From b.a.savage at cal.net  Fri Apr  5 16:25:58 2013
From: b.a.savage at cal.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:25:58 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
Message-ID: <515F4F76.5020200@cal.net>

Here is a nice off the wall question for the list.

A few recent engines have 13 to 1 compression ratios and burn 87 octane 
unleaded gasolinewithout pinging or detonation. One is also 
turbocharged(possiable memory failure here.)
They have what I believe is called direct or solid injection where the 
fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber not the intake port.
The only way I can see this working is if the fuel is ignited by the 
spark plug as it is sprayed into the combustion chamber. This would 
prevent combustionable fuel from reaching End Gas areas of the 
combustion chamber where it can detonate.

So my question is, what have I got screwed up????  Anything --- 
everything????

Thanks folks,
Bryan Savage

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Apr  6 08:29:30 2013
From: neil at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 07:29:30 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
In-Reply-To: <515F4F76.5020200@cal.net>
References: <515F4F76.5020200@cal.net>
Message-ID: <38F4B69A911646C3A158B54AE685DE8A@HP>

Bryan;

My Buick Lacrosse has direct injection but I don't know what its compression 
ratio is.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bryan Savage
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 3:25 PM
To: List Land Speed
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.

Here is a nice off the wall question for the list.

A few recent engines have 13 to 1 compression ratios and burn 87 octane
unleaded gasolinewithout pinging or detonation. One is also
turbocharged(possiable memory failure here.)
They have what I believe is called direct or solid injection where the
fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber not the intake port.
The only way I can see this working is if the fuel is ignited by the
spark plug as it is sprayed into the combustion chamber. This would
prevent combustionable fuel from reaching End Gas areas of the
combustion chamber where it can detonate.

So my question is, what have I got screwed up????  Anything --- 
everything????

Thanks folks,
Bryan Savage
_______________________________________________
Land-speed at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com 

From ronggibson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 10:02:24 2013
From: ronggibson at gmail.com (Ron Gibson)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 11:02:24 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
In-Reply-To: <38F4B69A911646C3A158B54AE685DE8A@HP>
References: <515F4F76.5020200@cal.net> <38F4B69A911646C3A158B54AE685DE8A@HP>
Message-ID: <CA+EC4v33KN1LeJdX6jVFA6XwRAcgYtr312qT-QiCyCosXqzLhg@mail.gmail.com>

Bryan
I think one of the late issues of Hot Rod explained this when telling about
the new GM engine. Don't remember for sure,read the article, (don't know if
it's stupidity or old age why I don't remember),seems like fuel is injected
late and not subjected to compression heat to lower detonation tendencies.
Also special piston dome shape to control flow.

Ron


On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Neil Albaugh <neil at dbelltech.com> wrote:

> Bryan;
>
> My Buick Lacrosse has direct injection but I don't know what its
> compression ratio is.
>
> Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Savage
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 3:25 PM
> To: List Land Speed
> Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
>
>
> Here is a nice off the wall question for the list.
>
> A few recent engines have 13 to 1 compression ratios and burn 87 octane
> unleaded gasolinewithout pinging or detonation. One is also
> turbocharged(possiable memory failure here.)
> They have what I believe is called direct or solid injection where the
> fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber not the intake port.
> The only way I can see this working is if the fuel is ignited by the
> spark plug as it is sprayed into the combustion chamber. This would
> prevent combustionable fuel from reaching End Gas areas of the
> combustion chamber where it can detonate.
>
> So my question is, what have I got screwed up????  Anything ---
> everything????
>
> Thanks folks,
> Bryan Savage
> ______________________________**_________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/land-speed/neil@**dbelltech.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com>______________________________
> **_________________
>
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.**html<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/**
> options/land-speed/ronggibson@**gmail.com<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/ronggibson at gmail.com>

From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Sat Apr  6 10:43:39 2013
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (joyseydevil at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 16:43:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
In-Reply-To: <38F4B69A911646C3A158B54AE685DE8A@HP>
Message-ID: <1774754037.530926.1365266619774.JavaMail.root@sz0092a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

Bryan

Wiki says WWII German aircraft usedB direct injectionB to make do with low
octane gasoline they made from coal .B My friend who worked for theB Orbital
Engine co in AustraliaB told about themB using it startingB in the 1970sB to
make theirB 2 cycle engines run cleanB .B  They say top fuelers have been
using it for a few years with continuous fuel pressure and a check valve
.B B For a performance engine having only dry air going through the intake
port would have to improve flow .

John




Here is a nice off the wall question for the list.

A few recent engines have 13 to 1 compression ratios and burn 87 octane
unleaded gasolinewithout pinging or detonation. One is also
turbocharged(possiable memory failure here.)
They have what I believe is called direct or solid injection where the
fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber not the intake port.
The only way I can see this working is if the fuel is ignited by the
spark plug as it is sprayed into the combustion chamber. This would
prevent combustionable fuel from reaching End Gas areas of the
combustion chamber where it can detonate.

So my question is, what have I got screwed up???? B Anything ---
everything????

Thanks folks,
Bryan Savage
_______________________________________________
Land-speed at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com
_______________________________________________
Land-speed at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/joyseydevil at comcast.net

From b.a.savage at cal.net  Sat Apr  6 11:10:15 2013
From: b.a.savage at cal.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 10:10:15 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Thank you everyone.
Message-ID: <516056F7.9060205@cal.net>

Interesting information.

Bryan

From mikebrakel at verizon.net  Sun Apr  7 06:04:05 2013
From: mikebrakel at verizon.net (Mike Brakel)
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 08:04:05 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
In-Reply-To: <38F4B69A911646C3A158B54AE685DE8A@HP>
References: <515F4F76.5020200@cal.net> <38F4B69A911646C3A158B54AE685DE8A@HP>
Message-ID: <001b01ce3388$01aa4d30$04fee790$@verizon.net>

I just read an article about direct injection in Motorcyclist magazine.
Here's a link to the article:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/columns/122_1304_trickle_down_tec
h_from_cars/


Mike Brakel
80 Theory



> -----Original Message-----
> From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-
> bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Neil Albaugh
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:30 AM
> To: Bryan Savage; List Land Speed
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
> 
> Bryan;
> 
> My Buick Lacrosse has direct injection but I don't know what its
compression
> ratio is.
> 
> Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryan Savage
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 3:25 PM
> To: List Land Speed
> Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
> 
> Here is a nice off the wall question for the list.
> 
> A few recent engines have 13 to 1 compression ratios and burn 87 octane
> unleaded gasolinewithout pinging or detonation. One is also
> turbocharged(possiable memory failure here.) They have what I believe is
> called direct or solid injection where the fuel is sprayed into the
combustion
> chamber not the intake port.
> The only way I can see this working is if the fuel is ignited by the spark
plug as
> it is sprayed into the combustion chamber. This would prevent
> combustionable fuel from reaching End Gas areas of the combustion
> chamber where it can detonate.
> 
> So my question is, what have I got screwed up????  Anything ---
> everything????
> 
> Thanks folks,
> Bryan Savage
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-
> speed/mikebrakel at verizon.net

From benn at sonic.net  Sun Apr  7 11:59:42 2013
From: benn at sonic.net (Benn)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:59:42 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.
In-Reply-To: <515F4F76.5020200@cal.net>
References: <515F4F76.5020200@cal.net>
Message-ID: <001d01ce33b9$aea9e820$0bfdb860$@sonic.net>

Sorry if someone mentioned this already, but I thought that variable cam
timing allows one to lower the effective CR as required to avoid knock.
Benn

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Savage
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 3:26 PM
To: List Land Speed
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list.

Here is a nice off the wall question for the list.

A few recent engines have 13 to 1 compression ratios and burn 87 octane
unleaded gasolinewithout pinging or detonation. One is also
turbocharged(possiable memory failure here.) They have what I believe is
called direct or solid injection where the fuel is sprayed into the
combustion chamber not the intake port.
The only way I can see this working is if the fuel is ignited by the spark
plug as it is sprayed into the combustion chamber. This would prevent
combustionable fuel from reaching End Gas areas of the combustion chamber
where it can detonate.

So my question is, what have I got screwed up????  Anything ---
everything????

Thanks folks,
Bryan Savage
_______________________________________________
Land-speed at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/benn at sonic.net

From saltfever at comcast.net  Mon Apr  8 13:24:52 2013
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 12:24:52 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list
Message-ID: <000001ce348e$bead9390$3c08bab0$@net>

Lean-of-Peak, Rich-of-Peak = (ROP and LOP) 

Since OEMs are in a never ending quest for emission reduction and gas
mileage, those two goals drive much of the new technology. NOX production
and detonation are both temperature related so lower EGTs are a good thing.
However, lower EGT could result in either increased efficiency (getting the
more work out of the BTUs available) or it could be very inefficient (LOP or
ROP) meaning the AFR is on either side of stoich. Stoich (14.7:1 for
gasoline) results in the peak highest temperature of combustion. Stoich is a
poor environment for both detonation and NOX. To get efficiency, gas
mileage, lower detonation tendency, and lower NOX, you would want to drive
the equation to the highest LOP and still have a smooth running engine.
Traditionally, smooth running with an AFR 15:1 or higher, was difficult to
achieve. However, direct injection, VCT, COP, knock sensing, and EMU spark
control, all come together with a high CR to extract as much useful work as
possible from a smooth running engine in a LOP environment that could not
exist without all of them working together. 

From yesford at clear.net.nz  Mon Apr  8 16:23:38 2013
From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris R Harris)
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:23:38 +1200
Subject: [Land-speed] A question for the list
In-Reply-To: <000001ce348e$bead9390$3c08bab0$@net>
References: <000001ce348e$bead9390$3c08bab0$@net>
Message-ID: <F535A20D0FF34FC5988269C8123CAAF8@HarrisPC>

Many thanks, an excellent piece of info.

We regularly hook up an O2 sensor and Innovate gauge to the exhaust of our 
various carbed rods both blown and NA to keep fuel nice and trim for light 
load highway cruise for best gas mileage where they honestly spend 99% of 
their time, right. We also checked the factory and aftermarket computer 
settings of a 2012 Shelby and 2013 Boss 302 and were amazed at how lean they 
run at around the 2,000 to 3,000 rpm with light load, supporting your info.
All good fun still playing hot rodding with both the old and new but 
important to understand what has become vastly different systems indeed.

Chris Harris..........NZed.

> Lean-of-Peak, Rich-of-Peak = (ROP and LOP)
>
> Since OEMs are in a never ending quest for emission reduction and gas
> mileage, those two goals drive much of the new technology. NOX production
> and detonation are both temperature related so lower EGTs are a good 
> thing.
> However, lower EGT could result in either increased efficiency (getting 
> the
> more work out of the BTUs available) or it could be very inefficient (LOP 
> or
> ROP) meaning the AFR is on either side of stoich. Stoich (14.7:1 for
> gasoline) results in the peak highest temperature of combustion. Stoich is 
> a
> poor environment for both detonation and NOX. To get efficiency, gas
> mileage, lower detonation tendency, and lower NOX, you would want to drive
> the equation to the highest LOP and still have a smooth running engine.
> Traditionally, smooth running with an AFR 15:1 or higher, was difficult to
> achieve. However, direct injection, VCT, COP, knock sensing, and EMU spark
> control, all come together with a high CR to extract as much useful work 
> as
> possible from a smooth running engine in a LOP environment that could not
> exist without all of them working together.
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/yesford at clear.net.nz