From richardolindsay at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 05:41:21 2022 From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 06:41:21 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends Message-ID: Hello friends, Before I comment on my two MGs I'd like to write a few words about a recent trip. Nancy and I just returned from Portugal on a trans-Atlantic repositioning cruise. 13 days sailing from Lisbon to Tampa! Whew! But before that crossing we spent ten days with two of this group's members: Hans Duinhoven in the Netherlands and Rui Gigante in Portugal. I have known both Hans and Rui for over two decades, Hans via this group and Rui via another group, if now he's also here. Rui I met face-to-face in Italy in about 1999, and I met Hans and his wife Tineke face-to-face just a few weeks ago. All are such lovely people. Thank you. I have been absent from this group for ages it seems, although I still read all posts. So here's my update. I currently have two MGs. The '53 TD that I restored a few years back, and a '72 MGB that I'm just finishing 'restoring' to 'driver' status. The TD needed a new brake master cylinder which I installed just before the overseas trip. It works great! So great in fact that it blew out the so-called seals on one 'new' rear slave cylinder, spilling brake fluid everywhere. I'll try to refrain from rude comments about the 'new' cylinder's country of origin but suffice to say, I'm disappointed - again. One question for the MG brain trust: Will the gush of brake fluid within the drum have permanently damaged the new brake shoes' linings, or can the shoes be washed clean with brake cleaner? Said another way; Should I order new brake shoes when I order the new slave cylinder? The MGB just needs one more brake system bleed since it's all new and a few air bubbles are almost certainly hiding in obscure places. That's it for mechanical tweaks. Everything left to do is cosmetic. With that all said, et me conclude by saying it's nice to be back chatting. Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mgbobh at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 08:09:44 2022 From: mgbobh at gmail.com (Robert's New iPad) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:09:44 -0500 Subject: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AECA71D-101A-48BF-89DE-E18FCFA60839@gmail.com> Hi Rick, It?s good to read of your adventures, and to learn of your connection with Hans and Rui whom I know only by this list?s correspondence. Do you still have the original wheel cylinders for TD? Mine were pitted; I bought new. Then I disliked the apparent cheesiness of them so I had my originals sleeved. Many say that you can clean the wet shoes with brake cleaner. Probably so, though I would put one of the contaminated/cleaned shoes on each side, so any loss of effectiveness would be shared. And, I would put that shoe as the ?trailing? shoe on the wheels, as we don?t do much serious braking in reverse. Me? For the cost of a new set of shoes I would buy the set. Check Abingdon Spares site, as not too long ago they were on sale. Bob > On Nov 13, 2022, at 7:41 AM, Richard Lindsay wrote: > > Hello friends, > Before I comment on my two MGs I'd like to write a few words about a recent trip. Nancy and I just returned from Portugal on a trans-Atlantic repositioning cruise. 13 days sailing from Lisbon to Tampa! Whew! But before that crossing we spent ten days with two of this group's members: Hans Duinhoven in the Netherlands and Rui Gigante in Portugal. > I have known both Hans and Rui for over two decades, Hans via this group and Rui via another group, if now he's also here. Rui I met face-to-face in Italy in about 1999, and I met Hans and his wife Tineke face-to-face just a few weeks ago. All are such lovely people. Thank you. > I have been absent from this group for ages it seems, although I still read all posts. So here's my update. > I currently have two MGs. The '53 TD that I restored a few years back, and a '72 MGB that I'm just finishing 'restoring' to 'driver' status. > The TD needed a new brake master cylinder which I installed just before the overseas trip. It works great! So great in fact that it blew out the so-called seals on one 'new' rear slave cylinder, spilling brake fluid everywhere. I'll try to refrain from rude comments about the 'new' cylinder's country of origin but suffice to say, I'm disappointed - again. > One question for the MG brain trust: Will the gush of brake fluid within the drum have permanently damaged the new brake shoes' linings, or can the shoes be washed clean with brake cleaner? Said another way; Should I order new brake shoes when I order the new slave cylinder? > The MGB just needs one more brake system bleed since it's all new and a few air bubbles are almost certainly hiding in obscure places. That's it for mechanical tweaks. Everything left to do is cosmetic. > With that all said, et me conclude by saying it's nice to be back chatting. > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > > Mgs at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com From richardolindsay at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 12:08:04 2022 From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:08:04 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends In-Reply-To: <7AECA71D-101A-48BF-89DE-E18FCFA60839@gmail.com> References: <7AECA71D-101A-48BF-89DE-E18FCFA60839@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for the tips, Bob! Rui and Hans, like most car guys, are really nice people. R. On Sun, Nov 13, 2022, 9:09 AM Robert's New iPad wrote: > Hi Rick, > It?s good to read of your adventures, and to learn of your > connection with Hans and Rui whom I know only by this list?s correspondence. > Do you still have the original wheel cylinders for TD? Mine were > pitted; I bought new. Then I disliked the apparent cheesiness of them so I > had my originals sleeved. > Many say that you can clean the wet shoes with brake cleaner. > Probably so, though I would put one of the contaminated/cleaned shoes on > each side, so any loss of effectiveness would be shared. And, I would put > that shoe as the ?trailing? shoe on the wheels, as we don?t do much serious > braking in reverse. > Me? For the cost of a new set of shoes I would buy the set. Check > Abingdon Spares site, as not too long ago they were on sale. > Bob > > > > On Nov 13, 2022, at 7:41 AM, Richard Lindsay > wrote: > > > > Hello friends, > > Before I comment on my two MGs I'd like to write a few words about a > recent trip. Nancy and I just returned from Portugal on a trans-Atlantic > repositioning cruise. 13 days sailing from Lisbon to Tampa! Whew! But > before that crossing we spent ten days with two of this group's members: > Hans Duinhoven in the Netherlands and Rui Gigante in Portugal. > > I have known both Hans and Rui for over two decades, Hans via this > group and Rui via another group, if now he's also here. Rui I met > face-to-face in Italy in about 1999, and I met Hans and his wife Tineke > face-to-face just a few weeks ago. All are such lovely people. Thank you. > > I have been absent from this group for ages it seems, although I > still read all posts. So here's my update. > > I currently have two MGs. The '53 TD that I restored a few years > back, and a '72 MGB that I'm just finishing 'restoring' to 'driver' status. > > The TD needed a new brake master cylinder which I installed just > before the overseas trip. It works great! So great in fact that it blew out > the so-called seals on one 'new' rear slave cylinder, spilling brake fluid > everywhere. I'll try to refrain from rude comments about the 'new' > cylinder's country of origin but suffice to say, I'm disappointed - again. > > One question for the MG brain trust: Will the gush of brake fluid > within the drum have permanently damaged the new brake shoes' linings, or > can the shoes be washed clean with brake cleaner? Said another way; Should > I order new brake shoes when I order the new slave cylinder? > > The MGB just needs one more brake system bleed since it's all new and > a few air bubbles are almost certainly hiding in obscure places. That's it > for mechanical tweaks. Everything left to do is cosmetic. > > With that all said, et me conclude by saying it's nice to be back > chatting. > > > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Mgs at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > > > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive > > > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rolindsay at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 17:17:34 2022 From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 18:17:34 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends In-Reply-To: References: <35421437-0c12-4bdb-9821-5e02613454fa.ref@email.android.com> Message-ID: <35421437-0c12-4bdb-9821-5e02613454fa@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com Mon Nov 14 01:19:31 2022 From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:19:31 +0000 Subject: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3350df46-4172-05c7-2b27-5ea32968ab5f@virginmedia.com> You can probably getaway with cleaning brake fluid off with brake cleaner, less likely with axle oil.? I chose to replace mine though after seal weeps both sides, cleaned the drum, and after that they were awful - couldn't hold the car on a moderate slope. Several times I removed the drums and sanded down the high spots (funnily enough a program here last week on rebuilding a Spitfire - the Supermarine version! - had to do the same thing).? Since then and nine years later they are better but still not as good as the roadster when they were broadly comparable before.? I had previously replaced them in 1997 and don't recall any problems then. PaulH. On 13/11/2022 12:41, Richard Lindsay wrote: > ?? One question for the MG brain trust: Will the gush of brake fluid > within the drum have permanently damaged the new brake shoes' linings, > or can the shoes be washed clean with brake cleaner? Said another way; > Should I order new brake shoes when I order the new slave cylinder? > From rolindsay at yahoo.com Tue Nov 15 03:58:21 2022 From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 04:58:21 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends In-Reply-To: <35421437-0c12-4bdb-9821-5e02613454fa@email.android.com> References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richardolindsay at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 04:53:44 2022 From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 05:53:44 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns Message-ID: Hello MG friends, I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display. Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and another a worrisome trend. Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage. Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be restored? I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'? Yea right. My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes. So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'. As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now. Yes, YMMV, Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swestfisher at coastaldatasystems.com Tue Nov 15 05:36:17 2022 From: swestfisher at coastaldatasystems.com (steve@coastaldatasystems.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:36:17 -0500 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006301d8f8ee$dc3734a0$94a59de0$@coastaldatasystems.com> I recall back in the ?80s people saying exactly the same thing about the EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in new cars. They would say these cars can?t be fixed, modified, hopped up, whatever due to the complex electronics. The kids of today will find a way. It?s a different skillset to be a ?tuner?, or replace the engine management system on a modern engine with something aftermarket, but folks are still doing it. And they will find a way in the future. Steve West-Fisher N4IK From: Mgs On Behalf Of Richard Lindsay Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM To: MGs Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns Hello MG friends, I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display. Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and another a worrisome trend. Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage. Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be restored? I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'? Yea right. My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes. So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'. As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now. Yes, YMMV, Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richardolindsay at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 05:53:42 2022 From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 06:53:42 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: <006301d8f8ee$dc3734a0$94a59de0$@coastaldatasystems.com> References: <006301d8f8ee$dc3734a0$94a59de0$@coastaldatasystems.com> Message-ID: I hope you're right Steve, but I might add that 'finding a way' and 'modifying' isn't really 'restoring'. Also, at least here in Texas, touching anything on a car that might affect emissions is illegal. Taken to the extreme, just changing an air filter might be considered 'illegal'. And all cars younger than 25 years have to pass inspection. That means the OBDII has to verify that the car is still clean and safe. One can't register a car in Texas with a failed inspection. I'm sorry to sound negative and defeatist. I have just had a couple of bad experiences. One from the inability to source a NLA mass air sensor for a Mondial T, and the other, the CAN buss in the XK8. Both of these issues were solvable but at terrible expense and arguably difficult in the home garage. I should add that I do have more modern cars that I maintain at home (illegally?): an '84 BMW 633CSi and a '91 M-B 300SL. Both with manual gearboxes. Parts for these cars are readily available since they are shared with other models in their makers' lines. Rick WD4KIB On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 6:36 AM steve at coastaldatasystems.com < swestfisher at coastaldatasystems.com> wrote: > I recall back in the ?80s people saying exactly the same thing about the > EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in new cars. They would say > these cars can?t be fixed, modified, hopped up, whatever due to the complex > electronics. > > The kids of today will find a way. It?s a different skillset to be a > ?tuner?, or replace the engine management system on a modern engine with > something aftermarket, but folks are still doing it. And they will find a > way in the future. > > > > > > Steve West-Fisher > > N4IK > > > > *From:* Mgs *On Behalf Of *Richard Lindsay > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM > *To:* MGs > *Subject:* [Mgs] Diminishing returns > > > > Hello MG friends, > > I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called > 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging > from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the > collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so > cars in total were on display. > > Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and > another a worrisome trend. > > Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old > men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that > our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine > because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where > are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away? > And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars > left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage. > > Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are > being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so > many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be > restored? > > I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN > buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of > the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold > prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial > computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial > computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights > where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if > one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the > whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position > computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the > 'burned out bulb'? Yea right. > > My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that > modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really > restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential > enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the > extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt > electric car? Yikes. > > So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the > old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says > that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we > should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. > Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure > help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling > spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a > kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'. > > As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a > Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but > 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now. > > > > Yes, YMMV, > > > > Rick > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan.dibiase at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 05:58:47 2022 From: dan.dibiase at gmail.com (Dan DiBiase) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:58:47 -0500 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Rick. Regarding your first point, I have 2 comments - people tend to be interested in the cars of their youth, so for many of a slightly older generation than us (I am 64) that would mean cars from the '40's and '50's. I've been to hot rod shows locally where many of the owners are in their late 60's and '70's. I guess many of us around my age saw these little British cars putting around in the '60's when we were kids and that kindled our interest (I had a friend growing up whose Dad had an MGB-GT). I have a nephew who is big into cars and he and his friends are into '80's cars like BMW's and MR2's (he and his dad, my cousin, actually own several '80's BW's and a first-gen MR2). So, while I wouldn't say the current generation isn't into cars, it's just not the cars we like. And of course, current mod trends include things like air bagging cars so they can be lowered to within an inch of the pavement, negative camber wheels, loud farty exhausts, crazy lights, etc. It;'s not what we like, but that's probably part of the point... Dan D '76 MGB Central NJ USA On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 7:01 AM Richard Lindsay wrote: > Hello MG friends, > I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called > 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging > from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the > collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so > cars in total were on display. > Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and > another a worrisome trend. > Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old > men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that > our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine > because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where > are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away? > And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars > left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage. > Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are > being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so > many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be > restored? > I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN > buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of > the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold > prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial > computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial > computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights > where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if > one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the > whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position > computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the > 'burned out bulb'? Yea right. > My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that > modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really > restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential > enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the > extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt > electric car? Yikes. > So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the > old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says > that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we > should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. > Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure > help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling > spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a > kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'. > As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a > Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but > 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now. > > Yes, YMMV, > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > > Mgs at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rolindsay at yahoo.com Tue Nov 15 06:01:11 2022 From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:01:11 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: <006301d8f8ee$dc3734a0$94a59de0$@coastaldatasystems.com> References: <3b5864c0-4959-4c6f-b9e4-ab3a6789e7c8.ref@email.android.com> Message-ID: <3b5864c0-4959-4c6f-b9e4-ab3a6789e7c8@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richardolindsay at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 06:03:33 2022 From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:03:33 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I'm just a few weeks away from 72. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com Tue Nov 15 06:18:24 2022 From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 13:18:24 +0000 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d396804-7060-e678-272e-d400dd89cc17@virginmedia.com> Not that bad from what I see over here at club runs round the country, many younger than my wife and I, some a lot younger - MGB owners at any rate.? We have a TV series here 'Bangers and Cash' about an auction house in Yorkshire and in the current series it's been mentioned a couple of times that the market for pre-war cars is not what it was as far as achieved prices go, and the sellers of those ARE more likely to be 'grey-haired old men' - or sadly their widows. On 15/11/2022 11:53, Richard Lindsay wrote: > ?? Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired > old men. > From dan.dibiase at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 06:18:39 2022 From: dan.dibiase at gmail.com (Dan DiBiase) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:18:39 -0500 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: LOL, nothing personal Rick! Dan On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:03 AM Richard Lindsay wrote: > All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I'm just a few weeks away from 72. > > R. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richardolindsay at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 06:27:22 2022 From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:27:22 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course not Dan (and Steve). I just like seeing MG notes arrive in my inbox once again! R On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 7:19 AM Dan DiBiase wrote: > LOL, nothing personal Rick! > > Dan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palte at gmx.net Tue Nov 15 07:15:25 2022 From: palte at gmx.net (Bert Palte) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:15:25 +0100 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not too knowledgeable but my guess is - can't OBD be emulated?? Think Arduino? Op 15-11-2022 om 12:53 schreef Richard Lindsay: > Hello MG friends, > ? ?I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood > called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with > MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all > dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I > estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display. > ? ?Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, > and another a worrisome trend. > ? ?Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired > old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is > obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. > That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue > the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be > replacements for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? > I already see too many cars left?languishing or worse, decaying in > garages and storage. > ? ?Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars > are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular > but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer > cars can be restored? > ? ?I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN > buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. > Most of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at > better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, > and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, > a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old > strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go > out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission > reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down. > Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you > think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'? > Yea right. > ? ?My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point > that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just > aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation > of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear > so. And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to > restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes. > ? ?So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all > the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My > wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I > also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger > people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that. > Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but > also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box > controller just can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in > 'busted knuckles'. > ? ?As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can > handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the > cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now. > > Yes, YMMV, > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > > Mgs at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/palte at gmx.net From david_breneman at yahoo.com Tue Nov 15 09:10:35 2022 From: david_breneman at yahoo.com (David Breneman) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:10:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <898249947.511261.1668528635819@mail.yahoo.com> I have a 2011 Ford Fiesta that I bought as a commuter car (I'd driventhem as rentals a couple times in Europe, and when "European-similar"models [unlike the crummy hard plastic US-spec Focuses] came on themarket I got one).? It has been relatively trouble free until last spring,when the transmission control module went out.? $2800.? Two successiveafter-market modules lasted less than a week each.? Now the car is sitting, since JUNE, waiting for a real Ford-built module.? ApparentlyFord is flashing the chips by hand since they are no longer available fromthe original source due to Covid supply chain issues.? I just can'tbelieve that any car made in this century, except really high-end carswhich have a lot of low-volume parts in them anyway, will be able tobe maintained in drivable condition when they are 50 years old. David Breneman david_breneman at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swestfisher at coastaldatasystems.com Tue Nov 15 09:36:41 2022 From: swestfisher at coastaldatasystems.com (steve@coastaldatasystems.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 11:36:41 -0500 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004101d8f910$72787700$57696500$@coastaldatasystems.com> Jaguar does some pretty interesting things - not a classic but my wife has an S-Type that she loves. Tracking down some of the electrical issues has been interesting to say the least. Steve West-Fisher N4IK -----Original Message----- From: Mgs On Behalf Of Bert Palte Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 9:15 AM To: Richard Lindsay ; mgs at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns I'm not too knowledgeable but my guess is - can't OBD be emulated? Think Arduino? Op 15-11-2022 om 12:53 schreef Richard Lindsay: > Hello MG friends, > I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood > called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with > MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all > dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I > estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display. > Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, > and another a worrisome trend. > Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired > old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is > obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. > That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue > the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be > replacements for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? > I already see too many cars left languishing or worse, decaying in > garages and storage. > Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars > are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular > but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer > cars can be restored? > I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN > buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. > Most of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at > better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, > and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, > a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old > strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go > out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission > reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down. > Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you > think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'? > Yea right. > My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point > that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just > aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation > of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear > so. And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to > restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes. > So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all > the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My > wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I > also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger > people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that. > Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but > also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box > controller just can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in > 'busted knuckles'. > As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can > handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the > cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now. > > Yes, YMMV, > > Rick > > _______________________________________________ > > Mgs at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/palte at gmx.net _______________________________________________ Mgs at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/steve at coastaldatasystems.com From eyera3000 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 09:41:04 2022 From: eyera3000 at gmail.com (i erbs) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:41:04 -0800 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am a retired IT computer teacher at career and technical ed high schools and community college.. the kids are learning how to fix modern cars with modern tools. They also build hot rods and restore old cars. We are losing the crafts people who can work on ols stuff,but new cars are being restored. On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 4:03 AM Richard Lindsay wrote: > Hello MG friends, > I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called > 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging > from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the > collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so > cars in total were on display. > Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and > another a worrisome trend. > Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old > men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that > our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine > because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where > are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away? > And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars > left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage. > Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are > being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so > many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be > restored? > I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN > buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of > the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold > prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial > computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial > computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights > where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if > one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the > whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position > computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the > 'burned out bulb'? Yea right. > My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that > modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really > restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential > enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the > extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt > electric car? Yikes. > So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the > old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says > that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we > should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. > Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure > help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling > spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a > kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'. > As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a > Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but > 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now. > > Yes, YMMV, > > Rick > _______________________________________________ > > Mgs at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/eyera3000 at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richardolindsay at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:14:33 2022 From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:14:33 -0600 Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns In-Reply-To: <9d396804-7060-e678-272e-d400dd89cc17@virginmedia.com> References: <9d396804-7060-e678-272e-d400dd89cc17@virginmedia.com> Message-ID: My observation is quite limited and therefore, biased. I certainly hope I'm wrong. On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:15 AM PaulHunt73 wrote: > Not that bad from what I see over here at club runs round the country, > many younger than my wife and I, some a lot younger - MGB owners at any > rate. We have a TV series here 'Bangers and Cash' about an auction > house in Yorkshire and in the current series it's been mentioned a > couple of times that the market for pre-war cars is not what it was as > far as achieved prices go, and the sellers of those ARE more likely to > be 'grey-haired old men' - or sadly their widows. > > On 15/11/2022 11:53, Richard Lindsay wrote: > > Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired > > old men. > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mgs at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.75 > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: