From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Tue Jul 10 14:15:51 2012
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:15:51 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Re Gerdelman dual engine
Message-ID: <BC5200E5BB5F40B1BA06A7586EF399DE@john>

Larry

No , didn't realize it still existed . Half the weight was on the front wheels
. The Freight Train had a QC rear so the engines could be a few inches back .
Joe's had an in-out box that moved them foreword a foot .

John

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Sat Jul 21 08:34:52 2012
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 07:34:52 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Site Test
Message-ID: <B5BCD9ED1E9142BF9CD5E4E3D7C67422@yourat5qgaac3z>

Hi,

Is this working?

Skip

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Sat Jul 21 08:43:29 2012
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 07:43:29 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: Wayne Ray
Message-ID: <305C626D2ABF4B4886230149A27682BD@yourat5qgaac3z>

----- Original Message -----
From: Skip Higginbotham

Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 20:53
Subject: Wayne Ray


Sorry to say that Shanna called this evening to let us know that Wayne passed
away last Friday of a heart attack. He will be laid to rest in Wyoming. I
wished her our very best and offered any assistance that we could provide.
Wayne and Shanna were preparing their Hudson for the salt.

Her address is: 1381 Lanette Circle, Pahrump, NV 89060.

Please let her know that we care.

Thanks,
Skip

From adin at frontier.net  Sat Jul 21 08:47:53 2012
From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 08:47:53 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Site Test
References: <B5BCD9ED1E9142BF9CD5E4E3D7C67422@yourat5qgaac3z>
Message-ID: <FBCF859A175F4B5D8FCF8D76D1F47F6A@ZTxp>

Yes.

Not much activity lately - thrash season???

cheers,
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Skip Higginbotham" <saltrat at pahrump.com>
To: "Land Speed Team" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 8:34 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Site Test


> Hi,
>
> Is this working?
>
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/adin at frontier.net
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 7317 (20120721) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 


__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7317 (20120721) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

From Rick at RBMotorsports.com  Sat Jul 21 10:31:17 2012
From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 12:31:17 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Site Test
References: <B5BCD9ED1E9142BF9CD5E4E3D7C67422@yourat5qgaac3z>
	<FBCF859A175F4B5D8FCF8D76D1F47F6A@ZTxp>
Message-ID: <89BF12F97685491A9DA3CAA2BF7FB194@Rick>

Yep, everyone is out in the shop.
Having participated in the ECTA meets once again (not with the car yet) as a 
car tech guy, I have been harder at it.

Ain't life wonderful. 

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Jul 21 10:39:46 2012
From: neil at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 09:39:46 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: Wayne Ray
In-Reply-To: <305C626D2ABF4B4886230149A27682BD@yourat5qgaac3z>
References: <305C626D2ABF4B4886230149A27682BD@yourat5qgaac3z>
Message-ID: <17585B2E91FA4A91953F19002A84C1DE@tiger>

Skip;

Thanks for passing along this news. I'm sorry to hear it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Skip Higginbotham" <saltrat at pahrump.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 7:43 AM
To: "Land Speed Team" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: Wayne Ray

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Skip Higginbotham
>
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 20:53
> Subject: Wayne Ray
>
>
> Sorry to say that Shanna called this evening to let us know that Wayne 
> passed
> away last Friday of a heart attack. He will be laid to rest in Wyoming. I
> wished her our very best and offered any assistance that we could provide.
> Wayne and Shanna were preparing their Hudson for the salt.
>
> Her address is: 1381 Lanette Circle, Pahrump, NV 89060.
>
> Please let her know that we care.
>
> Thanks,
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com 

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Tue Jul 31 11:14:41 2012
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:14:41 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Front suspension settings
Message-ID: <9BA28CBEA94F4B8CAD67C17A771DA2C4@yourat5qgaac3z>

The car is a late model door car (Camaro) for Bonneville. Air ride and
A-frames.

What should the alignment settings be? I would suggest:

Caster......Max factory
Camber....0
Toe............0
Scrub radius +/- 1/4" with 0 being optimum.

Suggestions/warnings?

Thank you in advance,
Skip

From saltfever at comcast.net  Tue Jul 31 13:02:07 2012
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:02:07 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Front suspension settings
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1343757602.11069.land-speed@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.13.1343757602.11069.land-speed@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <002101cd6f4e$fb808ad0$f281a070$@net>

Skip:  Not sure of the target speed but if you assume a dynamic down force
of 500-600lbs a lot of things move in that front end sheet metal when it
starts to squat. You definitely don't want it to move to a toe-out condition
and the only way to prevent that it to crank in some static toe-in. My
estimate would be about 1/8" toe. Also, you could test it in the garage by
loading some sand bags and then measuring to see which way it moves. -Kirk
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Land-speed digest..."
------------------------------------------------------------
What should the alignment settings be? I would suggest:
Toe............0
Scrub radius +/- 1/4" with 0 being optimum.

From neil at dbelltech.com  Tue Jul 31 13:53:39 2012
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:53:39 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Front suspension settings
In-Reply-To: <002101cd6f4e$fb808ad0$f281a070$@net>
References: <mailman.13.1343757602.11069.land-speed@autox.team.net>
	<002101cd6f4e$fb808ad0$f281a070$@net>
Message-ID: <cb9599a9ebb1a95af1d782d1338e2482.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com>

> Skip:  Not sure of the target speed but if you assume a dynamic down force
> of 500-600lbs a lot of things move in that front end sheet metal when it
> starts to squat. You definitely don't want it to move to a toe-out
> condition
> and the only way to prevent that it to crank in some static toe-in. My
> estimate would be about 1/8" toe. Also, you could test it in the garage by
> loading some sand bags and then measuring to see which way it moves. -Kirk
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of Land-speed digest..."
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> What should the alignment settings be? I would suggest:
> Toe............0
> Scrub radius +/- 1/4" with 0 being optimum.
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com
>
Skip;

The car I'm building is completely different from your Camaro so my front
suspension settings would not help you; however, the principles still
apply. You definitely want to see how your wheels move over the full range
of your suspension travel to make sure nothing bad is taking place. As an
alternative to the sandbag method, I'd suggest you get your Camaro up on
jack stands and remove the front springs. This way you can move the wheels
from full bump to full droop. I'd use a small jack to raise the a-arms up
in 1/2" increments and measure the toe, camber, and caster at each point.
Do both sides. Look especially for toe change in bump (above your normal
ride height ); zero toe change is the best but minimize it as best you
can. Normally the height of the steering box is moved changed to change
the toe curve but the steering arm/ball joint can be shimmed to do the
same thing. In your case the change in camber and caster is acedemic since
you are using (presumably) the factory geometry.

Regards, Neil  temporarily in Ouray, CO

From saltfever at comcast.net  Tue Jul 31 14:29:24 2012
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:29:24 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Front suspension settings
In-Reply-To: <cb9599a9ebb1a95af1d782d1338e2482.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com>
References: <mailman.13.1343757602.11069.land-speed@autox.team.net>   
	<002101cd6f4e$fb808ad0$f281a070$@net>
	<cb9599a9ebb1a95af1d782d1338e2482.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com>
Message-ID: <002501cd6f5b$2d60fb50$8822f1f0$@net>

Good information, Neil . . .  I like your idea. But on that car the front
shock towers are sheet metal flexi-flyers!  I don't know how his roll cage
contributes to front end rigidity but, assuming no reinforcement, we need to
consider how load changes geometry. When measuring shouldn't your method be
statically loaded to get a better representation of the dynamic conditions?
-Kirk
------------------------------------------
. . .  You definitely want to see how your wheels move over the full range
of your suspension travel to make sure nothing bad is taking place. As an
alternative to the sandbag method, I'd suggest you get your Camaro up on
jack stands and remove the front springs. Regards, Neil  temporarily in
Ouray, CO

From neil at dbelltech.com  Tue Jul 31 14:44:38 2012
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:44:38 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Front suspension settings
In-Reply-To: <002501cd6f5b$2d60fb50$8822f1f0$@net>
References: <mailman.13.1343757602.11069.land-speed@autox.team.net>
	<002101cd6f4e$fb808ad0$f281a070$@net>
	<cb9599a9ebb1a95af1d782d1338e2482.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com>
	<002501cd6f5b$2d60fb50$8822f1f0$@net>
Message-ID: <8cf793ae08cef6eaad11af412a9cd0f4.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com>

> Good information, Neil . . .  I like your idea. But on that car the front
> shock towers are sheet metal flexi-flyers!  I don't know how his roll cage
> contributes to front end rigidity but, assuming no reinforcement, we need
> to
> consider how load changes geometry. When measuring shouldn't your method
> be
> statically loaded to get a better representation of the dynamic
> conditions?
> -Kirk
> ------------------------------------------
> . . .  You definitely want to see how your wheels move over the full range
> of your suspension travel to make sure nothing bad is taking place. As an
> alternative to the sandbag method, I'd suggest you get your Camaro up on
> jack stands and remove the front springs. Regards, Neil  temporarily in
> Ouray, CO
>
Kirk;

I don't know beans about Camaros. However, if the shock tower is the
attachment point for a strut, you're definitely right. You'd still like to
see what happens during droop but bump is the most important. If the
suspension is only a spring/shock, the flex has only a minor effect
(comparatively) but, in any case, stiffening the shock towers with a
Y-brace is a good idea.

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Tue Jul 31 14:54:40 2012
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:54:40 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Front suspension settings
References: <mailman.13.1343757602.11069.land-speed@autox.team.net><002101cd6f4e$fb808ad0$f281a070$@net>
	<cb9599a9ebb1a95af1d782d1338e2482.squirrel@email.accountsupport.com>
Message-ID: <5FB1C08396B54F38B3F6EA07E48915F7@yourat5qgaac3z>

Neil,
Good ideas. With air ride it should be easier to do on the frontend machine.
Skip
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: "Kirkwood" <saltfever at comcast.net>
Cc: "land-speed" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:53
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Front suspension settings


>> Skip:  Not sure of the target speed but if you assume a dynamic down 
>> force
>> of 500-600lbs a lot of things move in that front end sheet metal when it
>> starts to squat. You definitely don't want it to move to a toe-out
>> condition
>> and the only way to prevent that it to crank in some static toe-in. My
>> estimate would be about 1/8" toe. Also, you could test it in the garage 
>> by
>> loading some sand bags and then measuring to see which way it 
>> moves. -Kirk
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
>> "Re: Contents of Land-speed digest..."
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> What should the alignment settings be? I would suggest:
>> Toe............0
>> Scrub radius +/- 1/4" with 0 being optimum.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Land-speed at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com
>>
> Skip;
>
> The car I'm building is completely different from your Camaro so my front
> suspension settings would not help you; however, the principles still
> apply. You definitely want to see how your wheels move over the full range
> of your suspension travel to make sure nothing bad is taking place. As an
> alternative to the sandbag method, I'd suggest you get your Camaro up on
> jack stands and remove the front springs. This way you can move the wheels
> from full bump to full droop. I'd use a small jack to raise the a-arms up
> in 1/2" increments and measure the toe, camber, and caster at each point.
> Do both sides. Look especially for toe change in bump (above your normal
> ride height ); zero toe change is the best but minimize it as best you
> can. Normally the height of the steering box is moved changed to change
> the toe curve but the steering arm/ball joint can be shimmed to do the
> same thing. In your case the change in camber and caster is acedemic since
> you are using (presumably) the factory geometry.
>
> Regards, Neil  temporarily in Ouray, CO
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/saltrat at pahrump.com