From eric at megageek.com  Mon Oct  1 06:25:49 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:25:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
Message-ID: <OF8F36B231.8DA31FA0-ON85257367.00444841-85257367.00444845@mail.megageek.com>

Since this is brought up, I have a side question.

I have a brand new 45 HP tractor.  I always see 3-pt hitch mount generators
that go pretty cheap for their KW output.

I was thinking that for the price, I could have a nice genny sitting around
(with no motor to maintain), then when I need it, just drive the tractor
over to the basement window and have a power cable that feeds a manual cut
off box.  The tractor could just sit outside running.  Another nice thing
about this is that if one of my buddies looses power, they can borrow the
genie without me worrying about them trashing the motor.  (only my friends
with tractors could borrow it, and they all take care of things.)  8>)

Also, I have a few "home heating oil tanks" on the property, one is filled
to JUST be used as fuel for the tractor.  So I wouldn't risk running out of
fuel.  (over 500 gals of fuel on the property at a min. all the time.)  (I
wonder why the local PD calls my place "The Compound?"  8>)

So, does anyone have any experience?  Any pros or cons?


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct  1 09:00:31 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:00:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <OF8F36B231.8DA31FA0-ON85257367.00444841-85257367.00444845@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF8F36B231.8DA31FA0-ON85257367.00444841-85257367.00444845@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <011201c8043b$d008fa50$701aeef0$@net>

That's a cool idea - Does it run off the PTO?

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
eric at megageek.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:26 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Generator thread

Since this is brought up, I have a side question.

I have a brand new 45 HP tractor.  I always see 3-pt hitch mount generators
that go pretty cheap for their KW output.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 09:08:03 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:08:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <011201c8043b$d008fa50$701aeef0$@net>
References: <OF8F36B231.8DA31FA0-ON85257367.00444841-85257367.00444845@mail.megageek.com>
	<011201c8043b$d008fa50$701aeef0$@net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710010808yfb118kf4fd5fd0a71a56c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/07, Ron Schmittou <rs1121 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> That's a cool idea - Does it run off the PTO?
>

Yup.  They're cheap because you only buy a generator, not an engine.
If you use them for more than a few hours, I expect the running costs
are much higher.  Wear on a tractor engine is more expensive than on a
stand-alone engine.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Oct  1 10:51:42 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:51:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] fresh oil stain on concrete floor
References: <000801c8037d$193072e0$2c357d80@XLH883><46FFD7E1.30209@pacbell.net><3.0.5.32.20070930193120.00aca958@pop.east.cox.net>
	<004f01c803bc$c6aa1770$2c357d80@XLH883>
Message-ID: <007601c8044b$586f5a10$6e01a8c0@KARL>

The old standbys have usually worked OK for me too.  However...

If there's still some stain left, the expensive but easy and extremely 
effective solution is "Pour N Restore".  In fact, it was on "Two Guys 
Garage" yesterday, where they used it to clean oil soaked into a concrete 
block, which is much more absorptive and harder to clean than a garage 
floor.

Just pour it on and let it dry,  It goes into the concrete and lifts oil 
out, and dries to a powder that sucks up oil and you justy sweep it away. 
Worked on my then-new exposed-aggregate driveway 2 years ago when PS fluid 
ate through the sealer and soaked in.  Simple Green, Tide, mineral spirits, 
and lacquer thinner didn't take that much of the mess away, but the first 
application of Pour N Restore made all but a few spots (where I hadn't put 
much on) absolutely as new.

It's solvent-free, I presume something like a mix of limonene and Fuller's 
earth.

Karl



>>>It is working like a champ, though. I also used my heavy floor jack with
>> large
>>>steel wheels to roll through the litter. It really pulverized and ground
>>>in
>>>the litter (also no YouTube risk with this one).
>>
>> Doug,
>>
>> I've found using an old brick works great!!  Easier to move around, and
>> more
>> controlable than my floor jack.  If you can handle getting down on your
>> hands
>> and knees.
>
> Dear John,
>
> Ahh, that makes perfect sense. Heavy enough that you do not have to do all
> the work and small enough to be manageable and to be able to work the bad
> spots. Thanks for the tip, I will use it.
>>
>> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
>> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
>
> kudos on both lines...
>
> This is a great list.
>
> best,
>
> doug 

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 12:06:42 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:06:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710010808yfb118kf4fd5fd0a71a56c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF8F36B231.8DA31FA0-ON85257367.00444841-85257367.00444845@mail.megageek.com>
	<011201c8043b$d008fa50$701aeef0$@net>
	<2400a5d40710010808yfb118kf4fd5fd0a71a56c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360710011106u1d927fd2g1a9fad37640fc178@mail.gmail.com>

> Yup.  They're cheap because you only buy a generator, not an engine.
> If you use them for more than a few hours, I expect the running costs
> are much higher.  Wear on a tractor engine is more expensive than on a
> stand-alone engine.


*I think you'll be surprised here . . the diesel tractor engine is good for
tens of thousands of hours of very efficient operation with normal
maintenance.  I did the math on a Perkins engined Massey 235 38 pro hp
tractor:  It'll deliver 17 horsepower for an hour on one gallon of fuel and
17 hp will gen up lots of electrics.  Sounds like a great plan.*
*Tony
*

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Oct  1 12:28:24 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011416430.2541@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Ok, I need six new socket organizers (new toolbox setup with 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 
sockets in metric and english).  I think for this one I want those plastic 
rails with the clips that use ball bearings.  Like the metal clips except 
for the part about how I don't throw them through the window because they 
work and don't stick or pull the clip off or whatever.  I have to store 
the sockets on their sides due to drawer height.

Anyway, a local tool guy has 'em for around $10/rail.  Anyone know of a 
better place / price?

I'm not sure who makes them other than VIM.

Looks like Ernst also has something similar for less money 
(http://www.ernstmfg.com/products_socket_organizers.php), but I'm not sure 
how well the sockets go on and off.  Anyone used one of these?

My other alternative is to go with the Lisle socket trays like I use on my 
main toolbox.  I was hoping to find something that was a little more 
portable & which took a little less room.

Any pointers?

Thanks!

Mark

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Oct  1 12:53:32 2007
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:53:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011416430.2541@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <000601c8045c$5d1cf3e0$95281aac@behavioral.com>

I have these

http://www.homier.com/detail.asp?SessionKey=INx3EljwtycwMKnPL0RzfRuPMUW16%2fDdZZc313gxHwhAvBUI4Tq%2bqupKYv0WkVrQes8waF%2bC9B6C&dpt=&cat=&sku=01490

and these

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00941829000P?vName=Tools&keyword=socket+holder

The only difference that I can see is that the Craftsman's have the word "Craftsman" on them, they come in both gray and black, and 
are three times the price, but only twice the price if you catch a Sears sale. The socket posts off one fit on the other so ...

Arvid


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again


> Howdy,
>
> Ok, I need six new socket organizers (new toolbox setup with 1/4, 3/8, 1/2
> sockets in metric and english).  I think for this one I want those plastic
> rails with the clips that use ball bearings.  Like the metal clips except
> for the part about how I don't throw them through the window because they
> work and don't stick or pull the clip off or whatever.  I have to store
> the sockets on their sides due to drawer height.
>
> Anyway, a local tool guy has 'em for around $10/rail.  Anyone know of a
> better place / price?
>
> I'm not sure who makes them other than VIM.
>
> Looks like Ernst also has something similar for less money
> (http://www.ernstmfg.com/products_socket_organizers.php), but I'm not sure
> how well the sockets go on and off.  Anyone used one of these?
>
> My other alternative is to go with the Lisle socket trays like I use on my
> main toolbox.  I was hoping to find something that was a little more
> portable & which took a little less room.
>
> Any pointers?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> arvidj at visi.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct  1 13:11:14 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:11:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360710011106u1d927fd2g1a9fad37640fc178@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF8F36B231.8DA31FA0-ON85257367.00444841-85257367.00444845@mail.megageek.com>
	<011201c8043b$d008fa50$701aeef0$@net>	
	<2400a5d40710010808yfb118kf4fd5fd0a71a56c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ea2385360710011106u1d927fd2g1a9fad37640fc178@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01ab01c8045e$d6a629f0$83f27dd0$@net>

Ours is an old ford 4cyl propane - looks to have been made that way - I'm
guessing it was built in the 60's, but I don't think you could wear it out
if you tried.  I am amazed at how long it runs before needing to recharge it
from the storage tank.

 

From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark [mailto:eltonclark at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:07 PM
To: David Scheidt
Cc: Ron Schmittou; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Generator thread

 


Yup.  They're cheap because you only buy a generator, not an engine.
If you use them for more than a few hours, I expect the running costs 
are much higher.  Wear on a tractor engine is more expensive than on a
stand-alone engine.

 

I think you'll be surprised here . . the diesel tractor engine is good for
tens of thousands of hours of very efficient operation with normal
maintenance.  I did the math on a Perkins engined Massey 235 38 pro hp
tractor:  It'll deliver 17 horsepower for an hour on one gallon of fuel and
17 hp will gen up lots of electrics.  Sounds like a great plan. 

Tony

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Oct  1 13:09:47 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:09:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011416430.2541@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011416430.2541@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <C4A4D49A1A9B4E27A7E57294DA102D30@OwnerPC>

Mark,

I have these from sears 'sept mine are gray.  They will hold all your 
sockets (one of each) in one drawer standing up with the size right beside 
the hole for the socket. This the the best system I"ve found with the 
possible exception of the ones that have a post you slip your socket over. 
My oddball sockets and the multiple sets are all in another drawer on rails.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00965165000P?vName=Tools&keyword=SOCKET+ORGANIZERS

I don't like the rail type for the reasons you mentioned and I've never had 
a job away from my tool box that required more than two or three sizes... 
why carry 15 sockets ???.

john

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again


> Howdy,
>
> Ok, I need six new socket organizers (new toolbox setup with 1/4, 3/8, 1/2
> sockets in metric and english).  I think for this one I want those plastic
> rails with the clips that use ball bearings.  Like the metal clips except
> for the part about how I don't throw them through the window because they
> work and don't stick or pull the clip off or whatever.  I have to store
> the sockets on their sides due to drawer height.
>
> Anyway, a local tool guy has 'em for around $10/rail.  Anyone know of a
> better place / price?
>
> I'm not sure who makes them other than VIM.
>
> Looks like Ernst also has something similar for less money
> (http://www.ernstmfg.com/products_socket_organizers.php), but I'm not sure
> how well the sockets go on and off.  Anyone used one of these?
>
> My other alternative is to go with the Lisle socket trays like I use on my
> main toolbox.  I was hoping to find something that was a little more
> portable & which took a little less room.
>
> Any pointers?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Oct  1 14:00:35 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:00:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again
In-Reply-To: <000601c8045c$5d1cf3e0$95281aac@behavioral.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011416430.2541@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<000601c8045c$5d1cf3e0$95281aac@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011558260.15659@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Cool!  Thanks for the info.

The Homier ones came up at $0.99 each, but it sorta indicated that they 
came in a set of three... I ordered 10, just because it was worth a little 
bit more if it really was per single or whatever (though I dunno how 
they'd get the size?)

Anyway, total was only a bit under $20, so that certainly saves me a ton 
of money over the price at the local tool place (which was $10 per rail).

Thanks!

Mark

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:

> I have these
>
> http://www.homier.com/detail.asp?SessionKey=INx3EljwtycwMKnPL0RzfRuPMUW16%2fDdZZc313gxHwhAvBUI4Tq%2bqupKYv0WkVrQes8waF%2bC9B6C&dpt=&cat=&sku=01490
>
> and these
>
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00941829000P?vName=Tools&keyword=socket+holder
>
> The only difference that I can see is that the Craftsman's have the word 
> "Craftsman" on them, they come in both gray and black, and are three times 
> the price, but only twice the price if you catch a Sears sale. The socket 
> posts off one fit on the other so ...
>
> Arvid
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
> To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:28 PM
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again
>
>
>> Howdy,
>> 
>> Ok, I need six new socket organizers (new toolbox setup with 1/4, 3/8, 1/2
>> sockets in metric and english).  I think for this one I want those plastic
>> rails with the clips that use ball bearings.  Like the metal clips except
>> for the part about how I don't throw them through the window because they
>> work and don't stick or pull the clip off or whatever.  I have to store
>> the sockets on their sides due to drawer height.
>> 
>> Anyway, a local tool guy has 'em for around $10/rail.  Anyone know of a
>> better place / price?
>> 
>> I'm not sure who makes them other than VIM.
>> 
>> Looks like Ernst also has something similar for less money
>> (http://www.ernstmfg.com/products_socket_organizers.php), but I'm not sure
>> how well the sockets go on and off.  Anyone used one of these?
>> 
>> My other alternative is to go with the Lisle socket trays like I use on my
>> main toolbox.  I was hoping to find something that was a little more
>> portable & which took a little less room.
>> 
>> Any pointers?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Mark
>> _______________________________________________
>> arvidj at visi.com
>> 
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>> 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Oct  1 14:18:15 2007
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:18:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011416430.2541@mephisto.banklogic.net><000601c8045c$5d1cf3e0$95281aac@behavioral.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011558260.15659@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <008301c80468$3333ecd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>

Yes, they are three sticks to a package - "one stick for 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 drive" per package.

Arvid

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy" <mark at sccaprepared.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again


> Howdy,
> 
> Cool!  Thanks for the info.
> 
> The Homier ones came up at $0.99 each, but it sorta indicated that they 
> came in a set of three... I ordered 10, just because it was worth a little 
> bit more if it really was per single or whatever (though I dunno how 
> they'd get the size?)
> 
> Anyway, total was only a bit under $20, so that certainly saves me a ton 
> of money over the price at the local tool place (which was $10 per rail).
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Oct  1 14:22:43 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:22:43 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Socket organizers again
Message-ID: <100120072022.26273.47015713000664BB000066A122007511509D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "john niolon" <jniolon at bham.rr.com>
> Mark,
> 
> I have these from sears 'sept mine are gray.  They will hold all your 
> sockets (one of each) in one drawer standing up with the size right beside 
> the hole for the socket. This the the best system I"ve found with the 
> possible exception of the ones that have a post you slip your socket over. 
> My oddball sockets and the multiple sets are all in another drawer on rails.
> 
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00965165000P?vName=Tools&keyword=SOCKET
> +ORGANIZERS

My answer is exactly the same.  Fills two drawers of a Craftsman roller.  One drawer for SAE, one for Metric.  Some of the holes were slightly too small for some of my not-so-thin-wall sockets, but a quick sweep with a deburring tool did the trick.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Oct  1 20:47:59 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 19:47:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071001193847.027dd908@incoming.verizon.net>

I've seen these, too.  As I have both a 16 and a 30 HP diesel tractor I had 
given them some thought, as well.  The cons, as I see it and as have been 
pointed out to me by others, are as follows:

         You might need your tractor for moving downed trees, clearing 
snow, etc at the same time you are also generating power.

         Generators have a regulator that controls the speed, which 
controls the voltage/frequency.  You would probably need to add a frequency 
meter to the generator and you would probably be fiddling with the throttle 
all the time to maintain the correct voltage and frequency, and stand a 
chance to blow up any frequency sensitive equipment such as TVs, 
microwaves, computers, etc;

         Power losses through the PTO are substantial, but with a 45 HP 
tractor you wouldn't have much to worry about; you have plenty of 
reserve.  However, you will be running a 45 HP tractor the whole time 
regardless if you need the output or not, with the subsequent fuel 
consumption.  ;

         Don't underestimate the PITA factor of hooking up a 3 point 
generator in the dark/rain/snow/middle of the night/etc.  I have a 3 point 
PTO chipper, tiller and brush hog, and some days they are a huge pain to 
install in broad daylight after a good breakfast.  I would rather just flip 
a couple of switches.

         The pros, of  course, are first cost, and portability.  However, 
my take on PTO powered generators is that they would be better for 
"non-emergency" power generation such as running a shop full of tools at a 
remote site, than as a back up emergency generator.

Of course, this is all my opinion, and everyone is free to poke holes in my 
argument.  I'm probably going to go with the propane/gas setup, if I can 
talk my propane supplier to bring me a bigger tank for little or no cost.

Dave

At 08:25 AM  10/1/2007  -0400, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>Since this is brought up, I have a side question.
>
>I have a brand new 45 HP tractor.  I always see 3-pt hitch mount generators
>that go pretty cheap for their KW output.
>
>I was thinking that for the price, I could have a nice genny sitting around
>(with no motor to maintain), then when I need it, just drive the tractor
>over to the basement window and have a power cable that feeds a manual cut
>off box.  The tractor could just sit outside running.  Another nice thing
>about this is that if one of my buddies looses power, they can borrow the
>genie without me worrying about them trashing the motor.  (only my friends
>with tractors could borrow it, and they all take care of things.)  8>)
>
>Also, I have a few "home heating oil tanks" on the property, one is filled
>to JUST be used as fuel for the tractor.  So I wouldn't risk running out of
>fuel.  (over 500 gals of fuel on the property at a min. all the time.)  (I
>wonder why the local PD calls my place "The Compound?"  8>)
>
>So, does anyone have any experience?  Any pros or cons?
>
>
>Moose
>
>"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>      Tori Amos
>_______________________________________________
>cavanadd at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 21:24:54 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 23:24:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071001193847.027dd908@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20071001193847.027dd908@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710012024r17652feav2969649ae43fc5af@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/07, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:

>
>          Generators have a regulator that controls the speed, which
> controls the voltage/frequency.  You would probably need to add a frequency
> meter to the generator and you would probably be fiddling with the throttle
> all the time to maintain the correct voltage and frequency, and stand a
> chance to blow up any frequency sensitive equipment such as TVs,
> microwaves, computers, etc;

This shouldn't be a problem, as long as you're not at the absolute
limit of the tractor.  Tractors should be able to provide a consistent
540 RPMs on the PTO shaft.  That's what the throttle governor is for,
after all.  I wouldn't trust my tractors tach to show the right speed,
but it really will maintain the same engine speed, even when engaging
a heavy (for it) load.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct  1 21:39:02 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:39:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710012024r17652feav2969649ae43fc5af@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071002033901.BQWD20630.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> Tractors should be able to 
> provide a consistent 540 RPMs on the PTO shaft.  That's what 
> the throttle governor is for, after all.

I agree.  In addition, the voltage is controlled electronically (or
electro-mechanically if your generator is really, really old) so only the
frequency will vary with shaft rpm.  And these days, very few things care
much about frequency.  Computers, TV, microwave will run just as well on 50
Hz or 70 Hz as 60 Hz.

Just don't try to keep time by it <g>

Randall

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Oct  2 06:39:23 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:39:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
Message-ID: <OF63E382D5.14EE4676-ON85257368.00458611-85257368.00458617@mail.megageek.com>

This is the unit I'm thinking of...

<http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_36914_36914>


My idea would be to have it mounted in the basement near a window.  In case
I need it, I would just back the tractor up to the window and have a shaft
to put though the window and attach it to the genny.

There is also another unit...

<http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_119923_119923>


Which could run my whole house (would I need to use the car lift during a
power outage? 8>) )
But it's rated for a 47 HP tractor and I only have 45hp.  8>(

Any suggestions?

FWIW, I hear the drawbacks on the pto mount, but my tractor is stored
inside, so it's not a pain to disconnect the current PTO device, then warm
the unit up and drive over to the house.  Since it's just a shaft that
would go though the window, there isn't much hook up there.  If I need the
tractor for something else, I'm back to no power, but it would be just for
the time I using the tractor, and I have other toys that I could use
instead.  8>)



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Oct  2 10:15:22 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:15:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <OF63E382D5.14EE4676-ON85257368.00458611-85257368.00458617@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <20071002161522.YMRZ20630.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> Which could run my whole house (would I need to use the car 
> lift during a power outage? 8>) ) But it's rated for a 47 HP 
> tractor and I only have 45hp.

If your tractor is rated for 45hp at the PTO, then it's engine puts out a
fair amount more than that.  Since the ad specifically said "48hp *engine*"
...

Seriously, being a little underpowered just means you can't use the last few
Kw of output capacity.  Keep the load below max and you should be fine.

Or, here's your excuse for 'improving' the tractor ... <G>

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Oct  2 10:24:24 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:24:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Generator thread
In-Reply-To: <20071002161522.YMRZ20630.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <OF63E382D5.14EE4676-ON85257368.00458611-85257368.00458617@mail.megageek.com>
	<20071002161522.YMRZ20630.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710020924oe735312xacb9ff3b8d26b39f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/07, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> > Which could run my whole house (would I need to use the car
> > lift during a power outage? 8>) ) But it's rated for a 47 HP
> > tractor and I only have 45hp.
>
> If your tractor is rated for 45hp at the PTO, then it's engine puts out a
> fair amount more than that.  Since the ad specifically said "48hp *engine*"
> ...
>
> Seriously, being a little underpowered just means you can't use the last few
> Kw of output capacity.  Keep the load below max and you should be fine.
>

The rule of thumb for these things is 2HP, at the PTO shaft, per 1kW.
That's 66% input efficiency; the northern one is claiming 75%, which
is unlikely, at best.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Oct  2 13:05:20 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:05:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <6664F2B1741B43AAB1518E4AFF3ACC03@OwnerPC>

with all this discussion on generators... it reminded me

I have a like new Ronk 100amp manual transfer switch I'd like to sell.  Used
it back when I had a portable generator.  I've switched to a Generac 30kw
fully automatic system.

The switch sold for around $250.00  I'll take surprisingly less than
that...drop me a line if you're interested.

this is a nice piece of electrical equipment... it shouldn't be sitting on my
shelf.

John

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Tue Oct  2 22:02:35 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 04:02:35 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool questions...
Message-ID: <100320070402.26684.4703145B000267E30000683C220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

but if I get this taken care of, I can move on to building the garage mahal...

new house has pool.  we have never had pool.  I know how to swim...and that's it.  and if it isn't known on this list, it isn't knowable.

pertinent facts: called nearly all pool companies in book, went to two local pool-stuff stores.  the contractors are scary--one seemed drunk on phone and cursed me out for calling (the number in the yellow pages, at 2 p.m.)  in retrospect, he wasn't far from the mean.  these people are like roofing contractors after a bender.  what gives?  the stores only want me to buy what they have in stock, all else is total crap.

so...:

1) the in-pool light is out (in-ground, vinyl liner).  seems to have a screwed-in glass cover over the bulb?  are these all the same, and if so anybody know how to change it?  I assume it'd be stupid to pull the cover off an electric bulb base while submerged to my neck in water.  there must be a trick, and I doubt I'm intended to drain the pool, no?

2) the pump runs continuously.  seems expensive.  does it need to, or can I shut it off for hours/days at a time?

3) if not, can/should I buy a setup that doesn't require continuous pumping?  perhaps a variable-speed pump?

4) wife is sensitive to chlorine.  salt system--worth it?  quoted $1500 to retrofit.  cheap if it delivers what he promised.

5) (we're in north florida--never *cold* a few months of 'cool', maybe one or two months that you wouldn't want to be outside wet and mostly naked) pool heaters?  solar?  worth it?

6) there are leaves in it.  I assume I can buy a pool-roomba-type thing.  if I can, which?  or save the money and do it by hand?  if no robot, how do you get the crud off the bottom of the pool?  are there two separate systems--one floating and one mucking around on the floor?

7) friend says to use about 1/4 to 1/3 the recommended chlorine (because the guy doing the recommending is the guy selling the chlorine).  after the hard sell(s) I got, I'd be inclined to believe it.  sound reasonable?

8) (and the biggie).  our friends have a brick-coped vinyl pool.  I'd like to do this to mine.  I'm at least as capable as the drunk guy.  I assume there is cutting into the pool deck, etc., and I'm fine with this (it'll be after the garage anyway).  what I'd really like is a diy book on building an in-ground pool, installing liners, etc.  maybe shotcreting it when it's time to r&r the liner if I can rent the equipment.  I mean, in essence, this is a large garbage-bag-lined hole filled with water.  how (conceptually) hard can it be, really?

thanks guys.  wife and kid love pool.  I see large pit which I am supposed to fill with money.  the insurance premium spike alone...

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Oct  2 23:32:52 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:32:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool questions...
In-Reply-To: <100320070402.26684.4703145B000267E30000683C220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071003053252.MUAK21078.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>

> 1) the in-pool light is out (in-ground, vinyl liner).  seems 
> to have a screwed-in glass cover over the bulb?  are these 
> all the same, and if so anybody know how to change it?  I 
> assume it'd be stupid to pull the cover off an electric bulb 
> base while submerged to my neck in water.  there must be a 
> trick, and I doubt I'm intended to drain the pool, no?

Likely not all the same; but on mine you have to drain the pool.

> 2) the pump runs continuously.  seems expensive.  does it 
> need to, or can I shut it off for hours/days at a time?

Probably best to run it a few hours/day, depending on how dirty things get.
I run my in-ground 2 hrs/day when it's not in use (with a timer); but then I
have an automatic chlorinator and sweeper that are powered by the pump.

> 4) wife is sensitive to chlorine.  salt system--worth it?  
> quoted $1500 to retrofit.  cheap if it delivers what he promised.

I find that, if I keep the Ph where it belongs; keep the organic material
cleaned up (leaves and such), plus keep the filter clean, that I can run
much less chlorine than public pools run and still keep the algae down.  I
also use a small amount of copper-type algaecide.  It's kind of hard to find
in stores, since it's pretty poisonous in concentrated form; but I like it
because it's permanent.  1 or 2 ounces lasts an entire season; while the
other stuff takes a lot more and has to be repeated fairly often.

> 5) (we're in north florida--never *cold* a few months of 
> 'cool', maybe one or two months that you wouldn't want to be 
> outside wet and mostly naked) pool heaters?  solar?  worth it?

I live in a similar climate; have a gas-fired heater, but never use it for
the pool.

> 6) there are leaves in it.  I assume I can buy a 
> pool-roomba-type thing.  if I can, which?

I have Hayward Navigator; seems to work better than the previous Kreepy
Krawly for me.  But then my pool is plaster while yours is no doubt vinyl so
YMMV.

>  or save the money and do it by hand?

Gets really old, really fast, IMO.  When you find yourself not taking a swim
because you'd have to clean the pool first ...

>  if no robot, how do you get the crud off 
> the bottom of the pool?

1) Scoop up leaves and such with a net.
2) Vacuum up small dirt with a hose & vacuum that attaches to the suction
side of your pump.
3) For stubborn dirt, scrub with a brush on the end of a long pole.  You'll
want a softer brush for your vinyl, I mostly use the steel one.
4) Repeat as necessary

>  are there two separate systems--one 
> floating and one mucking around on the floor?

Yeah.  Should be a skimmer for things floating on top, while the automatic
or manual method takes care of the bottom.  For anything in between, you
either wait until it sinks, or net it.

> 7) friend says to use about 1/4 to 1/3 the recommended 
> chlorine (because the guy doing the recommending is the guy 
> selling the chlorine).  after the hard sell(s) I got, I'd be 
> inclined to believe it.  sound reasonable?

Home Depot has the best price on "stabilized" chlorine, which is far cheaper
in the long run than the liquid stuff.  Last time I bought, it was about $85
for 70 pounds, which lasts me about 10 months or so.  You'll need to get a
test kit there as well; plus the chemicals (muriatic acid, lye, soda ash,
sodium bicarbonate, etc.)   Experience will tell you how much your pool
needs. Too little, and you get green stuff (algae) growing (which has to be
attended to ASAP).  But be sure to get the Ph in range and keep it there !
More details at
http://www.deh.enr.state.nc.us/ehs/quality/wph.htm 


HD also has better prices on nets, poles, algaecide, etc.  I only go to the
"pool supply" for pump parts and whatnot.

> 8) (and the biggie).  our friends have a brick-coped vinyl 
> pool.  I'd like to do this to mine.

Sorry, no help there.  If I had it to do over again, I'd be more insistent
that we didn't want a pool.  For all the money and aggravation it's cost me
(not to mention worries about someone getting hurt); the municipal pool down
the road is a bargain.

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Oct  3 00:15:52 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 23:15:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool questions...
Message-ID: <200710030615.l936Fp4D030528@moose.dimebank.com>

> > 1) the in-pool light is out (in-ground, vinyl liner).  seems 
> > to have a screwed-in glass cover over the bulb?  are these 
> > all the same, and if so anybody know how to change it?  I 
> > assume it'd be stupid to pull the cover off an electric bulb 
> > base while submerged to my neck in water.  there must be a 
> > trick, and I doubt I'm intended to drain the pool, no?

It's *possible* (but perhaps not likely on a vinyl pool) that the
entire fixture comes out, and that there's enough slack to pull
it up out of the water for maintenance. That's how they were
on the pool I grew up with - but it was concrete.

No need to run the pump continuously. Run it enough to keep the
skimmer doing its job. 

A heater? In Florida? Pshaw. :-) We didn't have a heater in our
pool in Cincinnati ... we might have continued to swim for
another month if we did, but eventually the autumn leaf drop
got to be too much to keep after anyway (we were out of the
pool long before then).

It all depends on what you're used to, really. A good "solar cover"
can keep the water warm overnight - that's the biggest issue
for most of the year. 

I can't speak to your chlorine question - that's what we used.
As Randall says, keeping the pH in range is the most important.

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Wed Oct  3 03:53:02 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 05:53:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool questions...
References: <100320070402.26684.4703145B000267E30000683C220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c805a3$30209930$7029c40a@mde.state.md.us>

The bulb assembly behind that lens is completely sealed.  The lens is not 
sealed, there is water behind it.  The waterproof electrical cord from the 
bulb goes on up the conduit to a raised spot a few feet away, and joins into 
the main wiring.  It's very much a do it yourself job, with the pool full of 
water.  The sealed bulb unit is not cheap btw!

You'll probably regret turning the pump off, as pools muck up remarkably 
quickly.  Especially with leaves in it.  You want it running so the leaves 
get pulled into the skimmer as much as possible.  But, many are on timers. 
This is particularly true for the self powered automatic cleaning tools. 
Set up a timer instead of trying to remember to go turn it off and on 
yourself.

A neighbor had a silver chemical treatment system installed.  It worked very 
well.  Twas expensive.  But his pool stayed cleaner than virtually any other 
pool I've seen.  It also had a very pretty deep blue hue to the water.

Heaters can be retrofitted at any time.  I wouldn't install one yet, spend a 
year with the pool and decide.  The solar covers for a pool do very well. 
And with a winder, they are easy to handle.

Doing the re-coping is a remarkably difficult job to do.  We just went 
through this.  I'm very glad that we did farm that job out.  You get into 
interesting games with the chemistry of the plaster and the water.  Very 
easy to do wrong and poorly.

Pool chemistry is well known.  The manufacturers of the chemicals are quite 
clear and accurate on their instructions.  If you've go a pool company 
giving you distinctly different instructions,  be suspicious.  But, also 
listen to them.  You are in a very warm climate, and in warmth things  grow 
very quickly in water.  So there may well be a reason for higher than 
typical chlorine instructions.  Generically though, you should not smell 
chlorine around a pool. 

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Oct  3 05:06:25 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:06:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool
 questions...HEATING
In-Reply-To: <100320070402.26684.4703145B000267E30000683C220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <100320070402.26684.4703145B000267E30000683C220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <005d01c805ad$71851f90$548f5eb0$@mele@usermail.com>

<<5) (we're in north florida--never *cold* a few months of 'cool', maybe one
or two months that you wouldn't want to be outside wet and mostly naked)
pool heaters?  solar?  worth it?>>


My high school girlfriend's father was a general contractor...

He tied the ground-loop portion of a geothermal AC/ Heat system to a heat
exchanger (to isolate the two water loops) and the swimming pool...

Heat from house warmed the pool...
Or, if you prefer,
Cool from the pool cooled the house...

Anyway, the idea is that ambient air  as a source to dump the house heat is
much hotter than the pool water.
...more efficient way to have the heat where you want it.

Anyway, I plan to do this on my last house...expect to build in about 5
years.
You could let me know how it works for you...

Paul

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Oct  3 06:46:16 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:46:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] TRANSFER SWITCH
Message-ID: <2DF5741C39DC453499D93213F2547453@OwnerPC>

Had some questions last night about the switch

I was going to go home yesterday and get the specs/take a picture and post it
all today.  Of course I have no control over what I'm supposed to do when I
get home.. SWMBO is in control there..... maybe tonite.  This switch sells for
around 250-300 depending on vendor.

Basically  I had the switch in place next to my breaker panel, the portable
generator fed in thru 00 cable to one side of the switch, the local power
company to the other and the common back to the breaker box.

There is one 2" hole in the top where the generator conduit fed in and two 2"
holes in the bottom where
the meter fed  in and the line from the switch out  to the breaker box They
can be plugged if not necessary in your application.  It was mounted inside
the garage and never saw weather.  It's about 24" h x 18" w x 8" d .  All
aluminum housing.

I doubt that the switch has been 'thrown' more than a dozen times...  and
never when energized.

I'll take $150 and you pay the shipping...  I'll have to check on the weight
but being aluminum I doubt it weighs 25#s

I'll look at the data plate and post specs later,  Ronk doesn't show this
switch on their webpage but the do show a 200 a which is the same box with
different guts.  www.ronkelectrical.com   click on double throw switches at
the bottom of the page,,, left most picture on the page

more later

John

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  3 09:37:34 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:37:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool questions...
In-Reply-To: <100320070402.26684.4703145B000267E30000683C220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <100320070402.26684.4703145B000267E30000683C220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <045201c805d3$51a0a520$f4e1ef60$@net>

We have the salt system on ours and it's been great - The number one problem
most people have is they put to much salt in - (same with chlorine based
system) Ours is a concrete pool, no liner, so I don't know how much
difference that would make.  We run the pump about 4 hrs a day, to keep the
pool clean and generate the chlorine form the salt.  At first I used the
Hobart skimmer that sucked all the debris into the filter system, but a
couple of years ago I bought one of the turbobots that has it's own bag, and
it really is a lot easier, I just pitch it in once or twice a week
(depending on if there is stuff in the bottom) and it's done in about 3
hours, and the bag is much easier to clean than the filter on the pump, plus
it keeps all the really fine stuff from going into the DE filter.

We have a heater also, but use mainly in the winter.   

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
scott.hall at comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:03 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool questions...

but if I get this taken care of, I can move on to building the garage
mahal...

new house has pool.  we have never had pool.  I know how to swim...and
that's it.  and if it isn't known on this list, it isn't knowable.

pertinent facts: called nearly all pool companies in book, went to two local
pool-stuff stores.  the contractors are scary--one seemed drunk on phone and
cursed me out for calling (the number in the yellow pages, at 2 p.m.)  in
retrospect, he wasn't far from the mean.  these people are like roofing
contractors after a bender.  what gives?  the stores only want me to buy
what they have in stock, all else is total crap.

so...:

1) the in-pool light is out (in-ground, vinyl liner).  seems to have a
screwed-in glass cover over the bulb?  are these all the same, and if so
anybody know how to change it?  I assume it'd be stupid to pull the cover
off an electric bulb base while submerged to my neck in water.  there must
be a trick, and I doubt I'm intended to drain the pool, no?

2) the pump runs continuously.  seems expensive.  does it need to, or can I
shut it off for hours/days at a time?

3) if not, can/should I buy a setup that doesn't require continuous pumping?
perhaps a variable-speed pump?

4) wife is sensitive to chlorine.  salt system--worth it?  quoted $1500 to
retrofit.  cheap if it delivers what he promised.

5) (we're in north florida--never *cold* a few months of 'cool', maybe one
or two months that you wouldn't want to be outside wet and mostly naked)
pool heaters?  solar?  worth it?

6) there are leaves in it.  I assume I can buy a pool-roomba-type thing.  if
I can, which?  or save the money and do it by hand?  if no robot, how do you
get the crud off the bottom of the pool?  are there two separate
systems--one floating and one mucking around on the floor?

7) friend says to use about 1/4 to 1/3 the recommended chlorine (because the
guy doing the recommending is the guy selling the chlorine).  after the hard
sell(s) I got, I'd be inclined to believe it.  sound reasonable?

8) (and the biggie).  our friends have a brick-coped vinyl pool.  I'd like
to do this to mine.  I'm at least as capable as the drunk guy.  I assume
there is cutting into the pool deck, etc., and I'm fine with this (it'll be
after the garage anyway).  what I'd really like is a diy book on building an
in-ground pool, installing liners, etc.  maybe shotcreting it when it's time
to r&r the liner if I can rent the equipment.  I mean, in essence, this is a
large garbage-bag-lined hole filled with water.  how (conceptually) hard can
it be, really?

thanks guys.  wife and kid love pool.  I see large pit which I am supposed
to fill with money.  the insurance premium spike alone...
_______________________________________________
rs1121 at earthlink.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 10:04:24 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:04:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
Message-ID: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>

*Does anyone ELSE suspect Eastwood buys their $29.99 #43459 7 piece nylon
trim removal set from Harbor Freight (95532 IVGA) for $4.99?*

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Oct  3 10:26:03 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:26:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071003162604.YZPA21078.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>

> *Does anyone ELSE suspect Eastwood buys their $29.99 #43459 7 
> piece nylon trim removal set from Harbor Freight (95532 IVGA) 
> for $4.99?* 

Nah ... They get them the same place HF does, from a little shop in Shanghai
where political prisoners beat them out of tin cans and sell them for 98
cents.

Randall - only half kidding

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 11:05:09 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:05:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <20071003162604.YZPA21078.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071003162604.YZPA21078.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710031005m561cb60bif6e30dcd3abfbcd4@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/07, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> > *Does anyone ELSE suspect Eastwood buys their $29.99 #43459 7
> > piece nylon trim removal set from Harbor Freight (95532 IVGA)
> > for $4.99?*
>
> Nah ... They get them the same place HF does, from a little shop in Shanghai
> where political prisoners beat them out of tin cans and sell them for 98
> cents.
>
> Randall - only half kidding

I don't know about these parts in particular, but there are all sorts
of things that are like this.  One set of boxes out the door gets a
fancy name on them, the next doesn't have any name at all.  The only
difference is markup.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Wed Oct  3 11:14:47 2007
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (Roland Wilhelmy)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:14:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710031005m561cb60bif6e30dcd3abfbcd4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071003162604.YZPA21078.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
	<2400a5d40710031005m561cb60bif6e30dcd3abfbcd4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eej7g3dp2mgcik9ju1595ha9bjqak4h5ob@4ax.com>

and some times the parts that don't pass spec go "elsewhere".

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:05:09 -0400, you wrote:

::On 10/3/07, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
::> > *Does anyone ELSE suspect Eastwood buys their $29.99 #43459 7
::> > piece nylon trim removal set from Harbor Freight (95532 IVGA)
::> > for $4.99?*

::I don't know about these parts in particular, but there are all sorts
::of things that are like this.  One set of boxes out the door gets a
::fancy name on them, the next doesn't have any name at all.  The only
::difference is markup.

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Oct  3 11:49:29 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:49:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0JPC00F6NK6OJDU0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Why don't you post that question to Eastwood's 
forum:  http://forum.eastwoodco.com/.  See what kind of response you get.

-Steve

At 12:04 PM 10/3/2007, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
>*Does anyone ELSE suspect Eastwood buys their $29.99 #43459 7 piece nylon
>trim removal set from Harbor Freight (95532 IVGA) for $4.99?*

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Oct  3 13:38:33 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <eej7g3dp2mgcik9ju1595ha9bjqak4h5ob@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <512146.27275.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Roland Wilhelmy <rwil at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> and some times the parts that don't pass spec go
> "elsewhere".

That would be Homier  :-)

Doug

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Wed Oct  3 18:34:51 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:34:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] manual transfer switch information
Message-ID: <002001c8061e$60eab840$6401a8c0@niolon>

Ok guys... SWMBO has few chores this p.m. so I got the pics/data

it IS the same switch that is on the ronk electrical site
http://www.ronkelectrical.com/pages/meterrite.html
the switch on the left of the page

rated at 200 amps single phase (instead of 100)

I've uploaded some pictures on my site if you want to look
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/transferswitch1.jpg
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/transferswitch2.jpg
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/transferswitch3.jpg
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/transferswitch5.jpg
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/transferswitch6.jpg

again the price is $150 and YOU pay the shipping... I'd estimate the weight 
at 25#
questions ???? email me at jniolon at bham.rr.com

later
John


Frame every so-called disaster with these words: "In five years... will this 
matter?" 

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Oct  3 20:15:46 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 02:15:46 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool questions...
Message-ID: <100420070215.25282.47044CD1000ED4A2000062C2220073436404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> > 1) the in-pool light is out (in-ground, vinyl liner).  seems 
> > to have a screwed-in glass cover over the bulb?  are these 
> > all the same, and if so anybody know how to change it?  I 
> > assume it'd be stupid to pull the cover off an electric bulb 
> > base while submerged to my neck in water.  there must be a 
> > trick, and I doubt I'm intended to drain the pool, no?
> 
> Likely not all the same; but on mine you have to drain the pool.

heh.  that light fixture is apparently *supposed* to be waterproof.  it had a big thick rubber gasket and the glass was held to the fixture with about a dozen clamps.  it was also flooded.

the whole fixture pulled right out of the side of the pool wall--I assume whatever the single screw that threaded into the wall was actually threaded into has gone away.  the pot-metal trim around the fixture has also rotted.  this is probably not a good sign of things to come.

anyhow, there was just enough cord to get it onto the pool deck.  I didn't electrocute myself, though it got too dark to see exactly what was going on in the fixture itself.  the bulb seems to be a regular flood bulb.  guess we'll see tomorrow.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Oct  4 07:26:21 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 06:26:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
Message-ID: <217963.20579.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The people who brought you the Roomba have been busy
at work:

  http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=272

Here is another now product that is interesting:

  http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=354

Doug

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Oct  4 07:56:59 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:56:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
Message-ID: <OFE5338C5E.4C1ADEF8-ON8525736A.004CA0F9-8525736A.004CA0FC@mail.megageek.com>

I always wonder with the Rumba (and now dirt dog), where does it hold the
dirt?  Am I to believe that that little robot can hold the same dirt that
my vacuum cleaner can?  (and I fill a vaccuum cleaner often.)  8>)

Again, my answer is "Jane"  Live in housekeeper!  8>)



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

-----shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net wrote: -----


To: Shop-Talk List <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
From: Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com>
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net
Date: 10/04/2007 09:26
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!

The people who brought you the Roomba have been busy
at work:

 http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=272

Here is another now product that is interesting:

 http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=354

Doug

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Oct  4 09:43:38 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:43:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
Message-ID: <0JPE004IC8ZP9F00@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

We have one of the earlier models, and it's more of a robot 
dustbuster than a robot vacuum.  That's not necessarily so bad, as 
long as you have reasonable expectations.  I don't know about the 
newer ones, though.  As for the shop, the usual review is "it was 
great, right up until I ran it over!"

-Steve

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Oct  4 12:11:22 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 18:11:22 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
Message-ID: <100420071811.10563.47052CCA000302600000294322070016419D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com>
> The people who brought you the Roomba have been busy
> at work:
> 
>   http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=272

Make sure to look for it when you go to drive your car out of the shop!

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From drew at pixar.com  Thu Oct  4 12:13:58 2007
From: drew at pixar.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:13:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
In-Reply-To: <217963.20579.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <217963.20579.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47052D66.8020308@pixar.com>

I wonder how good it is at eating nice stringy 304
stainless steel chips?

Doug Braun wrote:
> The people who brought you the Roomba have been busy
> at work:
> 
>   http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=272
> 
> Here is another now product that is interesting:
> 
>   http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=354
> 
> Doug

> 

-- 
Drew Rogge
drew at pixar.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Oct  4 13:38:26 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:38:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
In-Reply-To: <217963.20579.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071004153826.00ab5340@pop.east.cox.net>

At 06:26 AM 10/4/2007 -0700, Doug Braun wrote:

>The people who brought you the Roomba have been busy
>at work:
>
>  http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=272
>
>Here is another now product that is interesting:
>
>  http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=354

Doug,

Way cool!!!  I really like the gutter cleaner!

John

>_______________________________________________
>jblair1948 at cox.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From gwishon at nd.edu  Thu Oct  4 13:45:00 2007
From: gwishon at nd.edu (Gordon Wishon)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:45:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window regulator
Message-ID: <01a001c806bf$0f7d9df0$2e78d9d0$@edu>

I'm going to have to replace a window regulator/motor on my 1997 Acura CL
(after 158,000 miles it finally gave out).  In shopping around the web, I'm
finding wide variance in prices, ranging from $60-$160 for the same part.
Some places are selling 'oem replacements' at significantly less than the
part listed on the Acura online store.  

 

What should I watch out for when buying a replacement regulator/motor?

 

TIA,

 

Gordon

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Thu Oct  4 16:00:42 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 18:00:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Window regulator
In-Reply-To: <01a001c806bf$0f7d9df0$2e78d9d0$@edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071004180042.00ab5340@pop.east.cox.net>

At 03:45 PM 10/4/2007 -0400, Gordon Wishon wrote:
>I'm going to have to replace a window regulator/motor on my 1997 Acura CL
>(after 158,000 miles it finally gave out).  In shopping around the web, I'm
>finding wide variance in prices, ranging from $60-$160 for the same part.
>Some places are selling 'oem replacements' at significantly less than the
>part listed on the Acura online store.  
>
> 
>
>What should I watch out for when buying a replacement regulator/motor?

Gordon,

For OEM Honda parts check out http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/.  I've 
used them quite a bit.  Good discount, Honda parts.

You really need to find out if it is the regulator, motor or switch.  Do you 
hear the you motor try and turn when you press the switch?

What are your symptoms?  The window just doesn't go up and down?  Doesn't
move at all?  If you have a helper try and lift or push it down does it
go?

I haven't done a Honda regulator, but I have done several on several 
different Chryslers and Fords.  Depending on the year, and make they can 
differ quite a bit.  I'm assuming that you have the metal bar and wire
regulator?

If so, you need to check to see if the regulator wire(s) broke, or did one
of the pullies fail?  If the regulator has failed, usually the window will
want to fall down and stay down.

On the Ford I've worked on, you could help the window up and down. 

Most dealers will replace the entire motor/regulator assembly at about $450
for parts and another $150+ for labor.

Go ahead and pull the regulator and motor assembly from the door.  Then if
you don't see anything wrong with the regulator, VERY, VERY carefully 
remove the motor from the regulator.  If the cable unspools your in for a
lot of fun.

Now remove the top cover and inner plate of the motor wheel housing.  Do you 
see something like hard chunks of grease?  On the Ford, these were nylon
balls - 3 of them.  They had failed and discinegrated.

Now check the your favorite auto parts store.  They may have a "rebuild kit"
which consists of these 3 balls, and possibly a new drive gear.  Expect to
pay about $50 for the balls and gear.  See if you can't find just the balls.
They typicaly run about $8 in the HELP section.  Replace the balls, and you
should be good to go.

I haven't had any problems with the aftermarket regulators.  They will run
from $30 to about $70.  The motors will run from $100 up.  So if you get the
complete assembly $160 isn't bad.  

It's your call of replacing the entire assembly (reg. & motor) or just what
is broken.


John



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Oct  4 18:59:31 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 17:59:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710031005m561cb60bif6e30dcd3abfbcd4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com><20071003162604.YZPA21078.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>
	<2400a5d40710031005m561cb60bif6e30dcd3abfbcd4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012f01c806ea$fddf6890$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

No questions that it's a common practice.

I used to sell to the industrial side of the food industry and often the box
coming out of the plant was the only difference between the "kissy-sexy"
expensive brand and the store brand.  I signed many confidentiality
agreements to get into those plants too.  They really don't want you to
know.

Jack 


On 10/3/07, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> > *Does anyone ELSE suspect Eastwood buys their $29.99 #43459 7 piece 
> > nylon trim removal set from Harbor Freight (95532 IVGA) for $4.99?*

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Oct  4 19:10:29 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:10:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
In-Reply-To: <OFE5338C5E.4C1ADEF8-ON8525736A.004CA0F9-8525736A.004CA0FC@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFE5338C5E.4C1ADEF8-ON8525736A.004CA0F9-8525736A.004CA0FC@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <013001c806ec$85c5f250$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

I don't know about their other products, but having a Roomba run around your
home a few days a week keeps it clean.  

No, it can't hold the volume of dirt that your big vacuum can.  The dust bin
has to be cleaned about every 3-5 running hours.  FYI - We have no animals
in the house, but do have two young teen kids creating a small hurricane
worth of mess.  

No it's not as powerful as our canister vacuum, but it's not far behind it
and all I had to do is program it to go clean twice a week and empty the bin
every week or two.  It does the rest.  It cleans on schedule and gets back
onto it's charger so it's always charged and ready to go.  It's chock full
of safeties to keep it from getting in trouble due to stairs, getting stuck
under something, inhaling rug tassels, etc.

This licensed PE (Professional Enginerd) strongly endorse the Roomba.  Just
be forewarned, when you buy one, you will spend hours during the first few
cycles, watching that little guy do his job.  <grin>

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
eric at megageek.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:57 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!

I always wonder with the Rumba (and now dirt dog), where does it hold the
dirt?  Am I to believe that that little robot can hold the same dirt that my
vacuum cleaner can?  (and I fill a vaccuum cleaner often.)  8>)

Again, my answer is "Jane"  Live in housekeeper!  8>)



Moose

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Oct  4 19:19:08 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:19:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Marvin replacement sashes?
Message-ID: <EA78B32F-F51A-40C4-B3F4-A518D181DC46@groupwbench.org>

Marvin makes these to replace original double hung sashes. Nice in  
that you don't have to remove the existing trim and you get to keep  
the same glass area unlike replacement windows. Has anyone tried  
them? I'd like to know how well they fit before I drop the $ on them.

thanks,
jim

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Oct  4 19:46:15 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
In-Reply-To: <013001c806ec$85c5f250$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <904630.69744.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here is another new product from iRobot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bND35w8joLU


--- Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:

> I don't know about their other products, but having
> a Roomba run around your
> home a few days a week keeps it clean.  

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Thu Oct  4 23:24:22 2007
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:24:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
In-Reply-To: <013001c806ec$85c5f250$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
References: <OFE5338C5E.4C1ADEF8-ON8525736A.004CA0F9-8525736A.004CA0FC@mail.megageek.com>
	<013001c806ec$85c5f250$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <441250190710042224g3667bd71mbfc60ee0c8296f40@mail.gmail.com>

I second that!  I have a Roomba and it works great on hard wood floor.
Picks up a bunch of dirt and dog hair.  We run it 3 or 4 times a week and it
keeps the place neat looking.  It is not a substitute for a regular vacuum
but it is a great addition.  I also have a scooba and I want a Dirt Dawg for
the garage.

On 10/4/07, Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:
>
> I don't know about their other products, but having a Roomba run around
> your
> home a few days a week keeps it clean.
>
> No, it can't hold the volume of dirt that your big vacuum can.  The dust
> be
> has to be cleaned about every 3-5 running hours.  FYI - We have no animals
> in the house, but do have two young teen kids creating a small hurricane
> worth of mess.
>
> No it's not as powerful as our canister vacuum, but it's not far behind it
> and all I had to do is program it to go clean twice a week and empty the
> bin
> every week or two.  It does the rest.  It cleans on schedule and gets back
> onto it's charger so it's always charged and ready to go.  It's chock full
> of safeties to keep it from getting in trouble due to stairs, getting
> stuck
> under something, inhaling rug tassels, etc.
>
> This licensed PE (Professional Enginerd) strongly endorse the
> Roomba.  Just
> be forewarned, when you buy one, you will spend hours during the first few
> cycles, watching that little guy do his job.  <grin>
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> eric at megageek.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:57 AM
> To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Exciting hi-tech home shop accecssory!
>
> I always wonder with the Rumba (and now dirt dog), where does it hold the
> dirt?  Am I to believe that that little robot can hold the same dirt that
> my
> vacuum cleaner can?  (and I fill a vaccuum cleaner often.)  8>)
>
> Again, my answer is "Jane"  Live in housekeeper!  8>)
>
>
>
> Moose
> _______________________________________________
> wmgilroy at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Wed Oct  3 18:48:30 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:48:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401c80620$4a6df760$b00708d8@CPQ12949640186>

Eastwood, Griots, Snap On, etc all sell cheap junk for a premium simply 
because they can.  If you ever happen to be at a show where they are all 
there, right beside Kreemo and the like, you'll be astonished at how certain 
items look absolutely identical, but carry tremendous price tag differences.

Not saying everything Eastwood or Snap On sells is rebadged cheap junk.  Not 
by a long shot. Much of what they carry is very good and often times unique. 
But by no means is all of it that way. 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Oct  5 08:43:36 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 10:43:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <002401c80620$4a6df760$b00708d8@CPQ12949640186>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c80620$4a6df760$b00708d8@CPQ12949640186>
Message-ID: <47064D98.2020409@xxiii.com>

Hey Nolan,  might want to check the clock/calendar on your PC.  Looks 
like they might be off a couple days.

Nolan wrote:
> Not saying everything Eastwood or Snap On sells is rebadged cheap junk.  Not 
> by a long shot. Much of what they carry is very good and often times unique. 
> But by no means is all of it that way. 

I agree, a lot of the stuff truly is identical.  However, you have to 
remember how Chinese product cloning works:  they apparently get 
requests to "build a copy of this" and are given some existing product, 
which they half-ass reverse engineer and churn out a superficially 
similar looking product, that is not identical and usually lower quality.

Guess I'm saying, you need to go beyond exterior appearance to determine 
if things are really identical.

   -Wayne

From mlye at risd.edu  Fri Oct  5 09:20:36 2007
From: mlye at risd.edu (Michael Lye)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:20:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <47064D98.2020409@xxiii.com>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c80620$4a6df760$b00708d8@CPQ12949640186>
	<47064D98.2020409@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <B64165B2-3554-4418-9F36-31112922E6F5@risd.edu>

Note that it's not just with knock-offs that this happens. Home  
despot will often ask/force their vendors to take an existing product  
and make it cheaper to meet a price point without changing the  
external appearance. Makes it seem like you're getting the same  
product cheaper at HD but in fact it may not be the same product  
inside. The manufacturer that I've spoken to isn't happy about it but  
doesn't have much choice in the matter or the don't get on the  
shelves at the HD.

Michael



On Oct 5, 2007, at 10:43 AM, Wayne wrote:

> I agree, a lot of the stuff truly is identical.  However, you have to
> remember how Chinese product cloning works:  they apparently get
> requests to "build a copy of this" and are given some existing  
> product,
> which they half-ass reverse engineer and churn out a superficially
> similar looking product, that is not identical and usually lower  
> quality.
>
> Guess I'm saying, you need to go beyond exterior appearance to  
> determine
> if things are really identical.
>
>    -Wayne

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Oct  5 09:46:04 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:46:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <B64165B2-3554-4418-9F36-31112922E6F5@risd.edu>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com><002401c80620$4a6df760$b00708d8@CPQ12949640186><47064D98.2020409@xxiii.com>
	<B64165B2-3554-4418-9F36-31112922E6F5@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <75067BCBF25643E0967F6DB50359CAFA@OwnerPC>

. Home  despot will often ask/force their vendors to take an existing 
product
 and make it cheaper to meet a price point without changing the  external 
appearance.
Makes it seem like you're getting the same  product cheaper at HD but in 
fact it may
not be the same product  inside.

Case in point... a few months back H.D. advertised a Dewalt pressure 
washer...Honda engine and Cat brand triplex pump
3100 psi 2.8 gallons about 150 bucks off reg price.

I had been looking at this same machine the week before but the price was a 
little high.

When they went on sale I went down to get one.  I drug one box off the 
pallet and looked inside...
it was not a Cat brand pump but a cheaper chinese made axial pump.  I kept 
pulling boxes down
and finally found one (probably old stock) that did have the Cat triplex 
pump.
The ad showed the triplex... but the sales chimp said "this is what we got" 
Buyer beware.

john

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 09:56:05 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:56:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <B64165B2-3554-4418-9F36-31112922E6F5@risd.edu>
References: <ea2385360710030904i3ca49cd7xa14085e39fbeaa0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c80620$4a6df760$b00708d8@CPQ12949640186>
	<47064D98.2020409@xxiii.com>
	<B64165B2-3554-4418-9F36-31112922E6F5@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710050856p532b6958j3caeb2477ca2881e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, Michael Lye <mlye at risd.edu> wrote:
> Note that it's not just with knock-offs that this happens. Home
> despot will often ask/force their vendors to take an existing product
> and make it cheaper to meet a price point without changing the
> external appearance. Makes it seem like you're getting the same
> product cheaper at HD but in fact it may not be the same product
> inside. The manufacturer that I've spoken to isn't happy about it but
> doesn't have much choice in the matter or the don't get on the
> shelves at the HD.

This is pretty common among all the big-box places, not just
home-improvement type places.  Sometimes it's the same product, but
with a new model number and packaging, to make it harder to say "It's
cheaper next door!" and take advantage of price matching.  Sometimes
it's made to different specs.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Fri Oct  5 09:59:30 2007
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:59:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <B64165B2-3554-4418-9F36-31112922E6F5@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>

On Friday, October 05, 2007, at 08:21, Michael Lye wrote:

> Note that it's not just with knock-offs that this happens. Home  
> despot will often ask/force their vendors to take an existing 
> product  and make it cheaper to meet a price point

This came up when I was bs'ing with the plumbers while they put in a new
drain for me a while back. They were grousing that HD was selling toilets
for less than they paid their wholesaler. Said they'd looked at the HD
merchandise and concluded they were seconds.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Fri Oct  5 11:30:45 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:30:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
References: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Bob Kegel wrote:
> This came up when I was bs'ing with the plumbers while they put in a new
> drain for me a while back. They were grousing that HD was selling toilets
> for less than they paid their wholesaler. Said they'd looked at the HD
> merchandise and concluded they were seconds.

    Hypothetical question... if HD _were_ selling the same toilets for less 
than their wholesaler, why would that be bad for the plumbers?   Unlike 
the wholesaler, HD will sell to anyone, right?  And they are probably 
more-conveniently located, too.

    Just wondering.

--
  David Hillman

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Fri Oct  5 11:42:31 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:42:31 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] completely unrelated swimming pool
 questions...HEATING
Message-ID: <100520071742.3405.47067787000E7A5C00000D4D220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I forgot to ask--the light has a coil of wire in it about 6 inches long.  either end attaches to the housing near the bulb socket.  it's coiled.  anybody know what that is?  almost looks like it might be a heating coil, but why?  the bulb screws in, so it's not to hold in the bolb...

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Fri Oct  5 11:47:55 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:47:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
References: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
	<20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <000301c80777$dc4cea30$6501a8c0@proteus457>

According to Bob's description, they're not the same toilets.  "Seconds" are
the factory rejects.  Usually have some small flaw in them.  I assume that
what the wholesalers are selling the plumbers are "firsts" -- no flaws.

Some one correct me if I've got this wrong.

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop David Hillman
> 
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Bob Kegel wrote:
> > This came up when I was bs'ing with the plumbers while they put in a new
> > drain for me a while back. They were grousing that HD was selling
> toilets
> > for less than they paid their wholesaler. Said they'd looked at the HD
> > merchandise and concluded they were seconds.
> 
>     Hypothetical question... if HD _were_ selling the same toilets for
> less
> than their wholesaler, why would that be bad for the plumbers?   Unlike
> the wholesaler, HD will sell to anyone, right?  And they are probably
> more-conveniently located, too.
> 
>     Just wondering.
> 
> --
>   David Hillman

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Oct  5 11:50:39 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:50:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
References: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
	<20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <004301c80778$3e031b00$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

>     Hypothetical question... if HD _were_ selling the same 
> toilets for less 
> than their wholesaler, why would that be bad for the 
> plumbers?

Well, for the sake of argument, let's suppose those really are 'seconds'
that HD is selling, meaning there is some visible defect ...

Or worse yet, what happens if the toilet does fail ?  HD sure isn't going to
take any liability beyond the price of the toilet, which is likely to be the
least expensive part of fixing the problem.

Just two of the (valid) reasons that professionals frequently pay more
"wholesale" than we can buy similar items for ourselves. 

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 11:53:58 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:53:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
References: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
	<20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710051053t9ec4ddcsda9a6b5e063ed4d9@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Bob Kegel wrote:

>     Hypothetical question... if HD _were_ selling the same toilets for less
> than their wholesaler, why would that be bad for the plumbers?   Unlike
> the wholesaler, HD will sell to anyone, right?  And they are probably
> more-conveniently located, too.
>

A whole bunch of reasons.  The credit terms offered by home depot may
not be as favorable as a specialty supplier.  The people at HD have no
clue about anything they sell, while the specialty supplier knows
their products.  There's no guarantee that HD will buy more of the
product when they sell out.  The home depot doesn't have any interest
in professional markets (they've sold off their wholesale building
materials division).  It's a pain to shop at the home depot.  It took
me ten minutes to buy a couple boxes of light bulbs the last time I
was there.  The local supplier will get you out hte door faster.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Oct  5 12:08:31 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:08:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
References: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
	<20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710051407170.1459@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, David Hillman wrote:
>    Hypothetical question... if HD _were_ selling the same toilets for 
> less than their wholesaler, why would that be bad for the plumbers? 
> Unlike the wholesaler, HD will sell to anyone, right?  And they are 
> probably more-conveniently located, too.
>
>    Just wondering.

I dunno if plumbers do this, but in terms of car repair places, they bitch 
because then they can't buy the part at a lower price and mark it up to 
retail on the customer's bill.

(which I don't particularly have a problem with, btw).

Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Fri Oct  5 13:00:01 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:00:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710051053t9ec4ddcsda9a6b5e063ed4d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> 
	<20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
	<2400a5d40710051053t9ec4ddcsda9a6b5e063ed4d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071005145752.K82869@itonami.pair.com>

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, David Scheidt wrote:
> A whole bunch of reasons.  The credit terms offered by home depot may
> not be as favorable as a specialty supplier.  The people at HD have no
> clue about anything they sell, while the specialty supplier knows
> their products.  There's no guarantee that HD will buy more of the
> product when they sell out.  The home depot doesn't have any interest
> in professional markets (they've sold off their wholesale building
> materials division).  It's a pain to shop at the home depot.  It took
> me ten minutes to buy a couple boxes of light bulbs the last time I
> was there.  The local supplier will get you out hte door faster.

    Oh, so in other words, they get better service at the wholesaler, but 
don't want to pay for it?

    Gotcha.

--
  David Hillman

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Oct  5 14:01:10 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 16:01:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710051407170.1459@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <000801c80768$bae8eec0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
	<20071005124051.R82869@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710051407170.1459@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <47069806.10600@xxiii.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
> I dunno if plumbers do this, but in terms of car repair places, they bitch 
> because then they can't buy the part at a lower price and mark it up to 
> retail on the customer's bill.
> (which I don't particularly have a problem with, btw).

Charging a mark up on parts is acceptable, esp if the installer bears 
the cost of keeping inventory.

What really ticks me off, though, is parts wholesalers that absolutely 
refuse to give any similar breaks to good customers that aren't "pros".

I used to be a "good [retail] customer" at a small independent foreign 
car parts store, where a substantial portion if not majority of business 
was pro' service shops.  Those guys called up Mike, had him look up the 
parts, deliver them in the store truck, then presumably were mailed a 
net-30 invoice for a wholesale discount price.

I walk in the store WITH part numbers, that I KNOW he has on the shelf 
(ie: costing him money by the minute).  Offer to pay cash, and ask if he 
can cut me a small discount for a good customer on this large purchase. 
  No Can Do.  F.U. Mike.  Hope I paid with a credit card.

Another occasion, same store, working on my car @ home during the day 
with no backup vehicle.  I'm missing a part.  Call up Mike, and ask if 
he can deliver one to me for full retail price and payment in cash.  No 
Can Do.  He knows me, and the neighborhood;  hell, he's 3 miles down the 
road.  His trucks run around here all day.  Some lame ass excuse about 
the driver being "scared" to deliver here.  It's a clean cut middle 
class neighborhood in Huber Heights, OH (hi Mike [insert ascii middle 
finger here ^^!^^]), not the fucking "hood".

I order most parts online these days.  I don't wanna hear the "mom & 
pop" stores bitching about loss of business unless they're treating 
customers decently.

<End Rant>

   -Wayne

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Oct  5 14:39:17 2007
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 16:39:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] tools-wholesale-retail
Message-ID: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

A few thoughts on this subject, lets compare "Wally'S Plumbing and Tools
located in "Muscle Flats" Alabama and Home Depot located "nationwide, Wally is
in need of this new super, duper ratchet new on the market, so he places a
extra large order for his selling area, the same tool is ordered by the Home
Depot  National Office, one orders 12 and the other orders 40,000 of the same
exact wrench, whom do think gets the better price and can sell for less, H.D.
of course, price is determined by needs/sales/volume, "NO" national chain is
going to risk a injury to a customer by buying "seconds" or second class mdse
and trying to retail it as first line, the more you can make your order the
cheaper your manufacturer can make it. Tools are made to mostly do one job,
now if you are a front line mechanic, doing this as your only source of
income, you certainly have a need for the more expensive tool than me "John
Doe" using this tool maybe once a month in my hobby, are there cheap tools in
the market place, "YES" and they fit a need and have a place for them and not
by the line mechanic. Price does not have anything to do with "QUALITY", price
is more for a need, inexpensive tools will be called "JUNK" by line mechanic's
as they should be, but , not by the hobbiest working maybe 2 hours a week.
"WAL-MART" along with many other chains put the small so-called "wholesalers"
out of business a long time ago with volumn buying and massive retailing and
not as sellers of "seconds mdse", they have very strict buying codes and abide
by the honesty the public has placed upon them and that is called "Success"
"FT"

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 14:42:33 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 16:42:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] tools-wholesale-retail
In-Reply-To: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710051342y240ba508q6de6cfc06718ca06@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, FRED E THOMAS <frede.thomas2 at verizon.net> wrote:
> A few thoughts on this subject, lets compare "Wally'S Plumbing and Tools
> located in "Muscle Flats" Alabama and Home Depot located "nationwide, Wally is
> in need of this new super, duper ratchet new on the market, so he places a
> extra large order for his selling area, the same tool is ordered by the Home
> Depot  National Office, one orders 12 and the other orders 40,000 of the same
> exact wrench, whom do think gets the better price and can sell for less, H.D.
> of course, price is determined by needs/sales/volume, "NO" national chain is
> going to risk a injury to a customer by buying "seconds" or second class mdse
> and trying to retail it as first line.

Sorry Fred, but you're stuck in some other time.  Quality is not a
concern of most major retailers.  They're much more concerned with
making money.  If they decide that they can do that by selling crap,
and charging non-crap prices for it, that's what they do.

>


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Oct  5 15:08:40 2007
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:08:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] tools-wholesale-retail
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<2400a5d40710051342y240ba508q6de6cfc06718ca06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c80793$e996cbe0$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

> Sorry Fred, but you're stuck in some other time.  Quality is not a
> concern of most major retailers.  They're much more concerned with
> making money.  If they decide that they can do that by selling crap,
> and charging non-crap prices for it, that's what they do.
>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.c
=========================================================================================================
Repeat business is the most important bussiness and any business will keep a 
inventory of all "returns" and act accordingly on this product, more so by 
national chains that by local oulets, spent 18 years with "Sears" and the 
first 15 in the automotive section.  "FT" 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Oct  5 16:09:46 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:09:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality parts
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710051342y240ba508q6de6cfc06718ca06@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071005180946.00e8b3d8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 04:42 PM 10/5/2007 -0400, David Scheidt wrote:

>Quality is not a concern of most major retailers.  They're much more 
>concerned with making money.  If they decide that they can do that by 
>selling crap, and charging non-crap prices for it, that's what they do.

On the same subject, has anyone noticed the quality of aftermarket auto
parts.  Do you think it's junk?  Should you go to the discount dealers for
the OEM parts.

I bought an 84 Honda Accord new.  It took almost 20 years and over 120,000
for things to fail, like the 1/2 shafts and alternator.  I bought, what I
thought was decient, parts from the aftermarket box store suppliers, AutoZone,
Advanced, etc.

The replacement 1/2 shafts only lasted about 2 years as did the alternator.
In the last 4 to 5 years, I've replaced the 1/2 shafts twice, and the 
alternator twice.

I'm beginning to there that there really is something to the OEM parts!
But sometimes I just can't accept the price, like $380 for a Honda alternator.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From mistertwo at sbcglobal.net  Fri Oct  5 16:13:42 2007
From: mistertwo at sbcglobal.net (Rand E)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality parts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071005180946.00e8b3d8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <262436.50121.qm@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Become friends with the part guys at your local
dealersip.  I buy most of my parts at the dealer.  So
many that he gives me a very nice discount.  Just this
week I bought an MR2 clutch slave cylinder at the
dealer for less than the local O'Reillys wanted to
charge me.  Most times, depending on the parts, they
do end up costing a little more but they last much
longer and I don't have to worry about the quality. 

Randy


--- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> At 04:42 PM 10/5/2007 -0400, David Scheidt wrote:
> 
> >Quality is not a concern of most major retailers. 
> They're much more 
> >concerned with making money.  If they decide that
> they can do that by 
> >selling crap, and charging non-crap prices for it,
> that's what they do.
> 
> On the same subject, has anyone noticed the quality
> of aftermarket auto
> parts.  Do you think it's junk?  Should you go to
> the discount dealers for
> the OEM parts.
> 
> I bought an 84 Honda Accord new.  It took almost 20
> years and over 120,000
> for things to fail, like the 1/2 shafts and
> alternator.  I bought, what I
> thought was decient, parts from the aftermarket box
> store suppliers, AutoZone,
> Advanced, etc.
> 
> The replacement 1/2 shafts only lasted about 2 years
> as did the alternator.
> In the last 4 to 5 years, I've replaced the 1/2
> shafts twice, and the 
> alternator twice.
> 
> I'm beginning to there that there really is
> something to the OEM parts!
> But sometimes I just can't accept the price, like
> $380 for a Honda alternator.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va             
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
> 
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4
> Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71
> Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
> 
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
> 
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
> _______________________________________________
> mistertwo at sbcglobal.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct  5 20:22:11 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 19:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality parts
In-Reply-To: <262436.50121.qm@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <610746.48016.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If you want OEM parts, but your local dealership is
not to your liking, look for those dealerships that
sell parts over the internet.

A while ago I needed rear shocks for a '98 Subaru. 
The local dealer told me they were $120.  I called
Liberty 
Subaru in Paramus, NJ (www.libertysubaru.com), and
they told me that the shocks listed for $105, but they
could sell them to me for $85 plus UPS shipping. 
Sounded good to me!

For my Prius, Metro Toyota in Cleveland sold me nice
OEM rubber floor mats a lot cheaper than the local
dealer would.

Doug

--- Rand E <mistertwo at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Become friends with the part guys at your local
> dealersip.  I buy most of my parts at the dealer. 
> So
> many that he gives me a very nice discount.  Just
> this
> week I bought an MR2 clutch slave cylinder at the
> dealer for less than the local O'Reillys wanted to
> charge me.  Most times, depending on the parts, they
> do end up costing a little more but they last much
> longer and I don't have to worry about the quality. 
> 
> Randy

From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Oct  5 20:38:19 2007
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J. Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 20:38:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] tools-wholesale-retail
In-Reply-To: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <4706F51B.9060009@bradakis.com>

> they have very strict buying codes and abide
>by the honesty the public has placed upon them and that is called "Success"
>  
>

Indeed!  You won't catch places like WalMart selling lead tainted toys from
China or some such crap!

mjb.

From shiples at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 01:13:52 2007
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 00:13:52 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <4706F51B.9060009@bradakis.com>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>

Although I've never had a break-in, I recently have been affected by the 
price of copper.  Somebody stole my
downspouts!  They didn't get them all, I pulled the rest down and tucked 
them away.  In the interim, I'll be
replacing them with galvanized, but I'd like to to put the copper back up.

I've always wanted to have the kind of security system that was defensive, 
most seem to announce that a
terrorist has broken the perimeter, but don't offer any consequences.  I'd 
always thought that electric shock
would be a good way to reward inappropriate behavior.

AC, DC, or Static?

I understand that cattle can be controlled by an electric fence.  Would it 
be possible to electrify a downspout?
Could I choose between mild discomfort and heart stopping?

Steve Shipley

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 06:13:13 2007
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 07:13:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> 
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W87620D51FAD7C41A15AC1E1AA0@phx.gbl>

While what you are suggesting is understandable and intriguing, Im not sure
it is legal.
If the system is unattended, an innocent person or animal might get hurt.
Years ago I hear of a man that rigged a shotgun up to the door of a shed.
While this is most likely an urban legend, as the story goes it did not go
well for the owner when an intruder was shot as he opened the door.

Remember Im not in law enforcement or the legal profession in any way and do
not even play one on TV.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA'63 TR3B TCF587LThat
ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!See it moves!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Oct  6 07:19:54 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:19:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com>

Steve Shipley wrote:
> I've always wanted to have the kind of security system that was defensive, 
> most seem to announce that a
> terrorist has broken the perimeter, but don't offer any consequences.  I'd 
> always thought that electric shock
> would be a good way to reward inappropriate behavior.
> AC, DC, or Static?

Sounds tempting, but it's well established law and legal precedent that 
a lethal "booby trap" makes its installer guilty of homocide.  EVEN IF 
it's INSIDE his home or business, and the victim B&E'ed to get in.

   -Wayne

From lane495 at nctc.com  Sat Oct  6 07:30:47 2007
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 08:30:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <006701c8081d$20a6df60$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Shipley" <shiples at comcast.net>

>
> I understand that cattle can be controlled by an electric fence.  Would it
> be possible to electrify a downspout?
> Could I choose between mild discomfort and heart stopping?
>
> Steve Shipley


I have a non-intrusive, innocent looking wire running around my landscaping 
in the front of the house.  I had a duck that liked to lay her eggs under 
one of the larger Yews.  The dogs (Southern dogs)  liked to steal her eggs. 
The fence has deterred the dogs from entering the area (they stay away from 
it even if it is unplugged) and the duck is happy.  However, if I 
accidentally touch this wire, it will put me on the ground.  I guess this 
would serve your purpose, but you'd have to get a duck and a dog to justify 
it.

Patricia 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sat Oct  6 09:02:44 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 10:02:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<006701c8081d$20a6df60$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <008c01c80829$f39f8be0$6401a8c0@niolon>

> I have a non-intrusive, innocent looking wire running around my 
> landscaping
> in the front of the house.  I had a duck that liked to lay her eggs under
> one of the larger Yews.  The dogs (Southern dogs)  liked to steal her 
> eggs.
> The fence has deterred the dogs from entering the area (they stay away 
> from
> it even if it is unplugged) and the duck is happy.  However, if I
> accidentally touch this wire, it will put me on the ground.  I guess this
> would serve your purpose, but you'd have to get a duck and a dog to 
> justify
> it.
>
> Patricia


Patricia ???   why doesn't the wire bother the duck ??? does she fly over or 
are those webbed feet insulated ?

john

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Oct  6 09:16:49 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 08:16:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Sounds tempting, but it's well established law and legal 
> precedent that 
> a lethal "booby trap" makes its installer guilty of homocide. 
>  EVEN IF 
> it's INSIDE his home or business, and the victim B&E'ed to get in.

Right.  It's important to keep it sub-lethal.  Say about Taser level.

Electric fence chargers (at least the ones I'm familiar with) deliver a
single jolt of high voltage (several hundred volts) every few seconds.  Kind
of like a car ignition, it's not really AC or DC, just a pulse.  Not
intended to be lethal to anything (even a relatively small animal), just
intensely unpleasant.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct  6 09:34:10 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:34:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com>
	<004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <0JPH00I6EXUE16G0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

The problem with most of these sub-lethal strategies is that you 
create a really pissed off crook.  Now instead of stealing something, 
maybe he'll trash the entire place.  Or set it on fire.  Back when 
car radios all were held in by the posts of the two knobs, people 
would sometimes propose a razor blade sharp washer behind each 
nut.  Legal issues aside, now instead of losing your stereo, you find 
all your windows broken and the seats slashed.  And the radio is 
probably gone anyway.  That would make it rather hard to feel victorious.

-Steve  

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct  6 09:39:02 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:39:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <0JPH00I6EXUE16G0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com>
	<004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<0JPH00I6EXUE16G0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <0JPH00KOGY1RM0F0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Upon rereading, I feel  a need to clarify.  I am trying to warn 
against creating an angry criminal.  I am NOT trying to suggest that 
you use lethal strategies instead.  There.  OK?  Now my attorney is 
much happier. :-)

At 11:34 AM 10/6/2007, Steven Trovato wrote:
>The problem with most of these sub-lethal strategies is that you
>create a really pissed off crook.  Now instead of stealing something,
>maybe he'll trash the entire place.  Or set it on fire.  Back when
>car radios all were held in by the posts of the two knobs, people
>would sometimes propose a razor blade sharp washer behind each
>nut.  Legal issues aside, now instead of losing your stereo, you find
>all your windows broken and the seats slashed.  And the radio is
>probably gone anyway.  That would make it rather hard to feel victorious.
>
>-Steve
>_______________________________________________
>strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Oct  6 11:08:39 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 13:08:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com>
	<004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <4707C117.6000607@xxiii.com>

> Right.  It's important to keep it sub-lethal.  Say about Taser level.

Years ago, uhh... these guys, I, uhh... heard about had some electronics 
stolen from a car, and a lot of unnecessary damage done to the car in 
the process.  These same guys were rumored to dabble in home made 
explosives.  They came up with the idea to line a large radar detector 
(eg:  original Escort) with metal sleeving (like a large pipe bomb), 
fill it will it with explosives and shrapnel, and wire an electronic 
ignitor to the power cord.  Then leave it in an unlocked car to be stolen.

The beauty of this was the stolen goods would be far away, in someone 
else's car, at head level when plugged in  ;)

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Sat Oct  6 11:16:56 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:16:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <4707C117.6000607@xxiii.com>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com><004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4707C117.6000607@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c8083c$b2d96230$6501a8c0@proteus457>

The problem comes in when I go to my local pawn shop and buy the radar
detector that the thieves never tried.  They just sold it for the money, and
now I get taken out.

Having been on the wrong end of thievery several times, I would like to hurt
some thieves as much as most of you.  The problem is that it's just too hard
to make sure that no innocent people are caught in the trap.

My .02

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne
> 
> > Right.  It's important to keep it sub-lethal.  Say about Taser level.
> 
> Years ago, uhh... these guys, I, uhh... heard about had some electronics
> stolen from a car, and a lot of unnecessary damage done to the car in
> the process.  These same guys were rumored to dabble in home made
> explosives.  They came up with the idea to line a large radar detector
> (eg:  original Escort) with metal sleeving (like a large pipe bomb),
> fill it will it with explosives and shrapnel, and wire an electronic
> ignitor to the power cord.  Then leave it in an unlocked car to be stolen.
> 
> The beauty of this was the stolen goods would be far away, in someone
> else's car, at head level when plugged in  ;)

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 12:50:08 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 18:50:08 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
Message-ID: <100620071850.13972.4707D8E00009971500003694220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Michael Lye <mlye at risd.edu>
> Note that it's not just with knock-offs that this happens. Home  
> despot will often ask/force their vendors to take an existing product  
> and make it cheaper to meet a price point without changing the  
> external appearance. Makes it seem like you're getting the same  
> product cheaper at HD but in fact it may not be the same product  
> inside. The manufacturer that I've spoken to isn't happy about it but  
> doesn't have much choice in the matter or the don't get on the  
> shelves at the HD.

I think if I'm the manufacturer, I'd almost rather not be on the shelves at HD than cheapen my product and ruin my reputation.  if I'm the victim of that when I buy xx, then I'm not buying it at the specialty store either, out of fear that they've made those crap as well.

I'll give you an example: right now I'm shopping for a riding mower.  I've had several people try to sell me their used john deere with the line, "I bought this from the dealer, not hd.  the ones they sell at hd are junk."  well, as far as I can tell, the ones they sell at hd are identical (same engine, the deck seems the same thickness, etc.)

I have no idea if they're different at hd or not, but I'm going to avoid jd just on the risk that they might be crap everywhere.  if deere really had a good product, they'd sell it, and if a retailer didn't want to carry it, they'd let them do that, not cheapen the product so sucker consumers would buy it.  and if I did buy a deere, it'd be the home depot one.  if it's crap everywhere, might as well pay the least I can for it.

I had to sit through a semester of these issue in school.  amazing how all the buzzwords boil down to this.
scott

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 13:09:06 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:09:06 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
Message-ID: <100620071909.19776.4707DD520001E7ED00004D40220075043804040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
> Mark Andy wrote:
> > I dunno if plumbers do this, but in terms of car repair places, they bitch 
> > because then they can't buy the part at a lower price and mark it up to 
> > retail on the customer's bill.
> > (which I don't particularly have a problem with, btw).
> 
> Charging a mark up on parts is acceptable, esp if the installer bears 
> the cost of keeping inventory.

I've been on both sides of that fence also.  on the one hand, I get my parts from a local place that treats me like a 'pro', in that they don't charge me for cores, will deliver, etc.  they're awesome, and really don't look at the prices they're charging me much.  when I did, it was close to chain stores.  I'd be willing to pay more, just for the service and to keep them around.  that's a parts store.

the reason I don't go to repair shops is for the reasons you mentioned.  I tried a few times on a difm basis to bring them the part (new, in box, still had plugs, etc. on it) and have them r&r it when I didn't have time.  or even diagnose it and repair, whatever.  on the first, they refused.  the reason given was they couldn't be sure the part would be good, and I'd be mad at them if it failed.  I said no, I wouldn't, just get it on the car.  nope.  okay, how much for your part?  twice as much as I paid.  they buy it from the same place I do (the parts store above).  I doubt they'd be paying more for it, and might get a discount from the store.  well, okay, maybe they inventory the part and want to cover their overhead on inventory (but man, that's some overhead)?  nope, it'll take a day because they have to 'have it delivered' (in my dealings with that parts store, nothing ever takes more than same day on common items, like the ones I wanted replaced).  hell, I had it in my hand, 
just bought it.  they've got more on the shelf.  it'll be here in an hour.

so they're lazy, greedy, and they've taken me for a sucker.  buh-bye.

on the second, they screwed up the diagnosis, wanted to charge me for replacing a good part because they incorrectly thought it was bad, then charge again for time to fix the original problem.  parts still at 100% markup or greater from retail.

I seem to be the 'car' guy in my office and people ask a lot where to get their car fixed.  I must have told a dozen people how scummy that shop is.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 13:19:54 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:19:54 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality parts
Message-ID: <100620071919.22.4707DFDA000634A100000016220075043804040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> At 04:42 PM 10/5/2007 -0400, David Scheidt wrote:
> 
> On the same subject, has anyone noticed the quality of aftermarket auto
> parts.  Do you think it's junk?  Should you go to the discount dealers for
> the OEM parts.
> 
> I bought an 84 Honda Accord new.  It took almost 20 years and over 120,000
> for things to fail, like the 1/2 shafts and alternator.  I bought, what I
> thought was decient, parts from the aftermarket box store suppliers, AutoZone,
> Advanced, etc.
> 
> The replacement 1/2 shafts only lasted about 2 years as did the alternator.
> In the last 4 to 5 years, I've replaced the 1/2 shafts twice, and the 
> alternator twice.
> 
> I'm beginning to there that there really is something to the OEM parts!
> But sometimes I just can't accept the price, like $380 for a Honda alternator.

I'm still amazed about the oem wear parts on our '93 mazda.  the clutch was replaced by me in 2001 at 250k miles with a mot of meat still on it.  I did it only because I had a long weekend and couldn't believe it was still going and was halfway concerned it was shot and something about the car was preventing me from feeling or hearing the scraping,etc.

same car, front pads replaces at ~90k for same reason, lots of pad left.  NINETY THOUSAND MILES!  replacements from discount auto lasted about 25k.  I'll be buying oem mazda wear items from now on.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 13:27:46 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:27:46 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
Message-ID: <100620071927.25230.4707E1B20000D1230000628E220702155304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Steve Shipley <shiples at comcast.net>

> I understand that cattle can be controlled by an electric fence.  Would it 
> be possible to electrify a downspout?
> Could I choose between mild discomfort and heart stopping?

extra-crispy, move to the deep south, and practice saying, "there must have been a wire rubbing against the gutters on the outside extension cord I've got for the sprinkler system, or something.  dunno what happened."  seriously, just don't fess up to it, and remove the system when you hear the screams.  and if you get it working, send me plans.

I'd second what everyone else said about pissing off the crook.  if you're going for it, go all in.  don't give them a chance to come back to get even.

I really dislike thieves.

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sat Oct  6 14:54:06 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:54:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com><004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><4707C117.6000607@xxiii.com>
	<000d01c8083c$b2d96230$6501a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <00c501c8085b$0987ccc0$6401a8c0@niolon>

> Having been on the wrong end of thievery several times, I would like to 
> hurt
> some thieves as much as most of you.  The problem is that it's just too 
> hard
> to make sure that no innocent people are caught in the trap.
>

ok ?? show of hands... how many of you innocent people have gone to a friend 
or strangers house and grabbed hold of his copper gutters ??   anyone ?? 
anyone

j

and Patricia ??   ducking under ?? cute 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Oct  6 15:11:31 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:11:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quality parts
In-Reply-To: <262436.50121.qm@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <262436.50121.qm@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4707FA03.2030303@xxiii.com>

Rand E wrote:
> Become friends with the part guys at your local
> dealersip.  I buy most of my parts at the dealer.  So
> many that he gives me a very nice discount.  Just this
> week I bought an MR2 clutch slave cylinder at the

I tried that, with little success.  I have/had some Nissans I abused and 
broke frequently.  I'm all for OEM parts, but used to mail order them 
dealers that sold at discount.  I tried haggling with the local guy that 
I also knew well, but he just screwed me over.

I've bought thousands of dollars of Nissan parts from 
www.CourtesyParts.com  So much  that when my brother bought the same car 
and called them, they caught the name and asked "Are you related to 
Wayne?".  Courtesy is freakin' HUGE too.  Last I was told, they had 19 
employees in the parts dept working two shifts to cover demand!  Wow. 
Ever seen a 4 cylinder Sentra (all motor, not gutted) run a 14.x second 
1/4 mile ;)  The engine was all for it, but the rest of the drivetrain 
protested a lot!

   -Wayne

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Oct  6 15:16:45 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:16:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <000d01c8083c$b2d96230$6501a8c0@proteus457>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com><004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<4707C117.6000607@xxiii.com>
	<000d01c8083c$b2d96230$6501a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <4707FB3D.10908@xxiii.com>

Mike Frerichs wrote:
> The problem comes in when I go to my local pawn shop and buy the radar
> detector that the thieves never tried.  They just sold it for the money, and
> now I get taken out.

Well, if your friendly neighborhood pawn broker is selling stolen
merchandise...

> Having been on the wrong end of thievery several times, I would like to hurt
> some thieves as much as most of you.  The problem is that it's just too hard
> to make sure that no innocent people are caught in the trap.

It was said to be a long time ago.  Back when someone would actually
steal an Escort.  I never read about the guys in the paper, so I can
only guess it was just some harmless venting over drinks at the bar, and
not something that was carried out.

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Sat Oct  6 15:38:09 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:38:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <00c501c8085b$0987ccc0$6401a8c0@niolon>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><47078B7A.7090904@xxiii.com><004201c8082b$eb13d2e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><4707C117.6000607@xxiii.com><000d01c8083c$b2d96230$6501a8c0@proteus457>
	<00c501c8085b$0987ccc0$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <001101c80861$30762c40$6501a8c0@proteus457>

I hadn't even thought of this connection, but now that you mention
it........

This morning, I and some other men went over to the house of a widow who was
in need of some help getting her yard cleaned up.  We were there to rake
leaves/trim bushes/trim trees.  While there, we noticed that the gutters
were overflowing with leaves and since one of the guys had a ladder with him
I went up on the roof and emptied the gutters.  Standing water told us that
the downspouts were completely clogged, so we went to work unclogging them,
which included removing some sections of downspout.

Granted, this lady wasn't the type to have electrified her gutters, and her
gutters weren't copper.  My point is that she didn't know we were going to
do anything with the gutters and she wasn't outside supervising us.  Had she
been the techno/defensive type, one of us could have been hurt.

This is just an example that came up today.  It wouldn't be hard to think of
other examples that are more plausible than this where an innocent could get
hurt.

I'm not saying don't do it.  I'm just saying that someone who does do it
shouldn't be surprised if it comes back to bite him somehow.

Mike Frerichs


> -----Original Message-----
> From: john niolon
> 
> ok ?? show of hands... how many of you innocent people have gone to a
> friend
> or strangers house and grabbed hold of his copper gutters ??   anyone ??
> anyone

From shiples at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 15:38:39 2007
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 14:38:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <006701c8081d$20a6df60$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net>

Thank you Patricia,
   Could you elaborate on the type of circuit?  They just made goats legal 
as pets here in Seattle.

Perhaps I could claim the thief was molesting my goat.



>I have a non-intrusive, innocent looking wire running around my 
>landscaping in the front of the house.  I had a duck that liked to lay her 
>eggs under one of the larger Yews.  The dogs (Southern dogs)  liked to 
>steal her eggs. The fence has deterred the dogs from entering the area 
>(they stay away from it even if it is unplugged) and the duck is 
>happy.  However, if I accidentally touch this wire, it will put me on the 
>ground.  I guess this would serve your purpose, but you'd have to get a 
>duck and a dog to justify it.
>
>Patricia

From shiples at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 16:33:42 2007
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:33:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W87620D51FAD7C41A15AC1E1AA0@phx.gbl>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006142706.03726b30@mail.comcast.net>

At 07:13 AM 10/6/2007 -0500, Rich White wrote:
>While what you are suggesting is understandable and intriguing, Im not sure
>it is legal.
>If the system is unattended, an innocent person or animal might get hurt.

I'm aware that it's illegal to shoot a thief in the back as I'm chasing him 
with a shotgun or a MAC10.

But what if when the thief pulls on the downspout the buzzer goes off and 
he feels a little tingle?

.....and the next pulse tingles a bit more?

Thanks for the warning about angry criminals but I believe that the proper 
values for voltage and amperage
could discourage them without making them angry.  We could have the video 
cameras and the alarms
going off while they're trashing the place.  These are sneak thieves.

Thanks to all for your help.  I'll probably go for some X-10 stuff to 
provide an audible warning and video.
I'll be shopping for the electric fence next.  I've always wanted one of 
those.  And I think I just got sold on
a sprinkler system.

And thanks again to the List itself.  Best mailing list in the WORLD!

Steve Shipley

From lane495 at nctc.com  Sat Oct  6 16:34:22 2007
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:34:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Shipley" <shiples at comcast.net>



> Thank you Patricia,
>   Could you elaborate on the type of circuit?  They just made goats legal
> as pets here in Seattle.
>
> Perhaps I could claim the thief was molesting my goat.


I do not know the technical terms for the different fencers I have.  I do 
know that the fencer that is around the landscaping is an "always on" 
fencer.  The fencer that contains the cows, goats, and horses "pulsates". 
The one at the house is for 50 miles of fence - hmm, maybe that is why it 
literally knocks me off of it.

I've never (knock on wood) had any problems with thieves down here.  Maybe 
that's because my reputation as a transplanted Yankee scares them off.  ;o)

Patricia 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Oct  6 18:19:57 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:19:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <100620071850.13972.4707D8E00009971500003694220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <100620071850.13972.4707D8E00009971500003694220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <008e01c80877$ca937150$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

>  well, as far as I 
> can tell, the ones they sell at hd are identical (same 
> engine, the deck seems the same thickness, etc.)
> 
> I have no idea if they're different at hd or not,

Scott, I work for a division of Deere.  And I think I can promise you that,
if it's the same model number, it's the same mower.   Deere may cut their
price to the big box stores (I don't know anything about that), but they
never cut quality for anybody.

And if you EVER find a Deere factory "second" on the market, please let us
know so we can track down and prosecute whoever stole or forged it.  It's
simply not supposed to happen.

That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if your local dealer gives you
better service on a mower you bought from him, than the one that came from a
discount place with no service department.

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 18:31:41 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:31:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood vs Harbor Freight
In-Reply-To: <008e01c80877$ca937150$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <100620071850.13972.4707D8E00009971500003694220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
	<008e01c80877$ca937150$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710061731y47d6a83dtdefc4c230e3a613a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> >  well, as far as I
> > can tell, the ones they sell at hd are identical (same
> > engine, the deck seems the same thickness, etc.)
> >
> > I have no idea if they're different at hd or not,
>
> Scott, I work for a division of Deere.  And I think I can promise you that,
> if it's the same model number, it's the same mower.   Deere may cut their
> price to the big box stores (I don't know anything about that), but they
> never cut quality for anybody.
>

At least when HD started selling JD mowers (under the Deere name; I
think their in house brand was made by deere before that) they only
sold the lowest line.  So the ones from the dealer could well be
better.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shiples at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 22:20:37 2007
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 21:20:37 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710061543v61e463f5i60909e5aef89bf72@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006142706.03726b30@mail.comcast.net>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<BAY123-W87620D51FAD7C41A15AC1E1AA0@phx.gbl>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006142706.03726b30@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006201256.03727e30@mail.comcast.net>

At 06:43 PM 10/6/2007 -0400, you wrote:

> > Thanks for the warning about angry criminals but I believe that the proper
> > values for voltage and amperage
> > could discourage them without making them angry.  We could have the video
> > cameras and the alarms
> > going off while they're trashing the place.  These are sneak thieves.
>
>Scrap theives killed four people around here last winter.


Details please!

Are they armed robbers who when confronted will kill?  Or will they kill first,
then take my scrap?  I figure I was a good score, maybe 300-400 bucks.
But with more secure hangers, alarm, and the delivery of a non lethal
voltage to them, am I going to get murdered?  I assumed that it was easy
money and with added difficulty they'd move on.   The first crime wave I saw
was solved by using the lock on the door.  Then in the 80s they'd force 
windows
and kick in doors.  I'd say we have about 30-40 percent of the
neighborhood alarmed but I hadn't bothered since I think the only thing
I've lost in 15 years is a battery, and now the downspouts.

The responses to my original question have been interesting.  Let me attempt
a summary.
Don't put up a defense, the thieves will harm me.
Don't put up a defense, it's against the law.
Don't put up a defense, someone could get hurt
Put up a strong defense, we would prefer our thieves to be dead

What I want is a way to deter thieves.  I would hope that nobody ever got 
hurt except criminals and Darwin Award candidates.

I think the best answer from all responders was the sprinklers.  Non lethal 
deterrence.
It looks like X-10 has a device that will control low voltage devices like 
sprinkler valves.

I'm a big fan of dogs as well. My neighbors have had German Sheppards ever 
since they
moved in, nothing gets stolen from their part of the block.

Looks like I'm going to start this project by putting up new el cheapo 
($214) downspouts up.
I had to special order them so I don't have to pull down the gutters. This 
seems like the most
obvious solution.  If it's not worth stealing, the thieves won't bother.

The next step will be to install some alarm and surveillance stuff.

And before any copper goes up, it's going to be firmly mounted with copper 
plated steel
brackets with maybe some galvanized chain inside?

So if you're ever over at the shop and the sprinklers come on, and you 
notice a flashing light,
there's pulsating sound from a buzzer that is increasing in volume, and you 
feel a tingling sensation
when you touch the downspout you might want to consider if all your safety 
gear is in good condition
and that the area is free from any and all safety hazards. If you're still 
standing in the sprinkler now,
you might want to .....(Punch Line has been removed as the author just wet 
his pants)

From chad at linuxeg.com  Sat Oct  6 22:32:29 2007
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 00:32:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006201256.03727e30@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006142706.03726b30@mail.comcast.net>
	<009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<BAY123-W87620D51FAD7C41A15AC1E1AA0@phx.gbl>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006142706.03726b30@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006201256.03727e30@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4708615D.7050406@linuxeg.com>

I haven't read every posting so this may have not be pertinent but
some years back - 10, if not more - a shop owner (TV repair)
booby trapped his shop with hi voltage. Some criminal - sorry -
"alleged" criminal broke in and got zapped big time. No legal
action was taken against the shop owner. Sorry I don't have
more precise details but it was some time ago.
chad
Oh yea, I'm in Miami, Fl. if that makes a difference

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 22:33:08 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:33:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006201256.03727e30@mail.comcast.net>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<BAY123-W87620D51FAD7C41A15AC1E1AA0@phx.gbl>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006142706.03726b30@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006201256.03727e30@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710062133q3db738e9h41f70a2ec8635c85@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Steve Shipley <shiples at comcast.net> wrote:
> At 06:43 PM 10/6/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>
> > > Thanks for the warning about angry criminals but I believe that the proper
> > > values for voltage and amperage
> > > could discourage them without making them angry.  We could have the video
> > > cameras and the alarms
> > > going off while they're trashing the place.  These are sneak thieves.
> >
> >Scrap theives killed four people around here last winter.
>
>
> Details please!
>

It was "scrappers" killing other scrappers.  I think the victims stole
some scrap from the first people, who'd stole it themselves.  The
murders were certainly the sort of people who'd have smashed your
windows or other petty destruction if you pissed them off.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From nogera at worldnet.att.net  Sat Oct  6 22:56:20 2007
From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 23:56:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <100620071909.19776.4707DD520001E7ED00004D40220075043804040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000201c8089e$6904db00$4101a8c0@CARROOM>

My Neighbor called me a few months ago to see if I could help get her
husbands car started. He had died several months before and the car had been
sitting in the garage.  I went down and the battery was dead flat, gave it a
jump start with no problem. I then followed her to the GOODYEAR TIRE STORE a
couple of miles away where they had always had the car serviced. She left
the car and I gave her a ride home. A bit later she called because they
called to tell here she had an oil leak and they needed to steam clean the
engine to find the leak ( 75 dollars to steam clean ) and she needed several
other parts . I went back down with her and asked to see the leak . I
couldn't believe that  five minutes of running would oil up an engine so bad
that you could not tell what was leaking.
When we arrived I noticed that while the car was in the stall the hood was
still down ???  When I asked then to show me where the oil leak was located
they opened the hood and looked around , finally he passed his finger over
the backside if a valve cover and showed me a dirty, not oily finger.
I told the guy, if you didn't seem to have any problem finding the " leak"
without the steam cleaning. Replace the battery which was under  warranty
and keep your hands off the rest of the car.
Sad part is the replacement battery after pro rating  and installation
charge came out to twice what she could have bought one for at a box store.
Sorry for taking up band width with my rant but every chance I have,  I make
it a point to take a shot at GOODYEAR.

Bob Nogueira

PS: I skipped the part about how the 'TEST" ( conducted without ever opening
the hood )  showed she  needed  new Alternator as well.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
> I seem to be the 'car' guy in my office and people ask a lot
> where to get their car fixed.  I must have told a dozen
> people how scummy that shop is.
> _______________________________________________
> nogera at worldnet.att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Sun Oct  7 00:30:29 2007
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 23:30:29 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000801c808ab$9112d720$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>

On Saturday, October 06, 2007, at 14:39, Steve Shipley wrote:

> Perhaps I could claim the thief was molesting my goat.

Since capriphilia is now a felony in Washington that argument might have
some weight, but check with a lawyer. 

Bob K

From kturk at ala.net  Sun Oct  7 01:44:53 2007
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 02:44:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
References: <000201c8089e$6904db00$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <003801c808b5$f39b1970$6900a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

I'd have called the Police department right then... that simple.

K

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Oct  7 08:30:49 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:30:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net>
	<011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>

Patricia Lane wrote:
> fencer.  The fencer that contains the cows, goats, and horses "pulsates". 
> The one at the house is for 50 miles of fence - hmm, maybe that is why it 
> literally knocks me off of it.

50 miles?!?!  Literally?  Crikey!  How much land do you have?  That's 
264,000 linear feet of fence, or a square 66,000' on a side which would 
enclose exactly 100,000 acres!

BTW, I just noticed the other day you seem to be the first lady on the 
list;  cool!  Wish there were more mechanically inclined women, or more 
women willing to embrace the skills they have.  Lisa (that I've since 
married) demanded years ago that the brakes we needed to replace on her 
car were "really basic car stuff, right?  Show me how to do them."

    -Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 08:59:09 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:59:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net>
	<011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
	<4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710070759i153d5869l33dff41d15e51328@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> Patricia Lane wrote:
> > fencer.  The fencer that contains the cows, goats, and horses "pulsates".
> > The one at the house is for 50 miles of fence - hmm, maybe that is why it
> > literally knocks me off of it.
>
> 50 miles?!?!  Literally?  Crikey!  How much land do you have?  That's
> 264,000 linear feet of fence, or a square 66,000' on a side which would
> enclose exactly 100,000 acres!
>

It's a lot less than that when you start electrifying the interior
fences, or you run more than one strand of electrified wire


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Oct  7 09:42:56 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 11:42:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <000201c8089e$6904db00$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
References: <000201c8089e$6904db00$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <B46A25FC-A017-489C-B8B8-379AB5A658FD@groupwbench.org>

On Oct 7, 2007, at 12:56 AM, Bob Nogueira wrote:


> Sorry for taking up band width with my rant but every chance I  
> have,  I make
> it a point to take a shot at GOODYEAR.

Goodyear stores, in my opinion, make Sears' service dept gouging  
fiasco of a few years ago look like child's play. Yet every Saturday  
I see the line out the door.

jim

From schauss at worldnet.att.net  Sun Oct  7 12:01:12 2007
From: schauss at worldnet.att.net (Peter Schauss)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:01:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moth larvae in a vacuum cleaner
Message-ID: <20071007180140.D2B79187BBF@autox.team.net>

(I believe that this qualifies as on topic because the machine in question
currently resides in my garage because my wife is afraid to take it back
into the house.)

Yesterday we took some old wool area rugs out of our storage unit and
discovered that they were infested with moth larvae.  One of the rugs was
damaged beyond repair, but the others looked like they were salvageable.  We
vacuumed these until it looked like we had removed all of the visible moth
larvae and changed the dust bag in the vacuum cleaner.  We are going to have
these rugs professionally cleaned.  Now our concern is that there may be
some larvae left alive in the power head and the hose.  What can I spray the
insides of the vacuum cleaner with to kill any surviving larvae?

Thanks,
Peter Schauss

From shiples at comcast.net  Sun Oct  7 12:18:11 2007
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 11:18:11 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security / capriphilia
In-Reply-To: <000801c808ab$9112d720$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071007105738.0377b380@mail.comcast.net>

At 11:30 PM 10/6/2007 -0700, Bob Kegel wrote:
>On Saturday, October 06, 2007, at 14:39, Steve Shipley wrote:
>
> > Perhaps I could claim the thief was molesting my goat.
>
>Since capriphilia is now a felony in Washington that argument might have
>some weight, but check with a lawyer.

I didn't know what that word meant but I think I know the reference.

Very funny.  When that happened, I found the guy's name on a Boeing website.

I'd love to own a goat that loved scrappers but I'm more comfortable with
an electric fence.  Given a choice I think the scrappers would agree.

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Oct  7 13:31:30 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:31:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing latex paint from poly floor
Message-ID: <5A73D89F-3C87-4B93-A07A-A01E59B48E2F@groupwbench.org>

I painted my baseboard molding and in some places the tape didn't  
seal and there's paint on the (3 week old) polyurethane floor. How  
can I remove this without affecting the poly? The floor isn't smooth  
enough for a razor scraper, and a nylon scrubbing brush is scratching  
the poly.

thanks,
jim

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 14:13:21 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:13:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing latex paint from poly floor
In-Reply-To: <5A73D89F-3C87-4B93-A07A-A01E59B48E2F@groupwbench.org>
References: <5A73D89F-3C87-4B93-A07A-A01E59B48E2F@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710071313v502067a0te1486195e27e6077@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> I painted my baseboard molding and in some places the tape didn't
> seal and there's paint on the (3 week old) polyurethane floor. How
> can I remove this without affecting the poly? The floor isn't smooth
> enough for a razor scraper, and a nylon scrubbing brush is scratching
> the poly.

I'd try rubbing alcohol, and then xylene.
check that the solvent doesn't dissolve the floor.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From lane495 at nctc.com  Sun Oct  7 14:39:45 2007
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:39:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net><011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
	<4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c80922$3a921790$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>



> Patricia Lane wrote:
>> fencer.  The fencer that contains the cows, goats, and horses "pulsates".
>> The one at the house is for 50 miles of fence - hmm, maybe that is why it
>> literally knocks me off of it.
>
> 50 miles?!?!  Literally?  Crikey!  How much land do you have?  That's
> 264,000 linear feet of fence, or a square 66,000' on a side which would
> enclose exactly 100,000 acres!

If you think about it, it really isn't that much fence.  I have four rows 
running the entire perimeter of the farm (10 acres or so).  The main fencer 
is for more like 100+ miles.  I have stubborn animals that need a reality 
check when they try to visit the neighbors.  The one at the house is only a 
single wire running roughly 50 feet.

>
> BTW, I just noticed the other day you seem to be the first lady on the
> list;  cool!  Wish there were more mechanically inclined women, or more
> women willing to embrace the skills they have.  Lisa (that I've since
> married) demanded years ago that the brakes we needed to replace on her
> car were "really basic car stuff, right?  Show me how to do them."
>
>    -Wayne

I like Lisa!  I like to know how things work and how to fix them, so  if 
something happens to my husband I can do it by myself (no his days aren't 
limited).  Speaking of him, I had to buy him his own old truck just so he 
wouldn't drive mine anymore!  I've made fun of it at:  www.herhayhauler.com

Patricia 

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Oct  7 15:46:28 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:46:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Removing latex paint from poly floor
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710071313v502067a0te1486195e27e6077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5A73D89F-3C87-4B93-A07A-A01E59B48E2F@groupwbench.org>
	<2400a5d40710071313v502067a0te1486195e27e6077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2FDF45EB-FAA7-4BB9-BF80-2A8E45EC75D4@groupwbench.org>

On Oct 7, 2007, at 4:13 PM, David Scheidt wrote:

> On 10/7/07, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
>> I painted my baseboard molding and in some places the tape didn't
>> seal and there's paint on the (3 week old) polyurethane floor. How
>> can I remove this without affecting the poly? The floor isn't smooth
>> enough for a razor scraper, and a nylon scrubbing brush is scratching
>> the poly.
>
> I'd try rubbing alcohol

I used denatured since I had to go buy some anyway, but worked like a  
charm.

thanks,
jim

From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com  Sun Oct  7 15:52:50 2007
From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:52:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <00be01c80922$3a921790$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net><011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
	<4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com> 
	<00be01c80922$3a921790$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W203B495E941BB83B06406FE1AB0@phx.gbl>

> Patricia Lane wrote:> I've made fun of it at: www.herhayhauler.com
Patricia,
That url does not work for me.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA'63 TR3B
TCF587LThat ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!See it moves!

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sun Oct  7 18:17:06 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 00:17:06 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
Message-ID: <100820070017.2718.4709770200023DA800000A9E220702065304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

you know, my uncle works for goodyear, my grandfather worked for goodyear all his life, we like the tires, etc., etc.  having said that, my uncle's sister (my mother) who dearly loves he kid brother and idolizes her dad, *detests* the local goodyear store.  called 'em a bunch of dirty crooks.  this from my mother is akin to a thrid-generation uaw member bashing ford and buying everyone in his family toyotas.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Bob Nogueira" <nogera at worldnet.att.net>
> My Neighbor called me a few months ago to see if I could help get her
> husbands car started. He had died several months before and the car had been
> sitting in the garage.  I went down and the battery was dead flat, gave it a

<snip>

> Sad part is the replacement battery after pro rating  and installation
> charge came out to twice what she could have bought one for at a box store.
> Sorry for taking up band width with my rant but every chance I have,  I make
> it a point to take a shot at GOODYEAR.

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Sun Oct  7 18:18:47 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:18:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
References: <000201c8089e$6904db00$4101a8c0@CARROOM>
Message-ID: <002c01c80940$cc664330$5e0e08d8@CPQ12949640186>

Goodyear tires stores have been that way for decades.

Gal I knew showed up one night in tears over the safety inspection hit list 
they gave her on a car she'd just bought.  Six pages long.  It was so bad it 
was downright funny.  She needed new tires, new doors, new windows, new 
fenders, new shocks, new springs, new radiator, new exhaust, new lights, new 
hood, new window cranks, new steering wheel, new gauges, new seats, new seat 
belts, new bumpers, new engine, new transmission, new differential, new 
waterpump, new alternator, new wipers, new horn, etc, etc, etc.

After we calmed her down, and spent a long time laughing at the incredible 
list Goodyear came up with, we sent her to a friends shop.  I think she 
needed a set of shocks, nothing more.

From BSHolden at aol.com  Sun Oct  7 18:25:30 2007
From: BSHolden at aol.com (BSHolden at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:25:30 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
Message-ID: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>

Yup. Back in the mid '80's I encountered this situation. Geez, take a  
company vehicle with 40K on it in for a LOF and they call back telling me I  needed 
new tie rod ends, u-joints and a muffler. 
Beware that in central Iowa they now carry the Freedom Tire moniker.
 
Of course, the local Firestone and Tires+ stores try to pull the same  BS.
 
Buyer beware.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 10/7/2007 7:18:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
foxtrapper at aceweb.com writes:

Gal I  knew showed up one night in tears over the safety inspection hit list 
they  gave her on a car she'd just bought.  Six pages long.  It was so bad  
it 
was downright funny.  She needed new tires, new doors, new  windows, new 
fenders, new shocks, new springs, new radiator, new exhaust,  new lights, new 
hood, new window cranks, new steering wheel, new gauges,  new seats, new seat 
belts, new bumpers, new engine, new transmission, new  differential, new 
waterpump, new alternator, new wipers, new horn, etc,  etc, etc.

After we calmed her down, and spent a long time laughing at  the incredible 
list Goodyear came up with, we sent her to a friends  shop.  I think she 
needed a set of shocks, nothing  more.







************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Sun Oct  7 18:28:15 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:28:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net><011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns><4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>
	<00be01c80922$3a921790$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <005a01c80942$1f1cc5d0$5e0e08d8@CPQ12949640186>

They work well for predators too.  I've a 100 milers myself, just for 
determined foxes and the like.  Things were quite noisy here at night for 
the first week when I put it up.  They came to go a hunting like they 
regularly did, only to get blasted off their feet by the fence.

I've tangled with a few times myself.  To say it knocks me to my knees is an 
understatement.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Patricia Lane" <lane495 at nctc.com>
To: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>; "Shop Talk List" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop security


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
>
>
>
>> Patricia Lane wrote:
>>> fencer.  The fencer that contains the cows, goats, and horses 
>>> "pulsates".
>>> The one at the house is for 50 miles of fence - hmm, maybe that is why 
>>> it
>>> literally knocks me off of it.
>>
>> 50 miles?!?!  Literally?  Crikey!  How much land do you have?  That's
>> 264,000 linear feet of fence, or a square 66,000' on a side which would
>> enclose exactly 100,000 acres!
>
> If you think about it, it really isn't that much fence.  I have four rows
> running the entire perimeter of the farm (10 acres or so).  The main 
> fencer
> is for more like 100+ miles.  I have stubborn animals that need a reality
> check when they try to visit the neighbors.  The one at the house is only 
> a
> single wire running roughly 50 feet.

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Sun Oct  7 18:29:03 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:29:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moth larvae in a vacuum cleaner
References: <20071007180140.D2B79187BBF@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c80942$3bb68cd0$5e0e08d8@CPQ12949640186>

bug spray.  I like pyrethrins myself.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Schauss" <schauss at worldnet.att.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:01 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moth larvae in a vacuum cleaner


> (I believe that this qualifies as on topic because the machine in question
> currently resides in my garage because my wife is afraid to take it back
> into the house.)
>
> Yesterday we took some old wool area rugs out of our storage unit and
> discovered that they were infested with moth larvae.  One of the rugs was
> damaged beyond repair, but the others looked like they were salvageable. 
> We
> vacuumed these until it looked like we had removed all of the visible moth
> larvae and changed the dust bag in the vacuum cleaner.  We are going to 
> have
> these rugs professionally cleaned.  Now our concern is that there may be
> some larvae left alive in the power head and the hose.  What can I spray 
> the
> insides of the vacuum cleaner with to kill any surviving larvae?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter Schauss
> _______________________________________________
> foxtrapper at aceweb.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk 

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Oct  7 18:59:40 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:59:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <00be01c80922$3a921790$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net><011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
	<4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>
	<00be01c80922$3a921790$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <470980FC.8000501@hornesystemstx.com>

I use a fence charger that is supposed to be good for 50 miles also. We 
have 50 acres, not all hot fenced, but we do have about 15,000 ft of 
fence that is, including a couple of cross fences that have hot wire on 
both sides. We run mainly goats on our place, and they still get through 
the fence. The charger we use will put over 10,000 volts into our fence, 
even when there are wet weeds against it. It is actually designed to 
burn the weeds away from the hot wire, but that doesn't always work. 
When the voltage gets down to about 7,000 volts, we go trim some grass 
if we expect wet conditions . Too bad goats don't eat grass, or they 
could keep the fence clear for us! 

We also have one stubborn buffalo that wants to run with the neighbor 
cows. The hot wire doesn't phase him, I've watched him rub down the 
fence for several hundred feet, breaking off the insulators. I don't 
know why he does that, when he wants to go visit the cows, he just takes 
a running start and jumps the 5' fence! It is quite a sight to see when 
a 1.5 ton buffalo flies over a fence like a deer! He wants to stay with 
the cows so much that we just let him stay over with them. He's been 
fixed, so he won't be making any beefalo's.

Oh, we got our fence charger at Tractor Supply.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Patricia Lane:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Wayne" <wmc_st at xxiii.com>
>
>
>
>   
>> Patricia Lane wrote:
>>     
>>> fencer.  The fencer that contains the cows, goats, and horses "pulsates".
>>> The one at the house is for 50 miles of fence - hmm, maybe that is why it
>>> literally knocks me off of it.
>>>       
>> 50 miles?!?!  Literally?  Crikey!  How much land do you have?  That's
>> 264,000 linear feet of fence, or a square 66,000' on a side which would
>> enclose exactly 100,000 acres!
>>     
>
> If you think about it, it really isn't that much fence.  I have four rows 
> running the entire perimeter of the farm (10 acres or so).  The main fencer 
> is for more like 100+ miles.  I have stubborn animals that need a reality 
> check when they try to visit the neighbors.  The one at the house is only a 
> single wire running roughly 50 feet.
>
>   
>> BTW, I just noticed the other day you seem to be the first lady on the
>> list;  cool!  Wish there were more mechanically inclined women, or more
>> women willing to embrace the skills they have.  Lisa (that I've since
>> married) demanded years ago that the brakes we needed to replace on her
>> car were "really basic car stuff, right?  Show me how to do them."
>>
>>    -Wayne
>>     
>
> I like Lisa!  I like to know how things work and how to fix them, so  if 
> something happens to my husband I can do it by myself (no his days aren't 
> limited).  Speaking of him, I had to buy him his own old truck just so he 
> wouldn't drive mine anymore!  I've made fun of it at:  www.herhayhauler.com
>
> Patricia 
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Oct  7 19:16:37 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 20:16:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
References: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>

I had a similar experience with a Firestone owned/operated but not 
badged store in Texas. I went in for a 4 wheel alignment and was handed 
a list of things that were highlighted that needed immediate attention, 
along with an estimate of about $700. Some things were not checked, but 
assumed to need replacing because "nobody replaces the xxxx these days, 
and it really should be replaced". They flagged the cabin air filter and 
also said the oil was dirty. It had a new filter about 1 week earlier 
and oil gets dirty with use (about 1000 miles in this case). In all 
fairness, they did say it needed a tie rod end, which it did, but wanted 
over $100 for the part, plus 2 hours to replace it. I bought a new Moog 
tie rod end from the same place they would have gotten it for $42, and 
replaced it myself in less than half an hour. They had no answer for why 
they were using scare tactics like that, but most folks in town 
(population 12,000) now know to not pay much attention to their lists. 
They are the only passenger car tire shop within 25 miles. If you want 
tractor tires, they are available right down the street! I generally go 
to Discount Tire, about 25 miles away, but they sell me what I want and 
don't try to pile on other things that I don't want or need.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake BSHolden at aol.com:
> Yup. Back in the mid '80's I encountered this situation. Geez, take a  
> company vehicle with 40K on it in for a LOF and they call back telling me I  needed 
> new tie rod ends, u-joints and a muffler. 
> Beware that in central Iowa they now carry the Freedom Tire moniker.
>  
> Of course, the local Firestone and Tires+ stores try to pull the same  BS.
>  
> Buyer beware.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> In a message dated 10/7/2007 7:18:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> foxtrapper at aceweb.com writes:
>
> Gal I  knew showed up one night in tears over the safety inspection hit list 
> they  gave her on a car she'd just bought.  Six pages long.  It was so bad  
> it 
> was downright funny.  She needed new tires, new doors, new  windows, new 
> fenders, new shocks, new springs, new radiator, new exhaust,  new lights, new 
> hood, new window cranks, new steering wheel, new gauges,  new seats, new seat 
> belts, new bumpers, new engine, new transmission, new  differential, new 
> waterpump, new alternator, new wipers, new horn, etc,  etc, etc.
>
> After we calmed her down, and spent a long time laughing at  the incredible 
> list Goodyear came up with, we sent her to a friends  shop.  I think she 
> needed a set of shocks, nothing  more.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 19:36:03 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:36:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto? Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
	<470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710071836xf0508bq89fec19ad829bcd8@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Pat Horne <roadsters at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
> I had a similar experience with a Firestone owned/operated but not
> badged store in Texas. I went in for a 4 wheel alignment and was handed
> a list of things that were highlighted that needed immediate attention,
> along with an estimate of about $700. Some things were not checked, but
> assumed to need replacing because "nobody replaces the xxxx these days,
> and it really should be replaced". They flagged the cabin air filter and
> also said the oil was dirty. It had a new filter about 1 week earlier
> and oil gets dirty with use (about 1000 miles in this case). In all
> fairness, they did say it needed a tie rod end, which it did, but wanted
> over $100 for the part, plus 2 hours to replace it. I bought a new Moog
> tie rod end from the same place they would have gotten it for $42, and
> replaced it myself in less than half an hour. They had no answer for why
> they were using scare tactics like that, but most folks in town
> (population 12,000) now know to not pay much attention to their lists.
> They are the only passenger car tire shop within 25 miles. If you want
> tractor tires, they are available right down the street! I generally go
> to Discount Tire, about 25 miles away, but they sell me what I want and
> don't try to pile on other things that I don't want or need.
>

On the other hand, the discount tire around here will put tires on a
car, as long as it's not on fire.  More than once I had a car come in,
with a suspension or steering problem bad enough to make it unsafe to
drive, with brand new  front tires on it.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Oct  7 19:37:42 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:37:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
	<470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <002701c8094b$d204db70$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

>  I generally go 
> to Discount Tire, about 25 miles away, but they sell me what 
> I want and 
> don't try to pile on other things that I don't want or need.

Sure sounds a lot different than the last time I went to Discount Tire.
They tried to refuse to honor the price shown in the paper; then tried to
jack the price up with services I didn't want; then tried to get away with
not doing the spin balancing I did want (and paid for).  The most amusing
part was when they insisted they didn't have any new metal valve stems; but
after I walked down the block and bought some, I saw a full box sitting on
the tire changer !

Randall

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Oct  7 20:46:08 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 21:46:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto?  Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <002701c8094b$d204db70$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
	<470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>
	<002701c8094b$d204db70$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <470999F0.2060508@hornesystemstx.com>

Randall & David,

Interesting. observations. I guess each store has it's own way of doing 
business. I generally know when there is a problem with my vehicles. I 
do my own maintenance, including lube and oil changes. Whenever I am 
working on them I am always on the lookout for anything out of the 
ordinary.

I don't mind having a shop look at things other than what I bring a 
vehicle in for, but really won't put up with a shop try to scare its 
customers into having work done that is not needed.

Thanks for your perspectives.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Randall:
>>  I generally go 
>> to Discount Tire, about 25 miles away, but they sell me what 
>> I want and 
>> don't try to pile on other things that I don't want or need.
>>     
>
> Sure sounds a lot different than the last time I went to Discount Tire.
> They tried to refuse to honor the price shown in the paper; then tried to
> jack the price up with services I didn't want; then tried to get away with
> not doing the spin balancing I did want (and paid for).  The most amusing
> part was when they insisted they didn't have any new metal valve stems; but
> after I walked down the block and bought some, I saw a full box sitting on
> the tire changer !
>
> Randall
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 20:54:26 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:54:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts (Otto? Otto parts?)
In-Reply-To: <470999F0.2060508@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
	<470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>
	<002701c8094b$d204db70$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<470999F0.2060508@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710071954m956750bu94133e406c1d01fc@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Pat Horne <roadsters at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
> Randall & David,
>
> Interesting. observations. I guess each store has it's own way of doing
> business. I generally know when there is a problem with my vehicles. I
> do my own maintenance, including lube and oil changes. Whenever I am
> working on them I am always on the lookout for anything out of the
> ordinary.

I don't think the discount tire here does anything but sell tires and
wheels, which is why the people I was talking about had gone there.
They didn't want to get told there was something else wrong with the
car, even if it meant they'd have the wheel fall off.  I couldn't sell
a set of tires to someone, if I saw that they were worn out in a way
that meant there was likely to be an underlying problem, and they
hadn't fixed it.  Even if it did mean they bought the tires from the
people who fixed the problem.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Oct  8 07:48:05 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:48:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts
In-Reply-To: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071008094805.00ac2b58@pop.east.cox.net>

At 08:25 PM 10/7/2007 EDT, BSHolden at aol.com wrote:

>Yup. Back in the mid '80's I encountered this situation. Geez, take a  
>company vehicle with 40K on it in for a LOF and they call back telling me
I  needed 
>new tie rod ends, u-joints and a muffler. 
>Beware that in central Iowa they now carry the Freedom Tire moniker.
> 
>Of course, the local Firestone and Tires+ stores try to pull the same  BS.

While I agree and have happen to me, some of the things that are being said
here, also keep in mind that part of what they are doing is trying to help
protect the customer.

I take my cars to a local Firestone store for state inspection.  When I pick
it up, it's no unusual for them to give me a 2 page print out of stuff that
is recommended/should? be done.  This is based on the milage of the car and 
what their computer/books saw about the scheduled maintenance.  

I keep a small note book (the type that fits in your shirt pocket) in the
glove box of each car.  Starting at the front of the book, I record every
time I get gas, the date, milage, # gal., cost, and mpg.  Starting at the
back of the book, I keep track of any time I have/do work done on the car.
These records contain, the date, milage, and what was done, ie. 10/03/07
oil & filter, or 9/24/07 ft brake pads.  So at a glance I know what has
been done to the car and when.  So I can look at this list of stuff from
the shop and see that everything has been done.

Also, if I take a car someplace and they suggest that I replace my timing
belt, I can say no thanks it was done 15,000 ago. etc.  You can't blame
a shop for looking to make a buck.  If they don't know what has been done
to the car.

It is the car owner that is responsible for knowing what has been done to
his car.

For those that are tired of getting ripped off by the National chains, all
I can say is: find a good independant shop in your area.  If you don't know
of one, ask every one you know where they take their cars.  You can also
go to Click & Clack's web site: http://www.cartalk.com/.  Under "Actual car
Info" there is a section, "Mechanics Files" 
(http://www.cartalk.com/content/mechx/) where you can look for mechanics
in your area that others have recommended.  This may not be perfect, but it's
a good start.

John




John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Oct  8 07:49:56 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:49:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts
In-Reply-To: <470984F5.9090002@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
  <c5f.199a4ea5.343ad2fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071008094956.00aba6e0@pop.east.cox.net>

Here's an excerpt from an email from a local friend of mine.  We were talking
about this subject quite some time ago.  He worked as a professional mechanic
for about 25 yrs.

- - - - - - - 

John,

This is shameful - some bad apples destroying the whole bunch. What do they
have to lose? Nothing, chain stores have national advertising and no
reputation to maintain. Having worked in a tire hole (Merchant's) as a
manager dealing with walk-in customers, mechanics, and the loads of
paperwork you get stretched pretty thin. So thin you can't check all of the
mechanic's work. I would not sell any recommendations unless I inspected the
car first (the mechanics there hated me). If a car came back and there was
evidence of a rip off there would be hell to pay. I worked for them for two
months. Was a mistake I thought they changed. 

I've also worked the other end as a mechanic for the same chain years ago
and watched a Service Manager pad-up one of my tickets with out even looking
at the car. He recommended new filters, plugs, wires, cap, and rotor when
the problem was that a spark plug wire had just fallen off and needed to be
put back on. I let him go and did not tell him that all that stuff was just
replaced. I wanted him to get caught. I quit that day. I worked for them for
two weeks.

Did I ever tell the story about the broken Honda timing belt that showed-up
in my shop while working for a mom & pop? It had a washed timing cover, old
belt, and an irate customer saying I was a rip-off because her belt broke
and she was insisting that her belt was just replaced by a trusted shop. I
instructed her to have it towed back to that "trusted shop" so they could
fix their misdoings.

You have to give it some thought:
Who has the most to lose by a bad reputation: Mom & Pop garages &
dealerships. Dealerships because old service customers eventually buy new
cars and they don't want them to go away.
Mom & pops don't have an advertising budget.
Getting caught ripping off customers from either of these two and you'll be
packing your iron and exercising the wheels on the bottom of that tool box
while looking for a new job.

So ask yourself would you eat at a restaurant when yours is the only car out
front? If so go to Shoney's at Newtown road in Norfolk @ dinner time.
   When no appointment is necessary and the shop is extensively advertised
chances are the shop has no "real customers".

Another note; Merchant's is part of a big chain: Tire Kingdom & NTB a k a
National Tire and Battery. They decided to keep the local names so customers
would perceive them as small mom & pops.

Chain stores are always looking for new employees also. What you thought
they only ripped off customers.

Take care,

Joe

- - - - - - 

John





John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Mon Oct  8 08:43:10 2007
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:43:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop security
In-Reply-To: <4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>
References: <009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><009e01c8078f$cd475120$4c1e7247@fred8kwiskhcfu><5.2.1.1.0.20071005215004.037197f0@mail.comcast.net><5.2.1.1.0.20071006143242.03724e30@mail.comcast.net><011501c80869$104736f0$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
	<4708ED99.8040706@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F08C5AEAF@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne [mailto:wmc_st at xxiii.com]
> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 7:31 AM
> To: Shop Talk List
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Shop security
>
> Patricia Lane wrote:
> > fencer.  The fencer that contains the cows, goats, and
> horses "pulsates".
> > The one at the house is for 50 miles of fence - hmm, maybe
> that is why
> > it literally knocks me off of it.
>
> 50 miles?!?!  Literally?  Crikey!  How much land do you have?
>  That's 264,000 linear feet of fence, or a square 66,000' on
> a side which would enclose exactly 100,000 acres!

I think that  the manufacturers seems to be a bit optimistic.
I have about 3400 feet of fence plus another 1000 or so of
cross fencing.  Multiply that by 4 strands and you get three
and a third miles of wire.  I have a "little" fencer it only
does 25 miles of wire.  I suppose you could say your mileage
will vary?  :)

Oh ya, I only have 7.5 acres

Stuart.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 08:45:06 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:45:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071008094805.00ac2b58@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20071008144507.XCCE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> You can't blame a shop for looking to make 
> a buck.

I'm sorry, John, I simply disagree.  What you are talking about is fraud,
pure and simple.  It is wrong.  It is illegal.

>  If they don't know what has been done to the car.

If a shop has succeeded in selling you work that doesn't need to be done,
why should they bother doing the work ?  And it's only a small step from
there to not doing work you do need done.  YOU have no way of knowing what
has actually been done, unless you personally inspected the parts before
they were installed, and watched them be installed.

As an extreme example, I was once asked to look at an older Ford that wasn't
running right.  Oil looked like tar, thick layer of dirt on the oil filter,
air filter was so dirty that stuff fell off when I picked it up.  The owner
produced receipts showing she was overcharged for filters and lube job, just
two weeks previously !  And every 3 months for years before that.

> ask every one you know where they take their cars.

I've been trying that approach.  Tried the shop my best friend always uses
(even though they sold him a clutch job when all he needed was new seals in
the slave).  I've only found 4 major mistakes so far, including not
tightening a front wheel bearing nut and leaving the dust cap laying loose
inside the hub cap.  Wish I had inspected the brakes before I took it there
too, as it seems odd that that is the ONLY time I've worn out the front
brakes in less than 10K miles.

> Under 
> "Actual car Info" there is a section, "Mechanics Files" 
> (http://www.cartalk.com/content/mechx/) where you can look 
> for mechanics in your area that others have recommended.  
> This may not be perfect, but it's a good start.

Second place on that list for me installed used clutch parts but charged me
for new.  I know because I tore the clutch back down myself less than 10k
miles later, to fix the vibration they swore was something else (from the
pressure plate fingers being uneven heights).

Randall

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct  8 09:53:00 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:53:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moth larvae in a vacuum cleaner
In-Reply-To: <20071007180140.D2B79187BBF@autox.team.net>
References: <20071007180140.D2B79187BBF@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <013601c809c3$4e4e82e0$eaeb88a0$@net>

Sprinkle moth crystals on the rugs first and then vacuum - This also works
very well on flea's and their eggs - if you keep indoor pets.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Peter Schauss
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 1:01 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Moth larvae in a vacuum cleaner

(I believe that this qualifies as on topic because the machine in question
currently resides in my garage because my wife is afraid to take it back
into the house.)

Yesterday we took some old wool area rugs out of our storage unit and
discovered that they were infested with moth larvae.  One of the rugs was
damaged beyond repair, but the others looked like they were salvageable.  We
vacuumed these until it looked like we had removed all of the visible moth
larvae and changed the dust bag in the vacuum cleaner.  We are going to have
these rugs professionally cleaned.  Now our concern is that there may be
some larvae left alive in the power head and the hose.  What can I spray the
insides of the vacuum cleaner with to kill any surviving larvae?

Thanks,
Peter Schauss
_______________________________________________
rs1121 at earthlink.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Oct  8 10:00:24 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:00:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts
In-Reply-To: <20071008144507.XCCE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071008144507.XCCE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <470A5418.3060901@xxiii.com>

Randall wrote:
>> You can't blame a shop for looking to make 
>> a buck.
> 
> I'm sorry, John, I simply disagree.  What you are talking about is fraud,
> pure and simple.  It is wrong.  It is illegal.

I've gotta agree with Randall on this.  I'm 41;  I've NEVER found a pro' mechanic that wasn't doing something a little shady.  At *best* they just overcharged me.  Worst case, I've had malicious damage done to my car.

Years ago I was a poor 22 year old at my first "real" job.  Was driving a POS Toyota Celica.  It needed a water pump belt one summer, so I bought one myself.  But I lived at an apartment complex that didn't allow wrenching in the parking lot and I never got around to installing it, so a couple months later I went to the small shop around the corner from work.

I suggested to the guy I had a belt they could install if they didn't mind.  He got REAL pissy with me, which I immediately picked up on.  I quickly retracted, saying "I'm not trying to be a cheapskate, I bought it months ago, blah blah"  "...don't want to cause any problems, PLEASE install yours and forget I asked."

He sold & installed a belt all right... and apparently used a 15 foot pry bar to tighten it.  Mo*******er!  The water pump and alternator died or bearing failure within three weeks.

Could I prove the failure on the 140,000 mile car was his fault?  No.

Any doubt in my mind the SOB did it?  Not a bit!

All because I *suggested* denying him the mark up on a belt he wanted $6.50 for.  I'd still like to beat the shit out of him for that.  I hope he's died a slow painful death some time in the last 19 years.

  -Wayne

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Oct  8 10:14:25 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:14:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts
In-Reply-To: <470A5418.3060901@xxiii.com>
References: <20071008144507.XCCE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<470A5418.3060901@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <0JPL009B1P1XTWV0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I think you give this guy too much credit.  He probably would have 
over tightened the belt anyway.  Sometimes it seems that malicious 
intent is the only logical explanation, but don't underestimate plain 
old incompetence!


>I suggested to the guy I had a belt they could install if they 
>didn't mind.  He got REAL pissy with me, which I immediately picked 
>up on.  I quickly retracted, saying "I'm not trying to be a 
>cheapskate, I bought it months ago, blah blah"  "...don't want to 
>cause any problems, PLEASE install yours and forget I asked."
>
>He sold & installed a belt all right... and apparently used a 15 
>foot pry bar to tighten it.  Mo*******er!  The water pump and 
>alternator died or bearing failure within three weeks.
>
>Could I prove the failure on the 140,000 mile car was his fault?  No.
>
>Any doubt in my mind the SOB did it?  Not a bit!
>
>All because I *suggested* denying him the mark up on a belt he 
>wanted $6.50 for.  I'd still like to beat the shit out of him for 
>that.  I hope he's died a slow painful death some time in the last 19 years.

From wolfeb at verizon.net  Mon Oct  8 10:14:27 2007
From: wolfeb at verizon.net (wolfeb at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:14:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chrysler Repair Service
Message-ID: <24269130.9097201191860067710.JavaMail.root@vms062.mailsrvcs.net>

I need to tap your collective wisdom! We have a 2005 Chrysler Pacifica. Purchased used with about 6500 miles. Purchased an extended warranty. The headlight would come on and off. Dealer volunteered a recall (was for Xenon - which we DON'T have, but he said it was covered anyway). After the first try, not only was the headlight not fixed, but now there are multiple OTHER electrical problems! The service manager claims they are not related (BS!). Hasn't cost a penny, but the aggravation and inconvenience is incredible. The last time, we called Chrysler and had them send an electrical expert to the dealership to assist with the troubleshooting. We thought they had finally fixed it, but the problem is back. This will be the SEVENTH TIME back to the dealer. 

I can't do the lemon law because we did not purchase the vehicle new. 

Suggestions? Alternatives?

Thanks,

Bruce

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Oct  8 10:36:41 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:36:41 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts
In-Reply-To: <0JPL009B1P1XTWV0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <20071008144507.XCCE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<470A5418.3060901@xxiii.com> <0JPL009B1P1XTWV0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <470A5C99.2010108@xxiii.com>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> I think you give this guy too much credit.  He probably would have over 
> tightened the belt anyway.  Sometimes it seems that malicious intent is 
> the only logical explanation, but don't underestimate plain old 
> incompetence!

No, I wish, but I'm quire sure it was intentional.  The guy had a BIG bad attitude towards me.  Not sure what set it off, but I wish I'd just taken the car somewhere else.  Maybe he didn't like "dang furuhn' cars" or resented the fact I was a kid working a shirt & tie job (slinging computer code for a huge $12/hr) or he was just that ticked I suggested screwing him out of $1 profit on that belt.

Best I can figure from google maps, it was on Henry or Jefferson Ave in Middletown, Oh.

There's slightly overtightened, but this way way beyond.  Even after the water pump's bearings turned to dust, and the shaft was sticking out at a few degrees relieving some tension, the belt was still stretched like a rubber band.  They had to have one guy with a massive pry bar leaning on it while another tightened the bolts.

  -Wayne

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 10:41:22 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:41:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts
In-Reply-To: <470A5418.3060901@xxiii.com>
References: <20071008144507.XCCE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<470A5418.3060901@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710080941y3c1f398n7d65c79729b855a5@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> Randall wrote:
> >> You can't blame a shop for looking to make
> >> a buck.
> >
> > I'm sorry, John, I simply disagree.  What you are talking about is fraud,
> > pure and simple.  It is wrong.  It is illegal.
>
> I've gotta agree with Randall on this.  I'm 41;  I've NEVER found a pro' mechanic that wasn't doing something a little shady.  At *best* they just overcharged

The shops I've worked in didn't.  We screwed up from time to time, but
we never did anything shady.

There is a difference between what you do on a customer's car and what
you do to your own, though.  On a customer's car, you take a belt off
to replace an alternator, you replace it, unless it's clearly new.
You might do that on your own car, because you know how long that belt
has been there,
and it's easy enough to replace.  The customer, however, will blame
you if the belt breaks in a week, even though it's not your fault.
Yes, that means things get replaced early.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Oct  8 10:43:17 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:43:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chrysler Repair Service
In-Reply-To: <24269130.9097201191860067710.JavaMail.root@vms062.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <24269130.9097201191860067710.JavaMail.root@vms062.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <20071008122306.Y42331@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, wolfeb at verizon.net wrote:
> Suggestions? Alternatives?

    Trade it in on something else, somewhere else.  Either that, or pay 
someone (a lot) to fix it correctly.  Those are really your only options, 
unfortunately.

    I just did this with my Subaru WRX, that I had bought new a couple 
years ago.  Subaru of America (not the dealer(s)) refused to honor their 
alleged warranty*, despite copious evidence** that the engine was screwed 
up, so my only options were to fix the engine myself, or get rid of the 
piece of junk.  I feel bad for whoever the next owner was, and the dealer 
who took it in, but when you buy a used car, you pay your money, and take 
your chances.

--
  David Hillman

* This is not an isolated instance, for all intents and purposes, Subarus 
no longer come with warranties in this country.  To be fair, this policy 
is partly the result of lots of fraud committed by the teenagers whose 
parents gave them Subarus over the past couple years.  'Course, it didn't 
help that something like 50% of their previous-generation Legacies blew 
HGs within warranty ( including mine ).

** http://planet-torque.com/garage/subaru/coolant-small.jpg that's 
coolant, not oil.  It's supposed to look like this -> 
http://planet-torque.com/garage/subaru/coolant-tank.jpg  Compression ( 
their test ) on 2 cylinders in 'rebuild' range, other 2 cylinders were 
1psi above 'rebuild'.  "Engine is fine, sir."  35K miles.

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Oct  8 10:54:01 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:54:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Wholesale Auto Parts/ mechanic incompetence
In-Reply-To: <0JPL009B1P1XTWV0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <20071008144507.XCCE25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<470A5418.3060901@xxiii.com> <0JPL009B1P1XTWV0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <002d01c809cb$d445bb90$7cd132b0$@mele@usermail.com>

<<but don't underestimate plain old incompetence!>>

Bought my first BMW from a guy who did the same thing himself (hence, not a
great home mechanic); the impeller was hitting on the housing..making a bad
noise.  He diagnosed a "bad rod bearing"...I pushed it home, changed the
water pump, and was on my way...

From bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com  Mon Oct  8 11:02:04 2007
From: bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com (Brian Warrick)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:02:04 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
Message-ID: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E057F@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>

I have recently cut down some trees that will be in the way of my future
shop.  I was able to cut them low enough that I can mow across them
without any problem.  However, I would like to get them started rotting
so when I get around to building the shop (~5 years or so) that they
will come out easily.  I have tried the stuff at Home Depot and Lowes
that is supposed to rot the stumps on some others I have, but it did not
seem to work too well.  Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Brian

From ericm at lne.com  Mon Oct  8 11:57:41 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:57:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
In-Reply-To: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E057F@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E057F@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <20071008175741.GA7125@slack.lne.com>

Paint the tops of the stumps with straight Roundup
to make sure that they're really 100% dead.   Otherwise
they can live quite a while.  That'll slow their decay.

Eric


On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 11:02:04AM -0600, Brian Warrick wrote:
> I have recently cut down some trees that will be in the way of my future
> shop.  I was able to cut them low enough that I can mow across them
> without any problem.  However, I would like to get them started rotting
> so when I get around to building the shop (~5 years or so) that they
> will come out easily.  I have tried the stuff at Home Depot and Lowes
> that is supposed to rot the stumps on some others I have, but it did not
> seem to work too well.  Any other suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Brian
> _______________________________________________
> ericm at lne.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From nases at verizon.net  Mon Oct  8 12:26:51 2007
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:26:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
Message-ID: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>

I want to buy a trailer big enough to tow an Austin Healey Sprite.  My tow
vehicle is a 04 Toyota Tacoma with the bigger six  and a tow package.
 
I want to keep it on the lighter side so an open trailer is fine.  I will be
towing it 1200 miles or so next year.  
 
I'm shopping for a used one but really don't know what to look at.  The
Sprite is no more that 1500 lbs I think.
 
Will I need a trailer with brakes or any other stuff to keep it safe?
 
Thanks.
 

Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa

From bspidell at comcast.net  Mon Oct  8 12:41:58 2007
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:41:58 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
Message-ID: <470A79F6.7050703@comcast.net>

Hi Phil,


Can't offer specifics as I'm no expert on trailers, but have to offer up 
the following
because of the timing:

http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/420285.html

I wouldn't scrimp on safety.


bs



Phil Nase wrote:
> I want to buy a trailer big enough to tow an Austin Healey Sprite.  My tow
> vehicle is a 04 Toyota Tacoma with the bigger six  and a tow package.
>  
> I want to keep it on the lighter side so an open trailer is fine.  I will be
> towing it 1200 miles or so next year.  
>  
> I'm shopping for a used one but really don't know what to look at.  The
> Sprite is no more that 1500 lbs I think.
>  
> Will I need a trailer with brakes or any other stuff to keep it safe?
>  
> Thanks.
>  
>
> Phil Nase
>   
***************************************************************
Bob Spidell         San Jose, CA        bspidell at comcast.net
'67 Austin-Healey 3000             '56 Austin-Healey 100M
***************************************************************

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 12:51:46 2007
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:51:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071008144456.028d8ca8@pop.nycap.rr.com>

1500 pounds doesn't seem like much for a car,

but added to a trailer it will be over a ton, dragging and pushing behind you.

you will be happy to have brakes on the trailer,  your state may even 
require them, the kind with the master cylinder on the tongue 
are  nice, but electric ones work too.

  get real size tires; 14's or even  better 15's

buy a spare wheel and  tire.

If you get a used one, replace all the lighting and wires, unless 
they are perfect,

and most important : NEVER  have  your wife direct you, while you back up.

Skip

>I'm shopping for a used one but really don't know what to look at.  The
>Sprite is no more that 1500 lbs I think.
>
>Will I need a trailer with brakes or any other stuff to keep it safe?
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>Phil Nase
>Quakertown, PA

From Gt6steve at aol.com  Mon Oct  8 12:53:28 2007
From: Gt6steve at aol.com (Gt6steve at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:53:28 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
Message-ID: <c5e.1f4d1bfc.343bd6a8@aol.com>

I know you're seeking minimal weight but I'm a huge believer in tandem axles. 
 Get's you out of so much trouble...



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 12:56:57 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:56:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071008144456.028d8ca8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20071008144456.028d8ca8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710081156y65a742deh798709ecd7ba6468@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> 1500 pounds doesn't seem like much for a car,
>
A sprite isn't much of a car!

The rest of what Skip said is right.  You want brakes, even if they're
not required.  (3000 lbs is a typical limit for needing brakes, but it
varies from state to state.)
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Oct  8 13:05:12 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:05:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 02:26 PM 10/8/2007 -0400, Phil Nase wrote:

>I want to buy a trailer big enough to tow an Austin Healey Sprite....

Phil,

I'd suggest that you get a tandom wheel trailer and electric brakes.

I've towed MGBs and VWs on a single axle trailer before, and had it take off 
on me.  It will start swaying back and forth.  When this happens, you CAN'T 
TOUCH THE BRAKES.  All you can do is floor it and pull the trailer back 
streight.  Had it happen once with an MGB and once with a VW.  Very scary!!!!!

Electric brakes are a great help.  If this happens, you simply hit the 
brake controller in the tow vechile and apply the trailer brakes.  That will
pull the trailer back in line.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 13:33:00 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:33:00 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
In-Reply-To: <20071008175741.GA7125@slack.lne.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E057F@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<20071008175741.GA7125@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360710081233w4d908f95xc28b2f80b97eed56@mail.gmail.com>

*Good advise on making sure the stump is dead but use a brush & tree killer
herbicide.  "Roundup" is more for grass.*
**
*A couple of things I'm going to try to speed rotting are based on ol' timer
advise:*
**
*1. After the stump IS dead, keep the surface saturated with a high nitrogen
fertilizer solution.*
**
*2. Same deal,but use any form of sugar or molasses.*
**
*Both are based on accelerating decomposition and both require moisture to
work . . I thought about putting the product in some sort of woven plastic
bag in contact with the stump and keeping the sack wet.  Let's try it.*
*Tony*

**



On 10/8/07, ericm at lne.com <ericm at lne.com> wrote:
>
> Paint the tops of the stumps with straight Roundup
> to make sure that they're really 100% dead.   Otherwise
> they can live quite a while.  That'll slow their decay.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Oct  8 13:34:25 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:34:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

John T. Blair wrote:
>
> I'd suggest that you get a tandem wheel trailer and
> electric brakes.
>
> I've towed MGBs and VWs on a single axle trailer before,
> and had it take off on me.  It will start swaying back
> and forth.

I'll second the tandem wheel recommendation.

I've managed to tow on a single axle trailer without brakes,
but it did start swaying once or twice on me when I was
heading down hill.  Not pleasant at all.  I wished I had
the electric brakes.

But I will heartily recommend a dual axle.  Nothing like
experiencing a blow out of a tire on a loaded single axle
trailer at 65 MPH on the freeway in heavy traffic to
convince me to make sure that my next car trailer will
be dual axle...  =8-O

By the way, I was limited to the single axle trailer by
the towing limits of the vehicle I had to tow it with
at the time.  My truck can handle a heavier trailer now...

Tim Mullen

From BSHolden at aol.com  Mon Oct  8 13:44:01 2007
From: BSHolden at aol.com (BSHolden at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:44:01 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
Message-ID: <cac.1b510285.343be281@aol.com>

As for brakes; Electrically actuated discs are the brakes of choice,  
followed by electric drums, then "surge" actuated brakes. Electric discs are  capable 
of being used in cases where you need braking power while backing  downhill. 
The other two setups are worthless in such a situation. Yeah, you  probably 
won't be finding yourself baking downhill all that much but just one  instance 
where the trailer begins dragging the tow vehicle downhill will tend to  create 
lasting memories.
Tandem axle trailers are much more stable and add a degree of redundancy  
when it comes to having a blown tire. Oh, and look for brakes on both  axles.
Axles: I've had trailers with leaf springs and trailers with Torflex  
suspension. 
Torflex is the way to go. Leaf springs require hangers. Those hangers  
contain plastic bushings which last for maybe 5K miles before wearing out. Plus  the 
torflex axle provides truly independent suspension for the trailer. And  
don't succumb to the temptation to go with over rated spring rates. For your use  
a pair of 2,000 pound axles will do the trick, while a pair of axles rated at  
5,000 pounds each are definite overkill and will do nothing for you other 
than  to effectively act as solid axles.
Detachable fenders are also nice to have, at least for a closed car though  I 
suppose not so critical for a convertible.
LED lights are another plus as they work well and last a long time.
The condition of the wiring will also provide a clue as to the condition of  
the rest of the trailer. And beware of loose wheel bearings. In fact, if I was 
 buying used those bearings would be the first thing I would look at and 
probably  re-pack just because loosing a trailer wheel is a real PITA.
 
Bart
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 10/8/2007 1:27:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
nases at verizon.net writes:

I want  to buy a trailer big enough to tow an Austin Healey Sprite.  My  tow
vehicle is a 04 Toyota Tacoma with the bigger six  and a tow  package.

I want to keep it on the lighter side so an open trailer is  fine.  I will be
towing it 1200 miles or so next year.   

I'm shopping for a used one but really don't know what to look  at.  The
Sprite is no more that 1500 lbs I think.

Will I need a  trailer with brakes or any other stuff to keep it  safe?







************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Oct  8 14:04:57 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:04:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20071008154141.M62574@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, John T. Blair wrote:
> I'd suggest that you get a tandom wheel trailer and electric brakes.

    If it comes down to one or t'other, for price or whatever reason, I'd 
go with the un-braked dual axle.  Brakes are great, but really unnecessary 
for the rig you're talking about.  I've towed my 2200 pound racecar on an 
18' steel open trailer ( ~2 tons total ) with a variety of vehicles; a 
Ford Ranger, an '02 F150, an '03 half-ton Silverado, a fullsize GMC van, 
and a huge '07 3/4 ton Diesel Silverado.  Even the Ranger had no problems, 
despite the fact that the trailer's brakes are broke, and always have 
been ( not my trailer ).  The rest barely knew it was back there.

    And we're ice-racers, so by definition we do stupid things like tow it 
over to (hilly) Western Michigan in the dead of winter, at the butt-crack 
of dawn before the plows are out.  We once had to pull-over in the middle 
of a lake-effect blizzard because we couldn't see much past the hood... 
but keeping the trailer behind has never been an issue, even on snowy 
off-ramps, and even boat-ramps for that matter.

    That Tacoma is rated to 5,000 pounds*, so I wouldn't hesitate to tow a 
Sprite on an open trailer, brakes or not.  But I'd get brakes if I could, 
obviously.

--
  David Hillman

* TrailerLife's tow rating guides are infinitely useful if you tow ->
http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 14:10:02 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:10:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
Message-ID: <20071008201002.MQBF2495.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

> I'm shopping for a used one but really don't know what to 
> look at.  The Sprite is no more that 1500 lbs I think.
>  
> Will I need a trailer with brakes or any other stuff to keep it safe?

Phil, you'll get opinions all over the map on those questions.  Towing a
trailer is never as safe as not towing, so extra caution is always
necessary.

IMO, if you can keep the combined trailer/car weight below 3000 pounds (or
better yet 2500), then trailer brakes aren't really necessary.  I've towed
many thousands of miles that way, even through mountains, and never been
unhappy I didn't have trailer brakes.

But your stopping distance will be longer even with trailer brakes, and not
having them makes it longer yet.  Modified driving habits (especially extra
following distance and slowing down when someone cuts in front of you) can
compensate for that, but for maximum safety you probably should have brakes
of some sort on the trailer.  ABS would be even better but I've never seen
it offered on a trailer <G>

If you do opt for trailer brakes, I would suggest electric brakes.  "Surge"
brakes work OK if they are properly maintained and operated, but electric
brakes (controlled by the tow vehicle) give you better control, IMO.
Especially backing up.

Then there is the argument about one axle or two ... again if you can keep
the weight down, then IMO a single axle will do.  But if cost is no object,
two axles is probably better (except for backing up).

Check the laws in your state.  As I recall, CA requires brakes over 3500 lbs
but allows a single axle to 35,000 or something like that.

Randall

From drew at pixar.com  Mon Oct  8 14:34:39 2007
From: drew at pixar.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:34:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20071008201002.MQBF2495.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071008201002.MQBF2495.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <470A945F.7000401@pixar.com>

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is tongue weight.
Having insufficient tongue weight is a really bad thing.
I towed a 1400 lb. race car on a single axle trailer behind
a Ford extended length Aerostar for years and never had a
problem with tracking. The van did have the factory tow
package but I think that all that got you was limited slip
and beefed up electrics at the back end. I will admit that
dual axle and brakes are probably good but it sounded like
the 1200 mile trip was a one shot deal. Just take it easy.

Drew

>> I'm shopping for a used one but really don't know what to 
>> look at.  The Sprite is no more that 1500 lbs I think.
>>  
>> Will I need a trailer with brakes or any other stuff to keep it safe?


-- 
Drew Rogge
drew at pixar.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Oct  8 14:44:05 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:44:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <0JPM00AO61JM4VM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Someone once explained to me that the biggest advantage of electric 
brakes is that the tow vehicle must have an electric brake controller 
installed in it.  Yes, they did say ADVANTAGE.  You see, I'm sorry, 
but you can't borrow my trailer because your vehicle does not have an 
electric brake controller.  :-)  

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Oct  8 16:07:32 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:07:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
Message-ID: <00cd01c809f7$b0cc4bd0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

Lots of good advice about tandem axles, brakes, etc. Assuming 
adulthood I'll let you make up your mind about what you need.

My advice is to keep in mind that the inside track of a Spridget is, 
well, not much. IME, many open car trailers will not accept a Spridget 
for that reason. Take a tape measure with you or consider a flat bed 
trailer. It would seem a mid-size "landscape" trailer would be a 
viable option for trailering a Sprite.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Nase"

>I want to buy a trailer big enough to tow an Austin Healey Sprite. 

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Oct  8 16:11:14 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:11:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E057F@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
Message-ID: <00e201c809f8$2e5263f0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

Did you drill some holes into the tree stumps? That will hold the 
chemicals and help keep said chemicals wet.

Have you considered renting a 'stump grinder'? One can get rid of a 
lot of tree stumps (well, how big of a diameter are we discussing?) 
for a half-day's rental fee.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Warrick"

>I have recently cut down some trees that will be in the way of my 
>future
> shop.  I was able to cut them low enough that I can mow across them
> without any problem.  However, I would like to get them started 
> rotting
> so when I get around to building the shop (~5 years or so) that they
> will come out easily.  I have tried the stuff at Home Depot and 
> Lowes
> that is supposed to rot the stumps on some others I have, but it did 
> not
> seem to work too well.  Any other suggestions?

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Oct  8 15:19:01 2007
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:19:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E057F@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<00e201c809f8$2e5263f0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <008001c809f0$d948d850$0202fea9@behavioral.com>

Or check out how much it will cost to have a "stump grinder" do the job. My initial reaction to "$125 per hour/ time off the trailer 
to time on the trailer" was "a lot". However his 90hp diesel self propelled grinder did more in 45 minutes than I would care to do 
in a day with a rental. Not as much fun to watch as it might have been to operate, but still a pretty good deal.

On the other hand, you do have 5 years to wait so maybe watching stumps rot might be the better long term solution.

Arvid

From: "Eric J Russell" <ejrussell at mebtel.net>

> Have you considered renting a 'stump grinder'? One can get rid of a
> lot of tree stumps (well, how big of a diameter are we discussing?)
> for a half-day's rental fee.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Oct  8 15:27:18 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:27:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <0JPM00AO61JM4VM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<0JPM00AO61JM4VM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <20071008171836.M62574@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Steven Trovato wrote:
> Someone once explained to me that the biggest advantage of electric
> brakes is that the tow vehicle must have an electric brake controller
> installed in it.  Yes, they did say ADVANTAGE.  You see, I'm sorry,
> but you can't borrow my trailer because your vehicle does not have an
> electric brake controller.  :-)

    I don't own a car hauler, so I have to borrow... but my F150 does have 
a Prodigy in it, and a 9200 pound rating, so I can borrow _almost_ 
anything.  This will not deter the determined borrower ;)

    Eric warned about the dangers of open trailers, wrt to the track of the 
Sprite.  Not sure about everyone else, but I meant open trailer versus 
enclosed ( box ).  Although, that said, I have another warning from 
personal experience.  If your cargo has small tires, like the 175/65-14s 
on our racecar, be very careful about using ladder-type ramps!  We have to 
the run the wheels of the car up the rails of the ramps, or it will fall 
in.  We got it stuck half-way up the ramps last year, and let me tell you, 
that was not fun.

--
  David Hillman

From bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com  Mon Oct  8 15:36:10 2007
From: bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com (Brian Warrick)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:36:10 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
In-Reply-To: <008001c809f0$d948d850$0202fea9@behavioral.com>
References: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E057F@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>
	<00e201c809f8$2e5263f0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
	<008001c809f0$d948d850$0202fea9@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A6979276847E05D7@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>

On the ones I already tried to "rot" out, I did drill a series of holes
with a 1" spade bit and 3/4" drill.

These particular stumps are approx 12" diameter.

I have it already flush cut so I can just mow over it.  I am just
looking for suggestions of things to make it rot faster.  I figure that
when the shop gets built that there will be a backhoe there anyway and
if I have accelerated the rotting process, it should pop right out.  I
will drill the holes in these as well.

I hadn't thought of making sure it was totally dead.  The stumps do seem
to live for a couple of years after cutting off the rest of the tree.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Brian

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Oct  8 16:02:26 2007
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:02:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
In-Reply-To: <20071008175741.GA7125@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c809f6$ea1293f0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

If the roots don't go under your shop there is an alternative.....take an ax
and chop a dish in the stump and fill it with charcoal. As the depression
enlarges add more charcoal. Just fire it up every time you work in the shop.
Eventually, it will start burning the roots under ground. Quit when it gets
as low as you want. If you want to make it happen faster, get out the leaf
blower and really get it burning.  It might take months, but it is easier
and cheaper than getting a guy with a stump cutter

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of ericm at lne.com
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 1:58 PM
To: Brian Warrick
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot


Paint the tops of the stumps with straight Roundup
to make sure that they're really 100% dead.   Otherwise
they can live quite a while.  That'll slow their decay.

Eric


On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 11:02:04AM -0600, Brian Warrick wrote:
> I have recently cut down some trees that will be in the way of my
> future shop.  I was able to cut them low enough that I can mow across
> them without any problem.  However, I would like to get them started
> rotting so when I get around to building the shop (~5 years or so)
> that they will come out easily.  I have tried the stuff at Home Depot
> and Lowes that is supposed to rot the stumps on some others I have,
> but it did not seem to work too well.  Any other suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brian
> _______________________________________________
> ericm at lne.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
_______________________________________________
gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From mikey at b2systems.com  Mon Oct  8 17:11:07 2007
From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:11:07 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <00cd01c809f7$b0cc4bd0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<00cd01c809f7$b0cc4bd0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071008155520.05b8ad98@b2systems.com>

    Good advice there !  My 1934 Singer is a bit narrow between the 
wheels and its first time on a trailer required a trip to the local 
lumber yard for some 1/2 plywood and lots of rope to make it fit on 
the trailer.  This was out in yahoo-land and nearest store was about 
40 miles from where I purchasing the car, they did not have 3/4ply so 
I got 1/2" and some nails, got back to the guys house and oops (or 
more like DUH) you can't nail that plywood to the METAL trailer and 
it was not my trailer so I was not about to drill holes into it, duct 
tape and rope got the plywood more or less stable and only had to 
stop twice on the way home to re-align the plywood under the wheels.

   I learned lots of things on that trip besides how to get a car 
onto a trailer that it does not fit.  1. tongue weight is important 
and that silly little Singer is a extremely light weight car (so is 
your Spridget).  2. Single axle trailers suck even worse than duals 
when you don't have the proper tongue weight.  3. Every other driver 
on the road will see you are hauling a trailer without brakes and cut 
you off purposely because they know you have doubled your braking 
distance and want to scare you.

  I went out and bought a trailer that next weekend.

  Dual axle with electric brakes and oh yeah with wider than normal 
ramps so that it fit my little car :)

   Depending on your model car, there are some cool toys for that 
brake adapter in your truck, I purchased from GMC a circuit breaker 
that fits where the fuse would go, rather handy when you forget to 
disconnect your friends boat trailer and pop the fuse at dark, just 
lift the hood and push the little reset button, I think it cost $30 
from GMC but got me home with lights.

  Last item is, if it is a one time 1,200 mile haul, U-Haul will save 
the storage hassles.

         mike

At 03:07 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote:
>Lots of good advice about tandem axles, brakes, etc. Assuming
>adulthood I'll let you make up your mind about what you need.
>
>My advice is to keep in mind that the inside track of a Spridget is,
>well, not much. IME, many open car trailers will not accept a Spridget
>for that reason. Take a tape measure with you or consider a flat bed
>trailer. It would seem a mid-size "landscape" trailer would be a
>viable option for trailering a Sprite.
>
>Eric Russell
>Mebane, NC
>http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Rambour
Bug Writer err...Programmer
       mikey at b2systems.com
**********************************************************************
If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car,
then take a look at   http://www.singercars.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Oct  8 17:29:05 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 19:29:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20071008171836.M62574@itonami.pair.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<0JPM00AO61JM4VM0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<20071008171836.M62574@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <0JPM0004895AZT31@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

At 05:27 PM 10/8/2007, David Hillman wrote:
>I don't own a car hauler, so I have to borrow... but my F150 does have
>a Prodigy in it, and a 9200 pound rating, so I can borrow _almost_
>anything.  This will not deter the determined borrower ;)

Well then, I suppose I'm relieved to see that you don't live near me.  :-)

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Oct  8 17:35:10 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 19:35:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071008155520.05b8ad98@b2systems.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<00cd01c809f7$b0cc4bd0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071008155520.05b8ad98@b2systems.com>
Message-ID: <0JPM00E9W9FAKCL0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Renting a car trailer seems to be a major hassle.  They have to 
decide if they will rent you a trailer without renting you a truck to 
tow it with.  They have to declare your tow vehicle to be 
worthy.  They have to declare the vehicle to be towed to be 
worthy.  Then they have to actually have one available to rent.  Note 
that reserving a trailer well in advance has absolutely no effect on 
this.  They just tell you that some other guy didn't bring it 
back.  Nothing we can do.

At 07:11 PM 10/8/2007, Mike Rambour wrote:
>   Last item is, if it is a one time 1,200 mile haul, U-Haul will save
>the storage hassles.

From chad at linuxeg.com  Mon Oct  8 17:51:50 2007
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 19:51:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <0JPM00E9W9FAKCL0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<00cd01c809f7$b0cc4bd0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071008155520.05b8ad98@b2systems.com>
	<0JPM00E9W9FAKCL0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <470AC296.2030202@linuxeg.com>

If you are planning on driving the car onto the trailer verify
you will be able to open the doors. I lowered my car to the
point the doors hit the fenders and had to block up the front
and add air shocks to the rear plus a 2x8 on the trailer to allow
enough clearence.  Of course your car is "topless" so this may
not apply.

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Oct  8 18:55:39 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 00:55:39 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
Message-ID: <100920070055.1280.470AD18B000E6E2300000500220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I'll second this--I've tried on maybe five different occasions to rent a car trailer from uhaul.  have yet to be successful, for the reasons steven mentioned.  the biggest shocker was they they didn't like the car I said I was going to tow on the trailer.  lie if you have to.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>
> Renting a car trailer seems to be a major hassle.  They have to 
> decide if they will rent you a trailer without renting you a truck to 
> tow it with.  They have to declare your tow vehicle to be 
> worthy.  They have to declare the vehicle to be towed to be 
> worthy.  Then they have to actually have one available to rent.  Note 
> that reserving a trailer well in advance has absolutely no effect on 
> this.  They just tell you that some other guy didn't bring it 
> back.  Nothing we can do.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 19:03:09 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:03:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <100920070055.1280.470AD18B000E6E2300000500220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <100920070055.1280.470AD18B000E6E2300000500220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710081803n1e2b7973w530098ce546097e1@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, scott.hall at comcast.net <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> I'll second this--I've tried on maybe five different occasions to rent a car trailer from uhaul.  have yet to be successful, for the reasons steven mentioned.  the biggest shocker was they they didn't like the car I said I was going to tow on the trailer.  lie if you have to.
>
>  -

I got told the truck I had -- one of their 26' box trucks -- couldn't
pull my Land-Rover.  When I told them I was going to haul a Jeep
instead, they didn't have any problems.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Oct  8 19:19:50 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 01:19:50 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Chrysler Repair Service
Message-ID: <100920070119.23197.470AD736000BE23B00005A9D220702105304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

sell it.  it's a chrysler, the electrics are always going to be flaky.  everybody I know with a chrysler minivan have stories about the wipers coming on on their own, the radio changing channels by itself, the engine cutting out (then catching fire).  dump it quick.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: <wolfeb at verizon.net>
> I need to tap your collective wisdom! We have a 2005 Chrysler Pacifica. 
> Purchased used with about 6500 miles. Purchased an extended warranty. The 
> headlight would come on and off. Dealer volunteered a recall (was for Xenon - 
> which we DON'T have, but he said it was covered anyway). After the first try, 
> not only was the headlight not fixed, but now there are multiple OTHER 
> electrical problems! The service manager claims they are not related (BS!). 
> Hasn't cost a penny, but the aggravation and inconvenience is incredible. The 
> last time, we called Chrysler and had them send an electrical expert to the 
> dealership to assist with the troubleshooting. We thought they had finally fixed 
> it, but the problem is back. This will be the SEVENTH TIME back to the dealer. 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 19:29:22 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:29:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <100920070055.1280.470AD18B000E6E2300000500220702157304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071009012922.KYXH660.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> I'll second this--I've tried on maybe five different 
> occasions to rent a car trailer from uhaul.

Strange, I got one just a few months ago.  Only hassle I had was because
their database said my Roadmaster wagon weighed less than the owner's manual
says.  After I blustered a bit, he had me initial a form that said "not
recommended" and gave me the trailer.

But they likely are a bit sensitive about enforcing their rule that the tow
vehicle has to outweigh the trailer & load.  Several news sources (including
the LA Times) have been beating on them about stupid people that inure and
kill themselves with mis-loaded rented trailers.

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct  8 21:17:46 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 20:17:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
In-Reply-To: <20071008175741.GA7125@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <969729.75863.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

While we're on the subject:  Does anyone know what the
shelf live of an opened bottle of Roundup is?

Doug


--- ericm at lne.com wrote:

> Paint the tops of the stumps with straight Roundup
> to make sure that they're really 100% dead.  
> Otherwise
> they can live quite a while.  That'll slow their
> decay.
> 
> Eric

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 21:46:37 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:46:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
In-Reply-To: <969729.75863.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20071008175741.GA7125@slack.lne.com>
	<969729.75863.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710082046u42e1260fv2c54bc4af91d3f4d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> While we're on the subject:  Does anyone know what the
> shelf live of an opened bottle of Roundup is?

The MSDS I have says "at least 5 years".
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Mon Oct  8 21:58:06 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:58:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to get tree stumps to rot
In-Reply-To: <969729.75863.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20071008175741.GA7125@slack.lne.com>
	<969729.75863.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003001c80a28$99b429f0$6501a8c0@proteus457>

I've got a bottle that's about three years old and it still seems to work
fine.

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Braun
> 
> While we're on the subject:  Does anyone know what the
> shelf live of an opened bottle of Roundup is?
> 
> Doug

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Mon Oct  8 22:31:35 2007
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:31:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
	bulkhead
Message-ID: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>

I'm apparently not using the correct terminology because I've
spent well over an hour trying to find the following (with no success):

What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps in a larger size
than what I need now.  I remember seeing aircraft type connections when
an APU could be connected to an aircraft by simply uncovering an opening
and inserting a two pronged (plus and minus) cable fitting from the APU
to the airframe.  I'm looking for something similar but only needing to 
handle
12V, 70amp and 8ga wire.  I want to connect my HD car trailer battery to my
electric winch (enclosed trailer and the battery is inside the front 
cabinets and
difficult to reach) thru the cabinet face.  Inside the cabinet the battery 
will always
be hooked to the bulkhead fitting.  When I want to use the winch, I simply
attach it to the pin restraint in the floor and plug the cable into the 
receptacle fitting
at the bulkhead.

Hope this makes sense.

Any suggestions out there?

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA 

From cak at dimebank.com  Mon Oct  8 22:40:23 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
Message-ID: <200710090440.l994eNXG021253@moose.dimebank.com>

These things are called Anderson PowerPoles by brand, and
auxiliary battery connectors by use.

Places like Pegasus and Racer Wholesale have them for connecting
offboard batteries in formula cars.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=BATTCONNECT

From koblinger at verizon.net  Mon Oct  8 22:42:02 2007
From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:42:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
In-Reply-To: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
Message-ID: <470B069A.2090308@verizon.net>

I can picture exactly what you mean but I haven't a clue what it is 
called either. Big help that is, eh. But I do recall that when I worked 
in a warehouse in my college days those plugs were used to connect the 
electric forklifts to the chargers. So maybe a forklift parts house 
could have it.

Cheers,
Kurt Oblinger



Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:

>I'm apparently not using the correct terminology because I've
>spent well over an hour trying to find the following (with no success):
>
>What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps in a larger size
>than what I need now.  I remember seeing aircraft type connections when
>an APU could be connected to an aircraft by simply uncovering an opening
>and inserting a two pronged (plus and minus) cable fitting from the APU
>to the airframe.  I'm looking for something similar but only needing to 
>handle
>12V, 70amp and 8ga wire.  I want to connect my HD car trailer battery to my
>electric winch (enclosed trailer and the battery is inside the front 
>cabinets and
>difficult to reach) thru the cabinet face.  Inside the cabinet the battery 
>will always
>be hooked to the bulkhead fitting.  When I want to use the winch, I simply
>attach it to the pin restraint in the floor and plug the cable into the 
>receptacle fitting
>at the bulkhead.
>
>Hope this makes sense.
>
>Any suggestions out there?
>
>Steve Hammatt
>Mount Vernon WA USA 
>_______________________________________________
>koblinger at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From chad at linuxeg.com  Mon Oct  8 22:46:20 2007
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 00:46:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
In-Reply-To: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
Message-ID: <470B079C.7030300@linuxeg.com>

try Anderson Power Products at
http://www.andersonpower.com/products/multipole-sb.html
or from their home page select "products", "multipole", "SB".
chad


Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:

>I'm apparently not using the correct terminology because I've
>spent well over an hour trying to find the following (with no success):
>
>What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps in a larger size
>than what I need now.  I remember seeing aircraft type connections when
>an APU could be connected to an aircraft by simply uncovering an opening
>and inserting a two pronged (plus and minus) cable fitting from the APU
>to the airframe.  I'm looking for something similar but only needing to 
>handle

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct  8 23:09:01 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Roundup
In-Reply-To: <003001c80a28$99b429f0$6501a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <283657.51850.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the replies about Roundup.  My bottle is
probably 2.5 years old, and it seems to stun more than
kill.  I can't say if it has gotten weak or if the
weeds have gotten hardier...

Doug

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Mon Oct  8 23:34:57 2007
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:34:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
	<470B079C.7030300@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <002001c80a36$214152a0$461610ac@85081388H>

Thanks to everyone for the Anderson suggestion; however
it appears to me that everything Anderson offers is for
cable - to - cable
while I want to plug a cable fitting into a bulkhead receptacle.
The suggestion regarding forklift recharging is excellent and I'll
try to find that product now.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chadwick E. Labno" <chad at linuxeg.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Cc: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a 
bulkhead


> try Anderson Power Products at
> http://www.andersonpower.com/products/multipole-sb.html
> or from their home page select "products", "multipole", "SB".
> chad
>
>
> Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
>
>>I'm apparently not using the correct terminology because I've
>>spent well over an hour trying to find the following (with no success):
>>
>>What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps in a larger size
>>than what I need now.  I remember seeing aircraft type connections when
>>an APU could be connected to an aircraft by simply uncovering an opening
>>and inserting a two pronged (plus and minus) cable fitting from the APU
>>to the airframe.  I'm looking for something similar but only needing to 
>>handle

From cak at dimebank.com  Tue Oct  9 00:05:29 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:05:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
	bulkhead
Message-ID: <200710090605.l9965T9t009233@moose.dimebank.com>

The problem with the Anderson products is that they don't really
make a bulkhead fitting! They make some hokey plates that can
be used to mount their normal connectors to a bulkhead. 

Take a look at 

http://www.powerwerx.com/category.asp?CtgID=1679

to see what I mean.

They make chassis mounts for the smaller ones

http://www.powerwerx.com/category.asp?CtgID=1681

but it sounds like you need more than 45A.

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Oct  9 02:52:50 2007
From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:52:50 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
In-Reply-To: <002001c80a36$214152a0$461610ac@85081388H>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
	<470B079C.7030300@linuxeg.com>
	<002001c80a36$214152a0$461610ac@85081388H>
Message-ID: <470B4162.4050808@landform.co.uk>

Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for the Anderson suggestion; however
> it appears to me that everything Anderson offers is for
> cable - to - cable
> while I want to plug a cable fitting into a bulkhead receptacle.
> The suggestion regarding forklift recharging is excellent and I'll
> try to find that product now.
>   
Would something like this do the job?

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_871590_-1_10367

Plenty big enough on the cable size.

Nick Brearley

From dondenning at classicnet.net  Tue Oct  9 03:26:36 2007
From: dondenning at classicnet.net (Don Denning)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 04:26:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H><470B079C.7030300@linuxeg.com><002001c80a36$214152a0$461610ac@85081388H>
	<470B4162.4050808@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <003001c80a56$7daf8820$203d2018@LivingRoom>

Golf carts use this type of fitting for charging batteries.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Brearley" <nick at landform.co.uk>
To: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
Cc: <chad at LinuxEG.com>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a 
bulkhead


> Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
>> Thanks to everyone for the Anderson suggestion; however
>> it appears to me that everything Anderson offers is for
>> cable - to - cable
>> while I want to plug a cable fitting into a bulkhead receptacle.
>> The suggestion regarding forklift recharging is excellent and I'll
>> try to find that product now.
>>
> Would something like this do the job?
>
> http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_871590_-1_10367
>
> Plenty big enough on the cable size.
>
> Nick Brearley
> _______________________________________________
> dondenning at classicnet.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 04:54:08 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 03:54:08 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <20071009105408.KFZU25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

Quoth Mullen, Tim
> Nothing like 
> experiencing a blow out of a tire on a loaded single axle 
> trailer at 65 MPH on the freeway in heavy traffic

Just curious, Tim, what happened ?  I've had blowouts several times now on
single-axle trailers with very little drama.  Happened to Dad once when I
was a teenager and I had to tell him about the tire smoke chasing us down
the highway.  Last time it happened to me, the biggest drama was whether my
out-weighed tow vehicle had enough traction to pull the trailer through the
gravel median to a safe place to change it.

Falls into the same category as all those people who managed to flip their
Ford Explorers when the Firestones gave out.  I just don't understand the
problem.

Randall

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Tue Oct  9 05:07:56 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:07:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
References: <20071009105408.KFZU25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <001901c80a64$a5858ee0$7029c40a@mde.state.md.us>

That's about matched my experiences with single axle trailers blowing tires. 
As well tow dollies blowing a tire.  Pull over, nothing more.  Even the one 
single axle trailer that snapped the axle stub off, just pulled over.

Double axle trailers don't guarantee safety, and single axle trailers aren't 
inherently dangerous.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed


> Quoth Mullen, Tim
>> Nothing like
>> experiencing a blow out of a tire on a loaded single axle
>> trailer at 65 MPH on the freeway in heavy traffic
>
> Just curious, Tim, what happened ?  I've had blowouts several times now on
> single-axle trailers with very little drama.  Happened to Dad once when I
> was a teenager and I had to tell him about the tire smoke chasing us down
> the highway.  Last time it happened to me, the biggest drama was whether 
> my
> out-weighed tow vehicle had enough traction to pull the trailer through 
> the
> gravel median to a safe place to change it.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 05:19:06 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 04:19:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <470A945F.7000401@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <20071009111905.YMRT660.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is tongue weight.
> Having insufficient tongue weight is a really bad thing.

Yes indeed.  Absolutely essential to have at least 1/8 of the total trailer
weight on the tongue/hitch.

Also make sure your tie-downs are up to snuff.  Normally they don't do much,
but in an emergency they may wind up taking the full weight of the car.
Just at the worst possible moment for them to snap.

Randall

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Tue Oct  9 05:30:57 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:30:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru
 abulkhead
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
Message-ID: <001401c80a67$dd0e99d0$7029c40a@mde.state.md.us>

I've seen what you describe used on tow trucks, snow plows, and trailers.

I'd suggest checking out some of the truck supply stores.  Not pickup 
trucks, but commercial trucks.  As well some of the snow plow equipment 
stores.  You also might peruse the trailer and RV stores for such a fitting.

You could use a conventional hardware store turn lock or dryer type 
connector.  These can be had that can handle 60 amps.  This may be the 
easiest route to take.

McMaster-Carr may well have what you want as well.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 12:31 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru 
abulkhead


> I'm apparently not using the correct terminology because I've
> spent well over an hour trying to find the following (with no success):
>
> What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps in a larger size
> than what I need now.  I remember seeing aircraft type connections when
> an APU could be connected to an aircraft by simply uncovering an opening
> and inserting a two pronged (plus and minus) cable fitting from the APU
> to the airframe.  I'm looking for something similar but only needing to
> handle
> 12V, 70amp and 8ga wire.  I want to connect my HD car trailer battery to 
> my
> electric winch (enclosed trailer and the battery is inside the front
> cabinets and
> difficult to reach) thru the cabinet face.  Inside the cabinet the battery
> will always
> be hooked to the bulkhead fitting.  When I want to use the winch, I simply
> attach it to the pin restraint in the floor and plug the cable into the
> receptacle fitting
> at the bulkhead.
>
> Hope this makes sense.
>
> Any suggestions out there?

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Oct  9 06:19:51 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 08:19:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru
 abulkhead
In-Reply-To: <001401c80a67$dd0e99d0$7029c40a@mde.state.md.us>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
	<001401c80a67$dd0e99d0$7029c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <0JPN00LUQ8WRPW81@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I see Eastwood has something similar to what others have 
found:  http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=2976&itemType=PRODUCT

I think it's made by Painless Performance, so you can peruse their site here:

http://www.painlessperformance.com/

(I really only posted this to see if Tony Clark can find it at Harbor 
Freight for a dollar.  :-))

-Steve

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Oct  9 06:36:18 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:36:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
Message-ID: <OF1A99B377.3398CF24-ON8525736F.00453DD2-8525736F.00453DD7@mail.megageek.com>

Ok, so it seems that everyone is on the same page here.  But I want to tell
a little story about trailer brakes and dual axles.

My buddy borrowed my dual axle, electronic brake trailer a few years ago.
He was coming back from upstate NY and one of the electronic brakes froze
up (turns out a piece inside the brakes broke and froze up the wheel.)

With the wheel skidding, he was able to safely bring the truck to the side
of the road and check the wheel.  That is when he found out that he didn't
have the correct size lug wrench with him.  So he called me to ask what to
do.  I told him that if he felt safe, drag the trailer (skidding wheel and
all) to the nearest garage, which he did.  They where able to get the tire
off for him, but he didn't have a replacement tire.  Ah, the neat trick
with a dual axle is that you can remove a tire and still run the trailer.
(this is what he did until he was able to get to the nearest place for a
new tire.)

I will always recommend dual axle for any heavy load, but brakes are more
optional, IMHO.

Here are pics of the brakes...
http://tinyurl.com/3dygvy

And here is the tire...
http://tinyurl.com/3bvyb8

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Oct  9 07:02:40 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 09:02:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] laser range finder
Message-ID: <OF63C02579.CF48480C-ON8525736F.0047A806-8525736F.0047A809@mail.megageek.com>

Last night, my buddy came over with his 30.06.  He is leaving on a hunting
trip for Africa this weekend and he wanted to make sure his scope was
sighted correctly.

Now, I have a makeshift range in my back yard so it wasn't a problem
firing.  The issue was that we wanted to get an accurate distance to the
target.  We paced it out, but the ground isn't level, making the pace count
a little unreliable.

So, I got an idea for a new tool that I need!  8>)  I'm in the market for a
laser range finder (note, I already have one of the ones for inside a
building with a 100' range.)  But I'm looking for something that can do up
to 250m.  Hopefully something with either a scope for sighting the exact
point of measurement or a dot that sights it.

I'm not going to be using it frequently, so I don't want to spend hundreds
of bucks.  Horrible freight doesn't have any cheapies.

Any ideas?

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Tue Oct  9 07:23:29 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:23:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <OF63C02579.CF48480C-ON8525736F.0047A806-8525736F.0047A809@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF63C02579.CF48480C-ON8525736F.0047A806-8525736F.0047A809@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <470B80D1.9060303@xxiii.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> So, I got an idea for a new tool that I need!  8>)  I'm in the market for a
> laser range finder (note, I already have one of the ones for inside a
> ........
> I'm not going to be using it frequently, so I don't want to spend hundreds
> of bucks.  Horrible freight doesn't have any cheapies.

It's not high-tech, but Harbor Freight has several varieties of trundle 
wheels.  You know, the old roll along things with a rev counter.  For $6 
- $25, the price is right, esp for infrequent use.

http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=%22measuring+wheel%22&Submit=Go


   -Wayne

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Oct  9 07:29:22 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 09:29:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] laser range finder
Message-ID: <OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>

Wayne replies...

>It's not high-tech, but Harbor Freight has several varieties of trundle
>wheels.  You know, the old roll along things with a rev counter.  For $6
>- $25, the price is right, esp for infrequent use.

Actually, I already have one of these.  The problem is that the range fires
over a small valley with a stream in it.  This means that any ground based
measurements will read much further that a bullets path.

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 07:46:42 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:46:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <B589246D5A3E45DA83EAD1730F34283D@OwnerPC>

Eric,

if you want to do a little cipherin' ( to qoute Buffett "I HATE MATH!!!) 
you can do it like the old time surveyors (before emd).

Measure from your gun rest to a point at the  top of the slope going  down 
to the bottom (write that number down)  measure down the slope from that 
point to the bottom and find the verticle angle of the slope (crude 
measurement would be with a protractor or inclinometer) or transit if you 
have one.   Looking at logrithem tables find the cosine of the vertical 
angle and multiply it times the distance down the hill.   i.e. if the 
distance is 200 feet and the vertical angle is 40 degrees (pretty steep) 
200 x .76604 (the cosine of 40 degrees) = 153.21.  so effectively the slope 
shortened the distance 46.7 feet

do the same thing on the other side and you have your shortened distance. 
Measure from the top point on the opposite side to the target... add the 4 
numbers together and you got it (Bob's your uncle!)   Make sense  ?   keep 
your tape straight and taut when you measure.  If you want it critical use 
plumb bobs over your points.  But I'd thing anything within a few feet would 
do for gun sighting.

john
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] laser range finder


> Wayne replies...
>
>>It's not high-tech, but Harbor Freight has several varieties of trundle
>>wheels.  You know, the old roll along things with a rev counter.  For $6
>>- $25, the price is right, esp for infrequent use.
>
> Actually, I already have one of these.  The problem is that the range 
> fires
> over a small valley with a stream in it.  This means that any ground based
> measurements will read much further that a bullets path.
>
> Moose
>
> "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>     Tori Amos
> _______________________________________________
> jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Oct  9 07:59:37 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 09:59:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
Message-ID: <OF7ED9E524.BFC5AD62-ON8525736F.004CDEAD-8525736F.004CDEB1@mail.megageek.com>

John replies with excellent math calcs for finding the distance.

Thanks John,

I don't hate math, and I understand how to do that, but wouldn't it be
easier to just pull a string the distance and measure the string instead of
all that math, calcuations, measuring, and setup of transits and such?  8>)

Besides, here is an excuse to buy a cool new toy!


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Oct  9 08:05:43 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:05:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] rangefinder
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710091003580.15538@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

This may be a dumb suggestion, but if you've already got one that goes 
100' (presumably with some accuracy), why not measure the distance in a 
few shots?

Pick spots for the targets that are in line with one another.

Although I agree, a laser rangefinder that would shoot a longer distance 
would be neat, and this sounds like a great excuse (sorry!  Need!) to buy 
one.  :-)

Mark

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Tue Oct  9 08:11:59 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:11:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
References: <OF1A99B377.3398CF24-ON8525736F.00453DD2-8525736F.00453DD7@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c80a7e$5bf55160$7029c40a@mde.state.md.us>

That story depends a great deal on the trailer, the load, and the laws of 
the state.

Many a dual axle trailer will end up with the remaining tire jammed into the 
fender.  Has to do with that center bogie most of them use, and the amount 
of movement that comes from placing all the load on one axle.

Many dual axle trailers use light weight axles and low rated tires, counting 
on the combined pieces to have enough capacity.  Running it on one axle can 
easily overload the remaining tire and axle assembly.

Many states would bust you for trying it, and impound the trailer. 
Especially if you were still running a tire on the other side of the axle.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <eric at megageek.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed


> Ok, so it seems that everyone is on the same page here.  But I want to 
> tell
> a little story about trailer brakes and dual axles.
>
> My buddy borrowed my dual axle, electronic brake trailer a few years ago.
> He was coming back from upstate NY and one of the electronic brakes froze
> up (turns out a piece inside the brakes broke and froze up the wheel.)
>
> With the wheel skidding, he was able to safely bring the truck to the side
> of the road and check the wheel.  That is when he found out that he didn't
> have the correct size lug wrench with him.  So he called me to ask what to
> do.  I told him that if he felt safe, drag the trailer (skidding wheel and
> all) to the nearest garage, which he did.  They where able to get the tire
> off for him, but he didn't have a replacement tire.  Ah, the neat trick
> with a dual axle is that you can remove a tire and still run the trailer.
> (this is what he did until he was able to get to the nearest place for a
> new tire.)
>
> I will always recommend dual axle for any heavy load, but brakes are more
> optional, IMHO.

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Tue Oct  9 09:33:29 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:33:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed; fish-tailing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071008150512.00adcdb8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <007f01c80a89$bfb86830$3f293890$@mele@usermail.com>

<< It will start swaying back and forth. >> 

I have a small, 1200 lb payload 2 wheel trailer from HF with 12 in wheels
Used it for many years to tow tires and tool box, tent, etc, to BMW driver's
schools

NEVER any sway problem until I added 6 in to the rear of the trailer to
allow a 9 gallon air tank and (2) 5-gal military style gas cans to be added.
This extra weight on the back caused remarkable swaying.

I asked around at the track...
Was told that when tongue weight is much less than 10 % of trailer weight,
the tongue lifts off the ball and the play in the joint allows some
left-right "steering" input to the trailer.

I solved the problem by welding on 2 studs, 1 in by 12 in long, on the front
R and L corners of the trailer.
I then slipped on old brake disks as ballast weights until I had 10% weight
on front...
Swaying went away.

When I moved up to a 4-wheel open trailer and started towing my track car, I
had same problem....about 6 inch worth of different positioning of the car
on the trailer had the same effect.


As my Chinese friend, Shu Fai says, "Rife is awr about barance"...

From trevor at boicey.com  Tue Oct  9 10:14:06 2007
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:14:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
In-Reply-To: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
Message-ID: <470BA8CE.8020209@boicey.com>

Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
> I'm apparently not using the correct terminology because I've
> spent well over an hour trying to find the following (with no success):
> 
> What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps in a larger size
> than what I need now.  I remember seeing aircraft type connections when
> an APU could be connected to an aircraft by simply uncovering an opening
> and inserting a two pronged (plus and minus) cable fitting from the APU
> to the airframe.  I'm looking for something similar but only needing to 
> handle
> 12V, 70amp and 8ga wire.

   The link will probably get mangled, but...

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/62022/377%20710/0/ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=%20ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=316

   If it doesn't work, hit http://www.westmarine.com and search for 
"ConnectPro Trolling Motor Plug".

   You might want to check the capacity but it seems to take 8ga wire. 
Or even 6ga, depending on which lines you read and which end you are 
talking about.

-- 
Trevor Boicey, P. Eng.
Ottawa, Canada, trevor at boicey.com
ICQ #17432933 http://www.brit.ca/~tboicey/

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  9 10:31:05 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:31:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20071009105408.KFZU25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<20071009105408.KFZU25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <02da01c80a91$ca2de440$5e89acc0$@net>

I agree with you on the expedition comment - most of those were caused by
panic attacks, or insurance collection attempts.  Trailer's can be a
different story, and it all depends on the situation, and load / weight of
the trailer and tow vehicle.  I've had numerous blow-outs on both 2 and 4
wheel trailers and almost all of them are not eventful, besides being a big
pain in the @&$$.  Other times it seems there is a combination of problems
that can cause really wild rides.  Once I was pulling a load of sheet metal
for a new barn, big tandem trailer, but no brakes and big suburban, so
everything was set - loaded up the trailer, and I'm, guessing that the
trailer and load was probably equal if not a little greater than the
suburban, but it pulled and felt OK.  Did some test turns and brakes with no
problems. On the way home, there is a large hill with fairly rough pavement
and after topping out and heading down the other side the trailer begins to
sway violently, I'm already going about 50 when it starts, and since it is
downhill braking only makes it worse, The trailer actually starts sliding
the back end of the suburban around. We ended up in the median with some
very nice new body damage to my father-in-laws suburban and a dire need for
a change of shorts. Best I could tell is that the sheet metal had shifted
back on the hill going up, and so we lost any tongue weight, and at some
point a tire blew at the top of the hill or on the way down which made the
swaying more uncontrollable.  The good thing is there was no other traffic
on the road, because I had no control of the load, and could only try and
ride it out.  Needless to say if there had been E brakes on the trailer it
would not have been an issue.  

As long as nothing goes wrong, you can do anything!

     

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Randall
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:54 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed

Quoth Mullen, Tim
> Nothing like 
> experiencing a blow out of a tire on a loaded single axle 
> trailer at 65 MPH on the freeway in heavy traffic

Just curious, Tim, what happened ?  I've had blowouts several times now on
single-axle trailers with very little drama.  Happened to Dad once when I
was a teenager and I had to tell him about the tire smoke chasing us down
the highway.  Last time it happened to me, the biggest drama was whether my
out-weighed tow vehicle had enough traction to pull the trailer through the
gravel median to a safe place to change it.

From jibjib at att.net  Tue Oct  9 18:53:39 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:53:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <00cd01c809f7$b0cc4bd0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<00cd01c809f7$b0cc4bd0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <03bc01c80ad7$ffd5fec0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

>I want to buy a trailer big enough to tow an Austin Healey Sprite.

When I bought my TR3 and trailered it home on a U-haul, it was just barely
on both inner 450 angle plates.  The track was too narrow for the rails and
almost too narrow for the trailer.

Jack

From nases at verizon.net  Tue Oct  9 16:01:03 2007
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:01:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <OF63C02579.CF48480C-ON8525736F.0047A806-8525736F.0047A809@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF63C02579.CF48480C-ON8525736F.0047A806-8525736F.0047A809@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <002701c80abf$e2f53090$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>

 How about a GPS to get a fix at the bench and the target.   Accuracy may be
off 10 meters or so depending on the unit but it should be close.


Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa

Subject: [Shop-talk] laser range finder

Last night, my buddy came over with his 30.06.  He is leaving on a hunting
trip for Africa this weekend and he wanted to make sure his scope was
sighted correctly.

Now, I have a makeshift range in my back yard so it wasn't a problem firing.
The issue was that we wanted to get an accurate distance to the target.  We
paced it out, but the ground isn't level, making the pace count a little
unreliable.

So, I got an idea for a new tool that I need!  8>)  I'm in the market for a
laser range finder (note, I already have one of the ones for inside a
building with a 100' range.)  But I'm looking for something that can do up
to 250m.  Hopefully something with either a scope for sighting the exact
point of measurement or a dot that sights it.

I'm not going to be using it frequently, so I don't want to spend hundreds
of bucks.  Horrible freight doesn't have any cheapies.

Any ideas?

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Tue Oct  9 23:30:44 2007
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 22:30:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
	<470BA8CE.8020209@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <074d01c80afe$b45b1c60$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

Actually  this looks like the closest yet to what I'm looking
for, but I'll need to check the 75amp carrying capacity that I need.
I'm getting closer!
Thanks everyone
Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trevor Boicey" <trevor at boicey.com>
To: "Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA" <gsteve at hammatt.com>; 
"Shop-Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru 
a bulkhead


| Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
| > I'm apparently not using the correct terminology because I've
| > spent well over an hour trying to find the following (with no 
success):
| >
| > What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps in a larger 
size
| > than what I need now.  I remember seeing aircraft type connections 
when
| > an APU could be connected to an aircraft by simply uncovering an 
opening
| > and inserting a two pronged (plus and minus) cable fitting from the 
APU
| > to the airframe.  I'm looking for something similar but only needing 
to
| > handle
| > 12V, 70amp and 8ga wire.
|
|   The link will probably get mangled, but...
|
| 
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/62022/377%20710/0/ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=%20ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=316
|
|   If it doesn't work, hit http://www.westmarine.com and search for
| "ConnectPro Trolling Motor Plug".
|
|   You might want to check the capacity but it seems to take 8ga wire.
| Or even 6ga, depending on which lines you read and which end you are
| talking about.
|
| -- 
| Trevor Boicey, P. Eng.
| Ottawa, Canada, trevor at boicey.com
| ICQ #17432933 http://www.brit.ca/~tboicey/
|
|
| -- 
| No virus found in this incoming message.
| Checked by AVG Free Edition.
| Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1059 - Release Date: 
10/9/2007 8:44 AM
|
| 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Oct 10 07:17:31 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:17:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <B589246D5A3E45DA83EAD1730F34283D@OwnerPC>
References: <OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
	<OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>

At 08:46 AM 10/9/2007 -0500, john niolon wrote:

>Looking at logrithem tables find the cosine of the vertical 
>angle and multiply it times the distance down the hill.

WOW!!!  I haven't seen a logrithem table since high school.  I graduated
in 67.  Plus they are big.  It's a lot easier to spend $10 for a scientific
calculator, or take the numbers back to you computer (unless you have a 
lap top) and use the calculator provided in windows (just set it to
scientific).

In fact, most people at my office didn't know what a CRC table book was!

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Tue Oct  9 11:58:49 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:58:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
In-Reply-To: <470BA8CE.8020209@boicey.com>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
	<470BA8CE.8020209@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <004101c80a9e$0bdc32f0$6501a8c0@proteus457>

TinyURL is your friend!  (http://tinyurl.com/)

The link below becomes http://tinyurl.com/2gjcpn

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trevor Boicey
> 
>    The link will probably get mangled, but...
> 
> http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-
> 1/10001/62022/377%20710/0/ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug/Primary%20S
> earch/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=ConnectPro%20Trollin
> g%20Motor%20Plug&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=
> 0&keyword=%20ConnectPro%20Trolling%20Motor%20Plug&isLTokenURL=true&storeNu
> m=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=316

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 16:32:56 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:32:56 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery connectors
Message-ID: <020d01c80ac4$5763df90$6401a8c0@niolon>

Steve,

I got into the discussion late and you may have what you want.  this is what 
I use on my truck

cables from battery to frame rail mounted connector.. (female plug in) 
jumper cables (with male plug in) goes to that

works good for a service vehicle... check with these folks I bet they have 
what you want

http://www.quickcable.com/details.php?partno=124107

later
John


Frame every so-called disaster with these words: "In five years.. will this 
matter?" 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Oct 10 09:26:44 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:26:44 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20071010152643.QIKF29393.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> In fact, most people at my office didn't know what a CRC 
> table book was!

That's where you look up Cyclic Redundancy Checks, right ?
<G>

Randall

From nases at verizon.net  Tue Oct  9 16:05:17 2007
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:05:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
Message-ID: <002801c80ac0$7abc2b90$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>

Thanks everyone for the trailer safety ideas and relating your experiences.
My experience is only with a very lightweight boat trailer (Sunfish) and a
heavier boat that I used only 5 miles each direction.

If anyone hears of an open trailer close to PA please keep me in mind.


Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Oct 10 09:36:23 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:36:23 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <03bc01c80ad7$ffd5fec0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <20071010153624.JXOC26917.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> When I bought my TR3 and trailered it home on a U-haul, it 
> was just barely on both inner 450 angle plates.  The track 
> was too narrow for the rails and almost too narrow for the trailer.

OTOH, a TR3 will fit (barely) inside their biggest box trailer.

Randall

From gwishon at nd.edu  Wed Oct 10 09:37:47 2007
From: gwishon at nd.edu (Gordon Wishon)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:37:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
	<OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <036301c80b53$8372d070$8a587150$@edu>

Find a golfer friend who owns a laser range-finder, and borrow it for a day!
The one I own (Bushnell Pinseeker) can easily measure targets from 5-1,500
yards with excellent accuracy.

Now if it could just cure my slice!

Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gwishon=nd.edu at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gwishon=nd.edu at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John
T. Blair
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:18 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder

At 08:46 AM 10/9/2007 -0500, john niolon wrote:

>Looking at logrithem tables find the cosine of the vertical 
>angle and multiply it times the distance down the hill.

WOW!!!  I haven't seen a logrithem table since high school.  I graduated
in 67.  Plus they are big.  It's a lot easier to spend $10 for a scientific
calculator, or take the numbers back to you computer (unless you have a 
lap top) and use the calculator provided in windows (just set it to
scientific).

In fact, most people at my office didn't know what a CRC table book was!

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
_______________________________________________
gwishon at nd.edu

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From chad at linuxeg.com  Wed Oct 10 09:47:20 2007
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:47:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <20071010152643.QIKF29393.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071010152643.QIKF29393.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <470CF408.9020905@linuxeg.com>

Why not go for a CheyTac "Intervention" system................
http://www.cheytac.com/HubPage.html
Well, maybe not.
chad

>_______________________________________________
>chad at linuxeg.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Wed Oct 10 09:48:06 2007
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:48:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com><OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F08C5B320@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>

Hmm, the CRC book has all sorts of useful information.  I suspect that
most of the people here at work have never seen it either.  They would
just "google" the answer.  I had to explain what a slide rule was used
for last time someone saw it in my desk drawer... I said think of it as
an old calculator :)

Stuart (I can't be that old) Galt.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Blair [mailto:jblair1948 at cox.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:18 AM
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
>
> At 08:46 AM 10/9/2007 -0500, john niolon wrote:
>
> >Looking at logrithem tables find the cosine of the vertical
> angle and
> >multiply it times the distance down the hill.
>
> WOW!!!  I haven't seen a logrithem table since high school.
> I graduated in 67.  Plus they are big.  It's a lot easier to
> spend $10 for a scientific calculator, or take the numbers
> back to you computer (unless you have a lap top) and use the
> calculator provided in windows (just set it to scientific).
>
> In fact, most people at my office didn't know what a CRC
> table book was!
>
> John

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Oct 10 10:01:59 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:01:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20071009105408.KFZU25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7976F6612@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<20071009105408.KFZU25784.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797730EA7@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randall wrote:
>
> Just curious, Tim, what happened ?  I've had blowouts several
> times now on single-axle trailers with very little drama.

Well the weight limit on the trailer and the tow vehicle was at
the limit, and when the tire blew, the trailer started "wagging".
It happened on a sweeping curve in the middle of a city - no
median, or even side to pull out on, just a cement wall.  The
fact that cars were riding next to the trailer and naturally
tailgating it just added to the problem.

Once I got it slowed down, it just pulled it, but I had to go
a bit to find a place to pull off, and it didn't like it much.

Probably more panic on my side more than anything else, but I
want a dual axle trailer (with electric brakes that I can
manually apply to stop the swaying) the next time I tow.
Come to think of it, the last time I towed using that setup,
it was with a truck with more towing capacity and a higher
tongue weight capacity (so the car was moved farther up on
the trailer to increase the tongue weight).  I didn't even
know the trailer was there with that rig (but no blow outs
either).

Tim Mullen

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Tue Oct  9 23:32:47 2007
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 22:32:47 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery connectors
References: <020d01c80ac4$5763df90$6401a8c0@niolon>
Message-ID: <075801c80afe$fdc81ba0$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

John
Quick Cable make a very nice unit, but primarily for cable to cable
connection.  I'm looking for a bulkhead fitting (1" thick plywood to go
thru) with a cover.  Into that unit I'd like to plug in my cable.  Doesn't
look like Quick Cable will work.
Super thanks.

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: john niolon
  To: gsteve at hammatt.com ; shop-talk
  Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:32 PM
  Subject: battery connectors


  Steve,

  I got into the discussion late and you may have what you want.  this is what
I use on my truck

  cables from battery to frame rail mounted connector.. (female plug in)
jumper cables (with male plug in) goes to that

  works good for a service vehicle... check with these folks I bet they have
what you want

  http://www.quickcable.com/details.php?partno=124107

  later
  John


  Frame every so-called disaster with these words: "In five years.. will this
matter?"


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
  Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1059 - Release Date: 10/9/2007
8:44 AM

From mlye at risd.edu  Wed Oct 10 10:10:57 2007
From: mlye at risd.edu (Michael Lye)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:10:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
In-Reply-To: <004101c80a9e$0bdc32f0$6501a8c0@proteus457>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
	<470BA8CE.8020209@boicey.com>
	<004101c80a9e$0bdc32f0$6501a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <CA78BAD6-BAF8-4BEF-9997-CCF227EB9E25@risd.edu>

I'm forgotten the details of original post but you might try looking  
at Amphenol's range of Radsok type connectors. High current rating in  
a small package. For some examples see:
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/631/1119.pdf
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/631/1120.pdf

Good luck,

Michael

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Tue Oct  9 21:03:41 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:03:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071009200034.034b0b38@incoming.verizon.net>

If  you could stretch a string and measure it, why not get a cheap Horrible 
Freight 100 yard/meter fiberglass tape measure?  I have one; low tech but 
it works fine.  Sorry about it's not being a range finder....

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36819

they go on sale for a lot less all the time.

Dave C

At 09:59 AM  10/9/2007  -0400, eric at megageek.com wrote:
>John replies with excellent math calcs for finding the distance.
>
>Thanks John,
>
>I don't hate math, and I understand how to do that, but wouldn't it be
>easier to just pull a string the distance and measure the string instead of
>all that math, calcuations, measuring, and setup of transits and such?  8>)
>
>Besides, here is an excuse to buy a cool new toy!
>
>
>Moose
>
>"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>      Tori Amos
>_______________________________________________
>cavanadd at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From lee at automate-it.com  Tue Oct  9 13:11:11 2007
From: lee at automate-it.com (Lee Daniels)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:11:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Source (or alternative) for Phosphoric Acid
In-Reply-To: <001101c7fd26$bea5ccf0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <BAY126-W9AFFD5172E21F218DC2A6CCBB0@phx.gbl><006501c7fc5a$548e3310$6e01a8c0@KARL><BAY126-W25E0DB0770F098F7BDE6CECCB40@phx.gbl>
	<bdde53220709220453l279e0110n4296137e3ebd6c9d@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY126-W47C8F31F7BDD8265479710CCB40@phx.gbl>
	<001101c7fd26$bea5ccf0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <1725.24.227.140.156.1191957071.squirrel@www.automate-it.com>

There's another product that I've been very happy with, OSPHO. See more at
 http://www.ospho.com/
It's basically an aqueous solution of phosphoric acid, at 45 weight percent.
It pours/sprays like water. I had some old, very rusted Triumphs wheels that I
sprayed with Ospho. I let it sit for a day then rinsed with water. They ended
up sitting on my humid, warm garage floor for about 7 years here in Texas, and
no rust ever showed up again.

You can order bulk (4 gallons for $119) from the web site, smaller quantities
at the retail outlets listed on the web site.

 - Lee

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Oct 10 12:43:48 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:43:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru
 abulkhead
In-Reply-To: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79773101C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA wrote:
>
> What I'm looking for I'm sure I've seen before, perhaps
> in a larger size than what I need now.  I remember seeing
> aircraft type connections when an APU could be connected
> to an aircraft <...>

A bit pricy, but how about this for the receptacle:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/extpowerrect.php

And for the plug:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/jumperplug.php

If that's too expensive, I've seen the Anderson/"Quick Cable" type
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=1335
that has been posted here a couple of times - usually a two
conductor red or gray plug - in a bulkhead mountable version.
I can't remember where, but it was for tow truck equipment - it
allowed a permanent receptacle to be mounted on the back of a
tow truck so that jumper cables with the matching plug could
be used.

You could use the "no handle plug/receptacle" in link above
(http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/bigpicture.asp?RecId=1336)
to make your flush mounted receptacle.  Add a right angle brace
to the underside so that the bolts that hold the two halves
together pass through the angle brace.  Then cut out a hole
in the cabinet so that the end of the plug sticks through the
opening.  Screw the angle brace to the back side of the cabinet.

Then you just plug in your cable attached to the other
plug/receptacle (add the handle to that side).

Poor ASCII art of the Connector on top of the angle brace...

===================
                 |
          XXXXXXXX
            ----.|
		    ||
		    ||
		     |
		     |


Might be an inexpensive way to go...

Tim Mullen

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Oct 10 12:53:42 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:53:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru
 abulkhead
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79773101C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79773101C@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <470D1FB6.3010301@dimebank.com>

Anderson makes "mounting clamp sets" that are designed to effect a 
bulkhead mount for the 75A powerpoles:

http://www.powerwerx.com/product.asp?ProdID=1780&CtgID=1679

If 75A isn't enough for you, it shouldn't be hard to fashion a similar 
plate for the larger contact housings.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Oct 10 13:24:27 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:24:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797730EA7@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <20071010192427.SCUQ2217.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> Well the weight limit on the trailer and the tow vehicle was 
> at the limit, and when the tire blew, the trailer started "wagging".

Thanks for the explanation, Tim.

> The fact that cars were riding next to the trailer and naturally 
> tailgating it just added to the problem.

Way I see it, anyone that is following my trailer too close deserves
whatever they get.  As someone once said "What'sa behind me isa not
important !" <G>

> (so the car was moved farther up on 
> the trailer to increase the tongue weight). 

And that's the big secret, IMO.  Have to get the tongue weight up where it
belongs, or keep the speed under 50 mph.  Which is why U-crawl has "45 mph"
blazoned all over their trailers.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Oct 10 14:08:59 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:08:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
Message-ID: <0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

There is another thing that you should think about.  To me, a trailer 
is a general "tool" that is very handy to have!  It is not something 
I bought to just tow one kind of vehicle for a certain number of 
miles.  You certainly don't want to get something that's too big for 
your tow vehicle.  But a trailer will come in handy for lots of other 
transport jobs that you probably haven't thought of yet.  For this 
reason, the idea of a full floor, rather than one "track" for each 
side makes for a more versatile trailer.  I have used mine to move my 
tractor.  My trailer is 16' long.  It has a solid diamond plate steel 
deck.  Two Axles.  Electric brakes, on one axle only.  It has done 
everything I've asked of it and I have no complaints.  Some people 
say 18' would be better.  Brakes on both axles would be better, I 
suppose, but one axle was considered acceptable by most states for 
"non-commercial" use.  When you're buying used, your choices are 
limited, just like car shopping.  Find a basic configuration that 
will work for you.  The description above works for me, but your 
needs may be different.  Make sure there isn't any major damage, 
nothing twisted, etc.  Keep in mind that tires get unsafe with 
age.  Most trailers don't go enough miles to "wear out" tires.  Don't 
sweat the lights and wiring.  If you can deal with an Austin Healey, 
you can rewire a taillight.

At 02:26 PM 10/8/2007, Phil Nase wrote:
>I want to buy a trailer big enough to tow an Austin Healey Sprite.  My tow
>vehicle is a 04 Toyota Tacoma with the bigger six  and a tow package.
>
>I want to keep it on the lighter side so an open trailer is fine.  I will be
>towing it 1200 miles or so next year.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Oct 10 14:17:40 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:17:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20071010192427.SCUQ2217.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797730EA7@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<20071010192427.SCUQ2217.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797731141@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Randall wrote:

>> The fact that cars were riding next to the trailer and
>> naturally tailgating it just added to the problem.

> Way I see it, anyone that is following my trailer too
> close deserves whatever they get.  As someone once said
> "What'sa behind me isa not important !" <G>

Well, yea, but what was on my trailer was my freshly restored
(after many, many, many more years than it should have taken)
Lotus Elan.  I wasn't worried about what the trailer would do
to the tailgaters, I was worried about what they would do to
my precious Elan...  ;-)

Tim Mullen

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Oct 10 14:45:35 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:45:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710101641330.5070@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Steven Trovato wrote:
> There is another thing that you should think about.  To me, a trailer
> is a general "tool" that is very handy to have!  It is not something
> I bought to just tow one kind of vehicle for a certain number of
> miles.  You certainly don't want to get something that's too big for
> your tow vehicle.  But a trailer will come in handy for lots of other
> transport jobs that you probably haven't thought of yet.  For this
> reason, the idea of a full floor, rather than one "track" for each
> side makes for a more versatile trailer.

Sort of.

A rail trailer makes a really handy lift when you're at the races and its 
lighter to tow.

I agree that if you're hauling tractors around, using it for carrying 
building debris, or whatever that having the closed deck is really nice. 
But if you're getting it to tow your racecar to the track, consider an 
open rail trailer.

Somewhat related... I don't think you really save all that much buying a 
used trailer vs. a new one.  There are deals out there of course, but from 
what I've seen of trailer ads, the ones that are at enough of a discount 
over new to make it worthwhile to me are usually beat to death.  They seem 
to hold their value pretty well.

Mark

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Oct 10 14:49:37 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:49:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed; aren't tools fun?
In-Reply-To: <0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <00dd01c80b7f$13bd8a00$3b389e00$@mele@usermail.com>

<<To me, a trailer is a general "tool" that is very handy to have!  It is
not something 
I bought to just tow one kind of vehicle for a certain number of 
miles.  You certainly don't want to get something that's too big for 
your tow vehicle.  But a trailer will come in handy for lots of other 
transport jobs that you probably haven't thought of yet>>

Though I haven't found much other use for my piston ring groove cleaner or
my pickle fork, I must agree that many tools end up being much more useful
than anticipated. 
 
I've accumulated 3 different trailers (2 used) over the past 10 years; just
got a 2 wheel dolly (used) for $75.  They all have given much greater
service than I ever expected.  I second the Trovato (? Relative of La
Traviata) vote.

While we're it, I'd say that the blue wrench (oxy-acet)is in the same
category...you're wonder how you lived without it.

Paul

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 15:16:09 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:16:09 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed; aren't tools fun?
In-Reply-To: <-7257678660873438608@unknownmsgid>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<-7257678660873438608@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710101416p1661458by1145e4afbcc7bdd8@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/07, Paul Mele <paul.mele at usermail.com> wrote:
>
> Though I haven't found much other use for my piston ring groove cleaner or
> my pickle fork, I must agree that many tools end up being much more useful
> than anticipated.

Pickle forks are great for defrosting freezers that don't have exposed coils.



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Oct 10 18:06:38 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:06:38 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
Message-ID: <OFA68A9CDA.62D1C6BF-ON85257371.00009B8C-85257371.00009B8F@mail.megageek.com>

If you want to borrow my 6X12 landscape trailer you can.

I'm just across the NJ boarder in Clinton, NJ.

(Note, the trailer is dual axle with non-functioning brakes. (see previous
post!))  8>)



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos



-----shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net wrote: -----


To: <nases at verizon.net>, <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
From: "Phil Nase" <nases at verizon.net>
Sent by: shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net
Date: 10/09/2007 18:05
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed

Thanks everyone for the trailer safety ideas and relating your experiences.
My experience is only with a very lightweight boat trailer (Sunfish) and a
heavier boat that I used only 5 miles each direction.

If anyone hears of an open trailer close to PA please keep me in mind.


Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa
_______________________________________________
eric at megageek.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Oct 10 20:29:18 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:29:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed; aren't tools fun?
In-Reply-To: <00dd01c80b7f$13bd8a00$3b389e00$%mele@usermail.com>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<00dd01c80b7f$13bd8a00$3b389e00$%mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <0JPQ00I12703V700@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Not so sure about the ring groove cleaner, but I've heard the pickle 
fork can be handy if your shop is located in a bad 
neighborhood.  BTW, Trovato means "found" in Italian.  If you know 
anyone named Perso, we should go into business together just so we 
can be "Lost and Found".



>Though I haven't found much other use for my piston ring groove cleaner or
>my pickle fork, I must agree that many tools end up being much more useful
>than anticipated.
>
>I've accumulated 3 different trailers (2 used) over the past 10 years; just
>got a 2 wheel dolly (used) for $75.  They all have given much greater
>service than I ever expected.  I second the Trovato (? Relative of La
>Traviata) vote.

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Oct 10 20:44:55 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:44:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710101641330.5070@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <003601c809d8$cc5c5c10$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>
	<0JPP00C0QPDXAAG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710101641330.5070@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <0JPQ00HQX7NEU001@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Yeah, I never even considered track use.  As for availability and 
price of both new and used trailers, I have found that where you live 
makes a big difference.  Where I live (NY) definitely does NOT seem 
to be a major trailer commerce center!  Sometimes you can take 
delivery at one of the big car shows.  I see you're in 
Pennsylvania.  I've heard that there's someplace called "Carlisle" in 
Pennsylvania somewhere.  And there's even a rumor that some kind of 
stuff happens in Hershey that doesn't have anything at all to do with 
chocolate.

-Steve

From racertod at racertodd.com  Wed Oct 10 21:08:43 2007
From: racertod at racertodd.com (Todd Walke)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:08:43 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Trying to find a battery connector to fit thru a
 bulkhead
In-Reply-To: <000701c80a2d$46d2b800$461610ac@85081388H>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071009193034.00bb61c8@mail.pureluckdesign.com>

	While a bit of an overkill at 500amp capacity, this is what you'd find on 
a tow truck.

<http://www.towpartsnow.com/store/catalog/Associated-Equipment-orderby0-p-1-c-348.html>

Todd

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Oct 10 21:33:32 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:33:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re   laser range finder
References: <3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
	<OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
	<OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071010203126.027f4070@incoming.verizon.net>

I had forgotten about the CRC Handbook.  When I was working in the nuclear 
industry in the early '80s (pre Google) I was on the lookout for a 
good  used one but could never find one I could afford, or thought I 
could....don't much need one now but would still like to have a used copy 
if the price was right.

Dave C

At 08:48 AM  10/10/2007  -0700, Galt, Stuart A wrote:
>Hmm, the CRC book has all sorts of useful information.  I suspect that
>most of the people here at work have never seen it either.  They would
>just "google" the answer.  I had to explain what a slide rule was used
>for last time someone saw it in my desk drawer... I said think of it as
>an old calculator :)
>
>Stuart (I can't be that old) Galt.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John T. Blair [mailto:jblair1948 at cox.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:18 AM
> > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
> >
> > At 08:46 AM 10/9/2007 -0500, john niolon wrote:
> >
> > >Looking at logrithem tables find the cosine of the vertical
> > angle and
> > >multiply it times the distance down the hill.
> >
> > WOW!!!  I haven't seen a logrithem table since high school.
> > I graduated in 67.  Plus they are big.  It's a lot easier to
> > spend $10 for a scientific calculator, or take the numbers
> > back to you computer (unless you have a lap top) and use the
> > calculator provided in windows (just set it to scientific).
> >
> > In fact, most people at my office didn't know what a CRC
> > table book was!
> >
> > John
>_______________________________________________
>cavanadd at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 21:42:14 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:42:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071010203126.027f4070@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <OF0E50262E.C8C50756-ON8525736F.004A19A7-8525736F.004A19AA@mail.megageek.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20071010091731.00ab8e50@pop.east.cox.net>
	<5.0.0.25.2.20071010203126.027f4070@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710102042n514c4911r88f3b2ef9c6d548@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/07, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> I had forgotten about the CRC Handbook.  When I was working in the nuclear
> industry in the early '80s (pre Google) I was on the lookout for a
> good  used one but could never find one I could afford, or thought I
> could....don't much need one now but would still like to have a used copy
> if the price was right.

Amazon will sell you a brand new copy for $41.46.

http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Mathematical-Tables-Formulae-31st/dp/1584882913/ref=ed_oe_h/104-8065264-4004724


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Oct 10 22:19:25 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:19:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710102042n514c4911r88f3b2ef9c6d548@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <233967.4906.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Actually, the Chemistry and Physics one is a lot more
expensive:

http://www.amazon.com/CRC-Handbook-Chemistry-Physics-86th/dp/0849304865/ref=pd_sim_b_5_img/102-5050705-2112108

Doug

--- David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/07, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> > I had forgotten about the CRC Handbook.  When I
> was working in the nuclear
> > industry in the early '80s (pre Google) I was on
> the lookout for a
> > good  used one but could never find one I could
> afford, or thought I
> > could....don't much need one now but would still
> like to have a used copy
> > if the price was right.
> 
> Amazon will sell you a brand new copy for $41.46.
> 
>
http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Mathematical-Tables-Formulae-31st/dp/1584882913/ref=ed_oe_h/104-8065264-4004724

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Oct 10 22:29:14 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <02da01c80a91$ca2de440$5e89acc0$@net>
Message-ID: <992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

So generally speaking, why are trailer tires and wheel
bearings so lousy?
I always hear about them failing.  And it sounds like
it is a much more dangerous problem on a trailer
compared to a car.

Those parts never give me much trouble on my car...

Doug


--- Ron Schmittou <rs1121 at earthlink.net> wrote:
  I've had numerous
> blow-outs on both 2 and 4
> wheel trailers and almost all of them are not
> eventful, besides being a big
> pain in the @&$$. 

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 22:36:15 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:36:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <02da01c80a91$ca2de440$5e89acc0$@net>
	<992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710102136o3cc14198i976377aa41d5000f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/07, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> So generally speaking, why are trailer tires and wheel
> bearings so lousy?
> I always hear about them failing.  And it sounds like
> it is a much more dangerous problem on a trailer
> compared to a car.

My guess: you don't notice the warnings of deferred maintenance.   If
one of your car's wheel bearings is going, you hear it.  On the
trailer, not so much.  Trailers (particularly boat trailers) are often
abused.  It's very common to find trailers that are seriously
overloaded.  It's normal trailer practice to use tire/wheel
combinations that are exactly the weight rating of the axle.  Over
load the trailer ten percent, and the tires get very hot, and one will
blowout.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Oct 10 22:38:48 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:38:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710102130h2517624cr177ff43b9c71b837@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86299.5413.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

BTW, here is another pre-internet math/engineering
classic I would buy in an instant if the price were
right:

http://www.wps.com/projects/million/index.html

Doug

--- David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:


> >
> Yes, it is.  It's also more suitable for killing
> very large spiders
> with.  I thought we were talkinng aobut the math
> tables one, which I'm
> amazed to see is still updated.  A good hand
> calculator does
> everything it does.  The other handbooks are still
> quite useful, if
> you're in the field.
> 
> -- 
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Oct 10 22:42:19 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710102136o3cc14198i976377aa41d5000f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <552543.64593.qm@web610.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I see your point about overloading:  If you take
a car with 4 wheels of a certain size, and put it on a
trailer with 2 wheels of a smaller size, you could
have a problem...

Doug


--- David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>  Trailers (particularly boat
> trailers) are often
> abused.  It's very common to find trailers that are
> seriously
> overloaded.  It's normal trailer practice to use
> tire/wheel
> combinations that are exactly the weight rating of
> the axle.  Over
> load the trailer ten percent, and the tires get very
> hot, and one will
> blowout.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 22:46:07 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:46:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <86299.5413.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2400a5d40710102130h2517624cr177ff43b9c71b837@mail.gmail.com>
	<86299.5413.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710102146j3dfef181n505d05f495b23d69@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/07, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> BTW, here is another pre-internet math/engineering
> classic I would buy in an instant if the price were
> right:
>
> http://www.wps.com/projects/million/index.html
>

It's in print.   (Well it's a trade paperback reprint, but it's only $30.)


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Oct 10 22:47:55 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:47:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071011044756.VZXA6229.mta16.adelphia.net@randall>

> So generally speaking, why are trailer tires and wheel 
> bearings so lousy?
> I always hear about them failing.  And it sounds like it is a 
> much more dangerous problem on a trailer compared to a car.

Main reason is neglect, IMO.  They sit around for years then suddenly get
pressed into service and no one ever thinks about repacking wheel bearings,
or replacing tires just because they are 10 years old (with lots of tread
left).

They also get a lot more abuse, IMO.  You'd never think about driving your
car with the wheels jumping in the air, but I see lots of unloaded trailers
being treated that way (OK, I've done it myself).  There's also things like
running over curbs (or off them), potholes, etc.

And finally, I don't buy the same quality tires for my trailer as I do for
my car.  The car never gets anything less than steel radials; while the
trailer gets the cheapest bias-ply nylons I can find (that will fit and
carry the weight).

For that matter, I've had two flat tires on a car in the past year (both on
the same day).  One from a 1/4" bolt I apparently ran over, the other from
flying accident debris I didn't quite dodge.

Randall

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Wed Oct 10 23:47:39 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:47:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <233967.4906.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2400a5d40710102042n514c4911r88f3b2ef9c6d548@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071010223920.01495a00@incoming.verizon.net>

Yeah, that's the one.  You can get a used copy of the 86th edition for 
around $35, the 87th will set you back around $55, and the current edition, 
88th, is around $100 used and new $140.  The 86th  (or even the 85th) would 
probably be fine for what any of us would be doing.  At $35 it might be 
worth getting a copy even if it's a couple of editions old; heck, my 
Machinery's Handbook is from the mid '70s (22nd edition, IRRC) and it was 
worth every penny, and still plenty useful even if it is 30 years old, and 
I'm not building nuke plants any more, either.

Dave C

At 09:19 PM  10/10/2007  -0700, Doug Braun wrote:
>Actually, the Chemistry and Physics one is a lot more
>expensive:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/CRC-Handbook-Chemistry-Physics-86th/dp/0849304865/ref=pd_sim_b_5_img/102-5050705-2112108
>
>Doug
>
>--- David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10/10/07, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> > > I had forgotten about the CRC Handbook.  When I
> > was working in the nuclear
> > > industry in the early '80s (pre Google) I was on
> > the lookout for a
> > > good  used one but could never find one I could
> > afford, or thought I
> > > could....don't much need one now but would still
> > like to have a used copy
> > > if the price was right.
> >
> > Amazon will sell you a brand new copy for $41.46.
> >
> >
>http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Mathematical-Tables-Formulae-31st/dp/1584882913/ref=ed_oe_h/104-8065264-4004724

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Oct 11 00:24:19 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:24:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710102136o3cc14198i976377aa41d5000f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071011062420.SCJP2217.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> Trailers (particularly boat 
> trailers) are often abused.

Boat trailers are a special case for a different reason : when you get to
the lake with your boat, the first thing you do is dunk the trailer !  Hot
hubs + cold water = dirty water sucked into the bearings.

In theory, "Bearing Buddies" will keep water from being sucked in, but from
what I've seen they don't work so well in practice.  And most boat trailers
come without them (at least they used to).

Randall

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Oct 11 08:48:50 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:48:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071011104240.S27456@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Doug Braun wrote:
> So generally speaking, why are trailer tires and wheel
> bearings so lousy?
> I always hear about them failing.  And it sounds like
> it is a much more dangerous problem on a trailer
> compared to a car.
>
> Those parts never give me much trouble on my car...

    Good question... my tire trailer is, umm, a little different from most 
( http://planet-torque.com/garage/trailer.html ).  It, obviously, uses car 
tires and car wheel bearings.  They have never been touched in the twelve 
years that this thing has been pulled all over the country by myself, and 
the previous owner.  Meanwhile, everyone with normal tire trailers is 
repacking bearings every year, and replacing them every couple years.

    I don't know why trailer manufacturers use such bad parts on their 
trailers, but they do.  I would pay extra for "car quality" bearings on a 
trailer, if I could.

--
  David Hillman

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Thu Oct 11 08:49:27 2007
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:49:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <86299.5413.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2400a5d40710102130h2517624cr177ff43b9c71b837@mail.gmail.com>
	<86299.5413.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F08E3723B@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>

I remember a copy of that book in my house as I was growing up :)  My
dad would use it to drill me on my math tables.  He said once I had
my math tables down cold (so the answer came with zero hesitation) I
could
buy a slide rule...

I should check and see if my dad still has it.. my son should be
drilled on his math tables :)

Stuart.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Braun [mailto:doug at dougbraun.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:39 PM
> To: David Scheidt; Shop-Talk List
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
>
> BTW, here is another pre-internet math/engineering classic I
> would buy in an instant if the price were
> right:
>
> http://www.wps.com/projects/million/index.html
>
> Doug
>
> --- David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > Yes, it is.  It's also more suitable for killing very large spiders
> > with.  I thought we were talkinng aobut the math tables
> one, which I'm
> > amazed to see is still updated.  A good hand calculator does
> > everything it does.  The other handbooks are still quite useful, if
> > you're in the field.
> >
> > --
> > David Scheidt
> > dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> stuart.a.galt at boeing.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Thu Oct 11 09:39:06 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:39:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
References: <86299.5413.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002001c80c1c$dc48b830$6a29c40a@mde.state.md.us>

Once upon a time, way back before Windows, I wrote a silly little Basic 
program that was a worm crawling around on the computer screen.  It used 
random number generators to locate the worm, and to control the motion of 
the worm.

Turned out to be a fantastic program for demonstrating how orderly the 
random numbers a computer generates are.  The digits might differ, but the 
pattern of number generation always stayed the same for a given computer.

As a simple example, the worm might start anywhere, but would invariably 
curve to the right on a particular computer.  Or perhaps go forward, and 
then reverse itself on another.  Whatever the pattern was, it would 
invariably be repeated.  Eventually the noise would increase until the 
deviation was sufficient that the path was substantially different, but it 
would take a number of iterations before that would show up.

I spent quite a bit of time twiddling with that program trying to get it to 
truly randomize the number selection, but I never succeeded.

Been a long time since I thought of that old worm program and what it showed 
me about how non-random and orderly computers generate random numbers.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
To: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>; "Shop-Talk List" 
<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder


> BTW, here is another pre-internet math/engineering
> classic I would buy in an instant if the price were
> right:
>
> http://www.wps.com/projects/million/index.html
>
> Doug

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Oct 11 09:50:45 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:50:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710102136o3cc14198i976377aa41d5000f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02da01c80a91$ca2de440$5e89acc0$@net>
	<992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2400a5d40710102136o3cc14198i976377aa41d5000f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360710110850g5b50183erd49830f0846fa61@mail.gmail.com>

*I've blown two "Goodyear Marathon Trailer tires" off my 20' enclosed race
car trailer this year . .both tires failed from tread and belt separation
problems.   These tires are 9 or 10 years old and probably don't have over
15 k miles on them.  I think that age was the big factor but also, spending
95% of the time parked has no doubt created some flat spot deformation
that's sure to be rough *
*on the ply and belt integrity.*


On 10/10/07, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/11/07, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> > So generally speaking, why are trailer tires and wheel
> > bearings so lousy?
> > I always hear about them failing.  And it sounds like
> > it is a much more dangerous problem on a trailer
> > compared to a car.

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Thu Oct 11 10:01:00 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:01:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
References: <992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c80c1f$eba5cbd0$6a29c40a@mde.state.md.us>

It's because they sit.

Tires need flexing in order to live.  It's the flexing action that brings up 
the oils and such from inside the tire that keep it alive.  Without that 
flexing, a tire will much more rapidly check and crack on the sidewalls.  No 
kidding, I'm not making this up, it comes from the tire industry.  This is 
why those tires you've had on a car you drove go to heck in a handbasket 
when you park the car for a few months.

Bearings in a car get rotated and heated up by use quite frequently.  This 
drives out moisture and circulates the grease over the metal surfaces. 
Trailer bearings just sit there, undisturbed and cold.  So the condensation 
that does get into them doesn't get driven out.  And as the water patiently 
works through the grease, it starts to rust the metal.  Wet rusty bearings 
don't work well, even if they have good brand names like Timkin.







----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
To: "Ron Schmittou" <rs1121 at earthlink.net>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed


> So generally speaking, why are trailer tires and wheel
> bearings so lousy?
> I always hear about them failing.  And it sounds like
> it is a much more dangerous problem on a trailer
> compared to a car.
>
> Those parts never give me much trouble on my car...

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Oct 11 10:11:21 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:11:21 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Re laser range finder
In-Reply-To: <002001c80c1c$dc48b830$6a29c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <20071011161121.EACR4814.mta16.adelphia.net@randall>

> Turned out to be a fantastic program for demonstrating how 
> orderly the random numbers a computer generates are.

Which is why they are properly called pseudo-random numbers !

However, it's easy to avoid having the pattern look the same.  Just pick up
something that changes each time, like system time in milliseconds, to use
as the seed for each program run.  Assuming your PRN generator works
properly (although many don't), the pattern should not repeat for literally
billions of numbers.

Randall

From chad at linuxeg.com  Thu Oct 11 11:26:43 2007
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:26:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <003d01c80c1f$eba5cbd0$6a29c40a@mde.state.md.us>
References: <992690.9285.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<003d01c80c1f$eba5cbd0$6a29c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <470E5CD3.6060301@linuxeg.com>

Has anyone mentioned "Bernelling"
chad

Nolan wrote:

>It's because they sit.
>
>
>
>Bearings in a car get rotated and heated up by use quite frequently.  This 
>drives out moisture and circulates the grease over the metal surfaces. 
>Trailer bearings just sit there, undisturbed and cold.  So the condensation 
>that does get into them doesn't get driven out.  And as the water patiently 
>works through the grease, it starts to rust the metal.  Wet rusty bearings 
>don't work well, even if they have good brand names like Timkin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Doug Braun" <doug at dougbraun.com>
>To: "Ron Schmittou" <rs1121 at earthlink.net>; <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:29 AM
>Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
>
>
>  
>
>>So generally speaking, why are trailer tires and wheel
>>bearings so lousy?
>>I always hear about them failing.  And it sounds like
>>it is a much more dangerous problem on a trailer
>>compared to a car.
>>
>>Those parts never give me much trouble on my car...
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>chad at linuxeg.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Oct 11 13:44:40 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:44:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <470E5CD3.6060301@linuxeg.com>
Message-ID: <20071011194439.OKUH2495.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

Chadwick E. Labno wrote :
> Has anyone mentioned "Bernelling"

Nope, at least not until now.  Have you had trailer bearings fail by
brinelling ?  

Randall

From mikel at ichips.intel.com  Thu Oct 11 14:31:30 2007
From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:31:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: Message from "Randall" <tr3driver@ca.rr.com>  of "Thu, 11
	Oct 2007 12:44:40 PDT."
	<20071011194439.OKUH2495.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> 
Message-ID: <200710112031.l9BKVUHf007701@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>

>Nope, at least not until now.  Have you had trailer bearings fail by
>brinelling ?  

Nope, but I could see the marks on the bearing races the last time I repacked 
my bearings.  With my el-cheapo utility trailer, there isn't a fine-enough 
adjustment between bearing too tight, and bearing too loose; I've been running 
them on the loose side figuring it was safer than too tight and overheating.
Any thoughts on how to take up the slack without machining custom spacers?

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Oct 11 14:48:59 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:48:59 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <200710112031.l9BKVUHf007701@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
Message-ID: <20071011204900.MIMI26917.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> Nope, but I could see the marks on the bearing races the last 
> time I repacked my bearings.  With my el-cheapo utility 
> trailer, there isn't a fine-enough adjustment between bearing 
> too tight, and bearing too loose; I've been running them on 
> the loose side figuring it was safer than too tight and overheating.
> Any thoughts on how to take up the slack without machining 
> custom spacers?

How does your current adjustment work ?  If it's the usual castellated nut &
cotter pin, you could just drill a second hole for the cotter pin at right
angles to the first one.  Or use a Nyloc nut.

But too loose by only 1/2 flat shouldn't hurt anything.

Marks on the races would be grounds for replacement, in my book.  Better to
replace the bearings a little sooner than wait for them to fail & take the
axle with them.

Randall

From bottorff25 at verizon.net  Thu Oct 11 15:27:56 2007
From: bottorff25 at verizon.net (bottorff25 at verizon.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:27:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
Message-ID: <14595416.9431611192138077214.JavaMail.root@vms246.mailsrvcs.net>

>Any thoughts on how to take up the slack without machining custom spacers?

If it's only a small amount how about grinding the base of the nut instead?

-Damon

From jibjib at att.net  Thu Oct 11 18:20:56 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:20:56 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Uesful books
In-Reply-To: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F08E3723B@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <2400a5d40710102130h2517624cr177ff43b9c71b837@mail.gmail.com><86299.5413.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F08E3723B@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <006701c80c65$c2a4ce70$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Both of my kids use my "Mechanical Engineering Reference Manual for the PE
Exam" book for resolving math issues.

Jack 

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Oct 12 06:07:46 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:07:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tech info page
Message-ID: <1A834CE3BC404D20AB0A7037674A495B@OwnerPC>

Wandering around the information cul-de-sac and found a pretty good tech page
that Surplus Center has up.  It has some good calculators and better tech info
on everything from roller chain to hydraulics to electric motors.  Calculators
for pulley size, hyd cylinder sizing, motor speed and such...

That page is too smart for me !

thought it might be worth a look

http://www.surpluscenter.com/techhelp.asp?UID=2007101206573134&catname=

later
John

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Oct 12 08:45:59 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:45:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] terminal block
Message-ID: <A67ED16B4E5A4967B4AB3B62EB8F1FB3@OwnerPC>

wasn't someone looking for a firewall or bulkhead
terminal block for 12 volt system a few weeks ago ??

some place to connect a few electrical things at one place

I found this this a.m.

http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/cn-1.shtml

john

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Fri Oct 12 09:38:45 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:38:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] tech info page
In-Reply-To: <1A834CE3BC404D20AB0A7037674A495B@OwnerPC>
References: <1A834CE3BC404D20AB0A7037674A495B@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <000901c80ce5$fa1603d0$6501a8c0@proteus457>

Boy, that takes me back!  From '81-'83 I worked in a convenience store right
across the street from the Surplus Center (yes, the same one).  It was sort
of a cross between a Cabela's or Bass Pro Shop and an Army/Navy surplus
store, with a lot of non-military mechanical and electronic surplus thrown
in.  I used to like to go wander around in that place because you never knew
what you were going to find.

It's been 20 years since I moved from Lincoln, and though I'm only 50 miles
away (Omaha) I haven't been back to the Surplus Center in that time.  I
wonder what sort of a store they've become.  I'll have to see if I can stop
by there next time I'm in Lincoln.

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: john niolon
> 
> Wandering around the information cul-de-sac and found a pretty good tech
> page
> that Surplus Center has up.  It has some good calculators and better tech
> info
> on everything from roller chain to hydraulics to electric motors.
> Calculators
> for pulley size, hyd cylinder sizing, motor speed and such...
> 
> That page is too smart for me !
> 
> thought it might be worth a look
> 
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/techhelp.asp?UID=2007101206573134&catname=
> 
> later
> John

From jem at milleredp.com  Fri Oct 12 12:14:23 2007
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:14:23 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] terminal block
Message-ID: <470FB97F.9000808@milleredp.com>

> I found this this a.m.
> 
> http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/cn-1.shtml

One might also note that if you're venturing into the Pick-n-pull yards
  '82-late '90s Saabs have a very useful + junction block located
variously on the battery tray, fender, etc.  Plastic shell, buss-bar w/2
M6 bolts, snap-closed cover.

John.

From chad at linuxeg.com  Fri Oct 12 18:54:21 2007
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:54:21 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trailer advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20071011194439.OKUH2495.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071011194439.OKUH2495.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <4710173D.60506@linuxeg.com>

No, I have not but I'm curious how common it is in trailers,
many of which spend the majority of their lives in one place.

 
Randall wrote:

>Chadwick E. Labno wrote :
>  
>
>>Has anyone mentioned "Bernelling"
>>    
>>
>
>Nope, at least not until now.  Have you had trailer bearings fail by
>brinelling ?  
>
>Randall

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Fri Oct 12 18:56:02 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:56:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] terminal block
In-Reply-To: <470FB97F.9000808@milleredp.com>
References: <470FB97F.9000808@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <471017A2.1050804@hornesystemstx.com>

I believe the 240/260 series Volvo's also had a similar buss bar. It's 
been too many years since I had one to remember how the insulator was on 
it, but they did have a buss bar. Driver's side inner fender, just 
behind the battery.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake John Miller:
>> I found this this a.m.
>>
>> http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/cn-1.shtml
>>     
>
> One might also note that if you're venturing into the Pick-n-pull yards
>   '82-late '90s Saabs have a very useful + junction block located
> variously on the battery tray, fender, etc.  Plastic shell, buss-bar w/2
> M6 bolts, snap-closed cover.
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Oct 13 17:39:33 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:39:33 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] tech info page
In-Reply-To: <1A834CE3BC404D20AB0A7037674A495B@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <20071013233933.SUYH26917.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

john niolon wrote :

> Wandering around the information cul-de-sac and found a 
> pretty good tech page that Surplus Center has up.

Use it with care, though.  I found a mistake on the very first page I looked
at.  Under "motor relationships", single phase amps knowing kW, should be
(kW * 1000) / (E * PF).

For the question I'm pondering : Does anyone know how to increase the
no-load speed of a parallel-wound DC motor without rewinding or changing the
supply voltage ?  ISTR there was a way to do it, but I don't remember what
it was and I can't find my old motor theory book.

Randall

From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Oct 14 08:19:17 2007
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:19:17 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood Rust Dissolver
Message-ID: <47122565.2000706@comcast.net>

   FWIW,  Eastwood  has  a  "special"  (probably  means  it's going for a
   normal, retail
   price) on a non-acid rust dissolver:
   http://tinyurl.com/2o3z9p
   I've  never  used it, and have no financial interest in Eastwood--I'll
   buy there if I
   can't  find  it  cheaper someplace else, or it's a unique product--but
   the topic of
   rust  removal  comes  up  occasionally so I thought I'd pass it along.
   Note this is
   a "one day" special.
   bs
***************************************************************
Bob Spidell         San Jose, CA        bspidell at comcast.net
'67 Austin-Healey 3000             '56 Austin-Healey 100M
***************************************************************

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Oct 14 15:55:41 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:55:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I've got a weed wacker that's in need of some TLC.  There are two hoses 
going to the fuel tank.  On the inside of the tank, I found (separated 
from the hoses), a sucker looking thing that would appear to let fuel or 
air into the tank but not let it back out, along with a piece of hose 
with a weighted end (again, this seems to have broken off from one of the 
pieces that comes into the tank).

If I blow or suck on the hose attached to the weighed end, no flow. 
Presumably this is a (clogged) fuel pickup, right?  Can these be bought 
somewhere?

The sucker thingy also has a tear in it (presumably why it was loose in 
the tank).  Can those be bought somewhere?

Anything else I should plan on doing, other than taking apart and cleaning 
the carb?

Thanks!

Mark

(I'm half tempted to just junk this thing and get a new one, but that 
seems pretty wasteful.  Its in pretty good shape overall other than these 
things I think?)

From ericm at lne.com  Sun Oct 14 17:31:35 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:31:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com>

The weighted end hose is the pickup.  But its a diaphram ("pumper") carb.
Crankcase pulses move a diaphram which pumps fuel into
the carb.  I don't think you should be able to blow through it.

The split hose would be a problem though!

Eric


On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 05:55:41PM -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> I've got a weed wacker that's in need of some TLC.  There are two hoses 
> going to the fuel tank.  On the inside of the tank, I found (separated 
> from the hoses), a sucker looking thing that would appear to let fuel or 
> air into the tank but not let it back out, along with a piece of hose 
> with a weighted end (again, this seems to have broken off from one of the 
> pieces that comes into the tank).
> 
> If I blow or suck on the hose attached to the weighed end, no flow. 
> Presumably this is a (clogged) fuel pickup, right?  Can these be bought 
> somewhere?
> 
> The sucker thingy also has a tear in it (presumably why it was loose in 
> the tank).  Can those be bought somewhere?
> 
> Anything else I should plan on doing, other than taking apart and cleaning 
> the carb?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark
> 
> (I'm half tempted to just junk this thing and get a new one, but that 
> seems pretty wasteful.  Its in pretty good shape overall other than these 
> things I think?)

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Oct 14 21:13:18 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:13:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142312040.20622@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, ericm at lne.com wrote:
> The weighted end hose is the pickup.  But its a diaphram ("pumper") 
> carb. Crankcase pulses move a diaphram which pumps fuel into the carb. 
> I don't think you should be able to blow through it.
>
> The split hose would be a problem though!

The pump is in the pickup?  Or in the carb?  I can't blow through the hose 
connected to the weighted pickup...

Its all pretty crusty though, so I'll be replacing it anyway!

Mark

From ericm at lne.com  Sun Oct 14 21:30:00 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:30:00 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142312040.20622@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142312040.20622@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20071015033000.GC10089@slack.lne.com>

The pump is in the carb.

I'm pretty sure that on a properly working one you
shouldn't be able to blow through the pumper and into the carb.
There's a couple tiny reed valves in the pump that should
block everything off.

Eric


On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 11:13:18PM -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, ericm at lne.com wrote:
> > The weighted end hose is the pickup.  But its a diaphram ("pumper") 
> > carb. Crankcase pulses move a diaphram which pumps fuel into the carb. 
> > I don't think you should be able to blow through it.
> >
> > The split hose would be a problem though!
> 
> The pump is in the pickup?  Or in the carb?  I can't blow through the hose 
> connected to the weighted pickup...

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Oct 14 21:38:05 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:38:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <20071015033000.GC10089@slack.lne.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142312040.20622@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071015033000.GC10089@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142337030.28564@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, ericm at lne.com wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that on a properly working one you shouldn't be able to 
> blow through the pumper and into the carb. There's a couple tiny reed 
> valves in the pump that should block everything off.

Ok.  but I'm blowing the other way, through what I assume is the fuel 
pickup.  No carb involved.  That should allow air to pass, right?

Mark

From ericm at lne.com  Sun Oct 14 21:49:19 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:49:19 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142337030.28564@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142312040.20622@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071015033000.GC10089@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142337030.28564@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20071015034919.GD10089@slack.lne.com>

On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 11:38:05PM -0400, Mark Andy wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, ericm at lne.com wrote:
> >I'm pretty sure that on a properly working one you shouldn't be able to 
> >blow through the pumper and into the carb. There's a couple tiny reed 
> >valves in the pump that should block everything off.
> 
> Ok.  but I'm blowing the other way, through what I assume is the fuel 
> pickup.  No carb involved.  That should allow air to pass, right?

The pump is part of the carb.  I don't think that you can
blow through a properly working pump.

Eric

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Oct 14 23:38:49 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 01:38:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <20071015034919.GD10089@slack.lne.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142312040.20622@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071015033000.GC10089@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142337030.28564@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071015034919.GD10089@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710150133590.32525@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, ericm at lne.com wrote:
>> Ok.  but I'm blowing the other way, through what I assume is the fuel
>> pickup.  No carb involved.  That should allow air to pass, right?
>
> The pump is part of the carb.  I don't think that you can
> blow through a properly working pump.

:-)  Ok, there's a weighted fuel pickup (presumably) thing in the tank. 
That's connected by a fuel line to the carb (and/or pump that's part of 
the carb).  Right?

Now cut the fuel line in the middle.  Take the part of the line that's 
still attached to the weighted pickup thing, and try to blow air down the 
line, then through the pickup.  The part of the line that's attached to 
the carb/pump isn't involved at all.

That's what I'm doing.  Should the weighted pickup thing in the tank be 
able to be blown through?

Mark

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Oct 15 05:20:14 2007
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:20:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <002101c80f1d$5ef14ec0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Mark Andy
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:56 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
Mark I had a similar problem last spring....I screwed around with it for
hours and finally went to HD and bought a "throw away" Homelite for about
$70 and it is working fine. When it starts giving me trouble it's next
destination will be the dumpster and I'll head for HD again.

My son has convinced me that the way to keep any two cycle engine running
well is to empty the tank when you are done and run the gas out of the carb.
He says even using "Stabile" doesn't work....just running all the gas out.

Howdy,

I've got a weed wacker that's in need of some TLC.  There are two hoses
going to the fuel tank.  On the inside of the tank, I found (separated
from the hoses), a sucker looking thing that would appear to let fuel or
air into the tank but not let it back out, along with a piece of hose
with a weighted end (again, this seems to have broken off from one of the
pieces that comes into the tank).

If I blow or suck on the hose attached to the weighed end, no flow.
Presumably this is a (clogged) fuel pickup, right?  Can these be bought
somewhere?

The sucker thingy also has a tear in it (presumably why it was loose in
the tank).  Can those be bought somewhere?

Anything else I should plan on doing, other than taking apart and cleaning
the carb?

Thanks!

Mark

(I'm half tempted to just junk this thing and get a new one, but that
seems pretty wasteful.  Its in pretty good shape overall other than these
things I think?) _______________________________________________
gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Mon Oct 15 05:50:06 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:50:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
In-Reply-To: <002101c80f1d$5ef14ec0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <002101c80f1d$5ef14ec0$0301a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <08D800F7883D4219BDB7248F0B8D3619@OwnerPC>

My son has convinced me that the way to keep any two cycle engine running
 well is to empty the tank when you are done and run the gas out of the carb.
 He says even using "Stabile" doesn't work....just running all the gas out.


this is what I do EVERY time.  I've got a Yazoo weed eater that I bought new
in 1980.  I can't kill it.
 When I'm thru with my trimming the gas gets poured back in the can and I run
it dry.  Hasn't failed
to start in all this time.  I do the same thing on my 4 cycle stuff too.  I've
added an inline fuel filter
and fuel cutoff on all my mowers, edgers, etc. (about 7 bucks per machine.
Every time I finish I cut
the fuel source as I'm pushing it back to the shed.. My 20 yr old Yazoo big
wheel will start on the 2-3
pull after sitting all winter.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Oct 15 06:33:50 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:33:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] weedwacker tech
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710141750350.13575@mephisto.banklogic.net><20071014233135.GB10089@slack.lne.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142312040.20622@mephisto.banklogic.net><20071015033000.GC10089@slack.lne.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0710142337030.28564@mephisto.banklogic.net><20071015034919.GD10089@slack.lne.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710150133590.32525@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <007601c80f27$a3e23030$6e01a8c0@KARL>

> :-)  Ok, there's a weighted fuel pickup (presumably) thing in the tank.
> That's connected by a fuel line to the carb (and/or pump that's part of
> the carb).  Right?
>
> Now cut the fuel line in the middle.  Take the part of the line that's
> still attached to the weighted pickup thing, and try to blow air down the
> line, then through the pickup.  The part of the line that's attached to
> the carb/pump isn't involved at all.
>
> That's what I'm doing.  Should the weighted pickup thing in the tank be
> able to be blown through?


Yes - you should be able to blow through it.  It's usually a porous sintered 
metal piece.

Karl 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Oct 15 09:40:33 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:40:33 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Eastwood Rust Dissolver
References: <47122565.2000706@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c80f41$ba0e4f50$6e01a8c0@KARL>

They're doing daily specials just this week - today is a throatless shear 
for $169.99, regularly $199.99

China must be overstocked  ;-)

Karl



>   FWIW,  Eastwood  has  a  "special"  (probably  means  it's going for a
>   normal, retail
>   price) on a non-acid rust dissolver:
>   http://tinyurl.com/2o3z9p
>   I've  never  used it, and have no financial interest in Eastwood--I'll
>   buy there if I
>   can't  find  it  cheaper someplace else, or it's a unique product--but
>   the topic of
>   rust  removal  comes  up  occasionally so I thought I'd pass it along.
>   Note this is
>   a "one day" special.
>   bs
> ***************************************************************
> Bob Spidell         San Jose, CA        bspidell at comcast.net
> '67 Austin-Healey 3000             '56 Austin-Healey 100M

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 11:29:34 2007
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:29:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Empty Trailer going from Cedar Rapids,
 IA to Indianapolis, IN  10/19
Message-ID: <abb8688a0710151029p476638cdkf2cc5a8db2e42029@mail.gmail.com>

I'm taking my 16' open flatbed trailer from Cedar Rapids, IA to
Indianapolis, IN on Friday 10/19 to pick up a couple lawn mowers.
Anyone got something needs hauled for a small share of gas money?

John Innis
NASS#268
Cedar Rapids, IA
Murphy, '76 Spit 1500

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Oct 15 12:29:19 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:29:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

So I went to HD and Lowe's looking for weed whacker parts.  I didn't find 
any parts (surprise), but I did look at trimmers...

I'm thinking I should maybe just get a new trimmer, and had some 
questions.

First, I'd much prefer to have a trimmer that didn't have a gas motor on 
it.  But I'm too far away from an outlet for lots of the trimming.

They have cordless electrical trimmers.  How much do they suck?  How long 
can you trim on a battery?  The one I was looking at was 18V, but I forget 
the brand.

If I go with a gas motor, do I want to stick with 2 cycle or go to 4 
cycle?  4 cycle means I don't need to deal with mixing/keeping 2 stroke 
gas around (which I don't use for anything else), so that would be nice. 
Any issues with the 4 cycle engines?

I also liked the attachments on some of them... I think Lowe's had the 
troybuilt stuff, and you could just plug in an edger or a limb cutter. 
That's nice.  Any issues with this approach, or is it pretty 
straightforward?

On the trimmer itself, straight shaft or bent shaft?  Is one better than 
the other across the board?

Finally, any recommendations here?  If I go gas, I'd like to have one that 
can also be an edger & perhaps a shrub trimmer.  I'd like one that handles 
neglect, particularly related to motor upkeep, well.

Thanks!

Mark

From chad at linuxeg.com  Mon Oct 15 12:47:33 2007
From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:47:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4713B5C5.8010502@linuxeg.com>

Ordered a Ryobi string trimmer and brushcutter from HD's web site.
Got it assembled it started it up (with fresh gas and supplied oil)
cut - with the brushcutter attachment - for maybe a half hour.
Shut it down for the day, next day tried to start it, no luck.
It is under warranty but have not had the time to take it to
the repair center - can't take it to HD, have to go to Ryobi
service center - so it may be something simple and easy
to correct it just the idea of buying something and the seller
tells you where to go. This is my experience with HD/Ryobi
for what it's worth.
chad


Mark Andy wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>So I went to HD and Lowe's looking for weed whacker parts.  I didn't find 
>any parts (surprise), but I did look at trimmers...
>
>I'm thinking I should maybe just get a new trimmer, and had some 
>questions.
>
>First, I'd much prefer to have a trimmer that didn't have a gas motor on 
>it.  But I'm too far away from an outlet for lots of the trimming.
>
>They have cordless electrical trimmers.  How much do they suck?  How long 
>can you trim on a battery?  The one I was looking at was 18V, but I forget 
>the brand.
>
>If I go with a gas motor, do I want to stick with 2 cycle or go to 4 
>cycle?  4 cycle means I don't need to deal with mixing/keeping 2 stroke 
>gas around (which I don't use for anything else), so that would be nice. 
>Any issues with the 4 cycle engines?
>
>I also liked the attachments on some of them... I think Lowe's had the 
>troybuilt stuff, and you could just plug in an edger or a limb cutter. 
>That's nice.  Any issues with this approach, or is it pretty 
>straightforward?
>
>On the trimmer itself, straight shaft or bent shaft?  Is one better than 
>the other across the board?
>
>Finally, any recommendations here?  If I go gas, I'd like to have one that 
>can also be an edger & perhaps a shrub trimmer.  I'd like one that handles 
>neglect, particularly related to motor upkeep, well.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Mark
>_______________________________________________
>chad at linuxeg.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Mon Oct 15 12:59:19 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:59:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <001601c80f5d$7e52a620$6601a8c0@proteus457>

I had a couple of Ryobi 2-stroke trimmers with the click-link attachments.
They were always hard to start and I'd get 1-2 years out of them before
something broke on the motor unit.  I got tired of that so about three years
ago I bought the Troy-Built 4-stroke unit from Lowe's and I love it.  It
always starts on either the first or second pull (provided I pumped the
primer bulb a few times).  I've had zero issues with it, and I found that
almost all of my Ryobi click-link attachments work with the Troy-Built motor
unit.  The only one that didn't was the edger -- the square drive shaft on
the edger seems to be shorter than the shaft on the other attachments, so it
doesn't quite engage the drive shaft on the motor unit.

Got rid of my Lawnboy recently so I'm done with breathing 2-stroke oil, and
I'm loving it!

Mike Frerichs


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Andy
> 
> Howdy,
> 
snip
>
> If I go with a gas motor, do I want to stick with 2 cycle or go to 4
> cycle?  4 cycle means I don't need to deal with mixing/keeping 2 stroke
> gas around (which I don't use for anything else), so that would be nice.
> Any issues with the 4 cycle engines?
> 
> I also liked the attachments on some of them... I think Lowe's had the
> troybuilt stuff, and you could just plug in an edger or a limb cutter.
> That's nice.  Any issues with this approach, or is it pretty
> straightforward?
> 
> On the trimmer itself, straight shaft or bent shaft?  Is one better than
> the other across the board?
> 
> Finally, any recommendations here?  If I go gas, I'd like to have one that
> can also be an edger & perhaps a shrub trimmer.  I'd like one that handles
> neglect, particularly related to motor upkeep, well.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark

From robzatz at gis.net  Mon Oct 15 12:59:56 2007
From: robzatz at gis.net (Rob Zatz)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:59:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4713B8AC.6030502@gis.net>

I recently had to replace an older gas trimmer (Craftsman) and decided 
to try the Black and Decker 18V cordless trimmer. We have an eight acre 
property that is rural and doesn't require our lawn to keep up with the 
neighbors. I have a carpal tunnel type disorder and have found the 
weight and vibration of the gas trimmers wrecks my wrists for days.

Anyway, I'm happy enough with the B&D cordless trimmer that I bought the 
pole saw and pruner that also use the same batteries. The trimmer came 
with two batteries; each lasts about 20 minutes. It cuts a bit slower 
than the gas one did, largely I think to the single string. B&D string 
refills are pricy but you can easily refill with bulk string for a lot 
less dollars.

The quietness is appreciated, its lightweight, and I like not messing 
with 2 stroke premix.  I found Amazon had the best price on them.  I use 
it after mowing on small areas at a time, rather than trying to do the 
whole property at once. The other pieces I bought work well and each 
came with their own battery, so I now have 3 chargers and 4 batteries.

YMMV,

Roib

Mark Andy wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>So I went to HD and Lowe's looking for weed whacker parts.  I didn't find 
>any parts (surprise), but I did look at trimmers...
>
>I'm thinking I should maybe just get a new trimmer, and had some 
>questions.
>
>First, I'd much prefer to have a trimmer that didn't have a gas motor on 
>it.  But I'm too far away from an outlet for lots of the trimming.
>
>They have cordless electrical trimmers.  How much do they suck?  How long 
>can you trim on a battery?  The one I was looking at was 18V, but I forget 
>the brand.
>
>If I go with a gas motor, do I want to stick with 2 cycle or go to 4 
>cycle?  4 cycle means I don't need to deal with mixing/keeping 2 stroke 
>gas around (which I don't use for anything else), so that would be nice. 
>Any issues with the 4 cycle engines?
>
>I also liked the attachments on some of them... I think Lowe's had the 
>troybuilt stuff, and you could just plug in an edger or a limb cutter. 
>That's nice.  Any issues with this approach, or is it pretty 
>straightforward?
>
>On the trimmer itself, straight shaft or bent shaft?  Is one better than 
>the other across the board?
>
>Finally, any recommendations here?  If I go gas, I'd like to have one that 
>can also be an edger & perhaps a shrub trimmer.  I'd like one that handles 
>neglect, particularly related to motor upkeep, well.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Mark
>_______________________________________________
>robzatz at gis.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 13:06:42 2007
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:06:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
Message-ID: <441250190710151206p7d1dc56fy3026b48c48ca908@mail.gmail.com>

Kind of a stupid questions but is anyone using an oil catch pan that they
really like?  I used to have a Rubbermaid one that was not bad, but since it
was so messy I got rid of it before they loaded the moving van.  I have
since purchased one that has a spout that bends down at the end.  This thing
always is leaking a couple of drops of oil.  It tends to always drip so I am
going to replace this catch pan. So does anyone have a catch pan that they
really like?   Want one that will reduce oil spillage.

This pan will be used under a car that is on jack stands so it can't be to
high.

-g

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Oct 15 13:31:00 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:31:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
Message-ID: <OFFC343DE1.08157D5D-ON85257375.006B3560-85257375.006B3563@mail.megageek.com>

I can't say enough GOOD about my Ryobi!

I bought it from Horrible freight over 10 years ago. (When it was the ONLY
trimmer with the "quick attach" system.)  I rarely use it, but it always
starts right away.  I have about 5 different attachments and they are work
OK (some better than others*.)

My buddy got the 4 cycle, better power, but he can't use all the
attachments because the unit needs to be held level.

* These attachmens I have and 1 to 5 scale (5 being best.)
Vaccum-2
Tree pruner-4
blower-4
extension poles-5
hedge trimmers-4
My buddy has the rototiller and edger.  they are only good for the lights
of work.



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Oct 15 14:36:16 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:36:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <004d01c80f6b$152f5540$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

We bought a B&D cordless weedwacker. 18V, IIRC. The batteries will 
last about 30 minutes each - it comes with 2 batteries. It is not the 
heaviest duty trimmer but it does the job for us. The length of the 
unit can be adjusted (useful as I am 6'1". my wife is 5'2") and the 
trimmer head can be rotated so it can be used as an edger.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Andy"

> First, I'd much prefer to have a trimmer that didn't have a gas 
> motor on
> it.  But I'm too far away from an outlet for lots of the trimming.
>
> They have cordless electrical trimmers.  How much do they suck?  How 
> long
> can you trim on a battery?  The one I was looking at was 18V, but I 
> forget
> the brand.

From mikel at ichips.intel.com  Mon Oct 15 14:28:55 2007
From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:28:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: Message from "Bill Gilroy" <wmgilroy@gmail.com>  of "Mon,
	15 Oct 2007 12:06:42 PDT."
	<441250190710151206p7d1dc56fy3026b48c48ca908@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200710152028.l9FKStQ4015242@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>

I have one by Wedco (Wedgeco?  Something like that; it's molded into the pan).
It's nice in that it holds over 13 qts (don't know exact amount, but more than 
a 911 contains (13 qt) anyway), has a very wide opening so it can catch oil 
from the drain plug and filter simultaneously on my Jeep, and has a molded 
indent near the handle which is convenient for holding the drain plug (I'm 
sure that's not the intended purpose though).  It's very shallow (fits under 
the 911) and has a drain spout that fits perfectly into gallon milk jugs for 
recycling.  It does drip from the spout, but I usually let it drain into a 
milk jug overnight, and thus no dripping by then.
I like it enough that I'm about to order another one (the bottom is getting 
thin from sliding it around on the ground so much over the years.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Oct 15 14:33:27 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:33:27 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
References: <441250190710151206p7d1dc56fy3026b48c48ca908@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c80f6a$a5107b90$6e01a8c0@KARL>

I have a Blitz drain pan - the drain pan is one side of the flat, round jug. 
You lay it down pan side up, remove the plug and the relief port, and drain 
your oil.  After draining your oil, wipe up the drain pan side, put the plug 
in, and the oil is easy to store (it'll hold a few gallons) and eventually 
pour it into whatever you use to recycle the oil.

The funny tapered plug cracked some years ago and I called Blits - they 
mailed me 3 or 4 immediately - no charge.

I also bought Blitz's heavy Rhino Ramps a few of years ago - the first time 
I've ever used ramps.  They're great, and hold the Suburban without scaring 
me.  Again, I had a problem (really due to my nasty old deteriorated asphalt 
driveway) and needed the anti-skid feet.  A call and I got a new set no 
charge in a couple of days.  And on my new driveway they work just as they 
should.

I've had nothing but good luck with Blitz stuff.

Karl

PS - after all that, did you mean a drain pan like I answered, or a catch 
pan ?.  Blitz (again...) sells a simple galvanized steel drip tray for about 
$7.00.



> Kind of a stupid questions but is anyone using an oil catch pan that they
> really like?  I used to have a Rubbermaid one that was not bad, but since 
> it
> was so messy I got rid of it before they loaded the moving van.  I have
> since purchased one that has a spout that bends down at the end.  This 
> thing
> always is leaking a couple of drops of oil.  It tends to always drip so I 
> am
> going to replace this catch pan. So does anyone have a catch pan that they
> really like?   Want one that will reduce oil spillage.
>
> This pan will be used under a car that is on jack stands so it can't be to
> high.
>
> -g

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 14:55:35 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:55:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <200710152028.l9FKStQ4015242@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
References: <wmgilroy@gmail.com>
	<441250190710151206p7d1dc56fy3026b48c48ca908@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710152028.l9FKStQ4015242@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710151355o67ce97d3gdf5c297a54a48d5e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/15/07, Mike Lee <mikel at ichips.intel.com> wrote:
> I have one by Wedco (Wedgeco?  Something like that; it's molded into the pan).
> It's nice in that it holds over 13 qts (don't know exact amount, but more than
> a 911 contains (13 qt) anyway), has a very wide opening so it can catch oil
> from the drain plug and filter simultaneously on my Jeep, and has a molded
> indent near the handle which is convenient for holding the drain plug (I'm
> sure that's not the intended purpose though).  It's very shallow (fits under
> the 911) and has a drain spout that fits perfectly into gallon milk jugs for
> recycling.  It does drip from the spout, but I usually let it drain into a
> milk jug overnight, and thus no dripping by then.
> I like it enough that I'm about to order another one (the bottom is getting
> thin from sliding it around on the ground so much over the years.

If it's the one I've got, it holds 16 quarts.  That, of course, isn't
enough for the highest capacity thing I have to drain (tractor
tranny/pto combination, ~6 gallons.).
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Oct 16 06:07:47 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:07:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
Message-ID: <OF2A2440E3.874DC052-ON85257376.0042A189-85257376.0042A18C@mail.megageek.com>

I have one that I got from "Kar Parts" here in NJ.  It doesn't have any
name or anything on it.  I got it back in the late 80s when they would only
take waste oil in their containers.  It sits about 3" off the ground and
holds about 5 gals of oil!  I fits under even my Harley when it's on its
sidestand!

I also have a big rolling one for cars when they are on my lift, but the
old Kar Parts one is the one I use under cars.

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From pete at partnercomm.com  Tue Oct 16 09:52:22 2007
From: pete at partnercomm.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:52:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710161136280.29346-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>

I purchased a Toro 4-stroke "trimmer" from Lowe's about 4 years ago, and
have since then bought the pole saw, blower and rototiller attachments. I 
have never regretted that decision.

Reliable, develops enough power, no 2-stroke stink, and easy oil change.  
Flexible and just works fine. If only I could hook it up to mow my yard,
so I don't have to buy a regular lawn mower (I use a reel mower right now
that the wife hates)...

Rototiller attachment can be a bit difficult to use. Were it more 
controllable, it would be quite effective. My rocky soil probably doesn't 
help much in that regard...

-Peter

--
Peter Murray (N3IXY)
Oak Hill, VA

From pete at partnercomm.com  Tue Oct 16 14:31:05 2007
From: pete at partnercomm.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:31:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710161136280.29346-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710161630260.29346-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>

That should be Troy-Bilt, not Toro....

-Peter

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Peter Murray wrote:

> I purchased a Toro 4-stroke "trimmer" from Lowe's about 4 years ago, and
> have since then bought the pole saw, blower and rototiller attachments. I 
> have never regretted that decision.
> 
> Reliable, develops enough power, no 2-stroke stink, and easy oil change.  
> Flexible and just works fine. If only I could hook it up to mow my yard,
> so I don't have to buy a regular lawn mower (I use a reel mower right now
> that the wife hates)...
> 
> Rototiller attachment can be a bit difficult to use. Were it more 
> controllable, it would be quite effective. My rocky soil probably doesn't 
> help much in that regard...
> 
> -Peter
> 
> --
> Peter Murray (N3IXY)
> Oak Hill, VA
> _______________________________________________
> pete at partnercomm.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Tue Oct 16 15:57:22 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:57:22 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] getting tile and mortar off a slab?
Message-ID: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I'm trying to break up the tile floor on the new house to install the new tile and wood flooring.

damn.

this stuff is on there like nothing I've ever seen, and it's only slightly thinner and a satillo tile.  I'm getting up the tile--slowly, but a lot of the mortar is proving permanent.  won't yield to a hammer, and I'm afraid too much more pounding is just going to gouge the slab.  chisels and scrapers might as well be made of plastic.

any ideas on how to get back to a smooth slab?  muriatic acid?  I thought of renting a grinder if I could, but some of the bathrooms are probably too small for it to do much good in there.

thanks in advance.

scott

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Oct 16 16:30:49 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:30:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] getting tile and mortar off a slab?
In-Reply-To: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47153B99.2090008@hornesystemstx.com>

Scott,

Sounds like you are trying all the things that have worked for me in the 
past. I generally use a chisel to get the tile up, then just hit what is 
left of the mortar with a large hammer, no chisel. Then finish off what 
is left with a chisel and hammer.

I doubt any acid would take it off, so grinding may be your only choice. 
It will be really dusty, so I hope you haven't moved in yet! For the 
smaller areas where the grinder won't fit, try a body grinder with a 
carbide wheel on it, it might help out. You also might contact some of 
the local tile folks to find out what they would use to get the concrete 
flat again.

Good luck.

Peace,
Pat

 Thusly spake scott.hall at comcast.net:
> I'm trying to break up the tile floor on the new house to install the new tile and wood flooring.
>
> damn.
>
> this stuff is on there like nothing I've ever seen, and it's only slightly thinner and a satillo tile.  I'm getting up the tile--slowly, but a lot of the mortar is proving permanent.  won't yield to a hammer, and I'm afraid too much more pounding is just going to gouge the slab.  chisels and scrapers might as well be made of plastic.
>
> any ideas on how to get back to a smooth slab?  muriatic acid?  I thought of renting a grinder if I could, but some of the bathrooms are probably too small for it to do much good in there.
>
> thanks in advance.
>
> scott
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com  Tue Oct 16 16:48:40 2007
From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:48:40 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] getting tile and mortar off a slab?
In-Reply-To: <47153B99.2090008@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
	<47153B99.2090008@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <C8D2620C74DE75488C5FDFBDB9475D6F08E37B17@XCH-NW-7V1.nw.nos.boeing.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Horne [mailto:roadsters at hornesystemstx.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 3:31 PM
> To: scott.hall at comcast.net
> Cc: Shop-Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] getting tile and mortar off a slab?
>
> Scott,
>
> Sounds like you are trying all the things that have worked
> for me in the past. I generally use a chisel to get the tile
> up, then just hit what is left of the mortar with a large
> hammer, no chisel. Then finish off what is left with a chisel
> and hammer.
>
> I doubt any acid would take it off, so grinding may be your
> only choice.
> It will be really dusty, so I hope you haven't moved in yet!
> For the smaller areas where the grinder won't fit, try a body
> grinder with a carbide wheel on it, it might help out. You
> also might contact some of the local tile folks to find out
> what they would use to get the concrete flat again.

Trim a little bit off the bottom of the doors and let
the new floor be taller?  :)

Stuart

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 16 17:51:15 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:51:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] getting tile and mortar off a slab?
In-Reply-To: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <006f01c8104f$71c6e4a0$5554ade0$@net>

We had this same issue - I finally rolled the compressor into the house and
used the air hammer with a large flat blade chisel.  The impact of the air
hammer really made it come up a lot easier - a big tip on the dust is to get
a large fan and put A/C filters on it to try and catch it as it comes up -
you can move it around so it is sucking where you are working, this also
worked very well to keep it tolerable.

Good Luck!

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
scott.hall at comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 4:57 PM
To: Shop-Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Shop-talk] getting tile and mortar off a slab?

I'm trying to break up the tile floor on the new house to install the new
tile and wood flooring.

damn.

this stuff is on there like nothing I've ever seen, and it's only slightly
thinner and a satillo tile.  I'm getting up the tile--slowly, but a lot of
the mortar is proving permanent.  won't yield to a hammer, and I'm afraid
too much more pounding is just going to gouge the slab.  chisels and
scrapers might as well be made of plastic.

any ideas on how to get back to a smooth slab?  muriatic acid?  I thought of
renting a grinder if I could, but some of the bathrooms are probably too
small for it to do much good in there.

thanks in advance.

scott
_______________________________________________
rs1121 at earthlink.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Oct 17 11:31:03 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:31:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] point of service water heaters.
Message-ID: <OF6FA8D50C.1D0A6833-ON85257377.00603A04-85257377.00603A07@mail.megageek.com>

OK, I'm just getting my round tuit to add the sink to the garage.  I
already have a cold water line run and was planning on adding a "point of
service" water heater.  These are the little heaters that have a small (4
or 6 gal) tank and are designed for these type of installations.

As always, before the buy, anyone have any comments on them?  Things to
look for?  Local big box has a GE 6 Gal for $195 and a Ariston 4 GAL for
$160.

Is 4 gal enough for a garage sink?  Is there a cheaper source of these?

TIA


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Oct 17 14:53:31 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:53:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] point of service water heaters.
In-Reply-To: <OF6FA8D50C.1D0A6833-ON85257377.00603A04-85257377.00603A07@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF6FA8D50C.1D0A6833-ON85257377.00603A04-85257377.00603A07@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c810ff$c6e2db00$54a89100$@mele@usermail.com>

I did a little blurb a while back on my tankless heaters.
Small sink in garage is a great application.  
I have a German job (Stiebel Eltron?) in my outbuilding.. .20A at 220V means 12
ga wire (under 75 or 100 ft, if I recall; 10 g if longer...whoever
remembers, please confirm).  Perfect for this kind of app. 
I believe the cost was $169, from Plumbers Supply on line.  I can look up
details if you need them...not with me now.

Paul


OK, I'm just getting my round tuit to add the sink to the garage.  I
already have a cold water line run and was planning on adding a "point of
service" water heater.  These are the little heaters that have a small (4
or 6 gal) tank and are designed for these type of installations.

As always, before the buy, anyone have any comments on them?  Things to
look for?  Local big box has a GE 6 Gal for $195 and a Ariston 4 GAL for
$160.

Is 4 gal enough for a garage sink?  Is there a cheaper source of these?

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Oct 17 14:59:31 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:59:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] point of service water heaters.
Message-ID: <OF5576B364.377FFC63-ON85257377.00734FFF-85257377.00735002@mail.megageek.com>

I was hoping to find a unit that didn't need to have 220volt,high amp line.
Most of the tanked type are 120.  I already have power there, but I don't
want to have to run a 220 line over 100' (power is clear on the other side
of the shop and I would have to go up and over.

But I do like the idea of not having to keep water warm all the time.  Are
there 110v units that work tankless?  (I don't need to worry to much about
efficently as this is a very infrequent use sink.)



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Oct 17 15:14:38 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:14:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Ok, time to get back going on my garage rebuild again...  Its an attached 
two car garage.

I'd been planning on heating it with a natural gas hot air blower like the 
Hot Dawg or similar, probably with a powered side vent.

I might still do that.

But our natural gas prices are insane compared to what they used to be, 
and a recent thing from the gas company showed that electric costs are 
about the same as gas for heating.  Since it came from the gas company, I 
figure they're going to underestimate if anything...

So what's the scoop on electric heaters appropriate for around the clock 
heating in a garage?  I'd like to keep the temp around 55 deg or so in the 
winter I guess, perhaps a touch warmer or colder (Working in a sweatshirt 
and long pants is fine.  Needing gloves is not.)  I plan to keep it that 
temp all the time, but having the option to keep it at say 40 deg. and 
bump it to 60 when I'm working wouldn't be bad either (if it could come up 
to temp quickly enough and without causing condensation issues with 
tools).

Seems like electric wouldn't require a vent, wouldn't have an exposed 
spark/flame, and would be easier to install, right?  What form factors do 
the heaters come in?

I've got plenty of space in the 200A house panel I think, depending on the 
amperage required here.  Certainly I can put in a 50A 220vac breaker 
without any issues I think.

Any recommendations or been there, done thats?

Thanks!

Mark

From cak at dimebank.com  Wed Oct 17 15:20:10 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:20:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <47167C8A.2070105@dimebank.com>

McMaster-Carr sells a variety of "quartz electric" heaters. I have one 
of the 1896K61 units hooked to one branch of a DPST thermostat, with 
wiring in place for another one (on the other branch).

Works for me, but I'm in northern California. I keep the thermostat set 
to around 55 and am mostly worried about condensation. The heater is 
aimed at the "machine shop" portion of the garage. It takes a while to 
heat the entire space if I want it warmer.

From robzatz at gis.net  Wed Oct 17 15:40:01 2007
From: robzatz at gis.net (Rob Zatz)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:40:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <47168131.6080909@gis.net>

I went through the same dilemma last year when we moved to our current 
house. I have a detached shop that's about 26 x 26 plus an upstairs 
loft; lots of volume as its an open A frame design.

Our house is heated by propane but it was too far to run a line out to 
the shop and there was an underground irrigation system in the way. The 
local gas company wanted about $3K to install a Modine with the required 
vents, tank, etc. Instead I went with a ceiling mounted 220V electric 
unit that I found on eBay for $400 and  a couple hundred bucks for the 
electricial to run a line to it. I don't keep the garage heated in the 
winter, but will bring it from 15 to 20 up to 55 on the weekends. The 
electric unit can do it, but it takes quite a while for the heat rise so 
I use a portable kerosene heater to help jump start the heating process. 
The electric unit is fine for maintaining the temps and dries the air a 
bit so the condensation from the kerosene heater hasn't been a problem. 
Installation was easy, just hang the bracket and attach the wires. 
There's a built in thermostat and fan, and its pretty quiet when running.

The garage is on its own meter, and over the winter the monthly bill was 
only about $35 more than the summer amount.


Rob

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Oct 17 15:42:09 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:42:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
In-Reply-To: <47167C8A.2070105@dimebank.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<47167C8A.2070105@dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171735140.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Chris Kantarjiev wrote:
> McMaster-Carr sells a variety of "quartz electric" heaters. I have one 
> of the 1896K61 units hooked to one branch of a DPST thermostat, with 
> wiring in place for another one (on the other branch).

I've been glancing through through the McMaster catalog since my post and 
have a question...

On page 586, they show a couple units.  One is 1702k23, listed at 10k 
watts and 41.7 amps.  The other is 2022k14, listed at 15k watts & 36.1 
amps.

What gives there?  They're both forced air units.  Why is the second one 
apparently so much more efficient?  I'd have expected electric heaters to 
all be about the same efficiency...

Btw, using McMaster's estimator on page 584, I get a required btu/hour of 
~58k and a required watts of ~17k watts.  That's using the following...

Length: 24'
Width: 24'
Height: 10'

heat loss factor of .5 (the garage is well insulated, but is a garage and 
as such has an overhead door).

max temp rise of 55 deg. (0 degrees outside, wanting 55 degrees inside. 
This should be the worst case.  Normally it'll be a good bit less, perhaps 
as good as only needing a 20 deg rise.)

That sound about right to you all in terms of the wags I'm using for heat 
loss factor & such?

Mark

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Oct 17 16:04:22 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:04:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net><47167C8A.2070105@dimebank.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171735140.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638754@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Mark Andy wrote:
>
> On page 586, they show a couple units.  One is 1702k23, listed
< at 10k watts and 41.7 amps.  The other is 2022k14, listed at 15k
> watts & 36.1 amps.
>
> What gives there?  They're both forced air units.  Why is the
> second one apparently so much more efficient?

Off hand, I'd bet the first is 110V and the second is 220V.

Tim Mullen

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Oct 17 16:09:29 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:09:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net><47167C8A.2070105@dimebank.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171735140.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638754@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638755@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

I was off in my guess...

After looking it up, the first is 240V, the second
is 208/240V three phase power.  The three phase is
getting a lot more "juice"

Tim Mullen


-----Original Message-----

Mark Andy wrote:
>
> On page 586, they show a couple units.  One is 1702k23, listed
< at 10k watts and 41.7 amps.  The other is 2022k14, listed at 15k
> watts & 36.1 amps.
>
> What gives there?  They're both forced air units.  Why is the
> second one apparently so much more efficient?

Off hand, I'd bet the first is 110V and the second is 220V.

Tim Mullen
_______________________________________________
tim.mullen at ngc.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Oct 17 18:13:59 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:13:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638755@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net><47167C8A.2070105@dimebank.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171735140.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638754@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797638755@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710172012480.11108@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I saw that too, after I posted, but the one above that one is a 240vac 
single phase, 10k watts just like the other one, and it only draws 27 A 
vs. the first one's 41 A for the same rated output?

Mark

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Mullen, Tim wrote:
> I was off in my guess...
>
> After looking it up, the first is 240V, the second
> is 208/240V three phase power.  The three phase is
> getting a lot more "juice"
>
> Tim Mullen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Mark Andy wrote:
>>
>> On page 586, they show a couple units.  One is 1702k23, listed
> < at 10k watts and 41.7 amps.  The other is 2022k14, listed at 15k
>> watts & 36.1 amps.
>>
>> What gives there?  They're both forced air units.  Why is the
>> second one apparently so much more efficient?
>
> Off hand, I'd bet the first is 110V and the second is 220V.
>
> Tim Mullen
> _______________________________________________
> tim.mullen at ngc.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From nases at verizon.net  Wed Oct 17 19:23:07 2007
From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:23:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <003301c81125$70f8b9f0$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com>

Hi Mark.  I have a well insulated garage slightly oversized 2 car with 11
foot ceiling.  I have a wall mounted electric heater and it warms up nicely.
I turn it on half and hour before I start to work out there and its easy to
hit 60 degrees and even hotter if  I would want it that hot.

I forget the BTU rating but can find out if you need it. 


Phil Nase
Quakertown, PA
http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa

Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas

Howdy,

Ok, time to get back going on my garage rebuild again...  Its an attached
two car garage.

I'd been planning on heating it with a natural gas hot air blower like the
Hot Dawg or similar, probably with a powered side vent.

I might still do that.

But our natural gas prices are insane compared to what they used to be, and
a recent thing from the gas company showed that electric costs are about the
same as gas for heating.  Since it came from the gas company, I figure
they're going to underestimate if anything...

So what's the scoop on electric heaters appropriate for around the clock
heating in a garage?  I'd like to keep the temp around 55 deg or so in the
winter I guess, perhaps a touch warmer or colder (Working in a sweatshirt
and long pants is fine.  Needing gloves is not.)  I plan to keep it that
temp all the time, but having the option to keep it at say 40 deg. and bump
it to 60 when I'm working wouldn't be bad either (if it could come up to
temp quickly enough and without causing condensation issues with tools).

Seems like electric wouldn't require a vent, wouldn't have an exposed
spark/flame, and would be easier to install, right?  What form factors do
the heaters come in?

I've got plenty of space in the 200A house panel I think, depending on the
amperage required here.  Certainly I can put in a 50A 220vac breaker without
any issues I think.

Any recommendations or been there, done thats?

Thanks!

Mark

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Oct 17 19:36:26 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:36:26 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4713B8AC.6030502@gis.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<4713B8AC.6030502@gis.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c81127$4d56f3c0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Ok, so I've been a bit embarrassed to respond, but here we go.

I needed a new trimmer, but the big names just seemed pricey.  In a moment
of weakness, I picked up a Maruyama trimmer at Costco about four years ago.
Nice big 2 cycle engine, trimmer only, I think it was $79, so I figured I'd
get a few years out of it.  It's still going strong, I try to empty the tank
each year, but definitely empty the carb.  It starts every time and runs
like a champ.  The string feed mechanism is not the greatest, so I'm
replacing it this year, but otherwise, a stupid simple and consistent
device.

The only real downside is that it's kind of a royal blue; real wimpy color.
. . . . <grin>

Jack

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Oct 18 06:18:19 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:18:19 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
Message-ID: <OF23FFC917.C8A0B397-ON85257378.0043989E-85257378.004398A1@mail.megageek.com>

I want to jump in here with a possible different direction.

I have a 2500 sq ft building (yes, that is right) for my garage.  I put
radiant floor in when I poured the floor, then I blew in insulation on the
walls and loose cellulose on the ceiling.

I heat the water from my existing house's oil furnace.  I keep the garage
at 55 degs, all winter long (NJ winters.) But here is the amazing part...
The oil use to the house hasn't changed noticeably!

That's right, 3 years later and my oil company has not adjusted my degree
day rating and I'm right about where I should be with oil use.

So, I would recommend you to look for a possibly of retro'ing a radiant
floor in the space if possible.


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Thu Oct 18 06:30:11 2007
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:30:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c81127$4d56f3c0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<4713B8AC.6030502@gis.net> <000c01c81127$4d56f3c0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <20071018123011.GA97502@sackheads.org>

A few years ago I found a used Stihl FS85 on ebay for $cheap.  It had
seen a lot of abuse but seeing how Stihl's engines are designed pretty well 
I took a chance and bought it.  Rebuilt the carb and replaced the fuel 
lines and throttle cable and now it works fine.  It's a bit over-powered for 
use around the house but it did a good job clearing out fence rows on my 
parents' farm.

My only problem with this guy is the fuel tank grommets don't make a tight
seal so it will leak around the fuel lines if turned on its side.  Seems the
lines need to be just a hair thicker...

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Oct 18 06:38:49 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:38:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
Message-ID: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>

Last night, I was asked to teach a class at a college that was near my
house, but in a direction from it I don't normally go.

After the class, I was driving back home and I noticed a "Tractor Supply
Store" on the road.  I saw an "open" sign and I decided to check it out.

I walked in the store, and I realized, I was home!  This store was AWESOME.
As I walked up and down the isles, my heart was racing.  At more than one
instance, a tear came to my eye!

It was like a Home Depot, without all the "girly" stuff!  Oh, the prices
are matched to most catalog companies!

I don't know if you have ever been moved like this in a tool store, but if
you've been on this list for any time, I bet you have!

The best part, it's closer to my house then any big box store!


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From LSAPEX at aol.com  Thu Oct 18 07:10:30 2007
From: LSAPEX at aol.com (LSAPEX at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:10:30 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
Message-ID: <bfb.2428c662.3448b546@aol.com>

Lucky bastard. :)

Last night, I was asked to teach a class at a college that was  near my
house, but in a direction from it I don't normally  go.

After the class, I was driving back home and I noticed a  "Tractor Supply
Store" on the road.  I saw an "open" sign and I  decided to check it out.

I walked in the store, and I realized, I  was home!  This store was AWESOME.
As I walked up and down the  isles, my heart was racing.  At more than one
instance, a tear  came to my eye!

It was like a Home Depot, without all the "girly"  stuff!  Oh, the prices
are matched to most catalog  companies!

I don't know if you have ever been moved like this in  a tool store, but if
you've been on this list for any time, I bet you  have!

The best part, it's closer to my house then any big box  store!


Moose



 
Les
apexautoeng.com





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Oct 18 07:24:45 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:24:45 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
In-Reply-To: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <20071018132445.FVCS24626.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>

> As I walked up and down the isles, my heart was racing.  At 
> more than one instance, a tear came to my eye!

Thanks, Inch.  Best laugh I've had all week !

Randall

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Oct 18 07:35:55 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:35:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
In-Reply-To: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4717613B.8070900@hornesystemstx.com>

Yup, Tractor Supply is a great place to shop. That's where I bought my 
MIG welder several years ago, and I use their hardware section quite 
often. The front tires on my 1952 Farmall Super C came from there. Come 
to think of it, quite a few things around here came from there! All in 
all a great place to shop!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake eric at megageek.com:
> Last night, I was asked to teach a class at a college that was near my
> house, but in a direction from it I don't normally go.
>
> After the class, I was driving back home and I noticed a "Tractor Supply
> Store" on the road.  I saw an "open" sign and I decided to check it out.
>
> I walked in the store, and I realized, I was home!  This store was AWESOME.
> As I walked up and down the isles, my heart was racing.  At more than one
> instance, a tear came to my eye!
>
> It was like a Home Depot, without all the "girly" stuff!  Oh, the prices
> are matched to most catalog companies!
>
> I don't know if you have ever been moved like this in a tool store, but if
> you've been on this list for any time, I bet you have!
>
> The best part, it's closer to my house then any big box store!
>
>
> Moose
>
> "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>      Tori Amos
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Oct 18 08:06:02 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:06:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
References: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <00b901c81190$053ee570$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Tractor Supply is OK, but if you think it's Mecca now, you'd better take a 
tranquilizer before you go to Farm & Fleet.

And for my personal all-time grand prize for specialty stuff there's 
Stedman's in Stuttgart Arkansas.  They have things I haven't seen for 
decades, and things I've only seen in mill supply stores -- stuff straight 
out of McMaster-Carr.  Power transmission stuff, irrigation stuff, and more. 
Heavy hardware - not much on hinges for cigar boxes, not most of the 
packaged doodads that the hardware department at Home DIpstick carries, not 
a lot of Chinese crap, and not lots of the big brands of imitation tools. 
It's an old-time hardware and supply store.



> After the class, I was driving back home and I noticed a "Tractor Supply
> Store" on the road.  I saw an "open" sign and I decided to check it out.
>
> I walked in the store, and I realized, I was home!  This store was 
> AWESOME.
> As I walked up and down the isles, my heart was racing.  At more than one
> instance, a tear came to my eye!
>
> It was like a Home Depot, without all the "girly" stuff!  Oh, the prices
> are matched to most catalog companies!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Oct 18 08:14:32 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:14:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
In-Reply-To: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <953594.36003.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I stumbled across a Tractor Supply near Allentown PA,
and I was quite impressed.  The only retail place I've
seen that carries sandblasting supplies!  I snapped up
a couple of bags of Black Beauty.

A pity there are none in central NJ...

Doug

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Oct 18 08:26:48 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:26:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
Message-ID: <OF0E74F11E.9AB82065-ON85257378.004F5BEE-85257378.004F5BF1@mail.megageek.com>

Doug, I'm located in High Bridge, NJ and the Tractor Supply place I found
was in Washington, NJ.  It's closer to you than Allentown.

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos



-----Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote: -----


To: eric at megageek.com, shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
From: Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com>
Date: 10/18/2007 10:14
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance

I stumbled across a Tractor Supply near Allentown PA,
and I was quite impressed.  The only retail place I've
seen that carries sandblasting supplies!  I snapped up
a couple of bags of Black Beauty.

A pity there are none in central NJ...

Doug

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Thu Oct 18 09:19:12 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:19:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c81127$4d56f3c0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net><4713B8AC.6030502@gis.net>
	<000c01c81127$4d56f3c0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797798ECA@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

I tend to find that single purpose tools designed to do a single job
seems to work better than the "6 tools in 1" type of tool.  It also
works out better when something breaks - I don't have to trash the whole
set.

As a result, I decided to avoid the trimmers with interchangeable
attachments, and I have a separate trimmer, a wheeled edger, a chain
saw, and a small tiller - all with their own motor.

I recently bought a new trimmer to replace my old Craftsman (branded
WeedEater) trimmer that I used for nearly 20 years without problems (it
still works too).  I finally broke down and bought a new Craftsman
trimmer (notice a pattern here?).  The Craftsman tools are re-branded
tools made by another manufacturer, but they have one advantage - I can
get parts.  If/when something breaks, I can get the parts from Sears -
they may cost a bit more than they should, but I've always been able to
get them.  For instance, I recently got an obscure part for my 20 plus
year old snow blower.  Buying something from Home Depot, etc. (even big
name stuff) will leave me hanging when I need repair parts.

Whatever trimmer you buy, get one with a straight shaft.  My original
one was a curved shaft, and although it worked just fine, you have to
hold it up with your arms - after awhile, that gets tiring.  The
straight shaft one balances - the engine hanging off the back balances
the weight of the cutting end, making it much easier on the arms.  Mine
also (as most do) has, a strap that attaches near the balance point.
The trimmer hangs from my shoulders and I just guide it with my arms.
Now, trimming is an easy task.

I also had a choice between the "easy loading" (insert special strings
through the slots) versus the string spool type.  Get the spool type.
Yea, it may be a bit harder to reload, but it sure is a lot cheaper.
Instead of having to buy $5 packs of the special "strings" every summer,
I bought a $5 spool of trimmer line that I can use to re-wind my spools
(get a second one so that you have a spare to switch to in the middle of
the job).  The last spool of replacement line lasted me 20 plus years
and still has a lot left to go.

My trimmer is a two-stroke, but with the "universal" oil - good for all
ratios - I use the same 1 gallon gas can for all my two-stoke lawn
tools.  It's really not that much of a problem.

Tim Mullen

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Oct 18 09:41:40 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:41:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$@mele@usermail.com>

<<So what's the scoop on electric heaters appropriate for around the clock 
heating in a garage?  >>

I'd consider that any 24/7 system has the same trades as your house HVAC;
Lower target temp means that the differences are smaller, but same rules
apply.
Tight air envelope, then good insulation are one=time costs with  infinite
return...house or shop

Then a geo-thermal is most efficient energy user, but most hassle and cost
to install; however, if you really only want to keep it at 50 inside, and
your building is already very tight and insulated, a ground loop about 5 ft
deep with water thru and air handler will keep it 45 or above in winter and
85 or below in summer here in NC (I've had this in my shop).

More practical is a traditional heat pump system.  The long term cost (we
all are very young, aren't we) will be much less, even if fuel costs don't
go up at all.

For intermittent heat, you might re-investgiate the oil-burners for shops
that use old engine oil...get your friends to donate to you 55 gal barrel.
I don't have any experience with this, but always thought about it when I
lived in upstate NY years ago.

Hope that helps a little...talk is cheap!

Paul

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Oct 18 09:52:30 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:52:30 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20071018123011.GA97502@sackheads.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<4713B8AC.6030502@gis.net> <000c01c81127$4d56f3c0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<20071018123011.GA97502@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <008601c8119e$e438c5d0$acaa5170$@mele@usermail.com>

<< A few years ago I found a used Stihl FS85 on ebay for $cheap.  It had
seen a lot of abuse but seeing how Stihl's engines are designed pretty well 
I took a chance and bought it.  >>

I've been lucky using the same logic...I'd rather have a used high-quality
machine/ car than a new lower quality device, for the same money.  

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Oct 18 09:59:13 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:59:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
In-Reply-To: <20071018132445.FVCS24626.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>
	<20071018132445.FVCS24626.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <008701c8119f$d45cc160$7d164420$@mele@usermail.com>

> As I walked up and down the isles, my heart was racing.  At 
> more than one instance, a tear came to my eye!

<<Thanks, Inch.  Best laugh I've had all week !

Randall>>

Would this be the right time to reveal that, as a baby in the crib, I
preferred to sleep with my father's electric drill, rather than a Teddy
Bear....?

P

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Oct 18 10:12:52 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:12:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] garage heating, electric vs. gas
In-Reply-To: <007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$%mele@usermail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$%mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <0JQ400IBL7QYPA30@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I just posted this on the Garage Journal site.

  http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12138

This is what I said:

I have been a very happy propane user, with two Empire direct vent 
heaters in my garage/shop area. Except for the bill, that is. I just 
thought I'd share my latest calculations. My electric is priced 
differently peak vs. off peak. Peak is 13 cents/kwh. Assuming an 80% 
efficient propane heater, the electricity is equivalent to paying 
$2.80/gal for propane. At 90% efficiency, $3.15/gal for propane. And 
at 100% efficiency (impossible) $3.50/gal. Just talked to my propane 
supplier and they quoted me $4.00/gal to fill my 100 gal tank right 
now. I am not a big propane user so I am not going to get the best 
discount rate. And they own the tank, so they build that into the 
price as well. If I owned the tank, they quoted around $3.00/gal. 
Bottom line is, right now for me electricity is cheaper. Strange but 
true. I think I'll be putting in a couple of electric units and 
letting the propane heaters take this winter off. Then we'll see what 
happens in a year.

BTW, here's the calculator I used:
<http://ces.ca.uky.edu/energy/calculators/fuel_price_comparison/>http://ces.ca.uky.edu/energy/calcula...ce_comparison/

From arvidj at visi.com  Thu Oct 18 10:30:57 2007
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:30:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710151421210.1456@mephisto.banklogic.net><4713B8AC.6030502@gis.net><000c01c81127$4d56f3c0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797798ECA@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <002301c811a4$43353b90$ef281aac@behavioral.com>

I have no intention of starting an debate with Tim that neither of us can win, but I do have a different view.

I have a Stihl with the replaceable attachments, including a trimmer with the easy loading end. I have been very happy with the 
arrangement. Given that I can not use all the tools at the same time, and SHMBO is not a "hey, that looks like fun, can I try it" 
kind of tool person, the need for more than one motor at any given point in time is not an issue.

I like having to maintain only one motor. And maintenance is "run it dry before winter, a little fogging oil down the intake, add 
fuel and start next spring". At the end of the year I pour any fuel left in the can into the truck and in the spring refill the can 
and mix with Universal Oil. The fuel is shared with the chainsaws. I may have an extra sparkplug for it somewhere in the garage but 
I've never needed it so I could be wrong.

All other maintenance - the lubrication of the shafts, the little gear box at the end of the shaft, etc., is identical to the 
individual tools scenario.

I prefer the easy loading version because, at least on the model that I have, the string is much bigger than what was available for 
the autofeed version. Given the way I use it - i.e. often too lazy to go back to the garage and get the "looks like a saw blade" 
brush cutter attachment - the more robust string was a good choice. Admittedly a little more work to change the string than the 
bump-n-run version I had before this one, but it makes up for it by cutting more stuff down by the stream than the other one did.

I bought a big spool of the string when I bought the trimmer and spend an hour cutting it into a bazillion pieces of the correct 
length. Note that this activity can be performed while watching TV - small quantities of beer optional. Put all the pieces into a 
big Ziploc bag and I was good-to-go. Based on my low annual consumption of cut pieces, a bazillion means there will have plenty left 
to trim around my grave when the time comes.

Arvid 

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Oct 18 17:55:16 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:55:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Geothermal (was:Re:  garage heating, electric vs.  gas)
In-Reply-To: <007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>

On Oct 18, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Paul Mele wrote:


>
> Then a geo-thermal is most efficient energy user, but most hassle  
> and cost
> to install; however, if you really only want to keep it at 50  
> inside, and
> your building is already very tight and insulated, a ground loop  
> about 5 ft
> deep with water thru and air handler will keep it 45 or above in  
> winter and
> 85 or below in summer here in NC (I've had this in my shop).

How does the ground temperature not eventually reach equilibrium with  
the shop? I can't see the transfer of heat in dirt being fast enough  
to absorb a summer's worth of 85+ temps.

jim

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 18:16:52 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:16:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Geothermal (was:Re: garage heating,
 electric  vs. gas)
In-Reply-To: <2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <ea2385360710181716vbef0b17x3be3dbf0232eda2@mail.gmail.com>

*I've been hoping we'd swerve onto this subject . . I'm sure we'll be
looking at ALL it's issues, power-to-pump water vs a small heat pump, etc.
I missed the most beautiful opportunity once when the city had a 10" water
line open across my property . . if I had thought about it at the time, they
MIGHT have let me bury a few lengths of copper in the trench with the line
and my H & A cost would have been halved or something . .  *
*Tony  *


On 10/18/07, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
>
> On Oct 18, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Paul Mele wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Then a geo-thermal is most efficient energy user, but most hassle
> > and cost
> > to install; however, if you really only want to keep it at 50
> > inside, and
> > your building is already very tight and insulated, a ground loop
> > about 5 ft
> > deep with water thru and air handler will keep it 45 or above in
> > winter and
> > 85 or below in summer here in NC (I've had this in my shop).
>
> How does the ground temperature not eventually reach equilibrium with
> the shop? I can't see the transfer of heat in dirt being fast enough
> to absorb a summer's worth of 85+ temps.
>
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Oct 18 18:34:18 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:34:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Keeping driveway under deck dry
Message-ID: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org>

I'm looking to keep the driveway under my deck dry, or at least free  
from raindrops so I can work under there in the rain. I remember  
seeing a product in a mag years ago but cannot recall even how it  
functioned. I know I can put the corrugated plastic under there but  
this was different. Anyone here do something different? of course it  
needs to breathe, not harbor residences for pests, etc.

jim

From pete at partnercomm.com  Thu Oct 18 19:01:06 2007
From: pete at partnercomm.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:01:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Keeping driveway under deck dry
In-Reply-To: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710182059410.15128-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>

Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.timbertech.com/Products/DrySpace.aspx

-Peter

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Jim Franklin wrote:

> I'm looking to keep the driveway under my deck dry, or at least free  
> from raindrops so I can work under there in the rain. I remember  
> seeing a product in a mag years ago but cannot recall even how it  
> functioned. I know I can put the corrugated plastic under there but  
> this was different. Anyone here do something different? of course it  
> needs to breathe, not harbor residences for pests, etc.
> 
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> pete at partnercomm.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From clmautz at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 19:04:12 2007
From: clmautz at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?Q2hpcCBNYXV0eg==?=)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:04:12 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Keeping driveway under deck dry
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710182059410.15128-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>
References: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org><Pine.LNX.4.44.0710182059410.15128-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.8.1192755845.12553.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

Google underdecking.

Chip

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Murray <pete at partnercomm.com>

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:01:06 
To:Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Keeping driveway under deck dry


Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.timbertech.com/Products/DrySpace.aspx

-Peter

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Jim Franklin wrote:

> I'm looking to keep the driveway under my deck dry, or at least free  
> from raindrops so I can work under there in the rain. I remember  
> seeing a product in a mag years ago but cannot recall even how it  
> functioned. I know I can put the corrugated plastic under there but  
> this was different. Anyone here do something different? of course it  
> needs to breathe, not harbor residences for pests, etc.
> 
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> pete at partnercomm.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
_______________________________________________
clmautz at gmail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Oct 18 19:44:42 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:44:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Keeping driveway under deck dry
In-Reply-To: <20071019010422.37573187B13@autox.team.net>
References: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org><Pine.LNX.4.44.0710182059410.15128-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>
	<20071019010422.37573187B13@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <EAE1516F-4804-41EE-90FF-5A7373FC5C2E@groupwbench.org>

All set now. Thanks!

jim

On Oct 18, 2007, at 9:04 PM, Chip Mautz wrote:

> Google underdecking.
>
>
> http://www.timbertech.com/Products/DrySpace.aspx

From kentsu at corvairkid.com  Thu Oct 18 21:52:42 2007
From: kentsu at corvairkid.com (Kent Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:52:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
In-Reply-To: <00b901c81190$053ee570$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com>
	<00b901c81190$053ee570$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <001601c81203$80bf4640$823dd2c0$@com>

While we're on the topic of new (to at least one person) places to buy cool
gear, I recently got a catalog from these folks:

http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/

I ordered a shovel and they sent me their printed catalog. My oh my... As a
friend said, "That's bonafide tool porn!" <g>

--Kent
-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+kentsu=corvairkid.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+kentsu=corvairkid.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Karl Vacek
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:06 AM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance

Tractor Supply is OK, but if you think it's Mecca now, you'd better take a 
tranquilizer before you go to Farm & Fleet.

And for my personal all-time grand prize for specialty stuff there's 
Stedman's in Stuttgart Arkansas.  They have things I haven't seen for 
decades, and things I've only seen in mill supply stores -- stuff straight 
out of McMaster-Carr.  Power transmission stuff, irrigation stuff, and more.

Heavy hardware - not much on hinges for cigar boxes, not most of the 
packaged doodads that the hardware department at Home DIpstick carries, not 
a lot of Chinese crap, and not lots of the big brands of imitation tools. 
It's an old-time hardware and supply store.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 23:33:58 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:33:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Geothermal (was:Re: garage heating,
 electric  vs. gas)
In-Reply-To: <2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710182233w178d2f5dwdabb32acd0c5340a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/18/07, Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org> wrote:
> On Oct 18, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Paul Mele wrote:
>
 in my shop).
>
> How does the ground temperature not eventually reach equilibrium with
> the shop? I can't see the transfer of heat in dirt being fast enough
> to absorb a summer's worth of 85+ temps.
>

You have to install a big enough loop to make sure.  How big that is
depends on local soil conditions.  Dry soil is a less efficient than
wet, for instance.  The actual pipe is usually encased in bentonite to
make sure that it has good contact with the soil.

Ground source heat pumps are a particularly good match for in-floor
radiant heat, by the way.  The huge area of the floor allows that heat
source be much closer to the temperature of the area heated (or
cooled), than a point source (like a steam radiator or forced hot air
vent) is.  The huge thermal mass of a concrete floor helps too.  Open
the over head door, and you let all the heated air out quickly, but
the mass of the floor can reheat the air quickly, without dropping in
temperature too much.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Oct 19 06:29:43 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:29:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Geothermal
In-Reply-To: <2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$@mele@usermail.com>
	<2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <4718A337.1090101@xxiii.com>

Jim Franklin wrote:
> How does the ground temperature not eventually reach equilibrium with  
> the shop? I can't see the transfer of heat in dirt being fast enough  
> to absorb a summer's worth of 85+ temps.

It's not a straight heat exchanger.  It's a heat pump, with compressor, 
refrigerant, and all the same stuff as a regular air-source hat pump. 
So it can move heat, even if it's going from warm to warmer.  A regular 
air conditioner or heat pump absorbs heat from the building, and dumps 
it out into the hotter outdoor air (80 degF and up);  In heating mode, 
it flips around, and sucks heat from the outdoor air down to 20 degF and 
lower, and brings it indoors.  But it's fighting against the temperature 
extremes of the outdoor air.

The ground source heat pump is really beautiful technology (tearing up 
now, not unlike a T.S.C. shopping trip) and extremely efficient.  Once 
you're a couple feet underground, or below the frost line, the earth 
stays a fairly constant 50 some degF.  So it's very easy for common 
refrigerants to dump or suck heat from it.  Apparently with the moisture 
content and what not, it's quite heat conductive does this very well. 
Efficiency for heating can supposedly be over 600%, compared with 
straight resistance electrical heating (which is assume is 100% by 
definition.)

Google for "ground source heat pump" or "geothermal heat pump"  Here are 
a couple things I bookmarked:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12640
http://geoexchange.org/about/how.htm


   -Wayne

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Fri Oct 19 08:25:00 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:25:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Geothermal (was:Re:  garage heating,
 electric  vs.  gas)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net><007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$@mele@usermail.com>
	<2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <004d01c8125b$d8e17fc0$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>

Something else to remember is that the ground isn't isolated.  If the ground 
coils were set into a rock that was isolated from everything, it would reach 
an equilibrium, and the system would stop working.

The heat that is pumped into the ground, or taken out for heating in the 
winter, moves through the ground.  It is dispersed with a little time.

If you installed a unit with too small a coil area underground, you could 
heat saturate the immediate area around the coils, causing the system to 
work poorly, and even to not work at all.  This is essentially the same 
problem with too small a window air conditioner on a hot day.  It just can't 
transfer the heat.

I don't know how old this is, but for some years, they've been installing 
them with deeply drilled holes.  I know somewhere back in the distant past 
they used to be installed as a grid over a large area, just a few feet down. 
Now they do deep drilling, and run the line(s) down deeply with minimal 
horizontal footprint.  This may be a decades old change, I simply don't 
know.

I know of several underground heating systems, and they all work very well. 
If I were to be considering installing a new heating system, I'd be very 
inclined to look into these systems.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Franklin" <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
To: "Shop Talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Geothermal (was:Re: garage heating, electric vs. gas)


> On Oct 18, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Paul Mele wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Then a geo-thermal is most efficient energy user, but most hassle
>> and cost
>> to install; however, if you really only want to keep it at 50
>> inside, and
>> your building is already very tight and insulated, a ground loop
>> about 5 ft
>> deep with water thru and air handler will keep it 45 or above in
>> winter and
>> 85 or below in summer here in NC (I've had this in my shop).
>
> How does the ground temperature not eventually reach equilibrium with
> the shop? I can't see the transfer of heat in dirt being fast enough
> to absorb a summer's worth of 85+ temps.
>
> jim

From gsteve at hammatt.com  Fri Oct 19 08:57:31 2007
From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:57:31 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
References: <OFB86D22DD.9C27F793-ON85257378.004578EF-85257378.004578F2@mail.megageek.com><00b901c81190$053ee570$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<001601c81203$80bf4640$823dd2c0$@com>
Message-ID: <029001c81260$5fed80a0$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>

Here's another "find" that we made.
While in British Columbia last year I was told about
a catalog company that may be of interest to me.  They also
had a company store (real brick and mortar!) in Vancouver.
We happened to drive by it and we stopped so that I could
run in for a few minutes to take a look around.  Surprisingly
my wife decided to also come in with me!  We left a couple
of hours later, weighed down with lots of stuff to declare at
the border crossing the next day!  Many of the goodies were
purchased by my wife.  They have a broad range of items:
woodworking, gardening, hardware and gifts.  Being Canadian
based, they have a different and overall better quality of
suppliers (I believe) than what we see commonly here in
the states.  They do have a US version and ship from south
of the border for us here in the states.
Try it, you may like it!
www.leevalley.com

Steve Hammatt
Mount Vernon WA USA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Sullivan" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance


| While we're on the topic of new (to at least one person) places to buy 
cool
| gear, I recently got a catalog from these folks:
|
| http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/
|
| I ordered a shovel and they sent me their printed catalog. My oh my... 
As a
| friend said, "That's bonafide tool porn!" <g>
|
| --Kent
snip 

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Oct 19 09:19:11 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:19:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
Message-ID: <200710191519.l9JFJBAu004745@moose.dimebank.com>

> http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/

http://www.benmeadows.com/ is a similarly good site.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 19 10:50:34 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:50:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] A life changing experiance
In-Reply-To: <029001c81260$5fed80a0$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt>
Message-ID: <283726.66089.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You bought a lot of stuff in Canada to bring back to
the USA? Don't try that with today's exchange rates!

Doug

--- "Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA"
<gsteve at hammatt.com> wrote:

> Here's another "find" that we made.
> While in British Columbia last year I was told about
> a catalog company that may be of interest to me. 
> They also
> had a company store (real brick and mortar!) in
> Vancouver.
> We happened to drive by it and we stopped so that I
> could
> run in for a few minutes to take a look around. 
> Surprisingly
> my wife decided to also come in with me!  We left a
> couple
> of hours later, weighed down with lots of stuff to
> declare at
> the border crossing the next day!  Many of the
> goodies were
> purchased by my wife.  They have a broad range of
> items:
> woodworking, gardening, hardware and gifts.  Being
> Canadian
> based, they have a different and overall better
> quality of
> suppliers (I believe) than what we see commonly here
> in
> the states.  They do have a US version and ship from
> south
> of the border for us here in the states.
> Try it, you may like it!
> www.leevalley.com

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Fri Oct 19 10:59:27 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:59:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Geothermal
In-Reply-To: <4718A337.1090101@xxiii.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710171707500.30442@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<007b01c8119d$60e558c0$22b00a40$@mele@usermail.com>
	<2B1348C4-601E-4FFB-81F7-57047E911CC7@groupwbench.org>
	<4718A337.1090101@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <013801c81271$695965d0$3c0c3170$@mele@usermail.com>

<<Jim Franklin wrote:
> How does the ground temperature not eventually reach equilibrium with  
> the shop? I can't see the transfer of heat in dirt being fast enough  
> to absorb a summer's worth of 85+ temps.

It's not a straight heat exchanger.  It's a heat pump, with compressor, 
refrigerant, and all the same stuff as a regular air-source hat pump. >>

for the record, the above is the "normal" system.
I was trying to state that I made a simpler version in the shop where I did
NOT use a refrig system...just used a 12VDC ($39) pump to slowly circulate
(I wanted to vary speed/ flow; easiest way was 12 V DC with variable supply
voltage) directly through water-coils in the air handler (this was a special
order).  We all know that the R22 pump is the energy user...this system was
under $22/ mo to run (with air handler fan) continuously.
Heat gain from windows upstairs made that space gradually warm up over the
summer.
Downstairs (no windows) stayed 8 deg cooler on avg.  Space is 40 x 30 x 12
ft first floor; x 9 ft second flr.

I hope to play with this system over the winter.  I want to make a heat
exchanger to allow me to circulate the ground loop water against an R-22
based coil, and likewise the water loop to the air handler on the other coil
of an R-22 system.   I've found a small R-22 unit that is self contained,
but designed to exhaust the "dump" side of the system through a 6 inch hose,
sim to a dryer vent.
The idea is that  this will add greater "concentration" of the heat gradient
between ground loop and interior...same as a commercial set up, just home
built, smaller...?more fun?
The inside air envelope in my shop is so tight (0.2 air exchanges per hour)
and insulated (R-60 ceiling and R-49 walls) with the ICF (Insulated Concrete
Forms) construction, that commercial systems are all about 3 times bigger
(BTU) than I need.  The direct ground-loop to air-handler experiment was
designed to test that theory.

Results of this "playing" will be applied when I build the retirement house
in a few years.  I really want minimal monthly HVAC cost/ energy use, since
it seems that it can only go up or become more scarce as I get older...
Whatever system you might use to do the cooling, you can't do better than
starting with ICF construction....IMO.

Paul

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Fri Oct 19 20:37:16 2007
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (JAMES STONE)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:37:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other source of garage heat: Waste Oil
In-Reply-To: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org>
References: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <BAY126-W144DF38D011777444D1A7ECC980@phx.gbl>

All of this talk about heating, electric, gas and geothermal garage heat
reminds me to ask about a topic I have long been curious about: Waste Oil
Heaters.  Does anyone have any experience with them?  I don't need to heat the
garage around the clock, just for a few hours at a time.  I frequently have
several gallons of used oil sitting around between trips to the recycling
center and it would be nice to put it to good use.  Do they work?  Are they
environmentally ok?  How about homemade ones?  (see for example:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html#mwoh)
Has anyone ever tried one of these?

Thanks.


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook  together at last.  Get it
now.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Oct 19 21:00:55 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:00:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other source of garage heat: Waste Oil
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W144DF38D011777444D1A7ECC980@phx.gbl>
References: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org>
	<BAY126-W144DF38D011777444D1A7ECC980@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710192000y13ff87a8me01ce8f45044fa5d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/19/07, JAMES STONE <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
> All of this talk about heating, electric, gas and geothermal garage heat
> reminds me to ask about a topic I have long been curious about: Waste Oil
> Heaters.  Does anyone have any experience with them?  I don't need to heat the
> garage around the clock, just for a few hours at a time.  I frequently have
> several gallons of used oil sitting around between trips to the recycling
> center and it would be nice to put it to good use.  Do they work?  Are they
> environmentally ok?  How about homemade ones?  (see for example:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html#mwoh)
> Has anyone ever tried one of these?

I've worked in shops with commercially produced ones.  There are
regulatory requirements to deal with; the federal ones are pretty
easy: they assume that if the fuel is okay, the exhaust will be, too.
They do limit you to burning waste you generate yourself.  Used oil is
about 140K BTU/gallon, so unless you've got a lot of equipment, you're
not likely to generate enough oil for it to be worthwhile.   States
and cities have tougher rules, and may prohibit them residential
areas.

I wouldn't even think about a stove that mother earth news says you
can build.  It's unlikely to be a safe design, and it certainly won't
be efficient.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From brabel at dlux.net  Fri Oct 19 21:06:16 2007
From: brabel at dlux.net (Bill Rabel)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:06:16 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other source of garage heat: Waste Oil
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W144DF38D011777444D1A7ECC980@phx.gbl>
References: <D40B6CCF-B818-4697-A715-18FCB79072B3@groupwbench.org>
	<BAY126-W144DF38D011777444D1A7ECC980@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <40769F0C-4FAC-4416-8FFF-F0EDC5EA908E@dlux.net>

We have used a couple of types of waste-oil heaters. They are  
basically of two types.

The first uses a series of filters to get the oil clean enough that  
it will flow through a conventional furnace atomizing burner. The  
downside is that they use filters up fast, depending on the amount of  
contamination in the oil.

The second is similar to a Coleman stove. There is a pre-heating  
chamber that is fired with clean kerosene to get the waste oil to  
vaporize. Once the process is taking place, the kerosene is no longer  
needed, since the heat of combustion keeps the vaporization taking  
place. This type of heater needs only a rough screen to keep the 'big  
chunks' out of the flame. The rest of the waste simply accumulates as  
heavy ash in the bottom of the burner. This needs to be scraped out  
every day or two.

Even though we produce a lot of waste oil in our equipment rental  
business, both types of heater are a bit too 'high maintenance' for a  
production shop. I think they would be OK for a home shop, since the  
hours they would be used would limit the maintenance considerably.

Our first heaters were Kroll, of the vaporizing type, and the later  
ones were Lanair, I believe. Also, this was 20 years ago or so, so I  
don't know the current environmental opinion of these heaters. At the  
time, however, the Fire Marshall approved our use of these. I just  
did a Google search of "waste oil heaters" and got a lot of hits.

- Bill Rabel
   Seattle, WA

> All of this talk about heating, electric, gas and geothermal garage  
> heat
> reminds me to ask about a topic I have long been curious about:  
> Waste Oil
> Heaters.  Does anyone have any experience with them?  I don't need  
> to heat the
> garage around the clock, just for a few hours at a time.  I  
> frequently have
> several gallons of used oil sitting around between trips to the  
> recycling
> center and it would be nice to put it to good use.  Do they work?   
> Are they
> environmentally ok?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Oct 20 09:05:01 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Other source of garage heat: Waste Oil
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W144DF38D011777444D1A7ECC980@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <600877.18895.qm@web614.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If it's OK to use a homemade heater to burn waste oil,
wouldn't it be OK to use the same kind of heater for
regular heating oil?

If it would be messy, foolish, or dangerous to use a
homemade heater with regular heating oil, wouldn't it
also be the same if it used waste oil?

Doug




--- JAMES STONE <jandkstone99 at msn.com> wrote:
 Are they
> environmentally ok?  How about homemade ones?  (see
> for example:
>
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html#mwoh)
> Has anyone ever tried one of these?

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sun Oct 21 15:35:02 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:35:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710161630260.29346-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710161630260.29346-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710211728210.21989@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Ok, so mostly because it was easy, I picked up a Troy-bilt 4 cycle trimmer 
today.

I like it ergonomically and everything, but I'm not too impressed with how 
it runs.  You put the choke on 3 for 5 pulls, then on 2 for 1-4 until it 
starts, then wait 30 seconds and turn off the choke.

Supposedly.

On mine, it'll fire and die on two a few times, then eventually fire and 
idle for a moment until it dies, then possibly eventually fire and stay 
idling, then a # of times after that it'll die as soon as you touch the 
throttle, then eventually, maybe, it'll allow you to use the throttle.

On full throttle after that, it'll sputter and miss occasionally, never 
really ever sounding like its really banging on all cylinders (:-) for any 
length of time.

So how normal is that for these 4 cycle trimmers?  I'll mix gas if this is 
normal.

Fresh gas, btw.  And yes I put the oil in the motor.  :-)

I bought a new trimmer so I wouldn't have to deal with this crap.  I've 
already got one that doesn't run the way I like...  Though to be fair the 
old one doesn't run _at all_.  :-)

Mark


On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Peter Murray wrote:

> That should be Troy-Bilt, not Toro....
>
> -Peter
>
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Peter Murray wrote:
>
>> I purchased a Toro 4-stroke "trimmer" from Lowe's about 4 years ago, and
>> have since then bought the pole saw, blower and rototiller attachments. I
>> have never regretted that decision.
>>
>> Reliable, develops enough power, no 2-stroke stink, and easy oil change.
>> Flexible and just works fine. If only I could hook it up to mow my yard,
>> so I don't have to buy a regular lawn mower (I use a reel mower right now
>> that the wife hates)...
>>
>> Rototiller attachment can be a bit difficult to use. Were it more
>> controllable, it would be quite effective. My rocky soil probably doesn't
>> help much in that regard...
>>
>> -Peter
>>
>> --
>> Peter Murray (N3IXY)
>> Oak Hill, VA
>> _______________________________________________
>> pete at partnercomm.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> _______________________________________________
> mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Oct 21 18:28:41 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:28:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
Message-ID: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I always have electricity bills higher than I expect,
and I've always wanted something that would tell me
how much electricity my house was using at any given
moment.  (Then I could tell if my air compressor or
other shop tools were a significant contributor).

I thought I would have to buy something that had to be
attached to the main power feed to the house,
involving the services of an electrician (and $$$). 
But then
I stumbled across a web site for an interesting
gadget: 

  http://www.save-electricity.ca/ 

This has a battery-powered optical pickup that
attaches to your electric meter and detects the
rotation of the disk inside it.  Then it transmits a
signal to a desktop display that shows the current
power usage and other statistics.  It's $139, which
seems quite reasonable.

Has anyone ever seen or bought one of these?  Has
anyone ever heard of something similar for sale? 
Ideally I'd like a system with a computer interface
that would let me log data, put it on a web page,
etc., etc.

Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Oct 21 18:50:48 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:50:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] More remote electric meter readouts
In-Reply-To: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <617651.41672.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello again,

I found several more remote power meters for sale,
which have current sensors that you can install
yourself inside your electrical panel without having
to disconnect the main feed:

http://www.powermeterstore.com/index.php?cPath=550

Some are even good enough to measure voltage and
current separately and do a proper RMS calculation. 
Has anyone ever heard anything about any of these?

Doug

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Sun Oct 21 18:52:21 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:52:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <471BF445.2010609@hornesystemstx.com>

Doug,

Cool device, but I have no experience with it. A month or so ago I 
bought a P3 International "kill A Watt "  monitor that plugs into a 120V 
outlet and gives you:
Voltage
Amps
Watts
Volt Amps
Power Factor
Frequency
KWH

It cost about $20 on the net, I think I got it off eBay. It is rated for 
up to 15A
Their web site is http://www.p3international.com

There are a couple of things I don't like about it, the display is not 
back-lit, and when plugged into a duplex outlet, it covers up the second 
outlet.

I've been plugging lots of things in around the house to see how much 
they add to my electric bill.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Doug Braun:
> Hello,
>
> I always have electricity bills higher than I expect,
> and I've always wanted something that would tell me
> how much electricity my house was using at any given
> moment.  (Then I could tell if my air compressor or
> other shop tools were a significant contributor).
>
> I thought I would have to buy something that had to be
> attached to the main power feed to the house,
> involving the services of an electrician (and $$$). 
> But then
> I stumbled across a web site for an interesting
> gadget: 
>
>   http://www.save-electricity.ca/ 
>
> This has a battery-powered optical pickup that
> attaches to your electric meter and detects the
> rotation of the disk inside it.  Then it transmits a
> signal to a desktop display that shows the current
> power usage and other statistics.  It's $139, which
> seems quite reasonable.
>
> Has anyone ever seen or bought one of these?  Has
> anyone ever heard of something similar for sale? 
> Ideally I'd like a system with a computer interface
> that would let me log data, put it on a web page,
> etc., etc.
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From darmstrong at nexicom.net  Sun Oct 21 19:37:20 2007
From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:37:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200710220144.l9M1iVXI007318@smtp.nexicom.net>

One step better - if you want to see what your individual 110 volt equipment
is using.  Watt Minder Electricity Monitor Meter

$ 23.97 at this site.  May find a similar unit for a better price.

http://www.sierraenergyproducts.com/

Doug Armstrong



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Doug Braun
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:29 PM
To: Shop-Talk List
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout

Hello,

I always have electricity bills higher than I expect,
and I've always wanted something that would tell me
how much electricity my house was using at any given
moment.  (Then I could tell if my air compressor or
other shop tools were a significant contributor).

I thought I would have to buy something that had to be
attached to the main power feed to the house,
involving the services of an electrician (and $$$). 
But then
I stumbled across a web site for an interesting
gadget: 

  http://www.save-electricity.ca/ 

This has a battery-powered optical pickup that
attaches to your electric meter and detects the
rotation of the disk inside it.  Then it transmits a
signal to a desktop display that shows the current
power usage and other statistics.  It's $139, which
seems quite reasonable.

Has anyone ever seen or bought one of these?  Has
anyone ever heard of something similar for sale? 
Ideally I'd like a system with a computer interface
that would let me log data, put it on a web page,
etc., etc.

Doug
_______________________________________________
darmstrong at nexicom.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007
2:59 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007
2:59 PM

From trevor at boicey.com  Sun Oct 21 20:32:34 2007
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:32:34 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <471C0BC2.9050506@boicey.com>

Doug Braun wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I always have electricity bills higher than I expect,
> and I've always wanted something that would tell me
> how much electricity my house was using at any given
> moment.  (Then I could tell if my air compressor or
> other shop tools were a significant contributor).

   Any clamp ammeter can be clamped around each circuit in your breaker 
panel and will give current measurements for that circuit. I have used 
my cheap chinese one extensively....

   Generally available on ebay for S.F.A, example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/DIGITAL-CLAMP-ON-AMMETER-82372_W0QQitemZ290167843730QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11704QQcmdZViewItem

-- 
Trevor Boicey, P. Eng.
Ottawa, Canada, trevor at boicey.com
ICQ #17432933 http://www.brit.ca/~tboicey/

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Oct 21 20:50:19 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <471C0BC2.9050506@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <995660.22085.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I want something cooler than that: where I can be
sitting at my desk or lying in bed, and see a display
that tell me how much electricity my whole house is
using at the moment.  Then I will know if the kids
left the basement lights on, etc. 

Doug


--- Trevor Boicey <trevor at boicey.com> wrote:

> Doug Braun wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I always have electricity bills higher than I
> expect,
> > and I've always wanted something that would tell
> me
> > how much electricity my house was using at any
> given
> > moment.  (Then I could tell if my air compressor
> or
> > other shop tools were a significant contributor).
> 
>    Any clamp ammeter can be clamped around each
> circuit in your breaker 
> panel and will give current measurements for that
> circuit. I have used 
> my cheap chinese one extensively....

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Sun Oct 21 21:08:19 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:08:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] trimmer recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710211728210.21989@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0710161630260.29346-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710211728210.21989@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <006801c81458$cc3ebb80$6601a8c0@proteus457>

That is definitely not normal judging from my Troy-bilt 4-stroke.  Mine
always starts by the second pull, and occasionally on the first pull.  After
starting it takes approximately two or three seconds before I can give it
full throttle (no, I'm not kidding).  Then it runs without a hiccup until
the tank runs dry.

However, it sounds like they've made some changes in the three years or so
since I bought mine, as mine doesn't even have a choke.  It has a primer
bulb on the back of the carb that you push until you don't see any more air
in the fuel line - usually about six to eight pumps.

Anyway, it sounds like your carb needs some adjusting, but of course that
shouldn't be the case on a brand new trimmer.  I would talk to the place
where you bought it to see if they have anyone who does that sort of thing
(my local Lowe's told me that they have someone who runs and adjusts some of
their powered lawn & garden equipment before it goes on the floor) or e-mail
troy-bilt and see what they say.  It should run a lot better than that right
out of the box.

Mike Frerichs


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Andy
> 
> Howdy,
> 
> Ok, so mostly because it was easy, I picked up a Troy-bilt 4 cycle trimmer
> today.
> 
> I like it ergonomically and everything, but I'm not too impressed with how
> it runs.  You put the choke on 3 for 5 pulls, then on 2 for 1-4 until it
> starts, then wait 30 seconds and turn off the choke.
> 
> Supposedly.
> 
> On mine, it'll fire and die on two a few times, then eventually fire and
> idle for a moment until it dies, then possibly eventually fire and stay
> idling, then a # of times after that it'll die as soon as you touch the
> throttle, then eventually, maybe, it'll allow you to use the throttle.
> 
> On full throttle after that, it'll sputter and miss occasionally, never
> really ever sounding like its really banging on all cylinders (:-) for any
> length of time.
> 
> So how normal is that for these 4 cycle trimmers?  I'll mix gas if this is
> normal.
> 
> Fresh gas, btw.  And yes I put the oil in the motor.  :-)
> 
> I bought a new trimmer so I wouldn't have to deal with this crap.  I've
> already got one that doesn't run the way I like...  Though to be fair the
> old one doesn't run _at all_.  :-)
> 
> Mark

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Sun Oct 21 21:23:05 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:23:05 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006901c8145a$dc686360$6601a8c0@proteus457>

For the past year-and-a-half or so my local power company has been swapping
out all of the electric meters in Omaha with units that can be read via
radio signal.  The meter readers now just drive a car down the road
collecting readings from all the houses that they pass, saving them a HUGE
number of man-hours to read the meters.  The new meters don't have a
spinning wheel anymore; they just have an LCD display that shows the
reading.  Also, about every 10 seconds or so, the display flashes a couple
of times, changes to zeros, and then goes back to the normal reading.

I hadn't thought about it until Doug's post, but I wonder if it would be
possible to have something in the house that would continuously read the
meter the same way the power company does.  I don't know if the meter is
continuously sending out the information, possibly when it blinks, or if it
waits for a signal from the car to tell it to send.  I also don't know if
the signal has any sort of encryption, though I don't know why it would
since you can walk right up to anyone's meter and see the reading.

Does anyone know anything about this type of meter, and if anyone makes an
aftermarket product for reading them?

Mike Frerichs



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Braun
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I always have electricity bills higher than I expect,
> and I've always wanted something that would tell me
> how much electricity my house was using at any given
> moment.  (Then I could tell if my air compressor or
> other shop tools were a significant contributor).
> 
> I thought I would have to buy something that had to be
> attached to the main power feed to the house,
> involving the services of an electrician (and $$$).
> But then
> I stumbled across a web site for an interesting
> gadget:
> 
>   http://www.save-electricity.ca/
> 
> This has a battery-powered optical pickup that
> attaches to your electric meter and detects the
> rotation of the disk inside it.  Then it transmits a
> signal to a desktop display that shows the current
> power usage and other statistics.  It's $139, which
> seems quite reasonable.
> 
> Has anyone ever seen or bought one of these?  Has
> anyone ever heard of something similar for sale?
> Ideally I'd like a system with a computer interface
> that would let me log data, put it on a web page,
> etc., etc.
> 
> Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Oct 21 22:54:22 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <006901c8145a$dc686360$6601a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <957760.19659.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That first gadget I mentioned does more or less what
you are thinking of.  It is physically attached to the
meter, and can sense some blinking LED or something.

My house's meter is probably as old as the house, and
is the classic electromechanical kind.  The gadget
works with that, too.

Doug


--- Mike Frerichs <shoptalk at centipi.com> wrote:

> For the past year-and-a-half or so my local power
> company has been swapping
> out all of the electric meters in Omaha with units
> that can be read via
> radio signal.  The meter readers now just drive a
> car down the road
> collecting readings from all the houses that they
> pass, saving them a HUGE
> number of man-hours to read the meters.  The new
> meters don't have a
> spinning wheel anymore; they just have an LCD
> display that shows the
> reading.  Also, about every 10 seconds or so, the
> display flashes a couple
> of times, changes to zeros, and then goes back to
> the normal reading.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Oct 22 06:41:03 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:41:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071022084103.00ac7d28@pop.east.cox.net>

At 05:28 PM 10/21/2007 -0700, Doug Braun wrote:

>I always have electricity bills higher than I expect,
>and I've always wanted something that would tell me
>how much electricity my house was using at any given
>moment.  (Then I could tell if my air compressor or
>other shop tools were a significant contributor).

That's not hard to get a good estimate of how much an item is
costing to run.  But you'll have to do a little math and possibly
know a couple of conversion factors.

For starters:

1. 1KW = 1,000 watts

2. Watts = Voltage (volts) * Current (amps)

3. You need to know the cost of 1kw of electricity.  Here in VA I pay
   9 cents in the summer and 7 cents in the winter for 1kw.

So if I have a 100 watt light bulb I can run it for 10 hrs for about 7 to 
9 cents.  Call it 10 cents or it costs 1 cent per hour of use.

You mentioned an air compressor.  So lets use mine.  It's a 5 hp 220V
So the 1st thing I need to know is the conversion form HP to KW.  You
can look that up many places or search for it on the web.  1 HP is 
about 750 watts, so 5 hp is 3750 watts or 3.75 KW.  Now cost = KW * $,
so 3.75 * 7 cents is about 25 cents / hr to run.  But the compressor
doesn't run for an hour unless I'm doing something like sandblasting or
sanding.  It usually runs for less than 5 minutes then is off for quite
some time, then fires for a few minutes.

You can do the same with any shop tool.  Say you have a table saw with
a 10A motor.  All you need to know is the saw 110 or 220 V?  Remember
Power (watts) = Voltage * Current, so if we assume it's a 110V saw, then
P = 110 * 10 or about 1.1KW, and Cost = KW * $, again at 7cents/kw hr,
I get 1.1 * 7 or about 10 cents per hour of usage.

Now if you are really into geek, then fine buy one of those fancy do dads.

But as someone else said, you get get a cheap clamp on Am meter for under
$30.  You take the current reading from the meter, multiply by 220V for
the service to your house, then by the cost per KW hr and you know how
much your house is costing you to run.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct 22 08:12:58 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071022084103.00ac7d28@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <536844.44386.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> 3. You need to know the cost of 1kw of electricity. 
> Here in VA I pay
>    9 cents in the summer and 7 cents in the winter
> for 1kw.

In NJ it costs me about 15 cents year-around  :-( 

> But as someone else said, you get get a cheap clamp
> on Am meter for under
> $30.  You take the current reading from the meter,
> multiply by 220V for
> the service to your house, then by the cost per KW
> hr and you know how
> much your house is costing you to run.

Actually, there is not really any place where a
clamp-on meter would fit around either of the two
phases. But I can just time how long it takes for the
disc in the meter to turn, and divide it into the
magic number (kH) on the face of the meter.

Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct 22 08:22:39 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:22:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <471C9ADD.2010807@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <802739.92036.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In the light of day I was able to do some more
experiments:

With no lights on, I measured 660 watts.
With also the fridge off, I measured 360 watts.
When I also turned off a PC fileserver, FIOS modem,
router, wireless access point, etc. it went down to
270
watts.

The residual 270 watts seems reasonably accounted for 
by the load of one running PC and idling power of all
the various household electronic doodads like the
cordless telephone, stereos, alarm clocks, alarm
system, etc.

My fridge (apparently about 300 watts) is about a
20-year-old Sub-Zero with one old and tired compressor
(and one new compressor, which cost $$$$).  Sub-Zero
claims that their new models use less than 100 watts,
but they are so unbelievably overpriced that it would
take many years for the electricity savings to pay
back.

Doug

--- Pat Horne <roadsters at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:

> Doug,
> 
> 800 Watts sounds excessive to me. The main users of
> power are electric 
> water heaters and refrigerators. Does the fan run
> continuously on your 
> frig? I have about a 10 year old Sub Zero that runs
> its fan 
> continuously. I looked at the wiring diagram and
> that is how it is 
> designed. Another thing you might try to see where
> the extra load is 
> going is to turn off some of the circuit breakers to
> major appliances to 
> see if that drops your usage.
> 
> If you have surge protectors you might have a
> defective one. They should 
> not get warm in normal operation, so check them out,
> especially whole 
> house protectors.
> 
> Good luck with your search.
> 
> Peace,
> Pat

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 22 09:36:40 2007
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:36:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <006901c8145a$dc686360$6601a8c0@proteus457>
References: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<006901c8145a$dc686360$6601a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W17D2E47322CB18A7D853FA9A9A0@phx.gbl>

I have a wireless reader on my house, so I'll have to do some research on this
when time allows

My hope is that they're using some sort of encryption, or at least
authentication, b/c what would prevent someone from broadcasting a dummy
signal, announcing a lower number of used watts than what is actually being
used, in essence stealing from the power company.  I'm guess it's more of a
problem for large commercial buildings where there is more to gain from
under-reporting usage.

Not to mention the privacy concerns if this type of system is always on,
always reporting usage, anyone could gather information about you to determine
habits, if they are trying to break in.

I think their have been cases of the police using dramatic changes in power
usage to detect things like illegal marijuana growing (all the lights needed)
so this would be a good way to hide an operation.

PJ
(Info security guy) > For the past year-and-a-half or so my local power
company has been swapping> out all of the electric meters in Omaha with units
that can be read via> radio signal. The meter readers now just drive a car
down the road> collecting readings from all the houses that they pass, saving
them a HUGE> number of man-hours to read the meters. The new meters don't have
a> spinning wheel anymore; they just have an LCD display that shows the>
reading. Also, about every 10 seconds or so, the display flashes a couple> of
times, changes to zeros, and then goes back to the normal reading.> > I hadn't
thought about it until Doug's post, but I wonder if it would be> possible to
have something in the house that would continuously read the> meter the same
way the power company does. I don't know if the meter is> continuously sending
out the information, possibly when it blinks, or if it> waits for a signal
from the car to tell it to send. I also don't know if> the signal has any sort
of encryption, though I don't know why it would> since you can walk right up
to anyone's meter and see the reading.> > Does anyone know anything about this
type of meter, and if anyone makes an> aftermarket product for reading them?>
> Mike Frerichs
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook  together at last.  Get it
now.
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971
033

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct 22 09:46:22 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:46:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W17D2E47322CB18A7D853FA9A9A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <494540.76997.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Clever idea, but if the meter itself is still
recording accurately, sooner or later they will
actually come and read it in person...

Doug


--- PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

> My hope is that they're using some sort of
> encryption, or at least
> authentication, b/c what would prevent someone from
> broadcasting a dummy
> signal, announcing a lower number of used watts than
> what is actually being
> used, in essence stealing from the power company. 
> I'm guess it's more of a
> problem for large commercial buildings where there
> is more to gain from
> under-reporting usage.

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Oct 22 09:54:57 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:54:57 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <494540.76997.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <494540.76997.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <471CC7D1.6010803@hornesystemstx.com>

They would at least be caught when they disconnect service, then they 
may have a whopper of a bill to pay!

Here in rural Central Texas they went to a system several years ago that 
had the meter call home on the phone line to report its usage. That 
lasted about as long as it took to install all the meters, then they 
swapped them out for meters that talked to the sub station over the 
power lines themselves. The meters still have rotors, but folks don't 
have to stay on the road all day reading meters and putting up with 
aggressive dogs!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Doug Braun:
> Clever idea, but if the meter itself is still
> recording accurately, sooner or later they will
> actually come and read it in person...
>
> Doug
>
>
> --- PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> My hope is that they're using some sort of
>> encryption, or at least
>> authentication, b/c what would prevent someone from
>> broadcasting a dummy
>> signal, announcing a lower number of used watts than
>> what is actually being
>> used, in essence stealing from the power company. 
>> I'm guess it's more of a
>> problem for large commercial buildings where there
>> is more to gain from
>> under-reporting usage.
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Oct 22 10:19:05 2007
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:19:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-W17D2E47322CB18A7D853FA9A9A0@phx.gbl>
References: <686428.73363.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<006901c8145a$dc686360$6601a8c0@proteus457>
	<BAY108-W17D2E47322CB18A7D853FA9A9A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>

PJ McGarvey wrote:
> I think their have been cases of the police using dramatic changes in power
> usage to detect things like illegal marijuana growing (all the lights needed)
> so this would be a good way to hide an operation.

   Here in Canada, it's much easier than that. The house without the 
snow on it's roof is a grow house!

-- 
Trevor Boicey, P. Eng.
Ottawa, Canada, trevor at boicey.com
ICQ #17432933 http://www.brit.ca/~tboicey/

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Oct 22 21:56:55 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:56:55 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
Message-ID: <102320070356.17877.471D710700092ED5000045D5220076370404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

it's scarier than that--here the city government owns the utility and reports any suspected usage patterns directly to the cops.  fortunately, they're not particularly intelligent cops.  we were moving into the house and I happened to stick my head into the attic: a load of bag of topsoil, pots and the big sodium light fixtures were staring back at me.  I'm not really into that scene; it took a friend of my brother's giving me the 'are you a retard' stare to get it to set in...

as far as I know, the metermaids have never visited the house...

although, I cannot imagine for the life of me why anybody'd take that risk in the house, there are several hundred acres behind the house that would require a tank with a hedgerow trimmer to access.  I could plant a crop to rival columbia back there and I don't think anyone would ever notice.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct 22 22:06:56 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:06:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <102320070356.17877.471D710700092ED5000045D5220076370404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <102320070356.17877.471D710700092ED5000045D5220076370404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710222106xee53e76t6d3e7a9e43b0430d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/22/07, scott.hall at comcast.net <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> it's scarier than that--here the city government owns the utility and reports any suspected usage patterns directly to the cops.  fortunately, they're not particularly intelligent cops.  we were moving into the house and I happened to

That's pretty standard behavior.  Utility records aren't protected.

>
> although, I cannot imagine for the life of me why anybody'd take that risk in the house, there are several hundred acres behind the house that would require a tank with a hedgerow trimmer to access.  I could plant a crop to rival columbia back there and I don't think anyone would ever notice.

Rented?


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mikel at ichips.intel.com  Wed Oct 24 14:38:10 2007
From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:38:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
Message-ID: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>

Not meaning to flog a dead horse....
I looked at my  Wedco oil pan, trying to find a part number for those 
interested in buying one.  Unfortunately, it doesn't have any such markings on 
it, and the place where I bought it (Automotion) was bought out by another 
company (Performance Products) a few years ago; they don't have anything like 
it anymore.  I'm going to search for the manufacturer next, but it looks like 
I may be stuck in the same boat as you folks now....

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 24 14:50:42 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:50:42 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/24/07, Mike Lee <mikel at ichips.intel.com> wrote:
> Not meaning to flog a dead horse....
> I looked at my  Wedco oil pan, trying to find a part number for those
> interested in buying one.  Unfortunately, it doesn't have any such markings on
> it, and the place where I bought it (Automotion) was bought out by another
> company (Performance Products) a few years ago; they don't have anything like
> it anymore.  I'm going to search for the manufacturer next, but it looks like
> I may be stuck in the same boat as you folks now....
Is it this one?
http://www.amazon.com/Wedco-Utility-Drain-gallon-Black/dp/B0002SR7SI/ref=sr_1_3/103-7181902-8716640?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193258980&sr=1-3



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Wed Oct 24 14:56:00 2007
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:56:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>

I have this one and I'm happy with it:

http://www.amazon.com/Blitz-USA-11838-Plastic-Drain/dp/B000AMGYNA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-0504979-9726309?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193259269&sr=1-2


On 10/24/07, David Scheidt <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/24/07, Mike Lee <mikel at ichips.intel.com> wrote:
> > Not meaning to flog a dead horse....
> > I looked at my  Wedco oil pan, trying to find a part number for those
> > interested in buying one.  Unfortunately, it doesn't have any such
> markings on
> > it, and the place where I bought it (Automotion) was bought out by
> another
> > company (Performance Products) a few years ago; they don't have anything
> like
> > it anymore.  I'm going to search for the manufacturer next, but it looks
> like
> > I may be stuck in the same boat as you folks now....
> Is it this one?
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Wedco-Utility-Drain-gallon-Black/dp/B0002SR7SI/ref=sr_1_3/103-7181902-8716640?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193258980&sr=1-3
>
>
>
> --
> David Scheidt
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> parkanzky at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Oct 24 15:01:18 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:01:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com>

Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> I have this one and I'm happy with it:
> http://www.amazon.com/Blitz-USA-11838-Plastic-Drain/dp/B000AMGYNA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-0504979-9726309?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193259269&sr=1-2

I bought what looks to be the same one at Auto Zone.  Just make sure it 
comes with all the caps!  My local A.Z. has taken to removing them and 
stashing behind the counter, due to too many walking out the door.

Previously, I was using an open-topped pan.  Realized I was spending too 
much effort and making too much pollution transferring it to a jug, 
mopping out the pan, etc.  Plus I like to cut open oil filters for 
inspection occasionally, and it's easy to leave them on top for an 
extended draining.

   -Wayne

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Oct 24 15:04:06 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:04:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071024210406.GC2133@slack.lne.com>

On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 04:56:00PM -0400, Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> I have this one and I'm happy with it:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Blitz-USA-11838-Plastic-Drain/dp/B000AMGYNA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-0504979-9726309?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193259269&sr=1-2
> 

I have one too, but I can't use it on all my vehicles.
It's too tall to fit under the (lowered) Eclipse, and the small tractor's
side mounted drain petcock needs a triangular oil pan to reach it.

Other than that it's pretty nice.  I like covered oil drain pans.  

Eric

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Oct 24 15:30:34 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:30:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL>

That's the one I have too.  Very satisfactory.

The conical plug in the pan is unique, but Blitz sent me several extras when 
my original one cracked.  The yellow vent plug is captive and can't be lost. 
The cap on the spout is the same as many gallon plastic jugs, like 
windshield washer fluid bottles.  I'm sure I've inadvertently traded mine 
once or twice at least, when using one of those jugs for waste oil.  No 
problem at all.

The pan sits on its side on the garage floor, slipped between my radial arm 
and table saws.  It's never leaked a drop.  When you drain it into a bottle, 
however, there's a tendency for a little oil to sit in the downturned spout. 
It'll plop onto the floor when you remove the drain cap unless you tip the 
pan backwards for a few seconds first.  Look at the picture and you'll see 
what I mean.  The pan would work just as well without that little downturn, 
but that's how it's shaped.

Karl



> Paul Parkanzky wrote:
>> I have this one and I'm happy with it:
>> http://www.amazon.com/Blitz-USA-11838-Plastic-Drain/dp/B000AMGYNA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-0504979-9726309?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193259269&sr=1-2
>
> I bought what looks to be the same one at Auto Zone.  Just make sure it
> comes with all the caps!  My local A.Z. has taken to removing them and
> stashing behind the counter, due to too many walking out the door. 

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Oct 24 15:46:49 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:46:49 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <20071024210406.GC2133@slack.lne.com>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071024210406.GC2133@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <0JQF005S3R80FJS0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Don't you have to lift the car?  I am definitely thicker than the 
pan.  If I can fit in to undo the drain plug, then the pan will 
fit.  You must be two dimensional.  Literally, not in the insulting way. :-)

At 05:04 PM 10/24/2007, ericm at lne.com wrote:

>I have one too, but I can't use it on all my vehicles.
>It's too tall to fit under the (lowered) Eclipse, and the small tractor's
>side mounted drain petcock needs a triangular oil pan to reach it.
>
>Other than that it's pretty nice.  I like covered oil drain pans.
>
>Eric
>___

From mikel at ichips.intel.com  Wed Oct 24 16:14:46 2007
From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:14:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
Message-ID: <200710242214.l9OMEkV4023135@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>

>Is it this one?
>http://www.amazon.com/Wedco-Utility-Drain-gallon-Black/dp/B0002SR7SI/ref=sr_1_
3/103-7181902-8716640?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193258980&sr=1-3

Wow, thanks Dave, that's the one!  You just save me an aggravating search!

I prefer this one over:
http://www.amazon.com/Blitz-USA-11838-Plastic-Drain/dp/B000AMGYNA/ref=pd_bbs_sr
_2/104-0504979-9726309?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1193259269&sr=1-2

I tried using one similar to the Blitz before, but the problem I had was that 
the draining oil would splash, and the drain pan did not have a lip which 
could catch it.  It ended up making a huge mess.  Sounds like other folks did 
not have the same problem.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 24 16:19:23 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:19:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <0JQF005S3R80FJS0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071024210406.GC2133@slack.lne.com>
	<0JQF005S3R80FJS0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710241519n3953d76cnca8b0ea469945884@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/24/07, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
> Don't you have to lift the car?  I am definitely thicker than the
> pan.  If I can fit in to undo the drain plug, then the pan will
> fit.  You must be two dimensional.  Literally, not in the insulting way. :-)
>

I've worked on cars where I can reach the drain plug without crawling
underneath.  I've got long arms.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Wed Oct 24 17:24:51 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:24:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710241519n3953d76cnca8b0ea469945884@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com>
	<bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071024210406.GC2133@slack.lne.com>
	<0JQF005S3R80FJS0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<2400a5d40710241519n3953d76cnca8b0ea469945884@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0JQF002CBVRCPZC1@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have found that a couple of sections of 2 x 10 lumber, or similar, 
perhaps a foot or so long can be very helpful.  They are way less 
hassle to drive on than ramps and that extra inch and a half can make 
a big difference.  On some low cars you can't even fit a jack 
underneath without doing something like this first.



>I've worked on cars where I can reach the drain plug without crawling
>underneath.  I've got long arms.
>
>--
>David Scheidt
>dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Oct 24 19:12:04 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:12:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <0JQF005S3R80FJS0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com><20071024210406.GC2133@slack.lne.com>
	<0JQF005S3R80FJS0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <012401c816a4$0efb7fb0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Steven,

While I've been accused of being shallow <grin> I can drain, and change the
filter on two of my four vehicles with the car on the ground because I can
do it all from the top.  I do not need to go under the car to do any part of
the oil change.  My standard drain pan does not fit under my 1960 Triumph
TR3 (lowered too much) but then again, the TR3 barely clears a speed bump.
The front is coming back up 5/8 of an inch this winter.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven
Trovato
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:47 PM
To: ericm at lne.com; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan

Don't you have to lift the car?  I am definitely thicker than the pan.  If I
can fit in to undo the drain plug, then the pan will fit.  You must be two
dimensional.  Literally, not in the insulting way. :-)

At 05:04 PM 10/24/2007, ericm at lne.com wrote:

>I have one too, but I can't use it on all my vehicles.
>It's too tall to fit under the (lowered) Eclipse, and the small 
>tractor's side mounted drain petcock needs a triangular oil pan to reach
it.
>
>Other than that it's pretty nice.  I like covered oil drain pans.
>
>Eric
>___
_______________________________________________
jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Oct 25 06:17:39 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:17:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com> <001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <001601c81701$09a789c0$1cf69d40$@mele@usermail.com>

<<That's the one I have too.  Very satisfactory.

The conical plug in the pan is unique, but Blitz sent me several extras when

my original one cracked>>


Amazingly, I also have had this pan for years.
All the recent comments apply, esp'ly the drip when you open the spout.  My
conical plug is also cracked, tho.

I did a quick google search...didn't see a place to order the conical drain
plugs...anyone remember the link?

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Oct 25 06:34:21 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:34:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com> <001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<001601c81701$09a789c0$1cf69d40$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c81703$5f73bb60$6e01a8c0@KARL>

It didn't come up the first few searches I did either - Blitz drain pans did 
it.

http://www.blitzusa.com/

Karl



> Amazingly, I also have had this pan for years.
> All the recent comments apply, esp'ly the drip when you open the spout. 
> My
> conical plug is also cracked, tho.
>
> I did a quick google search...didn't see a place to order the conical 
> drain
> plugs...anyone remember the link?

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Oct 25 07:55:26 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:55:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW, I never thought I'd say this about Harbor Freight!
Message-ID: <OFDEDDB89D.B995BC56-ON8525737F.004C7CC2-8525737F.004C7CC5@mail.megageek.com>

So about a week ago, I have a stack of HF gift cards (I use their credit
card and get them all the time.)  So I decided to pick up some random
items.  I decide that my 30 old jigsaw needs to retire, maybe I'll get one
from HF.  Also, I do alot of masonry cutting with my circ saw and it kills
them.  I figure I'll get one from HF that I can use as a throw away.

So for $80 total, I buy these 2 items, totally expecting to get Chinese
garbage.  I opened the box yesterday and I couldn't believe it!

The jig saw...
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94560

Is as high quality as anything I've seen in a store.  When I ordered it, I
figured the orbital cutting and laser guide are gimmicks at best.  But the
dang thing works great!  Feels secure and not cheap thin plastic.  I would
have been happy with the purchase at twice what I paid for it.

As for the circ saw, same experience.  It's got snot to spare.  My only
complaint about this is that the laser guide needs separate batteries.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95004

Now, granted, I don't know how long these will last, but I would put money
up to bet they will last as long as anything I could have bought from Home
Dipstick or Sears for twice the price.  And if they quit in a few uses,
they weren't that pricy to just buy another one.

I'm guessing that these things are dripping in lead paint and poisonous pet
food, but that's fine with me.  Kids shouldn't be touching my tools anyway!

So, I found a great store close by and I get a great deal on HF tools?
What is going to happen now for my karma to reset.  What's that letter over
there?  Oh crap, it's a deployment notice.  Iraq, I'll see you this summer,
(Again!)

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Oct 25 09:21:50 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:21:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com><471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com>
	<001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL><001601c81701$09a789c0$1cf69d40$@mele@usermail.com>
	<000e01c81703$5f73bb60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <003e01c8171a$ce2bbaa0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

I wonder if 'Blitz' is wondering why they are seeing a sudden surge in
requests for replacement oil pan drain plugs?

I used their contact link to request a replacement plug - got a reply
less than 30 minutes later (from Melissa no less...) stating they'll
mail me some plugs (note plural).

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Vacek"
> http://www.blitzusa.com/
>
>
>> My conical plug is also cracked, tho.
>>
>> I did a quick google search...didn't see a place to order the
>> conical drain plugs...anyone remember the link?

From pethier at comcast.net  Thu Oct 25 08:53:03 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:53:03 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
Message-ID: <102520071453.15011.4720ADCF0003AFE000003AA322134843739D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: eric at megageek.com

> The jig saw...
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94560

When I was young, this was called a sabre saw.  A jig saw was what now seems to be known as a scroll saw. Whatever.

Is that a hookup for a shop vac?  Neat.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Oct 25 08:54:49 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <OFDEDDB89D.B995BC56-ON8525737F.004C7CC2-8525737F.004C7CC5@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <294803.34323.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Some HF items are stone-age-quality junk, and some are
reasonably well-made and very well-priced.  The trick
is knowing which is which.

Sometimes they also have a couple of items that appear
virtually identical, but have separate catalog
numbers, and one is on sale for half the price of the
other.

if you learn of an especially good (or bad) item, let
the list know!  I recently got their AC manifold gauge
set (92649-0VGA) for $39, and it we pretty nice.

Doug

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Oct 25 09:14:51 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:14:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <OFDEDDB89D.B995BC56-ON8525737F.004C7CC2-8525737F.004C7CC5@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <20071025151451.TVTJ17119.mta11.adelphia.net@randall>

> Oh crap, it's a deployment notice.  

Well, that sux!

Here's hoping it's a short, safe trip !!

Randall

From eric at megageek.com  Thu Oct 25 09:22:58 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:22:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
Message-ID: <OFAB982353.EC7408B3-ON8525737F.00548040-8525737F.00548043@mail.megageek.com>

Phil asks...

>Is that a hookup for a shop vac?  Neat.

Yes, that surprised me as well!



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Thu Oct 25 09:30:34 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:30:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <003e01c8171a$ce2bbaa0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com><471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com><001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL><001601c81701$09a789c0$1cf69d40$@mele@usermail.com><000e01c81703$5f73bb60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<003e01c8171a$ce2bbaa0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7978059AB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

I've been reading about the Blitz oil pan here on the list...

Apparently I have an older version of the pan - it's at least 15 years
old.  I don't have the conical plug, my plug is rather large and not
conical - and has never cracked.  It also always leaked a bit when the
pan was turned on end.  I finally fixed that by slipping a large O-ring
around the plug that seals when it's screwed down - never a drop of leak
since then.  The pour spout also leaked, but I replaced that cap with
one from a pop bottle with a plastic seal under the cap - it's never
leaked since.

I also have one of their yellow "open top" versions of the same pan -
it's perfect for draining radiators and pouring the used coolant into
bottles for disposal.


Tim Mullen

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Thu Oct 25 09:48:33 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:48:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde
	53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com><471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com><001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL><001601
	c81701$09a789c0$1cf69d40$@mele@usermail.com><000e01c81703$5f73bb60$6e01a8c0@KARL><003e01c8171a$ce2bbaa0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7978059AB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <000601c8171e$831a0f40$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>

Interesting thread to follow.  I tried a pan like these once, never again. 
The hot oil splattering off the flat surface was not pleasant.  I never 
quite managed to make an overflow mess, but one leaf would have sure done 
the job.

I much prefer an open bottom unit, and then dump that into a 5-gallon bucket 
or such until it's full. 

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Thu Oct 25 10:04:41 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:04:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan
In-Reply-To: <000601c8171e$831a0f40$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
References: <200710242038.l9OKcAIG019295@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com><2400a5d40710241350t50fcd534r3528a393fa8a749@mail.gmail.com><bdde53220710241356l7e491c1g9b078a6edba438ff@mail.gmail.com><471FB29E.9000707@xxiii.com><001901c81685$1d325b40$6e01a8c0@KARL><001601c81701$09a789c0$1cf69d40$@mele@usermail.com><000e01c81703$5f73bb60$6e01a8c0@KARL><003e01c8171a$ce2bbaa0$0202a8c0@ejrussell><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7978059AB@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<000601c8171e$831a0f40$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7978059F7@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Nolan wrote:
>
> Interesting thread to follow.  I tried a pan like
> these once, never again.
> The hot oil splattering off the flat surface was
> not pleasant.

Hmmmmm...

I've had the opposite experience.  Every time I pulled out an open top
container, it would tend to slosh over the top and spill.

My Blitz has a slopped (toward the center "drain") surface, not "flat".
If I drop the oil pan plug, it doesn't drop to the bottom of the hot oil
in the pan (there's a grid in the drain to keep if from falling
through).  And the oil never sloshes out.

Maybe the difference is that the Blitz pans are a couple of feet across,
so it catches everything.  I've had a small rectangular catch pan in the
past that never worked right since it was too small.

I do have a problem when I change oil in my truck - the drop is so high
that the oil stream tends to get blown around by the wind, but that
happens with any pan.  I cured that problem with one of those Fram "Sure
Drains" that uses a screw on hose to drain the pan - no more splatter.

Tim Mullen

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 11:09:18 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:09:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <294803.34323.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <OFDEDDB89D.B995BC56-ON8525737F.004C7CC2-8525737F.004C7CC5@mail.megageek.com>
	<294803.34323.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710251009r1dd82110rf059a02e7971d4d2@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/07, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
> Some HF items are stone-age-quality junk, and some are
> reasonably well-made and very well-priced.  The trick
> is knowing which is which.
>

And, of course, they've got the wonderful problem that there's not any
quality control.  A few years ago, I bought three 4.5" angle grinders
at the same time.  They were on sale for some really cheap price ($10
I think.).  I was doing a big welding project, and it's handy to have
a cut off wheel in one, a grinding disk in another, and a flapwheel or
wire brush in another, so you don't have ever change them out.  One
lasted about three days, the second a bit longer, but the third is
still going strong.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Oct 25 13:40:19 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:40:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
Message-ID: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Thank you - I thought I was the only old coot who still called sabre saws
 sabre saws and jig saws jig saws.

 For more confusion, when they were still sabre saws, Sears sold a model 
with
 a knob on top that turned the blade relative to the saw - and ISTR they
 called it a scrolling sabre saw.

 Wasn't a scroll saw originally a more refined, professional version of a 
jig
 saw that had additional control over the direction of the blade or 
something
 like that ??  Like those big old Delta scroll saws I used to see ??

 Karl



>> The jig saw...
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94560
>
> When I was young, this was called a sabre saw.  A jig saw was what now 
> seems to be known as a scroll saw. Whatever.

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 13:49:26 2007
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:49:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <bdde53220710251249re8656d8gb0c6eda2e011667b@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/07, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> For more confusion, when they were still sabre saws, Sears sold a model
> with
> a knob on top that turned the blade relative to the saw - and ISTR they
> called it a scrolling sabre saw.
> Karl


I have that saw in my garage!  It was my father's, then my older brother's,
and now mine.

-Paul

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Oct 25 15:42:01 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:42:01 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor    Freight!
In-Reply-To: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <0a7201c8174f$e0bfcaa0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

>  Wasn't a scroll saw originally a more refined, professional 
> version of a 
> jig
>  saw that had additional control over the direction of the blade or 
> something
>  like that ??  Like those big old Delta scroll saws I used to see ??

I was told that a scroll saw supports the blade from both ends (allowing use
of very thin blades for turning sharp corners), while a jig saw only
supports the blade from one end (requiring a thicker blade).   A sabre saw
is more like a Sawz-all, but also only supports one end like a jig saw.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Oct 25 17:24:20 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:24:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <0a7201c8174f$e0bfcaa0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<0a7201c8174f$e0bfcaa0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <0JQH00F7DQCN3IB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, then I think I'm going to go work on a scroll saw puzzle. 

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Oct 25 19:51:58 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:51:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
In-Reply-To: <0JQH00F7DQCN3IB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <662245.14962.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

They're actually all die cut...

--- Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:

> Well, then I think I'm going to go work on a scroll
> saw puzzle. 

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Oct 25 20:20:58 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:20:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <662245.14962.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <0JQH00F7DQCN3IB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<662245.14962.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0JQH00JN2YJ9N7C0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Well, mine is one of those wooden kindergarten puzzles, with like 5 
pieces.  If I ever master that, maybe I'll move up to the grown up 
die cut kind. :-)

At 09:51 PM 10/25/2007, Doug Braun wrote:
>They're actually all die cut...
>
>--- Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > Well, then I think I'm going to go work on a scroll
> > saw puzzle.

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Oct 25 21:47:08 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:47:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] puzzles (was: WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this  about Harbor Freight!)
References: <0JQH00F7DQCN3IB0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><662245.14962.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<0JQH00JN2YJ9N7C0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <007e01c81782$ea386190$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

http://www.ajokes.com/jokes/714.html

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 

> Well, mine is one of those wooden kindergarten puzzles, with like 5
> pieces.  If I ever master that, maybe I'll move up to the grown up
> die cut kind. :-)

From Carscarscarz at aol.com  Fri Oct 26 00:17:29 2007
From: Carscarscarz at aol.com (Carscarscarz at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 02:17:29 EDT
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
	I never thought I'd say this about Harbor Freight!
Message-ID: <bd5.1b970f05.3452e079@aol.com>

I, too, have found some pretty good items at HF. Sunday I was in HF and found
what looked like a too-good-to-be-true dial caliper for $20:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=5658

I had to buy as they seemed surprisingly well made. I checked them against my
Starrett  model 120A-6:

http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/catalog/ItemAttributes.asp?ItemID=230&Group
ID=346&TableNum=1

They both agree on all the drills, ball bearings and feeler gauges I checked.
 A very happy turn. Even the case is reasonably well done.

What really really surprised me are the feelers.  Of six sets the three
Craftsman  read slightly thick on most of the sizes I checked, especially over
0.015". The other brands are pretty much correct.

So for $20 I got good dial calipers. Now I need to get a mic to recheck the
feelers...

~Steve
Steve Levine
Studio City, CA
**************************************
 See what's new at
http://www.aol.com

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Fri Oct 26 03:37:31 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 05:37:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor    Freight!
References: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>

http://roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/craftsman1959.pdf

Look on page 45 of the PDF.  There's the earliest sabre saw with the 
rotating blade I can find.

Look on page 20 of the PDR for the jig saws, nowadays called scroll saws.

Page 42, you'll notice it's still not called a circular saw, it's a power 
saw.  Though on page 48, you'll find an attachment to make your drill a 
"circular saw".




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] WOW,I never thought I'd say this about Harbor 
Freight!


> Thank you - I thought I was the only old coot who still called sabre saws
> sabre saws and jig saws jig saws.
>
> For more confusion, when they were still sabre saws, Sears sold a model
> with
> a knob on top that turned the blade relative to the saw - and ISTR they
> called it a scrolling sabre saw.
>
> Wasn't a scroll saw originally a more refined, professional version of a
> jig
> saw that had additional control over the direction of the blade or
> something
> like that ??  Like those big old Delta scroll saws I used to see ??
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>>> The jig saw...
>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94560
>>
>> When I was young, this was called a sabre saw.  A jig saw was what now
>> seems to be known as a scroll saw. Whatever.
> _______________________________________________

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 05:32:51 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <bd5.1b970f05.3452e079@aol.com>
Message-ID: <171954.82171.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The digital version is on sale fro $15.99 at the
moment:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47257

I've ha done of these for a few years, and it has been
extremely handy.  It matches a micrometer as well
as I would expect.  At this price there is no excuse
for not owning a caliper.

Doug


--- Carscarscarz at aol.com wrote:

> I, too, have found some pretty good items at HF.
> Sunday I was in HF and found
> what looked like a too-good-to-be-true dial caliper
> for $20:
> 
>
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=5658
> 
> I had to buy as they seemed surprisingly well made.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 05:36:38 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:36:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor     Freight!
In-Reply-To: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <202601.8252.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'd love to see some nominations for the lamest drill
accessories ever made...

Doug


--- Nolan <foxtrapper at aceweb.com> wrote:
 Though on page 48, you'll find an attachment
> to make your drill a 
> "circular saw".

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 05:56:34 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor     Freight!
In-Reply-To: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <888695.15593.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That old Sears catalog was interesting!

It's funny how many accessories they made for some
bigger tools, trying to get the most use possible from
the main motor.

At the time (1959) their cheapest circular saw was
$29.95.  Today Sears.com's cheapest circular saw is
$29.98.  Adjusted for inflation, the 1959 saw would
cost $207 today!

Doug 

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Oct 26 06:20:28 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:20:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <888695.15593.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net>

At 04:56 AM 10/26/2007 -0700, Doug Braun  wrote:

>That old Sears catalog was interesting!
>
>At the time (1959) their cheapest circular saw was
>$29.95.  Today Sears.com's cheapest circular saw is
>$29.98.  Adjusted for inflation, the 1959 saw would
>cost $207 today!

Doug,

I remember getting my 1st socket set, an Industro 3/8" drive.
It was equivilant to Craftsman at the time.  It was $20 and
it took me a month to save $20.  

and on page 5 of the catalog:

http://roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/craftsman196
0.pdf

is the 1/2" drive soceket set my parents gave me for my 21 Birthday.


John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Oct 26 06:21:10 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:21:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071026082110.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net>

At 04:32 AM 10/26/2007 -0700, Doug Brauun wrote:

>The digital version is on sale fro $15.99 at the
>moment:
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47257

That one is very nice.  They also make one for about $7 on sale.  It
doesn't have a case nor does it have the finger that slides out the tail
for measuring depth.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93293

Since it doesn't come with a case, you have to be careful how and where
you store it.  I had it in a bag of tools, and it got turned on by something
on top of it.  That killed the battery very quickly.

I also have several of their plastic ones $2 ea.  I use them all the time
when I'm measuring bolts, etc. that don't have to be that exact.  And if
I break/loose one, I'm not out anything.  Which I didn't see in their
online catalog. :(  Hope their still making them.

Another very nice toy is their IR thermometers

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91778

I've had mine for over a year now.  Don't use it a lot, but when you want
to see if a brake is dragging, the AC vent temps, or radiator temps, it's
fantastic!!


John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 07:36:26 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:36:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor    Freight!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071026080935.00c42390@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <779233.2776.qm@web614.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The model I have has in interesting property:  It is
actually on all the time.  The "power" switch just
blanks the display.  If you turn it off, adjust it to
a new setting, and turn it on again, the display reads
the correct value.

The battery only lasts about 8 months, but you can get
a card of about 10 of those little batteries for a
dollar at a dollar store.  (Beats paying $2 each!)

Doug


--- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:
 
> Since it doesn't come with a case, you have to be
> careful how and where
> you store it.  I had it in a bag of tools, and it
> got turned on by something
> on top of it.  That killed the battery very quickly.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Oct 26 08:45:41 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:45:41 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor     Freight!
References: <001c01c8173e$e09ac630$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<0a7201c8174f$e0bfcaa0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <00b901c817de$e2aebc60$6e01a8c0@KARL>

My semi-old (early 1970's) sabre saw (from Black & Decker's first days of 
cheapness - they made only pro-type stuff before that) has a bearing just 
above the shoe to guide the blade, thus giving it a little more support than 
a Sawzall.  But you're right - it's a dagger-type blade held at one end 
only.  A jig saw holds both ends of the blade in parallel-moving jaws, for 
instance a Dremel jig saw.  Or does Dremel call them scroll saws now ?  Mine 
is from 1956 and says jig saw on it.

In any event, a jigsaw is a bench tool with a table the stock rides on, it's 
not a hand-held portable tool.  I always thought that a scroll saw had more 
rigid upper and lower supports, long beams riding on bearings that kept the 
blade moving quite vertically and accurately with only a bit of 
reciprocating action, whereas a jig saw (at least the Dremels) had short 
leaf-type spring beams to support the blade, and allowed lots more flex, not 
for any purpose but just because of the simpler, cheaper design.

To further complicate this, I also have a Dremel Moto-Saw, which basically 
an electric coping saw that uses the regular Dremel jigsaw blades  .It's 
from the late 1940's I think - my Dad had it as long as I can remember. 
It's clearly an older vintage than my 1956 Dremel jig saw.

Karl




>>  Wasn't a scroll saw originally a more refined, professional
>> version of a
>> jig
>>  saw that had additional control over the direction of the blade or
>> something
>>  like that ??  Like those big old Delta scroll saws I used to see ??
>
> I was told that a scroll saw supports the blade from both ends (allowing 
> use
> of very thin blades for turning sharp corners), while a jig saw only
> supports the blade from one end (requiring a thicker blade).   A sabre saw
> is more like a Sawz-all, but also only supports one end like a jig saw.

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Oct 26 09:14:53 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:14:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
	<3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

John T. Blair wrote:
>
> I remember getting my 1st socket set, an
> Industro 3/8" drive.
> It was equivilant to Craftsman at the time.
> It was $20 and it took me a month to save $20.

It wasn't my first socket set, but I still have - and more importantly,
use -the 43 piece 1/4 inch socket set on page 6.n   8-)

http://roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/craftsma
n1960.pdf



Tim Mullen

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 09:38:57 2007
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:38:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
	<3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220710260838o72cb59acq480f3dfb83c7670f@mail.gmail.com>

Does anybody still make something like the "Speeder Ratchet" on page 7?

-Paul

On 10/26/07, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
>
> John T. Blair wrote:
> >
> > I remember getting my 1st socket set, an
> > Industro 3/8" drive.
> > It was equivilant to Craftsman at the time.
> > It was $20 and it took me a month to save $20.
>
> It wasn't my first socket set, but I still have - and more importantly,
> use -the 43 piece 1/4 inch socket set on page 6.n   8-)
>
> http://roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/craftsma
> n1960.pdf
>
>
>
> Tim Mullen
> _______________________________________________
> parkanzky at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Oct 26 09:58:36 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:58:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220710260838o72cb59acq480f3dfb83c7670f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us><3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<bdde53220710260838o72cb59acq480f3dfb83c7670f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805FAE@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Paul Parkanzky wrote:
>
> Does anybody still make something like the "Speeder Ratchet" on page
7?

Sure, Craftsman sells them,

And here's a lint to Snap-Ons:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=all&Group_ID=232&store=sna
pon-store

Tim Mullen

From parkanzky at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 10:13:37 2007
From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:13:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805FAE@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
	<3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<bdde53220710260838o72cb59acq480f3dfb83c7670f@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805FAE@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <bdde53220710260913x38126576me99fddd4eee926a8@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Tim, but those are what I would call 'speed wrenches.'  I should have
been more specific.  Look at page 7, item #6.  The speed wrench comes out of
the plane of the work like a brace (I should get one of those too, they're
handy).  The "speed ratchet" I'm talking about is different, though.

-Paul

On 10/26/07, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:

> Paul Parkanzky wrote:
> >
> > Does anybody still make something like the "Speeder Ratchet" on page
> 7?
>
> Sure, Craftsman sells them,
>
> And here's a lint to Snap-Ons:
> http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=all&Group_ID=232&store=sna
> pon-store
>
> Tim Mullen

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Fri Oct 26 10:30:28 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:30:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220710260913x38126576me99fddd4eee926a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us><3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com><bdde53220710260838o72cb59acq480f3dfb83c7670f@mail.gmail.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805FAE@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<bdde53220710260913x38126576me99fddd4eee926a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805FFD@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Paul Parkanzky wrote:
>
> but those are what I would call 'speed wrenches.'
> I should have been more specific.  Look at page 7, item #6.


Woops!  I missed the "ratchet" part - sorry about that...

I've never seen one of those things.

But I do, kind of, have one - mine doesn't have the "counter balance"
extension with the ratchet in the middle.

Mine is a regular 1/4 inch ratchet that someone welded a spinning handle
on the end -I bought it in a flea market for a buck about ten years ago.
The home made "speed ratchet" is the first one I grab when I'm working
with 1/4 inch sockets (which is often when working on car engines).
It's very handy.

Tim Mullen

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 11:14:28 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:14:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <bdde53220710260913x38126576me99fddd4eee926a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
	<3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<bdde53220710260838o72cb59acq480f3dfb83c7670f@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797805FAE@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<bdde53220710260913x38126576me99fddd4eee926a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710261014y55f1813t87fe0b83dab595a1@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/26/07, Paul Parkanzky <parkanzky at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Tim, but those are what I would call 'speed wrenches.'  I should have
> been more specific.  Look at page 7, item #6.  The speed wrench comes out of
> the plane of the work like a brace (I should get one of those too, they're
> handy).  The "speed ratchet" I'm talking about is different, though.

that's cool.  I've never seen anything likethat.  that sort of
suggests it doesn't really work as well you'd think?
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Fri Oct 26 11:31:46 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:31:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us><3.0.5.32.20071026082028.00ad1c28@pop.east.cox.net><9C2F69BA6FB69F43A
	BCDBCFFC282C797805F1D@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
	<bdde53220710260838o72cb59acq480f3dfb83c7670f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c817f6$157d0e50$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>

Here's one for sale right now on e-bay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Craftsman-3-8-Drive-Ratchet-Spinner-Speeder_W0QQitemZ250180344064QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Parkanzky" <parkanzky at gmail.com>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] WOW,I never thought I'd say this about Harbor 
Freight!


> Does anybody still make something like the "Speeder Ratchet" on page 7?
>
> -Paul
>
> On 10/26/07, Mullen, Tim <Tim.Mullen at ngc.com> wrote:
>>
>> John T. Blair wrote:
>> >
>> > I remember getting my 1st socket set, an
>> > Industro 3/8" drive.
>> > It was equivilant to Craftsman at the time.
>> > It was $20 and it took me a month to save $20.
>>
>> It wasn't my first socket set, but I still have - and more importantly,
>> use -the 43 piece 1/4 inch socket set on page 6.n   8-)
>>
>> http://roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/craftsma
>> n1960.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Mullen
>> _______________________________________________
>> parkanzky at gmail.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
> _______________________________________________
> foxtrapper at aceweb.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk 

From lane495 at nctc.com  Fri Oct 26 11:59:28 2007
From: lane495 at nctc.com (Patricia Lane)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:59:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Heater Suggestions
Message-ID: <00a001c817f9$f9c82c40$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>

Hi all,

   Finally getting around to wiring the garage.  I need suggestions on
heaters.  I'd prefer electric, forced air.  I don't have, nor want propane.
The only one I've found is:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200316377_
200316377

The garage is 32 x 28 with a 10' ceiling.  My electrician (husband) doesn't
want to put two heaters in, since they each require a 220 wire, but I'm sure I
can talk him into it if that's what the garage needs.  He's thinking about a
wall heater like what is in hotel rooms.  I'm thinking ceiling heaters that
blow the air to the center of the garage.

I am mainly concerned with keeping the garage at 50 degrees during the cold
spells to protect my paint and body supplies.  I live in the Nashville area so
it doesn't stay cold long.  Air conditioning is not required.

Thanks for any help!

Patricia

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Oct 26 12:26:57 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:26:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Heater Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <00a001c817f9$f9c82c40$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
References: <00a001c817f9$f9c82c40$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710261422230.25941@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

I'm in the same boat.  Well, except that I'm the electrician... :-)

>From what I've seen, if you decide you need more than around 10k watts, 
you're going to have to have two heaters.  But if the space you're talking 
about is insulated, etc. etc. I'd imagine you'd only need one.

McMaster has some good info about it.  I can't give you a direct link, but 
if you go to http://www.mcmaster.com and search on "electric heater", one 
of the links it'll show you takes you to a nice page about heaters in 
general that'll help you calculate what you need and there are a good 
number of models on the following pages.

Mark

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Patricia Lane wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>   Finally getting around to wiring the garage.  I need suggestions on
> heaters.  I'd prefer electric, forced air.  I don't have, nor want propane.
> The only one I've found is:
>
> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200316377_
> 200316377
>
> The garage is 32 x 28 with a 10' ceiling.  My electrician (husband) doesn't
> want to put two heaters in, since they each require a 220 wire, but I'm sure I
> can talk him into it if that's what the garage needs.  He's thinking about a
> wall heater like what is in hotel rooms.  I'm thinking ceiling heaters that
> blow the air to the center of the garage.
>
> I am mainly concerned with keeping the garage at 50 degrees during the cold
> spells to protect my paint and body supplies.  I live in the Nashville area so
> it doesn't stay cold long.  Air conditioning is not required.
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
> Patricia
> _______________________________________________
> mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Oct 26 12:52:32 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:52:32 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Heater Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <00a001c817f9$f9c82c40$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
References: <00a001c817f9$f9c82c40$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <47223770.4000601@xxiii.com>

Patricia Lane wrote:
> The garage is 32 x 28 with a 10' ceiling.  My electrician (husband) doesn't
> want to put two heaters in, since they each require a 220 wire, but I'm sure I
> can talk him into it if that's what the garage needs.  He's thinking about a

I'd be afraid of the electric bills even one of those would run up!  At 10Kw, it's gonna cost $1/hour, give or take, which can run up real fast.  I'm in Asheville, NC with (I think) pretty similar winters.  My garage is under the house, and partially below grade, and hangs around 50dF all winter, anyway.  I have a kitchen oven I use for powder coating, and tried using it as a space heater one winter and got a monthly electric bill about $240 higher than usual!  (ouch) You mentioned the hotel style wall units -- most those are heat pumps, which would be cheaper to operate.  The AC in the summer would be a plus, and would also help by dehumidifying.

  -Wayne

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Oct 26 12:54:50 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:54:50 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Garage Heater Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <00a001c817f9$f9c82c40$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
References: <00a001c817f9$f9c82c40$6401a8c0@anubisreturns>
Message-ID: <0JQJ00F488M23I51@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Without doing any real analysis, I would say that the heater you 
propose will more than do the job.  Maintaining 50 in Nashville 
doesn't sound like that great of a challenge if we're talking about a 
reasonably well constructed and insulated garage.  Of course if it's 
a barn where you can see daylight through the boards, that's a 
different story.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 14:42:43 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
Message-ID: <404721.11665.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

My house has 200-amp electrical service.  The wires
come from the pole to the meter on the side of the
house, and then to the circuit breaker panel in the
basement.  The panel is a 70's era "ITC Pushmatic". 
The odd thing about it is that it has no single master
circuit breaker, but about six: One for each big 220v
load like the stove, the dryer, and my air compressor,
and two 60 amp breakers for two sub-busses that have
all the 15 and 20 amp lighting and outlet circuits.

The funny thing is that all these "primary disconnect
breakers" add up to 280 amps, which is more than the
200 amp service I have.  So what is protecting my
electrical service?  Could there be 200 amp fuses in
the meter box?  The meter box is a bit bigger than the
meter, but it has no disconnect switch on it, and it
is sealed by the electric company.

Thanks,
Doug

From mwhart47 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 26 16:23:37 2007
From: mwhart47 at yahoo.com (mike hart)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <404721.11665.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <525939.22069.qm@web56011.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Doug,You have what is referred to as a split bus
panel. These no longer meet code for the reason you
stated, no main disconnect. The sum of your breakers
is within the 200 Amp main feed, as you will probably
never have every thing on at once. Load is calculated
as a percentage of everything on. Meter will have no
fuses. Hope this helps. Mike
--- Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> My house has 200-amp electrical service.  The wires
> come from the pole to the meter on the side of the
> house, and then to the circuit breaker panel in the
> basement.  The panel is a 70's era "ITC Pushmatic". 
> The odd thing about it is that it has no single
> master
> circuit breaker, but about six: One for each big
> 220v
> load like the stove, the dryer, and my air
> compressor,
> and two 60 amp breakers for two sub-busses that have
> all the 15 and 20 amp lighting and outlet circuits.
> 
> The funny thing is that all these "primary
> disconnect
> breakers" add up to 280 amps, which is more than the
> 200 amp service I have.  So what is protecting my
> electrical service?  Could there be 200 amp fuses in
> the meter box?  The meter box is a bit bigger than
> the
> meter, but it has no disconnect switch on it, and it
> is sealed by the electric company.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> mwhart47 at yahoo.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Oct 26 18:36:57 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:36:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <404721.11665.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <404721.11665.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0JQJ00AIYODU3R60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

BTW, It's ITE, not ITC.  I'm not saying that just to be obnoxious.  I 
just figured it might make an internet search more successful.  Also, 
from what I understand, the pushmatic breakers are expensive 
now.  This apparently leads people to replace the whole panel when 
they need a few breakers.  

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 18:54:57 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:54:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <0JQJ00AIYODU3R60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <927152.50222.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've already web-searched "Pushmatic", and learned of
two schools of thought:  first that the breakers are
expensive and it is an oddball design you should get
rid of, and second that it is one of the few panels
where the breakers are actually screwed into place, so
it should be more reliable.

I saw some Pushmatic breakers for sale on some
electrical supply web site.  They were rather
expensive, but I could buy one and install it myself
for a lot less money than an average person would have
to pay for an electrician to come and replace a
cheaper type of breaker.

The only problem is that all the 220-volt breakers
would have to be replaced hot, and be unscrewed and
screwed to the hot bus bars instead of simply being
plugged in.  And with no master disconnect or
overcurrent protection, I would be afraid to try that
myself!

Doug

--- Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:

> BTW, It's ITE, not ITC.  I'm not saying that just to
> be obnoxious.  I 
> just figured it might make an internet search more
> successful.  Also, 
> from what I understand, the pushmatic breakers are
> expensive 
> now.  This apparently leads people to replace the
> whole panel when 
> they need a few breakers.  

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 19:31:19 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:31:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <202601.8252.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
	<202601.8252.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360710261831q4a3c440fsdb5a21259d2cdfed@mail.gmail.com>

*I nominate the plastic pump shown in ads pumping out a huge flooded
basement!*

On 10/26/07, Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:
>
> I'd love to see some nominations for the lamest drill
> accessories ever made...
>
> Doug
>
>
> --- Nolan <foxtrapper at aceweb.com> wrote:
> Though on page 48, you'll find an attachment
> > to make your drill a
> > "circular saw".
> _______________________________________________
> eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Oct 26 19:52:04 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 18:52:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <927152.50222.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071027015204.QBME26097.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>

> And with no 
> master disconnect or overcurrent protection, I would be 
> afraid to try that myself!

Isn't the meter itself installed into a socket ?  That's how you kill the
power to my panels ...

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Oct 26 19:53:25 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:53:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <202601.8252.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <003b01c817b3$d51d4830$2929c40a@mde.state.md.us>
	<202601.8252.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0JQJ0047CRXJESG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Disclaimer #1:  If you're easily offended, stop reading and pretend 
you never saw this message.

Disclaimer #2:  I have no actual personal experience with this drill accessory.

OK, I nominate the drilldo.  Google it if you dare.  I don't think 
they carry this at Harbor Freight.

At 07:36 AM 10/26/2007, Doug Braun wrote:
>I'd love to see some nominations for the lamest drill
>accessories ever made...

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 20:04:42 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <20071027015204.QBME26097.mta15.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <971054.44346.qm@web608.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That would definitely work, but theoretically I would
have to call the power company to come out and do it,
since the box is sealed.

doug


--- Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

> Isn't the meter itself installed into a socket ? 
> That's how you kill the
> power to my panels ...

From mrjones2 at ix.netcom.com  Fri Oct 26 20:19:36 2007
From: mrjones2 at ix.netcom.com (Kendall Jones)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:19:36 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
In-Reply-To: <0JQJ0047CRXJESG0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAASXcAohRu9Gu0vi+GqZE/nCgAAAEAAAADq2tQZ8sKFGuVytZ+T8/f0BAAAAAA==@ix.netcom.com>

Actually, that's what my customers at MetCo (Milwaukee Electric Tool) call
the cordless screwdriver tools.  In house of course.

Kendall

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+mrjones2=ix.netcom.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+mrjones2=ix.netcom.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Steven Trovato
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 9:53 PM
To: Doug Braun; Shop-Talk List
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] WOW, I never thought I'd say this about Harbor
Freight!

Disclaimer #1:  If you're easily offended, stop reading and pretend 
you never saw this message.

Disclaimer #2:  I have no actual personal experience with this drill
accessory.

OK, I nominate the drilldo.  Google it if you dare.  I don't think 
they carry this at Harbor Freight.

At 07:36 AM 10/26/2007, Doug Braun wrote:
>I'd love to see some nominations for the lamest drill
>accessories ever made...
_______________________________________________
mrjones2 at ix.netcom.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Fri Oct 26 21:00:40 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:00:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <927152.50222.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <0JQJ00AIYODU3R60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<927152.50222.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01a901c81845$8f05ef40$6601a8c0@proteus457>

Bingo!  That's the other reason people get rid of Pushmatics.

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Braun
> 
Snip
>
> The only problem is that all the 220-volt breakers
> would have to be replaced hot, and be unscrewed and
> screwed to the hot bus bars instead of simply being
> plugged in.  And with no master disconnect or
> overcurrent protection, I would be afraid to try that
> myself!
> 
> Doug

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 21:32:52 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I ended up buying a "TED 1000":

   www.theenergydetective.com

I'm quite happy with it.  It works well, it's well
made,  reasonably priced, and quite accurate (within
1-2% of my electric meter).

It consists of a pair of clamp-on current sensors to
measure the current in the main lines to your circuit
breaker panel, which plug into a little black box
connected to one of your circuits, which measures the
voltage and sends the voltage/current data through
your wiring to the readout unit (which can be plugged
in anywhere).

I discovered that my house has a baseline electricity
consumption of roughly 700 watts due to the
refrigerator,  a freezer, a dehumidifier, and all the
other always-on things plugged in to the outlets.
My garage lights need almost 500 watts, so I have
resolved to redouble my efforts not to leave them on
by mistake :-)

Doug

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Oct 26 21:35:23 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:35:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
References: <0JQJ00AIYODU3R60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><927152.50222.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<01a901c81845$8f05ef40$6601a8c0@proteus457>
Message-ID: <003801c8184a$6876c5c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

We had one in our old house, probably installed in about 1970 as a rewiring 
job (by an electrician who had every outlet except one in the whole house 
polarized backwards....).

I replaced 4 or 5 of those expensive little breakers because they went bad, 
and swore I'd never have another of those Pushmatic damn panels.

Our 100 amp single-phase ITE panel had a main breaker - also a regular 
Pushmatic of course.  But it's not necessary to shut off the main just to 
change a breaker - the screws are captive in the breaker so you have no 
reason to touch them.  Hold the breaker by the body to put it in place and 
use a regular insulated handle screwdriver to run the screws in.

I don't remember ever replacing any other type of breaker in a home panel 
because it failed.  Maybe once or twice in industrial plants, but I really 
don't recall.

Karl



> Snip
>>
>> The only problem is that all the 220-volt breakers
>> would have to be replaced hot, and be unscrewed and
>> screwed to the hot bus bars instead of simply being
>> plugged in.  And with no master disconnect or
>> overcurrent protection, I would be afraid to try that
>> myself!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Oct 26 21:41:16 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <003801c8184a$6876c5c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <618027.1198.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the tip!  I had been looking at those
screws, trying to figure out if they were captive or
not.  I didn't want to find out the hard way, by
having one slip out and vaporizing in front of my
face...

Doug

 
--- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
  But it's not necessary to shut
> off the main just to 
> change a breaker - the screws are captive in the
> breaker so you have no 
> reason to touch them.  Hold the breaker by the body
> to put it in place and 
> use a regular insulated handle screwdriver to run
> the screws in.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Oct 26 22:05:47 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 23:05:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
References: <618027.1198.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601c8184e$a81763c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Ummmm, OK, but remember I can't guarantee that the screws are captive in the 
breakers in your panel, just that all the ones I used years ago were.  Nor 
that the breaker won't fall apart in your hand.  I'm REALLY not a fan of 
that product.

I'm not an electrician and I don't play one on TV - I've never even stayed 
at a Holiday Inn Express.  I've just had to do lots of electrical work.

Karl




> Thanks for the tip!  I had been looking at those
> screws, trying to figure out if they were captive or
> not.  I didn't want to find out the hard way, by
> having one slip out and vaporizing in front of my
> face...
>
> Doug
>
>
> --- Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
>  But it's not necessary to shut
>> off the main just to
>> change a breaker - the screws are captive in the
>> breaker so you have no
>> reason to touch them.  Hold the breaker by the body
>> to put it in place and
>> use a regular insulated handle screwdriver to run
>> the screws in.

From mwhart47 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 27 04:52:42 2007
From: mwhart47 at yahoo.com (mike hart)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 03:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrical Panel Question
In-Reply-To: <927152.50222.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <480213.22692.qm@web56012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Doug, I've been away from the computer. As far as the
load you're fine, as two of the breakers are really
main breakers for your sub buses, Call your utility
company and see if they will let you pull the meter
yourself. If they say ok, clip the seal, turn all
breakers off and pull the meter. Replace your
breakers, reinstall the meter, turn breakers back on,
and call the utility company to reseal. Wear Safety
Glasses just in case. I normally just pull the meter
and notify the utility after I'm done. Mike
--- Doug Braun <doug at dougbraun.com> wrote:

> I've already web-searched "Pushmatic", and learned
> of
> two schools of thought:  first that the breakers are
> expensive and it is an oddball design you should get
> rid of, and second that it is one of the few panels
> where the breakers are actually screwed into place,
> so
> it should be more reliable.
> 
> I saw some Pushmatic breakers for sale on some
> electrical supply web site.  They were rather
> expensive, but I could buy one and install it myself
> for a lot less money than an average person would
> have
> to pay for an electrician to come and replace a
> cheaper type of breaker.
> 
> The only problem is that all the 220-volt breakers
> would have to be replaced hot, and be unscrewed and
> screwed to the hot bus bars instead of simply being
> plugged in.  And with no master disconnect or
> overcurrent protection, I would be afraid to try
> that
> myself!
> 
> Doug
> 
> --- Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
> 
> > BTW, It's ITE, not ITC.  I'm not saying that just
> to
> > be obnoxious.  I 
> > just figured it might make an internet search more
> > successful.  Also, 
> > from what I understand, the pushmatic breakers are
> > expensive 
> > now.  This apparently leads people to replace the
> > whole panel when 
> > they need a few breakers.  
> _______________________________________________
> mwhart47 at yahoo.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From jibjib at att.net  Sat Oct 27 07:36:54 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 06:36:54 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>
	<690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009401c8189e$7113edd0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

> My garage lights need almost 500 watts, so I have resolved to redouble my
efforts not to leave them on by mistake :-)

My stairs to the second floor and the upstairs hall has a long string of
high hat lights with four switches to control it.  It is NINE lamps at 75
Watts each and the kids left it on ALL THE TIME.  I swapped out all of the
lamps, except the one right over the stairs for CFL's dropping this one
circuit draw from 675 to 195 watts.  I left the one over the stairs
incandescent so that the stairs were lit fully immediately.

Look for savings like these.  

Jack

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Oct 26 09:34:13 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:34:13 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <bd5.1b970f05.3452e079@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20071026153413.VCIN29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> I, too, have found some pretty good items at HF. Sunday I was 
> in HF and found what looked like a too-good-to-be-true dial 
> caliper for $20:
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=5658

Perhaps it wasn't the same model, but the 6" caliper I held at HF didn't
seem any nicer than the $15 ones from Enco:
http://tinyurl.com/2mfuu6
which are frequently on sale for even less.  I've bought several of these
over the years, and always been happy with them.  Did manage to tear up one
of them, but my own fault for letting gunk get into the rack.

The one at HF didn't zero correctly either.  Of course you can turn the
scale to compensate, but you shouldn't have to ... I took it as a sign that
the gear train had slipped somewhere and likely would again.

As mentioned before, HF has NO quality control, so one item may be fine and
the next seemingly identical one junk.  As a long-time Enco customer, I feel
they have more quality control than HF (although maybe not a whole lot
more).

> So for $20 I got good dial calipers. Now I need to get a mic 
> to recheck the feelers...

http://tinyurl.com/358j9t

Had to zero mine, but they seem accurate otherwise.

I'll buy pretty much anything else at HF, but not precision measuring tools.
In fact, I'm going down there tomorrow to pick up a sabre saw, since it
seems a contractor has disappeared with the one I had before.  Sure glad it
wasn't a Makita !

NFI, YMMV, etc.
Randall

From berry at kerch.com  Sat Oct 27 11:31:35 2007
From: berry at kerch.com (Berry Kercheval)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:31:35 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor   Freight!
In-Reply-To: <20071026153413.VCIN29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071026153413.VCIN29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <472375F7.8090603@kerch.com>

Randall wrote:
> Perhaps it wasn't the same model, but the 6" caliper I held at HF didn't
> seem any nicer than the $15 ones from Enco:

Another possibility:  I got my 6" Mitutoyo digital caliper for $20 from 
a pawn shop.  You can find some good stuff at killer prices at pawn 
shops, but it's a bit hit-or-miss what's there at any given time.

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct 27 13:12:29 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:12:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <009401c8189e$7113edd0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
References: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>
	<690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<009401c8189e$7113edd0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <0JQL00MCC40R8VO0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

One of the things I've been looking for is a way to put a timer on 
lights.  Not a schedule type timer, but a "shut off after 15 minutes" 
type of thing.  Philips used to have "IQ" light bulbs with this 
function built in, but they discontinued them a while ago.  They 
would also blink a minute before shutoff for a warning, which was 
nice.  So far I've found devices that screw in between the fixture 
and the bulb that provide this function.  They add length though, so 
if there's not a lot of room you have to use the short bulbs usually 
used for ceiling fans.  They're OK for a closet, but not very 
sensible for a set of fixtures or fixtures with multiple bulbs.  I've 
also found some switches that perform this function.  Most of them 
are electronic things with buttons for different intervals.  I don't 
want that.  I just want to flip the switch on or off like I always do 
without having to figure out which little buttons to push.  I did 
find one switch that's close to what I want, but it is a little 
expensive.  I haven't found a "wire in" version that would provide 
this function without changing the switch.  That might be nice.  Of 
course none of this would be very smart on stairs.  Don't want lights 
going of by themselves there.

http://www.barbecues.com/1/1/15705-intermatic-electronic-automatic-shutoff-timer-ei15mh.html


At 09:36 AM 10/27/2007, Jack Brooks wrote:
> > My garage lights need almost 500 watts, so I have resolved to redouble my
>efforts not to leave them on by mistake :-)

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct 27 13:16:06 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:16:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <472375F7.8090603@kerch.com>
References: <20071026153413.VCIN29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<472375F7.8090603@kerch.com>
Message-ID: <0JQL00J1D487V8Q0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Pawn shops are just about non-existent in NY.  The maximum interest 
allowed by the law just seems to make their business not work 
here.  The few times I've visited pawn shops in other states, I 
haven't found any bargains.  Prices seemed really high.  Maybe I 
haven't stumbled upon the right pawn shops.



>Another possibility:  I got my 6" Mitutoyo digital caliper for $20 from
>a pawn shop.  You can find some good stuff at killer prices at pawn
>shops, but it's a bit hit-or-miss what's there at any given time.

From mlye at risd.edu  Sat Oct 27 13:31:01 2007
From: mlye at risd.edu (Michael Lye)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:31:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <0JQL00MCC40R8VO0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>
	<690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<009401c8189e$7113edd0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<0JQL00MCC40R8VO0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <D7D43C63-A5DD-464F-875E-EC3AA01C8170@risd.edu>

A lot of the "occupancy sensor" type switches have exactly this  
feature with the benefit that they will sense if you're in the space  
and not turn of the lights until some time after you've left. Search  
for that term and you'll find many types that might meet your needs.  
Some have the feature that they require you to manually turn the  
light on but the light will go out automatically and be ready for the  
next time you want to turn it on. Others go on and off automatically.  
Prices vary but residential units aren't too expensive. They just  
replace the usual wall switch with a motion detector switch.

HTH,

Michael


On Oct 27, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Steven Trovato wrote:

> One of the things I've been looking for is a way to put a timer on
> lights.  Not a schedule type timer, but a "shut off after 15 minutes"
> type of thing.  Philips used to have "IQ" light bulbs with this
> function built in, but they discontinued them a while ago.  They
> would also blink a minute before shutoff for a warning, which was
> nice.  So far I've found devices that screw in between the fixture
> and the bulb that provide this function.  They add length though, so
> if there's not a lot of room you have to use the short bulbs usually
> used for ceiling fans.  They're OK for a closet, but not very
> sensible for a set of fixtures or fixtures with multiple bulbs.  I've
> also found some switches that perform this function.  Most of them
> are electronic things with buttons for different intervals.  I don't
> want that.  I just want to flip the switch on or off like I always do
> without having to figure out which little buttons to push.  I did
> find one switch that's close to what I want, but it is a little
> expensive.  I haven't found a "wire in" version that would provide
> this function without changing the switch.  That might be nice.  Of
> course none of this would be very smart on stairs.  Don't want lights
> going of by themselves there.
>
> http://www.barbecues.com/1/1/15705-intermatic-electronic-automatic- 
> shutoff-timer-ei15mh.html
>
>
> At 09:36 AM 10/27/2007, Jack Brooks wrote:
>>> My garage lights need almost 500 watts, so I have resolved to  
>>> redouble my
>> efforts not to leave them on by mistake :-)
> _______________________________________________
> mlye at risd.edu
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 13:40:20 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:40:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <0JQL00MCC40R8VO0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>
	<690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<009401c8189e$7113edd0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<0JQL00MCC40R8VO0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710271240m81c3b28x2f1edf3d312832c8@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/27/07, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
> One of the things I've been looking for is a way to put a timer on
> lights.  Not a schedule type timer, but a "shut off after 15 minutes"
> type of thing.  Philips used to have "IQ" light bulbs with this
> function built in, but they discontinued them a while ago.  They
> would also blink a minute before shutoff for a warning, which was
> nice.  So far I've found devices that screw in between the fixture
> and the bulb that provide this function.  They add length though, so
> if there's not a lot of room you have to use the short bulbs usually
> used for ceiling fans.  They're OK for a closet, but not very
> sensible for a set of fixtures or fixtures with multiple bulbs.  I've
> also found some switches that perform this function.  Most of them
> are electronic things with buttons for different intervals.  I don't
> want that.  I just want to flip the switch on or off like I always do
> without having to figure out which little buttons to push.  I did
> find one switch that's close to what I want, but it is a little
> expensive.  I haven't found a "wire in" version that would provide
> this function without changing the switch.  That might be nice.  Of
> course none of this would be very smart on stairs.  Don't want lights
> going of by themselves there.
>

You can get switches that have a motion detector built in.  That might
make sense for you.  Leviton also make wall switches with timers,
though i don't know if they go that short.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 13:44:16 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:44:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <0JQL00J1D487V8Q0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <20071026153413.VCIN29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
	<472375F7.8090603@kerch.com> <0JQL00J1D487V8Q0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710271244l3affc1ceifdcda6bfe9cf1388@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/27/07, Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:
> Pawn shops are just about non-existent in NY.  The maximum interest
> allowed by the law just seems to make their business not work
> here.  The few times I've visited pawn shops in other states, I
> haven't found any bargains.  Prices seemed really high.  Maybe I
> haven't stumbled upon the right pawn shops.
>

Pawn shops don't actually sell things for the prices they put on items.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct 27 14:38:28 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:38:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <D7D43C63-A5DD-464F-875E-EC3AA01C8170@risd.edu>
References: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>
	<690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<009401c8189e$7113edd0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<0JQL00MCC40R8VO0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<D7D43C63-A5DD-464F-875E-EC3AA01C8170@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <0JQL000NB80UXN20@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Problem with the switch type occupancy sensors is that many of my 
switches don't really point at where the occupant (me) will be.  I 
think there are some ceiling mount types.  Perhaps that would be a possibility.

-Steve

At 03:31 PM 10/27/2007, Michael Lye wrote:
>A lot of the "occupancy sensor" type switches have exactly this
>feature with the benefit that they will sense if you're in the space
>and not turn of the lights until some time after you've left. Search
>for that term and you'll find many types that might meet your needs.
>Some have the feature that they require you to manually turn the
>light on but the light will go out automatically and be ready for the
>next time you want to turn it on. Others go on and off automatically.
>Prices vary but residential units aren't too expensive. They just
>replace the usual wall switch with a motion detector switch.

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct 27 14:39:24 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:39:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <471CCD79.1010605@boicey.com>
	<690454.99026.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0JQL00JQK847V8S0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Can that one interface to a computer?

-Steve

At 11:32 PM 10/26/2007, Doug Braun wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I ended up buying a "TED 1000":
>
>    www.theenergydetective.com

From cak at dimebank.com  Sat Oct 27 14:45:52 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
Message-ID: <200710272045.l9RKjqHj007061@moose.dimebank.com>

> One of the things I've been looking for is a way to put a timer on
> lights.  Not a schedule type timer, but a "shut off after 15 minutes"

How about a simple spring-wound timer? I use those in a bunch
of places, most notably the bathroom fan. They fit where a normal
wallswitch goes.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Oct 27 14:52:04 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <D7D43C63-A5DD-464F-875E-EC3AA01C8170@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <310826.61800.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I tried using a couple of those motion detector
switches with my garage lights, but gave up.  There
were several problems:

1:  Many electronic light switches do not get along
with fluorescent bulbs.  My fixtures started buzzing
and flickering.

3: The ligths have 3-way switches, and it is hard to
find a electronic switch that works in that type of
circuit.

3: It gets real hot in my garage, and in the summer
the motion detector would stop working in the
afternoons, and leave the lights on all the time.

I like the concept all the various home automation
gizmos, but they fact that they have to be retrofitted
into a century-old wiring architecture makes them a
pain to use...

Doug


--- Michael Lye <mlye at risd.edu> wrote:

> A lot of the "occupancy sensor" type switches have
> exactly this  
> feature with the benefit that they will sense if
> you're in the space  
> and not turn of the lights until some time after
> you've left. 

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct 27 14:52:29 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:52:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <200710272045.l9RKjqHj007061@moose.dimebank.com>
References: <200710272045.l9RKjqHj007061@moose.dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <0JQL00IHZ8O7W420@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I use one of them for my bathroom fan too.  Works great.  Problem is 
that cranking a knob to turn on lights isn't going to cut it.  I want 
to retain my original toggle switch style, or very close.  Also, 
Those spring wound things make noise.  Not terrible, especially with 
a bathroom fan running, but I can't imagine listening to that soft 
ticking all over the house.

-Steve



>How about a simple spring-wound timer? I use those in a bunch
>of places, most notably the bathroom fan. They fit where a normal
>wallswitch goes.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sat Oct 27 14:54:33 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <0JQL00JQK847V8S0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <843762.61583.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It has a USB port that drives a common USB-to-serial
interface chip for which drivers are readily
available.

They have not published any interface details, but
they are supposed to soon.  Here is more info:

http://www.mavromatic.com/archives/000640.asp

Doug

 
--- Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:

> Can that one interface to a computer?
> 
> -Steve

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sat Oct 27 14:58:11 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:58:11 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Timer Switches
In-Reply-To: <0JQL00IHZ8O7W420@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <200710272045.l9RKjqHj007061@moose.dimebank.com>
	<0JQL00IHZ8O7W420@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4723A663.1080402@xxiii.com>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> I use one of them for my bathroom fan too.  Works great.  Problem is 
> that cranking a knob to turn on lights isn't going to cut it.  I want 
> to retain my original toggle switch style, or very close.  Also, 

I bought one of those, too ('bout $15 @ Lowes) because the wife would 
leave for work and leave the bath fan running, exhausting all my 
conditioned air and drafting in outside air long after it had done its job.

But I haven't gotten around to installing it.  I was wondering -- I'd 
like to have the timer dial AND a regular toggle side by side in the 
box.  Makes sense I can just wire the two in parallel.  Is there 
anything in the electrical code or elsewhere that makes that prohibited, 
or a Bad Idea?

   -Wayne

From cak at dimebank.com  Sat Oct 27 15:09:13 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:09:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Timer Switches
Message-ID: <200710272109.l9RL9DZx019055@moose.dimebank.com>

> I was wondering -- I'd 
> like to have the timer dial AND a regular toggle side by side in the 
> box.  Makes sense I can just wire the two in parallel. 

You could do that, but I really don't understand why you'd want to.
Get a 6-hour timer and crank it for as long as you want :-)

From strovato at optonline.net  Sat Oct 27 15:11:26 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:11:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Timer Switches
In-Reply-To: <4723A663.1080402@xxiii.com>
References: <200710272045.l9RKjqHj007061@moose.dimebank.com>
	<0JQL00IHZ8O7W420@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4723A663.1080402@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <0JQL00JCR9LJPC20@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

What would be the point?  Wired in parallel, if either one is on, the 
fan is on.  That means you have a fan timer if the timer is 
used.  And you have an always on fan if the other toggle is 
used.  You can buy a spring wind timer with a "stay on forever" 
position.  That would give you the same functionality, right?


>But I haven't gotten around to installing it.  I was wondering -- I'd
>like to have the timer dial AND a regular toggle side by side in the
>box.  Makes sense I can just wire the two in parallel.  Is there
>anything in the electrical code or elsewhere that makes that prohibited,
>or a Bad Idea?
>
>    -Wayne
>_______________________________________________
>strovato at optonline.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Oct 28 06:42:24 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:42:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>

Gang,

I had an interesting thing happen to my plumbing yesterday that I can't
explain.

For starters, I'm on city water and sewage - no well or spetic tank, etc.

No one was home by me.  I turned on the dishwasher and did a small load
of clothes in the washing machine.  If I remember correctly, both of these
had completed before my problem started.

I heard gurggling.  Went into the 2 bathrooms, and the toilets were both
gurggling - almost like the water was boiling.  Water moving, and loud
gurggling.  After say 10 seconds it stopped.  About 15 minutes later I 
tried to flush each toilet, but the water would not empty from the bowl.

Now here is the strange part.  I tried running water in all the sinks and
they all seemed to be draining fine, but the toilets still would not drain.
I tried to plunge both of the toilets quite a bit to no avail.

I'm thinking great.  We've got a wedding to go to, so I know what I'll be
doing tonight.  My wife came home from running an errand, and I told her
that the toilets won't flush.  I didn't realize it, but she then proceeded
to take a shower to get ready for the wedding.  When I went back into our
bathroom and found her in the shower (No guys, I didn't join her, I was
trying to figure out why the toilets didn't flush), I asked her if the water
in the showner was draining for was the shower filling up.  She said no,
the water was draining fine.

Now probably an hour had passed and the water in the toilet bowels was down
to about normal.  So I turned the water back on for the toilets and tried to 
flush them again.  No luck.  So I shut off the water to the toilet again.

We went to the wedding and had a great time.  I guess we were gone for about
5 to 6 hrs.  When we returned, I turned the water to the toilets back on and
tried to flush them again.  Every thing worked fine.  And is working fine
today.

Anyone have any idea what's going on?  If there were a clog in 1 toilet, I'd
understand.  But both toilets not flushing?  That makes me think that I have
a major blockage somewhere between the city sewer and my house.  But if that
were true, why would the washing machine, dishwasher, sinks, and shower all
drain.  They all empty to the same waste line from the house don't they?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.  Do I need to get a rotor rooter
guy out here?  Or just let it go and see if it happens again?  The loud 
gurggling has happened a couple of times before.  Usually when it does,
the toilet bowl are just about emptied of water.  But they will flush.

We've been in this house for about 24 yrs and never had a plumbing problem.

TIA

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Sun Oct 28 06:47:25 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:47:25 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <F5BDBC73-ACB3-439E-AABA-D2D44F2D655B@groupwbench.org>

On Oct 28, 2007, at 9:42 AM, John T. Blair wrote:

> Gang,
>
> I had an interesting thing happen to my plumbing yesterday that I  
> can't
> explain.

Every single time this has happaned to me, it's been tree roots in  
the main sewer line. About 20% of the time, the shower or other low  
lying drain will back up when we flushed the toilet, but rarely gave  
me trouble on its own.

No explanation for why only the toilets.

jim

From mbarre at juno.com  Sun Oct 28 06:51:15 2007
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:51:15 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <20071028.095115.5545.1@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Definitely strange.  Can't imagine the house was plumbed with separate paths
for black & grey water (which would explain a little).  The chance of 2
separate plugs that clear simultaneously doesn't make sense either.  Is there
a common vent?
Matt

-- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:
Gang,

I had an interesting thing happen to my plumbing yesterday that I can't
explain.

For starters, I'm on city water and sewage - no well or spetic tank, etc.

No one was home by me.  I turned on the dishwasher and did a small load
of clothes in the washing machine.  If I remember correctly, both of these
had completed before my problem started.

I heard gurggling.  Went into the 2 bathrooms, and the toilets were both
gurggling - almost like the water was boiling.  Water moving, and loud
gurggling.  After say 10 seconds it stopped.  About 15 minutes later I
tried to flush each toilet, but the water would not empty from the bowl.

Now here is the strange part.  I tried running water in all the sinks and
they all seemed to be draining fine, but the toilets still would not drain.
I tried to plunge both of the toilets quite a bit to no avail.

I'm thinking great.  We've got a wedding to go to, so I know what I'll be
doing tonight.  My wife came home from running an errand, and I told her
that the toilets won't flush.  I didn't realize it, but she then proceeded
to take a shower to get ready for the wedding.  When I went back into our
bathroom and found her in the shower (No guys, I didn't join her, I was
trying to figure out why the toilets didn't flush), I asked her if the water
in the showner was draining for was the shower filling up.  She said no,
the water was draining fine.

Now probably an hour had passed and the water in the toilet bowels was down
to about normal.  So I turned the water back on for the toilets and tried to
flush them again.  No luck.  So I shut off the water to the toilet again.

We went to the wedding and had a great time.  I guess we were gone for about
5 to 6 hrs.  When we returned, I turned the water to the toilets back on and
tried to flush them again.  Every thing worked fine.  And is working fine
today.

Anyone have any idea what's going on?  If there were a clog in 1 toilet, I'd
understand.  But both toilets not flushing?  That makes me think that I have
a major blockage somewhere between the city sewer and my house.  But if that
were true, why would the washing machine, dishwasher, sinks, and shower all
drain.  They all empty to the same waste line from the house don't they?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.  Do I need to get a rotor rooter
guy out here?  Or just let it go and see if it happens again?  The loud
gurggling has happened a couple of times before.  Usually when it does,
the toilet bowl are just about emptied of water.  But they will flush.

We've been in this house for about 24 yrs and never had a plumbing problem.

TIA

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

         48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
    75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                      65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
_______________________________________________
mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Oct 28 07:51:04 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:51:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <0JQM008CMMM8GBM0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I say it's a vent problem.  Whenever you have bubbling/gurgling from 
a toilet, it means that the it isn't venting from where it is 
supposed to.  And toilets are the most likely to not work when 
there's a vent problem, because they send a lot of water down at 
once.  I think it's time for a visit to the roof to see if something 
is blocking a plumbing vent.


-Steven Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Oct 28 08:00:34 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:00:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <20071028.095115.5545.1@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071028100034.00a02b68@pop.east.cox.net>

At 01:51 PM 10/28/2007 GMT, Matt wrote:

>Definitely strange.  Can't imagine the house was plumbed with separate 
>paths for black & grey water (which would explain a little).  The chance 
>of 2 separate plugs that clear simultaneously doesn't make sense either. 
>Is there a common vent?

Matt,

No.  I only see 2 vents.  One near the 2 bathrooms, and another one in the
middle of the house over the kitchen.



John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Oct 28 08:02:17 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:02:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <0JQM008CMMM8GBM0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071028100217.00a01ce8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 10:51 AM 10/28/2007 -0400, Steven Trovato wrote:

>I say it's a vent problem.  Whenever you have bubbling/gurgling from 
>a toilet, it means that the it isn't venting from where it is 
>supposed to.  And toilets are the most likely to not work when 
>there's a vent problem, because they send a lot of water down at 
>once.  I think it's time for a visit to the roof to see if something 
>is blocking a plumbing vent.

Steven,

Thanks.  I guess I'll have to find a long snake and try pushing it down and
see what happens.  

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Oct 28 08:10:04 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:10:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <0JQM008CMMM8GBM0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
	<0JQM008CMMM8GBM0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <4724A64C.50508@xxiii.com>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> I say it's a vent problem.  Whenever you have bubbling/gurgling from 

I'll strongly 2nd what Steven says.

The water in the bowl should be completely unaffected by what's going on 
in the rest of the system.  The gurggling was probably negative pressure 
in the pipes sucking the water out of the bowl (insert bong joke here)

   -Wayne

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Sun Oct 28 09:25:15 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:25:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071028100217.00a01ce8@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net><3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20071028100217.00a01ce8@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <02c201c8197f$1f8aa4e0$6601a8c0@proteus457>

Here's another vote for a vent problem.  That's the place I'd start looking
also.  Do you have any trees over your roof that could be dropping leaves in
the vents?  Any squirrels running around on your roof?  They will sometimes
try to go down a vent, get stuck, and die.

I think you're on the right track with the snake.  Let us know what you
find.

Mike Frerichs


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Blair
> 
> Thanks.  I guess I'll have to find a long snake and try pushing it down
> and
> see what happens.
> 
> John

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Oct 28 09:28:20 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:28:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071028112820.00a01ce8@pop.east.cox.net>

Thanks to all that have replied.  I'm going to go up on the roof
and check out the vent and see if I can find anything in there.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From bill at gingerich.us  Sun Oct 28 16:44:13 2007
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:44:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <001801c819bc$72d64450$8ba5c6d8@shack2>

John,

I had a very similar situation at work a few months ago.  Multiple toilets
bubbling, all other drains working fine.  I figured it was a vent issue.  I
called the plumber, who told me that every time he has seen this problem, it
was a clog in the drain lines somewhere.  He came out, ran his camera down
the main, dislodged something in the main, and the problem went away.  It
wasn't the vent at all.  I was surprised, but hey, I'm just the IT guy.

Bill Gingerich
Newalla, OK
KA0GOG 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
John T. Blair
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 8:42 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question

Gang,

I had an interesting thing happen to my plumbing yesterday that I can't
explain.

For starters, I'm on city water and sewage - no well or spetic tank, etc.

No one was home by me.  I turned on the dishwasher and did a small load
of clothes in the washing machine.  If I remember correctly, both of these
had completed before my problem started.

I heard gurggling.  Went into the 2 bathrooms, and the toilets were both
gurggling - almost like the water was boiling.  Water moving, and loud
gurggling.  After say 10 seconds it stopped.  About 15 minutes later I 
tried to flush each toilet, but the water would not empty from the bowl.

Now here is the strange part.  I tried running water in all the sinks and
they all seemed to be draining fine, but the toilets still would not drain.
I tried to plunge both of the toilets quite a bit to no avail.

I'm thinking great.  We've got a wedding to go to, so I know what I'll be
doing tonight.  My wife came home from running an errand, and I told her
that the toilets won't flush.  I didn't realize it, but she then proceeded
to take a shower to get ready for the wedding.  When I went back into our
bathroom and found her in the shower (No guys, I didn't join her, I was
trying to figure out why the toilets didn't flush), I asked her if the water
in the showner was draining for was the shower filling up.  She said no,
the water was draining fine.

Now probably an hour had passed and the water in the toilet bowels was down
to about normal.  So I turned the water back on for the toilets and tried to

flush them again.  No luck.  So I shut off the water to the toilet again.

We went to the wedding and had a great time.  I guess we were gone for about
5 to 6 hrs.  When we returned, I turned the water to the toilets back on and
tried to flush them again.  Every thing worked fine.  And is working fine
today.

Anyone have any idea what's going on?  If there were a clog in 1 toilet, I'd
understand.  But both toilets not flushing?  That makes me think that I have
a major blockage somewhere between the city sewer and my house.  But if that
were true, why would the washing machine, dishwasher, sinks, and shower all
drain.  They all empty to the same waste line from the house don't they?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.  Do I need to get a rotor rooter
guy out here?  Or just let it go and see if it happens again?  The loud 
gurggling has happened a couple of times before.  Usually when it does,
the toilet bowl are just about emptied of water.  But they will flush.

We've been in this house for about 24 yrs and never had a plumbing problem.

TIA

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!
_______________________________________________
bill at gingerich.us

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Oct 28 17:39:23 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:39:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <001801c819bc$72d64450$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
	<3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071028193923.00a01ce8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 06:44 PM 10/28/2007 -0500, Bill Gingerich wrote:

>I had a very similar situation at work a few months ago.  Multiple toilets
>bubbling, all other drains working fine.  I figured it was a vent issue.  I
>called the plumber, who told me that every time he has seen this problem, it
>was a clog in the drain lines somewhere.  He came out, ran his camera down
>the main, dislodged something in the main, and the problem went away.  It
>wasn't the vent at all.  I was surprised, but hey, I'm just the IT guy.

Bill et al.

Thanks for the input Bill.

Well the follow up, or the Rest of The Story.

After I got the several emails about checking the vent I called a buddy,
as he has a fish tape longer than anything I have.  I told him what we
were going to do.  It shouldn't mess up his fish tape.

While waiting for him to show up, the toilets and everything was working
fine.  About the time he showed up, the toilets quite flushing.  So we
tried to plunge them.  Again to no avail.  BUT, this time water and dirt
started to fill the tub and shower.  So as Bill said, that ment a big
clog.  I was talking with my wife and buddy, we've had a sever drought  
here this year.  So my thought was now that any water leaching from the
waste pipe would have attracted the tree and scrub roots.  So I opted
to call Roto Rooter.  I must say, I was very impressed with their 
communications.  After the initial call, they said a tech, had just finished
a job and was on his way.  About 15 min. later, I got a call back from 
them that he'd gotten tied up and it would be about 1 hr before a tech
was here.  15 min. later I got a 3rd call saying that he was on his way.
15 min. later he was at my front door.  I showed him the toilets and 
bath tub & shower.  He went looking for a cleanout.  Unfortunately, in my
neighbor hood they didn't install any cleanouts, at least not that he
could find.  I told him there was 1 under the house.  He didn't want to
go there, as then the toilets and tubs would drain under the house.  He
dug out his heavy duty auger/snake and went in through the roof vent.
About 160' worth!  He said he hit something a couple of times but after
the 2nd blockage, it went smoothly.  

After 2 hr of him working, he had to call a helper to run the snake as he
had to be on the roof, and $350 lighter, everything is working great.
I can't say it was the best $350 I've ever spent, but I haven't really
had to have a plumber out since I've owned the house, 24 yrs.  I've been
able to handle most of the problems.  So all in all, I guess I made out
pretty well.

I have to say, if you need any plumbing help like this, I highly recommend
Roto Rooter!!!

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From mbarre at juno.com  Sun Oct 28 17:48:16 2007
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:48:16 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping solution
Message-ID: <20071028.204816.22084.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com>

Thanks for the followup John!  I recall my professor 25 years ago stating on
the first day of Waste Water Management & Design class
"Crap flows down hill - That is the sole truth of this class, for the next 6
months we will simply discuss detail."
I am glad RR converted your cash into satisfaction.
MRB

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sun Oct 28 19:29:27 2007
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:29:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumbing vents
Message-ID: <001701c819d3$8758d980$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC>

FWIW: code where I am now says you should have 1/4" screening over the
vents, to keep things out.

Apologies if this (near nothing email) hits the list twice: I forgot what
account I signed onto the list with).

Mark Miller
Sebastopol, CA

From pethier at comcast.net  Sun Oct 28 21:09:20 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 04:09:20 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <102920070409.14968.47255CF0000EDAED00003A7822007636929D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

> I showed him the toilets and 
> bath tub & shower.  He went looking for a cleanout.  Unfortunately, in my
> neighbor hood they didn't install any cleanouts, at least not that he
> could find.  I told him there was 1 under the house.  He didn't want to
> go there, as then the toilets and tubs would drain under the house. 

You don't have basements in your part of the world?

Hereabouts, if they can't find a cleanout, they pull a toilet off the floor.  I have never heard of a sewer cleaner going on a roof to clear a drain.

I suggest you get the sewer line televised.  When there are problems, there is a reason.  A well-designed system in proper condition never needs the services of a sewer cleaner like Roto-Rooter.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From bk13 at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 28 21:15:32 2007
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:15:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] WOW,
 I never thought I'd say this about Harbor  Freight!
In-Reply-To: <OFDEDDB89D.B995BC56-ON8525737F.004C7CC2-8525737F.004C7CC5@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFDEDDB89D.B995BC56-ON8525737F.004C7CC2-8525737F.004C7CC5@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <47255E64.9080005@earthlink.net>

I picked up the jig saw on Friday and cut a mail slot in my fiberglass 
front door this morning.  It is a nice quality saw for the price, better 
than what you expect from HF.  My only complaint is that the blades that 
come with it are soft.  Near the end, the cutting got real slow.  When I 
finished, I noticed the teeth on the wood cutting blade were almost gone 
at in the sections of the blade that cut the fiberglass skins.  The AC 
powered laser guide worked well and was even accurate.

This is also a case where it pays to do your homework with HF.  The 
website lists the 94560 saw for $39.99, but before making the trip to 
HF, I called to verify they had it in stock.  The store price was 
$59.99.  I printed the web page and got it in the store for the web 
price.  They also match the catalog prices if you ask.

Brian

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> So about a week ago, I have a stack of HF gift cards (I use their credit
> card and get them all the time.)  So I decided to pick up some random
> items.  I decide that my 30 old jigsaw needs to retire, maybe I'll get one
> from HF.  Also, I do alot of masonry cutting with my circ saw and it kills
> them.  I figure I'll get one from HF that I can use as a throw away.
>
> So for $80 total, I buy these 2 items, totally expecting to get Chinese
> garbage.  I opened the box yesterday and I couldn't believe it!
>
> The jig saw...
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94560
>
> Is as high quality as anything I've seen in a store.  When I ordered it, I
> figured the orbital cutting and laser guide are gimmicks at best.  But the
> dang thing works great!  Feels secure and not cheap thin plastic.  I would
> have been happy with the purchase at twice what I paid for it.
>
> As for the circ saw, same experience.  It's got snot to spare.  My only
> complaint about this is that the laser guide needs separate batteries.
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95004
>
> Now, granted, I don't know how long these will last, but I would put money
> up to bet they will last as long as anything I could have bought from Home
> Dipstick or Sears for twice the price.  And if they quit in a few uses,
> they weren't that pricy to just buy another one.
>
> I'm guessing that these things are dripping in lead paint and poisonous pet
> food, but that's fine with me.  Kids shouldn't be touching my tools anyway!
>
> So, I found a great store close by and I get a great deal on HF tools?
> What is going to happen now for my karma to reset.  What's that letter over
> there?  Oh crap, it's a deployment notice.  Iraq, I'll see you this summer,
> (Again!)
>
> Moose
>
> "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>      Tori Amos
> _______________________________________________
> bk13 at earthlink.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Oct 28 21:21:13 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:21:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <0JQN00FJ4O3PXR70@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Hmmm.  Televised sewer lines.  Maybe that explains why every time I 
turn on the TV, all that's ever on is sh*t.



>I suggest you get the sewer line televised.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct 29 04:43:58 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 04:43:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <47255E64.9080005@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
  My only complaint is
> that the blades that 
> come with it are soft.  Near the end, the cutting
> got real slow.  When I 
> finished, I noticed the teeth on the wood cutting
> blade were almost gone 
> at in the sections of the blade that cut the
> fiberglass skins. 

If you want a saw that takes good blades, I highly
recommend the Bosch line.  Their special blades are
better-made (and more expensive) than the standard
style of jigsaw blade.

> This is also a case where it pays to do your
> homework with HF.  The 
> website lists the 94560 saw for $39.99, but before
> making the trip to 
> HF, I called to verify they had it in stock.  The
> store price was 
> $59.99.  I printed the web page and got it in the
> store for the web 
> price.  They also match the catalog prices if you
> ask.

I saw something I liked on sale in the twice-weekly HF
flyer that came in the mail, but I did not see the
same price on their Web site. Then I noticed that all
the stock numbers in the flyer were of a different
style than usual.  And the web site listed on the
flyer was "harborfreightusa.com" instead of just
"harborfreight.com".  Apparently the dealer network is
somewhat separate from the online sales, and could
have better or worse prices.

Doug

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Oct 29 05:00:14 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:00:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <006601c81a23$445b97d0$cd12c770$@mele@usermail.com>

With all the wit on this list, no-one else thought that it was a diet
question?

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Oct 29 05:19:50 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:19:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <102920070409.14968.47255CF0000EDAED00003A7822007636929D0A0
	7089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071029071950.00c15d58@pop.east.cox.net>

At 04:09 AM 10/29/2007 +0000, Phil Ethier wrote:

>You don't have basements in your part of the world?

Nope!  I'm in Virginia Beach, VA, the far south eastern portion and 
have both the Atlantic Ocean and the Chesapeake Bay around us.  I
think the highest natural elevations is something like 6 to 10' above
see level.  I know of at least 2 houses in the metro area that do
have basements, but these houses were built on graded land.  They pushed
the land up to make a knoll then built the house, or build the basement
on the ground, then pushed dirt up to the top of the basement and continued
building the house.

So typically diging 1 to 3' down we hit ground water.  I'm definately
a "Flatlander".  I have trouble walking up anykind of grade. :)

>Hereabouts, if they can't find a cleanout, they pull a toilet off the floor.
>I have never heard of a sewer cleaner going on a roof to clear a drain.

A neighbor suggested that approach.  I see the validity to that especially
if you have a 2 or more story house.  But most of the homes in this 
neighborhood, and a I'd almost say most in the metro area are 1 story
ranch houses.  So, the time & expense to pull a toilet seem like more
work than going down through the main vent.  If I were going to try and
rent a powered snake and do it myself, I'd have probably pulled the toilet.

>I suggest you get the sewer line televised.  When there are problems, there 
>is a reason.  A well-designed system in proper condition never needs the 
>services of a sewer cleaner like Roto-Rooter.

We have quite a few trees and bushes around the sewer pipe.  So my guess
is that their roots got into the drain line.  I know this is a common
occurrance, as several friends have had this problem.  As I said in a 
previous email, we've had a bad drought, so I think all the trees/bushes
were looking for any water they could find and went into the sewer lines.

Roto Rooter sold me some stuff called "Root Destroyer".  It is some large
crystals, that you are supposed to put a few into each toilet, once a 
month, and flush the toilet.  They disolve and attact the roots.  So you
don't have this problem, hopefully. :)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Oct 29 05:31:00 2007
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:31:00 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <006601c81a23$445b97d0$cd12c770$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071028084224.00ac3120@pop.east.cox.net>
	<006601c81a23$445b97d0$cd12c770$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <3ACCD112-AE14-40A1-9A75-97FA41513D5C@groupwbench.org>

On Oct 29, 2007, at 8:00 AM, Paul Mele wrote:

> With all the wit on this list, no-one else thought that it was a diet
> question?

I figured he was readying his place for Thanksgiving...

jim

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct 29 07:12:35 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 06:12:35 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071029071950.00c15d58@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20071029131235.YMCQ29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> So, the 
> time & expense to pull a toilet seem like more work than 
> going down through the main vent.

Until of course, someone falls off (or worse, through) the roof.  Most
toilets come up surprisingly easy; just turn off the water, empty the tank,
disconnect the water line, and break off two bolts.  You have to replace the
bolts & wax ring every time, but they are cheap.

> We have quite a few trees and bushes around the sewer pipe.  
> So my guess is that their roots got into the drain line.

I also live in a one-story ranch on a slab (although my drains have
cleanouts).  Thought tree roots were my problem too, especially since they
have damaged a wall & the front porch.  But the camera showed the main line
to be clean as a whistle, no sign of roots at all.  However, there are some
joints with a bit too much spacing, might be leaking, so the plumber tried
to convince me to replace the line from the house to the street, for 'only'
$10,000.

Perhaps I'm being foolish, but since it's only been a problem once in over
15 years, I figure I'll wait until it happens again.  Or at least until the
grass turns greener over the sewer line <G>

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Oct 29 06:28:17 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:28:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <20071029131235.YMCQ29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071029071950.00c15d58@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071029082817.00c15d58@pop.east.cox.net>

At 06:12 AM 10/29/2007 -0800, Randall wrote:

>I also live in a one-story ranch on a slab (although my drains have
>cleanouts).  Thought tree roots were my problem too, especially since they
>have damaged a wall & the front porch....

>However, there are some joints with a bit too much spacing, might be
leaking, 
>so the plumber tried to convince me to replace the line from the house to the
>street, for 'only' $10,000.
>
>Perhaps I'm being foolish, but since it's only been a problem once in over
>15 years, I figure I'll wait until it happens again.  Or at least until the
>grass turns greener over the sewer line <G>

Randall,

I have to agree with you.  Even at $500 per year to clean the drain out,
that's over 20 yrs to break even.  And a lot longer at once every 15 yrs. :)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Oct 29 07:25:28 2007
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:25:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
References: <184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c81a37$8e55cbd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>

Note that this is all hearsay - I have not tried to discover proof of anything that follows.

The rumor that I have heard is that the local stores are a separate company entity owned by the two sons of the owner of Harbor 
Freight. This "total separation", and the disparate part numbers, "proves" that the mail order company does not have a local 
presence in your state, and therefore the mail order company does not have to collect sales taxes in your state.

As far as honoring the prices, the local stores had usually done so under the guise of "honoring competitors ad prices". I've only 
had one occasion - a long time ago - where they said they would not honor it because "it was a different product number and 
therefore a different product". Of course only the digits after the hyphen were different, so it really was the same item, but it is 
their game and their rules.

Feel free to set me straight,
Arvid


> I saw something I liked on sale in the twice-weekly HF
> flyer that came in the mail, but I did not see the
> same price on their Web site. Then I noticed that all
> the stock numbers in the flyer were of a different
> style than usual.  And the web site listed on the
> flyer was "harborfreightusa.com" instead of just
> "harborfreight.com".  Apparently the dealer network is
> somewhat separate from the online sales, and could
> have better or worse prices.
>
> Doug

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct 29 08:46:16 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:46:16 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <001501c81a37$8e55cbd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <20071029144616.GLNN29317.mta9.adelphia.net@randall>

> > And the web site listed on the flyer was 
> > "harborfreightusa.com" instead of just "harborfreight.com".   

Well, I've learned something.  Never realized before that there are two
separate, somewhat different web sites.

> "proves" that the mail order company does not 
> have a local presence in your state, and therefore the mail 
> order company does not have to collect sales taxes in your state.

I don't know, but it seems improbable to me.  Especially since both sites
have a link to locate a "retail store near you", and they both seem to come
up with the same list of stores.  And both sites also list the same address
for corporate headquarters (as do the retail stores).  If they were
pretending to be different companies, you'd think they would at least get
different mailing addresses.

> Of course 
> only the digits after the hyphen were different,

JCW does that (or at least did), but AFAIK HF stopped doing it long ago.
The JCW way was that the digits after the hyphen literally determined how
much you paid for the product, while only the part before the hyphen
actually identified different products.

Randall

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Oct 29 08:07:34 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:07:34 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <102920071507.2311.4725F736000B985F0000090722007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> At 04:09 AM 10/29/2007 +0000, Phil Ethier wrote:
> 
> >You don't have basements in your part of the world?
> 
> Nope!  I'm in Virginia Beach, VA, 

I understand.  Here most houses have basements.  Those that don't are built on a concrete slab.  A house built above an open space would have frozen water pipes.

> >I suggest you get the sewer line televised.  When there are problems, there 
> >is a reason.  A well-designed system in proper condition never needs the 
> >services of a sewer cleaner like Roto-Rooter.
> 
> We have quite a few trees and bushes around the sewer pipe.  So my guess
> is that their roots got into the drain line. 

Typically the method of a sewer-system demise.  Sewer services used to be made of either clay or, for the well-heeled, cast iron.  The pipes were made with bells and fitted together.  The sealing material never lasted, the pipes leaked and the trees headed for a free lunch.  The roots would either clog the pipe or break the pipe or both.  Rainwater would infiltrate, taking soil with it.  In some cases, rats would find the holes this caused.  You can determine if a rat hole connects to a failed sewer with a smoke bomb and a leaf blower.  The smoke will appear from the house vent or in a manhole.  Sometimes the cavity formed by the bad sewer does not appear on the surface.  We had a case up on Rice Street in which a guy parked his car in the front yard and it went right down to the door handles.  He did not know his sewer had failed; his house drains all still worked.  The clay typically used here was only 2 feet long, so there are many joints and they all fail.

Nowadays, contractors use Schedule 40 PVC pipe.  It comes in 10- and 20-foot sticks and therefore requires few joints.  The joints are made with the same plastic cement used by plumbers on inside drain work.  They don't leak and the trees don't know they are there.  In my 20 years in Public Works, I have seen hundreds of failures of clay services and and can not remember any failures of PVC services. 

If you have your service televised and it has some bad spots, I'd recommend you have it all replaced with Schedule 40 PVC.  It's probably cheaper in your area because your sewer services are probably much shallower than ours.  We require that the service be 8 feet deep at the property line.  Schedule 40 PVC is much smoother and slicker than clay, so  we allow 4-inch house services.  Often the contractor can slide this insde the old 6-inch clay.  

Replace that old stuff now and your great-grandchildren won't need RotoRooter.  :-)

Call up your local sewer utility and ask to see your original permit.  We have them back to about 1880, but some cities don't keep records this well.  Also ask if they have a list of outfits who TV sewer services, and if they have any special loan programs.  Here in Saint Paul, we will loan you the money for ten years, regardless of your income.  There are other City departments here that will make no-interest loans based on income.

When you are REALLY bored, ask me about sandrock sewers.  We have some of them here and experienced civil engineers from elsewhere go "huh?" when they hear me talk about sewers 150 feet deep.  :-)

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Oct 29 08:28:29 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:28:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <001501c81a37$8e55cbd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>
References: <184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<001501c81a37$8e55cbd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710291125520.30938@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

That all jives to me... Prices are very frequently different in the retail 
stores to online.  Sometimes better, but more often worse.  But they've 
always honored the online prices when I've asked.  It certainly pays to 
check out bigger ticket items.

I think there are also things available only online... At least once I 
recall asking at the retail store if I could buy something through them 
rather than the online store, and was told that I'd have to order it 
online as it was an item they didn't sell.

Don't know if that was a policy, someone who didn't want the hassle, or 
whatever.

Mark

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007, Arvid Jedlicka wrote:
> Note that this is all hearsay - I have not tried to discover proof of anything that follows.
>
> The rumor that I have heard is that the local stores are a separate company entity owned by the two sons of the owner of Harbor
> Freight. This "total separation", and the disparate part numbers, "proves" that the mail order company does not have a local
> presence in your state, and therefore the mail order company does not have to collect sales taxes in your state.
>
> As far as honoring the prices, the local stores had usually done so under the guise of "honoring competitors ad prices". I've only
> had one occasion - a long time ago - where they said they would not honor it because "it was a different product number and
> therefore a different product". Of course only the digits after the hyphen were different, so it really was the same item, but it is
> their game and their rules.
>
> Feel free to set me straight,
> Arvid
>
>
>> I saw something I liked on sale in the twice-weekly HF
>> flyer that came in the mail, but I did not see the
>> same price on their Web site. Then I noticed that all
>> the stock numbers in the flyer were of a different
>> style than usual.  And the web site listed on the
>> flyer was "harborfreightusa.com" instead of just
>> "harborfreight.com".  Apparently the dealer network is
>> somewhat separate from the online sales, and could
>> have better or worse prices.
>>
>> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> mark at sccaprepared.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Oct 29 08:30:06 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:30:06 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <102920071530.8482.4725FC7E00016D500000212222007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> I also live in a one-story ranch on a slab (although my drains have
> cleanouts).  Thought tree roots were my problem too, especially since they
> have damaged a wall & the front porch.  But the camera showed the main line
> to be clean as a whistle, no sign of roots at all.  However, there are some
> joints with a bit too much spacing, might be leaking, so the plumber tried
> to convince me to replace the line from the house to the street, for 'only'
> $10,000.

I don't know your area, and I have not seen your property layout, but that sounds really high to me.  Total replacements are generally half of that.  $10,000 replacement jobs are rare here, and usually involve some weird circumstance.

NEVER replace a sewer service without getting bids.  Roto Rooter loves to fast-track customers into a replacement before the customer wakes up and calls us for a list of licensed contractors.  We always recommend that the customer calls every contractor on the list.  Each contractor calls us for faxed copies of our records, and calls Streets for info to estimate street restoration charges, then makes a bid.

> Perhaps I'm being foolish, but since it's only been a problem once in over
> 15 years, I figure I'll wait until it happens again.  Or at least until the
> grass turns greener over the sewer line <G>

After a TV job, I'd agree.  Here, we advise customers to always get a recording from the TV guy.  They can bring them in here to the office and we will look at them and advise.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct 29 08:30:37 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:30:37 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <102920071507.2311.4725F736000B985F0000090722007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <102920071507.2311.4725F736000B985F0000090722007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710290830n30e36ee1u7775c21b96eaced9@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/07, pethier at comcast.net <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:

> When you are REALLY bored, ask me about sandrock sewers.  We have some of them here and experienced civil engineers from elsewhere go "huh?" when they hear me talk about sewers 150 feet deep.  :-)
>

Not bored, but interested.  Sewers are cool.  I'm perfectly happy to
let others keep them working though.

The college I went to had a large undeveloped piece of scrubby
woodlands behind it.  It had large sewer pipes leading from the area
of town uphill from it, to the water plant, on the river.  The pipes
had were laid straight, with a bit of slope, and appeared out of the
sides of hills rather at random.

Helpful hint:  Don't try to walk across an 8" pipe while drunk.  Go for the 12"
 or 16" ones.  It's farther to that stream than you think.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Oct 29 08:34:01 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:34:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710291125520.30938@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<001501c81a37$8e55cbd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710291125520.30938@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <ea2385360710290834h46fbe0b9l855379e22ab27b56@mail.gmail.com>

*A prior thread seemed to hold that DeWalt made the best jigsaw and recip
blades . . Does that still hold true for those who have experimented?*

From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 29 09:32:03 2007
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:32:03 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360710290834h46fbe0b9l855379e22ab27b56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<001501c81a37$8e55cbd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710291125520.30938@mephisto.banklogic.net> 
	<ea2385360710290834h46fbe0b9l855379e22ab27b56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W280D5771A6757E30D32D2B9A910@phx.gbl>

I think the Bosch jigsaws are generally regarded as the best, not sure about
blades.  I've put my Bosch jigsaw through anough abuse - and I think it was
worth every penny.

PJ> *A prior thread seemed to hold that DeWalt made the best jigsaw and recip>
blades . . Does that still hold true for those who have experimented?*>
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble
challenge with star power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct 29 11:09:52 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:09:52 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <102920071530.8482.4725FC7E00016D500000212222007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071029170952.KNDG19534.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> I don't know your area, and I have not seen your property 
> layout, but that sounds really high to me.

Yeah, me too.  Especially since it was less than a 20' run, and the only
obstacle is the concrete driveway.  But they did offer a 10% discount if I
would commit within 48 hours <G>  And after some dickering, another 10% if I
did the driveway demolition myself (the original $10k did not include
replacing the driveway).

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct 29 10:39:37 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <001501c81a37$8e55cbd0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>
Message-ID: <411236.95914.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sounds 100% plausible to me!

Doug

--- Arvid Jedlicka <arvidj at visi.com> wrote:
 This "total separation", and the disparate
> part numbers, "proves" that the mail order company
> does not have a local 
> presence in your state, and therefore the mail order
> company does not have to collect sales taxes in your
> state.

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Oct 29 11:24:30 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:24:30 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <102920071824.12332.4726255E0002DF540000302C22070016419D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> > I don't know your area, and I have not seen your property 
> > layout, but that sounds really high to me.
> 
> Yeah, me too.  Especially since it was less than a 20' run, and the only
> obstacle is the concrete driveway.  But they did offer a 10% discount if I
> would commit within 48 hours <G>  And after some dickering, another 10% if I
> did the driveway demolition myself (the original $10k did not include
> replacing the driveway).\

Without the driveway work, it should have come in around $2000.  If you decide to consider it, get bids from everybody with a license.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From pethier at comcast.net  Mon Oct 29 11:48:24 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:48:24 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
Message-ID: <102920071848.27151.47262AF80004172F00006A0F22007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> Not bored, but interested.  Sewers are cool.  I'm perfectly happy to
> let others keep them working though.

So am I.  That's why I work in an office.

Here is something I wrote a few years ago for a fellow bureaucrat at the City of Pismo Beach, California:

====================
Sandrock, or sandstone, runs generally below a layer of limestone.  This 
stuff is soft enough that it can be penetrated by hydro-tunneling, but 
most of the tunnels hereabouts were done by hand-excavating a century ago 
when labor was cheap.  Since this stuff is soft, the tunnels tend to be 
Gothic-arch in shape.  Some areas are reinforced with brick or 
concrete.  Some areas have a half-pipe in the invert to prevent 
erosion.  In neighborhoods where you find sandrock sewers, the limestone is 
often only covered by a couple of feet of dirt, making open-cut sewer 
construction impractical in the old days.  In fact, there are houses in 
some areas here which have as a basement floor actual original rock.

The method a private property owner uses to hook up to a sandrock sewer:

The old way is to hire a contractor to go down in the tunnel and dig a 
lateral tunnel called a "drift" from the main tunnel to a spot under the 
property.  Then a well-drilling rig is used to drill a hole through the 
limestone,if any, and through the sandrock into the top of the 
drift.  Sewer pipe is installed in the hole at least far enough to get into 
the rock.  In the drift, an angled splash block is installed to direct 
flow towards the tunnel.  Obviously, this a pretty shaky deal over the long 
haul.  Loose sandrock pieces can block the drillhole.  I have actually 
heard stories of sewer-cleaners using firearms to break such pieces.

The currently-approved way is better.  If an old drift does not exist, a 
new drift must be dug.  A larger drillhole is required.  A PVC pipe is 
inserted the full height of the drillhole and a sweep elbow installed at 
the bottom.  PVC extends on the invert of the drift all the way to the main 
tunnel.  Then the pipe in the invert is covered with concrete.  The 
vertical pipe in the drillhole is grouted in with concrete.  The final 
touch is to block up the drift at the tunnel.  Since Minnesota does not
have discernable earthquakes, this setup should last for centuries.

Needless to say, this procedure is very expensive, especially since all 
material from the drift-digging must be carted to the nearest dropshaft, 
hoisted up the dropshaft, and removed in a truck.  It behooves prospective 
buyers of lots to check sewer availability before they buy the lot, in case 
sandrock is the only available sewer type.  The sudden shock of a $40,000 
sewer bid can't be good for the heart.

I have mentioned that Saint Paul is a river-bluff town.  Our city datum for 
elevations is USGS sea level minus 694.10 feet.  This is based on some 
point at some steamboat landing circa 1850.  I'm in an office downtown in a 
building on top of a bluff.  The city datum at the front door is about 95 
feet.  A nearby storm sewer is essentially down to river level, so the 
dropshafts here are about 90 feet deep.  The 150-foot-deep tunnels are out 
in the Midway district, carrying storm water to outfalls in the Mississippi 
on the west edge of town.

There are also some deep sanitary-interceptor tunnels.  The metro-wide 
treatment plant is located in Saint Paul, so sanitary flows are conveyed by 
a combination of tunnels and conventional pipes from other cities such as 
Minneapolis through Saint Paul to the plant.
============



--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From mikel at ichips.intel.com  Mon Oct 29 12:25:27 2007
From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:25:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fun distraction
Message-ID: <200710291925.l9TJPR8b014467@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>

Something I'm sure folks on this list will like....

http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/quizzes/MechanicalAptitude.php

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Oct 29 12:37:41 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:37:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
In-Reply-To: <102920071848.27151.47262AF80004172F00006A0F22007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <871176.34380.qm@web614.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the interesting information about the
geology of St. Paul!  I've heard  there are a lot of
interesting old tunnels in St. Paul.

Doug

--- pethier at comcast.net wrote:

> 
> I have mentioned that Saint Paul is a river-bluff
> town.  Our city datum for 
> elevations is USGS sea level minus 694.10 feet. 
> This is based on some 
> point at some steamboat landing circa 1850.  I'm in
> an office downtown in a 
> building on top of a bluff.  The city datum at the
> front door is about 95 
> feet.  A nearby storm sewer is essentially down to
> river level, so the 
> dropshafts here are about 90 feet deep.  The
> 150-foot-deep tunnels are out 
> in the Midway district, carrying storm water to
> outfalls in the Mississippi 
> on the west edge of town.
> 
> There are also some deep sanitary-interceptor
> tunnels.  The metro-wide 
> treatment plant is located in Saint Paul, so
> sanitary flows are conveyed by 
> a combination of tunnels and conventional pipes from
> other cities such as 
> Minneapolis through Saint Paul to the plant.
> ============

From smarc at smarc.net  Mon Oct 29 13:17:16 2007
From: smarc at smarc.net (Marc)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:17:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Update: Remote electric meter readout
In-Reply-To: <843762.61583.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <843762.61583.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47263FCC.4050308@smarc.net>

   That  would be cool to be able to interface with my MRTG graphs!  Have
   you installed the monitor yet?  What do you think of it?
Marc

   Doug Braun wrote:

It has a USB port that drives a common USB-to-serial
interface chip for which drivers are readily
available.

They have not published any interface details, but
they are supposed to soon.  Here is more info:

http://www.mavromatic.com/archives/000640.asp

Doug

--- Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net> wrote:

Can that one interface to a computer?

-Steve

_______________________________________________
smarc at smarc.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Oct 29 10:00:03 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:00:03 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710291125520.30938@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20071029160003.FRKF19534.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> I think there are also things available only online... 

Indeed the flyers I get sometimes have ads marked "Internet only".

The individual stores also seem to pick and choose to some extent which
items they carry.  I've had the little store in Lomita tell me they didn't
stock something that I knew was on the shelf at the larger store in
Lakewood.

Randall

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Oct 29 15:40:13 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:40:13 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <102920071507.2311.4725F736000B985F0000090722007637049D0A07
	089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071029174013.00fa2600@pop.east.cox.net>

At 03:07 PM 10/29/2007 +0000, pethier at comcast.net wrote:

>When you are REALLY bored, ask me about sandrock sewers.  We have some of 
>them here and experienced civil engineers from elsewhere go "huh?" when 
>they hear me talk about sewers 150 feet deep.  :-)

I think here these are called French wells or dry wells.  To get the water
down through our clay layer.

John




John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Oct 29 19:02:30 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:02:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <47255E64.9080005@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071029190122.034cf828@incoming.verizon.net>

You always have to check ALL the listed prices, both at the store, in their 
flyers, catalogs and on the web.  They may have three or four prices on the 
same thing depending on where it is listed, but one thing I have found is 
that virtually everything they sell is on sale sooner or later.

Dave C

At 04:43 AM  10/29/2007  -0700, Doug Braun wrote:
>Apparently the dealer network is
>somewhat separate from the online sales, and could
>have better or worse prices.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Oct 29 20:02:33 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:02:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071029190122.034cf828@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <47255E64.9080005@earthlink.net>
	<184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<5.0.0.25.2.20071029190122.034cf828@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710292002t283b94cfjf73ffc9ee9685ff3@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/07, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> You always have to check ALL the listed prices, both at the store, in their
> flyers, catalogs and on the web.  They may have three or four prices on the
> same thing depending on where it is listed, but one thing I have found is
> that virtually everything they sell is on sale sooner or later.

Many things seem to have three prices.: the "regular" one, the normal
sale price, and the more deeply discounted sale price.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Oct 29 20:37:01 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:37:01 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40710292002t283b94cfjf73ffc9ee9685ff3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47255E64.9080005@earthlink.net>
	<184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<5.0.0.25.2.20071029190122.034cf828@incoming.verizon.net>
	<2400a5d40710292002t283b94cfjf73ffc9ee9685ff3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360710292037o266cdc77qbbf26eebb740d114@mail.gmail.com>

*A couple of buddies and I took advantage of the wild pricing and bought a
bunch of the 6 inch digital calipers from Harbor Freight for $7.95 (plastic)
and $14.95 (stainless).  Now we have, with a little adapting,  "Digital Read
Out" abilities on our lathes, drill presses and milling machines!   *

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Mon Oct 29 22:00:27 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:00:27 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] HF: Jigsaw blades, etc.
In-Reply-To: <ea2385360710292037o266cdc77qbbf26eebb740d114@mail.gmail.co
  m>
References: <2400a5d40710292002t283b94cfjf73ffc9ee9685ff3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47255E64.9080005@earthlink.net>
	<184950.71756.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<5.0.0.25.2.20071029190122.034cf828@incoming.verizon.net>
	<2400a5d40710292002t283b94cfjf73ffc9ee9685ff3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071029220011.03370eb0@incoming.verizon.net>

Pictures?


At 10:37 PM  10/29/2007  -0500, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote:
>A couple of buddies and I took advantage of the wild pricing and bought a 
>bunch of the 6 inch digital calipers from Harbor Freight for $7.95 
>(plastic) and $14.95 (stainless).  Now we have, with a little 
>adapting,  "Digital Read Out" abilities on our lathes, drill presses and 
>milling machines!

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Oct 30 01:16:27 2007
From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:16:27 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
In-Reply-To: <102920071848.27151.47262AF80004172F00006A0F22007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <102920071848.27151.47262AF80004172F00006A0F22007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4726E85B.6050005@landform.co.uk>

pethier at comcast.net wrote:
>
> I have mentioned that Saint Paul is a river-bluff town.  Our city datum for 
> elevations is USGS sea level minus 694.10 feet.  This is based on some 
> point at some steamboat landing circa 1850.  
Hi Phil,

Interesting stuff, labour must have been cheap in those days. A lot of 
Cornish tin miners emigrated to the US in the 1800s. Saint Paul would 
have been a natural home for them. One small point, could that datum be 
plus 694.10 feet?

Regards.

Nick Brearley

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Oct 30 06:49:42 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:49:42 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
Message-ID: <103020071349.3820.472736760005D07900000EEC22070229339D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Nick Brearley <nick at landform.co.uk>
> pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > I have mentioned that Saint Paul is a river-bluff town.  Our city datum for 
> > elevations is USGS sea level minus 694.10 feet.  This is based on some 
> > point at some steamboat landing circa 1850.  
> Hi Phil,
> 
> Interesting stuff, labour must have been cheap in those days. 

Yes, it was.  If we were starting fresh today, with expensive labor and advanced machinery, those sewers would probably be conventional.

> A lot of 
> Cornish tin miners emigrated to the US in the 1800s. Saint Paul would 
> have been a natural home for them. 

I don't know that there were a lot of workers with actual mining experience.  Just whomever was hungry, strong, and fearless.

Actually, many of the Cornish miners went to the U.P. of Michigan and to northern Minnesota.  Their influence is felt here.  You can buy pasties in all the grocery stores up there.  You can find them in the Twin Cities if you look.  We get pasties twice a year from a church in Maplewood.  They make them up in the church basement.

>One small point, could that datum be 
> plus 694.10 feet?

It's all in how you look at it.  We say "minus" because the USGS number on a plan is larger than the City Datum number.

USGS sea level reading - 694.10  =  Saint Paul City Datum

If the invert of a manhole is 810 feet above sea level, it will be shown on our maps as 115.90.

Conversely, the sanitary manhole at Laurel and Griggs is marked 221.0.  The invert of that manhole is 915.1 feet above sea level (roughly 221 feet above the Mississippi River).

If a surveyor shoots a job and marks the elevations in sea-level (he must be from out of town), you must subtract 694.10 from each reading to determine relationships to sewer maps.  The normal procedure if you are a private surveyor is to phone our Survey Division for benchmarks.  The tech here will give you the city-datum elevations for the top nuts of at least two fire hydrants near your job.  You go to the site and shoot the hydrants.  It they all agree with each other according to the benchmarks, you can shoot the site in confidence.  If they do not agree, call our Survey Division because one of the hydrants has been hit by a car and replaced by Water Services and not yet re-shot by Survey.  

Sometimes a surveyor will not call for benchmarks and just pick a random place on the site and call it "100.00".   I hate that.  When you design a house, you should know the elevation of available sewer.  It is expensive and annoying to make sludge flow uphill.  The builder ought to spec the job for the surveyor to supply elevations tied to a standard.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com  Tue Oct 30 06:50:46 2007
From: bwarrick at conveyorengineering.com (Brian Warrick)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:50:46 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] getting tile and mortar off a slab?
In-Reply-To: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <101620072157.17516.471533C200046E4A0000446C220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <572F1EF8DF6CD94F8F2101A697927684857F3B@ceifs2006.CEIDOMAIN.local>

>this stuff is on there like nothing I've ever seen, and it's only
slightly thinner and a satillo tile.  I'm getting up >>the tile--slowly,
but a lot of the mortar is proving permanent.  won't yield to a hammer,
and I'm afraid too much more pounding is just going to gouge the slab.
chisels and scrapers might as well be made of plastic.

>any ideas on how to get back to a smooth slab?  muriatic acid?  I
thought of renting a grinder if I could, but some of >the bathrooms are
probably too small for it to do much good in there.

Scott,

This is probably too late to be of any good, but I saw this machine in a
trade magazine the other day.  Maybe there is someplace a guy can rent
one?

http://www.blastrac.com/en-us/pc-119-27-bs-50.aspx

This place seems to have all sorts of neat equipment for doing the job
you are describing.

Good luck.

Brian

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Oct 30 07:11:21 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:11:21 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <103020071411.5329.47273B890005EEBD000014D122070229339D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net>
> At 03:07 PM 10/29/2007 +0000, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> 
> >When you are REALLY bored, ask me about sandrock sewers.  We have some of 
> >them here and experienced civil engineers from elsewhere go "huh?" when 
> >they hear me talk about sewers 150 feet deep.  :-)
> 
> I think here these are called French wells or dry wells.  To get the water
> down through our clay layer.
> 
> John

Not the same thing.  A "French Drain" or a "Drywell" is a hole into which water goes to percolate into the soil.  

A sandrock sewer is an actual sewer.  Sanitary sandrocks here carry effluent which eventually winds up at the Pig's Eye sewage treatment plant.  Storm sandrocks carry rainwater which ends up in the Mississippi River.  We used to have combined sewers here, but a Federal Court Order caused us to separate the entire system a few decades ago.  



--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From nick at landform.co.uk  Tue Oct 30 07:57:36 2007
From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:57:36 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
In-Reply-To: <103020071349.3820.472736760005D07900000EEC22070229339D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <103020071349.3820.472736760005D07900000EEC22070229339D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47274660.5070606@landform.co.uk>

pethier at comcast.net wrote:
>> One small point, could that datum be 
>> plus 694.10 feet?
>>     
>
> It's all in how you look at it.  We say "minus" because the USGS number on a plan is larger than the City Datum number.
>
> USGS sea level reading - 694.10  =  Saint Paul City Datum
>
>   
Right... I see now. Any UK surveyor working in the US is going to need a 
speedy re-education course, and vice versa. This side of the pond datums 
(data??) are positive numbers above sea level (at Newlyn in Cornwall 
coincidentally).

snip

> Sometimes a surveyor will not call for benchmarks and just pick a random place on the site and call it "100.00".   I hate that.  When you design a house, you should know the elevation of available sewer.  It is expensive and annoying to make sludge flow uphill.  The builder ought to spec the job for the surveyor to supply elevations tied to a standard.
>
>   
As a contractor I find that method of levelling (temporary bench mark) 
easier to work with. Less numbers to enter in the level book. Granted, 
eventually the numbers have to be adjusted related to an Ordnance 
Benchmark for final record. Still, the coming of total stations for 
survey work makes these considerations irrelevant.

Nick Brearley

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Oct 30 08:59:13 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:59:13 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
In-Reply-To: <103020071349.3820.472736760005D07900000EEC22070229339D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071030145913.BOIO19534.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> USGS sea level reading - 694.10  =  Saint Paul City Datum

Phil, are you sure that's Mean Sea Level ?  Sounds to me more like an
ellipsoidal height (meaning the theoretical model of the entire earth's
surface that datums like WGS-84 are based on).  There are of course, some
places that are below MSL, but even Death Valley is only 282 feet below.

> Sometimes a surveyor will not call for benchmarks and just pick a random
> place on the site and call it "100.00".

Which of course is the same basic process that produced your "Saint Paul
City" datum.
<G>

Randall

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Oct 30 08:15:23 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:15:23 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
Message-ID: <103020071515.12614.47274A8B000E79DC0000314622028887449D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Nick Brearley <nick at landform.co.uk>
> pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> >> One small point, could that datum be 
> >> plus 694.10 feet?
> >>     
> >
> > It's all in how you look at it.  We say "minus" because the USGS number on a 
> plan is larger than the City Datum number.
> >
> > USGS sea level reading - 694.10  =  Saint Paul City Datum
> >
> Right... I see now. Any UK surveyor working in the US is going to need a 
> speedy re-education course, and vice versa.

Maybe not, depending on location.  I'm sure there are newer communities which have all their records in USGS sea-level numbers.

> > Sometimes a surveyor will not call for benchmarks and just pick a random place 
> on the site and call it "100.00".   I hate that.  When you design a house, you 
> should know the elevation of available sewer.  It is expensive and annoying to 
> make sludge flow uphill.  The builder ought to spec the job for the surveyor to 
> supply elevations tied to a standard.
> >
> >   
> As a contractor I find that method of levelling (temporary bench mark) 
> easier to work with. 

Except that you can't look a plan so marked and know the elevation of the city sewer.  Build the footing of your basement lower than the sewer and see how easy things become.

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Oct 30 10:37:14 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:37:14 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
Message-ID: <103020071737.19173.47276BCA0008E33D00004AE522058844849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> > USGS sea level reading - 694.10  =  Saint Paul City Datum
> 
> Phil, are you sure that's Mean Sea Level ?  Sounds to me more like an
> ellipsoidal height (meaning the theoretical model of the entire earth's
> surface that datums like WGS-84 are based on).  There are of course, some
> places that are below MSL, but even Death Valley is only 282 feet below.

Randall, I don't know whether you haven't been following the bread crumbs or if you are trolling.   Just to play along, I'll pretend you are serious.

Saint Paul is above sea level.  This makes a lot of sense because the Mississippi River flows downhill.   The magical mythical point on the Mississippi upon which early surveyors decided is now known to be 694.10 feet above USGS sea level.  Therefore, 694.10 USGS is equal to zero Saint Paul City Datum.  Therefore, a USGS elevation minus 694.10 equals a Saint Paul City Datum elevation.
 
> > Sometimes a surveyor will not call for benchmarks and just pick a random
> > place on the site and call it "100.00".
> 
> Which of course is the same basic process that produced your "Saint Paul
> City" datum.
> <G>

Yes, but the early surveyors had no choice.  The point they chose remained consistent over the entire period of the city's development.  Now that more accurate methods are available, we have a number to convert our local standard (used on 10,000 sewer maps) to a national standard.

This is not comparable to today's surveyor choosing a random point on a single building site.  Today's surveyor has an easy process to create a site plan showing elevations directly tied to either the national standard, the local standard, or both.  To create a site plan with no reference to either standard seems like sub-standard work to me.  Without a reference to existing benchmarks, a builder would have to go out to the site and shoot some elevations again to relate his site plan to existing City records of sewer elevations. 

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Oct 30 11:41:25 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:41:25 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
In-Reply-To: <103020071737.19173.47276BCA0008E33D00004AE522058844849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <103020071737.19173.47276BCA0008E33D00004AE522058844849D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <0bf301c81b24$79e4a7a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> The magical 
> mythical point on the Mississippi upon which early surveyors 
> decided is now known to be 694.10 feet above USGS sea level.  

Thanks for clarifying, Phil.  Sorry I got the sign flipped before.

> This is not comparable to today's surveyor choosing a random 
> point on a single building site.

Ok, that part was intended tongue-in-cheek.   (Hence the <G> indicating a
big grin.)

Perhaps I should explain that I worked for many years with satellite
surveying software (first Transit then later GPS) which produced positions
relative to global datums like WGS-72 and WGS-84.  Converting to local
datums (not to mention local "flat earth" map coordinates) was a major
headache for us.   Hard to claim with a straight face that we provide
centimeter-level accuracy when the datum conversion isn't known to even 10
meters !   And from our point of view, every little locality on the face of
the earth has chosen their own little datum/mapping system, based on little
more than "this looks like a good spot".  There are something like 500
different conversions just to cover the California State mapping system
(which is a bunch of overlapping Lambert grids).  So in that sense, it does
seem comparable, at least enough to base a joke on.

Sorry you didn't enjoy the joke.

BTW, the USGS has updated their estimate of MSL several times in the past
century, with changes in some inland areas varying by a meter or more.  To
really quote .01 foot accuracy, you need to specify *which* USGS map you are
referring to.  As I understand it, it's not even done by the USGS any more,
but was transferred to the new National Imagery and Mapping Agency a few
years ago.  Fortunately I no longer work with surveying, so I don't care.

Randall

From dreinsch at swbell.net  Tue Oct 30 14:10:56 2007
From: dreinsch at swbell.net (Dwade Reinsch)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:10:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Continuing education in Sewer and Surveying.
Message-ID: <658768.80968.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I, for one, have really enjoyed and learned from the discussion of sewers and surveying.
   
  Thanks,
  Dwade
   
  lurker from Texas

From vlm at te-motorworks.com  Tue Oct 30 14:12:57 2007
From: vlm at te-motorworks.com (Vin Marshall)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:12:57 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Continuing education in Sewer and Surveying.
In-Reply-To: <658768.80968.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <658768.80968.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BC8B2EF-3FF2-4DD3-B243-C1C014B822CD@te-motorworks.com>

I second this.

-vin


On Oct 30, 2007, at 5:10 PM, Dwade Reinsch wrote:

> I, for one, have really enjoyed and learned from the discussion of  
> sewers and surveying.
>
>   Thanks,
>   Dwade
>
>   lurker from Texas
> _______________________________________________
> vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

--
TE Motorworks, Inc.
Post Industrial Laboratory
215-426-1447

From clmautz at gmail.com  Tue Oct 30 14:35:31 2007
From: clmautz at gmail.com (clmautz at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:35:31 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Continuing education in Sewer and Surveying.
In-Reply-To: <4BC8B2EF-3FF2-4DD3-B243-C1C014B822CD@te-motorworks.com>
References: <658768.80968.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4BC8B2EF-3FF2-4DD3-B243-C1C014B822CD@te-motorworks.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.9.1193783667.12553.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

I think y'all are full of sh...  I mean, me too!  I've enjoyed this thread, and have been on the roof of a house with a snake clearing a clog in the basement - old house in Martinsville, VA, circa 1948, wifes grandfathers house.  Originally on septic, converted to public sewage in the 50/60's (if that matters).

Brings back memories - the things we do for love!  :-)

Chip

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Vin Marshall <vlm at te-motorworks.com>

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:12:57 
To:shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Continuing education in Sewer and Surveying.


I second this.

-vin


On Oct 30, 2007, at 5:10 PM, Dwade Reinsch wrote:

> I, for one, have really enjoyed and learned from the discussion of  
> sewers and surveying.
>
>   Thanks,
>   Dwade
>
>   lurker from Texas
> _______________________________________________
> vlm at te-motorworks.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

--
TE Motorworks, Inc.
Post Industrial Laboratory
215-426-1447
_______________________________________________
clmautz at gmail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From pethier at comcast.net  Tue Oct 30 15:40:01 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:40:01 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
Message-ID: <103020072240.19872.4727B2C10007B55500004DA022070016419D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com>
> BTW, the USGS has updated their estimate of MSL several times in the past
> century, with changes in some inland areas varying by a meter or more.  To
> really quote .01 foot accuracy, you need to specify *which* USGS map you are
> referring to.  As I understand it, it's not even done by the USGS any more,
> but was transferred to the new National Imagery and Mapping Agency a few
> years ago. 

Dunno.   The number hasn't changed here recently.  If you are building locally, your best bet is to shoot to our benchmarks.  We know our sewers haven't gone anywhere.    :-)



--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From tboicey at brit.ca  Tue Oct 30 16:29:29 2007
From: tboicey at brit.ca (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:29:29 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap little two stroke generators
Message-ID: <4727BE59.2080105@brit.ca>

   Has anyone bought one of these little two stroke generators?

   They seem to come in about twenty different private labels, around 
here I have seen them as "Power Fist" and "King Canada", and usually 
labeled 880W

   Here's a pic:

http://tomrowsell.com/node/185

   Now they look cheap, and they smell cheap, and they feel cheap, and 
all of the negatives... however the local tool paradise outlet (Princess 
Auto) is blowing them out for $95cdn.

   With all the low expectations I can muster, I'm still wondering if 
that might actually be worth it for occasional use.

   It's about a fifth the price of the McCulloch 1800W four stroke, 
which itself is about half the price of the Hondas...

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Oct 30 17:49:07 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap little two stroke generators
In-Reply-To: <4727BE59.2080105@brit.ca>
Message-ID: <67906.40736.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does Harbor Freight sell them?

:-)

Doug

--- Trevor Boicey <tboicey at brit.ca> wrote:

>    Has anyone bought one of these little two stroke
> generators?
> 
>    Now they look cheap, and they smell cheap, and
> they feel cheap, and 
> all of the negatives... however the local tool
> paradise outlet (Princess 
> Auto) is blowing them out for $95cdn.

From trevor at boicey.com  Tue Oct 30 18:13:40 2007
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:13:40 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap little two stroke generators
In-Reply-To: <67906.40736.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <67906.40736.qm@web606.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4727D6C4.5020304@boicey.com>

Doug Braun wrote:
> Does Harbor Freight sell them?

   Heheheh I wouldn't know, for all the discussion, it's not a store we 
have here...

   Anyways the generator original manufacturer I *THINK* is Launtop, 
although not a lot of them seem to be branded as such.

   Here's one on ebay with more text:

http://tinyurl.com/2tp4dw

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Oct 30 18:16:43 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:16:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <0JQR004JH4X0YBB0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

This is interesting, because New York City's system is still 
combined.  A heavy rain routinely overloads the system and discharges 
raw sewage into the environment.

http://riverkeeper.org/campaign.php/pollution/the_facts/986

And in nearby Hoboken, the city has tomatoes sprouting all over, 
allegedly from seeds in sewage that flooded the area.

http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2007/10/attack_of_the_killer_tomatoes.html
http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2007/10/crappy_tomato_plants_growing_b.html

I don't know if it's true, but it makes an amusing story.

At 10:11 AM 10/30/2007, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
>We used to have combined sewers here, but a Federal Court Order 
>caused us to separate the entire system a few decades ago.

From bill at gingerich.us  Tue Oct 30 20:37:18 2007
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:37:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <0JQR004JH4X0YBB0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0JQR004JH4X0YBB0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <001801c81b6f$5768e0b0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>

In the late '70's I worked for a company that made equipment for sewage
treatment plants.  One of the things I discovered was that most people don't
digest tomato seeds.  They just pass through.  And if the effluent from a
treatment plant is sprayed on a field, you can get some impressive tomatoes.
Very well fertilized tomatoes.

BTW, the VP of the company had a saying:  "It may be sh*t to you, but it's
bread and butter to me."  That was usually good for a chuckle, a few groans,
and some funny looks.

BillG
Newalla, OK



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Steven Trovato
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:17 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] plumping question

This is interesting, because New York City's system is still 
combined.  A heavy rain routinely overloads the system and discharges 
raw sewage into the environment.

http://riverkeeper.org/campaign.php/pollution/the_facts/986

And in nearby Hoboken, the city has tomatoes sprouting all over, 
allegedly from seeds in sewage that flooded the area.

http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2007/10/attack_of_the_killer_tomatoes
.html
http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2007/10/crappy_tomato_plants_growing_
b.html

I don't know if it's true, but it makes an amusing story.

At 10:11 AM 10/30/2007, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
>We used to have combined sewers here, but a Federal Court Order 
>caused us to separate the entire system a few decades ago.
_______________________________________________
bill at gingerich.us

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Oct 30 20:59:15 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:59:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <001801c81b6f$5768e0b0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <0JQR004JH4X0YBB0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<001801c81b6f$5768e0b0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <0JQR005ZGCEMD7D0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Seems like the septic/sewer business has some of the best slogans.  I 
guess you have to have a sense of humor.  I saw a septic truck that 
said "This truck carries only American made products".

At 11:37 PM 10/30/2007, Bill Gingerich wrote:
>BTW, the VP of the company had a saying:  "It may be sh*t to you, but it's
>bread and butter to me."  That was usually good for a chuckle, a few groans,
>and some funny looks.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Tue Oct 30 21:06:45 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:06:45 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question and sandrock sewers
In-Reply-To: <102920071848.27151.47262AF80004172F00006A0F22007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <102920071848.27151.47262AF80004172F00006A0F22007637049D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710302106h4fff5c16g6c9999701db8949e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/07, pethier at comcast.net <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>
> > Not bored, but interested.  Sewers are cool.  I'm perfectly happy to
> > let others keep them working though.
>
> So am I.  That's why I work in an office.
>
> Here is something I wrote a few years ago for a fellow bureaucrat at the City of Pismo Beach, California:

Thanks.  Very interesting.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Oct 31 05:50:28 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:50:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] septic humour
In-Reply-To: <001801c81b6f$5768e0b0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <0JQR004JH4X0YBB0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<001801c81b6f$5768e0b0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <000701c81bbc$9ded5f00$d9c81d00$@mele@usermail.com>

<"It may be sh*t to you, but it's
bread and butter to me." > 

I parked next to a very nice alum enclosed trailer at the track in Indiana a
few years ago (with my home made open trailer)...

"Ivey's Septic Service...your shit is my bread and butter"

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Oct 31 09:56:24 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:56:24 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Continuing education in Sewer and Surveying.
Message-ID: <103120071656.29663.4728B3B80008B313000073DF220073436404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

me, too.  y'all feel free to continue in this vein (or similar) as long as you like.
  
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dwade Reinsch <dreinsch at swbell.net>
> I, for one, have really enjoyed and learned from the discussion of sewers and 
> surveying.

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Oct 31 11:17:38 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:17:38 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
Message-ID: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: Steven Trovato <strovato at optonline.net>
> This is interesting, because New York City's system is still 
> combined.  A heavy rain routinely overloads the system and discharges 
> raw sewage into the environment.
> 
> http://riverkeeper.org/campaign.php/pollution/the_facts/986

Yes, this is what Saint Paul was doing before we separating our sewers.  Sewage crossed dams called "regulators" or "diversions" from combined sewers to storm sewers when the sewers were overcharged in a rain event.   Also, the treatment plant itself became overwhelmed and was forced to divert combined flow directly to the river.  A suit was brought in Federal Court by communities downstream on the Mississippi River.  The Court ordered the Cities of  Saint Paul, Minneapolis, and South Saint Paul to cease and desist.  Our solution was separation.  It took about a decade.  One fly in the ointment was that thousands of houses and buildings had reainleaders connected to their sewer lines.  They were directed, first by carrot and then by stick, to disconnect these rainleaders and dump rainwater either to ground or to storm sewers.  Having to run a downspout extension across a private sidewalk was not accepted as an excuse unless there was a handicapped person in the home, and then they 
were required to pay an annual water-treatment charge.  This was interesting when I would come up against a person who was alive when his father built the house in the 1930s and we REQUIRED him to connect rainleaders to sewer.  All I could say was that the folks in charge then had no crystal ball, and there was no grandfather clause.

It worked well.  With our efforts and that of others in Minnesota, the river is now cleaner here than it had been in generations.  The fish are back and the eagles are back to eat the fish.  I have seen eagles over my own neighborhood. (There are also peregrine falcons which nest on tall buildings and eat pigeons, but we can't take credit for them.)

Apparently, New York is planning on following the "store and treat" scheme so they don't have to rip up streets to lay new sewer pipe.  I am told that Milwaukee does this, storing all the city combined sewage in underground caverns, then pumping it up to the treatment plant when possible.   This is hearsay, as I have not seen Milwaukee's system.  

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 11:33:12 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:33:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710311133s509477dds895fa72b2e1e1c3f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/07, pethier at comcast.net <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:

> Apparently, New York is planning on following the "store and treat" scheme so they don't have to rip up streets to lay new sewer pipe.  I am told that Milwaukee does this, storing all the city combined sewage in underground caverns, then pumping it up to the treatment plant when possible.   This is hearsay, as I have not seen Milwaukee's system.
>

The milwaukee sewerage people have some pictures of their tunnels,
diagrams and so on, on their website
/wastewatertreatment/project_northwest_side_deep_tunnel.cfm
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mlye at risd.edu  Wed Oct 31 12:26:28 2007
From: mlye at risd.edu (Michael Lye)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:26:28 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2C6362C6-56C5-4742-85A4-A2C00DF5F722@risd.edu>

This topic has had a much longer life than I expected but It's been  
an interesting read.

In addition to the cities mentioned by Phil, Providence RI is doing  
this same thing right now. The digging of the underground caverns/ 
tunnels is impressive from the video I've seen and the project is  
fascinating to follow. See the following link for more details:
<http://www.narrabay.com/CSO.asp>
and
<http://www.narrabay.com/TBM.asp>

Michael


On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:17 PM, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
<snip>
> Apparently, New York is planning on following the "store and treat"  
> scheme so they don't have to rip up streets to lay new sewer pipe.   
> I am told that Milwaukee does this, storing all the city combined  
> sewage in underground caverns, then pumping it up to the treatment  
> plant when possible.   This is hearsay, as I have not seen  
> Milwaukee's system.

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Oct 31 12:46:34 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:46:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071031145231.L97457@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> It worked well.  With our efforts and that of others in Minnesota, the 
> river is now cleaner here than it had been in generations.  The fish are 
> back and the eagles are back to eat the fish.  I have seen eagles over 
> my own neighborhood. (There are also peregrine falcons which nest on 
> tall buildings and eat pigeons, but we can't take credit for them.)

    Chicago also has peregrine falcons, but unlike other cities mentioned, 
we still use our river as a toilet.  In fact, there's a drain immediately 
underneath the dock where I board the Water Taxi everyday, and if it has 
rained within 12 hours, the stench is overpowering.  This is, of course, 
the whole reason why the Chicago River flow was reversed 107 years ago. 
How, exactly, we continue to get away with pumping raw sawage into the 
Mississippi ( via the Illinois and Des Plaines ), I don't know.

--
  David Hillman

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 13:45:12 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:45:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <20071031145231.L97457@itonami.pair.com>
References: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<20071031145231.L97457@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40710311345j1eec5710i1f049bdc4210ef15@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/07, David Hillman <hillman at planet-torque.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> > It worked well.  With our efforts and that of others in Minnesota, the
> > river is now cleaner here than it had been in generations.  The fish are
> > back and the eagles are back to eat the fish.  I have seen eagles over
> > my own neighborhood. (There are also peregrine falcons which nest on
> > tall buildings and eat pigeons, but we can't take credit for them.)
>
>     Chicago also has peregrine falcons, but unlike other cities mentioned,
> we still use our river as a toilet.  In fact, there's a drain immediately
> underneath the dock where I board the Water Taxi everyday, and if it has
> rained within 12 hours, the stench is overpowering.  This is, of course,
> the whole reason why the Chicago River flow was reversed 107 years ago.
> How, exactly, we continue to get away with pumping raw sawage into the
> Mississippi ( via the Illinois and Des Plaines ), I don't know.

The Chicago area is in the process of spending a lot of money
(something on the order of $10 billion, over 30 or 40 years) to build
a bunch of large tunnels to hold the water.  The first stage, about
100 miles of tunnels 300 feet belowground, and aobut 15 feet in
diameter, plus some assorted resevoirs is done now, the rest is
supposed to be done in the next decade or so....
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Wed Oct 31 20:43:12 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:43:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] plumping question
In-Reply-To: <2C6362C6-56C5-4742-85A4-A2C00DF5F722@risd.edu>
References: <103120071817.16336.4728C6C20000BC4800003FD022070209539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<2C6362C6-56C5-4742-85A4-A2C00DF5F722@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <00c401c81c39$54415320$6501a8c0@proteus457>

This has been in the news a little bit lately in Omaha also since our sewage
system just dumps into the Missouri River when storms cause it to overrun.
I don't remember the exact numbers, but probably something like 15-25% of
the city has combined storm and sanitary sewers (the older parts of the
city).  By October, 2009 the city has to have a construction schedule
figured out, and construction has to be finished by 2024.  I haven't heard
all the details yet but I believe they're just going lay separate sewer line
everywhere that they're now combined.  There's going to be a whole lot of
diggin' goin' on for the next 17 years!

Mike Frerichs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Lye
> 
> In addition to the cities mentioned by Phil, Providence RI is doing
> this same thing right now. The digging of the underground caverns/
> tunnels is impressive from the video I've seen and the project is
> fascinating to follow. See the following link for more details:
> <http://www.narrabay.com/CSO.asp>
> and
> <http://www.narrabay.com/TBM.asp>
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:17 PM, pethier at comcast.net wrote:
> <snip>
> > Apparently, New York is planning on following the "store and treat"
> > scheme so they don't have to rip up streets to lay new sewer pipe.
> > I am told that Milwaukee does this, storing all the city combined
> > sewage in underground caverns, then pumping it up to the treatment
> > plant when possible.   This is hearsay, as I have not seen
> > Milwaukee's system.