From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Tue Jan  1 08:44:30 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:44:30 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] NON lsr HAPPY NEW YEAR
Message-ID: <4784DACD34E64FE3B880C075645C952C@LMS>

Best wishes for a Safe and Fast 2008 Race Card!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Jan  1 08:43:39 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:43:39 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
Message-ID: <001301c84c8d$1a372360$6401a8c0@Glens>

Just think, only 4 months and 15 days to the 1st lakes meet, better get busy,
looks like a two day event.
Happy New year

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Tue Jan  1 08:52:56 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (ddahlgren at snet.net)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:52:56 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
In-Reply-To: <001301c84c8d$1a372360$6401a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <000001c84c8e$609edc70$8701a8c0@SataliteM10405>

Hi I am trying to get in touch with Jon Amo. Talked to him before
Christmas and have not heard back from him since tried calling etc all
to no availl. Hope he and his family are ok..
Dave

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date:
1/1/2008 12:09 PM

From dlodom at charter.net  Tue Jan  1 09:28:23 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 08:28:23 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
In-Reply-To: <001301c84c8d$1a372360$6401a8c0@Glens>
References: <001301c84c8d$1a372360$6401a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <477A6A27.6030603@charter.net>

Glen Barrett wrote:

>Just think, only 4 months and 15 days to the 1st lakes meet, better get busy,
>looks like a two day event.
>Happy New year
>  
>
Not really Glen, Its only 62 days and a long plane ride.    Happy New Year

Doug in big ditch

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Jan  1 10:17:08 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:17:08 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
References: <001301c84c8d$1a372360$6401a8c0@Glens>
	<477A6A27.6030603@charter.net>
Message-ID: <002201c84c9a$24266630$6401a8c0@Glens>

Doug

They are on a different calendar down under. Best of luck to you. Wish I was 
going with you.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DougOdom" <dlodom at charter.net>
To: "Glen Barrett" <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
Cc: "landspeed at autox.team.net" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] time is nearing


> Glen Barrett wrote:
>
>>Just think, only 4 months and 15 days to the 1st lakes meet, better get 
>>busy,
>>looks like a two day event.
>>Happy New year
>>
> Not really Glen, Its only 62 days and a long plane ride.    Happy New Year
>
> Doug in big ditch

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 10:59:23 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:59:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
In-Reply-To: <001301c84c8d$1a372360$6401a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <963459.42973.qm@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As a matter of fact I went out and fired up the car just this weekend. The sound, smell of racing fuel, and vibration through the seat of my pants got me fired up and ready to go. I know it's not a true LSR event, but it's only two months and 27 days until the Texas Mile.  For me, that has been a three-year "prepare for Bonneville" event, and this March will be my final development test and tune to finally make it to Bonneville.  The car is about as ready as it's going to get, and I'm already planning the Utah trip. 
   
  DickJ
  In East Texas

Glen Barrett <speedtimer at beyondbb.com> wrote:
  Just think, only 4 months and 15 days to the 1st lakes meet, better get busy,
looks like a two day event.
Happy New year

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

From ed at vetteracing.com  Tue Jan  1 11:41:19 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:41:19 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
Message-ID: <W128302543312271199212879@webmail21>

I could do the math but save me the trouble Dick.... What are the dates for
the TM?
Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dick J [mailto:lsr_man at yahoo.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 10:59 AM
>To: 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] time is nearing
>
>As a matter of fact I went out and fired up the car just thisweekend. The
sound, smell of racing fuel, and vibration through theseat of my pants got me
fired up and ready to go. I know it's not atrue LSR event, but it's only two
months and 27 days until the TexasMile. For me, that has been a three-year
"prepare for Bonneville"event, and this March will be my final development
test and tune tofinally make it to Bonneville. The car is about as ready as
it's goingto get, and I'm already planning the Utah trip.
>
> DickJ
> In East Texas
>
>Glen Barrett <speedtimer at beyondbb.com> wrote:
> Just think, only 4 months and 15 days to the 1st lakes meet, better get
busy,
>looks like a two day event.
>Happy New year

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 14:40:22 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 13:40:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
In-Reply-To: <W128302543312271199212879@webmail21>
Message-ID: <566823.30192.qm@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Texas Mile is March 29-30, with a backup date of April 5-6.
   
  DickJ

Ed Van Scoy <ed at vetteracing.com> wrote:
  I could do the math but save me the trouble Dick.... What are the dates for the TM?
Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dick J [mailto:lsr_man at yahoo.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 10:59 AM
>To: 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] time is nearing
>
>As a matter of fact I went out and fired up the car just this weekend. The sound, smell of racing fuel, and vibration through the seat of my pants got me fired up and ready to go. I know it's not a true LSR event, but it's only two months and 27 days until the Texas Mile. For me, that has been a three-year "prepare for Bonneville" event, and this March will be my final development test and tune to finally make it to Bonneville. The car is about as ready as it's going to get, and I'm already planning the Utah trip. 
> 
> DickJ
> In East Texas
>
>Glen Barrett <speedtimer at beyondbb.com> wrote:
> Just think, only 4 months and 15 days to the 1st lakes meet, better get busy,
>looks like a two day event.
>Happy New year
>



       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

From ed at vetteracing.com  Tue Jan  1 20:55:03 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 03:55:03 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] time is nearing
Message-ID: <W460527825276061199246103@webmail16>

Thanks Dick, and a happy new year to all!!!

Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


-----Original Message-----
From: Dick J [mailto:lsr_man at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 02:40 PM
To: 'Ed Van Scoy', 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] time is nearing

Texas Mile is March 29-30, with a backup date of April 5-6.

DickJ

Ed Van Scoy <ed at vetteracing.com> wrote:
I could do the math but save me the trouble Dick.... What are the dates for
the TM?
Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dick J [mailto:lsr_man at yahoo.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 10:59 AM
>To: 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] time is nearing
>
>Asa matter of fact I went out and fired up the car just this weekend.
Thesound, smell of racing fuel, and vibration through the seat of my pantsgot
me fired up and ready to go. I know it's not a true LSR event, butit's only
two months and 27 days until the Texas Mile. For me, that hasbeen a three-year
"prepare for Bonneville" event, and this March willbe my final development
test and tune to finally make it to Bonneville.The car is about as ready as
it's going to get, and I'm alreadyplanning the Utah trip.
>
> DickJ
> In East Texas
>
>Glen Barrett <speedtimer at beyondbb.com> wrote:
> Just think, only 4 months and 15 days to the 1st lakes meet, better get
busy,
>looks like a two day event.
>Happy New year
>




------------------------------------------------------------
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your homepage.

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Wed Jan  2 08:37:54 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:37:54 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Australia gets tough on drag racing ...
Message-ID: <91D14D56-7FFC-42AE-BC58-043C43BB9461@comcast.net>

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0157786120080101?feedType=nl&feedName=usmorningdigest

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Jan  2 10:52:28 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:52:28 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic, NON LSR BUt Auto Related..
Message-ID: <477BCF5C.4070506@mayfco.com>

One of the other email lists I am on sent the following web site link. 
It is an Auction site and they are offering the contents of a complete 
racing shop. All parts are in St. Paul. Bidding ends on the 10th of Jan 
and all stuff must be picked up Jan 14th & 15th.

There are a number of items I would bid on, but travelling to St. Paul 
in mid January is out of the question for me.  First, is there anyone on 
the list who would be willing to pick up the stuff, and some of it is 
HEAVY, for me until either speedweek or WOS and deliver there? Otherwise 
I wont bid.

Here is the  url    http://www.k-bid.com <http://www.k-bid.com>

click on the current auctions and then scroll down until you reach the 
King Cobra auction. Approximately 250 items for sale. Looks like a race 
team went belly up and or something otherwise drastic happened.

Thanks for listening  and for those close, bid away! Looks like someof 
the bids are pretty low...

mayf

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan  2 11:25:18 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:25:18 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic, NON LSR BUt Auto Related..
In-Reply-To: <477BCF5C.4070506@mayfco.com>
References: <477BCF5C.4070506@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <030401c84d6c$d40b3490$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Thanks, Mayf; lots of Ford stuff there, only a few Chevy parts. If it
weren't so far I'd bid on a couple of items too.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
drmayf
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:52 AM
To: LSR
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic, NON LSR BUt Auto Related..

One of the other email lists I am on sent the following web site link. 
It is an Auction site and they are offering the contents of a complete 
racing shop. All parts are in St. Paul. Bidding ends on the 10th of Jan 
and all stuff must be picked up Jan 14th & 15th.

There are a number of items I would bid on, but travelling to St. Paul 
in mid January is out of the question for me.  First, is there anyone on 
the list who would be willing to pick up the stuff, and some of it is 
HEAVY, for me until either speedweek or WOS and deliver there? Otherwise 
I wont bid.

Here is the  url    http://www.k-bid.com <http://www.k-bid.com>

click on the current auctions and then scroll down until you reach the 
King Cobra auction. Approximately 250 items for sale. Looks like a race 
team went belly up and or something otherwise drastic happened.

Thanks for listening  and for those close, bid away! Looks like someof 
the bids are pretty low...

mayf

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan  2 11:27:18 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:27:18 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Australia gets tough on drag racing ...
In-Reply-To: <91D14D56-7FFC-42AE-BC58-043C43BB9461@comcast.net>
References: <91D14D56-7FFC-42AE-BC58-043C43BB9461@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <030501c84d6d$1bd224f0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

OK, Wes but who won?

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Wester Potter
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:38 AM
To: LAND SPEED LIST
Subject: [Land-speed] Australia gets tough on drag racing ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0157786120080101?feedTyp
e=nl&feedName=usmorningdigest

From yesford at clear.net.nz  Wed Jan  2 14:01:58 2008
From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:01:58 +1300
Subject: [Land-speed] Australia gets tough on drag racing ...
References: <91D14D56-7FFC-42AE-BC58-043C43BB9461@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7698ADF08371438FB6B917567D027AA7@ChrisHarrisPC>

As they were a New Zealand couple, it was on local TV News. Both cars
concerned were trucked away then the police kindly using a police station
wagon with due door opening pomp & ceremony, delivered the wedded couple to
their destination............great PR.
Chris H..........NZed

  http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0157786120080101?feedTy
pe=nl&feedName=usmorningdigest

From jon at infodestruction.com  Thu Jan  3 07:37:37 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:37:37 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Attn:  M/C racers
Message-ID: <61D89328-0EF2-46A4-B96B-718A4B56F016@infodestruction.com>

Here's a link to a good method of chain cleaning:

http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Thu Jan  3 07:46:06 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 06:46:06 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Attn:  M/C racers
Message-ID: <18303142.1199371566690.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Great site.Jon..........No way was I sucked it to that!!!!!!


>Here's a link to a good method of chain cleaning:
>
>http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

From ecpurinton at wildblue.net  Thu Jan  3 14:48:41 2008
From: ecpurinton at wildblue.net (Ed Purinton)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:48:41 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Attn: M/C racers
Message-ID: <477D5839.4040509@wildblue.net>

Slim,

     Still weighing the merits of the chain cleaning/lubing  system vs 
my traditional rinse in kerosene and cook new lube into them using an 
old iron skillet on the kitchen stove while the bride is out shopping.

     Being a tool freak that Tork-Grip looks like a must order for me.  
Would have come in real handy setting the injectors on Cummins V-200M's 
years ago.

     Side note to let you know you have been slipping this season and 
letting entirely too much snow get by you as it goes by only to drop 
here on the ridge.  If it doesn't turn into too much mud hope to be able 
to get down to Maxton to see you and everybody in April.

                        Ed Purinton

From john.szalay at att.net  Fri Jan  4 13:25:02 2008
From: john.szalay at att.net (John Szalay)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:25:02 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] 5.655 cubic inches Supercharged V-8  (NON-LSR)
Message-ID: <010420082025.3509.477E961E0007E31400000DB522243651029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E040E969CD202080106@att.net>

Too cold here to go out..  SO

http://www.weberprecision.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8TXMUaC9Os

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sat Jan  5 13:01:58 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:01:58 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
Message-ID: <477FE236.9070801@mayfco.com>

We were invited to bring the red race car and our Tiger to a gathering 
of loyal Sunbeam enthusiasts at Big Bear next June. To that end the wife 
and I decided (mostly her) that the Orange Tiger needed a bit of refurb 
to include a new paint job. Since this is to be a special really god job 
the painter and I decided to strip the car down to the buff pretty much. 
So for the last week I have been field stripping the Tiger in prep for 
paint prep. LSR content: this kept me from finishing my T72 Turbo hot 
side plumbing but I can now get back onto that.

I must say, that I never want to build headers from scratch ever never 
again. Never, did I say that? Yeah, never. Especially in a car that has 
no room anywhere. I am now doing the finishing welding and there are a 
million places to weld. Hopefully will finish this week though. One of 
the SUnbeam Tiger guys has offered to coat them for me for free but he 
may back out when he hears how much pipe there is. Two headers like 
shorties, one massive cross over with the turbo mount, and waste gate 
flanges and three v band clamps, and a waste gate dump pipe that 
connects to both waste gates. I will have several hours of just finish 
grinding ala porting to make the flows as smooth as my welding permits, 
lol.  Then I can put that sucker back together and get ready to run in 
August and Sept and October...

Oh, and today is my 66th birthday. I am an old(er) geezer now. Got a 
great gift from my wife (no, not that!) which is a book I have longed to 
have:   100 Suns.    A picture book  with the 100 best nuclear 
explosions during our atmospheric testing.

mayf

From jdincau at qnet.com  Sat Jan  5 16:02:43 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:02:43 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
References: <477FE236.9070801@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <004601c84fef$155cf210$0500000a@Den>

Well happy birthday youngster, I was 67 yesterday.
Jim in Palmdale, where it is actually raining wonder of wonders


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 12:01 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.


> We were invited to bring the red race car and our Tiger to a gathering
> of loyal Sunbeam enthusiasts at Big Bear next June. To that end the wife
> and I decided (mostly her) that the Orange Tiger needed a bit of refurb
> to include a new paint job. Since this is to be a special really god job
> the painter and I decided to strip the car down to the buff pretty much.
> So for the last week I have been field stripping the Tiger in prep for
> paint prep. LSR content: this kept me from finishing my T72 Turbo hot
> side plumbing but I can now get back onto that.
>
> I must say, that I never want to build headers from scratch ever never
> again. Never, did I say that? Yeah, never. Especially in a car that has
> no room anywhere. I am now doing the finishing welding and there are a
> million places to weld. Hopefully will finish this week though. One of
> the SUnbeam Tiger guys has offered to coat them for me for free but he
> may back out when he hears how much pipe there is. Two headers like
> shorties, one massive cross over with the turbo mount, and waste gate
> flanges and three v band clamps, and a waste gate dump pipe that
> connects to both waste gates. I will have several hours of just finish
> grinding ala porting to make the flows as smooth as my welding permits,
> lol.  Then I can put that sucker back together and get ready to run in
> August and Sept and October...
>
> Oh, and today is my 66th birthday. I am an old(er) geezer now. Got a
> great gift from my wife (no, not that!) which is a book I have longed to
> have:   100 Suns.    A picture book  with the 100 best nuclear
> explosions during our atmospheric testing.
>
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as jdincau at qnet.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sat Jan  5 17:34:16 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 17:34:16 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 66
Message-ID: <4CC22044244B4E19A8F44CE3F8633BD9@LMS>

boy do i feel like a kid---I dont get to deal with that for six more
monts!!!!!!!!  lol
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sat Jan  5 18:46:59 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:46:59 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] 66
In-Reply-To: <4CC22044244B4E19A8F44CE3F8633BD9@LMS>
References: <4CC22044244B4E19A8F44CE3F8633BD9@LMS>
Message-ID: <47803313.4030200@mayfco.com>

Sparky.2211 wrote:

>boy do i feel like a kid---I dont get to deal with that for six more
>monts!!!!!!!!  lol
>      Sparky
>AA/_ L  2211
>Gear Grinder-SCTA
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>
>
>
>  
>
Just be sure to respect your elders..

mayf

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Sat Jan  5 19:37:55 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 21:37:55 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR, new air powered car
Message-ID: <001f01c8500d$24b3cfe0$2101a8c0@WinXP>

Something to ponder--see web site below.

In my opinion, this looks like a combination of basic principles with some
innovative ideas---basically it's a hybrid car which uses compressed air
storage instead of batteries to store energy. In either case you have to burn
fuel to compress air (or to charge batteries) so there is no big advance over
other hybrid technologies.

Charge/discharge turnaround efficiency for batteries is about 65%. I'm
guessing that when all losses are accounted for the turnaround efficiency for
compressed air will be about the same or maybe less. For short ranges without
running the combustion engine, this system may have a lower overall weight.
But batteries have a higher energy storage density so the non-combustion range
will be greater for battery hybrids.

Compressed air powered vehicles are nothing new--about 1900 small compressed
air locomotives were regularly used for dock-side duty and were recharged at a
centralized compressed air station.

http://www.theaircar.com/

Lance

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Sat Jan  5 20:24:12 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 22:24:12 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR
Message-ID: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>

I know there's a lot of guys on this list follow this thing every  
year,especially Keith Turk, and are very dissappointed by this situation. Here's  the 
News story...
_http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196_ 
(http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196) 
Bob W



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From rbuck at xmission.com  Sat Jan  5 20:41:26 2008
From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:41:26 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR
In-Reply-To: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
References: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <E1JBMO1-0005Cc-3V@mgr1.xmission.com>

I couldn't get to that site but here's an article on msnbc:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22502229/

Major bummer!  There must be a real wide range of emotion among the 
competitors/viewers/sponsors/etc....

Ray the Rat


At 08:24 PM 1/5/2008, BWANA343 at aol.com wrote:
>I know there's a lot of guys on this list follow this thing every
>year,especially Keith Turk, and are very dissappointed by this 
>situation. Here's  the
>News story...
>_http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196_
>(http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196)
>Bob W
>
>
>
>**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.
>http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as rbuck at xmission.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ed at vetteracing.com  Sat Jan  5 20:50:42 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:50:42 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
Message-ID: <W909845712150221199591442@webmail22>

Happy birthday Mayf! 66 is not old..... If you aresea turtle ;-) Congrats on
the Sunbeam invites. You can still hitthat 200 mark by the Big Bear bash if ya
bring it out to El Mirage inMay! Heck, it's just dirt & it washes off
(usually) And wheredid Cathy get such an exotic gift?? I bet we all could put
a booktogether of the best 100 internal engine explosions........
Ed
(raining here too)

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Dincau [mailto:jdincau at qnet.com]
>Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2008 04:02 PM
>To: drmayf at mayfco.com, 'LSR'
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
>
>Well happy birthday youngster, I was 67 yesterday.
>Jim in Palmdale, where it is actually raining wonder of wonders
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
>To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 12:01 PM
>Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
>
>
>> We were invited to bring the red race car and our Tiger to a gathering
>> of loyal Sunbeam enthusiasts at Big Bear next June. To that end the wife
>> and I decided (mostly her) that the Orange Tiger needed a bit of refurb
>> to include a new paint job. Since this is to be a special really god job
>> the painter and I decided to strip the car down to the buff pretty much.
>> So for the last week I have been field stripping the Tiger in prep for
>> paint prep. LSR content: this kept me from finishing my T72 Turbo hot
>> side plumbing but I can now get back onto that.
>>
>> I must say, that I never want to build headers from scratch ever never
>> again. Never, did I say that? Yeah, never. Especially in a car that has
>> no room anywhere. I am now doing the finishing welding and there are a
>> million places to weld. Hopefully will finish this week though. One of
>> the SUnbeam Tiger guys has offered to coat them for me for free but he
>> may back out when he hears how much pipe there is. Two headers like
>> shorties, one massive cross over with the turbo mount, and waste gate
>> flanges and three v band clamps, and a waste gate dump pipe that
>> connects to both waste gates. I will have several hours of just finish
>> grinding ala porting to make the flows as smooth as my welding permits,
>> lol. Then I can put that sucker back together and get ready to run in
>> August and Sept and October...
>>
>> Oh, and today is my 66th birthday. I am an old(er) geezer now. Got a
>> great gift from my wife (no, not that!) which is a book I have longed to
>> have: 100 Suns. A picture book with the 100 best nuclear
>> explosions during our atmospheric testing.
>>
>> mayf

From ifixmgs at cox.net  Sun Jan  6 05:54:57 2008
From: ifixmgs at cox.net (ifixmgs at cox.net)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 7:54:57 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
In-Reply-To: <W909845712150221199591442@webmail22>
Message-ID: <20080106075457.FQAX1.232106.root@eastrmwml27.mgt.cox.net>

Mayf -
 Happy Birthday!    Compared to the 250 million year old bacteria they found last month  at the edge of the Flats on the Floating Mountain side,  you're semi-brand new...  It was on Leno just the other night.  The bacteria was found by NASA researchers,  in a state of suspended animation.    So Jay says to the audience,   "..... the first thing they wanted to know, after being hosed off  and coming back to life was,  "Hey, did Mayf ever  get that Sunbeam finished?"  


Mark C 
At the edge of the Great Dismal Swamp where the same skeeters 
that bit George Washington have taken a bite out of me...


---- Ed Van Scoy <ed at vetteracing.com> wrote: 
> Happy birthday Mayf! 66 is not old..... If you aresea turtle ;-) Congrats on
> the Sunbeam invites. You can still hitthat 200 mark by the Big Bear bash if ya
> bring it out to El Mirage inMay! 

From jon at infodestruction.com  Sun Jan  6 09:33:51 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:33:51 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] NON-LSR, new air powered car
In-Reply-To: <001f01c8500d$24b3cfe0$2101a8c0@WinXP>
References: <001f01c8500d$24b3cfe0$2101a8c0@WinXP>
Message-ID: <E676CAA8-84FF-43E2-8C8F-E6CD700E24A9@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 5, 2008, at 9:37 PM, joseph lance wrote:

l be greater for battery hybrids.

Compressed air powered vehicles are nothing new--about 1900 small  
compressed
air locomotives were regularly used for dock-side duty and were  
recharged at a
centralized compressed air station.

Lance






A good handful of years ago (at least) one of the big national  
freight lines used compressed air for starting their diesel truck  
engines.  You'd see a 6-8' tall tank mounted behind the cab on each  
truck.  I expect that they'd be able to use the on-board compressor  
to fill the tank during regular operation, and filling the tank at  
the shop would work, too.  Maybe this was in the 6 volt system days  
-- when jump-starting took some pretty massive cables and jumper  
batteries.

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Sun Jan  6 11:00:38 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:00:38 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR
In-Reply-To: <E1JBMO1-0005Cc-3V@mgr1.xmission.com>
References: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
	<E1JBMO1-0005Cc-3V@mgr1.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <20080106180128.BE5A11879F4@autox.team.net>

The French are at it again! All they have to do is change the 
route..........The story suggested that.....Robby Gordon no less. I 
guess now the al Kaida runs not only France but their mere threat of 
terrorism shuts down races........what about The salt and how soon 
will they screw that up?
Skip




At 07:41 PM 1/5/2008, Ray Buck wrote:
>I couldn't get to that site but here's an article on msnbc:
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22502229/
>
>Major bummer!  There must be a real wide range of emotion among the
>competitors/viewers/sponsors/etc....
>
>Ray the Rat
>
>
>At 08:24 PM 1/5/2008, BWANA343 at aol.com wrote:
> >I know there's a lot of guys on this list follow this thing every
> >year,especially Keith Turk, and are very dissappointed by this
> >situation. Here's  the
> >News story...
> >_http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196_
> >(http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196)
> >Bob W
> >
> >
> >
> >**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.
> >http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
> >_______________________________________________
> >Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> >Land-speed mailing list
> >
> >You are subscribed as rbuck at xmission.com
> >
> >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as saltrat at pahrump.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From landspeed at doesnotplaywellwithothers.net  Sun Jan  6 11:02:36 2008
From: landspeed at doesnotplaywellwithothers.net (LandSpeed)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:02:36 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR
In-Reply-To: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
References: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002401c8508e$5583d3a0$008b7ae0$@net>

Add a bounty on the head of any Al Qaida head brought back and I'll start to
build my land rover for next year!!!

Let them hate as long as they fear!!!!


-----Original Message-----
From:
land-speed-bounces+landspeed=doesnotplaywellwithothers.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+landspeed=doesnotplaywellwithothers.net at autox.tea
m.net] On Behalf Of BWANA343 at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:24 PM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR

I know there's a lot of guys on this list follow this thing every  
year,especially Keith Turk, and are very dissappointed by this situation.
Here's  the 
News story...
_http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196_ 
(http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196) 
Bob W



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as landspeed at doesnotplaywellwithothers.net

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From landspeed at doesnotplaywellwithothers.net  Sun Jan  6 11:03:45 2008
From: landspeed at doesnotplaywellwithothers.net (LandSpeed)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:03:45 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR
In-Reply-To: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
References: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002501c8508e$7dccc8d0$79665a70$@net>

Sorry.....my red neck came out for a minute.



-----Original Message-----
From:
land-speed-bounces+landspeed=doesnotplaywellwithothers.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+landspeed=doesnotplaywellwithothers.net at autox.tea
m.net] On Behalf Of BWANA343 at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:24 PM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR

I know there's a lot of guys on this list follow this thing every  
year,especially Keith Turk, and are very dissappointed by this situation.
Here's  the 
News story...
_http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196_ 
(http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=673196) 
Bob W



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as landspeed at doesnotplaywellwithothers.net

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From jauguston at msn.com  Sun Jan  6 11:17:45 2008
From: jauguston at msn.com (Jim Auguston)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:17:45 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
Message-ID: <BAY105-DAV789C9CAE85AC9F985E01DAF4E0@phx.gbl>

Slim,

The air start on trucks was done to reduce weight. They had one car size 12v
battery for lighting instead of the 24v 4-6v battery system, a small
alternator and the air starter was light. Consolidated Freight Lines had
hundreds of tractors with that system. If the air was low they could jump
start them with the trailer air hose from another tractor.

Jim

From kturk at ala.net  Sun Jan  6 11:21:40 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:21:40 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally Cancellation/non LSR
References: <c9e.1ff2df32.34b1a3dc@aol.com>
	<002401c8508e$5583d3a0$008b7ae0$@net>
Message-ID: <038f01c85090$fcfe3510$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

Yeah.... The French are now getting the rich rewards for their meek minded 
ways...

Keith  ( candy ass bastards ) 

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sun Jan  6 11:26:18 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:26:18 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
In-Reply-To: <20080106075457.FQAX1.232106.root@eastrmwml27.mgt.cox.net>
References: <20080106075457.FQAX1.232106.root@eastrmwml27.mgt.cox.net>
Message-ID: <47811D4A.7000004@mayfco.com>

And, of course, the answer was, no, he is still working on it. MAybe 
this summer...

mayf
ifixmgs at cox.net wrote:

>Mayf -
> Happy Birthday!    Compared to the 250 million year old bacteria they found last month  at the edge of the Flats on the Floating Mountain side,  you're semi-brand new...  It was on Leno just the other night.  The bacteria was found by NASA researchers,  in a state of suspended animation.    So Jay says to the audience,   "..... the first thing they wanted to know, after being hosed off  and coming back to life was,  "Hey, did Mayf ever  get that Sunbeam finished?"  
>
>
>Mark C 
>At the edge of the Great Dismal Swamp where the same skeeters 
>that bit George Washington have taken a bite out of me...
>
>
>---- Ed Van Scoy <ed at vetteracing.com> wrote: 
>  
>
>>Happy birthday Mayf! 66 is not old..... If you aresea turtle ;-) Congrats on
>>the Sunbeam invites. You can still hitthat 200 mark by the Big Bear bash if ya
>>bring it out to El Mirage inMay! 

From jon at infodestruction.com  Sun Jan  6 11:49:45 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:49:45 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-DAV789C9CAE85AC9F985E01DAF4E0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-DAV789C9CAE85AC9F985E01DAF4E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F5C2D2A4-3CA5-4336-9A81-0FC21BC99692@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 6, 2008, at 1:17 PM, Jim Auguston wrote:

Slim,

The air start on trucks was done to reduce weight. They had one car  
size 12v
battery for lighting instead of the 24v 4-6v battery system, a small
alternator and the air starter was light. Consolidated Freight Lines had
hundreds of tractors with that system. If the air was low they could  
jump
start them with the trailer air hose from another tractor.

Jim



See why I like this list?  I learn stuff.  Thanks, Jim.

But -- you mean to say that that big tank weighed less than three  
batteries?  Today's truck batteries are about 60# or so, and I'd  
think that the 6V ones were similar.  So all that big tank weighed  
less than 150# or so?  Hmmmm...

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Sun Jan  6 12:15:39 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:15:39 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally cancelled
Message-ID: <1BD38D54-EB63-417E-A31D-BFC247C107A3@comcast.net>

Wonder what Speed Channel will fill the time slots with.

From ol38y at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 12:13:51 2008
From: ol38y at yahoo.com (Larry Cason)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:13:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Re-air starter
Message-ID: <368352.28459.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Slim, there are still companys that use the air starters. A couple dirt haulers out here do, for the payload. Never cared for them myself, figured there was a lot easier ways to save weight. I've had a couple 4-6v battery systems, but they were still 12v, with a positive ground. What a nightmare when installing newer electronics...
   
  See ya'll on the salt..
   
  Larry

From Bobbyhotrods at comcast.net  Sun Jan  6 12:55:09 2008
From: Bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (Bobbyhotrods at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:55:09 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Strength Question
Message-ID: <010620081955.25496.4781321C000F24560000639822092299279C0B019D9B0108970D0D01BD@comcast.net>

My motor man has scared me with stories of what falls off 4 cylinder race cars due to vibrations.
"They didn't stop racing Offys because they didn't make enough power, they stopped because the cars would break before the race ended".
In that regard I am strengthening everything hanging off my motor. My question in particular regards the strengthening of a big bracket that holds my icewater intercooler off the front of the motor. It's held there with stout 3.5" bushings over thru studs screwed into the cast iron head. 
Would it be stronger if the bushings were welded to the bracket, or am I thinking too much?
Thanks, BJ in Beantown

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  6 13:11:35 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:11:35 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Strength Question
In-Reply-To: <010620081955.25496.4781321C000F24560000639822092299279C0B019D9B0108970D0D01BD@comcast.net>
References: <010620081955.25496.4781321C000F24560000639822092299279C0B019D9B0108970D0D01BD@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W405F4B98DA788B43FC463D94E0@phx.gbl>

Bobby,  Bobby,... Bobby!

  they stopped racing Offy's because their technology was 1930's state of the
art, and rules were finally written making it more advantageous for other
engines to compete and win against them.

Your 'engine guy' must have forgot how many years Offenhauser's DOMINATED.
What is he on ?  crack ?   LOL!

Answer to Q:    weld it.     what the hell.   why not.


  cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"

        in exile, but, who still saw some real fun indoor short-track M/C
races last night in Middletown NY...

               - on a concrete floor.    Utter Chaos.     our kind of fun.

       FAIR WARNING EVERYBODY:

       Next Saturday night Jan 12, live on HBO Pay-per-View for the very first
time;  the Chili Bowl from Tulsa.
                           5 hours of it.  Over 300 entries.   Check your
listings.  BE there or BE square!


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------

> From: Bobbyhotrods at comcast.net
> To: Land-speed at Autox.team.net
> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:55:09 +0000
> Subject: [Land-speed] Strength Question
>
> My motor man has scared me with stories of what falls off 4 cylinder race
cars due to vibrations.

  "They didn't stop racing Offys because they didn't make enough power, they
stopped because the cars would break before the race ended".

 In that regard I am strengthening everything hanging off my motor. My
question in particular regards the strengthening of a big bracket that holds
my icewater intercooler off the front of the motor. It's held there with stout
3.5" bushings over thru studs screwed into the cast iron head.

 Would it be stronger if the bushings were welded to the bracket, or am I
thinking too much?

        Thanks, BJ in Beantown

_________________________________________________________________
Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people making a real difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause

From ed at vetteracing.com  Sun Jan  6 13:29:26 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:29:26 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally cancelled
Message-ID: <W513107918151121199651366@webmail10>

Prolly re-runs of LAST year's Barret-Jackson rip-off........

Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Wester Potter [mailto:wester6935 at comcast.net]
>Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2008 12:15 PM
>To: 'LAND SPEED LIST'
>Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally cancelled
>
>Wonder what Speed Channel will fill the time slots with.
>_______________________________________________

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  6 13:35:39 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:35:39 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <F5C2D2A4-3CA5-4336-9A81-0FC21BC99692@infodestruction.com>
References: <BAY105-DAV789C9CAE85AC9F985E01DAF4E0@phx.gbl>
	<F5C2D2A4-3CA5-4336-9A81-0FC21BC99692@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W14E523AFE32C5F8CAB093D94E0@phx.gbl>

Jon: gotta have that tank anyway:  trucks got AIR brakes.     Even way up
north  ;-)

    your'e learnin'  ;-)               LOL


  cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"   CDL Driver,   in exile in So. New York,


  -22 miles from Square Deal Raceway,

  -21 miles east of Action Park Speedway,

   -63 miles northeast of Champion Speedway

   -105 miles south of "the  Syracuse  Mile" ...

   -265 miles north of Williams Grove Speedway

   -2325 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats

     and never more than a few feet from a cold one


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
> From: jon at infodestruction.com
> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:49:45 -0500
> To: jauguston at msn.com
> CC: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
>
> On Jan 6, 2008, at 1:17 PM, Jim Auguston wrote:
>
> Slim,
>
> The air start on trucks was done to reduce weight. They had one car
> size 12v
> battery for lighting instead of the 24v 4-6v battery system, a small
> alternator and the air starter was light. Consolidated Freight Lines had
> hundreds of tractors with that system. If the air was low they could
> jump
> start them with the trailer air hose from another tractor.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> See why I like this list?  I learn stuff.  Thanks, Jim.
>
> But -- you mean to say that that big tank weighed less than three
> batteries?  Today's truck batteries are about 60# or so, and I'd
> think that the 6V ones were similar.  So all that big tank weighed
> less than 150# or so?  Hmmmm...
>
>                  Jon Wennerberg
> Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
>               Marquette, Michigan
>               (that's 'way up north)

_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008

From jon at infodestruction.com  Sun Jan  6 14:12:49 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:12:49 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <BAY135-W14E523AFE32C5F8CAB093D94E0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-DAV789C9CAE85AC9F985E01DAF4E0@phx.gbl>
	<F5C2D2A4-3CA5-4336-9A81-0FC21BC99692@infodestruction.com>
	<BAY135-W14E523AFE32C5F8CAB093D94E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <90DEE3FD-A6A0-42CA-9F96-3BD230A86D7F@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 6, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Doug Anderson wrote:

Jon: gotta have that tank anyway:  trucks got AIR brakes.     Even  
way up north  ;-)

     your'e learnin'  ;-)               LOL




No, Doug, you won't get me on that one.  We've got a semi tractor now  
-- and it's got a pair of air tanks -- each about 8-10" dia. x 24"  
long.  The ones that were on the semis that I remember (for air  
starting) were a couple of feet in dia. and about 6-8' tall.

Gullible, yes.  Extra gullible -- not today!

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From dwarner230 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 14:15:09 2008
From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:15:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <90DEE3FD-A6A0-42CA-9F96-3BD230A86D7F@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <591024.55463.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

How heavy can the tank be? Its full of air.
   
  DW

Jon Wennerberg <jon at infodestruction.com> wrote:
  On Jan 6, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Doug Anderson wrote:

Jon: gotta have that tank anyway: trucks got AIR brakes. Even 
way up north ;-)

your'e learnin' ;-) LOL




No, Doug, you won't get me on that one. We've got a semi tractor now 
-- and it's got a pair of air tanks -- each about 8-10" dia. x 24" 
long. The ones that were on the semis that I remember (for air 
starting) were a couple of feet in dia. and about 6-8' tall.

Gullible, yes. Extra gullible -- not today!

Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
Marquette, Michigan
(that's 'way up north)
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed


       
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From jon at infodestruction.com  Sun Jan  6 14:28:41 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:28:41 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <591024.55463.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <591024.55463.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <25E38205-2CCB-4BF2-90D7-CABA68EB1AF7@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:15 PM, dan warner wrote:

How heavy can the tank be? Its full of air.

DW





Dan, we'd probably have to ask Mayf to tell us how heavy the tank  
might be when full of air.  I expect the heaviness of the tank due to  
the air is a function of the time of day when the tank was filled,  
and also maybe the altitude above average terrain of the filling  
station.  Then factor in the distant relative humidity and the  
specific gravity of the situation -- well, let's leave it to Mayf.   
Have a nice day.

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  6 14:49:54 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:49:54 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <90DEE3FD-A6A0-42CA-9F96-3BD230A86D7F@infodestruction.com>
References: <BAY105-DAV789C9CAE85AC9F985E01DAF4E0@phx.gbl>
	<F5C2D2A4-3CA5-4336-9A81-0FC21BC99692@infodestruction.com>
	<BAY135-W14E523AFE32C5F8CAB093D94E0@phx.gbl>
	<90DEE3FD-A6A0-42CA-9F96-3BD230A86D7F@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W86E48D02AD7FBE5AEFCA1D94E0@phx.gbl>

   tou'che                   now you got me                 LOL!

    I allas thought they used da' same tanks.

   shame on me !


cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"

CC: jauguston at msn.com; land-speed at autox.team.net
From: jon at infodestruction.com
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:12:49 -0500
To: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com


On Jan 6, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Doug Anderson wrote:Jon: gotta have that tank
anyway:  trucks got AIR brakes.     Even way up north  ;-)    your'e learnin'
;-)               LOL
 No, Doug, you won't get me on that one.  We've got a semi tractor now -- and
it's got a pair of air tanks -- each about 8-10" dia. x 24" long.  The ones
that were on the semis that I remember (for air starting) were a couple of
feet in dia. and about 6-8' tall.Gullible, yes.  Extra gullible -- not today!
Jon WennerbergSeldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing             Marquette,
Michigan             (that's 'way up north)

_________________________________________________________________
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008

From yesford at clear.net.nz  Sun Jan  6 15:08:22 2008
From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:08:22 +1300
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
References: <591024.55463.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<25E38205-2CCB-4BF2-90D7-CABA68EB1AF7@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <2402A1BD917F4E5BA023B31D75A02E58@ChrisHarrisPC>

Dan, air's bout one 1/12 of a pound per cubic foot.
Cheers Mate,
Chris H.............NZed.

  On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:15 PM, dan warner wrote:

  How heavy can the tank be? Its full of air.

  DW

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Sun Jan  6 15:43:06 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:43:06 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally cancelled
Message-ID: <cec.25b1378d.34b2b37a@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/6/2008 3:30:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
ed at vetteracing.com writes:

Prolly  re-runs of LAST year's Barret-Jackson  rip-off........



Or "Pinks," Speedvision's answer to Dancing with the stars or American  Idol. 
Newton Minnow, the FCC guy who said TV was a "vast wasteland," would be  
amazed to see how far network AND cable have sunk.
I think there's room for live LSR from all the venues. But then we get  
"discovered" and there'll be LSR of Champions. LSR Celebrity challenge, maybe  even 
a LSR award show that only minorities win? Ooops,that was uncalled for,  
racist,prejudicial, and un-PC. But I think funny, so there. 
Bob, ready for LSR Jeopardy,W



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Sun Jan  6 16:32:42 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:32:42 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <25E38205-2CCB-4BF2-90D7-CABA68EB1AF7@infodestruction.com>
References: <591024.55463.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<25E38205-2CCB-4BF2-90D7-CABA68EB1AF7@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <A8B4AC4F-1562-4741-9D34-57083EFC6071@comcast.net>

Don't forget the temperature of the air.  Using hot air balloons as an  
example ... LOL!

Wes

On Jan 6, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Jon Wennerberg wrote:

> On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:15 PM, dan warner wrote:
>
> How heavy can the tank be? Its full of air.
>
> DW
>
>
>
>
>
> Dan, we'd probably have to ask Mayf to tell us how heavy the tank
> might be when full of air.  I expect the heaviness of the tank due to
> the air is a function of the time of day when the tank was filled,
> and also maybe the altitude above average terrain of the filling
> station.  Then factor in the distant relative humidity and the
> specific gravity of the situation -- well, let's leave it to Mayf.
> Have a nice day.
>
>                 Jon Wennerberg
> Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
>              Marquette, Michigan
>              (that's 'way up north)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 16:59:38 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:59:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars
Message-ID: <675625.20306.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Are Mayf and I the only ones working on our cars in the off-season?  Nobody is saying much this year.  I changed from a 4150 Holley to a Quickfuel Dominator and had no idea it would domino so many changes.  After making new linkage and routing new fuel lines, I find that I have to change the hood scoop.  Since I will no longer have the luxury of a built-in air pan on the carburetor that the Trans Am shaker provided, I've spent the last week cutting pieces of aluminum and riveting them together to make what amounts to an oversize paint roller pan with a hole in the middle.  
   
  So that brings a question to mind.  I've settled on using a Pro-Stock aero scoop with enough height to put the top of the scoop ten inches above the mouth of the carburetor.  So, why do LSR racers tend to put the scoop openings facing rear on door slammers? I understand that there's a big low pressure area behind the scoop and in front of the windshield, but what's so great about that.  Why not take advantage of the high pressure built up in the scoop by facing it forward?  Two hundred MPH formula one cars face forward.  Drag boats face forward.  Off-shore racers face forward.  Three hundred MPH drag cars face forward.  But, LSR cars face them backwards?  What's up here?
   
  DickJ
  In East Texas

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From dwarner230 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 17:01:02 2008
From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:01:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally cancelled
In-Reply-To: <cec.25b1378d.34b2b37a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6770.27994.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

This one is obvious.
   
  Last years NASCAR races looking for a different outcome. They want 24 to win and maybe get 8 into the chase.
   
  DW

BWANA343 at aol.com wrote:
  In a message dated 1/6/2008 3:30:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ed at vetteracing.com writes:

Prolly re-runs of LAST year's Barret-Jackson rip-off........



Or "Pinks," Speedvision's answer to Dancing with the stars or American Idol. 
Newton Minnow, the FCC guy who said TV was a "vast wasteland," would be 
amazed to see how far network AND cable have sunk.
I think there's room for live LSR from all the venues. But then we get 
"discovered" and there'll be LSR of Champions. LSR Celebrity challenge, maybe even 
a LSR award show that only minorities win? Ooops,that was uncalled for, 
racist,prejudicial, and un-PC. But I think funny, so there. 
Bob, ready for LSR Jeopardy,W



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed


       
---------------------------------
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From ed at vetteracing.com  Sun Jan  6 17:31:05 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:31:05 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally cancelled
Message-ID: <W65804863468381199665865@webmail15>

Heck, just throw more "debris" cautions.............
Ed

This one is obvious.

Last years NASCAR races looking for a different outcome. They want 24 to win and maybe get 8 into the chase.

DW

BWANA343 at aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/6/2008 3:30:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ed at vetteracing.com writes:

Prolly re-runs of LAST year's Barret-Jackson rip-off........



Or "Pinks," Speedvision's answer to Dancing with the stars or American Idol. 
Newton Minnow, the FCC guy who said TV was a "vast wasteland," would be 
amazed to see how far network AND cable have sunk.
I think there's room for live LSR from all the venues. But then we get 
"discovered" and there'll be LSR of Champions. LSR Celebrity challenge, maybe even 
a LSR award show that only minorities win? Ooops,that was uncalled for, 
racist,prejudicial, and un-PC. But I think funny, so there. 
Bob, ready for LSR Jeopardy,W



oking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sun Jan  6 17:54:02 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:54:02 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars
In-Reply-To: <675625.20306.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <675625.20306.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4781782A.6080202@mayfco.com>

Dick, there is a high pressure area at thebase of the windshield,not a 
lowpressure area. That helps to force the air into the plenum. BUt, 
scoops add drag so you have to make sure that the one you select has 
enough pressure recovcery to make up the hp loss fromthe added drag. 
Harwood comes to mind. If you can seal the back end to the windshield 
then you will cut some of the added drag. 

mayf
Dick J wrote:

>Are Mayf and I the only ones working on our cars in the off-season?  Nobody is saying much this year.  I changed from a 4150 Holley to a Quickfuel Dominator and had no idea it would domino so many changes.  After making new linkage and routing new fuel lines, I find that I have to change the hood scoop.  Since I will no longer have the luxury of a built-in air pan on the carburetor that the Trans Am shaker provided, I've spent the last week cutting pieces of aluminum and riveting them together to make what amounts to an oversize paint roller pan with a hole in the middle.  
>   
>  So that brings a question to mind.  I've settled on using a Pro-Stock aero scoop with enough height to put the top of the scoop ten inches above the mouth of the carburetor.  So, why do LSR racers tend to put the scoop openings facing rear on door slammers? I understand that there's a big low pressure area behind the scoop and in front of the windshield, but what's so great about that.  Why not take advantage of the high pressure built up in the scoop by facing it forward?  Two hundred MPH formula one cars face forward.  Drag boats face forward.  Off-shore racers face forward.  Three hundred MPH drag cars face forward.  But, LSR cars face them backwards?  What's up here?
>   
>  DickJ
>  In East Texas
>
>       
>---------------------------------
>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From bernien2 at swbell.net  Sun Jan  6 18:36:14 2008
From: bernien2 at swbell.net (bernie brown)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:36:14 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Dakar Rally cancelled
References: <cec.25b1378d.34b2b37a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c850cd$b1283860$4101a8c0@CPPresario>

Bob, I got an e mail that said "being politically correct is like trying to 
pick up a turd by the clean end."
  Bernie

> a LSR award show that only minorities win? Ooops,that was uncalled for,
> racist,prejudicial, and un-PC. Bob, ready for LSR Jeopardy,W

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 22:18:42 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:18:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars
Message-ID: <291103.59290.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The only ones?  Nope, the rest of us just aren't flapping our jaws so much about it.  :)

I'm slowly making progress on mine (it will barely qualify as a race car, I'm building an I/GC that probably won't top 130mph), but there's not much to report yet.  I'm just starting on the engine swap and I gotta work on the honey-do list while I'm at it.

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: Dick J <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
To: lsr list autox <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2008 3:59:38 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars

Are Mayf and I the only ones working on our cars in the off-season?   Nobody is saying much this year.  I changed from a 4150 Holley to a Quickfuel Dominator and had no idea it would domino so many changes.  After making new linkage and routing new fuel lines, I find that I have to change the hood scoop.  Since I will no longer have the luxury of a built-in air pan on the carburetor that the Trans Am shaker provided, I've spent the last week cutting pieces of aluminum and riveting them together to make what amounts to an oversize paint roller pan with a hole in the middle.  
  
 DickJ
In East Texas


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 23:06:15 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:06:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] I/Gas Coupe
In-Reply-To: <291103.59290.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <412461.84542.qm@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Mike, what kind of car are you building.  What engine are you swapping in.  This is the kind of stuff we all like to hear about.
   
  DickJ

Mike Lackey <mike_lackey at yahoo.com> wrote:
  The only ones? Nope, the rest of us just aren't flapping our jaws so much about it. :)

I'm slowly making progress on mine (it will barely qualify as a race car, I'm building an I/GC that probably won't top 130mph), but there's not much to report yet. I'm just starting on the engine swap and I gotta work on the honey-do list while I'm at it.

Mike
       
---------------------------------
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From ecpurinton at wildblue.net  Mon Jan  7 06:04:57 2008
From: ecpurinton at wildblue.net (Ed Purinton)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:04:57 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Non- LSR Air Starter
Message-ID: <47822379.4080506@wildblue.net>

     The 10 cyl OP Fairbanks-Morse main engines we had on the ship had 
air starters, air distributer on the front to the individual cyls.  To 
reverse, shut the eng down, control lever shifted the distributer,  and 
restart the eng in reverse rotation.  2 mains on a shaft [2 shafts], 
engaged to the reduction gears with air activated  clutches, neither, 
either, or both could be "on line" on a shaft for power.  Each shaft 
also had an air activated brake.

     4 in line GM generators also had air start.  If the 2 smaller 3cyls 
happened to shut down in the right position the air would just blow 
through the open ports and valves, was a battery back up, one in our eng 
room never reliable, we would just jack it over by hand a touch and hit 
the air again.

     Some of the details are getting a little fuzzy without researching 
the archives to refresh my memory, been 40 years 
now..........................

     Had hydraulic starters on the GM/Detroit and Cummins powered 44 
footers, 1500-3000 psi operating  range [might get lucky and get a start 
at 1200].  Believe the accumulator bottles were charged with nitrogen. 
Didn't take many start attempts to use up the stored pressure then it 
was use the back up hand pump to get it back [first 1000 was easy, after 
that became a pain in the arms/back  FAST].  Only one of the 2 engs had 
a pump to recharge the system, always started that one first.

     Really question how an automobile could have enough  storage 
capacity to have much range on compressed air alone, then again, still 
find I can learn something everyday................

                         Ed

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Mon Jan  7 06:10:41 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 06:10:41 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] See what you have to look forward to?
Message-ID: <602D34A9-2B3C-4F8C-9C09-17F135C6C28A@comcast.net>

Canada, Australia, who is next to make it tough on going fast?

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0425865020080104?feedType=nl&feedName=usmorningdigest&pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

From adin at frontier.net  Mon Jan  7 08:01:33 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (adin at frontier.net)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:01:33 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars
In-Reply-To: <291103.59290.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <291103.59290.qm@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080107080133.kzjt2mpsg0w4wsw4@webmail.brainstorminternet.net>

Currently, no electricy or phone (snow storm) and, since I sold my
Toyota pickup to fund fun & games on the salt, barely able to get
around town (these cruel bastards still expect me to work - go figure).

I am thinking and dog-earing catologs at an alarming pace.

best to all!

David in Durango







Quoting Mike Lackey <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>:

> The only ones?  Nope, the rest of us just aren't flapping our jaws
> so much about it.  :)
>
> I'm slowly making progress on mine (it will barely qualify as a race
>  car, I'm building an I/GC that probably won't top 130mph), but
> there's not much to report yet.  I'm just starting on the engine
> swap and I gotta work on the honey-do list while I'm at it.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dick J <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
> To: lsr list autox <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2008 3:59:38 PM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars
>
> Are Mayf and I the only ones working on our cars in the off-season?
>   Nobody is saying much this year.  I changed from a 4150 Holley to
> a  Quickfuel Dominator and had no idea it would domino so many
> changes.   After making new linkage and routing new fuel lines, I
> find that I  have to change the hood scoop.  Since I will no longer
> have the  luxury of a built-in air pan on the carburetor that the
> Trans Am  shaker provided, I've spent the last week cutting pieces
> of aluminum  and riveting them together to make what amounts to an
> oversize paint  roller pan with a hole in the middle.
>
>  DickJ
> In East Texas
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________________
_______
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Mon Jan  7 08:18:18 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:18:18 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
In-Reply-To: <W909845712150221199591442@webmail22>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D168DF@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

I propose the Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle "club" - hat color might be a
sunflower yellow or perhaps a Calypso Coral?  Limited to the senior
types who can't get out of their own way (non record setters) who like
the salt.

Waivers available for anyone w/ a hot rod/race car/tool box or know
anyone w/ same.

Cheers,

David, snowed in (almost) in zip code EIEIO

-----Original Message-----


Happy birthday Mayf! 66 is not old..... If you aresea turtle ;-)
Congrats on
the Sunbeam invites. You can still hitthat 200 mark by the Big Bear bash
if ya
bring it out to El Mirage inMay! Heck, it's just dirt & it washes off
(usually) And wheredid Cathy get such an exotic gift?? I bet we all
could put
a booktogether of the best 100 internal engine explosions........
Ed
(raining here too)

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  7 08:32:55 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:32:55 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle "club"
In-Reply-To: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D168DF@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
References: <W909845712150221199591442@webmail22>
	<DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D168DF@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W324408A975822CCD62671ED94F0@phx.gbl>

   I like it !       Count me in !   -especially if the hats are "coral"  !



cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"  in exile in So. New York,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------

> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:18:18 -0700
> From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org
> To: ed at vetteracing.com; jdincau at qnet.com; drmayf at mayfco.com;
land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
>
> I propose the Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle "club" - hat color might be a
> sunflower yellow or perhaps a Calypso Coral?  Limited to the senior
> types who can't get out of their own way (non record setters) who like
> the salt.
>
> Waivers available for anyone w/ a hot rod/race car/tool box or know
> anyone w/ same.
>
> Cheers,
>
> David, snowed in (almost) in zip code EIEIO
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Happy birthday Mayf! 66 is not old..... If you aresea turtle ;-)
> Congrats on
> the Sunbeam invites. You can still hitthat 200 mark by the Big Bear bash
> if ya
> bring it out to El Mirage inMay! Heck, it's just dirt & it washes off
> (usually) And wheredid Cathy get such an exotic gift?? I bet we all
> could put
> a booktogether of the best 100 internal engine explosions........
> Ed
> (raining here too)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

_________________________________________________________________
Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista. + Windows Live.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008

From saltracer at awwwsome.com  Mon Jan  7 08:36:54 2008
From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:36:54 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars
References: <675625.20306.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47824716.00000D.00876@D3DP98F1>

Dick,

I have lots to do...updates and maintenance, but as usual I am
procrastinating! I will get started this month tearing it apart and then
probably  get it back together just short of the May El Mirage Meet. I don't
work well unless I am under time restraints. Maybe that is why I have been
so unprepared of late.

Happy Birthday, Mayf..Sixty-six sounds so young...I will celebrate my 78th
birthday the end of February. My energy may be waning, but not my enthusiasm
 There are still goals to reach so I guess the work must begin!

Tom, Redding CA - #216 D/FCC

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of winter_snow_grey_cat.gif]

From ecpurinton at wildblue.net  Mon Jan  7 08:42:36 2008
From: ecpurinton at wildblue.net (Ed Purinton)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:42:36 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle Club
Message-ID: <4782486C.6000803@wildblue.net>

      I like the idea!   No preference on the color long as the hat is 
big enough to go around my big wannabe ego..........

                           Ed

From Jimwprice at aol.com  Mon Jan  7 08:45:27 2008
From: Jimwprice at aol.com (Jimwprice at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:45:27 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Working on Race Cars
Message-ID: <c09.2bf13def.34b3a317@aol.com>

I am as busy as the season and weather allows.  I am readying my 82 SR  10 
CMMP for running the Maxton season despite a 2000 mile trip versus 375 to  
Wendover.  I will leave it at Randy Paschal's garage in nearby Sanford and  fly out 
for the races.  I am now busy installing a Turbo 400 with a  converter in 
place of the converter less Powerglide.  I am in the drive  shaft confusion stage 
now.



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 08:50:05 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:50:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] I/Gas Coupe
Message-ID: <803068.56982.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've posted a little bit about it before, but not a whole lot.

The car is a RWD '86 Toyota Corolla.  I've had the idea in my head that a motorcycle engine would work well in a small car after seeing some Legends cars at my dad's track many years ago.  So, I'm just starting to put in a 2001 Yamaha R1 engine.  I'm starting with the engine swap and once I have determined that it will work like I expect it to, I will start the long road of meeting all the safety rules.

I'm on a pretty tight budget, but I think I'll be able to manage just fine.  The earliest I could have it ready would be 2009, and that's what I'm aiming at for right now.

Mike


----- Original Message ----
From: Dick J <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
To: Mike Lackey <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>; lsr list autox <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2008 10:06:15 PM
Subject: I/Gas Coupe


Mike, what kind of car are you building.  What engine are you swapping in.  This is the kind of stuff we all like to hear about.
 
DickJ

Mike Lackey <mike_lackey at yahoo.com> wrote:
The only ones? Nope, the rest of us just aren't flapping our jaws so much about it. :)

I'm slowly making progress on mine (it will barely qualify as a race car, I'm building an I/GC that probably won't top 130mph), but there's not much to report yet. I'm just starting on the engine swap and I gotta work on the honey-do list while I'm at it.

Mike


Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Mon Jan  7 09:00:58 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:00:58 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle Club
In-Reply-To: <4782486C.6000803@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D168E2@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

I wanna have an ego, too!  And will, should I ever get out of my own
way!


David, LS pickup someday

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Ed Purinton
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:43 AM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle Club

      I like the idea!   No preference on the color long as the hat is
big enough to go around my big wannabe ego..........

                           Ed
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ecpurinton at wildblue.net  Mon Jan  7 09:25:54 2008
From: ecpurinton at wildblue.net (Ed Purinton)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:25:54 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Strength Question
Message-ID: <47825292.7010904@wildblue.net>

Bob,

     Every comparison is relative, in the M/C world 4's are considered a 
lot smoother than the singles and twins [ya, I know the "Global" types 
are hiding counter balancers and vibration dampeners  in everything now 
to keep us guessing].  Odd as it sounds  the '69-''75 BSA/Triumph  
triples  run smooth  for back in the day stuff.

     Hair driers gave the Offy's a second wind and kept them competitive 
at Indy until even newer tech finally prevailed.  Took the Chevy V-8 to 
overtake them in sprints and some pretty high strung alternatives to do 
it in midgets.  One of the all time great motors in my book.

     Sometimes a little flex can be a good thing, helps prevent cracks 
and breakage as a result of everything being too ridged.

     Time to stop cutting bait and go fishing.  As is or welded, RUN 
it!  Just keep an eye on things, thats what the wait in staging between 
runs is for, worst case if you spot something  you just pull out of line 
for the  fix.

                                Ed

From ed at vetteracing.com  Mon Jan  7 09:50:37 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:50:37 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] See what you have to look forward to?
Message-ID: <W245511785735771199724637@webmail24>

They're cracking down on geezers everywhere! Look out guys!! 
Ed

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Wester Potter [mailto:wester6935 at comcast.net]
>Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 06:10 AM
>To: 'Larry Mayfield', 'Glen Barrett', 'LAND SPEED LIST'
>Subject: [Land-speed] See what you have to look forward to?
>
>Canada, Australia, who is next to make it tough on going fast?
>
>http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0425865020080104?feedType=nl&feedName=usmorningdigest&pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as ed at vetteracing.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Mon Jan  7 10:29:53 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:29:53 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle Club
Message-ID: <18856082.1199726993586.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

As long as my 2 club hat will fi over it and the minimum age is 64, I can see it working...Wait a minute...I hold a record...csncel that.........JD

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Adin, David" <DavidAdin at mercydurango.org>
>Sent: Jan 7, 2008 8:00 AM
>To: ecpurinton at wildblue.net, land-speed at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle Club
>
>I wanna have an ego, too!  And will, should I ever get out of my own
>way!
>
>
>David, LS pickup someday
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net
>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On
>Behalf Of Ed Purinton
>Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:43 AM
>To: land-speed at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle Club
>
>      I like the idea!   No preference on the color long as the hat is
>big enough to go around my big wannabe ego..........
>
>                           Ed
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as gmc6power at earthlink.net
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Mon Jan  7 10:35:45 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:35:45 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms
Message-ID: <28330328.1199727345461.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Everything went as planned and expected. Call at 7AM placed on hold, lost connection on speaker phone after 30 minutes. Back on hold lost on speaker phone at 2 minutes. Back on hold for 45 minutes no speaker phone this time and a committed to a room at the Rainbow on the 17th..Cool...Need to change rooms on Friday for the next weekend but that's no problem.....Good luck

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  7 11:05:36 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:05:36 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Strength Question
In-Reply-To: <47825292.7010904@wildblue.net>
References: <47825292.7010904@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W591A7DCA900A96DEE067DD94F0@phx.gbl>

  Bob;  ED's right on ALL counts:  GO for it! Better to run and break,... than
to say that you were never ready, later....


  cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"
in exile in So. New York,

==================================================================

> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:25:54 -0500
> From: ecpurinton at wildblue.net
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Strength Question
>
> Bob,
>
>      Every comparison is relative, in the M/C world 4's are considered a
> lot smoother than the singles and twins [ya, I know the "Global" types
> are hiding counter balancers and vibration dampeners  in everything now
> to keep us guessing].  Odd as it sounds  the '69-''75 BSA/Triumph
> triples  run smooth  for back in the day stuff.
>
>      Hair driers gave the Offy's a second wind and kept them competitive
> at Indy until even newer tech finally prevailed.  Took the Chevy V-8 to
> overtake them in sprints and some pretty high strung alternatives to do
> it in midgets.  One of the all time great motors in my book.
>
>      Sometimes a little flex can be a good thing, helps prevent cracks
> and breakage as a result of everything being too ridged.
>
>      Time to stop cutting bait and go fishing.  As is or welded, RUN
> it!  Just keep an eye on things, thats what the wait in staging between
> runs is for, worst case if you spot something  you just pull out of line
> for the  fix.


 Ed


_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Jan  7 11:10:32 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:10:32 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
Message-ID: <47826B18.7040703@mayfco.com>

Been trying since 8 am this morning to get reservations at the Rainbow. 
Busy on all lines since then, lol... I may be too late already lol..

mayf

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Jan  7 11:13:18 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:13:18 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] My Sunbeam Tiger, Sorta Kinda LSR.
In-Reply-To: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D168DF@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
References: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D168DF@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
Message-ID: <47826BBE.60707@mayfco.com>

Yup, that pretty much fits me..." can't get out of their own 
way"..."senior types"  
yeah, it fits..

mayf
Adin, David wrote:

>I propose the Lake Bonneville Sea Turtle "club" - hat color might be a
>sunflower yellow or perhaps a Calypso Coral?  Limited to the senior
>types who can't get out of their own way (non record setters) who like
>the salt.
>
>Waivers available for anyone w/ a hot rod/race car/tool box or know
>anyone w/ same.
>
>Cheers,
>
>David, snowed in (almost) in zip code EIEIO
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>
>Happy birthday Mayf! 66 is not old..... If you aresea turtle ;-)
>Congrats on
>the Sunbeam invites. You can still hitthat 200 mark by the Big Bear bash
>if ya
>bring it out to El Mirage inMay! Heck, it's just dirt & it washes off
>(usually) And wheredid Cathy get such an exotic gift?? I bet we all
>could put
>a booktogether of the best 100 internal engine explosions........
>Ed
>(raining here too)

From yesford at clear.net.nz  Mon Jan  7 11:15:35 2008
From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris R Harris)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:15:35 +1300
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
References: <47826B18.7040703@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c85159$51132ed0$d96a65da@Wendover>

I tried for 2 1/2 hours on International toll call to get rooms for crew................no joy.
Whets the # for 'Bend in the Road'.

Chris H.............NZed.

Been trying since 8 am this morning to get reservations at the Rainbow. 
Busy on all lines since then, lol... I may be too late already lol..

mayf

From ed at vetteracing.com  Mon Jan  7 11:13:12 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:13:12 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
Message-ID: <W295294341235531199729592@webmail34>

I was on hold for an hour, but I got thru (whew!)

Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


>-----Original Message-----
>From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
>Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 11:10 AM
>To: 'LSR'
>Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
>
>Been trying since 8 am this morning to get reservations at the Rainbow. 
>Busy on all lines since then, lol... I may be too late already lol..
>
>mayf

From neil at dbelltech.com  Mon Jan  7 11:56:00 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:56:00 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] See what you have to look forward to?
In-Reply-To: <602D34A9-2B3C-4F8C-9C09-17F135C6C28A@comcast.net>
References: <602D34A9-2B3C-4F8C-9C09-17F135C6C28A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <005401c8515e$f2369c20$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Wes;

 

"The man was pulled over after allegedly driving 161 kilometers per hour
(100 mph) this week on a main highway north of Toronto, where the speed
limit is 100 km/h, Ontario Provincial Police said."

 

Obviously he had mph and km/h confused......

 

 

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

 

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Wester Potter
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:11 AM
To: Larry Mayfield; Glen Barrett; LAND SPEED LIST
Subject: [Land-speed] See what you have to look forward to?

 

Canada, Australia, who is next to make it tough on going fast?

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0425865020080104?feedTyp
e=nl&feedName=usmorningdigest&pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

_______________________________________________

From ecpurinton at wildblue.net  Mon Jan  7 12:09:51 2008
From: ecpurinton at wildblue.net (Ed Purinton)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:09:51 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
Message-ID: <478278FF.6090304@wildblue.net>

John,

     Hooligan Navy [Hotel-56] '64-'68, on the 311' good cutter Barataria 
W381 [ex-WW11 Navy seaplane tender] in B-2 eng room, CG Squadron 3 
Operation Market Time '67.  Portland ME to Alameda CA by way of the 
South China Sea, trip of a lifetime. 

     Good power, they really ran nice on JP-4, a lot less carbon build 
up in the exhaust ports to clean out.  Some of the WW11 subs had the 
same power, set up like the Wind Class ice breakers, diesel-electric.  
Didn't work out as well for locomotive use later, too many speed changes 
was hard on the vertical driveshaft between the 2 cranks.

                                 Ed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Jan  7 12:10:19 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:10:19 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
In-Reply-To: <W295294341235531199729592@webmail34>
References: <W295294341235531199729592@webmail34>
Message-ID: <4782791B.4060104@mayfco.com>

I would gladly hold for an hour...all I get is a busy signal  on both 
lines. What phone number(s) did you folk use?

mayf
Ed Van Scoy wrote:

> I was on hold for an hour, but I got thru  (whew!)
>
> Ed Van Scoy
> #128 B/GT Corvette
> SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
> >Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 11:10 AM
> >To: 'LSR'
> >Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
> >
> >Been trying since 8 am this morning to get reservations at the Rainbow.
> >Busy on all lines since then, lol... I may be too late already lol..
> >
> >mayf

From jdincau at qnet.com  Mon Jan  7 12:40:32 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:40:32 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
References: <W295294341235531199729592@webmail34> <4782791B.4060104@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000901c85165$2bfdf6f0$0500000a@Den>

     The 1-800-537-0207. Seven redials finally got me on hold for one and a 
half hours, only suites left, booked 3, outrageous price, now to get seven 
people into three beds. Yes the suites only have one king size bed, I guess 
one could sleep in the Jacuzzi.
     It is still better than four guys in the back of a pickup. In 1962, the 
guys were a lot younger and slimmer though.
Jim in Palmdale where it snowed a whole one half inch last night



>I would gladly hold for an hour...all I get is a busy signal  on both
> lines. What phone number(s) did you folk use?
>
> mayf

> Ed Van Scoy wrote:
>
>> I was on hold for an hour, but I got thru  (whew!)
>>
>> Ed Van Scoy
>> #128 B/GT Corvette
>> SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 12:56:49 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:56:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Seniors
In-Reply-To: <47826BBE.60707@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <281543.37956.qm@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A few weeks ago I went to rent a car at the airport and because of my "advanced age" (over 65), I'm barred from renting anything with a turbo or V-8!  Pencil pushers have determined that I'm not capable of handling all that horsepower and speed!
   
  DickJ

drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com> wrote:
  Yup, that pretty much fits me..." can't get out of their own 
way"..."senior types" 
yeah, it fits..

mayf
       
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

From RACE427 at aol.com  Mon Jan  7 12:58:27 2008
From: RACE427 at aol.com (RACE427 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:58:27 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorcycle Lift Table ? -non LSR
Message-ID: <c9c.1dd322a8.34b3de63@aol.com>

Curious as to which Motorcycle Lift any on you might be using  to work on 
your bikes.  Not looking for the cheap Chinese small lifts you  see practically 
everywhere you shop these days.  Interested in a lift which  can raise the bike 
up to about 36-48 inches.  Any names of dealers on the  east coast will be 
greatly appreciated.  Used ones available will also be  considered.
 
   Hope I did not break any rules with this  post?   Thanks for your help !!
 
     Tony Greco    LI,NY



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Jan  7 13:17:41 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:17:41 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Seniors
In-Reply-To: <281543.37956.qm@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <281543.37956.qm@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <478288E5.80905@mayfco.com>

Ok, so I will have my SCTA Lic. laminated and show that to them when 
they tell me that, lol...

mayf
Dick J wrote:

> A few weeks ago I went to rent a car at the airport and because of my 
> "advanced age" (over 65), I'm barred from renting anything with a 
> turbo or V-8!  Pencil pushers have determined that I'm not capable of 
> handling all that horsepower and speed!
>  
> DickJ
>
> */drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Yup, that pretty much fits me..." can't get out of their own
>     way"..."senior types"
>     yeah, it fits..
>
>     mayf
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! 
> Search. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping> 

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Jan  7 14:40:37 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:40:37 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Non-LSR Air Starter
In-Reply-To: <F5C2D2A4-3CA5-4336-9A81-0FC21BC99692@infodestruction.com>
References: <BAY105-DAV789C9CAE85AC9F985E01DAF4E0@phx.gbl>
	<F5C2D2A4-3CA5-4336-9A81-0FC21BC99692@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <506CCBCCB04640D0B3062928378546AE@LMS>

I like some of the old radials---used a 10 guage shot gun blank.
      Sparky 
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA
> 
> See why I like this list?  I learn stuff.  Thanks, Jim.

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 14:51:48 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:51:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorcycle Lift Table ? -non LSR
In-Reply-To: <c9c.1dd322a8.34b3de63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <427694.68219.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tony,
   
  The neatest setup I've ever seen was not hydraoulic or mechanical, it was a simple balance rig similar to what used car dealerships use to put thier cars up on display.  When there is no vehicle on it, it looks like an incline ramp.  As a vehicle is placed on it and moved forward, the center of gravity moves past the balance fulcrum, and the rig tilts forward.  I liked the ones I saw so much that I built three of them for my shop back when I was in the business.  
   
  If you're interested, but unsure of what I mean, drop me a note off line and I'll try to send you a drawing.
   
  DickJ
  In East Texas


  Curious as to which Motorcycle Lift any on you might be using to work on 
your bikes. Not looking for the cheap Chinese small lifts you see practically 
everywhere you shop these days. Interested in a lift which can raise the bike 
up to about 36-48 inches. Any names of dealers on the east coast will be 
greatly appreciated. Used ones available will also be considered.

Hope I did not break any rules with this post? Thanks for your help !!

Tony Greco LI,NY

       
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Jan  7 15:09:09 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:09:09 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Hood Scoops and Working on Race Cars
In-Reply-To: <675625.20306.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <675625.20306.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <356D82A3E90A4CFB992586004BEAA6AF@LMS>

Dick, Not ALL, I forget the windshield slope angle at which the high 
pressure goes away  but I am sure it still works on your "Smokey" car.
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA
----- Original Message -----  

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 15:51:05 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] El Mirage
Message-ID: <844326.95530.qm@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've been thinking about running at El Mirage.  I've heard that you have to be a member of an SCTA member-club to run, but when I look at the SCTA site, it says you have to be a member of a club to run for points or set records.  What if I only want to run just to know I've done it in my life-time?  I won't be setting any records, and I wouldn't earn enough points for anybody to care about.  Do I have to be both an SCTA member and a club member just to make a run?
   
  Will they even let Texans run there?  LoL
   
  DickJ
  In East Texas

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From kturk at ala.net  Mon Jan  7 16:49:43 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:49:43 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] El Mirage
References: <844326.95530.qm@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002901c85187$fc47d520$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

El Mirage is a Poo Poo hole.... and I'll never race there until next time...

Keith

From Bobbyhotrods at comcast.net  Mon Jan  7 17:30:21 2008
From: Bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (Bobbyhotrods at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:30:21 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms
Message-ID: <010820080030.3739.4782C41C000F240A00000E9B22007613949C0B019D9B0108970D0D01BD@comcast.net>

My "bunkie" Tom Shea (#880) called every hotel except Days Inn without success. Western Ridge will take rezzies in April.
 Me, I called the Peppermill a bunch of times without getting thru....sigh.
This Bonneville stuff isn't for those who aren't strong willed, that's for sure.

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Mon Jan  7 17:37:47 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:37:47 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] El Mirage
References: <844326.95530.qm@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002701c8518e$b1737980$6401a8c0@Glens>

They have a guest entry plan and I don't recall the cost. It also limits you 
to one meet. You might find it under the scta web sit the El Mirage 
procedures section.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
To: "lsr list autox" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 3:51 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] El Mirage


> I've been thinking about running at El Mirage.  I've heard that you have 
> to be a member of an SCTA member-club to run, but when I look at the SCTA 
> site, it says you have to be a member of a club to run for points or set 
> records.  What if I only want to run just to know I've done it in my 
> life-time?  I won't be setting any records, and I wouldn't earn enough 
> points for anybody to care about.  Do I have to be both an SCTA member and 
> a club member just to make a run?
>
>  Will they even let Texans run there?  LoL
>
>  DickJ
>  In East Texas
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it 
> now.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltfevr at q.com  Mon Jan  7 20:53:48 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (TOM M SHANNON)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:53:48 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
In-Reply-To: <47826B18.7040703@mayfco.com>
References: <47826B18.7040703@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <BAY122-W20A74C910F8E5705952B76C9480@phx.gbl>

Mayf;

Started calling with the Calvary at 8A Mtn time. Didn't have the luxury of
speaker phone and 60 min  hold times. As driving bus kinda got in the way.
Finally got a "real" person 9 1/2 hrs. later at 5:30Pm. Of course, all sold
out. Congrats to those who "won the lottery".Tom ShannonMagna, Utah> Date:
Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:10:32 -0800> From: drmayf at mayfco.com> To:
land-speed at autox.team.net> Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...> > Been trying since
8 am this morning to get reservations at the Rainbow. > Busy on all lines
since then, lol... I may be too late already lol..> > mayf>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are
subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Jan  7 21:10:10 2008
From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:10:10 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] getting ready
Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB209D6B37C@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>

Well, the block is in the shop to repair the damage from world finals,
toasted the #3, going +040 over on the Mitsubishi block (last bore).
ordering the head restraint pads for the seat to comply with the new
rules, sending the fire suit to Simpson for re-qualification for SFI
Spec's,   Got busted at World Finals on Window Film,  you know, the
CARQUEST in Wendover needs  some props, they really have come thru every
time I've had a need for a part. Mayf  if hear you on the custom pipe
welding, there is no end to making the pipes fit. Rooms at Wendover? ask
for a roll-away be in the suites, the couches should be hide-a- beds,
otherwise, sleeping bags, and rotate into the beds, mechanics get
preference, Drivers can sleep in the afternoons while the wrenches put
it back together......

Mike Meierle
#847 F/P/MP
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
ECTA Record Holder

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of Mike Meierle.vcf]

From Rick at RBMotorsports.com  Mon Jan  7 21:13:13 2008
From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:13:13 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms
References: <010820080030.3739.4782C41C000F240A00000E9B22007613949C0B019D9B0108970D0D01BD@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000701c851ac$cb6619b0$6501a8c0@Rick>

OK Bunkie oops I mean Bobby.

You keep trying.  The big three will open up rooms later, as they just 
released 600 out of over 2000.
Keep calling....every day if necessary.....

NOW
As to bangers shaking themselves apart.
The Offy that your motor guy is referring to is the old 255 cu in banger 
that had terrible secondary order shaking forces that are primarily 
generated by reciprocating weight.  Big bore, long stroke, relatively heavy 
pistons, revving to 8 or 7 k RPM etc etc...
Your little 2.3 engine has the same tendency, but to a much lesser degree. 
Even with heavier pistons for turbo application, the smaller bore helps. 
Don't worry.  The Esslingers have run 3 litre Pinto based motors over 10,000 
rpm with good reliability and durability.  Granted, after each race 
everything needs to be checked, especially with solid motor mounts, but it 
is not disastrous.  Worry about other things.
and tell your motor guy that I'll take a 180 Offy any day of the week....
(without paying that is  :=D   )

However, mounting anything to the cylinder head other than the block, can 
cause head gasket issues.  (Micro movement due to loads from the mounted 
part.)  For a while I had a little to do with a new design intent head 
gasket for the 3.8 L pushrod engine mounted in front wheel drive Lincoln. 
this was early 90's.  The motor mount was mounted to the head and caused all 
kinds of problems, particularly that the gasket was a graphoil material 
which promotes movement in all directions.
(That was a case of the chassis engineer farkeling the engine guys.)
The partial fix ultimately was a multi layer steel head gasket that 
effectively made a metal to metal contact with little relative movement.  I 
don't know if it went into production because I caused myself to be 
reassigned to a much brighter assignment.  (that one was doomed, and anyone 
that worked on it was headed right into the depths of corporate hell.))  It 
pissed off my manager but what the heck.

So, I wouldn't mount the charge cooler to the head.

Good luck

Rick

From landspeed at columbus.rr.com  Mon Jan  7 22:12:28 2008
From: landspeed at columbus.rr.com (Don McMeekin)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:12:28 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...
In-Reply-To: <BAY122-W20A74C910F8E5705952B76C9480@phx.gbl>
References: <47826B18.7040703@mayfco.com>
	<BAY122-W20A74C910F8E5705952B76C9480@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7EC7533D-1812-4970-9880-7203A215C590@columbus.rr.com>

Tom,
      We've never had much trouble getting rooms at Wendover, that is  
until this year. Went through all of the stuff that everyone else has  
mentioned only to find out much later in the afternoon that they were  
not releasing any more rooms at this time. I guess the owners know  
where the money is and who's business to solicit.  Oh well, things  
seem to have a way of working themselves out in the end, so Im not  
discouraged----------yet. Still, Bonneville seems so far away  
(particularly at $3.50 to $4 a gallon) to take too much of a risk so  
we are hopeful that something good will happen in the lodging sector  
before long. Until then we will try to focus on the really important  
issues in life.
      Don


On Jan 7, 2008, at 10:53 PM, TOM M SHANNON wrote:

> Mayf;
>
> Started calling with the Calvary at 8A Mtn time. Didn't have the  
> luxury of
> speaker phone and 60 min  hold times. As driving bus kinda got in  
> the way.
> Finally got a "real" person 9 1/2 hrs. later at 5:30Pm. Of course,  
> all sold
> out. Congrats to those who "won the lottery".Tom ShannonMagna,  
> Utah> Date:
> Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:10:32 -0800> From: drmayf at mayfco.com> To:
> land-speed at autox.team.net> Subject: [Land-speed] Rooms...> > Been  
> trying since
> 8 am this morning to get reservations at the Rainbow. > Busy on all  
> lines
> since then, lol... I may be too late already lol..> > mayf>
> _______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
> http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are
> subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> >
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as landspeed at columbus.rr.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From dlodom at charter.net  Mon Jan  7 22:35:35 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:35:35 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Lake Gairdner 08
Message-ID: <47830BA7.2090806@charter.net>

Any other racers going to Lake Gairdner from the USA this year? Just in 
case after I get over there I need something brought from  here. Shipped 
the motors last week, I'm leaving Feb. 18th.    Doug Odom in big ditch 
where what happens in the shop, stays in the shop.

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Mon Jan  7 22:43:31 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:43:31 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] El Mirage
References: <844326.95530.qm@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<002701c8518e$b1737980$6401a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <005401c851b9$675ce540$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

I believe the cost for a guest is $150.00. You must be be there on Saturday 
for rookie orientation held at the registration trailer for a single day 
meet. For a 2 day meet I believe there are rookie meetings both Friday and 
Saturday. I believe you are required to make a 125 mph first pass from the 
rookie lane. I believe rookies are filtered in thru out the day. You will 
get no more runs than the normal competitor which may be only one. Good Luck 
JD

PS: As with guns all Texas attitudes must me left at their own states border 
prior to entering another state. Californians allow Texans a 2 day pass 2 
times in there lives without harrassment ( well without too much harassment) 
Hey we let Keith T in a couple of times and he can only come in now if he 
brings his bride.


> From: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
> To: "lsr list autox" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 3:51 PM
> Subject: [Land-speed] El Mirage
>
>
>> I've been thinking about running at El Mirage.  I've heard that you have
>> to be a member of an SCTA member-club to run, but when I look at the SCTA
>> site, it says you have to be a member of a club to run for points or set
>> records.  What if I only want to run just to know I've done it in my
>> life-time?  I won't be setting any records, and I wouldn't earn enough
>> points for anybody to care about.  Do I have to be both an SCTA member 
>> and
>> a club member just to make a run?

From kturk at ala.net  Tue Jan  8 01:22:33 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 02:22:33 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorcycle Lift Table ? -non LSR
References: <c9c.1dd322a8.34b3de63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006601c851cf$a2a98d40$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

Tony you find one down here let me know... I'm in need as well... 

Nothing Chinese...

Keith

From jon at infodestruction.com  Tue Jan  8 06:32:37 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:32:37 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorcycle Lift Table ? -non LSR
In-Reply-To: <427694.68219.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <427694.68219.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <84A81527-0731-4541-8EE2-8657541AAB29@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 7, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Dick J wrote:

Tony,

   The neatest setup I've ever seen was not hydraoulic or mechanical,  
it was a simple balance rig similar to what used car dealerships use  
to put thier cars up on display.  When there is no vehicle on it, it  
looks like an incline ramp.  As a vehicle is placed on it and moved  
forward, the center of gravity moves past the balance fulcrum, and  
the rig tilts forward.  I liked the ones I saw so much that I built  
three of them for my shop back when I was in the business.

   If you're interested, but unsure of what I mean, drop me a note  
off line and I'll try to send you a drawing.

   DickJ
   In East Texas





Dick, back a few years ago I worked at a car dealership and now and  
then was the guy that drove the cars onto one of those rigs.  It was  
always a bit scary -- will I go too far and the car will bump the  
front bumper into the steel guards at the end?  Will I stop too soon  
and I'll have to back down and the thing will BUMP back down?  I  
never had any incidents -- but at least of of the other salespeople  
did.  I remember the fun we all had when Dave H. went up the ramp a  
little too hard, too fast -- and off the far end.  I think he'll  
still paying for that damage claim.

So anyway -- putting a bike onto one of those would be a scary  
proposition if you ask me, since the rider wouldn't have anyplace to  
put his feet to balance himself when forward motion stops -- and it'd  
be quite a feat for a pair of bystanders to help steady the bike once  
it stopped moving.  I suppose you could construct the thing with a  
companion pair of stands at the level of the leveled-out rig -- so  
the rider would have someplace for his feet -- and then remove the  
side stands to work on the bike.

Sounds like quite a chore to me.

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From jon at infodestruction.com  Tue Jan  8 06:49:15 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:49:15 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] getting ready
In-Reply-To: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB209D6B37C@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>
References: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB209D6B37C@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>
Message-ID: <EFFF2327-BF41-460E-8F26-854ACF69EC0D@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 7, 2008, at 11:10 PM, MEIERLE Mike wrote:
You know, the CARQUEST in Wendover needs  some props, they really  
have come thru every
time I've had a need for a part.


Mike Meierle
#847 F/P/MP
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
ECTA Record Holder


Mike et al:

At SpeedWeek '07 Mike Crawford, the owner/manager of Carquest of  
Wendover, visited the event for the first time.  He stopped by at  
Salt Talks, he (and some of his buddies) moseyed around the pits, and  
I saw them at the start line, too.  He's teased Nancy and me for a  
couple of years that we should have invited him to Salt Talks -- so  
last year I called him in March to make sure he'd put it on his  
calendar.  By the time SpeedWeek rolled around he not only told us  
he'd be at the event -- he donated some stuff for the raffle at Salt  
Talks.

He builds and plays with Corvettes -- stop by the store and ask him  
(he's easy to find -- about 6'6" tall) to show you his cars.

Yup, he's supporting us by being there -- open 7 days a week during  
SpeedWeek, and long hours, too -- and he's now coming out to the  
races.  Don't avoid his store -- he is being a welcoming business in  
Wendover.

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From john.szalay at att.net  Tue Jan  8 08:08:04 2008
From: john.szalay at att.net (John Szalay)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:08:04 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] $4.5 million Dakar rally costs.   (Non-LSR)
Message-ID: <010820081508.5294.478391D400060882000014AE22230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E040E969CD202080106@att.net>

KT !  

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/nascar/2008-01-07-Dakar-Rally-Gordon_N.htm?csp=34

From ed at vetteracing.com  Tue Jan  8 09:12:46 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:12:46 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] $4.5 million Dakar rally costs.   (Non-LSR)
Message-ID: <W851428134263081199808766@webmail5>

I think Robbie touched on the real reason it wascancelled..... Money. I doubt
the promoters really give a rat'sass about terrorist threats - heck, that just
builds interest (andviewers). I suspect the TV deals over the past couple of
years have notbeen as sweet as all wanted, and this year something
fellthrough. Just my cynical nature showing through.... and notenough
coffee....

Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Szalay [mailto:john.szalay at att.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 08:08 AM
>To: 'landspeed'
>Subject: [Land-speed] $4.5 million Dakar rally costs. (Non-LSR)
>
>KT !
>
>http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/nascar/2008-01-07-Dakar-Rally-Gordon_N.
htm?csp=34

From rbuck at xmission.com  Tue Jan  8 09:42:19 2008
From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:42:19 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] $4.5 million Dakar rally costs.   (Non-LSR)
In-Reply-To: <W851428134263081199808766@webmail5>
References: <W851428134263081199808766@webmail5>
Message-ID: <E1JCHWp-0004Ky-4l@mgr1.xmission.com>

Some folks are suggesting...and some are plainly stating...that the 
real reason for the cancellation was the sanctioning body's insurance 
carrier's cancellation of their policy.  That sorta has a ring of 
plausibility to it.  On the other hand, it could be a convenient excuse.

RtR


At 09:12 AM 1/8/2008, Ed Van Scoy wrote:
>I think Robbie touched on the real reason it wascancelled..... Money. I doubt
>the promoters really give a rat'sass about terrorist threats - heck, that just
>builds interest (andviewers). I suspect the TV deals over the past couple of
>years have notbeen as sweet as all wanted, and this year something
>fellthrough. Just my cynical nature showing through.... and notenough
>coffee....
>
>Ed Van Scoy
>#128 B/GT Corvette
>SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder

From gearheads at comcast.net  Tue Jan  8 15:10:41 2008
From: gearheads at comcast.net (Steve Hamel)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:10:41 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] (no subject)
Message-ID: <002c01c85243$4eb80b70$6801a8c0@sterlingt3r3aw>


From sardatech at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 16:43:35 2008
From: sardatech at yahoo.com (tom sarda)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:43:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] 383
Message-ID: <195017.18532.qm@web50409.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Anyone run into clearance problems between cam and
connecting rods when building a chevy 383? I have now
and need some input and opinions. The cam is a solid
cam (non-roller) for chevy. The block I have is
originally a oem roller(1988 model). The cam is a
575/590 lift. Thanks,
Tom


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From v4gr at rcn.com  Tue Jan  8 16:49:21 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:49:21 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] 383
References: <195017.18532.qm@web50409.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601c85251$17e680f0$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

I don't but mine is a street engine with stock rods and a comp cams 270H
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tom sarda" <sardatech at yahoo.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 3:43 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] 383


> Anyone run into clearance problems between cam and
> connecting rods when building a chevy 383? I have now
> and need some input and opinions. The cam is a solid
> cam (non-roller) for chevy. The block I have is
> originally a oem roller(1988 model). The cam is a
> 575/590 lift. Thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. 
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as v4gr at rcn.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From neil at dbelltech.com  Tue Jan  8 18:17:22 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:17:22 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 383
In-Reply-To: <195017.18532.qm@web50409.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <195017.18532.qm@web50409.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <013901c8525d$637446e0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Tom;

My "Chevy" 383 does not have clearance problems. I'm using 6" Crower
Sportsman rods but my block is actually a Donovan aluminum block.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
tom sarda
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 4:44 PM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] 383

Anyone run into clearance problems between cam and
connecting rods when building a chevy 383? I have now
and need some input and opinions. The cam is a solid
cam (non-roller) for chevy. The block I have is
originally a oem roller(1988 model). The cam is a
575/590 lift. Thanks,
Tom

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Wed Jan  9 08:49:22 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:49:22 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorcycle Lift Table ? -non LSR
In-Reply-To: <006601c851cf$a2a98d40$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D168EF@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

KT, is this post about lifts or brides????

David, one of each pleeeeezzze.  (Actually, two lifts would be best.)


Tony you find one down here let me know... I'm in need as well...

Nothing Chinese...

Keith
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From dmirror3 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 12:42:34 2008
From: dmirror3 at yahoo.com (Dale Krumheuer)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:42:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorcycle Lift Table ? -non LSR
In-Reply-To: <c9c.1dd322a8.34b3de63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <917028.97424.qm@web58001.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hello Tony, I'm attaching a .gif file that is a construction plan for a tilt table type bike stand. Have built a couple in the past. Not as tall as what you are looking for but cheap and easy. May not be what you are looking for but hey, who knows, maybe it can help. 
Where I used to work, we used the Harbor Freight tables. We converted a HF table into a motorcycle dyno bench. They work fine. I prefer to buy American but when budget won't allow it, we do what we have to. What are you building ? 
Take Care,
Dale Krumheuer
Cleveland Oh

RACE427 at aol.com wrote: Curious as to which Motorcycle Lift any on you might be using  to work on 
your bikes.  Not looking for the cheap Chinese small lifts you  see practically 
everywhere you shop these days.  Interested in a lift which  can raise the bike 
up to about 36-48 inches.  Any names of dealers on the  east coast will be 
greatly appreciated.  Used ones available will also be  considered.
 
   Hope I did not break any rules with this  post?   Thanks for your help !!
 
     Tony Greco    LI,NY



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as dmirror3 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed



God, here and there, makes madness a calling


       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of bikestnd.gif]

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Thu Jan 10 09:08:00 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:08:00 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 day pass for TEXICANS
In-Reply-To: <005401c851b9$675ce540$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>
References: <844326.95530.qm@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com><002701c8518e$b1737980$6401a8c0@Glens>
	<005401c851b9$675ce540$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>
Message-ID: <968E08C902BC4270B32221F6561BB3DB@LMS>

> PS: As with guns all Texas attitudes must me left at their own states 
> border
> prior to entering another state. Californians allow Texans a 2 day pass 2
> times in there lives without harrassment ( well without too much 
> harassment)


Geez---I would never haver "suspected this"---explains some of my 
experiences ---I must have gotten caught violating the "TEXICAN HALLPASS" 
rules-----lol
>

      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA


> PS: As with guns all Texas attitudes must me left at their own states 
> border
> prior to entering another state. Californians allow Texans a 2 day pass 2
> times in there lives without harrassment ( well without too much 
> harassment)

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 15:31:13 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:31:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 day pass for TEXICANS
In-Reply-To: <968E08C902BC4270B32221F6561BB3DB@LMS>
Message-ID: <876796.40233.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Bill,
  You shouldn't wear your gun when racing anyway!  It gets realy uncomfortable when the starter pulles the harness tight.
   
  DickJ

"Sparky.2211" <Sparky.2211 at cox.net> wrote:
  > PS: As with guns all Texas attitudes must me left at their own states 
> border
> prior to entering another state. Californians allow Texans a 2 day pass 2
> times in there lives without harrassment ( well without too much 
> harassment)


Geez---I would never haver "suspected this"---explains some of my 
experiences ---I must have gotten caught violating the "TEXICAN HALLPASS" 
rules-----lol
>

Sparky
AA/_ L 2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Thu Jan 10 20:12:05 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:12:05 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 day pass for TEXICANS
In-Reply-To: <876796.40233.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <876796.40233.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95552FECDA904671A0BA77441EBAF1B6@LMS>

hasn't gotten to that YET---but may!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dick J
  To: Sparky.2211 ; lsr list autox
  Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] 2 day pass for TEXICANS


  Bill,
  You shouldn't wear your gun when racing anyway!  It gets realy uncomfortable
when the starter pulles the harness tight.

  DickJ

From saltfevr at q.com  Fri Jan 11 20:54:37 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (TOM M SHANNON)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:54:37 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] (non lsr) 50 yrs. Fomoso
Message-ID: <BAY122-W9A840406EF47CECC3F4E1C9440@phx.gbl>

http://www.wediditforlove.com/50th_March_Meet.html
Gotta love the 1968 Quals list!! March 7-9, 2008 ,Prolly too late to book
rooms. Should be a Super Cackle Fest this year.(jealous)Tom ShannonMagna,
Utah

From zoombot at cox.net  Fri Jan 11 23:30:45 2008
From: zoombot at cox.net (Pile,Chris)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:30:45 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Noel Black Liner
Message-ID: <000601c854e4$a9d42b30$76f8cd48@HomePC>

    List -

    There has been some talk over on the HAMB about Noel Black's ill-fated
double engined fueler turned streamliner.
    Does anyone have any pix and some of the details to solve the mystery?

    Thanks - Chris Pile aka aircap

From Jimwprice at aol.com  Sat Jan 12 08:11:00 2008
From: Jimwprice at aol.com (Jimwprice at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:11:00 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Noel Black Liner
Message-ID: <d39.1cbf870e.34ba3284@aol.com>

Duane Cole of DC Waterjet was involved in some aspects of the  car. 
_dcwaterjet at aol.com_ (mailto:dcwaterjet at aol.com) 
 
Also the front engine was owned by Jeff Shipley.  _jeffp at linkline.com_ 
(mailto:jeffp at linkline.com) 



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From kturk at ala.net  Sat Jan 12 07:08:43 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:08:43 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] 1000miles in 24hrs on a bike? ( no LSR )
Message-ID: <01bf01c85524$a5c9f980$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

So I decide I want to try this 1000 mile ride called the Iron Butt, Bun
Burner.... this is an organization that establishes records and goals for
idiots like ME... LOL   I got on my BMW F-650 single cylinder ( which is
cheating really cause the bike was built for this kind of stupidity )  and I
rode..... here's an bit of what happened....

...
 Wanna know how far you can push yourself on a scooter in a single day....
these guys are for you....

quick story... so... in the middle of the night... between 2 and 300 miles...
I get into really heavy Road construction to go with my Really heavy Rain and
FOG...  and I'm running along at ... what 70mph...  speed limit is 60 and I
can see far enough in front of me to brake... so I'm fairly comfy... ( okay
I'm scared freaking to death... but Gotta act manly here right? )...   anyway
I'm focused at  infinity... and the next thing I know... the bike literally
falls out from underneath me.... just gone.... like a freaking amusement park
ride... freaking GONE...  oh wait... there it is... spanking me in my falling
ass...  The road crew took 8-10" of material off that area... so I'm gathering
my senses back...and Yep... UP we go... into the Wild Blue Yonder... up and
away... into the sky.... Hmmm  Always remember to at least try and breath...
It's hard I know.. but if you have air your brain works better...  Okay it's
landing... cool... hmmm I really gotta do some more off road work with this
bike... Wow.... then I look up and the freaking lane is going to the right to
go around some freaking bridge and the lanes got that Shoulder of asphalt that
they think is cute...  Damn it man... I'm still trying to breath here...
Wow...  and the answer is YEP...  I pulled over and looked for my
Cigarettes.... didn't have any so I downed two cokes... an aspirin and
promised myself that next time I saw god at 4 in the morning... I'm gonna ask
a few questions...

I'm not sure this gig is going to be part of my life....  BUT what a kick in
the ass.... quite a challenge...


Just thought I'd share the latest lunacy...

Keith

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Sat Jan 12 09:32:02 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:32:02 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Noel Black Liner
In-Reply-To: <000601c854e4$a9d42b30$76f8cd48@HomePC>
References: <000601c854e4$a9d42b30$76f8cd48@HomePC>
Message-ID: <20080112173205.EA258187AA7@autox.team.net>

What mystery? Heard he broke a butt welded axle at about 400 and lost 
control. I wasn't there. Also heard that the accident generated the 
rule about "wagon wheel" steering. Somebody correct me.
Skip





At 10:30 PM 1/11/2008, Pile,Chris wrote:
>     List -
>
>     There has been some talk over on the HAMB about Noel Black's ill-fated
>double engined fueler turned streamliner.
>     Does anyone have any pix and some of the details to solve the mystery?
>
>     Thanks - Chris Pile aka aircap
>_______________________________________________

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Sat Jan 12 09:19:47 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:19:47 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Noel Black Liner
In-Reply-To: <000601c854e4$a9d42b30$76f8cd48@HomePC>
References: <000601c854e4$a9d42b30$76f8cd48@HomePC>
Message-ID: <20080112180627.296B8187A01@autox.team.net>

What mystery? Heard he broke a butt welded axle at about 400 and lost 
control. I wasn't there. Also heard that the accident generated the 
rule about "wagon wheel" steering. Somebody correct me.
Skip





At 10:30 PM 1/11/2008, Pile,Chris wrote:
>     List -
>
>     There has been some talk over on the HAMB about Noel Black's ill-fated
>double engined fueler turned streamliner.
>     Does anyone have any pix and some of the details to solve the mystery?
>
>     Thanks - Chris Pile aka aircap
>_______________________________________________

From adin at frontier.net  Sat Jan 12 11:07:17 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:07:17 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 1000miles in 24hrs on a bike? ( no LSR )
References: <01bf01c85524$a5c9f980$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <003701c85545$f80683a0$8b01a8c0@ZTxp>

I'll gladly sign your certification for the jacket patch - "this guy is a 
wack-job nut case looney."

David, had my fill of scooter adventures some decades ago . . .




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>; <ECTALSR at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 7:08 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] 1000miles in 24hrs on a bike? ( no LSR )


> So I decide I want to try this 1000 mile ride called the Iron Butt, Bun
> Burner.... this is an organization that establishes records and goals for
> idiots like ME... LOL   I got on my BMW F-650 single cylinder ( which is
> cheating really cause the bike was built for this kind of stupidity )  and 
> I
> rode..... here's an bit of what happened....
>
> ...
> Wanna know how far you can push yourself on a scooter in a single day....
> these guys are for you....
>
> quick story... so... in the middle of the night... between 2 and 300 
> miles...
> I get into really heavy Road construction to go with my Really heavy Rain 
> and
> FOG...  and I'm running along at ... what 70mph...  speed limit is 60 and 
> I
> can see far enough in front of me to brake... so I'm fairly comfy... ( 
> okay
> I'm scared freaking to death... but Gotta act manly here right? )... 
> anyway
> I'm focused at  infinity... and the next thing I know... the bike 
> literally
> falls out from underneath me.... just gone.... like a freaking amusement 
> park
> ride... freaking GONE...  oh wait... there it is... spanking me in my 
> falling
> ass...  The road crew took 8-10" of material off that area... so I'm 
> gathering
> my senses back...and Yep... UP we go... into the Wild Blue Yonder... up 
> and
> away... into the sky.... Hmmm  Always remember to at least try and 
> breath...
> It's hard I know.. but if you have air your brain works better...  Okay 
> it's
> landing... cool... hmmm I really gotta do some more off road work with 
> this
> bike... Wow.... then I look up and the freaking lane is going to the right 
> to
> go around some freaking bridge and the lanes got that Shoulder of asphalt 
> that
> they think is cute...  Damn it man... I'm still trying to breath here...
> Wow...  and the answer is YEP...  I pulled over and looked for my
> Cigarettes.... didn't have any so I downed two cokes... an aspirin and
> promised myself that next time I saw god at 4 in the morning... I'm gonna 
> ask
> a few questions...
>
> I'm not sure this gig is going to be part of my life....  BUT what a kick 
> in
> the ass.... quite a challenge...
>
>
> Just thought I'd share the latest lunacy...
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Sat Jan 12 14:21:10 2008
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:21:10 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] 1000miles in 24hrs on a bike? ( no LSR )
Message-ID: <004201c85561$0db36b30$446b2544@john>

                       From  The terror of Highway 101

: Then he took off like the Devil and there was fire in his eyes!! He
said "I'll go a thousand miles before the sun can rise." But he hit a
screamin' diesel
that was California-bound" And when they cleared the wreckage, all
they found - - - -


So I decide I want to try this 1000 mile ride called the Iron Butt, Bun
Burner.... this is an organization that establishes records and goals for
idiots like ME... LOL   I got on my BMW F-650 single cylinder ( which is
cheating really cause the bike was built for this kind of stupidity )  and I
rode..... here's an bit of what happened....

...
 Wanna know how far you can push yourself on a scooter in a single day....
these guys are for you....

quick story... so... in the middle of the night... between 2 and 300 miles...
I get into really heavy Road construction to go with my Really heavy Rain and
FOG...  and I'm running along at ... what 70mph...  speed limit is 60 and I
can see far enough in front of me to brake... so I'm fairly comfy... ( okay
I'm scared freaking to death... but Gotta act manly here right? )...   anyway
I'm focused at  infinity... and the next thing I know... the bike literally
falls out from underneath me.... just gone.... like a freaking amusement park
ride... freaking GONE...  oh wait... there it is... spanking me in my falling
ass...  The road crew took 8-10" of material off that area... so I'm
gathering
my senses back...and Yep... UP we go... into the Wild Blue Yonder... up and
away... into the sky.... Hmmm  Always remember to at least try and breath...
It's hard I know.. but if you have air your brain works better...  Okay it's
landing... cool... hmmm I really gotta do some more off road work with this
bike... Wow.... then I look up and the freaking lane is going to the right to
go around some freaking bridge and the lanes got that Shoulder of asphalt
that
they think is cute...  Damn it man... I'm still trying to breath here...
Wow...  and the answer is YEP...  I pulled over and looked for my
Cigarettes.... didn't have any so I downed two cokes... an aspirin and
promised myself that next time I saw god at 4 in the morning... I'm gonna ask
a few questions...

I'm not sure this gig is going to be part of my life....  BUT what a kick in
the ass.... quite a challenge...


Just thought I'd share the latest lunacy...

Keith

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Sat Jan 12 15:04:14 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:04:14 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 1000miles in 24hrs on a bike? ( no LSR )
References: <004201c85561$0db36b30$446b2544@john>
Message-ID: <00f801c85567$1240fae0$6401a8c0@Glens>

OLD SAYING
Experience is what you get when you didn't what you wanted !!!!!
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Burk" <joyseydevil at comcast.net>
To: "LandSpeed List" <Land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] 1000miles in 24hrs on a bike? ( no LSR )


>                       From  The terror of Highway 101
>
> : Then he took off like the Devil and there was fire in his eyes!! He
> said "I'll go a thousand miles before the sun can rise." But he hit a
> screamin' diesel
> that was California-bound" And when they cleared the wreckage, all
> they found - - - -
>
>
> So I decide I want to try this 1000 mile ride called the Iron Butt, Bun
> Burner.... this is an organization that establishes records and goals for
> idiots like ME... LOL   I got on my BMW F-650 single cylinder ( which is
> cheating really cause the bike was built for this kind of stupidity )  and 
> I
> rode..... here's an bit of what happened....
>
> ...
> Wanna know how far you can push yourself on a scooter in a single day....
> these guys are for you....
>
> quick story... so... in the middle of the night... between 2 and 300 
> miles...
> I get into really heavy Road construction to go with my Really heavy Rain 
> and
> FOG...  and I'm running along at ... what 70mph...  speed limit is 60 and 
> I
> can see far enough in front of me to brake... so I'm fairly comfy... ( 
> okay
> I'm scared freaking to death... but Gotta act manly here right? )... 
> anyway
> I'm focused at  infinity... and the next thing I know... the bike 
> literally
> falls out from underneath me.... just gone.... like a freaking amusement 
> park
> ride... freaking GONE...  oh wait... there it is... spanking me in my 
> falling
> ass...  The road crew took 8-10" of material off that area... so I'm
> gathering
> my senses back...and Yep... UP we go... into the Wild Blue Yonder... up 
> and
> away... into the sky.... Hmmm  Always remember to at least try and 
> breath...
> It's hard I know.. but if you have air your brain works better...  Okay 
> it's
> landing... cool... hmmm I really gotta do some more off road work with 
> this
> bike... Wow.... then I look up and the freaking lane is going to the right 
> to
> go around some freaking bridge and the lanes got that Shoulder of asphalt
> that
> they think is cute...  Damn it man... I'm still trying to breath here...
> Wow...  and the answer is YEP...  I pulled over and looked for my
> Cigarettes.... didn't have any so I downed two cokes... an aspirin and
> promised myself that next time I saw god at 4 in the morning... I'm gonna 
> ask
> a few questions...
>
> I'm not sure this gig is going to be part of my life....  BUT what a kick 
> in
> the ass.... quite a challenge...
>
>
> Just thought I'd share the latest lunacy...
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 22:52:24 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:52:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
Message-ID: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

So, I've tried setting my engine in place to get an idea of where I want to put it.  As a reminder, this is an '86 Toyota Corolla that's getting a Yamaha R1 engine to race as an I/GC (Note: this means I've got a significant loss of weight over the front wheels already).

I can either put the engine forward and low in the car, or close to the firewall and up a couple inches.  Putting it near the back would require a hood scoop, while the forward position might not need one.  I've got some ideas on which I'd prefer, but as I'm new at land speed racing, I wanted to get a second opinion.  Any tips would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 00:10:07 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:10:07 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>

IMHO in general anything you do to help keep you going in a straight line is
the right thing to do.  This may well be contrary to what is conventional
wisdom for cars that are built to go well around corners.  Putting weight
forward rather than toward the center increases the polar moment of inertia
of the car which should make it harder for unbalanced aero forces to rotate
the nose into a spin.  (You know, the opposite of the trick figure skaters
do with their arms to make themselves spin faster)  Also putting weight
nearer the front wheel centerline will help traction for steering control.
If this means taking weight off the rear wheels, no problem.  Add extra
weight there.....you've got two miles to get that little GC up to speed.
But best of all, listen to the guys who have "been there and done that".
That's not me.....I'm an open car guy.  Frankly I doubt if you'd notice the
difference between the two options you're considering in a 135 mph gas
coupe.  So factors other than handling may be most important.
OK, all; the target is up.  Fire away.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lackey" <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement


> So, I've tried setting my engine in place to get an idea of where I want
to put it.  As a reminder, this is an '86 Toyota Corolla that's getting a
Yamaha R1 engine to race as an I/GC (Note: this means I've got a significant
loss of weight over the front wheels already).
> I can either put the engine forward and low in the car, or close to the
firewall and up a couple inches.  Putting it near the back would require a
hood scoop, while the forward position might not need one.  I've got some
ideas on which I'd prefer, but as I'm new at land speed racing, I wanted to
get a second opinion.  Any tips would be appreciated.  .......Thanks, Mike

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sun Jan 13 18:17:11 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:17:11 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
In-Reply-To: <011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <F53272C7242946E8BE95D514F44B3206@DaveSatellite>

Right now you are at the point where you are not fixing something that is 
broken or designed wrong and asking questions to avoid that problem. If it 
were me I would borrow a set of wheel scales and get an idea of what the 
weight distribution might be with a couple of different locations and where 
you might think the center of pressure might be as well.Avoiding the hood 
scoop would be a plus in my mind why add the drag if the weight distribution 
is not that different? Getting the center of gravity in front of the center 
of pressure with the most weight on the drive wheels would be my choice 
personally. You can have a car with 40/60 weight distribution as long as the 
center of gravity is in front of the center of  pressure..
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: "Mike Lackey" <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Engine Placement


> IMHO in general anything you do to help keep you going in a straight line 
> is
> the right thing to do.  This may well be contrary to what is conventional
> wisdom for cars that are built to go well around corners.  Putting weight
> forward rather than toward the center increases the polar moment of 
> inertia
> of the car which should make it harder for unbalanced aero forces to 
> rotate
> the nose into a spin.  (You know, the opposite of the trick figure skaters
> do with their arms to make themselves spin faster)  Also putting weight
> nearer the front wheel centerline will help traction for steering control.
> If this means taking weight off the rear wheels, no problem.  Add extra
> weight there.....you've got two miles to get that little GC up to speed.
> But best of all, listen to the guys who have "been there and done that".
> That's not me.....I'm an open car guy.  Frankly I doubt if you'd notice 
> the
> difference between the two options you're considering in a 135 mph gas
> coupe.  So factors other than handling may be most important.
> OK, all; the target is up.  Fire away.
> Ed Weldon
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Lackey" <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>
> To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 9:52 PM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
>
>
>> So, I've tried setting my engine in place to get an idea of where I want
> to put it.  As a reminder, this is an '86 Toyota Corolla that's getting a
> Yamaha R1 engine to race as an I/GC (Note: this means I've got a 
> significant
> loss of weight over the front wheels already).
>> I can either put the engine forward and low in the car, or close to the
> firewall and up a couple inches.  Putting it near the back would require a
> hood scoop, while the forward position might not need one.  I've got some
> ideas on which I'd prefer, but as I'm new at land speed racing, I wanted 
> to
> get a second opinion.  Any tips would be appreciated.  .......Thanks, Mike
> _______________________________________________

From kturk at ala.net  Sun Jan 13 09:04:05 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:04:05 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02a901c855fd$f02ac200$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

Is it front wheel drive or rear?

I'm not sure it matters much really... the motor isn't going to have 
excessive power... thinking over say 350hp,  more then enough to blow away 
records I'm sure... but not so much that big wheel spin at 250mph is going 
to be an issue... ... so pretty much whatever works should be fine...

Keith
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lackey" <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:52 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement


> So, I've tried setting my engine in place to get an idea of where I want 
> to put it.  As a reminder, this is an '86 Toyota Corolla that's getting a 
> Yamaha R1 engine to race as an I/GC (Note: this means I've got a 
> significant loss of weight over the front wheels already).
>
> I can either put the engine forward and low in the car, or close to the 
> firewall and up a couple inches.  Putting it near the back would require a 
> hood scoop, while the forward position might not need one.  I've got some 
> ideas on which I'd prefer, but as I'm new at land speed racing, I wanted 
> to get a second opinion.  Any tips would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 10:28:02 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:28:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
Message-ID: <540215.90404.qm@web30011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This would be a RWD Corolla.  

350hp?  I'm probably closer to half that...  but since this particular class has an open record right now, even that will hopefully be enough to set the record.

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: Keith Turk <kturk at ala.net>
To: Mike Lackey <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>; land-speed at autox.team.net
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:04:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Engine Placement

Is it front wheel drive or rear?

I'm not sure it matters much really... the motor isn't going to have 
excessive power... thinking over say 350hp,  more then enough to blow away 
records I'm sure... but not so much that big wheel spin at 250mph is going 
to be an issue... ... so pretty much whatever works should be fine...

Keith
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lackey" <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:52 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement


> So, I've tried setting my engine in place to get an idea of where I want 
> to put it.  As a reminder, this is an '86 Toyota Corolla that's getting a 
> Yamaha R1 engine to race as an I/GC (Note: this means I've got a 
> significant loss of weight over the front wheels already).
>
> I can either put the engine forward and low in the car, or close to the 
> firewall and up a couple inches.  Putting it near the back would require a 
> hood scoop, while the forward position might not need one.  I've got some 
> ideas on which I'd prefer, but as I'm new at land speed racing, I wanted 
> to get a second opinion.  Any tips would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
>


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 10:30:19 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:30:19 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>
	<F53272C7242946E8BE95D514F44B3206@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S>

Dave--Cg in front of Cp (looking from the side, i.e. an incipient spin).
So how does this play out in your average stock bodied sedan?  It's not like
you can add tail feathers to that "arrow".  A lot easier in a class where
you can do significant body mods.  This works in modified roadsters and comp
coupes though I think longer wheelbase is a much bigger factor.  But
basically I think your "don't fix it if it aint broke" is the real story in
the '86 Corolla I/GC example.
I detect in Mike Lackey's question an all to commonly seen blind allegience
to the best design principles for road race cars in planning an LSR car.
Hey here's a fun idea--- How about a giant slalom course on the Salt?  The
skiers do it.  How about us? LOL.....
Ed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>
To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "Mike Lackey"
<mike_lackey at yahoo.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
> ....... Getting the center of gravity in front of the center
> of pressure with the most weight on the drive wheels would be my choice
> personally. You can have a car with 40/60 weight distribution as long as
the
> center of gravity is in front of the center of  pressure..
> Dave

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 11:17:56 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:17:56 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S>
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>
	<F53272C7242946E8BE95D514F44B3206@DaveSatellite>
	<000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <213AEC32-A467-4E01-A43B-7B6A7A85DB1D@comcast.net>

My suggestion before trying a GS salt course would be to look at the  
Coddington
motorhome experience.  Ab Jenkins was running on a 10 mile circle and  
tore
up the course to the point where they put down rock to stabilize  
sections of the
course.  That was when we had MUCH deeper salt to run on.

FWIW ... Ski racers add salt to a course to cause it to solidify.   
Would you suggest
we add snow?

Wes

On Jan 13, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Ed Weldon wrote:

> Dave--Cg in front of Cp (looking from the side, i.e. an incipient  
> spin).
> So how does this play out in your average stock bodied sedan?  It's  
> not like
> you can add tail feathers to that "arrow".  A lot easier in a class  
> where
> you can do significant body mods.  This works in modified roadsters  
> and comp
> coupes though I think longer wheelbase is a much bigger factor.  But
> basically I think your "don't fix it if it aint broke" is the real  
> story in
> the '86 Corolla I/GC example.
> I detect in Mike Lackey's question an all to commonly seen blind  
> allegience
> to the best design principles for road race cars in planning an LSR  
> car.
> Hey here's a fun idea--- How about a giant slalom course on the  
> Salt?  The
> skiers do it.  How about us? LOL.....
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>
> To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "Mike Lackey"
> <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
>> ....... Getting the center of gravity in front of the center
>> of pressure with the most weight on the drive wheels would be my  
>> choice
>> personally. You can have a car with 40/60 weight distribution as  
>> long as
> the
>> center of gravity is in front of the center of  pressure..
>> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 11:26:22 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:26:22 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>
	<F53272C7242946E8BE95D514F44B3206@DaveSatellite>
	<000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S>
	<213AEC32-A467-4E01-A43B-7B6A7A85DB1D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c85611$cf9636a0$6501a8c0@S>

Hey I like the snow idea.  Wasn't World Finals "snowed out" one year?
OK, maybe a giant Slalom with 1/8 scale R/C cars......
Still laughing
Ed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wester Potter" <wester6935 at comcast.net>
To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "LAND SPEED LIST"
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Engine Placement

> My suggestion before trying a GS salt course would be to look at the
> Coddington
> motorhome experience.  Ab Jenkins was running on a 10 mile circle and
> tore
> up the course to the point where they put down rock to stabilize
> sections of the
> course.  That was when we had MUCH deeper salt to run on.
> FWIW ... Ski racers add salt to a course to cause it to solidify.
> Would you suggest we add snow?

From jon at infodestruction.com  Sun Jan 13 11:25:43 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:25:43 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
In-Reply-To: <213AEC32-A467-4E01-A43B-7B6A7A85DB1D@comcast.net>
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>
	<F53272C7242946E8BE95D514F44B3206@DaveSatellite>
	<000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S>
	<213AEC32-A467-4E01-A43B-7B6A7A85DB1D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <818FAD5F-CD9C-446F-8FA8-B819A2D1B59B@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 13, 2008, at 1:17 PM, Wester Potter wrote:


FWIW ... Ski racers add salt to a course to cause it to solidify.
Would you suggest
we add snow?

Wes






If you'd like some snow, Wes (or any of you) -- there's over a foot  
of snow in the forecast for the next 30 hours.  I could spare some.   
Send a stamped self-addressed (refrigerated) dump truck to me and  
I'll send the snow by return mail.


                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From saltfevr at q.com  Sun Jan 13 11:29:44 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (TOM M SHANNON)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:29:44 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S>
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S>
	<F53272C7242946E8BE95D514F44B3206@DaveSatellite> 
	<000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <BAY122-W14E4C999AC0745145075B9C9450@phx.gbl>

Boatman Ed;

Need any corner flaggers?? I'm there! LOLTom ShannonMagna, Utah> From:
23.weldon at comcast.net> To: ddahlgren at snet.net; mike_lackey at yahoo.com;
land-speed at autox.team.net> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:30:19 -0800> Subject: Re:
[Land-speed] Engine Placement> > Dave--Cg in front of Cp (looking from the
side, i.e. an incipient spin).> So how does this play out in your average
stock bodied sedan? It's not like> you can add tail feathers to that "arrow".
A lot easier in a class where> you can do significant body mods. This works in
modified roadsters and comp> coupes though I think longer wheelbase is a much
bigger factor. But> basically I think your "don't fix it if it aint broke" is
the real story in> the '86 Corolla I/GC example.> I detect in Mike Lackey's
question an all to commonly seen blind allegience> to the best design
principles for road race cars in planning an LSR car.> Hey here's a fun
idea--- How about a giant slalom course on the Salt? The> skiers do it. How
about us? LOL.....> Ed> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Dahlgren"
<ddahlgren at snet.net>> To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "Mike Lackey">
<mike_lackey at yahoo.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>> Sent: Sunday, January
13, 2008 5:17 PM> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Engine Placement> > .......
Getting the center of gravity in front of the center> > of pressure with the
most weight on the drive wheels would be my choice> > personally. You can have
a car with 40/60 weight distribution as long as> the> > center of gravity is
in front of the center of pressure..> > Dave>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are
subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Sun Jan 13 11:38:58 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:38:58 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com><011501c855b3$57039a60$6501a8c0@S><F53272C7242946E8BE95D514F44B3206@DaveSatellite><000a01c8560a$00f0c560$6501a8c0@S><213AEC32-A467-4E01-A43B-7B6A7A85DB1D@comcast.net>
	<818FAD5F-CD9C-446F-8FA8-B819A2D1B59B@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <01ba01c85613$956bdaa0$6401a8c0@Glens>

Wes has enough snow in the SLC area to last for months.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Wennerberg" <jon at infodestruction.com>
To: "Wester Potter" <wester6935 at comcast.net>
Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Engine Placement


> On Jan 13, 2008, at 1:17 PM, Wester Potter wrote:
> 
> 
> FWIW ... Ski racers add salt to a course to cause it to solidify.
> Would you suggest
> we add snow?
> 
> Wes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you'd like some snow, Wes (or any of you) -- there's over a foot  
> of snow in the forecast for the next 30 hours.  I could spare some.   
> Send a stamped self-addressed (refrigerated) dump truck to me and  
> I'll send the snow by return mail.
> 
> 
>                 Jon Wennerberg
> Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
>              Marquette, Michigan
>              (that's 'way up north)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Land-speed mailing list
> 
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From nt788 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 11:48:39 2008
From: nt788 at comcast.net (nt788 at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:48:39 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
Message-ID: <011320081848.7977.478A5D070006066F00001F292216554886C8C8C99B02@comcast.net>

As far forward as you can get it. Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Mike Lackey <mike_lackey at yahoo.com> 

> So, I've tried setting my engine in place to get an idea of where I want to put 
> it. As a reminder, this is an '86 Toyota Corolla that's getting a Yamaha R1 
> engine to race as an I/GC (Note: this means I've got a significant loss of 
> weight over the front wheels already). 
> 
> I can either put the engine forward and low in the car, or close to the firewall 
> and up a couple inches. Putting it near the back would require a hood scoop, 
> while the forward position might not need one. I've got some ideas on which I'd 
> prefer, but as I'm new at land speed racing, I wanted to get a second opinion. 
> Any tips would be appreciated. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Mike 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________________ 
> ____ 
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From zoombot at cox.net  Sun Jan 13 12:05:35 2008
From: zoombot at cox.net (Pile,Chris)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:05:35 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Anyone need a shotgun motor?
Message-ID: <000d01c85617$474c04e0$76f8cd48@HomePC>

    List -

    Right now there is a 429 Ford on eBay, the seller is in Salina, KS (right
on I-70).
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-BOSS-429-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ330203088806
QQihZ014QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    - Chris Pile aka aircap

From jdincau at qnet.com  Sun Jan 13 12:20:41 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:20:41 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] no LSR content, real HP
Message-ID: <002601c85619$644ae460$0500000a@Den>

Ah the good old days at the old lazy L

 http://www.enginehistory.org/p&w_j58.htm

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sun Jan 13 13:05:19 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:05:19 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement
In-Reply-To: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <431169.95541.qm@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3345468AAC0B4664B93243E4F0D6D7E2@LMS>

What class are you running ---remember you may be subject to the set back 
rules based off of the frt plug!!!!!!!!
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lackey" <mike_lackey at yahoo.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 10:52 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Placement


> So, I've tried setting my engine in place to get an idea of where I want 
> to put it.  As a reminder, this is an '86 Toyota Corolla that's getting a 
> Yamaha R1 engine to race as an I/GC (Note: this means I've got a 
> significant loss of weight over the front wheels already).
>
> I can either put the engine forward and low in the car, or close to the 
> firewall and up a couple inches.  Putting it near the back would require a 
> hood scoop, while the forward position might not need one.  I've got some 
> ideas on which I'd prefer, but as I'm new at land speed racing, I wanted 
> to get a second opinion.  Any tips would be appreciated.

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 13 14:43:39 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:43:39 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] no LSR content, real HP
References: <002601c85619$644ae460$0500000a@Den>
Message-ID: <000a01c8562d$5c46a5b0$2101a8c0@WinXP>

Thanks Jim,

That photo of the J58 with the afterburner lit went right into my 
screensaver photos

Back in the 1950s at the Westinghouse Combustion Lab we tried using 
hypergolic propellants to solve some afterburner problems
but I don't remember if we played with TEB.

Lance


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Dincau" <jdincau at qnet.com>
To: "land Speed List" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] no LSR content, real HP


> Ah the good old days at the old lazy L
>
> http://www.enginehistory.org/p&w_j58.htm

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sun Jan 13 14:56:17 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:56:17 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] no LSR content, real HP
In-Reply-To: <000a01c8562d$5c46a5b0$2101a8c0@WinXP>
References: <002601c85619$644ae460$0500000a@Den>
	<000a01c8562d$5c46a5b0$2101a8c0@WinXP>
Message-ID: <00f701c8562f$1fb77eb0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Awesome engine!

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ


-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
joseph lance
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 2:44 PM
To: land Speed List; Jim Dincau
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] no LSR content, real HP

Thanks Jim,

That photo of the J58 with the afterburner lit went right into my 
screensaver photos

Back in the 1950s at the Westinghouse Combustion Lab we tried using 
hypergolic propellants to solve some afterburner problems
but I don't remember if we played with TEB.

Lance


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Dincau" <jdincau at qnet.com>
To: "land Speed List" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] no LSR content, real HP


> Ah the good old days at the old lazy L
>
> http://www.enginehistory.org/p&w_j58.htm
_______________________________________________

From adin at frontier.net  Sun Jan 13 17:54:40 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (adin at frontier.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:54:40 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Anyone need a shotgun motor?
In-Reply-To: <000d01c85617$474c04e0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
References: <000d01c85617$474c04e0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
Message-ID: <20080113175440.wp86mn434sk480wg@webmail.brainstorminternet.net>

I don't think you can get heads that cheep (if one could find them).

I'll take it.

David in Durango




Quoting "Pile,Chris" <zoombot at cox.net>:

>     List -
>
>     Right now there is a 429 Ford on eBay, the seller is in Salina, KS (right
> on I-70).
>     http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-BOSS-429-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ330203088806
> QQihZ014QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>     - Chris Pile aka aircap
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From b.a.savage at wildblue.net  Mon Jan 14 09:20:44 2008
From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:20:44 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
Message-ID: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>

"And to think - this was done with 1950's technology."

Every time someone talking about cars says "their engineers are better 
than American
engineers", I get upset. Sometimes I will challenged them and ask who 
has built space craft
that have been more reliable than Voyager 1 and Voyager 2, which were 
designed and built
by American Engineers. I then go on about Ford's dominance at Le mans 
using American
Engineering.


The reason that Detroit cars are not as reliable as _some_ foreign cars 
is that American Management
will not let American Engineers do it.
Management is too busy working on contracts to get new iron wood desks.

Bryan

OBTW  Remember, the Japanese learned why they should build quality cars 
and how to do it,
             from an American, W. Edwards Deming.                  
  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=W._Edwards_Deming_Institute&action=edit> 

From kturk at ala.net  Mon Jan 14 09:35:20 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:35:20 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

Bryan I totally agree... and politically could jump all over this ... but 
best I let that dog lie...

K 

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Mon Jan 14 09:46:35 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:46:35 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
	<037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>

Back when all of the outsourcing started the unions fought it and lost. Hell 
they pay the farmers to not grow crops so we can buy the same stuff out of 
Mexico and let them cross the borders and steal from us and send the money 
home. In aerospace they had parts built all over the world for the planes 
and I assure you we got a lot of parts that needed hours of cleanup and re 
work before they could be used. That same for cheap Jap cars and now look 
they outsell all of the US cars.
Done bitching
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
To: "Bryan Savage" <b.a.savage at wildblue.net>; "List Land Speed" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering


> Bryan I totally agree... and politically could jump all over this ... but
> best I let that dog lie...
>
> K
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From b.a.savage at wildblue.net  Mon Jan 14 09:47:12 2008
From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:47:12 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering    (NON LSR)
In-Reply-To: <037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
	<037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <478B9210.7090602@wildblue.net>

A good idea Keith

List, I'm sorry I flew off the handle.

Bryan



Keith Turk wrote:
> Bryan I totally agree... and politically could jump all over this ... 
> but best I let that dog lie...
>
> K

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Mon Jan 14 10:52:58 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:52:58 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
	<037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <0B97DC45-633D-4C41-BD14-E56AC968E0AE@comcast.net>

Ford Motor Company's highest cost, next to raw materials, is
employee benefits, not salaries.  You can blame collective bargaining
for that.  Locally Geneva Steel shut own and the plants equipment was
sold to South Korea where it was newer and better than what they had.
The United Steelworkers contract allowed a sabbatical year with full pay
every seven years.

American technology and war damage aid built the looms and spinning
equipment that allowed the Japanese textile industry to get a huge jump
on the tired US equipment that produced the uniforms worn by the US
military in WWII.  Thirty years ago we used to buy from US manufacturers
who were producing the shirts, slacks and suits in the US.  Now we ship
  a computer disc anywhere in the world to a "bundler" who uses US laser
technology to cut the garments and they pay pennies on the wages that
would be paid in the US to construct the clothing.  That American
mainstay, Levi Strauss, used to make their jeans in San Francisco, then
El Paso and now completely in Mexico and other Central American
countries.  Where do the big profits go?  To the American stock holders.
There's a trade off but I don't like the way things are going!

Wes
On Jan 14, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Glen Barrett wrote:

> Back when all of the outsourcing started the unions fought it and  
> lost. Hell
> they pay the farmers to not grow crops so we can buy the same stuff  
> out of
> Mexico and let them cross the borders and steal from us and send the  
> money
> home. In aerospace they had parts built all over the world for the  
> planes
> and I assure you we got a lot of parts that needed hours of cleanup  
> and re
> work before they could be used. That same for cheap Jap cars and now  
> look
> they outsell all of the US cars.
> Done bitching
> Glen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
> To: "Bryan Savage" <b.a.savage at wildblue.net>; "List Land Speed"
> <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering
>
>
>> Bryan I totally agree... and politically could jump all over  
>> this ... but
>> best I let that dog lie...
>>
>> K

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Mon Jan 14 11:08:56 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:08:56 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net><037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <744B00E3AD2343CA8F57ED30CAFE44FE@DaveSatellite>

I suspect the outsourcing started because of the unions and that is why they 
lost. If you had to pay someone to install a left front wheel all day every 
day what do you think it is worth in the real world.. Not an estimation of 
the worth of a person but an estimate of the task.. Farmers don't grow crops 
so the soil is able to support growing crops and not depleted aka dust bowl 
when corn and wheat used it all and corn is the most forgiving there..Our 
great grand children will be happy about those..
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glen Barrett" <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
To: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>; "Bryan Savage" <b.a.savage at wildblue.net>; 
"List Land Speed" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering


> Back when all of the outsourcing started the unions fought it and lost. 
> Hell
> they pay the farmers to not grow crops so we can buy the same stuff out of
> Mexico and let them cross the borders and steal from us and send the money
> home. In aerospace they had parts built all over the world for the planes
> and I assure you we got a lot of parts that needed hours of cleanup and re
> work before they could be used. That same for cheap Jap cars and now look
> they outsell all of the US cars.
> Done bitching
> Glen

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 14 11:22:51 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:22:51 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W34348B483EF2F649DCD35DD9460@phx.gbl>

   BRIAN:  Totally agree with you on this...   a very DEEP and complicated
subject to be sure...



  TAKE PRIDE   M' FRIENDS:   "this just in"    " the North American Car of the
Year is Chevrolet Malibu".

   Beating out the HoN-da Accord   among all the others    -heard it this
morning on the radio

     God Bless America


cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"  in exile in So. New York,

.............................................................................
...................................................................


> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:20:44 -0800
> From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
>
> "And to think - this was done with 1950's technology."
>
> Every time someone talking about cars says "their engineers are better
> than American engineers", I get upset. Sometimes I will challenged them and
ask who
> has built space craft that have been more reliable than Voyager 1 and
Voyager 2, which were
> designed and built by American Engineers. I then go on about Ford's
dominance at Le mans
> using American Engineering.
>
>
> The reason that Detroit cars are not as reliable as _some_ foreign cars
> is that American Management will not let American Engineers do it.
> Management is too busy working on contracts to get new iron wood desks.
>
> Bryan
>
> OBTW  Remember, the Japanese learned why they should build quality cars
> and how to do it, from an American, W. Edwards Deming.
>
>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=W._Edwards_Deming_Institute&action
=edit>

_________________________________________________________________
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 14 12:13:33 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:13:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
Message-ID: <5895782.1200338013978.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The test is really time. Look back at any 10 year old american car built/designed in america and see how it's fairing with the competition. Most of the time not so good. I use this reason by looking at Hondas etc. which were assembled by Americans in America and see more of them. Not sure on any of the other brands: Toyota, Nissan, Mazda but many are assembled in American with American labor without "some" of the same labor problems. Remember I said some. Many in American see vehicles as "throw away". Use it until it's paid off and get rid of it and start the payments over. O well...


>
>
>  TAKE PRIDE   M' FRIENDS:   "this just in"    " the North American Car of the
>Year is Chevrolet Malibu".
>
>   Beating out the HoN-da Accord   among all the others    -heard it this
>morning on the radio

From NT788 at comcast.net  Mon Jan 14 12:50:14 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:50:14 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
Message-ID: <011420081950.6148.478BBCF5000EEE4E000018042216566276C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

I have seen the enemy, it is us! Vote for Ron Paul

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net> 

> I suspect the outsourcing started because of the unions and that is why they 
> lost. If you had to pay someone to install a left front wheel all day every 
> day what do you think it is worth in the real world.. Not an estimation of 
> the worth of a person but an estimate of the task.. Farmers don't grow crops 
> so the soil is able to support growing crops and not depleted aka dust bowl 
> when corn and wheat used it all and corn is the most forgiving there..Our 
> great grand children will be happy about those.. 
> Dave 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Glen Barrett" 
> To: "Keith Turk" ; "Bryan Savage" ; 
> "List Land Speed" 
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:46 AM 
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering 
> 
> 
> > Back when all of the outsourcing started the unions fought it and lost. 
> > Hell 
> > they pay the farmers to not grow crops so we can buy the same stuff out of 
> > Mexico and let them cross the borders and steal from us and send the money 
> > home. In aerospace they had parts built all over the world for the planes 
> > and I assure you we got a lot of parts that needed hours of cleanup and re 
> > work before they could be used. That same for cheap Jap cars and now look 
> > they outsell all of the US cars. 
> > Done bitching 
> > Glen 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From RACE427 at aol.com  Mon Jan 14 13:00:38 2008
From: RACE427 at aol.com (RACE427 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:00:38 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Malibu
Message-ID: <d35.1bf6d5bb.34bd1966@aol.com>

The "new" Chevrolet Malibu is a SAAB idea.  So I have  been told.
 
  Tony G



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From b.a.savage at wildblue.net  Mon Jan 14 13:11:59 2008
From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:11:59 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <0B97DC45-633D-4C41-BD14-E56AC968E0AE@comcast.net>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
	<037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
	<0B97DC45-633D-4C41-BD14-E56AC968E0AE@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <478BC20F.9090008@wildblue.net>

Well Wes, who agreed to all of those benefits? Management or Engineering?

I remember back in the '40's and '50's, there were auto strikes that 
lasted months.
By the '70's, management was caving in at the threat of a strike.

A crazy way to run a business.

Bryan



Wester Potter wrote:
> Ford Motor Company's highest cost, next to raw materials, is
> employee benefits, not salaries.  You can blame collective bargaining
> for that.  Locally Geneva Steel shut own and the plants equipment was
> sold to South Korea where it was newer and better than what they had.
> The United Steelworkers contract allowed a sabbatical year with full pay
> every seven years.
>
> American technology and war damage aid built the looms and spinning
> equipment that allowed the Japanese textile industry to get a huge jump
> on the tired US equipment that produced the uniforms worn by the US
> military in WWII.  Thirty years ago we used to buy from US manufacturers
> who were producing the shirts, slacks and suits in the US.  Now we ship
>   a computer disc anywhere in the world to a "bundler" who uses US laser
> technology to cut the garments and they pay pennies on the wages that
> would be paid in the US to construct the clothing.  That American
> mainstay, Levi Strauss, used to make their jeans in San Francisco, then
> El Paso and now completely in Mexico and other Central American
> countries.  Where do the big profits go?  To the American stock holders.
> There's a trade off but I don't like the way things are going!
>
> Wes
> On Jan 14, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Glen Barrett wrote:
>
>   
>> Back when all of the outsourcing started the unions fought it and  
>> lost. Hell
>> they pay the farmers to not grow crops so we can buy the same stuff  
>> out of
>> Mexico and let them cross the borders and steal from us and send the  
>> money
>> home. In aerospace they had parts built all over the world for the  
>> planes
>> and I assure you we got a lot of parts that needed hours of cleanup  
>> and re
>> work before they could be used. That same for cheap Jap cars and now  
>> look
>> they outsell all of the US cars.
>> Done bitching
>> Glen
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
>> To: "Bryan Savage" <b.a.savage at wildblue.net>; "List Land Speed"
>> <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Bryan I totally agree... and politically could jump all over  
>>> this ... but
>>> best I let that dog lie...
>>>
>>> K
>>>       
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as b.a.savage at earthlink.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From dlodom at charter.net  Mon Jan 14 13:49:54 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:49:54 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <478BC20F.9090008@wildblue.net>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
	<037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
	<0B97DC45-633D-4C41-BD14-E56AC968E0AE@comcast.net>
	<478BC20F.9090008@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <478BCAF2.4030505@charter.net>

Bryan Savage wrote:

>Well Wes, who agreed to all of those benefits? Management or Engineering?
>
>I remember back in the '40's and '50's, there were auto strikes that 
>lasted months.
>By the '70's, management was caving in at the threat of a strike.
>
>A crazy way to run a business.
>
>Bryan
>
>
>In 1968 after Shelby American closed down I still had a friend that worked for Ford. High Up. That was the year of a strike when they only struck one car maker and the other companys would go along with what ever the settlement said. After the settlement my friend told me " the UAW has just killed the american car maker ". It would take years but there was no way a company could pay a growing number of people more and more money for not producing a product and survive. I know that every month GM sends checks to hundreds of retired workers that are over 100 years old. Very sad but true.
>  
>
Doug Odom in big ditch

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Mon Jan 14 15:09:00 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:09:00 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering/Seriously NON LSR
Message-ID: <c92.1f9557ce.34bd377c@aol.com>

IMHO/FWIW
The comments of most of the people on this list are mostly  from auto 
industry related experiences and observances of the past. These  pretty well seem to 
mirror the US economy in general, regarding what we now call  outsourcing. 
I was getting pretty down on the future in general until the timely showing  
last night of the CNBC special on Warren Buffet, third richest man on earth 
and  a pretty neat guy to boot. What he said that was heartening is that in his  
recent travels to China he observed they are already outsourcing labor to  
Viet Nam because the Chinese economy and standard of living has escalated  so 
rapidly.  I read a while ago that Japanese hourly auto labor has  been higher 
than the US for a significant time but didn't think that the  Chinese, being 
both a Communist and Capitalistic nation would catch up this  fast. 
Anybody our age not notice how cheap stuff is that we actually paid more  for 
twenty years ago, mostly electronics and textiles? I am not a fan of foreign  
child labor/price fixing/crap products/Illegal Immigrants, BUT that aspect of 
it  was part of the financial boom that came crashing down right along  with 
the Twin Towers. I feel we are on a downslope now, but it is fixable.
Check out the Financial rebirth of Ireland, we must do what they did, Same  
problems, same solutions.
Bob, oversimplifies?, W 
PS JACK !!!... Ron Paul wears a tinfoil skull cap 



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From b.a.savage at wildblue.net  Mon Jan 14 15:28:02 2008
From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:28:02 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <478BCAF2.4030505@charter.net>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
	<037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
	<0B97DC45-633D-4C41-BD14-E56AC968E0AE@comcast.net>
	<478BC20F.9090008@wildblue.net> <478BCAF2.4030505@charter.net>
Message-ID: <478BE1F2.70600@wildblue.net>

Interesting Doug.

"the UAW has just killed the American car maker" actually the American car maker
 held the gun to their head while the UAW pulled the trigger.
Are you saying that we should go back to the way it was? If the workers went on strike,
the National Guard came in and shot them or hit men hired by the Company beat
them to death or put them in the hospital.

Are you aware that Honda builds Excellent Quality cars in Ohio using the same stupid,
slovenly workers that Detroit uses?

That's all for me,
Bryan




DougOdom wrote:
> Bryan Savage wrote:
>
>> Well Wes, who agreed to all of those benefits? Management or 
>> Engineering?
>>
>> I remember back in the '40's and '50's, there were auto strikes that 
>> lasted months.
>> By the '70's, management was caving in at the threat of a strike.
>>
>> A crazy way to run a business.
>>
>> Bryan
>>
>>
>> In 1968 after Shelby American closed down I still had a friend that 
>> worked for Ford. High Up. That was the year of a strike when they 
>> only struck one car maker and the other companys would go along with 
>> what ever the settlement said. After the settlement my friend told me 
>> " the UAW has just killed the american car maker ". It would take 
>> years but there was no way a company could pay a growing number of 
>> people more and more money for not producing a product and survive. I 
>> know that every month GM sends checks to hundreds of retired workers 
>> that are over 100 years old. Very sad but true.
>>  
>>
> Doug Odom in big ditch

From dlodom at charter.net  Mon Jan 14 16:03:26 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:03:26 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <478BE1F2.70600@wildblue.net>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net>
	<037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens>
	<0B97DC45-633D-4C41-BD14-E56AC968E0AE@comcast.net>
	<478BC20F.9090008@wildblue.net> <478BCAF2.4030505@charter.net>
	<478BE1F2.70600@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <478BEA3E.1060008@charter.net>

Bryan Savage wrote:

>
> Interesting Doug.
>
> "the UAW has just killed the American car maker" actually the American 
> car maker
> held the gun to their head while the UAW pulled the trigger.
> Are you saying that we should go back to the way it was? If the 
> workers went on strike,
> the National Guard came in and shot them or hit men hired by the 
> Company beat
> them to death or put them in the hospital.
>
> Are you aware that Honda builds Excellent Quality cars in Ohio using 
> the same stupid,
> slovenly workers that Detroit uses?
>
> That's all for me,
> Bryan
>
> Bryan, You totally missed the point.   Its not the workers who are 
> working that is the problem other than the high cost of health 
> insurance. Its the cost of the people that are NOT working. Honda and 
> Toyota don't have to add $5,000 to the cost of each unit to pay for 
> non workers like american companys do.

Doug

From mactem at mebtel.net  Mon Jan 14 17:19:20 2008
From: mactem at mebtel.net (Mobley-Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:19:20 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
Message-ID: <005201c8570c$4672c590$0500a8c0@brightstar>

IMHO everyone involved, be it government, corporate management, union
management, and workers of all levels, selfishly want, ask, demand more
money for themselves without taking into account the consequences it has
on the entire system. The system would have worked had management been
more caring of the workers and consumers, and had the workers and unions
been more able to see that their jobs had a finite worth, and had the
consumers bought items that supported their own instead of purchasing
cheaper but ultimately more costly (to the whole society) items.
Individual selfishness is really to blame. Who taught us that?
David

From kturk at ala.net  Mon Jan 14 17:25:08 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:25:08 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
References: <005201c8570c$4672c590$0500a8c0@brightstar>
Message-ID: <03b001c8570d$1980ec50$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

Man I hate politic's but this just reeks...

Basically what we had was a Manufacturing society... we kicked ass... we 
made things... now we don't... you pick the reason... mostly because we are 
greedy bastards and want more for less....

SO who manufactures now?  and if you want to know where the real power is... 
Oh hell nevermind... I'm preaching to the choir...

K 

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Jan 14 18:50:31 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:50:31 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <011420081950.6148.478BBCF5000EEE4E000018042216566276C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
References: <011420081950.6148.478BBCF5000EEE4E000018042216566276C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9868DE682071405189A10DADBA2A9E55@LMS>

Jack  right on As in the IMORTAL words of POGO  "we have met the enemy and 
he is US"!!!!!!
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <NT788 at comcast.net> 

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Jan 14 18:55:50 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:55:50 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Malibu
In-Reply-To: <d35.1bf6d5bb.34bd1966@aol.com>
References: <d35.1bf6d5bb.34bd1966@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E17F068F10F498DA81740A23602BFF6@LMS>

not so----GM has been using "world platforms"  that several different brands 
around the world this is the second generation of the Chevy, Pontiac, Opal, 
Saab, Saturn---it is unbeleveable how different they can make them ride, 
drive, handle and perform  with small changes to the drive train.
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA 

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Jan 14 19:05:21 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:05:21 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <478BE1F2.70600@wildblue.net>
References: <478B8BDC.7050701@wildblue.net><037201c856cb$7bc7ca60$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><001e01c856cd$09762040$6401a8c0@Glens><0B97DC45-633D-4C41-BD14-E56AC968E0AE@comcast.net><478BC20F.9090008@wildblue.net>
	<478BCAF2.4030505@charter.net> <478BE1F2.70600@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <878CE1311C2B40EFBB07BF9935E7A3FC@LMS>

They aren't slovenly anymore---its the fringe benefits that are killing 
them---GM can now produce some of their cars cheaper that TNH---as far labor 
in the Plants---it the BENNIES from past contracts---just lost all of mine 
because I took a cash out from my plant closing back in '85 with 14 years 
service when I retieried.last year...
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA 

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 14 19:42:39 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:42:39 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <011420081950.6148.478BBCF5000EEE4E000018042216566276C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
References: <011420081950.6148.478BBCF5000EEE4E000018042216566276C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W36E84FC821C1D5E1ABF5BCD9470@phx.gbl>

     Hear !  Hear !


cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//////////////////////////

> From: NT788 at comcast.net

> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:50:14 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering
>
> I have seen the enemy, it is us! Vote for Ron Paul






>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>
>
> > I suspect the outsourcing started because of the unions and that is why
they
> > lost. If you had to pay someone to install a left front wheel all day
every
> > day what do you think it is worth in the real world.. Not an estimation of
> > the worth of a person but an estimate of the task.. Farmers don't grow
crops
> > so the soil is able to support growing crops and not depleted aka dust
bowl
> > when corn and wheat used it all and corn is the most forgiving there..Our
> > great grand children will be happy about those..
> > Dave



> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Glen Barrett"
> > To: "Keith Turk" ; "Bryan Savage" ;
> > "List Land Speed"
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering
> >
> >
> > > Back when all of the outsourcing started the unions fought it and lost.
> > > Hell
> > > they pay the farmers to not grow crops so we can buy the same stuff out
of
> > > Mexico and let them cross the borders and steal from us and send the
money
> > > home. In aerospace they had parts built all over the world for the
planes
> > > and I assure you we got a lot of parts that needed hours of cleanup and
re
> > > work before they could be used. That same for cheap Jap cars and now
look
> > > they outsell all of the US cars.

> > > Done bitching  > > > Glen

_________________________________________________________________
Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista. + Windows Live.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 14 19:47:16 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:47:16 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering/Seriously NON LSR
In-Reply-To: <c92.1f9557ce.34bd377c@aol.com>
References: <c92.1f9557ce.34bd377c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W37AA9264526FBFD6222C7D9470@phx.gbl>

   GOOD points    BOB     well put


cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]


> From: BWANA343 at aol.com
> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:09:00 -0500
> To: dlodom at charter.net; land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering/Seriously NON LSR
>
> IMHO/FWIW
> The comments of most of the people on this list are mostly  from auto
> industry related experiences and observances of the past. These  pretty well
seem to
> mirror the US economy in general, regarding what we now call  outsourcing.
> I was getting pretty down on the future in general until the timely showing
> last night of the CNBC special on Warren Buffet, third richest man on earth
> and  a pretty neat guy to boot. What he said that was heartening is that in
his
> recent travels to China he observed they are already outsourcing labor to
> Viet Nam because the Chinese economy and standard of living has escalated
so
> rapidly.  I read a while ago that Japanese hourly auto labor has  been
higher
> than the US for a significant time but didn't think that the  Chinese, being
> both a Communist and Capitalistic nation would catch up this  fast.
> Anybody our age not notice how cheap stuff is that we actually paid more
for
> twenty years ago, mostly electronics and textiles? I am not a fan of foreign
> child labor/price fixing/crap products/Illegal Immigrants, BUT that aspect
of
> it  was part of the financial boom that came crashing down right along  with
> the Twin Towers. I feel we are on a downslope now, but it is fixable.
> Check out the Financial rebirth of Ireland, we must do what they did, Same
> problems, same solutions.
> Bob, oversimplifies?, W
> PS JACK !!!... Ron Paul wears a tinfoil skull cap
>
>
>
> **************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

_________________________________________________________________
Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people making a real difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 14 19:55:12 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:55:12 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <005201c8570c$4672c590$0500a8c0@brightstar>
References: <005201c8570c$4672c590$0500a8c0@brightstar>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W31C1C08706224275FE40BDD9470@phx.gbl>

     IMHO     David has just hit the issue SQUARE ON THE HEAD.    Point
blank.

     IMHO     GOD's curse on mankind is greed.

      I am convinced.

     What to do about it ?

     That's like asking  GOD "why"


cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"

          -------------------------- oooo ---------------------------

    Wise words from the ancients especially in light of today's 'troubles' :




    VULGAS VULT DECEPI     ( the (common) people wish to be deceived )



          -Phaedrus

ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
ccccccc

> From: mactem at mebtel.net
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:19:20 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering
>
> IMHO everyone involved, be it government, corporate management, union
> management, and workers of all levels, selfishly want, ask, demand more
> money for themselves without taking into account the consequences it has
> on the entire system.

   The system would have worked had management been more caring of the workers
    and consumers, and had the workers and unions been more able to see that
their jobs
    had a finite worth, and had the  consumers bought items that supported
their own
    instead of purchasing cheaper but ultimately more costly (to the whole
society) items.

   Individual selfishness is really to blame. Who taught us that ?

   David


_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008

From NT788 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 01:29:54 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:29:54 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering/Seriously NON LSR
Message-ID: <011520080829.15406.478C6F020009838900003C2E2212020784C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

That's very intellectual Doug, I'm impressed! Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Doug Anderson <boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com> 

> GOOD points BOB well put 
> 
> 
> cheers, "Dirt Track Doug" 
> 
> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] 
> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] 
> 
> 
> > From: BWANA343 at aol.com 
> > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:09:00 -0500 
> > To: dlodom at charter.net; land-speed at autox.team.net 
> > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] American Engineering/Seriously NON LSR 
> > 
> > IMHO/FWIW 
> > The comments of most of the people on this list are mostly from auto 
> > industry related experiences and observances of the past. These pretty well 
> seem to 
> > mirror the US economy in general, regarding what we now call outsourcing. 
> > I was getting pretty down on the future in general until the timely showing 
> > last night of the CNBC special on Warren Buffet, third richest man on earth 
> > and a pretty neat guy to boot. What he said that was heartening is that in 
> his 
> > recent travels to China he observed they are already outsourcing labor to 
> > Viet Nam because the Chinese economy and standard of living has escalated 
> so 
> > rapidly. I read a while ago that Japanese hourly auto labor has been 
> higher 
> > than the US for a significant time but didn't think that the Chinese, being 
> > both a Communist and Capitalistic nation would catch up this fast. 
> > Anybody our age not notice how cheap stuff is that we actually paid more 
> for 
> > twenty years ago, mostly electronics and textiles? I am not a fan of foreign 
> > child labor/price fixing/crap products/Illegal Immigrants, BUT that aspect 
> of 
> > it was part of the financial boom that came crashing down right along with 
> > the Twin Towers. I feel we are on a downslope now, but it is fixable. 
> > Check out the Financial rebirth of Ireland, we must do what they did, Same 
> > problems, same solutions. 
> > Bob, oversimplifies?, W 
> > PS JACK !!!... Ron Paul wears a tinfoil skull cap 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. 
> > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> > 
> > Land-speed mailing list 
> > 
> > You are subscribed as boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com 
> > 
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________ 
> Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people making a real difference. 
> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From NT788 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 01:36:33 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:36:33 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
Message-ID: <011520080836.19739.478C7091000B8EE500004D1B2212020784C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

I think it all started when the first fish swam ashore to beat his buddy to a piece of food. Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Mobley-Anderson" <mactem at mebtel.net> 

> IMHO everyone involved, be it government, corporate management, union 
> management, and workers of all levels, selfishly want, ask, demand more 
> money for themselves without taking into account the consequences it has 
> on the entire system. The system would have worked had management been 
> more caring of the workers and consumers, and had the workers and unions 
> been more able to see that their jobs had a finite worth, and had the 
> consumers bought items that supported their own instead of purchasing 
> cheaper but ultimately more costly (to the whole society) items. 
> Individual selfishness is really to blame. Who taught us that? 
> David 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From NT788 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 01:45:23 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:45:23 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
Message-ID: <011520080845.23686.478C72A30004FB8B00005C862212020784C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Well Bryan, who started those strikes management, or the workers? Who profited when the prices were raised to "cover" the increased wages? jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: DougOdom <dlodom at charter.net> 

> Bryan Savage wrote: 
> 
> >Well Wes, who agreed to all of those benefits? Management or Engineering? 
> > 
> >I remember back in the '40's and '50's, there were auto strikes that 
> >lasted months. 
> >By the '70's, management was caving in at the threat of a strike. 
> > 
> >A crazy way to run a business. 
> > 
> >Bryan 
> > 
> > 
> >In 1968 after Shelby American closed down I still had a friend that worked for 
> Ford. High Up. That was the year of a strike when they only struck one car maker 
> and the other companys would go along with what ever the settlement said. After 
> the settlement my friend told me " the UAW has just killed the american car 
> maker ". It would take years but there was no way a company could pay a growing 
> number of people more and more money for not producing a product and survive. I 
> know that every month GM sends checks to hundreds of retired workers that are 
> over 100 years old. Very sad but true. 
> > 
> > 
> Doug Odom in big ditch 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From jon at infodestruction.com  Tue Jan 15 06:03:30 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:03:30 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] American Engineering
In-Reply-To: <03b001c8570d$1980ec50$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
References: <005201c8570c$4672c590$0500a8c0@brightstar>
	<03b001c8570d$1980ec50$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <F2CAF58F-029C-48EA-8615-F711E3F74A96@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 14, 2008, at 7:25 PM, Keith Turk wrote:

Man I hate politic's but this just reeks...
K




I won't jump into the on-going debate, even though I'd be happy to  
offer my opinions.  But I'll say this -- and I've said this many  
times over the years:

I don't discuss politics, I don't discuss religion, and I NEVER tell  
a woman her baby is ugly!  These are arguments you can't win.

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Jan 15 09:39:39 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:39:39 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] ON Topic, No Political COntent,
 lol...Turbo and Mass Air Meter  Question
Message-ID: <478CE1CB.3070306@mayfco.com>

Any of you turbo guys out there running mass air flow meters on your 
b'ville cars... do you have any experience with how close to the turbo 
the maf can be for it to still function correctly? Some of my other 
email lists have indicated that 6 to 12 inches is appropriate, but what 
is the wide open throttle experience? This is a for a large turbo with a 
4 inch inlet and a 4 inch diameter maf.

mayf

From Rick at RBMotorsports.com  Tue Jan 15 10:06:18 2008
From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:06:18 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] ON Topic, No Political COntent,
 lol...Turbo  and Mass Air Meter  Question
References: <478CE1CB.3070306@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c85798$f2e15bc0$6501a8c0@Rick>

On the Merk when I used MAF it was about 10 inches from the 4 inch inlet of 
the turbo.  I didn't really think it means much.  Package dictated 
placement.
In 98 I switched to DFI and finally went faster....with few problems.  I 
understand your desire to actually measure air, but speed/load can be so 
much simpler...
Oh, I never was able to get info on the clip at 45PPM, but I think you are 
beyond that now.
I'm not shopping for a new system yet, but think I see the problems with BS 
system that I'm currently using.  When I go back to the boosted motor I 
think a new more capable system will be in order.

Rick

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>


> Any of you turbo guys out there running mass air flow meters on your
> b'ville cars... do you have any experience with how close to the turbo
> the maf can be for it to still function correctly? 

From Joetimney at dol.net  Tue Jan 15 12:32:11 2008
From: Joetimney at dol.net (Joe Timney)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:32:11 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Auction of Muscle Motorsports contents
Message-ID: <478D0A3B.3000508@dol.net>

Just got a call letting me know that Bob Gribble is retiring to Florida 
and on Friday they will be auctioning his shop.

Go to http://www.gavelauction.com/upcoming.htm for details.
joe

From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 18:34:20 2008
From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 01:34:20 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Is This Big?
Message-ID: <011620080134.17675.478D5F1C00075F470000450B22092299279C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>

One of my main men thinks it could be the bug we need.....
http://www.boston.com/cars/news/articles/2008/01/14/gm_buys_into_cellulose_based_ethanol/

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Jan 15 18:55:17 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:55:17 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] chat line
Message-ID: <01b501c857e2$ddfadd90$6401a8c0@Glens>

Chat line tonight

From saltfever at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 19:41:59 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:41:59 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <000001c857e9$5f14bc10$6501a8c0@dim8100>

A few days ago Ed mentioned how important Polar Moment (PM) was and felt a
car should be set up with a high polar moment. Jack also confirmed such a
configuration. With Jack's outstanding experience, a contrarian view of LOW
PM would be difficult to support.



However, I have been weighing this conflict of Low vs. High PM for a while
and would appreciate your thoughts. There is universal agreement, and no
question that the CG must be in front of the Center of Pressure (CP). That
provides aerodynamic stability. Any aero disturbance or road disturbance
will always have a tendency to correct back to the path the CG is following.
This is an inherently stable AERO configuration.



I wonder about High PM. As long as the car is traveling in a straight line,
neither Low nor High PM should make significant difference because the
controlling, stabilizing force is AERODYNAMIC stability. I know current
thinking is a high PM will resist an upsetting force. It is the Barbell
effect in that it takes a greater force to start a weight ROTATING the
farther out it is from the CG (or the heavier it is). However, the down-side
is that it takes just as great a force to stop the rotation and RETURN the
barbell back in-line. And that is the root problem. If a disturbance is
GREAT ENOUGH TO OVERCOME the built-in AERO stability, and start the barbell
revolving, then it may continue rotation, (i.e. a spin).



Even though a light barbell will react more easily to a yawing disturbance,
any correction will return it to a center-line position far easier than a
heavy barbell. And the important Aero Balance works far MORE EFFECTIVELY on
a light barbell. I can understand how a high PM car will feel less twitchy,
but is it really safer? Looking back at the banning of the rear-engine
modified roadsters, these were extremely high PM vehicles. They were also
widow-makers. -Elon

From neil at dbelltech.com  Tue Jan 15 19:53:53 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:53:53 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <000001c857e9$5f14bc10$6501a8c0@dim8100>
References: <000001c857e9$5f14bc10$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <035b01c857eb$07fecf90$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Elon;

I think the main point of having a high polar moment of inertia in an LSR
vehicle is to keep the car controllable. A low PM vehicle is great for
autocross and road racing as it can change direction fast. Once you lose it
in a mid-engine car it spins very quickly. This makes it difficult for the
driver to gather it up again

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Elon
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 7:42 PM
To: land-speed submit
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment

A few days ago Ed mentioned how important Polar Moment (PM) was and felt a
car should be set up with a high polar moment. Jack also confirmed such a
configuration. With Jack's outstanding experience, a contrarian view of LOW
PM would be difficult to support.



However, I have been weighing this conflict of Low vs. High PM for a while
and would appreciate your thoughts. There is universal agreement, and no
question that the CG must be in front of the Center of Pressure (CP). That
provides aerodynamic stability. Any aero disturbance or road disturbance
will always have a tendency to correct back to the path the CG is following.
This is an inherently stable AERO configuration.



I wonder about High PM. As long as the car is traveling in a straight line,
neither Low nor High PM should make significant difference because the
controlling, stabilizing force is AERODYNAMIC stability. I know current
thinking is a high PM will resist an upsetting force. It is the Barbell
effect in that it takes a greater force to start a weight ROTATING the
farther out it is from the CG (or the heavier it is). However, the down-side
is that it takes just as great a force to stop the rotation and RETURN the
barbell back in-line. And that is the root problem. If a disturbance is
GREAT ENOUGH TO OVERCOME the built-in AERO stability, and start the barbell
revolving, then it may continue rotation, (i.e. a spin).



Even though a light barbell will react more easily to a yawing disturbance,
any correction will return it to a center-line position far easier than a
heavy barbell. And the important Aero Balance works far MORE EFFECTIVELY on
a light barbell. I can understand how a high PM car will feel less twitchy,
but is it really safer? Looking back at the banning of the rear-engine
modified roadsters, these were extremely high PM vehicles. They were also
widow-makers. -Elon

From neil at dbelltech.com  Tue Jan 15 20:12:06 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:12:06 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Non- LSR
In-Reply-To: <478D0A3B.3000508@dol.net>
References: <478D0A3B.3000508@dol.net>
Message-ID: <036401c857ed$93619250$0200a8c0@DBTech>

List;

I recently read a very nice article about Hillary and I'll have to admit
that I had not been aware of how much Hillary had accomplished-- quite
remarkable, really-- certainly a person to admire.

Few people have reached such heights and done so much good for the poor.
Hillary's health care program has been successful as has the education
efforts.

So my hat's off to Hillary-- and Tenzing, too. (you didn't actually think I
was talking about....)

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From saltfever at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 20:45:28 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:45:28 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <035b01c857eb$07fecf90$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <000001c857f2$3e90d380$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Hi Neil. Good point, I understand the effect on controllability. I can see,
on a short wheel base, car how you would want to slow down the twitchiness!
However, some small coupes and sedans I see the ballast on the floor near
the driver instead of out back under the bumper. I wonder what is going
there? Maybe it is to get the CG substantially ahead of the CP. If you don't
have much room and the trade is CP vs. PM then I guess you have to opt for a
correct CP. -Elon

-----Original Message-----
From: neil at dbelltech.com [mailto:neil at dbelltech.com]
I think the main point of having a high polar moment of inertia in an LSR
vehicle is to keep the car controllable. A low PM vehicle is great for
autocross and road racing as it can change direction fast. Once you lose it
in a mid-engine car it spins very quickly. This makes it difficult for the
driver to gather it up again

From NT788 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 21:07:39 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:07:39 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

I agree with Neil! Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net> 

> Hi Neil. Good point, I understand the effect on controllability. I can see, 
> on a short wheel base, car how you would want to slow down the twitchiness! 
> However, some small coupes and sedans I see the ballast on the floor near 
> the driver instead of out back under the bumper. I wonder what is going 
> there? Maybe it is to get the CG substantially ahead of the CP. If you don't 
> have much room and the trade is CP vs. PM then I guess you have to opt for a 
> correct CP. -Elon 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: neil at dbelltech.com [mailto:neil at dbelltech.com] 
> I think the main point of having a high polar moment of inertia in an LSR 
> vehicle is to keep the car controllable. A low PM vehicle is great for 
> autocross and road racing as it can change direction fast. Once you lose it 
> in a mid-engine car it spins very quickly. This makes it difficult for the 
> driver to gather it up again 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From kturk at ala.net  Tue Jan 15 21:20:20 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:20:20 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

I put the ballast where it fits.... keep the car as equal as reasonable... 
and simply drive what we get.... maybe we are just lucky eh?

Hmmm

Keith ( in other words while interesting...racing and experience with a car 
will tell you what it wants ... ) 

From landspeed at columbus.rr.com  Tue Jan 15 23:03:13 2008
From: landspeed at columbus.rr.com (Don McMeekin)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 01:03:13 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
	<04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>

      In all honesty most of us probably do what Keith does regarding  
the placement of ballast. But personally I want people to think that  
its not that easy to get one of these things to go fast and straight.  
I have resorted to playing the "physics card" when the crowd begins  
to sense that just about anyone with a clue could do what I'm doing,  
or when someone asks a question that I can't answer. And when I  
really want to impress the fans, I make em think that its really  
complicated but I can do it without trying.
            Don
On Jan 15, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Keith Turk wrote:

> I put the ballast where it fits.... keep the car as equal as  
> reasonable...
> and simply drive what we get.... maybe we are just lucky eh?
>
> Hmmm
>
> Keith ( in other words while interesting...racing and experience  
> with a car
> will tell you what it wants ... )
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as landspeed at columbus.rr.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 00:20:29 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:20:29 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>

I mentioned polar moment mainly because deliberately moving the engine back
like they do to improve handling in road cars is really counterproductive in
most cases in our LSR cars.  But how much?   We're a long way from knowing
enough about the spin dynamics of an LSR vehicle to be able to put any
numbers on the various influencing factors. (that would be a NASA project)
Heck, we don't even have any real data on the aerodynamics of a car as the
front to rear axis of symetry on which the center of pressure (CP) sits
moves angularly (yaws) with respect to the direction in which it's
traveling.  (This would be an interesting wind tunnel experiment which I
suspect has been investigated for aircraft).

We only have the most general idea of where the CP is and especially how
fast it moves as the yaw angle increases.  Sure, on an arrow it goes right
back near the tail feathers and stays there as the angle increases.   But
howabout on Kieth's Camaro or an '86 Toyota Corolla or a  roadster with a
big flat grill shell.  I wonder how small you could go with scale models and
still get useful info.  Can any of you guys who really know something useful
about wind tunnel testing (I don't) comment on this scaling thing?

I wonder if some of the scale model body shapes available like to the RC
model builders are big enough to test in a small wind tunnel.  I even wonder
if this could be a sophisticated "garage project?  Anyone have some
engineering school contacts?  This could be a neat senior or graduate level
project for a mechanical engineering student or a group.

Ed Weldon .....uhhhh........off on the edge again.

From advo at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 07:15:55 2008
From: advo at comcast.net (Greg Meyers)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:15:55 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <C3B36DBB.BEC%advo@comcast.net>

Actually, I believe that the Wright brothers were making small models and
affixing them to the end of beams which were jutting forward from moving
vehicles (bicycles?...).  One of the problems though, will be the the fact
that with ground based vehicles, there is always the effect of the ground on
one side and sky on the other.  The MPG group has been discussing this
thread....
Greg
http://salt2salt.com
> 
> I wonder if some of the scale model body shapes available like to the RC
> model builders are big enough to test in a small wind tunnel.  I even wonder
> if this could be a sophisticated "garage project?  

From saltracer at awwwsome.com  Wed Jan 16 10:15:13 2008
From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:15:13 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
	<04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <478E3BA1.00000D.04460@D3DP98F1>

It is a lot easier to put the ballast where it should be then to repair the
car. My advice is to find a way to put at least 51% of the total weight on
the front axle. In some cases, more may be better.

Tom, Redding CA - 216 D/FCC

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_pets_cat1_en.gif]

From kturk at ala.net  Wed Jan 16 10:39:15 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:39:15 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<478E3BA1.00000D.04460@D3DP98F1>
Message-ID: <04cb01c85866$b8d3b5d0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

Tom while I agree with you in theory... the Berkeley wants most of it's 
weight on the back wheels....  why... I have no idea... but it does... 
doesn't show up like that in a wind tunnel... but there you go.... if the 
car ever spun... no doubt in my mind the back would come around....   But 
the intent is to try not to spin....

I know that sounds simplistic... but it's real...  car handles 
flawlessly....

The Camaro on the other hand wants more on the nose... like you we try and 
keep it 50/50 though for the first time this year we went to a bit more on 
the back... ( wasn't that slich how I didn't tell you how much? )...( seems 
there are 4 or 5 Camaro's out there ... just like mine...and I'm happy about 
that... but I don't have to tell them EVERYTHING )

Anyway.... Your mileage may vary.... it's just what I know...

Keith 

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan 16 10:51:33 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:51:33 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Ed;

I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design by
using a scale model in water instead of air. The drag effects, etc should
show up at quite low speeds in water compared to air since its density is
far higher. Granted, water isn't compressible like air but we're talking
about subsonic vehicles so this may be practical-- what do you think?

My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known angle
and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. The faster it
covers that distance, the lower the drag. The distance would need to be long
enough for the model to reach its terminal velocity. Make the model fairly
heavy to eliminate the buoyancy effects.

Jon might have to chip a hole in the ice, though :)

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Ed Weldon
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:20 AM
To: Don McMeekin; Keith Turk
Cc: 'land-speedsubmit'; Elon; NT788 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment


....I wonder if some of the scale model body shapes available like to the RC
model builders are big enough to test in a small wind tunnel.  I even wonder
if this could be a sophisticated "garage project?  Anyone have some
engineering school contacts?  This could be a neat senior or graduate level
project for a mechanical engineering student or a group.

Ed Weldon .....uhhhh........off on the edge again.

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan 16 11:03:17 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:03:17 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Non- LSR
In-Reply-To: <036401c857ed$93619250$0200a8c0@DBTech>
References: <478D0A3B.3000508@dol.net> <036401c857ed$93619250$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <03a801c8586a$12889de0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

OK, I guess this wasn't caught as tongue-in-cheek by many so I'll explain
it--

Sir Edmund Hillary died last Tuesday; he and his Sherpa, Tenzing Norgay,
were the first to climb Mt. Everest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Hillary

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ


-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
neil at dbelltech.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:12 PM
To: 'Land-speed List'
Subject: [Land-speed] Non- LSR

List;

I recently read a very nice article about Hillary and I'll have to admit
that I had not been aware of how much Hillary had accomplished-- quite
remarkable, really-- certainly a person to admire.

Few people have reached such heights and done so much good for the poor.
Hillary's health care program has been successful as has the education
efforts.

So my hat's off to Hillary-- and Tenzing, too. (you didn't actually think I
was talking about....)

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From NT788 at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 11:18:55 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:18:55 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Non- LSR
Message-ID: <011620081818.705.478E4A8F0007DCD2000002C12216551406C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

WHO DOESEN'T LIKE TAXING TIPS.

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com> 

> OK, I guess this wasn't caught as tongue-in-cheek by many so I'll explain 
> it-- 
> 
> Sir Edmund Hillary died last Tuesday; he and his Sherpa, Tenzing Norgay, 
> were the first to climb Mt. Everest. 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Hillary 
> 
> Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net 
> [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of 
> neil at dbelltech.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:12 PM 
> To: 'Land-speed List' 
> Subject: [Land-speed] Non- LSR 
> 
> List; 
> 
> I recently read a very nice article about Hillary and I'll have to admit 
> that I had not been aware of how much Hillary had accomplished-- quite 
> remarkable, really-- certainly a person to admire. 
> 
> Few people have reached such heights and done so much good for the poor. 
> Hillary's health care program has been successful as has the education 
> efforts. 
> 
> So my hat's off to Hillary-- and Tenzing, too. (you didn't actually think I 
> was talking about....) 
> 
> Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Jan 16 11:31:55 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:31:55 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <478E4D9B.3000407@mayfco.com>

Water tunnels are used a lot. So this idea seems good to me. But there 
are some issues to contend with. You need to do a dymnamic similitude 
analysis to determine the relationshipos between the water, air, mass, 
and time effects.  The Reynolds numbers come into play as do roughness 
factors etc. Now having said that it is a cool idea. How would you time 
the roll down the ramp? A second or two might mean a big difference in 
perceived performance.

mayf
neil at dbelltech.com wrote:

>Ed;
>
>I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design by
>using a scale model in water instead of air. The drag effects, etc should
>show up at quite low speeds in water compared to air since its density is
>far higher. Granted, water isn't compressible like air but we're talking
>about subsonic vehicles so this may be practical-- what do you think?
>
>My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
>Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known angle
>and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. The faster it
>covers that distance, the lower the drag. The distance would need to be long
>enough for the model to reach its terminal velocity. Make the model fairly
>heavy to eliminate the buoyancy effects.
>
>Jon might have to chip a hole in the ice, though :)
>
>Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
>Ed Weldon
>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:20 AM
>To: Don McMeekin; Keith Turk
>Cc: 'land-speedsubmit'; Elon; NT788 at comcast.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment
>
>
>....I wonder if some of the scale model body shapes available like to the RC
>model builders are big enough to test in a small wind tunnel.  I even wonder
>if this could be a sophisticated "garage project?  Anyone have some
>engineering school contacts?  This could be a neat senior or graduate level
>project for a mechanical engineering student or a group.
>
>Ed Weldon .....uhhhh........off on the edge again.
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan 16 11:48:33 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:48:33 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <478E4D9B.3000407@mayfco.com>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech> <478E4D9B.3000407@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <03ba01c85870$65713ac0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Mayf;

I'd go underwater with a diving mask and a stopwatch encased in a ZipLoc
bag. I suppose you could use a light- beam to do the timing if you wanted to
get fancy.

I think the most value from this hare- brained idea is to do comparative
tests on models-- just a "which one is better" kind of test.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 11:32 AM
To: neil at dbelltech.com
Cc: 'Ed Weldon'; 'Don McMeekin'; 'Keith Turk'; 'land-speedsubmit'; 'Elon';
NT788 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment

Water tunnels are used a lot. So this idea seems good to me. But there 
are some issues to contend with. You need to do a dymnamic similitude 
analysis to determine the relationshipos between the water, air, mass, 
and time effects.  The Reynolds numbers come into play as do roughness 
factors etc. Now having said that it is a cool idea. How would you time 
the roll down the ramp? A second or two might mean a big difference in 
perceived performance.

mayf
neil at dbelltech.com wrote:

>Ed;
>
>I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design by
>using a scale model in water instead of air. The drag effects, etc should
>show up at quite low speeds in water compared to air since its density is
>far higher. Granted, water isn't compressible like air but we're talking
>about subsonic vehicles so this may be practical-- what do you think?
>
>My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
>Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known angle
>and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. The faster it
>covers that distance, the lower the drag. The distance would need to be
long
>enough for the model to reach its terminal velocity. Make the model fairly
>heavy to eliminate the buoyancy effects.
>
>Jon might have to chip a hole in the ice, though :)
>
>Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
>Ed Weldon
>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:20 AM
>To: Don McMeekin; Keith Turk
>Cc: 'land-speedsubmit'; Elon; NT788 at comcast.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment
>
>
>....I wonder if some of the scale model body shapes available like to the
RC
>model builders are big enough to test in a small wind tunnel.  I even
wonder
>if this could be a sophisticated "garage project?  Anyone have some
>engineering school contacts?  This could be a neat senior or graduate level
>project for a mechanical engineering student or a group.
>
>Ed Weldon .....uhhhh........off on the edge again.
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 11:54:56 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:54:56 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <001a01c85871$4bbc27b0$6501a8c0@S>

Neil--
Water is mostly laminar flow.  Air is turbulent.  Big difference.
That said, it wouldn't be all that hard to pack a 1:25 model body with lead
wheel weights and mount the wheels on little free tunning bearings.
I think you'd want to close it up pretty tight so it wouldn't shed air
bubbles.  Maybe design the carriage with the wheels so the body can be
turned relative to direction of travel.  I'd look at using "G" scale model
train track (but cover the ties) and maybe cut up one of the trucks adding a
section between the axles to lengthen the wheelbase.  You have "sparky"
experience.   Can you contrive underwater sensors to signal the passing of
the model?  Otherwise refraction effects from ripples could upset the visual
ques for stopwatch work.
Ed
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: "'Ed Weldon'" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "'Don McMeekin'"
<landspeed at columbus.rr.com>; "'Keith Turk'" <kturk at ala.net>
Cc: "'land-speedsubmit'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>; "'Elon'"
<saltfever at comcast.net>; <NT788 at comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment
> I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design
by.....
> My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
> Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known
angle
> and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. ....
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From kturk at ala.net  Wed Jan 16 12:05:38 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:05:38 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
Message-ID: <04f701c85872$c9bb4af0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

I don't know if you guys have seen this yet... but I'll let you evaluate it...
on your own... below is the e-mail I sent both Louise and The other fella...
Here's the article...

http://yubanet.com:80/life/Supersonic_Woman_Wanted_for_Steve_Fossett_LSR_Team
.php

========================================================

Do you want to be the first team to kill a woman in Land speed racing?

Guys accepting a female candidate is one thing... advertising to garner funds
by using a female is Absolutely the stupidest thing I've ever heard of....

This is a SERIOUS mistake...  and I want to go on record as saying so...

Keith Turk
2 club Ace

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 12:10:39 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:10:39 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment or KTM vs the Salt
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech> <478E4D9B.3000407@mayfco.com>
	<03ba01c85870$65713ac0$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <002901c85873$801bad80$6501a8c0@S>

Knowledge, time and money (KTM).  Sprinkle enough of it on your LSR project
including a measure to overcome demon randomness and you'll accomplish a
reasonable goal.



OK, Mayf pretty well outlines the big engineering problem that we all
instinctively know requires NASA (or at least Ford Motor Co.) levels of KTM
to solve.  I think most of us prefer a simpler approach that provides useful
rules of thumb rather than a lot of heavy math.  Greg Myers' anecdote about
the Wright brothers describes the way a lot of us operate.  Singular
datapoints, experiences such as Kieth and Tom describe count for a lot, too.
Simple experiments like the swimming pool test Neil suggested.  (Only a
Southland guy would suggest that this time of year) (Or are we maybe
suggstion a new Speedweek event for the motel swimming pools?)



Personally I like my idea of conning someone else into doing the work to
their own as well as our benefit.  But if that fails? ...build a scale
moving surface wind tunnel.  Will 1:25 scale produce useful results?  There
are lots of cheap plastic car models in that scale.  Or maybe larger scale?
(uh-oh!!  KTM again....)



OK, let's see...here's things to go find:

1.  6" belt sander and some kind of variable speed motor to run it.

2.  an electric leaf blower

3.  A nice little linear bearing stage to mount the body on and transmit
aero forces to a spring scale with minimum friction drag

4.  A way to accurately measure RPM's of the sander rollers and 5. below
(smells like "M"; more on that later)

5. Tiny can motors like the model train guys use in their locomotives to
turn the car wheels to match the belt travel speed.

6.  K (knowledge) relative to building a small wind tunnel and application
of the scaling factors.

7.  some kind of smoke generator?

8.  Lots of cheap plywood

9.  what else?



Ed Weldon

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan 16 12:10:45 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:10:45 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <001a01c85871$4bbc27b0$6501a8c0@S>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<001a01c85871$4bbc27b0$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <03c301c85873$7fb87ee0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Ed;

There can be turbulent flow in water too-- look at a boat propeller.

A simple "beam breaker" system should suffice for timing-- it works for the
SCTA and NHRA. I wonder if a smooth ramp would simulate the ground effects?

Without a doubt you'd want to use ball- bearing wheels. Maybe you could
guide it down the ramp with a thin nylon monofilament fishing line and a
small eye hook. Of course if it doesn't run straight that would indicate a
problem with the shape.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Weldon [mailto:23.weldon at comcast.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 11:55 AM
To: neil at dbelltech.com; 'Don McMeekin'; 'Keith Turk'
Cc: 'land-speedsubmit'; 'Elon'; NT788 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment

Neil--
Water is mostly laminar flow.  Air is turbulent.  Big difference.
That said, it wouldn't be all that hard to pack a 1:25 model body with lead
wheel weights and mount the wheels on little free tunning bearings.
I think you'd want to close it up pretty tight so it wouldn't shed air
bubbles.  Maybe design the carriage with the wheels so the body can be
turned relative to direction of travel.  I'd look at using "G" scale model
train track (but cover the ties) and maybe cut up one of the trucks adding a
section between the axles to lengthen the wheelbase.  You have "sparky"
experience.   Can you contrive underwater sensors to signal the passing of
the model?  Otherwise refraction effects from ripples could upset the visual
ques for stopwatch work.
Ed
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: "'Ed Weldon'" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "'Don McMeekin'"
<landspeed at columbus.rr.com>; "'Keith Turk'" <kturk at ala.net>
Cc: "'land-speedsubmit'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>; "'Elon'"
<saltfever at comcast.net>; <NT788 at comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment
> I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design
by.....
> My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
> Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known
angle
> and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. ....
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Wed Jan 16 12:11:20 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:11:20 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment/now "coast down"
In-Reply-To: <03ba01c85870$65713ac0$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D1692A@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

OK, I have access to hills, but no water.  (a single digit morning is
warm, -3 degrees this morning - yes, I am the big baby.)

By "hills" I mean over the speed limit in less than a mile type hills.

Anything to be learned w/ coast down tests?

Do I want "time to speed" , "terminal speed", "coast distance" ???? (I
"think" I know how this shakes out, but some input from outside my head
would be appreciated.)

If one were to keep the speeds "legal" (sixty-ish) could anything be
learned?

David in Durango, with a few million other questions . . .

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 16 12:17:21 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:17:21 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com><000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <004501c85874$6bbedbe0$2101a8c0@WinXP>

Neil;

Interesting idea, you're talking about a "similitude" experiment--trying to 
get comparable results with different fluids (air & water).

But it would require using the analytical aerodynamic characteristics of a 
car, the air density and pressure, and calculating the Reynolds numbers, 
etc. at various speeds.  Then you would have to do the same thing for the 
small model and calculate those Reynolds numbers and other parameters for 
the motion in water and try to find conditions that give you the same 
Reynolds number in both water and air. This is the only way to know if the 
results would mean anything before doing all the work setting up the 
experiment.

If the right data were available for the full size car some trail similitude 
calculations for water could be done to see if it's at all feasible. Might 
need consider liquids other than water. Maybe Mayf has some Reynolds numbers 
that could be used as a starting point.

It's been a long, long time since I did any similitude calculations for 
fluid flow---we seem to generate a lot of interesting ideas for engineering 
student projects.

Lance

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>


> Ed;
>
> I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design by
> using a scale model in water instead of air. The drag effects, etc should
> show up at quite low speeds in water compared to air since its density is
> far higher. Granted, water isn't compressible like air but we're talking
> about subsonic vehicles so this may be practical-- what do you think?
>
> My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
> Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known 
> angle
> and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. The faster 
> it
> covers that distance, the lower the drag. The distance would need to be 
> long
> enough for the model to reach its terminal velocity. Make the model fairly
> heavy to eliminate the buoyancy effects.
>
> Jon might have to chip a hole in the ice, though :)
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan 16 12:14:25 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:14:25 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
In-Reply-To: <04f701c85872$c9bb4af0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
References: <04f701c85872$c9bb4af0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <03c401c85874$02a09c70$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Keith;

One would think that a team would have a driver lined up before they got
this far along in their project.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Keith Turk
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:06 PM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm

I don't know if you guys have seen this yet... but I'll let you evaluate
it...
on your own... below is the e-mail I sent both Louise and The other fella...
Here's the article...

http://yubanet.com:80/life/Supersonic_Woman_Wanted_for_Steve_Fossett_LSR_Tea
m
.php

========================================================

Do you want to be the first team to kill a woman in Land speed racing?

Guys accepting a female candidate is one thing... advertising to garner
funds
by using a female is Absolutely the stupidest thing I've ever heard of....

This is a SERIOUS mistake...  and I want to go on record as saying so...

Keith Turk
2 club Ace
_______________________________________________

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Jan 16 12:22:23 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:22:23 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <004501c85874$6bbedbe0$2101a8c0@WinXP>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com><000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<004501c85874$6bbedbe0$2101a8c0@WinXP>
Message-ID: <03c501c85875$1fd379b0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Lance;

You might be able to do this but just simple tests between two or more
shapes in the same medium (water) is more of what I had in mind.

Testing different ideas such as does a pointed nose have lower drag on my
car than a rounded one? Run the rounded model and then glue on a pointed
nose-- is it faster? Simple comparative tests that cost nearly nothing to
do-- if you have access to a pool.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: joseph lance [mailto:jolylance at earthlink.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:17 PM
To: neil at dbelltech.com; 'Ed Weldon'; 'Don McMeekin'; 'Keith Turk'
Cc: 'land-speedsubmit'; 'Elon'; NT788 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment

Neil;

Interesting idea, you're talking about a "similitude" experiment--trying to 
get comparable results with different fluids (air & water).

But it would require using the analytical aerodynamic characteristics of a 
car, the air density and pressure, and calculating the Reynolds numbers, 
etc. at various speeds.  Then you would have to do the same thing for the 
small model and calculate those Reynolds numbers and other parameters for 
the motion in water and try to find conditions that give you the same 
Reynolds number in both water and air. This is the only way to know if the 
results would mean anything before doing all the work setting up the 
experiment.

If the right data were available for the full size car some trail similitude

calculations for water could be done to see if it's at all feasible. Might 
need consider liquids other than water. Maybe Mayf has some Reynolds numbers

that could be used as a starting point.

It's been a long, long time since I did any similitude calculations for 
fluid flow---we seem to generate a lot of interesting ideas for engineering 
student projects.

Lance

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>


> Ed;
>
> I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design by
> using a scale model in water instead of air. The drag effects, etc should
> show up at quite low speeds in water compared to air since its density is
> far higher. Granted, water isn't compressible like air but we're talking
> about subsonic vehicles so this may be practical-- what do you think?
>
> My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
> Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known 
> angle
> and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. The faster 
> it
> covers that distance, the lower the drag. The distance would need to be 
> long
> enough for the model to reach its terminal velocity. Make the model fairly
> heavy to eliminate the buoyancy effects.
>
> Jon might have to chip a hole in the ice, though :)
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 12:24:29 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:24:29 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
References: <04f701c85872$c9bb4af0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <003201c85875$6dc5b2f0$6501a8c0@S>

C'mon Keith.  Cut Louise some slack.  I know she can be off track sometimes;
but I think she means well.
Still, I tend to agree with your position.  I kind of cringe at the term
"Supersonic Woman".  First thing you know they'll turn the words into their
trademark.   KTMMMMMMMMM.......... ugh
Ed
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 11:05 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm


> I don't know if you guys have seen this yet... but I'll let you evaluate
it...
> on your own... below is the e-mail I sent both Louise and The other
fella...
> Here's the article...
>
http://yubanet.com:80/life/Supersonic_Woman_Wanted_for_Steve_Fossett_LSR_Team
> .php
> Do you want to be the first team to kill a woman in Land speed racing?
> Guys accepting a female candidate is one thing... advertising to garner
funds
> by using a female is Absolutely the stupidest thing I've ever heard of....
> This is a SERIOUS mistake...  and I want to go on record as saying so...
> Keith Turk.... 2 club Ace

From ed at vetteracing.com  Wed Jan 16 12:26:37 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:26:37 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
Message-ID: <W1155611047122741200511597@webmail20>

I wish I could get the link to work......... 
Ed

>-----Original Message-----
>From: neil at dbelltech.com [mailto:neil at dbelltech.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:14 PM
>To: ''Keith Turk'', land-speed at autox.team.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
>
>Keith;
>
>One would think that a team would have a driver lined up before they got
>this far along in their project.
>
>Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
>Keith Turk
>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:06 PM
>To: land-speed at autox.team.net
>Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
>
>I don't know if you guys have seen this yet... but I'll let you evaluate
>it...
>on your own... below is the e-mail I sent both Louise and The other fella...
>Here's the article...
>
>http://yubanet.com:80/life/Supersonic_Woman_Wanted_for_Steve_Fossett_LSR_Tea
>m
>.php

From ed at vetteracing.com  Wed Jan 16 13:15:20 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:15:20 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
Message-ID: <W1430724343280061200514520@webmail35>

OK Keith, here's the "hook" on this scheme.....

"All driver candidates are required to bring sponsorship to the table along with their other qualifications."

Apparently they are not as interested in advancing the fairer sex's position in life as they are in lining their own pockets. 

Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder




>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: neil at dbelltech.com [mailto:neil at dbelltech.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:14 PM
>>To: ''Keith Turk'', land-speed at autox.team.net
>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
>>
>>Keith;
>>
>>One would think that a team would have a driver lined up before they got
>>this far along in their project.
>>
>>Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
>>Keith Turk
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:06 PM
>>To: land-speed at autox.team.net
>>Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
>>
>>I don't know if you guys have seen this yet... but I'll let you evaluate
>>it...
>>on your own... below is the e-mail I sent both Louise and The other fella...
>>Here's the article...
>>
>>http://yubanet.com:80/life/Supersonic_Woman_Wanted_for_Steve_Fossett_LSR_Tea
>>m
>>.php

From webmaster at landracing.com  Wed Jan 16 14:09:33 2008
From: webmaster at landracing.com (Jonathan Amo)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:09:33 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
In-Reply-To: <W1430724343280061200514520@webmail35>
References: <W1430724343280061200514520@webmail35>
Message-ID: <907D1C8EA27D4349A64F1D2D974702D1@JonPC>

If she has fake boobs, Im more concerned on what would happen to the 
implants going thru the sound barrier. Of course the bigger they are they 
could be like an air bag always deployed. I think they need to look at the 
porn industry for a candidate. I would sure help in picking out a 
candidate... Just think of the sponsorship involved there...  I mean they 
probably could bring a condom sponsor, or a super slick additive....

the team didn't come up with that on their own, that was a louise deal (in 
my opinion)....

I see that the candidate is Mandated to bring sponsorship to the table to be 
considered.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Van Scoy" <ed at vetteracing.com>
To: "Ed Van Scoy" <ed at vetteracing.com>; <neil at dbelltech.com>; "'KeithTurk'" 
<kturk at ala.net>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm


> OK Keith, here's the "hook" on this scheme.....
>
> "All driver candidates are required to bring sponsorship to the table 
> along with their other qualifications."
>
> Apparently they are not as interested in advancing the fairer sex's 
> position in life as they are in lining their own pockets.
>
> Ed Van Scoy
> #128 B/GT Corvette
> SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder
>
>
>
>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: neil at dbelltech.com [mailto:neil at dbelltech.com]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:14 PM
>>>To: ''Keith Turk'', land-speed at autox.team.net
>>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
>>>
>>>Keith;
>>>
>>>One would think that a team would have a driver lined up before they got
>>>this far along in their project.
>>>
>>>Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>>>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf 
>>>Of
>>>Keith Turk
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:06 PM
>>>To: land-speed at autox.team.net
>>>Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
>>>
>>>I don't know if you guys have seen this yet... but I'll let you evaluate
>>>it...
>>>on your own... below is the e-mail I sent both Louise and The other 
>>>fella...
>>>Here's the article...
>>>
>>>http://yubanet.com:80/life/Supersonic_Woman_Wanted_for_Steve_Fossett_LSR_Tea
>>>m
>>>.php
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
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>
> You are subscribed as webmaster at landracing.com
>
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From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 16 14:52:30 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:52:30 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
Message-ID: <12766807.1200520351193.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Ed got it.......$$$$'s
-----Original Message-----
>>OK Keith, here's the "hook" on this scheme.....
>
>"All driver candidates are required to bring sponsorship to the table along with their other qualifications."

From NT788 at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 16:47:04 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:47:04 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment/now "coast down"
Message-ID: <011620082347.7305.478E977700070EF300001C892212059214C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Ask a gardner with a leaf blower whats best (before they all get deported) Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Adin, David" <DavidAdin at mercydurango.org> 

> OK, I have access to hills, but no water. (a single digit morning is 
> warm, -3 degrees this morning - yes, I am the big baby.) 
> 
> By "hills" I mean over the speed limit in less than a mile type hills. 
> 
> Anything to be learned w/ coast down tests? 
> 
> Do I want "time to speed" , "terminal speed", "coast distance" ???? (I 
> "think" I know how this shakes out, but some input from outside my head 
> would be appreciated.) 
> 
> If one were to keep the speeds "legal" (sixty-ish) could anything be 
> learned? 
> 
> David in Durango, with a few million other questions . . . 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Jan 16 17:33:30 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:33:30 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment/now "coast down"
In-Reply-To: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D1692A@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
References: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D1692A@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
Message-ID: <88BFAAD575674446BDF39195B99E131D@DaveSatellite>

I would think a lot about Cd and nothing about polar moment might be 
learned.. If I got to pick a level road with a coast down would be the way 
to go possibly 70 to 40 sort of thing timed well..
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adin, David" <DavidAdin at mercydurango.org>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>
Cc: "land-speedsubmit" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment/now "coast down"


> OK, I have access to hills, but no water.  (a single digit morning is
> warm, -3 degrees this morning - yes, I am the big baby.)
>
> By "hills" I mean over the speed limit in less than a mile type hills.
>
> Anything to be learned w/ coast down tests?
>
> Do I want "time to speed" , "terminal speed", "coast distance" ???? (I
> "think" I know how this shakes out, but some input from outside my head
> would be appreciated.)
>
> If one were to keep the speeds "legal" (sixty-ish) could anything be
> learned?
>
> David in Durango, with a few million other questions . . .

From adin at frontier.net  Wed Jan 16 17:45:54 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (adin at frontier.net)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:45:54 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment/now "coast down"
In-Reply-To: <88BFAAD575674446BDF39195B99E131D@DaveSatellite>
References: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D1692A@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
	<88BFAAD575674446BDF39195B99E131D@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <20080116174554.k8rbz47ogkgkwwsc@webmail.brainstorminternet.net>

Good hint, thanks.


Quoting Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net>:

> I would think a lot about Cd and nothing about polar moment might be
> learned.. If I got to pick a level road with a coast down would be the way
> to go possibly 70 to 40 sort of thing timed well..
> Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adin, David" <DavidAdin at mercydurango.org>
> To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>
> Cc: "land-speedsubmit" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re: Polar Moment/now "coast down"
>
>
>> OK, I have access to hills, but no water.  (a single digit morning is
>> warm, -3 degrees this morning - yes, I am the big baby.)
>>
>> By "hills" I mean over the speed limit in less than a mile type hills.
>>
>> Anything to be learned w/ coast down tests?
>>
>> Do I want "time to speed" , "terminal speed", "coast distance" ???? (I
>> "think" I know how this shakes out, but some input from outside my head
>> would be appreciated.)
>>
>> If one were to keep the speeds "legal" (sixty-ish) could anything be
>> learned?
>>
>> David in Durango, with a few million other questions . . .
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 18:06:12 2008
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:06:12 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
Message-ID: <005401c858a5$27be2500$446b2544@john>

Lisa Nowak the astronaut and diaper driver is out on bail .



>I don't know if you guys have seen this yet... but I'll let you evaluate 
>it...
> on your own... below is the e-mail I sent both Louise and The other 
> fella...
> Here's the article...

From b.a.savage at wildblue.net  Wed Jan 16 18:16:08 2008
From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:16:08 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com>
	<000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <478EAC58.5020504@wildblue.net>

Smokey swore by water testing. He had a small stream behind his shop.
Bryan



neil at dbelltech.com wrote:
> Ed;
>
> I've often wondered if I could investigate the aerodynamics of a design by
> using a scale model in water instead of air. The drag effects, etc should
> show up at quite low speeds in water compared to air since its density is
> far higher. Granted, water isn't compressible like air but we're talking
> about subsonic vehicles so this may be practical-- what do you think?

From lsr1301 at dahmurf.com  Wed Jan 16 18:48:56 2008
From: lsr1301 at dahmurf.com (DahMurf)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:48:56 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
In-Reply-To: <907D1C8EA27D4349A64F1D2D974702D1@JonPC>
Message-ID: <PKEAJDAKJMECPJDGNLFLMEHDDPAA.lsr1301@dahmurf.com>

<snip>On Behalf Of Jonathan Amo...
If she has fake boobs, Im more concerned on what would happen to the 
implants going thru the sound barrier...</snip>

Too funny Jon!

I just can't help but wonder exactly what experience can one bring
to the table (other then money) to qualify to drive a vehicle to 
800mph! Seriously? Fighter pilot... ? what? Even if you successfully
made it to 300mph, 800mph is WAAYYYY the heck faster! G forces & on & on.

How can you build a vehicle to potentially go that fast and not already
have a pilot?

Strange... will be interesting to see what happens.

Deb
(back to lurk) 

From piggy at accessatc.net  Wed Jan 16 19:29:50 2008
From: piggy at accessatc.net (don thigpen)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:29:50 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net><04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><F456EDF3-9335-4C39-8CE4-A04B594C5B23@columbus.rr.com><000d01c85810$47c430a0$6501a8c0@S><03a701c85868$6f2b2240$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<478EAC58.5020504@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <010501c858b0$d5d39200$9a7f51d8@your4105e587b6>

small stream behind smokeys shop ?  that  " stream " is the intracoastal 
waterway !

when i was young my boss would take me with him on visits to that " best dam 
garage in town " i was in awe of smokey and he was a character to be sure .

don t
evo power & machine
www.accessatc.net/~piggy
www.snartracing.com
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM
DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS.

From kd5kzn at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jan 16 18:28:07 2008
From: kd5kzn at sbcglobal.net (Bow)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 01:28:07 -0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
In-Reply-To: <PKEAJDAKJMECPJDGNLFLMEHDDPAA.lsr1301@dahmurf.com>
Message-ID: <20080117023056.714761879E4@autox.team.net>

Well, I you recall, they HAD a driver/financial backer all lined up to go
and pilot the thing...

...but ironically, he seemed to have a bit of trouble with his 180 mph top
speed Bellanca Super Decathlon...


Bow




-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+kd5kzn=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+kd5kzn=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
DahMurf
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 01:49
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm

<snip>On Behalf Of Jonathan Amo...
If she has fake boobs, Im more concerned on what would happen to the
implants going thru the sound barrier...</snip>

Too funny Jon!

I just can't help but wonder exactly what experience can one bring to the
table (other then money) to qualify to drive a vehicle to 800mph! Seriously?
Fighter pilot... ? what? Even if you successfully made it to 300mph, 800mph
is WAAYYYY the heck faster! G forces & on & on.

How can you build a vehicle to potentially go that fast and not already have
a pilot?

Strange... will be interesting to see what happens.

Deb
(back to lurk)
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as kd5kzn at sbcglobal.net

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
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From lsr1301 at dahmurf.com  Wed Jan 16 20:56:36 2008
From: lsr1301 at dahmurf.com (DahMurf)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:56:36 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm
In-Reply-To: <20080117023056.714761879E4@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <PKEAJDAKJMECPJDGNLFLKEHFDPAA.lsr1301@dahmurf.com>

True, I had considered that but thinking of the phrase "all your eggs in one
basket" I guess I thought they may
have had a backup plan/driver. Maybe they did but the back-up plan lacked
the funds. Who knows. <shrug>

It's all foreign to me. Our team has too many pilots & not enough crew or
money! LOL
Deb
#1302 Twin Jugs Racing
-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+td=twinjugs.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+td=twinjugs.com at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Bow
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:28 PM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fossett Lsr camp... hmmm


Well, I you recall, they HAD a driver/financial backer all lined up to go
and pilot the thing...

...but ironically, he seemed to have a bit of trouble with his 180 mph top
speed Bellanca Super Decathlon...


Bow

From saltfever at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 21:10:54 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:10:54 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <000001c858be$f5e47600$6501a8c0@dim8100>

I want to offer sincere thanks to everyone that responded to my request. I
am overwhelmed with the number of responses (both public and private) within
a 4 hr period. I am now starting to work my way through them (8:00 pm
Wednesday). I am deeply grateful to pm received from respected names in our
sport. I never expected such help for a neophyte car-builder.  Every comment
is interesting and I may edit some and reply back to the list with a
question or thoughts I might have.  Thank you,  -Elon

From saltfever at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 00:05:11 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:05:11 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <478E4D9B.3000407@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000001c858d7$4e74a7a0$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Great idea, Neil. Even if you don't have a swimming pool you could use
something like 10"-12" irrigation PVC. Cap it at both ends and fill with
water. A single sawhorse in the back yard could set plane angle. I guess
diameter has to be big enough (or model small enough) to be free of side
wall influences. Ed's idea of a model railroad tract sounds interesting
glued into the bottom of the PVC pipe. Some of the current data loggers are
fairly inexpensive. Innovate's SSI-4 is $129. You could also record temp,
barometer (a MAP), etc.
I think Mayf has a LM-1 data logger for his O2 sensor. Maybe borrow his :-).
Sample rate is 12/sec. Instead using a light-beam underwater why not hook up
a string or piano wire to a used TPS sensor or other EFI sensor. $1-$5 used
from the wrecking yard.
-Elon

-----Original Message-----
(1)  drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
snip . . . How would you time the roll down the ramp? A second or two might
mean a big difference in perceived performance.

(2) neil at dbelltech.com wrote:
My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known angle
and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. . .

From NT788 at comcast.net  Wed Jan 16 17:22:28 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:22:28 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment or KTM vs the Salt
Message-ID: <011720080022.17265.478E9FC40004D020000043712212059214C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

I sometimes poke a pin in the bottom(cg) of a scale shape and blow air at it. On dusty ground might work also. Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> 

> Knowledge, time and money (KTM). Sprinkle enough of it on your LSR project 
> including a measure to overcome demon randomness and you'll accomplish a 
> reasonable goal. 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Mayf pretty well outlines the big engineering problem that we all 
> instinctively know requires NASA (or at least Ford Motor Co.) levels of KTM 
> to solve. I think most of us prefer a simpler approach that provides useful 
> rules of thumb rather than a lot of heavy math. Greg Myers' anecdote about 
> the Wright brothers describes the way a lot of us operate. Singular 
> datapoints, experiences such as Kieth and Tom describe count for a lot, too. 
> Simple experiments like the swimming pool test Neil suggested. (Only a 
> Southland guy would suggest that this time of year) (Or are we maybe 
> suggstion a new Speedweek event for the motel swimming pools?) 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I like my idea of conning someone else into doing the work to 
> their own as well as our benefit. But if that fails? ...build a scale 
> moving surface wind tunnel. Will 1:25 scale produce useful results? There 
> are lots of cheap plastic car models in that scale. Or maybe larger scale? 
> (uh-oh!! KTM again....) 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, let's see...here's things to go find: 
> 
> 1. 6" belt sander and some kind of variable speed motor to run it. 
> 
> 2. an electric leaf blower 
> 
> 3. A nice little linear bearing stage to mount the body on and transmit 
> aero forces to a spring scale with minimum friction drag 
> 
> 4. A way to accurately measure RPM's of the sander rollers and 5. below 
> (smells like "M"; more on that later) 
> 
> 5. Tiny can motors like the model train guys use in their locomotives to 
> turn the car wheels to match the belt travel speed. 
> 
> 6. K (knowledge) relative to building a small wind tunnel and application 
> of the scaling factors. 
> 
> 7. some kind of smoke generator? 
> 
> 8. Lots of cheap plywood 
> 
> 9. what else? 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed Weldon 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From NT788 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 09:37:37 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:37:37 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment or KTM vs the Salt
Message-ID: <011720081637.27488.478F84510009185700006B602216549976C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Ed you can buy smoke pellets at aircraft spruce. Other places too contact me for info Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: NT788 at comcast.net 

> I sometimes poke a pin in the bottom(cg) of a scale shape and blow air at it. On 
> dusty ground might work also. Jack 
> 
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
> From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net> 
> 
> > Knowledge, time and money (KTM). Sprinkle enough of it on your LSR project 
> > including a measure to overcome demon randomness and you'll accomplish a 
> > reasonable goal. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > OK, Mayf pretty well outlines the big engineering problem that we all 
> > instinctively know requires NASA (or at least Ford Motor Co.) levels of KTM 
> > to solve. I think most of us prefer a simpler approach that provides useful 
> > rules of thumb rather than a lot of heavy math. Greg Myers' anecdote about 
> > the Wright brothers describes the way a lot of us operate. Singular 
> > datapoints, experiences such as Kieth and Tom describe count for a lot, too. 
> > Simple experiments like the swimming pool test Neil suggested. (Only a 
> > Southland guy would suggest that this time of year) (Or are we maybe 
> > suggstion a new Speedweek event for the motel swimming pools?) 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Personally I like my idea of conning someone else into doing the work to 
> > their own as well as our benefit. But if that fails? ...build a scale 
> > moving surface wind tunnel. Will 1:25 scale produce useful results? There 
> > are lots of cheap plastic car models in that scale. Or maybe larger scale? 
> > (uh-oh!! KTM again....) 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > OK, let's see...here's things to go find: 
> > 
> > 1. 6" belt sander and some kind of variable speed motor to run it. 
> > 
> > 2. an electric leaf blower 
> > 
> > 3. A nice little linear bearing stage to mount the body on and transmit 
> > aero forces to a spring scale with minimum friction drag 
> > 
> > 4. A way to accurately measure RPM's of the sander rollers and 5. below 
> > (smells like "M"; more on that later) 
> > 
> > 5. Tiny can motors like the model train guys use in their locomotives to 
> > turn the car wheels to match the belt travel speed. 
> > 
> > 6. K (knowledge) relative to building a small wind tunnel and application 
> > of the scaling factors. 
> > 
> > 7. some kind of smoke generator? 
> > 
> > 8. Lots of cheap plywood 
> > 
> > 9. what else? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Ed Weldon 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> > 
> > Land-speed mailing list 
> > 
> > You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> > 
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From neil at dbelltech.com  Thu Jan 17 09:49:39 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:49:39 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <000001c858d7$4e74a7a0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
References: <478E4D9B.3000407@mayfco.com>
	<000001c858d7$4e74a7a0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <046601c85928$f3adb2b0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Elon;

That might work. The TPS sensor would need a big pulley to keep its rotation
angle within limits. With a big pulley the drag of the TPS sensor might not
be to much of a factor.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elon [mailto:saltfever at comcast.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:05 AM
To: drmayf at mayfco.com; neil at dbelltech.com
Cc: 'Ed Weldon'; 'Don McMeekin'; 'Keith Turk'; 'land-speedsubmit';
NT788 at comcast.net
Subject: Polar Moment

Great idea, Neil. Even if you don't have a swimming pool you could use
something like 10"-12" irrigation PVC. Cap it at both ends and fill with
water. A single sawhorse in the back yard could set plane angle. I guess
diameter has to be big enough (or model small enough) to be free of side
wall influences. Ed's idea of a model railroad tract sounds interesting
glued into the bottom of the PVC pipe. Some of the current data loggers are
fairly inexpensive. Innovate's SSI-4 is $129. You could also record temp,
barometer (a MAP), etc.    
I think Mayf has a LM-1 data logger for his O2 sensor. Maybe borrow his :-).
Sample rate is 12/sec. Instead using a light-beam underwater why not hook up
a string or piano wire to a used TPS sensor or other EFI sensor. $1-$5 used
from the wrecking yard.  
-Elon

-----Original Message-----
(1)  drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] 
snip . . . How would you time the roll down the ramp? A second or two might
mean a big difference in perceived performance.

(2) neil at dbelltech.com wrote:
My idea is to do the drag measurements with a minimum of instrumentation.
Simply build a smooth ramp and place it in a swimming pool at a known angle
and let the model roll down the ramp for a measured distance. . . 

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 09:49:56 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:49:56 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
Message-ID: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com>

The chit chat about aero using leaf blowers etc has reminded me that I 
need to get a leaf blower to do some testing with. Not aero but mass air 
flow sensor testing. I want to stack up 2 vane air flow meters and one 
old fors mass air flow meter and a throttle body in one long string and 
then draw through them with a leaf blower or similar. More flow is 
better so a big leaf blowere would work really well. What I am having 
trouble with is getting ratings in cfm...every mfg has mph but since I 
don't know the duct size cannot determine the cfm from that. How about 
some of you hguys with leaf blowers, take a look at teh speed rating and 
then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can 
determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model. This 
is all in support of adding a larger vane air flow meter to the 
screaming 61 cubic inches of turbo terror that my wife will ultimately 
drive on the salt. No rush, anythime this morning befpore 9 am pst will 
do, lol...nah I'd be happy to get data from you at anytime.

mayf

From NT788 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 10:06:10 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:06:10 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <011720081706.9046.478F8B020000338C000023562216557996C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Elon   Caster when turned creats a diagonal weight bias ie right turn loads r.f and l.r. very bad with a locked rear end!Wheels steer best when all four both touch the ground equally"lsr." Weight on front wheels steering. weight on rear wheels traction, weight in the middle a deficit. Note how little steering it takes to change lanes at 60mph! A lot of caster = steer-correct- steer-correct-steer-spin! A lot of castor would work good rock climbing!    jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net> 

I thought caster had a self-centering effect?  Are you saying putting as much weight through the center of the contact patch is better than the caster-effect?  IOW, caster moves the weight forward of the contact patch. . . and that is not good?  Very interesting, Jack :-)
  -Elon 

-----Original Message-----
From: NT788 at comcast.net [mailto:NT788 at comcast.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 10:01 AM
To: Elon
Subject: Re: Polar Moment

Minimal caster might help. Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net> 
That is a good point, Jack. But on a car as long as yours the rate of spin is not that same as a 98 Monza.   The length of wheel base slows things down as well, so I am wondering if polar moment is as critical as it would be on a 98 car?  -Elon

-----Original Message-----
From: NT788 at comcast.net  
Hi Elon   Skaters--arms out,slow spin, arms in, fast spin. Jack

From piggy at accessatc.net  Thu Jan 17 10:33:34 2008
From: piggy at accessatc.net (don thigpen)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:33:34 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
References: <011720081706.9046.478F8B020000338C000023562216557996C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <004c01c8592f$15b15fa0$9a7f51d8@your4105e587b6>

 A lot of caster = steer-correct- steer-correct-steer-spin! A lot of castor 
would work good rock climbing!    jack

you mean i have had this all wrong for the last 45 years ?  oh you are 
talking about negative caster ? hmmmmmmmmm ............... positive caster 
makes a vehicle tend to stay in a straight line dont it ? and dont positive 
caster put the weight behind the contact patch ?

wow , i am confused now ..... but then i am old and easily confused !

don t
evo power & machine
www.accessatc.net/~piggy
www.snartracing.com
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM
DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS.

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 11:05:32 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:05:32 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>

Mayf--
Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label.
Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows:  Measures length and
width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68"
Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's bench
vise to .34" thickness.
Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression.  Put clay on platen of
flatbed copier and printed b/w image.  Verified image against two
measurements previously taken.  Measured area of image with a K&E 4236
planimeter.  Result read from the vernier with magnification.
Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008,  10:00 AM PST

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...


> The chit chat about aero using leaf blowers etc has reminded me that I
> need to get a leaf blower to do some testing with. Not aero but mass air
> flow sensor testing. I want to stack up 2 vane air flow meters and one
> old fors mass air flow meter and a throttle body in one long string and
> then draw through them with a leaf blower or similar. More flow is
> better so a big leaf blowere would work really well. What I am having
> trouble with is getting ratings in cfm...every mfg has mph but since I
> don't know the duct size cannot determine the cfm from that. How about
> some of you hguys with leaf blowers, take a look at teh speed rating and
> then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can
> determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model. This
> is all in support of adding a larger vane air flow meter to the
> screaming 61 cubic inches of turbo terror that my wife will ultimately
> drive on the salt. No rush, anythime this morning befpore 9 am pst will
> do, lol...nah I'd be happy to get data from you at anytime.
>
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as 23.weldon at comcast.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 11:26:56 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:26:56 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw:  Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
Message-ID: <000401c85936$8d01f180$6501a8c0@S>

Fwd with edits.  EW
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...


> Mayf--
> Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label.
> Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows:  Measures length and
> width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68"
> Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's
bench
> vise to .34" thickness.
> Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression.  Put clay on platen of
> flatbed copier and printed b/w image.  Verified image against two
> measurements previously taken.  Measured area of image with a K&E 4236
> planimeter.  Result read from the vernier with magnification.
> Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008,  10:00 AM PST
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
> To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:49 AM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
> ....... How about
> > some of you guys with leaf blowers, take a look at the speed rating and
> > then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can
> > determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model.
> > mayf

From NT788 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 10:54:29 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:54:29 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <011720081754.29200.478F9654000F012B000072102216557996C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Hi Don     Caster is an old fashioned notion, old rails had alot, they didn't understand bump steer. IE 10' drag link with 4" control arms. In "63 I welded my rails axle to the frame. They said I had to have suspention to run, they allowed a test run, I won! Although ---people have done opposite my sugestions and had success! Talking about positive ---  negative now thats a thought! _thanks jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "don thigpen" <piggy at accessatc.net> 

> A lot of caster = steer-correct- steer-correct-steer-spin! A lot of castor 
> would work good rock climbing! jack 
> 
> you mean i have had this all wrong for the last 45 years ? oh you are 
> talking about negative caster ? hmmmmmmmmm ............... positive caster 
> makes a vehicle tend to stay in a straight line dont it ? and dont positive 
> caster put the weight behind the contact patch ? 
> 
> wow , i am confused now ..... but then i am old and easily confused ! 
> 
> don t 
> evo power & machine 
> www.accessatc.net/~piggy 
> www.snartracing.com 
> SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR 
> ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM 
> DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS. 

From NT788 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 11:53:41 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:53:41 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <011720081853.6764.478FA4350006FB4A00001A6C2216548686C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

 O deg in 7070,5050,8080,3deg 988 788 all go straight Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "don thigpen" <piggy at accessatc.net> 

oh , i understand bump steer entirely and it is a matter of where you put the steering elements of the front end more than anything , along with the range of travel of the spindle . but ........  camber also has a lot to do with it .  THE WHOLE THING HAS TO BE  WORK TOGETHER 

i can assure you that if you put zero or negative caster in a steering spindle then you aint gonna keep it on any road ( unless that road is as wide as the U S  ) ........... try it and report back to us , no fear about crashing as you wont be able to get up to any kind of speed with negative caster

don t
evo power & machine
www.accessatc.net/~piggy
www.snartracing.com
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM
DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS. 

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Thu Jan 17 12:15:09 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:15:09 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
Message-ID: <d5c.191d92f7.34c1033d@aol.com>

Mayf--
I had a lawn maintenance business for over 20 years as a sideline. The most  
powerful leaf blower was and I believe still is the Red Max 8000. The only  
proper measurement for efficiency is CFM. The Red Max goes for around $500. I've 
 had a succession of this outfits blowers for years and had no problem  with 
them. 
They advertise over 800 CFM, and I'd say it's probable.
AND, you could do "sucker car " experiments.
Bob, likes 2 strokes, W



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From piggy at accessatc.net  Thu Jan 17 11:07:05 2008
From: piggy at accessatc.net (don thigpen)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:07:05 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
References: <011720081754.29200.478F9654000F012B000072102216557996C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <006601c85933$c4873aa0$9a7f51d8@your4105e587b6>

oh , i understand bump steer entirely and it is a matter of where you put the
steering elements of the front end more than anything , along with the range
of travel of the spindle . but ........  camber also has a lot to do with it .
THE WHOLE THING HAS TO BE  WORK TOGETHER

i can assure you that if you put zero or negative caster in a steering spindle
then you aint gonna keep it on any road ( unless that road is as wide as the U
S  ) ........... try it and report back to us , no fear about crashing as you
wont be able to get up to any kind of speed with negative caster

don t
evo power & machine
www.accessatc.net/~piggy
www.snartracing.com
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM
DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS.

From karhu at california.com  Thu Jan 17 13:15:07 2008
From: karhu at california.com (Benn)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:15:07 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com> <001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <000201c85945$a7b3c0d0$6801a8c0@BennsDesktop>

Geez Ed, you didn't use a gps-enhanced coordinate axis measuring machine 
with a MathCad program to calculate the area?
Benn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...


> Mayf--
> Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label.
> Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows:  Measures length and
> width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68"
> Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's 
> bench
> vise to .34" thickness.
> Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression.  Put clay on platen of
> flatbed copier and printed b/w image.  Verified image against two
> measurements previously taken.  Measured area of image with a K&E 4236
> planimeter.  Result read from the vernier with magnification.
> Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008,  10:00 AM PST
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
> To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:49 AM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>
>
>> The chit chat about aero using leaf blowers etc has reminded me that I
>> need to get a leaf blower to do some testing with. Not aero but mass air
>> flow sensor testing. I want to stack up 2 vane air flow meters and one
>> old fors mass air flow meter and a throttle body in one long string and
>> then draw through them with a leaf blower or similar. More flow is
>> better so a big leaf blowere would work really well. What I am having
>> trouble with is getting ratings in cfm...every mfg has mph but since I
>> don't know the duct size cannot determine the cfm from that. How about
>> some of you hguys with leaf blowers, take a look at teh speed rating and
>> then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can
>> determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model. This
>> is all in support of adding a larger vane air flow meter to the
>> screaming 61 cubic inches of turbo terror that my wife will ultimately
>> drive on the salt. No rush, anythime this morning befpore 9 am pst will
>> do, lol...nah I'd be happy to get data from you at anytime.
>>
>> mayf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> Land-speed mailing list
>>
>> You are subscribed as 23.weldon at comcast.net
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as karhu at california.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 15:02:03 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:02:03 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Not LSR-New NHRA qualifying rules
Message-ID: <979528F7-304A-4CBF-883D-4AFA728D89A9@comcast.net>

http://www.sema.org/Main/ArticleDetail.aspx?fc_c=1078821x2277777x56786965&contentID=58940

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 16:46:42 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:46:42 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <004c01c8592f$15b15fa0$9a7f51d8@your4105e587b6>
References: <011720081706.9046.478F8B020000338C000023562216557996C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
	<004c01c8592f$15b15fa0$9a7f51d8@your4105e587b6>
Message-ID: <478FE8E2.6040903@mayfco.com>

Well, Don, I agree with you, lol!  I have about 16 degrees in my SUnbeam 
and it is pretty much a light steering control car. When I managed to 
spin it this October due to other issues, I found the wheel always 
trying to steer into the skid and self correct itself. I was pleased 
with teh outcome. Had I had less caster I think I would have done the 
special Ed Van Scoy 360 degree braking maneuver. As it was, I didn't run 
over the chuite tow  line and it didn't wrap around my neck. Oh and I 
have a locked rear end to boot! The key I think is getting the car in 
correct alignment.

mayf
don thigpen wrote:

> A lot of caster = steer-correct- steer-correct-steer-spin! A lot of castor 
>would work good rock climbing!    jack
>
>you mean i have had this all wrong for the last 45 years ?  oh you are 
>talking about negative caster ? hmmmmmmmmm ............... positive caster 
>makes a vehicle tend to stay in a straight line dont it ? and dont positive 
>caster put the weight behind the contact patch ?
>
>wow , i am confused now ..... but then i am old and easily confused !
>
>don t
>evo power & machine
>www.accessatc.net/~piggy
>www.snartracing.com
>SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
>ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM
>DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS.
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 16:48:51 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:48:51 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
In-Reply-To: <001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com> <001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <478FE963.1030903@mayfco.com>

With all that verification of cross sectional area, I should at least 
have 6 or seven significant digits, lol...

Thanks
'
mayfEd Weldon wrote:

>Mayf--
>Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label.
>Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows:  Measures length and
>width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68"
>Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's bench
>vise to .34" thickness.
>Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression.  Put clay on platen of
>flatbed copier and printed b/w image.  Verified image against two
>measurements previously taken.  Measured area of image with a K&E 4236
>planimeter.  Result read from the vernier with magnification.
>Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008,  10:00 AM PST
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
>To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:49 AM
>Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>
>
>  
>
>>The chit chat about aero using leaf blowers etc has reminded me that I
>>need to get a leaf blower to do some testing with. Not aero but mass air
>>flow sensor testing. I want to stack up 2 vane air flow meters and one
>>old fors mass air flow meter and a throttle body in one long string and
>>then draw through them with a leaf blower or similar. More flow is
>>better so a big leaf blowere would work really well. What I am having
>>trouble with is getting ratings in cfm...every mfg has mph but since I
>>don't know the duct size cannot determine the cfm from that. How about
>>some of you hguys with leaf blowers, take a look at teh speed rating and
>>then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can
>>determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model. This
>>is all in support of adding a larger vane air flow meter to the
>>screaming 61 cubic inches of turbo terror that my wife will ultimately
>>drive on the salt. No rush, anythime this morning befpore 9 am pst will
>>do, lol...nah I'd be happy to get data from you at anytime.
>>
>>mayf
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>Land-speed mailing list
>>
>>You are subscribed as 23.weldon at comcast.net
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ed at vetteracing.com  Thu Jan 17 17:37:35 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:37:35 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <W1642015989276921200616655@webmail14>

Actually Mayf, it was a 900 degree "maneuver"..... Idid n't run over my chute
either.... In fact, if it had come out in the first place, Iwouldn't have had
to pitch the car ;-) (shoulda just run over theatvs and dirt bikes at the end
of the track..... )
Ed

>-----Original Message-----
>From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 04:46 PM
>To: 'don thigpen'
>Cc: land-speed at autox.team, 'Elon', NT788 at comcast.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
>
>Well, Don, I agree with you, lol! I have about 16 degrees in my SUnbeam
>and it is pretty much a light steering control car. When I managed to
>spin it this October due to other issues, I found the wheel always
>trying to steer into the skid and self correct itself. I was pleased
>with teh outcome. Had I had less caster I think I would have done the
>special Ed Van Scoy 360 degree braking maneuver. As it was, I didn't run
>over the chuite tow line and it didn't wrap around my neck. Oh and I
>have a locked rear end to boot! The key I think is getting the car in
>correct alignment.
>
>mayf
>don thigpen wrote:
>
>> A lot of caster = steer-correct- steer-correct-steer-spin! A lot of castor
>>would work good rock climbing! jack
>>
>>you mean i have had this all wrong for the last 45 years ? oh you are
>>talking about negative caster ? hmmmmmmmmm ............... positive caster
>>makes a vehicle tend to stay in a straight line dont it ? and dont positive
>>caster put the weight behind the contact patch ?
>>
>>wow , i am confused now ..... but then i am old and easily confused !
>>
>>don t
>>evo power & machine
>>www.accessatc.net/~piggy
>>www.snartracing.com
>>SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
>>ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 17:55:59 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:55:59 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
In-Reply-To: <d5c.191d92f7.34c1033d@aol.com>
References: <d5c.191d92f7.34c1033d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <478FF91F.2080208@mayfco.com>

I was hoping for something in the <50 buck range, lol. And what the heck 
is a "sucker car" experiment?

mayf
BWANA343 at aol.com wrote:

> Mayf--
> I had a lawn maintenance business for over 20 years as a sideline. The 
> most powerful leaf blower was and I believe still is the Red Max 8000. 
> The only proper measurement for efficiency is CFM. The Red Max goes 
> for around $500. I've had a succession of this outfits blowers for 
> years and had no problem with them.
> They advertise over 800 CFM, and I'd say it's probable.
> AND, you could do "sucker car " experiments.
> Bob, likes 2 strokes, W
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape 
> <http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489> 
> in the new year.

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 18:07:48 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:07:48 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
In-Reply-To: <001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com> <001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com>

Ed, as I mentioned before, thanks for th einfo. It looks like a leaf 
blower wont hack it...but lemme check the numbers here...

215 mph = 215 * 88 /60 * 60    ft/min   = 18.920 ft/min. If I multiply 
the cross section in sq ft that would give me cfm...

18920 * 2.41 / 1728) = 26.38 cfm...

bummer. Somehow or another I had my head up my anal orifice and was 
thinking it would be much larger than that. So now I gotta look for a 
bigger "sucker".  Maybe that idea about vacuum cleaner motors wasn't 
such a bad idea after all! Or an old 471 rootes blower hooked to an 
electric motor... this is getting too complicated, lol..

mayf
Ed Weldon wrote:

>Mayf--
>Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label.
>Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows:  Measures length and
>width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68"
>Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's bench
>vise to .34" thickness.
>Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression.  Put clay on platen of
>flatbed copier and printed b/w image.  Verified image against two
>measurements previously taken.  Measured area of image with a K&E 4236
>planimeter.  Result read from the vernier with magnification.
>Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008,  10:00 AM PST
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
>To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:49 AM
>Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>
>
>  
>
>>The chit chat about aero using leaf blowers etc has reminded me that I
>>need to get a leaf blower to do some testing with. Not aero but mass air
>>flow sensor testing. I want to stack up 2 vane air flow meters and one
>>old fors mass air flow meter and a throttle body in one long string and
>>then draw through them with a leaf blower or similar. More flow is
>>better so a big leaf blowere would work really well. What I am having
>>trouble with is getting ratings in cfm...every mfg has mph but since I
>>don't know the duct size cannot determine the cfm from that. How about
>>some of you hguys with leaf blowers, take a look at teh speed rating and
>>then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can
>>determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model. This
>>is all in support of adding a larger vane air flow meter to the
>>screaming 61 cubic inches of turbo terror that my wife will ultimately
>>drive on the salt. No rush, anythime this morning befpore 9 am pst will
>>do, lol...nah I'd be happy to get data from you at anytime.
>>
>>mayf
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>Land-speed mailing list
>>
>>You are subscribed as 23.weldon at comcast.net
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From neil at dbelltech.com  Thu Jan 17 18:15:19 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:15:19 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
In-Reply-To: <478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com>
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com>
	<001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S> <478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <04ba01c8596f$97811440$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Mayf;

Weren't your units in feet one place and inches in another? Maybe I missed
the ft/in conversion?

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
drmayf
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:08 PM
To: Ed Weldon
Cc: LSR
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...

Ed, as I mentioned before, thanks for th einfo. It looks like a leaf 
blower wont hack it...but lemme check the numbers here...

215 mph = 215 * 88 /60 * 60    ft/min   = 18.920 ft/min. If I multiply 
the cross section in sq ft that would give me cfm...

18920 * 2.41 / 1728) = 26.38 cfm...

bummer. Somehow or another I had my head up my anal orifice and was 
thinking it would be much larger than that. So now I gotta look for a 
bigger "sucker".  Maybe that idea about vacuum cleaner motors wasn't 
such a bad idea after all! Or an old 471 rootes blower hooked to an 
electric motor... this is getting too complicated, lol..

mayf
Ed Weldon wrote:

>Mayf--
>Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label.
>Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows:  Measures length and
>width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68"
>Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's
bench
>vise to .34" thickness.
>Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression.  Put clay on platen of
>flatbed copier and printed b/w image.  Verified image against two
>measurements previously taken.  Measured area of image with a K&E 4236
>planimeter.  Result read from the vernier with magnification.
>Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008,  10:00 AM PST
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
>To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:49 AM
>Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>
>
>  
>
>>The chit chat about aero using leaf blowers etc has reminded me that I
>>need to get a leaf blower to do some testing with. Not aero but mass air
>>flow sensor testing. I want to stack up 2 vane air flow meters and one
>>old fors mass air flow meter and a throttle body in one long string and
>>then draw through them with a leaf blower or similar. More flow is
>>better so a big leaf blowere would work really well. What I am having
>>trouble with is getting ratings in cfm...every mfg has mph but since I
>>don't know the duct size cannot determine the cfm from that. How about
>>some of you hguys with leaf blowers, take a look at teh speed rating and
>>then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can
>>determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model. This
>>is all in support of adding a larger vane air flow meter to the
>>screaming 61 cubic inches of turbo terror that my wife will ultimately
>>drive on the salt. No rush, anythime this morning befpore 9 am pst will
>>do, lol...nah I'd be happy to get data from you at anytime.
>>
>>mayf

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 17 18:23:15 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:23:15 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
References: <011720081853.6764.478FA4350006FB4A00001A6C2216548686C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <004c01c85970$b37493b0$2101a8c0@WinXP>

If I remember correctly, some American auto manufacturers (in the 1950s or 
thereabouts) went to zero or negative caster to reduce low speed steering 
effort (before power steering) with those nose heavy front ends. Then, when 
they went to power steering they kept the negative caster specs---that's why 
GM cars of that era handled so poorly.

Lance

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <NT788 at comcast.net>
To: "don thigpen" <piggy at accessatc.net>; "land-speed at autox.team" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>; "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Polar Moment


> O deg in 7070,5050,8080,3deg 988 788 all go straight Jack
>
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
> From: "don thigpen" <piggy at accessatc.net>
>
> oh , i understand bump steer entirely and it is a matter of where you put 
> the steering elements of the front end more than anything , along with the 
> range of travel of the spindle . but ........  camber also has a lot to do 
> with it .  THE WHOLE THING HAS TO BE  WORK TOGETHER
>
> i can assure you that if you put zero or negative caster in a steering 
> spindle then you aint gonna keep it on any road ( unless that road is as 
> wide as the U S  ) ........... try it and report back to us , no fear 
> about crashing as you wont be able to get up to any kind of speed with 
> negative caster
>
> don t
> evo power & machine
> www.accessatc.net/~piggy
> www.snartracing.com

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 18:28:04 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:28:04 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <W1642015989276921200616655@webmail14>
References: <W1642015989276921200616655@webmail14>
Message-ID: <479000A4.1010207@mayfco.com>

Oh! I was just quoting you on one of your emails to me..now the truth 
comes out, lol.  In my instance, when I pulled the chute, I moved my had 
back to the steering wheel expecting the small lurch..instead Igot a 
whiplash from side to side for what seems like forever!  It all had to 
do with the location of the rear end... man, have I fixed that!

mayf
Ed Van Scoy wrote:

> Actually Mayf, it was a 900 degree "maneuver"..... I did n't run over 
> my chute either.... In fact, if it had come out in the first place, I 
> wouldn't have had to pitch the car ;-)  (shoulda just run over the 
> atvs and dirt bikes at the end of the track..... )
> Ed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 18:36:00 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:36:00 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
In-Reply-To: <04ba01c8596f$97811440$0200a8c0@DBTech>
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com>
	<001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S> <478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com>
	<04ba01c8596f$97811440$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <47900280.102@mayfco.com>

yup, screwed up. I had square inches and then divided that by cubic 
inches instead of sq inches per sq ft

should have been     18920 (ft/min) * 2.41 (sq inches) / 144 (sq 
inches/sq ft)   only a factor of 12 off. Heck that was good enough for 
the space station, lol...

so the real cfm is about 316 cfm   much better. And I could use 2 of 
them in parallel to get > than 500 cfm.

good catch...

mayf
neil at dbelltech.com wrote:

>Mayf;
>
>Weren't your units in feet one place and inches in another? Maybe I missed
>the ft/in conversion?
>
>Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
>drmayf
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:08 PM
>To: Ed Weldon
>Cc: LSR
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>
>Ed, as I mentioned before, thanks for th einfo. It looks like a leaf 
>blower wont hack it...but lemme check the numbers here...
>
>215 mph = 215 * 88 /60 * 60    ft/min   = 18.920 ft/min. If I multiply 
>the cross section in sq ft that would give me cfm...
>
>18920 * 2.41 / 1728) = 26.38 cfm...
>
>bummer. Somehow or another I had my head up my anal orifice and was 
>thinking it would be much larger than that. So now I gotta look for a 
>bigger "sucker".  Maybe that idea about vacuum cleaner motors wasn't 
>such a bad idea after all! Or an old 471 rootes blower hooked to an 
>electric motor... this is getting too complicated, lol..
>
>mayf
>Ed Weldon wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Mayf--
>>Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label.
>>Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows:  Measures length and
>>width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68"
>>Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's
>>    
>>
>bench
>  
>
>>vise to .34" thickness.
>>Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression.  Put clay on platen of
>>flatbed copier and printed b/w image.  Verified image against two
>>measurements previously taken.  Measured area of image with a K&E 4236
>>planimeter.  Result read from the vernier with magnification.
>>Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008,  10:00 AM PST

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 17 18:51:57 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:51:57 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] ...Leaf Blower...
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com>
	<001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S> <478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <007501c85974$b6718330$2101a8c0@WinXP>

Hold on !!

215 MPH x 5280 ft/mile x hour/60 minutes = 18,920 ft/min or 315 ft/sec.

2.41 in2 x ft2 /144 in2 = 0.0167 sq feet.

18,920 ft/min x 0.0167 sq feet = 317 cfm

Just a thought---if anybody uses a leaf blower for flow experiments, it 
might be a good idea to put a flow straighter on the exit of the leaf blower 
to take out any swirl or flow asymmetry---maybe a fairly open cross section 
grid ( maybe 0.25 inch squares ?) about an inch or so deep.

Lance

--------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
Cc: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...


> Ed, as I mentioned before, thanks for th einfo. It looks like a leaf
> blower wont hack it...but lemme check the numbers here...
>
> 215 mph = 215 * 88 /60 * 60    ft/min   = 18.920 ft/min. If I multiply
> the cross section in sq ft that would give me cfm...
>
> 18920 * 2.41 / 1728) = 26.38 cfm...
>
> bummer. Somehow or another I had my head up my anal orifice and was
> thinking it would be much larger than that. So now I gotta look for a
> bigger "sucker".  Maybe that idea about vacuum cleaner motors wasn't
> such a bad idea after all! Or an old 471 rootes blower hooked to an
> electric motor... this is getting too complicated, lol..
>
> mayf

From gary_ellen at msn.com  Thu Jan 17 18:48:15 2008
From: gary_ellen at msn.com (Ellen Wilkinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:48:15 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com><001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com><04ba01c8596f$97811440$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<47900280.102@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV5771C7B634EE0D444B45FF9420@phx.gbl>

Used swamp cooler, Kestrel 4100,  and a hand full of pulleys er sheathes?
Gary W
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: drmayf<mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com>
  To: neil at dbelltech.com<mailto:neil at dbelltech.com>
  Cc: 'LSR'<mailto:land-speed at autox.team.net>
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...



  so the real cfm is about 316 cfm   much better. And I could use 2 of
  them in parallel to get > than 500 cfm.

  good catch...

  mayf



  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed<http://autox.team.net/mai
lman/listinfo/land-speed>

From ed at vetteracing.com  Thu Jan 17 19:30:53 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:30:53 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <W2338220483268571200623453@webmail14>

And... I have 50 feet of line on my chute, which gives me plenty of time to "get a grip" before it hits. 

Ed Van Scoy
#128 B/GT Corvette
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder


>-----Original Message-----
>From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 06:28 PM
>To: 'Ed Van Scoy'
>Cc: 'don thigpen', land-speed at autox.team, 'Elon', NT788 at comcast.net
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
>
>Oh! I was just quoting you on one of your emails to me..now the truth 
>comes out, lol. In my instance, when I pulled the chute, I moved my had 
>back to the steering wheel expecting the small lurch..instead Igot a 
>whiplash from side to side for what seems like forever! It all had to 
>do with the location of the rear end... man, have I fixed that!
>
>mayf
>Ed Van Scoy wrote:
>
>> Actually Mayf, it was a 900 degree "maneuver"..... I did n't run over 
>> my chute either.... In fact, if it had come out in the first place, I 
>> wouldn't have had to pitch the car ;-) (shoulda just run over the 
>> atvs and dirt bikes at the end of the track..... )
>> Ed

From ed at vetteracing.com  Thu Jan 17 19:32:09 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:32:09 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
Message-ID: <W2348812561280951200623529@webmail14>

Hard to get one by Neil ;-)
Ed

>-----Original Message-----
>From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 06:36 PM
>To: neil at dbelltech.com
>Cc: ''LSR''
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>
>yup, screwed up. I had square inches and then divided that by cubic 
>inches instead of sq inches per sq ft
>
>should have been 18920 (ft/min) * 2.41 (sq inches) / 144 (sq 
>inches/sq ft) only a factor of 12 off. Heck that was good enough for 
>the space station, lol...
>
>so the real cfm is about 316 cfm much better. And I could use 2 of 
>them in parallel to get > than 500 cfm.
>
>good catch...
>
>mayf
>neil at dbelltech.com wrote:
>
>>Mayf;
>>
>>Weren't your units in feet one place and inches in another? Maybe I missed
>>the ft/in conversion?
>>
>>Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
>>drmayf
>>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:08 PM
>>To: Ed Weldon
>>Cc: LSR
>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>>
>>Ed, as I mentioned before, thanks for th einfo. It looks like a leaf 
>>blower wont hack it...but lemme check the numbers here...
>>
>>215 mph = 215 * 88 /60 * 60 ft/min = 18.920 ft/min. If I multiply 
>>the cross section in sq ft that would give me cfm...
>>
>>18920 * 2.41 / 1728) = 26.38 cfm...
>>
>>bummer. Somehow or another I had my head up my anal orifice and was 
>>thinking it would be much larger than that. So now I gotta look for a 
>>bigger "sucker". Maybe that idea about vacuum cleaner motors wasn't 
>>such a bad idea after all! Or an old 471 rootes blower hooked to an 
>>electric motor... this is getting too complicated, lol..
>>
>>mayf
>>Ed Weldon wrote:

From NT788 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 19:36:57 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:36:57 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
Message-ID: <011820080236.15080.479010C9000C3C4A00003AE82215551724C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

My model51591 El Toro Didn't work  good until I took off the EPA speed control And replaced it with a "God Forbid "toggle switch! Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com> 

> With all that verification of cross sectional area, I should at least 
> have 6 or seven significant digits, lol... 
> 
> Thanks 
> ' 
> mayfEd Weldon wrote: 
> 
> >Mayf-- 
> >Toro Super Blower model 51591 (2 speed) "215mph" on the label. 
> >Outlet area 2.41 square inches measured as follows: Measures length and 
> >width of approx. oval nozzle 1.11" x 2.68" 
> >Flattened a lump of modeling clay after warming same in a woodworker's bench 
> >vise to .34" thickness. 
> >Pressed nozzle into clay to get crisp impression. Put clay on platen of 
> >flatbed copier and printed b/w image. Verified image against two 
> >measurements previously taken. Measured area of image with a K&E 4236 
> >planimeter. Result read from the vernier with magnification. 
> >Ed Weldon Jan. 17, 2008, 10:00 AM PST 
> > 
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "drmayf" 
> >To: "LSR" 
> >Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:49 AM 
> >Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower... 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >>The chit chat about aero using leaf blowers etc has reminded me that I 
> >>need to get a leaf blower to do some testing with. Not aero but mass air 
> >>flow sensor testing. I want to stack up 2 vane air flow meters and one 
> >>old fors mass air flow meter and a throttle body in one long string and 
> >>then draw through them with a leaf blower or similar. More flow is 
> >>better so a big leaf blowere would work really well. What I am having 
> >>trouble with is getting ratings in cfm...every mfg has mph but since I 
> >>don't know the duct size cannot determine the cfm from that. How about 
> >>some of you hguys with leaf blowers, take a look at teh speed rating and 
> >>then measure the outlet size diameter and shoot me a note that way I can 
> >>determine the cfm and maybe start looking for a particular model. This 
> >>is all in support of adding a larger vane air flow meter to the 
> >>screaming 61 cubic inches of turbo terror that my wife will ultimately 
> >>drive on the salt. No rush, anythime this morning befpore 9 am pst will 
> >>do, lol...nah I'd be happy to get data from you at anytime. 
> >> 
> >>mayf 
> >>_______________________________________________ 
> >>Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> >> 
> >>Land-speed mailing list 
> >> 
> >>You are subscribed as 23.weldon at comcast.net 
> >> 
> >>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 20:55:02 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:55:02 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com>
	<001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S> <478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com>
	<04ba01c8596f$97811440$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <002701c85986$4dbfbc00$6501a8c0@S>

Arrrrgh.....I keep telling you freshmen to pay attention to units when you
solve your problems and quit thinking about that pretty girl who just laughs
at you. Lord have mercy!!  Someday you'll be designing bridges and boilers
and who knows what else that'll fall down or blow up.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'Ed Weldon'" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
Cc: "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...


> Mayf;
> Weren't your units in feet one place and inches in another? Maybe I missed
> the ft/in conversion?
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 17 21:32:00 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:32:00 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
References: <478F8734.7010206@mayfco.com><001f01c85933$8ff150a0$6501a8c0@S>
	<478FFBE4.3090802@mayfco.com><04ba01c8596f$97811440$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<002701c85986$4dbfbc00$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <000301c8598b$181dee00$2101a8c0@WinXP>

Ed;

You're absolutely right---you always need to carry the units and do rough 
order of magnitude checks.

I think the useful life of analytical design methods is about thirty years 
tops, by then the built in limiting assumptions are forgotten and exceeded 
and even new things break or explode*. Now the units and assumptions are 
buried in the design software and are invisible. We lost a $150M Martian 
spacecraft because of a unit conversion mistake--what's next ?

But it's still nice to see a pretty girl laugh.

Lance

* If an EXplosion sounds like BOOM!!, does an IMplosion sound like MOOB!! ? 
(sorry about that, it's getting very late for me)

----------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: <neil at dbelltech.com>; <drmayf at mayfco.com>
Cc: "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...


> Arrrrgh.....I keep telling you freshmen to pay attention to units when you
> solve your problems and quit thinking about that pretty girl who just 
> laughs
> at you. Lord have mercy!!  Someday you'll be designing bridges and boilers
> and who knows what else that'll fall down or blow up.
> Ed Weldon

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 17 21:39:56 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:39:56 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] NON LSR but Good Advice
Message-ID: <000601c8598c$33bdcf30$2101a8c0@WinXP>

A letter from a Man's advice column


Dear Walter:

I hope you can help me here. The other day I set off for work leaving my
husband in the house watching the TV as usual. I hadn't gone more than a mile
down the road when my engine conked out and the car shuddered to a halt. I
walked back home to get my husband's help.
When I got home I couldn't believe my eyes. He was in the bedroom with a
neighbor lady making mad passionate love to her. I am 32, my husband is 34 and
we have been married for twelve years. When I confronted him, he broke down
and admitted that he'd been having an affair for the past six months.

I told him to stop or I would leave him. He was let go from his job six months
ago and he says he has been feeling increasingly depressed and worthless. I
love him very much, but ever since I gave him the ultimatum he has become
increasingly distant. I don't feel I can get through to him anymore.

Can you please help?

Sincerely,

Mrs.. Sheila Usk



Dear Sheila:

A car stalling after being driven a short distance can be caused by a variety
of faults with the engine. Start by checking that there is no debris in the
fuel line. If it is clear, check the jubilee clips holding the vacuum pipes
onto the inlet manifold. If none of these approaches solves the problem, it
could be that the fuel pump itself is faulty, causing low delivery pressure to
the carburetor float chamber.

I hope this helps.

Walter

From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 22:44:44 2008
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:44:44 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <000d01c85995$3b8b8e60$446b2544@john>

Jack

Not if the scrub radius is zero .

John



> Elon   Caster when turned creats a diagonal weight bias ie right turn 
> loads r.f and l.r. very >bad with a locked rear end!Wheels steer best when 
> all four both touch the ground >equally"lsr." Weight on front wheels 
> steering. weight on rear wheels traction, weight in the >middle a deficit. 
> Note how little steering it takes to change lanes at 60mph! A lot of 
> caster >= steer-correct- steer-correct-steer-spin! A lot of castor would 
> work good rock >climbing!    jack

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 17 23:17:00 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:17:00 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <W2338220483268571200623453@webmail14>
References: <W2338220483268571200623453@webmail14>
Message-ID: <4790445C.7030208@mayfco.com>

 My tow is about 40 ft or so. That gives me a couple of seconds to grip 
the wheel plenty of time. And my chute never hits like a ton of bricks 
but you go faster thanme, lol.. Every body goes faster than me!

mayf

Ed Van Scoy wrote:

> And... I have 50 feet of line on my chute, which gives me plenty of 
> time to "get a grip" before it hits.
>
> Ed Van Scoy
> #128 B/GT Corvette
> SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinder
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 06:28 PM
> >To: 'Ed Van Scoy'
> >Cc: 'don thigpen', land-speed at autox.team, 'Elon', NT788 at comcast.net
> >Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
> >
> >Oh! I was just quoting you on one of your emails to me..now the truth
> >comes out, lol. In my instance, when I pulled the chute, I moved my had
> >back to the steering wheel expecting the small lurch..instead Igot a
> >whiplash from side to side for what seems like forever! It all had to
> >do with the location of the rear end... man, have I fixed that!
> >
> >mayf
> >Ed Van Scoy wrote:
> >
> >> Actually Mayf, it was a 900 degree "maneuver"..... I did n't run over
> >> my chute either.... In fact, if it had come out in the first place, I
> >> wouldn't have had to pitch the car ;-) (shoulda just run over the
> >> atvs and dirt bikes at the end of the track..... )
> >> Ed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Thu Jan 17 23:42:20 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:42:20 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
References: <011820080236.15080.479010C9000C3C4A00003AE82215551724C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
	<479044A4.10804@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c8599d$4eb743f0$6501a8c0@S>

Data point here:  I'm on my 2nd 51591.  Cooked the motor on the first one
after 10 months. Good warranty.
I always run them on high speed.  Lotsa doug fir needles and such.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: <NT788 at comcast.net>
Cc: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
> Jeeze, I love it...Jack is now hot rodding the leaf blower!
 > mayf

> NT788 at comcast.net wrote:
> > My model51591 El Toro Didn't work  good until I took off the EPA speed
> > control And replaced it with a "God Forbid "toggle switch! Jack

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 08:01:45 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:01:45 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
Message-ID: <cbf.1e3073db.34c21959@aol.com>

A few more bits of tech re; The Blower
Redmax EBZ8000
24.9 lbs
943 cfm !!!!
203 mph
$570.00 (at my  nearest dealer)...Discounts probably now during off season.
Bob W





**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Fri Jan 18 08:48:54 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:48:54 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] landracing.com
Message-ID: <004c01c859e9$b36c2440$6401a8c0@Glens>

Seems as Jon's web site for LSR forums has crashed. There is a message on the
front page.Auto repair failed and Jon is working to make a fix.

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Fri Jan 18 11:13:44 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:13:44 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment---Scrub radius--weight Jacking
In-Reply-To: <000d01c85995$3b8b8e60$446b2544@john>
References: <000d01c85995$3b8b8e60$446b2544@john>
Message-ID: <2FE2650EE03E4D2CA8DE3BAD45A5F096@LMS>

new hubs, in the process---with old wheels with more offsett---working 
toward ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Sparky
AA/_ L  2211
Gear Grinder-SCTA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Burk" <joyseydevil at comcast.net>
To: "LandSpeed List" <Land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Polar Moment

From Sparky.2211 at cox.net  Fri Jan 18 11:37:13 2008
From: Sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky.2211)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:37:13 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment---what the car wants
In-Reply-To: <04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
References: <011620080407.5529.478D830B000D692C000015992216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
	<04af01c857f7$1ccf85c0$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <9C2F8D5C6F4D43519E14502C8A384907@LMS>

> Keith ( in other words while interesting...racing and experience with a 
> car
> will tell you what it wants ... )

GEEZ but that may take awhile---
> _______________________________________________

From zoombot at cox.net  Fri Jan 18 12:21:21 2008
From: zoombot at cox.net (Pile,Chris)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:21:21 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] The Propster Lives!
Message-ID: <001601c85a07$4f342ef0$76f8cd48@HomePC>

    List -

    I have no idea if Franklin saw this on eBay - but he would want it for
sure!

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=18020769438
8#ebayphotohosting

    Chris Pile aka aircap

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 12:38:38 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:38:38 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] landracing.com
Message-ID: <cf5.1e84f470.34c25a3e@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/18/2008 10:51:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
speedtimer at beyondbb.com writes:

Seems as  Jon's web site for LSR forums has crashed. There is a message on the
front  page.Auto repair failed and Jon is working to make a  fix.


Mebbe his LapTop needs to be Amo-Lubed or Marfak'd. Remember Marfak ?
Bob, full service, W



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From neil at dbelltech.com  Fri Jan 18 13:12:13 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:12:13 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
In-Reply-To: <W2348812561280951200623529@webmail14>
References: <W2348812561280951200623529@webmail14>
Message-ID: <04f601c85a0e$6a6e3ab0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Nahh, you just caught me on a good day....

 

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

  _____  

From: Ed Van Scoy [mailto:ed at vetteracing.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:32 PM
To: drmayf at mayfco.com; neil at dbelltech.com
Cc: 'LSR'
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...

 

Hard to get one by Neil ;-)
Ed

>-----Original Message-----
>From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 06:36 PM
>To: neil at dbelltech.com
>Cc: ''LSR''
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>
>yup, screwed up. I had square inches and then divided that by cubic 
>inches instead of sq inches per sq ft
>
>should have been 18920 (ft/min) * 2.41 (sq inches) / 144 (sq 
>inches/sq ft) only a factor of 12 off. Heck that was good enough for 
>the space station, lol...
>
>so the real cfm is about 316 cfm much better. And I could use 2 of 
>them in parallel to get > than 500 cfm.
>
>good catch...
>
>mayf
>neil at dbelltech.com wrote:
>
>>Mayf;
>>
>>Weren't your units in feet one place and inches in another? Maybe I missed
>>the ft/in conversion?
>>
>>Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
>>[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
>>drmayf
>>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:08 PM
>>To: Ed Weldon
>>Cc: LSR
>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Sorta On Topic...Leaf Blower...
>>
>>Ed, as I mentioned before, thanks for th einfo. It looks like a leaf 
>>blower wont hack it...but lemme check the numbers here...
>>
>>215 mph = 215 * 88 /60 * 60 ft/min = 18.920 ft/min. If I multiply 
>>the cross section in sq ft that would give me cfm...
>>
>>18920 * 2.41 / 1728) = 26.38 cfm...
>>
>>bummer. Somehow or another I had my head up my anal orifice and was 
>>thinking it would be much larger than that. So now I gotta look for a 
>>bigger "sucker". Maybe that idea about vacuum cleaner motors wasn't 
>>such a bad idea after all! Or an old 471 rootes blower hooked to an 
>>electric motor... this is getting too complicated, lol..
>>
>>mayf
>>Ed Weldon wrote:

From dlodom at charter.net  Fri Jan 18 14:14:34 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:14:34 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] TV  Barrett-Jackson
Message-ID: <479116BA.8010206@charter.net>

Does anyone know when this Barrett-Jackson BS will be over? Every time I 
switch over to the Speed channel it is on. Even reruns of nascar races 
are better than watching a bunch of morons that could not build a car 
with anything but a checkbook. Stuck in my shop cleaning and nothing on 
TV or radio but Obama or Monica's ex boyfriends wife.     Doug Odom in 
big ditch

From Want1937hd at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 14:45:36 2008
From: Want1937hd at aol.com (Want1937hd at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:45:36 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] TV  Barrett-Jackson
Message-ID: <c5a.23f55805.34c27800@aol.com>

BJBS is on till Midnite Eastern Time Friday and the same Saturday I believe. 
I'm playing the Fantisy Bid contest and got as close as $2,000. on one car, 
everythine else is selling under my bids. Beverly Hillbillies Olds truck is up 
next, wish me luck. Bob in connecticut



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From Want1937hd at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 14:53:43 2008
From: Want1937hd at aol.com (Want1937hd at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:53:43 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] TV  Barrett-Jackson
Message-ID: <d18.1ea2755e.34c279e7@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/18/08 4:46:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Want1937hd at aol.com writes:

Beverly Hillbillies Olds truck is up 
next, wish me luck. Bob in connecticut

Lost another! Truck sold for $125,000.00 one of 5 George Barris built for the 
TV show, my FANTASY bid was $67,000. Bob in connecticut



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From ifixmgs at cox.net  Fri Jan 18 19:11:01 2008
From: ifixmgs at cox.net (ifixmgs at cox.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:11:01 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] TV  Barrett-Jackson
In-Reply-To: <479116BA.8010206@charter.net>
Message-ID: <20080118211101.599FQ.43732.root@eastrmwml27.mgt.cox.net>

Doug 
The writer's strike drags on, but this scab is  bustin' the line to the keyboard.....
-  I'm with you all the way on Barrett Jackson. I watched for a while this evening only because my lucky-ass'ed brother in law was on stage bidding on a jukebox  409 powered Imp ragtop with an overly done electric blue paint job. He must have  finally heard me screaming  at him to get out of it before he actually had to write the big check and  drive it three miles back to his house in Cave Creek only to suffer from buyers remorse and wife-rage. 
- ESPN has been airing re-runs of NHRA old national meets, and I've stockpiled a goodly  supply of PowerBlock on TIVO, although,  with the possible exception of Muscle Car, it's turning into a bigger infomercial than Two Idiots Garage.  
 How about NOPI Vision? It's a lot  like reading Playboy - watch it strictly for the racing, and channel surf while the NOPI chicks are on stage..... that's my story and I'm sticking to it....   
- So., is  there   any discernable  difference between Hillary, Obama  and old NASCAR  races?   All three go hard to the left,  charge way too much for lousy food,  and  no matter how many times they run, the race is a big yawn, and the outcome's exactly the same...  
And, before I go, as if anyone's  still reading this stuff....
- How  can you  possibly inisinuate that Bob "Excuse me, Steve, but could you teach me something about cars real quick before we  go to the break" Varsha,  an erudite,  self-professed  all-American car guy, an   Eli  with a foreign language degree and clean nails, a guy  who started out as a lawyer  and  moved right into big-time "racing"  (as the voice of the Boston and NY marathons...)   couldn't build a car without a checkbook?  Come, now. 
- It's common knowledge in the Phoenix underground that  his   clone,  Alain deCaternay, didn't make it this year because he's on sabatical overseeing a killer build car WITHOUT resorting to a checkbook, having cashed  in a pound of Kruggerands to get the job done on time and exactly on budget.   
-    I'd love to see thought bubbles over Magnante's head saying what he REALLY  thinks of the questions that get tossed his way....   
Nite-all   
time to hit the shop and split the tractor in half  for a lousy $40 clutch disk.... 
Mark C
 > 
> Land-speed mailing list
> 
> You are subscribed as ifixmgs at cox.net
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From dwarner230 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 18 20:28:24 2008
From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:28:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] The Propster Lives!
In-Reply-To: <001601c85a07$4f342ef0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
Message-ID: <711028.20362.qm@web52506.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

No, won't work.
   
  That car is too well designed and finished for him. It proably works too.
   
  DW
"Pile,Chris" <zoombot at cox.net> wrote:
  List -

I have no idea if Franklin saw this on eBay - but he would want it for
sure!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=18020769438
8#ebayphotohosting

Chris Pile aka aircap
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed


       
---------------------------------
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From dwarner230 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 18 20:38:56 2008
From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:38:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] TV  Barrett-Jackson
In-Reply-To: <479116BA.8010206@charter.net>
Message-ID: <251567.45553.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Doug,
   
  The current edition ends Sunday night. There will be many hours of reruns and recaps. There will be footage tuned into 1 hour shows. There will be a complete rerun of all 39 hours just prior to the 2009 edition. Oh yeah, there will shorter live coverage of Palm Beach and Las Vegas later this year.
   
  You want racing? Not the channel for you.
   
  On another note - a Tony Stewart 2007, winning cup car went for $300K. I thought we were told that these would be cheap and plentiful race cars and we must have a Bonneville class for the hundreds of new heros.
   
  I also like Smoke's comment that this particular '2007 stock car' was built in 2003.
   
  DW

DougOdom <dlodom at charter.net> wrote:
  Does anyone know when this Barrett-Jackson BS will be over? Every time I 
switch over to the Speed channel it is on. Even reruns of nascar races 
are better than watching a bunch of morons that could not build a car 
with anything but a checkbook. Stuck in my shop cleaning and nothing on 
TV or radio but Obama or Monica's ex boyfriends wife. Doug Odom in 
big ditch
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed


       
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From rbuck at xmission.com  Fri Jan 18 21:03:07 2008
From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:03:07 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] TV  Barrett-Jackson
In-Reply-To: <479116BA.8010206@charter.net>
References: <479116BA.8010206@charter.net>
Message-ID: <E1JG4vF-0000hg-4F@mgr1.xmission.com>

Come visit me in Taylorsville, Ut.  I got some great blues on the 
stereo.  From Charley Patton to Eric Clapton (which is what's playin 
right now.)  I'd even had ya one of my bass guitars and we can jam 
along with the blues.  I played enough to tire my fingers out tonite, 
but might just get another session in before bed.

Ray the (blues-lovin) Rat


At 02:14 PM 1/18/2008, DougOdom wrote:
>Does anyone know when this Barrett-Jackson BS will be over? Every time I
>switch over to the Speed channel it is on. Even reruns of nascar races
>are better than watching a bunch of morons that could not build a car
>with anything but a checkbook. Stuck in my shop cleaning and nothing on
>TV or radio but Obama or Monica's ex boyfriends wife.     Doug Odom in
>big ditch

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sat Jan 19 09:26:58 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:26:58 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
Message-ID: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com>

I want tomake a pair of dead soft copper header flange gaskets.  I made 
my new turbo headers and now cannot find solid copper gaskets for them. 
Flatout Gaskets will make them for me if I pay them $75 up front to 
build a dxf  cad file. But, for that kind of money, I can make my 
own,eh? So I need some flat copper sheet about 2 inches wide and about 4 
ft long to give me some wiggle room during fab. 

Anybvody have a source for the copper? Heck, maybe I should be talking 
to the Chinese as they sem to be buying all the metals nowadays

.Would dead soft aluminum also work? Might be easier and cheaper to find.

mayf

From kturk at ala.net  Sat Jan 19 09:58:48 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:58:48 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
References: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <07f801c85abc$9107ad10$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

You sure it won't ever go over say 1500 degrees?  Hmmm  I'm thinking the 
dead soft aluminum in an NA package might be cool.... be just a bit scared 
of it with the turbo's...

K 

From Rick at RBMotorsports.com  Sat Jan 19 10:11:40 2008
From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:11:40 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
References: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c85abe$5cdc32c0$6501a8c0@Rick>

Doc
See if you can find a Ford application for Ford 5.0L that used gaskets, or 
if svo has a reasonable one.
I don't know about the v8, but in the 80's we did a gasket for the 2.3 when 
it was in Aerostar,.  The engine had a tubular exhaust manifold. (weight 
savings, not perf.) and needed a gasket.
The gasket we did actually had a ss bore grommet at the port.  It would work 
well I think for a turbo application.
As for me, down the line when I go back to the boosted engine, Helicoflex is 
going to do a metallic "O" ring to fit the square Esslinger port.
Before inventing, see if you can buy it for reasonable money.

Rick

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 19 10:18:47 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:18:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
Message-ID: <516077.28031.qm@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

These guys sell copper sheet as well as a bunch of other materials, and you can buy in small quantities:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: LSR <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:26:58 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...

I want tomake a pair of dead soft copper header flange gaskets.  I made 
my new turbo headers and now cannot find solid copper gaskets for them. 
Flatout Gaskets will make them for me if I pay them $75 up front to 
build a dxf  cad file. But, for that kind of money, I can make my 
own,eh? So I need some flat copper sheet about 2 inches wide and about 4 
ft long to give me some wiggle room during fab. 

Anybvody have a source for the copper? Heck, maybe I should be talking 
to the Chinese as they sem to be buying all the metals nowadays

.Would dead soft aluminum also work? Might be easier and cheaper to find.

mayf


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From sotacd at comcast.net  Sat Jan 19 10:35:47 2008
From: sotacd at comcast.net (Steve Christophersen)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:35:47 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
References: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <002201c85ac1$ba686190$0301a8c0@stevescomp>

http://www.husseycopper.com/

Mike Pavia should be able to help

www.mcmaster.com/

Steve Christophersen



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:26 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...


>I want tomake a pair of dead soft copper header flange gaskets.  I made
> my new turbo headers and now cannot find solid copper gaskets for them.
> Flatout Gaskets will make them for me if I pay them $75 up front to
> build a dxf  cad file. But, for that kind of money, I can make my
> own,eh? So I need some flat copper sheet about 2 inches wide and about 4
> ft long to give me some wiggle room during fab.
>
> Anybvody have a source for the copper? Heck, maybe I should be talking
> to the Chinese as they sem to be buying all the metals nowadays
>
> .Would dead soft aluminum also work? Might be easier and cheaper to find.
>
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
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From adin at frontier.net  Sat Jan 19 10:42:32 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:42:32 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
References: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com>
	<07f801c85abc$9107ad10$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <000f01c85ac2$abc02230$8b01a8c0@ZTxp>

My experience is the EGT goes over 1500 rather quickly.  Most cars never see 
WFO as long as a salt car . . .



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...


> You sure it won't ever go over say 1500 degrees?  Hmmm  I'm thinking the
> dead soft aluminum in an NA package might be cool.... be just a bit scared
> of it with the turbo's...
>
> K
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
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From Rick at RBMotorsports.com  Sat Jan 19 11:32:33 2008
From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:32:33 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
References: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com><07f801c85abc$9107ad10$6400a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<000f01c85ac2$abc02230$8b01a8c0@ZTxp>
Message-ID: <006701c85ac9$a8cfdbe0$6501a8c0@Rick>

I'm in agreement.  My target goal EGT on the turbo motor with gasoline was 
1850 degrees f.  Inconnel turbine wheel and inconnel exhaust valves.  I 
think those materials would support more for only two minutes, but Garrett 
insisted I remain below 1900 deg f, and since they were major support back 
then, I complied...  well, I tried anyway.
Now with methanol I'm not so worried.

Rick 

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Sat Jan 19 12:51:11 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:51:11 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] LSR Steamer
Message-ID: <c00.257e4e1d.34c3aeaf@aol.com>

Sorry if somebody already posted this, I invoke CRS clause.  
 
_http://www.steamcar.net/lsr.html_ (http://www.steamcar.net/lsr.html) 



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From b.a.savage at wildblue.net  Sat Jan 19 13:14:45 2008
From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:14:45 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials...
In-Reply-To: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com>
References: <479224D2.8020904@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <47925A35.6060200@wildblue.net>

Mayf,
After you have finished making it, I suggest you anneal it.
Bryan

drmayf wrote:
> I want tomake a pair of dead soft copper header flange gaskets.  I made 
> my new turbo headers and now cannot find solid copper gaskets for them. 
> Flatout Gaskets will make them for me if I pay them $75 up front to 
> build a dxf  cad file. But, for that kind of money, I can make my 
> own,eh? So I need some flat copper sheet about 2 inches wide and about 4 
> ft long to give me some wiggle room during fab. 
>
> Anybvody have a source for the copper? Heck, maybe I should be talking 
> to the Chinese as they sem to be buying all the metals nowadays
>
> .Would dead soft aluminum also work? Might be easier and cheaper to find.
>
> mayf

From dlodom at charter.net  Sat Jan 19 16:39:51 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:39:51 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
Message-ID: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net>

Van Scoy and Sparky better watch out. Looks like Arizona is planning on 
making 1.2 Million dollars next year on speeding tickets. But how will 
they collect from the illegal ? They say they will have a sensor in the 
highway that records the speed and then take a picture of the vehicle. 
Looks like it is time to hav ethe James Bond rotating license plates on 
your car when you drive in Arizona.   Doug Odom going slow in big ditch

From jdincau at qnet.com  Sat Jan 19 16:55:48 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:55:48 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net>
Message-ID: <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>

Already got my wife in 2006 in Scottsdale. Camera and sensor on the street. 
She was trying to keep from getting lost and catch her sister who made a 
quick lane change, 54 in a 45 zone. Big bucks and being out of state no 
traffic school possible.
Jim




> Van Scoy and Sparky better watch out. Looks like Arizona is planning on
> making 1.2 Million dollars next year on speeding tickets. But how will
> they collect from the illegal ? They say they will have a sensor in the
> highway that records the speed and then take a picture of the vehicle.
> Looks like it is time to hav ethe James Bond rotating license plates on
> your car when you drive in Arizona.   Doug Odom going slow in big ditch

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Jan 19 18:03:44 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:03:44 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
In-Reply-To: <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net> <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
Message-ID: <055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Jim, Doug;

Yeah, this is really annoying; I'd like to throw the bums out who voted to
authorize that photo radar system. There was an article this morning in the
Tucson paper quoting Gov. Napolitano as saying she is counting on raising
revenue with this system-- so much for their "safety" argument. Now it is
exposed for what it is-- a fund raising program.

Ditto for the "red light runner" photo ticketing system. Scottsdale was
caught reducing the timing of their yellow lights to make it more difficult
to stop on red. Never give politicians this kind of power!

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Jim Dincau
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 4:56 PM
To: land Speed List
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps

Already got my wife in 2006 in Scottsdale. Camera and sensor on the street. 
She was trying to keep from getting lost and catch her sister who made a 
quick lane change, 54 in a 45 zone. Big bucks and being out of state no 
traffic school possible.
Jim




> Van Scoy and Sparky better watch out. Looks like Arizona is planning on
> making 1.2 Million dollars next year on speeding tickets. But how will
> they collect from the illegal ? They say they will have a sensor in the
> highway that records the speed and then take a picture of the vehicle.
> Looks like it is time to hav ethe James Bond rotating license plates on
> your car when you drive in Arizona.   Doug Odom going slow in big ditch

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sat Jan 19 19:15:26 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:15:26 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Material SOurces..
Message-ID: <4792AEBE.9000803@mayfco.com>

Thanks, guys, I have enough sources now.  The off  thought comment I 
made about using dead soft aluminum also seemd to resonate with a flock 
of you. Mostly the thought that my turbo was gonna cause the temps in 
the header pipes to reach some extreme levels and then the gaskets would 
go away. While my engineering side says nah won't happen, I will take 
the advice and not do it. I think I have already experienced the extreme 
temp level, lol. Last August as a matter of fact. I turned a whole set 
of stainless steel exhaust valves blue.  Also blew out the header flange 
gaskets at the same time. So I had lots of temps and lots of pressure in 
the headers. 

Again, many thanks for the comments and advice! I do appreciate it.

mayf

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 19 20:56:19 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 03:56:19 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Material SOurces..
In-Reply-To: <4792AEBE.9000803@mayfco.com>
References: <4792AEBE.9000803@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W41A06460553E65D723456AD93C0@phx.gbl>

  what a great list     -eh fellows ?


  cheers, "Dirt Track Doug"  in exile in So. New York,


  -22 miles from Square Deal Raceway,

  -21 miles east of Action Park Speedway,

   -63 miles northeast of Champion Speedway

   -105 miles south of "the  Syracuse  Mile" ...

   -265 miles north of Williams Grove Speedway

   -2325 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats

     and never more than a few feet from a cold one



  -'point man' in the never-ending search for Hot Blues,

                       Cold Beer, Fast Cars, an' Warm Willin' Wimin'



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:15:26 -0800
> From: drmayf at mayfco.com
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Material SOurces..
>
> Thanks, guys, I have enough sources now.  The off  thought comment I
> made about using dead soft aluminum also seemd to resonate with a flock
> of you. Mostly the thought that my turbo was gonna cause the temps in
> the header pipes to reach some extreme levels and then the gaskets would
> go away. While my engineering side says nah won't happen, I will take
> the advice and not do it. I think I have already experienced the extreme
> temp level, lol. Last August as a matter of fact. I turned a whole set
> of stainless steel exhaust valves blue.  Also blew out the header flange
> gaskets at the same time. So I had lots of temps and lots of pressure in
> the headers.
>
> Again, many thanks for the comments and advice! I do appreciate it.
>
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Jan 16 09:18:58 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:18:58 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] [BULK]Re:  Polar Moment
In-Reply-To: <C3B36DBB.BEC%advo@comcast.net>
References: <C3B36DBB.BEC%advo@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <478E2E72.7050007@mayfco.com>

Automotive Aerodynamics can be a booger!  As mentioned below, the 
effects of the ground are profound. When using a wind tunnel, if the 
tunnel doesnot have a moving ground plane that mimics the speed of the 
air then the data willbe only trend data. That's because the air under a 
vehicle is a major contributor to the overall aerodynamics of the 
vehicle. And the wheels and tires need to be turning on the ground plane 
at the same speed to effectively produce the effects of wind shears and 
flows over the wheels in and around the wheel wells. With a stream 
linere this is not as important. The lateral stability of the car also 
has another major contributor that hardly anyone seems to mention: 
ground vehicles have tire contact patches which primarily govern the yaw 
control, at least up to the point where the turning moment forces 
overcome the frinction forces between the tire and surface. The rear 
wheels, in a nominal rear wheel driven vehicle provide little in the way 
of lateral stability until the moment of upset and then they provide a 
significant amout of yaw control. They simply want to roll straight 
without hinderance and the skid forces can be great. Multiply those 
forces by the moment arm to the CG and the resisting moment is fairly 
lagre. Up until the friction is broken. Then the forces drop 
drastically.  The front wheels are turnable and provide a greater amount 
of yaw control than the rear. Increasing the caster angle also helps the 
wheel to keep pointed in the forward direction. I experienced this last 
October when I went for a pendoulous slide for what seemed like hours. 
During that wild ride, and since I was just p[retty much a passenger, I 
watched what was going on. The steering wheel was really trying very 
hard to make the car go in the later axis direction, I have 
approximately 16 degrees of caster in the front of my car. it is really 
a bear to push around the shop but on the straight line surface, it 
works for me! A lot has been said about the polar moment with regards to 
the vehicle. A high polar moment of inertia resists the yawing 
effectbecause of the inertia, lol. Conversely when the yaw is out of 
control, it is also hard to stoip the spin or yaw  until other forces 
come into play. A small polar moment of inertia makes teh car responsive 
to yaw changes such as steerin around a road course. MAkes it easy to 
change directions and makes the road grip needed to change those  
directions less.

I suspect thare are a numbe rof you on the list who are fully capable of 
making a dynamics case study of the yaw of a typical vehicle when all of 
the forces are involved.  If you would do so, I would be happy to post 
the general solution(s) on my web site with full attribution tot he 
author or authors. I think it woul dbe great to have some benchmarks 
which provide guidance to the desing of a vehicle for the salt given all 
the factors involved.  Unfortunately, while I think I coul dmake some 
preliminary analyses, I have 3 cars going at themoment, a large 
presentation to be made to the Sunbeam folk, a large family reunion to 
go to in Tex, and some major dental activity all in the n ext few 
months. So I am booked up righ tnow. But I will take a peek at the 
problem and see if I can develop the equations of motion.

One of the tools which coul dhelp is the use of CFD. However, CFD is 
pretty expensive and each vehicle case would require a different model. 
That's probably all right for the unlimited speed folk who have lots of 
backers and can pay, but not for the rest of us, I fear.

In any cae, I am off to get another cuppa and to fully open my eyes...

great topic for LSR!

mayf
Greg Meyers wrote:

>Actually, I believe that the Wright brothers were making small models and
>affixing them to the end of beams which were jutting forward from moving
>vehicles (bicycles?...).  One of the problems though, will be the the fact
>that with ground based vehicles, there is always the effect of the ground on
>one side and sky on the other.  The MPG group has been discussing this
>thread....
>Greg
>http://salt2salt.com
>  
>
>>I wonder if some of the scale model body shapes available like to the RC
>>model builders are big enough to test in a small wind tunnel.  I even wonder
>>if this could be a sophisticated "garage project?  
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From NT788 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 20 07:54:01 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:54:01 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Polar Moment
Message-ID: <012020081454.13765.47936089000E1F08000035C52216557996C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Could be, be carefull! Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "John Burk" <joyseydevil at comcast.net> 

> Jack 
> 
> Not if the scrub radius is zero . 
> 
> John 
> 
> 
> 
> > Elon Caster when turned creats a diagonal weight bias ie right turn 
> > loads r.f and l.r. very >bad with a locked rear end!Wheels steer best when 
> > all four both touch the ground >equally"lsr." Weight on front wheels 
> > steering. weight on rear wheels traction, weight in the >middle a deficit. 
> > Note how little steering it takes to change lanes at 60mph! A lot of 
> > caster >= steer-correct- steer-correct-steer-spin! A lot of castor would 
> > work good rock >climbing! jack 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From jon at infodestruction.com  Sun Jan 20 11:21:29 2008
From: jon at infodestruction.com (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:21:29 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
In-Reply-To: <055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net> <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
	<055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>

On Jan 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, <neil at dbelltech.com>  
<neil at dbelltech.com> wrote:



Ditto for the "red light runner" photo ticketing system. Scottsdale was
caught reducing the timing of their yellow lights to make it more  
difficult
to stop on red.



Maybe -- but the number of folks running through the yellow, running  
the red -- sure seems greater than ever these days.  I know I see  
lots of them up here -- and lots of accidents from folks trying to  
stretch the yellow light and get through.  If you're in such a hurry  
that you need to get through the light -- leave home a minute  
earlier!  Don't be so danged selfish that your need to beat the light  
is more important than obeying the laws that are there to make  
driving safer for all of us.

I'd rather have the photo/red light system up here than not -- but  
Michigan law doesn't allow tickets to be issued without a policeman  
having witnessed the incident in person.

                 Jon Wennerberg
Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
              Marquette, Michigan
              (that's 'way up north)

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sun Jan 20 11:28:39 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:28:39 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
In-Reply-To: <58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net> <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
	<055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <479392D7.5020304@mayfco.com>

Jon W, that is interesting. I suspect they have a double standard 
here...I bet they have no trouble arresting someone caught on tape 
robbing a store or ATM or what ever. Some thing that was not witnessed 
by a human but a video camera only.

Las Vegas may be the poster child for people running yellow/red lights. 
Anymore when I go over, and am stopped by a red light and I am the first 
in line, I always count to 3 or 4 before I go because without a doubt 
there will be at least one car run the yellow/red.

how ya'll doing up in the land of snow and ice?

mayf, down here where is is going to be a warm 59 degrees, lol


Jon Wennerberg wrote:

>On Jan 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, <neil at dbelltech.com>  
><neil at dbelltech.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>Ditto for the "red light runner" photo ticketing system. Scottsdale was
>caught reducing the timing of their yellow lights to make it more  
>difficult
>to stop on red.
>
>
>
>Maybe -- but the number of folks running through the yellow, running  
>the red -- sure seems greater than ever these days.  I know I see  
>lots of them up here -- and lots of accidents from folks trying to  
>stretch the yellow light and get through.  If you're in such a hurry  
>that you need to get through the light -- leave home a minute  
>earlier!  Don't be so danged selfish that your need to beat the light  
>is more important than obeying the laws that are there to make  
>driving safer for all of us.
>
>I'd rather have the photo/red light system up here than not -- but  
>Michigan law doesn't allow tickets to be issued without a policeman  
>having witnessed the incident in person.
>
>                 Jon Wennerberg
>Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
>              Marquette, Michigan
>              (that's 'way up north)
>_______________________________________________

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Sun Jan 20 11:32:16 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:32:16 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
In-Reply-To: <58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net> <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
	<055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <ACC55BB8-1A3D-4D33-BB0C-97BF1FD22B75@comcast.net>

I'll have to check at the Auto Show tomorrow to see if they are still
selling those covers that obscure your front plate from an overhead
flash.  If I find them I'll post a link.

Wes


On Jan 20, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Jon Wennerberg wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, <neil at dbelltech.com>
> <neil at dbelltech.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Ditto for the "red light runner" photo ticketing system. Scottsdale  
> was
> caught reducing the timing of their yellow lights to make it more
> difficult
> to stop on red.
>
>
>
> Maybe -- but the number of folks running through the yellow, running
> the red -- sure seems greater than ever these days.  I know I see
> lots of them up here -- and lots of accidents from folks trying to
> stretch the yellow light and get through.  If you're in such a hurry
> that you need to get through the light -- leave home a minute
> earlier!  Don't be so danged selfish that your need to beat the light
> is more important than obeying the laws that are there to make
> driving safer for all of us.
>
> I'd rather have the photo/red light system up here than not -- but
> Michigan law doesn't allow tickets to be issued without a policeman
> having witnessed the incident in person.
>
>                 Jon Wennerberg
> Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
>              Marquette, Michigan
>              (that's 'way up north)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From adin at frontier.net  Sun Jan 20 12:15:42 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (adin at frontier.net)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:15:42 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
In-Reply-To: <479392D7.5020304@mayfco.com>
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net> <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
	<055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>
	<479392D7.5020304@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <20080120121542.9z8wo88484co04ks@webmail.brainstorminternet.net>

Above zero in Durango, summer's coming and so is salt time.

Obey the laws so you can break a record!




Quoting drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com>:

> Jon W, that is interesting. I suspect they have a double standard
> here...I bet they have no trouble arresting someone caught on tape
> robbing a store or ATM or what ever. Some thing that was not witnessed
> by a human but a video camera only.
>
> Las Vegas may be the poster child for people running yellow/red lights.
> Anymore when I go over, and am stopped by a red light and I am the first
> in line, I always count to 3 or 4 before I go because without a doubt
> there will be at least one car run the yellow/red.
>
> how ya'll doing up in the land of snow and ice?
>
> mayf, down here where is is going to be a warm 59 degrees, lol
>
>
> Jon Wennerberg wrote:
>
>> On Jan 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, <neil at dbelltech.com>
>> <neil at dbelltech.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Ditto for the "red light runner" photo ticketing system. Scottsdale was
>> caught reducing the timing of their yellow lights to make it more
>> difficult
>> to stop on red.
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe -- but the number of folks running through the yellow, running
>> the red -- sure seems greater than ever these days.  I know I see
>> lots of them up here -- and lots of accidents from folks trying to
>> stretch the yellow light and get through.  If you're in such a hurry
>> that you need to get through the light -- leave home a minute
>> earlier!  Don't be so danged selfish that your need to beat the light
>> is more important than obeying the laws that are there to make
>> driving safer for all of us.
>>
>> I'd rather have the photo/red light system up here than not -- but
>> Michigan law doesn't allow tickets to be issued without a policeman
>> having witnessed the incident in person.
>>
>>                 Jon Wennerberg
>> Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing
>>              Marquette, Michigan
>>              (that's 'way up north)
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sun Jan 20 12:22:17 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:22:17 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
In-Reply-To: <C6B2C63E-E07D-4DD1-A57E-C8BA269ECF01@nancyandjon.org>
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net> <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
	<055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>
	<479392D7.5020304@mayfco.com>
	<C6B2C63E-E07D-4DD1-A57E-C8BA269ECF01@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <47939F69.5080209@mayfco.com>

Jon, jeeze, my blood freezes at +45 degres, lol.  But, you are likely 
wearing your shorts and T shirt, eh?    I suspect Joe Amo is in the same 
boat as you. Tell me again why you live there? Are those rational reasons?

mayf
Jon Wennerberg wrote:

>
> On Jan 20, 2008, at 1:28 PM, drmayf wrote:
>
> How ya'll doing up in the land of snow and ice?
>
> mayf, down here where is is going to be a warm 59 degrees, lol
>
> It was a mellow -12.8F on the digital thermometer when I first looked, 
> at about 7.30 this morning.  I betcha it's all the way up to a degree 
> or so ABOVE zero by now, the warm part of the day.  Season snowfall 
> total passed 100" a couple of days ago.
>
> Hey, go to 
>
> Jon Wennerberg

From mactem at mebtel.net  Sun Jan 20 17:45:23 2008
From: mactem at mebtel.net (Mobley-Anderson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:45:23 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed]  Arizona speed traps
Message-ID: <002d01c85bc6$ebb10bc0$0300a8c0@brightstar>

Nancy lives there, so Jon has no choice!
David

From Want1937hd at aol.com  Sun Jan 20 22:57:09 2008
From: Want1937hd at aol.com (Want1937hd at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:57:09 EST
Subject: [Land-speed] LSR Steamer
Message-ID: <c0b.266907bf.34c58e35@aol.com>

About time someone upgraded a 101 year old record. Bob in connecticut



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Mon Jan 21 10:45:16 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:45:16 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] LSR Steamer
In-Reply-To: <c0b.266907bf.34c58e35@aol.com>
References: <c0b.266907bf.34c58e35@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20080121174519.DDB4B187896@autox.team.net>

145 in August of 1985 at Bonneville. Which record were you referring 
to? There were some fast times.
Skip



At 09:57 PM 1/20/2008, Want1937hd at aol.com wrote:
>About time someone upgraded a 101 year old record. Bob in connecticut
>
>
>
>**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.
>http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as saltrat at pahrump.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltracer at awwwsome.com  Mon Jan 21 11:36:08 2008
From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:36:08 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
References: <47928A47.3090100@charter.net> <001501c85af6$d14a6ef0$0500000a@Den>
	<055801c85b00$4e5b8f10$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<58B2BF49-E68E-4D4F-A858-B7F4DAD9E69C@infodestruction.com>
Message-ID: <4794E618.00001F.04460@D3DP98F1>

Redding has equipped one intersection with a camera  system  to get the red
light runners which is a growing problem here. I don't move when the green
light comes on without looking both ways and making sure the traffic is
stopping before entering the intersection. I have seen as many as three cars
go through an intersection after the red light is on.

There was a story in our paper this last week reporting on the effectiveness
of this one monitored
Intersection. According to the story, in order for you to be photographed,
you would have to be two feet behind the crosswalk when the light turned red
 There were several infractions that were thrown out (about half of the 315
photos) because of various reasons, driver's face or vehicle's license not
adequately visible, etc., or  cases that were likely not to win in the
courts for other reasons.

I think that a large factor in this red light running epidemic is driver
distraction which includes cell phones, daydreaming, and the like. We
recently had a car hit a lady on a bicycle who died from the injuries. The
driver of the car was reaching in the back seat for a baby bottle and
wandered into the bike lane. Sad, but we all do stupid things while driving.

I do support the cameras...three other intersections in Redding will be
getting cameras. According to the Police Chiefs comments about the
possibility of rear end crashes when people stop rapidly to avoid running
the light, I don't believe that yellow light duration  will be shortened
here.

Tom, Redding - #216 D/FCC

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[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_pets_cat1_en.gif]

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Mon Jan 21 14:01:22 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:01:22 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Homebrew hydroforming with a pressure washer
Message-ID: <004801c85c70$cb6d2740$6501a8c0@S>

>From the Seattle Metalheads Yahoo group--
Looks like a low carbon steel header for a bike.  No indication of the
pressure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Z3AIFSd60
You could also do this with a hydraulic pump and oil.
Maybe possible with silver soldered copper or brass with several anneals or
soft welded aluminum like 3003-0 or 1100.
Ed Weldon

From zoombot at cox.net  Mon Jan 21 14:55:15 2008
From: zoombot at cox.net (Pile,Chris)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:55:15 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
Message-ID: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>

    List -

    If the red light runners are a growing problem, how bad has it gotten?
When I was on vacation in the Southwest during January of 1987, there were
billboards with warnings, articles in the newspapers, and reporters on the
evening news discussing how to control drivers running red lights. It seemed
to be an epidemic then, from the tone of the media.
Is the whole state doing it now?

    Chris Pile aka aircap

From David.Parks at lfr.com  Mon Jan 21 15:06:33 2008
From: David.Parks at lfr.com (Parks, David)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:06:33 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
In-Reply-To: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
Message-ID: <52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>

I am convinced that the whole red light violation thing is just another
way for the local Govt's to make money. If it were solely about safety,
they would just program in a several second delay before the green comes
on. End of problem from a "safety" standpoint (and relatively
cost-effective, too), but no ticket income for the locals. Red light
cameras are big business, with many localities turning the operation
over to a "for profit" companies that get a piece of the action. So much
for "serve and protect"...

This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the
named addressee(s) and
may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential or exempt
from disclosure under applicable law.
If you are not a named addressee, you are hereby notified that any use,
dissemination, distribution or copying
of this message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this message in
error, please notify the original
sender immediately by telephone or by return e-mail and delete this message,
along with any attachments,
from your computer.  Thank you.

From jdincau at qnet.com  Mon Jan 21 16:04:30 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:04:30 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
Message-ID: <000c01c85c81$fb2f0b40$0500000a@Den>

Chris,
     I don't think it has gotten any worse. A certain percentage of the 
driving population are idiots, bigger population, more idiots.
Jim in Palmdale

>    List -
>
>    If the red light runners are a growing problem, how bad has it gotten?
> When I was on vacation in the Southwest during January of 1987, there were
> billboards with warnings, articles in the newspapers, and reporters on the
> evening news discussing how to control drivers running red lights. It 
> seemed
> to be an epidemic then, from the tone of the media.
> Is the whole state doing it now?
>
>    Chris Pile aka aircap

From jdincau at qnet.com  Mon Jan 21 16:06:30 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:06:30 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
	<52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
Message-ID: <001301c85c82$420951b0$0500000a@Den>

Dave,
     Traffic lights have been that way (delayed green) for quite a long 
time.
Jim in Palmdale

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Parks, David" <David.Parks at lfr.com>
To: "Land Speed Digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps


>I am convinced that the whole red light violation thing is just another
> way for the local Govt's to make money. If it were solely about safety,
> they would just program in a several second delay before the green comes
> on. End of problem from a "safety" standpoint (and relatively
> cost-effective, too), but no ticket income for the locals. Red light
> cameras are big business, with many localities turning the operation
> over to a "for profit" companies that get a piece of the action. So much
> for "serve and protect"...

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Jan 21 17:16:36 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:16:36 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
In-Reply-To: <52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
	<52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
Message-ID: <479535E4.3060907@mayfco.com>

I dunno about adding to the government coffers, but if you program in 
more delay time, that's just  time for more ding a lings to run the light.

mayf
Parks, David wrote:

>I am convinced that the whole red light violation thing is just another
>way for the local Govt's to make money. If it were solely about safety,
>they would just program in a several second delay before the green comes
>on. End of problem from a "safety" standpoint (and relatively
>cost-effective, too), but no ticket income for the locals. Red light
>cameras are big business, with many localities turning the operation
>over to a "for profit" companies that get a piece of the action. So much
>for "serve and protect"...

From jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jan 21 17:34:44 2008
From: jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net (John Thornton)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:34:44 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
In-Reply-To: <001301c85c82$420951b0$0500000a@Den>
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
	<52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
	<001301c85c82$420951b0$0500000a@Den>
Message-ID: <47953A24.5010200@sbcglobal.net>

A large percentage of red light running accidents are alcohol related so 
cameras have no impact on those but the most recent studies in the U.K. 
and Australia show a 12% decrease in accidents at intersections with 
cameras provided the cameras were promoted and not hidden.
Rear ending increase at these intersections by 5%.
The rear ending accidents cause less physical injury overall but the 
data here is incomplete.

In California the most recent study showed a red light running decrease 
in accidents of 29%, and injury reduction of 68% and no corresponding 
increase in rear end accidents.
Matt Labash's study is out of date and the above recent meta-analysis 
from the WHO contains the most up to date data.

Increasing the length of time of the amber light has shown similar 
reductions at a much reduced cost to cameras but there is no doubt 
cameras increase revenue in most places in excess of their cost. The 
fact that such a delay is in place almost everywhere doesn't change the 
fact that increasing that delay shows reductions in accident rates. I am 
unaware of any studies that show at what length diminished returns make 
any additional increases worthless. Many municipalities have decreased 
their amber light times in a misguided effort to help traffic flow since 
this is obviously much less expensive than building infrastructure so in 
this municipalities are moving in the wrong direction.

So yes cameras work but there is good evidence that there is a less 
expensive alternative, albeit one that doesn't increase revenue, thats 
give decent but lower decreases when compared to cameras.

If safety is your concern cameras do increase safety without a doubt but 
of course some contrarians still debate the connection between 
cigarettes and lung cancer so the 'debate' over cameras and safety will 
never end regardless of how many studies are done and how good their data.

John Thornton




Jim Dincau wrote:
> Dave,
>      Traffic lights have been that way (delayed green) for quite a long 
> time.
> Jim in Palmdale
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Parks, David" <David.Parks at lfr.com>
> To: "Land Speed Digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
>
>
>   
>> I am convinced that the whole red light violation thing is just another
>> way for the local Govt's to make money. If it were solely about safety,
>> they would just program in a several second delay before the green comes
>> on. End of problem from a "safety" standpoint (and relatively
>> cost-effective, too), but no ticket income for the locals. Red light
>> cameras are big business, with many localities turning the operation
>> over to a "for profit" companies that get a piece of the action. So much
>> for "serve and protect"...

From b.a.savage at wildblue.net  Mon Jan 21 18:31:34 2008
From: b.a.savage at wildblue.net (Bryan Savage)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:31:34 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
In-Reply-To: <479535E4.3060907@mayfco.com>
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
	<52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
	<479535E4.3060907@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <47954776.5040009@wildblue.net>

Bach in the '80's there was an intersection near me that had a problem 
with people running the red light and hitting cars
making a left turn into an industrial area. The cops made the yellow 
longer, 5-6 times. No change.  They then put it back
to the standard setting and assigned 2 cars and 2 motorcycles to the 
intersection.
On Monday they couldn't write tickets fast enough. By Friday,  only 1 
car and 1 MC were assigned and they wrote a few
tickets. The following week there was just 1 car OR 1 MC on Monday and 
they were gone before Friday.

The original problem did not return. Most of the drivers were going to 
the same place I worked and the first day there was an avalanche of 
email about the subject.

A buddy of mine, a SJPD officer called me at work and updated me about 
their progress. He and his partner had come up
with the idea. They were Traffic Collision Reconstructionist.

I thought the whole thing was a bit strange.

Bryan




drmayf wrote:
> I dunno about adding to the government coffers, but if you program in 
> more delay time, that's just  time for more ding a lings to run the light.
>
> mayf
> Parks, David wrote:
>
>   
>> I am convinced that the whole red light violation thing is just another
>> way for the local Govt's to make money. If it were solely about safety,
>> they would just program in a several second delay before the green comes
>> on. End of problem from a "safety" standpoint (and relatively
>> cost-effective, too), but no ticket income for the locals. Red light
>> cameras are big business, with many localities turning the operation
>> over to a "for profit" companies that get a piece of the action. So much
>> for "serve and protect"...
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as b.a.savage at earthlink.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Mon Jan 21 18:50:18 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:50:18 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
In-Reply-To: <52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
	<52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
Message-ID: <C503061F-0ABD-4130-B89A-C638F603B034@comcast.net>

They tried the cameras in West Valley City here in the SLC area.
I don't remember the whole scenario but much of it was because
the charges from the company doing the surveillance and billing
were greater than the $$$ they were bringing in.  There were
motorists who informed the city that they were shopping elsewhere
because of the program.  I didn't write the city but just didn't go to
those stores.  Now I'm out of the habit and still don't shop there.

Wes

On Jan 21, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Parks, David wrote:

> I am convinced that the whole red light violation thing is just  
> another
> way for the local Govt's to make money. If it were solely about  
> safety,
> they would just program in a several second delay before the green  
> comes
> on. End of problem from a "safety" standpoint (and relatively
> cost-effective, too), but no ticket income for the locals. Red light
> cameras are big business, with many localities turning the operation
> over to a "for profit" companies that get a piece of the action. So  
> much
> for "serve and protect"...
>
> This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the  
> use of the
> named addressee(s) and
> may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential or  
> exempt
> from disclosure under applicable law.
> If you are not a named addressee, you are hereby notified that any  
> use,
> dissemination, distribution or copying
> of this message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this  
> message in
> error, please notify the original
> sender immediately by telephone or by return e-mail and delete this  
> message,
> along with any attachments,
> from your computer.  Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as wester6935 at comcast.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ed at vetteracing.com  Mon Jan 21 20:51:54 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:51:54 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
Message-ID: <W7368613179313591200973914@webmail5>

Doug, In all seriousness....... In a LOT of cases, the cops don't citeillegals
- even for DUI - because they know they will not show upfor court. There are
currently 80,000 outstanding warrents that theSherriff 9 So-called toughest in
the country) won't bother serving,because they have moved on. The jails here
are filled to the brimwith responsible citizens...... 75% are in jail for
either childsupport or DUI. What a country.....
Ed

>-----Original Message-----
>From: DougOdom [mailto:dlodom at charter.net]
>Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 04:39 PM
>To: 'Landspeed List'
>Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
>
>Van Scoy and Sparky better watch out. Looks like Arizona is planning on
>making 1.2 Million dollars next year on speeding tickets. But how will
>they collect from the illegal ? They say they will have a sensor in the
>highway that records the speed and then take a picture of the vehicle.
>Looks like it is time to hav ethe James Bond rotating license plates on
>your car when you drive in Arizona. Doug Odom going slow in big ditch

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Jan 21 21:30:32 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:30:32 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Illegals----
In-Reply-To: <W7368613179313591200973914@webmail5>
References: <W7368613179313591200973914@webmail5>
Message-ID: <8015EC0B068344219C61109306A0A08B@LindaPC>

ED----don't get me started!!!!!!!!!!!---it has to be a HARD felony or they 
are told don't waste your time and gas---should be locked up and 
deported----IMEDIATELY----i
----- Original Message -----  

From jon.the.wise at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 01:32:09 2008
From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jon Bishop)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:32:09 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] ON Topic, No Political COntent,
 lol...Turbo  and Mass Air Meter  Question
In-Reply-To: <478CE1CB.3070306@mayfco.com>
References: <478CE1CB.3070306@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <BA4B01F7-B51C-46D6-A5B0-3C70969C2341@gmail.com>

As I understand it, the MAF has to be far enough up/downstream from  
anything to have a smooth flow of air. It's harder to meter turbulent  
air, I suppose? On my eclipse, the stock location is 10" before the  
turbo, just after that air filter/box. I've moved this to approx 8"  
from the throttle body, which is miles after the turbo (well, there's  
several feet of 3" pipe and a 24x12x4 intercooler)

~Jon

On Jan 15, 2008, at 8:39 AM, drmayf wrote:

> Any of you turbo guys out there running mass air flow meters on your
> b'ville cars... do you have any experience with how close to the turbo
> the maf can be for it to still function correctly? Some of my other
> email lists have indicated that 6 to 12 inches is appropriate, but  
> what
> is the wide open throttle experience? This is a for a large turbo  
> with a
> 4 inch inlet and a 4 inch diameter maf.
>
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as jon.the.wise at gmail.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltracer at awwwsome.com  Tue Jan 22 08:35:36 2008
From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:35:36 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
References: <002801c85c78$4dfb60d0$76f8cd48@HomePC>
	<52FC50879C1E2C43B5B0D7109FC9D008072083@ex-southwest.Ops.LFR.AD>
	<C503061F-0ABD-4130-B89A-C638F603B034@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47960D48.00000A.05552@D3DP98F1>

Wes,

The charges for the systems here are a portion of the citation. I believe it
is $183.00 that the city gets for each citation. I don't know of any other
costs to the city, except possibly the power the systems use, and it frees
up officers to do other important duties.

I can't understand why you would shop somewhere else? I just keep in mind
that the signals are monitored and be extra careful. I go through this
intersection at least twice daily and most days many more times. I don't
make a habit of running red lights anyway.

Tom, Redding - #216 D/FCC

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_pets_cat1_en.gif]

From NT788 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 22 08:38:07 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:38:07 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
Message-ID: <012220081538.18023.47960DDE000E7765000046672216551406C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Ron Paul wouldn,t vote for that!

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Parks, David" <David.Parks at lfr.com> 

> I am convinced that the whole red light violation thing is just another 
> way for the local Govt's to make money. If it were solely about safety, 
> they would just program in a several second delay before the green comes 
> on. End of problem from a "safety" standpoint (and relatively 
> cost-effective, too), but no ticket income for the locals. Red light 
> cameras are big business, with many localities turning the operation 
> over to a "for profit" companies that get a piece of the action. So much 
> for "serve and protect"... 
> 
> This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the 
> named addressee(s) and 
> may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential or exempt 
> from disclosure under applicable law. 
> If you are not a named addressee, you are hereby notified that any use, 
> dissemination, distribution or copying 
> of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in 
> error, please notify the original 
> sender immediately by telephone or by return e-mail and delete this message, 
> along with any attachments, 
> from your computer. Thank you. 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From NT788 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 22 08:42:29 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:42:29 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
Message-ID: <012220081542.2199.47960EE500086988000008972216551406C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Tom I don't own guns but I don't like gun control!

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Tom Bryant" <saltracer at awwwsome.com> 

> Wes, 
> 
> The charges for the systems here are a portion of the citation. I believe it 
> is $183.00 that the city gets for each citation. I don't know of any other 
> costs to the city, except possibly the power the systems use, and it frees 
> up officers to do other important duties. 
> 
> I can't understand why you would shop somewhere else? I just keep in mind 
> that the signals are monitored and be extra careful. I go through this 
> intersection at least twice daily and most days many more times. I don't 
> make a habit of running red lights anyway. 
> 
> Tom, Redding - #216 D/FCC 
> 
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of 
> faint_grain.jpg] 
> 
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of 
> imstp_pets_cat1_en.gif] 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From saltracer at awwwsome.com  Tue Jan 22 09:34:39 2008
From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:34:39 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
References: <012220081542.2199.47960EE500086988000008972216551406C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47961B1F.00000D.05552@D3DP98F1>

That's the answer, Jack! Get rid of the laws, give everyone guns and take
out the lights. We could shoot our way to work.

Tom, Redding CA  - #216 D/FCC

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_pets_cat1_en.gif]

From dlodom at charter.net  Tue Jan 22 16:50:42 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:50:42 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Rear end efficiency
Message-ID: <47968152.30802@charter.net>

I asked this question on landspeed.com and never got an answer. Can 
anyone tell me when and where there has been testing done on the 
efficiency of the different styles of rear end gears. Quick change, Ford 
9", GM, etc. Is it a SWAG or is there data. I know the NASCAR guys do a 
lot of work on the 9" R & P I get from them. Has anyone done the same 
thing to a quick change and measured the results. There must be a SAE 
paper or something like it out there.
Doug Odom in rainy big ditch

From piggy at accessatc.net  Tue Jan 22 17:05:18 2008
From: piggy at accessatc.net (don thigpen)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Rear end efficiency
References: <47968152.30802@charter.net>
Message-ID: <00f101c85d53$a38832e0$eb7f51d8@your4105e587b6>

the older i get , the less efficient my rear end is !

don t
evo power & machine
www.accessatc.net/~piggy
www.snartracing.com
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
ANYTHING... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM
DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS. 

From fosterap at flash.net  Tue Jan 22 18:03:09 2008
From: fosterap at flash.net (JERRY FOSTER)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Rear end efficiency
In-Reply-To: <47968152.30802@charter.net>
Message-ID: <971991.64458.qm@web80614.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Doug.........somebody has produced a quick change that is supposed to be great for LSR.  Sparky knows about this.  Perhaps he will fill us in.
  Hope all is well out in the Big Ditch.
   
  Jerry in Dallas
  

DougOdom <dlodom at charter.net> wrote:
  I asked this question on landspeed.com and never got an answer. Can 
anyone tell me when and where there has been testing done on the 
efficiency of the different styles of rear end gears. Quick change, Ford 
9", GM, etc. Is it a SWAG or is there data. I know the NASCAR guys do a 
lot of work on the 9" R & P I get from them. Has anyone done the same 
thing to a quick change and measured the results. There must be a SAE 
paper or something like it out there.
Doug Odom in rainy big ditch
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as fosterap at flash.net

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Tue Jan 22 22:26:27 2008
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:26:27 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Rear end efficiency
Message-ID: <002e01c85d80$81237200$446b2544@john>

Last July Tony Prerra posted that he had done a chassis dyno comparison 
between a QC , 9" & a 12 bolt dropout . He found the CG was the worst , the 
9" was 6 hp better & the dropout was a total of 10 hp better .

I asked for more details and he wrote back :

"Engine was an XO GMC , all ratios were about 2.47:1 , 6200 rpm in high gear 
, 140 deg , having the dry sump on the rear on or off made little difference 
, oil temperature made "some" difference , gears were "shot pened" , Synergy 
nascar qualifying oil "

I assume these were done on the same day . With conventional oil it would 
seem the differences would be greater and a change from cold to hot would be 
noticeable .



>I asked this question on landspeed.com and never got an answer. Can
> anyone tell me when and where there has been testing done on the
> efficiency of the different styles of rear end gears. Quick change, Ford
> 9", GM, etc. Is it a SWAG or is there data. I know the NASCAR guys do a
> lot of work on the 9" R & P I get from them. Has anyone done the same
> thing to a quick change and measured the results. There must be a SAE
> paper or something like it out there.
> Doug Odom in rainy big ditch

From lsrvette at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 09:58:05 2008
From: lsrvette at yahoo.com (John Staiger)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Rear end efficiency
Message-ID: <154296.50757.qm@web50412.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Doug,
 
I talked to Winters, Tiger and Frankland about your very question this past December at the PRI show.  As I'm in the market for a QC I had similar interests/concerns.  Discounting Frankland (no help whatsoever), both Winters and Tiger provided consistent data that I have paraphrased from memory below:
 
The loss from a 9" Ford, Dayna R&P, Spool, Mobil 1, standard test conditions was ~ 10 - 16 hp depending on ratio.
The loss from a "standard roller bearing" QC, Dayna R&P, Spool, Mobil 1, standard test conditions was ~ 6 hp more. (same as info below).
The loss from a "angular ball bearing" QC with RIM polished R&P was nominally the same as the 9" Ford.
 
Hence the low drag bearings and RIM processes reduce drag on average about 6 - 8 hp (as tested).  Tiger makes a very big deal out of this feature by selling their QC with all the low drag bearings, polishing, etc standard.  Winters offers the same setup, however you have to order the "options".  The short version -- the QC has more efficient R&P than the 9" or 12", however it is handicapped by the extra straight cut QC gears.
 
If my memory servers me, Tiger has a paper or some type of analysis on their website... it might help... then again... it might not... 

John
569

----- Original Message ----
From: John Burk <joyseydevil at comcast.net>
To: LandSpeed List <Land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:26:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Rear end efficiency

Last July Tony Prerra posted that he had done a chassis dyno comparison 
between a QC , 9" & a 12 bolt dropout . He found the CG was the worst , the 
9" was 6 hp better & the dropout was a total of 10 hp better .

I asked for more details and he wrote back :

"Engine was an XO GMC , all ratios were about 2.47:1 , 6200 rpm in high gear 
, 140 deg , having the dry sump on the rear on or off made little difference 
, oil temperature made "some" difference , gears were "shot pened" , Synergy 
nascar qualifying oil "

I assume these were done on the same day . With conventional oil it would 
seem the differences would be greater and a change from cold to hot would be 
noticeable .



>I asked this question on landspeed.com and never got an answer. Can
> anyone tell me when and where there has been testing done on the
> efficiency of the different styles of rear end gears. Quick change, Ford
> 9", GM, etc. Is it a SWAG or is there data. I know the NASCAR guys do a
> lot of work on the 9" R & P I get from them. Has anyone done the same
> thing to a quick change and measured the results. There must be a SAE
> paper or something like it out there.
> Doug Odom in rainy big ditch
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as lsrvette at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From NT788 at comcast.net  Wed Jan 23 11:35:02 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:35:02 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona Speed Traps
Message-ID: <012320081835.8957.479788D60001BB34000022FD2214756402C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

Chris Whenever there is a "problem"some people spend money, and some people make money! All you have to remember is "they're doing it for us" ! Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Pile,Chris" <zoombot at cox.net> 

> List - 
> 
> If the red light runners are a growing problem, how bad has it gotten? 
> When I was on vacation in the Southwest during January of 1987, there were 
> billboards with warnings, articles in the newspapers, and reporters on the 
> evening news discussing how to control drivers running red lights. It seemed 
> to be an epidemic then, from the tone of the media. 
> Is the whole state doing it now? 
> 
> Chris Pile aka aircap 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From NT788 at comcast.net  Wed Jan 23 12:22:07 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:22:07 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Arizona speed traps
Message-ID: <012320081922.786.479793DF0009FD16000003122215551724C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

How about a red light triggered shotgun shell in the steering wheel? Oh, unless the voilation is accidental, then it shots the cop! Jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com> 

> Jon W, that is interesting. I suspect they have a double standard 
> here...I bet they have no trouble arresting someone caught on tape 
> robbing a store or ATM or what ever. Some thing that was not witnessed 
> by a human but a video camera only. 
> 
> Las Vegas may be the poster child for people running yellow/red lights. 
> Anymore when I go over, and am stopped by a red light and I am the first 
> in line, I always count to 3 or 4 before I go because without a doubt 
> there will be at least one car run the yellow/red. 
> 
> how ya'll doing up in the land of snow and ice? 
> 
> mayf, down here where is is going to be a warm 59 degrees, lol 
> 
> 
> Jon Wennerberg wrote: 
> 
> >On Jan 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, 
> > wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >Ditto for the "red light runner" photo ticketing system. Scottsdale was 
> >caught reducing the timing of their yellow lights to make it more 
> >difficult 
> >to stop on red. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >Maybe -- but the number of folks running through the yellow, running 
> >the red -- sure seems greater than ever these days. I know I see 
> >lots of them up here -- and lots of accidents from folks trying to 
> >stretch the yellow light and get through. If you're in such a hurry 
> >that you need to get through the light -- leave home a minute 
> >earlier! Don't be so danged selfish that your need to beat the light 
> >is more important than obeying the laws that are there to make 
> >driving safer for all of us. 
> > 
> >I'd rather have the photo/red light system up here than not -- but 
> >Michigan law doesn't allow tickets to be issued without a policeman 
> >having witnessed the incident in person. 
> > 
> > Jon Wennerberg 
> >Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing 
> > Marquette, Michigan 
> > (that's 'way up north) 
> >_______________________________________________ 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
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From jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jan 23 14:05:26 2008
From: jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net (John Thornton)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:05:26 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Rear end efficiency
In-Reply-To: <002e01c85d80$81237200$446b2544@john>
References: <002e01c85d80$81237200$446b2544@john>
Message-ID: <4797AC16.3010308@sbcglobal.net>

The difference inefficiency is because of the difference in the strength.
The 9" has greater strength because it has a larger area of engagement 
between the ring gear and the pinion because the pinion is located lower 
down on the ring gear but the trade off is a slight increase in friction 
causing a slight decrease in efficiency.
The 12 bolt has less engagement between the ring gear and pinion so it 
offers less resistance but less engagement means less strength.
The 9" also offers an internal rear-pinion support for the gear end of 
the pinion to limit gear deflection under high torque loads which 
detracts slightly from efficiency.
Everything I've read shows a 3.5% efficiency difference between the 12 
bolt and the 9".

John Thornton




John Burk wrote:
> Last July Tony Prerra posted that he had done a chassis dyno comparison 
> between a QC , 9" & a 12 bolt dropout . He found the CG was the worst , the 
> 9" was 6 hp better & the dropout was a total of 10 hp better .
>
> I asked for more details and he wrote back :
>
> "Engine was an XO GMC , all ratios were about 2.47:1 , 6200 rpm in high gear 
> , 140 deg , having the dry sump on the rear on or off made little difference 
> , oil temperature made "some" difference , gears were "shot pened" , Synergy 
> nascar qualifying oil "
>
> I assume these were done on the same day . With conventional oil it would 
> seem the differences would be greater and a change from cold to hot would be 
> noticeable .

From saltfever at comcast.net  Wed Jan 23 23:29:24 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:29:24 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Gasket Materials
Message-ID: <00d801c85e52$77778570$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Keith and Mayf, sorry for being late to this party, but here is a thought.
It depends on the specific alloy, but aluminum generally melts around 1150F.
It looses 50% of its strength around 550F-600F. (Except for the new
aluminum-lithium alloys). If your EGT is 1400F-1700F, but the gasket
interface is not that hot due to cooling and radiation, it most certainly
has ZERO compressive strength. You now have a ductile material that will set
(or compress) due to clamping force, vibration, moment loads, etc. It no
longer has the properties that made it a good gasket in the first place.
-Elon



Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008

From: "Keith Turk" kturk at ala.net

You sure it won't ever go over say 1500 degrees?  Hmmm  I'm thinking the
dead soft aluminum in an NA package might be cool.... be just a bit scared
of it with the turbo's...

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 24 17:01:33 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:01:33 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Header Gaskets... once again, lol...
Message-ID: <479926DD.7090603@mayfco.com>

Just received my Weekly/monthy SEMA blurb and in it was a list of new 
products.... Mr. Gasket has solid aluminum (made from 1060 al) header 
flange gaskets for chevies...

mayf

From Rick at RBMotorsports.com  Thu Jan 24 19:45:57 2008
From: Rick at RBMotorsports.com (Rick Byrnes)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:45:57 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Header Gaskets... once again, lol...
References: <479926DD.7090603@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c85efc$6b177c90$6501a8c0@Rick>

YO
I thought we said you can't use aluminum.....
C'mon Doc.  Look for a production part.  I'll bet the mustangs that had 
tubular manifolds had gaskets.
You are using a Ford engine aren't you?
Mr Gasket will sell anything that the kids will buy.
Rick
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Header Gaskets... once again, lol...


> Just received my Weekly/monthy SEMA blurb and in it was a list of new
> products.... Mr. Gasket has solid aluminum (made from 1060 al) header
> flange gaskets for chevies...
>
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as rick at rbmotorsports.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net  Thu Jan 24 20:22:02 2008
From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:22:02 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
Message-ID: <012520080322.14102.479955DA000C8B190000371622058864429C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>

I was told to get 28" rear tires for my roadster, which I did. The car will run this year, maybe in excess of 160 if I didn't screw up too badly.
I need to buy tires for another hot rod, and I'm thinking I could get speed tires to do double duty if necessary. 
The 4.11 gear in my racer's quick change has me thinking a taller tire might work out favorably.
What say ye, cognescenti?

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 24 22:27:35 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:27:35 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <012520080322.14102.479955DA000C8B190000371622058864429C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002901c85f13$00d18e90$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

I like 32"s on the back of  a roadster. 7.00x18 Dunlops ought to do the 
trick...............
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter


> I need to buy tires for another hot rod, and I'm thinking I could get 
> speed tires to do double duty if necessary.
> The 4.11 gear in my racer's quick change has me thinking a taller tire 
> might work out favorably.
> What say ye, cognescenti?

From saltfever at comcast.net  Fri Jan 25 19:10:32 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:10:32 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
Message-ID: <000501c85fc0$a2c506c0$6501a8c0@dim8100>

At more than $420 per tire do you want them to do double duty? I don't know
your other application but if you don't need a certified 200+ mph tire why
not choose something less expensive?  -Elon

 

From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net

I was told to get 28" rear tires for my roadster, which I did. The car will
run this year, maybe in excess of 160 if I didn't screw up too badly.I need
to buy tires for another hot rod, and I'm thinking I could get speed tires
to do double duty if necessary. 

From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net  Fri Jan 25 21:45:30 2008
From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:45:30 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
Message-ID: <012620080445.4266.479ABAEA0009F3B8000010AA22064246139C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>

Elon, you haven't seen me drive! 
I have Frontrunners on the rear of my car. Every time my motor guy's in the garage he looks at 'em and asks, "How you gonna go fast with those things?" He's getting to me.
A guy here in New England bought the Thacker Shine car and sprung for a set of those M/T's last spring, ran them and then put the Dunlops he had back on..
Other nice tires aren't that cheap either. 
Your point taken, however.

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net> 

> At more than $420 per tire do you want them to do double duty? I don't know 
> your other application but if you don't need a certified 200+ mph tire why 
> not choose something less expensive? -Elon 
> 
> 
> 
> From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net 
> 
> I was told to get 28" rear tires for my roadster, which I did. The car will 
> run this year, maybe in excess of 160 if I didn't screw up too badly.I need 
> to buy tires for another hot rod, and I'm thinking I could get speed tires 
> to do double duty if necessary. 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as bobbyhotrods at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 26 16:53:20 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:53:20 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <012620080445.4266.479ABAEA0009F3B8000010AA22064246139C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002201c86076$a19d30e0$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

If you've looked at a Dunlop Vintage you will see a ton of tread. If you go 
to cruises these things fill out a roadster wheel well perfectly. Rod guys 
today spend tons of money on the "conastoga wheels and forklift tires" and 
they ride like s--t.

Coker is reproing some big 18's for the street too but you can't race on 
them. If you drive the tread off the Dunlops and then round the edges you've 
got a great set of B'ville tires. Or you can send them to a tire "scalper" 
and leave the rubber on the floor.

I ran 217 on them stock with out removing any tread at all; just the 
edges...Good Luck, have fun and look good doing it


>
>> At more than $420 per tire do you want them to do double duty? I don't 
>> know
>> your other application but if you don't need a certified 200+ mph tire 
>> why
>> not choose something less expensive? -Elon
>>
>>
>>

>>
>> I was told to get 28" rear tires for my roadster, which I did. The car 
>> will
>> run this year, maybe in excess of 160 if I didn't screw up too badly.I 
>> need
>> to buy tires for another hot rod, and I'm thinking I could get speed 
>> tires
>> to do double duty if necessary.

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 26 18:49:41 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:49:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] 2008 Rule Book
Message-ID: <506348.55059.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Anybody heard anything about when the '08 rule book will be available?
   
  Dick J
  In East Texas

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 26 18:53:31 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:53:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
In-Reply-To: <002201c86076$a19d30e0$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>
Message-ID: <254619.76868.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"J.D. Tone" <gmc6power at earthlink.net> wrote: .. .. .I If you drive the tread off the Dunlops and then round the edges you've got a great set of B'ville tires. Or you can send them to a tire "scalper" and leave the rubber on the floor.
   
  JD, what speed would a set of "scalped" Dunlop tires be approved for?
   
  Dick J
  In East Texas 

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 26 21:23:19 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:23:19 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] 2008 Rule Book
References: <506348.55059.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c8609c$5912ad20$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

According to Dan today at the 2 club board meeting;  the rule book is 
currently at the printerdue to be completed in a few weeks.


Subject: [Land-speed] 2008 Rule Book


> Anybody heard anything about when the '08 rule book will be available?
>
>  Dick J
>  In East Texas

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 26 21:33:00 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:33:00 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <254619.76868.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001801c8609d$b313f260$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

In my opinion only, a speed just before it comes apart......Actually I don't
know. I do not think they are given a speed. I believe a fuel roadster has
lost tread on a shaved 550-18 Dunlop, which is 30", right at 240 mph. I looked
at mine after every run as every one should with their tires of any kind. I
don't believe anyone has spun them to destruction.

If I had a really fast vehicle I would be looking for the new hi speed MT's or
GoodYears. I believe the MT's are 30"

To me keeping a vehicle "hooked up" and not having tire spin will keep them
from coming apart. Slipage and heat are the enemy.
  JD, what speed would a set of "scalped" Dunlop tires be approved for?

  Dick J
  In East Texas


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
now.

From dripps at virginia.edu  Sun Jan 27 12:43:37 2008
From: dripps at virginia.edu (robin dripps)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:43:37 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] tire diameter
Message-ID: <DA8EC036-C0A4-4042-AAC6-E99093D51E6A@virginia.edu>

I was hoping to hear more about JD's comment on running the 32"  
Dunlops on a roadster.   Is there an advantage in stability, any  
possible CD issues?  I currently run the Goodyear LSR 26 inch tires on  
the rear of my E/STR and agree they look too small but are there more  
compelling reasons to go bigger.
Robin Dripps
E/STR 1986

From saltfever at comcast.net  Sun Jan 27 16:46:47 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:46:47 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
Message-ID: <000001c8613e$e803f820$6501a8c0@dim8100>

I don't understand, JD? If the tire is NOT speed-rated for 200+ mph how can
you pass tech? Rules require a 200mph tire to run on records over 200mph,
no?  -Elon

 

From: "J.D. Tone" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>

)Snip . . .) I do not think they are given a speed. I believe a fuel
roadster has lost tread on a shaved 550-18 Dunlop, which is 30", right at
240 mph. I looked at mine after every run as every one should with their
tires of any kind. I don't believe anyone has spun them to destruction.

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 27 17:37:59 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (From saltfever at comcast.net  Sun Jan 27 19:54:24 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:54:24 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
In-Reply-To: <001701c86146$08c9ff80$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>
Message-ID: <000001c86159$18934f30$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Thanks for the information, JD.  Yes, I have looked at the Dunlops but have
never been able to get a speed number from the manufacture.  As you say,
manufacturers are secretive about engineering data when it comes to
liability. I have had a Dunlop bookmark on my computer for 3 years waiting
for a new 200 mph tire for the Lamborghini Murciilago (supposedly a 208 mph
car). It was all marketing swill and the tire was never available to the
public. What I have found with Dunlop is the numbers (when you can get them)
are all in Km/H units and when you do the conversion they fall out in
different 160-180 mph ranges. My Goodyear LSR tires set a max speed of 300
mph (in writing). In fact, the Goodyear LSR tire is the ONLY Goodyear racing
tire that even lists a speed. I heard the MT tires (before the last
brouhaha) also mentioned a finite speed.

I appreciate you cautious approach with the Dunlops and I was aware of the
rule book caveat. However, I thought it had to be backed up with
manufacturer's data. I still have a set of Blue Streaks (stamped for racing
only) that would not be safe over 150 mph.

Its not about finding a loophole or doing an end-run around the rules. It
is about showing up after a year's work and not being sent home on the
trailer! I thought tech was looking for factual information or engineering
data, about a safe speed. I didn't realize that rubber stamped RACING ONLY
was a free pass.  -Elon


-----Original Message-----
From: J.D. Tone
(snip. . . ) What does the line right under speed ratings say??? All
together now page 18
"In excess of 200 MPH: Special tires for racing as designated by the
manufacturer"

 I guess you have never looked at a Dunlop. Embossed in the rubber are the
words "DUNLOP RACING". That was good enough for me when I started using them

on a 196 record. I was not the first. At this time I believe enough
competitors have used them to get an idea of their limits. I do not know of
anyone using them who has not been cautious. There is a gas roadster which
has run them 236 and has not shown a problem. I do not know the weight of
the vehicle or whether it spins the tires.

Remember the SCTA is not in the tire business. Many tire manufacturers will
not answer speed inquires. How many records over 250-400 were set on 40 year

old Firestone Indy tires?

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 27 21:42:31 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:42:31 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <000001c86159$18934f30$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <000601c86168$31dc8dd0$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

Thanks Elon, It's easy to mistake a lawyer looking for blame. I don't know 
if the RACING ONLY is a free pass. Remember the Dunlops we are talking about 
say DUNLOP RACING the "only" is not on them. I went out and looked at one of 
my 700x18's to see how much of the "jibberish" of the normal street tire was 
on it. The only thing is the made in England  and the date/mold code ( with 
a little research I could figure it out). The same thing is true of the 
GoodYear Front runners (not LSR tire) I have run them on the back of my 
roadster to 196. I use 24.5" M & H on the front. None are LSR tires and I 
feel confident. Confident enough to put in my grandson. I'm not trying to 
find a loophole either. I needed taller tires and found others were 
"carefully" testing the Dunlops. I bought a set of 550's and got my son in 
the 2 club and then bought the 700's and got me in. For most LSR guys if you 
don't have exsessive HP and wheel spin these tires are more than 
satisfactory for how we use them. We don't circle Daytona for hours; we run 
on cold salt for 2 minutes.

As an inspector, when I first saw them (Dunlops) my mind started to click. I 
read what they said, looked in the book, and thought here's a guy trying to 
find something that we could use.  I believe the Blockleys (sp?) have been 
tested by our competitors also. I know of one roadster runing them.

When I bought my roadster it came with a set of GY 24" Blue Streaks with a 
BNI 200+ stamp on them. I took them off for the M & H's. Where the stamp 
came from? I don't know but the car started running in the early 70's.

As I have stated as long as we are carefull with them and don't cause 
excessive wheel spin and heat I believe they will perform better than 
expectations. I would hope the association would not outlaw them if someone 
is not careful and has an "dumb s--t" accident. I know we can't outlaw 
stupidity; but keeping it to a minimum would be nice...Once again Good luck



I appreciate you cautious approach with the Dunlops and I was aware of the
rule book caveat. However, I thought it had to be backed up with
manufacturer's data. I still have a set of Blue Streaks (stamped for racing
only) that would not be safe over 150 mph.

It's not about finding a loophole or doing an end-run around the rules. It
is about showing up after a year's work and not being sent home on the
trailer! I thought tech was looking for factual information or engineering
data, about a safe speed. I didn't realize that rubber stamped RACING ONLY
was a free pass.  -Elon

From v4gr at rcn.com  Mon Jan 28 07:55:18 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 06:55:18 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <000001c8613e$e803f820$6501a8c0@dim8100>
	<001701c86146$08c9ff80$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>
Message-ID: <000a01c861bd$cd369a00$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

As I have posted before, Some years ago I was at a Vintage Sports Car event 
at Sears Point and was looking at the Dunlop 18 inch tires. The Dunlop rep 
that I spoke to assured me that the tires are made with the same material 
and methods as current race tires. And that they are safer then any 20 or 30 
year old tire. After that I bought mine and found that some others had been 
using them for a while before me. To much pickyness and book reading may 
change things in the future.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J.D. Tone" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>
To: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>; "'land-speedsubmit'" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter


> It looks like I need to state a few things. First I do not speak for the
> SCTA. I'm a competitor who has volunteered to inspected vehicles for 
> safety
> according to the SCTA Rule Book. I volunteer help in impounds to determine
> engine displacement. I comment here because I hate to see folks make the
> same mistakes others including me have made. That's 
> it..............Period.
> Stating during inspection that JD said "....." will get my never ending
> silent treatment and probably laughed at. Next year I won't be inspecting 
> at
> all.
>
> What does the line right under speed ratings say??? All together now page 
> 18
> "In excess of 200 MPH: Special tires for racing as designated by the
> manufacturer"
>
> I guess you have never looked at a Dunlop. Embossed in the rubber are the
> words "DUNLOP RACING". That was good enough for me when I started using 
> them
> on a 196 record. I was not the first. At this time I believe enough
> competitors have used them to get an idea of their limits. I do not know 
> of
> anyone using them who has not been cautious. There is a gas roadster which
> has run them 236 and has not shown a problem. I do not know the weight of
> the vehicle or whether it spins the tires.
>
> LSR, as all high speed endeavors, is a risky busness. You accept the risk
> when you build or buy a car or chassis. You accept the risk when you get 
> in
> it. You accept the risk when you purchase many of the items in or on it.
>
> Remember the SCTA is not in the tire business. Many tire manufacturers 
> will
> not answer speed inquires. How many records over 250-400 were set on 40 
> year
> old Firestone Indy tires?
>
> I do not like to discourage anyone but if you cannot accept this; perhaps
> Top Fuel drag racing is for you where you get to run a spec tested tire
> which of course is safe and would never blow up or explode. Once again 
> Good
> Luck
>
>
>
>>I don't understand, JD? If the tire is NOT speed-rated for 200+ mph how 
>>can
>> you pass tech? Rules require a 200mph tire to run on records over 200mph,
>> no?  -Elon

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Jan 28 16:03:20 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:03:20 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
In-Reply-To: <012620080445.4266.479ABAEA0009F3B8000010AA22064246139C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>
References: <012620080445.4266.479ABAEA0009F3B8000010AA22064246139C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <479E5F38.8020709@mayfco.com>

If you are going more than 200 you need a real race tire oer the rule 
book. If the class you are rcing in is over 200 then you will need the 
real race tires. Z rated will not do it. And do not use the drag race 
front runners on the back end of the car. Only LSR front runners back 
there as the others are not made as drive wheels as I understand it.

mayf
bobbyhotrods at comcast.net wrote:

>Elon, you haven't seen me drive! 
>I have Frontrunners on the rear of my car. Every time my motor guy's in the garage he looks at 'em and asks, "How you gonna go fast with those things?" He's getting to me.
>A guy here in New England bought the Thacker Shine car and sprung for a set of those M/T's last spring, ran them and then put the Dunlops he had back on..
>Other nice tires aren't that cheap either. 
>Your point taken, however.
>
>-------------- Original message -------------- 
>From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net> 
>
>  
>
>>At more than $420 per tire do you want them to do double duty? I don't know 
>>your other application but if you don't need a certified 200+ mph tire why 
>>not choose something less expensive? -Elon 
>>
>>
>>
>>From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net 
>>
>>I was told to get 28" rear tires for my roadster, which I did. The car will 
>>run this year, maybe in excess of 160 if I didn't screw up too badly.I need 
>>to buy tires for another hot rod, and I'm thinking I could get speed tires 
>>to do double duty if necessary. 
>>_______________________________________________ 
>>Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
>>
>>Land-speed mailing list 
>>
>>You are subscribed as bobbyhotrods at comcast.net 
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From Joetimney at dol.net  Wed Jan 30 04:33:00 2008
From: Joetimney at dol.net (Joe Timney)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 06:33:00 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Services for Mike Shedd
Message-ID: <47A0606C.2040705@dol.net>

Mike Shedd was one of our most colorful Motorcycle Inspectors and a 
fellow competitor. It was not uncommon to see Mike spend all weekend 
inspecting in the blazing sun. ECTA will miss him.

Arrangements:
2/23/08 @ 6pm
Community of Christ Church
3315 Francis Road
Milton, GA 30004-3126

If anyone has pictures of Mike, please email them to his daughter at 
courtneywindey at yahoo.com. Her number is 212.920.5664

Joe Timney
President
ECTA

From saltfever at comcast.net  Sun Jan 27 16:46:47 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:46:47 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
Message-ID: <000001c8613e$e803f820$6501a8c0@dim8100>

I don't understand, JD? If the tire is NOT speed-rated for 200+ mph how can
you pass tech? Rules require a 200mph tire to run on records over 200mph,
no?  -Elon

 

From: "J.D. Tone" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>

)Snip . . .) I do not think they are given a speed. I believe a fuel
roadster has lost tread on a shaved 550-18 Dunlop, which is 30", right at
240 mph. I looked at mine after every run as every one should with their
tires of any kind. I don't believe anyone has spun them to destruction.

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 27 17:37:59 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:37:59 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <000001c8613e$e803f820$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <001701c86146$08c9ff80$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

It looks like I need to state a few things. First I do not speak for the 
SCTA. I'm a competitor who has volunteered to inspected vehicles for safety 
according to the SCTA Rule Book. I volunteer help in impounds to determine 
engine displacement. I comment here because I hate to see folks make the 
same mistakes others including me have made. That's it..............Period. 
Stating during inspection that JD said "....." will get my never ending 
silent treatment and probably laughed at. Next year I won't be inspecting at 
all.

What does the line right under speed ratings say??? All together now page 18 
"In excess of 200 MPH: Special tires for racing as designated by the 
manufacturer"

 I guess you have never looked at a Dunlop. Embossed in the rubber are the 
words "DUNLOP RACING". That was good enough for me when I started using them 
on a 196 record. I was not the first. At this time I believe enough 
competitors have used them to get an idea of their limits. I do not know of 
anyone using them who has not been cautious. There is a gas roadster which 
has run them 236 and has not shown a problem. I do not know the weight of 
the vehicle or whether it spins the tires.

LSR, as all high speed endeavors, is a risky busness. You accept the risk 
when you build or buy a car or chassis. You accept the risk when you get in 
it. You accept the risk when you purchase many of the items in or on it.

Remember the SCTA is not in the tire business. Many tire manufacturers will 
not answer speed inquires. How many records over 250-400 were set on 40 year 
old Firestone Indy tires?

I do not like to discourage anyone but if you cannot accept this; perhaps 
Top Fuel drag racing is for you where you get to run a spec tested tire 
which of course is safe and would never blow up or explode. Once again Good 
Luck



>I don't understand, JD? If the tire is NOT speed-rated for 200+ mph how can
> you pass tech? Rules require a 200mph tire to run on records over 200mph,
> no?  -Elon

From v4gr at rcn.com  Mon Jan 28 07:55:18 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 06:55:18 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <000001c8613e$e803f820$6501a8c0@dim8100>
	<001701c86146$08c9ff80$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>
Message-ID: <000a01c861bd$cd369a00$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

As I have posted before, Some years ago I was at a Vintage Sports Car event 
at Sears Point and was looking at the Dunlop 18 inch tires. The Dunlop rep 
that I spoke to assured me that the tires are made with the same material 
and methods as current race tires. And that they are safer then any 20 or 30 
year old tire. After that I bought mine and found that some others had been 
using them for a while before me. To much pickyness and book reading may 
change things in the future.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J.D. Tone" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>
To: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>; "'land-speedsubmit'" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter


> It looks like I need to state a few things. First I do not speak for the
> SCTA. I'm a competitor who has volunteered to inspected vehicles for 
> safety
> according to the SCTA Rule Book. I volunteer help in impounds to determine
> engine displacement. I comment here because I hate to see folks make the
> same mistakes others including me have made. That's 
> it..............Period.
> Stating during inspection that JD said "....." will get my never ending
> silent treatment and probably laughed at. Next year I won't be inspecting 
> at
> all.
>
> What does the line right under speed ratings say??? All together now page 
> 18
> "In excess of 200 MPH: Special tires for racing as designated by the
> manufacturer"
>
> I guess you have never looked at a Dunlop. Embossed in the rubber are the
> words "DUNLOP RACING". That was good enough for me when I started using 
> them
> on a 196 record. I was not the first. At this time I believe enough
> competitors have used them to get an idea of their limits. I do not know 
> of
> anyone using them who has not been cautious. There is a gas roadster which
> has run them 236 and has not shown a problem. I do not know the weight of
> the vehicle or whether it spins the tires.
>
> LSR, as all high speed endeavors, is a risky busness. You accept the risk
> when you build or buy a car or chassis. You accept the risk when you get 
> in
> it. You accept the risk when you purchase many of the items in or on it.
>
> Remember the SCTA is not in the tire business. Many tire manufacturers 
> will
> not answer speed inquires. How many records over 250-400 were set on 40 
> year
> old Firestone Indy tires?
>
> I do not like to discourage anyone but if you cannot accept this; perhaps
> Top Fuel drag racing is for you where you get to run a spec tested tire
> which of course is safe and would never blow up or explode. Once again 
> Good
> Luck
>
>
>
>>I don't understand, JD? If the tire is NOT speed-rated for 200+ mph how 
>>can
>> you pass tech? Rules require a 200mph tire to run on records over 200mph,
>> no?  -Elon

From saltracer at awwwsome.com  Mon Jan 28 08:35:37 2008
From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:35:37 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [Land-speed] Tire Diameter
References: <000001c86159$18934f30$6501a8c0@dim8100>
	<000601c86168$31dc8dd0$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>
Message-ID: <479DF649.00001C.02828@D3DP98F1>

Hello to all,

This tire situation has been foremost in our minds for a long time. They say
that you never miss something until it gone. It use to be simple, just go to
Inglewood Tire and pick up some used Indy Tires for a few bucks and go
racing. After a time, Indy changed the tire configuration and these were no
longer available to us. However, Al Teague ran some of these 30 year old
tires which performed better for him than the Goodyears that were available.
I am sure that Firestone did not rate these at 400 MPH.

Has anyone checked with Gene Burkland about this Dunlop tire. He has tested
many different tires.  From my experience and information I have received,
the most important things that you look in a tire at is the basic structure
and how much rubber is on it. In our venue of racing, centrifugal force
plays a big part in whether a tire will survive. The less rubber the less
weight  to be acted upon by that force. Another concern is how much power
you are putting through the tire. I know some had trouble with the Goodyear
Front Runners on their drive wheels.

What we do is always on the edge. The reason the tire manufacturers are
reluctant to put forth a speed rating on a tire is the liability issue. All
the waivers in the world don't mean much when a case goes to court. My
advice is to get the best tire available for your particular situation, make
sure you have the correct air pressure in it and that the tire has adequate
clearances, get rid of the excess rubber and go racing. The Dunlop in
question appears to be on a very good carcass. I just needs to have the
excess rubber removed. I run the M&H Front Runners unmassaged. We have run
250 mph without problems. I understand that if they are shaved, they are
good to 300+.

We were in a critical position with tire so I purchased four of the Mickey
Thompson 7.00X18"'s. That is overkill for my car, but all I have to concern
myself with is front tires now.

Tom, Redding CA - #216 D/FCC

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_pets_cat1_en.gif]

From mactem at mebtel.net  Wed Jan 30 15:56:00 2008
From: mactem at mebtel.net (Mobley-Anderson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:56:00 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Services for Mike Shedd
Message-ID: <01ab01c86393$48861bf0$0300a8c0@brightstar>

I enjoyed hanging out with Mike.  He always had a great story to tell
and could tell it well.  I will miss his humor and wit.
David

From adin at frontier.net  Wed Jan 30 21:16:14 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (adin at frontier.net)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:16:14 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Studebaker
Message-ID: <20080130211614.p6sdnnia040ck8kw@webmail.brainstorminternet.net>

Not much info, but fun.  Seems like there should be a little more power??


http://1320video.com/Studebaker.php

enjoy,

David

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 09:42:05 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:42:05 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications
Message-ID: <9CC706D9-64D1-4E3F-A706-F885724AB13B@comcast.net>

Cheaper electricity could make battery power and hydrogen production  
more affordable.  This is interesting!

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 31 14:58:19 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:58:19 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications
In-Reply-To: <9CC706D9-64D1-4E3F-A706-F885724AB13B@comcast.net>
References: <9CC706D9-64D1-4E3F-A706-F885724AB13B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47A2447B.7050900@mayfco.com>

Wes, you are just too funny! We wont even bury waste in Yucky Mountain 
here so what are we going to do with a country full of nuclear waste? 
Say they sell 10,000 of these to American users... who gets the boill 
for dumping the wastes? Where does it go? And how long will it take the 
NRC to approve this thing? Right now the environmental impact statement 
can take 10 years to get through the system and that includes no 
construction time at all. Then where do we get lithium 6 isotops for the 
nuetron absorber?  I think I will let the first accident be in Japan, 
lol...

and yet... nah...to many side effects, mainly watse products... remember 
our plants were originally going to make power too cheap to meter! Well, 
that certainly didn't happen.

I wonder what these doohickeys cost? A big plant has a 1000 megawatts 
electrical and about 3000 megawatts thermal energy... 100x smaller that 
would be 10 megawatts and 30 megawatts thermal. That is a LOT of waste 
heat...

nah, I'll pass...

but clever, none the less... but wait...maybe we coould sell them to the 
Taliban or Islamic countries? Tell them that it is absolutely safe?

mayf
Wester Potter wrote:

>Cheaper electricity could make battery power and hydrogen production  
>more affordable.  This is interesting!
>
>http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Thu Jan 31 15:48:42 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:48:42 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications
References: <9CC706D9-64D1-4E3F-A706-F885724AB13B@comcast.net>
	<47A2447B.7050900@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <002101c8645b$705a5970$6501a8c0@S>

.......While my grandchildren are hiding from the sun in the back of their
dark cave and their Mom is delighted because she just bought an old tire
carcass for only $3800 that she could make shoes out of.
Ed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "Wester Potter" <wester6935 at comcast.net>
Cc: "LAND SPEED LIST" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications

>   I think I will let the first accident be in Japan,
> lol...

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 31 17:36:12 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:36:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications
Message-ID: <2417.83634.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The article indicates that it produces 200 kW.

If they are marketing it towards running a single building, I suppose the waste heat could be used for heating the apartment building and providing hot water.  I think I'll pass on renting there though...

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: Wester Potter <wester6935 at comcast.net>
Cc: LAND SPEED LIST <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:58:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications

Wes, you are just too funny! We wont even bury waste in Yucky Mountain 
here so what are we going to do with a country full of nuclear waste? 
Say they sell 10,000 of these to American users... who gets the boill 
for dumping the wastes? Where does it go? And how long will it take the 
NRC to approve this thing? Right now the environmental impact statement 
can take 10 years to get through the system and that includes no 
construction time at all. Then where do we get lithium 6 isotops for the 
nuetron absorber?  I think I will let the first accident be in Japan, 
lol...

and yet... nah...to many side effects, mainly watse products... remember 
our plants were originally going to make power too cheap to meter! Well, 
that certainly didn't happen.

I wonder what these doohickeys cost? A big plant has a 1000 megawatts 
electrical and about 3000 megawatts thermal energy... 100x smaller that 
would be 10 megawatts and 30 megawatts thermal. That is a LOT of waste 
heat...

nah, I'll pass...

but clever, none the less... but wait...maybe we coould sell them to the 
Taliban or Islamic countries? Tell them that it is absolutely safe?

mayf


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From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Jan 31 18:10:23 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:10:23 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications
In-Reply-To: <2417.83634.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2417.83634.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47A2717F.90602@mayfco.com>

Yeah, after I wrote the note, I saw the 200 kilowatt output. I do not 
know what the scaled to get down from to get to that number but my math 
says only 20 megawatts. Most of our reactors are really big, lol... and 
still thermal energy is about 3 to 1 in electical output. so still 600 
kilowatts of heat has to go somewhere.  We designed a shipping cask for 
exxon in the good old days at Boeing and were gonna ship 12 fuel bundles 
just out of the reactor 90 days and each of those still produced 26 kw 
of heat. That was enough to make the cask steam if rain fell on it...  I 
suppose that the reactor and generator system would not necessarily have 
to be really high pressure to get 200 kw.. but like you, I want to move 
upwind of the apt building..

mayf
Mike Lackey wrote:

>The article indicates that it produces 200 kW.
>
>If they are marketing it towards running a single building, I suppose the waste heat could be used for heating the apartment building and providing hot water.  I think I'll pass on renting there though...
>
>Mike
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com>
>To: Wester Potter <wester6935 at comcast.net>
>Cc: LAND SPEED LIST <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:58:19 PM
>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Non LSR but w/implications
>
>Wes, you are just too funny! We wont even bury waste in Yucky Mountain 
>here so what are we going to do with a country full of nuclear waste? 
>Say they sell 10,000 of these to American users... who gets the boill 
>for dumping the wastes? Where does it go? And how long will it take the 
>NRC to approve this thing? Right now the environmental impact statement 
>can take 10 years to get through the system and that includes no 
>construction time at all. Then where do we get lithium 6 isotops for the 
>nuetron absorber?  I think I will let the first accident be in Japan, 
>lol...
>
>and yet... nah...to many side effects, mainly watse products... remember 
>our plants were originally going to make power too cheap to meter! Well, 
>that certainly didn't happen.
>
>I wonder what these doohickeys cost? A big plant has a 1000 megawatts 
>electrical and about 3000 megawatts thermal energy... 100x smaller that 
>would be 10 megawatts and 30 megawatts thermal. That is a LOT of waste 
>heat...
>
>nah, I'll pass...
>
>but clever, none the less... but wait...maybe we coould sell them to the 
>Taliban or Islamic countries? Tell them that it is absolutely safe?
>
>mayf
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
>Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping