From dave at ranteer.com  Sat Jun  8 10:59:47 2024
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave northrup)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 16:59:47 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] early 5 main mgb engine/starter
Message-ID: <89ff4e762031496483d1c76733ea3067@ranteer.com>

Early 5 main mgb engine in a 58 mga.  Received in kit form; been working on this thing for 18 months.

I think the conclusion is pretty obvious; just looking for confirmation.

The starter would turn the engine over, then just spin.  Wait until it stops, try again.  Usually after a few tries the engine would start.

Now it just spins.  Was that a sign that the starter was going?  Is it now gone?  And doesn't activate the gear so the engine doesn't turn over?
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From allen.k.hess at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 13:30:25 2024
From: allen.k.hess at gmail.com (Allen Hess)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 15:30:25 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] early 5 main mgb engine/starter
Message-ID: <68AAEA57-9B3D-4463-8B03-06A2C3EDA324@gmail.com>

I suggest finding a local shop and having it rebuilt, though those shops are fewer these days. Sounds like the motor is good (?spins?) so problem lies with the pinion, pinion engagement fork or the solenoid is weak and won?t pull/push the fork to engage pinion to flywheel. Outside chance the ring gear is worn. Check Moss for illustrations 33, 45, 46, 48.

Allen Hess


Early 5 main mgb engine in a 58 mga.  Received in kit form; been working on this thing for 18 months. 
 
I think the conclusion is pretty obvious; just looking for confirmation.
 
The starter would turn the engine over, then just spin.  Wait until it stops, try again.  Usually after a few tries the engine would start.
 
Now it just spins.  Was that a sign that the starter was going?  Is it now gone?  And doesn?t activate the gear so the engine doesn?t turn over?
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From mgbobh at gmail.com  Sat Jun  8 16:25:21 2024
From: mgbobh at gmail.com (Robert's New iPad)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:25:21 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] early 5 main mgb engine/starter
In-Reply-To: <89ff4e762031496483d1c76733ea3067@ranteer.com>
References: <89ff4e762031496483d1c76733ea3067@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <FDB38EF0-08B3-43B5-8019-E305922D7260@gmail.com>

Dave,
	There are two types of starters that could be on your engine.  
	Early, like those on MGA, were Bendix-type, in which the inertia of the pinion caused it to unwind on starter motor shaft. It unwound on the coarse threads until the pinion meshed with teeth on the ring gear, then it stopped unwinding and the starter turned Bendix gear and the ring gear to start the engine.
	Later starters were called ?pre-engaged?. In these, power from starter switch moved the electromagnet in the starter solenoid which has a lever that moves the pinion into engagement with the ring gear, then the solenoid powers the starter, which turns the gear and ring gear.
	If your starter is a cylinder, only a cylinder, like the cylinder-shape of the dynamo, it is Bendix type. If it has not been used in 18 months, it is possible that the Bendix gear is hanging on a tiny bit of rust on the coarse threads, so the Bendix is not turning the ring gear.   Disassemble, clean the threads, use a dry lubricant like teflon or graphite, and it should work as new. 
	If it is the later type, which you can identify by a smaller cylinder mounted on the starter, in line with its shaft, yours is pre-engaged.  You say the starter spins, so it is probably OK, the problem being non-engagement.  I would check again for free movement of the pinion. I?ve never faced this with a pre-engaged, but I don?t rule that out.
Bob


> On Jun 8, 2024, at 1:33?PM, dave northrup <dave at ranteer.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Early 5 main mgb engine in a 58 mga.  Received in kit form; been working on this thing for 18 months. 
>  
> I think the conclusion is pretty obvious; just looking for confirmation.
>  
> The starter would turn the engine over, then just spin.  Wait until it stops, try again.  Usually after a few tries the engine would start.
>  
> Now it just spins.  Was that a sign that the starter was going?  Is it now gone?  And doesn?t activate the gear so the engine doesn?t turn over?
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
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From lrc at red4est.com  Sat Jun  8 17:14:32 2024
From: lrc at red4est.com (Larry Colen)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 16:14:32 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] early 5 main mgb engine/starter
In-Reply-To: <FDB38EF0-08B3-43B5-8019-E305922D7260@gmail.com>
References: <89ff4e762031496483d1c76733ea3067@ranteer.com>
 <FDB38EF0-08B3-43B5-8019-E305922D7260@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9867D74F-AD6B-4518-9ABA-4016AEB9A4AD@red4est.com>

There's always "percussive" maintenance.  :-)

It sounds like the inny-outie thingy-bobber is getting stuck.  Maybe take it out, and if the little gearjobber isn't moving freely, clean and lube it.  On the other hand if the motor isn't spinning fast enough it might not be throwing the gearjobber out far enough to engage with the flywheel.

On second thought, this is probably too technical, never mind me, and pay attention to the guys that actually know what they're talking about.

> On Jun 8, 2024, at 3:25 PM, Robert's New iPad <mgbobh at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dave,
> 	There are two types of starters that could be on your engine.  
> 	Early, like those on MGA, were Bendix-type, in which the inertia of the pinion caused it to unwind on starter motor shaft. It unwound on the coarse threads until the pinion meshed with teeth on the ring gear, then it stopped unwinding and the starter turned Bendix gear and the ring gear to start the engine.
> 	Later starters were called ?pre-engaged?. In these, power from starter switch moved the electromagnet in the starter solenoid which has a lever that moves the pinion into engagement with the ring gear, then the solenoid powers the starter, which turns the gear and ring gear.
> 	If your starter is a cylinder, only a cylinder, like the cylinder-shape of the dynamo, it is Bendix type. If it has not been used in 18 months, it is possible that the Bendix gear is hanging on a tiny bit of rust on the coarse threads, so the Bendix is not turning the ring gear.   Disassemble, clean the threads, use a dry lubricant like teflon or graphite, and it should work as new. 
> 	If it is the later type, which you can identify by a smaller cylinder mounted on the starter, in line with its shaft, yours is pre-engaged.  You say the starter spins, so it is probably OK, the problem being non-engagement.  I would check again for free movement of the pinion. I?ve never faced this with a pre-engaged, but I don?t rule that out.
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Jun 8, 2024, at 1:33?PM, dave northrup <dave at ranteer.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> Early 5 main mgb engine in a 58 mga.  Received in kit form; been working on this thing for 18 months. 
>>  
>> I think the conclusion is pretty obvious; just looking for confirmation.
>>  
>> The starter would turn the engine over, then just spin.  Wait until it stops, try again.  Usually after a few tries the engine would start.
>>  
>> Now it just spins.  Was that a sign that the starter was going?  Is it now gone?  And doesn?t activate the gear so the engine doesn?t turn over?
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>> 
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/lrc at red4est.com

--
Larry Colen
lrc at red4est.com.   sent from Mirkwood




From dave at ranteer.com  Sat Jun  8 17:45:50 2024
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave northrup)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 23:45:50 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] early 5 main mgb engine/starter
Message-ID: <b8fd6ce09def4865bd240353ad795ab2@ranteer.com>

I just removed the starter.  I think its good news that it was stuck and took a hammer to dislodge it.  Interestingly enough, in an MGA, with an early 5 main MGB engine, you have to remove the distributor to get the starter out.  It will not go out under the car.

Its been only a few months since I started and ran the car.

From: dave northrup
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2024 12:00 PM
To: mgs at autox.team.net
Subject: early 5 main mgb engine/starter

Early 5 main mgb engine in a 58 mga.  Received in kit form; been working on this thing for 18 months.

I think the conclusion is pretty obvious; just looking for confirmation.

The starter would turn the engine over, then just spin.  Wait until it stops, try again.  Usually after a few tries the engine would start.

Now it just spins.  Was that a sign that the starter was going?  Is it now gone?  And doesn't activate the gear so the engine doesn't turn over?
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From dave at ranteer.com  Sat Jun  8 17:54:48 2024
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave northrup)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 23:54:48 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] early 5 main mgb engine/starter
Message-ID: <e927097874d0403a9d6846a29b9518ad@ranteer.com>

One lister had suggested the ring gear might be the problem.  I am EXTREMELY happy to report that it looks fine, both teeth and location

From: dave northrup
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2024 6:46 PM
To: mgs at autox.team.net
Subject: RE: early 5 main mgb engine/starter

I just removed the starter.  I think its good news that it was stuck and took a hammer to dislodge it.  Interestingly enough, in an MGA, with an early 5 main MGB engine, you have to remove the distributor to get the starter out.  It will not go out under the car.

Its been only a few months since I started and ran the car.

From: dave northrup
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2024 12:00 PM
To: mgs at autox.team.net
Subject: early 5 main mgb engine/starter

Early 5 main mgb engine in a 58 mga.  Received in kit form; been working on this thing for 18 months.

I think the conclusion is pretty obvious; just looking for confirmation.

The starter would turn the engine over, then just spin.  Wait until it stops, try again.  Usually after a few tries the engine would start.

Now it just spins.  Was that a sign that the starter was going?  Is it now gone?  And doesn't activate the gear so the engine doesn't turn over?
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From mvheim at sonic.net  Sat Jun  8 21:01:12 2024
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 23:01:12 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] early 5 main mgb engine/starter
In-Reply-To: <9867D74F-AD6B-4518-9ABA-4016AEB9A4AD@red4est.com>
References: <9867D74F-AD6B-4518-9ABA-4016AEB9A4AD@red4est.com>
Message-ID: <AF71C392-1F40-44C7-9B02-E1A273122FE0@sonic.net>

Larry took the words right out of my mouth ? his description could scarcely be improved. I got so disgusted with the Bendix starter chewing up its pinion and consequently chewing up the flywheel that I went looking for a 4-synchro trans to swap in (since I was replacing the flywheel anyway). Finding an OD trans made it a win-win.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 8, 2024, at 7:26 PM, Larry Colen <lrc at red4est.com> wrote:
> 
> ?There's always "percussive" maintenance.  :-)
> 
> It sounds like the inny-outie thingy-bobber is getting stuck.  Maybe take it out, and if the little gearjobber isn't moving freely, clean and lube it.  On the other hand if the motor isn't spinning fast enough it might not be throwing the gearjobber out far enough to engage with the flywheel.
> 
> On second thought, this is probably too technical, never mind me, and pay attention to the guys that actually know what they're talking about.
> 
>> On Jun 8, 2024, at 3:25 PM, Robert's New iPad <mgbobh at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Dave,
>>    There are two types of starters that could be on your engine.  
>>    Early, like those on MGA, were Bendix-type, in which the inertia of the pinion caused it to unwind on starter motor shaft. It unwound on the coarse threads until the pinion meshed with teeth on the ring gear, then it stopped unwinding and the starter turned Bendix gear and the ring gear to start the engine.
>>    Later starters were called ?pre-engaged?. In these, power from starter switch moved the electromagnet in the starter solenoid which has a lever that moves the pinion into engagement with the ring gear, then the solenoid powers the starter, which turns the gear and ring gear.
>>    If your starter is a cylinder, only a cylinder, like the cylinder-shape of the dynamo, it is Bendix type. If it has not been used in 18 months, it is possible that the Bendix gear is hanging on a tiny bit of rust on the coarse threads, so the Bendix is not turning the ring gear.   Disassemble, clean the threads, use a dry lubricant like teflon or graphite, and it should work as new. 
>>    If it is the later type, which you can identify by a smaller cylinder mounted on the starter, in line with its shaft, yours is pre-engaged.  You say the starter spins, so it is probably OK, the problem being non-engagement.  I would check again for free movement of the pinion. I?ve never faced this with a pre-engaged, but I don?t rule that out.
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>>>> On Jun 8, 2024, at 1:33?PM, dave northrup <dave at ranteer.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> Early 5 main mgb engine in a 58 mga.  Received in kit form; been working on this thing for 18 months. 
>>> 
>>> I think the conclusion is pretty obvious; just looking for confirmation.
>>> 
>>> The starter would turn the engine over, then just spin.  Wait until it stops, try again.  Usually after a few tries the engine would start.
>>> 
>>> Now it just spins.  Was that a sign that the starter was going?  Is it now gone?  And doesn?t activate the gear so the engine doesn?t turn over?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>> 
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>> 
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/lrc at red4est.com
> 
> --
> Larry Colen
> lrc at red4est.com.   sent from Mirkwood
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net
> 


From dave at ranteer.com  Sat Jun 22 11:52:32 2024
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave northrup)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 17:52:32 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] choke not working
Message-ID: <a91e52f819d24ceb8014f705aebbde14@ranteer.com>

Its an early 5 main mgb engine with HS4's in an MGA.  I have the choke cable hooked up correctly I believe.  Attached are pictures.

When I pull the choke out you can see the lower part move just a little, more like flexing.  What am I missing?
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From dcouncill at karamursel.org  Sat Jun 22 12:23:33 2024
From: dcouncill at karamursel.org (David Councill)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 11:23:33 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] choke not working
In-Reply-To: <a91e52f819d24ceb8014f705aebbde14@ranteer.com>
References: <a91e52f819d24ceb8014f705aebbde14@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <0c104f49-e964-4d8f-9097-0ff1b1eed7ff@karamursel.org>

The important part to look at is the motion of the jets. When you pull 
out the choke, that brass lever will move up and the jets will lower. 
You may need to adjust the brass lever downwards to have a longer travel 
for the jets to go lower. Also, both jets should move downwards 
identically - if not, you may have to adjust the brackets that connect 
to the carb cam fast idle pieces.

David Councill

67 BGT, 64B, 72B

On 6/22/2024 10:52 AM, dave northrup wrote:
>
> Its an early 5 main mgb engine with HS4?s in an MGA.? I have the choke 
> cable hooked up correctly I believe.? Attached are pictures.
>
> When I pull the choke out you can see the lower part move just a 
> little, more like flexing.? What am I missing?
>
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From dave at ranteer.com  Sat Jun 22 13:02:50 2024
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave northrup)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 19:02:50 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] choke not working
In-Reply-To: <0c104f49-e964-4d8f-9097-0ff1b1eed7ff@karamursel.org>
References: <a91e52f819d24ceb8014f705aebbde14@ranteer.com>,
 <0c104f49-e964-4d8f-9097-0ff1b1eed7ff@karamursel.org>
Message-ID: <006fabf3e4e14c3dbbc637c14df2f816@ranteer.com>

The brass part does not move via the cable.  That is my problem.   I can manually move the brass part no problem.   But the cable does nothing when the knob is pulled out although the knob comes out 3/4"


-------- Original message --------
From: David Councill <dcouncill at karamursel.org>
Date: 6/22/24 1:53 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: mgs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Mgs] choke not working


The important part to look at is the motion of the jets. When you pull out the choke, that brass lever will move up and the jets will lower. You may need to adjust the brass lever downwards to have a longer travel for the jets to go lower. Also, both jets should move downwards identically - if not, you may have to adjust the brackets that connect to the carb cam fast idle pieces.

David Councill

67 BGT, 64B, 72B

On 6/22/2024 10:52 AM, dave northrup wrote:
Its an early 5 main mgb engine with HS4?s in an MGA.  I have the choke cable hooked up correctly I believe.  Attached are pictures.

When I pull the choke out you can see the lower part move just a little, more like flexing.  What am I missing?
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From dcouncill at karamursel.org  Sat Jun 22 13:53:33 2024
From: dcouncill at karamursel.org (David Councill)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 12:53:33 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] choke not working
In-Reply-To: <006fabf3e4e14c3dbbc637c14df2f816@ranteer.com>
References: <a91e52f819d24ceb8014f705aebbde14@ranteer.com>
 <0c104f49-e964-4d8f-9097-0ff1b1eed7ff@karamursel.org>
 <006fabf3e4e14c3dbbc637c14df2f816@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <7357a8b2-7057-491c-9c96-422c0d85eced@karamursel.org>

A quick check on my 64B indicates my knob comes out just slightly over 
1" so that might be one thing. Also, when the knob is pushed in, the 
cable above the brass lever should not have any freeplay so you get full 
travel when you do pull out the cable. The pictures indicate correct 
cabling but also verify the cable end is not slipping on that carb choke 
bracket connection? when you pull the knob out.

Now off to test the thermostat replacement on my 67BGT...


On 6/22/2024 12:02 PM, dave northrup wrote:
> The brass part does not move via the cable.? That is my problem. ?I 
> can manually move the brass part no problem.? ?But the cable does 
> nothing when the knob is pulled out although the knob comes out 3/4"
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: David Councill <dcouncill at karamursel.org>
> Date: 6/22/24 1:53 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: mgs at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Mgs] choke not working
>
> The important part to look at is the motion of the jets. When you pull 
> out the choke, that brass lever will move up and the jets will lower. 
> You may need to adjust the brass lever downwards to have a longer 
> travel for the jets to go lower. Also, both jets should move downwards 
> identically - if not, you may have to adjust the brackets that connect 
> to the carb cam fast idle pieces.
>
> David Councill
>
> 67 BGT, 64B, 72B
>
> On 6/22/2024 10:52 AM, dave northrup wrote:
>>
>> Its an early 5 main mgb engine with HS4?s in an MGA.? I have the 
>> choke cable hooked up correctly I believe.? Attached are pictures.
>>
>> When I pull the choke out you can see the lower part move just a 
>> little, more like flexing.? What am I missing?
>>
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From paulbhunt73 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 23 03:12:25 2024
From: paulbhunt73 at gmail.com (Paul Hunt)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 10:12:25 +0100
Subject: [Mgs] choke not working
In-Reply-To: <006fabf3e4e14c3dbbc637c14df2f816@ranteer.com>
References: <a91e52f819d24ceb8014f705aebbde14@ranteer.com>
 <0c104f49-e964-4d8f-9097-0ff1b1eed7ff@karamursel.org>
 <006fabf3e4e14c3dbbc637c14df2f816@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <d8301103-5b93-463e-bc75-38c360406502@gmail.com>

When the choke control is pulled the outer should rise to lift the brass 
lever.

That turns the interconnecting rod which rotates the cams on the carbs.

The first part of that rotation (should be about 1/2" of control 
movement) bears on the fast idle screw to open the throttle butterfly, 
then further rotation pushes the jet lever down for enrichment.

If pulling the control doesn't move the cable outer up to lift the lever 
there is probably too much free play.? To set the choke cable I pull the 
control about half an inch then pull the cable inner through the 
trunnion until the cam is just about to start moving the jets down.? It 
might be surprising just how much inner you have to pull through to get 
that right.

The other thing is that with the control pulled about half way the lever 
should make a right-angle to the cable.? Too low makes it stiff to start 
moving and too high means you can't pull the control far enough for full 
enrichment.

PaulH.

On 22/06/2024 20:02, dave northrup wrote:
> The brass part does not move via the cable.? That is my problem. ?I 
> can manually move the brass part no problem.? ?But the cable does 
> nothing when the knob is pulled out although the knob comes out 3/4"
>
>