From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Dec 1 05:26:04 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:26:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40711302132k2ba8538bsa26a6722dd2a2014@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> All this talk about swapping out the bottles. I've got a question. My mig welder bottle is something like 40 or 60 cu ft. about 3' tall. That's about as much as I can pick up. And I don't want to carry it too far. :) My dad has the o/a set up, with the Big bottles about 5' for the O and a little shorter for the A. I've never asked him, and I can't remember the last time he swapped them out. But how in the heck to you all move them? I don't think I could even tilt the O bottle to get it into the back of a pick up, if I had a pick up. I have no idea of what they weigh empty or full. But they sure are heavy! John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Dec 1 06:27:45 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:27:45 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net><004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL><00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion><003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL><010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion><5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <007101c8341d$f6124eb0$6e01a8c0@KARL> You mostly see that size in welding shops and on construction sites, where they use a seriious amount of gas. I gave away a set recently (they were given to me by someone who got them the same way) because I didn't want to pay for testing (they were out of date) and I didn't want to have to horse them around all the time. I saved one to use for nitrogen - maybe - some day. You lift them by hand unless you have some easier way to lift them. Eat your Wheaties ;-) And when you do move them, make sure to put the caps on. A cylinder with the valve snapped off (it's not that hard to do) can take off like a torpedo, and the valve goes the other way like a large piece of schrapnel. It can ruin a few peoples' day. Karl > My dad has the o/a set up, with the Big bottles about 5' for the O and > a little shorter for the A. I've never asked him, and I can't remember > the last time he swapped them out. But how in the heck to you all > move them? I don't think I could even tilt the O bottle to get it > into the back of a pick up, if I had a pick up. > > I have no idea of what they weigh empty or full. But they sure are heavy! > > John From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Dec 1 06:46:07 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:46:07 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] gas bottle sizes Message-ID: <002301c83420$86f685c0$6401a8c0@niolon> with all the talk about bottles and lifting them and such, though you guys might like this little table...it tells you WAY more than you want to know about gas bottles http://www.taylor-wharton.com/Pages/Literature/Literature%20%20pdf/HP&A/hp_&_a_spec.pdf john All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Dec 1 06:55:39 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:55:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <47516035.6030708@comcast.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> At 08:23 AM 12/1/2007 -0500, Donald H Locker wrote: >Bottle cart. Looks like a hand truck but with a saddle for the bottle and a >safety chain. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. > >Picking them up is not a very good plan. Bad for the back, and if they fall, >bad for the rest of your body. Donald, Yes, we have the big hand truck for moving them around the shop. I'm trying to figure out how to get the bottles back to be refilled. With my little bottle for my MIG, when I got to the welding supply house, they tell me to take it to their loading dock, and get another bottle. So I have to lift the bottle about 3' onto the loading dock, then get a bottle down. I was able to put the CO/Argon bottle in the back seat floor of my 84 Honda Accord. I just reciently bougth a new car, a Scion XB. I shouldn't have any problems with the MIG bottle in that. But I don't think either of the O/A bottles will fit in the back of the XB. I don't see how I'd tilt the big O/A bottles to get them into the back of a pick up for transport, and then out again. Luckily I haven't had to do it. Dad is now in his 80s and I'm pretty sure he's not going to do that any more. :) And he hasn't been welding like he used to. However, when he passes, I'll inharret the rig. So I'm just trying to figure out how you handle the big bottles. Actually, I'll probably see if I can't exchange them from some small ones, about the size of my MIG bottle. But I thought you all might have some good ideas on getting the bottles into the back of a pickup, other than - Be Careful!! :). John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Dec 1 07:29:13 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 08:29:13 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] lifting gas bottles Message-ID: <003001c83426$8bf526c0$6401a8c0@niolon> John, I use the big (5' tall) argon and oxygen bottles. Industrial sized ! they weigh around 200 #. Normally it's just slide, tilt, stand up and roll on edge. But, when my back is not working properly I either use a nylon sling and my engine hoist or the same sling and a chain fall in the garage. Lift it up and drive out from under it. My "welding cart" is big...5'long 30" wide ..three level. It holds my Millermatic 200, my Hobart Handler 100, my Lincoln ac/dc stick welder and the C25 gas bottle, plus all the other crap that ends up on the top. It's on 6" casters and moves around nicely. I've even had to fab up a long ramp to roll the c25 bottle up that 6" instead of lifting it. When you're old or your back isn't working... you improvise ! john All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Dec 1 08:02:23 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:02:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] lifting gas bottles In-Reply-To: <003001c83426$8bf526c0$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071201100223.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> At 08:29 AM 12/1/2007 -0600, john niolon wrote: >When you're old or your back isn't working... you improvise ! John Thanks for the tips. Yes, I understand the back problem. :) John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From paul.mele at usermail.com Sat Dec 1 08:15:03 2007 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:15:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: <006301c8342c$f332feb0$d998fc10$@mele@usermail.com> It takes me a couple years to empty a large tank; I spend 15 minutes painting when I pick it up..then I can admire a pretty tank for a couple years, and my supplier grins when I bring it in... << I do miss my shiny new tank though. >>> From jibjib at att.net Sat Dec 1 10:17:26 2007 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:17:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net><5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net><004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL><00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion><003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL><010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion><5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net><3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <012d01c8343e$0c7303a0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> I transport mine on the floor, behind the front seats. I can drop it in behind the passenger seat and slide the seat rearward until it compresses the cylinder against the second row of seats. I then drop the seat back to lock it in. Combined with a cover on the valve, it's a pretty safe place to transport a cylinder. You don't want it to be able to move around, or get hit, if you are in an accident. Jack From hal at katemuir.com Sat Dec 1 11:20:21 2007 From: hal at katemuir.com (Hal Faulkner) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:20:21 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <012d01c8343e$0c7303a0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: Don't know what they charge, but most serious gas suppliers will deliver. Hal From parkanzky at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 11:30:35 2007 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:30:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners Message-ID: My wife has informed me that my father-in-law would like a set of ear muffs that combine hearing protection with the ability to listen to a game while he mows the lawn, runs his tractors, splits wood, etc. Seems like a good Christmas gift, so I started Googling. It looks as though I have a bunch of options, and I can't remember a time in the last half-dozen years this list was stumped... For ~$80 I can get an Elvex Com-660. AM/FM, takes AA batteries. For about $100, Elvex sells an FM-only model that is rechargeable. I don't yet know whether or not he would want AM (And I can only hope that my MIL will know). I like the rechargeable idea (no batteries to remove/install, just plug it in when he's not using it). Peltor (a brand I like) also sells some similar to the Com-660's for ~$85. Does anybody have any experience with any of these? Is there a model that you guys like? Anything to stay away from? If I were your son-in-law, which would you want me to buy you? -Paul From tbott1 at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 1 12:00:59 2007 From: tbott1 at bellsouth.net (Tom Bott) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:00:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners Message-ID: <006101c8344c$8378f3c0$6402a8c0@SONY> > Paul, > > I have used two sets of these headset radios from Radioshack, $49.99 - > Model: 12-932 > Catalog #: 12-932 > > They run on two AAA batteries and last a long time. You also can hook up > a mp3 or whatever the young crowd uses these days. (I guess my cassettes > are obselete). > > The positives are that they cover the entire ear and effectively block > outside noise pretty well. I use them at work in a noisy machine shop. > They also receive both am and fm pretty well. They also are digital > tuning and you can not only lock the buttons to keep from accidentally > changing the stations but you can also pre-set them to memory. The volume > can be adjusted on each earpiece also. > > The only downside that I have found is because they do cover the entire > ear, in hot weather/areas they do create a litte sweat. > > hope this helps, > > Tom > K4SVH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Parkanzky" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:30 PM > Subject: [Shop-talk] Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners > > >> My wife has informed me that my father-in-law would like a set of ear >> muffs >> that combine hearing protection with the ability to listen to a game >> while >> he mows the lawn, runs his tractors, splits wood, etc. Seems like a good >> Christmas gift, so I started Googling. It looks as though I have a bunch >> of >> options, and I can't remember a time in the last half-dozen years this >> list >> was stumped... >> >> For ~$80 I can get an Elvex Com-660. AM/FM, takes AA batteries. For >> about >> $100, Elvex sells an FM-only model that is rechargeable. I don't yet >> know >> whether or not he would want AM (And I can only hope that my MIL will >> know). I like the rechargeable idea (no batteries to remove/install, >> just >> plug it in when he's not using it). Peltor (a brand I like) also sells >> some >> similar to the Com-660's for ~$85. >> >> Does anybody have any experience with any of these? Is there a model >> that >> you guys like? Anything to stay away from? If I were your son-in-law, >> which would you want me to buy you? >> >> -Paul >> _______________________________________________ >> tbott1 at bellsouth.net >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk From parkanzky at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 12:04:38 2007 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:04:38 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners In-Reply-To: <006101c8344c$8378f3c0$6402a8c0@SONY> References: <006101c8344c$8378f3c0$6402a8c0@SONY> Message-ID: Tom, The Radioshack site does not mention outside noise attenuation. Most of the muffs I've been looking at have noise reduction ratings in the 20's. Would you say these Radioshack muffs would be effective when you're running a big Stihl chainsaw or running around on a 110 HP tractor at high idle? I guess when I said 'mow the lawn' I knew what I was talking about (BIG lawn, so BIG lawnmower), but most people probably imagine a small garden tractor. -Paul On Dec 1, 2007 2:00 PM, Tom Bott wrote: > > Paul, > > > > I have used two sets of these headset radios from Radioshack, $49.99 - > > Model: 12-932 > > Catalog #: 12-932 > > > > They run on two AAA batteries and last a long time. You also can hook > up > > a mp3 or whatever the young crowd uses these days. (I guess my > cassettes > > are obselete). > > > > The positives are that they cover the entire ear and effectively block > > outside noise pretty well. I use them at work in a noisy machine shop. > > They also receive both am and fm pretty well. They also are digital > > tuning and you can not only lock the buttons to keep from accidentally > > changing the stations but you can also pre-set them to memory. The > volume > > can be adjusted on each earpiece also. > > > > The only downside that I have found is because they do cover the entire > > ear, in hot weather/areas they do create a litte sweat. > > > > hope this helps, > > > > Tom > > K4SVH > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Parkanzky" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:30 PM > > Subject: [Shop-talk] Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners > > > > > >> My wife has informed me that my father-in-law would like a set of ear > >> muffs > >> that combine hearing protection with the ability to listen to a game > >> while > >> he mows the lawn, runs his tractors, splits wood, etc. Seems like a > good > >> Christmas gift, so I started Googling. It looks as though I have a > bunch > >> of > >> options, and I can't remember a time in the last half-dozen years this > >> list > >> was stumped... > >> > >> For ~$80 I can get an Elvex Com-660. AM/FM, takes AA batteries. For > >> about > >> $100, Elvex sells an FM-only model that is rechargeable. I don't yet > >> know > >> whether or not he would want AM (And I can only hope that my MIL will > >> know). I like the rechargeable idea (no batteries to remove/install, > >> just > >> plug it in when he's not using it). Peltor (a brand I like) also sells > >> some > >> similar to the Com-660's for ~$85. > >> > >> Does anybody have any experience with any of these? Is there a model > >> that > >> you guys like? Anything to stay away from? If I were your son-in-law, > >> which would you want me to buy you? > >> > >> -Paul > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tbott1 at bellsouth.net > >> > >> Shop-talk mailing list > >> > >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > _______________________________________________ > parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:38:10 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:38:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712011238q9ed7ab3u262e527dfb19c04@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 1, 2007 7:26 AM, John T. Blair wrote: > > > I have no idea of what they weigh empty or full. But they sure are heavy! > If you look at the neck of a gas bottle, there are a bunch of numbers. One of them will be something like TW 46.8. That's the tare weight, in lbs. If it's an old cylinder, it may just be an unmarked number. If it's a newish cylinder, it's likely to also have the tare weight in kilograms. There will be a number, starting with DOT or ICC, which tells the type of tank, its maximum service pressure, and other things -- something like DOT3AAA2265, which means a plain steel tank rated for 2265 psi. (There are some newer classes of tank where it's listed in bar.) There's a serial number, which is pretty meaningless to us. Then there are bunch of dates. They're in the format Month Tester's mark year endorsements. So you'll see something like 12 X 07 + *. That would be a cylinder tested December 2007 by the owner of the symbol X. (They're often a bunch of leters and numbers on two rows. They mean things to DOT, but not me.) The plus sign means the tank is certified for 10% over filling (to 2500 PSI in this case, then). The star means that it's only necessary to test the cylinder every ten years, instead of five. (provided a bunch of requirements are met, but that's the filler's problem, not the users.) Acetylene cylinders usually have water capacity stamped, as well. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From scottmryan at netzero.net Sat Dec 1 13:45:37 2007 From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:45:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? References: <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: <015a01c8345b$ed4ddb30$e5aa17d1@smrinsp1100> > >Karl wrote: > >About tanks. It's generally the best deal to own your tanks. > > ***** > Yes, exchanging tanks is great, it puts all of the responsibility for > testing, etc. on the gas supply company, but it really sucks, the first > time > you take your brand spanking new tank in for exchange and get a rusty old > beater tank in exchange. > > Jack sometimes it works out better-the place I take my tanks to managed to lose my acet. cylinder, about the time it was due to be tested, and they ended up replacing it (a 40cu ft) w/ a 60cu foot one. It costs the same to fill (approx) and I only have to refill it every 5 or 6 years now. Another place in Kansas lost my oxy cylinder, I ended up getting a little smaller one, so I guess it evens out. Scott R From shiples at comcast.net Sat Dec 1 14:04:02 2007 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:04:02 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40711302132k2ba8538bsa26a6722dd2a2014@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> <004801c832b3$101956d0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <00f701c833b5$8af29530$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <003b01c833c3$a69597c0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <010501c833d0$51398f40$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> <5.2.1.1.0.20071130210038.03533160@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071201124849.0353dec0@mail.comcast.net> At 12:32 AM 12/1/2007 -0500, David Scheidt wrote: >On Dec 1, 2007 12:13 AM, Steve Shipley wrote: > > At 08:11 PM 11/30/2007 -0800, Jack Brooks wrote: > > > Yeah, I bought it new from a shop that refilled on site, so I just > > >assumed I'd always have my pretty new cylinder. I moved and all the shops > > >here swap because they don't fill on site. I do believe they sell the > gnome > > >created tanks. I do miss my shiny new tank though. > > > > I exchanged for a new oxygen tank this year. Fresh paint, shiny brass, > > and even new rubber bands so the tanks don't clang together. > > > >Was it new, or just a new valve? I dunno. Nicest tank I've ever seen but not worth doing a forensic investigation. What we're talking about is the luck of the draw, you expect a good valve and anything else is a plus. What I really liked about this topic is the idea of refinishing an exchange tank before it enters the shop. In my dreams my vehicles always get the best care, win all the prizes, and the shop is some sort of Garage Mahal. The reality is that I'm pretty sure the world shakes its head at my attempts. The lesson learned is that you can hope that luck gives you the shiny bottle or you can do what ever it takes to ensure you have the shiny bottle. One more example of things I hadn't even considered until I read it here. I will never be able to look at a bottle in the same way. (I'm headed out to the garage to neaten up just a bit..) From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Dec 1 14:49:40 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:49:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fw: Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners In-Reply-To: <006101c8344c$8378f3c0$6402a8c0@SONY> References: <006101c8344c$8378f3c0$6402a8c0@SONY> Message-ID: <4751D6F4.3020405@xxiii.com> > If I were your on-in-law, which would you want me to buy you? Uuhh... how much do you like your son in law? May have been a management excuse, but the factory I used to work in claimed they were banned by OSHA, because the muffling combined with the noise input could make one TOO oblivious to outside hazards! Not sure if it's true, but it makes sense there's a fine line between hearing protection, and hearing "look out!!" -Wayne From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Dec 1 15:13:26 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:13:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071201171326.00afb230@pop.east.cox.net> At 01:30 PM 12/1/2007 -0500, Paul Parkanzky wrote: >For ~$80 I can get an Elvex Com-660. AM/FM, takes AA batteries. For about >$100, Elvex sells an FM-only model that is rechargeable. I don't yet know >whether or not he would want AM (And I can only hope that my MIL will >know). I like the rechargeable idea (no batteries to remove/install, just >plug it in when he's not using it). Peltor (a brand I like) also sells some >similar to the Com-660's for ~$85. Paul, The Com-660 looks pretty nice. According to the info. it has about 20 db noise reduction. I looked up the micky mouse ears I use - got them from Harbor Freight. They work well and hearing protection, but alas no radio. But then for about $5 what do you expect. :) But as to the rechargable or not. I personally would go for the NOT rechargable unit. Most of the rechargable devices use special batteries that are pretty expensive - just look at your cordless drill. (You can buy a new drill for the cost of a battery.) I'd go the with unit that takes regular batteries. Then if you want, replace the AAs with rechargable AA. Now if his rechargable batteries are dead, he can always slip in a couple of regular AAs and he's good to go. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From pethier at comcast.net Sat Dec 1 19:38:25 2007 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 02:38:25 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Ear Muffs with Built-In Radio Tuners Message-ID: <120220070238.27370.47521AA1000DE93600006AEA22007511509D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> From: "Paul Parkanzky" > My wife has informed me that my father-in-law would like a set of ear muffs > that combine hearing protection with the ability to listen to a game while > he mows the lawn, runs his tractors, splits wood, etc. No experience, but I have seen these recently at Menards for about 40 bucks. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From nases at verizon.net Sun Dec 2 07:11:25 2007 From: nases at verizon.net (Phil Nase) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 09:11:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line Message-ID: <005301c834ed$3a129910$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com> We're getting new flooring in our kitchen soon. Before the new stuff is down I want to provide a water line to my refrigerator from the other side of the kitchen. I can't do it from the basement because when I finished the basement I sheet rocked the ceiling. (looks good but a mistake for access to the first floor). I plan to drill a hole behind the fridge and under the dishwasher on the other side of the kitchen for either a copper or flexible line. How do I fish it through? It will run about 14 feet. Any pros or cons to copper or to the reinforced flexible pipe? Does the plastic stuff flavor the water? Should I worry about a leak over my finished basement ruining my day. Thanks. Phil Nase Quakertown, PA http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sun Dec 2 07:19:42 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 09:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line In-Reply-To: <005301c834ed$3a129910$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com> References: <005301c834ed$3a129910$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com> Message-ID: <4752BEFE.3030903@xxiii.com> Phil Nase wrote: > floor). I plan to drill a hole behind the fridge and under the dishwasher > on the other side of the kitchen for either a copper or flexible line. > How do I fish it through? It will run about 14 feet. I'd go with the PEX plastic stuff. It's fairly flexible, easy to handle, and supposedly doesn't have the problems associated with some older varieties of plastic pipe. If you have a straight shot between joists under the floor, I think you could just shove PEX through, with an adequate access hole at either end (which would probably be hidden under appliances or cabinetry when you're done.) -Wayne From kvacek at ameritech.net Sun Dec 2 09:20:29 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:20:29 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line References: <005301c834ed$3a129910$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com> Message-ID: <006d01c834ff$424322a0$6e01a8c0@KARL> While I prefer copper for most water lines, if you're ever going to add an RO water system and use it to feed the refrigerator, plastic is a better choice. RO water is "hungry" and will react with the copper over time and eventually eat through the tubing. That said, I hooked up our refrigerator with polyethylene as soon as I'd put it back in place on new oak floors. Two days later I noticed that the adjacent concrete floor was damp. The plastic tubing had cracked at a fitting and dripped enough to warp the new floor. I worked with polyethylene tubing on a daily basis for 14 years and never saw that before. They make stainless-braid-covered icemaker lines too, plastic on the inside, but the longest I've seen is 10 feet. Polyethylene, and presumably PEX as well, won't flavor the water a bit. Karl > Any pros or cons to copper or to the reinforced flexible pipe? Does the > plastic stuff flavor the water? Should I worry about a leak over my > finished basement ruining my day. > > Thanks. > > Phil Nase > Quakertown, PA > http://home.comcast.net/~philnasecpa From battmain at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 13:37:18 2007 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:37:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line Message-ID: <750249.4183.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mine runs up and through the ceiling and back down to the fridge. The line is small diameter copper. Connection point with shut-off valve under the sink, and the other connection at the fridge. I had to clean up water when the rubber washer failed at the connection point to the fridge, but that was after 10 years. Didn't know there was water on the ground until I almost busted my rear on the tile. Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Phil Nase To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 9:11:25 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line We're getting new flooring in our kitchen soon. Before the new stuff is down I want to provide a water line to my refrigerator from the other side of the kitchen. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From mattw at webtripper.com Sun Dec 2 17:59:58 2007 From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:59:58 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <200712021859.58939.mattw@webtripper.com> On Saturday 01 December 2007 07:55, John T. Blair wrote: > I don't see how I'd tilt the big O/A bottles to get them into the back > of a pick up for transport, and then out again. Luckily I haven't had > to do it. What I was taught to do to move the tanks- While up right to get from one place to another grab the tank by the neck (cap is ON) and tip the tank very slightly then just roll it on it's edge. I would grab the tank neck/cap with my left hand, lean the tank towards my shoulder and then use my right hand to spin the tank, rolling to towards where I wanted to go. Easy to show, hard to describe, very easy to do. To get the tank onto a loading dock just roll it up towards the dock, lean the tank against the dock and then just lift from the bottom and toss it up onto the dock. Actually you push the tank part way onto the dock while lifting and then get the tank totally horizontal and then have the tank laying on the dock over the edge and just finish pushing it onto the dock. Try to get as much lean as possible, ie. leave the base of the tank as far away from the dock as possible, while still being close enough that the tank body (not neck) will rest against the dock. This too is easier than it sounds since you are not lifting all the tanks weight. I will have to say I haven't done this for 10 years but it was old guys that taught me how to move tanks. One big thing to do is make friends with your supplier and get the lightest (newest) tanks you can. Tanks last forever and have gotten much lighter over the years. In the same size tanks there could be almost a 1.5x weight difference in the dry tank. IIRC an average tank was ~ 80lbs dry some of the older monsters from the 1940's (I had tanks that were older than my dad, 1943) weighed 120-140 dry almost 200 full, this makes a big difference. Also if weight was really an issue look for aluminum tanks (are they available for acetylene). This brought the weight down to ~60lbs per tank. Makes a real difference, those light aluminum tanks weighed less full than some of the oldest tanks did dry. So if weight is really a problem get your own light weight tanks and just wait to get them refilled. The recert test shouldn't cost that much (unless your supplier is marking it up a bunch). Then you also can keep nice shiny tanks. Just remember to use gravity and leverage as much as possible, don't do as a friend did and bear hug the tanks and straight lift it, he screwed up his back. Stubborn fool as we were standing there and said we'd help him. And see if you can get someone at your supplier to show you how to move tanks, once you learn the tricks it really isn't that hard. But it is still dangerous, so be careful, these things are heavy enough to crush bones, besides the obvious dangers of pressurized tanks. You also said you'd be moving them in your car, decide which way you want the tank to exit should the neck get damaged in an accident. Also tie the tanks down as good as possible, they are heavy suckers and can do some real damage in a panic stop. Matt Wehland From eric at megageek.com Mon Dec 3 07:39:19 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:39:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? Message-ID: John Asks... > But how in the heck to you all move them? John, I found a company in my area that will deliver the new tank and take your tank. It works great! BTW, I normally get a better tank then the one I give them. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From eric at megageek.com Mon Dec 3 11:01:59 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:01:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Black Surgical Tubing Message-ID: Does anyone know of a cheap source of black surgical tubing? It doesn't need to be as thick as the tan stuff. Thanks. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From darmstrong at nexicom.net Mon Dec 3 15:57:23 2007 From: darmstrong at nexicom.net (Doug Armstrong) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:57:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Black Surgical Tubing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200712032300.lB3N06MX027312@smtp.nexicom.net> McMaster-Carr -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+darmstrong=nexicom.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:02 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Black Surgical Tubing Does anyone know of a cheap source of black surgical tubing? It doesn't need to be as thick as the tan stuff. Thanks. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos _______________________________________________ darmstrong at nexicom.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1167 - Release Date: 12/3/2007 12:20 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1167 - Release Date: 12/3/2007 12:20 PM From shiples at comcast.net Mon Dec 3 18:33:58 2007 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:33:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <200712021859.58939.mattw@webtripper.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> <3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071203172732.03485330@mail.comcast.net> >You also said you'd be moving them in your car, decide which way you want the >tank to exit should the neck get damaged in an accident. Also tie the tanks >down as good as possible, they are heavy suckers and can do some real damage >in a panic stop. > >Matt Wehland I've always been under the impression that it isn't a good idea to lay tanks down for transit. I've never been refused service when exchanging, but I've been offered safety tips from time to time. If you're serious about safety, shouldn't your tanks always be vertical? Valves don't get knocked off and there's something about using acetylene after the tank has been on it's side. From kvacek at ameritech.net Mon Dec 3 18:53:35 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:53:35 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? References: <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net><3.0.5.32.20071201072604.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net><3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20071203172732.03485330@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <018d01c83618$7cd1d320$6e01a8c0@KARL> Acetylene isn't stable by itself at pressures above about 15 PSI. For that reason, it's dissolved in a matrix containing acetone in the tank - part of the reason acetylene tanks are surprisingly heavy for their size. If the tank has been on its side, it should sit upright for a while before being used - I don't remember how long, but ISTR that it's on the order of a few minutes, not hours. Karl > If you're serious about safety, shouldn't your tanks always be > vertical? Valves don't > get knocked off and there's something about using acetylene after the tank > has been > on it's side. From mattw at webtripper.com Mon Dec 3 20:53:02 2007 From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 21:53:02 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] harris welding torches and blue point jack? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071203172732.03485330@mail.comcast.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20071201085539.00afd548@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20071203172732.03485330@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200712032153.03262.mattw@webtripper.com> On Monday 03 December 2007 19:33, Steve Shipley wrote: > I've always been under the impression that it isn't a good idea to lay > tanks down for transit. I've never been refused service when exchanging, >but I've been offered safety tips from time to time. > > If you're serious about safety, shouldn't your tanks always be > vertical? Valves don't > get knocked off and there's something about using acetylene after the tank > has been on it's side. While I completely agree, it would have been hard to keep a tank vertical in a 95 Mustang. The OP had a Scion IIRC, while roomy for their size, not enough head room for upright travel. For that matter how do you restrain a tank securely in a normal pickup without a headache or ladder rack. The bed is less than 2 feet deep and the tank is 4-5 feet, making the side of the bed a great lever to flip the tank over, not hold it in place. Up against the front of the bed, it will still not rest against the cab, and if it comes in contact with the cab in a panic stop I'd be afraid of it breaking out the rear window, and then still possibly leaving the truck. I think in a regular pickup I'd still lay it down, padded around the neck at the front of the bed and brace it in, lashed to the side. If I moved them semi-regularly I would probably make a wooden cradle for them. In my Mustang I moved large Nitrous tanks (refilled little bottles for cars). I could fit 3 full size tanks in and they would not move side to side, or front to back for that matter. I always tried to move whatever number of tanks would fit in the vehicle securely (when I had a mini-van I took however many tanks filled it up nicely). Sometimes you have to make do with what you have, and just make the best of it, like deciding which way the tank should fly out of the vehicle if the valve ruptures. Also while it probably doesn't apply to people on this list, I'm afraid that many upright tanks in trucks are not restrained that well (check out how many badly restrained towed cars/trucks/tractors are on trailers). Matt Wehland From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com Tue Dec 4 19:24:12 2007 From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] jump booster pack recommendations Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071204212119.02bb88f0@pop.nycap.rr.com> My horrible freight jump pack expired today. any one have a brand or model they are happy with? features that you wish you had? how many amps are needed for 12volt car use? thanks skip Nothing is as it appears Skip Albright salbrigh at nycap.rr.com From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Fri Dec 7 08:00:41 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Automatic transmission rebuild References: <008101c82be0$dc518da0$8ba5c6d8@shack2> Message-ID: <002c01c838e1$f1991e40$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Jobs like these usually are much worse in the anticipation than they are in reality. No, I've not rebuilt an automatic transmission. But I've bitten off similarly large and very intimidating projects only to find that they are in fact quite manageable when taken in bite size pieces. It's December, and working conditions become real important in the winter, at least to me. If you've got a shop or garage, and the space to scatter parts around in, that makes it much easier than trying to work in the snow out on the driveway. You mentioned the dealer changed the fluid and filter a few weeks before the problems occurred. Obviously, going back to them is an idea. They will probably blow you off, but I'd still give it a try. Before I pulled the transmission for a rebuild I'd do a filter and fluid change myself. If you're lucky, you may fix the problem right there. An improperly installed filter can restrict flow and give the symptoms you describe. I'd also be inclined to try Trans-X oil additive. Yes, I know it's a "snake oil", but I've seen it do some interesting things in a transmission acting like yours. From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Dec 7 08:07:30 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:07:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES Message-ID: MY '03 Tahoe through a check engine light at me yesterday... reader shows po174 and po176 codes which are engine lean...both banks from my googling it seems that it 'might' be a dirty MAF sensor or vacuum leak or leaking hoses etc figured I'd start with the MAF sensor. what's the best thing to clean it with and procedure if more than just spraying it down good ?? does it need to be removed from the MAF or cleaned in place... what ever happened to cleaning/setting your points with a matchbook cover and getting back on the road ?? I hate technology... oh and windows vista... john Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged." --President Abraham Lincoln " From parkanzky at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 08:09:42 2007 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:09:42 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My experience (with TDI VWs) is that the MAF sensor cannot be brought back from the dead. That said, I would look at vacuum leaks first. A quick jiggle/tightening of all the fittings and clearing the code might fix it for you. -Paul On Dec 7, 2007 10:07 AM, john niolon wrote: > MY '03 Tahoe through a check engine light at me yesterday... reader shows > po174 and po176 codes which are engine lean...both banks > > from my googling it seems that it 'might' be a dirty MAF sensor or vacuum > leak > or leaking hoses etc > figured I'd start with the MAF sensor. > > what's the best thing to clean it with and procedure if more than just > spraying it down good ?? does it need to be removed from the MAF or > cleaned > in place... > > what ever happened to cleaning/setting your points with a matchbook cover > and > getting back on the road ?? I hate technology... oh and windows vista... > > john > > > > > Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, > and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or > hanged." > --President > Abraham Lincoln " > _______________________________________________ > parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk From mark at sccaprepared.com Fri Dec 7 08:19:51 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:19:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, john niolon wrote: > MY '03 Tahoe through a check engine light at me yesterday... reader shows > po174 and po176 codes which are engine lean...both banks > > from my googling it seems that it 'might' be a dirty MAF sensor or > vacuum leak or leaking hoses etc figured I'd start with the MAF sensor. > > what's the best thing to clean it with and procedure if more than just > spraying it down good ?? does it need to be removed from the MAF or > cleaned in place... There's a MAF cleaner spray, or lots of folks use brake clean. If its really dirty though, this won't work. What you want to do then is take the sensor assembly apart enough that you can get to the sensing resistors/wires with a q-tip. Put some alcohol on the q-tip and rub the wires until nothing comes off. A gentle touch is required... The wires/resistors are pretty thin. Its not that hard to do, provided you can actually get to the wires. > what ever happened to cleaning/setting your points with a matchbook > cover and getting back on the road ?? I hate technology... oh and > windows vista... As someone that just had to deal with screwing with points/condensor on my motorhome generator.... Bring on the technology! :-) Mark From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 08:20:02 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:20:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d40712070720i6403212fl1474bfbf00e0605e@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 7, 2007 10:07 AM, john niolon wrote: > MY '03 Tahoe through a check engine light at me yesterday... reader shows > po174 and po176 codes which are engine lean...both banks > PO176 is a fuel composition sensor fault. Do you have a typo, or a flex fuel truck? PO171 is bank 1 lean. Check for vacuum leaks first. That's cheap and easy. Then pull the MAF and clean it. You do this by spraying it with electrical contact cleaner. not brake cleaner, carb cleaner, snot, gasoline or anything else. Electrical contact cleaner or MAF cleaner (which, as far as I can tell, is contact cleaner). Don't touch the wires. Which engine is this? Some of them are known for intake gasket failures. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Fri Dec 7 08:36:46 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:36:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES References: Message-ID: <001501c838e6$fa3b4140$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Far more likely you've got a gasket leak on the intake. I remember cleaning and setting my points that way to get back on the road as well. Don't miss all the time I spent broken down on the side of the road making those repairs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "john niolon" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:07 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES > MY '03 Tahoe through a check engine light at me yesterday... reader shows > po174 and po176 codes which are engine lean...both banks > > from my googling it seems that it 'might' be a dirty MAF sensor or vacuum > leak > or leaking hoses etc > figured I'd start with the MAF sensor. > > what's the best thing to clean it with and procedure if more than just > spraying it down good ?? does it need to be removed from the MAF or > cleaned > in place... > > what ever happened to cleaning/setting your points with a matchbook cover > and > getting back on the road ?? I hate technology... oh and windows vista... From eric at megageek.com Fri Dec 7 09:06:48 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:06:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] edger trimmer Message-ID: I mentioned it here a little while ago, but I finally listed my edger and trimmer on ebay. Here is the link... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270194714877 If you want it, send me an email and I'll pull it from ebay. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Fri Dec 7 09:20:37 2007 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:20:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797ADE9EF@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> john niolon wrote: > > from my googling it seems that it 'might' be a dirty MAF > sensor or vacuum leak or leaking hoses etc figured I'd > start with the MAF sensor. Do you have a K&N type of air filter on the truck? If so, over oiling (or even not over oiling) the filter often messes up the MAF. If you have an oiled filter, I'd start with changing that out for a paper one, and cleaning the MAF. Otherwise, I'd look for a vacuum leak. First do the normal checking of all hoses for cracks and tight seals. If that doesn't find any leaks, you could search for the vacuum leak is with an unlit propane torch - especially the type with the torch on the end of a hose. Turn it on very low, and, with the engine running, move the unlit torch near of the possible sources of a vacuum leak. The engine should change RPM if/when the propane is sucked into the leak. Tim Mullen From rs1121 at earthlink.net Fri Dec 7 11:12:51 2007 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:12:51 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Since we are talking about engines In-Reply-To: <200710291925.l9TJPR8b014467@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com> References: <200710291925.l9TJPR8b014467@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com> Message-ID: <029801c838fc$c7ecad30$57c60790$@net> This came up on another list - sounds pretty cool Here is the Autoweek article: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060227/FREE/302270007/1 023/ Jeff Chan wrote: > > Autoweek reports both Lotus and Bosch working on 6-cycle engines with > an added power stroke over 4-cycle engines. The additional power > stroke pulls some "Oxygen-free radicals" back in from the exhaust and > ignites them along with some extra fuel using compression (Dieseling). > The result is said to be significantly greater power and torque with > lower emissions. Lotus Engineering technical director Simon Wood > claims a significant reduction in greenhouse gas emissions and V8 > performance from a 4-cylinder engine. From jblair1948 at cox.net Fri Dec 7 12:50:39 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:50:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071207145039.00b2ecc8@pop.east.cox.net> At 09:07 AM 12/7/2007 -0600, john niolon wrote: >what ever happened to cleaning/setting your points with a matchbook cover and >getting back on the road ?? I hate technology... oh and windows vista... As a matter of fact, I just had that probem in my Morgan about 3 wks ago. When I got it home, I replaced the points with a pretronix solid state ignition module. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Dec 7 15:48:20 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 14:48:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! Message-ID: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I have a 4-year-old Craftsman 18-volt "EX" cordless drill. The two batteries it came with have slowly gotten worse and worse, and are now useless. I need to decide what to do. Sears seems to keep changing their battery styles and voltages. 18 volts was their big deal a few years ago, but now all their sturdier Nicad-based stuff is 19.2 volts! They don't seem to carry any 18-volt "EX" replacement batteries any more. They now have generic Craftsman and "DieHard" 18 and 19.2 volt batteries (with a big variation in price), and I cannot figure out what the difference is. The terminals appear the same as my old ones. anybody how what interchanges with that? What's more, I opened one of my batteries and counted 16 cells. At 1.2 volts per cell, that means my "18-volt" battery is really 19.2 volts! When they switched to 19.2 volts did the actually stuff one more cell in the packs, or just correct a math mistake? Is it even worth trying to replace just the batteries, or should I just check the perfectly good drill and charger and get something different? Is there any other line of cordless drills being sold today where the batteries can be expected to last more than 3 years (and still be available then)? Are the newfangled Lithium cells any better? Or should I just get a good 1/2" chuck corded drill? I rarely use my drill more than 20 feet from an outlet anyway. Any recommendations on brands or models? I have a corded drill, but it is a $19.95 single-speed non-reversible Black&Decker one that my wife bought before we were married. I think I am due for an upgrade... Rantingly, Doug From pete at partnercomm.com Fri Dec 7 15:59:43 2007 From: pete at partnercomm.com (=?utf-8?B?UGV0ZXIgTXVycmF5?=) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 22:59:43 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1493657104-1197068436-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1396510878-@bxe014.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Summer of 2006, I ran into the same trouble with my 18V Craftsman cordless. Offended at the thought of tossing a good cordless, I just took the packs to the Batteries Plus (here in Fairfax, VA) and the folks there replaced the cells in my two packs for $80 (with a corporate discount). They had different capacity cells from which to choose, so I now have longer runtime... There is no reason you couldn't pick up replacement cells (online or locally) and rebuild the pack yourself, if you can afford the time... -Peter -- Peter Murray (N3IXY) Oak Hill, VA Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Doug Braun Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 14:48:20 To:Shop-Talk List Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! Hello, I have a 4-year-old Craftsman 18-volt "EX" cordless drill. The two batteries it came with have slowly gotten worse and worse, and are now useless. I need to decide what to do. Sears seems to keep changing their battery styles and voltages. 18 volts was their big deal a few years ago, but now all their sturdier Nicad-based stuff is 19.2 volts! They don't seem to carry any 18-volt "EX" replacement batteries any more. They now have generic Craftsman and "DieHard" 18 and 19.2 volt batteries (with a big variation in price), and I cannot figure out what the difference is. The terminals appear the same as my old ones. anybody how what interchanges with that? What's more, I opened one of my batteries and counted 16 cells. At 1.2 volts per cell, that means my "18-volt" battery is really 19.2 volts! When they switched to 19.2 volts did the actually stuff one more cell in the packs, or just correct a math mistake? Is it even worth trying to replace just the batteries, or should I just check the perfectly good drill and charger and get something different? Is there any other line of cordless drills being sold today where the batteries can be expected to last more than 3 years (and still be available then)? Are the newfangled Lithium cells any better? Or should I just get a good 1/2" chuck corded drill? I rarely use my drill more than 20 feet from an outlet anyway. Any recommendations on brands or models? I have a corded drill, but it is a $19.95 single-speed non-reversible Black&Decker one that my wife bought before we were married. I think I am due for an upgrade... Rantingly, Doug _______________________________________________ pete at partnercomm.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Dec 7 16:10:00 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 15:10:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01c83926$4aeee5d0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> FWIW, I have exactly the same issue with my 12v Ryobi (although I think it's closer to 8 years old). Managed to grab a new pack when Home Depot was closing them out, but my original 2 packs are long gone and the new one is dying. Thought about pitching the cordless and just using the corded Milwaukee I already have, but I've gotten out of the habit of dealing with cords when climbing ladders and crawling around in the attic ... so I'm looking for a new cordless as a present to myself. Anyone look at the DeWalt with the lifetime guarantee batteries ? Randall From mbarre at juno.com Fri Dec 7 17:49:44 2007 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:49:44 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! Message-ID: <20071207.194944.8747.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> Tough to beat a 1/2" Dewalt hammer drill! Not terribly portable, but it will get er done. Matt -- Doug Braun wrote: Hello, I have a 4-year-old Craftsman 18-volt "EX" cordless drill. The two batteries it came with have slowly gotten worse and worse, and are now useless. I need to decide what to do. Sears seems to keep changing their battery styles and voltages. 18 volts was their big deal a few years ago, but now all their sturdier Nicad-based stuff is 19.2 volts! They don't seem to carry any 18-volt "EX" replacement batteries any more. They now have generic Craftsman and "DieHard" 18 and 19.2 volt batteries (with a big variation in price), and I cannot figure out what the difference is. The terminals appear the same as my old ones. anybody how what interchanges with that? What's more, I opened one of my batteries and counted 16 cells. At 1.2 volts per cell, that means my "18-volt" battery is really 19.2 volts! When they switched to 19.2 volts did the actually stuff one more cell in the packs, or just correct a math mistake? Is it even worth trying to replace just the batteries, or should I just check the perfectly good drill and charger and get something different? Is there any other line of cordless drills being sold today where the batteries can be expected to last more than 3 years (and still be available then)? Are the newfangled Lithium cells any better? Or should I just get a good 1/2" chuck corded drill? I rarely use my drill more than 20 feet from an outlet anyway. Any recommendations on brands or models? I have a corded drill, but it is a $19.95 single-speed non-reversible Black&Decker one that my wife bought before we were married. I think I am due for an upgrade... Rantingly, Doug _______________________________________________ mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk _____________________________________________________________ Click now to choose from thousands of designs for your checks! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3m7AkG0tlaOJre4CBADb3pZDDXv nvosf8YO217twgT3bF4l5/ From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Dec 7 18:13:05 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:13:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <1493657104-1197068436-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1396510878-@bxe014.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <87061.8538.qm@web610.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Peter Murray wrote: > Offended at the thought of tossing a good cordless, > I just took the packs to the Batteries Plus (here in > Fairfax, VA) and the folks there replaced the cells > in my two packs for $80 (with a corporate discount). But I bet that you could get a new drill with two new batteries for $79.95 on sale... > > There is no reason you couldn't pick up replacement > cells (online or locally) and rebuild the pack > yourself, if you can afford the time... I opened up one pack. The internal construction is rather complex. Actually, at $40 each, they would not even be overpriced, based on what I saw inside. I have replaced nicads in other things in the past, but these pack have too many connections to make it worth the trouble for me. Doug From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Fri Dec 7 18:39:38 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 19:39:38 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4759F5DA.9060003@hornesystemstx.com> I have an 18V DeWalt 1/2" hammer drill that I have had for about 3 years now that has been flawless. I got it to replace the 14.4V DeWalt 3/8" drills I have been using for about 15 years. Batteries for the 14.4 are still available. I use these drills at least 100 days a year and they have never let me down. I've had to replace the 14.4V batteries after about 5 years, but that isn't bad at all. I've dropped the 14.4 drills over 20' onto concrete, which banged up the case of the drill, but it ran fine after checking it for internal damage (none found). I'm stuck on DeWalt cordless tools. The 18V drill is the biggest drill I need for cordless work, Today it drilled about 50 1" holes through wall double top plates on a partially charged battery. If I need to do more than 50 or so holes I break out the corded right angle DeWalt drill. What I am trying to say is with all this is that I have not found a better cordless drill for the $$. I know folks who have Milwaukee cordless drills who swear by them, but they cost quite a bit more than the DeWalt. Sure you can buy a cheaper drill, but, as you found, you can't get parts or batteries for them in a few years. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Doug Braun: > Hello, > > I have a 4-year-old Craftsman 18-volt "EX" cordless > drill. The two batteries it came with have slowly > gotten worse and worse, and are now useless. I need > to decide what to do. > > Sears seems to keep changing their battery styles and > voltages. 18 volts was their big deal a few years > ago, but now all their sturdier Nicad-based stuff is > 19.2 volts! They don't seem to carry any 18-volt "EX" > replacement batteries any more. They now have generic > Craftsman and "DieHard" 18 and 19.2 volt batteries > (with a big variation in price), and I cannot figure > out what the difference is. The terminals appear the > same as my old ones. anybody how what interchanges > with that? > > What's more, I opened one of my batteries and counted > 16 cells. At 1.2 volts per cell, that means my > "18-volt" battery is really 19.2 volts! When they > switched to 19.2 volts did the actually stuff one more > cell in the packs, or just correct a math mistake? > > Is it even worth trying to replace just the batteries, > or should I just check the perfectly good drill and > charger and get something different? Is there any > other line of cordless drills being sold today where > the batteries can be expected to last more than 3 > years (and still be available then)? Are the > newfangled Lithium cells any better? > > Or should I just get a good 1/2" chuck corded drill? > I rarely use my drill more than 20 feet from an outlet > anyway. Any recommendations on brands or models? I > have a corded drill, but it is a $19.95 single-speed > non-reversible Black&Decker one that my wife bought > before we were married. I think I am due for an > upgrade... > > Rantingly, > Doug > _______________________________________________ > roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Dec 7 19:28:49 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:28:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! Message-ID: <475A0161.2040108@xxiii.com> This place rebuilds your batteries, with what they claim to be higher grade cells, or can uprade many NiCd to NiMh: http://www.primecell.com/index.html And these guys have inexpensive new packs: http://www.heavydutystore.com/TopCell_Power_Tool_Batteries_page_1_c_1399.html -Wayne From mark at sccaprepared.com Fri Dec 7 20:47:55 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 22:47:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Doug Braun wrote: > Is it even worth trying to replace just the batteries, or should I just > check the perfectly good drill and charger and get something different? > Is there any other line of cordless drills being sold today where the > batteries can be expected to last more than 3 years (and still be > available then)? Are the newfangled Lithium cells any better? > > Or should I just get a good 1/2" chuck corded drill? I rarely use my > drill more than 20 feet from an outlet anyway. Any recommendations on > brands or models? I have a corded drill, but it is a $19.95 > single-speed non-reversible Black&Decker one that my wife bought before > we were married. I think I am due for an upgrade... A corded drill is always a good thing to have. Really nice for those situations where your cordless drill batteries are all dead or you're doing some really heavy duty drilling. Of course, a cordless drill is better in every other case. :-) I don't know about other brands, but my Milwaukee 18V stuff I've had for >5 years still has batteries available today and has put up with everything I've thrown at it. You can also get neat stuff like a vehicle charger, etc. But, at $240 (I think it was) for the 18v drill kit I bought, you're talking a bunch of money more than the typically $80 craftsman/whatever cordless. Only you can decide if its worth the money... At the time it was to me, because I also had an 18v Milwaukee cordless impact for use at the track (and back then, the Milwaukee was about the only game in town) and I wanted to be able to use the same batteries. If I were getting only a drill, I don't know if it'd be worth the money or not for my "homeowner that does projects" level of use. I'd be pretty sorely tempted to at least try one of the cheapy harbor freight choices. Whichever way I went, I think I'd either be getting the true chinese crap at Harbor Freight or the true name brand pro stuff... The craftsman, black & decker, etc. stuff seems to me to be chinese crap with a brand name that was good twenty years ago. Mark From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Dec 7 21:54:52 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 20:54:52 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071208045452.GJVL20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> > I'd be pretty sorely tempted to at least try one of > the cheapy harbor freight choices. > > Whichever way I went, I think I'd either be getting the true > chinese crap at Harbor Freight or the true name brand pro > stuff... FWIW, I started with a "cheap Chinese" from Enco (which usually is a small step above HF). Total junk, IMO; I threw it away in just a few months when the trigger broke. The 12V Ryobi (which I regard as still 'consumer' quality, not professional) has been far better, and easily worth it's price (about twice that of the Enco). It does sometimes run out of torque doing things like driving 1/4" lag bolts but otherwise has been a faithful servant. And I really like the lighter weight, especially when working overhead. I'd continue using it if batteries were readily available (might still try to rebuild the packs myself or pay someone else to do so). But since I dislike being treated that way (discontinuing consumables to force me to buy a new drill), I won't be buying a Ryobi again. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Dec 7 21:57:02 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 20:57:02 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight Message-ID: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> Guess I goofed last time, never saw this message appear. Has anyone tried out one of these nibblers ? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46061 Does it really use that much air ? Or did the ad writer goof and quote the SCFM number ? Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 22:12:28 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:12:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight In-Reply-To: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> References: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712072112i1b6ffd99x12bcab2eb75948a4@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 7, 2007 11:57 PM, Randall wrote: > Guess I goofed last time, never saw this message appear. > > Has anyone tried out one of these nibblers ? > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46061 > > Does it really use that much air ? Or did the ad writer goof and quote the > SCFM number ? > I've got one of those. Well, given that it's a few years old, probably a different model. but it came from harbor freight, and looks like that. It uses lots of air, but I wouldn't have though it used that much. It doesn't cut as thick stock as they claim, either, at least not well. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Dec 8 05:52:10 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 07:52:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40712072112i1b6ffd99x12bcab2eb75948a4@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071208075210.00b22e18@pop.east.cox.net> At 12:12 AM 12/8/2007 -0500, David Scheidt wrote: >Has anyone tried out one of these nibblers ? > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46061 I also have one. For thin sheet metal, like car fenders, it's great. There are some issues though: 1. If you're trying to cut off a car fender, or a trunk, it doesn't like the stiffing bends as there isn't a lot of clearence or the opening of the jaws. It really just likes flat metal. 2. Where and how do you plan on using it. If it's in your shop OK. I don't suggest using it out doors - in the grass. The little pieces of metal it cuts go flying. If you're in the grass, the metal shavings will end up there. If you walk barefoot or your pet walks around that area, there is a good chance you/they will get a splinter. They do work quite nicely though. At least mine has. We've used it to section fenders, cut out trunks, and cut flat sheet metal. Not sure how much air it consumes. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From nick at landform.co.uk Sat Dec 8 06:29:38 2007 From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench In-Reply-To: <4759F5DA.9060003@hornesystemstx.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4759F5DA.9060003@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> Hello, Wondering if anyone had experience of the tool here: http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.php?sn=B/Da7150&site=EMAIL241107 I wouldn't like to rely on it for serious use but for plumbing and the odd 20mm nut it looks as though it could be useful. Any pointers to the US price would be useful. Thanks. Nick Brearley From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Dec 8 07:01:39 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:01:39 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4759F5DA.9060003@hornesystemstx.com> <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> Message-ID: <02e701c839a2$daf5dbd0$6401a8c0@niolon> Nick, Black and Decker makes these wrenches . These are the wrenches your wife/daughter will buy you for Christmas... wait a week or so before you buy and look in your stocking here's a link http://www.buyhardwaresupplies.com/?t=5&m=g1&itemNumber=2105120 john All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Brearley" Cc: "Shop-Talk List" Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 7:29 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench > Hello, > > Wondering if anyone had experience of the tool here: > > http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.php?sn=B/Da7150&site=EMAIL241107 > > I wouldn't like to rely on it for serious use but for plumbing and the > odd 20mm nut it looks as though it could be useful. Any pointers to the > US price would be useful. > > Thanks. > > Nick Brearley > _______________________________________________ > jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk From eric at megageek.com Sat Dec 8 07:35:47 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:35:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <001b01c83926$4aeee5d0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: Randall writes... >DeWalt with the lifetime guarantee batteries Do tell! I love the dewalt 18v stuff and I have a ton of the tools. My batteries don't last more than a few years. I looked into replacing the cells myself, only to find it costs about the same as a new battery. If there is a "lifetime" replace battery, I would buy it for sure. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From scott.hall at comcast.net Sat Dec 8 08:54:46 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! Message-ID: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> eh...I have the then-top of the line milwaukee 18v combo pack (drill, circ. saw, and 'hatchet'). the tools are okay, but I have to give the batteries a d and the charger an f-. the charger frequently won't charge the batteries and the batteries died after two years of exceedingly infrequent use (maybe 10 charges each). I think that may be the problem--I use them so infrequently they died. I always used each battery until it was drained, then charged it fully before storing it. anybody know how to make them last longer when they're not being heavily used and charged every day? -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Pat Horne > What I am trying to say is with all this is that I have not found a > better cordless drill for the $$. I know folks who have Milwaukee > cordless drills who swear by them, but they cost quite a bit more than > the DeWalt. Sure you can buy a cheaper drill, but, as you found, you > can't get parts or batteries for them in a few years. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Sat Dec 8 08:57:50 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:57:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench In-Reply-To: <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4759F5DA.9060003@hornesystemstx.com> <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> Message-ID: <475ABEFE.4040907@xxiii.com> Nick Brearley wrote: > Wondering if anyone had experience of the tool here: > http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.php?sn=B/Da7150&site=EMAIL241107 > I wouldn't like to rely on it for serious use but for plumbing and the Just saw one on the "telly" last night. Apparently, it isn't prone to "jumping" into the toilet like regular adjustable wrenches! ;) [you'll see the ad sooner or later] It looks like one of those dumb things they advertise the crap out of around Xmas for clueless gift giving people to buy for the handyman in their life -- who will smile and say "you shouldn't have" -- and mean it! Thankfuly, I haven't seen any ads for the "Snake Light" yet this season! woo hoo! Maybe they finally put that stupid thing to rest. -Wayne From mwhart47 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 09:25:28 2007 From: mwhart47 at yahoo.com (mike hart) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:25:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <640915.18860.qm@web56004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I agree with both the Milwaukee and Dewalt comments. I was an active Electrical Contractor, and we abused our cordless drills. We overworked them, dropped them, and used them for tasks beyond their capabilities. Not intentionally, but stuff happens on the job. The Dewalt 18V was by far the best drill I used, both for what it would do, and battery life and power. The Milwaukee batteries would not hold up, After getting "new and improved" batteries free, twice. I gave up on Milwaukee and stayed with Dewalt. My opinions only. Thanks, Mike - scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > eh...I have the then-top of the line milwaukee 18v > combo pack (drill, circ. saw, and 'hatchet'). the > tools are okay, but I have to give the batteries a d > and the charger an f-. the charger frequently won't > charge the batteries and the batteries died after > two years of exceedingly infrequent use (maybe 10 > charges each). I think that may be the problem--I > use them so infrequently they died. I always used > each battery until it was drained, then charged it > fully before storing it. > > anybody know how to make them last longer when > they're not being heavily used and charged every > day? > > -------------- Original message > ---------------------- > From: Pat Horne > > > What I am trying to say is with all this is that I > have not found a > > better cordless drill for the $$. I know folks who > have Milwaukee > > cordless drills who swear by them, but they cost > quite a bit more than > > the DeWalt. Sure you can buy a cheaper drill, but, > as you found, you > > can't get parts or batteries for them in a few > years. > _______________________________________________ > mwhart47 at yahoo.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Dec 8 11:11:11 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:11:11 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071208181109.JPFZ20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> > Randall writes... > > >DeWalt with the lifetime guarantee batteries Oops ! Mea Culpa ... it's not DeWalt offering the lifetime batteries, it's Ridgid. D'oh! Randall From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Dec 8 11:57:20 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:57:20 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL> If "...always used each battery until it was drained..." means you ran the drill till it stopped or nearly so, you're probably killing the packs. DeWalt (for one) specifically recommends to recharge when the tool begins to noticeably slow down. Remember that a battery pack is many cells in series. The cells are all the same kind, but of course there are tiny manufacturing variations between them, and thus one is the weakest and one is the strongest. If you run the tool till it stops, the weakest cell goes to zero volts first, and the rest of the cells "push" power through it, effectively reverse-charging it. This happens to the second-weakest cell, etc., until the drill completely stops. Reverse-charge a nicad cell a few times and it's ruined. The battery-pack rejuvenation "secrets" you can buy off e-bay tell you how to locate these dead cells and individually force then back to the correct polarity and burn away any shorts in them. I have a copy of a set of these instructions that a friend bought and sent me. He tried it and was thrilled at first, but after a couple of charge/use/recharge cycles his Crapsman packs were shot again. Karl > eh...I have the then-top of the line milwaukee 18v combo pack (drill, > circ. saw, and 'hatchet'). the tools are okay, but I have to give the > batteries a d and the charger an f-. the charger frequently won't charge > the batteries and the batteries died after two years of exceedingly > infrequent use (maybe 10 charges each). I think that may be the > problem--I use them so infrequently they died. I always used each battery > until it was drained, then charged it fully before storing it. > > anybody know how to make them last longer when they're not being heavily > used and charged every day? From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Dec 8 12:11:52 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:11:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cordless Drill Batteries: Reasonably Happy Ending In-Reply-To: <20071208181109.JPFZ20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <126477.52422.qm@web614.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> First of all, I realized that my drill and batteries were over four years old, so I can't complain too much about the fact that they are finally shot. Second, I was wrong when I thought that the 18-volt back had 16 cells instead of 15. There was one missing cell, right in the middle where it was all covered up with insulation sheets. I went to Sears with my drill and an old battery. I noticed that the "Die Hard" model 18-volt battery pack was identical to the old "EX" one that my drill came with, and they were only $28. But then I noticed that the newer model 19.2-volt packs also fit my drill, and they were on sale for only $24.99! So I got one of those instead. So my drill will get a slight power boost. I can't imagine the difference is enough to hurt it in practice. My old 1-hour charger that came with my drill is the exact same model they still sell for all these batteries. One last thing: These batteries have date codes, which you can read through the packaging. My old batteries had "C0331", which means week 31 of 2003. The new batteries have code C0733, which means they are only a few months old. A couple of the 18-volt DieHard batteries on the shelf had a 2005 date code, so caveat emptor. My drill looks exactly like the one they sell today, except that the new one says "19.2V". The drill is pretty sturdy, and I am glad I did not have to throw it out. I have seen cheapo HF electric drills, and I would not want one of those. The DeWalt drill may be nicer for some, but they cost at least $200, and I bet new batteries are $50 or more. One final tip: Sears sells a generic Craftsman 18-volt battery that fits my drill, but it will NOT fit the 1-hour charger. It also costs more than the correct DieHard pack. Avoid that model! Fortunately my local Sears had a lot of chargers and spare packs lying around so I could plug-and-play. Doug From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Dec 8 12:12:26 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:12:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <20071208191225.OSOA20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> > If "...always used each battery until it was drained..." > means you ran the drill till it stopped or nearly so, you're > probably killing the packs. Exactly so. The supposed need to drain NiCad batteries completely for long life is basically a myth; a misunderstanding of the "memory effect" that got a lot of press time many years ago. Unless you are putting a satellite in orbit (so it gets sunlight/charge current for exactly the same amount of time each day, followed by exactly the same discharge each day); AND have a circuit that shuts things down if the voltage dips just a little below normal; then the "memory effect" can safely be ignored. Any voltage reversal on a NiCad dry cell will cause a (tiny) short between the plates. The short may or may not self-heal when the cell is charged the right way, but as Karl notes, it will eventually stay shorted. Sometimes you can forcibly burn the short away, but since you are literally burning a hole in the plate, the capacity will be reduced (meaning that cell is even more likely to short the next time). Eventually of course, there is no capacity left. Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Dec 8 12:49:28 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:49:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench In-Reply-To: <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> Message-ID: <745073.53172.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> These are in all the Home Depots here. They are $29.97. All this does is use a motor to open and close the wrench. For occasional use you would save maybe two minutes a year of your valuable time. I bet 90% will be bought as gifts. Have you seen the electric tape measure? That might actually be worth having... Doug --- Nick Brearley wrote: > Hello, > > Wondering if anyone had experience of the tool here: > > http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.php?sn=B/Da7150&site=EMAIL241107 > > I wouldn't like to rely on it for serious use but > for plumbing and the > odd 20mm nut it looks as though it could be useful. > Any pointers to the > US price would be useful. From nogera2 at att.net Sat Dec 8 13:19:42 2007 From: nogera2 at att.net (nogera2 at att.net) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:19:42 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Paint & Body groups Message-ID: <000001c839d7$ad0c1060$4101a8c0@CARROOM> Anyone know of a good Auto body painting newsgroup or forum? Bob From nick at landform.co.uk Sat Dec 8 13:20:07 2007 From: nick at landform.co.uk (Nick Brearley) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 20:20:07 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench In-Reply-To: <745073.53172.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <745073.53172.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <475AFC77.3060502@landform.co.uk> Doug Braun wrote: > Have you seen the electric tape measure? That might > actually be worth having... > Yes, but does it collapse just six inches short of its target? Like true tape measures do... Nick From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Sat Dec 8 16:14:15 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:14:15 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench In-Reply-To: <745073.53172.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <745073.53172.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <475B2547.4000902@hornesystemstx.com> I had a couple of the digital read out tape measures about 5 years ago. I can't remember the manufacturer. They were about $30 and worked fairly well, but not for more than a year before they went bad. The only addition to this tape would be the possibility of setting a negative offset to the tape so you could lay out studs based on the first stud in from the corner, rather than the end stud. The best electronic tape measure I found that was actually useful had a voice recorder built in. You could take a bunch of measurements, say for base board, then go to the saw and have it speak each dimension back to you. It was a cheap tape and the measuring tape itself was cheap and broke before the first set of batteries wore out. Replacement tapes were not available. Oh well, it was a good attempt at a usable tool! Peace, Pat Thusly spake Doug Braun: > Have you seen the electric tape measure? That might > actually be worth having... > > Doug > > --- Nick Brearley wrote: > > >> Hello, >> >> Wondering if anyone had experience of the tool here: >> >> >> > http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.php?sn=B/Da7150&site=EMAIL241107 > >> I wouldn't like to rely on it for serious use but >> for plumbing and the >> odd 20mm nut it looks as though it could be useful. >> Any pointers to the >> US price would be useful. >> > _______________________________________________ > roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Sat Dec 8 16:23:12 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:23:12 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <475B2760.7090000@hornesystemstx.com> Interesting. The electricians I work with at Habitat for Humanity will use only Milwaukee drills. I've seen them walk out of the house to get one of their drills when there is a DeWalt sitting a few feet away. It may be an electrician thing, most electricians I see drilling holes through studs for wires use a Milwaukee Hole Hog. According to an electrician friend of mine Milwaukee is the only manufacturer of power tools still made them the USA. I'd be surprised if even the Milwaukee tools are made here. They used to be,as were DeWalt, but the bean counters are always looking for a way to make things less expensively. (I almost said "cheaper", but that happened to most tools long ago). Thusly spake scott.hall at comcast.net: > eh...I have the then-top of the line milwaukee 18v combo pack (drill, circ. saw, and 'hatchet'). the tools are okay, but I have to give the batteries a d and the charger an f-. the charger frequently won't charge the batteries and the batteries died after two years of exceedingly infrequent use (maybe 10 charges each). I think that may be the problem--I use them so infrequently they died. I always used each battery until it was drained, then charged it fully before storing it. > > anybody know how to make them last longer when they're not being heavily used and charged every day? > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: Pat Horne > > >> What I am trying to say is with all this is that I have not found a >> better cordless drill for the $$. I know folks who have Milwaukee >> cordless drills who swear by them, but they cost quite a bit more than >> the DeWalt. Sure you can buy a cheaper drill, but, as you found, you >> can't get parts or batteries for them in a few years. >> > _______________________________________________ > roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From pethier at comcast.net Sat Dec 8 16:45:48 2007 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 23:45:48 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench Message-ID: <120820072345.3124.475B2CAC000D03E100000C3422070032019D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> From: Wayne > Thankfuly, I haven't seen any ads for the "Snake Light" yet this season! > woo hoo! Maybe they finally put that stupid thing to rest. I find the snake light useful. I often wrap it around the back of my neck, with the battery hanging down the front on one side and the lamp aimed at my work on the other. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From arvidj at visi.com Sat Dec 8 16:49:00 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 17:49:00 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench References: <745073.53172.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005f01c839f4$e824abe0$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> > Have you seen the electric tape measure? That might > actually be worth having... Yes, I have a very old version of this one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00002254Y?smid=A3ONVYY4BUAORQ&tag=dealtime-tools-mp-20&linkCode=asn Judging from the reviews, you either get a good one or a bad one. I happen to have gotten a good one. The things I really like about it are: (a) The memory feature where I measure something in a rather awkward place, push the red button, and then no worry if the tape retracts or not because the value is in the LCD. (b) and this is a big one - I can call my wife on the phone, have her take the tape and measure something, and simply read me the answer from the LCD. Note that reading the tape - ignoring the fact that we might have to add in the size of the case for an inside measurement - is not something that is going to happen if she has to do it any othe way. It is not the only tape I have in the shop but if two of them happen to be sitting side by side when I need a tape it is the one that I pick up. I've had it for many years and have only had to put one battery in it, which is a good thing because it doesn't seem to be the "hanging on the grocery checkout" type of battery. Arvid From mbarre at juno.com Sat Dec 8 17:03:14 2007 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 00:03:14 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Wrench now Snakelite Message-ID: <20071208.190314.18540.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> While living in Alaska, I became a believer in the little LED strap on headlights. Indispensable on those pre dawn fishing expeditions. Now that I am back in the lower 48 I still use the headlamp a lot in the shop. I have also found the snakelight useful in situations where I needed to mold it to keep the light where I wanted it. There was a time when I could get the wife or kids to hold a light for me but those days are long gone! Matt in GA -- pethier at comcast.net wrote: From: Wayne > Thankfuly, I haven't seen any ads for the "Snake Light" yet this season! > woo hoo! Maybe they finally put that stupid thing to rest. I find the snake light useful. I often wrap it around the back of my neck, with the battery hanging down the front on one side and the lamp aimed at my work on the other. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. _______________________________________________ mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk _____________________________________________________________ Warm up your outdoor get togethers with a great looking outdoor fireplace. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3mZWeH6wxQvIdArDjb1iD9DeVZi 8IM9YZ2nb6tIgIGJ1XXaC/ From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Dec 8 17:18:01 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:18:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <475B2760.7090000@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <20071209001802.WBDY1480.mta15.adelphia.net@randall> > According to an > electrician friend of mine Milwaukee is the only manufacturer > of power tools still made them the USA. I'd be surprised if > even the Milwaukee tools are made here. The Milwaukee web site seems remarkably close-mouthed about where they are actually made. I was pretty unhappy with my first (and only) Milwaukee power tool, a 1/2" corded drill. The speed control was bad when I got it, and the chuck had a stiff spot that it could not be turned through by hand (motor would turn first). Took it back under warranty 3 different times ... first two times they didn't fix the problems and the third time they actually fixed it. But the third time they also charged me roughly 1/2 the price of the drill, because the warranty had expired while they had it ! It's worked well ever since, but if that is what the best professional-grade tool in the USA is like, I'll stick with the cheap stuff ! Oh yeah, I've had to replace the cord too, but that's not unreasonable for a 20-year old tool. Except that my cheap B&D drill motor (which I use mostly for spinning the lathe chuck) is even older and it's original cord is still just fine. Randall From cavanadd at verizon.net Sat Dec 8 17:32:58 2007 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:32:58 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071208162713.0284d738@incoming.verizon.net> At 10:47 PM 12/7/2007 -0500, Mark Andy wrote: >Whichever way I went, I think I'd either be getting the true chinese crap >at Harbor Freight or the true name brand pro stuff... I had three H.F. cordless drill/drivers I bought when I was building my pole shed several years ago. My 7 volt Makita had died and I didn't want to spend a bunch of money and do a lot of research on drill/drivers, and H.F. had their 14.4 volt drills on sale for something like $12.00 each. I got three because they didn't have a quick charger and I wanted one for drilling, one for driving and one for a spare. The biggest drawbacks were the six hour charge time, and the fact that they didn't have a high/low speed range. That being said I used them for something like 3 or 4 years after the project was finished. Eventually the batteries stopped taking a good charge so I tossed them and replaced them with a 14.4 volt DeWalt with a quick charger and 2 batteries. I have it's identical little 12 volt brother at school in my wood shop, and I love them both. Long battery charge life, quick charging and they seem very sturdy. You can usually find them on sale for under $100 without too much trouble. I can't really tell much functional difference between the 12 and 14.4 volt models; the latter may hold a charge a little longer, is all. Dave C From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Dec 8 17:44:57 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 18:44:57 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spridgets - a little off-topic Message-ID: <006701c839fc$b9182bd0$6e01a8c0@KARL> Can anyone tell me what happened to the Team.net Spridgets list ? I've been off of it for a while and now that I need it again I find that it's not on Team.net any more. Did it move somewhere ? Thanks! Karl From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Dec 8 18:18:51 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 20:18:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spridgets - a little off-topic References: <006701c839fc$b9182bd0$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <003501c83a01$93ed7450$0202a8c0@ejrussell> Lookie here: http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Vacek" > Can anyone tell me what happened to the Team.net Spridgets list ? > I've been > off of it for a while and now that I need it again I find that it's > not on > Team.net any more. Did it move somewhere ? From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Dec 8 18:25:22 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:25:22 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spridgets - a little off-topic References: <006701c839fc$b9182bd0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <003501c83a01$93ed7450$0202a8c0@ejrussell> Message-ID: <001701c83a02$5ef6fe50$6e01a8c0@KARL> OK - I'm a dummy. I checked the Team.net website and got links to the old Majordomo system, which still responds and says that it doesn't recognize the Spridgets list. But your linke went somewhere else and did indeed work. Thanks! Karl > Lookie here: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo > > Eric Russell > Mebane, NC > http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Vacek" > > >> Can anyone tell me what happened to the Team.net Spridgets list ? I've >> been >> off of it for a while and now that I need it again I find that it's not >> on >> Team.net any more. Did it move somewhere ? From jblair1948 at cox.net Sat Dec 8 19:56:52 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:56:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: <475ABEFE.4040907@xxiii.com> References: <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4759F5DA.9060003@hornesystemstx.com> <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071208215652.00b22e18@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:57 AM 12/8/2007 -0500, Wayne wrote: >Thankfuly, I haven't seen any ads for the "Snake Light" yet this season! >woo hoo! Maybe they finally put that stupid thing to rest. Actually, I liked my snake light. The fact that I could wrap it around my neck and have light where I wanted/needed it. But mine has gone bye-bye. Last xmas my wife got me a stocking stuffer, an LED flashlight on a strap to wear around your head. I've seen them on some ad on TV with a bunch of kids waiting for Santa. Anyway, when I opend it, I though - Oh great! I'd rather have had a gift card to Starbucks or McDonalds. :) Anyway, I started using it. I've found I really like it. When I'm working on electronics projects and need a lot more light, when working under a dash in a car. I really like it. Turns out to be one of the better gifts I got last Xmas. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From bobkegel at seanet.com Sat Dec 8 20:04:40 2007 From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:04:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Wrench now Snakelite In-Reply-To: <20071208.190314.18540.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <000901c83a10$40e69480$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> On Saturday, December 08, 2007, at 16:03, Matt in GA wrote: > While living in Alaska, I became a believer in the little LED > strap on headlights. We just went through a five-day power outage and I wore my LED headlamp almost around the clock. Even during the daytime there were plenty of dark corners in the house. I wore it to bed so I could find the matches to light the candle if I had to get up. It gets really, really dark at night when the whole county is blacked out. Bob Kegel Aberdeen, WA From rbeels at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 19:46:35 2007 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:46:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL> References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20071208214542.03d1e690@yahoo.com> Got a copy of those directions handy? I have a couple battery packs that could use some.... rejuvenation, yeah, that's the word..... At 12/8/2007 at 13:57, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Karl Vacek's keyboard and said: >The battery-pack rejuvenation "secrets" you can buy off e-bay tell you how >to locate these dead cells and individually force then back to the correct >polarity and burn away any shorts in them. I have a copy of a set of these >instructions that a friend bought and sent me. He tried it and was thrilled >at first, but after a couple of charge/use/recharge cycles his Crapsman >packs were shot again. Cheers! From rbeels at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 19:54:10 2007 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:54:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight In-Reply-To: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> References: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20071208214914.027c01b0@yahoo.com> It leaves LOADS of the little crescent moon bits everywhere and yes, it uses a lot of air - as much as a grinder but I don't pay attention to CFM #s because my compressor keeps up. The comment about flat stock being required is too true. I think you'd be better off getting the shears for most things (less mess too!). The nibble does leave a nicer edge than the shears when you start getting to thicker panels. Also, the nibblers can just start wandering away on you if you're not careful. Don't ask me how I know that..... At 12/7/2007 at 23:57, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Randall's keyboard and said: >Guess I goofed last time, never saw this message appear. > >Has anyone tried out one of these nibblers ? >http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46061 > >Does it really use that much air ? Or did the ad writer goof and quote the >SCFM number ? Cheers! From rbeels at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 19:58:35 2007 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:58:35 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Autowrench Adjustable Wrench In-Reply-To: <120820072345.3124.475B2CAC000D03E100000C3422070032019D0A07 089B0A9F@comcast.net> References: <120820072345.3124.475B2CAC000D03E100000C3422070032019D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20071208215611.03d1f530@yahoo.com> Goto X-mart and buy one of the Energizer head-lights. $12, LEDs, uses 2 AAs and has a few different modes (spot, wide, both, red lights), adjustable head and elastic. I have one in the garage box, first aid kits, travel carry-on and desk drawer at home (for when the power goes out)... At 12/8/2007 at 18:45, Shakespearean monkeys danced on pethier at comcast.net's keyboard and said: >I find the snake light useful. I often wrap it around the back of >my neck, with the battery hanging down the front on one side and the >lamp aimed at my work on the other. Cheers! From paul.mele at usermail.com Sat Dec 8 20:12:51 2007 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:12:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Since we are talking about engines In-Reply-To: <029801c838fc$c7ecad30$57c60790$@net> References: <200710291925.l9TJPR8b014467@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com> <029801c838fc$c7ecad30$57c60790$@net> Message-ID: <000401c83a11$63f6e8c0$2be4ba40$@mele@usermail.com> Love it! < > Autoweek reports both Lotus and Bosch working on 6-cycle engines with > an added power stroke over 4-cycle engines. The additional power > stroke pulls some "Oxygen-free radicals" back in from the exhaust and > ignites them along with some extra fuel using compression (Dieseling). > The result is said to be significantly greater power and torque with > lower emissions. Lotus Engineering technical director Simon Wood > claims a significant reduction in greenhouse gas emissions and V8 > performance from a 4-cylinder engine. >> From mark at sccaprepared.com Sat Dec 8 20:36:00 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:36:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] toolbox review Message-ID: Howdy, A while back, I asked about inexpensive versions of pro toolboxes... I.e. chinese versions that had a good strong design, but where the QC might be a little more hit and miss. I didn't buy the full shopbox, but I did recently buy one of these to turn into a toolbox for our trailer / racing: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90321 I'm adding some wheels, a handle, a way to mount it to the wall, etc. I figure by the time I'm done, I'll have put 30 hours into modifying the damn thing. :-) But it'll also be a toolbox that's the right size and setup for what I want. But that's not really why I'm posting... I'm posting because I've been quite impressed with the construction. This thing is _much_ more heavy duty than my craftsman roller bearing toolbox... Fairly thick sheet metal, the bottom two double height drawers have double slides, good constuction/design choices, etc. I could be happier with it. If that translates to the other components for this system (and it seems to, from playing with them in the store), this toolbox is a heck of a buy. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92099 (the one I played with in the store had double slides on the bottom drawer) and http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90320 They also have this one, that I've never seen in person: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94496 and http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94497 If its built the same way it seems like it would also be a great box. But, I've never seen one in person and with Harbor Freight I wouldn't buy it unless I could put my hands on it. Now, all that said, I was at a buddy's shop today and was (once again) blown away by their pro Matco toolboxes. But the one double bay rollaway I just looked at on their website lists for $3.6k... Its too bad. Those boxes just feel _so_ solid & smooth. The harbor freight stuff feels similarly rugged in general, but not finished as well. Anyway, just thought I'd share. If I were upgrading from my current 26" craftsman box, I'd 100% go with the HF 42" combo above. Mark From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Dec 8 21:07:46 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:07:46 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net><004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL> <6.2.5.6.2.20071208214542.03d1e690@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004701c83a19$0e8b1b10$6e01a8c0@KARL> Sent. If anyone else wants a copy, post me off-list and I'll be glad to forward it. But remember that my friend had pretty poor results - they worked for a few charge cycles, then eventually died again. He bought new ones when Sears had a sale. Karl > Got a copy of those directions handy? I have a couple battery packs > that could use some.... > > rejuvenation, yeah, that's the word..... > > > At 12/8/2007 at 13:57, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Karl Vacek's > keyboard and said: > >>The battery-pack rejuvenation "secrets" you can buy off e-bay tell you how >>to locate these dead cells and individually force then back to the correct >>polarity and burn away any shorts in them. I have a copy of a set of >>these >>instructions that a friend bought and sent me. He tried it and was >>thrilled >>at first, but after a couple of charge/use/recharge cycles his Crapsman >>packs were shot again. From mark at bradakis.com Sat Dec 8 21:17:32 2007 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J. Bradakis) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:17:32 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spridgets - a little off-topic In-Reply-To: <001701c83a02$5ef6fe50$6e01a8c0@KARL> References: <006701c839fc$b9182bd0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <003501c83a01$93ed7450$0202a8c0@ejrussell> <001701c83a02$5ef6fe50$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <475B6C5C.4030209@bradakis.com> Karl Vacek wrote: >OK - I'm a dummy. > > Don't feel too bad, the responsibility is mine. I'm taking my sweet time migrating all the lists from majordomo to mailman, so things are in a slowly changing state. I *thought* I had put a note about checking both mailman and majordomo pages when looking for lists, but I just looked and obviously it wasn't where I thought it was. I'll work on it soon. Remember, though, this is just something I do on a part time volunteer basis, have been for nearly 20 years. Wonder what my life would be like if I just hit the off button ;-) I don't plan on doing that, but will try to make a better effort at keeping the server software and information in better sync. Right now things are quite a mess, bear with me. mjb. From bill at gingerich.us Sat Dec 8 22:26:18 2007 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:26:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <004701c83a19$0e8b1b10$6e01a8c0@KARL> References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net><004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL><6.2.5.6.2.20071208214542.03d1e690@yahoo.com> <004701c83a19$0e8b1b10$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> The recent discussion of batteries, as well as other topics, has contained numerous references to Horrible Freight, Crapsman, and other "cute" variations of company and trade names. Somewhere along the way I started wondering why we feel the need to use these names. We all know that HF isn't selling stuff you'd find on a Snap-On truck. Yes, their quality control, design, construction, etc. can leave a bit to be desired. But if you keep those things in mind you can find some useable stuff. I don't buy tools because they have the Craftsman name, nor do I avoid them. I have several HF tools, as well as various Craftsman tools, and they serve my needs just fine. Others of you may not like them, and that is your prerogative. This isn't really an important question in the grand scheme of things. And no, I'm not a bleeding heart, politically correct, communist radical evangelical agnostic environmentalist. I'm just curious why we use these names. I have to leave now to go charge my 9.6 volt Craftsman drill batteries. Later! Bill G Newalla, OK From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Dec 8 23:23:46 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:23:46 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> Message-ID: <20071209062346.SWQC1480.mta15.adelphia.net@randall> > I'm just curious why we use these names. Puns are the lowest form of humor ... From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 23:25:26 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 01:25:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <20071209062346.SWQC1480.mta15.adelphia.net@randall> References: <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> <20071209062346.SWQC1480.mta15.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712082225g589a92c7p4b178acf6eb5fed@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 9, 2007 1:23 AM, Randall wrote: > > I'm just curious why we use these names. > > Puns are the lowest form of humor ... The sole of wit, in fact. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sun Dec 9 07:22:20 2007 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 09:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071208215652.00b22e18@pop.east.cox.net> References: <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4759F5DA.9060003@hornesystemstx.com> <475A9C42.3080400@landform.co.uk> <3.0.5.32.20071208215652.00b22e18@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20071209142220.GA64121@sackheads.org> On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 09:56:52PM -0500, John T. Blair wrote: > At 10:57 AM 12/8/2007 -0500, Wayne wrote: > > Last xmas my wife got me a stocking stuffer, an LED flashlight on a strap > to wear around your head. I've seen them on some ad on TV with a bunch of > kids waiting for Santa. > > Anyway, when I opend it, I though - Oh great! I'd rather have had a gift > card to Starbucks or McDonalds. :) Anyway, I started using it. I've found > I really like it. When I'm working on electronics projects and need a lot > more light, when working under a dash in a car. I really like it. Turns > out to be one of the better gifts I got last Xmas. > I'm a self-described "flash-aholic" and have about 2 dozen flashlights around the house, garage and car. Earlier this summer, I bought a $6 LED headlamp from an importer (www.dealextreme.com, I think) and I've decided that it's probably the most useful little light I have. It's not by brightest flashlight nor is it the smallest but there's a lot to be said for a hands-free light that doesn't need constant repositioning. Build quality isn't great but at $6, everybody should have at least one in their toolbox. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sun Dec 9 08:18:52 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:18:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spridgets - a little off-topic References: <006701c839fc$b9182bd0$6e01a8c0@KARL><003501c83a01$93ed7450$0202a8c0@ejrussell><001701c83a02$5ef6fe50$6e01a8c0@KARL> <475B6C5C.4030209@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <003501c83a76$d2570790$0202a8c0@ejrussell> Don't even THINK such thoughts. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Bradakis" > Remember, though, this is just something I do on a part time > volunteer > basis, have been for nearly 20 years. > Wonder what my life would be like if I just hit the off button ;-) From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Dec 9 12:46:06 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:46:06 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: <20071209142220.GA64121@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> > Earlier this > summer, I bought a $6 LED headlamp from an importer > (www.dealextreme.com, I think) WOW ! What a candy store ! Any idea which one you got ? I've already found 4 different ones, prices ranging from $5 to $9 and there's another 25 pages of LED & battery stuff to go ... Randall From rbeels at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 13:14:04 2007 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:14:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL> <6.2.5.6.2.20071208214542.03d1e690@yahoo.com> <004701c83a19$0e8b1b10$6e01a8c0@KARL> <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20071209150904.03aecb70@yahoo.com> It reinforces the sense of community we have. We all have shared knuckle-busting experiences when a socket either rounds off the fastener or the sidewall snaps. Or having having an HF grinder die 5 minutes after starting to use it. You missed: Snap Off Home Despot Crap-Mart China-Mart Milwaucan't DeWerst My father-in-law just adds "piece of crap" (sic) in front of something he doesn't like. Not very cute that.... :-) At 12/9/2007 at 00:26, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Bill Gingerich's keyboard and said: >The recent discussion of batteries, as well as other topics, has contained >numerous references to Horrible Freight, Crapsman, and other "cute" >variations of company and trade names. Somewhere along the way I started >wondering why we feel the need to use these names. We all know that HF >isn't selling stuff you'd find on a Snap-On truck. Yes, their quality >control, design, construction, etc. can leave a bit to be desired. But if >you keep those things in mind you can find some useable stuff. I don't buy >tools because they have the Craftsman name, nor do I avoid them. I have >several HF tools, as well as various Craftsman tools, and they serve my >needs just fine. Others of you may not like them, and that is your >prerogative. > >This isn't really an important question in the grand scheme of things. And >no, I'm not a bleeding heart, politically correct, communist radical >evangelical agnostic environmentalist. I'm just curious why we use these >names. > >I have to leave now to go charge my 9.6 volt Craftsman drill batteries. > >Later! Cheers! From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 13:41:52 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:41:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071209150904.03aecb70@yahoo.com> References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL> <6.2.5.6.2.20071208214542.03d1e690@yahoo.com> <004701c83a19$0e8b1b10$6e01a8c0@KARL> <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> <6.2.5.6.2.20071209150904.03aecb70@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712091241m5b4fa921r8d6f40b4eb20bbce@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 9, 2007 3:14 PM, Richard Beels wrote: > It reinforces the sense of community we have. We all have shared > knuckle-busting experiences when a socket either rounds off the > fastener or the sidewall snaps. Or having having an HF grinder die 5 > minutes after starting to use it. > My all time favorite defective out of the box tool was a snap-on screwdriver that was missing the screwdriver. Just the plastic handle. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From chad at linuxeg.com Sun Dec 9 13:56:45 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:56:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net><004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL><6.2.5.6.2.20071208214542.03d1e690@yahoo.com> <004701c83a19$0e8b1b10$6e01a8c0@KARL> <000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2> Message-ID: <475C568D.3060107@linuxeg.com> This is something that really needed to be said! Thanks, Chad Bill Gingerich wrote: >The recent discussion of batteries, as well as other topics, has contained >numerous references to Horrible Freight, Crapsman, and other "cute" >variations of company and trade names. Somewhere along the way I started >wondering why we feel the need to use these names. We all know that HF >isn't selling stuff you'd find on a Snap-On truck. Yes, their quality >control, design, construction, etc. can leave a bit to be desired. But if >you keep those things in mind you can find some useable stuff. I don't buy >tools because they have the Craftsman name, nor do I avoid them. I have >several HF tools, as well as various Craftsman tools, and they serve my >needs just fine. Others of you may not like them, and that is your >prerogative. > >This isn't really an important question in the grand scheme of things. And >no, I'm not a bleeding heart, politically correct, communist radical >evangelical agnostic environmentalist. I'm just curious why we use these >names. > >I have to leave now to go charge my 9.6 volt Craftsman drill batteries. > >Later! > >Bill G >Newalla, OK >_______________________________________________ >chad at linuxeg.com > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk From shiples at comcast.net Sun Dec 9 14:06:24 2007 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:06:24 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spridgets - a little off-topic In-Reply-To: <003501c83a76$d2570790$0202a8c0@ejrussell> References: <006701c839fc$b9182bd0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <003501c83a01$93ed7450$0202a8c0@ejrussell> <001701c83a02$5ef6fe50$6e01a8c0@KARL> <475B6C5C.4030209@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071209124551.03ec8b30@mail.comcast.net> > > Wonder what my life would be like if I just hit the off button ;-) Your life would be just fine, there are others that wouldn't. Although I'm just fine at the moment, I've seen the test results. As a result, I'm preparing for my personal off button. Does team.net disappear if you do? Steve Shipley From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Dec 9 14:46:36 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 13:46:36 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <475C568D.3060107@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <20071209214636.GYFX20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> > This is something that really needed to be said! It did ? Ok, let me be clear about my own opinions then. I buy a lot of stuff from Harbor Freight. That excludes anything where I need to rely on it's precision (micrometers and such) or anything I would need to use to make a living (which for me pretty much excludes anything HF offers). Otherwise, I have been satisfied with the vast majority of things I've bought from them. No, the quality is not the best, and quality control is non-existent (I once got a socket that was a solid cylinder of metal), but the price frequently makes it possible for me to own the 'right' tool for a job where I would not be willing/able to pay for a higher quality tool. I'd say I was sorry if anyone chose to be offended by my lame attempt at humor ... but that is your choice, not mine. BTW, thanks to all that responded to my "horrible" question. I'm going to buy one this afternoon. No, it won't be as good as the $175 equivalent from Snap-On, but for $20 it will very likely fulfill my VERY occasional needs. And even if it only lasts 2 or 3 uses, it will still be far more cost-effective for me than the Snap-On unit. Randall From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 15:36:48 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 17:36:48 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <20071209214636.GYFX20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> References: <475C568D.3060107@linuxeg.com> <20071209214636.GYFX20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712091436g6c8089b0i6cbd6ccb3fed5779@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 9, 2007 4:46 PM, Randall wrote: > > This is something that really needed to be said! > > It did ? > > Ok, let me be clear about my own opinions then. I buy a lot of stuff from > Harbor Freight. That excludes anything where I need to rely on it's > precision (micrometers and such) or anything I would need to use to make a > living (which for me pretty much excludes anything HF offers). Otherwise, I > have been satisfied with the vast majority of things I've bought from them. > No, the quality is not the best, and quality control is non-existent (I once > got a socket that was a solid cylinder of metal), but the price frequently > makes it possible for me to own the 'right' tool for a job where I would not > be willing/able to pay for a higher quality tool. > That's pretty much my take on HF and other vendors of cheap imported tools. I've got probably close to 100 C-clamps from them (It is, in fact, possible to have too many, it turns out.), several cheap air tools, a pair of angle grinders, a small drill press, and some other highly-non precision tools. I do have a couple calipers and a dial indicator, which match my expensive ones. For things that I use a lot, I much prefer to have high-quality tools. For something I bought to do one job, I'll settle for junk. If I use it again, it's a bonus. > I'd say I was sorry if anyone chose to be offended by my lame attempt at > humor ... but that is your choice, not mine. > > BTW, thanks to all that responded to my "horrible" question. I'm going to > buy one this afternoon. No, it won't be as good as the $175 equivalent from > Snap-On, but for $20 it will very likely fulfill my VERY occasional needs. > And even if it only lasts 2 or 3 uses, it will still be far more > cost-effective for me than the Snap-On unit. > > Randall > > _______________________________________________ > dmscheidt at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Sun Dec 9 20:02:45 2007 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:02:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> References: <20071209142220.GA64121@sackheads.org> <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <20071210030245.GA87516@sackheads.org> On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 11:46:06AM -0800, Randall wrote: > WOW ! What a candy store ! Any idea which one you got ? I've already > found 4 different ones, prices ranging from $5 to $9 and there's another 25 > pages of LED & battery stuff to go ... They do have a lot of stuff, don't they? Most of it is crap but there are some good values. This looks like the headlamp I have: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.479 They have some other LED lights that are worth looking at. I have an older 1-mode Ultrafire C3 that I like a lot. It puts all my incandescent lights to shame (including both my 6V lanterns). Bang for buck, it's hard to beat. Looks like it's been updated to include a 5-mode switch: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7938 Then there are the higher-end brands like Fenix, Surefire and Novatac but most folks will have a hard time justifying their prices (and rightly so given the performance that can be had for $20-$30). Anybody who's still using an incandescent flashlight (or who hasn't looked beyond the LED Maglites) owes it to themselves to take a look. It's a night and day difference. Jimmie From bill at gingerich.us Sun Dec 9 21:47:27 2007 From: bill at gingerich.us (Bill Gingerich) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:47:27 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <20071209214636.GYFX20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> References: <475C568D.3060107@linuxeg.com> <20071209214636.GYFX20723.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <002a01c83ae7$c413fdc0$64dea8c0@shack2> Since I started this tread, I'll add one comment and then consider it a dead subject. I've never been offended by anything on this list. I really was just curious why some choose to use these variations of names. I'm done now. Thanks to all for their comments. BillG -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+bill=gingerich.us at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:47 PM Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names > This is something that really needed to be said! It did ? Ok, let me be clear about my own opinions then. I buy a lot of stuff from Harbor Freight. That excludes anything where I need to rely on it's precision (micrometers and such) or anything I would need to use to make a living (which for me pretty much excludes anything HF offers). Otherwise, I have been satisfied with the vast majority of things I've bought from them. No, the quality is not the best, and quality control is non-existent (I once got a socket that was a solid cylinder of metal), but the price frequently makes it possible for me to own the 'right' tool for a job where I would not be willing/able to pay for a higher quality tool. I'd say I was sorry if anyone chose to be offended by my lame attempt at humor ... but that is your choice, not mine. BTW, thanks to all that responded to my "horrible" question. I'm going to buy one this afternoon. No, it won't be as good as the $175 equivalent from Snap-On, but for $20 it will very likely fulfill my VERY occasional needs. And even if it only lasts 2 or 3 uses, it will still be far more cost-effective for me than the Snap-On unit. Randall From robolane at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 9 23:09:49 2007 From: robolane at sbcglobal.net (ROBERT LANE) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:09:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight tools Message-ID: <201961.56172.qm@web82014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a little bit of all kinds of tools, craftsman, snap-on, thorson, and s&k. But most of my tools are Harbor Freight. I know they are cheap, and I have had some disappointments, but overall I get good useage out of them. The reasons I buy Harbor Freight are, by bying them on sale & using coupons I can buy a lot more variety of tools,and I have a lot of them. Besides that I am cheap. If a power tools go bad, I can throw them away and by another one. If I had a high dollar power tool and it goes bad, it would cost me more to repair it than a new Harbor Freight one would cost. I wish I could afford those name brand stuff, but I can't.. This my 2 cents worth. I know that not everyone has the same mind set. I enjoy this forum and Iearning about other peoples thoughts and Ideas. CATCH YOU LATER, ROBO From mark at bradakis.com Mon Dec 10 01:45:58 2007 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J. Bradakis) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:45:58 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Spridgets - a little off-topic In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071209124551.03ec8b30@mail.comcast.net> References: <006701c839fc$b9182bd0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <003501c83a01$93ed7450$0202a8c0@ejrussell> <001701c83a02$5ef6fe50$6e01a8c0@KARL> <475B6C5C.4030209@bradakis.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20071209124551.03ec8b30@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <475CFCC6.6060109@bradakis.com> Steve Shipley wrote: >Does team.net disappear if you do? > > At the moment, yes. If I get struck by lightning or my little Spitfire gets smashed by some clueless clump of human debris at the wheel of their SUV or whatever, there won't be anyone to keep things going. I have been giving it some thought, though, and plan to talk to a couple of folks about contingency plans, at least something that would let folks know that I'm dead, and that's that. Don't worry, I'm not planning on going away soon! mjb. From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Mon Dec 10 09:09:43 2007 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:09:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40712091241m5b4fa921r8d6f40b4eb20bbce@mail.gmail.com> References: <120820071554.6459.475ABE460004B26C0000193B220588448404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net><004201c839cc$2949e780$6e01a8c0@KARL><6.2.5.6.2.20071208214542.03d1e690@yahoo.com><004701c83a19$0e8b1b10$6e01a8c0@KARL><000b01c83a24$06e2f530$64dea8c0@shack2><6.2.5.6.2.20071209150904.03aecb70@yahoo.com> <2400a5d40712091241m5b4fa921r8d6f40b4eb20bbce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Scheidt [mailto:dmscheidt at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 12:42 PM > To: Richard Beels > Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now > "cute" names > > My all time favorite defective out of the box tool was a > snap-on screwdriver that was missing the screwdriver. Just > the plastic handle. LOL - I think I got the other half... I had a broken screwdriver that the snapon guy pulled out the blade from a black handled scredriver and put it into my green handle :) That way my screwdrivers would remain color coordinated. Stuart. .ps It was just last year that I got a toolbox that wasn't red... It was a snapon repo for 1/2 the cost of a new one. From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Dec 10 09:48:56 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:48:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: <20071210030245.GA87516@sackheads.org> References: <20071209142220.GA64121@sackheads.org> <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> <20071210030245.GA87516@sackheads.org> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Jimmie Mayfield wrote: > On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 11:46:06AM -0800, Randall wrote: >> WOW ! What a candy store ! Any idea which one you got ? I've already >> found 4 different ones, prices ranging from $5 to $9 and there's another 25 >> pages of LED & battery stuff to go ... > > They do have a lot of stuff, don't they? Most of it is crap but there are > some good values. This looks like the headlamp I have: > > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.479 > > They have some other LED lights that are worth looking at. I have > an older 1-mode Ultrafire C3 that I like a lot. It puts all my incandescent > lights to shame (including both my 6V lanterns). Bang for buck, it's hard > to beat. Looks like it's been updated to include a 5-mode switch: So this is a good time to mention these: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.46 I've got a few of these I picked up at Harbor Freight (and thought they were a good deal at $5/ea on sale, let alone at this price!). They're awesome. Small, so they fit places easily. Rugged. Pretty bright. Price is killer. Every toolbox & car should have one. Mark From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Dec 10 09:55:58 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:55:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] long 0 deg box wrenches Message-ID: Howdy, Also, a while back I asked on the list about chinese versions of the snap on 0 deg offset long pattern box wrenches. Harbor Freight has had the SAE version for a while: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=96212 But they recently added the metric version: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96295 I got them the other day... Had to order, as the retail stores don't carry them. They seem nice enough, feel very similar to the snapon ones I've used, but I haven't used them yet. Just thought I'd mention it. This was definitely something in the "boy I'd like to have that, but I just can't justify the money" category until the chinese copies started getting made... Mark From mikel at ichips.intel.com Mon Dec 10 10:22:44 2007 From: mikel at ichips.intel.com (Mike Lee) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:22:44 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Andy of "Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:48:56 EST." Message-ID: <200712101722.lBAHMipm026594@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com> >So this is a good time to mention these: > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.46 > >I've got a few of these I picked up at Harbor Freight (and thought they >were a good deal at $5/ea on sale, let alone at this price!). > >They're awesome. Small, so they fit places easily. Rugged. Pretty >bright. Price is killer. > >Every toolbox & car should have one. I dunno if the deal is still valid, but Home Depot was selling 3-packs of these flashlights for $5 (or $1.67 each including the batteries!) the weekend after Thanksgiving; I snagged a few sets. They still seem to be still selling some of the other sale stuff at the same price (i.e. the Gorilla ladder) when I was there this weekend, so maybe they still have them? From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Dec 10 10:26:43 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Dealextreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <188578.87374.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for the link to DealExtreme! I ordered a whole bunch of flashlights and other gadgets for stocking stuffers. Hopefully I will still be happy after they arrive... Doug From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Dec 10 10:33:05 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:33:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: <200712101722.lBAHMipm026594@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com> References: <200712101722.lBAHMipm026594@plxc2781.pdx.intel.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mike Lee wrote: >> So this is a good time to mention these: >> >> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.46 >> >> I've got a few of these I picked up at Harbor Freight (and thought they >> were a good deal at $5/ea on sale, let alone at this price!). >> >> They're awesome. Small, so they fit places easily. Rugged. Pretty >> bright. Price is killer. >> >> Every toolbox & car should have one. > > I dunno if the deal is still valid, but Home Depot was selling 3-packs > of these flashlights for $5 (or $1.67 each including the batteries!) the > weekend after Thanksgiving; I snagged a few sets. They still seem to be > still selling some of the other sale stuff at the same price (i.e. the > Gorilla ladder) when I was there this weekend, so maybe they still have > them? Yeah, TP Tools had what sounds to be a similar three pack w/batteries for $7 at their thanksgiving thing. My dad bought a set. They're very similar (and good enough, for the goal), but not quite the same. The metal tube is thinner and the light isn't quite as bright. I don't know if you could tell the difference without them side by side to compare though. It amazes me that selling these things at these prices is profitable for someone. At $5/ea I guess I can see it, but you'd think there'd be $2 of materials/production cost alone in these things, let alone cost of shipping, etc.! Mark From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Dec 10 11:17:21 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:17:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light In-Reply-To: References: <20071210030245.GA87516@sackheads.org> <20071209142220.GA64121@sackheads.org> <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> <20071210030245.GA87516@sackheads.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071210131721.00afbc50@pop.east.cox.net> At 11:48 AM 12/10/2007 -0500, Mark Andy wrote: >> They have some other LED lights that are worth looking at. I have >> an older 1-mode Ultrafire C3 that I like a lot. It puts all my incandescent >> lights to shame (including both my 6V lanterns). Bang for buck, it's hard >> to beat. Looks like it's been updated to include a 5-mode switch: > >So this is a good time to mention these: > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.46 Speaking of neat inexpensive stuff to have, Harbor Freight puts several of their multimeters on sale for less that $5 all the time. The current one is: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90899 I'll pick these up as Xmas gifts. Got one in every car, every tool box, etc. While I prefer Analog meters most of the time, these are great for a lot of checks on the car. Now the kids can check light bulbs, fuses, even their battery and alternator. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org Mon Dec 10 11:20:49 2007 From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:20:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Dealextreme In-Reply-To: <188578.87374.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <188578.87374.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071210182049.GA42575@sackheads.org> On Mon, Dec 10, 2007 at 09:26:43AM -0800, Doug Braun wrote: > Thanks for the link to DealExtreme! I ordered a whole > bunch of flashlights and other gadgets for stocking > stuffers. > > Hopefully I will still be happy after they arrive... You're welcome. I don't want to rain on your holiday but your order might not arrive in time for stuffing stockings. In my experience, their stuff takes a couple weeks to show up. Since today is Dec 10, it'll be close. Jimmie From pethier at comcast.net Mon Dec 10 11:28:05 2007 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:28:05 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names Message-ID: <121020071828.5704.475D8535000BBAD50000164822134843739D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> From: Richard Beels > It reinforces the sense of community we have. We all have shared > knuckle-busting experiences when a socket either rounds off the > fastener or the sidewall snaps. Or having having an HF grinder die 5 > minutes after starting to use it. > > You missed: > Snap Off > Home Despot > Crap-Mart > China-Mart > Milwaucan't Don'f forget J C Whitless. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From mbarre at juno.com Mon Dec 10 18:13:13 2007 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:13:13 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Snake Light - HD 3 fo $5 Message-ID: <20071210.201313.23320.1@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> I picked up one set of the 3 for $5 on Black Friday but they were sold out that day and weren't getting more in. I checked again today and they said it was a one time stocking. I guess if a store didn't sell out of their initial shipment they could still be around but they went quick here in GA. -- Mike Lee wrote: >So this is a good time to mention these: > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.46 > >I've got a few of these I picked up at Harbor Freight (and thought they >were a good deal at $5/ea on sale, let alone at this price!). > >They're awesome. Small, so they fit places easily. Rugged. Pretty >bright. Price is killer. > >Every toolbox & car should have one. I dunno if the deal is still valid, but Home Depot was selling 3-packs of these flashlights for $5 (or $1.67 each including the batteries!) the weekend after Thanksgiving; I snagged a few sets. They still seem to be still selling some of the other sale stuff at the same price (i.e. the Gorilla ladder) when I was there this weekend, so maybe they still have them? You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive _____________________________________________________________ Click here to learn more about nursing jobs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nEvqSL1xVwyZozZLJ1pPEhv5vV cEQmOKm6Cs3Ud4UXtdKRv/ From battmain at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 04:51:01 2007 From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:51:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names Message-ID: <966092.74850.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'll add... Comp Useless (if you haven't already heard, going out of business after the holidays) LinkSh*t (after my experience with their useless first level techs. Told me recently IFITL wasn't compatible with their routers because it was new technology! Most amusing was their explanation of IFITL. I lost my patience after the fifth useless tech, as they kept feeding me a line of BS and kept telling me to reboot the modem. They couldn't figure out why I didn't have a modem. I knew there was a hardware issue with the router and was checking if it was still under warranty. It was and it was replaced.) Horrible freight. (hand tools that broke on the first use without any abuse. I still haven't replaced them since their 'lifetime' warranty is useless if you don't have a receipt.) :rolleyes: Brian battmain at yahoo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Richard Beels To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 3:14:04 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Was Cordless Drill Batteries, now "cute" names (snip) You missed: Snap Off Home Despot Crap-Mart China-Mart Milwaucan't DeWerst My father-in-law just adds "piece of crap" (sic) in front of something he doesn't like. Not very cute that.... :-) (snip) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Dec 11 15:58:23 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:58:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <1493657104-1197068436-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1396510878-@bxe014.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1493657104-1197068436-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1396510878-@bxe014.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <002401c83c49$55532290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > There is no reason you couldn't pick up replacement cells > (online or locally) and rebuild the pack yourself, if you can > afford the time... This has got me wondering about converting the pack (& charger) to Li-ion. Any suggestions on how to safely make permanent connections to the new cells ? Randall From cornerexit at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:01:43 2007 From: cornerexit at gmail.com (cornerexit) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:01:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastening wall sections to tile floor? Message-ID: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> I need to put up three short non-load bearing interior walls in my garage to make an office space for my wife. Nothing fancy, just some walls to provide some privacy and quiet for her office work. I'm considering these to be temporary as we may need to pull them out when we sell the place as I think having a real two car garage is more salable then half a garage with a make-shift room in it. I don't want to use office partitions; I want 2x4 framed, sheet-rocked walls with one door opening. The previous owner of this house was a tile contractor, and thus just about everything that could be covered with tile IS covered with tile, including the mail box post and the garage floor. If I were setting these walls on a typical concrete floor I'd drill holes in the sill plate and shoot those nail anchors in that you use the little .22 caliber anchor gun for (can't remember the proper name, but I have one around here somewhere). Should I try this same method for anchoring the walls to the tile floor? Or maybe drill beyond the tile into the concrete and try to use an extra long anchor if they make such a thing? Is there another method to anchor wall sections to a tile floor? Thanks Wayne From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Dec 11 16:12:39 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:12:39 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line In-Reply-To: <006d01c834ff$424322a0$6e01a8c0@KARL> References: <005301c834ed$3a129910$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com> <006d01c834ff$424322a0$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <003701c83c4b$534a6f60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > That said, I hooked up our refrigerator with polyethylene as > soon as I'd put > it back in place on new oak floors. Two days later I noticed > that the > adjacent concrete floor was damp. The plastic tubing had > cracked at a > fitting and dripped enough to warp the new floor. While I've run RO water through soft copper for going-on 20 years (plus however long it had been there before we bought the house, PO also had an RO system) and never had a leak. When we replaced the reefer last year, the line still looked fine. I did get a few drops the first night, but going another 1/4 turn on the poly side nut fixed it. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Dec 11 16:15:17 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:15:17 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastening wall sections to tile floor? In-Reply-To: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> References: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> Message-ID: <003801c83c4b$b1811660$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Should I try this same method for anchoring the walls to the > tile floor? How much do you care if the tile cracks ? In the house, I would drill the tile; but in the garage I wouldn't care if it cracks, so just shoot the nail. Randall From Paul at Parkanzky.com Tue Dec 11 16:15:53 2007 From: Paul at Parkanzky.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:15:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastening wall sections to tile floor? In-Reply-To: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> References: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> Message-ID: Maybe drill all the way through the tile and then use long tapcons to anchor the sill plate to the concrete below the tile? Even better, make sure that the sills line up with grout-lines and drill through that. Then, when you tear it down you can back the tapcons out and regrout without leaving big holes in your pretty tile garage floor. -Paul On Dec 11, 2007 6:01 PM, cornerexit wrote: > I need to put up three short non-load bearing interior walls in my garage > to > make an office space for my wife. Nothing fancy, just some walls to > provide > some privacy and quiet for her office work. I'm considering these to be > temporary as we may need to pull them out when we sell the place as I > think > having a real two car garage is more salable then half a garage with a > make-shift room in it. I don't want to use office partitions; I want 2x4 > framed, sheet-rocked walls with one door opening. > > > > The previous owner of this house was a tile contractor, and thus just > about > everything that could be covered with tile IS covered with tile, including > the mail box post and the garage floor. If I were setting these walls on a > typical concrete floor I'd drill holes in the sill plate and shoot those > nail anchors in that you use the little .22 caliber anchor gun for (can't > remember the proper name, but I have one around here somewhere). > > > > Should I try this same method for anchoring the walls to the tile floor? > Or > maybe drill beyond the tile into the concrete and try to use an extra long > anchor if they make such a thing? Is there another method to anchor wall > sections to a tile floor? > > > > Thanks > > Wayne > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Tue Dec 11 17:20:49 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:20:49 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastening wall sections to tile floor? In-Reply-To: References: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> Message-ID: <475F2961.1010700@hornesystemstx.com> I'd go with the Tapcons in the grout. Another possibility would be to look into gluing the bottom plate down over grout lines. Use some form of release material, such as plastic tape, then add whatever mastic you like on top of the release material, and under the bottom plate. By working on top of the grout line it should key the wall into place at the bottom. Find ceiling joists at the top and secure the top of the wall into them. Good luck. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Paul Parkanzky: > Maybe drill all the way through the tile and then use long tapcons to anchor > the sill plate to the concrete below the tile? Even better, make sure that > the sills line up with grout-lines and drill through that. Then, when you > tear it down you can back the tapcons out and regrout without leaving big > holes in your pretty tile garage floor. > > -Paul > On Dec 11, 2007 6:01 PM, cornerexit wrote: > > >> I need to put up three short non-load bearing interior walls in my garage >> to >> make an office space for my wife. Nothing fancy, just some walls to >> provide >> some privacy and quiet for her office work. I'm considering these to be >> temporary as we may need to pull them out when we sell the place as I >> think >> having a real two car garage is more salable then half a garage with a >> make-shift room in it. I don't want to use office partitions; I want 2x4 >> framed, sheet-rocked walls with one door opening. >> >> >> >> The previous owner of this house was a tile contractor, and thus just >> about >> everything that could be covered with tile IS covered with tile, including >> the mail box post and the garage floor. If I were setting these walls on a >> typical concrete floor I'd drill holes in the sill plate and shoot those >> nail anchors in that you use the little .22 caliber anchor gun for (can't >> remember the proper name, but I have one around here somewhere). >> >> >> >> Should I try this same method for anchoring the walls to the tile floor? >> Or >> maybe drill beyond the tile into the concrete and try to use an extra long >> anchor if they make such a thing? Is there another method to anchor wall >> sections to a tile floor? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Wayne >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive >> > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Tue Dec 11 17:25:03 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:25:03 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <002401c83c49$55532290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1493657104-1197068436-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1396510878-@bxe014.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <002401c83c49$55532290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <475F2A5F.4010307@hornesystemstx.com> My main concern with converting any tool to a different type of battery is whether the charger for the old battery type will charge the new batteries completely, and not over charge them. I have no idea how close Lithium Ion battery charging specs are to NiCads. My uncle is working with a new (several year old) battery technology that I can't remember the name of. They are used in remote controlled airplanes to power the plane's engine. They are really finicky with their charging. If not charged exactly correctly the batteries explode! Peace, Pat Thusly spake Randall: >> There is no reason you couldn't pick up replacement cells >> (online or locally) and rebuild the pack yourself, if you can >> afford the time... >> > > This has got me wondering about converting the pack (& charger) to Li-ion. > > Any suggestions on how to safely make permanent connections to the new cells > ? > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From eric at megageek.com Tue Dec 11 17:30:32 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:30:32 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap welding supplies In-Reply-To: <475F2961.1010700@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: OK, I can't find anywhere local to buy a 10lbs spool of .035 intersheilded NR -211 MP corded wire electrode for my wire feed. (Every place has 2 or 1 lbs spools.) Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap on-line source? Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From kvacek at ameritech.net Tue Dec 11 17:37:58 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:37:58 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line References: <005301c834ed$3a129910$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com><006d01c834ff$424322a0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <003701c83c4b$534a6f60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <002401c83c57$3ef69d70$6e01a8c0@KARL> Not my theory. Watts (the maker of my current RO system) says that the water is "hungry" and will over time eat away copper lines. http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/webpage.cfm?WebPage_ID=29&DID=15 Why Not Use Copper Tubing For The Line To The Icemaker? Due to R.O. water being very pure, it is what is known as "hungry water." R.O. water can leach the minerals out of the copper tubing and may cause a metallic taste in the ice cubes and over a period of time, the copper tubing can develop pinhole leaks. My current watermaker line is copper too - I abandoned that poly line and went back to the copper line I've used to transmit RO water for 18 years now. But I will change it one day, I guess. Karl > While I've run RO water through soft copper for going-on 20 years (plus > however long it had been there before we bought the house, PO also had an > RO > system) and never had a leak. > > When we replaced the reefer last year, the line still looked fine. I did > get a few drops the first night, but going another 1/4 turn on the poly > side > nut fixed it. > > Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Dec 11 18:32:52 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:32:52 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] fishing water line In-Reply-To: <002401c83c57$3ef69d70$6e01a8c0@KARL> References: <005301c834ed$3a129910$2f01a8c0@na.sjcount.com><006d01c834ff$424322a0$6e01a8c0@KARL> <003701c83c4b$534a6f60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <002401c83c57$3ef69d70$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <004701c83c5e$ea0ad530$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Not my theory. Watts (the maker of my current RO system) > says that the > water is "hungry" and will over time eat away copper lines. My apologies, Karl ... I did not mean to imply otherwise. It's certainly a very common myth, and might even be true in some cases, depending on the exact definition of "over time", "eat away" and "copper lines". But every study I've seen on the subject seems to imply that RO water is no more corrosive to copper than ordinary chlorinated municipal water is likely to be; plus the total flow through the line to my ice maker is very small. I didn't work out how long it might take to penetrate the line if the water absorbed 1 ppm of copper, but it seems like it must be a long, long time. Thus as I frequently do, I chose to ignore the warnings of doom and gloom, and leave the copper in place. So far, it's worked out for me. Maybe someday I'll learn of my mistake the hard way ... OTOH I have tile over concrete in the kitchen, so I'm less worried about a little water spill than you might be with wood. Randall From coles at colesnurseries.com Tue Dec 11 18:55:36 2007 From: coles at colesnurseries.com (Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:55:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building Message-ID: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> We recently built a 50x70 pole barn and want to partition off half for a shop. The ceilings are 16 ft. Does anyone have any advice on insulating it ?? Sides are the metal sheeting. For the partition I thought we'd frame it up with 2x6s. Does anyone have any thoughts on spray insulation vs. other types ?? Thanks, Dan From mark at sccaprepared.com Tue Dec 11 19:08:08 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:08:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap welding supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, eric at megageek.com wrote: > OK, I can't find anywhere local to buy a 10lbs spool of .035 > intersheilded NR -211 MP corded wire electrode for my wire feed. > (Every place has 2 or 1 lbs spools.) > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap on-line source? I usually use http://www.weldingdepot.com/ Mark From eric at megageek.com Tue Dec 11 19:08:00 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:08:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building In-Reply-To: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> Message-ID: I did the spray poly insulation on my building side walls and blown cellulose in the attic space. I could not be happier. It is awesome stuff and the perfect blend! Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos "Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)" Sent by: shop-talk-bounces+eric=megageek.com at autox.team.net 12/11/2007 20:55 To cc Subject [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building We recently built a 50x70 pole barn and want to partition off half for a shop. The ceilings are 16 ft. Does anyone have any advice on insulating it ?? Sides are the metal sheeting. For the partition I thought we'd frame it up with 2x6s. Does anyone have any thoughts on spray insulation vs. other types ?? Thanks, From mark at sccaprepared.com Tue Dec 11 19:12:07 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:12:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap welding supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, Whoops! I mis-remembered... I was actuallying thinking of weldingmart.com... http://www.weldingmart.com/ Its been awhile since I've used them, but with my orders in the past I've been pretty happy. Mark On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, eric at megageek.com wrote: >> OK, I can't find anywhere local to buy a 10lbs spool of .035 intersheilded >> NR -211 MP corded wire electrode for my wire feed. (Every place has 2 or 1 >> lbs spools.) >> >> Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap on-line source? > > I usually use http://www.weldingdepot.com/ > > Mark From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Dec 11 19:21:30 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:21:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Upgrade Batteries In-Reply-To: <002401c83c49$55532290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1493657104-1197068436-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1396510878-@bxe014.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <002401c83c49$55532290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <475F45AA.5000607@xxiii.com> Randall wrote: > This has got me wondering about converting the pack (& charger) to Li-ion. > Any suggestions on how to safely make permanent connections to the new cells That rebuilding place I mentioned the other day discusses it. Supposedly the Li batteries need a completely different charger, but they offer NiCd and NiMh upgrades. http://www.primecell.com/pctools.htm http://www.primecell.com/qterms.htm -Wayne From eltonclark at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 20:20:03 2007 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:20:03 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight tools In-Reply-To: <201961.56172.qm@web82014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201961.56172.qm@web82014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is frustrating isn't it . . I jusr unpacked a 56,000 rpm air die grinder and an air-powered reversible 3/8 drill . . each was $9.99 . . . they're junky but cheap . . 1/10th the price of good stuff .sigh . . . . On 12/10/07, ROBERT LANE wrote: > > I have a little bit of all kinds of tools, craftsman, snap-on, thorson, > and s&k. But most of my tools are Harbor Freight. I know they are cheap, > and I have had some disappointments, but overall I get good useage out of > them. The reasons I buy Harbor Freight are, by bying them on sale & using > coupons I can buy a lot more variety of tools,and I have a lot of > them. Besides that I am cheap. If a power tools go bad, I can throw them > away and by another one. If I had a high dollar power tool and it goes bad, > it would cost me more to repair it than a new Harbor Freight one would cost. > I wish I could afford those name brand stuff, but I can't.. > > This my 2 cents worth. I know that not everyone has the same mind set. I > enjoy this forum and Iearning about other peoples thoughts and Ideas. > CATCH YOU LATER, > ROBO > _______________________________________________ > eltonclark at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk From james.f.juhas at snet.net Tue Dec 11 20:36:51 2007 From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:36:51 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] #!@#*@* Cordless Drill Batteries!!! In-Reply-To: <002401c83c49$55532290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <49667.57038.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1493657104-1197068436-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1396510878-@bxe014.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <002401c83c49$55532290$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <475F5753.7060309@snet.net> I have a 10+year old Craftsman "commercial grade" drill that had the feature of a very heavy duty charger that would charge the battery in less than an hour. With 2 batteries I could work all day with it. The batteries from Sears are more expensive than their current drills with 2 batteries, so I rebuilt one of the packs wih cells from "onlybatteries.com". I upgraded the amp ratings and put in NiMH instead of the NiCD. Works great, and I'm about to buy more to rebuild the second pack. Not all that difficult to do provided you have a heavy enough soldering iron to properly heat and solder the tabs together. This supplier has a variety of batteries available with various tab arrangements, and frequent sale specials. Randall wrote: >>There is no reason you couldn't pick up replacement cells >>(online or locally) and rebuild the pack yourself, if you can >>afford the time... >> >> > >This has got me wondering about converting the pack (& charger) to Li-ion. > >Any suggestions on how to safely make permanent connections to the new cells >? > >Randall >_______________________________________________ From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Dec 11 20:38:44 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:38:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <610603.97474.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Did you do the blown cellulose yourself? How did it go? I am thinking of insulating my garage attic space with that stuff, using the blower that Lowe's or HD will lend you if you buy the insulation from them. Doug --- eric at megageek.com wrote: > I did the spray poly insulation on my building side > walls and blown > cellulose in the attic space. > > I could not be happier. It is awesome stuff and the > perfect blend! From james.f.juhas at snet.net Tue Dec 11 20:46:27 2007 From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (Jim Juhas) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:46:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap welding supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <475F5993.1040302@snet.net> HF used to sell them; worth a look. eric at megageek.com wrote: >OK, I can't find anywhere local to buy a 10lbs spool of .035 intersheilded >NR -211 MP corded wire electrode for my wire feed. (Every place has 2 or >1 lbs spools.) > >Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap on-line source? > >Moose > >"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." > Tori Amos From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 20:48:50 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:48:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap welding supplies In-Reply-To: <475F5993.1040302@snet.net> References: <475F5993.1040302@snet.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712111948l7affe5d5y41151ccf802eeb4c@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2007 10:46 PM, Jim Juhas wrote: > HF used to sell them; worth a look. > > It's worth the money to buy decent welding wire. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From cavanadd at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 20:53:54 2007 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:53:54 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap welding supplies In-Reply-To: <475F5993.1040302@snet.net> References: < Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071211195145.033891d8@incoming.verizon.net> Last time I needed to get a 10 lb spool of .035 flux core I checked with both H.F. and Central Welding, one of the local commercial/industrial welding outfits in town. Central was cheaper. Dave C At 10:46 PM 12/11/2007 -0500, Jim Juhas wrote: >HF used to sell them; worth a look. > >eric at megageek.com wrote: > > >OK, I can't find anywhere local to buy a 10lbs spool of .035 intersheilded > >NR -211 MP corded wire electrode for my wire feed. (Every place has 2 or > >1 lbs spools.) > > > >Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheap on-line source? > > > >Moose > > > >"We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." > > Tori Amos >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive From scott.hall at comcast.net Tue Dec 11 21:04:17 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question Message-ID: <121220070404.7783.475F5DC10000BA1400001E67221353965304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> we're re-doing a bathroom in our new house. the shower requires a supply line larger than the existing supply. the existing supply lines run through the slab. I do not want to chisel up the slab to run new lines. so, can I run supply lines through the attic? how big should I make them? the hot water line needs to be 1" minimum per the shower manufacturer's instructions. this line will also feed a hydronic towel warmer and another bathroom is a few feet away from this one. I was thinking of running a 2"+ line for future needs. the hot water line will need a return to the heater (see hydronic heater, above). I've seen a setup like this in magazines, so I think it can be done. just wondering if I need to consider anything when planning. what should I use for lines? in lowes I saw (plain white) pvc line. they also have "cpvc" line that was gray. I thought the white pvc line was technically "chlorinated pvc" and just the "c" was dropped. they're different? also thought about black iron or copper. cost really isn't that much of a consideration as making sure I can set it up once and not worry about it later. I've worked with everything but black iron before, but if it's the best, I can use it. I'd like to insulate the lines. lowes had the foam sleeves for 3/4" line--are they made larger? do they work? I'd originally thought about encasing the lines in spray foam. lastly--the water pressure is abysmally low. the plumber said to learn to live with it, it's on a well and the tank is too far from the house. seriously, you can't bathe in one bathroom because there's not enough water coming out. I'm willing to install pumps on individual lines to each bathroom, or one whole-house pump, but we've got to get some pressure. seems like I'd like to install individual pumps just before the bathroom fixtures, but I really have no idea. the plumber didn't even want to discuss it and I'm not even sure where to begin searching. anybody ever done this? I'm heading to a plumbing-supply store here if I can make it, but there's not one where I live. I was hoping to sound more informed before I go in there. thanks in advance. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Dec 11 22:33:08 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:33:08 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building In-Reply-To: <610603.97474.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071212053308.KVJH15016.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> > Did you do the blown cellulose yourself? How did it go? I am > thinking of insulating my garage attic space with that stuff, Is there any good reason to believe it's better than what they had 40 years ago ? My attic has some 40 year old cellulose, and it's pretty nasty. Doubt it's doing anything for insulation either, since it appears to be less than 1/4 it's original volume. Randall From rbeels at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 00:49:27 2007 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:49:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building In-Reply-To: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> References: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20071212024718.03a425e0@yahoo.com> The spray on does a great job of sealing the wall as well - zero air infiltration after that. It's more expensive for materials but the labor cost is much cheaper since it's so quick. If you're doing the work yourself, it can be more $. 2x6 will be good for the partition for the extra insulating space but depending on the outside walls, may be unneeded. Would be a more stable wall too, if that matters to you.... At 12/11/2007 at 20:55, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc)'s keyboard and said: > We recently built a 50x70 pole barn and want to partition off half for a >shop. The ceilings are 16 ft. Does anyone have any advice on insulating it >?? Sides are the metal sheeting. For the partition I thought we'd frame it up >with 2x6s. Does anyone have any thoughts on spray insulation vs. other types >?? >Thanks, >Dan Cheers! From kvacek at ameritech.net Wed Dec 12 06:23:28 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:23:28 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building References: <20071212053308.KVJH15016.mta10.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <004701c83cc2$2f2cb440$6e01a8c0@KARL> I'll echo the cellulose observations. I've had it in an enclosed roof space and also as batts semi-exposed above a suspended ceiling. It's fine for a number of years, but as time goes on it breaks down. Pull the batt down and there's just powder. In the enclosed roof space (sheeting and shingles on rafters, and tongue-and-groove redwood on the underside ot the rafters), we developed an unseen leak. We couldn't figure out where carpenter ants were living, till I finally pulled off the entire roof, deck and all. The ants were living in the cellulose insulation, and where they were, much of it was just gone. Interesting side note. Unlike termites, carpenter ants don't eat wood, they just hollow it out and live in it. Did they hollow out the Douglas fir rafters or the fir plywood sheeting? Nope - they made channels in the 3/4" tongue and groove redwood paneling and lived there. I thought redwood was insect-proof.... I removed the cellulose insulation, vacuumed the area thoroughly, put in fiberglass batts, re-decked and re-roofed, and we haven't; seen an ant in 12 years or so. Karl >> Did you do the blown cellulose yourself? How did it go? I am >> thinking of insulating my garage attic space with that stuff, > > Is there any good reason to believe it's better than what they had 40 > years > ago ? My attic has some 40 year old cellulose, and it's pretty nasty. > Doubt it's doing anything for insulation either, since it appears to be > less > than 1/4 it's original volume. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as kvacek at ameritech.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From eric at megageek.com Wed Dec 12 06:52:36 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:52:36 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building Message-ID: I hired a pro to blow the inslulation. The cost was minimal difference if I did it or he did it. So I let a pro do it. Again, I have no regrets on this instation. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos -----Doug Braun wrote: ----- To: eric at megageek.com, Shop-Talk List From: Doug Braun Date: 12/11/2007 22:38 Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building Did you do the blown cellulose yourself? How did it go? I am thinking of insulating my garage attic space with that stuff, using the blower that Lowe's or HD will lend you if you buy the insulation from them. Doug --- eric at megageek.com wrote: > I did the spray poly insulation on my building side > walls and blown > cellulose in the attic space. > > I could not be happier. It is awesome stuff and the > perfect blend! From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Dec 12 08:54:05 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:54:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <121220070404.7783.475F5DC10000BA1400001E67221353965304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <283549.20531.qm@web607.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > how big should I make them? the hot water line > needs to be 1" minimum per the shower manufacturer's > instructions. this line will also feed a hydronic > towel warmer and another bathroom is a few feet away > from this one. I was thinking of running a 2"+ line > for future needs. Is this the "Niagara Falls" model shower? A 1" pipe is much larger than is normally used for pipes leading to a bathroom. A 2" pipe is larger than almost any house would have coming in from the street. > > the hot water line will need a return to the heater > (see hydronic heater, above). I've seen a setup > like this in magazines, so I think it can be done. > just wondering if I need to consider anything when > planning. Is it really worth adding all the extra piping just to heat your towels? We have an electric towel warmer. It works fine and you simply have to plug it in to an outlet. > > lastly--the water pressure is abysmally low. the > plumber said to learn to live with it, it's on a > well and the tank is too far from the house. > seriously, you can't bathe in one bathroom because > there's not enough water coming out. If this is the case, the Niagara Falls shower will not work very well... I'm willing to > install pumps on individual lines to each bathroom, > or one whole-house pump, but we've got to get some > pressure. seems like I'd like to install individual > pumps just before the bathroom fixtures, but I > really have no idea. the plumber didn't even want > to discuss it and I'm not even sure where to begin > searching. anybody ever done this? You could probably install a pump and pressurized reservoir where the pipe from the well enters the house. The situation you describe, a low-flow well, is probably quite common. I'm surprised the plumber did not suggest it. Doug From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Dec 12 09:05:20 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:05:20 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question Message-ID: <121220071605.28741.476006C0000A4B9700007045220702065304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Doug Braun > Is this the "Niagara Falls" model shower? A 1" pipe > is much larger than is normally used for pipes leading > to a bathroom. A 2" pipe is larger than almost any > house would have coming in from the street. it's got a total of six shower 'heads' with one box controlling all of them. pretty snazzy if you can feed the thing. I figure 2" is overkill, but if I can only do this once I'll do it. I'm sure once I hear ideas for the master bath I'll be wishing I'd run 3" pipe. > Is it really worth adding all the extra piping just to > heat your towels? We have an electric towel warmer. > It works fine and you simply have to plug it in to an > outlet. the electric model would have needed wiring run to it, it was right next to the shower (even if it is gfci-protected, I still would prefer no electricity there) and had a big red-illuminated box for the power supply. this is a pool bath that will see a lot of 8 year-old traffic. I thought it would be an attractive nuisance. a hot-water-heated wall of pipes seemed like the lesser of two evils. > If this is the case, the Niagara Falls shower will > not work very well... exactly. > You could probably install a pump and pressurized > reservoir where the pipe from the well enters the > house. The situation you describe, a low-flow well, > is probably quite common. I'm surprised the plumber > did not suggest it. well, the well has a tank into which it pumps, and that tank is pressurized. the problem is that tank is 50 feet from the house and giving its all as it is (sayeth the plumber). I asked about another tank in the house, closer to the fixtures, a pump, etc. his advice was to live with it. then he gave me a bill for $100 for being there for 15 minutes. time to research on my own. From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Dec 12 09:26:47 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:26:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <121220071605.28741.476006C0000A4B9700007045220702065304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7703.24041.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If the water supply to the house is so restricted, the high-flow shower probably can't work very well. It just won't get enough water. Fifty feet from the well to the house does not sound all that far. That sounds like a typical distance from the street to the house for somebody with city water. Maybe: 1: The pipe from the well is corroded or clogged. it could be replaced. 2: The well pump is not working properly. It could also be replaced. 3: The well simply cannot supply much water. That could get expensive to fix! (But I have no experience with owning a well...) Definitely you should get a second opinion, hopefully from somebody with more of a "can do" attitude than the last guy... Doug From arvidj at visi.com Wed Dec 12 10:38:45 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:45 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building References: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> <6.2.5.6.2.20071212024718.03a425e0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501c83ce5$d89af370$ef281aac@behavioral.com> > The spray on does a great job of sealing the wall as well - zero air > infiltration after that. It's more expensive for materials but the > labor cost is much cheaper since it's so quick. So what are the recommended sources for the materials so I can do it myself? I'd like to insulate my garage and want to spend as little time doing it as possible yet getting as large an R-factor as possible. Yes, I want it all, Arvid From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:20:50 2007 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:20:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <7703.24041.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <121220071605.28741.476006C0000A4B9700007045220702065304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <7703.24041.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree. To me, low water pressure would be too big of a quality of life issue to ignore. I would be upset every morning in the shower until it was fixed. And because of that, I'd be willing to spend quite a bit of money to fix it. He probably didn't put much importance on high water pressure himself, so he would consider the fix to be cost-prohibitive, whereas to you or me it might be worth every penny. -Paul On Dec 12, 2007 11:26 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > If the water supply to the house is so restricted, the > high-flow shower probably can't work very well. It > just won't get enough water. > > Fifty feet from the well to the house does not sound > all that far. That sounds like a typical distance > from the street to the house for somebody with city > water. > > Maybe: > > 1: The pipe from the well is corroded or clogged. it > could be replaced. > > 2: The well pump is not working properly. It could > also be replaced. > > 3: The well simply cannot supply much water. That > could get expensive to fix! (But I have no experience > with owning a well...) > > Definitely you should get a second opinion, hopefully > from somebody with more of a "can do" attitude than > the last guy... > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:27:52 2007 From: carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com (Carl Lindahl) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:27:52 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: References: <121220071605.28741.476006C0000A4B9700007045220702065304040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <7703.24041.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Where I live I have been looking at new construction in the city. Even the largest house I looked at only had a 3/4" water connection coming from the city, this house was over 10,000 sqFT with I believe 7 bathrooms total, and a master bedroom / bathroom that was definatly overkill. I would agree with the opinion that you need to fix the pressure first, before addressing anything else. You can easily insulate 1" or greater piping, and if you step up from the stuff at Home Depot / Lowes to more industrial steam and chilled water insulation, you can keep ALOT of the heat in the pipe. If you choose PVC as the material to use do not use just PVC, choose CPVC because they are indeed different, and at temperature / pressure, I believe CPVC is rated for hot (er) water. On 12/12/07, Paul Parkanzky wrote: > > I agree. To me, low water pressure would be too big of a quality of life > issue to ignore. I would be upset every morning in the shower until it > was > fixed. And because of that, I'd be willing to spend quite a bit of money > to > fix it. He probably didn't put much importance on high water pressure > himself, so he would consider the fix to be cost-prohibitive, whereas to > you > or me it might be worth every penny. > > -Paul > > On Dec 12, 2007 11:26 AM, Doug Braun wrote: > > > If the water supply to the house is so restricted, the > > high-flow shower probably can't work very well. It > > just won't get enough water. > > > > Fifty feet from the well to the house does not sound > > all that far. That sounds like a typical distance > > from the street to the house for somebody with city > > water. > > > > Maybe: > > > > 1: The pipe from the well is corroded or clogged. it > > could be replaced. > > > > 2: The well pump is not working properly. It could > > also be replaced. > > > > 3: The well simply cannot supply much water. That > > could get expensive to fix! (But I have no experience > > with owning a well...) > > > > Definitely you should get a second opinion, hopefully > > from somebody with more of a "can do" attitude than > > the last guy... > > > > Doug > > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com > > > > Shop-talk mailing list > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > > http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as carl.r.lindahl at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:46:32 2007 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:46:32 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building In-Reply-To: <007501c83ce5$d89af370$ef281aac@behavioral.com> References: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> <6.2.5.6.2.20071212024718.03a425e0@yahoo.com> <007501c83ce5$d89af370$ef281aac@behavioral.com> Message-ID: *Good ol' "Google mail" puts relevant ads in the margin of ones mail; in YOUR margin appeared an ad from a DIY foam insulation provider: * ** http://www.foaminsulation.net/index.html On Dec 12, 2007 11:38 AM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > > The spray on does a great job of sealing the wall as well - zero air > > infiltration after that. It's more expensive for materials but the > > labor cost is much cheaper since it's so quick. > > So what are the recommended sources for the materials so I can do it > myself? I'd like to insulate my garage and want to spend as > little time doing it as possible yet getting as large an R-factor as > possible. > > Yes, I want it all, > Arvid > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From mark at sccaprepared.com Wed Dec 12 13:52:15 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:52:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking Message-ID: Howdy, Ok, since this came up and its been bugging me in our own house... Can anyone out there point me towards resources related to getting sufficient water pressure in a house from a well? Our well seems to have plenty of water... We've never run it dry or anything like that. Our issue seems to be pressure and/or volume of water. If you're taking a shower in our normal bathroom, any other water usage in the house turns the water cold (even if the other water usage is cold water). Water pressure in general isn't very good (typically hotel showers now feel like I'm getting blasted with a firehose... Which I like... This is just to illustrate our perceived water pressure in the shower). The well is _right_ next to the house and has an in-well 220vac pump. There's a pressure guage on the inlet into the basement from the well, but I couldn't tell you what the kick on and kick off pressures are... The house has had at least one major addition that included a bathroom & laundry room. In the basement, there are 1/2" water pipes going all over the place. I wouldn't say that there's any particular design evident. Also, pretty much every valve is a good old (heh.) gate style valve and they all seem to leak like crazy if you have the audacity to close & open them or otherwise disturb them. Because of this, I'm a bit hesitant to just crank up the pressure switch on/off points for the pump. Our system does include a two or three foot tank that I assume is some kinda pressure tank. I have no idea if it works as designed at this point. We also have a particulate filter, then a rust filter, then a water softener setup (our water sucks... lots of iron & sometimes has a sulfer smell). We've heard that it may be possible to re-drill the well deeper to get to cleaner water, but haven't researched that at all... The well head is _right_ next to the house (in a corner formed by the house walls, about 3' away from each) on the backside as well... I've got no clue what's required in terms of clearance for well drilling equipment. So... Any advice, after that admittedly poor description? :-) In paticular I'd like to know if there are any rules of thumb for water pressure in normal home water lines and any "make sure you don't do this" guidelines to allowing a shower to be unaffected by other house water usage. Thanks! Mark From ericm at lne.com Wed Dec 12 14:01:03 2007 From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:01:03 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071212210103.GF31739@slack.lne.com> Hi Mark. The pressure tanks have air in the top to provide the pressure. On ones that don't have a diaphram, the air bubble slowly is absorbed into the water and disappears. So you need to let more air into it every so often. I don't know which valves to turn to let air in, we have a gravity system. If you have the diaphram kind, the diaphram can leak and cause the same problem. You shouldn't be getting pressure directly from the pump, its only supposed to fill the tank not pressurize the system. Eric From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Dec 12 14:05:08 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:05:08 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question Message-ID: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> I know our rental was only 1/2" from the street. nonetheless, the fixture requires 1" in, so I thought I'd go overkill now so I don't have to later (I suspect the plans for the master bath include something like the bathroom I'm doing now, only bigger/more). I basically need to figure out how to get the pressure up after the well tank, and what material I should use for the pipes. they're going through the attic no matter what, since I'm not going to crack up the slab. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Carl Lindahl" > Where I live I have been looking at new construction in the city. Even the > largest house I looked at only had a 3/4" water connection coming from the > city, this house was over 10,000 sqFT with I believe 7 bathrooms total, and > a master bedroom / bathroom that was definatly overkill. > > I would agree with the opinion that you need to fix the pressure first, > before addressing anything else. You can easily insulate 1" or greater > piping, and if you step up from the stuff at Home Depot / Lowes to more > industrial steam and chilled water insulation, you can keep ALOT of the heat > in the pipe. > > If you choose PVC as the material to use do not use just PVC, choose CPVC > because they are indeed different, and at temperature / pressure, I believe > CPVC is rated for hot (er) water. From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:07:05 2007 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:07:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: <20071212210103.GF31739@slack.lne.com> References: <20071212210103.GF31739@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Not exactly. The pump is where the pressure comes from to pressurize that tank. The idea is that without the tank the pump has to run all the time to provide pressure, even for light usage. Instead, you pressurize the tank to 70 PSI, then allow it to drop down to 60 PSI, then pump it back up again. But you're making that pressure with the well pump. It's a lot like the tank on your air compressor. Without a tank your compressor has to run anytime you want any air. Instead, the compressor pumps the tank up to 125 PSI or whatever and you can use air until it gets down to some set point and fills it back up again. The other advantage to this is that you get steady pressure and not surges. The water tank needs a bladder of air to be pressurized because the water is basically not compressible. -Paul On Dec 12, 2007 4:01 PM, wrote: > Hi Mark. > > The pressure tanks have air in the top to provide the pressure. > On ones that don't have a diaphram, the air bubble slowly is > absorbed into the water and disappears. So you need to let more > air into it every so often. > > I don't know which valves to turn to let air in, we have a gravity system. > > If you have the diaphram kind, the diaphram can leak and cause > the same problem. > > > You shouldn't be getting pressure directly from the pump, its > only supposed to fill the tank not pressurize the system. > > Eric > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Dec 12 14:10:57 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:10:57 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013001c83d03$7d0e1410$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > The well is _right_ next to the house and has an in-well 220vac pump. > There's a pressure guage on the inlet into the basement from > the well, but > I couldn't tell you what the kick on and kick off pressures are... Well (pun intended), that's certainly the place to start. Many well systems are designed for lower pressure than one normally sees with municipal systems, so your low pressure may be normal. It's also worthwhile having a look at what the pressure and pump do under load. There are different designs, but typical is a pressure tank near the pump that is supposed to be partially filled with air, to act as an accumulator and supply water for a short time so the pump doesn't have to always run when you just run a glass of water or whatever. The air occasionally has to be replenished, even if your tank is a newer design with a rubber bladder. > The house has had at least one major addition that included a > bathroom & > laundry room. In the basement, there are 1/2" water pipes IMO 1/2" is inadequate for your current load ... marginal for the way the house was built. One change that would likely make a big difference with relatively little effort is to run a new line from the pressure tank to the hot water heater. That way, at least drawing more cold water won't kill the hot water. > Also, pretty much every valve is a good old (heh.) gate style > valve and > they all seem to leak like crazy if you have the audacity to > close & open Need to tighten, or possibly replace the packing, then. Not hard at all, but it's best to have the water off while you do it. > We also have a particulate filter, then a rust filter, then a water > softener setup Are they located near the pump ? Restriction through the filters or softener bed may be the problem. Was any of it evaluated when the bathroom & utility room were added ? Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Dec 12 14:19:56 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:19:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <127533.55593.qm@web602.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I once measured the pressure at my house: It was 50 PSI. flushing a toilet dropped it only a couple of pounds. I have no problem with flow at showers, etc. My old house had almost 90 pounds, which was almost too much. Get one of those guages that screws to a hose bib, and measure your pressure, with and without showers, etc. running. I have city water, BTW. But my parents have a well with an electric pump, and their showers and sinks seem to work just as well as ours. Doug From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Dec 12 14:21:00 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <889987.43926.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > I basically need to figure out how to get the > pressure up after the well tank, and what material I > should use for the pipes. they're going through the > attic no matter what, since I'm not going to crack > up the slab. > Any risk of freezing? Doug From rs1121 at earthlink.net Wed Dec 12 14:20:59 2007 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:20:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00be01c83d04$e7a84fb0$b6f8ef10$@net> 50 feet is not enough distance to cause pressure loss - unless you have like a 1/4 inch water line going to the house, something else is wrong. Is it a submersible pump? And if not, how deep is the water level in the well? Sounds like you got zip for the $100 you paid for expertise. Worst case if you have a low flow well, you may have to buy a holding tank, so you will have stored water available for High flow usage, which is not an uncommon issue. From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Dec 12 14:26:59 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:26:59 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question Message-ID: <121220072126.10702.47605223000A2551000029CE220076370404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> none whatsoever. may get below 32F for a few hours a few days a year, but doubtful ever in an enclosed space, and I'm going to insulate the pipes anyway. put another way, all these well tanks we're talking about are outside and the pipes to and from them are exposed. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Doug Braun > Any risk of freezing? From scott.hall at comcast.net Wed Dec 12 14:28:44 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:28:44 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking Message-ID: <121220072128.12641.4760528C0009748C00003161220076370404040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> well, we'd like to move the tank inside by the hvac anyway, just because eventually the tanks do rust and require replacement, and it's kinda an eyesore. also, in the summer the tanks exposed to full sun tend to heat the water pretty good. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Ron Schmittou" > 50 feet is not enough distance to cause pressure loss - unless you have like > a 1/4 inch water line going to the house, something else is wrong. Is it a > submersible pump? And if not, how deep is the water level in the well? > > Sounds like you got zip for the $100 you paid for expertise. > > Worst case if you have a low flow well, you may have to buy a holding tank, > so you will have stored water available for High flow usage, which is not an > uncommon issue. From james.f.juhas at snet.net Wed Dec 12 14:52:50 2007 From: james.f.juhas at snet.net (James F Juhas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:52:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Fastening wall sections to tile floor? In-Reply-To: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> References: <1da201c83c49$cda98fe0$0601a8c0@Waynehouseputer> Message-ID: <47605832.1060106@snet.net> Wayne: For a non-load-bearing wall, simple partition, you won't need much to hold it in place. I would drill through the tile to prevent cracking, then drill further in to the concrete to put a lead anchor. I have done this on concrete floors to make semi-permanent partitions that can be readily removed when necessary (but are still in place some 15 years later.) The length of the anchor itself isn't an issue. It can be the usual length that is flush with the top of the concrete, not the tile, and so a longer lag bolt is used to hold down the 2x4. On an 8 foot span, 2 anchors have been enough to keep it securely in place. Top is screwed to the joists. Jim cornerexit wrote: > I need to put up three short non-load bearing interior walls in my garage to > make an office space for my wife. Nothing fancy, just some walls to provide > some privacy and quiet for her office work. I'm considering these to be > temporary as we may need to pull them out when we sell the place as I think > having a real two car garage is more salable then half a garage with a > make-shift room in it. I don't want to use office partitions; I want 2x4 > framed, sheet-rocked walls with one door opening. From arvidj at visi.com Wed Dec 12 15:35:35 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:35:35 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building References: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> <6.2.5.6.2.20071212024718.03a425e0@yahoo.com> <007501c83ce5$d89af370$ef281aac@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <00c201c83d0f$502b5500$ef281aac@behavioral.com> Google Mail seems to be pretty smart. What does it have to say about "next weeks winning lottery numbers"? ----- Original Message ----- From: Elton E. (Tony) Clark To: Arvid Jedlicka Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net ; Richard Beels Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building Good ol' "Google mail" puts relevant ads in the margin of ones mail; in YOUR margin appeared an ad from a DIY foam insulation provider: http://www.foaminsulation.net/index.html From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:42:30 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:42:30 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] insulating a pole building In-Reply-To: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> References: <004101c83c62$17187700$0201000a@Fest> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712121442w2c2af848icebc7834d4fa9b38@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2007 8:55 PM, Dan and Jenny Fest (Coles Nurseries Inc) wrote: > We recently built a 50x70 pole barn and want to partition off half for a > shop. The ceilings are 16 ft. Does anyone have any advice on insulating it > ?? Sides are the metal sheeting. For the partition I thought we'd frame it up > with 2x6s. Does anyone have any thoughts on spray insulation vs. other types > ?? Don't forget to put a door from the two halves. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From mlye at risd.edu Wed Dec 12 16:21:47 2007 From: mlye at risd.edu (Michael Lye) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:21:47 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: <00be01c83d04$e7a84fb0$b6f8ef10$@net> References: <00be01c83d04$e7a84fb0$b6f8ef10$@net> Message-ID: <611CDCD0-08E1-42C2-A4E2-A70804EFCA79@risd.edu> If the fixtures you're planning on for the bathroom need 1" pipe you should look at what volume of water (both total gallons and gallons/ minute) they will require for both typical and longer duration use. Then have your well tested for it's flow and reserve volume. If your fixtures are exceeding what your well can produce (in gpm) you might be okay with a large enough pressure tank and reserve in the well itself, but if you're using almost all the water in the tank and the well (or running them dry) you'll be causing yourself lot's of problems for the future. It's not just about the pressure - you can pressurize the water you have to whatever level you need easily enough - but if your well can't produce enough water to keep up with the intended use, you'd need a new well. In our area, the NE, that could be in the thousands ($) or more! My situation might be a useful example. When I moved in I had the well tested. It's a 6" well that's about 450 feet deep and produces 1.5 gallons per minute or so (at least in the spring). So I have about 88 cubic feet or 650 gallons in the well plus a 75 gallon (can't really remember but something like this) pressure tank - say roughly 700 gallons reserve. If my shower used 2.5 gpm I would go through that reserve in about 700 minutes and my well would run dry. But that's assuming I use no other water, which in most homes is unlikely though so is a 12 hour shower - so that's fine for me. But putting in a fancy five-head shower might possibly use 10 gpm or more (some use lot's of water!) in which case I'd be stressing the well after an hour and 20 minute shower (one fancy Kohler shower head I looked at uses 10 gpm at 80 psi all by itself. add four other body showers using 2 gpm and you're up to 18 gpm!). Again not a big deal unless I've already washed the car or watered the lawn (5-10 gpm while the hose is on) or done laundry, in which case it could be relatively easy to run the well dry, especially if in the late summer the well doesn't produce as much water due to the weather (I don't really know how variable mine is but I'm assuming it might be an issue). Do that and you might need a new well pump. Do it a lot and you might need a new well. My well is considered marginal) for a 3 bedroom house in my area (though the rate is only from memory now). The company that checked my well had an ultrasonic tester that could measure the water level in the well as it was used up and then as it refilled. When the output dropped the well was considered empty. They could then figure how quickly it refilled hence the output of the well. If I were you I'd have the well checked by someone with appropriate equipment to tell you the flow and volume of it before installing that shower. Sorry for the length, Michael On Dec 12, 2007, at 4:05 PM, scott.hall at comcast.net wrote: > I know our rental was only 1/2" from the street. nonetheless, the > fixture requires 1" in, so I thought I'd go overkill now so I don't > have to later (I suspect the plans for the master bath include > something like the bathroom I'm doing now, only bigger/more). On Dec 12, 2007, at 4:20 PM, Ron Schmittou wrote: > Worst case if you have a low flow well, you may have to buy a > holding tank, > so you will have stored water available for High flow usage, which > is not an > uncommon issue. From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Wed Dec 12 16:42:53 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:42:53 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: <20071212210103.GF31739@slack.lne.com> References: <20071212210103.GF31739@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <476071FD.9060501@hornesystemstx.com> Pressure tanks that are out of air (either a hole in the diaphragm or all the air dissolved into the water) usually cause the pump to cycle on and off rapidly, at least that is how my pond irrigation pump acts when the diaphragm ruptured. This does not sound to me like it is the problem. One way to find out is to turn off the pump and fill the bath tub and see how much water you get out before the water shuts off. That will be the capacity of the tank. The tank should have some markings on it to say what its capacity is. The capacity of my tank is about half of what you would expect that size tank to hold due to the air. Peace, Pat Thusly spake ericm at lne.com: > Hi Mark. > > The pressure tanks have air in the top to provide the pressure. > On ones that don't have a diaphram, the air bubble slowly is > absorbed into the water and disappears. So you need to let more > air into it every so often. > > I don't know which valves to turn to let air in, we have a gravity system. > > If you have the diaphram kind, the diaphram can leak and cause > the same problem. > > > You shouldn't be getting pressure directly from the pump, its > only supposed to fill the tank not pressurize the system. > > Eric > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Wed Dec 12 17:56:11 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:56:11 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> References: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4760832B.5040802@hornesystemstx.com> I thought I had low water pressure also. We live out in the country and are on a private water system. We are also located near the end of the lines. When doing some plumbing work I needed to leak test the copper I had just soldered. I capped off all the openings and used a pressure gauge on one pipe. To my surprise the pressure was about 75 psi! I turned on a nearby faucet and the pressure dropped to 30 psi. It turns out that the previous owner used 3/4" pipe to connect the house to the meter, a distance of 700'. I have plans to replace that pipe with 1-1/4" pipe when I get time, but for now I just live with the low pressure at the house. If the well pump capacity (rate) is not enough to supply your new shower, you will either have to upgrade the pump or put in enough storage capacity to supply enough water for however long you think you will be using the shower. I'd probably start with that before I go to the expense of putting in a high dollar shower that probably won't work well with your existing water supply. I made the mistake in my renovation of going with 1" lines because of the "low" water pressure. IT is fine for the cold water, but the hot water takes forever to get to the sink, 40' away. I added a demand water heater at the sink to take care of that problem. Instead of running a return line to the water heater, consider using a small pump, a check valve and a thermostatic or time switch. Plumb the towel warmer to the hot line, with the outlet fitting going into the pump intake. From the outlet of the pump to the inlet of the check valve. Finally from the check valve outlet to the cold water line. Since the water pressure in the hot and cold pipes will be almost the same, the pump won't have to push much pressure. Set up the controller (temperature or time switch) to control when the towel warmer will be in operation. I suspect that you won't notice that the cold water is warmer than usual when taking a shower, which is probably when the towel warmer is needed. I would stay away from plastic pipe for water lines. Yes, it is done and it meets code, but the only time I've seen it is in apartment houses or low end condos. Houses generally use copper. I would contact another plumber, one that is recommended to you by a plumbing supply house or friend who knows that this plumber has done similar work in the past. Ask for references, then follow up on the references. You should be able to find someone who can give you the straight answers in your area. Peace, Pat Thusly spake scott.hall at comcast.net: > I know our rental was only 1/2" from the street. nonetheless, the > fixture requires 1" in, so I thought I'd go overkill now so I don't > have to later (I suspect the plans for the master bath include > something like the bathroom I'm doing now, only bigger/more). > I basically need to figure out how to get the pressure up after the > well tank, and what material I should use for the pipes. they're > going through the attic no matter what, since I'm not going to crack > up the slab. > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From strovato at optonline.net Wed Dec 12 18:07:27 2007 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <4760832B.5040802@hornesystemstx.com> References: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <4760832B.5040802@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <0JSY00E6ZR4SET60@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Around here (New York) Pex is really becoming a lot more popular, and not just in low end applications. Here's an interesting article: http://www.phcnews.com/march_07/pex.php It includes the statement: In North America, copper retains a market edge, but is quickly losing ground to PEX, especially in residential construction. Copper still dominates over PEX, especially in larger diameters used for commercial construction. At 07:56 PM 12/12/2007, Pat Horne wrote: >I would stay away from plastic pipe for water lines. Yes, it is done and >it meets code, but the only time I've seen it is in apartment houses or >low end condos. Houses generally use copper. From parkanzky at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 18:15:25 2007 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:15:25 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <0JSY00E6ZR4SET60@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <4760832B.5040802@hornesystemstx.com> <0JSY00E6ZR4SET60@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Our new home in Michigan has Pex water lines. The only concern I read when I researched it was that it should be kept out of the sun. Otherwise it is easy to run, makes good joints, etc. -Paul On 12/12/07, Steven Trovato wrote: > Around here (New York) Pex is really becoming a lot more popular, and > not just in low end applications. Here's an interesting > article: http://www.phcnews.com/march_07/pex.php > It includes the statement: > In North America, copper retains a market edge, but is quickly losing > ground to PEX, especially in residential construction. Copper still > dominates over PEX, especially in larger diameters used for > commercial construction. > > > At 07:56 PM 12/12/2007, Pat Horne wrote: > >I would stay away from plastic pipe for water lines. Yes, it is done and > >it meets code, but the only time I've seen it is in apartment houses or > >low end condos. Houses generally use copper. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Wed Dec 12 18:25:05 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:25:05 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> References: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <476089F1.1030205@hornesystemstx.com> I thought I had low water pressure also. We live out in the country and are on a private water system. We are also located near the end of the lines. When doing some plumbing work I needed to leak test the copper I had just soldered. I capped off all the openings and used a pressure gauge on one pipe. To my surprise the pressure was about 75 psi! I turned on a nearby faucet and the pressure dropped to 30 psi. It turns out that the previous owner used 3/4" pipe to connect the house to the meter, a distance of 700'. I have plans to replace that pipe with 1-1/4" pipe when I get time, but for now I just live with the low pressure at the house. If the well pump capacity (rate) is not enough to supply your new shower, you will either have to upgrade the pump or put in enough storage capacity to supply enough water for however long you think you will be using the shower. I'd probably start with that before I go to the expense of putting in a high dollar shower that probably won't work well with your existing water supply. I made the mistake in my renovation of going with 1" lines because of the "low" water pressure. IT is fine for the cold water, but the hot water takes forever to get to the sink, 40' away. I added a demand water heater at the sink to take care of that problem. Instead of running a return line to the water heater, consider using a small pump, a check valve and a thermostatic or time switch. Plumb the towel warmer to the hot line, with the outlet fitting going into the pump intake. From the outlet of the pump to the inlet of the check valve. Finally from the check valve outlet to the cold water line. Since the water pressure in the hot and cold pipes will be almost the same, the pump won't have to push much pressure. Set up the controller (temperature or time switch) to control when the towel warmer will be in operation. I suspect that you won't notice that the cold water is warmer than usual when taking a shower, which is probably when the towel warmer is needed. I would stay away from plastic pipe for water lines. Yes, it is done and it meets code, but the only time I've seen it is in apartment houses or low end condos. Houses generally use copper. I would contact another plumber, one that is recommended to you by a plumbing supply house or friend who knows that this plumber has done similar work in the past. Ask for references, then follow up on the references. You should be able to find someone who can give you the straight answers in your area. Peace, Pat Thusly spake scott.hall at comcast.net: > I know our rental was only 1/2" from the street. nonetheless, the > fixture requires 1" in, so I thought I'd go overkill now so I don't > have to later (I suspect the plans for the master bath include > something like the bathroom I'm doing now, only bigger/more). > I basically need to figure out how to get the pressure up after the > well tank, and what material I should use for the pipes. they're > going through the attic no matter what, since I'm not going to crack > up the slab. > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From chad at linuxeg.com Wed Dec 12 20:32:31 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:32:31 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good Message-ID: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> Anyone have experence with this penetrating oil? thanks, chad http://www.usalubrications.com/gibbs.html From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com Wed Dec 12 20:51:23 2007 From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:51:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. Message-ID: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> I have a well. It puts out about 1.6 gallons per minute. For code purposes (and common sense) I have a large (2500 gallon) storage tank. The well fills the storage tank, based on level sensors in the tank. From the tank there is a large booster pump that feeds a pressure tank; as explained very well in an earlier post the pressure tank is there to keep the booster pump from running constantly with any water use. The size of the booster tank is rather immaterial to the overall flow rate, just to the cycling of the booster pump. The booster pump is huge, as we have fire sprinklers in the house (code required) that must have a 30GPM supply. It's 2 or 3 HP. From the pressure tank I have 2" PVC pipe buried to the house, where it splits off to the sprinklers and then 3/4" throughout the house. Pressure is constant and wonderful. You can't tell if anyone else is using water when in the shower. It sounds like you will need to have a tank and booster pump if you want enough flow to drive your ultra shower. If you say you don't have enough flow to fill a tub then it sounds like the well pump is straining to meet even minimum flows. One thing to try: open a spigot right at the well and see what your water flow rate is (time the fill into a tub or bucket of known size). Let it run long enough so you can see what the long term flow is. Have fun. Mark Miller. From bk13 at earthlink.net Wed Dec 12 22:18:00 2007 From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:18:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Good shower head for low pressure In-Reply-To: <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> References: <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <4760C088.1090500@earthlink.net> Regarding the e-mails about showers and low water pressure - Here is something some of you might find useful: I was renting a place with bad water pressure for a while and discovered the "Incredible Head" shower head. A quick search shows http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000UNU9US/ as an example, but they used to be available in many locations. They don't wear out, so I have not looked in years. The one I use every day I got in 1990. Every 5 years or so I soak it in vinegar for a few minutes and it looks like new again. You can also take it apart if you have junk in your pipes. This is one of the best $5 I've spent. I was on a two week business trip and stuck in a hotel with bad water pressure, so got a second one without the flow control ($2.95 at a local hardware store) that I traveled with. It is smaller than a 35mm film canister and provides a nice shower regardless of water pressure if the hotel shower head sucks. See the sample at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HE6PIA/ As an added bonus, it saves water too. Brian From gsteve at hammatt.com Wed Dec 12 22:23:01 2007 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:23:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Good shower head for low pressure References: <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> <4760C088.1090500@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000601c83d48$3b134f40$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt> Brian That looks exactly like one I bought years ago at the Seattle Boat Show. It's on our downstairs shower, which no longer get used very much, but I agree, it's a great shower head using little volume. Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kemp" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:18 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Good shower head for low pressure | Regarding the e-mails about showers and low water pressure - Here is | something some of you might find useful: | | I was renting a place with bad water pressure for a while and discovered | the "Incredible Head" shower head. A quick search shows | http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000UNU9US/ as an example, but they used to | be available in many locations. They don't wear out, so I have not | looked in years. The one I use every day I got in 1990. Every 5 years | or so I soak it in vinegar for a few minutes and it looks like new | again. You can also take it apart if you have junk in your pipes. This | is one of the best $5 I've spent. | | I was on a two week business trip and stuck in a hotel with bad water | pressure, so got a second one without the flow control ($2.95 at a local | hardware store) that I traveled with. It is smaller than a 35mm film | canister and provides a nice shower regardless of water pressure if the | hotel shower head sucks. See the sample at | http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HE6PIA/ | | As an added bonus, it saves water too. | | Brian | _______________________________________________ snip From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Dec 12 23:08:43 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:08:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Good shower head for low pressure In-Reply-To: <4760C088.1090500@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20071213060843.FCAN27963.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> > I was renting a place with bad water pressure for a while and > discovered the "Incredible Head" shower head. A quick search > shows http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000UNU9US/ as an example, > but they used to be available in many locations. Looks identical to the one I have in the master shower. I didn't get it for low water pressure, but because I like a strong needle spray and that head delivers. If you don't like a needle spray, turn down the main water valve and it's a nice low-flow rain. Now that I think about it, it may have come with a flow restrictor, which I threw away. As someone noted, it does have to be cleaned occasionally. I get little rocks of calcium/lime that get caught in the holes & upset the spray pattern. But it's trivial to unscrew the head & clean out the holes in the little flat disc. Just don't drop it in the drain Randall From eltonclark at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 23:24:35 2007 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:24:35 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: *Donno about Gibbs but some magazine recently ran a test of all available penetrants including "Kroil and "Blaster" . . Kroil was best but ALL were beaten by the homemade combination of 50-50 acetone and ATF. I mixed up a batch for all my buddies and we are happy with it but it WILL savage paint.* On Dec 12, 2007 9:32 PM, Chadwick E. Labno wrote: > Anyone have experence with this penetrating oil? > thanks, > chad From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 13 03:58:01 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:58:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking References: <20071212210103.GF31739@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <002c01c83d77$080c8560$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> The valve to let air into the tank is the Schrader valve on the top of the tank. With the tanks that do not have a diaphragm, you can generically turn the water off, drain the tank completely, press the Schrader valve and let it fill with no pressure applied. This will get you in a reasonable ballpark for function. Since the air bubble gets absorbed in a few months (on big tanks), you do this job quite often. You eventually switch to using compressed air, which can overfill the tank with air. Not a problem with submerged pumps, but with a jet pump, you lose prime in the pump. Symptoms of inadequate air in the tank is the pump motor cycling on rapidly. The less air in the tank, the more rapid the pump motor cycles. This will burn out the contacts in the controller. A bladder tank does not need recharging. That's what makes them nice. If the diaphragm ruptures, they start needing recharging because the air leaks into the water, albeit at a lower rate due to the much smaller surface area contact. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Mark Andy" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking > Hi Mark. > > The pressure tanks have air in the top to provide the pressure. > On ones that don't have a diaphram, the air bubble slowly is > absorbed into the water and disappears. So you need to let more > air into it every so often. > > I don't know which valves to turn to let air in, we have a gravity system. > > If you have the diaphram kind, the diaphram can leak and cause > the same problem. > > > You shouldn't be getting pressure directly from the pump, its > only supposed to fill the tank not pressurize the system. > > Eric > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as foxtrapper at aceweb.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 13 04:01:26 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:01:26 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Good shower head for low pressure References: <20071209194606.CFGT9436.mta16.adelphia.net@randall> <4760C088.1090500@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003101c83d77$822eb200$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Those nozzles are low flow, not low pressure. They're actually quite lousy with low pressure, creating a solid dribble stream under low pressure. Btdt. Many times people mistake low flow for low pressure. Very few places actually have low pressure, though with the buildup in the pipes they do have restricted flow. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kemp" To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 12:18 AM Subject: [Shop-talk] Good shower head for low pressure > Regarding the e-mails about showers and low water pressure - Here is > something some of you might find useful: > > I was renting a place with bad water pressure for a while and discovered > the "Incredible Head" shower head. A quick search shows > http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000UNU9US/ as an example, but they used to > be available in many locations. They don't wear out, so I have not > looked in years. The one I use every day I got in 1990. Every 5 years > or so I soak it in vinegar for a few minutes and it looks like new > again. You can also take it apart if you have junk in your pipes. This > is one of the best $5 I've spent. > > I was on a two week business trip and stuck in a hotel with bad water > pressure, so got a second one without the flow control ($2.95 at a local > hardware store) that I traveled with. It is smaller than a 35mm film > canister and provides a nice shower regardless of water pressure if the > hotel shower head sucks. See the sample at > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HE6PIA/ > > As an added bonus, it saves water too. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as foxtrapper at aceweb.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 13 05:30:57 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:30:57 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Interesting! Did some searching around, and found these supposedly as the results of the April 2007 Machinist's Workshop magazine comparison test. Penetrating oil ..... Average load None ..................... 516 pounds WD-40 .................. 238 pounds PB Blaster ............. 214 pounds Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds Kano Kroil ............ 106 pounds ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds Do a google on "Ed's red bore cleaner", you'll find you've got half the ingredients of a very popular home brewed gun cleaner. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" To: Cc: "Shop Talk" Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:24 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good > *Donno about Gibbs but some magazine recently ran a test of all available > penetrants including "Kroil and "Blaster" . . Kroil was best but ALL were > beaten by the homemade combination of 50-50 acetone and ATF. I mixed up a > batch for all my buddies and we are happy with it but it WILL savage > paint.* From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 06:22:39 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:22:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712130522u322e4cd6ua7bc3d61ea1af025@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 13, 2007 7:30 AM, Nolan wrote: > Interesting! > > Did some searching around, and found these supposedly as the results of the > April 2007 Machinist's Workshop magazine comparison test. > Which, without knowing their methods, is just a chart of numbers. (Knowing what I do about Machinist's workshop, not knowing their methods is just as informative and meaningful as knowing them.) What are they supposed to mean? -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 13 07:54:44 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:54:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <2400a5d40712130522u322e4cd6ua7bc3d61ea1af025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701c83d98$1cb582c0$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Went and did more Googling for you. Supposedly, the test was the load needed to remove a dowel pin, put finger-tight in a cold-rolled low-carbon-steel bar before corrosion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "Nolan" Cc: "Shop Talk" Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good > On Dec 13, 2007 7:30 AM, Nolan wrote: >> Interesting! >> >> Did some searching around, and found these supposedly as the results of >> the >> April 2007 Machinist's Workshop magazine comparison test. >> > > Which, without knowing their methods, is just a chart of numbers. > (Knowing what I do about Machinist's workshop, not knowing their > methods is just as informative and meaningful as knowing them.) > What are they supposed to mean? From arvidj at visi.com Thu Dec 13 08:22:54 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:22:54 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> I have that issue at home. The test was not something that would impress Consumer Reports but at least is was better than unrelated anecdotal information from multiple sources. Arvid ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan" To: "Shop Talk" Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 6:30 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good > Interesting! > > Did some searching around, and found these supposedly as the results of the > April 2007 Machinist's Workshop magazine comparison test. > > Penetrating oil ..... Average load > None ..................... 516 pounds > WD-40 .................. 238 pounds > PB Blaster ............. 214 pounds > Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds > Kano Kroil ............ 106 pounds > ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds > > Do a google on "Ed's red bore cleaner", you'll find you've got half the > ingredients of a very popular home brewed gun cleaner. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elton E. (Tony) Clark" > To: > Cc: "Shop Talk" > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:24 AM > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good > > >> *Donno about Gibbs but some magazine recently ran a test of all available >> penetrants including "Kroil and "Blaster" . . Kroil was best but ALL were >> beaten by the homemade combination of 50-50 acetone and ATF. I mixed up a >> batch for all my buddies and we are happy with it but it WILL savage >> paint.* > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as arvidj at visi.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From eabb at loc.gov Thu Dec 13 08:40:14 2007 From: eabb at loc.gov (Eugene D Abbondelo) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:40:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. In-Reply-To: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> References: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> Message-ID: <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Shoppers: I find this discussion very interesting. I'd like to ask a less technical question if I may: I live in a city and have public water and sewer;everything works fine. I've never owned a home not being so provided. My wife and I plan on retiring in about 3 years and moving to a rural area. When buying a house that is not on a public water/sewer supply is a normal house inspection going to cover the problems that have been brought up in this discussion (low pressure/capacity; type of pipe used, etc.) or do you really have to get a specialist in to check that specific aspect (water/sewer) of any house you're really interested in? Sounds like you could unknowingly inherit a poor system needing lots of money to fix. Simply turning the water on or flushing a toilet in an inspection may not be enough. Thanks for any advice. Gene >>> "Mark Miller" 12/12/2007 10:51 PM >>> I have a well. It puts out about 1.6 gallons per minute. For code purposes (and common sense) I have a large (2500 gallon) storage tank................ From stuart.a.galt at boeing.com Thu Dec 13 09:06:41 2007 From: stuart.a.galt at boeing.com (Galt, Stuart A) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:06:41 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. In-Reply-To: <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> References: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: IMHO you would be foolish to not test the well for water quality and quantity. If possible try to find out if the area has a problem with wells going dry etc. The local well drilling company can be a great source of info as they probably put in most of the wells in the local area. The septic system should be checked as well (groan)... Stuart Also, w.r.t. PEX: The only disadvantage I can see is that it is not as rodent resistant as copper. In a rural environment I constantly have to deal with little critters trying to get in and a hole in the floor with plastic pipe is much easier to chew than copper.... DAMHIKT! > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene D Abbondelo [mailto:eabb at loc.gov] > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 7:40 AM > To: shop-talk at autox.team.net; markmiller at threeboysfarm.com > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wells and such. > > Shoppers: > > I find this discussion very interesting. I'd like to ask a > less technical question if I may: > > I live in a city and have public water and sewer;everything > works fine. I've never owned a home not being so provided. > My wife and I plan on retiring in about 3 years and moving to > a rural area. When buying a house that is not on a public > water/sewer supply is a normal house inspection going to > cover the problems that have been brought up in this > discussion (low pressure/capacity; type of pipe used, etc.) > or do you really have to get a specialist in to check that > specific aspect (water/sewer) of any house you're really > interested in? > Sounds like you could unknowingly inherit a poor system > needing lots of money to fix. Simply turning the water on or > flushing a toilet in an inspection may not be enough. > > Thanks for any advice. > > Gene > > >>> "Mark Miller" 12/12/2007 > 10:51 PM >>> > I have a well. It puts out about 1.6 gallons per minute. > For code purposes (and common sense) I have a large (2500 > gallon) storage tank................ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as stuart.a.galt at boeing.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From leavcast at infomagic.net Thu Dec 13 09:15:09 2007 From: leavcast at infomagic.net (George) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:15:09 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. References: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <004d01c83da3$57d130b0$6601a8c0@D255G851> In California most rural transactions require a separate septic inspection and well inspection. Make sure you pick a good inspector, not one chosen by the seller's real estate agent. George C RE Investor in CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene D Abbondelo" To: ; Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wells and such. > Shoppers: > > I find this discussion very interesting. I'd like to ask a less technical > question if I may: > > I live in a city and have public water and sewer;everything works fine. > I've > never owned a home not being so provided. My wife and I plan on retiring > in > about 3 years and moving to a rural area. When buying a house that is not > on > a public water/sewer supply is a normal house inspection going to cover > the > problems that have been brought up in this discussion (low > pressure/capacity; > type of pipe used, etc.) or do you really have to get a specialist in to > check > that specific aspect (water/sewer) of any house you're really interested > in? > Sounds like you could unknowingly inherit a poor system needing lots of > money > to fix. Simply turning the water on or flushing a toilet in an inspection > may > not be enough. > > Thanks for any advice. From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 13 09:16:16 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:16:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. References: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <000601c83da3$7d377850$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> A home inspection is only as good as the home inspector performs. A good one is worth his/her weight in gold. A bad one really hurts you. There's no one blanket answer. A good inspector will do all those things, and more. A lousy one won't. I would recommend finding one who is knowledgeable in rural farm houses and such in the case you've described. They will be much more aware of the types of problems you find out in the sticks and with old houses, as compared to one who does new construction in the city. Different problems. >From wells to old pipes and old wiring, chimney fires, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene D Abbondelo" To: ; Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] wells and such. > Shoppers: > > I find this discussion very interesting. I'd like to ask a less technical > question if I may: > > I live in a city and have public water and sewer;everything works fine. > I've > never owned a home not being so provided. My wife and I plan on retiring > in > about 3 years and moving to a rural area. When buying a house that is not > on > a public water/sewer supply is a normal house inspection going to cover > the > problems that have been brought up in this discussion (low > pressure/capacity; > type of pipe used, etc.) or do you really have to get a specialist in to > check > that specific aspect (water/sewer) of any house you're really interested > in? > Sounds like you could unknowingly inherit a poor system needing lots of > money > to fix. Simply turning the water on or flushing a toilet in an inspection > may > not be enough. From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Dec 13 09:33:23 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:33:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. In-Reply-To: <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> References: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Eugene D Abbondelo wrote: > I find this discussion very interesting. I'd like to ask a less > technical question if I may: > > I live in a city and have public water and sewer;everything works fine. > I've never owned a home not being so provided. My wife and I plan on > retiring in about 3 years and moving to a rural area. When buying a > house that is not on a public water/sewer supply is a normal house > inspection going to cover the problems that have been brought up in this > discussion (low pressure/capacity; type of pipe used, etc.) or do you > really have to get a specialist in to check that specific aspect > (water/sewer) of any house you're really interested in? Sounds like you > could unknowingly inherit a poor system needing lots of money to fix. > Simply turning the water on or flushing a toilet in an inspection may > not be enough. I think like with most home inspections, it really depends on the inspector you get. Personally, I've got about a 50/50 ratio on "snake charmer" to "ok" the two times I've used them... Make sure you get recommendations, and ask them if they're able to handle inspecting well/septic systems. If their answer is handwaving, walk away. Also... For both places I've been involved with (selling my house, buying another), the municipality drove septic inspections... That dictated replacing the sewage line as the place I was selling (on city water/sewer) and putting in a whole new leech field, another spetic tank, and a pump at the place we bought. The 'good' news, depending on which side you're coming from, is that the current owners are responsible for fixing any of these problems and they can't sell the house until they do (or until the money is in escrow to do it when the ground thaws, if that applies to you). I grew up with a well/septic system, then after I moved away from home had city water/sewer until our current house which is back to well/septic. I'll take city water/sewer every time, if its available. Well and septic, to me, are just hassle after hassle, occassionaly with big dollars required. City water/sewer is a couple pipes that go to the road, perhaps with a pump in some cases. Way the heck easier to deal with. Mark From ericm at lne.com Thu Dec 13 11:06:30 2007 From: ericm at lne.com (ericm at lne.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:06:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. In-Reply-To: <004d01c83da3$57d130b0$6601a8c0@D255G851> References: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC> <47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> <004d01c83da3$57d130b0$6601a8c0@D255G851> Message-ID: <20071213180630.GA7485@slack.lne.com> On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 09:15:09AM -0700, George wrote: > In California most rural transactions require a separate septic inspection > and well inspection. Make sure you pick a good inspector, not one chosen by > the seller's real estate agent. When we bought our rural california property, we had the well and septic inspected by inspectors we (or our agent) selected. Both did a good job and we have used them to service their respective specialties since. If you get a good inspection, know the issues up front and take them into account in the purachase, then the only real issue is maintenance and fixing stuff that's broke. In 10 years we have had the water system quit four times- twice a relay on top of the water tank stuck, requiring me to climb a 20' tank and jiggle the relay. Twice something in the well pump broke- once the pump drive, once a pipe rusted through. If you're mentally prepared for the water to stop working and then deal with it, it is not so bad. For some reason it seems to happen at the worst possible times, but that it also to be expected. Eric From cak at dimebank.com Thu Dec 13 11:29:12 2007 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:29:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. Message-ID: <200712131829.lBDITCxU027701@moose.dimebank.com> We bought a "cabin" in the Sierra foothills about 5 years ago; it's got a well and septic. I grew up with septic, but had never lived with a well before. We're there about every third weekend, which makes tending to plumbing "interesting". The inspector checked for output over an hour (5 GPM) and sent off a sample to a lab to check for coliform bacteria. I think those are probably required by the state. We've run the well dry once, by accident - someone/something broke off a PVC hose bib riser in the yard while we were gone, and we arrived to find no water. The riser was broken off flush, so we had the pump wiring apart and were preparing to pull the pump (300' down) when Pat noticed the puddle down the hill... that was a cheap lesson that could have been much more expensive. We've since learned about keeping the pump house from freezing, which filters work and which don't, diaphragm pressure tanks and rust bacteria, pretty much on our own and with the help of the web. The property consists of two buildings, which makes draining the system in winter something of a challenge. I'm going to be installing some new cutoff valves soon... From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Dec 13 12:19:54 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:19:54 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] About the well & water pressure & life sucking In-Reply-To: <002c01c83d77$080c8560$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> References: <20071212210103.GF31739@slack.lne.com> <002c01c83d77$080c8560$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> Message-ID: <01f201c83dbd$245877b0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > A bladder tank does not need recharging. Well, at least a lot less often. RO systems typically have a bladder tank though, and most of them need recharging every 3-5 years in my experience. And when I helped a friend recharge his house tank, it was still working great 2 years later (so I doubt there was a hole in the bladder). Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Dec 13 12:42:53 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:42:53 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] a(nother) plumbing question In-Reply-To: <476089F1.1030205@hornesystemstx.com> References: <121220072105.3759.47604D04000C6E3100000EAF220700320104040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> <476089F1.1030205@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <01f301c83dc0$5a1acc60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > I capped off all the openings and used a pressure > gauge on one pipe. To my surprise the pressure was about 75 psi! I > turned on a nearby faucet and the pressure dropped to 30 psi. > It turns > out that the previous owner used 3/4" pipe to connect the > house to the > meter, a distance of 700'. IMO, if the flow of a single faucet dropped the pressure by 45 psi, you have something else going on besides 700' of 3/4" pipe. This chart says even 4.8 gpm (which is a big faucet) should only drop about 17.5 psi through 700' of 3/4" steel pipe. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-loss-steel-pipes-d_307.html Randall From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Thu Dec 13 13:47:03 2007 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:47:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <003d01c83dc9$54a68860$0201a8c0@DADSTOY> I use Gibbs on my guns. Have never used it on rusty stuff. My favorite for that is Kroil sold by Kano Labs. -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Chadwick E. Labno Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 10:33 PM To: Shop Talk Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good Anyone have experence with this penetrating oil? thanks, chad http://www.usalubrications.com/gibbs.html You are subscribed as gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Thu Dec 13 15:50:09 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:50:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing Porch Columns Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071213175009.00aeb0f0@pop.east.cox.net> Hey gang, I'm trying to replace the old wooden columns on my front porch with some new vinyl ones, and need some help. Anyone done any siding? I've had the soffett (sp) and facia wrapped with aluminumn when I had the clapboard covered with siding (years ago). I hope I've got all the names right, but the spelling is probably wrong. What I'm calling the facia, is the vertical front towards the yard, because it is "facing - ya". The soffett is the covering of the over hang and faces streight down. The beam, or what ever is at the outter edge of the roof line, and runs the length of the porch, had some wood coming down both sides so as to form a pocket around the beam. The top of the column then sits in this pocket. Similar to this ascii art: house base of beam towards front yard |-----------------| | | | | | | | column | going down to floor of porch I have put some pictures of the siding, soffet & facia up: http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/PorchBeamWrap-1.jpg - shows where I've pryed up a section of the facia cover. The white square is the original wood. http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/PorchBeamWrap-2.jpg - shows where I've managed to pry down the bottom "L" covering the bottom of the beam. The white thing on the right is the top of a column. http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/PorchBeamWrap-3.jpg - pretty much the same as the picture above. http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/SoffetFaciaPorchCeiling.jpg - shows the soffett and facia, bottom of the beam is the flat bottom and I've pried up the front covering. http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/SoffetBearWrap.jpg - prying the soffett covering away from the "L" that covers the bottom of the beam. http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/Facia.jpg - shows the soffett pryed away from the lower "L" covering the bottom of the beam. http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/PorchSiding.jpg - shows the ceiling of the porch, the top of 1 column the covering over the bottom of the beam, and some of the facia. http://members.cox.net/jblair1948/Porch/PorchSidingBottomMolding.jpg - A close up of the seam on the inside of the porch siding. Can't figure out how to remove it. Don't even know if I have to. I need to move 1 column about 2" to one side. So I just can't chop off the old column flush with the siding, and since the column actually sits up inside the channel above, I need to get access to where the top of the column is attached to the beam or what ever it's called. I've tried to lift the brown corrigated (soffett) up, but it won't budge. So I'm trying to pull the nails and pry the covering off the fasic or front of the beam. When the contractor boxed this, he nailed an "L" piece to the back side. Then made another "L" to cover the bottom and part way up the front of the facia. Finally there is another "L" that covers the facia, and holds the "L" that covers the bottom where the channel or pocket. I can't get the piece off the vertical as it goes up under the soffett and I can't figure out how to remove the soffett, or if I have to. I'm trying to be careful so I don't distroy the aluminum covering, but I can't actually get it off, so I'm prying it out of the way. Is this the way to go? Is there a better way? Any short cuts? Or am I on the right track, it just takes time and patience? TIA John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From jibjib at att.net Thu Dec 13 18:50:47 2007 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:50:47 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] wells and such. In-Reply-To: <004d01c83da3$57d130b0$6601a8c0@D255G851> References: <000401c83d3b$6e293be0$6400a8c0@OFFICEPC><47610C0E020000740002B6EE@ntgwgate.loc.gov> <004d01c83da3$57d130b0$6601a8c0@D255G851> Message-ID: <00c101c83df3$c03b7b10$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> > Make sure you pick a good inspector, not one chosen by the seller's real estate agent. As a RE investor and husband of a Realtor, I'll very strongly second that statement. Ask around before committing to any inspector. Make sure they have certified credentials, lots of class time (education) and are referred by folks you trust. Jack From jibjib at att.net Thu Dec 13 18:53:09 2007 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:53:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40712130522u322e4cd6ua7bc3d61ea1af025@mail.gmail.com> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com><000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <2400a5d40712130522u322e4cd6ua7bc3d61ea1af025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c201c83df4$14a8f1f0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> I'm a long time, highly satisfied user of Kano Labs (Kroil) products. Does anyone know if the 50/50 Acetone/ATF mix dissolves rust well. That is one of the things that makes Kano products so good. Jack From eric at megageek.com Thu Dec 13 19:11:23 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:11:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Home inspectors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While on the topic, I am licensed as a realtor in NJ (but I don't practice it.) Here is my advice on finding a good home inspector... One, ask a few of the better realtors in the area for recommendations. Then ask them to see recent reports they did. They may give you a "confidentiality" line, tell them to take off the name and address them then. Make sure the report is not just a "check list" of items. it should have details on items that are not up to standards as well. The more reports you see, the better you can gauge good inspectors from snake charmers. Lastly, do NOT shop by cost. A good inspector will cost more. If you go with the cheapest one, that is what you'll get. I also recommend being there with them when they do the inspection. Have clothes on to get dirty and make sure your guy spends alot of time looking around. Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From shoptalk at centipi.com Thu Dec 13 22:17:52 2007 From: shoptalk at centipi.com (Mike Frerichs) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:17:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Home inspectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001501c83e10$ad69a580$6801a8c0@proteus457> Everything Moose said is good. To that I'll add: I suggest looking for an ASHI Certified inspector (American Society of Home Inspectors). There's a reason that their certification is the hardest to get of all the national certifications. When you find someone who claims to be ASHI Certified, lookup his or her name and company name on the ASHI web site to make sure they actually are certified and in good standing. (www.ashi.org) FYI: A CERTIFIED ASHI inspector has done at least 250 paid inspections, passed the National Home Inspector Test and the ASHI Code of Ethics test, and has to take at least 20 hours of continuing education each year to maintain certification. An ASHI ASSOCIATE has done less than 250 inspections, and may or may not have passed either of the tests. Ask the potential inspector how long his or her inspections take on average. An inspection on even a small house should take at least three to four hours. When you get down to it, there is a LOT of stuff to look at. Ask if they carry both E&O and general liability insurance (the good ones do). Make them prove it. Ask them if they can also fix anything they find wrong. They'd better say "No"! You don't want someone finding things "wrong" in hopes of getting paid to fix them. This is a conflict of interest that will get you booted out of ASHI in a big hurry. 2 cents from an insider. Mike Frerichs ASHI Associate working hard to become Certified. > -----Original Message----- > From: eric at megageek.com > > While on the topic, I am licensed as a realtor in NJ (but I don't practice > it.) Here is my advice on finding a good home inspector... > > One, ask a few of the better realtors in the area for recommendations. > > Then ask them to see recent reports they did. They may give you a > "confidentiality" line, tell them to take off the name and address them > then. > > Make sure the report is not just a "check list" of items. it should have > details on items that are not up to standards as well. The more reports > you see, the better you can gauge good inspectors from snake charmers. > > Lastly, do NOT shop by cost. A good inspector will cost more. If you go > with the cheapest one, that is what you'll get. > > I also recommend being there with them when they do the inspection. Have > clothes on to get dirty and make sure your guy spends alot of time looking > around. > > Moose From mark at sccaprepared.com Fri Dec 14 00:32:49 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:32:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] More HF toolbox Message-ID: Howdy, http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/emails/display.do?fname=50_RetailBv2.html Here's a coupon to buy the bottom of that toolbox for $300 instead of the retail $500 or 'normal' price of $400. That's cheap enough that I might have to buy it even though I wasn't planning on it. Which is 'good', but is perhaps not so good for my marriage! :-) Mark From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Fri Dec 14 04:12:15 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:12:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com><000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f2 9c40a@mde.state.md.us><2400a5d40712130522u322e4cd6ua7bc3d61ea1af025@mail.gmail.com> <00c201c83df4$14a8f1f0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Message-ID: <002001c83e42$2f471390$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> > Does anyone know if the 50/50 Acetone/ATF mix dissolves rust well. That > is > one of the things that makes Kano products so good. Acetone plays funny with rust. It seems to penetrate the heck out of it. I learned this accidentally years ago with good old Rustoleum rusty metal primer. Straight from the can, rusty metal primer is way too thick and doesn't work worth a darn. I found myself inspired one day, and dumped a bunch or acetone into a can of it, thinning it to waterlike consistency. I then brushed it on some farm equipment like the hydroscoop bucket and the big post hole digger. The stuff soaked into the rust. Hmmm. Later I went scooping gravel and such for the day. At the end of the day, the bucket was still painted. Hmmm again. The paint gradually wore off the working area of the bucket in use. Years later the equipment I'd painted with acetone thinned rusty metal primer was still solid and rust free. I finally posted by results on a good-ole-boy farm board, only to learn my discovery was well known to many of those ole boys. Acetone somehow causes things to wick into rust tremendously. My highly calibrated method of adding acetone in precise ratio mixes is to glop it in until I figure I'm at least 50/50 acetone. As it evaporates in the can while painting, I glop some more in. Very precise! I've tried it with some other chemicals, like lacquer thinner and the like. They don't work as well as straight acetone. Interestingly, acetone and atf are two key ingredients in a popular home brew gun cleaner known as "Ed's Red". From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 11:38:28 2007 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:38:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers Message-ID: Anyone bought or devised a way to seal off ceiling A/C vents made of aluminum - that the usual magnets won't stick to? PJ _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec From kennedybc at comcast.net Fri Dec 14 11:47:47 2007 From: kennedybc at comcast.net (Brian C Kennedy) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:47:47 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: PJ I used to take the cover off and stuff insulation in the duct. Pain in the butt, but it looked nice. Then I discovered magnetic sign material and my covers are magnetic. Brian C. Kennedy > From: PJ McGarvey > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:38:28 -0500 > To: Shop Talk > Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers > > Anyone bought or devised a way to seal off ceiling A/C vents made of aluminum > - that the usual magnets won't stick to? > > PJ From wmc_st at xxiii.com Fri Dec 14 12:55:40 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:55:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4762DFBC.2030105@xxiii.com> PJ McGarvey wrote: > Anyone bought or devised a way to seal off ceiling A/C vents made of aluminum > - that the usual magnets won't stick to? Just curious -- why would you want to do this? Do you have some sort of non-forced-air heating? -Wayne From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Dec 14 13:07:12 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:07:12 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers In-Reply-To: <4762DFBC.2030105@xxiii.com> References: <4762DFBC.2030105@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <02ca01c83e8c$ea420d40$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Just curious -- why would you want to do this? Do you have > some sort of > non-forced-air heating? Dunno about PJ, but I do it because I have some rooms that aren't always heated. The damper in the register doesn't seal tightly. Randall From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Dec 14 13:26:30 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:26:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Fwd: Re: Sealing A/C registers Message-ID: <189037.65192.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Doug Braun wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:25:29 -0800 (PST) > From: Doug Braun > Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers > To: PJ McGarvey > > I have a similar problem: I want to seal off the > louvered opening for a whole-house attic fan. I had > assumed the frame in the upstairs hall ceiling was > steel, and I prepared a 3' x 3' square of foam-core > board, with a magnetic strip all the way around the > edge. Then I realized the frame was aluminum. :-( > > I got a pint of this "magnetic paint" from the > hardware store. I guess it has iron dust in it. > I'm > planning to paint this on the louver frame and > topcoat > it with white paint. Hopefully it will not look too > ugly > and the magnets will actually stick to it... > > Doug > > > --- PJ McGarvey wrote: > > > Anyone bought or devised a way to seal off ceiling > > A/C vents made of aluminum > > - that the usual magnets won't stick to? > > > > PJ > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play > > Chicktionary! > > > http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec > > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > You are subscribed as doug at dougbraun.com > > > > Shop-talk mailing list > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > > > http://www.team.net/archive From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 13:40:43 2007 From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:40:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers In-Reply-To: <43753.70948.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <43753.70948.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hmm, magnetic paint, sounds like an idea! Let me know how that goes. I'm guessing you might need to experiment with how many coats to put on to get the magnetic material to stick. I'm sealing off the A/C vents in the ceiling b/c the louvers don't close completely on them, and in the heating season, I don't want heat to rise into them (even just a little bit). ... And b/c every year I find more ways to get frugal with heating oil, and find more comfort in the house (no drafts and less heat loss). And as far as I can tell, it's starting to make a huge difference, I'm using about half of what I was 6 years ago. Every little bit counts I guess. PJ> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:25:29 -0800> From: doug at dougbraun.com> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers> To: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> > I have a similar problem: I want to seal off the> louvered opening for a whole-house attic fan. I had> assumed the frame in the upstairs hall ceiling was> steel, and I prepared a 3' x 3' square of foam-core> board, with a magnetic strip all the way around the> edge. Then I realized the frame was aluminum. :-(> > I got a pint of this "magnetic paint" from the> hardware store. I guess it has iron dust in it. I'm> planning to paint this on the louver frame and topcoat> it with white paint. Hopefully it will not look too> ugly> and the magnets will actually stick to it...> > Doug> > > --- PJ McGarvey wrote:> > > Anyone bought or devised a way to seal off ceiling> > A/C vents made of aluminum> > - that the usual magnets won't stick to?> > > > PJ _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec From jniolon at bham.rr.com Fri Dec 14 13:47:37 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:47:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers In-Reply-To: References: <43753.70948.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey PJ ??? how bout Velcro ??? you can get it in different colors and it's pretty air tight when squoze together good... if that won't work... you might try a bead of rubber cement then stick your covers on... it will come off next spring and you can roll up the rubber cement with your fingers afterward.. john > Hmm, magnetic paint, sounds like an idea! Let me know how that goes. I'm > guessing you might need to experiment with how many coats to put on to get > the > magnetic material to stick. > > I'm sealing off the A/C vents in the ceiling b/c the louvers don't close > completely on them, and in the heating season, I don't want heat to rise > into > them (even just a little bit). > > ... And b/c every year I find more ways to get frugal with heating oil, > and > find more comfort in the house (no drafts and less heat loss). And as far > as > I can tell, it's starting to make a huge difference, I'm using about half > of > what I was 6 years ago. Every little bit counts I guess. > > PJ> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:25:29 -0800> From: doug at dougbraun.com> > Subject: > Re: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers> To: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> > I > have a > similar problem: I want to seal off the> louvered opening for a > whole-house > attic fan. I had> assumed the frame in the upstairs hall ceiling was> > steel, > and I prepared a 3' x 3' square of foam-core> board, with a magnetic strip > all > the way around the> edge. Then I realized the frame was aluminum. :-(> > I > got > a pint of this "magnetic paint" from the> hardware store. I guess it has > iron > dust in it. I'm> planning to paint this on the louver frame and topcoat> > it > with white paint. Hopefully it will not look too> ugly> and the magnets > will > actually stick to it...> > Doug> > > --- PJ McGarvey > > wrote:> > > Anyone bought or devised a way to seal off ceiling> > A/C > vents > made of aluminum> > - that the usual magnets won't stick to?> > > > PJ > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! > http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Fri Dec 14 14:08:20 2007 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:08:20 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers In-Reply-To: References: <43753.70948.qm@web601.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797B62B74@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> john niolon wrote: > how bout Velcro ??? you can get it in different colors > and it's pretty air tight when squeeze together good... If you are going to stick stuff on, crafts stores sell stick on strips of "refrigerator magnet" material. Stick that on, and the magnetic stick on covers will stick to that... Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From doug at dougbraun.com Fri Dec 14 14:22:17 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:22:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <833651.1156.qm@web614.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My ceiling fan has a whole bunch of hinged louvers that lift up when the fan runs. They fit together pretty well when closed, but there are still a lot of joints where air can leak through, and the thin aluminum sheet does not have any insulating ability. So I want something that will better block any air leakage and insulate better. Unfortunately the design of the fan does not make it easy to put something over the top of it, in the attic. The 3x3 sheet of foam-core is very light, and it will have 12 feet of magnetic strip holding it up, so the paint should not have to be especially attractive. A couple of weeks ago I put weatherstripping around the pull-down attic stairs, and I added a removable hold-up bolt that will press the door more tightly against the weatherstripping. That seems to have had a noticeable effect on reducing the amount of heat needed upstairs. Doug --- PJ McGarvey wrote: > Hmm, magnetic paint, sounds like an idea! Let me > know how that goes. I'm > guessing you might need to experiment with how many > coats to put on to get the > magnetic material to stick. > > I'm sealing off the A/C vents in the ceiling b/c the > louvers don't close > completely on them, and in the heating season, I > don't want heat to rise into > them (even just a little bit). From mbarre at juno.com Fri Dec 14 16:06:37 2007 From: mbarre at juno.com (Matt) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:06:37 GMT Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers Message-ID: <20071214.180637.16576.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> Another possibility is the sheets of heat shrink plastic sheeting that is in home improvement stores near the weatherstripping. It is advertised as useful for sealing drafty windows - sort of an indoor storm window... It could be used to seal various apertures. Matt -- Doug Braun wrote: My ceiling fan has a whole bunch of hinged louvers that lift up when the fan runs. They fit together pretty well when closed, but there are still a lot of joints where air can leak through, and the thin aluminum sheet does not have any insulating ability. So I want something that will better block any air leakage and insulate better. Unfortunately the design of the fan does not make it easy to put something over the top of it, in the attic. The 3x3 sheet of foam-core is very light, and it will have 12 feet of magnetic strip holding it up, so the paint should not have to be especially attractive. A couple of weeks ago I put weatherstripping around the pull-down attic stairs, and I added a removable hold-up bolt that will press the door more tightly against the weatherstripping. That seems to have had a noticeable effect on reducing the amount of heat needed upstairs. Doug --- PJ McGarvey wrote: > Hmm, magnetic paint, sounds like an idea! Let me > know how that goes. I'm > guessing you might need to experiment with how many > coats to put on to get the > magnetic material to stick. > > I'm sealing off the A/C vents in the ceiling b/c the > louvers don't close > completely on them, and in the heating season, I > don't want heat to rise into > them (even just a little bit). You are subscribed as mbarre at juno.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive _____________________________________________________________ Need cash? Click to get a payday loan. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3m3aO3muekbJWqWuqijOMQfP88n AeCBuFPMTifJw4fJZgz0i/ From kvacek at ameritech.net Fri Dec 14 16:13:53 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:13:53 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Sealing A/C registers References: <20071214.180637.16576.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <00c501c83ea6$ff3c3c10$6e01a8c0@KARL> Those "inside storm window" kits work well, but buy quality, The 3M tape works well, and peels off clean. The other brands we've tried (Manco and Frost King) have left a nasty mess that usually required solvent to clean, and in one case repainting. And the 3M film is clearer too. For another possibility, there are a number of brands of peelable winterizing caulk available, at least in cold climates. Looks like clear silicone, but in the spring it peels off clean with little or no residue to wipe off. Maybe you could glue your blanking plates on with that. Karl > Another possibility is the sheets of heat shrink plastic sheeting that is > in > home improvement stores near the weatherstripping. It is advertised as > useful > for sealing drafty windows - sort of an indoor storm window... It could > be > used to seal various apertures. > Matt From arvidj at visi.com Fri Dec 14 17:50:48 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:50:48 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com><000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> Ok, the article "Testing Different Types of Penetrating Oils" is in the 2007 April/May issue of "Machinist's Workshop", not to be confused with the "Home Shop Machinist" from the same publisher but on alternate months. In summary: Author Lloyd Bender drilled then reamed .250 holes into half inch long pieces of 5/8 inch diameter low carbon steel. He then cleaned them and some 1/4 by 1 inch dowel pins for twenty minute in an ultrasonic bath of methanol to remove any oils, etc. Light finger pressure was used to insert the pins into the holes leaving a quarter inch of pin sticking out each end of the pin. Think little tiny wooden rolling pin. A total of 18 samples were made. "Years of exposure" was simulated by 12 cycles of 10 minutes in a 3% table salt solution followed by 50 minutes of air drying at 105 degrees F. There is an "after" picture in the article and all of the samples look pretty rusted, but that is simply an observation and not a may or may not reflect the actual condition of any bolt on my '91 Chev 3/4 ton that has seen too many Minnesota road salt winters. The 18 samples were randomly divided into 6 groups of three. Each of the groups was immersed in one ounce of penetrant for 12 hours. "None" was the control group and was not immersed in anything. Using a single blind method he then tested each of the samples to see how much his Baldwin Compressometer [1200 lb scale] said it took to move the dowel pin. End of summary. Please draw your own conclusions. And as long as we are sort of "on the topic", what type of container would be required to hold a mixture of acetone and darn near anything? Previous posts make me think that a plastic spray bottle would not be my first choice. Maybe an old fashioned metal pump type oil can? Arvid >I have that issue at home. The test was not something that would impress >Consumer Reports but at least is was better than unrelated > anecdotal information from multiple sources. > > Arvid >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Nolan" >> Did some searching around, and found these supposedly as the results of >> the >> April 2007 Machinist's Workshop magazine comparison test. >> >> Penetrating oil ..... Average load >> None ..................... 516 pounds >> WD-40 .................. 238 pounds >> PB Blaster ............. 214 pounds >> Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds >> Kano Kroil ............ 106 pounds >> ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Dec 14 17:56:09 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:56:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com><000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us><003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> Message-ID: <030a01c83eb5$47bb9ea0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Maybe an old fashioned metal pump type oil can? Dunno about acetone, but Kroil ruined one of my metal pump type oil cans. Turned out there was some sort of elastomeric seal inside the pump. Checked a different one and it doesn't seem to have any 'rubber' inside it except the seal inside the lid. So YMMV. Randall From strovato at optonline.net Fri Dec 14 19:13:10 2007 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:13:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <030a01c83eb5$47bb9ea0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> <030a01c83eb5$47bb9ea0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <0JT200DK1JKZ8F21@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> When I bought my Kroil, it came with a "kroiler", which was their name for a metal pump can. I guess they made sure that it's compatible. From cavanadd at verizon.net Fri Dec 14 19:50:05 2007 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:50:05 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071214184731.02f14438@incoming.verizon.net> At 06:50 PM 12/14/2007 -0600, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: >And as long as we are sort of "on the topic", what type of container would >be required to hold a mixture of acetone and darn near anything? Previous >posts make me think that a plastic spray bottle would not be my first >choice. Maybe an old fashioned metal pump type oil can? I have been using one of the H.F .refillable aerosol spray cans with Ed's Red in it for a few years with no problems. Ed's Red is 25% acetone. http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=1102&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName= From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 21:29:28 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:29:28 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712142029t17fe2105t1145a0a4f34d17f3@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 14, 2007 7:50 PM, Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > Ok, the article "Testing Different Types of Penetrating Oils" is in the 2007 > > > And as long as we are sort of "on the topic", what type of container would > be required to hold a mixture of acetone and darn near anything? Previous > posts make me think that a plastic spray bottle would not be my first > choice. Maybe an old fashioned metal pump type oil can? > nalgene wash bottles. You can get one that says "acetone" on the side, even. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From scottmryan at netzero.net Thu Dec 13 03:56:30 2007 From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:56:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES References: Message-ID: <000001c83efe$5ca96600$33a817d1@smrinsp1100> Hi! Is a tahoe a chevy? Doesn't GM use a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor? This is a totally different setup than the VW and Ford MAF which is measuring cooling of airflow past a heated resistor (more robust for MAP). I get a 'long term fuel trim too lean' from both banks on a 98 audi a4 from using e85, which could be caused by a dirty fuel filter, in tank 'sock' or too low pressure fuel pressure regulator. (or fuel pressure regulator vacuum line? although that leaking should be fuel trim too rich) probably unlikely to be the oxy sensors since it's both banks. Good luck! Scott R >From: "john niolon" > MY '03 Tahoe through a check engine light at me yesterday... reader shows > po174 and po176 codes which are engine lean...both banks > > from my googling it seems that it 'might' be a dirty MAF sensor or vacuum > leak > or leaking hoses etc > figured I'd start with the MAF sensor. From scottmryan at netzero.net Sat Dec 15 04:56:18 2007 From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:56:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com> <001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <024e01c83f12$f4560b20$0fa817d1@smrinsp1100> > Jill has, I repeat, had only one other accident in her nearly 40 years of > driving, that when she was 16. And one of the ABS accidents was a t-bone > of > a Windstar going 40 on the cross street in a crowded suburban > neighborhood. I just recently had a similar experiance, except my ABS (98 audi A4) is disabled (at least 1 more bad tone ring and I pulled the fuse until I can figure out which and how many other wheels) and a stupid student pulled out fast at a blindish intersection with a stop sign the other way (I was probably going 33). I hit the brakes, I am fairly sure only the rear wheels locked, stopped around 6" from her front fender. I am not sure how much better (if any) the ABS would have worked; it was dry conditions at around 55-60 degrees. Our saturn ABS ('95) has had several times I had to jam hard on the pedal to get it to stop when on ice (just keeps clicking and barely slowing down) > Now I bet you'd disapprove that I turn off the traction control every time > I > start get in the Cobra too ;-) > Karl I always turn off the traction control on the Saturn in deep snow, you can never get going on slippery deep snow conditions otherwise. (have figured out you have to switch off the traction control and let off the gas pedal before stepping on it again, luckily the switch is easy to hit without having to search for it!) Scott R From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 07:26:39 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:26:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] PO174 - PO176 OBD CODES In-Reply-To: <000001c83efe$5ca96600$33a817d1@smrinsp1100> References: <000001c83efe$5ca96600$33a817d1@smrinsp1100> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712150626k2a6dd353ubba475fa4ca87ec4@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 13, 2007 5:56 AM, scottmryan wrote: > I get a 'long term fuel trim too lean' from both banks on a 98 audi a4 from > using e85, which could be caused by a dirty fuel filter, in tank 'sock' or > too low pressure fuel pressure regulator. (or fuel pressure regulator vacuum > line? although that leaking should be fuel trim too rich) probably unlikely > to be the oxy sensors since it's both banks. Is the Audi supposed to be able to run E85? Flex fuel vehicles have a sensor that tells the computer what the fuel mix is. Ethanol requires a different air-fuel ratio. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Dec 15 09:30:03 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 10:30:03 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Suburban issues References: <112820071943.26788.474DC4C60006A786000068A422007354469D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net><2400a5d40711281220k5c24ecet7f54c43be9e3d644@mail.gmail.com><001901c83201$5905fd60$6e01a8c0@KARL> <024e01c83f12$f4560b20$0fa817d1@smrinsp1100> Message-ID: <00ba01c83f37$bf48a760$6e01a8c0@KARL> > a stupid student They teach that ?? From pethier at comcast.net Sat Dec 15 12:32:29 2007 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:32:29 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Craftsman impact set and Suburban issues Message-ID: <121520071932.24182.47642BCD000390D300005E7622070032019D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> > I just recently had a similar experiance, except my ABS (98 audi A4) is > disabled (at least 1 more bad tone ring and I pulled the fuse Not to pick on Scott personally, but as a general warning: DO NOT EVER PULL THE FUSE ON AN ABS SYSTEM unless you fully understand the method of operation of this particular system. We had a guy do this at an autocross on his cat (I believe it was a Neon ACR) and he ran off the road and hit a fence. Since this bonehead move was also illegal under autocrossing's Stock-Category rules, we banned him from our club for a stated time. On his car, and maybe others, pulling the fuse on the ABS circuit does not just cleanly remove ABS and leave you with a normal braking system. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Sat Dec 15 16:15:15 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:15:15 -1200 Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS fuse (was: ...Suburban issues) Message-ID: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> Seems odd. What happens if one is driving and the fuse blows? No brakes or abnormal brakes? I can't believe anyone woulr engineer such a system. BTW, I didn't realize cat's had ABS or could enter an autocross... ;>) Eric Russell Mebane, NC > > DO NOT EVER PULL THE FUSE ON AN ABS SYSTEM unless you > fully understand the method of operation of this > particular system. We had a guy do this at an autocross > on his cat (I believe it was a Neon ACR) and he ran off > the road and hit a fence. Since this bonehead move was > also illegal under autocrossing's Stock-Category rules, we > banned him from our club for a stated time. On his car, > and maybe others, pulling the fuse on the ABS circuit does > not just cleanly remove ABS and leave you with a normal > braking system. Login from home, work, school. Anywhere! From pethier at comcast.net Sat Dec 15 19:23:59 2007 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 02:23:59 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS fuse (was: ...Suburban issues) Message-ID: <121620070223.22058.47648C3F000E2D540000562A22007636929D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> From: ejrussell at mebtel.net To: pethier at comcast.net, shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] ABS fuse (was: ...Suburban issues) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:18:55 +0000 > Seems odd. What happens if one is driving and the fuse > blows? No brakes or abnormal brakes? I can't believe anyone > woulr engineer such a system. I think that Chrysler not only woulr, but did. There was a considerable discussion of this by the techies in our club at the time. > BTW, I didn't realize cat's had ABS or could enter an > autocross... ;>) But surely you've seen folks type the wrong letter before. Do i need to now type 100 times "car, not cat"? :-) -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From chad at linuxeg.com Sun Dec 16 18:39:15 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:39:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40712142029t17fe2105t1145a0a4f34d17f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> <2400a5d40712142029t17fe2105t1145a0a4f34d17f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> Rather then Mega Pen. I'll start using ATF/acetone although, considering the convenience of a factory packed spray can I may pick up a can of Kroil. Looking at the Kano web site, if you buy a can you get one free. Might take advantage of that offer. Sort of funny, a number of years back I switched to Blaster from Liquid Wrench, from the test results look like I make a bad choice - even though I thought PB worked better - what was that about "anecdotal information"? Thanks, chad From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sun Dec 16 18:42:50 2007 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (JAMES STONE) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:42:50 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing Asbestos Insulation Message-ID: I live in a 100 year old house that has hot water radiator heat. The pipes were originally insulated with asbestos, but this was removed by a previous owner. The basement is pretty cold and I would like to re-insulate the hot water pipes, most of which are 2 1/2". Lowes and Home Depot don't carry pre-formed pipe insulation this large, and wrapping them individually with pipe wrap would be time consuming and expensive. Does anyone know if there is a readily available source for foam insulation this large, or an inexpensive alternative? Thanks! Jim _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 18:53:10 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:53:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> References: <4760A7CF.3000608@linuxeg.com> <000c01c83d84$052d6e60$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> <003401c83d9c$08a0fd60$ef281aac@behavioral.com> <000a01c83eb4$8923a870$80a8a8c0@dellc84024> <2400a5d40712142029t17fe2105t1145a0a4f34d17f3@mail.gmail.com> <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712161753k51d23944p9e96275de9480588@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 16, 2007 8:39 PM, Chadwick E. Labno wrote: > Rather then Mega Pen. I'll start using ATF/acetone although, > considering the convenience of a factory packed spray can I > may pick up a can of Kroil. Looking at the Kano web site, > if you buy a can you get one free. Might take advantage of > that offer. > Sort of funny, a number of years back I switched to Blaster > from Liquid Wrench, from the test results look like I make > a bad choice - even though I thought PB worked better - > what was that about "anecdotal information"? Those are pretty meaningless test results. Even if you accept the methodology as valid (which I don't), it's not clear that's what's being measured is the penetrating ability, as opposed to the lubricating ability. Threaded fasteners, which is what most of us deal with most of the time, are very different beasts than pins that held in place by interference fit. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jamesf at groupwbench.org Sun Dec 16 18:59:39 2007 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:59:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing Asbestos Insulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17191C7B-E0B9-4AC2-BA6E-D0B203D8686C@groupwbench.org> On Dec 16, 2007, at 8:42 PM, JAMES STONE wrote: > I live in a 100 year old house that has hot water radiator heat. > The pipes > were originally insulated with asbestos, but this was removed by a > previous > owner. The basement is pretty cold and I would like to re-insulate > the hot > water pipes, most of which are 2 1/2". Lowes and Home Depot don't > carry > pre-formed pipe insulation this large, and wrapping them > individually with > pipe wrap would be time consuming and expensive. Does anyone know > if there is > a readily available source for foam insulation this large, or an > inexpensive > alternative? You can order the large size fiberglass from a heating supply store, but it isn't cheap. As for alternatives, we came up with a few last night at a party. Best was the corrgated cardboard with facing on only one side, the kind that rolls up easily. Not that we didn't try very hard :-) jim From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Dec 16 19:39:18 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:39:18 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Replacing Asbestos Insulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071217023918.PMGB20056.mta15.adelphia.net@randall> > Lowes and Home Depot don't carry > pre-formed pipe insulation this large, McMaster-Carr does. http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3383 Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Dec 16 19:42:49 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:42:49 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> > Sort of funny, a number of years back I switched to Blaster > from Liquid Wrench, from the test results look like I make a > bad choice - even though I thought PB worked better - what > was that about "anecdotal information"? That's what makes me so suspicious of their test method ... I've tried numerous times and always found LW vastly inferior to either PBB or Kroil. But then, I don't recall ever trying any of them on a smooth pin in a smooth hole. I'm more interested in frozen threads. Randall From chad at linuxeg.com Sun Dec 16 19:53:29 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant continued In-Reply-To: <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> References: <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <4765E4A9.8050001@linuxeg.com> Randall wrote: >>Sort of funny, a number of years back I switched to Blaster >>from Liquid Wrench, from the test results look like I make a >>bad choice - even though I thought PB worked better - what >>was that about "anecdotal information"? >> >> > >That's what makes me so suspicious of their test method ... I've tried >numerous times and always found LW vastly inferior to either PBB or Kroil. > >But then, I don't recall ever trying any of them on a smooth pin in a smooth >hole. I'm more interested in frozen threads. > >Randall > > I have a can of CRC Freeze-Off which, as the name implies, freezes the bolt/nut breaking - in theory - the rust bond. I have not used it so I do not know how well it works. Any comments? From edvs at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 20:46:07 2007 From: edvs at yahoo.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:46:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight again...... Message-ID: <408663.47109.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> OK, I have finally had it with HF's cheap air greas guns http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=219 I am on about my 5th one, and I pulled it out today and once again, even with 125 psi, couldn't get it to spit ANY grease. So, I'm willing to spend a few more dollars on a good "name brand" gun...,As long as it WORKS!! So any brand recomendations out there!!?? TIA Ed ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 21:37:55 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:37:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight again...... In-Reply-To: <408663.47109.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <408663.47109.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712162037o48fc2e68w431cb8d0d36a528b@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 16, 2007 10:46 PM, Ed Van Scoy wrote: > OK, I have finally had it with HF's cheap air greas > guns > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=219 > I am on about my 5th one, and I pulled it out today > and once again, even with 125 psi, couldn't get it to > spit ANY grease. So, I'm willing to spend a few more > dollars on a good "name brand" gun...,As long as it > WORKS!! So any brand recomendations out there!!?? Every shop I've worked in has had lincoln air-operated grease equipment. Mostly it's stuff to fit on 120 lb drums, though. I don't know if the cartridge stuff is as good. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From eltonclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 21:40:44 2007 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:40:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> References: <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: *I wish we could come up with a objective test method that we each could use to test the "home brew" against our favorite penetrant . . I've always been a "Kroil" fan but 5 or 6 of my buddies and I are using the acetone/ATF with unscientifically documented good results . . Any ideas for a "rusted thread" standard test?* *Tony* On Dec 16, 2007 8:42 PM, Randall wrote: > > Sort of funny, a number of years back I switched to Blaster > > from Liquid Wrench, from the test results look like I make a > > bad choice - even though I thought PB worked better - what > > was that about "anecdotal information"? > > That's what makes me so suspicious of their test method ... I've tried > numerous times and always found LW vastly inferior to either PBB or Kroil. > > But then, I don't recall ever trying any of them on a smooth pin in a > smooth > hole. I'm more interested in frozen threads. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as eltonclark at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From gsteve at hammatt.com Sun Dec 16 22:02:18 2007 From: gsteve at hammatt.com (Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon WA USA) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:02:18 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Grease Guns References: <408663.47109.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2400a5d40712162037o48fc2e68w431cb8d0d36a528b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c84069$fff1ce80$0302a8c0@your52698ciuyt> Lincoln! Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "Ed Van Scoy" Cc: "Shop Talk" Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight again...... | On Dec 16, 2007 10:46 PM, Ed Van Scoy wrote: | > OK, I have finally had it with HF's cheap air greas | > guns | > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=219 | > I am on about my 5th one, and I pulled it out today | > and once again, even with 125 psi, couldn't get it to | > spit ANY grease. So, I'm willing to spend a few more | > dollars on a good "name brand" gun...,As long as it | > WORKS!! So any brand recomendations out there!!?? | | Every shop I've worked in has had lincoln air-operated grease | equipment. Mostly it's stuff to fit on 120 lb drums, though. I don't | know if the cartridge stuff is as good. | | | -- | David Scheidt | dmscheidt at gmail.com snip From rbeels at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 23:33:46 2007 From: rbeels at yahoo.com (Richard Beels) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 01:33:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: References: <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20071217013242.03c4f0d0@yahoo.com> I just have to think that if Acetone/ATF was really twice as good as Kroil that those guys working for kano would be using that for the recipe for Kroil with a little sprinkling of magic pixie dust and making a killing. But they're not and there must be a reason for that.... At 12/16/2007 at 23:40, Shakespearean monkeys danced on Elton E. (Tony) Clark's keyboard and said: >*I wish we could come up with a objective test method that we each could use >to test the "home brew" against our favorite penetrant . . I've always been >a "Kroil" fan but 5 or 6 of my buddies and I are using the acetone/ATF with >unscientifically documented good results . . Any ideas for a "rusted >thread" standard test?* Cheers! From doug at dougbraun.com Mon Dec 17 06:18:41 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 05:18:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071217013242.03c4f0d0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <914274.90153.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Acetone will attack paint. Doug --- Richard Beels wrote: > I just have to think that if Acetone/ATF was really > twice as good as > Kroil that those guys working for kano would be > using that for the > recipe for Kroil with a little sprinkling of magic > pixie dust and > making a killing. But they're not and there must be > a reason for that.... From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Dec 17 06:21:44 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:21:44 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: References: <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071217082144.00b1d698@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:40 PM 12/16/2007 -0600, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: >*I wish we could come up with a objective test method that we each could use >to test the "home brew" against our favorite penetrant . . I've always been >a "Kroil" fan but 5 or 6 of my buddies and I are using the acetone/ATF with >unscientifically documented good results . . Any ideas for a "rusted >thread" standard test?* Someone said they didn't like or accept the test that was used for the penetrants. That a pin was not a thread. True a pin is not a threaded rod, but to me his test is quite valid, but maybe not for what we are thinking. His test was uniform, and does measure the abiliby of a penatrant to penatrate. A force fit pin has a lot less clearence than a thread. And it's ability to lubricate. Which we need to help lessen the effort required to break something loose. Now if you really want a test to be more realistic, repeat the same test with one difference. Use bolts instead of pins. The aging process could stay the same, and in fact seems quite good. Then you'd need something like a socket on a breaker bar, and a spring scale, preferably with a teltale, or sticking highest reading so you'd know how much torque was exerted. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Mon Dec 17 08:21:39 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:21:39 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant - any good In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20071217082144.00b1d698@pop.east.cox.net> References: <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> <4765D343.7040104@linuxeg.com> <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> <3.0.5.32.20071217082144.00b1d698@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <47669403.7070501@hornesystemstx.com> My main question about the pin in a hole is: did rust form between the pin and the inside of the hole, or just on the surface where it would be something that would need to be sheared off when the pin is moved? I think a better, but non-scientific test would be to find a set of bolts on the suspension of our cars that have not bee loosened in many years and try one penetrant on one bolt and different ones on.others. Peace, Pat Thusly spake John T. Blair: > At 10:40 PM 12/16/2007 -0600, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: > > >> *I wish we could come up with a objective test method that we each could use >> to test the "home brew" against our favorite penetrant . . I've always been >> a "Kroil" fan but 5 or 6 of my buddies and I are using the acetone/ATF with >> unscientifically documented good results . . Any ideas for a "rusted >> thread" standard test?* >> > > Someone said they didn't like or accept the test that was used for the > penetrants. That a pin was not a thread. True a pin is not a threaded > rod, but to me his test is quite valid, but maybe not for what we are > thinking. His test was uniform, and does measure the abiliby of a > penatrant to penatrate. A force fit pin has a lot less clearence than > a thread. And it's ability to lubricate. Which we need to help lessen > the effort required to break something loose. > > Now if you really want a test to be more realistic, repeat the same test > with one difference. Use bolts instead of pins. The aging process could > stay the same, and in fact seems quite good. Then you'd need something > like a socket on a breaker bar, and a spring scale, preferably with a > teltale, or sticking highest reading so you'd know how much torque was > exerted. > > John > > > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net > Va. Beach, Va > Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > 65 Rambler Classic > > Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan > Bricklin: www.bricklin.org > > If you can read this - Thank a teacher! > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From nogera at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 17 08:42:24 2007 From: nogera at worldnet.att.net (Bob Nogueira) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:42:24 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG - CO2 vs Argon Message-ID: <003401c840c3$6c7582a0$4101a8c0@CARROOM> I've been using C02 with my MIG as I have only welded steel. My next project will be in aluminum so I figure I will need to switch to argon. Questions Are the fittings for argon and CO2 the same? Are the Argon and CO2 bottles the same? My supplier does a bottle exchange for refills, will they generally allow you to switch from one type of gas to another on a bottle exchange? And, What is the price difference between Argon and C02? Thanks Bob Nogueira From mark at sccaprepared.com Mon Dec 17 09:00:49 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:00:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight again...... In-Reply-To: <408663.47109.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <408663.47109.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Ed Van Scoy wrote: > OK, I have finally had it with HF's cheap air greas > guns > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=219 > I am on about my 5th one, and I pulled it out today > and once again, even with 125 psi, couldn't get it to > spit ANY grease. So, I'm willing to spend a few more > dollars on a good "name brand" gun...,As long as it > WORKS!! So any brand recomendations out there!!?? I don't have a brand recommendation, but rather a "Doesn't this exist?" recommendation. Aren't there battery powered versions of these? That seems like it'd be super handy. Mark From ejrussell at mebtel.net Mon Dec 17 09:00:59 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:00:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG - CO2 vs Argon References: <003401c840c3$6c7582a0$4101a8c0@CARROOM> Message-ID: <00ad01c840c6$06c86dc0$0202a8c0@ejrussell> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Nogueira" > Are the fittings for argon and CO2 the same? Unlikely. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From arvidj at visi.com Mon Dec 17 10:39:37 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:39:37 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mega Penetrant continued References: <20071217024249.XLAI7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> <4765E4A9.8050001@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <002101c840d3$cbaf4e80$0202fea9@behavioral.com> I have tried the CRC Freeze-Off and was very unimpressed. It was only one situation - exhaust manifold bolts - and I ended up using the entire can - but they broke anyway. The usual penetrants are applied with just enough to get everything wet, then wait while the work. Freeze-Off suggests you spray for at least 10 to 15 seconds so the cooling effect has a chance to work. Guess it takes a while to cool down the bolt. Which means a lot of stuff seemed to go all over. Otheres may have had better luck but I will not be getting another can unless I get formal training in how to properly use it ;-{ Arvid > I have a can of CRC Freeze-Off which, as the name implies, freezes > the bolt/nut breaking - in theory - the rust bond. I have not used it so > I do not know how well it works. Any comments? From arvidj at visi.com Mon Dec 17 10:42:42 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:42:42 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight again...... References: <408663.47109.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002a01c840d4$39b84080$0202fea9@behavioral.com> Not exactly "name brand" but I have two from Northern Tool http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_12803_12803 that are several years old and have always worked when I asked them to. Arvid > OK, I have finally had it with HF's cheap air greas > guns > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=219 > I am on about my 5th one, and I pulled it out today > and once again, even with 125 psi, couldn't get it to > spit ANY grease. So, I'm willing to spend a few more > dollars on a good "name brand" gun...,As long as it > WORKS!! So any brand recomendations out there!!?? > TIA > Ed From dmscheidt at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 12:55:17 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:55:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] MIG - CO2 vs Argon In-Reply-To: <003401c840c3$6c7582a0$4101a8c0@CARROOM> References: <003401c840c3$6c7582a0$4101a8c0@CARROOM> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712171155u36dd7371hd6be3fa01d43db4@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 17, 2007 10:42 AM, Bob Nogueira wrote: > I've been using C02 with my MIG as I have only welded steel. My next > project will be in aluminum so I figure I will need to switch to argon. > Questions > Are the fittings for argon and CO2 the same? > Are the Argon and CO2 bottles the same? No. If you're using straight CO2, you likely have a bottle that holds (relatively) low pressure C02 gas, and liquid C02. It'll have a CGA 320 fitting on it. Argon is stored as a high-pressure gas, in a bottle with with CGA 580 fitting. If you're using a combination of C02 and Ar, it's in a high pressure bottle with CGA 580 fittings. Some regulators can be used on both types of equipment, with an appropriate thread adapter. Your gas supplier can advise you on what you need to buy. > My supplier does a bottle exchange for refills, will they generally allow > you to switch from one type of gas to another on a bottle exchange? > And, What is the price difference between Argon and C02? > Again, your gas supplier can advise. I don't think they'll take a C02 bottle in exchange for an ARgon one, though. The price difference on the gas is large, but much of what you're paying for are fixed costs of handling a cylinder, so what they charge you might not vary as much. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Mon Dec 17 13:25:52 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:25:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] WAY OT: Calvin & Hobbs does winter! Message-ID: <4766DB50.1040802@hornesystemstx.com> Since I couldn't get the listserv to accept my included pictures, I put them up on my website, http://www.hornesystemstx.com Look under photos, then Calvin & Hobbs. Maybe someone will take some time off from working on their shop and try some of these. I wish we got some snow down here so I could try out some! Peace, Pat -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From lspector at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 18:29:23 2007 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:29:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Amazing new tool - Tork-Grip Message-ID: <167503c10712171729o75c10441sfe83706450955129@mail.gmail.com> Ran across this "invention" and had to share... http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tork-grip.html The Superleggera hollow ball bearings: http://sheldonbrown.com/lirpa.html and Real MAN saddles: http://sheldonbrown.com/real-man.html are also hilarious! Enjoy! Larry From scott.hall at comcast.net Mon Dec 17 20:35:25 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 03:35:25 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] WAY OT: Calvin & Hobbs does winter! Message-ID: <121820070335.6223.47673FFD0004CB280000184F220075894204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> I did a few like that when I was a kid. and you're missing my favorite--the one with the snowman 'body' on the hood and in front of the car! we did that to my mom when i was about 10--she still has a picture of it somewhere. it's probably amazing I didn't end up in a home somewhere. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Pat Horne > Since I couldn't get the listserv to accept my included pictures, I put > them up on my website, http://www.hornesystemstx.com Look under photos, > then Calvin & Hobbs. From scott.hall at comcast.net Mon Dec 17 20:38:53 2007 From: scott.hall at comcast.net (scott.hall at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 03:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] WAY OT: Calvin & Hobbs does winter! Message-ID: <121820070338.9290.476740CD0001F9D40000244A220075894204040E08D29B9B010C9C@comcast.net> heh. it's the first one at the top. got excited there. miss the snow. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Pat Horne > Since I couldn't get the listserv to accept my included pictures, I put > them up on my website, http://www.hornesystemstx.com Look under photos, > then Calvin & Hobbs. From herby at herbytoys.com Mon Dec 17 21:52:01 2007 From: herby at herbytoys.com (Herby) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:52:01 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] WAY OT: Calvin & Hobbs does winter! In-Reply-To: <4766DB50.1040802@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <001301c84131$bbae3ba0$6601a8c0@HERBYZ> Very *cool* Pat! I have a Power Point show with all of these (and more) that I was using for a screen saver. Of all the C&H themes these were the best. Herby 63 MKII Sprite (Herbytoy - patiently waiting) 62 MKII Sprite (the "resto-mod" driver) 00 Dakota R/T (the new toy) herby at herbytoys.com www.herbytoys.com -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+herby=herbytoys.com at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+herby=herbytoys.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Pat Horne Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:26 PM To: shop-talk list Subject: [Shop-talk] WAY OT: Calvin & Hobbs does winter! Since I couldn't get the listserv to accept my included pictures, I put them up on my website, http://www.hornesystemstx.com Look under photos, then Calvin & Hobbs. Maybe someone will take some time off from working on their shop and try some of these. I wish we got some snow down here so I could try out some! Peace, Pat -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date: 12/17/2007 2:13 PM From lspector at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 07:57:17 2007 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:57:17 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? Message-ID: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> New topic for you- I've got a 10+ year old Husky 1/2" torque wrench. Unlike the new ones available from HD, it was USA made. This past weekend, the locknut inside the handle came loose so it's no longer accurate. It's got a lifetime warranty, so I can bring it back to HD and swap it for a brand new Chinese made version. My question - should I a) send it out to be calibrated at ~$35-40 b) exchange it for a new Chinese one c) trash it and buy a new/better one (and if so, which one?) I use it most frequently for wheel torquing at autocrosses, but I also use it for repair work in my home shop. Thanks for any insight! -Larry From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Dec 18 08:15:00 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:15:00 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004201c84188$c55fd990$0202a8c0@ejrussell> How about b + c ? i.e, get the replacement wrench *and* buy a new one? Two tools gota be better than one! How about one of these...? http://www.sheldonbrown.com:80/tork-grip.html Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Spector" > My question - should I > a) send it out to be calibrated at ~$35-40 > b) exchange it for a new Chinese one > c) buy a new/better one From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Tue Dec 18 08:15:30 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:15:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? In-Reply-To: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> Larry, You can calibrate it yourself. All you need is a torque wrench that is calibrated and a home made adapter. Borrow a wrench and weld 2 sockets together face to face so that the square ends point away from each other. Secure one of the wrench handles so you don't have to hold both, and couple the wrenches together with the handles close to each other. Now, with the help of someone to read the second wrench, pull the free wrench and adjust the setting as needed to get the wrenches to agree. Since you use the wrench at a single torque, or at least several in the same range, calibrate the wrench so that it is most accurate at that torque. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Larry Spector: > New topic for you- > > I've got a 10+ year old Husky 1/2" torque wrench. Unlike the new ones > available from HD, it was USA made. This past weekend, the locknut > inside the handle came loose so it's no longer accurate. It's got a > lifetime warranty, so I can bring it back to HD and swap it for a > brand new Chinese made version. > > My question - should I > a) send it out to be calibrated at ~$35-40 > b) exchange it for a new Chinese one > c) trash it and buy a new/better one (and if so, which one?) > > I use it most frequently for wheel torquing at autocrosses, but I also > use it for repair work in my home shop. > > Thanks for any insight! > > -Larry > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From lspector at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 08:57:19 2007 From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:57:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? In-Reply-To: <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <167503c10712180757w1a4f9e09ye2d336327bc3c050@mail.gmail.com> That's not a bad idea. I'm not sure I want to trade the old one in, and this wouldn't cost me very much. Hmm- maybe I'll buy a new better one for the shop, and use it to calibrate the old one for track use only. Like Eric said- two tools is better than one! Thanks, Larry On Dec 18, 2007 10:15 AM, Pat Horne wrote: > Larry, > > You can calibrate it yourself. All you need is a torque wrench that is > calibrated and a home made adapter. Borrow a wrench and weld 2 sockets > together face to face so that the square ends point away from each > other. Secure one of the wrench handles so you don't have to hold both, > and couple the wrenches together with the handles close to each other. > Now, with the help of someone to read the second wrench, pull the free > wrench and adjust the setting as needed to get the wrenches to agree. > Since you use the wrench at a single torque, or at least several in the > same range, calibrate the wrench so that it is most accurate at that > torque. > > Peace, > Pat From edvs at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 09:23:04 2007 From: edvs at yahoo.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:23:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Harbor Freight again...... In-Reply-To: <002a01c840d4$39b84080$0202fea9@behavioral.com> Message-ID: <771847.38268.qm@web51006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks to all that replied to my "rant" about inferior HF grease guns and offered suggestions. Time to buy myself an early Christmas present. Ed --- Arvid Jedlicka wrote: > Not exactly "name brand" but I have two from > Northern Tool > > http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_12803_12803 > > that are several years old and have always worked > when I asked them to. > > Arvid > > > OK, I have finally had it with HF's cheap air > greas > > guns > > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=219 > > I am on about my 5th one, and I pulled it out > today > > and once again, even with 125 psi, couldn't get it > to > > spit ANY grease. So, I'm willing to spend a few > more > > dollars on a good "name brand" gun...,As long as > it > > WORKS!! So any brand recomendations out there!!?? > > TIA > > Ed > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From arvidj at visi.com Tue Dec 18 09:23:52 2007 From: arvidj at visi.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:23:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <004601c84192$61323490$ef281aac@behavioral.com> Or just buy the appropriate size 8 pt socket. The drive side to fit 'on' one of the wrenches just like normal and the bolt side to fit 'over' the drive on the other wrench as though it were the bolt you were trying to tighten. Certainly not as much fun as the welder but it doesn't damage the chrome on the socket as much. > and weld 2 sockets together face to face so that the square ends point away from each other. From mark at sccaprepared.com Tue Dec 18 09:32:52 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:32:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? In-Reply-To: <004601c84192$61323490$ef281aac@behavioral.com> References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> <004601c84192$61323490$ef281aac@behavioral.com> Message-ID: Howdy, If you're using it primarily for something pretty tolerant like wheel torque, I'd just replace it with the chinese version and call it a day. Then when you leave it at an autox, you won't be particularly upset. :-) Mark From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Tue Dec 18 09:42:30 2007 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:42:30 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? In-Reply-To: <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797B634C0@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Pat Horne wrote: > > You can calibrate it yourself. All you need is a torque > wrench that is calibrated and a home made adapter. I'll second this, and add some more. Get an inexpensive "beam" type of torque wrench. Even cheap ones are very accurate, and they don't go out of calibration. Mount the clicker in a vise/etc. and use the beam type to apply torque. Note the torque at which the clicker "clicks" and adjust until it's correct. As for an adapter, I have a special socket (socket adapter on each end), but you could also use a bolt, two nuts (one as a jamb nut) and two sockets to connect them together as an adapter. Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From mark at bradakis.com Tue Dec 18 09:48:07 2007 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J. Bradakis) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:48:07 -0700 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? In-Reply-To: <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com> <4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <4767F9C7.9090700@bradakis.com> > Borrow a wrench and weld 2 sockets together face to face so > >that the square ends point away from each other. > Actually there is a socket that will fit over a 1/2 drive, so no need to weld two together. Gee, is it the 8 point or 12 point. Most all my tools are at the shop or the other shop, so I can't run out and quickly check. mjb. From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Dec 18 09:51:02 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:51:02 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Torque wrench - repair or replace? References: <167503c10712180657i5e4991degce9995e2654b7a3c@mail.gmail.com><4767E412.7070100@hornesystemstx.com> <4767F9C7.9090700@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <003201c84196$31f92310$0202a8c0@ejrussell> > Most all my tools are at the shop or the other shop... Is that like my brother Darryl and my other brother Darryl? Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell From chad at linuxeg.com Tue Dec 18 19:17:01 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:17:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter Message-ID: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> My 30 year old kitchen counter tops are covered with a Formica type laminate and I need to recover them. Can I install new Formica type laminate over the old laminate or do I need to remove it. If removal is not required what surface preparation is suggested. If removal of the old laminate is necessary what is the best way to do this. I have a 3 foot water damaged section so I figured this is a good time to upgrade from faux butcher block to a more modern faux granite. Thanks in advance for your help. chad From ejrussell at mebtel.net Tue Dec 18 19:27:27 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:27:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <006601c841e6$b8316eb0$0202a8c0@ejrussell> If the substrate is in good condition then a thorough degreasing and sanding (~ 80 grit) would allow you to install a new layer of laminate. You mention a water damaged section. I would suggest building new counter tops. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chadwick E. Labno" > Can I install new Formica type laminate over the old laminate... > I have a 3 foot water damaged section From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 19:39:39 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:39:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712181839p19e2562cyfa7d931d439d15c@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 18, 2007 9:17 PM, Chadwick E. Labno wrote: > My 30 year old kitchen counter tops are covered with a Formica type laminate > and I need to recover them. Can I install new Formica type laminate over > the old > laminate or do I need to remove it. If removal is not required what > surface preparation > is suggested. If removal of the old laminate is necessary what is the > best way to do this. > I have a 3 foot water damaged section so I figured this is a good time > to upgrade from > faux butcher block to a more modern faux granite. Thanks in advance for > your help. It's possible to put laminate on top of existing laminate. Unless the existing laminate is in perfect shape, you're very likely to end up with a non-flat surface. If the substrate is damaged -- you mention water damage -- it'll have to be fixed first. That's usually easiest to do by replacing it. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From chad at linuxeg.com Tue Dec 18 19:42:13 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:42:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <006601c841e6$b8316eb0$0202a8c0@ejrussell> References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> <006601c841e6$b8316eb0$0202a8c0@ejrussell> Message-ID: <47688505.9040101@linuxeg.com> The water damaged section is the splash board - if that's the correct term - which I am replacing. The counter top - horizontal part - is solid. Looks like I'll do some sanding tomorrow. Thanks, Chad Eric J Russell wrote: >If the substrate is in good condition then a thorough degreasing and >sanding (~ 80 grit) would allow you to install a new layer of >laminate. > >You mention a water damaged section. I would suggest building new >counter tops. > >Eric Russell >Mebane, NC >http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chadwick E. Labno" > > > > >> Can I install new Formica type laminate over the old laminate... >> >> > > > >>I have a 3 foot water damaged section >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Dec 18 19:56:05 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:56:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <128230.56895.qm@web612.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If the old laminate surface is really smooth and undamaged and you really want to re-surface it, I suggest cleaning it really well before sanding it. It is probably infused with 30 years of grease and other cooking residue. Doug --- "Chadwick E. Labno" wrote: > My 30 year old kitchen counter tops are covered with > a Formica type laminate > and I need to recover them. Can I install new > Formica type laminate over > the old > laminate or do I need to remove it. If removal is > not required what > surface preparation > is suggested. From doug at dougbraun.com Tue Dec 18 20:03:45 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:03:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] End-of-season off-topic: auto-related humor Message-ID: <124771.83570.qm@web609.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is something funny: the lyrics of the first verse of the song "My Hooptie" by Sir Mix-a-Lot. Also check urbandictionary.com for some amusing (G-rated) definitions of "hooptie". My hooptie rollin', tailpipe draggin' Heat don't work an' my girl keeps naggin' Six-nine Buick, deuce keeps rollin' One hubcap 'cause three got stolen Bumper shook loose, chrome keeps scrapin' Mis-matched tires, and my white walls flakin' Hit mickey-d's, Maharaji starts to bug He ate a quarter-pounder, threw the pickles on my rug Runnin', movin' tabs expired Girlies tryin' to dis 'n say my car looks tired Hit my brakes, out slid skittles Tinted back window with a bubble in the middle Who's car is it? Posse won't say We all play it off when you look our way Rollin' four deep, tires smoke up the block Gotta roll this bucket, 'cause my Benz is in the shop From wmc_st at xxiii.com Tue Dec 18 20:06:41 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <47688AC1.2080502@xxiii.com> Chadwick E. Labno wrote: > My 30 year old kitchen counter tops are covered with a Formica type laminate > and I need to recover them. Can I install new Formica type laminate over > the old Have you priced new ones? Laminate isn't terribly expensive; well.. probably less than $10 a linear foot for std 2' depth with built in back splash. Unless you value you labor $zero/hour I think it would be hard to justify the hassle. -Wayne From chad at linuxeg.com Tue Dec 18 20:59:20 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:59:20 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <47688AC1.2080502@xxiii.com> References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> <47688AC1.2080502@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <47689718.1040002@linuxeg.com> I think you are on to something. Looks like the top is attached with around a dozen dry wall screws and, I'd have to remove the sink anyway. On the tops I was looking at the, splash board was about 2 inched shorter in height then the existing one which would, possibly, require some dry wall work but over all the amount of work would be considerable less. Tomorrow I am going to check some prices but I think this is the solution, although I was looking forward to buying a new router (one of the plunge type) and some carbide bits. Thanks, chad Wayne wrote: >Chadwick E. Labno wrote: > > >>My 30 year old kitchen counter tops are covered with a Formica type laminate >>and I need to recover them. Can I install new Formica type laminate over >>the old >> >> > >Have you priced new ones? Laminate isn't terribly expensive; well.. >probably less than $10 a linear foot for std 2' depth with built in back >splash. Unless you value you labor $zero/hour I think it would be hard >to justify the hassle. > > -Wayne >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as chad at linuxeg.com > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive From jblair1948 at cox.net Wed Dec 19 05:19:23 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:19:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071219071923.00b47998@pop.east.cox.net> At 09:17 PM 12/18/2007 -0500, Chadwick E. Labno wrote: >My 30 year old kitchen counter tops are covered with a Formica type laminate >and I need to recover them. Can I install new Formica type laminate over >the old laminate or do I need to remove it.... Chad, One thing you didn't mention, what is the base made of. My place is about 30 yrs old and the base for the counter tops is press board. So as others have suggested, it definately, isn't worth trying to replace the laminate. One other thing. If you get a new counter top, and it's base IS press/chip board, you might want to think about sealing it with something like paint, varnish, etc. The moisture from my dishwasher, and the water from the sink has taken it toll on the chip board. It was not sealed, and has swollen and flaked. John >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as jblair1948 at cox.net > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive > John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From eric at megageek.com Wed Dec 19 08:04:05 2007 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:04:05 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification Message-ID: OK, for some reason I seem to have a knack for killing rechargable batteries. I wanted to see if I can get some guidance here on what I'm doing wrong. The 2 types of batteries are Ni-cad dewalt 18v and my Lithium ion 3.7v for my digital camera. How I use them... Dewalt. I leave one battery in the tool and one on the charger. I use the battery until it should the first sign of weakening. Then I swap batteries. I never run them down after they start to weaken. Camera. I charge the batteries fully, then leave them ouside of the camera. I put one in the camera and us it for a dive (this is for an underwater dive camera.) after about an hour of one and offs of the camera and a bunch of pics, I switch the batteries topside. Then I charge them both before I store them. (I normally charge them right before I use them to "top them off" also. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong. Thanks! Moose "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." Tori Amos From ejrussell at mebtel.net Wed Dec 19 08:16:44 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 03:16:44 -1200 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification Message-ID: <476935dc.2e2.6de3.816357834@ml2.myemail.com> Look closely at the battery packs. Does it say "LUCAS" anywhere...? Eric Russell Mebane, NC > OK, for some reason I seem to have a knack for killing > rechargable batteries. > Moose Login from home, work, school. Anywhere! From doug at dougbraun.com Wed Dec 19 08:34:37 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:34:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <652028.50448.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maybe it's not a good idea to leave the nicads in the charger all the time? My Craftsman 1-hour charger claimed it would automatically switch to a trickle-charge mode when the battery was fully charged, but whenever I removed a battery from it several days after inserting it, it would be a little bit warm. I think the "trickle" can be more than is really needed. As for Lithium camera, cellphone, laptop, etc. batteries, I can't say. Where seems to be a lot of misinformation out there. For example, I see a lot of cheap car chargers that claim "contains IC chip to prevent overcharging". But these chargers are supposed to be simple constant-voltage DC power supplies, and all the actual charge-regulating circuitry is built into the phone itself! I've had an expensive laptop batteries die after a couple of years, and I think it was because the laptop was always on (and connected to the charger), and the battery got too hot simply from being next to all the heat-producing components. I hope that someday they can actually make rechargeable batteries that work as well as they are claimed to! Can you imagine buying an electric car with $50,000 of Li cell batteries, only to find that they are all shot after two years? I have read analyses of electric cars that showed that even for ordinary lead-acid deep-cycle batteries, the battery replacement cost will exceed the cost of the electricity consumed (and more than yo would have paid for gasoline a few years ago). Doug --- eric at megageek.com wrote: > OK, for some reason I seem to have a knack for > killing rechargable > batteries. I wanted to see if I can get some > guidance here on what I'm > doing wrong. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 08:34:40 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:34:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2400a5d40712190734p3e6c2243w3dd91d3664eaf552@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 19, 2007 10:04 AM, wrote: > Camera. I charge the batteries fully, then leave them ouside of the > camera. I put one in the camera and us it for a dive (this is for an > underwater dive camera.) after about an hour of one and offs of the camera > and a bunch of pics, I switch the batteries topside. Then I charge them > both before I store them. (I normally charge them right before I use them > to "top them off" also. Lithium ion batteries have a short lifetime. They last about 24 months from the date of manufacture. That's true if they're used, or not. Beyond that, there are some things that will help them. you say this is a dive camera. How long are you going between using it? If it's more than a week or so, try and store the batteries with about 33% or 40% charge. You may not be able to figure that out from the camera, though. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Wed Dec 19 14:04:43 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:04:43 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4769876B.7020000@hornesystemstx.com> Moose, I think you are doing pretty much what you should do with the DeWalt batteries. They don't like deep discharge. I usually remove my batteries from the charger after about 24 hrs. This gives them time to charge fully, and run through the "conditioning" cycle that my charger says it does. I've absent mindedly left batteries in the charger longer, with the charger not plugged in and the batteries are totally discharged in a couple of days. I try to not leave them on charge longer than 24 hours though. I have been getting 4 or 5 years out of my batteries. Peace, Pat Thusly spake eric at megageek.com: > OK, for some reason I seem to have a knack for killing rechargable > batteries. I wanted to see if I can get some guidance here on what I'm > doing wrong. > > The 2 types of batteries are Ni-cad dewalt 18v and my Lithium ion 3.7v for > my digital camera. > > How I use them... > > Dewalt. I leave one battery in the tool and one on the charger. I use the > battery until it should the first sign of weakening. Then I swap > batteries. I never run them down after they start to weaken. > > Camera. I charge the batteries fully, then leave them ouside of the > camera. I put one in the camera and us it for a dive (this is for an > underwater dive camera.) after about an hour of one and offs of the camera > and a bunch of pics, I switch the batteries topside. Then I charge them > both before I store them. (I normally charge them right before I use them > to "top them off" also. > > Please let me know what I'm doing wrong. Thanks! > > > > Moose > > "We all know we're dying, And there's no sign of a parachute." > Tori Amos > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From salbrigh at nycap.rr.com Wed Dec 19 14:16:16 2007 From: salbrigh at nycap.rr.com (Skip Albright) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:16:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] temp controlled light switch In-Reply-To: <4769876B.7020000@hornesystemstx.com> References: <4769876B.7020000@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> My neighbor is going south for the winter and wants a switch that will light a lamp when (if) the house falls below a set temp like 50F. any ideas where to find one? thanks skip From jniolon at bham.rr.com Wed Dec 19 14:18:12 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:18:12 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] temp controlled light switch In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> References: <4769876B.7020000@hornesystemstx.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: go to home depot and buy a 120 volt thermostat and wire it up ! john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Albright" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:16 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] temp controlled light switch > My neighbor is going south for the winter and wants a switch that > will light a lamp when (if) the house falls below a set temp like 50F. > > any ideas where to find one? > > thanks > > skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From cak at dimebank.com Wed Dec 19 14:25:06 2007 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:25:06 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] temp controlled light switch In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> References: <4769876B.7020000@hornesystemstx.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <47698C32.1090102@dimebank.com> Skip Albright wrote: > My neighbor is going south for the winter and wants a switch that > will light a lamp when (if) the house falls below a set temp like 50F. You can get 120V thermostats and hardwire them; they fit into a standard outlet box. That's the most flexible solution. There are gizmos that plug into a wall socket and have a thermo switch in them, typically set for something like 38 degrees to keep things from freezing. Here's one: http://www.morelectric.com/pipe.htm This one's cheaper: http://www.petvetsupply.com/equmfrm022.html This one's a lot more flexible: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E7NYY8/ref=pd_cp_hi_1?pf_rd_p=277661601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0000DGA8P&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=05B7HXZTNPKDJNNSGWVE From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Wed Dec 19 14:27:40 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:27:40 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] temp controlled light switch In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> References: <4769876B.7020000@hornesystemstx.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <47698CCC.30306@hornesystemstx.com> Skip, It depends. Is the purpose of the light coming on so that a neighbor will know to turn the heat on, or to supply heat to something that is low temperature sensitive, or what? I've seen temperature controllers intended for green house propagation mats that will handle a fairly heavy load, but I don't know about the temperature range. I just googled 'thermostatic switch Dayton" and got this url http://www.drillspot.com/products/145885/Dayton_ET5D6S_Line_Voltage_Thermostat It may do what you need. There are plenty of thermostatic temperature switches that plug into an outlet that have a socket on it to plug something else into. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Skip Albright: > My neighbor is going south for the winter and wants a switch that > will light a lamp when (if) the house falls below a set temp like 50F. > > any ideas where to find one? > > thanks > > skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Dec 19 14:52:50 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:52:50 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] temp controlled light switch In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> References: <4769876B.7020000@hornesystemstx.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20071219161443.02a27bc8@pop.nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <027601c84289$7ffeb1d0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > My neighbor is going south for the winter and wants a switch that > will light a lamp when (if) the house falls below a set temp like 50F. You mean like this ? http://tinyurl.com/2hps7u Another thought, if this is supposed to be a backup plan in case the main heat fails or whatever, might be a mechanical thermostat (from HD or wherever) combined with a car battery and 12V lamp. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Dec 19 16:17:21 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:17:21 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: <652028.50448.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <652028.50448.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <028f01c84295$4eda2a60$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > I think the "trickle" can be more than is really > needed. Right. "Trickle charge" is bad news for any kind of sealed battery. The optimum cycle for maximum life varies with the cell in question, but usually involves some sort of "fall back" where a charging cycle is completed with just a bit of overcharge (to equalize cells, etc.) and then charging stops entirely until the cell self-discharges by some amount. > For example, I see a lot of > cheap car chargers that claim "contains IC chip to > prevent overcharging". But these chargers are > supposed to be simple constant-voltage DC power > supplies, I'm not sure I see the contradiction there. An IC regulator to say, 5 volts, seems to fit both descriptions. But I've had my cell phone charger apart, and I do believe there are more smarts than that in the charger. The phone plays a role too, I'm certain; so maybe it's something like a programmable inverter in the cord that gets controlled by the phone. > I hope that someday they can actually make > rechargeable batteries that work as well as they are > claimed to! It's a marketeer's job to stretch the truth as far as possible ... while you're at it, might as well wish for world peace ! > I have read analyses of electric cars that showed that > even for ordinary lead-acid deep-cycle batteries, the > battery replacement cost will exceed the cost of the > electricity consumed (and more than yo would have paid > for gasoline a few years ago). Which is exactly the problem ! There has been a lot of R&D work done in the last few decades trying to solve that issue (which is exactly why there are so many different battery chemistries on the market today); but they aren't quite there yet, IMO. Randall From hillman at planet-torque.com Wed Dec 19 21:08:21 2007 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:08:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> Message-ID: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> I'm sort-of shopping for my wife's next car, and have recently learned that two of the would-be candidates feature this insane method of wheel attachment called the 'lug bolt'. Now, I had a Alfa years ago that used these, and the day I sold it, I vowed never again to be stupid enough to buy such a car. Actually, I think I made that vow every damn I had to put a wheel on that car, but it was Italian, so you expected some hassle. But, the choices are pretty slim apart from these two cars... so can anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts are one of the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is their purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and ruin it completely? Are they the result of a bunch of German engineers getting way too drunk on dark beer at a Christmas party, and betting each other to see who could come up with the worst idea? Thanks in advance. -- David Hillman From strovato at optonline.net Wed Dec 19 21:13:43 2007 From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:13:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> So, what's the big problem with these that would make you react so strongly? At 11:08 PM 12/19/2007, David Hillman wrote: > I'm sort-of shopping for my wife's next car, and have recently learned >that two of the would-be candidates feature this insane method of wheel >attachment called the 'lug bolt'. From wmc_st at xxiii.com Wed Dec 19 21:18:33 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:18:33 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <4769ED19.20902@xxiii.com> David Hillman wrote: > anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts are one of > the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is their > purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and ruin it No idea "why". A lady co-worker just bought a [BMW] Mini Cooper for a "winter car" after I informed her they were FWD. But it came with summer-only run-flats. So she (we) just bought a winter wheel & tire package from the good folks at TireRack.com I went to mount them yesterday, and discovered it has bolts rather than studs. They make wheel changes a real PITA. I jacked the car so the tire was just *barely* off the ground and was able to pull off the stock, and "hang" the new on the hub, then with difficulty hold 40 lbs of mass against the hub while indexing it to find the bolt holes. F*****g stupid! If there's a good explanation for this, I'd love to hear it. But ultimately, it wasn't all that hard to mount them. They do call for 103 ft/lbs torque, which is way higher than I'm accustomed to on my Asian Branded wheel stud equipped vehicles. -Wayne From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Dec 19 21:41:15 2007 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:41:15 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <4769F26B.2090804@comcast.net> Just a SWAG: Maybe the bolts are torque-to-yield, or close to it, and can/should be replaced fairly often (certainly easier than replacing studs). I always wondered about studs that are torqued/stretched many times, yet are rarely if ever replaced. bs David Hillman wrote: > I'm sort-of shopping for my wife's next car, and have recently learned > that two of the would-be candidates feature this insane method of wheel > attachment called the 'lug bolt'. Now, I had a Alfa years ago that used > these, and the day I sold it, I vowed never again to be stupid enough to > buy such a car. Actually, I think I made that vow every damn I had to > put a wheel on that car, but it was Italian, so you expected some hassle. > > But, the choices are pretty slim apart from these two cars... so can > anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts are one of > the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is their > purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and ruin it > completely? Are they the result of a bunch of German engineers getting > way too drunk on dark beer at a Christmas party, and betting each other to > see who could come up with the worst idea? > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > > -- *************************************************************** Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net '67 Austin-Healey 3000 '56 Austin-Healey 100M *************************************************************** From bspidell at comcast.net Wed Dec 19 21:43:14 2007 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:43:14 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <4769F2E2.10701@comcast.net> Came across this: http://www.boltscience.com/pages/failure4.htm bs David Hillman wrote: > I'm sort-of shopping for my wife's next car, and have recently learned > that two of the would-be candidates feature this insane method of wheel > attachment called the 'lug bolt'. Now, I had a Alfa years ago that used > these, and the day I sold it, I vowed never again to be stupid enough to > buy such a car. Actually, I think I made that vow every damn I had to > put a wheel on that car, but it was Italian, so you expected some hassle. > > But, the choices are pretty slim apart from these two cars... so can > anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts are one of > the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is their > purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and ruin it > completely? Are they the result of a bunch of German engineers getting > way too drunk on dark beer at a Christmas party, and betting each other to > see who could come up with the worst idea? > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > > -- *************************************************************** Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net '67 Austin-Healey 3000 '56 Austin-Healey 100M *************************************************************** From jibjib at att.net Wed Dec 19 21:54:29 2007 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:54:29 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <4769F2E2.10701@comcast.net> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <4769F2E2.10701@comcast.net> Message-ID: <009601c842c4$68679060$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> My Volvo XC90, with it's massive wheels take bolts. Once you change them a few times you get the hang of it and it's not bad. I've debated taking a matching bolt and grinding down the head end to make a tapered pin. I could then screw the tool into the highest threaded hole in the hub and just hang the wheel on it temporarily. Just a thought, Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bob Spidell Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:43 PM To: David Hillman Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? Came across this: http://www.boltscience.com/pages/failure4.htm bs David Hillman wrote: > I'm sort-of shopping for my wife's next car, and have recently > learned that two of the would-be candidates feature this insane method > of wheel attachment called the 'lug bolt'. Now, I had a Alfa years > ago that used these, and the day I sold it, I vowed never again to be > stupid enough to buy such a car. Actually, I think I made that vow > every damn I had to put a wheel on that car, but it was Italian, so you expected some hassle. > > But, the choices are pretty slim apart from these two cars... so > can anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts > are one of the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? > What is their purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and > ruin it completely? Are they the result of a bunch of German > engineers getting way too drunk on dark beer at a Christmas party, and > betting each other to see who could come up with the worst idea? > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > > -- *************************************************************** Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net '67 Austin-Healey 3000 '56 Austin-Healey 100M *************************************************************** You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From scottmryan at netzero.net Wed Dec 19 22:05:14 2007 From: scottmryan at netzero.net (scottmryan) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:05:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] ABS fuse (was: ...Suburban issues) References: <121620070223.22058.47648C3F000E2D540000562A22007636929D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <005201c842c6$55c94230$51aa17d1@smrinsp1100> Hmmm, I would guess that chrysler has been sued for such a system? I have to say on mine I had the service manual, and had the ABS computer loose, and was also testing it with the engine running in gear and all 4 wheels off the ground, so I did not expect to have any problems with it. (there are also 3 fuses on the audi ABS system; one for the abs computer, one for the solinoids, and one for the motor that can apply the brakes for traction control; I have the abs computer fuse pulled) Saturn does do something similar (to chrysler) that's really stupid on thier automatics, the solinoids turn off the gears when they turn on. (can have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th on at the same time; if the solinoid fuses blow while moving, or the engine/trans computer resets while moving (this happened to us; I'm amazed it didn't snap off gear teeth) two or more gears can engage at the same time. (trans and wheels stop moving!)) Listen to Phil, check out your abs system before pulling fuses! Scott R > From: ejrussell at mebtel.net >> Seems odd. What happens if one is driving and the fuse >> blows? No brakes or abnormal brakes? I can't believe anyone >> woulr engineer such a system. From: pethier at comcast.net > I think that Chrysler not only woulr, but did. There was a considerable > discussion of this by the techies in our club at the time. From bobkegel at seanet.com Wed Dec 19 22:20:17 2007 From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:20:17 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <000001c842c8$0568dd30$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> http://www.ultimategarage.com/wheelhgr.html Bob Kegel Aberdeen, WA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 22:26:59 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:26:59 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <000001c842c8$0568dd30$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> References: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <000001c842c8$0568dd30$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712192126o20bbd999sf8d7f6467becab59@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 20, 2007 12:20 AM, Bob Kegel wrote: > http://www.ultimategarage.com/wheelhgr.html > > Bob Kegel > Aberdeen, WA > $25 a pop is a bit steep! I think I paid 2 bucks a piece for the bolts I made mine out of, plus a couple minutes work to cut the heads off, slot them, and round them off. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jibjib at att.net Wed Dec 19 23:27:09 2007 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:27:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <000001c842c8$0568dd30$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> References: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <000001c842c8$0568dd30$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> Message-ID: <00eb01c842d1$5a651070$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> I like my $5 bolt and a few minutes with a grinder idea, better than a $25 store bought pin. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bob Kegel Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 9:20 PM To: 'David Hillman'; shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? http://www.ultimategarage.com/wheelhgr.html Bob Kegel Aberdeen, WA You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From mikey at b2systems.com Wed Dec 19 23:39:43 2007 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:39:43 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071219223854.07b68e68@b2systems.com> At 08:13 PM 12/19/2007, Steven Trovato wrote: >So, what's the big problem with these that would make you react so strongly? well everyone knows a real car has knock-offs :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com ********************************************************************** If you want to learn more about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car, then take a look at http://www.singercars.com/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 20 03:40:50 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 05:40:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <005901c842f4$ca30fa40$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> I've had vehicles with lug bolts, never found it to be that big a deal. With the cars, just sit on the ground and use my two feet to hold the wheel up and position it. No problem. With the tractors, obviously I couldn't do that. But with the tractor you weren't picking those wheels up anyways, especially if they were loaded with many hundreds of pounds of calcium chloride. There are conversions on the market to install a stud in the bolt hole so you can use a nut. No experience with them myself. As to why bolts instead of studs, it's a long running argument in engineering circles. Bolts are stronger than studs and nuts, which is why extremely high stressed applications will use bolts, typically grade 8 or above. On a car, it's all superfluous. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hillman" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:08 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? >.... so can anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug >bolts are one of > the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is their > purpose, other than > to take a perfectly good design and ruin it completely? From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Thu Dec 20 07:14:17 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:14:17 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> My guess is that is just that many fewer parts needed to put the car together, since the holes are tapped into the hub. Save $0.002 per car and you make a bunch of $$ overall. Peace, Pat Thusly spake David Hillman: > I'm sort-of shopping for my wife's next car, and have recently learned > that two of the would-be candidates feature this insane method of wheel > attachment called the 'lug bolt'. Now, I had a Alfa years ago that used > these, and the day I sold it, I vowed never again to be stupid enough to > buy such a car. Actually, I think I made that vow every damn I had to > put a wheel on that car, but it was Italian, so you expected some hassle. > > But, the choices are pretty slim apart from these two cars... so can > anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts are one of > the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is their > purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and ruin it > completely? Are they the result of a bunch of German engineers getting > way too drunk on dark beer at a Christmas party, and betting each other to > see who could come up with the worst idea? > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > David Hillman > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Dec 20 08:53:16 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:53:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, David Hillman wrote: > I'm sort-of shopping for my wife's next car, and have recently > learned that two of the would-be candidates feature this insane method > of wheel attachment called the 'lug bolt'. Now, I had a Alfa years ago > that used these, and the day I sold it, I vowed never again to be stupid > enough to buy such a car. Actually, I think I made that vow every damn > I had to put a wheel on that car, but it was Italian, so you expected > some hassle. > > But, the choices are pretty slim apart from these two cars... so can > anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts are one > of the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is > their purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and ruin it > completely? Are they the result of a bunch of German engineers getting > way too drunk on dark beer at a Christmas party, and betting each other > to see who could come up with the worst idea? I'm no particular fan of lug bolts, but its pretty easy to convert to standard studs/nuts. I wouldn't let that stop me from buying a car I wanted otherwise. The only advantage I can think of with lug bolts is that you just need to match the lug bolts with the wheel, and they'll always be the right length. With studs/nuts, its possible that you'll need to change the studs for longer/shorter ones to make things fit well. Of course, that wouldn't seem to matter to an OEM, where they presumably have a lot of control over the wheels. Mark From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Dec 20 08:56:03 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:56:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Howdy, On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Steven Trovato wrote: > So, what's the big problem with these that would make you react so > strongly? Changing tires, like you'd do a lot at an autox, is a PITA since the wheel easily falls to the ground instead of being held generally in place by the studs. Plus its a bit harder to line up the wheel holes & the hub holes. Having said that, the hubcentric wheels for our old e36 bmw (which uses lug bolts in stock form) weren't too horrible... You lift the wheel up into place and hold a bit of inward pressure on it so that it won't fall off the hub lip, then rotate it around either way to get the holes to line up. Not as easy as studs though. Mark From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Dec 20 09:34:43 2007 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:34:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Steven Trovato wrote: > So, what's the big problem with these that would make you react so strongly? It's just a bad design. And it's a bad design that someone went through the trouble of coming up with, to replace a better design. For example, let's say that someone came out with a new design for a computer keyboard, but for no reason at all, they made it so it only works while held upside down. So, in order to type, you have hold the thing over your head with one hand, and type with the other. Eventually, the aftermarket would probably come out with a $25 bolt you could use to mount the keyboard over your head so you can type with both hands, but it's still a completely stupid design. That's what someone did with lug bolts. -- David Hillman From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Dec 20 09:44:34 2007 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:44:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> Message-ID: <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Pat Horne wrote: > My guess is that is just that many fewer parts needed to put the car > together, since the holes are tapped into the hub. Save $0.002 per car and > you make a bunch of $$ overall. Do you? Even on something like my F150, the best selling vehicle in the country at around 1M units annually, $0.002 adds up to a whopping $2,000 annual savings. That's not enough to pay for someone to come up with the idea, nevermind the engineering and tooling. And most of the cars with bolts are sold in vastly smaller volumes than that. It cannot be cheaper overall. -- David Hillman From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Dec 20 09:45:09 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:45:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, David Hillman wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Steven Trovato wrote: >> So, what's the big problem with these that would make you react so strongly? > > It's just a bad design. And it's a bad design that someone went > through the trouble of coming up with, to replace a better design. > > For example, let's say that someone came out with a new design for a > computer keyboard, but for no reason at all, they made it so it only > works while held upside down. So, in order to type, you have hold the > thing over your head with one hand, and type with the other. > Eventually, the aftermarket would probably come out with a $25 bolt you > could use to mount the keyboard over your head so you can type with both > hands, but it's still a completely stupid design. > > That's what someone did with lug bolts. I think its pretty rare that a car company actually designs something poorly, once you understand the motivations behind stuff. As you say, lug studs have been around forever, so if they're using lug bolts, they have a reason. That reason may not make sense to _you_, but its certainly there. One other possible advantage of lug bolts... I bet it makes fabrication/assembly cheaper. You just need to thread the holes in the hub flange (which can probably be done at the same time as other machining) vs. press in studs (which almost certainly can't). Most folks don't change their wheels very often... Even if you only change wheels/tires for winter vs. summer you're doing it more often than the average car owner. If I were a car maker with that kinda target market, I'd certainly save money on production at the cost of slightly more hassle when changing wheels. Mark From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 20 09:56:41 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (Nolan) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:56:41 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny. cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <004c01c84329$4bc68280$8f29c40a@mde.state.md.us> > It's just a bad design. And it's a bad design that someone went > through the trouble of coming up with, to replace a better design. Nope. Wheel bolts predate the later use of a stud and nut. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 09:57:46 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:57:46 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712200857j57abd504p581c4172b04e25bd@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 20, 2007 11:45 AM, Mark Andy wrote: > Howdy, > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, David Hillman wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Steven Trovato wrote: > >> So, what's the big problem with these that would make you react so strongly? > > > > It's just a bad design. And it's a bad design that someone went > > through the trouble of coming up with, to replace a better design. > > > > For example, let's say that someone came out with a new design for a > > computer keyboard, but for no reason at all, they made it so it only > > works while held upside down. So, in order to type, you have hold the > > thing over your head with one hand, and type with the other. > > Eventually, the aftermarket would probably come out with a $25 bolt you > > could use to mount the keyboard over your head so you can type with both > > hands, but it's still a completely stupid design. > > > > That's what someone did with lug bolts. > > I think its pretty rare that a car company actually designs something > poorly, once you understand the motivations behind stuff. As you say, > lug studs have been around forever, so if they're using lug bolts, they > have a reason. > > That reason may not make sense to _you_, but its certainly there. > The reason they do this is that it makes the wheels concentric to the wheel bearing. That means less wear on the bearing, less vibration at speed, better braking and steering performance. There's a reason the marques using bolts are Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, etc, and not Ford, Chevrolet, and Toyota. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jem at milleredp.com Thu Dec 20 10:17:51 2007 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:17:51 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <476AA3BF.6080505@milleredp.com> > Do you? Even on something like my F150, the best selling vehicle in > the country at around 1M units annually, $0.002 adds up to a whopping > $2,000 annual savings. That's not enough to pay for someone to come up > with the idea, nevermind the engineering and tooling. > > And most of the cars with bolts are sold in vastly smaller volumes than > that. It cannot be cheaper overall. Bolts are easier to replace if the threads are damaged. And it's easier to swap back and forth between wheels of different hub thicknesses. The downside is that if the threads are damaged IN THE HUB it's another story. Really, it's a cultural thing - Detroit uses studs, Europe uses bolts, etc. As for volume, BMW is now close to a million 3-series a year between Germany and South Africa, IIRC, and nearly 300K 5ers come out of Dingolfing. John. From jem at milleredp.com Thu Dec 20 10:23:07 2007 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:23:07 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <476AA4FB.6090208@milleredp.com> > poorly, once you understand the motivations behind stuff. As you say, > lug studs have been around forever, so if they're using lug bolts, they > have a reason. Nope, Europe's always been bolt-country, the US has long been stud-country. > One other possible advantage of lug bolts... I bet it makes > fabrication/assembly cheaper. You just need to thread the holes in the > hub flange (which can probably be done at the same time as other > machining) vs. press in studs (which almost certainly can't). You could argue the other way 'round too, a thread-cutting operation is comparatively expensive compared to boring a hole. It's really a non-issue there, because once you add up the whole parts count and cost the automaker is just telling the supplier "We want this, done this way, and we'll pay this much" and the hub comes through the door either threaded or with studs in it. > Most folks don't change their wheels very often... Even if you only change > wheels/tires for winter vs. summer you're doing it more often than the > average car owner. Maybe true in the US, but seasonal wheel swaps are probably more common elsewhere. John. From parkanzky at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 11:11:22 2007 From: parkanzky at gmail.com (Paul Parkanzky) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:11:22 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <476AA4FB.6090208@milleredp.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> <476AA4FB.6090208@milleredp.com> Message-ID: My Audis have come with a hanger to put in the top hole to hang the wheel on while you change it, but I never use it. I have a VW, Audi, and Lotus and have never begrudged the bolt. Studs are a tiny bit more convenient, but once you get the hang of it I don't think the studs slow you down much at all... -Paul On Dec 20, 2007 12:23 PM, John Miller wrote: > > poorly, once you understand the motivations behind stuff. As you say, > > lug studs have been around forever, so if they're using lug bolts, they > > have a reason. > > Nope, Europe's always been bolt-country, the US has long been > stud-country. > > > One other possible advantage of lug bolts... I bet it makes > > fabrication/assembly cheaper. You just need to thread the holes in the > > hub flange (which can probably be done at the same time as other > > machining) vs. press in studs (which almost certainly can't). > > You could argue the other way 'round too, a thread-cutting operation is > comparatively expensive compared to boring a hole. > > It's really a non-issue there, because once you add up the whole parts > count and cost the automaker is just telling the supplier "We want this, > done this way, and we'll pay this much" and the hub comes through the > door either threaded or with studs in it. > > > Most folks don't change their wheels very often... Even if you only > change > > wheels/tires for winter vs. summer you're doing it more often than the > > average car owner. > > Maybe true in the US, but seasonal wheel swaps are probably more common > elsewhere. > > John. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as parkanzky at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Dec 20 11:16:39 2007 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:16:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40712200857j57abd504p581c4172b04e25bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> <2400a5d40712200857j57abd504p581c4172b04e25bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071220130620.C52923@itonami.pair.com> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, David Scheidt wrote: > The reason they do this is that it makes the wheels concentric to the > wheel bearing. That means less wear on the bearing, less vibration at > speed, better braking and steering performance. There's a reason the > marques using bolts are Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, etc, > and not Ford, Chevrolet, and Toyota. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I don't buy the "it's cheaper" argument for the same reason... look at the users. However, I also don't understand how a lug bolt with a 60* seat does anything different wrt positioning the wheel than a nut with a 60* seat on a stud does. -- David Hillman From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Dec 20 11:23:25 2007 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:23:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <476AA3BF.6080505@milleredp.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> <476AA3BF.6080505@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <20071220131830.D52923@itonami.pair.com> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, John Miller wrote: > Bolts are easier to replace if the threads are damaged. And it's easier > to swap back and forth between wheels of different hub thicknesses. The > downside is that if the threads are damaged IN THE HUB it's another story. Another of the many problems with bolts. If the threads on the bolt are damaged, the ones in the hub probably are too. OTOH, replacing a stud is a 2 minute job on any car well-enough designed to have a gap in the back for the stud to exit. Turn the hub to line up with the gap, whack with hammer, watch old stud skitter across garage floor, pull in new stud, done. It took days for the mechanic who broke-off a lug bolt in the hub of my Alfa to fix that mess. -- David Hillman From chad at linuxeg.com Thu Dec 20 11:24:58 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:24:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40712200857j57abd504p581c4172b04e25bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> <2400a5d40712200857j57abd504p581c4172b04e25bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <476AB37A.1@linuxeg.com> Chrysler used bolts in the 1950's, rlft hand on one side, right hand on the other. There was an alignment pin and corresponding hole in the wheel - it really didn't help. chad >The reason they do this is that it makes the wheels concentric to the >wheel bearing. That means less wear on the bearing, less vibration at >speed, better braking and steering performance. There's a reason the >marques using bolts are Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, etc, >and not Ford, Chevrolet, and Toyota. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Dec 20 11:27:37 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:27:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <034101c84335$ff3b8e80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Do you? Even on something like my F150, the best selling > vehicle in > the country at around 1M units annually, $0.002 adds up to a whopping > $2,000 annual savings. That's not enough to pay for someone > to come up > with the idea, nevermind the engineering and tooling. All you have to do is multiply that by how long the F150 has been produced, and you have plenty of money to pay an engineer to come up with the idea. And since it would have been done before the tooling was made, there are no retooling costs. One of my friends did some work for Ford a few years back, and complained bitterly about being sent back to the drawing board, because they felt he could shave $.02 off the unit cost by redesigning for cheaper components. And it wasn't for anything nearly as popular as an F150. Randall From jem at milleredp.com Thu Dec 20 11:33:44 2007 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:33:44 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <476AB588.6050200@milleredp.com> > Having said that, the hubcentric wheels for our old e36 bmw (which uses > lug bolts in stock form) weren't too horrible... You lift the wheel up > into place and hold a bit of inward pressure on it so that it won't fall > off the hub lip, then rotate it around either way to get the holes to line > up. I got tired enough of hefting around the 275/35-18 tires and wheels on my M5 that I put in a stud kit. The nicest BMW stud kit I ran across was the one that Bimmerworld has ARP make for them. Nice pilot-nosed studs so the nut will thread easily. Of course they stick out a bit, but... John. From jem at milleredp.com Thu Dec 20 11:34:27 2007 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:34:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <034101c84335$ff3b8e80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> <034101c84335$ff3b8e80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <476AB5B3.7010505@milleredp.com> > One of my friends did some work for Ford a few years back, and complained > bitterly about being sent back to the drawing board, because they felt he > could shave $.02 off the unit cost by redesigning for cheaper components. > And it wasn't for anything nearly as popular as an F150. Yeah, that sounds pretty typical of Ford from my understanding. John. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Dec 20 11:39:47 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:39:47 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <034101c84335$ff3b8e80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com><20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> <034101c84335$ff3b8e80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <034901c84337$b2901b30$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Randall wrote : > One of my friends did some work for Ford a few years back, > and complained > bitterly about being sent back to the drawing board, because > they felt he > could shave $.02 off the unit cost by redesigning for cheaper > components. And from his complaints, I would guess that he did NOT get paid any extra for the redesign. Randall From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Dec 20 11:39:56 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (ejrussell at mebtel.net) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 06:39:56 -1200 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? Message-ID: <476ab6fc.2d5.c37e.255055850@ml2.myemail.com> Drought, wars, genocide, dirty bombs, melting polar ice caps... Seems like lug bolts vs lug nuts is a relatively minor thing. ;>) Eric Russell Mebane, NC Login from home, work, school. Anywhere! From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Dec 20 11:53:55 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:53:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071220130620.C52923@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> <2400a5d40712200857j57abd504p581c4172b04e25bd@mail.gmail.com> <20071220130620.C52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <476ABA43.5040104@xxiii.com> David Hillman wrote: > However, I also don't understand how a lug bolt with a 60* seat > does anything different wrt positioning the wheel than a nut with a 60* > seat on a stud does. They don't. I think Mr Scheidt is just a little misinformed on wheels. Most if not all stud-mounted wheels [on crappy non Euro cars - just playing along here ;) ] are hub-centric. They're located by the wheel's center bore and the bearing hub, NOT the studs & nuts. That's why aftermarket wheels come with the selection of hub centering rings. -Wayne From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Thu Dec 20 12:14:02 2007 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:14:02 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071220131830.D52923@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com><20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com><476AA3BF.6080505@milleredp.com> <20071220131830.D52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797BAF624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> David Hillman wrote: > > OTOH, replacing a stud is a 2 minute job on any car well-enough > designed to have a gap in the back for the stud to exit. > Turn the hub to line up with the gap, whack with hammer, watch > old stud skitter across garage floor, The well-enough designed car is rather rare. The studs I've needed to replace have been a royal pain - one rear axle required removing the pumpkin cover to pull the clip to allow the axle to be pulled out in order to get access to the rear of the hub flange. Similar problems with a front wheel drive hub on another car. Besides, you never want to whack it out with a hammer. The impact is bad on the wheel bearings and can damage them. Press it out with a large C-clamp and a socket on the back if you can. Don't hammer on it... I've only had one car with lug bolts, and it's not a problem - the wheel is hub centric and I just lift it onto the hub and line things up. No more difficult than my non-hub centric lug nut cars/trucks. If it was a problem, I'd just make a "holding" bolt as recommended in previous posts... Tim Mullen From pethier at comcast.net Thu Dec 20 12:15:12 2007 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:15:12 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? Message-ID: <122020071915.20593.476ABF4000093D380000507122058863609D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> From: "David Scheidt" > The reason they do this is that it makes the wheels concentric to the > wheel bearing. The use or non-use of concentric hubs to locate the wheel is independent of the choice between studs or bolts. If there is centering fixture built into the hub and wheel, the fastening method should be irrelevant to centering. If there is no centering fixture built into the hub and wheel, I don't see where there would be discernible difference between a tapered nut and a tapered bolt for centering the wheel. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From cak at dimebank.com Thu Dec 20 12:21:27 2007 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:21:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <476AB5B3.7010505@milleredp.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com> <20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> <034101c84335$ff3b8e80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <476AB5B3.7010505@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <476AC0B7.6020304@dimebank.com> John Miller wrote: >> One of my friends did some work for Ford a few years back, and complained >> bitterly about being sent back to the drawing board, because they felt he >> could shave $.02 off the unit cost by redesigning for cheaper components. >> And it wasn't for anything nearly as popular as an F150. A friend of my father's worked as an engineer for GM. As far as I can tell, the majority of his career concentrated on the design of the locking mechanism for the rear doors of various sedans. He made a huge breakthrough one year by reducing the parts count from 7 to 5, or something like that ... this single act guaranteed his success at the company for the rest of his career there. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Dec 20 12:26:29 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:26:29 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <476ABA43.5040104@xxiii.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> <2400a5d40712200857j57abd504p581c4172b04e25bd@mail.gmail.com><20071220130620.C52923@itonami.pair.com> <476ABA43.5040104@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <035d01c8433e$387193e0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Most if not all stud-mounted wheels [on crappy > non Euro cars - just playing along here ;) ] are > hub-centric. They're located by the wheel's center bore and > the bearing hub, NOT the studs & nuts. Certainly not all ... my driveway is full of cars both American and European, all with studs and tapered nut-located wheels. Randall From paul.mele at usermail.com Thu Dec 20 13:04:03 2007 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:04:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts?: hanger tool In-Reply-To: References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com> <20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com> <0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com> <476AA4FB.6090208@milleredp.com> Message-ID: <006001c84343$78e25db0$6aa71910$@mele@usermail.com> <> my BMW's have all had the tool in the trunk lid tool kit. At an annual trivia contest, however, only a very few people knew what the tool was used for. With or without the tool, it didn't take long to learn how to put the wheels of my cars on easily. BMW's with tool that I've owned: 72, 73, 74 Bavaria 78 530 85 535 86 528e 87 735 89 325i, e 91 318i (I think) I don't know if BMW cut back on supplying this tool in later years or models... From hillman at planet-torque.com Thu Dec 20 14:50:14 2007 From: hillman at planet-torque.com (David Hillman) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:50:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797BAF624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com><20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com><476AA3BF.6080505@milleredp.com> <20071220131830.D52923@itonami.pair.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797BAF624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <20071220163802.P52923@itonami.pair.com> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Mullen, Tim wrote: > The well-enough designed car is rather rare. The studs I've needed to > replace have been a royal pain - one rear axle required removing the > pumpkin cover to pull the clip to allow the axle to be pulled out in > order to get access to the rear of the hub flange. Similar problems > with a front wheel drive hub on another car. How easy/cheap is it to pull and replace the hub (with damaged threads) on those cars? How much easier would it be to provide easy access to the hub flange, versus making it easy to replace the hub? > Besides, you never want to whack it out with a hammer. The impact is > bad on the wheel bearings and can damage them. Press it out with a > large C-clamp and a socket on the back if you can. Don't hammer on > it... I'm fairly sure the impact from me swinging a hammer is dwarfed by what happens when my 3000 pound car hits a pothole at 50 mph, but you may be a lot stronger than I am. -- David Hillman From mml at pobox.com Thu Dec 20 14:19:24 2007 From: mml at pobox.com (Matt Liggett) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? Message-ID: <355409BB-E009-4DFA-BF8B-BE1D922C9347@pobox.com> On Dec 19, 2007, at 23:08 , David Hillman wrote: > But, the choices are pretty slim apart from these two cars... > so can > anyone give me some good reason why I shouldn't think lug bolts are > one of > the greatest mistakes in automotive engineering history? What is > their > purpose, other than to take a perfectly good design and ruin it > completely? Are they the result of a bunch of German engineers > getting > way too drunk on dark beer at a Christmas party, and betting each > other to > see who could come up with the worst idea? SAABs have them too -- at least my 89 900 did. The SAAB includes a little hanger, not as a separate tool, but as a permanently attached little peg between two of the bolt holes, and the wheels are machined with a matching little hole to hang the wheel on. The wheels are also hubcentric, so once they are hung and pushed over the hub, the basically stay put while you put the bolts in. As for motivation, I note that the threads on bolts are protected from the elements, and the exposed threads on studs are not, wheel covers and hubcaps notwithstanding. -- Matt Liggett From chad at linuxeg.com Thu Dec 20 15:06:07 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:06:07 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <47689718.1040002@linuxeg.com> References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> <47688AC1.2080502@xxiii.com> <47689718.1040002@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <476AE74F.2030305@linuxeg.com> I priced the ready made counter top, it's just over twice the price of the laminate, well worth the extra cost in saved time. Now I have another question. The 10 ft counter they sell is the correct size for main counter but for the two smaller tops I'll need to cut to size. Any suggestions on the best way to cut these? The only tool I have for the job in a 7 1/4" circular saw. With a fine tooth blade would this work. Naturally I'm concerned about chipping the laminate so I'm thinking cutting from the back side and possible clamping a length of wood to the laminated side. I priced custom made tops - just the counters, no installation - they are around triple the price of the off the shelf tops and 6 time the laminate this project is snowballing. thanks, chad From rs1121 at earthlink.net Thu Dec 20 15:25:28 2007 From: rs1121 at earthlink.net (Ron Schmittou) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:25:28 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <034901c84337$b2901b30$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com><20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com> <034101c84335$ff3b8e80$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <034901c84337$b2901b30$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <012501c84357$39b3ce80$ad1b6b80$@net> Of course Ford has a lot of other stud and nut issues today ;-> -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+rs1121=earthlink.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randall Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:40 PM To: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? Randall wrote : > One of my friends did some work for Ford a few years back, > and complained > bitterly about being sent back to the drawing board, because > they felt he > could shave $.02 off the unit cost by redesigning for cheaper > components. chive From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Dec 20 15:30:50 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:30:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071220163802.P52923@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com><20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com><476AA3BF.6080505@milleredp.com> <20071220131830.D52923@itonami.pair.com> <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797BAF624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <20071220163802.P52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, David Hillman wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Mullen, Tim wrote: >> The well-enough designed car is rather rare. The studs I've needed to >> replace have been a royal pain - one rear axle required removing the >> pumpkin cover to pull the clip to allow the axle to be pulled out in >> order to get access to the rear of the hub flange. Similar problems >> with a front wheel drive hub on another car. > > How easy/cheap is it to pull and replace the hub (with damaged > threads) on those cars? How much easier would it be to provide easy > access to the hub flange, versus making it easy to replace the hub? Its not particularly cheap, but its a heck of a lot easier to replace the hubs on my 4th gen camaro than it is to replace a wheel stud. >> Besides, you never want to whack it out with a hammer. The impact is >> bad on the wheel bearings and can damage them. Press it out with a >> large C-clamp and a socket on the back if you can. Don't hammer on >> it... > > I'm fairly sure the impact from me swinging a hammer is dwarfed by > what happens when my 3000 pound car hits a pothole at 50 mph, but you > may be a lot stronger than I am. So all the manufacturers that explicitly recommend against doing just that are making it up? Mark From hal at katemuir.com Thu Dec 20 15:37:41 2007 From: hal at katemuir.com (Hal Faulkner) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:37:41 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <476AE74F.2030305@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: Chad, Your circular saw should do just fine. I was able to cut counter top material with mine. used masking tape along the finish side of the cut to help reduce chipping. The hardest part was getting a clean cut up the splash guard, so play with a little scrap first. The dealer for your material should also be able to sell you an end kit which is "iron on" to finish the ends of the top. A flush cutting router bit will come in handy here to make it follow the shape of your top. If you need to fit into a corner get pre mitered top (right and left). Believe me they can make a more accurate 45 deg cut than you can. Hal - From kturk at ala.net Thu Dec 20 15:43:10 2007 From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:43:10 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter References: Message-ID: <01d601c84359$b4dfb810$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> That or just see your local cabinets shop about cutting the straight piece for you... they will also do the routing and sell you the special bolt set ups to tighten it up... K From ejrussell at mebtel.net Thu Dec 20 16:11:18 2007 From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric J Russell) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:11:18 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] recovering kitchen counter References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> <47688AC1.2080502@xxiii.com><47689718.1040002@linuxeg.com> <476AE74F.2030305@linuxeg.com> Message-ID: <004801c8435d$dd1fd6d0$0202a8c0@ejrussell> Definitely cut from the underside if using the circular saw. Clamp a guide to make a straight cut. http://www.easy2diy.com/cm/easy/diy_ht_3d_index.asp?page_id=35743498 If those shorter sections are at right angles to and attach to the longer piece, a 45 degree cut is needed if you are installing a 'post formed' counter top (rolled front edge and one-piece back splash). Have the retailer make the 45 degree cuts and rout for inset clamp plates. One type is shown here: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=349&filter=tite%20joint Do you have a means to make reasonably straight cuts in plywood (table saw)? Why not make new substrate? (I usually use 3/4" luan instead of particleboard). All joints can be butt joints with reinforcing backing glued under the joints. Add 2-3" wide pieces along the front & back underside edges to make the top 1 1/2" thick. Add a 3/4" solid wood edge along the front if desired to dress it up. Eric Russell Mebane, NC http://home.mebtel.net/~ejrussell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chadwick E. Labno" > The 10 ft counter they sell is the correct size for > main counter but for the two smaller tops I'll need to cut to size. From Tim.Mullen at ngc.com Fri Dec 21 09:26:39 2007 From: Tim.Mullen at ngc.com (Mullen, Tim) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:26:39 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <20071220163802.P52923@itonami.pair.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><476A78B9.2010609@hornesystemstx.com><20071220113924.N52923@itonami.pair.com><476AA3BF.6080505@milleredp.com><20071220131830.D52923@itonami.pair.com><9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797BAF624@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> <20071220163802.P52923@itonami.pair.com> Message-ID: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797BAFA42@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> David Hillman wrote: > How easy/cheap is it to pull and replace the hub (with damaged > threads) on those cars? How much easier would it be to provide easy > access to the hub flange, versus making it easy to replace the hub? It would be nice if there was easy access to the hub flange. But usually, there isn't. > I'm fairly sure the impact from me swinging a hammer is dwarfed by what > happens when my 3000 pound car hits a pothole at 50 mph, but you may be a > lot stronger than I am. It's a different kind of impact, and in a different direction. Additionally, that pothole impact is mostly absorbed by the tire flex and the suspension movement. As pointed out in another reply, the manufacturers usually specifically say not to hammer... Now, that said, I've done the hammer thing before. I know that you are not supposed to so it, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. But I try to press the stud out if at all possible. If the hub is easily removed, it comes off and the stud is pressed out with my 12 ton press - that works great. Tim Mullen Chantilly, VA From edvs at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 10:39:54 2007 From: edvs at yahoo.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:39:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <9C2F69BA6FB69F43ABCDBCFFC282C797BAFA42@XMBIL103.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <448667.66853.qm@web51009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Many racing organizations require longer-than-stock wheel studs.... Any insight as to how they view (and treat) wheel bolts?? Ed --- "Mullen, Tim" wrote: > David Hillman wrote: > > > How easy/cheap is it to pull and replace the hub > (with damaged > > threads) on those cars? How much easier would it > be to provide easy > > access to the hub flange, versus making it easy to > replace the hub? > > It would be nice if there was easy access to the hub > flange. But > usually, there isn't. > > > I'm fairly sure the impact from me swinging a > hammer is dwarfed by > what > > happens when my 3000 pound car hits a pothole at > 50 mph, but you may > be a > > lot stronger than I am. > > It's a different kind of impact, and in a different > direction. > Additionally, that pothole impact is mostly absorbed > by the tire flex > and the suspension movement. As pointed out in > another reply, the > manufacturers usually specifically say not to > hammer... > > Now, that said, I've done the hammer thing before. > I know that you are > not supposed to so it, but sometimes you have to do > what you have to do. > But I try to press the stud out if at all possible. > > If the hub is easily removed, it comes off and the > stud is pressed out > with my 12 ton press - that works great. > > Tim Mullen > > Chantilly, VA > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From dmscheidt at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 11:19:10 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:19:10 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? In-Reply-To: <122020071915.20593.476ABF4000093D380000507122058863609D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> References: <122020071915.20593.476ABF4000093D380000507122058863609D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712211019o39faae8fndbf506ddcb52c585@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 20, 2007 2:15 PM, wrote: > From: "David Scheidt" > > The reason they do this is that it makes the wheels concentric to the > > wheel bearing. > > The use or non-use of concentric hubs to locate the wheel is independent of the choice between studs or bolts. > > If there is centering fixture built into the hub and wheel, the fastening method should be irrelevant to centering. > > If there is no centering fixture built into the hub and wheel, I don't see where there would be discernible difference between a tapered nut and a tapered bolt for centering the wheel. Somewhere, I've got a technical document that explains why conical nuts don't actually work the way you think they do. They do when the wheels are installed properly; most of the time, the wheel isn't installed properly. Hanging it from the studs is the wrong way to do it. When the nut is drawn up, the stud deflects. Using a bolt forces the wheel to move. > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From juice at lerch.org Fri Dec 21 13:16:01 2007 From: juice at lerch.org (Justin Bedard) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:16:01 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Mixing Valves Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a good mixing valve for my hot water system? I have a Crown Boiler (Cayman 3, CWI103 - http://www.crownboiler.com/products/res_gas/cayman_prn.asp) that provides my heat and hot water. Installed is a Honeywell mixing valve (AM-1 Series 1/2" NPT - http://customer.honeywell.com/honeywell/ProductInfo.aspx/AM100-1that might be it. It's ASSE 1016T & 1017 but there are no other markings). The water is only hot for the first minute or so and then it's just warm or luke-warm. That's with the mixing valve set to 4. That should be good for 140 degrees and even if it's a "C" model that should be 120 degrees. The minimum water temperature on the boiler is set to 170 degrees and the boiler's thermometer confirms it. I don't know the cold water temperature orthe mixed water temperature. I might pick up some thermal temperature indicator strips. Honeywell's site says it's good for 80 gal. water tanks. My boiler is only 10 gal. and flows at 2.5 gal/min (according to the site). Maybe I need to restrict the flow rate. I also make sure I turn down the house's thermostat so that the heater doesn't kick on. The hot water supply is a lot better in the summer. Thanks, Justin From trevor at boicey.com Fri Dec 21 13:23:08 2007 From: trevor at boicey.com (Trevor Boicey) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:23:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Mixing Valves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65172.198.103.221.52.1198268588.squirrel@new.host.name> > Can anyone recommend a good mixing valve for my hot water system? > > I have a Crown Boiler (Cayman 3, CWI103 - > http://www.crownboiler.com/products/res_gas/cayman_prn.asp) that provides > my heat and hot water. Installed is a Honeywell mixing valve (AM-1 Series > 1/2" NPT - > http://customer.honeywell.com/honeywell/ProductInfo.aspx/AM100-1that > might be it. It's ASSE 1016T & 1017 but there are no other markings). I'm pretty sure I have the same one, generic one available at Home Depot. Works fine for me. > The water is only hot for the first minute or so and then it's just warm > or luke-warm. Stupid question perhaps, but is your hot water tank plumbed backwards by any chance? As in... the "out" of the tank actually connected to the "in" connection? That will happen on a "big tank" if the hot water is being drawn out of the wrong hose... from the bottom of the tank rather than the top. It is also worse in Winter as the water from the ground is cooler. I wonder if this is a problem with your small tank... in the big tanks the hot water is drawn from the top with the cold water added to the bottom, and it manages to stay separate enough that the water coming out is close enough to the same temperatute that the mixing valve can make it perfect... From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 17:22:48 2007 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:22:48 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts? Message-ID: 'David Scheidt' dmscheidt at gmail.comsaid...They do when the wheels are installed properly; most of the time, the wheel isn't installed properly. OK, what is the proper way?Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA'63 TR3B TCF587LThat ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!See it moves! From jibjib at att.net Fri Dec 21 18:30:26 2007 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:30:26 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts?: hanger tool In-Reply-To: <006001c84343$78e25db0$6aa71910$@mele@usermail.com> References: <47646003.62.6590.11952585@ml2.myemail.com><20071219230059.D94989@itonami.pair.com><0JTB00MI0YHOHVB1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><20071220112938.P52923@itonami.pair.com><476AA4FB.6090208@milleredp.com> <006001c84343$78e25db0$6aa71910$@mele@usermail.com> Message-ID: <01c301c8443a$3c21d020$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> The weirdest tool I've ever seen for wheel removal is one required for our Volvo XC90. It is a small, almost tweezers like tool in the glove box. It lets you take the cheap, plastic covers off the lug bolt tops, revealing the galvanized bolt that you can put a wrench on. It's embarrassing to see something like this on a $40k+ vehicle. Volvo now makes the bolts in either SS or chrome plate, I can't recall which, but I have not yet looked into where to buy them, at less than the exorbitant stealership prices. Jack -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Paul Mele Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:04 PM To: 'Paul Parkanzky'; 'Shop-Talk List' Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Lug Bolts?: hanger tool <> my BMW's have all had the tool in the trunk lid tool kit. At an annual trivia contest, however, only a very few people knew what the tool was used for. With or without the tool, it didn't take long to learn how to put the wheels of my cars on easily. BMW's with tool that I've owned: 72, 73, 74 Bavaria 78 530 85 535 86 528e 87 735 89 325i, e 91 318i (I think) I don't know if BMW cut back on supplying this tool in later years or models... You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From frede.thomas2 at verizon.net Fri Dec 21 19:14:45 2007 From: frede.thomas2 at verizon.net (FRED E THOMAS) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:14:45 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] winter time Message-ID: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> Easy way to check for radiator corrosion protection, just as important as checking the antifreeze, if the coolant is allowed to become "acidic" the engine and radiator will also become corroded with rust. Using a volt-ohm meter (VOM) set it to a DC voltage range that measure in "tenths" of a volt, remove the cap and place the negative VOM lead into coolant, being very careful not to touch any other part of the radiator. Place the Positive lead of the VOM against a bare metal part of the radiator (or a good ground of the engine), a reading of 0.2 volts or less, coolant is in good shape, a reading of 0.5 volts it is borderline, 0.7 volts replace your coolant immediatly. This comes from my "Model A" workshop manual and also says it works in modern cars as well, which is really more important because of aluminum heads or dissimilar metals in modern cars. From pethier at comcast.net Fri Dec 21 21:30:50 2007 From: pethier at comcast.net (pethier at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 04:30:50 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification Message-ID: <122220070430.22648.476C92FA0004895F0000587822007348409D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> From: "David Scheidt" > Lithium ion batteries have a short lifetime. They last about 24 > months from the date of manufacture. That's true if they're used, or > not. Maybe Ni-MH batteries would be better. I've had my little Kodak digi camera for 36 months, put a couple of thousand pix though it and pay little attention to when I put it on the charging stand and when I don't. Still works. -- Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata C package pethier [at] comcast [dot] net http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier I decry the textmessagization of the American-English language. From jmitch at snet.net Sat Dec 22 06:56:49 2007 From: jmitch at snet.net (John Mitchell) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:56:49 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] [TR] winter time In-Reply-To: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> References: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> Message-ID: <476D17A1.8070803@snet.net> I ran right down and did mine last night. 1.5 volts. One less thing to do this winter:) Thanks Fred John Mitchell FRED E THOMAS wrote: > Easy way to check for radiator corrosion protection, just as important as > checking the antifreeze, if the coolant is allowed to become "acidic" the > engine and radiator will also become corroded with rust. Using a volt-ohm > meter (VOM) set it to a DC voltage range that measure in "tenths" of a volt, > remove the cap and place the negative VOM lead into coolant, being very > careful not to touch any other part of the radiator. Place the Positive lead > of the VOM against a bare metal part of the radiator (or a good ground of the > engine), a reading of 0.2 volts or less, coolant is in good shape, a reading > of 0.5 volts it is borderline, 0.7 volts replace your coolant immediatly. > This comes from my "Model A" workshop manual and also says it works in modern > cars as well, which is really more important because of aluminum heads or > dissimilar metals in modern cars. > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > This list supported in part by the Vintage Triumph Register > http://www.vtr.org > > > Triumphs at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/triumphs > > http://www.team.net/archive From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Dec 22 09:28:18 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:28:18 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] [TR] winter time References: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> <476D17A1.8070803@snet.net> Message-ID: <031601c844b7$a9815af0$6401a8c0@niolon> John... your's is about twice what it should be... The way I read Fred's post...I think you're looking for the lowest voltage ! zero .2 volts you're at 1.5 that's 7 times the minimum john All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Mitchell" To: "FRED E THOMAS" Cc: "triumphs" ; "spitfires" ; "Shop-Talk Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:56 AM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] [TR] winter time >I ran right down and did mine last night. 1.5 volts. One less thing to > do this winter:) Thanks Fred > > > John Mitchell > > FRED E THOMAS wrote: >> Easy way to check for radiator corrosion protection, just as important as >> checking the antifreeze, if the coolant is allowed to become "acidic" the >> engine and radiator will also become corroded with rust. Using a volt-ohm >> meter (VOM) set it to a DC voltage range that measure in "tenths" of a >> volt, >> remove the cap and place the negative VOM lead into coolant, being very >> careful not to touch any other part of the radiator. Place the Positive >> lead >> of the VOM against a bare metal part of the radiator (or a good ground of >> the >> engine), a reading of 0.2 volts or less, coolant is in good shape, a >> reading >> of 0.5 volts it is borderline, 0.7 volts replace your coolant immediatly. >> This comes from my "Model A" workshop manual and also says it works in >> modern >> cars as well, which is really more important because of aluminum heads or >> dissimilar metals in modern cars. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> This list supported in part by the Vintage Triumph Register >> http://www.vtr.org >> >> >> Triumphs at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/triumphs >> >> http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Dec 22 09:48:15 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:48:15 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand Message-ID: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> I'm looking to build a replacement for my wimpy engine stand. It did fine for a small block and some sixes but my next project is a 460 that will top 700 #s fully dressed. My stand will hold the weight but it's a strain and turning it is near impossible. I want to build something with bearings in the 'head' that can support the load and turn easily. I've heard of one built with the ends of rearends cut down (with the axle bearings in place) and using the axle for the rod. Also heard of some using front spindles or trailer spindles. Anyone got any plans or pics of what I'm talking about. 700#s is a pretty good end load so it needs to be somewhat substantial... tia John All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. From bobkegel at seanet.com Sat Dec 22 11:49:46 2007 From: bobkegel at seanet.com (Bob Kegel) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:49:46 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand In-Reply-To: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <000201c844cb$6f8535b0$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> > I'm looking to build a replacement for my wimpy engine stand. DIY version: www.tomyang.net/cars/enginestand.htm Ready made: http://www.americasprideonline.com/1-ton-engine-stands-two-post-8152-3-1.Vie wProduct Bob Kegel Aberdeen, WA From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 12:55:21 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:55:21 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: <122220070430.22648.476C92FA0004895F0000587822007348409D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> References: <122220070430.22648.476C92FA0004895F0000587822007348409D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712221155n10e40bf0o7e9268e6f9ca5efc@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 21, 2007 11:30 PM, wrote: > From: "David Scheidt" > > Lithium ion batteries have a short lifetime. They last about 24 > > months from the date of manufacture. That's true if they're used, or > > not. > > Maybe Ni-MH batteries would be better. I've had my little Kodak digi camera for 36 months, put a couple of thousand pix though it and pay little attention to when I put it on the charging stand and when I don't. > The advantage -- and it really is singular -- of Li-ion batteries is power density. For a battery of a given mass, the Li-ion battery will hold more power than anything else except for some really exotic battery types, but it costs more, has a shorter lifespan, requires an expensive charging circuit, is more sensitive to temperature and storage conditions, and will wear out sitting on a shelf. The energy density means it has a longer run time, talk time, or more photos per charge, which is why everything has one. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From kvacek at ameritech.net Sat Dec 22 13:48:33 2007 From: kvacek at ameritech.net (Karl Vacek) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:48:33 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification References: <122220070430.22648.476C92FA0004895F0000587822007348409D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> <2400a5d40712221155n10e40bf0o7e9268e6f9ca5efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c844dc$05144ed0$6e01a8c0@KARL> Is there any particular reason, other than the cost (which doesn't seem very different) that manufacturers send nicads with most rechargeable products that don't warrant lithium ion cells ? I've replaced nicads with nickel metal hydrides everywhere I could and had great results. One slight exception is the Motorola HT-1000 radios we use for the police auxiliary. NiMH packs work fine, but the radios, originally calibrated for nicads, think the battery is getting weak and do their "weak battery" chirp for hours before the radio actually dies. I presume NiMH cells must have a little lower voltage than NiCds. Other than that little problem, they work better, last longer (per charge and per replacement), and don't show the memory effects that some people saw when we used nicads. Karl >> From: "David Scheidt" >> > Lithium ion batteries have a short lifetime. They last about 24 >> > months from the date of manufacture. That's true if they're used, or >> > not. >> >> Maybe Ni-MH batteries would be better. I've had my little Kodak digi >> camera for 36 months, put a couple of thousand pix though it and pay >> little attention to when I put it on the charging stand and when I don't. >> > > The advantage -- and it really is singular -- of Li-ion batteries is > power density. For a battery of a given mass, the Li-ion battery will > hold more power than anything else except for some really exotic > battery types, but it costs more, has a shorter lifespan, requires an > expensive charging circuit, is more sensitive to temperature and > storage conditions, and will wear out sitting on a shelf. The energy > density means it has a longer run time, talk time, or more photos per > charge, which is why everything has one. > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 14:27:58 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:27:58 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] winter time In-Reply-To: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> References: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712221327p60ea43e3hea2f035128713ba2@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 21, 2007 9:14 PM, FRED E THOMAS wrote: With modern vehicles, it's *much* more likely that the problem is that the electrical system is poorly grounded, and the engine coolant is being used as a ground. Fix it. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 15:17:04 2007 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:17:04 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: <003201c844dc$05144ed0$6e01a8c0@KARL> References: <122220070430.22648.476C92FA0004895F0000587822007348409D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> <2400a5d40712221155n10e40bf0o7e9268e6f9ca5efc@mail.gmail.com> <003201c844dc$05144ed0$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: *I shoot lots of digital photos with a Canon camera and over several years, I've come to the Rayovac Hybird NiMH AA cells for my purpose. They charge in my old NiMH charger, perform like any NiMH batteries and, on the shelf, hold their charge 3 or 4 time longer than other NiMH I've used. That's important to me . . it's frustrating to install batteries you charged last month and find them dead. Check them out:* ** *http://www.rayovac.com/recharge/index.shtml* ** *They cost about what other NiMH batteries cost, 10 buck for 4. * ** *Tony* From shiples at comcast.net Sat Dec 22 16:26:38 2007 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:26:38 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand In-Reply-To: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071222151338.0358c3c0@mail.comcast.net> At 10:48 AM 12/22/2007 -0600, john niolon wrote: >I'm looking to build a replacement for my wimpy engine stand. It did fine >for a small block and some sixes but my next project is a 460 that will top >700 #s fully dressed. My stand will hold the weight but it's a strain and >turning it is near impossible. > >I want to build something with bearings in the 'head' that can support the >load and turn easily. I've heard of one built with the ends of rearends cut >down (with the axle bearings in place) and using the axle for the rod. Also >heard of some using front spindles or trailer spindles. Anyone got any >plans or pics of what I'm talking about. 700#s is a pretty good end load so >it needs to be somewhat substantial... One comment: I use one of those generic stands and find it tough to rotate a Ford 351. But I just use a longer bar. The friction in the head keeps the engine in place once you've positioned it. The pin is a safety device. Using some sort of bearing would certainly increase the wow factor but I'd be concerned that you'd have to add a device to hold the engine once rotated. And since the CG changes as you build your engine, wouldn't you have to have some way to adjust the friction on the head? Steve Shipley From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Dec 22 17:00:30 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:00:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: <003201c844dc$05144ed0$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <654408.16866.qm@web603.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> NiMH batteries seem to have mostly replaced Nicads in those rechargeable battery+charger packages you can buy in places like Wal Mart. Since I have a NiMH charger, I have no reason to ever buy Nicad AA cells again. The only reason I can see why they keep selling Nicads for tools is that the incremental benefit of changing from Nicad to NiMH does not justify the cost (new charger, battery pack style, etc.). On the other hand, Lithium batteries are sufficiently new and cool to convince people (but not me) to spend more $$$ for them. Personally, I have never used my drill long enough in one shot to run down a full Nicad battery pack. If the batteries go dead, it was because they were old and messed up, which could happen just as easily with Lithium, apparently. I am very pleased that I could get a brand new 19.2 volt Nicad pack for my 4-year-old drill for only $24.95! Doug --- Karl Vacek wrote: > Is there any particular reason, other than the cost > (which doesn't seem very > different) that manufacturers send nicads with most > rechargeable products > that don't warrant lithium ion cells ? > > I've replaced nicads with nickel metal hydrides > everywhere I could and had > great results. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 17:32:53 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:32:53 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Battery Clarification In-Reply-To: <003201c844dc$05144ed0$6e01a8c0@KARL> References: <122220070430.22648.476C92FA0004895F0000587822007348409D0A07089B0A9F@comcast.net> <2400a5d40712221155n10e40bf0o7e9268e6f9ca5efc@mail.gmail.com> <003201c844dc$05144ed0$6e01a8c0@KARL> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712221632l2aaca214jaf3ae5d3b7f76962@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2007 3:48 PM, Karl Vacek wrote: > Is there any particular reason, other than the cost (which doesn't seem very > different) that manufacturers send nicads with most rechargeable products > that don't warrant lithium ion cells ? > > I've replaced nicads with nickel metal hydrides everywhere I could and had > great results. One slight exception is the Motorola HT-1000 radios we use > for the police auxiliary. NiMH packs work fine, but the radios, originally > calibrated for nicads, think the battery is getting weak and do their "weak > battery" chirp for hours before the radio actually dies. I presume NiMH > cells must have a little lower voltage than NiCds. Other than that little > problem, they work better, last longer (per charge and per replacement), and > don't show the memory effects that some people saw when we used nicads. NiCd cells are cheaper than NiMH ones, which is a big advantage in itself. A NiCd charger is simpler and cheaper. NiCd batteries havea lower self-discharge rate than NiMH batteries do, so they work better for low-drain devices. They have flatter voltage curve than NiMH or alkaline batteries do, which means it's possible to use them closer to capacity. They've got lower internal resistance, which allows them to provide a higher current than NiMH cells, which is useful for things like power tools. Where NiMH batteries shine are their greater charge/discharge lifetime, lower environmental impact, and high-drain use. A NiMH battery can provide the same energy at a wide range of draw rates; the number of joules extracted doesn't change much at rates from C/20h to C/1 h. (20 hour draw to one hour draw.) That's a big advantage for things like cameras, toys, etc, where you want to use the power in a hurry. For things like your radios, I expect the design goal is something like "lasts a shift, plus a reserve, and recharges before the next shift". NiCds are good enough for that. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 18:17:55 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 20:17:55 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071222151338.0358c3c0@mail.comcast.net> References: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> <5.2.1.1.0.20071222151338.0358c3c0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712221717v3e5a6375pb6ac5f389d9d0ff1@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2007 6:26 PM, Steve Shipley wrote: > At 10:48 AM 12/22/2007 -0600, john niolon wrote: > One comment: I use one of those generic stands and find it tough to > rotate a Ford 351. But I just use a longer bar. The friction in the head > keeps the engine in place once you've positioned it. The pin is a safety > device. > Every engine I've ever had on a stand has had preferred orientation. Other positions require the use of the pin. One thing that I've found helpful in rotating engines is to have someone lift at the free end. You don't need to lift the whol thing, but even putting 30 or 40 lbs of upward force makes iut much easier to t urn. > Using some sort of bearing would certainly increase the wow factor but > I'd be concerned that you'd have to add a device to hold the engine once > rotated. And since the CG changes as you build your engine, wouldn't > you have to have some way to adjust the friction on the head? > > Steve Shipley > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jniolon at bham.rr.com Sat Dec 22 18:46:44 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:46:44 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand References: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> <5.2.1.1.0.20071222151338.0358c3c0@mail.comcast.net> <2400a5d40712221717v3e5a6375pb6ac5f389d9d0ff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00bb01c84505$acbb05b0$6401a8c0@niolon> Yea Dave, having a helper is great.. I've even done the "hold up the other end and try to turn it yourself" boogie too. My problem is I really don't have anyone around when I'm doing the work, or it seems that way. So, I want to resort to mechanical advantage. I mentioned to Steve. I'd rather have too much spin than not enough. It's easier to build in 'stop' than 'go'. john All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scheidt" To: "Steve Shipley" Cc: "john niolon" ; "shop-talk" Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] engine building stand > On Dec 22, 2007 6:26 PM, Steve Shipley wrote: >> At 10:48 AM 12/22/2007 -0600, john niolon wrote: > >> One comment: I use one of those generic stands and find it tough to >> rotate a Ford 351. But I just use a longer bar. The friction in the >> head >> keeps the engine in place once you've positioned it. The pin is a safety >> device. >> > > Every engine I've ever had on a stand has had preferred orientation. > Other positions require the use of the pin. One thing that I've found > helpful in rotating engines is to have someone lift at the free end. > You don't need to lift the whol thing, but even putting 30 or 40 lbs > of upward force makes iut much easier to t urn. > >> Using some sort of bearing would certainly increase the wow factor but >> I'd be concerned that you'd have to add a device to hold the engine once >> rotated. And since the CG changes as you build your engine, wouldn't >> you have to have some way to adjust the friction on the head? >> >> Steve Shipley >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> You are subscribed as dmscheidt at gmail.com >> >> Shop-talk mailing list >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk >> >> http://www.team.net/archive >> > > > > -- > David Scheidt > dmscheidt at gmail.com From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 19:12:03 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:12:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand In-Reply-To: <00bb01c84505$acbb05b0$6401a8c0@niolon> References: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> <5.2.1.1.0.20071222151338.0358c3c0@mail.comcast.net> <2400a5d40712221717v3e5a6375pb6ac5f389d9d0ff1@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01c84505$acbb05b0$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712221812p35957a97u14f47979948f4251@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2007 8:46 PM, john niolon wrote: > Yea Dave, > > having a helper is great.. I've even done the "hold up the other end and try > to turn it yourself" boogie too. My problem is I really don't have anyone > around when I'm doing the work, or it seems that way. So, I want to resort > to mechanical advantage. I mentioned to Steve. I'd rather have too much > spin than not enough. It's easier to build in 'stop' than 'go'. > I know all about not having help, trust me. -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jem at milleredp.com Sat Dec 22 23:23:30 2007 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:23:30 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand In-Reply-To: <00bb01c84505$acbb05b0$6401a8c0@niolon> References: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> <5.2.1.1.0.20071222151338.0358c3c0@mail.comcast.net> <2400a5d40712221717v3e5a6375pb6ac5f389d9d0ff1@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01c84505$acbb05b0$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: <476DFEE2.8050908@milleredp.com> > having a helper is great.. I've even done the "hold up the other end and try > to turn it yourself" boogie too. My problem is I really don't have anyone > around when I'm doing the work, or it seems that way. So, I want to resort > to mechanical advantage. I mentioned to Steve. I'd rather have too much > spin than not enough. It's easier to build in 'stop' than 'go'. I've got a thirty-five-year-old Stroppini engine stand and a five-year-old Harbor Freight thing. I've hung my stroked 460 on the Stroppini without any concerns, I would not hang it on the Harbor Freight stand. I've also made a rotisserie for my '65 Mustang that was, in its basic technology, like a pair of engine stands. Some axle grease on the shafts goes a long way. You could also try wrapping them in UHMW polyethylene tape. John. From mark at sccaprepared.com Sun Dec 23 08:18:02 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:18:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] engine building stand In-Reply-To: <00bb01c84505$acbb05b0$6401a8c0@niolon> References: <032801c844ba$732d8cf0$6401a8c0@niolon> <5.2.1.1.0.20071222151338.0358c3c0@mail.comcast.net> <2400a5d40712221717v3e5a6375pb6ac5f389d9d0ff1@mail.gmail.com> <00bb01c84505$acbb05b0$6401a8c0@niolon> Message-ID: Howdy, On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, john niolon wrote: > having a helper is great.. I've even done the "hold up the other end and > try to turn it yourself" boogie too. My problem is I really don't have > anyone around when I'm doing the work, or it seems that way. So, I want > to resort to mechanical advantage. I mentioned to Steve. I'd rather > have too much spin than not enough. It's easier to build in 'stop' than > 'go'. I'd try greasing up the slip joint between the stand & mounting plate before I tried much of anything else. Mark From herby at herbytoys.com Mon Dec 24 00:16:15 2007 From: herby at herbytoys.com (Herby) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:16:15 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tractor Supply Message-ID: <001101c845fc$e0f225a0$6601a8c0@HERBYZ> Okay not holiday related and not really LBC (although shop related) but definitely cool. On our way back from my MILs place in the NorCal mountains for an early Xmas (no snow, bummer) we stopped off at the new Tractor Supply store in Oakdale. It was quite cool. Everyone on the list(s) who talks about their local TSC store is so right, they have a lot of great stuff! I didnt buy anything but not for trying. If I could have fit the IR compressor they had on sale for $500 in the Camry it would be in my garage right now :-) Happy holidays everyone!! Herby 63 MKII Sprite (Herbytoy - patiently waiting) 62 MKII Sprite (the "resto-mod" driver) 00 Dakota R/T (the new toy) herby at herbytoys.com www.herbytoys.com No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.6/1193 - Release Date: 12/22/2007 2:02 PM From cavanadd at verizon.net Mon Dec 24 00:44:27 2007 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:44:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tractor Supply In-Reply-To: <001101c845fc$e0f225a0$6601a8c0@HERBYZ> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071223234253.015567b8@incoming.verizon.net> I wish there was one around here. None at all in Washington or Oregon; closest are in Montana and California; a little too far for a weekend trip. Dave C At 11:16 PM 12/23/2007 -0800, Herby wrote: >Okay not holiday related and not really LBC (although shop related) but >definitely cool. On our way back from my MILs place in the NorCal mountains >for an early Xmas (no snow, bummer) we stopped off at the new Tractor Supply >store in Oakdale. It was quite cool. Everyone on the list(s) who talks about >their local TSC store is so right, they have a lot of great stuff! I didnt >buy anything but not for trying. If I could have fit the IR compressor they >had on sale for $500 in the Camry it would be in my garage right now :-) > > > >Happy holidays everyone!! > > > >Herby >63 MKII Sprite (Herbytoy - patiently waiting) >62 MKII Sprite (the "resto-mod" driver) >00 Dakota R/T (the new toy) >herby at herbytoys.com > >www.herbytoys.com > > > > >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.6/1193 - Release Date: 12/22/2007 >2:02 PM >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as cavanadd at verizon.net > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive From gerrybraz at cablespeed.com Mon Dec 24 04:45:15 2007 From: gerrybraz at cablespeed.com (Gerald Brazil) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 06:45:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tractor Supply In-Reply-To: <001101c845fc$e0f225a0$6601a8c0@HERBYZ> Message-ID: <000001c84622$770e2ff0$0201a8c0@DADSTOY> If you like TSC, you would love Mills Fleet/Farm. This is a smaller chain that operates mostly in Wisconsin and Minnesota. I would describe their typical store as a TSC on steroids. When I raced at Road America I usually always had to make one or more pilgrimages to their store in nearby Plymouth for "stuff". It is the only place I know where you can buy "off the shelf" spark plugs for a Bug Eye Sprite in four different heat ranges. Happy holidays to all... -----Original Message----- From: shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net [mailto:shop-talk-bounces+gerrybraz=cablespeed.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Herby Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 2:16 AM To: 'Spridgets'; 'shop-talk list' Subject: [Shop-talk] Tractor Supply Okay not holiday related and not really LBC (although shop related) but definitely cool. On our way back from my MILs place in the NorCal mountains for an early Xmas (no snow, bummer) we stopped off at the new Tractor Supply store in Oakdale. It was quite cool. Everyone on the list(s) who talks about their local TSC store is so right, they have a lot of great stuff! I didnt buy anything but not for trying. If I could have fit the IR compressor they had on sale for $500 in the Camry it would be in my garage right now :-) Happy holidays everyone!! Herby 63 MKII Sprite (Herbytoy - patiently waiting) 62 MKII Sprite (the "resto-mod" driver) 00 Dakota R/T (the new toy) herby at herbytoys.com From rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com Mon Dec 24 08:22:59 2007 From: rlwhitetr3b at hotmail.com (Rich White) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:22:59 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Tractor Supply Message-ID: The around central Illinois we have several farm supply stores, BigR, Farm & Fleet in addition to the TSC stores. Must have something to do with being surrounded with corn and bean fields. As I heard on the radio the other day, if when you walk in you can smell the tires it has to be some place I like. I have a Farm & Fleet about three miles from home, so that is the one I use most.Rich White St. Joseph, IL USA'63 TR3B TCF587LThat ain't a scrap pile, that is my car!See it moves! From peteb at clear.net.nz Tue Dec 25 12:12:22 2007 From: peteb at clear.net.nz (Pete Bronlund) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:12:22 +1300 Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... Message-ID: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> I thought that this small experience may be a timely remeinder to at least someone else on the List: Yesterday (early .... around 3am Christmas Morning) for me in my part of the world... New Zealand, i was awoken by the most terrible noise coming from the kitchen. The sound of a machinegun firing off... Close inspection revealed it was the refrigerator and that small fan in the lower deepfreeze section had gone AWOL big time. It appeared its bearings had decided very conveniently to fail and the fan blades were now crashing against the thin alloy casing and making a HUGE noise. This was a real problem as i'd just shopped so the freezer was full of meat for the Festive Break. Now in New Zealand you have no chance of calling out a repairman at 3am let alone any of having one for 3 weeks over Christmas period combining that is Summertime here too and you really need a refrigerator. The only option i settled for was to risk a melt-mess and switched the appliance off so the rest of the household could sleep... and wondered how i could buy a new fan motor when all the businesses here are on vacation.... So during our Christmas Day and all the family commitments were in full swing, i found ten minutes to discover out what i could do about the broken-down 'fridge. I soon found this website: http://tinyurl.com/2sd729 which confirmed i needed a new fan motor... But the noise was worse by late afternoon (the 'fridge was back on to keep things cool and everyone had to talk in raised voices over the racket in the kitchen). This time i'd a decent look though and used my bright Fenix LED flashlight. Instantly i could see the problem. The whole "frost-free deepfreeze" was totally frosted up especially the duct around the fan that was chocked completely in ice. Freezers are kind of dark in the back there so you need a bright light source to investigate things. So (yes... on Christmas Day) i set to and did a huge thawing defrosting operation (taking the freezer contents to my neighbours who had some space in their freezer). Even used a small warm air fan heater to speed things along. With the duct around the fan cleared i repowered the refrigerator and PEACE, just the sound of a slight rumble.... NO NEED TO BUY A NEW MOTOR! So there you have it. Never jump to conclusions without a full investigation, is what i learnt (again).... And if your refrigerator is making a huge noise in the freezer section, check it don't need a defrosting (even the Frost-Free kind.... ;-) From jniolon at bham.rr.com Tue Dec 25 13:35:40 2007 From: jniolon at bham.rr.com (john niolon) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:35:40 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... References: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <001501c84735$b74ffad0$6401a8c0@niolon> Well Pete... your luck is contagious I walked out in the garage this a.m. and found my water heater had created a nice lake in the garage.... At least I know what I get to do tomorrow now john All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Bronlund" To: "shop-talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:12 PM Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... >I thought that this small experience may be a timely > remeinder to at least someone else on the List: > > Yesterday (early .... around 3am Christmas Morning) for me > in my part of the world... New Zealand, i was awoken by the > most terrible noise coming from the kitchen. The sound of a > machinegun firing off... Close inspection revealed it was > the refrigerator and that small fan in the lower deepfreeze > section had gone AWOL big time. It appeared its bearings had > decided very conveniently to fail and the fan blades were > now crashing against the thin alloy casing and making a HUGE > noise. This was a real problem as i'd just shopped so the > freezer was full of meat for the Festive Break. > > Now in New Zealand you have no chance of calling out a > repairman at 3am let alone any of having one for 3 weeks > over Christmas period combining that is Summertime here too > and you really need a refrigerator. The only option i > settled for was to risk a melt-mess and switched the > appliance off so the rest of the household could sleep... > and wondered how i could buy a new fan motor when all the > businesses here are on vacation.... > > So during our Christmas Day and all the family commitments > were in full swing, i found ten minutes to discover out what > i could do about the broken-down 'fridge. I soon found this > website: http://tinyurl.com/2sd729 which confirmed i needed > a new fan motor... > > But the noise was worse by late afternoon (the 'fridge was > back on to keep things cool and everyone had to talk in > raised voices over the racket in the kitchen). > > This time i'd a decent look though and used my bright Fenix > LED flashlight. Instantly i could see the problem. The whole > "frost-free deepfreeze" was totally frosted up especially > the duct around the fan that was chocked completely in ice. > Freezers are kind of dark in the back there so you need a > bright light source to investigate things. > > So (yes... on Christmas Day) i set to and did a huge > thawing defrosting operation (taking the freezer contents to > my neighbours who had some space in their freezer). Even > used a small warm air fan heater to speed things along. With > the duct around the fan cleared i repowered the refrigerator > and PEACE, just the sound of a slight rumble.... NO NEED TO > BUY A NEW MOTOR! > > So there you have it. Never jump to conclusions without a > full investigation, is what i learnt (again).... > > And if your refrigerator is making a huge noise in the > freezer section, check it don't need a defrosting (even the > Frost-Free kind.... ;-) > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as jniolon at bham.rr.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1196 - Release Date: > 12/25/2007 12:18 PM From jblair1948 at cox.net Tue Dec 25 17:13:14 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:13:14 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... In-Reply-To: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071225191314.00da8780@pop.east.cox.net> At 08:12 AM 12/26/2007 +1300, Pete Bronlund wrote: >Yesterday (early .... around 3am Christmas Morning) for me >in my part of the world... New Zealand, i was awoken by the >most terrible noise coming from the kitchen. The sound of a >machinegun firing off... Close inspection revealed it was >the refrigerator.... Pete, I feel you pain. I had a refrig. die Christmas day evening. After we'd finished our Christmas meal and all the company had gone home. Luckliy it's our winter, and for here on the east coast of Virginia, USA we had a freek snow storm. So I threw the contents of my refrig. out in the snow for 2 days while I went and purchased a New refrig. > >This time i'd a decent look though and used my bright Fenix >LED flashlight. Instantly i could see the problem. The whole >"frost-free deepfreeze" was totally frosted up especially >the duct around the fan that was chocked completely in ice. >Freezers are kind of dark in the back there so you need a >bright light source to investigate things. I hate to rain on your parade, but I think you are going to have the same problem again very shortly. If your refrig. is anything like the ones we have here, there are 2 resistor strips in the freezer section that are used for the defrost cycle. I'll bet you, that they are bad. When they fail, the freezer freezes up and the temp in the refrig, and freezer actually goes up. I've had to replace them a couple of times on my old refrig. If you have a side by side unit, you'll notice a metal panel in the freezer section that goes about the length of the back wall. It's held in place with about a dozen little screws. Remove them, and you'll find the cooling coils and you'll see the resistors. Disconnect the power to the refrig. and pull one end of the resistor. Mine had spade connectors on the wires coming from each end. Using an ohm meter, check the resistance. If it reads infinate they are bad. I think the last pair I bought were about $20 us for the two of them. Good luck. John, I feel your pain also. Been there, done that. Good luck to you also. Merry Christmas to all on the list!!! John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Dec 25 17:25:27 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 16:25:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... In-Reply-To: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <20071226002526.QCO15255.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> > The whole > "frost-free deepfreeze" was totally frosted up especially the > duct around the fan that was chocked completely in ice. "Frost-free" is actually marketing-speak for "self-defrosting" ... so very likely your root problem is in the self-defrosting part. Could be the timer or wiring; but when mine did that, the heating element (tape) itself had gone open circuit. Since frost makes a pretty good insulator, you might want to consider fixing it rather than just living with occasionally having to defrost. Randall From chad at linuxeg.com Tue Dec 25 18:01:11 2007 From: chad at linuxeg.com (Chadwick E. Labno) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 20:01:11 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] update-recovering kitchen counter In-Reply-To: <004801c8435d$dd1fd6d0$0202a8c0@ejrussell> References: <47687F1D.2080108@linuxeg.com> <47688AC1.2080502@xxiii.com><47689718.1040002@linuxeg.com> <476AE74F.2030305@linuxeg.com> <004801c8435d$dd1fd6d0$0202a8c0@ejrussell> Message-ID: <4771A7D7.7040300@linuxeg.com> Just to up date all, I have the 10 foot section on counter installed along with a new sink, garbage disposal, and faucet. Took much longer then I planned. Cutting the hole for the sink was a slow process. I made a few test cuts with a saber (jig?) saw and to my surprise there was no chipping. The lip on the sink overhangs the counter by around 3/4 inch so I felt confident I would have no problems. The drawing calls for a 1/2" radius on the four corners, these I cut with a Forstner bit - not the best tool for laminate - then proceeded to cut with the saber saw. A little touch up with a disk sander and I was finished. A little plumbing and it was complete. The smaller counters and the longer more visible cuts are on the back burner till next year, which is good timing since I replaced a faulty burner on my stove. I feel confident I can make these cuts using the suggestions from this list plus some practice on the section removed to install the sink. If all goes well I cut them otherwise I seek professional help - of a cabinet maker that is. Hope Everyone had/is having a Merry Christmas and will have enjoyable and safe New Year. Thanks for all the help and advice so till 2008 - chad From wmc_st at xxiii.com Thu Dec 27 08:25:13 2007 From: wmc_st at xxiii.com (Wayne) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:25:13 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... In-Reply-To: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> References: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4773C3D9.4050905@xxiii.com> Pete Berglund's wrote: > Yesterday (early .... around 3am Christmas Morning) for me > in my part of the world... New Zealand, i was awoken by the > most terrible noise coming from the kitchen. The sound of a > machinegun firing off... Close inspection revealed it was Sorry about your luck with the fridge. But it is interesting to ponder the cultural differences of x'mas in summer, and people on vacation. I've wondered how much international presence is on this list -- I've noticed a few .uk addresses, but never yours. I was at my mom's house years ago, and had a water heater leak & die on x'mas eve. Stayed up till 4am replacing it (I'm slow) but it was a good excuse to NOT get up early for the main event :) As a couple others mentioned, I suspect you're not out of the woods yet. It definitely sounds like the defrost mechanism is not functioning. The ones I've seen die were due to the timer, which is mechanical and kicks in -- I dunno -- every 4 to 8 days maybe. It's usually located near the temperature controls, and has an access hole to turn it manually. You can use a screwdriver to bump it around to "on"; there's usually an audible click. Then see if the freezer warms up. Sears' parts site has good free parts diagrams http://www3.sears.com/ even if you don't buy there. And if you get an exact model number and Google, there's usually repair info to be found. I was shopping for a new fridge back in July, and made an annoying discovery. All the "big box" stores that have run everyone else out of business DO NOT STOCK A DAMN THING! Lowe's, Best Buy, etc all told me they had ZERO refrigerators in stock, except for the occasional beat up floor display model or customer return. Both suggested I shop online from their selection of hundreds (rather than BOTHER them) because delivery was the same $50, and they all took 1 to 3 weeks to ship from an Atlanta warehouse (3hrs away.) I don't know what you do if you need one in a hurry! I always like to support mom & pop stores when they're competitive, and thankfully the folks at Ballard's Appliance in Asheville NC had inventory (wow!) and staff that didn't seem annoyed with me, and hooked me up with a Kitchen Aid fridge for $300 *less* than the comparable/identical K.A. or Whirpool from the billion dollar guys. -Wayne From mark at sccaprepared.com Thu Dec 27 12:56:14 2007 From: mark at sccaprepared.com (Mark Andy) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 14:56:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Shop-talk] sources for wheel weight kits? Message-ID: Howdy, I'm getting a wheel balancer and need to pickup an assortment of wheel weights. Anyone have any sources for wheel weight kits or whatever for cheap? I'd like to get some for steel wheels, plus some for alloy wheels (and yes, I know they can have different clip types... In my ideal world I could get an assortment of the different alloy styles as well). Something like a range from 1/4oz to 2oz would be good. I'll also get some stick-on weights, but the clip-on style is easier to deal with if I can find assortments at a reasonable price... Thanks! Mark From bspidell at comcast.net Thu Dec 27 13:08:07 2007 From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:08:07 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] sources for wheel weight kits? Message-ID: <122720072008.17397.47740627000101F1000043F5220702157304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net> JC Whitney has them: http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2003849/p-2003849/N-111+10201+600003831/c-10101 bs -- *************************************************************** Bob Spidell San Jose, CA bspidell at comcast.net '67 Austin-Healey 3000 '56 Austin-Healey 100M *************************************************************** -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Mark Andy > Howdy, > > I'm getting a wheel balancer and need to pickup an assortment of wheel > weights. > > Anyone have any sources for wheel weight kits or whatever for cheap? I'd > like to get some for steel wheels, plus some for alloy wheels (and yes, I > know they can have different clip types... In my ideal world I could get > an assortment of the different alloy styles as well). > > Something like a range from 1/4oz to 2oz would be good. > > I'll also get some stick-on weights, but the clip-on style is easier to > deal with if I can find assortments at a reasonable price... > > Thanks! > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as bspidell at comcast.net > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive From cavanadd at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 13:13:33 2007 From: cavanadd at verizon.net (David C.) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:13:33 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... In-Reply-To: <4773C3D9.4050905@xxiii.com> References: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071227120751.0336a008@incoming.verizon.net> At 10:25 AM 12/27/2007 -0500, Wayne wrote: >was shopping for a new fridge back in July, and made an annoying >discovery. All the "big box" stores that have run everyone else out of >business DO NOT STOCK A DAMN THING! Lowe's, Best Buy, etc all told me >they had ZERO refrigerators in stock, except for the occasional beat up >floor display model or customer return. Both suggested I shop online >from their selection of hundreds (rather than BOTHER them) because >delivery was the same $50, and they all took 1 to 3 weeks to ship from >an Atlanta warehouse (3hrs away.) I don't know what you do if you need >one in a hurry! > >I always like to support mom & pop stores when they're competitive, and >thankfully the folks at Ballard's Appliance in Asheville NC had >inventory (wow!) and staff that didn't seem annoyed with me, and hooked >me up with a Kitchen Aid fridge for $300 *less* than the >comparable/identical K.A. or Whirpool from the billion dollar guys. I can second that. Over the last 20+ years and two houses my wife and I have purchased ALL of our major appliances from one or two local appliance outfits, where we can talk to sales people who know what they are doing and will deliver and service the stuff themselves, not farm it out to the lowest priced subcontractor. We have always received competitive pricing, too. Re: the defrost stuff, that is one reason why our deep freeze is not a "frost free" model. All the reviews and other info we read years ago pointed out that non-frost free freezers were a LOT more efficient (if you keep them defrosted manually), so my wife generally takes care of this task every nine months or so, and our freezer has worked just fine for about 20 years. We are going to replace it in the new year with a newer, more efficient model, and it's gonna be non-frost free, too. Thanks for the info on the thermostats and heater strips; I'll keep that in mind when our frost free fridge/freezer craps out. Dave C From mattw at webtripper.com Thu Dec 27 14:08:01 2007 From: mattw at webtripper.com (Matt Wehland) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 15:08:01 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] sources for wheel weight kits? In-Reply-To: <122720072008.17397.47740627000101F1000043F5220702157304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net> References: <122720072008.17397.47740627000101F1000043F5220702157304040A0B079F9C0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200712271508.01612.mattw@webtripper.com> From: Mark Andy > Howdy, > > > > I'm getting a wheel balancer and need to pickup an assortment of wheel > > weights. If you get the clip-on type for alloy rims make sure they are coated so they don't scratch the coatings on the rims. Back when I was balancing my own rims I got a bunch of stick ons since they won't scratch the rims, I'd had problems with tire places using non coated weights that would scratch. If the wheels were cleaned good I had no problems with them sticking. I actually kept the stick ons and took them with me to tire shops when I didn't have access to the balancing machine. I also made sure that the weights were placed on the inside of the rim, so it looked better. Around this time Discount Tire opened in our area and I started using them since they used decent weights and placed them on the inside. They also used torque sticks for mounting the wheels so they didn't over torque them. They did things the way I wanted, without being asked. Not sure how they are now though. As for where to get them I'd try your local supplier for shops. Napa might be an option also. Matt Wehland From jibjib at att.net Thu Dec 27 15:54:27 2007 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 14:54:27 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Household appliances that breakdown on Christmas Day.... In-Reply-To: <4773C3D9.4050905@xxiii.com> References: <47715616.c3.6540.7808@clear.net.nz> <4773C3D9.4050905@xxiii.com> Message-ID: <007301c848db$6fe22b30$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> > I always like to support mom & pop stores when they're competitive Lots of them are competitive. As a (small time) landlord, I need a shop that will stock, deliver, install and haul away the old quickly and without supervision. There are out there and they are competitive with the big box stores. By competitive, I mean within 10% on price. They offer better service and often have in-house service personnel. Yeah, it may be a little different for me because I average about one major piece a year, but when I went into my current supplier the first time, I negotiated hard, but acted as if I was a one time buyer. His final delivered and installed pricing was within 5% of Home Depot and Lowes prices and his own guy delivered and set it up the next day at a time I picked. I like that much better than the big box generic delivery service. Jack From racegt6 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 18:01:59 2007 From: racegt6 at yahoo.com (Charlie Schlismann) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:01:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] sources for wheel weight kits? In-Reply-To: <200712271508.01612.mattw@webtripper.com> Message-ID: <695756.69589.qm@web30809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > From: Mark Andy > > Howdy, > > > > > > I'm getting a wheel balancer and need to pickup > an assortment of wheel > > > weights. > > If you get the clip-on type for alloy rims make sure > they are coated so they > don't scratch the coatings on the rims. > Back when I was balancing my own rims I got a bunch > of stick ons since they > won't scratch the rims. > If the wheels were cleaned good I had no problems > with them sticking. > I also made sure that the weights were placed on the > inside of the rim. . > > As for where to get them I'd try your local supplier > for shops. Napa might be > an option also. > > Matt Wehland Mark, Matt's advice is spot-on. We often put a small piece of racers/duct tape over the weights if we're racing, but for normal use, the adhesive sticks plenty well. We too like them inside so long as they do not interfere with the calipers. Pegasus has them: http://tinyurl.com/2jm2yf Charlie #71 MiDiv F500 From jem at milleredp.com Thu Dec 27 18:12:40 2007 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:12:40 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] sources for wheel weight kits? In-Reply-To: <695756.69589.qm@web30809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <695756.69589.qm@web30809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47744D88.30901@milleredp.com> > Matt's advice is spot-on. We often put a small piece > of racers/duct tape over the weights if we're racing, > but for normal use, the adhesive sticks plenty well. The aluminum tape that's really used for ducts (as opposed to the fabric gaffer's tape) works very well for this purpose, it forms around the weight and sticks quite well. John. From foxtrapper at aceweb.com Thu Dec 27 19:30:19 2007 From: foxtrapper at aceweb.com (foxtrapper at aceweb.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:30:19 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] sources for wheel weight kits? Message-ID: <14a4929fa84f48528e6c0cd754c6ac38.foxtrapper@aceweb.com> If you don't care how pretty the weights are, you can find plenty of them free on the parking lot of tire shops. They generally don't care about you scrounging them off the pavement there. From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Dec 29 16:22:57 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:22:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup Message-ID: <272559.28271.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I got a new Eastwood catalog yesterday, and they are advertising a $129 kit to convert a regular pressure pot blaster to a soda blaster. (They also sell a couple of blasters with the kit already installed.) Has anybody ever tried soda blasting? Do you think a kit like this will have enough mojo to do a car body in a reasonable amount of time? This sounds a lot more appealing than doing my whole car body with paint stripper! Doug From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sat Dec 29 16:50:37 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:50:37 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Air-powered nibbler at Horrible Freight In-Reply-To: <20071208045702.DMWO16492.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> Message-ID: <20071229235038.KNJX7470.mta13.adelphia.net@randall> > Has anyone tried out one of these nibblers ? > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46061 > > Does it really use that much air ? Or did the ad writer goof > and quote the SCFM number ? Just wanted to report : I picked up the nibbler and used it; worked great for what I needed to do (which was to enlarge a 5" opening in an existing flat-sided air duct to 8"). Didn't try to measure the air consumption, but it must be a misprint; worked just fine with my little 110v 25 gal air compressor. Seemed to use even less air than my "4 cfm" die grinder, so I'd guess maybe the number on HF's site was in SCFM. Thanks again to everyone who responded. Randall From mark at noakes.com Sat Dec 29 18:07:27 2007 From: mark at noakes.com (mark at noakes.com) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:07:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup Message-ID: <20282539.377041198976847263.JavaMail.mail@webmail01> B I got the same catalog and saw that too. Soda blasters are usually a lot more expensive than that, so I may consider it as well. I have never used soda to blast, but I do know that it is the preferred method for fiberglass bodies and has been used on Corvettes for years. I have an old Lotus, and they have extremely fragile bodies (so thin that you can clearly see light thru them when not painted) so that's why I am interested. I don't know that there would be a major advantage to soda blasting for metal car bodies. I have a blast cabinet where I do glass bead for most items and walnut shells for engine parts and fragile items. My understanding is that soda can handle both tasks. Mark NoakesB On Dec 29, 2007, doug at dougbraun.com wrote: Hello, I got a new Eastwood catalog yesterday, and they are advertising a $129 kit to convert a regular pressure pot blaster to a soda blaster. (They also sell a couple of blasters with the kit already installed.) Has anybody ever tried soda blasting? B Do you think a kit like this will have enough mojo to do a car body in a reasonable amount of time? B This sounds a lot more appealing than doing my whole car body with paint stripper! Doug _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net B http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as mark at noakes.com Shop-talk mailing list http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk http://www.team.net/archive From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Dec 29 19:32:53 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:32:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup In-Reply-To: <20282539.377041198976847263.JavaMail.mail@webmail01> Message-ID: <117271.4269.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I don't know that there would be a major advantage > to soda blasting for metal car bodies. For me, the advantage of soda over regular blasting is that I could do the outside of the body without getting media in every nook and cranny of the body interior, chassis, engine, etc. At the moment, my car's body is refinished on the bottom and is sitting on the restored frame and drivetrain, and I really don't want to have to remove it again. Doug From eltonclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 20:07:21 2007 From: eltonclark at gmail.com (Elton E. (Tony) Clark) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:07:21 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup In-Reply-To: <20282539.377041198976847263.JavaMail.mail@webmail01> References: <20282539.377041198976847263.JavaMail.mail@webmail01> Message-ID: *Seek a lot of experienced advice on this . . a little shop blaster would be agonizingly slow in stripping a whole car . . Talking to a commercial media blast company for ideas would be clever.* ** From shiples at comcast.net Sat Dec 29 20:43:25 2007 From: shiples at comcast.net (Steve Shipley) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:43:25 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup In-Reply-To: <117271.4269.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20282539.377041198976847263.JavaMail.mail@webmail01> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071229192322.02f36bc0@mail.comcast.net> At 06:32 PM 12/29/2007 -0800, Doug Braun wrote: > > I don't know that there would be a major advantage > > to soda blasting for metal car bodies. > >For me, the advantage of soda over regular blasting is >that I could do the outside of the body without >getting media in every nook and cranny of the body >interior, chassis, engine, etc. They say soda turns to dust on impact. So you don't get media in every nook and cranny. Where's the dust gonna go? I snag a certain amount with my Ionic Breeze but it's still pretty dusty around here without pressure blasting car bodies. One of the local restoration specialists had an Elan soda blasted in the early 1990's and claimed that cleanup was a pain. My assumption is that Eastwood's process is different. > At the moment, my >car's body is refinished on the bottom and is sitting >on the restored frame and drivetrain, and I really >don't want to have to remove it again. I googled and found this comment....whatever it means And the little attachments that they sell to convert to soda blasting for $120 some dollars you can get at lowes for a couple of dollars. It seems to me that Eastwood products are often found elsewhere at considerable savings. From doug at dougbraun.com Sat Dec 29 20:59:51 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:59:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20071229192322.02f36bc0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <729710.57530.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That's definitely true! Doug > It seems to me that Eastwood products are often > found elsewhere at > considerable savings. From mikey at b2systems.com Sun Dec 30 01:35:23 2007 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 00:35:23 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup In-Reply-To: <272559.28271.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <272559.28271.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071230002123.08031928@b2systems.com> Wait a few days :) Mr. UPS dropped mine off on Friday evening but I was busy on other things today and will be tomorrow, its my plan to play before the new year. I purchased the small blaster and not a kit to convert since my blaster is really a friends who loaned it to me years ago, I did not want to convert his blaster. At 03:22 PM 12/29/2007, Doug Braun wrote: >Hello, > >I got a new Eastwood catalog yesterday, and they are >advertising a $129 kit to convert a regular pressure >pot blaster to a soda blaster. (They also sell a >couple of blasters with the kit already installed.) > >Has anybody ever tried soda blasting? Do you think a >kit like this will have enough mojo to do a car body >in a reasonable amount of time? This sounds a lot >more appealing than doing my whole car body with paint >stripper! > >Doug From paul.mele at usermail.com Sun Dec 30 11:18:27 2007 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:18:27 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] winter time: reformat info In-Reply-To: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> References: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> Message-ID: <00c201c84b10$601ccfc0$20566f40$@mele@usermail.com> In tabular form for your scrapbook... Coolant Corrosion additive check Coolant NEG Radiator Tank POS Voltage Meaning <0.2 V OK 0.21-0.49 Borderline 0.5-0.69 Bad >=0.7 Replace Immediately Easy way to check for radiator corrosion protection, just as important as checking the antifreeze, if the coolant is allowed to become "acidic" the engine and radiator will also become corroded with rust. Using a volt-ohm meter (VOM) set it to a DC voltage range that measure in "tenths" of a volt, remove the cap and place the negative VOM lead into coolant, being very careful not to touch any other part of the radiator. Place the Positive lead of the VOM against a bare metal part of the radiator (or a good ground of the engine), a reading of 0.2 volts or less, coolant is in good shape, a reading of 0.5 volts it is borderline, 0.7 volts replace your coolant immediatly. This comes from my "Model A" workshop manual and also says it works in modern cars as well, which is really more important because of aluminum heads or dissimilar metals in modern cars. From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 11:33:19 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:33:19 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] winter time: reformat info In-Reply-To: <1860741968148532607@unknownmsgid> References: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> <1860741968148532607@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712301033s56dff4e9t3c8a8d71fdccf385@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 30, 2007 1:18 PM, Paul Mele wrote: > > This comes from my "Model A" workshop manual and also says > it works in modern > cars as well, which is really more important because of > aluminum heads or > dissimilar metals in modern cars. In modern cars, if there's any voltage between the coolant and the ground, you've got an electrical problem, not one with your antifeeze! -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From paul.mele at usermail.com Sun Dec 30 11:38:40 2007 From: paul.mele at usermail.com (Paul Mele) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:38:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] winter time; grounded radiator frame? In-Reply-To: <2400a5d40712221327p60ea43e3hea2f035128713ba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> <2400a5d40712221327p60ea43e3hea2f035128713ba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c501c84b13$331efdb0$995cf910$@mele@usermail.com> Anybody know how common plastic or other non-conductive radiator tanks are in the past 10 years? BMW started with plastic + alum core over 20 years ago. No ground path from rad. Mtg to chassis. <> From dmscheidt at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 12:04:16 2007 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:04:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] winter time; grounded radiator frame? In-Reply-To: <1793634055955693077@unknownmsgid> References: <001401c84440$6c0790d0$f71f7247@fred8kwiskhcfu> <2400a5d40712221327p60ea43e3hea2f035128713ba2@mail.gmail.com> <1793634055955693077@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <2400a5d40712301104y19561c23wfdd477d1c0d67ff2@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 30, 2007 1:38 PM, Paul Mele wrote: > Anybody know how common plastic or other non-conductive > radiator tanks are in the past 10 years? > BMW started with plastic + alum core over 20 years ago. No > ground path from rad. Mtg to chassis. > Of course there's a ground path. Coolant is conductive! -- David Scheidt dmscheidt at gmail.com From jandkstone99 at msn.com Sun Dec 30 19:10:14 2007 From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:10:14 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing Stuff in Garage "Attic" Message-ID: I am running out of storage space in my garage. I could create more just by getting rid of some of the stuff that I know I'll never use, but that's no fun. I'd like to turn the space above the ceiling trusses into 'dead' storage for car parts that I am keeping 'just in case'. Unfortunately, I didn't think of this when we designed the garage a few years ago and the trusses are just 2 x 4's attached to each other with metal joining plates (I assume they have a more technical name). The total length is 20 feet, which is achieved by joining a 2 x 12 to a 2 x 8; these are butt joints with a plate on each side. I know these trusses aren't designed to carry a heavy load, but how much can I put up there without worrying about the whole thing falling down? Can I reinforce it? I'm not thinking about anything too heavy, but could easily end up with 3-400 pounds spread across multiple trusses. Any advice appreciated and I absolve anyone from any legal obligations should things come tumbling down. Thanks, Jim _________________________________________________________________ im is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect From roadsters at hornesystemstx.com Sun Dec 30 19:29:01 2007 From: roadsters at hornesystemstx.com (Pat Horne) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:29:01 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing Stuff in Garage "Attic" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477853ED.5020402@hornesystemstx.com> Jim, There is a lot more that needs to be known before any suggested design is presented. Whether you have snow in your area, or high winds will be needed to be known at a minimum. I suggest that you contact a local structural engineer to look at what is now in place and draw up a set of plans for the modifications. It will cost $100~$200 for the work, but you will be safe working under whatever load is present in the attic. If you don't need to get a permit to do the work, the engineer may be able to just sketch out what needs to be done, or just tell you. both of which would cost less than formal plans. Peace, Pat Thusly spake Jim Stone: > I am running out of storage space in my garage. I could create more just by > getting rid of some of the stuff that I know I'll never use, but that's no > fun. I'd like to turn the space above the ceiling trusses into 'dead' storage > for car parts that I am keeping 'just in case'. Unfortunately, I didn't think > of this when we designed the garage a few years ago and the trusses are just 2 > x 4's attached to each other with metal joining plates (I assume they have a > more technical name). The total length is 20 feet, which is achieved by > joining a 2 x 12 to a 2 x 8; these are butt joints with a plate on each side. > I know these trusses aren't designed to carry a heavy load, but how much can I > put up there without worrying about the whole thing falling down? Can I > reinforce it? I'm not thinking about anything too heavy, but could easily end > up with 3-400 pounds spread across multiple trusses. > > Any advice appreciated and I absolve anyone from any legal obligations should > things come tumbling down. > > Thanks, > > Jim > > _________________________________________________________________ > im is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a > difference. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as roadsters at hornesystemstx.com > > Shop-talk mailing list > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > -- Pat Horne, Owner, Horne Systems (512) 797-7501 Voice 5026 FM 2001 Pat at HorneSystemsTx.com Lockhart, TX 78644-4443 www.hornesystemstx.com -- We support Habitat for Humanity - a hand UP, not a hand OUT -- From mikey at b2systems.com Sun Dec 30 20:57:04 2007 From: mikey at b2systems.com (Mike Rambour) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 19:57:04 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup In-Reply-To: <729710.57530.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20071229192322.02f36bc0@mail.comcast.net> <729710.57530.qm@web615.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071230194824.05084908@b2systems.com> Absolutely, it took me less than 2 minutes to figure out the manufacturer of the Eastwood Soda Blaster and buy mine for $120 less than EW. Some things at EW are EW only but that time is long gone now and they only buy from others. I did take me about 5 minutes to find the manufacturer of their English Wheels but he claimed he had to sell them for more than EW does so I would only save on shipping, I still don't have one. I still buy from EW most of the time, their customer support is the best with no competition even close but my loyalty does not have a extra 0 in it when I can save $120, if it was $12 I would have gone with EW just to support them. I know several people on the EW forum have given EW a bad time about the cost of their kit to convert a blaster because its just some minor plumbing parts, I got the small blaster so I am happy. I also have to agree with the one poster who said that doing the entire car might be more work than its worth, for me its for doing the small parts (although a 1934 Singer body is awfully small) and also for doing some prep work on some car parts that I don't want glass beads into, since cleanup of the soda is dead easy and it won't harm the motor if I don't get it all out, with glass beads I ultra-sonic clean the parts after glass beading and never had a problem but often worried, with soda it can remain in if you want since it will disolve in the oil, I wont try that though :) mike At 07:59 PM 12/29/2007, Doug Braun wrote: >That's definitely true! > >Doug > > > It seems to me that Eastwood products are often > > found elsewhere at > > considerable savings. >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as mikey at b2systems.com > >Shop-talk mailing list > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shop-talk > >http://www.team.net/archive ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Rambour Bug Writer err...Programmer mikey at b2systems.com ******************************************************************************* http://www.dinospider.com/ all about the ULTIMATE ALMOST a Ferrari http://www.singercars.com/ all about the ULTIMATE BRITISH sports car ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From doug at dougbraun.com Sun Dec 30 22:59:23 2007 From: doug at dougbraun.com (Doug Braun) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:59:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Cheap Eastwood Soda Blasting Setup In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071230194824.05084908@b2systems.com> Message-ID: <848964.51267.qm@web604.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So, how is the soda blasting setup actually different from a regular sandblaster? Any idea what might happen if you simply poured blasting soda into a regular sandblaster? Doug --- Mike Rambour wrote: > Absolutely, it took me less than 2 minutes to > figure out the > manufacturer of the Eastwood Soda Blaster and buy > mine for $120 less > than EW. From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Dec 31 06:22:03 2007 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 08:22:03 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing Stuff in Garage "Attic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20071231082203.00b62de0@pop.east.cox.net> Jim Stone wrote: >I am running out of storage space in my garage.... >I'd like to turn the space above the ceiling trusses into 'dead' storage >for car parts that I am keeping 'just in case'. Jim, My attic is over the house. It has 2"x4" trusses holding the roof and anchored to the ceiling joists. I went into the attic and made shelves in the trusses, and shelving over the heating/AC ducting for storage. (I've emailed Jim pictures of this privately. If anyone would like to see the pictures, please email me, and I'll send you the pictures.) My trusses are about 2' apart. So I took a 4'x8' piece of 1/2" plywood and cut it into 4 pieces 2'x4'. Then took some 2x4s and cut them to 4' lengths. I held them in place so that the ends of the 2x4s were at the outter edges of the trusses and screwed the 2x4 rails to the on the inside of the trusses with 3 drywall screw at each end. I also cut a 2x4 and screwed it across the back of the trusses so I didn't push stuff off the back of the shelfs. Then I layed the 2'x4' piece of plywood on the 2 rails. I did find that over the years the plywood sagged so I added 2 cross stringers between the 2x4 rails, the stringers were also 2"x4" with the metal hangers. I don't know about your garage, but mine is finished with drywall on the ceiling and I have a room over the garage. A neighbor (that doesn't have a room over the garage) hung shelves from his ceiling joists. I liked that idea and I did the same thing. Only problem I had was I had to cut a lot larger section of ceiling drywall out to get a drill in the void so I could drill a hole in the ceiling joist. I then hung a 2x4 down from there. I took another 2x4 and screwed it to the wall studs and formed some shelving. If you're interested in pictures of what I did here, let me know and I'll take some. I thought I had some, but I can't find them. (Again, if anyone wants pictures of what I did in my finished garage, email me and I'll send you some pictures of the hanging shelves.) Hope this gives you some ideas. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Mon Dec 31 10:21:02 2007 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:21:02 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing Stuff in Garage "Attic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071231172101.DVBU15255.mta9.adelphia.net@randall> > Unfortunately, I > didn't think of this when we designed the garage a few years > ago and the trusses are just 2 x 4's attached to each other > with metal joining plates (I assume they have a more > technical name). Jim, if I'm understanding you correctly, those joints won't take much side load at all. My suggestion would be to add another 2x4 that overlaps the joint and is bolted to the original ones. You also didn't mention what centers they are on; if they are wider than 24" then I would also add additional joists between the existing ones. (My garage was built with trusses on 4' centers.) Randall From cak at dimebank.com Mon Dec 31 10:32:39 2007 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:32:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Shop-talk] Storing Stuff in Garage "Attic" Message-ID: <200712311732.lBVHWdDQ032259@moose.dimebank.com> My garage is stick-framed, rather than using pre-built trusses, but each set of roof beams has a 2x6 stringer across at the top plate. These are spaced on 24". My garage is small, and I need all the storage I can get, so I had always planned to put something up there. But... I have skylights in the roof, because I like working natural light whenever possible. (The entire place is painted white or covered in white showerboard.) What I did was cut 2x4s to fit between the stringers, and hang them at about 30" with Simpson Strong-Tie brackets designed for this. At the "ends", I used 2x6 instead (you'll see why). I did this between alternating pairs, so I can stick my head up between two stringers and put stuff on either side. Across the short 2x4s, I put (white!) wire shelving that I bought at the big box store - I think it's the Rubbermaid shelving stuff. This nestles 2" below the top of the 2x6s, so the boxes are prevented from sliding off in either direction or off the ends. This has worked well for me. I don't put very heavy stuff up there. You have to pick storage boxes that you can hoist over head, and that will fit in the ~20" space between the stringers! The first boxes I chose were too big, and too tempting to overfill.