From eric at megageek.com  Mon Dec  1 00:01:00 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:01:00 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] Still building, even in the desert
In-Reply-To: <49334538.8010503@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <OF1A925B19.E23A6004-ON43257512.00274E38-43257512.00275B44@mail.megageek.com>

What base did he go to?  if he comes to Bucca, I'll make sure he gets the 
VIP treatment!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



Donald H Locker <dhlocker at comcast.net> 
12/01/2008 04:50 AM

To
eric at megageek.com
cc
shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] Still building, even in the desert






Hi, Eric.

I finally took a moment to visit your blog space.  Keep up the good work. 
You 
are all in our thoughts.

(BTW, my nephew just shipped to Iraq with the USMC.  Keep the US's best 
feet 
forward for us!)

Donald.

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Hey there all,
> 
> I just wanted to drop you all a line to give you a link to 2 projects I 
> made for myself here in Iraq.
> 
> Not really excellent quality or anything, but considering they were both 

> made 100% from scrap and with limited tools, they are quite a testament 
to 
> the shop skills we use every day.
> 
> Check them out and let me know what you think!
> 
> http://www.megageek.com/blog/Mob2008.nsf
> 
> Moose
> Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Dec  1 07:02:04 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:02:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery minder on sale
Message-ID: <9564414E3435498CA6ED3191462AB95A@OwnerPC>

Northern tool having a sale (cyber Monday)...  this is one of the best
charger/desulphaters I've seen... winter time coming..... these come in handy.
Fifteen bucks off...

john


http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332201_
200332201?cm_ven=Housefile&cm_cat=CYBERFGC&cm_pla=120108consumerNR&cm_ite=P9&
cm_lm=jniolon at bham.rr.com&state=AL&hotline&marketcode=

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Dec  1 07:57:30 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:57:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812010956150.31959@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Randall wrote:

>> An led is a light emitting diode, so I think it will light
>> for one half of the cycle when AC is applied to it.
>
> The fact that only half of them go out would seem to support that theory.
>
> What I don't understand is why you want to pull out one lamp.  Those LEDs
> should be good for upwards of 50,000 hours, which is some 30 years if you
> run them for two months continuously each year.  By that time you can just
> throw the whole string away.

Its a test to see if I'm going to want to strangle Santa with them in a 
year when I pull them out and the stupid thing doesn't light up.

:-)

I'd really like to get some lights where other than me cutting a wire, 
power gets put to all the bulbs no matter what is going on with any 
particular one.

Mark

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Mon Dec  1 08:25:46 2008
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (James F Juhas)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:25:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
In-Reply-To: <CAEFFD6D4B5B461CA5BB32767748BA65@Carroom>
References: <CAEFFD6D4B5B461CA5BB32767748BA65@Carroom>
Message-ID: <493401FA.6050803@snet.net>

That is exactly what I would do, and indeed, what I was going to do when 
my MGA fan lost a blade through my left fender well at 6,000 rpm on the 
Lightening course at NJMP.  Notwithstanding the fact that I picked up 
considerable horsepower after I took the fan off, I doubted the wisdom 
of making the repair after taking a close look at it.  Besides the blade 
that broke off, another had a partial crack and would have been next to 
go.  And this was in September, after a close inspection of the fan in 
August revealed no likely defects.  The moral is to be wary of 
50-year-old steel.

But if you're not racing, and there is no replacement available, welding 
as you describe should fix it.  I would suggest a careful gas weld on a 
beveled seam so as to ensure full penetration and a softer heat temper.  
>From what I understand, mig or tig can result in a more pronounced 
boundary between the weld and the core metal, leaving it susceptible to 
further cracking along that join.  The arc weld could probably be 
annealed if arc welded by heating it and allowing it to cool slowly. 

My comments here are appropriate for a stamped sheet metal blade.  If 
you're talking about a cast piece, I'm sure a different set of rules 
apply, and I have no experience there.

nogera2 at att.net wrote:
> I've got a metal ( very thick ) fan blade, which is no longer available,
> that has a crack in one of the blades. 
> I'm thinking of drilling a hole at the end of the crack and welding it up
> then grinding the weld flush. 
> Anyone see any problem with that or have other suggestions?
>
> Bob 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as james.f.juhas at snet.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>   


-- 

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of james_f_juhas.vcf]

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 08:36:18 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:36:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812010956150.31959@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812010956150.31959@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812010736g67ffda6qa289e5aa8de8a067@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Randall wrote:
>
>>> An led is a light emitting diode, so I think it will light
>>> for one half of the cycle when AC is applied to it.
>>
>> The fact that only half of them go out would seem to support that theory.
>>
>> What I don't understand is why you want to pull out one lamp.  Those LEDs
>> should be good for upwards of 50,000 hours, which is some 30 years if you
>> run them for two months continuously each year.  By that time you can just
>> throw the whole string away.
>
> Its a test to see if I'm going to want to strangle Santa with them in a year
> when I pull them out and the stupid thing doesn't light up.
>
> :-)
>
> I'd really like to get some lights where other than me cutting a wire, power
> gets put to all the bulbs no matter what is going on with any particular
> one.

Get lights with C7 bulbs.  (or c7 led units.)  That's the big,
actually screws in like a lightbulb, bulb.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 08:55:54 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:55:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
In-Reply-To: <493401FA.6050803@snet.net>
References: <CAEFFD6D4B5B461CA5BB32767748BA65@Carroom>
	<493401FA.6050803@snet.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812010755p2969caday1801ff0004d480a2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:25 AM, James F Juhas <james.f.juhas at snet.net> wrote:
> That is exactly what I would do, and indeed, what I was going to do when
> my MGA fan lost a blade through my left fender well at 6,000 rpm on the
> Lightening course at NJMP.  Notwithstanding the fact that I picked up
> considerable horsepower after I took the fan off, I doubted the wisdom
> of making the repair after taking a close look at it.  Besides the blade
> that broke off, another had a partial crack and would have been next to
> go.  And this was in September, after a close inspection of the fan in
> August revealed no likely defects.  The moral is to be wary of
> 50-year-old steel.

will magnafluxing or the like detect cracks that aren't yet at the surface?

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Dec  1 09:18:20 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:18:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery minder on sale
In-Reply-To: <9564414E3435498CA6ED3191462AB95A@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <20081201161820.FSRM4332.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

john niolon wrote :

> Northern tool having a sale (cyber Monday)...  this is one of 
> the best charger/desulphaters I've seen... 

That URL again :

http://tinyurl.com/6ef4s4

Randall

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Mon Dec  1 09:35:12 2008
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (James F Juhas)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:35:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812010755p2969caday1801ff0004d480a2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEFFD6D4B5B461CA5BB32767748BA65@Carroom>	
	<493401FA.6050803@snet.net>
	<2400a5d40812010755p2969caday1801ff0004d480a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49341240.1080503@snet.net>

It's supposed to, but I gave some doubts.  NDI was my specialty when I 
was in the Air Force many years ago.  I don't recall ever magnafluxing 
something that thin.  It was usually castings and much heavier pieces.  
I don't know if a sub-surface crack in a steel .060 to .100 inches thick 
would set up a pole that would attract the material.  Or if there would 
be any sub-surface irregularity that will show up that would predict 
failure. 

I solved my doubts with an electric fan.

David Scheidt wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:25 AM, James F Juhas <james.f.juhas at snet.net> wrote:
>   
>> That is exactly what I would do, and indeed, what I was going to do when
>> my MGA fan lost a blade through my left fender well at 6,000 rpm on the
>> Lightening course at NJMP.  Notwithstanding the fact that I picked up
>> considerable horsepower after I took the fan off, I doubted the wisdom
>> of making the repair after taking a close look at it.  Besides the blade
>> that broke off, another had a partial crack and would have been next to
>> go.  And this was in September, after a close inspection of the fan in
>> August revealed no likely defects.  The moral is to be wary of
>> 50-year-old steel.
>>     
>
> will magnafluxing or the like detect cracks that aren't yet at the surface?
>
>   


-- 

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of james_f_juhas.vcf]

From mbarre at juno.com  Mon Dec  1 09:47:47 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:47:47 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery minder on sale
Message-ID: <20081201.114747.16082.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

I have had the six place unit on backorder from them for a couple of weeks
now.  It is only $5 or so off their regular price.
Matt

-- "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
Northern tool having a sale (cyber Monday)...  this is one of the best
charger/desulphaters I've seen... winter time coming..... these come in
handy.
Fifteen bucks off...

john


http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332201_
200332201?cm_ven=Housefile&cm_cat=CYBERFGC&cm_pla=120108consumerNR&cm_ite=P9&
cm_lm=jniolon at bham.rr.com&state=AL&hotline&marketcode=

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul.
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

____________________________________________________________
Free information on becoming a Graphic Designer. Click Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3huIANZ39aSVnE1YXqRBbi8Mfmn
ZYB6vF1E6QwubY5lVkM2/

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Mon Dec  1 11:18:01 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:18:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
References: <CAEFFD6D4B5B461CA5BB32767748BA65@Carroom>
	<493401FA.6050803@snet.net>
	<2400a5d40812010755p2969caday1801ff0004d480a2@mail.gmail.com>
	<49341240.1080503@snet.net>
Message-ID: <C6486164932F4D64B4878297137F8354@fred8kwiskhcfu>

The bad thing about welding a fan blade back on is the fan will now be way 
out of =="balance"==  "FT"
============================================================================================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James F Juhas" <james.f.juhas at snet.net>
To: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
Cc: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade


> It's supposed to, but I gave some doubts.  NDI was my specialty when I
> was in the Air Force many years ago.  I don't recall ever magnafluxing
> something that thin.  It was usually castings and much heavier pieces.
> I don't know if a sub-surface crack in a steel .060 to .100 inches thick
> would set up a pole that would attract the material.  Or if there would
> be any sub-surface irregularity that will show up that would predict
> failure.
>
> I solved my doubts with an electric fan.
>
> David Scheidt wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:25 AM, James F Juhas <james.f.juhas at snet.net> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That is exactly what I would do, and indeed, what I was going to do when
>>> my MGA fan lost a blade through my left fender well at 6,000 rpm on the
>>> Lightening course at NJMP.  Notwithstanding the fact that I picked up
>>> considerable horsepower after I took the fan off, I doubted the wisdom
>>> of making the repair after taking a close look at it.  Besides the blade
>>> that broke off, another had a partial crack and would have been next to
>>> go.  And this was in September, after a close inspection of the fan in
>>> August revealed no likely defects.  The moral is to be wary of
>>> 50-year-old steel.
>>>
>>
>> will magnafluxing or the like detect cracks that aren't yet at the 
>> surface?
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name 
> of james_f_juhas.vcf]
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as res8vz9q at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Mon Dec  1 11:30:01 2008
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (James F Juhas)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:30:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
In-Reply-To: <C6486164932F4D64B4878297137F8354@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <CAEFFD6D4B5B461CA5BB32767748BA65@Carroom>
	<493401FA.6050803@snet.net>
	<2400a5d40812010755p2969caday1801ff0004d480a2@mail.gmail.com>
	<49341240.1080503@snet.net>
	<C6486164932F4D64B4878297137F8354@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <49342D29.40409@snet.net>

Not as far out of balance when I lost one of six blades.  I thought the 
whole car was going to shake itself apart!

If carefully done, and ground smooth to finish, I would guess that the 
balance would be close to original, and perhaps it could then be 
balanced with the judicious removal of material from the heavy side, 
like at the tips of the blades.

But then, all of this is why my fan remains in two parts as an art 
object and conversation piece.  And MGA fans are not in short supply: my 
junk box turned up three more, but now I'm afraid to use one.

FRED E THOMAS wrote:
> The bad thing about welding a fan blade back on is the fan will now be 
> way out of =="balance"==  "FT"
> ============================================================================================================ 
>
>>>> when
>>>> my MGA fan lost a blade through my left fender well at 6,000 rpm on 
>>>> the
>>>> Lightening course at NJMP.
>
>


-- 

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of james_f_juhas.vcf]

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  1 11:40:36 2008
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:40:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Free Craftsman Cordless Drill - Who wants it?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20081201012211.03e90680@technologist.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20081201012211.03e90680@technologist.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081201133725.03b3e398@yahoo.com>

Matt Trebelhorn is the lucky recipient.

Thanks for playing...   :-)



At 12/1/2008 at 01:42, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Richard 
Beels's keyboard and said:
>Read before blindly hitting reply...  :-)
<snipped>


Cheers!

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Dec  1 12:00:12 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:00:12 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
Message-ID: <120120081900.7690.4934343C000CF7F100001E0A22165279669D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

> Get lights with C7 bulbs.  (or c7 led units.)  That's the big,
> actually screws in like a lightbulb, bulb.

Like a nite-lite bulb.  That's what I have for holiday lights on my porch.

Can you actually get LED units that screw into such a string (or nite-lite!) without modification?  I have not seen these.

Time to go shopping.  The incandescents use 4 watts each and don't last forever.


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Dec  1 12:35:23 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:35:23 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
References: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <06B03A04AAE14827887C1FC1840DE3B5@KARL>

> What I don't understand is why you want to pull out one lamp.
> Randall


It's not necessary to "want" to pull out a lamp - cheaply-made push-in bulbs 
tend to fall out when being handled - or sometimes just sitting in the 
intense vibration of a Christmas tree branch.  They also just lose contact 
while sitting there - I guess due to either corrosion or plastic shrinkage 
??

That'd be the value of an all-soldered assembly.

Karl

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Dec  1 15:09:04 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:09:04 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <06B03A04AAE14827887C1FC1840DE3B5@KARL>
References: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<06B03A04AAE14827887C1FC1840DE3B5@KARL>
Message-ID: <130FC8A7F09849D3AC7A2B2B2690442E@jdnet.deere.com>

> It's not necessary to "want" to pull out a lamp - 
> cheaply-made push-in bulbs 
> tend to fall out when being handled - or sometimes just 
> sitting in the 
> intense vibration of a Christmas tree branch. 

Hokay, if you say so.  But even living in Shakey Town, I've never had one
come out on it's own.  

Nor does it seem that difficult to locate and replace a missing bulb.

But then, I'm crazy enough to have series sets going back over 50 years
(from my great-grandmother), so I could be mistaken <G>

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Dec  1 15:54:26 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:54:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
References: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall><06B03A04AAE14827887C1FC1840DE3B5@KARL>
	<130FC8A7F09849D3AC7A2B2B2690442E@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4DA21FE7F6694191877DED89974B755D@KARL>

Sure - I have some Noma sets from when I was a kid - and some a little 
older - with C7 bulbs - that work fine.  But those hot bulbs are only usable 
on a real tree or outside...

We went to what used to be called "Italian" lights years ago, for our 10' 
fake tree.  The best brand has long been Silvestri - though that may have 
changed in the last 2-3 years.  We have some GE, etc. too, and besides 
miinor variations they're all pretty similar.  Nonetheless, they do come 
loose through handling, and even while sitting on the branch they do on 
occasion come loose enough not to work.  Sometimes when I'm lucky, flicking 
each one will find the loose one, and you pull it out and splay the bulb 
wires out and it works.  Sometimes you have to do that to each bulb till it 
the string suddenly works.  It happens.

Karl

PS - 50 years ago isn't THAT long ago...  Great grandmother - geez   ;-)



> Hokay, if you say so.  But even living in Shakey Town, I've never had one
> come out on it's own.
>
> Nor does it seem that difficult to locate and replace a missing bulb.
>
> But then, I'm crazy enough to have series sets going back over 50 years
> (from my great-grandmother), so I could be mistaken <G>
>
> Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 17:31:13 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:31:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <120120081900.7690.4934343C000CF7F100001E0A22165279669D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <120120081900.7690.4934343C000CF7F100001E0A22165279669D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812011631u72908c6cs8f55e41bc020e2e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Get lights with C7 bulbs.  (or c7 led units.)  That's the big,
>> actually screws in like a lightbulb, bulb.
>
> Like a nite-lite bulb.  That's what I have for holiday lights on my porch.
>
> Can you actually get LED units that screw into such a string (or nite-lite!) without modification?  I have not seen these.
>

Yes.  Much, much cheaper to buy a whole string, rather than individual
bulbs.  (Bulbs are about a buck a pop, in quantity, maybe a quarter on
the string....)



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  1 19:18:57 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:18:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812011631u72908c6cs8f55e41bc020e2e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <120120081900.7690.4934343C000CF7F100001E0A22165279669D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40812011631u72908c6cs8f55e41bc020e2e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W50B6D1AA9B744FB0499B92E1000@phx.gbl>

That size of blub will cost a LOT more to use.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that
is my car! See it moves!> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:31:13 -0500> From:
dmscheidt at gmail.com> To: pethier at comcast.net> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?> > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008
at 2:00 PM, <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:> >> Get lights with C7 bulbs. (or c7
led units.) That's the big,> >> actually screws in like a lightbulb, bulb.> >>
> Like a nite-lite bulb. That's what I have for holiday lights on my porch.>
>> > Can you actually get LED units that screw into such a string (or
nite-lite!) without modification? I have not seen these.> >> > Yes. Much, much
cheaper to buy a whole string, rather than individual> bulbs. (Bulbs are about
a buck a pop, in quantity, maybe a quarter on> the string....)> > > > -- >
David Scheidt> dmscheidt at gmail.com>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as
rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk> >
http://www.team.net/archive

From racertod at racertodd.com  Mon Dec  1 23:03:52 2008
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:03:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <120120081900.7690.4934343C000CF7F100001E0A22165279669D0A07
	089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20081201220218.00bd4d20@mail.blarg.net>

Phil wrote:

>Can you actually get LED units that screw into such a string (or 
>nite-lite!) without modification?  I have not seen these.

http://www.foreverledchristmaslights.com/shop/home.php
http://www.christmaslightsetc.com/c7-c9-LED-Christmas-Lights--699.htm
http://www.bulklights.com/


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 268,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       186,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Dec  3 22:23:22 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 00:23:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Multi zone heating....? (and variable speed fan
 motors)
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W280AEFEC2D9743B7D079AB9A010@phx.gbl>
References: <4931C1E8.4060803@boicey.com>
	<BAY108-W280AEFEC2D9743B7D079AB9A010@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2939.192.168.2.100.1228368202.squirrel@192.168.2.1>

> I was the one that asked the question back in July, and I did get one
> private response, but I have lost the email.  I don't believe anyone
> responded to the list.

  (I'll cc the list to see if anyone else can contribute)

  Was your original question about the availability of square dampers? If
so, yes they are out there, I can give you links if you decide to pursue
it again.

  I haven't done anything yet, but I have traced enough of my ducts to
know that I can get three zones pretty easily. Basement as a zone,
ground and upper floors as a zone, and a sunroom-style addition as a
zone. It's the latter that is the most troublesome, as it loses so much
heat it's pretty much unusable in the winter unless I leave the door
open and the furnace fan on.

  So if I limit myself to the above, I can put all the dampers in the
furnace room right where they all diverge, simplest installation.

  If I could though, I would like to separate the ground floor from the
upstairs, but that might be hard to do based on where I think the ducts
go. That might require putting the dampers at the exits of the ducts,
and fishing the wires back down the ducts to the controllers. Maybe not
as a first step.

  That's about where I sit. I am just about to order the kit, but I might
not get all the dampers right away. I might just run it as a very
expensive digital thermostat with three screens, but it would be an
upgrade from the mechanical one this house came with until I get my
stuff together.

  I would also like to replace my fan motor with a variable speed one,
which the Envirazone can apparently control.

  Does anybody know how these work? The envirazone surely only has low
voltage control, can I get a generic variable speed motor, bolt it where
mine is, and somehow wire that up?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 00:17:25 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:17:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Multi zone heating....? (and variable speed fan
 motors)
In-Reply-To: <2939.192.168.2.100.1228368202.squirrel@192.168.2.1>
Message-ID: <20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

>   I would also like to replace my fan motor with a variable 
> speed one, which the Envirazone can apparently control.

Not sure if it's the right panel, but the wiring instructions I found at
http://tinyurl.com/6k56tl
seem to indicate that it's not equipped to control a variable speed fan.  A
comment at
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=117795
seems to say the same thing.

However, you could probably rig it to use 3 separate speeds, by using the
second and third stage heat outputs (assuming you aren't already using them
to control the heat).

>   Does anybody know how these work? The envirazone surely 
> only has low voltage control, can I get a generic variable 
> speed motor, bolt it where mine is, and somehow wire that up?

To do as I've suggested, you'd need to wire some 24v relays into the motor's
speed control.  Shouldn't be too hard for a conventional multi-speed motor;
but I'm not sure how to do it for a variable speed.  I assume that, for a
variable speed motor, you would also need some sort of electronic control
(eg VFD), which would probably take an analog voltage as input.  So you'd
need to wire those relays  to provide a stepped voltage (eg switch resistors
in series).

Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Dec  4 19:40:43 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:40:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating
In-Reply-To: <20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <2939.192.168.2.100.1228368202.squirrel@192.168.2.1>
	<20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>

I didn't want to hijack the previous thread, so I am starting my own.  We live
in a 95 year old house with hot water radiator heat.  I know that in other
countries you can replace the radiator shut off valves with thermostatically
controlled one, creating room by room zones.  However, I have looked and can't
find anything like that here.  Is anyone aware of a US supplier of these?

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
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2008

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Dec  4 20:47:11 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:47:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shielding gas tank
Message-ID: <BAY101-W11AB3FD62F199DCBEACBECCFE0@phx.gbl>

With the advice of this group, I now have a Hobart Handler 140 MIG welder.  I
have done a couple of light projects with the flux core wire that came with
the unit and the difference between this and the cheap hobby welder I had
before is enormous, but need to do a fair bit more (primarily patch the rusty
floors on my '63 Sunbeam Alpine) over the winter.  So, it is time to buy a
tank and shielding gas.  I will certainly want to start with an Argon/CO2 mix
for the sheet metal work, and I think this will probably be fine for most any
other repairs that come my way.  There is a chance that I will want to try
welding stainless steel exhaust next year, and I suppose Aluminum is always a
possibility down the road.

So, with this as background, I come to the tank.  The primary local supplier
recommends their tank exchange program, which seems like the best deal to me.
I'd pay $91.50 for a 20 cu ft tank and about $42 for the Argon/CO2 to fill it.
One advantage of this program is that I could just exchange the tank for a
straight argon or triple mix one if I need to work with stainless or aluminum.
I'd be out the wasted gas on both ends, but that doesn't seem too bad a deal.

But, here's my dilemma: a 40 cu ft tank would run me $142, but only about $45
to fill it.  (I assume they must have a minimum charge).  So, I would break
about even if I used the full tank before I exchanged it, but would be out the
$50 if I ended up swapping the tanks out when they were only half empty.  And,
of course, I increase my waste every time I swap tanks.

How long does 20 cu ft of shielding gas last?  Given the minimal cost
difference between 20 and 40 cu feet of my primary shielding gas (I have no
idea what they get for other mixes), am I stupid to even question this?

As always, thanks.

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Dec  4 21:30:43 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:30:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shielding gas tank
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W11AB3FD62F199DCBEACBECCFE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <521344.62865.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The welding books I have read suggested about 10 liters/minute for the gas flow.  There are 28.3 liters in one cubic foot.  So a 20 cu ft gas cylinder should last for about an hour of welding.

Now, how long it will take you to do an hour of welding, I cannot say.
Could be anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of years.

I've forgotten my cylinder's size, but it is 26" from the base to the top of the valve handle.  (It's probably 40 cu ft.)  I last filled it 5 years ago, and it is almost empty now.  During that time I have done a bunch of small projects, including all the sheet metal repairs on my '31 Ford (see 31ford.dougbraun.com).

Doug


--- On Thu, 12/4/08, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:


> How long does 20 cu ft of shielding gas last?  Given the
> minimal cost
> difference between 20 and 40 cu feet of my primary
> shielding gas (I have no
> idea what they get for other mixes), am I stupid to even
> question this?

From trevor at boicey.com  Thu Dec  4 22:16:40 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:16:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Multi zone heating....? (and variable speed fan
 motors)
In-Reply-To: <20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <4938B938.4030803@boicey.com>

Randall wrote:
>>   Does anybody know how these work? The envirazone surely 
>> only has low voltage control, can I get a generic variable 
>> speed motor, bolt it where mine is, and somehow wire that up?
> 
> To do as I've suggested, you'd need to wire some 24v relays into the motor's
> speed control.  Shouldn't be too hard for a conventional multi-speed motor;
> but I'm not sure how to do it for a variable speed.

   Wait, I think I just learned enough to realize that my original 
question was confused.

   I think I was thinking "multi speed" rather than variable speed. I 
didn't realize there was more than one option, I certainly don't need 
infinitely variable speeds.

   Really what I'd probably want is just, instead of the motor turning 
off completely, to just drop down to a low enough speed where it is 
mostly quiet and relatively cheap on electricity. Just enough to keep 
the air circulating so that the house doesn't have as many cold spots.

   Would this be something I could do just wiring up the motor? Could it 
be as simple as just permanently bridging the low speed input on, and 
allowing the thermostat to toggle the high speed as needed?

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Dec  4 22:28:45 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:28:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>
References: <2939.192.168.2.100.1228368202.squirrel@192.168.2.1>
	<20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2AB97192-5324-4C6E-958A-6AAD49508F62@groupwbench.org>

On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Jim Stone wrote:

> I didn't want to hijack the previous thread, so I am starting my  
> own.  We live
> in a 95 year old house with hot water radiator heat.  I know that in  
> other
> countries you can replace the radiator shut off valves with  
> thermostatically
> controlled one, creating room by room zones.  However, I have looked  
> and can't
> find anything like that here.  Is anyone aware of a US supplier of  
> these?

Thermostatic radiator valves. I don't know of a specific US supplier,  
but Danfoss makes them and are the most recommended manufacturer I've  
seen. Google brought up many options.

jim

jim

From trevor at boicey.com  Thu Dec  4 22:37:33 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:37:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>
References: <2939.192.168.2.100.1228368202.squirrel@192.168.2.1>
	<20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4938BE1D.5000808@boicey.com>

Jim Stone wrote:
> I didn't want to hijack the previous thread, so I am starting my own.  We live
> in a 95 year old house with hot water radiator heat.  I know that in other
> countries you can replace the radiator shut off valves with thermostatically
> controlled one, creating room by room zones.  However, I have looked and can't
> find anything like that here.  Is anyone aware of a US supplier of these?

   The Honeywell envirazone I was mentioning can work this way, I think.

   All that really changes is replacing the air duct dampers with the 
water valves. This gives you all the zoning features including 
programmability for time of day and so on, but you have to run three 
wire cable to a central controller from every valve.

   Sounds like what you are talking about is local control for each room 
based on the temp in that room only, no networking needed.

   I would guess that you might just be able to take these motorized 
valves and connect them to a basic thermostat with a transformer for 
power? Probably ok as long as some radiators remain open all the time 
and there is no chance of blocking the circulation of water.

   Have a look at ebay auctions 380087436002 and 110320112584 for 24V 
ones. They seem to come in normally open and normally closed. I think 
with the envirazone you can use normally open so they fail open if the 
power goes off.

   You might want normally closed for thermostat use as most thermostats 
want to apply voltage when heat is needed. It looks like these have a 
manual bypass lever if the system or power fails.

   Ebay item 390008703114 looks similar but in a 120V configuration, 
might work with those wall thermostats for baseboard heating that switch 
the whole current rather than just trigger a relay somewhere else.

From trevor at boicey.com  Thu Dec  4 22:41:07 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:41:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shielding gas tank
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W11AB3FD62F199DCBEACBECCFE0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY101-W11AB3FD62F199DCBEACBECCFE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4938BEF3.1090909@boicey.com>

Jim Stone wrote:
> How long does 20 cu ft of shielding gas last?  Given the minimal cost
> difference between 20 and 40 cu feet of my primary shielding gas (I have no
> idea what they get for other mixes), am I stupid to even question this?

   Mine is the 40cu ft. I'd say get the biggest bottle you are 
comfortable living with.

   And yes, the exchange programs work great because some times you go a 
long time between refills.

   I think I am on about my fifth bottle in about 10 years. With that I 
restored two cars and did a few dozen small jobs.

   When doing a lot of welding (car bodywork) you might have to replace 
the bottle a few times. When just doing odd jobs, it might last years, 
which makes renting the bottles like the shops do a bit silly.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 23:01:34 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:01:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shielding gas tank
In-Reply-To: <4938BEF3.1090909@boicey.com>
References: <BAY101-W11AB3FD62F199DCBEACBECCFE0@phx.gbl>
	<4938BEF3.1090909@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812042201l3ed5f0a2tec746c085b558051@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:41 AM, Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com> wrote:
> Jim Stone wrote:
>>
>> How long does 20 cu ft of shielding gas last?  Given the minimal cost
>> difference between 20 and 40 cu feet of my primary shielding gas (I have
>> no
>> idea what they get for other mixes), am I stupid to even question this?
>
>  Mine is the 40cu ft. I'd say get the biggest bottle you are comfortable
> living with.

I've got an 80 foot bottle.  I wanted to buy a 20 ft bottle, but the
guy at the gas supply talked me into a 40 ft one.  I got the 80 ft
when I went to swap tanks, and they didn't have one my size, so they
gave me a bigger one.  I'm glad to have it.  the difference in filling
them is trivial (it was less than five bucks at the time. )  You might
also ask what it costs to swap sizes.  (They may do it for the
difference, or something close to it, if you decide you bought too
small.)  And, consider how often you'll do work requiring some other
gas; some places will rent you a cylinder for not a whole lot.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 00:26:14 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:26:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081205072614.LMDE20835.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I didn't want to hijack the previous thread, so I am starting 
> my own.  We live in a 95 year old house with hot water 
> radiator heat.  I know that in other countries you can 
> replace the radiator shut off valves with thermostatically 
> controlled one, creating room by room zones.

One thing you need to check out first is whether the radiators are plumbed
in series or parallel; or a combination.  The one I lived in had the
radiators in series, so that shutting off one radiator would stop all of
them (and likely cause serious problems with the pump).

As mentioned, there are lots of hits with Google; here's one that might be
suitable
http://www.pexsupply.com/product_dtl.asp?pID=10861&brand=Honeywell&cID=411

Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Dec  5 18:33:41 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:33:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>
References: <2939.192.168.2.100.1228368202.squirrel@192.168.2.1><20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BE1F4BB4DBB9473C9A16C8AD79D350B6@HPPavilion>

Jim,

I've traded up on tank size with my distributor, so if you are not happy
with the smaller size, you likely can trade up. It'll cost more than buying
it up front, but it's an option.  

I don't remember how big my bottle is, but it's about four feet tall.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:41 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating

I didn't want to hijack the previous thread, so I am starting my own.  We
live in a 95 year old house with hot water radiator heat.  I know that in
other countries you can replace the radiator shut off valves with
thermostatically controlled one, creating room by room zones.  However, I
have looked and can't find anything like that here.  Is anyone aware of a US
supplier of these?

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_1
2
2008
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sat Dec  6 10:35:38 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:35:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Caulking large gap
Message-ID: <E81592E9-49FD-4EA6-BDE7-E1AF10B2D6DD@groupwbench.org>

I cut the bottom course of tiles too short and now have a 3/4" gap  
between them and the tub. The backerboard is also trimmed a bit high  
so I can't cement thin slices of tile in there. I think it would look  
hideous with the gap filled with caulk, even if it was applied neatly.  
Anything to remedy this? I suppose I could lay down a spacer, then  
fill the gap with mortar all the way to the tub flange and put thin  
tile slices into that, then caulk the smaller gap where the spacer  
was, but mentally I was done with the mortar and don't really want to  
start that up again. Plus it would announce the screw-up moreso than  
caulk :-)

thanks,
jim

From scottmryan at netzero.net  Sat Dec  6 10:39:50 2008
From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan at netzero.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 17:39:50 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
Message-ID: <20081206.113950.6316.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

 If you are at all careful, it should be fine, I balanced the fan I rewelded
by putting extra metal on the other side. removing material from the tips of
the blades should work fine too.I did have a water pump shaft break (on a 69
merc 429)while I was up front revving it up trying to get the back barrels on
a autolite 4bbl to kick in reliably (kicked in that time!) sheared through
both fan belts,and cut most of the way through the radiator (about 20"
circle)scared the hell out of me! this was not the fan I welded, it was stock
(w/ a fan clutch) Scott RyanPS: I did have a fan clutch that lost it's
bearings, and I thought thatwas going to shake itself apart (89 chev blazer
v6)James F Juhas wrote:>Not as far out of balance when I lost one of six
blades.  I thought the whole car was going to shake itself apart!>If carefully
done, and ground smooth to finish, I would guess that the balance would be
close to original, and perhaps it could then be >balanced with the judicious
removal of material from the heavy side, like at the tips of the blades.>But
then, all of this is why my fan remains in two parts as an art object and
conversation piece.  And MGA fans are not in short supply: my >junk box turned
up three more, but now I'm afraid to use one.>FRED E THOMAS wrote:>> The bad
thing about welding a fan blade back on is the fan will now be >> way out of
=="balance"==  "FT"
____________________________________________________________
Click for online loan, fast & no lender fee, approval today
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6rx9LUB1SE1E19dlBT9SiHoxJ2R
HfZV3ZDyeyzmfpyezQHnG4W/

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Sat Dec  6 10:53:01 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 09:53:01 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
In-Reply-To: <20081206.113950.6316.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <C55FFBFD.6937%kennedybc@comcast.net>

The two blade fan on my Model A broke and put a mighty dent in the hood and
bent it out of shape. I've heard people have been killed revving up the
engine when these fans break. Easy to believe from what I saw. I'd like to
keep the A original, but I like living better, so I replaced it with a
modern 4 blade that looks like crossed stampings. The two blade is an odd
construction. Hard to describe, but it does appear to be seam welded and
ground smooth. 
Brian
-- 
> From: "scottmryan at netzero.net" <scottmryan at netzero.net>
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 17:39:50 GMT
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
> 
>  If you are at all careful, it should be fine, I balanced the fan I rewelded
> by putting extra metal on the other side. removing material from the tips of
> the blades should work fine too.I did have a water pump shaft break (on a 69
> merc 429)while I was up front revving it up trying to get the back barrels on
> a autolite 4bbl to kick in reliably (kicked in that time!) sheared through
> both fan belts,and cut most of the way through the radiator (about 20"
> circle)scared the hell out of me! this was not the fan I welded, it was stock
> (w/ a fan clutch) Scott RyanPS: I did have a fan clutch that lost it's
> bearings, and I thought thatwas going to shake itself apart (89 chev blazer
> v6)James F Juhas wrote:>Not as far out of balance when I lost one of six
> blades.  I thought the whole car was going to shake itself apart!>If carefully
> done, and ground smooth to finish, I would guess that the balance would be
> close to original, and perhaps it could then be >balanced with the judicious
> removal of material from the heavy side, like at the tips of the blades.>But
> then, all of this is why my fan remains in two parts as an art object and
> conversation piece.  And MGA fans are not in short supply: my >junk box turned
> up three more, but now I'm afraid to use one.>FRED E THOMAS wrote:>> The bad
> thing about welding a fan blade back on is the fan will now be >> way out of
> =="balance"==  "FT"
> ______________

From scottmryan at netzero.net  Sat Dec  6 11:04:22 2008
From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan at netzero.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:04:22 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
Message-ID: <20081206.120422.6316.2@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

 >> An led is a light emitting diode, so I think it will light >> for one half
of the cycle when AC is applied to it.>The fact that only half of them go out
would seem to support that theory.>What I don't understand is why you want to
pull out one lamp.  Those LEDs>should be good for upwards of 50,000 hours,
which is some 30 years if you>run them for two months continuously each year.
By that time you can just>throw the whole string away.>Randalloperative word
here is 'should' last 50k to 100k hours; these are usually chinese LEDs, and
they usually run them at thier upper end (current) of what they can handle,
and the LEDs from china are very inconsistant (at least they were last year)
so sometimes one goes out.
The better LED lights have a circuit that smooths out the pulses from AC to
light continuously, although the christmas LED strings I bought this year are
indeed only lit 1/2 cycle.

Scott R
____________________________________________________________
Love Graphic Design? Find a school near you. Click Now.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6ryAdIblKEiQQTkY5CtnjQFrRip
Cych6sBfH3Yuwb2nD8qRbvQ/

From 57healey at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 11:31:10 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:31:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <BAY123-W449E17EF2AEF277788F3D6E1010@phx.gbl>
	<20081201035950.JTHH25405.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0812061031v41911be4o43b8dbf599320a0d@mail.gmail.com>

They can break, can't they?

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:59 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> What I don't understand is why you want to pull out one lamp.  Those LEDs
> should be good for upwards of 50,000 hours, which is some 30 years if you
> run them for two months continuously each year.  By that time you can just
> throw the whole string away.



-- 
Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."
1977 Newport '28

From dreinsch at swbell.net  Sat Dec  6 11:33:23 2008
From: dreinsch at swbell.net (Dwade Reinsch)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:33:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Caulking large gap
In-Reply-To: <E81592E9-49FD-4EA6-BDE7-E1AF10B2D6DD@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <220976.66035.qm@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Can you add a "trim" piece of tile of contrasting color at the bottom to clean
it up?
 
Dwade

--- On Sat, 12/6/08, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:

From: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Caulking large gap
To: "shop-talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 11:35 AM

I cut the bottom course of tiles too short and now have a 3/4" gap
between them and the tub. The backerboard is also trimmed a bit high
so I can't cement thin slices of tile in there. I think it would look
hideous with the gap filled with caulk, even if it was applied neatly.
Anything to remedy this? I suppose I could lay down a spacer, then
fill the gap with mortar all the way to the tub flange and put thin
tile slices into that, then caulk the smaller gap where the spacer
was, but mentally I was done with the mortar and don't really want to
start that up again. Plus it would announce the screw-up moreso than
caulk :-)

thanks,
jim
You are subscribed as dreinsch at swbell.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sat Dec  6 11:36:45 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 13:36:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Caulking large gap
In-Reply-To: <220976.66035.qm@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <220976.66035.qm@web80205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E5D4C601-E3DD-430F-8B8C-D5ABC68FF858@groupwbench.org>

On Dec 6, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Dwade Reinsch wrote:

> Can you add a "trim" piece of tile of contrasting color at the  
> bottom to clean it up?
>
> Dwade

Nope..I didn't cut them all, only the ones that wouldn't fit. Somehow,  
despite meticulous attention to getting the subfloor level, the tub  
top is not level, so only some tiles had to be trimmed. Impatience won  
out over quality.

jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 13:51:51 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:51:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] xmas lights that don't suck?
In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f0812061031v41911be4o43b8dbf599320a0d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081206205152.YUMM29639.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> They can break, can't they?

Solid plastic; takes a lot to break them.  I don't doubt it can be done ...
there are times I've been tempted to take a hammer to them myself ... but
odds are that the sockets and wires wouldn't survive that level of abuse
anyway.

Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Dec  6 14:41:27 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:41:27 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shielding gas tank
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812042201l3ed5f0a2tec746c085b558051@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY101-W11AB3FD62F199DCBEACBECCFE0@phx.gbl>
	<4938BEF3.1090909@boicey.com> 
	<2400a5d40812042201l3ed5f0a2tec746c085b558051@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL110-W716AAEF7CE035D5A073E85CCFF0@phx.gbl>

Thanks everyone.  It's unanimous; I'll go with the larger one.

> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:01:34 -0500
> From: dmscheidt at gmail.com
> To: trevor at boicey.com
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shielding gas tank
> CC: jandkstone99 at msn.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:41 AM, Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com> wrote:
> > Jim Stone wrote:
> >>
> >> How long does 20 cu ft of shielding gas last?  Given the minimal cost
> >> difference between 20 and 40 cu feet of my primary shielding gas (I have
> >> no
> >> idea what they get for other mixes), am I stupid to even question this?
> >
> >  Mine is the 40cu ft. I'd say get the biggest bottle you are comfortable
> > living with.
>
> I've got an 80 foot bottle.  I wanted to buy a 20 ft bottle, but the
> guy at the gas supply talked me into a 40 ft one.  I got the 80 ft
> when I went to swap tanks, and they didn't have one my size, so they
> gave me a bigger one.  I'm glad to have it.  the difference in filling
> them is trivial (it was less than five bucks at the time. )  You might
> also ask what it costs to swap sizes.  (They may do it for the
> difference, or something close to it, if you decide you bought too
> small.)  And, consider how often you'll do work requiring some other
> gas; some places will rent you a cylinder for not a whole lot.
>
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12
2008

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Dec  6 15:24:05 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:24:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating
In-Reply-To: <2AB97192-5324-4C6E-958A-6AAD49508F62@groupwbench.org>
References: <2939.192.168.2.100.1228368202.squirrel@192.168.2.1>
	<20081204071724.MWZG27302.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<COL110-W68471AF0AA8346A4601EB5CCFE0@phx.gbl> 
	<2AB97192-5324-4C6E-958A-6AAD49508F62@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <BAY101-W55FB17271C654BC9FB6711CCFF0@phx.gbl>

Thanks.  That's the term I needed to know.  I've got some studying to do to be
sure that it will work with my system, but I've got a place to start now.

> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:28:45 -0500
> From: jamesf at groupwbench.org
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] A different kind of Multi zone heating
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Jim Stone wrote:
>
> > I didn't want to hijack the previous thread, so I am starting my
> > own.  We live
> > in a 95 year old house with hot water radiator heat.  I know that in
> > other
> > countries you can replace the radiator shut off valves with
> > thermostatically
> > controlled one, creating room by room zones.  However, I have looked
> > and can't
> > find anything like that here.  Is anyone aware of a US supplier of
> > these?
>
> Thermostatic radiator valves. I don't know of a specific US supplier,
> but Danfoss makes them and are the most recommended manufacturer I've
> seen. Google brought up many options.
>
> jim
>
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Suspicious message? Theres an alert for that.
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22008

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Sat Dec  6 18:40:53 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 19:40:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Caulking large gap
In-Reply-To: <E81592E9-49FD-4EA6-BDE7-E1AF10B2D6DD@groupwbench.org>
References: <E81592E9-49FD-4EA6-BDE7-E1AF10B2D6DD@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <493B29A5.9040909@HorneSystemsTx.com>

If it isn't too late, pull out the bottom row of tile and then find some 
accent tiles in a contrasting color that are about 1/2" high, and 
however wide they come. Install them, then put in the bottom row of 
tile. The space between the bottom row of tile and the tub should never 
be grouted, but caulked. Grout will crack out over time.

If you have already installed the bottom row of tile you can always 
break it out and replace them.

Good luck.
Pat

Thusly spake Jim Franklin:
> I cut the bottom course of tiles too short and now have a 3/4" gap 
> between them and the tub. The backerboard is also trimmed a bit high 
> so I can't cement thin slices of tile in there. I think it would look 
> hideous with the gap filled with caulk, even if it was applied neatly. 
> Anything to remedy this? I suppose I could lay down a spacer, then 
> fill the gap with mortar all the way to the tub flange and put thin 
> tile slices into that, then caulk the smaller gap where the spacer 
> was, but mentally I was done with the mortar and don't really want to 
> start that up again. Plus it would announce the screw-up moreso than 
> caulk :-)
>
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1808 - Release Date: 11/23/2008 6:59 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Dec  7 05:03:43 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 06:03:43 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding a cracked fan Blade
References: <C55FFBFD.6937%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <695AB4276A87499C9CBB53AB461B1352@KARL>

Those original Model A fans, made of welded, stamped steel to produce a 
full-dimension propeller, were notorious for cracking when I had my Model A 
40 years ago.  They'd develop a crack right across the blade near the hub, 
and would run for quite a while with the crack seemingly stable, then BANG !

At shows and parts swaps, you would almost always see a hood or two with the 
signature ding in it from a departing fan blade.  And you could often see 
cracked blades still in use.  I always figured the breakage was really more 
attributable to lack of inspection rather than sudden failure without 
warning.  Kind of amazing that there are still some left to break nowadays.

Imagine the outcry if there'd been investigative television shows and hordes 
of personal injury attorneys in the 30's.  Can't you just see Dan Blather, 
Charlie Gibson, and Katie Couric grilling old Henry Ford, accusing him of 
the willful slaughter of his customers ??

Karl



> The two blade fan on my Model A broke and put a mighty dent in the hood 
> and
> bent it out of shape. I've heard people have been killed revving up the
> engine when these fans break. Easy to believe from what I saw. I'd like to
> keep the A original, but I like living better, so I replaced it with a
> modern 4 blade that looks like crossed stampings. The two blade is an odd
> construction. Hard to describe, but it does appear to be seam welded and
> ground smooth.
> Brian

From dgcole01 at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec  8 13:13:07 2008
From: dgcole01 at bellsouth.net (David Cole)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:13:07 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] testing cooktop switch?
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.1.20081208140046.01dd2ca8@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net>

I have a Kenmore 36" glass cooktop with 5 radiant elements.  Model # 4274
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02242749000P?vName=Appliances&cName=Cooktops+%26+Ovens&sName=Cooktops

The most powerful burner element (9" 3500W)  has stopped working.  I 
am 95% sure the rotary switch is the problem.  The burner would work 
with the switch in some postions, but not others.  IE: turn it on, 
doesn't work, move the knob slightly and it would work.  Over a 
period of about a month the distance that was required on moving  the 
knob got larger.  Finally, it doesn't work at all.   The cooktop is 
just under 3 years old.

My parts sheet lists the switch as part # 318120505.  A google search 
comes back as this being a Frigidaire part #.   This switch has a 
different part # than the other switches on the unit due to it 
controlling a more powerful element.

The switch is not cheap.  Is there a way to test the old switch with 
an ohm meter or something to make certain this is the problem before 
I buy the new switch.

Thanks,
David Cole

note: I knoo this is a cooktop, but the question does involve tools, 
testing, etc. 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Dec  8 14:35:50 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:35:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] testing cooktop switch?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.1.20081208140046.01dd2ca8@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net>
References: <6.2.3.4.1.20081208140046.01dd2ca8@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <056c01c9597c$f13d8f50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> The switch is not cheap.  Is there a way to test the old switch with
> an ohm meter or something to make certain this is the problem before
> I buy the new switch.

Can you access the connections between the switch and the element?  Easiest
test would be to check the voltage applied to the element.

Of course you could try using an ohmmeter to check continuity through the
switch, but because of the very low resistance required that method might
give you false results.

If the 'special' switch is particularly expensive, I might be tempted to
insert a relay.  I recently bought one rated more than you need, for under
$25 (including shipping) on flea-bay.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 20:29:11 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:29:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] testing cooktop switch?
In-Reply-To: <056c01c9597c$f13d8f50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.1.20081208140046.01dd2ca8@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net>
	<056c01c9597c$f13d8f50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812081929u3c70f3fcw717c35a8bfa19eaa@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> The switch is not cheap.  Is there a way to test the old switch with
>> an ohm meter or something to make certain this is the problem before
>> I buy the new switch.
>
> Can you access the connections between the switch and the element?  Easiest
> test would be to check the voltage applied to the element.
>
> Of course you could try using an ohmmeter to check continuity through the
> switch, but because of the very low resistance required that method might
> give you false results.
>
> If the 'special' switch is particularly expensive, I might be tempted to
> insert a relay.  I recently bought one rated more than you need, for under
> $25 (including shipping) on flea-bay.

That won't work.  This is an electric range, so the switch isn't just
a switch, it's also a controller of some sort.  Depending on the
range, it's either a multi-pole switch, or a dimmer type switch, or a
switch with a heater in it (that acts as a timer on the burner's duty
cycle.  Yeah.  That's nuts.  It's very common.), or a switch that
controls a thermostat at the burner.  Or maybe something else
entirely.  Each of those has a different trouble shooting technique,
but my first shot at fixing would be to take it apart and see if
there's something that can be cleaned or adjusted.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Dec  8 22:28:00 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:28:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] testing cooktop switch?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812081929u3c70f3fcw717c35a8bfa19eaa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.1.20081208140046.01dd2ca8@mail.bhm.bellsouth.net>
	<056c01c9597c$f13d8f50$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<2400a5d40812081929u3c70f3fcw717c35a8bfa19eaa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812090026560.6081@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, David Scheidt wrote:
> my first shot at fixing would be to take it apart and see if
> there's something that can be cleaned or adjusted.

On a three year old range, my first shot would involve calling the 
manufacturer and nasty letters to the editor and mean webpages if they 
didn't just make the problem go away.

Mark

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Tue Dec  9 07:39:25 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 06:39:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
Message-ID: <934661.33561.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

When metering a 110vac outlet I understand when you meter across the two spade
slots(on the receptacle it self) you should see around 115vac, but what are
acceptable voltages across the large slot and ground and across the small slot
and ground?
 
Thanks for the help. 


Frank V.
Loomis, Ca.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Dec  9 08:13:49 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:13:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
References: <934661.33561.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EA0DF7F251A46F4AE9E3FD7B2F4125F@KARL>

Small slot (hot) and ground should be the same as small slot (hot) to large 
slot (neutral).  Neutral to ground may show a couple of volts if there's a 
load on the line, higher depending on the amperage of that load and distance 
from the panel.  Even if there's no load, a small voltage is induced into 
the neutral, but it may not be detectable unless you have a sensitive 
digital voltmeter.  If there's a big voltage with no load, check that your 
neutral is indeed attached at the panel.

No doubt Randall will explain far more  ;-)

Karl




> When metering a 110vac outlet I understand when you meter across the two 
> spade
> slots(on the receptacle it self) you should see around 115vac, but what 
> are
> acceptable voltages across the large slot and ground and across the small 
> slot
> and ground?
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
>
> Frank V.
> Loomis, Ca.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 08:42:02 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 07:42:02 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <4EA0DF7F251A46F4AE9E3FD7B2F4125F@KARL>
Message-ID: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> No doubt Randall will explain far more  ;-)

Nope, nothing to add to that synopsis.  In fact I can never remember which
blade is which; have to look at my tester
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130274383796
to be sure.

Randall

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 10:09:54 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:09:54 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wire mesh for birdfeeder
Message-ID: <A4B72E55BE9D4AB9AADD3D05C8FDEFB4@Waynehouseputer>

We have a pretty active backyard bird population and feed them with two
feeders, one with straight black sunflower seeds, and one with mixed seed.

 

The feeder with mixed seed is a two sided affair with seed troughs and
perches that the birds line up on to pick the seed out of the trough. The
problem is there are some larger birds that like to sit right in the middle
of the perch and sweep their beak side to side, which flings all the seed
off onto the ground, much to the squirrels delight. While this may be good
for the squirrels it is not so good for our budget as we are going through
an alarming amount of mixed seed. So.

 

I'd like to tack some sort of wire mesh to this wood feeder over the trough
such that it would prevent the big birds from sweeping their beak but still
allow the little bird's access to the seed. The problem is coming up with
something that has a suitable mesh size. Typical chicken wire is too large,
and window screen is too small. There has to be something in between these
sizes that would be appropriate and that I could get from a home improvement
or farm store?

 

Thanks

Wayne 

From drew at DasRogges.com  Tue Dec  9 10:22:28 2008
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:22:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wire mesh for birdfeeder
In-Reply-To: <A4B72E55BE9D4AB9AADD3D05C8FDEFB4@Waynehouseputer>
References: <A4B72E55BE9D4AB9AADD3D05C8FDEFB4@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <493EA954.8020500@DasRogges.com>

There are all kinds of different wire meshes. Do a web search for "hardware
cloth" and you see a bunch of different sizes which should be available
at any reasonable hardware store.

Drew

cornerexit wrote:
[snip]
> I'd like to tack some sort of wire mesh to this wood feeder over the trough
> such that it would prevent the big birds from sweeping their beak but still
> allow the little bird's access to the seed. The problem is coming up with
> something that has a suitable mesh size. Typical chicken wire is too large,
> and window screen is too small. There has to be something in between these
> sizes that would be appropriate and that I could get from a home improvement
> or farm store?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wayne 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Dec  9 10:33:34 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:33:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>

Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the danger of 
little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is smaller and thus 
harder to stick something in and get a shock.

Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)




> In fact I can never remember which blade is which

> Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 10:37:21 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:37:21 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
Message-ID: <07a201c95a24$cabfa6d0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)

Works for me!

Thanks, Karl.
Randall

From nogera2 at att.net  Tue Dec  9 11:13:18 2008
From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:13:18 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote Control Relay
Message-ID: <66FE8947154C4B2F80A21F0289D2C624@Carroom>

I ran a second cable from the DVR in my home office to the guess bedroom
(where I like to nap) and hooked up a remote control relay which converts
the IR from the remote control to a radio signal which is sent to a recover
at the DVR and converts it back to a IR signal. It works so wonderfully that
my wife wanted me to do the same between the den DVR and the master bedroom
so she could watch her shows in either room. And now that's the problem.
Even though the two relays are different brands they are broadcasting on the
same frequency so if she uses the remote in the master bedroom the channel
changes in my home office.  What I need is to block the signal from her
transmitter to my receiver. We don't have the same problem with my
transmitter to her recover since it is further away. As luck would have it
the receivers  are in opposite ends of the house so if I could make the
receiver antennas directional it would solve the problem.
I tried aluminum foil and that didn't work. Any suggestions as to how to
make the antennas directional?

Bob Nogueira

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 11:33:36 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:33:36 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote Control Relay
In-Reply-To: <66FE8947154C4B2F80A21F0289D2C624@Carroom>
References: <66FE8947154C4B2F80A21F0289D2C624@Carroom>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0812091033l4d1e5461v70bf6b8f86b3e48b@mail.gmail.com>

Try copper mesh (think copper window screen material), and be sure to
ground it.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:13 PM,  <nogera2 at att.net> wrote:
> I ran a second cable from the DVR in my home office to the guess bedroom
> (where I like to nap) and hooked up a remote control relay which converts
> the IR from the remote control to a radio signal which is sent to a recover
> at the DVR and converts it back to a IR signal. It works so wonderfully that
> my wife wanted me to do the same between the den DVR and the master bedroom
> so she could watch her shows in either room. And now that's the problem.
> Even though the two relays are different brands they are broadcasting on the
> same frequency so if she uses the remote in the master bedroom the channel
> changes in my home office.  What I need is to block the signal from her
> transmitter to my receiver. We don't have the same problem with my
> transmitter to her recover since it is further away. As luck would have it
> the receivers  are in opposite ends of the house so if I could make the
> receiver antennas directional it would solve the problem.
> I tried aluminum foil and that didn't work. Any suggestions as to how to
> make the antennas directional?
>
> Bob Nogueira
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 12:03:13 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:03:13 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wire mesh for birdfeeder
In-Reply-To: <A4B72E55BE9D4AB9AADD3D05C8FDEFB4@Waynehouseputer>
References: <A4B72E55BE9D4AB9AADD3D05C8FDEFB4@Waynehouseputer>
Message-ID: <07c001c95a30$c9a12100$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> There has to be something in between these
> sizes that would be appropriate and that I could get from a home
> improvement or farm store?

Seems like 1/4" hardware cloth would be about right.  My Home Depot carries
it.

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Dec  9 13:10:18 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:10:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Karl Vacek wrote:
> Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the danger of 
> little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is smaller and 
> thus harder to stick something in and get a shock.

This reminds me...

I've seen plenty of stuff to block off access to an outlet to keep kids 
from sticking stuff in them.

However, the thing I'd like to have would be something to prevent a child 
from partially unpluging something that's already plugged in, then getting 
their fingers onto the hot.

Does something like that exist for common 110vac outlets?

Mark

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Dec  9 13:45:51 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:45:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <07a201c95a24$cabfa6d0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
	<07a201c95a24$cabfa6d0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <FA206FF5-1093-4465-9123-2CDD1E5A7F55@groupwbench.org>

On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Randall wrote:

>> Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)
>
> Works for me!
>

It didn't work for me, the wires to the train track were both small  
enough. :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Hubbell

jim, who flew across the room faster than the train from that trick

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 20:54:07 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:54:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20081210035407.FEGE29496.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> However, the thing I'd like to have would be something to 
> prevent a child from partially unpluging something that's 
> already plugged in, then getting their fingers onto the hot.
> 
> Does something like that exist for common 110vac outlets?

This is the only kind I know of that fits onto a standard outlet:
http://www.safety1st.com/product/detail.asp?ID=173

Randall

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Tue Dec  9 21:41:20 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:41:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
Message-ID: <390140.65898.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you for the feed back. I have 87vac on the small slot and 27vac on the
large slot. I bought a brand new circuit tester made by Sperry, it also
verifies GFI receptacles, it shows the receptacles are OK.
 
My original posting was a result of my new barn not passing the final
inspection due to an open ground.  I have since learned that two different
testers were faulty, my new tester proved everything is OK and my barn was
signed off. Yay!
 
Thanks again for the feedback!


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

From: Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>, "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 9:33 AM

Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the danger of
little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is smaller and thus
harder to stick something in and get a shock.

Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)




> In fact I can never remember which blade is which

> Randall
You are subscribed as rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Dec  9 21:51:21 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:51:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <390140.65898.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <273363.86939.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Those testers in a plug with three little lights do a rather primitive test that can easily be wrong.  They only indicate the no-load voltage difference between the different lines.  They do NOT check against a true ground, and they do NOT tell the difference between a "real" voltage on a properly connected line vs. a leakage (e.g. capacitively-coupled) voltage on an open line.

Somebody could hook the hot line to the ground and neutral terminal, and the neutral line to the hot terminal, and the tester would not show a problem.

Doug


--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Frank Vantacich <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> From: Frank Vantacich <rustymetal at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
> To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>, "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>, "Karl Vacek" <KVacek at Ameritech.net>
> Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 11:41 PM
> Thank you for the feed back. I have 87vac on the small slot
> and 27vac on the
> large slot. I bought a brand new circuit tester made by
> Sperry, it also
> verifies GFI receptacles, it shows the receptacles are OK.
>  
> My original posting was a result of my new barn not passing
> the final
> inspection due to an open ground.  I have since learned
> that two different
> testers were faulty, my new tester proved everything is OK
> and my barn was
> signed off. Yay!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 22:39:34 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:39:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <273363.86939.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081210053935.FUGB28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Somebody could hook the hot line to the ground and neutral 
> terminal, and the neutral line to the hot terminal, and the 
> tester would not show a problem.

I agree, not a total test.  But what do you figure at the chances of someone
accidentally connecting one wire to two terminals, and another wire to
nothing at all ? 

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 22:43:14 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:43:14 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <390140.65898.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081210054314.FVJZ28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Thank you for the feed back. I have 87vac on the small slot 
> and 27vac on the large slot.

Hate to say it Frank, but IMO that still indicates a problem.  The allowable
voltage between neutral and ground is only a few volts (even 3 is suspect in
my book, although I don't recall offhand what the NEC says).  Remember these
wires are supposed to be tied together at the main entrance; so if you don't
have an open ground, you have a 27 volt drop in the neutral line, which is
way, way too much.

Randall

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 23:30:42 2008
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:30:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081210012834.03b80a08@yahoo.com>

I use mnemonics and acronyms for everything I can.

the word "hot" is _smaller_ than the word "neutral"

port is alphabetically before starboard, like left is before right

ROYGBIV for the rainbow colors.

FOIL for alegebraic expansions

SOH CAH TOA for trig

etc...


At 12/9/2008 at 12:33, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Karl Vacek's 
keyboard and said:
>Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the 
>danger of little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is 
>smaller and thus harder to stick something in and get a shock.
>
>Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)
>
>
>>In fact I can never remember which blade is which


Cheers!

From ronglue at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 06:41:44 2008
From: ronglue at yahoo.com (Ron Horwitz)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 05:41:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <887.81364.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> However, the thing I'd like to have would be something
> to prevent a child from partially unpluging something
> that's already plugged in, then getting their fingers
> onto the hot.
> 
> Does something like that exist for common 110vac outlets?
> 

I don't know, but it didn't exist in about, oh, 1971-72 when I did this.  I still remember the hot tingly feeling.  Unplugging a lamp that was behind a nightstand, pulled the plug partially out, leaned to get my then short arm a better reach, and still remember it to this day.....

Ron

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Dec 10 07:10:57 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:10:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
References: <390140.65898.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A36F1D80DE724058934C6302472C30A0@KARL>

As Randall said, this is not good.  Maybe the NEW tester is the faulty item.
Did the inspector rely on your new tester or did he use a meter to verify that
all is now well ?

If you mean 27 and 87 volts to ground, you do indeed have a floating ground.
Add 27 and 87 and what do you get ?  114 volts total difference between hot
and neutral, meaning that the ground is partway between them.  Should be about
115 hot to ground, and close to zero neutral to ground.

And while I know that some places do not bond neutral, in most localities with
which I'm familiar, neutral in the main panel is "bonded" (connected) to
ground.  In fact most breaker panels include jumpers to do this bonding (you
just don't install the jumper for non-bonded applications).  If your barn
panel is a subpanel off a main somewhere else, the specific situation will
determine whether or not you should bond the neutral to ground in that panel.

Even though you're signed off, PLEASE check this out for your own safety.

As Doug said, those testers are a crude measure.  Use a decent digital
voltmeter - but even a crappy Horrible Freight $2.99 model will be better than
a neon light.

Once again - if neutral isn't bonded, maybe a few volts from neutral to ground
but NOT 27 volts.  Should be close to 115 volts from hot to neutral and also
from hot to ground.

Be safe !
Karl





        Thank you for the feed back. I have 87vac on the small slot and 27vac
on the large slot. I bought a brand new circuit tester made by Sperry, it also
verifies GFI receptacles, it shows the receptacles are OK.

        My original posting was a result of my new barn not passing the final
inspection due to an open ground.  I have since learned that two different
testers were faulty, my new tester proved everything is OK and my barn was
signed off. Yay!

        Thanks again for the feedback!


        Frank V.
        rustymetal at sbcglobal.net


        --- On Tue, 12/9/08, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

          From: Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net>
          Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
          To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>, "'Shop Talk'"
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
          Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 9:33 AM


Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the danger of
little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is smaller and thus
harder to stick something in and get a shock.

Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)




> In fact I can never remember which blade is which

> Randall
You are subscribed as rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Dec 10 07:17:25 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:17:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c95ad2$070945d0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> However, the thing I'd like to have would be something to prevent a child 
> from partially unpluging something that's already plugged in, then getting 
> their fingers onto the hot.

Only for children?  As many times as I've managed to do that to myself, I 
wouldn't mind it for grownups either. :-)

Seriously, you could trim the plug end so that it's barely making contact 
when fully seated, and breaks contact with the slightest extraction. 

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 07:25:51 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <001b01c95ad2$070945d0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<001b01c95ad2$070945d0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <bdde53220812100625h22f855b6tbb4bb09e9f41b656@mail.gmail.com>

Then if the plug is not quite seated you've just made an improvised arc
welder in your outlet...

-Paul
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Nolan <opposumking at verizon.net> wrote:

>  However, the thing I'd like to have would be something to prevent a child
>> from partially unpluging something that's already plugged in, then getting
>> their fingers onto the hot.
>>
>
> Only for children?  As many times as I've managed to do that to myself, I
> wouldn't mind it for grownups either. :-)
>
> Seriously, you could trim the plug end so that it's barely making contact
> when fully seated, and breaks contact with the slightest extraction.
> _______________________________________________

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Dec 10 07:49:20 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:49:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<001b01c95ad2$070945d0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<bdde53220812100625h22f855b6tbb4bb09e9f41b656@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c95ad6$7c720c40$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

You've always got that risk with any plug partially pulled out.  Same with
many light switches, especially if you throw them slowly.  The plug would also
be extremely annoying in that it would fall out quite easily.

Another idea just occurred to me, and that's to paint the bottom half of the
plugs connectors with liquid electrical tape.


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Paul Parkanzky
  To: Nolan
  Cc: Shop Talk
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)


  Then if the plug is not quite seated you've just made an improvised arc
welder in your outlet...

  -Paul

  On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Nolan <opposumking at verizon.net> wrote:

      However, the thing I'd like to have would be something to prevent a
child from partially unpluging something that's already plugged in, then
getting their fingers onto the hot.



    Only for children?  As many times as I've managed to do that to myself, I
wouldn't mind it for grownups either. :-)

    Seriously, you could trim the plug end so that it's barely making contact
when fully seated, and breaks contact with the slightest extraction.
_______________________________________________

From scottmryan at netzero.net  Wed Dec 10 07:59:38 2008
From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan at netzero.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:59:38 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
Message-ID: <20081210.085938.20883.1@webmail18.dca.untd.com>

I think my webmail does funny things with replies:Europe 220vac plugs (and
british plugs too, I think) have plastic on the first 3/8" or so, you can't
get shocked by partly pulling it out (or dropping a paper clip onto the
exposed plug, like I did when I was small-oops!)Scott R > However, the thing
I'd like to have would be something to prevent a child > from partially
unpluging something that's already plugged in, then getting > their fingers
onto the hot.Only for children?  As many times as I've managed to do that to
myself, I wouldn't mind it for grownups either. :-)Seriously, you could trim
the plug end so that it's barely making contact when fully seated, and breaks
contact with the slightest extraction.
____________________________________________________________
Fast Domain Registration. Click here
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6rx9Sm0HMRI0uk1m9QS53ORtmea
atgGXq8HZWFtjGNQ1kHYvSu/

From nick at landform.co.uk  Wed Dec 10 10:02:09 2008
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:02:09 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <20081210.085938.20883.1@webmail18.dca.untd.com>
References: <20081210.085938.20883.1@webmail18.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <493FF611.50902@landform.co.uk>

scottmryan at netzero.net wrote:
> I think my webmail does funny things with replies:Europe 220vac plugs (and
> british plugs too, I think) have plastic on the first 3/8" or so, you can't
> get shocked by partly pulling it out (or dropping a paper clip onto the
> exposed plug, like I did when I was small-oops!)Scott R 
In UK there are plugs as at  
*http://www.powerconnections.co.uk/rewireables_uk.htm

*In the pictures the live and neutral are the lower two pins. The 
sleeving can be seen extending along the pin for the first 9mm. It 
works, by the time the exposed part of the pin makes it out to the open 
it is disconnected from the supply. Whether it would work on the thinner 
US pins I don't know.

Nick Brearley

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Dec 10 10:26:44 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:26:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <887.81364.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<887.81364.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <09c101c95aec$79b86880$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Unplugging a lamp that was
> behind a nightstand, pulled the plug partially out, leaned to get my then
> short arm a better reach, and still remember it to this day.....

Meaning you learned a very valuable lesson, with minimal damage.

Maybe we're emphasizing the wrong thing here ... ?

Randall

From nick at landform.co.uk  Wed Dec 10 10:35:39 2008
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:35:39 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <493FF611.50902@landform.co.uk>
References: <20081210.085938.20883.1@webmail18.dca.untd.com>
	<493FF611.50902@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <493FFDEB.1040802@landform.co.uk>

nick brearley wrote:
>
> *In the pictures the live and neutral are the lower two pins. The 
> sleeving can be seen extending along the pin for the first 9mm. It 
> works, by the time the exposed part of the pin makes it out to the 
> open it is disconnected from the supply. Whether it would work on the 
> thinner US pins I don't know.

One possibility would be to use UK 3 flat pin sockets in child 
vulnerable situations and feed them with these:

http://www.powerconnections.co.uk/convert_usjapanchina.htm

What the US inspectors might think could be another matter altogether...

Nick Brearley

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 12:38:10 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:38:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<887.81364.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<09c101c95aec$79b86880$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <500707.50852.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

(Chuckle) I was wondering the same thing. I learned about
electricity at a very young age, and not to mess with an
AC outlet. It only occured once. 

I'll admit that years later, I melted an screwdriver when 
discharging  the 9inch CRT in my old Heathkit luggagle. The 
bang or snap when it discharged brought back memories of 
my childhood when I taught myself a valuable lesson. <bg>

Experience is a wonderful teacher I think. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


----- Original Message ----
From: Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:26:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)

> Unplugging a lamp that was
> behind a nightstand, pulled the plug partially out, leaned to get my then
> short arm a better reach, and still remember it to this day.....

Meaning you learned a very valuable lesson, with minimal damage.

Maybe we're emphasizing the wrong thing here ... ?
(snip)

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Dec 10 17:20:21 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:20:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <09c101c95aec$79b86880$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<887.81364.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<09c101c95aec$79b86880$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812101919240.17783@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Randall wrote:
>> Unplugging a lamp that was
>> behind a nightstand, pulled the plug partially out, leaned to get my then
>> short arm a better reach, and still remember it to this day.....
>
> Meaning you learned a very valuable lesson, with minimal damage.
>
> Maybe we're emphasizing the wrong thing here ... ?

I'm fine with him getting a tingle, I'm not fine with him getting 
seriously injured or killed.

Will 110vac kill a young (~2 years old) child?

Mark

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Dec 10 17:30:32 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:30:32 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
Message-ID: <121120080030.3334.49405F28000545D100000D0622165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

> Will 110vac kill a young (~2 years old) child?
> 
> Mark

110vac can kill YOU.


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 17:37:23 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:37:23 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812101919240.17783@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<887.81364.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<09c101c95aec$79b86880$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812101919240.17783@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360812101637i22978021p898bde4d3a181b02@mail.gmail.com>

*On subject:*
**
*Last week, I was using my "gee-whiz" leaf blower/vacuum combination and it
slowed and stopped . . when I looked, the electrical connection was on fire
with serious smoke and stuff and both the male prongs on the blower and the
female receptacle on a 100 foot HD extension card were toast . .  I'll go in
and install a good male plug on the blower and a new female end on the cord
but it is a damned shame that a positive connector wasn't standard equipment
. . *

*Rant over . . *

*Tony*

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Dec 10 19:03:42 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:03:42 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812101919240.17783@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812091507580.24322@thunder.banklogic.net><887.81364.qm@web36305.mail.mud.yahoo.com><09c101c95aec$79b86880$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812101919240.17783@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <009f01c95b34$b279bf00$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Will 110vac kill a young (~2 years old) child?

It can be done, certainly.  But it's very unlikely.  For example, grabbing
both pins with the same hand wouldn't do it; although if his hands were wet
it might give him a significant burn.  To even have a chance of killing him,
he would have to have one hand on the pin and the other hand on a good
ground.  Even that likely wouldn't do it, unless he also had open sores on
both hands, where they were touching the conductors.  Your skin actually
does an amazing job of (relatively) harmlessly deflecting low frequency AC.

Child electrocution is so rare in the US that the authorities don't even
keep statistics on it, lumping it into the 'other' category.  According to 
http://www.childdeathreview.org/causesOA.htm
only 238 kids (0-18) died of "other" during 2000, and both poisoning and
falls are more common causes (of "other") than electrocution.

Then you have to subdivide those few deaths (if any) into bathroom
accidents, defective appliances, and being in the wrong place (eg high
voltage transformer vaults).

A quick Google doesn't turn up ANY cases where someone was electrocuted by
touching the pins ... by contrast there were 11 people 19 or under killed by
lightning in the USA in the year 2000.
http://tinyurl.com/5hc4x9

Randall

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 10 19:31:31 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:31:31 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
In-Reply-To: <121120080030.3334.49405F28000545D100000D0622165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <121120080030.3334.49405F28000545D100000D0622165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W4193F0D8030CABB51A674E1F80@phx.gbl>

9v applied under the skin between the ears can kill you.

Skin is not a good conductor, thus most people are not hurt with dry cell
batteriesRich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap
pile, that is my car! See it moves!> From: pethier at comcast.net> To:
mark at sccaprepared.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008
00:30:32 +0000> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac
outlet question)> > > Will 110vac kill a young (~2 years old) child?> > > >
Mark> > 110vac can kill YOU.> > > --> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul
Minnesota USA> 62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94
Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7> pethier [at] comcast [dot] net
http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as
rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk> >
http://www.team.net/archive

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Dec 11 03:32:54 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 05:32:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
References: <121120080030.3334.49405F28000545D100000D0622165579969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<BAY123-W4193F0D8030CABB51A674E1F80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001401c95b7b$d3e64b80$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> 9v applied under the skin between the ears can kill you.

Yet people lick 9 volt batteries all the time to see how good their charge 
is, and manage not to die.

From scottmryan at netzero.net  Thu Dec 11 08:02:55 2008
From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan at netzero.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:02:55 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid safety & outlets (was: 110vac outlet question)
Message-ID: <20081211.090255.12255.1@webmail02.dca.untd.com>

>> 9v applied under the skin between the ears can kill you.

>Yet people lick 9 volt batteries all the time to see how good their charge
>is, and manage not to die.

I test 9V batteries this way all the time (probably a few thousand in my
lifetime so far). I am sure it would have to be 9v under the skin on both
sides of yur brain, with fairly good sized plates to allow enough current to
flow to disrupt your brain.

It is dangerous to have wet or damp hands if you happen to touch 120v or 240v
conductors; but if the current does not flow through your chest (screws up
your heart/pacemaker), or through your brain (ouch), it's unlikely to kill
you. I remembered two more things from early adulthood: touched a 10,000v @
.02a secondary (oil furnace ignition transformer) the hammer in my hand went
through the wall behind me from my arm jerking backwards. luckily it didn't go
through my face, and no one was behind me. I also had my glasses touch a light
tree (roadie for a rock band) that had a defective plug that made the entire
light tree 120v, I was also touching a grounded audio cord, and I was
sweating. I saw a big white flash and ended up flat on my back. either of
these could have killed me if the current path had been through my chest, and
not arm to knee, or head/shoulder to hand. I am really careful these days!
Scott R

____________________________________________________________
Lose up to 20 lbs in one month with a new diet. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6rx8hZzpoWS18Sq2jXN25vSm4Yu
X9lVUIg4aDrHdIJyToeEDVU/

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 11 08:35:46 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:35:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
Message-ID: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL>

There's an article in the latest Popular Mechanics about networkable house
wiring - switches and receptacles that have network addresses and communicate
either through the house wiring or through RF.

I've long heard about the X10 stuff, but this sounds more useful.  I don't
care about making the coffee pot come on via the Internet while I'm 3
countries away - but adding additional 2-way switches and switched receptacles
without stuffing more wires into full conduits - that's great !!

Has anyone here used any of these devices ?  Can you comment on reliability
and ease of use ?  I don't something that will leave us in the dark till I
replace it, or worse, baffle my wife.  Any brand recommendations ?

Thanks!
Karl



Life is like a jar of jalapenos --
  What you do today might
   burn your butt tomorrow !!

From eabb at loc.gov  Thu Dec 11 08:44:34 2008
From: eabb at loc.gov (Eugene D Abbondelo)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:44:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
Message-ID: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>

I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories made
by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If so,
any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons?  Thanks,
Gene

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Dec 11 08:52:31 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:52:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
In-Reply-To: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <4941373F.1050706@xxiii.com>

Eugene D Abbondelo wrote:
> I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories made
> by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If so,
> any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons?  Thanks,

I have a Dremel I bought 10 or 15 years ago.  Would have been great when 
I was a kid playing with tiny models and hobby crap.  As a "grown up" 
tool, it has pretty limited usefulness.  It's too small and slow for 
most things I thought it would work on.  And the Dremel-brand bits are 
crazy expensive (Harbor Freight versions soften some of the cost impact.)

The thing the Dremel did best was convince me I needed compressed air 
and a real die grinder.

   -Wayne

From gpd4 at juno.com  Thu Dec 11 08:58:47 2008
From: gpd4 at juno.com (George P Dausch IV)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:58:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
Message-ID: <20081211.105847.4648.7.gpd4@juno.com>

I agree with most of what you wrote, however:
I bought the heavy duty battery powered unit three years ago, and it is
incredibly useful for those quick projects and the fine work.  I also buy
the heavy duty cut-off wheels by the dozen because when doing that type
of work the diameter and speed is such that you can get in tight corners
and make quick work of anything up to about 1/4" thick that you would
normally be fighting with a hack saw.
Just my thoughts.
GPD4

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:52:31 -0500 Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> writes:
> Eugene D Abbondelo wrote:
> > I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with 
> accessories made
> > by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them 
> useful?  If so,
> > any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons? 
>  Thanks,
> 
> I have a Dremel I bought 10 or 15 years ago.  Would have been great 
> when 
> I was a kid playing with tiny models and hobby crap.  As a "grown 
> up" 
> tool, it has pretty limited usefulness.  It's too small and slow for 
> 
> most things I thought it would work on.  And the Dremel-brand bits 
> are 
> crazy expensive (Harbor Freight versions soften some of the cost 
> impact.)
> 
> The thing the Dremel did best was convince me I needed compressed 
> air 
> and a real die grinder.
> 
>    -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as gpd4 at juno.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive
> 
> 
 

____________________________________________________________
Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1141/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007

From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Dec 11 09:02:43 2008
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:02:43 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
Message-ID: <121120081602.15175.494139A300042E6D00003B47220700295304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net>

They're fine for small jobs or when you don't want to fire up the compressor.

Get one with variable speed control ... mine has an LCD readout of RPM and though I usually run it flat out (20K RPM), I think slower could come in handy sometimes.


bs


--
***************************************************************
Bob Spidell         San Jose, CA        bspidell at comcast.net
'67 Austin-Healey 3000             '56 Austin-Healey 100M
***************************************************************

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
> Eugene D Abbondelo wrote:
> > I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories made
> > by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If so,
> > any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons?  Thanks,
> 
> I have a Dremel I bought 10 or 15 years ago.  Would have been great when 
> I was a kid playing with tiny models and hobby crap.  As a "grown up" 
> tool, it has pretty limited usefulness.  It's too small and slow for 
> most things I thought it would work on.  And the Dremel-brand bits are 
> crazy expensive (Harbor Freight versions soften some of the cost impact.)
> 
> The thing the Dremel did best was convince me I needed compressed air 
> and a real die grinder.
> 
>    -Wayne

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 09:16:01 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:16:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
In-Reply-To: <4941373F.1050706@xxiii.com>
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
	<4941373F.1050706@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <1D86501FB0A240A3A30C996BB537AF8C@OwnerPC>

I'm like Wayne... find very limited usefulness for the Dremel...  it did a 
good job of cutting off my wedding ring when I nearly crushed my ring 
finger... didn't know how hot gold got when you use a cutoff tool on 
it...!!!

my work/play is usually larger and I used flap disk and carbide burrs in an 
air grinder...  it's strickly a hobby tool for light weight hobbies... model 
building, carving knife handles, jewelery making...

mine is hanging on the wall with 1/8" of grinder dust on it...

John 

From drew at DasRogges.com  Thu Dec 11 09:35:42 2008
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:35:42 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
In-Reply-To: <1D86501FB0A240A3A30C996BB537AF8C@OwnerPC>
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
	<4941373F.1050706@xxiii.com>
	<1D86501FB0A240A3A30C996BB537AF8C@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4941415E.2010201@DasRogges.com>

I too think that a dremel is a bit on the light side and use my air die
grinder for most stuff in the shop. However there are grinders that are
sized midway between a dremel and a die grinder. One of the more popular
ones is by a company named Froedom. Here's are some examples:

<http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=foredom+tools&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=2352163165&ref=pd_sl_3zqs4dugsr_b>

Or just search for Foredom tools on Amazon.com

Other people, including dremel and Horrible Freight, make/sell similar
grinders.

Drew

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 09:57:00 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:57:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 2, Issue 364
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4710.1229011242.3542.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.4710.1229011242.3542.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <4382458b0812110857p73ad4743ga6dfd6e29b500d1@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories made
> by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If so,
> any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons?  Thanks,
> Gene

I use my 30 year old Dremel about once a week.  I have a full machine
shop and all the power and hand tools I've ever wanted, but some
things require a Dremel. Best example offhand is cutting screw slots
when the original has become useless.  You can get the milling machine
up under the dash to get that stubborn screw out.  Also polishing
small items, like pistol parts.  And I widh I'd had one when I was
building those muzzleloader kits years ago.  They would be great for
inletting wood stocks to fit metal parts.
   Same goes for the air-driven mini-die grinders. I haven't bought
one, but I ought to.
   As someone else said, Dremel bits are too expensive. I buy the HF
or Kawasaki brand bit sets for under $20 and I'm good for a year or
two. Only the reinforced cutoff wheels do I buy from Dremel, because I
use those a lot.

Rex B

From trevor at boicey.com  Thu Dec 11 10:52:34 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:52:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
In-Reply-To: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL>
References: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL>
Message-ID: <49415362.5080102@boicey.com>

Karl Vacek wrote:
> I've long heard about the X10 stuff, but this sounds more useful.  I don't
> care about making the coffee pot come on via the Internet while I'm 3
> countries away - but adding additional 2-way switches and switched receptacles
> without stuffing more wires into full conduits - that's great !!
> 
> Has anyone here used any of these devices ?  Can you comment on reliability
> and ease of use ?  I don't something that will leave us in the dark till I
> replace it, or worse, baffle my wife.  Any brand recommendations ?

   I have done a lot of X10 stuff in my house. I wouldn't use it to run 
a pacemaker, but it's generally suitable for most jobs like having the 
front lights on and off, shutting the hot tub off at night to save 
electricity, etc.

   If you want more switches with no wiring, stuff like this is pretty cool:

http://www.x10.com/automation/x10_ss13a.htm

   It looks like a wired-in wall switch, but it's really just stuck on 
the wall, put it anywhere.

   Then all you need to make it work is to replace the "other" switch 
with a real X10 switch, and somewhere in your house hide the wireless 
receiver by plugging it into an outlet somewhere out of view.

   X10 stuff is usually cheap on ebay, especially the starter kits that 
include a handful of these things.

   You can do switched receptacles as well. If you don't care if an 
external box is visible, they are cheap and simple, but you can also get 
ones that wire into the box for a hidden look and a bit more $$$.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 10:56:18 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:56:18 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
In-Reply-To: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <017601c95bb9$c583db00$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories
> made
> by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If
> so,
> any recommendations on particular models to look at?

I've owned a fixed speed Dremel for over 30 years.  As noted, it's pretty
small, which is both its strength and it's biggest limitation.  In spite of
having several larger tools, I still use the Dremel fairly often.  Had it
out just a few days ago, cutting a slot into a broken screw inside a
steering wheel hub.

At various times, I've tried making it both reversible and variable speed.
IMO neither one is worth bothering with.  That tiny motor just doesn't have
much torque, so if you try to slow it down the available power seems to drop
to almost nothing.  OTOH it's possible the newer ones work better than my
antique one does.

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 11 11:06:41 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <654DDACF6E5C4719BC6009C70942630F@KARL>

Calling a Dremel tool a die grinder is a stretch, but if you really want 
one - Amazon just sent a notice of a sale that seems to have lots of Dremel 
stuff in it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/r.html?R=2R4JMEIZ3Q26C&C=2BCRKAHWJT362&H=LNwBrna1hUhR3k7ABZvTZUKnvv4A&T=C&U=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%2Fnode%3D228013%26hidden-keywords%3DB001A4CWHO%7CB0000C6DZ6%7CB0009VD03Y%7CB00068P48O%7CB0018MRUN4%7CB000H12DQ6%7CB0000302Y9%7CB000LWKRH8%2Fref%3Dpe_25960_10670100_fe_txt_1%2F




> I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories 
> made
> by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If 
> so,
> any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons? 
> Thanks,
> Gene
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Dec 11 11:23:51 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:23:51 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
Message-ID: <121120081823.23004.49415AB7000C631B000059DC22155538949D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Eugene D Abbondelo" <eabb at loc.gov>
> I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories made
> by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If so,
> any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons?  Thanks,
> Gene

I have a corded Ryobi unit. I have used it to slit bolts and the like in confined areas on cars.  I use the discs most of all.  I once cut a u-joint cross on a Europa.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 11 11:45:20 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:45:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
References: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL>
	<49415362.5080102@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <31C1A4C7F1544967A41E30D9F3860069@KARL>

These devices are wired in - no batteries.

You replace a switch and a receptacle, for instance, even on different 
circuits.  Then you program them together, and the switch controls the 
receptacle.  Lots of programming options, one switch can control different 
receptacles in varying patterns depending on which button you press.  You 
can also set up lots of switches to control one or several receptacles, and 
dimming is included too.  Lots more options than my current imagination has 
covered - I just need it for a few specific areas - but once I start messing 
with it I suppose I'll become an enthusiast and have stuff flashing and 
dimming all over the place.

The article did mention that one of the makers of these devices is the 
company that makes the X-10 line, but the article made it sound like X-10 
was gone.  Googling I noted that several other companies not mentioned in 
the article that make these switches and receptacles as well, including 
Leviton.

Karl



>> I've long heard about the X10 stuff, but this sounds more useful.  I 
>> don't
>> care about making the coffee pot come on via the Internet while I'm 3
>> countries away - but adding additional 2-way switches and switched 
>> receptacles
>> without stuffing more wires into full conduits - that's great !!

>   If you want more switches with no wiring, stuff like this is pretty 
> cool:
>
> http://www.x10.com/automation/x10_ss13a.htm
>
>   It looks like a wired-in wall switch, but it's really just stuck on the 
> wall, put it anywhe 

From rbeels at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 09:55:47 2008
From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:55:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
In-Reply-To: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081211115238.03c74bc8@yahoo.com>

They're useful for what they do.  I have a B&D version - bigger 
motor.  Not as big as the Foredom but not as expensive either.  Don't 
kid yourself and try to exceed its capabilities, you'll frustrate the 
hell out of yourself.  But if you want/need something for the smaller 
stuff, they're a great tool.

Variable speed & hand/screw-tightening of the collet are the 2 most 
important "features", IMO.  Cordless is a waste because the weight of 
the battery throws off the handling of the tool.



At 12/11/2008 at 10:44, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Eugene D 
Abbondelo's keyboard and said:
>I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories made
>by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If so,
>any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons?  Thanks,
>Gene


Cheers!

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Dec 11 12:17:42 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:17:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <001c01c95bc5$24809020$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

I have one, in fact it's my second.  I burned the first one up.  I've found 
it very usefull over the years, but you do need to recognize that it's a 
light weight little tool.  Absolutely wonderfully handy for splitting frozen 
sleeves, reslotting a boogered screw head, trimming the edge of a plastic 
part, cutting a cable, etc.  Not so good when trying to port an engine or 
cutting a door hinge off or such larger jobs.

The worse part about a dremel tool is the tool bits.  The oem factory pieces 
are expensive and just don't work all that well.  The cutoff wheels snap if 
you sneeze near them, the stones last just a few seconds in use, the cutters 
are soft and rather dull, etc.  The only tool pieces I've found to be good 
are the sanding drums and cones, and the saw blade.  Buying aftermarket 
cutoff wheels and cutters really made the tool work for me.

From jszwed at energykinetics.com  Thu Dec 11 14:18:16 2008
From: jszwed at energykinetics.com (Joe Szwed)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:18:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
Message-ID: <8B7866794974450B85CC9884D3475071@EnergyKinetics.EKnet>

When I worked in a machine shop, air grinders were just referred to as "air
grinders" either straight or right angle.
If someone said "die grinder", this is what they meant.

http://www.dumore.com


Joe

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Thu Dec 11 14:41:42 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:41:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
	<001c01c95bc5$24809020$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976387B6@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Dremels...

I had one I used for years and finally burnt out the motor controller on it.
The replacement lasted about a year, and had water drip on it while I was
using it.  That one was instantly toast.  The one I have now is a "Craftsman"
branded "Dremel" - it came in a nice case with lots of storage for the bits,
and the sale price was good.

I find the "Dremel" to be very useful and use it all the time.  I also have
die grinders, cutoff tools, etc. and they all have their time and place.

However, I also bought an air powered "Dremel" from Harbor Freight when it was
on sale for around $15.  It is very handy.  No worries about it getting wet
and frying.  It doesn't get hot if it's used for a long time (it actually gets
cooler the more you use it).  Not as much power as a regular Dremel, but it's
very light and handy.  It even has variable speed.  Highly recommended.

Tim Mullen

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Dec 11 14:46:36 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:46:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
In-Reply-To: <31C1A4C7F1544967A41E30D9F3860069@KARL>
References: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL>
	<49415362.5080102@boicey.com> <31C1A4C7F1544967A41E30D9F3860069@KARL>
Message-ID: <0KBQ00254F8C1U60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Check out www.smarthome.com.  You'll see quite a selection of devices 
and technologies.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 11 15:08:33 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:08:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
References: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL><49415362.5080102@boicey.com>
	<31C1A4C7F1544967A41E30D9F3860069@KARL>
	<0KBQ00254F8C1U60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <688FBF1E84CD4A7F908AE717C40B414C@KARL>

Thanks Steve !
Lots more info than the little Popular Mechanics article.

Soooo... anyone here have any experience with this stuff ?  Is it really 
reliable or just a toy ??

Karl


> Check out www.smarthome.com.  You'll see quite a selection of devices and 
> technologies.
>
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net 

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Thu Dec 11 17:00:41 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:00:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20081211115238.03c74bc8@yahoo.com>
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
	<6.2.5.6.2.20081211115238.03c74bc8@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL110-W4B31B107A294B814AB20CCCF90@phx.gbl>

Most everything I could say about my Dremel (15 years old, variable speed, and
one of the handiest tools I own) has already been said, with one exception: I
have found the optional flexible shaft to be incredibly useful.  It allows me
to get into even tighter spaces and makes the tool even more useful.  In fact,
the chuck on my Dremel broke a few months ago and I just keep the flex shaft
on it permanently now.

Jim

> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:55:47 -0500
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> From: rbeels at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
>
> They're useful for what they do.  I have a B&D version - bigger
> motor.  Not as big as the Foredom but not as expensive either.  Don't
> kid yourself and try to exceed its capabilities, you'll frustrate the
> hell out of yourself.  But if you want/need something for the smaller
> stuff, they're a great tool.
>
> Variable speed & hand/screw-tightening of the collet are the 2 most
> important "features", IMO.  Cordless is a waste because the weight of
> the battery throws off the handling of the tool.
>
>
>
> At 12/11/2008 at 10:44, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Eugene D
> Abbondelo's keyboard and said:
> >I'm considering buying one of the mini die grinder kits with accessories
made
> >by Dremel. Never had one before. Anyone on the list found them useful?  If
so,
> >any recommendations on particular models to look at?  Pros & cons?
Thanks,
> >Gene
>
>
> Cheers!
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/

From bill at gingerich.us  Thu Dec 11 17:38:00 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:38:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
In-Reply-To: <688FBF1E84CD4A7F908AE717C40B414C@KARL>
References: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL><49415362.5080102@boicey.com><31C1A4C7F1544967A41E30D9F3860069@KARL><0KBQ00254F8C1U60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<688FBF1E84CD4A7F908AE717C40B414C@KARL>
Message-ID: <23EE1A84C38246E583077E89C1BA4F9D@shack2>

Apparently my email didn't get the first message in this thread.  Karl,
which items are you asking about?  I've bought lots of stuff from Smarthome
over the years, and have never been disappointed.

BillG
OKC



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:09 PM
To: Steven Trovato; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring

Thanks Steve !
Lots more info than the little Popular Mechanics article.

Soooo... anyone here have any experience with this stuff ?  Is it really 
reliable or just a toy ??

Karl

From jem at milleredp.com  Thu Dec 11 18:25:38 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:25:38 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
In-Reply-To: <0KBQ00254F8C1U60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <39E9D2D19C694FD4B27C166FECD2B0AB@KARL>
	<49415362.5080102@boicey.com> <31C1A4C7F1544967A41E30D9F3860069@KARL>
	<0KBQ00254F8C1U60@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4941BD92.8080507@milleredp.com>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> Check out www.smarthome.com.  You'll see quite a selection of devices 
> and technologies.

For what it's worth, I've done a fair bit with the X10 stuff over the 
years, our house now has a Lutron Homeworks setup in it which is a 
(maybe too expensive) centralized control system that lets you do some 
things X10 can't, but makes other things that are trivial with X10 quite 
expensive and difficult.  One of my projects-I've-never-quite-gotten-to 
is to write a protocol-bridge to propagate commands from HWI to X10 and 
vice versa.

X10 is quite useful and quite functional, the cheap-and-simple 
zero-crossing signaling it uses on the AC wiring greatly limits the 
amount and speed of data that can be put across the wire so there's a 
lot of delay in the thing which some find bothersome.

There's also issues having to do with being able to assume (or determine 
whether) devices are in a particular state.  All of this matters little 
if all you're trying to do is remote switching; the more you want to do 
and the more you want to integrate the more limiting it gets.  Some 
older house wiring will have trouble routing X10 (and maybe any 
powerline-carrier) signals, or at least routing it across opposite legs 
of the 220V feed, without some add-on circuitry.

Some X10 stuff is quite good, some is quite junky, depending on vendor 
and intended market.

I'm not much acquainted with any of the X10-related RF stuff, and I've 
had only a little experience with some of the newer powerline-carrier 
stuff.

John.

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Dec 12 09:35:54 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:35:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
In-Reply-To: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
References: <4940EF120200007400057992@ntgwgate.loc.gov>
Message-ID: <0KBR0062AVG5FMI1@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have both a corded and a cordless Dremel and I find them very 
useful.  My corded version has a very tightly coiled cord (telephone 
style) that I find inconvenient.  Either I have a large mass of cord 
right at the tool, or I feel like there's a big spring pulling me 
toward the electrical outlet.  Cordless obviously doesn't have this 
problem.  My corded model is over 20 years old, so I don't know if 
they still make the cords this way.

I think the key here is that if you ask people how the Dremel is as a 
"die grinder" you get negative comments.  I think it is a great tool 
that comes in handy lots of times.  But a die grinder is a different 
tool, able to handle bigger jobs.  Think of the Dremel like a 
Dustbuster, and the die grinder like the shop vacuum cleaner.  The 
Dustbuster is handy for lots of things, but it's not going to beat 
the big vacuum in a head-to-head cleaning test.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 12:42:42 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:42:42 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Networked home wiring
Message-ID: <4382458b0812121142k6614c816u4fe21c8654758d67@mail.gmail.com>

I dabbled with X10 stuff a few years ago, still have some switches installed.
I found the inside switches to be cheap. Buy the levelor paddle
switches.  The X10 switches break off the tops pretty quick. You can
still work them manually without it. We quit using the remotes years
ago.

Quirk - *something* turns on the living room lights around 7:00 most
evenings. I guess it's a line spike or something. We consider it a
random security feature ;)

One thing that is usefull, good value, and well made are their outside
motion-sensor floodlight units. each one will activate up to 4 other
X10 devices. So you can have one on the driveway that is off until
someone walks up. then it comes on, and then turns on the porch light,
a 2nd floodlight, and maybe an inside bell and even your bedside table
lamp if you like.
A 2nd motion sensor light can control a separate set of 4, uncluding
some of the same ones the first one does.

Mine are 8 years old and have become unreliable. I am going to try to
buy just the controllers.
The  cost of the lights was $79.95 for a pair back then.

I'd suggest avoiding the X10.com website. it's Spam City, Popups out the wazoo.
Buy from Smarthome, even if it's a little more.

> Soooo... anyone here have any experience with this stuff ?  Is it really
> reliable or just a toy ??
>
> Karl
>
>
>> Check out www.smarthome.com.  You'll see quite a selection of devices and
>> technologies.

From watsonm05 at comcast.net  Fri Dec 12 18:07:03 2008
From: watsonm05 at comcast.net (Mark Watson)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:07:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
References: <20081209154203.HGQH28564.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<F3A776D1AECF45C385F16A5CBE4CE72E@KARL>
Message-ID: <17FE02171D474078960D61A8240289A0@watsongxpejt9r>

Karl,

I like your logic.  It is certainly more straightforward than the twisted 
chain of logic I came up with:  I remember "Wide White" to remember which 
wire goes to which blade.  How do I remember that the white wire is the 
neutral wire?  Well, if you're looking into a dimly lit electrical box which 
wire would be hardest to see?  The black one.  Which wire is the dangerous 
one?  The black one!  Sounds like some kind of plot to at least shock if not 
kill non-electricians to keep them from putting their un-trained hands in 
there!

Mark Watson
(I'm an Electrical Engineer but I work mostly on electronics - anything over 
15V D.C. is high voltage)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>; "'Shop Talk'" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question


> Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the danger of 
> little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is smaller and thus 
> harder to stick something in and get a shock.
>
> Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)
>
>> In fact I can never remember which blade is which
>
>> Randall
> _______________________________________________

From scottmryan at netzero.net  Sat Dec 13 00:51:44 2008
From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan at netzero.net)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 07:51:44 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel die grinder
Message-ID: <20081213.015144.7160.1@webmail02.dca.untd.com>

Richard Beels wrote:
>Variable speed & hand/screw-tightening of the collet are the 2 most
>important "features", IMO.  Cordless is a waste because the weight of
>the battery throws off the handling of the tool.

I agree the hand collets are nice/very important, however some of the battery
powered dremels are well balanced, and don't have the drag of the power cord
to cause the tool to rotate and break the cutting disks. (the one I like best
is a 5 cell (1000mah) dremel, no longer made, that has internal batteries. (I
have had to replace them 3 or 4 times, about every 4-5 years) had to modify
the charger for trickle charge. This one also has more torque/power than most
of the handheld ac models.)  Scott R
____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on real estate schools and make up to $150K/ year
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6rx9PKioVlQkrKFnsjhZ46fRWJ2
2Jx4qSCVqsVNUbTWcKHzhTA/

From rustymetal at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec 14 13:51:11 2008
From: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net (Frank Vantacich)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:51:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question (update)
In-Reply-To: <17FE02171D474078960D61A8240289A0@watsongxpejt9r>
Message-ID: <787181.10872.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is what I metered this weekend:
 
At the subpanel in my barn, where the dilema exists,  the neutral and ground
bars are not attached to one another. Between the two hot legs I get 234vac.
The ground is a UFer, a piece of rebar in my foundation.  I meter 148vac
between ground and one of the hots and 88vac between ground and the other hot
leg.  I meter 119vac between each hot leg and neutral.
 
At the actual receptacle I meter 28vac between the large slot or neutral and
ground, and the same at the subpanel.
 
I would think I should see the same voltages between each hot leg and ground
and neutral?  Or another words the neutral and ground should be at the same
potential?


Frank V.
rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net> wrote:

From: Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
To: "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 5:07 PM

Karl,

I like your logic.  It is certainly more straightforward than the twisted
chain of logic I came up with:  I remember "Wide White" to remember
which
wire goes to which blade.  How do I remember that the white wire is the
neutral wire?  Well, if you're looking into a dimly lit electrical box
which
wire would be hardest to see?  The black one.  Which wire is the dangerous
one?  The black one!  Sounds like some kind of plot to at least shock if not
kill non-electricians to keep them from putting their un-trained hands in
there!

Mark Watson
(I'm an Electrical Engineer but I work mostly on electronics - anything
over
15V D.C. is high voltage)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>; "'Shop
Talk'"
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question


> Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the danger
of
> little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is smaller and thus

> harder to stick something in and get a shock.
>
> Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)
>
>> In fact I can never remember which blade is which
>
>> Randall
> _______________________________________________
You are subscribed as rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Sun Dec 14 14:16:37 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:16:37 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
Message-ID: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>

Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have a cable connection and
have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we would like to tune
into the local news or watch something that is available over-the-air.B 
So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B  We're looking at two
different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we could put in our
large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit ears but since
we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that would be a good choice.
Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us to use?
Thanks!
Brad

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Sun Dec 14 14:54:01 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:54:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question (update)
In-Reply-To: <787181.10872.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <787181.10872.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49458079.5070004@HorneSystemsTx.com>

The ground is normally tied to the neutral only at the main panel, and 
each building fed from the main panel is to have its own ground rod. 
Sounds like there is no ground wire run back to your main panel. Is 
there a 4th wire in the cable running to the main panel? If it is not 
there, and it can be run, I'd add it. if not, I'd tie the neutral to the 
ground in the barn sub panel. That would be safer than having the ground 
and neutral totally isolated as they are now.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Frank Vantacich:
> This is what I metered this weekend:
>  
> At the subpanel in my barn, where the dilema exists,  the neutral and ground
> bars are not attached to one another. Between the two hot legs I get 234vac.
> The ground is a UFer, a piece of rebar in my foundation.  I meter 148vac
> between ground and one of the hots and 88vac between ground and the other hot
> leg.  I meter 119vac between each hot leg and neutral.
>  
> At the actual receptacle I meter 28vac between the large slot or neutral and
> ground, and the same at the subpanel.
>  
> I would think I should see the same voltages between each hot leg and ground
> and neutral?  Or another words the neutral and ground should be at the same
> potential?
>
>
> Frank V.
> rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
>
> --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> From: Mark Watson <watsonm05 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
> To: "'Shop Talk'" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 5:07 PM
>
> Karl,
>
> I like your logic.  It is certainly more straightforward than the twisted
> chain of logic I came up with:  I remember "Wide White" to remember
> which
> wire goes to which blade.  How do I remember that the white wire is the
> neutral wire?  Well, if you're looking into a dimly lit electrical box
> which
> wire would be hardest to see?  The black one.  Which wire is the dangerous
> one?  The black one!  Sounds like some kind of plot to at least shock if not
> kill non-electricians to keep them from putting their un-trained hands in
> there!
>
> Mark Watson
> (I'm an Electrical Engineer but I work mostly on electronics - anything
> over
> 15V D.C. is high voltage)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> To: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>; "'Shop
> Talk'"
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
>
>
>   
>> Don't know that this is the actual reason, but think about the danger
>>     
> of
>   
>> little kids sticking things into receptacles.  The hot is smaller and thus
>>     
>
>   
>> harder to stick something in and get a shock.
>>
>> Elegant reasoning, huh ??   ;-)
>>
>>     
>>> In fact I can never remember which blade is which
>>>       
>>> Randall
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>>     
> You are subscribed as rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: 12/14/2008 12:28 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Sun Dec 14 14:56:21 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:56:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>
References: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <49458105.4070707@HorneSystemsTx.com>

If you get good signal now with the rabbit ears, stay with them, if not, 
put the antenna in the attic. My understanding is that the antennas that 
have been used for normal reception will work just fine for HD. Most of 
the "HD antennas" are just advertising hype to make you buy a new one.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Brad Kahler:
> Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have a cable connection and
> have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we would like to tune
> into the local news or watch something that is available over-the-air.B 
> So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B  We're looking at two
> different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we could put in our
> large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit ears but since
> we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that would be a good choice.
> Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us to use?
> Thanks!
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: 12/14/2008 12:28 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jefftnc at compascable.net  Sun Dec 14 14:59:19 2008
From: jefftnc at compascable.net (Jeff Thompson)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:59:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <NKBBILNBELKGOEOKECCOAEFFDFAA.jefftnc@compascable.net>

Hi Brad,

Before you worry about an antenna, did you sink a fair amount of $$$ into an
HDTV (Hi Definition TV) despite the fact that you don't watch much TV??
Ouch!!

If you mean a regular antenna to be used with a regular TV and a digital to
analog converter I'd be interested in answers to this also.  I'm thinking of
ditching my cable TV subscription.  What a rip-off!!!!

Thanks for fielding this question,

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Brad Kahler
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:17 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna


Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have a cable connection and
have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we would like to tune
into the local news or watch something that is available over-the-air.B
So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B  We're looking at two
different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we could put in our
large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit ears but since
we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that would be a good choice.
Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us to use?
Thanks!
Brad
You are subscribed as jefftnc at compascable.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

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8:26 AM

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Dec 14 15:38:09 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:38:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question (update)
In-Reply-To: <787181.10872.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081214223810.ZHPQ5190.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> At the subpanel in my barn, where the dilema exists,  the 
> neutral and ground bars are not attached to one another. 
> Between the two hot legs I get 234vac.
> The ground is a UFer, a piece of rebar in my foundation.  I 
> meter 148vac between ground and one of the hots and 88vac 
> between ground and the other hot leg.  I meter 119vac between 
> each hot leg and neutral.

Have you checked that the neutral is tied to earth ground somewhere after it
comes off the pole?  As Pat says, that would normally be at the main power
entrance.  If it is missing entirely, then you need to add it.

If it's there, then for some reason the foundation of your barn is at a
different voltage than the ground that the neutral is bonded to.  That
probably means that you have an unnoticed fault current somewhere.

Friend of mine had exactly this problem, and eventually traced it to a nail
head that had been crimped into a wire in the barn.  What he noticed first
was that his power meter was still moving, even with everything turned off.
No telling how many kWH he had put into heating the ground, before he got
around to chasing high electricity bills !

Randall

PS, I'm ashamed to admit that very likely, I drove that nail causing the
short.  But it definitely taught me a lesson !

R

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Sun Dec 14 15:50:18 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:50:18 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
Message-ID: <200812141550181.SM09088@[166.70.182.40]>

There is only one or two channels that we get any decent reception on right
now with rabbit ears.B  Thats one reason I was thinking of an antenna in the
attic (although I don't really care to run the wire down to the living room).
IB had been wondering ifB hd "specific" antennas were sales gimmic, sounds
like it.
Thanks,
Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: "Pat" <Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com>
Sent 12/14/2008 2:56:21 PM
To: "Brad Kahler" <brad.kahler at 141.com>
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] HDTV antennaIf you get good signal now with the
rabbit ears, stay with them, if not,
put the antenna in the attic. My understanding is that the antennas that
have been used for normal reception will work just fine for HD. Most of
the "HD antennas" are just advertising hype to make you buy a new one.
Peace,
Pat
Thusly spake Brad Kahler:
> Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have a cable connection and
> have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we would like to tune
> into the local news or watch something that is available over-the-air.B
> So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B  We're looking at
two
> different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we could put in our
> large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit ears but since
> we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that would be a good choice.
> Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us to use?
> Thanks!
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: 12/14/2008
12:28 PM
>
>
--
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Sun Dec 14 15:58:59 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:58:59 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw:   HDTV antenna
Message-ID: <200812141558494.SM03496@[166.70.182.40]>

Oh we bought a nice 42" plasma tv a couple of months ago, mainly because my
wife got a really good deal on one and from time to time we like to watch a
DVD.
As for the antenna I just wasn't sure if a regular TV antenna would work well
when the switch is complete to digital.
Thanks,
Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jeff Thompson" <jefftnc at compascable.net>
Sent 12/14/2008 2:59:19 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] HDTV antennaHi Brad,
Before you worry about an antenna, did you sink a fair amount of $$$ into an
HDTV (Hi Definition TV) despite the fact that you don't watch much TV??
Ouch!!
If you mean a regular antenna to be used with a regular TV and a digital to
analog converter I'd be interested in answers to this also.  I'm thinking of
ditching my cable TV subscription.  What a rip-off!!!!
Thanks for fielding this question,
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Brad Kahler
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:17 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have a cable connection and
have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we would like to tune
into the local news or watch something that is available over-the-air.B
So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B  We're looking at two
different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we could put in our
large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit ears but since
we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that would be a good choice.
Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us to use?
Thanks!
Brad
You are subscribed as jefftnc at compascable.net
Shop-talk mailing list
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talkhttp://www.team.net/archive
Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 11/4/2008
8:26 AM

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Dec 14 16:04:09 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:04:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <311026.487.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

An antenna that is good for traditional analog broadcasting will be good for digital (HD or regular).

So if you have a usable antenna today, just try tuning in the digital version of your favorite stations to see if you are happy with the results.

Doug

--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:

> From: Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 4:16 PM
> Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have
> a cable connection and
> have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we
> would like to tune
> into the local news or watch something that is available
> over-the-air.B 
> So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B 
> We're looking at two
> different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we
> could put in our
> large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit
> ears but since
> we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that
> would be a good choice.
> Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us
> to use?
> Thanks!
> Brad

From bill at gingerich.us  Sun Dec 14 16:29:55 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:29:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <NKBBILNBELKGOEOKECCOAEFFDFAA.jefftnc@compascable.net>
References: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>
	<NKBBILNBELKGOEOKECCOAEFFDFAA.jefftnc@compascable.net>
Message-ID: <B2E41FF1F2F54325ACE37DCA95E0689A@shack2>

I have an HDTV, 2 of the converter boxes, and a Radio Shack outdoor antenna
mounted in my attic.  I'm about 30 miles from the broadcast towers in OKC.
The coax that feeds from the antenna goes through a 3 way splitter with no
amplification to the 3 TVs.  Reception of the digital signals is just fine -
most of the time.  I do lose a couple of the channels when we get heavy
rain, but other than that I've had no problems.

BillG
OKC

   

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Thompson
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:59 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna

Hi Brad,

Before you worry about an antenna, did you sink a fair amount of $$$ into an
HDTV (Hi Definition TV) despite the fact that you don't watch much TV??
Ouch!!

If you mean a regular antenna to be used with a regular TV and a digital to
analog converter I'd be interested in answers to this also.  I'm thinking of
ditching my cable TV subscription.  What a rip-off!!!!

Thanks for fielding this question,

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Brad Kahler
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:17 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna


Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have a cable connection and
have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we would like to tune
into the local news or watch something that is available over-the-air.B
So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B  We're looking at two
different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we could put in our
large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit ears but since
we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that would be a good choice.
Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us to use?
Thanks!
Brad
You are subscribed as jefftnc at compascable.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 11/4/2008
8:26 AM
You are subscribed as bill at gingerich.us

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From Don55CM at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 17:17:21 2008
From: Don55CM at aol.com (Don55CM at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:17:21 EST
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
Message-ID: <c87.41458b1a.3676fc11@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/14/2008 6:20:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
doug at dougbraun.com writes:

An  antenna that is good for traditional analog broadcasting will be good for 
 digital (HD or regular).

So if you have a usable antenna today, just  try tuning in the digital 
version of your favorite stations to see if you are  happy with the results.

Doug



Any good UHF antenna will be good for HD / digital TV.   A directional 
antenna mounted up high will work a lot better than the  little wire loop that came 
with the TV.  A VHF antenna (like  the rabbit ears) that only pulls in the old 
channels 2-13 (no  decimal point) won't work after next February.  The new 
digital  channels (2.1, 2.2, etc.) are actually located up in the UHF  band.
 
Don

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 17:28:05 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:28:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <200812141558494.SM03496@166.70.182.40>
References: <200812141558494.SM03496@166.70.182.40>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812141628g4192a8c6tb4ea6b26273cbba8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Brad Kahler <brad.kahler at 141.com> wrote:
> Oh we bought a nice 42" plasma tv a couple of months ago, mainly because my
> wife got a really good deal on one and from time to time we like to watch a
> DVD.
> As for the antenna I just wasn't sure if a regular TV antenna would work well
> when the switch is complete to digital.

Yes.  Digital TV is on the same set of frequencies as analog TV.
(There's a big oddity in the channel numbering; channel numbers in DTV
have nothing to do with frequency.  So channel 10 might be
broadcasting on what should be channel 20, and it may move back to
channel 10 when the transition happens.)  So any antenna that works
with analog TV will work with digital.

The one problem is that digital range isn't as good as analog.  If
you've got any  sort of snow in the analog picture, it's likely you
won't be able to get a good digital signal.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 17:38:30 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:38:30 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
Message-ID: <ea2385360812141638p28336226kb8c70dad419b2097@mail.gmail.com>

*I have cable at my home and I'm switching to dish soon so I have no problem
with HD.  At my shop, however, I have an antenna so I applied for a coupon
to buy a "box" . . "NONONO!"  says the website, only for residential
addresses!  I guess this is some sort of social program . . musn't help a
business address . . . sigh . . *
*Tony*

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 17:41:58 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:41:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <c87.41458b1a.3676fc11@aol.com>
References: <c87.41458b1a.3676fc11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812141641u27a7fafbmd7d7dfb648dbc09@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 7:17 PM,  <Don55CM at aol.com> wrote:
> In a message dated 12/14/2008 6:20:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> doug at dougbraun.com writes:
>
> An  antenna that is good for traditional analog broadcasting will be good for
>  digital (HD or regular).
>
> So if you have a usable antenna today, just  try tuning in the digital
> version of your favorite stations to see if you are  happy with the results.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> Any good UHF antenna will be good for HD / digital TV.   A directional
> antenna mounted up high will work a lot better than the  little wire loop that came
> with the TV.  A VHF antenna (like  the rabbit ears) that only pulls in the old
> channels 2-13 (no  decimal point) won't work after next February.  The new
> digital  channels (2.1, 2.2, etc.) are actually located up in the UHF  band.
>

No.  The VHF band is solidly part of the digital TV world.  What's
happened is that digital TV decouples the "display channel" (what your
receiver tells you you're watching, 16-1, for instance.) from the
actual frequency at which the station is broadcast.  Many, probably
most, of the existing VHF stations are, currently, broadcasting on a
different UHF channel.  Most will switch back after the analog
transmitter shuts down.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Dec 14 17:56:49 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:56:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812141628g4192a8c6tb4ea6b26273cbba8@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <200812141558494.SM03496@166.70.182.40>
	<2400a5d40812141628g4192a8c6tb4ea6b26273cbba8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0KBW00CHD7YOR5A0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I think the problem is that with analog, there is such a thing as 
poor but watchable reception.  With the digital, you get either a 
nice picture or no picture.

At 07:28 PM 12/14/2008, David Scheidt wrote:

>The one problem is that digital range isn't as good as analog.  If
>you've got any  sort of snow in the analog picture, it's likely you
>won't be able to get a good digital signal.
>
>--

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Dec 14 18:06:04 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:06:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
Message-ID: <177A5E71B5FA483287F2D6987A221DB5@KARL>

<snip lots of stuff I sent directly to Frank>

If your ground is a rebar in your concrete foundation, encased in concrete,
that's NOT a good ground.  You should get a real ground rod - a solid piece of
copper or heavily copper-plated steel rod, generally about 5/8" in diameter,
and at least 8 feet long, and pound it into the ground.  Into the earth, not
just into a slab of concrete.  Electrical supply hopuses sell actual ground
rods, and ground clamps to reliably attach a heavy wire to the ground rod,
which you then lead up to your panel.

You're putting some voltage into your "ground" and it's not really being
grounded.  That's why you get a reading between the poor "ground" and neutral,
which is at least close to ground potential.

You don't have an actual ground.  This is what happens under those
circumstances.  The inspector should have caught that.  He's dangerously
incompetent.

<snip more ranting about inspector>

Please make a real ground before using the electricity out in your barn.  Then
recheck the voltages.

<snip more stuff>

I believe that with a proper ground you should be OK.

By the way, here's a link to a decent explanation of the bonding issue and
subpanels.  http://members.tripod.com/~masterslic/FAQ-2/18.html

If this service has its own service (ie on its own meter, fed from the
electric company, not the house), then you can bond the neutral to ground.
However, do so only if it has its own meter, and only after you install a
proper earth ground rod.

Good luck !
Karl


        Hey Karl, here is what I metered today:

        At the subpanel in my barn, where the dilema exists,  the neutral and
ground bars are not attached to one another. Between the two hot legs I get
234vac. The ground is a UFer, a piece of rebar in my foundation.  I meter
148vac between ground and one of the hots and 88vac between ground and the
other hot leg.  I meter 119vac between each hot leg and neutral.

        At the actual receptacle I meter 28vac between the large slot or
neutral and ground, and the same at the subpanel.

        I would think I should see the same voltages between each hot leg and
ground and neutral?  Or another words the neutral and ground should be
basically at the same potential?  So do I have a bad UFer connection?

        Thanks  for your time Karl.

        Frank V.
        rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Dec 14 18:08:44 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:08:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
Message-ID: <7D3F6CB7CF3A44758F60F9C85106243C@KARL>

Frank -

I forgot to finish what I asked about your connection between the house and
the barn.  I assume you DID NOT carry the ground out to the barn and connect
the grounds (house and barn) together.  In some places it's permissible to
just carry the ground (separate wire from the neutral) to the subpanel amd let
that be the ground with no ground rod.  I think some circumstances might
require this, and in installing a subpanel within the same building it makes
sense.

However, with a completely separate building, I believe you should be best off
with a separate ground and DON'T connect the two grounds (house and barn)
together.  The theory there is that there should be no potential between your
electrical ground and a person who is physically grounded to the actual
ground.  If for some reason ground at the house is at a slightly different
potential than at the barn (not common but possible), then carrying the house
ground out to the barn would allow some slight potential between the
electrical ground in the barn and the actual ground there, and thus a
possibility of shock.  If you connect the grounds and also have ground rods at
both places, the ground wire will carry some current all the time, which isn't
proper.

Knowing your local codes would help you on this, but since the inspector
apparently was expecting to see a separate ground in the barn that's probably
what your code calls for.  Again, it's the most common, and what I do in that
circumstance.

Karl

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Dec 14 18:35:10 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:35:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <177A5E71B5FA483287F2D6987A221DB5@KARL>
References: <177A5E71B5FA483287F2D6987A221DB5@KARL>
Message-ID: <4945B44E.2040500@xxiii.com>

Karl Vacek wrote:
> If your ground is a rebar in your concrete foundation, encased in concrete,
> that's NOT a good ground.  You should get a real ground rod - a solid piece of

I had not heard of such a thing till a year or so ago.  But the "ufer 
ground" is legit, and possibly better than a soil-encased rod:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_Ground
http://www.scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

   -W

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Dec 14 18:41:43 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:41:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812141628g4192a8c6tb4ea6b26273cbba8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38525.45985.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The channel number thing reminds me of European TV:  Over there, the "channel number" concept isn't really used.  Of course, any particular TV station transmits on some particular frequencies, but they aren't identified by number.  The TVs have channel numbers when they are tuned, but each number can be independently tuned to any frequency, pretty like numbered memory buttons of a car stereo.  

Has anyone ever seen a remote control for a European TV?  They have a whole slew of buttons with totally inscrutable icons...

BTW, last year when I got a modern TV and could tune in both the analog and digital versions of various stations, I was pleasantly surprised how good the digital reception was.  Several analog stations that had a moderate amount of snow and ghosts looked fine in digital.

Doug


--- On Sun, 12/14/08, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes.  Digital TV is on the same set of frequencies as
> analog TV.
> (There's a big oddity in the channel numbering; channel
> numbers in DTV
> have nothing to do with frequency.  So channel 10 might be
> broadcasting on what should be channel 20, and it may move
> back to
> channel 10 when the transition happens.)  So any antenna
> that works
> with analog TV will work with digital.
> 
> The one problem is that digital range isn't as good as
> analog.  If
> you've got any  sort of snow in the analog picture,
> it's likely you
> won't be able to get a good digital signal.
> 
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Sun Dec 14 19:10:19 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:10:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
References: <ea2385360812141638p28336226kb8c70dad419b2097@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C374174CF561457F9BDDF974EF093B90@Dell9200>

There you go Tony, another business looking for a bail out!

Mark
Nashville

PS  Have them ship the cards to your house!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
*I have cable at my home and I'm switching to dish soon so I have no problem
with HD.  At my shop, however, I have an antenna so I applied for a coupon
to buy a "box" . . "NONONO!"  says the website, only for residential
addresses!  I guess this is some sort of social program . . musn't help a
business address . . . sigh . . *
*Tony*

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sun Dec 14 19:32:49 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:32:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
References: <177A5E71B5FA483287F2D6987A221DB5@KARL>
	<4945B44E.2040500@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <C1FA71EA43FA4E6FA93FEC64DDB222AD@KARL>

Interesting - but it doesn't seem to be working so ufering well in Frank's 
case.  Ufer grounding refers to grounding to a network of rebars that are 
well tied together - are your rebars, mesh, etc. all nicely tied together, 
Frank, or is the ground to only one rebar that may not contact anything 
else, or at least not be well tied with good clean connections to the rest 
of the mesh and rebars ?

And whatever the case, since it doesn't seem to be working, a real ground 
rod is cheap and definitely does work, as long as it's not pounded only into 
dead-dry ground, like the desert, where a ufer ground wouldn't work in this 
case either.  Or tie it in with the Ufer system too - just get a real ground 
rod.

The Ufer ground was primarily developed to dissipate lightning strikes, 
which carry far higher voltage than domestic ac electrical service.  That 
can blast through poor, rusty, high-resistance connections between rebars, 
whereas a few amps at 110-220 volts may or may not do so well.  A little 
resistance in those connections can allow the ground to float as Franks' 
seems to be doing.  The minuscule amperage of the meter or the neon-light 
tester is no match for a rusty, high-resistance connection.  It allows a 
floating ground, at least at relatively low voltage and current, as Frank 
has.

By the way - the Wikipedia article states "If Ufer grounding alone was 
enough, the manufacturers of ground rods would go out of business. But a 
Ufer ground alone it is not adequate."  It goes on to note that the NEC 
requires a regular grounding rod.

Karl



> Karl Vacek wrote:
>> If your ground is a rebar in your concrete foundation, encased in 
>> concrete,
>> that's NOT a good ground.  You should get a real ground rod - a solid 
>> piece of
>
> I had not heard of such a thing till a year or so ago.  But the "ufer 
> ground" is legit, and possibly better than a soil-encased rod:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_Ground
> http://www.scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
>
>   -W

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 14 19:46:23 2008
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:46:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>
References: <200812141416260.SM07320@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <4945C4FF.10602@earthlink.net>

Brad,

Try it with whatever antenna you already have.  I use the old existing 
antenna that was already well rusted when I moved in back in 2000 for my 
main TV.  I use rabbit ears that came with my 1990 purchased TV in the 
bedroom with a converter box.  Both get channels digital channels better 
than analog.  With the rabbit ears TV I sometimes have to adjust them 
and they are subject to more interference than the roof antenna.

Go to http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx and put in your address 
to see where to point your antenna and see what stations their computer 
thinks you should get.  They were right on with my reception in the Los 
Angeles area.

Brian

Brad Kahler wrote:
> Since we're not much into watching TVB we don't have a cable connection and
> have no desire to have one.B  However there are times we would like to tune
> into the local news or watch something that is available over-the-air.B 
> So the question is what would be a good HDTV antenna?B  We're looking at two
> different types, rabbit ear style or a larger one that we could put in our
> large open attic.B  My preference would probably be rabbit ears but since
> we're kind of out in the country I'm not sure that would be a good choice.
> Any recommendations on what would be a good choice for us to use?
> Thanks!
> Brad
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 20:00:46 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:00:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] HDTV antenna
In-Reply-To: <C374174CF561457F9BDDF974EF093B90@Dell9200>
References: <ea2385360812141638p28336226kb8c70dad419b2097@mail.gmail.com>
	<C374174CF561457F9BDDF974EF093B90@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <ea2385360812141900s1aff9862t4a0c2aa769c6d76@mail.gmail.com>

*Wrong!!!  It's a discrimination issue!  :->*
*They won't ship it to your house unless you lie and say you don't have
cable!  I guess if you lie, they send Homeland Security!*
*Tony*

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 8:10 PM, Mark <mark at nashvilletn.org> wrote:

> There you go Tony, another business looking for a bail out!
>
> Mark
> Nashville
>
> PS  Have them ship the cards to your house!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" <eltonclark at gmail.com>
> *I have cable at my home and I'm switching to dish soon so I have no
> problem
> with HD.  At my shop, however, I have an antenna so I applied for a coupon
> to buy a "box" . . "NONONO!"  says the website, only for residential
> addresses!  I guess this is some sort of social program . . musn't help a
> business address . . . sigh . . *
> *Tony*

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 20:17:57 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:17:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <C1FA71EA43FA4E6FA93FEC64DDB222AD@KARL>
References: <177A5E71B5FA483287F2D6987A221DB5@KARL>
	<4945B44E.2040500@xxiii.com> <C1FA71EA43FA4E6FA93FEC64DDB222AD@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812141917k7bf700c5ubd120098909038ff@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 9:32 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

>
> By the way - the Wikipedia article states "If Ufer grounding alone was
> enough, the manufacturers of ground rods would go out of business. But a
> Ufer ground alone it is not adequate."  It goes on to note that the NEC
> requires a regular grounding rod.

The wikipedia article says no such thing.  One of the sites they link
to does.  However, NEC ground rods suck in much of the country (they
work fine in most of the midwest, where you (and I) are.)  Put me
somewhere dry, and I'll take a badly built Ufer system over a dozen
ground rods.  One good piece of rebar in the concrete is better
grounded than the rods are.


I'm not at all convinced the OP's problem is a bad ground.  I suspect
he's got a fault.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sun Dec 14 20:40:00 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 03:40:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] genie garage door opener installation?
In-Reply-To: <31C1A4C7F1544967A41E30D9F3860069@KARL>
Message-ID: <348345298.648901229312400148.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

as always, I have the obvious question: 

I read the directions back and front, and don't see it...at what point does the assembly get attached to the ceiling? I'd think assembling the motor and rail on the floor and then lifting the whole thing would make the rail get misaligned. on the other hand, it mentions turning the motor and rail over a few times in the directions. 

right now, since it's not mentioned, I'm assuming the whole thing is assembled on the floor then lifted into position. has any one installed one of these things? 

hints, directions, etc. gladly accepted. 

thanks. 

scott 

From bobdyar at cox.net  Sun Dec 14 21:31:33 2008
From: bobdyar at cox.net (Bob Dyar)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:31:33 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] genie garage door opener installation?
References: <348345298.648901229312400148.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <EEC09CA782E541A685B8285D2EF92A7B@BOB55E5F9E3D2>

on the garage door openers that I have installed , you fix the rail to the 
garage wall and then secure the drive unit.

Bob D 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 21:54:34 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:54:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] genie garage door opener installation?
In-Reply-To: <EEC09CA782E541A685B8285D2EF92A7B@BOB55E5F9E3D2>
References: <348345298.648901229312400148.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<EEC09CA782E541A685B8285D2EF92A7B@BOB55E5F9E3D2>
Message-ID: <ea2385360812142054o4cb9f082vc4c012811f969080@mail.gmail.com>

*Yes, mounting to the door first insures correct placement of the drive unit
. . been there twice.*

From eric at megageek.com  Sun Dec 14 21:46:23 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:46:23 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] genie garage door opener installation?
In-Reply-To: <348345298.648901229312400148.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <OFA1ED9154.FD108A27-ON43257520.001AEECE-43257520.001B0F91@mail.megageek.com>

typically, you build them on the floor.  Then the end hear the door goes 
up with a pin,  then you lift the other end up and attach it to the 
already hang angle iron  with all the holes so you can line it up better.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



scott.hall at comcast.net 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/15/2008 06:38 AM

To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
[Shop-talk] genie garage door opener installation?






as always, I have the obvious question: 

I read the directions back and front, and don't see it...at what point 
does the assembly get attached to the ceiling? I'd think assembling the 
motor and rail on the floor and then lifting the whole thing would make 
the rail get misaligned. on the other hand, it mentions turning the motor 
and rail over a few times in the directions. 

right now, since it's not mentioned, I'm assuming the whole thing is 
assembled on the floor then lifted into position. has any one installed 
one of these things? 

hints, directions, etc. gladly accepted. 

thanks. 

scott 
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From aztvr at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 14 21:56:30 2008
From: aztvr at yahoo.com (Jim S.)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:56:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] genie garage door opener installation?
In-Reply-To: <348345298.648901229312400148.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <746214.2505.qm@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The way I have always done it was to assemble the unit on the floor, then
attach the rail end to the bracket that you mount above the garage door.  Then
lift the motor unit and set it on top of a step ladder. Then use a box or
something as a spacer to lift it up to its final position if you can.  Then
you can get all of the brackets to hang it from positioned exactly right and
mark everything.    Then you might take it down and cut and mount all of the
support bracketry and then repeat the step of putting it on top of the ladder
again and bolt it in place.
 
Jim

--- On Sun, 12/14/08, scott.hall at comcast.net <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:

From: scott.hall at comcast.net <scott.hall at comcast.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] genie garage door opener installation?
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:40 PM

as always, I have the obvious question:

I read the directions back and front, and don't see it...at what point does
the assembly get attached to the ceiling? I'd think assembling the motor and
rail on the floor and then lifting the whole thing would make the rail get
misaligned. on the other hand, it mentions turning the motor and rail over a
few
times in the directions.

right now, since it's not mentioned, I'm assuming the whole thing is
assembled on the floor then lifted into position. has any one installed one
of
these things?

hints, directions, etc. gladly accepted.

thanks.

scott
You are subscribed as aztvr at yahoo.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Dec 15 03:27:23 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:27:23 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
References: <386654.72708.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00E468B181474B14B1B34EF5A36657AD@KARL>

Yes, Frank, it IS wrong to tie the neutral and ground together in the barn.
That's what I've been referred to as bonding.  The article to which I
previously sent you a link explains why, more plainly and in fewer words than
I'd use.  Here it is again:
http://members.tripod.com/~masterslic/FAQ-2/18.html

Karl


        Nope, I did not carry the ground from the house out to the barn.  It
makes sense what your saying about the UFer not doing its job.

        Is it wrong to tie the neutral and ground together at the subpanel in
the barn, even though they are tied together in the main panel at the house?

        Thanks for your help.


        Frank V.
        rustymetal at sbcglobal.net

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Dec 15 03:38:00 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:38:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
References: <177A5E71B5FA483287F2D6987A221DB5@KARL><4945B44E.2040500@xxiii.com>
	<C1FA71EA43FA4E6FA93FEC64DDB222AD@KARL>
	<2400a5d40812141917k7bf700c5ubd120098909038ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95A08093469F462399338856269802F6@KARL>

Yes, Dave, I see that you're right.  in fact that main Wikipedia article has 
only about 2 sentences.  I'm not a big WIkipedia user, and didn't note that 
the links were marked as "external".  But the external article that the 
Wikipedia article links to does indeed carry the quote that I copied from 
it - I didn't write it.

Karl



> The wikipedia article says no such thing.  One of the sites they link
> to does.  However, NEC ground rods suck in much of the country (they
> work fine in most of the midwest, where you (and I) are.)  Put me
> somewhere dry, and I'll take a badly built Ufer system over a dozen
> ground rods.  One good piece of rebar in the concrete is better
> grounded than the rods are.
>
>
> I'm not at all convinced the OP's problem is a bad ground.  I suspect
> he's got a fault.
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From pmthicke at centurytel.net  Mon Dec 15 09:20:34 2008
From: pmthicke at centurytel.net (Paul and Mary Thicke)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:20:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <00E468B181474B14B1B34EF5A36657AD@KARL>
Message-ID: <700782B0A89E4F099F3B3B9AA92B364E@luap>

Since you do not have that fourth wire, which is a ground wire from the
house to the barn,  I would say that you should tie the neutral and the
ground together in the barn panel.  This will connect your ground wires out
there through the neutral to house panel where the neutral and ground are
also tied together.  This is seen a lot on the out buildings on farms.  I
believe that this is considered a separate service and one requirement is
that there is no other metal connection between the two buildings such as a
water or phone line.  I think that this been changed in the latest NEC and
four wires are now required at every outbuilding.  As far as the ground rod
or Ufer at the barn, A ground rod out there will provide some level of
lightning and transient protection, but does not necessarily protect against
shocks or short circuits.  If you rely on only the ground rod out there for
your grounding, The breaker may not even trip if there is a short to ground
because the ground rod can have too much resistance to the earth and the
amperage will not come up enough to trip the breaker.  It might be best to
ask your local electrical inspector about this as they sometimes have
different rules for the out building ground rods.

Paul



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Karl Vacek
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:27 AM
To: rustymetal at sbcglobal.net; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question


Yes, Frank, it IS wrong to tie the neutral and ground together in the barn.
That's what I've been referred to as bonding.  The article to which I
previously sent you a link explains why, more plainly and in fewer words
than I'd use.  Here it is again:
http://members.tripod.com/~masterslic/FAQ-2/18.html

Karl


        Nope, I did not carry the ground from the house out to the barn.  It
makes sense what your saying about the UFer not doing its job.

        Is it wrong to tie the neutral and ground together at the subpanel
in the barn, even though they are tied together in the main panel at the
house?

        Thanks for your help.


        Frank V.
        rustymetal at sbcglobal.net
You are subscribed as pmthicke at centurytel.net

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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 09:55:32 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:55:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 110vac outlet question
In-Reply-To: <95A08093469F462399338856269802F6@KARL>
References: <177A5E71B5FA483287F2D6987A221DB5@KARL>
	<4945B44E.2040500@xxiii.com> <C1FA71EA43FA4E6FA93FEC64DDB222AD@KARL>
	<2400a5d40812141917k7bf700c5ubd120098909038ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<95A08093469F462399338856269802F6@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812150855g3602ff09p72beefc02f7751dc@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:38 AM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> Yes, Dave, I see that you're right.  in fact that main Wikipedia article has
> only about 2 sentences.  I'm not a big WIkipedia user, and didn't note that
> the links were marked as "external".  But the external article that the
> Wikipedia article links to does indeed carry the quote that I copied from it
> - I didn't write it.
>

No, I wasn't claiming you'd written it.  But it's on the website of
someone in business of selling grounding solutions.  Since a Ufer
ground costs very nearly nothing to install when pouring concrete
(only labor costs of making sure the rebar or mesh are connected
properly), requires  roughly zero maintance, and works remarkably
well, it's within the realm of possibility that they're not entirely
unbiased.  (Of course, it's really amazingly expensive to retrofit
one. )


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Dec 17 16:22:48 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:22:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
Message-ID: <COL110-W46B25F2DDC674ECF22306ACCF20@phx.gbl>

My house has a partially finished attic that is heated by a 60" electric strip
heater.  The attic was finished by the previous owner and we almost never use
it, except for storage.  We have never needed to use the heater, which was
always a good thing, as it buzzed very loudly and emitted quite a bit of
ozone.  I have kept the circuit breaker turned off, just because I never
really trusted the damn thing.  However, we are going to have a full house
over Xmas and will need to use the attic and keep it warm.  So, 4 years after
moving into the house, I finally have to try to fix it.

I decided to see if the ozone (I am assuming that is what it is) went away if
the heater was left on for a little while.  While the smoke alarm went off a
couple of minutes after we turned it on, the smell went away and alarm didn't
come back on.  So, one problem down.  The buzzing was a different story.  It
buzzes whenever the heater cycles on, stops when the thermostat turns it off.
I pulled the covers looking for obvious causes, thought I found a couple, but
fixing them did nothing.  The buzzing is coming from the heating element,
which has aluminum fins on it and nothing seems to stop it.  My first question
is if anyone has any idea why a heating element would buzz and what to do
about it, but I discovered something even more puzzling when I was working on
it.

The heater is controlled by a 20 Amp 220v circuit breaker.  I always just
assumed it was a 220v heater (there is another one in the house that was
installed about the same time).  But, when I had the covers off I noticed that
the labels indicate it is a 22 Amp, 120 volt heater.  I checked the fuse box
and the voltage at the unit and it is definitely wired for 220; both the white
and black wires were hot.  Thinking that too much power might somehow cause
the buzzing I replaced the 220 breaker with a 120 one and re-routed the white
wire to the neutral buss.  Heater still buzzes.

I can just replace the damn thing, but this is driving me crazy.  I am always
hesitant to "correct" a professional's mistake.  Is there some reason why an
electrician would have wired a 120 volt heater to 220 volts?  Any ideas about
the buzzing?  As always, any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
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2008

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Wed Dec 17 16:38:52 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:38:52 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W46B25F2DDC674ECF22306ACCF20@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W46B25F2DDC674ECF22306ACCF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <49498D8C.7090107@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Jim,

The smell you noticed was probably dust that accumulated on the heating 
element burning off, much the same as a
central furnace does the first time it is fired up after being off for a 
long time.

See if there is any markings on the heating element itself to indicate 
what voltage is is designed to work on. It may
be that someone swapped out the element for a 220V unit. Usually a 220V 
device will draw less current than it would
on 120V.

You didn't need to replace the breaker, just move the white wire to the 
neutral buss and not use both halves of the breaker.

As for the buzzing, a lot of cheaper heaters do this. I have a portable 
space heater that buzzes when it turns on, but after
about 20 seconds, starts getting quieter, until after about a minute, 
you can hardly hear it. This heater just has a resistance
wire strung on insulators, with nothing for it to vibrate against. I 
doubt it has anything to do with inductance and magnetics,
but I have no idea what would cause it.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Jim Stone:
> My house has a partially finished attic that is heated by a 60" electric strip
> heater.  The attic was finished by the previous owner and we almost never use
> it, except for storage.  We have never needed to use the heater, which was
> always a good thing, as it buzzed very loudly and emitted quite a bit of
> ozone.  I have kept the circuit breaker turned off, just because I never
> really trusted the damn thing.  However, we are going to have a full house
> over Xmas and will need to use the attic and keep it warm.  So, 4 years after
> moving into the house, I finally have to try to fix it.
>
> I decided to see if the ozone (I am assuming that is what it is) went away if
> the heater was left on for a little while.  While the smoke alarm went off a
> couple of minutes after we turned it on, the smell went away and alarm didn't
> come back on.  So, one problem down.  The buzzing was a different story.  It
> buzzes whenever the heater cycles on, stops when the thermostat turns it off.
> I pulled the covers looking for obvious causes, thought I found a couple, but
> fixing them did nothing.  The buzzing is coming from the heating element,
> which has aluminum fins on it and nothing seems to stop it.  My first question
> is if anyone has any idea why a heating element would buzz and what to do
> about it, but I discovered something even more puzzling when I was working on
> it.
>
> The heater is controlled by a 20 Amp 220v circuit breaker.  I always just
> assumed it was a 220v heater (there is another one in the house that was
> installed about the same time).  But, when I had the covers off I noticed that
> the labels indicate it is a 22 Amp, 120 volt heater.  I checked the fuse box
> and the voltage at the unit and it is definitely wired for 220; both the white
> and black wires were hot.  Thinking that too much power might somehow cause
> the buzzing I replaced the 220 breaker with a 120 one and re-routed the white
> wire to the neutral buss.  Heater still buzzes.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Dec 17 16:53:20 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:53:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W46B25F2DDC674ECF22306ACCF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <122985.84857.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If the heater was meant for 120V and it was connected to 220V, it would burn out, blow the circuit breaker (or burn up) REAL fast!

But if it was meant for 220v and connected to 120V, it simply wouldn't get very warm.

Doug


--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:

> From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 6:22 PM
> My house has a partially finished attic that is heated by a
> 60" electric strip
> heater. 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Dec 17 17:00:05 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:00:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W46B25F2DDC674ECF22306ACCF20@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W46B25F2DDC674ECF22306ACCF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01f101c960a3$95a082f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> But, when I had the covers off I noticed
> that
> the labels indicate it is a 22 Amp, 120 volt heater.

That seems very odd to me.  22 amps means it would not run from an ordinary
household circuit, so why 120v?  Since I've found incorrect labels before,
I'd want to try to check how much current/power it actually draws.

>  Is there some reason why an
> electrician would have wired a 120 volt heater to 220 volts?

Not deliberately.

>   Any ideas about the buzzing?  

Dunno that it's relevant, but I have a portable quartz tube heater that
makes an awful racket when it's first warmed up.  The element is a coil
inside the tube, and it does not fit snugly when cold.  Once it gets hot, it
does fit snugly and the noise disappears.

If you have been running a 120v heater on 220v, perhaps it's overheated and
the tube is now oversize?  At any rate, I doubt you are going to fix it ...

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 17:18:39 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:18:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
In-Reply-To: <01f101c960a3$95a082f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <COL110-W46B25F2DDC674ECF22306ACCF20@phx.gbl>
	<01f101c960a3$95a082f0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812171618w419f755s8cb57111e0ca60c9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> But, when I had the covers off I noticed
>> that
>> the labels indicate it is a 22 Amp, 120 volt heater.
>
> That seems very odd to me.  22 amps means it would not run from an ordinary
> household circuit, so why 120v?  Since I've found incorrect labels before,
> I'd want to try to check how much current/power it actually draws.
>

Is it possible it's intended to be one of a pair, wired in series?

You're not going to stop it buzzing.  Either live with it, or replace it.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From trevor at boicey.com  Wed Dec 17 18:10:17 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:10:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
In-Reply-To: <122985.84857.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <122985.84857.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4949A2F9.3000801@boicey.com>

Doug Braun wrote:
> If the heater was meant for 120V and it was connected to 220V, it
> would burn out, blow the circuit breaker (or burn up) REAL fast!

   I wouldn't bet your house on this, but I know of at least one heater 
in my world that is 220v or 110v.

   The heater element in my hot tub is the same whether your tub is 110v 
or 220v. It is rated for 1500w at 110v or 6000w at 220v.

   So I wouldn't take this as ANY recommendation to let 'er rip at 220v 
unattended, but if it's just a plain resistance heater....

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Dec 17 19:54:39 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:54:39 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
In-Reply-To: <4949A2F9.3000801@boicey.com>
References: <122985.84857.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4949A2F9.3000801@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <COL110-W726984FC5DBEFFDB22DDC8CCF30@phx.gbl>

Mystery solved.  I went to Lowes to pick up a new one and they sold the same
brand (Fahrenheat manufactured by Marley) and what appeared to be the same
unit.  The box and the unit itself is clearly marked 240 Volts.  So, I figured
I'd made a mistake or the old one was mismarked or was in fact, dual voltage.
So, I put the dual breaker back in and swapped units.  With the old one out I
could clearly see the sticker that said "WARNING: RISK OF FIRE.  USE 120 VOLTS
ONLY."  The instructions that come with it tell you to double check the inside
label to be sure you have the correct voltage.  I assume the builder specified
240, got 120 and the electrician didn't check and installed it anyway.  I
would guess that running at double voltage somehow caused the buzzing.  And,
the idiot also attached the ground wire to the box, but attached everything in
such a way that there was no connection between the unit and the box, hence no
ground.  So much for not correcting professional's mistakes!

Now I have to worry about what else he did wrong!

> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:10:17 -0500
> From: trevor at boicey.com
> To: doug at dougbraun.com
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net; jandkstone99 at msn.com
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mysterious Stip Heater
>
> Doug Braun wrote:
> > If the heater was meant for 120V and it was connected to 220V, it
> > would burn out, blow the circuit breaker (or burn up) REAL fast!
>
>    I wouldn't bet your house on this, but I know of at least one heater
> in my world that is 220v or 110v.
>
>    The heater element in my hot tub is the same whether your tub is 110v
> or 220v. It is rated for 1500w at 110v or 6000w at 220v.
>
>    So I wouldn't take this as ANY recommendation to let 'er rip at 220v
> unattended, but if it's just a plain resistance heater....

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere
_122008

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 18 09:00:24 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:00:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
Message-ID: <267712342A1D4324B18051EF73151DED@KARL>

Surely there are some experienced GPS users on this list.

I've got a Garmin 60C my sister gave me a year ago.  They could never get it
to load maps, and eventually they had them in their cars.  I got it working,
and use it to route myself on inspeection trips, where I need to photograph
the exterior of buildings and land.  It's far better than nothing, but overall
this unit is OK at best.  It's limited in memory (no slots), has a slooooow
processor, and it handles waypoints and re-routing poorly.  Based on this
quirky unit, the expensive and out-of-date maps, and the nasty treatment in
the Garmin store in downtown Chicago, I don't see at all how they're the
leaders.

I currently have a chance to buy anything TomTom sells at an incredible
discount, but I don't know anyone who has one.  Seems to be a European brand.
The few American reviews I've found have been very positive, and they
advertise a user community to upgrade maps - but I have no idea if that's
really active and useful.

I'm interested in the 930T, for the traffic info it can potentially provide as
well as a faster processor, memory slot, and more user-friendliness than I get
with the Garmin.  It sounds like I'd need to link it in with my cell phone (my
service is Verizon) to obtain traffic info.  It's currently on sale for $450 -
with the additional discount off the sale price, I can get it for $270.

Anyone know about TomTom in general and this unit specifically ?  I'm
particularly interested in the traffic interface, as well as map upgrades.
And why it has such a weird name  ;-)

Thanks!
Karl

From brad.kahler at 141.com  Thu Dec 18 09:50:36 2008
From: brad.kahler at 141.com (Brad Kahler)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:50:36 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
Message-ID: <200812180950739.SM05280@[166.70.182.40]>

WeB have a Tom Tom One and for the most part like it.B  Be aware that the
newer versions have regional maps and not national maps.B  Also map updates
cost a LOT.B 
Not sure if I would buy another one, at least not until I had hands on with
others.
YMMV,
Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
Sent 12/18/2008 9:00:24 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?Surely there are some experienced GPS
users on this list.
I've got a Garmin 60C my sister gave me a year ago.  They could never get it
to load maps, and eventually they had them in their cars.  I got it working,
and use it to route myself on inspeection trips, where I need to photograph
the exterior of buildings and land.  It's far better than nothing, but
overall
this unit is OK at best.  It's limited in memory (no slots), has a slooooow
processor, and it handles waypoints and re-routing poorly.  Based on this
quirky unit, the expensive and out-of-date maps, and the nasty treatment in
the Garmin store in downtown Chicago, I don't see at all how they're the
leaders.
I currently have a chance to buy anything TomTom sells at an incredible
discount, but I don't know anyone who has one.  Seems to be a European brand.
The few American reviews I've found have been very positive, and they
advertise a user community to upgrade maps - but I have no idea if that's
really active and useful.
I'm interested in the 930T, for the traffic info it can potentially provide
as
well as a faster processor, memory slot, and more user-friendliness than I
get
with the Garmin.  It sounds like I'd need to link it in with my cell phone
(my
service is Verizon) to obtain traffic info.  It's currently on sale for $450
-
with the additional discount off the sale price, I can get it for $270.
Anyone know about TomTom in general and this unit specifically ?  I'm
particularly interested in the traffic interface, as well as map upgrades.
And why it has such a weird name  ;-)
Thanks!
Karl
You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com
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From arvidj at visi.com  Thu Dec 18 10:05:57 2008
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:05:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
References: <267712342A1D4324B18051EF73151DED@KARL>
Message-ID: <88BD4F60EA0F4705989543285A03D967@behavioral.com>

>From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> ...
>
> Based on this
> quirky unit, the expensive and out-of-date maps, and the nasty treatment 
> in
> the Garmin store in downtown Chicago, I don't see at all how they're the
> leaders.
> ...

My experience is with the Garmin aviation units so I will only comment on 
the
treatment you have received. I've done all of my upgrades and updates via 
the
Garmin web site and have been happy with the service - i.e. not having to 
deal
with people. At the airshows where Garmin has had a display I have been less
than impressed with their marketing droids, but their web service has always 
been
a first rate experience.

Arvid

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 18 10:17:37 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:17:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
References: <267712342A1D4324B18051EF73151DED@KARL>
	<88BD4F60EA0F4705989543285A03D967@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <4825B4207C814CA5B94418AD9249BCF6@KARL>

I'd LOVE to have a 496, or whatever the latest model with the XM weather, 
etc. is.  But that's 10X my budget  :-(

Actually what I like best about the 60C is using it in the air.  I've 
manually input all the little airports for a couple of hundred miles 
around - no Jeppesen database for that model.  I don't really use it for 
navigation very often (sectionals are fine), but having accurate groundspeed 
info is great.  And I get lots of kidding from the guys at fly-ins if I have 
a GPS suction-cupped to the Stearman's windshield.  Just not in keeping with 
that 1940 ambience.

Karl



> My experience is with the Garmin aviation units so I will only comment on 
> the
> treatment you have received. I've done all of my upgrades and updates via 
> the
> Garmin web site and have been happy with the service - i.e. not having to 
> deal
> with people. At the airshows where Garmin has had a display I have been 
> less
> than impressed with their marketing droids, but their web service has 
> always been
> a first rate experience.
>
> Arvid

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 18 10:22:47 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:22:47 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
References: <200812180950739.SM05280@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <708EB043081D4B428B64186B859015ED@KARL>

Garmin gets $80 per year for new US maps, and the maps are in some cases many
years behind in adding new roads.  Is TomTom more expensive or worse ?

The way I can get a discount on a TomTom is through my daughter's roommate -
she works for Navteq, who supplies TomTom's maps.  She says their maps are up
to date, but I haven't seen any actual local maps.  Reviews I've read, though,
say that the TeleAtlas (Garmin uses them) maps are a little better, but I
suspect that's highly dependent upon the specific region.

Karl



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Kahler
  To: Karl Vacek
  Cc: shop-talk
  Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?


  We have a Tom Tom One and for the most part like it.  Be aware that the
newer versions have regional maps and not national maps.  Also map updates
cost a LOT.

  Not sure if I would buy another one, at least not until I had hands on with
others.

  YMMV,

  Brad

  -----Original Message-----
  From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
  Sent 12/18/2008 9:00:24 AM
  To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
  Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?


Surely there are some experienced GPS users on this list.
I've got a Garmin 60C my sister gave me a year ago.  They could never get it
to load maps, and eventually they had them in their cars.  I got it working,
and use it to route myself on inspeection trips, where I need to photograph
the exterior of buildings and land.  It's far better than nothing, but
overall
this unit is OK at best.  It's limited in memory (no slots), has a slooooow
processor, and it handles waypoints and re-routing poorly.  Based on this
quirky unit, the expensive and out-of-date maps, and the nasty treatment in
the Garmin store in downtown Chicago, I don't see at all how they're the
leaders.
I currently have a chance to buy anything TomTom sells at an incredible
discount, but I don't know anyone who has one.  Seems to be a European brand.
The few American reviews I've found have been very positive, and they
advertise a user community to upgrade maps - but I have no idea if that's
really active and useful.
I'm interested in the 930T, for the traffic info it can potentially provide
as
well as a faster processor, memory slot, and more user-friendliness than I
get
with the Garmin.  It sounds like I'd need to link it in with my cell phone
(my
service is Verizon) to obtain traffic info.  It's currently on sale for $450
-
with the additional discount off the sale price, I can get it for $270.
Anyone know about TomTom in general and this unit specifically ?  I'm
particularly interested in the traffic interface, as well as map upgrades.
And why it has such a weird name  ;-)
Thanks!
Karl
You are subscribed as brad.kahler at 141.com
Shop-talk mailing list
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
http://www.team.net/archive

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Dec 18 10:32:22 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:32:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
Message-ID: <200812181732.mBIHWMQo032663@moose.dimebank.com>

It used to be that you bought TeleAtlas maps for coverage and NAVTEQ
for details - TeleAtlas had coverage of most of the US, but there were
lots of mistakes. NAVTEQ had very high accuracy in the top 200 urban/suburban
area, and no coverage in between.

They have been converging, slowly. TA pricing is easier to swallow
than NAVTEQ in most cases, though that has been changing, too.

TA does most of their map updating with software - they do automatic
scanning of geometry from aerial photos. NAVTEQ does it the old-fashioned
way, by driving and taking GPS traces.

It's hard to say which is "better" these days.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Dec 18 10:33:07 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:33:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
In-Reply-To: <200812180950739.SM05280@[166.70.182.40]>
References: <200812180950739.SM05280@[166.70.182.40]>
Message-ID: <00e701c96136$b1e394a0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Based on this
> quirky unit, the expensive and out-of-date maps, and the nasty treatment
> in the Garmin store in downtown Chicago, I don't see at all how they're
> the leaders.

Hard to compare apples to apples in the GPS world.  Garmin makes a lot of
much more expensive GPS units (for aviation, plus surveying and other high
precision applications), which also enjoy considerable success (and make
them a large company); while TomTom is pretty much focused on the much less
expensive "personal navigation" market.  I don't know the relative numbers,
but I wouldn't be at all surprised if TomTom sold more units to the market
you are looking at than Garmin did.  You have to sell an awful lot of $400
personal units to match the profit on one $4000 aviation unit.

But since Garmin also competes (to some extent) with my company, I probably
shouldn't say any more.

> And why it has such a weird name  ;-)

What do you expect from three Dutch geeks <G>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Nk2IQ8hes

Randall

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Dec 18 10:24:04 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:24:04 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
In-Reply-To: <267712342A1D4324B18051EF73151DED@KARL>
Message-ID: <OF9D02BF78.71D4D64C-ON43257523.005828D1-43257523.00606DAF@mail.megageek.com>

Karl, asks about the TomTom,

Karl, I was in the market for a GPS a few years back and I have a buddy 
that is a MAJOR gadget freak.  He actually spent time reading articles and 
testing GPSs.  There was a awesome website that had "head to head" GPS 
tests (but I can't find the link.)

There was something about the TomTom that made it less than desirable. 
(but it did do military MGRS coordinates.)

But the NUVI was the hands down winner.  For easy of use and flexibility, 
it can't be beat.

I bought the 350, and I couldn't be happier.

I've had that Garmin unit from Canada to Mexico to the Baja peninsula and 
it's great!  I now have it with my in Iraq and I was able to DL an iraqi 
map to it!   There are lots of hacks and Garmin supported software addons 
as well.

I don't remember what the TomTom was weak at, but it was a good unit 
otherwise.  The Nuvi was far superior however.

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 18 10:38:11 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:38:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
References: <200812180950739.SM05280@[166.70.182.40]>
	<00e701c96136$b1e394a0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <B2C801C44E444C6CB2BF98179D8C76E8@KARL>

>> And why it has such a weird name  ;-)
>
> What do you expect from three Dutch geeks <G>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Nk2IQ8hes
>
> Randall


OK - I saw Goldmember.  Maybe I don't want a TomTom - it might come with a 
"shkinn" box   =8~0 

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Dec 18 10:38:11 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:38:11 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
In-Reply-To: <00e701c96136$b1e394a0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <OF5AE54D61.40C8E8F7-ON43257523.00610369-43257523.0061B8A7@mail.megageek.com>

One note about GPS, you may want to wait a little bit if you haven't 
bought one yet.

Before I left, I added a Google app to my gps enabled cell phone.  It used 
GoogleMaps and satellite overlays for the map.  It was GREAT!

One of the thing that google has that neither TomTom or Garmin has (unless 
you pay extra) is the live traffic flow.

I'm not 100% sure, but I was told that the data comes from a company that 
monitors the flow of cell phones on highways.  When the cell phones all 
slow down, they know the road is congested.

check it out on your PC.  It was amazing on my cell phone and it helped me 
beat my buddy to NYC one day when we wanted to head out for a show.  (I 
saw the traffic jam on the highway and was able to avoid it.)

(I can't send a link as the internet is REAL slow here and I can't find 
it.)

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.

From cak at dimebank.com  Thu Dec 18 10:51:15 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:51:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
Message-ID: <200812181751.mBIHpFXH008759@moose.dimebank.com>

> I'm not 100% sure, but I was told that the data comes from a company that 
> monitors the flow of cell phones on highways.  When the cell phones all 
> slow down, they know the road is congested.

They use a bunch of techniques. There are loop sensor in some places,
there are "speed cameras", some places use electronic toll tag readers. 
Cell phones are used in some places, but they're the least accurate;
and there are also some historical statistics to fall back on (I 
built the system that generates those - and I'm really glad that it's
not my problem any more).

The downside of the Google Maps approach is that it's useless when
you are out of cell phone range.

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 11:29:52 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:29:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5816.1229619043.3542.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <446890.97799.qm@web54303.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

We bought a TomTom 910 (?) for our roadtrip to Europe.  It was great; we drove 2500 miles without getting lost, or even really understanding all the roadsigns (take that as you will.... ;)
We had only 2 minor glitches: in Italy, it once put us in a .5 mile loop (we figured it out on the 3rd go-around), and in Switzerland, it directed us up a goatpath.  Otherwise, the maps were very accurate.
Back at home, the newer subdivisions are not mapped, although there is now an option to allow you to add your own map data or grab other users data.
We liked it enough that I bought their PDA software to run on my cell phone; it's always with me now.
The big drawback is that these are pretty much made for driving.  They don't seem very friendly for walk-around use, and I can't seem to get gps co-ordinates (easily) out of mine.

From battmain at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 11:37:30 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:37:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
References: <267712342A1D4324B18051EF73151DED@KARL>
	<88BD4F60EA0F4705989543285A03D967@behavioral.com>
	<4825B4207C814CA5B94418AD9249BCF6@KARL>
Message-ID: <367969.98065.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Heh, how about the new 696?   $3295 if you use Sporty's
free shipping.  I haven't included the cost of the updates.  

Back on topic. I don't have any experience with the Tom
Tom, but I will say after using Garmin products, they are
intuitive in *most* of the functions, on any unit that I've
tried. That includes in the airplane too. Mom just bought
a Nuvi 250 and I tried it out. She returned it because she
wanted the FM transmitter. Sensitivity was pretty good
and it worked. Personally, I use my phone with Live search 
and google maps. I still prefer the map detail that I can get
on the phone, in comparison to any of the GPS units.
Sure I can change them to map mode, but they still don't
have the detail I'm used to. I went from a pc/gps  with Streets
and Trips and now using the phone with built in GPS. YMMV.

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com


----- Original Message ----
From: Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com>; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:17:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?

I'd LOVE to have a 496, or whatever the latest model with the XM weather, etc. is.  But that's 10X my budget  :-(
(snip)

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Dec 18 11:41:43 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:41:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
References: <267712342A1D4324B18051EF73151DED@KARL>
Message-ID: <002001c96140$4614a890$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

The Garmin 60 series is a hand held hiking unit.  I almost bought the 60CSx 
a few months ago.  Lots of usefullness for hiking, geocaching, hunting and 
the likes.  Not so usefull for dashboard use on a  car.  While it will do 
it, it will do so rather poorly.  I didn't chose the Garmin in the end 
because you pay dearly for the necessary maping software, and the maping 
resolution isn't so hot compared to the competition.

I did chose the DeLorme PN-20, which is a comparable hiking unit to the 
Garmin 60 series.  No faster than the Garmin, but the maping software is 
vastly superior and it costs a good bit less.  It's worked just fine for me. 
DeLorme has now come out with the PN-40, which is comparatively a rocket.

All of which are navigational dogs for a car zipping down the highway. 
Since you mention TomTom, none of these units compare favorably to a TomTom 
for fast changing map displays, turn by turn navigation and such.  It's an 
apples and oranges thing.  The TomTom isn't going to give you the creeks and 
hiking trails and topography of the handheld units.  Nor is it waterproof. 
So you really need to ask yourself what you want from one of these units.

I've poked around with various dashboard car units on displays.  I'd like to 
like one of the Magelans.  They are fast, the interface is very intuitive. 
But they weirdly drop and add roads as you zoom in and out.  I don't mean 
simply dropping secondary roads as you zoom out, but sporatically droping 
various interstate highways and the like as you go through various levels. 
Friends have Garmin dashboard units, and they seem to work well also.  It 
does seem to me that the simpler units are easier to operate, without 
getting lost in menues.  But turn by turn directions seem like a darn nice 
feature. 

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Thu Dec 18 12:27:20 2008
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:27:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
In-Reply-To: <267712342A1D4324B18051EF73151DED@KARL>
Message-ID: <29199EB171C4489BA5D01B9B98D5DBAD@8sv5f01>

I have a Garmin GPSmap 60C which works quite well for backcountry
navigation. If it has a slow processor, I haven't noticed at walking speed.

For vehicle navigation, I have a Garmin Nuvi 370 and love it.  As noted,
there will be errors in the base map. In my area these seem to consist of
dead-ends rendered as through streets.  When I decline the unit's
instructions it quickly figures out a new route, saying "recalculating" in
resentful tone.

The 370 has a Bluetooth interface for cell phones and plays MP3's and
Audible recorded books. It also has a plug-in receiver for traffic updates.
The service doesn't cover us out here in the sticks but it seems to work
well when I venture out to the big city.

I take the Nuvi to work, sticking it to the windshield of the company car
every morning.  The suction cup mount broke after about a year of this and I
replaced it with the appropriate fitting for the Ram Mount I already had.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Dec 18 16:47:04 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:47:04 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?
In-Reply-To: <OF5AE54D61.40C8E8F7-ON43257523.00610369-43257523.0061B8A7@mail.megageek.com>
References: <00e701c96136$b1e394a0$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<OF5AE54D61.40C8E8F7-ON43257523.00610369-43257523.0061B8A7@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <23FADA76AEF64D138149CC44149563D9@HPPavilion>

Eric,

For a few $$'s a year, my older Garmin 550 Street fighter has traffic
reports, with anticipated delay times, in major metro areas.  Nice feature.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:38 AM
To: 'shop-talk'
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] GPS experiences ?

One note about GPS, you may want to wait a little bit if you haven't bought
one yet.

Before I left, I added a Google app to my gps enabled cell phone.  It used
GoogleMaps and satellite overlays for the map.  It was GREAT!

One of the thing that google has that neither TomTom or Garmin has (unless
you pay extra) is the live traffic flow.

I'm not 100% sure, but I was told that the data comes from a company that
monitors the flow of cell phones on highways.  When the cell phones all slow
down, they know the road is congested.

check it out on your PC.  It was amazing on my cell phone and it helped me
beat my buddy to NYC one day when we wanted to head out for a show.  (I saw
the traffic jam on the highway and was able to avoid it.)

(I can't send a link as the internet is REAL slow here and I can't find
it.)

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Thu Dec 18 18:36:28 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:36:28 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need source for fine thread metric bolt
Message-ID: <494AFA9C.7000400@HorneSystemsTx.com>

I am in need of one M10x1.25x40 grade 8.8 bolt. I fine them on the net, 
but, since I only need one, most suppliers either don't want to mess 
with the order, or
have a minimum order.

Is there any generic type of shop that might have this bolt on hand? 
I've tried hardware suppliers, auto dealers and parts houses and had no 
luck. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Pat

-- 

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Dec 18 19:15:31 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:15:31 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need source for fine thread metric bolt
In-Reply-To: <494AFA9C.7000400@HorneSystemsTx.com>
References: <494AFA9C.7000400@HorneSystemsTx.com>
Message-ID: <002101c9617f$ac0f3b30$275636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I am in need of one M10x1.25x40 grade 8.8 bolt. 

M10x1.25 is an unusual size.  A really good hardware store might sell them
in qty 1 (I'd try Lovelady Hardware in Torrance, CA; their bolt collection
is huge); but since you've already tried that, I suspect you're going to
have to buy a box of them.

MMC will sell you a box of 25 at a reasonable price ($10.50), and they have
no minimum order or packing fee.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/114/3099

But you'd probably have to pay extra to have it by Saturday; since they are
already closed tonight.

Randall

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Fri Dec 19 12:48:21 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:48:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Need source for fine thread metric bolt
Message-ID: <494BFA85.1080600@HorneSystemsTx.com>

I remembered a mom and pop hardware supplier about 30 miles from here. 
They has what I needed. Thanks for everyone who sent suggestions.

Have a great Christmas/ Winter season or whatever you care to celebrate.

Peace,
Pat

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Dec 19 14:56:13 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (fred thomas)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:56:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: XBox 360 $369.99 - GPS Device $89.99
Message-ID: <43332D6E09474DFAB9ACA4A54C778F82@fred8kwiskhcfu>

AllAmericanDirect.com - Your Source for the BEST in Home Entertainment
----- Original Message -----
From: newsletter at allamericandirect.com
To: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:57 AM
Subject: XBox 360 $369.99 - GPS Device $89.99


Don't miss an email- Add newsletter at allamericandirect.com to your email
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Network and DISH Network logos are registered trademarks and/or service marks
of DISH Network L.L.C. and/or its affiliate(s). The DISH Network trademarks
and/or service marks are used by authority of DISH Network L.L.C. and/or its
applicable affiliate(s).

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Dec 19 15:07:06 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:07:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] GoodYear GY120 GPS Device
Message-ID: <A8787A091E3940D0B70A7034C0A8CB22@fred8kwiskhcfu>

http://www.allamericandirect.com/GoodYear_GY120_GPS_Device_p/gy120.htm

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Dec 20 16:46:25 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:46:25 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding wire: price and size
Message-ID: <COL110-W1572A0FE303ADBD8B67011CCF10@phx.gbl>

Is Harbor Freight welding wire any good?  It is considerably cheaper than you
can pick up at Lowe's or Home Depot.  Also, when patching the floor in an old
LBC (Sunbeam Alpine), how big a difference will .024 wire make vs. .030?  We
didn't work with sheet metal in my welding class, so I will be learning as I
go along.  Is the thinner wire more forgiving?

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere
_122008

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Dec 21 16:12:10 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:12:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
Message-ID: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>

My wife would like to enlarge the doorway between our dining room and kitchen.
Unfortunately, the wall in question is load bearing.  The wall runs
perpendicular to the floor joists in the attic and runs the length of the
house.

The house was built in 1907, if that matters.  I wouldn't be removing the wall
completely; the ceilings are 9 feet high and the current door opening is 7' by
about 32"; she'd like to enlarge it to about 9' to match one on the other
wall, so there would be 2' off wall above the opening.  For what its worth,
there is currently a 9' opening in the same wall between the adjacent living
room and the rest of the house.

So, does this sound like something that requires a structural engineer and
needs to be done by a professional, or could I do it myself?  I would
certainly never remove a load bearing wall myself (did that by mistake with a
friend and know the consequences), but the wall would stay; the door way would
just be a whole lot wider.

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere
_122008

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Sun Dec 21 17:10:24 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:10:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <494EDAF0.9090904@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Jim,

You would need to open up the wall above where the new opening will be 
and install a header above the opening to hold up the weight. You would
also need to beef up the studs o each side of the new opening to to 
support the concentrated load. You will also need to strengthen the 
floor/foundation
to support the concentrated load also. You can support the load 
temporally by building a wall next to the one you want to cut out to 
hold up the ceiling and whatever is above it. Then make the wall 
changes, then remove the temporary wall.

I would recommend getting an engineer involved in to tell you what is 
needed for the header, how many 2x4's need to be added to each end of 
the opening, and how to strengthen the floor. Remember, if something 
goes wrong and you didn't have it engineered, your insurance company may 
not take care of the
repairs...not to mention your wife! I had a steel stairway designed by a 
PE who charged me less than $300, including foundation plans. That was 
about 5 years ago. You may also be required to pull a permit and have 
inspections done.

Please let us know what you decide to do.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Jim Stone:
> My wife would like to enlarge the doorway between our dining room and kitchen.
> Unfortunately, the wall in question is load bearing.  The wall runs
> perpendicular to the floor joists in the attic and runs the length of the
> house.
>
> The house was built in 1907, if that matters.  I wouldn't be removing the wall
> completely; the ceilings are 9 feet high and the current door opening is 7' by
> about 32"; she'd like to enlarge it to about 9' to match one on the other
> wall, so there would be 2' off wall above the opening.  For what its worth,
> there is currently a 9' opening in the same wall between the adjacent living
> room and the rest of the house.
>
> So, does this sound like something that requires a structural engineer and
> needs to be done by a professional, or could I do it myself?  I would
> certainly never remove a load bearing wall myself (did that by mistake with a
> friend and know the consequences), but the wall would stay; the door way would
> just be a whole lot wider.
>
> Thanks.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
> http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere
> _122008
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
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>
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>
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> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1850 - Release Date: 12/15/2008 5:04 PM
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems	(512) 797-7501
5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Dec 21 17:22:24 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:22:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081222002224.KKLF24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> So, does this sound like something that requires a structural 
> engineer and needs to be done by a professional, or could I 
> do it myself?  

Personally, I'd just do it.  As Pat says, the new header should be a bit
beefier and it wouldn't hurt to have more support on each side than you do
now.  OTOH, you're only widening the span by about 15% per side so unless it
already seems weak, I'd guess the floor will carry the load.  The total
force on the floor will presumably remain the same, it's just a bit more
concentrated at the supports (but the additional support will help spread
it).

But I'm certainly no expert, so if it goes wrong, don't blame me!

Randall

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Sun Dec 21 18:03:49 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:03:49 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <20081222002224.KKLF24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20081222002224.KKLF24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <494EE775.3030309@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Randall,

I think you mis-read Jim's post. He wants to go from a 32" opening to 
9'. 7' is the height of the opening.
I assume the house is pier and bean, rather than a slab, which I didn't 
state earlier.

"The house was built in 1907, if that matters.  I wouldn't be removing the wall
completely; the ceilings are 9 feet high and the current door opening is 7' by
about 32"; she'd like to enlarge it to about 9' to match one on the other
wall, so there would be 2' off wall above the opening.  For what its worth,
there is currently a 9' opening in the same wall between the adjacent living
room and the rest of the house."


Thusly spake Randall:
>> So, does this sound like something that requires a structural 
>> engineer and needs to be done by a professional, or could I 
>> do it myself?  
>>     
>
> Personally, I'd just do it.  As Pat says, the new header should be a bit
> beefier and it wouldn't hurt to have more support on each side than you do
> now.  OTOH, you're only widening the span by about 15% per side so unless it
> already seems weak, I'd guess the floor will carry the load.  The total
> force on the floor will presumably remain the same, it's just a bit more
> concentrated at the supports (but the additional support will help spread
> it).
>
> But I'm certainly no expert, so if it goes wrong, don't blame me!
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
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>
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> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1850 - Release Date: 12/15/2008 5:04 PM
>
>   

-- 
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5026 FM 2001 Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	www.hornesystemstx.com
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From paul.mele at usermail.com  Sun Dec 21 18:14:26 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:14:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>

I suspect a number of you are car guys.

I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good engine;
it has a GM TH350 behind it.
I've seen the Small block chevy conversions; they seem to be the way to go.
I've found some ref's...

I'm looking for any ideas on the swap, but particularly a good idea for
donor cars 5-10 yrs old that I could use to source the engine, trans and
wiring harness (...no warm beer for me).  The goal of the swap is
reliability and fuel mileage comparable to the wife's 96 caddy deville with
Northstar.  It gets 22 around town and 27 on the cruise. it weighs 4000 lbs;
the 4.6L Northstar is about 305 HP/ 300 ft-lbs if memory serves.

the Jag's V12 is about 285 HP/ 295 ft-lbs, and also weighs around 4000 lbs
with the V12.  I don't see any weight listed for the V12 engine, but I'd
guess it 100-200 lbs heavier than the SBC.

So, who has some ideas on 350 SBC-equipped production cars with ratings
similar to above, and a 4-speed auto/ OD trans?

thanks

PM

From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Sun Dec 21 18:24:53 2008
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:24:53 EST
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
Message-ID: <cc3.37fdff17.36804665@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/21/2008 5:15:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
paul.mele at usermail.com writes:

I  suspect a number of you are car guys.

I've acquired an 87 V12 jag  coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good engine;
it has a GM TH350  behind it.
I've seen the Small block chevy conversions; they seem to be the  way to go.
I've found some ref's...

I'm looking for any ideas on the  swap, but particularly a good idea for
donor cars 5-10 yrs old that I could  use to source the engine, trans and
wiring harness (...no warm beer for  me).  The goal of the swap is
reliability and fuel mileage comparable  to the wife's 96 caddy deville with
Northstar.  It gets 22 around town  and 27 on the cruise. it weighs 4000 lbs;
the 4.6L Northstar is about 305  HP/ 300 ft-lbs if memory serves.

the Jag's V12 is about 285 HP/ 295  ft-lbs, and also weighs around 4000 lbs
with the V12.  I don't see any  weight listed for the V12 engine, but I'd
guess it 100-200 lbs heavier than  the SBC.

So, who has some ideas on 350 SBC-equipped production cars  with ratings
similar to above, and a 4-speed auto/ OD  trans?

thanks

PM



I'd suggest, rather than the SBC, trying the LS-1 type engine (from a  
Corvette) with the aluminium block.  This has been used as a replacement  for a 215 
cid aluminium Buick engine (remember those, they were used in the Land  Rover 
until Ford took over Rover.)  The engine was lighter and shorter than  the 
Buick engine, and that was important, since the engine was located in the  rear 
of a Corvair, replacing the flat-6.  
 
Scotty from Hollyweird
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, 
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)

From jem at milleredp.com  Sun Dec 21 18:29:56 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:29:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>

> I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good engine;
> it has a GM TH350 behind it.

Gonna venture a few opinions though I'm no expert on the subject...I 
thought the Jag V12s got the Turbo 400.

> I'm looking for any ideas on the swap, but particularly a good idea for
> donor cars 5-10 yrs old that I could use to source the engine, trans and
> wiring harness (...no warm beer for me). 

The best choice engine-wise, of course, would be a fairly recent 
LS1/LS2, but I'm not sure how far the kit guys have gotten with the 
LSn-series motors.

> the Jag's V12 is about 285 HP/ 295 ft-lbs, and also weighs around 4000 lbs
> with the V12.  I don't see any weight listed for the V12 engine, but I'd
> guess it 100-200 lbs heavier than the SBC.

No, the Jag V12 is a 60-degree aluminum motor and not all that heavy. 
About as heavy as an iron SBC, I think.  A bit heavier than the LS1/LS2.

> So, who has some ideas on 350 SBC-equipped production cars with ratings
> similar to above, and a 4-speed auto/ OD trans?

Any LS1/LS2 you can find will beat those numbers by quite a lot.

Do you live anywhere that smog legality matters?

John.

From mark at bradakis.com  Sun Dec 21 19:32:00 2008
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:32:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <494EFC20.40301@bradakis.com>

I'm not sure I follow the original message.  Are you going to
make the existing door wider, taller or both?

mjb.

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Dec 21 20:41:19 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:41:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <494EFC20.40301@bradakis.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EFC20.40301@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <COL110-W59BF9FE55346F6D0E259BDCCEF0@phx.gbl>

Just wider.  From 32 inches to 9 feet.

> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:32:00 -0700
> From: mark at bradakis.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
>
> I'm not sure I follow the original message.  Are you going to
> make the existing door wider, taller or both?
>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
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>
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_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
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_122008

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Dec 21 21:19:37 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:19:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0KC900IG4G3674Y0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

In general, such a job involves temporarily supporting the ceiling, 
removing the wall in question, and installing a suitable header and 
support for the ends of that header.  For your specific case, I don't 
think anyone can give you definitive answers without looking at the 
house.  The actual destruction and construction (hopefully in that 
order)  are not necessarily more than a non-beginner can handle.  But 
to evaluate the situation, and spec out the solution, I think you 
want someone experienced and trusted to give you some answers.  I bet 
that if you call a contractor, he would feel comfortable evaluating 
and doing the job based on his experience and "standard" building 
practices in your area.  I doubt he would call in a structural 
engineer unless the authorities require it.  But the key here is 
finding someone whose judgement you trust.  I have seen contractors 
who just fire up the old sawzall without giving a second 
thought.  You don't want one of those guys.  I think step one is to 
find someone you trust to evaluate the job.  Maybe a structural 
engineer, but not necessarily.  Then you can make your decisions from there.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 06:12 PM 12/21/2008, Jim Stone wrote:
>My wife would like to enlarge the doorway between our dining room and kitchen.
>Unfortunately, the wall in question is load bearing.  The wall runs
>perpendicular to the floor joists in the attic and runs the length of the
>house.
>
>The house was built in 1907, if that matters.  I wouldn't be removing the wall
>completely; the ceilings are 9 feet high and the current door opening is 7' by
>about 32"; she'd like to enlarge it to about 9' to match one on the other
>wall, so there would be 2' off wall above the opening.  For what its worth,
>there is currently a 9' opening in the same wall between the adjacent living
>room and the rest of the house.
>
>So, does this sound like something that requires a structural engineer and
>needs to be done by a professional, or could I do it myself?  I would
>certainly never remove a load bearing wall myself (did that by mistake with a
>friend and know the consequences), but the wall would stay; the door way would
>just be a whole lot wider.
>
>Thanks.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
>http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere
>_122008
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as strovato at optonline.net
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>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Dec 21 21:33:10 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:33:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <494EE775.3030309@HorneSystemsTx.com>
Message-ID: <20081222043310.JJHJ7108.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I think you mis-read Jim's post. He wants to go from a 32" 
> opening to 9'. 7' is the height of the opening.

Ah, so I did!  My apologies.

In that case, I agree, best to get professional advice.

Randall

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Dec 21 21:35:18 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:35:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4BB9E9BE-4E20-4E98-AC78-DF5460FD9E55@groupwbench.org>

The rule of thumb for a header supporting a residential span is the  
number of span feet = the height of the header in inches. E.g., a 10'  
span would need a doubled 2 x 10 as a header.

Wood is very strong in compression, so a 2x4 trimmer stud should work  
fine, but there may be localized codes you need to adhere to,  
including getting a structural engineer. And the biggest part of all  
this is to make sure the trimmer studs are weighing on something  
that's rated for the load. A normal floor joist is only rated for a  
live load, which I believe is 40 lbs/sf.  A structural engineer can  
tell you if a simple doubling of the affected floor joists are enough  
to carry the new load, or if you need to do something as drastic as  
installing new piers or lally columns. Think like the weight and  
you'll get a pretty good idea of what you may be up against.

jim

On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Jim Stone wrote:

> My wife would like to enlarge the doorway between our dining room  
> and kitchen.
> Unfortunately, the wall in question is load bearing.  The wall runs
> perpendicular to the floor joists in the attic and runs the length  
> of the
> house.
>
> The house was built in 1907, if that matters.  I wouldn't be  
> removing the wall
> completely; the ceilings are 9 feet high and the current door  
> opening is 7' by
> about 32"; she'd like to enlarge it to about 9' to match one on the  
> other
> wall, so there would be 2' off wall above the opening.  For what its  
> worth,
> there is currently a 9' opening in the same wall between the  
> adjacent living
> room and the rest of the house.
>
> So, does this sound like something that requires a structural  
> engineer and
> needs to be done by a professional, or could I do it myself?  I would
> certainly never remove a load bearing wall myself (did that by  
> mistake with a
> friend and know the consequences), but the wall would stay; the door  
> way would
> just be a whole lot wider.
>
> Thanks.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
> http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere
> _122008
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jamesf at groupwbench.org
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Dec 21 22:01:02 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:01:02 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <20081222002224.KKLF24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<20081222002224.KKLF24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <5135553DFFB14230842F60F7F6D28048@HPPavilion>

Whatever you do, as far as hiring a structural to evaluated your situation
or if you self perform, consider using a steel flitch plate, instead of
2-by's.  I reworked a room, taking out windows and installing two 8 foot
sliding doors, and used a flat bolted up to the header over each door.
Putting the steel flat on edge provides huge strength, if it is secured to a
chunk of wood, with minimal intrusion and a reasonable cost.

Jack
Mechanical Enginerd

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Dec 21 22:03:19 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:03:19 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding wire: price and size
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W1572A0FE303ADBD8B67011CCF10@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W1572A0FE303ADBD8B67011CCF10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CEAD2094D8F34F089958CD1111186F0A@HPPavilion>

Jim,

24 will be easier than 30 to weld sheet metal with.  I found a huge
difference in welding on my 1960 TR3 and my 1980 TR8.  The steel was better
in the 60's and far easier to get goods welds.  It may have been the
thickness, but the '3 welded up like butter and the '8 fought me tooth and
nail.  Go figure.

As far as HF wire, I have no experience with it.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:46 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Welding wire: price and size

Is Harbor Freight welding wire any good?  It is considerably cheaper than
you can pick up at Lowe's or Home Depot.  Also, when patching the floor in
an old LBC (Sunbeam Alpine), how big a difference will .024 wire make vs.
.030?  We didn't work with sheet metal in my welding class, so I will be
learning as I go along.  Is the thinner wire more forgiving?

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
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_122008
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From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Dec 22 04:43:00 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:43:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <002001c9642a$71ab5e30$55021a90$@mele@usermail.com>

Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not married to the SBC, but the cost of the
LS1 may be too much. again, my plan is to buy a (crashed/ugly) donor
car...if it only comes in a 'vette, I don't think it will be cost-effective.

what cars would have the suitable engine(s).

re: smog

we do have testing; the 86 body would only require minimum specs. the newer
donor car would easily meet them, I suspect.

PM


> I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good
engine;
> it has a GM TH350 behind it.

Gonna venture a few opinions though I'm no expert on the subject...I 
thought the Jag V12s got the Turbo 400.

> I'm looking for any ideas on the swap, but particularly a good idea for
> donor cars 5-10 yrs old that I could use to source the engine, trans and
> wiring harness (...no warm beer for me). 

The best choice engine-wise, of course, would be a fairly recent 
LS1/LS2, but I'm not sure how far the kit guys have gotten with the 
LSn-series motors.

> the Jag's V12 is about 285 HP/ 295 ft-lbs, and also weighs around 4000 lbs
> with the V12.  I don't see any weight listed for the V12 engine, but I'd
> guess it 100-200 lbs heavier than the SBC.

No, the Jag V12 is a 60-degree aluminum motor and not all that heavy. 
About as heavy as an iron SBC, I think.  A bit heavier than the LS1/LS2.

> So, who has some ideas on 350 SBC-equipped production cars with ratings
> similar to above, and a 4-speed auto/ OD trans?

Any LS1/LS2 you can find will beat those numbers by quite a lot.

Do you live anywhere that smog legality matters?

John.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Dec 22 08:42:40 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:42:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <002001c9642a$71ab5e30$55021a90$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>
	<002001c9642a$71ab5e30$55021a90$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812221031070.26665@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008, Paul Mele wrote:
> Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not married to the SBC, but the cost of 
> the LS1 may be too much. again, my plan is to buy a (crashed/ugly) donor 
> car...if it only comes in a 'vette, I don't think it will be 
> cost-effective.
>
> what cars would have the suitable engine(s).

I'm no particular expert, so take all this with a good dose of "reserch 
will be required if you actually want to do it"..

You can get LS1's (3rd gen small block) out of lots of stuff I think, but 
the common candidates would be camaros/firebirds & corvettes.

The corvette would need to be a '97+ car, and would have a rear transaxle 
& torque tube setup rather than a conventional transmission.  The 
camaro/firebird would need to be a '98+ and would have a T56 six speed 
conventional trans.

I would think wrecked/junker '98+ camaro/firebirds wouldn't be all that 
horribly expensive.

Another option would be the LT1, or 2nd gen small block.  Again, 
camaros/firebirds would probably be a good donor choice, from '94 to '97 
IIRC.  LT1s are iron head motors, and weigh a little more than the ls1. 
They also use a t56 six speed trans, but there are mounting differences I 
believe.

The same basic engine architecture was used in trucks of the times as 
well.  I'm pretty darned fuzzy on this, but I know some of the common 
upgrades folks make for drag motors for camaro/firebirds are to use the 
iron block versions of the ls1 from the trucks.  If you weren't super 
concerned about weight, my bet is that a truck motor route might save you 
a little money if you knew what you were doing.

Aftermarket support for all this is pretty good I believe... Seems like 
everyone and their brother puts ls1's into anything they'll fit in.  My 
guess is that some searching on the web would find you some examples for 
various cars, though perhaps not that Jag.

If you want to keep it "in the family" (sorta) I've got a complete '89 (?? 
I think) Ford 302 HO out of a Mustang GT that I've been tripping on that 
I'd sell you for $250...  Ran fine when we pulled it in 2002.  You'd need 
a trans & bellhousing (t5) but otherwise I think you'd be ready to go.  If 
you're not near me (Youngstown, OH), then its probably more hassle than 
its worth though.

Mark

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec 22 09:10:13 2008
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:10:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812221031070.26665@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <716679.33561.qm@web82405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Try the JagsThatRun website.  They have published a V8 conversion manual for Jaguars.  I bought their conversion manual for S10 years ago and it was very thorough.  

http://www.jagsthatrun.com/


Randy


--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:

> From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 9:42 AM
> Howdy,
> 
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008, Paul Mele wrote:
> > Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not married to the
> SBC, but the cost of 
> > the LS1 may be too much. again, my plan is to buy a
> (crashed/ugly) donor 
> > car...if it only comes in a 'vette, I don't
> think it will be 
> > cost-effective.
> >
> > what cars would have the suitable engine(s).
> 
> I'm no particular expert, so take all this with a good
> dose of "reserch 
> will be required if you actually want to do it"..
> 
> You can get LS1's (3rd gen small block) out of lots of
> stuff I think, but 
> the common candidates would be camaros/firebirds &
> corvettes.
> 
> The corvette would need to be a '97+ car, and would
> have a rear transaxle 
> & torque tube setup rather than a conventional
> transmission.  The 
> camaro/firebird would need to be a '98+ and would have
> a T56 six speed 
> conventional trans.
> 
> I would think wrecked/junker '98+ camaro/firebirds
> wouldn't be all that 
> horribly expensive.
> 
> Another option would be the LT1, or 2nd gen small block. 
> Again, 
> camaros/firebirds would probably be a good donor choice,
> from '94 to '97 
> IIRC.  LT1s are iron head motors, and weigh a little more
> than the ls1. 
> They also use a t56 six speed trans, but there are mounting
> differences I 
> believe.
> 
> The same basic engine architecture was used in trucks of
> the times as 
> well.  I'm pretty darned fuzzy on this, but I know some
> of the common 
> upgrades folks make for drag motors for camaro/firebirds
> are to use the 
> iron block versions of the ls1 from the trucks.  If you
> weren't super 
> concerned about weight, my bet is that a truck motor route
> might save you 
> a little money if you knew what you were doing.
> 
> Aftermarket support for all this is pretty good I
> believe... Seems like 
> everyone and their brother puts ls1's into anything
> they'll fit in.  My 
> guess is that some searching on the web would find you some
> examples for 
> various cars, though perhaps not that Jag.
> 
> If you want to keep it "in the family" (sorta)
> I've got a complete '89 (?? 
> I think) Ford 302 HO out of a Mustang GT that I've been
> tripping on that 
> I'd sell you for $250...  Ran fine when we pulled it in
> 2002.  You'd need 
> a trans & bellhousing (t5) but otherwise I think
> you'd be ready to go.  If 
> you're not near me (Youngstown, OH), then its probably
> more hassle than 
> its worth though.
> 
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as mistertwo at sbcglobal.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Dec 22 09:27:29 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:27:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812221031070.26665@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20081222162729.WPQV24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> LT1s are iron head motors, and 

I believe they actually came with either iron or aluminum, depending on
application.  My Buick wagon has iron heads, but my understanding is that
the Vette version had aluminum.
http://www.9c1.com/technical/LT1_rebuild/ar99928.htm

Randall

From mikey at b2systems.com  Mon Dec 22 09:33:29 2008
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:33:29 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <494FC159.1060705@b2systems.com>

Paul Mele wrote:
> I suspect a number of you are car guys.
>
> I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good engine;
>   

  I am VERY surprised at the number of responses that suggested swapping 
was a good idea, that V12 is a better motor with proper maintenance and 
if I was looking for a Jag, I would never even give a second thought to 
a butchered one with a V8 in it.  I did look for a Jag a few years ago 
for my wife and the V8 ones were CHEAP compared to the Jag powered ones 
but we were only looking for a Jag powered car.  In the end she got a Alfa.

  Its your car do as you wish but take a look around and see the resale 
values of converted cars versus non-converted, it drops drastically for 
the converts and they never seem to run right, there is a always a 
"issue" somewhere.

    Mike

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Rambour
Bug Writer err...Programmer
      mikey at b2systems.com
****************************************************************
If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car,
then take a look at   http://www.singercars.com/
or the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.dinospider.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 09:40:01 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:40:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 6:43 AM, Paul Mele <paul.mele at usermail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not married to the SBC, but the cost of the
> LS1 may be too much. again, my plan is to buy a (crashed/ugly) donor
> car...if it only comes in a 'vette, I don't think it will be cost-effective.
>
> what cars would have the suitable engine(s).
>
> re: smog
>
> we do have testing; the 86 body would only require minimum specs. the newer
> donor car would easily meet them, I suspect.

You'll want to make sure of that.  Federally, the car must meet the
standards of the newer of car or the replacement engine.  Some states
actually enforce that; it's not an impossible standard to do, but it's
a bit more expensive.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Dec 22 10:30:32 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:30:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$%mele@usermail.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$%mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <0KCA008BLGNTRIK0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

You should check out the jag lovers forum.  The majority of people 
there will sneer and throw virtual over-ripe fruit for even 
considering "lumping" a perfectly good Jaguar.  That's what they call 
it, by the way, when you put a V8 "lump" in there.  However, those 
who are fans of this practice have their very own corner of the forum 
world at:  http://forums.jag-lovers.org/index.php3.  Just click on 
"LUMPS".  There you will meet fellow lumpers and not have to take any abuse.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Dec 22 10:49:22 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:49:22 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812221031070.26665@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>
	<002001c9642a$71ab5e30$55021a90$@mele@usermail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812221031070.26665@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <494FD322.3070609@milleredp.com>

> You can get LS1's (3rd gen small block) out of lots of stuff I think, 
> but the common candidates would be camaros/firebirds & corvettes.

Don't forget all the pickups, especially if ultimate power output (lots 
of 5.3s in the trucks) and weight (they were iron blocks until a couple 
years ago, they're all aluminum now IIRC) aren't critical.

> The camaro/firebird would need to be a '98+ and would have a T56 six 
> speed conventional trans.

Or an automatic, which I think is what he was chasing.  The pickups will 
all be automatics.

> IIRC.  LT1s are iron head motors, and weigh a little more than the ls1. 

I thought the LT1s had iron blocks but aluminum heads.  The old SBC is 
typically about 50lb more than the iron-block truck LSn's, and 100lb 
more than the aluminum-block ones.   The LSn-family engines also tend to 
have really nice pretty compact front-end accessory drives.

> If you want to keep it "in the family" (sorta) I've got a complete '89 
> (?? I think) Ford 302 HO out of a Mustang GT that I've been tripping on 
> that I'd sell you for $250... 

I might buy it if you were a thousand miles closer.

John.

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Mon Dec 22 10:48:38 2008
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:48:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C063C16A-890B-4F59-BC41-14EB57811FE1@trebelhorn.com>

LS1 is a whole family of motors.  Corvettes, yeah.  But there are  
versions of that motor in SUVs and pickups, Camaros... all over.

There's a 5.3 all-alloy version, called "L33", that they put in  
trucks and SUVs.  330hp -- not bad.  And because it's a truck motor,  
it's cheap and plentiful.

Wikipedia has a good page on what the motors are, and what cars/ 
trucks had them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_LS_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Vortec_engine

Matt



On 22 Dec, 2008, at 11:40 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 6:43 AM, Paul Mele <paul.mele at usermail.com>  
> wrote:
>> Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not married to the SBC, but the cost  
>> of the
>> LS1 may be too much. again, my plan is to buy a (crashed/ugly) donor
>> car...if it only comes in a 'vette, I don't think it will be cost- 
>> effective.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Dec 22 11:29:27 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:29:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <494FC159.1060705@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <74296443.481091229970567328.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

that's what i was going to say. I think instead of starting with the idea that you have to swap it out, why not use the motor the car is engineered to use? the v12 isn't a bad motor at all, it just got a bad rep from people that were used to working on sbcs. I know of a couple jag conversions; all of them have more 'issue hassle' than the car would if you just left the oem engine in there. even with the kits and directions, it's a pain to convert, then maintain the conversion. 

and he's not kidding about selling it. once you do that to the car, it's yours for life. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Rambour" <mikey at b2systems.com> 
To: "Paul Mele" <paul.mele at usermail.com> 
Cc: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:33:29 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars. 

Paul Mele wrote: 
> I suspect a number of you are car guys. 
> 
> I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe. I know that the V12 isn't a good engine; 
> 

I am VERY surprised at the number of responses that suggested swapping 
was a good idea, that V12 is a better motor with proper maintenance and 
if I was looking for a Jag, I would never even give a second thought to 
a butchered one with a V8 in it. I did look for a Jag a few years ago 
for my wife and the V8 ones were CHEAP compared to the Jag powered ones 
but we were only looking for a Jag powered car. In the end she got a Alfa. 

Its your car do as you wish but take a look around and see the resale 
values of converted cars versus non-converted, it drops drastically for 
the converts and they never seem to run right, there is a always a 
"issue" somewhere. 

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Dec 22 11:48:02 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:48:02 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <494FC159.1060705@b2systems.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
	<494FC159.1060705@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <494FE0E2.3060000@milleredp.com>

>> I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good 
>> engine;
>>   
>  I am VERY surprised at the number of responses that suggested swapping 
> was a good idea, that V12 is a better motor with proper maintenance and 
> if I was looking for a Jag, I would never even give a second thought to 
> a butchered one with a V8 in it.  

I would say that V12s are unique in character and maybe worth preserving 
on that basis.

Cylinder count aside, the Jag V12 is in no (NO!) way a better engine 
design than an LSn Chevy.  Even the best Jag production heads are a 
bodge with very limited HP capability.

The Jags went through several generations of electronics, etc. and until 
the last couple years they were I think pretty uniformly awful.  The 
last couple years of the V12 in the mid '90s were pretty good.

John.

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Dec 22 11:57:45 2008
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:57:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <494FC159.1060705@b2systems.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<02fe01c963d2$a292a010$e7b7e030$@mele@usermail.com>
	<494FC159.1060705@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <494FE329.2030804@boicey.com>

Mike Rambour wrote:
>  I am VERY surprised at the number of responses that suggested swapping 
> was a good idea

   I was biting my tongue... ;>

>  Its your car do as you wish but take a look around and see the resale 
> values of converted cars versus non-converted, it drops drastically for 
> the converts and they never seem to run right, there is a always a 
> "issue" somewhere.

   I definitely agree with the latter.

   It's somewhat of an illusion to assume that you can just improvise a 
few brackets and such in your garage and magically produce something 
that is better and more reliable than the original Jag design.

   I have seen too many "conversions" that seem ok from the surface but 
once you get the owner talking candidly, imperfections always appear.

   Besides, why would you want a Jag that isn't a Jag?

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Dec 22 18:15:30 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:15:30 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
In-Reply-To: <5135553DFFB14230842F60F7F6D28048@HPPavilion>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<20081222002224.KKLF24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall> 
	<5135553DFFB14230842F60F7F6D28048@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <COL110-W445F80CC6C4677A34B91D8CCEC0@phx.gbl>

Thanks everyone.  I got the answer I expected, which is fine.  It would have
been nice to hear that I could JFDI (just do it), but I didn't think that
would be the case.  I have a contractor I trust and will start with him.
Depending on what he says, I may or may not proceed.  A clear answer may be
quite a while away.  I would have started sooner if this was a simple DIY
project, but needing to involve professionals may put it off by many months.

Jim

> From: jibjib at att.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:01:02 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Load bearing walls
>
> Whatever you do, as far as hiring a structural to evaluated your situation
> or if you self perform, consider using a steel flitch plate, instead of
> 2-by's.  I reworked a room, taking out windows and installing two 8 foot
> sliding doors, and used a flat bolted up to the header over each door.
> Putting the steel flat on edge provides huge strength, if it is secured to
a
> chunk of wood, with minimal intrusion and a reasonable cost.
>
> Jack
> Mechanical Enginerd
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Its the same Hotmail.. If by same you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_12
2008

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Dec 22 19:53:28 2008
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:53:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>

I'll chime in on the side of the purists.  If I acquired a Jaguar V12
it would be a Jaguar V12.

mjb.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Dec 22 20:31:58 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:31:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
	<495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
> I'll chime in on the side of the purists.  If I acquired a Jaguar V12
> it would be a Jaguar V12.

Yeah, I'd be on that side of the fence as well.

If you want to swap a motor, do it with a 240SX or a 280Z or M3, or 
something like that.

If you're wanting to swap a motor for anything other than performance 
reasons, I'd also take a hard 2nd look.

Mark

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 21:26:37 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:26:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
	<495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0812222026o32d7c701pc752e383ec5e20f3@mail.gmail.com>

Normally I am a purist.  In most cases, I'd say if you want an SBC,
buy a car that came with an SBC and drive that.  But the 80's vintage
Jag V12 is where I draw the line.  I helped a friend repair his after
an engine fire that was caused by faulty electronics ( I'm not really
sure if it was the Lucas bits of the Bosch bits that went south, there
wasn't much left).  Only to have the thing spin a main on him less
than a month after we got it back on the road.  I hate to say bad
things about the company that brought us the 4.2 L Series II E-Type,
but I hate the 5.3 HE motor.   So if you want SBC or LS1, I'd say go
for it.

My personal preference is the LS1, as it is lighter and makes better
power on the useless gasoline available these days.  My favorite is
the 350HP version that was available on the RAM AIR Firebirds and
Camaros.   Harder to come by, but you could always clone one.  Might
not meet the cost cirteria, but this is an area where you can start
basic and add go-fast parts later if you decide you want to.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
>>
>> I'll chime in on the side of the purists.  If I acquired a Jaguar V12
>> it would be a Jaguar V12.
>
> Yeah, I'd be on that side of the fence as well.
>
> If you want to swap a motor, do it with a 240SX or a 280Z or M3, or
> something like that.
>
> If you're wanting to swap a motor for anything other than performance
> reasons, I'd also take a hard 2nd look.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Dec 22 23:42:32 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:42:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
	<495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <49508858.3070904@milleredp.com>

> Yeah, I'd be on that side of the fence as well.
> 
> If you want to swap a motor, do it with a 240SX or a 280Z or M3, or 
> something like that.

Personally, I think a well-done GM LS2/LS3 installation would improve 
just about any car.

Not to say that all Jag swaps are well-done or that - even with a kit - 
an engine swap is necessarily going to be the smoothest of projects.

> If you're wanting to swap a motor for anything other than performance 
> reasons, I'd also take a hard 2nd look.

I guess I look at it this way: you don't do an engine swap like that 
with the expectation that in six weeks of evenings you'll have a 
perfectly sorted car, or because you think you're 'improving' it.   It 
happens, but it's not the rule.

You do it because you want to.  And you do it knowing you might be 
ironing out the cruise control or the transmission linkage or the 
exhaust clearance to the steering box for the next two years.  Hell, 
I've got a '65 Mustang with a 302 up on the lift right now with a set of 
beautifully made and far from cheap JBA headers that are supposed to be 
a bolt-in for that car, one of the most common project car combinations 
on Planet Earth, and those damn headers are less than 1/4in from 
EVERYTHING even with the taller '66 engine mounts.  At least I didn't 
pay anything for them (they're part of the pile of lightly-rusted parts 
that were with the car when I got the whole thing for $0, about $20K 
ago.)  Probably just sell 'em to someone with a '67-70 and buy some 
Hedmans or some such.

Now, as for the Jag V12 side of things - there's Jags I'd happily cut 
into and Jags I wouldn't.  One of the very few mid-'90s X300 XJ12s would 
be a rather nice car to have, and the old pre-bumper '69-72 cars are 
probably worth the pain of keeping a twelve-holer (though my thoughts 
lean toward a 7-liter with May heads and a decent aftermarket EFI.)  But 
most '80s Jags are...uh...junk.

John.

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Dec 23 07:18:33 2008
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:18:33 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
	<495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4950F339.3040201@landform.co.uk>

Mark Andy wrote:
>
> If you want to swap a motor, do it with a 240SX or a 280Z or M3, or 
> something like that.
>
> If you're wanting to swap a motor for anything other than performance 
> reasons, I'd also take a hard 2nd look.
>
Er, what motor would you put in an M3 to give a performance 
improvement?  : ^ )

Nick

From whesr at iglou.com  Tue Dec 23 11:43:12 2008
From: whesr at iglou.com (Bill Engle Sr)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:43:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl><494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>
	<-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid><2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com><495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c9652e$4f05a200$0400a8c0@MDBC.local>

None of those need engine transplants.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mark Andy
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:32 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.

Howdy,

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
> I'll chime in on the side of the purists.  If I acquired a Jaguar V12
> it would be a Jaguar V12.

Yeah, I'd be on that side of the fence as well.

If you want to swap a motor, do it with a 240SX or a 280Z or M3, or 
something like that.

If you're wanting to swap a motor for anything other than performance 
reasons, I'd also take a hard 2nd look.

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Dec 23 12:16:08 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:16:08 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <001a01c9652e$4f05a200$0400a8c0@MDBC.local>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl><494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>
	<-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid><2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com><495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<001a01c9652e$4f05a200$0400a8c0@MDBC.local>
Message-ID: <495138F8.7000403@milleredp.com>

Bill Engle Sr wrote:
> None of those need engine transplants.
<snip>
> If you want to swap a motor, do it with a 240SX or a 280Z or M3, or 
> something like that.

The big four in the 240SX is not a very nice piece, and the LS1-family 
motors seem to fit very nicely in the things.   LS1-into-S14 swaps are 
common (and there's quite a cottage industry in LS1-into-RX7 too, it 
fits really well, friend just picked up a gen2 RX7 turbo roller for an 
SBF-into-RX7 swap for near-nothing...)

The big inline-six in the 280Z is a nice period piece, but it gets 
awfully high-strung if you're trying to dig serious HP out.  There's 
lots of swaps into the old Zs out there, and it's a pretty car, but it's 
a pretty weak structure by present-day standards.

M3 engine swaps are pretty common and I think getting more so as E36M3s 
age and need engine work; typically it's putting an S50US/S52US (240HP 
US E36M3) S50/S52 (320HP Euro E36M3) or S54 (340HP E46M3) small six into 
an E30M3, or an S52/S54 into a US E36M3 to replace the S50US/S52US. 
There's a few LS1 swaps out there, it fits and it weighs no more than 
the six, but the exhaust, etc. clearances are a tad fussy.

John.

From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 13:00:12 2008
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:00:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <002001c9642a$71ab5e30$55021a90$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <3BEA33E1404A40E7A739A455D9776FBC@LivingRoomPC>

Paul,

Not sure where you are, but if in California or states with similar rules,
you must swap an engine in that is the same or newer model year of your
vehicle (so you've got the right idea there) and it must have "all" the
required emissions equipment swapped with it and/or hooked up to your
existing emissions equipment.  You have to get an inspection and approval
letter from the appropriate agency for the swap and show that at your
annual/biannual inspection.  You must pass the tailpipe test, but that alone
is not sufficient to comply.  Before you finalize your choice, you may want
to talk with the inspection folks to see what all they'll require.


Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at gmail.com
Columbus, IN
1966 TR-4A IRS
1973 MG Midget
1980 TR-8
2003 Honda ST1300



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Paul Mele
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 6:43 AM
To: 'John Miller'; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.


Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not married to the SBC, but the cost of the
LS1 may be too much. again, my plan is to buy a (crashed/ugly) donor
car...if it only comes in a 'vette, I don't think it will be cost-effective.

what cars would have the suitable engine(s).

re: smog

we do have testing; the 86 body would only require minimum specs. the newer
donor car would easily meet them, I suspect.

PM


> I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good
engine;
> it has a GM TH350 behind it.

Gonna venture a few opinions though I'm no expert on the subject...I
thought the Jag V12s got the Turbo 400.

> I'm looking for any ideas on the swap, but particularly a good idea
> for donor cars 5-10 yrs old that I could use to source the engine,
> trans and wiring harness (...no warm beer for me).

The best choice engine-wise, of course, would be a fairly recent
LS1/LS2, but I'm not sure how far the kit guys have gotten with the
LSn-series motors.

> the Jag's V12 is about 285 HP/ 295 ft-lbs, and also weighs around 4000
> lbs with the V12.  I don't see any weight listed for the V12 engine,
> but I'd guess it 100-200 lbs heavier than the SBC.

No, the Jag V12 is a 60-degree aluminum motor and not all that heavy.
About as heavy as an iron SBC, I think.  A bit heavier than the LS1/LS2.

> So, who has some ideas on 350 SBC-equipped production cars with
> ratings similar to above, and a 4-speed auto/ OD trans?

Any LS1/LS2 you can find will beat those numbers by quite a lot.

Do you live anywhere that smog legality matters?

John.
You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Dec 23 14:46:38 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:46:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <495138F8.7000403@milleredp.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl><494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com>
	<-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid><2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com><495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<001a01c9652e$4f05a200$0400a8c0@MDBC.local>
	<495138F8.7000403@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <49515C3E.2020705@xxiii.com>

John Miller wrote:
> M3 engine swaps are pretty common and I think getting more so as E36M3s 
> age and need engine work; typically it's putting an S50US/S52US (240HP 
> US E36M3) S50/S52 (320HP Euro E36M3) or S54 (340HP E46M3) small six into 

Getting way off topic, but I couldn't resist reminiscing on one of the 
the more interesting swaps I was on the sidelines for.

Had a couple friends that were BMW fanatics.  1st guy had an E36 M3; 
bought a Euro-spec 6-speed off ebay and installed it.  So then there's a 
5-speed tranny collecting dust in his kitchen.  His friend gets the 
bright idea that his family car, an E36 325 or something would be a lot 
cooler with a manual transmission in it. (can't argue there!)

So they procure all the parts, and in a hot June day in South Carolina, 
in a little tiny apartment complex single stall garage, set about doing 
it.  I only fetched tools and beer (and drank beer.)  But in something 
like 14 hours they had swapped the transmission, driveshaft, rear end, 
drive axles, ECU. installed a clutch pedal, master cylinder, swapped 
interior trim and spliced wiring harnesses.  Finished at about 2am, and 
we drove it to breakfast the next morning  :)

An interesting lesson -- many BMWs have General Motors automatic 
trannies in them!

   -Wayne

From whesr at iglou.com  Tue Dec 23 14:49:00 2008
From: whesr at iglou.com (Bill Engle Sr)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:49:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <49515C3E.2020705@xxiii.com>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl><494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com><-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid><2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com><495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net><001a01c9652e$4f05a200$0400a8c0@MDBC.local><495138F8.7000403@milleredp.com>
	<49515C3E.2020705@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <000501c96548$44316bb0$0400a8c0@MDBC.local>

Ferrari uses GM automaic transmissions or did for many years.

Bill

John Miller wrote:
> M3 engine swaps are pretty common and I think getting more so as E36M3s 
> age and need engine work; typically it's putting an S50US/S52US (240HP 
> US E36M3) S50/S52 (320HP Euro E36M3) or S54 (340HP E46M3) small six into 

Getting way off topic, but I couldn't resist reminiscing on one of the 
the more interesting swaps I was on the sidelines for.

Had a couple friends that were BMW fanatics.  1st guy had an E36 M3; 
bought a Euro-spec 6-speed off ebay and installed it.  So then there's a 
5-speed tranny collecting dust in his kitchen.  His friend gets the 
bright idea that his family car, an E36 325 or something would be a lot 
cooler with a manual transmission in it. (can't argue there!)

So they procure all the parts, and in a hot June day in South Carolina, 
in a little tiny apartment complex single stall garage, set about doing 
it.  I only fetched tools and beer (and drank beer.)  But in something 
like 14 hours they had swapped the transmission, driveshaft, rear end, 
drive axles, ECU. installed a clutch pedal, master cylinder, swapped 
interior trim and spliced wiring harnesses.  Finished at about 2am, and 
we drove it to breakfast the next morning  :)

An interesting lesson -- many BMWs have General Motors automatic 
trannies in them!

From shiples at comcast.net  Tue Dec 23 17:11:44 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:11:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0812222026o32d7c701pc752e383ec5e20f3@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
	<495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081223155115.0307e2a8@mail.comcast.net>

At 10:26 PM 12/22/2008 -0600, John Innis wrote:
>  I hate to say bad
>things about the company that brought us the 4.2 L Series II E-Type,
>but I hate the 5.3 HE motor.

Uh, that's the ugly one with emissions controls that they ruined when
they had to meet federal standards.  I think most Jaguar enthusiasts
prefer the Series l.

Although I'd like to think I'm a puri$t, sometimes it isn't worth it.  If
someone is trying to get another couple of years out of a nice Jag
by swapping engines it's been done before and it'll be done a few
more times.  But it's not a Jaguar anymore.

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Tue Dec 23 18:50:24 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:50:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
References: <3BEA33E1404A40E7A739A455D9776FBC@LivingRoomPC>
Message-ID: <DF077C81367740588A3C2CE482F16328@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Now if you should register as a =Antique or  Historical"= you will by-pass 
these regulations !!!!   "FT"
===========================================================================================================
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben Zwissler" <bjzwissler at gmail.com>
To: "'Paul Mele'" <paul.mele at usermail.com>; "'John Miller'" 
<jem at milleredp.com>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.


> Paul,
>
> Not sure where you are, but if in California or states with similar rules,
> you must swap an engine in that is the same or newer model year of your
> vehicle (so you've got the right idea there) and it must have "all" the
> required emissions equipment swapped with it and/or hooked up to your
> existing emissions equipment.  You have to get an inspection and approval
> letter from the appropriate agency for the swap and show that at your
> annual/biannual inspection.  You must pass the tailpipe test, but that 
> alone
> is not sufficient to comply.  Before you finalize your choice, you may 
> want
> to talk with the inspection folks to see what all they'll require.
>
>
> Ben Zwissler
> bjzwissler at gmail.com
> Columbus, IN
> 1966 TR-4A IRS
> 1973 MG Midget
> 1980 TR-8
> 2003 Honda ST1300
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Paul Mele
> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 6:43 AM
> To: 'John Miller'; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
>
>
> Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not married to the SBC, but the cost of the
> LS1 may be too much. again, my plan is to buy a (crashed/ugly) donor
> car...if it only comes in a 'vette, I don't think it will be 
> cost-effective.
>
> what cars would have the suitable engine(s).
>
> re: smog
>
> we do have testing; the 86 body would only require minimum specs. the 
> newer
> donor car would easily meet them, I suspect.
>
> PM
>
>
>> I've acquired an 87 V12 jag coupe.  I know that the V12 isn't a good
> engine;
>> it has a GM TH350 behind it.
>
> Gonna venture a few opinions though I'm no expert on the subject...I
> thought the Jag V12s got the Turbo 400.
>
>> I'm looking for any ideas on the swap, but particularly a good idea
>> for donor cars 5-10 yrs old that I could use to source the engine,
>> trans and wiring harness (...no warm beer for me).
>
> The best choice engine-wise, of course, would be a fairly recent
> LS1/LS2, but I'm not sure how far the kit guys have gotten with the
> LSn-series motors.
>
>> the Jag's V12 is about 285 HP/ 295 ft-lbs, and also weighs around 4000
>> lbs with the V12.  I don't see any weight listed for the V12 engine,
>> but I'd guess it 100-200 lbs heavier than the SBC.
>
> No, the Jag V12 is a 60-degree aluminum motor and not all that heavy.
> About as heavy as an iron SBC, I think.  A bit heavier than the LS1/LS2.
>
>> So, who has some ideas on 350 SBC-equipped production cars with
>> ratings similar to above, and a 4-speed auto/ OD trans?
>
> Any LS1/LS2 you can find will beat those numbers by quite a lot.
>
> Do you live anywhere that smog legality matters?
>
> John.
> You are subscribed as bjzwissler at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From jem at milleredp.com  Tue Dec 23 22:05:43 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:05:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <DF077C81367740588A3C2CE482F16328@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <3BEA33E1404A40E7A739A455D9776FBC@LivingRoomPC>
	<DF077C81367740588A3C2CE482F16328@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <4951C327.20904@milleredp.com>

FRED E THOMAS wrote:
> Now if you should register as a =Antique or  Historical"= you will 
> by-pass these regulations !!!!   "FT"

By California standards anything 1976 or newer will be subject to 
biennial smog checks no matter what unless you live in a rural area 
that's smog-on-change-of-ownership-only.

1975 and earlier models are exempt from periodic smog testing, which in 
my book for California purposes makes the 1975-and-earlier examples of 
any particular vehicle worth infinitely more than basically identical 
later ones, even if the later vehicle was of a better spec when built 
(e.g. E12 BMW 5er, VW Rabbit, etc.)

John.

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Wed Dec 24 00:29:23 2008
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:29:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine swaps: keeping the jag a jag
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1230058802.14457.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.11.1230058802.14457.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <560C521E14DC4F76B9C637B6B82E0744@OFFICEPC>

One important thing: if you do the sbc swap be sure to get one of those
plastic oil spill replicas to toss under the car so purists will think
there's still a british motor under the hood.

Mark Miller
Prior owner of an MG midget, Nash mini-metro (Austin), and a Jensen Healey
(not all at the same time)

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Dec 24 10:17:19 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:17:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <4950F339.3040201@landform.co.uk>
References: <COL110-W7459A48B685EC779223E12CCEE0@phx.gbl>
	<494EED94.4060202@milleredp.com> <-7230899715683478714@unknownmsgid>
	<2400a5d40812220840y3cf13946w46d7f34abf80f11a@mail.gmail.com>
	<495052A8.8060207@bradakis.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812222229530.4385@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<4950F339.3040201@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812241216590.29226@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008, nick brearley wrote:
> Er, what motor would you put in an M3 to give a performance improvement?  : ^ 
> )

ls1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrbz8RXiDF4

Mark

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Dec 24 10:22:48 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:22:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
Message-ID: <200812241722.mBOHMmWK021545@moose.dimebank.com>

> Er, what motor would you put in an M3 to give a performance improvement? 

A later M3 motor!

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 20:33:13 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:33:13 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <DF077C81367740588A3C2CE482F16328@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <3BEA33E1404A40E7A739A455D9776FBC@LivingRoomPC>
	<DF077C81367740588A3C2CE482F16328@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812241933t3c696364m504f4ad7d68e8088@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 7:50 PM, FRED E THOMAS
<frede.thomas2 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Now if you should register as a =Antique or  Historical"= you will by-pass
> these regulations !!!!   "FT"
>

No.  Federal law requires that if you put an engine from a vehicle
with emissions controls into a vehicle with no emissions controls, you
must meet the standards that applied to the vehicle that
provided the engine.  You stick an engineform a 2008 vette in a Model
T, you have to meet 2008 standards.

Now, it's up to the states to enforce this, and in many states, you
can get away with this, but it's still not legal, and you run the risk
of the state deciding that they want to enforce the existing
regulations.  Best case, you end up with a car you're not allowed to
run.  Worst case, they shred it, and send you to jail.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 21:05:27 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:05:27 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40812241933t3c696364m504f4ad7d68e8088@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3BEA33E1404A40E7A739A455D9776FBC@LivingRoomPC>
	<DF077C81367740588A3C2CE482F16328@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<2400a5d40812241933t3c696364m504f4ad7d68e8088@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0812242005r75db8f98g6236023b92786bd8@mail.gmail.com>

How does this law apply to crate motors or purpose built engines that
did not come from any "donor" car?

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 9:33 PM, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 7:50 PM, FRED E THOMAS
> <frede.thomas2 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Now if you should register as a =Antique or  Historical"= you will by-pass
>> these regulations !!!!   "FT"
>>
>
> No.  Federal law requires that if you put an engine from a vehicle
> with emissions controls into a vehicle with no emissions controls, you
> must meet the standards that applied to the vehicle that
> provided the engine.  You stick an engineform a 2008 vette in a Model
> T, you have to meet 2008 standards.
>
> Now, it's up to the states to enforce this, and in many states, you
> can get away with this, but it's still not legal, and you run the risk
> of the state deciding that they want to enforce the existing
> regulations.  Best case, you end up with a car you're not allowed to
> run.  Worst case, they shred it, and send you to jail.
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Dec 24 22:09:24 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:09:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0812242005r75db8f98g6236023b92786bd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081225050923.XCEN7108.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> How does this law apply to crate motors or purpose built 
> engines that did not come from any "donor" car?

It gets complicated.  A "new" engine would need to meet current emission
standards for it's date of manufacture.  But a replacement for the same
engine already in the car would only need to meet the standards already
applied to the car.  So, at least as I understand it, you could start by
swapping in a 60's vintage SBC from the junk yard, get the swap approved,
then drop in a crate motor of the same specifications and be legal.  The
tricky part is what counts as a "replacement".

Last time I heard of someone getting in trouble for an illegal engine swap,
they only paid a fine of $10,000 and of course were not allowed to register
the car with the swapped engine.  But that was a few years ago, so the fines
may have gone up.  And I have no doubt it depends on circumstances, etc.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 10:56:26 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:56:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Engine swaps; 350 SBC donor cars.
In-Reply-To: <20081225050923.XCEN7108.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <abb8688a0812242005r75db8f98g6236023b92786bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081225050923.XCEN7108.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40812250956v7a870773qd7d3b5cff3ec6bd8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> How does this law apply to crate motors or purpose built
>> engines that did not come from any "donor" car?
>
> It gets complicated.  A "new" engine would need to meet current emission
> standards for it's date of manufacture.  But a replacement for the same
> engine already in the car would only need to meet the standards already
> applied to the car.  So, at least as I understand it, you could start by
> swapping in a 60's vintage SBC from the junk yard, get the swap approved,
> then drop in a crate motor of the same specifications and be legal.  The
> tricky part is what counts as a "replacement".
>

Well, it's a lot more complicated then that. The law makes it a
violation to try and avoid it by doing things like that.  So if you
start the process intending to end up with a modern engine in your old
vehicle, you have to meet the current standards.  If you end up with a
modern replacement engine becuase the original breaks, you don't.
It's not a very well written law, but there are all sorts of corner
cases, which are hard to get right.  (And the reality is that no one
really cares, as long as you're not in the business of selling antique
vehicles with modern features.)


> Last time I heard of someone getting in trouble for an illegal engine swap,
> they only paid a fine of $10,000 and of course were not allowed to register
> the car with the swapped engine.  But that was a few years ago, so the fines
> may have gone up.  And I have no doubt it depends on circumstances, etc.
>

A fine is the most common penality, but seizure isn't uncommon.
Criminal sanctions (jail time) is unusual, and usually reserved for
people who are doing things on a big scale.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Dec 26 07:41:43 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:41:43 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet
Message-ID: <122620081441.16511.4954ED27000479A50000407F22165486869D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

I suppose I could lie and say this toaster was in my shop...
If this is too OT for you, please reply privately.

toasters, under-cabinet 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have a Black & Decker Spacemaker Optima Horizontal Toaster in our kitchen. We like it because it is mounted to the bottom of the upper cabinets and does not take up any counter-top space.

It's dying. We'd like to get another one, but I think it was taken off the market. Apparently, people who can't read and follow installation directions were cleverly devising ways to catch their kitchens on fire.

Does anyone else make a toaster that mounts to the bottom of upper cabinets?

Alternatively, if we are stuck with buying a toaster that sits on the counter, what's a good one? We don't mind spending some money for something that will work well and last. Cheap crap need not apply.

We would want it to have the capacity to toast split bagels as well as sliced bread. A stay-cool outside would be nice, too, so "clumsy" here does not toast a bread-wrapper some sleepy morning.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Dec 26 09:23:05 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:23:05 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet
In-Reply-To: <122620081441.16511.4954ED27000479A50000407F22165486869D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20081226162306.MGWA13015.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Does anyone else make a toaster that mounts to the bottom of 
> upper cabinets?

Not that I could find with Google.  B&D supposedly had plans to offer a next
generation after the recall of the first generation; but it doesn't seem to
be available.

> Alternatively, if we are stuck with buying a toaster that 
> sits on the counter, what's a good one?

I've been happy with the T-Fal I bought 6-7 years ago; but I wouldn't say we
use it heavily.  Has extra-wide slots for bagels and such (plus a special
button for bagels).  SS case does get warm, but not enough to melt a bread
wrapper, at least after only one bagel.  I suppose it might, if you did a
lot of bagels in a row.  (I gave up bagels not long after buying it, but
still use the bagel cycle to toast my multi-grain bread.)

Randall

From 57healey at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 09:53:07 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:53:07 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shopsmith
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0812260853j497b1993j85d8f41283f38811@mail.gmail.com>

I found 1960 Shopsmith for sale w/standard attachments and manuals for
$125.  I haven't gone to look at it yet, but it is allegedly in good
shape.  I am not into woodwork outside of the occasional project, but
I can get rid of my tablesaw and have the ability to do more if I ever
get the desire.  Any experiences or reccomendations.

Thanks
Patton

-- 
Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."
1977 Newport '28

From shochschild at att.net  Fri Dec 26 10:44:56 2008
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:44:56 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet
In-Reply-To: <20081226162306.MGWA13015.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20081226162306.MGWA13015.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <49551818.6000800@att.net>

I want the toaster that poaches an egg while it toasts the toast:
www.amazon.com/Back-Basics-TEM500-Muffin-2-Slice/dp/B000B18P96/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I9VVQLC0T4EDA&colid=3BH7KSY6UU44P



Randall wrote:
>> Does anyone else make a toaster that mounts to the bottom of 
>> upper cabinets?
>>     
>
> Not that I could find with Google.  B&D supposedly had plans to offer a next
> generation after the recall of the first generation; but it doesn't seem to
> be available.
>
>   
>> Alternatively, if we are stuck with buying a toaster that 
>> sits on the counter, what's a good one?
>>     
>
> I've been happy with the T-Fal I bought 6-7 years ago; but I wouldn't say we
> use it heavily.  Has extra-wide slots for bagels and such (plus a special
> button for bagels).  SS case does get warm, but not enough to melt a bread
> wrapper, at least after only one bagel.  I suppose it might, if you did a
> lot of bagels in a row.  (I gave up bagels not long after buying it, but
> still use the bagel cycle to toast my multi-grain bread.)
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Dec 26 11:08:26 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:08:26 +0300
Subject: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet
In-Reply-To: <49551818.6000800@att.net>
Message-ID: <OF4FB5A2CE.A9A06A0F-ON4325752B.006447E5-4325752B.00648252@mail.megageek.com>

I love my under cabinet toaster.  The one I have is from the 80's!  It 
still works great (but it doesn't take bagels.)  It's right next to my 
matching, under cabinet coffee maker (also from the 80's.)  Both units are 
first generation Black and Deckers, and have moved to three different 
houses with me!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"shochschild at att.net" <shochschild at att.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/26/2008 08:34 PM
Please respond to
shochschild at att.net


To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet






I want the toaster that poaches an egg while it toasts the toast:
www.amazon.com/Back-Basics-TEM500-Muffin-2-Slice/dp/B000B18P96/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I9VVQLC0T4EDA&colid=3BH7KSY6UU44P



Randall wrote:
>> Does anyone else make a toaster that mounts to the bottom of 
>> upper cabinets?
>> 
>
> Not that I could find with Google.  B&D supposedly had plans to offer a 
next
> generation after the recall of the first generation; but it doesn't seem 
to
> be available.
>
> 
>> Alternatively, if we are stuck with buying a toaster that 
>> sits on the counter, what's a good one?
>> 
>
> I've been happy with the T-Fal I bought 6-7 years ago; but I wouldn't 
say we
> use it heavily.  Has extra-wide slots for bagels and such (plus a 
special
> button for bagels).  SS case does get warm, but not enough to melt a 
bread
> wrapper, at least after only one bagel.  I suppose it might, if you did 
a
> lot of bagels in a row.  (I gave up bagels not long after buying it, but
> still use the bagel cycle to toast my multi-grain bread.)
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Dec 26 13:07:34 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:07:34 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <743b1e2f0812260853j497b1993j85d8f41283f38811@mail.gmail.com>
References: <743b1e2f0812260853j497b1993j85d8f41283f38811@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49553986.1070906@verizon.net>

My two cents worth-

Every time I look at Craigslist there seems to be a couple of Shopsmiths 
for sale for a few hundred bucks.  I understand they haven't changed 
much since the 60s, and are well made machines.  New ones are advertised 
on the Shopsmith site for around $3000.  That tells me a lot right there.

My problem with the Shopsmith is the same as with any combination tool, 
like the 3 in 1 metalworking lathe/mill/drill presses (which I DID have 
once).  They do a lot of things, but not very well, and are always set 
up for what you don't need to do at the time, so you spend a lot of time 
changing the setup.  In the meantime, any settings you may have had for 
the prior setup are lost.   I understand another problem with the 
Shopsmith in particular is that they use a lot of proprietary parts and 
attachments that you have to buy from the factory.  If Shopsmith goes 
out of business (which wouldn't surprise me), then you'll be stuck 
looking on Ebay for parts.

A lot of people have made some very nice stuff using a Shopsmith, but I 
suspect there are a whole lot of them gathering dust because they are a 
PITA to set up and use.  I suppose if you have a very limited budget and 
can find one cheap enough, and are really strapped for space, they would 
fill a need, but I prefer individual tools that do one thing well.

Dave C

Patton Dickson wrote:
> I found 1960 Shopsmith for sale w/standard attachments and manuals for
> $125.  I haven't gone to look at it yet, but it is allegedly in good
> shape.  I am not into woodwork outside of the occasional project, but
> I can get rid of my tablesaw and have the ability to do more if I ever
> get the desire.  Any experiences or reccomendations.
>
> Thanks
> Patton

From 57healey at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 13:52:24 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:52:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <49553986.1070906@verizon.net>
References: <743b1e2f0812260853j497b1993j85d8f41283f38811@mail.gmail.com>
	<49553986.1070906@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0812261252v14042f48k6a15d41d1cc0daaf@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Dave,  I did a little research and the model he has doesn't
have parts available any more (only Mk V's).  I didn't want to buy
something that I couldn't get the parts for, regardless if it was a
good deal so I passed.

Space is by far the attraction for me.  The garage is 20x20 and the
Healey and it's bits and pieces will always get the bulk of the
limited space.  Unfortunately I can't expand up or out, and sheds are
forbidden by HOA, so it's either move or make due.

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 2:07 PM, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> My two cents worth-
>
> Every time I look at Craigslist there seems to be a couple of Shopsmiths for
> sale for a few hundred bucks.  I understand they haven't changed much since
> the 60s, and are well made machines.  New ones are advertised on the
> Shopsmith site for around $3000.  That tells me a lot right there.
>
> My problem with the Shopsmith is the same as with any combination tool, like
> the 3 in 1 metalworking lathe/mill/drill presses (which I DID have once).
>  They do a lot of things, but not very well, and are always set up for what
> you don't need to do at the time, so you spend a lot of time changing the
> setup.  In the meantime, any settings you may have had for the prior setup
> are lost.   I understand another problem with the Shopsmith in particular is
> that they use a lot of proprietary parts and attachments that you have to
> buy from the factory.  If Shopsmith goes out of business (which wouldn't
> surprise me), then you'll be stuck looking on Ebay for parts.
>
> A lot of people have made some very nice stuff using a Shopsmith, but I
> suspect there are a whole lot of them gathering dust because they are a PITA
> to set up and use.  I suppose if you have a very limited budget and can find
> one cheap enough, and are really strapped for space, they would fill a need,
> but I prefer individual tools that do one thing well.
>
> Dave C
>
> Patton Dickson wrote:
>>
>> I found 1960 Shopsmith for sale w/standard attachments and manuals for
>> $125.  I haven't gone to look at it yet, but it is allegedly in good
>> shape.  I am not into woodwork outside of the occasional project, but
>> I can get rid of my tablesaw and have the ability to do more if I ever
>> get the desire.  Any experiences or reccomendations.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Patton
>>
>



-- 
Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."
1977 Newport '28

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Fri Dec 26 14:11:11 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 13:11:11 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] A serious snowblower
Message-ID: <02A45F094398456A8E75E1749F82B33D@DesktopPC>

                                If you live (or ever have lived) 'Up North',
                                ya gotta love this! Yep, it is for real!

























































-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---



No virus found in this incoming message.
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Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008
1:01 PM

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From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Dec 26 14:35:17 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:35:17 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] A serious snowblower
Message-ID: <122620082135.14388.49554E15000BC9450000383422155934149D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

We don't do attachments on Shop-Talk, Steve.  Is there a website we can see this?

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
>                                 If you live (or ever have lived) 'Up North',
>                                 ya gotta love this! Yep, it is for real!
> 

> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg]
> 
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg]
> 
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg]
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Fri Dec 26 17:25:28 2008
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:25:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shopsmith
Message-ID: <D44DFEF1315F408389BCA00F106A2C1C@OFFICEPC>

Patton says:

<<I found 1960 Shopsmith for sale w/standard attachments and manuals for
$125.  I haven't gone to look at it yet, but it is allegedly in good shape.
I am not into woodwork outside of the occasional project, but I can get rid
of my tablesaw and have the ability to do more if I ever get the desire.
Any experiences or reccomendations.

 

Thanks

Patton

>> 

 

I had one of these of a slightly older vintage, 1958 or so.  It was a nice
toy but had it's issues.  The biggest was the table for the saw- it was way
too small and its height adjustment was by undoing the screws that held the
table up over the base and pulling or pushing the table to the height you
wanted (like what you see on cheap drill presses to adjust the platform).
Later models had an adjustment wheel like all reasonable saws.

But: it was a great horizontal drill press and the disk sander was just
fine.  It was fun to use now and again as a lathe.  Get it and keep your
tablesaw, you'll be happier.  

This can be said for all tools - get them, and keep your old ones.  Perhaps
this is a sign of my (our?) disease.

 

Mark Miller

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Dec 27 07:19:19 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 08:19:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bare shelves at Harbor Freight
Message-ID: <COL110-W55C1EF4631401B40C39EDFCCE80@phx.gbl>

The shelves at my local Harbor Freight (one of two in the St. Louis area) are
looking a little bare.  They have been that way for weeks.  In today's
economic climate that makes me wonder about the health of the company.  Has
anyone else noticed this at their local store?

_________________________________________________________________
Its the same Hotmail.. If by same you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_12
2008

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Dec 27 07:43:51 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:43:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bare shelves at Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <COL110-W55C1EF4631401B40C39EDFCCE80@phx.gbl>
References: <COL110-W55C1EF4631401B40C39EDFCCE80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <49563F27.4080304@xxiii.com>

Jim Stone wrote:
> The shelves at my local Harbor Freight (one of two in the St. Louis area) are
> looking a little bare.  They have been that way for weeks.  In today's
> economic climate that makes me wonder about the health of the company.  Has
> anyone else noticed this at their local store?

Hmm, combo of crap, I'd guess.  They try to load up on hot items for 
xmas.  But then they usually owe property / inventory tax on it Jan 1. 
So they have to balance meeting holiday demand with not carrying excess 
inventory.  Plus they normally need to do a physical inventory and count 
all the garbage.  And, many people's budgets are exhausted from the xmas 
spending, so Jan / Feb may be slow.


   -Wayne

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sat Dec 27 10:06:54 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:06:54 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bare shelves at Harbor Freight
References: <COL110-W55C1EF4631401B40C39EDFCCE80@phx.gbl>
	<49563F27.4080304@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <0CDFCD03EAAA4C2FAD220812A49FD132@KARL>

I saw the same thing at one of the Chicago area stores a couple of days 
before Christmas - it was very obvious in several areas, although I wouldn't 
by any means say the store was low on inventory overall.  A decent amount of 
stuff still in the back, too, and workers promising customers that this or 
that would be in in a few days.  While I wondered about store closings, in 
fact they only recently opened another one here.  Like Wayne, I then assumed 
it was a drawdown before the end of their fiscal year, presumably January 
1st.

FWIW, their stores here (4 in the Chicago suburbs now) are always very busy 
whenever I go into one.  Lots of people buying decent carts full of that 
Chinese crap.  Ahem...  me too.....

ANyway, I bet HF's sales levels year-to-year are better percentage-wise than 
most of the major retailers here.  I'm not a big shopper, but I know that in 
every recent year, you couldn't park at ANY general shopping center here for 
the whole week before Christmas, and a few days afterwards.  This year the 
lots didn't look anywhere near crowded.

For years Jill and I have watched shopping center after shopping center and 
warehouse after warehouse being built, and asked each other who's going to 
buy all that stuff.  Maybe this is the answer - nobody.

Karl




> Jim Stone wrote:
>> The shelves at my local Harbor Freight (one of two in the St. Louis area) 
>> are
>> looking a little bare.  They have been that way for weeks.  In today's
>> economic climate that makes me wonder about the health of the company. 
>> Has
>> anyone else noticed this at their local store?
>
> Hmm, combo of crap, I'd guess.  They try to load up on hot items for xmas. 
> But then they usually owe property / inventory tax on it Jan 1. So they 
> have to balance meeting holiday demand with not carrying excess inventory. 
> Plus they normally need to do a physical inventory and count all the 
> garbage.  And, many people's budgets are exhausted from the xmas spending, 
> so Jan / Feb may be slow.
>   -Wayne

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Sat Dec 27 10:34:55 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:34:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] LIon battery care
Message-ID: <57F758225E9B4804970DB0D17D90B090@KARL>

I just got a new (well, new to me...) laptop, and I'd like to keep the battery
usable as long as possible.  My steam-powered 2001 Dell's batteries lost
capacity rather quickly after the end of their respective warranties.

I normally run the computer on wall power rather than go back and forth
between battery and wall power, and the computer usually just sits at my desk,
functioning as a desktop until I want to work somewhere else.  That computer
hasn't been off my desk for years now, because it has maybe 5 minutes of
battery capacity, all the while warning me to change batteries.  I didn't get
much more life out of either the main or the spare battery, and the spare
wasn't on charge 24 hours a day.

Soooo - what's the real deal on how to care for these expen$ive little babies
?  The LIon battery in my 4+ year old cell phone is still fine, and its
chargers are certainly nothing sophisticated.

Karl

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Sat Dec 27 10:42:08 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:42:08 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] LIon battery care
References: <57F758225E9B4804970DB0D17D90B090@KARL>
Message-ID: <5EEDB59004D64487B5169FB261754171@Dell9200>

Karl,

Check out this link

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>

Soooo - what's the real deal on how to care for these expen$ive little 
babies
?  The LIon battery in my 4+ year old cell phone is still fine, and its
chargers are certainly nothing sophisticated.

Karl

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Dec 27 11:36:30 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:36:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] heat pump water heaters?
In-Reply-To: <5EEDB59004D64487B5169FB261754171@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <517103584.1049181230402990595.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

it's shop related because it'll live in the garage and potentially cool it somewhat, if the websites are to be believed... 

so I've never even heard of these before, but the water heater at the new house seems to be gone, and I was planning to replace it with solar or tankless, or some combination of solar, tankless, and gas tank to get the endless hot water at the lowest cost. 

googling turns up heat pump water heaters. anybody know anything about them besides the sales pitches on the web? ahve one? 

I live in florida, so the incidental cooling benefit wouldn't be unappreciated. on the other hand, I have the highest electricity rates for 600 miles, and possibly the country outside new york. 

thanks. 

scott 

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 12:01:12 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:01:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] heat pump water heaters?
In-Reply-To: <517103584.1049181230402990595.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <5EEDB59004D64487B5169FB261754171@Dell9200>
	<517103584.1049181230402990595.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <abb8688a0812271101x736ab599ne5c355cb6883e389@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure if it is the same thing, but our ground source heat pump
(geo-thermal) home heating and cooling system also produces hot water.
 Ours is a Hydro-Delta brand, and is one of the best at producing hot
water (does not use a de-superheater.  However, it was a very
expensive system.  It will save us money in the long run but only
partly because of efficiency improvement.  We also get a special rate
on the electricity ofr it (on a separate meter).  Even with that, and
the reduced heating and cooling costs, it will take seven years for
the system to "pay for" itself.

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 12:36 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> it's shop related because it'll live in the garage and potentially cool it somewhat, if the websites are to be believed...
>
> so I've never even heard of these before, but the water heater at the new house seems to be gone, and I was planning to replace it with solar or tankless, or some combination of solar, tankless, and gas tank to get the endless hot water at the lowest cost.
>
> googling turns up heat pump water heaters. anybody know anything about them besides the sales pitches on the web? ahve one?
>
> I live in florida, so the incidental cooling benefit wouldn't be unappreciated. on the other hand, I have the highest electricity rates for 600 miles, and possibly the country outside new york.
>
> thanks.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jdinnis at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Dec 27 12:03:55 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:03:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] heat pump water heaters?
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0812271101x736ab599ne5c355cb6883e389@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1392253815.1051811230404635459.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

nah, I'm waiting for the a/c to go out for that. this is a dedicated water heater that sits on top of the existing water heater tank. looks almost like a pancake compressor. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Innis" <jdinnis at gmail.com> 
To: "scott hall" <scott.hall at comcast.net> 
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net 
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:01:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] heat pump water heaters? 

Not sure if it is the same thing, but our ground source heat pump 
(geo-thermal) home heating and cooling system also produces hot water. 
Ours is a Hydro-Delta brand, and is one of the best at producing hot 
water (does not use a de-superheater. However, it was a very 
expensive system. It will save us money in the long run but only 
partly because of efficiency improvement. We also get a special rate 
on the electricity ofr it (on a separate meter). Even with that, and 
the reduced heating and cooling costs, it will take seven years for 
the system to "pay for" itself. 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 12:05:16 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:05:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <D44DFEF1315F408389BCA00F106A2C1C@OFFICEPC>
References: <D44DFEF1315F408389BCA00F106A2C1C@OFFICEPC>
Message-ID: <ea2385360812271105o6293325aidfcf5efbdfb3b689@mail.gmail.com>

*Beware the 10ER model of ShopSmith:  It was actually made by "Magna" or
someone and it was totally redesigned by the people who bought the
"ShopSmith" name and concept about 40 years ago.*
**
*I just finished restoring and selling a 10ER for my widowed sis and the
ShopSmith people quickly tell you that there are no parts.  There ARE
however, many items on Ebay and even a support group on the net for the
series 10 machines.  There's nothing wrong with the concept, the functions
are easy to change and it take very little time to switch.  You don't want
to buy a 10 series but there are loads of V series out there for sale CHEAP,
parts are available, ebay has everything for them, and they are wonderful
compact tools.*
*Tony in Texas*

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Dec 27 12:14:10 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:14:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] LIon battery care
In-Reply-To: <57F758225E9B4804970DB0D17D90B090@KARL>
Message-ID: <20081227191410.EQOO13015.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> The LIon battery in my 4+ year old 
> cell phone is still fine, and its chargers are certainly 
> nothing sophisticated.

You might be surprised.  Mine is about that old, and when I pulled a charger
with a broken plug apart, I found what appears to be a microchip controller
buried in a blob of black plastic.

Randall

From 57healey at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 12:57:17 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:57:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shopsmith
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360812271105o6293325aidfcf5efbdfb3b689@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D44DFEF1315F408389BCA00F106A2C1C@OFFICEPC>
	<ea2385360812271105o6293325aidfcf5efbdfb3b689@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0812271157k3d53a1bana36ac0bca3e97915@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tony, that was exactly what this one was, and why I passed.  I did
a little research and saw these lack the ability to add safety parts
as well.

Thanks for all the input from everyone.

Patton

On 12/27/08, Elton E. (Tony) Clark <eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> *Beware the 10ER model of ShopSmith:  It was actually made by "Magna" or
> someone and it was totally redesigned by the people who bought the
> "ShopSmith" name and concept about 40 years ago.*
> **
> *I just finished restoring and selling a 10ER for my widowed sis and the
> ShopSmith people quickly tell you that there are no parts.  There ARE
> however, many items on Ebay and even a support group on the net for the
> series 10 machines.  There's nothing wrong with the concept, the functions
> are easy to change and it take very little time to switch.  You don't want
> to buy a 10 series but there are loads of V series out there for sale CHEAP,
> parts are available, ebay has everything for them, and they are wonderful
> compact tools.*
> *Tony in Texas*
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as 57healey at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."
1977 Newport '28

From swimmer at ccc-cable.net  Sat Dec 27 19:38:00 2008
From: swimmer at ccc-cable.net (Phillip Farmer)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:38:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet
In-Reply-To: <OF4FB5A2CE.A9A06A0F-ON4325752B.006447E5-4325752B.00648252@mail.megageek.com>
References: <49551818.6000800@att.net>
	<OF4FB5A2CE.A9A06A0F-ON4325752B.006447E5-4325752B.00648252@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <0C2F3E2925EC4910AD2026862364651D@Laptoppf>

Target has the B&D under cabinet mounted toaster ovens, coffee pots and of
course can openers.  Called "space saver".

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 12:08 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet

I love my under cabinet toaster.  The one I have is from the 80's!  It 
still works great (but it doesn't take bagels.)  It's right next to my 
matching, under cabinet coffee maker (also from the 80's.)  Both units are 
first generation Black and Deckers, and have moved to three different 
houses with me!

Moose
Everything I know about knots, I learned from Alexander the Great.



"shochschild at att.net" <shochschild at att.net> 
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
12/26/2008 08:34 PM
Please respond to
shochschild at att.net


To
shop-talk at autox.team.net
cc

Subject
Re: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet






I want the toaster that poaches an egg while it toasts the toast:
www.amazon.com/Back-Basics-TEM500-Muffin-2-Slice/dp/B000B18P96/ref=wl_it_dp?
ie=UTF8&coliid=I9VVQLC0T4EDA&colid=3BH7KSY6UU44P



Randall wrote:
>> Does anyone else make a toaster that mounts to the bottom of 
>> upper cabinets?
>> 
>
> Not that I could find with Google.  B&D supposedly had plans to offer a 
next
> generation after the recall of the first generation; but it doesn't seem 
to
> be available.
>
> 
>> Alternatively, if we are stuck with buying a toaster that 
>> sits on the counter, what's a good one?
>> 
>
> I've been happy with the T-Fal I bought 6-7 years ago; but I wouldn't 
say we
> use it heavily.  Has extra-wide slots for bagels and such (plus a 
special
> button for bagels).  SS case does get warm, but not enough to melt a 
bread
> wrapper, at least after only one bagel.  I suppose it might, if you did 
a
> lot of bagels in a row.  (I gave up bagels not long after buying it, but
> still use the bagel cycle to toast my multi-grain bread.)
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

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You are subscribed as swimmer at ccc-cable.net

Shop-talk mailing list

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From pethier at comcast.net  Sat Dec 27 22:51:34 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:51:34 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] toasters, under-cabinet
Message-ID: <122820080551.13626.495713E6000DAAA10000353A22165258069D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Phillip Farmer" <swimmer at ccc-cable.net>
> Target has the B&D under cabinet mounted toaster ovens, coffee pots and of
> course can openers.  Called "space saver".

Unfortunately the toaster oven is three times the size of the toaster. 

We are now resigned to a countertop model and will go shopping locally.


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
62 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 07 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 93 Suburban, 94 Miata C-package, 79 Caterham 7
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sun Dec 28 06:08:53 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 07:08:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Bare shelves at Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <0CDFCD03EAAA4C2FAD220812A49FD132@KARL>
References: <COL110-W55C1EF4631401B40C39EDFCCE80@phx.gbl>
	<49563F27.4080304@xxiii.com>  <0CDFCD03EAAA4C2FAD220812A49FD132@KARL>
Message-ID: <COL110-W61522BE25E132A46D28EA0CCE90@phx.gbl>

Thanks.  That is good to know as I just bought a pair of their heavy duty
engine lifts and wanted to be sure I had the full 30 days to return them.  I
am thinking about building a rotisserie for my Alpine, but really wasn't ready
to pull the trigger.  However, they were on sale for $100 (from $120) and I
had the 20% coupon they seem to be sending out every day lately, so I figured
I wouldn't find a better price.  $160 plus a bit for scrap steel would be a
great price for a rotisserie.

Jim

> From: kvacek at ameritech.net
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:06:54 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Bare shelves at Harbor Freight
>
> I saw the same thing at one of the Chicago area stores a couple of days
> before Christmas - it was very obvious in several areas, although I wouldn't
> by any means say the store was low on inventory overall.  A decent amount of
> stuff still in the back, too, and workers promising customers that this or
> that would be in in a few days.  While I wondered about store closings, in
> fact they only recently opened another one here.  Like Wayne, I then assumed
> it was a drawdown before the end of their fiscal year, presumably January
> 1st.
>
> FWIW, their stores here (4 in the Chicago suburbs now) are always very busy
> whenever I go into one.  Lots of people buying decent carts full of that
> Chinese crap.  Ahem...  me too.....
>
> ANyway, I bet HF's sales levels year-to-year are better percentage-wise than
> most of the major retailers here.  I'm not a big shopper, but I know that in
> every recent year, you couldn't park at ANY general shopping center here for
> the whole week before Christmas, and a few days afterwards.  This year the
> lots didn't look anywhere near crowded.
>
> For years Jill and I have watched shopping center after shopping center and
> warehouse after warehouse being built, and asked each other who's going to
> buy all that stuff.  Maybe this is the answer - nobody.
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>
> > Jim Stone wrote:
> >> The shelves at my local Harbor Freight (one of two in the St. Louis area)
> >> are
> >> looking a little bare.  They have been that way for weeks.  In today's
> >> economic climate that makes me wonder about the health of the company.
> >> Has
> >> anyone else noticed this at their local store?
> >
> > Hmm, combo of crap, I'd guess.  They try to load up on hot items for xmas.
> > But then they usually owe property / inventory tax on it Jan 1. So they
> > have to balance meeting holiday demand with not carrying excess inventory.
> > Plus they normally need to do a physical inventory and count all the
> > garbage.  And, many people's budgets are exhausted from the xmas spending,
> > so Jan / Feb may be slow.
> >   -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
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008

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Dec 30 23:02:48 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:02:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

My wife is bugging me to do a playset for our son.  Apparently the park 
with all their equipment isn't enough.

Anyway, leaving aside that, anyone have any pointers on the kid playset 
front?  Sources for inexpensive slides / swing seats / whatever?

One place I see online has a kit for $640 that includes a couple slides, 
seats / other swing hardware, and plans.  You supply the lumber.  Am I 
going to beat that by much?

Less work by me is better, but I also don't want to be spending $3k on a 
playset.

Thanks!

Mark

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 31 05:49:09 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:49:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W269E95B97BD0249A1C5E599AE40@phx.gbl>

I built this for my daughter summer of '07.  She was just turning 2.

My next door neighbor was tearing down the playset in his yard that he
inherited from the previous owner and was starting to be an eyesore.  He gave
me the slide and two normal swings.  I bought the "baby" swing from Home Depot
for very little.  My daughter is tall for her age, so the baby swing barely
fits her anymore.  The slide doubles as a "water slide" in the summer with a
little water from the hose.

I think I spent a few weekends and a couple hundred dollars on the project.  I
had some leftover PT and non-PT wood from other projects and my deck.

http://picasaweb.google.com/pjmcgarvey/Playset?authkey=QCwPR8MpKtw&feat=direc
tlink

-PJ> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:02:48 -0500> From: mark at sccaprepared.com> To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets> > Howdy,> > My
wife is bugging me to do a playset for our son. Apparently the park > with all
their equipment isn't enough.> > Anyway, leaving aside that, anyone have any
pointers on the kid playset > front? Sources for inexpensive slides / swing
seats / whatever?> > One place I see online has a kit for $640 that includes a
couple slides, > seats / other swing hardware, and plans. You supply the
lumber. Am I > going to beat that by much?> > Less work by me is better, but I
also don't want to be spending $3k on a > playset.> > Thanks!> > Mark>

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 31 06:54:37 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:54:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W484C100D1921327D344163E1E40@phx.gbl>

Are you looking at building wooden stuff or buying metal?

The metal ones need to be secured to the ground while the wooden one might not
need to be.

I got a set of plans, which came with the hardware, and the lumber from
Menards.
I build a fort and large swing set in a weekend.  Check Menards, Lowes and
Home Depot.

Have you given any thought as to doing something under it so it isn't as had a
landing when he fall or jumps off?
That is what took the most time!Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves!

From opposumking at verizon.net  Wed Dec 31 08:10:32 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:10:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <002601c96b59$edb2cff0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

You can find them fairly regularly in the local newspaper.  "Free, you 
remove".  That's where I got mine.

Beware of splinters if you build it yourself.  Many of the sets use a nicer 
wood that splinters quite a bit less than the cheap wood Lowes and such 
sells.

Kids don't play a whole lot in playsets by themselves.  If they have friends 
and siblings to play in it with, then they will be up there quite a bit. 
But if you've just got one child, don't be surprised to find them not using 
it very often.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Dec 31 09:27:58 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:27:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W484C100D1921327D344163E1E40@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BAY123-W484C100D1921327D344163E1E40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812311126020.23342@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008, Rich White wrote:
> Are you looking at building wooden stuff or buying metal?

Either, really.  Its mostly down to cost.

> Have you given any thought as to doing something under it so it isn't as 
> had a landing when he fall or jumps off? That is what took the most 
> time!

Nothing beyond "gee it'd be nice to do something softer than a brick patio 
here..."  Any recommendations?  Do they sell the glued-together-rubber-bit 
cushion mats I see at other playgrounds?

Thanks!

Mark

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Dec 31 10:46:28 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:46:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] ChemAire
Message-ID: <200812311746.mBVHkSNG025040@moose.dimebank.com>

We've occasionally mentioned ChemAire tubing here, an expensive but
seemingly convenient technology for plumbing compressed air in the
shop. I had an entry for it in the Monster List (www.dimebank.com/monster)
and just heard from someone at Nibco, the manufacturer, that the
stuff is no longer available.

Just wanted to post something here for the archives, in case someone
goes looking...

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Dec 31 11:54:58 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:54:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812311126020.23342@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<BAY123-W484C100D1921327D344163E1E40@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0812311126020.23342@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <495BC002.5010702@xxiii.com>

>> Have you given any thought as to doing something under it so it isn't 
>> as had a landing when he fall or jumps off? That is what took the most 
>> time!
> Nothing beyond "gee it'd be nice to do something softer than a brick 
> patio here..."  Any recommendations?  Do they sell the 

Back when I was a kid in '72 and we had to walk uphill both ways to the 
playground, we had a 30 year old layer of cracked asphalt under the 
swings, and we all grew up fine!  'Cept for me with a big-assed scar on 
my forehead from a failed running belly-flop into the swing.  Builds 
character, dang it;  and I have a convenient reference line for where to 
part my hair.

Really... I think I heard federal safety guidelines for today's 
over-protected kids call for like 12 or 18 inch "pit" of mulch under 
equipment.  Which seems like what I've seen at current public 
installations.  Seems like without some good drainage plan, it could 
turn into a nasty swap-like pit.

   -Wayne

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Dec 31 19:20:12 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:20:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0812310100160.8888@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <63532CA7E5D84B64A78E551C2898081D@ejrussell>

I bought a set of plans from this site: http://www.jacksbackyard.com/ 
for a swingset for our grandson.
It was less than $20 for the plans. I'm sure I could have made the 
swing set without buying the plans but it was helpful to have some of 
the details figured out plus a complete hardware/lumber list made 
shopping a bit quicker (and avoided having to stop in the middle of 
construction to run out to get a forgotten bolt, etc)

Bought the swings & slide at Lowes. There were some on-line retailers 
a bit cheaper for the slide but with shipping tacked on it wasn't a 
lot less.

I don't recall the total cost. IIRC, the budget was less than $500. Of 
course Grampy's labor was free...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:02 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] kid playsets


> Howdy,
>
> My wife is bugging me to do a playset for our son.  Apparently the 
> park
> with all their equipment isn't enough.
>
> Anyway, leaving aside that, anyone have any pointers on the kid 
> playset
> front?  Sources for inexpensive slides / swing seats / whatever?
>
> One place I see online has a kit for $640 that includes a couple 
> slides,
> seats / other swing hardware, and plans.  You supply the lumber.  Am 
> I
> going to beat that by much?
>
> Less work by me is better, but I also don't want to be spending $3k 
> on a
> playset.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark