From bill at gingerich.us  Fri Aug  1 09:43:07 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:43:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <001301c8f376$abc0aa00$2f01a8c0@CPQ12949640186>
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080730201444.01c5f510@cox.net><EACFA9FA5FD1443A943F79A6610E4EC7@shack2><BAY123-W2782780E92FE628CD1E5E3E17C0@phx.gbl>
	<001301c8f2f0$bbd60f60$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<D2993EE502054EAD9EC128A7C0E0FC24@shack2>
	<001301c8f376$abc0aa00$2f01a8c0@CPQ12949640186>
Message-ID: <4860391760C544E0882E2569A1187189@shack2>

Nolan,

Well, shesh to you too! ;-)

Just a couple of comments, and then we can let this thread die.  

First, I read your original BS message when I was in a rather bad mood.  I
should have waited until later to respond, but I didn't.  I'll take
responsibility for that.  I also wrote that response prior to reading your
second message with all of the clarification in it.  I should have finished
reading all of my email before responding.  Again, my fault.  

It wasn't clear to me that it was the information you were calling BS.  And
no, you didn't call me a liar.  That came from my interpretation of your
statements.  I'm not sure where you got the idea that I though you said I
couldn't read.  What I was trying to say was that I was smart enough to
understand the article I was referring to in my original post.

This whole thing seems to come down to the "fact" that both of us have
misunderstood what the other has written.  This isn't the first time I've
misinterpreted something, and I'm sure it won't be the last.  Most of us do
it with more regularity than we'd like.  Such is life.

Here's to clearer communication in the future.

BillG
Newalla, OK

    

-----Original Message-----
From: Nolan [mailto:opposumking at verizon.net] 
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:34 PM
To: Bill Gingerich; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show

Shesh,

I never called you a liar Bill, and I never said you can't read.  I called 
BS on the information itself.  I'm sorry you feel it was a personal attack, 
it wasn't.

My sources I already elaborated on previously.  Oklahoma laws, etc.  Read 
what I wrote, I spelled it out.  And if you would kindly read what I wrote, 
you'd notice I thanked Randal for finding the proper law citation.  In fact,

you might even notice that I immediately went from calling BS to completely 
acknowledging that the law exists.  Enough to make it seem that I, er, 
changed my mind.  ;-)

Like I said in the message that you apparently didn't read, while I'm sure 
the law is real (it is), it doesn't appear to be enforced.  I found electric

vehicle clubs in Oklahoma, and nary a mention of this with their converted 
cars.  Not one of them showing the windshield sticker the law requires.  I 
found alternative fuel vehicles in Oklahoma, same thing.  I found companies 
in Oklahoma making EV's and various conversions, with no mention of this 
law, and not a single windshield sticker on any of the vehicles shown.

I'm sorry you got so bent out of shape and feel so personally attacked.  You

weren't.  I doubted the accuracy of the story (heavens, to think I would 
ever doubt a news story or something someone said on the internet!) after 
being unable to find any substantiation of it on my own.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us>
To: "'Nolan'" <opposumking at verizon.net>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show


> Nolan,
>
> You can call it BS if you like, but I stand by my statements.  I'd be
> interested in reading what you found.  There was an article in one of the
> local papers in OKC.  It did state what I said, and had an interview with
> the author of the law.  Unfortunately, I took the recycling to the drop 
> off
> site on Tuesday, and that paper was in the pile.  I know this message 
> won't
> change your mind, but I am smart enough to know what I read.

From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Aug  1 11:00:49 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:00:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Nova - PBS show
In-Reply-To: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20080731111436.JNNF4153.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <48934141.7020300@milleredp.com>

> Let there be no doubt, OK is an oil state.  This last provision is
> particularly offensive, since it could be reasonably interpreted to include
> even a 12v kiddie car with a charger operated on house current.

This sounds to me more like something written by lawyers, not oilmen.

John.

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sun Aug  3 12:11:03 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:11:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?
Message-ID: <000801c8f594$4b62cbf0$add07d80@B50SS>

Hi guys,

So I screwed up -- I rebuilt my '74 TR6 engine from the ground up (crank
grind, balanced, magnafluxed, new cam, valves, pistons, rockers, rocker shaft,
oil pump, etc.) about two years ago.It was all done with assembly lube and
coated with oil.

Before I could reinstall it, we bought new house, moved, had to set-up the new
garage, etc., and now am ready to drop it in. It has been sitting inside a
clean garage in SoCal covered with a tarp, but I realized that I had not
plugged the spark plug holes.

So a long story short, fully rebuilt engine has been sitting for a couple
years and clearly some dust, insects, debris could have made it into the spark
plug holes. I have used the air hose nozzle to blow out the cylinders and I
see my options as:
  1.. Tear the head off again and inspect
  2.. Buy a $300 borescope and look inside at which point I still may need to
tear the head off
  3.. Option 2 but try to borrow/rent a borescope
  4.. Sequentially open a valve for each cylinder, blow it out with air and
hope for the best
  5.. Wash it out with agitene and option 4 above
  6.. Your recommendation?
I am not worried about a spider being in there as the combustion will take
care of it, but there clearly could be dust stuck to the oil that the air
nozzle would not dislodge. What do you think? Thank you.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  3 13:54:57 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 14:54:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?
In-Reply-To: <000801c8f594$4b62cbf0$add07d80@B50SS>
References: <000801c8f594$4b62cbf0$add07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <ea2385360808031254l6cbe4b83n26c39a8817b4c815@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 1:11 PM, old dirtbeard <dirtbeard at pacbell.net> wrote:

>
>

 What do you think?

>>*You've done all that would reasonable for an engine that's been tarped
any at all . . I'd just leave the plugs out, give each cylinder a squirt of
your favorite WD 40-type stuff  and give it a good whirl which will blow out
any remaining crud while you're building oil pressure.*
**
*I also like to start a fresh built or long storage engine on 2-stroke
gasoline/oil mix . . it's gotta help the rings on their first few cycles . .
just fill the float bowls full of whatever you use in your
weedeater/chainsaw, etc.*
**
*Tony in Texas*
*8 Lotus road and race cars over 30 years*

From jhassall at blacksburg.net  Sun Aug  3 14:37:58 2008
From: jhassall at blacksburg.net (J.C. Hassall)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:37:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?
In-Reply-To: <000801c8f594$4b62cbf0$add07d80@B50SS>
References: <000801c8f594$4b62cbf0$add07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <0K51000QRL97VKF1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>

At 02:11 PM 8/3/2008, old dirtbeard wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>So I screwed up -- I rebuilt my '74 TR6 engine from the ground up (crank
>grind, balanced, magnafluxed, new cam, valves, pistons, rockers, rocker shaft,
>oil pump, etc.) about two years ago.It was all done with assembly lube and
>coated with oil.

I'd be far more concerned about lube on the cam than some dust in the 
cylinders.  I'd bet the cam lube has mostly run off, so I'd recommend 
re-lubing it.  You can apply more lube with a small flux brush on a 
long stick.  Don't ask me how I know this.  (Isky recommended a 
re-lube after my engine had been sitting for a year - it that point 
it was already in the car :-(  ).

hth

jim


>Before I could reinstall it, we bought new house, moved, had to set-up the new
>garage, etc., and now am ready to drop it in. It has been sitting inside a
>clean garage in SoCal covered with a tarp, but I realized that I had not
>plugged the spark plug holes.
>
>So a long story short, fully rebuilt engine has been sitting for a couple
>years and clearly some dust, insects, debris could have made it into the spark
>plug holes. I have used the air hose nozzle to blow out the cylinders and I
>see my options as:
>   1.. Tear the head off again and inspect
>   2.. Buy a $300 borescope and look inside at which point I still may need to
>tear the head off
>   3.. Option 2 but try to borrow/rent a borescope
>   4.. Sequentially open a valve for each cylinder, blow it out with air and
>hope for the best
>   5.. Wash it out with agitene and option 4 above
>   6.. Your recommendation?
>I am not worried about a spider being in there as the combustion will take
>care of it, but there clearly could be dust stuck to the oil that the air
>nozzle would not dislodge. What do you think? Thank you.
>
>best,
>
>shook
>____________________
>'72 BSA B50SS
>'74 Triumph TR6
>'01 HD XLH 883
>'03 GMC Cargo Van
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>You are subscribed as jhassall at blacksburg.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

--
J.C. Hassall
Blacksburg VA
'63 TR4 in autox preparation
96% finished, 90% to go 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sun Aug  3 14:59:57 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 16:59:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?
References: <000801c8f594$4b62cbf0$add07d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <D8686D477AB4460FAD5A2E0544468A6E@ejrussell>

You say it was covered with a tarp during storage, thus the likelihood
that anything significant fell inside is small.

Removing the head will give you peace of mind for the cost of a gasket
set. Plus it'd probably be easier to re-lube the camshaft then
(perhaps more important that a little dust in the cylinders).

If you'd rather not remove the head, I'd suggest pouring in some light
oil/solvent (perhaps ATF?) to rinse the cylinders out. Shake it all
about then suck out what you can. Re-lube the camshaft then spin the
motor with the spark plugs out to expel any remaining oil/solvent.
Position some rags to catch any oil that comes out. You say it's not
currently installed. Why not drain out any oil in the sump then rinse
the cylinders with the engine upside down?

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "old dirtbeard" <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:11 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?


> It has been sitting inside a clean garage in SoCal covered with a
> tarp, but I realized that I had not
> plugged the spark plug holes.

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sun Aug  3 15:24:36 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 14:24:36 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?
References: <000801c8f594$4b62cbf0$add07d80@B50SS>
	<D8686D477AB4460FAD5A2E0544468A6E@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <000401c8f5af$557e4680$add07d80@B50SS>

From: "Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
To: "old dirtbeard" <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?


> You say it was covered with a tarp during storage, thus the likelihood
> that anything significant fell inside is small.
>
> Removing the head will give you peace of mind for the cost of a gasket
> set. Plus it'd probably be easier to re-lube the camshaft then
> (perhaps more important that a little dust in the cylinders).
>
> If you'd rather not remove the head, I'd suggest pouring in some light
> oil/solvent (perhaps ATF?) to rinse the cylinders out. Shake it all
> about then suck out what you can. Re-lube the camshaft then spin the
> motor with the spark plugs out to expel any remaining oil/solvent.
> Position some rags to catch any oil that comes out. You say it's not
> currently installed. Why not drain out any oil in the sump then rinse
> the cylinders with the engine upside down?
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

Hi Eric,

Actually I had just pulled the sump pan off and and did you what you are 
recommending.There was a little dust stuck to the sump pan as well. I feel 
much better now.

I looked at the cam (with the sump off) and it still is covered very well 
the assembly lube I used (I never filled it with oil). It must be pretty 
good stuff. It is sort of cool to look back inside an engine you built two 
years ago and have it still look just like you left it. Sad it has taken me 
two years to get back to it, but I think all is well.

I put some agitene through the spark plug holes, spun the crank, blew it out 
with air several times. If there is anything left in there, I will think of 
as talc that I intentionally tossed into the carb to help seat the rings. :)

Thanks for all the advice -- I just felt so stupid when I saw the open plug 
holes.

best,

doug
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "old dirtbeard" <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 2:11 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] dust in engine?
>
>
>> It has been sitting inside a clean garage in SoCal covered with a
>> tarp, but I realized that I had not
>> plugged the spark plug holes.

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Sun Aug  3 18:42:37 2008
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 19:42:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Old AM Car Radio
Message-ID: <E0B94CA3FD7848189160056F064F8A8B@Dell9200>

Does anybody have a diagram of a 1950's Motorola TM8A AM car radio.  It has 
something that looks like a date code of 1955, but it is solid state and I 
don't recall that car radios were all transistor until a little later.  Mine 
has a label on it but it is torn and I can't read it.  I can tell that it is 
neg ground.  It has a warning on the label that says something like "Use 
Only XX Ohm Speaker"  and it is torn at the XX so I don't know what it says.

Thanks,

Mark 

From shannah at pobox.com  Sun Aug  3 18:54:31 2008
From: shannah at pobox.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 17:54:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Old AM Car Radio
In-Reply-To: <E0B94CA3FD7848189160056F064F8A8B@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <525756.97445.qm@web505.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Can you get ahold of the Sam's PhotoFacts
for it?

Shannah

--- Mark <mark at nashvilletn.org> wrote:

> Does anybody have a diagram of a 1950's Motorola
> TM8A AM car radio.  It has 
> something that looks like a date code of 1955, but
> it is solid state and I 
> don't recall that car radios were all transistor
> until a little later.  Mine 
> has a label on it but it is torn and I can't read
> it.  I can tell that it is 
> neg ground.  It has a warning on the label that says
> something like "Use 
> Only XX Ohm Speaker"  and it is torn at the XX so I
> don't know what it says.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark 
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as shannah at pobox.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug  3 19:06:48 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 18:06:48 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Old AM Car Radio
In-Reply-To: <E0B94CA3FD7848189160056F064F8A8B@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <20080804010647.FDTH18001.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Does anybody have a diagram of a 1950's Motorola TM8A AM car 
> radio.

I have a SAMS Photofact volume that covers it.

>  It has something that looks like a date code of 1955, 
> but it is solid state and I don't recall that car radios were 
> all transistor until a little later.

The SAMS is the Jan 71 issue, so I doubt the radio was from 1955.  Even my
62 Chevy still had some tubes in it (though the face plate said "Solid
State").

>  Mine has a label on it 
> but it is torn and I can't read it.  I can tell that it is 
> neg ground.  It has a warning on the label that says 
> something like "Use Only XX Ohm Speaker"  and it is torn at 
> the XX so I don't know what it says.

The diagram shows a front and rear speaker, with the front speaker specified
as a 4" by 10" 8 ohm.  No specs given for the rear speaker, though.

Randall

From pearsontechcomm at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 07:30:10 2008
From: pearsontechcomm at comcast.net (Traci Pearson)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 07:30:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Dremel Workstation?
Message-ID: <20080805132948.D16EB18788F@autox.team.net>

Has anyone used the Dremel Workstation? Thumbs up? Thumbs down?


Traci Pearson
Pearson Technical Communication
Writing, Editing, Information Design  Print and Online
pearsontechcomm at comcast.net
LinkedIn Profile:
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/tracipearson>http://www.linkedin.com/in/tracipear
son

(303) 410-9101

When something can be read without great effort,
great effort went into its writing.
         ~ Enrique Jardiel Poncela

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  5 12:29:09 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 11:29:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining beam span/hanging header joists?
Message-ID: <690920.1939.qm@web54306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

This is a follow-on to an earlier deck question...

I'm planning a 10' x 22' deck cover.  I plan on supporting it using 6 4x4 beams, spaced on both sides at the 1', 11' and 21' marks (10' spacing).
Would a 2x8 bolted to the side of the beams (or using those Simpson Strongtie connectors) be sufficient to hold up the cover without sagging, or should I plan for more support beams between the spans?
The cover itself will be made of 12 2x2 trusses (~9lbs each) and 11 roofing panels (~6 lb each), plus blocking between trusses.  I'm in an area with very little snowfall, but a lot of rain.  I'll need to climb up there as well to install the roof panels and flashing (~190lbs). Should I double up the 2x8's, one on either side of the beams?
The header joist will be made of 2 11' studs.  Is it sufficient to simply butt them together and center the joint overlap equally on the center beam, or is some sort of splice needed to keep them together.

Thanks for the help!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Aug  5 13:00:45 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 14:00:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining beam span/hanging header joists?
In-Reply-To: <690920.1939.qm@web54306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <690920.1939.qm@web54306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C21E325CA0B7497B85C6350AA99919A2@OwnerPC>

I would think it would be sufficient to support the roof load but your load 
is something else... not the beam but  2x2 trusses ???  is this an 
engineered truss or something you've come up with...  I covered my deck 
12'x24' with 2x6 roof rafters supporting metal sheeting (22 ga) with 1x4 
sheet 'girts' set flush with the top of the 2x6s (notched in) ... and it's 
all sitting on a double 2x6 beam on the outside end...overlapped about 3 
feet and bolted in 4 places with 1/2" bolts and nailed about a hundred 
times... it's supported by 4 4x4 posts (8' centers)... it's held a 12" snow 
for about a week and I routinely climb on it to clean gutters... although I 
limit my steps to the rafters and the bridging...

I just don't know about 2x2" material and can't picture a 2x2 truss in my 
small mind...if you're still antsy about it, sandwich a piece of 3/8" or 
1/2" plywood in between the 2x8s before bolting and you're surely good to 
go...  BTW a double 2x8 ?? you're gonna need some help to set that up there.

john


> I'm planning a 10' x 22' deck cover.  I plan on supporting it using 6 4x4 
> beams, spaced on both sides at the 1', 11' and 21' marks (10' spacing).
> Would a 2x8 bolted to the side of the beams (or using those Simpson 
> Strongtie connectors) be sufficient to hold up the cover without sagging, 
> or should I plan for more support beams between the spans?
> The cover itself will be made of 12 2x2 trusses (~9lbs each) and 11 
> roofing panels (~6 lb each), plus blocking between trusses.  I'm in an 
> area with very little snowfall, but a lot of rain.  I'll need to climb up 
> there as well to install the roof panels and flashing (~190lbs). Should I 
> double up the 2x8's, one on either side of the beams?
> The header joist will be made of 2 11' studs.  Is it sufficient to simply 
> butt them together and center the joint overlap equally on the center 
> beam, or is some sort of splice needed to keep them together.

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  5 15:10:15 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Determining beam span/hanging header joists?
In-Reply-To: <C21E325CA0B7497B85C6350AA99919A2@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <724595.69151.qm@web54301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hi John,

The truss is an engineered truss originally made for supporting the roof on manufactured homes; I've attached a pic but don't know if it will go through.  I'm not sure what load they were originally designed for (I picked them up at a lumber liquidator), but I imagine my load (the polycarb panels) must be much lighter than anything they would have been designed for.

If I understand your header joist construction, it looks like (top view):
(inside)
      X        X   
---|------|------
------|------|---
(outside)


Where:
  X = 4x4 beam
  - = 2x6 board
  | = joint between 2x6 board.
That's more stout than what I have.  I'm thinking:

        X
--------|--------

or possibly:

--------|--------
        X
--------|--------

I'm not sure how the plywood would help with this though?


--- On Tue, 8/5/08, john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
> I would think it would be sufficient to support the roof
> load but your load 
> is something else... not the beam but  2x2 trusses ???  is
> this an 
> engineered truss or something you've come up with...  I
> covered my deck 
> 12'x24' with 2x6 roof rafters supporting metal
> sheeting (22 ga) with 1x4 
> sheet 'girts' set flush with the top of the 2x6s
> (notched in) ... and it's 
> all sitting on a double 2x6 beam on the outside
> end...overlapped about 3 
> feet and bolted in 4 places with 1/2" bolts and nailed
> about a hundred 
> times... it's supported by 4 4x4 posts (8'
> centers)... it's held a 12" snow 
> for about a week and I routinely climb on it to clean
> gutters... although I 
> limit my steps to the rafters and the bridging...
> 
> I just don't know about 2x2" material and
> can't picture a 2x2 truss in my 
> small mind...if you're still antsy about it, sandwich a
> piece of 3/8" or 
> 1/2" plywood in between the 2x8s before bolting and
> you're surely good to 
> go...  BTW a double 2x8 ?? you're gonna need some help
> to set that up there.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> > I'm planning a 10' x 22' deck cover.  I
> plan on supporting it using 6 4x4 
> > beams, spaced on both sides at the 1', 11' and
> 21' marks (10' spacing).
> > Would a 2x8 bolted to the side of the beams (or using
> those Simpson 
> > Strongtie connectors) be sufficient to hold up the
> cover without sagging, 
> > or should I plan for more support beams between the
> spans?
> > The cover itself will be made of 12 2x2 trusses (~9lbs
> each) and 11 
> > roofing panels (~6 lb each), plus blocking between
> trusses.  I'm in an 
> > area with very little snowfall, but a lot of rain. 
> I'll need to climb up 
> > there as well to install the roof panels and flashing
> (~190lbs). Should I 
> > double up the 2x8's, one on either side of the
> beams?
> > The header joist will be made of 2 11' studs.  Is
> it sufficient to simply 
> > butt them together and center the joint overlap
> equally on the center 
> > beam, or is some sort of splice needed to keep them
> together.

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/pjpeg which had a name of truss.jpg]

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 16:00:29 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:00:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers
In-Reply-To: <584190.41554.qm@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C4BE1B8D.50DE%kennedybc@comcast.net>

John, I9m near you in northern Washtenaw county. My problem is I9m on a
small lake and the water table is down about 2 feet. The code now requires
pilings and the cost is 15-20K, way more than I want to pay. If the
structure is less that 400 sq ft, you can do pretty much what you want. My
70 year old cottage sits one footers down about 2 feet with a little cement
and a mortared stack of cinder block. It9s held up pretty well. Not much
shifting. The footings are somewhat shielded from the elements, although I
suspect is was not heated most winters. I9m thinking of a crushed limestone
floor, I mostly want to park my boat or a car or two in the winter. And then
a pole barn type construction. I was thinking maybe a 3flat2 2 x 29 rebar
enforced concrete pad a few inches thick down about 29 might do the trick.
But, I9m sure open to ideas.
Brian
-


From: Briggs John F <jfbriggs at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:12:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Brian C. Kennedy" <kennedybc at comcast.net>, Team shop-talk
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers

Brian,



It kinda depends on where in Michigan.  Building Code in Southern MI ( I'm
in Livingston County) requires the the top of footings for pole building and
deck footings to be at least 42" below final grade.  Northern MI would be
deeper.  You can look up the normal frost line in your area on the internet.
The top of your footing can be at that level, but your county probably has a
minimum depth.  You can make it less than that, but you should then expect
things to move up and down with the frost, break,  and in some case to
eventually "pop out of the ground".  A slab in Michigan requires a 36" (it
might be 24" or so - it's been a while) deep "Rat Wall" below final grade.
The "rat wall" is to keep the moles, rats and skunks from burrowing under it
and causing problems for your floor.  My pole barn (24' x 40' 2 Story) has
the 42" deep footings for the poles and the 36" rat wall. The 5" to 6" floor
is in 4 quadrants with welded wire mesh and is poured over a 2 foot tamped
sand base.  There are three centerline poles to support the second floor.  I
originally planned to do automotive work in it, but have since turned to
building a few small boats.  Today I would put in a 3" floor with wire mesh
or a wood floor.

I bought a one person gas powered auger and bored 48" to 50" deep 8" dia.
holes below final grade and put in concrete to make the top of the footing
at the 42".   The 4" x 6" poles went in after that hardened, dirt was tamped
around the poles so that the bottom of the poles didn't move around and they
were stablized with framing,  The rat wall and floor were poured on top of
tamped sand as a single pour.  That fills in around the poles and everything
is solid.  My wife and I built all of the barn (with some help from friends)
except the concrete floor work that we had professionaly done.

The only problem I have is because the service door is next to one of the
poles and the floor moves up slightly in the winter due to frost causing the
door to jam.  I may move the door so that both sides are on 2" x 4"s
supported from the floor and that should solve the problem.



If I were building the "same" barn today, I would pour an exterior wall
foundation (48" deep x 16 or 18" wide) with interior pilings and install a
suspended wood beam floor on the pilings.  The whole barn would be stick
built rather than a pole barn.  It would have been a lot easier than dealing
with the poles when they started to twist as the whole structure aged.  It's
about 8 years old now.  In my area it is almost impossible to get 4 x 6
poles that are not twisted.  The wood floor would have turned out to be
about the same cost as the concrete floor over sand and it would better suit
my needs today for nailing braces for boat forms.  It would also be a heck
of a lot easier on the feet.

Just my thoughts and how I did it.  Good luck with it.


John

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug  5 16:12:21 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 17:12:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers
References: <C4BE1B8D.50DE%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A83AB72DC46642528B5D2748FFBD2832@KARL>

Whatever you do about footings, don't omit a good vapor barrier.  Storing 
anything in an enclosed building with a stone floor and no vapor barrier is 
asking for rust.  Especially only 2 feet above the lake level, you'll get 
moisture without a vapor barrier.  Ever see a car that was stored in a place 
like that ??  Not pretty.

When I built my hangar I planned on a floor of just packed screenings, 
although I eventually poured concrete.  I hit a sale at Horrible Freight and 
got their best-quality (silver) tarp in a size slightly larger than the 
hangar for $50, and laid that down first.  Other guys have rain from their 
roofs when it's damp, but mine is dry.

Karl


<snip>
> I9m thinking of a crushed limestone
> floor, I mostly want to park my boat or a car or two in the winter.
<snip>
> Brian

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Tue Aug  5 16:38:06 2008
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:38:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
Message-ID: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>

I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've never
rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical.  Can anyone describe the steps I
need to follow.  Especially, what I can do and what should be done by an
expert.  I've been told the crankshaft has a crack in it and I'll need a new
one.  The car is an antique MG.  Thanks for your help.
Dan

From ericm at lne.com  Tue Aug  5 17:13:20 2008
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 16:13:20 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
References: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <20080805231320.GD5246@slack.lne.com>

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 06:38:06PM -0400, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote:
> I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've never
> rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical.  Can anyone describe the steps I
> need to follow. 

Disassemble.
Replace worn/broken parts.
Machine parts that need machining.
Reassemble.


> Especially, what I can do and what should be done by an
> expert. 

Many people do the disassemble/reassemble part themselves.
Most people leave the machining part to a machininst.  They'll
make their own measurements because they wont' trust yours so
you can often leave that part to them as well.  But that means
you need to bring in everything that needs to be measured.

Sometimes some of the disassemble/reassemble part can be difficult 
or require special tools.

The best way to figure out what you're comfortable with is to get 
a good manual for your engine and read it before diving in.


Eric

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug  5 17:27:12 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:27:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
References: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
	<20080805231320.GD5246@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <661EB4D5BD7649C6BF3AFBB028E94EB7@KARL>

To add to what Eric said, get a friend who's done an engine or two (or 
twenty) to give you some moral support.  Someone to stop by and look and 
give you the confidence that all is going well, that it's supposed to look 
like that, this is how you do that, etc.

And it it's an XPAG engine (T-series MG) don't be surprised that the pistons 
come out the bottom, not the top !!

Karl


> On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 06:38:06PM -0400, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles 
> Nurseries Inc) wrote:
>> I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've never
>> rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical.  Can anyone describe the 
>> steps I
>> need to follow.

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Aug  5 17:31:23 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:31:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
References: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <0K55007KWIP8WL41@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

What kind of MG do you have?  I have an MGA and a Magnette.  There is 
a tape/DVD around called "Doctor Doolin's MGB Total Engine 
Rebuild".  Don't worry that it says MGB, they all have a LOT in 
common.  Also, find a local club.  It's a great way to get 
assistance, advice, and make a few friends.  Last, there are a whole 
bunch of MG specific lists and boards.  Tell me what kind of MG you 
have and I'll point you toward some.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 06:38 PM 8/5/2008, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote:
>I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've never
>rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical.  Can anyone describe the steps I
>need to follow.  Especially, what I can do and what should be done by an
>expert.  I've been told the crankshaft has a crack in it and I'll need a new
>one.  The car is an antique MG.  Thanks for your help.
>Dan
>____________________________

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 17:52:19 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:52:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers
In-Reply-To: <A83AB72DC46642528B5D2748FFBD2832@KARL>
Message-ID: <C4BE35C3.50E5%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Karl, thanks, at least I won't learn that one the hard way.
Brian
-- 
Brian C. Kennedy           kennedybc at comcast.net
2711 N. Maple Road      Cell 734 649 8548
Ann Arbor, MI 48103    Home 734 994 5205 Fax 734 661 5108


> From: Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> Reply-To: Karl Vacek <KVacek at Ameritech.net>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 17:12:21 -0500
> To: Brian C Kennedy <kennedybc at comcast.net>, Team shop-talk
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Pole barn and deck footers
> 
> 
> Whatever you do about footings, don't omit a good vapor barrier.  Storing
> anything in an enclosed building with a stone floor and no vapor barrier is
> asking for rust.  Especially only 2 feet above the lake level, you'll get
> moisture without a vapor barrier.  Ever see a car that was stored in a place
> like that ??  Not pretty.
> 
> When I built my hangar I planned on a floor of just packed screenings,
> although I eventually poured concrete.  I hit a sale at Horrible Freight and
> got their best-quality (silver) tarp in a size slightly larger than the
> hangar for $50, and laid that down first.  Other guys have rain from their
> roofs when it's damp, but mine is dry.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> <snip>
>> I9m thinking of a crushed limestone
>> floor, I mostly want to park my boat or a car or two in the winter.
> <snip>
>> Brian

From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 18:37:10 2008
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 00:37:10 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
Message-ID: <080620080037.25757.4898F23600022CE40000649D221353965304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net>

I've only rebuilt one engine (Austin-Healey 3000), but I had good advice and help from my father, who is an expert mechanic.  The engine now has 70K+ miles.  Here's what I can recommend:

1) get a good shop manual 
2) study it exhaustively
3) work in a clean, organized shop or garage
4) acquire any special tools you'll have to have prior to starting (esp. torque wrenches)
5) buy, rent or borrow an engine stand
6) understand how everything works and what it's there for (see #1 and #2)
7) be patient
8) cover the crank journals and/or the conrod studs when you insert the pistons
9) make sure the rings are right-side-up
10) follow the torque specs
11) keep everything clean--no crud in engine
12) get block hot-tanked and thoroughly clean all passages afterward
13) make notes, take pictures when you disassemble the engine
14) make triple-sure all oil holes line up with the appropriate channel or passage (crank, cam, rocker arm)
15) keep track of which piston, lifter and pushrod goes to each cyl, you might be able to re-use plus you want to know which one might have had a problem
16) make sure the front crank seal--if it's the newer rubber type--is centered on the crank before you tighten the timing cover
17) if your timing gears don't have marks you'll have to use a dial indicator and degree wheel (make sure you measure at the specified lift)
18) use a light coat of Permatex "Aviation Form-A-Gasket" on paper gaskets
19) prelube pistons with engine oil and all other moving surfaces with assembly lube
20) if you use new/reground cam or lifters run at higher speed (~2,000RPM) for first 15-20 minutes on initial startup
21) have fun!



bs


--
***************************************************************
Bob Spidell         San Jose, CA        bspidell at comcast.net
'67 Austin-Healey 3000             '56 Austin-Healey 100M
***************************************************************

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> To add to what Eric said, get a friend who's done an engine or two (or 
> twenty) to give you some moral support.  Someone to stop by and look and 
> give you the confidence that all is going well, that it's supposed to look 
> like that, this is how you do that, etc.
> 
> And it it's an XPAG engine (T-series MG) don't be surprised that the pistons 
> come out the bottom, not the top !!
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> > On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 06:38:06PM -0400, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles 
> > Nurseries Inc) wrote:
> >> I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've never
> >> rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical.  Can anyone describe the 
> >> steps I
> >> need to follow.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as bspidell at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Tue Aug  5 19:04:23 2008
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:04:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
References: <080620080037.25757.4898F23600022CE40000649D221353965304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c8f760$5df72c20$8f547247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Change # 12 to 13-A, "make" sure the head is "TRUE" and no cracks between 
the valves or cyclinders= BTDT once was enough, buy a "complete gasket set" 
"FT"
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
To: "Karl Vacek" <KVacek at Ameritech.net>; "Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles 
Nurseries Inc)" <coles at colesnurseries.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild


> I've only rebuilt one engine (Austin-Healey 3000), but I had good advice 
> and help from my father, who is an expert mechanic.  The engine now has 
> 70K+ miles.  Here's what I can recommend:
>
> 1) get a good shop manual
> 2) study it exhaustively
> 3) work in a clean, organized shop or garage
> 4) acquire any special tools you'll have to have prior to starting (esp. 
> torque wrenches)
> 5) buy, rent or borrow an engine stand
> 6) understand how everything works and what it's there for (see #1 and #2)
> 7) be patient
> 8) cover the crank journals and/or the conrod studs when you insert the 
> pistons
> 9) make sure the rings are right-side-up
> 10) follow the torque specs
> 11) keep everything clean--no crud in engine
> 12) get block hot-tanked and thoroughly clean all passages afterward
> 13) make notes, take pictures when you disassemble the engine
> 14) make triple-sure all oil holes line up with the appropriate channel or 
> passage (crank, cam, rocker arm)
> 15) keep track of which piston, lifter and pushrod goes to each cyl, you 
> might be able to re-use plus you want to know which one might have had a 
> problem
> 16) make sure the front crank seal--if it's the newer rubber type--is 
> centered on the crank before you tighten the timing cover
> 17) if your timing gears don't have marks you'll have to use a dial 
> indicator and degree wheel (make sure you measure at the specified lift)
> 18) use a light coat of Permatex "Aviation Form-A-Gasket" on paper gaskets
> 19) prelube pistons with engine oil and all other moving surfaces with 
> assembly lube
> 20) if you use new/reground cam or lifters run at higher speed (~2,000RPM) 
> for first 15-20 minutes on initial startup
> 21) have fun!
>
>
>
> bs
>
>
> --
> ***************************************************************
> Bob Spidell         San Jose, CA        bspidell at comcast.net
> '67 Austin-Healey 3000             '56 Austin-Healey 100M
> ***************************************************************
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
>> To add to what Eric said, get a friend who's done an engine or two (or
>> twenty) to give you some moral support.  Someone to stop by and look and
>> give you the confidence that all is going well, that it's supposed to 
>> look
>> like that, this is how you do that, etc.
>>
>> And it it's an XPAG engine (T-series MG) don't be surprised that the 
>> pistons
>> come out the bottom, not the top !!
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>> > On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 06:38:06PM -0400, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles
>> > Nurseries Inc) wrote:
>> >> I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've 
>> >> never
>> >> rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical.  Can anyone describe the
>> >> steps I
>> >> need to follow.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> You are subscribed as bspidell at comcast.net
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as frede.thomas2 at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From ericm at lne.com  Tue Aug  5 20:34:39 2008
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 19:34:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <080620080037.25757.4898F23600022CE40000649D221353965304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net>
References: <080620080037.25757.4898F23600022CE40000649D221353965304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080806023439.GM3021@slack.lne.com>

On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 12:37:10AM +0000, Bob Spidell wrote:
> 9) make sure the rings are right-side-up

Measure the new rings.  I have gotten mis-marked rings before.

I like to measure everything that I have a spec for.


> 11) keep everything clean--no crud in engine

NO red shop rags on clean parts!  They spew fibers which end up in the oil.

> 18) use a light coat of Permatex "Aviation Form-A-Gasket" on paper gaskets

I like to use sealant only on the side that's going on the removeable part
(i.e. valve cover)
unless the gasket is known to have a bad problem remaining sealed.

After you have spent hours hunched over an engine scraping old gasket 
sealant off a mating surface while trying not to drop any bits into the
engine innards, you'll know why. 

Don't use too much sealant.  If it squishes out on the outside of the
parts as you tighten the bolts it'll be squishing out on the inside too.
There it can break free and gum up oil passages. 

My favorite gasket sealant is Yamabond #4.

Clean the mating surfaces very well before using sealant.  I use carb
cleaner and then alcohol or acetone to get the residue off.


It might help to read some books on general engine building.
For example from A. Graham Bell's (not that Bell, this guy's an Aussie
and still alive) book on two-stoke tuning I learned about the small
tricks to help prevent problems, like stoning the sharp corners
on piston rings to keep the rings from grabbing the locating pin
and pulling it out of the piston (two-stroke pistons have ring locating pins
so they don't rotate- if they did the ends would break off in a port).

I'd never have figured that, or chamfering ports in a freshly bored
cylinder so they don't damage the rings, on my own.



The advantage that you have over a pro is time.  He's got to get it
done with as little time as he can spend and still do a decent job
but you can spend as much as you want on your engine.



Eric

From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 21:54:41 2008
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:54:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <20080806023439.GM3021@slack.lne.com>
References: <080620080037.25757.4898F23600022CE40000649D221353965304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net>
	<20080806023439.GM3021@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <48992081.90809@comcast.net>

Forgot to mention there's a lot of concern about modern (SM) oils with 
little or no ZDDP to protect high-shear areas (like lifter faces and cam 
lobes) on flat-tappet engines.  There are several additives which add 
ZDDP, inc. GM "Eos," and it's important to use one during break-in.


bs

*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
*******************************************************************

From chad at linuxeg.com  Tue Aug  5 23:37:14 2008
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chad on LEG)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 01:37:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
References: <080620080037.25757.4898F23600022CE40000649D221353965304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net><20080806023439.GM3021@slack.lne.com>
	<48992081.90809@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <016b01c8f786$7bbd48e0$6101a8c0@tardis>

Check out Shell Rotella T, they reduced the amount
of ZDDP but is said to provide the necessary level
of protection. I'll be breaking in a new cam is the 
next few weeks so I hope so! (was and I think still 
is recomended by Comp Cams) One last thing, I've 
been using Red Line assembly lube, can't harm but, 
I feel, it can help.
chad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild


> Forgot to mention there's a lot of concern about modern (SM) oils with 
> little or no ZDDP to protect high-shear areas (like lifter faces and cam 
> lobes) on flat-tappet engines.  There are several additives which add 
> ZDDP, inc. GM "Eos," and it's important to use one during break-in.
> 
> 
> bs
> 
> *******************************************************************
> Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            bspidell at comcast.net
> *******************************************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Aug  6 06:55:38 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:55:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
References: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080806084614.01fddb38@cox.net>

At 06:38 PM 8/5/2008, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote:

 >I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've never
 >rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical....

Dan,

Others have presented good advice.  A couple of thing I haven't seen mention
directly:

1.  Have a machine shop do your head - deck it, new valve guides and seats,
     and seat the valves.

2. Have the con rods and crank magnafluxed - checked for cracks.

3. Have the block hot tanked.  You'll have to replace the freeze plugs.

4. When reassembling, turn the engine over by hand - socket on a ratchet on
     the crank bolt, after every part you install.  You are checking 
for something
     binding.  If you do it as you insert each part, you'll know that 
it's the last
     part you installed if it does bind.  I did my Volvo P1800 engine year ago,
     and didn't turn it over after I had gotten all the pistons 
in.  So after I got the
     cam in and the head on the engine was locked up.  So I had to tear it down
     again.  Turns out that there was an end bearing that could go in 2 ways.
     I put it in wrong.  Took a while to find that.

5. Back the valve adjusters off before turning the engine over.  The may not
     be adjusted correctly and you'll bend the push rods.  I did that on my TR3
     engine.  (The 1st engine I ever rebuilt.)

6. After fully assembled, remove the spark plugs and turn it over with the
     starter to get oil pressure up before you try and start the 
engine.  If you
     have an oil pressure gauge, watch it for pressure.  If not, go buy a cheap
     mechanical one and install it.  Do not run the engine for long periods of
     time on the starter.  No more than 15 - 20 seconds.  Then let it set for
     5 or 10 seconds.  With no plugs in, the starter can spin the 
engine easily,
     but you don't want burn it up.


John






John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Aug  6 07:38:45 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:38:45 -1200
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
Message-ID: <4899a965.15f.21ab.467828475@ml2.myemail.com>

> 3. Have the block hot tanked.  You'll have to replace the
> freeze plugs.

If the block has any aluminum (MGA/MGB engines have aluminum
engine number tags) remove it or it might be destroyed. The
MG ID tags are secured with drive rivets. Pry them out to
remove. They are one-time use usually so will need to be
replaced.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
Login from home, work, school.  Anywhere!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Aug  6 07:42:59 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 06:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.1.20080806084614.01fddb38@cox.net>
Message-ID: <547841.18155.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> 5. Back the valve adjusters off before turning the
> engine over.  The may not
>      be adjusted correctly and you'll bend the push
> rods.  I did that on my TR3
>      engine.  (The 1st engine I ever rebuilt.)

If a rod doesn't bend, you might break a rocker arm
instead.  That's what happened to me once...

> 
> 6. After fully assembled, remove the spark plugs and
> turn it over with the
>      starter to get oil pressure up before you try
> and start the 
> engine.

You can also mount a handle-less screwdriver in an
electric drill, and stick it down into the oil pump
(before you install the pump/distributor drive gear)
to operate it and build up pressure.  You need to run
the drill in reverse, I believe.

Doug Braun
'72 Spit

From shiples at comcast.net  Wed Aug  6 08:23:52 2008
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 07:23:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <080620080037.25757.4898F23600022CE40000649D221353965304040
	A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20080806071316.025b2c90@mail.comcast.net>

>19) prelube pistons with engine oil and all other moving surfaces with 
>assembly lube

Be aware that your particular situation might vary from standard procedures.

I was taught to dunk the whole piston/ring/rod assembly in motor oil.  My last
engine (Jaguar) had rings that were designed to be run dry at startup.

I'm assembling a Ford at the moment, and there are instructions included
with the gasket set and the timing gears/chain.  I read and follow the 
instructions

From bill at gingerich.us  Wed Aug  6 08:46:03 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:46:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
References: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <CB51D4F9B9E84F6D874B565418D93259@shack2>

Dan,

When I rebuilt my 1500 Spitfire engine, I decided to have the machine shop
assemble the bottom end for me.  I was not sure that I was going to be able
to accurately verify the bearing clearances, so I figured the $100 or so
cost was a good investment.  I did the rest of the assembly, which was easy
with the assistance of an experienced club member.

BillG
Newalla, OK



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dan
and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:38 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild

I am thinking of attempting my first engine rebuild.  Although I've never
rebuilt an engine , I am fairly mechanical.  Can anyone describe the steps I
need to follow.  Especially, what I can do and what should be done by an
expert.  I've been told the crankshaft has a crack in it and I'll need a new
one.  The car is an antique MG.  Thanks for your help.
Dan

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Aug  6 10:15:58 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:15:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] engine rebuild
References: <008e01c8f74b$ee370450$0c01a8c0@Fest>
	<CB51D4F9B9E84F6D874B565418D93259@shack2>
Message-ID: <1D99BBFA19AB402FBA27CF105C4D9724@KARL>

If you're pretty sure everything is OK but just want a double-check, or to 
check bearings in an assesmbled and installed engine, Plasti-Gage is pretty 
reliable.  If you haven't used it, it's a thin plastic/wax strip.  You tear 
off a piece just a little shorter than the bearing journal (parallel to the 
crank) and lay it on the bearing surface.  Install the cap, torque, and then 
remove the cap again.  It'll be "squished" out much wider.  Plasti-Gage 
comes in a paper package marked to show the clearance at whatever width 
yours squishes to.  Comes in several clearance-ranges, designated by color. 
Probably green is the most useful for typical engine bearings.

Karl


> When I rebuilt my 1500 Spitfire engine, I decided to have the machine shop
> assemble the bottom end for me.  I was not sure that I was going to be 
> able
> to accurately verify the bearing clearances, so I figured the $100 or so
> cost was a good investment.  I did the rest of the assembly, which was 
> easy
> with the assistance of an experienced club member.
>
> BillG
> Newalla, OK

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Aug  6 12:48:49 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 13:48:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
Message-ID: <0B895241C0AF41C58FDECDE7BD24439F@OwnerPC>

the last painting I did was back in the 80's.... hand rubbed lacquer on a 72'
ford pickup...  high pressure gun and overspray a plenty...

getting ready to paint the frame and lots of suspension parts on a '53 f-100
my old gun was a Graco and it hasn't been used in 15 years or so ...it would
probably need a going thru to get it up to speed again...if I could find the
parts

I'm wondering about investing in a hvlp set up...  pros/cons ???
recommendations ???  completely off topic statements ???

thanks
John



http://usawakeup.org/
it's worth the time to read it

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Aug  6 13:29:07 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:29:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <0B895241C0AF41C58FDECDE7BD24439F@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <744469.41113.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

These days, most of the HF-grade $39 guns are
allegedly "HVLP".  Then there are the "real" HVLP
setups that have a special electric-powered air source
that resembles a vacuum cleaner in reverse.

Which were you thinking of?

I am curious, too:  can anybody describe the
difference between using a "HVLP" gun and a true HVLP
system?

I have been using HF guns (mostly primer so far, very
little topcoat) and they work for me, but I don;t have
anything to compare them with...

Doug


--- john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:

> the last painting I did was back in the 80's....
> hand rubbed lacquer on a 72'
> ford pickup...  high pressure gun and overspray a
> plenty...
> 
> getting ready to paint the frame and lots of
> suspension parts on a '53 f-100
> my old gun was a Graco and it hasn't been used in 15
> years or so ...it would
> probably need a going thru to get it up to speed
> again...if I could find the
> parts
> 
> I'm wondering about investing in a hvlp set up... 
> pros/cons ???
> recommendations ???  completely off topic statements
> ???

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Aug  6 13:50:48 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:50:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <744469.41113.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <744469.41113.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7A4E2EFC002D46579FA576FC4D8BEAA5@OwnerPC>

I'm not smart enough to answer your question... I really can't see investing 
4-600 bucks on a 'turbine system' for only one vehicle but I think I want a 
better than |H.F. outcome ... I think.  H.F.gun might work fine for the 
primer and a better gun for the finish coat...

I'm using Sherwin Williams Fleet Sunfire finishes...   first pass will be 
urethane primer... followed at some time by a finish coat in the same 
line...   don't even know if I need separate gun for primer and finish 
coats... might warrant a call to SW

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
To: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>; "shop-talk" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??


> These days, most of the HF-grade $39 guns are
> allegedly "HVLP".  Then there are the "real" HVLP
> setups that have a special electric-powered air source
> that resembles a vacuum cleaner in reverse.
>
> Which were you thinking of?
>
> I am curious, too:  can anybody describe the
> difference between using a "HVLP" gun and a true HVLP
> system?
>
> I have been using HF guns (mostly primer so far, very
> little topcoat) and they work for me, but I don;t have
> anything to compare them with...
>
> Doug
>
>
> --- john niolon <jniolon at bham.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> the last painting I did was back in the 80's....
>> hand rubbed lacquer on a 72'
>> ford pickup...  high pressure gun and overspray a
>> plenty...
>>
>> getting ready to paint the frame and lots of
>> suspension parts on a '53 f-100
>> my old gun was a Graco and it hasn't been used in 15
>> years or so ...it would
>> probably need a going thru to get it up to speed
>> again...if I could find the
>> parts
>>
>> I'm wondering about investing in a hvlp set up...
>> pros/cons ???
>> recommendations ???  completely off topic statements
>> ???

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Aug  6 14:01:59 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:01:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <7A4E2EFC002D46579FA576FC4D8BEAA5@OwnerPC>
References: <744469.41113.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7A4E2EFC002D46579FA576FC4D8BEAA5@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080806155957.01c6b3b8@cox.net>

At 03:50 PM 8/6/2008, john niolon wrote:

 >I'm using Sherwin Williams Fleet Sunfire finishes...   first pass will be
 >urethane primer... followed at some time by a finish coat in the same
 >line...   don't even know if I need separate gun for primer and finish
 >coats... might warrant a call to SW

Usually you use a bigger oriface and needle for primers.  Don't remember the
number off the top of my head.

I've got an HF. $59 HVLP gun.  I've used it for primer and top coat.  No
complaints, but then again I'm not a pro.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Aug  6 14:02:54 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:02:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <744469.41113.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <0B895241C0AF41C58FDECDE7BD24439F@OwnerPC>
	<744469.41113.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0K570036L3P3XQ51@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I am not an expert either, but I think you are wrong in thinking that 
the only "real" HVLP setups have a special electric powered air 
source.  I think that there are many HVLP guns in all price ranges 
that run from a compressor.  Of course the compressor must be big 
enough to meet the demands specified by the gun manufacturer.  Take a 
look at the offerings at www.eastwood.com, and you'll see both types.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

At 03:29 PM 8/6/2008, Doug Braun wrote:
>These days, most of the HF-grade $39 guns are
>allegedly "HVLP".  Then there are the "real" HVLP
>setups that have a special electric-powered air source
>that resembles a vacuum cleaner in reverse.

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug  6 14:47:49 2008
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:47:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <0K570036L3P3XQ51@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0B895241C0AF41C58FDECDE7BD24439F@OwnerPC>
	<744469.41113.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<0K570036L3P3XQ51@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <oq2k94tt6uj0h7bb93cnld0lrv3e20m72i@4ax.com>

I have a turbine type HVLP setup and a Sharpe Platinum HVLP gun that
runs off of an ordinary compressed air supply.  In my experience you
_can_ use the turbine gun for both epoxy primer and hardened acrylic
top coats, _but_ one characteristic of the turbine is that when it
compresses the air, the air temperature goes up and you are going to
be spraying with 90 to 110 degree air.  Result for me: orange peel
galore on the top coat (even with slow reducers) -- which took a lot
to rub out with 1000 and 2000 grit paper and polish.  The Platinum gun
I bought several years ago is a model that was made for the hobbiest
in that it does not need 12 cu ft/min of air supply to function.  The
flip side of that is that it is slower than a pro would want to have
to make money painting every day.  But it does produce a very nice
result.  It is not cheap.   DeVilbiss and others make good HVLP guns
as well.  I stopped reading the fine print on their offerings so I
don't know how much air they need to do a good job.

HVLP uses (wastes) less paint so at the price good paint comes for
these days it makes sense to use a HVLP gun even if you don't care
about environmental issues.

-Roland

On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:02:54 -0400, you wrote:

::I am not an expert either, but I think you are wrong in thinking that
::the only "real" HVLP setups have a special electric powered air
::source.  I think that there are many HVLP guns in all price ranges
::that run from a compressor.  Of course the compressor must be big
::enough to meet the demands specified by the gun manufacturer.  Take a
::look at the offerings at www.eastwood.com, and you'll see both types.
::
::-Steve Trovato
::strovato at optonline.net
::
::At 03:29 PM 8/6/2008, Doug Braun wrote:
::>These days, most of the HF-grade $39 guns are
::>allegedly "HVLP".  Then there are the "real" HVLP
::>setups that have a special electric-powered air source
::>that resembles a vacuum cleaner in reverse.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Aug  6 15:48:04 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:48:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <oq2k94tt6uj0h7bb93cnld0lrv3e20m72i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <624395.65557.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Recently I took my HF Thirty-Nine Dollar Classic and
an old siphon-feed non-HVLP gun, and tried to figure
out what the difference really was.  The size and
pattern of the air holes looked pretty similar.  Also,
both guns need about the same air pressure: 30 to 40
pounds.

Do you know how different a high-end HVLP gun would be
from the the two I described?

Doug

--- Roland Wilhelmy <rwil at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I have a turbine type HVLP setup and a Sharpe
> Platinum HVLP gun that
> runs off of an ordinary compressed air supply. 

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug  6 16:32:25 2008
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:32:25 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <624395.65557.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <oq2k94tt6uj0h7bb93cnld0lrv3e20m72i@4ax.com>
	<624395.65557.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <rb9k94di3qgp8h79akoe258ds780idrmk7@4ax.com>

Oh, about $300. :-)

A HVLP gun reduces the air pressure within the body of the gun to a
lower level, producing less overspray.  This also means that the
mechanism to feed the paint to the nozzle has to be different.  That's
about it, as far as I know.  There may be differences in the orifice
design to get the diffusion desired with lower pressure.  The
differences would mostly be subtle.

HF vs high end?  quality control, ease of maintenance, durability,
pattern uniformity perhaps.  At least I would hope so, Doug.

-Roland

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:48:04 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

::Recently I took my HF Thirty-Nine Dollar Classic and
::an old siphon-feed non-HVLP gun, and tried to figure
::out what the difference really was.  The size and
::pattern of the air holes looked pretty similar.  Also,
::both guns need about the same air pressure: 30 to 40
::pounds.
::
::Do you know how different a high-end HVLP gun would be
::from the the two I described?
::
::Doug
::
::--- Roland Wilhelmy <rwil at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
::
::> I have a turbine type HVLP setup and a Sharpe
::> Platinum HVLP gun that
::> runs off of an ordinary compressed air supply.

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Wed Aug  6 18:32:19 2008
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 20:32:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] painting with hvlp ??
In-Reply-To: <624395.65557.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <624395.65557.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <489A4293.2090902@snet.net>

I, too, have a Sharpe Platinum HVLP gun.  I also have a far less 
expensive Devilbiss siphon feed HVLP that I bought so that I could 
utilize my extensive collection of siphon cups, including an 8 oz. size 
and an agitator cup for metallics.

The gravity feed Sharpe, at about $400 as I recall, produces a superior 
finish to anything else I have used.  My high pressure guns are 
Devilbiss JGA guns.  And, there is no question that there is less 
overspray and less waste, and with the gravity fed gun, cleanup uses far 
less solvent.

So, I use the Devilbiss siphon HVLP gun for surfacers and primers, and 
save the Sharpe for topcoats and clears.

Two reasons for picking the Sharpe: as mentioned elsewhere, it has the 
lowest CFM consumption of any I considered at the time, and my local 
paint supplier stocks and can get any parts or different tips I care to buy.

Doug Braun wrote:
> Recently I took my HF Thirty-Nine Dollar Classic and
> an old siphon-feed non-HVLP gun, and tried to figure
> out what the difference really was.  The size and
> pattern of the air holes looked pretty similar.  Also,
> both guns need about the same air pressure: 30 to 40
> pounds.
>
> Do you know how different a high-end HVLP gun would be
> from the the two I described?
>
> Doug
>
> --- Roland Wilhelmy <rwil at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>   
>> I have a turbine type HVLP setup and a Sharpe
>> Platinum HVLP gun that
>> runs off of an ordinary compressed air supply. 
>>     
> _

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Aug  8 09:41:17 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:41:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Years ago, a buddy and I started to rebuild our 2001 CP car (autocross 
car) to be a class leader, and then due to various things (a big one being 
me being a lazy b*stard), its lanquished in a half finished state for 
quite a while.

The basic tub got finished, but we never painted the cage, etc.  After five 
years or so, its now got a coating of surface rust over everything.

My wife Laura mentioned to me yesterday that it would be neat in a few years 
for her & I and our young son (hence the "few years") to finish the car.

Anyway, I'm wondering what I can do with the car to keep "light surface rust" 
from turning into "this is a pile of junk"...  I'd like to get the surface rust 
removed, then paint everything with primer or whatever, something that will 
keep the car from rusting while it sits outside under one of those "temporary" 
tarp/plastic garages with an open floor (on asphalt).

I've heard of acid dipping, sandblasting, or ??  Any recommendations for an 
affordable way to get the surface rust removed from a welded in cage in a car? 
I don't think a wire brush is going to either do a very good job or get in all 
the cracks & crevices.

Its a (very basic) rolling chassis.  There aren't any rubber or plastic or 
whatever components on it that can't very easily be removed to make it all 
metal.

Thanks!

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Aug  8 09:55:12 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:55:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808080855l349bbc11t208d8c3469e2c84@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Years ago, a buddy and I started to rebuild our 2001 CP car (autocross
> car) to be a class leader, and then due to various things (a big one being
> me being a lazy b*stard), its lanquished in a half finished state for
> quite a while.
>
> The basic tub got finished, but we never painted the cage, etc.  After five
> years or so, its now got a coating of surface rust over everything.
>
> My wife Laura mentioned to me yesterday that it would be neat in a few years
> for her & I and our young son (hence the "few years") to finish the car.
>
> Anyway, I'm wondering what I can do with the car to keep "light surface rust"
> from turning into "this is a pile of junk"...  I'd like to get the surface rust
> removed, then paint everything with primer or whatever, something that will

Conversion coating.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Fri Aug  8 10:00:58 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 12:00:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c8f96f$f429b800$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

Back a long long time ago when I first got into restoring old sports cars
there was a local service called "Redi-Strip"  they used a total immersion
electrolytic system for rust  removal...it was fantastic because it even
removed deeply buried rust. I even had them clean wire wheels and when I had
to remove a few bent spokes I found the metal under the spoke nut as clean
as the other metal. Metal came out of the tank as clean as the day it was
made. On the down side, if the rust pits were very deep, you could get pin
holes, but with the metal so clean they were easy to fill.

His main cash cow was GM, who would send him stuff  that got  caught in the
rain, but  then GM changed to JIT and they didn't have stuff getting left
out in the delivery yards to rust. With only the old car buffs to support
him, it wasn't enough.....

If you are fortunate enough to find such a system operating in your area,
try it on a few small parts and I think you will be sold.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Aug  8 10:02:55 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:02:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<2400a5d40808080855l349bbc11t208d8c3469e2c84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0B7DAFE59654AA684736D3821F64602@KARL>

>> Anyway, I'm wondering what I can do with the car to keep "light surface 
>> rust"
>> from turning into "this is a pile of junk"...  I'd like to get the 
>> surface rust
>> removed, then paint everything with primer or whatever, something that 
>> will
>
> Conversion coating.


If the rust is too much for plain conversion coating, go to Home Depot, etc. 
& buy a gallon of phosphoric acid, dilute minimally as directed, and bruch 
it on repeatedly.  Scotch-Brite helps in the process, and is better than 
most alternatives.  Wear gloves - it won't hurt now, but the rough peeling 
skin on your fingers in a day or two will make you wish you hadn't bathed in 
it.

When it's clean, rinse with water, towel dry (to avoid flash rusting) and 
then apply conversion coat and rinse as directed.

Karl 

From hal at katemuir.com  Fri Aug  8 11:16:05 2008
From: hal at katemuir.com (Hal Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:16:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <HJECLIGCCJIHGFIGICMFIEAAIBAA.hal@katemuir.com>

Read the directions with your primer!  Some that I have seen will tell you
thar the primer is NOT protection from rust.  The primer merely helps the
paint to adhere to the surface.
Hal

-----Original Message-----

Anyway, I'm wondering what I can do with the car to keep "light surface
rust"
from turning into "this is a pile of junk"...  I'd like to get the surface
rust
removed, then paint everything with primer or whatever, something that will
keep the car from rusting while it sits outside under one of those
"temporary"
tarp/plastic garages with an open floor (on asphalt).

From bjzwissler at comcast.net  Fri Aug  8 11:24:11 2008
From: bjzwissler at comcast.net (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 13:24:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <B0B7DAFE59654AA684736D3821F64602@KARL>
Message-ID: <EE1567B8B2D244EB89774139B9329386@LivingRoomPC>

Agree with the approach below and would add that your local body shop will
have cleaners, conditioners and preps for bare metal.  I bought a TR4 body
tub that had been soda blasted and then left to sit for several years
(indoors).  I explained what I had and they sold me what I needed.  The
first one I applied smelled mostly like what I remembered phosphoric acid
smelled like. The price wasn't bad and I was sure I wouldn't use anything
incompatible with the paint.

Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at comcast.net
Columbus, IN
1966 TR-4A IRS
1973 MG Midget
1980 TR-8
2003 Honda ST1300



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Karl Vacek
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:03 PM
To: David Scheidt; Mark Andy
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?


>> Anyway, I'm wondering what I can do with the car to keep "light
>> surface
>> rust"
>> from turning into "this is a pile of junk"...  I'd like to get the
>> surface rust
>> removed, then paint everything with primer or whatever, something that
>> will
>
> Conversion coating.


If the rust is too much for plain conversion coating, go to Home Depot, etc.

& buy a gallon of phosphoric acid, dilute minimally as directed, and bruch
it on repeatedly.  Scotch-Brite helps in the process, and is better than
most alternatives.  Wear gloves - it won't hurt now, but the rough peeling
skin on your fingers in a day or two will make you wish you hadn't bathed in

it.

When it's clean, rinse with water, towel dry (to avoid flash rusting) and
then apply conversion coat and rinse as directed.

Karl
Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Aug  8 12:34:01 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <B0B7DAFE59654AA684736D3821F64602@KARL>
Message-ID: <696202.76597.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I agree with the phosphoric acid approach, based on my
experience with that stuff.  

And get lots of scotch-brite pads!

You can do a first pass with the pads and detergent,
to remove the loose flaky, dusty rust.

Afterwards paint it with 2-part epoxy primer like
PPG's DPLF, NOT regular automotive primer.  Most
rattle-can automotive primers are lacquer-based with a
lot of fillers like talc, and do not seal the surface
at all.  I'm sure you have seen a car with a hood or
fender that was stripped and given a coat of gray
rattle-can primer and then never properly finished,
and new rust is starting to come through it?

Doug


--- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

> If the rust is too much for plain conversion
> coating, go to Home Depot, etc. 
> & buy a gallon of phosphoric acid, dilute minimally
> as directed, and bruch 
> it on repeatedly.  Scotch-Brite helps in the
> process, and is better than 
> most alternatives.  Wear gloves - it won't hurt now,
> but the rough peeling 
> skin on your fingers in a day or two will make you
> wish you hadn't bathed in 
> it.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Aug  8 13:54:29 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <EE1567B8B2D244EB89774139B9329386@LivingRoomPC>
References: <EE1567B8B2D244EB89774139B9329386@LivingRoomPC>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081551540.13890@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

How much time are we talking about here to do a fairly extensive rollcage 
and areas of the car's unibody that have been modified?

Part of why the car is sitting instead of being worked on is that we're up 
to our eyeballs in projects these days and have a 1.5 year old that can't 
be out in the shop unless someone is holding him.

I was really hoping for some kinda "take it to this kinda place, pay them 
$500, and that's what you need" type of deal... Like I can devote a couple 
afternoons to this, but not that much more time.

Soda blasting?  Is that more like what I want?

Mark

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008, Ben Zwissler wrote:

> Agree with the approach below and would add that your local body shop will
> have cleaners, conditioners and preps for bare metal.  I bought a TR4 body
> tub that had been soda blasted and then left to sit for several years
> (indoors).  I explained what I had and they sold me what I needed.  The
> first one I applied smelled mostly like what I remembered phosphoric acid
> smelled like. The price wasn't bad and I was sure I wouldn't use anything
> incompatible with the paint.
>
> Ben Zwissler
> bjzwissler at comcast.net
> Columbus, IN
> 1966 TR-4A IRS
> 1973 MG Midget
> 1980 TR-8
> 2003 Honda ST1300
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf
> Of Karl Vacek
> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:03 PM
> To: David Scheidt; Mark Andy
> Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
>
>
>>> Anyway, I'm wondering what I can do with the car to keep "light
>>> surface
>>> rust"
>>> from turning into "this is a pile of junk"...  I'd like to get the
>>> surface rust
>>> removed, then paint everything with primer or whatever, something that
>>> will
>>
>> Conversion coating.
>
>
> If the rust is too much for plain conversion coating, go to Home Depot, etc.
>
> & buy a gallon of phosphoric acid, dilute minimally as directed, and bruch
> it on repeatedly.  Scotch-Brite helps in the process, and is better than
> most alternatives.  Wear gloves - it won't hurt now, but the rough peeling
> skin on your fingers in a day or two will make you wish you hadn't bathed in
>
> it.
>
> When it's clean, rinse with water, towel dry (to avoid flash rusting) and
> then apply conversion coat and rinse as directed.
>
> Karl
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as bjzwissler at comcast.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Aug  8 14:04:56 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 15:04:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
References: <EE1567B8B2D244EB89774139B9329386@LivingRoomPC>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081551540.13890@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <6CC7E76FBF6E4D5EA32EFAD1CF78AA9A@KARL>

Then dipping might be good.  You drop off, pay, and pick up.  Redi-Strip is 
nationally known and I hope OK today (they ruined the wood in my Model T 
body 32 years ago so I'd never return), but they're expensive.

Local places in this area have generally offered far better prices, with the 
added advantage of dealing with the people likely to be involved in or at 
least directly supervising the actual work.  People I know who've used some 
of the local places love them.  Redi-Strip here, in the Chicago area, is a 
bigger operation (they do lots of industrial parts) and you're unlikely to 
get any personal contact with the guys handling your car/parts/whatever.

Karl



> How much time are we talking about here to do a fairly extensive rollcage
> and areas of the car's unibody that have been modified?
>
> Part of why the car is sitting instead of being worked on is that we're up
> to our eyeballs in projects these days and have a 1.5 year old that can't
> be out in the shop unless someone is holding him.
>
> I was really hoping for some kinda "take it to this kinda place, pay them
> $500, and that's what you need" type of deal... Like I can devote a couple
> afternoons to this, but not that much more time.
>
> Soda blasting?  Is that more like what I want?

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Aug  8 14:23:56 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:23:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
References: <EE1567B8B2D244EB89774139B9329386@LivingRoomPC>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081551540.13890@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <E8527DC1AEC1407E8575A6DF87447F79@ejrussell>

Soda blasting is good for gentle paint removal but it does not remove 
rust. If you find a place that does soda blasting it is likely they 
will also do abrasive ("sand") blasting. That is what you want for 
rust removal. Then have it primed with an epoxy primer.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
>
> Soda blasting?  Is that more like what I want?
>
> Mark

From bjzwissler at comcast.net  Fri Aug  8 14:59:23 2008
From: bjzwissler at comcast.net (Ben Zwissler)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:59:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081551540.13890@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <305A5D166DF245499B147D780979B45A@LivingRoomPC>

For me it was entire body tub that had light rust - not flakes, mostly still
metal showing, but rust over the entire surface - from sitting in a garage
for years with no paint after soda blasting.  Not counting repairs, prepping
it and priming it was a few days work.  Someone mentiond the PPG DPLF primer
and that's what I used.  It won't rust with that on it if its indoors.   I
also used the Scotchbrite pads and went over the entire surface with the
conditioner (PPG DX579 Metal Cleaner "a multi-purpose phosphoric acid based
cleaner and prepaint conditioner".  Then just before priming, I went over it
again with DX520 Metal Conditioner that is also a "phosphoric acid based
coating chemical that will produce a zinc phosphate coating on galvanized or
steel surfaces."  Then applied the DPLF primer.  The whole process was
probably a total of 16 hours work spread over several days.

I'm sure any body shop could do this as well, as long as you don't mind the
$75/hour.  The cleaner/conditioner was around $30/quart and DPLF is very
dear, well over $100/qt with all the components.

Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at comcast.net
Columbus, IN
1966 TR-4A IRS
1973 MG Midget
1980 TR-8
2003 Honda ST1300



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bjzwissler=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Mark Andy
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 3:54 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?


Howdy,

How much time are we talking about here to do a fairly extensive rollcage
and areas of the car's unibody that have been modified?

Part of why the car is sitting instead of being worked on is that we're up
to our eyeballs in projects these days and have a 1.5 year old that can't
be out in the shop unless someone is holding him.

I was really hoping for some kinda "take it to this kinda place, pay them
$500, and that's what you need" type of deal... Like I can devote a couple
afternoons to this, but not that much more time.

Soda blasting?  Is that more like what I want?

Mark

From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Aug  8 15:14:33 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:14:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <000d01c8f96f$f429b800$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <000d01c8f96f$f429b800$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <489CB739.4080301@milleredp.com>

Gerald Brazil wrote:
> Back a long long time ago when I first got into restoring old sports cars
> there was a local service called "Redi-Strip"

I would note that around here there might have been more at one time, 
but at present there appears to be exactly one operating.

I had them do the '65 Mustang convertible that's going back together out 
in my garage, and yesterday we stuck a friend's '66 Falcon project car 
on the trailer and carted it up there (just about exactly 100mi from his 
doorstep.)

Prepping and dunking the shell is going to cost right around $1000, add 
the doors, hood, trunklid and other lesser bits and the tab for the 
stripping will end up around $1600.  Epoxy-priming the result adds 
another $1600.

John.

From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Aug  8 15:17:17 2008
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:17:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <489CB739.4080301@milleredp.com>
References: <000d01c8f96f$f429b800$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
	<489CB739.4080301@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <489CB7DD.4040103@milleredp.com>

>> Back a long long time ago when I first got into restoring old sports cars
>> there was a local service called "Redi-Strip"
> 
> I would note that around here there might have been more at one time, 
> but at present there appears to be exactly one operating.

Clarification - the outfit around here is not a Redi-Strip outlet, it's 
an independent operation.

John.

From 57healey at gmail.com  Fri Aug  8 15:34:35 2008
From: 57healey at gmail.com (Patton Dickson)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:34:35 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808081139260.7306@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <743b1e2f0808081434k7ae9bb07o61598ce223c444e9@mail.gmail.com>

Just to ad a little crazy to the conversaition.

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/rust_molasses.htm

There are lots of links on how this works, not many to this scale!

Patton

On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> Years ago, a buddy and I started to rebuild our 2001 CP car (autocross
> car) to be a class leader, and then due to various things (a big one being
> me being a lazy b*stard), its lanquished in a half finished state for
> quite a while.
>
> The basic tub got finished, but we never painted the cage, etc.  After five
> years or so, its now got a coating of surface rust over everything.
>
> My wife Laura mentioned to me yesterday that it would be neat in a few
> years
> for her & I and our young son (hence the "few years") to finish the car.
>
> Anyway, I'm wondering what I can do with the car to keep "light surface
> rust"
> from turning into "this is a pile of junk"...  I'd like to get the surface
> rust
> removed, then paint everything with primer or whatever, something that will
> keep the car from rusting while it sits outside under one of those
> "temporary"
> tarp/plastic garages with an open floor (on asphalt).
>
> I've heard of acid dipping, sandblasting, or ??  Any recommendations for an
> affordable way to get the surface rust removed from a welded in cage in a
> car?
> I don't think a wire brush is going to either do a very good job or get in
> all
> the cracks & crevices.
>
> Its a (very basic) rolling chassis.  There aren't any rubber or plastic or
> whatever components on it that can't very easily be removed to make it all
> metal.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as 57healey at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>



-- 
Patton Dickson - http://Austin-Healeys.com - Plano, TX
1957 Austin-Healey 100-Six "Built to run 'til the road wears out."

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Aug  8 21:18:42 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:18:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] How to remove surface rust over entire car?
In-Reply-To: <489CB739.4080301@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <948648.9294.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yow!  You can buy a lot of DPLF for $1600.

Is it sprayed-on epoxy, or are they dipping it in
primer or doing e-coat?

You have to be careful priming a dip-stripped car,
since you have to prime EVERYTHING.

Doug


--- John Miller <jem at milleredp.com> wrote:
 Epoxy-priming
> the result adds 
> another $1600.

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Aug  8 22:54:02 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 04:54:02 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
Message-ID: <080920080454.17346.489D22EA0004A3B9000043C222165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

Help me out here, folks.  What is this thing?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606623739921/


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From pethier at comcast.net  Fri Aug  8 23:03:52 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 05:03:52 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?
Message-ID: <080920080503.27392.489D2538000BECB200006B0022165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606620180014/


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From bill at gingerich.us  Fri Aug  8 23:09:25 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 00:09:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
In-Reply-To: <080920080454.17346.489D22EA0004A3B9000043C222165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <080920080454.17346.489D22EA0004A3B9000043C222165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CDED56C64B42487EBA23127EEDBFB919@shack2>

Phil,

Looks like a web stretcher, whatever that is.  Check this out.  

http://www.csosborne.com/no255.htm

BillG



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
pethier at comcast.net
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:54 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?

Help me out here, folks.  What is this thing?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606623739921/


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C
package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From bill at gingerich.us  Fri Aug  8 23:10:44 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 00:10:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?
In-Reply-To: <080920080503.27392.489D2538000BECB200006B0022165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <080920080503.27392.489D2538000BECB200006B0022165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A1EACEF94D4A46B585627CF4E2737FC9@shack2>

It looks the same as all the gas water heaters I've seen.

BillG



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
pethier at comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:04 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent: Is this correct?

Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606620180014/


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C
package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Fri Aug  8 23:26:50 2008
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 01:26:50 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
Message-ID: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/8/2008 10:10:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
bill at gingerich.us writes:

Phil,

Looks like a web stretcher, whatever that is.  Check  this out.   

http://www.csosborne.com/no255.htm

BillG



According to Osborne's catalog, it's an upholstery tool.
 
 
Scotty from Hollyweird



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Fri Aug  8 23:28:17 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:28:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
In-Reply-To: <CDED56C64B42487EBA23127EEDBFB919@shack2>
References: <080920080454.17346.489D22EA0004A3B9000043C222165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<CDED56C64B42487EBA23127EEDBFB919@shack2>
Message-ID: <489D2AF1.20203@verizon.net>

Web stretchers are used by upholsterers for stretching webbing....Canvas 
or other fabric webbing used for seat support in upholstered furniture. 
  You tack one end of the web to the (wood chair) frame, run the web 
across the frame, stick the prongs in the other end of the webbing, put 
the other (non prong) end against the other side of the frame and 
stretch the webbing around it and tack it down.

Dave C
who hung around an upholstery shop when he was seven or eight, a LONG 
time ago.

Bill Gingerich wrote:
> Phil,
> 
> Looks like a web stretcher, whatever that is.  Check this out.  
> 
> http://www.csosborne.com/no255.htm
> 
> BillG
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> pethier at comcast.net
> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:54 PM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
> 
> Help me out here, folks.  What is this thing?
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606623739921/
> 
> 
> --
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C
> package
> pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sat Aug  9 06:00:05 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 08:00:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?
In-Reply-To: <080920080503.27392.489D2538000BECB200006B0022165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <001001c8fa17$7695cde0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

Looks just like mine.....that opening around the base that probably concerns
you it to make a draft to carry the gases up the chimney.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of pethier at comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 1:04 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent: Is this correct?


Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606620180014/


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C
package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

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From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Aug  9 06:04:42 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 05:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?
In-Reply-To: <080920080503.27392.489D2538000BECB200006B0022165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <545422.26239.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It is normal-looking.

BTW, if you remove the pipe completely and let the
water heater vent directly into the room, the CO
detector would probably still not go off.  Water
heaters normally generate very little CO.

We have a direct-vent gas log set in our basement
fireplace, and they are considered safe.  

Doug

--- pethier at comcast.net wrote:

> Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Sat Aug  9 06:44:10 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 00:44:10 -1200
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent:
Message-ID: <489d911a.192.3949.1097427512@ml2.myemail.com>

> Water heaters normally generate very little CO.

Don't tell that to the people in the hotel room opposite
ours last January.
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-5cosuit.6524123jul29,0,7967754.story

<quote>Philip D. Prechtel, 63, of Hilton Head, S.C., died
and his wife Katherine and several others were hospitalized
after contractors placed the plastic canopy over the side of
the Best Western Allentown Inn & Suites to complete a stucco
job. But the canopy, the suit alleges, was enclosed over a
basement exhaust vent -- trapping the carbon monoxide
emitted from hot water heaters -- and the poisonous air was
pulled into the rooms by air handling units.</quote>

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC 
Login from home, work, school.  Anywhere!

From brabel at dlux.net  Sat Aug  9 08:12:38 2008
From: brabel at dlux.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 07:12:38 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
In-Reply-To: <080920080454.17346.489D22EA0004A3B9000043C222165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <080920080454.17346.489D22EA0004A3B9000043C222165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <774F6B75-4DD1-4749-A43B-D64274564AB5@dlux.net>

Phil was unable to ID a tool in his collection:

> Help me out here, folks.  What is this thing?
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606623739921/
>

 From the label on the tool, I was able to go to the website of C. S.  
Osborne Company, and they're still making this 'web stretcher', which  
is an upholstery tool.

<http://www.csosborne.com/no255.htm>


- Bill Rabel
   Anacortes, WA

From pethier at comcast.net  Sat Aug  9 09:10:39 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:10:39 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
Message-ID: <080920081510.22537.489DB36F000217320000580922120207849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

Thanks to all who replied.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bill Rabel <brabel at dlux.net>
> Phil was unable to ID a tool in his collection:
> 
> > Help me out here, folks.  What is this thing?
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/sets/72157606623739921/
> >
> 
>  From the label on the tool, I was able to go to the website of C. S.  
> Osborne Company, and they're still making this 'web stretcher', which  
> is an upholstery tool.
> 
> <http://www.csosborne.com/no255.htm>
> 
> 
> - Bill Rabel
>    Anacortes, WA
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as pethier at comcast.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com  Sat Aug  9 15:17:31 2008
From: carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com (Carl Lindahl)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 17:17:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent: Is this correct?
In-Reply-To: <545422.26239.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <080920080503.27392.489D2538000BECB200006B0022165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<545422.26239.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bd8f7d710808091417j325db84bt64024f5c615e7069@mail.gmail.com>

Yes that is normally how gas exhaust from water heaters are done. It is even
good to see insulation on what I would hope is the hot side. The local
plumbing code here states that for gas water heaters that insulation must be
6" away from the entrance to the water heater.


Carl

On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 8:04 AM, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> It is normal-looking.
>
> BTW, if you remove the pipe completely and let the
> water heater vent directly into the room, the CO
> detector would probably still not go off.  Water
> heaters normally generate very little CO.
>
> We have a direct-vent gas log set in our basement
> fireplace, and they are considered safe.
>
> Doug
>
> --- pethier at comcast.net wrote:
>
> > Gas water heater vent:  Is this correct?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com
>
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>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Aug  9 18:02:34 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 17:02:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Gas water heater vent: Is this correct?
In-Reply-To: <bd8f7d710808091417j325db84bt64024f5c615e7069@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080810000234.LMLL13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Yes that is normally how gas exhaust from water heaters are 
> done.

On mine, what I have found is that immediately after the burner comes on,
some flue gases do escape through the air gap.  But the column of air in the
chimney quickly warms up and pulls a draft sufficient to suck air in through
the gap.

> The local plumbing code here states that for gas water heaters that
insulation must be 6"
> away from the entrance to the water heater.

NOW you tell me!  Those escaping flue gases also melted the insulation <G>

Randall

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  9 19:33:34 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 20:33:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What is this tool?
In-Reply-To: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com>
References: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W473B11E3310BA2365A056DE1760@phx.gbl>

My first thought was that a web stretcher was a tool to improve the speed of
your wyfi when you are at the edge of your reception area.

After reading the other posts, I guess not.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63
TR3B TCF587L That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves!> From:
ScottyGrover at aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 01:26:50 -0400> To:
bill at gingerich.us; pethier at comcast.net; shop-talk at autox.team.net> Subject: Re:
[Shop-talk] What is this tool?> > In a message dated 8/8/2008 10:10:03 P.M.
Pacific Daylight Time, > bill at gingerich.us writes:> > Phil,> > Looks like a
web stretcher, whatever that is. Check this out. > >
http://www.csosborne.com/no255.htm> > BillG> > > > According to Osborne's
catalog, it's an upholstery tool.> > > Scotty from Hollyweird> > > >
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? >
Read reviews on AOL Autos. >
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000500000000
17 )> _______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > You are subscribed as
rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com> > Shop-talk mailing list> >
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From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sat Aug  9 20:46:31 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:46:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W473B11E3310BA2365A056DE1760@phx.gbl>
References: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com>
	<BAY123-W473B11E3310BA2365A056DE1760@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <489E5687.40100@verizon.net>

It's about time to upgrade to a new computer.  My old desktop is about 5 
years old and only has 1/2 gig of ram and a 60 gig HDD, although I 
haven't even used half of it.  I'm going to get a low end desktop box 
because my home computing needs are pretty modest, mostly web surfing 
and a the occasional word processing, spreadsheet or PP application. 
I'm not doing video editing or gaming, so I don't need a high end machine.

A few of the on line retailers still sell XP machines for a couple 
hundred bucks, less monitor.  However, the local Fry's has a weekend 
special on an E Machines PC with everything I need for $249 (after the 
inevitable rebate), with Vista.

A couple of questions.  I have everything on my current computer backed 
up on a 500 gig Maxtor USB external hard drive.  If I get a Vista 
machine, can I plug the Maxtor in and drag and drop the My Documents and 
  the Program Files folders (or at least the sub folders in Program 
Files that have the apps I normally use, like Office, etc) into the new 
Vista C drive?

The other question is security.  I run current Norton on my desktop 
machine and I'm pretty sure it's clean, but you never know what kind of 
sneaky malware is hiding on your machine.  If I pull files and 
applications off my Maxtor drive, am I taking a chance that unwanted 
malicious files could also hitchhike?  The alternative would be to load 
the apps on the new machine manually, but for some, like Office, I no 
longer have the disks.  (I do have a DVD for Office 2007; tried it; 
hated it.)

Thanks
Dave C

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Aug  9 22:26:05 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 21:26:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <489E5687.40100@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <15225.18168.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You will be able to plug in the drive to the new
computer and copy the data files, but you can't copy
installed applications that way, even to another XP
machine.

Why do you need to change your computer in the first
place?  It sounds adequate for your needs.

Doug


--- "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:

> It's about time to upgrade to a new computer.  

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Aug  9 22:28:46 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 21:28:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <489E5687.40100@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20080810042846.NMHG13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> If I get a Vista machine, can I plug the Maxtor in 
> and drag and drop the My Documents and
>   the Program Files folders (or at least the sub folders in 
> Program Files that have the apps I normally use, like Office, 
> etc) into the new Vista C drive?

You can copy the folders, but don't expect apps like MS Office to work.
There is a huge amount of stuff stored in the registry that won't be copied
over that way.

> If I pull files and applications off my Maxtor drive, am I 
> taking a chance that unwanted malicious files could also 
> hitchhike?

Yes, there is a chance of that.  Not sure how much of one, though.

FWIW, my advice would be to avoid Vista, especially on an entry-level
machine.  I know lots of folks that are so disgusted with it that they went
back to XP (even the IT department at work); and we're about ready to take
that plunge on the wife's laptop.  Even with as much of the whiz-bang
resource suckers turned off as I can figure out, it still runs like a sick
dog on a hot day.

Randall

From tvacc at lotusowners.com  Sat Aug  9 22:57:51 2008
From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 00:57:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <20080810042846.NMHG13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <489E5687.40100@verizon.net>
	<20080810042846.NMHG13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <00ac01c8faa5$a44f7e00$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>

Put more memory in your Vista...it will run fine then.

That simple.

Tony V

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+tvacc=lotusowners.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tvacc=lotusowners.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Randall
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 12:29 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista

> If I get a Vista machine, can I plug the Maxtor in 
> and drag and drop the My Documents and
>   the Program Files folders (or at least the sub folders in 
> Program Files that have the apps I normally use, like Office, 
> etc) into the new Vista C drive?

You can copy the folders, but don't expect apps like MS Office to work.
There is a huge amount of stuff stored in the registry that won't be copied
over that way.

> If I pull files and applications off my Maxtor drive, am I 
> taking a chance that unwanted malicious files could also 
> hitchhike?

Yes, there is a chance of that.  Not sure how much of one, though.

FWIW, my advice would be to avoid Vista, especially on an entry-level
machine.  I know lots of folks that are so disgusted with it that they went
back to XP (even the IT department at work); and we're about ready to take
that plunge on the wife's laptop.  Even with as much of the whiz-bang
resource suckers turned off as I can figure out, it still runs like a sick
dog on a hot day.

Randall
You are subscribed as tvacc at lotusowners.com

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From tvacc at lotusowners.com  Sat Aug  9 23:00:13 2008
From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:00:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <CCD61FFEC0DD4FDDA258170DA7F41DCA@amicroinc.local>
References: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com><BAY123-W473B11E3310BA2365A056DE1760@phx.gbl>
	<CCD61FFEC0DD4FDDA258170DA7F41DCA@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <00ad01c8faa5$f9143ca0$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>

I don't know what you do for a living....but I am sure you will get this
analogy. If you buy this unit...it is like you are a doctor and want to
operate with a scissors and a sewing kit.....

Trying to tow a  5000 pound trailer with a VW Bus.....

Trying to fly with some silly feathers on your arms....

Trying to fish with no bait....but I think you get the idea.

There is no magic in the computer business...for 249 you are getting a
machine that will just frustrate you...All computer parts cost the
same...never in any field has the internet so equalized the playing field.
You get what you pay for...that simple.

Now I might be wrong here and that machine you are looking at might have 2
gig of ram and a 250Gig hard drive and a 2 gig processor...but I doubt it.

If people could buy $300 dollar computers that would do the work of $700
units...they would.

Vista is a great operating system. It was hampered by the bad press it got
because Microsoft was forced to bring it to market saying it could be run on
1 Gig...it cant.  That is just the facts....jack.

I have been in the computer business for 25 years. I am an expert. I deal
with this every day.

For Vista you need at least 2gig of ram and at least a 2gig processor.

You will have to spend at least $500 dollars...closer to $700 for a decent
unit with a monitor.

Norton and Mcafee are not what they used to  be. Go to ESET.com and buy
their AV product. Best in the world at this time.

Yes....you can bring over viruses...I would scan the computer first with
ESET online scanner...make sure it is clean.

You can plug your external into the Vista unit you buy and it will be
recognized.'

You can only bring over data and not program files. They will have to be
reinstalled on the new computer. If you don't have the original disks or
they are old versions..you will have to buy new ones.

Saying all this...if you have waited this long to upgrade your old computer
and I see that you have by its configuration....you will not listen to me
and buy what you want.....and be frustrated and scream and yell that
Microsoft screwed you and Windows does not work.

Seen it too many times to count...and if I seem short on this...it is
because I get tired of people trying to cross the Atlantic in a row boat and
wondering why their arms are tired.

Regards

Tony V

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Aug  9 23:03:52 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 22:03:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c8faa5$f9143ca0$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <20080810050351.ZBAB28556.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Seen it too many times to count...and if I seem short on 
> this...it is because I get tired of people trying to cross 
> the Atlantic in a row boat and wondering why their arms are tired.

To extend that analogy a bit, people do that because they tried to buy a row
boat from M$, and got an ocean liner instead.  You're talking about more raw
computing power than a 60's supercomputer; just to run a freaking operating
system!

Calling Vista a resource hog is insulting to hogs!

Randall - also a computer professional for 30 years; amazed at how bloated
and slow Windows is ever since Windows 286

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Aug  9 23:07:49 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 22:07:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <00ac01c8faa5$a44f7e00$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <20080810050748.SUGC14026.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Put more memory in your Vista...it will run fine then.

Easier and cheaper to put Vista where it belongs ... in the trash bin!

Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sun Aug 10 02:16:53 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:16:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <20080810050748.SUGC14026.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
References: <20080810050748.SUGC14026.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <489EA3F5.4070207@verizon.net>

Thanks for your comments.  I hadn't intended to start an XT vs Vista 
conflagration, although I'm not surprised that it happened.

I have been using personal computers since '82 or '83 when I got my 
first PC clone, which also ran CPM.  I was pretty good with DOS, but as 
the operating systems got more complicated and my interests shifted, 
the computer became just another appliance.

Tony, your comments about the cost and horsepower to run Vista are well 
taken.  Vista is probably a pretty good OS and from what I understand 
since SP1 has been released it works pretty well, but I do understand 
that it needs at least 1 gig, preferably 2, to work well.  However, I'm 
probably not going to get a Vista machine.

I'm replacing my present machine because it is over five years old, and 
has been rebuilt at least once in that time.  It's starting to get 
cranky; the HDD is making occasional noises, the power supply is noisy, 
and occasionally, weird things happen.   Otherwise, for my needs, an XT 
machine with half a gig works fine for me.  A new loss leader machine, 
with a full gig, a bigger HDD and a working DVD will be an upgrade for 
me, even if it's still running XT.

Thanks again for the input.


Randall wrote:
>> Put more memory in your Vista...it will run fine then.
> 
> Easier and cheaper to put Vista where it belongs ... in the trash bin!
> 
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
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> 
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> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Sun Aug 10 06:23:50 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 07:23:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 2, Issue 221
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21723.1218356206.1200.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.21723.1218356206.1200.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <4382458b0808100523w2ffeffabmf1a1605ed3b727cd@mail.gmail.com>

> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:46:31 -0700
> From: "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net>
>
> It's about time to upgrade to a new computer.  My old desktop is about 5
> years old and only has 1/2 gig of ram and a 60 gig HDD, although I
> haven't even used half of it.  I'm going to get a low end desktop box
> because my home computing needs are pretty modest, mostly web surfing
> and a the occasional word processing, spreadsheet or PP application.
> I'm not doing video editing or gaming, so I don't need a high end machine.
>
> A few of the on line retailers still sell XP machines for a couple
> hundred bucks, less monitor.  However, the local Fry's has a weekend
> special on an E Machines PC with everything I need for $249 (after the
> inevitable rebate), with Vista.

Dave
     I was in the same boat, with a 10 year old machine and about the
same needs as you. I looked long and hard at all the sub $300 deals
out there and all were lacking somewhere.
I ended up at Fry's looking at yet another $299 system, light on RAm
and short on features.  But they had another unadvertised special - an
HP with 4 gb, 650 gb HD, and a fast processor for $399. Works fine,
runs Vista fine, but I'd still rather have XP

> A couple of questions.  I have everything on my current computer backed
> up on a 500 gig Maxtor USB external hard drive.  If I get a Vista
> machine, can I plug the Maxtor in and drag and drop the My Documents and
>  the Program Files folders (or at least the sub folders in Program
> Files that have the apps I normally use, like Office, etc) into the new
> Vista C drive?

That is exactly what I did

> The other question is security.  I run current Norton on my desktop
> machine and I'm pretty sure it's clean, but you never know what kind of
> sneaky malware is hiding on your machine.  If I pull files and
> applications off my Maxtor drive, am I taking a chance that unwanted
> malicious files could also hitchhike?

I use Avast AV software, works great, and it's free. Doesn't take over
your machine like Norton does.

 The alternative would be to load
> the apps on the new machine manually, but for some, like Office, I no
> longer have the disks.  (I do have a DVD for Office 2007; tried it;
> hated it.)

As others have said. apps don't transfer, least of all Office.
Download OpenOffice from Sun. Works great, does all the same things in
about the same way, and it's free.

Rex B, back after a long absence from this group

From bugi1960 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 10 10:26:25 2008
From: bugi1960 at gmail.com (Phil Nase)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:26:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <15225.18168.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <15225.18168.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DC7E4151-EC26-431C-8F0C-A4CB129B4E4F@gmail.com>

While were talking computers; in Spring I made the leap from PC to  
Mac.  Mostly it's been a positive experience.

I do run software called Parallels in order to simultaneously run  
Windows XP on my Mac and join my workplace Windows network server.  I  
have 2 gig of ram on the Macbook but in Parallels the machine is slow.

I've heard that Parallels is a memory hog.  Does anyone have any  
experience using the newer Macbooks.  I can go from 2 to 4 gig ram but  
I don't want to spend the money if it's not going to help my Windows  
speeds.  The MAC OS is plenty fast enough for my needs.

Also, any recommendations on Mac memory brands.  The Apple memory is  
very expensive IMO.  Thanks.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Sun Aug 10 17:26:45 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:26:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <489E5687.40100@verizon.net>
References: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com>
	<BAY123-W473B11E3310BA2365A056DE1760@phx.gbl>
	<489E5687.40100@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <489F7935.2060209@HorneSystemsTx.com>

Dave,

I am in the process of supporting some new vista home machines on a 
network with some XP machines. I am new to vista, so am pushing the 
learning curve that you will be.
Vista, like each release from Microsoft has things that seem to have 
been changed for the hell of it. Vista is no different. The main 
problems I have with it are that it does not contain support for the FAX 
modem. You either need one of the higher priced versions of vista, or 
buy a 3rd party package to allow for FAXing. We chose to pay $49 for a 
3rd party package.

We also have a couple XPE (XP Embedded) controlled machines that are on 
the net. Vista has chosen to change the file transfer formats it uses, 
which works fine between vista machines, but requires a patch from 
Microsoft to be able to transfer files to XP machines. This patch does 
not work with XPE. Files can be pulled from the vista machines to XP and 
XPE machines, but you can't send them from the vista machines.

Several years ago I had my computer die on a Saturday evening and needed 
to pick up a new one that day to complete a project. Fry's had one on 
sale for $450, about 80 miles round trip and Wal-Mart had an E-systems 
machine for $500 with monitor for $500, 10 miles round trip. I went with 
the e-systems. It forked well for about 3 years, then cratered. 
E-systems doesn't seem to use the highest quality components. The 
warranty on my computer stated that if I installed any upgrade that 
didn't come from them it would void the warranty. I had several hard 
drives to install, along with more memory, so I went ahead and had no 
problems until the motherboard lost its network port. I didn't have a 
spare slot to install another ethernet card, so I replaced the system.

After the E-systems computer died I bought another machine and moved 
everything to it. The E-systems monitor (CRT) was connected as a second 
monitor. It lasted about another year before it died.

Yes, viruses can be sent from computer to computer inbedded in files. I 
use AVG virus software and haven't had it miss a virus that I know 
about. They have a free version, and some other pay versions.

That's my dealings with both vista and E-systems and anti-virus 
software. YMMV

Peace,
Pat


Thusly spake David C.:
<snip>

A few of the on line retailers still sell XP machines for a couple 
hundred bucks, less monitor.  However, the local Fry's has a weekend 
special on an E Machines PC with everything I need for $249 (after the 
inevitable rebate), with Vista.

<snip>

The other question is security.  I run current Norton on my desktop 
machine and I'm pretty sure it's clean, but you never know what kind of 
sneaky malware is hiding on your machine.  If I pull files and 
applications off my Maxtor drive, am I taking a chance that unwanted 
malicious files could also hitchhike?  The alternative would be to load 
the apps on the new machine manually, but for some, like Office, I no 
longer have the disks.  (I do have a DVD for Office 2007; tried it; 
hated it.)

Thanks
Dave C
____________

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tvacc at lotusowners.com  Sun Aug 10 18:51:43 2008
From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:51:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <86337C22ACCC464EAA1F0EED3869E8FB@amicroinc.local>
References: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com><BAY123-W473B11E3310BA2365A056DE1760@phx.gbl><489E5687.40100@verizon.net>
	<86337C22ACCC464EAA1F0EED3869E8FB@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <00e801c8fb4c$6cf87e50$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>

Pat posted....

"Yes, viruses can be sent from computer to computer inbedded in files. I 
use AVG virus software and haven't had it miss a virus that I know 
about. They have a free version, and some other pay versions."


We regularly see Viruses and Spyware and PUPs (Potentially Unwanted
Programs) that both Norton, AVG and Mcafee miss but Eset catches.

Lately one they are all missing is the fake "windows anti-virus spyware"
spyware issue.

I truly don't understand why people don't want to pay $58 for 2 years of
great anti-virus protection (ESET.com). The data you have on your computer
is worth a heck of lot more than that both in time and what you actually
have. 

I deal with this EVERY DAY on a variety of platforms..users...programs and
people of different ages...social economic
backgrounds....ethnic....hobbies...

Depending how a computer is used...what sites you go to...who you get your
email from...your habits...all sorts of different scenarios crop up. It
amazes me how the most seemingly normal people end up with the most
outrageous computer issues.

Tony V

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 10 19:33:51 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:33:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <00e801c8fb4c$6cf87e50$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>
References: <c2d.3f3bbddc.35ce849a@aol.com><BAY123-W473B11E3310BA2365A056DE1760@phx.gbl><489E5687.40100@verizon.net>
	<86337C22ACCC464EAA1F0EED3869E8FB@amicroinc.local> 
	<00e801c8fb4c$6cf87e50$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W2229C93D26213F11278AFF9A710@phx.gbl>

AVG has consistently gotten high marks as a free AV program.

In addition to buying AV, make sure it is always running and always updating.
Renew it every year, as researchers have found that people assume that b/c AV
is running, they're safe, but aren't aware that keeping up to date virus
definitions is just as important.

There has been alot of noise in the IT security field that AV is no longer
effective, but I'd have to disagree slightly.  Sure, it is relatively easy now
to bypass AV, and other security layers at the enterprise level should
compensate for this, but our organization's AV (Symantec) has always been the
first sign that something was amiss, though it doesn't always prevent an
attack, it does do a decent job detecting it, so there is no excuse not to run
it.

If you have teenagers, I would consider quarantining them on another computer,
separate from one you might use for banking, online shopping, or other
senstive work.  Too many viruses I've found on home computers usually point
back to something the teenage kid was doing.  They do their social networking
over there, you do your banking/shopping over here.  Unless your teenagers
have credit cards, are plugging in their SSNs somewhere, or managing their
wealth (hah) online, their is much less to worry about.

I've personally investigated many computer compromises that were launched from
benign websites... the local flowershop's website, school, etc.  Attackers are
using automated tools to attack and compromise any website they can, infecting
it with scripts that will then attack your computer when you visit the site.
The greater number of sites they infect, the greater chance of spreading their
malware.  Running a browser like Firefox with the NoScript addon will reduce
the number of scripts running each time you load a page.

-PJ

> From: tvacc at lotusowners.com
> To: Pat at HorneSystemstx.com; cavanadd at verizon.net
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:51:43 -0400
> CC: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
>
> Pat posted....
>
> "Yes, viruses can be sent from computer to computer inbedded in files. I
> use AVG virus software and haven't had it miss a virus that I know
> about. They have a free version, and some other pay versions."
>
>
> We regularly see Viruses and Spyware and PUPs (Potentially Unwanted
> Programs) that both Norton, AVG and Mcafee miss but Eset catches.
>
> Lately one they are all missing is the fake "windows anti-virus spyware"
> spyware issue.
>
> I truly don't understand why people don't want to pay $58 for 2 years of
> great anti-virus protection (ESET.com). The data you have on your computer
> is worth a heck of lot more than that both in time and what you actually
> have.
>
> I deal with this EVERY DAY on a variety of platforms..users...programs and
> people of different ages...social economic
> backgrounds....ethnic....hobbies...
>
> Depending how a computer is used...what sites you go to...who you get your
> email from...your habits...all sorts of different scenarios crop up. It
> amazes me how the most seemingly normal people end up with the most
> outrageous computer issues.
>
> Tony V


_________________________________________________________________
Get more from your digital life.  Find out how.

From battmain at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 10 21:23:40 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
Message-ID: <244031.53057.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'd stay away from the e-thing. Dell has weekend specials
and you'd do much
better with them, although I know there
are better brands out there. If there
is one thing that Dell
did right was the service tag. I can find driver stuff
on their
website to fix some ancient Dells.
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



-----
Original Message ----
From: David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net>
To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2008 10:46:31 PM
Subject:
[Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista

It's about time to upgrade to a new
computer. (snip)

From pethier at comcast.net  Sun Aug 10 21:27:32 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 03:27:32 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT: Windows Vista
Message-ID: <081120080327.22946.489FB1A40003C988000059A222165384969D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> FWIW, my advice would be to avoid Vista, especially on an entry-level
> machine.  I know lots of folks that are so disgusted with it that they went
> back to XP (even the IT department at work); 

Our computer guys refused to "upgrade" our work machines to Vista.  We still all run on XP.

At home?  Mac, all the way.  Had enough Windows headaches, thanks.


--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From dreinsch at swbell.net  Tue Aug 12 03:32:48 2008
From: dreinsch at swbell.net (Dwade Reinsch)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] TV Switch to digital broadcasting
Message-ID: <379795.41626.qm@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Being old and poor, I''m not planning to replacing my TV's as we switch to
digital broadcasting, but plan to get converter boxes for all three of my
current TV's.
I got my $40 coupon a few days ago and picked up a GE brand box
for the first TV.  I've installed it and everything works fine EXCEPT (this is
where I need help from the list) I'm not able to skip or turn off the channels
that I do not want tosee as I push the channel change button.  I'm receiving
about 35 total channels now but 4 are weather channels, and 10+ are Spanish
channels.  When I'm channel surfing, I'd like to skip over those channels and
just go to the channels I usually watch.  
Is this possible with a converter
box?  Do I need to buy a more expensive box to get this function?  Has anyone
else had this problem.
Thanks in advance.
Dwade

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Tue Aug 12 04:21:29 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 06:21:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] TV Switch to digital broadcasting
In-Reply-To: <379795.41626.qm@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001101c8fc65$2f368de0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

35 channels? Sounds like you are on cable, not getting over-the-air
signals......if so, you don't need a converter at all.....they are only
necessary if you receive over-the-air signals....

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Dwade Reinsch
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:33 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] TV Switch to digital broadcasting


Being old and poor, I''m not planning to replacing my TV's as we switch to
digital broadcasting, but plan to get converter boxes for all three of my
current TV's. I got my $40 coupon a few days ago and picked up a GE brand
box for the first TV.  I've installed it and everything works fine EXCEPT
(this is where I need help from the list) I'm not able to skip or turn off
the channels that I do not want tosee as I push the channel change button.
I'm receiving about 35 total channels now but 4 are weather channels, and
10+ are Spanish channels.  When I'm channel surfing, I'd like to skip over
those channels and just go to the channels I usually watch.
Is this possible with a converter
box?  Do I need to buy a more expensive box to get this function?  Has
anyone else had this problem. Thanks in advance. Dwade
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Tue Aug 12 04:28:34 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 06:28:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT---more on Windows Vista
Message-ID: <001201c8fc66$2e2c0640$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

Here is a question for the few Windows Vista experts out there.....

I got a call from one of my friends who recently bought a new notebook with
Vista on it. He said when he starts up he gets a message which says
something to this effect,,,,"Definitions file is not up to date. Please
download new definitions."  I asked him if there was anything to indicate if
this message was from Windows or Norton.....he said there was no indication.
He says that when he ignores it, it goes away and everything seems to work
OK.

I searched in my Windows XP for something that looked like that and found
nothing. Frankly, it sounds sort of like an AV thing but I am not sure,,,,,,
do any of you people have any ideas?

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 12 05:00:55 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT---more on Windows Vista
Message-ID: <421760.39939.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hover the mouse cursor over every icon in the lower right
corner until the information shows up. Chances are the
proper one will show up. Also on the error, most of
them identifies the box with a label either on the top or
somewhere in the box itself. 
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



----- Original Message ----
From: Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com>
To: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:28:34 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT---more on Windows Vista

Here is a question for the few Windows Vista experts out there.....
(snip)

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 12 05:59:11 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:59:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT---more on Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <001201c8fc66$2e2c0640$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <001201c8fc66$2e2c0640$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W38B91E32182CB734CEB069A700@phx.gbl>

That's definitely an AV program.  Usually you get AV preinstalled with a new
Windows machine and a free 30-day or something trial offer.  Then you need to
purchase a license to keep getting updates - highly recommended.  This goes
back to my last post... just b/c you click OK everyday, the message goes away,
and everything seems OK... it is not... each day you are one more day behind
the curve on defending your computer.

PJ> From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net> Date: Tue,
12 Aug 2008 06:28:34 -0400> Subject: [Shop-talk] OT---more on Windows Vista> >
Here is a question for the few Windows Vista experts out there.....> > I got a
call from one of my friends who recently bought a new notebook with> Vista on
it. He said when he starts up he gets a message which says> something to this
effect,,,,"Definitions file is not up to date. Please> download new
definitions." I asked him if there was anything to indicate if> this message
was from Windows or Norton.....he said there was no indication.> He says that
when he ignores it, it goes away and everything seems to work> OK.> > I
searched in my Windows XP for something that looked like that and found>
nothing. Frankly, it sounds sort of like an AV thing but I am not sure,,,,,,>
do any of you people have any ideas?
_________________________________________________________________
Get more from your digital life.  Find out how.
http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home2_082008

From opposumking at verizon.net  Tue Aug 12 06:38:11 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:38:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] TV Switch to digital broadcasting
References: <379795.41626.qm@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001101c8fc78$50478a80$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Normally it's in your "setup" then "channel selection".  You can x out the 
channels you don't want to see.

This only works when surfing with the + and - button, if you specifically 
type in a channel number, you'll get the 1st one.  For example, if you're 
blocking 2-1 because it's the HD wide format (2-2 is the normal TV format), 
you'll still get 2-1 if you press the 2 button.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dwade Reinsch" <dreinsch at swbell.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:32 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] TV Switch to digital broadcasting


> I got my $40 coupon a few days ago and picked up a GE brand box
> for the first TV.  I've installed it and everything works fine EXCEPT 
> (this is
> where I need help from the list) I'm not able to skip or turn off the 
> channels
> that I do not want tosee as I push the channel change button.  I'm 
> receiving
> about 35 total channels now but 4 are weather channels, and 10+ are 
> Spanish
> channels.  When I'm channel surfing, I'd like to skip over those channels 
> and
> just go to the channels I usually watch.
> Is this possible with a converter
> box?  Do I need to buy a more expensive box to get this function?  Has 
> anyone
> else had this problem.

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Aug 12 10:21:11 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:21:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shockwave <Non-Shop Related, but assitance requested>
Message-ID: <OFD8DDD568.AE027C88-ON852574A3.0059D481-852574A3.0059D487@mail.megageek.com>

OK, sorry for the non shop talk interject here, but I need some help from
the internet's finest IT think tank!

As the Squadron Historian (don't ask), I have to keep alot of records,
files, photos, videos, and etc.

I wanted to start putting together some movies and such to make more
dramatic presentations.

I want to do some basic Shockwave stuff and some basic video editing
stuff. (like making movie/music videos and such.)

What software for the PC is easy to learn (and preferably free) for both
types of editing? Is there a FAQ or other websites that focus on
beginners?

Thanks in advance. I get my leave in 6 days, then I'm back off to Iraq!




Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 12 12:51:54 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:51:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] TV Switch to digital broadcasting
In-Reply-To: <001101c8fc65$2f368de0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <379795.41626.qm@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<001101c8fc65$2f368de0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808121151s210ced8dr90a64f22453e21eb@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 6:21 AM, Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> wrote:
> 35 channels? Sounds like you are on cable, not getting over-the-air
> signals......if so, you don't need a converter at all.....they are only
> necessary if you receive over-the-air signals....
>

No, there are lots of digital over-the-air stations.  It's possible
for digital channels to have mulitple subchannels.


  Here, I get six analog stations (well, five, one is broken).
Several of them have three or four digital sub-channels.  They all
show the HD version of the network, often have a SD version of network
on digital, plus another channel or two.  One of those is often a
weather map.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug 12 13:27:38 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:27:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
Message-ID: <0FD1F0949F65434DA80277FE0AFFF30E@KARL>

OK, since we're on computers, I have a real problem with Java applications.
Anything written in Java takes forever to load, and boy am I sick of seeing
their stupid little coffee cup for minutes at a time while waiting for a
weather map or some business data site to open up.  When the evil Microsoft
empire had their own J-script Java substitute in Windows, everything was fine
and Java apps ran fine.  Since J-script was eliminated and I have to use
actual Java, Java apps are glacial.

Googling "Java slow" or similar gets lots of programmer discussions about
whether or not Java is actually slow to compile or whatever, but nothing about
an end-user's experience of slowness.

What alternatives are there ??  I've updated Java, etc., but no help.  Looks
like J-script isn't an option with XP ??

P-III 1000 MHz Dell laptop, 512 MB RAM (all it can address), XP with the
latest Service Pack and updates from MS Update.

And yeah, I know I need a new computer, but the four computers I've built or
purchased since getting this one have been for the kids for college.  Besides,
I don't do anything important on my laptop except, well, 100% of my work.....

Thanks !
Karl


"Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire."  (I came, I saw, I want to go home.)

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 12 13:35:43 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:35:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
In-Reply-To: <0FD1F0949F65434DA80277FE0AFFF30E@KARL>
References: <0FD1F0949F65434DA80277FE0AFFF30E@KARL>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W4424CC5C09A1E20E3F22539A700@phx.gbl>

No idea on that one, but possibly a different browser could improve the
situation.  Firefox 3 is much better than IE (imho) and faster.

Maybe reinstalling Java?  I've seen various versions not play nice with
certain web apps, sites, etc. Maybe uninstall and try a slightly older
version.

PJ> From: kvacek at ameritech.net> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net> Date: Tue, 12
Aug 2008 14:27:38 -0500> Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow> > OK,
since we're on computers, I have a real problem with Java applications.>
Anything written in Java takes forever to load, and boy am I sick of seeing>
their stupid little coffee cup for minutes at a time while waiting for a>
weather map or some business data site to open up. When the evil Microsoft>
empire had their own J-script Java substitute in Windows, everything was fine>
and Java apps ran fine. Since J-script was eliminated and I have to use>
actual Java, Java apps are glacial.> > Googling "Java slow" or similar gets
lots of programmer discussions about> whether or not Java is actually slow to
compile or whatever, but nothing about> an end-user's experience of slowness.>
> What alternatives are there ?? I've updated Java, etc., but no help. Looks>
like J-script isn't an option with XP ??> > P-III 1000 MHz Dell laptop, 512 MB
RAM (all it can address), XP with the> latest Service Pack and updates from MS
Update.> > And yeah, I know I need a new computer, but the four computers I've
built or> purchased since getting this one have been for the kids for college.
Besides,> I don't do anything important on my laptop except, well, 100% of my
work.....> > Thanks !> Karl
_________________________________________________________________
Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows Live.
http://revealyourinnerathlete.windowslive.com?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WLY
IA_whichathlete_us

From tvacc at lotusowners.com  Tue Aug 12 14:11:10 2008
From: tvacc at lotusowners.com (Tony Vaccaro)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:11:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT---more on Windows Vista
In-Reply-To: <438D2FD139D24B2C872107019BC98019@amicroinc.local>
References: <438D2FD139D24B2C872107019BC98019@amicroinc.local>
Message-ID: <00ee01c8fcb7$90bbca60$6e01a8c0@amicroinc.local>

That is some sort of preinstalled AV program. 

Remove it and install www.eset.com

But keep in mind that there is a malware/spyware program going around that
give s similar message. But it is more like..."update your Windows
Anti-Virus"

Obviously don't click on it.

Tony V

I got a call from one of my friends who recently bought a new notebook with
Vista on it. He said when he starts up he gets a message which says
something to this effect,,,,"Definitions file is not up to date. Please
download new definitions."  I asked him if there was anything to indicate if
this message was from Windows or Norton.....he said there was no indication.
He says that when he ignores it, it goes away and everything seems to work
OK.

I searched in my Windows XP for something that looked like that and found
nothing. Frankly, it sounds sort of like an AV thing but I am not sure,,,,,,
do any of you people have any ideas?
_______________________________________________

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 12 14:50:02 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
Message-ID: <374596.39808.qm@web57015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

That's probably going to be the machine. :)   Jscript 
is still available on
the MS website and I think the 
current version is 5.6 and it is compatible
with XP.  
I last checked a month ago. 
FWIW, I have an old 1.1ghz laptop that
I use as a 
print server. When I boot it up to print something, I 
walk away
and return about 10 mins later. If I use IE 
to get into webmail and that
takes another 5-10 mins. 
You could probably experiment with a ram drive and
send your temp directories to it, (like the java cache, 
and the windows temp
directory.) When I did that on 
slower machines, it made a noticeable
improvement 
in speed. Now, with machines as fast as they are, 
I have not
been able to notice a significant improvement 
with those ram drives. You
could also try a USB memory 
stick to accomplish the same thing, although you
would
have to wait until the usb drivers get loaded up.
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



----- Original Message ----
From: Karl Vacek
<kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 12,
2008 3:27:38 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow

OK, since we're on
computers, I have a real problem with Java applications.
Anything written in
Java takes forever to load, and boy am I sick of seeing
their stupid little
coffee cup for minutes at a time while waiting for a
weather map or some
business data site to open up.  When the evil Microsoft
empire had their own
J-script Java substitute in Windows, everything was fine
and Java apps ran
fine.  Since J-script was eliminated and I have to use
actual Java, Java apps
are glacial.
(snip) (snip)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Aug 12 15:24:58 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:24:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
In-Reply-To: <0FD1F0949F65434DA80277FE0AFFF30E@KARL>
References: <0FD1F0949F65434DA80277FE0AFFF30E@KARL>
Message-ID: <3BAADCE16B724A36950CAB8E64A563D8@jdnet.deere.com>

> What alternatives are there ?? 

Haven't tried it myself, but a friend swears that Linux runs orders of
magnitude faster than Windows on those old machines.  If you don't need any
special-purpose applications (like games or such), that might be a way to
go.

No doubt I'll get flamed for saying this, but my home machine was about like
yours until I stuffed in more RAM for editing graphics.  Still running Win2K
Pro, nowhere near as slow as you describe.  You could also try downgrading
to Win2K ...

And I'm assuming you've already done the usual stuff : cleared out
unnecessary processes and features, disabled file indexing, defragmented the
hard drive (including the swap file), cleaned out any spyware, etc.  I'd
also uninstall Norton AV if you have it, it can be an invisible CPU hog.

Randall

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug 12 15:29:20 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:29:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
References: <374596.39808.qm@web57015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <807C4FCE29B34358BF0034F614D254B1@KARL>

The same thing happens on the 2GHz P4 I built 2 years ago.  The slowness is 
in the initial Java start-up, which takes under a minute usually, but on 
some websites several minutes (really).

Booting of my pre-Cambrian laptop takes under a minute, which still matches 
pretty well to most computers.  I do start more crap than I'd prefer, but I 
do control start-up apps and these are pretty much what I've settled on. 
Actually, besides spending so much on kids' tuition and getting them new 
computers, etc, I really haven't found it that necessary to have a faster 
machine.  I run Word and Excel lall day every day, along with snagging stuff 
off various Internet data sites.  The only time the computer itself is 
maddeningly slow is when it's doing some dedicated thing like a defrag, 
virus scan, etc., and that's pretty much scheduled for off-hours.

I tried downloading J-script a month or two ago, but ran into some snag - 
don't remember what it was, but it just wasn't happening and I was short on 
time so I quit trying.

As far as FireFart, BTDT.  But not to be an old curmudgeon I just downloaded 
and installed their latest version and tried it again.  Java starts the same 
way but a bit slower than IE, and FireFox itself starts significantly slower 
than IE, which itself starts fairly quickly.

I still think it's Java.  Like Adopey, they seem to hate PC's and want to 
make everything they write run poorly on a PC so the user will blame the PC.

Oh well.  If Java weren't such a hog I'd leave it running all the time.

Thanks!
Karl





> That's probably going to be the machine. :)   Jscript
> is still available on
> the MS website and I think the
> current version is 5.6 and it is compatible
> with XP.
> I last checked a month ago.
> FWIW, I have an old 1.1ghz laptop that
> I use as a
> print server. When I boot it up to print something, I
> walk away
> and return about 10 mins later. If I use IE
> to get into webmail and that
> takes another 5-10 mins.
> You could probably experiment with a ram drive and
> send your temp directories to it, (like the java cache,
> and the windows temp
> directory.) When I did that on
> slower machines, it made a noticeable
> improvement
> in speed. Now, with machines as fast as they are,
> I have not
> been able to notice a significant improvement
> with those ram drives. You
> could also try a USB memory
> stick to accomplish the same thing, although you
> would
> have to wait until the usb drivers get loaded up.
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Karl Vacek
> <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12,
> 2008 3:27:38 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
>
> OK, since we're on
> computers, I have a real problem with Java applications.
> Anything written in
> Java takes forever to load, and boy am I sick of seeing
> their stupid little
> coffee cup for minutes at a time while waiting for a
> weather map or some
> business data site to open up.  When the evil Microsoft
> empire had their own
> J-script Java substitute in Windows, everything was fine
> and Java apps ran
> fine.  Since J-script was eliminated and I have to use
> actual Java, Java apps
> are glacial.
> (snip) (snip)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug 12 15:48:23 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:48:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
References: <0FD1F0949F65434DA80277FE0AFFF30E@KARL>
	<3BAADCE16B724A36950CAB8E64A563D8@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <AB0A5C7A7F63455B8842D28B77C8C5FF@KARL>

Actually, I "downgraded" to Win2K when I got this machine, as it came with 
XP Home.  I had had a series of warrantee repairs with my previous Dell and 
they finally sent me this machine that was a model up and had more of 
everything than the one I had bought, but it had XP home on it.  2 years ago 
I finally replaced the HDD for insurance (and over 4x more space) and 
installed XP Pro.  No noticeable performance difference from Win2K, much to 
my relief.  As I recall XP was up to SP2 by the time I put it in, so maybe 
that helped.

I'd add RAM but I've always been at the published limit.  If I had a larger 
SODIMM to try I'd do it, but I'm not inclined to buy a bigger RAM stick 
unless I have a reasonable belief it'll be addressed.  The following version 
of my laptop allowed up to 1GB, but not this one.

As far as defrag, caches, start-up apps, etc., I'm pretty aggressive about 
that stuff.  I've been running IOBit Smart Defrag in the background for 6 
months or so and it's done a fine job with no noticeable overhead.  It seems 
to shut down at the first hint that I want the computer for myself.  I also 
run CCleaner and EasyClean every month or so to do a littel housekeeping.

Norton ?  Ummm, not for years.  Once I was a 100% Norton believer, but their 
stuff has been soooo piggy for many years now.  Besides their sneaky credit 
card schemes and high prices, it's also essentially impossible to actually 
speak to a person there unless it's to read him your credit card number. 
Lose an activation code ?  Tough.

I've tried lots of AV software, including the highly-touted AVG, but nothing 
has been very satisfactory.  AVG's Control Center bogs my computer down so 
much that I'd only run it occasionally to get updated virus defs, and then I 
shut down the Control Center again in order to be able to use the machine. 
It wasn't important for anything, the AV portion ran all the time anyway. 
I've tried several other free ones.  And since I've cleaned viruses off 
maybe 5 MacAfee-equipped machines with their latest virus defs (years ago) I 
just won't even try that.  On Tony Vaccaro's recommendation from the other 
day I just installed NOD32.  Heard about it for years, and so far so good, 
but we'll see after a few days.

Thanks!
Karl



>> What alternatives are there ??
>
> Haven't tried it myself, but a friend swears that Linux runs orders of
> magnitude faster than Windows on those old machines.  If you don't need 
> any
> special-purpose applications (like games or such), that might be a way to
> go.
>
> No doubt I'll get flamed for saying this, but my home machine was about 
> like
> yours until I stuffed in more RAM for editing graphics.  Still running 
> Win2K
> Pro, nowhere near as slow as you describe.  You could also try downgrading
> to Win2K ...
>
> And I'm assuming you've already done the usual stuff : cleared out
> unnecessary processes and features, disabled file indexing, defragmented 
> the
> hard drive (including the swap file), cleaned out any spyware, etc.  I'd
> also uninstall Norton AV if you have it, it can be an invisible CPU hog.
>
> Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 12 15:57:54 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:57:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
In-Reply-To: <807C4FCE29B34358BF0034F614D254B1@KARL>
References: <374596.39808.qm@web57015.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<807C4FCE29B34358BF0034F614D254B1@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808121457s64e005d3yb520aa6f46d39f1f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> I still think it's Java.  Like Adopey, they seem to hate PC's and want to
> make everything they write run poorly on a PC so the user will blame the PC.
>

When you start a java applet that's on a website, you have to down
load the applet.  If it's big, that can take some time, if you or they
have a slow or overloaded network connection.

Are any of these on public sites that you can tell us what you're doing?


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug 12 16:02:20 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:02:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
References: <374596.39808.qm@web57015.mail.re3.yahoo.com><807C4FCE29B34358BF0034F614D254B1@KARL>
	<2400a5d40808121457s64e005d3yb520aa6f46d39f1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C0AC058C9864FC6ABC64757D266E4B5@KARL>

Here's the NWS site I visit whenever I want real-time local radar.  Once 
it's running, downloading new maps for a different area, different view, 
etc., still takes some time, particularly when looping beacuse it's 
downloading lots of images (I have 6 Meg DSL, by the way), but what I'm 
complaining about is the initial start-up when I see the Java coffee cup 
logo for a half a minute or more.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ridge/radar.php?product=NCR&rid=LOT&loop=yes


>> I still think it's Java.  Like Adopey, they seem to hate PC's and want to
>> make everything they write run poorly on a PC so the user will blame the 
>> PC.
>>
>
> When you start a java applet that's on a website, you have to down
> load the applet.  If it's big, that can take some time, if you or they
> have a slow or overloaded network connection.
>
> Are any of these on public sites that you can tell us what you're doing?
>
>
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com  Tue Aug 12 16:39:48 2008
From: Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com (Pat)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:39:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
In-Reply-To: <3C0AC058C9864FC6ABC64757D266E4B5@KARL>
References: <374596.39808.qm@web57015.mail.re3.yahoo.com><807C4FCE29B34358BF0034F614D254B1@KARL>
	<2400a5d40808121457s64e005d3yb520aa6f46d39f1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3C0AC058C9864FC6ABC64757D266E4B5@KARL>
Message-ID: <48A21134.7030104@HorneSystemsTx.com>

It took my machine on a 3 Meg wisp 45 seconds to come up from the time I 
clicked your link. Xp SP2, AMD Sempron processor, 1.6 GHz, 768 MB ram, 
59 processes running.


Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Karl Vacek:
> Here's the NWS site I visit whenever I want real-time local radar.  Once 
> it's running, downloading new maps for a different area, different view, 
> etc., still takes some time, particularly when looping beacuse it's 
> downloading lots of images (I have 6 Meg DSL, by the way), but what I'm 
> complaining about is the initial start-up when I see the Java coffee cup 
> logo for a half a minute or more.
>
> http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ridge/radar.php?product=NCR&rid=LOT&loop=yes
>
>
>   
>>> I still think it's Java.  Like Adopey, they seem to hate PC's and want to
>>> make everything they write run poorly on a PC so the user will blame the 
>>> PC.
>>>
>>>       
>> When you start a java applet that's on a website, you have to down
>> load the applet.  If it's big, that can take some time, if you or they
>> have a slow or overloaded network connection.
>>
>> Are any of these on public sites that you can tell us what you're doing?
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> David Scheidt
>> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1608 - Release Date: 8/12/2008 4:59 PM
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Aug 12 23:19:00 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:19:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
In-Reply-To: <48A21134.7030104@HorneSystemsTx.com>
Message-ID: <20080813051859.KOKG13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

I just barely caught the coffee cup logo you're talking about on a 2.6GHz P4
w/1.5gig RAM and a 5Mbit (down) cable modem.  About 5 seconds total from
clicking the link to the end of the first refresh.  And most of that was
download time, as CPU usage averaged less than 50%.

Not counting how long it took to install Sun's Java.
Randall

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+tr3driver=ca.rr.com at autox.team.net 
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+tr3driver=ca.rr.com at autox.team.net] 
> On Behalf Of Pat
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:40 PM
> To: Karl Vacek
> Cc: shoptalk; David Scheidt
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] OT - Java is sloooow
> 
> It took my machine on a 3 Meg wisp 45 seconds to come up from 
> the time I clicked your link. Xp SP2, AMD Sempron processor, 
> 1.6 GHz, 768 MB ram,
> 59 processes running.
> 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Thusly spake Karl Vacek:
> > Here's the NWS site I visit whenever I want real-time local radar.  
> > Once it's running, downloading new maps for a different area, 
> > different view, etc., still takes some time, particularly 
> when looping 
> > beacuse it's downloading lots of images (I have 6 Meg DSL, by the 
> > way), but what I'm complaining about is the initial start-up when I 
> > see the Java coffee cup logo for a half a minute or more.
> >
> > http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ridge/radar.php?product=NCR&rid=LOT&loop=yes
> >
> >
> >   
> >>> I still think it's Java.  Like Adopey, they seem to hate PC's and 
> >>> want to make everything they write run poorly on a PC so the user 
> >>> will blame the PC.
> >>>
> >>>       
> >> When you start a java applet that's on a website, you have to down 
> >> load the applet.  If it's big, that can take some time, if you or 
> >> they have a slow or overloaded network connection.
> >>
> >> Are any of these on public sites that you can tell us what 
> you're doing?
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Scheidt
> >> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> >>     
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > You are subscribed as pat at hornesystemstx.com
> >
> > Shop-talk mailing list
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> >
> > http://www.team.net/archive
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1608 - Release Date: 
> > 8/12/2008 4:59 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> --
> Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
> (512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
> Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
> www.hornesystemstx.com
> -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand 
> OUT -- _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as tr3driver at ca.rr.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Aug 13 14:16:59 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:16:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
Message-ID: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>

I need to strip a bunch of hinges of years of oil & latex paint. All  
the strippers I found at ACE are 'super thick cling" which doesn't  
make a nice dip & strip setup. Anything out there that will do the  
job? Preferably without MEK or other really nasty chemicals. I can  
let this sit for a few days.

thanks,
jim

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Aug 13 14:29:16 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:29:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
References: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <bdde53220808131329l359bf69cx390affb2441bb21@mail.gmail.com>

Well, you've eliminated my answer.  What's wrong with MEK?  It's not
that nasty a chemical.  It stinks, but you can set this up in a shed
or back porch or something and let it go.  What I would do if I were
you is put the parts into a container and soak them in MEK until the
bulk has been removed.  Then I'd transfer them into clean solvent to
finish them up.

-Paul

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> I need to strip a bunch of hinges of years of oil & latex paint. All
> the strippers I found at ACE are 'super thick cling" which doesn't
> make a nice dip & strip setup. Anything out there that will do the
> job? Preferably without MEK or other really nasty chemicals. I can
> let this sit for a few days.
>
> thanks,
> jim

From bill at gingerich.us  Wed Aug 13 15:04:24 2008
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:04:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
References: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <46726242A156490D9D2E7B9F27CD273C@shack2>

Jim,

I'm going to take a different approach here.  How about Simple Green to get
the oil or grease off first.  Then depending on the hinge itself, use a wire
wheel or bead blaster for the rest.  Of course, this assumes you have a
blasting setup, or know someone who does.

Anyway, just an idea.

BillG
Newalla, OK



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Franklin
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:17 PM
To: Shop Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?

I need to strip a bunch of hinges of years of oil & latex paint. All  
the strippers I found at ACE are 'super thick cling" which doesn't  
make a nice dip & strip setup. Anything out there that will do the  
job? Preferably without MEK or other really nasty chemicals. I can  
let this sit for a few days.

thanks,
jim

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Aug 13 16:29:37 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:29:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
References: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <91B9D0957854412C9A07EC00B8D1F216@KARL>

The really nasty (but unfortunately effective too) ingredient isn't MEK 
(methyl ethyl ketone), it's methylene chloride.  Been identified as a potent 
carcinogen for decades.

3M makes a product called "Safest Stripper" with a weak acid (unusual type, 
but I can't remember what it is).  It takes longer, but works OK on most 
typical coatings, but not so great on 2-part coatings.  You can coat the 
hinges with stripper and then keep them in zip-lock bags or similar.

There are also limonene-based strippers like Citrustrip that work OK on 
single-component coatings like house paint, varnish, etc.

Good luck !

Karl




>I need to strip a bunch of hinges of years of oil & latex paint. All
> the strippers I found at ACE are 'super thick cling" which doesn't
> make a nice dip & strip setup. Anything out there that will do the
> job? Preferably without MEK or other really nasty chemicals. I can
> let this sit for a few days.
>
> thanks,
> jim

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Aug 13 20:32:13 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:32:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
References: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <48A3992D.9060207@verizon.net>

I was in the Orange Borg the other day to buy a gallon of regular Jasco 
extra strength paint stripper.  I saw they had Kleen Strip "sprayable" 
stripper:   http://tinyurl.com/63lbef

You might give it a try; it should work as a dip and strip, but I'm sure 
it's got metheylene chloride in it.

Jim Franklin wrote:
> I need to strip a bunch of hinges of years of oil & latex paint. All  
> the strippers I found at ACE are 'super thick cling" which doesn't  
> make a nice dip & strip setup. Anything out there that will do the  
> job? Preferably without MEK or other really nasty chemicals. I can  
> let this sit for a few days.
> 
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Aug 13 20:37:39 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:37:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
References: <AD9B4AC2-0C52-49F1-9249-818A355955D9@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <48A39A73.8000006@verizon.net>

Another old fashioned way to remove the paint would be to go to the 
hardware store and get a can of lye and mix up a solution of lye and hot 
water and soak the hinges in this for a couple of days.  You could also 
spray them down with oven cleaner; it will eventually remove paint, 
given enough time.  It also makes a good engine degreaser, if you don't 
mind the paint coming off, too.  Makes a nasty mess on the driveway, 
though....

All the usual precautions apply; lye solution is kinda nasty.

The concentrated purple cleaner/degreasers sold at auto parts stores 
will also strip paint when used full strength.

Dave C



Jim Franklin wrote:
> I need to strip a bunch of hinges of years of oil & latex paint. All  
> the strippers I found at ACE are 'super thick cling" which doesn't  
> make a nice dip & strip setup. Anything out there that will do the  
> job? Preferably without MEK or other really nasty chemicals. I can  
> let this sit for a few days.
> 
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Aug 13 20:39:47 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:39:47 -1200
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
Message-ID: <48a39af3.ab.147c4.320994873@ml2.myemail.com>

Got any old brake fluid? 

It'd probably be expensive to buy for just that purpose
however.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
Login from home, work, school.  Anywhere!

From crothfuss at coastalnet.com  Thu Aug 14 06:13:54 2008
From: crothfuss at coastalnet.com (crothfuss at coastalnet.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:13:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
Message-ID: <6210053.1218716034691.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Old brake fluid, as Eric suggested, would do the trick since you're not in a hurry.  
Auto shops that do flushes oughto have enough used stuff to let you take a quart.

There are some "safe" aircraft coating removers out there, like the two gallons I 
carried on a commercial aircraft to Japan. (try that nowadays!) I stripped my whole
car with the stuff, and it was "safe to handle", until it came into contact with 
paint.  I got a glob of the disolved paint slop on my chest, and it painlessly 
ate a hole through several layers of my skin before I even felt it.  Truly evil stuff.

I was thinking that if you didn't overheat them, you could probably use a propane
torch and a wire brush to get the old paint off, if that isn't too much like work.

Chuck

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug 14 07:08:43 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:08:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <48A39A73.8000006@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <610855.98264.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Oven cleaner is great for removing baked-on layers of
dirt and grease, like what covers many old car
drivetrain and suspension parts.  It definitely
removes old paint, and often rather quickly.

You need the original extra-nasty genuine yellow-can
Easy-Off brand.  Accept no substitutes.

I was overjoyed when I discovered how well it worked
on my '31 Ford, and I've gone through about 4 bottles
so far.

Doug

--- "David C." <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:

> Another old fashioned way to remove the paint would
> be to go to the 
> hardware store and get a can of lye and mix up a
> solution of lye and hot 
> water and soak the hinges in this for a couple of
> days.  You could also 
> spray them down with oven cleaner; it will
> eventually remove paint, 
> given enough time.  It also makes a good engine
> degreaser, if you don't 
> mind the paint coming off, too.  Makes a nasty mess
> on the driveway, 
> though....

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Aug 14 08:48:33 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:48:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <610855.98264.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <610855.98264.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <737A179C-5163-4820-BC56-8C60B8ADA7A2@groupwbench.org>

After 24 hours, the TSP did a decent job on the latex, fair on the  
oil. I needed to use steel wool to remove the oil paint and that  
killed the patina I was hoping to save.

Simple green, suggested by plastic model builders, did a  
disconcertingly good job, but also completely removed all the patina.  
Bright shiny brass hinge now.

Today I will try oven cleaner and MEK-based stuff (m-e-chloride was  
the stuff I was thinking of, thanks).

Will report tomorrow morning, or sooner if it all goes well.

jim

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Thu Aug 14 12:46:03 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:46:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
Message-ID: <4382458b0808141146j5dc6c0f7q86f8ef895650f8a2@mail.gmail.com>

I use brake fluid a lot for paint stripper, but I found it doesn't
work on latex paint. I had exactly the same need as the OP, get some
paint off some brass hinges.   Brake fluid did not touch it.

-- 
Rex B
Ft Worth TX

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Aug 14 13:41:30 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:41:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <737A179C-5163-4820-BC56-8C60B8ADA7A2@groupwbench.org>
References: <610855.98264.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<737A179C-5163-4820-BC56-8C60B8ADA7A2@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <0K5L001EWW2C7WC0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

You know, there are ways to create that patina.  Of course, it won't 
be the actual authentic original patina, but it will look the same 
and I won't tell.  Here's one link:

http://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/finishes/instant-patina-for-brass/

Or just google for "brass patina" and you'll see lots of other choices.

At 10:48 AM 8/14/2008, Jim Franklin wrote:
>After 24 hours, the TSP did a decent job on the latex, fair on the
>oil. I needed to use steel wool to remove the oil paint and that
>killed the patina I was hoping to save.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Aug 14 13:50:04 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:50:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Liquid paint stripper?
In-Reply-To: <0K5L001EWW2C7WC0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <610855.98264.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<737A179C-5163-4820-BC56-8C60B8ADA7A2@groupwbench.org>
	<0K5L001EWW2C7WC0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <096DEE66-A671-4180-BEC2-21F512CB3F9F@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 14, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:

> You know, there are ways to create that patina.  Of course, it  
> won't be the actual authentic original patina, but it will look the  
> same and I won't tell.  Here's one link:
>
> http://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/finishes/instant-patina- 
> for-brass/
>

Thanks! But I fear by the rust spots after washing off the TSP that I  
have brass-plated hinges, in which case I think I will give up and  
buy ORB hinges that will match the original doorknob patina much  
better than the patina I'm trying to preserve.

jim

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Aug 15 12:06:23 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:06:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
Message-ID: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl>

I am getting ready to buy a new MIG Welder and have some questions of the
group.  To date, I have only used two types of welders: the professional ones
at the welding class I took a few years ago and a very cheap flux core welder
(hi/low and slow/fast switches) that a neighbor gave me.  Whatever I buy will
only be used occasionally.  I want it for light auto repair/restoration and
for home projects.

So, on to my questions.  First, is getting a 220V one worth the loss of
versatility?  I have 100 amp 220 service in my garage where most of my welding
would be done, but this would certainly limit my ability to take it anywhere.
Am I better off just going with a decent 110V model?  Something like a 140 Amp
Hobart Handler
(http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200306073
_200306073)?

Second, how much better will something like the Hobart be with flux core wire
than the cheapo one I have now?  Stated differently, do I really need to go to
the trouble of renting a gas cylinder for my occasional use?  It seems a shame
to go to the expense of renting something that is going to sit unused 350 days
a year.  I know shielding gas will give me a much cleaner weld (and also know
what a crap job my current unit does).  Will I be unhappy with flux core
regardless of how much I spend on the welder?

Finally, shopping around I notice that Northern Industrial sells units under
their own name.  Their 135 amp model
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332691_
200332691) has similar specs to the Hobart, but is $100 less.  Does anyone
know anything about this?  Is the Hobart worth the difference?

As always, thanks in advance!

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger.  Find out how.
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_yaho
o_082008

From edriver at sasktel.net  Fri Aug 15 12:28:05 2008
From: edriver at sasktel.net (E.A. Driver)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:28:05 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48A5CAB5.5000505@sasktel.net>

Not really  I think the Lincoln 180C is the best product in the small 
light weight MIG type welders
Hobart is a Miller clone.

Kind regards
Ed

Jim Stone wrote:
> I am getting ready to buy a new MIG Welder and have some questions of the
> group.  To date, I have only used two types of welders: the professional ones
> at the welding class I took a few years ago and a very cheap flux core welder
> (hi/low and slow/fast switches) that a neighbor gave me.  Whatever I buy will
> only be used occasionally.  I want it for light auto repair/restoration and
> for home projects.
>
> So, on to my questions.  First, is getting a 220V one worth the loss of
> versatility?  I have 100 amp 220 service in my garage where most of my welding
> would be done, but this would certainly limit my ability to take it anywhere.
> Am I better off just going with a decent 110V model?  Something like a 140 Amp
> Hobart Handler
> (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200306073
> _200306073)?
>
> Second, how much better will something like the Hobart be with flux core wire
> than the cheapo one I have now?  Stated differently, do I really need to go to
> the trouble of renting a gas cylinder for my occasional use?  It seems a shame
> to go to the expense of renting something that is going to sit unused 350 days
> a year.  I know shielding gas will give me a much cleaner weld (and also know
> what a crap job my current unit does).  Will I be unhappy with flux core
> regardless of how much I spend on the welder?
>
> Finally, shopping around I notice that Northern Industrial sells units under
> their own name.  Their 135 amp model
> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332691_
> 200332691) has similar specs to the Hobart, but is $100 less.  Does anyone
> know anything about this?  Is the Hobart worth the difference?
>
> As always, thanks in advance!
>
> Jim
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger.  Find out how.
> http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_yaho
> o_082008
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as edriver at sasktel.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Aug 15 12:50:00 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:50:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
References: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl>
	<48A5CAB5.5000505@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <0B5BEAD6AEC84A3CA7B330FED2C3D3F8@KARL>

Actually, Hobart was an old welding-machine manufacturer bought by Miller 
about 10 years ago (as I recall).  Miller now tends to sell similar models 
as Hobart, ofter with a feature or two left off from the Miller model.

If you want to start a Lincoln vs Miller spitting contest, take a look at 
the plastic inside the wire-handling section of the Lincoln, then look at 
the metal used in same places in the Miller.

That said, you'll have a better machine with a name-brand model, and at 
least Hobart/Miller/Lincoln will be able to sell you parts in 10 years. 
Maybe you can adapt available parts for liners and guns, but internal 
machine parts are difficult to substitute.

If you can save enough and don't mind throwing it away when it inevitably 
breaks and you can't buy parts, the cheap model might be an accceptable 
choice.  For me, it's not an option.  I don't believe that "you get what you 
pay for", but I know that you *never* get *more* than you pay for  ;-)

As far as flux-cored vs gas-shielded, it depends on what you'll be doing. 
Flux-cored is just not that good for thin stuff, it spatters, and leaves 
residue.  With gas shielding the welds are more smooth and consistent, 
spatter less, and stay cleaner.  If you're doing only heavy-material 
repairs, flux is OK.  Gas is much nicer overall.

Karl




> Not really  I think the Lincoln 180C is the best product in the small
> light weight MIG type welders
> Hobart is a Miller clone.
>
> Kind regards
> Ed
>
> Jim Stone wrote:
>> I am getting ready to buy a new MIG Welder and have some questions of the
>> group.  To date, I have only used two types of welders: the professional 
>> ones
>> at the welding class I took a few years ago and a very cheap flux core 
>> welder
>> (hi/low and slow/fast switches) that a neighbor gave me.  Whatever I buy 
>> will
>> only be used occasionally.  I want it for light auto repair/restoration 
>> and
>> for home projects.
>>
>> So, on to my questions.  First, is getting a 220V one worth the loss of
>> versatility?  I have 100 amp 220 service in my garage where most of my 
>> welding
>> would be done, but this would certainly limit my ability to take it 
>> anywhere.
>> Am I better off just going with a decent 110V model?  Something like a 
>> 140 Amp
>> Hobart Handler
>> (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200306073
>> _200306073)?
>>
>> Second, how much better will something like the Hobart be with flux core 
>> wire
>> than the cheapo one I have now?  Stated differently, do I really need to 
>> go to
>> the trouble of renting a gas cylinder for my occasional use?  It seems a 
>> shame
>> to go to the expense of renting something that is going to sit unused 350 
>> days
>> a year.  I know shielding gas will give me a much cleaner weld (and also 
>> know
>> what a crap job my current unit does).  Will I be unhappy with flux core
>> regardless of how much I spend on the welder?
>>
>> Finally, shopping around I notice that Northern Industrial sells units 
>> under
>> their own name.  Their 135 amp model
>> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332691_
>> 200332691) has similar specs to the Hobart, but is $100 less.  Does 
>> anyone
>> know anything about this?  Is the Hobart worth the difference?
>>
>> As always, thanks in advance!
>>
>> Jim

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Aug 15 13:10:00 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:10:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
References: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl><48A5CAB5.5000505@sasktel.net>
	<0B5BEAD6AEC84A3CA7B330FED2C3D3F8@KARL>
Message-ID: <48029A352B4B4527B629561DCFCEAF98@KARL>

> Miller now tends to sell similar models
> as Hobart, ofter with a feature or two left off from the Miller model.



Sorry - let's try it in English this time...

Miller now sells some of their models under the Hobart name, but the 
lesser-priced Hobart model ofter lacks a feature or two that the 
corresponding Miller model has.

Karl 

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Fri Aug 15 13:23:25 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:23:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pressure washer; minimum useful pressure
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>

I need to clean dirty car parts, hence I need a pressure washer.

Some local folks say I need at least 2200 PSI to get the job done.

Is this about right?

Is there  better solution?

Budget  is limited to about $500

thanks

Skip

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Aug 15 15:28:17 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:28:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pressure washer; minimum useful pressure
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080815172453.01d13fb8@cox.net>

At 03:23 PM 8/15/2008, Skip Albright wrote:

 >I need to clean dirty car parts, hence I need a pressure washer.
 >Some local folks say I need at least 2200 PSI to get the job done.
 >Is this about right?

Skip,

That sounds like over kill for small parts. :)  If you're trying to clean an
engine or xmission maybe.  But for smaller parts, why not the normal
parts washer basins with the recurlating pump and a brush?

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Aug 15 16:15:14 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:15:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] pressure washer; minimum useful pressure
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <E586F8A6F64B43CAA7E86E213C210624@jdnet.deere.com>

> Some local folks say I need at least 2200 PSI to get the job done.

If memory serves, that is what mine is rated at.  It wouldn't blast more
than maybe 2/3 the grease off a TR gearbox housing; so I had to resort to
the usual scraping and scrubbing to get it off.  Plus it threw little blobs
of grease everywhere.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Aug 15 16:18:14 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:18:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
In-Reply-To: <0B5BEAD6AEC84A3CA7B330FED2C3D3F8@KARL>
References: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl><48A5CAB5.5000505@sasktel.net>
	<0B5BEAD6AEC84A3CA7B330FED2C3D3F8@KARL>
Message-ID: <E92EA107239C4A07BD156D737FB18E9A@jdnet.deere.com>

> If you can save enough and don't mind throwing it away when it inevitably
> breaks and you can't buy parts,

I wonder how true that is, that you can't buy parts for the cheap ones.
Haven't tried with a welder, but I've had good luck with being able to
source other parts from Harbor Freight.  Nothing listed on their website,
but all it took was a phone call to Camarillo.

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Aug 15 16:28:28 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:28:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <44212969C6A14109896AD552332E7535@jdnet.deere.com>

> So, on to my questions.  First, is getting a 220V one worth the loss of
> versatility?  I have 100 amp 220 service in my garage where most of my
> welding
> would be done, but this would certainly limit my ability to take it
> anywhere.

FWIW, there are several models available that will work on either 220v (full
power) or 110v (reduced power).  Just another option to consider.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Aug 15 16:31:47 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:31:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] pressure washer; minimum useful pressure
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808151531r497b11d6q274e5f5a54044c87@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> I need to clean dirty car parts, hence I need a pressure washer.
>
> Some local folks say I need at least 2200 PSI to get the job done.
>
> Is this about right?
>
> Is there  better solution?
>
> Budget  is limited to about $500
>

I took a bunch of biggish parts (diff housing, transmission case) to a
local machine shop.  They've got what looks like a giant dishwasher.
It did a very good job, I forget what they charged, but it wasn't
much, compared to the work of cleaning them myself.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From battmain at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 16 16:53:20 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:53:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pressure washer; minimum useful pressure
Message-ID: <721478.72223.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Sears has a 3100 psi on sale for $450.  I bought a 3000psi
a few years ago
from Lowes. Other than the fuel shutoff
valve going bad, it has held up to
whatever I've thrown at
it. (I bypassed the fuel valve with some fuel line.)
May be overkill for the car parts, but you'll enjoy using a
good unit instead
of bitching at a useless lower pressure
unit. 
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com>
To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 3:23:25 PM
Subject:
[Shop-talk] pressure washer; minimum useful pressure

I need to clean dirty
car parts, hence I need a pressure washer.

Some local folks say I need at
least 2200 PSI to get the job done.

Is this about right?

Is there  better
solution?

Budget  is limited to about $500

thanks

Skip

Nothing is as it
appears
Skip Albright
Glenmont NY
salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
_______________________________________________
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http://www.team.net/donate.html

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From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Aug 16 18:25:06 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W9A01F2F9F1477503CE93FCC6D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <898657.60748.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

One point about Flux-core vs Gas:  With the wire sizes
used by 120 volt welders, you can weld stuff only up
to about .100" thick.  To do thicker stuff, you will
have to switch over to flux-core.  So if you plan to
weld mostly things like angle iron and reasonably
heavy tubing, and not thinner sheet metal, you may use
the gas only a small part of the time.

Also, if you want gas, you should just buy a cylinder.

Also also, I have a good 120 volt welder, and for me,
there has been almost nothing that it was too small
for.  Make sure you have available a 120 volt outlet
on a 20-amp circuit, that is close to the main panel. 
If you must run a new 120-volt circuit a long distance
to the garage, consider upgrading to 10-gauge wire, to
minimize the voltage drop.

Doug


--- Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
 Stated differently,
> do I really need to go to
> the trouble of renting a gas cylinder for my
> occasional use?  It seems a shame
> to go to the expense of renting something that is
> going to sit unused 350 days
> a year.  I know shielding gas will give me a much
> cleaner weld (and also know
> what a crap job my current unit does).  Will I be
> unhappy with flux core
> regardless of how much I spend on the welder?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Aug 16 18:29:17 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] pressure washer; minimum useful pressure
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815152040.02a54840@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <888749.34220.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a Home Depot "Husky" house-brand electric
washer.  It is powerful enough for cleaning car parts.

I think one advantage of a bigger gas model is a
larger flow rate, which lets you clean more square
feet per minute.  That's nice when washing your
driveway, but less important for small jobs.

Doug

--- Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:

> I need to clean dirty car parts, hence I need a
> pressure washer.
> 
> Some local folks say I need at least 2200 PSI to get
> the job done.
> 
> Is this about right?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Aug 16 20:07:35 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:07:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
In-Reply-To: <898657.60748.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080817020734.SLSQ13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> If you must run a new 120-volt circuit a long distance to the 
> garage, consider upgrading to 10-gauge wire, to minimize the 
> voltage drop.

But if you're going to do that, why not run 220v instead?  The cost
difference for the 4th wire is minimal, and with some welders you won't even
need a 4th wire.

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Aug 16 21:47:09 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:47:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG Welders
In-Reply-To: <20080817020734.SLSQ13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <71832.85319.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In case it is needed for something besides the
welder...

Doug


--- Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> > If you must run a new 120-volt circuit a long
> distance to the 
> > garage, consider upgrading to 10-gauge wire, to
> minimize the 
> > voltage drop.
> 
> But if you're going to do that, why not run 220v
> instead?  The cost
> difference for the 4th wire is minimal, and with
> some welders you won't even
> need a 4th wire.
> 
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Sun Aug 17 07:06:45 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:06:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welders
Message-ID: <4382458b0808170606p7bdee4d0h4e60fc1a929caff0@mail.gmail.com>

-- 
Rex B
Ft Worth TX

Jim,
     My needs an usage are almost entirely like yours. I have had 3
low-end 110V welders from Century, Sears, and now Firepower. I have
been happy with all 4, but this Firepower (div of Thermadyne, also
makes Victor torches) welds a little better. Or maybe I'm just getting
more skillful.
    Yesterday I welded some angle iron to 1/4 wall steel tubing, then
welded casters to the same stuff. Worked great, took no time.  I was
looking around the shop for something else needed welding, it was that
pleasurable.
    I would suggest you get the highest amp in a 110V you can get. I
looked at the Hobart Handler 140 before a bargain came up on this
Firepower FP120. Be sure it will work in a 15-amp basic circuit.  Like
you, I wanted the portability.  Get a cart for it, and get an
auto-dark helmet.
    As for gas, get the small bottle and buy it, don't rent. Be aware
that almost all bottles are used and retested every to years. There is
a date code on them. You want that has recently been tested, as the
retest will cost more than the bottle,  Then you exchange it before
the code expires. Just don't be caught with an expired bottle.
   The gas will last quite a long time if you remember to always close
the valves.
   The only advantage to flux-core wire that I know of is if  you are
welding outside and it's windy. Wind can blow the shielding gas away
from the weld pool.  It also makes it more portable, but some welders
have a built-in bottle caddy so you can grab and go.
    Make sure the welder you buy includes the gas kit. Some offer it
as an extra-cost accessory. And some gas kits don't have a gauge,
which you want.
   I think duty cycle may be a good indicator of how well-built the
internals are. 100% means the machine can weld non-stop without
overheating.
   All mine have plastic feed parts. Hasn't been a problem, but I'd
pay more for metal. Just because.

That's about all I know on the subject.  Good luck.

Rex B
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:06:23 -0500
From: Jim Stone <jandkstone99 at msn.com>


I am getting ready to buy a new MIG Welder and have some questions of the
group.  To date, I have only used two types of welders: the professional ones
at the welding class I took a few years ago and a very cheap flux core welder
(hi/low and slow/fast switches) that a neighbor gave me.  Whatever I buy will
only be used occasionally.  I want it for light auto repair/restoration and
for home projects.

So, on to my questions.  First, is getting a 220V one worth the loss of
versatility?  I have 100 amp 220 service in my garage where most of my welding
would be done, but this would certainly limit my ability to take it anywhere.
Am I better off just going with a decent 110V model?  Something like a 140 Amp
Hobart Handler
(http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200306073
_200306073)?

Second, how much better will something like the Hobart be with flux core wire
than the cheapo one I have now?  Stated differently, do I really need to go to
the trouble of renting a gas cylinder for my occasional use?  It seems a shame
to go to the expense of renting something that is going to sit unused 350 days
a year.  I know shielding gas will give me a much cleaner weld (and also know
what a crap job my current unit does).  Will I be unhappy with flux core
regardless of how much I spend on the welder?

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Aug 17 07:20:38 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:20:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing glass in a two pane sliding door?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808170916280.26930@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I have a sliding door with what I think is a normal two pane glass 
arrangement.

While weedwhacking, I apparently managed to flick a rock into the door, 
shattering/spiderwebbing the outer pane in the door.

Can that typically be replaced without replacing the door?  Any process or 
whatever?  Is this a "go to the box store and get a repair kit" type thing 
or ??

Thanks!

Mark

From battmain at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 17 08:54:30 2008
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing glass in a two pane sliding door?
Message-ID: <164505.16787.qm@web57009.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Take the frame to your local glass shop and they should
have it done in no
time. I did that with a large window
and they had it done the same day. It is
rather easy to
do yourself, but consider the frame may not be square
when you
do your measurements. BTDT and gooped up
the gap with silicone. I doubt
anywhere other than a glass
shop will have glass in the door size. (at least
that was
the case in my area.)
Brian
battmain at yahoo.com



----- Original
Message ----
From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>
To:
shop-talk at autox.team.net
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:20:38 AM
Subject:
[Shop-talk] replacing glass in a two pane sliding door?

Howdy,

I have a
sliding door with what I think is a normal two pane glass 
arrangement.

While
weedwhacking, I apparently managed to flick a rock into the door,
shattering/spiderwebbing the outer pane in the door.

Can that typically be
replaced without replacing the door?  Any process or 
whatever?  Is this a "go
to the box store and get a repair kit" type thing 
or ??

Thanks!

Mark
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html

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From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug 17 10:00:29 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:00:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] replacing glass in a two pane sliding door?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808170916280.26930@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20080817160029.QUIG2424.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

> I have a sliding door with what I think is a normal two pane 
> glass arrangement.
> 
> While weedwhacking, I apparently managed to flick a rock into 
> the door, shattering/spiderwebbing the outer pane in the door.

Went through the same thing myself a few months ago, tho with a single pane
sliding door.  There are people who will come to your house and deal with
the problem directly (generally by removing the door panel and taking it
back to their shop to measure, cut and install new glass); or you can save
some money by removing the panel yourself and taking it to their shop.

But I would suggest finding someone who specializes in glass doors; as two
different hardware stores decided the job was too big for them once they saw
my 48x78 door.

Charge was about $120 (housecall estimate was $300).  And yes, it's tempered
glass.

Randall

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Sun Aug 17 15:54:33 2008
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:54:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil in Vacuum resivor?
Message-ID: <abb8688a0808171454t5b22072fh753376d7daa31e31@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, so I've got this '95 Chevy S10 Blazer that was a hand me down from
my parents.   The truck seems to have vacuum problems, as the
ventilation system changes modes at high throttle and the automatic
transmission shifts late.  So I went looking for vacuum leaks today
and found several hoses rotted, including the one leading the vacuum
resivor ball.  In the process of replacing that hose I discovered the
ball was full of light oil.  Anyone know where this is coming from?
I'm pretty sure it isn't supposed to be there, and I am wondering if
this is a cause or a symptom of my issues with this truck.

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown =
=================================

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Aug 18 06:30:16 2008
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:30:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welders
Message-ID: <BAY101-W217E4BF63B209AA805087FCC6E0@phx.gbl>

Thanks everyone for
the great advice!  Based on what I have seen here, I will probably go
with the Hobart 140.  My choices are not unlimited, as I am planning on
using AmEx points to make the purchase. Thanks to a ton of business
travel, I have a lot of them and AmEx is currently offering me
30% off on things I buy with points (they must have decided that I have
too many), and Northern Industrial Tools is one of the suppliers I can
shop with.   I have two more weeks to decide, but will probably make my
choice in the next few days.  The  125 Amp Handler with the gas
conversion kit would run me around $310 in points, but the 140 includes
the gas kit and would only be $50 more.  I lose the ability to use any
15amp circuit, as recommended by Rex, but that isn't a problem in my
garage and I'm inclined to go with the more powerful one 'just in
case'.

Any thoughts on this before I pull the trigger?

(BTW:
I agree completely with Rex.  I love to weld and was really
disappointed when my welding class was over.  I will probably start
asking my friends and neighbors if they have any projects for me.)

Thanks again, Jim
_________________________________________________________________
Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you.  Find new ways to share.
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Photo
_Gallery_082008

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Aug 18 08:56:23 2008
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 09:56:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil in Vacuum reservoir?
In-Reply-To: <abb8688a0808171454t5b22072fh753376d7daa31e31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <abb8688a0808171454t5b22072fh753376d7daa31e31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79701B8B33B@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

John Innis
>
> Ok, so I've got this '95 Chevy S10 Blazer <...> I
> discovered the ball was full of light oil.  Anyone
> know where this is coming from?

Automatic transmission?

I once had a car that had a vacuum diaphragm in the auto transmission
fail - it started sucking transmission oil into the intake (didn't have
a vacuum reservoir on it).  That could be the source of your "light
oil"...

Tim Mullen
Chantilly, VA

From drew at DasRogges.com  Mon Aug 18 09:10:21 2008
From: drew at DasRogges.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 08:10:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kneepads
Message-ID: <48A990DD.3020106@DasRogges.com>

I've been installing some baseboard as part of a remodel and the kneepads
I'm using just aren't cutting it. Since there's also the installation of
a couple of wood floors in my future I figure it would be wise to invest
in some good kneepads. The problem with the current ones are that they don't
really do much cushioning, the tend to roll to the sides and they
have a tendency to cause my pants to creep down. Not a pretty sight. So,
does anyone have some kneepads that work real well?

Drew

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Aug 18 09:23:46 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:23:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kneepads
In-Reply-To: <48A990DD.3020106@DasRogges.com>
Message-ID: <02da01c90146$68a45b30$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

I've had good luck with Bucket Boss knee pads....got them at HD....all will
tend to make your pants legs ride up....solution?.....wear shorts....

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Drew Rogge
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:10 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Kneepads


I've been installing some baseboard as part of a remodel and the kneepads
I'm using just aren't cutting it. Since there's also the installation of a
couple of wood floors in my future I figure it would be wise to invest in
some good kneepads. The problem with the current ones are that they don't
really do much cushioning, the tend to roll to the sides and they have a
tendency to cause my pants to creep down. Not a pretty sight. So, does
anyone have some kneepads that work real well?

Drew
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

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From jibjib at att.net  Tue Aug 19 17:53:33 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:53:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG welders
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-W217E4BF63B209AA805087FCC6E0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY101-W217E4BF63B209AA805087FCC6E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <023101c90256$cab5e0d0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Jim,

You won't go wrong with a 110v Hobart Handler 140.  I've had mine for 7+
years and it's great little machine.  The only precaution I ever take is
when welding long beads in heavy material, I put a box fan blowing on the
welder to help keep it cool.  I've never had a shut down on duty cycle.
Good unit.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Stone
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:30 AM
To: shop talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] MIG welders

Thanks everyone for
the great advice!  Based on what I have seen here, I will probably go with
the Hobart 140.  My choices are not unlimited, as I am planning on using
AmEx points to make the purchase. Thanks to a ton of business travel, I have
a lot of them and AmEx is currently offering me 30% off on things I buy with
points (they must have decided that I have too many), and Northern
Industrial Tools is one of the suppliers I can
shop with.   I have two more weeks to decide, but will probably make my
choice in the next few days.  The  125 Amp Handler with the gas conversion
kit would run me around $310 in points, but the 140 includes the gas kit and
would only be $50 more.  I lose the ability to use any 15amp circuit, as
recommended by Rex, but that isn't a problem in my garage and I'm inclined
to go with the more powerful one 'just in case'.

Any thoughts on this before I pull the trigger?

(BTW:
I agree completely with Rex.  I love to weld and was really disappointed
when my welding class was over.  I will probably start asking my friends and
neighbors if they have any projects for me.)

Thanks again, Jim
_________________________________________________________________
Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you.  Find new ways to share.
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Phot
o
_Gallery_082008
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

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From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Aug 20 22:52:15 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:52:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

According to some RV folks, I might have polybutylene piping in my RV.

I need to add some valves.  What's the right way to split the line & 
insert a valve with this stuff?  Barbed fittings & hose clamps?  Something 
else?

And no, I don't have any desire to replumb the RV to PEX or whatever.

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 21 02:02:57 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:02:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>

> And no, I don't have any desire to replumb the RV to PEX or whatever.

Have you Googled polybutylene?  This article seems typical, from a
presumably reasonably unbiased source (University of AZ) :
http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/nov94/leaks.html

It says things like 
"Some plumbers were attracted to PB because customers cannot do their own
repairs. The crimping tool required to seal joints is difficult to find in
stores or rental shops. "
and
"crimpers need constant calibration to make sure [copper bands] are not too
tight." If bands are crimped too snugly, excessive pressure on PB results
and leaks are more likely to occur. 

And of course there are lots and lots of sites talking about the class
action lawsuit over the stuff; homes ruined and so forth.

Randall

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Aug 21 03:56:40 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 05:56:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c90374$3610a540$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> According to some RV folks, I might have polybutylene piping in my RV.
>
> I need to add some valves.  What's the right way to split the line &
> insert a valve with this stuff?  Barbed fittings & hose clamps?  Something
> else?


Cut and use a special compression fitting.  Many hardware stores have the 
proper fittings over in the PEX/PB section.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Thu Aug 21 09:18:21 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:18:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
In-Reply-To: <000b01c90374$3610a540$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<000b01c90374$3610a540$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808211117500.26810@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008, Nolan wrote:
>> According to some RV folks, I might have polybutylene piping in my RV.
>>
>> I need to add some valves.  What's the right way to split the line &
>> insert a valve with this stuff?  Barbed fittings & hose clamps?  Something
>> else?
>
>
> Cut and use a special compression fitting.  Many hardware stores have 
> the proper fittings over in the PEX/PB section.

Thanks!  Are PEX and PB fittings interchangeable then?

Mark

From opposumking at verizon.net  Thu Aug 21 11:35:29 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:35:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<000b01c90374$3610a540$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0808211117500.26810@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <000601c903b4$50fb1a80$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

> Thanks!  Are PEX and PB fittings interchangeable then?

They can be.  Depends on the maker of the fittings.

Many more things interchange unofficially, if you're handy and are willing 
to accept the risk.  Just as there's nothing wrong with a splice made from 
two hose clamps and a bicycle innertube, as long as you understand what 
you've done and it's limitations.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug 21 22:44:55 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:44:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
In-Reply-To: <20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <529382.21788.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Wouldn't most RVs have zero water pressure most of the
time, and fairly low pressure when they are actually
being used?

I would think that in a RV you could get away with
plumbing techniques (e.g. hose clamps) that would not
be wise in a house.

Doug 

--- Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> > And no, I don't have any desire to replumb the RV
> to PEX or whatever.
> 
> Have you Googled polybutylene?  This article seems
> typical, from a
> presumably reasonably unbiased source (University of
> AZ) :
> http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/nov94/leaks.html
> 
> It says things like 
> "Some plumbers were attracted to PB because
> customers cannot do their own
> repairs. The crimping tool required to seal joints
> is difficult to find in
> stores or rental shops. "
> and
> "crimpers need constant calibration to make sure
> [copper bands] are not too
> tight." If bands are crimped too snugly, excessive
> pressure on PB results
> and leaks are more likely to occur. 
> 
> And of course there are lots and lots of sites
> talking about the class
> action lawsuit over the stuff; homes ruined and so
> forth.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Aug 22 07:18:34 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 09:18:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
In-Reply-To: <529382.21788.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <529382.21788.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808220917090.2205@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008, Doug Braun wrote:
> Wouldn't most RVs have zero water pressure most of the
> time, and fairly low pressure when they are actually
> being used?
>
> I would think that in a RV you could get away with
> plumbing techniques (e.g. hose clamps) that would not
> be wise in a house.

I'm not particularly sure what pressure is hit when the pump is running, 
but I'd guess similar to house pressure... The water coming out of the 
faucet seems to be about the same.

And the system can be pressurized for extended periods... Like a week or 
two wouldn't be uncommon, either using the pump or (more normally in a 
campground) hooked up to the water hookup.

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Aug 22 07:53:47 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:53:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] polybutylene piping
In-Reply-To: <529382.21788.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080822135347.OOVA6020.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Wouldn't most RVs have zero water pressure most of the time, 
> and fairly low pressure when they are actually being used?

It depends.  Lots of people like to go for "full hookups" while camping,
meaning the RV's water system is linked to a land-based system.  And some of
the parks I've been in had way higher pressure than my home does.  Of
course, some RVs have pressure regulators at the inlet, but mine didn't.

The pump in my motorhome did shut off at 40-50 psi, which is somewhat lower
than my home, but it would hold pressure for a long time even if I did
remember to switch off power to the pump when we got home.  Not unusual to
find pressure still in the system the next time we got ready to go camping.

> I would think that in a RV you could get away with plumbing 
> techniques (e.g. hose clamps) that would not be wise in a house.

Sure.  Still, an RV is an expensive toy, and I know I'd feel really stupid
if I had a water pipe break because I used the wrong connectors.

Randall

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Aug 23 18:26:21 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 00:26:21 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
Message-ID: <082420080026.23630.48B0AAAD00099EEE00005C4E221348437304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

any help on the water heater troubleshooting?

the pilot light lights and seems to stay lit, but the main burner won't fire, as if the thermostat is bad.

this is our first gas heater after about ten years of electric, and I've forgotten the simple fixes.  I seem to remember the thermocouple was the first try, but I thought that was when the pilot wouldn't stay lit either.

I thought I'd check before I crack open the box and have at it.  any common items to try first?

thanks.

scott

From cak at dimebank.com  Sat Aug 23 18:46:30 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 17:46:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
Message-ID: <200808240046.m7O0kUda003586@moose.dimebank.com>

It's almost certainly the thermocouple.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Aug 23 18:46:41 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:46:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <082420080026.23630.48B0AAAD00099EEE00005C4E221348437304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <082420080026.23630.48B0AAAD00099EEE00005C4E221348437304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808231746y7bb3d53eq5c66f6254f6aeba3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 8:26 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> any help on the water heater troubleshooting?
>
> the pilot light lights and seems to stay lit, but the main burner won't fire, as if the thermostat is bad.
>
> this is our first gas heater after about ten years of electric, and I've forgotten the simple fixes.  I seem to remember the thermocouple was the first try, but I thought that was when the pilot wouldn't stay lit either.
>
> I thought I'd check before I crack open the box and have at it.  any common items to try first?
>

Right.  The thermocouple is a flame proving device.  It's heated by
the pilot, and produces some current when hot.  That allows the gas
valve to stay open. Lack of hot water is caused by the burner not
heating the water.  it can fail to do that because the thermostat is
set low, broken, or set to the pilot only setting.  It can also happen
because the burner doesn't work -- clogged, blocked orifice, etc.

There are other causes of no hot water.  I've seen the dip tube that
supplies cold water to the bottom of the heater fall off.  That means
the replacement water is supplied at the top of the tank, and
immediately drawn off.  The burner never fires, because the water at
the t'stat is hot.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From coles at colesnurseries.com  Sat Aug 23 19:01:41 2008
From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc))
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:01:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3 phase and phase converters
Message-ID: <002d01c90584$f8b986e0$0c01a8c0@Fest>

I recently purchased a small Bridgeport Milling machine.  It draws 3.3 amps at
480 v(three phase).  I also purchase a used static phase converter.  Has
anyone ran a milling machine this way or has experience hooking up one using a
phase converter.  You help is appreciated.
Dan

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Sat Aug 23 21:06:27 2008
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:06:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3 phase and phase converters
In-Reply-To: <002d01c90584$f8b986e0$0c01a8c0@Fest>
Message-ID: <011201c90596$669b8030$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

Dan I run a 3 phase mill on a Variable Frequency Drive.....and love
it....you get infinite speed control with full torque. You should however
provide a supplementary cooling fan for when you are running on a slow speed
since the fan built into the motor won't flow enough air. If you are not
happy with the static phase converter, investigate a VFD. Everybody I know
who uses them wouldn't do it any other way.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:02 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] 3 phase and phase converters


I recently purchased a small Bridgeport Milling machine.  It draws 3.3 amps
at 480 v(three phase).  I also purchase a used static phase converter.  Has
anyone ran a milling machine this way or has experience hooking up one using
a phase converter.  You help is appreciated. Dan
You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Aug 23 21:15:40 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 03:15:40 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
Message-ID: <082420080315.2234.48B0D25C000CEE6C000008BA220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

so you think I should or should not replace the thermocouple?  I'm looking at the main burner and it's not firing at all, for whatever reason, but the pilot is on and seems fine.  I believe the thermocouple should be in the pilot flame, right?  as in it's got to be hot to work, right?

can/should I shut off the gas and disassemble the main burner to see if it's clogged?  I don't know what else might be up with the heater, but the burner is definitely not coming on, and it's not getting gas because I spent a good chunk of today trying to light it manually with a match.  the gas is not getting turned on to the burner.  can I jump the thermocouple inputs to see if it turns on the gas to the main burner?

I ask (as opposed to just replacing it) because lowes and home depot here each have one thermocouple (the same kind) that is a different brand than my heater and the people at both stores were evasive about whether it'd work on mine.  before I start taking things apart or scouring the planet for one that fits my heater I thought I'd try to get smart for once and see if it's worth it.

if it's not the thermocouple or something in the 'thermostat' box that's easy to fix this thing gets a dirt nap, but I'm really hoping to get it working tomorrow--we're under tropical storm fay right now and cold showers are getting old already.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>

> Right.  The thermocouple is a flame proving device.  It's heated by
> the pilot, and produces some current when hot.  That allows the gas
> valve to stay open. Lack of hot water is caused by the burner not
> heating the water.  it can fail to do that because the thermostat is
> set low, broken, or set to the pilot only setting.  It can also happen
> because the burner doesn't work -- clogged, blocked orifice, etc.
> 
> There are other causes of no hot water.  I've seen the dip tube that
> supplies cold water to the bottom of the heater fall off.  That means
> the replacement water is supplied at the top of the tank, and
> immediately drawn off.  The burner never fires, because the water at
> the t'stat is hot.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Aug 23 22:34:47 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:34:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <200808240046.m7O0kUda003586@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <20080824043447.VBIL28556.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> It's almost certainly the thermocouple.

Guess it depends on how your valve is designed.  Although I have seen gas
burners where the thermocouple didn't also disable the pilot light; I was
under the impression that US law had not allowed that for oh, 50 years or
so.  On every water heater I've ever owned, if the thermocouple fails, the
pilot won't stay lit either.

If you have to push and hold a button to light the pilot, the pilot is
controlled by the thermocouple.  Which would mean the problem lies
elsewhere.

My water heater is right next to the dryer vent ... a long-standing leak in
the vent eventually blew enough lint into the heater burner to clog it up.

Randall

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Aug 24 00:16:49 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:16:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <082420080315.2234.48B0D25C000CEE6C000008BA220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <082420080315.2234.48B0D25C000CEE6C000008BA220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <018201c905b0$ff8837b0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Scott,

I strongly suspect it's the thermocouple.  If you want to check it out
before sending $10-15 on the part, jumper the thermocouple out with a pair
of alligator clips.  If she fires up, it's the thermocouple.  I would do
this before disassembling anything.  BTW - If Faye is raging, go buy the
part NOW.  The store may be closed soon.

BTW - As a responsible citizen, I must state that you should not leave the
safety jumpered out, as it can cause a dangerous situation, but you could
get at least one hot tank of water before disconnecting it, if you keep an
eye on it.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
scott.hall at comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 8:16 PM
To: David Scheidt
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting

so you think I should or should not replace the thermocouple?  I'm looking
at the main burner and it's not firing at all, for whatever reason, but the
pilot is on and seems fine.  I believe the thermocouple should be in the
pilot flame, right?  as in it's got to be hot to work, right?

can/should I shut off the gas and disassemble the main burner to see if it's
clogged?  I don't know what else might be up with the heater, but the burner
is definitely not coming on, and it's not getting gas because I spent a good
chunk of today trying to light it manually with a match.  the gas is not
getting turned on to the burner.  can I jump the thermocouple inputs to see
if it turns on the gas to the main burner?

I ask (as opposed to just replacing it) because lowes and home depot here
each have one thermocouple (the same kind) that is a different brand than my
heater and the people at both stores were evasive about whether it'd work on
mine.  before I start taking things apart or scouring the planet for one
that fits my heater I thought I'd try to get smart for once and see if it's
worth it.

if it's not the thermocouple or something in the 'thermostat' box that's
easy to fix this thing gets a dirt nap, but I'm really hoping to get it
working tomorrow--we're under tropical storm fay right now and cold showers
are getting old already.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>

> Right.  The thermocouple is a flame proving device.  It's heated by 
> the pilot, and produces some current when hot.  That allows the gas 
> valve to stay open. Lack of hot water is caused by the burner not 
> heating the water.  it can fail to do that because the thermostat is 
> set low, broken, or set to the pilot only setting.  It can also happen 
> because the burner doesn't work -- clogged, blocked orifice, etc.
> 
> There are other causes of no hot water.  I've seen the dip tube that 
> supplies cold water to the bottom of the heater fall off.  That means 
> the replacement water is supplied at the top of the tank, and 
> immediately drawn off.  The burner never fires, because the water at 
> the t'stat is hot.
You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

http://www.team.net/archive

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sun Aug 24 04:47:39 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:47:39 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
Message-ID: <082420081047.25689.48B13C4B000C4A1600006459220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

the pilot stays lit, and the heater can't be any older than the 1990s, when the house was built.  and you have to hold down the button to light the pilot.  it's in the garage, but nowhere near a dryer vent.  this thing is starting to get into "screw it, I'll just buy a new one" territory--the water system has been flaky since we bought the house.  guess I'll attack the thermostat box.


 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
>
> Guess it depends on how your valve is designed.  Although I have seen gas
> burners where the thermocouple didn't also disable the pilot light; I was
> under the impression that US law had not allowed that for oh, 50 years or
> so.  On every water heater I've ever owned, if the thermocouple fails, the
> pilot won't stay lit either.
> 
> If you have to push and hold a button to light the pilot, the pilot is
> controlled by the thermocouple.  Which would mean the problem lies
> elsewhere.
> 
> My water heater is right next to the dryer vent ... a long-standing leak in
> the vent eventually blew enough lint into the heater burner to clog it up.

From lspector at gmail.com  Sun Aug 24 05:58:19 2008
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:58:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <082420081047.25689.48B13C4B000C4A1600006459220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <082420081047.25689.48B13C4B000C4A1600006459220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <167503c10808240458u18749064mfe876700923ed4c1@mail.gmail.com>

Is it one of the super high efficiency models that uses a powered
exhaust vent? If so- make sure that the vent fan is working correctly.
If it's not, you'll get the same symptoms you've described. In my
case, the exhaust vent is plugged into a GFCI. When the GFCI tripped
for some reason, the fan quit and the burner wouldn't fire even though
the pilot was fine.



On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 6:47 AM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> the pilot stays lit, and the heater can't be any older than the 1990s, when the house was built.  and you have to hold down the button to light the pilot.  it's in the garage, but nowhere near a dryer vent.  this thing is starting to get into "screw it, I'll just buy a new one" territory--the water system has been flaky since we bought the house.  guess I'll attack the thermostat box.
>
>
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
>>
>> Guess it depends on how your valve is designed.  Although I have seen gas
>> burners where the thermocouple didn't also disable the pilot light; I was
>> under the impression that US law had not allowed that for oh, 50 years or
>> so.  On every water heater I've ever owned, if the thermocouple fails, the
>> pilot won't stay lit either.
>>
>> If you have to push and hold a button to light the pilot, the pilot is
>> controlled by the thermocouple.  Which would mean the problem lies
>> elsewhere.
>>
>> My water heater is right next to the dryer vent ... a long-standing leak in
>> the vent eventually blew enough lint into the heater burner to clog it up.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Aug 24 08:22:09 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:22:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <082420080315.2234.48B0D25C000CEE6C000008BA220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <082420080315.2234.48B0D25C000CEE6C000008BA220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <48B16E91.2080802@xxiii.com>

scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
> so you think I should or should not replace the thermocouple?  I'm looking 

I think your thermocouple is ok, since you say the pilot STAYS LIT. 
It's a safety to ensure the gas does not turn on without an ignition 
source.  If it's bad, the pilot will go out as soon as you release the 
button, regardless of how hot it is.  You can not test by jumpering, 
sine the thermocouple actually produces voltage -- it's not a passive 
switch.

The rest of the control unit is called a "gas valve".  They can be VERY 
expensive.  Like as much as a whole new heater.  What brand is your 
heater?  Look for a model number on it and google.  You should be able 
to find replacement valves and pricing on line that way.

If you replace the whole thing, you might consider going electric.  Is 
it nat' gas or propane?  Propane costs a fortune here, and electricity 
is actually cheaper;  I've switched my heater and the one at mom's over 
for a savings.

Oh yeah -- and this web site is really good 
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/

   -Wayne

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Aug 24 10:00:27 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
Message-ID: <200808241600.m7OG0Rr8029983@moose.dimebank.com>

> so you think I should or should not replace the thermocouple?  I'm looking at th
> e main burner and it's not firing at all, for whatever reason, but the pilot is 
> on and seems fine.  I believe the thermocouple should be in the pilot flame, rig
> ht?  as in it's got to be hot to work, right?

Yeah, others have pointed that out, too - I missed the point that
your pilot is working. Sorry....

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Aug 24 12:24:44 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 14:24:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] water heater troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <082420080315.2234.48B0D25C000CEE6C000008BA220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <082420080315.2234.48B0D25C000CEE6C000008BA220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808241124p2ae15807q10e2fa1849853cea@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 11:15 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> so you think I should or should not replace the thermocouple?  I'm looking at the main burner and it's not firing at all, for whatever reason, but the pilot is on and seems fine.  I believe the thermocouple should be in the pilot flame, right?  as in it's got to be hot to work, right?
>

Right.  It's the "flame proving" device.  Voltage from the
thermocouple proves to the gas control valve that the pilot is going,
which means that when it turns the gas on, it's not going to fill the
house up with gas and cause a nice, impressive "boom".  If you're
pilot stays lit, and you've got to hold a button to light the pilot
(or set the switch to a special mode), you're thermocouple should be
fine.  (I suppose there might be a failure mode where the pilot will
stay lit, but there's not enough current to pull the gas control valve
open, but I"ve never seen or heard of that.)

> can/should I shut off the gas and disassemble the main burner to see if it's clogged?  I don't know what else might be up with the heater, but the burner is definitely not coming on, and it's not getting gas because I spent a good chunk of today trying to light it manually with a match.  the gas is not getting turned on to the burner.  can I jump the thermocouple inputs to see if it turns on the gas to the main burner?

I'd clean the burner.  They're usually pretty simple things.  Check
the flue.  Beyond that, I don't know.  It's probably possible to
electrically trouble shoot the valve, but I don't know how, and i
don't have one to look at.

>
> I ask (as opposed to just replacing it) because lowes and home depot here each have one thermocouple (the same kind) that is a different brand than my heater and the people at both stores were evasive about whether it'd work on mine.  before I start taking things apart or scouring the planet for one that fits my heater I thought I'd try to get smart for once and see if it's worth it.

With the exception of a few whirlpool heaters that used a goofy
thermocouple, they're pretty universal.  And cheap.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bugi1960 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 25 09:47:54 2008
From: bugi1960 at gmail.com (Phil Nase)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:47:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB drill press
Message-ID: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>

I need an inexpensive drill press for occasional home use.  I don't  
need a lot of extras.  Mostly just light car restoration work.

Will one of the harbor freight models be OK.  Any particular model  
that anyone has used?

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 25 09:53:43 2008
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:53:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB drill press
In-Reply-To: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>
References: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W35B3656ACDE9271807465C9A670@phx.gbl>

When my Dad bought the larger table top model a few years ago, he gave me the
smaller one.  I found out quickly doing some woodworking that it leaked oil
from the shaft and sprayed it onto my work pieces.  Not the best way to get a
good looking finish.  I've gotten by w/out it since...

Not sure if it always did this, but it wasn't heavily used that's for sure.
You'd probably be OK for doing metal work, though the smaller one might be a
big underpowered.

-PJ> From: bugi1960 at gmail.com> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net> Date: Mon, 25 Aug
2008 11:47:54 -0400> Subject: [Shop-talk] HB drill press> > I need an
inexpensive drill press for occasional home use. I don't > need a lot of
extras. Mostly just light car restoration work.> > Will one of the harbor
freight models be OK. Any particular model > that anyone has used?> > Phil
Nase> Quakertown, PA> http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 25 10:04:17 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:04:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB drill press
In-Reply-To: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>
References: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808250904i60aa22b6odc5f8eabd0fec962@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Phil Nase <bugi1960 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I need an inexpensive drill press for occasional home use.  I don't
> need a lot of extras.  Mostly just light car restoration work.
>
> Will one of the harbor freight models be OK.  Any particular model
> that anyone has used?

I've got a small bench top press from HF.  It's often on sale for 40
bucks or so.  Works fine for what it is.  My requirements are pretty
low, though.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Aug 25 10:07:09 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:07:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF drill press
In-Reply-To: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>
References: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48B2D8AD.6000108@xxiii.com>

Phil Nase wrote:
> I need an inexpensive drill press for occasional home use.  I don't  
> need a lot of extras.  Mostly just light car restoration work.

I have a Craftsman one that was given to me.  It looks remarkably 
identical with this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44506
Its previous owner bought it for wood work, and complained that the 
whole spindle and chuck had too much flex for the accuracy he wanted. 
I've only used it a few times.  It does seem to have some slop in it, 
but wasn't detrimental for what I was doing.  I did see HF wanted $60 
for that one but had another of similar size and specs for $90;  hmm... 
what's the difference?

   -Wayne

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Aug 25 10:21:24 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:21:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] hf drill press
Message-ID: <36CE64ED35E349F19010E8843449A9E3@OwnerPC>

another option is www.craigslist.com   seems like hardly a day goes by without
someone posting a drill press for sale.... sometimes some old American made
stuff really cheap...  worth a look

john



http://usawakeup.org/
it's worth the time to read it

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Mon Aug 25 12:16:45 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:16:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB Drill press
Message-ID: <4382458b0808251116t28a9ed26wdf697073b24302cf@mail.gmail.com>

All those tabletop and even floorstanding DPs have a lot of slop. I
have a Craftsman benchtop DP and a Ridgid floor model.
I consider them barely adequate for woodwork. When drilling metal, no
matter how carefully you align the point, and anchor the workpiece,
the bit still tries to wander.  Everything flexes.

If I have something that requires the hole to be "exactly there" I use
a minimill or a mill-drill.

Having said that, I've messed with cars and machines all my life. Most
of that time I had not even a drill press.  Any Chinese drill press is
better than any handheld drill motor, and they cost about the same.
Just buy it.

Rex B
Ft Worth TX

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Aug 25 12:28:37 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:28:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB Drill press
In-Reply-To: <4382458b0808251116t28a9ed26wdf697073b24302cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4382458b0808251116t28a9ed26wdf697073b24302cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <136DD524749F4C168A07D17E6644E0D4@jdnet.deere.com>

> When drilling metal, no
> matter how carefully you align the point, and anchor the workpiece,
> the bit still tries to wander.  Everything flexes.

Especially the drill bit!

Even using a Bridgeport as a drill press, and a proper pilot drill with a
solid shank many times the hole diameter, you'll still get some wander.
Only way to make an accurate hole is to start with a center punch.

Randall

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Mon Aug 25 16:25:56 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:25:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB Drill press
In-Reply-To: <12F30759-0537-4F97-B359-74ACF3FD84EC@verizon.net>
References: <4382458b0808251116t28a9ed26wdf697073b24302cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<12F30759-0537-4F97-B359-74ACF3FD84EC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4382458b0808251525y7e33edc3jdac5c3a9a9081960@mail.gmail.com>

Phil, do yourself a favor and buy three more things at HF:

Cheap DP vise, size small
Vise-Grip like hold down.It will save you some lacerations when the
piece of sheetmetal you are drilling starts spinning in your fingers.
This is the most-used item for flat stuff.
 ITEM 98725 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?function=Search

Cheap vee-block for drilling round things. They have an extruded
aluminum version for $10, works great for round stuff
http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-warehouse/MIS-CENTERIT-p-505.html
 (This one is $15, but HF has them for $10)

And a cheap centerfinder will get you on-center when you drill that
round thing in the vee-block
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/10831

Have fun

Rex

From nases at verizon.net  Mon Aug 25 16:38:45 2008
From: nases at verizon.net (nases)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:38:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB Drill press
In-Reply-To: <4382458b0808251525y7e33edc3jdac5c3a9a9081960@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4382458b0808251116t28a9ed26wdf697073b24302cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<12F30759-0537-4F97-B359-74ACF3FD84EC@verizon.net>
	<4382458b0808251525y7e33edc3jdac5c3a9a9081960@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1B073BCF-E363-49E5-ACC1-7AF99A49BF8F@verizon.net>

I bought the 6 inch DP vise and it's too big for the DP table.  I hope  
to be able to clamp it on till I get the smaller one.

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa/


On Aug 25, 2008, at 6:25 PM, Rex Burkheimer wrote:

> Phil, do yourself a favor and buy three more things at HF:
>
> Cheap DP vise, size small
> Vise-Grip like hold down.It will save you some lacerations when the
> piece of sheetmetal you are drilling starts spinning in your fingers.
> This is the most-used item for flat stuff.
> ITEM 98725 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?function=Search
>
> Cheap vee-block for drilling round things. They have an extruded
> aluminum version for $10, works great for round stuff
> http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-warehouse/MIS-CENTERIT-p-505.html
> (This one is $15, but HF has them for $10)
>
> And a cheap centerfinder will get you on-center when you drill that
> round thing in the vee-block
> http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/10831
>
> Have fun
>
> Rex
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as nases at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Mon Aug 25 18:38:56 2008
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:38:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall
  >
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>

Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.

I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.

No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .

   last week it was a model A frame and axles.

2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?

eight foot box so that limits the length to 8 feet.


anyone have an opinion?


Skip

From mbarre at juno.com  Mon Aug 25 18:51:19 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:51:19 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
Message-ID: <20080825.205119.2938.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

I have a pair of good 2x12s I keep in the back of my one ton Dodge.  It has
come in handy for loading motorcycles, ATVs, lawn tractors, and numerous other
non-wheeled loads.  I had similar planks for loading my autox SPitfire on the
trailer and when I became alarmed at the bowing I observed, I glued & screwed
a 2X4 onto each as a stiffening web and it is much better.  For even heavier
weight, you could use 2 or even 3 2x4's  -  Of course the ramp would be
getting pretty heavy by then!
Matt

-- Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.

I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.

No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .

  last week it was a model A frame and axles.

2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?

eight foot box so that limits the length to 8 feet.


anyone have an opinion?


Skip
You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

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TAnucNrXlr1GqncrZ0Hrg/

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Aug 25 19:25:39 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:25:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk]  2 by's for truck ramp
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <019901c9071a$a67e77e0$6401a8c0@niolon>

I don't know that 2x12s are that much stronger than 2x10s... if you're 
planning on a significant load I'd bolt on some runners of 2x2x1/4" angle 
iron on each side of the ramps...since you're not going to be carrying them 
far, probably just dragging them out of the bed...weight wouldn't be a 
problem... and the angle iron would decrease the bow of plain 2by lumber...

john



Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Skip Albright" <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 7:38 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp


> Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.
>
> I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.
>
> No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .
>
>   last week it was a model A frame and axles.
>
> 2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?
>
> eight foot box so that limits the length to 8 feet.
>
>
> anyone have an opinion?
>
>
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1634 - Release Date: 8/25/2008 
> 8:48 PM

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Aug 25 20:33:22 2008
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:33:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB Drill press
In-Reply-To: <4382458b0808251116t28a9ed26wdf697073b24302cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4382458b0808251116t28a9ed26wdf697073b24302cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48B36B72.2050809@verizon.net>

Rex Burkheimer wrote:

> Having said that, I've messed with cars and machines all my life. Most
> of that time I had not even a drill press.  Any Chinese drill press is
> better than any handheld drill motor, and they cost about the same.
> Just buy it.


Lot of truth in that.  I have an old four speed Chinese benchtop drill 
press I got probably 20 years ago.  I added an intermediate step pulley 
to give me a bunch of lower speeds for large metal drill bits.  I have 
drilled up to 1" in carbon steel with it and still haven't broken it or 
worn it out.  But like someone else said, when I need precision I use 
the milling machine.

Dave C

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 26 07:44:14 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:44:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.
>
> I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.
>
> No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .
>
>   last week it was a model A frame and axles.
>
> 2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?

Wider boards are stronger, if you turned them sideways.  It's the
depth of the beam that determines its load capacity.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Aug 26 08:00:12 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:00:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>

I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ??? looked around 
on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but nothing 
on a common pine 2x10...

I'm sure grade enters into the formula and percent of water and greeness.. 
(hey !!  I'm politically correct...I'm talking greenness)   but I wonder how 
much stronger (resistance to breaking across the wide face when loaded) a 
2x10 is compared to a 2x12...  ???

anyone hazard a guess

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: "Skip Albright" <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp


> On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> 
> wrote:
>> Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.
>>
>> I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.
>>
>> No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .
>>
>>   last week it was a model A frame and axles.
>>
>> 2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?
>
> Wider boards are stronger, if you turned them sideways.  It's the
> depth of the beam that determines its load capacity.
>
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Aug 26 08:14:17 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:14:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <8C1762AF-8561-43F3-9838-B176775D3D7A@groupwbench.org>

20% more?

For actual numbers, you can exptrapolate from joist span tables and  
the live load they can support, except the data is only relevant to  
the "on edge" orientation.

jim

On Aug 26, 2008, at 10:00 AM, john niolon wrote:

> I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ???  
> looked around
> on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but  
> nothing
> on a common pine 2x10...
>
> I'm sure grade enters into the formula and percent of water and  
> greeness..
> (hey !!  I'm politically correct...I'm talking greenness)   but I  
> wonder how
> much stronger (resistance to breaking across the wide face when  
> loaded) a
> 2x10 is compared to a 2x12...  ???
>
> anyone hazard a guess
>
> john

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 26 08:18:31 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:18:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <8C1762AF-8561-43F3-9838-B176775D3D7A@groupwbench.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
	<8C1762AF-8561-43F3-9838-B176775D3D7A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808260718k31cea61dg119236bf883af08e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> 20% more?
>
> For actual numbers, you can exptrapolate from joist span tables and
> the live load they can support, except the data is only relevant to
> the "on edge" orientation.

A 2X10 will flex nearly as much as a 2X4, when loaded on wide side.
You need depth, not width (except, of course, it needs to be wide
enough to roll up).


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Aug 26 08:19:15 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:19:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <8C1762AF-8561-43F3-9838-B176775D3D7A@groupwbench.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com><2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com><C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
	<8C1762AF-8561-43F3-9838-B176775D3D7A@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <D99519E0E0EF4BEEA42BF39BDFE7C116@OwnerPC>

so Jim.... your calculations are based on the board being 20% wider ??? 
that makes sense but where do you find 'bearing weight'   (I don't know the 
proper term)  for how much weight either board would handle before disaster 
time...  I wonder if it truly is 20% more on the 2x12 ?

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp


> 20% more?
>
> For actual numbers, you can exptrapolate from joist span tables and
> the live load they can support, except the data is only relevant to
> the "on edge" orientation.
>
> jim
>
> On Aug 26, 2008, at 10:00 AM, john niolon wrote:
>
>> I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ???
>> looked around
>> on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but
>> nothing
>> on a common pine 2x10...
>>
>> I'm sure grade enters into the formula and percent of water and
>> greeness..
>> (hey !!  I'm politically correct...I'm talking greenness)   but I
>> wonder how
>> much stronger (resistance to breaking across the wide face when
>> loaded) a
>> 2x10 is compared to a 2x12...  ???
>>
>> anyone hazard a guess
>>
>> john
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
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>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Aug 26 08:22:53 2008
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:22:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <0K67000MGPBFT380@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

You will find information like span tables on lumber like this when 
standing on end, as it is used in construction.  I have not seen 
anything addressing strength in the other direction.  I have found 
that boards like this bend too much for practical use before they 
actually break.  You know, you can actually buy ramps for this 
purpose.  Here's an 
example: 
http://trucktoys4less.com/lund-bi-fold-tri-fold-loading-ramps.html. 
They will be light, strong and they'll come with a load rating.  They 
should also last a lot longer than lumber, especially if it sees any 
weather out there in the truck bed.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net


At 10:00 AM 8/26/2008, john niolon wrote:
>I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ??? looked around
>on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but nothing
>on a common pine 2x10...

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Tue Aug 26 08:23:50 2008
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:23:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk]  2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220808260714q431537fex8191240a85446723@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<bdde53220808260714q431537fex8191240a85446723@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220808260723t7a24b74bh7ca79801714b6b63@mail.gmail.com>

What about something like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=55424

For $40 you get a pair of ramps designed to do what you want them to
do.  Actually, I just got a 15% any item coupon, and I bet everybody
else on the mailing list did too.  A couple of 8' 2x12's will probably
set you back $25, then a few bucks worth of material to reinforce
them, and you're still on something rigged up.

Just my $.02.

-Paul


On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.
>
> I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.
>
> No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .
>
>   last week it was a model A frame and axles.
>
> 2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?
>
> eight foot box so that limits the length to 8 feet.
>
>
> anyone have an opinion?
>
>
> Skip

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Aug 26 08:27:09 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:27:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <0K67000MGPBFT380@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com><2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com><C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
	<0K67000MGPBFT380@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <3476767A40BB41C799B87530405B3F62@OwnerPC>

Oh, I agree Steve... store bought is better... but it's a rainy day here and 
work is slow... trying to keep my mind occupied..  Just continuing a thread 
thought line from a previous post...  I'm distracted easily

john :-)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Trovato" <strovato at optonline.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp


> You will find information like span tables on lumber like this when
> standing on end, as it is used in construction.  I have not seen
> anything addressing strength in the other direction.  I have found
> that boards like this bend too much for practical use before they
> actually break.  You know, you can actually buy ramps for this
> purpose.  Here's an
> example:
> http://trucktoys4less.com/lund-bi-fold-tri-fold-loading-ramps.html.
> They will be light, strong and they'll come with a load rating.  They
> should also last a lot longer than lumber, especially if it sees any
> weather out there in the truck bed.
>
> -Steve Trovato
> strovato at optonline.net
>
>
> At 10:00 AM 8/26/2008, john niolon wrote:
>>I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ??? looked 
>>around
>>on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but nothing
>>on a common pine 2x10...
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Tue Aug 26 08:33:23 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:33:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <D99519E0E0EF4BEEA42BF39BDFE7C116@OwnerPC>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com><2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com><C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
	<8C1762AF-8561-43F3-9838-B176775D3D7A@groupwbench.org>
	<D99519E0E0EF4BEEA42BF39BDFE7C116@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <DF43BB13-808B-48E1-9C00-9ADACCE274F6@groupwbench.org>

Google "joist span tables" and you should be set for the day :-)

As others noted, there isn't much strength in a flat board- the  
strength comes from compression at the top and tension at the bottom,  
of an on edge board. The taller the board, the more leverage the  
compression and tension have.

jim


On Aug 26, 2008, at 10:19 AM, john niolon wrote:

> so Jim.... your calculations are based on the board being 20%  
> wider ??? that makes sense but where do you find 'bearing  
> weight'   (I don't know the proper term)  for how much weight either  
> board would handle before disaster time...  I wonder if it truly is  
> 20% more on the 2x12 ?
>
> john

From burkheimer at gmail.com  Tue Aug 26 08:33:57 2008
From: burkheimer at gmail.com (Rex Burkheimer)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:33:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
Message-ID: <4382458b0808260733h24d0e8a9s87de954511f0a1e3@mail.gmail.com>

Last time I needed ramps was about 15 years and 3 trailers ago.
I used 6" C-purlins, lightweight sheet steel in a "C" cross-section
from a metal building supply.
Welded two side-to-side, cut a shallow bevel at one end.

[____][____]
Welded a piece of angle iron to the other end for a lip to hook on the trailer.
No heavier than wood, about the same cost at the time, and they last forever.
For a pickup bed I'd buy a pair of those aluminum bolt-on ramp ends
from Northern Tool.

-- 
Rex B
Ft Worth TX

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Aug 26 08:55:46 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:55:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40808260718k31cea61dg119236bf883af08e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
	<8C1762AF-8561-43F3-9838-B176775D3D7A@groupwbench.org>
	<2400a5d40808260718k31cea61dg119236bf883af08e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808261055140.5176@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

This may be a crazy question, but is there some reason you're not looking 
at actual ramps made of metal for this application?

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Aug 26 08:56:00 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:56:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <0K67000MGPBFT380@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <20080826145600.MJAT2424.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@randall>

FWIW, I sometimes use a pair of 10' scrap 2x12 as ramps for my trailer.
They do bend a lot, but I haven't managed to break them yet.  Using the full
span, I wouldn't go more than 400 pounds or so (myself plus a major
appliance); but over shortened spans (perhaps 3 feet) I've moved a full size
(upright) player piano.

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Aug 26 08:59:27 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:59:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220808260723t7a24b74bh7ca79801714b6b63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<bdde53220808260714q431537fex8191240a85446723@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220808260723t7a24b74bh7ca79801714b6b63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808261056410.5176@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> What about something like this:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=55424
>
> For $40 you get a pair of ramps designed to do what you want them to
> do.  Actually, I just got a 15% any item coupon, and I bet everybody
> else on the mailing list did too.  A couple of 8' 2x12's will probably
> set you back $25, then a few bucks worth of material to reinforce
> them, and you're still on something rigged up.
>
> Just my $.02.

I have a set of these.  They are _heavy_, but probably no more so than a 
2x10.

HF USA's website appears to be having issues, but I _think_ this is the 
15% off coupon:

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/emails/display.do?fname=34_RetailB.html

If not that, try RetailA & RetailC.

Mark

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Aug 26 09:17:48 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:17:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808261056410.5176@thunder.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net>
	<20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<bdde53220808260714q431537fex8191240a85446723@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220808260723t7a24b74bh7ca79801714b6b63@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0808261056410.5176@thunder.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808261117310.6254@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Site is back.  Link is:

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/emails/display.do?fname=34_RetailC.html

Mark

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008, Mark Andy wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2008, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
>> What about something like this:
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=55424
>>
>> For $40 you get a pair of ramps designed to do what you want them to
>> do.  Actually, I just got a 15% any item coupon, and I bet everybody
>> else on the mailing list did too.  A couple of 8' 2x12's will probably
>> set you back $25, then a few bucks worth of material to reinforce
>> them, and you're still on something rigged up.
>>
>> Just my $.02.
>
> I have a set of these.  They are _heavy_, but probably no more so than a
> 2x10.
>
> HF USA's website appears to be having issues, but I _think_ this is the
> 15% off coupon:
>
> http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/emails/display.do?fname=34_RetailB.html
>
> If not that, try RetailA & RetailC.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Aug 26 14:26:27 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB drill press
In-Reply-To: <A0069642-7362-463D-B63E-58C588F53F68@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <111577.67956.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am rather late replying to this, but here is my bit:

If you are buying ANY made-in-China drill press, try
real hard to examine the actual unit you will
purchase.  It is common for the movable plunger part
(I'm sure there is a proper technical name for it) to
be a bit loose in its bore, which means that the tip
of the drill bit will have some side-to-side play,
which makes fine, accurate work impossible.  Try to
find a unit where the plunger has the smallest
possible amount of free play, especially when it is
lowered in inch or two.

Also, buying a name brand (e.g. Sears Craftsman) is no
guarantee of better quality here.

Doug

--- Phil Nase <bugi1960 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I need an inexpensive drill press for occasional
> home use.  I don't  
> need a lot of extras.  Mostly just light car
> restoration work.
> 
> Will one of the harbor freight models be OK.  Any
> particular model  
> that anyone has used?

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Aug 26 14:44:51 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:44:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HB drill press
References: <111577.67956.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2425540BC18442ED8F6135743824301C@KARL>

The quill


> It is common for the movable plunger part
> (I'm sure there is a proper technical name for it)

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Tue Aug 26 15:17:05 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:17:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080826171637.01d74190@cox.net>

At 08:38 PM 8/25/2008, Skip Albright wrote:

 >Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.  I need to have a couple 
2 by's for a
 >ramp to my pickup.  No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .

Don't know if money is really an object here.  And yes, wood might be the
cheapest wayt to go.

We have 2 sets of ramps for my Dad's pickup.  On set is wood the 
other is metal.

You might want to look at something like:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=55424

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200304459_200304459

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200305063_200305063


John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Aug 26 16:21:55 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:21:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
References: <6.2.5.6.1.20080826171637.01d74190@cox.net>
Message-ID: <F8839D96EBE545A589D7C57ABD9F193F@ejrussell>

For many years I used a pair of 8' long 2 X 10's as ramps for my car
trailer. I added rabbeted 2 X 4's along the sides to make then into
wide H beams. They would carry the weight of MG's and a Toyota
4-Runner with no visible deflection. I also used them to load my
motorcycle (~ 700+ lbs) into the bed of my truck.

attempt at sketch:
                    __________________
                |   |______2 x 10_______|  |
                |      |                             |      |    2 x 4
                |___|                             |___|



When a nephew used them to put his full size Chevy 4 X 4 onto the
trailer, he managed to split one along its length. The planks were
many years old with visible cracks in them already thus should have
been replaced. I found out later that the oversize tires on his 4 X 4
were too wide to fit inside the trailer's fenders and he had tried to
drive the truck up over the fenders. He admitted it took a lot of
tries with his truck bouncing up & down as he tried to get it all the
way up onto the trailer so that likely way over-loaded those planks.

My current trailer loading ramps are 3 layers of 1/2" exterior plywood
(12" W X 8' long) glued & screwed together onto 2 X 4's I cut into
arched shapes. This bow shape seems to give them more strength and it
helps avoid scraping the undercarriage as the MG gets up onto the
trailer.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Tue Aug 26 18:14:26 2008
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:14:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
In-Reply-To: <C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <48B49C62.9010408@comcast.net>

20%  almost exactly.  Accurately, it'll be 11.625/9.625 or 21.1% (not counting 
variation in the lumber.) On the other hand, a 2x4 on edge under a 2x10 will 
_add_ (1.625/9.625)*(3.625^2)/(1.625^2)) or 1.5x the strength of the 2x10 alone. 
  So put a 2x4 under your 2x10 and make it 2.5x as strong.  Or two of 'em and go 
up to 4x the strength (1 + (1.5x * 2)).

Donald.

john niolon wrote:
> I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ??? looked around 
> on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but nothing 
> on a common pine 2x10...
> 
> I'm sure grade enters into the formula and percent of water and greeness.. 
> (hey !!  I'm politically correct...I'm talking greenness)   but I wonder how 
> much stronger (resistance to breaking across the wide face when loaded) a 
> 2x10 is compared to a 2x12...  ???
> 
> anyone hazard a guess
> 
> john
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> To: "Skip Albright" <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com>
> Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.
>>>
>>> I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.
>>>
>>> No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .
>>>
>>>   last week it was a model A frame and axles.
>>>
>>> 2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?
>> Wider boards are stronger, if you turned them sideways.  It's the
>> depth of the beam that determines its load capacity.
>>
>> -- 
>> David Scheidt
>> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>> _______________________________

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Aug 26 18:25:22 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:25:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0808210050580.6809@thunder.banklogic.net><20080821080257.MQRO13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall><6.2.3.4.2.20080825203437.02b4ecd0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<2400a5d40808260644m4f6fedf1s136982f4d8610fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1A2B878486840448EE1E2716B2AC1DC@OwnerPC>
	<48B49C62.9010408@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <005801c907db$6520cb10$6401a8c0@niolon>

THANKS DONALD...  I'll bet you wasted as much time today as I did !!!!!

john



Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Donald H Locker" <dhlocker at comcast.net>
To: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
Cc: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>; "shop-talk" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp


> 20%  almost exactly.  Accurately, it'll be 11.625/9.625 or 21.1% (not 
> counting variation in the lumber.) On the other hand, a 2x4 on edge under 
> a 2x10 will _add_ (1.625/9.625)*(3.625^2)/(1.625^2)) or 1.5x the strength 
> of the 2x10 alone. So put a 2x4 under your 2x10 and make it 2.5x as 
> strong.  Or two of 'em and go up to 4x the strength (1 + (1.5x * 2)).
>
> Donald.
>
> john niolon wrote:
>> I wonder where the specifications for tensile strength are ??? looked 
>> around on the internet ...found lots of specs on 'manufactured wood"  but 
>> nothing on a common pine 2x10...
>>
>> I'm sure grade enters into the formula and percent of water and 
>> greeness.. (hey !!  I'm politically correct...I'm talking greenness) 
>> but I wonder how much stronger (resistance to breaking across the wide 
>> face when loaded) a 2x10 is compared to a 2x12...  ???
>>
>> anyone hazard a guess
>>
>> john
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
>> To: "Skip Albright" <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com>
>> Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] 2 by's for truck ramp
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>> Seems like an easy choice, but maybe not.
>>>>
>>>> I need to have a couple 2 by's for a ramp to my pickup.
>>>>
>>>> No particular load, but could be pretty heavy .
>>>>
>>>>   last week it was a model A frame and axles.
>>>>
>>>> 2 x 10? 2 x 12?  are wider boards stronger?
>>> Wider boards are stronger, if you turned them sideways.  It's the
>>> depth of the beam that determines its load capacity.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> David Scheidt
>>> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>>> _______________________________
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 
> 270.6.9/1634 - Release Date: 8/25/2008 8:48 PM

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 26 20:24:54 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:24:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
Message-ID: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl>

While this is a bit off topic, I trust the information I get from this group
and I'll bet someone has done this.
My wife thinks Labor Day is a day for me to work on stuff she wants, so rather
than working in my garage or on a car Ill be redoing a kitchen.  Installing
the counter top require cutting the new Formica counter top and to length and
cutting a hole for the sink.  The sink drops in from the top and has a lip, so
the edge is not that important.

What should I use to make the two cuts?  I have a skill saw, jig saw, hand saw
and a router to choose from.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA '63 TR3B TCF587L
That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car! See it moves!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Aug 26 20:47:00 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:47:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rich White"

> What should I use to make the two cuts?  I have a skill saw, jig
> saw, hand saw and a router to choose from.

For cutting to length, cut from the bottom if using the skill saw
(turn the counter top upside down). That way the blade is cutting INTO
the laminate surface which will minimize chipping/damage of the
surface. Fasten (clamp or screw) a guide to make a straight cut.

Will the cut end be against a wall or cabinet? If so you may want to
make a cardboard or thin plywood template to get the fit right before
cutting (i.e. it is unlikely to be at exactly 90 degrees to the long
edge). If the end of the counter is visible don't forget to plan for
any desired overhang and glue on a finished end cap. Rout/file that
for a smooth finish.

For the sink cut-out I usually drill holes of the desired radius for
the corners (a hole saw work well) then connect the holes with either
a skill saw or jig saw. Be wary of chipping of the laminate (use a
sharp blade and don't cut too fast) but the sink lip should cover that
OK. I will slip a clean piece of cardboard under the base of the saw
to avoid scratching the counter top's surface. Do the cutting while
the counter is in position as cutting it out of place has two
problems: 1) the counter top will be weakened where the cut out is so
carrying it into the kitchen is a disaster waiting to happen. And B)
you need to make sure the cut out is in the right location anyway.

BTW, support the cut out so that it does not break off/fall through as
you are nearly done making the cut. Screw a cleat or two across the
top (placing the screws into the part that becomes the scrap...) for
support.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 26 21:03:27 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:03:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk]  HB drill press
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360808261956p71bad540u3e243976dda250e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <111577.67956.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2425540BC18442ED8F6135743824301C@KARL>
	<ea2385360808261956p71bad540u3e243976dda250e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360808262003r60319c54ya7f4dfe4ce7fa767@mail.gmail.com>

 *Someone tactfully pointed out to me how to get accurate work from a
Chinese (or any) drill press:*
**
*measure the center web of the bit you'll use for the final hole.*

*Center-punch the location and pilot drill with a center-web size bit *

*Drill the final hole*
**
*I guess everone but me was born knowing this . . *
**
*Tony*

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 27 11:24:19 2008
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:24:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
In-Reply-To: <F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl>
	<F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W4222F7F610B07167C04E75E1610@phx.gbl>

Thanks Eric!

You came up with a couple of items I had not thought of.

Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA


'63 TR3B TCF587L


That ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!


See it moves!

From smarc at smarc.net  Wed Aug 27 11:51:41 2008
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:51:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W4222F7F610B07167C04E75E1610@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl>
	<F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
	<BAY123-W4222F7F610B07167C04E75E1610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <48B5942D.40803@smarc.net>

I covered the bottom of my jigsaw with painters masking tape to prevent 
scratching the new counter top. Depending on the size or placement of 
the sink, you may have a little difficulty cutting the backside of the 
sink's opening as the backsplash may foul the saw.  I had to use a 
sawzall with a long blade to cut the back for that reason.  A tiny bit 
of chipping may result even if you're careful. Hopefully the sink's lip 
will cover it.

Oh, if you have to put a end cap on a trimmed edge, you might want to 
practice with the laminate trimmer first before attempting to trim the 
laminate on your new counter. Just saying...

Rich White wrote:
> Thanks Eric!
>
> You came up with a couple of items I had not thought of.
>
> Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Aug 27 12:33:18 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:33:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
In-Reply-To: <48B5942D.40803@smarc.net>
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl>
	<F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
	<BAY123-W4222F7F610B07167C04E75E1610@phx.gbl>
	<48B5942D.40803@smarc.net>
Message-ID: <48B59DEE.4040103@xxiii.com>

> Oh, if you have to put a end cap on a trimmed edge, you might want to 
> practice with the laminate trimmer first before attempting to trim the 
> laminate on your new counter. Just saying...

I've seen Lowes & Despot selling scraps or "drops" of countertop, and 
you can even buy as short as 4ft some places.  Might be worth picking up 
some just to practice on.

   -Wayne

From berry at kerch.com  Wed Aug 27 14:34:08 2008
From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:34:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
In-Reply-To: <F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl>
	<F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <48B5BA40.20402@kerch.com>

Eric J Russell wrote:
>  Be wary of chipping of the laminate (use a
> sharp blade and don't cut too fast) but the sink lip should cover that
> OK. 
I like to put down masking tape where the cut will go; it helps suppress 
the chipping, and if you decide the layout is wrong before curring you 
can just pull up the strips and there's no Sharpie left on the counter top.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Aug 27 15:59:54 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:59:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl><F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
	<48B5BA40.20402@kerch.com>
Message-ID: <8E7DA2D48A6B4744AA3BA890D3797CA6@KARL>

If you scribe (deeply - you actually want to score it) right on the cut 
line, then cut with your saw (or router or whatever) just on the inside 
(scrap side) of the score, any chips will stop at the score, and not mess up 
the good portion.

Many years ago when building countertops I found a Hyde (the putty-knife 
company) high-pressure laminate cutter.  It's a rock-simple tool, just a 
flat piece of steel cut with a slight hook.  The end is ground to a long vee 
.  What you do is drag the flat end of the vee along the cut line like a 
plow - picture dragging a tiny beer-can opener along the line.  It scores 
and cuts a vee-groove.  If you scribe the laminate a few times with the 
tool, you'll actually cut all the way through to the substrate.  The tool is 
made for cutting un-installed laminate when fabricating countertops, but 
I've used it to good effect in this application too, for cutouts, cut-offs, 
etc..

Karl


> Eric J Russell wrote:
>>  Be wary of chipping of the laminate (use a
>> sharp blade and don't cut too fast) but the sink lip should cover that
>> OK.

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Aug 27 19:13:18 2008
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:13:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] laminate cutter
In-Reply-To: <8E7DA2D48A6B4744AA3BA890D3797CA6@KARL>
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl><F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell>
	<48B5BA40.20402@kerch.com> <8E7DA2D48A6B4744AA3BA890D3797CA6@KARL>
Message-ID: <009c01c908ab$42031d60$c6095820$@mele@usermail.com>

<<picture dragging a tiny beer-can opener along the line>>

sounds like you could make one on the grinder pretty quick...

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Aug 27 19:54:03 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:54:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] laminate cutter
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl><F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell><48B5BA40.20402@kerch.com>
	<8E7DA2D48A6B4744AA3BA890D3797CA6@KARL>
	<009c01c908ab$42031d60$c6095820$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <FADBC73C324C41F78C29198A9A3F1A5A@KARL>

You certainly could.  It cost about a buck over 30 years ago, and has a nice 
dipped plastic handle, but if I lost it I'd make another one.




> <<picture dragging a tiny beer-can opener along the line>>
>
> sounds like you could make one on the grinder pretty quick...

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Aug 27 19:57:53 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:57:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] laminate cutter
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl><F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell><48B5BA40.20402@kerch.com>
	<8E7DA2D48A6B4744AA3BA890D3797CA6@KARL>
	<009c01c908ab$42031d60$c6095820$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <2DE86CB5984A49AB95444E6878A7159F@ejrussell>

> <<picture dragging a tiny beer-can opener along the line>>
>
> sounds like you could make one on the grinder pretty quick...

The one I have has a piece of carbide brazed onto a metal handle.
http://www.amanatool.com/handtools/20003.html


BTW, only us old-pharts know why you described the tool as like a 
"beer can opener"...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From mark at bradakis.com  Wed Aug 27 23:38:48 2008
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:38:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] laminate cutter
In-Reply-To: <2DE86CB5984A49AB95444E6878A7159F@ejrussell>
References: <BAY123-W50E66460A449112783273DE1610@phx.gbl><F0DE64EA696E43A2AB92A97A2C440821@ejrussell><48B5BA40.20402@kerch.com>
	<8E7DA2D48A6B4744AA3BA890D3797CA6@KARL>
	<009c01c908ab$42031d60$c6095820$@mele@usermail.com>
	<2DE86CB5984A49AB95444E6878A7159F@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <48B639E8.3050909@bradakis.com>

> BTW, only us old-pharts know why you described the tool as like a 
> "beer can opener"...
>   
You mean a church key?

mjb.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Aug 28 08:27:16 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:27:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] church keys
Message-ID: <48B6B5C4.1090704@xxiii.com>

 > BTW, only us old-pharts know why you described the tool as like a
 > "beer can opener"...
 >
You mean a church key?

Yeah!  I was just thinking that.  Actually have one in the desk drawer 
here at the computer for just such a purpose.  Simplistic die-stamped 
metal with a crappy chroming.  "International Breweries, Inc." with some 
brews named "Frankenmuth" "Old Dutch" and others.  Them internets 
suggest IBI went out of biz in 1966 or 67, so it's gotta be older then 
me, but I'd already figured that.  I think Dad used to open oil 
containers with it back when it came in cans.

Looks like you can still procure them on Ebay, if someone swiped yours.

   -Wayne

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 28 08:50:30 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:50:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] church keys
In-Reply-To: <48B6B5C4.1090704@xxiii.com>
References: <48B6B5C4.1090704@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360808280750q7f6395f0v518da8a3ea809d14@mail.gmail.com>

*Maybe they're still around . . my daughter sent me one a year ago that
plays "The Virginia Tech Fight Song" every time you pop one . .  surely the
batteries will go down eventually . . sigh.  Tony*

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

>  > BTW, only us old-pharts know why you described the tool as like a
>  > "beer can opener"...
>  >
> You mean a church key?
>
> Yeah!  I was just thinking that.  Actually have one in the desk drawer
> here at the computer for just such a purpose.  Simplistic die-stamped
> metal with a crappy chroming.  "International Breweries, Inc." with some
> brews named "Frankenmuth" "Old Dutch" and others.  Them internets
> suggest IBI went out of biz in 1966 or 67, so it's gotta be older then
> me, but I'd already figured that.  I think Dad used to open oil
> containers with it back when it came in cans.
>
> Looks like you can still procure them on Ebay, if someone swiped yours.
>
>   -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From lspector at gmail.com  Thu Aug 28 09:05:16 2008
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:05:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] church keys
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360808280750q7f6395f0v518da8a3ea809d14@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48B6B5C4.1090704@xxiii.com>
	<ea2385360808280750q7f6395f0v518da8a3ea809d14@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <167503c10808280805w6a3e83dcj796fe4b6341370bf@mail.gmail.com>

A good soak in a glass of saltwater ought to fix it!

-Larry

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Elton E. (Tony) Clark
<eltonclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> *Maybe they're still around . . my daughter sent me one a year ago that
> plays "The Virginia Tech Fight Song" every time you pop one . .  surely the
> batteries will go down eventually . . sigh.  Tony*

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Aug 28 11:18:10 2008
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:18:10 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] No shop this weekend, kitchen remodel instead
Message-ID: <082820081718.10755.48B6DDD20003DF2700002A0322155751149D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

> Many years ago when building countertops I found a Hyde (the putty-knife 
> company) high-pressure laminate cutter.  It's a rock-simple tool, just a 
> flat piece of steel cut with a slight hook.  The end is ground to a long vee 
> .  What you do is drag the flat end of the vee along the cut line like a 
> plow - picture dragging a tiny beer-can opener along the line.  It scores 
> and cuts a vee-groove.  If you scribe the laminate a few times with the 
> tool, you'll actually cut all the way through to the substrate.  The tool is 
> made for cutting un-installed laminate when fabricating countertops, but 
> I've used it to good effect in this application too, for cutouts, cut-offs, 
> etc..
> 
> Karl

I have one of these.  I bought it at Menard's.  I can't believe they are difficult to find.

--
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Aug 28 11:25:30 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:25:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] church keys
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360808280750q7f6395f0v518da8a3ea809d14@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48B6B5C4.1090704@xxiii.com>
	<ea2385360808280750q7f6395f0v518da8a3ea809d14@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23BF9491BC754277836080132FFA6A86@jdnet.deere.com>

> *Maybe they're still around . . 

"Church keys" are still sold in stores; as there are still a few things that
come in non-pop top cans (like tomato juice).

But the ones with advertising on them were "gimmes", given away as
advertisements; and I've not seen those new for a long time.  

There's a magnetic one stuck on the side of my rollaway, think it says
Miller or something like that, but it's pretty rusty.

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug 28 15:31:23 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:31:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] [Spits] Rusty Panel treatment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.16.20080826160254.1eb75b3a@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <629446.22670.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You really ought to get it sandblasted or
bead-blasted, since it is already separate from the
vehicle.

If you really can't do that, you could sand off most
of the rust, and use a phosphoric acid based product
to deal with the rest.  If you do this, you can
probably prime it with epoxy primer and not have to
mess with "rust encapsulator" type products.

Doug

--- Barry Schwartz <v6spitfireguy at cox.net> wrote:

> What kind of treatment would work best for coating
> the part after sanding
> down as much of the rust as I can?  Eastwoods rust
> encapsulator, I have
> some of that?  Remember, this isn't a frame or
> hidden part, but an exterior
> body panel - so it would be primed and painted -

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Aug 28 17:28:21 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:28:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] church keys
In-Reply-To: <48B6B5C4.1090704@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <591455.52361.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever seen a church-key beer opener
available in stainless steel?  I have a couple of the
ones with crappy chrome-plating, and they always start
rusting after a while...

Doug


--- Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:

> Yeah!  I was just thinking that.  Actually have one
> in the desk drawer 
> here at the computer for just such a purpose. 
> Simplistic die-stamped 
> metal with a crappy chroming.  "International
> Breweries, Inc." with some 
> brews named "Frankenmuth" "Old Dutch" and others. 
> Them internets 
> suggest IBI went out of biz in 1966 or 67, so it's
> gotta be older then 
> me, but I'd already figured that.  I think Dad used
> to open oil 
> containers with it back when it came in cans.
> 
> Looks like you can still procure them on Ebay, if
> someone swiped yours.

From racertod at racertodd.com  Thu Aug 28 18:24:05 2008
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:24:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] church keys
In-Reply-To: <591455.52361.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <48B6B5C4.1090704@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080828172314.00ba7df8@mail.blarg.net>

Doug wrote:

>Has anyone ever seen a church-key beer opener
>available in stainless steel?  I have a couple of the
>ones with crappy chrome-plating, and they always start
>rusting after a while...

Only a buck:
http://www.homebarsource.com/All-Stainless-Steel-Bottle-Can-Opener-p/7010.htm


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 268,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       176,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Thu Aug 28 20:01:52 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:01:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
Message-ID: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>

Hello,

 

I have all different sizes of empty boxes that I save from the various mail
order shipments I receive. I use these boxes periodically to ship items
myself rather than having to run down to the PO each time and buy a box.
These are one of the most awkward and space consuming things I store in my
shop. To date I pile them in the loft which is inconvenient and takes up
space I could use for other things. I generally ship about two items per
week (all different sized items, never the same repeat items).

 

I had an idea I wanted to run by the group and see if it is realistic or
maybe spur some other ideas for box storage. The peak of my shop roof is
about 17' sloping down to about 12' at the sides. The auto lift takes up one
bay of the shop but the third bay is open space in this roof area. I wonder
about using a cargo net, maybe like this one:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=458596

 

or larger if I can find one. And then rig up a pulley and rope system that
would collapse the cargo net around the pile of boxes and hoist it up into
the roof area. When I need a box I release the rope from the cleat and lower
the net/pile of boxes to floor level.

 

What do you think, workable deal, or just end up with a tangled mess??

 

Do you have any clever ideas for storing boxes of varying sizes?

 

Thanks

Wayne

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Thu Aug 28 20:23:39 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:23:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
In-Reply-To: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <C4DCABBB.5505%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Wayne, cardboard or other? I keep a roll of tape around, break the cardboard
down and store them flat. Then tape them up when I need them.
Brian



> From: Wayne <cornerexit at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:01:52 -0700
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
> 
> Hello,
> 
>  
> 
> I have all different sizes of empty boxes that I save from the various mail
> order shipments I receive. I use these boxes periodically to ship items
> myself rather than having to run down to the PO each time and buy a box.
> These are one of the most awkward and space consuming things I store in my
> shop. To date I pile them in the loft which is inconvenient and takes up
> space I could use for other things. I generally ship about two items per
> week (all different sized items, never the same repeat items).
> 
>  
> 
> I had an idea I wanted to run by the group and see if it is realistic or
> maybe spur some other ideas for box storage. The peak of my shop roof is
> about 17' sloping down to about 12' at the sides. The auto lift takes up one
> bay of the shop but the third bay is open space in this roof area. I wonder
> about using a cargo net, maybe like this one:
> 
> http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=458596
> 
>  
> 
> or larger if I can find one. And then rig up a pulley and rope system that
> would collapse the cargo net around the pile of boxes and hoist it up into
> the roof area. When I need a box I release the rope from the cleat and lower
> the net/pile of boxes to floor level.
> 
>  
> 
> What do you think, workable deal, or just end up with a tangled mess??
> 
>  
> 
> Do you have any clever ideas for storing boxes of varying sizes?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wayne
> ___

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Thu Aug 28 20:40:47 2008
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:40:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
In-Reply-To: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
References: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <E40A623268B546A98731631F435533EC@DesktopPC>

At times we have maybe 50-100 'used' corrugated cardboard
boxes in storage.  I simply fold them flat and stack them.
Is that a problem or am I missing something here?
Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes


> Hello,
>
>
>
> I have all different sizes of empty boxes that I save from the 
> various mail
> order shipments I receive. I use these boxes periodically to ship 
> items
> myself rather than having to run down to the PO each time and buy a 
> box.
> These are one of the most awkward and space consuming things I store 
> in my
> shop. To date I pile them in the loft which is inconvenient and 
> takes up
> space I could use for other things. I generally ship about two items 
> per
> week (all different sized items, never the same repeat items).
>
>
>
> I had an idea I wanted to run by the group and see if it is 
> realistic or
> maybe spur some other ideas for box storage. The peak of my shop 
> roof is
> about 17' sloping down to about 12' at the sides. The auto lift 
> takes up one
> bay of the shop but the third bay is open space in this roof area. I 
> wonder
> about using a cargo net, maybe like this one:
>
> http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=458596
>
>
>
> or larger if I can find one. And then rig up a pulley and rope 
> system that
> would collapse the cargo net around the pile of boxes and hoist it 
> up into
> the roof area. When I need a box I release the rope from the cleat 
> and lower
> the net/pile of boxes to floor level.
>
>
>
> What do you think, workable deal, or just end up with a tangled 
> mess??
>
>
>
> Do you have any clever ideas for storing boxes of varying sizes?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as gsteve at hammatt.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Aug 28 20:43:25 2008
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:43:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
References: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <A6FBEF5F8C73416498D44D310DFDA202@ejrussell>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne"

> Do you have any clever ideas for storing boxes of varying sizes?

I don't claim it is 'clever' but I just break down useful boxes and 
store them flat.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Thu Aug 28 20:53:04 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:53:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>

For all my life Ive used low quality (craftsman) ratchets for my wrenching.
At one time I had one high quality SK but I lost it in a move one year. The
craftsman ratchets I have are junk. They take 600 degrees of movement to
ratchet one click, and they are not durable at all. Im tired of having to
take them to sears only to have sears give me another one with a rebuild
kit in it that is just the same junk.



I am going to replace my <, 3/8, and = drive craftsman ratchets with
something of higher quality and precision. I want a ratchet that doesnt
require half a football field of movement just to ratchet ahead one click.
I want to buy fixed head version and flex head versions, but I dont want
the typical flex head design that pivots outside the perimeter of the head.
You probably know the type, many of them end up as floppies which wont
hold a position and have no means of tightening the pivot.



The flex head design Im thinking of pivots about the centerline of the head
and has a set screw that allows one to adjust the tension on the pivot as it
wears. With the handle pivoting about the centerline of the head you can put
the handle straight up and use the ratchet to spin the fasteners on/off
until such time the leverage of the ratchet handle is needed.



Who makes some quality ratchets I should be looking at? Anybody have a flex
ratchet as Ive described? Who is the manufacturer?



Thanks

Wayne

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Thu Aug 28 20:54:45 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:54:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
In-Reply-To: <C4DCABBB.5505%kennedybc@comcast.net>
References: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
	<C4DCABBB.5505%kennedybc@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <82662C3D50EB45729E36B468E903F554@wayneshop>

Sorry about that, I should have specified. Yes they are just plain old
cardboard boxes of various sizes.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+cornerexit=gmail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+cornerexit=gmail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Brian C Kennedy
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:24 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes

 

Wayne, cardboard or other? I keep a roll of tape around, break the cardboard

down and store them flat. Then tape them up when I need them.

Brian

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Thu Aug 28 21:01:13 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:01:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
Message-ID: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>

I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs such as
ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc. Right now I keep all
of mine in several rubber totes all thrown together inside, and as you can
probably guess getting a couple of tie-downs out of the tangled mess can be
frustrating. There must be a better way.

 

Thanks

Wayne

From cornerexit at gmail.com  Thu Aug 28 21:08:02 2008
From: cornerexit at gmail.com (Wayne)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:08:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
In-Reply-To: <E40A623268B546A98731631F435533EC@DesktopPC>
References: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
	<E40A623268B546A98731631F435533EC@DesktopPC>
Message-ID: <0CAF56980AE44D9AAA769364E43DCEDE@wayneshop>

Not a problem other than I was trying to climate the waste of breaking down
the box and then having to reassemble them as well as I've found that
obtaining the box that is the best fit for the item is a bit easier when
they are assembled. Particularly as I said, all items I ship are different
shapes, sizes, weights etc, and sometimes I need to ship two or more odd
shaped items per box if possible. It's just easier and much quicker to
eyeball an assembled box and see if it will work for my item of the day
rather than look through a stack of flat boxes and try to do the math or end
up pulling out  several only to find that they won't work for the item.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+cornerexit=gmail.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+cornerexit=gmail.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:41 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes

 

At times we have maybe 50-100 'used' corrugated cardboard

boxes in storage.  I simply fold them flat and stack them.

Is that a problem or am I missing something here?

Steve Hammatt

Mount Vernon WA USA

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Wayne" <cornerexit at gmail.com>

To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>

Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:01 PM

Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes

 

 

> Hello,

> 

> 

> 

> I have all different sizes of empty boxes that I save from the 

> various mail

> order shipments I receive. I use these boxes periodically to ship 

> items

> myself rather than having to run down to the PO each time and buy a 

> box.

> These are one of the most awkward and space consuming things I store 

> in my

> shop. To date I pile them in the loft which is inconvenient and 

> takes up

> space I could use for other things. I generally ship about two items 

> per

> week (all different sized items, never the same repeat items).

> 

> 

> 

> I had an idea I wanted to run by the group and see if it is 

> realistic or

> maybe spur some other ideas for box storage. The peak of my shop 

> roof is

> about 17' sloping down to about 12' at the sides. The auto lift 

> takes up one

> bay of the shop but the third bay is open space in this roof area. I 

> wonder

> about using a cargo net, maybe like this one:

> 

> http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=458596

> 

> 

> 

> or larger if I can find one. And then rig up a pulley and rope 

> system that

> would collapse the cargo net around the pile of boxes and hoist it 

> up into

> the roof area. When I need a box I release the rope from the cleat 

> and lower

> the net/pile of boxes to floor level.

> 

> 

> 

> What do you think, workable deal, or just end up with a tangled 

> mess??

> 

> 

> 

> Do you have any clever ideas for storing boxes of varying sizes?

> 

> 

> 

> Thanks

> 

> Wayne

> _______________________________________________

> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

> 

> You are subscribed as gsteve at hammatt.com

> 

> Shop-talk mailing list

> 

> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

> 

> http://www.team.net/archive 
You are subscribed as cornerexit at gmail.com

 

Shop-talk mailing list

 

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

 

http://www.team.net/archive

From kennedybc at comcast.net  Thu Aug 28 20:23:39 2008
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:23:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
In-Reply-To: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <C4DCABBB.5505%kennedybc@comcast.net>

Wayne, cardboard or other? I keep a roll of tape around, break the cardboard
down and store them flat. Then tape them up when I need them.
Brian



> From: Wayne <cornerexit at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:01:52 -0700
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
> 
> Hello,
> 
>  
> 
> I have all different sizes of empty boxes that I save from the various mail
> order shipments I receive. I use these boxes periodically to ship items
> myself rather than having to run down to the PO each time and buy a box.
> These are one of the most awkward and space consuming things I store in my
> shop. To date I pile them in the loft which is inconvenient and takes up
> space I could use for other things. I generally ship about two items per
> week (all different sized items, never the same repeat items).
> 
>  
> 
> I had an idea I wanted to run by the group and see if it is realistic or
> maybe spur some other ideas for box storage. The peak of my shop roof is
> about 17' sloping down to about 12' at the sides. The auto lift takes up one
> bay of the shop but the third bay is open space in this roof area. I wonder
> about using a cargo net, maybe like this one:
> 
> http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=458596
> 
>  
> 
> or larger if I can find one. And then rig up a pulley and rope system that
> would collapse the cargo net around the pile of boxes and hoist it up into
> the roof area. When I need a box I release the rope from the cleat and lower
> the net/pile of boxes to floor level.
> 
>  
> 
> What do you think, workable deal, or just end up with a tangled mess??
> 
>  
> 
> Do you have any clever ideas for storing boxes of varying sizes?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wayne
> ___

From brabel at dlux.net  Thu Aug 28 21:45:27 2008
From: brabel at dlux.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:45:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
In-Reply-To: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
References: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <35E9A1D1-63DA-4F0D-933A-DF4FE13E7B75@dlux.net>

> Do you have any clever ideas for storing boxes of varying sizes?


I was at an auto-parts warehouse year ago and stole one of their ideas.

I built a rectangular frame and stretched netting across it. This is  
suspended by ropes from my garage ceiling. The ropes diverge as they  
run up from the corners of the frame -- this way the frame does not  
swing.

I throw all empty boxes up there. Any box can be easily retrieved by  
using a broomstick to prod the box over the edge.



- Bill Rabel
   Wet Spot Garage
   Anacortes, WA
   '04 Jaguar XJ8
   '90 Lotus Esprit
   '68 Morris Minor Traveler

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Thu Aug 28 21:50:04 2008
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:50:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing boxes
In-Reply-To: <7655ABCD9CEB430DA5F336B7BA64717B@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <70CD5B0223DA44E6AF4F3F57B88CC2B2@8sv5f01>

Sounds good to me. The space is otherwise unusable and you're saving
yourself the trouble of knocking down and reassembling the boxes.

Bob K

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Thu Aug 28 21:56:41 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:56:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <002c01c9098b$3f95b610$be347d80@B50SS>

Dear Wayne,

SK has this ratchet and I have been using mine for 40 years. It is the 
single most used tool in my garage -- it is their roto-ratchet:

http://www.mytoolstore.com/sk/sk03051.html

scroll down a few pages to see:

SK 3/8 inch Drive Professional Roto Ratchet
best damn tool on the face of the planet.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets


> For all my life Ive used low quality (craftsman) ratchets for my 
> wrenching.
> At one time I had one high quality SK but I lost it in a move one year. 
> The
> craftsman ratchets I have are junk. They take 600 degrees of movement to
> ratchet one click, and they are not durable at all. Im tired of having to
> take them to sears only to have sears give me another one with a rebuild
> kit in it that is just the same junk.
>
>
>
> I am going to replace my <, 3/8, and = drive craftsman ratchets with
> something of higher quality and precision. I want a ratchet that doesnt
> require half a football field of movement just to ratchet ahead one click.
> I want to buy fixed head version and flex head versions, but I dont want
> the typical flex head design that pivots outside the perimeter of the 
> head.
> You probably know the type, many of them end up as floppies which wont
> hold a position and have no means of tightening the pivot.
>
>
>
> The flex head design Im thinking of pivots about the centerline of the 
> head
> and has a set screw that allows one to adjust the tension on the pivot as 
> it
> wears. With the handle pivoting about the centerline of the head you can 
> put
> the handle straight up and use the ratchet to spin the fasteners on/off
> until such time the leverage of the ratchet handle is needed.
>
>
>
> Who makes some quality ratchets I should be looking at? Anybody have a 
> flex
> ratchet as Ive described? Who is the manufacturer?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Thu Aug 28 22:23:01 2008
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 00:23:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <002c01c9098b$3f95b610$be347d80@B50SS>
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
	<002c01c9098b$3f95b610$be347d80@B50SS>
Message-ID: <48B779A5.1040009@xxiii.com>

old dirtbeard wrote:
> SK has this ratchet and I have been using mine for 40 years. It is the 
> single most used tool in my garage -- it is their roto-ratchet:

So is SK stuff actually good???  I thought they were a brand that used 
to be decent, but had gone to crap over the last couple decades.

   -(the other) Wayne

From nick at landform.co.uk  Fri Aug 29 00:59:20 2008
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:59:20 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <48B79E48.5060801@landform.co.uk>

Wayne wrote:
>  With the handle pivoting about the centerline of the head you can put
> the handle straight up and use the ratchet to spin the fasteners on/off
> until such time the leverage of the ratchet handle is needed.
>
>   
MAC has a ratchet that does what you want - XRS 11 FPA. Although it 
isn't exactly the pattern you describe it does the job with a continuous 
neat spinning action of the handle. I've  had one for 10+ years and not 
broken it yet. Not cheap but worth a look. 12 degree rotation might be a 
problem for you.

http://www.mactools.com/Mac/Mac+Products/Catalog/Hand+Tools/Ratchet-Socket/3-8%22+Individual/Chrome+Ratchet-Handles/XRS11FPA

but no image.

Nick Brearley

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Aug 29 02:45:14 2008
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:45:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
Message-ID: <OFCDACF1D1.40239749-ON852574B4.0030166A-852574B4.0030166F@mail.megageek.com>

I did an article for "Farm Show" magazine a while back on this topic...

Here are two links on my site with abreviated directions and pictures....
<http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/e3ec633d63693afb85256ba700060663/63a3ddbbe48349a4852570fc000a8d0b?OpenDocument>


I just posted this one from Iraq, so please bear with me...

<http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/e3ec633d63693afb85256ba700060663/3093723db6b8e3c4852574b4002e63fb?OpenDocument>


enjoy


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos



-----shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net wrote: -----


To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
From: "Wayne" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net
Date: 08/28/2008 23:01
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs

I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs such as
ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc. Right now I keep
all
of mine in several rubber totes all thrown together inside, and as you can
probably guess getting a couple of tie-downs out of the tangled mess can be
frustrating. There must be a better way.



Thanks

Wayne
You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com

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From opposumking at verizon.net  Fri Aug 29 03:24:08 2008
From: opposumking at verizon.net (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:24:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
References: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <001101c909b8$fdf31ad0$230bfea9@mde.state.md.us>

Ratchet straps get stored by bundling.  I run the strap through the ratchet 
about half way, then wrap the strap around the ratchet, encasing the short 
stub strap that is attached to the ratchet.  Once it's all wrapped, I pop a 
rubber band around it all.  I carry about 8 this way in the truck at any one 
time.  Very easy to grab and use.

Bungies I carry hooked to the seat springs on the back of the bench seat, if 
possible.  One of these days I might get around to making a little mounting 
card for them out of some pegboard material or such.  Again, very easy to 
grab and use.

The bed cover net gets wadded into its storage pouch.  Some day I'll 
actually get around to marking the corners of the net so I can position it 
correctly from the get go when I actually use it.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs


>I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs such as
> ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc. Right now I keep 
> all
> of mine in several rubber totes all thrown together inside, and as you can
> probably guess getting a couple of tie-downs out of the tangled mess can 
> be
> frustrating. There must be a better way.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as opposumking at verizon.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From lspector at gmail.com  Fri Aug 29 05:49:19 2008
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:49:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <167503c10808290449v5fd887a2w559913aa5e6a9921@mail.gmail.com>

I replaced all of my Craftsman ratchets about 10 years ago. I went
with FACOM palm-control ratchets and have been extremely pleased with
them. They are 72 tooth, so they actually work in very tight spaces.
Unfortunately, they seem to be getting harder to find- but they're out
there. Ultimate garage has them:
http://www.ultimategarage.com/Facom/facj.html

If you look for them, make sure you get the top-end palm control
version (J161, R161, S161).

-Larry

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:53 PM, Wayne <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:
> For all my life I ve used low quality (craftsman) ratchets for my wrenching.
> At one time I had one high quality SK but I lost it in a move one year. The
> craftsman ratchets I have are junk. They take 600 degrees of movement to
> ratchet one click, and they are not durable at all. I m tired of having to
> take them to sears only to have sears give me another one with a  rebuild
> kit in it that is just the same junk.
>
>
>
> I am going to replace my <, 3/8, and = drive craftsman ratchets with
> something of higher quality and precision. I want a ratchet that doesn t
> require half a football field of movement just to ratchet ahead one click.
> I want to buy fixed head version and flex head versions, but I don t want
> the typical flex head design that pivots outside the perimeter of the head.
> You probably know the type, many of them end up as  floppies  which won t
> hold a position and have no means of tightening the pivot.
>
>
>
> The flex head design I m thinking of pivots about the centerline of the head
> and has a set screw that allows one to adjust the tension on the pivot as it
> wears. With the handle pivoting about the centerline of the head you can put
> the handle straight up and use the ratchet to spin the fasteners on/off
> until such time the leverage of the ratchet handle is needed.
>
>
>
> Who makes some quality ratchets I should be looking at? Anybody have a flex
> ratchet as I ve described? Who is the manufacturer?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Aug 29 06:04:55 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:04:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <960B9B13-7954-4E90-99C9-03CF2528E896@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 28, 2008, at 10:53 PM, Wayne wrote:
>
> Who makes some quality ratchets I should be looking at? Anybody have
> a flex
> ratchet as Ive described? Who is the manufacturer?


http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/tools/hand+tools/ratchets+%26+wrenches/1-
4%22+drive+pivoting+ratchet.do

It sure looks like that's a tensioner screw on the handle. There's
another manufacturer I was trying to think of besides Griot's, but it
eludes me.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Aug 29 06:01:01 2008
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:01:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
In-Reply-To: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>
References: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20080829075750.02053710@cox.net>

At 11:01 PM 8/28/2008, Wayne wrote:

 >I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs such as
 >ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc. Right now I keep all
 >of mine in several rubber totes all thrown together inside, and as you can
 >probably guess getting a couple of tie-downs out of the tangled mess can be
 >frustrating. There must be a better way.

I friend of mine keeps each of his rolled up into a rool with the 
ratchet in the
center.  Then he uses tie wraps to keep them intact.  When put something on
his trailer and ties it down, he recoils the free end tie down and uses  some
tie wraps to hold that roll together.  So the free ends aren't flying 
or dragging
all over the place.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                        65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Aug 29 06:20:43 2008
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:20:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
In-Reply-To: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>
References: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <BEEA8862-0B8E-48FE-84D8-36C53EFF3CAC@groupwbench.org>

On Aug 28, 2008, at 11:01 PM, Wayne wrote:

> I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs  
> such as
> ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc.

ROws of bicycle hooks strategically spaced on the wall. It requires a  
lot of dedicated wall space though.

jim

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Aug 29 06:47:45 2008
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:47:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
References: <OFCDACF1D1.40239749-ON852574B4.0030166A-852574B4.0030166F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c909d5$6fc36450$6401a8c0@niolon>

this is what I do with the ratchet straps/... as for bungee cords I only 
hope if I fall off a high place there is a bungee cord laying there.. I'll 
grab it and it for darn sure will tangle up on something and save my life..

john



Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs


>I did an article for "Farm Show" magazine a while back on this topic...
>
> Here are two links on my site with abreviated directions and pictures....
> <http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/e3ec633d63693afb85256ba700060663/63a3ddbbe48349a4852570fc000a8d0b?OpenDocument>
>
>
> I just posted this one from Iraq, so please bear with me...
>
> <http://www.megageek.com/photo/photoa~1.nsf/e3ec633d63693afb85256ba700060663/3093723db6b8e3c4852574b4002e63fb?OpenDocument>
>
>
> enjoy
>
>
> Moose
>
> "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>     Tori Amos
>
>
>
> -----shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net wrote: -----
>
>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> From: "Wayne" <cornerexit at gmail.com>
> Sent by: shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net
> Date: 08/28/2008 23:01
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
>
> I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs such 
> as
> ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc. Right now I keep
> all
> of mine in several rubber totes all thrown together inside, and as you can
> probably guess getting a couple of tie-downs out of the tangled mess can 
> be
> frustrating. There must be a better way.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
> You are subscribed as eric at megageek.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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> 6:58 PM

From lane495 at nctc.com  Fri Aug 29 07:02:07 2008
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:02:07 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
References: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <7DD95553E7EB411BA9FBFF94A0C07023@osiris>

In my garage, appropriately named the "Girl's Garage", all of my 
straps/tie-downs/ratchets are hung on pegboard hooks.  The aircraft ratchet 
straps are wrapped/wound and then hung on 12" long pegboard rods. I can get 
3 straps on one rod, with a total of 4 rods in a row.  The bungees are 
stored on 8" long rods, by length.  It keeps them organized so when we do 
hay or haul the bobcat I know exactly where they are.  This also saves floor 
space. Hope this helps.

A picture of the cargo straps: 
http://www.herhayhauler.com/cargo-storage.JPG
A picture of the bungees:  http://www.herhayhauler.com/bungee-storage.JPG

If you use my idea you must tell everyone who asks that you are comfortable 
with your masculinity, because a girl gave you the idea. {grin}
Patricia

----- Original Message ----- 
>I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs such as
> ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc.
> Thanks
>
> Wayne

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Aug 29 07:10:51 2008
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:10:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop><002c01c9098b$3f95b610$be347d80@B50SS>
	<48B779A5.1040009@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <F2A9F9444A24472FB7E0F817A00F60A5@KARL>

SK stuff is still good.  It's actually made by SK, (I think it's still made 
here in Chicago - at least their factory is still there) not some unknown 
private-label factory like the place Craftsman stuff is now made.  They 
stand behind their warrantee, their chrome is good, and AFAIK they haven't 
dropped their roll-stamped size markings like Sears has.  I hate those 
laser-engraved sockets, and hope I don't have to trade too many broken 
sockets in for those new ones.

Craftsman stuff took a huge nosedive about 10 years ago.  It's not that it's 
that much weaker or softer, and the degree of finish may in fact be a bit 
better, but the chrome is thinner, their consistency is poor now, and the 
socket and box wrench designs are too thick.

And why can you only buy sets of combination wrenches nowadays ?  They seem 
to still have some stock of regular open-end wrenches and regular box 
wrenches, but not always.  I just never got that enthused about combination 
wrenches, though I'm not exactly sure why.

There was a thread here years ago and someone worked at the company that 
made Craftsman, Snap-On, and a few other brands.  They don't make Craftsman 
any more.

Karl


> So is SK stuff actually good???  I thought they were a brand that used
> to be decent, but had gone to crap over the last couple decades.
>
>   -(the other) Wayne

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Aug 29 07:15:30 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 06:15:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <200808291315.m7TDFUj1014064@moose.dimebank.com>

Pretty much everything that Griot's sells (tool-wise) is just
rebranded. Those ratchet handles have a familiar shape ... Snap-On?
Blue Point? Maybe S-K?

I've been using a USAG pivot head ratchet for a decade, but
it doesn't pivot around the ratchet. I hadn't seen that
design before this conversation and really like it... I may
have to buy one. 

I *love* my Snap-On 3/8" palm ratchet. And I have a tiny 3/8
drive ratchet - about the size of the typical 1/4" drive -
that I got from Imparts long ago, also great. No idea right
now who made it, though.

From robolane at sbcglobal.net  Fri Aug 29 07:52:19 2008
From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (ROBERT LANE)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 06:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] TIE DOWN STORAGE
Message-ID: <478448.45028.qm@web82002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I use the smaller thinner tie downs that are about 15' long.  I take the hook & strap part and double the strap and wrap around the length of the hook.  I leave enough strap to tie a couple of 1/2 hitches cross ways around the wrap.  I put this in a old bank money bag.  Then I tie the ratchet part around the bag, that way I know is inside.   I do this since I use more of these bags  to store other things.

 
CATCH YOU LATER,
     ROBO

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Aug 29 08:19:38 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:19:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808290719u6b18419ufe9da85e9b614237@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:53 PM, Wayne <cornerexit at gmail.com> wrote:
> For all my life I ve used low quality (craftsman) ratchets for my wrenching.
> At one time I had one high quality SK but I lost it in a move one year. The
> craftsman ratchets I have are junk. They take 600 degrees of movement to
> ratchet one click, and they are not durable at all. I m tired of having to
> take them to sears only to have sears give me another one with a  rebuild
> kit in it that is just the same junk.
>
>
>
> I am going to replace my <, 3/8, and = drive craftsman ratchets with
> something of higher quality and precision. I want a ratchet that doesn t
> require half a football field of movement just to ratchet ahead one click.
> I want to buy fixed head version and flex head versions, but I don t want
> the typical flex head design that pivots outside the perimeter of the head.
> You probably know the type, many of them end up as  floppies  which won t
> hold a position and have no means of tightening the pivot.
>
>

I've got this ratchet:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=&item_ID=81186&group_ID=20864&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

(I've actually got a set of three, one each drive size).  It has a set
screw that lets you adjust the tension.  It's also got a locking
mechanism, that holds the handle in the position you set it.  It's got
10 or 12 positions, over a bit more than 180 degrees.  I like them
quite a lot.  My favorite flexing handle ratchet is this one:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=&item_ID=81185&group_ID=20864&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

Mine's old, and doesn't have a tension adjustment.  I believe new ones
do.  I complained that it had gotten floppied to the Snap-On guy.  He
drove the pin out, whacked the yoke with a hammer, put the pin back,
and it's better than new.  This one has a bend in the handle, which
gives your knuckles a bit of clearance.  It also makes it possible to
use the ratchet as a spinner.  Current production ones have 4.5
degrees per click.

I've also got and use a MAC "zero-degree" ratchet.  It's not a
ratchet, really, but it's got a mechanism that allows you rotate it
any amount, with zero back-lash.  I don't particuarly like it, but
it's very useful for some low clearance fasteners.  Some people I know
love them.  MAC now make flex head versions, too.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Aug 29 09:06:32 2008
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] church keys
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080828172314.00ba7df8@mail.blarg.net>
Message-ID: <515293.19661.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks so much!  I just ordered half a dozen.

Doug


--- Todd Walke <racertod at racertodd.com> wrote:

> Doug wrote:
> 
> >Has anyone ever seen a church-key beer opener
> >available in stainless steel?  I have a couple of
> the
> >ones with crappy chrome-plating, and they always
> start
> >rusting after a while...
> 
> Only a buck:
>
http://www.homebarsource.com/All-Stainless-Steel-Bottle-Can-Opener-p/7010.htm

From obaa996 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 29 10:22:14 2008
From: obaa996 at yahoo.com (Obaa)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:22:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23731.1220011505.1200.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <814124.3512.qm@web54301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Speaking of quality ratchets, I have an old (circa 60's-70's?) Craftsman ratchet, which was a hand-me from my dad.  It's a good solid wrench, but recently gave up the ghost (a small cast metal piece inside broke).  I recall seeing rebuild kits at Sears, but it was many years ago, and I can't seem to find them now.  Does anyone know if those are still available any more?

Thanks!

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Aug 29 16:14:56 2008
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:14:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
In-Reply-To: <00b301c909d5$6fc36450$6401a8c0@niolon>
References: <OFCDACF1D1.40239749-ON852574B4.0030166A-852574B4.0030166F@mail.megageek.com>
	<00b301c909d5$6fc36450$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <07ae01c90a24$ac231310$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

I hang them all by the hook from the wire type shelving in my garage.  They
are in plain sight, not tangled and easily accessed.

Ropes I keep coiled up in "Bag'O-Ropes" a nylon stuff sack full of ropes of
different sizes and lengths.  That way, when I need a rope, I have a good
choice.  I also keep all of my extension cords on an old hose hanger in the
garage.

Jack
 
> I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs such 
> as
> ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc. Right now I keep
> all

From racertod at racertodd.com  Fri Aug 29 22:22:08 2008
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 21:22:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <F2A9F9444A24472FB7E0F817A00F60A5@KARL>
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
	<002c01c9098b$3f95b610$be347d80@B50SS> <48B779A5.1040009@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080829211759.00ba7f28@mail.blarg.net>

Karl wrote:

>There was a thread here years ago and someone worked at the company that
>made Craftsman, Snap-On, and a few other brands.  They don't make Craftsman
>any more.

         I've kept this post since it appeared on the list in 2003.  It was 
a repost of a message from 1999 off some other list from a guy that worked 
at Stanley:

I'm not the final word on tools by any means, but since I work in the
business, I've learned a little bit about it. Okay, here's more than you
ever wanted to know. As someone pointed out in a previous post, Lowes now
(as of earlier this year) is selling a line of Mechanics Tools called Kobalt
which is made by Snap-On. They are good tools. Home Depot's Husky brand is
made by Stanley Mechanics Tools, a division of the Stanley Works. Husky are
also good tools and have a good lifetime warranty (they'll even replace your
broken Craftsman with an equivalent Husky). Until 1994 or so, Stanley also
made Sears Craftsman tools. Sears Craftsman is now made by Danaher Tools.
They beat out Stanley on the contract over price. Danaher also manufactures
MatCo Tools, the third largest player in the Mobile Automotive industry
(behind MAC and Snap-On). Odds are, if you own any Craftsman tools that are
older than about five years ago, they were made by Stanley in plants in
Dallas, Texas, Witchita Falls, Texas, and Sabina, Ohio. Stanley also owns
MAC Tools and manufactures MAC tools in the same plants. Now here's the
kicker: MAC Tools, Proto Tools (a very expensive industrial brand), Husky
Tools, and, (prior to five or so years ago) Craftsman Tools are all made
from the same forgings in the same plants. Proto is unique because it goes
through additional testing and certification because it is used by NASA, the
military, and industrial customers (including General Motors). There are
three MAJOR players in the USA mechanics tool business: Stanley, Danaher,
and Snap-On. Stanley and Danaher (almost identical in sales revenue at about
$28 billion each) are the biggest followed by Snap-On. Each of these three
manufacture and sell tools under a variety of brands (there are many other
brands that Stanley makes that I haven't even named). The quality between
these three manufacturers is roughly the same. I know its a bit of a
let-down to hear that, but its a simple fact. Then there are a hand full of
other minor players (Vermont American, etc) and an endless list of Taiwanese
import tool companies (some of which Stanley own as well as Danaher to serve
the lower end consumer import brands at WalMart, etc). How do I know all of
this? I work for Stanley Mechanics Tools, specifically with the Proto
Industrial brand. I personally do not think that MAC, MatCo, or Snap-On
branded tools are worth the extra markup since they use the same forgings
and manufacturing processes that make Husky and Kobalt and pre-1994
Craftsman. Where you need to pay attention are things like ratchets and
torque wrenches. There are different specifications of ratchets and you do
pay for the difference. Some mechanics require a finer, more precise
ratcheting mechanism than guys like me who just bang around in the garage on
the weekends. By the way, Metwrench is basically considered a "gimick"
infomercial tool brand that is not considered as a serious competitor to
Danaher, Snap-On, or Stanley. Then again, IBM once didn't see Microsoft as a
serious force in the personal computer business.
Hmmmm.... Regards, Greg Hutmacher (now back in lurk mode)


Todd
Seattle,WA
'86 GTI, Red of course. (exciting racey car) 268,000 miles
'01 Golf TDI, silver.   (new work car)       176,000 miles
'87 Golf, Polar Silver. (retired work car)   654,000 miles <- Gone to a new 
home :(
http://www.pureluckdesign.com <-Ferrari & VW stuff

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Fri Aug 29 22:43:29 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 04:43:29 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <083020080443.1924.48B8CFF1000B286400000784220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I remember that thread!

kobalt is made by williams, which also owns snap-on.  kobalt is not made by snap-on.

and the mac/craftsman/husky tools do not all use the same forgings.  I have some mac ratchets that do not have a comparable (older) craftsman model--they're just too differently shaped to come off the same forging/die.  and like he said--you can't get the mac ratchet mechanism anywhere but mac.  well, the *really* old craftsman stuff is pretty nice--like 40-50 years ago.  but everything that's stanley craftsman from the mid-'80s on, not as much.

now the new craftsman stuff is obviously matco.  it's just not polished.  I don't like matco, but if I did, I'd just shop sears instead.   the kobalt stuff I've seen does not seem to share any snap-on stuff.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Todd Walke <racertod at racertodd.com>

>          I've kept this post since it appeared on the list in 2003.  It was 
> a repost of a message from 1999 off some other list from a guy that worked 
> at Stanley:

<snip>

> Then again, IBM once didn't see Microsoft as a
> serious force in the personal computer business.
> Hmmmm.... Regards, Greg Hutmacher (now back in lurk mode)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Aug 30 18:28:44 2008
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 20:28:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <083020080443.1924.48B8CFF1000B286400000784220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <083020080443.1924.48B8CFF1000B286400000784220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40808301728q2abfe61cpacbd566407c29900@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 12:43 AM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> I remember that thread!
>
> kobalt is made by williams, which also owns snap-on.  kobalt is not made by snap-on.
>

Kobalt is Lowes's brand.  They shop it around, like Sears does with
craftsman.  It's my understanding that it's mostly no longer made by
Williams, who are owned *by* Snap-On[1], not the other way around.
The current stuff is junk, so I don't really care.

[1] Snap-On is a huge company, with about 3 billion dollars/year in
revenue.  They do a whole lot more than the guys in the trucks sell.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dirtbeard at pacbell.net  Sat Aug 30 19:17:35 2008
From: dirtbeard at pacbell.net (old dirtbeard)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 18:17:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
References: <083020080443.1924.48B8CFF1000B286400000784220288874404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40808301728q2abfe61cpacbd566407c29900@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c90b07$5a8d0e00$d7d07d80@B50SS>

Hi Shop Talkers,

This is one of those biased "I have been smoking unfiltered Camels for 30 
years and they have not hurt me yet" type bromides, but I started off buying 
SK tools as a kid as they were the best end wrenches I could find for 
working on British motorcycles once they went to the fractional system. SK 
box-end wrenches were the only ones I could find that would fit the base jug 
nuts on the Triumphs, a whole bunch of nuts on the top end of the BSA B50's, 
so I started buying them. The sockets and box-end wrenches are very thin 
wall and will fit in places that most wrenches will not.

Over the last 30 plus years, I have found them to be the best wrenches on 
the market. They are not cheap, but I don't feel ripped-off when I buy one. 
They are a joy to use, particularly if you are working on old English bikes 
and cars. They are more slender and the box ends are very thin.

And as I was proselytizing before, the SK Roto Ratchet is the best tool in 
my garage.

Your mileage may vary.

best,

shook
____________________
'72 BSA B50SS
'74 Triumph TR6
'01 HD XLH 883
'03 GMC Cargo Van
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
To: <scott.hall at comcast.net>
Cc: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets


> On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 12:43 AM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I remember that thread!
>>
>> kobalt is made by williams, which also owns snap-on.  kobalt is not made 
>> by snap-on.
>>
>
> Kobalt is Lowes's brand.  They shop it around, like Sears does with
> craftsman.  It's my understanding that it's mostly no longer made by
> Williams, who are owned *by* Snap-On[1], not the other way around.
> The current stuff is junk, so I don't really care.
>
> [1] Snap-On is a huge company, with about 3 billion dollars/year in
> revenue.  They do a whole lot more than the guys in the trucks sell.
>
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> You are subscribed as dirtbeard at pacbell.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Aug 30 19:38:37 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 01:38:37 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <083120080138.23647.48B9F61D0006F12300005C5F220073474804040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

and s-k ratchets have (or used to a few years back) the facom meachanism.  very nice.  and the s-k version doesn't have the rubber handle.  mine has become my track ratchet.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "old dirtbeard" <dirtbeard at pacbell.net>
> Hi Shop Talkers,
> 
> This is one of those biased "I have been smoking unfiltered Camels for 30 
> years and they have not hurt me yet" type bromides, but I started off buying 
> SK tools as a kid as they were the best end wrenches I could find for 
> working on British motorcycles once they went to the fractional system. SK 
> box-end wrenches were the only ones I could find that would fit the base jug 
> nuts on the Triumphs, a whole bunch of nuts on the top end of the BSA B50's, 
> so I started buying them. The sockets and box-end wrenches are very thin 
> wall and will fit in places that most wrenches will not.
> 
> Over the last 30 plus years, I have found them to be the best wrenches on 
> the market. They are not cheap, but I don't feel ripped-off when I buy one. 
> They are a joy to use, particularly if you are working on old English bikes 
> and cars. They are more slender and the box ends are very thin.
> 
> And as I was proselytizing before, the SK Roto Ratchet is the best tool in 
> my garage.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Aug 30 19:51:26 2008
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 01:51:26 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <083120080151.5150.48B9F91E0008BB900000141E220073474804040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I'm just reading this thread from the beginning...wayne, you can get the s-k roto-head with the facom 72-tooth mechanism.  or at least you could.

I think mytoolstore is where I got all my facom/s-k stuff, but griots has (or used to have it) also.

the mac and facom/s-k are the nicest ratchets going. 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 30 20:56:11 2008
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:56:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <083120080151.5150.48B9F91E0008BB900000141E220073474804040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <083120080151.5150.48B9F91E0008BB900000141E220073474804040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360808301956o69afa609n590f5fba9a91191@mail.gmail.com>

*I have a couple of those li'l 3/8 drive Snapon rachets built in a 1/4 drive
handle,*
*Model FM 70 . . handiest thing in the box but they get misused and both
have been broken for 15 years.  The Snapon site doesn't recognize the FM 70
. . anyone know off their head-top if some other rachet's repair will help
them and if repair kits generally contain the direction lever?*
*Tony  *

From Carscarscarz at aol.com  Sun Aug 31 00:01:18 2008
From: Carscarscarz at aol.com (Carscarscarz at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 02:01:18 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets Snapon FM 70
Message-ID: <d3f.2c847d0e.35eb8dae@aol.com>

>>>>*I have a couple of those li'l 3/8 drive Snap-On rachets built in a 1/4
drive
handle,*
*Model FM 70 . . handiest thing in the box but they get misused and both
have been broken for 15 years.

I have one that's about 30 years old - don't remember the date code. It's not
used much but is really handy when needed.

Snap-On changed the part number to FM 70A and then to B (I think). They do
have repair kits. The new sealed head version is FC 936:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=&item_ID=54380&group_ID=12898
&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

The index page for repair parts are:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/parts/product_directory.asp?pid=333151

It may take a while to search through to find what you need. A dealer would
know which kit you need since the basic ratchet mechanisms are common to a
range of handles.

HTH,

~Steve
**************
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel
deal here.

(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

From jdrush at enter.net  Sun Aug 31 09:57:04 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:57:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
In-Reply-To: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
References: <F0E648A45C7745D0813F74EB28F100BB@wayneshop>
Message-ID: <48BABF50.30901@enter.net>

I've been shopping new ratchets and sockets to replace my inadequate 
Craftsman set too. I purchased these ratchets for tight spaces. Proto 
Blackhawk Rotators in 3/8" and 1/2"
<http://www.stanleyproto.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=BH%5FRATCHET&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=34950R&SDesc=3%2F8%26%2334%3B+Rotator%26%23153%3B+Ratchet> 
They work like a charm for nuts where you just don't have any swing, but 
the handle is too loosey-goosey for everyday ratcheting. Shame they 
don't offer a 1/4" BTW, Proto and Proto Blackhawk are Stanley 
companies, so Rotators can also be found under other Stanley brands for 
cheaper, although I got mine for $20 each from eBay!

I've also got very lucky on eBay recently with Facom palm-control, 
comfort-grip ratchets. 
<http://www.pro.facom.fr/CatalogueGeneral/Catalogue/PAG-CAT-02.aspx> I 
was able to get 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 ratchets, in separate auctions, for 
about a quarter of retail, the only way I could afford them. They are 
superb everyday ratchets, but very pricey in the US if you are buying 
retail. I love Steve at UltimateGarage.com, but he is the most expensive 
Facom dealer in the US. Harry Epstein 
http://www.harryepstein.com/sk-facom.htm can usually be counted on to 
have some good deal on Facom and many other tool brands. I've gotten a 
lot of good deals on Facom stuff from this eBay seller. 
http://myworld.ebay.com/kgtoolshop. This guy also carries a lot of Facom 
deals. http://stores.ebay.com/KOMMEN-Closeouts BTW, FACOM is also a 
Stanley company. http://www.stanleyworks.com/bu_facomtools.asp

If I sound like a Facom fanboy, I am. Many of my handtools have been 
gradually converted over to Facom and I have been very pleased with all 
of them.

Last, but not least, I am thinking of picking up this set of Gearwrench 
ratchets that most resembles your specs. 
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280215429675> 
Or maybe this KD Tools ratchet for added flexibility. 
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360051244456>

BBTW, SK tools recently became an independent company again. 
http://www.skhandtool.com/Default.aspx?fusemode=15 They were purchased 
by Stanley and merged with Facom for a few years. So many of the product 
are strikingly similar or the same, just with a different name printed 
on them. You still see a lot of SK/Facom tools being advertised on the 
net. I'm thinking of getting SK 6-point sockets to replace my Craftsman 
sets, because they offer flats-grip profiles in every one.

Jon

Wayne wrote:
> I am going to replace my <, 3/8, and = drive craftsman ratchets with
> something of higher quality and precision. I want a ratchet that doesnt
> require half a football field of movement just to ratchet ahead one click.
> I want to buy fixed head version and flex head versions, but I dont want
> the typical flex head design that pivots outside the perimeter of the head.
> You probably know the type, many of them end up as floppies which wont
> hold a position and have no means of tightening the pivot.

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Aug 31 10:02:36 2008
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:02:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality Ratchets
Message-ID: <200808311602.m7VG2ZEs024068@moose.dimebank.com>

I've got a FACOM flex head ratchet and really like it - but I'm
intrigued by the idea of the SK Roto design with the FACOM 
ratchet mechanism. All the SK Roto handles that I can find on
the web are 36-tooth, which doesn't sound like the FACOM mechanism...
where can I (still) find this combination?

From jdrush at enter.net  Sun Aug 31 10:12:06 2008
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:12:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing tie-downs
In-Reply-To: <BEEA8862-0B8E-48FE-84D8-36C53EFF3CAC@groupwbench.org>
References: <37D01EA4D9DC4B51918FFF93DBA7D502@wayneshop>
	<BEEA8862-0B8E-48FE-84D8-36C53EFF3CAC@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <48BAC2D6.4040007@enter.net>

Hang a bathroom towel bar or heavy wooden-dowel curtain rod on the wall, 
about as high as you can reach. If you don't want the lower strap hook 
dangling to catch an eye, hang that end on the bar as well. I laugh when 
I see those expensive aluminum strap hangers sold for race trailers. 
Some people got more money than sense.

Jon

Jim Franklin wrote:
> On Aug 28, 2008, at 11:01 PM, Wayne wrote:
> 
>> I was curious if people have any creative ways of storing tie-downs  
>> such as
>> ratchet straps, motorcycle tie-downs, bungee cords etc.
> 
> ROws of bicycle hooks strategically spaced on the wall. It requires a  
> lot of dedicated wall space though.

From mbarre at juno.com  Sun Aug 31 19:43:02 2008
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 01:43:02 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
Message-ID: <20080831.214302.17254.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

As I finally get around to plumbing the shop for air, I am also thinking about
converting my 1/4" fittings to 3/8".  I currently have a mix and it can be
frustrating getting things matched up so I am looking to reduce one
variable...
Over the years I have picked up several of the 1/4" kits that typically
include air gun, fittings, etc.  Does anyone have similar in 3/8"?  HF didn't
show anything in 3/8".
Matt
____________________________________________________________
Click to for great deals on pitching machines and baseballs.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mj5bCXGbMmLpBSsEZo8HLxPqTp
VBEC8SOty1UKcYTqbqYGC/

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Aug 31 22:15:10 2008
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 00:15:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Squirrel in basement
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0809010014220.23476@thunder.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

What're my options for getting rid of a squirrel in the basement?

Dead or alive.  Easy is better than not easy.

I don't want to shoot a shotgun in the house.

Mark

From robolane at sbcglobal.net  Sun Aug 31 22:32:05 2008
From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (ROBERT LANE)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 21:32:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Catching squirrel in basement.
Message-ID: <694115.63561.qm@web82008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Get a live animal trap and bait with walnut or corn or other bait.  You could also use a steel trap.

 
CATCH YOU LATER,
     ROBO

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Aug 31 22:44:21 2008
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 21:44:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] air fttings
In-Reply-To: <20080831.214302.17254.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20080901044421.HEEI27910.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@randall>

> Over the years I have picked up several of the 1/4" kits that 
> typically include air gun, fittings, etc.  Does anyone have 
> similar in 3/8"?  HF didn't show anything in 3/8".

http://www.mcmaster.com/
Has them in sizes up to 1".  Not as cheap as HF, but a quality product.

Randall