From jgmagoo at comcast.net Mon Sep 1 14:03:49 2008 From: jgmagoo at comcast.net (jgmagoo at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:03:49 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Wencover AFB Web Site>From>JGMagoo Message-ID: <090120082003.2182.48BC4AA50005AFDE0000088622058861720101090E030906@comcast.net> An interesting historical web site for those of you who may have an interest in the Wendover Air Force Base, home of the WWII B-29 bombers that dropped the atomic bombs on Japan. http://www.airfields-freeman.com/UT/Airfields_UT_NW.htm#wendover From neil at dbelltech.com Mon Sep 1 14:16:38 2008 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:16:38 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Wencover AFB Web Site>From>JGMagoo In-Reply-To: <090120082003.2182.48BC4AA50005AFDE0000088622058861720101090E030906@comcast.net> References: <090120082003.2182.48BC4AA50005AFDE0000088622058861720101090E030906@comcast.net> Message-ID: Interesting-- thanks. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jgmagoo at comcast.net Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 1:04 PM To: land-speed-digest Subject: [Land-speed] Wencover AFB Web Site>From>JGMagoo An interesting historical web site for those of you who may have an interest in the Wendover Air Force Base, home of the WWII B-29 bombers that dropped the atomic bombs on Japan. http://www.airfields-freeman.com/UT/Airfields_UT_NW.htm#wendover Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Mon Sep 1 18:00:09 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 18:00:09 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Wencover AFB Web Site>From>JGMagoo In-Reply-To: <090120082003.2182.48BC4AA50005AFDE0000088622058861720101090E030906@comcast.net> References: <090120082003.2182.48BC4AA50005AFDE0000088622058861720101090E030906@comcast.net> Message-ID: <121E38E2-A9BF-435C-BF35-8BA09867222B@comcast.net> There is an Air Show scheduled the Saturday of World of Speed, September 20, at the Wendover airfield. Anyone who enters their car in the Car Show that goes along with the air show gets in free and has a prime seat for the whole show. Contact me if you are interested and I'll steer you to the right people. Wes On Sep 1, 2008, at 2:03 PM, jgmagoo at comcast.net wrote: > An interesting historical web site for those of you who may have an > interest in the Wendover Air Force Base, home of the WWII B-29 > bombers that dropped the atomic bombs on Japan. > > http://www.airfields-freeman.com/UT/Airfields_UT_NW.htm#wendover > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From lona at finishlinecoatings.com Tue Sep 2 11:30:09 2008 From: lona at finishlinecoatings.com (lona jensen) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:30:09 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Pre entry fee for Speed Week Message-ID: <48BD7821.4040004@finishlinecoatings.com> Hi Guys Looking for a pre-entry for World of Speed. Please either call Russ @ 503 659 4278 or e-mail at russ at finishlinecoatings.com Thanks for your time. Russ Meeks From gmc6power at earthlink.net Tue Sep 2 12:16:03 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Pre entry fee for Speed Week Message-ID: <30872164.1220379363844.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> They haven't been mailed out yet...........jd >Subject: [Land-speed] Pre entry fee for Speed Week > >Hi Guys >Looking for a pre-entry for World of Speed. Please either call Russ @ >503 659 4278 or e-mail at russ at finishlinecoatings.com >Thanks for your time. >Russ Meeks From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Sep 2 13:15:13 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:15:13 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Pre entry fee for Speed Week In-Reply-To: <48BD7821.4040004@finishlinecoatings.com> References: <48BD7821.4040004@finishlinecoatings.com> Message-ID: Try contacting Ellen Wilkinson at 801-485-2662 or at sales at saltflats.com Wes On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:30 AM, lona jensen wrote: > Hi Guys > Looking for a pre-entry for World of Speed. Please either call Russ @ > 503 659 4278 or e-mail at russ at finishlinecoatings.com > Thanks for your time. > Russ Meeks > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Sep 2 13:20:31 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:20:31 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Pre entry fee for Speed Week In-Reply-To: <30872164.1220379363844.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <30872164.1220379363844.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <87F6EFED-DDC4-45C6-8A06-C3C392466AF5@comcast.net> World of Speed pre-entries were due in July. I'm assuming Russ wants one at the reduced $350 July 15 deadline rate if possible rather than paying the $525 fee required after that date. Wes On Sep 2, 2008, at 12:16 PM, James Tone wrote: > They haven't been mailed out yet...........jd > >> Subject: [Land-speed] Pre entry fee for Speed Week >> >> Hi Guys >> Looking for a pre-entry for World of Speed. Please either call Russ @ >> 503 659 4278 or e-mail at russ at finishlinecoatings.com >> Thanks for your time. >> Russ Meeks > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From gmc6power at earthlink.net Tue Sep 2 13:27:33 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:27:33 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Pre entry fee for Speed Week Message-ID: <25012154.1220383654582.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Opp's sorry I thought it said World Finals. I hope he gets there and sets a new record so I won't need to bring my Modified nose to World Finals..........Good Luck Russ > >World of Speed pre-entries were due in July. I'm assuming Russ wants >one at the reduced $350 July 15 deadline rate if possible rather than >paying the $525 fee required after that date. > >Wes >>> >>> Hi Guys >>> Looking for a pre-entry for World of Speed. Please either call Russ @ >>> 503 659 4278 or e-mail at russ at finishlinecoatings.com >>> Thanks for your time. >>> Russ Meeks From lona at finishlinecoatings.com Wed Sep 3 11:11:29 2008 From: lona at finishlinecoatings.com (lona jensen) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:11:29 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] World of Speed pre entry Message-ID: <48BEC541.9090602@finishlinecoatings.com> Thanks everyone... Ellen called and it's all taken care of!!! Thanks for your time once again Russ Meeks From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Sep 3 11:40:49 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:40:49 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Skids and Spins... Message-ID: <48BECC21.1070606@mayfco.com> So far I have managed to get sideways twice. It is funny that both times were after I moved the radiator into a atank of water in the passenger compartment. I looked at the polar momen of interia (PMOI) and what it can and cannot do or help and here is what I have come up with. Long wheel base cars or even producion cars, have a high polar moment of inertia. Short wheel base cars have a lower polar moment. A high PMOI means the vehicle is resistant to starting a skid or spin but conversely harder to stop one when it gets going. A lower PMOI means that it is easier to get a skid or spin started but far easier to recovery from. So I have a short wheel base car, I reduced the PMOI by moving the radiator and water to a tank in the middle of the car making it more susceptable to a skid. But because the PMOI is smaller now, it means that I can recover it quicker. All verified by the fact that in both cases the skids never turned into full on spins but were caught and corrected befoe the car actually went around There are quite a number of other factors involved as well, such as the control auhority excerted by the front wheels on the salt, by the location of the center of pressure and the actual amount of aero force trying to turn the car sideways. In the next few monhs I am going to try and develop a model that can be generally used by lsr folk to try and get some understanding on how their car handles and how it gets into the situation of a skid or spin to begin with. Since I am older than dirt, it is taking me a bit longer to rouse up enough brain cells to attack this issue, but hang tight... I wil try and include the effects of the center of pressure, the aero forces involved, the center of gravity, wheel base, corner weights, the forces exerted by teh contact patches, and the PMOI. anyone have comments regarding tis topic lemme know in a pm, as no need to bother the entire list mayf From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Wed Sep 3 12:13:58 2008 From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:13:58 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Skids and Spins... In-Reply-To: <48BECC21.1070606@mayfco.com> References: <48BECC21.1070606@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF39BCF@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> For a little visual examination of the phenomenon ..... http://www.landspeedracingvideo.com/videos/spins.wmv And here http://www.landspeedracingvideo.com/videos/spin123.wmv From 23.weldon at comcast.net Wed Sep 3 12:21:30 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:21:30 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Skids and Spins... References: <48BECC21.1070606@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <002a01c90df1$e9ea0fc0$6401a8c0@S> Good idea, Mayf....I hope more people than you and I will be interested in this subject. Sumner; you listening here? Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:40 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Skids and Spins... (snip) In the next few monhs I am going to try and develop a > model that can be generally used by lsr folk to try and get some > understanding on how their car handles and how it gets into the > situation of a skid or spin to begin with. Since I am older than dirt, > it is taking me a bit longer to rouse up enough brain cells to attack > this issue, but hang tight... > > I wil try and include the effects of the center of pressure, the aero > forces involved, the center of gravity, wheel base, corner weights, the > forces exerted by teh contact patches, and the PMOI. > > anyone have comments regarding tis topic lemme know in a pm, as no need > to bother the entire list > mayf From gary_ellen at msn.com Wed Sep 3 14:21:18 2008 From: gary_ellen at msn.com (Ellen Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:21:18 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] World of Speed Entries Message-ID: Hi, just wanted to let you know that J.T. (of the blue hair fame) and his crew are all fine. They did have to evacuate New Orleans and have lost about 2 weeks of wrenching time due to Gustaf. This means I have another 2 pre-entries to sell. So if anyone is interested please get back to me either direct email or call, 801-485-2662. We do have a meeting tonight so I may not be accessible later tonight. Ellen Gary & Ellen Wilkinson Utah Salt Flats Racing Association World of Speed Sept. 17 - 20, 2008 www.saltflats.com -See you on the Salt! From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Sep 3 14:26:36 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:26:36 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device Message-ID: <48BEF2FC.9080709@mayfco.com> I have seen somwhere a small lever type weighing device used on race cars. It has a stand and a lever that its under the rim of a wheel. Whenyoupush the lever down and raise the wheel i provides weight of that corner of the vehicle. I have a name of Wacho but I cannot find that name.. anybody know of a similar product and where to look at one? mayf From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Wed Sep 3 14:32:15 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:32:15 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device References: <48BEF2FC.9080709@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <000a01c90e04$290bff80$6501a8c0@Glens> Mayf. As close to the LV speedway I'll bet someone there has scales or can help you Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:26 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device >I have seen somwhere a small lever type weighing device used on race > cars. It has a stand and a lever that its under the rim of a wheel. > Whenyoupush the lever down and raise the wheel i provides weight of that > corner of the vehicle. > > I have a name of Wacho but I cannot find that name.. anybody know of a > similar product and where to look at one? > > mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 1963 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From jolylance at earthlink.net Wed Sep 3 15:42:52 2008 From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:42:52 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF Message-ID: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> Hi List; I'm having a problem with a snow blower engine--its a Craftsman 5.5 HP OHV 4 cycle engine. It has a choke and a small primer button and an electric starter. Specified starting procedure is wide open throttle setting, full choke, and no primer strokes when temp is above 50F. It will not start or fire at all using this procedure. If I turn the choke completely off and hit the primer button once or twice it will fire for a few revs, but not long enough for me to close the choke. After that it will not fire again regardless of choke setting or amount of priming even when cranked until the thermal protection circut cuts in and shuts down the electric starter, so I don't think its getting flooded. After letting it sit for a few hours, I can repeat the above miserable results. Have a new plug with a strong spark, the fuel tank has completly drained and has fresh gas, cleaned out the carb float bowl, the gravity fed float bowl fills with gas so the tank to carb feed hose is not blocked. The carb mount bolts are tight. Anybody have any suggestions ? Thanks; Lance From neil at dbelltech.com Wed Sep 3 15:56:15 2008 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:56:15 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF In-Reply-To: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> References: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: Fuel pump? Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of joseph lance Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:43 PM To: LAND-SPEED @ AUTOX.TEAM .NET Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF Hi List; I'm having a problem with a snow blower engine--its a Craftsman 5.5 HP OHV 4 cycle engine. It has a choke and a small primer button and an electric starter. Specified starting procedure is wide open throttle setting, full choke, and no primer strokes when temp is above 50F. It will not start or fire at all using this procedure. If I turn the choke completely off and hit the primer button once or twice it will fire for a few revs, but not long enough for me to close the choke. After that it will not fire again regardless of choke setting or amount of priming even when cranked until the thermal protection circut cuts in and shuts down the electric starter, so I don't think its getting flooded. After letting it sit for a few hours, I can repeat the above miserable results. Have a new plug with a strong spark, the fuel tank has completly drained and has fresh gas, cleaned out the carb float bowl, the gravity fed float bowl fills with gas so the tank to carb feed hose is not blocked. The carb mount bolts are tight. Anybody have any suggestions ? Thanks; Lance Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From gary_ellen at msn.com Wed Sep 3 15:58:38 2008 From: gary_ellen at msn.com (Ellen Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:58:38 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device References: <48BEF2FC.9080709@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Mayf I think I have seen them advertised in Corky Stockham's Parts Peddler, lots of circle track stuff. My last issue is hiding from me. Sherline makes a tongue weight scale that might lend itself to being adapted for this use. Gary W ----- Original Message ----- From: drmayf To: LSR Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:26 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device I have seen somwhere a small lever type weighing device used on race cars. It has a stand and a lever that its under the rim of a wheel. Whenyoupush the lever down and raise the wheel i provides weight of that corner of the vehicle. I have a name of Wacho but I cannot find that name.. anybody know of a similar product and where to look at one? mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as gary_ellen at msn.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From 23.weldon at comcast.net Wed Sep 3 16:06:59 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:06:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF References: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: <005701c90e11$64dce1c0$6401a8c0@S> Have you got decent compression? Another thought is to try Weldon's Miracle Method for procrastinating on lawn mower tuneups. --Starting fluid-- Sounds like the timing is retarded. But I'd expect a motor like that to be pretty resistant to such frailties. Does this motor have a fixed timing setup? Most small motors have a magnet in the flywheel which is keyed to the crankshaft. Keys usually don't fail. How about the connection from cam to crankshaft? A couple of gears or something else? Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph lance" To: "LAND-SPEED @ AUTOX.TEAM .NET" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:42 PM Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF > Hi List; (snip) > Have a new plug with a strong spark, the fuel tank has completly drained and > has fresh gas, cleaned out the carb float bowl, the gravity fed float bowl > fills with gas so the tank to carb feed hose is not blocked. The carb mount > bolts are tight. > Anybody have any suggestions ? > Thanks; Lance From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Wed Sep 3 16:41:01 2008 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:41:01 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF Message-ID: <49406.1220481661@nancyandjon.org> It's a snowthrower -- why are you trying to run it in jungle-high temps (well, 50F is hot for a snowthrower...)? No fuel pump - gravity feed, right? The key that holds the flywheel/fan on the crank might have failed and farkled the timing -- look there. The cam gear won't get out of time with the crank unless you've been insdie there, but the key can break if you've hit something that instantly stopped the crank from turning (picked up a big stone in the auger and the pin in the drive did not b reak as it should have). Jon On Wed Sep 3 17:06 , "Ed Weldon" sent: >Have you got decent compression? >Another thought is to try Weldon's Miracle Method for procrastinating on >lawn mower tuneups. --Starting fluid-- >Sounds like the timing is retarded. But I'd expect a motor like that to be >pretty resistant to such frailties. >Does this motor have a fixed timing setup? Most small motors have a magnet >in the flywheel which is keyed to the crankshaft. Keys usually don't fail. >How about the connection from cam to crankshaft? A couple of gears or >something else? >Ed Weldon > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "joseph lance" jolylance at earthlink.net> >To: "LAND-SPEED @ AUTOX.TEAM .NET" land-speed at autox.team.net> >Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:42 PM >Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF >> Hi List; >(snip) >> Have a new plug with a strong spark, the fuel tank has completly drained >and >> has fresh gas, cleaned out the carb float bowl, the gravity fed float bowl >> fills with gas so the tank to carb feed hose is not blocked. The carb >mount >> bolts are tight. >> Anybody have any suggestions ? >> Thanks; Lance >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From jdincau at qnet.com Wed Sep 3 17:11:20 2008 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:11:20 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device In-Reply-To: <000a01c90e04$290bff80$6501a8c0@Glens> References: <48BEF2FC.9080709@mayfco.com> <000a01c90e04$290bff80$6501a8c0@Glens> Message-ID: <309D7C6A4A1B4B78A988BD740BF0B681@denpc> Mayf, As usual this is not a direct answer to your question but another way to get what you want. When I wanted the corner weights for our roadster I made a lever so I could put the tire on it with a bathroom scale under the other end. I made blocks for the other three wheels to make the car level when it was being weighed. Just had to multiply the scale reading by the lever ratio. All the jacking and moving is a fiddly, time consuming way to do it but my time is real cheap these days. Jim in Palmdale And by the way, if your car weighs 3500 lbs like mine, the lever has to be mucho stout. From ecpurinton at wildblue.net Wed Sep 3 17:36:51 2008 From: ecpurinton at wildblue.net (Ed Purinton) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:36:51 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device In-Reply-To: <48BEF2FC.9080709@mayfco.com> References: <48BEF2FC.9080709@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Mayf, First catalog within reach here, Speedway Motors '08 Racing and Oval Track #257 shows a DECO hydraulic wheel load checker on page 258 for about $160. Think I have seen same or similar units advertised from one or more other retailers in Circle Track magazine in the past [couldn't find one listed quick in the latest issue], don't remember the prices. Ed Purinton On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 4:26 PM, drmayf wrote: > I have seen somwhere a small lever type weighing device used on race > cars. It has a stand and a lever that its under the rim of a wheel. > Whenyoupush the lever down and raise the wheel i provides weight of that > corner of the vehicle. > > I have a name of Wacho but I cannot find that name.. anybody know of a > similar product and where to look at one? > > mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ecpurinton at wildblue.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From jdincau at qnet.com Wed Sep 3 17:50:50 2008 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:50:50 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device In-Reply-To: References: <48BEF2FC.9080709@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Like this Tire V ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A A Fulcrum Scale From jdincau at qnet.com Wed Sep 3 17:52:55 2008 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:52:55 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device Message-ID: <5C94107765574F148FC7F25120A4D7EE@denpc> No like this actually Tire V ------------------------------------------------------------ A A Fulcrum Scale From DAW1 at comcast.net Wed Sep 3 18:31:05 2008 From: DAW1 at comcast.net (DAW1) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:31:05 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: <01EDD2E5E6DD4817AF51F8219E4FFCE3@SallyPC> Bosche spark plug? I had similar results on a Stihl weed wacker, even with 2 new spark plugs. Turns out there is a black coating on the wire end, not brass like the old ones, of the plug that would not allow current to get through. I had to glass bead it off. doug ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'joseph lance'" ; "'LAND-SPEED @AUTOX.TEAM .NET'" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF > Fuel pump? > > Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ > > -----Original Message----- > From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > joseph lance > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:43 PM > To: LAND-SPEED @ AUTOX.TEAM .NET > Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF > > Hi List; > > I'm having a problem with a snow blower engine--its a Craftsman 5.5 HP OHV > 4 > cycle engine. > > It has a choke and a small primer button and an electric starter. > Specified > starting procedure is wide open throttle setting, full choke, and no > primer > strokes when temp is above 50F. It will not start or fire at all using > this > procedure. > > If I turn the choke completely off and hit the primer button once or twice > it > will fire for a few revs, but not long enough for me to close the choke. > > After that it will not fire again regardless of choke setting or amount of > priming even when cranked until the thermal protection circut cuts in and > shuts down the electric starter, so I don't think its getting flooded. > > After letting it sit for a few hours, I can repeat the above miserable > results. > > Have a new plug with a strong spark, the fuel tank has completly drained > and > has fresh gas, cleaned out the carb float bowl, the gravity fed float bowl > fills with gas so the tank to carb feed hose is not blocked. The carb > mount > bolts are tight. > > Anybody have any suggestions ? > > Thanks; > > Lance > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as daw1 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From joyseydevil at comcast.net Wed Sep 3 18:32:24 2008 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:32:24 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device Message-ID: <7FC0437B48C6457398630FE7EFBE9A95@john> Mayf There's lots ways to make your hydraulic wheel weight checker . A 1 1/8" bore cylinder would read 1 to 1 on the gauge . With a little improvising maybe a wheel cylinder . John From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Sep 3 19:01:43 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:01:43 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF In-Reply-To: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> References: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: <48BF3377.701@mayfco.com> Well, Joe, it is pretty obvious isn't it... it wants snow! mayf joseph lance wrote: >Hi List; > >I'm having a problem with a snow blower engine--its a Craftsman 5.5 HP OHV 4 >cycle engine. > >It has a choke and a small primer button and an electric starter. Specified >starting procedure is wide open throttle setting, full choke, and no primer >strokes when temp is above 50F. It will not start or fire at all using this >procedure. > >If I turn the choke completely off and hit the primer button once or twice it >will fire for a few revs, but not long enough for me to close the choke. > >After that it will not fire again regardless of choke setting or amount of >priming even when cranked until the thermal protection circut cuts in and >shuts down the electric starter, so I don't think its getting flooded. > >After letting it sit for a few hours, I can repeat the above miserable >results. > >Have a new plug with a strong spark, the fuel tank has completly drained and >has fresh gas, cleaned out the carb float bowl, the gravity fed float bowl >fills with gas so the tank to carb feed hose is not blocked. The carb mount >bolts are tight. > >Anybody have any suggestions ? > >Thanks; > >Lance >_______________________________________________ From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Sep 3 19:46:48 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:46:48 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device Message-ID: <48BF3E08.1040207@mayfco.com> Ed Purinton wins the kewpie doll! He found what i was thinking of in Speedways caalog. I had looked on their web site but was unable to find it there. But now I have the info... Thanks, Ed! mayf I have seen somwhere a small lever type weighing device used on race cars. It has a stand and a lever that its under the rim of a wheel. Whenyoupush the lever down and raise the wheel i provides weight of that corner of the vehicle. I have a name of Wacho but I cannot find that name.. anybody know of a similar product and where to look at one? mayf From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Sep 3 20:11:36 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:11:36 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Ballast Message-ID: <48BF43D8.2030708@mayfco.com> I keep reminding mysef that the Sunbeam is pretty light weight. So to that end Ihave been looking for ballast. I have these lovely rectangular tube frame rails which beg to be filled with something. So I was messing around th eother day on ebay and found something that interested me. It is a steel shot grit used in blasting heavy iron castings. It comes in a lot of different grit sizes from 0.007 to something like 0.025 diameters. Smaller is more dense. And th stuff is oiled so it is kinda slippery (according to the guy I chatted with) Has any amoung you ever used such a product as ballast? I would pur the stuff into the frame tubes and then seal the end to keep it all in place. And since this is frame, it is way down low which is good. I figure I have enough frame locations to add about 400 pounds to the car just this way. Anybody use something like this? mayf From ed at vetteracing.com Wed Sep 3 20:21:01 2008 From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 02:21:01 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device Message-ID: Heck, he's across the street from Spring Mountain Motorsports resort.............. Ed -----Original Message----- From: Glen Barrett [mailto:speedtimer at beyondbb.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 01:32 PM To: drmayf at mayfco.com, 'LSR' Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device Mayf. As close to the LV speedway I'll bet someone there has scales or can help you Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:26 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Portable Weighing Device >I have seen somwhere a small lever type weighing device used on race > cars. It has a stand and a lever that its under the rim of a wheel. > Whenyoupush the lever down and raise the wheel i provides weight of that > corner of the vehicle. > > I have a name of Wacho but I cannot find that name.. anybody know of a > similar product and where to look at one? > > mayf From lsr_man at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 23:32:14 2008 From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF In-Reply-To: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: <122713.47097.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, joseph lance wrote -its a Craftsman CRAFTSMAN ? ? Are you sure it's not made in Milwaukee? Those are exactly the same symptoms my old Harley pahnead had - - for six years! DickJ In east Texas From wester6935 at comcast.net Thu Sep 4 00:07:12 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 00:07:12 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Cliff Gullett Message-ID: http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=f825ae56-a04b-4c43-acde-059ef8edc56d From wester6935 at comcast.net Thu Sep 4 00:15:45 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 00:15:45 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Cliff Gullett - 2 References: Message-ID: <8E814395-8214-415E-BAB1-6E6F456C4D14@comcast.net> This was mentioned earlier on this list about the Montana racers and Gullerr is quoted. http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/05/18/news/state/20-speedracers.txt Some of Ray's photos of the #7070 liner: http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/sw/20080821/0808210003.html Begin forwarded message: > From: Wester Potter > Date: September 4, 2008 12:07:12 AM MDT > To: LAND SPEED LIST > Subject: [Land-speed] Cliff Gullett > > http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=f825ae56-a04b-4c43-acde-059ef8edc56d > > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Thu Sep 4 00:21:11 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 00:21:11 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Cliff Gullett - 2 References: <8E814395-8214-415E-BAB1-6E6F456C4D14@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5569B043-76BE-48C7-AB25-912935B2C4BF@comcast.net> Begin forwarded message: > From: Wester Potter > Date: September 4, 2008 12:15:45 AM MDT > To: LAND SPEED LIST > Subject: Fwd: [Land-speed] Cliff Gullett - 2 > > This was mentioned earlier on this list about the Montana racers and > Gullerr is quoted. > > http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/05/18/news/state/20-speedracers.txt > > Some of Ray's photos of the #7070 liner: http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/sw/20080821/0808210003.html > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Wester Potter >> Date: September 4, 2008 12:07:12 AM MDT >> To: LAND SPEED LIST >> Subject: [Land-speed] Cliff Gullett >> >> http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=f825ae56-a04b-4c43-acde-059ef8edc56d From SCowle at mentorcollege.edu Thu Sep 4 09:52:56 2008 From: SCowle at mentorcollege.edu (Scott Cowle) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:52:56 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] ITS ALIVE Message-ID: <48BFCC180200003800008426@gw.mentorcollege.edu> Well-I got my Duster engine rebuilt and running and I am really pleased to say it sounds and feels great . The new supercharger specific camshaft seems to really help the engine run smoother and the power comes on more uniformly. All in all it seems to go like stink.Still gotta update the safety equipment which will include a Hans device.I know my car isn't that fast but still it is fast enough that I could really hurt myself.I hope everyone in the world of landspeed racing is well and having fun.I look forward to taking another shot at Maxton as soon as funds permit, and seeing everyone again. Scott ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This communication may contain confidential or privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by email and delete all copies of this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- <<>> From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Thu Sep 4 09:55:08 2008 From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 10:55:08 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Ballast In-Reply-To: <48BF43D8.2030708@mayfco.com> References: <48BF43D8.2030708@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF39F42@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> When I was running a '29 roadster with My Brother in Law the Frame rails were filled with lead shot, the kind you shoot Quail/Doves with. #8 I think Mike Meierle #847 F/P/MP SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA ECTA Record Holder From lsr_man at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 11:20:26 2008 From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 10:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] ITS ALIVE In-Reply-To: <48BFCC180200003800008426@gw.mentorcollege.edu> Message-ID: <592461.13528.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Scott Cowle wrote: .. .. my car isn't that fast but still it is fast enough that I could really hurt myself. I agree, Scott. Because we are LSR-types, we get real casual about 160mph or 200mph. There are a whole lot of people getting killed under 70 mph! DickJ In East Texas From lsr_man at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 11:22:56 2008 From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 10:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Message-ID: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Scotts email got me thinking. Who has found a good deal on a Hans device or one of the other similar pieces of safety equipment. Any comments on any of those other systems? DickJ In East Texas From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Thu Sep 4 11:29:34 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:29:34 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007c01c90eb3$cd1833a0$6501a8c0@Glens> Contact Joe Timney at Delaware Chassis. He is in the rule book. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick J" To: "lsr list autox" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Scotts email got me thinking. Who has found a good deal on a Hans device > or > one of the other similar pieces of safety equipment. Any comments on any > of > those other systems? > > DickJ > In East Texas > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 1972 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From delsolid at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 12:34:30 2008 From: delsolid at gmail.com (John Romero) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:34:30 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Some rambling thoughts on my Hans. I have had a Hans for a couple of years but this Speedweek I stopped using it. The combination of the new lateral head restraint and the Hans just didn't work in my case. It was the old "10lbs of shit in a 5lb box" in my situation. Despite my seat being Hans compatible and always being fine before the lateral head restraint was installed, the added stuff on top of my shoulders just put me over the limit. The lateral head restraint blocked my normal exit path, moving my exit path a bit forward, (as I am sure it has affected everyone). This required a bit if gymnastics with my helmet that i simply could not do with the Hans on. I strongly suggest before buying one that you try one out with your full suit on and fully strapped in. Mine didn't become "over the edge" until I did so and tried my exit drill. I was amazed at the increased difficulty in exiting with the new side restraints and Hans device. In short, I couldn't exit my car without taking off the helmet and Hans. If my cars on fire I am NOT going to take off my gloves, then my helmet so I can exit. The Hans device on my shoulders prevented me from scrunching down my head/helmet to clear a roll bar and no scrunch meant no exit. I am looking into the R3 device. It is the one that runs down your back and does not use your shoulder straps to secure it.I am not knocking the Hans. I think it is *excellent* and it was the right choice for my previous setup buy my current interior configuration is pushing me in another direction. I am not comfortable running without something, even in the 175-200 mph range. If the Hans will physically fit in your situation then I highly recommend it. I have practiced some more with the Hans and I may again use it in the future but I am still not sure. In the safe environment of my shop I can now exit the car quickly with it on but it takes concentration and a very specific and precise set of movements, most of which I fear will abandon me in the panic of a fire. John On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Dick J wrote: > Scotts email got me thinking. Who has found a good deal on a Hans device or > one of the other similar pieces of safety equipment. Any comments on any of > those other systems? > > DickJ > In East Texas > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as delsolid at gmail.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Thu Sep 4 12:49:20 2008 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:49:20 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37A8566939582C439A165159E7F7BDCB016CDE42@cddgomsx03.durango-co.catholichealth.net> The "entry level" device has been available most of the year for around $700 - probably through most suppliers. If needed I will nab some information - one could probably google for dealers or check for a vendor in the rule book (?) . Let me know if anyone needs further info. David -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dick J Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:23 AM To: lsr list autox Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Scotts email got me thinking. Who has found a good deal on a Hans device or one of the other similar pieces of safety equipment. Any comments on any of those other systems? DickJ In East Texas Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From 23.weldon at comcast.net Thu Sep 4 12:56:58 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:56:58 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c90ec0$04630e00$6401a8c0@S> Thanks, John. This is good stuff. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Romero" To: Cc: "lsr list autox" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Some rambling thoughts on my Hans. (snip) > John From kturk at ala.net Thu Sep 4 13:23:57 2008 From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001901c90ec0$04630e00$6401a8c0@S> Message-ID: <020101c90ec3$c8237bb0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> I hope everyone reads "EVERY" thing John wrote... he believes in the hans... but it requires some thought... My question to John is this.... if you were in an accident... would you want it in your bag of tricks? or would you be okay with a quality Neck roll? ( not picking asking an honest question ) John doesn't have a Long neck... if you do... like Mike Mangelli's or mine... I don't think fore and aft head restraint is even an option.... Personally I'll never get in the car again without it... but I've always had the radical seat system since I bought the Hans... and it does take some thought... and practice... John.... thanks for an honest and thought out evaluation... Keith From dlodom at charter.net Thu Sep 4 15:28:33 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:28:33 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c90ed5$2f89c230$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> There are some new head and neck movement limiting products coming on the market soon that will work a lot better in some of the type cars we run. I'm going to wait till after the SEMA show and look around a lot before I buy anything myself. If your helmet movement restriction is mounted to the seat and not the roll bar and they have to use the jaws of life to lift you out of the car your shoulders are going to be wider than the helmet so they will also have to cut that off. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Romero" To: Cc: "lsr list autox" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Some rambling thoughts on my Hans. > > I have had a Hans for a couple of years but this Speedweek I stopped > using it. The combination of the new lateral head restraint and the > Hans just didn't work in my case. It was the old "10lbs of shit in a > 5lb box" in my situation. Despite my seat being Hans compatible and > always being fine before the lateral head restraint was installed, the > added stuff on top of my shoulders just put me over the limit. The > lateral head restraint blocked my normal exit path, moving my exit > path a bit forward, (as I am sure it has affected everyone). This > required a bit if gymnastics with my helmet that i simply could not do > with the Hans on. I strongly suggest before buying one that you try > one out with your full suit on and fully strapped in. Mine didn't > become "over the edge" until I did so and tried my exit drill. I was > amazed at the increased difficulty in exiting with the new side > restraints and Hans device. In short, I couldn't exit my car without > taking off the helmet and Hans. If my cars on fire I am NOT going to > take off my gloves, then my helmet so I can exit. The Hans device on > my shoulders prevented me from scrunching down my head/helmet to clear > a roll bar and no scrunch meant no exit. > > I am looking into the R3 device. It is the one that runs down your > back and does not use your shoulder straps to secure it.I am not > knocking the Hans. I think it is *excellent* and it was the right > choice for my previous setup buy my current interior configuration is > pushing me in another direction. I am not comfortable running without > something, even in the 175-200 mph range. If the Hans will physically > fit in your situation then I highly recommend it. > > I have practiced some more with the Hans and I may again use it in the > future but I am still not sure. In the safe environment of my shop I > can now exit the car quickly with it on but it takes concentration and > a very specific and precise set of movements, most of which I fear > will abandon me in the panic of a fire. > > John From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 16:04:27 2008 From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 22:04:27 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Ballast In-Reply-To: <48BF43D8.2030708@mayfco.com> References: <48BF43D8.2030708@mayfco.com> Message-ID: or shotgun shot... #6's whichever is cheaper in bulk.. c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug ' -20 miles from Square Deal Raceway, -21 miles east of Action Park Speedway, -63 miles northeast of Champion Speedway -105 miles south of ' The Syracuse Mile ' ... -241.4 miles north of Williams Grove Speedway -2247 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats but never more than a few feet from a cold one ------------------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:11:36 -0700 > From: drmayf at mayfco.com > To: land-speed at autox.team.net > Subject: [Land-speed] Ballast > > I keep reminding mysef that the Sunbeam is pretty light weight. So to > that end Ihave been looking for ballast. I have these lovely rectangular > tube frame rails which beg to be filled with something. So I was > messing around th eother day on ebay and found something that interested > me. It is a steel shot grit used in blasting heavy iron castings. It > comes in a lot of different grit sizes from 0.007 to something like > 0.025 diameters. Smaller is more dense. And th stuff is oiled so it is > kinda slippery (according to the guy I chatted with) Has any amoung you > ever used such a product as ballast? I would pur the stuff into the > frame tubes and then seal the end to keep it all in place. And since > this is frame, it is way down low which is good. I figure I have enough > frame locations to add about 400 pounds to the car just this way. > > Anybody use something like this? > > mayf _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 16:08:04 2008 From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 22:08:04 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF In-Reply-To: <122713.47097.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <000e01c90e0e$0b0afbd0$2101a8c0@WinXP> <122713.47097.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: oh you're bad Dick... -shame on you for your disparaging remarks about fine AMERICAN machinery !I've had Harley-Ds for decades and I ain't neva had one c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug ' -20 miles from Square Deal Raceway, -21 miles east of Action Park Speedway, -63 miles northeast of Champion Speedway -105 miles south of ' The Syracuse Mile ' ... -241.4 miles north of Williams Grove Speedway -2247 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats but never more than a few feet from a cold one ------------------------------------------------- Speedway Bikes, Minibikes and Harley- D's rode with equal joy, Dog Training, Murdersickle Parts, Emergency Airship repair, Hot Air, Hot Blues, Cold Beer, Fast Cars, an' Warm Willin' Wimin' Aerial Surveillance, Corrupt Politicians exposed, Midgets, Sprint Cars, -and 'Slide Jobs' truly appreciated for the FINE ART that they are -------------------------- oooo --------------------------- > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:32:14 -0700 > From: lsr_man at yahoo.com > To: land-speed at autox.team.net; jolylance at earthlink.net > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] NON-LSR ENGINE STUFF > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, joseph lance wrote -its a Craftsman > > CRAFTSMAN ? ? Are you sure it's not made in Milwaukee? Those are exactly the > same symptoms my old Harley pahnead had - - for six years! > > DickJ In east Texas _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn 10 hidden secrets from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Fri Sep 5 09:52:19 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:52:19 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Ballast In-Reply-To: <48BF43D8.2030708@mayfco.com> References: <48BF43D8.2030708@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <48C155B3.4070201@wildblue.net> You could do like Bonner Denton did, he uses a small drag chute which moves the center of pressure back just like a tail fin. Works great. Bryan drmayf wrote: > I keep reminding mysef that the Sunbeam is pretty light weight. So to > that end Ihave been looking for ballast. I have these lovely rectangular > tube frame rails which beg to be filled with something. So I was > messing around th eother day on ebay and found something that interested > me. It is a steel shot grit used in blasting heavy iron castings. It > comes in a lot of different grit sizes from 0.007 to something like > 0.025 diameters. Smaller is more dense. And th stuff is oiled so it is > kinda slippery (according to the guy I chatted with) Has any amoung you > ever used such a product as ballast? I would pur the stuff into the > frame tubes and then seal the end to keep it all in place. And since > this is frame, it is way down low which is good. I figure I have enough > frame locations to add about 400 pounds to the car just this way. > > Anybody use something like this? > > mayf From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Fri Sep 5 09:59:46 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:59:46 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] ITS ALIVE In-Reply-To: <48BFCC180200003800008426@gw.mentorcollege.edu> References: <48BFCC180200003800008426@gw.mentorcollege.edu> Message-ID: <48C15772.1070902@wildblue.net> Stock bodied race car, Hans Device -- sounds like a perfect match to me. Bryan Scott Cowle wrote: > Well-I got my Duster engine rebuilt and running and I am really pleased to say > it sounds and feels great . The new supercharger specific camshaft seems to > really help the engine run smoother and the power comes on more uniformly. All > in all it seems to go like stink.Still gotta update the safety equipment which > will include a Hans device.I know my car isn't that fast but still it is fast > enough that I could really hurt myself.I hope everyone in the world of > landspeed racing is well and having fun.I look forward to taking another shot > at Maxton as soon as funds permit, and seeing everyone again. Scott From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Fri Sep 5 10:06:15 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:06:15 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> Good thinking John. Exit from a fire needs to be an instinctive habit. It requires no interference and a lot of practice. Bryan John Romero wrote: > Some rambling thoughts on my Hans. > > I have had a Hans for a couple of years but this Speedweek I stopped > using it. The combination of the new lateral head restraint and the > Hans just didn't work in my case. It was the old "10lbs of shit in a > 5lb box" in my situation. Despite my seat being Hans compatible and > always being fine before the lateral head restraint was installed, the > added stuff on top of my shoulders just put me over the limit. The > lateral head restraint blocked my normal exit path, moving my exit > path a bit forward, (as I am sure it has affected everyone). This > required a bit if gymnastics with my helmet that i simply could not do > with the Hans on. I strongly suggest before buying one that you try > one out with your full suit on and fully strapped in. Mine didn't > become "over the edge" until I did so and tried my exit drill. I was > amazed at the increased difficulty in exiting with the new side > restraints and Hans device. In short, I couldn't exit my car without > taking off the helmet and Hans. If my cars on fire I am NOT going to > take off my gloves, then my helmet so I can exit. The Hans device on > my shoulders prevented me from scrunching down my head/helmet to clear > a roll bar and no scrunch meant no exit. > > I am looking into the R3 device. It is the one that runs down your > back and does not use your shoulder straps to secure it.I am not > knocking the Hans. I think it is *excellent* and it was the right > choice for my previous setup buy my current interior configuration is > pushing me in another direction. I am not comfortable running without > something, even in the 175-200 mph range. If the Hans will physically > fit in your situation then I highly recommend it. > > I have practiced some more with the Hans and I may again use it in the > future but I am still not sure. In the safe environment of my shop I > can now exit the car quickly with it on but it takes concentration and > a very specific and precise set of movements, most of which I fear > will abandon me in the panic of a fire. > > John From david_dymaxion at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 10:22:36 2008 From: david_dymaxion at yahoo.com (David Dymaxion) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Salt Flats motorcycle death Message-ID: <449862.58618.qm@web32803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080905/sp_afp/usaccidentmoto_080905020054 From gmc6power at earthlink.net Fri Sep 5 10:33:31 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:33:31 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Message-ID: <8058073.1220632412030.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Many of our vehicles were constructed prior to any need/knowledge of head and neck restraints. Many will be hard to use in the constraints which were built at the time. I'm sure Teague #76 liner could be a problem with a Hans type device. He was a very tight fit in the car. I'm hoping the Officials and rules committee will take this into their discussions. Mike Cook and his Son have used many of the devices and Jr. has posted he has already changed to a different style to enter and exit his car with what we would call ease. With NASCAR and the COT the driver has been mandated to sit closer to the middle and lower than the older style cars. All of the winners take their helmets, devices, air tubes, radios, etc: off before getting out of their vehicles. There is no way in he-- that is possible in my roadster. I'm hoping the older Hutchins device and D-Cell device will acceptable to our rules even tho they do not to meet SFI approval. There are quite a few manufacturers and we would need to know what will be acceptable and I'm sure we will. ...JD > >Good thinking John. >Exit from a fire needs to be an instinctive habit. It requires no >interference >and a lot of practice. >Bryan > > >John Romero wrote: . >> >> I am looking into the R3 device. It is the one that runs down your >> back and does not use your shoulder straps to secure it.I am not >> knocking the Hans. I think it is *excellent* and it was the right >> choice for my previous setup buy my current interior configuration is >> pushing me in another direction. I am not comfortable running without >> something, even in the 175-200 mph range. If the Hans will physically >> fit in your situation then I highly recommend it. >> >> I have practiced some more with the Hans and I may again use it in the >> future but I am still not sure. In the safe environment of my shop I >> can now exit the car quickly with it on but it takes concentration and >> a very specific and precise set of movements, most of which I fear >> will abandon me in the panic of a fire. >> >> John From AI6V at aol.com Fri Sep 5 10:45:24 2008 From: AI6V at aol.com (AI6V at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:45:24 EDT Subject: [Land-speed] World of Speed entry Message-ID: Have a World of Speed entry that I will not be able to use. Anyone want to buy it? Carl #363 **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) From delsolid at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 10:50:40 2008 From: delsolid at gmail.com (John Romero) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:50:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C0EB0D020000380000844F@gw.mentorcollege.edu> Message-ID: Let me clarify my earlier post. I didn't mean to imply that most crashes result in a fire but that most fires happen after the crash, not before it, so surviving the crash is a prerequisite to worrying about a fire. On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 8:52 AM, John Romero wrote: > The one thing to keep in mind regarding a fire is that it most always > happens after the accident. Worrying about the fire is smart, but > never forget that you have to survive the accident before it becomes > an issue. > > John From dlodom at charter.net Fri Sep 5 11:19:21 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:19:21 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <8058073.1220632412030.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003b01c90f7b$89adc2b0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> I agree that SFI approval alone should not be the criteria use to judge if the head and neck movement restriction is making the driver safer. Having looked at Tom Burklands device it does what it is designed to do and I don't think it has a SFI sticker. We don't have cookie cutter cars and one size does not fit all. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Tone" To: "Bryan Savage" ; "John Romero" Cc: "lsr list autox" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Many of our vehicles were constructed prior to any need/knowledge of head > and neck restraints. Many will be hard to use in the constraints which > were built at the time. I'm sure Teague #76 liner could be a problem with > a Hans type device. He was a very tight fit in the car. I'm hoping the > Officials and rules committee will take this into their discussions. Mike > Cook and his Son have used many of the devices and Jr. has posted he has > already changed to a different style to enter and exit his car with what > we would call ease. > With NASCAR and the COT the driver has been mandated to sit closer to the > middle and lower than the older style cars. All of the winners take their > helmets, devices, air tubes, radios, etc: off before getting out of their > vehicles. There is no way in he-- that is possible in my roadster. > > I'm hoping the older Hutchins device and D-Cell device will acceptable to > our rules even tho they do not to meet SFI approval. There are quite a few > manufacturers and we would need to know what will be acceptable and I'm > sure we will. > > ...JD From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Sep 5 12:16:15 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:16:15 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> In cars with lateral head restraints (either cage structure or padding), Why not attach the forward head restraints to the roll cage instead of the HANS and thereby have no HANS to get in the way of egress? It's a simple solution that doesn't endanger the driver in a situation requiring rapid exit from the cockpit. Just unhook them and get out....... Skip At 09:06 AM 9/5/2008, Bryan Savage wrote: >Good thinking John. >Exit from a fire needs to be an instinctive habit. It requires no >interference >and a lot of practice. >Bryan > > >John Romero wrote: > > Some rambling thoughts on my Hans. > > > > I have had a Hans for a couple of years but this Speedweek I stopped > > using it. The combination of the new lateral head restraint and the > > Hans just didn't work in my case. It was the old "10lbs of shit in a > > 5lb box" in my situation. Despite my seat being Hans compatible and > > always being fine before the lateral head restraint was installed, the > > added stuff on top of my shoulders just put me over the limit. The > > ......... From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Fri Sep 5 13:49:26 2008 From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 14:49:26 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> Don't like the idea of hooking my head the roll cage and the rest to the seat. The two might go in different directions....IMHO Mike Meierle Alcatel-Lucent Sr. Systems Engineer 7751 Windsor Drive Dublin, Ohio 43016 Office: (614) 733-3989 Fax: (614) 733-3961 Cell: (614) 284-6229 -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+mike.meierle=alcatel-lucent.com at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+mike.meierle=alcatel-lucent.com at autox.team.ne t] On Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:16 PM To: Bryan Savage; John Romero Cc: lsr list autox Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In cars with lateral head restraints (either cage structure or padding), Why not attach the forward head restraints to the roll cage instead of the HANS and thereby have no HANS to get in the way of egress? [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of Mike Meierle.vcf] From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Sep 5 14:13:31 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 13:13:31 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48C140960200003800008482@gw.mentorcollege.edu> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <48C140960200003800008482@gw.mentorcollege.edu> Message-ID: <20080905201322.F341918764F@autox.team.net> Scott, it provides the intent of the HANS Device in that the driver's head is kept from snapping forward in the event of a frontal impact. "Must be engineered as an integral part of the entire restraint system......" In my view, this is engineering forward head restraint into the entire restraint system. In my car the driver's head cannot snap forward due to the constraints of the roll cage (helmet runs into the front roll hoop). Driver is held in place with a 7 point harness, lateral head movement is less than 1/2" and a rear headrest is provided. What say, safety guys? Dan? Mike? Lee? Can we install the helmet restraints as I have described? Skip At 11:22 AM 9/5/2008, Scott Cowle wrote: >Hi Skip -is this allowed?Will it pass tech? Scott > > >>> Skip Higginbotham 9/5/2008 2:16 PM >>> >In cars with lateral head restraints (either cage structure or >padding), Why not attach the forward head restraints to the roll cage >instead of the HANS and thereby have no HANS to get in the way of >egress? > >It's a simple solution that doesn't endanger the driver in a >situation requiring rapid exit from the cockpit. Just unhook them and >get out....... > >Skip > > > >At 09:06 AM 9/5/2008, Bryan Savage wrote: > >Good thinking John. > >Exit from a fire needs to be an instinctive habit. It requires no > >interference > >and a lot of practice. > >Bryan From dlodom at charter.net Fri Sep 5 14:19:12 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 13:19:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> Message-ID: <007301c90f94$aa01c930$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> The seat should always be attached to the roll cage as one unit. You, the seat and the roll cage staying all together has proven to be the safest way to protect the driver. The rest of the car can fly away for all I care but I want to be sitting inside that seat inside the cage when it comes to a stop. And yes, been there, done that. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEIERLE Mike" To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; "Bryan Savage" ; "John Romero" Cc: "lsr list autox" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Don't like the idea of hooking my head the roll cage and the rest to the > seat. The two might go in different directions....IMHO > > Mike Meierle From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Sep 5 14:22:29 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 13:22:29 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.a d.alcatel.com> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> Message-ID: <20080905202227.DB7FA187678@autox.team.net> Mike, My driver's harness is hooked to the roll cage braces and the frame......yours is hooked to the seat?????? Should be hooked to the frame or crossmember. If all that goes in different directions, no amount of safety equipment is going to save you. Skip At 12:49 PM 9/5/2008, MEIERLE Mike wrote: >Don't like the idea of hooking my head the roll cage and the rest to the >seat. The two might go in different directions....IMHO > >Mike Meierle >Alcatel-Lucent >Sr. Systems Engineer >7751 Windsor Drive >Dublin, Ohio 43016 >Office: (614) 733-3989 >Fax: (614) 733-3961 >Cell: (614) 284-6229 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: land-speed-bounces+mike.meierle=alcatel-lucent.com at autox.team.net >[mailto:land-speed-bounces+mike.meierle=alcatel-lucent.com at autox.team.ne >t] On Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham >Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:16 PM >To: Bryan Savage; John Romero >Cc: lsr list autox >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > >In cars with lateral head restraints (either cage structure or padding), >Why not attach the forward head restraints to the roll cage instead of >the HANS and thereby have no HANS to get in the way of egress? From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com Fri Sep 5 14:31:22 2008 From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:31:22 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <007301c90f94$aa01c930$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> <007301c90f94$aa01c930$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF9006A@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> Hmm, I gotta think about that, the seat, in my truck, is mounted to the roll cage, so the seat and roll cage would be very difficult to separate. The shoulder straps and submarine belt are attached to the roll cage, but the lap belt(s) are bolted thru the floor of the cab with backing plates. I guess even if the cab was ripped off the chassis, all the connections would be intact and the fire suit only a little damp as a result. How about explosive bolts to release the straps? Trigger on the firebottle release? 8-) Mike M. The seat should always be attached to the roll cage as one unit. You, the seat and the roll cage staying all together has proven to be the safest way to protect the driver. The rest of the car can fly away for all I care but I want to be sitting inside that seat inside the cage when it comes to a stop. And yes, been there, done that. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEIERLE Mike" To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; "Bryan Savage" ; "John Romero" Cc: "lsr list autox" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Don't like the idea of hooking my head the roll cage and the rest to > the seat. The two might go in different directions....IMHO > > Mike Meierle From dlodom at charter.net Fri Sep 5 15:10:04 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 14:10:04 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net><7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com><007301c90f94$aa01c930$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF9006A@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> Message-ID: <008801c90f9b$c4f444a0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Your lap belts must be attached to the roll bars the same as your seat! That is the only safe way to mount it. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEIERLE Mike" To: "lsr list autox" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Hmm, I gotta think about that, the seat, in my truck, is mounted to the > roll cage, so the seat and roll cage would be very difficult to > separate. The shoulder straps and submarine belt are attached to the > roll cage, but the lap belt(s) are bolted thru the floor of the cab with > backing plates. > > I guess even if the cab was ripped off the chassis, all the connections > would be intact and the fire suit only a little damp as a result. How > about explosive bolts to release the straps? Trigger on the firebottle > release? 8-) > > Mike M. > > The seat should always be attached to the roll cage as one unit. You, > the seat and the roll cage staying all together has proven to be the > safest way to protect the driver. The rest of the car can fly away for > all I care but I want to be sitting inside that seat inside the cage > when it comes to a stop. > And yes, been there, done that. > Doug Odom in big ditch > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MEIERLE Mike" > To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; "Bryan Savage" > ; "John Romero" > Cc: "lsr list autox" > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > > >> Don't like the idea of hooking my head the roll cage and the rest to >> the seat. The two might go in different directions....IMHO >> >> Mike Meierle > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as dlodom at charter.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From delsolid at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 17:08:59 2008 From: delsolid at gmail.com (John Romero) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:08:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <008801c90f9b$c4f444a0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> <007301c90f94$aa01c930$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF9006A@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> <008801c90f9b$c4f444a0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: I like that the Hans basically attaches my helmet to my shoulders, which is exactly what I want it to remain nearest! Seat belts can stretch a significant amount. Imagine you seat belts stretching 10" and your head restraint stretching 2". I dont want my head trying to keep my body in place. The benefit of the hans, hutchins and their like is that they dont try to restrain your head, they simply keep your head near the rest of your body. lets the rest of the equipment handle the rest. John On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Doug Odom wrote: > Your lap belts must be attached to the roll bars the same as your seat! That > is the only safe way to mount it. > Doug Odom in big ditch > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MEIERLE Mike" > To: "lsr list autox" > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > > >> Hmm, I gotta think about that, the seat, in my truck, is mounted to the >> roll cage, so the seat and roll cage would be very difficult to >> separate. The shoulder straps and submarine belt are attached to the >> roll cage, but the lap belt(s) are bolted thru the floor of the cab with >> backing plates. >> >> I guess even if the cab was ripped off the chassis, all the connections >> would be intact and the fire suit only a little damp as a result. How >> about explosive bolts to release the straps? Trigger on the firebottle >> release? 8-) >> >> Mike M. >> >> The seat should always be attached to the roll cage as one unit. You, >> the seat and the roll cage staying all together has proven to be the >> safest way to protect the driver. The rest of the car can fly away for >> all I care but I want to be sitting inside that seat inside the cage >> when it comes to a stop. >> And yes, been there, done that. >> Doug Odom in big ditch >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "MEIERLE Mike" >> To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; "Bryan Savage" >> ; "John Romero" >> Cc: "lsr list autox" >> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:49 PM >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety >> >> >>> Don't like the idea of hooking my head the roll cage and the rest to >>> the seat. The two might go in different directions....IMHO >>> >>> Mike Meierle >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Land-speed mailing list >> >> You are subscribed as dlodom at charter.net >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as delsolid at gmail.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Sep 5 19:41:51 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 18:41:51 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> <007301c90f94$aa01c930$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF9006A@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> <008801c90f9b$c4f444a0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <20080906014142.6FB3018766C@autox.team.net> 10"?????? Do you have any data to back that up? I'd like to see it please. Thanks, Skip At 04:08 PM 9/5/2008, John Romero wrote: >I like that the Hans basically attaches my helmet to my shoulders, >which is exactly what I want it to remain nearest! Seat belts can >stretch a significant amount. Imagine you seat belts stretching 10" >and your head restraint stretching 2". I dont want my head trying to >keep my body in place. > >The benefit of the hans, hutchins and their like is that they dont try >to restrain your head, they simply keep your head near the rest of >your body. lets the rest of the equipment handle the rest. > >John > > > >On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Doug Odom wrote: > > Your lap belts must be attached to the roll bars the same as your > seat! That > > is the only safe way to mount it. > > Doug Odom in big ditch > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MEIERLE Mike" > > To: "lsr list autox" > > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety From kturk at ala.net Fri Sep 5 19:58:46 2008 From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:58:46 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> Skip that 2 more points your attached to the car.... so now in a streamliner you not only have to undo the belt but the lower belt and now you have 2 more strings on your head to get? Simply to much... the Hans works... and it's fairly easy to deal with... I've never had an issue and my car's fairly confining as well... John's case is John's case.... and yours is yours... do what works just don't trust to things not going wrong... cause you and I both know they will eventually... K From delsolid at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 22:07:40 2008 From: delsolid at gmail.com (John Romero) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 21:07:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48c1dfd6.06d6720a.48e3.ffffb8f8SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF90028@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> <007301c90f94$aa01c930$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20AF9006A@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com> <008801c90f9b$c4f444a0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> <48c1dfd6.06d6720a.48e3.ffffb8f8SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: no, no, no. I was just using numbers to show the difference. The point I was trying to make is that if they don't both deflect the same amount then the one that deflects the least will always be attempting to constrain both. On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > > 10"?????? Do you have any data to back that up? I'd like to see it please. > Thanks, > > Skip > > > > At 04:08 PM 9/5/2008, John Romero wrote: >> >> I like that the Hans basically attaches my helmet to my shoulders, >> which is exactly what I want it to remain nearest! Seat belts can >> stretch a significant amount. Imagine you seat belts stretching 10" >> and your head restraint stretching 2". I dont want my head trying to >> keep my body in place. >> >> The benefit of the hans, hutchins and their like is that they dont try >> to restrain your head, they simply keep your head near the rest of >> your body. lets the rest of the equipment handle the rest. >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Doug Odom wrote: >> > Your lap belts must be attached to the roll bars the same as your seat! >> > That >> > is the only safe way to mount it. >> > Doug Odom in big ditch >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "MEIERLE Mike" >> > To: "lsr list autox" >> > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:31 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Sep 5 22:14:57 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:14:57 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> Message-ID: <20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> I hear you but if you can't get out of the car with a HANS Device on.........then what? 5 seconds is too much?? Skip At 06:58 PM 9/5/2008, Keith Turk wrote: >Skip that 2 more points your attached to the car.... so now in a >streamliner you not only have to undo the belt but the lower belt >and now you have 2 more strings on your head to get? > >Simply to much... > >the Hans works... and it's fairly easy to deal with... I've never >had an issue and my car's fairly confining as well... John's case >is John's case.... and yours is yours... do what works just don't >trust to things not going wrong... cause you and I both know they >will eventually... > >K From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Sep 5 22:53:30 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:53:30 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> <20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <48C20CCA.1000104@mayfco.com> I've seen a lot of chit chat about the use of a Hans device or similar. Has that been mandated by the rules committee? we just recently had to install lateral head restraints which I like just fine, but I am not one hundred percent sure I want to have to undo anything else in order to get out of a car. I know that the cross axis of inertia if it is not right will certainly take a car in a roll and start it into the endo game which is what the hans would protect from. So maybe instead of hans we need more design on the cars to keep them from going in that direction? But only if it is mandated. has that been done? And why? What has changed recently that woudl drive that decision? mayf, trundling off to bed with a loak of percoset for the implants... how am I even typing, lol.. Skip Higginbotham wrote: >I hear you but if you can't get out of the car with a HANS Device >on.........then what? 5 seconds is too much?? >Skip > > > >At 06:58 PM 9/5/2008, Keith Turk wrote: > > >>Skip that 2 more points your attached to the car.... so now in a >>streamliner you not only have to undo the belt but the lower belt >>and now you have 2 more strings on your head to get? >> >>Simply to much... >> >>the Hans works... and it's fairly easy to deal with... I've never >>had an issue and my car's fairly confining as well... John's case >>is John's case.... and yours is yours... do what works just don't >>trust to things not going wrong... cause you and I both know they >>will eventually... >> >>K >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From 23.weldon at comcast.net Fri Sep 5 23:46:28 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 22:46:28 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net><02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> <48C20CCA.1000104@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <003101c90fe3$ec232990$6401a8c0@S> Mayf -- Go on Landracing.com, Bonneville General Chat, for a good commentary posted today by Lee Kennedy. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "Skip Higginbotham" Cc: "lsr list autox" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > I've seen a lot of chit chat about the use of a Hans device or similar. > Has that been mandated by the rules committee? we just recently had to > install lateral head restraints which I like just fine, but I am not one > hundred percent sure I want to have to undo anything else in order to > get out of a car. I know that the cross axis of inertia if it is not > right will certainly take a car in a roll and start it into the endo > game which is what the hans would protect from. So maybe instead of hans > we need more design on the cars to keep them from going in that direction? > But only if it is mandated. > has that been done? And why? What has changed recently that woudl drive > that decision? > mayf, trundling off to bed with a loak of percoset for the implants... > how am I even typing, lol.. From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Sep 6 08:41:55 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 07:41:55 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <003101c90fe3$ec232990$6401a8c0@S> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net><02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> <48C20CCA.1000104@mayfco.com> <003101c90fe3$ec232990$6401a8c0@S> Message-ID: <48C296B3.4090609@mayfco.com> Well, looks to me like something will be required. The rules commitee are skating around the issue and due to the nature of the event, they generally come down on the side of safety. I think air bags would work better. And why not?, We do not see HANS devices mandated by the government on street cars because that would be costly. So we have mandated frontal air bags. Actually, wha t I think is that I would like the rules folks to stop taking care of me because they are going to price me right out of racing. Whether by eventually retiring my dinky car because it will cost too much to keep it in spec or by forcing me to purchase so much personal safety equipment that I cannot afford that either. I suspect many of us are in that situation. mayf Ed Weldon wrote: >Mayf -- >Go on Landracing.com, Bonneville General Chat, for a good commentary posted >today by Lee Kennedy. >Ed >----- Original Message ----- >From: "drmayf" >To: "Skip Higginbotham" >Cc: "lsr list autox" >Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 9:53 PM >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > > > > >>I've seen a lot of chit chat about the use of a Hans device or similar. >>Has that been mandated by the rules committee? we just recently had to >>install lateral head restraints which I like just fine, but I am not one >>hundred percent sure I want to have to undo anything else in order to >>get out of a car. I know that the cross axis of inertia if it is not >>right will certainly take a car in a roll and start it into the endo >>game which is what the hans would protect from. So maybe instead of hans >>we need more design on the cars to keep them from going in that direction? >>But only if it is mandated. >>has that been done? And why? What has changed recently that woudl drive >>that decision? >>mayf, trundling off to bed with a loak of percoset for the implants... >>how am I even typing, lol.. From BWANA343 at aol.com Sat Sep 6 09:08:01 2008 From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 11:08:01 EDT Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Amazing Dolphins/Non LSR Message-ID: ____________________________________ My approach to LSR is much more on the Aero emphasis, due both to how interesting it is to me, and the success of vehicles I've found do the homework and the subsequent advantages they've gained. I've watched this video many times, really can't get anything practical out of it except for being further humbled by nature, and hope there's a practical application ,maybe in a vortex generation device. Enjoy, I hope Bob W The attached video is of dolphins playing with silver colored rings which they have the ability to make under water to play with. It isn't known how they learn this, or if it's an inbred ability. As if by magic the dolphin does a quick flip of its head and a silver ring appears in front of its pointed beak... The ring is a solid, donut shaped bubble about 2-ft across, yet it doesn't rise to the surface of the water! It stands upright in the water like a magic doorway to an unseen dimension. The dolphin then pulls a small silver donut from the larger one. Looking at the twisting ring for one last time a bite is taken from it, causing the small ring to collapse into a thousands of tiny bubbles which head upward towards the water's surface. After a few moments the dolphin creates another ring to play with. There also seems to be a separate mechanism for producing small rings, which a dolphin can accomplish by a quick flip of its head. An explanation of how dolphins make these silver rings is that they are 'air-core vortex rings'. Invisible, spinning vortices in the water are generated from the tip of a dolphin's dorsal fin when it is moving rapidly and turning. When dolphins break the line, the ends are drawn together into a closed ring. The higher velocity fluid around the core of the vortex is at a lower pressure than the fluid circulating farther away. Air is injected into the rings via bubbles released from the dolphin's blowhole. The energy of the water vortex is enough to keep the bubbles from rising for a reasonably few seconds of play time. ____________________________________ **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of BlowingRings.wmv] From BWANA343 at aol.com Sat Sep 6 09:17:04 2008 From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 11:17:04 EDT Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Amazing Dolphins/Non LSR Message-ID: In a message dated 9/6/2008 11:08:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BWANA343 at aol.com writes: [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of BlowingRings.wmv] Sooo, the server didn't like the attachment. Here's a address on You Tube, same deal.... Sorry _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMCf7SNUb-Q&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMCf7SNUb-Q&feature=related) If nothing appears here either, PM me or Google "Dolphins Blow Bubble rings" Bob W...shut in in NY, Hurricane Raining **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From delsolid at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 10:00:36 2008 From: delsolid at gmail.com (John Romero) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 09:00:36 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48C296B3.4090609@mayfco.com> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> <20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> <48C20CCA.1000104@mayfco.com> <003101c90fe3$ec232990$6401a8c0@S> <48C296B3.4090609@mayfco.com> Message-ID: I spent more on gas getting to and from events this year than I did on my Hans 3 years ago. On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 7:41 AM, drmayf wrote: > Well, looks to me like something will be required. The rules commitee > are skating around the issue and due to the nature of the event, they > generally come down on the side of safety. I think air bags would work > better. And why not?, We do not see HANS devices mandated by the > government on street cars because that would be costly. So we have > mandated frontal air bags. Actually, wha t I think is that I would > like the rules folks to stop taking care of me because they are going to > price me right out of racing. Whether by eventually retiring my dinky > car because it will cost too much to keep it in spec or by forcing me to > purchase so much personal safety equipment that I cannot afford that > either. I suspect many of us are in that situation. > > mayf > > Ed Weldon wrote: > >>Mayf -- >>Go on Landracing.com, Bonneville General Chat, for a good commentary posted >>today by Lee Kennedy. >>Ed >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "drmayf" >>To: "Skip Higginbotham" >>Cc: "lsr list autox" >>Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 9:53 PM >>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety >> >> >> >> >>>I've seen a lot of chit chat about the use of a Hans device or similar. >>>Has that been mandated by the rules committee? we just recently had to >>>install lateral head restraints which I like just fine, but I am not one >>>hundred percent sure I want to have to undo anything else in order to >>>get out of a car. I know that the cross axis of inertia if it is not >>>right will certainly take a car in a roll and start it into the endo >>>game which is what the hans would protect from. So maybe instead of hans >>>we need more design on the cars to keep them from going in that direction? >>>But only if it is mandated. >>>has that been done? And why? What has changed recently that woudl drive >>>that decision? >>>mayf, trundling off to bed with a loak of percoset for the implants... >>>how am I even typing, lol.. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as delsolid at gmail.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From 23.weldon at comcast.net Sat Sep 6 10:01:18 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 09:01:18 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net><02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> <48C20CCA.1000104@mayfco.com> <003101c90fe3$ec232990$6401a8c0@S> <48C296B3.4090609@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <000c01c91039$d13520b0$6401a8c0@S> This is probably a bit early to start arguing the minutia of the future decisions on head an neck restraints; but I couldn't help but do a little counting of records from the 2008 rule book. My counts are probably off by 2 or 3. For Bonneville cars there are 650 records of which 386 are over 200 mph (59%). Below 200 the counts are 150-200mph, 157 records. 100-150mph, 91 records. 0 to 100 mph, 16 records. And this count has little to do with the large number of participants in those classes (which helped provide the impetus to open a 3rd course this year). Arguably these guys running against under 200mph records are mostly lower budget operations. They will be hard hit by the cost of current head-neck restraint hardware that would produce only miniscule reductions in the risk of injury. Especially if this hardware needs to be replaced every 2 years. It would seem that slower speeds greatly reduce the risk of the kinds of injuries that we expect this new safety gear to protect us from. Also, the car type may have a big influence. An AA door slammer is a lot more likely to get airborn or roll than an H modified roadster. Another factor is differences in course conditions at different LSR venues. I trust the technical committee will carefully review SCTA accident records with that in mind (I understand that this data is far from being ready to release for "public" consumption). Perhaps a lower level of "G's" to protect against can be allowed for certain slower classes opening the door to less expensive approaches to this kind of safety gear in the same manner that we spec the ratings of tires required. Isaac's published comparative test data is instructive in that regard. Another consideration is that for lower risk classes the requirement for a head-neck restraint could me made "optional unless specifically required by the technical committee" due to individual circumstances at the time of inspection. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Well, looks to me like something will be required. The rules commitee > are skating around the issue and due to the nature of the event, they > generally come down on the side of safety. I think air bags would work > better. And why not?, We do not see HANS devices mandated by the > government on street cars because that would be costly. So we have > mandated frontal air bags. Actually, what I think is that I would > like the rules folks to stop taking care of me because they are going to > price me right out of racing. Whether by eventually retiring my dinky > car because it will cost too much to keep it in spec or by forcing me to > purchase so much personal safety equipment that I cannot afford that > either. I suspect many of us are in that situation. > mayf From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Sep 6 11:33:37 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:33:37 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <000c01c91039$d13520b0$6401a8c0@S> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net><02b201c90fc4$1a1525d0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><20080906041448.2600718766C@autox.team.net> <48C20CCA.1000104@mayfco.com> <003101c90fe3$ec232990$6401a8c0@S> <48C296B3.4090609@mayfco.com> <000c01c91039$d13520b0$6401a8c0@S> Message-ID: <48C2BEF1.3000305@mayfco.com> I am still curious as to what is driving this discussion this year. It was also discussed last year as well and we wound up withsome good lateral head restraints. Was there a paricular recent event that has caused a resurgence in the discussion? Some of the things that I wonder about are the designs specs. When I look to the current level of HANS the speeds of the vehicles are around 200 mph given that nascar and the other track circuit cars probably purchase most of them. So are the ones we might use going to have capabilities at 300 mph or higher? The energy requiremts are moe than double in that case. So will the unit that has the carbon fiber back board be strong enough at 300 mph? What about 250 or 325? Is the club willing to tell us what the minimum design requirements are? Ie how many G's should the unit be able to withstand in prevening head forward snap? Can the club tell us how to mount the restraints for LSR racing? Will any of the manufacturers of implements back up their systems at speeds greater than which they may have been designed for? If we have system designed by an owner how will the club approve it? How will they evaluate the restraint capability? How will they facor in such things as seat layback, seat belt stretch or give, or the lanyard attachments for the helmet? How will they factor in the mass of a helmet and head in assuring that the installed unit will function as expected? Will Deist or Stroud or any of the other manufacturers stand behind their products? If not, why should we use them? Lots to consider here. I like to think that if a rule is hard and firm then the club needs to stand behind that as well. For instance if a specific device or kind of device is mandated then the club, whether NASCAR or SCTA should stand behind that product and be responsible when it fails to do it's job. Interesting stuff.. mayf Ed Weldon wrote: >This is probably a bit early to start arguing the minutia of the future >decisions on head an neck restraints; but I couldn't help but do a little >counting of records from the 2008 rule book. My counts are probably off by >2 or 3. For Bonneville cars there are 650 records of which 386 are over 200 >mph (59%). Below 200 the counts are 150-200mph, 157 records. 100-150mph, >91 records. 0 to 100 mph, 16 records. And this count has little to do with >the large number of participants in those classes (which helped provide the >impetus to open a 3rd course this year). > > snip From Joetimney at dol.net Sat Sep 6 12:01:52 2008 From: Joetimney at dol.net (Joe Timney) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:01:52 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <48C2C590.5090601@dol.net> As a factory trained Hans dealer, I would strongly advise to not attach the helmet to the cage. All of the restraint devises allow the helmet to follow the body forward, the Hans devise slides rearward over your shoulders as you move forward because of the belt stretch. I can send you the Hans CD showing what a 5 G hit looks like...it shows just how far the belts stretch. I couldn't believe how violent it is!!! In the SFI testing, Hans scored the best...they have the patent (soon to expire) on the anchor location. The R3 was next...they have a lower mounting point. The seat belts stretch so far that you really need to add 2 inches for upper helmet clearance to keep from injuring your neck from compression. I'll see if I can lift the video from the disc. Hope this helps. joe From wester6935 at comcast.net Sat Sep 6 12:50:21 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:50:21 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: Hans Device and Safety References: <19BF9DC9-B905-43B8-9481-C72630E1187E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6EC12DE3-AB4B-4F11-A49A-B1FDCD89CF19@comcast.net> > If you look at the speeds that are common in the venues that require > or strongly suggest the HANS device, they are usually under 230 > MPH. They are spec series where the driver protection is reviewed > by committee and decided on before each year of racing begins. > However, and I should capitalize the word, they are in competitions > where the driver is needing to look around at his competition. In > LSR the need for peripheral vision doesn't necessarily exist. The > fastest cars usually have quite narrow sight lines. Unsuspended > cars can cause additional vision problems due to the rough surface > of the track in use. (Is El Mirage rougher than Maxton?) Head and > even body movement has been addressed by the safety rules several > times in the last few years and 1/2" between a helmet and roll cage > padding barely allows for the vibration on any but an extremely > smooth surface. Building for the fastest speed in the class is > really addressing minimums since occasionally some class records get > bumped by 20% from year to year. Perhaps there is a need for a > device for LSR that is venue specific rather than the HANS which is > designed for a driver to be able to look around more. > > Wes From saltrat at pahrump.com Sat Sep 6 13:54:28 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:54:28 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48C2C590.5090601@dol.net> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <48C2C590.5090601@dol.net> Message-ID: <20080906195416.2241018764D@autox.team.net> Joe, Since you addressed this to me, you say not to fasten the helmet to the cage but in the same breath, you say the HANS device slides rearward. How does that happen and not restrain the helmet? Much like fastening it to the cage would. Upper helmet clearance is controlled by the 7 point harness which restricts upward body movement. Maybe fastening the helmet to the cage should only be done if a 7 point harness is used. What do you think? Thank you for your comments......I learn more each time. Skip At 11:01 AM 9/6/2008, Joe Timney wrote: >As a factory trained Hans dealer, I would strongly advise to not >attach the helmet to the cage. All of the restraint devises allow >the helmet to follow the body forward, the Hans devise slides >rearward over your shoulders as you move forward because of the belt stretch. > >I can send you the Hans CD showing what a 5 G hit looks like...it >shows just how far the belts stretch. I couldn't believe how violent it is!!! > >In the SFI testing, Hans scored the best...they have the patent >(soon to expire) on the anchor location. The R3 was next...they have >a lower mounting point. > >The seat belts stretch so far that you really need to add 2 inches >for upper helmet clearance to keep from injuring your neck from compression. > >I'll see if I can lift the video from the disc. >Hope this helps. >joe From Joetimney at dol.net Sat Sep 6 14:31:26 2008 From: Joetimney at dol.net (Joe Timney) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:31:26 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <20080906195420.C441B960808@barracuda.dol.net> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <48C2C590.5090601@dol.net> <20080906195420.C441B960808@barracuda.dol.net> Message-ID: <48C2E89E.4040707@dol.net> Skip, You need to see the video. Fastening the helmet to the cage will break your neck. The devise slows the helmet as your body moves forward. It is truly unbelievable how far forward you go even if your belts are tight...I asked so many questions, I think I was pissing them off. At the training session, one of the Nascar crash videos they showed was 1/3 the Earnhardt crash G-force, the driver glanced off the wall, completely bending the cheap(non-full containment style) Kirkey right shoulder wing straighten out, knocked off the driver's goggles which flew out the left window in front of the net. Send me your address and I'll send the disc to you. It comes with every Hans devise. joe From delsolid at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 15:14:44 2008 From: delsolid at gmail.com (John Romero) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 14:14:44 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48C2E89E.4040707@dol.net> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net> <20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <48C2C590.5090601@dol.net> <20080906195420.C441B960808@barracuda.dol.net> <48C2E89E.4040707@dol.net> Message-ID: Mayf, SCTA has been moving towards Hans style units for the last couple of years. Just a few years ago we were at horse collars and a high back seat. SCTA has recognized the limitations of these and suggested improvements. This year one of those improvements stopped being a suggestion and became mandatory. SCTA currently suggests a hans type device. In the future that type of device will (IMO) also stop being merely a suggestion. SCTA has basically acknowledged that these devices are still new and many of our cars don't fit the mold (literally) they were designed for so mandating a specific brand or model across the board would be silly and possibly dangerous. Hence the talk about an engineered solution for your car rather than a hard and firm make/model you must use. Hopefully at some point in the future a mature SFI spec will emerge that we can use as a guide. Until that time comes we simply have to play it by ear. From dlodom at charter.net Sat Sep 6 15:23:00 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 14:23:00 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <48C2C590.5090601@dol.net><20080906195420.C441B960808@barracuda.dol.net> <48C2E89E.4040707@dol.net> Message-ID: <000a01c91066$bdbdc910$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Does anyone have any real data of the G's we are getting in a LSR crash? I know the lawyers have this country so screwed up it is very hard to get the truth about any problems but I would also like to know the cause of death of Cliff Gullett at the BUB meet this week. He crashed at just about the same speed Gail did in our liner and she didn't even break a fingernail. I know what caused our crash but because there is a product involved I don't dare say or I'm sure some shyster lawyer will come looking to take everything I own. Sure would be nice if we could get the real story even if its written on the back of a brown paper bag full of disclaimers. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Timney" To: "Skip Higginbotham" ; "Land-speed List" Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Skip, > You need to see the video. Fastening the helmet to the cage will break > your neck. The devise slows the helmet as your body moves forward. It is > truly unbelievable how far forward you go even if your belts are > tight...I asked so many questions, I think I was pissing them off. > > At the training session, one of the Nascar crash videos they showed was > 1/3 the Earnhardt crash G-force, the driver glanced off the wall, > completely bending the cheap(non-full containment style) Kirkey right > shoulder wing straighten out, knocked off the driver's goggles which > flew out the left window in front of the net. > > Send me your address and I'll send the disc to you. It comes with every > Hans devise. > > > > joe From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Sat Sep 6 15:52:12 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 15:52:12 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 Message-ID: <00c301c9106a$d1deff00$6501a8c0@Glens> Speed Week 8-10 thru 8-16-09 World Finals 10- 7 thru 10-10-09 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 1989 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From joyseydevil at comcast.net Sat Sep 6 19:16:21 2008 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:16:21 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Message-ID: I'm open to be convinced otherwise but from what I've seen our necks tolerate high forward G's pretty well . I remember Michael Waltrip finding a hole in the front straight wall at Bristol and stopping instantly and walking away . Obviously Hans Devices work wonders in lateral impacts . In my streamliner where the drivers head can go only forward how much help is a Hans ? From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Sep 6 19:18:49 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:18:49 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 In-Reply-To: <00c301c9106a$d1deff00$6501a8c0@Glens> References: <00c301c9106a$d1deff00$6501a8c0@Glens> Message-ID: <48C32BF9.60001@mayfco.com> Can we make reservations yet? Are the hotel lines open? mayf, laughing out loud.. Glen Barrett wrote: >Speed Week 8-10 thru 8-16-09 > >World Finals 10- 7 thru 10-10-09 > >-- >I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. >SPAMfighter has removed 1989 spam emails to date. >Paying users do not have this message in their emails. >Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Sat Sep 6 20:11:30 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:11:30 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 References: <00c301c9106a$d1deff00$6501a8c0@Glens> <48C32BF9.60001@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c9108f$0b840920$6501a8c0@Glens> You can in Wells. LOL GB ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "Glen Barrett" Cc: "landspeed at autox.team.net" Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 > Can we make reservations yet? Are the hotel lines open? > > mayf, laughing out loud.. > Glen Barrett wrote: > >>Speed Week 8-10 thru 8-16-09 >> >>World Finals 10- 7 thru 10-10-09 >> >>-- >>I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. >>SPAMfighter has removed 1989 spam emails to date. >>Paying users do not have this message in their emails. >>Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len >>_______________________________________________ >>Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >>Land-speed mailing list >> >>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com >> >>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 1989 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Sep 6 21:23:15 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:23:15 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 In-Reply-To: <00cc01c9108f$0b840920$6501a8c0@Glens> References: <00c301c9106a$d1deff00$6501a8c0@Glens> <48C32BF9.60001@mayfco.com> <00cc01c9108f$0b840920$6501a8c0@Glens> Message-ID: <48C34923.7000205@mayfco.com> dang! All sold out already! maf Glen Barrett wrote: > You can in Wells. > LOL > GB > ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" > To: "Glen Barrett" > Cc: "landspeed at autox.team.net" > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 > > >> Can we make reservations yet? Are the hotel lines open? >> >> mayf, laughing out loud.. >> Glen Barrett wrote: >> >>> Speed Week 8-10 thru 8-16-09 >>> >>> World Finals 10- 7 thru 10-10-09 >>> >>> -- >>> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. >>> SPAMfighter has removed 1989 spam emails to date. >>> Paying users do not have this message in their emails. >>> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> >>> Land-speed mailing list >>> >>> You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com >>> >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From gmc6power at earthlink.net Sat Sep 6 21:24:05 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:24:05 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 References: <00c301c9106a$d1deff00$6501a8c0@Glens> <48C32BF9.60001@mayfco.com> <00cc01c9108f$0b840920$6501a8c0@Glens> Message-ID: <006101c91099$2f271160$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf> This is funny!!! a Doctor who can't afford a safety device but can guarentee a $100 a night room for a week 11 months in advance...Gotta love it................... > You can in Wells. > LOL > GB > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 > > >> Can we make reservations yet? Are the hotel lines open? >> >> mayf, laughing out loud.. From kturk at ala.net Sun Sep 7 07:18:55 2008 From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:18:55 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: Message-ID: <036f01c910ec$47bf5ea0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> ----- Actually John that's NOT correct... and the Hans only work fore and aft not laterally. The neck is a very fragile thing... and impacts aren't one of it's specialties Keith From Joetimney at dol.net Sun Sep 7 08:26:21 2008 From: Joetimney at dol.net (Joe Timney) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 10:26:21 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C3E48D.5010006@dol.net> That is the "ONLY" direction a Hans will help!!! Many other head restraint makers are telling people that their devise helps with side angles...it is not true!!! John Burk wrote: > In > my streamliner where the drivers head can go only forward how much help is a > Hans ? > _______________________________________________ From wester6935 at comcast.net Sun Sep 7 09:29:40 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 09:29:40 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 In-Reply-To: <006101c91099$2f271160$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf> References: <00c301c9106a$d1deff00$6501a8c0@Glens> <48C32BF9.60001@mayfco.com> <00cc01c9108f$0b840920$6501a8c0@Glens> <006101c91099$2f271160$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf> Message-ID: <30D4BB04-671D-4E8E-AEF0-321FE5302F13@comcast.net> Yeah, but after the earthquake in Wells earlier this year they are anxious to get reservations in advance in case there's no hotel eleven months from now. Wes On Sep 6, 2008, at 9:24 PM, J.D. Tone wrote: > This is funny!!! a Doctor who can't afford a safety device but can > guarentee > a $100 a night room for a week 11 months in advance...Gotta love > it................... > > > >> You can in Wells. >> LOL >> GB > >> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 >> >> >>> Can we make reservations yet? Are the hotel lines open? >>> >>> mayf, laughing out loud.. From sparky.2211 at cox.net Sun Sep 7 09:51:08 2008 From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (sparky.2211 at cox.net) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 8:51:08 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] SCTA / BNI race dates for 2009 In-Reply-To: <30D4BB04-671D-4E8E-AEF0-321FE5302F13@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20080907115108.95EN4.153981.imail@fed1rmwml35> LOL ---- Wester Potter wrote: > Yeah, but after the earthquake in Wells earlier this year they are > anxious to get reservations in advance in case there's no hotel eleven > months from now. > Wes From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Sun Sep 7 16:34:44 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:34:44 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <000a01c91066$bdbdc910$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> References: <15439.49201.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com><48C158F7.2040900@wildblue.net><20080905181612.627A0187665@autox.team.net> <48C2C590.5090601@dol.net><20080906195420.C441B960808@barracuda.dol.net> <48C2E89E.4040707@dol.net> <000a01c91066$bdbdc910$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <48C45704.8060707@wildblue.net> Interesting thought Doug. I'm going to ask my Attorney about how this king of information could be obtained. After all, everyone knows why White crashed and died. Note - that knowledge did not cause the world to come to an end. I'll let you know, Bryan Doug Odom wrote: > Does anyone have any real data of the G's we are getting in a LSR crash? > I know the lawyers have this country so screwed up it is very hard to get > the truth about any problems but I would also like to know the cause of > death of Cliff Gullett at the BUB meet this week. He crashed at just about > the same speed Gail did in our liner and she didn't even break a fingernail. > I know what caused our crash but because there is a product involved I don't > dare say or I'm sure some shyster lawyer will come looking to take > everything I own. Sure would be nice if we could get the real story even if > its written on the back of a brown paper bag full of disclaimers. > Doug Odom in big ditch From nt788 at comcast.net Sun Sep 7 18:35:36 2008 From: nt788 at comcast.net (nt788 at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 00:35:36 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Message-ID: <090820080035.21278.48C47357000E9EE40000531E2215551724C8C8C99B02@comcast.net> look on the hans site for numbers -------------- Original message -------------- From: Bryan Savage > Interesting thought Doug. > I'm going to ask my Attorney about how this king of information could > be obtained. > After all, everyone knows why White crashed and died. Note - that knowledge > did not cause the world to come to an end. > > I'll let you know, > Bryan > > > Doug Odom wrote: > > Does anyone have any real data of the G's we are getting in a LSR crash? > > I know the lawyers have this country so screwed up it is very hard to get > > the truth about any problems but I would also like to know the cause of > > death of Cliff Gullett at the BUB meet this week. He crashed at just about > > the same speed Gail did in our liner and she didn't even break a fingernail. > > I know what caused our crash but because there is a product involved I don't > > dare say or I'm sure some shyster lawyer will come looking to take > > everything I own. Sure would be nice if we could get the real story even if > > its written on the back of a brown paper bag full of disclaimers. > > Doug Odom in big ditch > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From dlodom at charter.net Sun Sep 7 20:19:26 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:19:26 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <090820080035.21278.48C47357000E9EE40000531E2215551724C8C8C99B02@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00e001c91159$545c5ab0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> OK I went to the hansdevice web site. After looking at I think every page I never found any G force numbers for LSR type racing cars. Where did they test? Who's cars did they use? When did they do it? I go back to the very first question of my email " Does anyone have any real data on the G's we are getting in a LSR crash?" Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: nt788 at comcast.net To: Bryan Savage ; Doug Odom Cc: Land-speed List ; Joe Timney Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety look on the hans site for numbers -------------- Original message -------------- From: Bryan Savage > Interesting thought Doug. > I'm going to ask my Attorney about how this king of information could > be obtained. > After all, everyone knows why White crashed and died. Note - that knowledge > did not cause the world to come to an end. > > I'll let you know, > Bryan > > > Doug Odom wrote: > > Does anyone have any real data of the G's we are getting in a LSR crash? > > I know the lawyers have this country so screwed up it is very hard to get > > the truth about any problems but I would also like to know the cause of > > death of Cliff Gullett at the BUB meet this week. He crashed at just about > > the same speed Gail did in our liner and she didn't even break a fing ernail. > > I know what caused our crash but because there is a product involved I don't > > dare say or I'm sure some shyster lawyer will come looking to take > > everything I own. Sure would be nice if we could get the real story even if > > its written on the back of a brown paper bag full of disclaimers. > > Doug Odom in big ditch > _______________________________________________ From 23.weldon at comcast.net Sun Sep 7 22:12:47 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 21:12:47 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <090820080035.21278.48C47357000E9EE40000531E2215551724C8C8C99B02@comcast.net> <00e001c91159$545c5ab0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <002401c91169$2a7c7e90$6401a8c0@S> Doug-- A lot of decisions on head-neck protection can be data driven. Some types of data are easier to get than others. One type we don't have much of is "g" levels experienced by car AND driver during LSR crash events. Our crashes are somewhat different from what the circle track racers experience. A good number of LSR cars record engine performance with data logging equipment. I suspect that information has had very limited, if any, use in SCTA investigations. I wonder if the Shockwatch folks: http://www.shockwatch.com/ have a low cost product that would be of any use here. They have a product called "Micro Shocklog" that looks like a possibility. Nascar has been using a "black box" type product from Independent Witness: www.iwiwitness.com/ for several years to capture "g" levels in crashes. I have no idea what this stuff costs; and the cost is likely in the chump change range for a Nascar team. Is there a place for that kind of stuff in in LSR? For maybe the faster cars? I'm not sure we're ready to accept a mandate to install another expensive piece of safety related gear in our cars what with next year's likely requirement to spend in the $700-$1000 range for head neck restraints. Nevertheless the data accumulated would be valuable for us. Maybe we'd be lucky and take way too long to get that data. Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Odom" To: Cc: "Land-speed List" Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > OK I went to the hansdevice web site. After looking at I think every page I > never found any G force numbers for LSR type racing cars. Where did they test? > Who's cars did they use? When did they do it? > > I go back to the very first question of my email " Does anyone have any real > data on the G's we are getting in a LSR crash?" > > Doug Odom in big ditch > ----- Original Message ----- > From: nt788 at comcast.net > To: Bryan Savage ; Doug Odom > Cc: Land-speed List ; Joe Timney > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 5:35 PM > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > > > look on the hans site for numbers > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Bryan Savage > > > Interesting thought Doug. > > I'm going to ask my Attorney about how this king of information could > > be obtained. > > After all, everyone knows why White crashed and died. Note - that > knowledge > > did not cause the world to come to an end. > > I'll let you know,Bryan > > Doug Odom wrote: > > > Does anyone have any real data of the G's we are getting in a LSR > crash? From jon.the.wise at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 00:32:23 2008 From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jon Bishop) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 23:32:23 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] White Lightning? Message-ID: I was discussing on the EV discussion list about using AA batteries for power storage. The conversation has been interesting, but the results were that someone's already done it, and it does work (good for me, cause I am still considering it for my eclipse). I was hoping that perhaps the makers of that car might be on this list, and willing to help me figure some stuff out. My goals are slightly different (top speed around 75mph, rather than 245mph, range of 50-70 miles rather than 5-7) but I think the AA cells are definately a workable solution to my power storage issue (lead acid batteries weigh too much). Was anybody on list involved with the White Lightning build, or can you get me in touch with someone that was? Thanks! ~Jon From jon.the.wise at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 01:44:55 2008 From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jon Bishop) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 00:44:55 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] White Lightning? In-Reply-To: <8CB01688-F1C3-4CAD-803B-C08593109BE8@comcast.net> References: <8CB01688-F1C3-4CAD-803B-C08593109BE8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <324A81FE-6861-464F-A97A-44CCE62882E1@gmail.com> On Sep 8, 2008, at 12:27 AM, Wester Potter wrote: > You could possibly get some answers from: > > Perry W. Carter > Assoc. Prof. > Manufacturing Engineering Technology > School of Technology > 265 CTB > Brigham Young University > 801-422-2901 > > He heads up a student project car, an EV1 that was donated to the > university by General Motors. They have been drag racing it. > Started with Optima batteries and then moved on to two large > banks of capacitors. Bumped their quarter mile speeds from > the low seventies to the nineties. > They have been looking at batteries to power their E1 class > electric streamliner. > > Wes Thanks Wes. Not exactly what I had in mind though. As for batteries, in regards to lead acid, the exide orbitals are the most popular for EV builders right now. I'll have to talk to Perry, see if he's tried running the batteries in parallel to the capacitors... but again, not what I was looking for... What I'm looking for is some info on how they built their battery packs in the white lightning. The car used over 6,000 NiMH AA batteries. I just wanted to know how they arranged them, how the hookups were made, and so on. Thanks again! ~Jon From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Sep 8 12:17:59 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:17:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <00e001c91159$545c5ab0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> References: <090820080035.21278.48C47357000E9EE40000531E2215551724C8C8C99B02@comcast.net> <00e001c91159$545c5ab0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <48C56C57.6090200@wildblue.net> Doug In my opinion , that data does not exist. Modeling would not be possible because data on past crashes has probably been destroyed , if not , it is not available anyway. Too bad. In my opinion, data about past crashes would allow safer cars. As it is, generic rule changes are made based on the SCTA's decision. I don't know if anyone on the board is s Mech. Engineer, but I think better idea's would come from the 300-400 participants than a dozen well meaning folks sitting around a table. IBM had a project in the early '70's and management didn't want to spend money to improve it because they plans to stop selling and support it. It was opened to the customers for suggestions and we got a flood of code from our customers that they had written to meet their needs. The customers improved the product so much that it is still in service and making IBM money. That's what happens when you get a large number of interested and involved people solving problems. Just my opinion folks, Bryan Doug Odom wrote: > OK I went to the hansdevice web site. After looking at I think every page I > never found any G force numbers for LSR type racing cars. Where did they test? > Who's cars did they use? When did they do it? > > I go back to the very first question of my email " Does anyone have any real > data on the G's we are getting in a LSR crash?" > > Doug Odom in big ditch From saltrat at pahrump.com Mon Sep 8 14:37:18 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:37:18 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48C56C57.6090200@wildblue.net> References: <090820080035.21278.48C47357000E9EE40000531E2215551724C8C8C99B02@comcast.net> <00e001c91159$545c5ab0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> <48C56C57.6090200@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <20080908203704.C8AD7187660@autox.team.net> Bryan, My data logger has accelerometer capability fore/aft and lateral. Why wouldn't that work in the event of an upset? Has anyone looked at their data logger to see? Skip At 11:17 AM 9/8/2008, Bryan Savage wrote: >Doug > >In my opinion , that data does not exist. Modeling would not be possible >because data on past crashes has probably been destroyed , if not , it is >not available anyway. >Too bad. In my opinion, data about past crashes would allow safer cars. >As it is, generic rule changes are made based on the SCTA's decision. >I don't know if anyone on the board is s Mech. Engineer, but I think >better idea's would come from the 300-400 participants than a dozen >well meaning folks sitting around a table. >IBM had a project in the early '70's and management didn't want to spend >money to improve it because they plans to stop selling and support it. >It was >opened to the customers for suggestions and we got a flood of code from >our customers that they had written to meet their needs. The customers >improved the product so much that it is still in service and making IBM >money. >That's what happens when you get a large number of interested and involved >people solving problems. > >Just my opinion folks, > >Bryan > > > > >Doug Odom wrote: > > OK I went to the hansdevice web site. After looking at I think every page I > > never found any G force numbers for LSR type racing cars. Where > did they test? > > Who's cars did they use? When did they do it? > > > > I go back to the very first question of my email " Does anyone > have any real > > data on the G's we are getting in a LSR crash?" > > > > Doug Odom in big ditch >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as saltrat at pahrump.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Mon Sep 8 14:39:40 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:39:40 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Message-ID: <20080908203926.ABCF1187660@autox.team.net> Bryan, My data logger has accelerometer capability fore/aft and lateral. Why wouldn't that work in the event of an upset? Has anyone looked at their data logger to see? Skip At 11:17 AM 9/8/2008, Bryan Savage wrote: >Doug > >In my opinion , that data does not exist. Modeling would not be possible >because data on past crashes has probably been destroyed , if not , it is >not available anyway. >Too bad. In my opinion, data about past crashes would allow safer cars. >As it is, generic rule changes are made based on the SCTA's decision. >I don't know if anyone on the board is s Mech. Engineer, but I think >better idea's would come from the 300-400 participants than a dozen >well meaning folks sitting around a table. >IBM had a project in the early '70's and management didn't want to spend >money to improve it because they plans to stop selling and support it. >It was >opened to the customers for suggestions and we got a flood of code from >our customers that they had written to meet their needs. The customers >improved the product so much that it is still in service and making IBM >money. >That's what happens when you get a large number of interested and involved >people solving problems. > >Just my opinion folks, > >Bryan From dlodom at charter.net Mon Sep 8 15:13:12 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:13:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <20080908203926.MYDK163.aarpub05.charter.net@smtp.air-internet.com> Message-ID: <015f01c911f7$b3f8a160$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> That should be a question the people at the crash ask. "Does your data logger have the accelerometer input?" We didn't have ours hooked up because we were just making an easy run to get the feel of the car. I guess 240mph does not sound like an easy run but it was. Doug Odom in big ditch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Bryan Savage" ; "Doug Odom" Cc: "Land-speed List" Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety > Bryan, > My data logger has accelerometer capability fore/aft and lateral. Why > wouldn't that work in the event of an upset? Has anyone looked at their > data logger to see? > Skip > > > > At 11:17 AM 9/8/2008, Bryan Savage wrote: >>Doug >> >>In my opinion , that data does not exist. Modeling would not be possible >>because data on past crashes has probably been destroyed , if not , it is >>not available anyway. >>Too bad. In my opinion, data about past crashes would allow safer cars. >>As it is, generic rule changes are made based on the SCTA's decision. >>I don't know if anyone on the board is s Mech. Engineer, but I think >>better idea's would come from the 300-400 participants than a dozen >>well meaning folks sitting around a table. >>IBM had a project in the early '70's and management didn't want to spend >>money to improve it because they plans to stop selling and support it. >>It was >>opened to the customers for suggestions and we got a flood of code from >>our customers that they had written to meet their needs. The customers >>improved the product so much that it is still in service and making IBM >>money. >>That's what happens when you get a large number of interested and involved >>people solving problems. >> >>Just my opinion folks, >> >>Bryan From lona at finishlinecoatings.com Mon Sep 8 15:14:59 2008 From: lona at finishlinecoatings.com (lona jensen) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:14:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rental of car Message-ID: <48C595D3.8050305@finishlinecoatings.com> Hi Guys Awhile ago someone on the list indicated there is a car rental place that will "rent" to take out on the salt for World of Speed. Could somebody give me the name ?? Thank you Lona Jensen From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org Mon Sep 8 16:30:05 2008 From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Rental of car In-Reply-To: <48C595D3.8050305@finishlinecoatings.com> References: <48C595D3.8050305@finishlinecoatings.com> Message-ID: <8557141E-17D1-443E-8AAC-717173341A71@nancyandjon.org> On Sep 8, 2008, at 5:14 PM, lona jensen wrote: Hi Guys Awhile ago someone on the list indicated there is a car rental place that will "rent" to take out on the salt for World of Speed. Could somebody give me the name ?? Thank you Lona Jensen Rent a Wreck, in SLC. Tony and Todd are the guys that work there. 801 363 4994. But don't reserve the one that I've got dibs on for Todd, our crew chief, okay? Jon a/k/a S S S From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Mon Sep 8 17:37:07 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:37:07 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48c58cf0.1ebc720a.374b.2102SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <090820080035.21278.48C47357000E9EE40000531E2215551724C8C8C99B02@comcast.net> <00e001c91159$545c5ab0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> <48C56C57.6090200@wildblue.net> <48c58cf0.1ebc720a.374b.2102SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <48C5B723.4040703@wildblue.net> Skip, I also have a two axis accelerometer but it's max is 2 G's. What would be needed would be a three axis, X + Y + Z, 100G accelerometer. That would do it. Bryan Skip Higginbotham wrote: > Bryan, > My data logger has accelerometer capability fore/aft and lateral. Why > wouldn't that work in the event of an upset? Has anyone looked at > their data logger to see? > Skip From neil at dbelltech.com Mon Sep 8 18:11:18 2008 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:11:18 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <48C5B723.4040703@wildblue.net> References: <090820080035.21278.48C47357000E9EE40000531E2215551724C8C8C99B02@comcast.net><00e001c91159$545c5ab0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA><48C56C57.6090200@wildblue.net><48c58cf0.1ebc720a.374b.2102SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <48C5B723.4040703@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <29080E4460504B48A6A0C2BA7EE3BF6D@DBTech> Bryan, Skip; Single-axis accelerometers are catalog items: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T083/P2451.pdf There are +/-50, 70, 120, & 250G models listed along with a +/-150 & 300 degree/second IC "rate gyro". Of course the data acquisition & storage system needs to survive the crash as well as function during it. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Savage Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 4:37 PM To: Skip Higginbotham Cc: Land-speed List Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Skip, I also have a two axis accelerometer but it's max is 2 G's. What would be needed would be a three axis, X + Y + Z, 100G accelerometer. That would do it. Bryan Skip Higginbotham wrote: > Bryan, > My data logger has accelerometer capability fore/aft and lateral. Why > wouldn't that work in the event of an upset? Has anyone looked at > their data logger to see? > Skip Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltfevr at q.com Tue Sep 9 04:58:07 2008 From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 04:58:07 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Rental of car In-Reply-To: <48C595D3.8050305@finishlinecoatings.com> References: <48C595D3.8050305@finishlinecoatings.com> Message-ID: Lona; Rent a Wreck in Salt Lake, ask for Tony.Tom ShannonMagna, Utah> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:14:59 -0700> From: lona at finishlinecoatings.com> To: land-speed at autox.team.net> Subject: [Land-speed] Rental of car> > Hi Guys> Awhile ago someone on the list indicated there is a car rental place > that will "rent" to take out on the salt for World of Speed.> Could somebody give me the name ??> Thank you> Lona Jensen> _______________________________________________> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From Jimwprice at aol.com Tue Sep 9 07:24:18 2008 From: Jimwprice at aol.com (Jimwprice at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:24:18 EDT Subject: [Land-speed] Sparky's great adventure Message-ID: Sparky is wondering if he is the first un blown lakester to make a pass in the three's. It seems unlikely, but possible, that Tavis Hammond could have set the B fuel record at 298 without exceeding the magic number. Do any LSR historians have access to the qualifying and backup runs from her record in 2000? **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From lona at finishlinecoatings.com Tue Sep 9 09:53:06 2008 From: lona at finishlinecoatings.com (lona jensen) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 08:53:06 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Rent a Wreck Message-ID: <48C69BE2.5000705@finishlinecoatings.com> Hi Thanks for the referral for the rental car. I knew you'd come through once again. Lona Jensen From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Sep 9 12:30:45 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:30:45 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. Message-ID: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> We now have a requirement for lateral head restraints which limit the side to side head movement to less than 2 inches on each side. In my case that was pretty doable. I purchased the 45.2 SFI foam from ISP and the owner told me how to mold and shape it to fit my car. That seemed to have worked out well for me. Longitudinal head restraint is what we have all been chattering away at ala the Head And Neck Support or HANS device. I know there are places where I can purchase just the lanyards which attach to my helmet and then to some sort of structure. Those work but in our particular scenarios, may themselves cause some isues. For instance, in the case of a fire in the cockpit, I could envision a situation where the release straps themselves are burned off to the point where a panicky driver could not find the release lanyards or get out of the cage because he could not get his head out as it is tethered to structure. Even those which have the back board strapped to the driver may not offer enough forward movement to get out in the lanyards are not released. Now, how about a latching mechanism ala our seat belts? Our lap restraints in our street vehcilels have belts with inertia mechanisms which lock up when a load (impact) happens. Could somehing like that be adapted to prevent forward whip lash by ataching to the helmet? I could see something like this with a bit of development. Also there are inertia switches on virtually every new car made today to kill the fuel pump for the EFI. Could that switch be adapted to latch a head restraint in the event of impact and then release so many seconds after that? This also seens to be a configuration which is doable. The reason I hate to have my head restraints be unuseable by me in getting out of the car is the same reason given for the use of an SFI /20 fore suit. The time it takes for the safety crews to get to me. I have to be self sufficient for some amount of time. That means if I am trapped in the cage, on fire with the release sraps damaged to the pooint where I cannot find or use them, I may in fact burn to death in the car. That would be a bad day. On the various venues where the track is roughly circular the time for safety to arrive is significantly shortened and that is of less concern. So, are there alternatives to the HANS device that might be useable? I think the BNI and USFRA should take the lead in researching this issue, because they have the longest venues (11 miles?) and then perhaps issuing some requests to companies for development of a device specific to our sport. Any additional thoughts? mayf, rested up now, headed back to the front yard to whip the jungle into shape... From saltracer at awwwsome.com Tue Sep 9 14:20:12 2008 From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:20:12 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. References: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <48C6DA7C.00000C.00660@D3DP98F1> Here are the links that Lee Kennedy gave us to check. The Isaac is similar to the seat belt restraints. It lets you move about normally until impact when it locks up. It also appears to be functional laterally. http://www.djsafety.com/index.HTML http://www.isaacdirect.com/index.HTML http://www.leatt-brace.ca/index.HTML Tom, Redding CA - #216 D/FCC [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of newimage.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_animation_panda_en_020908.gif] From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Sep 9 20:12:22 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:12:22 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Bombing the list.. Message-ID: <48C72D06.7020706@mayfco.com> Ed Van Scoy...gimme a call please? 1-775-537-6280...need a favor... mayf From 23.weldon at comcast.net Tue Sep 9 22:06:03 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 21:06:03 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. References: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <000c01c912fa$8dd68520$6401a8c0@S> Mayf-- I like your line of thinking. Pick components from the mass production automotive technology we already have today. The idea that the device should only be active under actual crash conditions and then automatically revert to passive or at least non-interfering afterward makes a lot of sense for us as it did to automotive engineers many years ago when they first started looking beyond simple seatbelts to improve vehicle safety. Do we really understand what forces, moments, impulses and accelerations the head, neck and upper torso can tolerate? That's probably the place to start. There are beginnings of that in some of the device manufacturer's websites. This all sort of makes me wish I could be back in the working world with a budget to spend on R&D in this direction. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:30 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. (snip) > Now, how about a latching mechanism ala our seat belts? Our lap > restraints in our street vehicles have belts with inertia mechanisms > which lock up when a load (impact) happens. Could something like that be > adapted to prevent forward whip lash by attaching to the helmet? I could > see something like this with a bit of development. Also there are > inertia switches on virtually every new car made today to kill the fuel > pump for the EFI. Could that switch be adapted to latch a head restraint > in the event of impact and then release so many seconds after that? > This also seens to be a configuration which is doable. (snip) > Any additional thoughts? > mayf, rested up now, headed back to the front yard to whip the jungle > into shape... From jolylance at earthlink.net Tue Sep 9 22:26:18 2008 From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:26:18 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. References: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> <000c01c912fa$8dd68520$6401a8c0@S> Message-ID: <000a01c912fd$67022730$2101a8c0@WinXP> This is an interesting subject. I don't have any direct LSR experience to contribute but it reminds me that NFL football players experience instantaneous impacts of 75 g or so. Wonder what g-forces Bronko Nagurski experienced when he decked a horse or ran head first into that wall and cracked some bricks. Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> To: ; "LSR" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. > Mayf-- I like your line of thinking. Pick components from the mass > production automotive technology we already have today. The idea that the > device should only be active under actual crash conditions and then > automatically revert to passive or at least non-interfering afterward > makes > a lot of sense for us as it did to automotive engineers many years ago > when > they first started looking beyond simple seatbelts to improve vehicle > safety. > Do we really understand what forces, moments, impulses and accelerations > the > head, neck and upper torso can tolerate? That's probably the place to > start. There are beginnings of that in some of the device manufacturer's > websites. > This all sort of makes me wish I could be back in the working world with a > budget to spend on R&D in this direction. > Ed From rbuck at xmission.com Tue Sep 9 22:44:20 2008 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:44:20 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. In-Reply-To: <000a01c912fd$67022730$2101a8c0@WinXP> References: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> <000c01c912fa$8dd68520$6401a8c0@S> <000a01c912fd$67022730$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: At 10:26 PM 9/9/2008, joseph lance wrote: >This is an interesting subject. I don't have any direct LSR experience to >contribute but it reminds me that NFL football players experience >instantaneous impacts of 75 g or so. > >Wonder what g-forces Bronko Nagurski experienced when he decked a horse or >ran head first into that wall and cracked some bricks. Apparently not enough to knock some sense into him. :) RtR From drmayf at mayfco.com Wed Sep 10 09:32:10 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:32:10 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Bombing the list for a Favor... Message-ID: <48C7E87A.7040206@mayfco.com> Folks, my youngest child, now in Huntsville, Alabammy, has an opportunity to transfer to Meas, Az to work on the Apache helicopter programs there. He has absolutley no knowledge of that area, what it is like, stuff for a 26 year old to do, cost of livng rental, and utility wise. He has to make a fairly rapid decision. If any of you that live in that area could you contact me of list I will pass along Phillip's work number for you to call? I woud be eternally greatful. mayf From sparky.2211 at cox.net Wed Sep 10 10:06:08 2008 From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (sparky.2211 at cox.net) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 9:06:08 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Bombing the list for a Favor... In-Reply-To: <48C7E87A.7040206@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <20080910120608.1MNDR.213701.imail@fed1rmwml35> All he needs to Know it is next door to Tempe---home of ASU---LOL ---- drmayf wrote: > Folks, my youngest child, now in Huntsville, Alabammy, has an > opportunity to transfer to Meas, Az to work on the Apache helicopter > programs there. He has absolutley no knowledge of that area, what it is > like, stuff for a 26 year old to do, cost of livng rental, and utility > wise. He has to make a fairly rapid decision. If any of you that live > in that area could you contact me of list I will pass along Phillip's > work number for you to call? I woud be eternally greatful. > > mayf > _______________________________________________ From neil at dbelltech.com Wed Sep 10 10:18:39 2008 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:18:39 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. In-Reply-To: <000a01c912fd$67022730$2101a8c0@WinXP> References: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> <000c01c912fa$8dd68520$6401a8c0@S> <000a01c912fd$67022730$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: <67BC85FE602F464A85CB28A96CED0886@DBTech> Lance; The body can stand high G forces but for only a very short duration. If the G forces act over a longer time then the ability to withstand them becomes greatly reduced. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of joseph lance Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:26 PM To: Ed Weldon; drmayf at mayfco.com; LSR Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. This is an interesting subject. I don't have any direct LSR experience to contribute but it reminds me that NFL football players experience instantaneous impacts of 75 g or so. Wonder what g-forces Bronko Nagurski experienced when he decked a horse or ran head first into that wall and cracked some bricks. Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> To: ; "LSR" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. > Mayf-- I like your line of thinking. Pick components from the mass > production automotive technology we already have today. The idea that the > device should only be active under actual crash conditions and then > automatically revert to passive or at least non-interfering afterward > makes > a lot of sense for us as it did to automotive engineers many years ago > when > they first started looking beyond simple seatbelts to improve vehicle > safety. > Do we really understand what forces, moments, impulses and accelerations > the > head, neck and upper torso can tolerate? That's probably the place to > start. There are beginnings of that in some of the device manufacturer's > websites. > This all sort of makes me wish I could be back in the working world with a > budget to spend on R&D in this direction. > Ed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From gmc6power at earthlink.net Wed Sep 10 11:58:24 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:58:24 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Bombing the list for a Favor... Message-ID: <17257436.1221069505038.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Chandler has a great Drag Strip. My brother-in-law says the summers are hot. He lives in Gilbert and works in Mesa....Good Luck > >All he needs to Know it is next door to Tempe---home of ASU---LOL From jolylance at earthlink.net Wed Sep 10 14:15:45 2008 From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:15:45 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. References: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> <000c01c912fa$8dd68520$6401a8c0@S> <000a01c912fd$67022730$2101a8c0@WinXP> <67BC85FE602F464A85CB28A96CED0886@DBTech> Message-ID: <000a01c91382$08665450$2101a8c0@WinXP> Neil; Thats true to a certain extent but the short duration impacts can still be very harmful and the harm may not be immediately apparent. I'm thinking that repeated NFL and boxing impacts leading to concussions, joint injuries, etc. may be quite similar to getting rattled around in an LSR roll cage during a crash even if the crash is survived. Maybe the sports medicine people can help with increased LSR safety. Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'joseph lance'" ; "'Ed Weldon'" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; ; "'LSR'" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 12:18 PM Subject: RE: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. > Lance; > > The body can stand high G forces but for only a very short duration. If > the > G forces act over a longer time then the ability to withstand them becomes > greatly reduced. > > Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ From 23.weldon at comcast.net Wed Sep 10 15:34:52 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:34:52 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. References: <48C6C0D5.3070603@mayfco.com> <000c01c912fa$8dd68520$6401a8c0@S><000a01c912fd$67022730$2101a8c0@WinXP><67BC85FE602F464A85CB28A96CED0886@DBTech> <000a01c91382$08665450$2101a8c0@WinXP> Message-ID: <002701c9138d$13fb69d0$6401a8c0@S> Neil & Lance-- Good points here. Springs (like stretchy belts) with minimal dampening are unable to absorb the energy that will accompany a long duration crash event. For that you need a fluid damper that converts mechanical energy to heat an internal fluid. This is especially true if the rate of impacts is anywhere near one of the natural frequencies of the driver's safety constraint system. I think some combination of shock isolation with elastic members and one shot energy absorbers and energy absorption with dampening members ("shock absorbers" of one type or another) is going to be the future of this new technology. Most of the current head-neck restraint approaches depend on the former. Isaacs, as far as I can tell without looking inside those things, is all the latter. This may prove OK, crude as it is from an engineering standpoint. But the Isaacs approach is going to eventually have to ditch the idea of requiring the driver to do something else besides unhook a multipoint harness in order to get out of the seat. Especially where fire or suffocation is part of the hazard menu. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "joseph lance" To: "LAND-SPEED @ AUTOX.TEAM .NET" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. > Neil; > Thats true to a certain extent but the short duration impacts can still be > very harmful and the harm may not be immediately apparent. > I'm thinking that repeated NFL and boxing impacts leading to concussions, > joint injuries, etc. may be quite similar to getting rattled around in an > LSR roll cage during a crash even if the crash is survived. > Maybe the sports medicine people can help with increased LSR safety. > Lance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "'joseph lance'" ; "'Ed Weldon'" > <23.weldon at comcast.net>; ; "'LSR'" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 12:18 PM > Subject: RE: [Land-speed] Head Restraints...another concept. > > Lance; > > The body can stand high G forces but for only a very short duration. If > > the G forces act over a longer time then the ability to withstand them becomes > > greatly reduced. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ From dlodom at charter.net Wed Sep 10 16:11:13 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:11:13 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] =?iso-8859-1?q?AQUALARM_=3A=3A_20114_Remote_Fire_Det?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ector_-_190=B0F_=2431=2E00?= Message-ID: <019701c91392$25b8a2a0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> List, Anyone looking for a 12v fire alarm here is the kind we used at Bonneville and it worked. $31 bucks and easy to install. Doug Odom in big ditch > > https://www.aqualarm.net/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=49 From saltfever at comcast.net Thu Sep 11 04:05:03 2008 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 03:05:03 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety Message-ID: <190B2F787C8445DE8C4554133D7E4FA0@dim8100> A lot of comments have been essentially "where is the data", "what are the G forces", etc. If you go to the Isaac site http://www.isaacdirect.com and follow some of the links and watch the videos you will get a lot of answers. There is even a power point presentation of an SAE paper. The slides clearly show the forces for various devices in a 30 degree, 50 G sled test. If you read some of the racer testimonials you will get real world feedback. You can download an SAE paper ($14.00) that consolidates much sled and crash test data from many and various sources. There is not a lack of information as so far been suggested. >From the Isaac site: Extensive comparative testing was conducted during the summer of 2002 and the summer and fall of 2005, the results of which were presented at the SAE's Motor Sports Engineering Conference in December 2006 and are available as an SAE technical paper (Paper number 2006-01-3631). Also available is the SAE technical paper titled "The Use of Dashpots in the Prevention of Basilar Skull Fractures" (Paper number 2002-01-3306), which describes the development of the IsaacR head and neck system. These papers can be downloaded from the SAE web site for a modest copyright charge. The SAE paper abstract says. . . "Unpublished testing using the same protocol was conducted on the Wright Pro Harness design and the White Device in 2002, and two variations of the Isaac sR design in 2005. Additional testing was conducted on the White Device, two Isaac sR designs and the HANS sR device using a protocol of 30 degree offset, 43.5 mph (70 kph) velocity change and a nominal 68G acceleration." Here is the link to purchase the paper. http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=PAPER &PROD_CD=2006-01-3631 -Elon From saltfever at comcast.net Thu Sep 11 15:39:01 2008 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:39:01 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition Message-ID: I posted the following on landracing.com however, I don't see any of the regulars on this list commenting. My posting was in response to all the recent comments on this LSR list about the Hans device. I thought posting to landracing.com would be exposure to a larger audience with the corresponding larger feedback. However, and surprisingly, only 3 bike racers replied. So I am re-posting my comments here. "I think there is more or less agreement that collecting the best engineering data from an accident helps everybody. SCTA already does accident analysis that is not shared. And that information may or may not result in changes or additions to rule book safety regulations. So the question is; who should be responsible for accident Data Acquisition System (DAQ) if the information is never shared. The high cost of safety equipment has already been mentioned and a black box would be too costly a requirement for every racer. However, SCTA could create their own DAQ. It could be installed into each car on the starting line and removed at a collecting point on the return road to be brought back to the line. It would not take many units to keep up with the flow of traffic. A simple, flat plate mounting base would cost the racer nothing to add to his cage. With clever design the DAQ could be held in with locking DeStaco clamps or over-center devices. Design intent would be an installation in 10-15 seconds. It would have its own self contained battery power (charged at night) and a SD or CF card. The card would be removed after an accident". From dlodom at charter.net Thu Sep 11 15:52:23 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:52:23 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety References: <190B2F787C8445DE8C4554133D7E4FA0@dim8100> Message-ID: <001801c91458$aeb69a50$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Elon, There seems to be some confusion about the "data". I for one was trying to find out if there was any "Real Data" on the G forces that LSR cars have experienced in their crashes. I know Indy cars routinely experience G Forces of 45 to 60 G's when they hit the outside or inside wall. We don't race Indy cars or NASCAR Stock cars or have walls to run into so their data is not totally useable. Drag race cars are closer to LSR cars in the lakester and streamliner classes and do use parachutes but they also have side walls to run into. Have we had any LSR crashes that resulted in a Basilar Skull Fracture? IMHO Each type of LSR vehicle has its own set of problems that need to be looked at and not a one size fits all approach. Doug Odom in big ditch From: "Elon" To: "'land-speed submit'" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:05 AM Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety >A lot of comments have been essentially "where is the data", "what are the >G > forces", etc. If you go to the Isaac site http://www.isaacdirect.com > and follow some of the links and watch the > videos you will get a lot of answers. There is even a power point > presentation of an SAE paper. The slides clearly show the forces for > various > devices in a 30 degree, 50 G sled test. If you read some of the racer > testimonials you will get real world feedback. You can download an SAE > paper ($14.00) that consolidates much sled and crash test data from many > and > various sources. There is not a lack of information as so far been > suggested. From karhu at california.com Thu Sep 11 16:02:39 2008 From: karhu at california.com (Benn) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:02:39 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition References: Message-ID: <83FD0E3CCE234E98B511C9D72FCEDA0F@BennsDesktop> Sounds good--who's designing it? The concept sounds good, and lots of accident investigators would use such a device, I think. I've witnessed lots of instrumented crashes, and the closest I've seen to what you're describing utilized an Edelbrock (I think) data acquisition system.....way bigger than a matchbox. And I'm not sure it had the 1000 hz x 6 channels sampling rate you'd probably want (x, y, z, pitch, roll, yaw). Benn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elon" To: "land-speed submit" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition >I posted the following on landracing.com however, I don't see any of the > regulars on this list commenting. My posting was in response to all the > recent comments on this LSR list about the Hans device. I thought posting > to > landracing.com would be exposure to a larger audience with the > corresponding > larger feedback. However, and surprisingly, only 3 bike racers replied. So > I > am re-posting my comments here. > > > > "I think there is more or less agreement that collecting the best > engineering data from an accident helps everybody. SCTA already does > accident analysis that is not shared. And that information may or may not > result in changes or additions to rule book safety regulations. So the > question is; who should be responsible for accident Data Acquisition > System > (DAQ) if the information is never shared. > > The high cost of safety equipment has already been mentioned and a black > box > would be too costly a requirement for every racer. However, SCTA could > create their own DAQ. It could be installed into each car on the starting > line and removed at a collecting point on the return road to be brought > back > to the line. It would not take many units to keep up with the flow of > traffic. A simple, flat plate mounting base would cost the racer nothing > to > add to his cage. With clever design the DAQ could be held in with locking > DeStaco clamps or over-center devices. Design intent would be an > installation in 10-15 seconds. It would have its own self contained > battery > power (charged at night) and a SD or CF card. The card would be removed > after an accident". > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as karhu at california.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From jdincau at qnet.com Thu Sep 11 16:07:24 2008 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:07:24 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ECA81166CE941798C787F6E693E1686@denpc> Elon, Given the low frequency of "accidental" data points and the great disparity of vehicle types it would take a decade to compile enough data to get meaningful results. Your suggestion that the association provide data recording would tax both the SCTA budget and volunteers to the extreme. Jim Dincau From saltfever at comcast.net Thu Sep 11 16:14:55 2008 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:14:55 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hans Device and Safety In-Reply-To: <001801c91458$aeb69a50$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <6A9188575FAB44B8B5667193DA32C11A@dim8100> Doug: Good point and clarification. Some comments were referring to the physical limits of the human body as well as the G forces attenuated by the various devices. That information is well quantified and readily available. Your point about lack of accelerometer data, specific to LSR is a good one. That is why I posted my "Accident Data Acquisition" comment today. 3 axis accelerometers, or "black box DAQ" are becoming robust and more reasonable in cost. Costs would still be too much for individuals but it might be within reach of an association seeking better information than currently. The venues you mention have already done such data collection at, I'm sure, great expense. I am not playing " safety vs cost" or cost/benefit here or making a criticism of any person or organization. All I'm pointing out is, instead of passing the costs along to individual racers, there may be a method of lowering the total DAQ cost by using a few units shared among everybody. -Elon -----Original Message----- From: Doug Odom Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:52 PM Elon, There seems to be some confusion about the "data". I for one was trying to find out if there was any "Real Data" on the G forces that LSR cars have experienced in their crashes. I know Indy cars routinely experience G Forces of 45 to 60 G's when they hit the outside or (snip . . . ) From jdincau at qnet.com Thu Sep 11 16:43:02 2008 From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:43:02 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Data aquisition In-Reply-To: <6A9188575FAB44B8B5667193DA32C11A@dim8100> References: <6A9188575FAB44B8B5667193DA32C11A@dim8100> Message-ID: <43B9B62EE21F4240BE3028730EEE8A5B@denpc> Elon. To expand on my taxing the limits of the SCTA comment. Let's say that everyone turned in the device he ran at the timing slip booth. To do otherwise would require someone on each course return road driving up and down because no one pulls off the course at the same place. After a run is made the push truck has to drive to the vehicle and get it back to the pickup point. This will take as much as half an hour for long course hard to retrieve vehicles. Now each black box can't be returned to the starting line individually so there willl have to be a reserve of units to allow for this. In the half hour there will be as many as 10 runs on each course plus 10 backups to allow for the aforementiond time delay. That means 60 boxes. Let's assume that we get a really good deal and each one only costs $500, that comes to $30,000. Next year there will no longer be black oil lines on the salt because it costs over $9,000 for the oil. We will also need six voulenteers on each course plus six more for shift changes and one rover for backups. These voulenteers wil need communications gear and training as batterys will need to be charged and unwanted data erased. The equipment will also need need maintenance and storage. Perhaps the University of Ohio could get a reaserch grant and the taxpayers could pay for it. Jim Dincau From saltfever at comcast.net Thu Sep 11 16:46:37 2008 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:46:37 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition In-Reply-To: <83FD0E3CCE234E98B511C9D72FCEDA0F@BennsDesktop> Message-ID: I agree Benn. It is not a trivial task and precisely why it might be worth looking into by an association rather than an individual racer. Even production vehicles now have some form of accelerometer data. Spreading design and fab costs over a few units, to be shared by many, might be desirable depending on how the new information could be used. -Elon -----Original Message----- From: Benn Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:03 PM Sounds good--who's designing it? (snip . . .) Edelbrock (I think) data acquisition system.....way bigger than a matchbox. And I'm not sure it had the 1000 hz x 6 channels sampling rate you'd probably want (x, y, z, pitch, roll, yaw). From 23.weldon at comcast.net Thu Sep 11 17:09:43 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:09:43 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Black Lines References: <6A9188575FAB44B8B5667193DA32C11A@dim8100> <43B9B62EE21F4240BE3028730EEE8A5B@denpc> Message-ID: <004201c91463$7c048a80$6401a8c0@S> Jim -- Would you please clarify the statement you made below. Was that something you know for fact, and association proposal, a rumor or just a hypothetical statement? Let's see........$9000 divided by 600 entrants (just for SW) = $15 per entrant. If that be real I vote to add a black line fee to the regular vehicle entry fee cause I plan to be running and I like those black lines, thank you!! Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Dincau" Cc: "land-speed submit" Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Data aquisition (snip) Next year there will no longer be black oil lines on > the salt because it costs over $9,000 for the oil. > Jim Dincau From BWANA343 at aol.com Thu Sep 11 17:42:20 2008 From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:42:20 EDT Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition Message-ID: I'm a "regular" lurker, occasional contributor, and forever newbie, but............... As long as DAQs would be an option, why not go all the way and use wireless telemetry ? The safety aspect info would be constantly transmitted and recorded at a central base, thereby negating the necessity for a bullet proof black box , and we could also finally have GPS speed records , installed in that same SCTA provided package ? Laying down and maintaining miles of wire would be a thing of the past, saving the volunteer cadre a lot of work. We've touched on this GPS idea before, but this DAQ deal seems to make it reasonable now. It's just a matter of one of the resident wizards on this list to get it all together. DD, you get to flame here.. BOB W **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Thu Sep 11 18:07:51 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:07:51 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition References: Message-ID: <003001c9146b$9965eda0$6501a8c0@Glens> Maybe Trump will sponsor it. SCTA doesn't have that kind of money. GB ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Accident Data Acquisition > I'm a "regular" lurker, occasional contributor, and forever newbie, > but............... > As long as DAQs would be an option, why not go all the way and use > wireless > telemetry ? > The safety aspect info would be constantly transmitted and recorded at a > central base, thereby negating the necessity for a bullet proof black box > , and > we could also finally have GPS speed records , installed in that same SCTA > provided package ? Laying down and maintaining miles of wire would be a > thing of > the past, saving the volunteer cadre a lot of work. > We've touched on this GPS idea before, but this DAQ deal seems to make it > reasonable now. > It's just a matter of one of the resident wizards on this list to get it > all > together. > DD, you get to flame here.. > BOB W > > > > **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion > blog, > plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 2026 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From saltfevr at q.com Thu Sep 11 22:21:14 2008 From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:21:14 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Black Lines In-Reply-To: <004d01c91468$6bc42220$6401a8c0@S> References: <6A9188575FAB44B8B5667193DA32C11A@dim8100> <43B9B62EE21F4240BE3028730EEE8A5B@denpc> <004201c91463$7c048a80$6401a8c0@S> <71AE76E6735E4FCD9E7A1E03339DB132@denpc> <004d01c91468$6bc42220$6401a8c0@S> Message-ID: Ed; Might I add it was always a pleasure to see the "boat mobile" come down "Burford Blvd" as you brought us course stewards cold drinks/snacks. Also hats off to relief guy, Pat Mcdowell,offering green room breaks & lunch! I've heard about the famed "Black Lines' maybe going away soon. BLM is definately pushing the envelope. USFRA for WOS has used orange or black garbage bag signs to help mark the courses,as Speedweek lines are sometimes blurred in spots. Sitting inside at the long course 5 mile, most racers turn out at 6 or 6 1/2 mile. Chuck Kalbach or Cris & Ed had a better view of the return road west side. Yes, some racers stop on the course or barely off, causing stewards to push/pull them clear. I'm all for better markers to hasten their safe turn outs. Tom ShannonMagna, Utah> From: 23.weldon at comcast.net> To: jdincau at qnet.com> CC: saltfevr at q.com> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Black Lines> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:44:59 -0700> > Jim -- I figured as much. Also I know what triggered the idea of the orange> and black cones. When I got done making my rounds in the afternoon I'd hang> out with one of the long course patrols at the 5, 6 or 7. I was amazed at> the number of fast cars (liners especially)that would just stop in the> middle of the course out there or just barely make it into the turnout.> Sure looked like the drivers (and these folks are not exactly rookies) had> trouble seeing the dragged turnouts at high speed. And I can understand not> wanting to hit a tight curve at speed in a narrow wheelbase car.> Seems to me that lines of more cones are going to get hit by the Laws of> Unintended Consequences. Like protracted course shut downs to herd cones> that have gone on walkabouts.> I guess we'll just wait and see if better ideas for solving this problem> surface.> CC to Tom Shannon: Tom, you saw a lot of this. What do you think of the> cone idea?> Ed Weldon> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Dincau" > To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:16 PM> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Black Lines> > > > Ed,> > Actually the statement was it costs $9,600 to lay the lines. I assume> > this means the cost of the tanker truck with the spraying equipment is> > included.> > Jim> >> >> >> From sparky.2211 at cox.net Fri Sep 12 09:12:14 2008 From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (sparky.2211 at cox.net) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:12:14 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Black Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080912111214.PNM7H.253476.imail@fed1rmwml35> It is hard to know--I have been guilty of them all----barley getting off and leaving to fast----ED and Cris had to push me from "just off" at the 7 on my qualifying it is extremely hard to see the turn offs in some light.. ---- > causing stewards to push/pull them clear. I'm all for better markers to hasten > their safe turn outs. From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Sep 12 11:51:28 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:51:28 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... Message-ID: <48CAAC20.7070106@mayfco.com> I am embarked on a quest to lower he frontal drag ont he Sunbeam just a little bit. If you all remember the car, it has the stock headlight rims on it. Those are pretty draggy. I want to add something that will make the headlight pointy in shape (ie dagmars, lol). You know, like a bullet coming out of the headligh topening. I have searched for something like that But I suspect someopf you old hot rodders have a far better idea where to acquire something like that. Any ideas? mayf From donpearsall at comcast.net Fri Sep 12 12:34:15 2008 From: donpearsall at comcast.net (Don Pearsall) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:34:15 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... Message-ID: <03a201c91506$297dd7f0$7c7987d0$@net> You could try a looking at airplane prop spinners. They come in various shapes and sizes. First try looking at Aircraft Spruce and then other places that sell experimental aircraft parts. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/ Don -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+donpearsall=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+donpearsall=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:51 AM To: LSR Subject: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... I am embarked on a quest to lower he frontal drag ont he Sunbeam just a little bit. If you all remember the car, it has the stock headlight rims on it. Those are pretty draggy. I want to add something that will make the headlight pointy in shape (ie dagmars, lol). You know, like a bullet coming out of the headligh topening. I have searched for something like that But I suspect someopf you old hot rodders have a far better idea where to acquire something like that. Any ideas? mayf Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as donpearsall at comcast.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From joyseydevil at comcast.net Fri Sep 12 12:34:40 2008 From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:34:40 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... Message-ID: <4F51F419EF8A430FA25DEC33D04A1299@john> Prop spinners . John >I am embarked on a quest to lower he frontal drag ont he Sunbeam just a > little bit. If you all remember the car, it has the stock headlight > rims on it. Those are pretty draggy. I want to add something that will > make the headlight pointy in shape (ie dagmars, lol). You know, like a > bullet coming out of the headligh topening. I have searched for > something like that But I suspect someopf you old hot rodders have a far > better idea where to acquire something like that. Any ideas? > > mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as joyseydevil at comcast.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Sep 12 13:42:07 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:42:07 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... In-Reply-To: <03a201c91506$297dd7f0$7c7987d0$@net> References: <03a201c91506$297dd7f0$7c7987d0$@net> Message-ID: <48CAC60F.6090006@mayfco.com> Yup, had looked at prop spinners. Aircraft Spruce has them for about 130 buck apeic, give or take a few bucks. Think I wil lpass on those, lol.. mayf Don Pearsall wrote: >You could try a looking at airplane prop spinners. They come in various >shapes and sizes. First try looking at Aircraft Spruce and then other places >that sell experimental aircraft parts. >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/ >Don > > >-----Original Message----- >From: land-speed-bounces+donpearsall=comcast.net at autox.team.net >[mailto:land-speed-bounces+donpearsall=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf >Of drmayf >Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:51 AM >To: LSR >Subject: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... > >I am embarked on a quest to lower he frontal drag ont he Sunbeam just a >little bit. If you all remember the car, it has the stock headlight >rims on it. Those are pretty draggy. I want to add something that will >make the headlight pointy in shape (ie dagmars, lol). You know, like a >bullet coming out of the headligh topening. I have searched for >something like that But I suspect someopf you old hot rodders have a far >better idea where to acquire something like that. Any ideas? > >mayf >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as donpearsall at comcast.net > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From 23.weldon at comcast.net Fri Sep 12 13:55:47 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:55:47 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... References: <03a201c91506$297dd7f0$7c7987d0$@net> <48CAC60F.6090006@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <001b01c91511$9336a8b0$6401a8c0@S> Mayf -- Speedway motors item# 91101008 Black Dietz Type Headlights (pair), Standard Bulb PR $44.99. Use the bucket part and mount it backwards. You may even be able to ebay off the remaining hardware parts like the mounting studs for $10-$15 to some rat rodder looking to mount a different lind of headlight on his ride. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "Don Pearsall" Cc: "'LSR'" Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Drag reduction... > Yup, had looked at prop spinners. Aircraft Spruce has them for about 130 > buck apeic, give or take a few bucks. Think I wil lpass on those, lol.. > mayf From atrav at copper.net Fri Sep 12 14:28:28 2008 From: atrav at copper.net (atrav) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Number of transmission speeds for the LSR motorcycles Message-ID: <48CAD0EC.6040803@copper.net> I was pondering today that a LSR motorcycle (let's say small displacement, under 200mph max) could get away with a two speed transmission, or even a single speed. Any thoughts on that? The way I figure is that my experience drag racing and off roading I've done horribly long clutch releases where you hold a wet clutch steady keeping the engine within it's peak power area, and they seem to take it. Really all I'd want is the clutch to last a couple of runs anyway... Part of the reason I'm thinking this is I'm looking at a disassembled transmission and how easy it would be to gear it as a one speed. ;o) -Aron- From wester6935 at comcast.net Sat Sep 13 06:11:27 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 06:11:27 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Weather outlook on the salt: Message-ID: <514B7831-1F73-483F-B290-1EBFCBAF7EC3@comcast.net> High temperatures forecast for the coming week in Northern Utah are in the 79 - 83 degree range, lows in the low 50's. There don't seem to be any weather fronts that will bring excessive wind. The black lines from Speedweek are still there and the salt has had a chance to heal with a little salt growth on top. We probably could have used just a little more rain to improve the tracks but they should be great as it is. Top Gear, the BBC program will be filming on the salt Friday and Saturday, Discovery Channel has two separate shows shooting at WoS. TV stations are talking about sending crews. Should be interesting! From dlodom at charter.net Sat Sep 13 17:04:39 2008 From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:04:39 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] 1932 Chevy "6" engine parts Message-ID: <014001c915f5$1a521e90$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Anyone have or know of where I can get engine parts for a 1932 Chevy 194cid 6 cyl. Also if anyone has any expertise on this old motor please email off list. Thanks, Doug Odom in big ditch working on something older than me. From gmc6power at earthlink.net Sat Sep 13 22:13:59 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:13:59 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] 1932 Chevy "6" engine parts References: <014001c915f5$1a521e90$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA> Message-ID: <002a01c91620$a4f2a620$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf> Look to www.inlners.org They have a bulletin board for searches.............Good Luck Subject: [Land-speed] 1932 Chevy "6" engine parts > Anyone have or know of where I can get engine parts for a 1932 Chevy > 194cid 6 > cyl. Also if anyone has any expertise on this old motor please email off > list. > Thanks, Doug Odom in big ditch working on something older than me. From saltfevr at q.com Sat Sep 13 22:31:17 2008 From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:31:17 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] WOS Bound Message-ID: Well all, its off to the salt again,this time for WOS. Hopefully Porkpie got his camera repaired,and Jon & Nancy are planning a Salt Talks Take Two?? Well maybe not? LOL With all those expected film crews,somebody's gotta keep Wes away from the canteen truck! Looking forward to the Steam Liner. Tom ShannonMagna, Utah From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Sep 14 18:42:13 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 17:42:13 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] [Fwd: [Tigers] My Enjoyable Non-Tiger Video] Message-ID: <48CDAF65.6040000@mayfco.com> Folk, a Sunbeam Tiger list member sent his link to a video. Kinda corny but shows some vntage SCTA at El Mirage. 12 and a half minutes long... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Tigers] My Enjoyable Non-Tiger Video Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:11:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Sandy Ganz To: tigers at autox.team.net I found this video and like its campy-ness ;-) "watch out for that Jalopy..." http://www.motorator.com/videos/429 Enjoy And Happy Friday Sandy _______________________________________________ From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Sun Sep 14 19:32:28 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 18:32:28 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] [Fwd: [Tigers] My Enjoyable Non-Tiger Video] In-Reply-To: <48CDAF65.6040000@mayfco.com> References: <48CDAF65.6040000@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <48CDBB2C.9050801@wildblue.net> Many thanks Mayf. It sure brought back some memories. I recognized the Santa Ann strip, very much like the first time I was there in the summer of 1949. By the time I got to El Mirage in '61 things there were a bit more organized, but not much more. It was damp but had good traction and was very,very smooth. There were only about 40-50 cars there, I was only 24 but everyone treated me great. That hooked me on LSR for life. Much fun, Bryan drmayf wrote: > Folk, a Sunbeam Tiger list member sent his link to a video. Kinda corny > but shows some vntage SCTA at El Mirage. 12 and a half minutes long... From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net Sun Sep 14 20:20:57 2008 From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:20:57 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] Oil Dye Message-ID: <091520080220.21459.48CDC689000EA4EC000053D322007601809C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net> I'm told by a savvy pal that oil leaks are found by hip racers using a black light that illuminates an appropriate dye in the oil. No doubt you listers can confirm this and point me in the right direction for same. Thanks, BJ From jon.the.wise at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 21:22:29 2008 From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jon Bishop) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:22:29 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Oil Dye In-Reply-To: <091520080220.21459.48CDC689000EA4EC000053D322007601809C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net> References: <091520080220.21459.48CDC689000EA4EC000053D322007601809C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <13418D90-9BB6-4E0B-B09C-08F30A508F9E@gmail.com> Yea, head on down to the Napa, or other local parts store. Ask 'em for UV dye and tell them your application. They have it for power steering/ engine oil/various transmission fluids. ~Jon On Sep 14, 2008, at 7:20 PM, bobbyhotrods at comcast.net wrote: > I'm told by a savvy pal that oil leaks are found by hip racers using > a black light that illuminates an appropriate dye in the oil. > No doubt you listers can confirm this and point me in the right > direction for same. Thanks, BJ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as jon.the.wise at gmail.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Sun Sep 14 22:26:44 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:26:44 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] [Fwd: Re: [Tigers] My Enjoyable Non-Tiger Video] Message-ID: <48CDE404.5070708@mayfco.com> Ok, folk, some more old time videos Enjoy thanks to Sany Gantz... mayf -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Tigers] My Enjoyable Non-Tiger Video Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:37:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Sandy Ganz To: drmayf at mayfco.com I love those old time videos. It has just enough corny-ness and stuff to make it a fun watch. Pass it along. I also put up a few others that might be of interest - http://www.motorator.com/videos/431 http://www.motorator.com/videos/432 http://www.motorator.com/videos/433 Enjoy and hope your back on solids food! Sandy From gmc6power at earthlink.net Mon Sep 15 12:29:07 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:29:07 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: Small Block Chevy Message-ID: <3058556.1221503348375.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> There are a lot of these around, you guys may like the video.............JD Return-Path: Received: from noehlo.host ([127.0.0.1]) by mx-avoceta.atl.sa.earthlink.net (EarthLink SMTP Server) with SMTP id 1kFhWZ79z3Nl34k0; Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx09.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.183.226]) by mx-avoceta.atl.sa.earthlink.net (EarthLink SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1kFhWY3D23Nl34k1 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:33:25 -0400 (EDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnsNACw5zkhKISnJ/2dsb2JhbACBXIgCrkOBZA Received: from relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.167]) by mx09.roch.ny.frontiernet.net with ESMTP; 15 Sep 2008 17:33:24 +0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.5.3 at filter04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net X-Trace: 53616c7465645f5f377bf07772b502b2cd4d4eabb2a175e64a6838da9122a205076b39ce7ee38575a056d9241ed322ff5144a1dc081c55124996f72c8fbdab0b6e63c49dd32b0ab8cb803f32ec790ade456a3b3c9b4681cab4cd757a3ed7ab11 Received: from DDVRKS61 (74-33-41-201.dr01.rvra.az.frontiernet.net [74.33.41.201]) by relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91675CCA10; Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:33:22 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <53930B92E59A43A29907B92A397EEBBC at DDVRKS61> From: "The Waltons" Cc: "Kevin Walton" , "J D Tone" , , "Don Schultz" , "Dean Rumberger" , "Richard & Carol" , "Stan Goerlich" , "Dean French" , "Garry & Darlene Duckett" , "brian/erika Deyoung" , "Brian Cunningham" , "John Barker" , "Arlene" Subject: Fw: Small Block Chevy Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:33:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Received-Info: spv=0; X-ELNK-AV: 0 X-ELNK-Info: sbv=0; sbrc=.0; sbf=0b; sbw=000; ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Norwood" To: "The Waltons" Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: Small Block Chevy > http://www.moyermade.com/chevyV8.html From fosterap at flash.net Thu Sep 18 11:06:39 2008 From: fosterap at flash.net (JERRY FOSTER) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! Message-ID: <493005.88765.qm@web80604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just heard from Sparky.....he is wearing a BLUE HAT! Upped his own record to 305 point something at WOS. That's big medicine, guys. Jerry in Dallas From gmc6power at earthlink.net Thu Sep 18 14:37:28 2008 From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:37:28 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! Message-ID: <27713090.1221770248604.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Spark did the right thing...........Seth has already ran a 310 and I'm sure his poential is pretty far out there...I'm glad he didn't skip the W of S he may hard a lot harder time getting it. "Once it's on...it's on for life"....................JD -----Original Message----- >> >Just heard from Sparky.....he is wearing a BLUE HAT! Upped his own record to >305 point something at WOS. That's big medicine, guys. > >Jerry in Dallas From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 18 17:54:07 2008 From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 23:54:07 +0000 Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! In-Reply-To: <493005.88765.qm@web80604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <493005.88765.qm@web80604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: what -GREAT- NEWS! Congratulations Sparky!!!! you rascal you ;-) wow I can't imagine what it must be like... you lucky (very skillful) devil you c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug ' Speedway Bikes, Minibikes and Harley- D's rode with equal joy, Dog Training, Murdersickle Parts, Emergency Airship repair, Hot Air, Hot Blues, Cold Beer, Fast Cars, an' Warm Willin' Wimin' Aerial Surveillance, Corrupt Politicians exposed, Midgets, Sprint Cars, -and 'Slide Jobs' truly appreciated for the FINE ART that they are -------------------------- oooo --------------------------- > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:06:39 -0700 > From: fosterap at flash.net > To: land-speed at autox.team.net > Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! > > Just heard from Sparky.....he is wearing a BLUE HAT! Upped his own record to > 305 point something at WOS. That's big medicine, guys. > > Jerry in Dallas _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From rbuck at xmission.com Thu Sep 18 19:13:29 2008 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:13:29 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! In-Reply-To: <27713090.1221770248604.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl. sa.earthlink.net> References: <27713090.1221770248604.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Here's Sparky with his new hat and shirt: http://chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/080918/080918_0622r8.jpg http://chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/080918/080918_0628r8.jpg As James said, Seth is in impound with a run of 310: http://chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/080918/080918_0835r8.jpg Get goin, Sparky! Ya gotta bump that one! RtR At 02:37 PM 9/18/2008, James Tone wrote: >Spark did the right thing...........Seth has already ran a 310 and >I'm sure his poential is pretty far out there...I'm glad he didn't >skip the W of S he may hard a lot harder time getting it. "Once it's >on...it's on for life"....................JD >-----Original Message----- > >> > >Just heard from Sparky.....he is wearing a BLUE HAT! Upped his > own record to > >305 point something at WOS. That's big medicine, guys. > > > >Jerry in Dallas From adin at frontier.net Fri Sep 19 08:10:24 2008 From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:10:24 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! References: <493005.88765.qm@web80604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003001c91a61$76070050$6601a8c0@ZTxp> OK, Mr. Bill Sparky is now officially twice as fast as I. Guess I'd better get off the backside . . . Congratulations - quite a year! best, David in Durango ----- Original Message ----- From: "JERRY FOSTER" To: Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! > Just heard from Sparky.....he is wearing a BLUE HAT! Upped his own record > to > 305 point something at WOS. That's big medicine, guys. > > Jerry in Dallas > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From drmayf at mayfco.com Sat Sep 20 10:51:38 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:51:38 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Spoiler Questions.. Message-ID: <48D52A1A.60202@mayfco.com> I am about to embark on building a spoiler for the world's fastest sunbeam (wannabe). But before I get too deep into it, I'd like to hear from some of your real fabricators about how to do some things, materials used, ect. I have read the rule book and have chatted some with Dan Warner. so I have some answers already. I need to purchase materials, so what thicknesses did you use for the spill plates? How about for the main spoiler chord? Was what you built adjustable? I want the sunbeam unit to be capable of changing the angle of attack in the pit. Did you use a hinge at the point where the spoiler meets the body line Heck, is a hinge even legal? Fill plates: how did you attach them to the spoiler or to the car? How wide did you make the spoiler chord? Why? Are under chord siffeners legal? They would go from side to side just o keep the chord from flexing. I would love to hear off list from any and all of you who have successfully built a spoiler with the end spill plates and for sure, if you have a picure or two you might share then that would be even better! I define success as one that has made it through a record run and any potential protests or Dan, whichever comes first, lol... many thanks in advance, mayf From saltfever at comcast.net Sat Sep 20 22:19:34 2008 From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:19:34 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Where is Ray Message-ID: <6A51C596FC1A4826A6E2789D96309611@dim8100> Hey Ray, has the head inmate escaped from the asylum letting the server go down for a couple of days?? -Elon Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008, From Ray Buck Subject: SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! Here's Sparky with his new hat and shirt: http://chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/080918/080918_0622r8.jpg From rbuck at xmission.com Sat Sep 20 22:42:03 2008 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 22:42:03 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Where is Ray In-Reply-To: <6A51C596FC1A4826A6E2789D96309611@dim8100> References: <6A51C596FC1A4826A6E2789D96309611@dim8100> Message-ID: Server down? No...the DSL line choked a bit EARLY (like 5 am) this morning, but it's been running all day...I just got back from the Grand-Am finale, a 1000km race at Miller Motorsport Park...I got there at 8 am and got back home at about 8 pm. I've been posting some stuff on the SpeedTV forum and to a coupla mailing lists I host but the server's been kinda busy...a whole buncha people lookin at the photos I slapped on there without any html: http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/ I've gotta cover the support races tomorrow, then back to the salt for the shootout. I may get a chance to breathe in between events....like 3 or 4 hours. ;) I've just put a coupla photos in a directory for the 100 km race here; http://chevyasylum.com/racing08/20080920/ I dunno who might find photos 1065 and 1391 amusing, but I did. I even asked the young lady if I could shoot the photo. And I got to tell Scott Pruett to say "hi" to his family at home for me. :) RtR At 10:19 PM 9/20/2008, Elon wrote: >Hey Ray, has the head inmate escaped from the asylum letting the server go >down for a couple of days?? -Elon > > > >Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008, From Ray Buck > >Subject: SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! > >Here's Sparky with his new hat and shirt: > >http://chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/080918/080918_0622r8.jpg >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as rbuck at xmission.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From adin at frontier.net Sun Sep 21 01:40:19 2008 From: adin at frontier.net (adin at frontier.net) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 01:40:19 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Where is Ray In-Reply-To: References: <6A51C596FC1A4826A6E2789D96309611@dim8100> Message-ID: <20080921014019.lcao2i01wgwk8c88@webmail.brainstorminternet.net> works for me (sometime sunday are we?), and many thanks Ray! Quoting Ray Buck : > Server down? No...the DSL line choked a bit EARLY (like 5 am) this > morning, but it's been running all day...I just got back from the > Grand-Am finale, a 1000km race at Miller Motorsport Park...I got > there at 8 am and got back home at about 8 pm. I've been posting > some stuff on the SpeedTV forum and to a coupla mailing lists I host > but the server's been kinda busy...a whole buncha people lookin at > the photos I slapped on there without any html: > http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/ > > I've gotta cover the support races tomorrow, then back to the salt > for the shootout. I may get a chance to breathe in between > events....like 3 or 4 hours. ;) > > I've just put a coupla photos in a directory for the 100 km race here; > http://chevyasylum.com/racing08/20080920/ I dunno who might find > photos 1065 and 1391 amusing, but I did. I even asked the young lady > if I could shoot the photo. > > And I got to tell Scott Pruett to say "hi" to his family at home for me. :) > > RtR > > > At 10:19 PM 9/20/2008, Elon wrote: >> Hey Ray, has the head inmate escaped from the asylum letting the server go >> down for a couple of days?? -Elon >> >> >> >> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008, From Ray Buck >> >> Subject: SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! >> >> Here's Sparky with his new hat and shirt: >> >> http://chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/wos/080918/080918_0622r8.jpg >> _______________________________________________ >> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Land-speed mailing list >> >> You are subscribed as rbuck at xmission.com >> >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From kturk at ala.net Mon Sep 22 02:40:21 2008 From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:40:21 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Spoiler Questions.. References: <48D52A1A.60202@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <02c001c91c8e$da1c47b0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> Hey Larry.. I used .125 3003 Aluminum for the Camaro's the first time...that was for both surfaces... ( sides and spill plates ) This last time I used .090 and it's plenty stiff enough... again in 3003 condition Keith From jpszalay01 at insightbb.com Mon Sep 22 07:34:26 2008 From: jpszalay01 at insightbb.com (John Szalay) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:34:26 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! References: <493005.88765.qm@web80604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130EFD1484CE4B18A1CB40B02401D95F@531W> Congratulations Sparky !, really good show ! Look good in that shirt & hat Too -------------------------------------------------- From: "JERRY FOSTER" Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:06 PM To: Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! > Just heard from Sparky.....he is wearing a BLUE HAT! Upped his own record > to > 305 point something at WOS. That's big medicine, guys. > > Jerry in Dallas From kturk at ala.net Mon Sep 22 08:21:22 2008 From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:21:22 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! References: <493005.88765.qm@web80604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <130EFD1484CE4B18A1CB40B02401D95F@531W> Message-ID: <09d201c91cbe$7dae2ae0$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p> Man oh Man..... Bill Smith... that is one incredible job... and you did it yourself... ( ya sure you had a crew... but not all those lonely nights ).... Congrats... that is HUGE... Keith ( by the way... guys... Seth can do what he does... right now he's BEHIND BILL ) From sparky.2211 at cox.net Mon Sep 22 10:03:51 2008 From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (sparky.2211 at cox.net) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:03:51 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! Message-ID: <20080922120351.DERC1.407632.imail@fed1rmwml35> Thanks Guys for the kind words!!!!!!!!! I tried to convience Seth to bump it up to 325---and put me out of my "MISERY"---he laughed and said "oh no thats not wat its all about---you go back home and clean it up and come back and bump mine" I just laughed and said---well --I was still sorta speachless from the whole "Journey"---We took picts down on the big end after he had bumped mine---Jeannie, Seth, myself and Tannis---with our Blue Hats---man I can't wait to get a copy of one of those picts from them... What a class act they are!!!!!!!!!!! > > Keith ( by the way... guys... Seth can do what he does... right now he's > BEHIND BILL ) > _______________________________________________ From neil at dbelltech.com Mon Sep 22 14:17:50 2008 From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:17:50 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! In-Reply-To: <20080922120351.DERC1.407632.imail@fed1rmwml35> References: <20080922120351.DERC1.407632.imail@fed1rmwml35> Message-ID: <8C4BF87794D44AB2AD492BA48DD3C257@DBTech> Way to go, Bill. Go fast, be safe. Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of sparky.2211 at cox.net Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:04 AM To: John Szalay; Keith Turk; land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] SPARKY GOES FAST AGAIN!!! Thanks Guys for the kind words!!!!!!!!! I tried to convience Seth to bump it up to 325---and put me out of my "MISERY"---he laughed and said "oh no thats not wat its all about---you go back home and clean it up and come back and bump mine" I just laughed and said---well --I was still sorta speachless from the whole "Journey"---We took picts down on the big end after he had bumped mine---Jeannie, Seth, myself and Tannis---with our Blue Hats---man I can't wait to get a copy of one of those picts from them... What a class act they are!!!!!!!!!!! > > Keith ( by the way... guys... Seth can do what he does... right now he's > BEHIND BILL ) > _______________________________________________ Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From rbuck at xmission.com Mon Sep 22 15:06:04 2008 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:06:04 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] OT: Live and direct from the salt flats 1 of ??? Message-ID: OSU is here with there Hydrogen-powered liner. They have a wifi repeater set up for folks to use. 54mbit, but far superior to nothing at all. I've had to resort to some very quick photo editing and a photobucket account, but here are some of the shots I made during the Poteet & Main Speed Demon turnaround and return launch: http://photobucket.com/RayTheRat_Poteet-Main_Turnaround They're running by FIA rules which means a run in each direction with a 1 hour turnaround time for cars and 2 hour time for bikes. Don't ask me why. No idea...maybe because they're French. :) That liner (powered by a 2.2 liter turbo motor) ran 390 mph one way and destroyed one of its front tires along the way. They barely got it replaced and the other stuff done in time for the return. On that run, the car caught fire somehow/somewhere and ended up with an average of 345 and change. The driver (George Poteet) was unharmed as far as I know. That's gotta be the all time record for an F class Blown Fuel Liner...and for a 4-banger at that! Back to work shootin photos. RtR From saltfevr at q.com Mon Sep 22 19:34:11 2008 From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:34:11 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] OT: Live and direct from the salt flats 1 of ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rayrat; Good stuff bud!! What happened to Charles Nearburg from TX and the Old Wooden Liner? Heard the FIA meet is open to public is that true? Looks like UHP had to keep the spectators from stopping off I-80, Guess I missed you Ray at MMSP on Sun,worked turn 15. Keep it comin' Rayman..Tom ShannonMagna, Utah> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:06:04 -0600> To: land-speed at autox.team.net> From: rbuck at xmission.com> Subject: [Land-speed] OT: Live and direct from the salt flats 1 of ???> > OSU is here with there Hydrogen-powered liner. They have a wifi > repeater set up for folks to use. 54mbit, but far superior to > nothing at all.> > I've had to resort to some very quick photo editing and a photobucket > account, but here are some of the shots I made during the Poteet & > Main Speed Demon turnaround and return launch:> http://photobucket.com/RayTheRat_Poteet-Main_Turnaround> > They're running by FIA rules which means a run in each direction with > a 1 hour turnaround time for cars and 2 hour time for bikes. Don't > ask me why. No idea...maybe because they're French. :)> > That liner (powered by a 2.2 liter turbo motor) ran 390 mph one way > and destroyed one of its front tires along the way. They barely got > it replaced and the other stuff done in time for the return. On that > run, the car caught fire somehow/somewhere and ended up with an > average of 345 and change. The driver (George Poteet) was unharmed > as far as I know. That's gotta be the all time record for an F > class Blown Fuel Liner...and for a 4-banger at that!> > Back to work shootin photos.> > RtR> _______________________________________________> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltracer at awwwsome.com Tue Sep 23 08:24:44 2008 From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:24:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Land-speed] Salt fees Message-ID: <48D8FC2C.00000C.02964@D3DP98F1> My World of Speed story is now available at www.bryantauto.com , Bryant Racing then Archives: 2008. Can anyone on the list tell me what the fees to BLM are for our use of the salt? Doesn't BLM also gets a percentage of the concession as well? Just curious. Tom, Redding CA - D/FCC [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif] From lona at finishlinecoatings.com Tue Sep 23 18:09:28 2008 From: lona at finishlinecoatings.com (lona jensen) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:09:28 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Record Run Message-ID: <48D98538.3060203@finishlinecoatings.com> Hi J.D & others Sorry guys, I don't have J.D. Tone's e-mail address...We got there late, only got two runs in..171MPH & 166MPH. Record 168 and some change. We were just going easy to start out. Believe me there is lots left. See ya Russ Meeks From jimwebb at nutsracing.com Wed Sep 24 19:40:00 2008 From: jimwebb at nutsracing.com (Jim Webb) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:40:00 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals Message-ID: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> OK, so there it sits, a ready to run motor on the shop floor. The truck is ready and the motor only needed a little work to make it to World Finals. A mouse motor, but a strong one. Ready to go. Then hurricane Ike hit and it changed everything. For those of you that don't know, we live on the swamp coast, about 40 miles south of Houston. My dear wife and I rode out the storm in the house and it was OK, but not too much fun. We spent a week running on a generator and many of the nearby neighbors still do not have power. The house came through OK, but there were a few evenings of roof repair to do - not enough to collect that FEMA money! The scariest part of the ordeal was going into the shop around 1:00AM to see the north wall flexing WAY more than it should ever move. There is still plenty of chainsaw work to do. So, the long & the short of it is that we won't make WF this year and man, were we pumped. We had set a decent D record in October and came home with a hundred ideas (like everyone else!). The motor sits there and will be prepped for. something. Until next year, and may everyone go fast in October. Jim Webb Choc Full o' Nuts A/PP B/PP D/PP ?/FL From saltfevr at q.com Wed Sep 24 20:10:28 2008 From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:10:28 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals In-Reply-To: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> References: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> Message-ID: Jim; You and the wife are ok,and thats all that matters bud. Us Course Stewards sure love that Big Red Truck, as does everyone else! Cathy & I are so glad you survived Ike. SW countdown has begun! Be safe. Tom ShannonMagna, Utah> From: jimwebb at nutsracing.com> To: land-speed at autox.team.net> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:40:00 -0500> Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals> > OK, so there it sits, a ready to run motor on the shop floor. The truck is> ready and the motor only needed a little work to make it to World Finals. A> mouse motor, but a strong one. Ready to go. Then hurricane Ike hit and it> changed everything. For those of you that don't know, we live on the swamp> coast, about 40 miles south of Houston. My dear wife and I rode out the> storm in the house and it was OK, but not too much fun. We spent a week> running on a generator and many of the nearby neighbors still do not have> power. The house came through OK, but there were a few evenings of roof> repair to do - not enough to collect that FEMA money! The scariest part of> the ordeal was going into the shop around 1:00AM to see the north wall> flexing WAY more than it should ever move. There is still plenty of chainsaw> work to do.> > > > So, the long & the short of it is that we won't make WF this year and man,> were we pumped. We had set a decent D record in October and came home with a> hundred ideas (like everyone else!). The motor sits there and will be> prepped for. something.> > > > Until next year, and may everyone go fast in October. > > > > Jim Webb> > Choc Full o' Nuts> > A/PP B/PP D/PP ?/FL> _______________________________________________> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Thu Sep 25 01:42:27 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:42:27 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals In-Reply-To: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> References: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <48DB40E3.9090805@wildblue.net> Jim, It's good to hear that you and your Social Director are OK. What a total bummer, but you've proven you can break through tough barriers. The wall problem was to be expected. You live in the south which makes anything North, suspect. And don't worry Jim, the salt's not going anywhere. You'll hammer it on '09. Bryan Jim Webb wrote: > OK, so there it sits, a ready to run motor on the shop floor. The truck is > ready and the motor only needed a little work to make it to World Finals. A > mouse motor, but a strong one. Ready to go. Then hurricane Ike hit and it > changed everything. For those of you that don't know, we live on the swamp > coast, about 40 miles south of Houston. My dear wife and I rode out the > storm in the house and it was OK, but not too much fun. We spent a week > running on a generator and many of the nearby neighbors still do not have > power. The house came through OK, but there were a few evenings of roof > repair to do - not enough to collect that FEMA money! The scariest part of > the ordeal was going into the shop around 1:00AM to see the north wall > flexing WAY more than it should ever move. There is still plenty of chainsaw > work to do. > > > > So, the long & the short of it is that we won't make WF this year and man, > were we pumped. We had set a decent D record in October and came home with a > hundred ideas (like everyone else!). The motor sits there and will be > prepped for. something. > > > > Until next year, and may everyone go fast in October. > > > > Jim Webb > > Choc Full o' Nuts > > A/PP B/PP D/PP ?/FL > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as b.a.savage at wildblue.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From b.a.savage at wildblue.net Thu Sep 25 01:45:12 2008 From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:45:12 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals In-Reply-To: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> References: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <48DB4188.5050905@wildblue.net> Jim, It's good to hear that you and your Social Director are OK. What a total bummer, but you've proven you can break through tough barriers. The wall problem was to be expected. You live in the south which makes anything North, suspect. And don't worry Jim, the salt's not going anywhere. You'll hammer it on '09. Bryan Jim Webb wrote: > OK, so there it sits, a ready to run motor on the shop floor. The truck is > ready and the motor only needed a little work to make it to World Finals. A > mouse motor, but a strong one. Ready to go. Then hurricane Ike hit and it > changed everything. For those of you that don't know, we live on the swamp > coast, about 40 miles south of Houston. My dear wife and I rode out the > storm in the house and it was OK, but not too much fun. We spent a week > running on a generator and many of the nearby neighbors still do not have > power. The house came through OK, but there were a few evenings of roof > repair to do - not enough to collect that FEMA money! The scariest part of > the ordeal was going into the shop around 1:00AM to see the north wall > flexing WAY more than it should ever move. There is still plenty of chainsaw > work to do. > > > > So, the long & the short of it is that we won't make WF this year and man, > were we pumped. We had set a decent D record in October and came home with a > hundred ideas (like everyone else!). The motor sits there and will be > prepped for. something. > > > > Until next year, and may everyone go fast in October. > > > > Jim Webb > > Choc Full o' Nuts > > A/PP B/PP D/PP ?/FL > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as b.a.savage at wildblue.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as b.a.savage at earthlink.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From jimwebb at nutsracing.com Thu Sep 25 05:26:00 2008 From: jimwebb at nutsracing.com (Jim Webb) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 06:26:00 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals In-Reply-To: <48DB4188.5050905@wildblue.net> Message-ID: <20080925112610.7015B187642@autox.team.net> Hah! Good one. Yes, anything coming in out of the north is suspect around here! The actual hurricane winds were not too bad here, but the tornados were. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why a C-130 was flying so low over the house as the outer fringes of the storm started over the house around midnight. Of course, I had to run outside to see... I heard three tornados that night. Jim Webb Choc Full o' Nuts A/PP B/PP D/PP ?/FL -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Savage Jr. [mailto:basavage at wildblue.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Savage Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:45 AM To: jimwebb at nutsracing.com Cc: 'Landspeed' Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals Jim, It's good to hear that you and your Social Director are OK. What a total bummer, but you've proven you can break through tough barriers. The wall problem was to be expected. You live in the south which makes anything North, suspect. And don't worry Jim, the salt's not going anywhere. You'll hammer it on '09. Bryan From jpszalay01 at insightbb.com Thu Sep 25 14:29:31 2008 From: jpszalay01 at insightbb.com (John Szalay) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:29:31 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals References: <20080925014020.3F44F187652@autox.team.net> Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Webb" > > So, the long & the short of it is that we won't make WF this year and man, > were we pumped. > > Jim Webb > Glad to see that you road out the storm, OK, & sorry about WF. After Ike was through with you, the winds (75MPH gusts) of Ike came to Louisville KY and did a number on us, ( no rain, Just 4 hours of no stop winds) we got power back after 4 days on the generator, the rest of the county took 11 days, Thanks to the hard work of over 1100 very overworked utility crews. I've worn out the chainsaw and my shoulders & arms. Had to cut two trees out of the road to get to one daughters house, county crew removed one tree to get to the others place. Tree behind the my garage ALMOST took out my neighbors race car trailer. got caught in a fork within feet of its roof. still waiting for the tree guy with his crane to remove the rest of the tree, too big for me . the guy down the road lost his new motorcycle trailer. But like you, we were lucky.. no major damage and NO injuries to family. Luck to all at WF... John & Brenda From ifixmgs at cox.net Fri Sep 26 04:29:39 2008 From: ifixmgs at cox.net (ifixmgs at cox.net) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 6:29:39 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Hurricane Ike & World Finals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080926062939.QZVWC.8333.imail@eastrmwml09> S.E. VA just went through a lightweight nor'easter the past couple days - lots of rain/road flooding but not much damage. But last week, the remnants of Ike brought down a 60' tall 14" in diameter poplar tree in our paddock. It should have taken out the tin roof barn, but somehow did a pirouette, and fell across the forward edge of the roof of a pony trailer where it curves downward in an egg-shell shape. Must be something to that, because the tree broke across it but left the trailer intact without anything more than just a big spot of marred-up paint and a fist sized dent that popped right out with a soft hammer. Mark C ---- John Szalay wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Jim Webb" > > > > So, the long & the short of it is that we won't make WF this year and man, > > were we pumped. > > > Jim Webb > > > > Glad to see that you road out the storm, OK, & sorry about WF. > > After Ike was through with you, the winds (75MPH gusts) of Ike came to > Louisville KY and > did a number on us, ( no rain, Just 4 hours of no stop winds) we got power > back after > 4 days on the generator, the rest of the county took 11 days, Thanks to the > hard work of > over 1100 very overworked utility crews. > I've worn out the chainsaw and my shoulders & arms. Had to cut two trees > out of the road to get to one daughters house, county crew removed one tree > to get to > the others place. > Tree behind the my garage ALMOST took out my neighbors race car trailer. > got caught > in a fork within feet of its roof. still waiting for the tree guy with his > crane to remove the > rest of the tree, too big for me . > the guy down the road lost his new motorcycle trailer. > > But like you, we were lucky.. no major damage and NO injuries to family. > > Luck to all at WF... > > John & Brenda > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ifixmgs at cox.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From rbuck at xmission.com Fri Sep 26 08:37:26 2008 From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:37:26 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Ack Attack one-way rn Message-ID: Ack Attack motorcycle streamliner with Rocky Robinson at the handlebars just made the first pass of an FIM record attempt. Safe run, Entry speed of timed sector, 360 and change. Exit speed 352. Average for km and mile, both over 359. Fastest one-way pass for a motorcycle ever. Rocky backed out because the canopy opened slightly on one side in the middle of the timed section. Team states that it shouldn't be a problem...may tape that side for the return. They've got 2 hours for the turnaround as opposed to FIA's 1 hour for "cars." More Same Wheeler and E-Z-Hook are planning a run this morning as are Pteet and Maine in Speed Demon which set a record yesterday of 251.something. They changed gears and are shooting for 260 today. Live and direct reporting on landracing.com. RtR From drmayf at mayfco.com Fri Sep 26 12:46:17 2008 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:46:17 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Steam Car.. Message-ID: <48DD2DF9.7090107@mayfco.com> Has the Brit Steam car showed up at the salt yet? Anybody seen it if so? Any runs yet if so? inquiring minds wan to know.. mayf From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Fri Sep 26 12:52:12 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:52:12 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Steam Car.. References: <48DD2DF9.7090107@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <004401c92008$fcf23a10$6501a8c0@Glens> I haven't heard a thing on it, I would guess it's not here. GB ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Steam Car.. > Has the Brit Steam car showed up at the salt yet? Anybody seen it if so? > Any runs yet if so? > > inquiring minds wan to know.. > > mayf > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 2086 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From saltrat at pahrump.com Fri Sep 26 13:07:17 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:07:17 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Steam Car.. In-Reply-To: <48DD2DF9.7090107@mayfco.com> References: <48DD2DF9.7090107@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <20080926190614.1B14018767D@autox.team.net> Mayf, It wasn't there last week. Skip At 11:46 AM 9/26/2008, drmayf wrote: >Has the Brit Steam car showed up at the salt yet? Anybody seen it if so? >Any runs yet if so? > >inquiring minds wan to know.. > >mayf >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Land-speed mailing list > >You are subscribed as saltrat at pahrump.com > >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From wester6935 at comcast.net Fri Sep 26 13:59:32 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:59:32 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Steam Car.. In-Reply-To: <20080926190614.1B14018767D@autox.team.net> References: <48DD2DF9.7090107@mayfco.com> <20080926190614.1B14018767D@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <2E795EF7-8EE2-425C-A29C-13410393AA57@comcast.net> They were having problems getting out of "Jolly Old" last I heard from Mike Cook this week. Wes On Sep 26, 2008, at 1:07 PM, Skip Higginbotham wrote: > Mayf, > It wasn't there last week. > Skip > > > > At 11:46 AM 9/26/2008, drmayf wrote: >> Has the Brit Steam car showed up at the salt yet? Anybody seen it >> if so? >> Any runs yet if so? >> >> inquiring minds wan to know.. >> >> mayf From MPittwood at compuserve.com Fri Sep 26 14:53:03 2008 From: MPittwood at compuserve.com (MPittwood at compuserve.com) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:53:03 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] British Steam Car Message-ID: <200809261653_MC3-2-11FD-2013@compuserve.com> I thought the team had sent word widely about their problems that have prevented testing and then shipping to get to any of the US events this year. They are seeking a 'winter' location to keep momentum going, but not many seven mile tracks in the Southern Hemisphere. [That should raise some argument from down under!]. Malcolm From karlepayne55 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 26 15:44:47 2008 From: karlepayne55 at yahoo.com (Karl Payne) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Home Generator suggestions In-Reply-To: <20080926062939.QZVWC.8333.imail@eastrmwml09> Message-ID: <22769.12754.qm@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has anyone run across a hot setup for a home generator for use in emergencies? I have seen a couple of posts mentioning the use of a home generator. What kind of features would you look for in a generator, switch, fuel type, mounting location, etc? Thanks to all. From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Fri Sep 26 15:50:49 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:50:49 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Home Generator suggestions References: <22769.12754.qm@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cb01c92021$f0b393c0$6501a8c0@Glens> Google home generators. Glen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Payne" To: Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Home Generator suggestions > Has anyone run across a hot setup for a home generator for use in > emergencies? > I have seen a couple of posts mentioning the use of a home generator. > What > kind of features would you look for in a generator, switch, fuel type, > mounting location, etc? > > Thanks to all. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 2086 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From BWANA343 at aol.com Fri Sep 26 15:52:39 2008 From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:52:39 EDT Subject: [Land-speed] British Steam Car Message-ID: News from The British Steam Car site (and great site, too) _http://www.steamcar.co.uk/news/index.htm_ (http://www.steamcar.co.uk/news/index.htm) **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) From yesford at clear.net.nz Fri Sep 26 16:43:29 2008 From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 10:43:29 +1200 Subject: [Land-speed] British Steam Car References: Message-ID: Great effort to date. The technical problems must have been many. Car appears beautifully engineered throughout. Is the side profile similar to a wing section a problem, ready to race weight of 3 tons should keep car loaded at 170 mph I guess. I like the fact that it's wheel, not thrust driven. Bit of 'pommie' humor regarding tea making capacity shows dual purpose lacking on most LSR vehicles. Chris Harris..................NZed. > News from The British Steam Car site > (and great site, too) > > > > _http://www.steamcar.co.uk/news/index.htm_ > (http://www.steamcar.co.uk/news/index.htm) From 23.weldon at comcast.net Fri Sep 26 18:52:52 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:52:52 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Home Generator suggestions References: <22769.12754.qm@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c9203b$6165a360$6401a8c0@S> Carl -- I've had a lot of experience with a home emergency generator. They are commonplace in the California coastal mountain area where we have lived for 34 years. I suffered with a little B&S for 10 years until we could afford a decent machine. We got a 4000 watt electric start Honda and very soon installed a transfer switch to get away from extension cords and the possible safety problems of poor grounds sending voltages back up the lines where they get multiplied 100 times by the transformers. Ours runs most of the house including the fridge, freezer, pellet stove and even a toaster if needed. It's too small to do the range, water heater, air conditioner or our well pump (fortunately we have an elevated water tank that feeds the house by gravity). But there's enough reserve capacity for one additional small 15 amp appliance(like a toaster) as long as it doesn't have a big electric motor that draws a lot of startup current. If you can't afford or justify a high quality generator and choose something a good bit cheaper just make sure you are well equipped with starting fluid. A significant step up from my setup would be an automatic starting propane or diesel generator. Propane works well around here because it doesn't get that cold and lots of folks heat with propane so they have big tanks on site. Whatever you do don't fool around with a "cheater cord" (one with male plugs on each end). Any more questions contact me at 23.weldon at comcast.net. Ed Weldon Los Gatos, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Payne" To: Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 2:44 PM Subject: [Land-speed] Home Generator suggestions > Has anyone run across a hot setup for a home generator for use in > emergencies? > I have seen a couple of posts mentioning the use of a home generator. What > kind of features would you look for in a generator, switch, fuel type, > mounting location, etc? From jimwebb at nutsracing.com Sat Sep 27 05:06:17 2008 From: jimwebb at nutsracing.com (Jim Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 06:06:17 -0500 Subject: [Land-speed] Home Generator suggestions In-Reply-To: <22769.12754.qm@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080927110647.8DC04187874@autox.team.net> Hi Karl, The generator we ran on for a week is one I have had for several years. It is a 10KW model with an 18Hp V twin B&S, gasoline. It has pull start and electric start. Cost a bit under $2K 8 years ago. Since we live in an all-electric house with a water well and aerobic septic pump, I needed something that would run the well and pump the crap as well as a few other appliances. This has all the power we needed after the storm. It ran two fridges, a freezer, the well, two water heaters (not simultaneously) and a small window AC. We could make coffee, toast, and run a microwave. There is no doubt that we could have gotten by with much less power, but running the well was really important. As was the dear one's AC. The two biggest downsides are noise and fuel consumption. I figured about 1 gallon an hour which is about double what the folks running the 3.5-5KW models are burning. The questions you have to ask yourself are: 1. Do you want a portable model, or one that is dedicated to running your home at a moment's notice? 2. How often do you need backup power? 3. What is your budget? For a portable model, about 5KW is plenty for most needs and they are fairly inexpensive ($600-$1K). Gasoline powered is OK or get a tri-fuel that you can also run on propane. Be sure you have enough gas cans (or propane) to run for a few days, since an extended power outage means you can't go get more! (Which is why we had two vehicles full of gas and used the diesel truck to get around till gas was available). If you need to run the whole house and need standby power often, consider a stationary model ($3K-$5K). The best option here (IMHO) is one that runs on natural gas - if you have that plumbed to your house. Even if the power is out, the gas is usually on (except probably in earthquake country). These also run on propane, but you need a large tank for extended runs. A side benefit is that the fuel doesn't go bad sitting around for a year or more. Also, pay attention to what Ed said, and get a transfer switch wired in by a professional for a safe installation. You can learn all about generators at northerntool.com Jim Webb Choc Full o' Nuts A/PP B/PP D/PP ?/FL From 23.weldon at comcast.net Sat Sep 27 08:30:38 2008 From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 07:30:38 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] Home Generator suggestions References: <20080927110647.8DC04187874@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <000401c920ad$9eff43d0$6401a8c0@S> You guys who think you're pretty good at house wiring (like myself) might benefit from my experience. After reading the instructions that come with the transfer switch I felt pretty confident. I did it myself and everything worked fine for several years. Then one time during one of our minor power outages (5-6 times a year) we were up and running fine when all of a sudden several lights when dim and the TV set when out with what turned out to be a $400 "pop". When the "dust" settled and I started troubleshooting I found a ground wire from the transfer switch inside my main breaker panel was not tightened down quite enough. I also found blown fuses in several pieces of electronic equipment, a dead ceiling fan controller and a toasted APU on one of our computers. Here's what happened: Inside the power controller of the Honda generator there is a circuit that splits the 240 volt output into two 120 sides of the 240 volt output line. The only way it knows where to make the split is by sensing a proper neutral (which should be as near to ground as possible). If the neutral is "floating" because of a bad connection one leg of the 240 can be anywhere between 120 and 240 while the other leg goes low. And this variation can be at an indeterminate high cycle rate so the effective voltages can be just about anywhere. This is the kind of stuff you need to understand if you're tempted to go DIY. BTW Jim, looks like you've got a pretty slick system. I've though for a long time about upgrading my system to a dedicated permanent propane system running off the same 500 gallon tank as the house furnace. Winco, a US outfit, makes a system around 10KW output on which the engine runs at 1800 rpm, a lot quieter than the common 3600 rpm units. Still in the planning for the future stage because I'll need to replace the entire currently overcrowded breaker box and add a propane furnace to my air handler system plus the tank and all the plumbing. (way on the north side of $10,000) Ed Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Webb" >(snip) get a transfer switch wired in by a > professional for a safe installation. > You can learn all about generators at northerntool.com > Jim Webb From wolcott_jl at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 10:52:35 2008 From: wolcott_jl at yahoo.com (Joel Wolcott) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 09:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Very Sad News from Maxton Message-ID: <567481.65188.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maxton lost a great competitor, and a great person today. Dave Owens died while competing at Maxton. God rest his soul. Prayers for him and his family. From turbovortec6 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 13:55:28 2008 From: turbovortec6 at yahoo.com (Randy Will) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Very Sad News from Maxton In-Reply-To: <567481.65188.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <649542.76013.qm@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From everyone associated with the No Class Racing Team our thoughts and prayers go to Dave and his family and friends. Randy, Cindy, Clem and Wanda No Class Racing 4331 U/DT --- On Sat, 9/27/08, Joel Wolcott wrote: From: Joel Wolcott Subject: [Land-speed] Very Sad News from Maxton To: ECTALSR at yahoogroups.com, land-speed at autox.team.net Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 11:52 AM Maxton lost a great competitor, and a great person today. Dave Owens died while competing at Maxton. God rest his soul. Prayers for him and his family. Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as turbovortec6 at yahoo.com http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From david_dymaxion at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 00:29:33 2008 From: david_dymaxion at yahoo.com (David Dymaxion) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Kid Karts at WoS Message-ID: <587819.45905.qm@web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is a micro web page I threw up about the 2 kid karts that ran (or tried to run, in my case) at World of Speed last week. Enjoy! http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2008/kart/ From david_dymaxion at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 00:32:06 2008 From: david_dymaxion at yahoo.com (David Dymaxion) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Land-speed] Electrathon at WoS Message-ID: <5772.64470.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is another little page I put up about one of the electrathons that ran at World of Speed. http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2008/electrathon From speedtimer at beyondbb.com Sun Sep 28 11:06:39 2008 From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:06:39 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Burklands Message-ID: <009b01c9218c$9309c980$6501a8c0@Glens> Congrates to the Burklands for their new FIA land speed record on the salt flats. 415.896 mph two way avg. Great run by a great LSR family. This special private meet was put together by Mike Cook, Mike Akatif and all others that made this meet happen. A big thank you. Great show. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 2110 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From jpszalay01 at insightbb.com Sun Sep 28 13:10:12 2008 From: jpszalay01 at insightbb.com (John Szalay) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:10:12 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] Very Sad News from Maxton References: <567481.65188.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------- From: "Joel Wolcott" Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 12:52 PM To: ; Subject: [Land-speed] Very Sad News from Maxton > Maxton lost a great competitor, and a great person today. Dave Owens died > while competing at Maxton. God rest his soul. Prayers for him and his > family. > Amen ! http://www.ecta-lsr.com/Gallery/displayimage.php?pid=1391&fullsize=1 From Saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 08:51:08 2008 From: Saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:51:08 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT Message-ID: <20080930145109.3AC1018788F@autox.team.net> What should the EGT be on a BBC with an 8-71, gas and 22 lbs of boost at Bonneville? I'm seeing 1750. Thanks, Skip From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 09:06:51 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:06:51 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT Message-ID: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> David, Are you running a turbo? Skip At 07:59 AM 9/30/2008, Adin, David wrote: >Hi Skip, > >FWIW: 1600cc Miata, 22lbs boost EGT = ~1800. My a/f was right on. > >What I noticed was how long the temp stayed up there, keeping in mind I >had never been in the boost for two miles on the street. > >My guess (and purely a SWAG) is: good a/f with this egt is ok. > >I'd ask Dahlgren . . . > >Regards, > >David in Durango > >-----Original Message----- >From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net >[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On >Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:51 AM >To: land-speed at autox.team.net >Subject: [Land-speed] EGT > >What should the EGT be on a BBC with an 8-71, gas and 22 lbs of boost >at Bonneville? I'm seeing 1750. >Thanks, >Skip From ddahlgren at snet.net Tue Sep 30 09:33:16 2008 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> References: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> tell me about the cam timing and ignition timing a/f ratios if you have them.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Adin, David" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > David, > Are you running a turbo? > Skip > > > > At 07:59 AM 9/30/2008, Adin, David wrote: >>Hi Skip, >> >>FWIW: 1600cc Miata, 22lbs boost EGT = ~1800. My a/f was right on. >> >>What I noticed was how long the temp stayed up there, keeping in mind I >>had never been in the boost for two miles on the street. >> >>My guess (and purely a SWAG) is: good a/f with this egt is ok. >> >>I'd ask Dahlgren . . . >> >>Regards, >> >>David in Durango >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net >>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On >>Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham >>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:51 AM >>To: land-speed at autox.team.net >>Subject: [Land-speed] EGT >> >>What should the EGT be on a BBC with an 8-71, gas and 22 lbs of boost >>at Bonneville? I'm seeing 1750. >>Thanks, >>Skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 09:46:22 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:46:22 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <001001c92310$d63c6160$6501a8c0@Rick> References: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> <001001c92310$d63c6160$6501a8c0@Rick> Message-ID: <20080930154622.1144F187655@autox.team.net> Rick, I am running Inconel exhausts but want to change them to stainless for weight considerations. Had numerous valve train problems when RPM reached 7000 this summer. Charge air cooling can be added for about $1500.....could try water injection...... Skip At 08:25 AM 9/30/2008, Rick Byrnes wrote: >Skip >If you are seeing temps near 1800 degrees you need exhaust valves of >an improved material. Inconnel is suggested. >I have seen temps of 1850 and lived with my old turbo motors. >I should think you are ok with good valve material and Copper >Berillium valve seats. >Charge air cooling will help a bunch if it can be added to the Roots >blower???? > > >Rick From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org Tue Sep 30 09:46:25 2008 From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:46:25 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <37A8566939582C439A165159E7F7BDCB016CDEB8@cddgomsx03.durango-co.catholichealth.net> Dave D, Stock Miata cams, timing as allowed by the ecu, a/f "low 12s" as I remember. I don't have a sophisticated data collection system (haha) and merely read gauges after shutdown for the video tape. Well, it works "sort of" . . . I remember the EGT being around 1800 and staying up there for a while. Not the best data point, but since the boost levels were close it seemed worth mentioning. Thanks for the input, I'm always looking to learn. David in Durango -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave Dahlgren Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:33 AM To: Adin, David; Skip Higginbotham Cc: land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT tell me about the cam timing and ignition timing a/f ratios if you have them.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Adin, David" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > David, > Are you running a turbo? > Skip > > > > At 07:59 AM 9/30/2008, Adin, David wrote: >>Hi Skip, >> >>FWIW: 1600cc Miata, 22lbs boost EGT = ~1800. My a/f was right on. >> >>What I noticed was how long the temp stayed up there, keeping in mind I >>had never been in the boost for two miles on the street. >> >>My guess (and purely a SWAG) is: good a/f with this egt is ok. >> >>I'd ask Dahlgren . . . >> >>Regards, >> >>David in Durango >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net >>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On >>Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham >>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:51 AM >>To: land-speed at autox.team.net >>Subject: [Land-speed] EGT >> >>What should the EGT be on a BBC with an 8-71, gas and 22 lbs of boost >>at Bonneville? I'm seeing 1750. >>Thanks, >>Skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From ddahlgren at snet.net Tue Sep 30 10:02:21 2008 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:02:21 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <37A8566939582C439A165159E7F7BDCB016CDEB8@cddgomsx03.durango-co.catholichealth.net> References: <37A8566939582C439A165159E7F7BDCB016CDEB8@cddgomsx03.durango-co.catholichealth.net> Message-ID: <37AD723921E5459EA5EE3E14FEB8D31E@DaveSatellite> I was asking skip..LOL Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adin, David" To: "Dave Dahlgren" ; "Skip Higginbotham" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:46 AM Subject: RE: [Land-speed] EGT Dave D, Stock Miata cams, timing as allowed by the ecu, a/f "low 12s" as I remember. I don't have a sophisticated data collection system (haha) and merely read gauges after shutdown for the video tape. Well, it works "sort of" . . . I remember the EGT being around 1800 and staying up there for a while. Not the best data point, but since the boost levels were close it seemed worth mentioning. Thanks for the input, I'm always looking to learn. David in Durango -----Original Message----- From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net [mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave Dahlgren Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:33 AM To: Adin, David; Skip Higginbotham Cc: land-speed at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT tell me about the cam timing and ignition timing a/f ratios if you have them.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Adin, David" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > David, > Are you running a turbo? > Skip > > > > At 07:59 AM 9/30/2008, Adin, David wrote: >>Hi Skip, >> >>FWIW: 1600cc Miata, 22lbs boost EGT = ~1800. My a/f was right on. >> >>What I noticed was how long the temp stayed up there, keeping in mind I >>had never been in the boost for two miles on the street. >> >>My guess (and purely a SWAG) is: good a/f with this egt is ok. >> >>I'd ask Dahlgren . . . >> >>Regards, >> >>David in Durango >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net >>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On >>Behalf Of Skip Higginbotham >>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:51 AM >>To: land-speed at autox.team.net >>Subject: [Land-speed] EGT >> >>What should the EGT be on a BBC with an 8-71, gas and 22 lbs of boost >>at Bonneville? I'm seeing 1750. >>Thanks, >>Skip > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Land-speed mailing list > > You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed Land-speed mailing list You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 10:04:36 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:04:36 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> References: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <20080930160436.C6F34187655@autox.team.net> Hi Dave, Cam timing is 322 duration split, ignition timing is 30 degrees locked, a/f ratios are not accurate (according to gage engineering) due to short stacks, 12", and sensor about 4" from valve (1 cyl).....but it read .5 to .6 volts at power and RPM until the rockers both broke on that cyl. Skip At 08:33 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >tell me about the cam timing and ignition timing a/f ratios if you have them.. >Dave >----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "Adin, David" >Cc: >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > > >>David, >>Are you running a turbo? >>Skip >> >> >> >>At 07:59 AM 9/30/2008, Adin, David wrote: >>>Hi Skip, >>> >>>FWIW: 1600cc Miata, 22lbs boost EGT = ~1800. My a/f was right on. >>> >>>What I noticed was how long the temp stayed up there, keeping in mind I >>>had never been in the boost for two miles on the street. >>> >>>My guess (and purely a SWAG) is: good a/f with this egt is ok. >>> >>>I'd ask Dahlgren . . . >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>David in Durango From ddahlgren at snet.net Tue Sep 30 10:17:38 2008 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:17:38 -0400 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <200809301604.m8UG4a6c013867@flpi181.prodigy.net> References: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> <200809301604.m8UG4a6c013867@flpi181.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <413231E583894A9EAF5807F0E2A6BBB2@DaveSatellite> What is the lobe separation is the real number I am after do plugs look like it is a happy engine? I have run some pretty good overlap in a SC engine that would be too much for a turbo. 107 to 108 lobe centers with an intake centerline of 110 is pretty common. The idea is to blow a little fresh air over the piston to cool it down and screw the fuel consumption or brake specific readings this is not a mileage test..LOL The charge air cooling is a good idea on two fronts.. first it will make more power with less boost second it will lower the intake air temps a ton which will lower the egt as well. Right now I would bet the intake air temps are well over 300 possibly close to 400. If you drop the intake air temp 200 degrees the egt goes down with them. as you suggest the O2 sensor readings are probably not worth worrying about just read the plugs. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" To: "Dave Dahlgren" ; "Adin, David" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > Hi Dave, > Cam timing is 322 duration split, ignition timing is 30 degrees locked, > a/f ratios are not accurate (according to gage engineering) due to short > stacks, 12", and sensor about 4" from valve (1 cyl).....but it read .5 to > .6 volts at power and RPM until the rockers both broke on that cyl. > Skip > > > > > At 08:33 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >>tell me about the cam timing and ignition timing a/f ratios if you have >>them.. >>Dave >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >> >>To: "Adin, David" >>Cc: >>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM >>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT >> >> >>>David, >>>Are you running a turbo? >>>Skip >>> >>> >>> >>>At 07:59 AM 9/30/2008, Adin, David wrote: >>>>Hi Skip, >>>> >>>>FWIW: 1600cc Miata, 22lbs boost EGT = ~1800. My a/f was right on. >>>> >>>>What I noticed was how long the temp stayed up there, keeping in mind I >>>>had never been in the boost for two miles on the street. >>>> >>>>My guess (and purely a SWAG) is: good a/f with this egt is ok. >>>> >>>>I'd ask Dahlgren . . . >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>> >>>>David in Durango From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 10:54:16 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:54:16 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <413231E583894A9EAF5807F0E2A6BBB2@DaveSatellite> References: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> <200809301604.m8UG4a6c013867@flpi181.prodigy.net> <413231E583894A9EAF5807F0E2A6BBB2@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <20080930165416.0D3F3187683@autox.team.net> Dave, Lobe separation is 114, .750 valve lift, and the plugs look slightly rich. Skip At 09:17 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >What is the lobe separation is the real number I am after do plugs >look like it is a happy engine? I have run some pretty good overlap >in a SC engine that would be too much for a turbo. 107 to 108 lobe >centers with an intake centerline of 110 is pretty common. The idea >is to blow a little fresh air over the piston to cool it down and >screw the fuel consumption or brake specific readings this is not a >mileage test..LOL The charge air cooling is a good idea on two >fronts.. first it will make more power with less boost second it >will lower the intake air temps a ton which will lower the egt as >well. Right now I would bet the intake air temps are well over 300 >possibly close to 400. If you drop the intake air temp 200 degrees >the egt goes down with them. as you suggest the O2 sensor readings >are probably not worth worrying about just read the plugs. >Dave >----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "Dave Dahlgren" ; "Adin, David" > >Cc: >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:04 PM >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > > >>Hi Dave, >>Cam timing is 322 duration split, ignition timing is 30 degrees >>locked, a/f ratios are not accurate (according to gage engineering) >>due to short stacks, 12", and sensor about 4" from valve (1 >>cyl).....but it read .5 to .6 volts at power and RPM until the >>rockers both broke on that cyl. >>Skip >> >> >> >> >>At 08:33 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >>>tell me about the cam timing and ignition timing a/f ratios if you >>>have them.. >>>Dave >>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >>>To: "Adin, David" >>>Cc: >>>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 11:08:39 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:08:39 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: References: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> <200809301604.m8UG4a6c013867@flpi181.prodigy.net> <413231E583894A9EAF5807F0E2A6BBB2@DaveSatellite> <200809301654.m8UGsF6V027909@flpi194.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <20080930170844.C8E07187683@autox.team.net> I started with turbos and kept the cam. Wanted to keep the longer cam to help kill off low end torque and cool the pistons. Seems to have worked as we experienced very little wheel spin and still ran a 275 quarter. That could be the reason for the (seems like) high EGTs? Will look for an intercooler. Skip At 09:58 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >sounds like a turbo cam with an SC engine to me... >Dave >----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "Dave Dahlgren" ; "Adin, David" > >Cc: >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:54 PM >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > > >>Dave, >> Lobe separation is 114, .750 valve lift, and the plugs look slightly rich. >>Skip >> >> >> >> >>At 09:17 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >>>What is the lobe separation is the real number I am after do plugs >>>look like it is a happy engine? I have run some pretty good >>>overlap in a SC engine that would be too much for a turbo. 107 to >>>108 lobe centers with an intake centerline of 110 is pretty >>>common. The idea is to blow a little fresh air over the piston to >>>cool it down and screw the fuel consumption or brake specific >>>readings this is not a mileage test..LOL The charge air cooling is >>>a good idea on two fronts.. first it will make more power with >>>less boost second it will lower the intake air temps a ton which >>>will lower the egt as well. Right now I would bet the intake air >>>temps are well over 300 possibly close to 400. If you drop the >>>intake air temp 200 degrees the egt goes down with them. as you >>>suggest the O2 sensor readings are probably not worth worrying >>>about just read the plugs. >>>Dave >>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >>>To: "Dave Dahlgren" ; "Adin, David" >>> >>>Cc: >>>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:04 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT >>> >>> >>>>Hi Dave, >>>>Cam timing is 322 duration split, ignition timing is 30 degrees >>>>locked, a/f ratios are not accurate (according to gage >>>>engineering) due to short stacks, 12", and sensor about 4" from >>>>valve (1 cyl).....but it read .5 to .6 volts at power and RPM >>>>until the rockers both broke on that cyl. >>>>Skip >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>At 08:33 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >>>>>tell me about the cam timing and ignition timing a/f ratios if >>>>>you have them.. >>>>>Dave >>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >>>>> >>>>>To: "Adin, David" >>>>>Cc: >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 11:24:04 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:24:04 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <728BC6978FFF49CCB8D94A7BA5706BA4@DaveSatellite> References: <20080930150651.86423187655@autox.team.net> <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> <200809301604.m8UG4a6c013867@flpi181.prodigy.net> <413231E583894A9EAF5807F0E2A6BBB2@DaveSatellite> <200809301654.m8UGsF6V027909@flpi194.prodigy.net> <200809301708.m8UH8i1j012603@nlpi100.prodigy.net> <728BC6978FFF49CCB8D94A7BA5706BA4@DaveSatellite> Message-ID: <20080930172408.9391E187683@autox.team.net> Thank you , as always, for your learned opinion. I appreciate it! Will let you know how the proceedings go. Thanks again, Skip At 10:16 AM 9/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote: >It does to me on the egt.. you need to cool things a bit and the >only tool in the tool box lacking the intercooler is some air.. >Dave >----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Higginbotham" >To: "Dave Dahlgren" >Cc: >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:08 PM >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] EGT > > >> >>I started with turbos and kept the cam. Wanted to keep the longer >>cam to help kill off low end torque and cool the pistons. Seems to >>have worked as we experienced very little wheel spin and still ran >>a 275 quarter. That could be the reason for the (seems like) high >>EGTs? Will look for an intercooler. >>Skip From saltrat at pahrump.com Tue Sep 30 17:20:14 2008 From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:20:14 -0700 Subject: [Land-speed] EGT In-Reply-To: <37A8566939582C439A165159E7F7BDCB016CDEB8@cddgomsx03.durang o-co.catholichealth.net> References: <4852747CE9884AFE81241F6630FEA72F@DaveSatellite> <37A8566939582C439A165159E7F7BDCB016CDEB8@cddgomsx03.durango-co.catholichealth.net> Message-ID: <20080930232015.2B2C918767A@autox.team.net> David, Thank you for responding to my query. Although you are running turbos, the comparison of EGT is valuable to me. It tells me that I can run higher EGTs than I normally would and not be scared to death of burning pistons. Just have to be careful.....and as DD says, get an intercooler....or cool it off somehow......the "long" cam helps. Thanks again, Skip At 08:46 AM 9/30/2008, Adin, David wrote: >Dave D, >Stock Miata cams, timing as allowed by the ecu, a/f "low 12s" as I >remember. > >I don't have a sophisticated data collection system (haha) and merely >read gauges after shutdown for the video tape. Well, it works "sort of" >. . . I remember the EGT being around 1800 and staying up there for a >while. > >Not the best data point, but since the boost levels were close it seemed >worth mentioning. > >Thanks for the input, I'm always looking to learn. > >David in Durango > > ----- From wester6935 at comcast.net Tue Sep 30 20:46:43 2008 From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:46:43 -0600 Subject: [Land-speed] Anyone want a project car? Message-ID: <7AEFD8AD-ABA0-4C03-9222-D8D745A13CEF@comcast.net> http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=733005&nid=443&tab=list/view&ad=867032