From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jan 1 07:48:11 2012 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 06:48:11 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: New Year Message-ID: <0959B4AA35C04FEEA3E0A6E4614C7B58@yourat5qgaac3z> ----- Original Message ----- From: Skip Higginbotham To: Land Speed Team > Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 06:36 Subject: New Year Happy New Year all. Hope it's a good one for each of you. Skip and Joyce Higginbotham From jolylance at earthlink.net Sun Jan 1 16:18:34 2012 From: jolylance at earthlink.net (JOE LANCE) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:18:34 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Manufacturing Story Message-ID: A toothpaste factory had a problem: they sometimes shipped empty boxes, without the tube inside. This was due to the way the production line was set up, and people with experience in designing production lines will tell you how difficult it is to have everything happen with timing so precise that every single unit coming out of it is perfect 100% of the time. Small variations in the environment (which can't be controlled in a cost-effective fashion) mean you must have quality assurance checks smartly distributed across the line so that customers all the way down to the supermarket don't get pissed off and buy another product instead. Understanding how important that was, the CEO of the toothpaste factory got the top people in the company together and they decided to start a new project, in which they would hire an external engineering company to solve their empty boxes problem, as their engineering department was already too stretched to take on any extra effort. The project followed the usual process: budget and project sponsor allocated, RFP, third-parties selected, and six months (and $8 million) later they had a fantastic solution - on time, on budget, high quality and everyone in the project had a great time. They solved the problem by using high-tech precision scales that would sound a bell and flash lights whenever a toothpaste box would weigh less than it should. The line would stop, and someone had to walk over and yank the defective box out of it, pressing another button when done to re-start the line. A while later, the CEO decides to have a look at the ROI of the project: amazing results! No empty boxes ever shipped out of the factory after the scales were put in place. Very few customer complaints, and they were gaining market share. "That's some money well spent!" - he says, before looking closely at the other statistics in the report. It turns out, the number of defects picked up by the scales was 0 after three weeks of production use. It should've been picking up at least a dozen a day, so maybe there was something wrong with the report. He filed a bug against it, and after some investigation, the engineers come back saying the report was actually correct. The scales really weren't picking up any defects, because all boxes that got to that point in the conveyor belt were good. Puzzled, the CEO travels down to the factory, and walks up to the part of the line where the precision scales were installed. A few feet before the scale, there was a $20 desk fan, blowing the empty boxes out of the belt and into a bin. "Oh, that," says one of the workers - "one of the guys put it there 'cause he was tired of walking over... "every time the bell rang". From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 10:26:36 2012 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 10:26:36 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Congress to end ethanol subsidy Message-ID: From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 14:35:20 2012 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:35:20 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Ethanol article Message-ID: Apparently the link didn't make it to everyone. The story is in USA Today. You could check there if you didn't get the link. Wes From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jan 9 18:29:52 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:29:52 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Rule Changes for 2012? Message-ID: <4F0B9490.3030501@mayfco.com> I seem to be out of the loop, well, yeah, I live in Pahrump, lol, but are there rule changes for 2012 out and posted yet? If so, a link, please? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jan 9 19:20:30 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:20:30 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Rule Changes for 2012? In-Reply-To: <4F0B9490.3030501@mayfco.com> References: <4F0B9490.3030501@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4F0BA06E.5040203@mayfco.com> Never mind, found them! mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/9/2012 5:29 PM, Larry Mayfield wrote: > I seem to be out of the loop, well, yeah, I live in Pahrump, lol, but > are there rule changes for 2012 out and posted yet? If so, a link, please? > > mayf From jdincau at qnet.com Mon Jan 9 19:46:06 2012 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:46:06 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Rule Changes for 2012? In-Reply-To: <4F0B9490.3030501@mayfco.com> References: <4F0B9490.3030501@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <703E119B03A644A7976DE86953147AE6@denpc> They are on the SCTA/BNI web site, here is a link to the PDF http://www.scta-bni.org/Rulebook/2012%20rule%20change%20final.pdf -----Original Message----- From: Larry Mayfield Date: Monday, January 09, 2012 5:29 PM To: land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: [Land-speed] Rule Changes for 2012? I seem to be out of the loop, well, yeah, I live in Pahrump, lol, but are there rule changes for 2012 out and posted yet? If so, a link, please? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/jdincau at qnet.com From saltfever at comcast.net Tue Jan 10 18:41:26 2012 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:41:26 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Rules change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003301ccd002$2241c770$66c55650$@net> Mayf: Same story here . . . thanks for asking the question! Jim thanks for the link. From: Larry Mayfield I seem to be out of the loop, well, yeah, I live in Pahrump, lol, but are there rule changes for 2012 out and posted yet? If so, a link, please? From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Jan 13 20:44:41 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:44:41 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Server for Autox. team .net Message-ID: <4F10FA29.9000308@mayfco.com> Is the server down or has Mark decided that I am persona non grata? None of the Autox lists I subscribe to are functional for me. Replies? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed From calkins at camspray.com Fri Jan 13 22:26:09 2012 From: calkins at camspray.com (Justin Calkins) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:26:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Land-speed] Server for Autox. team .net In-Reply-To: <4F10FA29.9000308@mayfco.com> References: <4F10FA29.9000308@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <1326518769.874716055@webmail.ecwwebworks.com> I can hear ya.... Justin -----Original Message----- From: "Larry Mayfield" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 9:44pm To: "land-speed at autox.team.net" Subject: [Land-speed] Server for Autox. team .net Is the server down or has Mark decided that I am persona non grata? None of the Autox lists I subscribe to are functional for me. Replies? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/calkins at camspray.com From mark at bradakis.com Fri Jan 13 22:56:05 2012 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:56:05 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] That was festive! Message-ID: <4F1118F5.8050607@bradakis.com> Century Link is now the name of the company that used to be called Qwest. They do telecommunications, internet such as Team.Net's DSL connection, and now various entertainment products. They spent a lot of money advertising the change, and how they are so committed to customer service, blah blah blah. I, personally, didn't think that much would change. Be that as it may, the little green light on my trusty Cisco 678 DSL modem is once again brightly lit, bits are flowing once again. I do apologize for the delays, inconvenience and frustration those of you addicted to your Team.Net fix may have suffered. mjb. From yesford at clear.net.nz Fri Jan 13 23:01:58 2012 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris R Harris) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:01:58 +1300 Subject: [Land-speed] Server for Autox. team .net In-Reply-To: <1326518769.874716055@webmail.ecwwebworks.com> References: <4F10FA29.9000308@mayfco.com> <1326518769.874716055@webmail.ecwwebworks.com> Message-ID: <6400C04C23C540E0A575A7A9E265D6D2@HarrisPC> Mayf, It's 7.00 pm here down under, been a hot clear day with light breeze, just cranked up the computer and all coming through loud and clear. Chris Harris........NZed. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Justin Calkins" Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:26 PM To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Server for Autox. team .net > I can hear ya.... > > Justin > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Larry > Mayfield" > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 9:44pm > To: > "land-speed at autox.team.net" > Subject: [Land-speed] > Server for Autox. team .net > > > > Is the server down or has Mark decided that I > am persona non grata? > None of the Autox lists I subscribe to are functional > for me. > > Replies? > > mayf > > -- > ______________________________ > drmayf > Worlds > Fastest Sunbeam, period. > 204.913 mph flying mile > 210.779 mph exit speed > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/calkins at camspray.com > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/yesford at clear.net.nz From neil at dbelltech.com Sat Jan 14 10:49:53 2012 From: neil at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:49:53 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 Message-ID: <5E90DBE8297443258169588F3B1F0E2E@tiger> Check out what was running out at Muroc Dry Lake in 1938. http://youtu.be/fujo5fHSCzk Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ From saltfever at comcast.net Sun Jan 15 00:01:04 2012 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:01:04 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01ccd353$732d59c0$59880d40$@net> Nice, Neil and thanx. Where is Harpers dry lake? Check out what was running out at Muroc Dry Lake in 1938. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ http://youtu.be/fujo5fHSCzk . From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jan 15 08:40:01 2012 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 07:40:01 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 References: <000c01ccd353$732d59c0$59880d40$@net> Message-ID: <8B4BF57C655A4B3EB07BDE367432DD0B@yourat5qgaac3z> North and East of Edward's AFB and about 15 miles West of barstow, CA Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirkwood" To: "land-speed" Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 23:01 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 > Nice, Neil and thanx. Where is Harpers dry lake? > > Check out what was running out at Muroc Dry Lake in 1938. > Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ > http://youtu.be/fujo5fHSCzk From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Jan 15 08:51:43 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 07:51:43 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 In-Reply-To: <8B4BF57C655A4B3EB07BDE367432DD0B@yourat5qgaac3z> References: <000c01ccd353$732d59c0$59880d40$@net> <8B4BF57C655A4B3EB07BDE367432DD0B@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: <4F12F60F.7020306@mayfco.com> Hey, Skip! didn't I recognize you in one of the photos? Yeah, I think so. mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/15/2012 7:40 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > North and East of Edward's AFB and about 15 miles West of barstow, CA > > Skip > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirkwood" > To: "land-speed" > Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 23:01 > Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 > > >> Nice, Neil and thanx. Where is Harpers dry lake? >> >> Check out what was running out at Muroc Dry Lake in 1938. Regards, >> Neil Tucson, AZ >> http://youtu.be/fujo5fHSCzk > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/drmayf at mayfco.com From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jan 15 11:11:53 2012 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:11:53 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 References: <000c01ccd353$732d59c0$59880d40$@net> <8B4BF57C655A4B3EB07BDE367432DD0B@yourat5qgaac3z> <4F12F60F.7020306@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <2BF02113B8D641C7B75821161381A38D@yourat5qgaac3z> Geeezz!!!! '38???? Come on now.............(-: Only one other guy that could be that old........wonder who.............. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Mayfield To: Skip Higginbotham Cc: Kirkwood ; land-speed Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 07:51 Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 Hey, Skip! didn't I recognize you in one of the photos? Yeah, I think so. mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/15/2012 7:40 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: North and East of Edward's AFB and about 15 miles West of barstow, CA Skip From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Jan 15 12:36:23 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:36:23 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 In-Reply-To: <2BF02113B8D641C7B75821161381A38D@yourat5qgaac3z> References: <000c01ccd353$732d59c0$59880d40$@net> <8B4BF57C655A4B3EB07BDE367432DD0B@yourat5qgaac3z> <4F12F60F.7020306@mayfco.com> <2BF02113B8D641C7B75821161381A38D@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: <4F132AB7.7000700@mayfco.com> Gary LaRonge or Dan Warner... maybe Monte Wolfe. mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/15/2012 10:11 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > Geeezz!!!! '38???? Come on now.............(-: Only one other guy that > could be that old........wonder who.............. > Skip > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Larry Mayfield > *To:* Skip Higginbotham > *Cc:* Kirkwood ; land-speed > > *Sent:* Sunday, January 15, 2012 07:51 > *Subject:* Re: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 > > Hey, Skip! > > didn't I recognize you in one of the photos? Yeah, I think so. > > mayf > > ______________________________ > drmayf > Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. > 204.913 mph flying mile > 210.779 mph exit speed > > > On 1/15/2012 7:40 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: >> North and East of Edward's AFB and about 15 miles West of >> barstow, CA >> >> Skip From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jan 15 12:55:53 2012 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:55:53 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 References: <000c01ccd353$732d59c0$59880d40$@net> <8B4BF57C655A4B3EB07BDE367432DD0B@yourat5qgaac3z> <4F12F60F.7020306@mayfco.com> <2BF02113B8D641C7B75821161381A38D@yourat5qgaac3z> <4F132AB7.7000700@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <6FD85572DE92401ABEEBBDA5B6B5ACCC@yourat5qgaac3z> Ahhhh, pretty good selection........... Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Mayfield To: Skip Higginbotham Cc: Kirkwood ; land-speed Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:36 Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 Gary LaRonge or Dan Warner... maybe Monte Wolfe. mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/15/2012 10:11 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: Geeezz!!!! '38???? Come on now.............(-: Only one other guy that could be that old........wonder who.............. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Mayfield To: Skip Higginbotham Cc: Kirkwood ; land-speed Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 07:51 Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 Hey, Skip! didn't I recognize you in one of the photos? Yeah, I think so. mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/15/2012 7:40 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: North and East of Edward's AFB and about 15 miles West of barstow, CA Skip From jet at pistonsandrods.com Sun Jan 15 14:14:19 2012 From: jet at pistonsandrods.com (Jet Fuel) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:14:19 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 In-Reply-To: <6FD85572DE92401ABEEBBDA5B6B5ACCC@yourat5qgaac3z> References: <000c01ccd353$732d59c0$59880d40$@net> <8B4BF57C655A4B3EB07BDE367432DD0B@yourat5qgaac3z> <4F12F60F.7020306@mayfco.com> <2BF02113B8D641C7B75821161381A38D@yourat5qgaac3z> <4F132AB7.7000700@mayfco.com> <6FD85572DE92401ABEEBBDA5B6B5ACCC@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: Just made a pass down Harper yesterday! Erosion ruts along the shoreline. Nice down the center! Sent from a iPad-nano-like android device from Riley's (formerly 'Our Place) in Hinkley. -The Other Glen (SCTA 966B) On Jan 15, 2012 12:03 PM, "Skip Higginbotham" wrote: > Ahhhh, pretty good selection........... > > Skip > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Mayfield > To: Skip Higginbotham > Cc: Kirkwood ; land-speed > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:36 > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 > > > Gary LaRonge or Dan Warner... maybe Monte Wolfe. > > mayf > > ______________________________ > drmayf > Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. > 204.913 mph flying mile > 210.779 mph exit speed > On 1/15/2012 10:11 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > Geeezz!!!! '38???? Come on now.............(-: Only one other guy that > could be that old........wonder who.............. > > Skip > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Mayfield > To: Skip Higginbotham > Cc: Kirkwood ; land-speed > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 07:51 > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 > > > Hey, Skip! > > didn't I recognize you in one of the photos? Yeah, I think so. > > mayf > > ______________________________ > drmayf > Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. > 204.913 mph flying mile > 210.779 mph exit speed > On 1/15/2012 7:40 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > North and East of Edward's AFB and about 15 miles West of barstow, > CA > > Skip > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/jet at pistonsandrods.com From daw1 at comcast.net Sun Jan 15 16:12:15 2012 From: daw1 at comcast.net (Doug) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:12:15 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 In-Reply-To: <5E90DBE8297443258169588F3B1F0E2E@tiger> References: <5E90DBE8297443258169588F3B1F0E2E@tiger> Message-ID: <3D3513FB98DA4C279CF72A237B007F36@DougPC> Did any of you know Gil Belcher from Calif.? He ran Muroc before '42 when he enlisted. He had a '32 roadster. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Albaugh" To: "landspeed at autox.team.net" Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:49 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Muroc Dry Lake in 1938 > Check out what was running out at Muroc Dry Lake in 1938. > > > > http://youtu.be/fujo5fHSCzk > > > > Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/daw1 at comcast.net From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Jan 17 20:20:31 2012 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:20:31 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: All You Need to Know about Government: non landspeed References: <1326853943.28487.YahooMailNeo@web125119.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > After dealing with the BLM for reserving the salt flats this really hits home. > ALL You Need to Know about Government > > > > > > > All You Need to Know about Government Bureaucracy: > > > ** Pythagorean theorem:...................................................24 words. > ** Lord's prayer:...........................................................66 words. > ** Archimedes' Principle:..................................................67 words. > ** 10 Commandments:....................................................179 words. > ** Gettysburg address:..................................................286 words. > ** Declaration of Independence :......................................1,300 words. > ** US Constitution with all 27 Amendments:..........................7,818 words. > ** US Government regulations on sale of cabbage:......26,911 words. > No further explanation needed.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get the Free email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com > Unlimited Email Storage  POP3  Calendar  SMS  Translator  Much More! > ____________________________________________________________"African Fruit Burns Fat" > Learn How This Strange 62-Cent Exotic Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny > HealthScienceMag.com From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jan 18 08:45:46 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:45:46 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Message-ID: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> Many times when I am ou watchng cars and not in line waiting my turn, I hear the tow crew come on the CB line with comments like the driver reports he lost the motor or blew a tire or some other disaster in the run downrange. My question is: How does the driver talk to the crew in the tow truck? I can see big utility in having an in car comm system to notify the tow that something is amiss but I have never looked to see what could and can be used. I can also see where a peer to peer ad hoc network on the salt might also be helpful for data gathering and communication as well. So, I'd like to hear from any and all about their systems in car and in pit and tow that they might have. I think I would like to invest in one also if I don't have to rob the main Chinese bank (ours don't have any money, lol)... Comments? Thoughts? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed From ed at vetteracing.com Wed Jan 18 09:24:50 2012 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:24:50 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Message-ID: I have a friend that is involved in off-road racing, and monitors his driver with an FM radio in his truck that has a range of 75 miles in ideal conditions. Here is the web site of the Co. he uses; http://www.racingradiowarehouse.com/ Enjoy... Ed V -----Original Message----- From: Larry Mayfield [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 08:45 AM To: land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Many times when I am ou watchng cars and not in line waiting my turn, I hear the tow crew come on the CB line with comments like the driver reports he lost the motor or blew a tire or some other disaster in the run downrange. My question is: How does the driver talk to the crew in the tow truck? I can see big utility in having an in car comm system to notify the tow that something is amiss but I have never looked to see what could and can be used. I can also see where a peer to peer ad hoc network on the salt might also be helpful for data gathering and communication as well. So, I'd like to hear from any and all about their systems in car and in pit and tow that they might have. I think I would like to invest in one also if I don't have to rob the main Chinese bank (ours don't have any money, lol)... Comments? Thoughts? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/ed at vetteracing.com From saltrat at pahrump.com Wed Jan 18 11:51:16 2012 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:51:16 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <9C962660201641F18D5F4C59FD8FACAE@yourat5qgaac3z> www.compcomm.biz is a good source for World of Speed radios and in-car communication associated with Bonneville racing. Jim Russell is the contact. I have tried cell phones in the past and that could be refined. Could also put a hand held CB somewhere in the racecar for "after run" comm. Anything you might use would be affected by magneto interference. I would think filtering would be necessary. And then there is "dragging along" an antenna. Data telemetry would really be a good addition for me. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Mayfield" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 07:45 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > Many times when I am ou watchng cars and not in line waiting my turn, I > hear the tow crew come on the CB line with comments like the driver > reports he lost the motor or blew a tire or some other disaster in the > run downrange. My question is: How does the driver talk to the crew in > the tow truck? I can see big utility in having an in car comm system to > notify the tow that something is amiss but I have never looked to see > what could and can be used. I can also see where a peer to peer ad hoc > network on the salt might also be helpful for data gathering and > communication as well. > > So, I'd like to hear from any and all about their systems in car and in > pit and tow that they might have. I think I would like to invest in one > also if I don't have to rob the main Chinese bank (ours don't have any > money, lol)... > > Comments? Thoughts? > > mayf > > -- > ______________________________ > drmayf > Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. > 204.913 mph flying mile > 210.779 mph exit speed > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/saltrat at pahrump.com From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Wed Jan 18 13:03:50 2012 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:03:50 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <2C2FCA3F-0382-4148-83D6-DC070F997592@nancyandjon.org> Mayf, I'm a ham radio operator - and so are a good number of the rest of the racers. I've had lots of experience with in-car (and even in/on-bike) two way radios. Rest at ease and look around at the suggestions that others make on which style -- AM (CB), FM, etc -- but make sure you ask a radio person about the antenna. The aerial can make or break a radio system. They come in all sizes and shapes, with some working far better than others. Putting up the base station (at your pit or in your support vehicle) is the easy part. Getting things working in the car is quite a challenge -- but it's done frequently and well. Be in touch, hey? Jon a/k/a SSS On Jan 18, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Larry Mayfield wrote: > Many times when I am ou watchng cars and not in line waiting my turn, I > hear the tow crew come on the CB line with comments like the driver > reports he lost the motor or blew a tire or some other disaster in the > run downrange. My question is: How does the driver talk to the crew in > the tow truck? I can see big utility in having an in car comm system to > notify the tow that something is amiss but I have never looked to see > what could and can be used. I can also see where a peer to peer ad hoc > network on the salt might also be helpful for data gathering and > communication as well. > > So, I'd like to hear from any and all about their systems in car and in > pit and tow that they might have. I think I would like to invest in one > also if I don't have to rob the main Chinese bank (ours don't have any > money, lol)... > > Comments? Thoughts? > > mayf From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Wed Jan 18 18:44:10 2012 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:44:10 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> <9C962660201641F18D5F4C59FD8FACAE@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: <7675526657C5417886278712948B0246@Rick> "Data telemetry would really be a good addition for me. Skip" I had heard that the GM program that tried "real time" telemetry had problems. Some kind of magic aurora around the car moving fast over the salt, etc etc. I passed that along to the Ford fuel cell engineers when working with them on the Fusion project. Being high tech guys in a high tech world, they proceeded with it anyway. Well it didn't work. They could not download a bit until the car was off course. But, by downloading then and communicating to the pits, they had each problem partially remedied before the car was towed all the way back. Just Sayin From dahlgren536 at comcast.net Wed Jan 18 19:24:41 2012 From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:24:41 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <7675526657C5417886278712948B0246@Rick> References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com><9C962660201641F18D5F4C59FD8FACAE@yourat5qgaac3z> <7675526657C5417886278712948B0246@Rick> Message-ID: Come on a special aurora?? we can chat with a satalite that goes to mars and jupiter at 20k mph in real time. I think they need a better astrologer.. maybe magic chicken bones would help.. Rule 1 of engineering no one is nearly as smart as you think they are... especially with explanations like this..Why not just turn up the mojo generator and adjust the etch-a-sketch interface to get all the iron particles aligned.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Byrnes" To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > "Data telemetry would really be a good addition for me. > Skip" > > I had heard that the GM program that tried "real time" telemetry had > problems. Some kind of magic aurora around the car moving fast over the > salt, etc etc. > > I passed that along to the Ford fuel cell engineers when working with them > on the Fusion project. Being high tech guys in a high tech world, they > proceeded with it anyway. Well it didn't work. They could not download a > bit until the car was off course. > But, by downloading then and communicating to the pits, they had each > problem partially remedied before the car was towed all the way back. > > Just Sayin From mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Thu Jan 19 06:57:39 2012 From: mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (Meierle, Michael D (Mike)) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:57:39 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com><9C962660201641F18D5F4C59FD8FACAE@yourat5qgaac3z> <7675526657C5417886278712948B0246@Rick> Message-ID: The communications system has to be designed for speed. A little thing called Doppler affects microwave communication as well as sound. Cop Radios (800Mhz) and such are designed for this, but not for 200MPH. Even Motorola doesn't expect you to go that fast. NASCAR and F1 do it but their pockets are a bit deeper. MIKE MEIERLE SR. SYSTEMS ENGINEER ALCATEL-LUCENT 7751 Windsor Drive Dublin, Ohio 43016 (614) 284-6229 mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave Dahlgren Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:25 PM To: Rick Byrnes; Skip Higginbotham; drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Come on a special aurora?? we can chat with a satalite that goes to mars and jupiter at 20k mph in real time. I think they need a better astrologer.. maybe magic chicken bones would help.. Rule 1 of engineering no one is nearly as smart as you think they are... especially with explanations like this..Why not just turn up the mojo generator and adjust the etch-a-sketch interface to get all the iron particles aligned.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Byrnes" To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > "Data telemetry would really be a good addition for me. > Skip" > > I had heard that the GM program that tried "real time" telemetry had > problems. Some kind of magic aurora around the car moving fast over the > salt, etc etc. > > I passed that along to the Ford fuel cell engineers when working with them > on the Fusion project. Being high tech guys in a high tech world, they > proceeded with it anyway. Well it didn't work. They could not download a > bit until the car was off course. > But, by downloading then and communicating to the pits, they had each > problem partially remedied before the car was towed all the way back. From neil at dbelltech.com Thu Jan 19 09:05:30 2012 From: neil at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:05:30 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com><9C962660201641F18D5F4C59FD8FACAE@yourat5qgaac3z><7675526657C5417886278712948B0246@Rick> Message-ID: A good phase-lock loop would solve their problem-- if they have a problem. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Meierle, Michael D (Mike)" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 6:57 AM To: "Dave Dahlgren" ; "Rick Byrnes" ; "Skip Higginbotham" ; ; Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > The communications system has to be designed for speed. A little thing > called > Doppler affects microwave communication as well as sound. > > Cop Radios (800Mhz) and such are designed for this, but not for 200MPH. > > Even Motorola doesn't expect you to go that fast. > > NASCAR and F1 do it but their pockets are a bit deeper. > > > MIKE MEIERLE > SR. SYSTEMS ENGINEER > ALCATEL-LUCENT > 7751 Windsor Drive > Dublin, Ohio 43016 > (614) 284-6229 > mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave Dahlgren > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:25 PM > To: Rick Byrnes; Skip Higginbotham; drmayf at mayfco.com; > land-speed at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > > Come on a special aurora?? we can chat with a satalite that goes to mars > and > jupiter at 20k mph in real time. I think they need a better astrologer.. > maybe magic chicken bones would help.. Rule 1 of engineering no one is > nearly as smart as you think they are... especially with explanations like > this..Why not just turn up the mojo generator and adjust the etch-a-sketch > interface to get all the iron particles aligned.. > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick Byrnes" > To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; ; > > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > > >> "Data telemetry would really be a good addition for me. >> Skip" >> >> I had heard that the GM program that tried "real time" telemetry had >> problems. Some kind of magic aurora around the car moving fast over the >> salt, etc etc. >> >> I passed that along to the Ford fuel cell engineers when working with >> them >> on the Fusion project. Being high tech guys in a high tech world, they >> proceeded with it anyway. Well it didn't work. They could not download >> a >> bit until the car was off course. >> But, by downloading then and communicating to the pits, they had each >> problem partially remedied before the car was towed all the way back. > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jan 19 09:37:32 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:37:32 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Message-ID: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> I have not been in the land speed activity very long, but a recurring theme does seem evident. And that is electrical stuff seems to malfunction or misbehave when out on the salt. So, perhaps a side lobe to the communication question can be explored: "What the heck is going on?" I am sure theories and hypotheses abound, but is there evidence of actuality? I.e., data? I know I have some thoughts but no real theories or even a hypothesis that can be fully explored. I can make some assumptions, however. Like he salt is damp and salty damp stuff is electrically conductive. That electrics, whether radio, Dc or ac, generate electromagnetic fields. That a moving electric or magnetic field with a conductor generates amps in the conductor in this case, the salt pan. Weak, for sure, but then radio signals are not very bright either. So, could the lack of good communication be attributed to the fields generated by a moving electromagnetic field over a conductive sheet of damp salt? And would the current generated mimic the shape of the communication signal to the point where interference occurs? How to easily test? Or how to shield? smart guys, here is your chance to step right up and make a lasting contribution to the field of moving radio communications on a wet salt pan. If it matters, lol... mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Thu Jan 19 10:57:20 2012 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <8D684679CE644298919869FC9E027E62@Rick> DAVE, There is a challenge that you can take up and show us just how F#$%#%$ smart you really are. From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 13 22:46:24 2012 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:46:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Land-speed] Server for Autox. team .net In-Reply-To: <4F10FA29.9000308@mayfco.com> References: <4F10FA29.9000308@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <1326519984.42376.YahooMailNeo@web113816.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> You must be up late. Have some wine(like me) and cool it. We all get your posts. Carry on. DW From: Larry Mayfield To: "land-speed at autox.team.net" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 7:44 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Server for Autox. team .net Is the server down or has Mark decided that I am persona non grata? None of the Autox lists I subscribe to are functional for me. Replies? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/dwarner230 at yahoo.com From John.Staiger at StecMotorsports.com Wed Jan 18 13:12:26 2012 From: John.Staiger at StecMotorsports.com (John Staiger) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:12:26 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <004801ccd61d$804ff0a0$80efd1e0$@StecMotorsports.com> Mayf, I have always admired your knack for introducing subjects that are stored in boxes marked "Pandora". LOL... Below are some of our many lessons learned on this subject. They may not be perfectly accurate but they seem to serve us well: First, the salt plays havoc with certain radio spectrum and the "advertised" distance of various radios will not even be close. I do not know why this is, but is sure seems to be true. There are two types of applicable radio spectrum - "business licensed" (the FM radios used by police, lumber yards, BNI, etc.) and "public use" (CB, MURS, FRS/GMRS). Since "business licensed" cost money and require compliance documentation, etc. we choose to leave this spectrum to the likes of the SCTA/BNI. Although it should be noted that you can rent radios & spectrum from reputable race radio shops, we still place this in the expensive category. In addition, there are other publicly licensed spectrum for things like Amateur radio, 900Mhz phones, etc. but again they are not applicable to most racers. We have noted that all of these are in use at Bonneville by one group or another. Of the applicable public spectrum: -CB1 - HF range(~27 Mhz) @ ~ 5 watts pr/handheld -MURS or CB2 - VHF range @ ~ 5watts (~151 Mhz range) pr/handheld -FRS/GMRS - UHF range @ either .5 watt (FRS) or 5 watts handheld/50 watts GRMS (~460Mhz) mobile & base respectfully. This band also has some other benefits and restrictions. The ubiquitous CB1 "hugs the earth" and therefore travels the farthest. The down side is it requires a very large antenna, is very prone to skip and other interference as can be seen I the number of times a day BNI has to change the channel. Additionally, radios both mobile and handheld are not generally designed for headsets and may suffer from a lack of ruggedness. Because of the low frequency, they are also the most susceptible to engine [electrical] noise making them not so practical for a race car. However, with work it could be done. CB2 or MURS is a VHF band that can use just about any commercial or surplus VHF radio. We used military/law enforcement surplus radios for a few years and reprogramed them to the MURS channels in hopes we would have the range of the CB but with the privacy of little used spectrum. Unfortunately this experiment did not work well. They were fine around the starting line, but would only carry a couple of miles. Ultimately the issue with our CB2 setup was lack of proper antennas. Again like CB1, the CB2 VHF band is a very long wave length and requires a reasonably long antenna to work well. Since this is not practical on handhelds or race cars, and we loss most of our signal in the car do to distance between the antenna and the lower powered radio (5w), we gave up on this band. FRS/GMRS is the newest of the bands to be used. Many people use the FRS radios and they will work for sometimes up to a mile. Since FRS radios must have permanently fixed antennas and are limited in wattage to 1/2 watt, they are great for the starting line or at a theme park, but not so practical for bouncing the full length of the course. This leaves GMRS. GMRS is FRS on steroids. It is intended for family's to talk via handhelds, mobiles and base stations at reasonable distances - just like the business bands. Radios can have detachable antennas so you can have a high gain antenna on your vehicle roof, transmission power of up to 50 watts for vehicles and base stations and most importantly, repeaters are allowed just like business band. Last year we noticed that there were many teams running GMRS - the most traffic I had heard on this band in one place ever. Without the repeater, we carried about half the course with our radios. This year well will have a GMRS repeater in the center of the pits and anyone using our pair of frequencies should be able to carry the course. I should note that this band dose require a FCC license for GMRS at about $85 which is good for 5 years. Radios are available new or surplus at reasonable costs. I have rambled on to long for sure... John 569 -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Larry Mayfield Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:46 AM To: land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Many times when I am ou watchng cars and not in line waiting my turn, I hear the tow crew come on the CB line with comments like the driver reports he lost the motor or blew a tire or some other disaster in the run downrange. My question is: How does the driver talk to the crew in the tow truck? I can see big utility in having an in car comm system to notify the tow that something is amiss but I have never looked to see what could and can be used. I can also see where a peer to peer ad hoc network on the salt might also be helpful for data gathering and communication as well. So, I'd like to hear from any and all about their systems in car and in pit and tow that they might have. I think I would like to invest in one also if I don't have to rob the main Chinese bank (ours don't have any money, lol)... Comments? Thoughts? mayf -- ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/lsrvette at yahoo.com From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jan 18 20:25:07 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:25:07 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <9C962660201641F18D5F4C59FD8FACAE@yourat5qgaac3z> References: <4F16E92A.6090702@mayfco.com> <9C962660201641F18D5F4C59FD8FACAE@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: <4F178D13.3070600@mayfco.com> I guess I cold have been a bit clearer. As usual, I am as dense and mud. What I was/am looking for is a hands free system. A cell phone with blue tooth wold work if I can get an ear piece and boom mike that I can put in my helmet. Next is maybe a hands free telecomm system via a peer to peer web based system. That would perhaps also permit some data transfer capability where data could be put directly into an excel table. Most N speed systems with range extenders should be able to cover plus and minus three miles if the antenna is in the pits somewhere. Maybe a VOIP tele system on each end of the system: car and tow? Or something different. Data would require an antenna and the in pit host computer would need to be able to log onto the in car data system. Just exploring possibilities here on the data system. mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/18/2012 10:51 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > www.compcomm.biz is a good source for World of Speed radios and in-car > communication associated with Bonneville racing. Jim Russell is the > contact. > > I have tried cell phones in the past and that could be refined. Could > also put a hand held CB somewhere in the racecar for "after run" comm. > Anything you might use would be affected by magneto interference. I > would think filtering would be necessary. And then there is "dragging > along" an antenna. > > Data telemetry would really be a good addition for me. > > Skip > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Mayfield" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 07:45 > Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > > >> Many times when I am ou watchng cars and not in line waiting my turn, I >> hear the tow crew come on the CB line with comments like the driver >> reports he lost the motor or blew a tire or some other disaster in the >> run downrange. My question is: How does the driver talk to the crew in >> the tow truck? I can see big utility in having an in car comm system to >> notify the tow that something is amiss but I have never looked to see >> what could and can be used. I can also see where a peer to peer ad hoc >> network on the salt might also be helpful for data gathering and >> communication as well. >> >> So, I'd like to hear from any and all about their systems in car and in >> pit and tow that they might have. I think I would like to invest in one >> also if I don't have to rob the main Chinese bank (ours don't have any >> money, lol)... >> >> Comments? Thoughts? >> >> mayf >> >> -- >> ______________________________ >> drmayf >> Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. >> 204.913 mph flying mile >> 210.779 mph exit speed >> _______________________________________________ >> Land-speed at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/saltrat at pahrump.com From neil at dbelltech.com Fri Jan 13 08:34:18 2012 From: neil at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:34:18 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] E-maill address Message-ID: Recently my e-mail address was corrupted somehow and there was an extra "L" in "neil" in neil at dbelltech.com I think I've corrected that now. I'm sorry if you've sent me a reply and have not heard anything or have received an "undeliverable" notice. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ From wester6935 at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 14:43:53 2012 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:43:53 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: How old guys park cars at The Villages References: <20120104.132725.9788.3.johnashby4@juno.com> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: John Ashby > Subject: Fw: FW: How old guys park cars at The Villages > Date: January 4, 2012 1:27:24 PM MST From dahlgren536 at comcast.net Thu Jan 19 11:22:20 2012 From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <41D0FF1117284ADF9452B5D3FA6513F6@DaveSatellite> Unsealed electronics never designed to run in the environment installed sloppy along with lousy amateur wiring practices take care of 99.99999 I have had zero wiring failures from 1991 to 2007 on wiring I did unless the end user 'worked on it' and have not been there since. You need to think in aircraft quality work due to the chemically corrosive environment. Above all no exposed bare copper or steel and die electric grease is your best start then move on to fully sealed connectors and heat shrink boots that are sealed with glue after that think a covering like Raychem DR-25 then all electronics sealed with either o-rings or fully potted with proper materials. There is zero science involved other than an installer just not following proper harnessing practices. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Mayfield" To: Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications >I have not been in the land speed activity very long, but a recurring > theme does seem evident. And that is electrical stuff seems to > malfunction or misbehave when out on the salt. > > So, perhaps a side lobe to the communication question can be explored: > "What the heck is going on?" > > I am sure theories and hypotheses abound, but is there evidence of > actuality? I.e., data? I know I have some thoughts but no real > theories or even a hypothesis that can be fully explored. I can make > some assumptions, however. Like he salt is damp and salty damp stuff is > electrically conductive. That electrics, whether radio, Dc or ac, > generate electromagnetic fields. That a moving electric or magnetic > field with a conductor generates amps in the conductor in this case, > the salt pan. Weak, for sure, but then radio signals are not very > bright either. So, could the lack of good communication be attributed to > the fields generated by a moving electromagnetic field over a conductive > sheet of damp salt? And would the current generated mimic the shape of > the communication signal to the point where interference occurs? How to > easily test? Or how to shield? > > smart guys, here is your chance to step right up and make a lasting > contribution to the field of moving radio communications on a wet salt > pan. If it matters, lol... > > mayf From 23.weldon at comcast.net Thu Jan 19 11:30:48 2012 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:30:48 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <0F283D6697ED49C88CB4489BE5A5135A@edc2750afa5a84> Mayf - We've successfully used radio communications in ships at sea for a century. Sea water is just as conductive for all practical purposes as salt brine. I think the real issue is that salt corrodes electrical connections and also it is readily transported in microscopic form through the air. Once landed on a surface the property of sodium chloride to attract water from the air, especially in the cool of the morning when relative humidity is high starts the electrical mischief. Navy and merchant marine radiomen have had a long time to figure out how to deal with that. And given the criticality of radio communications at sea they no doubt pay serious attention to what has been learned. Ditto the SCTA/BNI communications and computer team with respect to their stewardship of Bonneville operations. One could hypothesize that the regularity of bumps in the salt surface or the tendency of car chassis/suspension at speed to move at constant frequency could when combined with electromagnetic induction effects some interference. Seems a stretch to me. But I hasten to add that I'm a mechanical guy, not a "sparky". Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Mayfield" To: Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications >I have not been in the land speed activity very long, but a recurring > theme does seem evident. And that is electrical stuff seems to > malfunction or misbehave when out on the salt. > So, perhaps a side lobe to the communication question can be explored: > "What the heck is going on?" ............. So, could the lack of good communication be attributed to > the fields generated by a moving electromagnetic field over a conductive > sheet of damp salt? And would the current generated mimic the shape of > the communication signal to the point where interference occurs? How to > easily test? Or how to shield? From saltrat at pahrump.com Thu Jan 19 11:46:49 2012 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:46:49 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> How about using the WIFI that Jon (I think) has in the salt plan for next year and communicate that way. I have a fairly good (20 db) WIFI antenna on my RV that has about a 3 mile range with little or no interference. It is really useful at RV parks with limited/no connectivity. I wonder how it would work if positioned mid course. Could transmit data, video and voice? How to set it up?????? Skip Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications >I have not been in the land speed activity very long, but a recurring > theme does seem evident. And that is electrical stuff seems to > malfunction or misbehave when out on the salt. > > So, perhaps a side lobe to the communication question can be explored: > "What the heck is going on?" > > I am sure theories and hypotheses abound, but is there evidence of > actuality? I.e., data? I know I have some thoughts but no real > theories or even a hypothesis that can be fully explored. I can make > some assumptions, however. Like he salt is damp and salty damp stuff is > electrically conductive. That electrics, whether radio, Dc or ac, > generate electromagnetic fields. That a moving electric or magnetic > field with a conductor generates amps in the conductor in this case, > the salt pan. Weak, for sure, but then radio signals are not very > bright either. So, could the lack of good communication be attributed to > the fields generated by a moving electromagnetic field over a conductive > sheet of damp salt? And would the current generated mimic the shape of > the communication signal to the point where interference occurs? How to > easily test? Or how to shield? > > smart guys, here is your chance to step right up and make a lasting > contribution to the field of moving radio communications on a wet salt > pan. If it matters, lol... > > mayf From dahlgren536 at comcast.net Thu Jan 19 12:17:37 2012 From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:17:37 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: Possibly a first blush test would be to set up the laptop or whatever is going to transmit in the car start the engine and see if still connected.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > How about using the WIFI that Jon (I think) has in the salt plan for next > year and communicate that way. I have a fairly good (20 db) WIFI antenna > on my RV that has about a 3 mile range with little or no interference. It > is really useful at RV parks with limited/no connectivity. I wonder how it > would work if positioned mid course. Could transmit data, video and voice? > > How to set it up?????? > > Skip > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > > >>I have not been in the land speed activity very long, but a recurring >> theme does seem evident. And that is electrical stuff seems to >> malfunction or misbehave when out on the salt. >> >> So, perhaps a side lobe to the communication question can be explored: >> "What the heck is going on?" >> >> I am sure theories and hypotheses abound, but is there evidence of >> actuality? I.e., data? I know I have some thoughts but no real >> theories or even a hypothesis that can be fully explored. I can make >> some assumptions, however. Like he salt is damp and salty damp stuff is >> electrically conductive. That electrics, whether radio, Dc or ac, >> generate electromagnetic fields. That a moving electric or magnetic >> field with a conductor generates amps in the conductor in this case, >> the salt pan. Weak, for sure, but then radio signals are not very >> bright either. So, could the lack of good communication be attributed to >> the fields generated by a moving electromagnetic field over a conductive >> sheet of damp salt? And would the current generated mimic the shape of >> the communication signal to the point where interference occurs? How to >> easily test? Or how to shield? >> >> smart guys, here is your chance to step right up and make a lasting >> contribution to the field of moving radio communications on a wet salt >> pan. If it matters, lol... >> >> mayf > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/dahlgren536 at comcast.net From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Thu Jan 19 12:22:56 2012 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:22:56 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: <8BF033A1-FC6B-4DBE-AA59-C43FAB4203B6@nancyandjon.org> Skip (and the rest of youse guys): The way I connect to the internet at the salt IS NOT wi-fi -- just for the sake of this discussion. Rather it uses a bit of hardware and software and connects to the internet through the stream of information on the cell phone network (basically, everywhere depending on who your carriers is. Verizon covers 100% of the salt flats). I know that we've had zero issues with it losing signal when driving down the road, for instance. Yes, it loses signal when we go through a tunnel, but not through railroad overpasses or highway overheads, etc. There aren't too many tunnels on the salt flats surface, so that shouldn't be a problem. The data rate is fairly good -- in the range of 750kb - 1Mb/second. Photos are generally the largest files I send and receive - and they take a handful of seconds, not minutes. So - you could expect to have relatively fast response time for sending data. The thingie that connects to the internet is about thumb-size and plugs into a USB port. At the beginning of a session we must go through a startup routine, but that's 20 seconds or so, and it stays hooked up for as long as 12 hours at a time. As for conversations with a driver -- well, I've never used Skype, but that's about the thing that Mayf wants, right -- two way voice communications and also some data. That'd all go through the little internet thingie, for sure. I could show it to you -- but will have to get a photo of it and post it someplace other than here. Let me know if you're interested in seeing the "aircard", as we call it. Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim On Jan 19, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > How about using the WIFI that Jon (I think) has in the salt plan for next year and communicate that way. I have a fairly good (20 db) WIFI antenna on my RV that has about a 3 mile range with little or no interference. It is really useful at RV parks with limited/no connectivity. I wonder how it would work if positioned mid course. Could transmit data, video and voice? > > How to set it up?????? From mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Thu Jan 19 12:25:41 2012 From: mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (Meierle, Michael D (Mike)) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:25:41 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: WiFi doesn't work at over 70 MPH. Had a Train application for downloading the manifest as it rolled into a yard using WiFi, The Doppler changes to the frequency as the train approaches a access point, passes it, and then goes away from it, is too much variation over a short time to accurately recover the data. Sitting still, It works fine. MIKE MEIERLE SR. SYSTEMS ENGINEER ALCATEL-LUCENT 7751 Windsor Drive Dublin, Ohio 43016 (614) 284-6229 mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:47 PM To: drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications How about using the WIFI that Jon (I think) has in the salt plan for next year and communicate that way. I have a fairly good (20 db) WIFI antenna on my RV that has about a 3 mile range with little or no interference. It is really useful at RV parks with limited/no connectivity. I wonder how it would work if positioned mid course. Could transmit data, video and voice? How to set it up?????? Skip From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jan 19 13:15:46 2012 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:46 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> Message-ID: <4F1879F2.5020205@mayfco.com> Mike, come on, now, Ya'll are pullin' my leg, aint ya? My N router runs it's carrier at either 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz (maybe it is 5.8 GHz) So the lambda for the frequency (I think that is the tern for length of the wave) would be at 2.4 GHZ is 0.40982 ft. At 70 mph the distance in on elambda is 0.000000004 ft. Add that to the base lambda to see the frequency shift or doppler effect and the new wave length in ft is 0.40982004 ft. The frequency shift is so small that it barely moves, even out to at least 4 decimal places. Now, I gotta be honest. I really do not know what I am doing here with this, so have you calculated the actual doppler shift to see how much of a change it really is? Was anything else going on at the same time?Or is it like usual, I have my head up my anal orifice, lol... mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/19/2012 11:25 AM, Meierle, Michael D (Mike) wrote: > WiFi doesn't work at over 70 MPH. > > Had a Train application for downloading the manifest as it rolled into a yard using WiFi, The Doppler changes to the frequency as the train approaches a access point, passes it, and then goes away from it, is too much variation over a short time to accurately recover the data. > > Sitting still, It works fine. > > MIKE MEIERLE > SR. SYSTEMS ENGINEER > ALCATEL-LUCENT > 7751 Windsor Drive > Dublin, Ohio 43016 > (614) 284-6229 > mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:47 PM > To: drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > > How about using the WIFI that Jon (I think) has in the salt plan for next > year and communicate that way. I have a fairly good (20 db) WIFI antenna on > my RV that has about a 3 mile range with little or no interference. It is > really useful at RV parks with limited/no connectivity. I wonder how it > would work if positioned mid course. Could transmit data, video and voice? > > How to set it up?????? > > Skip From neil at dbelltech.com Thu Jan 19 13:53:51 2012 From: neil at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:53:51 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: <41D0FF1117284ADF9452B5D3FA6513F6@DaveSatellite> References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> <41D0FF1117284ADF9452B5D3FA6513F6@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: Dave; Amen, bro! Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dave Dahlgren" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:22 AM To: ; Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > Unsealed electronics never designed to run in the environment installed > sloppy along with lousy amateur wiring practices take care of 99.99999 I > have had zero wiring failures from 1991 to 2007 on wiring I did unless the > end user 'worked on it' and have not been there since. You need to think > in aircraft quality work due to the chemically corrosive environment. > Above all no exposed bare copper or steel and die electric grease is your > best start then move on to fully sealed connectors and heat shrink boots > that are sealed with glue after that think a covering like Raychem DR-25 > then all electronics sealed with either o-rings or fully potted with > proper materials. There is zero science involved other than an installer > just not following proper harnessing practices. > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Mayfield" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > > >>I have not been in the land speed activity very long, but a recurring >> theme does seem evident. And that is electrical stuff seems to >> malfunction or misbehave when out on the salt. >> >> So, perhaps a side lobe to the communication question can be explored: >> "What the heck is going on?" >> >> I am sure theories and hypotheses abound, but is there evidence of >> actuality? I.e., data? I know I have some thoughts but no real >> theories or even a hypothesis that can be fully explored. I can make >> some assumptions, however. Like he salt is damp and salty damp stuff is >> electrically conductive. That electrics, whether radio, Dc or ac, >> generate electromagnetic fields. That a moving electric or magnetic >> field with a conductor generates amps in the conductor in this case, >> the salt pan. Weak, for sure, but then radio signals are not very >> bright either. So, could the lack of good communication be attributed to >> the fields generated by a moving electromagnetic field over a conductive >> sheet of damp salt? And would the current generated mimic the shape of >> the communication signal to the point where interference occurs? How to >> easily test? Or how to shield? >> >> smart guys, here is your chance to step right up and make a lasting >> contribution to the field of moving radio communications on a wet salt >> pan. If it matters, lol... >> >> mayf > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com From saltrat at pahrump.com Thu Jan 19 16:51:05 2012 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:51:05 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications References: <4F1846CC.30403@mayfco.com> <456E5A9C955F4B4C8B1766C86486B1F1@yourat5qgaac3z> <8BF033A1-FC6B-4DBE-AA59-C43FAB4203B6@nancyandjon.org> Message-ID: Thanks Jon, I googled aircard and it showed me what it is. Sorry about misrepresenting you. I'm more of a pots and pans guy........... Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Wennerberg" To: "Skip Higginbotham" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:22 Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Skip (and the rest of youse guys): The way I connect to the internet at the salt IS NOT wi-fi -- just for the sake of this discussion. Rather it uses a bit of hardware and software and connects to the internet through the stream of information on the cell phone network (basically, everywhere depending on who your carriers is. Verizon covers 100% of the salt flats). I know that we've had zero issues with it losing signal when driving down the road, for instance. Yes, it loses signal when we go through a tunnel, but not through railroad overpasses or highway overheads, etc. There aren't too many tunnels on the salt flats surface, so that shouldn't be a problem. The data rate is fairly good -- in the range of 750kb - 1Mb/second. Photos are generally the largest files I send and receive - and they take a handful of seconds, not minutes. So - you could expect to have relatively fast response time for sending data. The thingie that connects to the internet is about thumb-size and plugs into a USB port. At the beginning of a session we must go through a startup routine, but that's 20 seconds or so, and it stays hooked up for as long as 12 hours at a time. As for conversations with a driver -- well, I've never used Skype, but that's about the thing that Mayf wants, right -- two way voice communications and also some data. That'd all go through the little internet thingie, for sure. I could show it to you -- but will have to get a photo of it and post it someplace other than here. Let me know if you're interested in seeing the "aircard", as we call it. Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim From ed at vetteracing.com Thu Jan 19 20:46:19 2012 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:46:19 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Message-ID: And I always thought doppler shift was Burkland going past you at 450 MPH............... Ed V -----Original Message----- From: Larry Mayfield [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 01:15 PM To: 'Meierle, Michael D (Mike)' Cc: land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications Mike, come on, now, Ya'll are pullin' my leg, aint ya? My N router runs it's carrier at either 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz (maybe it is 5.8 GHz) So the lambda for the frequency (I think that is the tern for length of the wave) would be at 2.4 GHZ is 0.40982 ft. At 70 mph the distance in on elambda is 0.000000004 ft. Add that to the base lambda to see the frequency shift or doppler effect and the new wave length in ft is 0.40982004 ft. The frequency shift is so small that it barely moves, even out to at least 4 decimal places. Now, I gotta be honest. I really do not know what I am doing here with this, so have you calculated the actual doppler shift to see how much of a change it really is? Was anything else going on at the same time?Or is it like usual, I have my head up my anal orifice, lol... mayf ______________________________ drmayf Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period. 204.913 mph flying mile 210.779 mph exit speed On 1/19/2012 11:25 AM, Meierle, Michael D (Mike) wrote: > WiFi doesn't work at over 70 MPH. > > Had a Train application for downloading the manifest as it rolled into a yard using WiFi, The Doppler changes to the frequency as the train approaches a access point, passes it, and then goes away from it, is too much variation over a short time to accurately recover the data. > > Sitting still, It works fine. > > MIKE MEIERLE > SR. SYSTEMS ENGINEER > ALCATEL-LUCENT > 7751 Windsor Drive > Dublin, Ohio 43016 > (614) 284-6229 > mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:47 PM > To: drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications > > How about using the WIFI that Jon (I think) has in the salt plan for next > year and communicate that way. I have a fairly good (20 db) WIFI antenna on > my RV that has about a 3 mile range with little or no interference. It is > really useful at RV parks with limited/no connectivity. I wonder how it > would work if positioned mid course. Could transmit data, video and voice? > > How to set it up?????? > > Skip _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/ed at vetteracing.com From saltfever at comcast.net Thu Jan 19 23:08:15 2012 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:08:15 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] IN Car Communications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005a01ccd739$e61c3de0$b254b9a0$@net> Nice post John, If that is considered rambling then I'll vote for more of it. Thanx, Kirk From: "John Staiger" (Serious edit) . . . Of the applicable public spectrum: -CB1 - HF range(~27 Mhz) @ ~ 5 watts pr/handheld -MURS or CB2 - VHF range @ ~ 5watts (~151 Mhz range) pr/handheld -FRS/GMRS - UHF range @ either .5 watt (FRS) or 5 watts handheld/50 watts GRMS (~460Mhz) mobile & base respectfully. I have rambled on to long for sure... -John, 569