[Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Bob Spidell
bspidell at comcast.net
Fri Dec 15 22:36:33 MST 2023
The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine,
but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a
kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on
Monday?').
I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640
cars only 3,000 remain).
bs
On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't
> that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
> If the "M" designation involved significant performance
> modifications, say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily
> copied, then I would consider them be very special.
> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
> Just my opinion.
>
> M
>
> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys,
> <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In
> my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price
> category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car
> that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M
> is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But
> this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major
> modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the
> front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be
> simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an
> original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to
> admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for
> what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an
> Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>
> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>
> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which
> may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a
> 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>
> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but
> I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging
> an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, /maybe/). The main problem I
> see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit')
> with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the
> 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on
> 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>
>
> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with
> that caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was
> so bad it needed a new frame. How hard would it be to
> transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along
> with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems
> to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original
> engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's
> Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?
> Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted
> with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer
> has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its
> character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood.
> It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was
> replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial
> number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore.
> The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an
> original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover,
> remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so
> we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell
> <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Excellent report, thank you.
>
> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to
> comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar
> with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious
> differences with my car (which was completely original as
> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One
> thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
> Registry certified this car, while noting some major
> anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>
> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value
> this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good
> driver but, IMO, its value /should/ be less than a
> comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did
> the previous owner know, or should have known about this
> car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
> bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the
> page title.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>
> If you were following it recently, you might find my
> observations interesting. So I went down to Michael's
> motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed
> has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
> pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount
> the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the
> later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock
> towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the
> factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
> non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to
> accommodate the BN2 mount.
> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has
> two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining
> a light it different directions to just make out the
> slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just
> below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and
> welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I
> can tell you someone took great care to try and make
> those holes seem as they never existed. Along with
> that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay
> attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed
> into welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see
> plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would
> be a BN2 relay position.
> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the
> lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/
> letters stamped with a deeper end result. I took my
> repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN
> plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the
> engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could
> be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced.
> Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can
> attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated
> that it indeed has that M power.
> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket
> being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely
> you can see that the boot shows some previous
> age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not
> make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
> sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the
> underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but
> that would be for someone else to decide.
> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,
> and I simply don't have that experience to know. I
> have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original. It
> does indeed look to have some age, so?
> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went
> to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M
> parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
> interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill
> the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the
> frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the
> holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent
> the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint
> is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good.
> Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years
> of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his
> opinions on that. With the quality of the
> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to
> shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome
> looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a
> popular vote car would not be an issue.
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an
> antique car is a test drive."
>
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