From dwarner230 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 06:44:56 2008
From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 06:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Racing but not LSR
In-Reply-To: <47F1BC4A.2020600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <294770.60930.qm@web52501.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Doug,
   
  This is as interesting as the P51 video you sent a couple of weeks ago.
   
  DW

DougOdom <dlodom at charter.net> wrote:
  Check out this raceway idea. Looks like its going to be next to the old 
Castle Air Force base if it does get built. Yesterday was the first I 
had heard of it. Interesting concept. Doug Odom in big ditch
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed


       
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

From dlodom at charter.net  Tue Apr  1 07:16:03 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 07:16:03 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Racing but not LSR
Message-ID: <47F243A3.2030300@charter.net>

Check out this raceway idea. Looks like its going to be next to the old
Castle Air Force base if it does get built. Yesterday was the first I
had heard of it. Interesting concept.        Doug  Odom in big ditch

For some reason my mail program is deleting the addresses.
  So try  www rmsracing dot com

From dlodom at charter.net  Tue Apr  1 08:56:57 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 08:56:57 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] The real address
Message-ID: <004001c89411$03c18c30$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>

OK   OK   I'm sorry.   The real address about the rac track is
www.rmpracing.com
I've blocked my spam outgoing mail program so you should get it this time.
Sorry , Doug

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Tue Apr  1 10:53:20 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:53:20 EDT
Subject: [Land-speed] Racing but not LSR
Message-ID: <c33.2b635759.3523d090@aol.com>

If you check out an aerial shot from Google, the original Castle AFB runway  
totals over 14000 ft, seems a shame it can't also be utilized for LSR. It's 
also  300 ft wide. A lot of cars could run two miles, comparable in top speed to 
the  short course at The Salt. That's IF the course is in decent shape  
throughout, and IF the cars had proper braking. 
Bob, knows runways, W



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL 
Home.      
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

From lgmcafee at mchsi.com  Tue Apr  1 12:01:00 2008
From: lgmcafee at mchsi.com (Larry McAfee)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:01:00 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorsport complex
Message-ID: <000a01c8942a$ba6d9460$6402a8c0@Macattack>

After reading RPM web site it sounds just like the one that is slated to go in
about 20 miles north of here (Columbia Mo.) that was in all the papers. Carl
Edwards Father was reported to be one of the backers. I sure hope it goes
thru, I might even try a little drag racing with a track that close.

Larry Mac

From desotoman at dslextreme.com  Tue Apr  1 12:51:07 2008
From: desotoman at dslextreme.com (Tom Gerardi)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:51:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Land-speed] Temple Roadster and the Dry Lakes Racing Hall of Fame.
Message-ID: <12210ab11ba1d49af141a.20080401115107.qrfbgbzna@www.dslextreme.com>

Hello Fellow SCTA members,

Pretty soon all SCTA clubs will be voting for cars and people to enter the
Dry Lakes Racing Hall of Fame. I would like you to consider the Temple
Roadster for the Historical Vehicle.

Reason? According to Greg Temple it was the first car to get both Father
and Son into the El Mirage Dirty Two Club, and also got both Bill and Greg
into the Bonneville 200MPH Club. I purchased the car a couple of years ago
and have not changed anything on it, so I was thinking before I change
anything now would be a good time to suggest it for Historical Vehicle for
the Dry Lakes Racing Hall of Fame.

Here is an email I received from Greg after I bought the car:


-------------- Original message from "GREG TEMPLE" <gotcha11 at msn.com>:
--------------


Tom, the car was first run in 1974.Dad entered both 2 clubs in 1976 with
records in AA/BGR.Elmirage 201.79 and bonneville at 220.In 1977 I started
driving.I entered El mirage 2 club in 1979 @ 201.97.We were the first
father son in elmirage 2 club.We broke D/BFR at bonneville in 1981 @ 241
with top speed of 249.IN 1991 set the A/BFR @ 261 which was broke last
year by Duane Mckinney.Greg

From: desotoman at att.net
To: GREG TEMPLE
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: history

Thanks, Greg. Back in the 80's was the car white and blue? If so when did
you change to red? Also has the number 208 always been the number on the
car? Thanks for your help. Tom


The car was originally white with a purple frame.the first time we ran it
it was #200 but found out someone else had the number and we had to
change,it was 208 ever since.we went to black frame early 80s for ease of
maintenance.I painted the car red in 1995 as they were complaining they
couldnt see white cars coming down the track.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This car still holds the D/BFR record at Bonneville set back in 1981 with
Greg driving. The car last ran Bonneville in 2000 and the motor blew up.
Attached are some pictures of the car on the Salt.

Thanks for your consideration,

Tom Gerardi

PS. This is not for me, this is to honor Greg and Bill's accomplishments
over the years they ran the car. If you like this idea please forward this
email to other members of the SCTA and Members of the Dry Lakes Racing
Hall of Fame.

PPS. The pictures can be seen on Landracing.com under Misc posts.

From dlodom at charter.net  Tue Apr  1 13:27:43 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:27:43 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorsport complex
References: <000a01c8942a$ba6d9460$6402a8c0@Macattack>
Message-ID: <006201c89436$d96af770$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>

Larry,  Sorry I screwed up the address. It's rmp not rpm. Stands for 
Riverside Motorsports Park.  It is in central California north of Fresno and 
south of Modesto. Ican't type or spell right.     Doug Odom in big ditch
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry McAfee" <lgmcafee at mchsi.com>
To: "land speed" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:01 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorsport complex


> After reading RPM web site it sounds just like the one that is slated to 
> go in
> about 20 miles north of here (Columbia Mo.) that was in all the papers. 
> Carl
> Edwards Father was reported to be one of the backers. I sure hope it goes
> thru, I might even try a little drag racing with a track that close.
>
> Larry Mac

From lgmcafee at mchsi.com  Tue Apr  1 13:59:01 2008
From: lgmcafee at mchsi.com (Larry McAfee)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:59:01 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorsport Part
Message-ID: <000d01c8943b$36b03cc0$6402a8c0@Macattack>

Larry,  Sorry I screwed up the address. It's rmp not rpm. Stands for
Riverside Motorsports Park.  It is in central California north of Fresno and
south of Modesto. Ican't type or spell right.     Doug Odom in big ditch

Doug I saw your correction before I posted the note,I was the one that got
screwed up. Something about old age I guess.
Larry Mac

From saltfevr at q.com  Tue Apr  1 14:37:46 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:37:46 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Motorsport complex
In-Reply-To: <006201c89436$d96af770$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>
References: <000a01c8942a$ba6d9460$6402a8c0@Macattack>
	<006201c89436$d96af770$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>
Message-ID: <BAY122-W279D7AB785F08DEFE1E9FAC9F50@phx.gbl>

Doug;

If this place gets built in its entirety, it wil be off the hook!! And I
thought Utahs Motorsports Park was cool as it begins its 3rd racing year.
http://www.milermotorsportspark.comThanks again Doug and good luck to you
Central Valley racers & fans. Hope it comes about!

Tom ShannonMagna, Utah> From: dlodom at charter.net> To: lgmcafee at mchsi.com;
land-speed at autox.team.net> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:27:43 -0700> Subject: Re:
[Land-speed] Motorsport complex> > Larry, Sorry I screwed up the address. It's
rmp not rpm. Stands for > Riverside Motorsports Park. It is in central
California north of Fresno and > south of Modesto. Ican't type or spell right.
Doug Odom in big ditch> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry McAfee"
<lgmcafee at mchsi.com>> To: "land speed" <land-speed at autox.team.net>> Sent:
Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:01 PM> Subject: [Land-speed] Motorsport complex> >
> > After reading RPM web site it sounds just like the one that is slated to >
> go in> > about 20 miles north of here (Columbia Mo.) that was in all the
papers. > > Carl> > Edwards Father was reported to be one of the backers. I
sure hope it goes> > thru, I might even try a little drag racing with a track
that close.> >> > Larry Mac> _______________________________________________>
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> >
You are subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ed at vetteracing.com  Tue Apr  1 19:37:21 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:37:21 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Tuning Parameters for 302 / 5.0 L Ford
Message-ID: <W380628888262831207103841@webmail30>

Heads are too small.........
Ed



-----Original Message-----
From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 08:20 AM
To: 'LSR', tigers at autox.team.net, tweecer at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Land-speed] Tuning Parameters for 302 / 5.0 L Ford

Folks, I am trying to compare my tuning with what others have used
successfully. Just a par tof my yearly routine to get the World's Fastest
Sunbeam (wannabe) ready for the summer festivities on the salt flats.I am
going to give the partiulars for my motor. Please send me information only for
Ford 302 / 5.0L as that data for chevies, dodges, or any other make does not
help me at all! Just hit the delete button and press on, please.My
motor:306.11 CIDAFR 205cc heads (2.08 / 1.60 valves) 64 cc chamber8.5:1 forged
pistonsTurbocharged (but send any data for any kind of boosted motor, not NOS
though)I am primarily interested in the spark and fuel maps you are using for
this kind of combo. Include the boost level you are using, please. Ditto for
mechanical advance bwing used.I will answer any and all responses and can even
send my spark and fuel maps for you viewing pleasure...hurry... want to hit
the dyno in aprilmayf

From saltfever at comcast.net  Tue Apr  1 22:10:32 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 22:10:32 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Racing but not LSR
Message-ID: <000001c8947f$e388a600$6501a8c0@dim8100>

The ACTIVE runway is 11,802 but if you include the displaced threshold at
each end it is close to your 14k number. I have landed there a few times and
the south 1,000 ft threshold and runway would be suitable for LSR.  However,
the north 1,000 ft was in ill repair and would be very expensive to fix
since it is about 12" thick concrete. The runway is 150 ft wide and not 300
ft. It has been a few years since I have been there, but there is a very
nice air museum. The airport is an active county airport (a gift from the
Air force) and it could not be used for racing. RRP is a development on
1,200 acres near by, but not next to the airport. There is a Federal High
Security Prison near the south end. Maybe prisoners could be course workers!
-Elon



From: BWANA343 at aol.com

If you check out an aerial shot from Google, the original Castle AFB runway


totals over 14000 ft, seems a shame it can't also be utilized for LSR. It's

also 300 ft wide.

From jon.the.wise at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 00:23:05 2008
From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jonathan)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 00:23:05 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Tuning Parameters for 302 / 5.0 L Ford
In-Reply-To: <W380628888262831207103841@webmail30>
References: <W380628888262831207103841@webmail30>
Message-ID: <5f048ef70804020023m28ff3a8cyf9d35a62e45195e1@mail.gmail.com>

Also, you didn't mention anything about cams. Turbo applications respond
poorly to much overlap. This is actually true of most boosted applications
(turbo- and super-charger both, though the latter handles overlap better
than the former)

~Jon

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Ed Van Scoy <ed at vetteracing.com> wrote:

> Heads are too small.........
> Ed
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 08:20 AM
> To: 'LSR', tigers at autox.team.net, tweecer at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Land-speed] Tuning Parameters for 302 / 5.0 L Ford
>
> Folks, I am trying to compare my tuning with what others have used
> successfully. Just a par tof my yearly routine to get the World's Fastest
> Sunbeam (wannabe) ready for the summer festivities on the salt flats.I am
> going to give the partiulars for my motor. Please send me information only
> for
> Ford 302 / 5.0L as that data for chevies, dodges, or any other make does
> not
> help me at all! Just hit the delete button and press on, please.My
> motor:306.11 CIDAFR 205cc heads (2.08 / 1.60 valves) 64 cc chamber8.5:1
> forged
> pistonsTurbocharged (but send any data for any kind of boosted motor, not
> NOS
> though)I am primarily interested in the spark and fuel maps you are using
> for
> this kind of combo. Include the boost level you are using, please. Ditto
> for
> mechanical advance bwing used.I will answer any and all responses and can
> even
> send my spark and fuel maps for you viewing pleasure...hurry... want to
> hit
> the dyno in aprilmayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as jon.the.wise at gmail.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>



-- 
~Jon

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Wed Apr  2 05:45:30 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:45:30 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR, Rubicon Trail
Message-ID: <2AEF5B00-E0C2-4CD2-808D-6E2A3D0B0A2D@comcast.net>

I've been invited to go along on a Jeep ride over the Rubicon Trail by  
my brother-in-law.  He's a hard core rock crawler and did the Rubicon  
last year for his first time.

Does anyone have first hand experience with the trip as to what to  
take and what not to take?  I want to take my old 35 mm SLR camera  
case.  It's dustproof, waterproof and should be fine for the trip.
Anything else will go in a soft duffle bag and be carried in a carrier  
on top of the roll cage.

My only personal experience with the Lake Tahoe area was many years  
ago, on ski trips, where we rented a house and filled every bit of  
floor and deck space with sleeping bags.  I don't plan on digging the  
Jeep out of four feet of snow like my last experience up there.  On  
another winter trip in the 1960's driving in an Oldsmobile Toronado,  
the authorities made us put chains on the tires before we could go  
over I-80 between Reno and Sacramento.  When we started to put them on  
the front wheels we were informed by the laughing official that they  
went on the rear.  We chained up the rears and happily made it over  
the pass with no problems.

Any Rubicon tips would be welcome.  It sounds like a great three day  
trip.

Wes

From dlodom at charter.net  Wed Apr  2 07:18:07 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 07:18:07 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 2008 rule book question.
Message-ID: <47F3959F.1060205@charter.net>

Yesterday I tried to find the rule about the helmet area restriction of 
movement. I can't find it. I know I've seen it some where before.
 Case of Total  brain fade?
Doug Odom going crazy in big ditch

From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Apr  2 07:31:54 2008
From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:31:54 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] 2008 rule book question.
In-Reply-To: <47F3959F.1060205@charter.net>
References: <47F3959F.1060205@charter.net>
Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A4A3D2D@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>

Section 3.A.2 Drivers Helmet
Section 3.A.3 Drivers Helmet Support
Section 3.C Headrest

Starts on page 23

Mike Meierle
#847 F/P/MP
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
ECTA Record Holder



-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+mike.meierle=alcatel-lucent.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+mike.meierle=alcatel-lucent.com at autox.team.ne
t] On Behalf Of DougOdom
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 10:18 AM
To: LandSpeed List
Subject: [Land-speed] 2008 rule book question.

Yesterday I tried to find the rule about the helmet area restriction of
movement. I can't find it. I know I've seen it some where before.
 Case of Total  brain fade?
Doug Odom going crazy in big ditch
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as mike.meierle at alcatel-lucent.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From wester6935 at comcast.net  Wed Apr  2 09:07:57 2008
From: wester6935 at comcast.net (Wester Potter)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:07:57 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd: LSR News
References: <003201c894dc$290d1ba0$1800a8c0@WSAPR.local>
Message-ID: <524AD1DA-7E52-4F7D-93E6-F99ED7C4A529@comcast.net>

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Ron Christensen" <ron.christensen at wsapr.com>
> Date: April 2, 2008 10:11:06 AM MDT
> To: "W S Potter" <wester6935 at comcast.net>, "Jon Wennerberg" <jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org 
> >, <hcgarage at comcast.net>, "George C" <ElMGeo at aol.com>, "Dave  
> Pinkney" <pinkelko at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LSR News
>
> LSR news:
>
> http://www.thisisdorset.net/display.var.2155899.0.land_speed_record_designer_dies_at_75.php

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Apr  2 09:50:51 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:50:51 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR, Rubicon Trail
In-Reply-To: <2AEF5B00-E0C2-4CD2-808D-6E2A3D0B0A2D@comcast.net>
References: <2AEF5B00-E0C2-4CD2-808D-6E2A3D0B0A2D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00d201c894e1$b770baf0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Wes;

Any off- road adventure needs warm clothing, communications gear (cell
phone), and water. A few energy bars would be a good idea for emergencies.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
-----Original Message-----


From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Wester Potter
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 5:46 AM
To: LAND SPEED LIST
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR, Rubicon Trail

I've been invited to go along on a Jeep ride over the Rubicon Trail by  
my brother-in-law.  He's a hard core rock crawler and did the Rubicon  
last year for his first time.

Does anyone have first hand experience with the trip as to what to  
take and what not to take?  I want to take my old 35 mm SLR camera  
case.  It's dustproof, waterproof and should be fine for the trip.
Anything else will go in a soft duffle bag and be carried in a carrier  
on top of the roll cage.

My only personal experience with the Lake Tahoe area was many years  
ago, on ski trips, where we rented a house and filled every bit of  
floor and deck space with sleeping bags.  I don't plan on digging the  
Jeep out of four feet of snow like my last experience up there.  On  
another winter trip in the 1960's driving in an Oldsmobile Toronado,  
the authorities made us put chains on the tires before we could go  
over I-80 between Reno and Sacramento.  When we started to put them on  
the front wheels we were informed by the laughing official that they  
went on the rear.  We chained up the rears and happily made it over  
the pass with no problems.

Any Rubicon tips would be welcome.  It sounds like a great three day  
trip.

Wes
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Wed Apr  2 10:03:24 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:03:24 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR, Rubicon Trail
In-Reply-To: <00d201c894e1$b770baf0$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D16B5D@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

Having spent decades photographing the American West (former life) self
contained I offer the following:

You can't have too much of what you may need!
(beer,water,food,film,batteries,etc)

Cell service "might" be available on the interstate  (a lot of places
I've traveled are "iffy") and probably NO SERVICE very far from
pavement.

GPS: when you make the call  ("We are in dire need of beer, hookers and
a steak") just give them your lat/long and the chopper will land on your
head. [1]

Have fun, be prepared, take everything (toilet paper - leaves become
tiresome after a few days)

Best,

David in Durango

[1] or not.  I ran out of gas on a "major" highway about dark thirty one
winter night;  "Hello, 911?  I'm out of gas, its 4 degrees and the wind
is out of the north at about 35mph . . ."  911 responds:  "That is not
considered an emergency."


Wes;

Any off- road adventure needs warm clothing, communications gear (cell
phone), and water. A few energy bars would be a good idea for
emergencies.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
-----Original Message-----

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Wed Apr  2 11:21:32 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:21:32 -0800
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR, Rubicon Trail
References: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D16B5D@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>
Message-ID: <002d01c894ee$6670e0a0$6401a8c0@S>

Wes -- Prepare to encounter pretty warm temperatures and little wind down in
the canyon. It can be daytime 50F and blowing wind up on the Interstate (and
drop to +10 at night) and a dead still 95F several thousand feet below in
the canyon.  Also, there maybe times when you'll have to get out of the
vehicle and follow it while it crawls over parts of the "road".  Bring
appropriate shoes that can also handle hiking through wet places.  A small
stuff sack that holds toilet paper and a lightweight trowel to dig and cover
the appropriate hole in the ground is real handy.  There maybe a few times
when you'll want to climb to spots, such as good photo angles, that require
your hands to be available for climbing and mild bushwhacking.  A small
daypack is perfect for that.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adin, David" <DavidAdin at mercydurango.org>
To: <neil at dbelltech.com>; "Wester Potter" <wester6935 at comcast.net>;
"LANDSPEED LIST" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Non LSR, Rubicon Trail


> Having spent decades photographing the American West (former life) self
> contained I offer the following:
>
> You can't have too much of what you may need!
> (beer,water,food,film,batteries,etc)
>
> Cell service "might" be available on the interstate  (a lot of places
> I've traveled are "iffy") and probably NO SERVICE very far from
> pavement.
>
> GPS: when you make the call  ("We are in dire need of beer, hookers and
> a steak") just give them your lat/long and the chopper will land on your
> head. [1]
>
> Have fun, be prepared, take everything (toilet paper - leaves become
> tiresome after a few days)
>
> Best,
>
> David in Durango
>
> [1] or not.  I ran out of gas on a "major" highway about dark thirty one
> winter night;  "Hello, 911?  I'm out of gas, its 4 degrees and the wind
> is out of the north at about 35mph . . ."  911 responds:  "That is not
> considered an emergency."
>
>
> Wes;
>
> Any off- road adventure needs warm clothing, communications gear (cell
> phone), and water. A few energy bars would be a good idea for
> emergencies.
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
> -----Original Message-----
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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From saltfever at comcast.net  Wed Apr  2 13:33:58 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:33:58 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 2008 rule book question
Message-ID: <000001c89500$e26d4650$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Can different thickness of padding be used to accommodate different drivers
with different sizes of helmets? Or is the 2 in. STRUCTURE dimensions the
actual clearance between the steel tubing and the helmet?



I see different padding systems in IRL, NASCAR, etc. What kind of padding or
brand is suggested?



Thanks, Doug for your great question.   -Elon



From: DougOdom dlodom at charter.net

Yesterday I tried to find the rule about the helmet area restriction of

movement.

From john at engr.wisc.edu  Thu Apr  3 11:36:29 2008
From: john at engr.wisc.edu (john robinson)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:36:29 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] hot rodding video
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20080403133548.021cadd0@cae.wisc.edu>

  <http://www.videosift.com/video/Hot-Rodding-is-Dead>http://www.videosift.com/video/Hot-Rodding-is-Dead
  pretty good video...

           John Robinson, Mechanician
   Mechanical Engineering University of Wisconsin
                 1513 University Ave.
                  Madison, Wi. 53706
                     608-262-3606
            Current World Land Speed Record Holder
                  Bonneville Salt Flats
                      H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
                  144.396 MPH set 2000
         Antarctic Ice Driller 2002-03
         Greenland Ice Driller 2006 

From saltfevr at q.com  Thu Apr  3 13:35:03 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:35:03 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] hot rodding video
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20080403133548.021cadd0@cae.wisc.edu>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20080403133548.021cadd0@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY122-W30E8110AD73A4F56AE2892C9F70@phx.gbl>

John :

Thanks for the video link. Its been around you tube for awhile. But I
thoroughly also enjoyed the Ed Roth & Von Dutch 9 min interview.  Thanks
againTom ShannonMagna, Utah> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:36:29 -0500> To:
land-speed at autox.team.net> From: john at engr.wisc.edu> Subject: [Land-speed] hot
rodding video> >
<http://www.videosift.com/video/Hot-Rodding-is-Dead>http://www.videosift.com/
video/Hot-Rodding-is-Dead> pretty good video...> > John Robinson, Mechanician>
Mechanical Engineering University of Wisconsin> 1513 University Ave.> Madison,
Wi. 53706> 608-262-3606> Current World Land Speed Record Holder> Bonneville
Salt Flats> H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt> 144.396 MPH set 2000> Antarctic
Ice Driller 2002-03> Greenland Ice Driller 2006 >
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are
subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From neil at dbelltech.com  Thu Apr  3 15:26:51 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:26:51 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] hot rodding video
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20080403133548.021cadd0@cae.wisc.edu>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20080403133548.021cadd0@cae.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <01ea01c895d9$d26deb40$0200a8c0@DBTech>

That is a fun video-- thanks, John.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
john robinson
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:36 AM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] hot rodding video

 
<http://www.videosift.com/video/Hot-Rodding-is-Dead>http://www.videosift.com
/video/Hot-Rodding-is-Dead
  pretty good video...

           John Robinson, Mechanician
   Mechanical Engineering University of Wisconsin
                 1513 University Ave.
                  Madison, Wi. 53706
                     608-262-3606
            Current World Land Speed Record Holder
                  Bonneville Salt Flats
                      H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
                  144.396 MPH set 2000
         Antarctic Ice Driller 2002-03
         Greenland Ice Driller 2006 

From jdincau at qnet.com  Sat Apr  5 15:30:24 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:30:24 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections
Message-ID: <C35AA87FA0FC40E58DF3428FB9684400@denpc>

Hi all,
      Has anyone out there had any experience building two stroke engine 
exhaust pipes? Specifically attaching the exhaust system to the cylinder 
barrel. The standard exhaust on the engine we are running uses a ball and 
socket joint held together by springs at the barrel. We would like to run a 
more gas tight joint but are worried about stress on the barrel. Any 
comments?
Jim in Palmdale 

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  5 17:10:37 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 00:10:37 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections
In-Reply-To: <C35AA87FA0FC40E58DF3428FB9684400@denpc>
References: <C35AA87FA0FC40E58DF3428FB9684400@denpc>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W2971D7F3A9D2CF63187398D9F00@phx.gbl>

butter up the inside of the pipe with Permatex hi-heat exhaust silicone -and
put it together when 1/2 dry with the springs ?

Maybe allow it to set-up 24-48 hrs. before start-up ? ?

Ought to work ....


   c heers to ya ,  ' Dirt  Track  Doug '
    -2225 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats
                but never more than a few feet from a cold one

         -'point man' in the perpetual search for Hot Blues,
                                     Cold Beer, Fast Cars, an' Warm Willin'
Wimin'


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> From: jdincau at qnet.com
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:30:24 -0700
> Subject: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections
>
> Hi all,
>       Has anyone out there had any experience building two stroke engine
> exhaust pipes? Specifically attaching the exhaust system to the cylinder
> barrel. The standard exhaust on the engine we are running uses a ball and
> socket joint held together by springs at the barrel. We would like to run a
> more gas tight joint but are worried about stress on the barrel. Any
> comments?
> Jim in Palmdale
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

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instantaccess_042008

From NT788 at comcast.net  Sun Apr  6 10:55:09 2008
From: NT788 at comcast.net (NT788 at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:55:09 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections
Message-ID: <040620081655.6384.47F9006D0002C036000018F02216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>

I would assemble immediately, to use rtv as an adheisive, not a gasket. jack

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Doug Anderson <boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com> 

> butter up the inside of the pipe with Permatex hi-heat exhaust silicone -and 
> put it together when 1/2 dry with the springs ? 
> 
> Maybe allow it to set-up 24-48 hrs. before start-up ? ? 
> 
> Ought to work .... 
> 
> 
> c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug ' 
> -2225 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats 
> but never more than a few feet from a cold one 
> 
> -'point man' in the perpetual search for Hot Blues, 
> Cold Beer, Fast Cars, an' Warm Willin' 
> Wimin' 
> 
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
> > 
> > From: jdincau at qnet.com 
> > To: land-speed at autox.team.net 
> > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:30:24 -0700 
> > Subject: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections 
> > 
> > Hi all, 
> > Has anyone out there had any experience building two stroke engine 
> > exhaust pipes? Specifically attaching the exhaust system to the cylinder 
> > barrel. The standard exhaust on the engine we are running uses a ball and 
> > socket joint held together by springs at the barrel. We would like to run a 
> > more gas tight joint but are worried about stress on the barrel. Any 
> > comments? 
> > Jim in Palmdale 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> > 
> > Land-speed mailing list 
> > 
> > You are subscribed as boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com 
> > 
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________ 
> More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. 
> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_ 
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> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Land-speed mailing list 
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net 
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  6 11:38:13 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 17:38:13 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections
In-Reply-To: <040620081655.6384.47F9006D0002C036000018F02216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
References: <040620081655.6384.47F9006D0002C036000018F02216525806C8C8C9ABB2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W108350698254BC5EDFCAE3D9F00@phx.gbl>

Point taken.  thanks Jack,say,..  how you then ?   - building another 'pencil'
are ya ?


   c heers to ya ,  ' Dirt  Track  Doug '
    -22 miles from Square Deal Raceway,
    -21 miles east of Action Park Speedway,
    -63 miles northeast of Champion Speedway
    -105 miles south of   'the Syracuse Mile' ...
    -262 miles north of Williams Grove Speedway
    -2225 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats
              but never more than a few feet from a cold one

From: NT788 at comcast.net
To: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com; jdincau at qnet.com; land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:55:09 +0000


I would assemble immediately, to use rtv as an adheisive, not a gasket. jack

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Doug Anderson <boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com>

> butter up the inside of the pipe with Permatex hi-heat exhaust silicone -and
> put it together when 1/2 dry with the springs ?
>
> Maybe allow it to set-up 24-48 hrs. before start-up ? ?
>
> Ought to work ....
>
>
> c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug '
> -2225 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats
> but never more than a few feet from a cold one
>
> -'point man' in the perpetual search for Hot Blues,
> Cold Beer, Fast Cars, an' Warm Willin'
> Wimin'
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >
> > From: jdincau at qnet.com
> > To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:30:24 -0700
> > Subject: [Land-speed] Two stroke exhaust connections
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Has anyone out there had any experience building two stroke engine
> > exhaust pipes? Specifically attaching the exhaust system to the cylinder
> > barrel. The standard exhaust on the engine we are running uses a ball and
> > socket joint held together by springs at the barrel. We would like to run
a
> > more gas tight joint but are worried about stress on the barrel. Any
> > comments?
> > Jim in Palmdale
> > _______________________________________________
> > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >
> > Land-s
peed mailing list
> >
> > You are subscribed as boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com
> >
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_
> instantaccess_042008
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net
>
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A

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Sun Apr  6 14:13:53 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:13:53 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
Message-ID: <018101c89822$bcce3600$6501a8c0@Glens>

They got to run today, had a lot of wind. No results posted as yet. I'm sure
Dan, Slim and others will update us sometime today.
GB

From dlodom at charter.net  Sun Apr  6 14:27:26 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:27:26 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
References: <018101c89822$bcce3600$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <001501c89824$a175b6b0$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glen Barrett" <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
To: "landspeed at autox.team.net" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton


> They got to run today, had a lot of wind. No results posted as yet. I'm 
> sure
> Dan, Slim and others will update us sometime today.
> GB
I guess I should have warned Dan. Both times I went to Maxton it rained one 
of the two days. I think it has something to do with west coast guys trying 
to run on the wrong coast. Maybe because we talk funny.
     Doug Odom in big ditch ( on the left coast) 

From ed at vetteracing.com  Sun Apr  6 16:23:00 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:23:00 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
Message-ID: <W2049819104204871207520580@webmail21>

Doug...... When does 100% humidity end and rain begin........ I couldn't tell
the difference.
Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Odom [mailto:dlodom at charter.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 01:27 PM
To: 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Maxton

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Barrett" To:
"landspeed at autox.team.net" Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:13 PMSubject:
[Land-speed] Maxton> They got to run today, had a lot of wind. No results
posted as yet. I'm > sure> Dan, Slim and others will update us sometime
today.> GBI guess I should have warned Dan. Both times I went to Maxton it
rained one of the two days. I think it has something to do with west coast
guys trying to run on the wrong coast. Maybe because we talk funny. Doug Odom
in big ditch ( on the left coast)

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  6 16:46:43 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 22:46:43 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
In-Reply-To: <W2049819104204871207520580@webmail21>
References: <W2049819104204871207520580@webmail21>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W8F3A5D6B948C26B5DCC16D9F00@phx.gbl>

Ed:  the 'other Doug'  here,

    - see; that's what I HATE about living on the 'wrong coast'Damp and cold
as hell in winter (6-9 months) and humid and sweaty as hell (for 4-5 months)
The rest of the time (3 days) is ' just perfect'When I moved back to NYS from
Montana I dam near froze to death.




   c heers to ya ,  ' Dirt  Track  Doug '
             -2225 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats
                         but never more than a few feet from a cold one

    Speedway Bikes, Minibikes  and Harley- D's rode with equal joy,
            Dog Training,  Murdersickle Parts, Emergency Airship repair,
               Hot Air, Hot Blues,Cold Beer, Fast Cars, an' Warm Willin'
Wimin'
                Aerial Surveillance,  Corrupt Politicians exposed,  Midgets,
Sprint Cars,

                                      -and 'Slide Jobs'  appreciated  for the
FINE ART   that they
are55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555
555555555555555


    From: ed at vetteracing.com
> To: dlodom at charter.net; speedtimer at beyondbb.com; land-speed at autox.team.net
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 22:23:00 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Maxton
>
> Doug...... When does 100% humidity end and rain begin........ I couldn't
tell
> the difference.
> Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Odom [mailto:dlodom at charter.net]
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 01:27 PM
> To: 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Maxton
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Barrett" To:
> "landspeed at autox.team.net" Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:13 PMSubject:
> [Land-speed] Maxton> They got to run today, had a lot of wind. No results
> posted as yet. I'm > sure> Dan, Slim and others will update us sometime
> today.> GBI guess I should have warned Dan. Both times I went to Maxton it
> rained one of the two days. I think it has something to do with west coast
> guys trying to run on the wrong coast. Maybe because we talk funny.

           Doug Odom  in big ditch ( on the left coast)

_________________________________________________________________
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From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Sun Apr  6 20:04:20 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:04:20 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
Message-ID: <49355.1207533860@nancyandjon.org>

Nancy and I rolled out of there about 2PM - they were still running.  Didn't
start runs 'til about 10.30 AM or so after trying to
dry out a wet track.  The winds Friday, when we were setting up, were nice
tailwinds all day long.  Saturday it rained, and
sure enough, 10-15mph headwinds all today during the runs.  Let's see what I
can remember:

Unh, Charlie what's-his-name, who went fast last week at Texas -- went 243.243
today on a turbo 'Busa for fast run of the
three hours that Nancy and I were there.  Said he had to pedal it in high
gear, what with the headwinds - and I looked at his
drive tire after the run -- nice little cuts all the way 'round freom spinning
on the pavement.  Plenty o' power there!  Unh,
Rob Kinnan from Hot Rod went 147 (I think it was) in that slick Force Five car
he was piloting, a Mistubishi Evo 2 turned a
super-quick 189.   The lime green Ford Lightning pickup of Bob Ida (?) hurt a
head gasket about half-track -- had the crowd
yelling at him as he motored the rest of the way down the course "Use your
mirrors!" -- to see how much smoke he was
trailing.  Not much of an oildown,though -- only about a ten-minute hold to
make sure the track was okay.  I don't have run
sheets -- just a funky memory -- CRS now that I've turned 60.  Wonder what'll
happen when I'm really old. . .

Fogy spent about two hours going over a Mazda car (w/Nissan motor, I think it
was) -- so ECTA got him to do some good
work.  I think the ECTA folks were pleased to have the left coast guys there.
I've got a photo of Fogy and Warner at the
banquet last night - once I get home I'll try to photo shop it and put a milk
bottle on the table between them (instead of the
Chivas Regal that they really had).  The banquet was beyond Standing Room Only
-- a bunch of folks had to eat out in the
looby of the hotel where the banquet got moved to after the original plan (at
the grove of trees by the Pine Acres Motel) got
sort of submerged.  A good time was had by damn near all, though.

That's enough for now.  We'll be home by late afternoon Tuesday.

Nancy and Jon

On Sun Apr  6 15:13 , "Glen Barrett"  sent:

>They got to run today, had a lot of wind. No results posted as yet. I'm sure
>Dan, Slim and others will update us sometime today.
>GB
>_

From ed at vetteracing.com  Sun Apr  6 20:28:25 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 02:28:25 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
Message-ID: <W3519825138122661207535305@webmail9>

Doug...... I think we need to form a rescue team to get you out of there! 
Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Anderson [mailto:boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 03:46 PM
To: 'Ed Van Scoy', 'Doug Odom', 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
Subject: RE: [Land-speed] Maxton

Ed: the 'other Doug' here, 

 - see; that's what I HATE about living on the 'wrong coast'

Dampand cold as hell in winter (6-9 months) and humid and sweaty as hell(for 4-5 months) The rest of the time (3 days) is ' just perfect'

When I moved back to NYS from Montana I dam near froze to death.

From jon.the.wise at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 04:07:15 2008
From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jon Bishop)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 03:07:15 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Non LSR, Rubicon Trail
In-Reply-To: <2AEF5B00-E0C2-4CD2-808D-6E2A3D0B0A2D@comcast.net>
References: <2AEF5B00-E0C2-4CD2-808D-6E2A3D0B0A2D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <593E2E02-1F3B-4069-9D36-3B8C00669ABA@gmail.com>

On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:45 AM, Wester Potter wrote:

> I've been invited to go along on a Jeep ride over the Rubicon Trail by
> my brother-in-law.  He's a hard core rock crawler and did the Rubicon
> last year for his first time.
>
> Does anyone have first hand experience with the trip as to what to
> take and what not to take?  I want to take my old 35 mm SLR camera
> case.  It's dustproof, waterproof and should be fine for the trip.
> Anything else will go in a soft duffle bag and be carried in a carrier
> on top of the roll cage.
>
> My only personal experience with the Lake Tahoe area was many years
> ago, on ski trips, where we rented a house and filled every bit of
> floor and deck space with sleeping bags.  I don't plan on digging the
> Jeep out of four feet of snow like my last experience up there.  On
> another winter trip in the 1960's driving in an Oldsmobile Toronado,
> the authorities made us put chains on the tires before we could go
> over I-80 between Reno and Sacramento.  When we started to put them on
> the front wheels we were informed by the laughing official that they
> went on the rear.  We chained up the rears and happily made it over
> the pass with no problems.
>
> Any Rubicon tips would be welcome.  It sounds like a great three day
> trip.


Only tip I can give. Bring extra socks. I ALWAYS get my feet wet when  
I go up country. Also, where you coming from? You might want to take  
50 and take IceHouse down to the rubicon trail, it's quite scenic. (I  
live about a half hour below the head of the rubicon trail)

Other than that, chains go on the driven wheels (front for FWD, rear  
for RWD, or just drive a 4x4 with M&S tires and don't need chains)

Are you going on the Jeepers Jamboree? They turn main street into a  
party for the weekend before they go. It's great.

I've never actually gone up the rubicon. Been as far as the river  
crossing. Camp up there a lot. Drive all OVER. If you want to see  
forever, make sure to take a trip up to the Bald Mountain overlook.  
It's off Wentworth Springs road, well before you get to stumpy  
meadows. You can see the entire sacramento valley. Very cool.

~Jon

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  7 16:33:42 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:33:42 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
In-Reply-To: <W3519825138122661207535305@webmail9>
References: <W3519825138122661207535305@webmail9>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W35302DB40BE51A14442209D9F30@phx.gbl>

           AMEN to that  Ed


   sprint car & murdersickle racin'  is real good back east but lil' else

                          ( IMHO  OF COURSE - Bob W )

     c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug '
        -22 miles from Square Deal Raceway,
        -21 miles east of Action Park Speedway,
        -63 miles northeast of Champion Speedway
       -105 miles south of   'the Syracuse Mile' ...
       -262 miles north of Williams Grove Speedway
       -2225 miles due east of the Bonneville Salt Flats
                but never more than a few feet from a cold one

From: ed at vetteracing.com
To: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com; ed at vetteracing.com; dlodom at charter.net;
speedtimer at beyondbb.com; land-speed at autox.team.net
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 02:28:25 +0000
Subject: Re:  [Land-speed] Maxton

Doug...... I think we need to form a rescue team to get you out of there!

Ed


-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Anderson [mailto:boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 03:46 PM
To: 'Ed Van Scoy', 'Doug Odom', 'Glen Barrett', landspeed at autox.team.net
Subject: RE: [Land-speed] Maxton






Ed:  the 'other Doug'  here,

    - see; that's what I HATE about living on the 'wrong coast'Damp
and cold as hell in winter (6-9 months) and humid and sweaty as hell
(for 4-5 months)

The rest of the time (3 days) is ' just perfect'When I moved back to NYS from
Montana,

           - I dam near froze to death.










_________________________________________________________________
Pack up or back upuse SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn
how.
hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh
_skydrive_packup_042008

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Mon Apr  7 16:50:58 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:50:58 EDT
Subject: [Land-speed] Maxton
Message-ID: <cfd.2eee1be9.352bff52@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/7/2008 6:34:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com writes:

sprint  car & murdersickle racin'  is real good back east but lil'  else

( IMHO  OF COURSE - Bob W  )


Considering how many independant tracks, oval, drag, paved and dirt, there  
are in the north east, I'd say you are missing something. Unless you are a  
(closet) NASCAR fan, your Dougness, of which there is a shortage of hereabouts.  
Hang in there, I hear there are some interesting new tracks opening. Just a  
rumor, but...........
IMHO Bob W 



**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.    
  (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

From JONWENNERBERG at nancyandjon.org  Thu Apr 10 06:55:22 2008
From: JONWENNERBERG at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:55:22 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?
Message-ID: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>

Hey -- did you see what I just saw when I clicked on landracing.com?

"This site is for sale"

Hunh?  Is it a surprise to you, too?

Jon , tall guy with moustache
and two 200 MPH Club hats

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 10 08:25:23 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:25:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Land Racing Website
Message-ID: <5789971.1207837524066.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'll start the bidding at $1.00..........JD

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Thu Apr 10 09:01:22 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:01:22 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?
References: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <002801c89b1b$be2be870$6501a8c0@Glens>

Didn't surprise me with the people not listening to the rules and start 
private wars. Sure hate to see it go away.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Wennerberg" <JONWENNERBERG at nancyandjon.org>
To: "Land Speed Digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:55 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?


> Hey -- did you see what I just saw when I clicked on landracing.com?
>
> "This site is for sale"
>
> Hunh?  Is it a surprise to you, too?
>
> Jon , tall guy with moustache
> and two 200 MPH Club hats
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Apr 10 09:10:22 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:10:22 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?
In-Reply-To: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
References: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <47FE2DDE.8040207@mayfco.com>

Dang! I just checked as well and you..There os themessage and the note 
about contacting the webmaster.  I sent JOna message asking what the 
heck was/is going on. Nothing in reply yet. I had chatted with him a few 
weeks ago about putting someof my analyses stuff on the site and there 
was no mention of anythinglike this.  Maybe he is just tired of it.

Anybody asked Joe abot what is happening?

mayf
Jon Wennerberg wrote:

>Hey -- did you see what I just saw when I clicked on landracing.com?
>
>"This site is for sale"
>
>Hunh?  Is it a surprise to you, too?
>
>Jon , tall guy with moustache
>and two 200 MPH Club hats
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From dwarner230 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 10 09:18:49 2008
From: dwarner230 at yahoo.com (dan warner)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:18:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?
In-Reply-To: <002801c89b1b$be2be870$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <321554.68406.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Too bad, a loss of a very valuable resource.
   
  DW

Glen Barrett <speedtimer at beyondbb.com> wrote:
  Didn't surprise me with the people not listening to the rules and start 
private wars. Sure hate to see it go away.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Wennerberg" 
To: "Land Speed Digest" 
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:55 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?


> Hey -- did you see what I just saw when I clicked on landracing.com?
>
> "This site is for sale"
>
> Hunh? Is it a surprise to you, too?
>
> Jon , tall guy with moustache
> and two 200 MPH Club hats
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as dwarner230 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Apr 10 09:50:26 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:50:26 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
Message-ID: <47FE3742.6040204@mayfco.com>

I've alwaysliked the idea of having a speedo on my dash. I have a 0 - 30 
mph unit but it always needs tobe calibrated. I may do that this summer 
if I can get to the salt and tow the car through a measured mile. I 
already have this unit installed and in place.  But, I have been 
thinking abot GPS based items. I see a coupl eof them marked with speeds 
to 180 mph and a software package that turns something into a unit that 
goes to 210 mph with highest speed recall.

So I am likely the only guy who wants one towatch while motoring down 
the course, but maybe there is oneof you that also has tried one and 
found something that works? I'd be interested to know. I remember Otto 
using one in the ankle biter but it got vibrated to death.

So anybody else use one for high speeds?

mayf

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Thu Apr 10 10:12:44 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:12:44 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
In-Reply-To: <47FE3742.6040204@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D16BAD@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

Mayf,
I ran my GPS for the 150 club run -both realtime and highest speed of
trip.

I saw a 'liner w/ a cheapy taped on the steering wheel.

This must be for 'fraidy cats so they no when to lift?

David in Durango

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of drmayf
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:50 AM
To: LSR
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...

I've alwaysliked the idea of having a speedo on my dash. I have a 0 - 30

mph unit but it always needs tobe calibrated. I may do that this summer
if I can get to the salt and tow the car through a measured mile. I
already have this unit installed and in place.  But, I have been
thinking abot GPS based items. I see a coupl eof them marked with speeds

to 180 mph and a software package that turns something into a unit that
goes to 210 mph with highest speed recall.

So I am likely the only guy who wants one towatch while motoring down
the course, but maybe there is oneof you that also has tried one and
found something that works? I'd be interested to know. I remember Otto
using one in the ankle biter but it got vibrated to death.

So anybody else use one for high speeds?

mayf
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Thu Apr 10 10:41:33 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:41:33 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?
In-Reply-To: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
References: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <B0D86E782B6245BC9EE34EF88540C368@LindaPC>

HEY---the timeless struggle:

 ANARCHIST VS FASCIST---  LOL ----  but the NEUTRON bomb got both of 
'em!!!!! 

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 10 10:49:29 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:49:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
Message-ID: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

>I saw a 'liner w/ a cheapy taped on the steering wheel.
>
>This must be for 'fraidy cats so they no when to lift?

Most newbies don't know of this but a speedo in a liner is a very useful tool and not for what you think. Many of the long "square" type liners need to know how fast they are going before turning off course. One battery powered one with an inexperienced (actually a wiseguy) driver had one tipover on him because he was going too fast to turn off. 

I believe a speed-o-meter would be a distraction during a run especially over 200; things happen too fast when you don't watch what you are doing. However a shiftlight set at the RPM of the record you are looking for can be a help. Tell your driver to get the light on in high gear and keep it on for the record.

One very successful team does just that........Good Luck

From fourdoorshitbox at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 10 11:06:51 2008
From: fourdoorshitbox at hotmail.com (James Stewart)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:06:51 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Down it goes
Message-ID: <BLU127-W8BAA1362763043A941606A4EC0@phx.gbl>

landracing.com has been an incredibly entertaining and informative resource
for the last few years to some guys who are a long way from the heart of the
action , experience and history of land speed racing. It has been very useful
to us and has provided great kinship as well, I have been saddened to see what
has happened over the last month or so. Personally I didn't see the point in
the severity of some of the measures taken lately but saying that I'll also
say I'm not the one who has to devote  lot of unpaid time to managing it and
accepting it's liability. I feel that some egos got in the way of a bit of
good clean fun , free speech suffered and then the content and interest seemed
to drop away.

 whatever happened to agreeing to disagree ?.......

I hope something can be done to save the massive archive of material and bank
of knowledge that has been deposited there.

I'm sure gonna miss it.

Thanks Jon Amo.

From JONWENNERBERG at nancyandjon.org  Thu Apr 10 11:38:18 2008
From: JONWENNERBERG at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:38:18 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Reply on Landracing
In-Reply-To: <1fb00a13590a3330a22200a.20080410102426.qrfbgbzna@www.dslextreme.com>
References: <1fb00a13590a3330a22200a.20080410102426.qrfbgbzna@www.dslextreme.com>
Message-ID: <68D3F25B-399E-4D0B-B1E5-BD2F133C9700@nancyandjon.org>

On Apr 10, 2008, at 1:24 PM, Tom Gerardi wrote:

Hi Jon,

I don't know if you got the message I sent you, so I will try again.
Thanks for the reply to the PM I sent you on landracing.com. I read the
reply in my email box, then went to Landracing.com to reply and saw a  
for
sale sign. So I just wanted to let you know I appreciated your reply  
to my
question. Hope this gets to you.

Regards,
Tom Gerardi


Tom:

Yes, I got this, and I did send a second message to you - after I did  
some thinking while riding on our snowthrower.  In retrospect it was  
a "bullshit" and a "god damn" to which I objected - not for personal  
reasons, but rather for the sake of others that might be offended.   
But you're right about one thing -- I never did see my post -- the  
whole 2 Club series of topics disappeared soon after I posted, and  
now the whole danged site is gone.

I know that others are working with Jonathon (already) to resurrect  
the site in some manner -- hold on, and in the meantime, we've still  
got the land-speed at autox.team.net list to keep us in touch with one  
another.

It's good to hear from you.  Keep in touch -- and have you moseyed to  
Nancy's and my personal site?  www.nancyandjon.org.


Jon Wennerberg

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Thu Apr 10 11:48:07 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:48:07 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
In-Reply-To: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D16BAF@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

James,
So much for my humor.  I understand there can be other uses - I was just
having a poke at my friend Dr. M.

Your post is a good reminder that there may be a jillion things I
haven't considered yet - hope none of them bite me!

Thanks,

David

-----Original Message-----
From: James Tone [mailto:gmc6power at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:49 AM
To: Adin, David; LSR
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Speedometers...



>
>I saw a 'liner w/ a cheapy taped on the steering wheel.
>
>This must be for 'fraidy cats so they no when to lift?

Most newbies don't know of this but a speedo in a liner is a very useful
tool and not for what you think. Many of the long "square" type liners
need to know how fast they are going before turning off course. One
battery powered one with an inexperienced (actually a wiseguy) driver
had one tipover on him because he was going too fast to turn off.

I believe a speed-o-meter would be a distraction during a run especially
over 200; things happen too fast when you don't watch what you are
doing. However a shiftlight set at the RPM of the record you are looking
for can be a help. Tell your driver to get the light on in high gear and
keep it on for the record.

One very successful team does just that........Good Luck

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Apr 10 12:58:14 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:58:14 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
In-Reply-To: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <47FE6346.9000703@mayfco.com>

JD, I have a tach and a shift light. I set the tach to the desired pre 
calculatred rpm and then as you say try and keep the light lit. But that 
was not what I wanted the speedo for.

mayf
James Tone wrote:

>>I saw a 'liner w/ a cheapy taped on the steering wheel.
>>
>>This must be for 'fraidy cats so they no when to lift?
>>    
>>
>
>Most newbies don't know of this but a speedo in a liner is a very useful tool and not for what you think. Many of the long "square" type liners need to know how fast they are going before turning off course. One battery powered one with an inexperienced (actually a wiseguy) driver had one tipover on him because he was going too fast to turn off. 
>
>I believe a speed-o-meter would be a distraction during a run especially over 200; things happen too fast when you don't watch what you are doing. However a shiftlight set at the RPM of the record you are looking for can be a help. Tell your driver to get the light on in high gear and keep it on for the record.
>
>One very successful team does just that........Good Luck
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From neil at dbelltech.com  Thu Apr 10 16:32:23 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:32:23 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
In-Reply-To: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006201c89b5a$c2abcca0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

David;

After some front suspension changes, my Mirage had no way to connect a
speedometer cable. Fortunately, a helicopter airspeed indicator fit into the
same hole as the old speedo. A pitot static tube was added to the nose and
voila! -- a "speedometer".

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ


-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
James Tone
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:49 AM
To: Adin,David; LSR
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Speedometers...

>I saw a 'liner w/ a cheapy taped on the steering wheel.
>
>This must be for 'fraidy cats so they no when to lift?

Most newbies don't know of this but a speedo in a liner is a very useful
tool and not for what you think. Many of the long "square" type liners need
to know how fast they are going before turning off course. One battery
powered one with an inexperienced (actually a wiseguy) driver had one
tipover on him because he was going too fast to turn off. 

I believe a speed-o-meter would be a distraction during a run especially
over 200; things happen too fast when you don't watch what you are doing.
However a shiftlight set at the RPM of the record you are looking for can be
a help. Tell your driver to get the light on in high gear and keep it on for
the record.

One very successful team does just that........Good Luck
_______________________________________________

From karhu at california.com  Thu Apr 10 17:01:08 2008
From: karhu at california.com (Benn)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:01:08 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
References: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<006201c89b5a$c2abcca0$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <000201c89b5e$c38df270$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>

Huh...how far does it have to protrude to avoid the effects of nearby
bodywork?  I've often thought that an airspeed indicator may be better at
showing how well a vehicle is doing, to account for windspeed, than a
groundspeed indicator.
Benn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: "'James Tone'" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>; "'Adin,David'"
<DavidAdin at mercydurango.org>; "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Speedometers...


> David;
>
> After some front suspension changes, my Mirage had no way to connect a
> speedometer cable. Fortunately, a helicopter airspeed indicator fit into
> the
> same hole as the old speedo. A pitot static tube was added to the nose and
> voila! -- a "speedometer".
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
> [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> James Tone
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:49 AM
> To: Adin,David; LSR
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
>
>>I saw a 'liner w/ a cheapy taped on the steering wheel.
>>
>>This must be for 'fraidy cats so they no when to lift?
>
> Most newbies don't know of this but a speedo in a liner is a very useful
> tool and not for what you think. Many of the long "square" type liners
> need
> to know how fast they are going before turning off course. One battery
> powered one with an inexperienced (actually a wiseguy) driver had one
> tipover on him because he was going too fast to turn off.
>
> I believe a speed-o-meter would be a distraction during a run especially
> over 200; things happen too fast when you don't watch what you are doing.
> However a shiftlight set at the RPM of the record you are looking for can
> be
> a help. Tell your driver to get the light on in high gear and keep it on
> for
> the record.
>
> One very successful team does just that........Good Luck
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as karhu at california.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From td at twinjugs.com  Thu Apr 10 17:04:06 2008
From: td at twinjugs.com (Todd)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:04:06 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] ( WHAT THE HECK?) - The ECTA website has been
	hacked
In-Reply-To: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
References: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <20080410225843.M16750@twinjugs.com>

The ECTA website has had issues since the LR.com was taken down
today. It appears we have been hacked and if you go to the site it is
attempting to put a virus out to your computer(not good if you don't
have virus software of course). It appears to be a Trojan virus(Debbie
and Shane are both working on this and running diagnostics at the moment to 
come up with the best fix, if others knwo anything feel free to include it 
here as well as on the ECTA Yahoo site if you're a member). The key here is 
to protect all the users and then worry about getting the site back up.

Please let others know to steer clear of the site until it is safe again, 
and run any intivirus software you have to check your systems in the 
meantime.

Todd(who has now found out that something called a trojan is not always
for your protection, whodda thunk it?).

From neil at dbelltech.com  Thu Apr 10 17:20:06 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:20:06 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
In-Reply-To: <000201c89b5e$c38df270$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
References: <19116974.1207846170078.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net><006201c89b5a$c2abcca0$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<000201c89b5e$c38df270$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
Message-ID: <006901c89b61$6b85c140$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Benn;

I bought my pitot static tube from Dweyer Instruments. It is a small
diameter tube and extends about 5" higher than the body; I think one
important point is that it is mounted at the nose so the influence of the
airstream flowing over the bodywork is minimized.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Benn
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:01 PM
To: 'LSR'
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Speedometers...

Huh...how far does it have to protrude to avoid the effects of nearby
bodywork?  I've often thought that an airspeed indicator may be better at
showing how well a vehicle is doing, to account for windspeed, than a
groundspeed indicator.
Benn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: "'James Tone'" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>; "'Adin,David'"
<DavidAdin at mercydurango.org>; "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Speedometers...


> David;
>
> After some front suspension changes, my Mirage had no way to connect a
> speedometer cable. Fortunately, a helicopter airspeed indicator fit into
> the
> same hole as the old speedo. A pitot static tube was added to the nose and
> voila! -- a "speedometer".
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
> [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> James Tone
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:49 AM
> To: Adin,David; LSR
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Speedometers...
>
>>I saw a 'liner w/ a cheapy taped on the steering wheel.
>>
>>This must be for 'fraidy cats so they no when to lift?
>
> Most newbies don't know of this but a speedo in a liner is a very useful
> tool and not for what you think. Many of the long "square" type liners
> need
> to know how fast they are going before turning off course. One battery
> powered one with an inexperienced (actually a wiseguy) driver had one
> tipover on him because he was going too fast to turn off.
>
> I believe a speed-o-meter would be a distraction during a run especially
> over 200; things happen too fast when you don't watch what you are doing.
> However a shiftlight set at the RPM of the record you are looking for can
> be
> a help. Tell your driver to get the light on in high gear and keep it on
> for
> the record.
>
> One very successful team does just that........Good Luck
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as karhu at california.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From dlodom at charter.net  Thu Apr 10 19:00:00 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:00:00 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Ceramic Coating
Message-ID: <47FEB810.5030406@charter.net>

Anyone have any experience with the amount of heat reduction in the 
engine compartment with ceramic coating the headers?  Is it more or less 
effective than wrappings? Can you wrap the coated headers then take the 
wrapping off and clean the header? Thinking of keeping the engine area 
in a rear engine streamliner as cool as is possible.
Doug Odom in big ditch

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 10 19:44:07 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:44:07 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Ceramic Coating
In-Reply-To: <47FEB810.5030406@charter.net>
References: <47FEB810.5030406@charter.net>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W448B3EF82E0D669D3C293DD9EF0@phx.gbl>

           www.finishlinecoatings.com
     c heers, ' Dirt Track Doug '          -22 miles from Square Deal Raceway,
-21 miles east of Action Park Speedway,         -63 miles northeast of
Champion Speedway       -105 miles south of   'the Syracuse Mile' ...
-262 miles north of Williams Grove Speedway       -2225 miles due east of the
Bonneville Salt Flats                but never more than a few feet from a
cold one                               -------------------------- oooo
---------------------------> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:00:00 -0700> From:
dlodom at charter.net> To: Land-speed at autox.team.net> Subject: [Land-speed]
Ceramic Coating> > Anyone have any experience with the amount of heat
reduction in the > engine compartment with ceramic coating the headers?  Is it
more or less > effective than wrappings? Can you wrap the coated headers then
take the > wrapping off and clean the header? Thinking of keeping the engine
area > in a rear engine streamliner as cool as is possible.> Doug Odom in big
ditch
_________________________________________________________________
Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.

From DCarr511 at msn.com  Thu Apr 10 19:46:00 2008
From: DCarr511 at msn.com (Duane Carr)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:46:00 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] LSR Forum
Message-ID: <BLU111-DAV13F03A31F413C559A2C3C96EF0@phx.gbl>

I would like nothing more than for Forum at landracing.net to continue on.
With it being closed down again and the site put up for sale I don't know if
it will return. I can only hope that Jon changes his mind. But in preparing
for the worst I am looking for an alternative LSR related Forum.

I am a moderator of another Forum " Motorsportsvillage.com " and I have talked
to the owner, Administrators and other Moderators and so far they are very
interested in adding a " LSR " Category that can have some sub category's
added as needed. They are very interested in what the LSR community has to
offer every member of this Forum.

This Forum currently consist mainly of Drag Racers, but has a couple of Truck
Pullers and a small variation of other enthusiast from different motorsports(
sand drag, circle track boats ) and me ... the Lone LSR Fan at this time. From
the U.S.A., Canada, Australia, England and The Netherlands.

If you feel you might be interested in a new or alternative Forum please check
out:

http://www.motorsportsvillage.com/forum/index.php<http://www.motorsportsvilla
ge.com/forum/index.php>

And contact the Administrator or email me back at " DCarr511 at msn dot com "
if you'd be interested in a LSR Category being added.


Thank You,
          Duane

From DCarr511 at msn.com  Thu Apr 10 19:51:37 2008
From: DCarr511 at msn.com (Duane Carr)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:51:37 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Address fix
Message-ID: <BLU111-DAV13D088686D4C679C6D689596EF0@phx.gbl>

For " MSV " Motorsportsvillage.com "
http://www.motorsportsvillage.com/forum/index.php<http://www.motorsportsvilla
ge.com/forum/index.php>

From saltfevr at q.com  Thu Apr 10 20:42:28 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:42:28 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?
In-Reply-To: <002801c89b1b$be2be870$6501a8c0@Glens>
References: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
	<002801c89b1b$be2be870$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <BAY122-W2156184B3CB2E4280EC075C9EF0@phx.gbl>

Sure sorry to read the news. Been going to Jons site almost daily like many of
you for years.
The Build Diaries,General discussion,etc were unmatched. Thanks to Jon for his
many race event reports,and to his site. Guess we got Mark Bradakis email list
for now. Somebody pass the beer nuts, I'm in mourning.Tom ShannonMagna, Utah>
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com> To: land-speed at autox.team.net;
JONWENNERBERG at nancyandjon.org> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:01:22 -0600> Subject:
Re: [Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?> > Didn't surprise me with the people not
listening to the rules and start > private wars. Sure hate to see it go away.>
Glen> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Wennerberg"
<JONWENNERBERG at nancyandjon.org>> To: "Land Speed Digest"
<land-speed at autox.team.net>> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:55 AM> Subject:
[Land-speed] WHAT THE HECK?> > > > Hey -- did you see what I just saw when I
clicked on landracing.com?> >> > "This site is for sale"> >> > Hunh? Is it a
surprise to you, too?> >> > Jon , tall guy with moustache> > and two 200 MPH
Club hats> > _______________________________________________> > Support
Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html> >> > Land-speed mailing list> >> >
You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com> >> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are
subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From td at twinjugs.com  Fri Apr 11 05:56:41 2008
From: td at twinjugs.com (Todd)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:56:41 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] The ECTA website is back up
In-Reply-To: <20080410225843.M16750@twinjugs.com>
References: <CD45A982-96A3-4A8B-9078-D1AB777B15DB@nancyandjon.org>
	<20080410225843.M16750@twinjugs.com>
Message-ID: <20080411115414.M13694@twinjugs.com>

 The ECTA website is back up.
 Thanks to Tonya, Deb and Mark for getting in there... but mainly a BIG 
 THANKS to Jon Amo for finding out the origin/cause and restoring it to 
 it's premeet status. 
 Deb(records) and Mark(content) are working on it now to restore the 
 lost data and new pages done since the last meet.
 Kudos to those in the know and a hot poker in the eye to the haters 
 that hack and cost large amounts of people alot of time and money in 
 their businesses and such over something like this.
 Todd
PS: The recent data portion of the site has now been restored as well(IE: 
retired records and all the April 2008 points, records and runlogs).

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Fri Apr 11 08:18:26 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:18:26 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com
Message-ID: <E4D8C757-5D40-424A-A225-B7922F65C87F@nancyandjon.org>

Hey hey hey!  Did you go to the landracing.com site this morning?   
Take a look -- all hope is not lost.  Sure hope it'll all be back and  
running soon...

Jon , tall guy with moustache
and two 200 MPH Club hats

From neil at dbelltech.com  Fri Apr 11 10:37:32 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:37:32 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com & Engine Analyzer Software
In-Reply-To: <E4D8C757-5D40-424A-A225-B7922F65C87F@nancyandjon.org>
References: <E4D8C757-5D40-424A-A225-B7922F65C87F@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <00a801c89bf2$5a1e8680$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Jon;

Yes, I was just looking at the site; I hope this bodes well for its
continuation.

BTW; has anyone ever used one of those engine simulation programs? What did
you think of them? Are they worthwhile at all? 

I tried "Dyno 2003" and the results looked flakey. I hadn't expected very
accurate results but the fact that the header pipe lengths aren't factored
in and that every time the cam timing is retarded the HP increases but
advancing the cam timing does nothing at all makes me suspicious that much
of what is supposed to be analyzed by the software really is not taken into
consideration.

Dave, I think I know what your answer is going to be.....

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Jon Wennerberg
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 7:18 AM
To: Land Speed Digest
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com

Hey hey hey!  Did you go to the landracing.com site this morning?   
Take a look -- all hope is not lost.  Sure hope it'll all be back and  
running soon...

Jon , tall guy with moustache
and two 200 MPH Club hats
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Fri Apr 11 10:42:09 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:42:09 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Address fix
References: <BLU111-DAV13D088686D4C679C6D689596EF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <002101c89bf3$012be030$6401a8c0@S>

I really hope Motorsportsvillage doesn't get into this act for my own
personal reasons. (though others may be in the same boat as me)
After looking at their website I see where MSV and Comcast are not on
speaking terms.  We're in absolutely no position to change our ISP and
another email address, especially a Yahoo address, would be a real pain.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Carr" <DCarr511 at msn.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:51 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Address fix


> For " MSV " Motorsportsvillage.com "
>
http://www.motorsportsvillage.com/forum/index.php<http://www.motorsportsvilla
> ge.com/forum/index.php>

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 11 13:02:41 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:02:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Address fix
Message-ID: <7821894.1207940561885.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

My problem would be "drag racers" telling us how to do our motorsport. Many things could be learned but I feel it would lead to more hate and discontent. 

We have a problem with "backwoods" circle trackers showing up and us giving their money back and sending them hone. Not everyone plays by the same rules and that's OK.  After 30 years of doing this I would rather be left helping those how genuinely need it instead of explaining why another orgaizations rules or lack of them not fitting in with ours....Good Luck to all as we need a forum for info.

>
>I really hope Motorsportsvillage doesn't get into this act for my own
>personal reasons. (though others may be in the same boat as me)
>After looking at their website I see where MSV and Comcast are not on
>speaking terms.  We're in absolutely no position to change our ISP and
>another email address, especially a Yahoo address, would be a real pain.
>Ed Weldon

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 11 13:55:51 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com & Engine Analyzer Software
In-Reply-To: <00a801c89bf2$5a1e8680$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <401599.34767.qm@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The computer simulator peggedmy old motor at 774 HP, the real dyno showed 541 HP.  The simulator shows my new motor at 725 HP.  the real dyno showed 800 HP.  I don't think muych of the computer dyno programs.
   
  Dick J
  In east Texas

neil at dbelltech.com wrote:
  Jon;

Yes, I was just looking at the site; I hope this bodes well for its
continuation.

BTW; has anyone ever used one of those engine simulation programs? What did
you think of them? Are they worthwhile at all? 

I tried "Dyno 2003" and the results looked flakey. I hadn't expected very
accurate results but the fact that the header pipe lengths aren't factored
in and that every time the cam timing is retarded the HP increases but
advancing the cam timing does nothing at all makes me suspicious that much
of what is supposed to be analyzed by the software really is not taken into
consideration.

Dave, I think I know what your answer is going to be.....

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Jon Wennerberg
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 7:18 AM
To: Land Speed Digest
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com

Hey hey hey! Did you go to the landracing.com site this morning? 
Take a look -- all hope is not lost. Sure hope it'll all be back and 
running soon...

Jon , tall guy with moustache
and two 200 MPH Club hats
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as lsr_man at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Apr 11 14:58:23 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:58:23 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com & Engine Analyzer Software
In-Reply-To: <00a801c89bf2$5a1e8680$0200a8c0@DBTech>
References: <E4D8C757-5D40-424A-A225-B7922F65C87F@nancyandjon.org>
	<00a801c89bf2$5a1e8680$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <833933DFBF364DBFB18FFDE697681AF9@DaveSatellite>

Well Neil what did you pay for it???

I used a long while back a program I think called dynomation and it was 
pretty good gave pressure volume graphs and wanted to know everything about 
the engine. funny I don't think any of them ask about the oiling system and 
there is a lot there. Wet sump vs. 5 stage dry sump is a big deal all on 
it's own..
Now the current stuff is the Ricardo software though you may want to rent 
some time on it rather than buy it. Personally I wish the Fluent CFD package 
for cylinder heads would come down a little bit and I might be a player for 
it. I already have a solid modeling package so it would basically be a take 
the model and have Fluent blow some air through it and tell me the bad or 
good news..
Dave
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com & Engine Analyzer Software
>
> BTW; has anyone ever used one of those engine simulation programs? What 
> did
> you think of them? Are they worthwhile at all?
>
> I tried "Dyno 2003" and the results looked flakey. I hadn't expected very
> accurate results but the fact that the header pipe lengths aren't factored
> in and that every time the cam timing is retarded the HP increases but
> advancing the cam timing does nothing at all makes me suspicious that much
> of what is supposed to be analyzed by the software really is not taken 
> into
> consideration.
>
> Dave, I think I know what your answer is going to be.....
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From DCarr511 at msn.com  Fri Apr 11 15:24:06 2008
From: DCarr511 at msn.com (Duane Carr)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:24:06 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Drag Racers & LSR Racers
Message-ID: <BLU111-DAV11A279143468C6990D37FA96EF0@phx.gbl>

  Trust me .. The " Drag Racers " at MSV have NO intention of telling LSR
Racers how to do their motorsport. Actually quite the opposite was the
response I received from the Admins and other Moderators as they were very
interested in hearing from LSR Racers about aerodynamics and getting engines
to live for 3 - 5 miles at high RPM's.

What I had suggested to those at MSV was to start a LSR Category for LSR
Racers ... and of course for those that want to ask LSR Racers questions. They
arent interested in the SCTA or ECTA's Rules and regulations or the way or
reasons why they do things. All they are interested in is making HP and
building engines that live make HP.

I promise you that there would be NO Hate or discontent going on as the group
there is mature and understand that even though we have some very
knowledgeable members they understand that they could learn something from
anyone.

Our policy has been is its OK to disagree but not to be disagreeable and argue
it out. It hasn't happened yet and wont be allowed to happen.

The only reason I proposed creating a LSR Category on MSV was looking at a
worst case scenario of landracing.net's forum not opening up again. And as an
Ex Drag Racer and now a glorified LSR Fan I wanted a LSR Forum to visit and
was just trying to create a possibility.

Since there now seems to be perspective buyers for Jons site and forum I have
informed those at MSV that a LSR Category likely wouldn't be needed. But that
can change if there is an interest.

Without a Doubt landracing.net has been the BEST LSR site on the web and I
hope it opens up again and continues where it left off.


Take Care,
        Duane

From karlepayne55 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 11 15:55:08 2008
From: karlepayne55 at yahoo.com (Karl Payne)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:55:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Ceramic Coating
In-Reply-To: <47FEB810.5030406@charter.net>
Message-ID: <139523.61146.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I run a Ford 4 cyl turbo motor in a very small engine compartment.  Before coating, I used to melt wires regularly.  Went to a ceramic coating of the turbine housing and exh. manifold, voila; no more toasted wires.
  I used a local flame spray house, used zirconia for the coating (actually it gets welded to the substrate via the flame spray process) because that is what is used in some parts of jet engines on the hot side.
  Pricey, but I swear by it.  Plus it looks nice an white, never discolors, chips or flakes off.
   
  My $.02, YMMV.
   
  Karl

DougOdom <dlodom at charter.net> wrote:
  Anyone have any experience with the amount of heat reduction in the 
engine compartment with ceramic coating the headers? Is it more or less 
effective than wrappings? Can you wrap the coated headers then take the 
wrapping off and clean the header? Thinking of keeping the engine area 
in a rear engine streamliner as cool as is possible.
Doug Odom in big ditch
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as karlepayne55 at yahoo.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From dlodom at charter.net  Fri Apr 11 17:30:36 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:30:36 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Ceramic coating & wrapping
Message-ID: <001f01c89c2c$0b7f8620$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>

First, A big thank you to everyone that sent information about this subject.

I think I will wrap the coated headers and take the wrapping off when the car
is not being run. These are nascar stainless steel headers and now they have
been coated. Al had them coated down in Australia. The only problem people
seem to have had is the rust and corrosion that devolves under the wrapping.
The extra insolation seems to be  worth the effort of wrapping and unwrapping
and cleaning out the salt.
 As I have not seen the liner in over a year while it stayed in Australia I am
eager to get my hands on it again in 3 weeks. Still cleaning the shop and
moving things to get that long (27ft) lump inside when it get back.

Doug Odom in big ditch

From dlodom at charter.net  Fri Apr 11 17:39:01 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (DougOdom)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:39:01 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] ceramic coatings email Test
Message-ID: <47FFF695.3080300@charter.net>

I have been trying to thank all the people that sent info on ceramic 
coating and wrapping but land-speed at autox.team.net  keeps refusing my 
emails.
Doug Odom in big ditch

From neil at dbelltech.com  Fri Apr 11 17:43:12 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:43:12 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com & Engine Analyzer Software
In-Reply-To: <833933DFBF364DBFB18FFDE697681AF9@DaveSatellite>
References: <E4D8C757-5D40-424A-A225-B7922F65C87F@nancyandjon.org>
	<00a801c89bf2$5a1e8680$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<833933DFBF364DBFB18FFDE697681AF9@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <00e601c89c2d$d17fe3a0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Dave, Mayf, & Dick;

I haven't bought it yet; I tried a borrowed copy to see if it looked any
good at all. I'm afraid Ricardo is over my head and budget but some of the
others may not be. 

One thing I see is that if I use an "individual runner" manifold to
approximate a stack injection system the choice of CFM values look all
wrong. The only thing that seems to make lots of High RPM horsepower with
Dyno 2003 is a tunnel ram manifold.

I'm still playing with it.  (the SOFTWARE, guys!!!)

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ



-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] 
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:58 PM
To: neil at dbelltech.com; 'Jon Wennerberg'; 'Land SpeedDigest'
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Landracing.com & Engine Analyzer Software

Well Neil what did you pay for it???

I used a long while back a program I think called dynomation and it was 
pretty good gave pressure volume graphs and wanted to know everything about 
the engine. funny I don't think any of them ask about the oiling system and 
there is a lot there. Wet sump vs. 5 stage dry sump is a big deal all on 
it's own..
Now the current stuff is the Ricardo software though you may want to rent 
some time on it rather than buy it. Personally I wish the Fluent CFD package

for cylinder heads would come down a little bit and I might be a player for 
it. I already have a solid modeling package so it would basically be a take 
the model and have Fluent blow some air through it and tell me the bad or 
good news..
Dave
Subject: [Land-speed] Landracing.com & Engine Analyzer Software
>
> BTW; has anyone ever used one of those engine simulation programs? What 
> did
> you think of them? Are they worthwhile at all?
>
> I tried "Dyno 2003" and the results looked flakey. I hadn't expected very
> accurate results but the fact that the header pipe lengths aren't factored
> in and that every time the cam timing is retarded the HP increases but
> advancing the cam timing does nothing at all makes me suspicious that much
> of what is supposed to be analyzed by the software really is not taken 
> into
> consideration.
>
> Dave, I think I know what your answer is going to be.....
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 12 08:29:59 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:29:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
Message-ID: <66446.11866.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does anybody know of a website that has a reference chart on wire sizes needed to wire a car.  Maybe a street rod site or something.  I'm re-wiring my race car and need some help.  I'm not too concerned with wire sizes to each device, as most of them had pigtails and I figure I can just use the same size or next size larger. I even have instructions left for some items. I'm concerned with what size lead I need going to the master fuse panel. I need to supply a monster fuel pump, three cooling fans, the ignition, electric water pump, etc.  Originally, I took all of the individual leads directly off of a master disconnect switch, so they were supplied directly from a battery cable.  Now, I'm going to go from the master switch to a fuse panel, and then to individual toggles. What size wire needs to supply that fuse panel?
  thanks
  DickJ 
  In east Texas
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From karhu at california.com  Sat Apr 12 09:48:29 2008
From: karhu at california.com (Benn)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:48:29 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
References: <66446.11866.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c89cb4$a7c28a90$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>

Basically it's just a matter of adding up all the potential concurrent loads
on the downstream side of the fuse panel (current draw for each motor,
etc.).  Once you have the total amperage required, a DC chart which
undoubtedly will be provided by someone else on the list, will provide your
answer.  I'd guess 6 or 8 ga. stranded will do the job. Since you wouldn't
expect each fused circuit to run at the maximum rating of each circuit's
fuse, you don't have to make the feed wire large enough to handle the sum of
all the fuses, although that would be a very conservative way to look at it.
Benn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
To: "lsr list autox" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 7:29 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car


> Does anybody know of a website that has a reference chart on wire sizes
> needed to wire a car.  Maybe a street rod site or something.  I'm
> re-wiring my race car and need some help.  I'm not too concerned with wire
> sizes to each device, as most of them had pigtails and I figure I can just
> use the same size or next size larger. I even have instructions left for
> some items. I'm concerned with what size lead I need going to the master
> fuse panel. I need to supply a monster fuel pump, three cooling fans, the
> ignition, electric water pump, etc.  Originally, I took all of the
> individual leads directly off of a master disconnect switch, so they were
> supplied directly from a battery cable.  Now, I'm going to go from the
> master switch to a fuse panel, and then to individual toggles. What size
> wire needs to supply that fuse panel?
>  thanks
>  DickJ
>  In east Texas
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as karhu at california.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From karhu at california.com  Sat Apr 12 09:51:31 2008
From: karhu at california.com (Benn)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:51:31 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] non-LSR aircraft AC frequency
Message-ID: <002101c89cb5$1412a900$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>

Hey gang, why have old (and maybe current) aircraft used 400 hz?  Are
alternators or DC-to-AC converters more efficient at this frequency than our
typical home 60 hz?
Benn

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Apr 12 10:30:40 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:30:40 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
In-Reply-To: <001a01c89cb4$a7c28a90$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
References: <66446.11866.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<001a01c89cb4$a7c28a90$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
Message-ID: <CF30567A35BC47ED9C0B4C3500BDFC3F@DaveSatellite>

With 4 or 6 gage I would put in a 100 amp fusible link with 8 ga run a 60 
amp one..
If you need that much electricity run a alternator rated for more than the 
connected loads as well
Do not use AC rated amperage for DC it is not the same also goes for 
switches and relays...
Make sure you have grounds equal to the task as well. Every trip to the salt 
change the ground wiring it will fail first, a polarity thing..
The chassis is not ground ever.. Like all roads lead to Rome in theory 
anyway I would have picked Paris for my own reasons not because it is Paris 
but because there is a 5'6" blonde hair blued eyed beauty I spend some 
memorable time with living there..LOL all grounds lead to a common point 
with large gauge wires larger than the feed as they degrade quickly..
Belden wire should have an online chart for amperage and while their wire is 
not my wire of choice at least not the automotive ones you can get them at 
NAPA and know what they are rated for...
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Benn" <karhu at california.com>
To: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>; "lsr list autox" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car


> Basically it's just a matter of adding up all the potential concurrent 
> loads
> on the downstream side of the fuse panel (current draw for each motor,
> etc.).  Once you have the total amperage required, a DC chart which
> undoubtedly will be provided by someone else on the list, will provide 
> your
> answer.  I'd guess 6 or 8 ga. stranded will do the job. Since you wouldn't
> expect each fused circuit to run at the maximum rating of each circuit's
> fuse, you don't have to make the feed wire large enough to handle the sum 
> of
> all the fuses, although that would be a very conservative way to look at 
> it.
> Benn

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Apr 12 10:46:16 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:46:16 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] non-LSR aircraft AC frequency
In-Reply-To: <002101c89cb5$1412a900$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
References: <002101c89cb5$1412a900$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
Message-ID: <011301c89cbc$bbb70e60$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Benn;

Aircraft used 400Hz AC power because far less iron was needed in the
magnetic cores of the transformers used in the electronics. This reduced the
size & weight of the transformers considerably. Some systems had 800 or 1200
Hz as well. 

Car alternators operate at relatively high frequency to reduce the iron,
too. The AC output is converted to DC by the built- in rectifiers.

The Navy didn't much care about the weight of shipboard equipment so they
used mostly 60Hz systems.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Benn
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:52 AM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] non-LSR aircraft AC frequency

Hey gang, why have old (and maybe current) aircraft used 400 hz?  Are
alternators or DC-to-AC converters more efficient at this frequency than our
typical home 60 hz?
Benn
_______________________________________________

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Apr 12 10:48:20 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:48:20 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
In-Reply-To: <66446.11866.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <66446.11866.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011401c89cbd$05b30730$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Dick;

If I had a very heavy load I'd think about splitting the system into
branches; this way each branch can deal with lower current.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Dick J
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 7:30 AM
To: lsr list autox
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car

Does anybody know of a website that has a reference chart on wire sizes
needed to wire a car.  Maybe a street rod site or something.  I'm re-wiring
my race car and need some help.  I'm not too concerned with wire sizes to
each device, as most of them had pigtails and I figure I can just use the
same size or next size larger. I even have instructions left for some items.
I'm concerned with what size lead I need going to the master fuse panel. I
need to supply a monster fuel pump, three cooling fans, the ignition,
electric water pump, etc.  Originally, I took all of the individual leads
directly off of a master disconnect switch, so they were supplied directly
from a battery cable.  Now, I'm going to go from the master switch to a fuse
panel, and then to individual toggles. What size wire needs to supply that
fuse panel?
  thanks
  DickJ 
  In east Texas

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Apr 12 10:52:17 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:52:17 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
In-Reply-To: <CF30567A35BC47ED9C0B4C3500BDFC3F@DaveSatellite>
References: <66446.11866.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com><001a01c89cb4$a7c28a90$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
	<CF30567A35BC47ED9C0B4C3500BDFC3F@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <011b01c89cbd$94ad0c60$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Dave;

I agree-- switch & relay contacts, etc are rated separately for AC and DC
operation. Make sure the toggle switches are rated for high current DC
operation; using a 110VAC rated toggle switch on 12 or 24VDC will insure
early failure-- the contacts are different for AC & DC operation.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Dave Dahlgren
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:31 AM
To: Benn; Dick J; lsrlist autox
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car

With 4 or 6 gage I would put in a 100 amp fusible link with 8 ga run a 60 
amp one..
If you need that much electricity run a alternator rated for more than the 
connected loads as well
Do not use AC rated amperage for DC it is not the same also goes for 
switches and relays...
Make sure you have grounds equal to the task as well. Every trip to the salt

change the ground wiring it will fail first, a polarity thing..
The chassis is not ground ever.. Like all roads lead to Rome in theory 
anyway I would have picked Paris for my own reasons not because it is Paris 
but because there is a 5'6" blonde hair blued eyed beauty I spend some 
memorable time with living there..LOL all grounds lead to a common point 
with large gauge wires larger than the feed as they degrade quickly..
Belden wire should have an online chart for amperage and while their wire is

not my wire of choice at least not the automotive ones you can get them at 
NAPA and know what they are rated for...
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Benn" <karhu at california.com>
To: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>; "lsr list autox" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car


> Basically it's just a matter of adding up all the potential concurrent 
> loads
> on the downstream side of the fuse panel (current draw for each motor,
> etc.).  Once you have the total amperage required, a DC chart which
> undoubtedly will be provided by someone else on the list, will provide 
> your
> answer.  I'd guess 6 or 8 ga. stranded will do the job. Since you wouldn't
> expect each fused circuit to run at the maximum rating of each circuit's
> fuse, you don't have to make the feed wire large enough to handle the sum 
> of
> all the fuses, although that would be a very conservative way to look at 
> it.
> Benn
_______________________________________________
ed

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 12 10:56:13 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:56:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
In-Reply-To: <011401c89cbd$05b30730$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <351852.99363.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The circuits I'm looking at are:  Fuel Pump 15a; water pump 30a; fans 30a, trans cooler 10a; driver air blower 10a.  I don't know what to fuse the ignition at.
   
  Dick
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Sat Apr 12 11:02:41 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:02:41 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
Message-ID: <20080412180207.77D711878A6@autox.team.net>

Try:
http://www.tessco.com/yts/industry/products/itm/automotive/get_wired.html

There is a comprehensive chart there.

Skip




At 07:29 AM 4/12/2008, you wrote:
>Does anybody know of a website that has a reference chart on wire 
>sizes needed to wire a car.  Maybe a street rod site or 
>something.  I'm re-wiring my race car and need some help.  I'm not 
>too concerned with wire sizes to each device, as most of them had 
>pigtails and I figure I can just use the same size or next size 
>larger. I even have instructions left for some items. I'm concerned 
>with what size lead I need going to the master fuse panel. I need to 
>supply a monster fuel pump, three cooling fans, the ignition, 
>electric water pump, etc.  Originally, I took all of the individual 
>leads directly off of a master disconnect switch, so they were 
>supplied directly from a battery cable.  Now, I'm going to go from 
>the master switch to a fuse panel, and then to individual toggles. 
>What size wire needs to supply that fuse panel?
>   thanks
>   DickJ
>   In east Texas

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 12 11:04:30 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:04:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Fuses and Amp ratings
Message-ID: <4119.79129.qm@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Those are fuse ratings that I listed for my circuits, not actual line draw. I figure a #10 wire to the fuse box should be good.  My water pump is fused separately, and the driver air blower will probably be fused with an in-line too rather than through the fuse panel.
   
  Dick J
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From v4gr at rcn.com  Sat Apr 12 11:37:12 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:37:12 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] non-LSR aircraft AC frequency
References: <002101c89cb5$1412a900$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
Message-ID: <002201c89cc3$d7f51ca0$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

When I retired and I bet still today, The galley equipment was 400 cycle 
110. Every so once in a while I would have to make a modification to the 
coffee maker test stand. They would not shut down the whole stand so I could 
work on one part of it. Usually I would get bit. Wakes you right up.  RF
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Benn" <karhu at california.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:51 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] non-LSR aircraft AC frequency


> Hey gang, why have old (and maybe current) aircraft used 400 hz?  Are
> alternators or DC-to-AC converters more efficient at this frequency than 
> our
> typical home 60 hz?
> Benn 

From saltfever at comcast.net  Sat Apr 12 14:56:35 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:56:35 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Analyzer Software
Message-ID: <000401c89cdf$b3fb9ab0$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Great question Neil and one I have been interested in for a long time.  I
agree with you about most of the software.  Since SAE has some credibility
you might want to look at DynoSim.  SAE lists it on their website for either
$149 or $199 depending on options. I just haven't had the time to evaluate
it. Go here
<http://www.sae.org/servlets/otherProduct?PROD_CD=PD220513&PROD_TYP=PDD&COMM
ON_SUCCESS=TRUE>  for the SAE page.



Part of its description follows: . . . .  The simulation calculates the gas
dynamic, thermodynamic, and frictional physics of virtually any 4-cycle
internal-combustion engine. Horsepower is determined from an analysis and
integration of cylinder pressures from 2000 to 11,000rpm. All basic engine
components and specifications are accurately modeled, including bore,
stroke, 1-to-12 cylinders, a wide range of cylinder heads and port
configurations, valve sizes, compression ratios, naturally-aspirated and
forced-induction systems, airflow, exhaust systems, and virtually any
camshaft timing or valve lift. American and Metric units are supported, and
conversion between unit systems is instantaneous.

  -Elon

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Apr 12 15:26:14 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:26:14 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
In-Reply-To: <351852.99363.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <011401c89cbd$05b30730$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<351852.99363.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <012501c89ce3$db510b50$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Dick;

 

You might look in the archives; a while back I posted a table of recommended
wire sizes for current draw that I found in an aerospace handbook. It also
had fuse/circuit breaker sizes for various wire sizes. 

 

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

 

 

  _____  

From: Dick J [mailto:lsr_man at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:56 AM
To: neil at dbelltech.com; 'lsr list autox'
Subject: RE: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car

 

The circuits I'm looking at are:  Fuel Pump 15a; water pump 30a; fans 30a,
trans cooler 10a; driver air blower 10a.  I don't know what to fuse the
ignition at.

 

Dick

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sat Apr 12 16:01:34 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:01:34 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Analyzer Software
In-Reply-To: <000401c89cdf$b3fb9ab0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
References: <000401c89cdf$b3fb9ab0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <012d01c89ce8$c7ce4930$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Elon;

Thanks for the reference to DynoSim. I went to their website and took a
look; I even downloaded their instruction manual and learned a bit about
what the software assumes and what is analyzed and what is not. The DynoSim
software looks VERY similar to Dyno 2003; I wonder if it was developed by
the same people.

I did find out why the tunnel ram manifold looked like a stack injector
system-- this is from their manual:

"The tunnel-ram selections in the DynoSim can also accurately model
fuel-injection systems with medium-to-large, individual stacks. Strictly
speaking, while the simulation reproduces the effects of short runners and a
large-volume plenum, this design also mimics short injector stacks that open
to the atmosphere. For one-barrel-per cylinder Weber carburetion or
very-small-diameter, individual-injector systems, use the Individual Runner
manifold described next. However, for medium-to-large-diameter injectors,
like Hillborn or Crower systems, the Standard and Max. Custom tunnel-ram
manifold models-along with the appropriate airflow selection (for all
cylinders combined)-provides an accurate induction simulation."

My simulation results make more sense now that I know this.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Elon
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:57 PM
To: land-speed submit
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Analyzer Software

Great question Neil and one I have been interested in for a long time.  I
agree with you about most of the software.  Since SAE has some credibility
you might want to look at DynoSim.  SAE lists it on their website for either
$149 or $199 depending on options. I just haven't had the time to evaluate
it. Go here
<http://www.sae.org/servlets/otherProduct?PROD_CD=PD220513&PROD_TYP=PDD&COMM
ON_SUCCESS=TRUE>  for the SAE page.



Part of its description follows: . . . .  The simulation calculates the gas
dynamic, thermodynamic, and frictional physics of virtually any 4-cycle
internal-combustion engine. Horsepower is determined from an analysis and
integration of cylinder pressures from 2000 to 11,000rpm. All basic engine
components and specifications are accurately modeled, including bore,
stroke, 1-to-12 cylinders, a wide range of cylinder heads and port
configurations, valve sizes, compression ratios, naturally-aspirated and
forced-induction systems, airflow, exhaust systems, and virtually any
camshaft timing or valve lift. American and Metric units are supported, and
conversion between unit systems is instantaneous.

  -Elon

From saltfever at comcast.net  Sat Apr 12 16:02:12 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Analyzer Software
Message-ID: <000001c89ce8$deabdcd0$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Dave, I bought a one year, 2-seat, license, for Fluent for my former company
in 2004.  It cost $37,000 and included one week of training for two people.
That was a license; we could not make an outright purchase! We sent two
brilliant engineers to the one week class. They both came back indicating
how difficult the class was!  They continued to labor with the software for
a year but lost interest due to the time it was taking them away from other
demands. The license was not renewed.  I notice that JCB owns multi-seat
licenses of Fluent! If you are premier world class manufacturer and
competitor to Caterpillar I can see how Fluent would be an excellent R & D
tool to optimize fluid systems. I lust after such software tools; however,
as an amateur LSRer, I'll have to settle for an aged SuperFlow bench on
eBay.  :-)   -Elon

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Sat Apr 12 21:14:11 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:14:11 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
References: <20080412180207.77D711878A6@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <001801c89d14$73faeb70$f4c71718@S>

Skip -- Many thanks.  Real nice charts.  I printed the two out on heavy card
stock and they'll hang up right out in the shop.
Ed
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Skip Higginbotham" <saltrat at pahrump.com>
To: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
Cc: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
> Try:
> http://www.tessco.com/yts/industry/products/itm/automotive/get_wired.html
> There is a comprehensive chart there.
> Skip

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 13 07:49:04 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:49:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
In-Reply-To: <001801c89d14$73faeb70$f4c71718@S>
Message-ID: <455401.16337.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes Skip, thanks.  I too printed them out and put them in my ring binder. They had the answers to my questions.
   
  DickJ

Ed Weldon <23.weldon at comcast.net> wrote:
  Skip -- Many thanks. Real nice charts. I printed the two out on heavy card
stock and they'll hang up right out in the shop.
Ed
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Skip Higginbotham" 
To: "Dick J" 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Electrical Wiring in Race Car
> Try:
> http://www.tessco.com/yts/industry/products/itm/automotive/get_wired.html
> There is a comprehensive chart there.
> Skip
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sun Apr 13 10:36:54 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:36:54 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
Message-ID: <833A5AC4762E458C944C2C02B752B92F@LindaPC>

Does anyone have the current 2 Club minimums of cars?---thanks

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sun Apr 13 10:40:08 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:40:08 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
In-Reply-To: <833A5AC4762E458C944C2C02B752B92F@LindaPC>
References: <833A5AC4762E458C944C2C02B752B92F@LindaPC>
Message-ID: <1D74A3D2FF434EE486A3834A6A3626D9@DaveSatellite>

Are you trying to start an Amish rake fight here LOL?? 
No offense to the Amish intended only an old saying around here..

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sparky" <sparky.2211 at cox.net>
To: "AA List" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums


> Does anyone have the current 2 Club minimums of cars?---thanks

From Jimwprice at aol.com  Sun Apr 13 10:43:22 2008
From: Jimwprice at aol.com (Jimwprice at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:43:22 EDT
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
Message-ID: <d07.2c6267b5.3533922a@aol.com>

Speaking of the two club, does anyone have a faster record in the book than  
Sparky and still not be a member in the club?  



**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & 
Finance.      (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Sun Apr 13 11:05:57 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:05:57 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
References: <833A5AC4762E458C944C2C02B752B92F@LindaPC>
Message-ID: <004201c89d88$a485e2d0$6501a8c0@Glens>

As I understand it they are being updated now and not ready to publish. Have 
you tried to contact the 200 club and ask them for any info.
GB
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sparky" <sparky.2211 at cox.net>
To: "AA List" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums


> Does anyone have the current 2 Club minimums of cars?---thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From nt788 at comcast.net  Sun Apr 13 11:18:31 2008
From: nt788 at comcast.net (nt788 at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:18:31 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
Message-ID: <041320081718.12274.48024067000AE45A00002FF22216548686C8C8C99B02@comcast.net>

Look in the record book!
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Jimwprice at aol.com
> Speaking of the two club, does anyone have a faster record in the book than  
> Sparky and still not be a member in the club?  
> 
> 
> 
> **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & 
> Finance.      (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Land-speed mailing list
> 
> You are subscribed as nt788 at comcast.net
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Sun Apr 13 11:37:32 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:37:32 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
Message-ID: <52004.1208108252@nancyandjon.org>

   Here's  an  interesting  discovery:  First of all, the 2 Club's URL is
   www.bonneville200mph.org.   So  I  went  there  and  clicked  on  "Car
   minimums"  and  got  told  "You  are not authorized to view this page.
   Please  log  in."   Hunh?  But when I clicked on bike minimums -- they
   came right up.
   How'd their machine know I'm a bike guy?  It must be magic.
   Realistically, I might have last year's list of minimums at the house,
   along  with  other  2  Club  stuff.  I'll check to see if you're still
   looking when I get home, later.
   Ta-ta for now.
   Jon
   On Sun Apr 13 11:36 , "Sparky" sent:

     Does anyone have the current 2 Club minimums of cars?---thanks
     _______________________________________________
     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
     Land-speed mailing list
     You are subscribed as j onwennerberg at nancyandjon.org
     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Sun Apr 13 11:44:57 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:44:57 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
References: <52004.1208108252@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <004d01c89d8e$177ec540$6501a8c0@Glens>

Jon
Read my post, they are working on them now.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org>
To: "'AA List'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>; "'Sparky'" 
<sparky.2211 at cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums


>   Here's  an  interesting  discovery:  First of all, the 2 Club's URL is
>   www.bonneville200mph.org.   So  I  went  there  and  clicked  on  "Car
>   minimums"  and  got  told  "You  are not authorized to view this page.
>   Please  log  in."   Hunh?  But when I clicked on bike minimums -- they
>   came right up.
>   How'd their machine know I'm a bike guy?  It must be magic.
>   Realistically, I might have last year's list of minimums at the house,
>   along  with  other  2  Club  stuff.  I'll check to see if you're still
>   looking when I get home, later.
>   Ta-ta for now.
>   Jon
>   On Sun Apr 13 11:36 , "Sparky" sent:
>
>     Does anyone have the current 2 Club minimums of cars?---thanks
>     _______________________________________________
>     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Land-speed mailing list
>     You are subscribed as j onwennerberg at nancyandjon.org
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Sun Apr 13 11:54:18 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:54:18 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
In-Reply-To: <004d01c89d8e$177ec540$6501a8c0@Glens>
References: <52004.1208108252@nancyandjon.org>
	<004d01c89d8e$177ec540$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <5B0D4A4F-ADF2-4725-B4E3-A06CD3EE8E53@nancyandjon.org>

On Apr 13, 2008, at 1:44 PM, Glen Barrett wrote:

Jon
Read my post, they are working on them now.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- From: <jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org>
To: "'AA List'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>; "'Sparky'" <sparky. 
2211 at cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums


>   Here's  an  interesting  discovery:  First of all, the 2 Club's  
> URL is
>   www.bonneville200mph.org.   So  I  went  there  and  clicked  on   
> "Car
>   minimums"  and  got  told  "You  are not authorized to view this  
> page.
>   Please  log  in."   Hunh?  But when I clicked on bike minimums --  
> they
>   came right up.
>   How'd their machine know I'm a bike guy?  It must be magic.
>   Realistically, I might have last year's list of minimums at the  
> house,
>   along  with  other  2  Club  stuff.  I'll check to see if you're  
> still
>   looking when I get home, later.
>   Ta-ta for now.
>   Jon
>   On Sun Apr 13 11:36 , "Sparky" sent:


Glen:

I read your post, but Sparky's question also asked (in effect) where  
the minimums (whether up to date or old) could be found, so I  
answered that part of the question to help him (and others) find them  
the next time they're looking.  Between us we'll answer all of the  
questions, you betcha, yes sir.



Jon , tall guy with moustache
and two 200 MPH Club hats

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Sun Apr 13 12:28:46 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:28:46 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
In-Reply-To: <1D74A3D2FF434EE486A3834A6A3626D9@DaveSatellite>
References: <833A5AC4762E458C944C2C02B752B92F@LindaPC>
	<1D74A3D2FF434EE486A3834A6A3626D9@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <20080413192807.D21B5187649@autox.team.net>

Convention MUST be changed to eliminate 2 and 3 Club "minimums.
Skip Higginbotham (the tangs are sharpened)






At 09:40 AM 4/13/2008, you wrote:
>Are you trying to start an Amish rake fight here LOL??
>No offense to the Amish intended only an old saying around here..
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sparky" <sparky.2211 at cox.net>
>To: "AA List" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:36 PM
>Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
>
>
> > Does anyone have the current 2 Club minimums of cars?---thanks

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Sun Apr 13 13:14:04 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:14:04 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
References: <52004.1208108252@nancyandjon.org>
	<004d01c89d8e$177ec540$6501a8c0@Glens>
	<5B0D4A4F-ADF2-4725-B4E3-A06CD3EE8E53@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <000c01c89d9a$8a9a1fa0$6501a8c0@Glens>

I picked up a 2 club book at speedweek last year that was current, but I know
several were broken at SW, WF and WOS. I don't have the book handy. Maybe a
2-club board member will step up and let everyone know the status.
Glen
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jon Wennerberg
  To: Glen Barrett
  Cc: 'AA List' ; 'Sparky'
  Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums




  On Apr 13, 2008, at 1:44 PM, Glen Barrett wrote:


  Jon
  Read my post, they are working on them now.
  Glen
  ----- Original Message ----- From: <jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org>
  To: "'AA List'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>; "'Sparky'"
<sparky.2211 at cox.net>
  Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums




      Here's  an  interesting  discovery:  First of all, the 2 Club's URL is
      www.bonneville200mph.org.   So  I  went  there  and  clicked  on  "Car
      minimums"  and  got  told  "You  are not authorized to view this page.
      Please  log  in."   Hunh?  But when I clicked on bike minimums -- they
      came right up.
      How'd their machine know I'm a bike guy?  It must be magic.
      Realistically, I might have last year's list of minimums at the house,
      along  with  other  2  Club  stuff.  I'll check to see if you're still
      looking when I get home, later.
      Ta-ta for now.
      Jon
      On Sun Apr 13 11:36 , "Sparky" sent:




  Glen:


  I read your post, but Sparky's question also asked (in effect) where the
minimums (whether up to date or old) could be found, so I answered that part
of the question to help him (and others) find them the next time they're
looking.  Between us we'll answer all of the questions, you betcha, yes sir.






  Jon , tall guy with moustache
  and two 200 MPH Club hats

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sun Apr 13 15:49:10 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:49:10 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums
In-Reply-To: <1D74A3D2FF434EE486A3834A6A3626D9@DaveSatellite>
References: <833A5AC4762E458C944C2C02B752B92F@LindaPC>
	<1D74A3D2FF434EE486A3834A6A3626D9@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <3C164D0C5C374F7DBBC6200B50D2FEC8@LindaPC>

not trying to start a rake fight---have been to the 200 club site multiple 
times ---Public has access to MC minimums---Car asks for a log in---- was 
wondering if they were posted or published some where else!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>
To: "Sparky" <sparky.2211 at cox.net>; "AA List" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] 2 club car minimums


> Are you trying to start an Amish rake fight here LOL?? No offense to the 
> Amish intended only an old saying around here..

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sun Apr 13 16:08:06 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:08:06 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 200 Club Site
Message-ID: <6A33596CEFEB49E7BA3195B85E5CEB50@LindaPC>

Records are being up dated and will be back up---thanks to all who
responded!!!!!!!!!!!

From rbuck at xmission.com  Sun Apr 13 20:36:23 2008
From: rbuck at xmission.com (Ray Buck)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:36:23 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] OT: 55 Corvette in Wendover
Message-ID: <E1JlEYx-0007Kg-3T@mgr1.xmission.com>

Remember the horribly neglected 55 Corvette that sat beside the 
garage in Wendover?:
http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2004/wfi/1011/20041011_026.html

The owner saw that picture on my site and we started keeping in touch 
via email.  Last week he sent me some photos of the frame-off 
restoration he's been doing.  I put a web page or 2 together and 
loaded 'em on my server.  There's a link to 'em from the 
above-mentioned page, but here's a direct link to the resto pages:
http://www.chevyasylum.com/mlander/ml.html

Check 'em out if you're of a mind to do so.

Ray the (organ-playing) Rat

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Sun Apr 13 21:36:09 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (J.D. Tone)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:36:09 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] OT: 55 Corvette in Wendover
References: <E1JlEYx-0007Kg-3T@mgr1.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c89de0$ae744630$0200a8c0@mydf7618c59bbf>

Love those no filter 265's..............................



> Remember the horribly neglected 55 Corvette that sat beside the 
> garage in Wendover?:
> http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2004/wfi/1011/20041011_026.html

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Mon Apr 14 13:15:54 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:15:54 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Tuessday chat line,  landracing.com
Message-ID: <00ee01c89e63$f6aea250$6501a8c0@Glens>

I just did a test and you can log onto the chat line. As far as I know we can
use it tomorrow night. Pass it along.
The forums are still blocked.
Glen

From neil at dbelltech.com  Mon Apr 14 17:18:10 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:18:10 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] OT: 55 Corvette in Wendover
In-Reply-To: <E1JlEYx-0007Kg-3T@mgr1.xmission.com>
References: <E1JlEYx-0007Kg-3T@mgr1.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <008701c89e85$d03a9bc0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Thanks, Ray. I've wondered about whatever happened to it.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Ray Buck
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:36 PM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] OT: 55 Corvette in Wendover

Remember the horribly neglected 55 Corvette that sat beside the 
garage in Wendover?:
http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2004/wfi/1011/20041011_026.html

The owner saw that picture on my site and we started keeping in touch 
via email.  Last week he sent me some photos of the frame-off 
restoration he's been doing.  I put a web page or 2 together and 
loaded 'em on my server.  There's a link to 'em from the 
above-mentioned page, but here's a direct link to the resto pages:
http://www.chevyasylum.com/mlander/ml.html

Check 'em out if you're of a mind to do so.

Ray the (organ-playing) Rat
_______________________________________________

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Tue Apr 15 08:44:52 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:44:52 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] BBC rods
Message-ID: <384D616361AE42BDAA918F15AD76DB0C@LindaPC>

I am looking for 2 used Carrillo 6.405 rods for a BBC to give me a
set---thanks

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Apr 16 14:23:42 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:23:42 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
Message-ID: <4806604E.2060704@mayfco.com>

I have a trunk mounted "catch can" right now. The overflow comes in from 
the radiator pressure cap and enters the can (actually a 3 gallon or so 
SS tank, lol). The tank has a over flow tube itself and that dumps 
overboard. Not a likely event because the can holds more that the 
radiator and engine combined. But, I need to replace it with something 
smaller as the space where the tank is curenly located is going to be 
occupied by a water injection system pump and tank. I see that Summit 
has plastic catch cans that hold a qt or so, but it looks like they are 
non vented types. The overflow comes in at the top and there is a drain 
valve at the bottom for clean out. Is this something I want to use or is 
there something better but still reasonable in cost? Seems to me that as 
water or steam comes into the overflow it is going to compress the air 
trapped inside making it not so efficient?  In any case is it even 
necessary? Do all of you other folk have radiator overflow catch cans? 
If so, what are you using that is new and novel or just plain usefull?

mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump where the )(&^%)^^%$( wind 
continues to blow

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Apr 16 14:28:53 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:28:53 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
In-Reply-To: <4806604E.2060704@mayfco.com>
References: <4806604E.2060704@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <031797348BDD47B6B624CF3BF6368C3F@DaveSatellite>

No vent?? do you have a drill LOL.. Seriously why not pipe the radiator 
overflow into the turbo down pipe after the turbo?? Me thinks it might 
evaporate...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:23 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...


>I have a trunk mounted "catch can" right now. The overflow comes in from
> the radiator pressure cap and enters the can (actually a 3 gallon or so
> SS tank, lol). The tank has a over flow tube itself and that dumps
> overboard. Not a likely event because the can holds more that the
> radiator and engine combined. But, I need to replace it with something
> smaller as the space where the tank is curenly located is going to be
> occupied by a water injection system pump and tank. I see that Summit
> has plastic catch cans that hold a qt or so, but it looks like they are
> non vented types. The overflow comes in at the top and there is a drain
> valve at the bottom for clean out. Is this something I want to use or is
> there something better but still reasonable in cost? Seems to me that as
> water or steam comes into the overflow it is going to compress the air
> trapped inside making it not so efficient?  In any case is it even
> necessary? Do all of you other folk have radiator overflow catch cans?
> If so, what are you using that is new and novel or just plain usefull?
>
> mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump where the )(&^%)^^%$( wind
> continues to blow

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Apr 16 14:36:44 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:36:44 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
In-Reply-To: <4806604E.2060704@mayfco.com>
References: <4806604E.2060704@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <018301c8a001$97d6fe40$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Mayf;

Cruise through your local junkyard and find a coolant recovery tank that
looks like it will work. Most are plastic these days.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
drmayf
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:24 PM
To: LSR
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...

I have a trunk mounted "catch can" right now. The overflow comes in from 
the radiator pressure cap and enters the can (actually a 3 gallon or so 
SS tank, lol). The tank has a over flow tube itself and that dumps 
overboard. Not a likely event because the can holds more that the 
radiator and engine combined. But, I need to replace it with something 
smaller as the space where the tank is curenly located is going to be 
occupied by a water injection system pump and tank. I see that Summit 
has plastic catch cans that hold a qt or so, but it looks like they are 
non vented types. The overflow comes in at the top and there is a drain 
valve at the bottom for clean out. Is this something I want to use or is 
there something better but still reasonable in cost? Seems to me that as 
water or steam comes into the overflow it is going to compress the air 
trapped inside making it not so efficient?  In any case is it even 
necessary? Do all of you other folk have radiator overflow catch cans? 
If so, what are you using that is new and novel or just plain usefull?

mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump where the )(&^%)^^%$( wind 
continues to blow
_______________________________________________

From v4gr at rcn.com  Wed Apr 16 14:51:11 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:51:11 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
References: <4806604E.2060704@mayfco.com>
	<018301c8a001$97d6fe40$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <000a01c8a003$9b1fd5c0$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

Mine just dumps overboard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...


> Mayf;
>
> Cruise through your local junkyard and find a coolant recovery tank that
> looks like it will work. Most are plastic these days.
>
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
> [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> drmayf
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:24 PM
> To: LSR
> Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
>
> I have a trunk mounted "catch can" right now. The overflow comes in from
> the radiator pressure cap and enters the can (actually a 3 gallon or so
> SS tank, lol). The tank has a over flow tube itself and that dumps
> overboard. Not a likely event because the can holds more that the
> radiator and engine combined. But, I need to replace it with something
> smaller as the space where the tank is curenly located is going to be
> occupied by a water injection system pump and tank. I see that Summit
> has plastic catch cans that hold a qt or so, but it looks like they are
> non vented types. The overflow comes in at the top and there is a drain
> valve at the bottom for clean out. Is this something I want to use or is
> there something better but still reasonable in cost? Seems to me that as
> water or steam comes into the overflow it is going to compress the air
> trapped inside making it not so efficient?  In any case is it even
> necessary? Do all of you other folk have radiator overflow catch cans?
> If so, what are you using that is new and novel or just plain usefull?
>
> mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump where the )(&^%)^^%$( wind
> continues to blow
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as v4gr at rcn.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Wed Apr 16 15:46:37 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:46:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
Message-ID: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'm like you Rich my roadster just dumps at the rear of the car; but it's a tank system with no radiator. My coupe has only a radiator and an electric pump. I do have a catch bottle with that one. It goes in the cap with the hose extending to the bottom. There is a 1/8" hole in the top to relieve pressure. When cooling, it sucks the expanded coolant back in. All kind are available at McMaster-Carr: square, rectangle, round, etc...Mounts/brackets are pretty east to make....Good Luck

>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
>
>
>> Mayf;
>>
>> Cruise through your local junkyard and find a coolant recovery tank that
>> looks like it will work. Most are plastic these days.
>>
>> >>
>> I have a trunk mounted "catch can" right now. The overflow comes in from
>> the radiator pressure cap and enters the can (actually a 3 gallon or so
>> SS tank, lol). The tank has a over flow tube itself and that dumps
>> overboard. Not a likely event because the can holds more that the
>> radiator and engine combined. But, I need to replace it with something
>> smaller as the space where the tank is curenly located is going to be
>> occupied by a water injection system pump and tank. I see that Summit
>> has plastic catch cans that hold a qt or so, but it looks like they are
>> non vented types. The overflow comes in at the top and there is a drain
>> valve at the bottom for clean out. Is this something I want to use or is
>> there something better but still reasonable in cost? Seems to me that as
>> water or steam comes into the overflow it is going to compress the air
>> trapped inside making it not so efficient?  In any case is it even
>> necessary? Do all of you other folk have radiator overflow catch cans?
>> If so, what are you using that is new and novel or just plain usefull?
>>
>> mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump where the )(&^%)^^%$( wind
>> continues to blow
>> _______________________________________________
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> Land-speed mailing list
>>
>> You are subscribed as v4gr at rcn.com
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as gmc6power at earthlink.net
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From v4gr at rcn.com  Wed Apr 16 18:33:51 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:33:51 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
References: <4806604E.2060704@mayfco.com><018301c8a001$97d6fe40$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<000a01c8a003$9b1fd5c0$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>
	<BAY104-W18B4426F696B825E082C48CBE50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001201c8a022$b66abd80$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

I'm not dumping alot of water and if it's good enough for Tone it's good
enough for me. If somebody wants to be really slick I have a stainless can
that was a filter housing for a Boing 720 pottable water system that would
make a lovely catch can. I used it for my water injection years ago.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John Streeter
  To: Rich Fox
  Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:18 PM
  Subject: RE: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...


  I would use a  Can just to keep it off the Track.

  JR Streeter
  S & H Landspeed Racing
  www.saltfever.com


  > From: v4gr at rcn.com
  > To: neil at dbelltech.com; drmayf at mayfco.com; land-speed at autox.team.net
  > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:51:11 -0700
  > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
  >
  > Mine just dumps overboard
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
  > To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
  > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:36 PM
  > Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
  >
  >
  > > Mayf;

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Apr 16 18:39:41 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:39:41 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
In-Reply-To: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>

Hmmmm, quite frankly I hadn't even thought about a coolant recovery 
system. I like that even better than a throw away system. I'll go look 
at some tomorrow at autozone or carquest or checkers or whatever it is 
way uptown in Pahrump. Just for drill though, doesn't a coolant recovery 
system need a pressure cap on the radiator that  can let the expelled 
coolant back into the system? I run a pretty good pressure cap as I 
recall. My coolant system is a scirroco radiator buried in a water tank. 
The water tank is vented overboard but the engine coolant was going to a 
big holding tank when it over flowed.

mayf

James Tone wrote:

>I'm like you Rich my roadster just dumps at the rear of the car; but it's a tank system with no radiator. My coupe has only a radiator and an electric pump. I do have a catch bottle with that one. It goes in the cap with the hose extending to the bottom. There is a 1/8" hole in the top to relieve pressure. When cooling, it sucks the expanded coolant back in. All kind are available at McMaster-Carr: square, rectangle, round, etc...Mounts/brackets are pretty east to make....Good Luck
>
>  
>
>>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>>>Mayf;
>>>
>>>Cruise through your local junkyard and find a coolant recovery tank that
>>>looks like it will work. Most are plastic these days.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>I have a trunk mounted "catch can" right now. The overflow comes in from
>>>the radiator pressure cap and enters the can (actually a 3 gallon or so
>>>SS tank, lol). The tank has a over flow tube itself and that dumps
>>>overboard. Not a likely event because the can holds more that the
>>>radiator and engine combined. But, I need to replace it with something
>>>smaller as the space where the tank is curenly located is going to be
>>>occupied by a water injection system pump and tank. I see that Summit
>>>has plastic catch cans that hold a qt or so, but it looks like they are
>>>non vented types. The overflow comes in at the top and there is a drain
>>>valve at the bottom for clean out. Is this something I want to use or is
>>>there something better but still reasonable in cost? Seems to me that as
>>>water or steam comes into the overflow it is going to compress the air
>>>trapped inside making it not so efficient?  In any case is it even
>>>necessary? Do all of you other folk have radiator overflow catch cans?
>>>If so, what are you using that is new and novel or just plain usefull?
>>>
>>>mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump where the )(&^%)^^%$( wind
>>>continues to blow
>>>___________________________________________

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Apr 16 19:01:57 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:01:57 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
In-Reply-To: <48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Mayf;

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that any pressure cap has a vacuum relief valve
built- in. I have never bought one that made any reference to this but it
seems logical-- just one of those unsung features.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ



-----Original Message-----
From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:40 PM
To: James Tone
Cc: Rich Fox; neil at dbelltech.com; 'LSR'
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...

Hmmmm, quite frankly I hadn't even thought about a coolant recovery 
system. I like that even better than a throw away system. I'll go look 
at some tomorrow at autozone or carquest or checkers or whatever it is 
way uptown in Pahrump. Just for drill though, doesn't a coolant recovery 
system need a pressure cap on the radiator that  can let the expelled 
coolant back into the system? I run a pretty good pressure cap as I 
recall. My coolant system is a scirroco radiator buried in a water tank. 
The water tank is vented overboard but the engine coolant was going to a 
big holding tank when it over flowed.

mayf

James Tone wrote:

>I'm like you Rich my roadster just dumps at the rear of the car; but it's a
tank system with no radiator. My coupe has only a radiator and an electric
pump. I do have a catch bottle with that one. It goes in the cap with the
hose extending to the bottom. There is a 1/8" hole in the top to relieve
pressure. When cooling, it sucks the expanded coolant back in. All kind are
available at McMaster-Carr: square, rectangle, round, etc...Mounts/brackets
are pretty east to make....Good Luck
>
>  
>
>>>Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>>>Mayf;
>>>
>>>Cruise through your local junkyard and find a coolant recovery tank that
>>>looks like it will work. Most are plastic these days.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>I have a trunk mounted "catch can" right now. The overflow comes in from
>>>the radiator pressure cap and enters the can (actually a 3 gallon or so
>>>SS tank, lol). The tank has a over flow tube itself and that dumps
>>>overboard. Not a likely event because the can holds more that the
>>>radiator and engine combined. But, I need to replace it with something
>>>smaller as the space where the tank is curenly located is going to be
>>>occupied by a water injection system pump and tank. I see that Summit
>>>has plastic catch cans that hold a qt or so, but it looks like they are
>>>non vented types. The overflow comes in at the top and there is a drain
>>>valve at the bottom for clean out. Is this something I want to use or is
>>>there something better but still reasonable in cost? Seems to me that as
>>>water or steam comes into the overflow it is going to compress the air
>>>trapped inside making it not so efficient?  In any case is it even
>>>necessary? Do all of you other folk have radiator overflow catch cans?
>>>If so, what are you using that is new and novel or just plain usefull?
>>>
>>>mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump where the )(&^%)^^%$( wind
>>>continues to blow
>>>___________________________________________

From RACE427 at aol.com  Wed Apr 16 19:46:41 2008
From: RACE427 at aol.com (RACE427 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:46:41 EDT
Subject: [Land-speed] Harley Davidson University ?  non LSR
Message-ID: <bbf.29dfadea.35380601@aol.com>

Hello Group,

   Anyone have a friend or contact who owns or manages a Harley Davidson 
Dealership?   I would like to attend Harley's Fuel Injection-computer mapping 
class at the HD University.   Problem is I need a dealer who is willing to sign me 
up, naturally I pay the fee for the class out of my pocket.  This would be a 
wonderful class for me to take and bring back the information on re-mapping 
software into school to share with my students.

    Can anyone help me?    Thanks !!!!!!  

 Tony Greco  LI,NY


**************
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site 
for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 16 20:41:02 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 02:41:02 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Harley Davidson University ?  non LSR
In-Reply-To: <bbf.29dfadea.35380601@aol.com>
References: <bbf.29dfadea.35380601@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W4407FE8F225B2D04890319D9E50@phx.gbl>

   if ya do I want ya to teach me OK Tony, Tony, no Baloney ?  ;-)   I just
got me a 2007  FLHRC... -natcherly I wanna go faster !  ;-)   - So I can
afford to go back to B'ville -of course!    inna hurry  ;-)


     c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug '
================================================================
> From: RACE427 at aol.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:46:41 -0400
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Land-speed] Harley Davidson University ?  non LSR


 Hello Group,

 Anyone have a friend or contact who owns or manages a Harley Davidson
Dealership?
I would like to attend Harley's Fuel Injection-computer mapping class at the
HD University.

Problem is I need a dealer who is willing to sign me  up, naturally I pay the
fee for the class
out of my pocket.  This would be a  wonderful class for me to take and bring
back the information
on re-mapping software into school to share with my students.
>
>     Can anyone help me?    Thanks !!!!!!                       Tony Greco
LI,NY

_________________________________________________________________
Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic.
http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51N1653
A

From boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 16 20:41:02 2008
From: boogiewoogie12 at hotmail.com (Doug Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 02:41:02 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Harley Davidson University ?  non LSR
In-Reply-To: <bbf.29dfadea.35380601@aol.com>
References: <bbf.29dfadea.35380601@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W27F3F793F9F8CC7145E273D9E50@phx.gbl>

   if ya do I want ya to teach me OK Tony, Tony, no Baloney ?  ;-)   I just
got me a 2007  FLHRC... -natcherly I wanna go faster !  ;-)   - So I can
afford to go back to B'ville -of course!    inna hurry  ;-)


     c heers to ya , ' Dirt Track Doug '
================================================================
> From: RACE427 at aol.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:46:41 -0400
> To: land-speed at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Land-speed] Harley Davidson University ?  non LSR


 Hello Group,

 Anyone have a friend or contact who owns or manages a Harley Davidson
Dealership?
I would like to attend Harley's Fuel Injection-computer mapping class at the
HD University.

Problem is I need a dealer who is willing to sign me  up, naturally I pay the
fee for the class
out of my pocket.  This would be a  wonderful class for me to take and bring
back the information
on re-mapping software into school to share with my students.
>
>     Can anyone help me?    Thanks !!!!!!                       Tony Greco
LI,NY

_________________________________________________________________
Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_
getintouch_042008

From v4gr at rcn.com  Wed Apr 16 20:51:42 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:51:42 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com> <01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <001f01c8a035$f8264e70$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

> Looks like to me that as the water heats it expands and pushes out teh 
> excess into a sealed container. As it cools it contracts and the pressure 
> now higher in the container pushes the water back. Venting would seem to 
> defeat the principal  RF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: drmayf [mailto:drmayf at mayfco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:40 PM
> To: James Tone
> Cc: Rich Fox; neil at dbelltech.com; 'LSR'
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
>
> Hmmmm, quite frankly I hadn't even thought about a coolant recovery
> system. I like that even better than a throw away system. I'll go look
> at some tomorrow at autozone or carquest or checkers or whatever it is
> way uptown in Pahrump. Just for drill though, doesn't a coolant recovery
> system need a pressure cap on the radiator that  can let the expelled
> coolant back into the system? I run a pretty good pressure cap as I
> recall. My coolant system is a scirroco radiator buried in a water tank.
> The water tank is vented overboard but the engine coolant was going to a
> big holding tank when it over flowed.
>
> mayf

From dlodom at charter.net  Wed Apr 16 22:22:01 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:22:01 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>
	<01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<001f01c8a035$f8264e70$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>
Message-ID: <005401c8a042$96103770$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>

The overflow tank must be vented. If you want to recover the water that is 
pushed out from expansion the hose from the motor must be below the level in 
the tank. Recovery systems must use a recovery type rad. cap. There are 2 
rubber seals on the recovery type cap. As the motor cools it pulls the water 
back passed the flapper valve in the cap. The flapper valve works like a one 
way valve. Set up correctly the system will burp the air out and the system 
will be 100% coolant if you don't open it. If you ever see a car with the 
hoses sucked together it is because the flapper valve is not working. My 
wifes car years ago had that happen.
Doug Odom in big ditch



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rich Fox" <v4gr at rcn.com>
To: <neil at dbelltech.com>; <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'James Tone'" 
<gmc6power at earthlink.net>
Cc: "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...


>> Looks like to me that as the water heats it expands and pushes out teh
>> excess into a sealed container. As it cools it contracts and the pressure
>> now higher in the container pushes the water back. Venting would seem to
>> defeat the principal  RF

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Apr 16 23:07:24 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:07:24 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
In-Reply-To: <005401c8a042$96103770$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>
	<01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<001f01c8a035$f8264e70$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>
	<005401c8a042$96103770$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>
Message-ID: <4806DB0C.6010008@mayfco.com>

Doug, that's kinda what I had remembered. I like the idea for use on the 
Sunbeam , now just gotta find one that has a high pressure cap as well 
as the recovery flapper...

mayf
Doug Odom wrote:

> The overflow tank must be vented. If you want to recover the water 
> that is pushed out from expansion the hose from the motor must be 
> below the level in the tank. Recovery systems must use a recovery type 
> rad. cap. There are 2 rubber seals on the recovery type cap. As the 
> motor cools it pulls the water back passed the flapper valve in the 
> cap. The flapper valve works like a one way valve. Set up correctly 
> the system will burp the air out and the system will be 100% coolant 
> if you don't open it. If you ever see a car with the hoses sucked 
> together it is because the flapper valve is not working. My wifes car 
> years ago had that happen.
> Doug Odom in big ditch
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" <v4gr at rcn.com>
> To: <neil at dbelltech.com>; <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'James Tone'" 
> <gmc6power at earthlink.net>
> Cc: "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
>
>
>>> Looks like to me that as the water heats it expands and pushes out teh
>>> excess into a sealed container. As it cools it contracts and the 
>>> pressure
>>> now higher in the container pushes the water back. Venting would 
>>> seem to
>>> defeat the principal  RF

From v4gr at rcn.com  Thu Apr 17 07:38:13 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:38:13 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>
	<01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<001f01c8a035$f8264e70$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>
	<005401c8a042$96103770$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>
	<4806DB0C.6010008@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c8a090$499eae50$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

That sounds better than my way.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "Doug Odom" <dlodom at charter.net>
Cc: "Rich Fox" <v4gr at rcn.com>; <neil at dbelltech.com>; "'James Tone'" 
<gmc6power at earthlink.net>; "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...


> Doug, that's kinda what I had remembered. I like the idea for use on the 
> Sunbeam , now just gotta find one that has a high pressure cap as well as 
> the recovery flapper...
>
> mayf
> Doug Odom wrote:
>
>> The overflow tank must be vented. If you want to recover the water that 
>> is pushed out from expansion the hose from the motor must be below the 
>> level in the tank. Recovery systems must use a recovery type rad. cap. 
>> There are 2 rubber seals on the recovery type cap. As the motor cools it 
>> pulls the water back passed the flapper valve in the cap. The flapper 
>> valve works like a one way valve. Set up correctly the system will burp 
>> the air out and the system will be 100% coolant if you don't open it. If 
>> you ever see a car with the hoses sucked together it is because the 
>> flapper valve is not working. My wifes car years ago had that happen.
>> Doug Odom in big ditch
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Fox" <v4gr at rcn.com>
>> To: <neil at dbelltech.com>; <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'James Tone'" 
>> <gmc6power at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
>>
>>
>>>> Looks like to me that as the water heats it expands and pushes out teh
>>>> excess into a sealed container. As it cools it contracts and the 
>>>> pressure
>>>> now higher in the container pushes the water back. Venting would seem 
>>>> to
>>>> defeat the principal  RF

From saltracer at awwwsome.com  Thu Apr 17 10:12:20 2008
From: saltracer at awwwsome.com (Tom Bryant)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:12:20 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com> <01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <480776E4.000016.04984@D3DP98F1>

I run a overflow tank for the simple reason that, with it, the radiator is
always full and any expansion is caught and returned to the radiator when it
cools down.

PS: an update on my alcohol burner...we dynoed last Saturday and found that
we were running too much timing, I think Dave and suggested that we try less
 we were running 39-40 BTDC. We retarded to 36 and picked up hp, then
retarded to 34 and picked up again.
This dyno gave us 605 hp @ 8500 and was still climbing. Less hp than our
previous dyno on gasoline in 2002 (665 @ 7900), but I was forewarned that it
would likely read less than other dynos because the atmospheric adjustments
are made automatically,  but was brutally honest. "Proof of the Pudding"
will come at the Lakes in May.

We ran 37 BTDC on gasoline back in 2003. One thing that may have contributed
to the need for less timing was that we changed cams after our blowup @
Speedweek. The cam is just a wee bit bigger and was installed straight up.
The previous set up ran 4 degrees retarded. What do you think?

Tom, Redding CA - #216 D/FCC

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg]

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of imstp_pets_cat1_en.gif]

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Apr 17 12:08:33 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:08:33 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Alky Burner
In-Reply-To: <480776E4.000016.04984@D3DP98F1>
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>
	<01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<480776E4.000016.04984@D3DP98F1>
Message-ID: <6C5800EF35354F1984751F1FC9A6FFBA@DaveSatellite>

I have never had an alky engine that needed more than a gasoline one ever... 
The octane of methanol is 102 most any racing gas is 108 to 118.. Well to be 
correct there is no octane numbers over 100 after that they are referred to 
as performance numbers. Did you try 32? If not why not LOL... On a dyno 
sheet always ask for both corrected and uncorrected HP and torque and write 
down on the sheet the weather conditions baro air temp and relative 
humidity. That way you can verify any corrected numbers are accurate. Better 
yet bring your own weather station and get those numbers yourself in the 
dyno cell seconds after the pull and close the door behind you on the way to 
help preserve the conditions in there. Usually I leave the baro sensor and 
air temp sensor in the cell and dash in to get RH.. That being said I only 
bother with this if it is a shop I have never worked with and am concerned 
about having a dyno that is either a bit 'fast' or 'slow'. A quick look will 
tell you if it is necessary or if the numbers don't make sense.

Tell me about the cam for a 5 liter engine 605 is painfully light..on alky.. 
duration at 0.050 lobe separation lift rockers all that jazz.  What size 
butterflies in the injector and assume 18 degree heads as they are very 
common. Compression ratio is of some concern as well and if this is 
proprietary just send them straight to me and not the list..

Now if things are a bit dicey at speedweek and it is wednesday or later and 
you need a mph or two I would take the chance of adding a degree or two of 
advance because of the density altitude... But it is the last thin to try 
not the first..
Dave

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Bryant" <saltracer at awwwsome.com>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'James Tone'" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>; 
<neil at dbelltech.com>
Cc: "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Radiator Catch Cans...


> PS: an update on my alcohol burner...we dynoed last Saturday and found 
> that
> we were running too much timing, I think Dave and suggested that we try 
> less
> we were running 39-40 BTDC. We retarded to 36 and picked up hp, then
> retarded to 34 and picked up again.
> This dyno gave us 605 hp @ 8500 and was still climbing. Less hp than our
> previous dyno on gasoline in 2002 (665 @ 7900), but I was forewarned that 
> it
> would likely read less than other dynos because the atmospheric 
> adjustments
> are made automatically,  but was brutally honest. "Proof of the Pudding"
> will come at the Lakes in May.
>
> We ran 37 BTDC on gasoline back in 2003. One thing that may have 
> contributed
> to the need for less timing was that we changed cams after our blowup @
> Speedweek. The cam is just a wee bit bigger and was installed straight up.
> The previous set up ran 4 degrees retarded. What do you think?
>
> Tom, Redding CA - #216 D/FCC

From DCarr511 at msn.com  Fri Apr 18 09:59:20 2008
From: DCarr511 at msn.com (Duane Carr)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:59:20 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] 292 6 cyl. questions
Message-ID: <BLU111-DAV89014C758D79711E6311796E40@phx.gbl>

I have a friend who is interested in building up a 292 6 Cyl. can anyone offer
any suggestions as to suppliers for a forged crankshaft, performance camshaft
and other pieces ? I told him about Clifford Performance as they are the only
ones I know of.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,
    Duane

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 18 10:45:08 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:45:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] 292 6 cyl. questions
Message-ID: <13755465.1208537108600.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Have him go to www.inliners.org In fact joining Inliners International maybe something he may enjoy. They can lead you to the best suppliers and guys who know a lot about the 194-292 ci Chevrolet/GMC engines...Good Luck 

>Subject: [Land-speed] 292 6 cyl. questions
>
>I have a friend who is interested in building up a 292 6 Cyl. can anyone offer
>any suggestions as to suppliers for a forged crankshaft, performance camshaft
>and other pieces ? I told him about Clifford Performance as they are the only
>ones I know of.
>
>Any info would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>    Duane
>_______________________________________________

From v4gr at rcn.com  Fri Apr 18 10:51:38 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:51:38 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 292 6 cyl. questions
References: <BLU111-DAV89014C758D79711E6311796E40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000601c8a174$78fe7740$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

Your friend might look at Leo Santucci's book "Chevrolet Inline Six-Cylinder 
Power Manual"  Lots of parts are available from Sissell, Langdon's and many 
others. Most of it stuff I would rather have then Cliffords. Your friend 
could also look into Inliners International as a source of inline 
information. Many LSR guys are members.  RF Inliner #9
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane Carr" <DCarr511 at msn.com>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 8:59 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] 292 6 cyl. questions


>I have a friend who is interested in building up a 292 6 Cyl. can anyone 
>offer
> any suggestions as to suppliers for a forged crankshaft, performance 
> camshaft
> and other pieces ? I told him about Clifford Performance as they are the 
> only
> ones I know of.
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>    Duane 

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Fri Apr 18 12:33:45 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:33:45 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] 292 6 cyl. questions
In-Reply-To: <BLU111-DAV89014C758D79711E6311796E40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU111-DAV89014C758D79711E6311796E40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47F05417E4BE4209B1D6BEC43D0717B2@LindaPC>

Glenn Self--Self racing engines Durant, OK.   has been racing Chevy sixes 
for almost 50 years---  He has some STUFF and tricks to try to keep them 
from self destructing at high RPM from VIBRATION!!!!!
----- Original Message -----  

From adin at frontier.net  Fri Apr 18 17:00:16 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:00:16 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] spam for Mayf
Message-ID: <000801c8a1a7$f803fb40$6401a8c0@ZTxp>

Larry,
shipped your stuff.  The jets I thought were your were NOT.

Will search some more, in the meantime you should plan otherwise.

UPS sayd Tuesday.

Best,

David

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 18 17:24:02 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:24:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil
Message-ID: <256041.6985.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What's your choice for differential oil?  I've heard everything from standard gear lube to SAE30. I'm not running limited slip, I have a spool.
   
  DickJ
  In East Texas
   

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From neil at dbelltech.com  Fri Apr 18 17:56:45 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:56:45 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil
In-Reply-To: <256041.6985.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <256041.6985.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02dc01c8a1af$e1545bd0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Dick;

If you have a hypoid rear end :) then you need an appropriate gear oil, not
SAE 30W.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Dick J
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 4:24 PM
To: lsr list autox
Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil

What's your choice for differential oil?  I've heard everything from
standard gear lube to SAE30. I'm not running limited slip, I have a spool.
   
  DickJ
  In East Texas

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Fri Apr 18 18:25:12 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:25:12 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw:  Differential Oil
Message-ID: <001301c8a1b3$d8080000$6501a8c0@S>

Fwd to list (I forgot to hit the "reply to all" button)
Ed
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: <neil at dbelltech.com>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Differential Oil


> Neil states conventional wisdom.  i.e. what we know works.
> But I can't help but wonder how a rear axle gearset would hold up in the
> short duty/highload application of an LSR vehicle with a plain synthetic
> 10w-30 like Mobil 1.
> Has anyone tried this with a hypoid gearset like in a 9"?  How about with
a
> bevel gear set like in a quickchange early Ford ring/pinion? Presumably
this
> would be less sensitive to the boundary lubrication issues in the hypoid
> gear set.
> And in either application, but especially the quickchange, was the oil
> leakage manageable?  Was there any measurable increase in efficiency
enough
> to notice in the speed?
> I hasten to add that I wouldn't be too inclined to try experimenting with
> something like this if I were seriously trying to qualify for a record
run.
> Of course, it's easy to change out a 9" pumpkin if you have a spare and
> you're in a  "throw the whole can in the fuel tank"
> mode.
> Ed Weldon
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
> To: "'Dick J'" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>; "'lsr list autox'"
> <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Differential Oil
> > Dick;
> > If you have a hypoid rear end :) then you need an appropriate gear oil,
> not
> > SAE 30W.
> > Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
> > [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf
Of
> > Dick J
> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 4:24 PM
> > To: lsr list autox
> > Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil
> > What's your choice for differential oil?  I've heard everything from
> > standard gear lube to SAE30. I'm not running limited slip, I have a
spool.
> >   DickJ   In East Texas

From yesford at clear.net.nz  Fri Apr 18 18:50:25 2008
From: yesford at clear.net.nz (Chris Harris)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:50:25 +1200
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw:  Differential Oil
References: <001301c8a1b3$d8080000$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <4A2A836E26224827AF8E028E7675EF1C@ChrisHarrisPC>

 Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil
 What's your choice for differential oil?  I've heard everything from
 standard gear lube to SAE30. I'm not running limited slip, I have a
spool.
DickJ   In East Texas

Dick, try Red Line Oil,  Lightweight Shockproof.
Fills all your specific requirements.
Here is link to product:
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_gearlubricants.asp?productID=43&subCategor
yID=16&categoryID=6

Cheers,
Chris Harris.............NZed.

From bobbyhotrods at comcast.net  Fri Apr 18 19:34:15 2008
From: bobbyhotrods at comcast.net (bobbyhotrods at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:34:15 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Inliners
Message-ID: <041920080134.25843.48094C170002FCF3000064F322092246279C0B019D9B0108970D0D010D@comcast.net>

Gees if on the site isn't there a story about a get together at Sonny Rossi's Goat Farm down in Texas. 
No puns, either! BJ

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Apr 18 23:09:29 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:09:29 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Alky Burner and formula Holden ignition
In-Reply-To: <4808FB55.4090502@wildblue.net>
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com>
	<01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech>
	<480776E4.000016.04984@D3DP98F1>
	<6C5800EF35354F1984751F1FC9A6FFBA@DaveSatellite>
	<4808FB55.4090502@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <CE08A7F9B0F64A51B348F8600EF916ED@DaveSatellite>

Thanks for the kind words I do what I do and try to be a straight shooter. 
Now I have a problem. I have a Buick engine out of a formulae Holden. It has 
a trigger wheel on the crank with two rings one has 18 teeth on the outer 
ring and the inner has 3. I need to buy an ignition module for the thing and 
need to know an application. Napa lists 5 different ones and other info is 
very sparse. BTW it has no cam sensor any help greatly appreciated. I need 
an application for a place like Napa I had them look up formula Holden to no 
avail..LOL
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bryan Savage" <basavage at wildblue.net>
To: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>
Cc: "Tom Bryant" <saltracer at awwwsome.com>; <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "'James 
Tone'" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>; <neil at dbelltech.com>; "'LSR'" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Alky Burner


>
> List,
>
> Shure is nice to have a modern day Smokey on the list. We just got the 
> real story that
> would have cost big bucks.
>
> Thanks Dave!
>
> Bryan
>
>
>
> Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>> I have never had an alky engine that needed more than a gasoline one 
>> ever... The octane of methanol is 102 most any racing gas is 108 to 118.. 
>> Well to be correct there is no octane numbers over 100 after that they 
>> are referred to as performance numbers. Did you try 32? If not why not 
>> LOL... On a dyno sheet always ask for both corrected and uncorrected HP 
>> and torque and write down on the sheet the weather conditions baro air 
>> temp and relative humidity. That way you can verify any corrected numbers 
>> are accurate. Better yet bring your own weather station and get those 
>> numbers yourself in the dyno cell seconds after the pull and close the 
>> door behind you on the way to help preserve the conditions in there. 
>> Usually I leave the baro sensor and air temp sensor in the cell and dash 
>> in to get RH.. That being said I only bother with this if it is a shop I 
>> have never worked with and am concerned about having a dyno that is 
>> either a bit 'fast' or 'slow'. A quick look will tell you if it is 
>> necessary or if the numbers don't make sense.
>>
>> Tell me about the cam for a 5 liter engine 605 is painfully light..on 
>> alky.. duration at 0.050 lobe separation lift rockers all that jazz. 
>> What size butterflies in the injector and assume 18 degree heads as they 
>> are very common. Compression ratio is of some concern as well and if this 
>> is proprietary just send them straight to me and not the list..
>>
>> Now if things are a bit dicey at speedweek and it is wednesday or later 
>> and you need a mph or two I would take the chance of adding a degree or 
>> two of advance because of the density altitude... But it is the last thin 
>> to try not the first..
>> Dave

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Apr 19 15:30:46 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:30:46 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Alky Burner and formula Holden ignition
In-Reply-To: <000f01c8a22c$0773a7e0$6501a8c0@Rick>
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com><01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech><480776E4.000016.04984@D3DP98F1><6C5800EF35354F1984751F1FC9A6FFBA@DaveSatellite><4808FB55.4090502@wildblue.net>
	<CE08A7F9B0F64A51B348F8600EF916ED@DaveSatellite>
	<000f01c8a22c$0773a7e0$6501a8c0@Rick>
Message-ID: <E5BC708F752B4085BFF2974968C14D8E@DaveSatellite>

That is an urban myth in my book as all engines like small good atomizing 
injectors at a high pressure so it does not matter what the fuel is.. IE. 
Alky likes.....
It does make the switch to alky easier as the injectors do not have to have 
as big an orifice as they would at 40 psi.I generally run between 50 and 72 
on most everything and juggle pump capacity by running a bigger injector at 
a slightly lower pressure than 72 if need be to buy a little headroom on the 
pump if needed.
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Byrnes" <Rick at RBMotorsports.com>
To: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>; "Bryan Savage" 
<basavage at wildblue.net>
Cc: "'LSR'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Alky Burner and formula Holden ignition


> Dave
> On another subject relative to Alky, I recently heard someone say that 
> methanol likes 80 psig injection pressure.  On my switch from race gas on 
> the efi motor we have been using traditional 40 psig as a set point on a 
> non boosted motor.
> Is this higher pressure beneficial?
> I suspect so, because we are flowing two times the fuel, the higher 
> pressure will help atomization.
>
> Rick 

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sat Apr 19 21:38:01 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:38:01 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil
In-Reply-To: <256041.6985.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <256041.6985.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5A25B1F6DDC64A8FBB4C4015363A99AF@LindaPC>

Mobil 1 10W-50W

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
To: "lsr list autox" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 4:24 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil


> What's your choice for differential oil?  I've heard everything from 
> standard gear lube to SAE30. I'm not running limited slip, I have a spool.
>
>  DickJ
>  In East Texas

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 20 14:36:32 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:36:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Differential Oil Vote Counted
In-Reply-To: <480B8A2A.5070603@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <65587.88285.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Mobil One Synthetic Gear Oil won the vote.  I just bought a jug of it.  Surprisingly, nobody even mentioned Royal Purple Gear Oil.
   
  Dick J


       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From lsr_man at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 20 14:39:34 2008
From: lsr_man at yahoo.com (Dick J)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Which Automatic Transmission Fluid for Racing
Message-ID: <728085.89759.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm inclined to go with Mobil One Synthetic high performance automatic transission fluid in the new TCI TH-350 in the racecar.  Anybody got any other thoughts about ATF?
   
  Dick J
  In East Texas

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

From dlodom at charter.net  Sun Apr 20 16:37:34 2008
From: dlodom at charter.net (Doug Odom)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:37:34 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Which Automatic Transmission Fluid for Racing
References: <728085.89759.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001401c8a337$20ff2520$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>

I like the way the inside of my TH-350 looks when I take it apart. I use the 
Mobil One Synthetic ATF. In fact I use Mobil One products in the motor, 
trans and rearend.      Doug Odom in big ditch


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
To: "lsr list autox" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Which Automatic Transmission Fluid for Racing


> I'm inclined to go with Mobil One Synthetic high performance automatic 
> transission fluid in the new TCI TH-350 in the racecar.  Anybody got any 
> other thoughts about ATF?

From ifixmgs at cox.net  Sun Apr 20 20:51:23 2008
From: ifixmgs at cox.net (ifixmgs at cox.net)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:51:23 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Which Automatic Transmission Fluid for Racing
In-Reply-To: <001401c8a337$20ff2520$6401a8c0@YOUR588B4A13EA>
Message-ID: <20080420225123.YP5HD.172724.imail@eastrmwml24.mgt.cox.net>

Mobil1 has become  the trans juice of choice for most folks who tow big horse trailers,  and full time  RV'ers (who are mostly anal about maintenance)  all swear by the stuff.  I can't imagine any automatic  trans  getting a harder workout than a loaded  bus-sized travel trailer  or a   maxed out combo four-horse-sleeper trailer being hauled across the desert or over the the mountains, or in stop and go traffic in hill country on a 110* day.   

I use Mobil 1 ATF (and oil)  in my  '90 Suburban which hauls a portly  28 foot steel dual axle horse trailer.   We got a  "whopping"  20%  difference in fuel mileage (9 mpg  all the way to 11 mpg... ). But it definitely shifts smoother and does a far better job transferring heat out of the trans and releasing it at the cooler.  I've only changed the filter and fluid once, after about 50k miles, and there was far less pixie dust in the pan than there was at 30k when I switched to Mobil.     
   
The only application I know of  where   synthetic ATF has been  problematic is  in  T-5 gearboxes (possibly others) .  I used a quart of B&M Trick Shift (unaware that it was synthetic) in my drag car.   After suffering missed shifts, and realizing the problem,  we tried a drain and refill but wound up taking the trans apart, rinsing it out with solvent and switching to petrol based before the problem completely went away. Synthetic must be very slippery compared to conventional ATF. 

My diff lube of choice  is SWEPCO 201  synthetic  racing diff lube - I won a 22 gallon drum of the stuff in 2001 at an NMRA event.  It's pretty pricey -  about $28 a gallon  then,  and  $40 now, but I've come to swear by it.  I used it in a screaming- loud Frankland quick change in a neighbor's hot rod  that had worn bearings and  wobbly  gear shafts, and it has remained eerily quiet.   It also silenced an early MGB banjo rear that had  bearing rust-damage from having been submerged in water without being properly drained and cleaned out.   My original plan was just to use it to get the car driveable, but after 5 years, it's still quiet even at 70 mph.  
 
Mark C 
at the edge of the Great Dismal Swamp

---- Doug Odom <dlodom at charter.net> wrote: 
> I like the way the inside of my TH-350 looks when I take it apart. I use the 
> Mobil One Synthetic ATF. In fact I use Mobil One products in the motor, 
> trans and rearend.      Doug Odom in big ditch
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dick J" <lsr_man at yahoo.com>
> To: "lsr list autox" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 1:39 PM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Which Automatic Transmission Fluid for Racing
> 
> 
> > I'm inclined to go with Mobil One Synthetic high performance automatic 
> > transission fluid in the new TCI TH-350 in the racecar.  Anybody got any 
> > other thoughts about ATF?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Land-speed mailing list
> 
> You are subscribed as ifixmgs at cox.net
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Apr 22 13:39:15 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:39:15 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] web site
Message-ID: <009101c8a4b0$8fa36a70$6501a8c0@Glens>

www.landracing.com is back on line. Use it for what it was intended for, if
you abuse it we might lose it again forever. Chat line is active as well, hope
to see and talk tonight.
Glen

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Tue Apr 22 20:12:21 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:12:21 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] web site
References: <009101c8a4b0$8fa36a70$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <001401c8a4e7$79bfe940$6501a8c0@S>

I saw this machinist tip from the publisher of Home Shop Machinist and
Digital Machinist and figured some of you guys who like to do your own
machining on small engines in the J and K category as well as small bike
engines might find something useful here.
Grinding on the Mill   by George Bulliss
http://homeshopmachinist.net/passblast/dm/dmapr08.html
I'd note here that an imaginative machinist could easily gimmick up a power
down feed for the mill spindle for the slow feed plunge grinding process
George Bulliss describes.
Ed Weldon

From lgmcafee at mchsi.com  Wed Apr 23 06:34:17 2008
From: lgmcafee at mchsi.com (Larry McAfee)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:34:17 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Land speed  web site
Message-ID: <000a01c8a53e$5947eb20$6402a8c0@Macattack>

I looked this up and the article made it sound a who lot easier than it is. I
bore out small motors (outboards) on my mill and have thought about grindings
cyl for a while. You need some kind of rotary table (that I have) that would
turn or a cnc machine that would move to make this work. Just having a
grinding wheel on a mandrel you still have a long way to go.
Larry Mac





I saw this machinist tip from the publisher of Home Shop Machinist and
Digital Machinist and figured some of you guys who like to do your own
machining on small engines in the J and K category as well as small bike
engines might find something useful here.
Grinding on the Mill   by George Bulliss
http://homeshopmachinist.net/passblast/dm/dmapr08.html
I'd note here that an imaginative machinist could easily gimmick up a power
down feed for the mill spindle for the slow feed plunge grinding process
George Bulliss describes.
Ed Weldon

From v4gr at rcn.com  Wed Apr 23 09:46:44 2008
From: v4gr at rcn.com (Rich Fox)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:46:44 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Land speed  web site
References: <000a01c8a53e$5947eb20$6402a8c0@Macattack>
Message-ID: <000401c8a559$3c25c600$6401a8c0@your55e5f9e3d2>

Back in the bad old days when I worked for a living, really back, we used to 
grind-plate-grind jugs for P&W 2800 and CW 3350s on planetary grinders. It 
was kind of strange at first, but worked OK. The spindle rotated one way and 
the grinding wheel spun the opposite way. You set the radius of the spindles 
rotation and the depth of the stroke. Every body called the machine "Wobble 
Annie"  Much later they got jig grinders that did the same thing but 
smaller. never ran one of those but was a lead for the guy who did.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry McAfee" <lgmcafee at mchsi.com>
To: "land speed" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:34 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Land speed web site


>I looked this up and the article made it sound a who lot easier than it is. 
>I
> bore out small motors (outboards) on my mill and have thought about 
> grindings
> cyl for a while. You need some kind of rotary table (that I have) that 
> would
> turn or a cnc machine that would move to make this work. Just having a
> grinding wheel on a mandrel you still have a long way to go.
> Larry Mac
>
>
>
>
>
> I saw this machinist tip from the publisher of Home Shop Machinist and
> Digital Machinist and figured some of you guys who like to do your own
> machining on small engines in the J and K category as well as small bike
> engines might find something useful here.
> Grinding on the Mill   by George Bulliss
> http://homeshopmachinist.net/passblast/dm/dmapr08.html
> I'd note here that an imaginative machinist could easily gimmick up a 
> power
> down feed for the mill spindle for the slow feed plunge grinding process
> George Bulliss describes.
> Ed Weldon 

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Apr 24 09:27:40 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:27:40 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
Message-ID: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>

Comments from members of SCTA-BNI and USFRA Officials..

No, not a bitch or a gripe at all, lol..

When the driver's meeting is complete and we set off to drive the 
course(s), would it be possible to tow my car during that drive? I need 
to calibrate an instrument over a measured mile. Yeah, it is my gee whiz 
electonic speedometer... Calibration involves simply starting the cal at 
the biginning and stopping it at the end.

I know this might need to be discussed by the officials, but, I am 
patient... answer can wait even until August for an answer if necessary...


mayf

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Thu Apr 24 09:42:49 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:42:49 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>
References: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <29C2FDAD-2B81-4353-B978-4B6B0AFDA0DD@nancyandjon.org>

On Apr 24, 2008, at 11:27 AM, drmayf wrote:

Comments from members of SCTA-BNI and USFRA Officials..

No, not a bitch or a gripe at all, lol..

When the driver's meeting is complete and we set off to drive the
course(s), would it be possible to tow my car during that drive? I need
to calibrate an instrument over a measured mile. Yeah, it is my gee whiz
electonic speedometer... Calibration involves simply starting the cal at
the biginning and stopping it at the end.

I know this might need to be discussed by the officials, but, I am
patient... answer can wait even until August for an answer if  
necessary...


mayf
_




By observation:  I've seen racers towing their trailers with bike on  
board on that ride down the course -- maybe even with race car on the  
trailer -- but I don't think I've seen a race vehicle being towed on  
the course inspection ride.  I don't know the official take on the  
subject -- just what I've seen.

Jon Wennerberg

From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Apr 24 11:14:34 2008
From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:14:34 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <29C2FDAD-2B81-4353-B978-4B6B0AFDA0DD@nancyandjon.org>
References: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>
	<29C2FDAD-2B81-4353-B978-4B6B0AFDA0DD@nancyandjon.org>
Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A6938CE@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>

 Why not just tow it from marker to marker alongside the course when you
get there?

Mike Meierle
#847 F/P/MP
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
ECTA Record Holder

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Thu Apr 24 11:27:33 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:27:33 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A6938CE@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>
References: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>
	<29C2FDAD-2B81-4353-B978-4B6B0AFDA0DD@nancyandjon.org>
	<7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A6938CE@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>
Message-ID: <4810C305.6090008@mayfco.com>

That might work, but it all depends on how close to the mile marker 
(start and say 1 mile) i can get. If I had to line up, say on the return 
roads, then parallax would be greatly increased.  It really would be 
better idf I could simply stop at the start line, punch the cal button 
tow to the 1 mile and stop and punch the cal button again. 

But, heck, I donot run the show! If that is hard to approve, them it is 
hard to approve, lol. If I had another measured mile source ont he salt 
that woul dbe great!  I can think of one alternate way but it would 
introduce some inaccuracy.

Thanks for the comment, it is a good one.

mayf
MEIERLE Mike wrote:

> Why not just tow it from marker to marker alongside the course when you
>get there?  
>
>Mike Meierle
>#847 F/P/MP
>SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
>ECTA Record Holder

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Thu Apr 24 11:58:05 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:58:05 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
References: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com><29C2FDAD-2B81-4353-B978-4B6B0AFDA0DD@nancyandjon.org><7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A6938CE@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>
	<4810C305.6090008@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000601c8a634$c17e4fd0$6501a8c0@S>

Mayf--
Just curious....What's that thing measuring for the 1 mile calibration?   Is
it picking up GPS readings and then using the mile to produce a correction
factor for the local curvature of the Earth?  Tire revolutions?  Something
mysterious that only surveyors and the Rice brothers would know about?
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "MEIERLE Mike" <Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:27 AM

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Thu Apr 24 12:35:43 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:35:43 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
References: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com><29C2FDAD-2B81-4353-B978-4B6B0AFDA0DD@nancyandjon.org><7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A6938CE@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>
	<4810C305.6090008@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <002301c8a63a$078c7a60$6501a8c0@Glens>

Mayf
I am not a board member but I doubt they will say yes. There is a lot going 
on setting up, test runs etc. The 1st day is always hard to get into the 
race mode with getting people in their work stations and having anyone on or 
near the course only adds to getting the event under way. The person to ask 
is the BNI event chairman Mike Waters.

Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "MEIERLE Mike" <Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


> That might work, but it all depends on how close to the mile marker
> (start and say 1 mile) i can get. If I had to line up, say on the return
> roads, then parallax would be greatly increased.  It really would be
> better idf I could simply stop at the start line, punch the cal button
> tow to the 1 mile and stop and punch the cal button again.
>
> But, heck, I donot run the show! If that is hard to approve, them it is
> hard to approve, lol. If I had another measured mile source ont he salt
> that woul dbe great!  I can think of one alternate way but it would
> introduce some inaccuracy.
>
> Thanks for the comment, it is a good one.
>
> mayf
> MEIERLE Mike wrote:
>
>> Why not just tow it from marker to marker alongside the course when you
>>get there?
>>
>>Mike Meierle
>>#847 F/P/MP
>>SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
>>ECTA Record Holder
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From jgmagoo at comcast.net  Thu Apr 24 12:44:56 2008
From: jgmagoo at comcast.net (jgmagoo at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:44:56 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Calibrating Electronic Speedometer
Message-ID: <042420081844.14929.4810D52800017FB500003A5122007613940101090E030906@comcast.net>

Dmayf, 

Why not just tow it down a short stretch of 'long lonesome highway' out where you live. There are quite mile markers all along the route. Or if you want to get more accurate, go 5 or 10 miles to get an even better reading.

Magoo

From adin at frontier.net  Thu Apr 24 13:48:19 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (adin at frontier.net)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:19 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Calibrating Electronic Speedometer
In-Reply-To: <042420081844.14929.4810D52800017FB500003A5122007613940101090E030906@comcast.net>
References: <042420081844.14929.4810D52800017FB500003A5122007613940101090E030906@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080424134819.merj4qrokkgsw4ks@webmail.brainstorminternet.net>

The roads around P'rump are either: filled w/ LSR gamblers (those
folks don't dawdle); or filled with customers for the chicken ranch.

I'd trust a GPS more than NDOT to have accurate measurements. [1]

David in Durango

[1] our railroad here (D&SNGRR) has mile markers; all of which are .9
miles apart.  It seems when Otto Mears built the toll road (upon which
the RR was laid)he had a contract that paid by the mile. Do the math.
Not that NDOT shares any ethical challenges w/ Otto . . .



Quoting jgmagoo at comcast.net:

> Dmayf,
>
> Why not just tow it down a short stretch of 'long lonesome highway'
> out where you live. There are quite mile markers all along the
> route. Or if you want to get more accurate, go 5 or 10 miles to get
> an even better reading.
>
> Magoo
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Apr 24 18:05:35 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:05:35 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>
References: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <3FA3541D4DCE4491BC20B9564BAC05B4@DaveSatellite>

It is easy.. any reasonable auto dealer can check the calibration of you 
speedo tire shops I think as well and the cost minimal. another solution is 
to find a friend with a known calibrated gps. With the tire shop / dealer 
have them find the error in the tow truck or with the gps do a couple of 
quick experiments as to how far you go in one minute at 60 mph. After 
knowing the new corrected speed to go for 60 mph tow the car at 60 for 1 
minute.Get it up to 60 blow the horn at the end of 60 seconds blow the horn 
again I would have to assume the delay from horn to button push the same in 
both cases the farther you tow it the more accurate you get..You can do this 
anywhere and if you adjust time and speed you can do it on the way to the 
starting line.
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


> Comments from members of SCTA-BNI and USFRA Officials..
>
> No, not a bitch or a gripe at all, lol..
>
> When the driver's meeting is complete and we set off to drive the
> course(s), would it be possible to tow my car during that drive? I need
> to calibrate an instrument over a measured mile. Yeah, it is my gee whiz
> electonic speedometer... Calibration involves simply starting the cal at
> the biginning and stopping it at the end.
>
> I know this might need to be discussed by the officials, but, I am
> patient... answer can wait even until August for an answer if necessary...
>
>
> mayf

From neil at dbelltech.com  Thu Apr 24 18:09:35 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:09:35 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <3FA3541D4DCE4491BC20B9564BAC05B4@DaveSatellite>
References: <4810A6EC.80309@mayfco.com>
	<3FA3541D4DCE4491BC20B9564BAC05B4@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <02b201c8a668$a75fc460$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Mayf;

Maybe if you started with a really big ball of string......

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


> Comments from members of SCTA-BNI and USFRA Officials..
>
> No, not a bitch or a gripe at all, lol..
>
> When the driver's meeting is complete and we set off to drive the
> course(s), would it be possible to tow my car during that drive? I need
> to calibrate an instrument over a measured mile. Yeah, it is my gee whiz
> electonic speedometer... Calibration involves simply starting the cal at
> the biginning and stopping it at the end.
>
> I know this might need to be discussed by the officials, but, I am
> patient... answer can wait even until August for an answer if necessary...
>
>
> mayf
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as neil at dbelltech.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Fri Apr 25 13:02:34 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:02:34 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] The Speedometer Calibraton Question..
Message-ID: <48122ACA.4000101@mayfco.com>

Ya'll know that sometimes I ask things just to get someting started on 
the list. If you didn't know that, now ya do. But this one was a serious 
question. Ya'll remember when you were kids or when you kids played the 
pass it along game? You know, the one where you tell something to the 
first kid and the reapeat it to the next one and so on? Well, this 
question morphed into that game, lol... But new features were added in. 
Like a new kid arriving late and gettingto the middle of it without 
knowing what the game was or why. 

The manufacturer of the speedo said to install it. Ok, did that. Now 
find a measured mile. Haven't done that part yet because this is for my 
race car and I sure am not gonna drive those big expensive tires on the 
asphalt nor would I get very far anyway with the noise the car makes. 
The mfg then says, at the zero mark press the calibration button. Drive 
a  mile. Press the cal  button again. This automatically loads the 
number of pulses the entire system generates in a mile into the memory 
of the speedo. Then, when I drive the car it can calculate the speed. 
This whole idea was to tow the car down the course at the conclusion of 
the drivers meeting, stopping at the 0 mile mark or any of them actually 
and pressing the cal button. Then after a mile stop and press it again.  
That was and is the entire calibration sequence, lol.

I received responses from namless people who had me doing truly wondeful 
things. Using a GPs unit (hey if I had one of those, I wouldn't need the 
speedo, lol), to doing fast fourier transforms of the signals, to taking 
it to a dealer or speedo shop to so really off the  wall items... Them 
we wont address...

So if I cannot get permisson to tow the car druing the conclusion of the 
course exam after the driver's meeting, then I will hook up the tow 
truck. get lined up on the return road, press the trip meter reset in 
the truck, press the cal button in the car and tow it for one mile. then 
press the cal button again. All at 20 mph or less. Alternately, I can 
use the GPS laptop I have and let it tell me when one mile has been 
reached. All of these should get me clsoe enough for the speedo cool 
factor to cut in, lol...

So, I thank all who answered me on and off list, because some of the 
methods were a hoot! I will patiently await an official response for the 
BNI folk...


mayf

From gmc6power at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 25 13:25:18 2008
From: gmc6power at earthlink.net (James Tone)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:25:18 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Land-speed] The Speedometer Calibraton Question..
Message-ID: <1746737.1209151519066.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hey Maf Can you do the tow job behind your truck close to home? I wouldn't drive it either but since I use a tow bar at Bonneville for going to the line and returning  and you may too I think you could find somewhere near Pahrump to do it. The side markers are very accurate in my opinion.

If it were up to me I wouldn't even ask. I would tow my car down to the driver meeting leaving it parked behind everyone then after the meeting as many go back to the pits and others drive down the course I would pull up to the "0" marker, get out push the button drive to the "1" stop at the exact spot you did at the "0" push the button again and then tow back over to the return road returning to the pits. There will still be 100 trucks out on the course. If you stand around and shooting the s--t about it and take 4 hours wasting time no one will let you do anything. But if you do it and move on; to me it's no big deal. But if you feel the need to have it recorded for posterity and make a production out of it telling the world and anyone who will listen of course the answer would be no.  The whole thing would take less than 5 minutes unless National Geographic needs 3 retakes.....Good luck 


>So if I cannot get permisson to tow the car druing the conclusion of the 
>course exam after the driver's meeting, then I will hook up the tow 
>truck. get lined up on the return road, press the trip meter reset in 
>the truck, press the cal button in the car and tow it for one mile. then 
>press the cal button again. All at 20 mph or less. Alternately, I can 
>use the GPS laptop I have and let it tell me when one mile has been 
>reached. All of these should get me clsoe enough for the speedo cool 
>factor to cut in, lol...
>
>So, I thank all who answered me on and off list, because some of the 
>methods were a hoot! I will patiently await an official response for the 
>BNI folk...
>
>
>mayf
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as gmc6power at earthlink.net
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Apr 25 13:41:26 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:41:26 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] The Speedometer Calibraton Question..
In-Reply-To: <48122ACA.4000101@mayfco.com>
References: <48122ACA.4000101@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <AC561BD440004E7CB2F997ACF78F1D50@DaveSatellite>

Uh you listed mine as off the wall but never mentioned it was ok to 
stop..ok??
If you did it was not obvious at the time. You made it sound like you had to 
do it dynamically rather than at whatever pace you chose or at least that is 
the way it read to me..

Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 3:02 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] The Speedometer Calibraton Question..


> Ya'll know that sometimes I ask things just to get someting started on
> the list. If you didn't know that, now ya do. But this one was a serious
> question. Ya'll remember when you were kids or when you kids played the
> pass it along game? You know, the one where you tell something to the
> first kid and the reapeat it to the next one and so on? Well, this
> question morphed into that game, lol... But new features were added in.
> Like a new kid arriving late and gettingto the middle of it without
> knowing what the game was or why.
>
> The manufacturer of the speedo said to install it. Ok, did that. Now
> find a measured mile. Haven't done that part yet because this is for my
> race car and I sure am not gonna drive those big expensive tires on the
> asphalt nor would I get very far anyway with the noise the car makes.
> The mfg then says, at the zero mark press the calibration button. Drive
> a  mile. Press the cal  button again. This automatically loads the
> number of pulses the entire system generates in a mile into the memory
> of the speedo. Then, when I drive the car it can calculate the speed.
> This whole idea was to tow the car down the course at the conclusion of
> the drivers meeting, stopping at the 0 mile mark or any of them actually
> and pressing the cal button. Then after a mile stop and press it again.
> That was and is the entire calibration sequence, lol.
>
> I received responses from namless people who had me doing truly wondeful
> things. Using a GPs unit (hey if I had one of those, I wouldn't need the
> speedo, lol), to doing fast fourier transforms of the signals, to taking
> it to a dealer or speedo shop to so really off the  wall items... Them
> we wont address...
>
> So if I cannot get permisson to tow the car druing the conclusion of the
> course exam after the driver's meeting, then I will hook up the tow
> truck. get lined up on the return road, press the trip meter reset in
> the truck, press the cal button in the car and tow it for one mile. then
> press the cal button again. All at 20 mph or less. Alternately, I can
> use the GPS laptop I have and let it tell me when one mile has been
> reached. All of these should get me clsoe enough for the speedo cool
> factor to cut in, lol...
>
> So, I thank all who answered me on and off list, because some of the
> methods were a hoot! I will patiently await an official response for the
> BNI folk...
>
>
> mayf

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Fri Apr 25 14:06:54 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:06:54 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] The Speedometer Calibraton Question..
In-Reply-To: <1746737.1209151519066.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <1746737.1209151519066.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <481239DE.1090101@mayfco.com>

well, dang, JD you just told everybody that I might do that  and to be
on the lookout!  In fact I had already consiodered doing that for the
same reason Bryan mentioned, Easier to ask for forgiveness than
permission .But I am a law/rule abiding person..  No, I cannot nor won't
tow it on city streets. It is a) not street legal, b) those dang trires
are never gonna see asphalt (actually here is it chip seal).  And heck,
this is just for my fun anyway so they will either let me do it, or they
wont. If wont, I'll use the GPS locator to help me or the trucks trip
indicator. Truly is not a big deal, lol...

mayf
James Tone wrote:

>Hey Maf Can you do the tow job behind your truck close to home? I wouldn't
drive it either but since I use a tow bar at Bonneville for going to the line
and returning  and you may too I think you could find somewhere near Pahrump
to do it. The side markers are very accurate in my opinion.
>
>If it were up to me I wouldn't even ask. I would tow my car down to the
driver meeting leaving it parked behind everyone then after the meeting as
many go back to the pits and others drive down the course I would pull up to
the "0" marker, get out push the button drive to the "1" stop at the exact
spot you did at the "0" push the button again and then tow back over to the
return road returning to the pits. There will still be 100 trucks out on the
course. If you stand around and shooting the s--t about it and take 4 hours
wasting time no one will let you do anything. But if you do it and move on; to
me it's no big deal. But if you feel the need to have it recorded for
posterity and make a production out of it telling the world and anyone who
will listen of course the answer would be no.  The whole thing would take less
than 5 minutes unless National Geographic needs 3 retakes.....Good luck
>
>
>
>
>>So if I cannot get permisson to tow the car druing the conclusion of the
>>course exam after the driver's meeting, then I will hook up the tow
>>truck. get lined up on the return road, press the trip meter reset in
>>the truck, press the cal button in the car and tow it for one mile. then
>>press the cal button again. All at 20 mph or less. Alternately, I can
>>use the GPS laptop I have and let it tell me when one mile has been
>>reached. All of these should get me clsoe enough for the speedo cool
>>factor to cut in, lol...
>>
>>So, I thank all who answered me on and off list, because some of the
>>methods were a hoot! I will patiently await an official response for the
>>BNI folk...
>>
>>
>>mayf
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>Land-speed mailing list
>>
>>You are subscribed as gmc6power at earthlink.net
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltfever at comcast.net  Fri Apr 25 17:51:27 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:51:27 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
Message-ID: <000e01c8a72f$4840ffe0$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Why not do it on jack stands in your clean, cool garage? With the car on the
floor, measure from the centerline of the axel to the floor because of squat
or footprint. That radius should be slightly different (shorter) than the
top radius. Use the shorter radius to find circumference. Then divide by
5,280 or any subset of 1 mile by your result.  Chalk the tire and count the
turns. This method may be more accurate than towing since you might not
travel a straight line between the mile markers.  Since towing would be at a
slow speed, tire growth would not be a factor just as the method I
described.



14 inch squat radius x 2 pi = 87.96 in / 12 in = 7.33 ft. circumference.
5,280/7.33 = 720 turns which are too many to count. 1/4 mile (1320 ft) would
only be 180 wheel revolutions.  -Elon

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Fri Apr 25 18:18:54 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:18:54 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <000e01c8a72f$4840ffe0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
References: <000e01c8a72f$4840ffe0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <350943A3-991D-4CEE-86E1-AD02701B771A@nancyandjon.org>

On Apr 25, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Elon wrote:

Why not do it on jack stands in your clean, cool garage? With the car  
on the
floor, measure from the centerline of the axel to the floor because of  
squat
or footprint. That radius should be slightly different (shorter) than  
the
top radius. Use the shorter radius to find circumference. Then divide by
5,280 or any subset of 1 mile by your result.  Chalk the tire and  
count the
turns. This method may be more accurate than towing since you might not
travel a straight line between the mile markers.  Since towing would  
be at a
slow speed, tire growth would not be a factor just as the method I
described.



14 inch squat radius x 2 pi = 87.96 in / 12 in = 7.33 ft. circumference.
5,280/7.33 = 720 turns which are too many to count. 1/4 mile (1320 ft)  
would
only be 180 wheel revolutions.  -Elon


Elon:

About the circumference, derived by using pi and radius:  while the  
radius on the bottom half is smaller than that of the top, when loaded  
-- I don't understand how that would change the circumference.  That  
is, the distance all the way around the tire does not change -- all of  
the rubber must still roll down the road, even if the axle gets closer  
to the ground.

Maybe a test under controlled conditions, like you propose, would  
help.  One run with a loaded tire, one with a tire that's not mounted  
on a wheel.  If you can explain how the circumference does change --  
and prove me wrong -- I'd appreciate it.  Thanks in advance.


      Jon Wennerberg
Tall guy with moustache
and a pair of 2 Club hats

From saltfever at comcast.net  Fri Apr 25 20:20:57 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:20:57 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
Message-ID: <000001c8a744$2b1b18f0$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Hi Jon.  Think of the lower tire radius as a lever arm. It's the lever arm
(and its length) that does all the work to move the car forward. That length
of the arm also affects the overall gear ratio. And you know gear ratio is
directly coupled to revs per mile. Think of a top fuel car and the wheel
growth at speed. As the tires grows in height the lever arm increases in
length. You might say tire growth is an infinitely variable ratio. Maybe
this is a poor example, but how about a track-laying Caterpillar tractor?
The ratios and revs per distance is controlled by the diameter (or radius)
of the sprocket and not the length of the track. Your tires footprint
(squat) is a semi-type of track layer, no?  -Elon



while the radius on the bottom half is smaller than that of the top, when
loaded

-- I don't understand how that would change the circumference.  That

is, the distance all the way around the tire does not change -- all of

the rubber must still roll down the road, even if the axle gets closer

to the ground.

      Jon Wennerberg

Tall guy with moustache

and a pair of 2 Club hats

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Apr 25 23:18:29 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:18:29 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <000001c8a744$2b1b18f0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
References: <000001c8a744$2b1b18f0$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <CF3E0D1E3E5A4F068F47262A1D71F5D5@DaveSatellite>

The lever arm affects torque but not gear ratio the whole 'belt has to touch 
the ground before you can have another rev. If you think not tell me why. 
Get an old or new  lol fan belt and play with different shapes, round oval 
etc. and see what I mean. With a TF car the OD of the belt changes I doubt 
if that happens to a large degree with a LSR tire run at an appropriate 
pressure like 75 to 90 psi,

Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>
To: "land-speed submit" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:20 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


> Hi Jon.  Think of the lower tire radius as a lever arm. It's the lever arm
> (and its length) that does all the work to move the car forward. That 
> length
> of the arm also affects the overall gear ratio. And you know gear ratio is
> directly coupled to revs per mile. Think of a top fuel car and the wheel
> growth at speed. As the tires grows in height the lever arm increases in
> length. You might say tire growth is an infinitely variable ratio. Maybe
> this is a poor example, but how about a track-laying Caterpillar tractor?
> The ratios and revs per distance is controlled by the diameter (or radius)
> of the sprocket and not the length of the track. Your tires footprint
> (squat) is a semi-type of track layer, no?  -Elon
>
>
>
> while the radius on the bottom half is smaller than that of the top, when
> loaded
>
> -- I don't understand how that would change the circumference.  That
>
> is, the distance all the way around the tire does not change -- all of
>
> the rubber must still roll down the road, even if the axle gets closer
>
> to the ground.
>
>      Jon Wennerberg
>
> Tall guy with moustache
>
> and a pair of 2 Club hats
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed 

From saltfever at comcast.net  Sat Apr 26 01:48:07 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:48:07 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <CF3E0D1E3E5A4F068F47262A1D71F5D5@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <000001c8a771$dedce260$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Hi Dave:
I agree the length of the arm affects torque but me thinks it affects
distance traveled also. The two are interrelated. I was only using the top
Fuel tire to illustrate a point about squat or footprint. I also should have
said effective ratio and not gear ratio which is mechanically fixed.

The amount of belt squirming out in front and back (creating the contact
patch) is not adding to forward motion. For example you could have 12 inches
of foot print or 2 inches of footprint. They both eat up HP and
circumference but the shorter one gives more efficient forward travel. But
since we are talking about LSR tires with little or no squat I agree the
effect is negligible as well. Since I am moving I should not have started
this thread. Let's continue this at salt talks.  :-)    -Elon

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net]
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:18 PM
To: Elon; land-speed submit
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...

The lever arm affects torque but not gear ratio the whole 'belt has to touch

the ground before you can have another rev. If you think not tell me why.
Get an old or new  lol fan belt and play with different shapes, round oval
etc. and see what I mean. With a TF car the OD of the belt changes I doubt
if that happens to a large degree with a LSR tire run at an appropriate
pressure like 75 to 90 psi,

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>
To: "land-speed submit" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:20 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


> Hi Jon.  Think of the lower tire radius as a lever arm. It's the lever arm
> (and its length) that does all the work to move the car forward. That
> length
> of the arm also affects the overall gear ratio. And you know gear ratio is
> directly coupled to revs per mile. Think of a top fuel car and the wheel
> growth at speed. As the tires grows in height the lever arm increases in
> length. You might say tire growth is an infinitely variable ratio. Maybe
> this is a poor example, but how about a track-laying Caterpillar tractor?
> The ratios and revs per distance is controlled by the diameter (or radius)
> of the sprocket and not the length of the track. Your tires footprint
> (squat) is a semi-type of track layer, no?  -Elon
>
>
>
> while the radius on the bottom half is smaller than that of the top, when
> loaded
>
> -- I don't understand how that would change the circumference.  That
>
> is, the distance all the way around the tire does not change -- all of
>
> the rubber must still roll down the road, even if the axle gets closer
>
> to the ground.
>
>      Jon Wennerberg
>
> Tall guy with moustache
>
> and a pair of 2 Club hats
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as ddahlgren at snet.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Apr 26 03:46:58 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 05:46:58 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <000001c8a771$dedce260$6501a8c0@dim8100>
References: <000001c8a771$dedce260$6501a8c0@dim8100>
Message-ID: <DDF5E5BA125144ABAD2B04E14D9CD9CF@DaveSatellite>

I gave my though I passed along more than a few seconds on contemplation try 
the fan belt test.
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>
To: "'Dave Dahlgren'" <ddahlgren at snet.net>; "'land-speed submit'" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 3:48 AM
Subject: A Protocol Question...


Hi Dave:
I agree the length of the arm affects torque but me thinks it affects
distance traveled also. The two are interrelated. I was only using the top
Fuel tire to illustrate a point about squat or footprint. I also should have
said effective ratio and not gear ratio which is mechanically fixed.

The amount of belt squirming out in front and back (creating the contact
patch) is not adding to forward motion. For example you could have 12 inches
of foot print or 2 inches of footprint. They both eat up HP and
circumference but the shorter one gives more efficient forward travel. But
since we are talking about LSR tires with little or no squat I agree the
effect is negligible as well. Since I am moving I should not have started
this thread. Let's continue this at salt talks.  :-)    -Elon

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Apr 26 07:43:42 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:43:42 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] formula Holden ignition
In-Reply-To: <000f01c8a22c$0773a7e0$6501a8c0@Rick>
References: <5046376.1208382397165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><48069C4D.3000009@mayfco.com><01d801c8a026$a61f9c30$0200a8c0@DBTech><480776E4.000016.04984@D3DP98F1><6C5800EF35354F1984751F1FC9A6FFBA@DaveSatellite><4808FB55.4090502@wildblue.net>
	<CE08A7F9B0F64A51B348F8600EF916ED@DaveSatellite>
	<000f01c8a22c$0773a7e0$6501a8c0@Rick>
Message-ID: <26F364A7E0834381A10872A5B83C5662@DaveSatellite>

I have in the shop a Buick v-6 well a Holden to be more specific and for the 
life of me can not figure out what ignition module to buy for it. It has a 
dead magnavox type one on it now and want to use delco type module instead. 
It has a dual hall effect sensor on the crank with 2 trigger rings. one has 
18 teeth and the other 3. I even have a wiring diagram LOL but that has no 
module number either. It has no cam sensor also. I think my choices are in 
Standard Ignition part numbers either a LX348 or a LX 364 they look 
identical but do not know the trigger pattern they are expecting. Posibly 
both the same pattern for all I know. Calling Standard Ignition to as I 
think will be a waste of time I know calling Echlin was, kind of like 
teaching geometry to a dog, it looks interested but does not understand a 
word you are saying..LOL.. The local Buick Pontiac dealer was an equal waste 
of time as well. If anyone has any ideas at all I could really use some help 
here.
Dave 

From rgg14 at cox.net  Sat Apr 26 08:41:56 2008
From: rgg14 at cox.net (rgg14 at cox.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:41:56 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <DDF5E5BA125144ABAD2B04E14D9CD9CF@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>

Dave
OK, I'll bite. What is the fan belt test????
Ron

---- Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net> wrote:
I gave my though I passed along more than a few seconds on contemplation try
the fan belt test.
Dave

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Sat Apr 26 08:51:32 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:51:32 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>
References: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>
Message-ID: <71C6BA7E-A695-41CB-AE67-7BC0CF31E58D@nancyandjon.org>

On Apr 26, 2008, at 10:41 AM, <rgg14 at cox.net> wrote:

Dave
OK, I'll bite. What is the fan belt test????
Ron





Let me guess, let me guess:  The fan belt's length remains the same  
no matter how many folds or bends it goes through - no matter how  
many pulleys and sheaves it passes around -- thereby lending strength  
to my statement, a few posts back, that the circumference of a loaded  
tire is the same as that of a perfectly round (unloaded) tire.

How'd I do, Dave?

Jon Wennerberg

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Apr 26 09:16:53 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:16:53 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>
References: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>
Message-ID: <0FED522799DC4353A2BDEFB501B4D9A2@DaveSatellite>

It was a bit of an analogy.. Take a fan belt and put a mark on it. Then put it
on a bench on edge like it is a tire and put a mark on the bench that lines up
with the one on the belt.roll it one revolution and mark out how far it goes.
A typical roll out test like you use with a tire to check the circumference.
Now change the foot print that is contacting the bench and do another roll out
test.. Try to make the distance traveled in one revolution change..PS hope you
have a lot of time if you think it will change..
Dave
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: rgg14 at cox.net
  To: Dave Dahlgren ; Elon ; 'land-speed submit'
  Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


  Dave

  OK, I'll bite. What is the fan belt test????

  Ron


  ---- Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net> wrote:
  I gave my though I passed along more than a few seconds on contemplation
try
  the fan belt test.
  Dave

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Sat Apr 26 09:33:46 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:33:46 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <0FED522799DC4353A2BDEFB501B4D9A2@DaveSatellite>
References: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>
	<0FED522799DC4353A2BDEFB501B4D9A2@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <48134B5A.5000404@mayfco.com>

I lost track of what is trying to be proved here?  Rolling radius is 
real. That is the distance between the axle centerline and the road 
surface. That distance is what determines the tractive force at the 
surface.   A deflated tire will have to make more revolutions to go the 
same distance as one that is inflated. It is kinda like an orbit. Speeds 
and velocities change on the rim with radius to the orbit path.  Look at 
a tank's tread...many radii at all kinds of points on it.

What was being proved ot talked abotu here, lol..

mayf
Dave Dahlgren wrote:

>It was a bit of an analogy.. Take a fan belt and put a mark on it. Then put it
>on a bench on edge like it is a tire and put a mark on the bench that lines up
>with the one on the belt.roll it one revolution and mark out how far it goes.
>A typical roll out test like you use with a tire to check the circumference.
>Now change the foot print that is contacting the bench and do another roll out
>test.. Try to make the distance traveled in one revolution change..PS hope you
>have a lot of time if you think it will change..
>Dave
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: rgg14 at cox.net
>  To: Dave Dahlgren ; Elon ; 'land-speed submit'
>  Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:41 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
>
>
>  Dave
>
>  OK, I'll bite. What is the fan belt test????
>
>  Ron
>
>
>  ---- Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net> wrote:
>  I gave my though I passed along more than a few seconds on contemplation
>try
>  the fan belt test.
>  Dave
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Apr 26 09:41:58 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:41:58 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <48134B5A.5000404@mayfco.com>
References: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>
	<0FED522799DC4353A2BDEFB501B4D9A2@DaveSatellite>
	<48134B5A.5000404@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <F34E4902CC5148399D4C7F29EFB98840@DaveSatellite>

It started with measuring the loaded radius or unloaded to get the proper 
circumference..
My point is the whole tire has to go one rev and all of needs to touch the 
ground so loaded or unloaded makes no difference..
And yes tires can and do grow but at 200 to 300 starting with 90 psi I doubt 
very little..
My speed vs. rpm data suggests the goodyears grow very little due to rpm of 
the tire.
And the growth is not being covered by slip as both the fronts and rears are 
motored..
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>
Cc: <rgg14 at cox.net>; "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>; "'land-speed submit'" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


>I lost track of what is trying to be proved here?  Rolling radius is real. 
>That is the distance between the axle centerline and the road surface. That 
>distance is what determines the tractive force at the surface.   A deflated 
>tire will have to make more revolutions to go the same distance as one that 
>is inflated. It is kinda like an orbit. Speeds and velocities change on the 
>rim with radius to the orbit path.  Look at a tank's tread...many radii at 
>all kinds of points on it.
>
> What was being proved ot talked abotu here, lol..
>
> mayf
> Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>
>>It was a bit of an analogy.. Take a fan belt and put a mark on it. Then 
>>put it
>>on a bench on edge like it is a tire and put a mark on the bench that 
>>lines up
>>with the one on the belt.roll it one revolution and mark out how far it 
>>goes.
>>A typical roll out test like you use with a tire to check the 
>>circumference.
>>Now change the foot print that is contacting the bench and do another roll 
>>out
>>test.. Try to make the distance traveled in one revolution change..PS hope 
>>you
>>have a lot of time if you think it will change..
>>Dave
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: rgg14 at cox.net
>>  To: Dave Dahlgren ; Elon ; 'land-speed submit'
>>  Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:41 AM
>>  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
>>
>>
>>  Dave
>>
>>  OK, I'll bite. What is the fan belt test????

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sat Apr 26 21:01:25 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:01:25 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] The Speedometer Calibraton Question..
In-Reply-To: <1746737.1209151519066.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <1746737.1209151519066.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C91804ED00D54904AED219A846110918@LindaPC>

AHEM brother preach ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Tone" <gmc6power at earthlink.net>
To: <drmayf at mayfco.com>; "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] The Speedometer Calibraton Question..


> If it were up to me I wouldn't even ask. I would tow my car down to the 
> driver meeting leaving it parked behind everyone then after the meeting as 
> many go back to the pits and others drive down the course I would pull up 
> to the "0" marker, get out push the button drive to the "1" stop at the 
> exact spot you did at the "0" push the button again and then tow back over 
> to the return road returning to the pits. 

From kturk at ala.net  Sun Apr 27 05:15:19 2008
From: kturk at ala.net (Keith Turk)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:15:19 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...
Message-ID: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>

Well today is an interesting day... # 200 in my life as a non-smoker... been
an interesting and difficult ride... but here I am...

Been playing on scooters and with some other junk lately... CarjunkieTV.com
it's David's deal so I'm working it pretty hard trying to help out...

What's everyone got on tap for Bville this year?

Our plans are a bit up in the air right now...

K

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Sun Apr 27 07:15:02 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:15:02 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...Speedweek
Message-ID: <4F1CFFA0EA414F6082A19D16467B4FB5@LindaPC>

Congratulations KT---I have been off for 38+ years---still considered it one 
of my best accomplishments!!!!!!!!!! Working on getting the Lakester to run 
a straight as it can with a 190 WB---Scrub radius issuses hopefully address 
and a LOT stiffer frame.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:15 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...


> Well today is an interesting day... # 200 in my life as a non-smoker... 
> been
> an interesting and difficult ride... but here I am...
>
> Been playing on scooters and with some other junk lately... 
> CarjunkieTV.com
> it's David's deal so I'm working it pretty hard trying to help out...
>
> What's everyone got on tap for Bville this year?

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Sun Apr 27 08:03:32 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:03:32 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...
References: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <001e01c8a86f$7b3c1330$6501a8c0@Glens>

Keith
Keep it up, many of us went through the period of adjustment but it is worth 
it,
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 5:15 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...


> Well today is an interesting day... # 200 in my life as a non-smoker... 
> been
> an interesting and difficult ride... but here I am...
>
> Been playing on scooters and with some other junk lately... 
> CarjunkieTV.com
> it's David's deal so I'm working it pretty hard trying to help out...
>
> What's everyone got on tap for Bville this year?
>
> Our plans are a bit up in the air right now...
>
> K
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sun Apr 27 10:44:23 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:44:23 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <4814A5B4.1060502@wildblue.net>
References: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net>
	<0FED522799DC4353A2BDEFB501B4D9A2@DaveSatellite>
	<4814A5B4.1060502@wildblue.net>
Message-ID: <5C096C43530E48E09E8D86A6076AC275@DaveSatellite>

It has worked for me as well for a very long time as well..LOL
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bryan Savage" <basavage at wildblue.net>
To: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren at snet.net>
Cc: <rgg14 at cox.net>; "Elon" <saltfever at comcast.net>; "'land-speed submit'" 
<land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...


>
> All I know is on a circle track car, you put a tape around the
> circumference.
> Bryan

From jdincau at qnet.com  Sun Apr 27 10:52:55 2008
From: jdincau at qnet.com (Jim Dincau)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 09:52:55 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] A Protocol Question...
In-Reply-To: <5C096C43530E48E09E8D86A6076AC275@DaveSatellite>
References: <20080426104156.9B76G.23099.imail@eastrmwml01.mgt.cox.net><0FED522799DC4353A2BDEFB501B4D9A2@DaveSatellite><4814A5B4.1060502@wildblue.net>
	<5C096C43530E48E09E8D86A6076AC275@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <F436E7FDCB2F4C8CB51E3E0A25F3B3B0@denpc>

On every race car on earth.
Jim
>
>>
>> All I know is on a circle track car, you put a tape around the
>> circumference.
>> Bryan

From neil at dbelltech.com  Sun Apr 27 11:21:48 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:21:48 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...
In-Reply-To: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
References: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <002701c8a88b$316e1e80$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Good for you, Keith-- keep up the good work. You'll be glad you quit. I did
30 years ago by switching from cigarettes to little "Between the Acts"
cigars (which you don't inhale) and then eventually I quit altogether. It
was worth it!

It looks like I'll just be a spectator again this year. There's no way my
car (B/GMS) can be ready by SpeedWeek this year. I'm cutting & welding on
the chassis to move the front bulkhead forward to get more legroom and also
adding a different front suspension. I still need to build the roll cage
(with rule book in hand!) and add the new rear suspension and transaxle
support. This will require major cutting & welding on the rear of the
chassis too. Fun stuff but it all takes time.

I hope to see you (all) there in August.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ



-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Keith Turk
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:15 AM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...

Well today is an interesting day... # 200 in my life as a non-smoker... been
an interesting and difficult ride... but here I am...

Been playing on scooters and with some other junk lately... CarjunkieTV.com
it's David's deal so I'm working it pretty hard trying to help out...

What's everyone got on tap for Bville this year?

Our plans are a bit up in the air right now...

K
_______________________________________________

From ifixmgs at cox.net  Sun Apr 27 12:22:34 2008
From: ifixmgs at cox.net (ifixmgs at cox.net)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:22:34 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...
Message-ID: <20080427142234.30WGO.39677.imail@eastrmwml24.mgt.cox.net>

Keith,
   Congrats, and give yourself a hell of a pat on the back. Half the folks I know quit a dozen times a day, and most who get serious don't last 200 minutes much less 200 hours or 200 days.   Six months plus is a big accomplishment and  by now  you're  not even thingking of backslidin' .  If you do, just  light up the welder, and while stitching a couple pieces of galvanized steel together, suck in all the fumes you can  as a reminder of how good smoking made you feel...  

   My wife asked me to quit while I was at the end of my navy career during gulf war 1 (while removing and disposing of live mines from the Kuwait  side of Buyiban....)   I  told her I'd already quit  -  and the one I had just put out during our batphone conversation was truly my very last  so as not to have actually  lied to her...    haven't smoked since.   But I do occassionally  dream that I've backslid, and can actually smell and taste the smoke.  

 No plans for BVille this year, but I did win a hotrodders hat trick:  My company is footing the bill for me to attend the  SEMA and NACE expos first week in November in Vegas.    I took 3 days vacation  for the NHRA AC Delco nats.  To top it off, my wife bought me the 4 day  Platinum/Hospitality pass package for an early/only  Christmas present.   









---- Keith Turk <kturk at ala.net> wrote: 
> Well today is an interesting day... # 200 in my life as a non-smoker... been
> an interesting and difficult ride... but here I am...
> 
> Been playing on scooters and with some other junk lately... CarjunkieTV.com
> it's David's deal so I'm working it pretty hard trying to help out...
> 
> What's everyone got on tap for Bville this year?
> 
> Our plans are a bit up in the air right now...
> 
> K
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Land-speed mailing list
> 
> You are subscribed as ifixmgs at cox.net
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltfevr at q.com  Sun Apr 27 21:20:46 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:20:46 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...
In-Reply-To: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
References: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <BAY122-W54EFCA86A3FE4E47D75C61C9DE0@phx.gbl>

KT;

Congrats, keep it going. Enjoyed seeing you make churro's down Baja way. Also
Daves F Mini Moto videos are cool. Even spotted the "girly camaro" in their
garage background. Greetings to Tawn.Tom ShannonMagna, Utah> From:
kturk at ala.net> To: land-speed at autox.team.net> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 06:15:19
-0500> Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...> > Well today is an interesting
day... # 200 in my life as a non-smoker... been> an interesting and difficult
ride... but here I am...> > Been playing on scooters and with some other junk
lately... CarjunkieTV.com> it's David's deal so I'm working it pretty hard
trying to help out...> > What's everyone got on tap for Bville this year?> >
Our plans are a bit up in the air right now...> > K>
_______________________________________________> Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Land-speed mailing list> > You are
subscribed as saltfevr at q.com> >
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From karhu at california.com  Mon Apr 28 10:33:04 2008
From: karhu at california.com (Benn)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:33:04 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] cutting/grinding tools?
Message-ID: <000601c8a94d$887082f0$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>

Hi gang,
I'm looking for advice on inline and right-angle cutters for cutting through
auto bodies for cage work.  I  can't fit my Hole Hawg in some places, so am
looking for something small (both blade diameter and head size) to fit into
those tighter areas, but with enough umph to cut openings with reasonable
speed.  I would suppose the pros use airgrinders, but I found some years ago
that high-cfm tools won't really run on my couple-horsepower compressor (or
else i got a bad tool).  (I also found that airtools' cfm ratings are at 25%
duty cycle).  So, yeah, I could just get a bigger compressor, but there goes
another $500-1000 even for a used one, plus the need to carve out some garage
space for it, accommodate its likely 3-phase power requirement, etc.
Therefore I'm thinking electrically driven.  What're yer thoughts?
Benn

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Apr 28 10:48:11 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:48:11 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
Message-ID: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com>

Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I 
thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the list..

The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at 
some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so 
I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders 
filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time, 
then torque should keep going up.

Comments?

Thoughts?

Damnations?

Blasphemy?

Theories?

Conjecture?

Oh, and the question last week regarding use of the course during a 
drivers course inspection... well, see rule 1.L    second paragraph. Not 
allowed without permission. Under contestant conduct...

mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Mon Apr 28 10:54:31 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:54:31 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c8a950$8837df60$6501a8c0@Glens>

Sure glad you found that in the rule book, now I can unload my timing stand 
gattling gun. Dave Dahlgren should be on shortly with your torque answer. 
Maybe even in English. LOL. Have a good day Mayf and tell the gang at the 
Cat house, oop's I meant coffee shop hello.
Glen in sunny St.George
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:48 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I
> thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the 
> list..
>
> The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at
> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
> then torque should keep going up.
>
> Comments?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Damnations?
>
> Blasphemy?
>
> Theories?
>
> Conjecture?
>
> Oh, and the question last week regarding use of the course during a
> drivers course inspection... well, see rule 1.L    second paragraph. Not
> allowed without permission. Under contestant conduct...
>
> mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Mon Apr 28 11:00:36 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:00:36 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com>
References: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <AB4BEAB1EC6E438DA50DD9E6F2E2E73A@DaveSatellite>

volumetric efficiency is inverse to rpm after peak torque.
most engines make peak hp 15% higher in rpm that peak torque.
Look at some typical ve curves and it becomes self explanatory
hp=(torque/5252)
auto shop 101
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:48 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I
> thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the 
> list..
>
> The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at
> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
> then torque should keep going up.
>
> Comments?

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Mon Apr 28 11:37:34 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:37:34 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <AB4BEAB1EC6E438DA50DD9E6F2E2E73A@DaveSatellite>
References: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com>
	<AB4BEAB1EC6E438DA50DD9E6F2E2E73A@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <48160B5E.804@mayfco.com>

Awwww Dave, you didn't answer the question.  I know what the formula for 
HP is. The question is why does the torque fall off. What is the 
engineering reason for it. Why /does /VE fall off? I've looked at a lot 
of dyno curves...

mayf
Dave Dahlgren wrote:

> volumetric efficiency is inverse to rpm after peak torque.
> most engines make peak hp 15% higher in rpm that peak torque.
> Look at some typical ve curves and it becomes self explanatory
> hp=(torque/5252)
> auto shop 101
> Dave
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
> To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:48 PM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
>
>
>> Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I
>> thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the 
>> list..
>>
>> The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at
>> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
>> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
>> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
>> then torque should keep going up.
>>
>> Comments?

From john.szalay at att.net  Mon Apr 28 12:46:30 2008
From: john.szalay at att.net (John Szalay)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:46:30 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...  B,Ville
References: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
Message-ID: <A41A678EF82A423D9A99A308F8757DAD@531W>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk at ala.net>

> Well today is an interesting day... # 200 in my life as a non-smoker... 
> been
> an interesting and difficult ride... but here I am...
>
> Been playing on scooters and with some other junk lately... 
> CarjunkieTV.com
> it's David's deal so I'm working it pretty hard trying to help out...
>
> What's everyone got on tap for Bville this year?
>
> Our plans are a bit up in the air right now...
>
> K
>

KT
 Congrats on the 200 days.

We didn't get to run our motorhome as planned, but these guys managed to
run one just like it.  at USFRA  150 MPH club course..

106.338 MPH in a 13,000lb  RV    :-)

something to shoot for .

   http://www.dynosources.com

From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Mon Apr 28 13:28:27 2008
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:28:27 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
Message-ID: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john>

We know that at minimum the resistance to port flow goes up at the square of
port velocity . How turbulent does air/fuel become in a port at 300 f/s . 
Maybe
that's why HP peaks when it does . Has anybody tried vortex generators in
intake ports ?
John


> Why does the torque of an engine peak at
> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
> then torque should keep going up.

From adin at frontier.net  Mon Apr 28 13:28:51 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:28:51 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...  B,Ville
References: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<A41A678EF82A423D9A99A308F8757DAD@531W>
Message-ID: <001a01c8a966$16e2cda0$6501a8c0@ZTxp>

> We didn't get to run our motorhome as planned, but these guys managed to
> run one just like it.  at USFRA  150 MPH club course..
>
> 106.338 MPH in a 13,000lb  RV    :-)
>
> something to shoot for .
>
>   http://www.dynosources.com

That big wing is sure sexy . . . wonder how much faster that thing would go 
without all that drag?

David, needs  a wing on the house . . . . 

From saltfever at comcast.net  Mon Apr 28 13:45:00 2008
From: saltfever at comcast.net (Elon)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:45:00 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Torque Theoretical Question...
Message-ID: <000501c8a968$59b3d5f0$6501a8c0@dim8100>

Yep, it is strictly VE. Fluid dynamics is complex as you know. But
reversion, the timing of acoustical wave propagation, poppet valve flow
characteristics, and cam overlap all influence the point of maximum cylinder
filling. There is an optimum port velocity affected by all of the above.
However, you will hear numbers ranging from 190 ft/sec up to 650 ft/sec in
magazine articles and blogs. Seeing such a wide range of numbers is more
than suspect! I think the Auto Union Grand Prix had a design port velocity
of about 190-220 ft/sec. It is not all about maximum port velocity or flow
since you have suspended fuel molecules that have to turn corners. The
subject is so complex that Heywood devoted an entire chapter to it. The math
goes beyond me but it is an excellent body of work.  Internal Combustion
Engine Fundamentals, John B. Heywood, Chapter 8.   -Elon



From: drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com>

Why does the torque of an engine peak at

some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so

I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders

filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,

then torque should keep going up.

From john.szalay at att.net  Mon Apr 28 14:04:12 2008
From: john.szalay at att.net (John Szalay)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:04:12 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...  B,Ville
References: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p>
	<A41A678EF82A423D9A99A308F8757DAD@531W>
	<001a01c8a966$16e2cda0$6501a8c0@ZTxp>
Message-ID: <DF25B298E222455BA56EF45931DA39AC@531W>

> That big wing is sure sexy . . . wonder how much faster that thing would 
> go without all that drag?
>
> David, needs  a wing on the house . . . .
>

 Got to remember that the GMC coach is front-wheel drive
and there is very little weight in the rear, and they are known for
a little "road wobble"  because of the airbag  boogie design.. so
some down-force is almost a must.. 

From neil at dbelltech.com  Mon Apr 28 14:35:19 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:35:19 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] cutting/grinding tools?
In-Reply-To: <000601c8a94d$887082f0$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
References: <000601c8a94d$887082f0$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
Message-ID: <007e01c8a96f$61db38c0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Benn;

I have a Dewalt angle grinder that I use with an abrasive cutoff wheel
sometimes; it won't do anything but straight lines, of course. I also have a
Ryobi reciprocating saw with bi-metal blades that does a great job on sheet
metal.

I've found these far better than air grinders. I haven't tried a nibbler yet
but it looks promising for cutting odd shaped holes.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ



-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
Benn
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:33 AM
To: land-speed at autox.team.net
Subject: [Land-speed] cutting/grinding tools?

Hi gang,
I'm looking for advice on inline and right-angle cutters for cutting through
auto bodies for cage work.  I  can't fit my Hole Hawg in some places, so am
looking for something small (both blade diameter and head size) to fit into
those tighter areas, but with enough umph to cut openings with reasonable
speed.  I would suppose the pros use airgrinders, but I found some years ago
that high-cfm tools won't really run on my couple-horsepower compressor (or
else i got a bad tool).  (I also found that airtools' cfm ratings are at 25%
duty cycle).  So, yeah, I could just get a bigger compressor, but there goes
another $500-1000 even for a used one, plus the need to carve out some
garage
space for it, accommodate its likely 3-phase power requirement, etc.
Therefore I'm thinking electrically driven.  What're yer thoughts?
Benn

From neil at dbelltech.com  Mon Apr 28 14:37:30 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:37:30 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com>
References: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c8a96f$b0117fe0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

Mayf;

My guess is that volumetric efficiency falls off as RPM rises; the cylinders
just don't get filled with fuel/air.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
drmayf
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:48 AM
To: LSR
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...

Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I 
thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the list..

The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at 
some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so 
I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders 
filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time, 
then torque should keep going up.

Comments?

Thoughts?

Damnations?

Blasphemy?

Theories?

Conjecture?

Oh, and the question last week regarding use of the course during a 
drivers course inspection... well, see rule 1.L    second paragraph. Not 
allowed without permission. Under contestant conduct...

mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Mon Apr 28 14:54:54 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:54:54 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john>
Message-ID: <005901c8a972$1c461520$2101a8c0@WinXP>

What would a vortex generator accomplish?
Might just take energy out of the flow and have a negative effect on VE.

There is always acoustic tuning (of the combined port and stack length) to 
provide a pressure pulse peak at the back side of the intake valve at the 
moment it opens.  But, if I remember some of the math correctly, the optimum 
acoustically tuned length decreases as frequency (RPM) increases, so at very 
high RPM just the port length alone may be too long for acoustic tuning.

Wonder what the 18,000 RPM F1 engine designers do about this ?  Probably use 
very expensive Computational Fluid Dynamics analysis tools.

Lance

---------------------------------------------


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Burk" <joyseydevil at comcast.net>
To: "LandSpeed List" <Land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> We know that at minimum the resistance to port flow goes up at the square 
> of
> port velocity . How turbulent does air/fuel become in a port at 300 f/s .
> Maybe
> that's why HP peaks when it does . Has anybody tried vortex generators in
> intake ports ?
> John
>
>
>> Why does the torque of an engine peak at
>> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
>> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
>> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
>> then torque should keep going up.

From adin at frontier.net  Mon Apr 28 14:51:19 2008
From: adin at frontier.net (David in Durango)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:51:19 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Got quit...  B,Ville
References: <01d801c8a857$fa6f7a10$6500a8c0@keithhrijwmm4p><A41A678EF82A423D9A99A308F8757DAD@531W><001a01c8a966$16e2cda0$6501a8c0@ZTxp>
	<DF25B298E222455BA56EF45931DA39AC@531W>
Message-ID: <003e01c8a971$9c8157a0$6501a8c0@ZTxp>

I admit, it "could" be there for a reason.

Seems like that veehickle has enough aero drag as it sits.

"Road wobble" - can that be fixed by another means?  Sway bars or something?

David, can't go 200 milliseconds without a snack . . .
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Szalay" <john.szalay at att.net>
To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Got quit... B,Ville


>> That big wing is sure sexy . . . wonder how much faster that thing would
>> go without all that drag?
>>
>> David, needs  a wing on the house . . . .
>>
>
> Got to remember that the GMC coach is front-wheel drive
> and there is very little weight in the rear, and they are known for
> a little "road wobble"  because of the airbag  boogie design.. so
> some down-force is almost a must..
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as adin at frontier.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Mon Apr 28 16:15:11 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:15:11 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw:  cutting/grinding tools?
Message-ID: <003701c8a97d$55d1ad30$6501a8c0@S>

FWD to list with edits
EW
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: "Benn" <karhu at california.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] cutting/grinding tools?


> Benn -- I don't know how much cobbling up you're willing to do, but here's
> some thoughts in that particular direction:
> I have this $20 Horror Fright 4-1/2" angle grinder.  Looking at it I see a
> fairly compact angle head with a stubby maybe 5/8" long 5/8" coarse thread
> spindle.  There's a steel spanner nut with a flange 1-5/8" dia x 1/4"
thick.
> In the nut flange there are 4 - 5mm holes on a 30mm circle.  Now I go look
> at an ordinary 1/2" jacobs chuck with a JT33 taper and note that it's
close
> to 5/8" dia at the near end of the hole and that the flat back of the
chuck
> body cuts pretty easily with a file.
> Now this thing works pretty well; so I'm not anxious to take it apart
before
> the 12000 rpm brush motor starts smoking. (even if that happens soon the
> thing will have paid for itself).  But I'm willing to bet that inside
where
> those 4 little phillips screws hold it together I'll find a male spline
end
> on the motor shaft and a female spline socket in either a stub shaft or
the
> extended hub of a gear.
> The next thought is that heavy duty flexible shafts are pretty readily
> available to allow you to get the bulky motor away from the work area.
> Then you'll want to look at ways to get whatever remote motor have to
speed
> down and maybe make it variable.  Lots of possibilities come to mind here
> since that part can sit on a little roll-around thingie or a base with a
> good carrying handle.  How about the head off a cheap drill press?  Or
maybe
> your shop 1/2" hand drill with a setup to strap it down and a gadget to
hold
> the speed setting on the trigger or a separate variable speed controller.
A
> small 12 volt starter mounted to a variable speed cone pulley setup. (nice
> and compact)  Put a 12 volt battery and your quick charger out of the way
> somewhere away from sparks and use your welding cables to make the
> electrical hookup.
> Ed Weldon
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Benn" <karhu at california.com>
> To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:33 AM
> Subject: [Land-speed] cutting/grinding tools?

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Apr 28 16:49:37 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:49:37 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] calibration
Message-ID: <53E8617B24904C2491251F15C417DB89@LindaPC>

If  what you guys say --- its always about circumfrence---how can wheel speed
sensors tell which tire is low which?

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Apr 28 16:57:52 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:57:52 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john>
References: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john>
Message-ID: <5C8FA963DBD944188AD3A7FEDBDCD7ED@LindaPC>

yes I have seen them in some drag engs and the STOCK gm engs
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Burk" <joyseydevil at comcast.net>
To: "LandSpeed List" <Land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> We know that at minimum the resistance to port flow goes up at the square 
> of
> port velocity . How turbulent does air/fuel become in a port at 300 f/s .
> Maybe
> that's why HP peaks when it does . Has anybody tried vortex generators in
> intake ports ?
> John

From sparky.2211 at cox.net  Mon Apr 28 17:03:42 2008
From: sparky.2211 at cox.net (Sparky)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:03:42 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <48160B5E.804@mayfco.com>
References: <4815FFCB.3070100@mayfco.com><AB4BEAB1EC6E438DA50DD9E6F2E2E73A@DaveSatellite>
	<48160B5E.804@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <7F1E85B805E24554BD956230C0A8F3C0@LindaPC>

HEAD FLOW
----- Original Message ----- 

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Mon Apr 28 17:34:46 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:34:46 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw:  cutting/grinding tools?
References: <003701c8a97d$55d1ad30$6501a8c0@S>
	<002e01c8a97e$eb3e20f0$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <005001c8a988$78d54bb0$6501a8c0@S>

Glen, et. al. -- 
I have a set of 4 Greenlee punches in my shop that I found a few years back
at a swap meet.  For the amount of use I've put them to I don't think I'd
pay retail price.  But they occasionally get used where a hole saw won't get
in.  Kind of a physical workout if you're trying to go through thicker steel
than 20 gauge.  You need access from both sides and a way to drill the pilot
hole.  If you're wrenching them you need about 3" clearance for 1-1-1/2" dia
holes on one side for an open end wrench and an extra two inches for a
ratchet and socket.
BTW the key to using a hole saw is to run it slow enough that you don't
overheat the steel cutting teeth.  I wouldn't use anything but bimetal on
steel and use some kind of cutting oil whenever I can.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glen Barrett" <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fw: cutting/grinding tools?


> OK Ed, how's this for an idea. Depending the hole diameter Greenlee hole
> punches used by electricians should do the job as they can be used with a
> wrench to turn the cutting die. They only need a couple of inches to make
a
> very clean round hole in sheet metal, almost any size is available. I just
> did a Google search and you can find them there.
> glen
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
> To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:15 PM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: cutting/grinding tools?

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Mon Apr 28 17:41:46 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:41:46 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Fw:  cutting/grinding tools?
References: <003701c8a97d$55d1ad30$6501a8c0@S>
	<002e01c8a97e$eb3e20f0$6501a8c0@Glens>
	<005001c8a988$78d54bb0$6501a8c0@S>
Message-ID: <008501c8a989$6c5591a0$6501a8c0@Glens>

Ed
I have aircraft hole saws up to 3" dia. They are very expensive and I never 
loan them Costs about $25.00 each to have them sharpened. Have different 
size mandrills for them as well but good cutting fluid is critical.
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
To: "Glen Barrett" <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fw: cutting/grinding tools?


> Glen, et. al. -- 
> I have a set of 4 Greenlee punches in my shop that I found a few years 
> back
> at a swap meet.  For the amount of use I've put them to I don't think I'd
> pay retail price.  But they occasionally get used where a hole saw won't 
> get
> in.  Kind of a physical workout if you're trying to go through thicker 
> steel
> than 20 gauge.  You need access from both sides and a way to drill the 
> pilot
> hole.  If you're wrenching them you need about 3" clearance for 1-1-1/2" 
> dia
> holes on one side for an open end wrench and an extra two inches for a
> ratchet and socket.
> BTW the key to using a hole saw is to run it slow enough that you don't
> overheat the steel cutting teeth.  I wouldn't use anything but bimetal on
> steel and use some kind of cutting oil whenever I can.
> Ed Weldon
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Glen Barrett" <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
> To: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>; <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Fw: cutting/grinding tools?
>
>
>> OK Ed, how's this for an idea. Depending the hole diameter Greenlee hole
>> punches used by electricians should do the job as they can be used with a
>> wrench to turn the cutting die. They only need a couple of inches to make
> a
>> very clean round hole in sheet metal, almost any size is available. I 
>> just
>> did a Google search and you can find them there.
>> glen
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon at comcast.net>
>> To: <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:15 PM
>> Subject: [Land-speed] Fw: cutting/grinding tools?

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 18:30:16 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Engine Torque Theoretical Question...
Message-ID: <823709.67722.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'd say you answered your own question.  If you could keep the cylinders filled, then yes the torque should stay constant (not going up).

But...  at some point you aren't going to be able to completely fill the cylinders, and the torque will start dropping off.

Mike Lackey

----- Original Message ----
From: drmayf <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: LSR <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:48:11 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...

Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I 
thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the list..

The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at 
some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so 
I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders 
filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time, 
then torque should keep going up.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

From jon.the.wise at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 21:16:21 2008
From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jonathan)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:16:21 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Fwd:  cutting/grinding tools?
In-Reply-To: <5f048ef70804282016r7ac8e361sa0d96767ec7dd168@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601c8a94d$887082f0$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
	<5f048ef70804282016r7ac8e361sa0d96767ec7dd168@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5f048ef70804282016n524e0006j9393a7a1a61f72d7@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarding to list.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jonathan <jon.the.wise at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] cutting/grinding tools?
To: Benn <karhu at california.com>


To make my low hp compressor handle the air tools better, I simply hoooked
it to a bigger tank. I have a 6 gallon compressor tank with a 2 horse
compressor motor. When I need to use high speed tools, I hook it up to a 300
gallon tank (it has a big 2-stage compressor, but there's no motor, one day
we'll get around to fixing that) we have, and turn it on. Takes a while to
fill up, but once it's done, I've got about 15-20 minutes of grinding (with
the compressor doing it's best to refill) before I run out of volume again.
Might not be the best option, but if you can find a good size air tank
cheap...

~Jon


On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Benn <karhu at california.com> wrote:

I would suppose the pros use airgrinders, but I found some years ago
> that high-cfm tools won't really run on my couple-horsepower compressor
> (or
> else i got a bad tool).  (I also found that airtools' cfm ratings are at
> 25%
> duty cycle).
>





-- 
~Jon

From jon.the.wise at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 21:20:44 2008
From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jonathan)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:20:44 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <005901c8a972$1c461520$2101a8c0@WinXP>
References: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john>
	<005901c8a972$1c461520$2101a8c0@WinXP>
Message-ID: <5f048ef70804282020p43793a2ey744005ed83d71ec@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:54 PM, joseph lance <jolylance at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> What would a vortex generator accomplish?
> Might just take energy out of the flow and have a negative effect on VE.
>
> There is always acoustic tuning (of the combined port and stack length) to
> provide a pressure pulse peak at the back side of the intake valve at the
> moment it opens.  But, if I remember some of the math correctly, the
> optimum
> acoustically tuned length decreases as frequency (RPM) increases, so at
> very
> high RPM just the port length alone may be too long for acoustic tuning.


Interestingly enough, mitsubishi has an intake manifold specifically
designed for this purpose. It has 2 sets of intake runners, and at low RPM
it uses a longer runner to increase velocity, and as the flow increases, the
switch is made to the shorter runners. As far as I know it was only ever put
on cars in Japan.


> Wonder what the 18,000 RPM F1 engine designers do about this ?  Probably
> use
> very expensive Computational Fluid Dynamics analysis tools.
>

Very fancy intakes.


~Jon

From jon.the.wise at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 21:21:51 2008
From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jonathan)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:21:51 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <5C8FA963DBD944188AD3A7FEDBDCD7ED@LindaPC>
References: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john>
	<5C8FA963DBD944188AD3A7FEDBDCD7ED@LindaPC>
Message-ID: <5f048ef70804282021r597cb450q36cf1cf823f05381@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Sparky <sparky.2211 at cox.net> wrote:

> yes I have seen them in some drag engs and the STOCK gm engs
>

Like all the Vortec motors?

-- 
~Jon

From Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Apr 29 06:42:44 2008
From: Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com (MEIERLE Mike)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:42:44 -0500
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <5f048ef70804282020p43793a2ey744005ed83d71ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john><005901c8a972$1c461520$2101a8c0@WinXP>
	<5f048ef70804282020p43793a2ey744005ed83d71ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A727C8A@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>

 Ford did the same thing to the 4.6 Motor in My Lincoln Mark VIII, you
can really feel the difference when the engine switches from the long
runners to the short runners. And they did that design back in 1993.....

Mike Meierle
#847 F/P/MP
SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
ECTA Record Holder



Interestingly enough, mitsubishi has an intake manifold specifically
designed for this purpose. It has 2 sets of intake runners, and at low
RPM it uses a longer runner to increase velocity, and as the flow
increases, the switch is made to the shorter runners. As far as I know
it was only ever put on cars in Japan.

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Apr 29 08:59:02 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:59:02 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic - NON LSR  1963 Ford Tbird $$ Question
Message-ID: <481737B6.2070708@mayfco.com>

The wife's neice and hubby have a friend who is sellig her 1963 Tbird. 
Has a 390 CID 4 bbl carb, typical Tbird. A couple of as they described 
them, small rust spots..

Anybody have a clue as to what this car in sorta ok condition might be 
worth? They say she wants $1500 for it. They want to buy it oif it 
sounds ok..

mayf

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Apr 29 09:10:51 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:10:51 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic - NON LSR  1963 Ford Tbird $$  Question
References: <481737B6.2070708@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c8aa0b$38a10ce0$6501a8c0@Glens>

Google the KELLY BLUE BOOK>
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:59 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic - NON LSR 1963 Ford Tbird $$ Question


> The wife's neice and hubby have a friend who is sellig her 1963 Tbird. 
> Has a 390 CID 4 bbl carb, typical Tbird. A couple of as they described 
> them, small rust spots..
> 
> Anybody have a clue as to what this car in sorta ok condition might be 
> worth? They say she wants $1500 for it. They want to buy it oif it 
> sounds ok..
> 
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Land-speed mailing list
> 
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
> 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From Want1937hd at aol.com  Tue Apr 29 09:42:13 2008
From: Want1937hd at aol.com (Want1937hd at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:42:13 EDT
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic - NON LSR  1963 Ford Tbird $$  Question
Message-ID: <c0a.346407e3.35489bd5@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/08 10:59:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
drmayf at mayfco.com writes:

Anybody have a clue as to what this car in sorta ok condition might be 
worth? They say she wants $1500 for it. They want to buy it oif it 
sounds ok..

BUY IT! Even if it is a coupe not the convertible that sounds like a deal on 
just a parts car. Bob in connecticut



**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Apr 29 12:18:42 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:18:42 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic - NON LSR  1963 Ford Tbird $$  Question
In-Reply-To: <481737B6.2070708@mayfco.com>
References: <481737B6.2070708@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <48176682.2000201@mayfco.com>

k, I got enough info from you all to tell them to make a deal.

Thanks,

mayf
drmayf wrote:

>The wife's neice and hubby have a friend who is sellig her 1963 Tbird. 
>Has a 390 CID 4 bbl carb, typical Tbird. A couple of as they described 
>them, small rust spots..
>
>Anybody have a clue as to what this car in sorta ok condition might be 
>worth? They say she wants $1500 for it. They want to buy it oif it 
>sounds ok..
>
>mayf
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Apr 29 12:50:05 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:50:05 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed]  Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
Message-ID: <48176DDD.3060806@mayfco.com>

Well, shoot. This did not generate as much discussion as I hoped it 
would. It is definitely not a subject I am familiar with so was looking 
forward to lots of interesting reasons why internal combustion engines 
are not able to generate more torque past their peak torque rpm and why 
that happens. Several thoughts were that VE was the limit but it is 
unclear, at least to me, why that might be so. It is funny that if you 
add a super charge to increas the charge air density then you can get 
increaed VE but the torque still drops off anyway. I'll have to 
look...maybe it doesn't drop off as much though. I did like the 'suppose 
we add vortex generators in the port', that was to me thinking outside 
the box.

In any case, as a discussion topic, this one rated a C- from me, lol...

mayf
***********************************************************************
Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I
thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the list..

The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at
some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
then torque should keep going up.

Comments?

Thoughts?

Damnations?

Blasphemy?

Theories?

Conjecture?

Oh, and the question last week regarding use of the course during a
drivers course inspection... well, see rule 1.L    second paragraph. Not
allowed without permission. Under contestant conduct...

mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 29 13:25:40 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:25:40 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <000501c8a966$0a6293d0$466a2544@john><005901c8a972$1c461520$2101a8c0@WinXP><5f048ef70804282020p43793a2ey744005ed83d71ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C6E77E36A1EAD4BAD7F02E98294BDB20A727C8A@USDALSMBS01.ad3.ad.alcatel.com>
Message-ID: <000701c8aa2e$d90bdcf0$2101a8c0@WinXP>

Thanks for the reminder Mike--my first wife had a Mark VIII with the 4.6L 
DOHC engine. It seemed to rev a lot smoother and had higher HP per cubic 
inch than my 93 Corvette 5.7L

Lance

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MEIERLE Mike" <Mike.Meierle at alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "LandSpeed List" <Land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> Ford did the same thing to the 4.6 Motor in My Lincoln Mark VIII, you
> can really feel the difference when the engine switches from the long
> runners to the short runners. And they did that design back in 1993.....
>
> Mike Meierle
> #847 F/P/MP
> SCTA-BNI/Gear Grinders/Sidewinders/ECTA
> ECTA Record Holder
>
>
>
> Interestingly enough, mitsubishi has an intake manifold specifically
> designed for this purpose. It has 2 sets of intake runners, and at low
> RPM it uses a longer runner to increase velocity, and as the flow
> increases, the switch is made to the shorter runners. As far as I know
> it was only ever put on cars in Japan.

From jolylance at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 29 13:43:35 2008
From: jolylance at earthlink.net (joseph lance)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:43:35 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <48176DDD.3060806@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <000201c8aa31$571d3330$2101a8c0@WinXP>

mayf;

 It's and inherent characteristic of valved IC engines--even with
supercharging you still have the inertial effects of stopping and starting
the flow in the ports. Even with infinitely variable valve timing the effect
will still be there. Do a gedanken experiment--imagine the valve frequency 
getting higher and higher until the intermittant flow approaches zero due to 
inertial effects no matter how much pressure you have in the port.

Lance

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:50 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> Well, shoot. This did not generate as much discussion as I hoped it
> would. It is definitely not a subject I am familiar with so was looking
> forward to lots of interesting reasons why internal combustion engines
> are not able to generate more torque past their peak torque rpm and why
> that happens. Several thoughts were that VE was the limit but it is
> unclear, at least to me, why that might be so. It is funny that if you
> add a super charge to increas the charge air density then you can get
> increaed VE but the torque still drops off anyway. I'll have to
> look...maybe it doesn't drop off as much though. I did like the 'suppose
> we add vortex generators in the port', that was to me thinking outside
> the box.
>
> In any case, as a discussion topic, this one rated a C- from me, lol...
>
> mayf

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Apr 29 14:18:49 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:18:49 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <48176DDD.3060806@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <007601c8aa36$3fab83a0$6501a8c0@Glens>

Heck, I'M still trying to figure out what a enine is. LOL
Glen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> Well, shoot. This did not generate as much discussion as I hoped it
> would. It is definitely not a subject I am familiar with so was looking
> forward to lots of interesting reasons why internal combustion engines
> are not able to generate more torque past their peak torque rpm and why
> that happens. Several thoughts were that VE was the limit but it is
> unclear, at least to me, why that might be so. It is funny that if you
> add a super charge to increas the charge air density then you can get
> increaed VE but the torque still drops off anyway. I'll have to
> look...maybe it doesn't drop off as much though. I did like the 'suppose
> we add vortex generators in the port', that was to me thinking outside
> the box.
>
> In any case, as a discussion topic, this one rated a C- from me, lol...
>
> mayf
> ***********************************************************************
> Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I
> thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the 
> list..
>
> The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at
> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
> then torque should keep going up.
>
> Comments?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Damnations?
>
> Blasphemy?
>
> Theories?
>
> Conjecture?
>
> Oh, and the question last week regarding use of the course during a
> drivers course inspection... well, see rule 1.L    second paragraph. Not
> allowed without permission. Under contestant conduct...
>
> mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Tue Apr 29 15:00:03 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:00:03 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <48176DDD.3060806@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c8aa3c$03142270$6501a8c0@S>

OK Mayf.  I'm going to go back and dig out Obert's book (published when I
was 5) and visit with him for a while.

Sometime later -- This is hard to do in a short burst but I'll try......
At all speeds within the mechanical limits of an engine (of known constant
displacement) the torque would stay the same if:
1. Volumetric efficiency stays at 100%
2. Mechanical efficiency stays at 100% ( zero friction, pumping losses and
accessory drag)
3. Throttle setting stays the same.
4. Ignition and burning of the fuel stays the same if not perfect. (did I
forget anything here)
Trouble is that the volumetric efficiency drops both below and above the
design speed range of otto and diesel cycle engines largely due to the way
valves are timed.  This means less fuel/oxidizer gets efficiently burned at
each ignition stroke.
To make it worse the mechanical losses tend to go up mostly exponentially
with speed.  This especially includes piston/ring/bearing drag and pumping
losses moving intake and exhaust gasses.
You can play some tricks to flatten out the torque curve and push its drop
off higher in the RPM scale.   Variable valve timing is one obvious way.
Another is to reduce friction losses with better lubrication and more
accurately built engine mechanisms.  And then you can bring in some of the
oxygen in liquid form rather than a gas like air.  This effectively improves
volumetric efficiency and reduces pumping losses on the intake cycle.  (i.e.
nitromethane)
But there is no way to completely defeat the friction and pumping effects.
So the net useful energy you get out of each power stroke (which determines
torque) will eventually drop off with increasing RPM's.
BTW, your observation about supercharged engines can probably be explained
as a coincidental effect of the greatly increased pumping losses in the
blower engine itself.
I'd also reiterate that the torque/speed characteristics we observe have a
lot to do with the job our race motors were originally designed for and the
mods we put into them.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:50 AM
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


> Well, shoot. This did not generate as much discussion as I hoped it
> would.

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Apr 29 16:01:25 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:01:25 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] landracing.com
Message-ID: <006b01c8aa44$96c06b70$6501a8c0@Glens>

Not sure if it's my server or not but I have been having problems getting on
the site and slow on others. The chat line seems to be OK.  Hope we can get on
tonight.
Glen

From BWANA343 at aol.com  Tue Apr 29 16:28:06 2008
From: BWANA343 at aol.com (BWANA343 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:28:06 EDT
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
Message-ID: <cfc.31b9024c.3548faf6@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/2008 4:21:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
speedtimer at beyondbb.com writes:

Heck,  I'M still trying to figure out what a enine is. LOL


I think it's a flub by the left fielder ?...or what comes before eten  ? I 
think it's that language movement that enjoyed popularity in the 30s and  40s, 
Emayfin....
Bob, eakspay uentflay Mayf, W



**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Apr 29 17:11:47 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:11:47 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <cfc.31b9024c.3548faf6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007801c8aa4e$6de786c0$6501a8c0@Glens>

I keep fergitten they live in Pahrump Nevada, the land of desert rats and
other critters they have under the rocks. Could be that DrMayf has been in the
sun and wind all day out yonder. It could be a language of the locals called
Pahrumpspeak aka babble speak, that's somtin like BS.
90 degrees and breezy in St. George.
Glen
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: BWANA343 at aol.com
  To: speedtimer at beyondbb.com ; land-speed at autox.team.net
  Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


  In a message dated 4/29/2008 4:21:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
speedtimer at beyondbb.com writes:
    Heck, I'M still trying to figure out what a enine is. LOL
  I think it's a flub by the left fielder ?...or what comes before eten ? I
think it's that language movement that enjoyed popularity in the 30s and 40s,
Emayfin....
  Bob, eakspay uentflay Mayf, W





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
  Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos.

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Apr 29 18:29:39 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:39 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
In-Reply-To: <007601c8aa36$3fab83a0$6501a8c0@Glens>
References: <48176DDD.3060806@mayfco.com>
	<007601c8aa36$3fab83a0$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <4817BD73.70706@mayfco.com>

Pinch your nose and say it like a three year old might say it, lol..

so I guess typing and spelling are now a requirement for the list, eh? 
Ok, I'll remember that..

mayf


Glen Barrett wrote:

> Heck, I'M still trying to figure out what a enine is. LOL
> Glen
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
> To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:50 PM
> Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
>
>
>> Well, shoot. This did not generate as much discussion as I hoped it
>> would. It is definitely not a subject I am familiar with so was looking
>> forward to lots of interesting reasons why internal combustion engines
>> are not able to generate more torque past their peak torque rpm and why
>> that happens. Several thoughts were that VE was the limit but it is
>> unclear, at least to me, why that might be so. It is funny that if you
>> add a super charge to increas the charge air density then you can get
>> increaed VE but the torque still drops off anyway. I'll have to
>> look...maybe it doesn't drop off as much though. I did like the 'suppose
>> we add vortex generators in the port', that was to me thinking outside
>> the box.
>>
>> In any case, as a discussion topic, this one rated a C- from me, lol...
>>
>> mayf
>> ***********************************************************************
>> Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I
>> thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the 
>> list..
>>
>> The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at
>> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
>> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
>> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
>> then torque should keep going up.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Damnations?
>>
>> Blasphemy?
>>
>> Theories?
>>
>> Conjecture?
>>
>> Oh, and the question last week regarding use of the course during a
>> drivers course inspection... well, see rule 1.L    second paragraph. Not
>> allowed without permission. Under contestant conduct...
>>
>> mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump
>> Land-speed mailing list
>>
>> You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> Land-speed mailing list
>>
>> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Apr 29 18:38:36 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:38:36 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
References: <48176DDD.3060806@mayfco.com>
	<007601c8aa36$3fab83a0$6501a8c0@Glens> <4817BD73.70706@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <011c01c8aa5a$87400f00$6501a8c0@Glens>

Just wait till Jon W. sees it, he's the master of English. Besides you need 
picking on.
GB
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "Glen Barrett" <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
Cc: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...


>
> Pinch your nose and say it like a three year old might say it, lol..
>
> so I guess typing and spelling are now a requirement for the list, eh? Ok, 
> I'll remember that..
>
> mayf
>
>
> Glen Barrett wrote:
>
>> Heck, I'M still trying to figure out what a enine is. LOL
>> Glen
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
>> To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:50 PM
>> Subject: [Land-speed] Enine Torque Theoretical Question...
>>
>>
>>> Well, shoot. This did not generate as much discussion as I hoped it
>>> would. It is definitely not a subject I am familiar with so was looking
>>> forward to lots of interesting reasons why internal combustion engines
>>> are not able to generate more torque past their peak torque rpm and why
>>> that happens. Several thoughts were that VE was the limit but it is
>>> unclear, at least to me, why that might be so. It is funny that if you
>>> add a super charge to increas the charge air density then you can get
>>> increaed VE but the torque still drops off anyway. I'll have to
>>> look...maybe it doesn't drop off as much though. I did like the 'suppose
>>> we add vortex generators in the port', that was to me thinking outside
>>> the box.
>>>
>>> In any case, as a discussion topic, this one rated a C- from me, lol...
>>>
>>> mayf
>>> ***********************************************************************
>>> Well, just sitting here wondering what to do with myself ... so I
>>> thought I would see if I could arouse some moe conversation among the 
>>> list..
>>>
>>> The question of the week is: Why does the torque of an engine peak at
>>> some rpm less that what the engine can turn? I am not a motoroligist so
>>> I do not understand.  Seems to me that if you can keep the cylinders
>>> filled and then get the compressed air fuel mix lit at the proper time,
>>> then torque should keep going up.
>>>
>>> Comments?
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Damnations?
>>>
>>> Blasphemy?
>>>
>>> Theories?
>>>
>>> Conjecture?
>>>
>>> Oh, and the question last week regarding use of the course during a
>>> drivers course inspection... well, see rule 1.L    second paragraph. Not
>>> allowed without permission. Under contestant conduct...
>>>
>>> mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump
>>> Land-speed mailing list
>>>
>>> You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>>>
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>
>>> Land-speed mailing list
>>>
>>> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>>>
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Apr 29 19:08:35 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:08:35 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Snow Water Injection
Message-ID: <4817C693.10501@mayfco.com>

Are there others on the list besides myself and David Adin using a Snow 
Water Injection system? I bought used from David and it is 
malfunctioning and I'd like to speak to another user who might have a 
manual in hand. It is an older version of the VC 25 system now being sold.

off list is great!
'
mayf

From speedtimer at beyondbb.com  Tue Apr 29 19:28:10 2008
From: speedtimer at beyondbb.com (Glen Barrett)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:28:10 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Snow Water Injection
References: <4817C693.10501@mayfco.com>
Message-ID: <012b01c8aa61$75456190$6501a8c0@Glens>

Let the snow melt 1st. LOL
GB
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drmayf" <drmayf at mayfco.com>
To: "LSR" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:08 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Snow Water Injection


> Are there others on the list besides myself and David Adin using a Snow
> Water Injection system? I bought used from David and it is
> malfunctioning and I'd like to speak to another user who might have a
> manual in hand. It is an older version of the VC 25 system now being sold.
>
> off list is great!
> '
> mayf
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as speedtimer at beyondbb.com
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From jon.the.wise at gmail.com  Tue Apr 29 21:14:54 2008
From: jon.the.wise at gmail.com (Jonathan)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:14:54 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Off Topic - NON LSR 1963 Ford Tbird $$  Question
In-Reply-To: <003e01c8aa0b$38a10ce0$6501a8c0@Glens>
References: <481737B6.2070708@mayfco.com>
	<003e01c8aa0b$38a10ce0$6501a8c0@Glens>
Message-ID: <5f048ef70804292014x625109d6p2d649fa9406b37ef@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:10 AM, Glen Barrett <speedtimer at beyondbb.com>
wrote:

> Google the KELLY BLUE BOOK>
>

http://www.kbb.com? Not going to help for cars made before the '80s though.

Still, for $1500, it's more than worth it, as long as it's all there. I'd
jump on it.

-- 
~Jon

From ed at vetteracing.com  Tue Apr 29 22:52:25 2008
From: ed at vetteracing.com (Ed Van Scoy)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 04:52:25 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Snow Water Injection
Message-ID: <W310927697322151209531145@webmail6>

-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Barrett [mailto:speedtimer at beyondbb.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 06:28 PM
To: drmayf at mayfco.com, 'LSR'
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Snow Water Injection

Let the snow melt 1st. LOLGB

Don't use the yellow snow
Ed







----- Original Message ----- From: "drmayf" To: "LSR" Sent: Tuesday, April 29,
2008 7:08 PMSubject: [Land-speed] Snow Water Injection> Are there others on
the list besides myself and David Adin using a Snow> Water Injection system? I
bought used from David and it is> malfunctioning and I'd like to speak to
another user who might have a> manual in hand. It is an older version of the
VC 25 system now being sold.>> off list is great!> '> mayf

From jgmagoo at comcast.net  Wed Apr 30 12:28:38 2008
From: jgmagoo at comcast.net (jgmagoo at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:28:38 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
Message-ID: <043020081828.23088.4818BA56000B0F6600005A3022069984990101090E030906@comcast.net>

Doc, 

You wrote:  "if you can keep the cylinders filled"....

Right there you came very close to answering your own question.   ;o)

Think about this.  A  current Formula-One V-8, NATURALLY ASPIRATED, turns 19,000 RPM. That means each cylinder needs to be 'completely filled' 158-TIMES PER SECOND!

Can you immagine a beer-bottle-filling-machine at a brewery trying to fill 158 beer bottles per second?

At some point, it just can't be done..........and efficiency drops off.    ;o)

JGMagoo

Can you say, "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" 158 times per second?    ;o)

From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Apr 30 12:34:58 2008
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:34:58 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
In-Reply-To: <043020081828.23088.4818BA56000B0F6600005A3022069984990101090E030906@comcast.net>
References: <043020081828.23088.4818BA56000B0F6600005A3022069984990101090E030906@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <713AF80511B0483A9F76E84344C104B1@DaveSatellite>

Actually Cosworth is over 20k rpm in qualifying trim..LOL 19k is in 
'endurance trim' LOL
Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jgmagoo at comcast.net>
To: "land-speed-digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:28 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo


> Doc,
>
> You wrote:  "if you can keep the cylinders filled"....
>
> Right there you came very close to answering your own question.   ;o)
>
> Think about this.  A  current Formula-One V-8, NATURALLY ASPIRATED, turns 
> 19,000 RPM. That means each cylinder needs to be 'completely filled' 
> 158-TIMES PER SECOND!
>
> Can you immagine a beer-bottle-filling-machine at a brewery trying to fill 
> 158 beer bottles per second?
>
> At some point, it just can't be done..........and efficiency drops off. 
> ;o)
>
> JGMagoo
>
> Can you say, "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" 158 times per second?    ;o)

From DavidAdin at mercydurango.org  Wed Apr 30 12:54:30 2008
From: DavidAdin at mercydurango.org (Adin, David)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:54:30 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
In-Reply-To: <713AF80511B0483A9F76E84344C104B1@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <DED4A4C1DC044B438FDBC428A339D2D505D16C68@cddgomsx01.durango-co.catholichealth.net>

IIRC (if i remember correctly) the 19,000rpm is a mandated (rules)
limit.  I do remember someone running OVER 20,000rpm in qualifying.
IIRC Cosworth (who, until recently had more F1 wins than ANYONE) hasn't
made a motor for the current 2.4 formula.

They DO spin those puppies but no one seems to want to tell me how.  (I
know its double cubic $, but what do they buy?)

David

-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+davidadin=mercydurango.org at autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Dave Dahlgren
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:35 PM
To: jgmagoo at comcast.net; land-speed-digest
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo

Actually Cosworth is over 20k rpm in qualifying trim..LOL 19k is in
'endurance trim' LOL
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: <jgmagoo at comcast.net>
To: "land-speed-digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:28 PM
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo


> Doc,
>
> You wrote:  "if you can keep the cylinders filled"....
>
> Right there you came very close to answering your own question.   ;o)
>
> Think about this.  A  current Formula-One V-8, NATURALLY ASPIRATED,
turns
> 19,000 RPM. That means each cylinder needs to be 'completely filled'
> 158-TIMES PER SECOND!
>
> Can you immagine a beer-bottle-filling-machine at a brewery trying to
fill
> 158 beer bottles per second?
>
> At some point, it just can't be done..........and efficiency drops
off.
> ;o)
>
> JGMagoo
>
> Can you say, "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" 158 times per second?    ;o)
Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed as davidadin at mercydurango.org

http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Wed Apr 30 14:20:28 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:20:28 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
In-Reply-To: <713AF80511B0483A9F76E84344C104B1@DaveSatellite>
References: <043020081828.23088.4818BA56000B0F6600005A3022069984990101090E030906@comcast.net>
	<713AF80511B0483A9F76E84344C104B1@DaveSatellite>
Message-ID: <20080430202001.26012187877@autox.team.net>

And...how much ignition advance do they run at 20k to help the flame 
front stay up with the piston speed???? Top Fuel engines run as much 
as 65 degrees to enable 9000 RPM. It's not just VE.
Skip




At 11:34 AM 4/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>Actually Cosworth is over 20k rpm in qualifying trim..LOL 19k is in
>'endurance trim' LOL
>Dave
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <jgmagoo at comcast.net>
>To: "land-speed-digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:28 PM
>Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
>
>
> > Doc,
> >
> > You wrote:  "if you can keep the cylinders filled"....
> >
> > Right there you came very close to answering your own question.   ;o)
> >
> > Think about this.  A  current Formula-One V-8, NATURALLY ASPIRATED, turns
> > 19,000 RPM. That means each cylinder needs to be 'completely filled'
> > 158-TIMES PER SECOND!
> >
> > Can you immagine a beer-bottle-filling-machine at a brewery trying to fill
> > 158 beer bottles per second?
> >
> > At some point, it just can't be done..........and efficiency drops off.
> > ;o)
> >
> > JGMagoo
> >
> > Can you say, "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" 158 times per second?    ;o)
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as saltrat at pahrump.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltrat at pahrump.com  Wed Apr 30 14:26:22 2008
From: saltrat at pahrump.com (Skip Higginbotham)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:26:22 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
Message-ID: <20080430202558.35ED4187877@autox.team.net>

And...how much ignition advance do they run at 20k to help the flame 
front stay up with the piston speed???? Top Fuel engines run as much 
as 65 degrees to enable 9000 RPM. It's not just VE.
Skip




At 11:34 AM 4/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>Actually Cosworth is over 20k rpm in qualifying trim..LOL 19k is in
>'endurance trim' LOL
>Dave

From joyseydevil at comcast.net  Wed Apr 30 14:36:49 2008
From: joyseydevil at comcast.net (John Burk)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:36:49 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
Message-ID: <002001c8ab01$eb2de670$466a2544@john>

 A 358 NASCAR engine at 9K rpm inhales more c.i./second than a 2.4 F1 v8 at 
20K rpm .
John 

From jgmagoo at comcast.net  Wed Apr 30 15:47:47 2008
From: jgmagoo at comcast.net (jgmagoo at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:47:47 +0000
Subject: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo
Message-ID: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>

I hear on the F-1 television coverage that 19,000 RPM is currently the rule-mandated limit which cannot be exceeded either in qualifying or in the race. This is supposedly in an effort to control escalating costs.  ;o)  (I love it!)

>From what I have heard, sonic-wave tuning throughout the entire intake and exhaust system plays a big part in it. Pneumatic valve springs was a major 'breakthrough' in achieving ultra high RPM several years ago. 

An interesting tidbit that I heard on the TV from Steve Matchett on his Inside Formula One TV show was that at normal room temperature (say 70-F) a Formula One engine is completely SIEZED, and will NOT turn over with the starter. It is only after a period of time pre-heating it by pumping 180-F water and 180-F oil through it that it reaches proper internal clearances where it can be turned-over and started by the starter apparatus.   Wow!  ;o)

Did you guys notice the JCB diesel streamliner using all the fancy engine pre-heat systems at B-ville?  Who knows???  Maybe (probably) it was just for starting with extermely low C.R. for the high boost. ???

I've seen the diesels at competition tractor-pulls pre-heated to absolute boiling and cranked with 48-volts into a 12-volt starter, and they STILL use either to get them to fire!

JG

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Wed Apr 30 16:02:52 2008
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:02:52 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
In-Reply-To: <20080430202001.26012187877@autox.team.net>
References: <043020081828.23088.4818BA56000B0F6600005A3022069984990101090E030906@comcast.net>
	<713AF80511B0483A9F76E84344C104B1@DaveSatellite>
	<20080430202001.26012187877@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <4818EC8C.7040207@mayfco.com>

To me, that is simply amazing! I do not know what kind of cam those guys 
run but I suspect it has some overlap between intake and compression 
strokes. Lets say maybe 8 degrees although that may not be acccurate. 
Then the compression stroke is only an effective 82 degrees and the fire 
is being lit only 7 degrees away from intake valve closing. That junk 
must be really hard to light and the flame front must be very slow as 
well. Ideally the peak pressure would come right at TDC, I suppose, but 
I don't really know. Fascinating. Maybe that's why the blower explosions 
we occasionally see are so spectacular... Valve hangs just for a 
millisecond or two and KaBoom in the manifold.. More to this that I ever 
imagined...

mayf.
Skip Higginbotham wrote:

>And...how much ignition advance do they run at 20k to help the flame 
>front stay up with the piston speed???? Top Fuel engines run as much 
>as 65 degrees to enable 9000 RPM. It's not just VE.
>Skip
>
>
>
>
>At 11:34 AM 4/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>  
>
>>Actually Cosworth is over 20k rpm in qualifying trim..LOL 19k is in
>>'endurance trim' LOL
>>Dave
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <jgmagoo at comcast.net>
>>To: "land-speed-digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
>>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:28 PM
>>Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Doc,
>>>
>>>You wrote:  "if you can keep the cylinders filled"....
>>>
>>>Right there you came very close to answering your own question.   ;o)
>>>
>>>Think about this.  A  current Formula-One V-8, NATURALLY ASPIRATED, turns
>>>19,000 RPM. That means each cylinder needs to be 'completely filled'
>>>158-TIMES PER SECOND!
>>>
>>>Can you immagine a beer-bottle-filling-machine at a brewery trying to fill
>>>158 beer bottles per second?
>>>
>>>At some point, it just can't be done..........and efficiency drops off.
>>>;o)
>>>
>>>JGMagoo
>>>
>>>Can you say, "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" 158 times per second?    ;o)
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>Land-speed mailing list
>>
>>You are subscribed as saltrat at pahrump.com
>>
>>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Land-speed mailing list
>
>You are subscribed as drmayf at mayfco.com
>
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From neil at dbelltech.com  Wed Apr 30 16:29:15 2008
From: neil at dbelltech.com (neil at dbelltech.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:29:15 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo
In-Reply-To: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>
References: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <024a01c8ab11$a188a5e0$0200a8c0@DBTech>

JG;

Those RPM figures are what model airplane engines turned when I was a kid. I
have fond remembrances of a Dooling .29 running on "bug juice".

Some of these little engines had extremely tight piston/cylinder clearances
so that rings could be eliminated completely. The pistons were lapped into
the cylinders to get those tight clearances. I wonder if F1 engines are
doing that; it would eliminate some friction and the high RPM ring problems.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ



-----Original Message-----
From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
[mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
jgmagoo at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:48 PM
To: land-speed-digest
Subject: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo

I hear on the F-1 television coverage that 19,000 RPM is currently the
rule-mandated limit which cannot be exceeded either in qualifying or in the
race. This is supposedly in an effort to control escalating costs.  ;o)  (I
love it!)

>From what I have heard, sonic-wave tuning throughout the entire intake and
exhaust system plays a big part in it. Pneumatic valve springs was a major
'breakthrough' in achieving ultra high RPM several years ago. 

An interesting tidbit that I heard on the TV from Steve Matchett on his
Inside Formula One TV show was that at normal room temperature (say 70-F) a
Formula One engine is completely SIEZED, and will NOT turn over with the
starter. It is only after a period of time pre-heating it by pumping 180-F
water and 180-F oil through it that it reaches proper internal clearances
where it can be turned-over and started by the starter apparatus.   Wow!
;o)

Did you guys notice the JCB diesel streamliner using all the fancy engine
pre-heat systems at B-ville?  Who knows???  Maybe (probably) it was just for
starting with extermely low C.R. for the high boost. ???

I've seen the diesels at competition tractor-pulls pre-heated to absolute
boiling and cranked with 48-volts into a 12-volt starter, and they STILL use
either to get them to fire!

JG

From karhu at california.com  Wed Apr 30 16:57:33 2008
From: karhu at california.com (Benn)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:57:33 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo
References: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c8ab15$934d9fe0$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>

If they "seize" at room temp, how are they assembled?  Methinks there's more
to the story....
Benn

> An interesting tidbit that I heard on the TV from Steve Matchett on his
> Inside Formula One TV show was that at normal room temperature (say 70-F)
> a Formula One engine is completely SIEZED, and will NOT turn over with the
> starter. It is only after a period of time pre-heating it by pumping 180-F
> water and 180-F oil through it that it reaches proper internal clearances
> where it can be turned-over and started by the starter apparatus.   Wow!
> ;o)

From jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org  Wed Apr 30 17:35:28 2008
From: jonwennerberg at nancyandjon.org (Jon Wennerberg)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:35:28 -0400
Subject: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo
In-Reply-To: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>
References: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B378E1DB-DF5B-4BDB-9EF3-90EF9CB39725@nancyandjon.org>

On Apr 30, 2008, at 5:47 PM, jgmagoo at comcast.net wrote:


Did you guys notice the JCB diesel streamliner using all the fancy  
engine pre-heat systems at B-ville?  Who knows???  Maybe (probably) it  
was just for starting with extermely low C.R. for the high boost. ???


JG



I thought that diesels don't have to run with extremely low  
compression ratio when running high boost.  I mean, they've got to  
have the CR high for starting and when the turbo isn't spooled up, and  
anyway, they run by ignition because of compression making heat.   
Strong innards are required -- that's how they hold together.

Clem Roberts (that was his name, right) ran his Ford p/u at Maxton  
(and once at Bonneville) with sequential turbos making 120# boost by  
the time the charge air got to the intake valve.  It was transmission  
troubles that did him in.

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Wed Apr 30 19:25:10 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:25:10 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] high speed engines/tight clearances
References: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>
	<024a01c8ab11$a188a5e0$0200a8c0@DBTech>
Message-ID: <003a01c8ab2a$3588c0f0$6501a8c0@S>

Neil -- I think you're on to something there.  Adding silicon to aluminum
alloys reduces their temperature coefficient of expansion (CTE).  Raw
aluminum is about 13 millionths of an inch per inch per degree Farenheit
(F).  Common 356 casting alloy is 11.7 millionths.  Tuning block and piston
alloys to the right CTE just requires some patience on the part of
metallurgists and the foundry crew.
We've got the measuring and machining capability to hold 25 millionths
tolerances on 2" to 3" diameter bores (not cheap).  I can see where holding
piston to bore clearances tight enough to control oil and hold a good
pressure film to prevent high friction metal to metal contact would allow us
to go with only one and maybe even no compression ring.  Take a bit of
expensive engineering effort; including temperature control in the operating
engine; but that's just part of the F1 game (and no doubt a source of pride
in western EU engineering cultures).
Ed
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <neil at dbelltech.com>
To: <jgmagoo at comcast.net>; "'land-speed-digest'" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo
>fond remembrances of a Dooling .29 running on "bug juice".
> Some of these little engines had extremely tight piston/cylinder
clearances
> so that rings could be eliminated completely. The pistons were lapped into
> the cylinders to get those tight clearances. I wonder if F1 engines are
> doing that; it would eliminate some friction and the high RPM ring
problems.
> Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net
> [mailto:land-speed-bounces+neil=dbelltech.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of
> jgmagoo at comcast.net
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:48 PM
> To: land-speed-digest
> Subject: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo
>
> (snip)........ normal room temperature (say 70-F) a
> Formula One engine is completely SIEZED, and will NOT turn over with the
> starter. It is only after a period of time pre-heating it by pumping 180-F
> water and 180-F oil through it that it reaches proper internal clearances
> where it can be turned-over and started by the starter apparatus.   Wow!
> ;o) ......... JG

From 23.weldon at comcast.net  Wed Apr 30 20:09:15 2008
From: 23.weldon at comcast.net (Ed Weldon)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:09:15 -0700
Subject: [Land-speed] high speed engines/tight clearances
References: <043020082147.13656.4818E903000158BB0000355822069997350101090E030906@comcast.net>
	<000c01c8ab15$934d9fe0$6501a8c0@BennsDesktop>
Message-ID: <004c01c8ab30$5e52e550$6501a8c0@S>

Benn - Just guessing here--
 Heat the block and/or cool the pistons during assembly.  If the block
cooling passageways were completely sealed without the head being installed
or if it's an Offy type integral head/block then temperature controlled hot
water can circulate through the block at assembly to keep it's temperature
elevated.  Be tough to work on much over 120F; everything better go together
quick.  None of that fiddling and wiggling like we have to do on old
flatheads.
Further to my last email about CTE's (Coefficient ot Thermal Expansion) -- 
Pistons made out of an aluminum-ceramic composite with a CTE less than the
block might be the answer.  For the last 10 year or so the engineering world
has been hearing about aluminum composites with varying amounts of ceramic
content.  They're a lot stiffer and stronger than metal aluminum alloys and
as might be expected they have lower CTE's.  Not cheap or easy to machine.
Such materials would be naturals for pistons as long as they can transfer
heat adequetly and avoid metal to metal contact whereever oil films can't be
maintained (the hard ceramic in the metal is going to act like sandpaper if
the oil film fails.
OK, I don't keep up with F1 technology; so I may just be blowing dust in the
wind here.  But it's the best explanation I can think of.
Ed Weldon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Benn" <karhu at california.com>
To: "land-speed-digest" <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] VE, etc.>From>JG Magoo


> If they "seize" at room temp, how are they assembled?  Methinks there's
more
> to the story....
> Benn
>
> > An interesting tidbit that I heard on the TV from Steve Matchett on his
> > Inside Formula One TV show was that at normal room temperature (say
70-F)
> > a Formula One engine is completely SIEZED, and will NOT turn over with
the
> > starter. It is only after a period of time pre-heating it by pumping
180-F
> > water and 180-F oil through it that it reaches proper internal
clearances
> > where it can be turned-over and started by the starter apparatus.   Wow!
> > ;o)
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Land-speed mailing list
>
> You are subscribed as 23.weldon at comcast.net
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/land-speed

From saltfevr at q.com  Wed Apr 30 20:55:08 2008
From: saltfevr at q.com (Tom Shannon)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:55:08 -0600
Subject: [Land-speed] (non lsr) USS Nimitz On Deck
Message-ID: <BAY122-W36E8A1FEF29011A9F40EB3C9DB0@phx.gbl>

List;

Super PBS series entitled, "Carrier". If you missed part one,this is for you
"fly boys". And you thought your job was dangerous! Go Navy!
http://www.komando.com/videos/4-29.asp
Tom ShannonMagna, Utah

From mike_lackey at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 30 22:56:36 2008
From: mike_lackey at yahoo.com (Mike Lackey)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Land-speed] Torque Drop>From>JG Magoo
Message-ID: <57280.83128.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Top Fuel engines need that much timing advance because of the fuel, not the
rpm.  Nitromethane burns much slower than gasoline, so the timing needs to be
advanced more to maximize power.  My street bike revs to 14,000 rpm and full
advance is only at 43 degrees and it uses standard supreme pump gas.
I have no
idea what F1 uses for fuel.
Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: Skip
Higginbotham <saltrat at pahrump.com>
To: Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net>;
jgmagoo at comcast.net; land-speed-digest <land-speed at autox.team.net>
Sent:
Wednesday, April 30, 2008 1:26:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Land-speed] Torque
Drop>From>JG Magoo

And...how much ignition advance do they run at 20k to help
the flame 
front stay up with the piston speed???? Top Fuel engines run as
much 
as 65 degrees to enable 9000 RPM. It's not just VE.
Skip




At 11:34 AM
4/30/2008, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>Actually Cosworth is over 20k rpm in
qualifying trim..LOL 19k is in
>'endurance trim' LOL
>Dave
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net 
http://www.team.net/donate.html

Land-speed mailing list

You are subscribed
as mike_lackey at yahoo.com

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