From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jun 1 08:09:41 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 07:09:41 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Final SUnbeam Alignment Questions... Message-ID: <4A23E125.3050004@mayfco.com> Thanks to everyone who responded. First I learned a number of things: that camber should be held as close to zero as possible, toe should be a minimum as can be but err on the toe in side with numbers in the range of 1/16 - 1/8 inch total in (never ever toe out! ), Scrub radius needs some as neutral scrub will leave you feel directionless, significant amounts of caster are useful but caster stagger is not, bump steer is to be eliminated. So those are the targets I am shooting for. Here are remaining two questions First is what kind of tolerance should a shade tree kinda guy shoot for on the settings? When I look at my old Sunbeam shop manual they give setting sometimes in arc seconds for crying out loud. This was mid sixties. I wont be buying a laser alignment set up lol. So what is generally good on the salt? And hopefully lastly, thrust angle alignment. There are two components of this, one is rear end angularity or which way is the rear pointed and second is even with perfect perpendicularity, the rear can be off set some (just watch those nascar car!). Right now, the rear end is as perfectly centered in the frame as I can make it. But with adjustable 4 link it is completely possible to be centered and yet still have a small amount of thrust angle misalignment. I did what I thought was a good job, but how to accutately check the angle? Centering is not all that hard to do. Comments? Advice? After the old geezer technology conference this morning, I have a couple of questions regarding front steering design and setup. Just for continuity of discussion. Many thanks! mayf heading out to the technology conference.... From advo at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 08:48:51 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:48:51 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <4A23E125.3050004@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open well-built, well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to Wendover. I have a fairly clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with the 460 ci motor. If I were to make it safe for modern gas and add some heavy springs, truck tires, electric brake setup (and a stout hitch) is there some reason it still wouldn9t do the job that a pickup would? From dlodom at charter.net Mon Jun 1 09:50:24 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:50:24 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Final SUnbeam Alignment Questions... References: <4A23E125.3050004@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <003101c9e2d0$ae124e40$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Mayf, All you really need is a camber/caster gage, flat floor, 2 pieces of string and a tape measure. You can do it without a camber/caster gage but it is more time and work to use a bubble level to make sure the caster is the same on both sides. I have set cars up like that for years. A friend had an alignment shop and would check it for me for free. After the second time he said I was wasting my time bringing it down to him at the shop as we never had to change anything. Big ditch Doug > Thanks to everyone who responded. First I learned a number of things: that > camber should be held as close to zero as possible, toe should be a > minimum as can be but err on the toe in side with numbers in the range of > 1/16 - 1/8 inch total in (never ever toe out! ), Scrub radius needs some > as neutral scrub will leave you feel directionless, significant amounts of > caster are useful but caster stagger is not, bump steer is to be > eliminated. So those are the targets I am shooting for. Here are > remaining two questions > > First is what kind of tolerance should a shade tree kinda guy shoot for on > the settings? When I look at my old Sunbeam shop manual they give setting > sometimes in arc seconds for crying out loud. This was mid sixties. I wont > be buying a laser alignment set up lol. So what is generally good on the > salt? > > And hopefully lastly, thrust angle alignment. There are two components of > this, one is rear end angularity or which way is the rear pointed and > second is even with perfect perpendicularity, the rear can be off set some > (just watch those nascar car!). Right now, the rear end is as perfectly > centered in the frame as I can make it. But with adjustable 4 link it is > completely possible to be centered and yet still have a small amount of > thrust angle misalignment. I did what I thought was a good job, but how to > accutately check the angle? Centering is not all that hard to do. > > Comments? Advice? From ddahlgren at snet.net Mon Jun 1 09:58:13 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:58:13 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> I would at least add transmission cooler to th list.. And plan on really taking your time.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Meyers" To: "'land Speed List'" Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car > Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open > well-built, > well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to Wendover. I have a > fairly > clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with the 460 ci motor. If I were > to > make it safe for modern gas and add some heavy springs, truck tires, > electric brake setup (and a stout hitch) is there some reason it still > wouldn9t do the job that a pickup would? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Mon Jun 1 10:00:22 2009 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:00:22 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: Trans cooler absolutely. Maybe a trans temp gauge, too? -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave Dahlgren Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:58 AM To: Greg Meyers; 'land Speed List' Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a race car I would at least add transmission cooler to th list.. And plan on really taking your time.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Meyers" To: "'land Speed List'" Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car > Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open > well-built, well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to > Wendover. I have a fairly clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with > the 460 ci motor. If I were to make it safe for modern gas and add > some heavy springs, truck tires, electric brake setup (and a stout > hitch) is there some reason it still wouldn9t do the job that a pickup > would? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From lsrvette at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 10:35:55 2009 From: lsrvette at yahoo.com (John Staiger) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:35:55 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> Although not even close to cheap, I would look at a Hensley hitch (www dot Hensleymfg dot com) to eliminate the sway. Their target market is large cars pulling heavy trailers. Their demo unit is a Cadillac pulling a 10K pound, tri-axle Airstream. Might check ebay... JLS -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Adin, David Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:00 PM To: Dave Dahlgren; Greg Meyers; land Speed List Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a race car Trans cooler absolutely. Maybe a trans temp gauge, too? -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave Dahlgren Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:58 AM To: Greg Meyers; 'land Speed List' Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a race car I would at least add transmission cooler to th list.. And plan on really taking your time.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Meyers" To: "'land Speed List'" Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car > Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open > well-built, well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to > Wendover. I have a fairly clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with > the 460 ci motor. If I were to make it safe for modern gas and add > some heavy springs, truck tires, electric brake setup (and a stout > hitch) is there some reason it still wouldn9t do the job that a pickup > would? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as lsrvette at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From karhu at california.com Mon Jun 1 11:06:23 2009 From: karhu at california.com (Benn) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:06:23 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car References: Message-ID: <3E0249ECAB284E55AA3E3AC298934357@BennsDesktop> I used to tow my C2 'vette race car (about 4000# with trailer) with another C2 (about 3200#). Worked fine. Coulda used a deeper first gear, but no real problem. Be SURE that the trailer tongue load is adequate though. Had a very close escape from destruction by towing another trailer that was too light on the tongue. Benn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Meyers" To: "'land Speed List'" Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:48 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car > Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open > well-built, > well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to Wendover. I have a > fairly > clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with the 460 ci motor. If I were > to > make it safe for modern gas and add some heavy springs, truck tires, > electric brake setup (and a stout hitch) is there some reason it still > wouldn9t do the job that a pickup would? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as karhu at california.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From advo at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 12:03:17 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:03:17 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <3E0249ECAB284E55AA3E3AC298934357@BennsDesktop> Message-ID: So, maybe a consensus is that it can work if: Car is equipped with adequate springs, electric brakes, good hitch and transmission cooler/gauge And I watch tranny temp And I make sure there is adequate tongue weight And I promise to detail the car upon return to Minnesota...... Thanks Greg On 6/1/09 12:06 PM, "Benn" wrote: > I used to tow my C2 'vette race car (about 4000# with trailer) with another > C2 (about 3200#). Worked fine. Coulda used a deeper first gear, but no > real problem. Be SURE that the trailer tongue load is adequate though. Had > a very close escape from destruction by towing another trailer that was too > light on the tongue. > Benn > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Meyers" > To: "'land Speed List'" > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:48 AM > Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car > > >> Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open >> well-built, >> well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to Wendover. I have a >> fairly >> clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with the 460 ci motor. If I were >> to >> make it safe for modern gas and add some heavy springs, truck tires, >> electric brake setup (and a stout hitch) is there some reason it still >> wouldn9t do the job that a pickup would? >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Land-speed mailing list >> >> You are subscribed as karhu at california.com >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as advo at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From lsr_man at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 12:31:35 2009 From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Towing A Race Car Message-ID: <200903.94316.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I go along with that. A weight distribution - anti-sway hitch of some kind would be essential. Electric trailer brakes are also an absolute necessity. You'll also need good heavy springs - boosters on the back and the transmission cooler (don't get one of the cheapies - spend a couple extra bucks for a good one). Once you get set up, experiment with the race car on the trailer in different positions. i've found that moving the car a few inches back or forth can make a world of difference. I have one set of marks on the trailer for a "basic load" of fifteen gallons of race fuel and two small jacks; and a different set of marks if I'm carrying 25 gallons of race fuel and the big floor jack. You will have to plan on taking your time. You're giving up some wheelbase by using a car instead of a truck. Several years ago, I towed my race car with a Dodge Ramcharger - - not fun! DickJ In East Texas From joetimney at dol.net Mon Jun 1 15:25:34 2009 From: joetimney at dol.net (Joe Timney) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:25:34 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK] Re: Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> <025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> Message-ID: <4A24474E.5040203@dol.net> John, I would suggest that you use a sway bar and torque arms...I have towed with a Caddie with a 5500 lb trailer without a single problem. John Staiger wrote: > Although not even close to cheap, I would look at a Hensley hitch (www dot > Hensleymfg dot com) to eliminate the sway. Their target market is large > cars pulling heavy trailers. Their demo unit is a Cadillac pulling a 10K > pound, tri-axle Airstream. Might check ebay... > > JLS From lsrvette at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 15:09:18 2009 From: lsrvette at yahoo.com (John Staiger) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:09:18 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK] Re: Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <4A24474E.5040203@dol.net> References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> <025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> <4A24474E.5040203@dol.net> Message-ID: <028701c9e2fd$43fb5d80$cbf21880$@com> Joe, I agree, I always use torque arms (load levelers) and a sway bar. I have used both CAM style and Friction type anti-sway bars without noticing a big difference, however I assumed that after Steve loaded the car with a toolbox, jack and misc. he would be a lot heaver than 5,500 lbs and a Pullrite or Hensley make a big difference when you get over weight as they change the center of pivot from beyond rear bumper to the rear axle. Both virtually eliminate yaw. I'm not saying you can't haul without them, but if you have the money, it makes a huge difference in the mountains with a 40MPH cross wind... Somehow the longer the haul, the heavier the trailer... JLS -----Original Message----- From: Joe Timney [mailto:joetimney at dol.net] Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:26 PM To: John Staiger; LAND SPEED LIST Subject: Re: [BULK] Re: [Land-speed] Towing a race car John, I would suggest that you use a sway bar and torque arms...I have towed with a Caddie with a 5500 lb trailer without a single problem. John Staiger wrote: > Although not even close to cheap, I would look at a Hensley hitch (www dot > Hensleymfg dot com) to eliminate the sway. Their target market is large > cars pulling heavy trailers. Their demo unit is a Cadillac pulling a 10K > pound, tri-axle Airstream. Might check ebay... > > JLS From joyseydevil at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 16:03:41 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:03:41 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car Message-ID: I posted this before . I think this is how trailer sway happens . The trailer sways to the right . The sway inertia is in the back of the trailer , the trailer tires act as a pivot and the hitch pushes left . The tow vehicle rear axle becomes a pivot which pushes right on the front wheels . The caster steers the front to the left which adds to the sway . There are several ways to reduce the double jack knife effect . High tongue weight - this moves the sway inertia toward the trailer axle so less side force on the hitch . 5th wheel hitches - the front wheels see zero side load . Less trailer or tow vehicle overhang , less leverage . Anything that dampens the pivoting of the hitch , lots of ways to do that . Less caster on the front wheels . A hitch like the Hensley that makes the effective hitch pivot point closer to the rear axel , lots of ways to do that and allow little tongue weight . > Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open > well-built, > well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to Wendover. I have a > fairly > clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with the 460 ci motor. If I were > to > make it safe for modern gas and add some heavy springs, truck tires, > electric brake setup (and a stout hitch) is there some reason it still > wouldn9t do the job that a pickup would? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as joyseydevil at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From gmc6power at earthlink.net Mon Jun 1 16:16:33 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car Message-ID: <6220598.1243894593745.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Why would you do that??? Just buy another one next year for $50.00 and transfer the towing parts. >And >I promise to detail the car upon return to Minnesota...... >Thanks >Greg From advo at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 17:20:21 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:20:21 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <6220598.1243894593745.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: To tow it correctly, the towing parts WILL be the most expensive things! Thanks All! On 6/1/09 5:16 PM, "James Tone" wrote: > Why would you do that??? Just buy another one next year for $50.00 and > transfer the towing parts. > >> And >> I promise to detail the car upon return to Minnesota...... >> Thanks >> Greg From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Mon Jun 1 17:36:12 2009 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:36:12 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine Message-ID: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org> The guys behind this company (www.nullgrav.com) are from up here, and the other day one of them cornered me and gave me his card. No, he said, after talking about the concept -- it isn't "perpetual motion" or snake oil. Take a look at the site and this video and you be the judge. Mayf, Bryan, everyone -- stop laughing. You'll shoot your drink out your nose. . . Jon Wennerberg Tall guy with moustache and a pair of 2 Club hats From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jun 1 18:40:10 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:10 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine In-Reply-To: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org> References: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org> Message-ID: <4A2474EA.80402@mayfco.com> Well, I guess the laws of the Universe have been repealed. But there is something interesting about the claims made on the web site... "A very small motor keeps the generator spinning continually, *which may produce far more energy* than it consumes." Several times, the phrase ' MAY produce more energy than it consumes." I gather from that than no detailed design analyses or data analyses have actually been conducted. I suspect that they are forgetting the energy that was used to charge the twin 6 volt batteries powering the small motor. I did not see that being recharged in the process. That is a net loss. Also no measurements of how much heat is being produced in the big coils. I think thi sis kinda like cold fusion, maybe in fact something going on but very difficult to make it pay off. Just remember entropy....everything runs down hill. Why do they invoke a name like Null Gravity? Tiz a sales gimick. Gravity not involved. Is Darpa jumping on baord? Also call them up and tell them that the sound on all their videos is junk. With speakers up enough on my desk to shatter diamond cannot but barely even hear what they say... I think it is bs. mayf Jon Wennerberg wrote: > The guys behind this company (www.nullgrav.com) are from up here, and > the other day one of them cornered me and gave me his card. No, he > said, after talking about the concept -- it isn't "perpetual motion" > or snake oil. Take a look at the site and this video and you be the > judge. > > Mayf, Bryan, everyone -- stop laughing. You'll shoot your drink out > your nose. . . > > Jon Wennerberg > Tall guy with moustache > and a pair of 2 Club hats > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From neil at dbelltech.com Mon Jun 1 18:55:03 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:55:03 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine In-Reply-To: <4A2474EA.80402@mayfco.com> References: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org> <4A2474EA.80402@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <60A863BB4FFF43DB9DBABCB3F234CCFA@DBTech> Mayf; Yep, P. T. Barnum was right! Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:40 PM To: Jon Wennerberg Cc: Land speed list Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine Well, I guess the laws of the Universe have been repealed. But there is something interesting about the claims made on the web site... "A very small motor keeps the generator spinning continually, *which may produce far more energy* than it consumes." Several times, the phrase ' MAY produce more energy than it consumes." I gather from that than no detailed design analyses or data analyses have actually been conducted. I suspect that they are forgetting the energy that was used to charge the twin 6 volt batteries powering the small motor. I did not see that being recharged in the process. That is a net loss. Also no measurements of how much heat is being produced in the big coils. I think thi sis kinda like cold fusion, maybe in fact something going on but very difficult to make it pay off. Just remember entropy....everything runs down hill. Why do they invoke a name like Null Gravity? Tiz a sales gimick. Gravity not involved. Is Darpa jumping on baord? Also call them up and tell them that the sound on all their videos is junk. With speakers up enough on my desk to shatter diamond cannot but barely even hear what they say... I think it is bs. mayf Jon Wennerberg wrote: > The guys behind this company (www.nullgrav.com) are from up here, and > the other day one of them cornered me and gave me his card. No, he > said, after talking about the concept -- it isn't "perpetual motion" > or snake oil. Take a look at the site and this video and you be the > judge. > > Mayf, Bryan, everyone -- stop laughing. You'll shoot your drink out > your nose. . . > > Jon Wennerberg > Tall guy with moustache > and a pair of 2 Club hats > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From 23.weldon at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 19:01:23 2009 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:01:23 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine References: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org> Message-ID: <000801c9e31d$a890fa00$6501a8c0@S> Jon -- THIS IS A PERPETUAL MOTION SCAM!! Don't get suckered in. If any governmental entity that you pay taxes to tries to lend or give any kind of material support other than what it is obligated by law to povide then go "man the barriers" and scream till they stop. Magnets don't contain energy any more than a rock contains energy if you lift it above your head. That's called "potential energy". You lift the rock off the ground with the energy that comes from glucose sugar in your blood which your muscles convert into work energy. Let go of the rock and try to catch it just as it falls back to the ground and part of the erergy you released cuts your finger. Now let's say that you have a big strong magnet sitting on your wood workbench. You move the magnet over toward your steel toolbox and get close enough and the magnet jumps toward the tool box. Now, say you decided to fool around with magnets and rocks after you've enjoyed a 6 pack of your favorite brew. Your hand just happened to be in the way of the magnet when it released the stored up energy it had by being separate from any steel and you got the same cut as you got from the rock hitting the ground. That's really all potential energy. Same with magnets or gravity in that respect. And by the way that kind of energy is a very small amount compared with the energy that is available from chemical sources or even our electrical grid. . And if there is any patent related to this thing it likely has to do with some novel way of designing a generator (thay may not work) to get a bit more efficiency or is just a pending patent. No, these guys are scamming to raise money so they can collect a salary for a year or two until teality catches up. BTW, thanks for your comments. Just now read them. Im in full agreement. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Wennerberg" To: "Land speed list" Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine > The guys behind this company (www.nullgrav.com) are from up here, and > the other day one of them cornered me and gave me his card. No, he > said, after talking about the concept -- it isn't "perpetual motion" > or snake oil. Take a look at the site and this video and you be the > judge. > > Mayf, Bryan, everyone -- stop laughing. You'll shoot your drink out > your nose. . . > > Jon Wennerberg > Tall guy with moustache > and a pair of 2 Club hats > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as 23.weldon at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ed at vetteracing.com Mon Jun 1 20:13:02 2009 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:13:02 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine Message-ID: Jon, Maybe you ought to stick to Porta Potties... An area where your expertise will go unchallenged, even by Mayf, Neil and Ed W. .......... I promise ;-) Ed V -----Original Message----- From: Ed Weldon [mailto:23.weldon at comcast.net] Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 06:01 PM To: 'Jon Wennerberg', 'Land speed list' Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine Jon -- THIS IS A PERPETUAL MOTION SCAM!! Don't get suckered in. If any governmental entity that you pay taxes to tries to lend or give any kind of material support other than what it is obligated by law to povide then go "man the barriers" and scream till they stop. Magnets don't contain energy any more than a rock contains energy if you lift it above your head. That's called "potential energy". You lift the rock off the ground with the energy that comes from glucose sugar in your blood which your muscles convert into work energy. Let go of the rock and try to catch it just as it falls back to the ground and part of the erergy you released cuts your finger. Now let's say that you have a big strong magnet sitting on your wood workbench. You move the magnet over toward your steel toolbox and get close enough and the magnet jumps toward the tool box. Now, say you decided to fool around with magnets and rocks after you've enjoyed a 6 pack of your favorite brew. Your hand just happened to be in the way of the magnet when it released the stored up energy it had by being separate from any steel and you got the same cut as you got from the rock hitting the ground. That's really all potential energy. Same with magnets or gravity in that respect. And by the way that kind of energy is a very small amount compared with the energy that is available from chemical sources or even our electrical grid. . And if there is any patent related to this thing it likely has to do with some novel way of designing a generator (thay may not work) to get a bit more efficiency or is just a pending patent. No, these guys are scamming to raise money so they can collect a salary for a year or two until teality catches up. BTW, thanks for your comments. Just now read them. Im in full agreement. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Wennerberg" To: "Land speed list" Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine > The guys behind this company (www.nullgrav.com) are from up here, and > the other day one of them cornered me and gave me his card. No, he > said, after talking about the concept -- it isn't "perpetual motion" > or snake oil. Take a look at the site and this video and you be the > judge. > > Mayf, Bryan, everyone -- stop laughing. You'll shoot your drink out > your nose. . . > > Jon Wennerberg > Tall guy with moustache > and a pair of 2 Club hats > From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 20:28:54 2009 From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 02:28:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual Motion Message-ID: <1312097573.11560321243909734332.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> It's my experience that patents are pretty easy to come by these days , just bring your wallet. From wayneyeats at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 20:53:08 2009 From: wayneyeats at yahoo.com (Wayne Yeats) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine Message-ID: <818658.81753.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Perhaps they could use the perpetual motion machine to power the "High-on-Crackmobile". Wayno From rbuck at xmission.com Mon Jun 1 21:10:48 2009 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:10:48 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual Motion In-Reply-To: <1312097573.11560321243909734332.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.west chester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1312097573.11560321243909734332.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: My grandfather claimed to have invented a perpetual motion machine in the 30s. He showed me his drawings in the early 50s. I just looked into it a bit since this discussion piqued my curiosity and it turns out to be the classic "overbalanced wheel" concept, first invented (supposedly) in the 8th century by an Indian Astronomer and then again around 1235 in France. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm#wheels And yeah, I remember cold fusion. A rather shameful day for the University of Utah. Bad day. RtR At 08:28 PM 6/1/2009, bobbyhotrods at comcast.net wrote: >It's my experience that patents are pretty easy to come by these >days , just bring your wallet. >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as rbuck at xmission.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From rbuck at xmission.com Mon Jun 1 21:11:51 2009 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:11:51 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual Motion Message-ID: My grandfather claimed to have invented a perpetual motion machine in the 30s. He showed me his drawings in the early 50s. I just looked into it a bit since this discussion piqued my curiosity and it turns out to be the classic "overbalanced wheel" concept, first invented (supposedly) in the 8th century by an Indian Astronomer and then again around 1235 in France. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm#wheels And yeah, I remember cold fusion. A rather shameful day for the University of Utah. Bad day. RtR At 08:28 PM 6/1/2009, bobbyhotrods at comcast.net wrote: >It's my experience that patents are pretty easy to come by these >days , just bring your wallet. From saltfever at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 21:31:44 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:31:44 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine Message-ID: <000501c9e332$a80a7f60$f81f7e20$@net> Patent number, please . . and the name of the examiner that would put their name to such gibberish! From saltfever at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 21:48:13 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:48:13 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual Motion Machine. Message-ID: <000a01c9e334$f50c0520$df240f60$@net> Here is the patent number. 7,327,061 Basically, pages of details and drawings can be summed up in the following patent text . . . Yawn!!! ". . . The invention allows a generator to be made out of a small number of components and at a reasonable expense. The invention may achieve good efficiency as secondary magnetic fields created by induction of current interfere little with the primary magnetic fields." Sorry about my premature posting. From sparky.2211 at cox.net Mon Jun 1 22:00:01 2009 From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (sparky.2211 at cox.net) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:00:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090602000001.72WYY.195342.imail@fed1rmwml31> Rear gears aand maybe cooling ---- Greg Meyers wrote: > Need to come up with vehicle to tow 3200 pound race car on open well-built, > well balanced 4 wheel trailer over the rockies to Wendover. I have a fairly > clean good running 1978 Lincoln Mark V with the 460 ci motor. If I were to > make it safe for modern gas and add some heavy springs, truck tires, > electric brake setup (and a stout hitch) is there some reason it still > wouldn9t do the job that a pickup would? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as sparky.2211 at cox.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfever at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 22:31:01 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:31:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car Message-ID: <001401c9e33a$f047dea0$d0d79be0$@net> 10% of the gross towed weight is what is usually recommended for tongue weight. For heavier trucks and loads it may sometimes be as much as 15%. I dislike air bags because there is no spring-constant. However, you will want the Lincoln to be perfectly level. Doing so puts the proper weight distribution back on the FRONT axle. The problem with the Lincoln is the long "overhang" distance from the rear axle. Air bags may be an easy way you can "fine-tune" to get the car level after everything is loaded. All the recommendations are spot on, especially the need for sway control or weight distribution hitch. A weight distribution hitch greatly helps with rear-sag and may negate the need for air bags. If you didn't want to use air bags then weight the trunk equal to what you calculate your tongue weight will be (10% rule). Measure the stock spring sag and take that dimension to a spring manufacture. They will be able to calculate the correct spring-rate and spring to be installed. The trouble is, after the load is removed the car will arch up in back. With air bags you can air-down easily for a stock height. From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Tue Jun 2 06:23:03 2009 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 08:23:03 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine In-Reply-To: <000801c9e31d$a890fa00$6501a8c0@S> References: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org> <000801c9e31d$a890fa00$6501a8c0@S> Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Ed Weldon wrote: Jon -- THIS IS A PERPETUAL MOTION SCAM!! Don't get suckered in. BTW, thanks for your comments. Just now read them. Im in full agreement. Ed Weldon No, no -- I'm certainly not thinking of helping these folks -- I just thought it might pep up the land-speed list a bit. And wow, it sure did. Thanks for your attention. To reclaim any sense that you might think I'd lost -- the last time I was suckered into something like this -- was when J. D. Tone told me that porta-potty duty was a "sweet" job. Little did I know. . . Jon Wennerberg Tall guy with moustache and a pair of 2 Club hats From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Tue Jun 2 07:00:15 2009 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:00:15 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine In-Reply-To: References: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org><000801c9e31d$a890fa00$6501a8c0@S> Message-ID: Sheeeeeeeeooot. I heard Slim was trading porta-potty futures for battery recharge rights. Perhaps Slim should consider using "by-product" to grow corn to make ethanol to power the Flame (eatin' place on the salt) which, in turn, would make more by-product to grow corn to make more ethanol to power the Flame . . . . . . . I've got a speech about the power plant at Page supplying power to the electric steam shovel and train to dig up coal so the train can carry it from Black Mesa to Page to make power to run the electric shovel to dig coal to carry on the electric train over to Page to make power to . . . . .but don't get me started. There should be some similar speech about GM, but I'm not that smart. Peace, love and traction! -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jon Wennerberg Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 6:23 AM To: Ed Weldon Cc: Land speed list Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Ed Weldon wrote: Jon -- THIS IS A PERPETUAL MOTION SCAM!! Don't get suckered in. BTW, thanks for your comments. Just now read them. Im in full agreement. Ed Weldon No, no -- I'm certainly not thinking of helping these folks -- I just thought it might pep up the land-speed list a bit. And wow, it sure did. Thanks for your attention. To reclaim any sense that you might think I'd lost -- the last time I was suckered into something like this -- was when J. D. Tone told me that porta-potty duty was a "sweet" job. Little did I know. . . Jon Wennerberg Tall guy with moustache and a pair of 2 Club hats Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From advo at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 06:56:00 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 07:56:00 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: <001401c9e33a$f047dea0$d0d79be0$@net> Message-ID: Studying octane/advance/detonation: Now I need to figure out where the quietest place on a Ford flathead would be to place a knock sensor. Where is knock likely to be heard first? These can be fooled by solid lifter noise. I want it to sample both sides. Are intake valves quieter than exhaust valves? I'm thinking that maybe that if I make a steel strap that straddles between one stud on each head, I would be sampling both sides. The studs would be into the head only, near the back of the motor, squarely between the two back cylinders in each bank, just towards the cylinder from the transition point between squish and valve lands (intakes). Any thoughts? From advo at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 08:28:34 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:28:34 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I wonder if central placement might be a concern? The more mechanical mayhem, the easier it is to confuse a microphone..... Can I find a quiet place in the rear of the block where detonation in the front can still be heard..... Solid lifters may > have enough background noise to cause a concern Yes, they do, and at the same relative frequency as detonation. I have tried in the past to keep the sensor away from the "lifter chest", across the head gasket from them. - wonder if those > sensors can be adjusted for sensitivity???? Anything has its optimal resonant frequency at which it would be more Likely to react, but the sensors themselves aren't usually modified for that. The device which is connected to them, however, may have filters which are tunable (like on your high end stereos) to send thru some frequencies and stifle others. The analogy of the volume control on your stereo brings up the signal which has passed thru the filters. When the frequency is the same, the shape of the wave, phase shift and harmonics may need to be analyzed to characterize what made two different sounds at the same frequency. 60 cycle hum from your fluorescent lamp sounds different than 60 cycles from a string bass. > > Just some random thoughts . . . . I may need to just screw the thing down in various places and look at the frequency analysis with a free-ware program on my laptop..... Thanks! Greg From 23.weldon at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 08:36:50 2009 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:36:50 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car References: <001401c9e33a$f047dea0$d0d79be0$@net> Message-ID: <000601c9e38f$9374bea0$6501a8c0@S> Take off the deck lid and mount a 5th wheel high in the trunk space. You'll need a gooseneck trailer, though. Don't forget to drill a couple of rain drains (don't hit the gas tank). Yeah, the idea of a gas tank under all that weight somehow bothers me too. (Creativity has it's crazy side) (My aunt the school teacher used to be fond of saying that it's a short distance between genius and insanity) Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirkwood" To: "land-speed" Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:31 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > ........ The problem with the Lincoln is the long "overhang" distance from the rear axle. .......... From gmc6power at earthlink.net Tue Jun 2 08:47:31 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! Message-ID: <31537468.1243954051315.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I realize you are "studying" anti knock but with that said if this is not on a non-vintage vehicle questions will come up concerning what if anything you are doing with the info whill the vehicle is underway. Too much, or any to me, electronics in a vintage car with a vintage engine raises questions to a knowlegeable inspector or impounds official. Anti-knock is normally a function of computer control as we all know in our modern vehicles and because of it we get the best the engine in our vehcle can give in performance and milage. Good Luck >Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! > >Studying octane/advance/detonation: >Now I need to figure out where the quietest place on a Ford flathead would >be to place a knock sensor. Where is knock likely to be heard first? These >can be fooled by solid lifter noise. I want it to sample both sides. Are >intake valves quieter than exhaust valves? I'm thinking that maybe that if >I make a steel strap that straddles between one stud on each head, I would >be sampling both sides. The studs >would be into the head only, near the back of the motor, squarely between >the two back cylinders in each bank, just towards the cylinder from the >transition point between squish and valve lands (intakes). >Any thoughts? From advo at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 08:55:10 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:55:10 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car In-Reply-To: <000601c9e38f$9374bea0$6501a8c0@S> Message-ID: If I had the time, I think I could come up with a pretty good, high mpg, low cost, aerodynamic car hauler after all these great ideas! Greg On 6/2/09 9:36 AM, "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> wrote: > Take off the deck lid and mount a 5th wheel high in the trunk space. You'll > need a gooseneck trailer, though. > Don't forget to drill a couple of rain drains (don't hit the gas tank). > Yeah, the idea of a gas tank under all that weight somehow bothers me too. > (Creativity has it's crazy side) (My aunt the school teacher used to be > fond of saying that it's a short distance between genius and insanity) > Ed Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirkwood" > To: "land-speed" > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > > >> ........ The problem with the Lincoln is the long "overhang" distance from > the rear axle. .......... > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as advo at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 09:15:12 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:15:12 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine In-Reply-To: References: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org><000801c9e31d$a890fa00$6501a8c0@S> Message-ID: <3CC87C71-CAE2-4FA0-A4AC-46DE0E114413@comcast.net> The Red Flame has been supplying it's own brand of gaseous by product for years. It's just that in the wide open spaces of the salt that the collection system is not able to function properly. When they had a brick and mortar restaurant it was much easier to accumulate. The prime rib wasn't bad and overall the food was acceptable. We had some USFRA awards dinners there. There are people in Bountiful, UT who still fret about it's demise. Wes On Jun 2, 2009, at 7:00 AM, Adin, David wrote: > Sheeeeeeeeooot. I heard Slim was trading porta-potty futures for > battery recharge rights. > > Perhaps Slim should consider using "by-product" to grow corn to make > ethanol to power the Flame (eatin' place on the salt) which, in turn, > would make more by-product to grow corn to make more ethanol to power > the Flame . . . . . . . > > I've got a speech about the power plant at Page supplying power to the > electric steam shovel and train to dig up coal so the train can > carry it > from Black Mesa to Page to make power to run the electric shovel to > dig > coal to carry on the electric train over to Page to make power > to . . . > . .but don't get me started. > > There should be some similar speech about GM, but I'm not that smart. > > Peace, love and traction! From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Tue Jun 2 09:18:51 2009 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:18:51 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine In-Reply-To: <3CC87C71-CAE2-4FA0-A4AC-46DE0E114413@comcast.net> References: <113B3922-886F-4066-A043-CED85B3FAB34@nancyandjon.org><000801c9e31d$a890fa00$6501a8c0@S> <3CC87C71-CAE2-4FA0-A4AC-46DE0E114413@comcast.net> Message-ID: No offense intended nor implied. -----Original Message----- From: Wester Potter [mailto:wester6935 at comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:15 AM To: Adin, David Cc: Jon Wennerberg; Ed Weldon; Land speed list Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Perpetual motion machine The Red Flame has been supplying it's own brand of gaseous by product for years. It's just that in the wide open spaces of the salt that the collection system is not able to function properly. When they had a brick and mortar restaurant it was much easier to accumulate. The prime rib wasn't bad and overall the food was acceptable. We had some USFRA awards dinners there. There are people in Bountiful, UT who still fret about it's demise. Wes On Jun 2, 2009, at 7:00 AM, Adin, David wrote: > Sheeeeeeeeooot. I heard Slim was trading porta-potty futures for > battery recharge rights. > > Perhaps Slim should consider using "by-product" to grow corn to make > ethanol to power the Flame (eatin' place on the salt) which, in turn, > would make more by-product to grow corn to make more ethanol to power > the Flame . . . . . . . > > I've got a speech about the power plant at Page supplying power to the > electric steam shovel and train to dig up coal so the train can carry > it from Black Mesa to Page to make power to run the electric shovel to > dig coal to carry on the electric train over to Page to make power to > . . . > . .but don't get me started. > > There should be some similar speech about GM, but I'm not that smart. > > Peace, love and traction! From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Jun 2 09:56:03 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:56:03 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: <31537468.1243954051315.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31537468.1243954051315.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A254B93.7020501@mayfco.com> James, an interesting set of comments. Especially the last sentence. Paragraph 2R of the 2009 rule book says data logging may be used in any class. Are you implying that use of that data log to tune away detonation in a vintage car should not be allowed? If so, why? I understand that active detonation control via some sort of in car emgine management systen is a no-no, but data logging and then tuning to eliminate that are fair game. True? Not true? mayf James Tone wrote: >I realize you are "studying" anti knock but with that said if this is not on a non-vintage vehicle questions will come up concerning what if anything you are doing with the info whill the vehicle is underway. Too much, or any to me, electronics in a vintage car with a vintage engine raises questions to a knowlegeable inspector or impounds official. Anti-knock is normally a function of computer control as we all know in our modern vehicles and because of it we get the best the engine in our vehcle can give in performance and milage. Good Luck > > > >>Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! >> >>Studying octane/advance/detonation: >>Now I need to figure out where the quietest place on a Ford flathead would >>be to place a knock sensor. Where is knock likely to be heard first? These >>can be fooled by solid lifter noise. I want it to sample both sides. Are >>intake valves quieter than exhaust valves? I'm thinking that maybe that if >>I make a steel strap that straddles between one stud on each head, I would >>be sampling both sides. The studs >>would be into the head only, near the back of the motor, squarely between >>the two back cylinders in each bank, just towards the cylinder from the >>transition point between squish and valve lands (intakes). >>Any thoughts? From advo at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 10:31:12 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:31:12 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/2/09 8:55 AM, "Dave Dahlgren" wrote: > How do you plan on testing it? Actually, a knock sensor is really just a microphone, and can be hooked up to any laptop. There are multiple free-ware programs which can analyze wave-forms. This gives me an analog to digitalized representation sort of like a sample and hold oscilloscope. Moving the sensor around the idling engine until I see the quietest signal is first. Then I advance the timing until something new appears on the screen. That wave form will be what I want to keep from seeing as I play with other variables. Thanks Greg From advo at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 10:38:52 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:38:52 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] FW: Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message From: Greg Meyers Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:06:01 -0500 To: James Tone Conversation: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! You are absolutely right. I can, however, play with octane, CR, h2o/methanol injection and timing before I head to the salt and get an idea what I would be able to do safely when out there. I could even do a shakedown with computer control early in the week to gain data at elevation before attempting to qualify without the computer on board. Knock sensing and A/F monitoring under load will help me get it right before leaving Minnesota! Thanks Greg On 6/2/09 9:47 AM, "James Tone" wrote: > I realize you are "studying" anti knock but with that said if this is not on a > non-vintage vehicle questions will come up concerning what if anything you are > doing with the info whill the vehicle is underway. Too much, or any to me, > electronics in a vintage car with a vintage engine raises questions to a > knowlegeable inspector or impounds official. Anti-knock is normally a function > of computer control as we all know in our modern vehicles and because of it we > get the best the engine in our vehcle can give in performance and milage. Good > Luck > >> Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! >> >> Studying octane/advance/detonation: >> Now I need to figure out where the quietest place on a Ford flathead would >> be to place a knock sensor. Where is knock likely to be heard first? These >> can be fooled by solid lifter noise. I want it to sample both sides. Are >> intake valves quieter than exhaust valves? I'm thinking that maybe that if >> I make a steel strap that straddles between one stud on each head, I would >> be sampling both sides. The studs >> would be into the head only, near the back of the motor, squarely between >> the two back cylinders in each bank, just towards the cylinder from the >> transition point between squish and valve lands (intakes). >> Any thoughts? > ------ End of Forwarded Message From gmc6power at earthlink.net Tue Jun 2 10:47:50 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! Message-ID: <10234765.1243961270866.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> If so, why? I >understand that active detonation control via some sort of in car emgine >management systen is a no-no, but data logging and then tuning to >eliminate that are fair game. True? Not true? You answered yourself. Temptation and connected wires. Greg answered what he was going to do. I am just making sure he knew. I know someday, it already may have happened, competitors will have these devices attached and working to control their vintage engines and won't be caught. Like Danica Patrick just said about drug testing, "If I'm not caught it must be OK". Some folks don't have a conscience if they get what they want by circumventing the rules and are not caught they a happy. They even snicker at the person trying to do it legally. I feel sorry for them and they will answer to a higher "official" someday. LSR competitveness is advancing everyday. I do not have the ability to keep up electronically or otherwise. I know how to add HP and less resistance to my drive train, but will I do it as others are doing now, probably not. I pride myself on the simplicity of the accomplishments our family has done with what we had. I look what is being spent to achieve many of the records today and think I haven't spent that in my 35 years and 2 race cars. Do I begruge them? absolutly not, They are now doing the dream they had when they were young and chose not to do. I found a way to "fit it in" with out breaking my bank account or spending my retirement. I have had the good luck to be competitive for a very long time but as those who were in the same position in the 50's, 60's 70's, 80's time moves on and the records they "rented" are broken by others with the newer advancements. One can sit back and "bitch" that the rules aren't the same or congratulate those who have done better. I choose the latter. One of my happiest moments was giving Bill Goldman his "Red Hat" for breaking a record I had for a couple of years. The best thing in LSR is the friends I have made the lasting relations with those friends. I will never spend the time I once spent in LSR but will run when I can. I will always treasure these frendships along with the "Red Hat" earned by first my son and then luckily by me. Sorry for the rant...................JD From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Tue Jun 2 12:01:07 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:01:07 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: <10234765.1243961270866.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10234765.1243961270866.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <55221D5732B5493D8826E2A95ACB1017@GlenPC> JD Great words from the heart. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Tone" To: Cc: "'land Speed List'" Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! > If so, why? I >>understand that active detonation control via some sort of in car emgine >>management systen is a no-no, but data logging and then tuning to >>eliminate that are fair game. True? Not true? > > > > You answered yourself. Temptation and connected wires. Greg answered what > he was going to do. I am just making sure he knew. > > I know someday, it already may have happened, competitors will have these > devices attached and working to control their vintage engines and won't be > caught. Like Danica Patrick just said about drug testing, "If I'm not > caught it must be OK". Some folks don't have a conscience if they get what > they want by circumventing the rules and are not caught they a happy. They > even snicker at the person trying to do it legally. I feel sorry for them > and they will answer to a higher "official" someday. > > LSR competitveness is advancing everyday. I do not have the ability to > keep up electronically or otherwise. I know how to add HP and less > resistance to my drive train, but will I do it as others are doing now, > probably not. I pride myself on the simplicity of the accomplishments our > family has done with what we had. I look what is being spent to achieve > many of the records today and think I haven't spent that in my 35 years > and 2 race cars. Do I begruge them? absolutly not, They are now doing the > dream they had when they were young and chose not to do. I found a way to > "fit it in" with out breaking my bank account or spending my retirement. > > I have had the good luck to be competitive for a very long time but as > those who were in the same position in the 50's, 60's 70's, 80's time > moves on and the records they "rented" are broken by others with the newer > advancements. One can sit back and "bitch" that the rules aren't the same > or congratulate those who have done better. I choose the latter. One of my > happiest moments was giving Bill Goldman his "Red Hat" for breaking a > record I had for a couple of years. > > The best thing in LSR is the friends I have made the lasting relations > with those friends. I will never spend the time I once spent in LSR but > will run when I can. I will always treasure these frendships along with > the "Red Hat" earned by first my son and then luckily by me. > > Sorry for the rant...................JD > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Jun 2 11:07:13 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:07:13 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: <10234765.1243961270866.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10234765.1243961270866.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A255C41.4040600@mayfco.com> JD, I do my level best to comply with each and every rule. I do not like cheats and wont have much to do with them. But reading the rule book is key. If it is allowed or not specifically prohibited then as far as I know it's legal (in general terms) until told otherwise. As to your rant? heck that just sounded like reminiscing and that for sure is ok buy any standards. I wish you folk who have been around for a long time could prepare some of your history for us newer (yet older) guys to share. I do appreciate what you and others like you have done for the sport and activity. mayf James Tone wrote: >If so, why? I > > >>understand that active detonation control via some sort of in car emgine >>management systen is a no-no, but data logging and then tuning to >>eliminate that are fair game. True? Not true? >> >> > > > >You answered yourself. Temptation and connected wires. Greg answered what he was going to do. I am just making sure he knew. > >I know someday, it already may have happened, competitors will have these devices attached and working to control their vintage engines and won't be caught. Like Danica Patrick just said about drug testing, "If I'm not caught it must be OK". Some folks don't have a conscience if they get what they want by circumventing the rules and are not caught they a happy. They even snicker at the person trying to do it legally. I feel sorry for them and they will answer to a higher "official" someday. > >LSR competitveness is advancing everyday. I do not have the ability to keep up electronically or otherwise. I know how to add HP and less resistance to my drive train, but will I do it as others are doing now, probably not. I pride myself on the simplicity of the accomplishments our family has done with what we had. I look what is being spent to achieve many of the records today and think I haven't spent that in my 35 years and 2 race cars. Do I begruge them? absolutly not, They are now doing the dream they had when they were young and chose not to do. I found a way to "fit it in" with out breaking my bank account or spending my retirement. > >I have had the good luck to be competitive for a very long time but as those who were in the same position in the 50's, 60's 70's, 80's time moves on and the records they "rented" are broken by others with the newer advancements. One can sit back and "bitch" that the rules aren't the same or congratulate those who have done better. I choose the latter. One of my happiest moments was giving Bill Goldman his "Red Hat" for breaking a record I had for a couple of years. > >The best thing in LSR is the friends I have made the lasting relations with those friends. I will never spend the time I once spent in LSR but will run when I can. I will always treasure these frendships along with the "Red Hat" earned by first my son and then luckily by me. > >Sorry for the rant...................JD From joyseydevil at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 12:33:05 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:33:05 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car Message-ID: 5th wheel trailers work fine with zero tongue weight . > Take off the deck lid and mount a 5th wheel high in the trunk space. > You'll > need a gooseneck trailer, though. > Don't forget to drill a couple of rain drains (don't hit the gas tank). > Yeah, the idea of a gas tank under all that weight somehow bothers me too. > (Creativity has it's crazy side) (My aunt the school teacher used to be > fond of saying that it's a short distance between genius and insanity) > Ed Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirkwood" > To: "land-speed" > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > > >> ........ The problem with the Lincoln is the long "overhang" distance >> from > the rear axle. .......... > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as joyseydevil at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From lsrvette at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 13:01:29 2009 From: lsrvette at yahoo.com (John Staiger) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car Message-ID: <48349.98547.qm@web54305.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ...or you could try a pullrite hitch. It is essentially an upside-down 5th wheel hitch that puts the pivot point under the gas tank at the rear axle... but then you don't get to do all that custom trunk work... JLS --- On Tue, 6/2/09, John Burk wrote: From: John Burk Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car To: "LandSpeed List" Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 2:33 PM 5th wheel trailers work fine with zero tongue weight . > Take off the deck lid and mount a 5th wheel high in the trunk space. You'll > need a gooseneck trailer, though. > Don't forget to drill a couple of rain drains (don't hit the gas tank). > Yeah, the idea of a gas tank under all that weight somehow bothers me too. > (Creativity has it's crazy side) (My aunt the school teacher used to be > fond of saying that it's a short distance between genius and insanity) > Ed Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirkwood" > To: "land-speed" > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > > >> ........ The problem with the Lincoln is the long "overhang" distance from > the rear axle. .......... > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as joyseydevil at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as lsrvette at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 13:54:33 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:54:33 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Vintage racing tees Message-ID: <5914A5FE-5E1F-4AE0-A011-432D22C9B4BB@comcast.net> http://ave-b.com/?gclid=CKCimriu7JoCFQkzawodtXFVBA From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 13:57:30 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:57:30 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." References: Message-ID: <4BC07B92-3116-441B-A85B-AD72F3400129@comcast.net> Don't try this at home!!! Wes Begin forwarded message: > From: TwoDocBob at aol.com > Date: June 2, 2009 12:10:24 PM MDT > To: TwoDocBob at aol.com > Subject: Fwd: "You're grounded!.." > > > > From: lbyc86 at verizon.net > To: lbyc86 at verizon.net > Sent: 6/1/2009 4:57:28 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time > Subj: "You're grounded!.." > > > > > > > We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What > will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Jun 2 17:42:56 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:42:56 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090602234251.16E4818872F@autox.team.net> UhhHUH, really?.................. Skip At 11:33 AM 6/2/2009, John Burk wrote: >5th wheel trailers work fine with zero tongue weight . > > > >>Take off the deck lid and mount a 5th wheel high in the trunk space. You'll >>need a gooseneck trailer, though. >>Don't forget to drill a couple of rain drains (don't hit the gas tank). >>Yeah, the idea of a gas tank under all that weight somehow bothers me too. >>(Creativity has it's crazy side) (My aunt the school teacher used to be >>fond of saying that it's a short distance between genius and insanity) >>Ed Weldon From saltfever at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 18:42:04 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:42:04 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! Message-ID: <001a01c9e3e4$253ad0f0$6fb072d0$@net> Greg: Interesting idea and thanks for the posting. You have correctly identified the real issue and you have a much better grasp on this than I do. My $00.02 is only the logic of your effort. Knock sensors are seriously problematic in that they report all ''noise''. Noise being defined as ANY signal other than the PRECISE SIGNATURE you are looking for. Because of this you will spend copious amounts of time trying different locations or positions, and hair-pulling sessions trying mechanical isolation or dampening of extraneous signals. Why bother? I would just assume there is noise in the system and go into partnership with a PhD who understands Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) signal processing. Seriously, a smart software packages (as you mentioned) that is industrial strength with robust signal processing is more practical. You can chase mechanical issues forever. Just accept them and filter them out. Put a copper strap longitudinally along each head and use two sensors (one on each side of the engine). Filter the noisy data, looking for the exact signature. There is a wealth of information on detonation signatures, one being Heywood pages 450-465. The problem with OEM sensors is that they don't have the computing horsepower to be extremely sophisticated. With your experiment it takes little effort or cost to improve on the OEM stuff by orders of magnitude. http://www.dspguide.com/ch12.htm Mayf: Thanks for the rule book point-out that brought a subsequent clarification. From 23.weldon at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 20:26:12 2009 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:26:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car References: <20090602234251.16E4818872F@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <005e01c9e3f2$ac31deb0$6501a8c0@S> John/Skip -- I think I share Skip's skepticism. The physics of the situation suggests to me that the weight on the 5th wheel should be a significant amount to give the rear wheels of the tow vehicle extra sidewise traction to resist the sideways component of trailer deceleration forces whenever slowing down. With no 5th wheel experience I personally have no good idea of how much down force at the 5th wheel is enough. But it strikes me that in the case of an 18 wheeler truck that 5th wheel down force could be close to half the weight of the trailer. And still the truckers have jackknife accidents. So it seems that the loading of a 5th wheel trailer ought to be as much as the tow vehicle can safely handle considering all aspects of the tow vehicle's operational characteristics. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "John Burk" ; "LandSpeed List" Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > UhhHUH, really?.................. > > Skip > At 11:33 AM 6/2/2009, John Burk wrote: > >5th wheel trailers work fine with zero tongue weight . From advo at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 20:42:32 2009 From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:42:32 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Knock sensor placement on flathead! In-Reply-To: <001a01c9e3e4$253ad0f0$6fb072d0$@net> Message-ID: A close friend IS a PhD physicist, and will be helping me! Thanks for the URL ! Greg On 6/2/09 7:42 PM, "Kirkwood" wrote: > Greg: Interesting idea and thanks for the posting. > > You have correctly identified the real issue and you have a much better > grasp on this than I do. My $00.02 is only the logic of your effort. Knock > sensors are seriously problematic in that they report all ''noise''. Noise > being defined as ANY signal other than the PRECISE SIGNATURE you are looking > for. Because of this you will spend copious amounts of time trying different > locations or positions, and hair-pulling sessions trying mechanical > isolation or dampening of extraneous signals. Why bother? I would just > assume there is noise in the system and go into partnership with a PhD who > understands Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) signal processing. Seriously, a > smart software packages (as you mentioned) that is industrial strength with > robust signal processing is more practical. You can chase mechanical issues > forever. Just accept them and filter them out. Put a copper strap > longitudinally along each head and use two sensors (one on each side of the > engine). Filter the noisy data, looking for the exact signature. There is a > wealth of information on detonation signatures, one being Heywood pages > 450-465. The problem with OEM sensors is that they don't have the computing > horsepower to be extremely sophisticated. With your experiment it takes > little effort or cost to improve on the OEM stuff by orders of magnitude. > > http://www.dspguide.com/ch12.htm > > > > Mayf: Thanks for the rule book point-out that brought a subsequent > clarification. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as advo at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 21:43:33 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." Message-ID: <174059.27619.qm@web52509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ? --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Wester Potter wrote: From: Wester Potter Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." To: "LAND SPEED LIST" Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 12:57 PM Don't try this at home!!! Wes Begin forwarded message: > From: TwoDocBob at aol.com > Date: June 2, 2009 12:10:24 PM MDT > To: TwoDocBob at aol.com > Subject: Fwd: "You're grounded!.." > > > > From: lbyc86 at verizon.net > To: lbyc86 at verizon.net > Sent: 6/1/2009 4:57:28 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time > Subj: "You're grounded!.." > > > > > > > We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What > will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Jun 2 22:42:36 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:42:36 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car In-Reply-To: <005e01c9e3f2$ac31deb0$6501a8c0@S> References: <20090602234251.16E4818872F@autox.team.net> <005e01c9e3f2$ac31deb0$6501a8c0@S> Message-ID: <20090603044230.1658218892D@autox.team.net> Ed, Our 5th wheel has roughly 1600 lbs on the pin.....enough to keep the back tires on the road....and it pulls beautifully. Total wight is about 11K. Race car trailer (Goose neck) has about 2000 on the pin and 15K total. Skip At 07:26 PM 6/2/2009, Ed Weldon wrote: >John/Skip -- I think I share Skip's skepticism. The physics of the >situation suggests to me that the weight on the 5th wheel should be a >significant amount to give the rear wheels of the tow vehicle extra sidewise >traction to resist the sideways component of trailer deceleration forces >whenever slowing down. With no 5th wheel experience I personally have no >good idea of how much down force at the 5th wheel is enough. But it strikes >me that in the case of an 18 wheeler truck that 5th wheel down force could >be close to half the weight of the trailer. And still the truckers have >jackknife accidents. So it seems that the loading of a 5th wheel trailer >ought to be as much as the tow vehicle can safely handle considering all >aspects of the tow vehicle's operational characteristics. >Ed Weldon > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "John Burk" ; "LandSpeed List" > >Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 4:42 PM >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > > > > UhhHUH, really?.................. From gary_ellen at msn.com Tue Jun 2 23:12:13 2009 From: gary_ellen at msn.com (Ellen Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:12:13 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trailer towing 101 and a neat tool to buy. http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm Gary W To tow it correctly, the towing parts WILL be the most expensive things! Thanks All! From joyseydevil at comcast.net Wed Jun 3 00:26:15 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:26:15 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car Message-ID: <7A91E84C4BFC41B8A1D4E21B536B87E4@john> Ed and Skip , high tongue wt with a 5th wheel hitch is redundant . Tongue wt. isolates sway forces to trailer tires and 5th wheels keeps sway from affecting the steering . But then some people like belt and suspenders . Rear axle weight and sway are separate issues . > John/Skip -- I think I share Skip's skepticism. The physics of the > situation suggests to me that the weight on the 5th wheel should be a > significant amount to give the rear wheels of the tow vehicle extra > sidewise > traction to resist the sideways component of trailer deceleration forces > whenever slowing down. With no 5th wheel experience I personally have no > good idea of how much down force at the 5th wheel is enough. But it > strikes > me that in the case of an 18 wheeler truck that 5th wheel down force could > be close to half the weight of the trailer. And still the truckers have > jackknife accidents. So it seems that the loading of a 5th wheel trailer > ought to be as much as the tow vehicle can safely handle considering all > aspects of the tow vehicle's operational characteristics. > Ed Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Skip Higginbotham" > To: "John Burk" ; "LandSpeed List" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > > >> UhhHUH, really?.................. >> >> Skip >> At 11:33 AM 6/2/2009, John Burk wrote: >> >5th wheel trailers work fine with zero tongue weight . From kturk at adelphia.net Wed Jun 3 03:43:50 2009 From: kturk at adelphia.net (Keith Turk) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 04:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." References: <174059.27619.qm@web52509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C12EA517A5E4272B8E2BA0871197FE6@keithhrijwmm4p> ahhh yeah... what was that.... a drive by joke? Man I've been busy... spinning my wheels... but busy all the same...what's everyone else up to??? K From dlodom at charter.net Wed Jun 3 08:26:10 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:26:10 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." References: <174059.27619.qm@web52509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c101c9e457$3e280e70$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> OK Dan, Fess UP. Did you try this at home? Doug from big ditch > > > Don't try this at home!!! > > Wes From saltrat at pahrump.com Wed Jun 3 09:05:03 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:05:03 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car In-Reply-To: <7A91E84C4BFC41B8A1D4E21B536B87E4@john> References: <7A91E84C4BFC41B8A1D4E21B536B87E4@john> Message-ID: <20090603150457.53B14188A45@autox.team.net> I agree John, I think it's the location of the pivot point that makes all the difference. The distance from the pivot point to the rear axle and location relative to the rear axle centerline (fore or aft) is also key to reducing sway and the type of sway. Pass a truck with a 5th wheel and you get sway and steering effects.....just different from a tag trailer if the pivot point is located forward of the CL. One of the things that has always interested me is that tag trailers seem to tend to sway more when going downhill. Why is that? Weight shift or deceleration? Ed seems to think deceleration......."sideways component". Skip At 11:26 PM 6/2/2009, John Burk wrote: >Ed and Skip , high tongue wt with a 5th wheel hitch is redundant . >Tongue wt. isolates sway forces to trailer tires and 5th wheels >keeps sway from affecting the steering . But then some people like >belt and suspenders . Rear axle weight and sway are separate issues . > > > >>John/Skip -- I think I share Skip's skepticism. The physics of the >>situation suggests to me that the weight on the 5th wheel should be a >>significant amount to give the rear wheels of the tow vehicle extra >>sidewise >>traction to resist the sideways component of trailer deceleration forces >>whenever slowing down. With no 5th wheel experience I personally have no >>good idea of how much down force at the 5th wheel is enough. But it >>strikes >>me that in the case of an 18 wheeler truck that 5th wheel down force could >>be close to half the weight of the trailer. And still the truckers have >>jackknife accidents. So it seems that the loading of a 5th wheel trailer >>ought to be as much as the tow vehicle can safely handle considering all >>aspects of the tow vehicle's operational characteristics. >>Ed Weldon >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >>To: "John Burk" ; "LandSpeed List" >> >>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 4:42 PM >>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car From jdos at dunkerton.net Wed Jun 3 09:08:45 2009 From: jdos at dunkerton.net (Jim) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:08:45 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car In-Reply-To: <005e01c9e3f2$ac31deb0$6501a8c0@S> References: <20090602234251.16E4818872F@autox.team.net> <005e01c9e3f2$ac31deb0$6501a8c0@S> Message-ID: <8EFAED6341EE4D7F85BC3842E804CB68@LENOVOE0170204> Guys, I hope you don't mind me joining the conversation this late. We used to own a 10T 5th whl gooseneck back in the 80's. Pulled it with a very heavy duty 3/4t chev pu. The gooseneck ball was about 12-18 " forward of the rear axle. By doing this the weight of the trailer load was spread on the entire frame of the truck, the turn radius was improved, rear end sway was eliminated but too little tongue weight and probably more little things I don't remember now. The extreme loading of the bumper hitch by a normal trailer, even using 'load' bars to help transfer the hitch load , is most of the time not a real good thing. But too little weight and you get trailer sway and dangerous travel, too much and you may stress the limits of safe hitches, balls, couplers, etc. You lose bed space in the truck, shortbox pu's don't' do well because the hitch is too close to the cab. Have seen a short box extended cab that was repaired twice from turning too short and having the gooseneck kiss the cab. But the lost bed space can be made up by using the space on the gooseneck for storage . Even semi drivers with a long cargo trailer, move their loads to the front half when the trailer gets empty. I wouldn't do some kind of redneck 5th conversion to pull with a car, but for a pu, it's the ultimate. Plus, most of your friends can't ask to borrow the trailer :) Which can be a good thing. Sorry if I butted in. Jim -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Ed Weldon Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:26 PM To: John Burk; LandSpeed List; Skip Higginbotham Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car John/Skip -- I think I share Skip's skepticism. The physics of the situation suggests to me that the weight on the 5th wheel should be a significant amount to give the rear wheels of the tow vehicle extra sidewise traction to resist the sideways component of trailer deceleration forces whenever slowing down. With no 5th wheel experience I personally have no good idea of how much down force at the 5th wheel is enough. But it strikes me that in the case of an 18 wheeler truck that 5th wheel down force could be close to half the weight of the trailer. And still the truckers have jackknife accidents. So it seems that the loading of a 5th wheel trailer ought to be as much as the tow vehicle can safely handle considering all aspects of the tow vehicle's operational characteristics. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "John Burk" ; "LandSpeed List" Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Towing a Race car > UhhHUH, really?.................. > > Skip > At 11:33 AM 6/2/2009, John Burk wrote: > >5th wheel trailers work fine with zero tongue weight . Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as jdos at dunkerton.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Wed Jun 3 09:13:40 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Towing a race car In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090603151335.403E2188A61@autox.team.net> Gary, I had trouble with the link.....is it something I said???? Skip At 10:12 PM 6/2/2009, Ellen Wilkinson wrote: > Trailer towing 101 and a neat tool to buy. >http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm > > Gary W From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Wed Jun 3 11:10:02 2009 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:10:02 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] more miracles Message-ID: Not to be outdone by any tall kids from "way up north" . . . ( I NEED a lesson on how to "blueprint" my junk ford to get mpgx4 and powerx10 (to go 200mph) - I could be available most anytime.) WAUSEON - The man who drove his 20-year-old Mustang from Napoleon, Ohio, to Las Vegas and back last year on 39 gallons of fuel will open his first manufacturing facility Monday to allow others to get 110 miles per gallon. Doug Pelmear, owner of Horse Power Sales.net Inc. and Hp2G LLC, will hold an open house Monday morning in the idle 100,000-square-foot factory he has leased in Wauseon to begin manufacturing his revolutionary engine. The factory, on the Fulton Industries Inc. campus in Wauseon, will be tooled to initially turn out 20 of Mr. Pelmear's custom engines per day with one shift of 25 workers. A Decatur, Ind., specialty car company, Revenge Designs Inc., has contracted with Mr. Pelmear to purchase 2,000 engines for use in a new vehicle it plans to unveil at the end of this year at the Los Angeles International Auto Show. The vehicle is to be called the Revenge Verde Super Car, which will use Mr. Pelmear's 400-horsepower engine and its 500 foot-pounds of torque to travel up to 200 mph and get 110 mpg - though admittedly not at the same time. "The engine is going to be a really great partnership with the car," explained Emily Levault, a spokesman for Revenge Design. "The idea behind this was to give people what they want while putting people back in their jobs." Ms. Levault said the Verde will be introduced as both a left and right-hand drive, so that it can be marketed around the world. She said details of its pricing have not been released. Mr. Pelmear has said that he employs more precise tolerances and manufacturing techniques to decrease heat and energy loss and increase the efficiency of the internal combustion engine. He said he has more than quadrupled the industry average engine efficiency of about 8 percent. Mr. Pelmear's company employs eight people, and he said he'll "take resumes" on Monday, but won't accept applications, for what would be his first shift of production workers. Depending on how the plant start-up goes, Mr. Pelmear said, "we'll probably add another 25 over the next three months after that." Mr. Pelmear did not say what workers will be paid. editorial comment? Bwahahahahahahahaha From dlodom at charter.net Wed Jun 3 11:28:06 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:28:06 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] non-LSR wanted dodge rear fenders Message-ID: <011c01c9e470$a8487240$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Non-LSR My dad needs a pair of 1990 Dodge one ton dully rear fenders. He is in Oregon, I'm in Calif. but we both go to Bonneville. Thanks Doug from big ditch From gmc6power at earthlink.net Wed Jun 3 14:11:15 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Land-speed] more miracles Message-ID: <24580096.1244059876199.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Does it use a Fish Carburator? more miracles 110 miles per gallon. From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 14:15:58 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." Message-ID: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I didn't see attachment or link, that's why I responded with ? If it has something to do with grounding and teenagers I am ready to give it a try. DW --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Doug Odom wrote: From: Doug Odom Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." To: "dan warner" , "LAND SPEED LIST" , "Wester Potter" Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 7:26 AM OK Dan, Fess UP. Did you try this at home? Doug from big ditch > > > Don't try this at home!!! > > Wes From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Wed Jun 3 14:15:58 2009 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:15:58 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] more miracles In-Reply-To: <24580096.1244059876199.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24580096.1244059876199.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hahahaha - I'm just the messenger. The SBF with that deep OD fifth gear will easily get 25 mpg - somehow I can't figure how to make the jump to 110mpg. A fish carb you say? How about a bridge? -----Original Message----- From: James Tone [mailto:gmc6power at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:11 PM To: Adin, David; Land speed list Subject: Re: [Land-speed] more miracles Does it use a Fish Carburator? more miracles 110 miles per gallon. From gmc6power at earthlink.net Wed Jun 3 16:02:30 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Message-ID: <31322955.1244066550349.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> makes 2 of us DW > >I didn't see attachment or link, that's why I responded with ? > >If it has something to do with grounding and teenagers I am ready to give it a >try. > >DW From dlodom at charter.net Wed Jun 3 16:14:56 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:14:56 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] (no subject) References: <31322955.1244066550349.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <016e01c9e498$ba915b60$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> I think Wes is just messin with you two. Doug Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: > makes 2 of us DW > > >> >>I didn't see attachment or link, that's why I responded with ? >> >>If it has something to do with grounding and teenagers I am ready to give >>it a >>try. >> >>DW From wester6935 at comcast.net Wed Jun 3 16:41:51 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:41:51 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." In-Reply-To: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The video is of a guy on top of an electric train, likely in India who grabs the overhead power lines for balance and fries himself. I seems that lots of folks can open it and some get nothing at all. I don't know enough to solve the problem. Sorry. Wes On Jun 3, 2009, at 2:15 PM, dan warner wrote: > I didn't see attachment or link, that's why I responded with ? > > If it has something to do with grounding and teenagers I am ready to > give it a try. > > DW > > --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Doug Odom wrote: > > From: Doug Odom > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." > To: "dan warner" , "LAND SPEED LIST" >, "Wester Potter" > Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 7:26 AM > > OK Dan, Fess UP. Did you try this at home? > > Doug from big ditch > > > > > > > > Don't try this at home!!! > > > > Wes From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Wed Jun 3 17:22:10 2009 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:22:10 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." In-Reply-To: References: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <950E29A5-F391-4B98-BF23-534C11486D38@nancyandjon.org> On Jun 3, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Wester Potter wrote: The video is of a guy on top of an electric train, likely in India who grabs the overhead power lines for balance and fries himself. I seems that lots of folks can open it and some get nothing at all. I don't know enough to solve the problem. Sorry. Wes Wes, I got the email from you ( I think I did) and there wasn't any attachment for me to try to open. I've seen the video in question -- with the flaming head, right? But there wasn't an attachment in your email. I know, maybe it was an Upper Peninsula thing. . . Jon Wennerberg Tall guy with moustache and a pair of 2 Club hats From neil at dbelltech.com Wed Jun 3 17:27:14 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:27:14 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." In-Reply-To: References: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <636A0C67FEC94286A34BB395D84AB026@DBTech> Wes; "... a guy on top of an electric train, ... who grabs the overhead power lines for balance and fries himself." "I don't know enough to solve the problem." Don't touch the power line! Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wester Potter Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:42 PM To: dan warner Cc: LAND SPEED LIST Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." The video is of a guy on top of an electric train, likely in India who grabs the overhead power lines for balance and fries himself. I seems that lots of folks can open it and some get nothing at all. I don't know enough to solve the problem. Sorry. Wes On Jun 3, 2009, at 2:15 PM, dan warner wrote: > I didn't see attachment or link, that's why I responded with ? > > If it has something to do with grounding and teenagers I am ready to > give it a try. > > DW > > --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Doug Odom wrote: > > From: Doug Odom > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." > To: "dan warner" , "LAND SPEED LIST" >, "Wester Potter" > Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 7:26 AM > > OK Dan, Fess UP. Did you try this at home? > > Doug from big ditch > > > > > > > > Don't try this at home!!! > > > > Wes Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From adin at frontier.net Wed Jun 3 17:43:24 2009 From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:43:24 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." References: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <68B3139A52AF4453B5A5B6664030AFC3@ZTxp> Fries himself to death . . .and then catches on fire. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" To: "dan warner" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." > The video is of a guy on top of an electric train, likely in India who > grabs the overhead power lines for balance and fries himself. I seems > that lots of folks can open it and some get nothing at all. I don't > know enough to solve the problem. > > Sorry. > > Wes > > On Jun 3, 2009, at 2:15 PM, dan warner wrote: > >> I didn't see attachment or link, that's why I responded with ? >> >> If it has something to do with grounding and teenagers I am ready to >> give it a try. >> >> DW >> >> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Doug Odom wrote: >> >> From: Doug Odom >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." >> To: "dan warner" , "LAND SPEED LIST" >> > >, "Wester Potter" >> Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 7:26 AM >> >> OK Dan, Fess UP. Did you try this at home? >> >> Doug from big ditch >> >> >> > >> > >> > Don't try this at home!!! >> > >> > Wes > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Wed Jun 3 19:13:11 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:13:11 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." In-Reply-To: References: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201C477AD5C74639B87C21F14F9779F4@GlenPC> It came thru the 2nd time Wes sent it. Sure fried his ass. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" To: "dan warner" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." > The video is of a guy on top of an electric train, likely in India who > grabs the overhead power lines for balance and fries himself. I seems > that lots of folks can open it and some get nothing at all. I don't > know enough to solve the problem. > > Sorry. > > Wes > > On Jun 3, 2009, at 2:15 PM, dan warner wrote: > >> I didn't see attachment or link, that's why I responded with ? >> >> If it has something to do with grounding and teenagers I am ready to >> give it a try. >> >> DW >> >> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Doug Odom wrote: >> >> From: Doug Odom >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." >> To: "dan warner" , "LAND SPEED LIST" >> > >, "Wester Potter" >> Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 7:26 AM >> >> OK Dan, Fess UP. Did you try this at home? >> >> Doug from big ditch >> >> >> > >> > >> > Don't try this at home!!! >> > >> > Wes > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From gmc6power at earthlink.net Wed Jun 3 18:45:02 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:45:02 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: "You're grounded!.." References: <644717.81533.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <950E29A5-F391-4B98-BF23-534C11486D38@nancyandjon.org> Message-ID: <29338BB3A8504202BC376AEFCF8047B1@mydf7618c59bbf> Got it at work.......His bare feet did him in......Love what high votage can do..........JD--120VDC to 500KV AC for over 40 years > > The video is of a guy on top of an electric train, likely in India who > grabs the overhead power lines for balance and fries himself. I seems > that lots of folks can open it and some get nothing at all. I don't > know enough to solve the problem. > > > > > > Wes, I got the email from you ( I think I did) and there wasn't any > attachment for me to try to open. I've seen the video in question -- > with the flaming head, right? But there wasn't an attachment in your > email. I know, maybe it was an Upper Peninsula thing. . . From sardatech at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 20:18:27 2009 From: sardatech at yahoo.com (tom sarda) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Bellhousing Message-ID: <266526.63934.qm@web54405.mail.yahoo.com> Trying to mate an LS-1 to a Lakewood and Jerico trans. The trans won't mate to the pilot bearing. About..850 in. short. We are replacin the T-56 trans and bellhousing. The issue seems to be the bellhousing. If the Lakewood had .850 in less depth the problem wouldn't exist. Any one ever tried this? Anyone have a thought as to solving this problem? Will a modular bellhousing like Quartermaster or Mccleod make help? thanks. Tom From sardatech at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 21:08:22 2009 From: sardatech at yahoo.com (tom sarda) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] bellhousing Message-ID: <157408.50883.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> Mayf, that suggestion for essentially making the pilot bearing longer solves part of the problem. The other part is that the release bearing is also .850 in short of contacting the fingers of the pressure plate. From v4gmr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 21:18:35 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Bellhousing Message-ID: <111514.1261.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Don't those Lakewood SBC bellhousings come in different depths? Seems to me they do. Or you can make an extension for the pilot bearing . RF --- On Wed, 6/3/09, tom sarda wrote: From: tom sarda Subject: [Land-speed] Bellhousing To: land-speed at autox.team.net Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 7:18 PM Trying to mate an LS-1 to a Lakewood and Jerico trans. The trans won't mate to the pilot bearing. About..850 in. short. We are replacin the T-56 trans and bellhousing. The issue seems to be the bellhousing. If the Lakewood had .850 in less depth the problem wouldn't exist. Any one ever tried this? Anyone have a thought as to solving this problem? Will a modular bellhousing like Quartermaster or Mccleod make help? thanks. Tom Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From dlodom at charter.net Wed Jun 3 22:03:38 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:03:38 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] bellhousing References: <157408.50883.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01d601c9e4c9$71014d80$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Tom, Use a quartermaster floating hydraulic type TO bearing. You can make a shim set up that will work. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom sarda" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 8:08 PM Subject: [Land-speed] bellhousing > Mayf, that suggestion for essentially making the pilot bearing longer > solves part of the problem. The other part is that the release bearing is > also .850 in short of contacting the fingers of the pressure plate. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as dlodom at charter.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From kturk at adelphia.net Thu Jun 4 02:44:15 2009 From: kturk at adelphia.net (Keith Turk) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 03:44:15 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Bellhousing References: <266526.63934.qm@web54405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doug... can't you just make a spacer to bring the Pilot bushing housing out that much? Maybe something that bolts to the flywheel? Hmmm Speedway sells a cool tool to check the depths of these things... but once I saw it... I made my own a few years back... sorry I don't have pictures... hmmm K From v4gmr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 11:21:13 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Bellhousing Message-ID: <751029.75723.qm@web51002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Back when I had an early long bellhousing '51 Chrysler I bought an Offy adapter plate that allow a Saginaw Chevy trans to bolt to the Chrysler It came with a spud that you pressed into the crank where the pilot bearing would go and stuck out the back containing the pilot bearing at the correct depth. I still have one from Offy and one home made one. Even the top loader/Packard deal required the bushing be moved back about 1/2 inch from where Packard had it. But still in the crank. With a spacer I made and pictured in the BRN. --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Keith Turk wrote: From: Keith Turk Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Bellhousing To: "tom sarda" , land-speed at autox.team.net Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:44 AM Doug... can't you just make a spacer to bring the Pilot bushing housing out that much? Maybe something that bolts to the flywheel? Hmmm Speedway sells a cool tool to check the depths of these things... but once I saw it... I made my own a few years back... sorry I don't have pictures... hmmm K _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jun 4 11:51:12 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:51:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... Message-ID: <4A280990.4020901@mayfco.com> Since I started asking the list about suspension parameters related to directional control of he car, something has gelled in the back of my head. Probably my brain, lol. But here is the notion that surfaced. On the salt, there have over the years been lots of spins. Some have even involved wrecks during the spin. So, the question is, is the ages of the drivers in the vehicle known for the time when the spin or slide occurred? I am beginning to think that there may be a correlation to some of us older drivers who may has slower reflexes to deal with the onset of a spin than younger drivers. Is data like that available anywhere? Neither names nor car/vehicle numbers need be known because it is a corelation of spin to driver age that would be of interest. Any ideas where would I start looking for such data? I am suspecting that experience also plays a large part. But some of us go at this later in life and have a very small experience base as well as just being old.. Hey, maybe a driving simulator configured with salt parameters and seat of the pants input would help... Yeah, I can see that now... a roll cage, a 20 SFI suit, helmet, HANS, Funny car booties, Seat belts holdin gyou in so you can hardly breathe, etc... same controls as in a nominal car.... maybe evn a parachute release with the attendant jerk loads.... For oper cars, a large high velocity wind in your face as well. And some heat lamps to simulate the driver being in the car for at least 20 minutes befor a run... heck, coul dmake the car parameters an input to match the drivers car! We could aswk the current administration for bail out money to make it happen. Or just join ACORN and get the money that way... Just some odd thoughts mayf From dlodom at charter.net Thu Jun 4 13:19:42 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:19:42 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Bellhousing References: <751029.75723.qm@web51002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006601c9e549$6a164ef0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Rich, I had to do a similar thing to make the Nissan V6 fit the Lakewood/Liberty set up in the liner. Talked to Pat ( owner of Wilcap ) and he said it would work fine. It really is not that hard to do. Big Ditch Doug ( not to be confused with Dirt track Doug) LOL Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Bellhousing > Back when I had an early long bellhousing '51 Chrysler I bought an Offy > adapter plate that allow a Saginaw Chevy trans to bolt to the Chrysler It > came > with a spud that you pressed into the crank where the pilot bearing would > go > and stuck out the back containing the pilot bearing at the correct depth. > I > still have one from Offy and one home made one. Even the top > loader/Packard > deal required the bushing be moved back about 1/2 inch from where Packard > had > it. But still in the crank. With a spacer I made and pictured in the BRN. From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 15:39:19 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... Message-ID: <77687.22813.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I think this can resolved in three words: Red Hat Fever DW --- On Thu, 6/4/09, drmayf wrote: From: drmayf Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... To: "LSR" Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 10:51 AM Since I started asking the list about suspension parameters related to directional control of he car, something has gelled in the back of my head. Probably my brain, lol. But here is the notion that surfaced. On the salt, there have over the years been lots of spins. Some have even involved wrecks during the spin. So, the question is, is the ages of the drivers in the vehicle known for the time when the spin or slide occurred? I am beginning to think that there may be a correlation to some of us older drivers who may has slower reflexes to deal with the onset of a spin than younger drivers. Is data like that available anywhere? Neither names nor car/vehicle numbers need be known because it is a corelation of spin to driver age that would be of interest. Any ideas where would I start looking for such data? I am suspecting that experience also plays a large part. But some of us go at this later in life and have a very small experience base as well as just being old.. Hey, maybe a driving simulator configured with salt parameters and seat of the pants input would help... Yeah, I can see that now... a roll cage, a 20 SFI suit, helmet, HANS, Funny car booties, Seat belts holdin gyou in so you can hardly breathe, etc... same controls as in a nominal car.... maybe evn a parachute release with the attendant jerk loads.... For oper cars, a large high velocity wind in your face as well. And some heat lamps to simulate the driver being in the car for at least 20 minutes befor a run... heck, coul dmake the car parameters an input to match the drivers car! We could aswk the current administration for bail out money to make it happen. Or just join ACORN and get the money that way... Just some odd thoughts mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jun 4 15:57:31 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:57:31 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... In-Reply-To: <77687.22813.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <77687.22813.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A28434B.9010203@mayfco.com> Certainly not in my case, lol! I have to go 260 to make that happen! And consequently it wont happen, lol. mayf dan warner wrote: > I think this can resolved in three words: > > Red Hat Fever > > DW > > --- On *Thu, 6/4/09, drmayf //* wrote: > > > From: drmayf > Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... > To: "LSR" > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 10:51 AM > > Since I started asking the list about suspension parameters > related to directional control of he car, something has gelled in > the back of my head. Probably my brain, lol. But here is the > notion that surfaced. > > On the salt, there have over the years been lots of spins. Some > have even involved wrecks during the spin. So, the question is, > is the ages of the drivers in the vehicle known for the time when > the spin or slide occurred? I am beginning to think that there may > be a correlation to some of us older drivers who may has slower > reflexes to deal with the onset of a spin than younger drivers. Is > data like that available anywhere? Neither names nor car/vehicle > numbers need be known because it is a corelation of spin to driver > age that would be of interest. Any ideas where would I start > looking for such data? > > I am suspecting that experience also plays a large part. But some > of us go at this later in life and have a very small experience > base as well as just being old.. Hey, maybe a driving simulator > configured with salt parameters and seat of the pants input would > help... Yeah, I can see that now... a roll cage, a 20 SFI suit, > helmet, HANS, Funny car booties, Seat belts holdin gyou in so you > can hardly breathe, etc... same controls as in a nominal car.... > maybe evn a parachute release with the attendant jerk loads.... > For oper cars, a large high velocity wind in your face as well. > And some heat lamps to simulate the driver being in the car for at > least 20 minutes befor a run... heck, coul dmake the car > parameters an input to match the drivers car! We could aswk the > current administration for bail out money to make it happen. Or > just join ACORN and get the money that way... > > Just some odd thoughts > > mayf From yesford at clear.net.nz Thu Jun 4 18:34:05 2009 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:34:05 +1200 Subject: [Land-speed] more miracles References: Message-ID: > The vehicle is to be called the Revenge Verde > Super Car, which will use Mr. Pelmear's 400-horsepower engine and its > 500 foot-pounds of torque to travel up to 200 mph and get 110 mpg - > though admittedly not at the same time. > editorial comment? Bwahahahahahahahaha Certainly what sounds outrageous at one time, new tech easily achieves.................example: Any of the truly outstanding American 'Iowa' class battleships could (and did) march anywhere across the Worlds oceans at a sustained 35 knots. Fuel consumption, or more so, keeping these ships fuelled, a limiting factor. To tell those Navy people back then, what nuclear power, in their very near future would allow makes Mr Pelmear's mill nothing major. Chris H..................NZed From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Thu Jun 4 19:53:06 2009 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:53:06 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... References: <4A280990.4020901@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <001501c9e580$5f7a1260$6401a8c0@Rick> OK Doc I joined the spin out club in 92 (I think). 50 Years old. Car #224. After rains made the course pretty mushy, I did some loops with the Merkur in the 3rd mile. Warner is wrong though. At that point I wasn't really close enough to 200 that I had the fever. That happened the next year and the years that followed with speeds right around 200, but no two back to back... I think the cause of spins tends to be over-reacting to the yaw that can and does occur, and this is a function of seat time. (and too fast steering ratio, and too quick a throttle pedal.) I don't believe its about age directly, as in 07 with the Fusion, I had lots of correcting to do at the high end and no real stability problems. SEAT TIME that 14 years helped with. Plus practicing in the snow and slush of southeastern Michigan. I joke about that, but actually do practice looking out toward the horizon while the tail end of my van is moving all around while accelerating faster than conditions allow. I think it is good training, as long as there are no other cars to hit. I've gone around that way too, but I'm still convinced it is good training. Wanna trade houses for a few years? For the most part I think there are two kind of drivers at Bonneville. Those who have done pirouettes and those that will. Rick From Saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Jun 5 09:01:24 2009 From: Saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 08:01:24 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fuel Mixture Change? Message-ID: <20090605150127.3050C18764F@autox.team.net> List, I am adding an intercooler to my freshened, blown/injected BBC gas engine (15 lbs and 8:1 compression). It seems to me that I should richen the mixture since the induction temp is expected to go down about 300 degrees. BUT....the intercooler and the blower companies say no that the mixture should be left alone for the first pass. How can the engine make more horsepower with cooler induction air but no added fuel????? First pass will be to the 1 and then shut off.........even with the wide band O2 sensor. Because I'm "old school" and parts are expensive. Skip From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Jun 5 09:50:11 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 08:50:11 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fuel Mixture Change? In-Reply-To: <20090605150127.3050C18764F@autox.team.net> References: <20090605150127.3050C18764F@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <4A293EB3.9040003@mayfco.com> Skip, here is why, I think. YMMV, lol. The rootes is a positive displacement device. It pulls the air from whatever ambient conditions are. But the mass of the air is always the same per revolution. When that air gets under the blower it is hot, but it is still the same mass of air. That did not change. It goes through the intercooler and gets chilled somewhat. But the mass of air does not change. Just the temp changed. The mass that goes into the engine is the same mass that the blower pulled in. Since the mass is the same, the fuel requirements are still the same. You just now have a much cooler combustion chamber and are not killing pistons etc from detonation or heat. If you were still running the turbo, which is a constant pressure device rather than a constant volume, then yes, the fuel requirements would need changing becuase the mass of air changes. Thats what makes a turbo the far better choice for power adders (but efi required to make changes, lol). Cool the turbo air and it puts more mass in. mayf.... Skip Higginbotham wrote: > List, > > I am adding an intercooler to my freshened, blown/injected BBC gas > engine (15 lbs and 8:1 compression). > > It seems to me that I should richen the mixture since the induction > temp is expected to go down about 300 degrees. BUT....the intercooler > and the blower companies say no that the mixture should be left alone > for the first pass. > > How can the engine make more horsepower with cooler induction air but > no added fuel????? > > First pass will be to the 1 and then shut off.........even with the > wide band O2 sensor. Because I'm "old school" and parts are expensive. > > Skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Jun 5 09:53:17 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 08:53:17 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fuel Mixture Change? In-Reply-To: <20090605150127.3050C18764F@autox.team.net> References: <20090605150127.3050C18764F@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <4A293F6D.9090306@mayfco.com> Forgot to delete the trailer... bummer here it is again.. mayf Skip, here is why, I think. YMMV, lol. The rootes is a positive displacement device. It pulls the air from whatever ambient conditions are. But the mass of the air is always the same per revolution. When that air gets under the blower it is hot, but it is still the same mass of air. That did not change. It goes through the intercooler and gets chilled somewhat. But the mass of air does not change. Just the temp changed. The mass that goes into the engine is the same mass that the blower pulled in. Since the mass is the same, the fuel requirements are still the same. You just now have a much cooler combustion chamber and are not killing pistons etc from detonation or heat. If you were still running the turbo, which is a constant pressure device rather than a constant volume, then yes, the fuel requirements would need changing becuase the mass of air changes. Thats what makes a turbo the far better choice for power adders (but efi required to make changes, lol). Cool the turbo air and it puts more mass in to maintain teh constsnt presure. mayf.... Skip Higginbotham wrote: > List, > > I am adding an intercooler to my freshened, blown/injected BBC gas > engine (15 lbs and 8:1 compression). > > It seems to me that I should richen the mixture since the induction > temp is expected to go down about 300 degrees. BUT....the intercooler > and the blower companies say no that the mixture should be left alone > for the first pass. > > How can the engine make more horsepower with cooler induction air but > no added fuel????? > > First pass will be to the 1 and then shut off.........even with the > wide band O2 sensor. Because I'm "old school" and parts are expensive. > > Skip > _______________________________________________ From ddahlgren at snet.net Fri Jun 5 10:20:45 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:20:45 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Fuel Mixture Change? In-Reply-To: <4A293EB3.9040003@mayfco.com> References: <20090605150127.3050C18764F@autox.team.net> <4A293EB3.9040003@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <77178691E9174C5EAA4E882486067FE1@DaveSatellite> I think you are going to find the boost is going to go down a good deal as well if you measure it after the intercooler... it would not surprise me to see 8 to 10 lbs and the same power. Half of the boost is just hot air without an intercooler.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "Skip Higginbotham" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fuel Mixture Change? > Skip, here is why, I think. YMMV, lol. The rootes is a positive > displacement device. It pulls the air from whatever ambient conditions > are. But the mass of the air is always the same per revolution. When that > air gets under the blower it is hot, but it is still the same mass of air. > That did not change. It goes through the intercooler and gets chilled > somewhat. But the mass of air does not change. Just the temp changed. The > mass that goes into the engine is the same mass that the blower pulled in. > Since the mass is the same, the fuel requirements are still the same. You > just now have a much cooler combustion chamber and are not killing pistons > etc from detonation or heat. If you were still running the turbo, which is > a constant pressure device rather than a constant volume, then yes, the > fuel requirements would need changing becuase the mass of air changes. > Thats what makes a turbo the far better choice for power adders (but efi > required to make changes, lol). Cool the turbo air and it puts more mass > in. > > mayf.... From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 20:46:42 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... Message-ID: <138126.33025.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Rick, Thank you: "I think the cause of spins tends to be over-reacting to the yaw that can and does occur, ... and too quick a throttle pedal." = Red Hat Fever DW --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Rick Byrnes wrote: From: Rick Byrnes Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "LSR" Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 6:53 PM OK Doc I joined the spin out club in 92 (I think). 50 Years old. Car #224. After rains made the course pretty mushy, I did some loops with the Merkur in the 3rd mile. Warner is wrong though. At that point I wasn't really close enough to 200 that I had the fever. That happened the next year and the years that followed with speeds right around 200, but no two back to back... I think the cause of spins tends to be over-reacting to the yaw that can and does occur, and this is a function of seat time. (and too fast steering ratio, and too quick a throttle pedal.) I don't believe its about age directly, as in 07 with the Fusion, I had lots of correcting to do at the high end and no real stability problems. SEAT TIME that 14 years helped with. Plus practicing in the snow and slush of southeastern Michigan. I joke about that, but actually do practice looking out toward the horizon while the tail end of my van is moving all around while accelerating faster than conditions allow. I think it is good training, as long as there are no other cars to hit. I've gone around that way too, but I'm still convinced it is good training. Wanna trade houses for a few years? For the most part I think there are two kind of drivers at Bonneville. Those who have done pirouettes and those that will. Rick _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ed at vetteracing.com Fri Jun 5 22:15:58 2009 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 04:15:58 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... Message-ID: Then again...... There are those of us that will toss the car into a spin deliberately when the chute fails to open at 200 and there are a bunch of ATV's and dirt bikes parked at the back door at El Mirage.......... Ed V -----Original Message----- From: dan warner [mailto:dwarner230 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 07:46 PM To: drmayf at mayfco.com, 'LSR', 'Rick Byrnes' Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... Rick, Thank you: "I think the cause of spins tends to be over-reacting to the yaw that can and does occur, ... and too quick a throttle pedal." = Red Hat Fever DW --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Rick Byrnes wrote: From: Rick Byrnes Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins or Slides on the Salt... To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "LSR" Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 6:53 PM OK Doc I joined the spin out club in 92 (I think). 50 Years old. Car #224. After rains made the course pretty mushy, I did some loops with the Merkur in the 3rd mile. Warner is wrong though. At that point I wasn't really close enough to 200 that I had the fever. That happened the next year and the years that followed with speeds right around 200, but no two back to back... I think the cause of spins tends to be over-reacting to the yaw that can and does occur, and this is a function of seat time. (and too fast steering ratio, and too quick a throttle pedal.) I don't believe its about age directly, as in 07 with the Fusion, I had lots of correcting to do at the high end and no real stability problems. SEAT TIME that 14 years helped with. Plus practicing in the snow and slush of southeastern Michigan. I joke about that, but actually do practice looking out toward the horizon while the tail end of my van is moving all around while accelerating faster than conditions allow. I think it is good training, as long as there are no other cars to hit. I've gone around that way too, but I'm still convinced it is good training. Wanna trade houses for a few years? For the most part I think there are two kind of drivers at Bonneville. Those who have done pirouettes and those that will. Rick From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Jun 7 17:54:40 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:54:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Message-ID: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that inertial switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I purchased one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the formula ford cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for such a small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will trigger. AN dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the other. I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a simple spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG and just a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not to mount it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for these items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. If a simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire extinguishers why wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next question, for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle or impact did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is working fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have sent the company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would take to trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the answer, I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and bought one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf From v4gmr at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 19:55:50 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Message-ID: <87416.50927.qm@web51003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Not having any junkyards around here anymore i went to the Ford dealer and bought mine. It takes a soild wack to trigger it when hand held. I have not really wanted to wack the car to see what happens. I could take a rawhide hammer to the frame rail and see what happens. --- On Sun, 6/7/09, drmayf wrote: From: drmayf Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches To: "LSR" Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 4:54 PM Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that inertial switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I purchased one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the formula ford cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for such a small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will trigger. AN dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the other. I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a simple spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG and just a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not to mount it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for these items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. If a simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire extinguishers why wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next question, for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle or impact did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is working fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have sent the company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would take to trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the answer, I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and bought one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ed at vetteracing.com Sun Jun 7 21:08:10 2009 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 03:08:10 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Message-ID: If it is THAT sensitive, bumps from the push truck might trip it........ Ed V -----Original Message----- From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 04:54 PM To: 'LSR' Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that inertial switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I purchased one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the formula ford cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for such a small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will trigger. AN dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the other. I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a simple spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG and just a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not to mount it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for these items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. If a simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire extinguishers why wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next question, for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle or impact did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is working fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have sent the company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would take to trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the answer, I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and bought one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf From gmc6power at earthlink.net Sun Jun 7 22:20:20 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:20:20 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches References: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <78621E20F1E9496EBFD61B87C7A2D7E5@mydf7618c59bbf> However, I am surprised at just how > easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that > hand around, it will trigger. > Pegasus says it takes 10 to 12 G's to activate it. It looks like others I have researched. Do the instructions say maximum amps, place it inline with the power going to the electric pump, or to use a relay. Thanks From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 7 23:45:10 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:45:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1904341392.1539061244439910968.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> As long as the vehicle does not move it won't activate! What's wrong with that? Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Van Scoy" To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "LSR" Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 8:08:10 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches If it is THAT sensitive, bumps from the push truck might trip it........ Ed V -----Original Message----- From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 04:54 PM To: 'LSR' Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that inertial switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I purchased one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the formula ford cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for such a small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will trigger. AN dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the other. I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a simple spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG and just a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not to mount it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for these items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. If a simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire extinguishers why wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next question, for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle or impact did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is working fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have sent the company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would take to trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the answer, I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and bought one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Mon Jun 8 05:39:25 2009 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:39:25 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches In-Reply-To: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> References: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> Message-ID: On Jun 7, 2009, at 7:54 PM, drmayf wrote: Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that inertial switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I purchased one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the formula ford cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for such a small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will trigger. AN dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the other. I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a simple spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG and just a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not to mount it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for these items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. If a simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire extinguishers why wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next question, for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle or impact did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is working fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have sent the company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would take to trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the answer, I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and bought one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf _______ Mayf, I think that I remember this specific subject being given a thorough discussion on the Forum over at landracing.com. I think that the consensus was to go to the junkyard and take one out of a relatively recent model Ford car (specifics elude me so early in the morning). I'll see if I can find the thread. The sensitivity of the switch versus the "bump" from the push vehicle was a big issue -- and the store-bought varieties, such as yours from Pegasus, didn't appear to meet the needs of "our" real world needs. Jon Wennerberg Tall guy with moustache and a pair of 2 Club hats From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Mon Jun 8 05:40:50 2009 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:40:50 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches In-Reply-To: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> References: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <2BC57AB3-8D02-4A0E-8CA1-58DBB0A76101@nancyandjon.org> On Jun 7, 2009, at 7:54 PM, drmayf wrote: Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that inertial switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I purchased one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the formula ford cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for such a small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will trigger. AN dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the other. I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a simple spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG and just a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not to mount it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for these items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. If a simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire extinguishers why wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next question, for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle or impact did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is working fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have sent the company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would take to trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the answer, I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and bought one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf Sorry for the double post -- but follow this link to the thread/ discussion: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5080.0.html Jon Wennerberg Tall guy with moustache and a pair of 2 Club hats From v4gmr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 06:27:31 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: Re: Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Message-ID: <371309.81515.qm@web51011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Rich Fox wrote: From: Rich Fox Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 4:55 AM http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getJointLocator&sitei d=215006&chapter=§ionids=6,2782&groupid=10025&subgroupid=60808&make=10&mo del=Taurus&year=1999&catalogid=1&displayCatalogid=0 The first one didn't work try this. RF --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Ed Weldon <23.weldon at comcast.net> wrote: From: Ed Weldon <23.weldon at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches To: "Rich Fox" Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 10:31 PM Thanks, Rich. "Taurus" is a good start. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Fox To: Ed Weldon Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Sorry. I got this thing back when there was a lot of talking about them. About 6 or 7 months ago. I don't have the receipt anymore. It's out of a Taurus. The pigtail to plug it in cost more than the switch it self. --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Ed Weldon <23.weldon at comcast.net> wrote: From: Ed Weldon <23.weldon at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches To: "Rich Fox" Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 9:06 PM Rich -- Can you tell me the part number of that Ford switch? Thanks, Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: "LSR" ; Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches > Not having any junkyards around here anymore i went to the Ford dealer and > bought mine. It takes a soild wack to trigger it when hand held. I have not > really wanted to wack the car to see what happens. I could take a rawhide > hammer to the frame rail and see what happens. > > --- On Sun, 6/7/09, drmayf wrote: From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jun 8 07:35:51 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 06:35:51 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches In-Reply-To: <1904341392.1539061244439910968.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1904341392.1539061244439910968.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A2D13B7.2070506@mayfco.com> Well, dang! Why didn't I think of that? It would be even better if I leave it in the shop on the jack stands! It may come to that, lol. mayf NT788 at comcast.net wrote: > As long as the vehicle does not move it won't activate! What's wrong > with that? > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ed Van Scoy" > To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "LSR" > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 8:08:10 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches > > If it is THAT sensitive, bumps from the push truck might trip it........ > Ed V > -----Original Message----- > From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 04:54 PM > To: 'LSR' > Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches > > Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that > inertial > switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I > purchased > one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the > formula ford > cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for > such a > small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. > If I > have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will > trigger. AN > dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the > other. > I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a > simple > spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG > and just > a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not > to mount > it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are > manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for > these > items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. > If a > simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large > fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire > extinguishers why > wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next > question, > for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle > or impact > did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is > working > fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have > sent the > company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would > take to > trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the > answer, > I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and > bought > one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions > apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From neil at dbelltech.com Mon Jun 8 10:06:56 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:06:56 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches In-Reply-To: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> References: <4A2C5340.6000000@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <14A50E0825C244A7ACBA2BEBB3D72F60@DBTech> Mayf; I bought a Ford impact switch and tried to trigger it; a good whack with a rubber mallet does it but not waving it around in my hand-- that sounds too low a G force. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:55 PM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Always the one to try and be safe, I see in the 2009 rule book that inertial switches for fuel cut off are going to be required for 2010. So I purchased one from Pegasus racing thinking that they sell stuff used by the formula ford cars and SCCA cars as well. Well it came yesterday. Kinda spendy for such a small part. However, I am surprised at just how easy it is to trigger. If I have it in my hand and just briskly wave that hand around, it will trigger. AN dof course, it triggers when I hold it with one hand and bump with the other. I am really thinking that this particular unit may trigger in just a simple spin or near spin. Of course I guess I could mount it right on the CG and just a rotation of the unit woudl occur. The insructions for sure say not to mount it on a panel which can vibrate as that will trigger it. My questions are manifold. Are there going to be, if anyone knows, any kind of spec for these items? I would think that someting akin to an SFI spec is needed here. If a simple piece of foam requires it, then someting that might prevent a large fire should also need a spec as well. We have approved fire extinguishers why wouldn't this also need some kind of at least generic approval. Next question, for you folk that have these already installed. How much of a wiggle or impact did it or does it take to trigger yours? It may simply be that it is working fine and that I can move it fast and hard enough to trigger. I have sent the company an email asking what kind of g levels or just motion it would take to trigger it under normal or not normal circumstances. When I get the answer, I'll post it. Yes, I know that I could have gone to the junk yard and bought one. So exclude any comments about that please. As the same questions apply...what are the trigger levels.... comments? mayf From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Jun 8 10:46:58 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 09:46:58 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2D4082.9070603@wildblue.net> Excellent concern Ed. If it is three axis, I would be concerned about bumps. Pulling off the course could leave you stranded between the course and the return road. I hope that BNI/SCTA will be prepared for that... I also hope everyone has it also turn off the ignition so the salt isn't covered with burned pistons and funny looking con rods. Bryan Ed Van Scoy wrote: > If it is THAT sensitive, bumps from the push truck might trip it........ > Ed V From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Mon Jun 8 11:15:30 2009 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:15:30 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches In-Reply-To: <4A2D4082.9070603@wildblue.net> References: <4A2D4082.9070603@wildblue.net> Message-ID: Dang. Two burning questions . . . 1) How long without fuel before the prize motor becomes a collection of offerings to the gods of speed? 2) Without fuel and ignition . .. How long without fuel before the prize motor becomes a collection of offerings to the gods of speed? I'm sure the answer must be "not very long" - some guess would be appreciated after you make fun of me. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Savage Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 10:47 AM To: Ed Van Scoy Cc: LSR Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inertia Activated Fuel Cut Off Swiches Excellent concern Ed. If it is three axis, I would be concerned about bumps. Pulling off the course could leave you stranded between the course and the return road. I hope that BNI/SCTA will be prepared for that... I also hope everyone has it also turn off the ignition so the salt isn't covered with burned pistons and funny looking con rods. Bryan Ed Van Scoy wrote: > If it is THAT sensitive, bumps from the push truck might trip it........ > Ed V Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Jun 8 11:20:31 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:20:31 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK] Re: Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <028701c9e2fd$43fb5d80$cbf21880$@com> References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> <025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> <4A24474E.5040203@dol.net> <028701c9e2fd$43fb5d80$cbf21880$@com> Message-ID: <4A2D485F.3000009@wildblue.net> Joe, Stepping back to auto transmission preservation... 98% of the heat is generated by the torque converter when it is torque multiplying/converting. The stock old TH-400, C-6 and A-727 quit converting and became a simple fluid coupling at 2600 to 3200 rpm. In that mode they generate about 5-10% of the heat generated in converting mode. I used my 1965 Dodge PU, 318CID & A-727 *without* a trans cooler for almost 40 years pulling numerous heavy trailers in So. Cal. summer heat. When loaded, I always shifted manually to keep the converter out of the game. The trans *never* overheated. I gave it to a friend in 2004. It had 187,000 well serviced miles and was all original. It was due to have the seals replaced but if I let is run for about 1.5 minutes on a cold morning, no problem. The oil in the pan and the can always smelled the same. I like your idea for a tow car. Bryan From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Jun 8 11:21:15 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:21:15 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK] Re: Towing a race car In-Reply-To: <028701c9e2fd$43fb5d80$cbf21880$@com> References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite> <025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> <4A24474E.5040203@dol.net> <028701c9e2fd$43fb5d80$cbf21880$@com> Message-ID: <4A2D488B.30406@wildblue.net> Joe, Stepping back to auto transmission preservation... 98% of the heat is generated by the torque converter when it is torque multiplying/converting. The stock old TH-400, C-6 and A-727 quit converting and became a simple fluid coupling at 2600 to 3200 rpm. In that mode they generate about 5% of the heat generated in converting mode. I used my 1965 Dodge PU, 318CID & A-727 *without* a trans cooler for almost 40 years pulling numerous heavy trailers in So. Cal. summer heat. When loaded, I always shifted manually to keep the converter out of the game. The trans *never* overheated. I gave it to a friend in 2004. It had 187,000 well serviced miles and was all original. It was due to have the seals replaced but if I let is run for about 1.5 minutes on a cold morning, no problem. The oil in the pan and the can always smelled the same. I like your idea for a tow car. Bryan From karhu at california.com Mon Jun 8 15:51:12 2009 From: karhu at california.com (Benn) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:51:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK] Re: Towing a race car References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite><025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> <4A24474E.5040203@dol.net><028701c9e2fd$43fb5d80$cbf21880$@com> <4A2D485F.3000009@wildblue.net> Message-ID: With the typical trans coolers inside the engine radiator, I would think it would be hard to heat the trans oil much above the coolant temp. Yay? Nay? Maybe those coolers aren't very efficient... Another instance when I wish i had a manual tranny. Benn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Savage" To: "John Staiger" Cc: "'LAND SPEED LIST'" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK] Re: Towing a race car > Joe, > > Stepping back to auto transmission preservation... > > 98% of the heat is generated by the torque converter when it is > torque multiplying/converting. > The stock old TH-400, C-6 and A-727 quit converting and became a > simple fluid coupling at 2600 to 3200 rpm. In that mode they generate > about 5-10% of the heat generated in converting mode. > > I used my 1965 Dodge PU, 318CID & A-727 *without* a trans cooler for > almost 40 years pulling numerous heavy trailers in So. Cal. summer heat. > When loaded, I always shifted manually to keep the converter out of the > game. > The trans *never* overheated. > I gave it to a friend in 2004. It had 187,000 well serviced miles and was > all original. It was due to have the seals replaced but if I let is run > for > about 1.5 minutes on a cold morning, no problem. The oil in the pan > and the can always smelled the same. > > I like your idea for a tow car. > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as karhu at california.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Jun 8 19:23:12 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:23:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK] Re: Towing a race car In-Reply-To: References: <7B8BAE5419BC46C99FCD5FC13D65B9E4@DaveSatellite><025101c9e2d7$13bd7840$3b3868c0$@com> <4A24474E.5040203@dol.net><028701c9e2fd$43fb5d80$cbf21880$@com> <4A2D485F.3000009@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <4A2DB980.8070600@wildblue.net> Benn, The oil to water heat exchangers in the average radiator works fine if you don't ask it to deal with more heat than it's design called for. You can't use a Honda Civic radiator on a Kenworth. A stock oil cooler will handle up to about 6-8KW worth of heat. But --- the torque converter of a big old 460 Lincoln can generate a peak 30,000 to 40,000 KW worth of heat getting a heavy load rolling. That said, I would never pull a trailer with a anything but an automatic. It is so much easier when you get in a tight spot. Right foot on the gas and left on the brake. Piece of cake. Bryan From saltfevr at q.com Tue Jun 9 20:46:34 2009 From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:46:34 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction Message-ID: Looks like a huge auto auction is set for Petersen Museum in So Cal for Sat. Sept. 26,2009. Some heavy hitters including the Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster,plus the 1951 Tom Beatty Belly Tank Lakester. Also stuff from Ohio George,Bill Maverik.Ed Roth,& others. Find the lsr stuff on page 2 of 3: http://www.rmauctions.com/search-upcoming.cfm?parentsection=search&SortBy=AL& searchSubmit=1&Sale=RW09&yearFrom=&yearTo=&LotNum2=&Make=&Model# Tom Shannon Magna, Utah From dlodom at charter.net Tue Jun 9 22:50:40 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:50:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction References: Message-ID: <005f01c9e987$01e54830$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Some guy bought that Buddy Baker Dodge on ebay for $800K last year from Cotton Owens. There was another bidder that lost out in the last 3 seconds so maybe he will buy it this time. I'm just glad a real racer ( Cotton ) got the big money first. Cotton and Harry Hyde were a couple my heros back in the day. Big ditch Doug > Looks like a huge auto auction is set for Petersen Museum in So Cal for > Sat. > Sept. 26,2009. Some heavy hitters including the Sadd,Teague,Bentley > Roadster,plus the 1951 Tom Beatty Belly Tank Lakester. > > Also stuff from Ohio George,Bill Maverik.Ed Roth,& others. Find the lsr > stuff > on page 2 of 3: > > http://www.rmauctions.com/search-upcoming.cfm?parentsection=search&SortBy=AL& > searchSubmit=1&Sale=RW09&yearFrom=&yearTo=&LotNum2=&Make=&Model# > Tom Shannon > Magna, Utah > _______________________________________________ From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 10:31:18 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction Message-ID: <829828.32536.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Looks like a close out sale from the museum in Winnemuka. The background for most the photos are from the area. Miller and I saw most of those cars last August when we went by after Speedweek. Al's streamliner is in there too. DW --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Doug Odom wrote: From: Doug Odom Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction To: "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 9:50 PM Some guy bought that Buddy Baker Dodge on ebay for $800K last year from Cotton Owens. There was another bidder that lost out in the last 3 seconds so maybe he will buy it this time. I'm just glad a real racer ( Cotton ) got the big money first. Cotton and Harry Hyde were a couple my heros back in the day. Big ditch Doug > Looks like a huge auto auction is set for Petersen Museum in So Cal for Sat. > Sept. 26,2009. Some heavy hitters including the Sadd,Teague,Bentley > Roadster,plus the 1951 Tom Beatty Belly Tank Lakester. > > Also stuff from Ohio George,Bill Maverik.Ed Roth,& others. Find the lsr stuff > on page 2 of 3: > > http://www.rmauctions.com/search-upcoming.cfm?parentsection=search&SortBy=AL& > searchSubmit=1&Sale=RW09&yearFrom=&yearTo=&LotNum2=&Make=&Model# > Tom Shannon > Magna, Utah > _______________________________________________ Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ddahlgren at snet.net Wed Jun 10 11:19:06 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:19:06 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction In-Reply-To: <829828.32536.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <829828.32536.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C3B6226B174428DB10D74BB17ED1C6E@DaveSatellite> In a way that really sucks to be honest.. A piece of history that it would be very cool to see gets donated i assume and correct me if i am wrong by the owner so it can be a piece of history preserved for all gets auctioned off I assume the a portion of the proceds go to the person who donated it but betting no..sigh.. Hopefully the donors got a monster tax write off in the beginnig.. How can you put a price tag on Al's streamliner or a lot of the others cars bikes and rolling art there??????? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "dan warner" To: "Tom Shannon" ; ; "Doug Odom" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > Looks like a close out sale from the museum in Winnemuka. The background > for > most the photos are from the area. Miller and I saw most of those cars > last > August when we went by after Speedweek. Al's streamliner is in there too. > > DW > > --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Doug Odom wrote: > > > From: Doug Odom > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > To: "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 9:50 PM > > > Some guy bought that Buddy Baker Dodge on ebay for $800K last year from > Cotton > Owens. There was another bidder that lost out in the last 3 seconds so > maybe > he will buy it this time. I'm just glad a real racer ( Cotton ) got the > big > money first. Cotton and Harry Hyde were a couple my heros back in the day. > Big ditch Doug > > > > >> Looks like a huge auto auction is set for Petersen Museum in So Cal for > Sat. >> Sept. 26,2009. Some heavy hitters including the Sadd,Teague,Bentley >> Roadster,plus the 1951 Tom Beatty Belly Tank Lakester. >> >> Also stuff from Ohio George,Bill Maverik.Ed Roth,& others. Find the lsr > stuff >> on page 2 of 3: From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 11:43:14 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction Message-ID: <690906.99223.qm@web52505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> As far as I know there was no donation, all cars in the museum were bought outright. If you look at the aucton site you will see almost all the cars that were there. From both the temp showroom and the storage buildings. DW --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Dave Dahlgren wrote: From: Dave Dahlgren Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction To: "dan warner" , "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net, "Doug Odom" Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:19 AM In a way that really sucks to be honest.. A piece of history that it would be very cool to see gets donated i assume and correct me if i am wrong by the owner so it can be a piece of history preserved for all gets auctioned off I assume the a portion of the proceds go to the person who donated it but betting no..sigh.. Hopefully the donors got a monster tax write off in the beginnig.. How can you put a price tag on Al's streamliner or a lot of the others cars bikes and rolling art there??????? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "dan warner" To: "Tom Shannon" ; ; "Doug Odom" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > Looks like a close out sale from the museum in Winnemuka. The background for > most the photos are from the area. Miller and I saw most of those cars last > August when we went by after Speedweek. Al's streamliner is in there too. > > DW > > --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Doug Odom wrote: > > > From: Doug Odom > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > To: "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 9:50 PM > > > Some guy bought that Buddy Baker Dodge on ebay for $800K last year from Cotton > Owens. There was another bidder that lost out in the last 3 seconds so maybe > he will buy it this time. I'm just glad a real racer ( Cotton ) got the big > money first. Cotton and Harry Hyde were a couple my heros back in the day. > Big ditch Doug > > > > >> Looks like a huge auto auction is set for Petersen Museum in So Cal for > Sat. >> Sept. 26,2009. Some heavy hitters including the Sadd,Teague,Bentley >> Roadster,plus the 1951 Tom Beatty Belly Tank Lakester. >> >> Also stuff from Ohio George,Bill Maverik.Ed Roth,& others. Find the lsr > stuff >> on page 2 of 3: From NT788 at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 15:50:11 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:50:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction In-Reply-To: <3C3B6226B174428DB10D74BB17ED1C6E@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <212136349.2655571244670611842.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Cars are an investment, to a lot of very "important" people! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dahlgren" To: "dan warner" , "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net, "Doug Odom" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:19:06 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction In a way that really sucks to be honest.. A piece of history that it would be very cool to see gets donated i assume and correct me if i am wrong by the owner so it can be a piece of history preserved for all gets auctioned off I assume the a portion of the proceds go to the person who donated it but betting no..sigh.. Hopefully the donors got a monster tax write off in the beginnig.. How can you put a price tag on Al's streamliner or a lot of the others cars bikes and rolling art there??????? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "dan warner" To: "Tom Shannon" ; ; "Doug Odom" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > Looks like a close out sale from the museum in Winnemuka. The background > for > most the photos are from the area. Miller and I saw most of those cars > last > August when we went by after Speedweek. Al's streamliner is in there too. > > DW > > --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Doug Odom wrote: > > > From: Doug Odom > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > To: "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 9:50 PM > > > Some guy bought that Buddy Baker Dodge on ebay for $800K last year from > Cotton > Owens. There was another bidder that lost out in the last 3 seconds so > maybe > he will buy it this time. I'm just glad a real racer ( Cotton ) got the > big > money first. Cotton and Harry Hyde were a couple my heros back in the day. > Big ditch Doug > > > > >> Looks like a huge auto auction is set for Petersen Museum in So Cal for > Sat. >> Sept. 26,2009. Some heavy hitters including the Sadd,Teague,Bentley >> Roadster,plus the 1951 Tom Beatty Belly Tank Lakester. >> >> Also stuff from Ohio George,Bill Maverik.Ed Roth,& others. Find the lsr > stuff >> on page 2 of 3: _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From daw1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 16:18:59 2009 From: daw1 at comcast.net (daw1 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:18:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction In-Reply-To: <212136349.2655571244670611842.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <742210400.3403281244672339981.JavaMail.root@sz0043a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> And a way of life to others. doug ----- Original Message ----- From: NT788 at comcast.net To: "Dave Dahlgren" Cc: land-speed at autox.team.net Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:50:11 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction Cars are an investment, to a lot of very "important" people! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dahlgren" To: "dan warner" , "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net, "Doug Odom" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:19:06 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction In a way that really sucks to be honest.. A piece of history that it would be very cool to see gets donated i assume and correct me if i am wrong by the owner so it can be a piece of history preserved for all gets auctioned off I assume the a portion of the proceds go to the person who donated it but betting no..sigh.. Hopefully the donors got a monster tax write off in the beginnig.. How can you put a price tag on Al's streamliner or a lot of the others cars bikes and rolling art there??????? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "dan warner" To: "Tom Shannon" ; ; "Doug Odom" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > Looks like a close out sale from the museum in Winnemuka. The background > for > most the photos are from the area. Miller and I saw most of those cars > last > August when we went by after Speedweek. Al's streamliner is in there too. > > DW > > --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Doug Odom wrote: > > > From: Doug Odom > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction > To: "Tom Shannon" , land-speed at autox.team.net > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 9:50 PM > > > Some guy bought that Buddy Baker Dodge on ebay for $800K last year from > Cotton > Owens. There was another bidder that lost out in the last 3 seconds so > maybe > he will buy it this time. I'm just glad a real racer ( Cotton ) got the > big > money first. Cotton and Harry Hyde were a couple my heros back in the day. > Big ditch Doug > > > > >> Looks like a huge auto auction is set for Petersen Museum in So Cal for > Sat. >> Sept. 26,2009. Some heavy hitters including the Sadd,Teague,Bentley >> Roadster,plus the 1951 Tom Beatty Belly Tank Lakester. >> >> Also stuff from Ohio George,Bill Maverik.Ed Roth,& others. Find the lsr > stuff >> on page 2 of 3: Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as daw1 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jun 10 16:19:06 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:19:06 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. mayf From neil at dbelltech.com Wed Jun 10 16:25:42 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:25:42 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> Coreollis? :) Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:19 PM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ddahlgren at snet.net Wed Jun 10 16:47:12 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:47:12 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> Message-ID: <94364B9AECAC478AB99D40BD242FAF01@DaveSatellite> Last way it was wiggling before the last stupid move? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "'LSR'" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > Coreollis? :) > > Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:19 PM > To: LSR > Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins > > Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, > guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin > that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a > regular basis, lol... > > Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver > had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. > > mayf > Land-speed mailing list From wester6935 at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 18:10:02 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:10:02 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Coming this weekend on Speed TV Message-ID: <2E11CCAA-18B8-4A16-85C6-9124425E416A@comcast.net> If you don't make it to el Mirage this weekend, turn on your TV. One of the "bucket list" races I'd like to see. ttp://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans/pages/accueil_gb.html [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of affiche_280.jpg.jpeg] From dmirror3 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 19:53:03 2009 From: dmirror3 at yahoo.com (Dale Krumheuer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <683121.52718.qm@web58004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> are we assuming North of the equator ? (coriolis effect ?.. ;) ) Let's not look back in anger or forward in fear, but around in awareness. James Thurber in the foreword to Lanterns & Lances (1961) --- On Wed, 6/10/09, neil at dbelltech.com wrote: From: neil at dbelltech.com Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "'LSR'" Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 6:25 PM Coreollis? :) Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:19 PM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dmirror3 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jun 10 20:00:48 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:00:48 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <94364B9AECAC478AB99D40BD242FAF01@DaveSatellite> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> <94364B9AECAC478AB99D40BD242FAF01@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <4A306550.3000800@mayfco.com> Dang, Dave... why didn't I think of that! Probably because I had my head up my anal orifice.... Well, some cars, I hear, just naturally want to spin in one direction. I was fishing for why that might be and maybe some conjecture. mayf Dave Dahlgren wrote: > Last way it was wiggling before the last stupid move? > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: ; "'LSR'" > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > > >> Coreollis? :) >> >> Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ >> -----Original Message----- >> From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net >> [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf >> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:19 PM >> To: LSR >> Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins >> >> Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, >> guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently >> spin that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do >> this on a regular basis, lol... >> >> Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the >> driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. >> >> mayf >> Land-speed mailing list From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jun 10 20:01:32 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:01:32 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> Message-ID: <4A30657B.7020609@mayfco.com> Who's she and why does she have anything to do with it? mayf neil at dbelltech.com wrote: >Coreollis? :) > >Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ >-----Original Message----- >From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net >[mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf >Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:19 PM >To: LSR >Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins > >Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, >guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin >that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a >regular basis, lol... > >Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver >had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. > >mayf >_______________________________________________ From wester6935 at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 23:29:15 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:29:15 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <4A30657B.7020609@mayfco.com> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> <4A30657B.7020609@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <8036C2E9-13A6-4F6D-9C4A-B3092B7D394F@comcast.net> Apparently she can be nasty ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect - Must be a STD:Speed Transmitted Disease. Wes On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:01 PM, drmayf wrote: > Who's she and why does she have anything to do with it? > > mayf > neil at dbelltech.com wrote: > >> Coreollis? :) >> >> Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ >> -----Original Message----- >> From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net >> [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf >> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:19 PM >> To: LSR >> Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins >> >> Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, >> theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and >> consistently spin that direction? Just curious as it is not my >> intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... >> >> Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the >> driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. >> >> mayf >> _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From kturk at adelphia.net Thu Jun 11 02:54:45 2009 From: kturk at adelphia.net (Keith Turk) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:54:45 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com><9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech><4A30657B.7020609@mayfco.com> <8036C2E9-13A6-4F6D-9C4A-B3092B7D394F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8A1BA3F633744E62975F8711A19E911B@keithhrijwmm4p> Mayf.... my guess would be torque steer... I've heard airplanes have issues with it too... ( not a Real airplane pilot )... K From saltrat at pahrump.com Thu Jun 11 08:49:55 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:49:55 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <8A1BA3F633744E62975F8711A19E911B@keithhrijwmm4p> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> <4A30657B.7020609@mayfco.com> <8036C2E9-13A6-4F6D-9C4A-B3092B7D394F@comcast.net> <8A1BA3F633744E62975F8711A19E911B@keithhrijwmm4p> Message-ID: <20090611144946.9795318787E@autox.team.net> "Torque steer" in aircraft is referred to as "P factor" and occurs mostly during climb to altitude. Real torque steer is noticeable in aircraft with a single powerful engine when initiating takeoff roll and using a lot of power. eg, P-51 Mustang needs a lot of rudder on takeoff with 50" manifold pressure or more. Skip At 01:54 AM 6/11/2009, Keith Turk wrote: >Mayf.... my guess would be torque steer... I've heard airplanes >have issues with it too... ( not a Real airplane pilot )... > >K _______________________________________________ From gmc6power at earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 09:25:39 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:25:39 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <13061393.1244733939478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Just curious as it is not my >>> intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... >>> >>> Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the >>> driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. I believe guys build ther cars symetrical, non-flexible on a flat surface and feel they stay that way during a run. I will not tell everyone to build it like a hooked up sprint car in turn 2 but you need to think about what the vehicle is going thru an how to make adjustments when things do happen. I'm also not saying to build a flexi-flyer like a NHRA top fueler either. All cars will apply force to the driveline and tires in a different way and I believe it to be gradual. Things change thru out the run and the driver needs to be ready for each of them. Letting your car have it's "own head" and bringing it back it a whole lot smarter than quickly making the wrong steering move and correcting what you think is wrong. Many roadster drivers told me our car would become more of a handfull over 185. They also told me the real fun comes when it runs out of horsepower (levels off). They were dead on right on both things. My son spun at 186 making us do a chassis change an old time racer, Bill Temple, told me to do when it spins; but not until it does. The other was at the end of the 4 at 214.5. I only gained 1.5 mph to the 5 and it was the ride of my life. HP leveled off and the 32 grille went hunting. and I was along for the ride. The key was not to over correct a 109" WB car to quickly. I didn't and made it thru the 5 OK at 216.1 One of the other things I've watched over the years is what I call "violent horsepower" nomally it comes with turbo engines but I can happen with all of them at some point. Driving with the egg under your shoe and squeezing the power at the right time comes with seat time on the salt seems to remedy that problem. Good luck to all.............JD From neil at dbelltech.com Thu Jun 11 09:43:29 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:43:29 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <20090611144946.9795318787E@autox.team.net> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com><9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech><4A30657B.7020609@mayfco.com><8036C2E9-13A6-4F6D-9C4A-B3092B7D394F@comcast.net><8A1BA3F633744E62975F8711A19E911B@keithhrijwmm4p> <20090611144946.9795318787E@autox.team.net> Message-ID: Skip; I've read that a Corsair could stand on one wingtip if the throttle was advanced too quickly on takeoff. That was a big radial engine swinging a huge prpellor. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:50 AM To: Keith Turk; Wester Potter; Larry Mayfield; DaveDahlgren Cc: LSR Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins "Torque steer" in aircraft is referred to as "P factor" and occurs mostly during climb to altitude. Real torque steer is noticeable in aircraft with a single powerful engine when initiating takeoff roll and using a lot of power. eg, P-51 Mustang needs a lot of rudder on takeoff with 50" manifold pressure or more. Skip At 01:54 AM 6/11/2009, Keith Turk wrote: >Mayf.... my guess would be torque steer... I've heard airplanes >have issues with it too... ( not a Real airplane pilot )... > >K _______________________________________________ From saltracer at awwwsome.com Thu Jun 11 09:54:20 2009 From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:54:20 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4A3128AB.00003D.04504@D3DP98F1> Mayf, Over the years, I have spun four times at Bonneville (two in a roadster and twice in the Pierson Coupe). Three times was executed by trying to drive out of a problem when I should have lifted. The fourth time was by pulling it into reverse at 190 mph, however so briefly, did cause a couple of rotations So far, I have not spun at the lakes, however, three other drivers have spun my roadsters there. At Bonneville, one driver has multiple spins (three) in the present coupe with a crash on the last spin. It seems to me that, as Dan has suggested, spins are the result, in most cases, of too much input from the driver. Short cars are going to react to steering input more quickly and radically than longer cars. Longer cars have more stability because of the air flow, I suspect. Think of a dart and an arrow. Darts require more tail feather than an arrow to be stable. There were multiple reasons for our crash. First we had an unbalanced car which was corrected by adding 500 lbs behind the front wheels that corrected the rear coming around when the drive wheels broke loose. Big mistake, when we broke a front suspension arm, because of coil binding, when the car hit a hole on turning out. We repaired the suspension arm and I removed about half of the weight we had used to balance the car. This time when it got loose, it did a couple of slow rotations, instead of the snap spins previously, resulting in two times. This was also very soft salt! I think that the most knowledgeable person on short cars handling is Bill Ward. His Opel ran in excess of 250 mph with a blown Chev, but with much massaging of the aerodynamics. Always think ICE when driving at high speed. Another note...I have learned while driving on slick roads that when you lift abruptly you will end up in a slide, the back end wants to come around. By applying a bit of throttle you can regain control. Again, at Bonneville, if in trouble, lifting a bit has shown me that the car will right itself, abrupt lifting can become a bigger problem. Tom, Redding CA = #216 D/FCC [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_animation_panda_en_020908.gif] From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jun 11 10:17:18 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:17:18 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <13061393.1244733939478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <13061393.1244733939478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A312E0E.60607@mayfco.com> Interesting thoughts, JD. Several thing there that I am a firm believer in. When you run out of push from the drive wheels, things get sporty. I drive with my hands on the wheel like I am gripping a live bird. No sudden moves, ever. If the car wants to drift around a bit, I let it. Just keep it between the lines. Care to share with me, on or off list, what the chassis change that Bill Temple told you to do? Just for curiosity, which way di dyou car spin, if it did? ANd was it consistently that way? Thanks, JD mayf James Tone wrote: > Just curious as it is not my > > >>>>intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... >>>> >>>>Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the >>>>driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. >>>> >>>> > >I believe guys build ther cars symetrical, non-flexible on a flat surface and feel they stay that way during a run. I will not tell everyone to build it like a hooked up sprint car in turn 2 but you need to think about what the vehicle is going thru an how to make adjustments when things do happen. I'm also not saying to build a flexi-flyer like a NHRA top fueler either. > >All cars will apply force to the driveline and tires in a different way and I believe it to be gradual. Things change thru out the run and the driver needs to be ready for each of them. Letting your car have it's "own head" and bringing it back it a whole lot smarter than quickly making the wrong steering move and correcting what you think is wrong. > >Many roadster drivers told me our car would become more of a handfull over 185. They also told me the real fun comes when it runs out of horsepower (levels off). They were dead on right on both things. My son spun at 186 making us do a chassis change an old time racer, Bill Temple, told me to do when it spins; but not until it does. The other was at the end of the 4 at 214.5. I only gained 1.5 mph to the 5 and it was the ride of my life. HP leveled off and the 32 grille went hunting. and I was along for the ride. The key was not to over correct a 109" WB car to quickly. I didn't and made it thru the 5 OK at 216.1 > >One of the other things I've watched over the years is what I call "violent horsepower" nomally it comes with turbo engines but I can happen with all of them at some point. Driving with the egg under your shoe and squeezing the power at the right time comes with seat time on the salt seems to remedy that problem. Good luck to all.............JD >_______________________________________________ From gmc6power at earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 12:45:56 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:45:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <3420503.1244745956419.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Just curious as it is not my >>>> intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... >>>> >>>> Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the >>>> driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. > >I believe guys build ther cars symetrical, non-flexible on a flat surface and feel they stay that way during a run. I will not tell everyone to build it like a hooked up sprint car in turn 2 but you need to think about what the vehicle is going thru an how to make adjustments when things do happen. I'm also not saying to build a flexi-flyer like a NHRA top fueler either. > >All cars will apply force to the driveline and tires in a different way and I believe it to be gradual. Things change thru out the run and the driver needs to be ready for each of them. Letting your car have it's "own head" and bringing it back it a whole lot smarter than quickly making the wrong steering move and correcting what you think is wrong. > >Many roadster drivers told me our car would become more of a handfull over 185. They also told me the real fun comes when it runs out of horsepower (levels off). They were dead on right on both things. My son spun at 186 making us do a chassis change an old time racer, Bill Temple, told me to do when it spins; but not until it does. The other was at the end of the 4 at 214.5. I only gained 1.5 mph to the 5 and it was the ride of my life. HP leveled off and the 32 grille went hunting. and I was along for the ride. The key was not to over correct a 109" WB car to quickly. I didn't and made it thru the 5 OK at 216.1 > >One of the other things I've watched over the years is what I call "violent horsepower" nomally it comes with turbo engines but I can happen with all of them at some point. Driving with the egg under your shoe and squeezing the power at the right time comes with seat time on the salt seems to remedy that problem. Good luck to all.............JD From ddahlgren at snet.net Thu Jun 11 13:23:18 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:23:18 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <3420503.1244745956419.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <3420503.1244745956419.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <790F8828BA0A44D79F847653A241D563@DaveSatellite> If you have a turbo and EFI I can draw what ever torque curve needed.. Only poorly tuned EFI turbo cars are violent... Not even close to an opinion but a fact.. Dave >>One of the other things I've watched over the years is what I call >>"violent horsepower" nomally it comes with turbo engines but I can happen >>with all of them at some point. Driving with the egg under your shoe and >>squeezing the power at the right time comes with seat time on the salt >>seems to remedy that problem. Good luck to all.............JD From joyseydevil at comcast.net Thu Jun 11 13:59:05 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:59:05 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <6AC0FDC4E68D410BBD9D17826D078AB9@john> Has anybody used De Dion rear suspension to keep driveshaft torque from unevenly loading the rear tires . > Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, > guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin > that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a > regular basis, lol... > > Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver > had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. > > mayf From NT788 at comcast.net Thu Jun 11 14:11:17 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:11:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <6AC0FDC4E68D410BBD9D17826D078AB9@john> Message-ID: <992601447.3019131244751077618.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In the old days the roadsters didn't spin, then the media told us about caster! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burk" To: "LandSpeed List" Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:59:05 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Has anybody used De Dion rear suspension to keep driveshaft torque from unevenly loading the rear tires . > Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, > guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin > that direction? B Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a > regular basis, lol... > > Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver > had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. > > mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Thu Jun 11 14:55:46 2009 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:55:46 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <992601447.3019131244751077618.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <000c01c9ead6$ff3c4290$6401a8c0@Rick> ----- Original Message ----- > In the old days the roadsters didn't spin, then the media told us about Jack, your statement just plays into my weekend project. Front axle is tacked together on front suspension. I have initially set up at 12 degrees but am inclined to decrease to 10. I can tweak with the 4 link adjustments, but not much without screwing up watts linkage and potential rework. After playing with it yesterday I think +- 2 degrees is about all I would be willing to adjust. SO, Jack how much caster do you think we need? OH 250" WB suspended back and front. Straight front axle, 4 link trailing bars, steering rack mounted to axle, and watts linkage pivot mounted low on the chassis to provide a very low roll center. Live rear end with 4 link, Watts and rocker arm push rod actuated coil overs. 2:1 rocker arms will give the shocks and springs some movement with small axle jounce and rebound. Jack and others, any opinions about using an anti roll bar? I'm seriously considering it at both ends. They may help if one side begins to unload, as in steering corrections. I know the subject has been discussed before, and I think I have thought this thing through, but now is my last chance to make a change and I am trying to be open minded. Anyone else? Rick From gmc6power at earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 15:16:12 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:16:12 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <20623852.1244754972159.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Don't remember very many roadsters or short WB cars with EFI when most of the spins I saw happen. A lot of coupes and roadsters get light in the rear too just by body design. Today many are using as many "tricks" as allowable to keep them from getting light. EFI has been a welcome addition to LSR just like our everyday cars...............JD > >If you have a turbo and EFI I can draw what ever torque curve needed.. Only >poorly tuned EFI turbo cars are violent... >Not even close to an opinion but a fact.. >Dave From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Thu Jun 11 16:22:53 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:22:53 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <6AC0FDC4E68D410BBD9D17826D078AB9@john> References: <6AC0FDC4E68D410BBD9D17826D078AB9@john> Message-ID: I have seen probably more spins from the timing trailer at the lakes and salt then anyone. Over the years one can tell when a car is in trouble and if it in our visible area. I have seen them spin under every condition and reason. There is never in most cases when it will happen or where. In 1957 I spun in the 5th mile driving a rear engine modified roadster. Wasn't any thing I did, the crank broke and locked up the drive train and it went round and round. I have seen cars spin because the driver turned out to fast and lost it, I have seen them spin at the lakes because of cross wind and getting a wheel in a rut. Being over aggressive, wheel spin or just a bad handling car. It's the repeat problems with the same vehicle that worries us and we take steps to work with the owner/drivers to correct it. Every run is documented. At Bonneville and the lakes we have people that look into everything we report as needing action. They have years of experience and will work with you and in some cases put you on the trailer if necessary. It doesn't happen to often but is does happen. If there seems to be a problem get the chute out first and in most cases it will save a spin or worse.one rotation will ruin $1400 in tires. Common sense will be your best friend. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burk" To: "LandSpeed List" Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > Has anybody used De Dion rear suspension to keep driveshaft torque from > unevenly loading the rear tires . > > > >> Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, >> guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin >> that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a >> regular basis, lol... >> >> Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver >> had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. >> >> mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 11 16:09:32 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <652160.95308.qm@web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Bob Herda, The Markleys, I think Kenze and Leslie all used swing axle rear ends for pretty much the same reason. Al Holoway built what is now my roadster with the same rear end and spun it,but that was caused by the transmission locking up. The Stay in School roadster sapun pretty much all the time until last year when he took out the suspension and almost all the caster. This after listening to Jack Costella and seeing the model he made to deminstrate how excess caster affects the rear wheel loading when steering. My Vega has 2 degrees caster and everyone who has driven it comented on how it's a one hand, on rails car. Up to 208. No idea what comes aftewr that --- On Thu, 6/11/09, John Burk wrote: From: John Burk Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins To: "LandSpeed List" Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 12:59 PM Has anybody used De Dion rear suspension to keep driveshaft torque from unevenly loading the rear tires . > Been tinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a regular basis, lol... > > Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. > > mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From jdincau at qnet.com Thu Jun 11 16:44:40 2009 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:44:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: I don't think it would help. The engine torque tries to twist the frame and unloads the right rear. Mounting the ring and pinion solidly will just put it's contribution into the chassis with the same end result. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burk" To: "LandSpeed List" Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > Has anybody used De Dion rear suspension to keep driveshaft torque from > unevenly loading the rear tires . From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Thu Jun 11 16:54:45 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:54:45 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sadd,Teague,Bentley Roadster at Auction In-Reply-To: <3C3B6226B174428DB10D74BB17ED1C6E@DaveSatellite> References: <829828.32536.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3C3B6226B174428DB10D74BB17ED1C6E@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <4A318B35.1080404@wildblue.net> On target Dave!! To me, it's kind of like selling Yellowstone, to some foreign Entertainment Company. Bryan Dave Dahlgren wrote: > In a way that really sucks to be honest.. A piece of history that it > would be very cool to see gets donated i assume and correct me if i am > wrong by the owner so it can be a piece of history preserved for all > gets auctioned off I assume the a portion of the proceds go to the > person who donated it but betting no..sigh.. Hopefully the donors got > a monster tax write off in the beginnig.. How can you put a price tag > on Al's streamliner or a lot of the others cars bikes and rolling art > there??????? > Dave From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Thu Jun 11 17:51:33 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:51:33 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <20090611144946.9795318787E@autox.team.net> References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> <9E7ACDF3095C4DEEB12A296A065EF1BC@DBTech> <4A30657B.7020609@mayfco.com> <8036C2E9-13A6-4F6D-9C4A-B3092B7D394F@comcast.net> <8A1BA3F633744E62975F8711A19E911B@keithhrijwmm4p> <20090611144946.9795318787E@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <4A319885.3030606@wildblue.net> My Dad's neighbor drove P-51 in Europe during WWII. I can't remember any details, but I remember him talking about keeping the wing tip off the ground when taking off. He flew B-25 or B-26's at first, didn't care for it, but loved the P-51. After the war, he tried small private planes and gave up. Boring (repeat 10 times). Bryan From joyseydevil at comcast.net Thu Jun 11 19:32:56 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:32:56 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: If I was building a roadster I'd think about using De Dion suspension and a torque tube . >I don't think it would help. The engine torque tries to twist the frame and >unloads the right rear. Mounting the ring and pinion solidly will just put >it's contribution into the chassis with the same end result. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Burk" > To: "LandSpeed List" > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:59 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > > >> Has anybody used De Dion rear suspension to keep driveshaft torque from >> unevenly loading the rear tires . From v4gmr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 11 21:03:12 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] drmayf Message-ID: <152325.23020.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> anybody else notice how your spell check keeps trying to change drmayf into "Dreamy"? From lsr_man at yahoo.com Thu Jun 11 21:08:43 2009 From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] drmayf Message-ID: <338070.25972.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maybe it knows something about DrMayf that we don't?? These computers are pretty smart, you know. DickJ In East Texas --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Rich Fox wrote: From: Rich Fox Subject: [Land-speed] drmayf To: "land-speed" Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 10:03 PM anybody else notice how your spell check keeps trying to change drmayf into "Dreamy"? Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as lsr_man at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jun 11 23:04:50 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:04:50 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] drmayf In-Reply-To: <152325.23020.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <152325.23020.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A31E1F2.2010706@mayfco.com> Well don't look at me I didn't do it... and of all the things I have been called in my life, that isn't one of them, lol... mayf Rich Fox wrote: >anybody else notice how your spell check keeps trying to change drmayf into "Dreamy"? >_______________________________________________ From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jun 11 23:05:26 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:05:26 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] drmayf In-Reply-To: <338070.25972.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <338070.25972.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A31E216.4050207@mayfco.com> Dreamy isn't my style, lol.. mayf Dick J wrote: >Maybe it knows something about DrMayf that we don't?? These computers are >pretty smart, you know. >DickJ >In East Texas > >--- On Thu, 6/11/09, Rich Fox wrote: > > >From: Rich Fox >Subject: [Land-speed] drmayf >To: "land-speed" >Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 10:03 PM > > >anybody else notice how your spell check keeps trying to change drmayf into >"Dreamy"? >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as lsr_man at yahoo.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfever at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 05:18:31 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:18:31 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <002401c9eb4f$855406b0$8ffc1410$@net> How about thrust angle? Does any car have perfect perpendicularity? Without a laser how can you get closer than 1/16". Or, structural distortion from stress changing the thrust angle. Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:19:06 -0700, From: drmayf . . . Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin that direction? From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Jun 12 09:10:32 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:10:32 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <002401c9eb4f$855406b0$8ffc1410$@net> References: <002401c9eb4f$855406b0$8ffc1410$@net> Message-ID: <20090612151021.0CC73187875@autox.team.net> Well, in the absence of other speculation and no volunteers of data supporting the effects of exhaust thrust nor thrust numbers, I would suggest that exhaust thrust can push the front of a car in the direction opposite the thrust. If the exhaust exit is in front of the front wheels, most of it comes out on one side of the car and running front wheel weight on the car is on the low side. If thrust values are in the area of 50 lbs with a moment arm of, say 50 inches, then 2500 inch pounds of rotating torque would seem a lot for a car "skimming along" the surface of the salt. And if it is not "a lot" then it is, at least, some. Having said that, I asked for help some time ago to see if anyone had acquired any exhaust thrust numbers. I seem to remember that sometime in the past, someone had measured exhaust thrust (zoomies) while dynoing but the state of decrepitude of my memory prevents me from having actual data and I don't have the skills necessary to calculate it. My thought is that if such a side thrust condition exists, coupled with an adequate moment arm, then a spin in the direction opposite thrust is not only possible but, I think, likely. Consistent spin tendencies in one direction would seem to support this especially if the spin direction is opposite "normal". Is there data (not unsupported opinions) to dispell this thought? If there is, I would appreciate the opportunity to know the data so I can stop thinking about this...... Thank you, Skip At 04:18 AM 6/12/2009, Kirkwood wrote: >How about thrust angle? Does any car have perfect perpendicularity? Without >a laser how can you get closer than 1/16". Or, structural distortion from >stress changing the thrust angle. > > > >Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:19:06 -0700, From: drmayf > >. . . Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin >one way and consistently spin > >that direction? From NT788 at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 10:24:47 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:24:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <20090612151021.0CC73187875@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <568184403.3327061244823887487.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Any steering input reacting to caster will load or unload one rear wheel. Caster causes spins. There I've said it! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Kirkwood" , "land-speed" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:10:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Well, in the absence of other speculation and no volunteers of data supporting the effects of exhaust thrust nor thrust numbers, I would suggest that exhaust thrust can push the front of a car in the direction opposite the thrust. If the exhaust exit is in front of the front wheels, most of it comes out on one side of the car and running front wheel weight on the car is on the low side. If thrust values are in the area of 50 lbs with a moment arm of, say 50 inches, then 2500 inch pounds of rotating torque would seem a lot for a car "skimming along" the surface of the salt. And if it is not "a lot" then it is, at least, some. Having said that, I asked for help some time ago to see if anyone had acquired any exhaust thrust numbers. I seem to remember that sometime in the past, someone had measured exhaust thrust (zoomies) while dynoing but the state of decrepitude of my memory prevents me from having actual data and I don't have the skills necessary to calculate it. My thought is that if such a side thrust condition exists, coupled with an adequate moment arm, then a spin in the direction opposite thrust is not only possible but, I think, likely. Consistent spin tendencies in one direction would seem to support this especially if the spin direction is opposite "normal". Is there data (not unsupported opinions) to dispell this thought? If there is, I would appreciate the opportunity to know the data so I can stop thinking about this...... Thank you, Skip At 04:18 AM 6/12/2009, Kirkwood wrote: >How about thrust angle? Does any car have perfect perpendicularity? B Without >a laser how can you get closer than 1/16". Or, structural distortion from >stress changing the thrust angle. > > > >Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:19:06 -0700, From: drmayf > >. . . Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin >one way and consistently spin > >that direction? Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Jun 12 10:38:05 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:38:05 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <568184403.3327061244823887487.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryv ille.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <20090612151021.0CC73187875@autox.team.net> <568184403.3327061244823887487.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20090612163754.770B9187661@autox.team.net> You sure did. And an excellent postulation it is too! One question, how can this lead to spins in one direction if the car doesn't tend to go in that direction? Seems to me that the direction of rotation would be random if the car is loaded correctly in the first place. Skip At 09:24 AM 6/12/2009, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: >Any steering input reacting to caster will load or unload one rear >wheel. Caster causes spins. There I've said it! > >Jack > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "Kirkwood" , "land-speed" > >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:10:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > >Well, in the absence of other speculation and no volunteers of data >supporting the effects of exhaust thrust nor thrust numbers, I would >suggest that exhaust thrust can push the front of a car in the >direction opposite the thrust. If the exhaust exit is in front of the >front wheels, most of it comes out on one side of the car and running >front wheel weight on the car is on the low side. If thrust values >are in the area of 50 lbs with a moment arm of, say 50 inches, then >2500 inch pounds of rotating torque would seem a lot for a car >"skimming along" the surface of the salt. And if it is not "a lot" >then it is, at least, some. >Having said that, I asked for help some time ago to see if anyone had >acquired any exhaust thrust numbers. I seem to remember that sometime >in the past, someone had measured exhaust thrust (zoomies) while >dynoing but the state of decrepitude of my memory prevents me from >having actual data and I don't have the skills necessary to calculate >it. My thought is that if such a side thrust condition exists, >coupled with an adequate moment arm, then a spin in the direction >opposite thrust is not only possible but, I think, likely. Consistent >spin tendencies in one direction would seem to support this >especially if the spin direction is opposite "normal". >Is there data (not unsupported opinions) to dispell this thought? If >there is, I would appreciate the opportunity to know the data so I >can stop thinking about this...... > >Thank you, >Skip > > > > > >At 04:18 AM 6/12/2009, Kirkwood wrote: > >How about thrust angle? Does any car have perfect perpendicularity? Without > >a laser how can you get closer than 1/16". Or, structural distortion from > >stress changing the thrust angle. > > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:19:06 -0700, From: drmayf > > > >. . . Are there reasons, theory, guesses, why a particular car would spin > >one way and consistently spin > > > >that direction? From jgmagoo at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 14:29:32 2009 From: jgmagoo at comcast.net (jgmagoo at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:29:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins And Their Causes Message-ID: <1070275223.3676261244838572111.JavaMail.root@sz0086a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> RE: Spins and conjecture as to their causes: I just got to thinking, wouldn't it be wonderful to have a video interviewing about 100 driver's and getting theirB first comments just after they remove their helmet and asking them what caused the spin. Betcha' a dollar it would be an X-rated video!!! ;o) JGMagoo From jgmagoo at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 14:42:07 2009 From: jgmagoo at comcast.net (jgmagoo at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:42:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo Message-ID: <381144742.3680671244839327036.JavaMail.root@sz0086a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Survey:B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been brought to the salt. Whose was it, and when? Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get some kind of a pretty educated estimate. Thanks. JGMagoo From wester6935 at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 15:18:03 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:18:03 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Visual salt check Message-ID: <028B2B90-8152-40E4-BB36-F92A51C343F1@comcast.net> Here's a video that was shot not long ago on the Bonneville Salt Flats. http://www.byucougars.com/Filing.jsp?ID=12439 From joyseydevil at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 15:20:20 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:20:20 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo Message-ID: George Johnson's Saltosaurus . That didn't race at Bonneville , 1906/7 Stanley Rocket Racer . > Survey:B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big > enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been > brought > to the salt. Whose was it, and when? > > > > Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this > theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? > > > > I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race > cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get > some > kind of a pretty educated estimate. From dlodom at charter.net Fri Jun 12 15:23:26 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:23:26 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <568184403.3327061244823887487.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <017801c9eba4$06572c70$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> > Any steering input reacting to caster will load or unload one rear wheel. > Caster causes spins. There I've said it! > > Jack Jack, I agree that caster CAN cause a spin BUT it can also help you from spinning. Think about a sprint car. Short wheelbase and wide tread width with lots of caster to keep it from following ruts in the dirt track. When the car cuts left into the turn the driver turns the wheel to the right keeping the front wheels pointed the direction he wants to go. Now this jacks weight into the left rear tire and off the right rear that is trying to rotate the car. The longer the wheelbase and or narrower the tread width the less caster weight jacking will occur. Put a car on 4 wheel scales and turn the wheel from straight ahead to one side and see how much it changes the rear wheel weights. Now crank as much caster as you can into it and test it again. Or you can just believe me because I have spent hours and hours doing this for roundy round set ups. Big ditch Doug From joyseydevil at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 15:37:46 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:37:46 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <12B61B160A1342B0BF204A692AB657B7@john> Caster doesn't change rear tire loading if scrub is zero . From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Jun 12 17:02:17 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:02:17 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090612230215.45194187658@autox.team.net> Kevin Draper's car, currently active. About 400 hp. Skip At 02:20 PM 6/12/2009, John Burk wrote: >George Johnson's Saltosaurus . That didn't race at Bonneville , >1906/7 Stanley Rocket Racer . > > > >>Survey:B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big >>enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been brought >>to the salt. Whose was it, and when? >> >> >> >>Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this >>theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? >> >> >> >>I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race >>cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get some >>kind of a pretty educated estimate. From v4gmr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 17:24:46 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo Message-ID: <384175.18016.qm@web51007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> It's my personal opinion that Jack and Rick should put wider axles on the 788 car and call it a lakester. That would be pretty streamline. --- On Fri, 6/12/09, jgmagoo at comcast.net wrote: From: jgmagoo at comcast.net Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "land-speed-digest" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:42 PM Survey:B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been brought to the salt. Whose was it, and when? Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get some kind of a pretty educated estimate. Thanks. JGMagoo Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 17:55:36 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:55:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo In-Reply-To: <384175.18016.qm@web51007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <371068446.3484951244850936743.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> You gotta 175 on the short course first! Have you seen Costella Dennee' 6060? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:24:46 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo It's my personal opinion that Jack and Rick should put wider axles on the 788 car and call it a lakester. That would be pretty streamline. --- On Fri, 6/12/09, jgmagoo at comcast.net wrote: From: jgmagoo at comcast.net Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "land-speed-digest" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:42 PM Survey:B B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been brought to the salt. Whose was it, and when? Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get some kind of a pretty educated estimate. Thanks. JGMagoo Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 18:02:06 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:02:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <017801c9eba4$06572c70$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <1207245303.3486181244851326462.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> LSR! Put bicycle tires on a 700hp sprinter. and run it for a land speed record.Then what? Thanks JackB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Odom" To: nt788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:23:26 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > Any steering input reacting to caster will load or unload one rear wheel. > Caster causes spins. There I've said it! > > Jack Jack, I agree that caster CAN cause a spin BUT it can also help you from spinning. Think about a sprint car. Short wheelbase and wide tread width with lots of caster to keep it from following ruts in the dirt track. When the car cuts left into the turn the driver turns the wheel to the right keeping the front wheels pointed the direction he wants to go. Now this jacks weight into the left rear tire and off the right rear that is trying to rotate the car. The longer the wheelbase and or narrower the tread width the less caster weight jacking will occur. Put a car on 4 wheel scales and turn the wheel from straight ahead to one side and see how much it changes the rear wheel weights. Now crank as much caster as you can into it and test it again. Or you can just believe me because I have spent hours and hours doing this for roundy round set ups. Big ditch Doug From NT788 at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 18:04:52 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:04:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <12B61B160A1342B0BF204A692AB657B7@john> Message-ID: <1766925155.3486911244851492036.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Good. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burk" To: "LandSpeed List" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:37:46 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Caster doesn't change rear tire loading if scrub is zero . Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 18:54:06 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo Message-ID: <629908.95450.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Of course i saw it. You took me over to his place to see it. Not saying anything bad about that car. I even told him about the Offy powered (Star Spangled Banger) when I noticed the Offy on the floor in his shop. But I don't think an Offy would go in his car and that was the question. So there. RF --- On Fri, 6/12/09, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: From: NT788 at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "Rich Fox" Cc: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:55 PM #yiv1106920543 p {margin:0;} You gotta 175 on the short course first! Have you seen Costella Dennee' 6060? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:24:46 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo It's my personal opinion that Jack and Rick should put wider axles on the 788 car and call it a lakester. That would be pretty streamline. --- On Fri, 6/12/09, jgmagoo at comcast.net wrote: From: jgmagoo at comcast.net Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "land-speed-digest" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:42 PM Survey:B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been brought to the salt. Whose was it, and when? Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get some kind of a pretty educated estimate. Thanks. JGMagoo Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Jun 12 19:05:29 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:05:29 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... Message-ID: <4A32FB59.3070202@mayfco.com> Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... mayf From yesford at clear.net.nz Fri Jun 12 19:12:02 2009 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:12:02 +1200 Subject: [Land-speed] New land speed vehicles. Message-ID: List, >From time to time I write 'land speed' articles & info for a national Hot Rod magazine. I see Doug Herbert is building a 'LSR' car. Does anyone know of other groups out there building new cars that I could research for an upcoming article. Does the Main/Poteet group or any others similar have websites available? Many thanks, Chris Harris.........................NZed. From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Fri Jun 12 19:24:08 2009 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:24:08 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Here's something for you, Chris References: <000401c9e86a$8d304ca0$8801a8c0@canogarebar.local> Message-ID: <904433E2-1DF3-45EA-9F22-6D40C3A17243@nancyandjon.org> Chris said: List, > From time to time I write 'land speed' articles & info for a > national Hot Rod magazine. I see Doug Herbert is building a 'LSR' car. Does anyone know of other groups out there building new cars that I could research for an upcoming article. Does the Main/Poteet group or any others similar have websites available? Many thanks, Chris Harris.........................NZed. Jon Wennerberg responds: Begin forwarded message: From: "Ron Main" Date: June 8, 2009 2:54:25 PM GMT-04:00 Jon Wennerberg Tall guy with moustache and a pair of 2 Club hats From yesford at clear.net.nz Fri Jun 12 19:40:56 2009 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:40:56 +1200 Subject: [Land-speed] Here's something for you, Chris References: <000401c9e86a$8d304ca0$8801a8c0@canogarebar.local> <904433E2-1DF3-45EA-9F22-6D40C3A17243@nancyandjon.org> Message-ID: <3E35C8F5A90A41B8971096FBF94B2EFF@ChrisHarrisPC> Thanks Jon, Good car, with had great success to date. CH Subject: Here's something for you, Chris Chris said: List, From time to time I write 'land speed' articles & info for a national Hot Rod magazine. I see Doug Herbert is building a 'LSR' car. Does anyone know of other groups out there building new cars that I could research for an upcoming article. Does the Main/Poteet group or any others similar have websites available? Many thanks, Chris Harris.........................NZed. Jon Wennerberg responds: Begin forwarded message: From wester6935 at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 22:00:44 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:00:44 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] cars ... non LSR Message-ID: <30F35ABA-5F93-443D-BACA-EA43F705F552@comcast.net> http://benchrace.com/ From saltrat at pahrump.com Sat Jun 13 08:47:33 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:47:33 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <12B61B160A1342B0BF204A692AB657B7@john> References: <12B61B160A1342B0BF204A692AB657B7@john> Message-ID: <20090613144721.0481F187A60@autox.team.net> At 02:37 PM 6/12/2009, John Burk wrote: >Caster doesn't change rear tire loading if scrub is zero . John, What is a typical factory scrub dimension for a 2WD steering system? And a car racing at lakes and Bonneville? Different for long and short WB? Where can the data be found? Skip From saltrat at pahrump.com Sat Jun 13 08:50:32 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:50:32 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <4A32FB59.3070202@mayfco.com> References: <4A32FB59.3070202@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't good either. Skip At 06:05 PM 6/12/2009, drmayf wrote: >Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and >things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the >pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will >probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... > >mayf From vintagethunder at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 09:09:35 2009 From: vintagethunder at hotmail.com (Udo Horn) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:09:35 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> References: <4A32FB59.3070202@mayfco.com> <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> Message-ID: Skip, There is a great thread on the forum re: "scrub". It's a must read if you experience any instability at high speed. Zero scrub is probably optimum. Hotschue > Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:50:32 -0700 > To: drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net > From: saltrat at pahrump.com > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... > > Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little > about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't good either. > > Skip > > > > At 06:05 PM 6/12/2009, drmayf wrote: > >Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and > >things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the > >pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will > >probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... > > > >mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as vintagethunder at hotmail.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From saltrat at pahrump.com Sat Jun 13 09:18:01 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:18:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: References: <4A32FB59.3070202@mayfco.com> <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <20090613151748.3BEBA1879ED@autox.team.net> OK, which forum? Skip At 08:09 AM 6/13/2009, Udo Horn wrote: >Skip, There is a great thread on the forum re: >"scrub". It's a must read if you experience any >instability at high speed. Zero scrub is probably optimum. > >Hotschue > > > Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:50:32 -0700 > > To: drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net > > From: saltrat at pahrump.com > > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... > > > > Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little > > about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't good either. > > > > Skip > > > > > > > > At 06:05 PM 6/12/2009, drmayf wrote: > > >Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and > > >things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the > > >pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will > > >probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... > > > > > >mayf > > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Land-speed mailing list > > > > You are subscribed as vintagethunder at hotmail.com > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > > >---------- >Windows Live SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free >online storage. >Get >it on your BlackBerry or iPhone. From dlodom at charter.net Sat Jun 13 09:26:59 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:26:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <1207245303.3486181244851326462.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <004101c9ec3b$650aec10$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Jack, I was using a sprint car to show what caster effect was because it is the most extreme example. It is easier for people to understand the idea of what we are talking about by using such a simple car like a sprint car. I never thought about running one for a land speed record. Big Ditch Doug LSR! Put bicycle tires on a 700hp sprinter. and run it for a land speed record.Then what? Thanks Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Odom" To: nt788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:23:26 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > Any steering input reacting to caster will load or unload one rear wheel. > Caster causes spins. There I've said it! > > Jack Jack, I agree that caster CAN cause a spin BUT it can also help you from spinning. Think about a sprint car. Short wheelbase and wide tread width with lots of caster to keep it from following ruts in the dirt track. When the car cuts left into the turn the driver turns the wheel to the right keeping the front wheels pointed the direction he wants to go. Now this jacks weight into the left rear tire and off the right rear that is trying to rotate the car. The longer the wheelbase and or narrower the tread width the less caster weight jacking will occur. Put a car on 4 wheel scales and turn the wheel from straight ahead to one side and see how much it changes the rear wheel weights. Now crank as much caster as you can into it and test it again. Or you can just believe me because I have spent hours and hours doing this for roundy round set ups. Big ditch Doug From saltrat at pahrump.com Sat Jun 13 09:42:27 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:42:27 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.0.20090613081739.01dc2ad8@pahrump.com> References: <4A32FB59.3070202@mayfco.com> <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> <7.1.0.9.0.20090613081739.01dc2ad8@pahrump.com> Message-ID: <20090613154214.2242C1879ED@autox.team.net> OK, I found it. Thanks. Skip At 08:18 AM 6/13/2009, Skip Higginbotham wrote: >OK, which forum? > >Skip > > > >At 08:09 AM 6/13/2009, Udo Horn wrote: >>Skip, There is a great thread on the forum re: "scrub". It's a >>must read if you experience any instability at high speed. Zero >>scrub is probably optimum. >> >>Hotschue >> >> > Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:50:32 -0700 >> > To: drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net >> > From: saltrat at pahrump.com >> > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... >> > >> > Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little >> > about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't >> good either. >> > >> > Skip From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Jun 13 10:49:01 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:49:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <20090613144721.0481F187A60@autox.team.net> References: <12B61B160A1342B0BF204A692AB657B7@john> <20090613144721.0481F187A60@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <4A33D87D.6040506@mayfco.com> Hmmm, not sure I agree with this. Even with zero scrub, when the wheel is turned the the inside wheel has to rotate around the caster angle line and that puts the outer part of th tire tread into lift and a camber turn. No matter what if you have caster it will lift on one side and drop on the other. If the spindle points downward when turned it will load that wheel and vice versa. YMMV mayf Skip Higginbotham wrote: > At 02:37 PM 6/12/2009, John Burk wrote: > >> Caster doesn't change rear tire loading if scrub is zero . > > > > > > John, > > What is a typical factory scrub dimension for a 2WD steering system? > And a car racing at lakes and Bonneville? Different for long and short > WB? Where can the data be found? > > Skip _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Sat Jun 13 11:31:35 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:31:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo In-Reply-To: <629908.95450.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <998049154.3617091244914295924.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Was that you to whom I answered? Greasy lamb chops and wine! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 5:54:06 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo Of course i saw it. You took me over to his place to see it. Not saying anything bad about that car. I even told him about the Offy powered (Star Spangled Banger) when I noticed the OffyB on the floor in his shop. But I don't think an Offy would go in his car and that was the question.B So there.B RFB --- On Fri, 6/12/09, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: From: NT788 at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From> JGMagoo To: "Rich Fox" Cc: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:55 PM You gotta 175 on the short course first! Have you seen Costella Dennee' 6060? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:24:46 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo It's my personal opinion that Jack and Rick should put wider axles on the 788 car and call it a lakester. That would be pretty streamline. --- On Fri, 6/12/09, jgmagoo at comcast.net wrote: From: jgmagoo at comcast.net Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "land-speed-digest" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:42 PM Survey:B B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been brought to the salt. Whose was it, and when? Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get some kind of a pretty educated estimate. Thanks. JGMagoo Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Sat Jun 13 11:33:29 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:33:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <4A33D87D.6040506@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <1442645328.3617641244914409548.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> dats what I tink! B jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "Skip Higginbotham" Cc: "LandSpeed List" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:49:01 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Hmmm, not sure I agree with this. B Even with zero scrub, when the wheel is turned the the inside wheel has to rotate around the caster angle line and that puts the outer part of th tire tread into lift and a camber turn. B No matter what if you have caster it will lift on one side and drop on the other. B If the spindle points downward when turned it will load that wheel and vice versa. YMMV mayf Skip Higginbotham wrote: > At 02:37 PM 6/12/2009, John Burk wrote: > >> Caster doesn't change rear tire loading if scrub is zero . > > > > > > John, > > What is a typical factory scrub dimension for a 2WD steering system? > And a car racing at lakes and Bonneville? Different for long and short > WB? Where can the data be found? > > Skip _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net B http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Sat Jun 13 11:37:54 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:37:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <20090613154214.2242C1879ED@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <1987462733.3618611244914674985.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> To Hotshue And worse with caster! B Jack ---- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Udo Horn" , "dmurf" , "List" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:42:27 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... OK, I found it. Thanks. Skip At 08:18 AM 6/13/2009, Skip Higginbotham wrote: >OK, which forum? > >Skip > > > >At 08:09 AM 6/13/2009, Udo Horn wrote: >>Skip, There is a great thread on the forum re: "scrub". B It's a >>must read if you experience any instability at high speed. B Zero >>scrub is probably optimum. >> >>Hotschue >> >> > Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:50:32 -0700 >> > To: drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net >> > From: saltrat at pahrump.com >> > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... >> > >> > Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little >> > about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't >> good either. >> > >> > Skip Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Sat Jun 13 11:59:18 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:59:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <1274825177.3622311244915958696.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Narrow front tread, caster has less effect, Inline, even less. My latest front end design, has 0 caster,o scrub o camber, o toe in, 0 rake, 0 trail.B I think extreme caster is a hold over from when the old diggers responded to bump steer, by adding more caster.You don't have to worry about alot of this with no suspension. Any scrub exaggerates the caster effect. Extreme scrub with no caster would legthen the outside WB, and shorten the inside. Not Good, (think wagon steering). Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "LSR" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:50:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't good either. Skip At 06:05 PM 6/12/2009, drmayf wrote: >Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and >things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the >pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will >probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... > >mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 13 12:46:08 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo Message-ID: <581761.23360.qm@web51011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm not the only Rich Fox I know, but i am the only one on this list that I know of. RF --- On Sat, 6/13/09, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: From: NT788 at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "Rich Fox" Cc: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 10:31 AM #yiv1449421858 p {margin:0;} Was that you to whom I answered? Greasy lamb chops and wine! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 5:54:06 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo Of course i saw it. You took me over to his place to see it. Not saying anything bad about that car. I even told him about the Offy powered (Star Spangled Banger) when I noticed the Offy on the floor in his shop. But I don't think an Offy would go in his car and that was the question. So there. RF --- On Fri, 6/12/09, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: From: NT788 at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "Rich Fox" Cc: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:55 PM #yiv1449421858 #yiv1106920543 p {margin:0;} You gotta 175 on the short course first! Have you seen Costella Dennee' 6060? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: "land-speed-digest" , jgmagoo at comcast.net Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:24:46 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo It's my personal opinion that Jack and Rick should put wider axles on the 788 car and call it a lakester. That would be pretty streamline. --- On Fri, 6/12/09, jgmagoo at comcast.net wrote: From: jgmagoo at comcast.net Subject: [Land-speed] Survey And Theoretical Question>From>JGMagoo To: "land-speed-digest" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:42 PM Survey:B In your opinion, what is the most streamlined lakester (big enoughB to contain, say a Quad-4 or a 255B Offy), that has ever been brought to the salt. Whose was it, and when? Theoretical Question: How much horsepowerB should be required to make this theoretical, very slippery lakester go 210 MPH on the salt? I know, I know, there's some kind of an old saying about 'theoretical race cars', but I'm guessing that with all the talent on this site, I can get some kind of a pretty educated estimate. Thanks. JGMagoo Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From yesford at clear.net.nz Sat Jun 13 17:38:51 2009 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:38:51 +1200 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <1207245303.3486181244851326462.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <004101c9ec3b$650aec10$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <4C6C46759986442BBA180F28D2F7EF05@ChrisHarrisPC> Sprint cars are a good example Doug. Apparently some sprinters actually have king pin caster only on the front left to jack the right rear. The other king pin has little layback. Excellent info from this discussion. 1. Run castor for it's desirable self centering effect. 2. Set up your front wheel offset to give zero scrub radius to lessen rear wheel loading with steering input. Chris Harris.......................NZed From: "Doug Odom" > Jack, I was using a sprint car to show what caster effect was because it > is > the most extreme example. It is easier for people to understand the idea > of > what we are talking about by using such a simple car like a sprint car. I > never thought about running one for a land speed record. > > Big Ditch Doug > > > LSR! > > Put bicycle tires on a 700hp sprinter. and run it for a land speed > record.Then what? > > Thanks Jack From saltfever at comcast.net Sat Jun 13 23:58:03 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:58:03 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... Message-ID: <000001c9ecb5$1502a3a0$3f07eae0$@net> Well thanks, Skip. . . I can't find it :-) Is it an old thread or new one? On which forum? I searched the Landracing forum but there is no '*current* thread. H e l p . . . ---- Original Message ----- OK, I found it. Thanks. Skip From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jun 14 07:53:20 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 06:53:20 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <000001c9ecb5$1502a3a0$3f07eae0$@net> References: <000001c9ecb5$1502a3a0$3f07eae0$@net> Message-ID: <20090614135502.173C5187C94@autox.team.net> I found it on Landracing.com...clicked on the "forum" icon then "search" for "scrub". Good info there. Still only one recommendation and that is for "0" scrub. Left to my own devices I would put a little (maybe 1/4") positive. That, along with some caster (I can't help it Jack), should keep any slack out of the system and prevent wandering. Still would like some more numbers. Thank you Jack for yours. Skip At 10:58 PM 6/13/2009, Kirkwood wrote: >Well thanks, Skip. . . I can't find it :-) Is it an old thread or new >one? On which forum? I searched the Landracing forum but there is no >'*current* thread. H e l p . . . > > > >---- Original Message ----- > >OK, I found it. Thanks. Skip From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 14 09:47:39 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:47:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <4C6C46759986442BBA180F28D2F7EF05@ChrisHarrisPC> Message-ID: <1486277939.3764481244994459813.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I used that silly example as a means to demonstrate whatB can happen when using extreme geometry that helps turning,B is used for accurate straight line running. If you nee a little wheel "feel" 2deg positive or negative caster with no scrub might work (neg. might even help eliminate spins.) Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Harris" To: "Doug Odom" , NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 4:38:51 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Sprint cars are a good example Doug. Apparently some sprinters actually have king pin caster only on the front left to jack the right rear. The other king pin has little layback. Excellent info from this discussion. 1. Run castor for it's desirable self centering effect. 2. Set up your front wheel offset to give zero scrub radius to lessen rear wheel loading with steering input. Chris Harris.......................NZed From: "Doug Odom" > Jack, I was using a sprint car to show what caster effect was because it > is > the most extreme example. It is easier for people to understand the idea > of > what we are talking about by using such a simple car like a sprint car. I > never thought about running one for a land speed record. > > Big Ditch Doug > > > B LSR! > > B Put bicycle tires on a 700hp sprinter. and run it for a land speed > record.Then what? > > B Thanks Jack B From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 14 10:01:39 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:01:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <20090614135502.173C5187C94@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <1920995251.3766381244995299685.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Skip,B I know how you feel it's a hard old habit! On your inline liner It certainly won't diagonalize. Once I drove 788 with only one (spindle supported) wheel on the ground, it steered fine. 3deg caster,B 1' scrub, aprox. Jack B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Kirkwood" , "land-speed" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:53:20 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... I found it on Landracing.com...clicked on the "forum" icon then "search" for "scrub". Good info there. Still only one recommendation and that is for "0" scrub. Left to my own devices I would put a little (maybe 1/4") positive. That, along with some caster (I can't help it Jack), should keep any slack out of the system and prevent wandering. Still would like some more numbers. Thank you Jack for yours. Skip At 10:58 PM 6/13/2009, Kirkwood wrote: >Well thanks, Skip. . . B I can't find it :-) B B Is it an old thread or new >one? On which forum? B I searched the Landracing forum but there is no >'*current* thread. H e l p . . . > > > >---- Original Message ----- > >OK, I found it. Thanks. B B B B Skip Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ronggibson at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 10:15:01 2009 From: ronggibson at gmail.com (Ron Gibson) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:15:01 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <1920995251.3766381244995299685.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <20090614135502.173C5187C94@autox.team.net> <1920995251.3766381244995299685.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7fed79f90906140915m6ee863aes99ec6e28dbf3de77@mail.gmail.com> Jack Just so I can understand. If scrub radius is the turning paths of the steering wheels, can there be scrub with only one? I thought scrub was the tires fighting each others rolling path. On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:01 AM, wrote: > Skip,B I know how you feel it's a hard old habit! On your inline liner It > certainly won't diagonalize. Once I drove 788 with only one (spindle > supported) wheel on the ground, it steered fine. 3deg caster,B 1' scrub, > aprox. > > Jack From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 14 10:17:28 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:17:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <4A32FB59.3070202@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <137047409.3770211244996248249.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Damn Okie , you know all about caster(you explained about caster/scrub relevance!) muckraker! Good going! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 6:05:29 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 14 10:29:30 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:29:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <922292315.3772841244996970872.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Skip It's now time to make a model.B A simple rectangular tread using telescoping brass B tubing, allowing the axle to rotate. Pick your favorite kingpin incl.B with reversable offset wheels on sliding spindle axles. Scrub changes WB and exagerates caster. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "LSR" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:50:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't good either. Skip At 06:05 PM 6/12/2009, drmayf wrote: >Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and >things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the >pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will >probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... > >mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From dlodom at charter.net Sun Jun 14 10:40:00 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:40:00 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <1486277939.3764481244994459813.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <012b01c9ed0e$c3194cb0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Jack, I think we are all a little guilty of making blanket statements. We often forget the wide variety of cars that are all lumped into LSR. Wheelbases range from under 90" to over 300". Front ends from inline to over 50". Solid, straight axle, swing arm, independent, Etc...... Maybe we need to be more specific when we give an answer? Just a thought. Don't want to confuse ourselves anymore than normal. LOL Big Ditch Doug Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins I used that silly example as a means to demonstrate what can happen when using extreme geometry that helps turning, is used for accurate straight line running. If you nee a little wheel "feel" 2deg positive or negative caster with no scrub might work (neg. might even help eliminate spins.) Jack From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jun 14 10:48:41 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:48:41 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <1920995251.3766381244995299685.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emery ville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <20090614135502.173C5187C94@autox.team.net> <1920995251.3766381244995299685.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20090614164825.828E4187D64@autox.team.net> Jack, Did 788 pull, at all, towards or away from the "loaded" side? I have found that mine pulls a little away from the side with the most weight on the spindle.....as it should. So weight control or loading is very important.......never had this problem with airplanes......just vertical stabilizer angle of attack/incidence.........(-: Skip At 09:01 AM 6/14/2009, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: >Skip, I know how you feel it's a hard old habit! On your inline >liner It certainly won't diagonalize. Once I drove 788 with only one >(spindle supported) wheel on the ground, it steered fine. 3deg >caster, 1' scrub, aprox. > >Jack > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "Kirkwood" , "land-speed" > >Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:53:20 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... > >I found it on Landracing.com...clicked on the "forum" icon then >"search" for "scrub". Good info there. Still only one recommendation >and that is for "0" scrub. Left to my own devices I would put a >little (maybe 1/4") positive. That, along with some caster (I can't >help it Jack), should keep any slack out of the system and prevent >wandering. Still would like some more numbers. Thank you Jack for yours. > >Skip > > > > > >At 10:58 PM 6/13/2009, Kirkwood wrote: > >Well thanks, Skip. . . I can't find it :-) Is it an old thread or new > >one? On which forum? I searched the Landracing forum but there is no > >'*current* thread. H e l p . . . > > > > > > > >---- Original Message ----- > > > >OK, I found it. Thanks. Skip >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jun 14 10:53:50 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:53:50 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <922292315.3772841244996970872.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryv ille.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <20090613145019.4FA981879EA@autox.team.net> <922292315.3772841244996970872.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20090614165334.B1868187D79@autox.team.net> Jack, I have the model...it's the front part of the chassis on the weld fixture (completing the cockpit air conditioning installation). The effects are easy to see but the loads are not easy to quantify. Mayf is helping with that. We'll see what all this shows. Skip At 09:29 AM 6/14/2009, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: >Skip > >It's now time to make a model. A simple rectangular tread using >telescoping brass tubing, allowing the axle to rotate. Pick your >favorite kingpin incl. with reversable offset wheels on sliding spindle axles. > >Scrub changes WB and exagerates caster. > >Jack > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "LSR" >Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:50:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... > >Not done yet.......let's talk about "scrub". I personally know little >about the effects other than it may not be good and zero isn't good either. > >Skip > > > >At 06:05 PM 6/12/2009, drmayf wrote: > >Wow, aren't you guys happy that I asked the question on spins and > >things. We now have two polarized camps, lol. Caster, no Caster. the > >pits will be divided into two camps. For and agin.... And I will > >probably have to pit in Oklahoma, lol.... > > > >mayf >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 14 11:33:54 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:33:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <20090614164825.828E4187D64@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <1722416184.3785891245000834676.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Skip It was a 200mph run,B it did not pull, the treadB offset was about 2".The contact patch is what counts not the contraption supporting the wheel. An extreme offset tread bias, would eventually pull, kinda like caster/scrub does when turned.Its the diagonal loading.Again neg. caster might work against spin propensity(more in a rectangular tread layput). Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed" , "Kirkwood" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 9:48:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... Jack, Did 788 pull, at all, towards or away from the "loaded" side? B I have found that mine pulls a little away from the side with the most weight on the spindle.....as it should. So weight control or loading is very important.......never had this problem with airplanes......just vertical stabilizer angle of attack/incidence.........(-: Skip At 09:01 AM 6/14/2009, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: >Skip, I know how you feel it's a hard old habit! On your inline >liner It certainly won't diagonalize. Once I drove 788 with only one >(spindle supported) wheel on the ground, it steered fine. 3deg >caster, 1' scrub, aprox. > >Jack > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "Kirkwood" , "land-speed" > >Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:53:20 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... > >I found it on Landracing.com...clicked on the "forum" icon then >"search" for "scrub". Good info there. Still only one recommendation >and that is for "0" scrub. Left to my own devices I would put a >little (maybe 1/4") positive. That, along with some caster (I can't >help it Jack), should keep any slack out of the system and prevent >wandering. Still would like some more numbers. Thank you Jack for yours. > >Skip > > > > > >At 10:58 PM 6/13/2009, Kirkwood wrote: > >Well thanks, Skip. . . B I can't find it :-) B B Is it an old thread or new > >one? On which forum? B I searched the Landracing forum but there is no > >'*current* thread. H e l p . . . > > > > > > > >---- Original Message ----- > > > >OK, I found it. Thanks. B B B B Skip >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net B http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 14 11:40:36 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:40:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <012b01c9ed0e$c3194cb0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <304673119.3787231245001236856.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Doug B Its basic physics, it applies to all layouts with more or less effect, effect none the less.B Jack B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Odom" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 9:40:00 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins o;? Jack, I think we are all a little guilty of making blanket statements. We often forget the wide variety of cars that are all lumped into LSR. Wheelbases range from under 90" to over 300". Front ends from inline to over 50". Solid, straight axle, swing arm, independent, Etc...... Maybe we need to be more specific when we give an answer?B Just a thought. Don't want to confuse ourselves anymore than normal.B LOL Big Ditch Doug Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins I used that silly example as a means to demonstrate whatB can happen when using extreme geometry that helps turning,B is used for accurate straight line running. If you nee a little wheel "feel" 2deg positive or negative caster with no scrub might work (neg. might even help eliminate spins.) Jack From NT788 at comcast.net Sun Jun 14 11:51:53 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:51:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <7fed79f90906140915m6ee863aes99ec6e28dbf3de77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18122768.3789761245001913582.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Ron Great question.B I stopped here and refer e d to the model. It works against wheel rotation. So I would say yes.B What you said,B applies to ackerman. Thanks Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Gibson" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "Skip Higginbotham" , "land-speed" , "Kirkwood" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 9:15:01 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... Jack Just so I can understand. If scrub radius is the turning paths of the steering wheels, can there be scrub with only one? I thought scrub was the tires fighting each others rolling path. On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:01 AM, < NT788 at comcast.net > wrote: Skip,B I know how you feel it's a hard old habit! On your inline liner It certainly won't diagonalize. Once I drove 788 with only one (spindle supported) wheel on the ground, it steered fine. 3deg caster,B 1' scrub, aprox. Jack From saltrat at pahrump.com Sun Jun 14 11:57:16 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:57:16 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <1722416184.3785891245000834676.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emery ville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <20090614164825.828E4187D64@autox.team.net> <1722416184.3785891245000834676.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20090614175701.95622187D8C@autox.team.net> Jack, Thanks once more for the information. I am figuring how to measure loads with my "test" rig. Skip At 10:33 AM 6/14/2009, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: >Skip > >It was a 200mph run, it did not pull, the tread offset was about >2".The contact patch is what counts not the contraption supporting >the wheel. An extreme offset tread bias, would eventually pull, >kinda like caster/scrub does when turned.Its the diagonal >loading.Again neg. caster might work against spin propensity(more in >a rectangular tread layput). > >Jack > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: NT788 at comcast.net >Cc: "land-speed" , "Kirkwood" > >Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 9:48:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... > >Jack, >Did 788 pull, at all, towards or away from the "loaded" side? I have >found that mine pulls a little away from the side with the most >weight on the spindle.....as it should. So weight control or loading >is very important.......never had this problem with >airplanes......just vertical stabilizer angle of attack/incidence.........(-: >Skip From joyseydevil at comcast.net Mon Jun 15 00:17:00 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 02:17:00 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: Skip My understanding is before power steering was standard suspension engineers used a few inches of positive scrub to reduce steering effort for parking and now they let other things dictate scrub . The big 3 no doubt have tons of data on front end design testing like trading caster for trail . There is something called induced trail which I think is the rearward shift of the contact patch on low pressure tires . What's good for them isn't necessisarily good for us . I was up fighting NYC traffic picking up a Segway I bought on Ebay to make getting around at Speedweek easier . Going to add a seat of some kind . > At 02:37 PM 6/12/2009, John Burk wrote: >>Caster doesn't change rear tire loading if scrub is zero . > > > > > John, > > What is a typical factory scrub dimension for a 2WD steering system? And a > car racing at lakes and Bonneville? Different for long and short WB? Where > can the data be found? > > Skip From NT788 at comcast.net Mon Jun 15 02:13:26 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:13:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <486440028.3946561245053000957.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1851259526.3946761245053606807.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Negative scrub would make steering easier,I E kingpin intersection outside of contact patch, with positive caster. Some heavy cars did have neg caster, maybe in conjunction with pos scrub.I think my 69 Chrysler station wagon might have been a B scrubber it wore out tires before it got out of the garage. B Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burk" To: "LandSpeed List" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 11:17:00 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Skip My understanding is before power steering was standard suspension engineers used a few inches of positive scrub to reduce steering effort for parking and now they let other things dictate scrub . The big 3 no doubt have tons of data on front end design testing like trading caster for trail . There is something called induced trail which I think is the rearward shift of the contact patch on low pressure tires . What's good for them isn't necessisarily good for us . I was up fighting NYC traffic picking up a Segway I bought on Ebay to make getting around at Speedweek easier . Going to add a seat of some kind . > At 02:37 PM 6/12/2009, John Burk wrote: >>Caster doesn't change rear tire loading if scrub is zero . > > > > > John, > > What is a typical factory scrub dimension for a 2WD steering system? And a > car racing at lakes and Bonneville? Different for long and short WB? Where > can the data be found? > > Skip Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfever at comcast.net Mon Jun 15 02:34:17 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 01:34:17 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spins and Things... In-Reply-To: <7fed79f90906140629w51cec289y34eaab48b59faa3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c9ecb5$1502a3a0$3f07eae0$@net> <7fed79f90906140629w51cec289y34eaab48b59faa3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801c9ed94$131b78c0$39526a40$@net> Thanks Ron, and all others, that responded and pointed me to the correct thread. Scrub causes the tire to roll rather than squirm when it is turned. It is only useful on non-power steering street cars. It serves no benefit on a straight line, low friction, salt course and distorts the contact patch at extremely high loads. I don't see how any scrub is beneficial for LSR. At top end, when the aero load is the greatest on the front suspension, why would you want an offset force distorting both the rim and tire? To my thinking, all forces should be in a straight line directly through the middle of the tire, rim, and the contact patch. Although, I'm not quite in Jack's camp yet on caster :-) From: Ron Gibson Kirkwood It's in the "steering and suspension" forum. Second page, topic, "scrub radius" From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jun 15 10:25:45 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:25:45 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. Message-ID: <4A367609.6010504@mayfco.com> Well, here I go again. Same subject a different tangent, though. If I had data, lots of data, then I would try and do something with it in the form of a rule of thumb set of numbers. Might give a good starting place for some one wanting to build a new or modify an older car. If I had: 1) Wheel base 2) Front Track Eidth 3) Rear Track Width 4) Caster 5) Camber 6) Toe 7) Steering Angle Inclinaion 8) Nominal Vehicle Weight 9) Scrub Radius 10) Front Tire Type (ie real rubber tire or machined from aluminum or ?) 11) Top speed attained at any time with the above set up 12) Vehicle Weight 13) Comments about the handling qualities at speed. I would *NOT* need to know the car, the driver, the class, or any other personal data associated with the car. What I would like to do is build a data base of factors so that I can search to see if there are any common denominators. I might put the information into parametric form of something say like wheelbase / average track width or maybe a lot of other combinations. But mainly just to summarize the data into some meaningful information. But I would need lots of real data input. If anybody is game, shoot the info to me what ever you have. I'll make an excel file and work from that...or you can tell me to blow it out my..... well, you know where, lol.. mayf From neil at dbelltech.com Mon Jun 15 10:32:59 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:32:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. In-Reply-To: <4A367609.6010504@mayfco.com> References: <4A367609.6010504@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <30B1CD6FB9EE4919A46DC5E4B664DB94@DBTech> Mayf; In question #8 do you mean "dry weight"? Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:26 AM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. Well, here I go again. Same subject a different tangent, though. If I had data, lots of data, then I would try and do something with it in the form of a rule of thumb set of numbers. Might give a good starting place for some one wanting to build a new or modify an older car. If I had: 1) Wheel base 2) Front Track Eidth 3) Rear Track Width 4) Caster 5) Camber 6) Toe 7) Steering Angle Inclinaion 8) Nominal Vehicle Weight 9) Scrub Radius 10) Front Tire Type (ie real rubber tire or machined from aluminum or ?) 11) Top speed attained at any time with the above set up 12) Vehicle Weight 13) Comments about the handling qualities at speed. I would *NOT* need to know the car, the driver, the class, or any other personal data associated with the car. What I would like to do is build a data base of factors so that I can search to see if there are any common denominators. I might put the information into parametric form of something say like wheelbase / average track width or maybe a lot of other combinations. But mainly just to summarize the data into some meaningful information. But I would need lots of real data input. If anybody is game, shoot the info to me what ever you have. I'll make an excel file and work from that...or you can tell me to blow it out my..... well, you know where, lol.. mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From dlodom at charter.net Mon Jun 15 10:58:01 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:58:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. References: <4A367609.6010504@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <020f01c9edda$72ed7d70$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Mayf, I think you would want to know class for aero considerations. Also total race ready weight and if possible front to rear percent. I can give you 3. MS......GT.....S Big Ditch Doug Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:25 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. > Well, here I go again. Same subject a different tangent, though. If I > had data, lots of data, then I would try and do something with it in the > form of a rule of thumb set of numbers. Might give a good starting place > for some one wanting to build a new or modify an older car. > > If I had: > 1) Wheel base > 2) Front Track Eidth > 3) Rear Track Width > 4) Caster > 5) Camber > 6) Toe > 7) Steering Angle Inclinaion > 8) Nominal Vehicle Weight > 9) Scrub Radius > 10) Front Tire Type (ie real rubber tire or machined from aluminum or ?) > 11) Top speed attained at any time with the above set up > 12) Vehicle Weight > 13) Comments about the handling qualities at speed. > > I would *NOT* need to know the car, the driver, the class, or any other > personal data associated with the car. What I would like to do is build a > data base of factors so that I can search to see if there are any common > denominators. I might put the information into parametric form of > something say like wheelbase / average track width or maybe a lot of other > combinations. But mainly just to summarize the data into some meaningful > information. But I would need lots of real data input. If anybody is > game, shoot the info to me what ever you have. I'll make an excel file and > work from that...or you can tell me to blow it out my..... well, you know > where, lol.. > > mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as dlodom at charter.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jun 15 11:25:57 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:25:57 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. Message-ID: <4A368425.30502@mayfco.com> Doug Odom had a good idea on data... so I added a 12A) line. Thanks, Doug. Also clarified weight as that right after or during a run. Thanks Neil A. mayf *********************************************************************** Well, here I go again. Same subject a different tangent, though. If I had data, lots of data, then I would try and do something with it in the form of a rule of thumb set of numbers. Might give a good starting place for some one wanting to build a new or modify an older car. If I had: 1) Wheel base 2) Front Track Eidth 3) Rear Track Width 4) Caster 5) Camber 6) Toe 7) Steering Angle Inclinaion 8) Nominal Vehicle Weight 9) Scrub Radius 10) Front Tire Type (ie real rubber tire or machined from aluminum or ?) 11) Top speed attained at any time with the above set up 12) Vehicle Weight with driver and all fluids as if you just finished a run... 12A) Weight bias front to rear (ie what does the front of the car weigh and what does the rear weigh or a percentage number) 13) Comments about the handling qualities at speed. I would *NOT* need to know the car, the driver, the class, or any other personal data associated with the car. What I would like to do is build a data base of factors so that I can search to see if there are any common denominators. I might put the information into parametric form of something say like wheelbase / average track width or maybe a lot of other combinations. But mainly just to summarize the data into some meaningful information. But I would need lots of real data input. If anybody is game, shoot the info to me what ever you have. I'll make an excel file and work from that...or you can tell me to blow it out my..... well, you know where, lol.. mayf From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Mon Jun 15 12:37:34 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:37:34 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. In-Reply-To: <4A368425.30502@mayfco.com> References: <4A368425.30502@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Mayf You need a job, maybe the coffee shop will let you dry dishes or something. Go work on the car LOL. Tell the desert bunch I said hello. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. > Doug Odom had a good idea on data... so I added a 12A) line. Thanks, Doug. > Also clarified weight as that right after or during a run. Thanks Neil A. > > mayf > *********************************************************************** > Well, here I go again. Same subject a different tangent, though. If I > had data, lots of data, then I would try and do something with it in the > form of a rule of thumb set of numbers. Might give a good starting place > for some one wanting to build a new or modify an older car. > > If I had: > 1) Wheel base > 2) Front Track Eidth > 3) Rear Track Width > 4) Caster > 5) Camber > 6) Toe > 7) Steering Angle Inclinaion > 8) Nominal Vehicle Weight > 9) Scrub Radius > 10) Front Tire Type (ie real rubber tire or machined from aluminum or ?) > 11) Top speed attained at any time with the above set up > 12) Vehicle Weight with driver and all fluids as if you just finished a > run... > > 12A) Weight bias front to rear (ie what does the front of the car weigh > and what does the rear weigh or a percentage number) > > 13) Comments about the handling qualities at speed. > > I would *NOT* need to know the car, the driver, the class, or any > other personal data associated with the car. What I would like to do is > build a data base of factors so that I can search to see if there are > any common denominators. I might put the information into parametric > form of something say like wheelbase / average track width or maybe a > lot of other combinations. But mainly just to summarize the data into > some meaningful information. But I would need lots of real data input. > If anybody is game, shoot the info to me what ever you have. I'll make > an excel file and work from that...or you can tell me to blow it out > my..... well, you know where, lol.. > > mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ddahlgren at snet.net Mon Jun 15 11:38:42 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:38:42 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. In-Reply-To: <30B1CD6FB9EE4919A46DC5E4B664DB94@DBTech> References: <4A367609.6010504@mayfco.com> <30B1CD6FB9EE4919A46DC5E4B664DB94@DBTech> Message-ID: You left out 14. CG in X Y and Z 15. Weight distrubtion on each wheel. 16. Roll center front 17. Roll center rear 18. Drive wheel type and design IE wide rains goodyear slicks rolled or square sidewalls.. 14 thru 17 are needed to know how the others load 18... Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "'LSR'" Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. > Mayf; > > In question #8 do you mean "dry weight"? > > Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:26 AM > To: LSR > Subject: [Land-speed] Caster etc.. > > Well, here I go again. Same subject a different tangent, though. If I > had data, lots of data, then I would try and do something with it in the > form of a rule of thumb set of numbers. Might give a good starting place > for some one wanting to build a new or modify an older car. > > If I had: > 1) Wheel base > 2) Front Track Eidth > 3) Rear Track Width > 4) Caster > 5) Camber > 6) Toe > 7) Steering Angle Inclinaion > 8) Nominal Vehicle Weight > 9) Scrub Radius > 10) Front Tire Type (ie real rubber tire or machined from aluminum or ?) > 11) Top speed attained at any time with the above set up > 12) Vehicle Weight > 13) Comments about the handling qualities at speed. From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Jun 15 12:08:44 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:08:44 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A368E2C.9030908@wildblue.net> Back in the '40's and early '50's Luxury Cars used a small amount of negative caster (2-4B0), to decrease steering effort. It couldn't have a bad effect on handling because they drove like a fork lift with flat tires anyway. But they had a good "Boulevard Ride" on their two ply 8:50 - 14's. Bryan From jolylance at earthlink.net Mon Jun 15 17:50:11 2009 From: jolylance at earthlink.net (Joe Lance) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:50:11 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <4A368E2C.9030908@wildblue.net> Message-ID: And they kept that negative or zero caster even when they went to power steering---very little directional stability. Even the bicycle mfgs knew better. Lance -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Savage Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:09 PM To: LandSpeed List Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Back in the '40's and early '50's Luxury Cars used a small amount of negative caster (2-4B0), to decrease steering effort. It couldn't have a bad effect on handling because they drove like a fork lift with flat tires anyway. But they had a good "Boulevard Ride" on their two ply 8:50 - 14's. Bryan Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as jolylance at earthlink.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfever at comcast.net Mon Jun 15 23:44:23 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:44:23 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003901c9ee45$8162a6d0$8427f470$@net> Good stuff, Mayf. Since bump-steer can be a precursor to a spin; don't we want to know something about the front and rear axle style? Leaf springs, coil over's, Panard bar or Watts link, etc. I like Dave's suggestion but I doubt anybody knows the Z dimension for their CG. The old rule-of-thumb of using cam height is bogus for LSR. Roll centers are equally problematic for many. I'm not trying to add confusion or noise, Mayf. You will filter out what is important. Thanks for doing this. From 23.weldon at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 22:22:13 2009 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:22:13 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <4A30315A.3050403@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <007001c9ea4c$34585cb0$6501a8c0@S> Mayf -- Angular acceleration (about a yaw axis) is equal to the summation of the torques divided by the polar moment of inertia. A perfect car that exactly equal drag and lift on each side of a yaw axis through the mass centerline and equal driving and/or friction forces from each wheel will have all the torques balance out to zero; so it will stay in a straight line regardless of the traction of tires on salt. But let anything upset that torque balance such as different traction in the driving wheels or a difference between the aerodynamic forces on each side of the car (like from an offset driver position like a street roadster an inline engine header out one side of the car) or even a driver over correction in steering and now the traction of each of the 4 wheels on the salt is all that resists the acceleration torque the rotates the car into a yaw position. Once the yaw starts if the unbalance of aero forces (which depend on body side profile) causes enough increasing torque about the apparent yaw centerline and a rapid increase in angular acceleration the angular momentum will carry the car into a prolonged spin. Our experience is that this happens too fast for driver reactions to control the movement once it starts. I'm a mechanical engineer, but I don't pretend to have any deep understanding of this problem. The mathematics is scary to me; I think it would make a good thesis subject for a phD mechanical engineering candidate. But looking at the problem I see some issues that stand out. One is that we know little or nothing about the aerodynamics of cars once their angle attack leaves the zero degree (of yaw) position. Relative positions of center of gravity and crude estimates of center of pressure is the best we have at this point. Some wind tunnel test data for increasing yaw angles would be great; but I doubt anyone has ever done that. Another interesting issue is what happens to the actual yaw axis once any of the wheels break traction. My instinct tells me that once the front wheels break traction the yaw axis moves toward the rear wheels. This would make the "arrowhead" configuration of some streamliners and lakesters and modified roadsters less effective once a spin starts. Does this make any sense? What effect does a misalignment of front and rear axles do to this? I would think that if the body is 'crabbed" at a degree off angle to the direction of travel that would create a bias in one direction. How about cross winds? A 15mph cross wind is like the air coming at the car from 4 degrees off straight ahead. But how much does that affect a car because of ground effects? I think I may find the answer to that on in my bookcase. How about "torque lift" on the rear axle? Could the direction of prevailing winds at Bonneville produce a "grain" in the salt surface? Could left handedness or right handedness in drivers have an effect? Hmmmmm............ I'm not in good shape here. I took me 2 hours just to figure out some of the questions to ask.... Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins > Been thinking more about spins on the salt. Are there reasons, theory, > guesses, why a particular car would spin one way and consistently spin > that direction? Just curious as it is not my intention to do this on a > regular basis, lol... > Any thoughts that can tie the wheel base, track, weight, what the driver > had for breakfast, etc is appreciated. > mayf From mark at bradakis.com Tue Jun 16 02:07:12 2009 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:07:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Land-speed] List Issues Message-ID: <20090616080712.C7E112E07C@bradakis.com> I believe that the issue of AOL folks not getting Team.Net email has been resolved. It was a side effect of moving to a new ISP and getting a new block of addresses. On a side note, if you appreciate what you get from my efforts and have not donated in a while, you might consider clicking on http://www.team.net/donate.html mjb. From NT788 at comcast.net Tue Jun 16 07:18:38 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:18:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1474004234.4383021245158318890.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> And then? Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Lance" To: "Bryan Savage" , "LandSpeed List" Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:50:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins And they kept that negative or zero caster even when they went to power steering---very little directional stability. Even the bicycle mfgs knew better. B Lance B -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Savage Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:09 PM To: LandSpeed List Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins B Back in the '40's and early '50's Luxury Cars used a small amount of negative B caster (2-4B0), to decrease steering effort. It couldn't have a bad effect on handling because they drove like a fork lift with flat tires anyway. But they had a good "Boulevard Ride" on their two ply 8:50 - 14's. B Bryan Land-speed mailing list B You are subscribed as jolylance at earthlink.net B http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From dlodom at charter.net Tue Jun 16 08:41:31 2009 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:41:31 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins References: <1474004234.4383021245158318890.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <028001c9ee90$987d2750$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> You must also remember that those front end settings were for crowned roads and not the flat freeway type we have now. The good frontend men used to put a little caster stagger to the left into the car so it would go straight easier down those crowned highways. Even today a little stagger is used because most freeways are sloped to the right for water run off. Big Dtich Doug > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > > And they kept that negative or zero caster even when they went to power > steering---very little directional stability. Even the bicycle mfgs knew > better. > > B > > Lance > B > > Back in the '40's and early '50's Luxury Cars used a small amount of > > negative > > B caster (2-4B0), to decrease steering effort. It couldn't have a bad > > effect on handling > > because they drove like a fork lift with flat tires anyway. But they had > > a good > > "Boulevard Ride" on their two ply 8:50 - 14's. > > B > > Bryan > Land-speed mailing list From joyseydevil at comcast.net Tue Jun 16 13:27:53 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:27:53 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <057A514DD7594B3EB8A544571424E266@john> Jim Culbert crashed his modified roadster in 1957 so he built another one with front wheel drive . Being a pioneer he didn't know the scrub in the jeep hubs and wheels would be a problem . He got the record even though it didn't go very straight . It inspired the Summers to build the Polywog and the front drive was an exact copy including the scrub and the handling . By 1965 when they built the Goldenrod they had the scrub problem figured out . For some reason no successful front drive roadsters that I know of has been built even though it's of more of an advantage to a roadster than a streamliner . From joyseydevil at comcast.net Tue Jun 16 13:32:58 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:32:58 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <79AB2F3E24E94FECB84E2CEF2809C2A1@john> Is there a limit to how many parachute packs roadsters can have or where they can be mounted as a way to kill rear lift ? From jdincau at qnet.com Tue Jun 16 14:14:20 2009 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:14:20 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] front wheel drive roadster Message-ID: car number should have been 7700 the extreme freedom special, Gill Gillis driving From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Jun 16 20:10:54 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:10:54 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension Message-ID: <4A3850AE.8030600@mayfco.com> Seems the List Manager has flagged me for too long a post. So I will break it down into theree parts Par 1 Well, today I declared success on getting the suspension setup. Is it right? I do not know, but for sure it is what I have, lol. Lemme review the car first. It has a race strut front suspension with a lower A arm. Caster is approximately 14 degrees. Maybe more, maybe less, hard to measure. But it is the same on both sides. In the rear is the 4 link system with a diagonal locator link. The bottom link is parallel with teh frame and th etop link is out front of the car somewhere. Two adjustable shocks and coil over springs. Wheel base on the car is 90 inches (yeah, it is short). The rear has 6 degrees of freedom. Because I am of portly stature ( nah, fat is the real word), I found 275 pounds of iron in the shop and put that in the drivers seat as lard simulator. I made a couple of tools to help me with the front end as I though that was the right place to start since it has the fewest degrees of freedom to actually mess with. I made many many false starts because of a lack of experience and knowledge in doing this, but I wont address all the mistakes I made. Here is what I wound up with to the best I could measure: Front End Camber LF <<1 degree (<< means much less than) RF <<1 degree Caster approx 14 degrees positive Toe in <<<< 1/32 inch Steering wheel centered as measured by a level. Rear End Parallel with the front wheels to within a 1/32 inch. Thrust Angle is as close to ) degrees as I could make it <<<1 degree Off set of rear to front is approx 9/16 inches (9/32 per side) Any closer and I would have clearance issues. I used shade tree process to mount the race frame in the body so I am sure that is the error. see part 2 mayf From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Jun 16 20:12:00 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:12:00 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension Message-ID: <4A3850EF.5070608@mayfco.com> Part 2 Corner weighting. I use a simple weighing method, one sold by speedway to measure weights at the track. Simple but has a lot of built in errors. It is temperature sensitive, has only 20 lb graduations and you must use a shim to tell when the car is off the surface which really adds or subtracts a lot. And it dings the wheels so I had to fab up some more tools to alleviate that. At the end, I was doing changes in front and rear coilovers 1/8 turn at a time. I found sticky friction to be an issue. Evry heim, every shock has some friction in it and it will never come out exactly, at least in my experience. LF = 670 # RF = 660 # LR = 870 # RR = 860 # The diagonal weight is LF to RR 670 + 860 = 1530 pounds RF to LR 660 + 870 = 1530 pounds Front weight is 670 + 660 = 1330 pounds Rear weight is 870 + 860 = 1730 pounds see part 3 mayf From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Jun 16 20:13:08 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:13:08 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension Message-ID: <4A385134.4060102@mayfco.com> part 3 Total car weight with lard simulator = 3060 pounds Weight bias is 43% front 57% rear. To counter that I have added a big spoiler... The last item was how much the caster weight transferred.. While I could not measure the front wheels in the as turned condition, I did measure the rear corners when the fronts were turned from one lock to the other. Full left turn RR = 900 # for an increase of 30 # Full right turn LR = 900 # for an increase of 40 # Does that castigate caster? Should we ban caster forever? Nah, YMMV, lol. I did learn that short stiff cars are the very dickens to mess with. I learned tha tI know next to nothing about setting up a race car for the salt. It can be a frustrating experience. I hope like hell that I am done with it, lol.... I do wan tto say that it rolls realy really easy. A one hand push in the shop. And that not much force applied at all. Comments? Questions? mayf end of story... no part 4 From neil at dbelltech.com Tue Jun 16 20:43:00 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:43:00 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension In-Reply-To: <4A3850AE.8030600@mayfco.com> References: <4A3850AE.8030600@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <8B63A96902EA44ADBFC46138F4F66DCD@DBTech> Mayf; 14 degrees of caster sounds like way more than you really need but who knows? My car has a 98 inch wheelbase and is set up for 7 degrees of caster in the front end, with close to zero camber and <1/16" toe- in. My car is mid- engine so there is little similarity with your Sunbeam....and mine has yet to turn a wheel. :( Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 7:11 PM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension Seems the List Manager has flagged me for too long a post. So I will break it down into theree parts Par 1 Well, today I declared success on getting the suspension setup. Is it right? I do not know, but for sure it is what I have, lol. Lemme review the car first. It has a race strut front suspension with a lower A arm. Caster is approximately 14 degrees. Maybe more, maybe less, hard to measure. But it is the same on both sides. In the rear is the 4 link system with a diagonal locator link. The bottom link is parallel with teh frame and th etop link is out front of the car somewhere. Two adjustable shocks and coil over springs. Wheel base on the car is 90 inches (yeah, it is short). The rear has 6 degrees of freedom. Because I am of portly stature ( nah, fat is the real word), I found 275 pounds of iron in the shop and put that in the drivers seat as lard simulator. I made a couple of tools to help me with the front end as I though that was the right place to start since it has the fewest degrees of freedom to actually mess with. I made many many false starts because of a lack of experience and knowledge in doing this, but I wont address all the mistakes I made. Here is what I wound up with to the best I could measure: Front End Camber LF <<1 degree (<< means much less than) RF <<1 degree Caster approx 14 degrees positive Toe in <<<< 1/32 inch Steering wheel centered as measured by a level. Rear End Parallel with the front wheels to within a 1/32 inch. Thrust Angle is as close to ) degrees as I could make it <<<1 degree Off set of rear to front is approx 9/16 inches (9/32 per side) Any closer and I would have clearance issues. I used shade tree process to mount the race frame in the body so I am sure that is the error. see part 2 mayf From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Tue Jun 16 22:22:24 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:22:24 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension In-Reply-To: <4A385134.4060102@mayfco.com> References: <4A385134.4060102@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4A386F80.6090308@wildblue.net> Great job Mayf. Real data. Actual measurements. Amazing. No hope, wish or maybe, just fact!! These 3 notes will live on in my permanent _Bonneville Secrets_ file. Thanks for spending a lot of time educating me. Bryan drmayf wrote: > part 3 > > Total car weight with lard simulator = 3060 pounds > Weight bias is 43% front 57% rear. To counter that I have added a big > spoiler... > > The last item was how much the caster weight transferred.. While I > could not measure the front wheels in the as turned condition, I did > measure the rear corners when the fronts were turned from one lock to > the other. > > Full left turn RR = 900 # for an increase of 30 # > Full right turn LR = 900 # for an increase of 40 # > > Does that castigate caster? Should we ban caster forever? Nah, YMMV, lol. > > I did learn that short stiff cars are the very dickens to mess with. > I learned tha tI know next to nothing about setting up a race car for > the salt. It can be a frustrating experience. I hope like hell that I > am done with it, lol.... > > I do wan tto say that it rolls realy really easy. A one hand push in > the shop. And that not much force applied at all. > > Comments? Questions? > > mayf > > end of story... > > no part 4 > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as b.a.savage at wildblue.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jun 17 12:46:02 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:46:02 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <79AB2F3E24E94FECB84E2CEF2809C2A1@john> References: <79AB2F3E24E94FECB84E2CEF2809C2A1@john> Message-ID: <4A3939EA.606@mayfco.com> John, now that's thinking out of the box, lol.... Lets see... 4 ft wide, chute pack is about 10 inches so maybe 4 wide by 6 deep, or 24 of them suckers... Yeah, that might take the lift off the rear end.. mayf John Burk wrote: > Is there a limit to how many parachute packs roadsters can have or > where they can be mounted as a way to kill rear lift ? > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jun 17 12:57:12 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:57:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Caster, etc. Message-ID: <4A393C88.207@mayfco.com> A day or several ago, I mentioned starting a project to see if there was data out there that might let us compare our different cars in terms of successful suspensions. It had about a dozen basic factors to be looked at and a couple of folk suggested refinement of the factor list by adding to or clarifying some of them. Well, lemme tell ya, this has been a real barn burner! So far I have two question, one offer of data for three cars, one additional set of factors to be added, and one actual set of data. So with a dat abase of 1, I am going to* terminate* this exercise. There is simply no interest. So please do not send me data. I will just put it in the bit bucket. mayf From saltfever at comcast.net Wed Jun 17 13:37:10 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:37:10 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension Message-ID: <001201c9ef83$02594990$070bdcb0$@net> Mayf: Appreciated more than you will ever know, THANX :-) About a week ago there was a great explanation of ROLL CENTERS. I checked the archives here and can't find it. Was it here on this list or on the Landracing forum? Anybody remember who posted it? TIA. From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Wed Jun 17 13:39:47 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:39:47 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <4A3939EA.606@mayfco.com> References: <79AB2F3E24E94FECB84E2CEF2809C2A1@john> <4A3939EA.606@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4A394683.9000704@wildblue.net> Well let's see. Mount the chutes up high to get the chute in the air flow, to improve deployment. Make it thin and wide to reduce drag and expose more chute to air flow for improved deployment. Place chute in a 2" high, 6" wide, 30-36 " long bag for reliable deployment. All of the above for _safety. _I think Bob (S) would have fun with this as well as some excellent ideas. Bryan _ _ drmayf wrote: > John, now that's thinking out of the box, lol.... Lets see... 4 ft > wide, chute pack is about 10 inches so maybe 4 wide by 6 deep, or 24 > of them suckers... Yeah, that might take the lift off the rear end.. > > mayf > John Burk wrote: > >> Is there a limit to how many parachute packs roadsters can have or >> where they can be mounted as a way to kill rear lift ? >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Land-speed mailing list >> >> You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as b.a.savage at wildblue.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfever at comcast.net Wed Jun 17 13:51:10 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:51:10 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension Message-ID: <001701c9ef84$f704d3a0$e50e7ae0$@net> If the car is starting a yaw to the right the driver will naturally turn to the left. Using Mayf's numbers the right rear is loaded more than the left due to caster effect. Is this a bad thing? The upstream tire is loaded greater than the downstream tire which would be a tendency to *not* roll the car. If the downstream tire had a greater load applied wouldn't it want to dig in and tend to roll the car? Is caster is a good thing? I don't know, but very interested your responses ---------------------------------- . . . Full left turn RR = 900 # for an increase of 30 # . . . Full right turn LR = 900 # for an increase of 40 # --------------------------------- Mayf: You say offset is equal on both sides. Do you mean the rear wheel base is 9/16 wider than the front but perfectly centered in the car? . . . ''Off set of rear to front is approx 9/16 inches (9/32 per side) Any closer and I would have clearance issues. I used shade tree process to mount the race frame in the body so I am sure that is the error.'' From ed at vetteracing.com Wed Jun 17 14:38:07 2009 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:38:07 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: Who says the chute packs have to actually have a chute in them? Heck, that's a convenient place to store the week's dirty tee shirts! Ed V -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Savage [mailto:b.a.savage at wildblue.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:39 PM To: drmayf at mayfco.com Cc: 'LandSpeed List' Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins Well let's see. Mount the chutes up high to get the chute in the air flow, to improve deployment. Make it thin and wide to reduce drag and expose more chute to air flow for improved deployment. Place chute in a 2" high, 6" wide, 30-36 " long bag for reliable deployment. All of the above for _safety. _I think Bob (S) would have fun with this as well as some excellent ideas. Bryan _ _ drmayf wrote: > John, now that's thinking out of the box, lol.... Lets see... 4 ft > wide, chute pack is about 10 inches so maybe 4 wide by 6 deep, or 24 > of them suckers... Yeah, that might take the lift off the rear end.. > > mayf > John Burk wrote: > >> Is there a limit to how many parachute packs roadsters can have or >> where they can be mounted as a way to kill rear lift ? >> From ed at vetteracing.com Wed Jun 17 14:42:07 2009 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:42:07 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension Message-ID: It has been said already that all cars are different.... My Corvette tends to hang the right rear out if it gets loose. At El Mirage it's quick, at Bonneville its slow and steady. Simply backing off the throttle a bit straightens it up with no steering inputs (at least most of the time.....) Ed -----Original Message----- From: Kirkwood [mailto:saltfever at comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:51 PM To: 'land-speed' Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension If the car is starting a yaw to the right the driver will naturally turn to the left. Using Mayf's numbers the right rear is loaded more than the left due to caster effect. Is this a bad thing? The upstream tire is loaded greater than the downstream tire which would be a tendency to *not* roll the car. If the downstream tire had a greater load applied wouldn't it want to dig in and tend to roll the car? Is caster is a good thing? I don't know, but very interested your responses ---------------------------------- . . . Full left turn RR = 900 # for an increase of 30 # . . . Full right turn LR = 900 # for an increase of 40 # --------------------------------- Mayf: You say offset is equal on both sides. Do you mean the rear wheel base is 9/16 wider than the front but perfectly centered in the car? . . . ''Off set of rear to front is approx 9/16 inches (9/32 per side) Any closer and I would have clearance issues. I used shade tree process to mount the race frame in the body so I am sure that is the error.'' From gmc6power at earthlink.net Wed Jun 17 14:45:11 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:45:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <23024949.1245271512051.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Is there a limit to how many parachute packs roadsters can have or >> where they can be mounted as a way to kill rear lift ? Gary Brauer roadster is legal with his 2 chutes and seems to work well. As I remember the 2 W's parachute was deemed illegal after a few years of running and was redesigned. Just a thought, Why run a Ford???????????......JD From saltfever at comcast.net Wed Jun 17 15:09:21 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:09:21 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Sunbeam Suspension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002001c9ef8f$e306b840$a91428c0$@net> Certainly agree, Ed. IRS is quite different and not in many LSR cars. Just another variable to try and understand . . .if it is even possible :-) From: Ed Van Scoy It has been said already that all cars are different.... My Corvette tends to hang the right rear out if it gets loose. At El Mirage it's quick, at Bonneville its slow and steady. Simply backing off the throttle a bit straightens it up with no steering inputs (at least most of the time.....) Ed From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 21:17:50 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <347250.23772.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If the multiple or unconventional chute pack is deemed to offer some streamlining advantage the roadster owner will be asked to rethink the design, 4.CC, paragraph one. If a V4F street roadster has three packs on the rear deck it would seem that they are there for some reason rather than "safety". DW --- On Wed, 6/17/09, James Tone wrote: From: James Tone Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins To: "John Burk" Cc: "LandSpeed List" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 1:45 PM >> Is there a limit to how many parachute packs roadsters can have or >> where they can be mounted as a way to kill rear lift ? Gary Brauer roadster is legal with his 2 chutes and seems to work well. As I remember the 2 W's parachute was deemed illegal after a few years of running and was redesigned. Just a thought, Why run a Ford???????????......JD Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ronggibson at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 07:25:31 2009 From: ronggibson at gmail.com (Ron Gibson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:25:31 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <347250.23772.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <347250.23772.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7fed79f90906180625i56ccf1adk44a4b16d9412f78f@mail.gmail.com> About 18 or 20 years ago didn't the Benham-Piner modified roadster loose a record due to chutes? Don't remember if it was placement, number, shape or whatever. But then again I could be comletely wrong and my memory whacko. Ron On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:17 PM, dan warner wrote: > If the multiple or unconventional chute pack is deemed to offer some > streamlining advantage the roadster owner will be asked to rethink the > design, > 4.CC, paragraph one. > > If a V4F street roadster has three packs on the rear deck it would seem > that > they are there for some reason rather than "safety". > > DW From fosterap at flash.net Thu Jun 18 08:07:10 2009 From: fosterap at flash.net (JERRY FOSTER) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <421585.23713.qm@web80608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I remember a few years ago, the Mike Cook roadster had two side by side chutes, and they "framed" them in with a box which extended about 10" out from the trunk. The top of this box, in effect, created a wing on the deck, which is not legal on a roadster. They did this for a year or two, and I guess somebody made them remove it. Jerry in Dallas --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Ron Gibson wrote: From: Ron Gibson Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins To: "dan warner" Cc: "LandSpeed List" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 8:25 AM About 18 or 20 years ago didn't the Benham-Piner modified roadster loose a record due to chutes? Don't remember if it was placement, number, shape or whatever. But then again I could be comletely wrong and my memory whacko. Ron On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:17 PM, dan warner wrote: > If the multiple or unconventional chute pack is deemed to offer some > streamlining advantage the roadster owner will be asked to rethink the > design, > 4.CC, paragraph one. > > If a V4F street roadster has three packs on the rear deck it would seem > that > they are there for some reason rather than "safety". > > DW From gmc6power at earthlink.net Thu Jun 18 08:37:24 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins Message-ID: <24062363.1245335844187.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Thu Jun 18 11:02:34 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:02:34 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Car Spins In-Reply-To: <24062363.1245335844187.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24062363.1245335844187.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: James, what happened to the subject???? Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Tone" To: "Ron Gibson" ; "dan warner" Cc: "LandSpeed List" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Car Spins > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From gary at hensleys.us Thu Jun 18 12:32:37 2009 From: gary at hensleys.us (Gary C. Hensley) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:32:37 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Jon Wennerburg Contact Info Message-ID: <200906181832.n5IIWbUO001333@omr5.networksolutionsemail.com> I tried emailing you but your info has changed? Send me current info, I have an invite for you. Gary C Hensley Fix What You Know is Wrong First [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of image002.png] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image003.jpg] From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Thu Jun 18 13:00:16 2009 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:00:16 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: OFFICIAL LAND SPEED RACING NO NAMERS UNOFFICIAL CLUB MEETING Message-ID: <001201c9f047$05d047d0$6401a8c0@Rick> To Expand on this invitation, anyone who finds themselves in the Michigan area please consider yourself invited. OR any of you rich left coast guys who want to fly in for a good party............. just kidding, just kidding. One last afternoon of kicking back before the final push for SpeedWeek. I'm sorry I won't be there this year, but every penny I can scrape up needs to go into the car. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Byrnes To: Steve Christophersen ; Lou Williams ; ksperry1 at comcast.net ; John Staiger ; Helen Ectors ; Gary Hensley ; doughman at wowway.com ; Chip Theisen ; Brian Theisen ; Bregt (work) ; bobsirna at speakeasy.net ; Bob Williams ; Bill Quinlan ; admatson at aol.com ; tdoll at comcast.net ; sminneker at aol.com ; jimo at badforgood.com ; fcroadrcr at aol.com ; rpitlock at visteon.com ; ken at hardmanracing.com ; jim2iron at comcast.net ; yagzil at sympatico.ca ; dsherman12 at cs.com ; don at arrowracing.com ; darrin at hosenow.com ; charlesfider at yahoo.com ; foxriverkid at earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:22 PM Subject: OFFICIAL LAND SPEED RACING NO NAMERS UNOFFICIAL CLUB MEETING I am hosting a MICHIGAN LSR NO NAMERS CLUB ON the afternoon of SATURDAY, the 11th of JULY, at my shop in Dearborn. 2 PM till ???? Please plan on attending. I know this date is a little close to Speed Week for those of you into your annual thrash, but please stop by and share a little.... 24720 Woodcroft Dr Dearborn 48124 Phone 313 3198544 (cell) Please RSVP so I know how much beer (and other stuff) to have on hand. Sandwiches of some kind will be provided. (I haven't planned that far ahead yet.) ALSO, please forward to any hard core LSR Folks that I may have inadvertently left off my list. ALSO please bring folks that have an interest in what we do. Looking forward to a pleasant afternoon. Rick Which one is the dummy? [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Which one is the dummy.jpg] From wester6935 at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 13:01:50 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:01:50 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the pits by a thousand feet. Wes On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > > http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969 > > was it a fia record? or just an el mirage record? was the german > record an fia record? or just a german record? > > dale From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Thu Jun 18 14:28:59 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:28:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jesse was given a certificate of speed for his 199 run. It does not say record anywhere on the cert. Only the fact he ran 199 mph. Oh, don't rule out him running at speed week, it could happen. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" To: "Dale Pulju" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine > And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to > create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their > streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... > they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the > sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I > seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the > hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the > pits by a thousand feet. > > Wes > > On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > >> >> http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969 >> >> was it a fia record? or just an el mirage record? was the german >> record an fia record? or just a german record? >> >> dale > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jun 18 13:53:21 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:53:21 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A3A9B31.4040003@mayfco.com> This could get interesting. Lemme see, rule 2.B says hydrogen is one of the approved fuels to be used in fuel class. And since the engine used was a big block chevy and was internal combustion then it looks like JJ would run against Tom Burklands 417 record. Or does/will a special hydrogen fuel class open up just for that? The 999 car that Rick drove for Ford the the Buckeye liner where both fueled by a hydrox mix, ie hydrogen and oxygen , to make electricity via fuel cells to run the electric motors. So in effect they were just carrying the charging system with them, lol. JJ's car was a hydrogen burner in the combustion chamber. Completely different mode of operation and actually slightly less dangerous. mayf speedtimer at beyondbb.com wrote: > Jesse was given a certificate of speed for his 199 run. It does not > say record anywhere on the cert. Only the fact he ran 199 mph. Oh, > don't rule out him running at speed week, it could happen. > Glen > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" > > To: "Dale Pulju" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" > > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed > record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine > > >> And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to >> create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their >> streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... >> they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the >> sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I >> seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the >> hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the >> pits by a thousand feet. >> >> Wes >> >> On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: >> >>> >>> http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969 >>> >>> was it a fia record? or just an el mirage record? was the german >>> record an fia record? or just a german record? >>> >>> dale >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Land-speed mailing list >> >> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 21:32:02 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine Message-ID: <754916.41786.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Why couldn't the Jesse james car run an SCTA/BNI/USFRA event? It meets current safety regs and section 2.B of the 2009 rulebook piuts the car in a fuel class. DW --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Wester Potter wrote: From: Wester Potter Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine To: "Dale Pulju" , "LAND SPEED LIST" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:01 PM And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the pits by a thousand feet. Wes On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > > http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969 > > was it a fia record? or just an el mirage record? was the german > record an fia record? or just a german record? > > dale Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 21:36:42 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:36:42 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine In-Reply-To: <754916.41786.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <754916.41786.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6732A004-5DE7-4793-A60B-CA4AC59E5354@comcast.net> Apparently it could. The private timing was just for the TV show. Mayf says the hydrogen system it uses is safer than the Ballard technology used by Ford and Ohio State. Wes On Jun 18, 2009, at 9:32 PM, dan warner wrote: > Why couldn't the Jesse james car run an SCTA/BNI/USFRA event? It > meets current safety regs and section 2.B of the 2009 rulebook piuts > the car in a fuel class. > > DW > > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Wester Potter wrote: > > From: Wester Potter > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed > record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine > To: "Dale Pulju" , "LAND SPEED LIST" > > Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:01 PM > > And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to > create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their > streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... > they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the > sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I > seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the > hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the > pits by a thousand feet. > > Wes > > On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > > > > > http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969 > > > > was it a fia record? or just an el mirage record? was the german > > record an fia record? or just a german record? > > > > dale > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 21:49:55 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine Message-ID: <980650.78348.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I think they wanted the freedom to do things that supported the production crews needs. That may have caused some hate and dissent in line at El Mirage. --- On Thu, 6/18/09, dan warner wrote: From: dan warner Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine To: "Dale Pulju" , "LAND SPEED LIST" , "Wester Potter" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 8:32 PM Why couldn't the Jesse james car run an SCTA/BNI/USFRA event? It meets current safety regs and section 2.B of the 2009 rulebook piuts the car in a fuel class. DW --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Wester Potter wrote: From: Wester Potter Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine To: "Dale Pulju" , "LAND SPEED LIST" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:01 PM And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the pits by a thousand feet. Wes On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > > http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969 > > was it a fia record? or just an el mirage record? was the german > record an fia record? or just a german record? > > dale Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Thu Jun 18 23:07:33 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:07:33 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine In-Reply-To: <754916.41786.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <754916.41786.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A3B1D15.7040706@mayfco.com> Yep, that was what I surmised as well. AA Fuel Streamliner. Gotta go really fast though.. mayf dan warner wrote: >Why couldn't the Jesse james car run an SCTA/BNI/USFRA event? It meets current >safety regs and section 2.B of the 2009 rulebook piuts the car in a fuel >class. > >DW > >--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Wester Potter wrote: > > >From: Wester Potter >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back >to America: AutoWeek Magazine >To: "Dale Pulju" , "LAND SPEED LIST" > >Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:01 PM > > >And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to >create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their >streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... >they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the >sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I >seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the >hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the >pits by a thousand feet. > >Wes > >On Jun 18, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > > > >>http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969 >> >>was it a fia record? or just an el mirage record? was the german >>record an fia record? or just a german record? >> >>dale >> >> >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfever at comcast.net Fri Jun 19 01:14:24 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:14:24 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed Message-ID: <001a01c9f0ad$935e5090$ba1af1b0$@net> Isn't that the original Bill Burke 'Pumpkin Seed' car? It sure looks like it. Bill went something like 203 mph with a 6 cylinder Ford Falcon motor in 1961! So 48 years later a TV personality stuffs in a 572 inch big block running on H2 and goes 4-5 mph SLOWER! I enjoy all things mechanical and appreciate the craftsman ship displayed on some of the shows. But, P l e a s e, why lionize a useless hollywood spectacle? Yes, hollywood is spelled lower case! Flame away . . . From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Fri Jun 19 01:23:52 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:23:52 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine In-Reply-To: <4A3A9B31.4040003@mayfco.com> References: <4A3A9B31.4040003@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4A3B3D08.6030104@wildblue.net> " SCTA even required the setup that created the hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the pits by a thousand feet." 1,000 FEET AWAY FROM EVERYTHING???? That is absolutely hilarious. I wish I had been there with my video camera. Having Robin Williams talk about that rule would be perfect. Still laughing, Bryan drmayf wrote: > This could get interesting. Lemme see, rule 2.B says hydrogen is one > of the approved fuels to be used in fuel class. And since the engine > used was a big block chevy and was internal combustion then it looks > like JJ would run against Tom Burklands 417 record. Or does/will a > special hydrogen fuel class open up just for that? The 999 car that > Rick drove for Ford the the Buckeye liner where both fueled by a > hydrox mix, ie hydrogen and oxygen , to make electricity via fuel > cells to run the electric motors. So in effect they were just > carrying the charging system with them, lol. JJ's car was a hydrogen > burner in the combustion chamber. Completely different mode of > operation and actually slightly less dangerous. > > mayf > speedtimer at beyondbb.com wrote: > >> Jesse was given a certificate of speed for his 199 run. It does not >> say record anywhere on the cert. Only the fact he ran 199 mph. Oh, >> don't rule out him running at speed week, it could happen. >> Glen >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" >> >> To: "Dale Pulju" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed >> record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine >> >> >>> And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to >>> create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their >>> streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... >>> they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the >>> sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I >>> seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the >>> hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the >>> pits by a thousand feet. >>> >>> Wes From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Fri Jun 19 01:28:49 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:28:49 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed In-Reply-To: <001a01c9f0ad$935e5090$ba1af1b0$@net> References: <001a01c9f0ad$935e5090$ba1af1b0$@net> Message-ID: <4A3B3E31.5090704@wildblue.net> Now are you telling me that the only reason that was done was to sell Tampax and Viagra? My oh my, BS Kirkwood wrote: > Isn't that the original Bill Burke 'Pumpkin Seed' car? It sure looks like > it. Bill went something like 203 mph with a 6 cylinder Ford Falcon motor in > 1961! So 48 years later a TV personality stuffs in a 572 inch big block > running on H2 and goes 4-5 mph SLOWER! > > > > I enjoy all things mechanical and appreciate the craftsman ship displayed on > some of the shows. But, P l e a s e, why lionize a useless hollywood > spectacle? Yes, hollywood is spelled lower case! Flame away . . . > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as b.a.savage at wildblue.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From kturk at adelphia.net Fri Jun 19 02:07:20 2009 From: kturk at adelphia.net (Keith Turk) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:07:20 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed References: <001a01c9f0ad$935e5090$ba1af1b0$@net> <4A3B3E31.5090704@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <2C6FCA4C4B6742FC825F970BC4DEA90C@keithhrijwmm4p> Kurt Urban built this motor a while back and has been supporting while out there with Mike Cook... it's the real deal... you can breath the exhaust while washing your hands in it... and it makes 780hp... pretty fun stuff... Kurt worked on the Berkeley and has been a good freind... glad this worked out for him... K From wester6935 at comcast.net Fri Jun 19 06:58:44 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:58:44 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen Racer | Autopia | Wired.com In-Reply-To: <9FFC7493584C473DA021C2924EF284EB@userPC> References: <9FFC7493584C473DA021C2924EF284EB@userPC> Message-ID: <4375C85C-657C-4E99-B4EE-05B6D4989694@comcast.net> Bad timing for the Bonneville Speedweek crew. On August 9th they will likely all be on the salt. Set your Tivo to see this episode. Wes On Jun 19, 2009, at 6:53 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > > http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/jesse-james/ > > better info > dale From ddahlgren at snet.net Fri Jun 19 07:15:22 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:15:22 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen Racer | Autopia | Wired.com In-Reply-To: <4375C85C-657C-4E99-B4EE-05B6D4989694@comcast.net> References: <9FFC7493584C473DA021C2924EF284EB@userPC> <4375C85C-657C-4E99-B4EE-05B6D4989694@comcast.net> Message-ID: <74722EA909D34E568A064E3EC931FAC4@DaveSatellite> How can you go that slow with 780 hp even worse how silly is to have a turbo 572 that only makes 780 hp?? Cars are so clean now that in metro areas they are actually putting out less than they take in for polution in essence scrubbing the dirt out of the air. The measuing system is a joke in using parts per million to measure the polution as well milligrams per mile makes much more sense as the effecient small engine cars will win and the Hummers etc. will be shown for what they really are.. oh well rant over... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" To: "Dale Pulju" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen Racer | Autopia | Wired.com > Bad timing for the Bonneville Speedweek crew. On August 9th they will > likely all be on the salt. > Set your Tivo to see this episode. > > Wes > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 6:53 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > >> >> http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/jesse-james/ >> >> better info >> dale From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Fri Jun 19 07:16:07 2009 From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:16:07 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen Racer | Autopia | Wired.com In-Reply-To: <4375C85C-657C-4E99-B4EE-05B6D4989694@comcast.net> References: <9FFC7493584C473DA021C2924EF284EB@userPC> <4375C85C-657C-4E99-B4EE-05B6D4989694@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20C1C31DD@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> I do believe this statement on the site is in error. The speed was confirmed by the Southern California Timing Association, a sanctioning body for land speed racing . Mike Meierle #847 F/BMMP SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA ECTA Record Holder -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wester Potter Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:59 AM To: Dale Pulju; LAND SPEED LIST Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen Racer | Autopia | Wired.com Bad timing for the Bonneville Speedweek crew. On August 9th they will likely all be on the salt. Set your Tivo to see this episode. Wes On Jun 19, 2009, at 6:53 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > > http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/jesse-james/ > > better info > dale _______________________________________________ From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Fri Jun 19 08:31:34 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:31:34 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen Racer | Autopia | Wired.com In-Reply-To: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20C1C31DD@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> References: <9FFC7493584C473DA021C2924EF284EB@userPC><4375C85C-657C-4E99-B4EE-05B6D4989694@comcast.net> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20C1C31DD@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> Message-ID: <8C30A0832826430EB8AE51926FE12A3D@GlenPC> SCTA did not time the car, It was done under contract by Chronologic Timing and Land Speed Events / Cook motor sports. SCTA had no part in the private time event. Chronologic is contracted by SCTA and BNI for their timing equipment. They also do other private timing and all equipment is certified through a standards lab. Just setting the facts straight. BTW they only got a certificate of speed not any kind of record cert. I say he did a good job with little seat time and at the lake bed that was soft. The car has a lot more it it. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEIERLE Mike" To: "Wester Potter" ; "Dale Pulju" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen Racer | Autopia | Wired.com >I do believe this statement on the site is in error. > > The speed was confirmed by the Southern California Timing Association, a > sanctioning body for land speed racing . > > Mike Meierle > #847 F/BMMP > SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA > ECTA Record Holder > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wester Potter > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:59 AM > To: Dale Pulju; LAND SPEED LIST > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Inside Jesse James' Record-Setting Hydrogen > Racer | Autopia | Wired.com > > Bad timing for the Bonneville Speedweek crew. On August 9th they will > likely all be on the salt. > Set your Tivo to see this episode. > > Wes > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 6:53 AM, Dale Pulju wrote: > >> >> http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/jesse-james/ >> >> better info >> dale > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Jun 19 07:40:16 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:40:16 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine In-Reply-To: <4A3B3D08.6030104@wildblue.net> References: <4A3A9B31.4040003@mayfco.com> <4A3B3D08.6030104@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <4A3B9540.1020604@mayfco.com> Actually, no, they were inside the pits. Back left corner though. I went over several times and took a good look at the both the Ford car and the bullet Which was next to them. It was actually a nioce place for them as between the two entries they took up a lot of space. mayf Bryan Savage wrote: > " SCTA even required the setup that created the > hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the > pits by a thousand feet." > > > > 1,000 FEET AWAY FROM EVERYTHING???? > > That is absolutely hilarious. > > I wish I had been there with my video camera. > > Having Robin Williams talk about that rule would be perfect. > > Still laughing, > Bryan > > > > > drmayf wrote: > >> This could get interesting. Lemme see, rule 2.B says hydrogen is one >> of the approved fuels to be used in fuel class. And since the engine >> used was a big block chevy and was internal combustion then it looks >> like JJ would run against Tom Burklands 417 record. Or does/will a >> special hydrogen fuel class open up just for that? The 999 car that >> Rick drove for Ford the the Buckeye liner where both fueled by a >> hydrox mix, ie hydrogen and oxygen , to make electricity via fuel >> cells to run the electric motors. So in effect they were just >> carrying the charging system with them, lol. JJ's car was a hydrogen >> burner in the combustion chamber. Completely different mode of >> operation and actually slightly less dangerous. >> >> mayf >> speedtimer at beyondbb.com wrote: >> >>> Jesse was given a certificate of speed for his 199 run. It does not >>> say record anywhere on the cert. Only the fact he ran 199 mph. Oh, >>> don't rule out him running at speed week, it could happen. >>> Glen >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wester Potter" >>> >>> To: "Dale Pulju" ; "LAND SPEED LIST" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed >>> record back to America: AutoWeek Magazine >>> >>> >>>> And Rick Byrnes went 207 with the Ford electric car using hydrogen to >>>> create the electricity. Ohio State has gone over 270 with their >>>> streamliner using the same Ballard technology as Ford did. Oh yes ... >>>> they were timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Would any of the >>>> sponsoring organizations allow Jesse's liner to run at their event? I >>>> seriously doubt it. SCTA even required the setup that created the >>>> hydrogen for the Ford attempt to stay away from the extreme end of the >>>> pits by a thousand feet. >>>> >>>> Wes From dwarner230 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 09:02:36 2009 From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed Message-ID: <462739.99242.qm@web52508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Bill Burke's car is now run by Jim Travis. It is currently sitting just inside the front door of the NHRA Museum. DW --- On Fri, 6/19/09, Kirkwood wrote: From: Kirkwood Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James brings hydrogen land-speed To: "land-speed" Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 12:14 AM Isn't that the original Bill Burke 'Pumpkin Seed' car? It sure looks like it. Bill went something like 203 mph with a 6 cylinder Ford Falcon motor in 1961! So 48 years later a TV personality stuffs in a 572 inch big block running on H2 and goes 4-5 mph SLOWER! I enjoy all things mechanical and appreciate the craftsman ship displayed on some of the shows. But, P l e a s e, why lionize a useless hollywood spectacle? Yes, hollywood is spelled lower case! Flame away . . . Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net Fri Jun 19 10:34:17 2009 From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:34:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Flanges Message-ID: <1599128922.4583931245429257073.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I see in the latest HRM somebody's offering short lengths of aluminum tube with a nice flanged lip on one end for boosted intake plumbing. At $30 + a pop they're a bit "spendy" as Mayf would say. I have good quality hose on my deal and not alot of space between tubes. The hose has survived a dyno session, but I'm concerned about a prolonged effort with more boost dialed in. Are the flanges just the way to go period, or is there maybe some sort of clamping design out there that I should consider. Thanks, BJ in Beantown, where it just keeps raining From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Jun 20 08:01:05 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 07:01:05 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. Message-ID: <4A3CEBA1.2040202@mayfco.com> Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do something with my time.... What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of your tongue.. mayf From jolylance at earthlink.net Sat Jun 20 12:06:30 2009 From: jolylance at earthlink.net (Joe Lance) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:06:30 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. In-Reply-To: <4A3CEBA1.2040202@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Maybe about 2.8 in some Fords in the 1980s Lance -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do something with my time.... What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of your tongue.. mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as jolylance at earthlink.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ddahlgren at snet.net Sat Jun 20 12:27:32 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:27:32 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it was a D36 C4 corvettes with auto std rear was a 2.59... surprised they put a D44 behind a 289..LOL a bit overbuilt.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Lance" To: ; "'LSR'" Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > Maybe about 2.8 in some Fords in the 1980s > > > > Lance > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM > To: LSR > Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > > > > Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre > > empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do > > something with my time.... > > > > What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in > > modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my > > real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available > > for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear > > gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of your > tongue.. > > > > mayf > Land-speed mailing list From adin at frontier.net Sat Jun 20 12:34:45 2009 From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:34:45 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. References: Message-ID: FYI The Tiger was either close or wide ratio with a Dana 44 2.88 ratio. Not the greatest combo. My Tiger had a 302/5 speed w. 3.54 - much more fun and still could cruise with ease. Overbuilt? maybe. I know I tried a drag race start once w/ very sticky tires - the car just shot forward and gave me whiplash. Ahhh, those were the days! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dahlgren" To: "Joe Lance" ; ; "'LSR'" Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > If it was a D36 C4 corvettes with auto std rear was a 2.59... surprised > they put a D44 behind a 289..LOL a bit overbuilt.. > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Lance" > To: ; "'LSR'" > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > > >> Maybe about 2.8 in some Fords in the 1980s >> >> >> >> Lance >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net >> [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf >> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM >> To: LSR >> Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. >> >> >> >> Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre >> >> empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do >> >> something with my time.... >> >> >> >> What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in >> >> modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my >> >> real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available >> >> for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear >> >> gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of your >> tongue.. >> >> >> >> mayf >> Land-speed mailing list > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 20 12:56:31 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. Message-ID: <3287.19009.qm@web51011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Nine inch Fords came in 2.47 a lot. as did the Dana 44 in my '77 Ford F100. I think I remember Gary Williams telling me that his V8 Monza has 2.27s or something around there. --- On Sat, 6/20/09, Joe Lance wrote: From: Joe Lance Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "'LSR'" Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 11:06 AM Maybe about 2.8 in some Fords in the 1980s Lance -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do something with my time.... What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of your tongue.. mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as jolylance at earthlink.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From 23.weldon at comcast.net Sat Jun 20 12:59:58 2009 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:59:58 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. References: Message-ID: <001a01c9f1d9$50e015f0$6401a8c0@S> Aw Mayf -- Just put a champ quickchange in it. You haven't lived until you've tasted pit juice, an aromatic concoction of XP, salt, sweat and sunblock. (also an effective preventer of tongueburn). Ed Weldon > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > >> [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf > >> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM > >> To: LSR > >> Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > >> ..........One of you out there has this information on the tip of your > >> tongue.. From joyseydevil at comcast.net Sat Jun 20 13:01:35 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:01:35 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. Message-ID: IRS Corvettes are Dana 36 or 44 and Jags are Dana 44 . They may be the lowest . > Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre > empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do something > with my time.... > > What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in > modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my real > Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available for a > Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear gear. > One of you out there has this information on the tip of your tongue.. > > mayf From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Jun 20 13:06:29 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:06:29 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A3D3335.70908@mayfco.com> Dave, lemme boggle your head a bit, lol... I also used to mess around with the 1954 supercharged Kaiser Manhattan Special Deluxe. I has the same ratio and same tapered axle hub as the Sunbeam Tiger. If you look into this months Hot Rod you can see the Kaiser in a two door version. Mine were 4 door. Actaully a nice riding car but absolutley no corrosion protection at all... mayf Dave Dahlgren wrote: > If it was a D36 C4 corvettes with auto std rear was a 2.59... > surprised they put a D44 behind a 289..LOL a bit overbuilt.. > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Lance" > To: ; "'LSR'" > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > > >> Maybe about 2.8 in some Fords in the 1980s >> >> >> >> Lance >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net >> [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf >> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM >> To: LSR >> Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. >> >> >> >> Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre >> >> empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do >> >> something with my time.... >> >> >> >> What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in >> >> modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my >> >> real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available >> >> for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear >> >> gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of your >> tongue.. >> >> >> >> mayf >> Land-speed mailing list From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Jun 20 13:07:33 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:07:33 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. In-Reply-To: <3287.19009.qm@web51011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <3287.19009.qm@web51011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A3D3375.2050802@mayfco.com> Good lead on teh monza. I will look into that... Thanks! mayf Rich Fox wrote: > Nine inch Fords came in 2.47 a lot. as did the Dana 44 in my '77 Ford > F100. I think I remember Gary Williams telling me that his V8 Monza > has 2.27s or something around there. > > --- On *Sat, 6/20/09, Joe Lance //* wrote: > > > From: Joe Lance > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "'LSR'" > Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 11:06 AM > > Maybe about 2.8 in some Fords in the 1980s > > > > Lance > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > > [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > ] > On Behalf Of drmayf > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM > To: LSR > Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > > > > Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have > been pre > > empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do > > something with my time.... > > > > What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in > > modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my > > real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio > available > > for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 > rear > > gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of > your tongue.. > > > > mayf > Land-speed mailing list > > > > You are subscribed as jolylance at earthlink.net > > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Jun 20 13:11:22 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:11:22 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. In-Reply-To: <001a01c9f1d9$50e015f0$6401a8c0@S> References: <001a01c9f1d9$50e015f0$6401a8c0@S> Message-ID: <4A3D345A.9040709@mayfco.com> This is for my real sunbeam tiger not the race car which is not a tiger at all. I have considered the use of the smaller roundy round car quick change units. But that gear set on the back might require that I cut Sunbeam Tiger sheet metal. If I did that, the Tiger revenge police would track me down, kill me, my family, all of my children, their families family until eternity, lol... mayf Ed Weldon wrote: >Aw Mayf -- Just put a champ quickchange in it. You haven't lived until >you've tasted pit juice, an aromatic concoction of XP, salt, sweat and >sunblock. (also an effective preventer of tongueburn). >Ed Weldon > > > >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net >>>>[mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf >>>>Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM >>>>To: LSR >>>>Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>..........One of you out there has this information on the tip of your >>>>tongue.. From sparky.2211 at cox.net Sat Jun 20 16:45:56 2009 From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (sparky.2211 at cox.net) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:45:56 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. In-Reply-To: <4A3D3375.2050802@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <20090620184556.FQN3M.476276.imail@fed1rmwml45> Monza is a GM 7.5--- available with 28 SPLINES ,which is AVAILABE with OPEN, Torsen, limited slip and a GOVlock autolocker series carriers. 2.14, 2.28, 2.52 2.73, 3.08 all will fit a 2 series carrier. > Good lead on teh monza. I will look into that... > Thanks! > > mayf > Rich Fox wrote: > > > Nine inch Fords came in 2.47 a lot. as did the Dana 44 in my '77 Ford > > F100. I think I remember Gary Williams telling me that his V8 Monza > > has 2.27s or something around there. > > > > --- On *Sat, 6/20/09, Joe Lance //* wrote: > > > > > > From: Joe Lance > > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > > To: drmayf at mayfco.com, "'LSR'" > > Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 11:06 AM > > > > Maybe about 2.8 in some Fords in the 1980s > > > > > > > > Lance > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > > > > [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net > > ] > > On Behalf Of drmayf > > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:01 AM > > To: LSR > > Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios.. > > > > > > > > Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have > > been pre > > > > empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do > > > > something with my time.... > > > > > > > > What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in > > > > modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my > > > > real Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio > > available > > > > for a Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 > > rear > > > > gear. One of you out there has this information on the tip of > > your tongue.. > > > > > > > > mayf > > Land-speed mailing list From joyseydevil at comcast.net Sat Jun 20 19:56:23 2009 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios... Message-ID: <8DB26EE42A8941FDBB21FD6557F86157@john> Mayf , the lowest I've seen mentioned is a Jaguar 2.76:1 . > Slightly different direction this morning... my car shows have been pre > empted by Ultimate Fighting Championship programs... have to do something > with my time.... > > What is the highest rear end ratio that was/is commonly available in > modern cars? I am thinking of something for better fuel mileage in my real > Sunbeam Tiger. Conversely, what was/is the highest ratio available for a > Dana 44 which is the OEM rear end. Right now it has a 2.88 rear gear. > One of you out there has this information on the tip of your tongue.. > > mayf From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Jun 21 11:12:01 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:12:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rear End Ratios Message-ID: <4A3E69E1.5050003@mayfco.com> Thanks folk! I have enough o think about for now. mayf From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Jun 23 18:28:32 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:28:32 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage References: <30115DA6CBA03C4F8BCA80653DA2A7100642D8@om.wsadamson.local> Message-ID: Well, now we know Louise was not part of the Jesse James production crew. She is apparently re-surfacing with an "Educational TV" crew at World of Speed. I get very nervous about self proclaimed land speed racing "experts." Mike Cook knows what I mean. Wes Begin forwarded message: > From: "Ron Christensen" > Date: June 23, 2009 5:50:08 PM MDT > To: , , > , , >, , , , > "Barrie Strachan" , "Robert Green" > > Subject: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage > > > Landspeed Louise comments on the James "record" claim: > > http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/06/23/466812.html From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Jun 23 20:01:30 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:01:30 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: References: <30115DA6CBA03C4F8BCA80653DA2A7100642D8@om.wsadamson.local> Message-ID: <20090624020055.8EE4D1879E7@autox.team.net> Ya think????? I feel a little more than nervous when folks claim records......like the wind powered effort by Boulder City a while back.......did their own timing aboard the vehicle......Ought to be certifiable????? By whom???? One just might count up all the cars and bikes that qualified and then, for some reason, were not able to make the return/backup run. If the qualifying run was counted as a record, like Jesse and others want to do, then the record book would be filled with bogus records, huh? And then holding a record wouldn't mean nearly so much. The record is the only "prize" that we get....not even a trophy for fast time unless a record is broken. Why can't folks just follow the rules? What and where ever they are. And once that's done successfully and certified, claim the record. It ain't easy................ Skip At 05:28 PM 6/23/2009, Wester Potter wrote: >Well, now we know Louise was not part of the Jesse James production >crew. >She is apparently re-surfacing with an "Educational TV" crew at World >of Speed. >I get very nervous about self proclaimed land speed racing "experts." >Mike Cook knows what I mean. > >Wes > > >Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "Ron Christensen" > > Date: June 23, 2009 5:50:08 PM MDT > > To: , , > > , , > >, , , , > > "Barrie Strachan" , "Robert Green" > > > > Subject: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage > > > > > > Landspeed Louise comments on the James "record" claim: > > > > http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/06/23/466812.html From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 21:45:40 2009 From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug .............) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:45:40 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <20090624020055.8EE4D1879E7@autox.team.net> References: <30115DA6CBA03C4F8BCA80653DA2A7100642D8@om.wsadamson.local> <20090624020055.8EE4D1879E7@autox.team.net> Message-ID: "Why can't folks just follow the rules?" Because they are lazy and always seek the easy way out ? And all they really care about is the glitz and notoriety of hot rodding, -and 'getting "ink" -not the -real- essence of it... just my 2 cents Your Mileage May Vary c heers, 'Dirt Track Doug ' -105 + miles south of the world famous 'Syracuse Mile ' -241.4 miles north of the Williams Grove Speedway pit gate -2247 or so miles due east of the marvelous Bonneville Salt Flats ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:01:30 -0700 > To: wester6935 at comcast.net; land-speed at autox.team.net > From: saltrat at pahrump.com > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage > > Ya think????? > > I feel a little more than nervous when folks claim records......like > the wind powered effort by Boulder City a while back.......did their > own timing aboard the vehicle......Ought to be certifiable????? By whom???? > > One just might count up all the cars and bikes that qualified and > then, for some reason, were not able to make the return/backup run. > If the qualifying run was counted as a record, like Jesse and others > want to do, then the record book would be filled with bogus records, > huh? And then holding a record wouldn't mean nearly so much. The > record is the only "prize" that we get....not even a trophy for fast > time unless a record is broken. > > Why can't folks just follow the rules? What and where ever they are. > And once that's done successfully and certified, claim the record. It > ain't easy................ > > Skip > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > > > At 05:28 PM 6/23/2009, Wester Potter wrote: Well, now we know Louise was not part of the Jesse James production crew. > >She is apparently re-surfacing with an "Educational TV" crew at World of Speed. > >I get very nervous about self proclaimed land speed racing "experts." Mike Cook knows what I mean. Wes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > From: "Ron Christensen" > > > Date: June 23, 2009 5:50:08 PM MDT > > > To: , , > > > , , > > >, , , , > > > "Barrie Strachan" , "Robert Green" <20090624020055.8EE4D1879E7@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <14C64ABD21A545FAA1C8A616991A34E3@keithhrijwmm4p> actually Skip... that's exactly what Jesse did... he followed the rules as they apply... to Hydrogen Powered Vehicles at El Mirage... oh wait... there are no current rules for alternate Fuel Vehicles... well then I guess he needed to make some eh??? Following the FIA which Louise proports is udder Horse dookey... None of us that race at speedweek give a tiddlers damn about the FIA... ( or El Mirage for that matter )... Point being this.... Jesse James wanted to say he has the Fastest Hydorgen Powered Vehicle on the Planet... and because I trust Mike Cook to be honest... He was timed at 199.7mph ... that was a recorded speed...hence it's a Record... What is a record... let alone a world record... we've beat this to death... and ultimately it really comes down to deciding on your own how you define it... Personally The FIA and the French can go away... F1 isn't going to be part of them anymore... why should we be... Basically the e-mail Louise wrote and reported to the world is an attempt to get some ink because he most likely told her to go pound sand... If I was Jesse I'd sue her for Slander... Keith From v4gmr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 22:41:52 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Message-ID: <408171.62510.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I would disagree. The BMW record is a two run over a measured mile average. JJs run is terminal speed on his best run. That is not a honest comparison. I don't know what the BMW had for it's fastest out the end speed. So it doesn't seem right, to me, to say you "Brought the record back to the USA" And that is what JJs news release says. --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Keith Turk wrote: From: Keith Turk Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage To: "Wester Potter" , "LAND SPEED LIST" , "Skip Higginbotham" Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:30 PM actually Skip... that's exactly what Jesse did... he followed the rules as they apply... to Hydrogen Powered Vehicles at El Mirage... oh wait... there are no current rules for alternate Fuel Vehicles... well then I guess he needed to make some eh??? Following the FIA which Louise proports is udder Horse dookey... None of us that race at speedweek give a tiddlers damn about the FIA... ( or El Mirage for that matter )... Point being this.... Jesse James wanted to say he has the Fastest Hydorgen Powered Vehicle on the Planet... and because I trust Mike Cook to be honest... He was timed at 199.7mph ... that was a recorded speed...hence it's a Record... What is a record... let alone a world record... we've beat this to death... and ultimately it really comes down to deciding on your own how you define it... Personally The FIA and the French can go away... F1 isn't going to be part of them anymore... why should we be... Basically the e-mail Louise wrote and reported to the world is an attempt to get some ink because he most likely told her to go pound sand... If I was Jesse I'd sue her for Slander... Keith _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From kturk at adelphia.net Tue Jun 23 22:55:04 2009 From: kturk at adelphia.net (Keith Turk) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:55:04 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage References: <408171.62510.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <132AEB51C5D243039D22EDF17F5F9625@keithhrijwmm4p> Simply answer this question... who's got the fastest Hydrogen powered car in the world? Not how was it done... what procedures so on and so forth... Just the facts here... Who's the fastest??? Yes it's more difficult to follow the FIA guidelines... without question... yes a two way run over a Mile is more difficult and dare I say even more credible... but Wait... Credible to WHO??? and when the only thing you care about is who's the fastest... What's the difference? the question isn't who's the fastest over a mile or according to Hoyle.. the question is... "WHO IS THE FASTEST"... So anyway... there you go... my take on it... Keith From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Jun 23 23:18:01 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:18:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <14C64ABD21A545FAA1C8A616991A34E3@keithhrijwmm4p> References: <30115DA6CBA03C4F8BCA80653DA2A7100642D8@om.wsadamson.local> <20090624020055.8EE4D1879E7@autox.team.net> <14C64ABD21A545FAA1C8A616991A34E3@keithhrijwmm4p> Message-ID: <4A41B709.2010101@mayfco.com> Keith, hydrogen is listed as an approved fuel for the fuel class. So given JJ's engine size all he really needed to do was to go faster than the current AA fuel streamliner at EM. So no, I wouldn't say he has the fastest anything just yet, lol. What is the recordd there for the ECTA in AA/Fuel Streamliner? ANyway, who the heck really gives a shit what he does? It is all for entertainment and for him to make a living (a good one, I suspect). I never cared for him or his shows. No I have seen a couple of snippets about LSL. Is she making trouble again? mayf Keith Turk wrote: > actually Skip... that's exactly what Jesse did... he followed the > rules as they apply... to Hydrogen Powered Vehicles at El Mirage... oh > wait... there are no current rules for alternate Fuel Vehicles... well > then I guess he needed to make some eh??? > > Following the FIA which Louise proports is udder Horse dookey... None > of us that race at speedweek give a tiddlers damn about the FIA... ( > or El Mirage for that matter )... > > Point being this.... Jesse James wanted to say he has the Fastest > Hydorgen Powered Vehicle on the Planet... and because I trust Mike > Cook to be honest... He was timed at 199.7mph ... that was a recorded > speed...hence it's a Record... > > What is a record... let alone a world record... we've beat this to > death... and ultimately it really comes down to deciding on your own > how you define it... > > Personally The FIA and the French can go away... F1 isn't going to be > part of them anymore... why should we be... > > Basically the e-mail Louise wrote and reported to the world is an > attempt to get some ink because he most likely told her to go pound > sand... If I was Jesse I'd sue her for Slander... > > Keith _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 00:06:57 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Message-ID: <8152.54767.qm@web51010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> And my take to repeat. How fast was the Beemer on it's fast leg at terminal speed? I don't know. Possibly faster than 199. But since we can't compare apples and oranges we will never know which was faster. Jesse gives us his terminal speed on his fastest run of the day. No fair. RF --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Keith Turk wrote: From: Keith Turk Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage To: "Rich Fox" , "Wester Potter" , "LAND SPEED LIST" , "Skip Higginbotham" Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:55 PM Simply answer this question... who's got the fastest Hydrogen powered car in the world? Not how was it done... what procedures so on and so forth... Just the facts here... Who's the fastest??? Yes it's more difficult to follow the FIA guidelines... without question... yes a two way run over a Mile is more difficult and dare I say even more credible... but Wait... Credible to WHO??? and when the only thing you care about is who's the fastest... What's the difference? the question isn't who's the fastest over a mile or according to Hoyle.. the question is... "WHO IS THE FASTEST"... So anyway... there you go... my take on it... Keith From kturk at adelphia.net Wed Jun 24 04:51:12 2009 From: kturk at adelphia.net (Keith Turk) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:51:12 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage References: <30115DA6CBA03C4F8BCA80653DA2A7100642D8@om.wsadamson.local> <20090624020055.8EE4D1879E7@autox.team.net> <14C64ABD21A545FAA1C8A616991A34E3@keithhrijwmm4p> <4A41B709.2010101@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <73218F51D87244A495AD5AFEFC4CA89B@keithhrijwmm4p> I'd lump Hyrdrogen and Nitromethane in the same pot... and call them equal... Wait... that's not true.. The ECTA has a New Alternate Fuel class this year and we allow the competitor to define the fuel... So if you run your junk on Steam or french fry oil and wish to claim you have the fastest XXX at Maxton... You can do that... ( I might also be good if you could say your exhaust was edible or in Jesse's case you could wash your hands in it ) 199.7 is a bigger number then 185, both of which are the recorded speeds for each of these attempts... Yes if the BMW had a recorded speed it's exit speed it might have been.... 459mph but since it wasn't recorded or reported... then guess we have to go with what we actually know... Point being... we as a group try and define ourselves within a given set of guidelines... and then we expect the outside world to know and understand the rules... and frankly I don't think they care.... Louise is going to operate on the premise that FIA is the only sanctioning body in LSR... and that's not a correct or even popular statement. That's about it... my fingers hurt... Life is Good... busy but GOOD... Keith From v4gmr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 05:28:15 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Message-ID: <652201.38287.qm@web51011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> 199.7 is a bigger number then 185, both of which are the recorded speeds for each of these attempts... Yes if the BMW had a recorded speed it's exit speed it might have been.... 459mph but since it wasn't recorded or reported... then guess we have to go with what we actually know... This is exactly why we don't compare exit speeds with record speeds and then declare that my exit speed is the "New Record Speed". It detracts from the integrity of the endeavor. It was dishonest to claim "Jesse has brought the record back to the USA" in the press release. It's simply not true. Show me what record he got other than the one in his mind. We play on a level playing field. Record runs to record runs. We do not allow Top Fuel Dragsters to claim Lakester records. I can not understand how you can support this Reality TV attempt at circumventing decades of established tradition that you and I have run under. --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Keith Turk wrote: From: Keith Turk Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage To: drmayf at mayfco.com Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 3:51 AM I'd lump Hyrdrogen and Nitromethane in the same pot... and call them equal... Wait... that's not true.. The ECTA has a New Alternate Fuel class this year and we allow the competitor to define the fuel... So if you run your junk on Steam or french fry oil and wish to claim you have the fastest XXX at Maxton... You can do that... ( I might also be good if you could say your exhaust was edible or in Jesse's case you could wash your hands in it ) 199.7 is a bigger number then 185, both of which are the recorded speeds for each of these attempts... Yes if the BMW had a recorded speed it's exit speed it might have been.... 459mph but since it wasn't recorded or reported... then guess we have to go with what we actually know... Point being... we as a group try and define ourselves within a given set of guidelines... and then we expect the outside world to know and understand the rules... and frankly I don't think they care.... Louise is going to operate on the premise that FIA is the only sanctioning body in LSR... and that's not a correct or even popular statement. That's about it... my fingers hurt... Life is Good... busy but GOOD... Keith Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as v4gmr at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ddahlgren at snet.net Wed Jun 24 07:03:52 2009 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:03:52 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <73218F51D87244A495AD5AFEFC4CA89B@keithhrijwmm4p> References: <30115DA6CBA03C4F8BCA80653DA2A7100642D8@om.wsadamson.local><20090624020055.8EE4D1879E7@autox.team.net><14C64ABD21A545FAA1C8A616991A34E3@keithhrijwmm4p><4A41B709.2010101@mayfco.com> <73218F51D87244A495AD5AFEFC4CA89B@keithhrijwmm4p> Message-ID: <61A93BFB60294681BA6E17D53FC784BC@DaveSatellite> The only valid way to set a record of any kind where speed is involved is to either specify the distace measured or the time in the case of a 12 or 24 hour endurance attempt. The rest is pointless and self serving. real point is this was entertainment and without claiming a record or accoplishment it would have less entertainment value than it currently does.. whick is not much..LOL Here is the real reality check for me, it has a claimed 780 hp in a streamliner so lets call it an NA 450 inch bbc on gas what might be the record for that? Though saying that Rick Yacoucci ran a 210 with a G/GS so 199 is really hauling the mail righ? I don't think so... If we are going to have classes definined by the competitors I want one for a green C4 Corvette with a stock L98 Automatic Kendwood CD player driven by someone over 57 on Mobil 93 octane fuel and driven to the track from Mystic Ct by the competitor.. Lets just call the class 'My Car'... Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Turk" To: Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage > I'd lump Hyrdrogen and Nitromethane in the same pot... and call them > equal... Wait... that's not true.. The ECTA has a New Alternate Fuel > class this year and we allow the competitor to define the fuel... So if > you run your junk on Steam or french fry oil and wish to claim you have > the fastest XXX at Maxton... You can do that... ( I might also be good if > you could say your exhaust was edible or in Jesse's case you could wash > your hands in it ) > > 199.7 is a bigger number then 185, both of which are the recorded speeds > for each of these attempts... Yes if the BMW had a recorded speed it's > exit speed it might have been.... 459mph but since it wasn't recorded or > reported... then guess we have to go with what we actually know... > > Point being... we as a group try and define ourselves within a given set > of guidelines... and then we expect the outside world to know and > understand the rules... and frankly I don't think they care.... Louise is > going to operate on the premise that FIA is the only sanctioning body in > LSR... and that's not a correct or even popular statement. > > That's about it... my fingers hurt... > > Life is Good... busy but GOOD... > > Keith From wester6935 at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 07:56:30 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:56:30 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage References: Message-ID: <605A375A-FD37-491C-84EF-35A5134A6270@comcast.net> > We have a class for that at World of Speed Dave, it's called the 130 > Club. The problem for you is that the record is for the driver, not > the car. You just can't go over 139.999 mph and stay in the class. > The next class requires a roll cage and some other modifications, > you have to go faster than 150.000 mph but under 159.999. You would > likely have to bring your own fuel. There's no Mobile Stations in > Wendover, UT or Wendover, NE that I know of. > > Jesse apparently has a parachute. It would be interesting to see > how his liner would do in a salt flats tech inspection. What is the > distance over which vehicles are timed at El Mirage by the SCTA? I > know it's not a full mile. Kenny Hoover holds that El Mirage A Fuel > Streamliner record at 253.991. > > Wes > > On Jun 24, 2009, at 7:03 AM, Dave Dahlgren wrote: > >> The only valid way to set a record of any kind where speed is >> involved is to either specify the distance measured or the time in >> the case of a 12 or 24 hour endurance attempt. The rest is >> pointless and self serving. real point is this was entertainment >> and without claiming a record or accoplishment it would have less >> entertainment value than it currently does.. whick is not much..LOL >> Here is the real reality check for me, it has a claimed 780 hp in a >> streamliner so lets call it an NA 450 inch bbc on gas what might be >> the record for that? Though saying that Rick Yacoucci ran a 210 >> with a G/GS so 199 is really hauling the mail right? I don't think >> so... >> >> If we are going to have classes definined by the competitors I want >> one for a green C4 Corvette with a stock L98 Automatic Kendwood CD >> player driven by someone over 57 on Mobil 93 octane fuel and driven >> to the track from Mystic Ct by the competitor.. Lets just call the >> class 'My Car'... >> Dave >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Turk" >> To: >> Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Wed Jun 24 08:01:39 2009 From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:01:39 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <605A375A-FD37-491C-84EF-35A5134A6270@comcast.net> References: <605A375A-FD37-491C-84EF-35A5134A6270@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20C218740@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> Actually it's 1.3 miles...132 foot trap at the end. Mike Meierle #847 F/BMMP SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA ECTA Record Holder -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wester Potter Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:57 AM To: Dave Dahlgren; LAND SPEED LIST Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage > We have a class for that at World of Speed Dave, it's called the 130 > Club. The problem for you is that the record is for the driver, not > the car. You just can't go over 139.999 mph and stay in the class. > The next class requires a roll cage and some other modifications, you > have to go faster than 150.000 mph but under 159.999. You would > likely have to bring your own fuel. There's no Mobile Stations in > Wendover, UT or Wendover, NE that I know of. > > Jesse apparently has a parachute. It would be interesting to see how > his liner would do in a salt flats tech inspection. What is the > distance over which vehicles are timed at El Mirage by the SCTA? I > know it's not a full mile. Kenny Hoover holds that El Mirage A Fuel > Streamliner record at 253.991. > > Wes > > On Jun 24, 2009, at 7:03 AM, Dave Dahlgren wrote: > >> The only valid way to set a record of any kind where speed is >> involved is to either specify the distance measured or the time in >> the case of a 12 or 24 hour endurance attempt. The rest is pointless >> and self serving. real point is this was entertainment and without >> claiming a record or accoplishment it would have less entertainment >> value than it currently does.. whick is not much..LOL Here is the >> real reality check for me, it has a claimed 780 hp in a streamliner >> so lets call it an NA 450 inch bbc on gas what might be the record >> for that? Though saying that Rick Yacoucci ran a 210 with a G/GS so >> 199 is really hauling the mail right? I don't think so... >> >> If we are going to have classes definined by the competitors I want >> one for a green C4 Corvette with a stock L98 Automatic Kendwood CD >> player driven by someone over 57 on Mobil 93 octane fuel and driven >> to the track from Mystic Ct by the competitor.. Lets just call the >> class 'My Car'... >> Dave >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Turk" >> To: >> Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 09:03:22 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Message-ID: <102000.60145.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am still trying to bring KT around on this....It is my contention that records are meaningless unless we have a standard to compare them to. Which has been the two runs, measured mile, average speed deal that we all have run under. Keith and Jesse are proposing doing away with this as a standard method of defining record performance. OK lets do that. And you know what? while we are at it I would like to bypass the old standard of 5280 feet per mile. Who really cares how many feet there are in a mile? Not the TV viewing public, so I am going to run with a 5000 foot mile. And why use exit speed? If we are not going to use average speed, exit speed isn't necessary either. Lets go by radar or GPS. I know the car was running at least 20 mph faster (5000 ft. miles) just before it nosed over. at the 3026 ft. mark. Lets use that speed. When we deviate from established standards because it is easier that way we make records meaning less. That's what I think. RF From NT788 at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 09:19:36 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:19:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <102000.60145.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <433227274.7106481245856776880.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> B I told everyone I rolled a marble off my roofB in three seconds, faster than anyone in the world, and now hold the record! Come on over and beat the record! Records are meaningless, but I like them! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:03:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage I am still trying to bring KT around on this....It is my contention that records are meaningless unless we have a standard to compare them to. Which has been the two runs, measured mile, average speed deal that we all have run under. Keith and Jesse are proposing doing away with this as a standard method of defining record performance. OK lets do that. And you know what? while we are at it I would like to bypass the old standard of 5280 feet per mile. Who really cares how many feet there are in a mile? Not the TV viewing public, so I am going to run with a 5000 foot mile. And why use exit speed? If we are not going to use average speed, B exit speed isn't necessary either. Lets go by radar or GPS. I know the car was running at least 20 mph faster (5000 ft. miles) just before it nosed over. at the 3026 ft. mark. Lets use that speed. When we deviate from established standards because it is easier that way we make records meaning less. That's what I think.B RF From v4gmr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 09:30:46 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Message-ID: <222247.30207.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Without records we may as well just run individually whenever we want to and just have fun doing it. That sounds pretty good really. Why set up clocks and survey a track? If it feels good, do it. I know Jack well enough to know he really likes records. A lot. No mater what he just wrote. RF --- On Wed, 6/24/09, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: From: NT788 at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage To: "Rich Fox" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 8:19 AM #yiv1824748732 p {margin:0;} I told everyone I rolled a marble off my roof in three seconds, faster than anyone in the world, and now hold the record! Come on over and beat the record! Records are meaningless, but I like them! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:03:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage I am still trying to bring KT around on this....It is my contention that records are meaningless unless we have a standard to compare them to. Which has been the two runs, measured mile, average speed deal that we all have run under. Keith and Jesse are proposing doing away with this as a standard method of defining record performance. OK lets do that. And you know what? while we are at it I would like to bypass the old standard of 5280 feet per mile. Who really cares how many feet there are in a mile? Not the TV viewing public, so I am going to run with a 5000 foot mile. And why use exit speed? If we are not going to use average speed, exit speed isn't necessary either. Lets go by radar or GPS. I know the car was running at least 20 mph faster (5000 ft. miles) just before it nosed over. at the 3026 ft. mark. Lets use that speed. When we deviate from established standards because it is easier that way we make records meaning less. That's what I think. RF From NT788 at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 09:35:24 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:35:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <222247.30207.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <493148302.7113311245857724369.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Rich do we still hold any? I guess I could look at the rule book. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:30:46 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Without records we may as well just run individually whenever we want to and just have fun doing it. That sounds pretty good really. Why set up clocks and survey a track? If it feels good, do it. I know Jack well enough to know he really likes records. A lot. No mater what he just wrote.B RF --- On Wed, 6/24/09, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: From: NT788 at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage To: "Rich Fox" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 8:19 AM B I told everyone I rolled a marble off my roofB in three seconds, faster than anyone in the world, and now hold the record! Come on over and beat the record! Records are meaningless, but I like them! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:03:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage I am still trying to bring KT around on this....It is my contention that records are meaningless unless we have a standard to compare them to. Which has been the two runs, measured mile, average speed deal that we all have run under. Keith and Jesse are proposing doing away with this as a standard method of defining record performance. OK lets do that. And you know what? while we are at it I would like to bypass the old standard of 5280 feet per mile. Who really cares how many feet there are in a mile? Not the TV viewing public, so I am going to run with a 5000 foot mile. And why use exit speed? If we are not going to use average speed, B exit speed isn't necessary either. Lets go by radar or GPS . I know the car was running at least 20 mph faster (5000 ft. miles) just before it nosed over. at the 3026 ft. mark. Lets use that speed. When we deviate from established standards because it is easier that way we make records meaning less. That's what I think.B RF From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Jun 24 10:00:37 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:00:37 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <102000.60145.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <102000.60145.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A424DA5.9070106@mayfco.com> Rich Fox wrote: > I am still trying to bring KT around on this....It is my > contention that records are meaningless unless we have a standard > to compare them to. Which has been the two runs, measured mile, > average speed deal that we all have run under. Keith and Jesse are > proposing doing away with this as a standard method of defining > record performance. OK lets do that. And you know what? while we > are at it I would like to bypass the old standard of 5280 feet per > mile. Who really cares how many feet there are in a mile? Not the > TV viewing public, so I am going to run with a 5000 foot mile. And > why use exit speed? If we are not going to use average speed, > exit speed isn't necessary either. Lets go by radar or GPS. I > know the car was running at least 20 mph faster (5000 ft. miles) > just before it nosed over. at the 3026 ft. mark. Lets use that > speed. When we deviate from established standards because it is > easier that way we make records meaning less. That's what I think. RF > > Lemme see, ECTA uses a mile run up to a 132 ft trap, EM uses a 1.3 mile run up toi a 132 ft trap, Tex Mile I think uses a mile run up to a 132 ft trap. And all are one run only records. There are a lot of things wrong in the manner of the calimed record but the major issue is that the BMW ran a two way average timed by appropriate sanctioning body. And I think it was done within the 1 hour time limit. I may have facts wrong. I am getting old, lol. In JJs claim he made several runs to get the top speed for the car, none a two way average. And yet entirely consistent with how the ECTA, EM and Tex Mile measure their runs. None I think require a two way average. And that is the rub here. Even if he had run a two way average on the salt during one of the events there, it would not be a challenge to the World record. If that was so, many runs made on the salt under SCTA or USFRA could be defined as World records. Well, other than the fact that they do not make runs in the other direction wihin an hour. That's JJs problem he never made an apples to apples run anywhere. Now He may claim to have the fastest H2 powered vehicle at EM and that would be true. And, heck, it would not even be a EM record! Current record for fuel class with AA motor is 305 and change. So he really does not have any kind of record at all. Just a fast run made using H2 as fuel. And I certainly don't mind if he claims he made the fastest run in America using hydrogen as fuel. Someone also made mention of the wind powered record set over at the dry lake, Ivanpah. That record was timed using instrumentation defined by their sanctioning body and reviewed by independent observers. That sanctioning body did indeed certify that record according to their rules. In any case, great fun in the discussions, just lets not let our arguments outweigh the sensibility or importance of the thing. mayf From neil at dbelltech.com Wed Jun 24 10:18:30 2009 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:18:30 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <222247.30207.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <222247.30207.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67B1917A9C3841ED8CBCDF5B18A02C48@DBTech> List; Our Ordnance Detachment's Executive Officer, CWO R.B. Love, once had the world's record for peeing out of a moving Jeep. It meant about as much as some of these "World's Records". Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rich Fox Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:31 AM To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: LAND SPEED LIST Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Without records we may as well just run individually whenever we want to and just have fun doing it. That sounds pretty good really. Why set up clocks and survey a track? If it feels good, do it. I know Jack well enough to know he really likes records. A lot. No mater what he just wrote. RF --- On Wed, 6/24/09, NT788 at comcast.net wrote: From: NT788 at comcast.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage To: "Rich Fox" Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 8:19 AM #yiv1824748732 p {margin:0;} I told everyone I rolled a marble off my roof in three seconds, faster than anyone in the world, and now hold the record! Come on over and beat the record! Records are meaningless, but I like them! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" , drmayf at mayfco.com, "Keith Turk" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:03:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage I am still trying to bring KT around on this....It is my contention that records are meaningless unless we have a standard to compare them to. Which has been the two runs, measured mile, average speed deal that we all have run under. Keith and Jesse are proposing doing away with this as a standard method of defining record performance. OK lets do that. And you know what? while we are at it I would like to bypass the old standard of 5280 feet per mile. Who really cares how many feet there are in a mile? Not the TV viewing public, so I am going to run with a 5000 foot mile. And why use exit speed? If we are not going to use average speed, exit speed isn't necessary either. Lets go by radar or GPS. I know the car was running at least 20 mph faster (5000 ft. miles) just before it nosed over. at the 3026 ft. mark. Lets use that speed. When we deviate from established standards because it is easier that way we make records meaning less. That's what I think. RF Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From v4gmr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 10:25:25 2009 From: v4gmr at yahoo.com (Rich Fox) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] JJ and the "Record" Message-ID: <883485.95637.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> There you go again....However easy it is to dismiss Jesse James and his frolicking in the Dirt the reality remains that he went faster then anyone has ever gone with a Internal Combustion engine on Hydrogen...You don't know that. You have no idea how fast the Beemer went at it's fastest. That's because we are still comparing apples and oranges. And we will always be doing the same unless we accept a set of defined standards. Which we did years ago. JJ didn't get any certificate stating he got any record. Because he didn't get a record. I have a number of record certs from El Mirage. They all say "Dry Lake Record. 1.3 miles at El Mirage" on them. That's the standard I was running on that day. Same one JJ was running on. From jet at pistonsandrods.com Wed Jun 24 10:26:00 2009 From: jet at pistonsandrods.com (Jet Fuel) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:26:00 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <4A424DA5.9070106@mayfco.com> References: <102000.60145.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A424DA5.9070106@mayfco.com> Message-ID: > There are a lot of things wrong in the > manner of the calimed record but the major issue is that the BMW ran a two > way average timed by appropriate sanctioning body. And I think it was done > within the 1 hour time limit. I may have facts wrong. I am getting old >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_H2R Record Time (s) Speed Flying-start kilometre 11.99 187.62 mph (301.95 km/h) Flying-start mile 19.91 181.85 mph (292.66 km/h) Standing-start 1/8 kilometre 9.92 45.62 mph (73.42 km/h) Standing-start 1/4 kilometre 14.93 60.62 mph (97.56 km/h) Standing-start 1/2 mile 17.27 65.15 mph (104.85 km/h) Standing-start mile 36.73 98.60 mph (158.68 km/h) Standing-start 10 miles (16 km) 221.05 163.81 mph (263.63 km/h) Standing-start kilometre 26.56 84.72 mph (136.34 km/h) Standing-start 10 kilometre 146.41 153.90 mph (247.68 km/h) According to http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/hydrogen/h2r_racer.htm 'The records were set at the high-speed Miramas Proving Grounds in France in September 2004.' The Mirmas Proving Grounds is also known as the BMW Autodrome. The track is almost four miles long (6+km), banked, and paved. The satellite view: http://tinyurl.com/m6nmo5 I don't see any mention of repeated runs or FIA as a sanctioning body? It seems both efforts resulted in numbers posted in no ones' books but their own? - 966B Glen From saltfever at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 12:39:39 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:39:39 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Message-ID: <000f01c9f4fb$2211f2a0$6635d7e0$@net> Jack: Did you lose your marbles? LOL From saltrat at pahrump.com Wed Jun 24 13:39:20 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:39:20 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Records In-Reply-To: <883485.95637.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <883485.95637.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090624193850.558B5187CE6@autox.team.net> Rich, Exactly the same point that I was trying to make......apples and oranges.....thank you. Mayf, The North American Land Sailing Association did a very good job of documenting the run(s) for the Greenbird effort. But it is no more a world record than times at the Texas Mile or ECTA, Loring, or El Mirage. And at least at the drags and Bonneville a backup run has to be made. And the course is defined.....and it is no accident what course needs to be used. Unlike Greenbird.... However, their (Greenbird's) accomplishment, as I have said before, is remarkable and they are to be commended. Everybody, Now how can we get the "sanctioning bodies" together and (re)establish some worldwide rules..........? Couldn't any more difficult than the UN.............or NATO, or....?(-:(-: Skip At 09:25 AM 6/24/2009, Rich Fox wrote: >There you go again....However easy it is to dismiss Jesse James and >his frolicking in the Dirt the reality remains that he went faster >then anyone has ever gone with a Internal Combustion engine on >Hydrogen...You don't know that. You have no idea how fast the Beemer >went at it's fastest. That's because we are still comparing apples >and oranges. And we will always be doing the same unless we accept a >set of defined standards. Which we did years ago. JJ didn't get any >certificate stating he got any record. Because he didn't get a >record. I have a number of record certs from El Mirage. They all say >"Dry Lake Record. 1.3 miles at El Mirage" on them. That's the >standard I was running on that day. Same one JJ was running on. >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as saltrat at pahrump.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 13:39:34 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:39:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <000f01c9f4fb$2211f2a0$6635d7e0$@net> Message-ID: <1749731216.7223551245872374167.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> All of them! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirkwood" To: "land-speed" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:39:39 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Land-speed] Jesse James "record" at El Mirage Jack: Did you lose your marbles? B LOL Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 13:48:36 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:48:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <379542570.7226781245872916484.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Jet He says its his world record. Free speech has nothing to do with accuracy.Just put your nose in the air next time you see him. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jet Fuel" To: "LAND SPEED LIST" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:26:00 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage > There are a lot of things wrong in B the > B manner of the calimed record but the major issue is that the BMW ran a two > way average timed by appropriate sanctioning body. And I think it was done > within the 1 hour time limit. I B may have facts wrong. I am getting old >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_H2R Record Time (s) Speed Flying-start kilometre 11.99 187.62 mph (301.95 km/h) Flying-start mile 19.91 181.85 mph (292.66 km/h) Standing-start 1/8 kilometre 9.92 45.62 mph (73.42 km/h) Standing-start 1/4 kilometre 14.93 60.62 mph (97.56 km/h) Standing-start 1/2 mile 17.27 65.15 mph (104.85 km/h) Standing-start mile 36.73 98.60 mph (158.68 km/h) Standing-start 10 miles (16 km) 221.05 163.81 mph (263.63 km/h) Standing-start kilometre 26.56 84.72 mph (136.34 km/h) Standing-start 10 kilometre 146.41 153.90 mph (247.68 km/h) According to http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/hydrogen/h2r_racer.htm 'The records were set at the high-speed Miramas Proving Grounds in France in September 2004.' The Mirmas Proving Grounds is also known as the BMW Autodrome. The track is almost four miles long (6+km), banked, and paved. The satellite view: http://tinyurl.com/m6nmo5 I don't see any mention of repeated runs or FIA as a sanctioning body? It seems both efforts resulted in numbers posted in no ones' books but their own? - 966B Glen Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From NT788 at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 13:56:07 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:56:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] Records In-Reply-To: <20090624193850.558B5187CE6@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <1036494915.7230241245873367681.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Skip When the word world, gets over used, then we will have to deal with "universal".That should be easy to fix! Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham " < saltrat @ pahrump .com> To: "Rich Fox" , "land-speed" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:39:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Land-speed] Records Rich, Exactly the same point that I was trying to make......apples and oranges.....thank you. Mayf , The North American Land Sailing Association did a very good job of documenting the run(s) for the Greenbird effort. But it is no more a world record than times at the Texas Mile or ECTA , Loring , or El Mirage. And at least at the drags and Bonneville a backup run has to be made. And the course is defined.....and it is no accident what course needs to be used. Unlike Greenbird .... However, their ( Greenbird's ) accomplishment, as I have said before, is remarkable and they are to be commended. Everybody, Now how can we get the "sanctioning bodies" together and (re)establish some worldwide rules..........? Couldn't any more difficult than the UN.............or NATO, or....?(-:(-: Skip At 09:25 AM 6/24/2009, Rich Fox wrote: >There you go again....However easy it is to dismiss Jesse James and >his frolicking in the Dirt the reality remains that he went faster >then anyone has ever gone with a Internal Combustion engine on >Hydrogen...You don't know that. You have no idea how fast the Beemer >went at it's fastest. That's because we are still comparing apples >and oranges. And we will always be doing the same unless we accept a >set of defined standards. Which we did years ago. JJ didn't get any >certificate stating he got any record. Because he didn't get a >record. I have a number of record certs from El Mirage. They all say >"Dry Lake Record. 1.3 miles at El Mirage" on them. That's the >standard I was running on that day. Same one JJ was running on. > _______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net B http :// www .team.net/donate. html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as saltrat @ pahrump .com > > http :// autox .team.net/mailman/ listinfo /land-speed _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net B http :// www .team.net/donate. html Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http :// autox .team.net/mailman/ listinfo /land-speed From jet at pistonsandrods.com Wed Jun 24 14:00:32 2009 From: jet at pistonsandrods.com (Jet Fuel) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:00:32 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Jesse James "record" at El Mirage In-Reply-To: <379542570.7226781245872916484.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <379542570.7226781245872916484.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:48 PM, wrote: > He says its his world record. Free speech has nothing to do with > accuracy. Agreed. The 'record' exists only in his own personal book. ...and I suspect that applies to the BMW effort as well. For all we know, some crafty Aussie has gone faster on Lake Gairdner and we just haven't heard about it? ...and he's got a record in his own personal book too? > Just put your nose in the air next time you see him. I think you know I'm pretty much incapable of doing that to ~anyone~. Missing your presence out there, Jack. Hope to see you soon. - 966B Glen ...working on my personal nosehair tweezer record as I type. From NT788 at comcast.net Wed Jun 24 14:02:08 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] JJ and the "Record" In-Reply-To: <883485.95637.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1079057050.7232471245873728165.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Rich I need SCTA. JJ dosen't. and thats ok with me.B jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" To: "land-speed" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:25:25 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Land-speed] JJ and the "Record" There you go again....However easy it is to dismiss Jesse James and his frolicking in the Dirt the reality remains that he went faster then anyone has ever gone with a Internal Combustion engine on Hydrogen...You don't know that. You have no idea how fast the Beemer went at it's fastest. That's because we are still comparing apples and oranges. And we will always be doing the same unless we accept a set of defined standards. Which we did years ago. JJ didn't get any certificate stating he got any record. Because he didn't get a record. I have a number of record certs from El Mirage. They all say "Dry Lake Record. 1.3 miles at El Mirage" on them. That's the standard I was running on that day. Same one JJ was running on. Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Thu Jun 25 16:13:51 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:13:51 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Not LSR: more people poking their noses where they don't belong ... Message-ID: Home  Press  Other Resources  SEMA eNews  SEMA eNews Vol. 12, No. 25 "Cash for Clunkers" Legislation Signed Into Law in Breaking News ARMO Government Affairs HRIA LTAA MPMC MRC PRO SBN SPC WTC YEN Following months of contentious debate, Congress passed cash for clunkers legislation which President Obama then signed into law. The new law includes two SEMA provisions to help lessen the programs potential impact on the automotive aftermarket and collectors. The provisions exclude vehicles 25-years old and older from the scrappage program and expand parts recycling opportunities. While lawmakers intended the program to last about one-year, they were only able to provide $1 billion in funds through the end of October 2009. Lawmakers will pursue another $3 billion later this summer to fund the program into 2010. Vehicle Scrappage Program Highlights General: Consumers may voluntarily trade in their older vehicles and receive vouchers worth up to $4,500 toward the purchase or qualified lease of a new, more fuel-efficient car or truck. Trade-in Vehicle: Must be model year 1984 or newer, in drivable condition and continuously insured and registered to the same owner for at least one year. Eligible cars and trucks must have a fuel- economy value of 18 mpg or less. Work trucks must be built before 2002. The mpg values are EPA combined city/highway ratings: www.fueleconomy.gov New Vehicle: Consumers will receive a $3,500 voucher if they buy a new passenger car that was rated at 4 mpg higher than the older vehicle, or a new pickup truck/SUV that was at least 2 mpg higher than the old truck (1 mpg for heavy-duty trucks/vans). They will receive a $4,500 if the passenger car was at least 10 mpg higher and the truck/SUV was at least 5 mpg higher (2 mpg for heavy-duty trucks/vans). The new vehicle must have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of less than $45,000. Duration: Lawmakers authorized $1 billion to issue vouchers towards the purchase or qualifying lease of a new vehicle made between July 1 November 1, 2009. Later this summer, lawmakers are expected to authorize another $3 billion to extend the program into 2010. Lawmakers estimate that the scaled-back version will spur 150,000 car sales and a $4 billion program would net 600,000 sales. Regulations: It will likely take the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) several weeks to issue regulations outlining how dealers will be reimbursed for vouchers and other program details. The NHTSA will work with the EPA to compile a comprehensive list of eligible trade-in vehicles, by make and model, to be posted on the Internet and made available through other means. Questions? Contact Stuart Gosswein. From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Jun 26 07:51:51 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:51:51 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] "Sanctioning Bodies" Message-ID: <20090626135110.8EE6C1878A4@autox.team.net> What do you think is a solution? Or do you think that a solution is not needed to coordinate record rules? Skip At 12:18 AM 6/26/2009, Bryan Savage wrote: >What we really need is a sanctioning body for sanctioning bodies. >It would be made up of sanctioning body Oversight Bodies. >Members of an Oversight Body would qualify for the position >by passing a very rigorous Self Importance examination. >I'm sure glad that's taken care of. Now we can get back to some >real stuff. > >Cheers all, >Bryan > > > > >NT788 at comcast.net wrote: >>Skip >> >>When the word world, gets over used, then we will have to deal with >>"universal".That should be easy to fix! >> >>Jack >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Skip Higginbotham " < saltrat @ pahrump .com> >>To: "Rich Fox" , "land-speed" >>Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:39:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >>Subject: [Land-speed] Records >> >>Rich, >>Exactly the same point that I was trying to make......apples and >>oranges.....thank you. From gmc6power at earthlink.net Fri Jun 26 08:03:30 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:03:30 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] (no subject) Message-ID: <1613417.1246025010867.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> We should model it after professional boxing....They seem to have handle on it. :) always remember LSL has the final word............................. > >What do you think is a solution? Or do you think that a solution is >not needed to coordinate record rules? > >>What we really need is a sanctioning body for sanctioning bodies. >>It would be made up of sanctioning body Oversight Bodies. >>Members of an Oversight Body would qualify for the position >>by passing a very rigorous Self Importance examination. >>I'm sure glad that's taken care of. Now we can get back to some >>real stuff. >> >> >> >>>>> >>>When the word world, gets over used, then we will have to deal with >>>"universal".That should be easy to fix! >>> >>>Rich, >>>Exactly the same point that I was trying to make......apples and >>>oranges.....thank you. From NT788 at comcast.net Fri Jun 26 08:37:14 2009 From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:37:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Land-speed] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1613417.1246025010867.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <584003220.27221246027034870.JavaMail.root@sz0044a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Please send me a little money, then vote for me.B I will fix everything!B I am very self important. Lets see where are those marbles? jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Tone" To: "Skip Higginbotham" , "Bryan Savage" , NT788 at comcast.net Cc: "land-speed" , "Rich Fox" Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 7:03:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Land-speed] We should model it after professional boxing....They seem to have handle on it. :) always remember LSL has the final word............................. > >What do you think is a solution? Or do you think that a solution is >not needed to coordinate record rules? > >>What we really need is a sanctioning body for sanctioning bodies. >>It would be made up of sanctioning body Oversight Bodies. >>Members of an Oversight Body would qualify for the position >>by passing a very rigorous Self Importance examination. >>I'm sure glad that's taken care of. Now we can get back to some >>real stuff. >> >> >> >>>>> >>>When the word world, gets over used, then we will have to deal with >>>"universal".That should be easy to fix! >>> >>>Rich, >>>Exactly the same point that I was trying to make......apples and >>>oranges.....thank you. From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Fri Jun 26 14:45:24 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:45:24 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] "Sanctioning Bodies" In-Reply-To: <4a44d283.47c2f10a.1e6c.6d83SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4a44d283.47c2f10a.1e6c.6d83SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4A453364.3020702@wildblue.net> Pardon me Skip. I've made a mistake. Back in the late '80's when we were setting records every year and made an FIA record run, I was was a very, very happy camper. LSR is a sport, and like all real sports, the participants, in my opinion, must have a strong emotional involvement. When we were competing, I had a fire in my gut that drove me like a nut. I was obsessed with making everything perfect, etc., etc.. It's been two decades and the fire has burned down to glowing coals that get stirred up every August at Bonneville. I can't passably see things from the same view point that I would have had two decades ago. I am not a participant, I'm a spectator! On this and some other subjects I will make sure I SPECTATE in the future. Again, thanks Skip, Bryan Skip Higginbotham wrote: > What do you think is a solution? Or do you think that a solution is > not needed to coordinate record rules? > > Skip From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Jun 26 15:36:06 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:36:06 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] "Sanctioning Bodies" In-Reply-To: <4A453364.3020702@wildblue.net> References: <4a44d283.47c2f10a.1e6c.6d83SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4A453364.3020702@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <20090626213525.BB848187647@autox.team.net> Bryan, Please don't just spectate! Your experiences along with many others like us are critical to the continuation of our sport. I may not have worded my questions correctly and just thought that you might have an alternative idea about how to make consistent record rules.....or not. I don't think that you have made a mistake......having fun maybe but not a mistake.(-:(-: Skip At 01:45 PM 6/26/2009, Bryan Savage wrote: >Pardon me Skip. I've made a mistake. > >Back in the late '80's when we were setting records every year and made an >FIA record run, I was was a very, very happy camper. > >LSR is a sport, and like all real sports, the participants, in my >opinion, must >have a strong emotional involvement. When we were competing, I had a fire >in my gut that drove me like a nut. I was obsessed with making >everything perfect, >etc., etc.. > >It's been two decades and the fire has burned down to glowing coals that get >stirred up every August at Bonneville. > >I can't passably see things from the same view point that I would have had >two decades ago. I am not a participant, I'm a spectator! > >On this and some other subjects I will make sure I SPECTATE in the future. > >Again, thanks Skip, >Bryan > > > > > > >Skip Higginbotham wrote: >>What do you think is a solution? Or do you think that a solution is >>not needed to coordinate record rules? >> >>Skip From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Jun 26 18:09:07 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:09:07 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Chute Question.. Message-ID: <4A456323.9040309@mayfco.com> Just sitting here wasting my time surfing the net and decided to waste your time also, lol... question relates to para 3.M. says "*all chutes SHALL be opened during inspection*." Now I have been in the tech line a few times and have actually only once been asked to launch the laundry. And I don't remember seeing a lot of others released at that time either. I could read this another way and that would be that the chute is opened and there for inspection but in a box or on the car or something for the inspectors to look at. So what is the inspector looking for? A chute in good repair? That it will launch when required? Or what. Last year I had the chute in a box on the car and nobody seemed to mind that it wasn't packed and no one asked me to do so... I like that method of inspection but what is correct? If it is to be opened using the chute release hen maybe some additional words to the paragraph? SOmething like " *all chutes shall be packed before tech inspection and released during that inspection.*" Or words to that effect. mayf From gmc6power at earthlink.net Fri Jun 26 18:41:08 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:41:08 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Chute Question.. References: <4A456323.9040309@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Personally when I inspected a car with a chute I didn't give a damn if it came out or not. I only cared if the actuator worked. If the pin moved that was good enough for me. I'm not running behind anyone's car to pull the chute out so it was really no big deal to me.............. If it saw the "string/cord/loop, or whatever you call it" stiff and I mean stiff enough to still hold the chute in with the pin removed, I would call attention to it and have them soften it up with sun block or something like that. When I would find one like that the chute would magically end up open laying on the groubd in the inspection area............. OK OK I had my way of checking by moving the pack to see it was stiff or newly packed and you can tell. You can also tell by the general condition of the vehicle too. If the fuel shut off didn't work very well the chute actuator/cable usually didn't either and that guy was in for a long inspection. the entire chute and his lines were looked at. Streamliners in tube were normaly the best. If I saw the chute in a box I would have them operate the acuator and look at the cord or loop to see if it was soft and they were good to go. At least you knew it was freshly packed. I would rather be prepared as a competitor to do WHATEVER the inspector wanted and have the tool right there to do it. I also washed my chute after every run. We always had a 5 gallon bucket and plenty of water to rinse it out and hang it from our canopy. By the time were done checking or changing the car it was dry and ready to repack.. I also wash it when I come home form El Mirge in the washing machine............Good Luck > Just sitting here wasting my time surfing the net and decided to waste > your time also, lol... question relates to para 3.M. says "*all > chutes SHALL be opened during inspection*." Now I have been in the tech > line a few times and have actually only once been asked to launch the > laundry. And I don't remember seeing a lot of others released at that > time either. I could read this another way and that would be that the > chute is opened and there for inspection but in a box or on the car or > something for the inspectors to look at. So what is the inspector > looking for? A chute in good repair? That it will launch when required? > Or what. Last year I had the chute in a box on the car and nobody seemed > to mind that it wasn't packed and no one asked me to do so... I like > that method of inspection but what is correct? If it is to be opened > using the chute release hen maybe some additional words to the > paragraph? SOmething like " *all chutes shall be packed before tech > inspection and released during that inspection.*" Or words to that > effect. > > mayf From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Jun 28 09:05:24 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:05:24 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Tranny Temp Measurement Location - Tow Truck Message-ID: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> Ok, I have a tranny temp measurement sender installed in my F250 PS 4R100 transmission. I installed it according to what a Ford tech suggested. But it is located in a fluid passage way in the side of the trans. The quesiton is: "Where IS the best place to install a temp sender for an automatic trans?" I have been considering purchasing a larger cast aluminum pan and the good ones all come with a temp sender boss. So what does the collective wisdom of the lsr community suggest? Pan or case for sender location? I have found several cast aluminum pans and holy crap are they expensive... all around 350 bucks, lol. One adds another 7.5 qts to the fluid capacity. That would make a total of nearly 22 qts! But, the cost of a diesel spec ranny is no laughing matter either.. So, if any of you ar e awake enough to think coherently tell me what ya thing on sender location.... I am barely awake... mayf From lsr_man at yahoo.com Sun Jun 28 09:59:49 2009 From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Tranny Temp Measurement Location - Tow Truck Message-ID: <894122.87188.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The pan is the location where the transmission is about to pick up its fresh supply of fluid to put it to work. It seems to me that the outlet line to the cooler is the point at which the fluid has finished doing all of it's work, and should be the hottest point in the fluid flow. But what do I know? DickJ In East Texas --- On Sun, 6/28/09, drmayf wrote: From: drmayf Subject: [Land-speed] Tranny Temp Measurement Location - Tow Truck To: "LSR" Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 10:05 AM Ok, I have a tranny temp measurement sender installed in my F250 PS 4R100 transmission. I installed it according to what a Ford tech suggested. But it is located in a fluid passage way in the side of the trans. The quesiton is: "Where IS the best place to install a temp sender for an automatic trans?" I have been considering purchasing a larger cast aluminum pan and the good ones all come with a temp sender boss. So what does the collective wisdom of the lsr community suggest? Pan or case for sender location? I have found several cast aluminum pans and holy crap are they expensive... all around 350 bucks, lol. One adds another 7.5 qts to the fluid capacity. That would make a total of nearly 22 qts! But, the cost of a diesel spec ranny is no laughing matter either.. So, if any of you ar e awake enough to think coherently tell me what ya thing on sender location.... I am barely awake... mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as lsr_man at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Sun Jun 28 11:47:48 2009 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:47:48 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Tranny Temp Measurement Location - Tow Truck References: <894122.87188.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c9f818$8e7e3870$6401a8c0@Rick> according to the folks on the Powerstroke web site that I subscribe to where you have it is the very best location. I'm installing gages in my "powersmoke" and will use that location. I can't remember though if this is pump out, or what. I also added the alum pan, that adds volume, AND use Mobil 1 synthetic fluid. A $100+ oil change once every 3 to 5 years is wayyyy better than the potential of replacing the trans. 3K to 4K depending on who does the work. The torque converter is the weak link. I replaced mine with a Banks "billet" converter as preventative maintenance, but since then learned that it is only a little better than Ford Production. There are 2 preeminent trans builders for the Ford truck. West coast is Tom Woods and in the east it is BTS or Brians Truck Stop. The name means nothing. His hardware and reputation is really good.... Rick From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Sun Jun 28 12:01:17 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:01:17 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life. PART 1 In-Reply-To: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4A47AFED.8050105@wildblue.net> Assumptions: The automatic is in good, functional condition and has been serviced regularly. An ATF temperature gage is installed in the line to the cooler as DickJ suggested. The design is not a piece of junk like the TH-200. It is being used on fairly surfaces, not the Rincon Trail. Facts: 98% of the heat in ATF comes from the Torque Converter when it is Torque Converting. Petroleum ATF starts degrading at a bit less that 300 degrees. PAO Synthetics like Mobil1 , Amzoil and a few others, at above 425 degrees. Modern Automatic soft parts can tolerate 350 degrees. A Torque Converter is a simple "Fluid Coupling" above a certain RPM, primarily determined by stall speed and engine torque curve. For large production road cars and trucks, 2500-3500 RPM. Above this RPM it generates about 4-6% of the heat going into the ATF. Plan: keep ATF at a safe temperature. How: A) Stop heating the oil. B) Remove all excess heat as needed. A) It's easy with modern automatics, the driver does it. (cheap) If the automatic has a converter clutch, the driver is home free. All he needs to do is operate the shift lever to keep the RPM up high enough so that the clutch is always engaged. Clutch engaged = no torque converter = no heat. If it's an older unit, you do the same thing but you need to watch the tach to KEEP engine RPM high enough to always operate the converter in it's "Fluid Coupling" mode. I used this method with my 1965 Dodge A-100 truck (A-747). After 35 years and 187,000 miles I gave it to a friend. It needed new soft parts but worked fine if you let it run for a few minutes if it had been setting for a few days. The only parts that were replaced were the front oil seal when I re-installed the engine and 3 or 4 filters. Note: I would always use petroleum ATF in an untested, by you and your application, transmission. A clutch (or band) can slip because of a defect and, for a few seconds heat to over 300 degrees in spots. You won't notice it, but it will fry a small bit of petroleum ATF. You can detect this on the dipstick with your nose. If it's Real PAO Synthetic (Mobile1, etc.) the heat won't bother it and it will smell perfect. Not good. Continued in part 2 From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Sun Jun 28 12:03:40 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:03:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life. PART 2 In-Reply-To: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <4A47B07C.4040302@wildblue.net> B) Oil to water or air heat exchangers big enough to do the job well. The method I like the best bypasses the production cooler in the radiator because if you are going to use the inefficient torque converter for gear reduction, you will really be working the engine hard. Back in the '60's when Ed Tradup was running a digger, he had an old International tow truck that he had stuffed a big GM V-8 with TH-400 into. For a cooler he put a big AC condenser from the same car between the frame rail's. It worked like a champ, not the best location but it was so big it didn't matter. If you live where it gets real cold, below zero, I would install a thermostatic cooler bypass valve in the system. As far as ATF, I believe that standard petroleum ATF is fine for normal, average, production automatics. one exception, in my opinion, is very hot or cold weather. When it's zero or below, Real PAO Synthetic flows so much better at very low temperatures it would be worth the significant expense. When it's your towing in 110 heat, the Synthetic is happy as a clam at 275-300 degrees. The above are MY thoughts, ideas and OPINIONS based on being interested in this problem for over 40 years. Caution!! There may be new, modern and far better whys of doing some of these things today, so look around. Stay cool folks, Bryan From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Mon Jun 29 06:48:46 2009 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:48:46 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> <4A47B07C.4040302@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <000b01c9f8b7$f20901f0$6401a8c0@Rick> Thanks Brian Its always nice to see some sage advice. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Savage" To: Cc: "LSR" Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 > B) Oil to water or air heat exchangers big enough to do the job well. > The method I like the best bypasses the production cooler in the radiator > because if you are going to use the inefficient torque converter for gear > reduction, you will really be working the engine hard. > > Back in the '60's when Ed Tradup was running a digger, he had an old > International tow truck that he had stuffed a big GM V-8 with TH-400 into. > For a cooler he put a big AC condenser from the same car between the > frame rail's. It worked like a champ, not the best location but it was so > big > it didn't matter. > If you live where it gets real cold, below zero, I would install a > thermostatic > cooler bypass valve in the system. > > As far as ATF, I believe that standard petroleum ATF is fine for normal, > average, > production automatics. one exception, in my opinion, is very hot or cold > weather. > When it's zero or below, Real PAO Synthetic flows so much better at very > low > temperatures it would be worth the significant expense. When it's your > towing > in 110 heat, the Synthetic is happy as a clam at 275-300 degrees. > > > The above are MY thoughts, ideas and OPINIONS based on being interested > in this problem for over 40 years. > Caution!! There may be new, modern and far better whys of doing some of > these > things today, so look around. > > Stay cool folks, > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as rickbyrnes at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jun 29 07:39:57 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:39:57 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 In-Reply-To: <000b01c9f8b7$f20901f0$6401a8c0@Rick> References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> <4A47B07C.4040302@wildblue.net> <000b01c9f8b7$f20901f0$6401a8c0@Rick> Message-ID: <4A48C42D.7000201@mayfco.com> Hey! Rick, you calling Bryan and old man? mayf Rick Byrnes wrote: > Thanks Brian > Its always nice to see some sage advice. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Savage" > > To: > Cc: "LSR" > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:03 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long > life.PART 2 > > >> B) Oil to water or air heat exchangers big enough to do the job well. >> The method I like the best bypasses the production cooler in the >> radiator >> because if you are going to use the inefficient torque converter for >> gear >> reduction, you will really be working the engine hard. >> >> Back in the '60's when Ed Tradup was running a digger, he had an old >> International tow truck that he had stuffed a big GM V-8 with TH-400 >> into. >> For a cooler he put a big AC condenser from the same car between the >> frame rail's. It worked like a champ, not the best location but it >> was so big >> it didn't matter. >> If you live where it gets real cold, below zero, I would install a >> thermostatic >> cooler bypass valve in the system. >> >> As far as ATF, I believe that standard petroleum ATF is fine for >> normal, average, >> production automatics. one exception, in my opinion, is very hot or >> cold weather. >> When it's zero or below, Real PAO Synthetic flows so much better at >> very low >> temperatures it would be worth the significant expense. When it's >> your towing >> in 110 heat, the Synthetic is happy as a clam at 275-300 degrees. >> >> >> The above are MY thoughts, ideas and OPINIONS based on being interested >> in this problem for over 40 years. >> Caution!! There may be new, modern and far better whys of doing some >> of these >> things today, so look around. >> >> Stay cool folks, >> Bryan >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Land-speed mailing list >> >> You are subscribed as rickbyrnes at comcast.net >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Mon Jun 29 09:10:44 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:10:44 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] any racers from Tasmania? non LSR References: Message-ID: <2E7844FF-F5CC-41FD-856B-01CA5D665ABB@comcast.net> > http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=96318358735&h=ACb24&u=ONTeQ&ref=nf From wester6935 at comcast.net Mon Jun 29 09:30:03 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:30:03 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Auto interest, non LSR Message-ID: John, a 150 Club member, is in England on business and shot a couple of photos from his hotel balcony. They are too dark to really see much but he added this comment to explain why the interest. Here's his comment: I know it's a horrible picture - I took it from the balcony of my hotel in London - but check out the license plate. It's a Dubai plate. Then read the article below. Who says that a license plate can't be worth more than the car it's on... BTW, the car is a McLaren SLR 722. Only 150 made and about $480,000 new. http://www.carreg.co.uk/number_plates/get_news/150 (DUBAI, May 11, 2008) Emirates Auction holds the record for the top ten most expensive license plates sold worldwide, after Plate 9 sold for a record #2,150,000 at Saturday's auction in Abu Dhabi. "We now dominate the Top Ten chart after bumping off Hong Kong's six- million-dirham Plate 9," announced Abdulla Matar Al Mannaei, Managing Director of Emirates Auction, which organizes the Code 5 license plate auctions on behalf of the General Directorate of Abu Dhabi Police. Emirates Auction sold the most expensive license plate in the world  Dh52.2 million Plate "1"  at its Feb. 16 auction. At Dh15.4 million, Plate 9 now ranks in third place, after Plate 6 which sold for Dh15.2million. Number "9" was the fifth single-digit number to go under the hammer, and beat out Plate "6" (Dh15 million) and Plate "7" (Dh11 million), despite being a higher number. At Saturday's auction, held at Emirates Palace Hotel, Plate 29 sold for Dh 4million, Plate 87 for Dh2.45 million, and Plates 93 and 52 for Dh2.2 million each. Rounding out the list of million-dollar-plus plates was Plate 300, at Dh1.08 million. "The strong interest and the increasing prices are proof that license plates continue to be a great investment," said Mannaei. In total, the auction raised more than Dh 52 million from the sale of 100 plates and was attended by 450 bidders. In one year, Emirates Auction has raised more than Dh420 million from the sale of 794 plates in nine charity auctions. All proceeds go towards building a world-class emergency and trauma care center for victims of road accidents and other debilitating conditions, as announced by H.H. Major-General Sheikh Saif bin Zayed Al Nahyan, the UAE's Minister of Interior. Hong Kong's plate "9" was snapped up by tycoon Albert Yeung for HK$13 million (Dh 6 million) in 1994, making it the most expensive plate sold there. The auctions are organized by the world-renown Emirates Auction on behalf of the General Directorate of Abu Dhabi Police and sponsored by Abu Dhabi Islamic Bank and Emirates Palace. From wester6935 at comcast.net Mon Jun 29 09:33:04 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:33:04 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 In-Reply-To: <4A48C42D.7000201@mayfco.com> References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> <4A47B07C.4040302@wildblue.net> <000b01c9f8b7$f20901f0$6401a8c0@Rick> <4A48C42D.7000201@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <08A21CEE-9291-4919-A560-3D25B2DDA5AD@comcast.net> mayf, Those of us who are your elders deserve SOME resprct. Wes On Jun 29, 2009, at 7:39 AM, drmayf wrote: > Hey! Rick, you calling Bryan and old man? > mayf > Rick Byrnes wrote: > >> Thanks Brian >> Its always nice to see some sage advice. >> >> Rick >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Savage" > > >> To: >> Cc: "LSR" >> Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a >> long life.PART 2 >> >> >>> B) Oil to water or air heat exchangers big enough to do the job >>> well. >>> The method I like the best bypasses the production cooler in the >>> radiator >>> because if you are going to use the inefficient torque converter >>> for gear >>> reduction, you will really be working the engine hard. >>> >>> Back in the '60's when Ed Tradup was running a digger, he had an >>> old >>> International tow truck that he had stuffed a big GM V-8 with >>> TH-400 into. >>> For a cooler he put a big AC condenser from the same car between the >>> frame rail's. It worked like a champ, not the best location but it >>> was so big >>> it didn't matter. >>> If you live where it gets real cold, below zero, I would install a >>> thermostatic >>> cooler bypass valve in the system. >>> >>> As far as ATF, I believe that standard petroleum ATF is fine for >>> normal, average, >>> production automatics. one exception, in my opinion, is very hot >>> or cold weather. >>> When it's zero or below, Real PAO Synthetic flows so much better >>> at very low >>> temperatures it would be worth the significant expense. When it's >>> your towing >>> in 110 heat, the Synthetic is happy as a clam at 275-300 degrees. >>> >>> >>> The above are MY thoughts, ideas and OPINIONS based on being >>> interested >>> in this problem for over 40 years. >>> Caution!! There may be new, modern and far better whys of doing >>> some of these >>> things today, so look around. >>> >>> Stay cool folks, >>> Bryan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> >>> Land-speed mailing list >>> >>> You are subscribed as rickbyrnes at comcast.net >>> >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Mon Jun 29 09:36:45 2009 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:36:45 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 In-Reply-To: <08A21CEE-9291-4919-A560-3D25B2DDA5AD@comcast.net> Message-ID: Elder to Dr. Mayfield? Maybe Moses . . . . -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wester Potter Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 9:33 AM To: Larry Mayfield; LAND SPEED LIST Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 mayf, Those of us who are your elders deserve SOME resprct. Wes On Jun 29, 2009, at 7:39 AM, drmayf wrote: > Hey! Rick, you calling Bryan and old man? > mayf > Rick Byrnes wrote: > >> Thanks Brian >> Its always nice to see some sage advice. >> >> Rick >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Savage" > > >> To: >> Cc: "LSR" >> Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a >> long life.PART 2 >> >> >>> B) Oil to water or air heat exchangers big enough to do the job >>> well. >>> The method I like the best bypasses the production cooler in the >>> radiator >>> because if you are going to use the inefficient torque converter >>> for gear >>> reduction, you will really be working the engine hard. >>> >>> Back in the '60's when Ed Tradup was running a digger, he had an >>> old >>> International tow truck that he had stuffed a big GM V-8 with >>> TH-400 into. >>> For a cooler he put a big AC condenser from the same car between the >>> frame rail's. It worked like a champ, not the best location but it >>> was so big >>> it didn't matter. >>> If you live where it gets real cold, below zero, I would install a >>> thermostatic >>> cooler bypass valve in the system. >>> >>> As far as ATF, I believe that standard petroleum ATF is fine for >>> normal, average, >>> production automatics. one exception, in my opinion, is very hot >>> or cold weather. >>> When it's zero or below, Real PAO Synthetic flows so much better >>> at very low >>> temperatures it would be worth the significant expense. When it's >>> your towing >>> in 110 heat, the Synthetic is happy as a clam at 275-300 degrees. >>> >>> >>> The above are MY thoughts, ideas and OPINIONS based on being >>> interested >>> in this problem for over 40 years. >>> Caution!! There may be new, modern and far better whys of doing >>> some of these >>> things today, so look around. >>> >>> Stay cool folks, >>> Bryan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> >>> Land-speed mailing list >>> >>> You are subscribed as rickbyrnes at comcast.net >>> >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From Rick at RBMotorsports.com Mon Jun 29 10:29:49 2009 From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:29:49 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com><4A47B07C.4040302@wildblue.net> <000b01c9f8b7$f20901f0$6401a8c0@Rick> <4A48C42D.7000201@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <001d01c9f8d6$d3224ca0$6401a8c0@Rick> ABSOLUTELY NOT Well, maybe. Bryan if your older than 66 (thats me) your OLD. (boy i wish we could attach photos. I got a good one.....) From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Mon Jun 29 10:38:49 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:38:49 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 In-Reply-To: <001d01c9f8d6$d3224ca0$6401a8c0@Rick> References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com><4A47B07C.4040302@wildblue.net><000b01c9f8b7$f20901f0$6401a8c0@Rick> <4A48C42D.7000201@mayfco.com> <001d01c9f8d6$d3224ca0$6401a8c0@Rick> Message-ID: <20AD01457EC144EA83C9BF3E2D0CC0E0@GlenPC> I ain't admitting to anything. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Byrnes" To: Cc: "LSR" Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 > ABSOLUTELY NOT Well, maybe. Bryan if your older than 66 (thats me) > your OLD. > (boy i wish we could attach photos. I got a good one.....) > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Mon Jun 29 11:27:16 2009 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:27:16 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 In-Reply-To: <20AD01457EC144EA83C9BF3E2D0CC0E0@GlenPC> References: <4A4786B4.8050305@mayfco.com> <4A47B07C.4040302@wildblue.net> <000b01c9f8b7$f20901f0$6401a8c0@Rick> <4A48C42D.7000201@mayfco.com> <001d01c9f8d6$d3224ca0$6401a8c0@Rick> <20AD01457EC144EA83C9BF3E2D0CC0E0@GlenPC> Message-ID: <20090629172725.BCA70187A25@autox.team.net> Me too!!! Skip At 09:38 AM 6/29/2009, speedtimer at beyondbb.com wrote: >I ain't admitting to anything. >Glen >----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Byrnes" >To: >Cc: "LSR" >Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:29 AM >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a >long life.PART 2 > > >>ABSOLUTELY NOT Well, maybe. Bryan if your older than 66 (thats >>me) your OLD. >>(boy i wish we could attach photos. I got a good one.....) From kturk at adelphia.net Mon Jun 29 14:37:55 2009 From: kturk at adelphia.net (Keith Turk) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:37:55 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Salt updates? Message-ID: <6E496E5A842040379C52C918A90FAC5A@keithhrijwmm4p> any one have any current updates on the conditions? thanks... Keith From wester6935 at comcast.net Mon Jun 29 14:37:54 2009 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:37:54 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] speaking of OLD ... Message-ID: <7F8048D3-F49A-451F-9A73-031D2155D09A@comcast.net> Fwd: Great obit from Salt Lake Tribune Begin forwarded message: > From: "Ron Christensen" > Date: June 29, 2009 12:53:38 PM MDT > To: , , "Stieg Svard" >, "Steve Johnson" , "Jon Wennerberg" >, , , "'Barrie Strachan'" > , "'Dale Emery'" , "'Robert > Green'" , "'Peter Crandall'" > > Subject: FW: Great obit from Salt Lake Tribune > > > > > > Louis Clyde Brown > Louis Clyde Brown 10/19/1929 ~ 6/21/2009 Years ago sitting at a > funeral, Lou leaned over and said, "When I die, tell them 'Shit > Happens.'"Louis Clyde Brown passed away June 21, 2009. Known as Pops > to his family, Lou lived a life of thought and action. Born October > 19, 1929 - 10 days before the stock market crash, he grew up amongst > scarcity but never knew it. He met Zoe Ann Wiley, the love of his > life, while skiing at Alta. They lived a full life together until > her passing in September of 2005. Their children, Kari Karas, Cori, > Toby (Janet) and Dain (Michelle) grew up snow-skiing, boating, water- > skiing, camping, motorcycling, dune buggy'n and generally out trying > every kind of exciting thing life has to offer. Among the favorites: > Lake Powell, Bear Lake and Big Sand Mountain come to mind. Days > sipping bourbon and coke waiting for the water to get smooth. Nights > around the campfire telling stories. It doesn't get much better than > that. Lou spent his working life on the Salt Lake City Fire > Department. He retired with the #2 Badge, while building the airport > fire operations. The fire department was an extended family for Lou, > Zoe and the kids. Many wonderful friends came from those years of > service. To be honest, Lou could be an ass. One friend called him a > "true intellectual," since he couldn't let any comment pass without > a challenge. To some this was a source of annoyance, to others a > source of strength. Whatever he was, Lou had an impact on people. > He'll be missed and not soon forgotten. The next time you think > about trying something new or something that might scare you a bit. > Go ahead and do it. And if you can, take a moment and think of Lou. > He'd like that. If you want to take a moment now to remember him, > raise your glass and say, "Lou. Shit definitely happens." A party > will be held to celebrate his life and tell lies about him and the > things he did on July 11th from 4-6 p.m. at Dain's house at 8813 > South Renegade Road (2285 East), Sandy. Join us if you can. From yesford at clear.net.nz Mon Jun 29 16:06:41 2009 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:06:41 +1200 Subject: [Land-speed] Salt updates? References: <6E496E5A842040379C52C918A90FAC5A@keithhrijwmm4p> Message-ID: <9341E10D5D0746E390F5BE3489076C7A@ChrisHarrisPC> > any one have any current updates on the conditions? > > thanks... > > Keith Although not attending this year, was wondering about the salts condition for Speedweek myself Keith. Chris H................NZed. From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Mon Jun 29 17:54:03 2009 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:54:03 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Salt updates? In-Reply-To: <9341E10D5D0746E390F5BE3489076C7A@ChrisHarrisPC> References: <6E496E5A842040379C52C918A90FAC5A@keithhrijwmm4p> <9341E10D5D0746E390F5BE3489076C7A@ChrisHarrisPC> Message-ID: <3AFD1883-6820-4390-98BE-0070DE7A1121@nancyandjon.org> Here's the topic thread on landracing.com. The thread is about two pages long right now -- you might as well read it from the top to get the "nuances". http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5420.0.html Jon On Jun 29, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Chris Harris wrote: >> any one have any current updates on the conditions? >> >> thanks... >> >> Keith > > Although not attending this year, was wondering about the salts > condition for Speedweek myself Keith. > Chris H................NZed. From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Jun 29 20:05:32 2009 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:05:32 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Top Gear on BBCA -- Dish Network Message-ID: <4A4972EC.1080504@wildblue.net> Program, Top Gear, on BBCA runs some cars at Bonneville. It's a real Gas .......... Bryan From adin at frontier.net Mon Jun 29 20:58:36 2009 From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:58:36 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Top Gear on BBCA -- Dish Network References: <4A4972EC.1080504@wildblue.net> Message-ID: http://www.topgear.com/us/videos/more/salt-flat-racing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Savage" To: "List Land Speed" Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Top Gear on BBCA -- Dish Network > Program, Top Gear, on BBCA runs some cars at Bonneville. > > It's a real Gas .......... > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ifixmgs at cox.net Mon Jun 29 22:22:45 2009 From: ifixmgs at cox.net (ifixmgs at cox.net) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 0:22:45 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Making your Tow Truck Automatic live a long life.PART 2 Message-ID: <20090630002245.C70LQ.109790.imail@eastrmwml38> Mayf, I have a 502 Bowtie/400 turbo in a 90 Suburban 1500 that doesn't go anywhere without a trailer behind it. Our biggest is an all steel 1970's era 32' Philips horse trailer that's built like a tank. With 2 big horses, and all of our equipment, it weighs in at 9500 pounds. My alum radiator (junk yard special) was for a stick shift and my budget for a Jegs trans cooler was blown. I found a 2" thick room-sized AC condenser with 3/8" tubes. I mounted it up front and horizontally on the right inner fender with a small Nipondenso cooling fan mounted on the underside pulling cooler air up from the road. The trans fluid (regular petro) has stayed clean, bright red and smelling like new. As I recall from SAE notes when ATF operates at 200*f for any length of time service life goes to half of Mfgr normal change sched. And I'm pretty sure it gets cut in half with subsequent 20-25*f increases in op-temp. When I was crew chief on a winged supermodified car in the 70s, we had occassional engine oil temp problems on dusty, muddy tracks. I sealed a forward section of frame rail and filled it with a half gallon of water thru a screw-in shrade valve hole, and pressurized it to 50 psi. A very small 1/8" ball valve operated by a choke cable routed a length of brake tubing to the oil cooler. The far end of the tubing was pinched off tight and a line of small (maybe 1/32") holes faced the oil cooler. Toward the end of the race when the cooler would choke up with dust and dirt, and oil temp started rising way up, the driver opened the valve and sprayed down the oil cooler. It worked well enough for the effort that went into it, and didn't have any further main bearing wear problems. Same principle could be applied using a pressurized, insulated air tank with chilled water, a nitrous or 12v landscaping solenoid, and a fogging spray bar across the radiator or trans cooler, and/or on top of the trans housing for heavy uphill tows. The colder the top of the alum trans gets , the faster heat will be carried off and the less work the cooler has to do. Only problem is that going across the desert in 120 heat hauling a 5,000 pound trailer might take a water tender and one of those towable air compressors..... Mark C Back in the '60's when Ed Tradup was running a digger, he had an old > > International tow truck that he had stuffed a big GM V-8 with TH-400 into. > > For a cooler he put a big AC condenser from the same car between the > > frame rail's. It worked like a champ, not the best location but it was so > > big > > it > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Land-speed mailing list > > > > You are subscribed as rickbyrnes at comcast.net > > > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ifixmgs at cox.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfever at comcast.net Mon Jun 29 23:20:08 2009 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Kirkwood) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:20:08 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Testing Message-ID: <000601c9f942$6fe24f70$4fa6ee50$@net> Testing only. 3 postings failed to reach the list. From drmayf at mayfco.com Mon Jun 29 23:29:18 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:29:18 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Testing In-Reply-To: <000601c9f942$6fe24f70$4fa6ee50$@net> References: <000601c9f942$6fe24f70$4fa6ee50$@net> Message-ID: <4A49A2AE.7090901@mayfco.com> Kirkwood wrote: >Testing only. 3 postings failed to reach the list. >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > > > > > Did you use the email electronic stamps? Mail cannot be delivered without postage mayf From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Tue Jun 30 10:36:35 2009 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (speedtimer at beyondbb.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:36:35 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Passings Message-ID: <4691099C07CE4635809F5539971B49FC@GlenPC> Received word this morning that Gretchen Fields, wife of LSR racer George fields passed away. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family. God Speed Gretchen. From gmc6power at earthlink.net Tue Jun 30 11:16:56 2009 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:16:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] FW: Motorcycle Ride on The Autobahn.. Message-ID: <24583926.1246382220989.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type video/x-ms-wmv which had a name of meinneuesbike.wmv] From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Jun 30 11:35:26 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:35:26 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] FW: Motorcycle Ride on The Autobahn.. In-Reply-To: <24583926.1246382220989.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24583926.1246382220989.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A4A4CDE.6010004@mayfco.com> James Tone wrote: >[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type video/x-ms-wmv which had a name of meinneuesbike.wmv] >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > > > > > 185.7 mph..... mayf