From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Nov  1 11:36:06 2011
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 11:36:06 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Hot Rod magazine
In-Reply-To: <SNT105-DS8E00D159A30D2C7F127F8ACEC0@phx.gbl>
References: <D773E57C-8355-4120-B240-10F8B5248FD5@columbus.rr.com>
	<D5C266472AC84BF88F8C61D67D75945C@GlenPC>
	<SNT105-DS8E00D159A30D2C7F127F8ACEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EB03C16.6080007@mayfco.com>

I have tried a few times to tell him I appreciate his efforts but since 
I don't run in his circle of friends  I usually get a blank stare and he 
wanders off.

mayf

______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed


On 10/25/2011 2:01 AM, Keith Turk wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:44 PM
> To: "LSR LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>; "Don McMeekin" 
> <landspeed at columbus.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hot Rod magazine
>
> David has been a great friend and racing partner....  Tonya and I owe 
> him a lot ...    I can't even begin to tell you how much we've enjoyed 
> the partnership...  It's not just Bonneville but Drag week and other 
> events as well...
>
> Lucky us...
>
> K
>
>
>>
>
> When we lost Gray" OL DAD" Baskerville a few years ago we all wondered 
> where
>> Hot Rod mag and his other inputs would go. Dave came along and 
>> stepped up to the HRM and has been a dedicated asset to the mag. and 
>> LSR followers. He is a racer that has his heart into LSR. We need to 
>> thank him every time we see him. I do.
>>
>> Glen
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don McMeekin" 
>> <landspeed at columbus.rr.com>
>> To: "LSR LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:18 PM
>> Subject: [Land-speed] Hot Rod magazine
>>
>>
>>> Just got my Hot Rod magazine and wanted to take a minute to thank the
>>> staff (read David Freiburger) for the excellent B-Ville coverage.
>>> Living in Ohio during my formative years, my knowledge of LSR was
>>> completely dependent on what I was able to read in Hot Rod magazine,
>>> period! I could hardly wait for the "Bonneville" issue to hit the
>>> newsstand to see what happened at Speed Week. Well some things don't
>>> change a whole lot. I still read Hot Rod and it's better than ever,
>>> thanks to Mr. Freiburger.
>>>
>>> As a group, we need to do what we can to support those who take a
>>> special interest in LSR, and make sure that they know how much we
>>> appreciate their efforts.
>>>
>>>           Don
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/drmayf at mayfco.com

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Fri Nov  4 11:28:31 2011
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:28:31 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
Message-ID: <5B4215358A9640D695D8C5143172D78E@edc2750afa5a84>

This winter is looking good for accomplishment on my long term car building
project.  And possibly producing a change in direction.  So I'd like to pick
some experienced brains on the above subject.
What's the practical minimum belly pan clearance at both Bonneville and El
Mirage?
To keep this from being a too broad a question let's assume:
1. Approx. 120" wb and minimal overhang on each end.
2. Belly pan material .050" aluminum probably 1/2 hard temper (as opposed to
1.4" steel armor plate)
3. Tow to line and back to the pits (no special trailers but possibly a
temporary frame lifting hitch on the tow vehicle.)
4. Reasonable accommodations in the trailer setup for loading and unloading
(in other words the trailer will be set up for whatever the car requires which
sounds to me like open in the middle between the ramps)
5.  Oh yeah; 27T body modified roadster with moderate HP engine.  I'm figuring
on the pan being flat against the bottom of the frame back to the rear axle
with only jacking points exposed.
I'd sure appreciate comments from those of you who have been there and done
that and most importantly have a pretty good memory of what your actual
measurements were and what kinds of course/return road surface hazards gave
you trouble.
Sure would appreciate any wisdom you guys can offer...........Ed Weldon

From neill at dbelltech.com  Fri Nov  4 12:30:11 2011
From: neill at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:30:11 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
In-Reply-To: <5B4215358A9640D695D8C5143172D78E@edc2750afa5a84>
References: <5B4215358A9640D695D8C5143172D78E@edc2750afa5a84>
Message-ID: <500C0CC263D3439AB9589F0A37D82A94@tiger>

Ed;

You're probably going to need 2.5' to 3" ride height in the front and about 
one inch higher at the rear. Don't forget to reinforce the pan-- there will 
be LOTS of aerodynamic pressure pulling it down. I think that the HRM Camaro 
had theirs come loose and it was scooping up salt as it was being towed back 
down the return road. Keith or David can confirm or deny this. :)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

--------------------------------------------------
From: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:28 AM
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance

> This winter is looking good for accomplishment on my long term car 
> building
> project.  And possibly producing a change in direction.  So I'd like to 
> pick
> some experienced brains on the above subject.
> What's the practical minimum belly pan clearance at both Bonneville and El
> Mirage?
> To keep this from being a too broad a question let's assume:
> 1. Approx. 120" wb and minimal overhang on each end.
> 2. Belly pan material .050" aluminum probably 1/2 hard temper (as opposed 
> to
> 1.4" steel armor plate)
> 3. Tow to line and back to the pits (no special trailers but possibly a
> temporary frame lifting hitch on the tow vehicle.)
> 4. Reasonable accommodations in the trailer setup for loading and 
> unloading
> (in other words the trailer will be set up for whatever the car requires 
> which
> sounds to me like open in the middle between the ramps)
> 5.  Oh yeah; 27T body modified roadster with moderate HP engine.  I'm 
> figuring
> on the pan being flat against the bottom of the frame back to the rear 
> axle
> with only jacking points exposed.
> I'd sure appreciate comments from those of you who have been there and 
> done
> that and most importantly have a pretty good memory of what your actual
> measurements were and what kinds of course/return road surface hazards 
> gave
> you trouble.
> Sure would appreciate any wisdom you guys can offer...........Ed Weldon

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Fri Nov  4 13:27:32 2011
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:27:32 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
References: <5B4215358A9640D695D8C5143172D78E@edc2750afa5a84>
	<500C0CC263D3439AB9589F0A37D82A94@tiger>
Message-ID: <16580F92131B42ABA2A095B34C008CFC@edc2750afa5a84>

Thanks, Neil -- I'd like to get closer than that if I can but I'm not 
hopeful.  My belief is that every inch of ride height in that low range is 
that times the body width increase in effective frontal area.
There is a small school of thought relative to roadsters that says raising 
the body off the ground begins to pay off at some point; maybe 8 to 10 
inches.  That's a direction I don't want to go in for a number of reasons.
Good tip on pan reinforcement.  In addition to attachment points around the 
perimeter several dimples in the middle of the pan for rivet heads on 
attachments of inside brackets to frame crossmembers should take care of 
that issue.  (Note to self:  Mark the related fasteners and brackets with 
bright red paint)
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neil Albaugh" <neill at dbelltech.com>
To: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
> Ed; You're probably going to need 2.5' to 3" ride height in the front and 
> about one inch higher at the rear. Don't forget to reinforce the pan--  
> there will be LOTS of aerodynamic pressure pulling it down....> Regards, 
> Neil  Tucson, AZ

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Fri Nov  4 16:05:24 2011
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:05:24 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
In-Reply-To: <16580F92131B42ABA2A095B34C008CFC@edc2750afa5a84>
References: <5B4215358A9640D695D8C5143172D78E@edc2750afa5a84><500C0CC263D3439AB9589F0A37D82A94@tiger>
	<16580F92131B42ABA2A095B34C008CFC@edc2750afa5a84>
Message-ID: <0558CC348F0140E680EECAC4DEF322F0@GlenPC>

I agree with Neil.8 to 10 inches of height could cause lift and even blow 
over conditions. Going into a spin and getting backwards it would probably 
get airborne.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: "Neil Albaugh" <neil at dbelltech.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance


> Thanks, Neil -- I'd like to get closer than that if I can but I'm not 
> hopeful.  My belief is that every inch of ride height in that low range is 
> that times the body width increase in effective frontal area.
> There is a small school of thought relative to roadsters that says raising 
> the body off the ground begins to pay off at some point; maybe 8 to 10 
> inches.  That's a direction I don't want to go in for a number of reasons.
> Good tip on pan reinforcement.  In addition to attachment points around 
> the perimeter several dimples in the middle of the pan for rivet heads on 
> attachments of inside brackets to frame crossmembers should take care of 
> that issue.  (Note to self:  Mark the related fasteners and brackets with 
> bright red paint)
> Ed Weldon
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Neil Albaugh" <neill at dbelltech.com>
> To: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
>> Ed; You're probably going to need 2.5' to 3" ride height in the front and 
>> about one inch higher at the rear. Don't forget to reinforce the pan--  
>> there will be LOTS of aerodynamic pressure pulling it down....> Regards, 
>> Neil  Tucson, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/speedtimer at beyondbb.com 

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Fri Nov  4 17:58:24 2011
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:58:24 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
References: <5B4215358A9640D695D8C5143172D78E@edc2750afa5a84><500C0CC263D3439AB9589F0A37D82A94@tiger>
	<16580F92131B42ABA2A095B34C008CFC@edc2750afa5a84>
	<0558CC348F0140E680EECAC4DEF322F0@GlenPC>
Message-ID: <02D633EEE0AE41F6BDF12F5B35348FD4@edc2750afa5a84>

Glen - I greatly appreciate your interest in my question.
I wasn't considering a high stance on a modified roadster although we have 
at least one such doing pretty well in current competition.  I understand 
the line of thinking behind that approach.
But it's not for me.  Primary reason is the one you cited, safety.  I 
watched Doug earn his spin pin in the Gold-digger 20 years ago.  That's 
something I don't need..
 Personally I believe the sharp nose modified roadster is the stablest most 
spin resistant configuration of all the body styles in landspeed racing.  I 
want to go as low as I can.  I plan a suspension on the rear; but it'll be a 
rough ride with limited travel.  My fat posterior has plenty of cushioning; 
so that doesn't worry me.
I do like Tom Bryant's suggestion about the sacrificial skirt in the front. 
I wonder how far around the body a skirt has to go to be effective.  The 
doorslammer guys just put air dams on the front under the bumper area.  But 
the modified roadster has a wedge shape with the 27T body sides at the 
bottom blending into parallel with the centerline somewhere around the rear 
side of the door location.  Need some research here.
I have a feeling that a sacrificial shirt made of roughly 3/16 ABS plastic 
sheet would have the right combination of strength and ability to wear 
without shattering.
Tom - You or anyone else have specific experience to share?
Thanks, everyone for taking the time to share your ideas with me.....Ed 
Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance


>I agree with Neil.8 to 10 inches of height could cause lift and even blow 
>over conditions. Going into a spin and getting backwards it would probably 
>get airborne.

 ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
>> Thanks, Neil -- I'd like to get closer than that if I can but I'm not 
>> hopeful.  My belief is that every inch of ride height in that low range 
>> is that times the body width increase in effective frontal area.
>> There is a small school of thought relative to roadsters that says 
>> raising the body off the ground begins to pay off at some point; maybe 8 
>> to 10 inches.  That's a direction I don't want to go in for a number of 
>> reasons.

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  4 20:33:14 2011
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:33:14 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance
References: <5B4215358A9640D695D8C5143172D78E@edc2750afa5a84>
Message-ID: <8172A29BA0E84C81A23BE9521354C10A@mydf7618c59bbf>

Pack of Lucky Strikes laying flat works for me

Subject: [Land-speed] Belly pan minimum height or clearance


> Sure would appreciate any wisdom you guys can offer...........Ed Weldon
> _______________________________________________

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Nov 14 19:39:09 2011
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:39:09 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] OT: Bel lhousing wanted
Message-ID: <4EC1D0CD.1080501@mayfco.com>

I am building up a 260 motor for bragging rights in the Sunbeam Tiger 
world.  I plan on fabricating a run stand  for break in and EFI sorting 
initially. But, I need something to hold the rear of the block up and 
hold the starter. On a ford that is the bell housing.  And I am no 
longer strong enough to use a rope starter on something that big, lol.  
I really would like to have a 5 bolt Ford Bell housing that fits a C4 
automatic tranny. Since I have a C4 but with a 6 bolt bell housing,  I 
could if I wanted, stuff that trans combo into the Orange car, my Tiger 
since 1967.  So, if any of ya wander around junk yards in your neck of 
the woods, could you ask if they might have such a beast and let me know 
if they do? While I don't mind buying one, the one on ebay righ tnow is 
a bit pricey at 500 bucks.  And it needs to fit teh small block ford: 
221, 260 or early 289 with the 5 bolt pattern.  And lastly, cheap is 
really good!

I appreciate ya keeping me in mind when you go "shopping".

mayf

-- 
______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed

From jgmagoo at comcast.net  Thu Nov 17 15:05:47 2011
From: jgmagoo at comcast.net (jgmagoo at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:05:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Land-speed] Ardun Race Motor For Sale
Message-ID: <125186216.89174.1321567547475.JavaMail.root@sz0086a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Subject: Ardun race motor





F.Y.I.



Doug King's Ardun engine is for saleB on ebay.


Ebay number 150700355388

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Nov 23 10:35:21 2011
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:35:21 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
Message-ID: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>

Ford uses a wrist pin diameter of 0.912 inches for the little end of the 
rod/piston.  GM has a wrist pin diameter of 0.927 inches. I see a number 
of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the option of 
using the GM wrist pin diameter.  I don't know if the Ford pin diameter 
is offered as an option for GM stuff though. Don't care, lol...

What's up with that?  Is the GM pin lighter even though it is larger in 
diameter? Stronger for sure but is that the reason?

So, the dumb question is:  "why switch from 0.912 to 0.927 inch diameter 
wrist pins?

Keep it technical please...

mayf

-- 
______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed

From calkins at camspray.com  Wed Nov 23 10:49:20 2011
From: calkins at camspray.com (Justin Calkins)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:49:20 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <NAEOLNAEBLFDDCMCNIKCMENBCNAA.calkins@camspray.com>

mayf,
My guess would be availability of parts for GM engines.  Lower end parts for
the early style hemi offers a Chevy rod option, big block I believe.
Everyone make SBC and BBC parts, so the cost to make those parts are much
lower than other makes.  That's my two cents...

Justin Calkins
Cam Spray - Service Department
520 Brooks Road
Iowa Falls, Iowa 50126
800-648-5011  Ext 1232
calkins at camspray.com
http://www.camspray.com


-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Larry Mayfield
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 11:35 AM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins


Ford uses a wrist pin diameter of 0.912 inches for the little end of the
rod/piston.  GM has a wrist pin diameter of 0.927 inches. I see a number
of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the option of
using the GM wrist pin diameter.  I don't know if the Ford pin diameter
is offered as an option for GM stuff though. Don't care, lol...

What's up with that?  Is the GM pin lighter even though it is larger in
diameter? Stronger for sure but is that the reason?

So, the dumb question is:  "why switch from 0.912 to 0.927 inch diameter
wrist pins?

Keep it technical please...

mayf

--
______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed
_______________________________________________
Land-speed at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/calkins at camspray.com

From dahlgren536 at comcast.net  Wed Nov 23 10:51:36 2011
From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:51:36 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
References: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <BD693A4F22C64022ADE157A602D50300@DaveSatellite>

the GM pin is very readily available and very well developed for both light 
and strong. honing the rods and pistons to the new diameter will not 
sacrifice any real strength for an easier to get much more plentiful part. 
It is a matter of economics lower cost of manufacture to provide a lower 
cost of purchase. The tech term is 'greenbacks' or 'closing the sale'.. 
there is no other science beyond that. Any real quality move is for the very 
few that do not consider Summit and Jegs the last word in racing or use its 
catalog as an encyclopedia.. sigh..
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Mayfield" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:35 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins


> Ford uses a wrist pin diameter of 0.912 inches for the little end of the
> rod/piston.  GM has a wrist pin diameter of 0.927 inches. I see a number
> of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the option of
> using the GM wrist pin diameter.  I don't know if the Ford pin diameter
> is offered as an option for GM stuff though. Don't care, lol...
>
> What's up with that?  Is the GM pin lighter even though it is larger in
> diameter? Stronger for sure but is that the reason?
>
> So, the dumb question is:  "why switch from 0.912 to 0.927 inch diameter
> wrist pins?
>
> Keep it technical please...
>
> mayf 

From neill at dbelltech.com  Wed Nov 23 11:05:55 2011
From: neill at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:05:55 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <NAEOLNAEBLFDDCMCNIKCMENBCNAA.calkins@camspray.com>
References: <NAEOLNAEBLFDDCMCNIKCMENBCNAA.calkins@camspray.com>
Message-ID: <61C3BB74F1604756B96F58714FF02DAD@tiger>

Mayf;

I think that Justin and Dave are right-- Chevy is cheaper and more 
available; more vendors, too.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Justin Calkins" <calkins at camspray.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:49 AM
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins

> mayf,
> My guess would be availability of parts for GM engines.  Lower end parts 
> for
> the early style hemi offers a Chevy rod option, big block I believe.
> Everyone make SBC and BBC parts, so the cost to make those parts are much
> lower than other makes.  That's my two cents...
>
> Justin Calkins
> Cam Spray - Service Department
> 520 Brooks Road
> Iowa Falls, Iowa 50126
> 800-648-5011  Ext 1232
> calkins at camspray.com
> http://www.camspray.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Larry Mayfield
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 11:35 AM
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
>
>
> Ford uses a wrist pin diameter of 0.912 inches for the little end of the
> rod/piston.  GM has a wrist pin diameter of 0.927 inches. I see a number
> of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the option of
> using the GM wrist pin diameter.  I don't know if the Ford pin diameter
> is offered as an option for GM stuff though. Don't care, lol...
>
> What's up with that?  Is the GM pin lighter even though it is larger in
> diameter? Stronger for sure but is that the reason?
>
> So, the dumb question is:  "why switch from 0.912 to 0.927 inch diameter
> wrist pins?
>
> Keep it technical please...
>
> mayf
>
> --
> ______________________________
> drmayf
> Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
> 204.913 mph flying mile
> 210.779 mph exit speed
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/calkins at camspray.com
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com 

From pookie at dslextreme.com  Wed Nov 23 11:37:16 2011
From: pookie at dslextreme.com (pookie @dslextreme.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:37:16 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
References: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvC9qpVK+9B8zi2cDG67GCsfMgOGb1Fren_tTJXcDTSJKYOcg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/23/11, Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com> wrote:
> Ford uses a wrist pin diameter of 0.912 inches for the little end of the
> rod/piston.  GM has a wrist pin diameter of 0.927 inches. I see a number
> of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the option of
> using the GM wrist pin diameter.  I don't know if the Ford pin diameter
> is offered as an option for GM stuff though. Don't care, lol...
>
> What's up with that?  Is the GM pin lighter even though it is larger in
> diameter? Stronger for sure but is that the reason?
>
> So, the dumb question is:  "why switch from 0.912 to 0.927 inch diameter
> wrist pins?
>Hi Dr. Mayf, You might check to see the weight difference between the 2
pins.. Also if you are going to be forced induction or naturally asperated..If
the pistons are off the shelf items for N/A, some times in a blowen
application, piston failure is in the piston pin location..Piston to pin
clearence is also important in either application Mike R.
> Keep it technical please...
>
> mayf
>
> --
> ______________________________
> drmayf
> Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
> 204.913 mph flying mile
> 210.779 mph exit speed
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/pookie at dslextreme.com

From v4gmr at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 23 11:39:56 2011
From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:39:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
References: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <1322073596.87923.YahooMailNeo@web39422.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sort of like my using .990 BBC wrist pins in the Packard instead of .9804
Packard size. Didn't have to rebush the rods, just honed them. Didn't need
special wrist pins, Just bought off the shelf parts. Saved $100 and why not?
________________________________
From: Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To:
"land-speed at autox.team.net" <land-speed at autox.team.net> 
Sent: Wednesday,
November 23, 2011 9:35 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist
pins

Ford uses a wrist pin diameter of 0.912 inches for the little end of the
rod/piston.  GM has a wrist pin diameter of 0.927 inches. I see a number 
of 
Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the option of 
using the
GM wrist pin diameter.  I don't know if the Ford pin diameter 
is offered as
an option for GM stuff though. Don't care, lol...

What's up with that?  Is
the GM pin lighter even though it is larger in 
diameter? Stronger for sure
but is that the reason?

So, the dumb question is:  "why switch from 0.912 to
0.927 inch diameter 
wrist pins?

Keep it technical please...

mayf

--
______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913
mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed
_______________________________________________
Land-speed at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Nov 23 14:26:27 2011
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:26:27 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
References: <4ECD2ED9.6080302@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <4ECD6503.3020608@mayfco.com>

Hey, all youse guys..thanks for the replies!  While some disparage 
Summit, I used them as reference because they sell a lot of aftermarket 
maker's parts.  I surfed for piston wrist pins and wrist pins and found 
tons of them in all shapes and sizes.  I did find a couple made by Ross 
that were side by side comparable, just different diameters. The price 
was exactly the same.  Naturally the slightly smaller diameter is a tad 
lighter, not enough to make a difference in my opinion. Big was 96 
grams, smaller was 94 grams.

I will say that the notion of the 0.927 RM diameter being most prevalent 
is true. By a long way. Still, every maker does have the Ford diameter 
and they run at virtually the same price.   So I don't think 
availability is the full reason.  And the pins no matter the diameter 
come in an almost bewildering array of lengths and materials and 
retention methods.

I asked the original question, not because I have rods with the ford pin 
diameter and whether or not I should go to the larger ones, but because 
I have a set of rods that have that diameter off the shelf.  Since they 
came that way, I was curious as to why since ford pistons come with teh 
0.912 diameter o begin with.  I suppose the very small difference in 
load bearing area in the aluminum piston might be a reason, but,  I 
dunno.  Since I need to have the pistons custom made anyway, I will just 
have them made to fit the 0.927 diameter and will also have the pison 
maker supply the pins as well. That way, they should fit and I know the 
retaining system will work.

Happy Turkey Day!

mayf

______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed


On 11/23/2011 9:35 AM, Larry Mayfield wrote:
> Ford uses a wrist pin diameter of 0.912 inches for the little end of the
> rod/piston.  GM has a wrist pin diameter of 0.927 inches. I see a number
> of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the option of
> using the GM wrist pin diameter.  I don't know if the Ford pin diameter
> is offered as an option for GM stuff though. Don't care, lol...
>
> What's up with that?  Is the GM pin lighter even though it is larger in
> diameter? Stronger for sure but is that the reason?
>
> So, the dumb question is:  "why switch from 0.912 to 0.927 inch diameter
> wrist pins?
>
> Keep it technical please...
>
> mayf

From saltfever at comcast.net  Thu Nov 24 00:04:23 2011
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:04:23 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1322074821.5030.land-speed@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <827782B69BDE4DD39DDE7165D28D5C79@dim8100>

Agree with all of the above but the consumer is not the driver on the pin
diameter substitution. It is (or was) the automotive machine shops. Prior to
the recent crate motor phenomena that has put many machine shops out of
business, the major customers of aftermarket engine parts are automotive
machine shops. They have a significant investment in tooling as wells a
set-up time in the ubiquitous SBC. Having one pin diameter means you can cut
tooling inventory but the biggest savings is setup labor. Setting up the
Sunnen rod hone and/or air gauge for one diameter and leaving it there all
day for the majority of the work is profitable. Since engine balance is
usually part of the machining job the pin weight delta is irrelevant.
Economics is the driver and not performance.

Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com>
I see a number of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the
option of using the GM wrist pin diameter. . . . "why switch from 0.912 to
0.927 inch diameter wrist pins?

From dahlgren536 at comcast.net  Thu Nov 24 00:51:39 2011
From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 02:51:39 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins
In-Reply-To: <827782B69BDE4DD39DDE7165D28D5C79@dim8100>
References: <827782B69BDE4DD39DDE7165D28D5C79@dim8100>
Message-ID: <E8D87892D6C947DCBE169D51444FCB5C@DaveSatellite>

I beg to differ as I have managed engine shops both production and race 
ones. setting the gage for pin bores takes under a minute especially with 
such a small difference in size same goes for the mandrel.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirkwood" <saltfever at comcast.net>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 2:04 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] dumb Question # 4856 - Wrist pins


> Agree with all of the above but the consumer is not the driver on the pin
> diameter substitution. It is (or was) the automotive machine shops. Prior 
> to
> the recent crate motor phenomena that has put many machine shops out of
> business, the major customers of aftermarket engine parts are automotive
> machine shops. They have a significant investment in tooling as wells a
> set-up time in the ubiquitous SBC. Having one pin diameter means you can 
> cut
> tooling inventory but the biggest savings is setup labor. Setting up the
> Sunnen rod hone and/or air gauge for one diameter and leaving it there all
> day for the majority of the work is profitable. Since engine balance is
> usually part of the machining job the pin weight delta is irrelevant.
> Economics is the driver and not performance.
>
> Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com>
> I see a number of  Ford products whether pistons or  rods offered with the
> option of using the GM wrist pin diameter. . . . "why switch from 0.912 to
> 0.927 inch diameter wrist pins?

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Thu Nov 24 07:41:11 2011
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:41:11 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Happy Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <4CD0C9C5-C4BD-4F06-A253-73B983F08C25@comcast.net>

I will head back to Utah in the morning after spending Thanksgiving near to
where the first one reportedly took place.  Boston is sunny, clear and cold
this morning.  This time tomorrow I'll be on a flight back home.  Hopefully
the reason for this rush trip has settled enough that my wife can handle it.
I regret not being able to get down to say hello to Dave Dahlgren.  By my
calculations he is closer than the salt flats are from my home.  There'll be
another trip and maybe I'll trust my driving on these paved cow paths a little
more by then.

I'm grateful for family!  For the three grandkids who have occupied my days
since we arrived.  They are fun to be around and much too far from convenient
access from my home.  I can comfortably drive to their schools for after
school pick up.  Finding more direct routes really helps.  I'm glad they are
doing so well.  My grandson is great.  Thankfully his birth, ten weeks early
last June, hasn't prevented him from thriving now.

My friends from the Bonneville community continue to do things that make me
proud and happy to be involved with that select group.  What an impressive
year of record times!  Thinking back over the events is a reminder of
satisfactions and frustrations that were pretty much accepted as part of the
experience.  How nice to not have the attitude of entitlement on the salt that
we are seeing nightly on the TV news.  Congratulations to all of you.  I can
hardly wait to see you all on the salt next year!  With my easing back on my
salt responsibilities I hope to be able to see more of you during the events.

May I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving and a very Merry Christmas!

Wes

From neill at dbelltech.com  Thu Nov 24 09:11:32 2011
From: neill at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:11:32 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Happy Thanksgiving!
In-Reply-To: <4CD0C9C5-C4BD-4F06-A253-73B983F08C25@comcast.net>
References: <4CD0C9C5-C4BD-4F06-A253-73B983F08C25@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BA92B9A868D349E4AD7DB8858D172D86@tiger>

Thank you, Wes. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. May you continue 
to be blessed.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Wester Potter" <wester6935 at comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:41 AM
To: "LAND SPEED LIST" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Land-speed] Happy Thanksgiving!

> I will head back to Utah in the morning after spending Thanksgiving near 
> to
> where the first one reportedly took place.  Boston is sunny, clear and 
> cold
> this morning.  This time tomorrow I'll be on a flight back home. 
> Hopefully
> the reason for this rush trip has settled enough that my wife can handle 
> it.
> I regret not being able to get down to say hello to Dave Dahlgren.  By my
> calculations he is closer than the salt flats are from my home.  There'll 
> be
> another trip and maybe I'll trust my driving on these paved cow paths a 
> little
> more by then.
>
> I'm grateful for family!  For the three grandkids who have occupied my 
> days
> since we arrived.  They are fun to be around and much too far from 
> convenient
> access from my home.  I can comfortably drive to their schools for after
> school pick up.  Finding more direct routes really helps.  I'm glad they 
> are
> doing so well.  My grandson is great.  Thankfully his birth, ten weeks 
> early
> last June, hasn't prevented him from thriving now.
>
> My friends from the Bonneville community continue to do things that make 
> me
> proud and happy to be involved with that select group.  What an impressive
> year of record times!  Thinking back over the events is a reminder of
> satisfactions and frustrations that were pretty much accepted as part of 
> the
> experience.  How nice to not have the attitude of entitlement on the salt 
> that
> we are seeing nightly on the TV news.  Congratulations to all of you.  I 
> can
> hardly wait to see you all on the salt next year!  With my easing back on 
> my
> salt responsibilities I hope to be able to see more of you during the 
> events.
>
> May I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving and a very Merry Christmas!
>
> Wes
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com 

From jimwebb at nutsracing.com  Thu Nov 24 09:21:17 2011
From: jimwebb at nutsracing.com (Jim Webb)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:21:17 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Happy Thanksgiving!
In-Reply-To: <4CD0C9C5-C4BD-4F06-A253-73B983F08C25@comcast.net>
References: <4CD0C9C5-C4BD-4F06-A253-73B983F08C25@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <14E80477997F404B853F1D3089DA7B77@VAIO>

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Wes and to the entire LSR list! Let's all count
our blessings and enjoy our families!

Jim Webb
Chock Full o' Nuts
AA/PP A/PP B/PP C/PP D/PP ?/FL

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Nov 24 14:20:28 2011
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:20:28 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
Message-ID: <4ECEB51C.5020203@mayfco.com>

Ok, now that I have been educate on the facts that GM wrist pins are far 
more prevalent than the Ford pins, here is a corollary  question:  What 
the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins? When I looked 
through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any with what I would 
consider a nominal dimension.  I mean, fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is 
0.927.  Why the odd dimension used?

mayf

-- 
______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Thu Nov 24 14:51:17 2011
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 16:51:17 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
In-Reply-To: <4ECEB51C.5020203@mayfco.com>
References: <4ECEB51C.5020203@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>

That's a simple one, Mayf.  I'm surprised you didn't figure it out.

.927" = 23.546 mm, and .912" - 23.165mm.  Both are pretty common metric
measurements, I guess.

There -- now does it make sense?

Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim




On Nov 24, 2011, at 4:20 PM, Larry Mayfield wrote:

Ok, now that I have been educate on the facts that GM wrist pins are far
more prevalent than the Ford pins, here is a corollary  question:  What
the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins? When I looked
through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any with what I would
consider a nominal dimension.  I mean, fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is
0.927.  Why the odd dimension used?

mayf

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Nov 24 15:28:11 2011
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:28:11 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
In-Reply-To: <037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>
References: <4ECEB51C.5020203@mayfco.com>
	<037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <4ECEC4FB.4030703@mayfco.com>

Well, ya think? I suspect when these were dreamed up most of the 
engineers couldn't spell metric.  Let alone coming up with odd ball 
number like those you mention.

But, in a curiously odd, very odd, way I guess it does make sense... in 
the 7 dimension of the Universe.

Any snow up in your neck of the woods?  Have a great Thanksgiving Day..

mayf

______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed


On 11/24/2011 1:51 PM, Jon Wennerberg wrote:
> That's a simple one, Mayf.  I'm surprised you didn't figure it out.
>
> .927" = 23.546 mm, and .912" - 23.165mm.  Both are pretty common metric measurements, I guess.
>
> There -- now does it make sense?
>
> Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2011, at 4:20 PM, Larry Mayfield wrote:
>
> Ok, now that I have been educate on the facts that GM wrist pins are far
> more prevalent than the Ford pins, here is a corollary  question:  What
> the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins? When I looked
> through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any with what I would
> consider a nominal dimension.  I mean, fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is
> 0.927.  Why the odd dimension used?
>
> mayf

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Nov 24 15:29:50 2011
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:29:50 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
In-Reply-To: <037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>
References: <4ECEB51C.5020203@mayfco.com>
	<037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <4ECEC55E.3090801@mayfco.com>

Oh, Oh , I see it now!   Funny....
mayf

______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed


On 11/24/2011 1:51 PM, Jon Wennerberg wrote:
> That's a simple one, Mayf.  I'm surprised you didn't figure it out.
>
> .927" = 23.546 mm, and .912" - 23.165mm.  Both are pretty common metric measurements, I guess.
>
> There -- now does it make sense?
>
> Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2011, at 4:20 PM, Larry Mayfield wrote:
>
> Ok, now that I have been educate on the facts that GM wrist pins are far
> more prevalent than the Ford pins, here is a corollary  question:  What
> the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins? When I looked
> through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any with what I would
> consider a nominal dimension.  I mean, fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is
> 0.927.  Why the odd dimension used?
>
> mayf

From v4gmr at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 24 15:47:04 2011
From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:47:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
In-Reply-To: <4ECEC55E.3090801@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <1322174824.51065.YahooMailClassic@web39409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

How did Packard come up with .9804? My earlier GMC engines, and my Lotus 907
used .990 wrist pins a standard BBC size. Why not go to 1.000? If they did
common sense stuff like that, what would we need engineers for?

--- On Thu, 11/24/11, Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com> wrote:


From: Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com>
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
To: "Jon Wennerberg" <jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org>
Cc: "land-speed at autox.team.net" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Date: Thursday, November 24, 2011, 2:29 PM


Oh, Oh , I see it now!   Funny....
mayf

______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed


On 11/24/2011 1:51 PM, Jon Wennerberg wrote:
> That's a simple one, Mayf.  I'm surprised you didn't figure it out.
>
> .927" = 23.546 mm, and .912" - 23.165mm.  Both are pretty common metric
measurements, I guess.
>
> There -- now does it make sense?
>
> Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2011, at 4:20 PM, Larry Mayfield wrote:
>
> Ok, now that I have been educate on the facts that GM wrist pins are far
> more prevalent than the Ford pins, here is a corollary  question:  What
> the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins? When I looked
> through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any with what I would
> consider a nominal dimension.  I mean, fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is
> 0.927.  Why the odd dimension used?
>
> mayf
_______________________________________________
Land-speed at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Thu Nov 24 17:20:36 2011
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 19:20:36 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Re  Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters .
Message-ID: <3F39CB75F92C490282E45E912156D089@john>

Mayf

I could make a pretty good guess . Word of Chevy developing a killer ohv v8 
leaked out . Ford rushed their quick and dirty ohv Y block into production a 
year ahead in 1954 and ate crow till they sheepishly introduced their SBC 
clone in 1961 . Their light weight , low deck , large bore , short stroke is 
cool . Ours is lighter , lower , larger , and shorter . Their wrist pins are 
an odd small diameter , our's are odd and smaller .

John


> Ok, now that I have been educate on the facts that GM wrist pins are far
> more prevalent than the Ford pins, here is a corollary  question:  What
> the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins? When I looked
> through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any with what I would
> consider a nominal dimension.  I mean, fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is
> 0.927.  Why the odd dimension used?
>
> mayf

From mark at bradakis.com  Thu Nov 24 21:09:45 2011
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 21:09:45 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
In-Reply-To: <037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>
References: <4ECEB51C.5020203@mayfco.com>
	<037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <4ECF1509.3010208@bradakis.com>

 > What the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins?
 > When I looked through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any
 > with what I would consider a nominal dimension. I mean, fords
 > is 0.912 inches and GM's is 0.927. Why the odd dimension used?

Likely they start with 1 inch stock, and when the piece is finished
that is where it ends up.

mjb.

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Thu Nov 24 22:40:41 2011
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 21:40:41 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
References: <4ECEB51C.5020203@mayfco.com><037608CB-B7C9-4A8F-8F77-A0B9DE629402@nancyandjon.org>
	<4ECF1509.3010208@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <01738366094E4629B306319FD5069660@edc2750afa5a84>

You have to remember that in the '50's when these auto companies were 
producing a million vehicles a year a penny saved on the cost of each would 
have paid the salary, fringes and overhead costs of an experienced engineer 
for a year.  .............Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark J Bradakis" <mark at bradakis.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters


> > What the heck is up with the odd ball diameters of the pins?
> > When I looked through a listing of pins, I don't think I found any
> > with what I would consider a nominal dimension. I mean, fords
> > is 0.912 inches and GM's is 0.927. Why the odd dimension used?
>
> Likely they start with 1 inch stock, and when the piece is finished
> that is where it ends up.
>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
> Land-speed at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/23.weldon at comcast.net

From saltfever at comcast.net  Fri Nov 25 16:40:41 2011
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 15:40:41 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1322247615.2430.land-speed@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <5B3EB381EFD849D1954A935F5B8F3415@dim8100>

These were designed in the days long before FEA. The accepted method was to
start oversize, as Mark has said, and then continue reducing size along with
tensile testing until the breaking strength is at an acceptable level. The
other thing to consider is the OEM's subcontractor's existing tooling. As Ed
mentioned cost was, and still is, the driver. If you are making 40 million
pins a year you must consider the total cost to make small changes to a
multi-million dollar transfer line or process. The size was probably the
most economical result of changes to existing tooling. 40 million pins
(3.75" length) is about 2,400 miles of bar stock. At that volume the factory
can get whatever nominal size it wants directly from the mill without cost
penalty. However, material costs savings still result with smaller
diameters. As Ed indicated, one penny less in material cost is about
$400,000.

From: Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com>
(snip . . . ) fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is 0.927.  Why the odd
dimension used?

From dahlgren536 at comcast.net  Fri Nov 25 22:45:14 2011
From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 00:45:14 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters
In-Reply-To: <5B3EB381EFD849D1954A935F5B8F3415@dim8100>
References: <5B3EB381EFD849D1954A935F5B8F3415@dim8100>
Message-ID: <85B74D20622F478FBD77E14256C5F4B1@DaveSatellite>

If you start with off the shelf material you save a pile of money with no
tooling costs and a material universally supplied by most mills so not tied
to any vendor. You can specify very loose tolerances again saving money
there will be distortion at various step of finishing and their tolerances
as well so can specify them initially pretty loose all with the final
grinding op the only one with tight tolerances. You save a fortune with
loose tolerances through all the initial machining and heat treating steps
and the initial material spec as well. It is all about cost of manufacture
and cost of material. The science is there is no science just money. It also
allows for only 2 QC checks one for hardness and one for final diameter with
no intermediate checks needed which save yet another big pile of money in
time and equipment. Good engineering builds in manufacturing costs along
with strength. If you start the engineering with the premise the machinery
is worn to some degree and the operators semi skilled tolerances are your
biggest cost as it requires new machines and skilled operators. The biggest
challenge for a cutting tool is to make a very light cut rather than a heavy
one. The light one will allow backlash and bearing / gib clearance be the
determining factor for straight and round a heavy cut will load everything
down to a predictable location every time so contrary to initial naive
thinking about machine work.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirkwood" <saltfever at comcast.net>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:40 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Dumb Question # 4857 - Wrist Pin Diameters


> These were designed in the days long before FEA. The accepted method was
> to
> start oversize, as Mark has said, and then continue reducing size along
> with
> tensile testing until the breaking strength is at an acceptable level. The
> other thing to consider is the OEM's subcontractor's existing tooling. As
> Ed
> mentioned cost was, and still is, the driver. If you are making 40 million
> pins a year you must consider the total cost to make small changes to a
> multi-million dollar transfer line or process. The size was probably the
> most economical result of changes to existing tooling. 40 million pins
> (3.75" length) is about 2,400 miles of bar stock. At that volume the
> factory
> can get whatever nominal size it wants directly from the mill without cost
> penalty. However, material costs savings still result with smaller
> diameters. As Ed indicated, one penny less in material cost is about
> $400,000.
>
> From: Larry Mayfield <drmayf at mayfco.com>
> (snip . . . ) fords is 0.912 inches and GM's is 0.927.  Why the odd
> dimension used?