From battmain at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  1 07:57:05 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:57:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <47A296C3.1010802@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <26865.5813.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Well, what's really confusing me is that I thought about it
being hooked up backwards too, so I swapped the wires around.
It's behaving as if both wires are line wires. When both
wires are hooked up, (either way) I'm unable to set the switch.
But if I hook up either set of wires to the line terminals, the
GFCI appears to work normally. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

--- Pat Horne <roadsters at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:

> Brian,
> 
> Several things here.
> 
> Don't worry about finding a single outlet GFCI. I've never seen one, but 
> that doesn't mean they don't exist any more.The two outlets are 
> connected in parallel, so just plug whatever was plugged into the single 
> socket and forget the other one.
> 
> Now for the wiring on the back.Verify which wires are hot, they go to 
> the connections marked line. The other wires connect to the load 
> connections. GFCIs will work if hooked up backwards, the only difference 
> is that when hooked up backwards whatever is plugged directly into the 
> GFCI is not protected.
> 
> If the green light stays on when the GFCI is tripped you have the wires 
> backwards.
> 
> If you need more information feel free to ask.
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From trimmer at charter.net  Fri Feb  1 13:16:55 2008
From: trimmer at charter.net (Ron & Mary Trimmer)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:16:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable CAD
 software
Message-ID: <04a601c8650f$6436ffe0$2ca4ffa0$@net>

I want to re-start building my V-8 powered dune buggy as a way to try to
refine and test a suspension idea.

I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software that will run on a
PC.  I have XP.

It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do stress tests.

I would appreciate any suggestion the group could provide.

Thanks, 

Ron Trimmer, trimmer at charter.net

From jdrush at enter.net  Fri Feb  1 13:13:23 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (jdrush)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:13:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable
 CAD software
Message-ID: <47a37d63.118.34bc.914354170@enter.net>

http://tenlinks.com/Technology/free.htm is a great place to
start for free CAD and FEA

Jon

> I want to re-start building my V-8 powered dune buggy as a
> way to try to refine and test a suspension idea.
> 
> I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software
> that will run on a PC.  I have XP.
> 
> It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do
> stress tests.
> 
> I would appreciate any suggestion the group could provide.
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Ron Trimmer, trimmer at charter.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as jdrush at enter.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Feb  1 17:52:43 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:52:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <26865.5813.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <26865.5813.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47A3BEDB.7040808@hornesystemstx.com>

Make sure that the black and white wires that you have connected to each 
side are in the same cables. If you have them crossed (black from line 
and white from load together, etc.), and there is something plugged into 
and turned on in one of the load outlets it can cause this kind of problem.

If you have a volt meter, measure across each pair of wires to see which 
pair has power on it. Check the other one to be sure it doesn't. If you 
don't have a volt meter, try hooking up only one set of wires and see if 
the green light comes on. If it does, you should be able to push the 
test button and the GFCI will click and the light will go out. Try the 
same thing with the other pair of wires. I think you will find that only 
one pair is hot.

If the power is connected to the line side of the GFCI and the GFCI is 
tripped whatever is plugged into the GFCI should not work. If it does, 
you have it wired backwards.

I'm still betting on crossed wires line to load.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Battmain:
> Well, what's really confusing me is that I thought about it
> being hooked up backwards too, so I swapped the wires around.
> It's behaving as if both wires are line wires. When both
> wires are hooked up, (either way) I'm unable to set the switch.
> But if I hook up either set of wires to the line terminals, the
> GFCI appears to work normally. 
>
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com
>
> --- Pat Horne <roadsters at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Brian,
>>
>> Several things here.
>>
>> Don't worry about finding a single outlet GFCI. I've never seen one, but 
>> that doesn't mean they don't exist any more.The two outlets are 
>> connected in parallel, so just plug whatever was plugged into the single 
>> socket and forget the other one.
>>
>> Now for the wiring on the back.Verify which wires are hot, they go to 
>> the connections marked line. The other wires connect to the load 
>> connections. GFCIs will work if hooked up backwards, the only difference 
>> is that when hooked up backwards whatever is plugged directly into the 
>> GFCI is not protected.
>>
>> If the green light stays on when the GFCI is tripped you have the wires 
>> backwards.
>>
>> If you need more information feel free to ask.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>>
>>     
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From trimmer at charter.net  Fri Feb  1 21:32:44 2008
From: trimmer at charter.net (Ron & Mary Trimmer)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:32:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable CAD
 software
Message-ID: <04f501c86554$a7af2230$f70d6690$@net>

I want to re-start building my V-8 powered dune buggy as a way to try to
refine and test a suspension idea.

I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software that will run on a
PC.  I have XP.

It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do stress tests.

I would appreciate any suggestion the group could provide.

Thanks, 

Ron Trimmer, trimmer at charter.net

From mikey at b2systems.com  Fri Feb  1 22:33:43 2008
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:33:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Hydraulic Oil
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220801310920s1f5fc949vea572340029b8eb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdde53220801310920s1f5fc949vea572340029b8eb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A400B7.8060202@b2systems.com>

 Both my lifts got Dexron as per the manufacturer, one of them actually 
told me the dexron is better


Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> My lift is coming next week and I'm trying to get everything I need
> together.  Under the list of things that I need is "3 gallons of
> hydraulic oil."  Below it says:  "Recommended Oil: ISO 32 Light
> Hydraulic Oil"
>
> Later in the manual it says that Dexron III Transmission Fluid can also be used.
>
> My local Tractor Supply seems to carry ISO 46 and ISO 68 as well as
> something called "Hydraulic 5 gal Universal Oil" that they claim can
> be used in the gearbox, diff, wet brakes, and hydraulic system of
> tractors.
>
> I don't have a lot of experience with hydraulic systems.  My gut tells
> me that I could put just about any incompressible fluid in this thing
> and it should work.  It's a really slow moving operation.  Should I
> not worry about this and just buy the ISO 46 or the "Universal" oil or
> should I launch a search for ISO 32?
>
> -Paul

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 22:58:16 2008
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:58:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable
 CAD software
In-Reply-To: <04a601c8650f$6436ffe0$2ca4ffa0$@net>
References: <04a601c8650f$6436ffe0$2ca4ffa0$@net>
Message-ID: <441250190802012158ma28218dib3445ffca43f1641@mail.gmail.com>

Qcad @ ribbonsoft.com is not bad.  It is only 2D and costs about $35 US.  I
like it for doing sheetmetal layout. If anyone knows of something better I
am all ears.  Qcad will not do 3D or stress type of stuff.

-g


On 2/1/08, Ron & Mary Trimmer <trimmer at charter.net> wrote:
>
> I want to re-start building my V-8 powered dune buggy as a way to try to
> refine and test a suspension idea.
>
> I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software that will run on
> a
> PC.  I have XP.
>
> It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do stress tests.
>
> I would appreciate any suggestion the group could provide.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Trimmer, trimmer at charter.net
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Feb  2 06:51:50 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 08:51:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable
 CAD software
In-Reply-To: <04f501c86554$a7af2230$f70d6690$@net>
References: <04f501c86554$a7af2230$f70d6690$@net>
Message-ID: <47A47576.9040404@xxiii.com>

Ron & Mary Trimmer wrote:
> I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software that will run on a
> PC.  I have XP.
> It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do stress tests.

I used to support Autocad 2000 and Pro-Engineer at a previous job;  but 
they're high-dollar.  I'm not aware of any free packages that fully 
featured.  You might try Wikipedia.  They usually have lists or 
comparison matrixes of types of software.  You probably need a package 
that does 3D modeling to do what you're asking.

The stress testing is called "Finite element analysis", to give ya' 
something to google on.  Or check: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_analysis

Some software offers inexpensive student versions.  Eg, AutoCAD for $160 
at the community college bookstore, if you're registered for the $60 CAD 
class.

   -Wayne

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Feb  2 07:04:37 2008
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 09:04:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable
 CAD software
In-Reply-To: <04f501c86554$a7af2230$f70d6690$@net>
References: <04f501c86554$a7af2230$f70d6690$@net>
Message-ID: <47A47875.3010201@comcast.net>

I like QCad _a_lot_ <http://www.ribbonsoft.com>; great for 2d, but no analysis. 
  But it runs on Solaris, Linux, and Windoze.

Siemens SolidEdge looks like a strong contender. 
<http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/index.shtml> 
  A free version is available to see if it would suit your needs.  I don't know 
what the full boat costs.

I haven't used any real stress analysis programs, so I can't comment.

HTH,
Donald.

Ron & Mary Trimmer wrote:
> I want to re-start building my V-8 powered dune buggy as a way to try to
> refine and test a suspension idea.
> 
> I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software that will run on a
> PC.  I have XP.
> 
> It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do stress tests.
> 
> I would appreciate any suggestion the group could provide.
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Ron Trimmer, trimmer at charter.net

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Feb  2 07:46:50 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 09:46:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable
 CAD software
In-Reply-To: <441250190802012158ma28218dib3445ffca43f1641@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04a601c8650f$6436ffe0$2ca4ffa0$@net>
	<441250190802012158ma28218dib3445ffca43f1641@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A4825A.6000504@enter.net>

I forgot to mention that Google and Alibre offer free downloads of 
full-function 3D CAD programs. Google's is at 
http://sketchup.google.com/ and Alibre's is at 
http://www.alibre.com/xpress/ As best as I can tell, Alibre's is the 
most fully featured of all the free 3D cad tools.

Jon

Bill Gilroy wrote:

> Qcad @ ribbonsoft.com is not bad.  It is only 2D and costs about $35 US.  I
> like it for doing sheetmetal layout. If anyone knows of something better I
> am all ears.  Qcad will not do 3D or stress type of stuff.
> 
> -g
> 
> 
> On 2/1/08, Ron & Mary Trimmer <trimmer at charter.net> wrote:
> 
>>I want to re-start building my V-8 powered dune buggy as a way to try to
>>refine and test a suspension idea.
>>
>>I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software that will run on
>>a
>>PC.  I have XP.
>>
>>It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do stress tests.
>>
>>I would appreciate any suggestion the group could provide.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Ron Trimmer, trimmer at charter.net
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>You are subscribed as wmgilroy at gmail.com
>>
>>Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>>http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as jdrush at enter.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From 57healey at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 07:46:33 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:46:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Advice regarding free (public domain) or affordable
 CAD software
In-Reply-To: <04a601c8650f$6436ffe0$2ca4ffa0$@net>
References: <04a601c8650f$6436ffe0$2ca4ffa0$@net>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0802020646v4ac05dbdp73eae8eda393c343@mail.gmail.com>

Several leads here, but I don't know if any will work.

On Feb 1, 2008 2:16 PM, Ron & Mary Trimmer <trimmer at charter.net> wrote:

> I want to re-start building my V-8 powered dune buggy as a way to try to
> refine and test a suspension idea.
>
> I am looking for public domain or affordable CAD software that will run on
> a
> PC.  I have XP.
>
> It would be desirable to have the capability for it to do stress tests.
>
> I would appreciate any suggestion the group could provide.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Trimmer, trimmer at charter.net


-- 
Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Feb  2 09:03:42 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:03:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <26865.5813.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <927757.75074.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

When in doubt, buy a new one.  In the last year I have
had to replace three GFCIs in my house because the
test button no longer did anything.  Maybe only the
test button itself was bad and they were actually
still working, but why take a chance?

Doug


--- Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Well, what's really confusing me is that I thought
> about it
> being hooked up backwards too, so I swapped the
> wires around.
> It's behaving as if both wires are line wires. When
> both
> wires are hooked up, (either way) I'm unable to set
> the switch.
> But if I hook up either set of wires to the line
> terminals, the
> GFCI appears to work normally. 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Feb  2 09:27:47 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:27:47 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <927757.75074.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080202162747.TPHG15797.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

> Maybe only the test button itself was 
> bad and they were actually still working, but why take a chance?

I agree entirely.  But if you wanted to find out, it would be easy enough to
rig a dummy plug with a leak to safety ground in it.  Start with a
replacement 3-prong plug from HD and add a 10-15K 1 watt resistor from Radio
Shack between the hot & ground pins.  Plugging it into a working GFCI should
trip the GFCI instantly.  A second plug with ground shorted to neutral would
test the other function.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Feb  2 09:38:12 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:38:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <20080202162747.TPHG15797.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <927757.75074.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20080202162747.TPHG15797.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <0JVM008TFE7U8FB3@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Just buy an outlet tester.  There are some things that just aren't 
worth doing yourself.  I'm sorry.  I can't believe I just said 
that.  If you can suppress the construction urge, they're like 6 
bucks at Amazon.  Search for GFCI tester.  Also available at HD, 
Lowes and about a thousand other places.


At 11:27 AM 2/2/2008, Randall wrote:
> > Maybe only the test button itself was
> > bad and they were actually still working, but why take a chance?
>
>I agree entirely.  But if you wanted to find out, it would be easy enough to
>rig a dummy plug with a leak to safety ground in it.  Start with a
>replacement 3-prong plug from HD and add a 10-15K 1 watt resistor from Radio
>Shack between the hot & ground pins.  Plugging it into a working GFCI should
>trip the GFCI instantly.  A second plug with ground shorted to neutral would
>test the other function.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Feb  2 12:53:38 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:53:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <0JVM008TFE7U8FB3@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <24804.82294.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I like the build-your-own idea.  I have an older
3-light tester without the GFCI test function, and I
have been too cheap to buy a new one just to get that
additional functionality...

Doug


--- Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:

> Just buy an outlet tester.  There are some things
> that just aren't 
> worth doing yourself.  I'm sorry.  I can't believe I
> just said 
> that.  If you can suppress the construction urge,
> they're like 6 
> bucks at Amazon.  Search for GFCI tester.  Also
> available at HD, 
> Lowes and about a thousand other places.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 13:08:03 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 15:08:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <24804.82294.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <0JVM008TFE7U8FB3@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<24804.82294.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802021208rfc389d8v2642bbb9010895bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 2, 2008 2:53 PM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> I like the build-your-own idea.  I have an older
> 3-light tester without the GFCI test function, and I
> have been too cheap to buy a new one just to get that
> additional functionality...

It's worth pointing out that an external tester will not work on a
GFCI that's connected to a two-wire circuit.  That's allowed by code
most places, and it's often used to get three pronged outlets in older
construction without having to run new circuits.  The testers work by
putting a leak (fancy ones let you set it) between hot and the safety
ground.  There's no safety ground in the GFCI connected to two wires.
The internal tester (which has to be functional; replace them if
they're not!) works differently.  It is not, as sometimes claimed,
just a mechanical tester.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Feb  2 17:25:26 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 16:25:26 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40802021208rfc389d8v2642bbb9010895bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080203002526.HWSH15797.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

> It's worth pointing out that an external tester will not work 
> on a GFCI that's connected to a two-wire circuit.

Sure it will, if you do the current balance test to an external ground (or
even between a protected neutral and an unprotected hot).  Checking the
ground/neutral short detection function should work too.

> That's allowed by code most places,

Legal or not, I don't like the idea of having a safety ground pin that
isn't.  IMO, sooner or later, someone will get killed by this setup and the
NEC will decide it's a bad idea.

I'd rather have no ground pin at all (which I believe is still allowed by
code in old construction tho not for remodel or new installations) than a
fake ground.

They used to allow aluminum wire in homes, too.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 17:40:57 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:40:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <20080203002526.HWSH15797.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <2400a5d40802021208rfc389d8v2642bbb9010895bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080203002526.HWSH15797.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802021640x2056c5efrcba3a37d01db2469@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 2, 2008 7:25 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> > It's worth pointing out that an external tester will not work
> > on a GFCI that's connected to a two-wire circuit.
>
> Sure it will, if you do the current balance test to an external ground (or
> even between a protected neutral and an unprotected hot).  Checking the
> ground/neutral short detection function should work too.
>

The external testers I've seen are all self containted.  Plug them in,
push a button, and they trip the GFCI.  No choice about where to
direct the leakage current.

>

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Feb  2 18:09:55 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 17:09:55 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40802021640x2056c5efrcba3a37d01db2469@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080203010956.FNWC5295.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> The external testers I've seen are all self containted.  Plug 
> them in, push a button, and they trip the GFCI.  No choice 
> about where to direct the leakage current.

Yet another advantage of rollin yer own.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Feb  2 18:13:54 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 17:13:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GFCI Question
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40802021640x2056c5efrcba3a37d01db2469@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080203011354.FPZT5295.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> The external testers I've seen are all self containted.  Plug 
> them in, push a button, and they trip the GFCI.  No choice 
> about where to direct the leakage current.

All it takes is a 2-wire to 3-wire adapter.  Plug the tester into the
adapter, then run the wire from the adapter to an external ground.

Randall

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 12:28:27 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:28:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which software for this application
Message-ID: <01fd01c8669a$f5146390$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>

I would like some software that would allow me to design outbuildings for
our farm - sheds, carports, shops etc.

 

I would like said software to allow for providing inputs of the building
dimensions, material type, framing style, siding/roofing type, and have the
software create the drawings, and provide a bill of materials - twenty-four
8' studs etc. I could then plug in my local material costs for each item and
have a budget.

 

I know I'm asking for a lot here, but what the heck! ;)

 

Thanks

Wayne

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Feb  3 12:48:13 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 13:48:13 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which software for this application
In-Reply-To: <01fd01c8669a$f5146390$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <01fd01c8669a$f5146390$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <47A61A7D.7040307@hornesystemstx.com>

Contact your local Lowes, Home Depot, etc and some of them will do this 
for you. Ask for Contractor Sales.

Peace,
Pat.

Thusly spake cornerexit:
> I would like some software that would allow me to design outbuildings for
> our farm - sheds, carports, shops etc.
>
>  
>
> I would like said software to allow for providing inputs of the building
> dimensions, material type, framing style, siding/roofing type, and have the
> software create the drawings, and provide a bill of materials - twenty-four
> 8' studs etc. I could then plug in my local material costs for each item and
> have a budget.
>
>  
>
> I know I'm asking for a lot here, but what the heck! ;)
>
>  
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Feb  3 14:45:11 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 16:45:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which software for this application
In-Reply-To: <01fd01c8669a$f5146390$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080203164511.00a32900@pop.east.cox.net>

At 11:28 AM 2/3/2008 -0800, cornerexit wrote:

>I would like some software that would allow me to design outbuildings for
>our farm - sheds, carports, shops etc.
>
>I would like said software to allow for providing inputs of the building
>dimensions, material type, framing style, siding/roofing type, and have the
>software create the drawings, and provide a bill of materials - twenty-four
>8' studs etc. I could then plug in my local material costs for each item and
>have a budget.

>I know I'm asking for a lot here, but what the heck! ;)

Wayne,

I did this years ago to calculate the cost of a materials for a garage.
I used a spead sheet to do this.  Unfortunately, I've lost the template
over the years.  But it's not that difficult to do.

Start with a place to input the exterior size, length and width.  You know 
that you need 2x4 studs every 18" so you divide the length by 1.5' then 
multiply by 2, for both sides.  You'll need header and footers - say 2x4"s, 
calculate that by using the parimeter of the length and width, and divide 
by the length of the 2x4s.  Then the same from the width - front and rear. 
Then you can calculate the area of a side and divide by the area of a 4x8' 
sheet of plywood.  Again multiply by 2 to give you both sides.  Same for the 
front and rear.  If you want to finish the inside you can take the same
those numbers and you know how much dry wall you need.  You can subtract
out for a garage door if you want.  Then the roof, is simple geometry
to calculate the slope of the roof, calculate the the number trusses you'll
need.  Calculate the area of the roof and divide by a 4x8' sheet of plywood.  

Then you can list input the cost of the have a place where you input the
cost of the materials, say 1/2" sheet of plywood, 2x4"x8', sheet of drywall,
etc.  Then have the spread sheet calculate the cost.

>
> 
>
>Thanks
>

>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as jblair1948 at cox.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive
>
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Sun Feb  3 15:12:10 2008
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:12:10 EST
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which software for this application
Message-ID: <c95.24a390ee.34d7963a@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/3/2008 11:28:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
cornerexit at gmail.com writes:

I would  like some software that would allow me to design outbuildings for
our farm  - sheds, carports, shops etc.



I would like said software to  allow for providing inputs of the building
dimensions, material type,  framing style, siding/roofing type, and have the
software create the  drawings, and provide a bill of materials - twenty-four
8' studs etc. I  could then plug in my local material costs for each item and
have a  budget.



It's not free but it's inexpensive and easy to learn--that's DeltaCAD; I'm  
learning how to use it and it's great for architectural and engineering  
drawing.
 
Scotty from Hollyweird



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.     
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sun Feb  3 15:24:18 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:24:18 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] saving a circuit board after flooding?
Message-ID: <020320082224.14083.47A63F120006C80A00003703220702455304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

so it appears someone left a multimeter at the new house at some point int he last few weeks.  I called everybody that was out here and none of them are claiming it.  so I guess I've got a new multimeter.

but it was left outside in the rain, and when I turned it over, water literally flooded out.  I took it apart, removed the old battery and cloudy fuses and looked it over.  looks like a little corrosion and some whitish goo in some places.

so...can I save it?  and any advice on how?  blast it with water repellent or something?

thanks in advance.

scott

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 16:09:46 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:09:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] saving a circuit board after flooding?
In-Reply-To: <020320082224.14083.47A63F120006C80A00003703220702455304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <020320082224.14083.47A63F120006C80A00003703220702455304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <bdde53220802031509y2c79100dk48719ce15ca3c0db@mail.gmail.com>

Does it look like it's worth saving?  Is it a Fluke or similar?  If
it's a cheapy, I'd just toss it.  If it's expensive, I'd spray
everything down with contact cleaner and let it dry a couple times,
replace the fuse, put a new battery in, and see what it does.

I had a friend that put his work pager through the wash.  He managed
to get it working again by just removing the battery and drying it out
thoroughly, but it died a month or two later.  Probably not a
coincidence...

-Paul

On 2/3/08, scott.hall at comcast.net <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> so it appears someone left a multimeter at the new house at some point int he last few weeks.  I called everybody that was out here and none of them are claiming it.  so I guess I've got a new multimeter.
>
> but it was left outside in the rain, and when I turned it over, water literally flooded out.  I took it apart, removed the old battery and cloudy fuses and looked it over.  looks like a little corrosion and some whitish goo in some places.
>
> so...can I save it?  and any advice on how?  blast it with water repellent or something?
>
> thanks in advance.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From BSHolden at aol.com  Sun Feb  3 16:26:15 2008
From: BSHolden at aol.com (BSHolden at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:26:15 EST
Subject: [Shop-talk] saving a circuit board after flooding?
Message-ID: <be9.277b0ef5.34d7a797@aol.com>

Suggestions/ideas for saving a wet electronic device:
 
_http://www.wikihow.com/Save-a-Wet-Cell-Phone_ 
(http://www.wikihow.com/Save-a-Wet-Cell-Phone) 
 
Bart Holden
#9SM #43 FSP
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 2/3/2008 4:24:34 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
scott.hall at comcast.net writes:

so it  appears someone left a multimeter at the new house at some point int 
he last  few weeks.  I called everybody that was out here and none of them are  
claiming it.  so I guess I've got a new multimeter.

but it was  left outside in the rain, and when I turned it over, water 
literally flooded  out.  I took it apart, removed the old battery and cloudy fuses 
and  looked it over.  looks like a little corrosion and some whitish goo in  
some places.

so...can I save it?  and any advice on how?   blast it with water repellent 
or something?

thanks in  advance.

scott







**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.     
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sun Feb  3 16:47:25 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:47:25 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] saving a circuit board after flooding?
References: <020320082224.14083.47A63F120006C80A00003703220702455304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <01c301c866bf$215c1a50$6401a8c0@niolon>

I'm like Paul... if it's a brand name... Fluke, Triplet, Simpson I'd try to 
salvage it.  Remove the battery and fuse and clean the contacts.  I'd spray 
down the complete board and the switch contacts with aerosol contact cleaner 
till it was dripping off.   Then I'd take a q-tip or foam tipped applicator 
and wipe over everything I could reach with the same contact cleaner... wipe 
down the circuit board, especially between traces and at solder points to 
eliminate all the traces of corrosion I could reach.

You didn't say if it was analog or digital, but I'll assume digital.  You 
might not be able to salvage the readout but it's worth a try.  Set the 
whole thing out on the bench and let a fan blow across it for a day or two 
to speed drying.  You might even put it over a furnace register to add a 
little heat (but not enough to hurt it).   give it a week and replace 
battery/fuses.  and give it a try...All it will cost you is a can of cleaner 
and a little time.

If it works and continues too... go back inside in a month and look around 
with a magnifier and see if you spot any white areas of corrosion coming 
up... clean her again.  I'd pay particular attention to the switch plates 
and contacts, they get the most friction wear and will probably show the 
corrosion first...

If it came from Harbor Freight... save the leads and trash the meter.

j


Free your heart from hate.
Free your mind from worry.
Live simple, give more, expect less

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <scott.hall at comcast.net>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 4:24 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] saving a circuit board after flooding?


> so it appears someone left a multimeter at the new house at some point int 
> he last few weeks.  I called everybody that was out here and none of them 
> are claiming it.  so I guess I've got a new multimeter.
>
> but it was left outside in the rain, and when I turned it over, water 
> literally flooded out.  I took it apart, removed the old battery and 
> cloudy fuses and looked it over.  looks like a little corrosion and some 
> whitish goo in some places.
>
> so...can I save it?  and any advice on how?  blast it with water repellent 
> or something?
>
> thanks in advance.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.19/1256 - Release Date: 2/2/2008 
> 1:50 PM

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Feb  4 06:21:00 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:21:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] saving a circuit board after flooding?
In-Reply-To: <01c301c866bf$215c1a50$6401a8c0@niolon>
References: <020320082224.14083.47A63F120006C80A00003703220702455304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
	<01c301c866bf$215c1a50$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <47A7113C.9020508@xxiii.com>

john niolon wrote:
> I'm like Paul... if it's a brand name... Fluke, Triplet, Simpson I'd try to 

I'll 3rd that.  You can get a usable one from Harbor Freight for $4.95.

May also have been left outside & unclaimed because it was already dead!

   -WC

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Feb  4 11:25:22 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:25:22 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] saving a circuit board after flooding?
Message-ID: <020420081825.24175.47A758920009737B00005E6F22007610649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

Some of this might work:
http://www.wikihow.com/Save-a-Wet-Cell-Phone 

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From jdrush at enter.net  Tue Feb  5 21:39:22 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:39:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Which software for this application
In-Reply-To: <01fd01c8669a$f5146390$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
References: <01fd01c8669a$f5146390$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <47A939FA.3090208@enter.net>

Check ebay for "Instant Shed and Shop Design" Its by IMSI. Here's one 
for $4 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170184440541

It works great if your design matches their preconceived notions of how 
a shed or shop should look. I've never delved into it to see if I could 
customize it to make the Taj MaShop I'm dreaming of.

Jon

cornerexit wrote:

> I would like some software that would allow me to design outbuildings for
> our farm - sheds, carports, shops etc.
> 
>  
> 
> I would like said software to allow for providing inputs of the building
> dimensions, material type, framing style, siding/roofing type, and have the
> software create the drawings, and provide a bill of materials - twenty-four
> 8' studs etc. I could then plug in my local material costs for each item and
> have a budget.
> 
>  
> 
> I know I'm asking for a lot here, but what the heck! ;)
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as jdrush at enter.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jdrush at enter.net  Tue Feb  5 21:51:07 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:51:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trickle Chargers - operating Costs
In-Reply-To: <479378C4.7090608@xxiii.com>
References: <20080119190008.DSTJ24798.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
	<47928100.3030807@enter.net> <479378C4.7090608@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <47A93CBB.8090708@enter.net>

I look after it not because it is extra cost per kilowatt hour, my rate 
(almost free) stays the same throughout the day. It is the stiff penalty 
for every kilowatt over the limit I run, even if I only hit it once per 
month. I am constantly on the edge of hitting the penalty just by 
living, so I look after every watt that is consumed by around-the-clock 
devices and have things on timers all over the house. I looked at X10 
devices to further manage household power usage during they day, but 
they are still so expensive that I stopped calculating the payback 
period after I hit a decade.

Jon

Wayne wrote:

> Rush wrote:
> 
>>Would anyone hazard a guess on how a battery minder would work being 
>>cycled on and off every day? I have off-peak power discounts, so I try 
>>to have little or nothing running during the day. So if I got a battery 
>>minder for my lawn mower batteries, I'd put it on a timer to only work 
>>at night.
> 
> 
> Wow, my first thought was "why bother".  The thing can't *possibly* use 
> enough power to even worry about.  A large discount taken off a couple 
> pennies is still a inconsequential amount.  Probably better to spend 
> your effort looking for a small gain in HVAC efficiency, for example.
> 
> Then I did some math.  Damn -- even if it averages a mere 20W 
> continuous, that's 175 KWHr/year or 14.6/month;  which would run me 
> $14.00/yr $1.17/mo.  Hmm, apparently the little crap is worthy of more 
> attention than I thought.

From chad at linuxeg.com  Mon Feb 11 15:25:19 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:25:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anyone out there?
Message-ID: <47B0CB4F.80205@linuxeg.com>

Haven't seen any activity on the shop talk list
for a while so I was wondering what, if anything,
happened.
chad

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Mon Feb 11 15:32:31 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:32:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anyone out there?
In-Reply-To: <47B0CB4F.80205@linuxeg.com>
References: <47B0CB4F.80205@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080211173106.02987c38@pop.nycap.rr.com>

we all froze...

which reminds me.. I have seen people unfreeze pipes with a stick 
welder. this seems fraught with peril to me. Is it a good idea?

Skip

At 05:25 PM 2/11/2008, you wrote:
>Haven't seen any activity on the shop talk list
>for a while so I was wondering what, if anything,
>happened.
>chad
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From chad at linuxeg.com  Mon Feb 11 19:21:28 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:21:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anyone out there?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080211173106.02987c38@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <47B0CB4F.80205@linuxeg.com>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080211173106.02987c38@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47B102A8.4000006@linuxeg.com>

Being from South Florida I have no practical experience
with frozen pipes (though they are predicting a low of 59*
on Wednesday) I would think a carbon arc torch would be
very effective in thawing pipes.
chad

Skip Albright wrote:

>we all froze...
>
>which reminds me.. I have seen people unfreeze pipes with a stick 
>welder. this seems fraught with peril to me. Is it a good idea?
>
>Skip
>
>At 05:25 PM 2/11/2008, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Haven't seen any activity on the shop talk list
>>for a while so I was wondering what, if anything,
>>happened.
>>chad
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>You are subscribed as salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
>>
>>Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>>http://www.team.net/archive
>>    
>>
>
>Nothing is as it appears
>Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Mon Feb 11 21:04:01 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:04:01 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] anyone out there?
References: <47B0CB4F.80205@linuxeg.com>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080211173106.02987c38@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <008501c86d2c$4db58730$97347d80@B50SS>

Strange weather -- it was 80 today in the Los Angeles area. My solar 
electric system generated 28 kWh of electricity today, I got a little 
sunburned riding the Sportster to work.

The lows were down to the 40's just a day or two ago and the furnace was 
running -- I guess the cold front move east.

best,

doug
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Skip Albright" <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] anyone out there?


> we all froze...
>
> which reminds me.. I have seen people unfreeze pipes with a stick
> welder. this seems fraught with peril to me. Is it a good idea?
>
> Skip
>
> At 05:25 PM 2/11/2008, you wrote:
>>Haven't seen any activity on the shop talk list
>>for a while so I was wondering what, if anything,
>>happened.
>>chad
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>You are subscribed as salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
>>
>>Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>>http://www.team.net/archive
>
> Nothing is as it appears
> Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Mon Feb 11 21:19:22 2008
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:19:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anyone out there?
In-Reply-To: <47B0CB4F.80205@linuxeg.com>
References: <47B0CB4F.80205@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <47B11E4A.8010807@comcast.net>

I'm here.  I saw a little chatter recently, but I'm too cold to type.  Getting 
old, I guess.

Donald.

Chadwick E. Labno wrote:
> Haven't seen any activity on the shop talk list
> for a while so I was wondering what, if anything,
> happened.
> chad

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Feb 15 01:54:14 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:54:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] anyone out there?
Message-ID: <OF5F6720C1.B9C6EEA4-ON852573F0.0030E92E-852573F0.0030E932@mail.megageek.com>

Cold?

Sorry, I've been stuck in the middle of the Pacific Ocean for the past 2
weeks.  I just made it to the port of Cabo San Lucas.  It was perfect
weather for the whole time.  I'll be back in NJ this Sat.  8>(  I only
wonder what the weather was like there?



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Feb 15 06:40:16 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:40:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080215084016.00d7a0e0@pop.east.cox.net>

Gang,

Has anyone used the "Grabit" for getting out screws with stripped heads?

http://4grabit.com/


It looks pretty nice, and seems a lot easier to use than the old EZ outs.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Feb 15 06:53:51 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 01:53:51 -1200
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
Message-ID: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>

Sears (Craftsman) has something similar. It works OK (the
Sears version) *If* the only problem is a damaged screw
head. 

However, how often is it the only problem is the screw head
is damaged - vs the screw head is damaged because the screw
itself is corroded into oneness with whatever it is screwed
into and prior attempts to remove said screw have thus
damaged the screw head? In the latter case the 'damaged
screw remover' is less effective. 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

> Has anyone used the "Grabit" for getting out screws with
> stripped heads?
> 
> http://4grabit.com/
> 
> 
> It looks pretty nice, and seems a lot easier to use than
> the old EZ outs.
> 
> John
Login from home, work, school.  Anywhere!

From jdrush at enter.net  Sat Feb 16 22:24:22 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 00:24:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
Message-ID: <47B7C506.9000907@enter.net>

I want to put one or two battery powered fluorescent lights in a closet, 
with a switch that will turn them on when the door is opened. I can't 
seem to find any that are ready made. I know I can probably hack 
together some camping lanterns and a hall effect switch to accomplish 
what I want, but I'd prefer something long and low profile, like an 
under cabinet lights. Appearances and packaging count here. I've googled 
and searched, and googled and searched and come up empty, so I am 
appealing to the power of the list hive mind to see if anyone knows of 
such a beast.

I'm trying to distribute the light down the height of the closet, so as 
many shelves as possible are lit, which is why I'm looking for a long 
fixture. Can a tube of battery powered LEDs, like you sometimes see in 
decorations, provide enough light to illuminate the situation? Or do the 
LEDs require house voltage to work?

Jon

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 22:47:37 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 00:47:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
In-Reply-To: <47B7C506.9000907@enter.net>
References: <47B7C506.9000907@enter.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802162147rfe2497eud1557e246c8ffeab@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 17, 2008 12:24 AM, Rush <jdrush at enter.net> wrote:
> I want to put one or two battery powered fluorescent lights in a closet,
> with a switch that will turn them on when the door is opened. I can't
> seem to find any that are ready made. I know I can probably hack
> together some camping lanterns and a hall effect switch to accomplish
> what I want, but I'd prefer something long and low profile, like an
> under cabinet lights. Appearances and packaging count here. I've googled
> and searched, and googled and searched and come up empty, so I am
> appealing to the power of the list hive mind to see if anyone knows of
> such a beast.
>
> I'm trying to distribute the light down the height of the closet, so as
> many shelves as possible are lit, which is why I'm looking for a long
> fixture. Can a tube of battery powered LEDs, like you sometimes see in
> decorations, provide enough light to illuminate the situation? Or do the
> LEDs require house voltage to work?

I have my doubts that you'll find such a thing.  A door switch
requires wires, and battery operated has the advantage of no wires.
See the problem?  There are any number of door switches that will work
-- easiest if it's a normal door, but they exist for sliding closet
doors too.  They're just switches, so there's no reason you couldn't
wire them to something, assuming the battery powered do hickey is easy
to modify.

There are battery powered LEDs.  LEDs are low voltage devices, so
they're well suited for that.

It occurs to me that you might be over thinking your problem.  Are you
worried that someone will turn the light on, and then forget to shut
it off, and run the batteries down?  There are battery lights for
closets and the like that have a timer in them.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Feb 17 06:57:23 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:57:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
In-Reply-To: <47B7C506.9000907@enter.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080217085723.00a30870@pop.east.cox.net>

At 12:24 AM 2/17/2008 -0500, Rush wrote:

>I want to put one or two battery powered fluorescent lights in a closet, 
>with a switch that will turn them on when the door is opened. I can't 
>seem to find any that are ready made. I know I can probably hack 
>together some camping lanterns and a hall effect switch to accomplish 
>what I want,

Jon,

Instead of a Hall effect, which is active, and will draw power all the time,
why not use a micro switch.

You can take any light you like, especially if it has a switch on it, and 
then run some wire 18 to 20 gauge should be large enough, in parallel with
the lamps switch, to a micro switch.  You could run the wire along the inside
top of the closet so it would not be very visable unless you were looking
for it.  Then mount the microswitch so that it is in the off position when
the closet is closed.  As the door opens, it would allow the microswitch
to open, thus completing the circuit and turning on the light.  This would
work very well for a battery operated light.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Feb 17 08:58:58 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:58:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
In-Reply-To: <47B7C506.9000907@enter.net>
Message-ID: <004a01c8717e$074ca2a0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

I just saw exactly what you are looking for at Menard's....hope you have one
in your area....

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Rush
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:24 AM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light


I want to put one or two battery powered fluorescent lights in a closet,
with a switch that will turn them on when the door is opened. I can't
seem to find any that are ready made. I know I can probably hack
together some camping lanterns and a hall effect switch to accomplish
what I want, but I'd prefer something long and low profile, like an
under cabinet lights. Appearances and packaging count here. I've googled
and searched, and googled and searched and come up empty, so I am
appealing to the power of the list hive mind to see if anyone knows of
such a beast.

I'm trying to distribute the light down the height of the closet, so as
many shelves as possible are lit, which is why I'm looking for a long
fixture. Can a tube of battery powered LEDs, like you sometimes see in
decorations, provide enough light to illuminate the situation? Or do the
LEDs require house voltage to work?

Jon
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 07:45:33 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:45:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
In-Reply-To: <47B7C506.9000907@enter.net>
Message-ID: <132060.36768.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Check out dealextreme.com

For the price of the cheap imported led stuff they
have, it might be worth some experimentation. I think
you could get away with all of the stuff for less than
$20 if you search for a really good deal. I think the 
most expensive part would be the magnetic micro switch
that you could wire in place of the one on the unit.

Regards,
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


--- Rush <jdrush at enter.net> wrote:

> I want to put one or two battery powered fluorescent lights in a closet, 
> with a switch that will turn them on when the door is opened. I can't 
> seem to find any that are ready made. I know I can probably hack 
> together some camping lanterns and a hall effect switch to accomplish 
> what I want, but I'd prefer something long and low profile, like an 
> under cabinet lights. Appearances and packaging count here. I've googled 
> and searched, and googled and searched and come up empty, so I am 
> appealing to the power of the list hive mind to see if anyone knows of 
> such a beast.
> 
(snip)


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From mbarre at juno.com  Mon Feb 18 08:20:19 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:20:19 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
Message-ID: <20080218.102019.22345.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

Harborfreight has a small motion activated LED light for a couple of bucks.
You might be able to get enough light with a few of those...
Matt

-- Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:
Check out dealextreme.com

For the price of the cheap imported led stuff they
have, it might be worth some experimentation. I think
you could get away with all of the stuff for less than
$20 if you search for a really good deal. I think the
most expensive part would be the magnetic micro switch
that you could wire in place of the one on the unit.

Regards,
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


--- Rush <jdrush at enter.net> wrote:

> I want to put one or two battery powered fluorescent lights in a closet,
> with a switch that will turn them on when the door is opened. I can't
> seem to find any that are ready made. I know I can probably hack
> together some camping lanterns and a hall effect switch to accomplish
> what I want, but I'd prefer something long and low profile, like an
> under cabinet lights. Appearances and packaging count here. I've googled
> and searched, and googled and searched and come up empty, so I am
> appealing to the power of the list hive mind to see if anyone knows of
> such a beast.
>
(snip)


     ________________________________________________________________________
____________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive


_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on java training and make up to $150K/ year.
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A0ND1mRtb9cNIdRveNc1Y/

From 57healey at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 10:25:42 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:25:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
In-Reply-To: <132060.36768.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <47B7C506.9000907@enter.net>
	<132060.36768.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0802180925g7e86b6dbtf50e6369a01114bc@mail.gmail.com>

I just ordered a bunch of camera stuff from them.  Chinese New Years has
slowed the order down, but they shipped yesterday.  Have you bought from
them?

On Feb 18, 2008 8:45 AM, Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Check out dealextreme.com
>
> For the price of the cheap imported led stuff they
> have, it might be worth some experimentation. I think
> you could get away with all of the stuff for less than
> $20 if you search for a really good deal. I think the
> most expensive part would be the magnetic micro switch
> that you could wire in place of the one on the unit.
>
> Regards,
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com
> --
> Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
> 1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Feb 18 15:14:38 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:14:38 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does anyone have "a great place to buy casters" link?
References: <01fd01c8669a$f5146390$0201a8c0@Waynehouseputer>
	<47A939FA.3090208@enter.net>
Message-ID: <004a01c8727b$a6f5a740$ef281aac@behavioral.com>

Great as in heavy duty at low prices?

Thanks,
Arvid

From robolane at sbcglobal.net  Mon Feb 18 16:02:07 2008
From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (ROBERT LANE)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:02:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Castors
Message-ID: <463433.41020.qm@web82006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For a good buy on Castors try ebay, Surplus Center, also Craiglist.
 
CATCH YOU LATER,
ROBO

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Feb 18 16:51:01 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:51:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cast(e)rs
In-Reply-To: <463433.41020.qm@web82006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <463433.41020.qm@web82006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47BA19E5.6050605@xxiii.com>

ROBERT LANE wrote:
> For a good buy on Castors try ebay, Surplus Center, also Craiglist.

The wheel-thigies are usually spelled with an E, eg: caster.  Google 
that and you'll have better luck.  HarborFunk lists five pages of 'em on 
their site.

   -Wayne

From bill at gingerich.us  Mon Feb 18 17:45:53 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:45:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Looking for Scott Hall
Message-ID: <005c01c87290$c858d0a0$64dea8c0@shack2>

If Scott Hall is out there, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

 

Bill Gingerich

Newalla, OK

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Feb 18 19:08:54 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:08:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Closet Light
In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f0802180925g7e86b6dbtf50e6369a01114bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <867203.35973.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've done about three orders from dealextreme and I
have been pretty satisfied. Where else can you get
USB-powered electrically-heated gloves for such a low
price?

Doug


--- Patton Dickson <57healey at gmail.com> wrote:

> I just ordered a bunch of camera stuff from them. 
> Chinese New Years has
> slowed the order down, but they shipped yesterday. 
> Have you bought from
> them?
> 
> On Feb 18, 2008 8:45 AM, Battmain
> <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Check out dealextreme.com

From berry at kerch.com  Thu Feb 21 16:55:37 2008
From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:55:37 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>
References: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>
Message-ID: <47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>

ejrussell at mebtel.net wrote:
> However, how often is it the only problem is the screw head
> is damaged - vs the screw head is damaged because the screw
> itself is corroded into oneness with whatever it is screwed
> into and prior attempts to remove said screw have thus
> damaged the screw head? In the latter case the 'damaged
> screw remover' is less effective. 
>   
Good point.  From time to time I've found various degrees of "force" to 
work, roughly in order:

* a screwdriver
* a Very Big Screwdriver
* a Very Big scredriver and  vice-grips
* penetrating oil (appropriate for  the material; kroil for steel, 
"Mouse Milk" for aluminium)
* penetrating oil and an impact driver
* heat
*Heat, penetrating oil (not at the same time!) and an impact driver
* drill for and use ez-out or other screw extractor

and finally, when even the ez-out snaps, drill out the whole sucker and 
clean up with a tap.  If very bad, drill for the next size bigger, tap, 
and note in the logbook.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Feb 21 17:39:24 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:39:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>
References: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>
	<47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802211639p436628e5la1a00cf60f02cdec@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Berry Kercheval <berry at kerch.com> wrote:
> ejrussell at mebtel.net wrote:
>  > However, how often is it the only problem is the screw head
>  > is damaged - vs the screw head is damaged because the screw
>  > itself is corroded into oneness with whatever it is screwed
>  > into and prior attempts to remove said screw have thus
>  > damaged the screw head? In the latter case the 'damaged
>  > screw remover' is less effective.
>  >
>  Good point.  From time to time I've found various degrees of "force" to
>  work, roughly in order:
>
>  * a screwdriver
>  * a Very Big Screwdriver
>  * a Very Big scredriver and  vice-grips
>  * penetrating oil (appropriate for  the material; kroil for steel,
>  "Mouse Milk" for aluminium)
>  * penetrating oil and an impact driver
>  * heat
>  *Heat, penetrating oil (not at the same time!) and an impact driver
>  * drill for and use ez-out or other screw extractor

My rough order for any screw is

* hose down with penetrating oil.
* screwdriver/wrench
* hammer
* more penetrating oil
* bigger screwdriver
* bigger hammer
* swear
* air chisel

The chisel works really well on anything that's large enough diameter,
particularly if you're going to replace the damn thing the screw goes
into.  I have a better sucess rate with it than I do with drills and
easy outs.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From berry at kerch.com  Thu Feb 21 17:55:48 2008
From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:55:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40802211639p436628e5la1a00cf60f02cdec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>	
	<47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>
	<2400a5d40802211639p436628e5la1a00cf60f02cdec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BE1D94.4000205@kerch.com>

David Scheidt wrote:
> The chisel works really well on anything that's large enough diameter,
> particularly if you're going to replace the damn thing the screw goes
> into.  
Yeah that woudl work,  sometimes you have to keep both pieces; once I 
had to remove something like 28 screws, all at least 40 years old, from 
an airplane wing that held the landing gear in place; it was bad enough 
that the shock absorber bushings I was trying to access were $800 a 
side, if I had damaged any of the parts it would have gotten expensive!  
(That's why I no longer own a plane, by the way...)

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Feb 21 18:08:33 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:08:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>
References: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>
	<47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360802211708w3e126dbav8a0d82ce1c100d1d@mail.gmail.com>

*I've saved a couple of bad stripped screws in the last few months with this
method:*
**
*1.  soak for reasonable time with a penetrant*
**
*2.  pound the head with a carefully chosen punch or air hammer.*
**
*3.  cut a screwdriver slit in the head with a small  abrasive disc in a
Dremel.*

*4.  Apply a screwdriver & know you've done all you can do.*
**
*Didn't work?*
**
*5.  Then, having avoided breaking off a very hard broken easy-out, drill
out the screw and retap.*

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Feb 21 18:12:30 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:12:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <47BE1D94.4000205@kerch.com>
References: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>
	<47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>
	<2400a5d40802211639p436628e5la1a00cf60f02cdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BE1D94.4000205@kerch.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802211712n6ab4356sf8ec582d9d99b19f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Berry Kercheval <berry at kerch.com> wrote:
> David Scheidt wrote:
>  > The chisel works really well on anything that's large enough diameter,
>  > particularly if you're going to replace the damn thing the screw goes
>  > into.
>  Yeah that woudl work,  sometimes you have to keep both pieces; once I
>  had to remove something like 28 screws, all at least 40 years old, from
>  an airplane wing that held the landing gear in place; it was bad enough
>  that the shock absorber bushings I was trying to access were $800 a
>  side, if I had damaged any of the parts it would have gotten expensive!
>  (That's why I no longer own a plane, by the way...)

Yeah, well, I don't work on airplanes.  When someone is paying you
(well, the shop...) $70 an hour, it quickly becomes not worth it to
try and save something like a brake rotor or a shock absorber.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Feb 21 19:01:45 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:01:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20080215084016.00d7a0e0@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20080215084016.00d7a0e0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <0JWM00FALAZ05TP0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

One trick I've used for this problem is valve grinding compound.  Put 
a little on the screwdriver, and the grit helps keep it from slipping 
out of the screw.  There is actually a product made for this purpose, 
but it is the same as valve grinding compound as far as I can 
tell.  It isn't a miracle, but just one more little trick that can 
sometimes give you enough extra grab to get a screw out.  

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Feb 21 19:33:59 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:33:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>
Message-ID: <193510.83655.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I recently removed the door hinges of a '31 Ford
Fordor.  That meant removing twenty-four really tight
5/16" fine-threaded flat-head screws that had been in
place for 75 years.

Door hinge screws are always a colossal pain to
remove.

I got one of those porta-torch oxy-acetylene sets, and
it is incredibly effective for loosening stuck screws.
 The thing has paid for itself, and I haven't even
actually welded anything with it yet!

Even so, some of the screws required Kroil, the torch,
and an impact screwdriver (and I wrecked a couple of
screwdriver blades...)

Doug


--- Berry Kercheval <berry at kerch.com> wrote:

> From time to time I've found various
> degrees of "force" to 
> work, roughly in order:
> 
> * a screwdriver
> * a Very Big Screwdriver
> * a Very Big scredriver and  vice-grips
> * penetrating oil (appropriate for  the material;
> kroil for steel, 
> "Mouse Milk" for aluminium)
> * penetrating oil and an impact driver
> * heat
> *Heat, penetrating oil (not at the same time!) and
> an impact driver
> * drill for and use ez-out or other screw extractor
> 
> and finally, when even the ez-out snaps, drill out
> the whole sucker and 
> clean up with a tap.  If very bad, drill for the
> next size bigger, tap, 
> and note in the logbook.

From lee at automate-it.com  Thu Feb 21 20:59:28 2008
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:59:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Casters
In-Reply-To: <47BA19E5.6050605@xxiii.com>
References: <463433.41020.qm@web82006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47BA19E5.6050605@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <3412.12.181.201.221.1203652768.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

for casters, try "American Science and Surplus" - http://www.sciplus.com/

just search for casters, you'll find some random ones cheap.

This is a fun site to browse, lots of junk, not much science, but I've picked
up a number of junky things like dental picks, hemastats, tweezers, etc. that
you don't mind bending or breaking since you didn't pay much for them....

 - Lee

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Feb 22 10:40:40 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:40:40 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
Message-ID: <022220081740.17519.47BF09180006C05B0000446F22069984999D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Berry Kercheval <berry at kerch.com>
> * drill for and use ez-out or other screw extractor

Use a left-hand twist drill instead of the typical right-hand twist drill.  Don't forget you need to run your drill motor in reverse. 

Standard drills only tighten screws unless you are lucky enough to be able to drill from the back side of the part.

I have found that in the cases where a left-hand drill did not remove the bolt due to torque and vibration, the EZ-out doesn't work anyway and I wind up having to retap.

From berry at kerch.com  Fri Feb 22 12:31:57 2008
From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:31:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stripped Screw heads
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40802211712n6ab4356sf8ec582d9d99b19f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47b5996f.a.8fb.1783057580@ml2.myemail.com>	
	<47BE0F79.5070607@kerch.com>	
	<2400a5d40802211639p436628e5la1a00cf60f02cdec@mail.gmail.com>	
	<47BE1D94.4000205@kerch.com>
	<2400a5d40802211712n6ab4356sf8ec582d9d99b19f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BF232D.3070702@kerch.com>

David Scheidt wrote:
> Yeah, well, I don't work on airplanes. When someone is paying you
> (well, the shop...) $70 an hour, it quickly becomes not worth it to
> try and save something like a brake rotor or a shock absorber.
>
>
>   
Neither do I, anymore.  But I sure agree that one should trade off the 
value of one's time versus the value of the parts in question.  Changing 
a brake rotor on a 2004 Hyundai?  Chop it off and move on.  Fixing a 
lever shock on a 1924 Rolls-Royce Phanton II?  A little more caution is 
indicated.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Feb 22 15:04:45 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:04:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting fiberglass?
Message-ID: <CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>

Since FIFO doesn't work so well for home renovations, I'm going to  
have to cut a shower enclosure in half to remove it. It's made of  
fiberglass. How nasty will it get if I use the sawzall? Will the  
fibers be big enough to land on the ground in a few minutes or will  
there be a microscopic carcinogenic haze throughout the house for a  
month? I have a good respirator and shop vac, but no good way to  
contain the debris.

thanks,
jim

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Fri Feb 22 15:18:16 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:18:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting fiberglass?
In-Reply-To: <CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <003101c875a0$d5bb2cd0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

Gee I hope nobody steps up and tells horror stories. I've cut an awful lot
of FG over the years and rarely used a mask....

Hell, I can recall when a major composite suppliers actually sold asbestos
fibers as a thickening agent! Fortunately, I never used any of that stuff

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Jim Franklin
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 5:05 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting fiberglass?


Since FIFO doesn't work so well for home renovations, I'm going to
have to cut a shower enclosure in half to remove it. It's made of
fiberglass. How nasty will it get if I use the sawzall? Will the
fibers be big enough to land on the ground in a few minutes or will
there be a microscopic carcinogenic haze throughout the house for a
month? I have a good respirator and shop vac, but no good way to
contain the debris.

thanks,
jim
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Fri Feb 22 17:16:09 2008
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:16:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting fiberglass?
References: <CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <002201c875b1$6a14d330$6b6a33d8@CPQ12949640186>

The fiberglass particles are not carcinogenic.  They are nothing more than a 
particulate irritant as I recall.

Wear a good respirator, since you have one.  The shop vac, that's as likely 
to kick things up ad they don't typically have god filters.  Plastic trash 
bags are a very good way to contain the debris.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting fiberglass?


> Since FIFO doesn't work so well for home renovations, I'm going to
> have to cut a shower enclosure in half to remove it. It's made of
> fiberglass. How nasty will it get if I use the sawzall? Will the
> fibers be big enough to land on the ground in a few minutes or will
> there be a microscopic carcinogenic haze throughout the house for a
> month? I have a good respirator and shop vac, but no good way to
> contain the debris.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sat Feb 23 08:25:39 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 10:25:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cutting fiberglass?
In-Reply-To: <47C037C8.8010707@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>
	<47C037C8.8010707@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <E678B6DD-259D-499C-AFAC-D72228BA9257@groupwbench.org>

I'm happy to report that the cutting went well. The "demolition"  
sawzall blade (which will shake you like a dozen overcaffeinated pit  
bulls if it catches on something it can't cut) cut the 'glass into  
chunks big enough that there was no floating debris. It was over in 2  
minutes.

Thanks for the responses, especially the idea for enclosing the saw &  
cutting zone in a plastic sheet.

jim

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Sat Feb 23 15:05:12 2008
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (RandE)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:05:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
References: <CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <004001c87668$2bab92c0$6400a8c0@poweredge>

I'm replacing an old trash compactor.  It still seems to work but the wife
says it doesn't match the rest of the kitchen.  It was here when we bought
the house and we've made some updates so it has to go.  If I move it out the
shop, any ideas what it could be used for?

Thanks.
Randy

From pethier at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 20:53:43 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 03:53:43 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
Message-ID: <022420080353.8741.47C0EA47000101C60000222522007358349D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

> I'm replacing an old trash compactor.  It still seems to work but the wife
> says it doesn't match the rest of the kitchen.  It was here when we bought
> the house and we've made some updates so it has to go.  If I move it out the
> shop, any ideas what it could be used for?

Compacting trash?

How long would you be able to toss shop trash in there before having to empty it?


--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Feb 23 21:00:41 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:00:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
In-Reply-To: <022420080353.8741.47C0EA47000101C60000222522007358349D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <022420080353.8741.47C0EA47000101C60000222522007358349D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802232000xf09d740s9ebb80a51d2fde72@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 10:53 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> > I'm replacing an old trash compactor.  It still seems to work but the wife
>  > says it doesn't match the rest of the kitchen.  It was here when we bought
>  > the house and we've made some updates so it has to go.  If I move it out the
>  > shop, any ideas what it could be used for?
>
>  Compacting trash?

How boring!

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pethier at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 21:15:12 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 04:15:12 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
Message-ID: <022420080415.6186.47C0EF50000A35890000182A22058864429D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

> On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 10:53 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> > > any ideas what it could be used for?
> >  Compacting trash?
> How boring!
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

OK, so I'm not Red Green.


--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Feb 24 07:26:43 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:26:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
In-Reply-To: <004001c87668$2bab92c0$6400a8c0@poweredge>
References: <CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>
	<004001c87668$2bab92c0$6400a8c0@poweredge>
Message-ID: <47C17EA3.7030901@xxiii.com>

RandE wrote:
> I'm replacing an old trash compactor.  It still seems to work but the wife
> says it doesn't match the rest of the kitchen.  It was here when we bought
> the house and we've made some updates so it has to go.  If I move it out the
> shop, any ideas what it could be used for?

Wow, that's interesting...  in the 1970s & 80s compactors were quite the 
popular item in kitchens of high-dollar homes;  but I haven't seen one 
on display at the fancy (expensive) local appliance store, let alone 
Lowes in *years*.

The folks that are now my in-laws had one 20 years ago, and I remember 
thinking it was rather unimpressive, even pointless.

IIRC, the things just have a screw-driven compactor plate.  Can't think 
of anything fun or crazy to convert it into.  It didn't even crunch 
trash that well.

Just looked at Lowes.com and the things are *expensive*.  If yours still 
works and the wife wants to continue to have one, maybe you could update 
the faceplate?  www.Sears.com has a good appliance parts site -- might 
be able to get a different color/finish panel.  Or just spray paint it. 
  Or various Ebay sellers have "faux stainless steel" contact paper 
stuff for appliances.

   -Wayne

From arvidj at visi.com  Sun Feb 24 07:28:58 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:28:58 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
References: <022420080415.6186.47C0EF50000A35890000182A22058864429D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002601c876f1$98612b80$80a8a8c0@dellc84024>

>> > > any ideas what it could be used for?
>> >  Compacting trash?
>> How boring!
>> David Scheidt
>> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> OK, so I'm not Red Green.

Ok, I'll bite on a Red Green theme - a bearing press. You get everything 
lined up on the shaft - duct tape is appropriate for holding everything in 
its proper place -  carefully close the door so it doesn't tip over, push 
the button, done. Very conventient if pressing bearings off as it was 
probably going in the trash anyway.

Arvid 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Feb 24 07:34:35 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:34:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
In-Reply-To: <47C17EA3.7030901@xxiii.com>
References: <004001c87668$2bab92c0$6400a8c0@poweredge>
	<CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>
	<004001c87668$2bab92c0$6400a8c0@poweredge>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080224093435.00a4a5b0@pop.east.cox.net>

>RandE wrote:
>> I'm replacing an old trash compactor.  It still seems to work but the wife
>> says it doesn't match the rest of the kitchen.  It was here when we bought
>> the house and we've made some updates so it has to go.  If I move it out
the
>> shop, any ideas what it could be used for?

I'd say you're on your way to a Mr. Fusion.  You can not get more fuel in
less space.  All you'll need is the flux capacitor, and I guess a Delorean
an you'll be all set!  

If you set the flux capacitor up in the house, maybe you can time travel
the house.  I just don't see how you'll get the house up the the required
88mph.


John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Feb 24 07:49:29 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:49:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
In-Reply-To: <002601c876f1$98612b80$80a8a8c0@dellc84024>
References: <022420080415.6186.47C0EF50000A35890000182A22058864429D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<002601c876f1$98612b80$80a8a8c0@dellc84024>
Message-ID: <47C183F9.90700@xxiii.com>

Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> Ok, I'll bite on a Red Green theme - a bearing press. You get everything 
> lined up on the shaft - duct tape is appropriate for holding everything in 

Good idea, but I don't think the things even get close to the force of a 
hydraulic press.

Maybe enough for a 6 pack can crusher that auto-dumps into your 
recycling bin?  A perfect companion to your beer launcher: 
http://www.beerlauncher.com/

  -Wayne

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Sun Feb 24 09:43:23 2008
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:43:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trash compactor uses
In-Reply-To: <004001c87668$2bab92c0$6400a8c0@poweredge>
References: <CC91D2C0-FA1F-4F2D-AD3B-EE14FF659EEC@groupwbench.org>
	<004001c87668$2bab92c0$6400a8c0@poweredge>
Message-ID: <20080224164323.GA67230@sackheads.org>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 04:05:12PM -0600, RandE wrote:
> I'm replacing an old trash compactor.  It still seems to work but the wife
> says it doesn't match the rest of the kitchen.  It was here when we bought
> the house and we've made some updates so it has to go.  If I move it out the
> shop, any ideas what it could be used for?

If it compresses tightly enough, maybe it could be modified to make firelogs 
using wax and sawdust.

How is the compactor constructed?  Does it use a screw drive (likely) or 
some sort of hydraulic press?  If hydraulic, you could use the cylinder and
pump for all sorts of things.  A small log splitter or shop press comes to 
mind.  

If it's a screw drive, you could always extract the motor for use around
the shop.  I'm guessing it's probably around 1/2 HP?  If it has built-in
gear reduction, maybe mount a sharpening wheel (like you'd get at rockler.com)
and sharpen your tools.  If no gear reduction, maybe a stand-alone grinder
or buffer, drum sander, exhaust fan...

Jimmie

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Sun Feb 24 12:31:36 2008
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:31:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
Message-ID: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>

I don't have a part number or a spec -- these are light bulbs that go  
inside switches in a 95 Volkswagen.  Dealers will sell a new switch  
for $160; vwvortex will tell me "dude! that's a bummer!".

So if I'm looking for a little bulb, where should I go?

It's a very small bulb -- not an LED; two leads sticking out the  
bottom, about 3/4" long.  It's soldered to the switch.

If I had to guess on specs, I'd say 12v/1w 12v/.5w; though it could  
be even lower wattage.

Ideas?

Thanks,
Matt

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Feb 24 12:42:28 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:42:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
References: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <0JWR005H5DF5NG10@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

They shouldn't be that hard to come by.  Check hobby supply 
places.  They use them in model RR and doll houses.  Even Radio 
Shack.  Probably not in stock, though.  Lately all they really sell 
is cell phones.  Bummer.  Search for "grain of wheat" or "grain of 
rice".  That's what they call some of those things.  Good luck.

-Steve

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Feb 24 12:44:13 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:44:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <0JWR005H5DF5NG10@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
	<0JWR005H5DF5NG10@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <0JWR000Z8DHTHZ30@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Here's one example:  http://www.hobbylinc.com/prods/umb.htm

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Feb 24 12:45:17 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:45:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <001001c8771d$cb641570$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

What about those "grain of wheat" bulbs that model railroaders use?....I
have no idea what they are, but 12v is a distinct possibility.....

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Matt Trebelhorn
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:32 PM
To: shoptalk
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs


I don't have a part number or a spec -- these are light bulbs that go
inside switches in a 95 Volkswagen.  Dealers will sell a new switch
for $160; vwvortex will tell me "dude! that's a bummer!".

So if I'm looking for a little bulb, where should I go?

It's a very small bulb -- not an LED; two leads sticking out the
bottom, about 3/4" long.  It's soldered to the switch.

If I had to guess on specs, I'd say 12v/1w 12v/.5w; though it could
be even lower wattage.

Ideas?

Thanks,
Matt
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Sun Feb 24 13:22:12 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:22:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
Message-ID: <002a01c87722$f1a8e3f0$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

Had a guy plant some trees for me. In digging one of the holes he hit the
plastic conduit that carries the wire for the pool pump.   The wires were
not broken just the conduit. 
Any suggestions on how to repair this with out digging up the whole line?

Bob 

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Feb 24 13:22:50 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:22:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <002a01c87722$f1a8e3f0$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
References: <002a01c87722$f1a8e3f0$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <0JWR00IO0FAY0WO0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Can't you just cut out the bad section and replace it?  And I'm very 
jealous that you live somewhere where you can plant trees in February.

-Steve

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 13:56:19 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:56:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <0JWR00IO0FAY0WO0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <002a01c87722$f1a8e3f0$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
	<0JWR00IO0FAY0WO0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802241256k5f6e6bd9r17bff2af9e897274@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
> Can't you just cut out the bad section and replace it?  And I'm very
>  jealous that you live somewhere where you can plant trees in February.
>
>

You'd have to pull the wires out for that.  Was this guy an actual
tree service, or just some guy with a shovel?  Because I think the
answer is, you don't, and his insurance company buys you a trench,
conduit and fixes the landscaping.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Feb 24 14:12:15 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:12:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40802241256k5f6e6bd9r17bff2af9e897274@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <002a01c87722$f1a8e3f0$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
	<0JWR00IO0FAY0WO0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2400a5d40802241256k5f6e6bd9r17bff2af9e897274@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0JWR00CY5HKMXP30@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Yes indeed.  I guess I wasn't thinking that pulling the wires out is 
such a big deal.  You can always fish them through.  That's how they 
got in there in the first place, right?  Same job if you replace the 
whole thing.  You can try attaching the end of the wires to a pull 
line.  Pull them back to where the break is.  Then disconnect the 
wires from the line and section in a new piece of conduit.  Reattach 
the wires to the line.  Glue in the repair, preferably with the line 
at the glue site rather than the wire.  Then pull the line back to 
get the wires back where they belong.  Of course, this may not be 
worth the hassle if you have a decent fish tape.  Just pull the wires 
and fish them through when finished.  And of course I'm assuming that 
for whatever reason the tree dude isn't going to fix it.

At 03:56 PM 2/24/2008, David Scheidt wrote:

>You'd have to pull the wires out for that.  Was this guy an actual
>tree service, or just some guy with a shovel?  Because I think the
>answer is, you don't, and his insurance company buys you a trench,
>conduit and fixes the landscaping.

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 24 16:07:27 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:07:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk question
Message-ID: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>

Hi guys,



I have a 2003 GMC Savana (4.3L V6, 2,500 lb payload) van that I just love. I
have had zero problems with it and it can get 20.5 MPG (not bad for a 4,500 lb
beast with the aerodynamics of a sheet of plywood).



Just last week, though, when I started it up, the fuel gauge showed empty, the
chimes sounded, etc., though I knew I had about a = tank. After driving for a
bit, the gauge went up to = tank again. Next day, there was a repeat of the
same performance.



My guess is that there is a loose connection from the sending unit in the gas
tank or the sender in the gas tank is failing.



I looked at the GMC shop manual, it says:

1.      Drain tank

2.      Drop tank

3.      Remove sender

4.      Test

5.      Replace



Now I will check all the connections I can find short of the above procedure,
but I thought this clever group may have some ideas for how to test the sender
in place, e.g.,

1.      Meter the circuit from the dashboard connector

2.    What resistance I should look for

3.      Etc.



Now I will drain and drop the tank if I need to, but I will be doing this by
myself, it is a 31 gallon tank, I would have to pump the tank to drain it, I
am getting older and dislocated my knee under my wife's car two weeks ago,
etc. It would be a lot easier if I could identify the source of the problem
without doing all of this.



Legitimate shop talk topic:

By the way, regarding the dislocated knee - this is maybe something we should
discuss. I was under my wife's car in the garage just doing an oil change and
changing out a MAF sensor, when while on my back and starting to roll to my
left to climb off from the floor, my right knee dislocated (first time ever
for me, I have had zero health issues to this point). I was not on a creeper
(probably will be next time), and found myself flat on my back, under a car
with a dislocated knee. The garage is located as such that I would not be able
to "yell" for help and I was immobilized. I thought, "This cannot be good."



I was able to pop my knee back into place and get out from under the car, sore
and wiser, but I did think about maybe I should keep my cell phone on me while
under cars or should take some other precautions.



Any ideas? What would you do if you found yourself immobilized while under a
car in your shop? What precautions do you take while working alone in the
shop?



best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XHL 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sun Feb 24 16:25:31 2008
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:25:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <001001c8771d$cb641570$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <001001c8771d$cb641570$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <47C1FCEB.6010706@comcast.net>

But remember that the "12V" in a vehicle is actually 13.2+ under operating 
conditions.  And can get higher.

Were I in your shoes, I'd find an operating lamp, measure the current it draws 
while operating at nominal battery voltage, then choose a 16V lamp that would 
have that much power at 12V.

HTH,
Donald.

Gerald Brazil wrote:
> What about those "grain of wheat" bulbs that model railroaders use?....I
> have no idea what they are, but 12v is a distinct possibility.....
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
> Of Matt Trebelhorn
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:32 PM
> To: shoptalk
> Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
> 
> 
> I don't have a part number or a spec -- these are light bulbs that go
> inside switches in a 95 Volkswagen.  Dealers will sell a new switch
> for $160; vwvortex will tell me "dude! that's a bummer!".
> 
> So if I'm looking for a little bulb, where should I go?
> 
> It's a very small bulb -- not an LED; two leads sticking out the
> bottom, about 3/4" long.  It's soldered to the switch.
> 
> If I had to guess on specs, I'd say 12v/1w 12v/.5w; though it could
> be even lower wattage.
> 
> Ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Feb 24 16:58:47 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:58:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <OF8730496E.3BAC32CD-ON852573F9.008376C3-852573FA.000040F3@mail.megageek.com>

>Any ideas? What would you do if you found yourself immobilized while 
under a
>car in your shop? What precautions do you take while working alone in the
>shop?

I'll do you one better.  I was in one of my back fields and my dozer track 
came loose.  I was putting it back on the pulley when my gloved hand got 
caught between the track and pulley.  I was about 200m from my house (but 
I lived alone back then.)  To make matters worst, the tractor was idling 
and I could reach the kill switch to shut it off. 

If I wasn't able to work my hand out, I guess it would have been a few day 
before anyone found me.


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Feb 24 17:01:41 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:01:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <20080225000142.VZPG4595.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>

> Just last week, though, when I started it up, the fuel gauge 
> showed empty, the chimes sounded, etc., though I knew I had 
> about a = tank. After driving for a bit, the gauge went up to 
> = tank again. Next day, there was a repeat of the same performance.

So, check the resistance when it's working, and compare that to when it's
not.

> I would have 
> to pump the tank to drain it

I used one of those little Facet fuel pumps, powered by my battery charger,
when I went through this with the wife's Caravan some years ago.  Worked
pretty good, only problem was what to do with the fuel.  I managed to fill
all my other gas tanks, then replace the pump with perhaps 30 pounds of fuel
still in the tank.

> What would you do if you found yourself 
> immobilized while under a car in your shop?

Truly immobilized, I would have to wait for someone to come looking for me.
But with just a dislocated knee, I'd probably manage to crawl somewhere to
get help.  Long time ago, I drove myself home in a car with manual shift,
with a dislocated right shoulder.  Had to reach through the steering wheel
with my left hand to shift as my right arm was totally useless (used my left
to lay it in my lap).  Fortunately a column shift; with a floor shift I
might have had to drive home in 2nd gear.

> What precautions 
> do you take while working alone in the shop?

I'm still pretty much limited to trying to avoid injury; next time an engine
falls I'll jump back and watch it fall !  But it is nice to once again have
someone that I know will come looking for me within 8-10 hours at the most.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Feb 24 17:16:58 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:16:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
Message-ID: <200802250016.m1P0GwL2020544@moose.dimebank.com>

What kind of conduit is so brittle that it could be broken by a shovel?
If the wires are running in sch 40 PVC, there are repair sections
that can be glued around the white pipe.

From Malaboge at aol.com  Sun Feb 24 18:00:20 2008
From: Malaboge at aol.com (Malaboge at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:00:20 EST
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
	question
Message-ID: <bfc.2d8fe4ef.34f36d24@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/24/08 3:09:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
dirtbeard at pacbell.net writes:

I have a 2003 GMC Savana (4.3L V6, 2,500 lb payload) van that I just love. I
have had zero problems with it and it can get 20.5 MPG (not bad for a 4,500 lb
beast with the aerodynamics of a sheet of plywood).



Just last week, though, when I started it up, the fuel gauge showed empty, the
chimes sounded, etc., though I knew I had about a = tank. After driving for a
bit, the gauge went up to = tank again. Next day, there was a repeat of the
same performance.



My guess is that there is a loose connection from the sending unit in the gas
tank or the sender in the gas tank is failing.

Hold that thought...
 
I have a late model Z 06 Vette and all the Vette owners for the last ten 
years or so have complained of this issue.  Believe it or not, the "fix" is to run 
a couple bottles of Techron thru the system and that seems to release the 
grip of the little gremlins holdin the sender.  Since you have one of the 
General's products, it will p'rolly work for you too!
 
As to havin a car fall on you, or whatever, ...I live alone and would not be 
missed for weeks...Prayer and happy thoughts are my only ally. "Safety fast" 
was the motto for MG for years...mine is safety  always!
 
No gas shortage at my house...OH? not that kind?....
                      Nick in Nor Cal



**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.      
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Sun Feb 24 18:10:27 2008
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:10:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
References: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <47C21583.4090506@snet.net>

I like All Electronics for all sorts of electronic things.  Look here:

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/LP-6/320/14V_T-1_(3MM)_LAMP_W__10%22#34;_INSULATED_WIRE_LEADS_.html

Matt Trebelhorn wrote:
> I don't have a part number or a spec -- these are light bulbs that go  
> inside switches in a 95 Volkswagen.  Dealers will sell a new switch  
> for $160; vwvortex will tell me "dude! that's a bummer!".
>
> So if I'm looking for a little bulb, where should I go?
>
> It's a very small bulb -- not an LED; two leads sticking out the  
> bottom, about 3/4" long.  It's soldered to the switch.
>
> If I had to guess on specs, I'd say 12v/1w 12v/.5w; though it could  
> be even lower wattage.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt

From shiples at comcast.net  Sun Feb 24 18:15:16 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:15:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <20080225000142.VZPG4595.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080224165453.00bc31e0@mail.comcast.net>

> > What would you do if you found yourself
> > immobilized while under a car in your shop?
Proper safety practice says someone should always be around in case.

A cell phone or one of those "I've fallen and I can't get up" thingies 
might work
if you're still conscious.

If you're in no condition to figure out a solution after you've gotten 
yourself into
a predicament, your executor takes care of your estate.

From crothfuss at coastalnet.com  Sun Feb 24 19:03:19 2008
From: crothfuss at coastalnet.com (crothfuss at coastalnet.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:03:19 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
Message-ID: <24463095.1203904999670.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

GM Fuel senders.  

   I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've replaced so many GM fuel sending units that I don't even bother with resistance checks and gage sweep tests anymore.  The contacts that GM uses on the fuel gage sender are very prone to breaking/burning/corroding off.  When you pull the sender out and compare it to the new one you'll notice the long slender "fingers" on the new sender and what looks more like a fist (without fingers) at the end of the old senders contact.  Without the fingers, the sender can rock slightly on it's shaft and completely lose contact with the rheostat on the sender, causing erratic readings. 

Shop safety.

   Worst case of shop safety violation I ever saw was by a friend of mine.
He was in the shop alone, welding a muffler on his car.  He needed to turn the coathanger he was using as a welding rod around, so he stuck it in his mouth.  That burned his tongue and lips, which caused him to sit up abruptly.  As he sat up he smashed his glasses on the shock absorber mount.  When he recoiled from this he hit his melon on the concrete floor and knocked himself out, torch still burning, but thankfully, at a safe distance from anything.  

   In my shop now we have a two-man rule.  So nobody ever works alone in the shop, and nobody works on a lift without someone knowing they are there, and within ear shot.  We've had no troubles with this rule in place.

Chuck  

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sun Feb 24 19:38:42 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:38:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <24463095.1203904999670.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003201c87757$8c65c8c0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

Your "worst case" story sounds like the "Bricklayer's Song".....

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of crothfuss at coastalnet.com
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 9:03 PM
To: old dirtbeard; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
question


GM Fuel senders.

   I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've replaced so many GM fuel
sending units that I don't even bother with resistance checks and gage sweep
tests anymore.  The contacts that GM uses on the fuel gage sender are very
prone to breaking/burning/corroding off.  When you pull the sender out and
compare it to the new one you'll notice the long slender "fingers" on the
new sender and what looks more like a fist (without fingers) at the end of
the old senders contact.  Without the fingers, the sender can rock slightly
on it's shaft and completely lose contact with the rheostat on the sender,
causing erratic readings.

Shop safety.

   Worst case of shop safety violation I ever saw was by a friend of mine.
He was in the shop alone, welding a muffler on his car.  He needed to turn
the coathanger he was using as a welding rod around, so he stuck it in his
mouth.  That burned his tongue and lips, which caused him to sit up
abruptly.  As he sat up he smashed his glasses on the shock absorber mount.
When he recoiled from this he hit his melon on the concrete floor and
knocked himself out, torch still burning, but thankfully, at a safe distance
from anything.

   In my shop now we have a two-man rule.  So nobody ever works alone in the
shop, and nobody works on a lift without someone knowing they are there, and
within ear shot.  We've had no troubles with this rule in place.

Chuck
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

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From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Feb 24 20:11:22 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <752947.18920.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Try Mouser Electronics: www.mouser.com

They are a full-range electronics distributor, and
they have no minimum order (unlike most distributors),
and a easy-to-use
web site.

Doug

--- Matt Trebelhorn <matt.lists at trebelhorn.com> wrote:

> I don't have a part number or a spec -- these are
> light bulbs that go  
> inside switches in a 95 Volkswagen. 

From battmain at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 20:12:24 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:12:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

--- Matt Trebelhorn <matt.lists at trebelhorn.com> wrote:

> I don't have a part number or a spec -- these are light bulbs that go  
> inside switches in a 95 Volkswagen.  Dealers will sell a new switch  
> for $160; vwvortex will tell me "dude! that's a bummer!".

Some sources I use...
Partsexpress.com
digikey.com (they will charge a exorbitant small order fee, but somtimes if
you want something bad enough.)
RadioShack.com as previously mentioned. (a quick search pulled up a few 12v)

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Feb 24 20:27:10 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:27:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <20080225000142.VZPG4595.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20080225000142.VZPG4595.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <47C2358E.3090405@xxiii.com>

Randall wrote:
>> What would you do if you found yourself 
>> immobilized while under a car in your shop?
> 
> Truly immobilized, I would have to wait for someone to come looking for me.
> But with just a dislocated knee, I'd probably manage to crawl somewhere to

Wow.... wasn't in my shop/garage, but in the driveway, so it pretty much 
counts.  Back in Jan 1999 I was shoveling out snow & ice from my Ohio 
driveway.  I was the only person at home, but it was suburbia and houses 
were only a few feet apart.

One foot was planted on wet concrete, the other went out from under me 
on wet ice on the inclined driveway.  I fought to stay upright and used 
the snow shovel to keep my balance.  BIG MISTAKE.  The shovel (I 
theorize) -- out at arm's length as I tried not to fall,  generated 
enough torque to dislocate my ankle.  My left ankle was sticking out out 
at 9:00 after hitting the ground.  Yeah, 90 degrees out to the side.

I quickly realized I was mostly alone despite the proximity of 
neighboring houses.  So, I put my hands down in the slush and slid / 
dragged my ass up the driveway on my butt into the house to call 911.

My mantra for walking on snow & ice after that was "just fall".  I think 
I would have only been bruised if I hadn't fought it.  Since then I've 
moved out of the nasty weather zone I so despise.

   -Wayne

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Mon Feb 25 07:18:34 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 08:18:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <200802250016.m1P0GwL2020544@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c877b9$4f159a10$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

Thanks folks for the suggestions. The kid I paid to  plant the trees is in
school majoring in  landscape design or some such. I basically gave him the
job because I know he needs the money as he is working his way through
school,  so I really don't want to try to stick him  with the repair.
The pipe does look like white PVC so hopefully I can find a saddle to fix
it. If not I'll try the pulling back the wire with a cord tied to it, cut
the cord string the cord through the repair section, tie the cord and pull
it through.

My wife has been asking me for years why I don't just hire someone to do
some of the jobs around the house and I've always told her " because I don't
want to end up fixing someone else's screw up."
This should give me a couple of year without that question.

Bob

PS : having weather that's warm enough to plant trees isn't all that great,
the weeds are also popping up and the yard needs to be cleaned up as well.
I'd trade for snow on the ground and a heated garage!

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> What kind of conduit is so brittle that it could be broken by
> a shovel? If the wires are running in sch 40 PVC, there are
> repair sections that can be glued around the white pipe.
> _______________________________________________

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Feb 25 08:37:30 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:37:30 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C2E0BA.5070200@hornesystemstx.com>

Are there any Pick-A-Part places where you could pull another switch for 
cheap? Or is there a group for these cars where someone could give you 
the current draw for the lamp?

Good luck.

Peace,
Pat

>   
>> I don't have a part number or a spec -- these are light bulbs that go  
>> inside switches in a 95 Volkswagen.  Dealers will sell a new switch  
>> for $160; vwvortex will tell me "dude! that's a bummer!".

>>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
>> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
>> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>>
>>     


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Feb 25 08:40:03 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:40:03 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
References: <005f01c877b9$4f159a10$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <002401c877c4$b0bbeb60$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Well, I've got the heated garage and snow on the ground, with the bonus of 
another 8 or 9 inches due tonight.  Let's discuss the relative values of our 
houses and how quickly we can each be ready to move !!

I'll even throw in my snowblower !!

Karl



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Nogueira" <nogera at worldnet.att.net>
>
> PS : having weather that's warm enough to plant trees isn't all that 
> great,
> the weeds are also popping up and the yard needs to be cleaned up as well.
> I'd trade for snow on the ground and a heated garage!

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Feb 25 09:23:40 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:23:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <47C2E0BA.5070200@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<47C2E0BA.5070200@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <0JWS00HDKYXA9820@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Are there other switches in the same panel that are lit to the same 
brightness?  If you are so inclined, you could always measure the 
resistance of a working bulb in another switch and derive from 
there.  V=IR and all that rot.

-Steve

At 10:37 AM 2/25/2008, Pat Horne wrote:
>Are there any Pick-A-Part places where you could pull another switch for
>cheap? Or is there a group for these cars where someone could give you
>the current draw for the lamp?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Feb 25 10:41:14 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:41:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <0JWR00CY5HKMXP30@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <549943.22500.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Keep one thing in mind:  There is not really any
expectation that the inside of an underground conduit
will remain dry.  I have seen conduits that carry
telco or power company lines under a street from one
pole to another, with floodwater pouring in one end
and pouring out the other.  

So you may be able to patch it with a piece of split
PVC pipe, glue, and clamps and be OK, even though it
is not hermetically sealed.

Doug

From mbarre at juno.com  Mon Feb 25 10:48:19 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:48:19 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
Message-ID: <20080225.124819.10920.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

Thats is an excellent point.  Just step up a size or two, split it and then
just glue it over the top...

-- Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
Keep one thing in mind:  There is not really any
expectation that the inside of an underground conduit
will remain dry.  I have seen conduits that carry
telco or power company lines under a street from one
pole to another, with floodwater pouring in one end
and pouring out the other.

So you may be able to patch it with a piece of split
PVC pipe, glue, and clamps and be OK, even though it
is not hermetically sealed.

Doug
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

_____________________________________________________________
Don't throw your computer away! Click now for expert computer repair!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3mCNRhADAeiZrF3aZAJUhxd9CVl
pYamF30RpCU0jMQMxalM7/

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Feb 25 11:19:15 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:19:15 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <20080225.124819.10920.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080225.124819.10920.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <CD18E515FE1A4379ADD151728B33439F@OwnerPC>

I missed the first few threads so I might be in the dark here... but have 
had to make this kind of repair before... both on phone lines and sprinkler 
control lines.

I hit a buried conduit (gray & not very deep) with a post hole digger (about 
a 4" break and had to repair.  I dug around the bad section about 8 inches 
on either side and enough underneath to work with my hands.  This was 1" 
conduit.  I cut a piece of 1.5" conduit and split it down the length and 
about 1/8" wide.  I took out all the busted pieces of the old stuff and slid 
the new piece over the bad section inserting the wires through the split. 
When squeezed down it made a nice tight fit.  I slid the patch tube back 
over one end and after cleaning with pvc cleaner, slathered on pvc glue.  I 
got some glue from a plumber friend that gives you a little more time than 
the normal stuff.  Did the same to the other end but it didn't get as good a 
treatment cause time was running out.  Slid the patch in place and using 
vice grips, clamped it tight to the broken conduit and let it sit for an 
hour or so.

Came back later with a tube of silicon and a Nitrile glove and coated the 
whole patch , top, bottom, sides and ends and about an inch or two out each 
end with a thick coat of silicon...made a good old mess.... then let that 
dry overnight.  Next day I wrapped the whole thing with 3m splicing tape 
(#6147) this stuff is expensive but makes a watertight bond... (I got mine 
at work :-) )  then finally with 3m vinyl tape, several layers.  I trust 
this patch more than any of the joints in the whole run !!

I've never dug it up to check but everything is still working....  The split 
tube is the easiest way to repair and your level of sealing is up to you... 
At least coat it with silicon for sure..

john



> Thats is an excellent point.  Just step up a size or two, split it and 
> then
> just glue it over the top...
>
> -- Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Keep one thing in mind:  There is not really any
> expectation that the inside of an underground conduit
> will remain dry.  I have seen conduits that carry
> telco or power company lines under a street from one
> pole to another, with floodwater pouring in one end
> and pouring out the other.
>
> So you may be able to patch it with a piece of split
> PVC pipe, glue, and clamps and be OK, even though it
> is not hermetically sealed.
>
> Doug
> You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Don't throw your computer away! Click now for expert computer repair!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3mCNRhADAeiZrF3aZAJUhxd9CVl
> pYamF30RpCU0jMQMxalM7/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Feb 25 11:29:27 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:29:27 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <0JWS00HDKYXA9820@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com><47C2E0BA.5070200@hornesystemstx.com>
	<0JWS00HDKYXA9820@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <1b5201c877dc$5a8f7280$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Are there other switches in the same panel that are lit to the same 
> brightness?  If you are so inclined, you could always measure the 
> resistance of a working bulb in another switch and derive from 
> there.  V=IR and all that rot.

But don't forget that the resistance changes dramatically when the bulb is
lit (and even varies with how brightly it's lit) ... you really need to
measure voltage & current rather than resistance.

Randall

From whesr at iglou.com  Mon Feb 25 14:12:55 2008
From: whesr at iglou.com (Bill Engle Sr)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:12:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <OF8730496E.3BAC32CD-ON852573F9.008376C3-852573FA.000040F3@
	mail.megageek.com>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<OF8730496E.3BAC32CD-ON852573F9.008376C3-852573FA.000040F3@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <E1JTkm0-0003ET-4Z@iglou.com>

   I  keep my cell phone in my pocket when I am working alone, that way I
   will never need it.
   Bill
    06:58 PM 2/24/2008, eric at megageek.com wrote:

     >Any  ideas?  What  would  you do if you found yourself immobilized
     while
     under a
     >car in your shop? What precautions do you take while working alone
     in the
     >shop?
     I'll  do  you  one  better.   I was in one of my back fields and my
     dozer track
     came  loose.   I  was  putting it back on the pulley when my gloved
     hand got
     caught  between  the  track  and  pulley.  I was about 200m from my
     house (but
     I  lived  alone back then.)  To make matters worst, the tractor was
     idling
     and I could reach the kill switch to shut it off.
     If  I wasn't able to work my hand out, I guess it would have been a
     few day
     before anyone found me.

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Feb 25 14:56:40 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:56:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <0JWS00HDKYXA9820@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<47C2E0BA.5070200@hornesystemstx.com>
	<0JWS00HDKYXA9820@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <47C33998.30709@hornesystemstx.com>

Steven,

Cold resistance of a bulb is much lower than hot resistance. That's why 
most bulbs burn out when you turn them on.

While it may not have an exact correlation, I just measured the cold 
resistance of a 130V 75W bulb and it measured 21 ohms. That would be 804 
Watts cold filament dissipation. Using Ohms law, the resistance of a 
130V 75W lamp will be 225 ohms hot, so you might be able to measure the 
resistance of another lamp and multiply the resistance by 10 to get hot 
resistance, but my measurements is just a sample of one. YMMV.

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake Steven Trovato:
> Are there other switches in the same panel that are lit to the same 
> brightness?  If you are so inclined, you could always measure the 
> resistance of a working bulb in another switch and derive from 
> there.  V=IR and all that rot.
>
> -Steve
>
> At 10:37 AM 2/25/2008, Pat Horne wrote:
>   
>> Are there any Pick-A-Part places where you could pull another switch for
>> cheap? Or is there a group for these cars where someone could give you
>> the current draw for the lamp?
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Feb 25 14:59:15 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:59:15 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <549943.22500.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <549943.22500.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C33A33.3000308@hornesystemstx.com>

This is correct, but also be sure to look at the insulation on the wires 
themselves. Their condition is most important.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Doug Braun:
> Keep one thing in mind:  There is not really any
> expectation that the inside of an underground conduit
> will remain dry.  I have seen conduits that carry
> telco or power company lines under a street from one
> pole to another, with floodwater pouring in one end
> and pouring out the other.  
>
> So you may be able to patch it with a piece of split
> PVC pipe, glue, and clamps and be OK, even though it
> is not hermetically sealed.
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Feb 25 15:13:31 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:13:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] legitimate shop talk question: DEADMAN solutions
In-Reply-To: <E1JTkm0-0003ET-4Z@iglou.com>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<OF8730496E.3BAC32CD-ON852573F9.008376C3-852573FA.000040F3@mail.megageek.com>
	<E1JTkm0-0003ET-4Z@iglou.com>
Message-ID: <045601c877fb$a9093a30$fb1bae90$@mele@usermail.com>

OK, let's get a bit more techy...

Set up an automatic dialer with the number of someone you trust, etc, who
also won't charge for the occ'l false alarm.

Set up a "dead man" timer for the "RESET" interval you'd be comfortable
with. If you're getting ready to weld up that hole in the gas tank, set the
timer for 5 minutes....

Have the machine use a digital recorder chip (8 seconds long...cheap at the
places listed for "grain of wheat"bulbs earlier)..."Warning..Reset Deadman
in 5 minutes or less"...so you don't get distracted and lose track of time.

Push the Deadman button every "RESET" minutes, or it calls your emergency
contact.  They verify by calling you back, then they call 911.

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Feb 25 15:40:27 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:40:27 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] legitimate shop talk question: DEADMAN  solutions
In-Reply-To: <045601c877fb$a9093a30$fb1bae90$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<OF8730496E.3BAC32CD-ON852573F9.008376C3-852573FA.000040F3@mail.megageek.com>
	<E1JTkm0-0003ET-4Z@iglou.com>
	<045601c877fb$a9093a30$fb1bae90$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <47C343DB.1050707@hornesystemstx.com>

Since you are going to intelligence in this box, add another circuit to 
this that will set off a local audio alarm 1 minute or so before the 
dialer does its job, as a reminder that the dialer is about ready to 
report you MIA.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Paul Mele:
> OK, let's get a bit more techy...
>
> Set up an automatic dialer with the number of someone you trust, etc, who
> also won't charge for the occ'l false alarm.
>
> Set up a "dead man" timer for the "RESET" interval you'd be comfortable
> with. If you're getting ready to weld up that hole in the gas tank, set the
> timer for 5 minutes....
>
> Have the machine use a digital recorder chip (8 seconds long...cheap at the
> places listed for "grain of wheat"bulbs earlier)..."Warning..Reset Deadman
> in 5 minutes or less"...so you don't get distracted and lose track of time.
>
> Push the Deadman button every "RESET" minutes, or it calls your emergency
> contact.  They verify by calling you back, then they call 911.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Feb 25 15:43:38 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:43:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <47C33998.30709@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<47C2E0BA.5070200@hornesystemstx.com>
	<0JWS00HDKYXA9820@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<47C33998.30709@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <0JWT00CCQGH6BAP0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Yes, yes.  I was really thinking you would just compare the 
resistance of the known bulb with the resistance of the candidate 
bulb.  The V=IR part was a not very well thought out 
afterthought.  Sorry.  In any event, I think we're overanalyzing this 
whole thing.  There are little bulbs out there of appropriate 
voltage.  Try some and find one that looks like it's the right 
brightness.  Done.

-Steve

At 04:56 PM 2/25/2008, Pat Horne wrote:
>Steven,
>
>Cold resistance of a bulb is much lower than hot resistance. That's 
>why most bulbs burn out when you turn them on.
>
>While it may not have an exact correlation, I just measured the cold 
>resistance of a 130V 75W bulb and it measured 21 ohms. That would be 
>804 Watts cold filament dissipation. Using Ohms law, the resistance 
>of a 130V 75W lamp will be 225 ohms hot, so you might be able to 
>measure the resistance of another lamp and multiply the resistance 
>by 10 to get hot resistance, but my measurements is just a sample of one. YMMV.
>
>Peace,
>Pat

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Feb 25 16:02:00 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:02:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <0JWT00CCQGH6BAP0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <939998.29674.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<47C2E0BA.5070200@hornesystemstx.com>
	<0JWS00HDKYXA9820@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<47C33998.30709@hornesystemstx.com>
	<0JWT00CCQGH6BAP0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <47C348E8.3080007@hornesystemstx.com>

Agreed.  If dimming isn't necessary I'd try a white LED and add a series 
resistor to get the desired brightness.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Steven Trovato:
> Yes, yes.  I was really thinking you would just compare the resistance 
> of the known bulb with the resistance of the candidate bulb.  The V=IR 
> part was a not very well thought out afterthought.  Sorry.  In any 
> event, I think we're overanalyzing this whole thing.  There are little 
> bulbs out there of appropriate voltage.  Try some and find one that 
> looks like it's the right brightness.  Done.
>
> -Steve
>
> At 04:56 PM 2/25/2008, Pat Horne wrote:
>> Steven,
>>
>> Cold resistance of a bulb is much lower than hot resistance. That's 
>> why most bulbs burn out when you turn them on.
>>
>> While it may not have an exact correlation, I just measured the cold 
>> resistance of a 130V 75W bulb and it measured 21 ohms. That would be 
>> 804 Watts cold filament dissipation. Using Ohms law, the resistance 
>> of a 130V 75W lamp will be 225 ohms hot, so you might be able to 
>> measure the resistance of another lamp and multiply the resistance by 
>> 10 to get hot resistance, but my measurements is just a sample of 
>> one. YMMV.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>
>
>


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Feb 25 17:25:41 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:25:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] DEADMAN  solutions
In-Reply-To: <47C343DB.1050707@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <045601c877fb$a9093a30$fb1bae90$@mele@usermail.com>
	<006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<OF8730496E.3BAC32CD-ON852573F9.008376C3-852573FA.000040F3@mail.megageek.com>
	<E1JTkm0-0003ET-4Z@iglou.com>
	<045601c877fb$a9093a30$fb1bae90$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20080225192541.00a45bf0@pop.east.cox.net>

I heard a neat idea the other day for an intruder alert, and I think
it might work here also.

That is keep the remote entry key fob to your car with you.  If you get
stuck, assuming you aren't unconcious, and that there is someone to hear
it, unlike Moose, press the panic button and set off you car alarm.

You could mention it to you neighbors, so if they here it going off, they
might come check on you.

For the intruder alert, they were saying keep you key fob by your bed at
night.  If you think there's an intruder, hit the panic button.

I knew a fellow in NJ that tied a string to a cow bell.  So when he was
under a car, he could pull the string if he needed help.  Also the little
canister air horns.  But all these have the same assumptions as above.

I like the auto dialer approach.  But hope your friend is home if they
get the call. :)


John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:21:15 2008
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:21:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20080225190331.03d1efc8@yahoo.com>

Damn, these are some good stories.  I've got a couple....

Here's one along the line of the Bricklayer's Song: when I was a kid, 
we would all play in the field after the farmer mowed it for hay.  We 
would grab all kinds of wood chunks and make forts.  These bits of 
timber would inevitable have nails in them.  Big old rusty gnarly 
nails.  Well, your humble poster decided to sit on a nail one fall 
day.  He immediately yelped out in pain and put both hands down to 
push himself up and yep, two more nails piercing flesh.  Moving his 
feet to stand up, he planted one foot into a nail.  The only thing 
worse was going to the hospital and getting a tetanus shot.  At least 
the nurse was cute....

And just this past summer, I stranded myself 80 feet up.  Have a 
manlift and sometimes use it as a mobile tree cutting 
platform.  Topping off a maple one day, the damn deutz diesel died on 
me right as I got into position.  Hmmm....  Clouds don't look too 
close.  I'll just finish cutting and it'll fire right back up when 
I'm done.  When I went to restart it, it wouldn't start.  Battery 
seems to be turning a bit slow.  Hmmm, call the wife in the house for 
a jump.  Call her and she doesn't answer the phone because the 
battery in the cell dies after half a ring. <Grrrrr>.    After about 
an hour (took a little nap, read a couple catalogs, sore throat from 
yelling for her, etc...), my wife realizes she doesn't hear anything 
and comes out to see what's going on.  She drives down the driveway 
and after cussing me out, goes to get the portable battery jump 
starter.  Which doesn't work.  Hmmm....  We then decide to have her 
string out a couple extension cords and plug in the battery charger 
(it's a Schumacher that can jump start a battery-less diesel by 
itself).  Still no go.  Hmmm, those clouds are starting to get closer 
and is that lightning I see way in the distance?  I'm 80 feet up 
standing on 5 tons of steel.  CRAP!  I then ell instructions down on 
how to lower the boom - there are some relief valves that will lower 
the box to the ground.  She can get the first two open but not the 
third.  By this time, I'm feeling rain and starting to get a bit, 
ummm, anxious.  All of a sudden, Deb calls out that there's this 
"circuit breaker  thingie" that's red.  I tell her to push it 
in.  The engine starts right up and I lower myself to the ground in 
the beginning of the thunderstorm.  The fuel pump circuit breaker had 
tripped...  :-O

Make sure the cell is charged before you go out.  I have one of those 
9V battery adapter thingies that I keep in a pocket now.  Backup for 
the backup....



At 2/24/2008 at 18:07, Shakespearean monkeys danced on old 
dirtbeard's keyboard and said:


>Any ideas? What would you do if you found yourself immobilized while under a
>car in your shop? What precautions do you take while working alone in the
>shop?


Cheers!

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Feb 25 18:31:42 2008
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:31:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20080225190331.03d1efc8@yahoo.com>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20080225190331.03d1efc8@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C36BFE.9080005@hornesystemstx.com>

Several years ago I was building my shop building and rented an 
all-terrain platform lift to help out. Working 30' in the air the engine 
quit, actually running out of fuel. There was nobody around to add the 
fuel that was sitting a few feet away from the lift, so I climbed out of 
the lift and spent about 10 minutes working my down through the framing 
to the ground. After filling the fuel tank I was able to drop the lift 
and all was well. Later I was telling a friend about the ordeal and he 
mused that most hydraulic lifts use the engine to raise the platform and 
gravity to bring it down. I promptly fire the lift up, raised it and 
shut the engine off. With the key on I pressed the lever to drop the 
lift and almost miraculously, and silently the lift dropped to the 
ground. I'll remember that for the next time I rent a lift and get stuck 
up in the air!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Richard Beels:
> And just this past summer, I stranded myself 80 feet up.  Have a 
> manlift and sometimes use it as a mobile tree cutting 
> platform.  Topping off a maple one day, the damn deutz diesel died on 
> me right as I got into position.  Hmmm....  Clouds don't look too 
> close.  I'll just finish cutting and it'll fire right back up when 
> I'm done.  When I went to restart it, it wouldn't start.  Battery 
> seems to be turning a bit slow.  Hmmm, call the wife in the house for 
> a jump.  Call her and she doesn't answer the phone because the 
> battery in the cell dies after half a ring. <Grrrrr>.    After about 
> an hour (took a little nap, read a couple catalogs, sore throat from 
> yelling for her, etc...), my wife realizes she doesn't hear anything 
> and comes out to see what's going on.  She drives down the driveway 
> and after cussing me out, goes to get the portable battery jump 
> starter.  Which doesn't work.  Hmmm....  We then decide to have her 
> string out a couple extension cords and plug in the battery charger 
> (it's a Schumacher that can jump start a battery-less diesel by 
> itself).  Still no go.  Hmmm, those clouds are starting to get closer 
> and is that lightning I see way in the distance?  I'm 80 feet up 
> standing on 5 tons of steel.  CRAP!  I then ell instructions down on 
> how to lower the boom - there are some relief valves that will lower 
> the box to the ground.  She can get the first two open but not the 
> third.  By this time, I'm feeling rain and starting to get a bit, 
> ummm, anxious.  All of a sudden, Deb calls out that there's this 
> "circuit breaker  thingie" that's red.  I tell her to push it 
> in.  The engine starts right up and I lower myself to the ground in 
> the beginning of the thunderstorm.  The fuel pump circuit breaker had 
> tripped...  :-O
>
> Make sure the cell is charged before you go out.  I have one of those 
> 9V battery adapter thingies that I keep in a pocket now.  Backup for 
> the backup....
>
>
>
> At 2/24/2008 at 18:07, Shakespearean monkeys danced on old 
> dirtbeard's keyboard and said:
>
>
>   
>> Any ideas? What would you do if you found yourself immobilized while under a
>> car in your shop? What precautions do you take while working alone in the
>> shop?
>>     
>
>
> Cheers!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Feb 25 18:44:39 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:44:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <47C36BFE.9080005@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20080225190331.03d1efc8@yahoo.com>
	<47C36BFE.9080005@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <24DEF4D2-B3C2-46DD-AC33-F64BBC2E4967@groupwbench.org>

Same deal except that I had left the choke on. I was aware of the  
self-lowering feature, but a bug in the design (IMO) lowers all 3  
arms at once, instead of in order, (or ideally, selectably from the  
bucket) so the bucket hit the roof before it could move horizontally  
enough to clear the roof. I had to climb into a window, something  
that would have been far easier before I tried loweing the bucket.

jim

On Feb 25, 2008, at 8:31 PM, Pat Horne wrote:

> Several years ago I was building my shop building and rented an
> all-terrain platform lift to help out. Working 30' in the air the  
> engine
> quit, actually running out of fuel. There was nobody around to add the
> fuel that was sitting a few feet away from the lift, so I climbed  
> out of
> the lift and spent about 10 minutes working my down through the  
> framing
> to the ground. After filling the fuel tank I was able to drop the lift
> and all was well. Later I was telling a friend about the ordeal and he
> mused that most hydraulic lifts use the engine to raise the  
> platform and
> gravity to bring it down. I promptly fire the lift up, raised it and
> shut the engine off. With the key on I pressed the lever to drop the
> lift and almost miraculously, and silently the lift dropped to the
> ground. I'll remember that for the next time I rent a lift and get  
> stuck
> up in the air!

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Mon Feb 25 20:01:26 2008
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:01:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scaffolding
Message-ID: <002c01c87823$e25b1e70$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

Okay folks, I've got to tell you of a great purchase I made for the shop
this weekend.
I've got to paint the house this spring and I've been telling my wife that I
should buy some scaffolding rather than climb up and down the ladder. Well
she is always telling me to buy the tools I need and to boot, she always
manages to get me to upgrade to a higher quality ( she is one great wife).
Well I saw some scaffolding ( standard pipe type) in the Northern Tool flyer
and she went with me to look at it. Once there she encouraged me to get the
Heavy duty scaffolding which has castors.  http://tinyurl.com/2vvl4p  .

I was hesitate since it looked heavier and  would be harder to store but at
her insistence I got it. Well once home I assembled it and it struck me that
with the walkboard at table height it made a great roll about work bench (
5.5 ft X 2.5 ft) . Additionally it could save me  building a temporary paint
booth  to varnish  a wood dashboard and trim by simply draping a tarp over
the top and sides
This led to the realization that with the walkboard set  high and a tarp
over the scaffold it would make a great temporary outdoors storage for my
scooter or Isetta  when I need that extra room in the garage. Heck if I
picked up another unit I could park one of my Morgan's under it!

Anyway this purchase which I thought was probably going to be a 'use one
time and store forever' has turned out to be a great little addition to the
shop.

Only problem is now I don't have an excuse to not paint the house.

Bob Nogueira   ( who has no interest financial or otherwise in Northern
Tools).

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Feb 25 20:32:18 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:32:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Repair underground conduit
In-Reply-To: <549943.22500.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <0JWR00CY5HKMXP30@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<549943.22500.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0JWT00D8NTQKQK22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>

At 09:41 AM  2/25/2008, Doug Braun wrote:
>I have seen conduits that carry
>telco or power company lines under a street from one
>pole to another, with floodwater pouring in one end
>and pouring out the other.

That's the way mine is.  I have underground feed from the power pole 
in the street.  My driveway is about 900 feet long, and as long as we 
have been here there has always been a steady flow of water out of 
the transformer area in the winter.  I finally put in a yard drain to 
drain it away from the transformer and yard.  One of these days I 
expect an explosion somewhere along the driveway... or the 
transformer.  fortunately everything upstream of the transformer 
belongs to the utility.

Dave C 

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 00:38:38 2008
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 02:38:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] erratic fuel gauge and a legitimate shop talk
 question
In-Reply-To: <24DEF4D2-B3C2-46DD-AC33-F64BBC2E4967@groupwbench.org>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20080225190331.03d1efc8@yahoo.com>
	<47C36BFE.9080005@hornesystemstx.com>
	<24DEF4D2-B3C2-46DD-AC33-F64BBC2E4967@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20080226023633.03ea7fc8@yahoo.com>

This is a boom-type lift and the boom was a little too vertical to 
"tight-rope" walk on - or even sit and scoot - about 60 degrees or so 
from vertical.  And I didn't relish trying to shimmy down the tree 
either.  It was dead and rotting and when I'd shake the top, it would 
make all kinds of sad cracky noises....

At 2/25/2008 at 20:44, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Jim Franklin's 
keyboard and said:
>Same deal except that I had left the choke on. I was aware of the
>self-lowering feature, but a bug in the design (IMO) lowers all 3
>arms at once, instead of in order, (or ideally, selectably from the
>bucket) so the bucket hit the roof before it could move horizontally
>enough to clear the roof. I had to climb into a window, something
>that would have been far easier before I tried loweing the bucket.


Cheers!

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Feb 26 04:04:01 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:04:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
Message-ID: <OF77F99917.911FBBB3-ON852573FB.003C8E1B-852573FB.003D2864@mail.megageek.com>

OK, every morning for the past few day, when I take my shower I start with 
great pressure.
Then the water trickles to almost nothing, then the pressure returns.

I've added air to the bladder, but it didn't help.  What do I need to do 
to fix this?  Do the pressure switches go bad?  Is it possible to clean or 
service them?

TIA 

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Feb 26 06:20:33 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:20:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
In-Reply-To: <OF77F99917.911FBBB3-ON852573FB.003C8E1B-852573FB.003D2864@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <794329.99464.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The pressurizer at my in-law's summer house had
separate cut-in and cut-out adjustments.  They had
been set too close together, so the pump was starting
and stopping every couple of seconds.  I guess yours
could have the opposite problem.

Once I removed the cover on the pressure switch, the
adjustments were pretty obvious.

Doug

--- eric at megageek.com wrote:

> OK, every morning for the past few day, when I take
> my shower I start with 
> great pressure.
> Then the water trickles to almost nothing, then the
> pressure returns.
> 
> I've added air to the bladder, but it didn't help. 
> What do I need to do 
> to fix this?  Do the pressure switches go bad?  Is
> it possible to clean or 
> service them?

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Tue Feb 26 07:33:06 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:33:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scaffolding
In-Reply-To: <002c01c87823$e25b1e70$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
References: <002c01c87823$e25b1e70$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <04a201c87884$814db9b0$83e92d10$@mele@usermail.com>

I have 2 scaffold sets; can stack them for the cathedral ceilings;
disassemble for storage. 
They really do save time vs the ladder...

I bought the "pro" version from the local Sherwin Williams jobber when they
were "on sale"; the consumer version seemed a bit too wobbly for my taste

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+paul.mele=usermail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Bob Nogueira
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:01 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Scaffolding

Okay folks, I've got to tell you of a great purchase I made for the shop
this weekend.
I've got to paint the house this spring and I've been telling my wife that I
should buy some scaffolding rather than climb up and down the ladder. 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Feb 26 08:01:07 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:01:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] legitimate shop talk question: DEADMAN  solutions
In-Reply-To: <045601c877fb$a9093a30$fb1bae90$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <006801c8773a$06ec5820$aed07d80@B50SS>
	<OF8730496E.3BAC32CD-ON852573F9.008376C3-852573FA.000040F3@mail.megageek.com>
	<E1JTkm0-0003ET-4Z@iglou.com>
	<045601c877fb$a9093a30$fb1bae90$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <47C429B3.6080100@xxiii.com>

Paul Mele wrote:
> Push the Deadman button every "RESET" minutes, or it calls your emergency
> contact.  They verify by calling you back, then they call 911.

Hey!  Didn't they do this on "Lost" a couple years ago?!  :)

(hehe -- good idea, really!)

   -Wayne

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Tue Feb 26 08:16:43 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:16:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] A problem I've never seen before......
Message-ID: <008701c8788a$9b8fed60$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

Last Saturday I saw my neighbor changing spark plugs on his truck. About a
half an hour later he was knocking on my door. He handed me the insulator
from a broken spark plug and said, "What do I do now coach?"

When I looked at it closer I saw that it was not just the insulator, the
steel hex portion of the plug was still attached to the insulator. The steel
hex had snapped off of the threaded portion.

I went over an looked to confirm what I saw. Fortunately, it wasn't one of
the plugs at the back of the engine and I could actually see into the
recess......my worst suspicions were confirmed. There was the remains of the
broken insulator sticking out of the threaded portion which had not even
started to unthread. I suggested that he might try carefully breaking up the
remaining parts of the insulator and then getting a left handed drill bit
quite a bit larger than the hole through the threaded portion and hope that
it would "bite" into the plug and back it out. However, as we discussed it,
we decided that the chances were slim that you could do these two steps
necessary without getting significant trash into the cylinder. I finally
came to the conclusion that I couldn't think of a safe way short of pulling
the head. He decided that the problem was beyond his abilities and later
that day I saw the tow truck picking up his truck....

Has anybody out there ever had this happen to them? How did you solve the
problem?

If I get a big no, does anybody have any creative ideas?

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Tue Feb 26 08:36:12 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:36:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] A problem I've never seen before......
In-Reply-To: <008701c8788a$9b8fed60$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <008701c8788a$9b8fed60$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0802260736s2d931ac0kc271a5ba6f70c51@mail.gmail.com>

Never had this happen, but I think I might try a stud remover or a lug
nut remover.  I have seen these used to pull off lug nuts that were
badly rounded and wheel locks where the owner had lost the 'key'.  But
you'd want to make darned sure you got it out otherwise it would make
the situation worse.  You could also try to chip out the insulator and
use a internal pipe wrench or nipple extractor.  These work pretty got
on softer metals, but not sure how they might fair on steel.

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> wrote:

>  Has anybody out there ever had this happen to them? How did you solve the
>  problem?
>
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Feb 26 09:34:36 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:34:36 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] A problem I've never seen before......
In-Reply-To: <008701c8788a$9b8fed60$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <008701c8788a$9b8fed60$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797FB2007@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Gerald Brazil wrote:

> Last Saturday I saw my neighbor changing spark plugs on his
> truck. About a half an hour later he was knocking on my door.
> He handed me the insulator from a broken spark plug and said,
> "What do I do now coach?"
>
> When I looked at it closer I saw that it was not just the
> insulator, the steel hex portion of the plug was still attached
> to the insulator. The steel hex had snapped off of the threaded
> portion.

Was this by any chance on a relatively new model of Ford truck?

I remember reading about a problem with some new style plug that when
left in for the long duration life (i.e. 100,000 miles) have a tendency
to break like that.

There is a Ford service bulletin out about it, and some special tools
designed specifically to remove the broken plugs.  I do remember reading
that they recommend using penetrating oil, backing off a bit, oiling,
screwing it in, etc.

I'll see if I can find some references when I get home...

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Feb 26 09:46:07 2008
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:46:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] A problem I've never seen before......
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797FB2007@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <008701c8788a$9b8fed60$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797FB2007@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <20080226114423.X62813@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008, Mullen, Tim wrote:
> Was this by any chance on a relatively new model of Ford truck?
>
> I remember reading about a problem with some new style plug that when
> left in for the long duration life (i.e. 100,000 miles) have a tendency
> to break like that.
>
> There is a Ford service bulletin out about it, and some special tools
> designed specifically to remove the broken plugs.  I do remember reading
> that they recommend using penetrating oil, backing off a bit, oiling,
> screwing it in, etc.
>
> I'll see if I can find some references when I get home...

 	http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53682

    It's extremely common with 04+ F150s ( and probably everything else 
that uses the Triton motor ).  Seems Ford went a little overboard fixing 
the sparkplug pop-out problems that plagued the 97-03 trucks ;)

--
  David Hillman
  '07 F150 owner

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Feb 26 10:20:45 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:20:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
In-Reply-To: <OF77F99917.911FBBB3-ON852573FB.003C8E1B-852573FB.003D2864@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF77F99917.911FBBB3-ON852573FB.003C8E1B-852573FB.003D2864@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <47C44A6D.3060300@xxiii.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Then the water trickles to almost nothing, then the pressure returns.
> I've added air to the bladder, but it didn't help.  What do I need to do 
> to fix this?  Do the pressure switches go bad?  Is it possible to clean or 

Every well pressure tank I've seen has the nearly-identical Square-D pressure switch on it.  Remove the cover (careful - there's live 240V) and there are two screws for high and low limit adjustment.  I don't know how high you can safely go...  mine was at 30/50psi, and I bumped it to 35/55.  Turning off the breaker to the pump can help, since you can let it run all the way down till the switch hits.  You need to adjust the air pressure to match, as well.  Kill the pump power, let it run all the way down, and the tank should be 2 or 3 psi below the low limit.


  -W

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Tue Feb 26 11:05:01 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:05:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] A problem I've never seen before......
In-Reply-To: <20080226114423.X62813@itonami.pair.com>
References: <008701c8788a$9b8fed60$0301a8c0@DADSTOY><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797FB2007@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<20080226114423.X62813@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797FB211C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

David Hillman

>
> 	http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53682
>
>    It's extremely common with 04+ F150s ( and probably
> everything else that uses the Triton motor ).  Seems
> Ford went a little overboard fixing the sparkplug pop-out
> problems that plagued the 97-03 trucks ;)

Yep.  That's the problem I was reading about.

Here's a link to the special tool ($239):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-Rotunda-OTC-303-1203-Spark-Plug-Remo
val-Tool_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ43998Q
QihZ001QQitemZ110227884518

Here's a link to the instructions on how to remove the spark plugs/use
the tool:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/tsb/fulltext/show_article.php?tsb=06-5-9


Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 26 12:06:38 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:06:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] "100% Genuine" automotive parts
Message-ID: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>

As a result of a minor accident (not my fault) and a check from the Insurance
company (minus my $500 deductible) I'm now ready to look into buying a new
front quarterpanel and getting the bumper and fender repainted.  Now I need to
figure out the cheapest way to make this happen *just* so I can hopefully
break even.  I'll be doing the remove/replace myself.

Looking at some parts places for the new fender for a 2005 Subaru, and was
wondering how I can judge the quality of the parts.  Prices vary from $110-190
for the fender (I've been given $240 for this part on the claim) and they all
seem to guarantee their parts and appear to be reputable.  Is there any
definition of what 100% Genuine means out there, or is this just something a
select few parts places get to use so they can charge a little more for
parts.

PJ
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Feb 26 12:53:09 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:53:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] "100% Genuine" automotive parts
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47C46E25.4000106@xxiii.com>

PJ McGarvey wrote:
> Looking at some parts places for the new fender for a 2005 Subaru, and was
> wondering how I can judge the quality of the parts.  Prices vary from $110-190
> for the fender (I've been given $240 for this part on the claim) and they all

Only Subaru dealers sell "genuine" parts for their cars.  There are many auto dealerships that sell genuine OEM parts mail order at a discount;  usually 10% - 25% off  (for any Nissan owners I'll give a plug to the really great guys at http://www.courtesyparts.com/ )

There are numerous companies making aftermarket body parts, for as little as %20 of the price of OEM parts.  However, the fit can range from excellent to completely crappy.  I'm told most are made in Korea or China.  Much like other cheap Asian stuff, it's hard telling who really makes it, so I don't know how to determine which brands are good or bad.  Perhaps someone in the body repair biz can give better insight.

I did buy a rear-view mirror from these guys on Ebay recently:  http://stores.ebay.com/Car-Parts-Wholesale    They have some absurdly cheap prices.  The mirror was ok quality (and only $24 for a Pontiac power remote mirror!)  I can't speak for other stuff.  They seem to be a great source for fixing an older car, but I think on a 2005 you would want to stick with OEM parts to preserve resale value.

  -Wayne

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Feb 26 12:55:45 2008
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:55:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] "100% Genuine" automotive parts
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20080226142716.I62813@itonami.pair.com>

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008, PJ McGarvey wrote:
> Looking at some parts places for the new fender for a 2005 Subaru, and was
> wondering how I can judge the quality of the parts.

    Given the generally-shoddy quality of Subarus ( had two, won't be 
repeating that mistake ), especially later models, I wouldn't want 100% 
genuine Subaru anything.  More to the point, they're probably buying the 
same cheap Chinese crap you're looking at.  At least you don't have a new 
one with a hatch that's rusting.

--
  David Hillman

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Feb 26 13:05:24 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:05:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] "100% Genuine" automotive parts
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0JWV00JAQ3TCTL70@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, if it is really not your fault in the eyes of the insurance 
company, then the "other guy" should pay, with no deductible, labor 
included at a reputable body shop.  Of course things don't always 
work that way.  Anyway, to me, "genuine" means that it is an original 
part made by the car manufacturer.  The alternative is a part made by 
some other company, usually for less money, and possibly, but not 
necessarily, of lower quality.  If you are trying to economize, 
consider a used fender from a boneyard.  That will be a "100% 
genuine" part, just used.  Just like the one that is on your car now.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 26 14:02:49 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:02:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] "100% Genuine" automotive parts
In-Reply-To: <0JWV00JAQ3TCTL70@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
	<0JWV00JAQ3TCTL70@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W30AFDDE06FDFAA7C6E63C9A190@phx.gbl>

Didn't work that way for a friend who got sideswiped by an illegal with no
insurance that ran a red light, and had to get chased down by another driver
witnessing the whole thing.  His fault? nope.  He still had to pay his
deductible.

My uneducated guess is that you may see that deductible if you're already
paying high rates for your insurance, for example you can pay a lower rate in
exchange for a higher deductible.

In this situation, the $500 is a huge pain in my a$$, on top of the
realization I own a shoddy automobile.

> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:05:24 -0500
> From: strovato at optonline.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] "100% Genuine" automotive parts
> To: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
>
> Well, if it is really not your fault in the eyes of the insurance
> company, then the "other guy" should pay, with no deductible, labor
> included at a reputable body shop. Of course things don't always
> work that way. Anyway, to me, "genuine" means that it is an original
> part made by the car manufacturer. The alternative is a part made by
> some other company, usually for less money, and possibly, but not
> necessarily, of lower quality. If you are trying to economize,
> consider a used fender from a boneyard. That will be a "100%
> genuine" part, just used. Just like the one that is on your car now.

_________________________________________________________________
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Feb 26 14:26:26 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:26:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] "100% Genuine" automotive parts
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W8CCB2D76242A6589704539A190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <106433.79989.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Check with some of the on-line official Subaru parts
dealers (which are usually an actual dealership parts
department).  For example:  libertySubaru.com or
www.1stsubaruparts.com

I have my own Subaru project coming up soon: replacing
a blown head gasket on my '98 Outback.  I'm sure it
will be more difficult than changing the head gasket
on my '31 Ford...

Doug


--- PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

> As a result of a minor accident (not my fault) and a
> check from the Insurance
> company (minus my $500 deductible) I'm now ready to
> look into buying a new
> front quarterpanel and getting the bumper and fender
> repainted.  Now I need to
> figure out the cheapest way to make this happen
> *just* so I can hopefully
> break even.  I'll be doing the remove/replace
> myself.
> 
> Looking at some parts places for the new fender for
> a 2005 Subaru, and was
> wondering how I can judge the quality of the parts. 
> Prices vary from $110-190
> for the fender (I've been given $240 for this part
> on the claim) and they all
> seem to guarantee their parts and appear to be
> reputable.  Is there any
> definition of what 100% Genuine means out there, or
> is this just something a
> select few parts places get to use so they can
> charge a little more for
> parts.
> 
> PJ

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 14:13:46 2008
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:13:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
In-Reply-To: <47C44A6D.3060300@xxiii.com>
References: <OF77F99917.911FBBB3-ON852573FB.003C8E1B-852573FB.003D2864@mail.megageek.com>
	<47C44A6D.3060300@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20080226161225.03c8ef88@yahoo.com>

30/50?  I have mine set at 50-70...   :-)

A bigger bladder tank helps too - for the pump itself.

And you do need to turn in the pressure-release valve in until it 
holds the higher pressure.


At 2/26/2008 at 12:20, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Wayne's 
keyboard and said:
>eric at megageek.com wrote:
> > Then the water trickles to almost nothing, then the pressure returns.
> > I've added air to the bladder, but it didn't help.  What do I need to do
> > to fix this?  Do the pressure switches go bad?  Is it possible to clean or
>
>Every well pressure tank I've seen has the nearly-identical Square-D 
>pressure switch on it.  Remove the cover (careful - there's live 
>240V) and there are two screws for high and low limit adjustment.  I 
>don't know how high you can safely go...  mine was at 30/50psi, and 
>I bumped it to 35/55.  Turning off the breaker to the pump can help, 
>since you can let it run all the way down till the switch hits.  You 
>need to adjust the air pressure to match, as well.  Kill the pump 
>power, let it run all the way down, and the tank should be 2 or 3 
>psi below the low limit.


Cheers!

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Feb 26 15:04:11 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:04:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
In-Reply-To: <794329.99464.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OFCE0183FE.74DE97CC-ON852573FB.00791B62-852573FB.00799930@mail.megageek.com>

Doug writes...

>The pressurizer at my in-law's summer house had
>separate cut-in and cut-out adjustments.  They had
>been set too close together, so the pump was starting
>and stopping every couple of seconds.  I guess yours
>could have the opposite problem.

Well the problem is that for years, the pressure was fine, it just started 
a few days ago.  I haven't adjusted the switch at all.

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Feb 26 15:14:02 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:14:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
References: <794329.99464.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0JWV009OJ9RMXH30@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

You know, if you're talking about that "standard" square D switch 
used on most pressure tanks, you can buy a whole new one for $20 or 
so.  They come preset to one of the usual pressure value pairs.  You 
buy the one set the way you want.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From robzatz at gis.net  Tue Feb 26 15:18:10 2008
From: robzatz at gis.net (Rob Zatz)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:18:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
In-Reply-To: <OFCE0183FE.74DE97CC-ON852573FB.00791B62-852573FB.00799930@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFCE0183FE.74DE97CC-ON852573FB.00791B62-852573FB.00799930@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <47C49022.5000700@gis.net>

We had a similar problem a few years ago at my last house...thought it 
was the switch. Had a well service company come out. He was convinced it 
was the switch and put in a new one. Worked fine for a few moments, then 
the water pressure died for good...


The pump motor itself was faulty and gave its last gasp when they were 
there.

Hope that's not your problem, it wasn't an inexpensive repair.

Rob

eric at megageek.com wrote:

>Doug writes...
>
>  
>
>>The pressurizer at my in-law's summer house had
>>separate cut-in and cut-out adjustments.  They had
>>been set too close together, so the pump was starting
>>and stopping every couple of seconds.  I guess yours
>>could have the opposite problem.
>>    
>>
>
>Well the problem is that for years, the pressure was fine, it just started 
>a few days ago.  I haven't adjusted the switch at all.
>
>Moose
>
>"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>     Tori Amos
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as robzatz at gis.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Feb 26 17:15:49 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:15:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Water pressure question
In-Reply-To: <47C44A6D.3060300@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <OF4E60B891.9520CBD0-ON852573FC.00012796-852573FC.0001D067@mail.megageek.com>

Ok, here is what seems to be the solution for my water woes...

I took apart the line that connected the pump to the switch (water 
pressure pipe.)

guess what?  It was dry!

Damn.  It seems that over the years, some crud builds up in the orifice 
from the pump.  Without the water, there is no pressure.

So I had to clean out the pump side.  Then I was able to reassemble (as I 
was getting blasted with 50 degree water!)

Lets see if it's working.  I just coaxed my house keeper to take a shower! 
 8>)

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Tue Feb 26 18:21:14 2008
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:21:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] looking for small light bulbs
In-Reply-To: <0JWR005H5DF5NG10@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <3C1B1AD9-36B0-4861-A4B5-54638A16408B@trebelhorn.com>
	<0JWR005H5DF5NG10@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <F9F83F26-758A-4F10-9816-296CBCC162D9@trebelhorn.com>

Thanks!

I stopped at the local hobby shop this evening.  Got a 12-16v "grain  
of wheat" bulb, 45-50 mw.  Almost an exact match for the dead bulb --  
they even had them in green, like the one I was replacing.  Looks great.

Never would have thought of it myself... thanks, all.
Matt

On 24 Feb, 2008, at 2:42 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:

> They shouldn't be that hard to come by.  Check hobby supply  
> places.  They use them in model RR and doll houses.  Even Radio  
> Shack.  Probably not in stock, though.  Lately all they really sell  
> is cell phones.  Bummer.  Search for "grain of wheat" or "grain of  
> rice".  That's what they call some of those things.  Good luck.
>
> -Steve

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Feb 29 21:55:42 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:55:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
Message-ID: <84159.64259.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

What's the best way to drill a nice clean, round 3/4"
hole in 16 gauge (0.060") sheet steel?  This a car
body, so it would be hard to back up the hole with
anything.

Thanks,

Doug

From rusd at sitestar.net  Fri Feb 29 22:05:44 2008
From: rusd at sitestar.net (Dave Russell)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:05:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <84159.64259.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <84159.64259.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C8E428.8010406@sitestar.net>

I would use a 3/4" hole saw or if there is room, a 3/4" knockout. It's 
pretty hard to keep a regular drill from grabbing & making a mess.

Dave Russell

Doug Braun wrote:

>Hello,
>
>What's the best way to drill a nice clean, round 3/4"
>hole in 16 gauge (0.060") sheet steel?  This a car
>body, so it would be hard to back up the hole with
>anything.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Doug

From trevor at boicey.com  Fri Feb 29 22:18:49 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:18:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <84159.64259.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <84159.64259.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C8E739.6010703@boicey.com>

Doug Braun wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> What's the best way to drill a nice clean, round 3/4"
> hole in 16 gauge (0.060") sheet steel?  This a car
> body, so it would be hard to back up the hole with
> anything.

   Drill an ugly 1/2 hole and expand it with a dremel?

   Cutting torch?

   How clean does it have to be? Are you mounting something that needs a 
3/4" hole but is actually covering a 1" circle?

   The real way to do it is a Greenlee punch, but they are expensive to 
do one job.

From trevor at boicey.com  Fri Feb 29 22:22:00 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:22:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <47C8E739.6010703@boicey.com>
References: <84159.64259.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C8E739.6010703@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <47C8E7F8.7090608@boicey.com>

>    The real way to do it is a Greenlee punch, but they are expensive to 
> do one job.

   ...or maybe they aren't:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330215972861

From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Feb 29 22:28:54 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:28:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <47C8E739.6010703@boicey.com>
References: <84159.64259.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C8E739.6010703@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <47C8E996.4060405@milleredp.com>

>    Drill an ugly 1/2 hole and expand it with a dremel?

Is it a flat or contoured surface?

I've got a few old radio chassis punches in varying condition that 
sometimes come in handy for such things.

Failing that, I think I'd ink/paint the 3/4in diameter on the surface, 
use a really sharp 5/8 or 11/16in holesaw depending on how much wobble 
it had, then clean it up with a 1/2in or so grinding stone in a Dremel 
or die grinder.

John.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Feb 29 22:30:11 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:30:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <47C8E739.6010703@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <803988.99865.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Wow! A lot of people with nothing to do on a Friday
night except stare at a computer screen!  Thanks for
all the quick advice.

I happen to have a decent bi-metal 3/4" hole saw
blade, so I'll try that on a piece of scrap.  If the
hole its too ugly, I'll go over the weekend to the HF
store that just opened a few miles from where I live
and buy one of their Unibit knockoffs.

The holes are for mounting braces on the inner rear
fenders of my '31 ford, and are hidden, so beauty is
not critical.

Doug

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 22:37:33 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 00:37:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <803988.99865.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <47C8E739.6010703@boicey.com>
	<803988.99865.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40802292137l2942b4ccg46e420923d048f25@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Wow! A lot of people with nothing to do on a Friday
>  night except stare at a computer screen!  Thanks for
>  all the quick advice.
>
>  I happen to have a decent bi-metal 3/4" hole saw
>  blade, so I'll try that on a piece of scrap.  If the
>  hole its too ugly, I'll go over the weekend to the HF
>  store that just opened a few miles from where I live
>  and buy one of their Unibit knockoffs.

My hole saws -- which I admit are cheap junk -- all have an awful lot
of set to them, and produce holes bigger than their nominal size.
They're round holes, though, so it might not be a problem.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Feb 29 22:40:37 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 00:40:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <803988.99865.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <803988.99865.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803010036080.25498@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Doug Braun wrote:

> Wow! A lot of people with nothing to do on a Friday night except stare 
> at a computer screen!  Thanks for all the quick advice.
>
> I happen to have a decent bi-metal 3/4" hole saw blade, so I'll try that 
> on a piece of scrap.  If the hole its too ugly, I'll go over the weekend 
> to the HF store that just opened a few miles from where I live and buy 
> one of their Unibit knockoffs.
>
> The holes are for mounting braces on the inner rear fenders of my '31 
> ford, and are hidden, so beauty is not critical.

If that's the case, I'd recommend any of the solutions mentioned... Every
time I use a holesaw, I get something bigger than the diameter of the
holesaw though, but not a huge amount so.

I actually just used my HF unibit clone tonight for the very first time 
(first time for any unibit style drill).  It was on some fairly thick 
stuff... Probably around 1/8" thick steel, so not a direct comparison for 
you.

I was quite pleasantly surprised at how well it worked.  It became my new 
favorite way to get bigger holes in stuff like that!

This is the set I got.  On sale right now as well.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96275

Mark

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Feb 29 22:43:50 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 00:43:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803010036080.25498@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <803988.99865.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803010036080.25498@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803010042390.25498@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Mark Andy wrote:
> This is the set I got.  On sale right now as well.
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96275

Btw, they also sell knockout kits.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91201

I've got one, but haven't used it.  The basics look just like the 
expensive knockout + dimple die I bought from Mittler Bros years ago 
though...

Mark

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Feb 29 23:31:20 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:31:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Drilling holes in sheet metal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803010042390.25498@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <803988.99865.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803010036080.25498@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803010042390.25498@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <0JX100H1XGSC9E42@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>

At 09:43 PM  2/29/2008, Mark Andy wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Mark Andy wrote:
> > This is the set I got.  On sale right now as well.
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96275

I got a set a year or so ago, too.  I use them all the time.  Very 
useful in thin stuff and cost effective.

Dave C