From turborick at turborick.com Tue Feb 1 10:14:34 2011 From: turborick at turborick.com (Rick Yacoucci) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:14:34 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] New Engine For Nebulous Theorem III In-Reply-To: <4D4322ED.5070006@xmission.com> References: <4D4322ED.5070006@xmission.com> Message-ID: <01b301cbc233$7f4e4e30$7deaea90$@com> Here is what we have been working on, I know it's not a V8 it's more of a square 8 But it's at 22 degrees so were calling it a V8 there will be a 12 and 16 cylinder version in the future Engines make about 220 hp per litre http://bonnevillestreamliner.com/2000cc-v8-engine/ Thanks Rick Yacoucci Rick Yacoucci Racing 661-618-7706 http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com From turborick at turborick.com Tue Feb 1 12:03:53 2011 From: turborick at turborick.com (Rick Yacoucci) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:03:53 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] New Engine For Nebulous Theorem III In-Reply-To: <4D484B5F.2020007@mayfco.com> References: <4D4322ED.5070006@xmission.com> <01b301cbc233$7f4e4e30$7deaea90$@com> <4D484B5F.2020007@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <01c401cbc242$c4e6a0f0$4eb3e2d0$@com> Larry The cost isn't too bad yet, my dad and I are doing all the work on our manual machines. They are a pair of gsxr1000 motors, yes common shaft for output, yes for NT788. Yea there have been several twin crank m/c engines. It will be NA first then later we will turbo. Thanks Rick Yacoucci -----Original Message----- From: Larry Mayfield [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 10:05 AM To: Rick Yacoucci Subject: Re: [Land-speed] New Engine For Nebulous Theorem III Rick! Utterly awesome! I am guessing that it takes all your spare change to fund development of this. Is this a pair of Busa motors? Geared together on a common but third shaft for output? I am guessing for NT788? Remins me of teh Ariel square 4 motor. two separate engine geared together. Bugger to tune. Turbocharged? Sure of course, lol... I ain't a flathead.... Wow, again mayf On 2/1/2011 9:14 AM, Rick Yacoucci wrote: > Here is what we have been working on, I know it's not a V8 it's more of a > square 8 > But it's at 22 degrees so were calling it a V8 there will be a 12 and 16 > cylinder version in the future > Engines make about 220 hp per litre > > http://bonnevillestreamliner.com/2000cc-v8-engine/ > > > > Thanks > Rick Yacoucci > > Rick Yacoucci Racing > 661-618-7706 > http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com > _______________________________________________ From wester6935 at comcast.net Thu Feb 3 12:43:10 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 12:43:10 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] No, it wasn't from Jon ... Message-ID: <6B468329-60EB-47EB-B044-9BAA0F448B87@comcast.net> Storm moving in from the north I just got off the phone with friend living in northern Michigan near the Canadian border. He said that since this morning the snow has been nearly waist high and is still falling. The temperature is dropping way below zero and the north wind is increasing to near gale force. His wife has done nothing but look through the kitchen window and just stare. He says that if it gets much worse, he may have to let her in. From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Thu Feb 3 13:14:49 2011 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 15:14:49 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] No, it wasn't from Jon ... In-Reply-To: <6B468329-60EB-47EB-B044-9BAA0F448B87@comcast.net> References: <6B468329-60EB-47EB-B044-9BAA0F448B87@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yah, yah, shoor, but really -- we've had a dusting of snow here in the past few days -- maybe 2" total. Temps were cool overnight last night -- about +3F, and the night before that was +15F. We're having a pretty mellow winter - snow, cold, but no big storms to speak of, that's for sure. This is great for our grandchildren: We own 60 acres of hardwood forested land which, in the not too distant future, will be valuable as the people abandoning the desert that used to be Illinois and Ohio and places like that - will have to move north to get back to temperate climes. Our land will then be sub-dividable and the kids can sell 100' x 100' lots and get wealthy. See, it all will work out for the best. Don't complain about the weather where you live - just save your money to buy land up here after Nancy and I have gone to our reward. Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim On Feb 3, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Wester Potter wrote: > Storm moving in from the north > > I just got off the phone with friend living in northern Michigan near the > Canadian border. He said that since this morning the snow has been nearly > waist high and is still falling. The temperature is dropping way below zero > and the north wind is increasing to near gale force. His wife has done > nothing but look through the kitchen window and just stare. He says that if > it gets much worse, he may have to let her in. From bob at southmtpages.com Thu Feb 3 18:06:42 2011 From: bob at southmtpages.com (Bob Clancy) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:06:42 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] No, it wasn't from Jon ... In-Reply-To: References: <6B468329-60EB-47EB-B044-9BAA0F448B87@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D4B5122.2030907@southmtpages.com> Hey, greetings from the sunny, warm Southwest! We've had lows of -10 and -15, with a high of 0 in between. Today it's sunny and up to a balmy 13. I know, Jon is not extremely sympathetic, as he's used to this absurdity.... but if he calls me a weenie, I'll start talking about the Vernor's Ginger Ale freezing on the windowsill (inside) in Miller Hall at Michigan Tech, where we both went to school, a couple years apart. Our winter has been weird... warm, then 15" of snow that was gone in about 3 days.... then warm, now this unusual cold spell (-15), with highs predicted to be 45 this weekend. Go figger. Bob the Landracing Web Elf Bob Clancy South Mt. Web Design San Pedro, NM www.southmtpages.com On 2/3/2011 1:14 PM, Jon Wennerberg wrote: > Yah, yah, shoor, but really -- we've had a dusting of snow here in the past > few days -- maybe 2" total. Temps were cool overnight last night -- about > +3F, and the night before that was +15F. We're having a pretty mellow winter > - snow, cold, but no big storms to speak of, that's for sure. This is great > for our grandchildren: We own 60 acres of hardwood forested land which, in > the not too distant future, will be valuable as the people abandoning the > desert that used to be Illinois and Ohio and places like that - will have to > move north to get back to temperate climes. Our land will then be > sub-dividable and the kids can sell 100' x 100' lots and get wealthy. See, it > all will work out for the best. Don't complain about the weather where you > live - just save your money to buy land up here after Nancy and I have gone to > our reward. > > Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim > > On Feb 3, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Wester Potter wrote: > >> Storm moving in from the north >> >> I just got off the phone with friend living in northern Michigan near the >> Canadian border. He said that since this morning the snow has been nearly >> waist high and is still falling. The temperature is dropping way below zero >> and the north wind is increasing to near gale force. His wife has done >> nothing but look through the kitchen window and just stare. He says that if >> it gets much worse, he may have to let her in. > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/bob at southmtpages.com From gmc6power at earthlink.net Fri Feb 4 08:55:21 2011 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 07:55:21 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Land-speed] No, it wasn't from Jon ... Message-ID: <13868722.1296834921806.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Expecting a lousy morning at 47 here in Huntington Beach. The islands off the coast are clear so are the drilling platforms....Need to keep a heavy jacket on for the expected high of 67 for the afternoon...Weekend looking better as we move into the 70's.May tke out the Indian on Saturday morning to the Donut Deralics if I don't work...............Ta Ta......JD > >Hey, greetings from the sunny, warm Southwest! We've had >lows of -10 and -15, with a high of 0 in between. Today >it's sunny and up to a balmy 13. >Our winter has been weird... warm, then 15" of snow that was >gone in about 3 days.... then warm, now this unusual cold >spell (-15), with highs predicted to be 45 this weekend. Go >figger. > >San Pedro, NM >www.southmtpages.com From rbuck at xmission.com Fri Feb 4 10:26:59 2011 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 10:26:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Target 550 Update 92 Message-ID: <4D4C36E3.1070909@xmission.com> Update 92. It's Friday and that means another Target 550 update. In this one it appears that the boys at the Skunk Works have concentrated on plumbing. Mainly the water lines from the tanks to the motors. You gotta see how they dealt with an awkward radius bend. http://www.target550.com/gallery/92_its_all_plumbing/index.html Enjoy, RtR From advo53 at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 07:46:59 2011 From: advo53 at gmail.com (greg meyers) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 08:46:59 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton odd request..... Message-ID: I'll be out visiting family in Greensboro NC on June 18th. Rather than flying immediately back to Minnesota , thought I'd maybe go down to Maxton for the 6/25-26 event. By then, our Salt2Salt car should be far enough along so that it won't miss me for a few days..... Wondering if anybody needs an extra crew member to get their car ready and over to Maxton. They might like to come hang with us in August when we trek to Wendover.... Greg 320-282-4577 My car projects http://salt2salt.com bonneville racer (site needs updating for 2010....F/CGALT and F/CFALT records) http://tribaker.wordpress.com bonneville engine in 37' Stude LPG 2F1R 3 wheeler http://turbostude.com 50' Stude with turbocharged flathead 6 http://turbostude.com/Elsie 53' Olds mine since high-school From wester6935 at comcast.net Mon Feb 7 20:29:56 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:29:56 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... Message-ID: There's sure a lot of scrap shavings out in their yard. They get recycled rather frequently. From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 22:00:42 2011 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 21:00:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <745677.49328.qm@web113819.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ? DW "Bonneville is not a bucket list item, its a life style." Allison Volk Dean 2010 XanGo, the Whole Fruit Mangosteen Puree! A natural anti-inflammatory Immune system booster & antioxidant. http://www.joaniewarner.mymangosteen.com/ 1-818-998-4435 Dan and Joanie use XanGo, won't you? www.mangosteenfruitinfo.com --- On Mon, 2/7/11, Wester Potter wrote: From: Wester Potter Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... To: "LAND SPEED LIST" Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 7:29 PM There's sure a lot of scrap shavings out in their yard. They get recycled rather frequently. _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/dwarner230 at yahoo.com From adin at frontier.net Tue Feb 8 07:27:23 2011 From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:27:23 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... References: Message-ID: <46D0AE49D2524DC9AE17AAD26EAD5F56@ZTxp> word is they are trying to machine billet FE blocks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" To: "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 8:29 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... > There's sure a lot of scrap shavings out in their yard. They get recycled > rather frequently. > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/adin at frontier.net > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 5855 (20110208) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5855 (20110208) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 08:37:48 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:37:48 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] sorry, the link didn't come through on Kirkhams. Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbHRInu7Z5U From 23.weldon at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 10:50:30 2011 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:50:30 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... References: <46D0AE49D2524DC9AE17AAD26EAD5F56@ZTxp> Message-ID: Any of you guys out there close enough to the biz of making race engine parts to know the real pluses and minuses of cast vs billet blocks? >From an engineering standpoint I'm having trouble understanding why they don't cast and finish machine this thing rather than machining it complete. You can get a lot of casting value for the money thrown away turning 300+ pounds of $6.00/pound billet aluminum into $1.00/pound chips for recycling. And if you can machine it the patterns for casting should be fairly low in coast; .i.e. maybe just a 2 or 3 multiple of the cost of a finished block. Maybe the problem is finding the right foundry to do the job. "Lost Foam" casting process come to mind here. I would have thought that times were pretty tough in the foundry business and the still surviving aluminum casting foundries would be pretty hungry for business. BTW, you can make foundry patterns and core boxes as well as foam pattern molds the same way they machined the block although patterns still require lots of hand finishing to get surfaces that will be properly polished and things like draft angles and shrink allowances will have to be added to the CAD solid model used to drive the machining software. Maybe there's some current knowledge in the biz of making aftermarket aluminum blocks that says the properties of aluminum billet stock in that size (6061, 7075 or something special?) are better than cast material. To my simple mind it seems unlikely that you'll get anything like T-6 strength properties in the center of that big chunk of aluminum. Maybe the issue is consistency of thermal expansion properties in the area of the block where the sleeves fit. Problems in this area can result in sleeves going out of round when the engine heats up resulting in poor contact and seating of the rings. It can take a lot of fiddling in the foundry to cure such problems in castings. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "David in Durango" To: "Wester Potter" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... > word is they are trying to machine billet FE blocks. From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 12:13:39 2011 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 11:13:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <954202.65496.qm@web113815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Ed, It is a university. Class project? Chips = beer. DW --- On Tue, 2/8/11, 23weldon <23.weldon at comcast.net> wrote: From: 23weldon <23.weldon at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... To: "David in Durango" , "Wester Potter" , "LAND SPEED LIST" Cc: ddahlgren at snet.net, Rick at RBMotorsports.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 9:50 AM Any of you guys out there close enough to the biz of making race engine parts to know the real pluses and minuses of cast vs billet blocks? >From an engineering standpoint I'm having trouble understanding why they don't cast and finish machine this thing rather than machining it complete. You can get a lot of casting value for the money thrown away turning 300+ pounds of $6.00/pound billet aluminum into $1.00/pound chips for recycling. And if you can machine it the patterns for casting should be fairly low in coast; .i.e. maybe just a 2 or 3 multiple of the cost of a finished block. Maybe the problem is finding the right foundry to do the job. "Lost Foam" casting process come to mind here. I would have thought that times were pretty tough in the foundry business and the still surviving aluminum casting foundries would be pretty hungry for business. BTW, you can make foundry patterns and core boxes as well as foam pattern molds the same way they machined the block although patterns still require lots of hand finishing to get surfaces that will be properly polished and things like draft angles and shrink allowances will have to be added to the CAD solid model used to drive the machining software. Maybe there's some current knowledge in the biz of making aftermarket aluminum blocks that says the properties of aluminum billet stock in that size (6061, 7075 or something special?) are better than cast material. To my simple mind it seems unlikely that you'll get anything like T-6 strength properties in the center of that big chunk of aluminum. Maybe the issue is consistency of thermal expansion properties in the area of the block where the sleeves fit. Problems in this area can result in sleeves going out of round when the engine heats up resulting in poor contact and seating of the rings. It can take a lot of fiddling in the foundry to cure such problems in castings. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "David in Durango" To: "Wester Potter" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... > word is they are trying to machine billet FE blocks. _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/dwarner230 at yahoo.com From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Feb 8 12:58:55 2011 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 11:58:55 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] sorry, the link didn't come through on Kirkhams. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D51A07F.4080104@mayfco.com> Wes, all... an interesting concept for the main bearing caps. Ut, what happens when you spin one bearing in teh middle of that assembly. Seems like then everything has to be line bored and the faying surfaces redone so that it all fits together correctly again. I'd rather have individual caps and a girdle that can be installed with preload of some kind. but whadda I know, lol... mayf On 2/8/2011 7:37 AM, Wester Potter wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbHRInu7Z5U > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/drmayf at mayfco.com From saltfever at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 14:38:54 2011 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:38:54 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... Message-ID: <481BF18B293B4184BD12F2BB57FC33F3@dim8100> My thoughts precisely, Ed. When I first saw it I thought "why isn't that CAM being done on a wood pattern?" -Kirk. From: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> Any of you guys out there close enough to the biz of making race engine parts to know the real pluses and minuses of cast vs billet blocks? From an engineering standpoint I'm having trouble understanding why they don't cast and finish machine this thing rather than machining it complete. (snip . . . ) From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 17:01:00 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:01:00 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... In-Reply-To: <481BF18B293B4184BD12F2BB57FC33F3@dim8100> References: <481BF18B293B4184BD12F2BB57FC33F3@dim8100> Message-ID: <3DAFD608-7391-4601-AE59-AAEC69303572@comcast.net> It was done in wood first and critiqued by some experienced automotive engineers. There are others on this list who saw the machined wood block. I have photos. The suggested changes, primarily in gasket surfaces, are reflected in the aluminum block. To see more go to their website and see the machined aluminum space frame they built for a customer's car. www.kirkhammotorsports.com/ On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:38 PM, Kirkwood wrote: > My thoughts precisely, Ed. When I first saw it I thought "why isn't that CAM > being done on a wood pattern?" > > -Kirk. > > From: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> > > Any of you guys out there close enough to the biz of making race engine > parts to know the real pluses and minuses of cast vs billet blocks? From an > engineering standpoint I'm having trouble understanding why they don't cast > and finish machine this thing rather than machining it complete. (snip . . . > ) > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/wester6935 at comcast.net From v4gmr at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 17:34:08 2011 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:34:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Land-speed] sorry, the link didn't come through on Kirkhams. In-Reply-To: <4D51A07F.4080104@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <468384.53183.qm@web39408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Since the main caps are bolted to a block that is all one piece, it seems as though the whole thing would have needed to be line bored anyway. Wouldn't you say? My Lotus and Nissan blocks came with similar main caps from the factories. Seemed pretty nice at the time. --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Larry Mayfield wrote: From: Larry Mayfield Subject: Re: [Land-speed] sorry, the link didn't come through on Kirkhams. To: land-speed at autox.team.net Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 11:58 AM Wes, all... an interesting concept for the main bearing caps. Ut, what happens when you spin one bearing in teh middle of that assembly. Seems like then everything has to be line bored and the faying surfaces redone so that it all fits together correctly again. I'd rather have individual caps and a girdle that can be installed with preload of some kind. but whadda I know, lol... mayf On 2/8/2011 7:37 AM, Wester Potter wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbHRInu7Z5U > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/drmayf at mayfco.com _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/v4gmr at yahoo.com From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Tue Feb 8 17:45:15 2011 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:45:15 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkham Message-ID: <1FF76973288A49F286011F23372ABE23@Rick> I have a little experience with Alum castings. Mostly die cast and Semi permanent mold, and some with Iron castings. In aluminum no experience with parts as big as a cylinder block, but having tested smaller parts ( 4.6L Front cover) that were cast, verses billet, I found the mechanical strength of the billet part FAR better than any casting which is full of air bubbles of various sizes. Almost regardless of alloy. (I no longer have any data), the density of the material is so consistent in a billet part, and with stress relieving and additional heat treat the block will be indestructible. (and very repairable.) Besides, they do it because they can. If you consider this the rapid protyping and very limited production (1 copy per week or less) I'll bet the cost per piece will beat cast parts including tooling and the learning process for vents and sprews. Way back I did a 2.3Liter block for Ford SVO. I was working with and visiting our engine plant and casting center at Taubate, Brasil on a regular basis. We modified old water jacket cores, and added lots of iron to the main webs and skirt, Siamese bores and .750" deck. In all added 26 pounds of Iron. My point is The casting/learning process required over 1000 parts to get 200 good usable blocks. Many times the airbubbles/voids would not show up till almost the end of the machining process. I have visited Kirkhams, and looked at their parts. They produce extraordinary products and I think they are bringing the FE into the present time. They are using current technology to update the classic powerplant. I don't think there is much of an economic slump for the folks that can afford the Kirkham products. The Billet 427 sure is a perfect engine into their roadster or Daytona Coupe. Absolutely over the top. From joyseydevil at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 19:35:08 2011 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:35:08 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] sorry, the link didn't come through on Kirkhams. Message-ID: As I remember Milodon aluminum 426 hemi blocks had a one piece main cap/girdle assy like the Kirkham . They apparently worked alright . John > Since the main caps are bolted to a block that is all one piece, it seems > as > though the whole thing would have needed to be line bored anyway. Wouldn't > you > say? My Lotus and Nissan blocks came with similar main caps from the > factories. Seemed pretty nice at the time. > > --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Larry Mayfield wrote: > > > From: Larry Mayfield > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] sorry, the link didn't come through on Kirkhams. > To: land-speed at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 11:58 AM > > > Wes, all... an interesting concept for the main bearing caps. Ut, what > happens when you spin one bearing in teh middle of that assembly. Seems > like > then everything has to be line bored and the faying surfaces redone so > that it > all fits together correctly again. I'd rather have individual caps and a > girdle that can be installed with preload of some kind. > > but whadda I know, lol... > > mayf > > On 2/8/2011 7:37 AM, Wester Potter wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbHRInu7Z5U >> _______________________________________________ >> Land-speed at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/drmayf at mayfco.com > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/v4gmr at yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/joyseydevil at comcast.net From dahlgren536 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 20:05:52 2011 From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 22:05:52 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... In-Reply-To: <3DAFD608-7391-4601-AE59-AAEC69303572@comcast.net> References: <481BF18B293B4184BD12F2BB57FC33F3@dim8100> <3DAFD608-7391-4601-AE59-AAEC69303572@comcast.net> Message-ID: <60197FF4E7274D05B62D3846B8303591@DaveSatellite> A precision casting would make a bunch more sense once you get past 2 pieces. machine time is big money unless you have nothing better to do. What is left out of most video deals like this is the fact when you machine away that much material the material jumps all over the place. There is no way you can remove over 80% of the 'billet' and go straight to finished sizes as the video suggests. I have turned over 100 lbs into 15 for various projects and generaly you machine down to 0.100 to go and forget about working on it for a week or so while the material works out it's issues with stress. I don't have an oven to stress relieve but time is your friend lacking one. it does not just go 'boing' but creeps over time until it settles to a new shape that you did not have in mind. If it was machined directly to finished size it is actually junk all hype set aside. The 'forging' as well lookes a lot like rolled plate and there is a real big difference. Generally you forge in a die with a very large steam hammer or similar and have yet to see one that is a rectangle with sawn ends. The 'Kirkham University' was equally amusing Solid Works Surfcam and a Hass VMC is the staple of every mom and pop job shop around here and has very little to do with high end stuff I doubt you could get a job in a small shop if not familiar with them. Oh well as usual things no one wants to hear from me but a realist rather than a believer in hype. My take your milage may vary. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" To: "Kirkwood" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Kirkhams are at it again ... > It was done in wood first and critiqued by some experienced automotive > engineers. There are others on this list who saw the machined wood block. > I > have photos. The suggested changes, primarily in gasket surfaces, are > reflected in the aluminum block. To see more go to their website and see > the > machined aluminum space frame they built for a customer's car. > www.kirkhammotorsports.com/ > > > On Feb 8, 2011, at 2:38 PM, Kirkwood wrote: > >> My thoughts precisely, Ed. When I first saw it I thought "why isn't that > CAM >> being done on a wood pattern?" >> >> -Kirk. >> >> From: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> >> >> Any of you guys out there close enough to the biz of making race engine >> parts to know the real pluses and minuses of cast vs billet blocks? From > an >> engineering standpoint I'm having trouble understanding why they don't >> cast >> and finish machine this thing rather than machining it complete. (snip . >> . > . >> ) From donoaks at verizon.net Thu Feb 10 10:26:32 2011 From: donoaks at verizon.net (Don Oaks) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:26:32 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] gas-up and lsr hall of fame press release Message-ID: <001101cbc947$aeebc8a0$6401a8c0@lenovothinkpad> press release for the 2011 Gas-Up and Hall of Fame ceremony is attached. contact don oaks at 805 6885969 if you have questions. thanx, don :) ***************************************************************************** ******************* This email communication is for the sole use of the intended recipient. The information contained in this email, including any attached documents or material, is confidential, subject to copyright, and may contain proprietary or legally protected information, including but not limited to, information protected by the attorney-client privilege, and work-product doctrine, and is restricted from disclosure by applicable State and Federal law. Further, the recipient may not use, copy, distribute, forward or otherwise disseminate any part of this email communication except as expressly permitted by sender. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this communication. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of 2011 Gas Up Press Release.doc] From wester6935 at comcast.net Fri Feb 11 14:46:11 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:46:11 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Snotty medical receptionist References: <33B5ABC72401415998F0FA54C4A03C94@KentPC> Message-ID: <8F4223CC-1221-4E5E-943B-3E27639F3594@comcast.net> > Wish I were this quick on funny replies. Wes > > > > > > > Snotty medical receptionist > > > Yesterday I had an appointment to see the urologist for a Prostrate exam. Of course I was a bit on edge because all my friends have either gone under the knife or had those pellets implanted.. > > The waiting room was filled with patients. As I approached the receptionist's desk, I noticed that the receptionist was a large unfriendly woman who looked like a Sumo wrestler. > > > I gave her my name. In a very loud voice, the receptionist said,"YES, I HAVE YOUR NAME HERE;YOU WANT TO SEE THE DOCTOR ABOUT IMPOTENCE, RIGHT?" > > > All the patients in the waiting room snapped their heads around to look at me, a now very embarrassed man. But as usual, I recovered quickly, and in an equally loud voice replied, > > 'NO, I'VE COME TO INQUIRE ABOUT A SEX CHANGE OPERATION, BUT I DON'T WANT THE SAME DOCTOR THAT DID YOURS." > > The room erupted in applause! > > DON'T MESS WITH OLD RETIRED GUYS!!! From rbuck at xmission.com Sat Feb 12 17:12:34 2011 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:12:34 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Target 550 update In-Reply-To: <8F4223CC-1221-4E5E-943B-3E27639F3594@comcast.net> References: <33B5ABC72401415998F0FA54C4A03C94@KentPC> <8F4223CC-1221-4E5E-943B-3E27639F3594@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D5721F2.7070903@xmission.com> We're a little late, but the wait is worth it. This post shows the incredible lengths to which the guys in the shop will go to make a part when they can't buy one. Just a simple 90-degree elbow for the water lines. It's unreel! http://www.target550.com/gallery/94_...ple/index.html There's a new section called, "Unsung Heroes." There's an introduction by Marlo and Mike Zwickard is the first of the heroes: http://www.target550.com/unsungheroes.html Mike's no longer with and this is a fitting tribute. RtR From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 17:22:51 2011 From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:22:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] sheetmetal guy In-Reply-To: <303303041.129722.1297547407746.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <581801939.133460.1297556571753.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> http://vimeo.com/16435404 From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 17:35:06 2011 From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:35:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] oops Message-ID: <661293153.133781.1297557306405.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I miss-clicked and sent that Sheetmetal guy to the List, but hey, he's in SLC anyway. From 23.weldon at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 21:44:38 2011 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:44:38 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] oops References: <661293153.133781.1297557306405.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <732C9367877C4578AC278E93D06687EA@edc2750afa5a84> Your "Oops well worth the effort. I watched it, joined Vimeo and left a comment on that flick. Here's the text: "I'm not qualified to comment on the quality of the video production. But Neil Youngberg comes out very credible with a good story to tell. I've had the privilege of meeting a good number of folks like Neil in both my career and my hobbies. Take heart. They are still among us. But their stories need to be told. And that's where you video artists come in" Should I tell them about Speedweek? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Landspeed" Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 4:35 PM Subject: [Land-speed] oops >I miss-clicked and sent that Sheetmetal guy to the List, but hey, he's in >SLC anyway. > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/23.weldon at comcast.net From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Feb 20 11:34:05 2011 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 10:34:05 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... Message-ID: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> I have been toying around with an idea for a new motor for my Sunbeam. But it would require a destroked crank to meet the displacement goals. I have been searching around for such cranks and they are pretty rare. Some are apparently used in a Nascar class somewhere which has a displacement limit. I know about off set grinding to either stroke or destroke abit. But, even with a brand new crank, I would not be able to get there. So, my question... I know cranks can be welded up and reground. But how much can that be used? If I wanted to take a crank down with a stroke difference of say 1/2 inch? That seems like a LOT, lol, as it would require a 1/4 inch or more of buildup on the inside of the rod throw. Even if I started with a 289 ford crank it would still be a lot. And is that even doable with a cast crank? I would expect it to be ok on a forged steel or billet crank, though. I'd like some responses from folk who have actually had something like this done. Suggestions of changing motor blocks etc are not what I am looking for. And I am just fiddling around now. The Sunbeam may never run again as a race car..and that would no doubt please a LOT of people, lol... mayf From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Sun Feb 20 13:22:03 2011 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:22:03 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> References: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <8AD66ED4-618A-4B21-9951-776C1B007141@nancyandjon.org> I had a built-up/welded up stroker crank made for my nitrous bike -- and it didn't last well at all. I heard poor things about the welded up process after going that way. It wasn't a huge increase in displacement - about 18cc per cylinder, and that would be out of about 70 or 80 mm stock. Whatever - it wasn't the way to go for my engine. I then spent big (no, HUGE!!) money to get a billet stroker crank made for me. At that time my engine builder said he looked hither and yon and could not find an American firm that would take the job, and I have to presume that he did his homework and really did check 'em all out, including that one on the west coast (unh, is it something like Marine Crankshafts - or something?). We ended up getting the crank from Farndon, a firm in the British westlands. They quoted 6 - 8 ---and delivered in about 16 MONTHS! At a very high price, too. The thing is running now, but we have not sprayed when it's running, so I don't know if this one will live or not. Further deponent sayeth not. Jon a/k/a SSS On Feb 20, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Larry Mayfield wrote: I have been toying around with an idea for a new motor for my Sunbeam. But it would require a destroked crank to meet the displacement goals. I have been searching around for such cranks and they are pretty rare. Some are apparently used in a Nascar class somewhere which has a displacement limit. I know about off set grinding to either stroke or destroke abit. But, even with a brand new crank, I would not be able to get there. So, my question... I know cranks can be welded up and reground. But how much can that be used? If I wanted to take a crank down with a stroke difference of say 1/2 inch? That seems like a LOT, lol, as it would require a 1/4 inch or more of buildup on the inside of the rod throw. Even if I started with a 289 ford crank it would still be a lot. And is that even doable with a cast crank? I would expect it to be ok on a forged steel or billet crank, though. I'd like some responses from folk who have actually had something like this done. Suggestions of changing motor blocks etc are not what I am looking for. And I am just fiddling around now. The Sunbeam may never run again as a race car..and that would no doubt please a LOT of people, lol... mayf __ From sparky.2211 at cox.net Sun Feb 20 18:51:16 2011 From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (sparky.2211 at cox.net) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 20:51:16 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <20110220205116.SYLKD.1301444.imail@fed1rmwml43> I would just pull push rods and put dummy lifters to keep up oil presure and plug wires out of ever how many cyl you need to get to displacement ---- Larry Mayfield wrote: > I have been toying around with an idea for a new motor for my Sunbeam. > But it would require a destroked crank to meet the displacement goals. I > have been searching around for such cranks and they are pretty rare. > Some are apparently used in a Nascar class somewhere which has a > displacement limit. I know about off set grinding to either stroke or > destroke abit. But, even with a brand new crank, I would not be able to > get there. So, my question... I know cranks can be welded up and > reground. But how much can that be used? If I wanted to take a crank > down with a stroke difference of say 1/2 inch? That seems like a LOT, > lol, as it would require a 1/4 inch or more of buildup on the inside of > the rod throw. Even if I started with a 289 ford crank it would > still be a lot. And is that even doable with a cast crank? I would > expect it to be ok on a forged steel or billet crank, though. > > I'd like some responses from folk who have actually had something like > this done. Suggestions of changing motor blocks etc are not what I am > looking for. > > And I am just fiddling around now. The Sunbeam may never run again as a > race car..and that would no doubt please a LOT of people, lol... From saltfever at comcast.net Sun Feb 20 23:26:36 2011 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:26:36 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] De-stroking a crankshaft Message-ID: <4973124A867048C3BD9E670C549B7BEF@dim8100> Well I guess the first thing would be some definitions. FORGED: is a steel billet (or blank, or bar) that has been heated and forged into a near net shape with final machining into a finished product. Sizes are restricted to available dies. Due to the expense, dies are only created for popular demand and volume. Since the greatest volume is for a stroked anything, I know of no forging dies for de-stroked sizes in any brand engine. If anybody knows of a de-stroked FORGING, please let me know because I will buy one. BILLET: is a bar of steel that has been machined into a finished product. Billet is used when a forging is NOT available for the stroke you want. You go to billet only if a forging is not available. If you have a billet crank, by definition, it is already the finished size you want and welding is not required. If you found a used, CHEAP, billet in the wrong size for your application and wanted to de-stroke it by welding, that would be ill-advised. See below. Yes, I had a welded de-stroked (2.625") SBC in 1979. That is my disclaimer and the technology, most assuredly, has improved. So YMMV. The problem with welding is unknown metallurgy (both the crank and the filler rod) but more importantly, inclusions, or discontinuities. By that I mean small pit holes on the ground journal. On my crank I found the fillets on both sides of the journal to not be perfect and an occasional small pit on the ground surface of the journal. I was told these imperfections would not matter. Truth be told, the crank never failed because my poor choice of rods failed before the crank could. In those days welding was 25% the cost of a billet. Cost was the deciding factor. With CNC technology today (and its cost savings) I wouldn't even consider welding. A billet costs the same (or slightly less) today than it did in 1979. ($1.6K - $2.2k). When you say "cast" it can be steel or iron. Welding an iron crank is not done. Welding cast steel is possible but unwise because it is not cost effective and has the same problems mentioned above. Generally, common forgings will always have a greater fatigue life and a marginal strength advantage over a billet. However, not all alloys are forgeable. Therefore, a billet gives you an unlimited choice in alloys and heat treatment. Along with CNC machining, some argue that a billet is as strong as a forging. That might be true if you could pick an esoteric alloy and had a big budget . . . but you don't. However, the strength difference between the two technologies is irrelevant for you. De-stroking is bringing the centerline of the mains and the journals CLOSER TOGETHER. Simple geometry is going to give you all the strength you need. Buy a billet and rest in peace. From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Feb 21 00:07:30 2011 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:07:30 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> References: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4D620F32.8090507@wildblue.net> What displacement is your target Mayf? Ford made 221 and 260 Windsors, but the 221 is a collectors item and 260 are almost as rare. I would call several engine builders and see if they can help you. Given enough money, of course, any large machine shop could do the job. The biggest problem is finding a set of shop blueprints that can be used to set up the CNC equipment. A thought, find someone who makes billet 289 cranks and see if the could alter the CNC setup to give you the stroke you need. Welding a cast crank is a lost art. Back in the '60's and '70's there were 2 or 3 guys that could do it. As I recall. you had to keep the entire crank at around 800 or 900 degrees and then let it cool overnight. Bryan From dahlgren536 at comcast.net Mon Feb 21 09:59:42 2011 From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:59:42 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> References: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <997633D600014E0D9F0D239B19168220@DaveSatellite> There are lots of smaller displacemet high performance engines available without jumping through the destroke hoop. Very short stroke big bore engines seldom make much in the way of power unless you have a very large budget so why bother in the end? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Mayfield" To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 1:34 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... >I have been toying around with an idea for a new motor for my Sunbeam. But >it would require a destroked crank to meet the displacement goals. I have >been searching around for such cranks and they are pretty rare. Some are >apparently used in a Nascar class somewhere which has a displacement limit. >I know about off set grinding to either stroke or destroke abit. But, even >with a brand new crank, I would not be able to get there. So, my >question... I know cranks can be welded up and reground. But how much can >that be used? If I wanted to take a crank down with a stroke difference of >say 1/2 inch? That seems like a LOT, lol, as it would require a 1/4 inch or >more of buildup on the inside of the rod throw. Even if I started with a >289 ford crank it would still be a lot. And is that even doable with a >cast crank? I would expect it to be ok on a forged steel or billet crank, >though. > > I'd like some responses from folk who have actually had something like > this done. Suggestions of changing motor blocks etc are not what I am > looking for. > > And I am just fiddling around now. The Sunbeam may never run again as a > race car..and that would no doubt please a LOT of people, lol... > > mayf From v4gmr at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 10:49:14 2011 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:49:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <4D620F32.8090507@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <568219.28888.qm@web39424.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As fvar as the 260 being rare. If you want a block and crank from a '63 1/3 Falcon sprint 260. Drop on by. Free for the hauling. RF --- On Sun, 2/20/11, Bryan Savage wrote: From: Bryan Savage Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... To: drmayf at mayfco.com Cc: "land-speed at autox.team.net" Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 11:07 PM What displacement is your target Mayf? Ford made 221 and 260 Windsors, but the 221 is a collectors item and 260 are almost as rare. I would call several engine builders and see if they can help you. Given enough money, of course, any large machine shop could do the job. The biggest problem is finding a set of shop blueprints that can be used to set up the CNC equipment. A thought, find someone who makes billet 289 cranks and see if the could alter the CNC setup to give you the stroke you need. Welding a cast crank is a lost art. Back in the '60's and '70's there were 2 or 3 guys that could do it. As I recall. you had to keep the entire crank at around 800 or 900 degrees and then let it cool overnight. Bryan _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/v4gmr at yahoo.com From adin at frontier.net Mon Feb 21 14:33:44 2011 From: adin at frontier.net (David) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 14:33:44 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <568219.28888.qm@web39424.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <568219.28888.qm@web39424.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <352DECA4-E5BC-4A37-AF14-279B71A756E9@frontier.net> IIRC (if I remember correctly ) the 221, 260, 289 all had the same stroke- one might verify this before getting too excited. As far as other motors, some may have decades of time/money invested in Ford junk haha. On Feb 21, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Rich Fox wrote: > As fvar as the 260 being rare. If you want a block and crank from a '63 1/3 > Falcon sprint 260. Drop on by. Free for the hauling. RF > > --- On Sun, 2/20/11, Bryan Savage wrote: > > > From: Bryan Savage > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... > To: drmayf at mayfco.com > Cc: "land-speed at autox.team.net" > Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 11:07 PM > > > What displacement is your target Mayf? > Ford made 221 and 260 Windsors, but the 221 is a collectors item and 260 are > almost as rare. > > I would call several engine builders and see if they can help you. Given > enough money, of course, > any large machine shop could do the job. The biggest problem is finding a set > of shop blueprints > that can be used to set up the CNC equipment. > > A thought, find someone who makes billet 289 cranks and see if the could alter > the CNC setup > to give you the stroke you need. > > Welding a cast crank is a lost art. Back in the '60's and '70's there were 2 > or 3 guys that could do it. > As I recall. you had to keep the entire crank at around 800 or 900 degrees and > then let it cool overnight. > > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/v4gmr at yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/adin at frontier.net From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Feb 21 21:04:37 2011 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 20:04:37 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <352DECA4-E5BC-4A37-AF14-279B71A756E9@frontier.net> References: <568219.28888.qm@web39424.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <352DECA4-E5BC-4A37-AF14-279B71A756E9@frontier.net> Message-ID: <4D6335D5.4030407@wildblue.net> Correct. They are all ste same stroke. David wrote: > IIRC (if I remember correctly ) the 221, 260, 289 all had the same stroke- one might verify this before getting too excited. > As far as other motors, some may have decades of time/money invested in Ford junk haha. > > On Feb 21, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Rich Fox wrote: > > >> As fvar as the 260 being rare. If you want a block and crank from a '63 1/3 >> Falcon sprint 260. Drop on by. Free for the hauling. RF >> >> --- On Sun, 2/20/11, Bryan Savage wrote: >> >> >> From: Bryan Savage >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... >> To: drmayf at mayfco.com >> Cc: "land-speed at autox.team.net" >> Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 11:07 PM >> >> >> What displacement is your target Mayf? >> Ford made 221 and 260 Windsors, but the 221 is a collectors item and 260 are >> almost as rare. >> >> I would call several engine builders and see if they can help you. Given >> enough money, of course, >> any large machine shop could do the job. The biggest problem is finding a set >> of shop blueprints >> that can be used to set up the CNC equipment. >> >> A thought, find someone who makes billet 289 cranks and see if the could alter >> the CNC setup >> to give you the stroke you need. >> >> Welding a cast crank is a lost art. Back in the '60's and '70's there were 2 >> or 3 guys that could do it. >> As I recall. you had to keep the entire crank at around 800 or 900 degrees and >> then let it cool overnight. >> >> >> Bryan >> _______________________________________________ >> Land-speed at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/v4gmr at yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Land-speed at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive >> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/adin at frontier.net From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Feb 22 07:45:32 2011 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:45:32 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> References: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <20110222144527.3705918764C@autox.team.net> Easier and more economical to sleeve and pin all eight or even just a couple of cylinders. As far as the crank is concerned, you might offset grind it and chrome it back to -.20. Skip At 10:34 AM 2/20/2011, Larry Mayfield wrote: >I have been toying around with an idea for a new motor for my Sunbeam. >But it would require a destroked crank to meet the displacement >goals. I have been searching around for such cranks and they are >pretty rare. Some are apparently used in a Nascar class somewhere >which has a displacement limit. I know about off set grinding to >either stroke or destroke abit. But, even with a brand new crank, I >would not be able to get there. So, my question... I know cranks >can be welded up and reground. But how much can that be used? If I >wanted to take a crank down with a stroke difference of say 1/2 >inch? That seems like a LOT, lol, as it would require a 1/4 inch or >more of buildup on the inside of the rod throw. Even if I started >with a 289 ford crank it would still be a lot. And is that even >doable with a cast crank? I would expect it to be ok on a forged >steel or billet crank, though. > >I'd like some responses from folk who have actually had something >like this done. Suggestions of changing motor blocks etc are not >what I am looking for. > >And I am just fiddling around now. The Sunbeam may never run again >as a race car..and that would no doubt please a LOT of people, lol... > >mayf From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Feb 22 07:46:32 2011 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:46:32 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... Message-ID: <20110222144626.72A2B18764A@autox.team.net> Easier and more economical to sleeve and pin all eight or even just a couple of cylinders. As far as the crank is concerned, you might offset grind it and chrome it back to -.020. Skip At 10:34 AM 2/20/2011, Larry Mayfield wrote: >I have been toying around with an idea for a new motor for my Sunbeam. >But it would require a destroked crank to meet the displacement >goals. I have been searching around for such cranks and they are >pretty rare. Some are apparently used in a Nascar class somewhere >which has a displacement limit. I know about off set grinding to >either stroke or destroke abit. But, even with a brand new crank, I >would not be able to get there. So, my question... I know cranks >can be welded up and reground. But how much can that be used? If I >wanted to take a crank down with a stroke difference of say 1/2 >inch? That seems like a LOT, lol, as it would require a 1/4 inch or >more of buildup on the inside of the rod throw. Even if I started >with a 289 ford crank it would still be a lot. And is that even >doable with a cast crank? I would expect it to be ok on a forged >steel or billet crank, though. > >I'd like some responses from folk who have actually had something >like this done. Suggestions of changing motor blocks etc are not >what I am looking for. > >And I am just fiddling around now. The Sunbeam may never run again >as a race car..and that would no doubt please a LOT of people, lol... > >mayf From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Tue Feb 22 09:28:39 2011 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:28:39 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... References: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> <997633D600014E0D9F0D239B19168220@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <355C5E2AE9B14CA98E67FAFD5EF2271B@Rick> Dave, could you be a little more specific. In a naturally aspirated engine, lets say a 4" bore with a 2" or 2.5" stroke. I would also assume compression of around 15:1. Push rod, and valve train technology improved so much in the past ten years, running the engine to higher speeds should not be an issue, and many of us are already using expensive lightweight components. What dynamics would prevent making really good power. Serious question. I'm not trying to be a smart ass. From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 10:02:22 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:02:22 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] NZ Hot Rod chat list / earthquake Message-ID: <36A12ECC-22BD-4D41-9A36-336B74B45A5B@comcast.net> Posted this on Landracing.com early this morning but some may want to check on friends. Some links don't work, likely due to quake damage. From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 11:06:20 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:06:20 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link Message-ID: http://www.nz-hotrod.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?5747-Big-quake-in-Christch From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Feb 22 11:17:37 2011 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:17:37 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... Message-ID: <4D63FDC1.9040003@mayfco.com> All, Skip, sleeving now is reasonably expensive. You folk have no idea what I am thinking about for the destroked crank, the use there of. I don't want a V6 motor. Sleeving two cylinders and using a 289 Ford crank does not get me where I want to be. A hint, some drag races using ford small blocks are using the destroked cranks to make a high winding motor that has enjoyed some success, or at least I am told that. drag racing...hmmmm I do want to thank everyone who did respond to the actual question though. And that was the practice of welding up a crank so that it's stroke could be changed, either more or less. There were not many of you who did that though. Your answers confirmed my suspicions that this was not necessarily a good practice to follow. I was not leaning that way but had had some folk chime in that it could be done quite easily and was a good choice. Maybe if no other solution is available at all.. mayf On 2/22/2011 6:46 AM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > > > Easier and more economical to sleeve and pin all eight or even just a > couple of cylinders. As far as the crank is concerned, you might > offset grind it and chrome it back to -.020. > > Skip > > > > > > > > > At 10:34 AM 2/20/2011, Larry Mayfield wrote: >> I have been toying around with an idea for a new motor for my Sunbeam. >> But it would require a destroked crank to meet the displacement >> goals. I have been searching around for such cranks and they are >> pretty rare. Some are apparently used in a Nascar class somewhere >> which has a displacement limit. I know about off set grinding to >> either stroke or destroke abit. But, even with a brand new crank, I >> would not be able to get there. So, my question... I know cranks can >> be welded up and reground. But how much can that be used? If I >> wanted to take a crank down with a stroke difference of say 1/2 inch? >> That seems like a LOT, lol, as it would require a 1/4 inch or more of >> buildup on the inside of the rod throw. Even if I started with a >> 289 ford crank it would still be a lot. And is that even doable with >> a cast crank? I would expect it to be ok on a forged steel or billet >> crank, though. >> >> I'd like some responses from folk who have actually had something >> like this done. Suggestions of changing motor blocks etc are not >> what I am looking for. >> >> And I am just fiddling around now. The Sunbeam may never run again as >> a race car..and that would no doubt please a LOT of people, lol... >> >> mayf From dahlgren536 at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 11:18:37 2011 From: dahlgren536 at comcast.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... In-Reply-To: <355C5E2AE9B14CA98E67FAFD5EF2271B@Rick> References: <4D615E9D.5050406@mayfco.com> <997633D600014E0D9F0D239B19168220@DaveSatellite> <355C5E2AE9B14CA98E67FAFD5EF2271B@Rick> Message-ID: <4ED6304154014DC897E12101C66F7A09@DaveSatellite> Without turning this into either an essay or debate.... first the odds of making 15/1 CR in a pushrod anything with a 4" bore and 2" stroke are probably worse than winning Powerball. Second the block deck heights are generally designed around a 1.6 to 1.8 rod ratio with the original stroke as it is in the range that will make a broad power band and support various displacements with 10 or 15% of the original easily. If you have a 3.5 stroke with a 6" rod the ratio a very nice 1.71 now with the 2" stroke that rod needs to be only 3.42 inches long. It will pretty hard to connect things with that short a rod or even clear crank counter weights. Most 2" stroke engines with a 4" bore would probably have to run in 11000 to 14000 rpm range to generate enough velocity in commonly available cylinder heads used for more common 3 to 3.5" strokes even worse the rod ratios needed to connect the piston to the crank and reach the top of the deck will be both crazy long and heavy something a very high RPM engine needs to avoid. The problems are numerious and the real cost just not justified unless the only goal is to make it start up and happy that it runs is enough. The main issue is the entire geometry gets all out of wack if that is an engineering term... everything done to connect the various parts just becomes one band-aid sort of fix after another. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Byrnes" To: "Dave Dahlgren" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... > Dave, could you be a little more specific. > > In a naturally aspirated engine, lets say a 4" bore with a 2" or 2.5" > stroke. > I would also assume compression of around 15:1. > > Push rod, and valve train technology improved so much in the past ten > years, running the engine to higher speeds should not be an issue, and > many of us are already using expensive lightweight components. > > What dynamics would prevent making really good power. > > Serious question. I'm not trying to be a smart ass. From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 11:34:13 2011 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:34:13 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] From a N Z hot rodder Message-ID: <510D8A91-967B-48E8-BA24-ACD2CC5DA58C@comcast.net> Yes officer I did see the speed limit sign....I just didn't see you. From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Tue Feb 22 12:19:05 2011 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 14:19:05 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Destroking a Crankshaft... References: <4D63FDC1.9040003@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Doc My answer to your original question, is why not. If you find an existing forging or billet, there is no reason that it cannot be done reliably. I did some cast cranks for ford about 25 years ago that were welded, heat treated, nitrided and ground. They were not extremely durable, but then no cast iron crank is. These iron cranks we welded did well enough as prototypes to get test vehicles running quickly. From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Tue Feb 22 12:44:09 2011 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:44:09 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D641209.5020408@wildblue.net> I haven't heard back from Chris Harris yet. I sure hope he and his family are OK. If anyone hears from him, please let me know. Bryan Wester Potter wrote: > http://www.nz-hotrod.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?5747-Big-quake-in-Christch > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/b.a.savage at wildblue.net From v4gmr at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 14:09:51 2011 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link In-Reply-To: <4D641209.5020408@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <982407.41246.qm@web39422.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is he on the South Island? When I was there the South Island seemed to be pretty rural. --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Bryan Savage wrote: From: Bryan Savage Subject: Re: [Land-speed] N Z link To: "Wester Potter" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 11:44 AM I haven't heard back from Chris Harris yet. I sure hope he and his family are OK. If anyone hears from him, please let me know. Bryan Wester Potter wrote: > http://www.nz-hotrod.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?5747-Big-quake-in-Christch > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/b.a.savage at wildblue.net _______________________________________________ Land-speed at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/archive Forums: http://www.team.net/forums Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/v4gmr at yahoo.com From lft at clear.net.nz Tue Feb 22 14:25:20 2011 From: lft at clear.net.nz (lft at clear.net.nz) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:25:20 +1300 Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link Message-ID: <4d6429c0.26a.115d.15755@clear.net.nz> Hi guys, Chris and family are up in Hawkes Bay which is in the North Island of NZ. The quake is in Christchurch down in the south. Cheers, Nigel....also in HB ----- Original Message Follows ----- > I haven't heard back from Chris Harris yet. I sure hope he > and his family are OK. > If anyone hears from him, please let me know. > Bryan > > Wester Potter wrote: > > > http://www.nz-hotrod.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?5747-Big-quake-in-Christch > > _______________________________________________ > > Land-speed at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/b.a.savage at wildblue.net > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/lft at clear.net.nz From yesford at clear.net.nz Tue Feb 22 14:40:21 2011 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris R Harris) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:40:21 +1300 Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link In-Reply-To: <4D641209.5020408@wildblue.net> References: <4D641209.5020408@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <7B4B145AE6684306BED31F0D1B92795C@HarrisPC> > I haven't heard back from Chris Harris yet. I sure hope he and his family > are OK. > If anyone hears from him, please let me know. > Bryan All fine here, I live in the middle of the North Is on the east coast. Christchurch is middle of South Is, also on the east coast. This is their 2nd quake in recent times so lots of heavy equipment on hand, civil defense organisation doing great job and authorities in general have situation well under control. Wes circulated the NZ Hot Rod magazine, forum web address, which has details from rodders in the area. Chris Harris...........NZed. From 23.weldon at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 23:20:30 2011 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (23weldon) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:20:30 -0800 Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link References: <4D641209.5020408@wildblue.net> <7B4B145AE6684306BED31F0D1B92795C@HarrisPC> Message-ID: Chris - I really feel for you guys. Life just turned into a big mess for a lot of good people down there. >From what I read and see Christchurch experienced about the same hit that we took in 1989 where I live in California in the Richter 6.9 1989 Loma Prieta quake. Our hillside house was 5 miles from the epicenter and 7 miles from the hypocenter underground. The shock waves came up an angle, lifted my 1200 pound milling machine off the floor and put everything else in my shop on the floor a meter deep. My welding tanks fell against the driver's door of my 32 and made a mess out of it. Other than that the cars and shop were a mess but very little was broken. The house was hit hard and took about $50K damage. Took 3 years to finish the fixing,the first year and a half were spent waiting for the local county planning department to lift the ban on rebuilding in our neighborhood. I don't know how such things go in your country but if it is anything like here in California my advice if your home is damaged is to do anything you can to keep officials and any other nosy good samaritans away from your house and property. That includes media types and university students or volunteers doing damage surveys. Us guys who build cars have a pretty good idea what is dangerous and what isn't and can usually react appropriately. I was lucky. I live 130 meters from the street down a hill and behind trees. No officials came by my place to look. A couple of university geology students showed up a week later and said they were recording signs of land movement and fissures and such. OK with naive me. There was one 5 meter long by a third of a meter wide and one meter deep crack in a hillside spot 75 feet west of the house. This was an area that had been filled a couple of meters deep when the house was built. When the county building officials paraded around a map of "geologic hazards" in our area 6 months later the crack was drawn as a major land collapse several times the actual size right next to the house. And it was official gospel with the county geologist's signature on it. You may want to pass along my account here to friends on the South Island. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris R Harris" To: "Bryan Savage" ; "Wester Potter" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] N Z link > All fine here, I live in the middle of the North Is on the east coast. > Christchurch is middle of South Is, also on the east coast. > This is their 2nd quake in recent times so lots of heavy equipment on > hand, civil defense organisation doing great job and authorities in > general have situation well under control. ................. > Chris Harris...........NZed. From yesford at clear.net.nz Wed Feb 23 13:55:33 2011 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris R Harris) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 09:55:33 +1300 Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link In-Reply-To: References: <4D641209.5020408@wildblue.net> <7B4B145AE6684306BED31F0D1B92795C@HarrisPC> Message-ID: <9EA4E44C1E05438BBC02C25AB8426802@HarrisPC> To everyone on our list, many thanks for your inquiry and sympathy toward those caught up in this recent disaster that occurred in New Zealand's 2nd largest city of Christchurch. We are totally unaffected due to our distance but are kept up to date with ongoing TV reports. Best I can say is, all authorities & organisations involved are doing an outstanding job, but nonetheless we are all traumatised by the event. These quakes are a way of life for all living on the so-called Pacific 'ring of fire' which includes your own California coast. Here is a link to fairly graphic, recent pictures. http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/02/earthquake-in-new-zealand/100013/Many thanks once again.Harris Family,Hawke's Bay.New Zealand.> Chris - I really feel for you guys. Life just turned into a big mess fora lot of good people down there.> From what I read and see Christchurch experienced about the same hit thatwe took in 1989 where I live in California in the Richter 6.9 1989 LomaPrieta quake. Our hillside house was 5 miles from the epicenter and 7 milesfrom the hypocenter underground. The shock waves came up an angle, liftedmy 1200 pound milling machine off the floor and put everything else in myshop on the floor a meter deep. My welding tanks fell against the driver'sdoor of my 32 and made a mess out of it. Other than that the cars and shopwere a mess but very little was broken. The house was hit hard and tookabout $50K damage. Took 3 years to finish the fixing,the first year and ahalf were spent waiting for the local county planning department to lift theban on rebui From neil at dbelltech.com Wed Feb 23 14:51:06 2011 From: neil at dbelltech.com (Neil Albaugh) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:51:06 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] N Z link In-Reply-To: <9EA4E44C1E05438BBC02C25AB8426802@HarrisPC> References: <4D641209.5020408@wildblue.net><7B4B145AE6684306BED31F0D1B92795C@HarrisPC> <9EA4E44C1E05438BBC02C25AB8426802@HarrisPC> Message-ID: Chris; It was heartbreaking to see the damage in Christchurch and to hear how many casualties the earthquake caused. I was in Christchurch a few years ago and found it to be a charming city. The old stone Cathedral was picturesque; it is sad to see it in ruins today. All the best to you, although we all know that Kiwis are a tough, resilient people. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Chris R Harris" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 1:55 PM To: "23weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "Bryan Savage" ; "Wester Potter" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" Subject: Re: [Land-speed] N Z link > To everyone on our list, many thanks for your inquiry and sympathy toward > those caught up in this recent disaster that occurred in New Zealand's 2nd > largest city of Christchurch. > We are totally unaffected due to our distance but are kept up to date with > ongoing TV reports. Best I can say is, all authorities & organisations > involved are doing an outstanding job, but nonetheless we are all > traumatised by the event. These quakes are a way of life for all living on > the so-called Pacific 'ring of fire' which includes your own California > coast. > > Here is a link to fairly graphic, recent pictures. > http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/02/earthquake-in-new-zealand/100013/Many > thanks once again.Harris Family,Hawke's Bay.New Zealand.> Chris - I really > feel for you guys. Life just turned into a big mess fora lot of good > people down there.> From what I read and see Christchurch experienced > about the same hit thatwe took in 1989 where I live in California in the > Richter 6.9 1989 LomaPrieta quake. Our hillside house was 5 miles from > the epicenter and 7 milesfrom the hypocenter underground. The shock waves > came up an angle, liftedmy 1200 pound milling machine off the floor and > put everything else in myshop on the floor a meter deep. My welding tanks > fell against the driver'sdoor of my 32 and made a mess out of it. Other > than that the cars and shopwere a mess but very little was broken. The > house was hit hard and tookabout $50K damage. Took 3 years to finish the > fixing,the first year and ahalf were spent waiting for the local county > planning department to lift theban on rebui > _______________________________________________ > Land-speed at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/archive > Forums: http://www.team.net/forums > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/land-speed/neil at dbelltech.com