one?
>>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/220V-Tig-AC-DC-Welder/H8154
>>>
>>> Its more money, but it seems to be pretty cheap for what it is compared 
>>> to
>>> the Lincoln/Miller choices I've seen.  Any of you welding experts want 
>>> to
>>> weigh in?  I don't know much of anything about welders beyond how to use
>>> my little suitcase MIG...
>>>
>>> Mark
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Fri Jan  4 13:25:49 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:25:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop catalog mailings!
In-Reply-To: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <003101c84f10$0234e0b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

One thing they have seemed to drop is the weekly e mail with coupons for the
store. I hate to admit it but I used to actually look forward to getting it
and seeing what they had a coupon for that I imagined I needed. Usually
there were always one or two things that would lure me into a visit. 

Some time last fall they quit sending them. I even went to their web site a
couple of times and signed up again but never sent any more. I have talked
to other people who say they are no longer getting them.

From peter.steinberg at thermofisher.com  Fri Jan  4 13:29:31 2008
From: peter.steinberg at thermofisher.com (Steinberg, Peter)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:29:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop catalog mailings!
In-Reply-To: <003101c84f10$0234e0b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <075101c84eef$338c92a0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
	<003101c84f10$0234e0b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <498C5B1BA52B354C99634271817561290A28898FFE@USWAL-MXVS1.amer.thermo.com>

I've gotten the emails over the last few days.

The web links to the last couple are:
        http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/emails/display.do?fname=1_RetailB
.html
        http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/emails/display.do?fname=1_RetailA
.html


> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> shop-talk-bounces+peter.steinberg=thermofisher.com at autox.team.
> net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+peter.steinberg=thermofisher.com at aut
> ox.team.net] On Behalf Of Gerald Brazil
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:26 PM
> To: 'cornerexit'; 'Shop Talk'
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oh Noes!... HF threatening to stop
> catalog mailings!
>
> One thing they have seemed to drop is the weekly e mail with
> coupons for the store. I hate to admit it but I used to
> actually look forward to getting it and seeing what they had
> a coupon for that I imagined I needed. Usually there were
> always one or two things that would lure me into a visit.
>
> Some time last fall they quit sending them. I even went to
> their web site a couple of times and signed up again but
> never sent any more. I have talked to other people who say
> they are no longer getting them.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as peter.steinberg at thermofisher.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Sat Jan  5 14:59:17 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:59:17 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers
References: <019501c84e6f$84e6e540$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt><0JU300CYZKFCZVR0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20080104073345.00a087d0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <005401c84fe6$38363c50$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

OK, once again the Shop Talk Group came thru and saved the day!
Not only did the garage doors get fixed (they are both 13 year old
doors that over time had lost their adjustment and were "bouncing" or
hitting bottom and reversing.  The down travel limit was out of
adjustment.  While fixing the first door and at the same exact time, the
travel shoe that the chain is connected to, decided it also needed
adjustment (it was jammed against a stop bolt) and that delay the
speedy task of adjustment.

Also, in trying to download a PDF manual for the opener, my Adobe
Reader decided to die.  I downloaded a replacement 3 or 4 times,
completely deleted the old Adobe Reader, etc., all to no avail.
Finally I tried the Foxit PDF Reader.  It download and went to work
immediately!  Another tribute to the Shop Talk members.

Have a great weekend!
Go Seahawks!

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Garage Door Openers


| At 07:30 PM 1/3/2008 -0800, Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
| >Lots of great information.  I'm sure that I can handle this
| >on the weekend.  It's a bit dark and wet out tonight!  However,
| >in trying to download the pdf file I've just run into another 
situation.
| >My computer says that the program cannot be read because there's
| >no program associated with that type (pdf) to read it.  I'm supposed
| >to create an association by going to the Folder Options Control
| >Panel and create an association.  Anybody know where this Folder 
Option
| >Control Panel is located?  Running Windows XP Pro.
|
| Steve,
|
| Going to Control panel will let you set associations.  There are other 
ways
| also.  BUT, if you don't had a PDF reader loaded, you won't be able to
| open the file.  In other words, you can associate say a PDF file to be
| opened with say Notepad.  But Notepad, doesn't understand the data 
contained
| in the PDF file and wont display the file.
|
| You'll need a PDF reader first.  Yesterday, someone mentioned getting 
the
| Foxit_PDF_Reader22.  I got a copy from:
|
| http://www.download.com/Foxit-PDF-Reader/3000-2079_4-10313206.html
|
| It is truely great!  The new Adobie Reader is so fat it's rediculous.
|
| Regardless of what PDF reader you download (Adobie's or the Foxit one)
| both should make the association for you automatically.  If it doesn't
| then you'll need to make the association yourself.
|
| John
|
| John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
| Va. Beach, Va
| Phone:  (757) 495-8229
snip 

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  7 10:41:56 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher dilemma
Message-ID: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>

Hoping maybe someone on the list is or was a appliance repairman or something,
otherwise maybe just some suggestions would help.

Installed a lightly used GE Dishwasher I bought locally, into my rental
apartment this past weekend.

When I turned it on, it made an awful sound that appeared to come from the
pump.  Shut it off right away.  Tried a couple more times, same thing.  I've
heard some electrical motors that have started to go bad, there is usually a
grinding, whining noise, maybe a smell.  Didn't sense any of that.  Had no
idea at first what it was, but I was tired, it was late, so I left instead of
curse at it.

Thought about it later and realized that the nice guy that sold it to me said
he didn't have the screws for the kickplates, but had put the kickplates in
the dishwasher when he moved it.  So now I'm thinking some little sheet metal
screws are banging around in there, making that noise.

My question is, has it possibly been damaged beyond repair?  A new pump motor
costs $135.  I bought the D/W for $175.   Tough call there.

Anyone ever attempted something like this?  Just not sure if it'd be worth it.
I would plan on bringing the whole thing back to my house, and disassembling
it, then testing it before I put it back.

PJ


_________________________________________________________________
Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people making a real difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Jan  7 11:06:12 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:06:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher dilemma
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080107130612.00a1e398@pop.east.cox.net>

At 12:41 PM 1/7/2008 -0500, PJ McGarvey wrote:

>Installed a lightly used GE Dishwasher I bought locally, into my rental
>apartment this past weekend.
>
>When I turned it on, it made an awful sound that appeared to come from the
>pump.  Shut it off right away.  Tried a couple more times, same thing.  I've
>heard some electrical motors that have started to go bad, there is usually a
>grinding, whining noise, maybe a smell.  Didn't sense any of that.  Had no
>idea at first what it was, but I was tired, it was late, so I left instead of
>curse at it.

PJ,

My first thought is that the bearings for the motor are shot.  Did you look
at the motor?  See any whiteish stuff around it.  Usually an indication that
the seal between the motor and the inside of the DW is bad.  Then the water
getting into the motor kills the bearings.  

>Thought about it later and realized that the nice guy that sold it to me said
>he didn't have the screws for the kickplates, but had put the kickplates in
>the dishwasher when he moved it.  So now I'm thinking some little sheet metal
>screws are banging around in there, making that noise.

That's definately a possibility.  Try turning the motor by hand and see what
you feel and hear.  But the screws should be down around the motor shaft.
You should be able to see them, and fish them out with a magnet on a stick.

>My question is, has it possibly been damaged beyond repair?  A new pump motor
>costs $135.  I bought the D/W for $175.   Tough call there.

WOW!!!  $175 for a used DW?  I replaced the motor in my old DW years ago,
and it ran about $100 for the motor and impeller assembly.  So the $135
doesn't seem bad.  Is this DW a high end commercial unit?  I don't think
I paid $250 for my current DW new.  Yes you can spent a lot of $$ on one
with a stainless steel tub (inside), but why.  Just so it doesn't stain
like the plastic ones.  I can live with the stains for $400 or more.

Especially if this is a Rental place, you should be able to get a new
DW for under $300.  I just looked at HomeDepot.com and you can get a DW
for as little as $200 up to over $1.4K.  

If you can't find the screws inside the DW, I think I'd take my losses and
got buy a new unit.  You get new baskets, motor, heating unit, valves,
and a new interior for just a little more than you'll pay for the motor.

>Anyone ever attempted something like this?  Just not sure if it'd be worth
it.
>I would plan on bringing the whole thing back to my house, and disassembling
>it, then testing it before I put it back.

I did it on the original one when I bougth the house.  When the replacement
motor failed, I said the heck with it and bought a new unit for about $250.

To replace the motor in my old unit, the motor and impeller assembly came
out as a unit.  You had to jack the motor up into the DW.  The new one pressed
down into the DW.  Actually that was very simple to replace.  Just expensive.

John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan  7 14:17:57 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:17:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher dilemma
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> My question is, has it possibly been damaged beyond repair?  

Possibly, but if it's just those screws, it seems unlikely to me.  I'd be
more worried about the screens that are apparently missing.

Not sure why you are asking us; have it apart and see what's making the
racket.

Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Jan  7 17:52:33 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:52:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher dilemma
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <021701c85190$c22d5370$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

PJ,

As John stated, rental unit = cheap unit.

Because I know they will be abused, I tend to install new, but bottom end
"Name Brand" appliances.  Your local shop knows which units are cheap
versions of the better units.  I shoot for 5+ year life out of anything with
renters using it.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of PJ
McGarvey
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:42 AM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dishwasher dilemma

Hoping maybe someone on the list is or was a appliance repairman or
something, otherwise maybe just some suggestions would help.

Installed a lightly used GE Dishwasher I bought locally, into my rental
apartment this past weekend.

When I turned it on, it made an awful sound that appeared to come from the
pump.  Shut it off right away.  Tried a couple more times, same thing.  I've
heard some electrical motors that have started to go bad, there is usually a
grinding, whining noise, maybe a smell.  Didn't sense any of that.  Had no
idea at first what it was, but I was tired, it was late, so I left instead
of curse at it.

Thought about it later and realized that the nice guy that sold it to me
said he didn't have the screws for the kickplates, but had put the
kickplates in the dishwasher when he moved it.  So now I'm thinking some
little sheet metal screws are banging around in there, making that noise.

My question is, has it possibly been damaged beyond repair?  A new pump
motor
costs $135.  I bought the D/W for $175.   Tough call there.

Anyone ever attempted something like this?  Just not sure if it'd be worth
it.
I would plan on bringing the whole thing back to my house, and disassembling
it, then testing it before I put it back.

PJ


_________________________________________________________________
Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people making a real difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan  8 12:38:21 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:38:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
	<053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Okay, shop talkers, here's a puzzle.

One of the guys on another list has just completed a bathroom remodel.

The problem he is having, however, is that hot water doesn't drain as
fast from his sink as cold water does.  The plumbing system has a water
softener that feeds both hot and colt water if that matters.

Here's one of the quotes:

"It seems to drain fine when it's cold but when I add hot water to the
mix it begins to back up into the sink with intermittent gurgling
bubbles rising from the drain pipe."

So, what could be the problem?



Tim Mullen

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan  8 12:44:34 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:44:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl><053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> The problem he is having, however, is that hot water doesn't drain as
> fast from his sink as cold water does. 

I'm guessing it has nothing to do with how warm the water going into the
drain is; but rather that hot+cold flows in faster than cold alone and is
also more turbulent/traps more air.  My bathroom sink does the same thing.

Randall

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Jan  8 13:39:32 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:39:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
	<053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220801081239h1454fec3o16c8bcc2ab056ce4@mail.gmail.com>

Tim,

I'm glad that I'm not the only scientist puzzled by that.  My theory was the
same as Randall's.  To test it, I would measure the flow from the faucet of
hot and cold water.

-Paul
On Jan 8, 2008 2:38 PM, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:

> Okay, shop talkers, here's a puzzle.
>
> One of the guys on another list has just completed a bathroom remodel.
>
> The problem he is having, however, is that hot water doesn't drain as
> fast from his sink as cold water does.  The plumbing system has a water
> softener that feeds both hot and colt water if that matters.
>
> Here's one of the quotes:
>
> "It seems to drain fine when it's cold but when I add hot water to the
> mix it begins to back up into the sink with intermittent gurgling
> bubbles rising from the drain pipe."
>
> So, what could be the problem?
>
>
>
> Tim Mullen
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Jan  8 14:08:40 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:08:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
	<053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <0JUC006OIFZ8O650@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, he could always do an experiment.  Fill bucket with hot 
water.  Dump it in and time it.  Fill bucket with cold water.  Dump 
and time again.  Can also time the filling of the bucket to see if 
you are getting more flow with the hot.

-Steve

At 02:44 PM 1/8/2008, Randall wrote:

>I'm guessing it has nothing to do with how warm the water going into the
>drain is; but rather that hot+cold flows in faster than cold alone and is
>also more turbulent/traps more air.  My bathroom sink does the same thing.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Jan  8 14:10:21 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:10:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl><053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C65994@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randal wrote:

> I'm guessing it has nothing to do with how warm the water going
> into the drain is; but rather that hot+cold flows in faster than
> cold alone and is also more turbulent/traps more air.  My bathroom
> sink does the same thing.


Randall is apparently correct.

It was all a matter of perception.

In a "controlled" experiment, the sink was filled with cold water and
drained.  Then filled with hot water and drained.  It was repeated
several times.

It took the same time to drain under all the conditions.

I suspected that the flow rate was higher for hot and cold combined (or
just the hot alone) and apparently that was it.  But I figured I'd ask
the list just in case there could be some weird reason that hot went
down the drain slower.


Tim Mullen

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jan  9 06:01:13 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:01:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C65994@XMBIL103.northgrum. com>
References: <003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl>
	<053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080109080113.00a188e0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 03:10 PM 1/8/2008 -0600, Mullen, Tim wrote:
>Randal wrote:
>
>> I'm guessing it has nothing to do with how warm the water going
>> into the drain is; but rather that hot+cold flows in faster than
>> cold alone and is also more turbulent/traps more air.  My bathroom
>> sink does the same thing.
>
>
>Randall is apparently correct.
>
>It was all a matter of perception.
>
>In a "controlled" experiment, the sink was filled with cold water and
>drained.  Then filled with hot water and drained.  It was repeated
>several times.
>
>It took the same time to drain under all the conditions.
>

Tim,

I agree with Randall.

However, the above test saturated the system, so it should have actually 
drained a little slower than if just one of the faucets were turned on.

>I suspected that the flow rate was higher for hot and cold combined (or
>just the hot alone) and apparently that was it.  But I figured I'd ask
>the list just in case there could be some weird reason that hot went
>down the drain slower.

Now while this starts to explain things, he still may have an underlying
problem.  He may have some crud/blockage in the pipes someplace.  Has/does
he regularly run some drain cleaner down the drains?  Does he have a lot
of trees around the house?  Where does he live?

I've never really had any problems with the drains in my house.  I've been
in this house in Virginia Beach, VA since 84.  This year we've had a pretty
bad drought.  One day I heard this girggling in the bathroom and went in
to see the toilets bubbling violently and then all the water drained from
the toilets.  This happened on several occasions.  Then one day, I got the
bad tell tail sign, crud coming up in the bath tubs.  I had to have the
pipes roto-rootered out.  My guess is that the trees were looking for
water and managed to break into the drain pipes and clogged them.

The plumber sold me some "crystals" that you dump into the toilets once
a month to kill tree roots.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Wed Jan  9 09:13:08 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:13:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080109080113.00a188e0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <002001c852da$8ab5fd70$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

As long as we are talking about slow drains I have a weird story to tell.

A few years ago our upstairs bathrooms started draining extremely slow for
no apparent reason. When the toilets flush they would almost run over. I
tried all the usual solutions,,,,Draino, Liquid Plumber, plungers, drain
snakes and still the problem persisted.

I finally bit the bullet and called a plumber. He went through the same
routine and got the same results. Finally, he said, "I've got another idea.
Do you have a ladder so I can get up on the roof?" I said "Yes" but I
wondered why a plumber would want to go up on the roof.

He went up with a hand drill snake. He went over to the vent stack and
started the drain snake down. Within a few seconds he said, "I've found your
problem" He removed the snake and in the coils on the end were a bunch of
soggy feathers and what had once been a Blue Jay. He ran the snake up and
down a few more time and brought out some more remains. He asked me to go in
and test the plumbing. It worked fine. The plugged vent stack was making the
system drain slowly because there was no air getting in at the top

What are the odds of something like this happening? I don't know but I have
since put screen caps over my vent stacks.....

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Jan  9 09:47:19 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:47:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080109080113.00a188e0@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><BAY108-W14CE56BD99B82378A299B59A4F0@phx.gbl><053501c85172$c740e660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C6583E@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><003301c8522e$eba45d90$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20080109080113.00a188e0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797C65DB1@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

John T. Blair wrote:

> I agree with Randall.
>
> However, the above test saturated the system, so it should
> have actually  drained a little slower than if just one of
> the faucets were turned on.


Yep.  When he filled up the sink and turned the water off then pulled
the plug, it took the same amount of time to drain - hot or cold.  It
was just that when he filled the sink with a "mix" it filled faster than
cold alone, so the perception was that it drained slower with hot water.

> This year we've had a pretty bad drought.  <...> My guess is
> that the trees were looking for water and managed to break into
> the drain pipes and clogged them.

First house I owned had this problem.  We had to remove the tree, dig up
the yard, and run a new line to the street.  I also had to rent the
roto-router about every year and a half to clean out the line.  If you
ever have to dig up the line, make sure they run a "Y" in the line and
run a pipe to the surface with a cap - then you can easily run the
roto-router without much difficulty.  I also had to clean out from the
vent pipe a couple of times (including the time that my young child
thought it would be "normal" to flush a stuffed animal...).

> The plumber sold me some "crystals" that you dump into the
> toilets once a month to kill tree roots.

That would be copper sulfate - it turns blue in the water.  The copper
sulfate kills off tree roots.  Commonly sold in hard ware stores and
identified as "root killer".  Good stuff.  Used it on our first house,
and on our current house.

Our current house is troubled by a "slow drain" for the washing machine.
We do the cupper sulfate thing about every six months, and the "gunk
eating bacteria" things every now and then.  I have had to install a
"regulator" (a piece of copper tubing squished to restrict water flow)
on the end of the washing machine drain hose.  Still, every now and
then, the washing machine will pump water out faster than the drain can
drain, and we get a wet floor (on a slap so no damage).  Then I have to
go into drain cleaning mode again.  We've lived in the house for 15
years now, and I've had to "roto-route" the drain twice now.  Usually
the chemicals will clear things up though...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Jan  9 10:37:03 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:37:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
Message-ID: <200801091737.m09Hb3Yc021785@moose.dimebank.com>

> What are the odds of something like this happening?

Pretty good. And the fact that all the toilets were trying to overflow
was a clue that it was a vent problem... (for future reference).

Our old (1927) house has many vent stacks, but it seems that more
modern construction is reducing that, causing this sort of problem.

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Jan  9 11:08:28 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:08:28 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
Message-ID: <010920081808.10750.47850D9C0002DF11000029FE22070016419D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

> > This year we've had a pretty bad drought.  <...> My guess is
> > that the trees were looking for water and managed to break into
> > the drain pipes and clogged them.

Your sewer service already leaked.  Older sewer services were made with either clay or iron pipe in short sections with bell fittings.  The fittings leak.  The roots find the nutrients in the sewage and follow it back to the pipe.  Small roots go in through the leaking area and into the pipe.  Sometimes they just grow a big ball in there and plug the service.  Other times the roots grow in diameter and break the pipe.

> First house I owned had this problem.  We had to remove the tree, dig up
> the yard, and run a new line to the street.  I also had to rent the
> roto-router about every year and a half to clean out the line.

Hold the phone.  If you ran new Schedule 40 PVC pipe from the house all the way to the sewer main, you should never have to see a sewer cleaner again.  A PVC line with proper pitch and glued connections does not attract trees and does not clog.  I suggest that you have your service televised to see what the problem is.

> If you
> ever have to dig up the line, make sure they run a "Y" in the line and
> run a pipe to the surface with a cap - then you can easily run the
> roto-router without much difficulty. 

We here in the Sewer Utility in Saint Paul requre such a cleanout at least every 100 feet. They are usually capped and buried about 6 inches below grade.  You can find it again using the permit drawing (your city DOES keep records, right?), but people virtually never have to if the whole system was replaced.  In any case, most house services are shorter than 100 feet, so we rely on the cleanout inside the house.

> I also had to clean out from the
> vent pipe a couple of times (including the time that my young child
> thought it would be "normal" to flush a stuffed animal...).

Yes, that's fun.  If you don't mind roofs, it may be easier than pulling the toilet off the floor.  I'm surprised that the stuffed animal made it through the toilet, though.  I'd think that anything that makes it through a toilet should make it the rest of the way, but there are some sub-optimal plumbing designs out there.

> > The plumber sold me some "crystals" that you dump into the
> > toilets once a month to kill tree roots.
> 
> That would be copper sulfate - it turns blue in the water.  The copper
> sulfate kills off tree roots.  Commonly sold in hard ware stores and
> identified as "root killer".  Good stuff.  Used it on our first house,
> and on our current house.
> 
> Our current house is troubled by a "slow drain" for the washing machine.
> We do the copper sulfate thing about every six months, and the "gunk
> eating bacteria" things every now and then.  I have had to install a
> "regulator" (a piece of copper tubing squished to restrict water flow)
> on the end of the washing machine drain hose.  Still, every now and
> then, the washing machine will pump water out faster than the drain can
> drain, and we get a wet floor (on a slap so no damage).  Then I have to
> go into drain cleaning mode again.  We've lived in the house for 15
> years now, and I've had to "roto-route" the drain twice now.  Usually
> the chemicals will clear things up though...

Again, I suggest a TV job to see what is really going on.  The problem may be under your slab, in which case, you are maybe wasting your time with anti-root chemicals.

There are companies that will line your service with a resin-product-saturated fabric.  You wind up with a fiberglass-like liner.  We do this with our main lines, but their use on private sewers hereabouts is somewhat experimental.


--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan  9 11:16:57 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:16:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <200801091737.m09Hb3Yc021785@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200801091737.m09Hb3Yc021785@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801091016i41d898cdy23bf128d298983c9@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 9, 2008 12:37 PM, Chris Kantarjiev <cak at dimebank.com> wrote:
> > What are the odds of something like this happening?
>
> Pretty good. And the fact that all the toilets were trying to overflow
> was a clue that it was a vent problem... (for future reference).
>
> Our old (1927) house has many vent stacks, but it seems that more
> modern construction is reducing that, causing this sort of problem.

Fewer penetrations through the insulation envelope is a good thing.  A
surprising amount of heat is lost around them.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan  9 11:19:43 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:19:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <010920081808.10750.47850D9C0002DF11000029FE22070016419D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <010920081808.10750.47850D9C0002DF11000029FE22070016419D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <011401c852ec$352b5190$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> A PVC line with proper pitch

Aye, there's the rub.  I have a similar problem with slow washing machine
drain, and it's my opinion that the line has the wrong pitch (possibly even
backwards pitch) allowing sediment and lint to collect and eventually clog
the line.

But in my case, copper sulphate does nothing to help; and the 'digester
bacteria' stuff rarely helps.  Last time round, the bacteria helped only by
clogging the line completely, so I could blow the plug through with water
pressure.

Randall

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Wed Jan  9 12:43:28 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:43:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <011401c852ec$352b5190$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <004301c852f7$f13dad50$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

Speaking of lint from washers.....one of the best cheap preventive measures
you can get is to go to your neighborhood True Value store and buy a lint
trap to go on the end of your washer discharge. It looks sort of like a
plastic net condom. You used a wire tire to fasten it on. Check it every few
months. You will be surprised how much lint you collect

My washer goes into a sump pump and before I started using these I would
have to disassemble my pump (a dirty job!) about every 6 months. By
replacing the trap regularly, I have avoided this nasty task.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan  9 12:51:37 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:51:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <004301c852f7$f13dad50$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <011401c852ec$352b5190$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<004301c852f7$f13dad50$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801091151q5f22430keb607f9077c017a7@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 9, 2008 2:43 PM, Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> wrote:
> Speaking of lint from washers.....one of the best cheap preventive measures
> you can get is to go to your neighborhood True Value store and buy a lint
> trap to go on the end of your washer discharge. It looks sort of like a
> plastic net condom. You used a wire tire to fasten it on. Check it every few
> months. You will be surprised how much lint you collect
>
> My washer goes into a sump pump and before I started using these I would
> have to disassemble my pump (a dirty job!) about every 6 months. By
> replacing the trap regularly, I have avoided this nasty task.

My mother used to tie a nylon stocking to the end of the washing machine hose.
Same idea.  Modern washers should be much gentler on clothes, though.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Jan  9 18:00:50 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:00:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] dry cut metal saw
Message-ID: <00cc01c85324$3e9465e0$6401a8c0@niolon>

I don't know if this qualifies as a "tip or trick" or more of a tool 
recommendations.

Back a few months ago a member of the Ford site I frequent  told me about a 
dry cut metal saw blade that could replace an abrasive blade in a chop saw. 
They can handle the chop saw speed. They are made by Bullet Industries.  The 
14" model (chop saw size) is about 50 bucks.  I ordered and finally got to 
install tonight.

clamped in a piece of 2x2x<" angle iron and dropped the blade down.. It 
almost fell thru the metal !!!  If you've used a chop saw you know about 
pressure on the blade and the mess it makes.  Only the lightest pressure is 
needed...just let the blade do the work.  It's like a hot knife thru soft 
butter..  The output was very fine chips of metal that pretty much stay 
close to where you're cutting and not floating around in the air and up your 
nose like the abrasive dust.

I can't say anything about longevity yet, but for speed of cut and ease of 
cut this is the best I've found... check them out below.  If you do a lot of 
fabricating and cutting... this really seems like the way to go....


http://www.bulletindustries.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/99_144/products_id/784

john

All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. 

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Jan  9 20:12:05 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:12:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] dry cut metal saw
In-Reply-To: <00cc01c85324$3e9465e0$6401a8c0@niolon>
References: <00cc01c85324$3e9465e0$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <bdde53220801091912l58ccd823v4c056986e75f774a@mail.gmail.com>

Morse makes a similar product called the Metal Devil saw blades.  There are
a ton of videos of them cutting all kinds of metal (plate, unistrut, angle,
etc) on their website.
-Paul

On Jan 9, 2008 8:00 PM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:

> I don't know if this qualifies as a "tip or trick" or more of a tool
> recommendations.
>
> Back a few months ago a member of the Ford site I frequent  told me about
> a
> dry cut metal saw blade that could replace an abrasive blade in a chop
> saw.
> They can handle the chop saw speed. They are made by Bullet Industries.
>  The
> 14" model (chop saw size) is about 50 bucks.  I ordered and finally got to
> install tonight.
>
> clamped in a piece of 2x2x<" angle iron and dropped the blade down.. It
> almost fell thru the metal !!!  If you've used a chop saw you know about
> pressure on the blade and the mess it makes.  Only the lightest pressure
> is
> needed...just let the blade do the work.  It's like a hot knife thru soft
> butter..  The output was very fine chips of metal that pretty much stay
> close to where you're cutting and not floating around in the air and up
> your
> nose like the abrasive dust.
>
> I can't say anything about longevity yet, but for speed of cut and ease of
> cut this is the best I've found... check them out below.  If you do a lot
> of
> fabricating and cutting... this really seems like the way to go....
>
>
>
> http://www.bulletindustries.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/99_144/products_id/784
>
> john
>
> All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From shiples at comcast.net  Wed Jan  9 23:33:49 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:33:49 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hot/Cold drain
In-Reply-To: <010920081808.10750.47850D9C0002DF11000029FE22070016419D0A0
	7089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080109221331.0319c420@mail.comcast.net>

>There are companies that will line your service with a 
>resin-product-saturated fabric.  You wind up with a fiberglass-like 
>liner.  We do this with our main lines, but their use on private sewers 
>hereabouts is somewhat experimental.
My family has three houses all served by a common sewer which is having 
root problems.  The sewer contractor managed to clear the line and now is 
recommending the cast in place liner.  At $150 a foot it makes ditch 
digging seem like a fun hobby.  Ten grand buys a lot of visits from 
Roto-Rooter.

Steve Shipley

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jan 10 05:34:44 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:34:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] dry cut metal saw
In-Reply-To: <00cc01c85324$3e9465e0$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080110073444.00a115c8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 07:00 PM 1/9/2008 -0600, john niolon wrote:

>I don't know if this qualifies as a "tip or trick" or more of a tool 
>recommendations.
>
>Back a few months ago a member of the Ford site I frequent  told me about a 
>dry cut metal saw blade that could replace an abrasive blade in a chop saw. 
>They can handle the chop saw speed. They are made by Bullet Industries.  The 
>14" model (chop saw size) is about 50 bucks.  I ordered and finally got to 
>install tonight.
>
>clamped in a piece of 2x2x<" angle iron and dropped the blade down.. It 
>almost fell thru the metal !!!....

John,

Thanks for sharing that.  I just finished putting put 5 new vinyl columns, 
stair rails & posts, and hand railing on my front porch.  What fun that 
was, having never done a job like that.  (If any one's interested in the
project email me privately, and I'll send you 9 page article I wrote about
the problems and tips.)  One of the things we had to do was cut the new 
columns to length.  They consisted of a aluminumn hollow square tube, 
surrounded with wood, then covered in vinyl.  

I don't own a chop saw, but have thought about buying one for years.  I
didn't use this project as an excuse because I thought the chop saw would
turn way too fast for the vinyl and metal.

Luckily a friend has a porta-band (portable, handheld band saw) that we
used to cut the columns.  For the vinyl railing and AL. reinforcements I
used a manual hack saw.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 10 09:46:13 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:46:13 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] dry cut metal saw
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080110073444.00a115c8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20080110164613.WFNJ5487.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>

> One of the things we had to do was cut 
> the new columns to length.  They consisted of a aluminumn 
> hollow square tube, surrounded with wood, then covered in vinyl.  

It takes a steady hand, but I have cut things like that using an ordinary
Skil saw and carbide-tipped fine tooth plywood blade.  Didn't seem to harm
the blade at all (tho it was cheap enough that I wouldn't have minded
discarding it after the job).

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jan 10 12:10:44 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:10:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] dry cut metal saw
In-Reply-To: <20080110164613.WFNJ5487.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080110073444.00a115c8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080110141044.00a386d0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 08:46 AM 1/10/2008 -0800, Randall wrote:
>> One of the things we had to do was cut 
>> the new columns to length.  They consisted of a aluminumn 
>> hollow square tube, surrounded with wood, then covered in vinyl.  
>
>It takes a steady hand, but I have cut things like that using an ordinary
>Skil saw and carbide-tipped fine tooth plywood blade.  Didn't seem to harm
>the blade at all (tho it was cheap enough that I wouldn't have minded
>discarding it after the job).

Randall,

I'd have never thought to use a skill saw.  Again, I'd have thought it
turned too fast.  Thanks for the tip.  Guess I should have consulted the
list before I tackled the last project. :)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Jan 10 17:28:16 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:28:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] dry cut metal saw
References: <00cc01c85324$3e9465e0$6401a8c0@niolon>
	<bdde53220801091912l58ccd823v4c056986e75f774a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008801c853e8$dc812b70$6401a8c0@niolon>

Paul,

nice videos   but after looking at the specs, their 14" blade is only rated 
for 1800 rpm.  My old chop saw turns over 3000 rpm.

they are higher priced between 150 and 200 bucks but that doesn't mean they 
aren't better blades... time will tell on my Bullet I guess

john



All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Parkanzky
  To: john niolon
  Cc: shop-talk
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dry cut metal saw


  Morse makes a similar product called the Metal Devil saw blades.  There 
are a ton of videos of them cutting all kinds of metal (plate, unistrut, 
angle, etc) on their website.


  -Paul


  On Jan 9, 2008 8:00 PM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:

    I don't know if this qualifies as a "tip or trick" or more of a tool
    recommendations.

    Back a few months ago a member of the Ford site I frequent  told me 
about a
    dry cut metal saw blade that could replace an abrasive blade in a chop 
saw.
    They can handle the chop saw speed. They are made by Bullet Industries. 
The
    14" model (chop saw size) is about 50 bucks.  I ordered and finally got 
to
    install tonight.

    clamped in a piece of 2x2x<" angle iron and dropped the blade down.. It
    almost fell thru the metal !!!  If you've used a chop saw you know about
    pressure on the blade and the mess it makes.  Only the lightest pressure 
is
    needed...just let the blade do the work.  It's like a hot knife thru 
soft
    butter..  The output was very fine chips of metal that pretty much stay
    close to where you're cutting and not floating around in the air and up 
your
    nose like the abrasive dust.

    I can't say anything about longevity yet, but for speed of cut and ease 
of
    cut this is the best I've found... check them out below.  If you do a 
lot of
    fabricating and cutting... this really seems like the way to go....


    http://www.bulletindustries.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/99_144/products_id/784

    john

    All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
    _______________________________________________
    Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

    You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com

    Shop-talk mailing list

    http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

    http://www.team.net/archive





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 1/9/2008 
10:16 AM

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Jan 12 23:38:10 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:38:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
Message-ID: <4789B1D2.8070109@enter.net>

We need to attach powder-coated steel to the outside of a painted 
aluminum truck body. I don't want to set up a galvanic reaction and I've 
never pop riveted anything into aluminum.
-How do we prevent galvanic corrosion?
-Are there special pop-rivets or tools for putting rivet into aluminum?

The truck body is held together with some large diameter rivets, but I 
am guessing they had two-sided access when they assembled it. We only 
have access from one side.

Jon

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jan 13 06:55:02 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:55:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080113085502.00a0fff8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 01:38 AM 1/13/2008 -0500, Rush wrote:

>We need to attach powder-coated steel to the outside of a painted 
>aluminum truck body. I don't want to set up a galvanic reaction and I've 
>never pop riveted anything into aluminum.

Jon,

That's kind of the nice thing about pop rivets - the will join anything
since it's mechanical attachment like a nut & bolt.

>-How do we prevent galvanic corrosion?

For galvanic reaction to take place both the metals would have to be bare.
Since the steel is power coated, and I assume the Al truck body is treated
(ie. painted), then the only place that you'd have any bare metal is in 
the middle of the holes that you drill to put the pop rivet.

>-Are there special pop-rivets or tools for putting rivet into aluminum?

The pop rivet gun really doesn't touch the base metals.  The gun only 
touches the head of the rivet.  As you pull on the trigger it pulls a
plug from the back of the pop rivet towards the gun until it deforms 
the rivet enough to get stuck and the pin in the head of the rivet 
snaps or pops.

Have you ever used a pop rivet gun?  It's not hard.  It's like a heavy
duty stapler, sort of.  But they have different heads that screw into
the barrel to accomodate different diameter pop rivets.  You push the
nail like piece into the gun, then press the pop rivet into the hole,
and squeeze the trigger until the nail head pops.  Remove the nail 
piece, insert a new pop rivet and go on to the next mounting hole.

Other than that no special tools are required.  How heavy is this item
you're planning to attach.  If you are afraid that it will pull the rivets
out, then they do make rivet washers that you place on the back side of
the rivet, if you can reach it, to help spread the forces just like a 
regular washer does with nuts & bolts.

>The truck body is held together with some large diameter rivets, but I 
>am guessing they had two-sided access when they assembled it. We only 
>have access from one side.

Are you sure the rivets are pretty large?  The reason I ask, is that in
most cases the truck panels are glued together now, and the pop rivets
are used as clamps to hold the pieces of the body together while the glue
drys.  

The make 2 different styles of pop rivets, a regular head and a large
head.  I think there is a name for them, but I can't think of it off
hand.  On my Bricklin, they used 3/16" diameter large head pop rivets
to hold the body panels in place while the glue that attached the 
fiberglass and acrylic skin to the body.  Other parts of the car, they 
used 3/16" dia. regular head pop rivets to hold other things in place.

In addition to the 2 styles, they make at least 2 different types based
on the metal make up.  Most pop rivets are Al. but they do make steel
pop rivets where you need extra strength.  They also make a plastic
pop rivet, I believe.

Hope this helps.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Sun Jan 13 08:05:00 2008
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:05:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
Message-ID: <20080113150457.CA14A1879C9@autox.team.net>

Years ago when I was still in the Air Force (Corrosion Control) we found a table of the galvanic differences between various materials.  I recall that the difference between mild steel and aluminum was minimal whereas between mild steel and stainless steel was significant.  Sort of turned our pre-conceived notions inside out.  We would on occaision repair vehicles other than airplanes, and since aluminum was readily available, it found its way in to a lot of cars, trucks and snowmobiles.  I didn't stay in long enough to see any long term results.
-----Original Message-----

From:  Rush <jdrush at enter.net>
Subj:  [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
Date:  Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:37 am
Size:  717 bytes
To:  Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>

We need to attach powder-coated steel to the outside of a painted 
aluminum truck body. I don't want to set up a galvanic reaction and I've 
never pop riveted anything into aluminum.
-How do we prevent galvanic corrosion?
-Are there special pop-rivets or tools for putting rivet into aluminum?

The truck body is held together with some large diameter rivets, but I 
am guessing they had two-sided access when they assembled it. We only 
have access from one side.

Jon
_

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 08:12:41 2008
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:12:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
References: <3.0.5.32.20080113085502.00a0fff8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <003e01c855f6$beece0d0$0202a8c0@watsongxpejt9r>

Hi, Guys,

    Just a thought about this thread.  Quoted below John makes an excellent 
point:

<snip>
>
>>The truck body is held together with some large diameter rivets, but I
>>am guessing they had two-sided access when they assembled it. We only
>>have access from one side.
>
> Are you sure the rivets are pretty large?  *=*=*> The reason I ask, is 
> that in
> most cases the truck panels are glued together now, and the pop rivets
> are used as clamps to hold the pieces of the body together while the glue
> drys.  <*=*=*
>
    The other day I was talking with (OK - I was pumping him for knowledge!) 
the local Loctite rep (at our sons' Tae Kwon Do class) and he said the same 
thing.  One of his clients is a bus body maker and that's exactly what they 
do - glue it together with rivets to hold it while the glue dries.

Based on this I ask:  Jon,

    Have you thought about using the same technique for your need?  You 
would certainly avoid any galvanic problems and since you can spread the 
glue over the entire contact surface area (depending on how big that is) you 
lower the required strength per unit area of holding force.

    I  suggest that you contact at least one manufacturer's rep about this 
need.  Of course having just talked with a Loctite rep and grilled him about 
their catalog products I'd suggest a quick call to them.  The rep might be 
willing to drop by for a quick chat or might quiz you on the phone and be 
honest about them not having an appropriate product.  When I was working in 
the engineering area I used to be shy about "wasting" their time but one rep 
set me straight - that's what they are paid to do and they believe that any 
"small" sale can lead to a future "big" sale on another project.

    There are other competing adhesive manufacturers like Devcon that might 
be willing to help as well.  Anybody else got any other suggestions?

    Good luck and let us know what you end up doing - inquiring minds want 
to know!

Mark Watson
1956 Daimler Regency Mk II '104' - long long term restoration project
1965 Ford Falcon - until recently daily driver
other misc 4 wheeled transportation pods

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Jan 13 08:31:41 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:31:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <4789B1D2.8070109@enter.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c855f9$6a0158f0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

I spread a thin layer of silicon caulk between the two pieces. I did this on
a race car I restored in '87 and there is absolutely no sign of galvanic
reaction.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Rush
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:38 AM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum


We need to attach powder-coated steel to the outside of a painted
aluminum truck body. I don't want to set up a galvanic reaction and I've
never pop riveted anything into aluminum.
-How do we prevent galvanic corrosion?
-Are there special pop-rivets or tools for putting rivet into aluminum?

The truck body is held together with some large diameter rivets, but I
am guessing they had two-sided access when they assembled it. We only
have access from one side.

Jon
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Jan 13 09:37:19 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:37:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
Message-ID: <200801131637.m0DGbJom007723@moose.dimebank.com>

> I spread a thin layer of silicon caulk between the two pieces. I did this on
> a race car I restored in '87 and there is absolutely no sign of galvanic
> reaction.

I read this differently - that the concern for galvanic reaction
is at the drilled rivet holes, which will be bare steel and bare aluminum.

If the pieces are pre-drilled and then powder-coated/anodized/passivated,
I would expect no problems at all.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Jan 13 12:05:58 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:05:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <003e01c855f6$beece0d0$0202a8c0@watsongxpejt9r>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080113085502.00a0fff8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080113140558.00a165a8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 10:12 AM 1/13/2008 -0500, Mark Watson wrote:
>> Are you sure the rivets are pretty large?  *=*=*> The reason I ask, is 
>> that in
>> most cases the truck panels are glued together now, and the pop rivets
>> are used as clamps to hold the pieces of the body together while the glue
>> drys.  <*=*=*
>>
>    The other day I was talking with (OK - I was pumping him for knowledge!) 
>the local Loctite rep (at our sons' Tae Kwon Do class) and he said the same 
>thing.  One of his clients is a bus body maker and that's exactly what they 
>do - glue it together with rivets to hold it while the glue dries.

Jon & Mark,

There are a lot of compaines that are making adheasives for this purpose.
3M has been mailing a 2 part adheasive for the Corvetts for years.
Silkaflex also make several products.  On my Bricklin, the current adheasive
for choice is Norton Speed Grip, which is what I'm using to reattach attach
my door skins to the steel door.

Most of these products are 2 parts, and require a special applicator gun.
For the Norton, the gun is about $55, and the glue is about $25 per load
(the 2 tubes).  I tube will do about 25 linear feet.

Depending on the weight of the metal object Jon is trying to hang, it may
not be worth the cost for the glue and the gun.  Especially if it's a 1 time
thing.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 13 13:48:51 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:48:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080113140558.00a165a8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20080113204852.NDBH24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

> Most of these products are 2 parts, and require a special 
> applicator gun.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the gun & nozzle (some systems use
disposable nozzles as well) are absolutely necessary.  If you work quickly,
you can hand-mix small batches and apply it like epoxy.

Randall

From shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org  Sun Jan 13 13:59:34 2008
From: shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org (Ian)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:59:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bookcase lighting
Message-ID: <PC176020080113155934054674d24a04@tvr>

A while back I sought some input on cabinet lighting and said I would update the list when I finally finished--better late than never, I say!

The lights are LED strips from IKEA:  Dioder  $50 for a 4 pack of 1 foot long LED strips, including mounting brackets and 120V plug, power supply, and switch.  
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50119407

Installation:  I found it difficult to place the strips in our bookcases such that they were not directly visible or visible as a reflection--we wanted truly indirect lighting.  I finally settled on putting two at the top, one at the botton and one at the side, all hidden by the closed door, but clearly visible when the door is open.  I ran the low voltage wiring up to the top of the cabinet where I have the transformers (about he size of a matchbox) and switch hidden behind the molding.  

Pros:  For cabinet lighting they were relatively cheap.  The halogen sets with brass reflectors looked nicer when the doors are open, but were about twice as expensive.  The operating cost is nice too, each 4-strip unit draws 11W IIRC and have a service life of 20,000 - 50,000 hours.  I have them plugged into a photosensor so they come on automatically at night and act as the night light in the room.  They also do not generate any noticeable heat at the light emitters, which was important to us since we planned to leave them on most of the time.  

Cons:  They aren't the most attractive units when visible and it's difficult to hide the wiring.  The light is quite strong, but is more of a bluish white than a warm yellowish white.  

Some pictures of the installation.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ianmcfetridge

Let me know if you have any questions.

- Ian

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Sun Jan 13 15:44:55 2008
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:44:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] radiant heat
Message-ID: <002101c85635$eb683670$0201000a@Fest>

We are redoing our kitchen soon and were thinking of installing radiant heat
in the floor.  It's an older house and there is no basement or crawlspace
under the kitchen.  We will be putting down a new floor so we'll have access
between the floor joist from the top.  Does anyone have any experience with
the different systems available and is it something I can do myself ??
Thanks,
Dan

From shoptalk2 at centipi.com  Sun Jan 13 15:55:59 2008
From: shoptalk2 at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:55:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] radiant heat
In-Reply-To: <002101c85635$eb683670$0201000a@Fest>
References: <002101c85635$eb683670$0201000a@Fest>
Message-ID: <004101c85637$773ac770$6801a8c0@proteus457>

If there is no crawlspace, are you sure there are floor joists and not just
a concrete slab?

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)
> 
> We are redoing our kitchen soon and were thinking of installing radiant
> heat
> in the floor.  It's an older house and there is no basement or crawlspace
> under the kitchen.  We will be putting down a new floor so we'll have
> access
> between the floor joist from the top.  Does anyone have any experience
> with
> the different systems available and is it something I can do myself ??
> Thanks,
> Dan

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 16:12:40 2008
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:12:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bookcase lighting
References: <PC176020080113155934054674d24a04@tvr>
Message-ID: <001201c85639$ccc423b0$0202a8c0@watsongxpejt9r>

Ian,

    Nice job.  Thanks for updating us as well.  I've been toying with some 
cabinet lighting similar to what you've done and it's nice to see how 
someone else has done it.

    Nice touch with the image with the clearly visible "Unix In A Nutshell" 
book.  Does that say something about you? ;-)

    Thanks again,

Mark Watson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian" <shop-talk2 at mcfetridge.org>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 3:59 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bookcase lighting


>A while back I sought some input on cabinet lighting and said I would 
>update the list when I finally finished--better late than never, I say!
>
> The lights are LED strips from IKEA:  Dioder  $50 for a 4 pack of 1 foot 
> long LED strips, including mounting brackets and 120V plug, power supply, 
> and switch.
> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50119407
>
> Installation:  I found it difficult to place the strips in our bookcases 
> such that they were not directly visible or visible as a reflection--we 
> wanted truly indirect lighting.  I finally settled on putting two at the 
> top, one at the botton and one at the side, all hidden by the closed door, 
> but clearly visible when the door is open.  I ran the low voltage wiring 
> up to the top of the cabinet where I have the transformers (about he size 
> of a matchbox) and switch hidden behind the molding.
>
> Pros:  For cabinet lighting they were relatively cheap.  The halogen sets 
> with brass reflectors looked nicer when the doors are open, but were about 
> twice as expensive.  The operating cost is nice too, each 4-strip unit 
> draws 11W IIRC and have a service life of 20,000 - 50,000 hours.  I have 
> them plugged into a photosensor so they come on automatically at night and 
> act as the night light in the room.  They also do not generate any 
> noticeable heat at the light emitters, which was important to us since we 
> planned to leave them on most of the time.
>
> Cons:  They aren't the most attractive units when visible and it's 
> difficult to hide the wiring.  The light is quite strong, but is more of a 
> bluish white than a warm yellowish white.
>
> Some pictures of the installation.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/ianmcfetridge
>
> Let me know if you have any questions.
>
> - Ian

From jdrush at enter.net  Sun Jan 13 22:43:47 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:43:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum (or Epoxy?)
In-Reply-To: <200801131637.m0DGbJom007723@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200801131637.m0DGbJom007723@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <478AF693.6090607@enter.net>

Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
>>I spread a thin layer of silicon caulk between the two pieces. I did this on
>>a race car I restored in '87 and there is absolutely no sign of galvanic
>>reaction.
> 
> 
> I read this differently - that the concern for galvanic reaction
> is at the drilled rivet holes, which will be bare steel and bare aluminum.

That is correct, I'm only worried about the holes I drill into the steel 
and aluminum with the rivet acting as the pathway. But a layer of 
silicon wouldn't be a bad idea to prevent fretting and long-term 
destruction of the coatings.

> If the pieces are pre-drilled and then powder-coated/anodized/passivated,
> I would expect no problems at all.

There are holes that are predrilled, but I think they are too large for 
rivets because they were designed for screws. I don't posses the steel 
so I can't measure them yet. So will most likely be drilling fresh holes 
in the steel.

Even if I do use the original holes, wouldn't the pressure of the pop 
rivet tend to disrupt the finish anyhow?

The mechanical strength required of these riveted connections will be 
tiny. These are small strips of steel. We are more concerned about 
smoothness, appearance and corrosion. I should look up John Blair's 
suggestion of plastic rivets. Or perhaps I should just epoxy these to 
the body. Any thoughts on what epoxy would do to automotive paint and 
powder coating?

Jon

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Jan 13 23:19:38 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:19:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum (or Epoxy?)
Message-ID: <200801140619.m0E6JcWk002605@moose.dimebank.com>

> The mechanical strength required of these riveted connections will be 
> tiny. These are small strips of steel. We are more concerned about 
> smoothness, appearance and corrosion. I should look up John Blair's 
> suggestion of plastic rivets. Or perhaps I should just epoxy these to 
> the body. Any thoughts on what epoxy would do to automotive paint and 
> powder coating?

Maybe you could use clecos to hold the items together while the 
bonding agent sets, and then fill the holes and skim with filler?

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Sun Jan 13 23:24:08 2008
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:24:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum (or Epoxy?)
In-Reply-To: <478AF693.6090607@enter.net>
Message-ID: <000201c85676$155d60f0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>

> There are holes that are predrilled, but I think they are too 
> large for rivets because they were designed for screws.

Something like this: http://www.thread-rite.com/pop_nuts/well_nut_sleve.htm
seems to address both  the oversize hole and galvanic action issues.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Jan 16 09:19:51 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:19:51 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum (or Epoxy?)
In-Reply-To: <000201c85676$155d60f0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
References: <478AF693.6090607@enter.net>
	<000201c85676$155d60f0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797D0AEE2@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Bob Kegel wrote:
>
> Something like this:
> http://www.thread-rite.com/pop_nuts/well_nut_sleve.htm
> seems to address both the oversize hole and galvanic action issues.

Well nuts actually work very well.

The roof rack on my old Jeep Cherokee was held on with well nuts.  It
was the way the factory installed the roof rack.  It was rated for
several hundred pounds, and I used to strap things down to the rack,
pulling "up" quite hard with my tie down straps.  Never a problem.

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Jan 17 19:56:22 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:56:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
Message-ID: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>

My cousin keeps two cars at his summer home and they tend to sit outside for
weeks at a time over the winter.  He recently mentioned to me that he has to
call the AAA once or twice each winter to jump the batteries.  I'd like to
help him avoid that hassle.

The cars sit close to a barn, so it would be a simple matter to lengthen the
wires on a couple of trickle chargers so that the charger could sit in the
barn and the wires extend out to the cars.  However, he is not terribly handy
and I figure he would just jump them himself if we was inclined to put cable
clamps on a car battery.  One option I have considered is to permanently wire
a plug to the batteries and put the mate to that plug on the charger.
However, the other possibility is to buy a couple of solar trickle chargers.
HF has one on sale right now for just $9.99
(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44768).  I
am fairly certain the car gets enough sunlight in the winter, provided the
arrays were properly positioned.  I assume I'd have to rewire the cigarette
lighter to be independent of the ignition switch, but that shouldn't be a big
deal.  Do these things work?  Any other ideas?

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.  You IM, we
give.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Jan 17 21:09:42 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:09:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <529472.60098.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It sounds like you have the perfect application for
that gadget.  And the price is right.

I would just check the battery after a month or so, to
make sure that it is not being over-charged and losing
electrolyte.

Doug


> However, the other possibility is to buy a couple of
> solar trickle chargers.
> HF has one on sale right now for just $9.99
>
(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44768).

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Fri Jan 18 04:08:45 2008
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:08:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
References: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <003101c859c2$7e6bca60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us>

You think he'll actually do it?

Hearsay, but I've heard the harbor freight solar charger has a crude float 
circuit, so it won't overcharge.  Not that a tiny solar charger really has 
any chance of overcharging a battery anyhow.

If he's got electricity to the barn, you might want to consider this a/c 
powered float charger instead. 
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42292  At 
$4.99, it's even cheaper still.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stone" <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
To: "shop talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers


> My cousin keeps two cars at his summer home and they tend to sit outside 
> for
> weeks at a time over the winter.  He recently mentioned to me that he has 
> to
> call the AAA once or twice each winter to jump the batteries.  I'd like to
> help him avoid that hassle.
>
> The cars sit close to a barn, so it would be a simple matter to lengthen 
> the
> wires on a couple of trickle chargers so that the charger could sit in the
> barn and the wires extend out to the cars.  However, he is not terribly 
> handy
> and I figure he would just jump them himself if we was inclined to put 
> cable
> clamps on a car battery.  One option I have considered is to permanently 
> wire
> a plug to the batteries and put the mate to that plug on the charger.
> However, the other possibility is to buy a couple of solar trickle 
> chargers.
> HF has one on sale right now for just $9.99
> (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44768). 
> I
> am fairly certain the car gets enough sunlight in the winter, provided the
> arrays were properly positioned.  I assume I'd have to rewire the 
> cigarette
> lighter to be independent of the ignition switch, but that shouldn't be a 
> big
> deal.  Do these things work?  Any other ideas?

From battmain at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 18 05:52:35 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 04:52:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <23735.92087.qm@web57013.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'm using one of the solar chargers from HF. It was 
the large one for $40. It seems to work. I've put the 
voltmeter on it with a load and it ranges from 
12.6-13.0. I'm going to get another one for the truck 
which runs down the battery in about 8 days. It uses 
clamps though. I run the wire between the fender and 
the door, then lock the solar section inside the cabin.

I don't see why you'd go through the trouble of
modifying the charger. There are units that attach
one end to the bolts on the battery semi-permanently. 
The other side can be attached to the car somewhere and
then all he has to do is run an outdoor cord to
the car. Google on Battery Minder to see some of
the units. I've seen similar units in sears also. I
use the cheapo HF units, but I do not leave them plugged
in permanently. They also don't last in my experience.
I have two sitting waiting to be taken apart. If it's
just a transistor or regulator that's blown in the unit, 
I may just replace it, but I figure later on I can use 
the clamps for something else. At $4.99 each, the part
may cost more than a new unit.

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

--- Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> (snip)
> The cars sit close to a barn, so it would be a simple matter to lengthen the
> wires on a couple of trickle chargers so that the charger could sit in the
> barn and the wires extend out to the cars.  However, he is not terribly
> handy
> and I figure he would just jump them himself if we was inclined to put cable
> clamps on a car battery.  One option I have considered is to permanently
> wire
> a plug to the batteries and put the mate to that plug on the charger.
> However, the other possibility is to buy a couple of solar trickle chargers.
>


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Jan 18 06:57:26 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:57:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
References: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <008b01c859da$0ef13310$6e01a8c0@KARL>

I was talked out of the HF float chargers by other guys in the HF store both 
times I looked at them.  They both claimed that the HF units can eat your 
battery because the float circuit doesn't work.  A buddy had several and 
they all died before eating any of his batteries.

I eventually bought a Battery Minder off eBay, liked it so much I bought 
another one, and eventually bought their (way too expensive but approved by 
the major aircraft battery manufacturers) aircraft-adjusted model for the 
hangar.  They work beautifully, but like a Vector charger, they will NOT 
charge a completely dead battery.  The circuit requires some minimum voltage 
level on the battery before it starts charging.

Battery Minders also desulphate, which seems to have helped several of the 
batteries I've used them on, including a small battery, once dead and then 
it sat in the shop for many years uncharged.  Now it's fine.

Battery Minder also makes a solar unit.

Karl



> The cars sit close to a barn, so it would be a simple matter to lengthen 
> the
> wires on a couple of trickle chargers so that the charger could sit in the
> barn and the wires extend out to the cars.  However, he is not terribly 
> handy
> and I figure he would just jump them himself if we was inclined to put 
> cable
> clamps on a car battery.  One option I have considered is to permanently 
> wire
> a plug to the batteries and put the mate to that plug on the charger.
> However, the other possibility is to buy a couple of solar trickle 
> chargers.
> HF has one on sale right now for just $9.99
> (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44768). 
> I
> am fairly certain the car gets enough sunlight in the winter, provided the
> arrays were properly positioned.  I assume I'd have to rewire the 
> cigarette
> lighter to be independent of the ignition switch, but that shouldn't be a 
> big
> deal.  Do these things work?  Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan 18 07:31:00 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:31:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <003101c859c2$7e6bca60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <665788.64760.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have one of those.  They are OK, if a bit flimsy.

There is a nice Schumacher battery maintainer that is
often on sale at Wal-Mart.  It has a sturdy case and
wiring, and also does 6 and 12-volt batteries:

http://store.schumachermart.com/sem-1562a.html

Doug

--- Nolan <foxtrapper at aceweb.com> wrote:


> If he's got electricity to the barn, you might want
> to consider this a/c 
> powered float charger instead. 
>
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42292
>  At 
> $4.99, it's even cheaper still.

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Jan 18 07:38:26 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:38:26 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
Message-ID: <011820081438.17486.4790B9E20007D9500000444E22070210539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com>
> There is a nice Schumacher battery maintainer that is
> often on sale at Wal-Mart.  It has a sturdy case and
> wiring, and also does 6 and 12-volt batteries:
> 
> http://store.schumachermart.com/sem-1562a.html

Plus one on the Schumacher.  It seems to regularly sell at Wal-Mart for half the price on http://store.schumachermart.com.  I keep them on the full-size battery in the Triumph and on the lawn-tractor battery in the Miata.  No problems of any kind.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Jan 18 07:40:21 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:40:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <011820081438.17486.4790B9E20007D9500000444E22070210539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <872270.48998.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If there is no Wal-Mart near where you live, :-)
Amazon sells it for $20 or so.

Doug

> Plus one on the Schumacher.  It seems to regularly
> sell at Wal-Mart for half the price on
> http://store.schumachermart.com.  I keep them on the
> full-size battery in the Triumph and on the
> lawn-tractor battery in the Miata.  No problems of
> any kind.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 18 08:36:19 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:36:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <011820081438.17486.4790B9E20007D9500000444E22070210539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080118153620.EJEK4230.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>

> > http://store.schumachermart.com/sem-1562a.html
> 
> Plus one on the Schumacher.

Any comment on whether it actually takes the battery to full voltage and
then lets it float down ?

The ad copy sounds good, but the lack of technical specifications makes me
suspicious.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Jan 18 09:11:20 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:11:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <008b01c859da$0ef13310$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <20080118161120.FQCT4230.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>

> They both claimed 
> that the HF units can eat your battery because the float 
> circuit doesn't work.

As I see it, they didn't have a "float" circuit at all.  Just a constant
(regulated) voltage.

>  A buddy had several and they all died 
> before eating any of his batteries.

So did mine.  But likely that was because I didn't fully charge the battery
first.  They apparently have no current-limiting circuitry in them; only the
output resistance of the wall wart.  Faced with the load of a discharged
battery, it eventually overheats and burns out.  When I tried upgrading the
wall wart, the electronics box melted.

> Battery Minders also desulphate, which seems to have helped 
> several of the batteries I've used them on, including a small 
> battery, once dead and then it sat in the shop for many years 
> uncharged.  Now it's fine.

Interesting.  I've got a few of those myself.  You're talking about the
units from VDC Electronics, right ?
http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm

Randall

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Jan 18 09:24:13 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:24:13 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
References: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
	<008b01c859da$0ef13310$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638766@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

I've also got a couple of Battery MINDers and they work very well.  They are
similar to the Battery Tender Jr., but the Battery MINDer does the
desulphation thing.  It sees to greatly extend the life of the battery.

The Battery MINDer comes with a connector that can be permanently attached to
the battery.  It has a plug on the end that attaches to the charger.  The
connectors are the same as those used with the Battery Tender, and that allows
the 25 ft. extension cords that are made for the Tenders to work with the
MINDers.  It allows the charger to be plugged in, and the car/battery to be
places a distance away.


Tim Mullen

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Jan 18 09:29:55 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:29:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] trickle chargers
Message-ID: <E5D0FF703C274E47B6C27DCE6678D583@OwnerPC>

here's another vote for the Battery Minder.  I had a 5 year old Deka battery
that was weak... could never get it up to full charge.  Hooked up the Battery
Minder and after about 3 days it was back at peak... passed a load test fine.

Liked it so much I bought a second one for a backup battery I keep for jump
starting and such.  ASAIC ...If it saves one battery it's paid for itself.
I've tried a couple of types of H.F. chargers and never had any hold up more
than a month or two...  I cut the leads/clamps off them and threw the chargers
away..

john




Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale,
and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or
hanged."
                                                               --President
Abraham Lincoln "

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jan 18 09:57:18 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:57:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <20080118161120.FQCT4230.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <326375.56755.qm@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Will the Battery Minder work on a single 6V battery or do you need at least two hooked up in series?

Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:  > They both claimed 
> that the HF units can eat your battery because the float 
> circuit doesn't work.

As I see it, they didn't have a "float" circuit at all. Just a constant
(regulated) voltage.

> A buddy had several and they all died 
> before eating any of his batteries.

So did mine. But likely that was because I didn't fully charge the battery
first. They apparently have no current-limiting circuitry in them; only the
output resistance of the wall wart. Faced with the load of a discharged
battery, it eventually overheats and burns out. When I tried upgrading the
wall wart, the electronics box melted.

> Battery Minders also desulphate, which seems to have helped 
> several of the batteries I've used them on, including a small 
> battery, once dead and then it sat in the shop for many years 
> uncharged. Now it's fine.

Interesting. I've got a few of those myself. You're talking about the
units from VDC Electronics, right ?
http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm

Randall
You are subscribed as rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive



Frank V.
  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Jan 18 10:54:10 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:54:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
Message-ID: <200801181754.m0IHsAmu019210@moose.dimebank.com>

I've been very happy with my ACI SuperCharger. 
http://www.acichargers.com/ #1206CC. It actually seems to do
fine control of the voltage going ot the batter. I bought mine
from http://shop.store.yahoo.com/apexdistribution/otel.html
who seem to have the best prices.

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 18 17:37:40 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:37:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <872270.48998.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <011820081438.17486.4790B9E20007D9500000444E22070210539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<872270.48998.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W42EEEC09B76CDB8BF1080CE1430@phx.gbl>

> If there is no Wal-Mart near where you live, :-)> Amazon sells it for $20 or
so.> > Doug
There is a place that does not have a Wal-Mart? %^)
Maybe outside of the US.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA'63 TR3B TCF587LThat
ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!

From gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com  Fri Jan 18 18:34:12 2008
From: gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:34:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
References: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D20133289E@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>

Another option for batteries that run down due to constant drain from the
vehicle is to add a battery disconnect switch.  It can be a simple and
inexpensive switch that you add on the battery post or a more sophisticated
one like the ones made by Battery Brain. (www.batterybrain.com)

I use the remote control models of the Battery Brain on antique cars that are
not driven regularly.  It comes with a remote key fob with a single button to
wirelessly disconnect the battery or turn it back on.  This device has the
added benefit of foiling a thief.  On modern cars, a disadvantage of a
disconnecting the battery is the fact that you lose any settings that require
a constant voltage, such as clock settings and radio station presets.

Gil Fuqua
Nashville

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Fri Jan 18 20:09:29 2008
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:09:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638766@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
	<008b01c859da$0ef13310$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638766@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <20080119030929.GA45455@sackheads.org>

On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 10:24:13AM -0600, Mullen, Tim wrote:
> I've also got a couple of Battery MINDers and they work very well.  They are
> similar to the Battery Tender Jr., but the Battery MINDer does the
> desulphation thing.  It sees to greatly extend the life of the battery.
> 

I'm almost embarassed to admit I don't have a general-purpose charger
though getting one has been on my TODO list for a while now.  I've 
thought about getting one with a desulfator feature like a Battery 
MINDer (could be useful if I ever have to condition any of the UPS 
batteries I have around the house).

What features should one look for in a general-purpose charger?  

Jimmie

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 22:10:26 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:10:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <20080119030929.GA45455@sackheads.org>
References: <BAY126-W3457D72B653AEA507155F2CC420@phx.gbl>
	<008b01c859da$0ef13310$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638766@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<20080119030929.GA45455@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <ea2385360801182110j14133981pe3f72f7ad8c956cd@mail.gmail.com>

'BATTERY-TENDER" is the unit I use on an amazing number of batteries in lawn
equipment, race cars, trailers and 4 or 5 booster packs.  "Batteries Plus"
stocks them and they are even better than claimed  . . .Mine reserected a
Vector booster pack that I'd thrown away!
http://batterytender.com/

From tr6 at pipeline.com  Sat Jan 19 06:00:11 2008
From: tr6 at pipeline.com (Ronald Olds)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:00:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <665788.64760.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAGR0/UN+345Oi0ESU7rmM4wBAITr15KniR9MuVqf/6yjAv4AAAFImMEAABAAAAAdBrgQWcrrT71n9UhLUQBqAQAAAAA=@pipeline.com>

Do any of these trickle chargers work well with Optima batteries?  Is there
a way to revive an Optima battery?

Ron Olds

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tr6=pipeline.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Doug
Braun
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:31 AM
To: Shop-Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers

I have one of those.  They are OK, if a bit flimsy.

There is a nice Schumacher battery maintainer that is
often on sale at Wal-Mart.  It has a sturdy case and
wiring, and also does 6 and 12-volt batteries:

http://store.schumachermart.com/sem-1562a.html

Doug

From arvidj at visi.com  Sat Jan 19 07:33:38 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:33:38 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
References: <011820081438.17486.4790B9E20007D9500000444E22070210539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002901c85aa8$48b13e00$80a8a8c0@dellc84024>

> From: Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com>
>> There is a nice Schumacher battery maintainer that is
>> often on sale at Wal-Mart.  It has a sturdy case and
>> wiring, and also does 6 and 12-volt batteries:
>>
>> http://store.schumachermart.com/sem-1562a.html
>

And another plus one on the Schumacher chargers. I have two of the 1562a's 
for the motorcycles and three of 
http://store.schumachermart.com/se-1-12s.html permanently attached to two of 
the cars and the tractor. I did have to replace one that was several years 
old but other than that I've been very satisfied.

Arvid 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 19 12:00:09 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:00:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAGR0/UN+345Oi0ESU7rmM4wBAITr15KniR9MuVqf/6yjAv4AAAFImMEAABAAAAAdBrgQWcrrT71n9UhLUQBqAQAAAAA=@pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

> Do any of these trickle chargers work well with Optima 
> batteries?

I have no experience, but the BatteryMINDer website specifically mentions
the Optima.
http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm

But oddly enough, they also offer an Optima-specific model, so ???
http://www.vdcelectronics.com/Optima_batteryminder.htm

>  Is there a way to revive an Optima battery?

Depends a great deal on what is wrong with it, IMO.  If it's sulfated, then
maybe a desulfator would work.  But if, for example, it's been overcharged
enough to vent electrolyte, then no.

Randall

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Jan 19 16:00:16 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:00:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <47928100.3030807@enter.net>

It's not odd, Optima specifies special battery chargers for their batteries.

Would anyone hazard a guess on how a battery minder would work being 
cycled on and off every day? I have off-peak power discounts, so I try 
to have little or nothing running during the day. So if I got a battery 
minder for my lawn mower batteries, I'd put it on a timer to only work 
at night.

Jon

Randall wrote:

>>Do any of these trickle chargers work well with Optima 
>>batteries?
> 
> 
> I have no experience, but the BatteryMINDer website specifically mentions
> the Optima.
> http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm
> 
> But oddly enough, they also offer an Optima-specific model, so ???
> http://www.vdcelectronics.com/Optima_batteryminder.htm
> 
> 
>> Is there a way to revive an Optima battery?
> 
> 
> Depends a great deal on what is wrong with it, IMO.  If it's sulfated, then
> maybe a desulfator would work.  But if, for example, it's been overcharged
> enough to vent electrolyte, then no.

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Jan 19 16:23:56 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:23:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum (or Epoxy?)
In-Reply-To: <000201c85676$155d60f0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
References: <000201c85676$155d60f0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <4792868C.6050400@enter.net>

Awesome site! Thanks, Bob. The well nuts would make the steel plates 
stand off the aluminum, so they wont work, but on that site there was 
this page http://www.thread-rite.com/plastic/index.htm which is sure to 
have exactly what I need, once I take delivery and find out the hole 
size. Now I gotta go find my mastic.

Thanks again,
Jon

Bob Kegel wrote:

>>There are holes that are predrilled, but I think they are too 
>>large for rivets because they were designed for screws.
> 
> 
> Something like this: http://www.thread-rite.com/pop_nuts/well_nut_sleve.htm
> seems to address both  the oversize hole and galvanic action issues.
> 
> Bob Kegel
> Aberdeen, WA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as jdrush at enter.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Jan 19 16:24:37 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:24:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rivet Steel to Aluminum (or Epoxy?)
In-Reply-To: <000201c85676$155d60f0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
References: <000201c85676$155d60f0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <479286B5.3060302@enter.net>

Awesome site! Thanks, Bob. The well nuts would make the steel plates
stand off the aluminum, so they wont work, but on that site there was
this page http://www.thread-rite.com/plastic/index.htm which is sure to
have exactly what I need, once I take delivery and find out the hole
size. Now I gotta go find my mastic.

Thanks again,
Jon

Bob Kegel wrote:

>>There are holes that are predrilled, but I think they are too 
>>large for rivets because they were designed for screws.
> 
> 
> Something like this: http://www.thread-rite.com/pop_nuts/well_nut_sleve.htm
> seems to address both  the oversize hole and galvanic action issues.
> 
> Bob Kegel
> Aberdeen, WA

From chad at linuxeg.com  Sat Jan 19 17:02:39 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:02:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <47928F9F.40107@linuxeg.com>

Don't know if this is the correct thing to do but I have a
Schumacher Charger/Maintainer on a Optima Blue Top
for around 2 years and it still passes a load test - using
a Harbor Freight 500A tester. The tester pulls 450 Amps
(1/2 CCA) for 15 seconds with the voltage staying above
10 volts - during the test voltage drops to around 11.3V
and the tester gets HOT! Remove the load and the voltage
raises to 12.9 - this is without the Maintainer/Chager connected.
chad

Randall wrote:

>>Do any of these trickle chargers work well with Optima 
>>batteries?
>>    
>>
>
>I have no experience, but the BatteryMINDer website specifically mentions
>the Optima.
>http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm
>
>But oddly enough, they also offer an Optima-specific model, so ???
>http://www.vdcelectronics.com/Optima_batteryminder.htm
>
>  
>
>> Is there a way to revive an Optima battery?
>>    
>>
>
>Depends a great deal on what is wrong with it, IMO.  If it's sulfated, then
>maybe a desulfator would work.  But if, for example, it's been overcharged
>enough to vent electrolyte, then no.
>
>Randall
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From chad at linuxeg.com  Sat Jan 19 17:09:49 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:09:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <47928F9F.40107@linuxeg.com>
References: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
	<47928F9F.40107@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <4792914D.1070800@linuxeg.com>

I forgot to mention, I did a test at 300A just prior
to the 450A test - looked up the test procedure
and found 1/2 and not 1/3 CCA is the correct
test load.
chad

Chadwick E. Labno wrote:

>Don't know if this is the correct thing to do but I have a
>Schumacher Charger/Maintainer on a Optima Blue Top
>for around 2 years and it still passes a load test - using
>a Harbor Freight 500A tester. The tester pulls 450 Amps
>(1/2 CCA) for 15 seconds with the voltage staying above
>10 volts - during the test voltage drops to around 11.3V
>and the tester gets HOT! Remove the load and the voltage
>raises to 12.9 - this is without the Maintainer/Chager connected.
>chad
>
>Randall wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>Do any of these trickle chargers work well with Optima 
>>>batteries?
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>I have no experience, but the BatteryMINDer website specifically mentions
>>the Optima.
>>http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12117.htm
>>
>>But oddly enough, they also offer an Optima-specific model, so ???
>>http://www.vdcelectronics.com/Optima_batteryminder.htm
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Is there a way to revive an Optima battery?
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Depends a great deal on what is wrong with it, IMO.  If it's sulfated, then
>>maybe a desulfator would work.  But if, for example, it's been overcharged
>>enough to vent electrolyte, then no.
>>
>>Randall
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
>>
>>Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>>http://www.team.net/archive
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Jan 19 18:13:15 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:13:15 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <47928100.3030807@enter.net>
Message-ID: <20080120011314.OHAS24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

> It's not odd, Optima specifies special battery chargers for 
> their batteries.

So, does that mean the standard Battery MINDer meets the Optima
specifications or not ?  If it does, why offer a different unit ?  If it
doesn't, why advertise that it does ?

> Would anyone hazard a guess on how a battery minder would
> work being cycled on and off every day?

I'm guessing it would be a little harder on the battery, because the minder
is going to bring it back up to peak voltage every time you turn it on,
rather than waiting until it self-discharges enough to need it (which I
think normally only happens every few months or so).  But clearly it's no
worse than a regulated trickle charger (like the HF thing), so maybe it
wouldn't make much difference.

Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Jan 20 09:04:33 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:04:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <20080120011314.OHAS24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <47928100.3030807@enter.net>
	<20080120011314.OHAS24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <BAY126-W72AD8533B173CFD56547CCC3C0@phx.gbl>

This has been a really interesting discussion; my thanks to everyone who
responded.  Some of the advice is not relevant to my cousin's situation (but
useful for me), since this is a guy who calls an electrician to replace a bad
light switch.  It has to be very simple for him.  I also want to be sure I do
no harm.  It needs to be a fairly bullet-proof solution and the cars have to
be able to sit unattended for long periods of time.  While I doubt the HF
solar charger has enough juice to damage the batteries, I don't want to take
the chance with an unregulated power source.

>From all that I've heard here, Battery Minders - with the extra length
permanently mounted cables - sound like the best solution for him.  He is very
generous sharing the home, so I'll plan on bringing a couple of them with me
next time I visit.

Thanks again.

Jim



_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your
"fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Jan 20 09:37:24 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <47928100.3030807@enter.net>
References: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
	<47928100.3030807@enter.net>
Message-ID: <479378C4.7090608@xxiii.com>

Rush wrote:
> Would anyone hazard a guess on how a battery minder would work being 
> cycled on and off every day? I have off-peak power discounts, so I try 
> to have little or nothing running during the day. So if I got a battery 
> minder for my lawn mower batteries, I'd put it on a timer to only work 
> at night.

Wow, my first thought was "why bother".  The thing can't *possibly* use 
enough power to even worry about.  A large discount taken off a couple 
pennies is still a inconsequential amount.  Probably better to spend 
your effort looking for a small gain in HVAC efficiency, for example.

Then I did some math.  Damn -- even if it averages a mere 20W 
continuous, that's 175 KWHr/year or 14.6/month;  which would run me 
$14.00/yr $1.17/mo.  Hmm, apparently the little crap is worthy of more 
attention than I thought.

   -Wayne

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 20 09:54:38 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:54:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <479378C4.7090608@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <566345.75296.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just checked my Schumacher Battery Companion (which
has been connected to a 6-bolt battery for several
days) to a watt-meter, and it measured ZERO watts.  

It's probably safe to say it uses one watt or less. 
That's totally trivial from a cost perspective. 
Probably similar to what a timer would use by itself.

If a charger kept using 20 watts for days at a time,
then the battery it is trying to charge is clearly
messed up.

My candidate for the most pointless waste of
electricity is my Verizon Fios Cable-TV box.  It uses
a constant 30 watts whether it is turned on or off.

Doug


> Then I did some math.  Damn -- even if it averages a
> mere 20W 
> continuous, that's 175 KWHr/year or 14.6/month; 
> which would run me 
> $14.00/yr $1.17/mo.  Hmm, apparently the little crap
> is worthy of more 
> attention than I thought.
> 
>    -Wayne

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 20 10:08:34 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:08:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <566345.75296.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080120170833.ZFUQ14013.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> I just checked my Schumacher Battery Companion (which has 
> been connected to a 6-bolt battery for several
> days) to a watt-meter, and it measured ZERO watts.  

So neither the box nor the battery feel the least bit warm ?

> My candidate for the most pointless waste of electricity is 
> my Verizon Fios Cable-TV box.  It uses a constant 30 watts 
> whether it is turned on or off.

Don't have a watt-meter, but my cable box also sucks power all the time (as
shown by the box staying quite warm even when not in use).  I picked up a
cord with a switch and now I kill power to the box when I'm not using it.

Randall

From rkg at teleport.com  Sun Jan 20 10:21:06 2008
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:21:06 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <566345.75296.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <566345.75296.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47938302.8020807@teleport.com>

Doug ,
>
> My candidate for the most pointless waste of
> electricity is my Verizon Fios Cable-TV box.  It uses
> a constant 30 watts whether it is turned on or off.
>   
And Verizon charges you for the privilege of burning the power :-)

rkg
(Richard George)
> Doug
>
>
>   
>> Then I did some math.  Damn -- even if it averages a
>> mere 20W 
>> continuous, that's 175 KWHr/year or 14.6/month; 
>> which would run me 
>> $14.00/yr $1.17/mo.  Hmm, apparently the little crap
>> is worthy of more 
>> attention than I thought.
>>
>>    -Wayne
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as rkg at teleport.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pmthicke at centurytel.net  Sun Jan 20 10:33:16 2008
From: pmthicke at centurytel.net (Paul and Mary Thicke)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:33:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <479378C4.7090608@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c85b8a$8b4fb3d0$6401a8c0@luap>

I also have the peak - off peak rates.  Twelve overnight hours a day at
4 cents a kw and 12 hours at 16-17 cents a kw.  So you really look at
keeping everything off that you can during the peak time.

Paul

  
> Would anyone hazard a guess on how a battery minder would work being
> cycled on and off every day? I have off-peak power discounts, so I try

> to have little or nothing running during the day. So if I got a
battery 
> minder for my lawn mower batteries, I'd put it on a timer to only work

> at night.

Wow, my first thought was "why bother".  The thing can't *possibly* use 
enough power to even worry about.  A large discount taken off a couple 
pennies is still a inconsequential amount.  Probably better to spend 
your effort looking for a small gain in HVAC efficiency, for example.

Then I did some math.  Damn -- even if it averages a mere 20W 
continuous, that's 175 KWHr/year or 14.6/month;  which would run me 
$14.00/yr $1.17/mo.  Hmm, apparently the little crap is worthy of more 
attention than I thought.

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Sun Jan 20 10:59:01 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:59:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs...Energy savings
 at home
In-Reply-To: <003b01c85b8a$8b4fb3d0$6401a8c0@luap>
References: <479378C4.7090608@xxiii.com> <003b01c85b8a$8b4fb3d0$6401a8c0@luap>
Message-ID: <016101c85b8e$242a3a50$6c7eaef0$@mele@usermail.com>

So...next time a house wiring project comes up. Split the top and bottom
duplexes and have all of the top ones only come on at off-peak time...

But on another energy-saving thought in new construction...
Be sure to look into Insulated Concrete Forms or similar (I think ECHO or
ECKO is a competitor) for new construction.  Initially, they rec'd using a
50% reduction in calculating HVAC design requirements...now 60-70%.
An efficient cool/heat house is a win-win in every direction; the ICF costs
about 11% more FOR THE FRAMING vs stick-frame with 2x4 on my shop and house.
(Any GC's out there who can tell us what the framing cost is rel to total
cost?)....payback is under 5 years for the examples I calculated with older
numbers (2004).  
"on a sinking ship, fix the biggest hole first"

PM



<<I also have the peak - off peak rates.  Twelve overnight hours a day at
4 cents a kw and 12 hours at 16-17 cents a kw.  So you really look at
keeping everything off that you can during the peak time.

Paul>>

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 20 18:23:02 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:23:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <20080120170833.ZFUQ14013.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <566345.75296.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20080120170833.ZFUQ14013.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W40454C2A128721B709EB039A3D0@phx.gbl>

Makes me wonder what kind of power my DirecTV Tivo DVR uses as well. Anyone
know?

I'll have Verizon FiOS HD TV in a couple weeks myself...

The only downside to switching off a DVR when you're not watching TV is that
any shows
you have set to record during this time will not record.  I still think it's
ridiculous
that a DVR in this day and age, needs to use the same amount of power to
"wait" to record
as it does to actually record.  Unless that hard-drive is spinning even in
"standby" mode,
which is again ridiculous in terms of hard-drive life expectancy.

-PJ

> My candidate for the most pointless waste of electricity is
> my Verizon Fios Cable-TV box.  It uses a constant 30 watts
> whether it is turned on or off.

Don't have a watt-meter, but my cable box also sucks power all the time (as
shown by the box staying quite warm even when not in use).  I picked up a
cord with a switch and now I kill power to the box when I'm not using it.

Randall


_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your
"fix".

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Sun Jan 20 21:26:46 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:26:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Solder
Message-ID: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

 At  swap meets and trade days I have seen guys selling a aluminum solder
which comes in a rod form and is applied using a regular propane torch.  I
bought some years ago and remember it working fairly well.
For my current project I need some as I don't want to heat the aluminum up
any more than needed. I checked at my local old fashion, has almost
everything hardware store.
The owner says that he too has bought some from  a vendor at a  swap meet
and after trying it attempted to find a supplier to no avail.
 Anyone got a suggestion as to where I can find this stuff?
Also, isn't it strange that a product that has been around so long still
doesn't have a normal retail outlet?

Bob Nogueira

PS :  The project is a aluminum door for a Morgan and I need to solder the
corner edge about 1 inch long, any suggestions if I can't find the Swap Meet
Aluminum solder?

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Jan 20 21:26:07 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:26:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 55k btu radiant kerosene heater?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801202322420.12825@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

So my forced air kerosene heater has finally decided to stop working... 
For a couple years now I've kept the cover loose so that I could slide it 
out of the way and spin the fan by hand to "loosen it up" when it wouldn't 
start.  Now I can still do that, but the fan never seems to really spin up 
to full speed and eventually kicks the breaker on the unit (Reddy heater, 
55k btu, if you have ideas on how to make it work.  I can see the spark, 
so I know its not that).

Anyway, I was looking at other options and ran across this one at lowes:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=239878-57645-PT55SS&lpage=none

Anyone know anything about this type of heater?  The btu output is much 
higher than other radiant kerosene heaters I've seen and the promise of 
less noise would be welcome...

Googling ProTemp Sun-Stream got me nowwhere.

Thanks!

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 20 21:34:33 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:34:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Solder
In-Reply-To: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
References: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801202034h2bd7d812tbfff6ed3a5eb1e0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 20, 2008 11:26 PM, Bob Nogueira <nogera at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>  At  swap meets and trade days I have seen guys selling a aluminum solder
> which comes in a rod form and is applied using a regular propane torch.  I
> bought some years ago and remember it working fairly well.
> For my current project I need some as I don't want to heat the aluminum up
> any more than needed. I checked at my local old fashion, has almost
> everything hardware store.
> The owner says that he too has bought some from  a vendor at a  swap meet
> and after trying it attempted to find a supplier to no avail.
>  Anyone got a suggestion as to where I can find this stuff?
> Also, isn't it strange that a product that has been around so long still
> doesn't have a normal retail outlet?
>

Luma-weld is the brand I'm familiar with.  It's mostly zinc, I think.
It's very low strength, very low ductility.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Sun Jan 20 22:07:50 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:07:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Solder
References: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
	<2400a5d40801202034h2bd7d812tbfff6ed3a5eb1e0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c85beb$91fb8040$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

http://www.aluminumrepair.com

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: <nogera at worldnet.att.net>
Cc: "Shop Talk" <>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Solder


| On Jan 20, 2008 11:26 PM, Bob Nogueira <nogera at worldnet.att.net> 
wrote:
| >  At  swap meets and trade days I have seen guys selling a aluminum 
solder
| > which comes in a rod form and is applied using a regular propane 
torch.  I
| > bought some years ago and remember it working fairly well.
| > For my current project I need some as I don't want to heat the 
aluminum up
| > any more than needed. I checked at my local old fashion, has almost
| > everything hardware store.
| > The owner says that he too has bought some from  a vendor at a  swap 
meet
| > and after trying it attempted to find a supplier to no avail.
| >  Anyone got a suggestion as to where I can find this stuff?
| > Also, isn't it strange that a product that has been around so long 
still
| > doesn't have a normal retail outlet?
| >
|
| Luma-weld is the brand I'm familiar with.  It's mostly zinc, I think.
| It's very low strength, very low ductility.
snip 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 20 22:48:20 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:48:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <20080120170833.ZFUQ14013.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <320595.31970.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It's not at all warm.  It must have a well-made
efficient transformer in it.  And the little green
light is glowing, so it's getting power.
When  I connected it to the battery, the orange light
glowed for several hours, and the box was a bit warm.

Doug

--- Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> > I just checked my Schumacher Battery Companion
> (which has 
> > been connected to a 6-bolt battery for several
> > days) to a watt-meter, and it measured ZERO watts.
>  
> 
> So neither the box nor the battery feel the least
> bit warm ?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 20 22:51:47 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:51:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <47938302.8020807@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <735247.97641.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You're probably thinking of the Fios ONT (optical
network terminal) box.  That is a constant power
drain, too, but at least it services the telephone and
the internet as well as the TV.

BTW, I am very pleased with the HD picture quality
from Verizon's service.  I got us a good 50" DLP TV
recently, and our house is now 100% CRT-free.

Doug

--- Richard George <rkg at teleport.com> wrote:

> Doug ,
> >
> > My candidate for the most pointless waste of
> > electricity is my Verizon Fios Cable-TV box.  It
> uses
> > a constant 30 watts whether it is turned on or
> off.
> >   
> And Verizon charges you for the privilege of burning
> the power :-)
> 
> rkg
> (Richard George)
> > Doug

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Jan 21 08:24:31 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:24:31 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Solder
References: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <007401c85c41$b94b2b40$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Horrible Freight has it.

Don't use it anywhere you will see it unless you're prepared for a tough 
smoothing job.  It's much harder than aluminum and to smooth it into an 
aluminum surface is really tough.

Karl



> Anyone got a suggestion as to where I can find this stuff?
> Also, isn't it strange that a product that has been around so long still
> doesn't have a normal retail outlet?

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Jan 21 08:29:55 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:29:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 55k btu radiant kerosene heater?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801202322420.12825@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <007d01c85c42$7a28cbb0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

If you want to fix your existing heater, Reddy-Heater is part of Desa - in 
Kentucky as I recall - and should have parts.  They're set up for DIY'ers - 
decent tech support is available by phone and they'll mail parts right out.

Karl


> So my forced air kerosene heater has finally decided to stop working...
> For a couple years now I've kept the cover loose so that I could slide it
> out of the way and spin the fan by hand to "loosen it up" when it wouldn't
> start.  Now I can still do that, but the fan never seems to really spin up
> to full speed and eventually kicks the breaker on the unit (Reddy heater,
> 55k btu, if you have ideas on how to make it work.  I can see the spark,
> so I know its not that).
>
> Anyway, I was looking at other options and ran across this one at lowes:
> http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=239878-57645-PT55SS&lpage=none
>
> Anyone know anything about this type of heater?  The btu output is much
> higher than other radiant kerosene heaters I've seen and the promise of
> less noise would be welcome...
>
> Googling ProTemp Sun-Stream got me nowwhere.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark

From mpless at servo.ucsd.edu  Mon Jan 21 08:50:45 2008
From: mpless at servo.ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:50:45 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W40454C2A128721B709EB039A3D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10801210738340.522671-100000@servo.ucsd.edu>

I don't know about a DirecTV DVR , but my original "14 hour" Tivo is always 
"on" because it's always recording one of the following three, 24/7: 

   1) something that I've told it to record 
   2) a Tivo suggestion (something it thinks I might want to watch)
   3) a constant, sliding 30 minute window (which is how it allows
      one to "pause" live TV)

Unless I put it in standby it's always on and the hard drive is always 
spinning. As computers go it's pretty low powered; I know that the cooling 
fan seldom, if ever, comes on. I just  had it apart yesterday to add a
network card and I was amazed at how clean it was inside, considering that
it hasn't been opened in years. Everytime I look inside my desktop computer 
there's a new shag carpet growing in there that needs to get blasted out.
I think my Tivo's CPU is somewhere between a 60-90MHz PowerPC.

--Marcus



On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>
> Makes me wonder what kind of power my DirecTV Tivo DVR uses as well. Anyone
> know?
> 
> I'll have Verizon FiOS HD TV in a couple weeks myself...
> 
> The only downside to switching off a DVR when you're not watching TV is that
> any shows
> you have set to record during this time will not record.  I still think it's
> ridiculous
> that a DVR in this day and age, needs to use the same amount of power to
> "wait" to record
> as it does to actually record.  Unless that hard-drive is spinning even in
> "standby" mode,
> which is again ridiculous in terms of hard-drive life expectancy.
> 
> -PJ

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 21 09:17:33 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:17:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10801210738340.522671-100000@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <BAY108-W40454C2A128721B709EB039A3D0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.SGI.4.10.10801210738340.522671-100000@servo.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W2729346179787CB99169739A3D0@phx.gbl>

I put ours in Standby whenever we're not using it.  The HDD spins down, and
whatever is being recorded constantly as yo put it, will stop recording.

We've had the Tivo for over 3 years now, but now it periodically reboots
itself while watching shows, which makes me think one day there will be no TV
and we'll have to act quick to replace it with the same thing.

The deals on Verizon's TV service and bundling made it too hard to pass up.
With a new season of 'Lost' coming, I'm excited now to have HD in the house.

PJ

> Unless I put it in standby it's always on and the hard drive is always
> spinning. As computers go it's pretty low powered; I know that the cooling
> fan seldom, if ever, comes on. I just had it apart yesterday to add a
> network card and I was amazed at how clean it was inside, considering that
> it hasn't been opened in years. Everytime I look inside my desktop computer
> there's a new shag carpet growing in there that needs to get blasted out.
> I think my Tivo's CPU is somewhere between a 60-90MHz PowerPC.
>
> --Marcus
>
>
>
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>>
>> Makes me wonder what kind of power my DirecTV Tivo DVR uses as well.
Anyone
>> know?
>>
>> I'll have Verizon FiOS HD TV in a couple weeks myself...
>>
>> The only downside to switching off a DVR when you're not watching TV is
that
>> any shows
>> you have set to record during this time will not record. I still think
it's
>> ridiculous
>> that a DVR in this day and age, needs to use the same amount of power to
>> "wait" to record
>> as it does to actually record. Unless that hard-drive is spinning even in
>> "standby" mode,
>> which is again ridiculous in terms of hard-drive life expectancy.
>>
>> -PJ

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your
"fix".

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Jan 21 11:09:13 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:09:13 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Solder
In-Reply-To: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
References: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <4794DFC9.5050108@hornesystemstx.com>

I bought some a year ago on eBay. It was a 1' stick. I just looked on 
ebay under "aluminum solder" and found some aluminum solder paste 
(#250206868217).

Peace,
Pat

	

Thusly spake Bob Nogueira:
>  At  swap meets and trade days I have seen guys selling a aluminum solder
> which comes in a rod form and is applied using a regular propane torch.  I
> bought some years ago and remember it working fairly well.
> For my current project I need some as I don't want to heat the aluminum up
> any more than needed. I checked at my local old fashion, has almost
> everything hardware store.
> The owner says that he too has bought some from  a vendor at a  swap meet
> and after trying it attempted to find a supplier to no avail.
>  Anyone got a suggestion as to where I can find this stuff?
> Also, isn't it strange that a product that has been around so long still
> doesn't have a normal retail outlet?
>
> Bob Nogueira
>
> PS :  The project is a aluminum door for a Morgan and I need to solder the
> corner edge about 1 inch long, any suggestions if I can't find the Swap Meet
> Aluminum solder?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From mikey at b2systems.com  Mon Jan 21 12:22:00 2008
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:22:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Aluminum Solder
In-Reply-To: <00be01c85beb$91fb8040$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
References: <004701c85be5$e4d96530$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
	<2400a5d40801202034h2bd7d812tbfff6ed3a5eb1e0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<00be01c85beb$91fb8040$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
Message-ID: <4794F0D8.4000502@b2systems.com>

  I know you said you want to keep the heat to a minimum which with the 
wood framing behind the alu skin, i can understand.  But if you are 
repairing a crack or something like that, I would really consider going 
with TIG and getting it done right.

  Only issue with welding in your case is the wood behind it and of 
course the fact that you may be trying to save paint and damage as 
little as possible but a good TIG welder can help with all that.  I 
charcoaled some wood when TIGing the rear of my car but nothing too bad, 
TIG really does concentrate the heat into a small area.

  Having said all that, I have used AlumaWeld and it sure was easy to 
use, the website below claims it is even stronger than TIG but that is 
not the reputation it has,  the AlumaWeld stuff is very weak, it will 
work for you but it has very little to no strength on stressed parts.

    Mike

Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
> http://www.aluminumrepair.com
>
> Steve Hammatt
> Mount Vernon WA USA

From shiples at comcast.net  Mon Jan 21 15:25:56 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:25:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tivo Talk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10801210738340.522671-100000@servo.ucsd.edu>
References: <BAY108-W40454C2A128721B709EB039A3D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080121134514.03101360@mail.comcast.net>

At 07:50 AM 1/21/2008 -0800, Marcus Pless wrote:
>  I just  had it apart yesterday to add a
>network card and I was amazed at how clean it was inside, considering that
>it hasn't been opened in years.

I haven't paid much attention to my Tivo but I did upgrade to a Series2 
last year
since they allowed me to transfer my lifetime subscription.  So now I have a
Philips ptv300 that is sitting idle.

I knew these things were upgradable but I didn't realize they were networkable.
Accessing Rhapsody from the Tivo has been a pleasant surprise.

I've always wanted a computer and TV for the shop and the Tivo would make
it just that much cooler.  I did a cursory Google and found a kit.

Could you provide a few more details, links, and/or recommendations?

Steve Shipley

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Jan 21 15:29:28 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:29:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <20080120011314.OHAS24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <47928100.3030807@enter.net>
	<20080120011314.OHAS24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797D4284B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randall wrote:
>
> So, does that mean the standard Battery MINDer meets
> the Optima specifications or not ?  If it does, why
> offer a different unit ?  If it doesn't, why advertise
> that it does ?

Yes and no...

>From some research I did a while back:

Supposedly the Optima "wants" to be charged at a slightly higher voltage
than regular batteries.  The Battery MINDer (or Tender Jr.) will charge
the battery, but not optimally.  The special Battery MINDER for Optimas
has the voltage "tweaked" so that it better charges the Optimas - but
don't use that charger for other batteries.

So, yes, you can charge up your Optima with a regular Battery MINDer,
but for the long term (and to prolong the life of the Optima), you would
be better off with the special charger.  That's why they say both
things, and offer both versions.

Of course I could be completely wrong and my memory could be totally out
of whack too.

Tim Mullen

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 15:45:40 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:45:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
Message-ID: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>

I returned the little 33 gallon, oil-less, cheapie compressor that I had on
semi-permanent loan from a friend this past weekend.  Now I need a more
permanent solution for my garage.

I will admit right off the bat that I don't really need very much air, and
that the 33-gallon 110V compressor got the job done.  I run the usual
smattering of air tools (impact, cutoff, ratchet, etc.) as well as blow up
tires and such.  I don't like oil-less, because it was noisy, and I don't
like the 33 gallon part because it was noisy pretty frequently.  I'd also
like to know that if I decide to buy a blast cabinet or something for a
project that I can run it.  I'd hate to spend the money and not have the
capacity I need later.

So I'm looking at compressors and narrowing my requirements.  It has to be
oil lubricated, I like the 60 gallon vertical tanks because they're big
enough to hold quite a bit of air, but don't take up a huge amount of my
precious floor space, and I am leaning towards a two-stage pump because that
gets you into the 175 PSI range (effectively increasing your air storage by
1/3).

Right now I'm looking really hard at these three:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00919261000P?vName=Tools&cName=Compressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators


Lots of air, but only 135 PSI because it's single stage.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00918298000P?vName=Tools&cName=Compressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators


Now we're talking...  175 PSI and still plenty of air for me.  I like the
'industrial' aspect of this one.  The long service life they quote is
attractive.  More expensive though.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00916781000P?vName=Tools&cName=Compressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators


Now you throw this guy in there.  It looks like everything the 2-stage IR is
but better, and much cheaper to boot.  I think that I'd prefer a 60-gal
tank so that it would take a bit less space, but the extra capacity doesn't
hurt either.  I lose the IR name, and I've heard that they make a quality
product.  Does anybody know anything about the quality of the larger Sears
compressors?

Right now Sears is doing 15% off on top of the sale prices on those
compressors, so I could potentially get a pretty good deal if I put in
an order tonight.

I'm ready to throw myself at the mercy of shop-talk for advice...

From 57healey at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 15:52:41 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:52:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797D4284B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <47928100.3030807@enter.net>
	<20080120011314.OHAS24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797D4284B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0801211452h6c4d9715ta434458978c71881@mail.gmail.com>

But is it OK to charge an Optima using a regular charger as long as I
disconnect it after it as charge?

Patton

On Jan 21, 2008 4:29 PM, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:

> Randall wrote:
> >
> > So, does that mean the standard Battery MINDer meets
> > the Optima specifications or not ?  If it does, why
> > offer a different unit ?  If it doesn't, why advertise
> > that it does ?
>
> --
> Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
> 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Jan 21 16:41:40 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:41:40 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>

I have been using the Westel Versalink router that came with my DSL service 
from Verizon.  I use it wired to my desktop and wireless to the 
laptop.  The wireless range really sucks.  Part of it is probably because 
my laptop doesn't have built in WiFi and I'm using a USB dongle to connect 
to the WiFi.  However, there are probably lots better routers out there, 
too.  Anyone got any recommendations, preferably one that can be bought 
locally, for example, at Fry's?

Thanks.
Dave C

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 16:43:36 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:43:36 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Treadmill tripping gfci
Message-ID: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>

Howdy,

 

I have a treadmill in my shop and have been experiencing difficulties with
it tripping the gfci, or tripping the little internal breaker on the
treadmill itself. Usually happens at about the 20 minute mark into a 30
minute walk. Seems intermittent, some days it works fine other days not so
much. Tends to trip more on me (heavier) than my son, obviously I'm putting
a bigger load on it. Also trips more when it is cold out. It was 30 degrees
in the shop today and the treadmill only made it 15 minutes into the
session.

 

When I wired the shop I wired each circuit with a gfci in it, usually at the
beginning of the circuit so that the downstream outlets would be protected
as well. The circuits are 20 amps, with appropriate wire, breaker, and 20amp
gfci outlets, all to code, passed inspection etc. There are no other devices
operating on the circuit when the treadmill is going.

 

Are treadmills usually pretty hard on a circuit? I've tried different gfci
outlets and it still trips them. Should I pull the closest gfci outlet to
the panel and replace it with a non gfci 20 amp outlet and see if still
trips the breaker on the treadmill?

 

Thanks

Wayne

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Jan 21 16:51:38 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:51:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.co
  m>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121154616.02876e90@incoming.verizon.net>

At 05:45 PM  1/21/2008  -0500, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
>So I'm looking at compressors and narrowing my requirements.  It has to be
>oil lubricated, I like the 60 gallon vertical tanks because they're big
>enough to hold quite a bit of air, but don't take up a huge amount of my
>precious floor space, and I am leaning towards a two-stage pump because that
>gets you into the 175 PSI range (effectively increasing your air storage by
>1/3).

My requirements were similar to yours, only I already have a blast 
cabinet.  I thought about a 2 stage unit, but wanted to keep the purchase 
cost under $1000.  I ended up with a 60 gallon two cylinder CH unit from 
Grizzly:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/60-Gallon-Air-Compressor/H7359

I'm pretty happy with it; it keeps up with my blast cabinet just fine and 
seems very solid and reliable.  It's not horribly noisy, but it is still an 
air compressor.  I plan to eventually move it from the shop to the pump 
shed outside.

DC

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Jan 21 17:24:49 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:24:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <110566.57376.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That last one likes like a good deal.  You definitely
want a 2-stage pump, preferably with cast iron
cylinders.

It's probably made in China, but the second one may
be, too.  In any case, it would take a hobbyist years
and years to wear out that style of 2-stage
compressor.

You might see what repair parts Sears carries for the
third one.  For example:  the reed valves, the input
air filter, and the check valve between the pump and
the tank.  (But probably the same parts are used for
several brands of compressors).

You might also see what your local Sam's Club carries.

Doug

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Jan 21 17:36:01 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:36:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121154616.02876e90@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <008d01c85c8e$c3690410$80a8a8c0@dellc84024>

> It's not horribly noisy, but it is still an
> air compressor.

To cut down on the noise investigate a muffler for the intake air. I have 
one on mine and it makes a big difference.

Arvid 

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan 21 18:27:35 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:27:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <0D4AC543-BA33-4D43-8D0C-4E30922088A0@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:41 PM, David C. wrote:

> I have been using the Westel Versalink router that came with my DSL  
> service
> from Verizon.  I use it wired to my desktop and wireless to the
> laptop.  The wireless range really sucks.  Part of it is probably  
> because
> my laptop doesn't have built in WiFi and I'm using a USB dongle to  
> connect
> to the WiFi.  However, there are probably lots better routers out  
> there,
> too.  Anyone got any recommendations, preferably one that can be  
> bought
> locally, for example, at Fry's?
>

The Linksys WRT54G has been a favorite amongst my geeky friends for  
years. I got mine at Staples for $35 or so. They price-matched an on- 
line flyer from somewhere.

I had the 'C' version which stands for compact. The range wasn't as  
good as the regular external antenna'd one despite what the reviews  
said.

jim

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan 21 18:29:30 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:29:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Treadmill tripping gfci
In-Reply-To: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <BEA1789E-D985-4AE3-8DE6-FB8F9BF90EC7@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:43 PM, cornerexit wrote:
>
>
> Are treadmills usually pretty hard on a circuit? I've tried  
> different gfci
> outlets and it still trips them. Should I pull the closest gfci  
> outlet to
> the panel and replace it with a non gfci 20 amp outlet and see if  
> still
> trips the breaker on the treadmill?
>

Are you sure it's a gfci and not afci? Treadmills are known to trip  
the arc-fault devices now mandatory in bedroom circuits.

jim

From bill at gingerich.us  Mon Jan 21 19:24:32 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:24:32 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <005401c85c9d$ecc2cf30$64dea8c0@shack2>

I'm using a Linksys WAP54G at work.  It has twin external antennas.  Covers
our 15000 sq. ft. call center just fine.

At home I have a Dlink DI-624.  It has a single external antenna, and seems
to cover my 2200 sq ft house pretty well.  

Not sure what either cost these days, but I'd buy either one again.

Bill G
OKC

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
David C.
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:42 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Wireless router (again)?

I have been using the Westel Versalink router that came with my DSL service 
from Verizon.  I use it wired to my desktop and wireless to the 
laptop.  The wireless range really sucks.  Part of it is probably because 
my laptop doesn't have built in WiFi and I'm using a USB dongle to connect 
to the WiFi.  However, there are probably lots better routers out there, 
too.  Anyone got any recommendations, preferably one that can be bought 
locally, for example, at Fry's?

Thanks.
Dave C

From koblinger at verizon.net  Mon Jan 21 19:24:09 2008
From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:24:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Verizon FIOS
Message-ID: <479553C9.3050604@verizon.net>

I currently have DirecTV with a TiVo and was just starting to look into 
upgrading to HD. My phone/DSL service is through Verizon and I just got 
a call telling me that their FIOS service is now available in my area. 
So, does anyone have FIOS and can they comment on it, good, bad or 
indifferent.

Thanks,
Kurt Oblinger
Redondo Beach, CA

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Jan 21 19:28:59 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:28:59 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <0D4AC543-BA33-4D43-8D0C-4E30922088A0@groupwbench.org>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<0D4AC543-BA33-4D43-8D0C-4E30922088A0@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <014001c85c9e$8c3411f0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

I'll second the Linksys WRT54G.  I have the std model and we get the top
rated speed or close just about anywhere in our, just under 3,000 sq.ft.,
home.  

Try changing the transmission channels, etc., and location before buying a
new router.  Location is important.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Franklin
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:28 PM
To: shop talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT: Wireless router (again)?

On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:41 PM, David C. wrote:

> I have been using the Westel Versalink router that came with my DSL 
> service from Verizon.  I use it wired to my desktop and wireless to 
> the laptop.  The wireless range really sucks.  Part of it is probably 
> because my laptop doesn't have built in WiFi and I'm using a USB 
> dongle to connect to the WiFi.  However, there are probably lots 
> better routers out there, too.  Anyone got any recommendations, 
> preferably one that can be bought locally, for example, at Fry's?
>

The Linksys WRT54G has been a favorite amongst my geeky friends for years. I
got mine at Staples for $35 or so. They price-matched an on- line flyer from
somewhere.

I had the 'C' version which stands for compact. The range wasn't as good as
the regular external antenna'd one despite what the reviews said.

jim
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Jan 21 19:35:38 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:35:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Verizon FIOS
In-Reply-To: <479553C9.3050604@verizon.net>
References: <479553C9.3050604@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BCF91B85-ED31-4EFE-8843-DC45F1105ED0@groupwbench.org>

On Jan 21, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Kurt Oblinger wrote:

> I currently have DirecTV with a TiVo and was just starting to look  
> into
> upgrading to HD. My phone/DSL service is through Verizon and I just  
> got
> a call telling me that their FIOS service is now available in my area.
> So, does anyone have FIOS and can they comment on it, good, bad or
> indifferent.

I just got FIOS after friends said it was fine. The $99/mo is about  
the same as I was paying for DSL + land line, plus I no longer need  
the rabbit ears on the TV. Downside is now I watch a lot more TV.

They will drop the $29 setup fee if you are adamant enough about not  
paying it. They charge me $4.50/mo to rent the non-HD box. I think HD  
was $9/mo. Might be able to get that erased to, I didn't bother.

Quality of phone & TV signals are very good, speed of FIOS is much  
faster than DSL using a DSL speed test site, but I don't do a lot of  
heavy downloads so I can't comment on real-world experience.

They installed it during a snowstorm which impressed me. I think they  
are all local contractors who only get paid per install. Took about 6  
hours.

jim

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 21 20:10:10 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:10:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>

I will also recommend the WRT54g, but I don't run the Linksys firmware, 3rd
party DD-WRT firmware for me.   He's my firewall and is pretty stable.  Nice
thing is you an boost the signal range (if you dare) as well as many other
cool things.

Also have a DLink Di-624 which I would not recommend (came with my Verizon DSL
a few years ago).  And a Belkin 54g with stock firmware (also upgradable with
DD-WRT firmware) that works well.

PJ

> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:41:40 -0800
> From: cavanadd at verizon.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Wireless router (again)?
>
> I have been using the Westel Versalink router that came with my DSL service
> from Verizon. I use it wired to my desktop and wireless to the
> laptop. The wireless range really sucks. Part of it is probably because
> my laptop doesn't have built in WiFi and I'm using a USB dongle to connect
> to the WiFi. However, there are probably lots better routers out there,
> too. Anyone got any recommendations, preferably one that can be bought
> locally, for example, at Fry's?

_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Jan 21 20:21:41 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:21:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c85ca5$e90ece40$bb2c6ac0$@mele@usermail.com>

I have a 10-year old Campbell Hausfeld:

HS2810 5HP 13.5 CFM at 90; 12.5 CFM at 175 230 V, 1 X 80 gal vertical

that's worked fine with the tools you've mentioned.  I've used synthetic oil
in it.  The plastic drain plug/ sight glass cracked...doesn't look like a
great design to start with, but otherwise has been good to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Paul Parkanzky
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:46 PM
To: shop-talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors

I returned the little 33 gallon, oil-less, cheapie compressor that I had on
semi-permanent loan from a friend this past weekend.  Now I need a more
permanent solution for my garage.

I will admit right off the bat that I don't really need very much air, and
that the 33-gallon 110V compressor got the job done.  I run the usual
smattering of air tools (impact, cutoff, ratchet, etc.) as well as blow up
tires and such.  I don't like oil-less, because it was noisy, and I don't
like the 33 gallon part because it was noisy pretty frequently.  I'd also
like to know that if I decide to buy a blast cabinet or something for a
project that I can run it.  I'd hate to spend the money and not have the
capacity I need later.

So I'm looking at compressors and narrowing my requirements.  It has to be
oil lubricated, I like the 60 gallon vertical tanks because they're big
enough to hold quite a bit of air, but don't take up a huge amount of my
precious floor space, and I am leaning towards a two-stage pump because that
gets you into the 175 PSI range (effectively increasing your air storage by
1/3).

Right now I'm looking really hard at these three:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00919261000P?vName=Tools&cName=Comp
ressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators


Lots of air, but only 135 PSI because it's single stage.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00918298000P?vName=Tools&cName=Comp
ressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators


Now we're talking...  175 PSI and still plenty of air for me.  I like the
'industrial' aspect of this one.  The long service life they quote is
attractive.  More expensive though.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00916781000P?vName=Tools&cName=Comp
ressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators


Now you throw this guy in there.  It looks like everything the 2-stage IR is
but better, and much cheaper to boot.  I think that I'd prefer a 60-gal
tank so that it would take a bit less space, but the extra capacity doesn't
hurt either.  I lose the IR name, and I've heard that they make a quality
product.  Does anybody know anything about the quality of the larger Sears
compressors?

Right now Sears is doing 15% off on top of the sale prices on those
compressors, so I could potentially get a pretty good deal if I put in
an order tonight.

I'm ready to throw myself at the mercy of shop-talk for advice...
You are subscribed as paul.mele at usermail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Jan 21 23:12:48 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:12:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f0801211452h6c4d9715ta434458978c71881@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080122061248.YTWW5487.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>

> But is it OK to charge an Optima using a regular charger as 
> long as I disconnect it after it as charge?

As I read the info at
http://tinyurl.com/339e3j
I believe the answer is "probably not".  Optima is very specific about using
only a "regulated" charger, which is not what I would call a "regular"
charger.  (Or maybe a better way to put that is that my "regular" charger
has no regulation.)

You could probably put most of a charge in with a regular charger, but you'd
need some way to accurately measure the peak voltage during charging.  Since
the charger output is not filtered,  the voltage will vary between battery
voltage and some peak value 120 times/second.  My voltmeter won't read those
peaks, but maybe yours will.  An oscilloscope would be the only other way,
IMO ... and even then, you'd have to (a) sit and watch it constantly, and
(b) not put in a full charge.

Randall

From rusd at sitestar.net  Tue Jan 22 01:00:25 2008
From: rusd at sitestar.net (Dave Russell)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:00:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <20080122061248.YTWW5487.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20080122061248.YTWW5487.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <4795A299.6050908@sitestar.net>

Hi Randall,

You could look at it this way. The Red Top AGM Optima has survived use 
in my later model car  for five years so far with zero problems. It's 
been fairly well discharged a couple of times. The 90 amp alternator 
that is set at 14.4 volts has always charged it with absolutely no 
operating problems. The alternator/regulator sometimes puts 80 plus 
amps, sometimes 10 amps, into the battery. What ever is needed to 
quickly charge the battery. Another Optima battery in my Ford truck 
works the same way. AGM batteries are not nearly as sensitive to 
charging conditions as the older gelled electrolyte cells were.

The only regulator is in the alternator which is set at a maximum of 
14.4 volts. I don't know what regulator is in my Toyota alternator 
except it has a maximum output of 14.4 volts & the charge rate tapers 
off as the battery comes up to full 14.4 volt charge.

I built an adjustable, settable max. output voltage regulator into my 
Sears bench charger 25 years ago. It's been used occasionally on the 
Optimas & many other batteries. When the battery comes up to the set 
voltage it switches off. If battery voltage drops a bit it switches back 
on. With the charger left connected, it seems to switch on every few 
days & charges a few milliamps for a short time.  Charge rate is 
proportional to how low the battery voltage is. As the battery voltage 
rises, the charge rate tapers off. Same as with the alternator.

 It isn't hard to build a simple adjustable output voltage 
limiter/regulator into any simple charger.  I found my circuit in an old 
RCA transistor manual. Remember those. Seems like it used a couple of 
TO3 transistors. I'll bet that there are chips now days that will do the 
same thing. I'll bet you can buy many similar chargers off the shelf. 
Maybe not "adjustable voltage limiting"  but likely acceptable fixed 
voltage limiting.

As you say, the charger has very high ripple, but when connected to the 
battery capacitance the ripple is much lower.Your meter won't read the 
120 Hertz ripple because the battery which acts like a large capacitor 
when connected to the charger will filter the ripple out.

I also have a different AGM battery & Lucas alternator in my 
Austin-Healey & everything works the same way.

Regards,
Dave Russell

Randall wrote:

>>But is it OK to charge an Optima using a regular charger as 
>>long as I disconnect it after it as charge?
>>    
>>
>
>As I read the info at
>http://tinyurl.com/339e3j
>I believe the answer is "probably not".  Optima is very specific about using
>only a "regulated" charger, which is not what I would call a "regular"
>charger.  (Or maybe a better way to put that is that my "regular" charger
>has no regulation.)
>
>You could probably put most of a charge in with a regular charger, but you'd
>need some way to accurately measure the peak voltage during charging.  Since
>the charger output is not filtered,  the voltage will vary between battery
>voltage and some peak value 120 times/second.  My voltmeter won't read those
>peaks, but maybe yours will.  An oscilloscope would be the only other way,
>IMO ... and even then, you'd have to (a) sit and watch it constantly, and
>(b) not put in a full charge.
>
>Randall

From lspector at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 05:36:07 2008
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:36:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <167503c10801220436x65110027r787f3c8219d3ac68@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a 2-stage IR that's very similar to the second one you
listed. It's been bulletproof, and provides more than enough air for
my purposes (same smattering of air tools- no blast cabinet yet). One
notable difference between the IR and the Sears units is the 100% duty
cycle that the IR is rated for.

-Larry

On Jan 21, 2008 5:45 PM, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
> I returned the little 33 gallon, oil-less, cheapie compressor that I had on
> semi-permanent loan from a friend this past weekend.  Now I need a more
> permanent solution for my garage.
>
> I will admit right off the bat that I don't really need very much air, and
> that the 33-gallon 110V compressor got the job done.  I run the usual
> smattering of air tools (impact, cutoff, ratchet, etc.) as well as blow up
> tires and such.  I don't like oil-less, because it was noisy, and I don't
> like the 33 gallon part because it was noisy pretty frequently.  I'd also
> like to know that if I decide to buy a blast cabinet or something for a
> project that I can run it.  I'd hate to spend the money and not have the
> capacity I need later.
>
> So I'm looking at compressors and narrowing my requirements.  It has to be
> oil lubricated, I like the 60 gallon vertical tanks because they're big
> enough to hold quite a bit of air, but don't take up a huge amount of my
> precious floor space, and I am leaning towards a two-stage pump because that
> gets you into the 175 PSI range (effectively increasing your air storage by
> 1/3).
>
> Right now I'm looking really hard at these three:
>
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00919261000P?vName=Tools&cName=Compressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators
>
>
> Lots of air, but only 135 PSI because it's single stage.
>
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00918298000P?vName=Tools&cName=Compressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators
>
>
> Now we're talking...  175 PSI and still plenty of air for me.  I like the
> 'industrial' aspect of this one.  The long service life they quote is
> attractive.  More expensive though.
>
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00916781000P?vName=Tools&cName=Compressors+%26+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors+%26+Inflators
>
>
> Now you throw this guy in there.  It looks like everything the 2-stage IR is
> but better, and much cheaper to boot.  I think that I'd prefer a 60-gal
> tank so that it would take a bit less space, but the extra capacity doesn't
> hurt either.  I lose the IR name, and I've heard that they make a quality
> product.  Does anybody know anything about the quality of the larger Sears
> compressors?
>
> Right now Sears is doing 15% off on top of the sale prices on those
> compressors, so I could potentially get a pretty good deal if I put in
> an order tonight.
>
> I'm ready to throw myself at the mercy of shop-talk for advice...

From lane495 at nctc.com  Tue Jan 22 06:05:41 2008
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:05:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><0D4AC543-BA33-4D43-8D0C-4E30922088A0@groupwbench.org>
	<014001c85c9e$8c3411f0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <008c01c85cf7$80d688c0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>

----- Original Message ----- 



> I'll second the Linksys WRT54G.

FWIW, I also like the Linksys WRT54G.  I have a computer in the garage/shop, 
one in the master bedroom, a Palm, and a computer up at the barn, all of 
them have no problem connecting to the network.  The barn is roughly 
200'-250' away from the router.  This weekend I am hoping to connect the 
"barn cam"  up to the wireless to  keep an eye out for newborns so I don't 
have to keep running up there checking on them.

Patricia

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jan 22 07:42:53 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:42:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> I will also recommend the WRT54g, but I don't run the Linksys firmware, 
> 3rd party DD-WRT firmware for me.  He's my firewall and is pretty 
> stable.  Nice thing is you an boost the signal range (if you dare) as 
> well as many other cool things.

Boost the signal range... Really?

I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house 
very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never 
heard that you could boost the signal with them...

Can you tell me/us some more info on where to find the firewall firmware?

Thanks!

Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 22 07:52:34 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:52:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Verizon FIOS
In-Reply-To: <479553C9.3050604@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <226329.91104.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am happy with it.
I need fast reliable internet access for my job, and
the cable modem service I had was sometimes glitchy. 
So when Fios became available, I got it installed.  (I
keep the cable internet service active as a backup,
but I haven't needed to use it.)

More recently I found that I could get Fios TV in a
package for the same price as I was already paying for
just the phone and internet service.  (We also got a
HD TV over Christmas, so we had more motivation to
have something besides the antenna to connect it to.) 


Fios has lots of HD channels included in the standard
packag.  We rarely watch any non-HD channels.  As far
as I am concerned, traditional analog SD television is
obsolete.  The Verizon 3-in-1 package is a good deal
if you want fast internet access as well as HD TV.

There are lots of web sites that discuss the
characteristics of Fios.  Start with dslreports.com
Doug

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Jan 22 08:00:06 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:00:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
> Boost the signal range... Really?
> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house 
> very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never 
> heard that you could boost the signal with them...

I've dug through the source code to some of the Linksys boxes that it's available for.  Apparently the same frequency range is used in many countries.  But local regulations may not allow full strength.  The USA spec one I looked at had, IIRC 12 channels.  #1 and #12 at the extreme ranges were knocked down to like 70% power, but the ones in between were 100%.  For some other countries, they were only around 2/3 power across the whole range.

Apparently a lot of the WAPs' signal is like a horizontal plane.  If the receiver is in the plane at the same elevation, reception is good;  even over a long range.  But a slight vertical displacement may cause lousy reception, even if you're close by.  So you might try repositioning the antenna or box for a better signal.

  -Wayne

From bottorff25 at verizon.net  Tue Jan 22 08:15:38 2008
From: bottorff25 at verizon.net (bottorff25 at verizon.net)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:15:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Verizon FIOS
Message-ID: <31970181.3933011201014939126.JavaMail.root@vms075.mailsrvcs.net>

We've had FiOS tv and internet at our home for a couple years now (we didn't bother with phone service since we haven't had a home phone in years). In our case we have much faster internet speeds along with the best HD signal quality and more channels then we had with cable internet/tv and it's actually cheaper! If FiOS is available in your area I highly recommend checking into it.

-Damon

From trevor at boicey.com  Tue Jan 22 10:15:02 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:15:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <44297.198.103.223.52.1201022102.squirrel@new.host.name>

> Boost the signal range... Really?
>
> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house
> very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never
> heard that you could boost the signal with them...
>
> Can you tell me/us some more info on where to find the firewall firmware?

  There is also the accessory signal booster that attaches to the WRT54G.

  It looks like another WRT54G but with only a power light. You move the
antennas to the new unit and bridge the two with two small coax cables.

  I actually have the range extender but to be honest I have only
circumstantial evidence that it helps. I upgraded an old B router to
this G router, which came with the booster.

  Reception in my house did indeed improve and I don't have any more "dead
spots" above steel beams, but that might have been improved just by
going to the new router even without the signal booster.

  I never bothered experimenting with before and after...

  The main "problem" with the WRT54G is the high failure rate of power
supplies. I have had one fail which knocked me offline at a bad time
when I wasn't home to repair...

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 22 10:50:38 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:50:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W2579EF59739DEE51B3D5A29A3E0@phx.gbl>

dd-wrt.com is the site

read everything before you try, make sure your router is compatible too

The only downside is that boosting the range is illegal, may cause harm from
the increased power of the radio waves, and might shorten the life of the
router.  I would experiment with increasing a little at a time.  Or get a
repeater.

Also experiment with placement, usually higher is better (2nd floor over 1st
floor) or orienting the antenna(s) so that they direct the signal to the areas
you need coverage.

could also be you just need to change the channel the router uses to something
else different to avoid interference with say a neighbors network, or other
radio-emitting device.

-PJ

> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:42:53 -0500
> From: mark at sccaprepared.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT: Wireless router (again)?
>
> Howdy,
>
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>> I will also recommend the WRT54g, but I don't run the Linksys firmware,
>> 3rd party DD-WRT firmware for me. He's my firewall and is pretty
>> stable. Nice thing is you an boost the signal range (if you dare) as
>> well as many other cool things.
>
> Boost the signal range... Really?
>
> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house
> very well. I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never
> heard that you could boost the signal with them...
>
> Can you tell me/us some more info on where to find the firewall firmware?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.

From mpless at servo.ucsd.edu  Tue Jan 22 10:52:12 2008
From: mpless at servo.ucsd.edu (Marcus Pless)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:52:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Tivo Talk
In-Reply-To: Steve Shipley <shiples@comcast.net> "Tivo Talk" (Jan 21, 2:25pm)
References: <BAY108-W40454C2A128721B709EB039A3D0@phx.gbl> 
	<5.2.1.1.0.20080121134514.03101360@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <10801220952.ZM540353@servo.ucsd.edu>

On Jan 21,  2:25pm, Steve Shipley wrote:
> Subject: Tivo Talk
> 
> I haven't paid much attention to my Tivo but I did upgrade to a Series2 
> last year since they allowed me to transfer my lifetime subscription.  
> So now I have a Philips ptv300 that is sitting idle.
>
> I knew these things were upgradable but I didn't realize they were 
> networkable.
> Accessing Rhapsody from the Tivo has been a pleasant surprise.
>
> I've always wanted a computer and TV for the shop and the Tivo would make
> it just that much cooler.  I did a cursory Google and found a kit.
>
> Could you provide a few more details, links, and/or recommendations?
>
>-- End of excerpt from Steve Shipley


I bought a "TurboNET" network card from 9thTee 
(http://www.9thtee.com/turbonet.htm).

I suspect that there are other things one can do with a networked 
Series 1 Tivo, but my main goal was to allow the Tivo to get it's 
listing data via the internet, and do away with the reliance on a
wired phone line. The TurboNET card worked as advertised. I installed
the card and used the optional Connect Kit to move the ethernet 
connection outside of the box (this is not necessary, but it makes 
things a bit cleaner). Version 3 of the Tivo software already has 
support for this network card built in; all I had to do was plug in 
the card and get it wired to my router (it needs a DHCP server), 
start up the Tivo, enter in a special "dialing prefix", and my Tivo 
no longer needs a phone line to get the listing data.


--Marcus

From mattw at webtripper.com  Tue Jan 22 10:52:25 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:52:25 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <200801221152.26759.mattw@webtripper.com>

On Tuesday 22 January 2008 08:42, Mark Andy wrote:
> Boost the signal range... Really?
>
> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house
> very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never
> heard that you could boost the signal with them...

Technically illegal, just so you know, adding more power can get you into FCC 
issues.  Probably not an issue unless you start interfering with others and 
they complain.

I'd try a good antennae first, that can make all the difference.
Do you have a full G version with dual antennae's?

> Can you tell me/us some more info on where to find the firewall firmware?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark

Funny I am in the same boat of getting wireless up and running.

Here is some info on DD-WRT.
http://www.dd-wrt.com/dd-wrtv2/index.php
http://www.testmy.net/forum/t-12222

Here are a couple of alternatives.

http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato (easy to use, AJAX GUI)
http://wiki.openwrt.org/ (for advanced users, need to know basic shell)

There seems to be some issues with DD-WRt and GPL licesing, so I think I will 
be looking into one of the alternatives.

Some of the issues are listed here,

http://www.bitsum.com/about-ddwrt.htm

Basically it seems that the 'author' of DD-WRT is now breaking  the original 
GPL licensing terms (taking someone elses software and calling it their own 
and then not releasing the source code).

Funny thing is that this was the reason that DD-WRT was originally forked.
Something to consider if you care about freedoms.

Also I don't like the security implications of not having peer review on 
security related code.

http://www.bitsum.com/about-ddwrt.htm

------------ Hardware----------------
I bought a Linksys wrt54g from Best buy.  I will be returning it since it is a 
newer 'G' version which has less flash (and RAM???) than the older versions.  
It doesn't run Linux stock, but that can be gotten around by now.
I have ordered a 'GL' version which is the older version that still runs linux 
and has more flash.
There are also other alternatives that will run the aftermarket firmware 
available if you look.
Something else to consider if purchasing new hardware.

Matt Wehland

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Jan 22 10:52:49 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:52:49 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers
In-Reply-To: <4795A299.6050908@sitestar.net>
References: <20080122061248.YTWW5487.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
	<4795A299.6050908@sitestar.net>
Message-ID: <03c401c85d1f$9ab4d210$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> The 90 amp alternator 
> that is set at 14.4 volts has always charged it with absolutely no 
> operating problems.

Which of course is exactly as Optima says it should.

>  It isn't hard to build a simple adjustable output voltage 
> limiter/regulator into any simple charger. 

No argument from me, I just wouldn't call the result a "regular" charger.
Perhaps I misunderstood the question, I thought it was "can I use a regular
charger", not "can I modify a charger for this purpose" ?

> I'll bet that there are chips now days that 
> will do the same thing. 

I'm sure it can be done, but there are some caveats.  Most high-current
linear regulators need to have input that stays 2-3 volts above the output
voltage.  An unfiltered supply (like a standard battery charger) isn't going
to do that, so you'll also need to add capacitance to hold the voltage up
... which means you need to derate the transformer and rectifiers because
they now see much higher peak currents.  Don't have my books handy, but as I
recall the derating is substantial.  So starting with a "10 amp" charger may
net you only a 5 amp regulated charger after spending significant money on
the regulator and capacitors and heat sink.  A fun project if you're doing
it for fun; but if you just want to charge a battery, it might not be the
most cost- or time effective way.

> Your meter won't 
> read the 
> 120 Hertz ripple because the battery which acts like a large 
> capacitor 
> when connected to the charger will filter the ripple out.

My meter won't read the peaks whether they are there or not.  Even without
the battery in the circuit, it reads nowhere near the peak voltage (as
confirmed by the o'scope).  And while I don't know what the ESR @ 120Hz is
for an Optima, it's fairly high for an ordinary battery ... it doesn't
filter the ripple as much as you'd think.  I used to even get hum in the AM
radio while charging with a "buzz box".

And while I'm certainly not a battery engineer; as I see it there WILL be
current pulses going into the fully charged battery even if the voltage
doesn't manage to rise much.  I'd guess it's the current after full charge
they are mostly worried about (since that's what causes outgassing, which is
a Bad Thing in a totally sealed cell).

But I haven't tried it ... somehow the logic of spending 300% as much on a
battery that might last 150% longer (with all this special care & feeding)
escapes me.  I get by just fine with the $40 specials at Wally-mart.  And
while 6 years interest on that $80 I left in the savings account won't buy a
new battery, it makes a big dent in it.

YMMV & all that ... if you try it, please let us know what happens.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jan 22 10:59:01 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:59:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
Message-ID: <200801221759.m0MHx1vx025670@moose.dimebank.com>

Instead of boosting power, which will raise the noise as well
as the signal, I suggest getting a better antenna. There
are lots of antennas that will double (+3db) or better (+7dB)
the perceived signal strength, just by plugging them in.

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Tue Jan 22 11:10:17 2008
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:10:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Treadmill tripping gfci
In-Reply-To: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <20080122181017.GB96510@sackheads.org>

On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 03:43:36PM -0800, cornerexit wrote:
> I have a treadmill in my shop and have been experiencing difficulties with
> it tripping the gfci, or tripping the little internal breaker on the
> treadmill itself. Usually happens at about the 20 minute mark into a 30
> minute walk. Seems intermittent, some days it works fine other days not so
> much. Tends to trip more on me (heavier) than my son, obviously I'm putting
> a bigger load on it. Also trips more when it is cold out. It was 30 degrees
> in the shop today and the treadmill only made it 15 minutes into the
> session.
> 
> Are treadmills usually pretty hard on a circuit? I've tried different gfci
> outlets and it still trips them. Should I pull the closest gfci outlet to
> the panel and replace it with a non gfci 20 amp outlet and see if still
> trips the breaker on the treadmill?
> 

The GFCI trips when it detects a current imbalance between hot and neutral.
A large inductive load, like a big motor, can cause a GFCI to trip by mistake.
If your treadmill's internal breaker wasn't also tripping, I'd be inclined to
say this is a possible cause.  But since you say the internal breaker is
also tripping, it sounds like something's wrong.  Does the breaker trip if you
leave the treadmill running with nobody on it (ie. as close to no load on the
motor as possible)?

For what it's worth, I see similar GFCI behavior with my underground sprinkler
system.  One zone in particular will occasionally cause the GFCI to trip.
It's very sporatic and when it does happen it's after that valve has
been active for 30-40 minutes.  The valve box remains dry and I see no 
obvious alternative path to ground.  The solenoid in the valve draws no 
more than 10VA so it's by no means a large inductive load.

I'm kind of scratching my head on this one.  That it doesn't happen for
30-40 minutes suggests that maybe there's a problem in the solenoid's 
windings or possibly a problem with the transformer powering the valves?

Jimmie

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 10:26:06 2008
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:26:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <008d01c85c8e$c3690410$80a8a8c0@dellc84024>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121154616.02876e90@incoming.verizon.net>
	<008d01c85c8e$c3690410$80a8a8c0@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20080122122556.0349ddf8@yahoo.com>

details?  pictures?


At 1/21/2008 at 19:36, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Arvid 
Jedlicka's keyboard and said:
> > It's not horribly noisy, but it is still an
> > air compressor.
>
>To cut down on the noise investigate a muffler for the intake air. I have
>one on mine and it makes a big difference.


Cheers!

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 22 11:40:04 2008
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:40:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Treadmill tripping gfci
In-Reply-To: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <022001c85d26$34bb7520$9e325f60$@net>

GFI outlets just don't seem to work well on large devices - this really
sucks since they are now mandatory for garages in all new construction, and
that's where most people are going to be plugging in freezers / compressors
/ heavy EQ.  And unless your planning on working barefoot in water using
power tools they really aren't needed.  I foresee in the future where all
outlets are rated to allow only .5 amp current draw to make us save money
and not use any heavy draw devices, and they will have a camera built in to
make sure we aren't trying to hook up an extension cord or outlet splitter.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
cornerexit
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:44 PM
To: 'Shop Talk'
Subject: [Shop-talk] Treadmill tripping gfci

Howdy,

 

I have a treadmill in my shop and have been experiencing difficulties with
it tripping the gfci, or tripping the little internal breaker on the
treadmill itself. Usually happens at about the 20 minute mark into a 30
minute walk. Seems intermittent, some days it works fine other days not so
much. Tends to trip more on me (heavier) than my son, obviously I'm putting
a bigger load on it. Also trips more when it is cold out. It was 30 degrees
in the shop today and the treadmill only made it 15 minutes into the
session.

 

When I wired the shop I wired each circuit with a gfci in it, usually at the
beginning of the circuit so that the downstream outlets would be protected
as well. The circuits are 20 amps, with appropriate wire, breaker, and 20amp
gfci outlets, all to code, passed inspection etc. There are no other devices
operating on the circuit when the treadmill is going.

 

Are treadmills usually pretty hard on a circuit? I've tried different gfci
outlets and it still trips them. Should I pull the closest gfci outlet to
the panel and replace it with a non gfci 20 amp outlet and see if still
trips the breaker on the treadmill?

 

Thanks

Wayne
You are subscribed as rs1121 at earthlink.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Jan 22 11:41:19 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:41:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <200801221152.26759.mattw@webtripper.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<200801221152.26759.mattw@webtripper.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801221336290.6261@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Matt Wehland wrote:
>> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house
>> very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never
>> heard that you could boost the signal with them...
>
> I'd try a good antennae first, that can make all the difference.
> Do you have a full G version with dual antennae's?

I've got the one with the dual antennas.  I tried one of the "high gain" 
antennas once and reception was a bit worse than the standard 
configuration.

Someone mentioned a repeater?  Something that just needed some power and 
could otherwise sit wherever would be nice.  Its not like our house is 
very big... 2300 ft^2, but its a sprawling ranch layout (great on the 
heating bill... :-/) and the router is at one corner of the house.

Still, its probably only 50' or 75' or so through three walls from the 
router to where I'd like better reception.  Not sure why the signal 
strength is so crappy there.

Perhaps I'll try a different channel, just in case there's some 
interference.  We do have a 2.4 Ghz and an older (900 MHz? 
Something else) cordless phone...

Mark

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 12:12:29 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:12:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <647378.39299.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Another source for info on the alternate firmware, (in 
addition to the ones already mentioned,) 
linksysinfo.org. 

Some of the threads have some neat instructions on how 
to take the routers apart. I've been wanting to add a 
fan to mine because it runs fairly warm. It's somewhere 
on the bottom of the to-do list. ;)

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

--- Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:

(snip)
> Boost the signal range... Really?
> 
> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house 
> very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never 
> heard that you could boost the signal with them...
> 
> Can you tell me/us some more info on where to find the firewall firmware?

(snip)



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 12:18:37 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:18:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <647378.39299.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<647378.39299.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220801221118x4bc4f77bt3dc32f6eb8bd5888@mail.gmail.com>

Mine has run pretty warm for like 6-7 years.  Hasn't seemed to hurt it
yet...

On Jan 22, 2008 2:12 PM, Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Another source for info on the alternate firmware, (in
> addition to the ones already mentioned,)
> linksysinfo.org.
>
> Some of the threads have some neat instructions on how
> to take the routers apart. I've been wanting to add a
> fan to mine because it runs fairly warm. It's somewhere
> on the bottom of the to-do list. ;)
>
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jan 22 12:19:48 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:19:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801221336290.6261@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<200801221152.26759.mattw@webtripper.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801221336290.6261@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <479641D4.7010909@dimebank.com>

> Someone mentioned a repeater?  Something that just needed some power and 
> could otherwise sit wherever would be nice.  Its not like our house is 
> very big... 2300 ft^2, but its a sprawling ranch layout (great on the 
> heating bill... :-/) and the router is at one corner of the house.

You can set up another access point to act as a wireless repeater using 
something called WDS. It will join the specified SSID network and pass 
packets back and forth.

> Perhaps I'll try a different channel, just in case there's some 
> interference.  We do have a 2.4 Ghz and an older (900 MHz? 
> Something else) cordless phone...

The 2.4 phone has a high likelihood of causing you problems.

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 13:43:42 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:43:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <479643B5.3020706@dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <72278.76080.qm@web57003.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

That requires finding the drill somewhere in the
garage. (Cleaning up and organizing that is another 
item on the list. :p ) 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


--- Chris Kantarjiev <cak at dimebank.com> wrote:

(snip)
> 
> I'd start by drilling extra holes!
> 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 14:00:26 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:00:26 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Treadmill tripping gfci
In-Reply-To: <20080122181017.GB96510@sackheads.org>
References: <04bb01c85c87$71c3d920$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
	<20080122181017.GB96510@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <064801c85d39$d0792b20$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>

Well to be honest, now that I think about it, the internal breaker has only
tripped once, the outlet tripping happens frequently. However, neither the
internal breaker nor the outlet will trip when the treadmill is running with
no load on it. It will seemingly run for hours without a problem if there is
no load on the belt.

Ron, your prediction re: monitoring and restrictions sends chills up my
spine, but I suspect you are correct, unfortunately. That seems to be the
way our society is going these days.

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+cornerexit=gmail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+cornerexit=gmail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Jimmie Mayfield
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:10 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Treadmill tripping gfci

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Jan 22 16:02:58 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:02:58 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801221336290.6261@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net><200801221152.26759.mattw@webtripper.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801221336290.6261@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <01e301c85d4a$ef0dc800$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

You can buy "long range" antenna for the WRT54G.  I've seen them at Frys
Electronics.  They are about 3-4 times longer than the original ones.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark
Andy
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:41 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT: Wireless router (again)?

Howdy,

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Matt Wehland wrote:
>> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole 
>> house very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's 
>> available, but never heard that you could boost the signal with them...
>
> I'd try a good antennae first, that can make all the difference.
> Do you have a full G version with dual antennae's?

I've got the one with the dual antennas.  I tried one of the "high gain" 
antennas once and reception was a bit worse than the standard configuration.

Someone mentioned a repeater?  Something that just needed some power and
could otherwise sit wherever would be nice.  Its not like our house is very
big... 2300 ft^2, but its a sprawling ranch layout (great on the heating
bill... :-/) and the router is at one corner of the house.

Still, its probably only 50' or 75' or so through three walls from the
router to where I'd like better reception.  Not sure why the signal strength
is so crappy there.

Perhaps I'll try a different channel, just in case there's some
interference.  We do have a 2.4 Ghz and an older (900 MHz? 
Something else) cordless phone...

Mark
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Tue Jan 22 17:00:20 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:00:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chamberlin Garage Door Opener
Message-ID: <002a01c85d52$f2996620$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

Kind of a stab in the dark here but the group has never failed me so let me
give it a go.
I have a Chamberlin Garage door opener  (chain drive)  that I have converted
to open my driveway gate. It has worked great for several years with minimum
problems. Recently it started reversing just before it reaches full close.
The  "obstacle in the way reversing"  is activated by  one what looks like a
Hall effect sensor you would find in a car,  a cup which turns inside the
head that has windows which turn with the drive shaft.
I believe my problem is with that sensor. Problem is I have no idea how that
system works. Anyone have any notion as to how such a sensor would work in a
Garage Door opener?

I'll take even WAG's.

Bob Nogueira

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Jan 22 17:23:07 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:23:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chamberlin Garage Door Opener
In-Reply-To: <002a01c85d52$f2996620$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080122192307.00a26e98@pop.east.cox.net>

At 06:00 PM 1/22/2008 -0600, Bob Nogueira wrote:

>Recently it started reversing just before it reaches full close.
>The  "obstacle in the way reversing"  is activated by  one what looks 
>like a Hall effect sensor you would find in a car,  a cup which turns 
>inside the head that has windows which turn with the drive shaft.

Bob,

I thought most obstical sensors were photoelectric beams.  An LED either
visable or IR would emit a light beam to a photo receiver.  If the receiver
does not get the light it opens the circuit so the opener doesn't work or
reverses.

I don't understand how/why they'd use a Hall effect sensor.  Unless they
are counting time between pulses.  If the time is too long, it figures
that something is stopping or slowing the opener (while it's closing) and
it stops and reverses.

You didn't say what model you have, but I did a google search (Chamberlin
Garage door opener) and found: http://www.liftmaster.com/

Under the garage door openers, I was able to find the owners manuals for
several units.  It infers that the sensor is an "eye" so I'd expect it
to be a optic system not a magnetic system.

I didn't spend a lot of time looking to try and find a repair manual or
schematic.

In their manual it states:

3. My door reverses for no apparent reason:  Repeat safety reverse test after
adjustments to force or travel limits.  The need for occasional adjustment
for the force and limit settings is normal......


Hope this helps.


John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Jan 22 17:35:56 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:35:56 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <47968BEC.3000905@hornesystemstx.com>

While DD-WRT is great, it isn't everything it appears to be. I've 
installed DD-WRT on several WRT54g routers and tested as many of the 
settings as I have need for. I have not been able to turn up the power 
on a WRT54g using DD-WRT past the Linksys stated output power, even 
though the menu lets you change the value. You can, however, turn it 
down. I think the setting is generic and allows you to set the output 
power up to whatever the max for each particular router model it is 
loaded on.

I've also found that the earlier WRT54g routers (version 4 and below) 
ware more reliable than the higher revision units. Having said that, 
loading DD-WRT onto any of the WRT54g routers helps them immensely!
It does, however, void the warranty and I have not found any way to 
reinstall Linksys's software.

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake Mark Andy:
> Howdy,
>
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>   
>> I will also recommend the WRT54g, but I don't run the Linksys firmware, 
>> 3rd party DD-WRT firmware for me.  He's my firewall and is pretty 
>> stable.  Nice thing is you an boost the signal range (if you dare) as 
>> well as many other cool things.
>>     
>
> Boost the signal range... Really?
>
> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house 
> very well.  I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never 
> heard that you could boost the signal with them...
>
> Can you tell me/us some more info on where to find the firewall firmware?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 17:44:59 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:44:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chamberlin Garage Door Opener
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080122192307.00a26e98@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <002a01c85d52$f2996620$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
	<3.0.5.32.20080122192307.00a26e98@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801221644l7561c81av70870ff269087163@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 22, 2008 7:23 PM, John T. Blair <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:
> At 06:00 PM 1/22/2008 -0600, Bob Nogueira wrote:
>
> >Recently it started reversing just before it reaches full close.
> >The  "obstacle in the way reversing"  is activated by  one what looks
> >like a Hall effect sensor you would find in a car,  a cup which turns
> >inside the head that has windows which turn with the drive shaft.
>
> Bob,
>
> I thought most obstical sensors were photoelectric beams.  An LED either
> visable or IR would emit a light beam to a photo receiver.  If the receiver
> does not get the light it opens the circuit so the opener doesn't work or
> reverses.
>
> I don't understand how/why they'd use a Hall effect sensor.  Unless they
> are counting time between pulses.  If the time is too long, it figures
> that something is stopping or slowing the opener (while it's closing) and
> it stops and reverses.

Garage door openers have two (some have more, these days) safety
system.  One is the optical beam sensor.  The other is force limiting.
 If the door hits something, it's supposed to stop and reverse to full
open.  The test for a door is to put a 2X flat on the floor, 2 inch
edge vertical.  The door should hit it, and reverse.  If it stays
shut, you need to adjust the sensor.  On the units I've ever dealt
with, the control for that is a screw on the motor unit.  They do
drift sometimes.  The other thing that happens is that the chain gets
harder to move, and the amount of force needed to operate the door
goes up.  You lubricated the chain lately?  or has it been very cold?

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 22 18:17:11 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:17:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <889045.12113.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You can boost the router's transmit power, but if the
router cannot receive the signal from the computer, it
won't help.

Doug

--- Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:

> Boost the signal range... Really?
> 
> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't
> cover the whole house 
> very well.  I've heard about the different
> firmware's available, but never 
> heard that you could boost the signal with them...

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 22 18:33:06 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:33:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <47968BEC.3000905@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net> 
	<47968BEC.3000905@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W2804068709D91A95FE04A49A3F0@phx.gbl>

OpenWRT I've heard is another good one, there are others as well.

There are guys on Ebay selling older WRTs with and without the firmware
already installed.  The older ones also  came with more internal memory and
may be better quality.

I have a v.4 and have had no problems.  I have the VPN firmware which allows
me to tunnel into my router from other locations using OpenVPN.

My next one will be the new Linksys router with a USB port so that you can
attach external drives for file sharing on the network (like a NAS device) or
run a 3rd party firmware and install a bunch of applications on the usb drive,
since they run Linux.

PJ

> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:35:56 -0600
> From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
> To: mark at sccaprepared.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT: Wireless router (again)?
>
> While DD-WRT is great, it isn't everything it appears to be. I've
> installed DD-WRT on several WRT54g routers and tested as many of the
> settings as I have need for. I have not been able to turn up the power
> on a WRT54g using DD-WRT past the Linksys stated output power, even
> though the menu lets you change the value. You can, however, turn it
> down. I think the setting is generic and allows you to set the output
> power up to whatever the max for each particular router model it is
> loaded on.
>
> I've also found that the earlier WRT54g routers (version 4 and below)
> ware more reliable than the higher revision units. Having said that,
> loading DD-WRT onto any of the WRT54g routers helps them immensely!
> It does, however, void the warranty and I have not found any way to
> reinstall Linksys's software.
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
>
> Thusly spake Mark Andy:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>>
>>> I will also recommend the WRT54g, but I don't run the Linksys firmware,
>>> 3rd party DD-WRT firmware for me. He's my firewall and is pretty
>>> stable. Nice thing is you an boost the signal range (if you dare) as
>>> well as many other cool things.
>>>
>>
>> Boost the signal range... Really?
>>
>> I've got a wrt54g and the location its in doesn't cover the whole house
>> very well. I've heard about the different firmware's available, but never
>> heard that you could boost the signal with them...
>>
>> Can you tell me/us some more info on where to find the firewall firmware?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Mark
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
> (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!

From mjw at littlegrassy.com  Tue Jan 22 20:12:10 2008
From: mjw at littlegrassy.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:12:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <01e301c85d4a$ef0dc800$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801221336290.6261@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<01e301c85d4a$ef0dc800$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <200801222112.11480.mjw@littlegrassy.com>

On Tuesday 22 January 2008 17:02, Jack Brooks wrote:
> You can buy "long range" antenna for the WRT54G.  I've seen them at Frys
> Electronics.  They are about 3-4 times longer than the original ones.
> Jack

The big thing to look for in antenna's is whether it is directional or 
omni-directional.

Most users want an Omni directional antenna that will cover their whole house 
or building.
A directional antenna is great for 2 repeaters (get the antenna's on towers 
and have a ball, even a pringles can can work (google pringles antenna).
Also good for providing wireless to a park or certain location from an 
adjacent antenna.

If you are going to get an antenna make sure it will help your situation.

Most antenna's that you can find at Fry's etc. should be omni-directional.
If the antenna is a whip your fine, if it is like a can or even a dish it is 
more likely directional.

Matt Wehland

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Jan 22 20:19:25 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:19:25 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
Message-ID: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL>

We just bought a 2005 GMC Yukon XL Denali, to eventually replace our '93
Suburban.  It was a lease vehicle, turned in after 3 years of use.  It shows a
little over 37,000 miles, which sounds right for typical usage, and an average
lease.

Beautiful vehicle, every option, and far too many toys to have comprehended
them all before driving off with it.

Sitting in it tonight I found the fuel data display, which shows 14.9 average
MPG, and 5,008 total gallons of fuel used, which should equate to 75,000
miles, not the 37,000 it also shows.

Anyone have any experience with these systems in GM vehicles ?  I'll call a
dealer tomorrow, but meanwhile I'm worried that I got taken somehow in some
sort of odometer scheme, but with it all being electronic I thought that was
pretty difficult to do.  Or maybe the fuel totalizer is way off ??

Help - so I can get some sleep tonight !!

TIA
Karl

From edvs at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 20:47:13 2008
From: edvs at yahoo.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:47:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 55k btu radiant kerosene heater?
In-Reply-To: <007d01c85c42$7a28cbb0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <751657.18951.qm@web51007.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I have the same model kerosene heater. Works great but
I'm not happy with the fact that kerosene is $7 a
gallon here (in bulk.....$10 for gallon cans at Home
Depot) soooo.... I have a friend that claims he burns
jet fuel in his. He lives next to an airport and says
he buys "outdated" fuel cheap, and it works fine. I am
leary of trying jet fuel, anybody had any experience
with it in a heater???
Ed


 
--- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> If you want to fix your existing heater,
> Reddy-Heater is part of Desa - in 
> Kentucky as I recall - and should have parts. 
> They're set up for DIY'ers - 
> decent tech support is available by phone and
> they'll mail parts right out.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> > So my forced air kerosene heater has finally
> decided to stop working...
> > For a couple years now I've kept the cover loose
> so that I could slide it
> > out of the way and spin the fan by hand to "loosen
> it up" when it wouldn't
> > start.  Now I can still do that, but the fan never
> seems to really spin up
> > to full speed and eventually kicks the breaker on
> the unit (Reddy heater,
> > 55k btu, if you have ideas on how to make it work.
>  I can see the spark,
> > so I know its not that).
> >
> > Anyway, I was looking at other options and ran
> across this one at lowes:
> >
>
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=239878-57645-PT55SS&lpage=none
> >
> > Anyone know anything about this type of heater? 
> The btu output is much
> > higher than other radiant kerosene heaters I've
> seen and the promise of
> > less noise would be welcome...
> >
> > Googling ProTemp Sun-Stream got me nowwhere.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as edvs at yahoo.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From bill at gingerich.us  Tue Jan 22 20:52:06 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:52:06 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>

Another side effect of boosting power is that it allows others to access
your network more easily.  None of the security on access points is
foolproof.  While it may not be likely, they can be hacked.  Anyway, just
something to consider.

Bill G
OKC

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Tue Jan 22 21:16:00 2008
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:16:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
In-Reply-To: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <000d01c85d76$ab259470$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>

On Tuesday, January 22, 2008, at 19:19, Karl wrote:

> Sitting in it tonight I found the fuel data display, which 
> shows 14.9 average MPG, and 5,008 total gallons of fuel used, 
> which should equate to 75,000 miles, not the 37,000 it also shows.

Run a Carfax report tonight. In the morning, contact your state department
of motor vehicles and speak to the section that handles odometer fraud.
Looks like there's at least one device on the market
http://www.diga-soft.de/odometer-programming.html for "correcting" odometer
readings.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From whesr at iglou.com  Tue Jan 22 21:23:15 2008
From: whesr at iglou.com (Bill Engle, Sr)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:23:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
In-Reply-To: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <E1JHX93-00038F-OX@iglou.com>

Most of the selections on the GM computers can be reset separately so 
they would not necessarily agree.  If you are worried you can have a 
dealer read the computer to check for a change to the odometer.  The 
mileage is recorder in about six different places most people can't 
change them all.

Bill




At 10:19 PM 1/22/2008, Karl Vacek wrote:
>We just bought a 2005 GMC Yukon XL Denali, to eventually replace our '93
>Suburban.  It was a lease vehicle, turned in after 3 years of use.  It shows a
>little over 37,000 miles, which sounds right for typical usage, and an average
>lease.
>
>Beautiful vehicle, every option, and far too many toys to have comprehended
>them all before driving off with it.
>
>Sitting in it tonight I found the fuel data display, which shows 14.9 average
>MPG, and 5,008 total gallons of fuel used, which should equate to 75,000
>miles, not the 37,000 it also shows.
>
>Anyone have any experience with these systems in GM vehicles ?  I'll call a
>dealer tomorrow, but meanwhile I'm worried that I got taken somehow in some
>sort of odometer scheme, but with it all being electronic I thought that was
>pretty difficult to do.  Or maybe the fuel totalizer is way off ??
>
>Help - so I can get some sleep tonight !!
>
>TIA
>Karl

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 21:26:05 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:26:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
In-Reply-To: <E1JHX93-00038F-OX@iglou.com>
References: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL> <E1JHX93-00038F-OX@iglou.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801222026q1ba8ac9dq7ab1fc6f0efd9f9f@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 22, 2008 11:23 PM, Bill Engle, Sr <whesr at iglou.com> wrote:
> Most of the selections on the GM computers can be reset separately so
> they would not necessarily agree.  If you are worried you can have a
> dealer read the computer to check for a change to the odometer.  The
> mileage is recorder in about six different places most people can't
> change them all.
>

Make sure you talk to a different dealer than the one you bought the
truck from, though.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 22 21:47:01 2008
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:47:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 55k btu radiant kerosene heater?
In-Reply-To: <751657.18951.qm@web51007.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <007d01c85c42$7a28cbb0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<751657.18951.qm@web51007.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <041c01c85d7a$feb70660$fc251320$@net>

Pretty close to the same stuff - Odor will be a bit stronger.  Must be an
awfully small airport - mot have it in the Big tanks - I have not heard of
outdated fuel, but I guess it's possible - I have seen water or contaminated
fuel.

Try it and see - it won't harm the heater.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Ed Van Scoy
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:47 PM
To: Karl Vacek; Mark Andy; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 55k btu radiant kerosene heater?

I have the same model kerosene heater. Works great but
I'm not happy with the fact that kerosene is $7 a
gallon here (in bulk.....$10 for gallon cans at Home
Depot) soooo.... I have a friend that claims he burns
jet fuel in his. He lives next to an airport and says
he buys "outdated" fuel cheap, and it works fine. I am
leary of trying jet fuel, anybody had any experience
with it in a heater???
Ed


 
--- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> If you want to fix your existing heater,
> Reddy-Heater is part of Desa - in 
> Kentucky as I recall - and should have parts. 
> They're set up for DIY'ers - 
> decent tech support is available by phone and
> they'll mail parts right out.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> > So my forced air kerosene heater has finally
> decided to stop working...
> > For a couple years now I've kept the cover loose
> so that I could slide it
> > out of the way and spin the fan by hand to "loosen
> it up" when it wouldn't
> > start.  Now I can still do that, but the fan never
> seems to really spin up
> > to full speed and eventually kicks the breaker on
> the unit (Reddy heater,
> > 55k btu, if you have ideas on how to make it work.
>  I can see the spark,
> > so I know its not that).
> >
> > Anyway, I was looking at other options and ran
> across this one at lowes:
> >
>
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=239878-57645-P
T55SS&lpage=none
> >
> > Anyone know anything about this type of heater? 
> The btu output is much
> > higher than other radiant kerosene heaters I've
> seen and the promise of
> > less noise would be welcome...
> >
> > Googling ProTemp Sun-Stream got me nowwhere.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as edvs at yahoo.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
You are subscribed as rs1121 at earthlink.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From shoptalk2 at centipi.com  Tue Jan 22 21:49:13 2008
From: shoptalk2 at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:49:13 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801222026q1ba8ac9dq7ab1fc6f0efd9f9f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL> <E1JHX93-00038F-OX@iglou.com>
	<2400a5d40801222026q1ba8ac9dq7ab1fc6f0efd9f9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019b01c85d7b$4d7da6a0$6801a8c0@proteus457>

And please let us know what you find so the rest of us will know what to
watch out for.

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Scheidt
> 
> On Jan 22, 2008 11:23 PM, Bill Engle, Sr <whesr at iglou.com> wrote:
> > Most of the selections on the GM computers can be reset separately so
> > they would not necessarily agree.  If you are worried you can have a
> > dealer read the computer to check for a change to the odometer.  The
> > mileage is recorder in about six different places most people can't
> > change them all.
> >
> 
> Make sure you talk to a different dealer than the one you bought the
> truck from, though.
> 
> 
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 22 21:48:53 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:48:53 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
References: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <008701c85d7b$41bf8450$2c347d80@B50SS>

Dear Karl,

My first guess is that all is fine. The MPG on GMC's can be reset whenever 
you wish. So if this vehicle has seen a good deal of 11-12 MPG work, it 
could account for the total gallons vs MPG ratings that you see.

Reset the MPG and see what you average. The previous owners could have had a 
boat and a heavy foot.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:19 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer


> We just bought a 2005 GMC Yukon XL Denali, to eventually replace our '93
> Suburban.  It was a lease vehicle, turned in after 3 years of use.  It 
> shows a
> little over 37,000 miles, which sounds right for typical usage, and an 
> average
> lease.
>
> Beautiful vehicle, every option, and far too many toys to have 
> comprehended
> them all before driving off with it.
>
> Sitting in it tonight I found the fuel data display, which shows 14.9 
> average
> MPG, and 5,008 total gallons of fuel used, which should equate to 75,000
> miles, not the 37,000 it also shows.
>
> Anyone have any experience with these systems in GM vehicles ?  I'll call 
> a
> dealer tomorrow, but meanwhile I'm worried that I got taken somehow in 
> some
> sort of odometer scheme, but with it all being electronic I thought that 
> was
> pretty difficult to do.  Or maybe the fuel totalizer is way off ??
>
> Help - so I can get some sleep tonight !!
>
> TIA
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From shoptalk2 at centipi.com  Tue Jan 22 22:01:41 2008
From: shoptalk2 at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:01:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
In-Reply-To: <008701c85d7b$41bf8450$2c347d80@B50SS>
References: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<008701c85d7b$41bf8450$2c347d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <019f01c85d7d$0af85080$6801a8c0@proteus457>

That would be an overall average of 7.4 MPG.  Doubtful.

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: old dirtbeard
> 
> Dear Karl,
> 
> My first guess is that all is fine. The MPG on GMC's can be reset whenever
> you wish. So if this vehicle has seen a good deal of 11-12 MPG work, it
> could account for the total gallons vs MPG ratings that you see.
> 
> Reset the MPG and see what you average. The previous owners could have had
> a
> boat and a heavy foot.
> 
> best,
> 
> shook
> ____________________
> '72 BSA B50SS
> '74 Triumph TR6
> '01 HD XHL 883
> '03 GMC Cargo Van
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:19 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
> 
> 
> > We just bought a 2005 GMC Yukon XL Denali, to eventually replace our '93
> > Suburban.  It was a lease vehicle, turned in after 3 years of use.  It
> > shows a
> > little over 37,000 miles, which sounds right for typical usage, and an
> > average
> > lease.
> >
> > Beautiful vehicle, every option, and far too many toys to have
> > comprehended
> > them all before driving off with it.
> >
> > Sitting in it tonight I found the fuel data display, which shows 14.9
> > average
> > MPG, and 5,008 total gallons of fuel used, which should equate to 75,000
> > miles, not the 37,000 it also shows.
> >
> > Anyone have any experience with these systems in GM vehicles ?  I'll
> call
> > a
> > dealer tomorrow, but meanwhile I'm worried that I got taken somehow in
> > some
> > sort of odometer scheme, but with it all being electronic I thought that
> > was
> > pretty difficult to do.  Or maybe the fuel totalizer is way off ??
> >
> > Help - so I can get some sleep tonight !!
> >
> > TIA
> > Karl

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Jan 22 22:51:46 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:51:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
In-Reply-To: <008701c85d7b$41bf8450$2c347d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <117879.38230.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If they ran the vehicle in a way that made it use 2x
the normal amount of gas, it probably got 2x the
normal amount of wear...

Doug

--- old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net> wrote:

> Reset the MPG and see what you average. The previous
> owners could have had a 
> boat and a heavy foot.

From rkg at teleport.com  Wed Jan 23 06:24:51 2008
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:24:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT:  Wireless router (again)?
In-Reply-To: <200801222112.11480.mjw@littlegrassy.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801221336290.6261@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<01e301c85d4a$ef0dc800$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<200801222112.11480.mjw@littlegrassy.com>
Message-ID: <47974023.80509@teleport.com>

Hey guys,

If you just need a little more range on your signals, you can modify the 
existing antennas to make them directional.  Check out:

http://www.freeantennas.com/

best,

rkg
(Richard George)
> On Tuesday 22 January 2008 17:02, Jack Brooks wrote:
>   
>> You can buy "long range" antenna for the WRT54G.  I've seen them at Frys
>> Electronics.  They are about 3-4 times longer than the original ones.
>> Jack
>>     
>
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 23 06:34:00 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:34:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>

And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting hacked,
nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in the
last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.

PJ


> From: bill at gingerich.us
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:52:06 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
>
> Another side effect of boosting power is that it allows others to access
> your network more easily. None of the security on access points is
> foolproof. While it may not be likely, they can be hacked. Anyway, just
> something to consider.
>
> Bill G
> OKC
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star
power.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Jan 23 07:55:33 2008
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:55:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting hacked,
> nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in the
> last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.

    This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's ironic you mention it in a 
thread about signal boosting.

    Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have 
significant chunks of property.  If your wireless signal doesn't extend 
beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge 
risk to using light-duty security?  No.

    If you live in an apartment building, yeah, lock it down.

--
  David Hillman

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Jan 23 08:16:18 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:16:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <47975A42.5090700@xxiii.com>

David Hillman wrote:
>     Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have 
> significant chunks of property.  If your wireless signal doesn't extend 
> beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge 
> risk to using light-duty security?  No.

Don't make too many assumptions about wireless range.  I had a WAP in my 2nd floor loft / computer room.  The wife & I have similar Dell notebooks with built in wi-fi.  Both got so-so signals in the house, but almost nothing outside or in my garage/basement.

Then a friend visited with a notebook with a wi-fi card & protruding antenna.  We installed NetStumbler;  a wi-fi sniffing utility with many and varied uses that identifies all available wireless networks.  He got a strong signal at the end of my 200' driveway, and could still connect down the road at probably 500' away!  On a 5 mile drive through somewhat rural country, it identified 13 networks;  only one appeared to be secured.

With directional antennas, people claim to get MILES of range.  I assume someone in just the right lucky spot a mile away might be able to find me!

  -Wayne

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 23 08:17:45 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:17:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl> 
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W14EA7C64380ED1D992C7619A3F0@phx.gbl>

It's almost as trivial to configure WEP security on a router as it is to crack
it these days.  Or as trivial as changing the default password on the router -
which I'm assuming you've done in order to feel as safe as you do.

I hear what you're saying.  But tell the truth, have we all verified from each
of our neighbors houses that they cannot access your router?  With a normal
network card or router, it may not be likely if you have a large property, but
there are relatively easy ways to amplify these signals as we're seeing with
home-made antennas...

Do you want to be the low-hanging fruit running an open network, while your
neighbors are all running some level of security?

I feel it's as basic to mention it as putting on your seatbelt, but then again
it's a big part of what I do for a living and I don't live on property the
size of a farm.  I hope I didn't sound like I was preaching.

PJ

> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:55:33 -0500
> From: hillman at planet-torque.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>> And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting hacked,
>> nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in
the
>> last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.
>
> This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's ironic you mention it in a
> thread about signal boosting.
>
> Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have
> significant chunks of property. If your wireless signal doesn't extend
> beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge
> risk to using light-duty security? No.
>
> If you live in an apartment building, yeah, lock it down.
>
> --
> David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 08:17:47 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:17:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 23, 2008 9:55 AM, David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> > And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting hacked,
> > nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in the
> > last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.
>
>     This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's ironic you mention it in a
> thread about signal boosting.
>
>     Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have
> significant chunks of property.  If your wireless signal doesn't extend
> beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge
> risk to using light-duty security?  No.

Wireless signals go a lot farther than you think.  With a directional
antenna, I can pick up -- and snoop, and use -- about a dozen wireless
networks, all of which are at least 800 feet from the house.  One of
these, I helped set up, and I know he complains that it doesn't work
well in the living room, yet I can use it a quarter mile away.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 08:32:23 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:32:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <441250190801221720r4bd34ab0q62c31b5ff197c62a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>
	<441250190801221720r4bd34ab0q62c31b5ff197c62a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220801230732ma8659ecr4135e31676fd24b6@mail.gmail.com>

Just a note to let everybody know that I've been reading these responses
with great interest.  I was **this** close to buying the Craftsman
compressor in my original note, but decided to wait and collect some more
opinions.  Now that I've done some more research, I am leaning more towards
IR or Quincy.  I'm pretty impressed with Eaton's website too, so I will look
into that.

-Paul
On Jan 22, 2008 8:20 PM, Bill Gilroy <wmgilroy at gmail.com> wrote:

> My advice is bigger is always better in this case.   I would only consider
> a two stage compressor.  Either an IR or a Quincy.  Quincy makes a good
> product, here is a quick like to some of their line
> http://www.tptools.com/p/2170,91_Quincy-5-HP-2-Stage.html you might be
> able to find better pricing.
>
> I have also heard good things about Eaton compressors,
> http://www.eatoncompressor.com/page/page/504413.htm  I know a guy that has
> 2 in his machine shop and he thinks very highly of their product.  Something
> like http://www.eatoncompressor.com/catalog/item/504747/206949.htm or
> this, http://www.eatoncompressor.com/catalog/item/504747/172459.htm
>
>
> -g

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Jan 23 08:50:52 2008
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:50:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W14EA7C64380ED1D992C7619A3F0@phx.gbl>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl> 
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<BAY108-W14EA7C64380ED1D992C7619A3F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20080123104011.E76209@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> Do you want to be the low-hanging fruit running an open network, while your
> neighbors are all running some level of security?

    That's kind-of what I was getting at.  The original claim was "nobody" 
should run WEP.  It's good enough for some people due to geography, and if 
nothing else, it gets you above the low-hanging "totally unsecure" fruit. 
There's at least one unsecured network on my block, so if I was running 
WEP, why would a criminal bother with mine?  ( I don't, but with some 
older machines it is a _lot_ easier to WEP. )

> I feel it's as basic to mention it as putting on your seatbelt, but 
> then again it's a big part of what I do for a living and I don't live 
> on property the size of a farm.  I hope I didn't sound like I was 
> preaching.

    Relative security is a big thing with me.  I will never understand why 
people are pathological about locking their house doors while their 
windows are open and/or unlocked.  Spending time/money to upgrade beyond 
WEP in a rural area is probably a waste.  So is spending a lot on digital 
security and then tossing your credit card bills in the recycling.

--
  David Hillman

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 23 08:56:11 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:56:11 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080123155611.RTOU14013.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> One of these, I helped set up, and 
> I know he complains that it doesn't work well in the living 
> room, yet I can use it a quarter mile away.

And I think that's an important point : both can be true !  You may find
that it doesn't work for you in the den; but the kid parked out on the road
with his laptop can find just the right spot and use your connection to
wreak whatever havoc he has in mind.  Then when the authorities come looking
for who was trying to hack into the Pentagon or whatever ...

Yeah, OK, that's alarmist and not likely; but it is possible.

Randall

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 23 08:56:34 2008
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>

SO what should us more mechanically inclined than technically inclined folks
do?  I thought setting up with a required key you have to enter was secure?
How are people getting pass this?

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
David Scheidt
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:18 AM
To: David Hillman
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost

On Jan 23, 2008 9:55 AM, David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> > And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting
hacked,
> > nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in
the
> > last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.
>
>     This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's ironic you mention it in a
> thread about signal boosting.
>
>     Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have
> significant chunks of property.  If your wireless signal doesn't extend
> beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge
> risk to using light-duty security?  No.

Wireless signals go a lot farther than you think.  With a directional
antenna, I can pick up -- and snoop, and use -- about a dozen wireless
networks, all of which are at least 800 feet from the house.  One of
these, I helped set up, and I know he complains that it doesn't work
well in the living room, yet I can use it a quarter mile away.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com
You are subscribed as rs1121 at earthlink.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 23 09:16:11 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:16:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com> 
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W40EEB78F6C2AA72363C179A3F0@phx.gbl>

For the mechanically inclined?  Hehe, well let's see, live underground, wrap
your house in concrete or paint your walls with RF-blocking paint (it
exists).

The attacks have to do with weaknesses in the way encryption algorithms are
used in the WEP standard (I'm not a math or crypto person).  You can google if
you'd like more info.

Each time some new research comes out, the amount of time it takes gets
smaller, it's almost down to minutes now.  A weaker key will not last as long
as a stronger key, but at this point it almost doesn't matter.

PJ

> From: rs1121 at earthlink.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:34 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
>
> SO what should us more mechanically inclined than technically inclined
folks
> do? I thought setting up with a required key you have to enter was secure?
> How are people getting pass this?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> David Scheidt
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:18 AM
> To: David Hillman
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
>
> On Jan 23, 2008 9:55 AM, David Hillman  wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>>> And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting
> hacked,
>>> nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in
> the
>>> last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.
>>
>> This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's ironic you mention it in a
>> thread about signal boosting.
>>
>> Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have
>> significant chunks of property. If your wireless signal doesn't extend
>> beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge
>> risk to using light-duty security? No.
>
> Wireless signals go a lot farther than you think. With a directional
> antenna, I can pick up -- and snoop, and use -- about a dozen wireless
> networks, all of which are at least 800 feet from the house. One of
> these, I helped set up, and I know he complains that it doesn't work
> well in the living room, yet I can use it a quarter mile away.
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> You are subscribed as rs1121 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 09:24:08 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:24:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801230824p142f062duf9d243ca1dce2893@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 23, 2008 10:56 AM, Ron Schmittou <rs1121 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> SO what should us more mechanically inclined than technically inclined folks
> do?  I thought setting up with a required key you have to enter was secure?
> How are people getting pass this?

There are two sorts of encryption used by wireless networks (Well, two
supported by the hardware,. there are other methods that work on top
of the network layer.)  These are WEP and WPA.  WEP is seriously
broken; you can get software that will crack it in minutes.  It is,
unfortunately, still in wide use, and the default for lots of routers.
 The newer standard is WPA.  it's much stonger encryption.  It's not
as widely used, because for some time, there was poor support for it.
However, anything sold with the Wi-Fi trademark on it in the last four
(almost five) years supports it.  There's no excuse to be using WEP
these days, given the prices of decent replacement hardware.

Make sure you use WPA, a decent shared passphrase, and you'll be okay.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From drew at DasRogges.com  Wed Jan 23 09:34:10 2008
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:34:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801230824p142f062duf9d243ca1dce2893@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
	<2400a5d40801230824p142f062duf9d243ca1dce2893@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47976C82.6070805@DasRogges.com>

I think you can also use MAC address filtering. This allows you
to allow connections only from those machines who's hardware
ethernet address is registered with the router.

David Scheidt wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2008 10:56 AM, Ron Schmittou <rs1121 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> SO what should us more mechanically inclined than technically inclined folks
>> do?  I thought setting up with a required key you have to enter was secure?
>> How are people getting pass this?
> 
> There are two sorts of encryption used by wireless networks (Well, two
> supported by the hardware,. there are other methods that work on top
> of the network layer.)  These are WEP and WPA.  WEP is seriously
> broken; you can get software that will crack it in minutes.  It is,
> unfortunately, still in wide use, and the default for lots of routers.
>  The newer standard is WPA.  it's much stonger encryption.  It's not
> as widely used, because for some time, there was poor support for it.
> However, anything sold with the Wi-Fi trademark on it in the last four
> (almost five) years supports it.  There's no excuse to be using WEP
> these days, given the prices of decent replacement hardware.
> 
> Make sure you use WPA, a decent shared passphrase, and you'll be okay.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 09:38:00 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:38:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <47976C82.6070805@DasRogges.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
	<2400a5d40801230824p142f062duf9d243ca1dce2893@mail.gmail.com>
	<47976C82.6070805@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801230838w38c52f0akbf51496726c023f1@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 23, 2008 11:34 AM, Drew Rogge <drew at dasrogges.com> wrote:
> I think you can also use MAC address filtering. This allows you
> to allow connections only from those machines who's hardware
> ethernet address is registered with the router.
>

It's really easy to fake MAC addresses.  It's a bunch of work to set
mac address filtering up, and keep the lists maintained, and it
*doesn't work*.  use WPA, or a higher level encryption protocol, like
IPSEC.  Don't screw around with non-working half measures.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Jan 23 09:50:28 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:50:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801230732ma8659ecr4135e31676fd24b6@mail.gmail.com
  >
References: <441250190801221720r4bd34ab0q62c31b5ff197c62a@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com>
	<441250190801221720r4bd34ab0q62c31b5ff197c62a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080123115028.00a56280@pop.east.cox.net>

At 10:32 AM 1/23/2008 -0500, Paul Parkanzky wrote:

>Just a note to let everybody know that I've been reading these responses
>with great interest.  I was **this** close to buying the Craftsman
>compressor in my original note, but decided to wait and collect some more
>opinions.  Now that I've done some more research, I am leaning more towards
>IR or Quincy.  I'm pretty impressed with Eaton's website too, so I will look
>into that.

Paul,

Don't sell the Craftsman too short.  But do be consious of the cost.  Their
quality may have changed over the years.  My dad has a 4hp (220V) 20 gal.
Craftsman compressor that he's had since I'd say the mid 60s.  It still
running.

Based on that, I purchased a Craftsman (oil lubed) 5hp 30 gal. compressor
back in about 90.  So mine is what 17 yrs old?  WOW, I can't believe it.
I must admitt that I have had a couple of problems with my compressor:

1. the motor casing is welded to plate that is allowed to move when the
compressor starts up.  It's on a pivot.  The motor has ripped off the
base plate 2 times.  I disassembled the motor and welded the case back onto
the mounting plate the 1st time.  The 2nd time, my welds didn't fail, the
case ripped in another spot.  So I disassembled and welded it back together.

2. the motor would not run.  I figured it was brushes.  I tore it down and
the brushes were still OK.  So I took it to a shop and had it checked.  They
found that the start contacts inside the motor had gotten dirty and couldn't
make.  I think that cost me about $70 to have fixed.

I've heard good things about IR and have one of their impact wrenches.  So
that wouldn't be a bad purchase.  

I do recommend trying to find a 100% duty cycle compressor.  Mine can't keep
up with my blast cabinet, and some of my air tools, like my DA.  Well maybe
it does keep up, but it can't surpass and shut down.  So after using it for
10 to 15 minutes, I'll stop and let it cools some.  I've also mounted a
large box fan next to the compressor to help cool it, as I've got it mounted
under my work bench.

Be careful about just looking at the HP specs.  The manufactures got into
an advertising war - mine is bigger than yours - by using starting current
to rate their compressors.  Don't get anything that isn't 220V.

You might want to take a quick read of my article. "Media Blasting
(Sandbblasting)"  http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/blasting/mediablast.html

As someone else said, "bigger is better", but then you have to watch the
pocket book also.  I don't regret my purchase and it has been worth every
penny I've spent on it.


John




John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From burdickm at mindspring.com  Wed Jan 23 10:34:15 2008
From: burdickm at mindspring.com (Michael Burdick)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:34:15 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
Message-ID: <888799.1201109655973.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

To bring in another recent thread, if you have Tivo and use it on a wireless network, WEP is your only security option.  WPA is not supported.

Mike
Durham, NC

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 23, 2008 11:24 AM
>
>....
>
>Make sure you use WPA, a decent shared passphrase, and you'll be okay.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 10:42:31 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:42:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <888799.1201109655973.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <888799.1201109655973.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801230942l2007c74cpf7bd4d556c180973@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 23, 2008 12:34 PM, Michael Burdick <burdickm at mindspring.com> wrote:
> To bring in another recent thread, if you have Tivo and use it on a wireless network, WEP is your only security option.  WPA is not supported.
>

That's not true.  Tivo has supported WPA since software version 8.1.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Jan 23 11:10:30 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:10:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <014701c85deb$3dc35b90$b94a12b0$@mele@usermail.com>

Are we talking the 64-bit WEP that left 14 bits at 0, with no shared key, or
the 128-bit with shared key?

PM



And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting hacked,
nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in the
last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.

PJ

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 11:20:13 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <-2051489343463455679@unknownmsgid>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<-2051489343463455679@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801231020p7d56f8e5nac95745b6163be0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 23, 2008 1:10 PM, Paul Mele <paul.mele at usermail.com> wrote:
> Are we talking the 64-bit WEP that left 14 bits at 0, with no shared key, or
> the 128-bit with shared key?
>

Either.  It's fundamentally borked; you'd have to try really, really
hard to make a worse security system.  There's no reason to use WEP,
unless you have a handful of embedded legacy devices that can't use
WPA, in which case, you need to be aware that you're broadcasting in
the clear.  That might, or might not, be a problem.  If there is data
that needs to be secured, though, use wires or WPA.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 23 11:30:13 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:30:13 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Air Compressors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080123115028.00a56280@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <441250190801221720r4bd34ab0q62c31b5ff197c62a@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220801211445r2b3f1cbcua7c7bffe1db1b062@mail.gmail.com><441250190801221720r4bd34ab0q62c31b5ff197c62a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20080123115028.00a56280@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <00b701c85ded$fec058f0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Don't sell the Craftsman too short.  But do be consious of 
> the cost.  Their
> quality may have changed over the years.

IMO it's a mistake to regard "Craftsman" as a compressor maker at all.
Sears resells compressors made by several people, including IR and the same
folks that make Campbell-Hausfeld.  IOW the quality of a particular
"Craftsman" compressor may be substantially different than the one sitting
next to it.

> I  tore it down and
> the brushes were still OK. 

Brushes ?  What kind of motor was it ?  I've not seen a AC-powered
compressor made in the last 100 years or so that didn't use an induction
(brushless) motor.

> They found that the start contacts inside the motor had gotten 
> dirty and couldn't
> make.

Used to be a very common problem with induction motors.  I even took a
repair class once that consisted mostly of cleaning & repairing start
contacts in AC induction motors.  But I don't believe the old inertial start
switches are used much any more.

> Be careful about just looking at the HP specs. 

I agree; to the point that I fully ignore the "hp" spec.  What's important
is how much air it puts out, so that (and duty cycle) is really the only
thing to look at.

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Jan 23 12:36:37 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:36:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
References: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<E1JHX93-00038F-OX@iglou.com><2400a5d40801222026q1ba8ac9dq7ab1fc6f0efd9f9f@mail.gmail.com>
	<019b01c85d7b$4d7da6a0$6801a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <006001c85df7$4569dc50$6e01a8c0@KARL>

I found out that I have a severe case of obsession.  The GM service records 
(obtained from a local GM dealer's computer here) track the mileage at 
services through the three years, and it progresses perfectly.

The fuel usage discrepancy may be due to the fact that some dash instrument 
module (dunno know more than that - I'd have to check the part numbers on 
the service record) was exchanged last September.  They send them in to a 
central GM service center for "rebuild", and it could well be that on the 
one installed the fuel usage wasn't zeroed out since testing, or the last 
owner of the module, etc.

Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions.  Now I can just appreciate how 
nice it is to have a (relatively) new truck !!

Karl


> And please let us know what you find so the rest of us will know what to
> watch out for.
>
> Mike Frerichs 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Jan 23 12:41:00 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:41:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer
In-Reply-To: <006001c85df7$4569dc50$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <001401c85d6e$c204a850$6e01a8c0@KARL><E1JHX93-00038F-OX@iglou.com><2400a5d40801222026q1ba8ac9dq7ab1fc6f0efd9f9f@mail.gmail.com><019b01c85d7b$4d7da6a0$6801a8c0@proteus457>
	<006001c85df7$4569dc50$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <5CD9F0F307214CB59CCF714147F5EDB3@OwnerPC>

Karl, et all

GM had problems with their electronic 'instrument cluster' and has even 
issued a recall sorta of..  from about 2000 to present the chevy and gm 
trucks, yukons, tahoes had speedometer and other gauges fail and the whole 
cluster was usually replaced.  In my case I had to send them the odometer 
reading and the new panel came set at that mileage from the maker.  could be 
as you say, the computer wasn't reset properly... I'd trust the service 
records...

John
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: "Mike Frerichs" <shoptalk2 at centipi.com>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Yukon Denali fuel totalizer


>I found out that I have a severe case of obsession.  The GM service records
> (obtained from a local GM dealer's computer here) track the mileage at
> services through the three years, and it progresses perfectly.
>
> The fuel usage discrepancy may be due to the fact that some dash 
> instrument
> module (dunno know more than that - I'd have to check the part numbers on
> the service record) was exchanged last September.  They send them in to a
> central GM service center for "rebuild", and it could well be that on the
> one installed the fuel usage wasn't zeroed out since testing, or the last
> owner of the module, etc.
>
> Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions.  Now I can just appreciate how
> nice it is to have a (relatively) new truck !!
>
> Karl
>
>
>> And please let us know what you find so the rest of us will know what to
>> watch out for.
>>
>> Mike Frerichs
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mattw at webtripper.com  Wed Jan 23 13:21:28 2008
From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:21:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <47976C82.6070805@DasRogges.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<2400a5d40801230824p142f062duf9d243ca1dce2893@mail.gmail.com>
	<47976C82.6070805@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <200801231421.28577.mattw@webtripper.com>

On Wednesday 23 January 2008 10:34, Drew Rogge wrote:
> I think you can also use MAC address filtering. This allows you
> to allow connections only from those machines who's hardware
> ethernet address is registered with the router.

It is absolutely trivial to spoof MAC address's.
In minutes I can set up one machine to spoof the MAC's of any number of 
machines, appearing to be a whole network.
This option should not even be allowed, as it provides a false sense of 
security.
It's not even as good as locking a screen door.

Matt Wehland

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Jan 23 13:28:22 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:28:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231528050.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, Ron Schmittou wrote:
> SO what should us more mechanically inclined than technically inclined 
> folks do?  I thought setting up with a required key you have to enter 
> was secure? How are people getting pass this?

I you want to be no-fooling secure, don't use wireless.

Mark

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Wed Jan 23 13:43:16 2008
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:43:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231528050.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231528050.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>

Or just don't run horribly insecure operating systems and  
applications and don't communicate sensitive data via the network in  
plain text.  I've only read about half of this thread, so forgive me  
if someone's already mentioned this, but I fail to see the salient  
difference between running an open network at home is from being on  
free wifi at a coffee shop or the like.  Am I missing something?

-vin

On Jan 23, 2008, at 3:28 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
>
> I you want to be no-fooling secure, don't use wireless.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
>

--
TE Motorworks, Inc.
Post Industrial Laboratory
215-426-1447

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Jan 23 14:03:37 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:03:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231528050.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231559450.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, Vin Marshall wrote:
> Or just don't run horribly insecure operating systems and applications 
> and don't communicate sensitive data via the network in plain text. 
> I've only read about half of this thread, so forgive me if someone's 
> already mentioned this, but I fail to see the salient difference between 
> running an open network at home is from being on free wifi at a coffee 
> shop or the like.  Am I missing something?

I think you might be missing something...

The "danger" is that in addition to someone gaining access to your 
machine, someone getting onto your network at home is very likely using it 
to get out to the internet via your connection to an ISP.  So if they're 
sending spam, uploading child porn, sending terrorist threats, or whatever 
you possibly are responsible for their actions.

This isn't a problem if you aren't the one providing the network.

I don't know that its been tested in court yet however.  AFAIK, there's 
no standard "good enough" protection that absolves you of 
responsibility... A reasonable person might conclude that wide open 
wireless in a rural setting is good enough.  They might conclude its not.

For me... The hassles of securing stuff outweigh the benefits at my rural 
location.  I might eventually change my mind, but I'm pretty stubborn.

:-)

Mark

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Wed Jan 23 14:35:06 2008
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:35:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231559450.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231528050.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231559450.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <E711BEA0-11D0-432A-8ECB-666DB8AF7699@te-motorworks.com>

Mark,

I follow your reasoning there.  I'm not that interested in what other  
people choose to do (and would notice the otherwise unaccounted for  
traffic volume on my network were they doing any meaningful volume of  
it), so I was only looking at this in terms of securing my own  
machine and data.

Realisticall, this phantasm that everyone's worried about on their  
network will have to be fairly physically proximate, even with the  
range extending antennas[1].  My point being that if there is someone  
out there doing something it would terrify you to have associated  
with your ISP account, you've already got something of a problem in  
that they probably live next door to you.

Anyway, while everyone's points are clearly valid, especially from a  
technical perspective, I'm just questioning where the line really  
falls here between the actual versus imagined risks and am keeping in  
mind the general benefit of being able to find unsecured wifi service  
when you are out and about.

For this reason, I've left my wifi network unsecured, even though I  
live in the city.  To date, the garbage tumbleweeds continue to cause  
me far more aggravation than any network misuse issues.

-vin

[1] and with a directional antenna I suppose they'd be easy to locate.



On Jan 23, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Mark Andy wrote:
>
> I think you might be missing something...
>
> The "danger" is that in addition to someone gaining access to your
> machine, someone getting onto your network at home is very likely  
> using it
> to get out to the internet via your connection to an ISP.  So if  
> they're
> sending spam, uploading child porn, sending terrorist threats, or  
> whatever
> you possibly are responsible for their actions.
>
> This isn't a problem if you aren't the one providing the network.
>
> I don't know that its been tested in court yet however.  AFAIK,  
> there's
> no standard "good enough" protection that absolves you of
> responsibility... A reasonable person might conclude that wide open
> wireless in a rural setting is good enough.  They might conclude  
> its not.
>
> For me... The hassles of securing stuff outweigh the benefits at my  
> rural
> location.  I might eventually change my mind, but I'm pretty stubborn.
>
> :-)
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

--
TE Motorworks, Inc.
Post Industrial Laboratory
215-426-1447

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 14:56:48 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:56:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <47975A42.5090700@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <577105.64851.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

--- Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
(snip)
> We installed NetStumbler;  a wi-fi sniffing utility with many and
> varied uses that identifies all available wireless networks.  He got a
> strong signal at the end of my 200' driveway, and could still connect down
> the road at probably 500' away!  On a 5 mile drive through somewhat rural
> country, it identified 13 networks;  only one appeared to be secured.
(snip)

One of the intriguing things about this utility...Even if you're not
broadcasting your SSID, it can identify it. It can also tell what
type of encryption is being used (if any). Based on what I know about 
security, even the latest one is capable of a brute force attack.
I saw one report of being able to get into routers that use that
and mac address lists too. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From jem at milleredp.com  Wed Jan 23 14:57:43 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:57:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <014701c85deb$3dc35b90$b94a12b0$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<014701c85deb$3dc35b90$b94a12b0$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <4797B857.1040907@milleredp.com>

Paul Mele wrote:
> Are we talking the 64-bit WEP that left 14 bits at 0, with no shared key, or
> the 128-bit with shared key?

The former is as good as leaving your front door unlocked, the latter's 
as good as a locked front door with the key under the mat.

John.

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Jan 23 15:11:38 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:11:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <577105.64851.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <577105.64851.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <27520.198.103.221.52.1201126298.squirrel@new.host.name>

> One of the intriguing things about this utility...Even if you're not
> broadcasting your SSID, it can identify it. It can also tell what
> type of encryption is being used (if any). Based on what I know about
> security, even the latest one is capable of a brute force attack.

  It should be noted that the reason WEP has been broken is not a brute
force attack, it is a "'sploit".

  Brute forcing a 128 bit key is still extremely extremely unlikely,
especially if the information you are protecting isn't worth the time of
any great international power. ;>

From jem at milleredp.com  Wed Jan 23 15:13:25 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:13:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com> <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231528050.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <4797BC05.9040301@milleredp.com>

> Or just don't run horribly insecure operating systems and  
> applications and don't communicate sensitive data via the network in  
> plain text.  I've only read about half of this thread, so forgive me  
> if someone's already mentioned this, but I fail to see the salient  
> difference between running an open network at home is from being on  
> free wifi at a coffee shop or the like.  Am I missing something?

In a coffee shop it's someone else's problem what gets onto the network 
and what goes out from it.

In your environment, if your neighbors or someone wardriving past your 
neck of the woods decides to poach on your 'net, maybe they're benign 
and the worst that'll happen is that they'll eat some of your bandwidth. 
  Maybe they're not so benign and they go after machines on your 
network, or maybe they'll go after someone else's machines over your 
connection or otherwise do something that at the VERY LEAST forces your 
ISP to cut you off for a while and maybe gets your IPs on a bunch of 
spam/malware blacklists.

If you want to see the outcome of a commercial failure to use 
appropriate wireless security, go google 'tjx breach' or 'tjx penetration'.

John.

From mjw at littlegrassy.com  Wed Jan 23 15:37:44 2008
From: mjw at littlegrassy.com (Matt Wehland)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:37:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0801231528050.29412@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<EC553F30-A446-4F55-A722-62EC4D6D44CD@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <200801231637.44401.mjw@littlegrassy.com>

On Wednesday 23 January 2008 14:43, Vin Marshall wrote:
>, but I fail to see the salient
> difference between running an open network at home is from being on
> free wifi at a coffee shop or the like.  Am I missing something?
> -vin

Yes.

For me the big difference is that at the wireless cafe I am just on the WILD 
Internet, and I know it.
At home I may be doing file sharing and such with other computers on my 
network.
If you only have a single computer with no other devices then this isn't much 
of an issue.

Also using an AP in a cafe does not open one up to liability for misuse of 
Internet service vs. somebody sending death threats or running a CC or 
Nigerian scam from your internet connection.
What about kiddie porn?
Anyone with half a lick of sense would try to do something this illegal (being 
hunted, not just illegal) from somebody else's house, maybe it will be yours.

Remember the RIAA lawsuits for piracy.
What if the downloads had come from your network?
Do you want to have to fight this in court?

Or would you rather take 5 minutes and set up your wireless AP correctly.
If you have just one computer it takes no time, if you have several computers 
just burn the key to CD or toss it on a USB stick and take it around to every 
computer and update them.

Matt Wehland

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 15:42:11 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:42:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <27520.198.103.221.52.1201126298.squirrel@new.host.name>
References: <577105.64851.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<27520.198.103.221.52.1201126298.squirrel@new.host.name>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801231442q7bacffe6xdd19c87f055e8876@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 23, 2008 5:11 PM, Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com> wrote:
> > One of the intriguing things about this utility...Even if you're not
> > broadcasting your SSID, it can identify it. It can also tell what
> > type of encryption is being used (if any). Based on what I know about
> > security, even the latest one is capable of a brute force attack.
>
>   It should be noted that the reason WEP has been broken is not a brute
> force attack, it is a "'sploit".
>
>   Brute forcing a 128 bit key is still extremely extremely unlikely,
> especially if the information you are protecting isn't worth the time of
> any great international power. ;>

WPA using PSK (pre-shared key)  is vulnerable to brute force attacks
on the passphrase.  This can be done off-line; the attacker can use
saved packjets.  The solution is to use good passphrases, and change
them regularly.  (I doubt it's a problem, unless someone has reason to
be after your data.)


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Jan 23 15:46:11 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:46:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801231442q7bacffe6xdd19c87f055e8876@mail.gmail.com>
References: <577105.64851.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<27520.198.103.221.52.1201126298.squirrel@new.host.name>
	<2400a5d40801231442q7bacffe6xdd19c87f055e8876@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37848.198.103.152.52.1201128371.squirrel@new.host.name>

> WPA using PSK (pre-shared key)  is vulnerable to brute force attacks
> on the passphrase.  This can be done off-line; the attacker can use
> saved packjets.  The solution is to use good passphrases, and change
> them regularly.  (I doubt it's a problem, unless someone has reason to
> be after your data.)

  That's true, I guess you'll never have 2^128 possible keys if they all
started out from "common phrases", which there aren't 2^128 of...

  I guess that can be solved by choosing a password with "a lot of
entropy" but that probably isn't common in practice...

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 15:54:31 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:54:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <37848.198.103.152.52.1201128371.squirrel@new.host.name>
References: <577105.64851.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<27520.198.103.221.52.1201126298.squirrel@new.host.name>
	<2400a5d40801231442q7bacffe6xdd19c87f055e8876@mail.gmail.com>
	<37848.198.103.152.52.1201128371.squirrel@new.host.name>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801231454s122d3a3eo61528e730bb05b9@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 23, 2008 5:46 PM, Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com> wrote:
>

>   I guess that can be solved by choosing a password with "a lot of
> entropy" but that probably isn't common in practice...
>

Many network configuration tools can be set to pick a random key.
Since you've only got to enter it once per machine, it's not that hard
to use that.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From edvs at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 16:30:24 2008
From: edvs at yahoo.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:30:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 55k btu radiant kerosene heater?
In-Reply-To: <041c01c85d7a$feb70660$fc251320$@net>
Message-ID: <685639.11472.qm@web51003.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

It is a private airport, so I guess he has access to
small quantities..... Thanks for the answer.... I was
convinced he was (is) crazy.
Ed


--- Ron Schmittou <rs1121 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Pretty close to the same stuff - Odor will be a bit
> stronger.  Must be an
> awfully small airport - mot have it in the Big tanks
> - I have not heard of
> outdated fuel, but I guess it's possible - I have
> seen water or contaminated
> fuel.
> 
> Try it and see - it won't harm the heater.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
>
shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
>
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net]
> On Behalf Of
> Ed Van Scoy
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:47 PM
> To: Karl Vacek; Mark Andy; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 55k btu radiant kerosene
> heater?
> 
> I have the same model kerosene heater. Works great
> but
> I'm not happy with the fact that kerosene is $7 a
> gallon here (in bulk.....$10 for gallon cans at Home
> Depot) soooo.... I have a friend that claims he
> burns
> jet fuel in his. He lives next to an airport and
> says
> he buys "outdated" fuel cheap, and it works fine. I
> am
> leary of trying jet fuel, anybody had any experience
> with it in a heater???
> Ed
> 
> 
>  
> --- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
> 
> > If you want to fix your existing heater,
> > Reddy-Heater is part of Desa - in 
> > Kentucky as I recall - and should have parts. 
> > They're set up for DIY'ers - 
> > decent tech support is available by phone and
> > they'll mail parts right out.
> > 
> > Karl
> > 
> > 
> > > So my forced air kerosene heater has finally
> > decided to stop working...
> > > For a couple years now I've kept the cover loose
> > so that I could slide it
> > > out of the way and spin the fan by hand to
> "loosen
> > it up" when it wouldn't
> > > start.  Now I can still do that, but the fan
> never
> > seems to really spin up
> > > to full speed and eventually kicks the breaker
> on
> > the unit (Reddy heater,
> > > 55k btu, if you have ideas on how to make it
> work.
> >  I can see the spark,
> > > so I know its not that).
> > >
> > > Anyway, I was looking at other options and ran
> > across this one at lowes:
> > >
> >
>
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=239878-57645-P
> T55SS&lpage=none
> > >
> > > Anyone know anything about this type of heater? 
> > The btu output is much
> > > higher than other radiant kerosene heaters I've
> > seen and the promise of
> > > less noise would be welcome...
> > >
> > > Googling ProTemp Sun-Stream got me nowwhere.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Mark
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > 
> > You are subscribed as edvs at yahoo.com
> > 
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> > 
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> > 
> > http://www.team.net/archive
> > 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> You are subscribed as rs1121 at earthlink.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as edvs at yahoo.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Jan 23 16:52:25 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:52:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <4797B857.1040907@milleredp.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net><479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>
	<005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2><BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl><014701c85deb$3dc35b90$b94a12b0$@mele@usermail.com>
	<4797B857.1040907@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <00db01c85e1b$016763a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> The former is as good as leaving your front door unlocked, 
> the latter's 
> as good as a locked front door with the key under the mat.

That's a bit harsh, IMO ... but only because anyone with a lockpick can go
through the typical front door lock about as quickly as I can get my keys
out and find the right one.

Somewhere I've got a video of an expert showing how to pick locks; he
demonstrates picking the lock more than once for every sentence he says.

Randall

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Jan 23 17:32:33 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:32:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4797DCA1.1050305@hornesystemstx.com>

David,

Interesting you bring that up! I have 3 wireless routers, two in my 
house on different networks and one in my shop on one of the house 
networks, all wide open. The nearest place off my property is 700', so I 
have no real concern about anyone hooking into my network.

I do, however, run a program on a couple of computers - one on each 
network that logs connections. I have never seen any connection that I 
didn't know about.

I've also set up a couple multi-access point networks for remote 
neighborhoods where I installed 600mw radios with highly directional 
antennae to cover the whole area. These installations are farther out in 
the sticks than I am, the nearest off-premises road is over a mile away, 
and that one dead ends into their property. These systems are also wide 
open.

As you say, it would be a different situation if there was a closer 
proximity to the public road!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David Hillman:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>   
>> And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting hacked,
>> nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in the
>> last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.
>>     
>
>     This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's ironic you mention it in a 
> thread about signal boosting.
>
>     Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have 
> significant chunks of property.  If your wireless signal doesn't extend 
> beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge 
> risk to using light-duty security?  No.
>
>     If you live in an apartment building, yeah, lock it down.
>
> --
>   David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From pete at partnercomm.com  Wed Jan 23 17:44:42 2008
From: pete at partnercomm.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:44:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0801231923300.16919-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, Ron Schmittou wrote:

> SO what should us more mechanically inclined than technically inclined
> folks do?  I thought setting up with a required key you have to enter
> was secure? How are people getting pass this?

There are three different "standard" encryption techniques in today's 
consumer-grade wi-fi access points: WEP, WPA and WPA2.

WEP, as it has been discussed here, is pretty transparent. It is useful 
simply to keep the casual knob-twister out.

WPA is also crackable. It just takes more effort.

WPA2 has trouble, but I'm not sure I've yet read of any cracks of a 
properly-secured WPA2 network. There are varying measurements of 
"properly-secured" - some require SecureID tokens, etc.

Fundamentally, there are two different related concerns that anyone 
running a wireless network should have in mind. One is how much you need 
to protect the data you're passing through the air, the other is how hard 
you need to make it to get onto *your* network (to go somewhere else).

If you're concerned about the data payload being captured, then make it as
secure as you practically can - use WPA2 - or don't use wireless at all. 
It is not unreasonable to have one wireless network for your TiVo (or 
other devices that can't/won't go to the max on security) - or to simply 
run wires (if possible).

I see no trouble with using WEP in many lower-density environments,
particularly if there are other more easy-pickings for someone who is
looking to find a wifi network for Internet access (for whatever
purposes). Personally, I run a single 64-bit WEP-encrypted WLAN at my
house (in my lower-density neighborhood), and make sure that the data that
may flow through the air is encrypted at layer 3 (via SSL or
SSH), rather than rely on the data-link (layer 2) protection.

If you have gone to reasonable lengths to close your network to the
outside, I would expect it to be pretty difficult to an entity to find you
liable for whatever havoc an outside party could wreak (were said outside
party to break into and use your network connection to wreak said havoc). 
IANAL, YMMV.

By the way, if real data-grade wiring is impractical, have a look into
HPNA 2.0 (10Mbit over almost any telephone-ish copper pair) or
data-over-powerlines (like HomePlug, which is up to "85 Mbit"). Both are
accomplished with equipment that isn't too expensive (well under $50 for 
at least two nodes). Then again.. I guess someone could hook *his* HPNA 
gear to the NID (if it is outside your house) or tap into your electrical 
system...

-Peter

--
Peter Murray (N3IXY)
Oak Hill, VA

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 23 18:00:13 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:00:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <4797DCA1.1050305@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>  <005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2>
	<BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl>
	<20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com> 
	<4797DCA1.1050305@hornesystemstx.com> 
Message-ID: <BAY108-W64239028EF4C1958851F99A380@phx.gbl>

I hope there comes a time when the majority of people that are taking of
advantage of new technologies out there, give some thought to how they will
affect their lives, and take the extra precautions to make sure they aren't
leaving themselves vulnerable.

Security is a mindset, and these days it certainly doesn't hurt to think that
way about everything.  It makes me wonder if leaving your network wide open
means you've already assumed that most likley nothing bad will happen and it
won't be you that gets duped whether it be that link in an email you just
received or posting personal information on your myspace page...

WPA encryption won't do any good if I already have access to your machine via
some other attack and I'm reading the key directly off your hard drive.

PJ

> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:32:33 -0600
> From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
> To: hillman at planet-torque.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
>
> David,
>
> Interesting you bring that up! I have 3 wireless routers, two in my
> house on different networks and one in my shop on one of the house
> networks, all wide open. The nearest place off my property is 700', so I
> have no real concern about anyone hooking into my network.
>
> I do, however, run a program on a couple of computers - one on each
> network that logs connections. I have never seen any connection that I
> didn't know about.
>
> I've also set up a couple multi-access point networks for remote
> neighborhoods where I installed 600mw radios with highly directional
> antennae to cover the whole area. These installations are farther out in
> the sticks than I am, the nearest off-premises road is over a mile away,
> and that one dead ends into their property. These systems are also wide
> open.
>
> As you say, it would be a different situation if there was a closer
> proximity to the public road!
>
> Peace,
> Pat
>
> Thusly spake David Hillman:
>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
>>
>>> And while we're briefly on the topic of wireless networks getting hacked,
>>> nobody should be using WEP encryption anymore, attacks have come out in
the
>>> last year or so that are making it almost trivial to break.
>>>
>>
>> This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's ironic you mention it in a
>> thread about signal boosting.
>>
>> Many, if not most, of the people on this list appear to have
>> significant chunks of property. If your wireless signal doesn't extend
>> beyond your house, nevermind off your property, is there really a huge
>> risk to using light-duty security? No.
>>
>> If you live in an apartment building, yeah, lock it down.
>>
>> --
>> David Hillman
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems
> (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your
"fix".

From bill at gingerich.us  Wed Jan 23 18:17:33 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:17:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net><479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>
	<005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2><BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl><20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com><2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
Message-ID: <004501c85e26$e60080e0$64dea8c0@shack2>

You could run cat 5 wires to all your computers.  It's faster than wireless,
and more secure.  Yes, pulling wire can be a pain.  I hardwire all my
network connections.  I have wireless capability, but keep the wireless
radio turned off and pass worded.  It's much harder for the average hacker
to get into a wired system.

Bill G
OKC




SO what should us more mechanically inclined than technically inclined folks
do?  I thought setting up with a required key you have to enter was secure?
How are people getting pass this?

From mbarre at juno.com  Wed Jan 23 18:47:40 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:47:40 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] kerosene heater - discount fuel
Message-ID: <20080123.204740.824.3@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Most fuel farms, even small ones, generate what is often called "sump fuel".
There is typically a low point where water & sediment will collect and this is
typically drawn out periodically.  Changing filters can also generate fuel
with sediment when the filter vessel is drained.  In some cases this is
disposed of by paying someone to haul off the "hazardous waste."
I have heard that some folks will gladly take this off their hands and
something as simple as decanting or a filter can render the recovered fuel
usable for many things ranging from burning brush piles, kerosene heaters, or
even running through the occasional Cummins diesel.
MB


-- Ed Van Scoy <edvs at yahoo.com> wrote:
It is a private airport, so I guess he has access to
small quantities..... Thanks for the answer.... I was
convinced he was (is) crazy.
Ed


--- Ron Schmittou <rs1121 at earthlink.net> wrote:


> - I have not heard of
> outdated fuel, but I guess it's possible - I have
> seen water or contaminated
> fuel.
>
> Try it and see - it won't harm the heater.

_____________________________________________________________
Click to compare life insurance rates.  Great rates, quick and easy.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3m2vyNzB69M1tqhntwsTVrZxPDx
FJ7KaXRsj3Fmv2xU8U9rJ/

From jem at milleredp.com  Wed Jan 23 21:49:07 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:49:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wireless router - signal boost
In-Reply-To: <004501c85e26$e60080e0$64dea8c0@shack2>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20080121153846.02876480@incoming.verizon.net><BAY108-W146C4BC2BAD359F75B4439A3E0@phx.gbl><Pine.LNX.4.64.0801220941340.13299@mephisto.banklogic.net><479604F6.7020202@xxiii.com>
	<005a01c85d73$53258850$64dea8c0@shack2><BAY108-W2364A2E6498D4C87D04D3A9A3F0@phx.gbl><20080123095159.I76209@itonami.pair.com><2400a5d40801230717u553ac185t6eba0e98904a856@mail.gmail.com>
	<04cd01c85dd8$87e48a40$97ad9ec0$@net>
	<004501c85e26$e60080e0$64dea8c0@shack2>
Message-ID: <479818C3.7090102@milleredp.com>

> You could run cat 5 wires to all your computers.  It's faster than wireless,
> and more secure.  Yes, pulling wire can be a pain.  I hardwire all my
> network connections.  I have wireless capability, but keep the wireless
> radio turned off and pass worded.  It's much harder for the average hacker
> to get into a wired system.

Oh, unquestionably true.  When we did our remodel I put piles and piles 
of Cat5E wire in the walls all home-run back to some patch panels in the 
attic.  For machines that don't move around, works great.

But one gets rather used to being able to cart one's laptop out to the 
breakfast table, into the potty, etc.

John.

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jan 24 10:00:02 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:00:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
Message-ID: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does any one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't have to be new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 475.00 and may be this is what I will end up spending.
   
  Thanks for the help.


Frank V.
  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From gpd4 at juno.com  Thu Jan 24 10:03:08 2008
From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:03:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
Message-ID: <20080124.120308.4680.1.gpd4@juno.com>

Voltage/phase  and shaft size requirements?  Any other constraints?
GPD4

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:00:02 -0800 (PST) Frank Vantacich
<rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> writes:
> I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does 
> any one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't 
> have to be new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 
> 475.00 and may be this is what I will end up spending.
>    
>   Thanks for the help.
> 
> 
> Frank V.
>   rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Thu Jan 24 10:16:58 2008
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:16:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080124171658.GA84080@sackheads.org>

On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 09:00:02AM -0800, Frank Vantacich wrote:
> I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  
> Does any one know of a good source for something like this, it 
> doesn't have to be new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 
> 375.00 to 475.00 and may be this is what I will end up spending.

$300-$500 is about the going price for a new 5HP motor.  Check
your local auction listings for machine tools that might have a 
motor you could salvage.  Normally, I'd say this might yield a
bargain but with the price of copper going through the roof, I
wouldn't be surprised if salvagers show up to bid on them just 
to extract the copper windings.

For a new motor, you might check www.northerntools.com.  I recall
they sell compressor-type motors in the 5HP range but I can't 
vouch for their quality.  McMaster Carr lists a 5hp 3ph motor
for $285 (part no 6136K16).  

Jimmie

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jan 24 10:18:10 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:18:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <20080124.120308.4680.1.gpd4@juno.com>
Message-ID: <519974.97488.qm@web81310.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sorry George, kind of vague huh.  Single phase, 220v, size of shaft doesn't matter we'll make it work.  No other constraints.

George P Dausch IV <gpd4 at juno.com> wrote:  Voltage/phase and shaft size requirements? Any other constraints?
GPD4

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:00:02 -0800 (PST) Frank Vantacich
writes:
> I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe. Does 
> any one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't 
> have to be new. So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 
> 475.00 and may be this is what I will end up spending.
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> 
> 
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> 




Frank V.
  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Jan 24 10:27:43 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:27:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <20080124171658.GA84080@sackheads.org>
References: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20080124171658.GA84080@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <01c701c85eae$6de65070$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I recall
> they sell compressor-type motors in the 5HP range

Since we've mentioned compressor-type electric motors; what is the effect of
the "compressor" rating on continuous power output?  I assume they are
designed to handle a high peak-to-average power ratio (because of the
pulsating nature of the compressor load), but is the rated power for the
peak or the average ?  

IOW, can a "5hp compressor" motor drive a 5hp continuous load without
overheating ?

Randall

From crothfuss at coastalnet.com  Thu Jan 24 10:33:03 2008
From: crothfuss at coastalnet.com (crothfuss at coastalnet.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:33:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing rust stains from concrete?
Message-ID: <790689.1201195983938.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

May have been covered before, but does anybody have a solution to get rust stains
off concrete?  We've tried the steam cleaner, muriatic acid, and all the other
nasty solvents we have in the shop.  Nothing will touch these.  

   Any help will be appreciated.

Chuck

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jan 24 10:34:08 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:34:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <20080124171658.GA84080@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <504389.39670.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Good suggestion Jimmie on McMaster Carr.

Jimmie Mayfield <mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org> wrote:  On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 09:00:02AM -0800, Frank Vantacich wrote:
> I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe. 
> Does any one know of a good source for something like this, it 
> doesn't have to be new. So far I've seen prices ranging from 
> 375.00 to 475.00 and may be this is what I will end up spending.

$300-$500 is about the going price for a new 5HP motor. Check
your local auction listings for machine tools that might have a 
motor you could salvage. Normally, I'd say this might yield a
bargain but with the price of copper going through the roof, I
wouldn't be surprised if salvagers show up to bid on them just 
to extract the copper windings.

For a new motor, you might check www.northerntools.com. I recall
they sell compressor-type motors in the 5HP range but I can't 
vouch for their quality. McMaster Carr lists a 5hp 3ph motor
for $285 (part no 6136K16). 

Jimmie
You are subscribed as rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive



Frank V.
  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 10:49:59 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:49:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing rust stains from concrete?
In-Reply-To: <790689.1201195983938.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <790689.1201195983938.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <bdde53220801240949yb4365f6tba36caa717abfb87@mail.gmail.com>

You might want to try:

http://www.theruststore.com/Concrete-Rust-Remover-P66C29.aspx

-Paul
On Jan 24, 2008 12:33 PM, <crothfuss at coastalnet.com> wrote:

> May have been covered before, but does anybody have a solution to get rust
> stains
> off concrete?  We've tried the steam cleaner, muriatic acid, and all the
> other
> nasty solvents we have in the shop.  Nothing will touch these.
>
>   Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Chuck

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 11:33:09 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:33:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing rust stains from concrete?
In-Reply-To: <FA8402F58FF1407DB297D3A4544786B8@OwnerPC>
References: <790689.1201195983938.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<bdde53220801240949yb4365f6tba36caa717abfb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<FA8402F58FF1407DB297D3A4544786B8@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <bdde53220801241033p1845c22r33cd27cabf0d3237@mail.gmail.com>

Nothing first hand, I'm afraid.  I got the link from another online forum
where it was discussed.  Somebody there said that they had great success
with it.

Somebody else recommended a product called Ecotec that is advertised to
clean rust from concrete based on their positive experience.

I'm sorry that I don't have anything direct for you.

-Paul
On Jan 24, 2008 1:23 PM, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:

> Paul,
> have you tried this product before ???  results ??
>
> I've got an area in front of my shop where I do all my welding and
> grinding... pressure washer won't touch it... it laughs at muriatic
> acid...
> This sounds like it might work.. but I love testimonials from believable
> sources
>
> tell me what you know
>
> thanks
> john
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Parkanzky" <parkanzky at gmail.com>
> To: <crothfuss at coastalnet.com>
> Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Removing rust stains from concrete?
>
>
> > You might want to try:
> >
> > http://www.theruststore.com/Concrete-Rust-Remover-P66C29.aspx
> >
> > -Paul
> > On Jan 24, 2008 12:33 PM, <crothfuss at coastalnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> May have been covered before, but does anybody have a solution to get
> >> rust
> >> stains
> >> off concrete?  We've tried the steam cleaner, muriatic acid, and all
> the
> >> other
> >> nasty solvents we have in the shop.  Nothing will touch these.
> >>
> >>   Any help will be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Chuck
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>  >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> > http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Jan 24 11:44:14 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:44:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing rust stains from concrete?
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801241033p1845c22r33cd27cabf0d3237@mail.gmail.com>
References: <790689.1201195983938.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<bdde53220801240949yb4365f6tba36caa717abfb87@mail.gmail.com>
	<FA8402F58FF1407DB297D3A4544786B8@OwnerPC>
	<bdde53220801241033p1845c22r33cd27cabf0d3237@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4798DC7E.5040200@dimebank.com>

We've been using Whink

http://www.whink.com/rust_stain_remover.htm

at our cabin for years now - it's the only thing that reliably gets out 
the rust stains caused by the iron in our well without requiring 
respiratory protection during use. It's mostly dilute hydrofluoric acid 
(if you read the label and MSDS).

They appear to have a bunch of related products; it appears that

http://www.whink.com/rust_and_iron_stain_remover.htm

might be a better choice for concrete.

From smarc at smarc.net  Thu Jan 24 12:27:35 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:27:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4798E6A7.7050407@smarc.net>

I've always had real good luck getting replacement motors at Grainger ( 
http://www.grainger.com ) NFI...

Marc



Frank Vantacich wrote:
> I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does any one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't have to be new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 475.00 and may be this is what I will end up spending.
>    
>   Thanks for the help.

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 13:37:19 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:37:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <4798E6A7.7050407@smarc.net>
References: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4798E6A7.7050407@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360801241237r240d365fu62eec3254020ebea@mail.gmail.com>

*HVAC contractors are a good source of used pulley-type motors . . they pull
them out of obsolete equipment but can't stand to throw them away . . Don't
phone and ask the office girl . . walk in the back door and ask around. *

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Jan 24 13:56:52 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:56:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080124155652.00a2cb20@pop.east.cox.net>

At 09:00 AM 1/24/2008 -0800, Frank Vantacich wrote:

>I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does 
>any one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't have 
>to be new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 475.00 and 
>may be this is what I will end up spending.

Frank,

You don't really say why you need a new motor.  Check your local yellow
pages to see if you don't have anyone that rebuilds motors near you.
You might be able to have them rehab the motor, for a lot less than
a new one.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 13:57:17 2008
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:57:17 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <441250190801241257u42669de9w507b24dd49eae83e@mail.gmail.com>

Try http://www.craigslist.org, they seem to pop up there all the time in the
seattle area.  I have heard of people using the cheap  5hp compressor motor
from Harbor Freight to make a rotary phase convertor; maybe that will work
on the lathe.

-g



On Jan 24, 2008 9:00 AM, Frank Vantacich <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does any
> one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't have to be
> new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 475.00 and may be
> this is what I will end up spending.
>
>  Thanks for the help.
>
>
> Frank V.
>  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com  Thu Jan 24 14:01:34 2008
From: bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com (Brian Warrick)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:01:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <441250190801241257u42669de9w507b24dd49eae83e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684A81497@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>

I purchased a similar motor off of my local craigslist, but I had to
wait a long time for one to appear and I have not seen one since.  We
are using a 1/2 Hp Harbor Freight motor running a small reciprocating
airbrush type compressor for 1 year of 10 hour days, 7 days a week
operation without any problems.

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bwarrick=conveyorengineering.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bwarrick=conveyorengineering.com at autox.team.ne
t] On Behalf Of Bill Gilroy
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:57 PM
To: Frank Vantacich
Cc: Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] lathe motor

Try http://www.craigslist.org, they seem to pop up there all the time in
the
seattle area.  I have heard of people using the cheap  5hp compressor
motor
from Harbor Freight to make a rotary phase convertor; maybe that will
work
on the lathe.

-g



On Jan 24, 2008 9:00 AM, Frank Vantacich <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does
any
> one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't have to
be
> new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 475.00 and may be
> this is what I will end up spending.
>
>  Thanks for the help.
>
>
> Frank V.
>  rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Thu Jan 24 14:50:42 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:50:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018f01c85ed3$30dd50a0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

I've had a number of satisfactory dealings with this company.

Dealers Electric Motor
Bldg. 123, Brooklyn Navy Yard
Brooklyn, NY 11205

+1 (718) 522-1110

http://www.dealerselectric.com/



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Frank Vantacich
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 12:00 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor


I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does any
one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't have to be
new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 475.00 and may be this
is what I will end up spending.

  Thanks for the help.

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Thu Jan 24 21:04:39 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:04:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] lathe motor
In-Reply-To: <421483.1872.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20080124200412.027f0828@incoming.verizon.net>

www.surpluscenter.com

Huge selection, good prices

At 09:00 AM  1/24/2008  -0800, Frank Vantacich wrote:
>I am in need of a 5hp 1725rpm electric motor for a metal lathe.  Does any 
>one know of a good source for something like this, it doesn't have to be 
>new.  So far I've seen prices ranging from 375.00 to 475.00 and may be 
>this is what I will end up spending.
>
>   Thanks for the help.
>
>
>Frank V.
>   rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Sun Jan 27 11:48:48 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:48:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
Message-ID: <001a01c86115$41937750$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

  The digital calibers that have severed me well for several years started
acting weird so, just like when I was 8 years old and my mothers clock
stopped working, I decided to open it up and see how it works.
Looking at the internals, I could find nothing that would give any notion as
to how movement of the lower jaw could be translated in to a measurement.
In my quest to find a question that can stump this group, anyone know how
these digital calibers actually work?

Bob Nogueira  ( who magically got them working again after reassembly,
unlike my mothers clock)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 12:11:57 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:11:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <001a01c86115$41937750$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
References: <001a01c86115$41937750$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801271111x4a0ba3fes3b91c726802c658c@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 27, 2008 1:48 PM, Bob Nogueira <nogera at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>   The digital calibers that have severed me well for several years started
> acting weird so, just like when I was 8 years old and my mothers clock
> stopped working, I decided to open it up and see how it works.
> Looking at the internals, I could find nothing that would give any notion as
> to how movement of the lower jaw could be translated in to a measurement.
> In my quest to find a question that can stump this group, anyone know how
> these digital calibers actually work?

Digital calipers (it's spelt with a P!  Guns have calibers!) have a
linear encoder of some sort.  I think -- though i've never taken one
all the way apart -- that they're using a variable capacitance.
There's a  printed pattern on the PCB in the sliding bit, and another,
inside the fixed part.  As you move them, the capacitance changes.  It
goes  up, reaches a peak, and then falls, and the goes up, etc.  The
little thing counts the cycles, and knows, with amazing accuracy,
where it is.  No moving parts means they're very reliable  (much more
so then dial ones, which have a rack and pinion which collects little
bits of junk that break them...).



>
> Bob Nogueira  ( who magically got them working again after reassembly,
> unlike my mothers clock)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Jan 27 12:21:41 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:21:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
Message-ID: <200801271921.m0RJLfx3015099@moose.dimebank.com>

> There's a  printed pattern on the PCB in the sliding bit, and another,
> inside the fixed part.  As you move them, the capacitance changes.  It
> goes  up, reaches a peak, and then falls, and the goes up, etc.

Exactly right. Some of them have relative encoders, but some have
absolute encoding, too... and some are using inductance rather than
capacitance.

http://www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/products/sokuchouunit/Scale.pdf

has a bunch of interesting info.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 27 19:53:07 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801271111x4a0ba3fes3b91c726802c658c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <926996.86793.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The digital calipers I have (The HF Classic) have an
interesting characteristic:  The power switch does not
actually turn it off.  If you turn it off, move the
jaws, and turn it back on again, it reads the value it
ought to.  This is convenient, but it means the
battery always goes dead in 9 months or so, no matter
how much it is actually used.

Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 27 19:53:07 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40801271111x4a0ba3fes3b91c726802c658c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <926996.86793.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The digital calipers I have (The HF Classic) have an
interesting characteristic:  The power switch does not
actually turn it off.  If you turn it off, move the
jaws, and turn it back on again, it reads the value it
ought to.  This is convenient, but it means the
battery always goes dead in 9 months or so, no matter
how much it is actually used.

Doug

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Jan 27 20:04:33 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:04:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <926996.86793.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002401c8615a$8c203110$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

Batteries are cheap....I like the feature......

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Doug Braun
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 9:53 PM
To: David Scheidt; nogera at worldnet.att.net; ShopTalk
Cc: Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers


The digital calipers I have (The HF Classic) have an interesting
characteristic:  The power switch does not actually turn it off.  If you
turn it off, move the jaws, and turn it back on again, it reads the value it
ought to.  This is convenient, but it means the battery always goes dead in
9 months or so, no matter how much it is actually used.

Doug
_______________________________________________

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 27 20:08:37 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:08:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <002401c8615a$8c203110$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <38685.20734.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> wrote:

> Batteries are cheap....I like the feature......

About those little batteries (LR44?) that the calipers
and many other Chinese things use:

You can buy one for $2 at the supermarket or hardware
store, or you can buy 10 for $1 at a dollar store.

Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Jan 27 20:08:37 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:08:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <002401c8615a$8c203110$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <38685.20734.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> wrote:

> Batteries are cheap....I like the feature......

About those little batteries (LR44?) that the calipers
and many other Chinese things use:

You can buy one for $2 at the supermarket or hardware
store, or you can buy 10 for $1 at a dollar store.

Doug

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 20:49:21 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:49:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <926996.86793.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2400a5d40801271111x4a0ba3fes3b91c726802c658c@mail.gmail.com>
	<926996.86793.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40801271949x4b6ba596oedbde601131e9420@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 27, 2008 9:53 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> The digital calipers I have (The HF Classic) have an
> interesting characteristic:  The power switch does not
> actually turn it off.  If you turn it off, move the
> jaws, and turn it back on again, it reads the value it
> ought to.  This is convenient, but it means the
> battery always goes dead in 9 months or so, no matter
> how much it is actually used.
>

All of mine do that, too.  Thinking about it, I don't think I've ever
changed a battery in any of these things.  My miymotuo ones are 5 or
six 6 years old.  The circuitry takes an amazingly small amount of
power.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Jan 27 22:34:07 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:34:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Digital Calibers
In-Reply-To: <38685.20734.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080128053407.XTIO5487.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>

> You can buy one for $2 at the supermarket or hardware store, 
> or you can buy 10 for $1 at a dollar store.

And with any luck they will last 1/20 as long as the $2 ones.  After going
through most of a pack of 10 in less than a year, I threw the rest away.

Randall

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sun Jan 27 22:41:35 2008
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:41:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing rust stains from concrete?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1201201202.17956.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.15.1201201202.17956.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <001001c86170$7295caf0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC>

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+markmiller=threeboysfarm.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+markmiller=threeboysfarm.com at autox.team.net] On 
<<<From: Chris Kantarjiev <cak at dimebank.com>
We've been using Whink
http://www.whink.com/rust_stain_remover.htm
at our cabin for years now - it's the only thing that reliably gets out 
the rust stains caused by the iron in our well without requiring 
respiratory protection during use. It's mostly dilute hydrofluoric acid 
(if you read the label and MSDS).

They appear to have a bunch of related products; it appears that
http://www.whink.com/rust_and_iron_stain_remover.htm
might be a better choice for concrete.
>>>

My two cents: I'd much much rather have rust stains than any dealings with
hydrofluoric acid.  If you get a chance peruse its MSDS - this stuff is
quite nasty.  It doesn't burn skin, but will 'seep' through and attack he
calcium in your bones. 
Be careful out there....

Mark Miller
Sebastopol, CA 

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 12:53:24 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:53:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Home remodeling when you suck at interior design?
Message-ID: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>

I will be starting on a progressive remodeling of our home, which is an
older, simple 3 bedroom rambler. I have the skills and tools to do all of
the physical work myself, and I'm looking to do a budget remodel that will
simply modernize the look a bit, and strengthen marketability for the
future. This house may eventually end up as rental, or it may end up on the
market as a "starter home". I am starting with the master bathroom which is
a fairly small space in this older house. Pretty much a complete re-do is
needed. New tub and tub-surround, new ceiling and floor (currently faded,
dated tile on both), new vanity, sink, counter-top (currently a built-in
counter-top due to the shape of the room), faucets, mirror, lights, towel
bars etc.

While it's nice that I can do the work myself, my hang-up is I suck at
interior design in terms of choosing colors, accessories etc. I am your
typical knuckle dragging Neanderthal male who would not know a bathroom that
was "in-style", or "coordinated" if it hit me upside the head. To make
matters more frustrating, I am a visual learner and my eyes glaze over when
an interior decorator type starts telling me what needs done with no
pictures to help explain.

While I don't want to over-complicate this project, I'd like to have some
sort of plan of attack other than going down to home depot and throwing a
bunch of stuff in a cart, and hope it looks right when installed (which is
what I usually do...).

Any websites that have a bunch of bathroom design pictures? Any free or
relatively inexpensive 3D design software that might be helpful in a home
redesign? The bathroom is just the first room, so I will be faced with this
same problem on all the other areas of the house as well.

Know of any websites where home owners may have documented their
do-it-yourself journey while remodeling their homes? I'd be particularly
interested in any refurb techniques that could update the look of the area
without spending a ton of money, like techniques to refinish old style
cabinets vs. replacing them etc.

Thanks

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Jan 29 13:35:57 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:35:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Home remodeling when you suck at interior  design?
In-Reply-To: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <DCC97CF1383E46578D5E79431C948F9B@OwnerPC>

corner,

I'd start with www.hgtv.com   they have sections for each room in the house 
and a general "remodel' section that can guide you through some of what you 
want to do... with lots of pictures  and even videos !!  another web site is 
www.diy.com   much like hgtv with articles, how-tos and tool ads.

They also have lots of programs on their cable / satellite channel that 
shows just what you're trying to do... make  an inexpensive remodel look 
like a high dollar redo.   I personally hate that channel cause it gives my 
wife too many ideas !

Next bet would be find a real paint store... Sherwin-Williams, Benjamin 
Moore, etc   Lots of the larger stores have in store decorators that help 
the design challenged individuals like you and me.  some of them even do in 
house appointments.

Third choice is find a local school that teaches interior design and see if 
they have a student that is willing to help you for the experience.    (hgtv 
also has a show with that theme).

I don't think you'll get much help at home depot or Lowes, they just want to 
sell you crap and make you mad cause you had to wait on their slow sorry 
a**es..  sorry... I've got a problem with Lowes right now..

later
John


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cornerexit" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:53 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Home remodeling when you suck at interior design?


>I will be starting on a progressive remodeling of our home, which is an
> older, simple 3 bedroom rambler. I have the skills and tools to do all of
> the physical work myself, and I'm looking to do a budget remodel that will
> simply modernize the look a bit, and strengthen marketability for the
> future. This house may eventually end up as rental, or it may end up on 
> the
> market as a "starter home". I am starting with the master bathroom which 
> is
> a fairly small space in this older house. Pretty much a complete re-do is
> needed. New tub and tub-surround, new ceiling and floor (currently faded,
> dated tile on both), new vanity, sink, counter-top (currently a built-in
> counter-top due to the shape of the room), faucets, mirror, lights, towel
> bars etc.
>
> While it's nice that I can do the work myself, my hang-up is I suck at
> interior design in terms of choosing colors, accessories etc. I am your
> typical knuckle dragging Neanderthal male who would not know a bathroom 
> that
> was "in-style", or "coordinated" if it hit me upside the head. To make
> matters more frustrating, I am a visual learner and my eyes glaze over 
> when
> an interior decorator type starts telling me what needs done with no
> pictures to help explain.
>
> While I don't want to over-complicate this project, I'd like to have some
> sort of plan of attack other than going down to home depot and throwing a
> bunch of stuff in a cart, and hope it looks right when installed (which is
> what I usually do...).
>
> Any websites that have a bunch of bathroom design pictures? Any free or
> relatively inexpensive 3D design software that might be helpful in a home
> redesign? The bathroom is just the first room, so I will be faced with 
> this
> same problem on all the other areas of the house as well.
>
> Know of any websites where home owners may have documented their
> do-it-yourself journey while remodeling their homes? I'd be particularly
> interested in any refurb techniques that could update the look of the area
> without spending a ton of money, like techniques to refinish old style
> cabinets vs. replacing them etc.
>
> Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jan 29 13:49:45 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:49:45 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Home remodeling when you suck at interior  design?
In-Reply-To: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <479F9169.7060602@dimebank.com>

cornerexit wrote:
> I will be starting on a progressive remodeling of our home, which is an
> older, simple 3 bedroom rambler. I have the skills and tools to do all of
> the physical work myself, and I'm looking to do a budget remodel that will
> simply modernize the look a bit, and strengthen marketability for the
> future. This house may eventually end up as rental, or it may end up on the
> market as a "starter home". I am starting with the master bathroom which is
> a fairly small space in this older house. Pretty much a complete re-do is
> needed. New tub and tub-surround, new ceiling and floor (currently faded,
> dated tile on both), new vanity, sink, counter-top (currently a built-in
> counter-top due to the shape of the room), faucets, mirror, lights, towel
> bars etc.
> 
> While it's nice that I can do the work myself, my hang-up is I suck at
> interior design in terms of choosing colors, accessories etc. I am your
> typical knuckle dragging Neanderthal male who would not know a bathroom that
> was "in-style", or "coordinated" if it hit me upside the head. To make
> matters more frustrating, I am a visual learner and my eyes glaze over when
> an interior decorator type starts telling me what needs done with no
> pictures to help explain.
> 
> While I don't want to over-complicate this project, I'd like to have some
> sort of plan of attack other than going down to home depot and throwing a
> bunch of stuff in a cart, and hope it looks right when installed (which is
> what I usually do...).
> 
> Any websites that have a bunch of bathroom design pictures? Any free or
> relatively inexpensive 3D design software that might be helpful in a home
> redesign? The bathroom is just the first room, so I will be faced with this
> same problem on all the other areas of the house as well.

Google bought SketchUp, so it's free now. It's a pretty nice tool once 
you figure out some of its oddities.

> Know of any websites where home owners may have documented their
> do-it-yourself journey while remodeling their homes? I'd be particularly
> interested in any refurb techniques that could update the look of the area
> without spending a ton of money, like techniques to refinish old style
> cabinets vs. replacing them etc.

For color choices, there are a bunch of tools on the web that might help 
you pick good color palettes. Try the Sherwin Williams site.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Jan 29 14:43:22 2008
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:43:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Home remodeling when you suck at interior design?
In-Reply-To: <DCC97CF1383E46578D5E79431C948F9B@OwnerPC>
References: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
	<DCC97CF1383E46578D5E79431C948F9B@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <20080129164024.P43907@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, john niolon wrote:
> Third choice is find a local school that teaches interior design and see if
> they have a student that is willing to help you for the experience.    (hgtv
> also has a show with that theme).

    One of the 20k sites I'm responsible for happens to be...

 	http://interiordesignschools.org

    You may be able to find one listed there, if you are so inclined.

--
  David Hillman

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Tue Jan 29 15:22:30 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:22:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] induction heater
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080129172127.02dde2a0@pop.nycap.rr.com>

OTC sells an induction heater here:

http://otctools.com/products/detail.php?id=2419


can someone tell me how this works, and more importantly, how well it works.

thanks
Skip

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From darrellw at ipns.com  Tue Jan 29 15:30:54 2008
From: darrellw at ipns.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:30:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] induction heater
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080129172127.02dde2a0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080129172127.02dde2a0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FD571D27-F87D-45BF-A4A5-9558B5A5B8B3@ipns.com>

A quick google found this on the "how":

http://www.cihinduction.com/whatis.htm

Sounds similar to an induction range.

0Darrell

On Jan 29, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Skip Albright wrote:

> OTC sells an induction heater here:
>
> http://otctools.com/products/detail.php?id=2419
>
>
> can someone tell me how this works, and more importantly, how well  
> it works.
>
> thanks
> Skip
>
> Nothing is as it appears
> Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as darrellw at ipns.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From hardhat at comcast.net  Tue Jan 29 19:21:22 2008
From: hardhat at comcast.net (Hard Hat)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:21:22 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] induction heater
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080129172127.02dde2a0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080129200900.041a00d0@mail.comcast.net>

Skip,

Also take a look at The Inductor products at http://www.theinductor.com/

They have an excellent video on their website that clearly shows how these 
types of flameless heaters work.

I have personally used a couple of their different kits - the MiniDuctor 
and the Inductor MAX.  They work flawlessly and I can not stress how big a 
time saver they are - especially when you are working around flammable 
locations on vehicles where an open flame style heater is deadly.  They 
have MULTIPLE attachments available to help concentrate the heat to the 
part and avoid heating other parts or areas that you want to avoid.  The 
company has been around for a number of years, the products are very well 
built and have great after purchase support.

I have not personally used the OTC product, but understand it has only been 
out now for about 6 months.  As with most OTC products they are normally 
well built and have decent after purchase support.

- Sean




At 04:22 PM 1/29/08, Skip Albright wrote:
>OTC sells an induction heater here:
>
>http://otctools.com/products/detail.php?id=2419
>
>
>can someone tell me how this works, and more importantly, how well it works.
>
>thanks
>Skip
>
>Nothing is as it appears
>Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as hardhat at comcast.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Jan 29 13:49:45 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:49:45 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Home remodeling when you suck at interior  design?
In-Reply-To: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <479F9169.7060602@dimebank.com>

cornerexit wrote:
> I will be starting on a progressive remodeling of our home, which is an
> older, simple 3 bedroom rambler. I have the skills and tools to do all of
> the physical work myself, and I'm looking to do a budget remodel that will
> simply modernize the look a bit, and strengthen marketability for the
> future. This house may eventually end up as rental, or it may end up on the
> market as a "starter home". I am starting with the master bathroom which is
> a fairly small space in this older house. Pretty much a complete re-do is
> needed. New tub and tub-surround, new ceiling and floor (currently faded,
> dated tile on both), new vanity, sink, counter-top (currently a built-in
> counter-top due to the shape of the room), faucets, mirror, lights, towel
> bars etc.
> 
> While it's nice that I can do the work myself, my hang-up is I suck at
> interior design in terms of choosing colors, accessories etc. I am your
> typical knuckle dragging Neanderthal male who would not know a bathroom that
> was "in-style", or "coordinated" if it hit me upside the head. To make
> matters more frustrating, I am a visual learner and my eyes glaze over when
> an interior decorator type starts telling me what needs done with no
> pictures to help explain.
> 
> While I don't want to over-complicate this project, I'd like to have some
> sort of plan of attack other than going down to home depot and throwing a
> bunch of stuff in a cart, and hope it looks right when installed (which is
> what I usually do...).
> 
> Any websites that have a bunch of bathroom design pictures? Any free or
> relatively inexpensive 3D design software that might be helpful in a home
> redesign? The bathroom is just the first room, so I will be faced with this
> same problem on all the other areas of the house as well.

Google bought SketchUp, so it's free now. It's a pretty nice tool once 
you figure out some of its oddities.

> Know of any websites where home owners may have documented their
> do-it-yourself journey while remodeling their homes? I'd be particularly
> interested in any refurb techniques that could update the look of the area
> without spending a ton of money, like techniques to refinish old style
> cabinets vs. replacing them etc.

For color choices, there are a bunch of tools on the web that might help 
you pick good color palettes. Try the Sherwin Williams site.

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 30 16:26:24 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:26:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Home remodeling when you suck at interior  design?
In-Reply-To: <0d5101c862b0$9c4569a0$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <002901c86397$8941c6e0$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

I just finished a full remodel and update of our house including expanding
the kitchen and master bath and all new cabinets.
Like you I really don't have an eye for how something will look when
finished unless I'm copying something else.
While my wife knows what she likes she is not very good at translating that
into something I can understand.
( She says " clean lines" and I see 'Basic" )
Anyway I bought a program Better Home& Gardens Home Design. It worked great
and helped a bunch.
 With it you lay out the room and from a library can place cabinets,
furniture etc where you want it in the room. You work with a line drawing.
You then choose a point from which you want to view,  click  3D view  you
have a 3 D picture of the room. You can actually move through the room and
change the view as you walk.
The program allows you to pick all the colors for walls, trim  as well as
cabinet and trim style.  You can even place 'Stuff" like a lamp or dog in
the room as well as the style of windows doors etc.
I got so good at it that our finished kitchen actually looks very very much
like the picture.

This would allow you to plan out a room and show it for suggestions, then
make the changes you want

One of the side benefits was that after making a floor plan of the full
house I was able to draw in the all the wiring runs from socket to fuse box.
Now rather than just having a list by the box I can actually see how each
outlet gets its power and where the wired run.

The program saved me a lot of problems by showing that a idea was not going
to work without interfering with something else.

If you like I can email you  some pictures, off group, of the planned
kitchen and actual finished kitchen

Bob Nogueira


> -----Original Message-----
>
> I will be starting on a progressive remodeling of our home,
> which is an older,
> While I don't want to over-complicate this project, I'd like
> to have some sort of plan of attack other than going down to
> home depot and throwing a bunch of stuff in a cart, and hope
> it looks right when installed (which is what I usually do...).
>
>
> Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as nogera at worldnet.att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 10:20:30 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:20:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic Oil
Message-ID: <bdde53220801310920s1f5fc949vea572340029b8eb5@mail.gmail.com>

My lift is coming next week and I'm trying to get everything I need
together.  Under the list of things that I need is "3 gallons of
hydraulic oil."  Below it says:  "Recommended Oil: ISO 32 Light
Hydraulic Oil"

Later in the manual it says that Dexron III Transmission Fluid can also be used.

My local Tractor Supply seems to carry ISO 46 and ISO 68 as well as
something called "Hydraulic 5 gal Universal Oil" that they claim can
be used in the gearbox, diff, wet brakes, and hydraulic system of
tractors.

I don't have a lot of experience with hydraulic systems.  My gut tells
me that I could put just about any incompressible fluid in this thing
and it should work.  It's a really slow moving operation.  Should I
not worry about this and just buy the ISO 46 or the "Universal" oil or
should I launch a search for ISO 32?

-Paul

From battmain at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 31 12:59:32 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:59:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
Message-ID: <640830.86428.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Workiing on trying to figure out why my grandmothers dishwasher wasn't
working. Outlet under the sink both had power. In the process of
troubleshooting, found a tripped GFCI and thought that was part of the
problem. It wasn't...separate problem according to my testing. Since she will
be remodeling soon, we are going to forget about the dishwasher, so figured
I'd replace the GFCI. Old outlet had only a single slot on the front for
power. On the back, there are labels line1 and load on the old outlet. The new
one has two outlets on the front. I cannot find any replacement with just a
single outlet like the old one. (Maybe I need to look harder and make my life
simple.)  On back, there is a tape that says not to hook up anything until
after testing. If I hook up the line terminals to either set of wires, the
outlet works as it is supposed to by allowing me to set, test and it works as
it is supposed to. The little green light goes off when tripped. If I hook up
both sets of wires, according to the instructions, the circuit is wired wrong
because the green light is still on when tripped. 

Does this mean I have two line wires going to the box?  (scratches head)

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Jan 31 15:06:08 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:06:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic Oil
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801310920s1f5fc949vea572340029b8eb5@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <bdde53220801310920s1f5fc949vea572340029b8eb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0JVJ0083844YWEK0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, that is a question that I would ask of the lift manufacturer.  

From lspector at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 18:51:21 2008
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:51:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic Oil
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801310920s1f5fc949vea572340029b8eb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdde53220801310920s1f5fc949vea572340029b8eb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <167503c10801311751k4a2ef640s32d8c3c81125ef62@mail.gmail.com>

I went with the Dexron III in my Bend-Pak HD9, I figured it was
specifically mentioned as being OK while "hydraulic oil" was a bit too
general.

So far so good!

-Larry

On Jan 31, 2008 12:20 PM, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
> My lift is coming next week and I'm trying to get everything I need
> together.  Under the list of things that I need is "3 gallons of
> hydraulic oil."  Below it says:  "Recommended Oil: ISO 32 Light
> Hydraulic Oil"
>
> Later in the manual it says that Dexron III Transmission Fluid can also be used.
>
> My local Tractor Supply seems to carry ISO 46 and ISO 68 as well as
> something called "Hydraulic 5 gal Universal Oil" that they claim can
> be used in the gearbox, diff, wet brakes, and hydraulic system of
> tractors.
>
> I don't have a lot of experience with hydraulic systems.  My gut tells
> me that I could put just about any incompressible fluid in this thing
> and it should work.  It's a really slow moving operation.  Should I
> not worry about this and just buy the ISO 46 or the "Universal" oil or
> should I launch a search for ISO 32?
>
> -Paul
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as lspector at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Jan 31 20:49:23 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:49:23 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <640830.86428.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <640830.86428.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47A296C3.1010802@hornesystemstx.com>

Brian,

Several things here.

Don't worry about finding a single outlet GFCI. I've never seen one, but 
that doesn't mean they don't exist any more.The two outlets are 
connected in parallel, so just plug whatever was plugged into the single 
socket and forget the other one.

Now for the wiring on the back.Verify which wires are hot, they go to 
the connections marked line. The other wires connect to the load 
connections. GFCIs will work if hooked up backwards, the only difference 
is that when hooked up backwards whatever is plugged directly into the 
GFCI is not protected.

If the green light stays on when the GFCI is tripped you have the wires 
backwards.

If you need more information feel free to ask.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Battmain:
> Workiing on trying to figure out why my grandmothers dishwasher wasn't
> working. Outlet under the sink both had power. In the process of
> troubleshooting, found a tripped GFCI and thought that was part of the
> problem. It wasn't...separate problem according to my testing. Since she will
> be remodeling soon, we are going to forget about the dishwasher, so figured
> I'd replace the GFCI. Old outlet had only a single slot on the front for
> power. On the back, there are labels line1 and load on the old outlet. The new
> one has two outlets on the front. I cannot find any replacement with just a
> single outlet like the old one. (Maybe I need to look harder and make my life
> simple.)  On back, there is a tape that says not to hook up anything until
> after testing. If I hook up the line terminals to either set of wires, the
> outlet works as it is supposed to by allowing me to set, test and it works as
> it is supposed to. The little green light goes off when tripped. If I hook up
> both sets of wires, according to the instructions, the circuit is wired wrong
> because the green light is still on when tripped. 
>
> Does this mean I have two line wires going to the box?  (scratches head)
>
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and 
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --