From paul.hunt1 at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Apr 1 02:32:30 2011 From: paul.hunt1 at blueyonder.co.uk (Paul Hunt) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 10:32:30 +0100 Subject: [Mgb-v8] [Mgs] Electrical question References: Message-ID: An internal short in the battery wouldn't have damaged the cable, except perhaps right by the battery. It would also be a huge coincidence if the battery chose the exact moment of making the connections to fail - albeit possible. I can't see a 'simple' reversal doing that either - it would cook the alternator and the smaller gauge wires feeding it, but I'd expect the current to be too low to cook the main earth cable which after all carries starter current without damage. Sounds to me like *both* battery terminals got connected to the chassis somehow. PaulH. ----- Original Message ----- > He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of smoke > and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and chassis was toast > (it may have been the starter - he is not too observant!). Someone said > it was because he reversed the polarity (hmmmm!) but the shop said the > battery plates had collapsed and shorted out. To me neither sounds > right. Anybody got an insightful suggestion From dkern at napanet.net Fri Apr 1 19:02:06 2011 From: dkern at napanet.net (David Kernberger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:02:06 -0700 Subject: [Mgb-v8] [Mgs] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, With all due respect, I do not believe it is possible for an internal battery short of any kind to damage any external cable in any way or in any place. A short simply causes the cell in which it occurs to become a useless conductor of current and prevents it from producing any useful power. The cell just goes dead. Aa far as the main earth cable is concerned, I do not think the fried cable (wire?) Barrie originally mentioned has yet been positively identified as to its function or size. Nor has anybody verified that the battery plates were actually collapsed. We are all just grasping at straws here. Fun though!! Regards, Dave K. ------------------------------------------------------------ >An internal short in the battery wouldn't have damaged the cable, >except perhaps right by the battery. It would also be a huge >coincidence if the battery chose the exact moment of making the >connections to fail - albeit possible. I can't see a 'simple' >reversal doing that either - it would cook the alternator and the >smaller gauge wires feeding it, but I'd expect the current to be too >low to cook the main earth cable which after all carries starter >current without damage. Sounds to me like *both* battery terminals >got connected to the chassis somehow. > >PaulH. > >----- Original Message ----- >>He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of >>smoke and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and >>chassis was toast (it may have been the starter - he is not too >>observant!). Someone said it was because he reversed the polarity >>(hmmmm!) but the shop said the battery plates had collapsed and >>shorted out. To me neither sounds right. Anybody got an >>insightful suggestion >_______________________________________________ > >Mgb-v8 at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $11.47 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgb-v8/dkern at napanet.net From dkern at napanet.net Fri Apr 1 19:06:39 2011 From: dkern at napanet.net (David Kernberger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:06:39 -0700 Subject: [Mgb-v8] [Mgs] Electrical question Message-ID: Paul, With all due respect, I do not believe it is possible for an internal battery short of any kind to damage any external cable in any way or in any place. A short simply causes the cell in which it occurs to become a useless conductor of current and prevents it from producing any useful power. The cell just goes dead. Aa far as the main earth cable is concerned, I do not think the fried cable (wire?) Barrie originally mentioned has yet been positively identified as to its function or size. Nor has anybody verified that the battery plates were actually collapsed. We are all just grasping at straws here. Fun though!! Regards, Dave K. ------------------------------------------------------------ >An internal short in the battery wouldn't have damaged the cable, >except perhaps right by the battery. It would also be a huge >coincidence if the battery chose the exact moment of making the >connections to fail - albeit possible. I can't see a 'simple' >reversal doing that either - it would cook the alternator and the >smaller gauge wires feeding it, but I'd expect the current to be too >low to cook the main earth cable which after all carries starter >current without damage. Sounds to me like *both* battery terminals >got connected to the chassis somehow. > >PaulH. > >----- Original Message ----- >>He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of >>smoke and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and >>chassis was toast (it may have been the starter - he is not too >>observant!). Someone said it was because he reversed the polarity >>(hmmmm!) but the shop said the battery plates had collapsed and >>shorted out. To me neither sounds right. Anybody got an >>insightful suggestion From dkern at napanet.net Fri Apr 1 19:07:22 2011 From: dkern at napanet.net (David Kernberger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:07:22 -0700 Subject: [Mgb-v8] Electrical question Message-ID: I agree with Keith---internal battery shorts of any kind would not fry any external wiring. Such shorts would just reduce the capacity of the battery---a shorted cell is a dead cell. However, such shorting could very well be the RESULT of an external short circuit, if it was bad enough and if it lasted long enough. Excessive current through a battery can buckle and damage plates to a degree consistent with the severity and duration of the problem. I do not know Saab wiring firsthand so am not qualified to comment on just what actually did happen. But I did notice Barrie talked about a ground wire from chassis to alternator and you (Keith) talk about a ground wire between block and alternator. I wonder which, if either, it actually is. Or if it is perhaps a heavy cable running to the starter from wherever. To fry and smoke a heavy cable could require several hundred amps of current and this could easily be enough to damage plates in a battery if it persisted for more than a few seconds. Just my 2 cents worth. Sorry I cannot be more specific. Regards, David Kernberger -------------------------------------------------------------------- >It may well have been put in reversed. The alternator on older saabs (c900) >is grounded to the block by a small 10GA wire. If you put the battery in >reversed, you may fry this short cable. A n internally shorted battery >should do nothing good or bad, I would think. > >KeithG > >On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Barrie Robinson wrote: > >> Hello folks at world, >> >> A sort of friend of mine found his battery was flat in his.......now wait >> for it......Saab! But this is an electrical question not a Saab/MG/Brit car >> question. >> >> He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of smoke >> and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and chassis was toast >> (it may have been the starter - he is not too observant!). Someone said it >> was because he reversed the polarity (hmmmm!) but the shop said the battery >> plates had collapsed and shorted out. To me neither sounds right. Anybody >> got an insightful suggestion >> >> Regards >> >> Barrie >> barrie at look.ca > > (705) 721-9060 From dkern at napanet.net Fri Apr 1 19:14:07 2011 From: dkern at napanet.net (David Kernberger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:14:07 -0700 Subject: [Mgb-v8] Electrical question Message-ID: I agree with Keith---internal battery shorts of any kind would not fry any external wiring. Such shorts would just reduce the capacity of the battery---a shorted cell is a dead cell. However, such shorting could very well be the RESULT of an external short circuit, if it was bad enough and if it lasted long enough. Excessive current through a battery can buckle and damage plates to a degree consistent with the severity and duration of the problem. I do not know Saab wiring firsthand so am not qualified to comment on just what actually did happen. But I did notice Barrie talked about a ground wire from chassis to alternator and you (Keith) talk about a ground wire between block and alternator. I wonder which, if either, it actually is. Or if it is perhaps a heavy cable running to the starter from wherever. To fry and smoke a heavy cable could require several hundred amps of current and this could easily be enough to damage plates in a battery if it persisted for more than a few seconds. Just my 2 cents worth. Sorry I cannot be more specific. Regards, David Kernberger -------------------------------------------------------------------- >It may well have been put in reversed. The alternator on older saabs (c900) >is grounded to the block by a small 10GA wire. If you put the battery in >reversed, you may fry this short cable. A n internally shorted battery >should do nothing good or bad, I would think. > >KeithG > >On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Barrie Robinson wrote: > >> Hello folks at world, >> >> A sort of friend of mine found his battery was flat in his.......now wait >> for it......Saab! But this is an electrical question not a Saab/MG/Brit car >> question. >> >> He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of smoke >> and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and chassis was toast >> (it may have been the starter - he is not too observant!). Someone said it >> was because he reversed the polarity (hmmmm!) but the shop said the battery >> plates had collapsed and shorted out. To me neither sounds right. Anybody >> got an insightful suggestion >> >> Regards >> >> Barrie >> barrie at look.ca > > (705) 721-9060 From dkern at napanet.net Fri Apr 1 20:09:20 2011 From: dkern at napanet.net (David Kernberger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 20:09:20 -0700 Subject: [Mgb-v8] [Mgs] Electrical question Message-ID: Paul, With all due respect, I do not believe it is possible for an internal battery short of any kind to damage any external cable in any way or in any place. A short simply causes the cell in which it occurs to become a useless conductor of current and prevents it from producing any useful power. The cell just goes dead. Aa far as the main earth cable is concerned, I do not think the fried cable (wire?) Barrie originally mentioned has yet been positively identified as to its function or size. Nor has anybody verified that the battery plates were actually collapsed. We are all just grasping at straws here. Fun though!! Regards, Dave K. ------------------------------------------------------------ >An internal short in the battery wouldn't have damaged the cable, >except perhaps right by the battery. It would also be a huge >coincidence if the battery chose the exact moment of making the >connections to fail - albeit possible. I can't see a 'simple' >reversal doing that either - it would cook the alternator and the >smaller gauge wires feeding it, but I'd expect the current to be too >low to cook the main earth cable which after all carries starter >current without damage. Sounds to me like *both* battery terminals >got connected to the chassis somehow. > >PaulH. > >----- Original Message ----- >>He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of >>smoke and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and >>chassis was toast (it may have been the starter - he is not too >>observant!). Someone said it was because he reversed the polarity >>(hmmmm!) but the shop said the battery plates had collapsed and >>shorted out. To me neither sounds right. Anybody got an >>insightful suggestion From paul.hunt1 at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Apr 4 02:36:04 2011 From: paul.hunt1 at blueyonder.co.uk (Paul Hunt) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 09:36:04 +0100 Subject: [Mgb-v8] [Mgs] Electrical question References: Message-ID: I did say 'except perhaps right by the battery'. Perhaps I should have added 'from heat generated inside the battery in the same way that too much heat applied to a solder tag will damage the insulation of the wire attached to it, metal in general and copper in particular being a good conductor of heat'. ----- Original Message ----- > With all due respect, I do not believe it is possible for an > internal battery short of any kind to damage any external cable in > any way or in any place. From barrie at look.ca Tue Apr 5 11:28:24 2011 From: barrie at look.ca (Barrie Robinson) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 13:28:24 -0400 Subject: [Mgb-v8] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My many thanks for your responses to my question on the Saab burn up. My buddy is now mulling over the numerous very informative replies. Incidental, if anyone is contemplating cleaning bits and pieces using a "rock" tumbler - give me a buzz, I have had great success using this method. At 04:46 PM 3/30/2011, Keith Grider wrote: >It may well have been put in reversed. The alternator on older saabs >(c900) is grounded to the block by a small 10GA wire. If you put the >battery in reversed, you may fry this short cable. A n internally >shorted battery should do nothing good or bad, I would think. > >KeithG > >On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Barrie Robinson ><barrie at look.ca> wrote: >Hello folks at world, > >A sort of friend of mine found his battery was flat in his.......now >wait for it......Saab! But this is an electrical question not a >Saab/MG/Brit car question. > >He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of >smoke and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and >chassis was toast (it may have been the starter - he is not too >observant!). Someone said it was because he reversed the polarity >(hmmmm!) but the shop said the battery plates had collapsed and >shorted out. To me neither sounds right. Anybody got an >insightful suggestion > >Regards > >Barrie >barrie at look.ca >(705) 721-9060 >_______________________________________________ > >Mgb-v8 at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $11.47 >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgb-v8/keith.grider at gmail.com > Regards Barrie barrie at look.ca 705--721-9060 From jaguarsandrail at hotmail.com Sat Apr 9 00:03:26 2011 From: jaguarsandrail at hotmail.com (James Bown) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 00:03:26 -0600 Subject: [Mgb-v8] Electrical question In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: A year or so ago I put the battery in backwards (reversed polarity) in a 215 Buick powered vehicle. What a mess that made. It has a battery disconnect switch, which was off. I accidently put the battery in backwards, tried to start it and nothing happened as the battery disconnect switch had been left turned off. So, with the ignition key still in the on position, I turned on the battery disconnect switch. Smoke, burned wiring, ruined alternator, melted ampmeter, etc. Took me quite sometime to rewire the thing. I have now gone to great lenghts to mark plus and minus in such a way that no idiot (meaning me) will ever put the battery in backwards again. Regards, J. B. > Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:28:24 -0400 > To: keith.grider at gmail.com > From: barrie at look.ca > CC: mgb-v8 at autox.team.net; mgs at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Mgb-v8] Electrical question > > My many thanks for your responses to my question on the Saab burn > up. My buddy is now mulling over the numerous very informative replies. > > Incidental, if anyone is contemplating cleaning bits and pieces using > a "rock" tumbler - give me a buzz, I have had great success using this method. > > > At 04:46 PM 3/30/2011, Keith Grider wrote: > >It may well have been put in reversed. The alternator on older saabs > >(c900) is grounded to the block by a small 10GA wire. If you put the > >battery in reversed, you may fry this short cable. A n internally > >shorted battery should do nothing good or bad, I would think. > > > >KeithG > > > >On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Barrie Robinson > ><barrie at look.ca> wrote: > >Hello folks at world, > > > >A sort of friend of mine found his battery was flat in his.......now > >wait for it......Saab! But this is an electrical question not a > >Saab/MG/Brit car question. > > > >He charged the battery and replaced with a resultant huge cloud of > >smoke and burning smell. The lead between the alternator and > >chassis was toast (it may have been the starter - he is not too > >observant!). Someone said it was because he reversed the polarity > >(hmmmm!) but the shop said the battery plates had collapsed and > >shorted out. To me neither sounds right. Anybody got an > >insightful suggestion > > > >Regards > > > >Barrie > >barrie at look.ca > >(705) 721-9060 > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Mgb-v8 at autox.team.net > >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Suggested annual donation $11.47 > >Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > >Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > >Unsubscribe/Manage: > >http:// autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgb-v8/keith.grider at gmail.com > > > > Regards > > Barrie > barrie at look.ca > 705--721-9060 > _______________________________________________ > > Mgb-v8 at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $11.47 > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgb-v8/jaguarsandrail at hotmail.com From barrie at look.ca Tue Apr 12 16:12:01 2011 From: barrie at look.ca (Barrie Robinson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:12:01 -0400 Subject: [Mgb-v8] Away on hols Message-ID: I know a few bodies said they were going to get some O-rings from me - but now I will be away on hols until 23rd April in Cuba - oh those cigars............. Regards, Barrie Robinson barrie at look.ca 705-721-9060 MGB GT V8 in great nick Aston Martin 1955 DB 2/4 MkII under restoration www.britishv8.org/MG/BarrieRobinson.htm www.britcot.com www.AMFClub.com From rshellen at comcast.net Wed Apr 13 06:40:01 2011 From: rshellen at comcast.net (Ron Shellenberger) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:40:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Mgb-v8] ON Holiday Message-ID: <384266076.1009692.1302698401831.JavaMail.root@sz0143a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I know a few bodies said they were going to get some O-rings from me - but now I will be away on hols until 23rd April in Cuba - oh those cigars............. Regards, Barrie Robinson barrie at look.ca 705-721-9060 MGB GT V8B in great nick Aston Martin 1955 DB 2/4 MkII under restoration Barrie, I don';t need any o-rings now, but those Cubain sticks sound good. Had a friend who went there last year thru Mexico and was going to bring a few back for us guys who smoke at the SCCA events. However he got cold feet about comming thru US Customs and getting fakes. I brought some in from Cancun several years and then found out they where fakes. Enjoy your holiday Ron Shellenberger All kinds of MGBs