From anne at mibv.com Thu Jan 3 21:30:07 2013 From: anne at mibv.com (Anne) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 05:30:07 +0100 Subject: [Mini] Fueling issue Message-ID: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> Hi Guys & Girls, 1st of all; happy Mini-ing again this year. Excuses for the 'spamming' to those who are on 'both lists'. The Van has been back on the road for about two months now and since then I've clocked about 2200 miles with it in 3 countries, loving almost every minute of it. The only exception is when it dies again. For some reason every now and then it seems like the petrol can't make it's way (fast enough?) to the carb and after some sputtering the engine will die alltogether. In almost every instance I added some fuel in the fueltank after which it would run again for at least a couple of hours, but at times also a couple of days. I haven't been able to pinpoint what is causing this as there isn't a really clear situation when it happens. The Van has the tank in the back with a fuel line running under the car, coming up along the bulkhead connecting to a fuel filter and then to a (new) facet pump mounted on the bulkhead. From there a line runs past the rockercover to the HIF44 carb which is mounted just behind the grill. It has an open air filter, with a shield in front and over it. The carb is connected with a pipe to the Supercharger. When it has stalled the facet pump is always ratteling like crazy. That by itself does not really say much; it can also do that while cruising. Another thing I noticed is that in all cases the fuel filter is empty. When it fills again the engine starts and runs no problem. But that also is not a tell-all; at time the egnine will run (idle) just fine while there does not seem to be any fuel in the filter. The first 3 times it happened while driving about 50mph on B-roads and stopping for about a minute seemed to help. But it also happens while driving on the highway at about 70mph. I didn't have a fuellevelmeter installed until last weekend, and initially I thought the problem arose when I had used about 16l (tank is/should be about 25l) so maybe not all the fuel in the tank was sucked up properly. But it also has occurred a couple of times where I could only add 5-8l before the tank was full again. Today it started to sputter on the highway again and when I let it roll out to a gas station (which had unmarked police vehicles waiting for people to speed by, so I guess my Karma is still good :)), I could only get about 8l in there. As I also suspected the tank creating a vacuum, I removed part of the inner workings of a fuelcap and drilled a (small) hole through it, which should make sure it always can get air in. A couple of ideas I have left to try is; 1. Hook up a small light to the facet pump to see if it maybe falls without power sometimes 2. See if I can find a place to install a Fuel King Filter and presure regulator. These seem to be quite big though. 3. Use a net-stocking instead of a fuelcap to make sure it's not a tank vacuum issue. 4. Disable the power to the facet fuel pump to see how long the engine keeps running when no new fuel is coming. 5. Transfer all the fuel out of the tank, and add it again per liter to see from what point onwards the fuel is picked up. The main problem is that the circumstances under which it occurs never seem to be the same two times in a row. I've had a similar issue before which turned out to be an air leak in an old fuel line. But these lines are new and most are not of the old black cracking, but of the flexible PVC(?) see through type. So long story short; Any one you have any ideas what (else) I can do/check in order to get rid of this issue? Anne [MIBV again :] From tom at carrott.org Fri Jan 4 02:23:17 2013 From: tom at carrott.org (Tom Parker) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 22:23:17 +1300 Subject: [Mini] Fueling issue In-Reply-To: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> References: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> Message-ID: <50E69F85.3070900@carrott.org> On 04/01/13 17:30, Anne wrote: > The Van has the tank in the back with a fuel line running under the car, > coming up along the bulkhead connecting to a fuel filter and then to a > (new) facet pump mounted on the bulkhead. The pump is above the fuel tank? > Another thing I noticed is that in all cases the fuel filter is empty. > When it fills again the engine starts and runs no problem. > But that also is not a tell-all; at time the egnine will run (idle) just > fine while there does not seem to be any fuel in the filter. Where is the inlet in relation to the outlet on the filter? If the inlet is such that air cannot exit the filter, it won't fill up with fuel. > As I also suspected the tank creating a vacuum, I removed part of the > inner workings of a fuelcap and drilled a (small) hole through it, which > should make sure it always can get air in. The fuel system should be pressurised by the vapour pressure of the petrol. When you open the fuel cap on a modern Japanese car a significant amount of gas exits. > 4. Disable the power to the facet fuel pump to see how long the engine > keeps running when no new fuel is coming. Yes, do this. I found with a delorto carb the car would drive surprisingly far with the fuel pump switched off. > I've had a similar issue before which turned out to be an air leak in an > old fuel line. But these lines are new and most are not of the old black > cracking, but of the flexible PVC(?) see through type. Hopefully nylon, not pvc! I've not heard of plastic or see through fuel hoses on cars. Are you sure they're designed for petrol? I don't know how the facet pump works, if it's above the tank it might stop working if it fills with air. Are you sure you don't have any air leaks? Does the fuel ever get hot on it's way to the pump? That can cause vapour in the line which doesn't pump well. Get a small pressure gauge and connect it to the fuel system between the pump and the carb. If the pressure drops, then you have a problem with the pump, filter or pipes. Could the engine be flooding? I had somewhat similar symptoms once, I stopped at some lights and the engine faltered and stopped. The smell of fuel was strong and it eventually started with wide open throttle. I pulled the fuel pump fuse and was able to drive the rest of the way by inserting it every now and again. I believe the float valve jammed open, after disassembly I never found the reason and it never repeated. From john.bullas at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 02:49:26 2013 From: john.bullas at gmail.com (Dr John C Bullas) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:49:26 +0000 Subject: [Mini] Fueling issue In-Reply-To: References: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> <50E69F85.3070900@carrott.org> Message-ID: On 4 January 2013 09:49, Dr John C Bullas wrote: > Minis do not need a vented cap if the top to bottom vent pipe is > functional, the sealed cap prevents fuel escape if the vehicle is > inverted > > JB > > On 4 January 2013 09:23, Tom Parker wrote: >> On 04/01/13 17:30, Anne wrote: >> >>> The Van has the tank in the back with a fuel line running under the car, >>> coming up along the bulkhead connecting to a fuel filter and then to a >>> (new) facet pump mounted on the bulkhead. >> >> >> The pump is above the fuel tank? >> >>> Another thing I noticed is that in all cases the fuel filter is empty. >>> When it fills again the engine starts and runs no problem. >>> But that also is not a tell-all; at time the egnine will run (idle) just >>> fine while there does not seem to be any fuel in the filter. >> >> >> Where is the inlet in relation to the outlet on the filter? If the inlet is >> such that air cannot exit the filter, it won't fill up with fuel. >> >>> As I also suspected the tank creating a vacuum, I removed part of the >>> inner workings of a fuelcap and drilled a (small) hole through it, which >>> should make sure it always can get air in. >> >> >> The fuel system should be pressurised by the vapour pressure of the petrol. >> When you open the fuel cap on a modern Japanese car a significant amount of >> gas exits. >> >>> 4. Disable the power to the facet fuel pump to see how long the engine >>> keeps running when no new fuel is coming. >> >> >> Yes, do this. I found with a delorto carb the car would drive surprisingly >> far with the fuel pump switched off. >> >>> I've had a similar issue before which turned out to be an air leak in an >>> old fuel line. But these lines are new and most are not of the old black >>> cracking, but of the flexible PVC(?) see through type. >> >> >> Hopefully nylon, not pvc! I've not heard of plastic or see through fuel >> hoses on cars. Are you sure they're designed for petrol? >> >> I don't know how the facet pump works, if it's above the tank it might stop >> working if it fills with air. Are you sure you don't have any air leaks? >> Does the fuel ever get hot on it's way to the pump? That can cause vapour in >> the line which doesn't pump well. >> >> Get a small pressure gauge and connect it to the fuel system between the >> pump and the carb. If the pressure drops, then you have a problem with the >> pump, filter or pipes. >> >> Could the engine be flooding? I had somewhat similar symptoms once, I >> stopped at some lights and the engine faltered and stopped. The smell of >> fuel was strong and it eventually started with wide open throttle. I pulled >> the fuel pump fuse and was able to drive the rest of the way by inserting it >> every now and again. I believe the float valve jammed open, after >> disassembly I never found the reason and it never repeated. >> _______________________________________________ >> Mini-list at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.75 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mini-list/john.bullas at gmail.com >> > > > > -- > > > > =========================== > http://uk.linkedin.com/in/drjohnbullas -- =========================== http://uk.linkedin.com/in/drjohnbullas From bnicho74 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 02:54:50 2013 From: bnicho74 at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?Ym5pY2hvNzRAZ21haWwuY29t?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 20:54:50 +1100 Subject: [Mini] =?utf-8?q?Fueling_issue?= Message-ID: <50e6a718.a54d420a.088f.25c7@mx.google.com> Early vans do not have a vent on the tank. They have to use a vented cap. I found this out the hard way! It sounds to me like Anne's problem is a partially blocked pickup in the tank. Some van tanks have a filter on the pickup pipe in the tank. The only way to get to it is through the sender hole. Cheers, Brett Sent from my HTC ----- Reply message ----- From: "Dr John C Bullas" To: "Mini-List" Subject: [Mini] Fueling issue Date: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 8:49 pm On 4 January 2013 09:49, Dr John C Bullas wrote: > Minis do not need a vented cap if the top to bottom vent pipe is > functional, the sealed cap prevents fuel escape if the vehicle is > inverted > > JB > > On 4 January 2013 09:23, Tom Parker wrote: >> On 04/01/13 17:30, Anne wrote: >> >>> The Van has the tank in the back with a fuel line running under the car, >>> coming up along the bulkhead connecting to a fuel filter and then to a >>> (new) facet pump mounted on the bulkhead. >> >> >> The pump is above the fuel tank? >> >>> Another thing I noticed is that in all cases the fuel filter is empty. >>> When it fills again the engine starts and runs no problem. >>> But that also is not a tell-all; at time the egnine will run (idle) just >>> fine while there does not seem to be any fuel in the filter. >> >> >> Where is the inlet in relation to the outlet on the filter? If the inlet is >> such that air cannot exit the filter, it won't fill up with fuel. >> >>> As I also suspected the tank creating a vacuum, I removed part of the >>> inner workings of a fuelcap and drilled a (small) hole through it, which >>> should make sure it always can get air in. >> >> >> The fuel system should be pressurised by the vapour pressure of the petrol. >> When you open the fuel cap on a modern Japanese car a significant amount of >> gas exits. >> >>> 4. Disable the power to the facet fuel pump to see how long the engine >>> keeps running when no new fuel is coming. >> >> >> Yes, do this. I found with a delorto carb the car would drive surprisingly >> far with the fuel pump switched off. >> >>> I've had a similar issue before which turned out to be an air leak in an >>> old fuel line. But these lines are new and most are not of the old black >>> cracking, but of the flexible PVC(?) see through type. >> >> >> Hopefully nylon, not pvc! I've not heard of plastic or see through fuel >> hoses on cars. Are you sure they're designed for petrol? >> >> I don't know how the facet pump works, if it's above the tank it might stop >> working if it fills with air. Are you sure you don't have any air leaks? >> Does the fuel ever get hot on it's way to the pump? That can cause vapour in >> the line which doesn't pump well. >> >> Get a small pressure gauge and connect it to the fuel system between the >> pump and the carb. If the pressure drops, then you have a problem with the >> pump, filter or pipes. >> >> Could the engine be flooding? I had somewhat similar symptoms once, I >> stopped at some lights and the engine faltered and stopped. The smell of >> fuel was strong and it eventually started with wide open throttle. I pulled >> the fuel pump fuse and was able to drive the rest of the way by inserting it >> every now and again. I believe the float valve jammed open, after >> disassembly I never found the reason and it never repeated. >> _______________________________________________ >> Mini-list at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.75 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mini-list/john.bullas at gmail.com >> > > > > -- > > > > =========================== > http://uk.linkedin.com/in/drjohnbullas -- =========================== http://uk.linkedin.com/in/drjohnbullas _______________________________________________ Mini-list at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mini-list/bnicho74 at gmail.com From ricp at minijem.plus.com Fri Jan 4 03:49:37 2013 From: ricp at minijem.plus.com (Richard Porter) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:49:37 GMT Subject: [Mini] [minElist] Fueling issue In-Reply-To: <50E65A34.1000004@mibv.com> References: <50E65A34.1000004@mibv.com> Message-ID: On 4 Jan 2013 Anne wrote: > For some reason every now and then it seems like the petrol can't make > it's way (fast enough?) to the carb and after some sputtering the engine > will die alltogether. I had this happen when I first built my car (Mini Marcos). I'd used a non-vented filler cap on a van tank. I don't think any van/estate tanks have vent pipes. If this is the case you'll notice an inrush of air when you undo the filler cap after the car appears to run out of fuel. If you're only doing short journeys the air will leak in but on a longer trip a vacuum will build up in the tank. -- Richard Porter http://www.minijem.plus.com/ mailto:ricp at minijem.plus.com I don't want a "user experience" - I just want stuff that works. From tkmvs at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 06:11:39 2013 From: tkmvs at hotmail.com (TVS) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:11:39 +0000 Subject: [Mini] Fueling issue In-Reply-To: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> References: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> Message-ID: Facet fuel pump should ideally be gravity fed from tank. Could be vapour locking, keep fuel line away from heat too! Had a lot of trouble with this in a Midget. Also as not helped as fuel being sucked by pump and not under pressure - hence it rattles away when really it should be just ticking over when demand low. Sorry but short, typing on my phone! Toby On 4 Jan 2013, at 04:30 AM, Anne wrote: > Hi Guys & Girls, > > 1st of all; happy Mini-ing again this year. > > Excuses for the 'spamming' to those who are on 'both lists'. > > The Van has been back on the road for about two months now and since then I've clocked about 2200 miles with it in 3 countries, loving almost every minute of it. > > The only exception is when it dies again. > > For some reason every now and then it seems like the petrol can't make it's way (fast enough?) to the carb and after some sputtering the engine will die alltogether. > > In almost every instance I added some fuel in the fueltank after which it would run again for at least a couple of hours, but at times also a couple of days. > > I haven't been able to pinpoint what is causing this as there isn't a really clear situation when it happens. > > The Van has the tank in the back with a fuel line running under the car, coming up along the bulkhead connecting to a fuel filter and then to a (new) facet pump mounted on the bulkhead. From there a line runs past the rockercover to the HIF44 carb which is mounted just behind the grill. It has an open air filter, with a shield in front and over it. > > The carb is connected with a pipe to the Supercharger. > > When it has stalled the facet pump is always ratteling like crazy. > That by itself does not really say much; it can also do that while cruising. > > Another thing I noticed is that in all cases the fuel filter is empty. > When it fills again the engine starts and runs no problem. > But that also is not a tell-all; at time the egnine will run (idle) just fine while there does not seem to be any fuel in the filter. > > The first 3 times it happened while driving about 50mph on B-roads and stopping for about a minute seemed to help. > > But it also happens while driving on the highway at about 70mph. > > I didn't have a fuellevelmeter installed until last weekend, and initially I thought the problem arose when I had used about 16l (tank is/should be about 25l) so maybe not all the fuel in the tank was sucked up properly. > > But it also has occurred a couple of times where I could only add 5-8l before the tank was full again. Today it started to sputter on the highway again and when I let it roll out to a gas station (which had unmarked police vehicles waiting for people to speed by, so I guess my Karma is still good :)), I could only get about 8l in there. > > As I also suspected the tank creating a vacuum, I removed part of the inner workings of a fuelcap and drilled a (small) hole through it, which should make sure it always can get air in. > > A couple of ideas I have left to try is; > > 1. Hook up a small light to the facet pump to see if it maybe falls without power sometimes > > 2. See if I can find a place to install a Fuel King Filter and presure regulator. These seem to be quite big though. > > 3. Use a net-stocking instead of a fuelcap to make sure it's not a tank vacuum issue. > > 4. Disable the power to the facet fuel pump to see how long the engine keeps running when no new fuel is coming. > > 5. Transfer all the fuel out of the tank, and add it again per liter to see from what point onwards the fuel is picked up. > > The main problem is that the circumstances under which it occurs never seem to be the same two times in a row. > > I've had a similar issue before which turned out to be an air leak in an old fuel line. But these lines are new and most are not of the old black cracking, but of the flexible PVC(?) see through type. > > So long story short; > > Any one you have any ideas what (else) I can do/check in order to get rid of this issue? > > Anne > [MIBV again :] > _______________________________________________ > Mini-list at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mini-list/tkmvs at hotmail.com From fritss at ps.gen.nz Fri Jan 4 13:02:48 2013 From: fritss at ps.gen.nz (Frits Schouten) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 08:02:48 +1200 Subject: [Mini] Fueling issue In-Reply-To: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> References: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> Message-ID: <20130104195817.M69839@ps.gen.nz> Hi Anne, did you check the filter in the tank? It's quit coarse but, over the years, it can block up. The point you make that the car runs okay for a few hours after a refill makes me think that the refill just disturbs the debris around that filter enough to make it go for a while. That's my 5cts worth. Cheers, Frits. On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 05:30:07 +0100, Anne wrote > Hi Guys & Girls, > > 1st of all; happy Mini-ing again this year. > > Excuses for the 'spamming' to those who are on 'both lists'. > > The Van has been back on the road for about two months now and since > then I've clocked about 2200 miles with it in 3 countries, loving > almost every minute of it. > > The only exception is when it dies again. > > For some reason every now and then it seems like the petrol can't > make it's way (fast enough?) to the carb and after some sputtering > the engine will die alltogether. > > In almost every instance I added some fuel in the fueltank after > which it would run again for at least a couple of hours, but at > times also a couple of days. > > I haven't been able to pinpoint what is causing this as there isn't > a really clear situation when it happens. > > The Van has the tank in the back with a fuel line running under the > car, coming up along the bulkhead connecting to a fuel filter and > then to a > (new) facet pump mounted on the bulkhead. From there a line runs > past the rockercover to the HIF44 carb which is mounted just behind > the grill. It has an open air filter, with a shield in front and > over it. > > The carb is connected with a pipe to the Supercharger. > > When it has stalled the facet pump is always ratteling like crazy. > That by itself does not really say much; it can also do that while cruising. > > Another thing I noticed is that in all cases the fuel filter is > empty. When it fills again the engine starts and runs no problem. > But that also is not a tell-all; at time the egnine will run (idle) > just fine while there does not seem to be any fuel in the filter. > > The first 3 times it happened while driving about 50mph on B-roads > and stopping for about a minute seemed to help. > > But it also happens while driving on the highway at about 70mph. > > I didn't have a fuellevelmeter installed until last weekend, and > initially I thought the problem arose when I had used about 16l > (tank is/should be about 25l) so maybe not all the fuel in the tank > was sucked up properly. > > But it also has occurred a From ian.donald at defence.gov.au Sun Jan 6 15:10:49 2013 From: ian.donald at defence.gov.au (Donald, Ian MR) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:10:49 +1100 Subject: [Mini] Fueling issue [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] In-Reply-To: <20130104195817.M69839@ps.gen.nz> References: <50E65ACF.40404@mibv.com> <20130104195817.M69839@ps.gen.nz> Message-ID: <197D0051B78463449E74DCFD985A940604585DDC6C@CARRXM01.drn.mil.au> UNCLASSIFIED I'm with Frits. I've just replaced the atnk on my Traveller and cleaned out the new tank first. Howerver, I cannot see how the little plastic screen at the base of the fuel pickup pipe can be removed to clean properly. If you work it out I'd love to know how. Cheers, Ian Ian Donald ITAR Manager Air Warfare Destroyer R2-6-B071 +61 (0)2 6266 0170 0427 921 819 (Fax) 62642428 'IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Department of Defence and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the Crimes Act 1914. If you have received this email in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies.' -----Original Message----- From: mini-list-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:mini-list-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Frits Schouten Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013 07:03 To: Anne; Mini-List Subject: Re: [Mini] Fueling issue Hi Anne, did you check the filter in the tank? It's quit coarse but, over the years, it can block up. The point you make that the car runs okay for a few hours after a refill makes me think that the refill just disturbs the debris around that filter enough to make it go for a while. That's my 5cts worth. Cheers, Frits. On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 05:30:07 +0100, Anne wrote > Hi Guys & Girls, > > 1st of all; happy Mini-ing again this year. > > Excuses for the 'spamming' to those who are on 'both lists'. > > The Van has been back on the road for about two months now and since > then I've clocked about 2200 miles with it in 3 countries, loving > almost every minute of it. > > The only exception is when it dies again. > > For some reason every now and then it seems like the petrol can't make > it's way (fast enough?) to the carb and after some sputtering the > engine will die alltogether. > > In almost every instance I added some fuel in the fueltank after which > it would run again for at least a couple of hours, but at times also a > couple of days. > > I haven't been able to pinpoint what is causing this as there isn't a > really clear situation when it happens. > > The Van has the tank in the back with a fuel line running under the > car, coming up along the bulkhead connecting to a fuel filter and then > to a > (new) facet pump mounted on the bulkhead. From there a line runs past > the rockercover to the HIF44 carb which is mounted just behind the > grill. It has an open air filter, with a shield in front and over it. > > The carb is connected with a pipe to the Supercharger. > > When it has stalled the facet pump is always ratteling like crazy. > That by itself does not really say much; it can also do that while cruising. > > Another thing I noticed is that in all cases the fuel filter is empty. > When it fills again the engine starts and runs no problem. > But that also is not a tell-all; at time the egnine will run (idle) > just fine while there does not seem to be any fuel in the filter. > > The first 3 times it happened while driving about 50mph on B-roads and > stopping for about a minute seemed to help. > > But it also happens while driving on the highway at about 70mph. > > I didn't have a fuellevelmeter installed until last weekend, and > initially I thought the problem arose when I had used about 16l (tank > is/should be about 25l) so maybe not all the fuel in the tank was > sucked up properly. > > But it also has occurred a _______________________________________________ Mini-list at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mini-list/ian.donald at defence.gov.au IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Department of Defence and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the Crimes Act 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email.