[Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT

Sat Dec 16 10:27:48 MST 2023

Hi Curt--

No criticism of Bill Meade intended but I did not know that he was seeking
to *sell* the registry as opposed to turning it over to someone, nor did I
ever consider a registry to be a saleable item and always thought them to
be more a labor of love".

After making sure that my hand is suitably lowered I wonder what would
happen were there no price attached to the acquisition of it and/or the
data?

Best--Michael Oritt

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:55 AM Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over
> the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing so
> came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high for
> something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work involved.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Curt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:49 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>
>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>
>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>
>>
>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>> collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>
>>> bs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>> consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What makes a 100M?
>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>
>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>> Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>> bands).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>
>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>> in the lump!
>>>>
>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply
>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>> it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>
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>>>>> 
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