From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Tue Mar  3 14:49:03 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 21:49:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Seat Fittings.
References: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>

I am finally addressing the driver's seat in my "new to me" MGB GT.? When I sit in the driver's seat the cushion bottoms out so that I am being jabbed on both sides by the tubular frame.? Not conducive to long distance driving.? The foam in the seat must be original as it has turned brown in exposed areas and is way too soft.? Where I am confused is the seats have cross webbing to support the foam cushion.? According to the catalogs, webbing started in use in 1970 on.? My GT is a 1969 model which should be a rubber diaphragm instead of webbing.? Knowing what I know about the assembly line for MGs and other Brit cars, it is totally possible some 69s got out with the newer seats.? More likely the seats were swapped sometime during the 51 years since it came off the assembly line.? The webbing is installed with aluminum flat bars screwed to the tubular frame.? The webbing is sewn around the aluminum bars.? I don't know if this is a retrofit or original.? I already ordered another foam cushion to replace this old one.? Just wondering if the new foam will be enough to solve the bottoming out problem, or should I have replaced the webbing or even gone back to a rubber diaphragm?? Like to hear from you guys that rebuilt your seats on your own.Mike MacLean69 MGB GT56 Austin Healey BN260 Bugeye

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200303/0b397ed9/attachment.htm>

From mvheim at sonic.net  Tue Mar  3 15:01:25 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 14:01:25 -0800
Subject: [Mgs] Seat Fittings.
In-Reply-To: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07221AF5-4EF1-48A0-A7E2-0F58408D7D2C@sonic.net>

In my case, a new rubber diaphragm with the old seat foam worked OK. Then new seat foam made it more supportive. I think you will want both.

--
Max Heim
'66 MGB

> On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> I am finally addressing the driver's seat in my "new to me" MGB GT.  When I sit in the driver's seat the cushion bottoms out so that I am being jabbed on both sides by the tubular frame.  Not conducive to long distance driving.  The foam in the seat must be original as it has turned brown in exposed areas and is way too soft.  Where I am confused is the seats have cross webbing to support the foam cushion.  According to the catalogs, webbing started in use in 1970 on.  My GT is a 1969 model which should be a rubber diaphragm instead of webbing.  Knowing what I know about the assembly line for MGs and other Brit cars, it is totally possible some 69s got out with the newer seats.  More likely the seats were swapped sometime during the 51 years since it came off the assembly line.  The webbing is installed with aluminum flat bars screwed to the tubular frame.  The webbing is sewn around the aluminum bars.  I don't know if this is a retrofit or original.  I already ordered another foam cushion to replace this old one.  Just wondering if the new foam will be enough to solve the bottoming out problem, or should I have replaced the webbing or even gone back to a rubber diaphragm?  Like to hear from you guys that rebuilt your seats on your own.
> Mike MacLean
> 69 MGB GT
> 56 Austin Healey BN2
> 60 Bugeye
> 
> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>_______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200303/fb5fe56b/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Tue Mar  3 15:12:29 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 22:12:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Seat Fittings.
In-Reply-To: <07221AF5-4EF1-48A0-A7E2-0F58408D7D2C@sonic.net>
References: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>
 <07221AF5-4EF1-48A0-A7E2-0F58408D7D2C@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <2120690980.3886284.1583273549992@mail.yahoo.com>

I just ordered both.Mike M

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 2:01 PM, Max Heim<mvheim at sonic.net> wrote:   In my case, a new rubber diaphragm with the old seat foam worked OK. Then new seat foam made it more supportive. I think you will want both.
--Max Heim'66 MGB

On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
I am finally addressing the driver's seat in my "new to me" MGB GT.? When I sit in the driver's seat the cushion bottoms out so that I am being jabbed on both sides by the tubular frame.? Not conducive to long distance driving.? The foam in the seat must be original as it has turned brown in exposed areas and is way too soft.? Where I am confused is the seats have cross webbing to support the foam cushion.? According to the catalogs, webbing started in use in 1970 on.? My GT is a 1969 model which should be a rubber diaphragm instead of webbing.? Knowing what I know about the assembly line for MGs and other Brit cars, it is totally possible some 69s got out with the newer seats.? More likely the seats were swapped sometime during the 51 years since it came off the assembly line.? The webbing is installed with aluminum flat bars screwed to the tubular frame.? The webbing is sewn around the aluminum bars.? I don't know if this is a retrofit or original.? I already ordered another foam cushion to replace this old one.? Just wondering if the new foam will be enough to solve the bottoming out problem, or should I have replaced the webbing or even gone back to a rubber diaphragm?? Like to hear from you guys that rebuilt your seats on your own.Mike MacLean69 MGB GT56 Austin Healey BN260 Bugeye

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation ?$12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net


  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200303/a0d0e5ad/attachment.htm>

From paul at ece.rochester.edu  Tue Mar  3 17:45:56 2020
From: paul at ece.rochester.edu (Osborne, Paul)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 00:45:56 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] Seat Fittings.
In-Reply-To: <2120690980.3886284.1583273549992@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>
 <07221AF5-4EF1-48A0-A7E2-0F58408D7D2C@sonic.net>
 <2120690980.3886284.1583273549992@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9C840994-CF4D-4B86-94BB-0FBBDB7BE8DD@ur.rochester.edu>

As an upholster,  I find the foam to be great but the new diaphragm not to be of good quality. They dry out and crack rather quickly, and your right back to sitting on the floor. I place a piece 1/8 ? luan plywood the size of the rubber  diaphragm between it and the foam. gives great support and lasts. Have had mine in my GT for 7 yrs.

paul
On Mar 3, 2020, at 5:12 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net<mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:

I just ordered both.
Mike M

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=exjFVZj4k4CApUEU9aTO_ssqiHgIBAZqkvVVWrvDEOY&s=y5B3SlxIoB1DIV-wcmAkPb1WGbntz1pJeGmouAgakcc&e=>

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 2:01 PM, Max Heim
<mvheim at sonic.net<mailto:mvheim at sonic.net>> wrote:
In my case, a new rubber diaphragm with the old seat foam worked OK. Then new seat foam made it more supportive. I think you will want both.


Paul Osborne
Paul's Canvas
7379 E Main St
Lima NY 14485
585-255-0531



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200304/1cb0850e/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Tue Mar  3 20:04:18 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 03:04:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Seat Fittings.
In-Reply-To: <9C840994-CF4D-4B86-94BB-0FBBDB7BE8DD@ur.rochester.edu>
References: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>
 <07221AF5-4EF1-48A0-A7E2-0F58408D7D2C@sonic.net>
 <2120690980.3886284.1583273549992@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9C840994-CF4D-4B86-94BB-0FBBDB7BE8DD@ur.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <19594275.4044314.1583291058639@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks Paul.? Now to find luan plywood.Mike

    On Tuesday, March 3, 2020, 4:46:00 PM PST, Osborne, Paul <paul at ece.rochester.edu> wrote:  
 
 As an upholster, ?I find the foam to be great but the new diaphragm not to be of good quality. They dry out and crack rather quickly, and your right back to sitting on the floor. I place a piece 1/8 ? luan plywood the size of the rubber ?diaphragm between it and the foam. gives great support and lasts. Have had mine in my GT for 7 yrs. ?
paul

On Mar 3, 2020, at 5:12 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
I just ordered both.Mike M

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 2:01 PM, Max Heim<mvheim at sonic.net> wrote:In my case, a new rubber diaphragm with the old seat foam worked OK. Then new seat foam made it more supportive. I think you will want both.



Paul OsbornePaul's Canvas7379 E Main St?Lima NY 14485585-255-0531


  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200304/955c4e3e/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar  4 01:22:08 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:22:08 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Seat Fittings.
References: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <36490BEE3589439FA0DA6B6A9D030C16@paul>

After all this time the webbing is unlikely to be original, even though you might be sitting on the floor.  I've replaced that in my 73 roadster twice in 30 years, and the 75 V8 once in 25, even though I've done more miles in the V8.  Avoid the diaphragms, the embedded wires that hook to the frame pull out all to easily according to several accounts.

I've recovered the roadster seats twice (the first seat were poor quality) and the V8 once, and kept the foams which are original to the cars, and have all been in good nick.  Replacement foams are far too dense - tops of thighs pressed up against the steering wheel and head tilted to one side in a GT.  A number of people say they've had to cut a slice off the bottom, or drill a series of holes through.

Of course, how much 'sag' you get depends on how much you weigh.  The factory only allowed for 150lb per person ...

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  I am finally addressing the driver's seat in my "new to me" MGB GT.  When I sit in the driver's seat the cushion bottoms out so that I am being jabbed on both sides by the tubular frame.  Not conducive to long distance driving.  The foam in the seat must be original as it has turned brown in exposed areas and is way too soft.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200304/51d6d9ac/attachment.htm>

From mgbobh at gmail.com  Wed Mar  4 05:46:33 2020
From: mgbobh at gmail.com (Robert's New iPad)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:46:33 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Seat Fittings.
In-Reply-To: <2120690980.3886284.1583273549992@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1572084767.3891683.1583272143911@mail.yahoo.com>
 <07221AF5-4EF1-48A0-A7E2-0F58408D7D2C@sonic.net>
 <2120690980.3886284.1583273549992@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C606FBA7-C904-4AD4-B2E1-E3AA3C972864@gmail.com>

    New foams can make a difference far greater than anticipated, not just in comfort but that the seat is not squirming around underneath you. 
    Another approach to replacing webbing or diaphragm is to have a tent/canvas/sailmaker sew a director?s chair sort of canvas across the frame. 
    If new foams lift so hight that your head bumps the top, trimming the foam will help a bit.  If new height puts you above the aiming of the mirror, try a mirror & its stem from an MGB open car. You can gain a bit of improvement to the angle of rear vision.
Bob


> On Mar 3, 2020, at 5:12 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> I just ordered both.
> Mike M
> 
> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 2:01 PM, Max Heim
> <mvheim at sonic.net> wrote:
> In my case, a new rubber diaphragm with the old seat foam worked OK. Then new seat foam made it more supportive. I think you will want both.
> 
> --
> Max Heim
> '66 MGB
> 
>> On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I am finally addressing the driver's seat in my "new to me" MGB GT.  When I sit in the driver's seat the cushion bottoms out so that I am being jabbed on both sides by the tubular frame.  Not conducive to long distance driving.  The foam in the seat must be original as it has turned brown in exposed areas and is way too soft.  Where I am confused is the seats have cross webbing to support the foam cushion.  According to the catalogs, webbing started in use in 1970 on.  My GT is a 1969 model which should be a rubber diaphragm instead of webbing.  Knowing what I know about the assembly line for MGs and other Brit cars, it is totally possible some 69s got out with the newer seats.  More likely the seats were swapped sometime during the 51 years since it came off the assembly line.  The webbing is installed with aluminum flat bars screwed to the tubular frame.  The webbing is sewn around the aluminum bars.  I don't know if this is a retrofit or original.  I already ordered another foam cushion to replace this old one.  Just wondering if the new foam will be enough to solve the bottoming out problem, or should I have replaced the webbing or even gone back to a rubber diaphragm?  Like to hear from you guys that rebuilt your seats on your own.
>> Mike MacLean
>> 69 MGB GT
>> 56 Austin Healey BN2
>> 60 Bugeye
>> 
>> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>> 
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200304/23c3d8a6/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Wed Mar  4 20:55:03 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 03:55:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit
References: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198@mail.yahoo.com>

Take a look at the picture.? What am I missing here?? Do I have the wrong seat frame or the wrong rubber diaphragm?Mike MacLean69 MGB GT56 Austin Healey BN260 Bugeye



Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200305/c78a9548/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 20200304_195208.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 3448759 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200305/c78a9548/attachment-0001.jpg>

From dcouncill at karamursel.org  Wed Mar  4 21:24:38 2020
From: dcouncill at karamursel.org (dcouncill)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 20:24:38 -0800
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit
In-Reply-To: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.34.1583382282.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

Heat. Then it will stretch easier.David Councill64 B, 72 B, 67 BGT
-------- Original message --------From: Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> Date: 3/4/20  8:07 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: MGs <mgs at autox.team.net> Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit Take a look at the picture.? What am I missing here?? Do I have the wrong seat frame or the wrong rubber diaphragm?Mike MacLean69 MGB GT56 Austin Healey BN260 BugeyeSent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200304/e4410e6c/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Thu Mar  5 02:49:17 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:49:17 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit
References: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BC411CEDEB4B4D8EB049F0EC3585FA34@paul>

It has to be under significant tension or it's not going to support your weight.  You will have to use something to pull on the hooks and stretch the diaphragm enough to reach the holes in the frame, and that is when the bars pull out of the rubber!  The webbing is much easier to fit, with channel lock pliers stretching each strap in turn.

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  Take a look at the picture.  What am I missing here?  Do I have the wrong seat frame or the wrong rubber diaphragm?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200305/199f9437/attachment.htm>

From paul at ece.rochester.edu  Thu Mar  5 05:00:16 2020
From: paul at ece.rochester.edu (Osborne, Paul)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 12:00:16 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit
In-Reply-To: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <77824AF3-F532-4113-83F5-151BBEDC589F@ur.rochester.edu>

Mike   They are tight to install. Helps if you do the front to back first. There is a wire edge in the rubber, or should be, so pulling hard should not
pull the clip out of the diaphragm.  Clip one in first and the grab the clip on the opposite side with vice grips and stretch it to insert in the frame.
They will go.
On Mar 4, 2020, at 10:55 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net<mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:

Take a look at the picture.  What am I missing here?  Do I have the wrong seat frame or the wrong rubber diaphragm?
Mike MacLean
69 MGB GT
56 Austin Healey BN2
60 Bugeye
<20200304_195208.jpg>



Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=ago9kOAFzyBq2iVP___5RgGVKI8oxwd70uBkYse6MRU&e=>
<20200304_195208.jpg>_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net<mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
Donate: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_donate.html&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=4HMur66K0HQ2bZ3qlkEOF8GaFXkRYqVc2G8_Vg8T4R8&e=
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_pipermail_mgs&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=hjf0cWRExWm6m1QRIE5C4AyRLF0ZTpUlp1-QLEXUTE4&e=  https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_archive&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=N9AILYiqPdlijOTyUkA9JU5q2Qr_nObbm4sTfGekMPo&e=

Unsubscribe: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_mailman_options_mgs_paul-40ece.rochester.edu&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=NP5EnCgvaYvbR4faMIqVh-sdDIUO74rcVZh4jTemZ6k&e=

Paul Osborne
Paul's Canvas
7379 E Main St
Lima NY 14485
585-255-0531



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200305/76b92735/attachment.htm>

From dan.dibiase at gmail.com  Thu Mar  5 05:20:25 2020
From: dan.dibiase at gmail.com (Dan DiBiase)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 07:20:25 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit
In-Reply-To: <77824AF3-F532-4113-83F5-151BBEDC589F@ur.rochester.edu>
References: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198@mail.yahoo.com>
 <77824AF3-F532-4113-83F5-151BBEDC589F@ur.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <CABxEc+=Nd9vnPb3LOHMNj_hVtTgB-aWa6L6rfpwzTW=G1NvYRw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I found it to be a 2-person job, one to hold a hair dryer on the
section you're trying to stretch while holding down one end, and the other
to work the vice-grips and pull the clip into the hole......
Someone mentioned doing front and back first as well. I don't recall, but
the diaphragms may be 'handed' as well, like the seats...

Dan D
'76B, '65B
Central NJ USA
http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/


On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 7:00 AM Osborne, Paul via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Mike   They are tight to install. Helps if you do the front to back first.
> There is a wire edge in the rubber, or should be, so pulling hard should
> not
> pull the clip out of the diaphragm.  Clip one in first and the grab the
> clip on the opposite side with vice grips and stretch it to insert in the
> frame.
> They will go.
>
> On Mar 4, 2020, at 10:55 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
> Take a look at the picture.  What am I missing here?  Do I have the wrong
> seat frame or the wrong rubber diaphragm?
> Mike MacLean
> 69 MGB GT
> 56 Austin Healey BN2
> 60 Bugeye
> <20200304_195208.jpg>
>
>
>
> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=ago9kOAFzyBq2iVP___5RgGVKI8oxwd70uBkYse6MRU&e=>
> <20200304_195208.jpg>_______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_donate.html&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=4HMur66K0HQ2bZ3qlkEOF8GaFXkRYqVc2G8_Vg8T4R8&e=
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_pipermail_mgs&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=hjf0cWRExWm6m1QRIE5C4AyRLF0ZTpUlp1-QLEXUTE4&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_archive&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=N9AILYiqPdlijOTyUkA9JU5q2Qr_nObbm4sTfGekMPo&e=
>
> Unsubscribe:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_mailman_options_mgs_paul-40ece.rochester.edu&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=g3PvqKT4OTCD_iLdKezOqTcd5PsN8b90dNKg-TwuQDM&s=NP5EnCgvaYvbR4faMIqVh-sdDIUO74rcVZh4jTemZ6k&e=
>
>
> Paul Osborne
> Paul's Canvas
> 7379 E Main St
> Lima NY 14485
> 585-255-0531
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200305/d9d0e9c0/attachment.htm>

From h.duinhoven at planet.nl  Thu Mar  5 13:13:04 2020
From: h.duinhoven at planet.nl (Hans Duinhoven)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:13:04 +0100
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit
In-Reply-To: <BC411CEDEB4B4D8EB049F0EC3585FA34@paul>
References: <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1082280342.4673935.1583380503198@mail.yahoo.com>
 <BC411CEDEB4B4D8EB049F0EC3585FA34@paul>
Message-ID: <001601d5f32a$7a59f730$6f0de590$@planet.nl>

This pulling was a family effort! Our son Dave and my wife helped with fitting the webbings. 

We had fun doing that.

 

Cheers,

Hans

 

Van: Mgs [mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net] Namens PaulHunt73 via Mgs
Verzonden: donderdag 5 maart 2020 10:49
Aan: rrengineer.mike at att.net; MGs
Onderwerp: Re: [Mgs] Rubber Diaphragm Fit

 

It has to be under significant tension or it's not going to support your weight.  You will have to use something to pull on the hooks and stretch the diaphragm enough to reach the holes in the frame, and that is when the bars pull out of the rubber!  The webbing is much easier to fit, with channel lock pliers stretching each strap in turn.

 

PaulH.

----- Original Message ----- 

 

Take a look at the picture.  What am I missing here?  Do I have the wrong seat frame or the wrong rubber diaphragm?



-- 
Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen met Avast antivirussoftware.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200305/a7aba65f/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Thu Mar  5 17:34:57 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 00:34:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Seat Diaphragm
References: <827038713.5209912.1583454897241.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <827038713.5209912.1583454897241@mail.yahoo.com>

???? Here is a picture of the rubber seat diaphragm finally installed .? I called the Moss Technical line and talked to DJ Romero.? DJ told me to use vice grips grabbing the upper corner of the metal hook.? By stepping on the bottom of the frame while pulling up on the vice grips, put the hook in the hole and release the vice grips.? It worked just fine. You are supposed to hook the front to back first then the sides will be a lot easier, which was true. Thanks guys for all the responses to this dilemma.Mike MacLean69 MGB GT56 BN260 Bugeye
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200306/459a6b51/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Thumbnail-Diaphragm2.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 189181 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200306/459a6b51/attachment.jpg>

From barneymg at mgaguru.com  Thu Mar  5 17:49:24 2020
From: barneymg at mgaguru.com (Barney Gaylord)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 19:49:24 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Good Customer Service, MechSpec
Message-ID: <mailman.35.1583455776.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

A bloke in the UK just had bad news and good news.  He bought a 
rebuilt gearbox, 4-synchro with overdrive for '68 MGB.  After 
installing it in his car he discovered it would not shift into 1st or 
2nd gear, shifter would not move either way, even though Reverse and 
3rd-4th work fine.  At first the shop told him to start it up to see 
if it would somehow work loose.  Thinking that was not a good idea, 
he asked me for my thoughts.  Aside from guessing at a few things 
that might be the cause, and what may be needed to fix it, like 
probably having to take it out of the car, I told him to have another 
chat with the supplier.

Now the good news is the supplier Mech Spec MG Centre near Doncaster, 
Yorkshire, UK is going to send a mechanic to his house to help remove 
the gearbox for investigation, and will fix whatever is necessary.

Barney Gaylord
1958 MGA with an attitude
http://MGAguru.com


From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Fri Mar  6 01:24:19 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:24:19 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Good Customer Service, MechSpec
References: <20200306004943.30566A1580@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <BE4CE8BF71F64703AE7BB7F66287A37E@paul>

Pity they didn't check it went into all gears before sending it out.  I did, 
and confirmed that turning the input shaft by hand turned the output shaft 
the appropriate amount in each gear, BEFORE reinstalling my rebuilt V8 box. 
>From someone else.

PaulH.

----- Original Message ----- > Now the good news is the supplier Mech Spec 
MG Centre near Doncaster,
> Yorkshire, UK is going to send a mechanic to his house to help remove the 
> gearbox for investigation, and will fix whatever is necessary.
> 

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Fri Mar  6 01:27:31 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:27:31 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Rubber Seat Diaphragm
References: <827038713.5209912.1583454897241.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <827038713.5209912.1583454897241@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F6D51563025B487F82F435C3B2F8A73B@paul>

Parts Catalogue quotes 10 hooks per diaphragm, i.e. two more for the front corners.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


       Here is a picture of the rubber seat diaphragm finally installed .
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200306/7e6e78aa/attachment.htm>

From barneymg at mgaguru.com  Fri Mar  6 08:08:39 2020
From: barneymg at mgaguru.com (Barney Gaylord)
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 10:08:39 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Good Customer Service, MechSpec
In-Reply-To: <BE4CE8BF71F64703AE7BB7F66287A37E@paul>
References: <20200306004943.30566A1580@autox.team.net>
 <BE4CE8BF71F64703AE7BB7F66287A37E@paul>
Message-ID: <mailman.36.1583507325.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

Yeah, well, everybody makes a mistake sooner or later, and they 
should have checked it before shipping.  And I'm sure they're 
embarrased and won't let it happen again.  And the customer probably 
should have also checked it before installation, so it got past at 
least two people.  When the supplier didn't check it before shipping, 
it's hard to blame the customer for missing the same issue.  This is 
more a case of how to handle it after the fact.

Barney Gaylord
1958 MGA with an attitude
http://MGAguru.com


At 03:24 AM 3/6/2020, PaulHunt73 wrote:
>Pity they didn't check it went into all gears before sending it 
>out.  I did, and confirmed that turning the input shaft by hand 
>turned the output shaft the appropriate amount in each gear, BEFORE 
>reinstalling my rebuilt V8 box. From someone else.
>
>PaulH.


>----- Original Message -----
>>Now the good news is the supplier Mech Spec MG Centre near 
>>Doncaster, Yorkshire, UK is going to send a mechanic to his house 
>>to help remove the gearbox for investigation, and will fix whatever 
>>is necessary.
>>....


From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Fri Mar  6 08:28:14 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 15:28:14 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Good Customer Service, MechSpec
References: <20200306004943.30566A1580@autox.team.net>
 <BE4CE8BF71F64703AE7BB7F66287A37E@paul>
 <20200306150903.62654A0C34@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <64C13C0B08DF4D10A43E724659C487BE@paul>

I was born an optimist.  But after 50 years dealing with trades-people and 
suppliers I'm afraid I've become a pessimist.  Whilst the gearbox works the 
OD has a leak it didn't have before, and I've got a horrible feeling that 
after just a few dozen miles the OD has started engaging with a bang unless 
I feather the throttle, again which it didn't before.  Weather not conducive 
to more testing at the moment.  Roadster does neither, but then no one has 
fiddled with them in 30 years, and quite possibly not since manufacture.

Getting the V8 gearbox out at home is a much bigger job than with the 
4-cylinder.

----- Original Message ----- 
> ...  When the supplier didn't check it before shipping, it's hard to blame 
> the customer for missing the same issue. 


From barrob at bell.net  Tue Mar 10 07:56:19 2020
From: barrob at bell.net (Barrie Robinson)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:56:19 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
Message-ID: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>


-- Hello folks,

I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I 
have on which to sound off.?? I do have my own Aston Martin Feltham Club 
but that is only 150 members.? I am getting exremely puzzled as my 2003 
Golf is getting a bit sad although it still goes like a rocket.?? There 
is a little rust and one of the courtesy lights does not work.?? 
However, whenever I have a look at new ones they are gadget rich and the 
dash is becoming like one from a 737.?? Why on earth does there have to 
be a rear end crash avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as 
well as an unwanted-lane changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on 
the road) to say nothing of bluetooth (where is yellow and red?), 
Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free telephone (used to be concentration 
on the road) and the dreaded in your face screen which like today's TV 
and Internet is intent on delivring information you don't really need 
(when did you last ponder over your oil temperature?).??? So instead of 
forking out $30-40,000 I am going to have the Golf all tarted up and 
enjoy another 170k kilometers.?? The only regret will be - it does not 
have a powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could get that 
retro-fitted!?? And in this day and age electonic/electrical gadgets die 
first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.

I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car could be 
an alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy and oiled up to 
the hllt to counter winter driving conditions. Trouble is I would want 
to drop in a Rover V8 as the engine bay was made for it on later cars - 
and the broom broom is so much better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a 
little old lady with a tiny mileage.? OMG, I am a little old man (I will 
not get a sex change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!? Oh sherbert - now 
what do I do?

Barrie
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/fa286364/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Tue Mar 10 08:22:10 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:22:10 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
Message-ID: <67B87731992A4178871E2A0CC2BA5674@paul>

With you whole-heartedly.  Plus stupid front driving lights that flash on and off every time you twitch the steering wheel distracting every one else; stupid indicator talks that return to the centre when you indicate and have to be pushed the other way to cancel them ... but go to far and they start flashing the other way; ditto main/dip stalks where you don't know whether they are on or off simply by feeling the position of the stalk; stupid light clusters that are a triumph of 'styling' over function and you don't see come on unless you are looking right at them, and then only if the sun isn't at a particular angle; big-brother systems that in real-time transmit back to the manufacturer exactly where you are and what you are doing down to which door was opened when.  Let alone the removal of any and all feedback as to what is happening between the car and the road and the driving 'experience' is reduced to sitting in an armchair watching TV - which is about all the attention drivers of them pay to what it going on outside.

My MG ZS 180 is 15 years old, has only done 50k but I'm going to have to replace it soon because spares are getting harder and harder to find.  I have a B roadster and a factory V8 and use them in preference, but am not willing to 'sacrifice' them to winter salt. 

PaulH.

----- Original Message ----- 

  I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I have on which to sound off....
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/3a304be8/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 10 09:58:32 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:58:32 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/86d75c48/attachment.htm>

From david_breneman at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 10 10:12:47 2020
From: david_breneman at yahoo.com (David Breneman)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:12:47 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <83915BC1-F75A-4FB8-971C-B1FF124E7853@yahoo.com>

I don?t really care about fancy stuff inside new cars, because the driver has the option of not using them. But the thing that *really* irates me is LED tail lights. The obnoxious flicker causes them to break into a stream of strobe-like red images that fill your field of view whenever you move your eyes. I?m a libertarian at heart, but I?d gladly ban this nuisance from our nation?s roads in a heartbeat.

From steve at shoyer.com  Tue Mar 10 10:54:47 2020
From: steve at shoyer.com (Steve Shoyer)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:54:47 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>

Some of the newer safety devices are good to have.? If my son (fairly 
new driver at the time) had been driving a car with a collision 
avoidance system, he might not have totaled the car when he ran into 
someone.? The car we got as a replacement system has collision 
avoidance, and the rest of the stuff that comes along with it.

My everyday car is ready to be replaced, and I agree about all the junk 
in the new cars that's not really needed.? I hate paying for stuff I 
don't want and probably won't use, and I especially hate to pay to have 
someone fix it in a year or two when it stops working.? That being said, 
I almost took a car off my list because my cell phone doesn't fit in the 
built-in wireless charger.? First world problems, I guess.

--Steve (1980 MGB)


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From mvheim at sonic.net  Tue Mar 10 11:03:38 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:03:38 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
Message-ID: <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>

I was saying the same thing 20 years ago. Power windows! Power door locks! Power seats, for chrissake! Remote entry and alarms systems! Keyless starters! Not a one of them necessary. Each one a potential expensive repair down the road.

Our newest car is a 2001 Toyota Echo without a single one of these mod cons. 135K and hopefully will go much longer. I really do not want to be forced into a car with one of those key fob gadgets.

I do have a phone charger plugged into the cigar lighter socket in the MGB.

--
Max Heim
'66 MGB

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Some of the newer safety devices are good to have.  If my son (fairly new driver at the time) had been driving a car with a collision avoidance system, he might not have totaled the car when he ran into someone.  The car we got as a replacement system has collision avoidance, and the rest of the stuff that comes along with it.
> 
> My everyday car is ready to be replaced, and I agree about all the junk in the new cars that's not really needed.  I hate paying for stuff I don't want and probably won't use, and I especially hate to pay to have someone fix it in a year or two when it stops working.  That being said, I almost took a car off my list because my cell phone doesn't fit in the built-in wireless charger.  First world problems, I guess.
> 
> --Steve (1980 MGB)
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/43f1b04e/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Tue Mar 10 11:12:43 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:12:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
 <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>

 The one thing I have not heard from you guys yet is "And you kids get off my lawn too!"
Mike MacLean69 MGB GT60 Bugeye56 Austin Healey BN2 LeMans2012 Honda Accord LX2002 Harley Davidson Heritage Springer

    On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:03:44 AM PDT, Max Heim via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 I was saying the same thing 20 years ago. Power windows! Power door locks! Power seats, for chrissake! Remote entry and alarms systems! Keyless starters! Not a one of them necessary. Each one a potential expensive repair down the road.
Our newest car is a 2001 Toyota Echo without a single one of these mod cons. 135K and hopefully will go much longer. I really do not want to be forced into a car with one of those key fob gadgets.
I do have a phone charger plugged into the cigar lighter socket in the MGB.
--Max Heim'66 MGB

On Mar 10, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
Some of the newer safety devices are good to have.? If my son (fairly new driver at the time) had been driving a car with a collision avoidance system, he might not have totaled the car when he ran into someone.? The car we got as a replacement system has collision avoidance, and the rest of the stuff that comes along with it.

My everyday car is ready to be replaced, and I agree about all the junk in the new cars that's not really needed.? I hate paying for stuff I don't want and probably won't use, and I especially hate to pay to have someone fix it in a year or two when it stops working.? That being said, I almost took a car off my list because my cell phone doesn't fit in the built-in wireless charger.? First world problems, I guess.

--Steve (1980 MGB)



_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/6afb7dd1/attachment.htm>

From mvheim at sonic.net  Tue Mar 10 11:22:16 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:22:16 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
 <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
 <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <60E2ECB7-B247-439C-B154-1CE053938960@sonic.net>

I almost said that, but decided to avoid the clich?. And I don?t have a lawn.

--
Max Heim
'66 MGB



> On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:12 AM, Michael MacLean <rrengineer.mike at att.net> wrote:
> 
> The one thing I have not heard from you guys yet is "And you kids get off my lawn too!"
> 
> Mike MacLean
> 69 MGB GT
> 60 Bugeye
> 56 Austin Healey BN2 LeMans
> 2012 Honda Accord LX
> 2002 Harley Davidson Heritage Springer
> 
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:03:44 AM PDT, Max Heim via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> I was saying the same thing 20 years ago. Power windows! Power door locks! Power seats, for chrissake! Remote entry and alarms systems! Keyless starters! Not a one of them necessary. Each one a potential expensive repair down the road.
> 
> Our newest car is a 2001 Toyota Echo without a single one of these mod cons. 135K and hopefully will go much longer. I really do not want to be forced into a car with one of those key fob gadgets.
> 
> I do have a phone charger plugged into the cigar lighter socket in the MGB.
> 
> --
> Max Heim
> '66 MGB
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Some of the newer safety devices are good to have.  If my son (fairly new driver at the time) had been driving a car with a collision avoidance system, he might not have totaled the car when he ran into someone.  The car we got as a replacement system has collision avoidance, and the rest of the stuff that comes along with it.
>> 
>> My everyday car is ready to be replaced, and I agree about all the junk in the new cars that's not really needed.  I hate paying for stuff I don't want and probably won't use, and I especially hate to pay to have someone fix it in a year or two when it stops working.  That being said, I almost took a car off my list because my cell phone doesn't fit in the built-in wireless charger.  First world problems, I guess.
>> 
>> --Steve (1980 MGB)
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs>http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/a306ee92/attachment.htm>

From steve at shoyer.com  Tue Mar 10 11:46:18 2020
From: steve at shoyer.com (Steve Shoyer)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:46:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
Message-ID: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/82a01d54/attachment.htm>

From mgbobh at gmail.com  Tue Mar 10 11:48:57 2020
From: mgbobh at gmail.com (Robert's New iPad)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:48:57 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
 <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
 <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D086071F-44F8-4E84-8594-01FE01EF0D6F@gmail.com>

   These are the kids you want to encourage, as in a few years they can be hired to mow the lawn and to clear the driveway of snow. Meantime, they walk the dog and occasionally bring the mail to the front door. 
Bob


> On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:12 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> The one thing I have not heard from you guys yet is "And you kids get off my lawn too!"
> 
> Mike MacLean
> 69 MGB GT
> 60 Bugeye
> 56 Austin Healey BN2 LeMans
> 2012 Honda Accord LX
> 2002 Harley Davidson Heritage Springer
> 
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:03:44 AM PDT, Max Heim via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> I was saying the same thing 20 years ago. Power windows! Power door locks! Power seats, for chrissake! Remote entry and alarms systems! Keyless starters! Not a one of them necessary. Each one a potential expensive repair down the road.
> 
> Our newest car is a 2001 Toyota Echo without a single one of these mod cons. 135K and hopefully will go much longer. I really do not want to be forced into a car with one of those key fob gadgets.
> 
> I do have a phone charger plugged into the cigar lighter socket in the MGB.
> 
> --
> Max Heim
> '66 MGB
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Some of the newer safety devices are good to have.  If my son (fairly new driver at the time) had been driving a car with a collision avoidance system, he might not have totaled the car when he ran into someone.  The car we got as a replacement system has collision avoidance, and the rest of the stuff that comes along with it.
>> 
>> My everyday car is ready to be replaced, and I agree about all the junk in the new cars that's not really needed.  I hate paying for stuff I don't want and probably won't use, and I especially hate to pay to have someone fix it in a year or two when it stops working.  That being said, I almost took a car off my list because my cell phone doesn't fit in the built-in wireless charger.  First world problems, I guess.
>> 
>> --Steve (1980 MGB)
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/534f2249/attachment.htm>

From mvheim at sonic.net  Tue Mar 10 11:59:07 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:59:07 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
Message-ID: <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>

What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. It being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.

--
Max Heim
'66 MGB


> On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a ride.  My current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I replaced the cam two years ago.  I drove around last year and it was running well, until one day when I stopped at a store for a few minutes and then couldn't get the car restarted.  After trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for help and we got it push-started.  Yesterday the same thing happened.  After the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than risk another problem.  I was trying some starter fluid to get it going yesterday, but that didn't work.  I thought that maybe the gas in the tank is old, but the car started up after a little cranking when I originally left the house. 
> 
> Any suggestions on where to look?  I didn't plumb the coolant line through the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in cold weather so I didn't think it would be needed.  I thought that the problem last summer could have been vapor lock, but starter fluid should have worked if that was the issue. 
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> --Steve (1980 MGB) 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/29ec9c23/attachment.htm>

From h.duinhoven at planet.nl  Tue Mar 10 12:30:16 2020
From: h.duinhoven at planet.nl (Hans Duinhoven)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:30:16 +0100
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
Message-ID: <001f01d5f709$f20ad460$d6207d20$@planet.nl>

Great story Barrie! 

 

Feel the same. All these modern gadgets make a car looking more like a toy than a vehicle.

All these electronics are prone to fail and they do.

So last weekend I went back to my favorite Puch 1973 moped. (also got two from 1970)

Fixed the shape of the aftermarket central stand and shortened the exhaust manifold for a better fit the exhaust.

Result was great ? more power and torque.

This vehicle is so basic, it has no electric starter, no indicators (my arms are good indicators), only two gears for going simple and still mechanical ignition with fixed timing. The carb is very simple and the moped is chain driven.

All jobs can be done with very simple tools and it is a joy to ride!

 

The GT still is in the garage and will be on the road soon ? spring weather is coming!

 

Cheers,

Hans

71 BGT W/W no OD NRG

 

Van: Mgs [mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net] Namens Barrie Robinson via Mgs
Verzonden: dinsdag 10 maart 2020 14:56
Aan: MGB List
Onderwerp: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars

 

 

-- Hello folks,

I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I have on which to sound off.   I do have my own Aston Martin Feltham Club but that is only 150 members.  I am getting exremely puzzled as my 2003 Golf is getting a bit sad although it still goes like a rocket.   There is a little rust and one of the courtesy lights does not work.   However, whenever I have a look at new ones they are gadget rich and the dash is becoming like one from a 737.   Why on earth does there have to be a rear end crash avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as well as an unwanted-lane changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on the road) to say nothing of bluetooth (where is yellow and red?), Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free telephone (used to be concentration on the road) and the dreaded in your face screen which like today's TV and Internet is intent on delivring information you don't really need (when did you last ponder over your oil temperature?).    So instead of forking out $30-40,000 I am going to have the Golf all tarted up and enjoy another 170k kilometers.   The only regret will be - it does not have a powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could get that retro-fitted!   And in this day and age electonic/electrical gadgets die first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.

I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car could be an alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy and oiled up to the hllt to counter winter driving conditions.  Trouble is I would want to drop in a Rover V8 as the engine bay was made for it on later cars - and the broom broom is so much better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a little old lady with a tiny mileage.  OMG, I am a little old man (I will not get a sex change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!  Oh sherbert - now what do I do?   

Barrie
  <data:image/jpeg;filename=Barrie> 



-- 
Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen met Avast antivirussoftware.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/91d4677c/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: _45C9681.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 5378159 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/91d4677c/attachment-0001.jpe>

From dave at ranteer.com  Tue Mar 10 12:33:00 2020
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:33:00 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>

What is the voltage on the battery?  See:

 

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-volta
ge-range

 

 

From: Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Max Heim via Mgs
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
To: MGs <mgs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting

 

What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push start
it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. It being
the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.

 

--

Max Heim

'66 MGB

 

 

On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net
<mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> > wrote:

 

It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a ride.  My
current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I replaced the cam two
years ago.  I drove around last year and it was running well, until one day
when I stopped at a store for a few minutes and then couldn't get the car
restarted.  After trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for
help and we got it push-started.  Yesterday the same thing happened.  After
the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than risk
another problem.  I was trying some starter fluid to get it going yesterday,
but that didn't work.  I thought that maybe the gas in the tank is old, but
the car started up after a little cranking when I originally left the house.


 

Any suggestions on where to look?  I didn't plumb the coolant line through
the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in cold weather so I
didn't think it would be needed.  I thought that the problem last summer
could have been vapor lock, but starter fluid should have worked if that was
the issue. 

 

Thanks. 

 

--Steve (1980 MGB) 

_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/72046cef/attachment.htm>

From dan.dibiase at gmail.com  Tue Mar 10 12:35:07 2020
From: dan.dibiase at gmail.com (Dan DiBiase)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:35:07 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
Message-ID: <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I'm going to represent the non-Luddites among us ;-) ... I love new
technology and the possibilities it brings. My daughter has the newest car
in our family, a 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 75th Anniversary Edition,
and it has every bell and whistle (and some sirens, too) available at the
time. Top of the line AWD system that is settable for various surfaces (or
auto), heated everything, cooled front seats, engine stop/start, gigantic
screen with plenty of info available, etc. The only thing I dislike
(besides the mass) is that the programmable instrument display only has a
digital speedometer (for some reason, I have a hard time holding a constant
speed with that thing).

My next car will be a Tesla, either a Model 3 or a Model Y (which I
prefer). I have a deposit on a Cybertruck (which I'll probably roll over to
the Model Y).

Dan D
'76B, '65B
Central NJ USA
http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/


On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 9:56 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

>
> -- Hello folks,
>
> I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I have
> on which to sound off.   I do have my own Aston Martin Feltham Club but
> that is only 150 members.  I am getting exremely puzzled as my 2003 Golf is
> getting a bit sad although it still goes like a rocket.   There is a little
> rust and one of the courtesy lights does not work.   However, whenever I
> have a look at new ones they are gadget rich and the dash is becoming like
> one from a 737.   Why on earth does there have to be a rear end crash
> avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as well as an unwanted-lane
> changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on the road) to say nothing of
> bluetooth (where is yellow and red?), Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free
> telephone (used to be concentration on the road) and the dreaded in your
> face screen which like today's TV and Internet is intent on delivring
> information you don't really need (when did you last ponder over your oil
> temperature?).    So instead of forking out $30-40,000 I am going to have
> the Golf all tarted up and enjoy another 170k kilometers.   The only regret
> will be - it does not have a powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could
> get that retro-fitted!   And in this day and age electonic/electrical
> gadgets die first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.
>
> I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car could be an
> alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy and oiled up to the
> hllt to counter winter driving conditions.  Trouble is I would want to drop
> in a Rover V8 as the engine bay was made for it on later cars - and the
> broom broom is so much better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a little old
> lady with a tiny mileage.  OMG, I am a little old man (I will not get a sex
> change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!  Oh sherbert - now what do I do?
>
> Barrie
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/50ddc4fb/attachment.htm>

From dave at ranteer.com  Tue Mar 10 12:36:03 2020
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:36:03 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
 <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
 <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00eb01d5f70a$c12ec8a0$438c59e0$@ranteer.com>

I would never say that!  I refuse to be a grumpy old man!!!

 

From: Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Michael MacLean via Mgs
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:13 PM
To: MGs <mgs at autox.team.net>; Max Heim <mvheim at sonic.net>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars

 

The one thing I have not heard from you guys yet is "And you kids get off my lawn too!"

 

Mike MacLean

69 MGB GT

60 Bugeye

56 Austin Healey BN2 LeMans

2012 Honda Accord LX

2002 Harley Davidson Heritage Springer

 

On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 10:03:44 AM PDT, Max Heim via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> > wrote: 

 

 

I was saying the same thing 20 years ago. Power windows! Power door locks! Power seats, for chrissake! Remote entry and alarms systems! Keyless starters! Not a one of them necessary. Each one a potential expensive repair down the road.

 

Our newest car is a 2001 Toyota Echo without a single one of these mod cons. 135K and hopefully will go much longer. I really do not want to be forced into a car with one of those key fob gadgets.

 

I do have a phone charger plugged into the cigar lighter socket in the MGB.

 

--

Max Heim

'66 MGB

 

On Mar 10, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> > wrote:

 

Some of the newer safety devices are good to have.  If my son (fairly new driver at the time) had been driving a car with a collision avoidance system, he might not have totaled the car when he ran into someone.  The car we got as a replacement system has collision avoidance, and the rest of the stuff that comes along with it.

My everyday car is ready to be replaced, and I agree about all the junk in the new cars that's not really needed.  I hate paying for stuff I don't want and probably won't use, and I especially hate to pay to have someone fix it in a year or two when it stops working.  That being said, I almost took a car off my list because my cell phone doesn't fit in the built-in wireless charger.  First world problems, I guess.

--Steve (1980 MGB)

 

_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs%20> http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/0d388f67/attachment.htm>

From dave at ranteer.com  Tue Mar 10 12:41:51 2020
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:41:51 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
Message-ID: <00f001d5f70b$90cd6b20$b2684160$@ranteer.com>

Something positive about that newfangled devices:  my sister-in-law is a TERRIBLE driver, doesn't pay attention and wanders out of her lane.  She has totaled a number of cars.  They got her a new car and its constantly harassing her, making her a much better driver

On the other hand, a friend tells me that if you try to accelerate on a 2 lane road to speed up before you pass the car's braking system works against you; you have to go into the other lane to do that.  That's not so good.

I wouldn't know - our newest car is a 2011; my daily is a 2006 honda accord.  I'm going to go waaay off topic here - in 2006 and 2007 only Honda made a 4 door accord with a V6 and a 6 speed transmission.  It?s a hoot to drive!  I bought a used one in 2008 and drove it until 3 years ago when I found another 2006 with 27,000 miles on it.  Bought it right away, sold the old one with 135k miles on it.  My net cost to replace the high mileage one with a low mileage one was about $5k.  it has 71k on it now; I expect to drive it for another decade.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Steve Shoyer via Mgs
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 11:55 AM
To: MGs <mgs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars

Some of the newer safety devices are good to have.  If my son (fairly new driver at the time) had been driving a car with a collision avoidance system, he might not have totaled the car when he ran into someone.  The car we got as a replacement system has collision avoidance, and the rest of the stuff that comes along with it.

My everyday car is ready to be replaced, and I agree about all the junk in the new cars that's not really needed.  I hate paying for stuff I don't want and probably won't use, and I especially hate to pay to have someone fix it in a year or two when it stops working.  That being said, I almost took a car off my list because my cell phone doesn't fit in the built-in wireless charger.  First world problems, I guess.

--Steve (1980 MGB)


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dave at ranteer.com


From mvheim at sonic.net  Tue Mar 10 13:02:21 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:02:21 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>

As a designer with experience in human factors design and UX design, I can state that digital numeric speedometer displays are completely inappropriate. The constant flickering of numerals (64,65,66,65) conveys zero information and distracts the eye from the road. Personally, I think they should be banned. With an analog needle (or a digital representation of an analog needle), these tiny variations in speed are unnoticeable, and one can actually check the current speed with peripheral vision detecting the rough angle of the needle, without having to consciously parse individual numerals. The old LCD displays were the worst, because all these numerals look the same at a glance: 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9. Also 1 and 7. But it doesn?t matter how they gussy up the numeral font, it?s just a bad idea.
 
The same goes for every instrument. Which display conveys more useful information with less concentration required? ?F?, or ?17.9gal remaining??

Touchscreen controls are another abomination that shouldn?t be allowed in automotive systems that are active while the vehicle is in motion. You absolutely have to take your eyes off the road to manipulate them. All active vehicle controls should feature tactile feedback, so they can be operated by touch. The classic headlight push/pull knob is a great example that has yet to be improved upon. The rotary stalk switch on more modern cars is actually a step backward, because the direction of rotation needed is not obvious.

--
Max Heim
'66 MGB



> On Mar 10, 2020, at 11:35 AM, Dan DiBiase via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Ok, I'm going to represent the non-Luddites among us ;-) ... I love new technology and the possibilities it brings. My daughter has the newest car in our family, a 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 75th Anniversary Edition, and it has every bell and whistle (and some sirens, too) available at the time. Top of the line AWD system that is settable for various surfaces (or auto), heated everything, cooled front seats, engine stop/start, gigantic screen with plenty of info available, etc. The only thing I dislike (besides the mass) is that the programmable instrument display only has a digital speedometer (for some reason, I have a hard time holding a constant speed with that thing). 
> 
> My next car will be a Tesla, either a Model 3 or a Model Y (which I prefer). I have a deposit on a Cybertruck (which I'll probably roll over to the Model Y). 
> 
> Dan D
> '76B, '65B
> Central NJ USA
> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/ <http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/>
> 
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 9:56 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
> 
> -- Hello folks,
> 
> I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I have on which to sound off.   I do have my own Aston Martin Feltham Club but that is only 150 members.  I am getting exremely puzzled as my 2003 Golf is getting a bit sad although it still goes like a rocket.   There is a little rust and one of the courtesy lights does not work.   However, whenever I have a look at new ones they are gadget rich and the dash is becoming like one from a 737.   Why on earth does there have to be a rear end crash avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as well as an unwanted-lane changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on the road) to say nothing of bluetooth (where is yellow and red?), Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free telephone (used to be concentration on the road) and the dreaded in your face screen which like today's TV and Internet is intent on delivring information you don't really need (when did you last ponder over your oil temperature?).    So instead of forking out $30-40,000 I am going to have the Golf all tarted up and enjoy another 170k kilometers.   The only regret will be - it does not have a powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could get that retro-fitted!   And in this day and age electonic/electrical gadgets die first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.
> 
> I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car could be an alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy and oiled up to the hllt to counter winter driving conditions.  Trouble is I would want to drop in a Rover V8 as the engine bay was made for it on later cars - and the broom broom is so much better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a little old lady with a tiny mileage.  OMG, I am a little old man (I will not get a sex change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!  Oh sherbert - now what do I do?   
> 
> Barrie
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs <http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com>
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/b805e4f2/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Tue Mar 10 13:17:31 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:17:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>

 Check the battery connections, clean and replace.
Mike MacLean69 MGB GT

    On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:41:43 AM PDT, dave via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 #yiv4099544913 #yiv4099544913 -- _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv4099544913 #yiv4099544913 p.yiv4099544913MsoNormal, #yiv4099544913 li.yiv4099544913MsoNormal, #yiv4099544913 div.yiv4099544913MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4099544913 a:link, #yiv4099544913 span.yiv4099544913MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4099544913 span.yiv4099544913EmailStyle19 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv4099544913 .yiv4099544913MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv4099544913 div.yiv4099544913WordSection1 {}#yiv4099544913 
What is the voltage on the battery?? See:

 ?

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range

 ?

 ?

From: Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Max Heim via Mgs
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
To: MGs <mgs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting

 ?

What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. It being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.

 ?

--

Max Heim

'66 MGB

 ?

 ?


On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:

 ?

It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a ride.? My current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I replaced the cam two years ago.? I drove around last year and it was running well, until one day when I stopped at a store for a few minutes and then couldn't get the car restarted.? After trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for help and we got it push-started.? Yesterday the same thing happened.? After the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than risk another problem.? I was trying some starter fluid to get it going yesterday, but that didn't work.? I thought that maybe the gas in the tank is old, but the car started up after a little cranking when I originally left the house. 

 ?

Any suggestions on where to look?? I didn't plumb the coolant line through the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in cold weather so I didn't think it would be needed.? I thought that the problem last summer could have been vapor lock, but starter fluid should have worked if that was the issue. 

 ?

Thanks. 

 ?

--Steve (1980 MGB) 

_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation ?$12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net


 ?
_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/a9956e6b/attachment.htm>

From steve at shoyer.com  Tue Mar 10 13:44:34 2020
From: steve at shoyer.com (Steve Shoyer)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:44:34 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>

Thanks.? I don't think it's the battery.? The battery is about two years 
old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.? I 
didn't have any trouble getting the starter to crank, and I was running 
the starter for a while without the battery appearing to run down.

I'll have to test it by starting the car cold, driving it around my 
neighborhood for a while, then parking it back in my garage and trying 
to restart it after 20-30 minutes.? If it won't start I can pull the 
plugs and take a look, and also test the battery to see if it wasn't 
holding the charge.? I can also check compression at that point - maybe 
the head gets loose when it warms up?

I also thought it might be the coil - I had read that sometimes after 
the coil gets warm it can cause intermittent problems.? If that was the 
case I'd think the car wouldn't run after being push started, but I'm 
far from an expert.? I was just guessing at the carb because I've never 
been good at tuning carbs, and it's the last thing I changed on the car.

--Steve

On 3/10/2020 3:17 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs wrote:
> Check the battery connections, clean and replace.
> Mike MacLean
> 69 MGB GT
>
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:41:43 AM PDT, dave via Mgs 
> <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>
> What is the voltage on the battery?? See:
>
> https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range
>
> *From:* Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Max Heim via Mgs
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
> *To:* MGs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
>
> What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push 
> start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. 
> It being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.
>
> --
>
> Max Heim
>
> '66 MGB
>
>     On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs
>     <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>
>     It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a
>     ride.? My current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I
>     replaced the cam two years ago.? I drove around last year and it
>     was running well, until one day when I stopped at a store for a
>     few minutes and then couldn't get the car restarted.? After trying
>     to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for help and we got
>     it push-started. Yesterday the same thing happened. After the push
>     start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than risk
>     another problem.? I was trying some starter fluid to get it going
>     yesterday, but that didn't work.? I thought that maybe the gas in
>     the tank is old, but the car started up after a little cranking
>     when I originally left the house.
>
>     Any suggestions on where to look?? I didn't plumb the coolant line
>     through the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in
>     cold weather so I didn't think it would be needed.? I thought that
>     the problem last summer could have been vapor lock, but starter
>     fluid should have worked if that was the issue.
>
>     Thanks.
>
>     --Steve (1980 MGB)
>
>


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/6f47d07e/attachment.htm>

From mvheim at sonic.net  Tue Mar 10 13:50:23 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:50:23 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
Message-ID: <EA646FED-AF4C-4058-93EE-B0E9D8D16D22@sonic.net>

Head? Coil? Now you?re grasping at straws. And carb doesn?t match the symptoms.

I think Mike was right. Clean and tighten the battery connections. They are out of sight so are frequently neglected. Have you looked at them since you installed the battery?


--
Max Heim
'66 MGB

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.  I didn't have any trouble getting the starter to crank, and I was running the starter for a while without the battery appearing to run down.
> 
> I'll have to test it by starting the car cold, driving it around my neighborhood for a while, then parking it back in my garage and trying to restart it after 20-30 minutes.  If it won't start I can pull the plugs and take a look, and also test the battery to see if it wasn't holding the charge.  I can also check compression at that point - maybe the head gets loose when it warms up?
> 
> I also thought it might be the coil - I had read that sometimes after the coil gets warm it can cause intermittent problems.  If that was the case I'd think the car wouldn't run after being push started, but I'm far from an expert.  I was just guessing at the carb because I've never been good at tuning carbs, and it's the last thing I changed on the car.
> 
> --Steve
> 
> On 3/10/2020 3:17 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs wrote:
>> Check the battery connections, clean and replace.
>> Mike MacLean
>> 69 MGB GT
>> 
>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:41:43 AM PDT, dave via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> What is the voltage on the battery?  See:
>> 
>>  
>> https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range <https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range>
>>  
>>  
>> From: Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> <mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Max Heim via Mgs
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
>> To: MGs <mgs at autox.team.net> <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
>> 
>>  
>> What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. It being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.
>> 
>>  
>> --
>> 
>> Max Heim
>> 
>> '66 MGB
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a ride.  My current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I replaced the cam two years ago.  I drove around last year and it was running well, until one day when I stopped at a store for a few minutes and then couldn't get the car restarted.  After trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for help and we got it push-started.  Yesterday the same thing happened.  After the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than risk another problem.  I was trying some starter fluid to get it going yesterday, but that didn't work.  I thought that maybe the gas in the tank is old, but the car started up after a little cranking when I originally left the house. 
>> 
>>  
>> Any suggestions on where to look?  I didn't plumb the coolant line through the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in cold weather so I didn't think it would be needed.  I thought that the problem last summer could have been vapor lock, but starter fluid should have worked if that was the issue. 
>> 
>>  
>> Thanks.
>> 
>>  
>> --Steve (1980 MGB) 
>> 
>> 
> 
>  <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>	Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> <x-msg://11/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>_______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs <http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/3effe7d9/attachment.htm>

From barrob at bell.net  Tue Mar 10 13:50:39 2020
From: barrob at bell.net (Barrie Robinson)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:50:39 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a32cb929-bba5-7826-55df-224111d3a769@bell.net>

One of my most favourite car trips was from Kuala Lumpur to Singapore in 
a TR2.?? Wind in my hair, sun beating down on me, totally devoid of 
useless information and just a simple dial for revs and speed.?? No 
flashing screens , no awkward pointing at a glass plate, no googled eye 
searches - Just joy of the engine noise and driving.?? All this while 
not worrying about the terrorists pinging at me - well.it was 1953 
during the "Emergency" (not described as war for political reasons).?? I 
do feel sorry for those having to drive in a "modern"car !!!

HOWEVER, I do have tach(one wire connection) and speedo(GPS fed) from 
SpeedHut in my MGB GT V8.

Barrie

On 3/10/2020 3:02 PM, Max Heim via Mgs wrote:
> As a designer with experience in human factors design and UX design, I 
> can state that digital numeric speedometer displays are completely 
> inappropriate. The constant flickering of numerals (64,65,66,65) 
> conveys zero information and distracts the eye from the road. 
> Personally, I think they should be banned. With an analog needle (or a 
> digital representation of an analog needle), these tiny variations in 
> speed are unnoticeable, and one can actually check the current speed 
> with peripheral vision detecting the rough angle of the needle, 
> without having to consciously parse individual numerals. The old LCD 
> displays were the worst, because all these numerals look the same at a 
> glance: 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9. Also 1 and 7. But it doesn?t matter how they 
> gussy up the numeral font, it?s just a bad idea.
> The same goes for every instrument. Which display conveys more useful 
> information with less concentration required? ?F?, or ?17.9gal remaining??
>
> Touchscreen controls are another abomination that shouldn?t be allowed 
> in automotive systems that are active while the vehicle is in motion. 
> You absolutely have to take your eyes off the road to manipulate them. 
> All active vehicle controls should feature tactile feedback, so they 
> can be operated by touch. The classic headlight push/pull knob is a 
> great example that has yet to be improved upon. The rotary stalk 
> switch on more modern cars is actually a step backward, because the 
> direction of rotation needed is not obvious.
>
> --
> Max Heim
> '66 MGB
>
>
>
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 11:35 AM, Dan DiBiase via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net 
>> <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I'm going to represent the non-Luddites among us ;-) ... I love 
>> new technology and the possibilities it brings. My daughter has the 
>> newest car in our family, a 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 75th 
>> Anniversary Edition, and it has every bell and whistle (and some 
>> sirens, too) available at the time. Top of the line AWD system that 
>> is settable for various surfaces (or auto), heated everything, cooled 
>> front seats, engine stop/start, gigantic screen with plenty of info 
>> available, etc. The only thing I dislike (besides the mass) is that 
>> the programmable instrument display only has a digital speedometer 
>> (for some reason, I have a hard time holding a constant speed with 
>> that thing).
>>
>> My next car will be a Tesla, either a Model 3 or a Model Y (which I 
>> prefer). I have a deposit on a Cybertruck (which I'll probably roll 
>> over to the Model Y).
>>
>> Dan D
>> '76B, '65B
>> Central NJ USA
>> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 9:56 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs 
>> <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>     -- Hello folks,
>>
>>     I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big
>>     platform I have on which to sound off.?? I do have my own Aston
>>     Martin Feltham Club but that is only 150 members.? I am getting
>>     exremely puzzled as my 2003 Golf is getting a bit sad although it
>>     still goes like a rocket. There is a little rust and one of the
>>     courtesy lights does not work.?? However, whenever I have a look
>>     at new ones they are gadget rich and the dash is becoming like
>>     one from a 737.?? Why on earth does there have to be a rear end
>>     crash avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as well as
>>     an unwanted-lane changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on the
>>     road) to say nothing of bluetooth (where is yellow and red?),
>>     Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free telephone (used to be
>>     concentration on the road) and the dreaded in your face screen
>>     which like today's TV and Internet is intent on delivring
>>     information you don't really need (when did you last ponder over
>>     your oil temperature?).??? So instead of forking out $30-40,000 I
>>     am going to have the Golf all tarted up and enjoy another 170k
>>     kilometers.?? The only regret will be - it does not have a
>>     powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could get that
>>     retro-fitted!?? And in this day and age electonic/electrical
>>     gadgets die first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.
>>
>>     I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car
>>     could be an alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy
>>     and oiled up to the hllt to counter winter driving conditions.
>>     Trouble is I would want to drop in a Rover V8 as the engine bay
>>     was made for it on later cars - and the broom broom is so much
>>     better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a little old lady with a
>>     tiny mileage.? OMG, I am a little old man (I will not get a sex
>>     change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!? Oh sherbert - now what do I
>>     do?
>>
>>     Barrie
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
>>     Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
>>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>     Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>>
>>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs
>>     http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>>     Unsubscribe:
>>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation ?$12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/b22e50b3/attachment.htm>

From h.duinhoven at planet.nl  Tue Mar 10 13:55:32 2020
From: h.duinhoven at planet.nl (Hans Duinhoven)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:55:32 +0100
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
Message-ID: <006c01d5f715$dbbb5980$93320c80$@planet.nl>

I also had a coil failing with a hot engine with my Puch moped!

Soon it went worse, so the coil had to be replaced.

 

Cheers,

Hans

 

Van: Mgs [mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net] Namens Steve Shoyer via Mgs
Verzonden: dinsdag 10 maart 2020 20:45
Aan: mgs at autox.team.net
Onderwerp: Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting

 

Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.  I didn't have any trouble getting the starter to crank, and I was running the starter for a while without the battery appearing to run down.

I'll have to test it by starting the car cold, driving it around my neighborhood for a while, then parking it back in my garage and trying to restart it after 20-30 minutes.  If it won't start I can pull the plugs and take a look, and also test the battery to see if it wasn't holding the charge.  I can also check compression at that point - maybe the head gets loose when it warms up?

I also thought it might be the coil - I had read that sometimes after the coil gets warm it can cause intermittent problems.  If that was the case I'd think the car wouldn't run after being push started, but I'm far from an expert.  I was just guessing at the carb because I've never been good at tuning carbs, and it's the last thing I changed on the car.

--Steve

On 3/10/2020 3:17 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs wrote:

Check the battery connections, clean and replace.

Mike MacLean

69 MGB GT

 

On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:41:43 AM PDT, dave via Mgs  <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote: 

 

 

What is the voltage on the battery?  See:

 

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range

 

 

From: Mgs  <mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Max Heim via Mgs
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
To: MGs  <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> <mgs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting

 

What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. It being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.

 

--

Max Heim

'66 MGB

 

 

On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:

 

It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a ride.  My current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I replaced the cam two years ago.  I drove around last year and it was running well, until one day when I stopped at a store for a few minutes and then couldn't get the car restarted.  After trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for help and we got it push-started.  Yesterday the same thing happened.  After the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than risk another problem.  I was trying some starter fluid to get it going yesterday, but that didn't work.  I thought that maybe the gas in the tank is old, but the car started up after a little cranking when I originally left the house. 

 

Any suggestions on where to look?  I didn't plumb the coolant line through the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in cold weather so I didn't think it would be needed.  I thought that the problem last summer could have been vapor lock, but starter fluid should have worked if that was the issue. 

 

Thanks. 

 

--Steve (1980 MGB) 

 

 


 <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> 

Virus-free.  <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avg.com 

 



-- 
Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen met Avast antivirussoftware.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/922b99ca/attachment.htm>

From david_breneman at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 10 13:57:37 2020
From: david_breneman at yahoo.com (David Breneman)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:57:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <1756669685.3468428.1583870257929@mail.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 12:02:31 PM PDT, Max Heim via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
[About digital displays]
The Air Force did a study about this decades ago, and they found thatthe best way to convey information to a pilot was with a round gauge,white on black printing, with the nominal value at the middle of theneedle's travel, preferably 12:00 or 6:00, depending on orientation.

David Breneman david_breneman at yahoo.com 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/d017695c/attachment.htm>

From steve at shoyer.com  Tue Mar 10 14:21:53 2020
From: steve at shoyer.com (Steve Shoyer)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:21:53 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <EA646FED-AF4C-4058-93EE-B0E9D8D16D22@sonic.net>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
 <EA646FED-AF4C-4058-93EE-B0E9D8D16D22@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <b0f7c719-a372-3e77-716b-fd44c5b3c6d9@shoyer.com>

I actually look at the battery connections every time I drive, when I 
disconnect and then reconnect the battery tender clamps. They seem clean 
and tight.

If the battery (or battery connection) was bad, would there still be 
enough power to start the car when it was cold, and to run the starter 
for a long time after the car was warm but wouldn't start?? I can try 
disconnecting the battery tender to see how the battery reacts to only 
charging from the alternator.

--Steve? (1980 MGB)

On 3/10/2020 3:50 PM, Max Heim via Mgs wrote:
> Head? Coil? Now you?re grasping at straws. And carb doesn?t match the 
> symptoms.
>
> I think Mike was right. Clean and tighten the battery connections. 
> They are out of sight so are frequently neglected. Have you looked at 
> them since you installed the battery?
>
>
> --
> Max Heim
> '66 MGB
>
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs 
>> <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks.? I don't think it's the battery.? The battery is about two 
>> years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the 
>> winter.? I didn't have any trouble getting the starter to crank, and 
>> I was running the starter for a while without the battery appearing 
>> to run down.
>>
>> I'll have to test it by starting the car cold, driving it around my 
>> neighborhood for a while, then parking it back in my garage and 
>> trying to restart it after 20-30 minutes.? If it won't start I can 
>> pull the plugs and take a look, and also test the battery to see if 
>> it wasn't holding the charge.? I can also check compression at that 
>> point - maybe the head gets loose when it warms up?
>>
>> I also thought it might be the coil - I had read that sometimes after 
>> the coil gets warm it can cause intermittent problems. If that was 
>> the case I'd think the car wouldn't run after being push started, but 
>> I'm far from an expert.? I was just guessing at the carb because I've 
>> never been good at tuning carbs, and it's the last thing I changed on 
>> the car.
>>
>> --Steve
>>
>> On 3/10/2020 3:17 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs wrote:
>>> Check the battery connections, clean and replace.
>>> Mike MacLean
>>> 69 MGB GT
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:41:43 AM PDT, dave via 
>>> Mgs<mgs at autox.team.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> What is the voltage on the battery?? See:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:*Mgs<mgs-bounces at autox.team.net>*On Behalf Of*Max Heim via Mgs
>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
>>> *To:*MGs<mgs at autox.team.net>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
>>>
>>>
>>> What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could 
>>> push start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter 
>>> related. It being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Max Heim
>>>
>>> '66 MGB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs
>>>     <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a
>>>     ride.? My current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when
>>>     I replaced the cam two years ago.? I drove around last year and
>>>     it was running well, until one day when I stopped at a store for
>>>     a few minutes and then couldn't get the car restarted.? After
>>>     trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for help
>>>     and we got it push-started. Yesterday the same thing happened.?
>>>     After the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home
>>>     rather than risk another problem. I was trying some starter
>>>     fluid to get it going yesterday, but that didn't work.? I
>>>     thought that maybe the gas in the tank is old, but the car
>>>     started up after a little cranking when I originally left the house.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Any suggestions on where to look?? I didn't plumb the coolant
>>>     line through the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much
>>>     in cold weather so I didn't think it would be needed.? I thought
>>>     that the problem last summer could have been vapor lock, but
>>>     starter fluid should have worked if that was the issue.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>     --Steve (1980 MGB)
>>>
>>>


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/cc492600/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Tue Mar 10 14:28:37 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:28:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <b0f7c719-a372-3e77-716b-fd44c5b3c6d9@shoyer.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
 <EA646FED-AF4C-4058-93EE-B0E9D8D16D22@sonic.net>
 <b0f7c719-a372-3e77-716b-fd44c5b3c6d9@shoyer.com>
Message-ID: <1095694204.7416235.1583872117917@mail.yahoo.com>

 Battery connections can "look" fine.? There is a corrosion that sets up with disuse and the battery tenders tend to foster this.? Just take off the battery connections and clean off the battery posts with a battery cleaning tool.? You know, the one with the stiff steel bristles you put over the post and turn back and forth.? Then do the same for the battery cable connections.? You would be surprised how many times it's the simple things like this that are the problem.Mike MacLean69 MGB GT

    On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 1:21:59 PM PDT, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
  
I actually look at the battery connections every time I drive, when I disconnect and then reconnect the battery tender clamps.? They seem clean and tight.
 
If the battery (or battery connection) was bad, would there still be enough power to start the car when it was cold, and to run the starter for a long time after the car was warm but wouldn't start?? I can try disconnecting the battery tender to see how the battery reacts to only charging from the alternator.
 
--Steve? (1980 MGB)
 
 On 3/10/2020 3:50 PM, Max Heim via Mgs wrote:
  
 
 Head? Coil? Now you?re grasping at straws. And carb doesn?t match the symptoms. 
  I think Mike was right. Clean and tighten the battery connections. They are out of sight so are frequently neglected. Have you looked at them since you installed the battery? 
  
    -- Max Heim '66 MGB    
  
 On Mar 10, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote: 
  
Thanks.? I don't think it's the battery.? The battery is about two years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.? I didn't have any trouble getting the starter to crank, and I was running the starter for a while without the battery appearing to run down.
 
I'll have to test it by starting the car cold, driving it around my neighborhood for a while, then parking it back in my garage and trying to restart it after 20-30 minutes.? If it won't start I can pull the plugs and take a look, and also test the battery to see if it wasn't holding the charge.? I can also check compression at that point - maybe the head gets loose when it warms up?
 
 
I also thought it might be the coil - I had read that sometimes after the coil gets warm it can cause intermittent problems.? If that was the case I'd think the car wouldn't run after being push started, but I'm far from an expert.? I was just guessing at the carb because I've never been good at tuning carbs, and it's the last thing I changed on the car.
 
--Steve
 
 On 3/10/2020 3:17 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs wrote:
  
  Check the battery connections, clean and replace.
  Mike MacLean 69 MGB GT
  
     On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:41:43 AM PDT, dave via Mgs?<mgs at autox.team.net>?wrote:? 
  
      
What is the voltage on the battery?? See:
 ?
  
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range
 ?
  ?
     
From:?Mgs?<mgs-bounces at autox.team.net>?On Behalf Of?Max Heim via Mgs
 Sent:?Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
 To:?MGs?<mgs at autox.team.net>
 Subject:?Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
   ?
  
What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. It being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.
  ?
          
--
   
Max Heim
   
'66 MGB
      ?
   ?
   
  
On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
  ?
     
It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a ride.? My current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I replaced the cam two years ago.? I drove around last year and it was running well, until one day when I stopped at a store for a few minutes and then couldn't get the car restarted.? After trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter for help and we got it push-started.? Yesterday the same thing happened.? After the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than risk another problem.? I was trying some starter fluid to get it going yesterday, but that didn't work.? I thought that maybe the gas in the tank is old, but the car started up after a little cranking when I originally left the house.?
   ?
    
Any suggestions on where to look?? I didn't plumb the coolant line through the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in cold weather so I didn't think it would be needed.? I thought that the problem last summer could have been vapor lock, but starter fluid should have worked if that was the issue.?
   ?
    
Thanks.
   ?
    
--Steve (1980 MGB)?
   
  
          
  
   

|  | Virus-free. www.avg.com  |

 _______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/f4506c6a/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Tue Mar 10 14:33:33 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:33:33 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dxXsF46=VOM-7VM_GAR1tu7St2Gq=a2uRdt-YrDVJ90kw@mail.gmail.com>

One of the advantages of having multiple cars with different gear selector
locations, different pedals, manual gearboxes, automatics, and Tiptronic
padels, etc., is that when I drive these cars I have to THINK about
driving. That makes me also acutely aware of the road and surrounding
traffic!

Rick

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 10:58 AM Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

>    Love your post, Barry. My newest car is 10 years old. My oldest is 67
> years old. The most 'modern' doodad on the newer car is cruise control,
> ABS, and a bluetooth phone option.
>    My youngest sports car is 12 years old, a Porsche 987 Cayman. It is
> pure car with no candy doodads. It is the best car I have ever owned!
>    My MG TD is quite primitive and of course, it's even more
> just-plain-car than any of the others. It does have turn signals, as long
> as one holds the switch in position.
>    Here are my cars (I am one lucky dude!):
>
> '10 Mercedes E350
> '09 Toyota Highlander
> '08 Porsche Cayman
> '97 Nissan Hardbody
> '79 Ferrari 308GTB
> '79 Lancia Beta Zagato
> '75 Triumph TR6
> '73 Jaguar E-Type
> '71 Volvo 1800E
> '53 MG TD
>
> Rick
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2020 8:56 AM, Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> -- Hello folks,
>
> I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I have
> on which to sound off.   I do have my own Aston Martin Feltham Club but
> that is only 150 members.  I am getting exremely puzzled as my 2003 Golf is
> getting a bit sad although it still goes like a rocket.   There is a little
> rust and one of the courtesy lights does not work.   However, whenever I
> have a look at new ones they are gadget rich and the dash is becoming like
> one from a 737.   Why on earth does there have to be a rear end crash
> avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as well as an unwanted-lane
> changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on the road) to say nothing of
> bluetooth (where is yellow and red?), Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free
> telephone (used to be concentration on the road) and the dreaded in your
> face screen which like today's TV and Internet is intent on delivring
> information you don't really need (when did you last ponder over your oil
> temperature?).    So instead of forking out $30-40,000 I am going to have
> the Golf all tarted up and enjoy another 170k kilometers.   The only regret
> will be - it does not have a powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could
> get that retro-fitted!   And in this day and age electonic/electrical
> gadgets die first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.
>
> I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car could be an
> alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy and oiled up to the
> hllt to counter winter driving conditions.  Trouble is I would want to drop
> in a Rover V8 as the engine bay was made for it on later cars - and the
> broom broom is so much better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a little old
> lady with a tiny mileage.  OMG, I am a little old man (I will not get a sex
> change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!  Oh sherbert - now what do I do?
>
> Barrie
>
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2020 8:56 AM, Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> -- Hello folks,
>
> I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I have
> on which to sound off.   I do have my own Aston Martin Feltham Club but
> that is only 150 members.  I am getting exremely puzzled as my 2003 Golf is
> getting a bit sad although it still goes like a rocket.   There is a little
> rust and one of the courtesy lights does not work.   However, whenever I
> have a look at new ones they are gadget rich and the dash is becoming like
> one from a 737.   Why on earth does there have to be a rear end crash
> avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as well as an unwanted-lane
> changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on the road) to say nothing of
> bluetooth (where is yellow and red?), Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free
> telephone (used to be concentration on the road) and the dreaded in your
> face screen which like today's TV and Internet is intent on delivring
> information you don't really need (when did you last ponder over your oil
> temperature?).    So instead of forking out $30-40,000 I am going to have
> the Golf all tarted up and enjoy another 170k kilometers.   The only regret
> will be - it does not have a powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could
> get that retro-fitted!   And in this day and age electonic/electrical
> gadgets die first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.
>
> I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car could be an
> alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy and oiled up to the
> hllt to counter winter driving conditions.  Trouble is I would want to drop
> in a Rover V8 as the engine bay was made for it on later cars - and the
> broom broom is so much better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a little old
> lady with a tiny mileage.  OMG, I am a little old man (I will not get a sex
> change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!  Oh sherbert - now what do I do?
>
> Barrie
>
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2020 8:56 AM, Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> -- Hello folks,
>
> I have this gripe about new cars and this is the only big platform I have
> on which to sound off.   I do have my own Aston Martin Feltham Club but
> that is only 150 members.  I am getting exremely puzzled as my 2003 Golf is
> getting a bit sad although it still goes like a rocket.   There is a little
> rust and one of the courtesy lights does not work.   However, whenever I
> have a look at new ones they are gadget rich and the dash is becoming like
> one from a 737.   Why on earth does there have to be a rear end crash
> avoiding system (used to be rear brake lights) as well as an unwanted-lane
> changing warning (used to be keeping eyes on the road) to say nothing of
> bluetooth (where is yellow and red?), Spotify (dog treatment?), Hands free
> telephone (used to be concentration on the road) and the dreaded in your
> face screen which like today's TV and Internet is intent on delivring
> information you don't really need (when did you last ponder over your oil
> temperature?).    So instead of forking out $30-40,000 I am going to have
> the Golf all tarted up and enjoy another 170k kilometers.   The only regret
> will be - it does not have a powered rear end tailgate - but maybe I could
> get that retro-fitted!   And in this day and age electonic/electrical
> gadgets die first ($$$$$)- and Lucas smoke is unattainable now.
>
> I like my MGB GT so much that maybe another as a 'family' car could be an
> alternative - but not 100% restored just road worthy and oiled up to the
> hllt to counter winter driving conditions.  Trouble is I would want to drop
> in a Rover V8 as the engine bay was made for it on later cars - and the
> broom broom is so much better. Or I coul find a Golf owned by a little old
> lady with a tiny mileage.  OMG, I am a little old man (I will not get a sex
> change) with a low mileage Golf !!!!  Oh sherbert - now what do I do?
>
> Barrie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/7924f795/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Tue Mar 10 14:37:19 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:37:19 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <1095694204.7416235.1583872117917@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
 <EA646FED-AF4C-4058-93EE-B0E9D8D16D22@sonic.net>
 <b0f7c719-a372-3e77-716b-fd44c5b3c6d9@shoyer.com>
 <1095694204.7416235.1583872117917@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dzEyV0_8=fi5MTvd=X5fB2anrt94wLdjqS8uwraGR=TNA@mail.gmail.com>

   When cold, the battery connectors will be tighter thanks to contraction
and of the metal. When hot an otherwise solid connection can become
resistive or even open.
   Next time it won't start, turn on the headlights first and observe them
when attempting a start. If the dim appreciable the batter or its
connectors are the cause.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 3:28 PM Michael MacLean via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Battery connections can "look" fine.  There is a corrosion that sets up
> with disuse and the battery tenders tend to foster this.  Just take off the
> battery connections and clean off the battery posts with a battery cleaning
> tool.  You know, the one with the stiff steel bristles you put over the
> post and turn back and forth.  Then do the same for the battery cable
> connections.  You would be surprised how many times it's the simple things
> like this that are the problem.
> Mike MacLean
> 69 MGB GT
>
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 1:21:59 PM PDT, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <
> mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>
> I actually look at the battery connections every time I drive, when I
> disconnect and then reconnect the battery tender clamps.  They seem clean
> and tight.
>
> If the battery (or battery connection) was bad, would there still be
> enough power to start the car when it was cold, and to run the starter for
> a long time after the car was warm but wouldn't start?  I can try
> disconnecting the battery tender to see how the battery reacts to only
> charging from the alternator.
>
> --Steve  (1980 MGB)
> On 3/10/2020 3:50 PM, Max Heim via Mgs wrote:
>
> Head? Coil? Now you?re grasping at straws. And carb doesn?t match the
> symptoms.
>
> I think Mike was right. Clean and tighten the battery connections. They
> are out of sight so are frequently neglected. Have you looked at them since
> you installed the battery?
>
>
> --
> Max Heim
> '66 MGB
>
> On Mar 10, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years
> old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.  I didn't
> have any trouble getting the starter to crank, and I was running the
> starter for a while without the battery appearing to run down.
>
> I'll have to test it by starting the car cold, driving it around my
> neighborhood for a while, then parking it back in my garage and trying to
> restart it after 20-30 minutes.  If it won't start I can pull the plugs and
> take a look, and also test the battery to see if it wasn't holding the
> charge.  I can also check compression at that point - maybe the head gets
> loose when it warms up?
>
> I also thought it might be the coil - I had read that sometimes after the
> coil gets warm it can cause intermittent problems.  If that was the case
> I'd think the car wouldn't run after being push started, but I'm far from
> an expert.  I was just guessing at the carb because I've never been good at
> tuning carbs, and it's the last thing I changed on the car.
>
> --Steve
> On 3/10/2020 3:17 PM, Michael MacLean via Mgs wrote:
>
> Check the battery connections, clean and replace.
> Mike MacLean
> 69 MGB GT
>
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 11:41:43 AM PDT, dave via Mgs
> <mgs at autox.team.net> <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>
> What is the voltage on the battery?  See:
>
>
>
> https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/advice/car-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-range
>
>
>
> *From:* Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> *On
> Behalf Of *Max Heim via Mgs
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:59 PM
> *To:* MGs <mgs at autox.team.net> <mgs at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
>
>
> What makes you think it was carb related? The fact that you could push
> start it makes me think it was more likely battery or starter related. It
> being the end of winter, I suspect a flat battery.
>
>
> --
>
> Max Heim
>
> '66 MGB
>
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Steve Shoyer via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> It was in the 70's yesterday, so I took my 1980 MGB out for a ride.  My
> current carb is a Weber 38 DGES that I installed when I replaced the cam
> two years ago.  I drove around last year and it was running well, until one
> day when I stopped at a store for a few minutes and then couldn't get the
> car restarted.  After trying to get it going I wound up calling my daughter
> for help and we got it push-started.  Yesterday the same thing happened.
> After the push start the car ran fine, but I just drove it home rather than
> risk another problem.  I was trying some starter fluid to get it going
> yesterday, but that didn't work.  I thought that maybe the gas in the tank
> is old, but the car started up after a little cranking when I originally
> left the house.
>
>
> Any suggestions on where to look?  I didn't plumb the coolant line through
> the manifold to heat it, but I don't drive too much in cold weather so I
> didn't think it would be needed.  I thought that the problem last summer
> could have been vapor lock, but starter fluid should have worked if that
> was the issue.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --Steve (1980 MGB)
>
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
> <#m_8510077427096754117_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/fcaf674c/attachment.htm>

From mvheim at sonic.net  Tue Mar 10 15:45:07 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:45:07 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
In-Reply-To: <1756669685.3468428.1583870257929@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
 <1756669685.3468428.1583870257929@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3FEA17FA-21C5-42B3-9DB9-CE53825B113A@sonic.net>

Yes, actually, the authority on this topic is the study done for the US military in the 40s. They were in a position where they had to train millions of raw recruits in a short period of time, on unfamiliar equipment. So they wanted to institute consistent controls across all the equipment, because of the rapid turnover of technologies in wartime, and the dozens of different manufacturers of aircraft, tanks and vehicles. Plus, they knew this equipment would be operated under stress (that?s an understatement) and in poor weather and lighting conditions. Pretty much every one of their recommendations is still valid; unfortunately, modern designers trained on onscreen apps feel they can reinvent the wheel at will without considering any of these factors.


--
Max Heim
'66 MGB

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 12:57 PM, David Breneman via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 12:02:31 PM PDT, Max Heim via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> [About digital displays]
> 
> The Air Force did a study about this decades ago, and they found that
> the best way to convey information to a pilot was with a round gauge,
> white on black printing, with the nominal value at the middle of the
> needle's travel, preferably 12:00 or 6:00, depending on orientation.
> 
> 
> David Breneman david_breneman at yahoo.com
> 
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/4f8399b0/attachment.htm>

From steve at shoyer.com  Tue Mar 10 16:42:49 2020
From: steve at shoyer.com (Steve Shoyer)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 18:42:49 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dzEyV0_8=fi5MTvd=X5fB2anrt94wLdjqS8uwraGR=TNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
 <EA646FED-AF4C-4058-93EE-B0E9D8D16D22@sonic.net>
 <b0f7c719-a372-3e77-716b-fd44c5b3c6d9@shoyer.com>
 <1095694204.7416235.1583872117917@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAOc+-dzEyV0_8=fi5MTvd=X5fB2anrt94wLdjqS8uwraGR=TNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <765a4136-73e6-baae-2f4e-57a580e9c1f1@shoyer.com>

I need to replace my gas cap anyway, so I'll add a new ground cable 
(mine is a little frayed) to the order.? When I install the ground cable 
I'll clean the terminals and make sure everything is tight, and I'll see 
if that gets rid of the problem.? Maybe I'll order a spare coil to keep 
in the glove box (I still have trouble unlocking the trunk, but that's a 
different issue :-)) in case I get stuck and need something else to try.

Thanks for the suggestions.? I'm glad that the common opinion is that 
it's not a carb problem.

--Steve (1980 MGB)

On 3/10/2020 4:37 PM, Richard Lindsay wrote:
> ? ?When cold, the battery connectors will be tighter thanks to 
> contraction and of the metal. When hot an otherwise solid connection 
> can become resistive or even open.
> ? ?Next time it won't start, turn on the headlights first and observe 
> them when attempting a start. If the dim appreciable the batter or its 
> connectors are the cause.
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 3:28 PM Michael MacLean via Mgs 
> <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>
>     Battery connections can "look" fine.? There is a corrosion that
>     sets up with disuse and the battery tenders tend to foster this.?
>     Just take off the battery connections and clean off the battery
>     posts with a battery cleaning tool.? You know, the one with the
>     stiff steel bristles you put over the post and turn back and
>     forth.? Then do the same for the battery cable connections.? You
>     would be surprised how many times it's the simple things like this
>     that are the problem.
>     Mike MacLean
>     69 MGB GT
>


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/9a5ae1b2/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 10 17:50:35 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 18:50:35 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <765a4136-73e6-baae-2f4e-57a580e9c1f1@shoyer.com>
References: <846e0214-01bb-442d-b000-1e1907679919.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <846e0214-01bb-442d-b000-1e1907679919@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/42d392a1/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 10 17:50:35 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 18:50:35 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <765a4136-73e6-baae-2f4e-57a580e9c1f1@shoyer.com>
References: <846e0214-01bb-442d-b000-1e1907679919.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <846e0214-01bb-442d-b000-1e1907679919@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200310/42d392a1/attachment-0001.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 02:41:12 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:41:12 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
References: <55385469.132755.1583862378325@email.ionos.com>
 <0F36F88A-D066-4E20-A77A-A06053E71B66@sonic.net>
 <00e101d5f70a$545248b0$fcf6da10$@ranteer.com>
 <479758349.7372527.1583867851052@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a8587c9d-56f4-aae0-b7df-061909af1620@shoyer.com>
Message-ID: <C0845E2D86104E4E87DFE1B04B5ABC27@paul>

Leaving a battery tender plugged in over winter is not a good idea.  It can cover up a failing battery and as soon as you leave it somewhere where it's not plugged in the battery can let you down.  If it's on all the time you don't know when and how often it is going into charge mode.  If you only plug it in periodically you can keep an eye on it and see how long it is in charge mode before it goes into maintenance mode, and that gives you an idea as to the condition of the battery.  About the only good reason for leaving one on all the time is when you are away from the property for some time and will need the car as soon as you return.  But with cut-off switches on all my cars I can leave them a couple of months or more and they will start just fine.

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/51336825/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 02:36:18 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:36:18 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <38615B5774744425BB5451D6DF6EBA2E@paul>

Never mind anything else, digital displays HAVE to be read.  With analogue you just glance at the angle of the needle and you should know what speed you are doing, and that the fuel, temp and oil pressures are good ... oh I forgot, that wouldn't apply to a lot of drivers these days who don't even realise they have an indicator bulb blown when one side starts flashing at double speed.  But trying to keep an EXACT speed?  Really?

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/0b33bf43/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 02:42:46 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:42:46 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
 <1756669685.3468428.1583870257929@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F7D84B66EDEF4FBA803486C3A2BD098A@paul>

Which is why some classic race cars have the tach orientated so maximum permitted rpm has the needle vertical.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  The Air Force did a study about this decades ago, and they found that
  the best way to convey information to a pilot was with a round gauge,
  white on black printing, with the nominal value at the middle of the
  needle's travel, preferably 12:00 or 6:00, depending on orientation.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/4aa595d0/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 02:44:00 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:44:00 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <CAOc+-dxXsF46=VOM-7VM_GAR1tu7St2Gq=a2uRdt-YrDVJ90kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E130D01CAE419F9C651BE8A7E1C60E@paul>

More like makes you think too much about what is going on inside the car, rather than outside which is where your attention SHOULD be.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/3a75acc2/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 02:46:37 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:46:37 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous nw cars
References: <d94e5eca-f5e5-a6c4-7234-a89844022090@bell.net>
 <CABxEc+=t9rGmRkOSUPj+acsFuXZcRrnqQ2e1RSbqXvJm-YCHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D55C7AC6-C59A-4986-8171-135C15DED60A@sonic.net>
 <1756669685.3468428.1583870257929@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3FEA17FA-21C5-42B3-9DB9-CE53825B113A@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CF90EC78363D436B82E654470C9E5E2F@paul>

Never mind 'considering', in the constant quest for a marketing angle they deliberately make theirs different to everybody else's.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  ...  modern designers trained on onscreen apps feel they can reinvent the wheel at will without considering any of these factors.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/256336d3/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 02:51:02 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:51:02 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
 <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
 <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B40E9163CCB543DE97F5A15E1CDD74E2@paul>

I have had to tell my neighbour to stop their visitors parking on my drive!
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  The one thing I have not heard from you guys yet is "And you kids get off my lawn too!"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/7c08a385/attachment.htm>

From mgbobh at gmail.com  Wed Mar 11 05:19:26 2020
From: mgbobh at gmail.com (Robert's New iPad)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 07:19:26 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
In-Reply-To: <B40E9163CCB543DE97F5A15E1CDD74E2@paul>
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
 <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
 <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
 <B40E9163CCB543DE97F5A15E1CDD74E2@paul>
Message-ID: <764FCB24-B651-4C81-87D5-C4339BE44E50@gmail.com>

   Did their GPS-guided self-parking feature put them into your drive?
Bob


> On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:51 AM, PaulHunt73 via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> I have had to tell my neighbour to stop their visitors parking on my drive!
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> The one thing I have not heard from you guys yet is "And you kids get off my lawn too!"
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/ad64e36a/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 11 08:13:26 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:13:26 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <C0845E2D86104E4E87DFE1B04B5ABC27@paul>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/c2f70704/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 11 08:13:26 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:13:26 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <C0845E2D86104E4E87DFE1B04B5ABC27@paul>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/c2f70704/attachment-0001.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 05:35:11 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:35:11 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars
References: <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9.ref@email.android.com>
 <dc840090-1320-496a-9124-322f33f90bb9@email.android.com>
 <35a7fcae-2e17-48ed-4f6a-da7ab0bb7da5@shoyer.com>
 <4AC84B74-692B-4CF1-91B3-345D835B24C6@sonic.net>
 <1963968003.7300191.1583860363370@mail.yahoo.com>
 <B40E9163CCB543DE97F5A15E1CDD74E2@paul>
 <764FCB24-B651-4C81-87D5-C4339BE44E50@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D4E7F9CFAE1D4101ACD52BA5CF24E06B@paul>

Huh, they might have an excuse then.  No, they are ... although perhaps I'd better not say what demographic group they belong to.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robert's New iPad 
  To: PaulHunt73 
  Cc: MGs ; Max Heim 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 11:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [Mgs] Ridiculous new cars


     Did their GPS-guided self-parking feature put them into your drive?
  Bob



  On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:51 AM, PaulHunt73 via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:


    I have had to tell my neighbour to stop their visitors parking on my drive!
      ----- Original Message ----- 


      The one thing I have not heard from you guys yet is "And you kids get off my lawn too!"
    _______________________________________________

    Mgs at autox.team.net
    Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
    Suggested annual donation  $12.75

    Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

    Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/e360e020/attachment.htm>

From barrob at bell.net  Wed Mar 11 08:45:25 2020
From: barrob at bell.net (Barrie Robinson)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:45:25 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>

Hello, hello.?? I thought these new and improved battery chargers did 
not 'over charge' and cuts out when battery is charged.? Am I being 
duped by the battery charging people ??? My 'automatic' charger has been 
on all winter and will remain so until it is broom broom time.

Cheers
Barrie

On 3/11/2020 10:13 AM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
> TOO TRUE!!!
>
> Mine boiled down the electrolyte and EXPLODED we I attempted to start 
> the car. I have one partially deaf ear to prove the point!!!
>
> On Mar 11, 2020 3:41 AM, PaulHunt73 via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>     ?
>     Leaving a battery tender plugged in over winter is not a good
>     idea.? It can cover up a failing battery and as soon as you leave
>     it somewhere where it's not plugged in the battery can let you
>     down.? If it's on all the time you don't know when and how often
>     it is going into charge mode.? If you only plug it in periodically
>     you can keep an eye on it and see how long it is in charge mode
>     before it goes into maintenance mode, and that gives you an idea
>     as to the condition of the battery.? About the only good reason
>     for leaving one on all the time is when you are away from the
>     property for some time and will need the car as soon as you
>     return.? But with cut-off switches on all my cars I can leave them
>     a couple of months or more and they will start just fine.
>     PaulH.
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>
>         Thanks.? I don't think it's the battery.? The battery is about
>         two years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender
>         over the winter.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/83aea647/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 08:56:00 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:56:00 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
 <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
Message-ID: <F378D42E25034C9F91C3F4531186E8EB@paul>

Maintenance and conditioning chargers (as opposed to 'trickle' chargers) should do - until they go faulty.  But even if you consider that a very low risk it's a bad idea to leave them on all the time for the reasons I gave earlier.  If they need to be for a car to start, then there is a problem that should be fixed, not worked-round.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  Hello, hello.   I thought these new and improved battery chargers did not 'over charge' and cuts out when battery is charged.  Am I being duped by the battery charging people ?   My 'automatic' charger has been on all winter and will remain so until it is broom broom time.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/c1f7cfed/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Wed Mar 11 10:03:20 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:03:20 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
 <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dwTTmEBbbuwYb5O00FdJKKhfKMT3ff1dLK6neOMk89F+Q@mail.gmail.com>

check the electrolyte level before continuing.

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:45 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hello, hello.   I thought these new and improved battery chargers did not
> 'over charge' and cuts out when battery is charged.  Am I being duped by
> the battery charging people ?   My 'automatic' charger has been on all
> winter and will remain so until it is broom broom time.
>
> Cheers
> Barrie
>
> On 3/11/2020 10:13 AM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>
> TOO TRUE!!!
>
> Mine boiled down the electrolyte and EXPLODED we I attempted to start the
> car. I have one partially deaf ear to prove the point!!!
>
> On Mar 11, 2020 3:41 AM, PaulHunt73 via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> ?
> Leaving a battery tender plugged in over winter is not a good idea.  It
> can cover up a failing battery and as soon as you leave it somewhere where
> it's not plugged in the battery can let you down.  If it's on all the time
> you don't know when and how often it is going into charge mode.  If you
> only plug it in periodically you can keep an eye on it and see how long it
> is in charge mode before it goes into maintenance mode, and that gives you
> an idea as to the condition of the battery.  About the only good reason for
> leaving one on all the time is when you are away from the property for some
> time and will need the car as soon as you return.  But with cut-off
> switches on all my cars I can leave them a couple of months or more and
> they will start just fine.
>
> PaulH.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years
> old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/473237a0/attachment.htm>

From dan.dibiase at gmail.com  Wed Mar 11 10:07:37 2020
From: dan.dibiase at gmail.com (Dan DiBiase)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:07:37 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dwTTmEBbbuwYb5O00FdJKKhfKMT3ff1dLK6neOMk89F+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
 <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
 <CAOc+-dwTTmEBbbuwYb5O00FdJKKhfKMT3ff1dLK6neOMk89F+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, who buys batteries that aren't sealed these days? ;-)

Dan D
Central NJ USA
http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/


On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:03 PM Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> check the electrolyte level before continuing.
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:45 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <
> mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> Hello, hello.   I thought these new and improved battery chargers did not
>> 'over charge' and cuts out when battery is charged.  Am I being duped by
>> the battery charging people ?   My 'automatic' charger has been on all
>> winter and will remain so until it is broom broom time.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Barrie
>>
>> On 3/11/2020 10:13 AM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>>
>> TOO TRUE!!!
>>
>> Mine boiled down the electrolyte and EXPLODED we I attempted to start the
>> car. I have one partially deaf ear to prove the point!!!
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2020 3:41 AM, PaulHunt73 via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
>> <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Leaving a battery tender plugged in over winter is not a good idea.  It
>> can cover up a failing battery and as soon as you leave it somewhere where
>> it's not plugged in the battery can let you down.  If it's on all the time
>> you don't know when and how often it is going into charge mode.  If you
>> only plug it in periodically you can keep an eye on it and see how long it
>> is in charge mode before it goes into maintenance mode, and that gives you
>> an idea as to the condition of the battery.  About the only good reason for
>> leaving one on all the time is when you are away from the property for some
>> time and will need the car as soon as you return.  But with cut-off
>> switches on all my cars I can leave them a couple of months or more and
>> they will start just fine.
>>
>> PaulH.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years
>> old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/6ff4a068/attachment.htm>

From mgbobh at gmail.com  Wed Mar 11 10:52:35 2020
From: mgbobh at gmail.com (Robert's New iPad)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:52:35 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
 <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
 <CAOc+-dwTTmEBbbuwYb5O00FdJKKhfKMT3ff1dLK6neOMk89F+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9CA21B6C-3578-4F51-A010-B7F2354D23B3@gmail.com>

   I, for one, got one from Interstate recently. That it was not sealed was a surprise, but the fellow said that was the only size 26 they had in the warehouse.  It seemed expensive; I hope it lasts as long as the $39.95 Wal-Mart battery did. 
Bob


> On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:07 PM, Dan DiBiase via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Ok, who buys batteries that aren't sealed these days? ;-)
> 
> Dan D
> Central NJ USA
> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:03 PM Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> check the electrolyte level before continuing.
>> 
>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:45 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>> Hello, hello.   I thought these new and improved battery chargers did not 'over charge' and cuts out when battery is charged.  Am I being duped by the battery charging people ?   My 'automatic' charger has been on all winter and will remain so until it is broom broom time.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> Barrie
>>> 
>>>> On 3/11/2020 10:13 AM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>>>> TOO TRUE!!!
>>>> 
>>>> Mine boiled down the electrolyte and EXPLODED we I attempted to start the car. I have one partially deaf ear to prove the point!!!
>>>> 
>>>> On Mar 11, 2020 3:41 AM, PaulHunt73 via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>> ?
>>>> Leaving a battery tender plugged in over winter is not a good idea.  It can cover up a failing battery and as soon as you leave it somewhere where it's not plugged in the battery can let you down.  If it's on all the time you don't know when and how often it is going into charge mode.  If you only plug it in periodically you can keep an eye on it and see how long it is in charge mode before it goes into maintenance mode, and that gives you an idea as to the condition of the battery.  About the only good reason for leaving one on all the time is when you are away from the property for some time and will need the car as soon as you return.  But with cut-off switches on all my cars I can leave them a couple of months or more and they will start just fine.
>>>>  
>>>> PaulH.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>> 
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>> 
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>> 
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>> 
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/71f3dfbd/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 11 10:39:46 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:39:46 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
 <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
 <CAOc+-dwTTmEBbbuwYb5O00FdJKKhfKMT3ff1dLK6neOMk89F+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89FA4F3974AF4FC59C4B67158F7259BD@paul>

My 6v bought a couple of years ago aren't, nor my V8 12v bought 18 years ago.  My 'modern' is.  I buy batteries based on the application, whether they are sealed or not is irrelevant to me.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  Ok, who buys batteries that aren't sealed these days? ;-)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/7d39e03f/attachment.htm>

From mvheim at sonic.net  Wed Mar 11 11:01:33 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:01:33 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
 <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
 <CAOc+-dwTTmEBbbuwYb5O00FdJKKhfKMT3ff1dLK6neOMk89F+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9E22D38E-1325-4707-915A-8047D9C3E18D@sonic.net>

Probably most of us, even if we don?t realize it.

There really aren?t that many sealed batteries, besides the exotic brands like Optima.

All those standard auto store black batteries are not sealed ? they just hide the caps by making them flush with the top surface, so you need a screwdriver to open them. It?s all for marketing reasons, but many people think they are sealed, and never check the level.


--
Max Heim
mvheim at sonic.net



> On Mar 11, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Dan DiBiase via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Ok, who buys batteries that aren't sealed these days? ;-)
> 
> Dan D
> Central NJ USA
> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/ <http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/>
> 
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:03 PM Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
> check the electrolyte level before continuing.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:45 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
> Hello, hello.   I thought these new and improved battery chargers did not 'over charge' and cuts out when battery is charged.  Am I being duped by the battery charging people ?   My 'automatic' charger has been on all winter and will remain so until it is broom broom time.
> 
> Cheers
> Barrie
> 
> On 3/11/2020 10:13 AM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>> TOO TRUE!!!
>> 
>> Mine boiled down the electrolyte and EXPLODED we I attempted to start the car. I have one partially deaf ear to prove the point!!!
>> 
>> On Mar 11, 2020 3:41 AM, PaulHunt73 via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> ?
>> Leaving a battery tender plugged in over winter is not a good idea.  It can cover up a failing battery and as soon as you leave it somewhere where it's not plugged in the battery can let you down.  If it's on all the time you don't know when and how often it is going into charge mode.  If you only plug it in periodically you can keep an eye on it and see how long it is in charge mode before it goes into maintenance mode, and that gives you an idea as to the condition of the battery.  About the only good reason for leaving one on all the time is when you are away from the property for some time and will need the car as soon as you return.  But with cut-off switches on all my cars I can leave them a couple of months or more and they will start just fine.
>>  
>> PaulH.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> 
>> Thanks.  I don't think it's the battery.  The battery is about two years old, and it's been plugged into a battery tender over the winter.
>> 
>> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/e2a3912a/attachment.htm>

From Charley38 at twc.com  Wed Mar 11 15:18:39 2020
From: Charley38 at twc.com (Charley Robinson)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:18:39 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
In-Reply-To: <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac.ref@email.android.com>
 <63f42f03-7047-49c0-bea0-963aa80942ac@email.android.com>
 <8dfb061c-36bc-e493-8db0-e26fd64ac791@bell.net>
 <CAOc+-dwTTmEBbbuwYb5O00FdJKKhfKMT3ff1dLK6neOMk89F+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABxEc+nQr95opgaswvpxSXtxobd0YuqcpKE0E+ih6iwca-xyag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a99476f4-0235-7aac-467a-140110689821@twc.com>

I, for one. :-) I just bought a Flooded Lead Acid (FLA),? Group 27DP 
Marine Starting/Deep Cycle battery for my recently acquired class C 
motor home.? It's going to be hooked up in parallel with the alike one 
that's in there already.? The pair will be the "house battery."? I 
brought the new battery home a hour or so ago, put it on the charger & 
checked the electrolyte level.? Two cells needed topping up! Made a 
mental note to check the battery that's in the rig for electrolyte 
level.? The MH is a 2019, was put on the road 2/19 so I'm hoping the 
original battery will live with the new one as long as I get the state 
of charge (SOC) of each the same to begin with. Funny thing is I traded 
in the Jap SLA from my Prius for a core.? I have an Optima in the Prius.

My MGB has a Group 26R FLA in it.? I keep it on a battery tender in the 
winter but I start the car every couple of weeks & drive it around a bit 
if the weather's good enough.? No road salt in south Texas.? Hmmm, I 
need to check the electrolyte level in the B's battery.

CR

On 3/11/2020 11:07 AM, Dan DiBiase via Mgs wrote:
> Ok, who buys batteries that aren't sealed these days? ;-)
>
> Dan D
> Central NJ USA
> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
>
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200311/863013f4/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Thu Mar 12 17:47:21 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 23:47:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Passenger Window Adjustment
References: <1959643598.1058847.1584056841355.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1959643598.1058847.1584056841355@mail.yahoo.com>

My 69 MGB GT passenger side window is cocked towards the back of the car.? It hits the rear b-pillar trim frame.? If it is up all the way you cannot shut the door because of the overlap.? How do I adjust this?
Mike MacLean69 MGB GT60 Bugeye56 Austin Healey BN2
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200312/932944a5/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Fri Mar 13 02:34:08 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:34:08 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Passenger Window Adjustment
References: <1959643598.1058847.1584056841355.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1959643598.1058847.1584056841355@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <72EC2ACA8CB740308BC5721D189E3383@paul>

Is it fully in the front channel?  Or angled back from it at the top that side as well?

If the former then about the only thing you can do - assuming you have the space there without hitting the back of the screen upright - is to see if you can move the quarter-light frame forwards.  Ordinarily there is only one position for them which is fully up and fully forwards within the structure of the door.  Check there are no spacers on the front fixings, and that they are tightened bit by bit along with the studs that go through the top of the door frame.  If the top ones are fully tightened first they may be preventing the QL coming forwards as far as it might.  Otherwise the only adjustment will be the door on the hinges.

If the glass is coming out of the front channel then see if the rear channel can be repositioned to move the glass forwards, and that the glass isn't binding in it.  Also that the regulator mechanism isn't binding at the rear.

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  My 69 MGB GT passenger side window is cocked towards the back of the car.  It hits the rear b-pillar trim frame.  If it is up all the way you cannot shut the door because of the overlap.  How do I adjust this?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200313/5ffc0d33/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 13 05:06:26 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 06:06:26 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Passenger Window Adjustment
In-Reply-To: <72EC2ACA8CB740308BC5721D189E3383@paul>
References: <d15e5067-3315-44a1-a324-0e17a350a5d4.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <d15e5067-3315-44a1-a324-0e17a350a5d4@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200313/50595076/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Mon Mar 16 13:08:47 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:08:47 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Update
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dy8fo6D9wNf3L11NreoX_RLQLNT6UKGBxciX_SrGms7KA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello friends,
   I hope this note finds you healthy and safe. We're okay here in far
northwest Houston and staying away for all others. That said...
   I am going out for a can of fuel for my T-Series car. The tank is bone
dry. But I can do that without being close to others, then a good wash-up
after handling the pump should keep me bug-free.
   A few days ago I brought my classic exotic home from the shop. In
addition to work finishing the TD (it's 98% done), I plan to do a hard
detail on the 308GTB, inside and out.
   You? How are you spending your time away from others? Pulling a few
spanners? It seems to me that this is an ideal time to do routine
maintenance, detailing, and tire services, all in advance of spring and
happier times. Stay at home and baby your LBC (and my BIC).

Rick
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200316/fc0ef520/attachment.htm>

From dave at ranteer.com  Tue Mar 17 14:43:24 2020
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 15:43:24 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] new old convertible top
Message-ID: <000f01d5fc9c$b4c2a310$1e47e930$@ranteer.com>

Finally, after a decade +, I pulled the vinyl convertible top out of the box
getting ready to install.  Other than using a hair dryer or sunny day to get
the folds out, are there any other recommendations?

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200317/4d162893/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Tue Mar 17 14:47:43 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 15:47:43 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] new old convertible top
In-Reply-To: <000f01d5fc9c$b4c2a310$1e47e930$@ranteer.com>
References: <000f01d5fc9c$b4c2a310$1e47e930$@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dyTonoEDxrWHW55x0GYWWN5ZepjUYyTVOyTDaEq6Ah5bg@mail.gmail.com>

You are such a good influence on the rest of us!

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 3:45 PM dave via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Finally, after a decade +, I pulled the vinyl convertible top out of the
> box getting ready to install.  Other than using a hair dryer or sunny day
> to get the folds out, are there any other recommendations?
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200317/10927d87/attachment.htm>

From h.duinhoven at planet.nl  Tue Mar 17 15:17:10 2020
From: h.duinhoven at planet.nl (Hans Duinhoven)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 22:17:10 +0100
Subject: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting
Message-ID: <00b301d5fca1$6b9a0d90$42ce28b0$@planet.nl>

Depends how the trickle chargers work.

Being from 1974 on in IT I still learn every day.

So I Did today as well. The last 30 years I?m specialized in enterprise data storage solutions.

One of my customers was suffering of a nasty problem: a failing battery.

The battery is used in the storage controller to back-up the write cache memory, if there is a power failure.

Now the problem was more about faulty firmware in the storage controller, so the support engineer explained to me how the battery charging is controlled in such a storage system. 

Most trickle chargers act like an on/off switching power supply with a 50% duty cycle.

That is because it is cheap to make.

The storage system I write about is over 5 years old and all the time it is charging the battery.

So one would expect, that the battery might fail much more often that after that period than a few per hundreds of systems.

The reason for this is, that the charging power supply is computer controlled.

The charging period is normally on for a short period every 10 minutes or so.

So when the charging is well controlled, batteries will last very long.

Also quality of all components in the entire circuit determine how long the products will life.

An nice example was the battery in my Audi A6 I used as a daily driver from 2003 - 2007 (Built August 2000).

The car still had its first battery when the car was taken back to the company.

The odometer read 343,000 Km. The battery never failed, not did the charging circuit.

The modern trickle chargers will act like Barrie described. 

 

Cheers,

Hans

 

Van: Mgs [mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net] Namens PaulHunt73 via Mgs
Verzonden: woensdag 11 maart 2020 15:56
Aan: Barrie Robinson; mgs at autox.team.net
Onderwerp: Re: [Mgs] MGB not (re)starting

 

Maintenance and conditioning chargers (as opposed to 'trickle' chargers) should do - until they go faulty.  But even if you consider that a very low risk it's a bad idea to leave them on all the time for the reasons I gave earlier.  If they need to be for a car to start, then there is a problem that should be fixed, not worked-round.

----- Original Message ----- 

 

Hello, hello.   I thought these new and improved battery chargers did not 'over charge' and cuts out when battery is charged.  Am I being duped by the battery charging people ?   My 'automatic' charger has been on all winter and will remain so until it is broom broom time.



-- 
Dit e-mailbericht is gecontroleerd op virussen met Avast antivirussoftware.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200317/f6c053cc/attachment.htm>

From paul at ece.rochester.edu  Tue Mar 17 17:45:04 2020
From: paul at ece.rochester.edu (Osborne, Paul)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 23:45:04 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] new old convertible top
In-Reply-To: <000f01d5fc9c$b4c2a310$1e47e930$@ranteer.com>
References: <000f01d5fc9c$b4c2a310$1e47e930$@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <C6EFFBA2-DF77-4617-8DD7-F3AA5B43B176@ur.rochester.edu>

Dave,   take you time, be in no hurry.  Use good contact cement for the windshield bow. Warm is your friend. If you have access to a steamer, that is much better than a hairdryer.

paul


On Mar 17, 2020, at 4:43 PM, dave via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net<mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:

Finally, after a decade +, I pulled the vinyl convertible top out of the box getting ready to install.  Other than using a hair dryer or sunny day to get the folds out, are there any other recommendations?
_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net<mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
Donate: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_donate.html&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=t0n-o27x8XpapXcIMVn4IICUeGHkgdKHMZbjn36QuiI&s=_dYQCWDFfO7A1UN17FVUMCBffJg9kLRwjrkdXAcnDsY&e=
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_pipermail_mgs&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=t0n-o27x8XpapXcIMVn4IICUeGHkgdKHMZbjn36QuiI&s=DXT0mfb6_2uE2sEh64mRUaGw3ZxOY8bRPCWg6qMhWso&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_archive&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=t0n-o27x8XpapXcIMVn4IICUeGHkgdKHMZbjn36QuiI&s=RKqPGy_qfvdUr9LTV7m29lKd1G3Fm3cbnUvSsgq-sNk&e=

Unsubscribe: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_mailman_options_mgs_paul-40ece.rochester.edu&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=t0n-o27x8XpapXcIMVn4IICUeGHkgdKHMZbjn36QuiI&s=pZrnanvjZ0XinpwmAWdKjJT8EQkW4jnmjSdlx6spqCU&e=

Paul Osborne
Paul's Canvas
7379 E Main St
Lima NY 14485
585-255-0531



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200317/4f9cabbd/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Wed Mar 18 02:17:55 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 08:17:55 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] new old convertible top
References: <000f01d5fc9c$b4c2a310$1e47e930$@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <45E6F227D0614C78B90A5E55995744A2@paul>

Fit it and leave it fitted for a while.  It might need heat of some kind underneath to get the front snaps fully fastened.

PaulH
  ----- Original Message ----- 


  Finally, after a decade +, I pulled the vinyl convertible top out of the box getting ready to install.  Other than using a hair dryer or sunny day to get the folds out, are there any other recommendations?

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200318/2718c089/attachment.htm>

From dave at ranteer.com  Sat Mar 21 13:36:38 2020
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:36:38 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
Message-ID: <000001d5ffb8$0ab24be0$2016e3a0$@ranteer.com>

The mga and mgb transmission and oil drain plug ? I?m wanting to get
magnetic ones to catch shavings, etc.

 

They are ?? npt?

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200321/930b5d61/attachment.htm>

From barneymg at mgaguru.com  Sun Mar 22 08:35:31 2020
From: barneymg at mgaguru.com (Barney Gaylord)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:35:31 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
In-Reply-To: <000001d5ffb8$0ab24be0$2016e3a0$@ranteer.com>
References: <000001d5ffb8$0ab24be0$2016e3a0$@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.52.1584887741.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

Gearbox and differential have NPT plugs (tapered 
pipe threads).  Engines have BSPS drain plug 
(British Standard Pipe Straight thread), and that one needs a sealing washer.




At 03:36 PM 3/21/2020, dave via Mgs wrote:
>....
>The mga and mgb transmission and oil drain plug 
>? I?m wanting to get magnetic ones to catch shavings, etc.
>
>They are ?? npt?
>....


From barneymg at mgaguru.com  Sun Mar 22 09:25:08 2020
From: barneymg at mgaguru.com (Barney Gaylord)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 11:25:08 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
In-Reply-To: <000001d60058$3431f6a0$9c95e3e0$@ranteer.com>
References: <000001d5ffb8$0ab24be0$2016e3a0$@ranteer.com>
 <000001d60058$3431f6a0$9c95e3e0$@ranteer.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.53.1584890971.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

Okay, here's the long version.

For the engine drain plug,
1/4-inch BSPP or G-1/4 (plus a sealing washer)
see: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of108.htm
and http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/cooling/cool_201.htm

For gearbox drain, and differential fill and drain plugs,
1/2-14 NPT (plus thread sealing, recommend Tefon tape)
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/rearaxle/ra117.htm
Original plugs had square female socket drive, 
slightly tapered (forged), and could be two 
different sizes.  The smaller one can be driven 
direclty with a 3/8" drive socket wrench without 
a socket or adapter.  The larger one needs a 
slightly larger tapered square male drive key 
(which can easily be made from a 3/8" to 1/2" drive adapter).
Hex female socket, square drive and hex drive 
heads are also available, but, recommend a flush 
socket drive plug for bottom of gearbox and differential.


At 10:43 AM 3/22/2020, dave wrote:
>What size are they?


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com>
>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 9:36 AM
>To: dave <dave at ranteer.com>; mgs at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
>
>Gearbox and differential have NPT plugs (tapered pipe threads).  Engines
>have BSPS drain plug (British Standard Pipe Straight thread),
>or  BSPP (British Standard Pipe Parallel thread),
>and that one needs a sealing washer.


>At 03:36 PM 3/21/2020, dave via Mgs wrote:
> >....
> >The mga and mgb transmission and oil drain plug ? I?m wanting to get
> >magnetic ones to catch shavings, etc.
> >
> >They are ?? npt?
> >....


From thgun at comporium.net  Wed Mar 25 14:52:10 2020
From: thgun at comporium.net (Thomas Gunderson)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:52:10 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Mirror
Message-ID: <E3C1B83D-15A8-4A49-B072-0242645B2AF6@comporium.net>


Good afternoon,

Spending sometime working on my car. I need to tighten my fender mirror. It sits just beyond the windshield. On the left side. I think it had been replaced with a moss replacement mirror. Does anyone know the size of the nut? I have had to use a long wrench extention and not having a good time getting it to grab the nut. 
Any thoughts?

Tom Gunderson 
1957  1500 mga rst

Sent from my iPhone X




From mvheim at sonic.net  Wed Mar 25 14:58:15 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:58:15 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] Mirror
In-Reply-To: <E3C1B83D-15A8-4A49-B072-0242645B2AF6@comporium.net>
References: <E3C1B83D-15A8-4A49-B072-0242645B2AF6@comporium.net>
Message-ID: <66DE3576-8E19-4FA9-AD3C-FBC65E79C0AA@sonic.net>

Maybe it?s metric, since it?s a repro part.


--
Max Heim
'66 MGB

> On Mar 25, 2020, at 1:52 PM, Thomas Gunderson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Good afternoon,
> 
> Spending sometime working on my car. I need to tighten my fender mirror. It sits just beyond the windshield. On the left side. I think it had been replaced with a moss replacement mirror. Does anyone know the size of the nut? I have had to use a long wrench extention and not having a good time getting it to grab the nut. 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Tom Gunderson 
> 1957  1500 mga rst
> 
> Sent from my iPhone X
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200325/5ef99be2/attachment.htm>

From mvheim at sonic.net  Wed Mar 25 18:42:03 2020
From: mvheim at sonic.net (Max Heim)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:42:03 -0700
Subject: [Mgs] Mirror
In-Reply-To: <8CB3D5C0-864B-4417-B7D6-EF505E05983C@comporium.net>
References: <66DE3576-8E19-4FA9-AD3C-FBC65E79C0AA@sonic.net>
 <8CB3D5C0-864B-4417-B7D6-EF505E05983C@comporium.net>
Message-ID: <08DC0D03-56C5-415F-B758-75F32D091CCD@sonic.net>

I used this mirror from Moss.

https://mossmotors.com/mirror-door-left-right <https://mossmotors.com/mirror-door-left-right>

I used a spider washer on the inside so it would grip well and not loosen. You might try that as a first solution.

--
Max Heim
'66 MGB

> On Mar 25, 2020, at 5:16 PM, Thomas Gunderson <thgun at comporium.net> wrote:
> 
> I got a 9 mm to grab. I had my wife hold the mirror while I was on my back under the car. Jacked up and braced. The nut did not tighten. So I think I have to remove the mirror nut and add a washer or two so it will tighten.  I may have to replace the mirror if it won?t tighten. Do you know of a good brand or prefer another dealer other than Moss?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone X
> 
> 
>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Max Heim <mvheim at sonic.net> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Maybe it?s metric, since it?s a repro part.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Max Heim
>> '66 MGB
>> 
>>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 1:52 PM, Thomas Gunderson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Good afternoon,
>>> 
>>> Spending sometime working on my car. I need to tighten my fender mirror. It sits just beyond the windshield. On the left side. I think it had been replaced with a moss replacement mirror. Does anyone know the size of the nut? I have had to use a long wrench extention and not having a good time getting it to grab the nut. 
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Tom Gunderson 
>>> 1957  1500 mga rst
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone X
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>> 
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net
>>> 
>> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200325/101c9409/attachment.htm>

From rrengineer.mike at att.net  Wed Mar 25 19:14:53 2020
From: rrengineer.mike at att.net (Michael MacLean)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 01:14:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mgs] Mirror
In-Reply-To: <08DC0D03-56C5-415F-B758-75F32D091CCD@sonic.net>
References: <66DE3576-8E19-4FA9-AD3C-FBC65E79C0AA@sonic.net>
 <8CB3D5C0-864B-4417-B7D6-EF505E05983C@comporium.net>
 <08DC0D03-56C5-415F-B758-75F32D091CCD@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <587011515.2256872.1585185293168@mail.yahoo.com>

 That's same mirror I have om my 69 GT.? The previous owner mounted backwards or upside down because I can onlt open the vent window a little before it hist the mirror.? I should turn it over!Mike MacLean69 MGB GT60 Bugeye56 Austin Healey BN2

    On Wednesday, March 25, 2020, 5:42:21 PM PDT, Max Heim via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 I used this mirror from Moss.
https://mossmotors.com/mirror-door-left-right
I used a spider washer on the inside so it would grip well and not loosen. You might try that as a first solution.
--Max Heim'66 MGB

On Mar 25, 2020, at 5:16 PM, Thomas Gunderson <thgun at comporium.net> wrote:
I got a 9 mm to grab. I had my wife hold the mirror while I was on my back under the car. Jacked up and braced. The nut did not tighten. So I think I have to remove the mirror nut and add a washer or two so it will tighten. ?I may have to replace the mirror if it won?t tighten. Do you know of a good brand or prefer another dealer other than Moss?

Sent from my iPhone X


On Mar 25, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Max Heim <mvheim at sonic.net> wrote:



? Maybe it?s metric, since it?s a repro part.

--Max Heim'66 MGB

On Mar 25, 2020, at 1:52 PM, Thomas Gunderson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:

Good afternoon,

Spending sometime working on my car. I need to tighten my fender mirror. It sits just beyond the windshield. On the left side. I think it had been replaced with a moss replacement mirror. Does anyone know the size of the nut? I have had to use a long wrench extention and not having a good time getting it to grab the nut. 
Any thoughts?

Tom Gunderson 
1957 ?1500 mga rst

Sent from my iPhone X



_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation ?$12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mvheim at sonic.net






_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/rrengineer.mike at att.net
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/7e819d3f/attachment.htm>

From barneymg at mgaguru.com  Wed Mar 25 21:06:01 2020
From: barneymg at mgaguru.com (Barney Gaylord)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 23:06:01 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Mirror
In-Reply-To: <E3C1B83D-15A8-4A49-B072-0242645B2AF6@comporium.net>
References: <E3C1B83D-15A8-4A49-B072-0242645B2AF6@comporium.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.57.1585191973.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

Should be  5/16-24-UNF thread with 1/2" hex nut (1/2" socket size).


At 04:52 PM 3/25/2020, Thomas Gunderson via Mgs wrote:

>Good afternoon,
>
>Spending sometime working on my car. I need to tighten my fender 
>mirror. It sits just beyond the windshield. On the left side. I 
>think it had been replaced with a moss replacement mirror. Does 
>anyone know the size of the nut? I have had to use a long wrench 
>extention and not having a good time getting it to grab the nut.
>Any thoughts?
>
>Tom Gunderson
>1957  1500 mga rst
>....


From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 09:17:49 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:17:49 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dzsqS2n7osx2B8Rpz87tD+hciMdjUMBOojXN3CBBwRnEg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello friends,
   We're house-bound here in Houston with a stay-at-home order in place. My
chores are done and Nancy's SUV is 'clayed' and waxed. It looks as-new,
which is pretty good for any SUV.
   This morning, after finishing the Toyota, I went back to work on my '53
MG TD. It started right up and ran up to a smooth 3000rpm. After that, the
choke control immediately went in a bit leaving the engine to idle at
2000rpm, with the choke lightly applied. After warm, and with the choke
pushed full in, the idle dropped to about 900rpm, with a few misses
preventing a totally smooth idle. And those words begin my question.
  The engine stumbles when given a little 'wellie' and after gaining engine
speed, it runs quite unevenly. No amount of coaxing will get it over
3000rpm. So, what's wrong?! Timing is set properly.
   The stumble is characteristic of leaning out, as when the carb dampers
are empty. And overly lean charge is indicated by the fact that when cold,
with enrichment, to engine will rev to 3000rpm easily.
   I'm going to lower the jets another couple of 'flats' to see if that
helps. In the mean time I ask: What else might I have missed?

Rick
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/397ba1cb/attachment.htm>

From ddarby at centurytel.net  Thu Mar 26 10:34:43 2020
From: ddarby at centurytel.net (David F. Darby)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 11:34:43 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dzsqS2n7osx2B8Rpz87tD+hciMdjUMBOojXN3CBBwRnEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOc+-dzsqS2n7osx2B8Rpz87tD+hciMdjUMBOojXN3CBBwRnEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801d6038c$7520d8c0$5f628a40$@centurytel.net>

Hello Rick,

 

You might check for worn throttle shafts.

 

David

 

From: Mgs [mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard Lindsay via Mgs
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:18 AM
To: mgs at autox.team.net List
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question

 

Hello friends,

   We're house-bound here in Houston with a stay-at-home order in place. My chores are done and Nancy's SUV is 'clayed' and waxed. It looks as-new, which is pretty good for any SUV.

   This morning, after finishing the Toyota, I went back to work on my '53 MG TD. It started right up and ran up to a smooth 3000rpm. After that, the choke control immediately went in a bit leaving the engine to idle at 2000rpm, with the choke lightly applied. After warm, and with the choke pushed full in, the idle dropped to about 900rpm, with a few misses preventing a totally smooth idle. And those words begin my question.

  The engine stumbles when given a little 'wellie' and after gaining engine speed, it runs quite unevenly. No amount of coaxing will get it over 3000rpm. So, what's wrong?! Timing is set properly.

   The stumble is characteristic of leaning out, as when the carb dampers are empty. And overly lean charge is indicated by the fact that when cold, with enrichment, to engine will rev to 3000rpm easily. 

   I'm going to lower the jets another couple of 'flats' to see if that helps. In the mean time I ask: What else might I have missed?

 

Rick

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/4d7e062d/attachment.htm>

From paul at ece.rochester.edu  Thu Mar 26 10:49:59 2020
From: paul at ece.rochester.edu (Osborne, Paul)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:49:59 +0000
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question*
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dzsqS2n7osx2B8Rpz87tD+hciMdjUMBOojXN3CBBwRnEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOc+-dzsqS2n7osx2B8Rpz87tD+hciMdjUMBOojXN3CBBwRnEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8793DC8-C775-4F24-8DD7-A10E831705D0@ur.rochester.edu>

Rick,  Lean, maybe. What do the plugs look like?  If I understand here, simply the engine will not rev over 3000 even it the throttle is wide open.

paul


On Mar 26, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net<mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>> wrote:

Hello friends,
   We're house-bound here in Houston with a stay-at-home order in place. My chores are done and Nancy's SUV is 'clayed' and waxed. It looks as-new, which is pretty good for any SUV.
   This morning, after finishing the Toyota, I went back to work on my '53 MG TD. It started right up and ran up to a smooth 3000rpm. After that, the choke control immediately went in a bit leaving the engine to idle at 2000rpm, with the choke lightly applied. After warm, and with the choke pushed full in, the idle dropped to about 900rpm, with a few misses preventing a totally smooth idle. And those words begin my question.
  The engine stumbles when given a little 'wellie' and after gaining engine speed, it runs quite unevenly. No amount of coaxing will get it over 3000rpm. So, what's wrong?! Timing is set properly.
   The stumble is characteristic of leaning out, as when the carb dampers are empty. And overly lean charge is indicated by the fact that when cold, with enrichment, to engine will rev to 3000rpm easily.
   I'm going to lower the jets another couple of 'flats' to see if that helps. In the mean time I ask: What else might I have missed?

Rick
_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net<mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
Donate: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_donate.html&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=4k6abiNPchjwwvdEcNv9PL1EKw-qeKQY8WfnvNmMfUY&s=_uJEriSRySPsaWsKhD_zmihq0rqBjxSMasNooSMg4XA&e=
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.team.net_pipermail_mgs&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=4k6abiNPchjwwvdEcNv9PL1EKw-qeKQY8WfnvNmMfUY&s=5GFZuP7D3uqGudccIKmC1DrckDeO3oshf_fLLE_8o4s&e=  https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_archive&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=4k6abiNPchjwwvdEcNv9PL1EKw-qeKQY8WfnvNmMfUY&s=uE8GaaS0ipjKFYepRduv_D6JPi2LJJ7gBFKccnjoMwY&e=

Unsubscribe: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__autox.team.net_mailman_options_mgs_paul-40ece.rochester.edu&d=DwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=j_uK0-rtrtcKZ8O0aGq-Y5ZUDfHjCD_Cv57WMn_czag&m=4k6abiNPchjwwvdEcNv9PL1EKw-qeKQY8WfnvNmMfUY&s=Ksp3XyIKLUQc-g4aPrb5_o8rSG3xxRnRTcE3hjWRNmg&e=

Paul Osborne
Department of Electrical and Computer Eng
University of Rochester
201 Hopeman Building RC
Rochester NY 14627
   585-275-5226





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/cd20e9cd/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 26 13:56:00 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:56:00 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
In-Reply-To: <004801d6038c$7520d8c0$5f628a40$@centurytel.net>
References: <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/b67ea976/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 26 13:56:00 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:56:00 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
In-Reply-To: <004801d6038c$7520d8c0$5f628a40$@centurytel.net>
References: <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/b67ea976/attachment-0001.htm>

From mgbobh at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 18:01:56 2020
From: mgbobh at gmail.com (Robert's New iPad)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:56 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
In-Reply-To: <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470@email.android.com>
References: <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470.ref@email.android.com>
 <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <2EFF6BF6-FB87-444E-912B-5D9455C4A085@gmail.com>

   Advanced Distributors has many happy customers.  Jeff has done one for my TD and one for the MGB.


> On Mar 26, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> My error. The Pertronix distributor went on my TR3, not the TD. 
> 
> Timing was too far advanced. 
> 
> Shaft is worn (timing jumps around).
> 
> R
> 
> On Mar 26, 2020 11:34 AM, "David F. Darby via Mgs" <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
> Hello Rick,
> 
>  
> 
> You might check for worn throttle shafts.
> 
>  
> 
> David
> 
>  
> 
> From: Mgs [mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard Lindsay via Mgs
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:18 AM
> To: mgs at autox.team.net List
> Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
> 
>  
> 
> Hello friends,
> 
>    We're house-bound here in Houston with a stay-at-home order in place. My chores are done and Nancy's SUV is 'clayed' and waxed. It looks as-new, which is pretty good for any SUV.
> 
>    This morning, after finishing the Toyota, I went back to work on my '53 MG TD. It started right up and ran up to a smooth 3000rpm. After that, the choke control immediately went in a bit leaving the engine to idle at 2000rpm, with the choke lightly applied. After warm, and with the choke pushed full in, the idle dropped to about 900rpm, with a few misses preventing a totally smooth idle. And those words begin my question.
> 
>   The engine stumbles when given a little 'wellie' and after gaining engine speed, it runs quite unevenly. No amount of coaxing will get it over 3000rpm. So, what's wrong?! Timing is set properly.
> 
>    The stumble is characteristic of leaning out, as when the carb dampers are empty. And overly lean charge is indicated by the fact that when cold, with enrichment, to engine will rev to 3000rpm easily. 
> 
>    I'm going to lower the jets another couple of 'flats' to see if that helps. In the mean time I ask: What else might I have missed?
> 
>  
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/78b284a1/attachment.htm>

From dave at ranteer.com  Thu Mar 26 19:10:50 2020
From: dave at ranteer.com (dave)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:10:50 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
In-Reply-To: <2EFF6BF6-FB87-444E-912B-5D9455C4A085@gmail.com>
References: <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470.ref@email.android.com>
 <daa27169-0d6b-45b6-b442-74d60349e470@email.android.com>
 <2EFF6BF6-FB87-444E-912B-5D9455C4A085@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d603d4$8e6ce6a0$ab46b3e0$@ranteer.com>

+1 on advanced distributors

 

From: Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Robert's New iPad via Mgs
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 7:02 PM
To: rolindsay at yahoo.com
Cc: mgs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Mgs] XPAG question

 

   Advanced Distributors has many happy customers.  Jeff has done one for my TD and one for the MGB.

 


On Mar 26, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> > wrote:

My error. The Pertronix distributor went on my TR3, not the TD. 

 

Timing was too far advanced. 

 

Shaft is worn (timing jumps around).

 

R

 

On Mar 26, 2020 11:34 AM, "David F. Darby via Mgs" <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> > wrote:

Hello Rick,

 

You might check for worn throttle shafts.

 

David

 

From: Mgs [mailto:mgs-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Richard Lindsay via Mgs
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:18 AM
To: mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net>  List
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question

 

Hello friends,

   We're house-bound here in Houston with a stay-at-home order in place. My chores are done and Nancy's SUV is 'clayed' and waxed. It looks as-new, which is pretty good for any SUV.

   This morning, after finishing the Toyota, I went back to work on my '53 MG TD. It started right up and ran up to a smooth 3000rpm. After that, the choke control immediately went in a bit leaving the engine to idle at 2000rpm, with the choke lightly applied. After warm, and with the choke pushed full in, the idle dropped to about 900rpm, with a few misses preventing a totally smooth idle. And those words begin my question.

  The engine stumbles when given a little 'wellie' and after gaining engine speed, it runs quite unevenly. No amount of coaxing will get it over 3000rpm. So, what's wrong?! Timing is set properly.

   The stumble is characteristic of leaning out, as when the carb dampers are empty. And overly lean charge is indicated by the fact that when cold, with enrichment, to engine will rev to 3000rpm easily. 

   I'm going to lower the jets another couple of 'flats' to see if that helps. In the mean time I ask: What else might I have missed?

 

Rick

 

_______________________________________________

Mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh at gmail.com

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/40930cf2/attachment.htm>

From rolindsay at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 26 19:25:40 2020
From: rolindsay at yahoo.com (rolindsay at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:25:40 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
In-Reply-To: <000001d603d4$8e6ce6a0$ab46b3e0$@ranteer.com>
References: <58639e0e-ce19-4305-96e8-f2a93ba6f3f8.ref@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <58639e0e-ce19-4305-96e8-f2a93ba6f3f8@email.android.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/01128b4c/attachment.htm>

From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Mar 26 19:45:09 2020
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:45:09 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] XPAG question
In-Reply-To: <58639e0e-ce19-4305-96e8-f2a93ba6f3f8@email.android.com>
References: <58639e0e-ce19-4305-96e8-f2a93ba6f3f8.ref@email.android.com>
 <58639e0e-ce19-4305-96e8-f2a93ba6f3f8@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <63.30.05689.9CA5D7E5@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I'll add my +1 to Advanced Distributors, but I would also like to 
recommend Rob Medynski at British Vacuum Unit in New 
Hampshire. 
<https://www.britishvacuumunit.com/>https://www.britishvacuumunit.com/

At 09:25 PM 3/26/2020, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>Thanks everyone.
>
>On Mar 26, 2020 8:10 PM, dave via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>+1 on advanced distributors


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200326/62f9fe4f/attachment.htm>

From weberstevej at aol.com  Fri Mar 27 10:46:40 2020
From: weberstevej at aol.com (Steve Weber)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 12:46:40 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Mgs Digest, Vol 154, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4.1584900001.16378.mgs@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.4.1584900001.16378.mgs@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <FD721D9A-438A-4062-834E-ABA9034F71D2@aol.com>

Just a thought but the box stores sell rare earth magnets 1/8? by 3/8? or 1/2? dia. They are very strong.  I would think ?attaching? one of these magnetically to the inside of the plug should work just fine. Where would they go? And the beauty is you don?t have to buy a new plug! 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 22, 2020, at 2:07 PM, mgs-request at autox.team.net wrote:
> 
> ?Send Mgs mailing list submissions to
>    mgs at autox.team.net
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>    http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/mgs
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>    mgs-request at autox.team.net
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>    mgs-owner at autox.team.net
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Mgs digest..."
> 
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> 
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. mga drain plugs (dave)
>   2. Re: mga drain plugs (Barney Gaylord)
>   3. Re: mga drain plugs (Barney Gaylord)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:36:38 -0500
> From: "dave" <dave at ranteer.com>
> To: <mgs at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
> Message-ID: <000001d5ffb8$0ab24be0$2016e3a0$@ranteer.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> The mga and mgb transmission and oil drain plug ? I?m wanting to get
> magnetic ones to catch shavings, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> They are ?? npt?
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200321/930b5d61/attachment-0001.htm>
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:35:31 -0400
> From: Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com>
> To: dave <dave at ranteer.com>,<mgs at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
> Message-ID: <mailman.5.1584900001.16378.mgs at autox.team.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
> 
> Gearbox and differential have NPT plugs (tapered 
> pipe threads).  Engines have BSPS drain plug 
> (British Standard Pipe Straight thread), and that one needs a sealing washer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 03:36 PM 3/21/2020, dave via Mgs wrote:
>> ....
>> The mga and mgb transmission and oil drain plug 
>> ? I?m wanting to get magnetic ones to catch shavings, etc.
>> 
>> They are ?? npt?
>> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 11:25:08 -0400
> From: Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com>
> To: dave <dave at ranteer.com>,<mgs at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
> Message-ID: <mailman.6.1584900001.16378.mgs at autox.team.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
> 
> Okay, here's the long version.
> 
> For the engine drain plug,
> 1/4-inch BSPP or G-1/4 (plus a sealing washer)
> see: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of108.htm
> and http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/cooling/cool_201.htm
> 
> For gearbox drain, and differential fill and drain plugs,
> 1/2-14 NPT (plus thread sealing, recommend Tefon tape)
> http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/rearaxle/ra117.htm
> Original plugs had square female socket drive, 
> slightly tapered (forged), and could be two 
> different sizes.  The smaller one can be driven 
> direclty with a 3/8" drive socket wrench without 
> a socket or adapter.  The larger one needs a
> slightly larger tapered square male drive key 
> (which can easily be made from a 3/8" to 1/2" drive adapter).
> Hex female socket, square drive and hex drive 
> heads are also available, but, recommend a flush 
> socket drive plug for bottom of gearbox and differential.
> 
> 
> At 10:43 AM 3/22/2020, dave wrote:
>> What size are they?
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 9:36 AM
>> To: dave <dave at ranteer.com>; mgs at autox.team.net
>> Subject: Re: [Mgs] mga drain plugs
>> 
>> Gearbox and differential have NPT plugs (tapered pipe threads).  Engines
>> have BSPS drain plug (British Standard Pipe Straight thread),
>> or  BSPP (British Standard Pipe Parallel thread),
>> and that one needs a sealing washer.
> 
> 
>> At 03:36 PM 3/21/2020, dave via Mgs wrote:
>>> ....
>>> The mga and mgb transmission and oil drain plug ? I?m wanting to get
>>> magnetic ones to catch shavings, etc.
>>> 
>>> They are ?? npt?
>>> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mgs mailing list
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/mgs
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Mgs Digest, Vol 154, Issue 12
> ************************************


From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 06:54:59 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 07:54:59 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello friends,

   When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things. I am a geek and this
house-bound morning I woke up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the
details.

   We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a cylinder doesn't burn
instantly, despite our perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
finite length of time from the occurance of the 'spark', the flame front to
cross the combustion chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does the most work. But how
much time?
   Physics problems always start by listing the 'known' and the property to
'find'. So in this case,

KNOWN:
   Idle speed: 900rpm
   Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
   Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
   Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC

FIND:
   Time from spark to MEP

   The first thing one might know is that the goal at idle is not to
produce maximum power. In fact, at idle 100% of the available power is used
to overcome the friction and other forces that exist at idle speed. Stated
another way: Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve given the
available charge. That fact is evident (with carbureted engines) when one
notices that engine speed gradually increases, even for a fixed throttle
setting, as the engine warms and friction forces decrease. But back to the
problem.

   Because the goal at idle is smooth running and progression off of idle
(e.g. speeding up), not maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed may
not be correct at idle. But let's see.

   At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the XPAG engine is turning
900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps = 15rps (revolutions per second).

   Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle the distributor is
turning only 7.5 revolutions per second. But timing numbers are specified
in degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.

   We don't know how fast the flame front travels across the combustion
chamber but we do know that maximum work occurs when the piston is half way
down the cylinder. And we also know that work isn't an instantaneous
parameter so it must begin before the half way point and last past that
point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't always work in practice. But if
we use the average piston position at half-way down the bore, where most
work is most effective, and the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean
is average, calculations begin.

   A single revolution is 360? so half-way down the power stroke is 90?.
Add the idle spark timing of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at half-way down. That's 94/360 or
about 0.26 of an engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds) per revolution. So 67 x 0.26
= 17ms from spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.

   If we repeat the calculations for operating engine speed and at maximum
advance, we get 3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per second). Maximum
advance is 32? BTDC so 90? + 32? = 122?, spark to MEP or 122?/360? = 0.34
of a revolution

   58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from spark to MEP at half-way
down the power stroke. This is a more representative number than the 17ms
at idle. One might even divide the idle elapsed time minus the optimal time
across the strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle, the pressure at
idle becomes most effective 5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
after midpoint. Interesting that the idle pressure application time is
about the same as the maximum pressure application time, or is that
circular logic?

   Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions and perhaps even
apocryphal and resplendent with errors, but it is only 7am after all.

   Anyone with extra house-bound time on their hands, please check my maths
and share your corrections, including the logic of the whole
experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!

Rick
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/0a020a13/attachment.htm>

From paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com  Sat Mar 28 07:36:37 2020
From: paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com (PaulHunt73)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 13:36:37 -0000
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D45344EBB7CA4CD4865EB335732CAED6@paul>

"at idle 100% of the available power is used to overcome the friction and other forces that exist at idle speed"

Most of what the engine is doing at idle is as a vacuum pump, generating about 16 in Hg. or so in the intake manifold, and is why when you introduce an intake vacuum leak the idle speed goes up.  This may be included in your 'other forces' above.

Whist there may well be a most efficient point to start combustion and the flame front, the prime consideration has to be avoiding spontaneous combustion at any point, i.e. pinking or detonation.  As the flame front travels pressure inside the engine is rising, but after TDC the volume available is reducing, which tends to counteract the pressure increase.  There is also the effect of leverage i.e. the angle the con rod makes relative to the piston.

I'm certainly not going to check your maths, a specific engine is what it is, and the timing has to be set taking those specifics into account plus other factors like fuel grade and type.

PaulH.


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Richard Lindsay via Mgs 
  To: mgs at autox.team.net List 
  Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 12:54 PM
  Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time


  Hello friends,


     When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things. I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.


     We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a finite length of time from the occurance of the 'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does the most work. But how much time?
     Physics problems always start by listing the 'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,


  KNOWN:
     Idle speed: 900rpm
     Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
     Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
     Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC


  FIND:
     Time from spark to MEP


     The first thing one might know is that the goal at idle is not to produce maximum power. In fact, at idle 100% of the available power is used to overcome the friction and other forces that exist at idle speed. Stated another way: Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve given the available charge. That fact is evident (with carbureted engines) when one notices that engine speed gradually increases, even for a fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.


     Because the goal at idle is smooth running and progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed may not be correct at idle. But let's see.


     At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps = 15rps (revolutions per second).


     Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions per second. But timing numbers are specified in degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.


     We don't know how fast the flame front travels across the combustion chamber but we do know that maximum work occurs when the piston is half way down the cylinder. And we also know that work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must begin before the half way point and last past that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't always work in practice. But if we use the average piston position at half-way down the bore, where most work is most effective, and the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.


     A single revolution is 360? so half-way down the power stroke is 90?. Add the idle spark timing of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get 94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15 revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds) per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.


     If we repeat the calculations for operating engine speed and at maximum advance, we get 3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per second). Maximum advance is 32? BTDC so 90? + 32? = 122?, spark to MEP or 122?/360? = 0.34 of a revolution


     58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke. This is a more representative number than the 17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle elapsed time minus the optimal time across the strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle, the pressure at idle becomes most effective 5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms after midpoint. Interesting that the idle pressure application time is about the same as the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?


     Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with errors, but it is only 7am after all.


     Anyone with extra house-bound time on their hands, please check my maths and share your corrections, including the logic of the whole experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!


  Rick


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________

  Mgs at autox.team.net
  Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
  Suggested annual donation  $12.75

  Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

  Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/1452fa41/attachment.htm>

From barrob at bell.net  Sat Mar 28 08:02:33 2020
From: barrob at bell.net (Barrie Robinson)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:02:33 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dwiUvTmwLwJNPHPvsTEVSrw7J_6utAfYiFij11ArThbeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ed60e469-e81b-43ba-dd25-6e65d668d94c@bell.net>
 <CAOc+-dwiUvTmwLwJNPHPvsTEVSrw7J_6utAfYiFij11ArThbeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f231727f-d354-a5bc-2eb3-63ff8c326ee0@bell.net>

Hello Richard,

One must take into account the retrograde wave peak when reaching a 
maximum pressure in the cylinder.? Another consideration is the 
displacement of the primary components when the pressure wave is at its 
maximum value.? Using the Laws of Charles Breindigger then one has to 
assume that the MEP has peaked at top dead centre and thus decline 
occurs in burn speed but reduced in proportion to the ambient 
temperature of the incoming air.?? Failing considerable testing it must 
be assumed that the burn will reduce to zero when mechanical components 
phase into total inactivity.? But then this is just thinking off the top 
of my head.

Cheers - just a thought:-)
Barrie


On 3/28/2020 9:48 AM, Richard Lindsay wrote:
> Too fun Barrie! Thanks. The biggest unknown is dynamics of pressure 
> rise versus piston position.
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 8:38 AM Barrie Robinson <barrob at bell.net 
> <mailto:barrob at bell.net>> wrote:
>
>     Hello Richard,
>
>     My oath, I have just got out of bed - so pre-breakfast & coffee.??
>     I read your dissertation with bleary eyes and a befuddled brain
>     but I followed your augment but just down to the last
>     paragraphs.?? So decided that breakfast was more important than
>     erudite discussions - thus am going to put down my teddy bear and
>     discard my night cap and make breakfast with the help of this
>     chick who slept with me last night .
>
>     So cheers everyone and I look forward to academic messaging.
>
>     Barrie
>
>     On 3/28/2020 8:54 AM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>>     Hello friends,
>>
>>     ? ?When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things. I am a geek
>>     and this house-bound morning I woke up thinking about ignition
>>     timing. Here are the details.
>>
>>     ? ?We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a cylinder doesn't
>>     burn instantly, despite our perception to the contrary. Rather,
>>     it takes a finite length of time from the occurance of the
>>     'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion chamber, and to
>>     raise the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure) to a maximum - the point
>>     where it does the most work. But how much time?
>>     ? ?Physics problems always start by listing the 'known' and the
>>     property to 'find'. So in this case,
>>
>>     KNOWN:
>>     ? ?Idle speed: 900rpm
>>     ? ?Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
>>     ? ?Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
>>     ? ?Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC
>>
>>     FIND:
>>     ? ?Time from spark to MEP
>>
>>     ? ?The first thing one might know is that the goal at idle is not
>>     to produce maximum power. In fact, at idle 100% of the available
>>     power is used to overcome the friction and other forces that
>>     exist at idle speed. Stated another way: Idle speed is the
>>     fastest the engine can achieve given the available charge. That
>>     fact is evident (with carbureted engines) when one notices that
>>     engine speed gradually increases, even for a fixed throttle
>>     setting, as the engine warms and friction forces decrease. But
>>     back to the problem.
>>
>>     ? ?Because the goal at idle is smooth running and progression off
>>     of idle (e.g. speeding up), not maximum power, the calculated
>>     wavefront speed may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
>>
>>     ? ?At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the XPAG engine
>>     is turning 900rpm or?900rpm / 60mps = 15rps (revolutions per second).
>>
>>     ? ?Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle the
>>     distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions per second. But
>>     timing numbers are specified in degrees of crank rotations so we
>>     will stick with 15rps.
>>
>>     ? ?We don't know how fast the flame front travels across the
>>     combustion chamber but we do know that maximum work occurs when
>>     the piston is half way down the cylinder. And we also know that
>>     work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must begin before the
>>     half way point and last past that point. Lots of unknowns and
>>     theory doesn't always work in practice. But if we use the average
>>     piston position at half-way down the bore, where most work is
>>     most effective, and the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean
>>     is average, calculations begin.
>>
>>     ? ?A single revolution is 360? so half-way down the power stroke
>>     is 90?. Add the idle spark timing of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead
>>     Center) and we get 94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
>>     half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an engine
>>     revolution. And the engine is turning 15 revolutions per second
>>     or 67ms (milliseconds) per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from
>>     spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
>>
>>     ? ?If we repeat the calculations for operating engine speed and
>>     at maximum advance, we get?3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions
>>     per second). Maximum advance is 32? BTDC so?90? + 32? = 122?,
>>     spark to MEP or?122?/360? = 0.34 of a revolution
>>
>>     ? ?58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from spark to MEP
>>     at half-way down the power stroke. This is a more representative
>>     number than the 17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
>>     elapsed time minus the optimal time across the strike's midpoint.
>>     Doing so would mean at idle, the pressure at idle becomes most
>>     effective 5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms after
>>     midpoint. Interesting that the idle pressure application time is
>>     about the same as the maximum pressure application time, or is
>>     that circular logic?
>>
>>     ? ?Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions and perhaps even
>>     apocryphal and resplendent with errors, but it is only 7am after all.
>>
>>     ? ?Anyone with extra house-bound time on their hands, please
>>     check my maths and share your corrections, including the logic of
>>     the whole experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
>>
>>     Rick
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
>>     Mgs at autox.team.net  <mailto:Mgs at autox.team.net>
>>     Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>     Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>>     Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs  http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>>     Unsubscribe:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/ddf67872/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 08:17:45 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 09:17:45 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <D45344EBB7CA4CD4865EB335732CAED6@paul>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D45344EBB7CA4CD4865EB335732CAED6@paul>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dzRfXs9p3J_XFO5foXa==jPzqw9CuPXHjwebGQr8wP66w@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Paul. As you know, I have always appreciated your depth of
knowledge and experience. In fact, as you point out, there are SO many
variables. Theory just can't keep up with practice. The factory's tuning
recommendations for our beloved engines are almost certainly empirical.
That is, decided upon by trial and error.

And of course, tuning for maximum power is not the only maker's goal. Fuel
economy, emissions, build cost, and a plethora of other constraints
contribute.

Again, thank you Paul,  *et al.*, for indulging my house-bound mental
exercises.

Rick

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 8:54 AM PaulHunt73 <paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com> wrote:

> "at idle 100% of the available power is used to overcome the friction and
> other forces that exist at idle speed"
>
> Most of what the engine is doing at idle is as a vacuum pump, generating
> about 16 in Hg. or so in the intake manifold, and is why when you introduce
> an intake vacuum leak the idle speed goes up.  This may be included in your
> 'other forces' above.
>
> Whist there may well be a most efficient point to start combustion and the
> flame front, the prime consideration has to be avoiding
> spontaneous combustion at any point, i.e. pinking or detonation.  As the
> flame front travels pressure inside the engine is rising, but after TDC the
> volume available is reducing, which tends to counteract the pressure
> increase.  There is also the effect of leverage i.e. the angle the con rod
> makes relative to the piston.
>
> I'm certainly not going to check your maths, a specific engine is what it
> is, and the timing has to be set taking those specifics into account plus
> other factors like fuel grade and type.
>
> PaulH.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
> *To:* mgs at autox.team.net List
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 28, 2020 12:54 PM
> *Subject:* [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
>
> Hello friends,
>
>    When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things. I am a geek and this
> house-bound morning I woke up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the
> details.
>
>    We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a cylinder doesn't burn
> instantly, despite our perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
> finite length of time from the occurance of the 'spark', the flame front to
> cross the combustion chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
> Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does the most work. But how
> much time?
>    Physics problems always start by listing the 'known' and the property
> to 'find'. So in this case,
>
> KNOWN:
>    Idle speed: 900rpm
>    Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
>    Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
>    Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC
>
> FIND:
>    Time from spark to MEP
>
>    The first thing one might know is that the goal at idle is not to
> produce maximum power. In fact, at idle 100% of the available power is used
> to overcome the friction and other forces that exist at idle speed. Stated
> another way: Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve given the
> available charge. That fact is evident (with carbureted engines) when one
> notices that engine speed gradually increases, even for a fixed throttle
> setting, as the engine warms and friction forces decrease. But back to the
> problem.
>
>    Because the goal at idle is smooth running and progression off of idle
> (e.g. speeding up), not maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed may
> not be correct at idle. But let's see.
>
>    At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the XPAG engine is turning
> 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps = 15rps (revolutions per second).
>
>    Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle the distributor is
> turning only 7.5 revolutions per second. But timing numbers are specified
> in degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
>
>    We don't know how fast the flame front travels across the combustion
> chamber but we do know that maximum work occurs when the piston is half way
> down the cylinder. And we also know that work isn't an instantaneous
> parameter so it must begin before the half way point and last past that
> point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't always work in practice. But if
> we use the average piston position at half-way down the bore, where most
> work is most effective, and the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean
> is average, calculations begin.
>
>    A single revolution is 360? so half-way down the power stroke is 90?.
> Add the idle spark timing of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
> 94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at half-way down. That's 94/360 or
> about 0.26 of an engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
> revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds) per revolution. So 67 x 0.26
> = 17ms from spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
>
>    If we repeat the calculations for operating engine speed and at maximum
> advance, we get 3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per second). Maximum
> advance is 32? BTDC so 90? + 32? = 122?, spark to MEP or 122?/360? = 0.34
> of a revolution
>
>    58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from spark to MEP at
> half-way down the power stroke. This is a more representative number than
> the 17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle elapsed time minus the
> optimal time across the strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle, the
> pressure at idle becomes most effective 5.6ms before half-way and for
> another 5.6ms after midpoint. Interesting that the idle pressure
> application time is about the same as the maximum pressure application
> time, or is that circular logic?
>
>    Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions and perhaps even
> apocryphal and resplendent with errors, but it is only 7am after all.
>
>    Anyone with extra house-bound time on their hands, please check my
> maths and share your corrections, including the logic of the whole
> experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
>
> Rick
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/bd607fd8/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 08:23:30 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 09:23:30 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dzRfXs9p3J_XFO5foXa==jPzqw9CuPXHjwebGQr8wP66w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D45344EBB7CA4CD4865EB335732CAED6@paul>
 <CAOc+-dzRfXs9p3J_XFO5foXa==jPzqw9CuPXHjwebGQr8wP66w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dx8kfqZaZuy=3zQqpqu_tyF-yJjJrFokPSWAz2pRK9yfw@mail.gmail.com>

As I have said before, I don't drive much but I do enjoy understanding and
building engines. Anyone interested is said topic, especially LBC engines,
consider buying and ingesting this book.

https://www.amazon.com/sports-car-engine-tuning-modification/dp/0837600448/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+sports+car+engine+its&qid=1585403679&sr=8-1

Did I say 'consider'? I strongly recommend buying it. Complex, dynamic
engine processes explained in common language.

Rick

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:17 AM Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you Paul. As you know, I have always appreciated your depth of
> knowledge and experience. In fact, as you point out, there are SO many
> variables. Theory just can't keep up with practice. The factory's tuning
> recommendations for our beloved engines are almost certainly empirical.
> That is, decided upon by trial and error.
>
> And of course, tuning for maximum power is not the only maker's goal. Fuel
> economy, emissions, build cost, and a plethora of other constraints
> contribute.
>
> Again, thank you Paul,  *et al.*, for indulging my house-bound mental
> exercises.
>
> Rick
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 8:54 AM PaulHunt73 <paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "at idle 100% of the available power is used to overcome the friction
>> and other forces that exist at idle speed"
>>
>> Most of what the engine is doing at idle is as a vacuum pump, generating
>> about 16 in Hg. or so in the intake manifold, and is why when you introduce
>> an intake vacuum leak the idle speed goes up.  This may be included in your
>> 'other forces' above.
>>
>> Whist there may well be a most efficient point to start combustion and
>> the flame front, the prime consideration has to be avoiding
>> spontaneous combustion at any point, i.e. pinking or detonation.  As the
>> flame front travels pressure inside the engine is rising, but after TDC the
>> volume available is reducing, which tends to counteract the pressure
>> increase.  There is also the effect of leverage i.e. the angle the con rod
>> makes relative to the piston.
>>
>> I'm certainly not going to check your maths, a specific engine is what it
>> is, and the timing has to be set taking those specifics into account plus
>> other factors like fuel grade and type.
>>
>> PaulH.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Richard Lindsay via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
>> *To:* mgs at autox.team.net List
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 28, 2020 12:54 PM
>> *Subject:* [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
>>
>> Hello friends,
>>
>>    When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things. I am a geek and this
>> house-bound morning I woke up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the
>> details.
>>
>>    We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a cylinder doesn't burn
>> instantly, despite our perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
>> finite length of time from the occurance of the 'spark', the flame front to
>> cross the combustion chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
>> Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does the most work. But how
>> much time?
>>    Physics problems always start by listing the 'known' and the property
>> to 'find'. So in this case,
>>
>> KNOWN:
>>    Idle speed: 900rpm
>>    Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
>>    Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
>>    Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC
>>
>> FIND:
>>    Time from spark to MEP
>>
>>    The first thing one might know is that the goal at idle is not to
>> produce maximum power. In fact, at idle 100% of the available power is used
>> to overcome the friction and other forces that exist at idle speed. Stated
>> another way: Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve given the
>> available charge. That fact is evident (with carbureted engines) when one
>> notices that engine speed gradually increases, even for a fixed throttle
>> setting, as the engine warms and friction forces decrease. But back to the
>> problem.
>>
>>    Because the goal at idle is smooth running and progression off of idle
>> (e.g. speeding up), not maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed may
>> not be correct at idle. But let's see.
>>
>>    At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the XPAG engine is
>> turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps = 15rps (revolutions per second).
>>
>>    Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle the distributor is
>> turning only 7.5 revolutions per second. But timing numbers are specified
>> in degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
>>
>>    We don't know how fast the flame front travels across the combustion
>> chamber but we do know that maximum work occurs when the piston is half way
>> down the cylinder. And we also know that work isn't an instantaneous
>> parameter so it must begin before the half way point and last past that
>> point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't always work in practice. But if
>> we use the average piston position at half-way down the bore, where most
>> work is most effective, and the MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean
>> is average, calculations begin.
>>
>>    A single revolution is 360? so half-way down the power stroke is 90?.
>> Add the idle spark timing of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
>> 94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at half-way down. That's 94/360 or
>> about 0.26 of an engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
>> revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds) per revolution. So 67 x 0.26
>> = 17ms from spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
>>
>>    If we repeat the calculations for operating engine speed and at
>> maximum advance, we get 3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per second).
>> Maximum advance is 32? BTDC so 90? + 32? = 122?, spark to MEP or 122?/360?
>> = 0.34 of a revolution
>>
>>    58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from spark to MEP at
>> half-way down the power stroke. This is a more representative number than
>> the 17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle elapsed time minus the
>> optimal time across the strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle, the
>> pressure at idle becomes most effective 5.6ms before half-way and for
>> another 5.6ms after midpoint. Interesting that the idle pressure
>> application time is about the same as the maximum pressure application
>> time, or is that circular logic?
>>
>>    Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions and perhaps even
>> apocryphal and resplendent with errors, but it is only 7am after all.
>>
>>    Anyone with extra house-bound time on their hands, please check my
>> maths and share your corrections, including the logic of the whole
>> experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Mgs at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/paulhunt73 at virginmedia.com
>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/3de86c4c/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 10:57:02 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:57:02 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dzKK=MNafyctEFdHXR1k-UNgWdNbqJQVG8muxBK7T0QQw@mail.gmail.com>

Paul shared these sage words,

> Most of what the engine is doing at idle is as a vacuum pump,
> generating about 16 in Hg. or so in the intake manifold, and is
> why when you introduce an intake vacuum leak the idle speed
> goes up.  This may be included in your 'other forces' above.
>
> Whist there may well be a most efficient point to start combustion
> and the flame front, the prime consideration has to be avoiding
> spontaneous combustion at any point, i.e. pinking or detonation.
> As the flame front travels pressure inside the engine is rising,
> but after TDC the volume available is reducing, which tends to
> counteract the pressure increase.  There is also the effect of
> leverage i.e. the angle the con rod makes relative to the piston.
>
> I'm certainly not going to check your maths, a specific engine is
> what it is, and the timing has to be set taking those specifics
> into account plus other factors like fuel grade and type.
>
> PaulH.

   In a follow-on note I recommended Colin Campbell's landmark engine
manual for LBC owners, 'The Sports Car Engine: Its Tuning and
Modification'. Here's a page from that book addressing the combustion
process. All credit to Dr. Campbell.

http://aubard.us/53_MG/20200328_113435.jpg

   I feel that this discussion is of little interest to the average LBC
owner but its been quiet here and we all have delete keys, so hopefully,
minimum foul.

Rick
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/93af8ce8/attachment.htm>

From barneymg at mgaguru.com  Sat Mar 28 12:56:43 2020
From: barneymg at mgaguru.com (Barney Gaylord)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 14:56:43 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.62.1585422441.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.

You do a good job of calculating time from spark 
event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed), 
but I think you were asking a different 
question.  I thought you were asking how much 
time to complete combustion to get to maximum 
pressure.  That is, how much time for the flame 
front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?

And you also said. "we do know that maximum work 
occurs when the piston is half way down the 
cylinder", which is not true.  Most of the work 
has already been done before the piston gets half 
way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft 
happens significantly higher in the stroke before 
pressure is lost to expansion.

For best power and efficiency, combustion should 
be completed at or slightly after TDC.  But since 
there is very little motion of the piston 
immediately after TDC, It works just about as 
well if max pressure comes just a little later, 
like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.  That little delay can 
allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and efficiency.

I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it 
divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice 
round numbers.  And 900 rpm idle speed will be 
exactly 1/4 of road speed.  If you make spark at 
32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach 
TDC.  10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be 
3-ms (after spark).  So the flame front 
propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to 
3-ms range.  I suppose this is the answer to your 
question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the combustion chamber.

Distance from the spark plug to far side of the 
combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which 
it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed 
is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per 
second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.  And you 
night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.

Barney


At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
>Hello friends,
>
>When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things. 
>I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke 
>up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
>
>We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a 
>cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our 
>perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a 
>finite length of time from the occurance of the 
>'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion 
>chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective 
>Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does 
>the most work. But how much time?
>
>Physics problems always start by listing the 
>'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
>
>KNOWN:
>Idle speed: 900rpm
>Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
>Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
>Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC
>
>FIND:
>Time from spark to MEP
>
>The first thing one might know is that the goal 
>at idle is not to produce maximum power. In 
>fact, at idle 100% of the available power is 
>used to overcome the friction and other forces 
>that exist at idle speed. Stated another way: 
>Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve 
>given the available charge. That fact is evident 
>(with carbureted engines) when one notices that 
>engine speed gradually increases, even for a 
>fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and 
>friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
>
>Because the goal at idle is smooth running and 
>progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not 
>maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed 
>may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
>
>At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the 
>XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps 
>= 15rps (revolutions per second).
>
>Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle 
>the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions 
>per second. But timing numbers are specified in 
>degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
>
>We don't know how fast the flame front travels 
>across the combustion chamber but we do know 
>that maximum work occurs when the piston is half 
>way down the cylinder. And we also know that 
>work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must 
>begin before the half way point and last past 
>that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't 
>always work in practice. But if we use the 
>average piston position at half-way down the 
>bore, where most work is most effective, and the 
>MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.
>
>single revolution is 360? so half-way down the 
>power stroke is 90?. Add the idle spark timing 
>of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get 
>94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at 
>half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an 
>engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15 
>revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds) 
>per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark 
>to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
>
>If we repeat the calculations for operating 
>engine speed and at maximum advance, we get 
>3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per 
>second). Maximum advance is 32? BTDC so 90? + 
>32? = 122?, spark to MEP or 122?/360? = 0.34 of a revolution
>
>58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from 
>spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke. 
>This is a more representative number than the 
>17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle 
>elapsed time minus the optimal time across the 
>strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle, 
>the pressure at idle becomes most effective 
>5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms 
>after midpoint. Interesting that the idle 
>pressure application time is about the same as 
>the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?
>
>Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions 
>and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with 
>errors, but it is only 7am after all.
>
>Anyone with extra house-bound time on their 
>hands, please check my maths and share your 
>corrections, including the logic of the whole 
>experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
>
>Rick


From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 13:32:11 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 14:32:11 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dzbc+nTdKd2UjMVNFZ11GyCarujb0BGFxUhggGsiSggpg@mail.gmail.com>

...from Campbell's book.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:07 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com> wrote:

> Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.
>
> You do a good job of calculating time from spark
> event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed),
> but I think you were asking a different
> question.  I thought you were asking how much
> time to complete combustion to get to maximum
> pressure.  That is, how much time for the flame
> front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?
>
> And you also said. "we do know that maximum work
> occurs when the piston is half way down the
> cylinder", which is not true.  Most of the work
> has already been done before the piston gets half
> way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft
> happens significantly higher in the stroke before
> pressure is lost to expansion.
>
> For best power and efficiency, combustion should
> be completed at or slightly after TDC.  But since
> there is very little motion of the piston
> immediately after TDC, It works just about as
> well if max pressure comes just a little later,
> like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.  That little delay can
> allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and efficiency.
>
> I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it
> divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice
> round numbers.  And 900 rpm idle speed will be
> exactly 1/4 of road speed.  If you make spark at
> 32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach
> TDC.  10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be
> 3-ms (after spark).  So the flame front
> propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to
> 3-ms range.  I suppose this is the answer to your
> question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the combustion
> chamber.
>
> Distance from the spark plug to far side of the
> combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which
> it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed
> is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per
> second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.  And you
> night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.
>
> Barney
>
>
> At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
> >Hello friends,
> >
> >When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things.
> >I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke
> >up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
> >
> >We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a
> >cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our
> >perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
> >finite length of time from the occurance of the
> >'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion
> >chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
> >Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does
> >the most work. But how much time?
> >
> >Physics problems always start by listing the
> >'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
> >
> >KNOWN:
> >Idle speed: 900rpm
> >Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
> >Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
> >Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC
> >
> >FIND:
> >Time from spark to MEP
> >
> >The first thing one might know is that the goal
> >at idle is not to produce maximum power. In
> >fact, at idle 100% of the available power is
> >used to overcome the friction and other forces
> >that exist at idle speed. Stated another way:
> >Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve
> >given the available charge. That fact is evident
> >(with carbureted engines) when one notices that
> >engine speed gradually increases, even for a
> >fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and
> >friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
> >
> >Because the goal at idle is smooth running and
> >progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not
> >maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed
> >may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
> >
> >At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the
> >XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps
> >= 15rps (revolutions per second).
> >
> >Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle
> >the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions
> >per second. But timing numbers are specified in
> >degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
> >
> >We don't know how fast the flame front travels
> >across the combustion chamber but we do know
> >that maximum work occurs when the piston is half
> >way down the cylinder. And we also know that
> >work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must
> >begin before the half way point and last past
> >that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't
> >always work in practice. But if we use the
> >average piston position at half-way down the
> >bore, where most work is most effective, and the
> >MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.
> >
> >single revolution is 360? so half-way down the
> >power stroke is 90?. Add the idle spark timing
> >of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
> >94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
> >half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an
> >engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
> >revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds)
> >per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark
> >to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
> >
> >If we repeat the calculations for operating
> >engine speed and at maximum advance, we get
> >3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per
> >second). Maximum advance is 32? BTDC so 90? +
> >32? = 122?, spark to MEP or 122?/360? = 0.34 of a revolution
> >
> >58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from
> >spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke.
> >This is a more representative number than the
> >17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
> >elapsed time minus the optimal time across the
> >strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle,
> >the pressure at idle becomes most effective
> >5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
> >after midpoint. Interesting that the idle
> >pressure application time is about the same as
> >the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?
> >
> >Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions
> >and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with
> >errors, but it is only 7am after all.
> >
> >Anyone with extra house-bound time on their
> >hands, please check my maths and share your
> >corrections, including the logic of the whole
> >experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
> >
> >Rick
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/4f4b1734/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 20200328_113435.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1001995 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/4f4b1734/attachment.jpg>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 13:43:09 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 14:43:09 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dymo_bmubfAa9-=1EY97HFEjhwiJgsPVuzEBwa8M-bt_w@mail.gmail.com>

Barney, I appreciate your words and critique. Same with PaulH's words. We
are such techno-motor-heads!

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 2:07 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com> wrote:

> Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.
>
> You do a good job of calculating time from spark
> event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed),
> but I think you were asking a different
> question.  I thought you were asking how much
> time to complete combustion to get to maximum
> pressure.  That is, how much time for the flame
> front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?
>
> And you also said. "we do know that maximum work
> occurs when the piston is half way down the
> cylinder", which is not true.  Most of the work
> has already been done before the piston gets half
> way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft
> happens significantly higher in the stroke before
> pressure is lost to expansion.
>
> For best power and efficiency, combustion should
> be completed at or slightly after TDC.  But since
> there is very little motion of the piston
> immediately after TDC, It works just about as
> well if max pressure comes just a little later,
> like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.  That little delay can
> allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and efficiency.
>
> I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it
> divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice
> round numbers.  And 900 rpm idle speed will be
> exactly 1/4 of road speed.  If you make spark at
> 32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach
> TDC.  10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be
> 3-ms (after spark).  So the flame front
> propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to
> 3-ms range.  I suppose this is the answer to your
> question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the combustion
> chamber.
>
> Distance from the spark plug to far side of the
> combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which
> it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed
> is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per
> second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.  And you
> night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.
>
> Barney
>
>
> At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
> >Hello friends,
> >
> >When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things.
> >I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke
> >up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
> >
> >We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a
> >cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our
> >perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
> >finite length of time from the occurance of the
> >'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion
> >chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
> >Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does
> >the most work. But how much time?
> >
> >Physics problems always start by listing the
> >'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
> >
> >KNOWN:
> >Idle speed: 900rpm
> >Idle timing advance: 4? BTDC
> >Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
> >Maximum timing advance: 32? BTDC
> >
> >FIND:
> >Time from spark to MEP
> >
> >The first thing one might know is that the goal
> >at idle is not to produce maximum power. In
> >fact, at idle 100% of the available power is
> >used to overcome the friction and other forces
> >that exist at idle speed. Stated another way:
> >Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve
> >given the available charge. That fact is evident
> >(with carbureted engines) when one notices that
> >engine speed gradually increases, even for a
> >fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and
> >friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
> >
> >Because the goal at idle is smooth running and
> >progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not
> >maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed
> >may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
> >
> >At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the
> >XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps
> >= 15rps (revolutions per second).
> >
> >Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle
> >the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions
> >per second. But timing numbers are specified in
> >degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
> >
> >We don't know how fast the flame front travels
> >across the combustion chamber but we do know
> >that maximum work occurs when the piston is half
> >way down the cylinder. And we also know that
> >work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must
> >begin before the half way point and last past
> >that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't
> >always work in practice. But if we use the
> >average piston position at half-way down the
> >bore, where most work is most effective, and the
> >MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.
> >
> >single revolution is 360? so half-way down the
> >power stroke is 90?. Add the idle spark timing
> >of 4? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
> >94? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
> >half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an
> >engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
> >revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds)
> >per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark
> >to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
> >
> >If we repeat the calculations for operating
> >engine speed and at maximum advance, we get
> >3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per
> >second). Maximum advance is 32? BTDC so 90? +
> >32? = 122?, spark to MEP or 122?/360? = 0.34 of a revolution
> >
> >58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from
> >spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke.
> >This is a more representative number than the
> >17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
> >elapsed time minus the optimal time across the
> >strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle,
> >the pressure at idle becomes most effective
> >5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
> >after midpoint. Interesting that the idle
> >pressure application time is about the same as
> >the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?
> >
> >Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions
> >and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with
> >errors, but it is only 7am after all.
> >
> >Anyone with extra house-bound time on their
> >hands, please check my maths and share your
> >corrections, including the logic of the whole
> >experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
> >
> >Rick
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/875b2c2c/attachment.htm>

From barneymg at mgaguru.com  Sat Mar 28 17:14:07 2020
From: barneymg at mgaguru.com (Barney Gaylord)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 19:14:07 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dzbc+nTdKd2UjMVNFZ11GyCarujb0BGFxUhggGsiSggpg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dzbc+nTdKd2UjMVNFZ11GyCarujb0BGFxUhggGsiSggpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.63.1585437315.2961.mgs@autox.team.net>

I like the chart.  Pressure peaks at 12d ATDC, and by 90d ATDC it is 90% gone.

If you multiply sine of the angle by the pressure 
all alog the curve (after TDC), you get another 
curve representing progression of torque.  Not a 
lot of torque yet at 10d, pretty good torque by 
20d, peaking around 30d ATDC.  Still a fair 
amount of torque at 60d, but by 90d (half stroke) 
the torque is nearly gone along with the pressure.

Work being done would be represented by the area 
under the torque curve (not on the chart).  Since 
both pressure and torque are nearly exhausted by 
90d ATDC, there is very little energy (work) left 
to be harvested after mid stroke.  That's why we 
like to open the exhaust valve early, to let what 
remains of the mostly useless fumes out of the 
cylinder, encouraging best intake of fresh air and fuel mix half a turn later.

Barney


At 03:32 PM 3/28/2020, Richard Lindsay wrote:
>...from Campbell's book.
>....
>Attachment: 20200328_113435.jpg


>On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:07 PM Barney Gaylord 
><<mailto:barneymg at mgaguru.com>barneymg at mgaguru.com> wrote:
>Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.
>
>You do a good job of calculating time from spark
>event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed),
>but I think you were asking a different
>question.?  I thought you were asking how much
>time to complete combustion to get to maximum
>pressure.?  That is, how much time for the flame
>front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?
>
>And you also said. "we do know that maximum work
>occurs when the piston is half way down the
>cylinder", which is not true.?  Most of the work
>has already been done before the piston gets half
>way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft
>happens significantly higher in the stroke before
>pressure is lost to expansion.
>
>For best power and efficiency, combustion should
>be completed at or slightly after TDC.?  But since
>there is very little motion of the piston
>immediately after TDC, It works just about as
>well if max pressure comes just a little later,
>like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.?  That little delay can
>allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and efficiency.
>
>I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it
>divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice
>round numbers.?  And 900 rpm idle speed will be
>exactly 1/4 of road speed.?  If you make spark at
>32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach
>TDC.?  10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be
>3-ms (after spark).?  So the flame front
>propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to
>3-ms range.?  I suppose this is the answer to your
>question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the combustion chamber.
>
>Distance from the spark plug to far side of the
>combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which
>it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed
>is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per
>second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.?  And you
>night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.
>
>Barney


>At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
> >Hello friends,
> >
> >When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things.
> >I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke
> >up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
> >
> >We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a
> >cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our
> >perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
> >finite length of time from the occurance of the
> >'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion
> >chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
> >Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does
> >the most work. But how much time?
> >
> >Physics problems always start by listing the
> >'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
> >
> >KNOWN:
> >Idle speed: 900rpm
> >Idle timing advance: 4?? BTDC
> >Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
> >Maximum timing advance: 32?? BTDC
> >
> >FIND:
> >Time from spark to MEP
> >
> >The first thing one might know is that the goal
> >at idle is not to produce maximum power. In
> >fact, at idle 100% of the available power is
> >used to overcome the friction and other forces
> >that exist at idle speed. Stated another way:
> >Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve
> >given the available charge. That fact is evident
> >(with carbureted engines) when one notices that
> >engine speed gradually increases, even for a
> >fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and
> >friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
> >
> >Because the goal at idle is smooth running and
> >progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not
> >maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed
> >may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
> >
> >At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the
> >XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps
> >= 15rps (revolutions per second).
> >
> >Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle
> >the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions
> >per second. But timing numbers are specified in
> >degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
> >
> >We don't know how fast the flame front travels
> >across the combustion chamber but we do know
> >that maximum work occurs when the piston is half
> >way down the cylinder. And we also know that
> >work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must
> >begin before the half way point and last past
> >that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't
> >always work in practice. But if we use the
> >average piston position at half-way down the
> >bore, where most work is most effective, and the
> >MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.
> >
> >single revolution is 360?? so half-way down the
> >power stroke is 90??. Add the idle spark timing
> >of 4?? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
> >94?? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
> >half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an
> >engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
> >revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds)
> >per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark
> >to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
> >
> >If we repeat the calculations for operating
> >engine speed and at maximum advance, we get
> >3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per
> >second). Maximum advance is 32?? BTDC so 90?? +
> >32?? = 122??, spark to MEP or 122??/360?? = 0.34 of a revolution
> >
> >58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from
> >spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke.
> >This is a more representative number than the
> >17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
> >elapsed time minus the optimal time across the
> >strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle,
> >the pressure at idle becomes most effective
> >5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
> >after midpoint. Interesting that the idle
> >pressure application time is about the same as
> >the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?
> >
> >Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions
> >and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with
> >errors, but it is only 7am after all.
> >
> >Anyone with extra house-bound time on their
> >hands, please check my maths and share your
> >corrections, including the logic of the whole
> >experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
> >
> >Rick
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/168260b8/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 17:30:31 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:30:31 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <5e7fda81.1c69fb81.1335e.c33bSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dzbc+nTdKd2UjMVNFZ11GyCarujb0BGFxUhggGsiSggpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fda81.1c69fb81.1335e.c33bSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dwQ9TcmtuE3v9j+qBhCTjmFVkOQE0Tpi1SUGX5ZgNpAaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Excellent. Thank you.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:15 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com> wrote:

> I like the chart.  Pressure peaks at 12d ATDC, and by 90d ATDC it is 90%
> gone.
>
> If you multiply sine of the angle by the pressure all alog the curve
> (after TDC), you get another curve representing progression of torque.  Not
> a lot of torque yet at 10d, pretty good torque by 20d, peaking around 30d
> ATDC.  Still a fair amount of torque at 60d, but by 90d (half stroke) the
> torque is nearly gone along with the pressure.
>
> Work being done would be represented by the area under the torque curve
> (not on the chart).  Since both pressure and torque are nearly exhausted by
> 90d ATDC, there is very little energy (work) left to be harvested after mid
> stroke.  That's why we like to open the exhaust valve early, to let what
> remains of the mostly useless fumes out of the cylinder, encouraging best
> intake of fresh air and fuel mix half a turn later.
>
> Barney
>
>
> At 03:32 PM 3/28/2020, Richard Lindsay wrote:
>
> ...from Campbell's book.
> ....
> Attachment: 20200328_113435.jpg
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:07 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com> wrote:
> Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.
>
> You do a good job of calculating time from spark
> event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed),
> but I think you were asking a different
> question.?  I thought you were asking how much
> time to complete combustion to get to maximum
> pressure.?  That is, how much time for the flame
> front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?
>
> And you also said. "we do know that maximum work
> occurs when the piston is half way down the
> cylinder", which is not true.?  Most of the work
> has already been done before the piston gets half
> way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft
> happens significantly higher in the stroke before
> pressure is lost to expansion.
>
> For best power and efficiency, combustion should
> be completed at or slightly after TDC.?  But since
> there is very little motion of the piston
> immediately after TDC, It works just about as
> well if max pressure comes just a little later,
> like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.?  That little delay can
> allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and efficiency.
>
> I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it
> divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice
> round numbers.?  And 900 rpm idle speed will be
> exactly 1/4 of road speed.?  If you make spark at
> 32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach
> TDC.?  10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be
> 3-ms (after spark).?  So the flame front
> propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to
> 3-ms range.?  I suppose this is the answer to your
> question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the combustion
> chamber.
>
> Distance from the spark plug to far side of the
> combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which
> it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed
> is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per
> second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.?  And you
> night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.
>
> Barney
>
>
>
> At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
> >Hello friends,
> >
> >When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things.
> >I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke
> >up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
> >
> >We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a
> >cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our
> >perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
> >finite length of time from the occurance of the
> >'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion
> >chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
> >Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does
> >the most work. But how much time?
> >
> >Physics problems always start by listing the
> >'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
> >
> >KNOWN:
> >Idle speed: 900rpm
> >Idle timing advance: 4?? BTDC
> >Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
> >Maximum timing advance: 32?? BTDC
> >
> >FIND:
> >Time from spark to MEP
> >
> >The first thing one might know is that the goal
> >at idle is not to produce maximum power. In
> >fact, at idle 100% of the available power is
> >used to overcome the friction and other forces
> >that exist at idle speed. Stated another way:
> >Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve
> >given the available charge. That fact is evident
> >(with carbureted engines) when one notices that
> >engine speed gradually increases, even for a
> >fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and
> >friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
> >
> >Because the goal at idle is smooth running and
> >progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not
> >maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed
> >may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
> >
> >At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the
> >XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps
> >= 15rps (revolutions per second).
> >
> >Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle
> >the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions
> >per second. But timing numbers are specified in
> >degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
> >
> >We don't know how fast the flame front travels
> >across the combustion chamber but we do know
> >that maximum work occurs when the piston is half
> >way down the cylinder. And we also know that
> >work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must
> >begin before the half way point and last past
> >that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't
> >always work in practice. But if we use the
> >average piston position at half-way down the
> >bore, where most work is most effective, and the
> >MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.
> >
> >single revolution is 360?? so half-way down the
> >power stroke is 90??. Add the idle spark timing
> >of 4?? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
> >94?? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
> >half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an
> >engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
> >revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds)
> >per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark
> >to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
> >
> >If we repeat the calculations for operating
> >engine speed and at maximum advance, we get
> >3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per
> >second). Maximum advance is 32?? BTDC so 90?? +
> >32?? = 122??, spark to MEP or 122??/360?? = 0.34 of a revolution
> >
> >58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from
> >spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke.
> >This is a more representative number than the
> >17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
> >elapsed time minus the optimal time across the
> >strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle,
> >the pressure at idle becomes most effective
> >5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
> >after midpoint. Interesting that the idle
> >pressure application time is about the same as
> >the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?
> >
> >Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions
> >and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with
> >errors, but it is only 7am after all.
> >
> >Anyone with extra house-bound time on their
> >hands, please check my maths and share your
> >corrections, including the logic of the whole
> >experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
> >
> >Rick
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200328/79035965/attachment.htm>

From barrob at bell.net  Sun Mar 29 09:21:34 2020
From: barrob at bell.net (Barrie Robinson)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:21:34 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <CAOc+-dwQ9TcmtuE3v9j+qBhCTjmFVkOQE0Tpi1SUGX5ZgNpAaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dzbc+nTdKd2UjMVNFZ11GyCarujb0BGFxUhggGsiSggpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fda81.1c69fb81.1335e.c33bSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dwQ9TcmtuE3v9j+qBhCTjmFVkOQE0Tpi1SUGX5ZgNpAaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ab8e7a26-e0e3-ff8c-77c7-95f8a6f0f6f5@bell.net>

Hello folks,

I am really surprised that no one has blasted me for sending out a 
message that was all (deliberately) gobbledygook. ? ? I had at least 
expected an enquiry as to who Charles Breindigger was.

Cheers
Barrie


On 3/28/2020 7:30 PM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
> Excellent. Thank you.
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:15 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com 
> <mailto:barneymg at mgaguru.com>> wrote:
>
>     I like the chart.? Pressure peaks at 12d ATDC, and by 90d ATDC it
>     is 90% gone.
>
>     If you multiply sine of the angle by the pressure all alog the
>     curve (after TDC), you get another curve representing progression
>     of torque.? Not a lot of torque yet at 10d, pretty good torque by
>     20d, peaking around 30d ATDC.? Still a fair amount of torque at
>     60d, but by 90d (half stroke) the torque is nearly gone along with
>     the pressure.
>
>     Work being done would be represented by the area under the torque
>     curve (not on the chart).? Since both pressure and torque are
>     nearly exhausted by 90d ATDC, there is very little energy (work)
>     left to be harvested after mid stroke. That's why we like to open
>     the exhaust valve early, to let what remains of the mostly useless
>     fumes out of the cylinder, encouraging best intake of fresh air
>     and fuel mix half a turn later.
>
>     Barney
>
>
>     At 03:32 PM 3/28/2020, Richard Lindsay wrote:
>>     ...from Campbell's book.
>>     ....
>>     Attachment: 20200328_113435.jpg
>
>
>>     On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:07 PM Barney Gaylord
>>     <barneymg at mgaguru.com <mailto:barneymg at mgaguru.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.
>>
>>         You do a good job of calculating time from spark
>>         event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed),
>>         but I think you were asking a different
>>         question.?? I thought you were asking how much
>>         time to complete combustion to get to maximum
>>         pressure.?? That is, how much time for the flame
>>         front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?
>>
>>         And you also said. "we do know that maximum work
>>         occurs when the piston is half way down the
>>         cylinder", which is not true.?? Most of the work
>>         has already been done before the piston gets half
>>         way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft
>>         happens significantly higher in the stroke before
>>         pressure is lost to expansion.
>>
>>         For best power and efficiency, combustion should
>>         be completed at or slightly after TDC.?? But since
>>         there is very little motion of the piston
>>         immediately after TDC, It works just about as
>>         well if max pressure comes just a little later,
>>         like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.?? That little delay can
>>         allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and
>>         efficiency.
>>
>>         I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it
>>         divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice
>>         round numbers.?? And 900 rpm idle speed will be
>>         exactly 1/4 of road speed.?? If you make spark at
>>         32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach
>>         TDC.?? 10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be
>>         3-ms (after spark).?? So the flame front
>>         propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to
>>         3-ms range.?? I suppose this is the answer to your
>>         question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the
>>         combustion chamber.
>>
>>         Distance from the spark plug to far side of the
>>         combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which
>>         it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed
>>         is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per
>>         second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.?? And you
>>         night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.
>>
>>         Barney
>>
>
>
>>         At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
>>         >Hello friends,
>>         >
>>         >When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things.
>>         >I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke
>>         >up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
>>         >
>>         >We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a
>>         >cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our
>>         >perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
>>         >finite length of time from the occurance of the
>>         >'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion
>>         >chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
>>         >Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does
>>         >the most work. But how much time?
>>         >
>>         >Physics problems always start by listing the
>>         >'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
>>         >
>>         >KNOWN:
>>         >Idle speed: 900rpm
>>         >Idle timing advance: 4?? BTDC
>>         >Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
>>         >Maximum timing advance: 32?? BTDC
>>         >
>>         >FIND:
>>         >Time from spark to MEP
>>         >
>>         >The first thing one might know is that the goal
>>         >at idle is not to produce maximum power. In
>>         >fact, at idle 100% of the available power is
>>         >used to overcome the friction and other forces
>>         >that exist at idle speed. Stated another way:
>>         >Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve
>>         >given the available charge. That fact is evident
>>         >(with carbureted engines) when one notices that
>>         >engine speed gradually increases, even for a
>>         >fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and
>>         >friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
>>         >
>>         >Because the goal at idle is smooth running and
>>         >progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not
>>         >maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed
>>         >may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
>>         >
>>         >At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the
>>         >XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps
>>         >= 15rps (revolutions per second).
>>         >
>>         >Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle
>>         >the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions
>>         >per second. But timing numbers are specified in
>>         >degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
>>         >
>>         >We don't know how fast the flame front travels
>>         >across the combustion chamber but we do know
>>         >that maximum work occurs when the piston is half
>>         >way down the cylinder. And we also know that
>>         >work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must
>>         >begin before the half way point and last past
>>         >that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't
>>         >always work in practice. But if we use the
>>         >average piston position at half-way down the
>>         >bore, where most work is most effective, and the
>>         >MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average,
>>         calculations begin.
>>         >
>>         >single revolution is 360?? so half-way down the
>>         >power stroke is 90??. Add the idle spark timing
>>         >of 4?? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
>>         >94?? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
>>         >half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an
>>         >engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
>>         >revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds)
>>         >per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark
>>         >to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
>>         >
>>         >If we repeat the calculations for operating
>>         >engine speed and at maximum advance, we get
>>         >3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per
>>         >second). Maximum advance is 32?? BTDC so 90?? +
>>         >32?? = 122??, spark to MEP or 122??/360?? = 0.34 of a revolution
>>         >
>>         >58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from
>>         >spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke.
>>         >This is a more representative number than the
>>         >17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
>>         >elapsed time minus the optimal time across the
>>         >strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle,
>>         >the pressure at idle becomes most effective
>>         >5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
>>         >after midpoint. Interesting that the idle
>>         >pressure application time is about the same as
>>         >the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular
>>         logic?
>>         >
>>         >Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions
>>         >and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with
>>         >errors, but it is only 7am after all.
>>         >
>>         >Anyone with extra house-bound time on their
>>         >hands, please check my maths and share your
>>         >corrections, including the logic of the whole
>>         >experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
>>         >
>>         >Rick 
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs  http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200329/d9c8a779/attachment.htm>

From dan.dibiase at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 09:38:18 2020
From: dan.dibiase at gmail.com (Dan DiBiase)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:38:18 -0400
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <ab8e7a26-e0e3-ff8c-77c7-95f8a6f0f6f5@bell.net>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dzbc+nTdKd2UjMVNFZ11GyCarujb0BGFxUhggGsiSggpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fda81.1c69fb81.1335e.c33bSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dwQ9TcmtuE3v9j+qBhCTjmFVkOQE0Tpi1SUGX5ZgNpAaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ab8e7a26-e0e3-ff8c-77c7-95f8a6f0f6f5@bell.net>
Message-ID: <CABxEc+k6zEBCq10YaJ6MPD_6k7W4EieyYohAQ0Y_FUWq==-GBg@mail.gmail.com>

It's all Greek to me anyway, so I just put it in the same category as the
others writings.... ;-)

Dan D
'76B '65B
Central NJ USA
http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 11:21 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I am really surprised that no one has blasted me for sending out a message
> that was all (deliberately) gobbledygook.     I had at least expected an
> enquiry as to who Charles Breindigger was.
>
> Cheers
> Barrie
>
>
> On 3/28/2020 7:30 PM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>
> Excellent. Thank you.
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:15 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com> wrote:
>
>> I like the chart.  Pressure peaks at 12d ATDC, and by 90d ATDC it is 90%
>> gone.
>>
>> If you multiply sine of the angle by the pressure all alog the curve
>> (after TDC), you get another curve representing progression of torque.  Not
>> a lot of torque yet at 10d, pretty good torque by 20d, peaking around 30d
>> ATDC.  Still a fair amount of torque at 60d, but by 90d (half stroke) the
>> torque is nearly gone along with the pressure.
>>
>> Work being done would be represented by the area under the torque curve
>> (not on the chart).  Since both pressure and torque are nearly exhausted by
>> 90d ATDC, there is very little energy (work) left to be harvested after mid
>> stroke.  That's why we like to open the exhaust valve early, to let what
>> remains of the mostly useless fumes out of the cylinder, encouraging best
>> intake of fresh air and fuel mix half a turn later.
>>
>> Barney
>>
>>
>> At 03:32 PM 3/28/2020, Richard Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> ...from Campbell's book.
>> ....
>> Attachment: 20200328_113435.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:07 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com>
>> wrote:
>> Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.
>>
>> You do a good job of calculating time from spark
>> event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed),
>> but I think you were asking a different
>> question.?  I thought you were asking how much
>> time to complete combustion to get to maximum
>> pressure.?  That is, how much time for the flame
>> front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?
>>
>> And you also said. "we do know that maximum work
>> occurs when the piston is half way down the
>> cylinder", which is not true.?  Most of the work
>> has already been done before the piston gets half
>> way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft
>> happens significantly higher in the stroke before
>> pressure is lost to expansion.
>>
>> For best power and efficiency, combustion should
>> be completed at or slightly after TDC.?  But since
>> there is very little motion of the piston
>> immediately after TDC, It works just about as
>> well if max pressure comes just a little later,
>> like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.?  That little delay can
>> allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and efficiency.
>>
>> I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it
>> divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice
>> round numbers.?  And 900 rpm idle speed will be
>> exactly 1/4 of road speed.?  If you make spark at
>> 32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach
>> TDC.?  10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be
>> 3-ms (after spark).?  So the flame front
>> propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to
>> 3-ms range.?  I suppose this is the answer to your
>> question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the combustion
>> chamber.
>>
>> Distance from the spark plug to far side of the
>> combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which
>> it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed
>> is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per
>> second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.?  And you
>> night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.
>>
>> Barney
>>
>>
>>
>> At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
>> >Hello friends,
>> >
>> >When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things.
>> >I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke
>> >up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
>> >
>> >We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a
>> >cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our
>> >perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
>> >finite length of time from the occurance of the
>> >'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion
>> >chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
>> >Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does
>> >the most work. But how much time?
>> >
>> >Physics problems always start by listing the
>> >'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
>> >
>> >KNOWN:
>> >Idle speed: 900rpm
>> >Idle timing advance: 4?? BTDC
>> >Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
>> >Maximum timing advance: 32?? BTDC
>> >
>> >FIND:
>> >Time from spark to MEP
>> >
>> >The first thing one might know is that the goal
>> >at idle is not to produce maximum power. In
>> >fact, at idle 100% of the available power is
>> >used to overcome the friction and other forces
>> >that exist at idle speed. Stated another way:
>> >Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve
>> >given the available charge. That fact is evident
>> >(with carbureted engines) when one notices that
>> >engine speed gradually increases, even for a
>> >fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and
>> >friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
>> >
>> >Because the goal at idle is smooth running and
>> >progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not
>> >maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed
>> >may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
>> >
>> >At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the
>> >XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps
>> >= 15rps (revolutions per second).
>> >
>> >Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle
>> >the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions
>> >per second. But timing numbers are specified in
>> >degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
>> >
>> >We don't know how fast the flame front travels
>> >across the combustion chamber but we do know
>> >that maximum work occurs when the piston is half
>> >way down the cylinder. And we also know that
>> >work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must
>> >begin before the half way point and last past
>> >that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't
>> >always work in practice. But if we use the
>> >average piston position at half-way down the
>> >bore, where most work is most effective, and the
>> >MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.
>> >
>> >single revolution is 360?? so half-way down the
>> >power stroke is 90??. Add the idle spark timing
>> >of 4?? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
>> >94?? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
>> >half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an
>> >engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
>> >revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds)
>> >per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark
>> >to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
>> >
>> >If we repeat the calculations for operating
>> >engine speed and at maximum advance, we get
>> >3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per
>> >second). Maximum advance is 32?? BTDC so 90?? +
>> >32?? = 122??, spark to MEP or 122??/360?? = 0.34 of a revolution
>> >
>> >58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from
>> >spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke.
>> >This is a more representative number than the
>> >17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
>> >elapsed time minus the optimal time across the
>> >strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle,
>> >the pressure at idle becomes most effective
>> >5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
>> >after midpoint. Interesting that the idle
>> >pressure application time is about the same as
>> >the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?
>> >
>> >Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions
>> >and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with
>> >errors, but it is only 7am after all.
>> >
>> >Anyone with extra house-bound time on their
>> >hands, please check my maths and share your
>> >corrections, including the logic of the whole
>> >experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
>> >
>> >Rick
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200329/c214f54e/attachment.htm>

From richardolindsay at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 11:24:44 2020
From: richardolindsay at gmail.com (Richard Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 12:24:44 -0500
Subject: [Mgs] Engine maths...and spare time
In-Reply-To: <ab8e7a26-e0e3-ff8c-77c7-95f8a6f0f6f5@bell.net>
References: <CAOc+-dyyUjBTST_+G=UurmYec5HepQdd+7W+WhCDagQQci9Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fa067.1c69fb81.9579e.51d1SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dzbc+nTdKd2UjMVNFZ11GyCarujb0BGFxUhggGsiSggpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e7fda81.1c69fb81.1335e.c33bSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
 <CAOc+-dwQ9TcmtuE3v9j+qBhCTjmFVkOQE0Tpi1SUGX5ZgNpAaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ab8e7a26-e0e3-ff8c-77c7-95f8a6f0f6f5@bell.net>
Message-ID: <CAOc+-dzQHQzn96c92N+iTXGFQCAysJFBqPuE4ygYc0wUHiyvjQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am Mr. Gobbledygook while you and PaulH are DOCTOR Gobbledygook winners.
Thank you!

Some of us drive 'em. Some race 'em. Some just study 'em. And silly guys
like me restore then and try to understand them. Honestly, I don't drive
much.  :-o

rick

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 10:21 AM Barrie Robinson via Mgs <mgs at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I am really surprised that no one has blasted me for sending out a message
> that was all (deliberately) gobbledygook.     I had at least expected an
> enquiry as to who Charles Breindigger was.
>
> Cheers
> Barrie
>
>
> On 3/28/2020 7:30 PM, Richard Lindsay via Mgs wrote:
>
> Excellent. Thank you.
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:15 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com> wrote:
>
>> I like the chart.  Pressure peaks at 12d ATDC, and by 90d ATDC it is 90%
>> gone.
>>
>> If you multiply sine of the angle by the pressure all alog the curve
>> (after TDC), you get another curve representing progression of torque.  Not
>> a lot of torque yet at 10d, pretty good torque by 20d, peaking around 30d
>> ATDC.  Still a fair amount of torque at 60d, but by 90d (half stroke) the
>> torque is nearly gone along with the pressure.
>>
>> Work being done would be represented by the area under the torque curve
>> (not on the chart).  Since both pressure and torque are nearly exhausted by
>> 90d ATDC, there is very little energy (work) left to be harvested after mid
>> stroke.  That's why we like to open the exhaust valve early, to let what
>> remains of the mostly useless fumes out of the cylinder, encouraging best
>> intake of fresh air and fuel mix half a turn later.
>>
>> Barney
>>
>>
>> At 03:32 PM 3/28/2020, Richard Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> ...from Campbell's book.
>> ....
>> Attachment: 20200328_113435.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:07 PM Barney Gaylord <barneymg at mgaguru.com>
>> wrote:
>> Rick, ---- Okay, time to spare, so I'll bite.
>>
>> You do a good job of calculating time from spark
>> event to half stroke (about 6-ms at road speed),
>> but I think you were asking a different
>> question.?  I thought you were asking how much
>> time to complete combustion to get to maximum
>> pressure.?  That is, how much time for the flame
>> front to propagate all the way across the combustion chamber?
>>
>> And you also said. "we do know that maximum work
>> occurs when the piston is half way down the
>> cylinder", which is not true.?  Most of the work
>> has already been done before the piston gets half
>> way down, and maximum torque on the crankshaft
>> happens significantly higher in the stroke before
>> pressure is lost to expansion.
>>
>> For best power and efficiency, combustion should
>> be completed at or slightly after TDC.?  But since
>> there is very little motion of the piston
>> immediately after TDC, It works just about as
>> well if max pressure comes just a little later,
>> like maybe 10 to 20d ATDC.?  That little delay can
>> allow use of higher compression ratio for better power and efficiency.
>>
>> I like to use 3600 rpm for road speed, because it
>> divides evenly into 360 degrees rotation for nice
>> round numbers.?  And 900 rpm idle speed will be
>> exactly 1/4 of road speed.?  If you make spark at
>> 32d BTDC at road speed, it takes 1.5-ms to reach
>> TDC.?  10d ATDC is at 2-ms, and 30d ATDC would be
>> 3-ms (after spark).?  So the flame front
>> propagation to complete combustion is in the 2 to
>> 3-ms range.?  I suppose this is the answer to your
>> question, "how much time" for the flame front to cross the combustion
>> chamber.
>>
>> Distance from the spark plug to far side of the
>> combustion chamber is about 2-1/2 inches, which
>> it does in about 2-1/2 ms, so flame front speed
>> is about 1 inch per ms, or 1000 inches per
>> second, which is fairly close to 60-mph.?  And you
>> night notice that I did not use "MEP" in that entire discussion.
>>
>> Barney
>>
>>
>>
>> At 08:54 AM 3/28/2020, you wrote:
>> >Hello friends,
>> >
>> >When one is a geek, one thinks of geeky things.
>> >I am a geek and this house-bound morning I woke
>> >up thinking about ignition timing. Here are the details.
>> >
>> >We know that the charge (fuel plus air) in a
>> >cylinder doesn't burn instantly, despite our
>> >perception to the contrary. Rather, it takes a
>> >finite length of time from the occurance of the
>> >'spark', the flame front to cross the combustion
>> >chamber, and to raise the MEP (Mean Effective
>> >Pressure) to a maximum - the point where it does
>> >the most work. But how much time?
>> >
>> >Physics problems always start by listing the
>> >'known' and the property to 'find'. So in this case,
>> >
>> >KNOWN:
>> >Idle speed: 900rpm
>> >Idle timing advance: 4?? BTDC
>> >Speed at maximum advance: 3500rpm
>> >Maximum timing advance: 32?? BTDC
>> >
>> >FIND:
>> >Time from spark to MEP
>> >
>> >The first thing one might know is that the goal
>> >at idle is not to produce maximum power. In
>> >fact, at idle 100% of the available power is
>> >used to overcome the friction and other forces
>> >that exist at idle speed. Stated another way:
>> >Idle speed is the fastest the engine can achieve
>> >given the available charge. That fact is evident
>> >(with carbureted engines) when one notices that
>> >engine speed gradually increases, even for a
>> >fixed throttle setting, as the engine warms and
>> >friction forces decrease. But back to the problem.
>> >
>> >Because the goal at idle is smooth running and
>> >progression off of idle (e.g. speeding up), not
>> >maximum power, the calculated wavefront speed
>> >may not be correct at idle. But let's see.
>> >
>> >At idle speed, 900rpm in this MG TD example, the
>> >XPAG engine is turning 900rpm or 900rpm / 60mps
>> >= 15rps (revolutions per second).
>> >
>> >Distributor speed is 1/2 engine speed so at idle
>> >the distributor is turning only 7.5 revolutions
>> >per second. But timing numbers are specified in
>> >degrees of crank rotations so we will stick with 15rps.
>> >
>> >We don't know how fast the flame front travels
>> >across the combustion chamber but we do know
>> >that maximum work occurs when the piston is half
>> >way down the cylinder. And we also know that
>> >work isn't an instantaneous parameter so it must
>> >begin before the half way point and last past
>> >that point. Lots of unknowns and theory doesn't
>> >always work in practice. But if we use the
>> >average piston position at half-way down the
>> >bore, where most work is most effective, and the
>> >MEP (Mean Effective Pressure), since Mean is average, calculations begin.
>> >
>> >single revolution is 360?? so half-way down the
>> >power stroke is 90??. Add the idle spark timing
>> >of 4?? BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and we get
>> >94?? of crank rotation from spark to MEP at
>> >half-way down. That's 94/360 or about 0.26 of an
>> >engine revolution. And the engine is turning 15
>> >revolutions per second or 67ms (milliseconds)
>> >per revolution. So 67 x 0.26 = 17ms from spark
>> >to MEP at half-way down the power stroke, at idle.
>> >
>> >If we repeat the calculations for operating
>> >engine speed and at maximum advance, we get
>> >3500rpm / 60mps = 58rps (revolutions per
>> >second). Maximum advance is 32?? BTDC so 90?? +
>> >32?? = 122??, spark to MEP or 122??/360?? = 0.34 of a revolution
>> >
>> >58rps is 17ms/r so 17ms/r x 0.34r = 5.78ms from
>> >spark to MEP at half-way down the power stroke.
>> >This is a more representative number than the
>> >17ms at idle. One might even divide the idle
>> >elapsed time minus the optimal time across the
>> >strike's midpoint. Doing so would mean at idle,
>> >the pressure at idle becomes most effective
>> >5.6ms before half-way and for another 5.6ms
>> >after midpoint. Interesting that the idle
>> >pressure application time is about the same as
>> >the maximum pressure application time, or is that circular logic?
>> >
>> >Yes everything above is ripe with assumptions
>> >and perhaps even apocryphal and resplendent with
>> >errors, but it is only 7am after all.
>> >
>> >Anyone with extra house-bound time on their
>> >hands, please check my maths and share your
>> >corrections, including the logic of the whole
>> >experiment...or perhaps even why geeks think these ways!
>> >
>> >Rick
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/barrob at bell.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/mgs/attachments/20200329/58b07721/attachment.htm>