From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Nov  1 07:50:47 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:50:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Continuing education in Sewer and Surveying.
In-Reply-To: <103120071656.29663.4728B3B80008B313000073DF220073436404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <103120071656.29663.4728B3B80008B313000073DF220073436404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00ae01c81c96$9754d350$c5fe79f0$@mele@usermail.com>

Roger that; I do best with pathology when I understand the underlying
anatomy and physiology...old habits die hard.



me, too.  y'all feel free to continue in this vein (or similar) as long as
you like.
  
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dwade Reinsch <dreinsch at swbell.net>
> I, for one, have really enjoyed and learned from the discussion of sewers
and 
> surveying.
_______________________________________________

From mikel at ichips.intel.com  Thu Nov  1 15:58:57 2007
From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 15:58:57 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a house?
Message-ID: <200711012258.lA1Mwvt3028049@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>

A somewhat strange request perhaps....
I'm running out of storage space in the garage, yet somehow end up 
accumulating more "stuff" all the time.... <G>
Well, we have a fairly large crawlspace under the house.  The dirt in there is 
pretty uneven, but seems to average around 8'.  I wish they would have built 
it out as a basement, but oh well....
At first, I thought the only access to the crawlspace was a small half-sized 
door at the back of the house.  However, ee just re-carpeted the floor, and 
when the old carpet was pulled, I saw an access panel in the hallway closet 
leading down to the crawlspace.
With this somewhat convenient access to the crawlspace, I'd like to "finish 
off" a section of it to use as storage.  By 'finish off", I mean something 
enclosed enough to keep out dust, dirt, insects, etc.  I figure I can somehow 
level off the dirt and build a small shedlike structure, or setup some covered 
shelving.  There is already an outside outlet accessible from within the 
crawlspace which I can tap and add additional outlets/lighting.
I need a way of moving things in and out of the crawlspace though, other than 
using a ladder (too awkward for me).  I was thinking of building some sort of 
lift, perhaps using some steel pipes for uprights, and a platform 
raised/lowered by a small electric hoist or winch.  It would only need to 
support 200-300 lbs.  Is this a feasible idea, and if so, how would I plan 
such a thing?  Would there be any possible building code violation in building 
such a thing, or using a crawlspace for such a purpose?

From rkg at teleport.com  Thu Nov  1 16:18:55 2007
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:18:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
References: <200711012258.lA1Mwvt3028049@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
Message-ID: <472A5EDF.6090300@teleport.com>

Mike,

First of all, if your foundation can deal with it/there aren't water 
table issues its a time honored remodeling improvement to just dig out a 
crawl
space and turn it into a basement  - you could just pour a slab and wall 
in a section (and even put in a stairway (or an outside door) if you're
motivated...).

As far as stair access goes, you might look into one of the many attic 
stair rigs - I've seen a number of different ones over the years, and...

Don't know what to say about your dumb waiter - maybe you could find 
some plans for one somewhere/copy a design from
an existing structure (good luck - a surprising number of houses had 
these at one time or another but they got ripped out).

Good Luck,

rkg
(Richard George)

>A somewhat strange request perhaps....
>I'm running out of storage space in the garage, yet somehow end up 
>accumulating more "stuff" all the time.... <G>
>Well, we have a fairly large crawlspace under the house.  The dirt in there is 
>pretty uneven, but seems to average around 8'.  I wish they would have built 
>it out as a basement, but oh well....
>At first, I thought the only access to the crawlspace was a small half-sized 
>door at the back of the house.  However, ee just re-carpeted the floor, and 
>when the old carpet was pulled, I saw an access panel in the hallway closet 
>leading down to the crawlspace.
>With this somewhat convenient access to the crawlspace, I'd like to "finish 
>off" a section of it to use as storage.  By 'finish off", I mean something 
>enclosed enough to keep out dust, dirt, insects, etc.  I figure I can somehow 
>level off the dirt and build a small shedlike structure, or setup some covered 
>shelving.  There is already an outside outlet accessible from within the 
>crawlspace which I can tap and add additional outlets/lighting.
>I need a way of moving things in and out of the crawlspace though, other than 
>using a ladder (too awkward for me).  I was thinking of building some sort of 
>lift, perhaps using some steel pipes for uprights, and a platform 
>raised/lowered by a small electric hoist or winch.  It would only need to 
>support 200-300 lbs.  Is this a feasible idea, and if so, how would I plan 
>such a thing?  Would there be any possible building code violation in building 
>such a thing, or using a crawlspace for such a purpose?
>_______________________________________________
>rkg at teleport.com
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Nov  1 16:24:48 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 19:24:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <472A5EDF.6090300@teleport.com>
References: <200711012258.lA1Mwvt3028049@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<472A5EDF.6090300@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <013101c81cde$6665e390$3331aab0$@mele@usermail.com>

<<I was thinking of building some sort of 
>lift, perhaps using some steel pipes for uprights, and a platform 
>raised/lowered by a small electric hoist or winch>>

I'd like a larger version to get stuff up from the first floor to the second
floor of my shops....

Any thoughts out there?
PM

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Thu Nov  1 19:21:02 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 19:21:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <013101c81cde$6665e390$3331aab0$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <472A5EDF.6090300@teleport.com>
	<200711012258.lA1Mwvt3028049@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<472A5EDF.6090300@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071101191856.031df778@incoming.verizon.net>

At 07:24 PM  11/1/2007  -0400, Paul Mele wrote:
><<I was thinking of building some sort of
> >lift, perhaps using some steel pipes for uprights, and a platform
> >raised/lowered by a small electric hoist or winch>>
>
>I'd like a larger version to get stuff up from the first floor to the second
>floor of my shops....
>
>Any thoughts out there?
>PM


I'm interested in something, too.  I teach high school shop and we have a 
sort of mezzanine/attic over the classroom.  We store lumber and other 
stuff up there and access is via a steep ship stair.  I'd like to build 
some kind of lift to get stuff up and down without having to manhandle it 
up and down the ship stair.  Of course I would have to find some way to 
keep the kids from riding it...

Dave C

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Thu Nov  1 19:29:35 2007
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:29:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
References: <200711012258.lA1Mwvt3028049@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>
	<472A5EDF.6090300@teleport.com>
	<013101c81cde$6665e390$3331aab0$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <009c01c81cf8$35b79530$8b237247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Thomas Jefferson invented them years ago, just a "pulley, rope, and a empty 
box", he called it a "dumb waiter"  :) :) "FT"

> <<I was thinking of building some sort of
>>lift, perhaps using some steel pipes for uprights, and a platform
>>raised/lowered by a small electric hoist or winch>>
>
> I'd like a larger version to get stuff up from the first floor to the 
> second
> floor of my shops....
>
> Any thoughts out there?
> PM

From darmstrong at nexicom.net  Thu Nov  1 20:04:15 2007
From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 23:04:15 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071101191856.031df778@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <200711020402.lA242wnX027554@smtp.nexicom.net>

You may want to start with an $ 80.00? HarborFreight electric hoist.

Doug Armstrong

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of David C.
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:21 PM
To: paul.mele at usermail.com; 'Richard George'
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
house?

At 07:24 PM  11/1/2007  -0400, Paul Mele wrote:
><<I was thinking of building some sort of
> >lift, perhaps using some steel pipes for uprights, and a platform
> >raised/lowered by a small electric hoist or winch>>
>
>I'd like a larger version to get stuff up from the first floor to the
second
>floor of my shops....
>
>Any thoughts out there?
>PM


I'm interested in something, too.  I teach high school shop and we have a 
sort of mezzanine/attic over the classroom.  We store lumber and other 
stuff up there and access is via a steep ship stair.  I'd like to build 
some kind of lift to get stuff up and down without having to manhandle it 
up and down the ship stair.  Of course I would have to find some way to 
keep the kids from riding it...

Dave C
_______________________________________________
darmstrong at nexicom.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.18/1104 - Release Date: 11/1/2007
6:47 PM
 

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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.18/1104 - Release Date: 11/1/2007
6:47 PM

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Nov  1 20:31:14 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:31:14 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <200711020402.lA242wnX027554@smtp.nexicom.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20071101191856.031df778@incoming.verizon.net>
	<200711020402.lA242wnX027554@smtp.nexicom.net>
Message-ID: <0JQV007WI0GF7CL0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Have you seen this?

http://www.genuinehotrod.com/PartDetail.asp?PartId=6326

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Thu Nov  1 22:15:14 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:15:14 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <0JQV007WI0GF7CL0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <200711020402.lA242wnX027554@smtp.nexicom.net>
	<5.0.0.25.2.20071101191856.031df778@incoming.verizon.net>
	<200711020402.lA242wnX027554@smtp.nexicom.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071101221343.0154c698@incoming.verizon.net>

That looks interesting; good starting point (along with the H.F. hoist).  I 
used a similar setup years ago to store a pickup canopy in above the 
truck.  I used a bunch of rope and pulleys and a manual boat trailer 
winch.  Worked ok.

Dave C

At 11:31 PM  11/1/2007  -0400, Steven Trovato wrote:
>Have you seen this?
>
>http://www.genuinehotrod.com/PartDetail.asp?PartId=6326
>_______________________________________________
>cavanadd at verizon.net
>
>Shop-talk mailing list
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 22:29:52 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 01:29:52 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071101221343.0154c698@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20071101191856.031df778@incoming.verizon.net>
	<200711020402.lA242wnX027554@smtp.nexicom.net>
	<0JQV007WI0GF7CL0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5.0.0.25.2.20071101221343.0154c698@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711012229l5f16fb5ev90e2be180f305e19@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/2/07, David C. <cavanadd at verizon.net> wrote:
> That looks interesting; good starting point (along with the H.F. hoist).  I
> used a similar setup years ago to store a pickup canopy in above the
> truck.  I used a bunch of rope and pulleys and a manual boat trailer
> winch.  Worked ok.
>

My dad has something similar to store the roof of his convertible.  It
works well, I think, but getting the car in the right place is tricky,
I think.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Nov  2 06:27:26 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:27:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
Message-ID: <OFBE9640FC.5BC26505-ON85257387.0049EC8E-85257387.0049EC93@mail.megageek.com>

Mike writes...

>I was thinking of building some sort of lift, perhaps using some steel
>pipes for uprights, and a platform raised/lowered by a small electric
>hoist or winch.  It would only need to support 200-300 lbs.  Is this a
>feasible idea, and if so, how would I plan such a thing?  Would there be
> any possible building code violation in building such a thing, or using
>crawlspace for such a purpose?

Ok, why stop there?  What I would do, is find an electric forklift locally
that has a bad battery.  They can be bought for a song.  Then, just gut the
thing and use the mast head as an elevator.

Note, I have no idea about the code for this, but who cares? Its way COOL!

(This is coming from a guy who last project was a power lift for a drying
rack for my SCUBA gear.  The lift is geared a little low, but it will pick
up over 500 pounds!  (and it only needs to lift about 40)

Check it out here...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jpR3L0Z_vPo

(sorry about the quality.)

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Nov  2 08:11:59 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:11:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator (part 1 of 2)
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071102101159.00ad5680@pop.east.cox.net>

><<I was thinking of building some sort of 
>>lift, perhaps using some steel pipes for uprights, and a platform 
>>raised/lowered by a small electric hoist or winch>>

To all those that expressed some interest in this project.

The first thing you need to figure out, is how much weight you
expect to lift.  For the fellow looking to store stuff under his
house, I don't expect that to be too much.  To those wanting to
lift stuff the their 2nd story of the garage/shop, I'd expect you'd
want to lift a lot more.

Someone had suggested the HF 800# wench.  That's a good start.  But
you have to know if it can lift 800# or is that for 800# rolling like
a car or boat onto a trailer.  

I'd want a wench that could lift 800#.  That being said, I'd also want
a safety factor of say 2, so I could only load 400# onto the lifting
platform.

The design could be made out of wood or steel.  If wood, I'd look at
using 4x4s or 2x6s.  If steel I'd look at using angle iron as it
would be stronger than flat bar.  Especially for the lifting derik.

The steel could be bolted, welded or both.  The wood should be through
bolted.

So that being decided, you have 2 seperate problems to design for:

1. a derik on the top that can lift the max design weight, 800#. 
  
   a. The design could either be 3 or 4 legged.  If 4 leggs, you'd want to
      connect the 4 verticals, and then probably have something going across
      the middle where the wench is to be mounted.  

      We build a derik in my dads garage using 2 vertical 2x6s, on each side
      and 2 2x6s across the tops to pull engines.  Which were close to the
      800# design criteria.

   b. It would have to be high enough for the largest item not to fowl the
      lifting rig.  So what is the tallest item you think you'd put on it?
      My guess would be at least 4 feet tall.

      So the derik would have to be 5' or taller to hold the wench and have
      the platform come up.  You may be limited in height based on the
      height of the ceiling.  If so, you're lifting platform would have to
      be lower, consiquently the size of an object to lift would have to 
      be smaller.

Continued



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Nov  2 08:12:21 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:12:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator (part 2 of 2)
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071102101221.00adfe38@pop.east.cox.net>

2. The lifting platform.  It has 2 areas of concern.

   a. The actual structure, the vertical posts would have to be strong
      enough to lift the 800#.  But since there are would be 4 verticals
      then each one would only carry about 200# is the load is evenly
      destributed.  No big problem.  Again 2x4s, 4x4s or steel.

      Then some support across the center at the top for the actual lifting.
      keep in mind that all the weight (800#) would be concentrated here.
      So this will have to be strong!!!

   b. The platform it's self.  You could make the bottom frame that is 
      square or rectangular with some stringer across the length.  Then
      you could put something like plywood, 3/4" thick min. as a floor 
      so there weren't any gaps, if you rolled something onto it.

I think this would work easier if you really had a strong floor at the 
lifting end.  However, it could be offset so that you lifted to the outside
edge of say a mesaneen (sp)/balcony.  This would require safety rails across
the outter edge of the balcony.

If you aren't going up an enclosed shaft, you'll also want some side rails
on the lifting platform, and a little lip around the floor, so the objects 
don't slide off.

If you use a single lifting point, like the wench, the ballance of the load
would be more critical as will the reinforcements for the lifting point,
both to the lifting platform and the anchoring of the wench.

If you use multiple points to lift, you'll need a spool on the wench that 
can handle the extra line.  A 4 piont lift would be most stable, but require
the most line.

Don't know if this helps or give any ideas to those trying the project.
But if anyone does build it, please post some pictures and send us the
link.  I'd love to see what/how you did it.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Fri Nov  2 10:04:04 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:04:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] metal cutting carbide blade
Message-ID: <1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>

I've got an older B&D abrasive chop saw.  Someone on another forum recommended
a carbide tooth blade made by Bullet Industries to replace the abrasive.  The
14" blade is rated at 4400 rpm and leaves a 1/4" kerf in carbon or stainless
up to 1/4" thick...   It's 50 bucks

anyone have any experience in swapping these out or with the bullet blade in
particular ??

here's a link to the product page...

http://www.bulletindustries.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/99_144/product
s_id/784

thanks
John

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Fri Nov  2 10:21:22 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:21:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] metal cutting carbide blade
In-Reply-To: <1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>
References: <1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <017301c81d74$ca69ead0$5f3dc070$@mele@usermail.com>

<Subject: [Shop-talk] metal cutting carbide blade>

Not exactly what you're asking, but I did do a blurb on the DeWalt
metal-cutting carbide chop saw several years ago when I bought mine.  
It will make you leave the abrasive saw for field work cutting rebar or
other non-critical work.  The speed and precision with square tubing and
angle iron (a favorite for fabrication projects) saves so much time in the
project.

I do note that my saw has a reduction gear...the blade probably turns around
1200 RPM (I'd need to go look to be sure).  Hence, the $100 blade for this
saw would likely overheat at the abrasive-blade's speed.

Perhaps the blade you mention is happy at the higher speed.  If you can't
"adapt", I definitely look at the whole new saw set up, as you'll save lots
of time, and probably money, in the long run.

PM

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  2 12:20:11 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:20:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <OFBE9640FC.5BC26505-ON85257387.0049EC8E-85257387.0049EC93@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFBE9640FC.5BC26505-ON85257387.0049EC8E-85257387.0049EC93@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <05e801c81d85$692334f0$3b699ed0$@net>

Hey Eric - I think you just coined the motto for our list:

" I have no idea about the code for this, but who cares? Its way COOL!"

From strovato at optonline.net  Fri Nov  2 12:28:04 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:28:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] metal cutting carbide blade
In-Reply-To: <1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>
References: <1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <0JQW00F508T4DO90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I got one of these for my hand circular saw:  http://www.metaldevil.com/

I'm impressed.  It's almost like cutting wood.  Much nicer than 
abrasive blades.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From shiples at comcast.net  Fri Nov  2 14:38:05 2007
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:38:05 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <OFBE9640FC.5BC26505-ON85257387.0049EC8E-85257387.0049EC93@
	mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071102143200.038d4ec0@mail.comcast.net>

>Note, I have no idea about the code for this, but who cares? Its way COOL!

I too have spent waaay to much time thinking about this.

I have considered "powering" the lift with a tank that functions as a 
counterbalance.
Storage tank, counterbalance tank, hoses, fittings, and a pump. Tank full 
and the lift
goes up, tank empty and the lift goes down.

What I've never figured out is the failsafe system like the original Otis? 
elevator.

Like when the air pressure blows out the air hose, or the power goes out, 
or when
the chain fractures, or a moth shorts out the relay....

And regarding building codes.....If it's part of the structure my guess is 
that it should
be built to code.  But what if it's a device that is not part of the 
structure?  I don't think
the building inspector has any say in what kind of lift I use in my shop.

Oh, and even though this is a little off topic,  You're going to need the 
stuff you're storing?
http://eldercare.uniontrib.com/news/denise/hoarding.cfm

Personally, I've noticed some of the stuff I've stored over the years are 
reminders of some
of my "ineffective" behaviors.

From mog8 at oh.rr.com  Fri Nov  2 16:15:30 2007
From: mog8 at oh.rr.com (Gary K)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071102143200.038d4ec0@mail.comcast.net>
References: <OFBE9640FC.5BC26505-ON85257387.0049EC8E-85257387.0049EC93@
	mail.megageek.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071102143200.038d4ec0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c81da6$486e6470$d94b2d50$@rr.com>

I knew a guy once who made a dumb-waiter type elevator drive system (small,
to move clothes and food to the basement) out of a Genie Garage Door Opener.


Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+mog8=oh.rr.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+mog8=oh.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steve
Shipley
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 2:38 PM
To: shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
house?

>Note, I have no idea about the code for this, but who cares? Its way COOL!

I too have spent waaay to much time thinking about this.

I have considered "powering" the lift with a tank that functions as a 
counterbalance.
Storage tank, counterbalance tank, hoses, fittings, and a pump. Tank full 
and the lift
goes up, tank empty and the lift goes down.

What I've never figured out is the failsafe system like the original Otis? 
elevator.

Like when the air pressure blows out the air hose, or the power goes out, 
or when
the chain fractures, or a moth shorts out the relay....

And regarding building codes.....If it's part of the structure my guess is 
that it should
be built to code.  But what if it's a device that is not part of the 
structure?  I don't think
the building inspector has any say in what kind of lift I use in my shop.

Oh, and even though this is a little off topic,  You're going to need the 
stuff you're storing?
http://eldercare.uniontrib.com/news/denise/hoarding.cfm

Personally, I've noticed some of the stuff I've stored over the years are 
reminders of some
of my "ineffective" behaviors.

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Fri Nov  2 17:06:59 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:06:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Building a service elevator/dumb waiter under a
 house?
In-Reply-To: <001a01c81da6$486e6470$d94b2d50$@rr.com>
References: <OFBE9640FC.5BC26505-ON85257387.0049EC8E-85257387.0049EC93@
	mail.megageek.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071102143200.038d4ec0@mail.comcast.net>
	<001a01c81da6$486e6470$d94b2d50$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <472BBBA3.6040204@xxiii.com>

Gary K wrote:
> I knew a guy once who made a dumb-waiter type elevator drive system (small,
> to move clothes and food to the basement) out of a Genie Garage Door Opener.

!!! IT PUTS THE FOOD ON THE GENIE !!!

    -W

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Nov  3 11:46:57 2007
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:46:57 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
Message-ID: <20071103.144657.4069.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Our flight department generates some nice 28V batteries that have a time limit
in the planes but have a lot of life still in them.  I was thinking of making
a UPS with them.  I guess it would mean a 28V float charger and in inverter
that would work off 28V.
A 28V to 110AC inverter should be a relatively common aircraft item.  Finding
one no longer flight worthy would be the way to go.
I know there are 28V Li-ion tool chargers but I don't think they would work
for lead acid.
Any ideas from the group?  How hard would it be to have someone  with the
capability draw up the design and I build from components?  It doesn't have to
look pretty.
Thanks,
Matt

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 12:11:31 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 15:11:31 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
In-Reply-To: <20071103.144657.4069.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071103.144657.4069.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711031211m1efb7d0bg6a45a3baace0ff11@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/07, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:
> Our flight department generates some nice 28V batteries that have a time limit
> in the planes but have a lot of life still in them.  I was thinking of making
> a UPS with them.  I guess it would mean a 28V float charger and in inverter
> that would work off 28V.
> A 28V to 110AC inverter should be a relatively common aircraft item.  Finding
> one no longer flight worthy would be the way to go.
> I know there are 28V Li-ion tool chargers but I don't think they would work
> for lead acid.
> Any ideas from the group?  How hard would it be to have someone  with the
> capability draw up the design and I build from components?  It doesn't have to
> look pretty.

Is it really a "28V" battery?  How many cells does it have?  I have a
feeling that they're called 28V batteries because it's used in a 28V
electrical system, but the rest of the non-aviation world calls them
24V.  If that's the case, you'll be able to use stuff intended for
marine or heavy-duty truck use, which is cheaper.

> Thanks,
> Matt
> _______________________________________________
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Nov  3 13:34:33 2007
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 20:34:33 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
Message-ID: <20071103.163433.21687.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Doohhhh!   in my best Homer Simpson voice...
They typically read 24-26 volts.
That is good news, I am sure that your are right and there should be some off
the shelf components to make this easier...
Matt

-- "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/3/07, Matt <mbarre at juno.com> wrote:
> Our flight department generates some nice 28V batteries that have a time
limit
> in the planes but have a lot of life still in them.  I was thinking of
making
> a UPS with them.  I guess it would mean a 28V float charger and in inverter
> that would work off 28V.


Is it really a "28V" battery?  How many cells does it have?  I have a
feeling that they're called 28V batteries because it's used in a 28V
electrical system, but the rest of the non-aviation world calls them
24V.  If that's the case, you'll be able to use stuff intended for
marine or heavy-duty truck use, which is cheaper.

David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pete at partnercomm.com  Sat Nov  3 13:51:32 2007
From: pete at partnercomm.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:51:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
In-Reply-To: <20071103.163433.21687.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711031648030.11962-100000@eminence.partnercomm.com>

Most of the UPS systems I have use 24V or 48V battery systems (12V
batteries in series). You could pick up some used APC SmartUPS700, 1000 or
1500 and hack in several of those "28V" batteries (wired in parallel) for
very extended runtime...

-Peter

--
Peter Murray (N3IXY)
Oak Hill, VA

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007, Matt wrote:

> Doohhhh!   in my best Homer Simpson voice...
> They typically read 24-26 volts.
> That is good news, I am sure that your are right and there should be some off
> the shelf components to make this easier...
> Matt

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sat Nov  3 15:19:32 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:19:32 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
In-Reply-To: <20071103.144657.4069.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20071103211933.EARY20672.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

> I know there are 28V Li-ion tool chargers but I don't think 
> they would work for lead acid.

Are you sure they are lead-acid ?  The ones my helicopter pilot buddy used
to give me were nickel-cadmium.

FWIW, some APC UPS units at least used to have external battery connections.
Even if you had to modify the charger portion somewhat for a different
battery voltage/chemistry, I would think a used UPS would be a much cheaper
starting point than trying to source the components (and design) to build
your own from scratch.

Randall

From mbarre at juno.com  Sat Nov  3 14:33:41 2007
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:33:41 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
Message-ID: <20071103.173341.21422.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

Definitely lead acid for us.  OEMs often use NiCad but they are pricey and
come with the risk of thermal runaway at no extra charge...   I hear the risk
of TR isn't what it used to be when they first came out with nicads, but some
herky lead acids seem to be a popular retrofit.  Plus you can ship them if you
find yourself low on juice somewhere.
It also looks like there are quite a few UPS for sale with the caveat "needs
batteries"!

Matt

-- "Randall" <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I know there are 28V Li-ion tool chargers but I don't think
> they would work for lead acid.

Are you sure they are lead-acid ?  The ones my helicopter pilot buddy used
to give me were nickel-cadmium.

FWIW, some APC UPS units at least used to have external battery connections.

From bill at gingerich.us  Sun Nov  4 21:26:35 2007
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:26:35 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
In-Reply-To: <20071103211933.EARY20672.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071103.144657.4069.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
	<20071103211933.EARY20672.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <000001c81f64$0e733100$8ba5c6d8@shack2>

We have several 3, 5, and 10 KVA APC rack mount UPS' at work, and all of
them have plugs for eternal battery packs.  I believe they are 48 volt, but
I'm not 100% sure.  I would think finding used units that will take external
batteries would be fairly simple.

BillG
Newalla, OK



-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Randall
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 5:20 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] EE question

> I know there are 28V Li-ion tool chargers but I don't think 
> they would work for lead acid.

Are you sure they are lead-acid ?  The ones my helicopter pilot buddy used
to give me were nickel-cadmium.

FWIW, some APC UPS units at least used to have external battery connections.
Even if you had to modify the charger portion somewhat for a different
battery voltage/chemistry, I would think a used UPS would be a much cheaper
starting point than trying to source the components (and design) to build
your own from scratch.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Sun Nov  4 23:21:09 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 01:21:09 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] EE question
In-Reply-To: <000001c81f64$0e733100$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <20071103.144657.4069.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>
	<20071103211933.EARY20672.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
	<000001c81f64$0e733100$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <0JR000GC4SBF77B0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Ah, eternal battery packs.  If only there was such a thing, wouldn't 
it be great? :-)

At 11:26 PM 11/4/2007, Bill Gingerich wrote:
>and all of
>them have plugs for eternal battery packs.

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Nov  5 13:31:32 2007
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:31:32 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Those mysterious electrons.....
Message-ID: <003e01c81fea$dda908b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

I am having trouble understanding what is going on. (that's nothing new!)

I am trying to trouble shoot my string of 12v walk lights. The last one in
the string quit working after a few years of working flawlessly. The first
thing I checked was the bulb. It is fine in other sockets. Next I reset the
connector which pierces the line and still no results. Next I took the tape
off of the end and stuck the probes of my multi-meter directly into the
wires. No reading. So I went the the next light that was working and much to
my surprise, I got no indication of voltage there, even though I could plug
the light back in and it worked fine. Next I went directly to the
transformer feeding the line and got no reading there. I then check my meter
against a battery...it was a perfect 1.5 v. I then checked the AC range and
it was fine too.

So, can anybody explain what's going on?

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Mon Nov  5 13:56:25 2007
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:56:25 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery analysis tools
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105155326.028c0608@pop.nycap.rr.com>

I get  many batteries thru here, and scrap almost all of them.

I feel I should be testing them and saving the better ones.

I dont have the time or patience to use timed load testers, tho I have one.

do the new conductance testers tell  enough to be useful?

any recommendations?

thanks

skip

Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Nov  5 14:22:59 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:22:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Those mysterious electrons.....
In-Reply-To: <003e01c81fea$dda908b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <003e01c81fea$dda908b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <472F89B3.3070200@hornesystemstx.com>

My first thought was that you had your meter set to DC, while the lights 
run on AC. But since you checked the meter on AC, that may not be the 
problem. Check the output of the transformer again, just to be sure that 
you are on the AC range. (Also check the rating plate on the transformer 
to be sure that it is supposed to put out AC).

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Gerald Brazil:
> I am having trouble understanding what is going on. (that's nothing new!)
>
> I am trying to trouble shoot my string of 12v walk lights. The last one in
> the string quit working after a few years of working flawlessly. The first
> thing I checked was the bulb. It is fine in other sockets. Next I reset the
> connector which pierces the line and still no results. Next I took the tape
> off of the end and stuck the probes of my multi-meter directly into the
> wires. No reading. So I went the the next light that was working and much to
> my surprise, I got no indication of voltage there, even though I could plug
> the light back in and it worked fine. Next I went directly to the
> transformer feeding the line and got no reading there. I then check my meter
> against a battery...it was a perfect 1.5 v. I then checked the AC range and
> it was fine too.
>
> So, can anybody explain what's going on?
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Nov  5 14:32:59 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:32:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Those mysterious electrons.....
In-Reply-To: <003e01c81fea$dda908b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <003e01c81fea$dda908b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <0JR100JX7YJ9GH21@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Some power supplies appear to be doing nothing if you check them 
without any load on them.  Do your checks while at least one of the 
lights is on.

-Steve Trovato
strovato at optonline.net

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Nov  5 17:08:41 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:08:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery analysis tools
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105155326.028c0608@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <157151.70407.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Do you mean flashlight batteries, Nicads, gel-cells,
or car batteries?

Doug

--- Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:

> I get  many batteries thru here, and scrap almost
> all of them.
> 
> I feel I should be testing them and saving the
> better ones.
> 
> I dont have the time or patience to use timed load
> testers, tho I have one.
> 
> do the new conductance testers tell  enough to be
> useful?
> 
> any recommendations?

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Mon Nov  5 17:43:45 2007
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:43:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery analysis tools
In-Reply-To: <157151.70407.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105155326.028c0608@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<157151.70407.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105194205.029383c0@pop.nycap.rr.com>

At 07:08 PM 11/5/2007, you wrote:
>Do you mean flashlight batteries, Nicads, gel-cells,
>or car batteries?

sorry, I'm used to the mind readers list ;)

these will be auto batteries, plain old lead-acid, tho I suppose I 
might need to check the Optima style in the future.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 18:30:43 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:30:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery analysis tools
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105194205.029383c0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105155326.028c0608@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<157151.70407.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20071105194205.029383c0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711051730i5c7cfc7at3a87284fc644efcc@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/5/07, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> At 07:08 PM 11/5/2007, you wrote:
> >Do you mean flashlight batteries, Nicads, gel-cells,
> >or car batteries?
>
> sorry, I'm used to the mind readers list ;)
>
> these will be auto batteries, plain old lead-acid, tho I suppose I
> might need to check the Optima style in the future.

What are you doing with the batteries?  Selling them?  or sticking
them in cars that need them?  I don't think I'd trust the conductance
testers to sell batteries with a guarantee, but I think they'd work
well enough to see if the battery in a used car is good enough.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From trevor at boicey.com  Mon Nov  5 22:30:31 2007
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:30:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] battery analysis tools
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105194205.029383c0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20071105155326.028c0608@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<157151.70407.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20071105194205.029383c0@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <472FFBF7.8050704@boicey.com>

Skip Albright wrote:
> At 07:08 PM 11/5/2007, you wrote:
>> Do you mean flashlight batteries, Nicads, gel-cells,
>> or car batteries?
> 
> sorry, I'm used to the mind readers list ;)
> 
> these will be auto batteries, plain old lead-acid, tho I suppose I 
> might need to check the Optima style in the future.

   I think you mentioned this as "not good enough", but I have a 50A 
load tester I got from the local parts store.

   Takes about 30 seconds and cost about $20. I think they had a 100A 
one for about $50.

   So... now I'm curious, what isn't good enough about mine?

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Nov  6 09:00:28 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:00:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Those mysterious electrons.....
In-Reply-To: <003e01c81fea$dda908b0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <201090.33376.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In my experience, the test leads for your meter can
get old and the wire can break near the connectors at
either end.  This can drive you crazy trying to use
the meter.

Also, you can get a bad connection in your wiring,
with a high resistance that allows the meter to see
the full voltage, but is incapable of supplying any
significant current to a lamp.

Doug

--- Gerald Brazil <gerrybraz at cablespeed.com> wrote:

> I am having trouble understanding what is going on.
> (that's nothing new!)
> Next I took the tape
> off of the end and stuck the probes of my
> multi-meter directly into the
> wires. No reading. So I went the the next light that
> was working and much to
> my surprise, I got no indication of voltage there,
> even though I could plug
> the light back in and it worked fine. Next I went
> directly to the
> transformer feeding the line and got no reading
> there. I then check my meter
> against a battery...it was a perfect 1.5 v. I then
> checked the AC range and
> it was fine too.

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Tue Nov  6 10:13:21 2007
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:13:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Those mysterious electrons....well, duh.....
Message-ID: <000001c82098$566d4a60$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

Thanks to all.....
Skip Albright was the first to set my thinking right.....He said, "Is there
any chance it is DC?"  I was all set to reply that this was the range I was
testing it with....and then the light bulb went on.....I went back and set
my meter to AC and guess what? about 11v....my prior walk lights were DC and
I  ASSUMED that these were too....WRONG! If I had looked at the transformer
box it clearly said 12 v AC.

Electrons do what they are supposed to do, it is people who do dumb
things.....

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Tue Nov  6 10:33:14 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:33:14 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud and pipe sensors
Message-ID: <001501c8209b$1ca7fc50$6e01a8c0@KARL>

I need a good stud and pipe sensor.  The current need is for locating
electrical conduit.

My 1871 house was moved and rebuilt in 1951, with rock lath (looks like small
sheets of 3/8" drywall) and plaster.  the total thickness varies from about
7/8" to 1-1/8".

Old fashioned magnetic stud sensors aren't too successful at finding nails in
the rock lath, deep below rough and finish plaster.  The 25-year-old "high
tech" sensor I have tried is virtually useless on these walls.

There are lots of modern stud sensors available, from Zircon and others.  Some
purport to be able to sense pipes through drywall.  Is anything currently
available likely to be able to find conduit let into studs, behind my
extra-thick walls ?

Of course, the conduit system is grounded at multiple points (some of it in
the concrete floor), but water pipe runs in the ground, and water departments
use a transmitter of some sort to help locate pipe in the ground.  Is
something like that an option ?

Thanks!
Karl

From wmgilroy at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 10:18:40 2007
From: wmgilroy at gmail.com (Bill Gilroy)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:18:40 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan, part 2
Message-ID: <441250190711090918i731ff5d2odb4f58bdd6b46ac@mail.gmail.com>

Seemed like plenty of people were happy with the Blitz pan that I have.  I
took some time, made a new gasket for the drain plug and made sure that I
wiped out the inside of the spout after pouring the oil out of the pan.  I
don't get drip new so I guess I can live with this pan.  They should have
put the spout at the bottom of the pan and angled it upwards.

-g

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Nov  9 10:32:38 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:32:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
Message-ID: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>

Ok, a few years ago I lost a relationship because, among other problems, my
girlfriend was very jealous of my shop and the time I spent doing projects
in there.  Note, it was mostly projects that NEEDED to get done.  i.e.
brakes needed to be replaced, lawn mower needs work to start etc.
I tried to include her in the projects when I could, but that didnbt work.
Now, that relationship was doomed for other reasons as well, so this wasnbt
the only problem and Ibm totally over it.

But, Ibm in a new relationship and things are pretty serious.  Right now
things are going great because she lives about 1.5 hours away, so we donbt
get to see each other all the time.  But, if we move in together and take
it to the next level, I suspect I might see many of the same problems.  Ibm
wondering if the married guys here want to give up some secrets to avoiding
issues like these in the future.  For the few women we have on the list,
Ibd love to hear your perspectives as well.

Before you get started, please know that I understand b
balance.b
  I donbt
spend every free minute in the shop.  But I want to make sure I still have
time for my b
funb
 projects (like a motorized scuba gear lift, my bicycle
shopping cart, or making my own 3pt air compressor for sand blasting.)
These projects were put aside in the last relationship and I want to make
sure I donbt give up the b
meb
 time for them.

Any yes, I know that b
if she really loves me, shebll understand.b
  Ibm just
looking for the gems of wisdoms from everyone there thatbs been there.




Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From ericm at lne.com  Fri Nov  9 10:50:26 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:50:26 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <20071109175026.GH9661@slack.lne.com>

I have the same problem with cycling.  Training for bike racing
takes up most of my spare time- up to 15 hours a week in season.

I was into cycling and motorcycles when I met my wife, so
she knew about it ahead of time.  But the last couple years I
have gotten obsessed with a particularly difficult race
(the Everest Challenge- everestchallenge.com) which
has required more training than just doing centuries and
the Death Ride.

So far we're still together.

I've tried to set aside time to spend with her doing stuff that
she likes.  Well, stuff that we both like, but making sure
that it's definately stuff she likes.  I went so far as to arrange
a long weekend getaway to a B&B right in the middle of my buildup
to the EC, and didn't bring a bike.  The couple days off the bike
came when I needed a break, and not bringing a bike meant that I
could relax with her.

Having her involved in my cycling to the extent that she wishes
(for some reason she likes coming to the Death Ride even though
she doesn't ride and only sees me go by once) helps too.
She's worked with me in the garage on her own bikes when I was working
on mine.

Being open about it and communicating is important.

So does picking a partner who is ok with not being entertained
every minute.  I've had girlfriends who threw compleye hissy fits
when I came home from a day hunting later than I said I was going to.
My wife, other than worrying about me being ok, wouldn't do that.   She's
got her own stuff that she's in to.


Eric

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Nov  9 11:20:59 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:20:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice (part 1 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@
	mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071109132059.00adf788@pop.east.cox.net>

At 12:32 PM 11/9/2007 -0500, eric at megageek.com wrote:

>Ok, a few years ago I lost a relationship because, among other problems, my
>girlfriend was very jealous of my shop and the time I spent doing projects
>in there.  Note, it was mostly projects that NEEDED to get done....

Moose,

Let me start by saying:

a. I've been married to the same woman for 31 yrs and we went together for 
   4 yrs before we got married.

b. I don't understand women!!!

>From my prospective, as a man trying to like like a woman, I'd prefer 
someone who could and did those types of things for several reasons:

1. That would save us money.  (Note: I've done 98% of our home maintenance,
plumbing, electrical, and maintained the daily drivers along with restoring
a couple of cars over that 35 yrs we been together.)

2. I'd know where he was, in the shop, not out running around.

>But, I'm in a new relationship and things are pretty serious....
>But, if we move in together and take it to the next level, I suspect I 
>might see many of the same problems. 

There's no guarentees with relationships - only with appliances.

There's the old addage, better now than after you're married, and have 
kids, etc.  So go for it, and see what happens.

>I'm wondering if the married guys here want to give up some secrets to 
>avoiding issues like these in the future.

I don't think so.  It's sort-of the luck of the draw.  Things change 
over time, so do people and relationships.

Take my wife, please!  No, when we were dating, she helped me restore my
65 Volvo P1800, and working on many other cars, including paint a friends
car.  She'd take all the dirty jobs, like sitting inside the car scrapping
off the old tar paper sound deadening stuff.  She also became a pretty
good wrench turner.  We got to where we could do a clutch in the 1800 in
45 minutes.

But, after we got married, she stopped helping me with the cars.  Then 
we bought a house, and the kids came along, it got worse.  She wouldn't 
even come out to a car show with me.  

Her priorities changed from me to the house and the kids.  To some extent,
as it should be.

continued
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Nov  9 11:20:59 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:20:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice (part 2 of 2)
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071109132059.00adc1f0@pop.east.cox.net>

As the kids got older so did we.  But she's never come back out in the shop
to help me.  Oh yes, if I'm working on something, and really need another
pair of hands, I can get her to help.  In fact, last Sunday, I was trying
to paint her minivan.  After I got the roof sanded down to bare metal,
she helped me tape it up so I could shoot the primer.

Everyone I talk to, or shows on TV I've watched, say it's communications!!!!  
But you'll find that there are some things you just can't talk about.  
However, there's a lot of stuff you should talk about, like spending habbits, 
debt, views on kids, etc.  What do you and she want out of life.

The more you two can discuss your hobbies, and dreams, the better you'll
understand each other.  She may enjoy working with you on some of your 
projects.  Or she may rather let you play in the shop while she goes out
to a garage sale.  But that's something you two have to come to grips with.

>Before you get started, please know that I understand balance.  I don't
>spend every free minute in the shop.

That's a good beginning!!!  That ballance is one of the reasons that I've
been trying to restore a 75 Bricklin for over 12 years.  The kids grew up,
both played in the school's band.  So we had various events to go to.  I
didn't miss but one, and that was because I was sick, not because I was
in the shop.  I also don't take food out of their mouths.  I save my change,
and that's my mad/play money.  So when I needed a MIG welder to work on 
the chassis of the Bricklin, it took me 2 yrs to save the $800 for the
welder.  Consiquently, not much got done on the car while I was waiting
for the welder.

Are you both laid back? Are you both very strong willed?  I personally think
the more laid back you and she are, the more you'll let things slide.
Very strong willed people won't stand for things not going their way.
Consiquently, if one likes to shoot pool, and the other rather play
foosball, they may split up because neither gets their way.  I realize
this is a trivial example, but stuff like this happens all the time.

You've both got to see eye to eye on spending, and debt.  If one or both
are high maintenance, you're in for a rough time.  

Kind of like the C vs the A students.  (Again an over simplification but
there is a lot of truth in this.)  The C students are pluggers and
chuggers, used to hitting their heads against the wall untill they 
understand.  So lifes problems are just another thing to work through.
While the A students will, look for the easy way out, if they're not
getting a A in a given coures, they'll drop it.  Things come easy to
them.  So when presented with a tough problem they'll give up, and 
walk away from it.

So go for it.  Talk a lot about things that matter to each of you. And
you both have to LISTEN to the other.  If you don't like what you hear,
then you should keep looking.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From shannah at pobox.com  Fri Nov  9 11:30:45 2007
From: shannah at pobox.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:30:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <636286.43195.qm@web506.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Let me start with the disclaimer: I'm a woman
who likes doing stuff like working on cars, 
doing woodworking, etc.  Some of my happiest
hours have been working with hubby on woodturning
projects and such.

I think that most women have some sort of
hobby.  Might be shopping.  My SIL loves to
tidy and decorate her house.  I love to quilt
and knit.  It's my belief that if one partner
wants to have the freedom to do their thing,
so should the other.  Women who spend hours
each day crafting, then hassle their hubbies
for going out and adjusting the lawnmower 
drive me bananas.  

Now, all of that said, I think that there
also has to be a certain amount of flexibility.
I used to date a guy who would not talk to me
when he was working on stuff, except to say
"3/8 box end".  :(  No please, no thank you,
no "howareya".  I was expected to be a tool
dispenser, but woe be unto me if I expected
him to even just explain what he was doing.

That relationship didn't last long.

If you're being relatively interactive when
she shows up in the shop, and are tolerant 
of her hobbies, I think you can reasonably
expect she will be tolerant of yours. A 
cheerful "Hi Sweetie" when you see her feet
appear can go a long way.  :)

Shannah

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Nov  9 12:40:15 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:40:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <1194637215.4734b79f3edec@webmail.mebtel.net>

Oops, somehow I got subscribed to DrPhil...!?!?  j/k

Quoting eric at megageek.com:

> Ok, a few years ago I lost a relationship...
> Now, that relationship was doomed for other reasons as well, 

I suspect the second statement has more to do with the first than your shop 
activities. 

> if the married guys here want to give up some secrets to avoiding
> issues like these in the future.  

Luck? I really don't know. We've been married over 30 years. I've always had 
some sort of shop - from a dedicated work/desk in an apartment to a basement 
shop/garage in our first house, etc. 

I still have my first car (an MGA). When we were starting our family and money 
was tight I suggested we sell the MG. My wife would not allow it. "You love 
that car. We dated in that car. We have too many memories associated with that 
car. Don't sell it - we get by." We did. And thus I have my car, my shop and a 
great wife. 

She jokes that most of our vacations involve a motor of some kind - vintage 
racing, steam trains, etc. But I do try to include things she likes in both 
our vacation plans and things I make in the shop. Most of our houses's 
furniture I have made, kitchen cabinets, etc. Now I am making baby furniture 
for grandchildren. And my wife will join me in the shop - staining furniture, 
sanding between coats of polyurethane, etc. 

So, I think I just got lucky. And I make sure she knows that...

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

From ericm at lne.com  Fri Nov  9 11:49:13 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:49:13 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
In-Reply-To: <636286.43195.qm@web506.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
	<636286.43195.qm@web506.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071109184913.GI9661@slack.lne.com>

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 10:30:45AM -0800, Shannah Miller wrote:
> 
> A  cheerful "Hi Sweetie" when you see her feet
> appear can go a long way.  :)

Yea.  I always make sure to do that.  Well, if I am in the middle of
wrestling with the carbs on her bike, it might be "#&**&^$ carbs won't
*&%*&% go on!"  But I'll say something. :-)

I'm happy to explain what I'm working on, at least until
I get the glazed eyes look that says she's not as into it as I am.
She's a decent wrench and sometimes makes good suggestions
when I am stuck, which I greatly appreciate.

As far as money goes, we split stuff up into ours, hers and mine.
I don't tell her what to do with hers and she doesn't tell me
what to do with mine.  It works for us.  We've been together for 16
years and we still alternate who pays for 'dates'.


Eric

From drew at pixar.com  Fri Nov  9 11:53:51 2007
From: drew at pixar.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:53:51 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
In-Reply-To: <636286.43195.qm@web506.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <636286.43195.qm@web506.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4734ACBF.8060907@pixar.com>

Eric,

Not that I feel that I'm an expert or anything but my wife
and I have been married for 36 years (high school sweethearts
an all that) so I guess we're doing something right. I think
I got lucky when I married her because she's always been there
with me when I'm doing something. When I was wrenching on the
race car she was rubbing the tire marks off and waxing. When
I'm in the field trying to get my English Setter to point she's
there enjoying the walk and the scenery. From reading your
mails over the years I think you should be looking for a pretty
independent woman who has her own interests. If those interests
overlay with yours then so much the better. A couple of reasons
I'm saying this are that I think you live in a somewhat isolated
area on a farm and that you're away for extended lengths of
time doing whatever is is you do with the military. Because
of this I think she's going to have to have something to keep
her busy at times.

It might be good if some of the things she's interested in could
be done in roughly the same physical area as the things you're
interested in. For example if she's interested in throwing pots
then having her wheel and kiln in or adjacent to your shop might
be nice. That way you both could be together doing what you like
but not having to entertain each other.

I would think that if the current love of your life is needy
and depends on you a lot then that's a danger sign.

Just my thoughts,
Drew

BTW since I'm writing why the change in nickname from Inch to
Moose? Something grow in size?


-- 
Drew Rogge
drew at pixar.com

From shannah at pobox.com  Fri Nov  9 12:06:09 2007
From: shannah at pobox.com (Shannah Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:06:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice (part 2 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071109132059.00adc1f0@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <356889.12141.qm@web511.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Blair" <jblair1948 at cox.net> wrote:

> Everyone I talk to, or shows on TV I've watched, say
> it's communications!!!!  
> But you'll find that there are some things you just
> can't talk about.  

I have only been married for 16 years, but
I think this is really true.  No matter how
much Ray and I try to discuss certain things,
we never seem to really understand each other.
We just do not discuss silverware, or tomatoes.

Later on in the email, you talk about flexibility,
John, and I think this is key.  This is not the
same as being passive, though.  I think that one
has to be assertive enough to discuss these things,
but easygoing enough to be able to find a win/win
solution, rather than having to have it their way.

Shannah

From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Fri Nov  9 13:19:19 2007
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:19:19 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with 1/2 HP motor?
Message-ID: <20071109201919.GA70575@sackheads.org>

A couple years ago I replaced my garage door opener and since the motor in
the old one was still functional, I set it aside with the idea of using
it for some future project.  I found it again this week while cleaning out 
the garage.  It's rated at 1/2HP, 1500 RPM.  I don't know the motor's rated 
duty cycle, however.

I'm open to ideas for potential shop or yard projects using this motor.

Here are a few ideas I've jotted down:

1) Powering an exhaust fan.  I already have one and 1/2HP is probably
   overkill anyway and the duty cycle might come into play.
2) Makeshift wood lathe.  Seems dangerous and I don't have much interest 
   in wood turning anyway so this is probably a non-starter.
3) Stationary disc or drum sander.  Hmm.  Could be useful.

Any other ideas?


Jimmie

From eric at megageek.com  Fri Nov  9 13:29:11 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:29:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
Message-ID: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>

WOW!  A ton of great advice!

First, I can't believe how many people here are married 30+ years.  Maybe
it has something to do with the mindset of a person that loves cars and
tools.  Maybe we learn to cherish the things in the world that are special
to us (old cars, old, uh, I mean, our women.)  8>)

Just so you all know, I'm only 36 years old as of last month.  To think
that many of you have been married longer than Ibve been alive!  Wow!

As for me, I've learned that both people in a relationship need their own
time to do their things and get away from each other for awhile.  My only
worry is the stuff she loves to do, I love also.  The only thing that we
don't have in common is my DIY habit.  Although she seems genuinely
impressed when I do a job.  (She grew up in NYC and has never touched a
wrenched herself.  City folk just call other people and pay them to fix
things.)

She just moved into a new building in the city and the first I did was
"fix" a bunch of stuff in the apartment with nothing more than my
leatherman.  She was so impressed to see a refrigerator door moved, windows
unlocked (they only open a small amount), lights hung, switches fixed, and
a ton of other minor things get done in mere minutes.

I only worry that at some point this many not impress her any more.  I just
bought a wood lathe and I'm slowly teaching myself how to use it.
Normally, if Ibm working on a project, I make something for her.  That way
I learn and she gets a keepsake.

If this works out, I'm inviting all of you to the wedding!  8>)

And Drew, as for why the nickname changed.  I was tried of explaining the
"Inch" story, and people remember "Moose" much better.  (I'm a pretty big
guy.)

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From drew at pixar.com  Fri Nov  9 13:44:12 2007
From: drew at pixar.com (Drew Rogge)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:44:12 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4734C69C.8040106@pixar.com>

Well, it looks like you may have to explain the Inch story one more
time now :-)

eric at megageek.com wrote:
[snip]
> And Drew, as for why the nickname changed.  I was tried of explaining the
> "Inch" story, and people remember "Moose" much better.  (I'm a pretty big
> guy.)
> 


-- 
Drew Rogge
drew at pixar.com

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Fri Nov  9 13:44:48 2007
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:44:48 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c82311$5f5373e0$8500a8c0@CT>

INCH???  Beware there may be other problems more serious than the garage!!




-------------------------------------------- :) ------------------
And Drew, as for why the nickname changed.  I was tried of explaining the
"Inch" story, and people remember "Moose" much better.  (I'm a pretty big
guy.)

Moose

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Nov  9 13:52:39 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:52:39 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <11ec01c82312$775c2490$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Any yes, I know that bif she really loves me, shebll
> understand.b  Ibm just
> looking for the gems of wisdoms from everyone there thatbs
> been there.

Not sure that this counts as a gem of wisdom; but what my late wife used to
say was that she would much rather have me in the garage(shop) than on a
barstool somewhere !

Randall

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Nov  9 14:14:48 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:14:48 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with 1/2 HP motor?
In-Reply-To: <20071109201919.GA70575@sackheads.org>
References: <20071109201919.GA70575@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <4734CDC8.8040104@dimebank.com>

Jimmie Mayfield wrote:
> A couple years ago I replaced my garage door opener and since the motor in
> the old one was still functional, I set it aside with the idea of using
> it for some future project.  I found it again this week while cleaning out 
> the garage.  It's rated at 1/2HP, 1500 RPM.  I don't know the motor's rated 
> duty cycle, however.

That's a good size and the perfect speed for a buffing wheel.

From trevor at boicey.com  Fri Nov  9 15:23:44 2007
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:23:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
> WOW!  A ton of great advice!
> 
> First, I can't believe how many people here are married 30+ years.

   I've only been married 8 years... but...

   My take on this is that getting married doesn't affect your shop time 
NEARLY as much as having kids.

   I got a lot of shop time when we were first married, because she had 
friends and hobbies and we enjoyed our own things and still had lots of 
together time.

   Once you have kids though, when you are in the garage, she isn't 
inside reading a nice book, she's got the kids to herself...

   If you follow my cars and projects, they don't end when I got 
married, they end when we had kids!

   (but also when we had kids I sort of got more into boats, so that 
limited my car tinkering excitement a fair bit as well...)

From shochschild at att.net  Fri Nov  9 19:48:32 2007
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:48:32 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
In-Reply-To: <4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
	<4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <3168AD62D4064BD4A653BC94C606CABE@Toshiba>

>> WOW!  A ton of great advice!
>>
>> First, I can't believe how many people here are married 30+ years.

Not to be a big downer, but I got divorced after 17 long years.  Our 
hobbies, sports, and projects became a huge divisive issue once we were no 
longer primarily parental units.  Ultimately I decided that I would rather 
do what I wanted to do than be married to her.

I tried to get her involved.  For example, our son and I loved racing, and 
we went to a bunch of races, 12 of 15 IRL races one year, but she was not 
interested.  When I decided to start racing myself, we decided that to be 
fair I needed to spend as much money on her as I did on racing.  That year I 
finished 7th in the region, and my mortgage was my third largest expense, 
after my 944 and all the jewelry I bought her.

But I wasn't interested in her activities either.  A former tennis pro, she 
adjusted by becoming a tennis wife; if the sun was shining, she was at the 
club.  She won level 5 singles, doubles, and mixed doubles club 
championships one year, but I never went to a single of her matches.  I 
doubt I could keep score at a tennis match.  Stick and ball sports, 
ptooey...

As someone else mentioned, there were 15 years or so where our commitments 
to our interests were governed by the continual care our son required.  We 
were blessed to have a son who wanted to be with each of us, so he went to 
races with me, and went to the club with her.  But once he was able to take 
care of his schedule, we were free to get back into our passions once again, 
and very quickly we grew apart.

If I could have watched some tennis, and if she would have watched some 
racing, things might have turned out differently, but frankly, I doubt 
either one of us could have even faked it.  I think we did the right thing 
when we got married and had our son, but I also think we did the right thing 
to split up once our son grew up.  He is a great kid, a junior in Mechanical 
Engineering, and I couldn't be prouder or happier with how he turned out.

So as a counter example which supports the same advice everyone else has 
given, make sure you are interested in each other's lives, not just because 
they are your partner, but because you are interested in what they are too. 
Does she like to do any kind of hobby/craft/creative thing?  If she doesn't 
'have the making things bug', she will begrudge you everything you do that 
can't be spun as frugal, or handy, or helpful.  And btw, you shouldn't have 
fixed everything at once in her apt., you should have spread it out to give 
it more brownie point/special favor value.

[I am also an inveterate collector, but she didn't collect anything (but 
cash).  This was a huge issue, because I wanted to buy things, and she saw 
them as taking up space and being a silly waste of time and energy.  This is 
not exactly the same thing, but very similar.  Just as we on this list might 
be seen as eccentric, collectors are not understood by people who don't 
collect anything, either.]

FWIW, I have been dating a kind and empathetic woman for 4 years now, and we 
go to auctions on dates, she makes stained glass, sews, and is an avid scrap 
booker.  We take cooking classes, go to art galleries, and last year she had 
a bunch of fun at the NHRA drags.  She is happy to have me in my garage 
working on my cars, while she is at her house doing stuff, and we are very 
happy together.

Good luck!

P.S. Do you live in a community property state?

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Nov  9 20:41:24 2007
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (fred thomas)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:41:24 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
	<4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <006201c8234b$91999520$3a2d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

Listers, to be involved in the car hobby you must, I repeat =MUST= have the 
entire "Family" involved. I was extremely lucky when my wife of 34 years 
became involved in the addiction of LBC ownership, her very first act was to 
move my bed into the middle of the garage. .  :)  :)  "FT" 

From shochschild at att.net  Fri Nov  9 20:41:57 2007
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 21:41:57 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with 1/2 HP motor?
In-Reply-To: <20071109201919.GA70575@sackheads.org>
References: <20071109201919.GA70575@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <F204FCE9D8634C089C74334396BE69EC@Toshiba>

I have the same motor, hanging onto it in hopes of someday making a power 
hacksaw.  Anybody done this, or have a favorite approach?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jimmie Mayfield" <mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 2:19 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] What to do with 1/2 HP motor?


>A couple years ago I replaced my garage door opener and since the motor in
> the old one was still functional, I set it aside with the idea of using
> it for some future project.  I found it again this week while cleaning out
> the garage.  It's rated at 1/2HP, 1500 RPM.  I don't know the motor's 
> rated
> duty cycle, however.
>
> I'm open to ideas for potential shop or yard projects using this motor.
>
> Here are a few ideas I've jotted down:
>
> 1) Powering an exhaust fan.  I already have one and 1/2HP is probably
>   overkill anyway and the duty cycle might come into play.
> 2) Makeshift wood lathe.  Seems dangerous and I don't have much interest
>   in wood turning anyway so this is probably a non-starter.
> 3) Stationary disc or drum sander.  Hmm.  Could be useful.
>
> Any other ideas?
>
>
> Jimmie
> _______________________________________________
> shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk 

From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net  Fri Nov  9 21:12:29 2007
From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:12:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice
References: <3.0.5.32.20071109132059.00adf788@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <015b01c8234f$e951cd60$3a2d7247@fred8kwiskhcfu>

My wifes favorite comment on the "garage" is :: Much better than a bar stool 
and lip stick on the collar.  :) :) "FT" 

From bill at gingerich.us  Fri Nov  9 21:39:40 2007
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:39:40 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c82353$b5a38770$8ba5c6d8@shack2>

I'll keep my comments brief, as most of the ideas have already been voiced.
This relationship stuff is a 2 way street.  Neither party has sole
responsibility for communication, accommodation, and compromise in any
relationship.  If you haven't already, you and she need to have some serious
discussions about each of your interests and hobbies.  If she isn't willing
to give you some space for your interests, and vice versa, the relationship
is going to be in trouble before you know it.  Don't wait to start talking.

My wife of 18 years (second marriage for us both) did MG's in her first
marriage, so she knows the allure of LBC's.  She understands my Triumphs are
my therapy, and, for the most part, lets me do my thing.  I do make a point
of communicating with her to make sure I'm not neglecting something she
considers important.  She does the same.  She knows where to find me, helps
me when I ask, and enjoys riding in the cars.  In turn, I know she'll be in
her sewing/craft room, help her when she asks, and enjoy the fruits of her
interests.  It seems to work for us.

Bill Gingerich
Oklahoma

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Nov  9 23:39:00 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:39:00 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
In-Reply-To: <4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
	<4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <009501c82364$61456a20$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Moose,

Relationships slow down your shop time, kids do too.  Everything will change
somewhat, but if it's the right relationship, it's worth it because most of
the changes are for the better.

I've been married 18 years, kids 12 and 14, and my Triumph TR8 was up on
jack stands for 2.5 years, while I completed a few months work; but that's
ok.  It's worth it.

I saw finances mentioned.  We are a one check book house.  Everything is
ours; no mine or yours.  The more I talk with folks the more I find this is
the exception, rather than the rule, but I think it's one more tie that
helps keep our relationship together.  The biggest key is communication.  If
you can talk about anything with each other, you will make it work.  My wife
is my best friend.

Jack

From cak at dimebank.com  Fri Nov  9 16:02:57 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:02:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
In-Reply-To: <4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
	<4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com>
Message-ID: <4734E721.1050602@dimebank.com>

A lot of good advice has been dispensed. Let me see if I can add 
something useful!

I've observed some traits about myself that I generalize to many guys, 
but I'm going to try to just say what I have learned about myself. If 
the shoe fits, go for it.

I've in several serious, long-term relationships. One ended in divorce 
after four years, one ended with her swinging her fist at me after three 
years (I was glad that she didn't pull a knife - she was *pissed*). The 
current one has been going on for 16 years and we're still insanely 
happy together - and a big part of that is because of what we learned in 
previous relationships (she'd been in several >5-year relationships - 
but she managed the end better and still talks to those guys :-)

0. My job is to please/care for/provide for her.
This is an observation that pretty much colors everything else; I think 
it's true for most (American) men I know, but I'm trying not to 
generalize. I'm supposed to be the provider, and I'm happiest when I'm 
making her happy. If what it takes for her to be happy is *not* 
something I enjoy doing, then there's going to be trouble. This 
observation colors all the rest.

1. Don't be a chameleon
I found that, in the early days of a relationship, I was so enamoured 
with her that I would ignore/set aside personal interests in order to do 
things together. I'd change behaviours or patterns. I'd give up favored 
activities. She might do the same, or not.

That only lasts for a while. At some point, I want to do the things I 
haven't been, and then there may be trouble. Better to be up front about 
those things.

2. You're not going to change, and neither is she.
Repeat after me.

3. When money is a problem, all your problems are money problems.
My divorce was, fundamentally, over money problems. We had very very 
very different outlooks on money - how to handle it, where to spend it, 
how much to save, how much to borrow. We had agreed early on to combine 
our finances, and I couldn't figure a way to back out. It was a disaster 
and a constant struggle. See lesson 2.

After that, I resolved to keep finances separate. Pat & I split things 
into hers, mine and ours - before we moved in together, it was strictly 
split and we "went Dutch" for pretty much everything. Now that we have 
committed mortgage, we have a house account into which we both dump 
money every paycheck, and a joint credit card. For a long time, the 
joint contribution was basically even; I got a big raise recently and am 
starting to put in more - my choice. Everything that's left over is 
personal, private, and doesn't need discussion.

This is really great. I mean, how can you buy your partner an 
extravagant gift if you're taking it out of the grocery money? It also 
helps that we have a very similar sense of what's in the "just do it" 
range vs what should be discussed before hand.

4. It helps if she shares your passions.
I was a moderately hard-core cyclist when we met, and continued to ride. 
We tried riding together a few times and she didn't really enjoy it as 
much as I do. I had been getting burned out, and instead of fighting it, 
decided to let it go - I didn't really like being away for half the 
weekend without her. But it was totally my decision - at that point (and 
to this day) riding wasn't that overwhelming.

Climbing, on the other hand, is - I often go away for days or sometimes 
weeks on a mountaineering expedition, and she's OK with that. She 
understands my passion for the mountains and we go rock climbing 
together - but she doesn't like playing in the snow or at altitude.

She, on the other hand, need the ocean. I enjoy going to the beach or 
doing shipboard things from time to time, and try to arrange them (we're 
headed off to a coastal rental next weekend). But sometimes she just 
takes off and drives to the coast on her own.

It helps a whole lot that we're both gearheads. She had been part owner 
of a couple of Ferraris in a previous relationship and had spent a lot 
of time scouring northern California for pre-55 VW Bugs in another. She 
was happy to help me wrench on the Triumphs, and was the impetus for 
buying a Morris. We were SCCA corner workers together for 10 years. This 
wasn't just luck:

5. Talk. Talk some more. Keep talking.
We'd both been through enough, and were old enough, and were (probably) 
resigned enough about relationship failure, that we weren't interested 
in playing games just to not be alone. We were very up front about our 
interests and the lessons we'd learned. It so happened that we had a lot 
of overlap; if it hadn't, I don't think the relationship would have 
lasted (other than a friendship) after the initial heat died down.

That "old enough" part continues to pay off - we (luckily) both have a 
similar sense of what is "small stuff", and seem very willing to just 
let stuff go by rather than spending weeks fighting about it. It helps 
hugely that we are in agreement about the basic issues, and about what's 
"fair". Many things are settled internally just because "it wouldn't be 
fair".

I used to sometimes get extremely frustrated doing car work, and would 
snap at her when she came into my view and asked questions. That wasn't 
OK, and it wasn't fair, and she let me know it. I felt badly about it 
anyway. We finally figured out that I get that way when I don't eat 
often enough! But if we hadn't been able to talk about it, one or the 
other of us would have just been pissed and sulky and "the cars" would 
have been blamed.

More recently, I've wandered into a hobby that she doesn't really share 
(amateur radio). She doesn't much mind that I'm out in the garage 
working on a radio, or sitting at my desk with the headphones on. I 
spend the occasional contest weekend sitting there for 36 out of 48 
hours, not doing laundry or other chores. That's OK with her - and I 
make sure that I catch up on stuff at other times. "Fair" really helps. 
She does stuff by herself, too. As someone else said, it's better to 
know that I'm in the garage instead of sitting in some bar.

Again, I feel very lucky to have found Pat and had it work out so well. 
Some of that is because I am trainable and learned from my mistakes, but 
some of it, I'm sure, was just dumb luck, and being at the right dinner 
party (where we met).

From cak at dimebank.com  Sat Nov 10 09:19:56 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:19:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <4734E721.1050602@dimebank.com>
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
	<4734DDF0.2070701@boicey.com> <4734E721.1050602@dimebank.com>
Message-ID: <4735DA2C.4080204@dimebank.com>

> 0. My job is to please/care for/provide for her.
> This is an observation that pretty much colors everything else; I think 
> it's true for most (American) men I know, but I'm trying not to 
> generalize. I'm supposed to be the provider, and I'm happiest when I'm 
> making her happy. If what it takes for her to be happy is *not* 
> something I enjoy doing, then there's going to be trouble. This 
> observation colors all the rest.

I realized after I sent this that this statement is ambiguous. I should 
have prefaced it with "I'm wired to think that" ... that is, it's an 
internal expectation. I don't really know the origins - but the way
I normally act and think is consistent with that ... like it or not.

It so happens that I've run into a lot of other guys who are wired this 
way, too :-)

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Sat Nov 10 20:30:21 2007
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (JAMES STONE)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:30:21 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground?
Message-ID: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>

I replaced a porch light today and discovered that it was only wired with 14-2
wire without a ground.  Since the light pole is set in concrete and buried in
the ground, is it grounded?  Just curious.

_________________________________________________________________
Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Sat Nov 10 20:51:42 2007
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:51:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground?
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47367C4E.3090606@comcast.net>

I wouldn't count on it.  A real ground has a long copper rod driven in to 
provide a low-resistance attachment to the earth.  The concrete is a good 
insulator, and unless the pole extends a considerable distance below the 
concrete and is not corroded, the fixture is not grounded.  At least not enough 
to be considered a safety ground.

Donald.

JAMES STONE wrote:
> I replaced a porch light today and discovered that it was only wired with 14-2
> wire without a ground.  Since the light pole is set in concrete and buried in
> the ground, is it grounded?  Just curious.

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Sat Nov 10 20:53:20 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:53:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground?
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47367CB0.5090408@hornesystemstx.com>

James,

Possibly. It depends on what soil you have. If it is sand, then it is 
not grounded well, but if it is clay that stays somewhat moist, then 
yes, it is grounded. Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. If you are 
are concerned, add a GFCI at the house to monitor that circuit.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake JAMES STONE:
> I replaced a porch light today and discovered that it was only wired with 14-2
> wire without a ground.  Since the light pole is set in concrete and buried in
> the ground, is it grounded?  Just curious.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Nov 11 09:11:10 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:11:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground?
In-Reply-To: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4737299E.6060300@xxiii.com>

JAMES STONE wrote:
> I replaced a porch light today and discovered that it was only wired with 14-2
> wire without a ground.  Since the light pole is set in concrete and buried in
> the ground, is it grounded?  Just curious.

I doubt it.  You might be able to disconnect the neutral side and stick 
an am-meter between it and the fixture and see how much current flows, 
or if a break/fuse pops.  On 2nd thought, I wouldn't know how to 
interpret the results and you might damage yourself or the wiring.

You can supposedly hook up a GFCI breaker to protect a 2-wire circuit, 
but I don't know details on how to do it.

   -Wayne

From cavanadd at verizon.net  Sun Nov 11 14:52:24 2007
From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:52:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
In-Reply-To: <0JQW00F508T4DO90@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>
	<1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071111134917.01502898@incoming.verizon.net>

Now that the heating season is starting up I'm thinking about an 
electrostatic filter for the furnace.  Any info?  It would be going into a 
conventional forced air propane furnace system, no A/C, one story house 
with the ducts in the floor and the return in the attic.  Furnace is in the 
garage.  The house is about 2500 sq ft, and we also use a wood stove for 
supplemental heat when it's in the 30s or lower outside. Two big indoor 
dogs, no kids, no huge allergy issues, just looking for something that will 
keep the place cleaner.

Thanks

Dave C
Suburban Machias, WA

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Sun Nov 11 16:47:58 2007
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:47:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding door locks
Message-ID: <C9C37D47-C10D-4202-A1EE-7A82DFF70C88@trebelhorn.com>

I have a sliding glass patio door.

The lock that was in it broke last week -- there's a spot where a  
tension coil spring that's supposed to slide/pivot over a bar, and  
the spring broke.

Home Depot/Lowes have lock/handle sets that are even crappier than  
the one that broke.

Does anybody on the list have a recommendation -- a brand or a store  
-- for a latch that's decently made?

Matt

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Sun Nov 11 17:08:23 2007
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:08:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071111134917.01502898@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <000001c824c0$277f6400$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>

Our previous house had forced air heat with a Honeywell Electronic Air
Cleaner. I recommend it highly. Where now we battle dust daily (or should)
in the old place we only needed to dust if a mother-in-law was coming for a
visit.  The cells are nasty to clean, try running them through the
dishwasher, hung from the underside of the top rack.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From cak at dimebank.com  Sun Nov 11 17:15:43 2007
From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:15:43 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
In-Reply-To: <000001c824c0$277f6400$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
References: <000001c824c0$277f6400$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <47379B2F.7000004@dimebank.com>

Bob Kegel wrote:
> Our previous house had forced air heat with a Honeywell Electronic Air
> Cleaner. I recommend it highly. Where now we battle dust daily (or should)
> in the old place we only needed to dust if a mother-in-law was coming for a
> visit.  The cells are nasty to clean, try running them through the
> dishwasher, hung from the underside of the top rack.

Boy does that bring back memories - I grew up with one of those. It was 
my job to clean the suckers. We had a special tub (from Honeywell) for 
the job - I don't remember it being particularly horrible, just 
something of a nuisance.

In our current house, we just have a "normal" paper filter slot. I've 
been buying the 3M Filtrete "micro allergen reduction" or "maximum 
allergen reduction" 1 inch filters. Change every three months.

We don't find that we have to dust very often in winter (when the 
furnace is running). In summer, when the furnace is off and the windows 
are open ... well, it's a different story then.

Best,
chris

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Sun Nov 11 17:44:02 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:44:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding door locks
In-Reply-To: <C9C37D47-C10D-4202-A1EE-7A82DFF70C88@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071111194402.00baad58@pop.east.cox.net>

At 06:47 PM 11/11/2007 -0500, Matt Trebelhorn wrote:

>The lock that was in it broke last week -- there's a spot where a  
>tension coil spring that's supposed to slide/pivot over a bar, and  
>the spring broke.....

>Does anybody on the list have a recommendation -- a brand or a store  
>-- for a latch that's decently made?

Matt,

Check your Yellow Pages for Lock smiths.  I had an interesting discussion
about this the other day with my neighbor who is a lock smith.  I was talking
about how cheap the Quik Set door knobs are.  The mechanism is not 1/2 
plastic.  They don't last 7 yrs.  He agreeded, and said that they sell
better ones, but at one hell-of-a lot higher price.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Sun Nov 11 18:11:54 2007
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:11:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding door locks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071111194402.00baad58@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20071111194402.00baad58@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <6D3AED67-2F99-4CD1-912E-7B0A160E0AB8@trebelhorn.com>

There's a neat little lock shop down the street -- I'll give him a try.

I went in to get a key made, and I looked at the racks of blanks on  
the wall.  The one thing that stuck in my mind was a peg marked  
"Borgward" -- with three or four blanks hanging there, waiting...

I guess I mentally filed that place as "car parts store", though.   
Thanks for jogging the grey matter!

Matt

On 11 Nov, 2007, at 7:44 PM, John T. Blair wrote:

> At 06:47 PM 11/11/2007 -0500, Matt Trebelhorn wrote:
>
>> The lock that was in it broke last week -- there's a spot where a
>> tension coil spring that's supposed to slide/pivot over a bar, and
>> the spring broke.....
>
>> Does anybody on the list have a recommendation -- a brand or a store
>> -- for a latch that's decently made?
>
> Matt,
>
> Check your Yellow Pages for Lock smiths.  I had an interesting  
> discussion
> about this the other day with my neighbor who is a lock smith.  I  
> was talking
> about how cheap the Quik Set door knobs are.  The mechanism is not 1/2
> plastic.  They don't last 7 yrs.  He agreeded, and said that they sell
> better ones, but at one hell-of-a lot higher price.
>
> John
>
>
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
> Va. Beach, Va
> Phone:  (757) 495-8229
>
>           48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
>      75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
>                        65 Rambler Classic
>
> Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
> Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org
>
> If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
> If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From doug at dougbraun.com  Sun Nov 11 18:21:04 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:21:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
In-Reply-To: <000001c824c0$277f6400$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <705441.24280.qm@web610.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm wondering:  To get the full cleanliness benefit of
these filters, do you have to leave the furnace blower
running all the time and keep the doors and windows
shut? 

I would like something to reduce dust, but most of the
time here in NJ it is neither so cold that the heat is
continuously on, nor so hot that the AC is always on,
and we often have some windows open and maybe the
whole-house fan running.  

Doug


--- Bob Kegel <bobkegel at seanet.com> wrote:

> Our previous house had forced air heat with a
> Honeywell Electronic Air
> Cleaner. I recommend it highly. Where now we battle
> dust daily (or should)
> in the old place we only needed to dust if a
> mother-in-law was coming for a
> visit.  

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Sun Nov 11 18:28:11 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:28:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on Dryway sanding / cleanup
Message-ID: <4737AC2B.8020207@xxiii.com>

Hey Guys....

I'm prep'ing a room to paint for the first time since it was built.  The 
drywall in this room and several others is "nappy" -- there seem to be 
fibers from the cardboard facing or somewhere else that were raked up 
and stick through the primer and paint.

The wife and I have been attacking this for two days with an electric 
sander to knock down the fuzzies, and clean up some of the mud joints. 
This is going slowly and making a HELLUVA mess.

Questions;
* Any ideas what would cause nappy drywall?  Moisture exposure perhaps?

* Any better methods for sanding?  Since we're starting with a painted 
surface, I don't think the "screen" type abrasive cloths I've seen sold 
for drywall work would work well.

* Any suggestions on cleanup?  The vac' is still leaving all kinds of 
crap behind.  I'm thinking maybe tack-cloths like the body-work guys use?

   -Thanks for any input!
       Wayne

From jibjib at att.net  Sun Nov 11 18:48:41 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:48:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071111134917.01502898@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC><1BFD0D10FEF04DAA81288792CDC05032@OwnerPC>
	<5.0.0.25.2.20071111134917.01502898@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <00c701c824ce$27a496e0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Dave C wrote:
Now that the heating season is starting up I'm thinking about an
electrostatic filter for the furnace.  Any info?  It would be going into a
conventional forced air propane furnace system, no A/C, one story house with
the ducts in the floor and the return in the attic.  Furnace is in the
garage.  The house is about 2500 sq ft, and we also use a wood stove for
supplemental heat when it's in the 30s or lower outside. Two big indoor
dogs, no kids, no huge allergy issues, just looking for something that will
keep the place cleaner.



Dave, living in WA, without A/C (us too) you are either heating or have the
windows open; there's not much in between <sigh>.  When they are open, all
bets are off.  Fortunately, we have few flying insects and fairly clean air,
so leaving them open is a great option.  When they are close, a good filter
will do an ok job.  

What I do is to use a standard cheapo filter, followed by a high allergen
(very fine) filter, changing the cheapo twice as often as the expensive
filter to keep the filter costs reasonable.  The cheapo grabs the big chunks
and keeps the fine (expensive) filter from clogging as quickly.  We use the
high filtration filter for cleanliness, not allergies. I was initially
concerned about the pressure drop (load on the fan) of two filters in-line,
but checked it with a Magnehelic DP gage and deemed it fine, but don't
recall what it was any more.  The dust is no horrible, once we shut the
windows, but not nearly as good as homes I've owned with hot water baseboard
heat.

I am following this thread too, as we are forced air natural gas, and if the
electrostatic is a winner, I'll be on board too.

Jack
Covington, WA
SE King County

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Sun Nov 11 22:54:41 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:54:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
In-Reply-To: <705441.24280.qm@web610.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071112055441.BIJP29175.mta16.adelphia.net@randall>

> I'm wondering:  To get the full cleanliness benefit of these 
> filters, do you have to leave the furnace blower running all 
> the time and keep the doors and windows shut? 

To get the *full benefit, yes.  But the partial benefit is still pretty
nice.  Half the dust & dirt is still better than all of it.

Not to mention mold spores, smoke, pollen, etc.

Randall

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Mon Nov 12 06:21:14 2007
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (JAMES STONE)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:21:14 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground?
In-Reply-To: <4737299E.6060300@xxiii.com>
References: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
	<4737299E.6060300@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <BAY126-W34094E418B59A18836AD8BCC870@phx.gbl>

Thanks guys.  I didn't think it would work, but was curious.

> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:11:10 -0500
> From: wmc_st at xxiii.com
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground?
>
> JAMES STONE wrote:
> > I replaced a porch light today and discovered that it was only wired with
14-2
> > wire without a ground.  Since the light pole is set in concrete and buried
in
> > the ground, is it grounded?  Just curious.
>
> I doubt it.  You might be able to disconnect the neutral side and stick
> an am-meter between it and the fixture and see how much current flows,
> or if a break/fuse pops.  On 2nd thought, I wouldn't know how to
> interpret the results and you might damage yourself or the wiring.
>
> You can supposedly hook up a GFCI breaker to protect a 2-wire circuit,
> but I don't know details on how to do it.
>
>    -Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> jandkstone99 at msn.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook  together at last.  Get it
now.
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971
033

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Mon Nov 12 07:41:23 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:41:23 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related, really!)
In-Reply-To: <11ec01c82312$775c2490$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
	<11ec01c82312$775c2490$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <026801c8253a$199e8850$4cdb98f0$@mele@usermail.com>

<<Not sure that this counts as a gem of wisdom; but what my late wife used
to
say was that she would much rather have me in the garage(shop) than on a
barstool somewhere !>>

Brings back the memory of my first wife yelling in despair: "I'm married to
a man who live is the basement!"  I suspect she's out looking for someone
who lives in a bar now.

What I've learned between first and second marriages...my first didn't
really understand the idea of a hobby; I recall that she had "several" when
we were dating, but the real clue is that none lasted more than a few
months.  Probably a predictor of our relationship as well.
My second wife is a life-long gardener.  Her kids are in late 20's; mine are
16 and 24...so "child rearing" is coming to a close.  Means we both get to
work together and play with our hobbies more than when we had a lot of
child-related "chores".  We do our best to help and be involved in each
other's projects...makes it more fun for lots of reasons.  At the end of
each little project, or the day's work on a big project, each of us makes
sure to go and admire the work of the other...

HTH

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Nov 12 08:20:49 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:20:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding door locks
Message-ID: <OF462F171A.50F855F4-ON85257391.00544DC2-85257391.00544DC5@mail.megageek.com>

Matt, this may sound stupid, but what about a big wood dowel to fit in the
rail of the door.  Long enough that the door can't be opened with it in
there.

It was my understanding that most people used them instead of the locks on
slider door, as they are notoriously cheap.


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Nov 12 08:22:30 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:22:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on Dryway sanding / cleanup
Message-ID: <OF7C9CBE81.5F466E78-ON85257391.00547520-85257391.00547523@mail.megageek.com>

Wayne asks...

>Any better methods for sanding?  Since we're starting with a painted
>surface, I don't think the "screen" type abrasive cloths I've seen sold
>for drywall work would work well.

Have you tried an electric razor?  8>)

Seriosuly, what are the fibers from?  Is it the paper of the sheet rock or
an old wallpaper?


Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Nov 12 08:39:43 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:39:43 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on Dryway sanding / cleanup
In-Reply-To: <OF7C9CBE81.5F466E78-ON85257391.00547520-85257391.00547523@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7C9CBE81.5F466E78-ON85257391.00547520-85257391.00547523@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <473873BF.4090805@xxiii.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
>> Any better methods for sanding?  Since we're starting with a painted
>> surface, I don't think the "screen" type abrasive cloths I've seen sold
>> for drywall work would work well.
> 
> Have you tried an electric razor?  8>)

Haha.... no have not.  I think they're a little too coarse for that. 
The wife has some  little battery powered shaver for removing lint-piles 
from sweaters, but also not up to the task.

> Seriosuly, what are the fibers from?  Is it the paper of the sheet rock or
> an old wallpaper?

That's what I'm not sure of.  I wish I had some way to contact the 
builder and ask him what the heck happened. It's like the bare drywall 
paper surface got wet, and someone took a wire brush to it  :(

    -Wayne

From mbarre at juno.com  Mon Nov 12 09:01:14 2007
From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:01:14 GMT
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on Dryway sanding / cleanup
Message-ID: <20071112.110114.29589.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com>

It may be more than you are looking to do, but I have seen some good results
with a textured surface...  Either a sprayed texture that is then knocked
down, or a patterned application where a trowel full of mud is applied with an
overlapping circular motion.
Matt

-- Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
eric at megageek.com wrote:
>> Any better methods for sanding?  Since we're starting with a painted
>> surface, I don't think the "screen" type abrasive cloths I've seen sold
>> for drywall work would work well.
>
> Have you tried an electric razor?  8>)

Haha.... no have not.  I think they're a little too coarse for that.
The wife has some  little battery powered shaver for removing lint-piles
from sweaters, but also not up to the task.

> Seriosuly, what are the fibers from?  Is it the paper of the sheet rock or
> an old wallpaper?

That's what I'm not sure of.  I wish I had some way to contact the
builder and ask him what the heck happened. It's like the bare drywall
paper surface got wet, and someone took a wire brush to it  :(

   -Wayne
_______________________________________________
mbarre at juno.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Nov 12 09:03:24 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:03:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Oil drain pan, part 2
In-Reply-To: <441250190711090918i731ff5d2odb4f58bdd6b46ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <441250190711090918i731ff5d2odb4f58bdd6b46ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711121102580.17396@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Bill Gilroy wrote:
> Seemed like plenty of people were happy with the Blitz pan that I have. 
> I took some time, made a new gasket for the drain plug and made sure 
> that I wiped out the inside of the spout after pouring the oil out of 
> the pan.  I don't get drip new so I guess I can live with this pan. 
> They should have put the spout at the bottom of the pan and angled it 
> upwards.

I solve this type of problem by finding a place to put the pan where I 
don't care that there might be a drip.

:-)

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 09:04:53 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:04:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on Dryway sanding / cleanup
In-Reply-To: <473873BF.4090805@xxiii.com>
References: <OF7C9CBE81.5F466E78-ON85257391.00547520-85257391.00547523@mail.megageek.com>
	<473873BF.4090805@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711120804t55b60278xee2f584c451d6a1d@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/12/07, Wayne <wmc_st at xxiii.com> wrote:
> eric at megageek.com wrote:
> >> Any better methods for sanding?  Since we're starting with a painted
> >> surface, I don't think the "screen" type abrasive cloths I've seen sold
> >> for drywall work would work well.
> >
> > Have you tried an electric razor?  8>)
>
> Haha.... no have not.  I think they're a little too coarse for that.
> The wife has some  little battery powered shaver for removing lint-piles
> from sweaters, but also not up to the task.
>
> > Seriosuly, what are the fibers from?  Is it the paper of the sheet rock or
> > an old wallpaper?
>
> That's what I'm not sure of.  I wish I had some way to contact the
> builder and ask him what the heck happened. It's like the bare drywall
> paper surface got wet, and someone took a wire brush to it  :(

How long are the exposed fibers.  If they're not terribly long, I'd
try a high build drywall primer.  The stuff I've used was called
something like "super-hide".  It could go on quite thick - two coats
were enough to hide the impressions left by someone writing on the
wall with a ball point pen.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Mon Nov 12 09:09:06 2007
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:09:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding door locks
In-Reply-To: <OF462F171A.50F855F4-ON85257391.00544DC2-85257391.00544DC5@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF462F171A.50F855F4-ON85257391.00544DC2-85257391.00544DC5@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <670C9025-4162-4877-9DA3-02792EC42ED5@trebelhorn.com>

That was the first thing I did when the lock broke -- found a piece  
of wood in the right dimension and dropped it into the track.

It may stay; but I'm looking at my options.

Matt

On 12 Nov, 2007, at 10:20 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote:

> Matt, this may sound stupid, but what about a big wood dowel to fit  
> in the
> rail of the door.  Long enough that the door can't be opened with  
> it in
> there.
>
> It was my understanding that most people used them instead of the  
> locks on
> slider door, as they are notoriously cheap.
>
>
> Moose
>
> "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>      Tori Amos

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Nov 12 09:10:03 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:10:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7F70B0B7.344D97D8-ON8525738E.00605F50-8525738E.00605F53@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711121104180.17396@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Ibm wondering if the married guys here want to give up some secrets to 
> avoiding issues like these in the future.

Have kids.  Neither of you will have time to do anything any more.*

> Any yes, I know that bif she really loves me, shebll understand.b 
> Ibm just looking for the gems of wisdoms from everyone there thatbs 
> been there.

Personally, I'm not as much of a believer in the whole "If you really love 
me, you'll ignore that I'm screwed up in your eyes" thing.  That works ok 
for stuff like leaving your underwear on the floor or the toilet seat up, 
but not so much for stuff that really matters.

Sounds to me like she'll either need to be ok working on her own projects 
by herself like you are, or she'll need to want to help out with yours 
(and you'll need to want that too).  Otherwise you're probably in for a 
hassle.  Maybe its a hassle worth going through with a good ending, but 
it'll be a hassle.

Mark

* Btw, even though I pretty much don't seem to have time to get anything 
done any more, I still am _extremely_ glad we had a kid!  :-)  The only 
thing I'd change would be to be rich, so that when I can't work on 
something in the garage, I can pay someone else to do it.  :-)

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 09:12:21 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:12:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding door locks
In-Reply-To: <OF462F171A.50F855F4-ON85257391.00544DC2-85257391.00544DC5@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF462F171A.50F855F4-ON85257391.00544DC2-85257391.00544DC5@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711120812y52271001l67bedc56f81abce9@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/12/07, eric at megageek.com <eric at megageek.com> wrote:
> Matt, this may sound stupid, but what about a big wood dowel to fit in the
> rail of the door.  Long enough that the door can't be opened with it in
> there.
>
> It was my understanding that most people used them instead of the locks on
> slider door, as they are notoriously cheap.

Lots of sliding doors rely on the door latch to make good seal.  With
out it, there are likely to be big air leaks around it.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Nov 12 09:23:51 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:23:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
In-Reply-To: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFAB014DBB.471358A9-ON8525738E.007088F8-8525738E.007088FD@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711121120200.17396@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> I only worry that at some point this many not impress her any more.  I 
> just bought a wood lathe and I'm slowly teaching myself how to use it. 
> Normally, if Ibm working on a project, I make something for her.  That 
> way I learn and she gets a keepsake.

So here's my suggestion (I've only been married for three years.  But I'm 
37, so I'm working at a disadvantage to some of the other folks 
responding... :-)...

Anyway, instead of making her something with the lathe (which is nice, 
don't get me wrong), learn to use it _with_ her.  Take a class together, 
work on stuff together, or whatever. (If, of course, she wants to do it).

If she's never turned a screwdriver, that might mean that you'll be 
spending way more time going slower than you want to, but you might have 
fun teaching the super basics and seeing a totally fresh viewpoint.

Mark

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 12 09:32:27 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:32:27 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on Dryway sanding / cleanup
References: <OF7C9CBE81.5F466E78-ON85257391.00547520-85257391.00547523@mail.megageek.com><473873BF.4090805@xxiii.com>
	<2400a5d40711120804t55b60278xee2f584c451d6a1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010601c82549$9e1dc2d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Anything that will stiffen the fuzz enough will then allow you to quickly 
sand the walls down with a pole sander and drywall screen.  I use BIN 1-2-3 
as a primer on everything around here (well, not cars or airplanes) and it 
dries fast and pretty hard.  I've had similar problems and fixed them with 
that.  If it's not enough, use regular wall paint and a heavy-nap roller, 
barrel on lots of paint, and then sand the next day.  Should fix it right 
up.

Could the fuzz be from the drywall guy sanding the paper too much and then 
the painter using some cheap PVA primer ?  That'll happen.  I've had really 
poor results from PVA primer on drywall - no matter that it's always the 
first recommendation from paint stores.

Karl


>> That's what I'm not sure of.  I wish I had some way to contact the
>> builder and ask him what the heck happened. It's like the bare drywall
>> paper surface got wet, and someone took a wire brush to it  :(

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Mon Nov 12 11:07:31 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:07:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Question on Dryway sanding / cleanup
In-Reply-To: <010601c82549$9e1dc2d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <OF7C9CBE81.5F466E78-ON85257391.00547520-85257391.00547523@mail.megageek.com><473873BF.4090805@xxiii.com>
	<2400a5d40711120804t55b60278xee2f584c451d6a1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<010601c82549$9e1dc2d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <47389663.1050306@xxiii.com>

Karl Vacek wrote:
> Anything that will stiffen the fuzz enough will then allow you to quickly 
> sand the walls down with a pole sander and drywall screen.  I use BIN 1-2-3 
> as a primer on everything around here (well, not cars or airplanes) and it 
> dries fast and pretty hard.  I've had similar problems and fixed them with 

Thanks Guys,  at this point we have gone over whole room with the 
electric sander.  Knocked down all the fuzzies, paint drips etc.  Even 
cleaned up a lot of sloppy mud work.  got the mud corners (inside & out) 
nice and straight, square and smooth  :)

We probably need to prime the whole place now, what with exposed mud and 
stuff.  We're doing a lot of vacuuming now, and will use suto-body style 
tack-cloths to get the final dust off the drywall.

   -Wayne

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Nov 12 11:39:02 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:39:02 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Sliding door locks
In-Reply-To: <C9C37D47-C10D-4202-A1EE-7A82DFF70C88@trebelhorn.com>
References: <C9C37D47-C10D-4202-A1EE-7A82DFF70C88@trebelhorn.com>
Message-ID: <130b01c8255b$4befaf70$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> Does anybody on the list have a recommendation -- a brand or a store  
> -- for a latch that's decently made?

I don't; but I will say that those crappy locks from Home Depot have been
holding up well for me.  I replaced the one on my main back door (which
probably gets locked/unlocked an average of 4 times/day) back around 1990
and it's still working fine.  By the time it wears out, I expect to want to
replace the entire door.

They've held up much better than the cheap Quik-Set knob locks I put on
other busy doors (all of which have been replaced at least once, mostly with
'commercial' grade knobs).

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Nov 12 12:26:50 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:26:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground?
In-Reply-To: <4737299E.6060300@xxiii.com>
References: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
	<4737299E.6060300@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <131a01c82561$f93dc710$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> I doubt it.  You might be able to disconnect the neutral side 
> and stick 
> an am-meter between it and the fixture and see how much 
> current flows, 
> or if a break/fuse pops.  On 2nd thought, I wouldn't know how to 
> interpret the results and you might damage yourself or the wiring.

If you do want to attempt something like this, disconnect the neutral side;
connect the neutral from the fixture to the pole, and then put an AC
voltmeter between the neutral from the fixture and the neutral from the
power source.  The resulting measurement will give you some idea of how
poorly the fixture is grounded, and how much of a shock potential would
result if it did have a fault to ground.

Of course, since the fixture is only drawing 1/2 amp or so (assuming it's a
60 watt incandescent bulb), you will have to multiply the measured voltage
by 50 or so to get the maximum fault voltage.

But IMO it's much simpler to just assume that the fixture is not grounded
and let it go at that.  If not having it safely grounded bothers you, best
to just install a ground or GFCI.

Randall

From schauss at worldnet.att.net  Mon Nov 12 16:21:30 2007
From: schauss at worldnet.att.net (Peter Schauss)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:21:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
In-Reply-To: <000001c824c0$277f6400$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <20071112232215.CB1D6187A80@autox.team.net>

Two years ago we replaced our 1958 vintage furnace.  The old system had an
electrostatic filter which I had purchased from Sears and installed myself.
The new system, which includes integrated central air conditioning, has an
AprilAire filter system which uses a pleated paper element about 8 inches
thick.  The manufacturer's instructions recommend replacing the filter NO
MORE than once a year and claim that its filtration efficiency actually
improves with use.  From a subjective point of view, we have not noticed a
significant difference in the amount of dust in the house since we installed
the new system.

As another data point, when we would turn on the old system for the first
time in the fall we would get a sort of burning smell which I assumed was
from the dust which had settled on the heat exchanger during the summer.
The new system does not do this which leads me to conclude that the new
filter is doing what it is supposed to do.

I should qualify all of this by saying that my wife's allergies are such
that we never have doors or windows open at any time of the year.

HTH,
Peter Schauss

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shop-talk-bounces+schauss=worldnet.att.net at autox.team.net
> [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+schauss=worldnet.att.net at autox.team.net] On
> Behalf Of Bob Kegel
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:08 PM
> To: 'David C.'; shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
> 
> Our previous house had forced air heat with a Honeywell Electronic Air
> Cleaner. I recommend it highly. Where now we battle dust daily (or should)
> in the old place we only needed to dust if a mother-in-law was coming for
> a
> visit.  The cells are nasty to clean, try running them through the
> dishwasher, hung from the underside of the top rack.
> 
> Bob Kegel
> Aberdeen, WA
> _______________________________________________
> schauss at worldnet.att.net
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From arvidj at visi.com  Mon Nov 12 16:36:19 2007
From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:36:19 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
References: <20071112232215.CB1D6187A80@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <005001c82584$d378f6d0$ef281aac@behavioral.com>

> The new system, which includes integrated central air conditioning, has an
> AprilAire filter system which uses a pleated paper element about 8 inches
> thick.

I will add a +1 for the AprilAire filter. We had been using the 3M Filtreet
1000 in the old furnace and had been happy with the clean air. But when they
installed the new furnace and AC they recommended the AprilAire. It is at least
as clean as the 3M's were and I only change it once a year, in November when
I also change the humidifier media.

From msansouc at rochester.rr.com  Mon Nov 12 19:21:39 2007
From: msansouc at rochester.rr.com (Mark Sansouci)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:21:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuild a hand drill?
Message-ID: <47390A33.8030608@rochester.rr.com>

Everyone-

When I was a sprout, one of the true highlights of my life was spending 
time with my grandfather.  He would always spend time with me and always 
seemed to take me seriously.  For a special treat we would go to his 
workshop and I would be allowed to drill holes in scrap wood.  Quite an 
exciting treat for a very young child.  Sometimes we used a bit and 
brace, sometimes a 1/4" electric drill.  Both had their appeal...Bigger 
holes with the bit and brace, but the hand drill was quite a grown up 
thing...

Anyway, he is gone, I still have a love of tools and shops - and the 
drill.  Its a Craftsman "300" 1/4 drill.  Which I would guess was made 
in the late 50s early 60s?  All steel (or aluminum).  Anyway, it still 
works - sort of - but with lots of sparks and the smell of ozone from 
the ventilation slots in the back.  I expect the brushes are worn to 
nothing.

It would please me to have that drill rebuilt, but I expect its getting 
difficult to find such a service today.  I am not aware of anyone in the 
Rochester NY area.   Can anyone recommend someone you would trust with a 
memory?

Thanks in Advance

Mark

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Mon Nov 12 19:18:51 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:18:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuild a hand drill?
References: <47390A33.8030608@rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <018101c8259b$938ba420$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

You may find that dis-assembly and a good internal 
cleaning/lubrication is all it needs.

If it does need new brushes, bring the remnants to an electric motor 
rebuilder (look for an old shop on the other side of the tracks...). 
Shouldn't be hard to find/make a set of brushes.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sansouci"

> When I was a sprout, one of the true highlights of my life was 
> spending
> time with my grandfather.
>
> Anyway, he is gone, I still have a love of tools and shops - and the
> drill.  Its a Craftsman "300" 1/4 drill.  Which I would guess was 
> made
> in the late 50s early 60s?  All steel (or aluminum).  Anyway, it 
> still
> works - sort of - but with lots of sparks and the smell of ozone 
> from
> the ventilation slots in the back.  I expect the brushes are worn to
> nothing.

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Mon Nov 12 20:14:44 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:14:44 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuild a hand drill?
In-Reply-To: <018101c8259b$938ba420$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
References: <47390A33.8030608@rochester.rr.com>
	<018101c8259b$938ba420$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <473916A4.6010005@hornesystemstx.com>

Also try contacting the local Sears repair center or look up the drill 
on their web site to see if they have replacement brushes. They probably 
don't have parts listed for that old a drill, but it costs nothing to check.

Peace,
Pat

 Thusly spake Eric J Russell:
> You may find that dis-assembly and a good internal 
> cleaning/lubrication is all it needs.
>
> If it does need new brushes, bring the remnants to an electric motor 
> rebuilder (look for an old shop on the other side of the tracks...). 
> Shouldn't be hard to find/make a set of brushes.
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
> http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark Sansouci"
>
>   
>> When I was a sprout, one of the true highlights of my life was 
>> spending
>> time with my grandfather.
>>
>> Anyway, he is gone, I still have a love of tools and shops - and the
>> drill.  Its a Craftsman "300" 1/4 drill.  Which I would guess was 
>> made
>> in the late 50s early 60s?  All steel (or aluminum).  Anyway, it 
>> still
>> works - sort of - but with lots of sparks and the smell of ozone 
>> from
>> the ventilation slots in the back.  I expect the brushes are worn to
>> nothing.
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Nov 12 20:29:38 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:29:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuild a hand drill?
In-Reply-To: <47390A33.8030608@rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <884041.45178.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I bet this drill does NOT have a 3-wire grounded power
cord.   The insulation may be deteriorated, and it may
be impractical to rebuild in such a way to ensure that
it is really safe to use.

Is the existing power cord 100% OK?  My old house had
a  nice sturdy old fluorescent light fixture (with a
porcelain enameled steel reflector!)  I took it apart
one day to check the wiring.   The power cord looked
fine on the outside, but when I opened it up and
looked at the actual connections to the ballast and
sockets, the rubber insulation just crumbled off the
wires.

Doug




--- Mark Sansouci <msansouc at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> Everyone-
> 
> 
> It would please me to have that drill rebuilt, but I
> expect its getting 
> difficult to find such a service today.  I am not
> aware of anyone in the 
> Rochester NY area.   Can anyone recommend someone
> you would trust with a 
> memory?

From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Mon Nov 12 22:17:20 2007
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:17:20 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] drywall sanding
Message-ID: <000601c825b4$775ffee0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC>

Questions;
* Any ideas what would cause nappy drywall?  Moisture exposure perhaps?

We had this and it was from the use of a super crappy roller (by a super
crappy painter): it shed and left fuzz everywhere in the paint

From eric at megageek.com  Tue Nov 13 06:28:36 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:28:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] relationship advice, (it's shop related,  really!)
Message-ID: <OFC630E493.B3AC8D28-ON85257392.004A07D9-85257392.004A07DE@mail.megageek.com>

Drew writes...
>Well, it looks like you may have to explain the Inch story one more
>time now :-)

Well, it's a LONG story!!!  <badda bing!>

Huh, that Inch, "from the floor!"  <Badda BOOM!>

Well the story is here, on my website...

http://www.megageek.com/inchnick.htm

It's not really worth reading.  8>)



Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Tue Nov 13 13:53:48 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:53:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuild a hand drill?
In-Reply-To: <47390A33.8030608@rochester.rr.com>
References: <47390A33.8030608@rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20071113154426.E89918@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Mark Sansouci wrote:
> It would please me to have that drill rebuilt, but I expect its getting
> difficult to find such a service today.  I am not aware of anyone in the
> Rochester NY area.   Can anyone recommend someone you would trust with a
> memory?

    Related question follows... I have a DeWalt 18v cordless drill, much 
more recent than what Mark has, probably about 5 years old.  It died on me 
Sunday, and I ran out and replaced it with another because I was in the 
middle of a project, and needed new batteries anyway.

    But when I say "died", I mean that loosely, so I think it might be 
fixable.  The trigger is stuck "in", and when I flip the direction switch 
one way, it runs wildly ( and makes sparks ).  In t'other, it does 
nothing.

    If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to fix the old one and keep it 
as a beater/loaner drill.  I'm thinking that since the trigger appears 
mechanically jammed, something must have broken inside... either a return 
spring, or something nearby.  How likely am I to be able to buy 
replacement parts for a reasonable cost?  A whole new drill ( sans 
batteries ) on eBay is only ~$70, so buying parts quickly stops making 
sense.

    Thanks.

--
  David Hillman

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Tue Nov 13 16:41:37 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:41:37 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuild a hand drill?
In-Reply-To: <20071113154426.E89918@itonami.pair.com>
References: <47390A33.8030608@rochester.rr.com>
	<20071113154426.E89918@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <473A3631.4010106@hornesystemstx.com>

I also have DeWalt tools, and have for about 15 years. It used to be - 
and may still be- that if you take a DeWalt tool into one of their 
warranty stations they will rebuild it completely, replacing any worn 
parts for about 50% of the drill's current price. Even if your drill 
does not need all that, they have parts and can repair the drill quickly.

DeWalt will also sell you repair parts on the web, I bought parts for my 
router about a year ago and installed them myself.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake David Hillman:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Mark Sansouci wrote:
>   
>> It would please me to have that drill rebuilt, but I expect its getting
>> difficult to find such a service today.  I am not aware of anyone in the
>> Rochester NY area.   Can anyone recommend someone you would trust with a
>> memory?
>>     
>
>     Related question follows... I have a DeWalt 18v cordless drill, much 
> more recent than what Mark has, probably about 5 years old.  It died on me 
> Sunday, and I ran out and replaced it with another because I was in the 
> middle of a project, and needed new batteries anyway.
>
>     But when I say "died", I mean that loosely, so I think it might be 
> fixable.  The trigger is stuck "in", and when I flip the direction switch 
> one way, it runs wildly ( and makes sparks ).  In t'other, it does 
> nothing.
>
>     If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to fix the old one and keep it 
> as a beater/loaner drill.  I'm thinking that since the trigger appears 
> mechanically jammed, something must have broken inside... either a return 
> spring, or something nearby.  How likely am I to be able to buy 
> replacement parts for a reasonable cost?  A whole new drill ( sans 
> batteries ) on eBay is only ~$70, so buying parts quickly stops making 
> sense.
>
>     Thanks.
>
> --
>   David Hillman
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From tr6 at pipeline.com  Wed Nov 14 04:12:36 2007
From: tr6 at pipeline.com (Ronald Olds)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:12:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yard Tools
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAGR0/UN+345Oi0ESU7rmM4wBAITr15KniR9MuVqf/6yjAv4AAAFImMEAABAAAAChAJpjIUdNTIn31D9oPbrAAQAAAAA=@pipeline.com>

First I want to thank everyone for the advice on my request a few weeks ago
on hedge trimmers.  I had an old Black and Decker unit I was not happy with.
You recommended a heavier duty Black and Decker unit which I did not realize
existed.  I know feel like "Tim the Tool Man" when I am trimming my bushes.

 

I am now in the market for a good gas powered grass trimmer and a gas
powered edger.  Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in
advance for your help.

 

Ron Olds

From eric at megageek.com  Wed Nov 14 06:04:17 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:04:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Yard Tools
Message-ID: <OFCC6C8903.1769F7D0-ON85257393.0047CDF6-85257393.0047CDF9@mail.megageek.com>

Ron asks...

>I am now in the market for a good gas powered grass trimmer and a gas
>powered edger.  Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks
>in advance for your help.

Where are you located?  I have a pretty beefy edger that I only used a
couple of times to make a slit to bury cable. (invisible fence)  I'm in NJ
and if it makes sense, I'll sell it real cheap.  (I don't have info on it
right now, but let me know if you want specs / pics.)

It ran fine when I last put it away.

Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From ericm at lne.com  Wed Nov 14 15:20:17 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:20:17 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] hot tub refinishing
Message-ID: <20071114222017.GE22718@slack.lne.com>

Hi Shop-talkers.

I have a cheap hot tub with a fiberglass tub.  The gelcoat
on the fiberglass is cracking.  I'd like to get a few more
years out of it.

Can I just buy epoxy and brush it on?  Will it smooth over
reasonably if I do so?  I know it won't be like it was popped
from a mold but I dont want it to have bad brush marks.
Any other hints/tips/tricks?

Thanks!

Eric

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Nov 14 15:25:47 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:25:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] hot tub refinishing
In-Reply-To: <20071114222017.GE22718@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <982695.65023.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A hot tub is just a boat that has been turned
inside-out.  Go ask a boat owner (not me,
unfortunately) what they would do.  Fiberglass boats
are known to have an issue where moisture gets under
the gelcoat and makes blisters.

Also, you probably have to figure out if the surface
of the hot tub is epoxy or polyester.

Doug


--- ericm at lne.com wrote:

> Hi Shop-talkers.
> 
> I have a cheap hot tub with a fiberglass tub.  The
> gelcoat
> on the fiberglass is cracking.  I'd like to get a
> few more
> years out of it.

From shoptalk at centipi.com  Wed Nov 14 20:59:41 2007
From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:59:41 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] The HammerKing
Message-ID: <004401c8273b$f359ee10$6501a8c0@proteus457>

This involves hammering a nail, albeit in an unusual way, so I figured it
was close enough to shop-related to post here and some might get a kick out
of it.  Don't know what language it's in, but you don't have to understand
what the guy's saying to enjoy it.

 

http://tinyurl.com/37v2fv

 

Mike Frerichs

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Nov 14 21:36:25 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:36:25 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] The HammerKing
Message-ID: <111520070436.18730.473BCCC90005FDAF0000492A22007343649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "Mike Frerichs" <shoptalk at centipi.com>
> This involves hammering a nail, albeit in an unusual way, so I figured it
> was close enough to shop-related to post here and some might get a kick out
> of it.  Don't know what language it's in, but you don't have to understand
> what the guy's saying to enjoy it.
> 
>  
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/37v2fv

I'm no linguist, but I think it is German.


--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Nov 14 21:43:47 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:43:47 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Electrostatic filters?
Message-ID: <111520070443.24767.473BCE830005ADA8000060BF22007343649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "Bob Kegel" <bobkegel at seanet.com>
> Our previous house had forced air heat with a Honeywell Electronic Air
> Cleaner. I recommend it highly. Where now we battle dust daily (or should)
> in the old place we only needed to dust if a mother-in-law was coming for a
> visit.  The cells are nasty to clean, try running them through the
> dishwasher, hung from the underside of the top rack.
> 
> Bob Kegel

We put ours in the dishwasher on top of the bottom rack.  The secret to protecting them is to:
Put plastic tumblers over a few of the "spikes" in the bottom rack.
Place the cleaner unit on top of the tumblers so that the side with the fragile little wires faces up.

This was recommended by the service center in Robbinsdale Minnesota, and the guy seems to know what he is doing.


--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From mikel at ichips.intel.com  Thu Nov 15 10:03:40 2007
From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:03:40 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] The HammerKing
In-Reply-To: Message from pethier@comcast.net  of "Thu, 15 Nov 2007
	04:36:25 GMT."
	<111520070436.18730.473BCCC90005FDAF0000492A22007343649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200711151703.lAFH3eJr029423@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com>

>> This involves hammering a nail, albeit in an unusual way, so I figured it
>> was close enough to shop-related to post here and some might get a kick out
>> of it.  Don't know what language it's in, but you don't have to understand
>> what the guy's saying to enjoy it.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> http://tinyurl.com/37v2fv
>
>I'm no linguist, but I think it is German.

I'm not a linguist either, but it was pretty cool.  My wife simply rolled her 
eyes....

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Thu Nov 15 17:54:16 2007
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:54:16 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Leather Finish
Message-ID: <00a001c827eb$38c854f0$0600a8c0@Dell9200>

I am in the process of making a set of leather straps to hold down a spare 
tire.  I ordered some strips of leather from Tandy Leather and it arrived a 
couple of days ago.  It is 1/8 thick and 1 1/4 wide and will work just fine 
for my purpose.  It is a very light beige color which I assume is a natural 
color.  Is there some sort of dressing or oil that I should use to make it 
darker and protect it from the elements?  I seem to recall Neat's-Foot Oil 
is something I would put on a new pair of hunting boots and my ball glove 
many years ago.  How about just plain old shoe wax to give it some color? 
You all can tell that I don't have a clue what I am doing.  I would like for 
this to look like old "English" leather.

Please Humor Me!

Thanks,

Mark
Nashville
http://www.arrestmered.com
58 "Bugeye"
66 TR4A
S2-27
WB0NOO 

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Nov 15 18:44:07 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:44:07 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Leather Finish
In-Reply-To: <00a001c827eb$38c854f0$0600a8c0@Dell9200>
References: <00a001c827eb$38c854f0$0600a8c0@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <011001c827f2$2d667f40$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

To get the "old English" leather look, I'd start with brown shoe dye.
(Unless of course you're perverse enough to want to make your own tannic
acid from tree bark <g>).

Then any shoe store (or K-mart, Wal-Mart, etc.) should be able to sell you
the modern equivalent of Neat's Foot Oil (which usually has mink oil in it
now).

Randall

From doug at dougbraun.com  Thu Nov 15 18:49:16 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:49:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Leather Finish
In-Reply-To: <00a001c827eb$38c854f0$0600a8c0@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <77059.86863.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>From ads in '70's mens magazines:

"All my men wear English Leather, or they wear nothing
at all."

Doug


--- Mark <mark at nashvilletn.org> wrote:

> You all can tell that I don't have a clue what I am
> doing.  I would like for 
> this to look like old "English" leather.
> 
> Please Humor Me!

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Thu Nov 15 18:51:16 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:51:16 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] The HammerKing
References: <111520070436.18730.473BCCC90005FDAF0000492A22007343649D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <001301c827f3$332fdc90$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

----- Original Message ----- 
> I'm no linguist, but I think it is German.

I sent that link to my niece a few weeks ago wondering what he was 
saying... Here was her reply:

------------------------------------------------
Hi, Uncle Eric!

Here's a rough translation.

Hi, handymen! Watch my fitting OBI Hammer commercial. [note: I gather 
OBI is a brand of hammer. Maybe you already know this!] Keep an eye on 
where the hammer hangs. And don't try this at home -- it would hurt.
Cool. [I think this is another voice off-camera that says this, when 
the guy's balancing a hammer on his nose.]
[1st guy:] So, my nail's overhead. [not totally sure about this part, 
but basic gist; this is before he starts juggling]
[2nd guy:] I'm getting excited. [<--before juggling, then after 
hitting nail-->] Insanity, insanity! [etc.] Super! The hammer really 
did it. How did you do that? [interspersed with 1st guy talking]
[1st guy, at end:] The finale of the hammer thrower. [as in, Ta-da!]

Hope that helps! That was fun to see. Steve has tried to learn 
juggling, but never with hammers. :)

Love,
Mandy
----------------------------------------------


Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com  Thu Nov 15 18:56:33 2007
From: gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com (Gil Fuqua)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:56:33 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Leather Finish
References: <00a001c827eb$38c854f0$0600a8c0@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <15C2B55292D4494EAAB4557F5BCEC0D2013326A7@bnaexg01.cci-ir.com>

There is a trick used for new saddles to give them a more aged look.  Take
olive oil and apply it with a brush or your fingers.  It works better if you
heat it slightly in the microwave.  You might want to test a small area.

After the olive oil has soaked in, the leather will be much darker and richer
looking.  Initially, the leather will be very dark with the wet oil and will
lighten in color as the oil dries back.  The 'natural' oils in the olive oil
will not damage the leather and help to protect it from weathering.  More
coats of olive oil will help to deepen the color.  I would suggest you wait
several days after applying the oil to judge the final color since you need to
allow time for the oil to penetrate the leather and evaporate from the
surface.

If the olive oil does not result in the color you are after, then try staining
the leather before applying the oil.  You cannot easily stain the leather once
you have treated it with any oil products, whether olive oil or neat's-foot
oil.  Experiment with a small piece before completing the whole lot.

Gil Fuqua
Nashville

________________________________

From: shop-talk-bounces+gil.fuqua=cci-ir.com at autox.team.net on behalf of Mark
Sent: Thu 11/15/2007 6:54 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Leather Finish



I am in the process of making a set of leather straps to hold down a spare
tire.  I ordered some strips of leather from Tandy Leather and it arrived a
couple of days ago.  It is 1/8 thick and 1 1/4 wide and will work just fine
for my purpose.  It is a very light beige color which I assume is a natural
color.  Is there some sort of dressing or oil that I should use to make it
darker and protect it from the elements?  I seem to recall Neat's-Foot Oil
is something I would put on a new pair of hunting boots and my ball glove
many years ago.  How about just plain old shoe wax to give it some color?
You all can tell that I don't have a clue what I am doing.  I would like for
this to look like old "English" leather.

Please Humor Me!

Thanks,

Mark
Nashville
http://www.arrestmered.com <http://www.arrestmered.com/>
58 "Bugeye"
66 TR4A
S2-27
WB0NOO
_______________________________________________
gil.fuqua at cci-ir.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From juice at lerch.org  Fri Nov 16 10:18:17 2007
From: juice at lerch.org (Justin Bedard)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:18:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Seaway Windows
Message-ID: <d33a66540711160918t6e0c2291m7a1983f03730741f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm looking to get the windows in my house replaced (20 total plus 5
basement windows [30x18]).  I got my first quote today.  They showed me
Seaway windows.  I'm looking at the Encore series because they don't cost
that much more then the Accolade series.  Any opinions on these windows?

I was quoted about $410/window installed.  That included grids in the upper
half (to maintain current look) and Argon gas.  More information on the
windows can be found here:

http://www.seawaymfg.com/products/vinyl-replacement-windows/encore/

I'm waiting for more estimates.  Of course, there are no other Seaway
distributor in the area (I haven't verified that).  And if anyone has any
recommendations for contractors in the King of Prussia, PA area, I'm more
then happy for any suggestions.

Thanks!
Justin

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Fri Nov 16 11:20:04 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:20:04 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Seaway Windows
In-Reply-To: <d33a66540711160918t6e0c2291m7a1983f03730741f@mail.gmail.co
  m>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071116132004.01159720@pop.east.cox.net>

At 12:18 PM 11/16/2007 -0500, Justin Bedard wrote:

>I'm looking to get the windows in my house replaced (20 total plus 5
>basement windows [30x18]).  I got my first quote today.  They showed me
>Seaway windows.  I'm looking at the Encore series because they don't cost
>that much more then the Accolade series.  Any opinions on these windows?
>
>I was quoted about $410/window installed.  That included grids in the upper
>half (to maintain current look) and Argon gas.  More information on the
>windows can be found here:....

Justin,

Don't know much about those windows, but that seems like a pretty 
decient price.  I just had my house done, 16 windows, including a large
bay window with a picture window in the center.  The price was about $450
per window.

I opted out of the grids at $25 to $35 per window.

I paid a little more to the vendor that installed them then some of the
other vendors wanted.  This vendor has been in business in our area for
over 50 yrs.  The others only had 5 yrs ish.  Also this company had their
own installers on staff.  The others used subcontractors.

I've heard too many stories about problems with subcontractors doing the
work for companies.  So their own staff was a big plus.

Most of the companies were fairly close, from the lowest to the highest
the difference was only about $1,000.

In reality, I think most of the windows are pretty comperable.  Now places
like Window World and a few others, I don't know about.  But if everyone
wants about $400-$450 per window, how can the low ballers do it for $200?

I must admitt that I was quite supprised at how fast the new windows were
installed.  There was only 1 person doing the installation.  He did over
11 windows the 1st day.  To basically pull the old ones out and install
the new ones took about 1/2 hr per work.  The total job took about 3 days
for the 16 windows and to "box" or "wrapp" them.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Nov 16 14:07:13 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:07:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

Anyone out there know much about wheel balancers?

This is one of the cheapest ones I've found:

http://www.americasprideonline.com/wheel-balancer-1016071-3-1.ViewProduct

It looks basically like all the wheel balancers I've used at friend's 
shops in the past, but I'm wondering what all the differences are between 
a higher end balancer and a cheap one like this.

Basically, I care more about the ability to get a good balance rather than 
how long it takes (within reason) to do so.  So if one balancer will 
require me to recalibrate it every now and then or something like that I 
don't care, but I DO care if one balancer will provide a better balance 
than another.

I've yet to ever use a wheel balancer at a shop that didn't "work" for me, 
in the sense that I could always get a balance that felt correct out on 
the road.

Should I just get a cheap one or spend more (or less :-) to get something 
different?

Thanks!

Mark

(btw, yes with the racing & other vehicle maintenance I do, one of these 
cheaper wheel balancers will pay for itself over time, even if I don't 
count the convience of having my own balancer)

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Fri Nov 16 14:52:45 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:52:45 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <015601c8289b$0597de60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> It looks basically like all the wheel balancers I've used at friend's 
> shops in the past, but I'm wondering what all the differences 
> are between 
> a higher end balancer and a cheap one like this.

I don't know, but I do know it's important to check that it can grip your
wheels properly.  By default, most balancers grip the wheels by the center
hole, which sometimes isn't accurate, especially for British wire wheels.
There are also other vehicles around that center the wheels by the mounting
holes rather than the center hole (so the balancer needs to center with the
mounting holes as well).

Randall

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 15:49:49 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:49:49 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711161449x5d75aad5q2b414cd791131550@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 4:07 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> Anyone out there know much about wheel balancers?
>
> This is one of the cheapest ones I've found:
>
> http://www.americasprideonline.com/wheel-balancer-1016071-3-1.ViewProduct
>
> It looks basically like all the wheel balancers I've used at friend's
> shops in the past, but I'm wondering what all the differences are between
> a higher end balancer and a cheap one like this.
>
> Basically, I care more about the ability to get a good balance rather than
> how long it takes (within reason) to do so.  So if one balancer will
> require me to recalibrate it every now and then or something like that I
> don't care, but I DO care if one balancer will provide a better balance
> than another.
>
> I've yet to ever use a wheel balancer at a shop that didn't "work" for me,
> in the sense that I could always get a balance that felt correct out on
> the road.
>
> Should I just get a cheap one or spend more (or less :-) to get something
> different?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
>
> (btw, yes with the racing & other vehicle maintenance I do, one of these
> cheaper wheel balancers will pay for itself over time, even if I don't
> count the convience of having my own balancer)

The big differences in wheel balancers are, until you get up into the
road force balance ones,  are mostly ones of capacity -- how big a
wheel can it work on, how wide or narrow a wheel, how big a
combination, how heavy?  -- and speed and ease of use.  A machine that
rotates the tire to the right position to install the next weight, and
then locks it there saves a bunch of time.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Nov 16 19:07:24 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:07:24 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
In-Reply-To: <015601c8289b$0597de60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<015601c8289b$0597de60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c828be$9b0f2f20$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

 > especially for British wire wheels.

FYI - I've proven to two different shops that without the Rudge specific
adapter, they cannot balance center lock wheels.  The angles are very
different than standard parts and reproducible results cannot be achieved.
I had one guy try four times and each time the results were so far off, that
he could not even consider arguing.

Jack

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Nov 16 19:17:38 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:17:38 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net><015601c8289b$0597de60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
	<019c01c828be$9b0f2f20$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <001501c828c0$09c9ef80$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/wheels/wl110.htm

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers


> > especially for British wire wheels.
>
> FYI - I've proven to two different shops that without the Rudge 
> specific
> adapter, they cannot balance center lock wheels.  The angles are 
> very
> different than standard parts and reproducible results cannot be 
> achieved.
> I had one guy try four times and each time the results were so far 
> off, that
> he could not even consider arguing.
>
> Jack

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Fri Nov 16 19:41:09 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:41:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40711161449x5d75aad5q2b414cd791131550@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<2400a5d40711161449x5d75aad5q2b414cd791131550@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711162138500.27522@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007, David Scheidt wrote:
> The big differences in wheel balancers are, until you get up into the 
> road force balance ones, are mostly ones of capacity -- how big a wheel 
> can it work on, how wide or narrow a wheel, how big a combination, how 
> heavy?  -- and speed and ease of use.  A machine that rotates the tire 
> to the right position to install the next weight, and then locks it 
> there saves a bunch of time.

So accuracy shouldn't be affected?  I'm not needing to bang out a ton of 
mountings per day, so if the differences (past capacity) are all in the 
"easier/faster to use" area like rotating the wheels for me, I'll just get 
the cheaper one.

What's the heaviest wheel I'm likely to want to balance?  What's something 
like a 1 ton dually wheel/tire weigh?

Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 19:54:15 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:54:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711162138500.27522@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<2400a5d40711161449x5d75aad5q2b414cd791131550@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711162138500.27522@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711161854t1f9ea9a2x660923843f5bbd8c@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 9:41 PM, Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
>
> What's the heaviest wheel I'm likely to want to balance?  What's something
> like a 1 ton dually wheel/tire weigh?
>

Going on a hundred pounds.  35 to 40 for a steel wheel, 50 - 60 for a tire.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Nov 16 21:19:59 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:19:59 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers
In-Reply-To: <001501c828c0$09c9ef80$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711161601400.10005@mephisto.banklogic.net><015601c8289b$0597de60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><019c01c828be$9b0f2f20$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<001501c828c0$09c9ef80$0202a8c0@ejrussell>
Message-ID: <01aa01c828d1$1e8f68d0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Exactly!  A standard machine cannot hit those points.  They need the Rudge
specific adapter.

Jack 

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Eric J
Russell
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:18 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers

http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/wheels/wl110.htm

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Brooks" <jibjib at att.net>
To: <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wheel balancers


> > especially for British wire wheels.
>
> FYI - I've proven to two different shops that without the Rudge 
> specific
> adapter, they cannot balance center lock wheels.  The angles are 
> very
> different than standard parts and reproducible results cannot be 
> achieved.
> I had one guy try four times and each time the results were so far 
> off, that
> he could not even consider arguing.
>
> Jack
_______________________________________________
jibjib at att.net

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From eric at megageek.com  Mon Nov 19 09:02:36 2007
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:02:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming!  (very shop related)
Message-ID: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>

Well, my rich uncle decided it was time for me to go back to the big
sandbox for an extended stay.  This summer, Ibll be leaving for Iraq for a
year.  My question is, what state should I leave certain items.  Here is my
listb& (note, everything will be stored in an garage, out of the elements.)
I would prefer to prepare all items in a state of b
ready to useb
 as I might
be able to come back once or twice during the year.  But will do what is
best.

Truck.  I get an insurance break if itbs not being used.  What is the best
way to prepare a vehicle for a one year stay in storage?   Is climate
controlled storage better?  Should I drain any fluids?  Should I leave it
on a lift or on the ground?

Motorcycles. I have two.  What should I do with them?

Lawn mower?

Weed wacker?

Compressor? (should I leave the drain valve open?

ATC?

Scuba gear?

Now, I fully expect to get the emails likeb&  b
Let me have them, and Ibll
use them while you are gone!b
  So donbt bother sending them.  8>)




Moose

"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
     Tori Amos

From eltonclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 09:37:20 2007
From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:37:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming! (very shop related)
In-Reply-To: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <ea2385360711190837w68faa0a6rce2749daab466c23@mail.gmail.com>

*Thanks for serving our country and come home safe . . *
**
*Engine storage is on my list a lot as I have collector cars, cycles and
tractors.  I try to drain all fuel from systems and tanks but the "fuel
stabilizers" like "STABIL" are good for a few months.  I like to run my 4
stroke motors, air-cooled especially, on some 2-stroke mix fuel for a minute
to get some lube on the upper cylinder area;  maybe a "cocktail" of 2-stroke
fuel AND "Stabil" would be smart!  I like to blow up tires to their max for
storage if I can't block them up.*
**
*Be careful out there.*
*Tony   *

**


On Nov 19, 2007 10:02 AM, <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Well, my rich uncle decided it was time for me to go back to the big
> sandbox for an extended stay.  This summer, Ib ll be leaving for Iraq for
> a
> year.  My question is, what state should I leave certain items.  Here is
> my
> listb& (note, everything will be stored in an garage, out of the
> elements.)
> I would prefer to prepare all items in a state of b ready to useb  as I
> might
> be able to come back once or twice during the year.  But will do what is
> best.
>
> Truck.  I get an insurance break if itb s not being used.  What is the
> best
> way to prepare a vehicle for a one year stay in storage?   Is climate
> controlled storage better?  Should I drain any fluids?  Should I leave it
> on a lift or on the ground?
>
> Motorcycles. I have two.  What should I do with them?
>
> Lawn mower?
>
> Weed wacker?
>
> Compressor? (should I leave the drain valve open?
>
> ATC?
>
> Scuba gear?
>
> Now, I fully expect to get the emails likeb&  b Let me have them, and Ib
> ll
> use them while you are gone!b   So donb t bother sending them.  8>)
>
>
>
>
> Moose
>
> "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute."
>     Tori Amos
> _______________________________________________
> eltonclark at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Mon Nov 19 10:59:22 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:59:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming!  (very shop  related)
In-Reply-To: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711191254180.32193@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, eric at megageek.com wrote:
> Well, my rich uncle decided it was time for me to go back to the big 
> sandbox for an extended stay.  This summer, Ibll be leaving for Iraq 
> for a year.  My question is, what state should I leave certain items. 
> Here is my listb& (note, everything will be stored in an garage, out of 
> the elements.) I would prefer to prepare all items in a state of bready 
> to useb as I might be able to come back once or twice during the year. 
> But will do what is best.
>
> Truck.  I get an insurance break if itbs not being used.  What is the 
> best way to prepare a vehicle for a one year stay in storage?  Is 
> climate controlled storage better?  Should I drain any fluids?  Should I 
> leave it on a lift or on the ground?
>
> Motorcycles. I have two.  What should I do with them?

For the truck & the motorcycles, I'd store them in the air, off the tires. 
Stabil is supposedly good for a year, and the nice thing is that stuff is 
ready to go if you come back in a few months.  I'd add the stabil & fill 
the gas tanks completely, then run the engines for a while to get it 
distributed.  Change the oil so that anything in there can't screw with 
the bearings.  Remove the batteries and put them on a battery tender.

If you can come back before the year is up, put the battery in and go.

> Lawn mower?
>
> Weed wacker?

I'd run them outta gas, clean them, and call it good.

> Compressor? (should I leave the drain valve open?

I've never heard of anything special for compressor storage.  I'd close 
off any valves and leave it.

> ATC?

4 wheeler?  I'd do the same as for the truck/bikes.

> Scuba gear?

No clue at all.  Maybe some rubber conditioner?

> Now, I fully expect to get the emails likeb& bLet me have them, and 
> Ibll use them while you are gone!b So donbt bother sending them. 
> 8>)

Another choice with the truck would be to have a buddy come take it for an 
hour drive or so every month.

Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Mon Nov 19 12:22:41 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:22:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming!  (very shop  related)
In-Reply-To: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <265065.28462.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

About 14 years ago I worked overseas for a couple of
years, and my company paid for climate-controlled
storage of my '72 Spitfire.  When the assignment was
done, I didn't move back to Sunnyvale CA where I had
been living, so I had them deliver the car to a nearby
hotel, where I was visiting for a few days.  They
brought the car on a flatbed, and I immediately
checked the fluids, started it up, and began driving
up to Portland OR, about 660 miles away.  Apart from
the fact that the battery was mostly shot, the car
give me no trouble during the trip.  

So I highly recommend climate-controlled storage. 
There is much less moisture and no chance of
condensation, like you would get in a covered parking
space or unheated garage.

Doug


--- eric at megageek.com wrote:

> Truck.  I get an insurance break if itbs not being
> used.  What is the best
> way to prepare a vehicle for a one year stay in
> storage?   Is climate
> controlled storage better?  Should I drain any
> fluids?  Should I leave it
> on a lift or on the ground?

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Mon Nov 19 12:36:01 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:36:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming!  (very shop  related)
References: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C79763875F@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

eric at megageek.com wrote:
>
> Should I leave it on a lift or on the ground?

DO NOT store cars/trucks "on jacks" (or on a two post lift).

Yes, it may save the minor possibility that the tires might get a flat spot
(modern tires don't flat spot, and any flat spotting that does happen will
disappear aft the tires are warmed up by driving) but it can cause increased
damage tot he suspension bushings.

The rubber in the bushings are left in a twisted state when the suspension is
left to "droop", and this twisted/stretched state of the rubber causes them to
degrade more rapidly.  Since it's more expensive and a lot more work to
replace damaged suspension bushings than the slight possibility of flat
spotting, I leave the car/truck sitting on the ground.

The best thing to do is to fill the fuel tank all the way (helps to prevent
condensation), but add some Stabil to it before you fill it.  Drive the
car/truck/motorcycle home and do an oil and filter change - the old oil will
have the contaminents in it that can "eat away" at the engines internals, and
fresh oil is better for storage.

Inflate the tires to the maximum pressure on the sides.

If you are really worried about things, you can remove the spark plugs and
spray some "oil fog" (stuff made for storing engines) into the cylinders, and
replace the spark plugs -  but it's really not need for only a year or so.

Top off any and all fluids - even better if you go through the effort to drain
an re-fill the radiator and hydraulic systems.

DO NOT have the engines started periodically while you are gone.  Park them
and leave them, and don't start them unless you can take it for at least a 20
minutes drive (note idling in the garage does more damage than good).

Get some steel wool/wire mesh, and plug up the exhaust and intake openings to
keep critters out.  Add some moth balls under the hood, dash, and seats to
keep the mice from nesting.  Place rat poison in the garage for any critters
that get in.

Get some Battery Tenders/MINDers/maintainers and connect them to the batteries
to keep them fully charged while you are gone.  No need to remove them from
the car, just get a maintainer - NOT a trickle charger - to keep them charged
or you will come back to dead batteries from just sitting.  Some of the ones
lime Battery MINDer and Battery Tender have versions that can be connected to
multiple batteries to keep each one maintained independently.

But the reality is that parking a car/truck/whatever for a year really isn't
that hard on things.

Good luck over there, and keep you head down.

Tim Mullen

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 12:44:02 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:44:02 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming!  (very shop  related)
Message-ID: <111920071944.20860.4741E782000B2C700000517C220702163304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

> Now, I fully expect to get the emails likeb&  bLet me have them, and Ibll
> use them while you are gone!b  So donbt bother sending them.  8>)

let me have them, I'll use them while you're gone!

seriously, that might be the best arrangement--have a friend come over every so often and actually use stuff that lends itself to it.

I'd do all the stabil/draining/etc. that everybody else mentioned, and for the bikes, I'd get front and rear stands to get the tires off the ground, cars and trucks on jackstands, etc., batteries on tenders (but you'll probably lose them anyway) and (if they're carbed) drain tank and run them on ~5 minutes of stabil-ed gas until it runs dry.  you might still be looking at a carb rebuild when you get back, but at least the teardown won't be as bad.  all I've learned from putting stuff up long-term is that it depends entirely on which gas formulation you got in the tank when you put it up.  I've had a few bikes and a car fire right up after years of sitting, one didn't make it six months before the carb was too gunked to use.  I store everything dry now.  I had one that the remnants of the fuel (apparently) dried on the slide and needles and still needed cleaning, but at least it wasn't as bad.  the rest were fine.  now I rev the snot out of them before they croak in an effort to get
 as much airflow as possible to dry everything out as it's going out.

I wouldn't over-inflate tires, just to normal pressure (if they're up in the air).  I think I remember reading that old-style batteries can have their electrolyte drained, but I've never tried it.  my bikes all have user-serviceable batteries, though, if yours do, might want to try it.  my bike batteries don't like the battery tender anyway.

yard equipment I don't trust any farther than I can throw my mother-in-law, generally, and she's got enough mass that things go into orbit around her.  stabil & gas until run dry on full throttle, hose down every control pivot and cable with whatever protectant you've got (that stuff boeing developed seems popular), put a tractor on stands off the wheels and go.  or just sell all the yard stuff and replace it when you get back.  if you've got a tractor with a tank vent (my old snapper had one), plug it--stuff (bugs, grit, dust) gets in there and you *still* have to clean it out.  I started wrapping my son's, er, my (I don't let him ride it, honey, honest) minibike carb in a baggie for the same reason--the inlet capped by the oiled filter which'll gunk up pret'good in a dusty area over a winter.

if it's in a garage pop the hood(s) and don't cover anything--mice like covers, apparently.  mothballs and traps.  good luck.  don't get yourself shot/blown up/burned out.

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Mon Nov 19 13:03:34 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:03:34 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming!  (very shop  related)
In-Reply-To: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@
	mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071119150334.00afe9d8@pop.east.cox.net>

At 11:02 AM 11/19/2007 -0500, Moose wrote:
>Well, my rich uncle decided it was time for me to go back to the big
>sandbox for an extended stay.....

Moose/Inch,

Sorry to hear that.  But best of luck, and you'll be in our thoughts and 
prayers.  Stay safe, and keep your guard up.


>Truck.  I get an insurance break if itbs not being used.  What is the best
>way to prepare a vehicle for a one year stay in storage?   Is climate
>controlled storage better?  Should I drain any fluids?  Should I leave it
>on a lift or on the ground?

My thoughts on your list, would be:

1. Drain all the gas you can out of any internal combustion engine, and then
   run until the carb. is dry.

   This is based on the problems I have with my Morgan.  Everyyear when I
   take it out, I have to drain the old gas, and flush the lines, clean the
   carb and fuel pump.  You'd think I'd learn.

   The new gas doesn't stay volital very long, and can really mess things
   up.

   You might want to pull the plugs and squirt some heavy oil in and rotate
the engine over by hand a couple of times to coat the cylinder walls.

Other fluids like oil, coolant, and brake fluid, can stay. 

Before trying to start any of the engines when you return, be sure to pull
the plugs and turn them over some to get the oil flowing.

Anything like you lift should be kept in an unstrained position.  Again the
lift should be down.  That way the cables are having to support the lift
for the entire time your gone.  Springs aren't spring etc.

It wouldn't hurt to put vechiles up on stands so the tires don't flat spot.
But I don't think that is really necessary.  But if you have the time and
enough stands, it wouldn't hurt.

>Compressor? (should I leave the drain valve open?)

I wouldn't.  That would just allow more air/moisture in.  I'd drain it,
and try and get as much moisture out as you can.  Then just leave it sit.
Unfortunately, the manufactures don't make it easy to coat the cyl walls
on these with oil.

>Now, I fully expect to get the emails likeb&  bLet me have them, and Ibll
>use them while you are gone!b  So donbt bother sending them.  8>)

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Mon Nov 19 16:28:29 2007
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:28:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
Message-ID: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>

My new F250 came with clearance lights across the top of the cab.  What 
purpose are they supposed to serve? 

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Nov 19 16:34:52 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:34:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
In-Reply-To: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>
References: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>
Message-ID: <20071119183220.L26934@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Jim Juhas wrote:
> My new F250 came with clearance lights across the top of the cab.  What
> purpose are they supposed to serve?

    To tell people that you $pent for the F250 and not the cheaper F150. ;)

--
  David Hillman
  ^- cheapskate F150 owner

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:02:45 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:02:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
In-Reply-To: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>
References: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711191602o7c8daf94n606b8ad7ebc9654a@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 6:28 PM, Jim Juhas <james.f.juhas at snet.net> wrote:
> My new F250 came with clearance lights across the top of the cab.  What
> purpose are they supposed to serve?

They're required on vehicles wider than (something, 80 inches, I
think, but I don't know) to show the rest of us that you're wider than
car would be.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 17:04:45 2007
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:04:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
Message-ID: <319519.55471.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Gov'mint regulations.  Has to do with the width of the vehicle.
I forgot the amount from looking it up many moons ago, (80"?) but 
not required unless the truck is wider than a certain amount. I know
the dual wheeled pickups require them, but the others usually don't
and are just for show. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Juhas <james.f.juhas at snet.net>
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:28:29 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights

My new F250 came with clearance lights across the top of the cab.  What 
purpose are they supposed to serve?


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better pen pal. 
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.  http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/

From jibjib at att.net  Mon Nov 19 17:12:23 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:12:23 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Well, I knew it was coming!  (very shop   related)
In-Reply-To: <265065.28462.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <OF7AB0D286.B892757C-ON85257398.0058212C-85257398.0058212F@mail.megageek.com>
	<265065.28462.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009201c82b0a$0734d770$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Most has already been stated, but if you can get the truck up on jack
stands, under the suspension components, so the suspension is not drooping,
this will be the best for your vehicle.  Lower the tire pressure and put a
heavy plastic (leaf type) bag over each tire.

Don't you just love asking knowledgeable, opinionated folks questions?

Stay safe,

Jack

From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com  Mon Nov 19 17:18:53 2007
From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:18:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071119191320.02b18ce8@pop.nycap.rr.com>

On newer Volvo  6 cyl engines the 14mm head bolts are recessed down a 
hole.  an impact socket wont quite fit  down the opening.

So I use  a "plain"'  6 point socket.  Sadly these go round fairly 
quickly or  round off the bolt head.

  the tightening torque is 90ft/lb plus 90 degrees, so they are quite tight,

  and I cant ream the hole without damaging the head.


any ideas, hints?

thanks

skip





Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:29:15 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:29:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071119191320.02b18ce8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20071119191320.02b18ce8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711191629i5602e5fcl5a7d88cef8af02be@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 7:18 PM, Skip Albright <salbrigh at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> On newer Volvo  6 cyl engines the 14mm head bolts are recessed down a
> hole.  an impact socket wont quite fit  down the opening.
>
> So I use  a "plain"'  6 point socket.  Sadly these go round fairly
> quickly or  round off the bolt head.
>

You mean, "When I put them on an impact wrench...."?


> any ideas, hints?

Don't do that.


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com  Mon Nov 19 17:55:55 2007
From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:55:55 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071119191320.02b18ce8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <005001c82b10$1e5ecea0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>

Do you have access to a lathe? Shave a little off of the outside of the
impact....it will probably still be strong enough.....

Lacking a lathe you could probably do a satisfactory job by chucking it in a
drill press, spinning it and then use a grinder to trim it down.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of Skip Albright
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:19 PM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations


On newer Volvo  6 cyl engines the 14mm head bolts are recessed down a
hole.  an impact socket wont quite fit  down the opening.

So I use  a "plain"'  6 point socket.  Sadly these go round fairly
quickly or  round off the bolt head.

  the tightening torque is 90ft/lb plus 90 degrees, so they are quite tight,

  and I cant ream the hole without damaging the head.


any ideas, hints?

thanks

skip





Nothing is as it appears
Skip Albright  salbrigh at nycap.rr.com
_______________________________________________
gerrybraz at cablespeed.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From james.f.juhas at snet.net  Mon Nov 19 18:13:10 2007
From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:13:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
In-Reply-To: <20071119183220.L26934@itonami.pair.com>
References: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net> <20071119183220.L26934@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <474234A6.4050807@snet.net>

Well, it's like this.  My new racing activities called for a replacement 
of my 1994 Dodge Ram 1500 which, in spite of having a 360 cid engine, 
simply did not like the long haul out to Pocono or Watkins glen.  And at 
110,000 miles, it was time.

My wife was convinced that getting something bigger would be better.  
(Hmmmm.)  I lucked out with a no-frills 2007 F250 with 4WD, vinyl split 
seats, no power things/accessories like windows or mirrors, but the 5.4L 
engine, trailer towing package, built in brake controller, western-style 
telescoping mirrors, all for barely more than a 2 to 3 year old used one 
would cost, this one being a repossession with less than 2,000 miles.  
9,700 # towing capacity! 

So, I was lucky.  And it came with the clearance lights on the cab for 
an extra $55.  Those would not have been on my "must have" list because 
I never knew what purpose they served.  Now I think I know why I never 
knew: they have no real purpose.

Jim Juhas
Vintage Racer and cheapskate F250 owner

David Hillman wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Jim Juhas wrote:
>  
>
>>My new F250 came with clearance lights across the top of the cab.  What
>>purpose are they supposed to serve?
>>    
>>
>
>    To tell people that you $pent for the F250 and not the cheaper F150. ;)
>
>--
>  David Hillman
>  ^- cheapskate F150 owner
>_______________________________________________

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Mon Nov 19 19:08:57 2007
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:08:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071119191320.02b18ce8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <004601c82b1a$52b421a0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>

> So I use  a "plain"'  6 point socket.  Sadly these go round fairly 
> quickly or  round off the bolt head.

Try a better-quality socket, such as a Facom OGV. They're designed to put
pressure on the bolt's flats, rather than the corners.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 19:44:11 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 02:44:11 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
Message-ID: <112020070244.2857.474249FB0002A29F00000B29220073484004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

fwiw, most sockets now incorporate the ogv architecture.  in fact, I don't think I've seen a straight-sided flat for a while.  even craftsman is doing it.  now tight they fit I couldn't say, but my macs and snap-ons do well.

I'm a long-time facom disciple, but it's the screwdrivers that are the must-haves.  for sockets I like snap-on.  wrenches, mac knuckle-savers, etc., etc.  especially with the euro where it is now.  I can only imagine what they're asking for facom stuff nowadays.  facom ratchet handles, though.  almost too nice to get grimy.  get the s-k handle for the rough work.

I was going to respond to his question with: what does volvo recommend you use?

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Bob Kegel" <bobkegel at seanet.com>

> Try a better-quality socket, such as a Facom OGV. They're designed to put
> pressure on the bolt's flats, rather than the corners.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 19 19:55:50 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:55:50 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent ballasts in the cold
Message-ID: <002001c82b20$dc8c28e0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Electronic fluorescent ballasts are able to start the tube down to zero
degrees F, whereas many plain old transformer ballasts recommend temps above
60 and practically don't seem to start well below maybe 20 degrees.

I need a few fixtures in an unheated space and happen to have enough
fluorescent shop lights lying around, but  they've got the old ballasts.

Replacement electronic ballasts are more expensive than new electronic-ballast
fixtures, so that's not an option.  I could just buy new fixtures, but my
winter use of the hangar is pretty infrequent.

Does turning them on and letting them flicker till they eventually get warm
enough to light do any harm, and if so, to the ballast or to the tube ?  I
suppose I could also put a light bulb right at each fixture at the ballast and
let them run for a while to warm the ballasts - or is it the tube that needs
to be warm ?

Thanks!
Karl

From mark at nashvilletn.org  Mon Nov 19 20:14:24 2007
From: mark at nashvilletn.org (Mark)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:14:24 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent ballasts in the cold
References: <002001c82b20$dc8c28e0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <013901c82b23$75ff1440$0600a8c0@Dell9200>

Karl,  I have the same problem and found these on eBay, 7629707638.  I have 
4 dual bulb 8 footers and even in Tennessee have a lot of flickering for 
about 15 minutes.  May give them a try.

Mark
Nashville
http://www.arrestmered.com
58 "Bugeye"
66 TR4A
S2-27
WB0NOO




Electronic fluorescent ballasts are able to start the tube down to zero
degrees F, whereas many plain old transformer ballasts recommend temps above
60 and practically don't seem to start well below maybe 20 degrees.

I need a few fixtures in an unheated space and happen to have enough
fluorescent shop lights lying around, but  they've got the old ballasts.

Replacement electronic ballasts are more expensive than new 
electronic-ballast
fixtures, so that's not an option.  I could just buy new fixtures, but my
winter use of the hangar is pretty infrequent.

Does turning them on and letting them flicker till they eventually get warm
enough to light do any harm, and if so, to the ballast or to the tube ?  I
suppose I could also put a light bulb right at each fixture at the ballast 
and
let them run for a while to warm the ballasts - or is it the tube that needs
to be warm ?

Thanks!
Karl

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Nov 19 20:22:50 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:22:50 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent ballasts in the cold
In-Reply-To: <002001c82b20$dc8c28e0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <20071120032250.JWQL24253.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>

I believe it's the tube that needs to be warm.

Just letting them flicker might shorten bulb life a bit (I think each
flicker is like another starting cycle); but I don't believe it's very much.
One of mine flickers below 60, and I haven't noticed that it burns bulbs out
any quicker than the other fixtures.

Randall

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Nov 19 20:24:51 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:24:51 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
Message-ID: <0JRS00M5TC5MBAE0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Probably a Volvo special service tool, available at your dealer for 
seven or eight hundred dollars.

At 09:44 PM 11/19/2007, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote:
>I was going to respond to his question with: what does volvo 
>recommend you use?

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 20:32:11 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:32:11 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent ballasts in the cold
In-Reply-To: <20071120032250.JWQL24253.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <002001c82b20$dc8c28e0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<20071120032250.JWQL24253.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711191932g3617b61bj88fda3594f8a8ae4@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 10:22 PM, Randall <tr3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I believe it's the tube that needs to be warm.
>
> Just letting them flicker might shorten bulb life a bit (I think each
> flicker is like another starting cycle); but I don't believe it's very much.
> One of mine flickers below 60, and I haven't noticed that it burns bulbs out
> any quicker than the other fixtures.
>

It is the tube that needs to be warm.  Fluorescents are arc lamps.
The arc is easier to strike at higher temperatures.  Electronic
ballasts use high-frequency AC, which makes them start easier.  The
ones in my unheated shop start when it's well below zero ambient
(though it's somewhat warmer in the shop, of course.)  We've installed
some exterior CFLs in the spotlights outside, which claim to work to
-10 or so, we'll see if that's true this winter.

There are bulbs that will work better in cold weather -- Freezer cases
used to use special tubes, but I suspect everyone has gone to
electronic ballasts by now.  The ballasts aren't that expensive, about
$20 a piece.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Nov 19 20:32:41 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:32:41 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071119191320.02b18ce8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20071120033241.FWBL10822.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> On newer Volvo  6 cyl engines the 14mm head bolts are 
> recessed down a hole.  an impact socket wont quite fit  down 
> the opening.

Someone already suggested skimming a bit off the outside of an impact
socket, which is what I'd do.

My only other thought, if it's always the same engine, is whether you could
find 12-point bolts (smaller head, same threads) from ARP or similar.

I take that back, one other thought is to buy better quality sockets.  I use
some older Craftsman non-impact sockets on an impact gun fairly often, and
I've not ruined one yet (although they are showing some damage around the
drive hole).

Randall

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Nov 19 20:38:56 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:38:56 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent ballasts in the cold
In-Reply-To: <013901c82b23$75ff1440$0600a8c0@Dell9200>
Message-ID: <20071120033856.GNBV10822.mta10.adelphia.net@randall>

> Karl,  I have the same problem and found these on eBay, 
> 7629707638.  I have
> 4 dual bulb 8 footers 

Hopefully, you noticed that the ballast you referenced only handles up to 4
ft bulbs, and only T8 ones at that.  If your fixtures are older, they likely
are T12 bulbs.

Randall

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Mon Nov 19 21:45:39 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:45:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
In-Reply-To: <474234A6.4050807@snet.net>
References: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>
	<20071119183220.L26934@itonami.pair.com> <474234A6.4050807@snet.net>
Message-ID: <20071119232322.K84779@itonami.pair.com>

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Jim Juhas wrote:
> My wife was convinced that getting something bigger would be better. 
> (Hmmmm.)  I lucked out with a no-frills 2007 F250 with 4WD, vinyl split 
> seats, no power things/accessories like windows or mirrors, but the 5.4L 
> engine, trailer towing package, built in brake controller, western-style 
> telescoping mirrors, all for barely more than a 2 to 3 year old used one 
> would cost, this one being a repossession with less than 2,000 miles.  9,700 
> # towing capacity!

    I can relate, I just bought my '07 F150 FX4 earlier this year, also 
lightly-used and a lot cheaper than a new one.  It's pretty fancy
( leather, console shifter, power slider and everything else ) but still 
has a 9300 pound rating.

    Actual useful content follows -> If anyone happens to be shopping for a 
tow vehicle, the Trailer Life Towing Guides are a priceless resource.

 	http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175

    Will keep you from doing something silly, like buying an F250 with the 
wrong axle, and getting 1,000 pound lower rating than an F150.

--
  David Hillman

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Nov 20 09:00:08 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:00:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
In-Reply-To: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>
References: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711201059110.16050@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Jim Juhas wrote:
> My new F250 came with clearance lights across the top of the cab.  What 
> purpose are they supposed to serve?

On the F250, its to imply that you're cool.

But on the dually F350, they're required by law if I remember correctly. 
Not sure why.

Mark

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Nov 20 09:05:26 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:05:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
In-Reply-To: <005001c82b10$1e5ecea0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <005001c82b10$1e5ecea0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711201101280.16050@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Gerald Brazil wrote:
> Do you have access to a lathe? Shave a little off of the outside of the 
> impact....it will probably still be strong enough.....
>
> Lacking a lathe you could probably do a satisfactory job by chucking it 
> in a drill press, spinning it and then use a grinder to trim it down.

You might want the grinder on the lathe too...  Sockets are pretty damn 
hard.  My old company manufactured stuff, and had a manual machining room. 
I used to use it on the off hours to make parts for the bikes I was 
racing.  The head guy was _NOT_ amused when I destroyed a couple expensive 
endmills trying to machine a socket to make a tool...

In my case I ended up heating them with a torch to remove the heat treat, 
but that wouldn't work for the OP.

Are the regular sockets you're using decent quality?  I've never had any 
particular issue using normal six point sockets on an impact when I've had 
to.

Mark

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Tue Nov 20 09:09:32 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:09:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fluorescent ballasts in the cold
In-Reply-To: <20071120032250.JWQL24253.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
References: <20071120032250.JWQL24253.mta13.adelphia.net@randall>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711201107580.16050@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Randall wrote:
> I believe it's the tube that needs to be warm.
>
> Just letting them flicker might shorten bulb life a bit (I think each 
> flicker is like another starting cycle); but I don't believe it's very 
> much. One of mine flickers below 60, and I haven't noticed that it burns 
> bulbs out any quicker than the other fixtures.

My old shop had the old style ballasts on the lights.  They'd flicker for 
a while when it was cold out (this was in PA winter) and sometimes 
would take a decent while to turn on at all.  Never had any real problem 
other than that.

Mark

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Tue Nov 20 12:30:11 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:30:11 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711201101280.16050@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <005001c82b10$1e5ecea0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711201101280.16050@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <016401c82bab$c4a09780$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> The head guy was _NOT_ amused when I destroyed a 
> couple expensive 
> endmills trying to machine a socket to make a tool...

Gee I'm glad I tried it BEFORE you told me that !  Fortunately I grabbed a
carbide end mill ... the chips turned blue but the cutter is fine and the
tools I made work quite well.  

Sometimes luck is more useful than skill !

Randall

From bill at gingerich.us  Tue Nov 20 18:50:12 2007
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:50:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
Message-ID: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>

Greetings, All.

 

I have a '93 Ford Escort with a failing automatic transmission.  Slips,
delayed engagement, delayed shifting, etc.  The car has 90M on it, and is
solid otherwise.  It was my dad's car from new, so I know the history.  I've
received quotes of anywhere from $1000 (local shop) to $3000 (dealer) for a
rebuild.  My problem is I don't have that kind of spare change.  I also
can't afford to replace the car.  I've looked for a junkyard transmission,
but most of those have more miles than what I have.  It seems a bit silly to
spend $400-$600 on a used box that may not be much better than what I have.
O'Reilly has a master rebuild kit that I can get for $255.  I'd like to fix
the car, as 30 MPH beats my truck's 14.  OK, so now the question: Is
rebuilding and automatic something that a slightly above average DIY grease
monkey can do at home?  I have the factory service CD for the car, but
haven't read through it yet.  

 

Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated as long as they are
physically possible.  ;-)

 

Bill Gingerich

OKC

From shochschild at att.net  Tue Nov 20 19:05:59 2007
From: shochschild at att.net (shochschild at att.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:05:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <A4ED38324F4949849B8904E5D3AE32A9@Toshiba>

If you haven't already, I would do some other things first, like changing 
out the fluid, cleaning the filter, adjusting the kick down linkage, and 
adjusting the bands, all of which you can do on a Saturday afternoon, won't 
cost hardly anything, and is all covered in the service manual.  You might 
be pleasantly surprised, and you may as well get up close with the thing 
since you are considering climbing inside it.

I decided it was too much for me.  When I upgraded my '94 Jeep Grand 
Cherokee from a 5.2 V8 to a 5.9, I did all the engine remove, rebuild, & 
install work myself, but I took the transmission to a Midas shop where they 
did a rebuild for $800.

Do you have a transmission jack?  A way to get it up on your super clean and 
fluid proof workbench?  All the pullers and other weird tools?  You will 
have to buy a torque converter either way I bet.  A thousand bucks might be 
a better deal than you think...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us>
To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:50 PM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild


> Greetings, All.
>
>
>
> I have a '93 Ford Escort with a failing automatic transmission.  Slips,
> delayed engagement, delayed shifting, etc.  The car has 90M on it, and is
> solid otherwise.  It was my dad's car from new, so I know the history. 
> I've
> received quotes of anywhere from $1000 (local shop) to $3000 (dealer) for 
> a
> rebuild.  My problem is I don't have that kind of spare change.  I also
> can't afford to replace the car.  I've looked for a junkyard transmission,
> but most of those have more miles than what I have.  It seems a bit silly 
> to
> spend $400-$600 on a used box that may not be much better than what I 
> have.
> O'Reilly has a master rebuild kit that I can get for $255.  I'd like to 
> fix
> the car, as 30 MPH beats my truck's 14.  OK, so now the question: Is
> rebuilding and automatic something that a slightly above average DIY 
> grease
> monkey can do at home?  I have the factory service CD for the car, but
> haven't read through it yet.
>
>
>
> Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated as long as they are
> physically possible.  ;-)
>
>
>
> Bill Gingerich
>
> OKC
> _______________________________________________
> shochschild at att.net
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk 

From bill at gingerich.us  Tue Nov 20 19:25:32 2007
From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:25:32 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <A4ED38324F4949849B8904E5D3AE32A9@Toshiba>
References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
	<A4ED38324F4949849B8904E5D3AE32A9@Toshiba>
Message-ID: <008b01c82be5$cba0d740$8ba5c6d8@shack2>

The fluid and filter were done by my Ford dealer about 3 weeks before it
started acting up.  I hadn't considered adjusting the bands or the linkage,
but that seems worth a shot.  A torque converter is something I was planning
on anyway.

As for the jack, bench, pullers, etc. some I have and some I'll need to rent
or perhaps buy.  That will depend on if they are general tools I can use
again, or specific to this task.

You're correct that $1000 might not be bad in the long run.  I just have to
find it somewhere.

Thanks for the input.

Bill

 

-----Original Message-----
From: shochschild at att.net [mailto:shochschild at att.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:06 PM
To: Bill Gingerich; shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild

If you haven't already, I would do some other things first, like changing 
out the fluid, cleaning the filter, adjusting the kick down linkage, and 
adjusting the bands, all of which you can do on a Saturday afternoon, won't 
cost hardly anything, and is all covered in the service manual.  You might 
be pleasantly surprised, and you may as well get up close with the thing 
since you are considering climbing inside it.

I decided it was too much for me.  When I upgraded my '94 Jeep Grand 
Cherokee from a 5.2 V8 to a 5.9, I did all the engine remove, rebuild, & 
install work myself, but I took the transmission to a Midas shop where they 
did a rebuild for $800.

Do you have a transmission jack?  A way to get it up on your super clean and

fluid proof workbench?  All the pullers and other weird tools?  You will 
have to buy a torque converter either way I bet.  A thousand bucks might be 
a better deal than you think...

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Tue Nov 20 19:32:26 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:32:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2><A4ED38324F4949849B8904E5D3AE32A9@Toshiba>
	<008b01c82be5$cba0d740$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <002101c82be6$c5d915b0$0202a8c0@ejrussell>

> The fluid and filter were done by my Ford dealer about 3 weeks 
> before it started acting up.

Are you assuming they used the correct transmission fluid?

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC
http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell

From ericm at lne.com  Tue Nov 20 19:35:10 2007
From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:35:10 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008b01c82be5$cba0d740$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
	<A4ED38324F4949849B8904E5D3AE32A9@Toshiba>
	<008b01c82be5$cba0d740$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <20071121023510.GP9661@slack.lne.com>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 08:25:32PM -0600, Bill Gingerich wrote:
> The fluid and filter were done by my Ford dealer about 3 weeks before it
> started acting up.  


That's suspicious.

Did they replace the fluid, or do a "flush"?
I have heard of that killing transmissions... the gunk
at the bottom of the pan gets stirred up and goes through
the trans.



Eric

From battmain at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 20:03:45 2007
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:03:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
Message-ID: <824685.6476.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Or used the correct amount of fluid and bled the system properly?

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Eric J Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
To: Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us>; shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:32:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild

> The fluid and filter were done by my Ford dealer about 3 weeks 
> before it started acting up.

Are you assuming they used the correct transmission fluid?

(snip)


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better pen pal. 
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.  http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/

From strovato at optonline.net  Tue Nov 20 21:10:54 2007
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:10:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008b01c82be5$cba0d740$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
	<A4ED38324F4949849B8904E5D3AE32A9@Toshiba>
	<008b01c82be5$cba0d740$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <0JRU00LFA8YCQ4B0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

The other thing is, how firm is that $1000?  When they've got it in 
100 pieces and they tell you it needs more work that will cost extra, 
then what?  If you have someone install a rebuilt transmission from 
one of the major rebuilding places, that should at least take some of 
that risk away.  Of course, if you are sold on the integrity of the 
local guy, that could work out just fine.  I have to agree that doing 
it yourself is probably not the best idea.  Assuming the $1000 is 
legit, best case you're talking saving $1000 - $255 which is 
$745.  Then there have to be some other expenses that will reduce 
that some more.  Plus there's a risk that after all this effort it 
won't work right.  It is probably something you could do yourself if 
you really want the experience, and have the time to go slow and 
learn.  But if it's just to save the bucks, I don't think it's worth 
it.  BTW, it's really $400-$600 for a boneyard transmission?  Heck, 
if you had the time to search around you could probably find a whole 
'93 Ford Escort for that.

At 09:25 PM 11/20/2007, Bill Gingerich wrote:
>You're correct that $1000 might not be bad in the long run.  I just have to
>find it somewhere.

From doug at dougbraun.com  Tue Nov 20 21:51:39 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:51:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <617264.43951.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Back when I was a student (circa 1982), I had a P.O.S.
'76 AMC Hornet with lots of miles.  One day I
accelerated briskly in reverse, and hear a "bang!",
and reverse gear was no more.  I put the car on jack
stands in my back yard and pulled the tranny, and
discovered that I had broke the reverse band.  A local
transmission shop was very helpful in recommending
which clutches, seals, etc, I ought to replace while I
had it out.  I took apart the gear train, added the
new seals, clutches, and reverse band, put it back
together, and installed it back in the car.  Only then
could I tell if I had been successful.  I was, and the
transmission worked fine for several years, the rest
of the time I owned the car.  My friends from back
then still remember this episode with awe.

So:  it definitely Is possible to do it yourself.

Doug

--- Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:

> Greetings, All.
> 
>  
> 
> I have a '93 Ford Escort with a failing automatic
> transmission.  Slips,
> delayed engagement, delayed shifting, etc.  The car
> has 90M on it, and is
> solid otherwise.  It was my dad's car from new, so I
> know the history.  I've
> received quotes of anywhere from $1000 (local shop)
> to $3000 (dealer) for a
> rebuild.  My problem is I don't have that kind of
> spare change.  I also
> can't afford to replace the car.  I've looked for a
> junkyard transmission,
> but most of those have more miles than what I have. 
> It seems a bit silly to
> spend $400-$600 on a used box that may not be much
> better than what I have.
> O'Reilly has a master rebuild kit that I can get for
> $255.  I'd like to fix
> the car, as 30 MPH beats my truck's 14.  OK, so now
> the question: Is
> rebuilding and automatic something that a slightly
> above average DIY grease
> monkey can do at home?  I have the factory service
> CD for the car, but
> haven't read through it yet.  
> 
>  
> 
> Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated as
> long as they are
> physically possible.  ;-)
> 
>  
> 
> Bill Gingerich
> 
> OKC
> _______________________________________________
> doug at dougbraun.com
> 
> Shop-talk mailing list
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Nov 21 07:16:46 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:16:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <0JRU00LFA8YCQ4B0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
	<A4ED38324F4949849B8904E5D3AE32A9@Toshiba>
	<008b01c82be5$cba0d740$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
	<0JRU00LFA8YCQ4B0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <47443DCE.8020908@xxiii.com>

Steven Trovato wrote:
> it.  BTW, it's really $400-$600 for a boneyard transmission?  Heck, 
> if you had the time to search around you could probably find a whole 
> '93 Ford Escort for that.

That's kinda what I was thinking.  A 13 to 14 year old Ford that was a 
semi-disposable econobox in the first place.  Not to sound too shitty -- 
I have a couple I keep around myself ;)  [1993 Nissan Sentra SE-R and 
NX2000 -- dang it, they have Character!]  But at some point you gotta 
call it quits.

Hey!  How about a 5-speed conversion?  You could score an entire junk 
car for a few hundred, $150 for a new clutch kit, swap it all over... 
More fun, more mpg, and more DIY friendly!

BTW, our 1993 NX2000 is for sale for $300 in the Asheville, NC area. 
Body rough, but mechanically pretty sound.

   -Wayne

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Nov 21 08:03:00 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:03:00 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <617264.43951.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <617264.43951.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <474448A4.9040505@hornesystemstx.com>

I had a similar experience in the late 80s with a Volvo 240 automatic 
trans (Borg-Warner). It took me about 20 hours on the bench and a 
rebuilt torque converter, but it worked fine for a couple years until 
the torque converter failed. I dropped the trans again and converted the 
car to a manual trans that worked fine for the next 15years.  It was 
still running fine when I sold it. Some times I wonder if professionally 
rebuilt parts are really worth it. The shop had a really good name, but 
the converter was then out of warranty, and I would have had to go back 
through the trans again.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Doug Braun:
> Back when I was a student (circa 1982), I had a P.O.S.
> '76 AMC Hornet with lots of miles.  One day I
> accelerated briskly in reverse, and hear a "bang!",
> and reverse gear was no more.  I put the car on jack
> stands in my back yard and pulled the tranny, and
> discovered that I had broke the reverse band.  A local
> transmission shop was very helpful in recommending
> which clutches, seals, etc, I ought to replace while I
> had it out.  I took apart the gear train, added the
> new seals, clutches, and reverse band, put it back
> together, and installed it back in the car.  Only then
> could I tell if I had been successful.  I was, and the
> transmission worked fine for several years, the rest
> of the time I owned the car.  My friends from back
> then still remember this episode with awe.
>
> So:  it definitely Is possible to do it yourself.
>
> Doug
>
> --- Bill Gingerich <bill at gingerich.us> wrote:
>
>   
>> Greetings, All.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have a '93 Ford Escort with a failing automatic
>> transmission.  Slips,
>> delayed engagement, delayed shifting, etc.  The car
>> has 90M on it, and is
>> solid otherwise.  It was my dad's car from new, so I
>> know the history.  I've
>> received quotes of anywhere from $1000 (local shop)
>> to $3000 (dealer) for a
>> rebuild.  My problem is I don't have that kind of
>> spare change.  I also
>> can't afford to replace the car.  I've looked for a
>> junkyard transmission,
>> but most of those have more miles than what I have. 
>> It seems a bit silly to
>> spend $400-$600 on a used box that may not be much
>> better than what I have.
>> O'Reilly has a master rebuild kit that I can get for
>> $255.  I'd like to fix
>> the car, as 30 MPH beats my truck's 14.  OK, so now
>> the question: Is
>> rebuilding and automatic something that a slightly
>> above average DIY grease
>> monkey can do at home?  I have the factory service
>> CD for the car, but
>> haven't read through it yet.  
>>
>>  
>>
>> Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated as
>> long as they are
>> physically possible.  ;-)
>>
>>  
>>
>> Bill Gingerich
>>
>> OKC
>> _______________________________________________
>> doug at dougbraun.com
>>
>> Shop-talk mailing list
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Nov 21 09:14:23 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:14:23 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C7979C2056@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

Bill Gingerich wrote:
>
> O'Reilly has a master rebuild kit that I can get for
> $255.  <...>  OK, so now the question: Is rebuilding
> and automatic something that a slightly above average
> DIY grease monkey can do at home?

Most seem to consider rebuilding an automatic to be "black magic" that
should be left to the pros.

I disagree.

My experience was with a Chevy Turbo 350 in my old 4x4, but rebuilding
it was easier than rebuilding an engine.

Basically, it amounted to taking it apart (there's lots of parts) and
putting it back together with new parts.  Take things apart and lay them
out in order as you go so you'll know the order and orientation of
things as you reassemble it.

The special tools I needed was a series of clutch pack compressors - I
made them with a few bucks worth of angle iron, a few bolts, and some
threaded rod.  The rest consisted of compressing the clutch pack,
removing the snap ring, releasing the clutch pack, removing the parts,
and repeating for the next pack.  Reassembly was the reverse, only I
installed new seals and clutch disks in the packs as I went.

I would imagine that doing the Ford transmission would be similar, but
use the bands instead of the clutch packs.

It really was easy.  Rebuilding an automatic was even easier than
rebuilding a manual transmission (I've done a couple of them).  The
automatic's clearances were less critical, but it had more parts that
had to be put back in the proper order

Tim Mullen

Chantilly, VA

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Nov 21 10:48:15 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:48:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711211245470.30681@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

To the OP on this topic...

If the current trans isn't working, why not take it out and take it apart?

If it looks like something you can rebuild, then buy the parts and do it.

If it doesn't look like something you can rebuild, put everything in a box 
and take it to a rebuild shop (optionally putting it back together first, 
so that you don't scare the guy).

That way you don't commit the money for the rebuild kit before you're 
comfortable that you'll be able to do it.

Mark

From doug at dougbraun.com  Wed Nov 21 11:09:17 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:09:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711211245470.30681@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <945655.49172.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This reminds me of the old joke sign in repair shops:

  Labor rates:

  $50/hr Regular
   75    If you want to watch
  100    If you want to help
  150    If you already worked on yourself

:-)
Doug


--- Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com> wrote:
> 
> If it doesn't look like something you can rebuild,
> put everything in a box 
> and take it to a rebuild shop (optionally putting it
> back together first, 
> so that you don't scare the guy).

From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Wed Nov 21 11:10:49 2007
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 06:10:49 -1200
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
Message-ID: <474474a9.1cd.f58d.488027615@ml2.myemail.com>

 Answers:  fifty cents
 Right answers: one dollar
 Dumb Looks: free


Eric Russell
Mebane, NC


> This reminds me of the old joke sign in repair shops:
> 
>   Labor rates:
> 
>   $50/hr Regular
>    75    If you want to watch
>   100    If you want to help
>   150    If you already worked on yourself
> 
> :-)
> Doug
Login from home, work, school.  Anywhere!

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Wed Nov 21 17:14:55 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:14:55 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711211245470.30681@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711211245470.30681@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <4744C9FF.3030504@hornesystemstx.com>

I agree. It's broke, what is the worst thing that can happen, you can 
break it further? 

One thing that I was told to do that helped me get my trans back 
together correctly was to use metal coat hangers and string parts of 
each assembly onto them as you take the assemblies apart. This way you 
can't knock the arrangement of parts out of place by a slip of the hand 
(or trans).

Another things is when putting the trans back together use air injected 
into the passages where the valve body sits to be sure that each of the 
clutch packs/bands work and don't leak air. It wouldn't hurt to try this 
before you pull the trans apart to see if there is leakage somewhere 
that shouldn't be leaking. (I don't know if there are any transmissions 
out there that are SUPPOSED to leak air, so if you find a leak, ask a pro.

I picked up a thin book at my local automatic transmission parts house 
which covered the rebuilding of the Borg-Warner trans that I was working 
on, including parts breakdown drawings, tolerances and wear limits. It 
was really helpful. I don't recall the name of it, but it was a manual 
geared for the professional and went by, I think, 4 initials, something 
like ATPA, or some such.

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Mark Andy:
> Howdy,
>
> To the OP on this topic...
>
> If the current trans isn't working, why not take it out and take it apart?
>
> If it looks like something you can rebuild, then buy the parts and do it.
>
> If it doesn't look like something you can rebuild, put everything in a box 
> and take it to a rebuild shop (optionally putting it back together first, 
> so that you don't scare the guy).
>
> That way you don't commit the money for the rebuild kit before you're 
> comfortable that you'll be able to do it.
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 17:50:18 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:50:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
In-Reply-To: <4744C9FF.3030504@hornesystemstx.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711211245470.30681@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<4744C9FF.3030504@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711211650x6e67ac5aj92c957af11723f6a@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 7:14 PM, Pat Horne <roadsters at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
> I agree. It's broke, what is the worst thing that can happen, you can
> break it further?
>
> One thing that I was told to do that helped me get my trans back
> together correctly was to use metal coat hangers and string parts of
> each assembly onto them as you take the assemblies apart. This way you
> can't knock the arrangement of parts out of place by a slip of the hand
> (or trans).
>

Take pictures.  Take lots of pictures.  Take pictures of everything,
and then take some more.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rkg at teleport.com  Wed Nov 21 18:51:22 2007
From: rkg at teleport.com (Richard George)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:51:22 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711211245470.30681@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<4744C9FF.3030504@hornesystemstx.com>
	<2400a5d40711211650x6e67ac5aj92c957af11723f6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4744E09A.6030209@teleport.com>

Actually, video cameras work pretty good for this - when I'm going to 
tear into a car for the first time with lots of parts on top of what I 
need to get to (like my MR2),
I'll put mine in a splash proof case and film away at every step, with 
running commentary on anything confusing...  Now that I think
about it, a consumer digicam with macro mode and a decent 
microphone/movie mode (and big screen) might have to go on my "add it to 
the
shop" list :-)

Best,

rkg
(Richard George)

David Scheidt wrote:

>On Nov 21, 2007 7:14 PM, Pat Horne <roadsters at hornesystemstx.com> wrote:
>  
>
>
>Take pictures.  Take lots of pictures.  Take pictures of everything,
>and then take some more.

From bobkegel at seanet.com  Wed Nov 21 20:08:44 2007
From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:08:44 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
In-Reply-To: <4744C9FF.3030504@hornesystemstx.com>
Message-ID: <000301c82cb4$fe394280$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>

> was really helpful. I don't recall the name of it, but it was 
> a manual  geared for the professional and went by, I think, 4 initials, 
> something  like ATPA, or some such.

That would be an ATSG manual. Google the term, you'll find several vendors.

Bob Kegel
Aberdeen, WA

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Nov 21 20:59:21 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:59:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] head bolt socket recommendations
In-Reply-To: <005001c82b10$1e5ecea0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20071119191320.02b18ce8@pop.nycap.rr.com>
	<005001c82b10$1e5ecea0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY>
Message-ID: <000501c82cbc$107eac30$317c0490$@mele@usermail.com>

<<Lacking a lathe you could probably do a satisfactory job by chucking it in
a
drill press, spinning it and then use a grinder to trim it down.>>

I did this successfully for the Torx socket to fit the S52 BMW head...

From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com  Thu Nov 22 07:53:31 2007
From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:53:31 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rebuilding the automatic
In-Reply-To: <000301c82cb4$fe394280$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
References: <000301c82cb4$fe394280$0200a8c0@8sv5f01>
Message-ID: <474597EB.2060202@hornesystemstx.com>

Yup, that's it. After carrying it around for several years I ended up 
putting it up for sale on Ebay and got  about $20 for it. Getting the 
manual for free made it all that much of a better deal for me!

Peace,
Pat

Thusly spake Bob Kegel:
>> was really helpful. I don't recall the name of it, but it was 
>> a manual  geared for the professional and went by, I think, 4 initials, 
>> something  like ATPA, or some such.
>>     
>
> That would be an ATSG manual. Google the term, you'll find several vendors.
>
> Bob Kegel
> Aberdeen, WA
> _______________________________________________
> roadsters at hornesystemstx.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>
>
>   


-- 
Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems 
(512) 797-7501 Voice		5026 FM 2001
Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com	Lockhart, TX 78644-4443
www.hornesystemstx.com
-- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT --

From jdrush at enter.net  Fri Nov 23 15:30:15 2007
From: jdrush at enter.net (Rush)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:30:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Clearance Lights
In-Reply-To: <20071119183220.L26934@itonami.pair.com>
References: <47421C1D.10305@snet.net> <20071119183220.L26934@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <47475477.1020806@enter.net>

The purpose of clearance lights is just what their name implies, to 
insure clearance. Take a close look at each light, it has a circular 
lens pointing forward. It projects light forward like a bullseye target. 
So if you pull up close to something that you are not sure you are going 
to clear, if you can see the target on the object, you won't clear.

Jon

David Hillman wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Jim Juhas wrote:
> 
>>My new F250 came with clearance lights across the top of the cab.  What
>>purpose are they supposed to serve?
> 
> 
>     To tell people that you $pent for the F250 and not the cheaper F150. ;)

From johnnybh at alltel.net  Fri Nov 23 20:27:39 2007
From: johnnybh at alltel.net (Johnny Hinman)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:27:39 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33176.1195657439.12556.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.33176.1195657439.12556.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <47479A2B.6090803@alltel.net>

-----Original Message-----

>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:50:12 -0600
>From: "Bill Gingerich" <bill at gingerich.us>
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild
>To: <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
>Message-ID: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8 at shack2>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Greetings, All.
>
> 
>
>I have a '93 Ford Escort with a failing automatic transmission.  Slips,
>delayed engagement, delayed shifting, etc.  The car has 90M on it, and is
>solid otherwise.  It was my dad's car from new, so I know the history.  I've
>received quotes of anywhere from $1000 (local shop) to $3000 (dealer) for a
>rebuild.  My problem is I don't have that kind of spare change.  I also
>can't afford to replace the car.  I've looked for a junkyard transmission,
>but most of those have more miles than what I have.  It seems a bit silly to
>spend $400-$600 on a used box that may not be much better than what I have.
>O'Reilly has a master rebuild kit that I can get for $255.  I'd like to fix
>the car, as 30 MPH beats my truck's 14.  OK, so now the question: Is
>rebuilding and automatic something that a slightly above average DIY grease
>monkey can do at home?  I have the factory service CD for the car, but
>haven't read through it yet.  
>
> 
>
>Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated as long as they are
>physically possible.  ;-)
>
> 
>
>Bill Gingerich
>
>OKC
>  
>

Bill,

First, I recommend that you get a service manual.  The only factory 
service CD that I have leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to 
providing the detailed information that you will need to do this 
yourself.  I have always found the factory service manual to be a much 
more complete reference source.  I also recommend the factory authorized 
version over any of the Haynes, Chilton or Motor's manuals. 

I found these listed on ebay; you may find them from other sources.  (By 
the way, I have no financial interest in any of these offerings.)
   
1993 Ford Escort/Tracer Service Manual      ebay item #  130176796922   
  
Haynes Repair Manual Ford Escort Tracer 1991 - 2000       ebay item #  
200177061887   
    
If you have the ATX transmission, this would be a good purchase.
  
ATX Ford Escort;Lynx Assembly/ Dissassembly Manual      Item number: 
200176343666   

If "a slightly above average DIY grease monkey" is competent and 
confident enough to do a proper carburetor rebuild, he can probably 
rebuild a transmission.  It require special tools, or a good enough 
imagination to figure out a work around.

If you like a challenge, want to learn about auto trannies, have the 
time, the patience, and the facilities, go for it.  If you're only 
looking for an easy way to save a few bucks, this is probably not it.

From lspector at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 06:33:31 2007
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:33:31 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
Message-ID: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

I recently ordered a Craftsman metric impact socket set and now that
it's here, I'm having second thoughts. I wasn't paying close attention
when I ordered it, and apparently it's missing a number of sizes.

What it came with is regular and deep: 12 thru 19, 21, 22, 24, 27 mm,
so it's missing 20, 23, 25 and 26 in the sequence that it covers.
What's interesting is that the missing sizes are not available from
Sears, so I'll have to fill in from another brand!

The question I pose to you is, should I keep the set and not worry
about the missing sizes until it becomes an issue, or return it and
pick up a set that's actually complete? I'll be using them primarily
to work on my cars (Acura, Toyota, Subaru).

Thanks,
Larry

From jniolon at bham.rr.com  Sat Nov 24 07:09:38 2007
From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:09:38 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02a301c82ea3$a6fb4090$6401a8c0@niolon>

Larry,
I had the same problem when filling my socket drawers.  They usually include 
the 'most used' sizes.  We'll that's all well and good till Sunday nite and 
you need a  23mm, right ??

I just wandered flea markets and such, digging thru tool sellers bins till I 
found what I needed in single sockets, don't overlook the junk boxes under 
the table, lots of good stuff in some of them if you look (lots of junk 
too).

I keep a list of  missing socket sizes in my wallet for just such occasions. 
Proto makes most every size as does Snap on... Williams and S&K can be found 
also.  I don't worry abou the names matching as long as I find good 
industrial grade sockets.  The nut don't care what name is on the socket.

later
John



Courage does not always roar. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the
end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Spector" <lspector at gmail.com>
To: "shop-talk" <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 7:33 AM
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?


> Hi everyone,
>
> I recently ordered a Craftsman metric impact socket set and now that
> it's here, I'm having second thoughts. I wasn't paying close attention
> when I ordered it, and apparently it's missing a number of sizes.
>
> What it came with is regular and deep: 12 thru 19, 21, 22, 24, 27 mm,
> so it's missing 20, 23, 25 and 26 in the sequence that it covers.
> What's interesting is that the missing sizes are not available from
> Sears, so I'll have to fill in from another brand!
>
> The question I pose to you is, should I keep the set and not worry
> about the missing sizes until it becomes an issue, or return it and
> pick up a set that's actually complete? I'll be using them primarily
> to work on my cars (Acura, Toyota, Subaru).
>
> Thanks,
> Larry
> _______________________________________________
> jniolon at bham.rr.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Sat Nov 24 07:44:52 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:44:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711240942330.32702@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007, Larry Spector wrote:
> I recently ordered a Craftsman metric impact socket set and now that
> it's here, I'm having second thoughts. I wasn't paying close attention
> when I ordered it, and apparently it's missing a number of sizes.
>
> What it came with is regular and deep: 12 thru 19, 21, 22, 24, 27 mm,
> so it's missing 20, 23, 25 and 26 in the sequence that it covers.
> What's interesting is that the missing sizes are not available from
> Sears, so I'll have to fill in from another brand!
>
> The question I pose to you is, should I keep the set and not worry
> about the missing sizes until it becomes an issue, or return it and
> pick up a set that's actually complete? I'll be using them primarily
> to work on my cars (Acura, Toyota, Subaru).

I don't belive I've ever seen a 20mm socket at all, let alone needed 
one...  I'd keep what you've got and wait until you need another socket 
for a job.  My guess is that you'll be waiting quite a while.

Oh, and if I were going to add sockets to that kit, I'd start with a 
32mm...

Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Sat Nov 24 08:14:02 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:14:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071124100945.L68468@itonami.pair.com>

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007, Larry Spector wrote:
> The question I pose to you is, should I keep the set and not worry
> about the missing sizes until it becomes an issue, or return it and
> pick up a set that's actually complete? I'll be using them primarily
> to work on my cars (Acura, Toyota, Subaru).

    Until recently, I've had nothing but Toyotas and Subarus for the past 
six years or so.  You shouldn't need anything but a 10,12,14,17,19 and 
30/32 (axle nuts) to work on just about any Toyota.  The Subaru is 
similar, but since I'll never repeat the mistake of buying a Subaru, 
I'm blocking out the memory of which sizes are required.

--
  David Hillman

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Sat Nov 24 12:02:39 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:02:39 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
Message-ID: <112420071902.23059.4748754E000D7A3300005A13220073484004040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I'm sure people will tell you not to worry about it, so I'll tell you the opposite.  when I finally had the money and bought myslef some tools I went through the same thing.  and I didn't always get the complete sets thinking I wouldn't ever need a 20mm box wrench (or whatever).  guess what?  we bought a vw, or new mazda, or whatever which needed exactly the sizes I didn't have.  

I can't speak for anybody else, but the best was I know to ensure the thing I just bought will contain a particular size fastener is to not have that size tool in the box.  it works the other way as well, of course, and there are sizes I use infrequently or not at all, but a lot of the sizes that I had to hunt for I do use.

snap-on carries every size socket I've ever looked for, and mac does the same with wrenches.  I"m told you can order facom tools in france in almost every required size, but the u.s. importers don't carry them.

get the facom handles for 'clean' work, the s-k handles with the same head for 'dirty' stuff and snap-on and mac sockets and wrenches.  I think I finally found s-k impacts in every size, but then got a snap-on set off ebay.  don't do that.  there's a reason people sell used impact sets on ebay.  the drive holes are almost round on that set.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Larry Spector" <lspector at gmail.com>

> The question I pose to you is, should I keep the set and not worry
> about the missing sizes until it becomes an issue, or return it and
> pick up a set that's actually complete? I'll be using them primarily
> to work on my cars (Acura, Toyota, Subaru).

From scottmryan at netzero.net  Sat Nov 24 15:56:12 2007
From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:56:12 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Stud and pipe sensors
References: <001501c8209b$1ca7fc50$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <000401c82eed$8311d550$51a917d1@smrinsp1100>

>I need a good stud and pipe sensor.  The current need is for locating
>electrical conduit.
> My 1871 house was moved and rebuilt in 1951, with rock lath (looks like
> small
> sheets of 3/8" drywall) and plaster.  the total thickness varies from
> about
> 7/8" to 1-1/8".
<snip> > Of course, the conduit system is grounded at multiple points (some
of it in
> the concrete floor), but water pipe runs in the ground, and water
> departments
> use a transmitter of some sort to help locate pipe in the ground.  Is
> something like that an option ?
> Thanks!  Karl

I have seen transmitter/reciever combinations for finding wiring pairs with
ethernet cable that might work attaching the transmitter to the pipe
somewhere away from ground (top floor or something), I would suspect that
the varying thickness of your walls will cause the density (zircon, etc)
detectors to have fits, I know our house has varying thicknesses of plaster
or sheetrock over lathing making it almost mpossible to find studs (using 2
different 3 or so year old stud detectors including one with 'deep scan'). I
was not able to find conduit behind our walls, either. Probably an old style
metal detector (the ones to find coins (or aluminum foil<grin>) underground) 
would work.

Good luck!  Scott R

From scottmryan at netzero.net  Sat Nov 24 15:54:59 2007
From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:54:59 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Does the ground ground? (GFCI Breaker)
References: <BAY126-W50B96A38A7FAC78C205B2ACC860@phx.gbl>
	<4737299E.6060300@xxiii.com>
Message-ID: <000301c82eed$8218cf50$51a917d1@smrinsp1100>

> JAMES STONE wrote:
>> I replaced a porch light today and discovered that it was only wired with 
>> 14-2
>> wire without a ground.  Since the light pole is set in concrete and 
>> buried in
>> the ground, is it grounded?  Just curious.
<snip>
> You can supposedly hook up a GFCI breaker to protect a 2-wire circuit,
> but I don't know details on how to do it.
>
>   -Wayne

It's fairly easy to hook up a GFCI breaker in the electrical box, if I 
remember correctly you hook the white wire out of the breaker to neutral 
buss, and hook the neutral return (white wire from the porch light) to the 
breaker. At least on the one I had worked on in a swimming pool lighting 
circuit.
Good Luck! Scott R 

From lspector at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 09:13:30 2007
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:13:30 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <167503c10711250813r1d40d93dsed0095b9c699ee9f@mail.gmail.com>

Well, the response is a perfect 50/50 split! I'm inclined to go along
with those of you who said to find/build a complete set, just so I'll
know that I have them all.

Thanks for the help everyone- this list is a great resource!

-Larry


On Nov 24, 2007 8:33 AM, Larry Spector <lspector at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I recently ordered a Craftsman metric impact socket set and now that
> it's here, I'm having second thoughts. I wasn't paying close attention
> when I ordered it, and apparently it's missing a number of sizes.
>
> What it came with is regular and deep: 12 thru 19, 21, 22, 24, 27 mm,
> so it's missing 20, 23, 25 and 26 in the sequence that it covers.
> What's interesting is that the missing sizes are not available from
> Sears, so I'll have to fill in from another brand!
>
> The question I pose to you is, should I keep the set and not worry
> about the missing sizes until it becomes an issue, or return it and
> pick up a set that's actually complete? I'll be using them primarily
> to work on my cars (Acura, Toyota, Subaru).
>
> Thanks,
> Larry

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Nov 28 07:53:27 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:53:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <167503c10711250813r1d40d93dsed0095b9c699ee9f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
	<167503c10711250813r1d40d93dsed0095b9c699ee9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711280952580.20278@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Larry Spector wrote:
> Well, the response is a perfect 50/50 split! I'm inclined to go along 
> with those of you who said to find/build a complete set, just so I'll 
> know that I have them all.

Sounds like a plan.

But be sure and post if you run across something that needs a 20mm socket.

:-)

Mark

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Wed Nov 28 09:59:58 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:59:58 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: fiberglass repair question
Message-ID: <004d01c831e0$1c5f92c0$551eb840$@mele@usermail.com>

List members:
I took the liberty of forwarding the fiberglass repair
question outside the list.
Shu is one of 7 people certified to work on commercial
aircraft composites/ repairs in our area.  We also own a
joint race car...

=============

Subject: RE: fiberglass repair question

Paul,

The fiberglass hot tub issues:   First, the gel coat is a
non-structural coating, not like fiberglass fusion with
epoxy as a structural parts, so don't worry about the gel
coat cracking (we call micro-cracking), this is not an
issues yet, until moisture get into the glass fiber
structure!  You can buy some epoxy paint just fill the
cracking gap will be alright for a long time!

But, if the internal fiberglass start cracking, this will
cause the leak ...... so the floor will get wet first before
you and your love one get wet!!!   Now you need to repair
the fiberglass surface by sanding the cracks in gel coat
surface all the way to fiber surface!   Rule of thumb is
keep sanding and follow the crack line until you find where
the line stop, and also sand to the layer of fiberglass
where the cracks stop before repair.   You can buy any
fiberglass repair kit in auto parts shop will work just
fine. Of course still have a lot of sanding after the repair
to make it pretty.

Personal, I don't recommends put to much time and pay big
money for repair a hot tub, use the same amount of time and
money buying your love one a Christmas gift will work just
the same result.

Good luck for hot tub repairs.......... handyman.....

Shu 

From wmc_st at xxiii.com  Wed Nov 28 10:12:15 2007
From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:12:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] FW: fiberglass repair question
In-Reply-To: <004d01c831e0$1c5f92c0$551eb840$@mele@usermail.com>
References: <004d01c831e0$1c5f92c0$551eb840$@mele@usermail.com>
Message-ID: <474DA16F.1000009@xxiii.com>

Paul Mele wrote:
> List members:
> I took the liberty of forwarding the fiberglass repair
> question outside the list.
> Shu is one of 7 people certified to work on commercial

Very interesting.

On a related topic -- my home has a one-piece fiberglass shower/tub 
enclosure with structural damage to its floor.  There's about a 5" 
diameter "flexible" spot with some cracking in the gel.  May be from the 
builder;  may be from some !@#$ relative's kid jumping into it.

Anyone know it these things are repairable?  Or have suggestions on 
vendors or info to assist?

   -Thanks,  Wayne

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 10:30:35 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:30:35 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
Message-ID: <112820071730.4095.474DA5BB000929C600000FFF220702105304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

the front axle of a 1993 kawasaki zx-7r.  I think the rear, too.

homologation bikes are are crawling with stupid one-off stuff.  parts searches are a joy.

vws, for some reason, are held together largely by torx sockets.  why?  (I know why--or at least I've been told--but it doesn't make it less disconcerting the first time to try and pop something off the car.)

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mark Andy <mark at sccaprepared.com>
 
> Sounds like a plan.
> 
> But be sure and post if you run across something that needs a 20mm socket.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 10:38:26 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:38:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <112820071730.4095.474DA5BB000929C600000FFF220702105304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <112820071730.4095.474DA5BB000929C600000FFF220702105304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711280938t377c6e3cm21b4a307a7897d4d@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 28, 2007 12:30 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> the front axle of a 1993 kawasaki zx-7r.  I think the rear, too.
>
> homologation bikes are are crawling with stupid one-off stuff.  parts searches are a joy.
>
> vws, for some reason, are held together largely by torx sockets.  why?  (I know why--or at least I've been told--but it doesn't make it less disconcerting the first time to try and pop something off the car.)

Torx lends itself (and in fact is largely designed for) robotic assembly.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From nick at landform.co.uk  Wed Nov 28 10:42:42 2007
From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:42:42 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711280952580.20278@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
	<167503c10711250813r1d40d93dsed0095b9c699ee9f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711280952580.20278@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <474DA892.2090909@landform.co.uk>

Mark Andy wrote:
> But be sure and post if you run across something that needs a 20mm socket.
>   
Howdy Mark

Should be a nice fit for a 7/16 American Standard nut. Never seen one, 
but that's what the book says...

Nick Brearley

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 10:49:48 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:49:48 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <474DA892.2090909@landform.co.uk>
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
	<167503c10711250813r1d40d93dsed0095b9c699ee9f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711280952580.20278@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<474DA892.2090909@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711280949q400d4dc5j1ca6c42e69dc629a@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 28, 2007 12:42 PM, Nick Brearley <nick at landform.co.uk> wrote:
> Mark Andy wrote:
> > But be sure and post if you run across something that needs a 20mm socket.
> >
> Howdy Mark
>
> Should be a nice fit for a 7/16 American Standard nut. Never seen one,
> but that's what the book says...
>

I've got a 25/32 socket.  I have no idea why, and I've always wondered
what it's for.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 10:58:43 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:58:43 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
Message-ID: <112820071758.10397.474DAC530001C4D90000289D220700164104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

a guy I used to work with used a 12.6(iirc)mm wrench for *years* noting how co-incidentally it fit a 1/2" nut...

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>

> I've got a 25/32 socket.  I have no idea why, and I've always wondered
> what it's for.

From nick at landform.co.uk  Wed Nov 28 11:25:59 2007
From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:25:59 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40711280949q400d4dc5j1ca6c42e69dc629a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com>
	<167503c10711250813r1d40d93dsed0095b9c699ee9f@mail.gmail.com>	
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711280952580.20278@mephisto.banklogic.net>	
	<474DA892.2090909@landform.co.uk>
	<2400a5d40711280949q400d4dc5j1ca6c42e69dc629a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474DB2B7.20307@landform.co.uk>

David Scheidt wrote:
> I've got a 25/32 socket.  I have no idea why, and I've always wondered
> what it's for.
>   
Hmm, worn 21mm nut?   :-)

Nick Brearley

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 11:27:19 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:27:19 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
Message-ID: <112820071827.28841.474DB307000D49D5000070A922070215539D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: scott.hall at comcast.net
> a guy I used to work with used a 12.6(iirc)mm wrench for *years* noting how 
> co-incidentally it fit a 1/2" nut...

Well, it's .004 undersize, but close enough for most, I suppose....

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 28 11:54:20 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:54:20 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
Message-ID: <006c01c831f0$160f4270$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Weird old stuff - sometimes certain plumbing fittings, sometimes square 
nuts, sometimes it's a surprise.  I've got a few 19/32 and 25/32 wrenches 
and I use one I use every year or two.  There are a few /32 and /64 sizes in 
really small wrenches (they come with comprehensive ignition wrench sets) 
that are occasionally needed too, usually for some old brass electrical nut 
or cap screw.

Karl


> I've got a 25/32 socket.  I have no idea why, and I've always wondered
> what it's for.
> -- 
> David Scheidt

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 28 12:03:15 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:03:15 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
References: <167503c10711240533i32cdaab1ie8ba1914667f166e@mail.gmail.com><167503c10711250813r1d40d93dsed0095b9c699ee9f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711280952580.20278@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <008701c831f1$553e1330$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Front bumper (maybe rear too?) brackets on a '93 Suburban.

Thanks to anti-lock brakes, my wife has given me 3 opportunities to change 
front bumpers on the poor old GMC.  Before the Suburban and its lovely 
anti-stop brakes, Jill had only one other accident in her life, when she was 
16.

Karl

> But be sure and post if you run across something that needs a 20mm socket.
>
> :-)
>
> Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 12:09:59 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:09:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set- missing sizes?
In-Reply-To: <006c01c831f0$160f4270$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <006c01c831f0$160f4270$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711281109g7945e70fh2ac969f5a457d8ec@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 28, 2007 1:54 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
> Weird old stuff - sometimes certain plumbing fittings, sometimes square
> nuts, sometimes it's a surprise.  I've got a few 19/32 and 25/32 wrenches
> and I use one I use every year or two.  There are a few /32 and /64 sizes in
> really small wrenches (they come with comprehensive ignition wrench sets)
> that are occasionally needed too, usually for some old brass electrical nut
> or cap screw.

19/32 is really close to 5/16W 3/8BS.  It's about 10 thou too small.
It works okay for it.

I think many of the small sized wrenches are to fit BA screws.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From pethier at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 12:43:02 2007
From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:43:02 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set  and Suburban issues
Message-ID: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>

From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> Front bumper (maybe rear too?) brackets on a '93 Suburban.
> 
> Thanks to anti-lock brakes, my wife has given me 3 opportunities to change 
> front bumpers on the poor old GMC.  Before the Suburban and its lovely 
> anti-stop brakes, Jill had only one other accident in her life, when she was 
> 16.

20mm, eh?

It so happens that I have a 1993 Chev Suburban (4x4) with ABS.  Never had a problem stopping it on dry pavement or slippery.  What's the problem?

Never had the reason to remove the bumpers on this one.  My previous 1986 Suburban had some wiring issues that required me to remove the rear bumper.  Because of the trailer hitch, I needed to remove the license plate and cut out a section behind it to reach everything.  I don't recall having any trouble finding a socket in my tool box, but I don't recall what size I needed.  I do recall that running an impact wrench caused me to be covered by a rainfall of The Oxides Formerly Known As Chevrolet.  Safety glasses are a must.

--
Phil Ethier  West Side  Saint Paul Minnesota  USA
1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban,
1994 Miata C package
pethier [at] comcast [dot] net    http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 13:20:10 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:20:10 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 28, 2007 2:43 PM,  <pethier at comcast.net> wrote:
> From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> > Front bumper (maybe rear too?) brackets on a '93 Suburban.
> >
> > Thanks to anti-lock brakes, my wife has given me 3 opportunities to change
> > front bumpers on the poor old GMC.  Before the Suburban and its lovely
> > anti-stop brakes, Jill had only one other accident in her life, when she was
> > 16.
>
> 20mm, eh?
>
> It so happens that I have a 1993 Chev Suburban (4x4) with ABS.  Never had a problem stopping it on dry pavement or slippery.  What's the problem?
>

My guess:  A combination of following too closely (Karl lives near
Chicago, right?  They ticket you if you keep a safe following
distance...) and fear of the brake pedal.  Lots of people get freaked
out by the pulsing pedal and noises that ABS makes when it starts to
work, so they let off the pedal.  That leads to vastly increased
stopping distances.
-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 28 13:57:53 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:57:53 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Jill has, I repeat, had only one other accident in her nearly 40 years of 
driving, that when she was 16.  And one of the ABS accidents was a t-bone of 
a Windstar going 40 on the cross street in a crowded suburban neighborhood. 
That driver got the ticket, we just got a bashed bumper.  But without ABS 
letting go of the brakes Jill might well have stopped in time.

The brakes release with little noise and little pedal sensation, and at 
moments that are mostly unexpected, like when hitting a tar strip or a tiny 
road irregularity while stopping on perfectly dry pavement.

Our '94 GT and '99 Cobra Mustangs have ABS, and while I still could stop 
faster without worrying about the ABS, at least they give some pedal 
feedback and it's easier to recognize that the brakes have released.  Far 
better system.

It may be the recommended technique, but I refuse to cultivate the reaction 
to blindly stomp down on the brake pedal after the ABS decides it's time to 
release.  How about just letting up on the brakes a bit when you sense 
slippage?

Worked when I raced in the SCCA and Midwest Council, when there was no ABS. 
Never missed the miracle of a computer thinking for me.  And talk about 
following closely - umm, you do that in a race car.  But everyone there is 
competent, and you can depend on what they're going to do (mostly).

Now I bet you'd disapprove that I turn off the traction control every time I 
start get in the Cobra too   ;-)

Karl




> My guess:  A combination of following too closely (Karl lives near
> Chicago, right?  They ticket you if you keep a safe following
> distance...) and fear of the brake pedal.  Lots of people get freaked
> out by the pulsing pedal and noises that ABS makes when it starts to
> work, so they let off the pedal.  That leads to vastly increased
> stopping distances.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 14:13:59 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:13:59 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711281313g1843cc90wa5b53d0330012a3e@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 28, 2007 3:57 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:

>
> Our '94 GT and '99 Cobra Mustangs have ABS, and while I still could stop
> faster without worrying about the ABS, at least they give some pedal
> feedback and it's easier to recognize that the brakes have released.  Far
> better system.
>
> It may be the recommended technique, but I refuse to cultivate the reaction
> to blindly stomp down on the brake pedal after the ABS decides it's time to
> release.  How about just letting up on the brakes a bit when you sense
> slippage?
>
The computer can do it a whole hell of a lot faster than you can, and
can do it one wheel at a time.
I very much doubt you can stop faster than good ABS.  (I don't think
GMs early ABS systems were very good, though.  For one thing, they're
only a three channel system, as i recall.  The rear axle is modulated
both sides together, instead of at each wheel.)




-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From rs1121 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 28 14:33:09 2007
From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:33:09 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set  and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <01c401c83206$489c6220$d9d52660$@net>

My suburban worked ok on dry, but on very slippery oil/rain combo or ice
conditions it was downright scary.  You could not stop in parking lots at
all no matter how hard you pressed the petal, you had to use the e brake or
slip it into park.  I had the system checked and they said it was supposed
to work that way, what a joke.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
pethier at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:43 PM
To: Karl Vacek; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues

From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> Front bumper (maybe rear too?) brackets on a '93 Suburban.
> 
> Thanks to anti-lock brakes, my wife has given me 3 opportunities to change

> front bumpers on the poor old GMC.  Before the Suburban and its lovely 
> anti-stop brakes, Jill had only one other accident in her life, when she
was 
> 16.

20mm, eh?

It so happens that I have a 1993 Chev Suburban (4x4) with ABS.  Never had a
problem stopping it on dry pavement or slippery.  What's the problem?

From clmautz at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 14:36:08 2007
From: clmautz at gmail.com (clmautz at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:36:08 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set  and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <01c401c83206$489c6220$d9d52660$@net>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><01c401c83206$489c6220$d9d52660$@net>
Message-ID: <mailman.11.1196285816.12553.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

They must have fixed it, as my '03 had no issues and I put 90k on it before trading...

This was an '03 LT1500 4x2.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ron Schmittou" <rs1121 at earthlink.net>

Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:33:09 
To:<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set  and Suburban issues


My suburban worked ok on dry, but on very slippery oil/rain combo or ice
conditions it was downright scary.  You could not stop in parking lots at
all no matter how hard you pressed the petal, you had to use the e brake or
slip it into park.  I had the system checked and they said it was supposed
to work that way, what a joke.

-----Original Message-----
From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
pethier at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:43 PM
To: Karl Vacek; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues

From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>
> Front bumper (maybe rear too?) brackets on a '93 Suburban.
> 
> Thanks to anti-lock brakes, my wife has given me 3 opportunities to change

> front bumpers on the poor old GMC.  Before the Suburban and its lovely 
> anti-stop brakes, Jill had only one other accident in her life, when she
was 
> 16.

20mm, eh?

It so happens that I have a 1993 Chev Suburban (4x4) with ABS.  Never had a
problem stopping it on dry pavement or slippery.  What's the problem?
_______________________________________________
clmautz at gmail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com  Wed Nov 28 14:37:26 2007
From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:37:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40711281313g1843cc90wa5b53d0330012a3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com><001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<2400a5d40711281313g1843cc90wa5b53d0330012a3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797A36D96@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>

David Scheidt
>
> The computer can do it a whole hell of a lot faster than
> you can, and can do it one wheel at a time.
> I very much doubt you can stop faster than good ABS.

Not only that, but in a panic situation, you tend to not be able to
threshold brake nearly as well.

There is a major difference between driving on the edge at a track where
you are expecting to manipulate the brakes right on the edge, and
suddenly need to slam on the brakes because some car has suddenly cut in
front of you.

In the daily driving scenario, the ABS is going to do a much better job
of stopping that you are.  On the track at 10/10ths, it may be a
different story.

Everyone should practice with their ABS system every now an then.  Take
the car up to around 60, and absolutely stand on the brake - get used to
the feel of the pedal vibrating, and keeping it there.

Tim Mullen

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Nov 28 15:05:09 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:05:09 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <000b01c8320a$bdf68290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> How about just letting up on the brakes a bit when 
> you sense slippage?

Then what exactly do you do when one or two wheels are slipping, but the
others are not ?  Use more pressure to bring the remaining wheels to their
optimum stopping power, while locking (and losing most of the stopping power
of) the other wheels ?  Or use less pressure to avoid locking the wheels
with less traction ?

I'm not a big fan of ABS myself, as it seems to slow down initial
application of the brakes.  But I don't think you can beat it when differing
conditions (including load distribution) change how much stopping power each
wheel can provide.

Likely this doesn't affect Jill; but I've noticed that most SUV drivers
around here pay no attention to the fact they are driving a 3 ton truck with
a high center of gravity, rather than a 1 ton car with a low center of
gravity.

Randall

From battmain at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 28 15:16:04 2007
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:16:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
Message-ID: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I have an '01 GMC 4x4 that I use to tow the race car. It's the design
of the system. I can create the issue at will at a local toll booth. I
am _not_ hard on the brake. Barely even 25% when the the tires
hit the lip of the cement patch for the toll booth. Speed 5-10mph.
It feels as if I released the brakes.  Keeping the same brake pedal 
makes the problem worse as I've found. If there are no bumps, it 
works like it is supposed to. Obviously pressing harder makes it even
worse. :) The work around for me is to let up off the pedal
when I go over the bump. 

Brian
battmain at yahoo.com

----- Original Message ----
From: David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com
(snip)
My guess:  A combination of following too closely (Karl lives near
Chicago, right?  They ticket you if you keep a safe following
distance...) and fear of the brake pedal.  Lots of people get freaked
out by the pulsing pedal and noises that ABS makes when it starts to
work, so they let off the pedal.  That leads to vastly increased
stopping distances.
(snip)


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. 
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 28 15:24:01 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:24:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com><001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<000b01c8320a$bdf68290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>
Message-ID: <002701c8320d$611e04a0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

She grew up driving pickups and tractors in the South, so she can handle the 
Suburban, and she's driven most of the 160,000 miles since we bought it used 
10 years ago.  And she's got both a Midget and a motorcycle license, so 
she's sensitive to smaller vehicles.

Seriously - drive an older Suburban and tell me there's some way to safely 
handle the brakes other than increasing your interval behind the car ahead - 
drastically.  With the way people drive nowadays it's hard, but we have to 
do it.  Ever notice that the lever that used to be called the turn signal 
lever is now the "please speed up and cut me off" lever ?  That gets us to 
the back of the pack real fast...


> Likely this doesn't affect Jill; but I've noticed that most SUV drivers
> around here pay no attention to the fact they are driving a 3 ton truck 
> with
> a high center of gravity, rather than a 1 ton car with a low center of
> gravity.
>
> Randall 

From clmautz at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 15:35:09 2007
From: clmautz at gmail.com (clmautz at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:35:09 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <002701c8320d$611e04a0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com><001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL><000b01c8320a$bdf68290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><002701c8320d$611e04a0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <mailman.12.1196289355.12553.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

My '03 suburban stopped WAY better than my '01 dodge ram 1500 4x2!!!  That thing couldn't stop if it wanted to - on a dry day...

Classic mopar, though, all engine and no brakes.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Karl Vacek" <kvacek at ameritech.net>

Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:24:01 
Cc:<shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues


She grew up driving pickups and tractors in the South, so she can handle the 
Suburban, and she's driven most of the 160,000 miles since we bought it used 
10 years ago.  And she's got both a Midget and a motorcycle license, so 
she's sensitive to smaller vehicles.

Seriously - drive an older Suburban and tell me there's some way to safely 
handle the brakes other than increasing your interval behind the car ahead - 
drastically.  With the way people drive nowadays it's hard, but we have to 
do it.  Ever notice that the lever that used to be called the turn signal 
lever is now the "please speed up and cut me off" lever ?  That gets us to 
the back of the pack real fast...


> Likely this doesn't affect Jill; but I've noticed that most SUV drivers
> around here pay no attention to the fact they are driving a 3 ton truck 
> with
> a high center of gravity, rather than a 1 ton car with a low center of
> gravity.
>
> Randall 
_______________________________________________
clmautz at gmail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From jblair1948 at cox.net  Wed Nov 28 15:48:06 2007
From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:48:06 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797A36D96@XMBIL103.northgrum. com>
References: <2400a5d40711281313g1843cc90wa5b53d0330012a3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<2400a5d40711281313g1843cc90wa5b53d0330012a3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071128174806.00a15768@pop.east.cox.net>

Tim wrote:

>Everyone should practice with their ABS system every now an then.  Take
>the car up to around 60, and absolutely stand on the brake - get used to
>the feel of the pedal vibrating, and keeping it there....

That would be great, but where?  Around here, that will get you killed.
But I do agree that people need to learn what it's like.  I just got my
1st car with ABS, and I've been driving for about 40+ yrs.

As someone else said, I'm not a fan of ABS.  It's up to the driver to 
know the conditions, and drive accordingly.

When I was a kid, we had 1 dirt road in town that wasn't traveled much.  I 
took my cars out there where you could slide them around to learn how 
to control different situations.  Most people can't do that any more.

Brian
>I can create the issue at will at a local toll booth. I
>am _not_ hard on the brake. Barely even 25% when the the tires
>hit the lip of the cement patch for the toll booth. Speed 5-10mph.
>It feels as if I released the brakes.  Keeping the same brake pedal 
>makes the problem worse as I've found....

Got to love all the technology.  Not to mention air bags.

I really think that all this new crap on the cars isn't helping.  The
more stuff the car companies do to try and make the cars safer, the
worse the drivers get.  Between I've got insurance, with all the air
bags I can't get hurt, and ABS I get hit anything, it appears that more
and more drivers are driving a lot worse.  Let some of these tailgaters
try driving a car without power brakes and see what happens.

The gov. or any group can't legislate intelligence and safety.  I was
just in the junkyard the other day.  All the late model cars there just
torn all to hell.  Many looked like someone had to have died in them.

John


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ     email:  jblair1948 at cox.net
Va. Beach, Va             
Phone:  (757) 495-8229

          48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget    65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106)
     75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887)    77 Spitfire    71 Saab Sonett III
                       65 Rambler Classic

Morgan:    www.team.net/www/morgan
Bricklin:  www.bricklin.org

If you can read this             - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!!

From tr3driver at ca.rr.com  Wed Nov 28 16:33:06 2007
From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:33:06 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c83217$076b2c80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com>

> It feels as if I released the brakes.

My GM ABS acts nothing like that (95 Buick Roadmaster wagon).  It takes a
whole lot of pedal to get into the ABS, and then the off/on cycle is very
short.

Got into it just today, when a Jimmy ran a stop sign and startled me.
Stomped the pedal with every intention of locking them up, but only got a
little chirp before it felt like the whole car jumped about 6" then stopped
short.  Granted I wasn't going very fast but it only moved a few feet
between when the brakes grabbed and when it stopped.  Stayed out of the
Jimmy's way, too.

Last time I was towing a Sports 6 on the club trailer (single axle, no
brakes) on I-5 when someone cut me off and stopped.  High frequency
vibration, much faster than a flat tire (but otherwise similar).  And from
my previous experiences towing with wagons without ABS, I have no doubt it
stopped me faster than I could have by myself (at least with that trailer
shoving me down the road).

Randall

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Wed Nov 28 16:40:27 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:40:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Battmain wrote:
> I have an '01 GMC 4x4 that I use to tow the race car. It's the design of 
> the system. I can create the issue at will at a local toll booth. I am 
> _not_ hard on the brake. Barely even 25% when the the tires hit the lip 
> of the cement patch for the toll booth. Speed 5-10mph. It feels as if I 
> released the brakes.  Keeping the same brake pedal makes the problem 
> worse as I've found. If there are no bumps, it works like it is supposed 
> to. Obviously pressing harder makes it even worse. :) The work around 
> for me is to let up off the pedal when I go over the bump.

Sounds like some version of ice mode... I ran into this a lot with a 2001 
z06 in autocross... Brake for a corner one time, they work fine.  Next 
time, the pedal pushes back and braking power is dramatically reduced.

Only fix, without changing parts, is to come off the pedal and out of the 
abs, then back in again.

A regular driver isn't going to beat good abs.  A regular driver may very 
well be able to beat crap abs.  Crap abs won't cause an accident unless 
you're already doing something wrong (IMHO).

Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Wed Nov 28 17:00:04 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:00:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS ( was Re: Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues )
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20071128184248.O4945@itonami.pair.com>

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Mark Andy wrote:
> A regular driver isn't going to beat good abs.  A regular driver may very
> well be able to beat crap abs.  Crap abs won't cause an accident unless
> you're already doing something wrong (IMHO).

    You might be surprised, there are some really crappy systems out there. 
Subaru has an ice-mode issue that was so bad, even up through at least the 
'03 model year, that they were forced ( by accidents and lawsuits ) to 
issue a covert recall ( they called it a 'voluntary service campaign' ) on 
their ABS controller.  If you hit a significant bump while stopping in our 
WRX, the brakes were essentially turned-off, until you got back out of 
the pedal for something like a half-second.  That's particularly uncool 
since for a decade or so now, everybody has been preaching to stand on the 
brakes, and let the car figure it out.  If you do that in ice-mode, you 
will basically coast to a stop... or be more rudely interrupted.

    A regular driver may not beat good ABS, but a good driver will tie with 
good ABS all day long.  ABS only helps when you've already screwed up, by 
definition.

    Personally, I can't get into ABS in any vehicle, unless I consciously 
try to.  After ice-racing ( without ABS obviously ) for years, 'stomp the 
brakes' isn't in my feets' vocabulary.  Now that we tripled the power in 
our iceracer, I'm developing a more gentle throttle foot, too ;)

--
  David Hillman

From jibjib at att.net  Wed Nov 28 19:10:15 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:10:15 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797A36D96@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com><001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL><2400a5d40711281313g1843cc90wa5b53d0330012a3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797A36D96@XMBIL103.northgrum.com>
Message-ID: <000301c8322c$fc16ed90$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

Tim wrote:
Everyone should practice with their ABS system every now an then.  Take the
car up to around 60, and absolutely stand on the brake - get used to the
feel of the pedal vibrating, and keeping it there.


Tim,

I did that tonight as I was exiting the highway, just to remember where the
threshold was in the wet.  I have to really push my wife to slam them hard
enough to get comfortable with it, but we do.  It's good for all of us.

Jack

From carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 07:25:45 2007
From: carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com (Carl Lindahl)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:25:45 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues
In-Reply-To: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bd8f7d710711290625hf057396xf1f2b89afdec9cff@mail.gmail.com>

Interisting note you said this. When you go over the bump, some of the newer
ABS computers can sense the speed change for a minute second in the front
vs. rear wheels and will engage. I have a 1997 S10 pickup that there is a
bump in the road right before a perticular stop light and I can get the ABS
to function w/ almost no pedal effort every time over that bump as soon as
the rear axle passes and changes wheel speed, either slower or faster for a
minute second ;)


I also have a 1993 Ford Taurus if I'm really in the brakes for the stop
light (its sort of around a curve) I can get the ABS to kick in, but it is
alot more rare. S10 is almost 100% of  the time


On 11/28/07, Battmain <battmain at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have an '01 GMC 4x4 that I use to tow the race car. It's the design
> of the system. I can create the issue at will at a local toll booth. I
> am _not_ hard on the brake. Barely even 25% when the the tires
> hit the lip of the cement patch for the toll booth. Speed 5-10mph.
> It feels as if I released the brakes.  Keeping the same brake pedal
> makes the problem worse as I've found. If there are no bumps, it
> works like it is supposed to. Obviously pressing harder makes it even
> worse. :) The work around for me is to let up off the pedal
> when I go over the bump.
>
> Brian
> battmain at yahoo.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com
> (snip)
> My guess:  A combination of following too closely (Karl lives near
> Chicago, right?  They ticket you if you keep a safe following
> distance...) and fear of the brake pedal.  Lots of people get freaked
> out by the pulsing pedal and noises that ABS makes when it starts to
> work, so they let off the pedal.  That leads to vastly increased
> stopping distances.
> (snip)
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
> Make Yahoo! your homepage.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Nov 29 07:27:08 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:27:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues;
 the  nut behind the wheel
In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com>
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b001c83293$ecec0050$c6c400f0$@mele@usermail.com>

Ahhh, finally a chance to talk about the nut behind the
wheel!!! ( no offense to wives or any other specific nut...)

As Chief Classroom Instructor for the Tarheel Chapter of the
BMW Club (whew!) I can confirm that our students who have
already voted with their wallet that they are interested in
driving really have no clue how to use the brake pedal...or
any other control on the car.  The engineers at one auto
manuf (can't remember) responded to a plea for "more
performance" by saying that the average driver doesn't even
use half of the car's capabilities as produced now.  
With our Teen program, we've had a 90% reduction of
accidents after just one 8-hr day in a parking lot with some
cones;  we basically show them the limits of whatever their
car is, and what it feels like to "be there".  Most of
parents come by and tell me something to the effect that
"I've been driving for 20 years, and I wouldn't believe that
the car could do that..."
EVERYONE should find a local driver's school and spend a few
weekends there.  Fewer bumper repairs will seem trivial
compared to the reduction in trips to the butcher shop where
I worked for so many years..


I'll get off the podium now.  

PM


>
> It so happens that I have a 1993 Chev Suburban (4x4) with
ABS.  Never had a problem stopping it on dry pavement or
slippery.  What's the problem?
>

My guess:  A combination of following too closely (Karl
lives near
Chicago, right?  They ticket you if you keep a safe
following
distance...) and fear of the brake pedal.  Lots of people
get freaked
out by the pulsing pedal and noises that ABS makes when it
starts to
work, so they let off the pedal.  That leads to vastly
increased
stopping distances.
-- 

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Thu Nov 29 07:43:13 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:43:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS ( was Re: Craftsman impact set and Suburban
 issues )
In-Reply-To: <20071128184248.O4945@itonami.pair.com>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071128184248.O4945@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711290941390.10851@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, David Hillman wrote:
>    A regular driver may not beat good ABS, but a good driver will tie 
> with good ABS all day long.  ABS only helps when you've already screwed 
> up, by definition.
>
>    Personally, I can't get into ABS in any vehicle, unless I consciously 
> try to.  After ice-racing ( without ABS obviously ) for years, 'stomp 
> the brakes' isn't in my feets' vocabulary.  Now that we tripled the 
> power in our iceracer, I'm developing a more gentle throttle foot, too 
> ;)

I find ABS to be the most helpful when I'm entering a corner trailbraking, 
and I want the outside front wheel to be braking at max capacity rather 
than the inside front wheel.

You can't do that without ABS in most cars (perhaps all, but I don't know 
what some crazy race engineer might have figured out).

Mark

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Nov 29 08:17:58 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:17:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS ( was Re: Craftsman impact set and Suburban
 issues )
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711290941390.10851@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071128184248.O4945@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711290941390.10851@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20071129100811.U92214@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Mark Andy wrote:
> I find ABS to be the most helpful when I'm entering a corner trailbraking,
> and I want the outside front wheel to be braking at max capacity rather
> than the inside front wheel.

    I hear that from people often, but IMO that's ABS allowing you to make 
a mistake.  If you (general) are max-braking that far into a corner, I'm 
passing you on the way out, 'cause I've been off the brakes and on the 
throttle since right after turning-in.

    There are some scenarios ( usually poorly-setup front-diggers ) that 
encourage hanging onto the brakes after turn-in to unweight the rear and 
slide it around, but the max-braking through the first-half of the corner 
like you're talking about is going to be slow.

--
  David Hillman

From mark at sccaprepared.com  Thu Nov 29 08:57:30 2007
From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:57:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS ( was Re: Craftsman impact set and Suburban
 issues )
In-Reply-To: <20071129100811.U92214@itonami.pair.com>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071128184248.O4945@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711290941390.10851@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071129100811.U92214@itonami.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711291054330.18720@mephisto.banklogic.net>

Howdy,

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, David Hillman wrote:
>> I find ABS to be the most helpful when I'm entering a corner trailbraking,
>> and I want the outside front wheel to be braking at max capacity rather
>> than the inside front wheel.
>
>    I hear that from people often, but IMO that's ABS allowing you to 
> make a mistake.  If you (general) are max-braking that far into a 
> corner, I'm passing you on the way out, 'cause I've been off the brakes 
> and on the throttle since right after turning-in.
>
>    There are some scenarios ( usually poorly-setup front-diggers ) that 
> encourage hanging onto the brakes after turn-in to unweight the rear and 
> slide it around, but the max-braking through the first-half of the 
> corner like you're talking about is going to be slow.

Spending time when you're not at max acceleration, max braking, or max 
cornering is rarely the fastest way around the track...

With swaybars and all, you don't need to be wanting to brake much before 
that inside front will lock.  ABS stops that.  There's a difference 
between trail braking and missing the apex.

Mark

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Thu Nov 29 09:47:42 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:47:42 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
Message-ID: <112920071647.3576.474EED2E000E88AF00000DF8220702293304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

wandered into a pawn shop next to a client yesterday.  they've got a new-ish looking set of harris gas gauges and a torch for $98 (or$89).  I've been wanting to practice gas welding and get better/good at it.  is harris good stuff, or should I stay with...oh, I forgot the name but you know, the big name guys?

they've got an al. blue point 'race' jack.  I need a new floor jack anyway, but it's a little scuffed up and it's a 1.5 ton capacity.  I guess the question there is has anybody had to rebuild one of these, and was it okay (i.e., can I get parts, and get them from somebody that speaks english)?  and if you've got one, do you like it?

thanks.

scott

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Thu Nov 29 11:10:01 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:10:01 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
Message-ID: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

Harris IS a big name in gas welding equipment - an old firm.  Most welding
supply shops will have parts.

That said, it's a much better deal if the regulators are two-stage.  If it
looks like there's another regulator (built in) in the back - (the adjustment
handle side is the front) then they're probably two stage.  If the backs are
pretty flat, they're probably single-stage.  Once you see both, it'll be
obvious to you.  If you have time, get a number off of them and call a welding
supply shop to find out the availability of parts, whether they're two-stage,
etc.

Single-stage regulators are fine, but you'll have to readjust the pressure
every so often while welding.  Not a terrible thing for casual use, but a
bother.  Two-stage is well worth a few bucks more, especially for fine (i.e.
thin stuff) welding.

Also, if the regulators are the tiny type, like used with MIG or TIG welders,
be aware that they may not flow enough to handle larger tips - fine for a
small torch though.  If they're the "regular" size, you'll be fine.  Hose is
cheap, so don't worry about that.  Make sure to buy anti-flowback check valves
too - they're not expensive if they're not included with the set.

At $89 or $98 for the set, even with single-stage regulators it's an OK deal
if it all looks nice and doesn't need many parts.  But new stuff isn't
exorbitant either - check with a welding supply and see what deals they may
have.  Buy a good brand like Victor or Harris and you will never have to throw
them away.  Regulators and torches last almost forever.

About tanks.  It's generally the best deal to own your tanks, and I recommend
you get the usual sizes, like a 125 cubic foot oxygen and (I forget the
capacity) the matching acetylene tank.  If you rent, it winds up costing a ton
over a few years.  Buying tanks in this case, by the way, is essentially
buying into an exchange system.  You own rights to a set of tanks, but you
exchange them rather than getting your specific tanks refilled and returned to
you.  It's immediate and convenient, and hydrotesting testing is included in
the exchange price.  If you buy this way, KEEP THE RECEIPT.

The cute little portable tanks are fine if you need the portability, but
you'll run through them quickly and they cost almost as much to refill as the
regular size.  With the portable tanks, you buy a specific pair of tanks and
have them refilled (not immediate - it usually takes a day or two and of
course two trips to the gas supplier), and you have to pay for hydrotesting
every 5 years.

Karl




> wandered into a pawn shop next to a client yesterday.  they've got a
> new-ish looking set of harris gas gauges and a torch for $98 (or$89).
> I've been wanting to practice gas welding and get better/good at it.  is
> harris good stuff, or should I stay with...oh, I forgot the name but you
> know, the big name guys?

From matt.lists at trebelhorn.com  Thu Nov 29 09:14:21 2007
From: matt.lists at trebelhorn.com (Matt Trebelhorn)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:14:21 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS ( was Re: Craftsman impact set and Suburban
 issues )
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711290941390.10851@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071128184248.O4945@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711290941390.10851@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <53E1A8EC-BB9B-4DC3-9176-C4FCDF1B0F4F@trebelhorn.com>

That's exactly the point at which a poorly-designed ABS system will  
engage ice mode, and release the brakes on all four wheels.

I seem to remember the latest Toyota MR2 doing that in autox trim...

On 29 Nov, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Mark Andy wrote:
> I find ABS to be the most helpful when I'm entering a corner  
> trailbraking,
> and I want the outside front wheel to be braking at max capacity  
> rather
> than the inside front wheel.
>
> You can't do that without ABS in most cars (perhaps all, but I  
> don't know
> what some crazy race engineer might have figured out).
>
> Mark

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 11:54:54 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:54:54 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <112920071647.3576.474EED2E000E88AF00000DF8220702293304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <112920071647.3576.474EED2E000E88AF00000DF8220702293304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711291054p78abf472x8f71fbd9217bcdac@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 29, 2007 11:47 AM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> wandered into a pawn shop next to a client yesterday. they've got a
> new-ish looking set of harris gas gauges and a torch for $98 (or$89).
> I've been wanting to practice gas welding and get better/good at it. is
> harris good stuff, or should I stay with...oh, I forgot the name but
> you know, the big name guys?

Harris are a big name.  They're now owned by Lincoln Electric, but I
think they're still making good stuff.  My gas stuff is all Harris,
except probably hoses.  You need to figure which model it is, and see
if it's a good deal.  Harris make a huge range of stuff, and not all
of it are as capable.  There are a large number of torch bodies, which
have varying capacities, and a shockingly large number of cutting
torch mixing bodies, which all use different types of tips.



> they've got an al. blue point 'race' jack.  I need a new floor jack
> anyway, but it's a little scuffed up and it's a 1.5 ton capacity.  I
> guess the question there is has anybody had to rebuild one of these,
> and was it okay (i.e., can I get parts, and get them from somebody that
> speaks english)? and if you've got one, do you like it?

Blue Point is Snap-On's off-brand brand.  I'm sure they'd sell you
parts.  But I'm also sure that you can get the same jack new for less
-- I'm pretty sure it's the same jack HF and others flog.

Daivd

From LSAPEX at aol.com  Thu Nov 29 12:07:48 2007
From: LSAPEX at aol.com (LSAPEX at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:07:48 EST
Subject: [Shop-talk] Shop-talk Digest, Vol 1, Issue 207
Message-ID: <d24.179cef61.34806804@aol.com>

I think the biggest draw back with ABS at a track is "in a spin two  feet in" 
doesn't work so well.

> I find ABS to be the most helpful when I'm entering a corner  trailbraking,
> and I want the outside front wheel to be braking  at max capacity rather
> than the inside front  wheel.





Les
apexautoeng.com





**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

From hillman at planet-torque.com  Thu Nov 29 12:18:31 2007
From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:18:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS ( was Re: Craftsman impact set and Suburban
 issues )
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711291054330.18720@mephisto.banklogic.net>
References: <850085.74272.qm@web57012.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711281837550.30959@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071128184248.O4945@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711290941390.10851@mephisto.banklogic.net>
	<20071129100811.U92214@itonami.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0711291054330.18720@mephisto.banklogic.net>
Message-ID: <20071129135126.X90790@itonami.pair.com>

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Mark Andy wrote:
> Spending time when you're not at max acceleration, max braking, or max
> cornering is rarely the fastest way around the track...
>
> With swaybars and all, you don't need to be wanting to brake much before
> that inside front will lock.  ABS stops that.

    But it's still slower, for a reason you touched on in your first 
sentence.  Ideally, we want to be at max acceleration all the time. 
Obviously, we occasionally have to slow down, but when we do, we want to 
use the bare minimum of time doing so.  All cars will stop faster in a 
straight line than they will while cornering ( for reasons already 
covered in this thread ) so the optimal lap will consist only of 
braking in a straight line.

    My last two autocrossers were a '91 MR2 Turbo without ABS and a '92 MR2 
Turbo with.  Despite the fact that the '92 had a stronger engine, and 
better tires ( and a little more weight ) I was faster in the '91.  Why? 
Because years of driving mid-engined cars without ABS had trained me to 
always brake in a straight line, so I was always early on the throttle 
and as Senna said, "In the end, it's always a matter of less brake, and 
more throttle."  In the '92 with ABS, I got seduced into trying to drive 
deeper into corners and brake while corning.  It felt faster... but it 
wasn't.  I didn't really realize how much I was doing it until I compared 
some in-car video from each car.  Once I swore off that mistake, I 
regained the speed I'd been missing.

    Braking beyond the point where your hands have stopped turning the 
wheel is almost always a mistake, sometimes required by a poor setup.

--
  David Hillman

From paul.mele at usermail.com  Thu Nov 29 13:16:46 2007
From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:16:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <00d501c832c4$c489e790$4d9db6b0$@mele@usermail.com>

I'll second virtually everything Karl has said here.  I
learned gas welding on sheet metal in a body shop in the
early 1970's (where I coincidently learned about BMWs...).
It's a great skill to have; actually welding is only a small
part of the utility to a car nut; removing rusty nuts is by
itself worth the cost of the setup and learning.  Bending/
shaping/ re-shaping also a big plus for the hobbyist, esp
for older cars, track junkies.  Fabrication of new stuff
also feasible, but here's where a MIG is faster, easier,
better if you're doing a frame/ trailer, dolly, etc.  I own
3 gas set-ups...all over 30 yrs old, and going strong.
Rubber/ diaphragm rebuilds on the reg's is the only
long-term maint; hoses will also dry/ crack. Again, follow
Karl's advice..
PM


<<gas welding>>

Harris IS a big name in gas welding equipment - an old firm.
Most welding
supply shops will have parts.

That said, it's a much better deal if the regulators are
two-stage.  If it
looks like there's another regulator (built in) in the back
- (the adjustment
handle side is the front) then they're probably two stage.
If the backs are
pretty flat, they're probably single-stage.  Once you see
both, it'll be
obvious to you.  If you have time, get a number off of them
and call a welding
supply shop to find out the availability of parts, whether
they're two-stage,
etc.

Single-stage regulators are fine, but you'll have to
readjust the pressure
every so often while welding.  Not a terrible thing for
casual use, but a
bother.  Two-stage is well worth a few bucks more,
especially for fine (i.e.
thin stuff) welding.

Also, if the regulators are the tiny type, like used with
MIG or TIG welders,
be aware that they may not flow enough to handle larger tips
- fine for a
small torch though.  If they're the "regular" size, you'll
be fine.  Hose is
cheap, so don't worry about that.  Make sure to buy
anti-flowback check valves
too - they're not expensive if they're not included with the
set.

At $89 or $98 for the set, even with single-stage regulators
it's an OK deal
if it all looks nice and doesn't need many parts.  But new
stuff isn't
exorbitant either - check with a welding supply and see what
deals they may
have.  Buy a good brand like Victor or Harris and you will
never have to throw
them away.  Regulators and torches last almost forever.

About tanks.  It's generally the best deal to own your
tanks, and I recommend
you get the usual sizes, like a 125 cubic foot oxygen and (I
forget the
capacity) the matching acetylene tank.  If you rent, it
winds up costing a ton
over a few years.  Buying tanks in this case, by the way, is
essentially
buying into an exchange system.  You own rights to a set of
tanks, but you
exchange them rather than getting your specific tanks
refilled and returned to
you.  It's immediate and convenient, and hydrotesting
testing is included in
the exchange price.  If you buy this way, KEEP THE RECEIPT.

The cute little portable tanks are fine if you need the
portability, but
you'll run through them quickly and they cost almost as much
to refill as the
regular size.  With the portable tanks, you buy a specific
pair of tanks and
have them refilled (not immediate - it usually takes a day
or two and of
course two trips to the gas supplier), and you have to pay
for hydrotesting
every 5 years.

Karl




> wandered into a pawn shop next to a client yesterday.
they've got a
> new-ish looking set of harris gas gauges and a torch for
$98 (or$89).
> I've been wanting to practice gas welding and get
better/good at it.  is
> harris good stuff, or should I stay with...oh, I forgot
the name but you
> know, the big name guys?
_______________________________________________
paul.mele at usermail.com

Shop-talk mailing list

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Thu Nov 29 14:00:38 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:00:38 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
Message-ID: <112920072100.1286.474F2876000CB25A00000506220075894204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I never got the snap-on/blue point thing (sometimes the b.p. stuff seems identical to the snap-on so in that case, is it the 'second' quality?  other times, it's obviously just a re-badged other brand.  the only consistent thing I've noticed with the two is the shocking price off the truck.  I was wondering if the jack is a snap-on only thing (which means parts will be steep, if available), or if I could buy them from the oem.

searching online turns up differing opinions--it may or may not be the jack offered at pep-boys as a torin brand.  more research needed.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>

> Blue Point is Snap-On's off-brand brand.  I'm sure they'd sell you
> parts.  But I'm also sure that you can get the same jack new for less
> -- I'm pretty sure it's the same jack HF and others flog.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 16:07:40 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:07:40 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <112920072100.1286.474F2876000CB25A00000506220075894204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <112920072100.1286.474F2876000CB25A00000506220075894204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711291507m63c346efo41cd25adcf37f3b0@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 29, 2007 4:00 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> I never got the snap-on/blue point thing (sometimes the b.p. stuff
seems identical to the snap-on so in that case, is it the 'second'
quality? other times, it's obviously just a re-badged other brand. the
only consistent thing I've noticed with the two is the shocking price off
the truck.  I was wondering if the jack is a snap-on only thing (which
means parts will be steep, if available), or if I could buy them from the
oem.

Blue-point is usually rebadged stuff from someone else.  They used to
make tools; I don't know if they're a company Snap-on acquired, or one
that they developed.  One thing is that Snap-On branded hand tools are
mostly made in the US.  Most Blue Point stuff is made in Asia.

The prices are certainly shocking, most of the time.  There are some
things that are reasonably priced (only 200% of what they'd cost else
where.)

>
> searching online turns up differing opinions--it may or may not be the jack offered at pep-boys as a torin brand.  more research needed.

I've seen about a dozen brands for these aluminum racing jacks, but
only two or three different models.  I really think they all come out
of the same factory.
>


-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From scott.hall at comcast.net  Thu Nov 29 16:54:10 2007
From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:54:10 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
Message-ID: <112920072354.183.474F5122000BC021000000B7220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>

I bought it--they offered me a good deal (cheaper than I could have bought the hf/sears/pepboys one, anyway).  I think I wanna bleed it to make sure it's okay.  anybody know how to do that on a floor jack?  never tried it before.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David Scheidt" <dmscheidt at gmail.com>

> I've seen about a dozen brands for these aluminum racing jacks, but
> only two or three different models.  I really think they all come out
> of the same factory.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 17:09:52 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:09:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <112920072354.183.474F5122000BC021000000B7220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
References: <112920072354.183.474F5122000BC021000000B7220076219404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711291609v6ddb9788q576a4652550a631e@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 29, 2007 6:54 PM,  <scott.hall at comcast.net> wrote:
> I bought it--they offered me a good deal (cheaper than I could have bought the hf/sears/pepboys one, anyway).  I think I wanna bleed it to make sure it's okay.  anybody know how to do that on a floor jack?  never tried it before.
>

Go look at the HF manual.  They're all online, and generally actually
written in american english.




-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Nov 30 18:00:17 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:00:17 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

 Karl wrote:
About tanks.  It's generally the best deal to own your tanks.

*****
Yes, exchanging tanks is great, it puts all of the responsibility for
testing, etc. on the gas supply company, but it really sucks, the first time
you take your brand spanking new tank in for exchange and get a rusty old
beater tank in exchange.  <grin>

Jack

From kvacek at ameritech.net  Fri Nov 30 19:41:17 2007
From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:41:17 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>

That's why you usually buy the tank from the dealer in the first place - you 
get a rusty old beater tank in the first place and never have any higher 
expectations  ;-)

Did you actually buy NEW regular-sized tanks ?/  I'm not sure I've ever seen 
really new tanks, except the little portable ones.  I thought they were made 
by gnomes in the forest, and then beaten up and rusted on the way to the gas 
supplier the first time !!

Karl





> Yes, exchanging tanks is great, it puts all of the responsibility for
> testing, etc. on the gas supply company, but it really sucks, the first 
> time
> you take your brand spanking new tank in for exchange and get a rusty old
> beater tank in exchange.  <grin>
>
> Jack

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 20:36:50 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:36:50 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711301936w57c1abffu14d56709f8a8211@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 30, 2007 9:41 PM, Karl Vacek <kvacek at ameritech.net> wrote:
> That's why you usually buy the tank from the dealer in the first place - you
> get a rusty old beater tank in the first place and never have any higher
> expectations  ;-)
>
> Did you actually buy NEW regular-sized tanks ?/  I'm not sure I've ever seen
> really new tanks, except the little portable ones.  I thought they were made
> by gnomes in the forest, and then beaten up and rusted on the way to the gas
> supplier the first time !!
>

I did.  The supplier had them sitting on the dock.  I think they do it
for all the bottles they sell, actually.  The expected lifetime of a
gas cylinder is something like 100 years, would you believe?


> Karl
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes, exchanging tanks is great, it puts all of the responsibility for
> > testing, etc. on the gas supply company, but it really sucks, the first
> > time
> > you take your brand spanking new tank in for exchange and get a rusty old
> > beater tank in exchange.  <grin>
> >
> > Jack
> _______________________________________________
> dmscheidt at gmail.com
>
> Shop-talk mailing list
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk
>



-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From jibjib at att.net  Fri Nov 30 21:11:57 2007
From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:11:57 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>

<LOL>  Yeah, I bought it new from a shop that refilled on site, so I just
assumed I'd always have my pretty new cylinder.  I moved and all the shops
here swap because they don't fill on site.  I do believe they sell the gnome
created tanks.  I do miss my shiny new tank though.  <sniff, sniff>

Jack  

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Vacek [mailto:kvacek at ameritech.net] 
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:41 PM
To: Jack Brooks; shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?



That's why you usually buy the tank from the dealer in the first place - you
get a rusty old beater tank in the first place and never have any higher
expectations  ;-)

Did you actually buy NEW regular-sized tanks ?/  I'm not sure I've ever seen
really new tanks, except the little portable ones.  I thought they were made
by gnomes in the forest, and then beaten up and rusted on the way to the gas
supplier the first time !!

Karl





> Yes, exchanging tanks is great, it puts all of the responsibility for 
> testing, etc. on the gas supply company, but it really sucks, the 
> first time you take your brand spanking new tank in for exchange and 
> get a rusty old beater tank in exchange.  <grin>
>
> Jack

From doug at dougbraun.com  Fri Nov 30 22:06:42 2007
From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:06:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
Message-ID: <619966.16641.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In New Jersey, there is apparently only one acetylene
filling station, and all the welding shops send the
cylinders there to get refilled.  So when I need a
fill, I get my own new nice-looking oxygen cylinder
refilled, and I exchange one beat-up acetylene
cylinder for another.

Doug


--- Jack Brooks <jibjib at att.net> wrote:

>  Karl wrote:
> About tanks.  It's generally the best deal to own
> your tanks.
> 
> *****
> Yes, exchanging tanks is great, it puts all of the
> responsibility for
> testing, etc. on the gas supply company, but it
> really sucks, the first time
> you take your brand spanking new tank in for
> exchange and get a rusty old
> beater tank in exchange.  <grin>

From shiples at comcast.net  Fri Nov 30 22:13:28 2007
From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:13:28 -0800
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
References: <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net>

At 08:11 PM 11/30/2007 -0800, Jack Brooks wrote:
><LOL>  Yeah, I bought it new from a shop that refilled on site, so I just
>assumed I'd always have my pretty new cylinder.  I moved and all the shops
>here swap because they don't fill on site.  I do believe they sell the gnome
>created tanks.  I do miss my shiny new tank though.  <sniff, sniff>

I exchanged for a new oxygen tank this year.  Fresh paint, shiny brass,
and even new rubber bands so the tanks don't clang together.

Gives me the same feeling when I *win* a dollar after spending
two dollars on a lottery ticket.  Just call me lucky.

I should probably call the marketing department at Praxair and tell
'em they should put contest codes under the caps.

From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 22:32:03 2007
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:32:03 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net>
References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2400a5d40711302132k2ba8538bsa26a6722dd2a2014@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2007 12:13 AM, Steve Shipley <shiples at comcast.net> wrote:
> At 08:11 PM 11/30/2007 -0800, Jack Brooks wrote:
> ><LOL>  Yeah, I bought it new from a shop that refilled on site, so I just
> >assumed I'd always have my pretty new cylinder.  I moved and all the shops
> >here swap because they don't fill on site.  I do believe they sell the gnome
> >created tanks.  I do miss my shiny new tank though.  <sniff, sniff>
>
> I exchanged for a new oxygen tank this year.  Fresh paint, shiny brass,
> and even new rubber bands so the tanks don't clang together.
>

Was it new, or just a new valve?  They don't last forever.  I've got a
size larger tank on my MIG welder than I bought, because I got an
exchange tank that didn't work, and when I took it back, they didn't
have any the right size.

-- 
David Scheidt
dmscheidt at gmail.com

From trevor at boicey.com  Fri Nov 30 23:19:53 2007
From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 01:19:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
	<00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion>
	<003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL>
Message-ID: <4750FD09.7070603@boicey.com>

Karl Vacek wrote:
> That's why you usually buy the tank from the dealer in the first place - you 
> get a rusty old beater tank in the first place and never have any higher 
> expectations  ;-)
> 
> Did you actually buy NEW regular-sized tanks ?/  I'm not sure I've ever seen 
> really new tanks, except the little portable ones.  I thought they were made 
> by gnomes in the forest, and then beaten up and rusted on the way to the gas 
> supplier the first time !!

    I had this problem once. I first got my oxy/acet kit by borrowing it 
from my dad. He had purchased them shiny new.

    When I got them filled the first time, I had to ask for my own tanks 
specifically back, which took about a week and drew a lot of funny stares.

    After my dad accepted that he was never getting the stuff back 
though, he also relented and allowed me to just swap them out.

    Different areas have different tanks, some areas have smaller tanks 
that are not swappable, some areas will swap them.

    I happen to have the smallest tank set that is swappable, which 
works for me. (40 cu ft?)

From foxtrapper at aceweb.com  Thu Nov 29 07:34:28 2007
From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:34:28 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set  and Suburban issues
References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net>
	<01c401c83206$489c6220$d9d52660$@net>
Message-ID: <002c01c83294$f416e970$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us>

> My suburban worked ok on dry, but on very slippery oil/rain combo or ice
> conditions it was downright scary.  You could not stop in parking lots at
> all no matter how hard you pressed the petal, you had to use the e brake 
> or
> slip it into park.

I've run into that as well.  Same conditions, extremely slick and very low 
speed.  The ABS actuators are kicking up a storm, and the car just keeps 
rolling, and rolling, and rolling.  Probably made worse by having an 
automatic transmission that kept pushing the vehicle along.

But, that is the *only* condition I've found myself not liking ABS.