From emmgeeteecee at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec  2 18:27:27 2023
From: emmgeeteecee at yahoo.co.uk (David Lodge)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 01:27:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] Parts.
References: <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645@mail.yahoo.com>

To the group, greetings!
Anybody had any dealings with these characters?? They have a hugely impressive catalogue, I must say!
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Sun Dec  3 08:20:12 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 07:20:12 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Parts.
In-Reply-To: <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a149a949-c2eb-46ab-86d2-b996d2bb6e76@comcast.net>

I haven't dealt with the company itself, but I am familiar with one of 
their products. Anyone with a 100--or even a 6-cyl car--knows getting 
quality water pumps is a problem. Bastuck sells (makes?) a supposedly 
'uprated' pump for 100s, of which I've bought a couple (long story--see 
below). Their pump won't pass muster with the Concours Committee due, in 
part to it having the company name molded onto the body and other 
cosmetic issues, and its threading won't fit the OEM brass shutoff valve 
(WHY??? -- it comes with a barbed nipple). But, the real issue is it is 
supplied with a threaded plug which, well, doesn't plug. The plug is a 
good mm or two too small in diameter and, is machine thread and is quite 
sloppy in its hole. I tried:

- (lots of) teflon tape
- thread sealant
- JB weld

... and couldn't get a seal (yes, the pump had to come out and back in 
with each attempt, at least, until I wised-up and tested it on the 
bench). Finally, I got pissed-off and brazed that sucker, which made a 
seal but I damaged the internal seal so I wasn't comfortable installing 
it. On the recommendation of someone on this list I tried a Permatex 
product called 'Seal and Lock' which worked a treat (NFI). So, that's 
what I know about them; they sell a part that is obviously, well, 
imperfect. OTOH, the only alternative is from County (don't get me 
started). I did get my OEM pump rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder but, 
for now, it stays on the shelf.

bs




On 12/2/2023 5:27 PM, David Lodge via Healeys wrote:
> To the group, greetings!
>
> Anybody had any dealings with these characters?? They have a hugely 
> impressive catalogue, I must say!
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From fgspringer at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 12:42:43 2023
From: fgspringer at gmail.com (FGary Springer)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 13:42:43 -0600
Subject: [Healeys] Parts.
In-Reply-To: <a149a949-c2eb-46ab-86d2-b996d2bb6e76@comcast.net>
References: <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a149a949-c2eb-46ab-86d2-b996d2bb6e76@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAGEBjophLsDEpdb4wCyFVivRtXrO7ROouHiUnkPembrRJS_1zw@mail.gmail.com>

My dealings with Bastuck, though limited, went well. In 2022 I need a rear
brake adjuster (BT7) and saw that M-M source was Bastuck so I contacted
them online and purchased two units as the price for two was slightly
higher that one from M-M with shipping considered. (DHL).  Worked out ok
and they included  3 or their catalogs which I passed on to others.
Gary Springer

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 9:47?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> I haven't dealt with the company itself, but I am familiar with one of
> their products. Anyone with a 100--or even a 6-cyl car--knows getting
> quality water pumps is a problem. Bastuck sells (makes?) a supposedly
> 'uprated' pump for 100s, of which I've bought a couple (long story--see
> below). Their pump won't pass muster with the Concours Committee due, in
> part to it having the company name molded onto the body and other cosmetic
> issues, and its threading won't fit the OEM brass shutoff valve (WHY??? --
> it comes with a barbed nipple). But, the real issue is it is supplied with
> a threaded plug which, well, doesn't plug. The plug is a good mm or two too
> small in diameter and, is machine thread and is quite sloppy in its hole. I
> tried:
>
> - (lots of) teflon tape
> - thread sealant
> - JB weld
>
> ... and couldn't get a seal (yes, the pump had to come out and back in
> with each attempt, at least, until I wised-up and tested it on the bench).
> Finally, I got pissed-off and brazed that sucker, which made a seal but I
> damaged the internal seal so I wasn't comfortable installing it. On the
> recommendation of someone on this list I tried a Permatex product called
> 'Seal and Lock' which worked a treat (NFI). So, that's what I know about
> them; they sell a part that is obviously, well, imperfect. OTOH, the only
> alternative is from County (don't get me started). I did get my OEM pump
> rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder but, for now, it stays on the shelf.
>
> bs
>
>
>
>
> On 12/2/2023 5:27 PM, David Lodge via Healeys wrote:
>
> To the group, greetings!
>
> Anybody had any dealings with these characters?  They have a hugely
> impressive catalogue, I must say!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/fgspringer at gmail.com
>
>
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From springer.mike51 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 14:27:57 2023
From: springer.mike51 at gmail.com (Michael MacLean)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 13:27:57 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Parts.
In-Reply-To: <CAGEBjophLsDEpdb4wCyFVivRtXrO7ROouHiUnkPembrRJS_1zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1166888163.17529791.1701566847645@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a149a949-c2eb-46ab-86d2-b996d2bb6e76@comcast.net>
 <CAGEBjophLsDEpdb4wCyFVivRtXrO7ROouHiUnkPembrRJS_1zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL4ZEONuDETO0pvsL1wLzt8Wmu2JNHFXTuG1xdP8G31eqk5fbQ@mail.gmail.com>

AH Spares sells a "Premium" water pump that they say is made in the UK, but
suspiciously looks exactly like the Bastuck pump.  The Bastuck name is not
cast ito the body, but the non-ealing plug and the barbed nipple are ther
just like the Bastuck version.  The illustration shows teflon tape on the
threads of the plug and the nipple and it shows the pump with a new pulley
installed.  Oh, and they want $124 for it.  With shipping, well you decide.
Mike MacLean

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 12:21?PM FGary Springer via Healeys <
healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:

> My dealings with Bastuck, though limited, went well. In 2022 I need a rear
> brake adjuster (BT7) and saw that M-M source was Bastuck so I contacted
> them online and purchased two units as the price for two was slightly
> higher that one from M-M with shipping considered. (DHL).  Worked out ok
> and they included  3 or their catalogs which I passed on to others.
> Gary Springer
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 9:47?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I haven't dealt with the company itself, but I am familiar with one of
>> their products. Anyone with a 100--or even a 6-cyl car--knows getting
>> quality water pumps is a problem. Bastuck sells (makes?) a supposedly
>> 'uprated' pump for 100s, of which I've bought a couple (long story--see
>> below). Their pump won't pass muster with the Concours Committee due, in
>> part to it having the company name molded onto the body and other cosmetic
>> issues, and its threading won't fit the OEM brass shutoff valve (WHY??? --
>> it comes with a barbed nipple). But, the real issue is it is supplied with
>> a threaded plug which, well, doesn't plug. The plug is a good mm or two too
>> small in diameter and, is machine thread and is quite sloppy in its hole. I
>> tried:
>>
>> - (lots of) teflon tape
>> - thread sealant
>> - JB weld
>>
>> ... and couldn't get a seal (yes, the pump had to come out and back in
>> with each attempt, at least, until I wised-up and tested it on the bench).
>> Finally, I got pissed-off and brazed that sucker, which made a seal but I
>> damaged the internal seal so I wasn't comfortable installing it. On the
>> recommendation of someone on this list I tried a Permatex product called
>> 'Seal and Lock' which worked a treat (NFI). So, that's what I know about
>> them; they sell a part that is obviously, well, imperfect. OTOH, the only
>> alternative is from County (don't get me started). I did get my OEM pump
>> rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder but, for now, it stays on the shelf.
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/2/2023 5:27 PM, David Lodge via Healeys wrote:
>>
>> To the group, greetings!
>>
>> Anybody had any dealings with these characters?  They have a hugely
>> impressive catalogue, I must say!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/fgspringer at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/springer.mike51 at gmail.com
>
>
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From ardmorebusiness at xtra.co.nz  Tue Dec  5 02:42:43 2023
From: ardmorebusiness at xtra.co.nz (Mark Donaldson)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 22:42:43 +1300
Subject: [Healeys] Temperature sender line clips
Message-ID: <000401da275f$66734e20$3359ea60$@xtra.co.nz>

Learned gentlemen,

 

I need three clip fasteners for the temperature sender line  . . .  the ones
that hold it in place above the intake manifold.

 

I can secure it with small general-purpose clips but I would prefer to have
the original styled ones - new or used.  

 

I can't find a supplier.  Any ideas where might I look?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

Ardmore, NZ

 



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From rchaskell at earthlink.net  Tue Dec  5 03:58:06 2023
From: rchaskell at earthlink.net (Bob Haskell)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 05:58:06 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Temperature sender line clips
In-Reply-To: <000401da275f$66734e20$3359ea60$@xtra.co.nz>
References: <000401da275f$66734e20$3359ea60$@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <afb06dbd-53aa-472c-a458-6ac04d9c2c88@earthlink.net>

Mark,

British Car Specialists show them on their website:

https://www.britishcarspecialists.com/store/product.php?product_id=555&backtoshop_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britishcarspecialists.com%2Fstore%2Findex.php%3Fcategory%3DGAUGES%26subcategory%3DHARDWARE

Bob Haskell
Austin-Healey 3000 roadster registrar

On 12/5/23 04:42, Mark Donaldson via Healeys wrote:
>
> Learned gentlemen,
>
> I need three clip fasteners for the temperature sender line? . . .? 
> the ones that hold it in place above the intake manifold.
>
> I can secure it with small general-purpose clips but I would prefer to 
> have the original styled ones ? new or used.
>
> I can?t find a supplier.? Any ideas where might I look?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
> Ardmore, NZ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Nethttp://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys  http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/rchaskell at earthlink.net
>
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From ardmorebusiness at xtra.co.nz  Tue Dec  5 14:24:40 2023
From: ardmorebusiness at xtra.co.nz (Mark Donaldson)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 10:24:40 +1300
Subject: [Healeys] Temperature sender line clips
In-Reply-To: <afb06dbd-53aa-472c-a458-6ac04d9c2c88@earthlink.net>
References: <000401da275f$66734e20$3359ea60$@xtra.co.nz>
 <afb06dbd-53aa-472c-a458-6ac04d9c2c88@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000a01da27c1$75fce3d0$61f6ab70$@xtra.co.nz>

Super.  Thank you, Bob.

 

Mark

Ardmore, NZ

 

From: Bob Haskell <rchaskell at earthlink.net> 
Sent: Tuesday, 5 December 2023 11:58 PM
To: Mark Donaldson <ardmorebusiness at xtra.co.nz>; Healey List <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Temperature sender line clips

 

Mark,

British Car Specialists show them on their website:

https://www.britishcarspecialists.com/store/product.php?product_id=555 <https://www.britishcarspecialists.com/store/product.php?product_id=555&backtoshop_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britishcarspecialists.com%2Fstore%2Findex.php%3Fcategory%3DGAUGES%26subcategory%3DHARDWARE> &backtoshop_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britishcarspecialists.com%2Fstore%2Findex.php%3Fcategory%3DGAUGES%26subcategory%3DHARDWARE

Bob Haskell
Austin-Healey 3000 roadster registrar

On 12/5/23 04:42, Mark Donaldson via Healeys wrote:

Learned gentlemen,

 

I need three clip fasteners for the temperature sender line  . . .  the ones that hold it in place above the intake manifold.

 

I can secure it with small general-purpose clips but I would prefer to have the original styled ones ? new or used.  

 

I can?t find a supplier.  Any ideas where might I look?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

Ardmore, NZ

 







_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.75
 
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
 
Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net> 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
 
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/rchaskell at earthlink.net
 

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From airtightproductions at me.com  Wed Dec  6 14:20:57 2023
From: airtightproductions at me.com (Steven Kingsbury)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 21:20:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] Healeys Return to Bonneville
Message-ID: <04d756b1-76df-487a-a3a4-8e04ab1e0460@me.com>

The list seems a bit quiet lately, so I thought I'd send out a Christmas surprise. Back in 2010, I did a documentary on the return to Bonneville with the two tribute cars built by Steve Pike of Marsh Classics in Australia. I put the documentary out in 2010 on DVD and sold it on a worldwide basis. Back in 2018, I lost everything in the Camp Fire which went through Paradise, California, including all of the raw footage of that event, the edited master, the footage from the return event in 2012 and almost all of the DVD's. I took one of the surviving DVD's, ripped the footage off of it and uploaded the video to YouTube. I have separated the chapters and they can be found on my YouTube channel: AirTightProductions. But I have also made it easy for you to just click and watch if you like. Anyway, here's the link to get you started and I hope you enjoy watching what happened on the Bonneville Salt Flats in 2009. Bonneville 2009 Chapter 01 youtube.com Cheers! Steven Kingsbury 1955 BN1
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From boyracer466 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  6 16:10:35 2023
From: boyracer466 at gmail.com (richard mayor)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 15:10:35 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Healeys Return to Bonneville
In-Reply-To: <04d756b1-76df-487a-a3a4-8e04ab1e0460@me.com>
References: <04d756b1-76df-487a-a3a4-8e04ab1e0460@me.com>
Message-ID: <E7235E69-76B8-4CEB-97E6-BEF468E8782A@gmail.com>

Ahhh,  the memories.  The good times.  The people you meet at Bonneville.  Like the pale young deaf mute lady I met there. Alas, she could not tell me her name but I?ll never forget her ??. and the Healys too. 

?



Richard Mayor
boyracer466 at gmail.com



> On Dec 6, 2023, at 1:20 PM, Steven Kingsbury via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> The list seems a bit quiet lately, so I thought I'd send out a Christmas surprise. Back in 2010, I did a documentary on the return to Bonneville with the two tribute cars built by Steve Pike of Marsh Classics in Australia. I put the documentary out in 2010 on DVD and sold it on a worldwide basis. Back in 2018, I lost everything in the Camp Fire which went through Paradise, California, including all of the raw footage of that event, the edited master, the footage from the return event in 2012 and almost all of the DVD's. 
> 
> I took one of the surviving DVD's, ripped the footage off of it and uploaded the video to YouTube.  I have separated the chapters and they can be found on my YouTube channel: AirTightProductions. But I have also made it easy for you to just click and watch if you like. Anyway, here's the link to get you started and I hope you enjoy watching what happened on the Bonneville Salt Flats in 2009.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccX14gtCWy0&list=PLN4-NrKJZQflDS9yvqFyMuSDl5NsbvX99
> 
> Cheers!
> Steven Kingsbury
> 1955 BN1
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
> 
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/boyracer466 at gmail.com
> 

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From healeyray at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  6 20:36:22 2023
From: healeyray at yahoo.com (Ray Juncal)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 03:36:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] Healeys Return to Bonneville
In-Reply-To: <04d756b1-76df-487a-a3a4-8e04ab1e0460@me.com>
References: <04d756b1-76df-487a-a3a4-8e04ab1e0460@me.com>
Message-ID: <1210056266.1301095.1701920182384@mail.yahoo.com>

 Oh sure....



    On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 02:46:49 PM PST, Steven Kingsbury via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 The list seems a bit quiet lately, so I thought I'd send out a Christmas surprise. Back in 2010, I did a documentary on the return to Bonneville with the two tribute cars built by Steve Pike of Marsh Classics in Australia. I put the documentary out in 2010 on DVD and sold it on a worldwide basis. Back in 2018, I lost everything in the Camp Fire which went through Paradise, California, including all of the raw footage of that event, the edited master, the footage from the return event in 2012 and almost all of the DVD's.?

I took one of the surviving DVD's, ripped the footage off of it and uploaded the video to YouTube.? I have separated the chapters and they can be found on my YouTube channel: AirTightProductions. But I have also made it easy for you to just click and watch if you like. Anyway, here's the link to get you started and I hope you enjoy watching what happened on the Bonneville Salt Flats in 2009.


Bonneville 2009 Chapter 01youtube.com

Cheers!
Steven Kingsbury
1955 BN1_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys

Healeys at autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyray at yahoo.com

  
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From tappiokie at gmail.com  Thu Dec  7 14:05:43 2023
From: tappiokie at gmail.com (Jim Cox)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 16:05:43 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters
Message-ID: <55636bae-4b8c-4ae0-94ac-f45186fdccf4@gmail.com>

What does the List consider to be the best of the high torque 6-cylinder 
starters currently available? Price, reliability, fit and appearance? 
Thanks, Jim


From tom at ccw-tools.com  Fri Dec  8 01:47:04 2023
From: tom at ccw-tools.com (Tom McCay)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 08:47:04 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters
In-Reply-To: <55636bae-4b8c-4ae0-94ac-f45186fdccf4@gmail.com>
References: <55636bae-4b8c-4ae0-94ac-f45186fdccf4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CWXP123MB42137067AE79698C1C95B472F28AA@CWXP123MB4213.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Jim, best on the market is WOSP. Please see the following link:

https://www.ccw-tools.com/Automotive-Equipment/Wosperformance-Starter-Motors/Austin-Healey-Starters/WOSP-LMS005---Austin-Healey-3000--100-4-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-5435-599-1570-49102.aspx

Kindest Regards
 
Tom
Tom McCay - Director
CCW-Tools, (a division of Classic-Car-World Ltd)
32 Washingborough Road
Heighington
Lincoln
LN4 1RE
Tel: 01522 888178
Fax 0870 705 9115
e-mail: enquiries at ccw-tools.com
URL: www.ccw-tools.com
EORI Number: GB755763005000

-----Original Message-----
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Cox
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2023 9:06 PM
To: healeys at autox.team.net
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters

What does the List consider to be the best of the high torque 6-cylinder starters currently available? Price, reliability, fit and appearance? 
Thanks, Jim

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From rmarkovich at aol.com  Fri Dec  8 06:58:28 2023
From: rmarkovich at aol.com (Robert Markovich)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 13:58:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters
In-Reply-To: <CWXP123MB42137067AE79698C1C95B472F28AA@CWXP123MB4213.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <55636bae-4b8c-4ae0-94ac-f45186fdccf4@gmail.com>
 <CWXP123MB42137067AE79698C1C95B472F28AA@CWXP123MB4213.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1644599800.1938287.1702043908458@mail.yahoo.com>

Also suggest Powerlite out of the UK


Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS


On Friday, December 8, 2023, 4:26 AM, Tom McCay via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:

Hi Jim, best on the market is WOSP. Please see the following link:

https://www.ccw-tools.com/Automotive-Equipment/Wosperformance-Starter-Motors/Austin-Healey-Starters/WOSP-LMS005---Austin-Healey-3000--100-4-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-5435-599-1570-49102.aspx

Kindest Regards
 
Tom
Tom McCay - Director
CCW-Tools, (a division of Classic-Car-World Ltd)
32 Washingborough Road
Heighington
Lincoln
LN4 1RE
Tel: 01522 888178
Fax 0870 705 9115
e-mail: enquiries at ccw-tools.com
URL: www.ccw-tools.com
EORI Number: GB755763005000

-----Original Message-----
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Cox
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2023 9:06 PM
To: healeys at autox.team.net
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters

What does the List consider to be the best of the high torque 6-cylinder starters currently available? Price, reliability, fit and appearance? 
Thanks, Jim

_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.75

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From manifold at telus.net  Fri Dec  8 11:58:57 2023
From: manifold at telus.net (Harold Manifold)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:58:57 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters
In-Reply-To: <1644599800.1938287.1702043908458@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <55636bae-4b8c-4ae0-94ac-f45186fdccf4@gmail.com>
 <CWXP123MB42137067AE79698C1C95B472F28AA@CWXP123MB4213.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1644599800.1938287.1702043908458@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAFP1XCDh4Ra9JYAsG4py5QNW61ZyZmB2KW=jO=PBf2-BrUPSzQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a gear reduction starter that has worked perfectly for 2,000 miles
and counting. The starter I have is a Nippon Densco gear reduction starter.
I have seen several different brand names for the AH gear reduction
starters at a wide range of prices. Are they all derived from a Nippon
Densco starter or other brand(s) of starters?

Harold

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 6:22?AM Robert Markovich via Healeys <
healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Also suggest Powerlite out of the UK
>
>
> Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
> <https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661>
>
> On Friday, December 8, 2023, 4:26 AM, Tom McCay via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Jim, best on the market is WOSP. Please see the following link:
>
>
> https://www.ccw-tools.com/Automotive-Equipment/Wosperformance-Starter-Motors/Austin-Healey-Starters/WOSP-LMS005---Austin-Healey-3000--100-4-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-5435-599-1570-49102.aspx
>
> Kindest Regards
>
> Tom
> Tom McCay - Director
> CCW-Tools, (a division of Classic-Car-World Ltd)
> 32 Washingborough Road
> Heighington
> Lincoln
> LN4 1RE
> Tel: 01522 888178
> Fax 0870 705 9115
> e-mail: enquiries at ccw-tools.com
> URL: www.ccw-tools.com
> EORI Number: GB755763005000
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Cox
> Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2023 9:06 PM
> To: healeys at autox.team.net
> Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters
>
> What does the List consider to be the best of the high torque 6-cylinder
> starters currently available? Price, reliability, fit and appearance?
> Thanks, Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual
> donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
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>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/enquiries at classic-car-world.co.uk
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>
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> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
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>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/rmarkovich at aol.com
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> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
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From healeymanjim at hansencc.net  Fri Dec  8 20:10:09 2023
From: healeymanjim at hansencc.net (=?utf-8?Q?healeymanjim?=)
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 19:10:09 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] =?utf-8?q?hi_torque_starters?=
Message-ID: <20231209031009.47813.qmail@server278.com>

i was probably out to lunch when this question was answered but what is the solution to the fact that the ring gear is set up for the lucas starters engaging from behind the flywheel?

From michael.oritt at gmail.com  Sat Dec  9 05:28:55 2023
From: michael.oritt at gmail.com (Michael Oritt)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 07:28:55 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] hi torque starters
In-Reply-To: <20231209031009.47813.qmail@server278.com>
References: <20231209031009.47813.qmail@server278.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTa0B7Hy6vZvCBUthQTtRz7udOX=WxS8i9UK+=Mq7sgpSQQgg@mail.gmail.com>

Jim--

I had the same question before adding a high-torque starter years ago but
no solution is necessary.  It simply works!

Best--Michael Oritt

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 10:37?PM healeymanjim <healeymanjim at hansencc.net>
wrote:

> i was probably out to lunch when this question was answered but what is
> the solution to the fact that the ring gear is set up for the lucas
> starters engaging from behind the flywheel?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>
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From fsufan1952 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  9 13:58:21 2023
From: fsufan1952 at yahoo.com (fsufan1952 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 15:58:21 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] hi torque starters
In-Reply-To: <CAPTa0B7Hy6vZvCBUthQTtRz7udOX=WxS8i9UK+=Mq7sgpSQQgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTa0B7Hy6vZvCBUthQTtRz7udOX=WxS8i9UK+=Mq7sgpSQQgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D1E118D-5850-4A28-8C85-BDD4EDB75C3C@yahoo.com>

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From tom at ccw-tools.com  Sat Dec  9 14:48:36 2023
From: tom at ccw-tools.com (Tom McCay)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 21:48:36 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters
In-Reply-To: <CAFP1XCDh4Ra9JYAsG4py5QNW61ZyZmB2KW=jO=PBf2-BrUPSzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55636bae-4b8c-4ae0-94ac-f45186fdccf4@gmail.com>
 <CWXP123MB42137067AE79698C1C95B472F28AA@CWXP123MB4213.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1644599800.1938287.1702043908458@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAFP1XCDh4Ra9JYAsG4py5QNW61ZyZmB2KW=jO=PBf2-BrUPSzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CWXP123MB4213BBF93848C1CD2F48ADE8F289A@CWXP123MB4213.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

There is only one Denso brand and this is what WOSP supply here in the UK. WOSP are the sole Denso importer with all other suppliers of high torque starters offering generic copies of denso but not genuine denso units.



Kindest Regards



Tom

Tom McCay - Director

CCW-Tools, (a division of Classic-Car-World Ltd)

32 Washingborough Road

Heighington

Lincoln

LN4 1RE

Tel: 01522 888178

Fax 0870 705 9115

e-mail: enquiries at ccw-tools.com

URL: www.ccw-tools.com
EORI Number: GB755763005000

________________________________
From: Harold Manifold <manifold at telus.net>
Sent: 08 December 2023 18:58
To: Robert Markovich <rmarkovich at aol.com>
Cc: Tom McCay <tom at ccw-tools.com>; Jim Cox <tappiokie at gmail.com>; healeys at autox.team.net <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] High Torque Starters

I have a gear reduction starter that has worked perfectly for 2,000 miles and counting. The starter I have is a Nippon Densco gear reduction starter. I have seen several different brand names for the AH gear reduction starters at a wide range of prices. Are they all derived from a Nippon Densco starter or other brand(s) of starters?

Harold

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 6:22?AM Robert Markovich via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net<mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
Also suggest Powerlite out of the UK


Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661>


On Friday, December 8, 2023, 4:26 AM, Tom McCay via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net<mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:

Hi Jim, best on the market is WOSP. Please see the following link:

https://www.ccw-tools.com/Automotive-Equipment/Wosperformance-Starter-Motors/Austin-Healey-Starters/WOSP-LMS005---Austin-Healey-3000--100-4-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-5435-599-1570-49102.aspx

Kindest Regards

Tom
Tom McCay - Director
CCW-Tools, (a division of Classic-Car-World Ltd)
32 Washingborough Road
Heighington
Lincoln
LN4 1RE
Tel: 01522 888178
Fax 0870 705 9115
e-mail: enquiries at ccw-tools.com<mailto:enquiries at ccw-tools.com>
URL: www.ccw-tools.com<http://www.ccw-tools.com>
EORI Number: GB755763005000

-----Original Message-----
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net<mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Jim Cox
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2023 9:06 PM
To: healeys at autox.team.net<mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Healeys] High Torque Starters

What does the List consider to be the best of the high torque 6-cylinder starters currently available? Price, reliability, fit and appearance?
Thanks, Jim

_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys

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From tom at ccw-tools.com  Sat Dec  9 14:57:17 2023
From: tom at ccw-tools.com (Tom McCay)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 21:57:17 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] hi torque starters
In-Reply-To: <5D1E118D-5850-4A28-8C85-BDD4EDB75C3C@yahoo.com>
References: <CAPTa0B7Hy6vZvCBUthQTtRz7udOX=WxS8i9UK+=Mq7sgpSQQgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5D1E118D-5850-4A28-8C85-BDD4EDB75C3C@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CWXP123MB421398FC5AF7D73BB0A0479EF289A@CWXP123MB4213.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

All high torque starters are pre-engage type with the pinion coming in from the front of the ring gear as opposed to the old inertia type starters where the pinion crashes in from the rear of the ring gear. The pinion has a lead on the teeth which helps the pinion engage should it impact tooth to tooth when it tries to start. I have one fitted to both a AH BJ8 and an MGA and both work like a dream.



Kindest Regards



Tom

Tom McCay - Director

CCW-Tools, (a division of Classic-Car-World Ltd)

32 Washingborough Road

Heighington

Lincoln

LN4 1RE

Tel: 01522 888178

Fax 0870 705 9115

e-mail: enquiries at ccw-tools.com

URL: www.ccw-tools.com
EORI Number: GB755763005000

________________________________
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Don via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net>
Sent: 09 December 2023 20:58
To: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
Cc: Healeys at autox.team.net <Healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] hi torque starters

I got my hi torque starter from AHSPARES, it?s a WOSP Performance brand .  For my 67 BJ-8 . Bolt on , no mods . I left the starter relay bolted to the firewall . No wires going to it . Can?t say enough how much quicker the car starts up. Should have done it years ago. Just need to make sure the oil pressure is up cause  the motor starts right up .
         Good Luck, Don
Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 9, 2023, at 9:06?AM, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Jim--

I had the same question before adding a high-torque starter years ago but no solution is necessary.  It simply works!

Best--Michael Oritt

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 10:37?PM healeymanjim <healeymanjim at hansencc.net<mailto:healeymanjim at hansencc.net>> wrote:
i was probably out to lunch when this question was answered but what is the solution to the fact that the ring gear is set up for the lucas starters engaging from behind the flywheel?
_______________________________________________
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From tahoehealey at hotmail.com  Sat Dec  9 15:02:32 2023
From: tahoehealey at hotmail.com (Richard Kahn)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 22:02:32 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] hi torque starters
In-Reply-To: <5D1E118D-5850-4A28-8C85-BDD4EDB75C3C@yahoo.com>
References: <CAPTa0B7Hy6vZvCBUthQTtRz7udOX=WxS8i9UK+=Mq7sgpSQQgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5D1E118D-5850-4A28-8C85-BDD4EDB75C3C@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DS7PR84MB31104FC793C00D0CEFD5FE9FA489A@DS7PR84MB3110.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

I got mine from British Car Specialist. I was able to maintain the solenoid and it's remote starter function. The only problem I encountered was destroying the clutch hydraulics which ran below the starter motor.
Bolting it in place wasn't fun but that is another story.
________________________________
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Don via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2023 12:58 PM
To: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
Cc: Healeys at autox.team.net <Healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] hi torque starters

I got my hi torque starter from AHSPARES, it?s a WOSP Performance brand .  For my 67 BJ-8 . Bolt on , no mods . I left the starter relay bolted to the firewall . No wires going to it . Can?t say enough how much quicker the car starts up. Should have done it years ago. Just need to make sure the oil pressure is up cause  the motor starts right up .
         Good Luck, Don
Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 9, 2023, at 9:06?AM, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Jim--

I had the same question before adding a high-torque starter years ago but no solution is necessary.  It simply works!

Best--Michael Oritt

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 10:37?PM healeymanjim <healeymanjim at hansencc.net<mailto:healeymanjim at hansencc.net>> wrote:
i was probably out to lunch when this question was answered but what is the solution to the fact that the ring gear is set up for the lucas starters engaging from behind the flywheel?
_______________________________________________
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From josef-eckert at t-online.de  Sun Dec 10 00:59:29 2023
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de (josef-eckert at t-online.de)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 08:59:29 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Healeys] hi torque starters
In-Reply-To: <DS7PR84MB31104FC793C00D0CEFD5FE9FA489A@DS7PR84MB3110.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <CAPTa0B7Hy6vZvCBUthQTtRz7udOX=WxS8i9UK+=Mq7sgpSQQgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5D1E118D-5850-4A28-8C85-BDD4EDB75C3C@yahoo.com>
 <DS7PR84MB31104FC793C00D0CEFD5FE9FA489A@DS7PR84MB3110.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1702195169120.768768.23c9662df892aff1384a67ebe4a83cada297cdb1@spica.telekom.de>

We are selling these gear reduction starters and here I am responsible for 
customer complains with these. I can only say, the recuction starters fail 
very often and do not recommend them anymore to my customers. Many do not 
turn after a couple of months in use, others do not move in anymore and so 
fail completely.
I have the original starter motors in my Austin-Healeys, Daimlers and 
Morris and when they are once reconditioned/repaired they work for many 
years without failiure.
They are extremely solid compared to the modern gear reduction starters. I 
repair the original starters and would never change to the modern 
alternative.
 
Josef Eckert
Germany
 
 
 
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] hi torque starters
Datum: 2023-12-10T02:10:16+0100
Von: "Richard Kahn via Healeys" <healeys at autox.team.net>
An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>, "fsufan1952 at yahoo.com" 
<fsufan1952 at yahoo.com>
 
 
 
I got mine from British Car Specialist. I was able to maintain the solenoid 
and it's remote starter function. The only problem I encountered was 
destroying the clutch hydraulics which ran below the starter motor.
 
Bolting it in place wasn't fun but that is another story.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Don via Healeys 
<healeys at autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2023 12:58 PM
To: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
Cc: Healeys at autox.team.net <Healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] hi torque starters
 
I got my hi torque starter from AHSPARES, it?s a WOSP Performance brand .  
For my 67 BJ-8 . Bolt on , no mods . I left the starter relay bolted to the 
firewall . No wires going to it . Can?t say enough how much quicker the car 
starts up. Should have done it years ago. Just need to make sure the oil 
pressure is up cause  the motor starts right up . 
         Good Luck, Don 
Sent from my iPhone
 

    On Dec 9, 2023, at 9:06?AM, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
    wrote:


     
    Jim--
     
    I had the same question before adding a high-torque starter years ago
    but no solution is necessary.  It simply works!
     
    Best--Michael Oritt
     
    On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 10:37?PM healeymanjim <
    healeymanjim at hansencc.net <mailto:healeymanjim at hansencc.net> > wrote:
      i was probably out to lunch when this question was answered but what
      is the solution to the fact that the ring gear is set up for the
      lucas starters engaging from behind the flywheel?
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From m.g.sharp at sympatico.ca  Sun Dec 10 05:46:38 2023
From: m.g.sharp at sympatico.ca (m.g.sharp at sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 07:46:38 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] hi torque starters
In-Reply-To: <1702195169120.768768.23c9662df892aff1384a67ebe4a83cada297cdb1@spica.telekom.de>
References: <CAPTa0B7Hy6vZvCBUthQTtRz7udOX=WxS8i9UK+=Mq7sgpSQQgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5D1E118D-5850-4A28-8C85-BDD4EDB75C3C@yahoo.com>
 <DS7PR84MB31104FC793C00D0CEFD5FE9FA489A@DS7PR84MB3110.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1702195169120.768768.23c9662df892aff1384a67ebe4a83cada297cdb1@spica.telekom.de>
Message-ID: <04b501da2b66$eb1c2600$c1547200$@sympatico.ca>

I echo Josef?s opinion.  I have never seen the need for a reduction motor.  The starter in my BT7 works faultlessly and I think I have only had it rebuilt once in decades of use.

 

Mirek

 

From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of josef-eckert--- via Healeys
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2023 2:59 AM
To: Richard Kahn <tahoehealey at hotmail.com>; Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>; fsufan1952 at yahoo.com
Cc: Healeys at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] hi torque starters

 

We are selling these gear reduction starters and here I am responsible for customer complains with these. I can only say, the recuction starters fail very often and do not recommend them anymore to my customers. Many do not turn after a couple of months in use, others do not move in anymore and so fail completely.

I have the original starter motors in my Austin-Healeys, Daimlers and Morris and when they are once reconditioned/repaired they work for many years without failiure.

They are extremely solid compared to the modern gear reduction starters. I repair the original starters and would never change to the modern alternative.

 

Josef Eckert

Germany

 

 

 

-----Original-Nachricht-----

Betreff: Re: [Healeys] hi torque starters

Datum: 2023-12-10T02:10:16+0100

Von: "Richard Kahn via Healeys" <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net> >

An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com> >, "fsufan1952 at yahoo.com <mailto:fsufan1952 at yahoo.com> " <fsufan1952 at yahoo.com <mailto:fsufan1952 at yahoo.com> >

 

 

 

I got mine from British Car Specialist. I was able to maintain the solenoid and it's remote starter function. The only problem I encountered was destroying the clutch hydraulics which ran below the starter motor.

 

Bolting it in place wasn't fun but that is another story.

  _____  

From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> > on behalf of Don via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net> >
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2023 12:58 PM
To: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com> >
Cc: Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>  <Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net> >
Subject: Re: [Healeys] hi torque starters 

 

I got my hi torque starter from AHSPARES, it?s a WOSP Performance brand .  For my 67 BJ-8 . Bolt on , no mods . I left the starter relay bolted to the firewall . No wires going to it . Can?t say enough how much quicker the car starts up. Should have done it years ago. Just need to make sure the oil pressure is up cause  the motor starts right up . 

         Good Luck, Don 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Dec 9, 2023, at 9:06?AM, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Jim--

 

I had the same question before adding a high-torque starter years ago but no solution is necessary.  It simply works!

 

Best--Michael Oritt

 

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 10:37?PM healeymanjim <healeymanjim at hansencc.net <mailto:healeymanjim at hansencc.net> > wrote:

i was probably out to lunch when this question was answered but what is the solution to the fact that the ring gear is set up for the lucas starters engaging from behind the flywheel?
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From stmiller96 at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 12 15:31:05 2023
From: stmiller96 at hotmail.com (S and T Miller)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 22:31:05 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] 100 block casting ID
Message-ID: <PH7P221MB10076E3B435185C808A67DF3D48EA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

I could swear there is a way to decipher the 100 block casting numbers that are just under the starter. I'm I crazy? Maybe? ?
TIA

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From healeymanjim at hansencc.net  Tue Dec 12 15:44:21 2023
From: healeymanjim at hansencc.net (=?utf-8?Q?healeymanjim?=)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 14:44:21 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] =?utf-8?q?parts?=
Message-ID: <20231212224421.58382.qmail@server278.com>

have a pedal box with pedals for sale.  bushings are pretty good and no elongated holes for pins.  $15 plus shipping.

From healeydoc at sbcglobal.net  Tue Dec 12 15:55:59 2023
From: healeydoc at sbcglobal.net (David Nock BCS)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 14:55:59 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] 100 block casting ID
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB10076E3B435185C808A67DF3D48EA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB10076E3B435185C808A67DF3D48EA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <8637C7A5A1DC40AE87BFA7728D5261F5@DavidNockHP>

If you ever figure them out I have one the will really boggle the Concours guys.

We had a 100/4 that we restored about 25 years ago the car is now in New Jersey. 
Cast on into the side of the block just above the casting numbers was the word         ? SPECIAL ?
I don?t know what it refered to,  I do not remember anything unique about the motor.



David Nock
British Car Specialists
209-948-8767
www.britishcarspecialists.com



From: S and T Miller 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2023 2:31 PM
To: healeys at autox.team.net 
Subject: [Healeys] 100 block casting ID

I could swear there is a way to decipher the 100 block casting numbers that are just under the starter. I'm I crazy? Maybe? ?
TIA

The Millers
 
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From stmiller96 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 13 15:59:30 2023
From: stmiller96 at hotmail.com (S and T Miller)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 22:59:30 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] Lucas 584 dipping mirror
Message-ID: <PH7P221MB1007FC76F4B86D2AC61500DED48DA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Anyone know why some some of these mirrors have the "Lucas" dipping tap on the top and upside down, and some on the bottom and rightside up? And it's not as simple as twisting the mounting bracket around because that doesn't work.

The only thing I could think of is that one should have a longer bracket than the other???
TIA

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From rchaskell at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 13 16:41:50 2023
From: rchaskell at earthlink.net (Bob Haskell)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:41:50 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Lucas 584 dipping mirror
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB1007FC76F4B86D2AC61500DED48DA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB1007FC76F4B86D2AC61500DED48DA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <cbdc9873-a33d-4d85-8d93-fff34c658183@earthlink.net>

Some are mounted on the dash (convertibles) and some are mounted above 
the windscreen (coupes, sedans, etc.).

Bob Haskell
Austin-Healey 3000 roadster registrar

On 12/13/23 17:59, S and T Miller wrote:
> Anyone know why some some of these mirrors have the "Lucas" dipping 
> tap on the top and upside down, and some on the bottom and rightside 
> up? And it's not as simple as twisting the mounting bracket around 
> because that doesn't work.
>
> The only thing I could think of is that one should have a longer 
> bracket than the other???
> TIA
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a 
> test drive."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Nethttp://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys  http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
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From michaelsalter at gmail.com  Wed Dec 13 16:43:22 2023
From: michaelsalter at gmail.com (Michael Salter)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:43:22 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Lucas 584 dipping mirror
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB1007FC76F4B86D2AC61500DED48DA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB1007FC76F4B86D2AC61500DED48DA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAB3i7LJMxN0fzPz1H3F_tW7+zJq_eq5mcoHzzacb3Vd+h0AuYQ@mail.gmail.com>

My guess would be that some are designed to mount at the top of the
windshield and some at the bottom.

M

On Wed., Dec. 13, 2023, 6:10 p.m. S and T Miller, <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Anyone know why some some of these mirrors have the "Lucas" dipping tap on
> the top and upside down, and some on the bottom and rightside up? And it's
> not as simple as twisting the mounting bracket around because that doesn't
> work.
>
> The only thing I could think of is that one should have a longer bracket
> than the other???
> TIA
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
> drive."
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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From p.cquinn at outlook.com  Wed Dec 13 18:15:09 2023
From: p.cquinn at outlook.com (Patrick and Caroline Quinn)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 01:15:09 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] Lucas 584 dipping mirror
In-Reply-To: <CAB3i7LJMxN0fzPz1H3F_tW7+zJq_eq5mcoHzzacb3Vd+h0AuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007FC76F4B86D2AC61500DED48DA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAB3i7LJMxN0fzPz1H3F_tW7+zJq_eq5mcoHzzacb3Vd+h0AuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OSQPR01MB6430C5532274B4E8A0E6A75E8C8CA@OSQPR01MB6430.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>

G?day

Yes that?s correct.

They were standard fitting to the 100S below the screen with the toggle at the bottom, and standard to early Jaguar saloons above the screen with the toggle at the top.

I have one on the BN3.

Hoo Roo

Patrick Quinn
Blue Mountains, Australia

From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Michael Salter
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 10:43 AM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
Cc: healeys at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Lucas 584 dipping mirror

My guess would be that some are designed to mount at the top of the windshield and some at the bottom.

M

On Wed., Dec. 13, 2023, 6:10 p.m. S and T Miller, <stmiller96 at hotmail.com<mailto:stmiller96 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Anyone know why some some of these mirrors have the "Lucas" dipping tap on the top and upside down, and some on the bottom and rightside up? And it's not as simple as twisting the mounting bracket around because that doesn't work.

The only thing I could think of is that one should have a longer bracket than the other???
TIA

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
_______________________________________________
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From stmiller96 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 14 05:19:23 2023
From: stmiller96 at hotmail.com (S and T Miller)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:19:23 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] Lucas 584 dipping mirror
In-Reply-To: <cbdc9873-a33d-4d85-8d93-fff34c658183@earthlink.net>
References: <PH7P221MB1007FC76F4B86D2AC61500DED48DA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <cbdc9873-a33d-4d85-8d93-fff34c658183@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <PH7P221MB1007DDD98078690CDC9B113BD48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Simple enough explanation.  I have the #103 mount, but I found a longer one with a curve in my mirror parts bin that I think may work perfectly.  I also noticed the #103 has a smaller distance between the dash mount holes. So it wouldn't have fit in an AH anyways. Thank you for the reply. Fingers crossed.



The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
________________________________
From: Bob Haskell <rchaskell at earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2023 6:41 PM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>; healeys at autox.team.net <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Lucas 584 dipping mirror


Some are mounted on the dash (convertibles) and some are mounted above the windscreen (coupes, sedans, etc.).

Bob Haskell
Austin-Healey 3000 roadster registrar

On 12/13/23 17:59, S and T Miller wrote:
Anyone know why some some of these mirrors have the "Lucas" dipping tap on the top and upside down, and some on the bottom and rightside up? And it's not as simple as twisting the mounting bracket around because that doesn't work.

The only thing I could think of is that one should have a longer bracket than the other???
TIA

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."



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From stmiller96 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 14 09:15:40 2023
From: stmiller96 at hotmail.com (S and T Miller)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 16:15:40 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Message-ID: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.

It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.

What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.

I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.

The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide.

Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?

I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?

With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.


The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Dec 14 09:59:06 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 08:59:06 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>

Excellent report, thank you.

I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since 
I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only 
point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original 
as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that 
was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, 
while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be 
new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).

The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes, 
it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value 
/should/ be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, 
what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? 
How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need 
the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.

Bob



On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
> If you were following it recently,? you might find my observations 
> interesting.? So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him 
> determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>
> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 
> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 
> bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock 
> towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. 
> The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were 
> replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.
>
> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays 
> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different 
> directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of 
> then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just 
> below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire 
> that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great 
> care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.? Along 
> with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the 
> firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the 
> firewall,? you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in 
> what would be a BN2 relay position.
>
> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. 
> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end 
> result.? I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared 
> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear 
> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M 
> engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was 
> replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest 
> to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M 
> power.
>
> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off 
> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows 
> some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not 
> make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M 
> bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed 
> suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the 
> boot, but that would be for someone else to decide.
>
> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,? and I simply 
> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks 
> old, it's original.? It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>
> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to 
> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 
> chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill 
> the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. 
> Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the 
> BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>
> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car 
> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is 
> straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a 
> very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years 
> of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With 
> the quality of the restoration,? it is surprising that the front frame 
> to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, 
> and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be 
> an issue.
>
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a 
> test drive."
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From healeyrik at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 08:17:56 2023
From: healeyrik at gmail.com (HealeyRick)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:17:56 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>

This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.

To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
in the lump!

Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Excellent report, thank you.
>
> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I
> have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point
> out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far
> as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat
> disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some
> major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have
> the hand scribing like my car).
>
> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value *should*
> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the
> previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you
> present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial
> asterisk alongside the page title.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>
> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>
> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
> BN2 mount.
>
> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>
> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>
> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
> someone else to decide.
>
> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>
> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try
> and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>
> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly.
> The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps
> look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all
> around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his
> belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
> drive."
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Fri Dec 15 09:45:03 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:45:03 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>

Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be 
what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' 
with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).

I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be 
somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and 
parts on a BN1 (a BN2, /maybe/). The main problem I see is an earnest 
owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, 
but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been 
conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they 
cars or rock bands).


On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that 
> caveat.? Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it 
> needed a new frame.? How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body 
> parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable 
> chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original 
> body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with 
> non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent 
> Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?? 
> Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with?new 
> chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.? If an M no longer has its 
> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an 
> M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a 
> Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. 
> Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not 
> much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be 
> non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove 
> those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve 
> cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so 
> we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
>
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>     Excellent report, thank you.
>
>     I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>     since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and
>     could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was
>     completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive
>     body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that
>     the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies
>     (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the
>     hand scribing like my car).
>
>     The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car?
>     Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its
>     value /should/ be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or
>     BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known
>     about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
>     bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>
>     Bob
>
>
>
>     On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>     If you were following it recently,? you might find my
>>     observations interesting.? So I went down to Michael's motor cars
>>     to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here
>>     is what I found.
>>
>>     It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has
>>     the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced
>>     welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket.
>>     The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and
>>     show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
>>     non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate
>>     the BN2 mount.
>>
>>     What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD
>>     relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it
>>     different directions to just make out the slight evidence of
>>     filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to
>>     reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and
>>     feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4
>>     holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make
>>     those holes seem as they never existed.? Along with that, where a
>>     BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with
>>     machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,?
>>     you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what
>>     would be a BN2 relay position.
>>
>>     I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter
>>     stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped
>>     with a deeper end result.? I took my repo engine tag along to
>>     compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/
>>     bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean
>>     that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could
>>     be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove
>>     a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>     power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>
>>     The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped
>>     off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the
>>     boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original.
>>     I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
>>     sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of
>>     the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't
>>     detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else
>>     to decide.
>>
>>     Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,? and I simply
>>     don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it
>>     looks old, it's original.? It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>
>>     I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some
>>     effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled
>>     on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an
>>     attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on
>>     the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes
>>     continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing
>>     evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>
>>     With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>     correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is
>>     straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to
>>     be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike
>>     has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions
>>     on that. With the quality of the restoration,? it is surprising
>>     that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the
>>     frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at
>>     a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>
>>
>>     The Millers
>>
>>     "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is
>>     a test drive."
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>     http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
>     Healeys at autox.team.net
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From josef-eckert at t-online.de  Fri Dec 15 11:31:56 2023
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de (josef-eckert at t-online.de)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 19:31:56 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>

What makes a 100M? 
Very good question and not easy to answer.

In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, 
is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and 
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a 
conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a 
Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me 
the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more 
horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.

Josef Eckert
Germany

 
 
 
 
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
 
 
 
Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be 
what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with 
aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).

I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be 
somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and 
parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner 
may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an 
owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently 
forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock 
bands).


On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:

    This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
    caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it
    needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body
    parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis
    plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body
    parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with
    non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent
    Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?  Some
    pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis
    and still bring big money at auction. 
     
    To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
    original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an
    M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a
    Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor.
    Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not
    much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be
    non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove
    those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve
    cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so
    we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
     
    Happy Healeydays,
    Rick Neville

    On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
    <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> > wrote:
      Excellent report, thank you.

      I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
      since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and
      could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was
      completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body
      work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
      Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the
      carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand
      scribing like my car).

      The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car?
      Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value 
      should be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
      what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this
      car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would
      need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.

      Bob



      On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:

          If you were following it recently,  you might find my
          observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars
          to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here
          is what I found.
           
          It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has
          the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced
          welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket.
          The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and
          show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
          non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate
          the BN2 mount. 
           
          What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD
          relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it
          different directions to just make out the slight evidence of
          filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to
          reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and
          feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4
          holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make
          those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a
          BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with
          machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall, 
          you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what
          would be a BN2 relay position. 
           
          I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter
          stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped
          with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to
          compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/
          bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean
          that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could
          be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove
          a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
          power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power. 
           
          The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped
          off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the
          boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original.
          I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
          sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of
          the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't
          detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else
          to decide. 
           
          Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply
          don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it
          looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age,
          so?
           
          I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some
          effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled
          on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an
          attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on
          the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes
          continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing
          evidence of a BN1 chassis? 
           
          With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
          correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is
          straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to
          be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike
          has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions
          on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising
          that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the
          frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at
          a popular vote car would not be an issue. 
           
          The Millers
           
          "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is
          a test drive."

      _______________________________________________
      Support Team.Net<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
      Suggested annual donation  $12.75

      Archive:<http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys>
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From hypercubic at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 15 13:51:21 2023
From: hypercubic at yahoo.co.uk (mike brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 20:51:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] BN2 hood (soft-top)
References: <504029297.3120666.1702673481811.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <504029297.3120666.1702673481811@mail.yahoo.com>

I'm installing a new soft top on my BN2. I've just finished tidying up the frame which had some loose pivots and worn pivot holes. The frame is now in good shape and today I trial fitted it in the BN2. It fits very well when it's up, pulling down evenly onto the windscreen top. However, when it's folded up behind the seats,? it packs up too far forward on the left hand side, by about 1/2 an inch. On investigation, I can see that the cause is that the bracket that holds the frame to? the side wall is 1/2" further forward on the left side than the one on the right side. My first thought was to shift the left hand bracket back 1/2 an inch, but I guess this would mess up the fit on the windscreen.
Has anyone else had this problem, and if so what is the fix? I want to sort this out before I fit the soft top obviously.?
Thanks for any help.
Mike BScotland
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
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From cnaarndt at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 15:13:23 2023
From: cnaarndt at gmail.com (Curtis Arndt)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:13:23 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
Message-ID: <CAJKrNeTC2Jp_kqtU9nVbmHcFp9KjmxKFOSbHx94VeHsuRP87kA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All

With regard to this statement... "To me, what makes an M an M is the
motor.  If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it
has lost its character as an M." I respectfully disagree.

I have known several 100Ms where the engine was completely shot, needing
almost everything new internally, e.g.,. New head and valve train, new
crank, rods, pistons and camshaft. original carburetors often go missing...
What's left?

Conversely, the car had all eight of its number body panels. To me this is
more important than the engine.

Regarding the frame and chassis, Colin Rule of Sydney [an absolute master
panel beater and body man] worked with Kilmartin to make up COMPLETE frame
and chassis assemblies. These were absolutely correct, spot-on
reproductions down to the mm and needing nothing but to hang the body
panels. I am hoping that whoever buys Kilmartin, that these BN1 and BN2
chassis continue to be made. At the time back in 2019 they were around $20K
Australian! Shipping extra of course

Cheers,

Curt Arndt

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:45?AM josef-eckert--- via Healeys <
healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:

> What makes a 100M?
> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>
> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>
> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>
> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
> bands).
>
>
> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
> Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
> frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
> in the lump!
>
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>
>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I
>> have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point
>> out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far
>> as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat
>> disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some
>> major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have
>> the hand scribing like my car).
>>
>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value *should*
>> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the
>> previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you
>> present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial
>> asterisk alongside the page title.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>
>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>
>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>> BN2 mount.
>>
>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>
>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>
>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>> someone else to decide.
>>
>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>
>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>
>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly.
>> The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps
>> look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all
>> around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his
>> belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>
>> The Millers
>>
>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>> drive."
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>
>> ?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
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From michaelsalter at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 15:16:06 2023
From: michaelsalter at gmail.com (Michael Salter)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:16:06 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
Message-ID: <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,  say
like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
consider them be very special.
I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
to see the "Registry" fade away.
Just my opinion.

M

On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:

> What makes a 100M?
> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>
> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>
> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>
> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
> bands).
>
>
> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
> Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
> frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
> in the lump!
>
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>
>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I
>> have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point
>> out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far
>> as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat
>> disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some
>> major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have
>> the hand scribing like my car).
>>
>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value *should*
>> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the
>> previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you
>> present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial
>> asterisk alongside the page title.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>
>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>
>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>> BN2 mount.
>>
>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>
>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>
>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>> someone else to decide.
>>
>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>
>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>
>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly.
>> The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps
>> look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all
>> around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his
>> belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>
>> The Millers
>>
>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>> drive."
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>
>> ?
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Fri Dec 15 22:36:33 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 21:36:33 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>

The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch 
extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in 
power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and 
pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, 
but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?

I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance 
at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as 
opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the 
modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that 
ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When 
customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a 
kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on 
Monday?').

I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a 
significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 
cars only 3,000 remain).

bs


On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't 
> that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
> If the "M" designation involved significant performance 
> modifications,? say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily 
> copied, then I would consider them be very special.
> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be 
> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
> Just my opinion.
>
> M
>
> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, 
> <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>     What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In
>     my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price
>     category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car
>     that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M
>     is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But
>     this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major
>     modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the
>     front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be
>     simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an
>     original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to
>     admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for
>     what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>     horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an
>     Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>
>     -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
>     Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
>     Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>
>     Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>
>     An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>
>     Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which
>     may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a
>     'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>
>     I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but
>     I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging
>     an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, /maybe/). The main problem I
>     see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit')
>     with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the
>     'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on
>     'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>
>
>     On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
>         This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with
>         that caveat.? Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was
>         so bad it needed a new frame.? How hard would it be to
>         transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along
>         with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems
>         to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>         surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original
>         engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's
>         Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M??
>         Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted
>         with?new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>         To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.? If an M no longer
>         has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its
>         character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood.
>         It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was
>         replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial
>         number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore.
>         The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>         distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an
>         original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover,
>         remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so
>         we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
>         Happy Healeydays,
>         Rick Neville
>
>         On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell
>         <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>             Excellent report, thank you.
>
>             I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to
>             comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar
>             with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious
>             differences with my car (which was completely original as
>             far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One
>             thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
>             Registry certified this car, while noting some major
>             anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
>             didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>
>             The other thing that interested me is, how do you value
>             this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good
>             driver but, IMO, its value /should/ be less than a
>             comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did
>             the previous owner know, or should have known about this
>             car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
>             bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the
>             page title.
>
>             Bob
>
>
>
>             On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>
>                 If you were following it recently,? you might find my
>                 observations interesting.? So I went down to Michael's
>                 motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed
>                 has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>                 It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
>                 pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount
>                 the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the
>                 later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock
>                 towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the
>                 factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
>                 non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to
>                 accommodate the BN2 mount.
>                 What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has
>                 two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining
>                 a light it different directions to just make out the
>                 slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>                 relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just
>                 below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and
>                 welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I
>                 can tell you someone took great care to try and make
>                 those holes seem as they never existed.? Along with
>                 that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay
>                 attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed
>                 into welded captive nuts on the firewall,? you can see
>                 plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would
>                 be a BN2 relay position.
>                 I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the
>                 lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/
>                 letters stamped with a deeper end result.? I took my
>                 repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>                 identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN
>                 plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the
>                 engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could
>                 be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced.
>                 Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can
>                 attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated
>                 that it indeed has that M power.
>                 The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket
>                 being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely
>                 you can see that the boot shows some previous
>                 age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not
>                 make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
>                 sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the
>                 underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>                 prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but
>                 that would be for someone else to decide.
>                 Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,?
>                 and I simply don't have that experience to know. I
>                 have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.? It
>                 does indeed look to have some age, so?
>                 I feel at some point in this car's life someone went
>                 to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M
>                 parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
>                 interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill
>                 the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the
>                 frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the
>                 holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>                 were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>                 With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent
>                 the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint
>                 is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good.
>                 Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>                 all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years
>                 of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his
>                 opinions on that. With the quality of the
>                 restoration,? it is surprising that the front frame to
>                 shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome
>                 looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a
>                 popular vote car would not be an issue.
>                 The Millers
>
>                 "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an
>                 antique car is a test drive."
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>             Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>
>             Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>             http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
>             Healeys at autox.team.net
>             http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
>             Unsubscribe/Manage:
>             http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>
>     ?
>     _______________________________________________
>     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>     http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
>     Healeys at autox.team.net
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From healeyrik at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 02:29:22 2023
From: healeyrik at gmail.com (HealeyRick)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 04:29:22 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Fwd:  Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAGfzsZeWtZqBCny4vMn5jbddH0sat3+ZZixEv64JSc_XnXj3xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfzsZeWtZqBCny4vMn5jbddH0sat3+ZZixEv64JSc_XnXj3xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfzsZdMeDsRpXWxJ_E0a6RF6d1LUrVPiFz8LjjH9krh5ASiEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Michael,

I know Bill Meade was trying to include the Registry along with the sale of
his M., but the new owner wasn't interested. IMHO, more of an ass ache than
an asset. Getting someone to take it on might be a problem, but people were
able to identify factory Ms before the registry and will be able to do so
in the future if the registry fades away

Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:16?PM Michael Salter <michaelsalter at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
> consider them be very special.
> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
> to see the "Registry" fade away.
> Just my opinion.
>
> M
>
> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> What makes a 100M?
>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>
>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>
>> Josef Eckert
>> Germany
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>
>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>
>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>
>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>
>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>
>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>> bands).
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>
>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
>> Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
>> frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>
>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>> in the lump!
>>
>> Happy Healeydays,
>> Rick Neville
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>
>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since
>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as
>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while
>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>
>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How
>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>
>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>> BN2 mount.
>>>
>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>
>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>
>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>> someone else to decide.
>>>
>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>>> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>
>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>
>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>
>>> The Millers
>>>
>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>>> drive."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>
>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>
>>> ?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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From michael.oritt at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 07:46:42 2023
From: michael.oritt at gmail.com (Michael Oritt)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 09:46:42 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>

Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the
100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
collectibility.

Best--Michael Oritt

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>
> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>
> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant
> price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
> remain).
>
> bs
>
>
> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>
> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
> consider them be very special.
> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
> to see the "Registry" fade away.
> Just my opinion.
>
> M
>
> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> What makes a 100M?
>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>
>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>
>> Josef Eckert
>> Germany
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>
>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>
>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>
>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>
>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>
>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>> bands).
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>
>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
>> Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
>> frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>
>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>> in the lump!
>>
>> Happy Healeydays,
>> Rick Neville
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>
>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since
>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as
>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while
>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>
>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How
>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>
>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>> BN2 mount.
>>>
>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>
>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>
>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>> someone else to decide.
>>>
>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>>> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>
>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>
>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>
>>> The Millers
>>>
>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>>> drive."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>
>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>
>>> ?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michaelsalter at gmail.com
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Dec 16 08:30:05 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 07:30:05 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>

I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that 
aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for 
selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people 
to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). 
Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the 
lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it 
and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for 
their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a 
brilliant marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between 
lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and 
higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and plugged it. 
History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge the market; 
probably why he made overdrive an option from the get-go, for the 
wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that well, was the 
TR2 a contemporary of the 100?

How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by 
a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me 
for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a 
run-down of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the 
same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' 
cars going across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 
50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the 
interest and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty 
savage and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect 
carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry 
thing).

 From the late, great Gary Anderson:

https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf


On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car 
> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing?ploy to get rid of what 
> might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable?inventory of late 
> production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M 
> upgrade.? If so it was probably never his intention nor in his 
> comprehension to produce?what has ironically become a very special 
> Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>     The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>     extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase
>     in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a
>     camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to
>     pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat
>     and do the mods in situ)?
>
>     I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
>     appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff
>     in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly
>     line. Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as
>     made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th
>     (or 14th) overall. When customers started asking for the same
>     modifications DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone
>     remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>
>     I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>     significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented
>     640 cars only 3,000 remain).
>
>     bs
>
>
>     On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>     I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there
>>     isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>     If the "M" designation involved significant performance
>>     modifications,? say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be
>>     easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
>>     I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>     surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>     Just my opinion.
>>
>>     M
>>
>>     On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys,
>>     <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>         What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>         In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price
>>         category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a
>>         car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily
>>         modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no
>>         longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis
>>         would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>         conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a
>>         Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>         Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original
>>         Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit,
>>         for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for
>>         what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>         horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like
>>         an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>
>>         -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>
>>         Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>
>>         Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>
>>         Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>
>>         An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>
>>         Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,'
>>         which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you
>>         can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam,
>>         alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>
>>         I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis,
>>         but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much
>>         hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, /maybe/). The
>>         main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion
>>         (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two
>>         down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>         forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars
>>         or rock bands).
>>
>>
>>         On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>
>>             This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it
>>             with that caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M
>>             that was so bad it needed a new frame.? How hard would it
>>             be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1
>>             chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The
>>             100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body
>>             parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars
>>             with non-original engines have been registered. I'm
>>             pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry.
>>             So is the BaT car still an M?? Some pretty valuable race
>>             cars have been crashed and fitted with?new chassis and
>>             still bring big money at auction.
>>             To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.? If an M no
>>             longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it
>>             has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2
>>             with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger
>>             blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor.
>>             Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody,
>>             but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with
>>             what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor
>>             caused me concern. Who would remove those from an
>>             original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve
>>             cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the
>>             pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in
>>             the lump!
>>             Happy Healeydays,
>>             Rick Neville
>>
>>             On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell
>>             <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>                 Excellent report, thank you.
>>
>>                 I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to
>>                 comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not
>>                 familiar with BN1 differences and could only point
>>                 out obvious differences with my car (which was
>>                 completely original as far as I can tell, except for
>>                 extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat
>>                 disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this
>>                 car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs,
>>                 for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the
>>                 hand scribing like my car).
>>
>>                 The other thing that interested me is, how do you
>>                 value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a
>>                 good driver but, IMO, its value /should/ be less than
>>                 a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what
>>                 did the previous owner know, or should have known
>>                 about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a
>>                 BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial
>>                 asterisk alongside the page title.
>>
>>                 Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>                 On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>
>>                     If you were following it recently,? you might
>>                     find my observations interesting.? So I went down
>>                     to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if
>>                     the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I
>>                     found.
>>                     It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
>>                     pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame
>>                     mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket,
>>                     as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The
>>                     front shock towers have no evidence of being
>>                     replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox
>>                     mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it
>>                     were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.
>>                     What I found most interesting is that where a BN1
>>                     has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took
>>                     shining a light it different directions to just
>>                     make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4
>>                     of then for the two relays). And I was able to
>>                     reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>                     my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire
>>                     that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell
>>                     you someone took great care to try and make those
>>                     holes seem as they never existed.? Along with
>>                     that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay
>>                     attached to the firewall with machine screws
>>                     screwed into welded captive nuts on the
>>                     firewall,? you can see plain sheet screws were
>>                     used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay
>>                     position.
>>                     I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of
>>                     the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the
>>                     numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>                     result.? I took my repo engine tag along to
>>                     compare, and they appeared identical in the
>>                     stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate
>>                     appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the
>>                     engine isn't the correct M engine, because there
>>                     could be many reasons why the engine tag was
>>                     replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared
>>                     to a 100M can attest to the difference in power,
>>                     and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>                     The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay
>>                     bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you
>>                     look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>                     previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original.
>>                     I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet
>>                     number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I
>>                     will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed
>>                     suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't
>>                     detect any age like the boot, but that would be
>>                     for someone else to decide.
>>                     Mike had asked me if the cold air box was
>>                     original,? and I simply don't have that
>>                     experience to know. I have anyways heard if it
>>                     looks old, it's original.? It does indeed look to
>>                     have some age, so?
>>                     I feel at some point in this car's life someone
>>                     went to some effort to try and conceal that these
>>                     100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>                     Another interesting note is that there was an
>>                     attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis
>>                     plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the
>>                     person didn't realize that the holes continued
>>                     over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing
>>                     evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>                     With all that said, Mike is simply trying to
>>                     represent the car correctly. The car is a very
>>                     nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>                     and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and
>>                     looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't
>>                     drive the car, but Mike has years of experience
>>                     under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on
>>                     that. With the quality of the restoration,? it is
>>                     surprising that the front frame to shroud
>>                     brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome
>>                     looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies
>>                     at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>                     The Millers
>>
>>                     "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an
>>                     antique car is a test drive."
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>                 Suggested annual donation? $12.75
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>>                 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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From cnaarndt at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 09:55:35 2023
From: cnaarndt at gmail.com (Curtis Arndt)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 08:55:35 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAJKrNeQKkBZHbAqFYsFz4ZYRb3njwtRkdrnATx-Eni2s7=_XPg@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over the
registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing so came
up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high for
something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work involved.

Cheers,

Curt

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:49?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a
> 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
> tired of doing the registry thing).
>
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
>
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
> collectibility.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>
>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant
>> price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
>> remain).
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>
>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>> consider them be very special.
>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
>> to see the "Registry" fade away.
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> M
>>
>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What makes a 100M?
>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>
>>> Josef Eckert
>>> Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>> bands).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>> in the lump!
>>>
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>
>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since
>>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as
>>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while
>>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
>>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>
>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How
>>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>
>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>
>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>
>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>
>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
>>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>>>> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>
>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>
>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The Millers
>>>>
>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>>>> drive."
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
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>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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From vintage_roadster_restoration at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 16 10:25:25 2023
From: vintage_roadster_restoration at hotmail.com (Jean Caron)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:25:25 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] Fwd:  Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAGfzsZdMeDsRpXWxJ_E0a6RF6d1LUrVPiFz8LjjH9krh5ASiEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfzsZeWtZqBCny4vMn5jbddH0sat3+ZZixEv64JSc_XnXj3xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfzsZdMeDsRpXWxJ_E0a6RF6d1LUrVPiFz8LjjH9krh5ASiEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DS7PR11MB60785261A20922C7A9C8B92CD192A@DS7PR11MB6078.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Rick,
No doubt that individuals were able to identify an "M" before and they will continue to do so in the future. What the Worldwide 100M Registry is doing is provide a potential buyer, the means to identify with a high degree of certainty that a given car is a genuine 100M or one that has been dealer optioned or modified later one. The Registry has also been able to, in some cases, prevent a possible purchaser to be defrauded by an unscrupulous seller claiming that the car on offer was a genuine 100M.
Given the level of interest to factory 100M offered for sale from time to time on Bring-a-Trailer, I would definitely say that the genuine factory still command a very high level of interest and so far, command an extra premium over a regular 100.
As far as the Worldwide 100M Registry is concerned, it will be continued, an announcement will be forthcoming soon.

Jean
________________________________
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
Sent: December 16, 2023 9:29 AM
To: Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Healeys] Fwd: Recent 100M on BAT





Hi Michael,

I know Bill Meade was trying to include the Registry along with the sale of his M., but the new owner wasn't interested. IMHO, more of an ass ache than an asset. Getting someone to take it on might be a problem, but people were able to identify factory Ms before the registry and will be able to do so in the future if the registry fades away

Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville

[https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif]<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>  Virus-free.www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:16?PM Michael Salter <michaelsalter at gmail.com<mailto:michaelsalter at gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,  say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
Just my opinion.

M

On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net<mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:

What makes a 100M?
Very good question and not easy to answer.

In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.

Josef Eckert
Germany









-----Original-Nachricht-----

Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT

Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100

Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>

An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com<mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>







Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).

I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).


On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.

To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!

Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
Excellent report, thank you.

I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).

The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value should be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.

Bob



On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.

It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.

What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.

I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.

The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide.

Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?

I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?

With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From michael.oritt at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 10:27:48 2023
From: michael.oritt at gmail.com (Michael Oritt)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 12:27:48 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAJKrNeQKkBZHbAqFYsFz4ZYRb3njwtRkdrnATx-Eni2s7=_XPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
 <CAJKrNeQKkBZHbAqFYsFz4ZYRb3njwtRkdrnATx-Eni2s7=_XPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTa0B7bAD6m8hKEmDa3Ds=tCmSL9hdJfO4j4CRFmoSjOB3UaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Curt--

No criticism of Bill Meade intended but I did not know that he was seeking
to *sell* the registry as opposed to turning it over to someone, nor did I
ever consider a registry to be a saleable item and always thought them to
be more a labor of love".

After making sure that my hand is suitably lowered I wonder what would
happen were there no price attached to the acquisition of it and/or the
data?

Best--Michael Oritt

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:55?AM Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over
> the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing so
> came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high for
> something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work involved.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Curt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:49?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>
>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>
>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>
>>
>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>> collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>
>>> bs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>> consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What makes a 100M?
>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>
>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>> Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>> bands).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>
>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>> in the lump!
>>>>
>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply
>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>> it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>> _______________________________________________
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From healeyrik at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 10:31:42 2023
From: healeyrik at gmail.com (HealeyRick)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 12:31:42 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAGfzsZd1qWXCocMmwqwh9uBt=Vzb_UZVKyn4_zoY=g-OKWN4KA@mail.gmail.com>

Bob,

     As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the *Healey
Marque *this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I
think your comment  " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
distributor slide "  raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to
be presented to be certified.
https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
<https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf>   But it
seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory
with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine
number.  And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't
there, Bill says in the article  "If some of these items are missing, let
the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
enough ID points are present."  So my impression, which I'll try to verify
with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is
the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it
had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the
original parts an M would have come with.
      I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with
an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be
worth if not for the "savage" comments.

Happy Healeydays
Rick Neville

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a
> 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
> tired of doing the registry thing).
>
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
>
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
> collectibility.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>
>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant
>> price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
>> remain).
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>
>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>> consider them be very special.
>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
>> to see the "Registry" fade away.
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> M
>>
>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What makes a 100M?
>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>
>>> Josef Eckert
>>> Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>> bands).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>> in the lump!
>>>
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>
>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since
>>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as
>>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while
>>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
>>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>
>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How
>>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>
>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>
>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>
>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>
>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
>>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>>>> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>
>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>
>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The Millers
>>>>
>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>>>> drive."
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>>>>
>>>> ?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
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>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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> _______________________________________________
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From gradea1 at charter.net  Sat Dec 16 10:35:46 2023
From: gradea1 at charter.net (Hank Leach)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:35:46 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] Fwd:  Recent 100M on BAT
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From healeyrik at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 10:40:58 2023
From: healeyrik at gmail.com (HealeyRick)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 12:40:58 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Fwd: Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <DS7PR11MB60785261A20922C7A9C8B92CD192A@DS7PR11MB6078.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <DS7PR11MB60785261A20922C7A9C8B92CD192A@DS7PR11MB6078.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfzsZf2RFN9Qmf5iwCfVWWe8f9u3BiG6+XXrb_bMFsNrQDQLg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jean,

I'm really glad to hear the Registry will continue. As you point out it
serves a valuable service and has helped ferret out some bogus cars.

Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM Jean Caron <
vintage_roadster_restoration at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Rick,
> No doubt that individuals were able to identify an "M" before and they
> will continue to do so in the future. What the Worldwide 100M Registry is
> doing is provide a potential buyer, the means to identify with a high
> degree of certainty that a given car is a genuine 100M or one that has been
> dealer optioned or modified later one. The Registry has also been able to,
> in some cases, prevent a possible purchaser to be defrauded by an
> unscrupulous seller claiming that the car on offer was a genuine 100M.
> Given the level of interest to factory 100M offered for sale from time to
> time on Bring-a-Trailer, I would definitely say that the genuine factory
> still command a very high level of interest and so far, command an extra
> premium over a regular 100.
> As far as the Worldwide 100M Registry is concerned, it will be continued,
> an announcement will be forthcoming soon.
>
> Jean
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of HealeyRick <
> healeyrik at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* December 16, 2023 9:29 AM
> *To:* Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [Healeys] Fwd: Recent 100M on BAT
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I know Bill Meade was trying to include the Registry along with the sale
> of his M., but the new owner wasn't interested. IMHO, more of an ass ache
> than an asset. Getting someone to take it on might be a problem, but people
> were able to identify factory Ms before the registry and will be able to do
> so in the future if the registry fades away
>
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#m_-4781314674023849355_x_m_-6362713109296590600_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:16?PM Michael Salter <michaelsalter at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
> consider them be very special.
> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
> to see the "Registry" fade away.
> Just my opinion.
>
> M
>
> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> What makes a 100M?
> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>
> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>
> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>
> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
> bands).
>
>
> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
> Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
> frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
> in the lump!
>
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Excellent report, thank you.
>
> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I
> have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point
> out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far
> as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat
> disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some
> major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have
> the hand scribing like my car).
>
> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value *should*
> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the
> previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you
> present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial
> asterisk alongside the page title.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>
> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>
> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
> BN2 mount.
>
> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>
> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>
> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
> someone else to decide.
>
> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>
> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try
> and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>
> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly.
> The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps
> look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all
> around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his
> belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
> drive."
>
> _______________________________________________
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From josef-eckert at t-online.de  Sat Dec 16 11:14:59 2023
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de (josef-eckert at t-online.de)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 19:14:59 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1702750499966.1210328.d27e55275734a5d8ba871b7b70956e5e88a30f60@spica.telekom.de>

As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and 
comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the 
pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on 
motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and 
the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a 
100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey 
from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here. 
I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he 
died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back 
to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a 
LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le 
Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher 
than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays 
that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as 
I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in 
demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want 
these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something 
else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that 
they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also 
out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which 
are definitely the better cars compared.
Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful 
events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago 
are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are 
hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those 
who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really 
inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, 
but not inviting.
 
Josef Eckert
Germany
 
 
 
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
 
 
 
I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that 
aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling 
the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure 
out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the 
strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the 
Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke 
Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' 
rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and 
salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're 
talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more 
expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the 
US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the 
get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that 
well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?

How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a 
'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for 
it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down 
of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with 
other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going 
across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over 
comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you 
watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was 
surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was 
tired of doing the registry thing).

>From the late, great Gary Anderson:

<https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf>



On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:

    Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
    (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what
    might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late
    production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M
    upgrade.  If so it was probably never his intention nor in his
    comprehension to produce what has ironically become a very special
    Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
     
    Best--Michael Oritt

    On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
    <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> > wrote:
      The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
      extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
      power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft
      and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the
      engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the
      mods in situ)?

      I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
      appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in
      attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line.
      Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to
      the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th)
      overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH
      first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on
      Sunday, sell on Monday?').

      I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
      significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640
      cars only 3,000 remain).

      bs


      On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:

          I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there
          isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100. 
          If the "M" designation involved significant performance
          modifications,  say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be
          easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
          I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
          surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
          Just my opinion. 
           
          M

          On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
          healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net> > wrote:

            What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany 

             
             
             
             
            -----Original-Nachricht-----
            Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
            Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
            Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net
            <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> >
            An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com
            <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com> >
             
             
             
            Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,'
            which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can
            build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy
            head, SBC, etc.).

            I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis,
            but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much
            hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main
            problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka
            'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down
            the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm
            not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).


            On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:

                This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with
                that caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that
                was so bad it needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to
                transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis
                along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
                Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts
                and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with
                non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty
                certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the
                BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have
                been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring
                big money at auction. 
                 
                To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no
                longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has
                lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a
                louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its
                motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
                got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not
                much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to
                be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern.
                Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M
                sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a
                dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is
                still a 100M cam in the lump!
                 
                Happy Healeydays,
                Rick Neville

                On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <
                bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> > wrote:
                  Excellent report, thank you.

                  I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to
                  comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar
                  with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious
                  differences with my car (which was completely original as
                  far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One
                  thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
                  Registry certified this car, while noting some major
                  anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
                  didn't have the hand scribing like my car).

                  The other thing that interested me is, how do you value
                  this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good
                  driver but, IMO, its value should be less than a
                  comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did
                  the previous owner know, or should have known about this
                  car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
                  bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside
                  the page title.

                  Bob



                  On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:

                      If you were following it recently,  you might find my
                      observations interesting.  So I went down to
                      Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the
                      100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
                       
                      It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
                      pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame
                      mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
                      the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front
                      shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and
                      show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
                      non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to
                      accommodate the BN2 mount. 
                       
                      What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has
                      two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining
                      a light it different directions to just make out the
                      slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the
                      two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent
                      just below that area with my fingers and feel the
                      welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4
                      holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try
                      and make those holes seem as they never existed. 
                      Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD
                      relay attached to the firewall with machine screws
                      screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall, 
                      you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it
                      in what would be a BN2 relay position. 
                       
                      I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the
                      lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/
                      letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my
                      repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
                      identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and
                      VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that
                      the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there
                      could be many reasons why the engine tag was
                      replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a
                      100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike
                      stated that it indeed has that M power. 
                       
                      The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket
                      being swapped off another lid, and if you look
                      closely you can see that the boot shows some previous
                      age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not
                      make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
                      sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the
                      underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
                      prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot,
                      but that would be for someone else to decide. 
                       
                      Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, 
                      and I simply don't have that experience to know. I
                      have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original. 
                      It does indeed look to have some age, so?
                       
                      I feel at some point in this car's life someone went
                      to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M
                      parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
                      interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill
                      the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the
                      frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that
                      the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought
                      they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis? 
                       
                      With all that said, Mike is simply trying to
                      represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice
                      car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps
                      look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a
                      very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but
                      Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd
                      trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
                      restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame
                      to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame.
                      Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
                      trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
                      
                       
                      The Millers
                       
                      "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an
                      antique car is a test drive."

                  _______________________________________________
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From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Dec 16 13:56:44 2023
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAJKrNeQKkBZHbAqFYsFz4ZYRb3njwtRkdrnATx-Eni2s7=_XPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
 <CAJKrNeQKkBZHbAqFYsFz4ZYRb3njwtRkdrnATx-Eni2s7=_XPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1a3f16f8-daaf-456b-ba93-63c1ebc5d453@bradakis.com>

On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
> Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over 
> the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing 
> so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high 
> for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work involved.

Try running Team Net for 30+ years!

mjb.



From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Dec 16 17:43:03 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <CAGfzsZd1qWXCocMmwqwh9uBt=Vzb_UZVKyn4_zoY=g-OKWN4KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZd1qWXCocMmwqwh9uBt=Vzb_UZVKyn4_zoY=g-OKWN4KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <353ca87f-b0eb-4866-b342-0a42aa4cab85@comcast.net>

Rick,

Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing 
for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having 
a replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no 
issues with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) 
reduced price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he 
knows what s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.

Bob


On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
> Bob,
>
> ? ? ?As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the 
> /Healey Marque /this 100M discussion has been really helpful and 
> interesting. I think your comment? " I was surprised Bill let the 
> incorrect carbs and distributor slide "? raises a great question of 
> what exactly is the 100M certificate certifying? Bill Meade has 
> written an article on what needs to be presented to be certified. 
> https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf 
> <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf> ?But 
> it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the 
> factory with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures 
> of the engine number.? And even if all the body parts, carbs, and 
> distributor aren't there, Bill says in the article? "If some of these 
> items are missing, let the Registry know. It normally does not prevent 
> registration provided enough ID points are present."? So my 
> impression, which I'll try to verify with Bill, is the certification 
> is focused on the question whether this is the car that left the 
> factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it had a louvered 
> hood and not so much on whether it still has all the original parts an 
> M would have come with.
> ? ? ? I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and 
> probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies 
> with an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it 
> would be worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>
> Happy Healeydays
> Rick Neville
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>     I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to
>     mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling
>     made a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army
>     of marketing people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course,
>     and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking,
>     IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the Bonneville
>     cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>     Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the
>     Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant
>     marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between
>     lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and
>     Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and
>     plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge
>     the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>     get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph
>     history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
>     How many times have you been asked what your Healey is
>     worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied
>     'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems
>     genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary
>     market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with other
>     marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>     across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100%
>     premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest
>     and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage
>     and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect
>     carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the
>     registry thing).
>
>     From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
>     https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
>     On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>     Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a
>>     new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing?ploy to get
>>     rid of what might otherwise have become a
>>     less-than-desirable?inventory of late production 100's by
>>     outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.? If so it
>>     was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to
>>     produce?what has ironically become a very special Healey second
>>     only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>>
>>     Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>>     On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell
>>     <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>         The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>         extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22%
>>         increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do
>>         you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics
>>         were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff
>>         weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>>         I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
>>         appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or
>>         Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin
>>         assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for the most
>>         part, the same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52
>>         ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When customers
>>         started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a
>>         kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday,
>>         sell on Monday?').
>>
>>         I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>         significant price premium (hence why of the original,
>>         documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain).
>>
>>         bs
>>
>>
>>         On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>         I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there
>>>         isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any
>>>         100.
>>>         If the "M" designation involved significant performance
>>>         modifications,? say like an "M" series BMW, which could not
>>>         be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
>>>         I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not
>>>         be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>>         Just my opinion.
>>>
>>>         M
>>>
>>>         On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via
>>>         Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>             What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to
>>>             answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially
>>>             as the price category is significantly higher than the
>>>             normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its
>>>             value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's
>>>             a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my
>>>             personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major
>>>             modification for me, as would a conversion to disc
>>>             brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber
>>>             carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>             Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original
>>>             Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to
>>>             admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far
>>>             exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model
>>>             with a little more horsepower, but not anything
>>>             particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG
>>>             Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>>
>>>             -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>
>>>             Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>
>>>             Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>
>>>             Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>
>>>             An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>             Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans
>>>             Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was.
>>>             Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>>             aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>>             I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100
>>>             chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that,
>>>             but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a
>>>             BN2, /maybe/). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>             owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with
>>>             full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the
>>>             'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not
>>>             all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>>>
>>>
>>>             On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>>                 This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take
>>>                 it with that caveat.? Let's say one had a rusty
>>>                 factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.?
>>>                 How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts
>>>                 over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the
>>>                 oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry
>>>                 seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and
>>>                 cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with
>>>                 non-original engines have been registered. I'm
>>>                 pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the
>>>                 registry. So is the BaT car still an M?? Some pretty
>>>                 valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted
>>>                 with?new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>                 To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.? If an M
>>>                 no longer has its original motor, or equal
>>>                 replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>                 Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's
>>>                 almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it
>>>                 was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got
>>>                 the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not
>>>                 much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what
>>>                 appears to be non-original carbs and distributor
>>>                 caused me concern. Who would remove those from an
>>>                 original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve
>>>                 cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator
>>>                 on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a
>>>                 100M cam in the lump!
>>>                 Happy Healeydays,
>>>                 Rick Neville
>>>
>>>                 On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell
>>>                 <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>                     Excellent report, thank you.
>>>
>>>                     I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT
>>>                     to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not
>>>                     familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>>                     point out obvious differences with my car (which
>>>                     was completely original as far as I can tell,
>>>                     except for extensive body work). One thing that
>>>                     was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
>>>                     Registry certified this car, while noting some
>>>                     major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked
>>>                     to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like
>>>                     my car).
>>>
>>>                     The other thing that interested me is, how do
>>>                     you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car,
>>>                     probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>                     /should/ be less than a comparably restored,
>>>                     original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous
>>>                     owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>                     How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
>>>                     bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk
>>>                     alongside the page title.
>>>
>>>                     Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                     On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>                         If you were following it recently,? you
>>>                         might find my observations interesting. So I
>>>                         went down to Michael's motor cars to help
>>>                         him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1
>>>                         chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>                         It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
>>>                         pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose
>>>                         frame mount the is less pronounced welded
>>>                         BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted
>>>                         on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>                         evidence of being replaced and show the
>>>                         factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
>>>                         non-original/factory welds as if it were
>>>                         replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.
>>>                         What I found most interesting is that where
>>>                         a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the
>>>                         dash, it took shining a light it different
>>>                         directions to just make out the slight
>>>                         evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the
>>>                         two relays). And I was able to reach inside
>>>                         the vent just below that area with my
>>>                         fingers and feel the welds and welding wire
>>>                         that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can
>>>                         tell you someone took great care to try and
>>>                         make those holes seem as they never existed.
>>>                         Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>                         single OD relay attached to the firewall
>>>                         with machine screws screwed into welded
>>>                         captive nuts on the firewall,? you can see
>>>                         plain sheet screws were used to mount it in
>>>                         what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>                         I also feel the engine tag is a repo because
>>>                         of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to
>>>                         have the numbers/ letters stamped with a
>>>                         deeper end result.? I took my repo engine
>>>                         tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>                         identical in the stampings. The body/ bath
>>>                         tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that
>>>                         doesn't mean that the engine isn't the
>>>                         correct M engine, because there could be
>>>                         many reasons why the engine tag was
>>>                         replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100
>>>                         compared to a 100M can attest to the
>>>                         difference in power, and Mike stated that it
>>>                         indeed has that M power.
>>>                         The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay
>>>                         bracket being swapped off another lid, and
>>>                         if you look closely you can see that the
>>>                         boot shows some previous age/life. I'd
>>>                         believe it to be original. I could not make
>>>                         out any evidence of the bonnet number being
>>>                         sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say
>>>                         that the underside of the bonnet seemed
>>>                         suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't
>>>                         detect any age like the boot, but that would
>>>                         be for someone else to decide.
>>>                         Mike had asked me if the cold air box was
>>>                         original, and I simply don't have that
>>>                         experience to know. I have anyways heard if
>>>                         it looks old, it's original.? It does indeed
>>>                         look to have some age, so?
>>>                         I feel at some point in this car's life
>>>                         someone went to some effort to try and
>>>                         conceal that these 100M parts were
>>>                         reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
>>>                         interesting note is that there was an
>>>                         attempt to fill the holes where a BN1
>>>                         chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail.
>>>                         Perhaps the person didn't realize that the
>>>                         holes continued over to the BN2's, and
>>>                         thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1
>>>                         chassis?
>>>                         With all that said, Mike is simply trying to
>>>                         represent the car correctly. The car is a
>>>                         very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is
>>>                         straight, and gaps look good. Interior is
>>>                         very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>                         all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike
>>>                         has years of experience under his belt, so
>>>                         I'd trust his opinions on that. With the
>>>                         quality of the restoration, it is surprising
>>>                         that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>                         not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good,
>>>                         and I'd think winning some trophies at a
>>>                         popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>                         The Millers
>>>
>>>                         "Always drive them, but remember each drive
>>>                         in an antique car is a test drive."
>>>
>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>                     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>                     Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>>>
>>>                     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>                     http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>
>>>                     Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>                     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>
>>>                     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>                     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>
>>>             ?
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>             Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>             Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>>>
>>>             Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>             http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>
>>>             Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>             http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>
>>>             Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>             http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michaelsalter at gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>         Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>>
>>         Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>         http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>>         Healeys at autox.team.net
>>         http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>>         Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>         http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michael.oritt at gmail.com
>>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>     http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
>     Healeys at autox.team.net
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>
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From rfbegani at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 03:06:32 2023
From: rfbegani at gmail.com (rfbegani at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <1702750499966.1210328.d27e55275734a5d8ba871b7b70956e5e88a30f60@spica.telekom.de>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
 <1702750499966.1210328.d27e55275734a5d8ba871b7b70956e5e88a30f60@spica.telekom.de>
Message-ID: <0d4a01da30d0$b6739590$235ac0b0$@gmail.com>

Dear Josef:

 

Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there are large numbers of retired people.  My good friend and President of our British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that younger people want Japanese or European sports cars.  It is the same for those who enjoy boating.  Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old.  I had to give away my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort.  I still have another younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sail in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.  

 

Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club.  He is a born salesman and a lover of old sports cars.

 

Regards,

 

Bob Begani

67 BJ8

 

 

 

From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of josef-eckert--- via Healeys
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>; Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
Cc: healeys at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT

 

As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better cars compared.

Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, but not inviting.

 

Josef Eckert

Germany

 

 

 

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From dmasucci at charter.net  Sun Dec 17 06:10:57 2023
From: dmasucci at charter.net (David Masucci)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
In-Reply-To: <1702750499966.1210328.d27e55275734a5d8ba871b7b70956e5e88a30f60@spica.telekom.de>
References: <PH7P221MB1007886F0723E0EFEFCB78C3D48CA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <39821d9b-ea7b-4a53-b698-d3563d874793@comcast.net>
 <CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4f3a085a-8c16-470e-9cc2-618fb1cfed07@comcast.net>
 <1702665116940.1168058.8a006dc4664b73b32cc87c61b96c39d275336eb9@spica.telekom.de>
 <CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <edff0cc1-ab70-46c3-b532-1647cd1cab8c@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5FFKbZyBNszuXUsAf6UwK-xJBtOSn7bHCFyiHt66DTNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf035b74-3df3-41dd-9038-1498821d2640@comcast.net>
 <1702750499966.1210328.d27e55275734a5d8ba871b7b70956e5e88a30f60@spica.telekom.de>
Message-ID: <AA191262-0C45-4B1C-86CC-1554FC87F480@charter.net>

All of this is inevitable, and not a  bad thing. Let?s just continue to enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth. 

Dave

> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better cars compared.
> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, but not inviting.
>  
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>  
>  
>  
> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
> 
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry thing). 
> 
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
> 
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf <https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf>
> 
> 
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>  
> Best--Michael Oritt
> 
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
> 
> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
> 
> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain). 
> 
> bs
> 
> 
> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100. 
> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,  say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
> Just my opinion. 
>  
> M
> 
> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany 
>  
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>
>  
>  
>  
> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). 
> 
> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
> 
> 
> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction. 
>  
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
>  
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
> 
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
> Excellent report, thank you. 
> 
> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car). 
> 
> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value should be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>  
> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount. 
>  
> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position. 
>  
> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power. 
>  
> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide. 
>  
> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>  
> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis? 
>  
> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue. 
>  
> The Millers
>  
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From craiginchico at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 13:09:20 2023
From: craiginchico at gmail.com (Craig Cooper)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 12:09:20 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 16, Issue 299
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1702839602.11405.healeys@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.2.1702839602.11405.healeys@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <CABWqUykU=UXDAy6D7aA3Sak8Wk6e11nGwq-C7JKP1rWQXcYx4g@mail.gmail.com>

Re: Recent 100 M on BaT

Rick and Bob:  I did it.  I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that there
is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen other
issues that went unanswered.  Being incredulous at the number of issues on
the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presented, I
showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who said
"Aren't those BN1 shock towers?"  I had also recently watched the walk
around video and simply couldn't contain myself.  Maybe it would have been
better to just reach out to the seller, but I didn't think of that until
just now.  Contrary to being savage, I think my remarks showed restraint.
There is a lot more there, and I didn't mention any of the top side
problems.  (Bob, I laughed when I read your "ashtray delete" remark)  I
think the open discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits
both the buyer and the seller.  Imagine the embarrassment of a neophyte
Healey 100 enthusiast having  paid top dollar for this car entering it in a
concours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having it
judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be
judged.  Think he might seek legal remedy?  I wouldn't want to be the guy
who sold it to him.



On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01?AM <healeys-request at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)
>    2. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)
>    3. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (rfbegani at gmail.com)
>    4. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mark Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com>
> To: healeys at autox.team.net
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
> > Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over
> > the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing
> > so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high
> > for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work
> involved.
>
> Try running Team Net for 30+ years!
>
> mjb.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> To: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
> Cc: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>, "healeys at autox.team.net" <
> healeys at autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Rick,
>
> Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing
> for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having a
> replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no issues
> with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) reduced
> price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what
> s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
>      As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the *Healey
> Marque *this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I
> think your comment  " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
> distributor slide "  raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
> certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to
> be presented to be certified.
> https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
> <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf>   But it
> seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory
> with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine
> number.  And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't
> there, Bill says in the article  "If some of these items are missing, let
> the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
> enough ID points are present."  So my impression, which I'll try to verify
> with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is
> the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it
> had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the
> original parts an M would have come with.
>       I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
> probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with
> an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be
> worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>
> Happy Healeydays
> Rick Neville
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>
>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>
>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>
>>
>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>> collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>
>>> bs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>> consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What makes a 100M?
>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>
>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>> Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>> bands).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>
>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>> in the lump!
>>>>
>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply
>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>> it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>>>
>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <rfbegani at gmail.com>
> To: <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
> Cc: <healeys at autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Dear Josef:
>
>
>
> Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there
> are large numbers of retired people.  My good friend and President of our
> British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that younger
> people want Japanese or European sports cars.  It is the same for those who
> enjoy boating.  Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old.  I had to give away
> my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake
> Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort.  I still have another
> younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sail
> in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.
>
>
>
> Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks
> to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club.  He is a born salesman and
> a lover of old sports cars.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Bob Begani
>
> 67 BJ8
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *josef-eckert---
> via Healeys
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
> *To:* Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>; Michael Oritt <
> michael.oritt at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* healeys at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
>
>
> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the
> pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on
> motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and
> the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also
> a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow
> sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
> cars compared.
>
> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful
> events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago
> are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are
> hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those
> who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really
> inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive,
> but not inviting.
>
>
>
> Josef Eckert
>
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Masucci <dmasucci at charter.net>
> To: "josef-eckert at t-online.de" <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
> Cc: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>, Michael Oritt <
> michael.oritt at gmail.com>, Ahealey help <healeys at autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> All of this is inevitable, and not a  bad thing. Let?s just continue to
> enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will
> entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth.
>
> Dave
>
> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the
> pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on
> motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and
> the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also
> a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow
> sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
> cars compared.
> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful
> events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago
> are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are
> hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those
> who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really
> inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive,
> but not inviting.
>
>
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a
> 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
> tired of doing the registry thing).
>
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
>
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
> collectibility.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>
>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant
>> price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
>> remain).
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>
>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>> consider them be very special.
>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
>> to see the "Registry" fade away.
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> M
>>
>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>> bands).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>> in the lump!
>>>
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>
>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since
>>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as
>>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while
>>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
>>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>
>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How
>>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>
>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>
>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>
>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>
>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't
>>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>>>> original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>
>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>
>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The Millers
>>>>
>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>>>> drive."
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>
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>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>> ?
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From healeyrik at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 16:29:46 2023
From: healeyrik at gmail.com (HealeyRick)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 18:29:46 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 16, Issue 299
In-Reply-To: <CABWqUykU=UXDAy6D7aA3Sak8Wk6e11nGwq-C7JKP1rWQXcYx4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1702839602.11405.healeys@autox.team.net>
 <CABWqUykU=UXDAy6D7aA3Sak8Wk6e11nGwq-C7JKP1rWQXcYx4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfzsZc=uMzKPPXDzBxFC0qU_pFF6xWzjHfn3pDSrMc8c=Q-ow@mail.gmail.com>

Craig,

Ethical commenters on BaT need to walk a tightrope between helping bidders
avoid a mistake or pooching a seller's sale. I won't comment on a sale of
someone I know because I don't want to be accused of puffing their sale or
OTOH submarining one that is being offered by a friend. If a seller doesn't
want honest opinions, go offer it somewhere else and stay off BaT. Someone
who benefitted from your advice should be thankful.  It's not supposed to
be a cheerleading squad every time a person puts a car up for auction.

Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 3:52?PM Craig Cooper <craiginchico at gmail.com> wrote:

> Re: Recent 100 M on BaT
>
> Rick and Bob:  I did it.  I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that
> there is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen other
> issues that went unanswered.  Being incredulous at the number of issues on
> the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presented, I
> showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who said
> "Aren't those BN1 shock towers?"  I had also recently watched the walk
> around video and simply couldn't contain myself.  Maybe it would have been
> better to just reach out to the seller, but I didn't think of that until
> just now.  Contrary to being savage, I think my remarks showed restraint.
> There is a lot more there, and I didn't mention any of the top side
> problems.  (Bob, I laughed when I read your "ashtray delete" remark)  I
> think the open discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits
> both the buyer and the seller.  Imagine the embarrassment of a neophyte
> Healey 100 enthusiast having  paid top dollar for this car entering it in a
> concours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having it
> judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be
> judged.  Think he might seek legal remedy?  I wouldn't want to be the guy
> who sold it to him.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01?AM <healeys-request at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
>>         healeys at autox.team.net
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         healeys-request at autox.team.net
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         healeys-owner at autox.team.net
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)
>>    2. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)
>>    3. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (rfbegani at gmail.com)
>>    4. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Mark Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com>
>> To: healeys at autox.team.net
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
>> > Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over
>> > the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing
>> > so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high
>> > for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work
>> involved.
>>
>> Try running Team Net for 30+ years!
>>
>> mjb.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> To: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>, "healeys at autox.team.net" <
>> healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> Rick,
>>
>> Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing
>> for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having a
>> replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no issues
>> with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) reduced
>> price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what
>> s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>>      As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the *Healey
>> Marque *this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I
>> think your comment  " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
>> distributor slide "  raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
>> certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to
>> be presented to be certified.
>> https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
>> <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf>   But
>> it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory
>> with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine
>> number.  And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't
>> there, Bill says in the article  "If some of these items are missing, let
>> the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
>> enough ID points are present."  So my impression, which I'll try to verify
>> with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is
>> the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it
>> had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the
>> original parts an M would have come with.
>>       I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
>> probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with
>> an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be
>> worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>>
>> Happy Healeydays
>> Rick Neville
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>>
>>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>>
>>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>>
>>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
>>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>>> collectibility.
>>>
>>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>>
>>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
>>>> appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in
>>>> attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also,
>>>> the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars
>>>> that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>>
>>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>>
>>>> bs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>>> consider them be very special.
>>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> M
>>>>
>>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What makes a 100M?
>>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>>> Germany
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>>
>>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>>
>>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>>
>>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may
>>>>> be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M'
>>>>> with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd
>>>>> be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>>> bands).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>>> in the lump!
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car?
>>>>>> Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the
>>>>>> BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket,
>>>>>> as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply
>>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>>> it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort
>>>>>> to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michaelsalter at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: <rfbegani at gmail.com>
>> To: <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
>> Cc: <healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>
>> Dear Josef:
>>
>>
>>
>> Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there
>> are large numbers of retired people.  My good friend and President of our
>> British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that younger
>> people want Japanese or European sports cars.  It is the same for those who
>> enjoy boating.  Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old.  I had to give away
>> my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake
>> Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort.  I still have another
>> younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sail
>> in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks
>> to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club.  He is a born salesman and
>> a lover of old sports cars.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Begani
>>
>> 67 BJ8
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *josef-eckert---
>> via Healeys
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
>> *To:* Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>; Michael Oritt <
>> michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* healeys at autox.team.net
>> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>
>>
>>
>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
>> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like
>> the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic
>> and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density
>> and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and
>> also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
>> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
>> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
>> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
>> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
>> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
>> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
>> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
>> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
>> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are
>> slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
>> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
>> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
>> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
>> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
>> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
>> cars compared.
>>
>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The
>> beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20
>> years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time.
>> There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs
>> anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done
>> is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which
>> are expensive, but not inviting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Josef Eckert
>>
>> Germany
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: David Masucci <dmasucci at charter.net>
>> To: "josef-eckert at t-online.de" <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
>> Cc: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>, Michael Oritt <
>> michael.oritt at gmail.com>, Ahealey help <healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> All of this is inevitable, and not a  bad thing. Let?s just continue to
>> enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will
>> entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
>> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like
>> the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic
>> and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density
>> and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and
>> also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
>> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
>> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
>> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
>> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
>> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
>> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
>> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
>> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
>> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are
>> slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
>> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
>> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
>> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
>> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
>> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
>> cars compared.
>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The
>> beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20
>> years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time.
>> There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs
>> anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done
>> is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which
>> are expensive, but not inviting.
>>
>>
>> Josef Eckert
>> Germany
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>
>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>
>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>
>>
>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>> collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>
>>> bs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>> consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>> bands).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>> caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>> new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>> is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>
>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its
>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>> in the lump!
>>>>
>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations
>>>>> interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>> seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>> result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply
>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>> it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>> restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From boyracer466 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 17:06:12 2023
From: boyracer466 at gmail.com (richard mayor)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 16:06:12 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 16, Issue 299
In-Reply-To: <CAGfzsZc=uMzKPPXDzBxFC0qU_pFF6xWzjHfn3pDSrMc8c=Q-ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1702839602.11405.healeys@autox.team.net>
 <CABWqUykU=UXDAy6D7aA3Sak8Wk6e11nGwq-C7JKP1rWQXcYx4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfzsZc=uMzKPPXDzBxFC0qU_pFF6xWzjHfn3pDSrMc8c=Q-ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15DC6F22-3AE1-4A9E-A2F1-3D293FBD8BBF@gmail.com>

The fact that it?s a BN1 chassis (no flanges on the shocks tower) is certainly a red flag and I think that anyone who caught that discrepancy should feel obligated to inform prospective buyers.  If you?re gonna clone a 100M, at least do it on a BN2 chassis. Right?  

Rick is spot on. ?If a seller doesn?t want honest opinions, go offer it somewhere else?.. ?.  

Richard Mayor
boyracer466 at gmail.com



> On Dec 17, 2023, at 3:29 PM, HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Craig,
> 
> Ethical commenters on BaT need to walk a tightrope between helping bidders avoid a mistake or pooching a seller's sale. I won't comment on a sale of someone I know because I don't want to be accused of puffing their sale or OTOH submarining one that is being offered by a friend. If a seller doesn't want honest opinions, go offer it somewhere else and stay off BaT. Someone who benefitted from your advice should be thankful.  It's not supposed to be a cheerleading squad every time a person puts a car up for auction.
> 
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
> 
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 3:52?PM Craig Cooper <craiginchico at gmail.com <mailto:craiginchico at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Re: Recent 100 M on BaT
>> 
>> Rick and Bob:  I did it.  I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that there is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen other issues that went unanswered.  Being incredulous at the number of issues on the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presented, I showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who said "Aren't those BN1 shock towers?"  I had also recently watched the walk around video and simply couldn't contain myself.  Maybe it would have been better to just reach out to the seller, but I didn't think of that until just now.  Contrary to being savage, I think my remarks showed restraint.  There is a lot more there, and I didn't mention any of the top side problems.  (Bob, I laughed when I read your "ashtray delete" remark)  I think the open discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits both the buyer and the seller.  Imagine the embarrassment of a neophyte Healey 100 enthusiast having  paid top dollar for this car entering it in a concours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having it judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be judged.  Think he might seek legal remedy?  I wouldn't want to be the guy who sold it to him.
>> 
>>   
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01?AM <healeys-request at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys-request at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
>>>         healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>>> 
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>         http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>         healeys-request at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys-request at autox.team.net>
>>> 
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>         healeys-owner at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys-owner at autox.team.net>
>>> 
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."
>>> Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>    1. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)
>>>    2. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)
>>>    3. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (rfbegani at gmail.com <mailto:rfbegani at gmail.com>)
>>>    4. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Mark Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com <mailto:mark at bradakis.com>>
>>> To: healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>>> Cc: 
>>> Bcc: 
>>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
>>> > Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over 
>>> > the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing 
>>> > so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high 
>>> > for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work involved.
>>> 
>>> Try running Team Net for 30+ years!
>>> 
>>> mjb.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>> To: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>, "healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>" <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>>
>>> Bcc: 
>>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> Rick,
>>> 
>>> Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having a replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no issues with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) reduced price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>> Bob,
>>>> 
>>>>      As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the Healey Marque this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I think your comment  " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide "  raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to be presented to be certified.   https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf? <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf>   But it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine number.  And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't there, Bill says in the article  "If some of these items are missing, let the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided enough ID points are present."  So my impression, which I'll try to verify with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the original parts an M would have come with.
>>>>       I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>>>> 
>>>> Happy Healeydays
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>>>> 
>>>>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry thing). 
>>>>> 
>>>>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>>>>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain). 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> bs
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100. 
>>>>>>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,  say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
>>>>>>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>>>>>>> Just my opinion. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> M
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What makes a 100M? 
>>>>>>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, 
>>>>>>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and 
>>>>>>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a 
>>>>>>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a 
>>>>>>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me 
>>>>>>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more 
>>>>>>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>>>>>>> Germany
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>>>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>>>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>>>>>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>>>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction. 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>>>>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Excellent report, thank you. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car). 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value shouldbe less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount. 
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position. 
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power. 
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide. 
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis? 
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue. 
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
>>>>>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
>>>>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michaelsalter at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
>>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michael.oritt at gmail.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>> 
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>> 
>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>> 
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: <rfbegani at gmail.com <mailto:rfbegani at gmail.com>>
>>> To: <josef-eckert at t-online.de <mailto:josef-eckert at t-online.de>>
>>> Cc: <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>>
>>> Bcc: 
>>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> Dear Josef:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there are large numbers of retired people.  My good friend and President of our British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that younger people want Japanese or European sports cars.  It is the same for those who enjoy boating.  Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old.  I had to give away my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort.  I still have another younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sail in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club.  He is a born salesman and a lover of old sports cars.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Bob Begani
>>> 
>>> 67 BJ8
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of josef-eckert--- via Healeys
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
>>> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>; Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better cars compared.
>>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, but not inviting.
>>>  
>>> Josef Eckert
>>> Germany
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: David Masucci <dmasucci at charter.net <mailto:dmasucci at charter.net>>
>>> To: "josef-eckert at t-online.de <mailto:josef-eckert at t-online.de>" <josef-eckert at t-online.de <mailto:josef-eckert at t-online.de>>
>>> Cc: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>, Ahealey help <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>>
>>> Bcc: 
>>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> All of this is inevitable, and not a  bad thing. Let?s just continue to enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth. 
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better cars compared.
>>>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, but not inviting.
>>>>  
>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>> Germany
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>>> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>>> 
>>>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry thing). 
>>>> 
>>>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>>> 
>>>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>>>>  
>>>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain). 
>>>>> 
>>>>> bs
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100. 
>>>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,  say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
>>>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>>>> Just my opinion. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> M
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Excellent report, thank you. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car). 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value should be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount. 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position. 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power. 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide. 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis? 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue. 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From boyracer466 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 23:50:39 2023
From: boyracer466 at gmail.com (Richard Mayor)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 22:50:39 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 16, Issue 299
In-Reply-To: <15DC6F22-3AE1-4A9E-A2F1-3D293FBD8BBF@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1702839602.11405.healeys@autox.team.net>
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 <CAGfzsZc=uMzKPPXDzBxFC0qU_pFF6xWzjHfn3pDSrMc8c=Q-ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <15DC6F22-3AE1-4A9E-A2F1-3D293FBD8BBF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F7DFC4F5-E270-4730-B793-32CEF5AE0C5F@gmail.com>

Maybe I shouldn?t have used the word ?clone?.   Even though it made me wonder. 


Richard Mayor
boyracer466 at gmail.com


> On Dec 17, 2023, at 4:06 PM, richard mayor <boyracer466 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The fact that it?s a BN1 chassis (no flanges on the shocks tower) is certainly a red flag and I think that anyone who caught that discrepancy should feel obligated to inform prospective buyers.  If you?re gonna clone a 100M, at least do it on a BN2 chassis. Right?  
> 
> Rick is spot on. ?If a seller doesn?t want honest opinions, go offer it somewhere else?.. ?.  
> 
> Richard Mayor
> boyracer466 at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 17, 2023, at 3:29 PM, HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Craig,
>> 
>> Ethical commenters on BaT need to walk a tightrope between helping bidders avoid a mistake or pooching a seller's sale. I won't comment on a sale of someone I know because I don't want to be accused of puffing their sale or OTOH submarining one that is being offered by a friend. If a seller doesn't want honest opinions, go offer it somewhere else and stay off BaT. Someone who benefitted from your advice should be thankful.  It's not supposed to be a cheerleading squad every time a person puts a car up for auction.
>> 
>> Happy Healeydays,
>> Rick Neville
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 3:52?PM Craig Cooper <craiginchico at gmail.com <mailto:craiginchico at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Re: Recent 100 M on BaT
>> 
>> Rick and Bob:  I did it.  I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that there is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen other issues that went unanswered.  Being incredulous at the number of issues on the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presented, I showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who said "Aren't those BN1 shock towers?"  I had also recently watched the walk around video and simply couldn't contain myself.  Maybe it would have been better to just reach out to the seller, but I didn't think of that until just now.  Contrary to being savage, I think my remarks showed restraint.  There is a lot more there, and I didn't mention any of the top side problems.  (Bob, I laughed when I read your "ashtray delete" remark)  I think the open discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits both the buyer and the seller.  Imagine the embarrassment of a neophyte Healey 100 enthusiast having  paid top dollar for this car entering it in a concours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having it judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be judged.  Think he might seek legal remedy?  I wouldn't want to be the guy who sold it to him.
>> 
>>   
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01?AM <healeys-request at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys-request at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
>>         healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys <http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>    1. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)
>>    2. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)
>>    3. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (rfbegani at gmail.com <mailto:rfbegani at gmail.com>)
>>    4. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Mark Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com <mailto:mark at bradakis.com>>
>> To: healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Cc: 
>> Bcc: 
>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
>> > Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over 
>> > the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing 
>> > so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high 
>> > for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work involved.
>> 
>> Try running Team Net for 30+ years!
>> 
>> mjb.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>> To: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>
>> Cc: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>, "healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>" <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>>
>> Bcc: 
>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> Rick,
>> 
>> Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having a replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no issues with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) reduced price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>> Bob,
>>> 
>>>      As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the Healey Marque this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I think your comment  " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide "  raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to be presented to be certified.   https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf? <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf>   But it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine number.  And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't there, Bill says in the article  "If some of these items are missing, let the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided enough ID points are present."  So my impression, which I'll try to verify with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the original parts an M would have come with.
>>>       I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>>> 
>>> Happy Healeydays
>>> Rick Neville
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>> 
>>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry thing). 
>>> 
>>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>> 
>>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf <https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>>>> 
>>>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>> 
>>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>> 
>>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain). 
>>>> 
>>>> bs
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100. 
>>>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,  say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
>>>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>>>> Just my opinion. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> M
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>>> What makes a 100M? 
>>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, 
>>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and 
>>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a 
>>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a 
>>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me 
>>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more 
>>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>>> Germany
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
>>>>>  
>>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car). 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value shouldbe less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>  
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>  
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis? 
>>>>>  
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>  
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>> 
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys <http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys <http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys <http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys>
>>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: <rfbegani at gmail.com <mailto:rfbegani at gmail.com>>
>> To: <josef-eckert at t-online.de <mailto:josef-eckert at t-online.de>>
>> Cc: <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>>
>> Bcc: 
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> Dear Josef:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there are large numbers of retired people.  My good friend and President of our British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that younger people want Japanese or European sports cars.  It is the same for those who enjoy boating.  Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old.  I had to give away my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort.  I still have another younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sail in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club.  He is a born salesman and a lover of old sports cars.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Bob Begani
>> 
>> 67 BJ8
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of josef-eckert--- via Healeys
>> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
>> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>; Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>
>> Cc: healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better cars compared.
>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, but not inviting.
>>  
>> Josef Eckert
>> Germany
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: David Masucci <dmasucci at charter.net <mailto:dmasucci at charter.net>>
>> To: "josef-eckert at t-online.de <mailto:josef-eckert at t-online.de>" <josef-eckert at t-online.de <mailto:josef-eckert at t-online.de>>
>> Cc: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>, Ahealey help <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>>
>> Bcc: 
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> All of this is inevitable, and not a  bad thing. Let?s just continue to enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth. 
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better cars compared.
>>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, but not inviting.
>>>  
>>> Josef Eckert
>>> Germany
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>> 
>>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry thing). 
>>> 
>>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>> 
>>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf <https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.  If so it was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>>>  
>>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>> 
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>> 
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain). 
>>> 
>>> bs
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100. 
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,  say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion. 
>>>  
>>> M
>>> 
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany 
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com <mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). 
>>> 
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.  Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.  How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?  Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction. 
>>>  
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.  If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
>>>  
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>> Excellent report, thank you. 
>>> 
>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car). 
>>> 
>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value should be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>> If you were following it recently,  you might find my observations interesting.  So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>  
>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount. 
>>>  
>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes seem as they never existed.  Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,  you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position. 
>>>  
>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end result.  I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power. 
>>>  
>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else to decide. 
>>>  
>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,  and I simply don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.  It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>  
>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis? 
>>>  
>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,  it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue. 
>>>  
>>> The Millers
>>>  
>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From michael.oritt at gmail.com  Wed Dec 20 18:58:06 2023
From: michael.oritt at gmail.com (Michael Oritt)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 20:58:06 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
Message-ID: <CAPTa0B4EwsZdwoViKJGG8Y=SZh7XFzU9667r-Gw5HY8QpS0apA@mail.gmail.com>

The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the
present water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific breakthrough in the
manufacturing of this often problematic piece of equipment.

Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer a real improvement of
what is generally offered to us?

Best--Michael Oritt
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From healeynut2 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 20 21:05:54 2023
From: healeynut2 at gmail.com (Don Hardie)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 15:05:54 +1100
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAPTa0B4EwsZdwoViKJGG8Y=SZh7XFzU9667r-Gw5HY8QpS0apA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTa0B4EwsZdwoViKJGG8Y=SZh7XFzU9667r-Gw5HY8QpS0apA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEbiTgWK==C=GYGMDXoOASrLqDL=mHd5KOxwFuAH+0zpua7YQg@mail.gmail.com>

Michael, I modified my water pump in 1997 fitting a sealed bearing and a
swimming pool pump seal.
I haven't had it fail, but every time I have been working at the engine
front, I replaced the bearing and seal. I also carry a modified pump in the
boot just in case.
Check out the attachment.
Don Hardie


On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 1:52?PM Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the
> present water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific breakthrough in the
> manufacturing of this often problematic piece of equipment.
>
> Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer a real improvement of
> what is generally offered to us?
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeynut2 at gmail.com
>
>
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From gradea1 at charter.net  Wed Dec 20 23:40:24 2023
From: gradea1 at charter.net (Hank Leach)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 06:40:24 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
Message-ID: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>

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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Dec 21 08:56:41 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 07:56:41 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
In-Reply-To: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>
References: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>
Message-ID: <a795b19b-66a5-43a6-b264-cca24326276f@comcast.net>

I bought the 'uprated' pump by Bastuck from BPNW (the AHSpares offering 
appears to be an unbranded version, or maybe a copy). The impeller 
appears to be somewhat more effective design, and the gap between the 
impeller and the pump body is, I think, smaller than OEM so would likely 
flow better. The threads on it won't fit the OEM valve--I think 
everything's metric on it--and it comes with a barbed nipple. As 
previously reported, the hole on the top of the pump--anyone know what 
that's for?--comes with a plug that doesn't plug; I tried everything to 
get it to seal, and ruined a pump in my attempts. I finally found a way, 
and may use it to seal an O/D drain plug if it continues to leak. It 
works fine, but I haven't had the car out on a hot day. I don't think 
coolant flow is the cause of overheating, esp. at idle; it's mainly due 
to lack of airflow through the engine bay, lack of a shroud, etc.

I was so desperate I even tried a County pump, bought from Tom Monaco 
but sourced by Moss. The bearing felt rough and and I didn't install it; 
I returned it, and Tom had to jump through hoops to get a refund but he 
came through. Tom knows a rebuilder in Oregon who rebuilt an OEM pump 
for me, but it's currently riding in the boot. I don't have the invoice, 
but Tom would tell you if you gave him a call.

Bob

On 12/20/2023 10:40 PM, Hank Leach via Healeys wrote:
> When I did my 100, in 2015, I took the original pump to a very good 
> machinist who fashioned a seal out of delrin and he figured out the 
> correct spring pressure using an original NOS part and the pump works 
> perfect to date.
> AH Spares professes that they have the best pump. Many other 
> aftermarket makers, including County, make junk. Using the original 
> parts can work if you have someone who understands pumps.The proper 
> spring pressure is critical to prevent leaks and the seal being made 
> out of delrin resists wear from vibration. This machinist worked for 
> an agricultural supply company. Hank
> --------------------
>
> From: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
> To: "Austin Healey" <healeys at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wed, Dec 20 2023 06:35 PM
> Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
> The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the 
> present?water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific breakthrough 
> in the manufacturing of this often problematic piece of equipment.
> Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer?a real improvement 
> of what is generally offered to us?
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
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From michael.oritt at gmail.com  Thu Dec 21 10:54:20 2023
From: michael.oritt at gmail.com (Michael Oritt)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 12:54:20 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
In-Reply-To: <a795b19b-66a5-43a6-b264-cca24326276f@comcast.net>
References: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>
 <a795b19b-66a5-43a6-b264-cca24326276f@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTa0B7NQR1VAw8-pzi__B9LXNSt5ZsfdmDFb_WwuDZDAaV0rQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Bob--

It is somewhat discouraging that what should be easy--sourcing a good and
dependable water pump--seems like such a daunting task.  As I mentioned I'd
like to replace my present pump--I believe the "uprated" version which I
installed in situ several years back and is working just fine--with a new,
dependable one with the hope that it will give several years of good
service, and while that should not be a big ask I don't think I should have
the feeling that I am merely changing cabins on the Titanic.

All that said, most feedback seems to point to the AH Spares unit and
that's probably where I'll go unless someone turns my head around.  You
mention that the threads are metric and I assume you mean the one for the
shutoff valve.  I don't have one of those--never had--and since it is
pretty expensive and I can simply shut off flow via the tap on the right
side of the engine I think I'll stay without one.

As to the hole on top of the pump--isn't that supposed to be a
weephole designed to be left unplugged to serve as a warning that water is
getting past the seal in the engine--or am I misunderstanding what you are
referring to ?

Best--Michael





On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> I bought the 'uprated' pump by Bastuck from BPNW (the AHSpares offering
> appears to be an unbranded version, or maybe a copy). The impeller appears
> to be somewhat more effective design, and the gap between the impeller and
> the pump body is, I think, smaller than OEM so would likely flow better.
> The threads on it won't fit the OEM valve--I think everything's metric on
> it--and it comes with a barbed nipple. As previously reported, the hole on
> the top of the pump--anyone know what that's for?--comes with a plug that
> doesn't plug; I tried everything to get it to seal, and ruined a pump in my
> attempts. I finally found a way, and may use it to seal an O/D drain plug
> if it continues to leak. It works fine, but I haven't had the car out on a
> hot day. I don't think coolant flow is the cause of overheating, esp. at
> idle; it's mainly due to lack of airflow through the engine bay, lack of a
> shroud, etc.
>
> I was so desperate I even tried a County pump, bought from Tom Monaco but
> sourced by Moss. The bearing felt rough and and I didn't install it; I
> returned it, and Tom had to jump through hoops to get a refund but he came
> through. Tom knows a rebuilder in Oregon who rebuilt an OEM pump for me,
> but it's currently riding in the boot. I don't have the invoice, but Tom
> would tell you if you gave him a call.
>
> Bob
>
> On 12/20/2023 10:40 PM, Hank Leach via Healeys wrote:
>
> When I did my 100, in 2015, I took the original pump to a very good
> machinist who fashioned a seal out of delrin and he figured out the correct
> spring pressure using an original NOS part and the pump works perfect to
> date.
>
> AH Spares professes that they have the best pump. Many other aftermarket
> makers, including County, make junk. Using the original parts can work if
> you have someone who understands pumps.The proper spring pressure is
> critical to prevent leaks and the seal being made out of delrin resists
> wear from vibration. This machinist worked for an agricultural supply
> company. Hank
> --------------------
>
> From: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com> <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
> To: "Austin Healey" <healeys at autox.team.net> <healeys at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wed, Dec 20 2023 06:35 PM
> Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
> The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the
> present water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific breakthrough in the
> manufacturing of this often problematic piece of equipment.
>
> Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer a real improvement of
> what is generally offered to us?
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michael.oritt at gmail.com
>
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Dec 21 12:51:11 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 11:51:11 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAPTa0B7NQR1VAw8-pzi__B9LXNSt5ZsfdmDFb_WwuDZDAaV0rQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>
 <a795b19b-66a5-43a6-b264-cca24326276f@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B7NQR1VAw8-pzi__B9LXNSt5ZsfdmDFb_WwuDZDAaV0rQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1995aa89-54d9-4381-84b5-87cff757b094@comcast.net>

Yep. Many/most pumps do have a hole--usually, looking like a casting 
flaw--over the shaft between the pulley and the seal.? It will weep 
coolant if the seal is leaking, but this is a big, threaded 
hole--half-inch or so--probably for some other inlet. You can see it in 
this pic:

https://bpnorthwest.com/austin-healey/water-pump-uprated-bn1-to-bn2/

Bastuck, I believe, is a German company (Josef is familiar with them). 
Also, IIRC the threads on the shaft are a bit short, I used a thinner 
jamb nut to get good purchase. Those threads may be SAE, but I don't recall.

bs

On 12/21/2023 9:54 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
> Thanks Bob--
>
> It is somewhat discouraging that what should be easy--sourcing a good 
> and dependable water pump--seems like such a daunting task.? As I 
> mentioned I'd like to replace my present pump--I believe?the "uprated" 
> version which I installed in situ several years back and is working 
> just fine--with a new, dependable one with the hope that it will give 
> several years of good service, and while that should not be a big ask 
> I don't think?I should have the feeling that I am merely changing 
> cabins on the Titanic.
>
> All that said, most feedback seems to point to the AH Spares unit and 
> that's probably where I'll go unless someone turns my head around. You 
> mention that the threads are metric and I assume you mean the one for 
> the shutoff?valve.? I don't have one of those--never had--and since it 
> is pretty expensive and I can simply?shut off flow via the tap on the 
> right side of the engine I think I'll stay without one.
>
> As to the hole on top of?the pump--isn't that supposed to be a 
> weephole?designed to be left unplugged to serve as a warning that 
> water is getting past the seal in the engine--or am I 
> misunderstanding?what you are referring to??
>
> Best--Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>     I bought the 'uprated' pump by Bastuck from BPNW (the AHSpares
>     offering appears to be an unbranded version, or maybe a copy). The
>     impeller appears to be somewhat more effective design, and the gap
>     between the impeller and the pump body is, I think, smaller than
>     OEM so would likely flow better. The threads on it won't fit the
>     OEM valve--I think everything's metric on it--and it comes with a
>     barbed nipple. As previously reported, the hole on the top of the
>     pump--anyone know what that's for?--comes with a plug that doesn't
>     plug; I tried everything to get it to seal, and ruined a pump in
>     my attempts. I finally found a way, and may use it to seal an O/D
>     drain plug if it continues to leak. It works fine, but I haven't
>     had the car out on a hot day. I don't think coolant flow is the
>     cause of overheating, esp. at idle; it's mainly due to lack of
>     airflow through the engine bay, lack of a shroud, etc.
>
>     I was so desperate I even tried a County pump, bought from Tom
>     Monaco but sourced by Moss. The bearing felt rough and and I
>     didn't install it; I returned it, and Tom had to jump through
>     hoops to get a refund but he came through. Tom knows a rebuilder
>     in Oregon who rebuilt an OEM pump for me, but it's currently
>     riding in the boot. I don't have the invoice, but Tom would tell
>     you if you gave him a call.
>
>     Bob
>
>     On 12/20/2023 10:40 PM, Hank Leach via Healeys wrote:
>>     When I did my 100, in 2015, I took the original pump to a very
>>     good machinist who fashioned a seal out of delrin and he figured
>>     out the correct spring pressure using an original NOS part and
>>     the pump works perfect to date.
>>     AH Spares professes that they have the best pump. Many other
>>     aftermarket makers, including County, make junk. Using the
>>     original parts can work if you have someone who understands
>>     pumps.The proper spring pressure is critical to prevent leaks and
>>     the seal being made out of delrin resists wear from vibration.
>>     This machinist worked for an agricultural supply company. Hank
>>     --------------------
>>
>>     From: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>>     <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>>     To: "Austin Healey" <healeys at autox.team.net>
>>     <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>>     Sent: Wed, Dec 20 2023 06:35 PM
>>     Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
>>     The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the
>>     present?water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific
>>     breakthrough in the manufacturing of this often problematic piece
>>     of equipment.
>>     Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer?a real
>>     improvement of what is generally offered to us?
>>     Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>     http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
>     Healeys at autox.team.net
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michael.oritt at gmail.com
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Dec 21 12:57:07 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 11:57:07 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAPTa0B7NQR1VAw8-pzi__B9LXNSt5ZsfdmDFb_WwuDZDAaV0rQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>
 <a795b19b-66a5-43a6-b264-cca24326276f@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B7NQR1VAw8-pzi__B9LXNSt5ZsfdmDFb_WwuDZDAaV0rQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <270f7ee3-8429-4697-bd5f-052facbfe475@comcast.net>

ps. The zerk just goes into the cavity between the two bearings, so 
doesn't really serve a purpose that I can see, but I filled it with 
grease anyway.

On 12/21/2023 9:54 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
> Thanks Bob--
>
> It is somewhat discouraging that what should be easy--sourcing a good 
> and dependable water pump--seems like such a daunting task.? As I 
> mentioned I'd like to replace my present pump--I believe?the "uprated" 
> version which I installed in situ several years back and is working 
> just fine--with a new, dependable one with the hope that it will give 
> several years of good service, and while that should not be a big ask 
> I don't think?I should have the feeling that I am merely changing 
> cabins on the Titanic.
>
> All that said, most feedback seems to point to the AH Spares unit and 
> that's probably where I'll go unless someone turns my head around. You 
> mention that the threads are metric and I assume you mean the one for 
> the shutoff?valve.? I don't have one of those--never had--and since it 
> is pretty expensive and I can simply?shut off flow via the tap on the 
> right side of the engine I think I'll stay without one.
>
> As to the hole on top of?the pump--isn't that supposed to be a 
> weephole?designed to be left unplugged to serve as a warning that 
> water is getting past the seal in the engine--or am I 
> misunderstanding?what you are referring to??
>
> Best--Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>     I bought the 'uprated' pump by Bastuck from BPNW (the AHSpares
>     offering appears to be an unbranded version, or maybe a copy). The
>     impeller appears to be somewhat more effective design, and the gap
>     between the impeller and the pump body is, I think, smaller than
>     OEM so would likely flow better. The threads on it won't fit the
>     OEM valve--I think everything's metric on it--and it comes with a
>     barbed nipple. As previously reported, the hole on the top of the
>     pump--anyone know what that's for?--comes with a plug that doesn't
>     plug; I tried everything to get it to seal, and ruined a pump in
>     my attempts. I finally found a way, and may use it to seal an O/D
>     drain plug if it continues to leak. It works fine, but I haven't
>     had the car out on a hot day. I don't think coolant flow is the
>     cause of overheating, esp. at idle; it's mainly due to lack of
>     airflow through the engine bay, lack of a shroud, etc.
>
>     I was so desperate I even tried a County pump, bought from Tom
>     Monaco but sourced by Moss. The bearing felt rough and and I
>     didn't install it; I returned it, and Tom had to jump through
>     hoops to get a refund but he came through. Tom knows a rebuilder
>     in Oregon who rebuilt an OEM pump for me, but it's currently
>     riding in the boot. I don't have the invoice, but Tom would tell
>     you if you gave him a call.
>
>     Bob
>
>     On 12/20/2023 10:40 PM, Hank Leach via Healeys wrote:
>>     When I did my 100, in 2015, I took the original pump to a very
>>     good machinist who fashioned a seal out of delrin and he figured
>>     out the correct spring pressure using an original NOS part and
>>     the pump works perfect to date.
>>     AH Spares professes that they have the best pump. Many other
>>     aftermarket makers, including County, make junk. Using the
>>     original parts can work if you have someone who understands
>>     pumps.The proper spring pressure is critical to prevent leaks and
>>     the seal being made out of delrin resists wear from vibration.
>>     This machinist worked for an agricultural supply company. Hank
>>     --------------------
>>
>>     From: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>>     <mailto:michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>>     To: "Austin Healey" <healeys at autox.team.net>
>>     <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>>     Sent: Wed, Dec 20 2023 06:35 PM
>>     Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
>>     The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the
>>     present?water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific
>>     breakthrough in the manufacturing of this often problematic piece
>>     of equipment.
>>     Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer?a real
>>     improvement of what is generally offered to us?
>>     Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Suggested annual donation? $12.75
>
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>     http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
>     Healeys at autox.team.net
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michael.oritt at gmail.com
>
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From michael.oritt at gmail.com  Thu Dec 21 15:43:10 2023
From: michael.oritt at gmail.com (Michael Oritt)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 17:43:10 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
In-Reply-To: <1995aa89-54d9-4381-84b5-87cff757b094@comcast.net>
References: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>
 <a795b19b-66a5-43a6-b264-cca24326276f@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B7NQR1VAw8-pzi__B9LXNSt5ZsfdmDFb_WwuDZDAaV0rQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1995aa89-54d9-4381-84b5-87cff757b094@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTa0B5CGjdpFLnV-M0B2E-R0tqPpEQB-8NT5OJaHYf6cvw2DA@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know what the large (plugged) hole is for?

On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 2:51?PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:

> Yep. Many/most pumps do have a hole--usually, looking like a casting
> flaw--over the shaft between the pulley and the seal.  It will weep coolant
> if the seal is leaking, but this is a big, threaded hole--half-inch or
> so--probably for some other inlet. You can see it in this pic:
>
> https://bpnorthwest.com/austin-healey/water-pump-uprated-bn1-to-bn2/
>
> Bastuck, I believe, is a German company (Josef is familiar with them).
> Also, IIRC the threads on the shaft are a bit short, I used a thinner jamb
> nut to get good purchase. Those threads may be SAE, but I don't recall.
>
> bs
>
> On 12/21/2023 9:54 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>
> Thanks Bob--
>
> It is somewhat discouraging that what should be easy--sourcing a good and
> dependable water pump--seems like such a daunting task.  As I mentioned I'd
> like to replace my present pump--I believe the "uprated" version which I
> installed in situ several years back and is working just fine--with a new,
> dependable one with the hope that it will give several years of good
> service, and while that should not be a big ask I don't think I should have
> the feeling that I am merely changing cabins on the Titanic.
>
> All that said, most feedback seems to point to the AH Spares unit and
> that's probably where I'll go unless someone turns my head around.  You
> mention that the threads are metric and I assume you mean the one for the
> shutoff valve.  I don't have one of those--never had--and since it is
> pretty expensive and I can simply shut off flow via the tap on the right
> side of the engine I think I'll stay without one.
>
> As to the hole on top of the pump--isn't that supposed to be a
> weephole designed to be left unplugged to serve as a warning that water is
> getting past the seal in the engine--or am I misunderstanding what you are
> referring to ?
>
> Best--Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:31?AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I bought the 'uprated' pump by Bastuck from BPNW (the AHSpares offering
>> appears to be an unbranded version, or maybe a copy). The impeller appears
>> to be somewhat more effective design, and the gap between the impeller and
>> the pump body is, I think, smaller than OEM so would likely flow better.
>> The threads on it won't fit the OEM valve--I think everything's metric on
>> it--and it comes with a barbed nipple. As previously reported, the hole on
>> the top of the pump--anyone know what that's for?--comes with a plug that
>> doesn't plug; I tried everything to get it to seal, and ruined a pump in my
>> attempts. I finally found a way, and may use it to seal an O/D drain plug
>> if it continues to leak. It works fine, but I haven't had the car out on a
>> hot day. I don't think coolant flow is the cause of overheating, esp. at
>> idle; it's mainly due to lack of airflow through the engine bay, lack of a
>> shroud, etc.
>>
>> I was so desperate I even tried a County pump, bought from Tom Monaco but
>> sourced by Moss. The bearing felt rough and and I didn't install it; I
>> returned it, and Tom had to jump through hoops to get a refund but he came
>> through. Tom knows a rebuilder in Oregon who rebuilt an OEM pump for me,
>> but it's currently riding in the boot. I don't have the invoice, but Tom
>> would tell you if you gave him a call.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On 12/20/2023 10:40 PM, Hank Leach via Healeys wrote:
>>
>> When I did my 100, in 2015, I took the original pump to a very good
>> machinist who fashioned a seal out of delrin and he figured out the correct
>> spring pressure using an original NOS part and the pump works perfect to
>> date.
>>
>> AH Spares professes that they have the best pump. Many other aftermarket
>> makers, including County, make junk. Using the original parts can work if
>> you have someone who understands pumps.The proper spring pressure is
>> critical to prevent leaks and the seal being made out of delrin resists
>> wear from vibration. This machinist worked for an agricultural supply
>> company. Hank
>> --------------------
>>
>> From: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com> <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>> To: "Austin Healey" <healeys at autox.team.net> <healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Wed, Dec 20 2023 06:35 PM
>> Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
>> The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the
>> present water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific breakthrough in the
>> manufacturing of this often problematic piece of equipment.
>>
>> Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer a real improvement of
>> what is generally offered to us?
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michael.oritt at gmail.com
>>
>>
>
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From airtightproductions at me.com  Thu Dec 21 18:42:29 2023
From: airtightproductions at me.com (Steven Kingsbury)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 01:42:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAPTa0B5CGjdpFLnV-M0B2E-R0tqPpEQB-8NT5OJaHYf6cvw2DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4f147da5-574f-10bb-fe0e-d5c5a5f6ed73@charter.net>
 <a795b19b-66a5-43a6-b264-cca24326276f@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B7NQR1VAw8-pzi__B9LXNSt5ZsfdmDFb_WwuDZDAaV0rQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1995aa89-54d9-4381-84b5-87cff757b094@comcast.net>
 <CAPTa0B5CGjdpFLnV-M0B2E-R0tqPpEQB-8NT5OJaHYf6cvw2DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14267b24-23f3-42f8-bea1-6aa7903ed3b0@me.com>

Leaking! And leaking a lot!! Here's how I know, I had a water pump fail on a trip to Oregon, I was going to see Steve Pike, let him know I was going to be late and why, when I arrived by tow truck, Steve had gotten one of these new pumps from BPNW and it was waiting for me. Next day I told out the old, put this pump in, hooked everything up and fired up! Lots and lots of leaks that threaded hole. Went through all kinds of jumps, hoops, and bends and made it good enough to drive home 365 miles. Then I fixed it with a "new" Permatex product and it's been great ever since. Drove it to LA, 840 some miles, drove it around Europe 2500 miles, and back home from LA. No problems. Bottom line, it appears the threads in the casing are straight threads and not pipe threads, And from what I've been told, straight threads are not water tight. So yea, that hole's purpose in this water pump is to leak. It can be worked around and knock wood, has been not leaking and working great for over 4K miles. I do check it quite often still though. Steven Kingsbury '55 BN1 On Dec 21, 2023, at 5:26 PM, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com> wrote: Does anyone know what the large (plugged) hole is for? On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 2:51 PM Bob Spidell < bspidell at comcast.net > wrote: Yep. Many/most pumps do have a hole--usually, looking like a casting flaw--over the shaft between the pulley and the seal. It will weep coolant if the seal is leaking, but this is a big, threaded hole--half-inch or so--probably for some other inlet. You can see it in this pic: https://bpnorthwest.com/austin-healey/water-pump-uprated-bn1-to-bn2/ Bastuck, I believe, is a German company (Josef is familiar with them). Also, IIRC the threads on the shaft are a bit short, I used a thinner jamb nut to get good purchase. Those threads may be SAE, but I don't recall. bs On 12/21/2023 9:54 AM, Michael Oritt wrote: Thanks Bob-- It is somewhat discouraging that what should be easy--sourcing a good and dependable water pump--seems like such a daunting task. As I mentioned I'd like to replace my present pump--I believe the "uprated" version which I installed in situ several years back and is working just fine--with a new, dependable one with the hope that it will give several years of good service, and while that should not be a big ask I don't think I should have the feeling that I am merely changing cabins on the Titanic. All that said, most feedback seems to point to the AH Spares unit and that's probably where I'll go unless someone turns my head around. You mention that the threads are metric and I assume you mean the one for the shutoff valve. I don't have one of those--never had--and since it is pretty expensive and I can simply shut off flow via the tap on the right side of the engine I think I'll stay without one. As to the hole on top of the pump--isn't that supposed to be a weephole designed to be left unplugged to serve as a warning that water is getting past the seal in the engine--or am I misunderstanding what you are referring to ? Best--Michael On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:31 AM Bob Spidell < bspidell at comcast.net > wrote: I bought the 'uprated' pump by Bastuck from BPNW (the AHSpares offering appears to be an unbranded version, or maybe a copy). The impeller appears to be somewhat more effective design, and the gap between the impeller and the pump body is, I think, smaller than OEM so would likely flow better. The threads on it won't fit the OEM valve--I think everything's metric on it--and it comes with a barbed nipple. As previously reported, the hole on the top of the pump--anyone know what that's for?--comes with a plug that doesn't plug; I tried everything to get it to seal, and ruined a pump in my attempts. I finally found a way, and may use it to seal an O/D drain plug if it continues to leak. It works fine, but I haven't had the car out on a hot day. I don't think coolant flow is the cause of overheating, esp. at idle; it's mainly due to lack of airflow through the engine bay, lack of a shroud, etc. I was so desperate I even tried a County pump, bought from Tom Monaco but sourced by Moss. The bearing felt rough and and I didn't install it; I returned it, and Tom had to jump through hoops to get a refund but he came through. Tom knows a rebuilder in Oregon who rebuilt an OEM pump for me, but it's currently riding in the boot. I don't have the invoice, but Tom would tell you if you gave him a call. Bob On 12/20/2023 10:40 PM, Hank Leach via Healeys wrote: When I did my 100, in 2015, I took the original pump to a very good machinist who fashioned a seal out of delrin and he figured out the correct spring pressure using an original NOS part and the pump works perfect to date. AH Spares professes that they have the best pump. Many other aftermarket makers, including County, make junk. Using the original parts can work if you have someone who understands pumps.The proper spring pressure is critical to prevent leaks and the seal being made out of delrin resists wear from vibration. This machinist worked for an agricultural supply company. Hank -------------------- From: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com> To: "Austin Healey" <healeys at autox.team.net> Sent: Wed, Dec 20 2023 06:35 PM Subject: [Healeys] Water pump recommendations The engine in my 100 will be out soon and I'd like to replace the present water pump PROVIDED there has been a scientific breakthrough in the manufacturing of this often problematic piece of equipment. Is anyone making or reconditioning pumps that offer a real improvement of what is generally offered to us? Best--Michael Oritt _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys Healeys at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michael.oritt at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys Healeys at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/airtightproductions at icloud.com
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From healeyray at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 22 16:49:44 2023
From: healeyray at yahoo.com (Ray Juncal)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 23:49:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>

Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
ThanksRay



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From britishauto at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 08:20:14 2023
From: britishauto at gmail.com (Jake V)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:20:14 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>

The 40520 is the M.

Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.

Jake

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <
healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way
> to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
> Thanks
> Ray
>
>
> [image: Inline image]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com
>
>
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From britishauto at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 08:22:06 2023
From: britishauto at gmail.com (Jake V)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:22:06 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAACo9bCQe3jKKhAoSYbqw8dy0xWt8iKZvse95gcjOHRU0Czt_w@mail.gmail.com>

Hopefully it shows up this time.

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:20 AM Jake V <britishauto at gmail.com> wrote:

> The 40520 is the M.
>
> Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.
>
> Jake
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way
>> to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
>> Thanks
>> Ray
>>
>>
>> [image: Inline image]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com
>>
>>
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From manifold at telus.net  Sat Dec 23 10:25:32 2023
From: manifold at telus.net (Harold Manifold)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:25:32 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>

Ray,

I am not an expert on the 100M by any means but I do have this AH
Distributor Database document. This document lists two distributors for the
100M.

I trust this helps... Harold


On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:52?AM Jake V <britishauto at gmail.com> wrote:

> The 40520 is the M.
>
> Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.
>
> Jake
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way
>> to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
>> Thanks
>> Ray
>>
>>
>> [image: Inline image]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/manifold at telus.net
>
>
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From cnaarndt at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 10:57:16 2023
From: cnaarndt at gmail.com (Curtis Arndt)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:57:16 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJKrNeQ4vp4AeueeFa5a4sBqwOB0HzEbgPeqSyBBFxBq+Xs1Nw@mail.gmail.com>

Ray,

The 40320 A/B distributor is for an early standard BN1/2 with the lever
advance.

The 40520A is the BN2 "M" distributor for a later car with the spring
advance.

Cheers,

Curt

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 9:11?AM Jake V <britishauto at gmail.com> wrote:

> The 40520 is the M.
>
> Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.
>
> Jake
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way
>> to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
>> Thanks
>> Ray
>>
>>
>> [image: Inline image]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
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> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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From boyracer466 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 14:02:30 2023
From: boyracer466 at gmail.com (richard mayor)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:02:30 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34962A55-1E6E-450F-B2A5-ECE4C88D08AC@gmail.com>

Correct me if I?m wrong, but it appears to me that the only real difference in a BN1/2 distributor and the 100M version is the advance curve as determined by the vacuum cannister.

Richard Mayor
boyracer466 at gmail.com



> On Dec 23, 2023, at 9:25 AM, Harold Manifold via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Ray,
> 
> I am not an expert on the 100M by any means but I do have this AH Distributor Database document. This document lists two distributors for the 100M.
> 
> I trust this helps... Harold
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:52?AM Jake V <britishauto at gmail.com <mailto:britishauto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> The 40520 is the M.
>> 
>> Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.
>> 
>> Jake
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>> Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
>>> Thanks
>>> Ray
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>> 
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>> 
>>> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net <http://team.net/> http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>> 
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>> 
>> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/manifold at telus.net
>> 
> <Distributor Data Base w  diagrams.pdf>_______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net <http://team.net/> http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> 
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
> 
> Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/boyracer466 at gmail.com

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From britishauto at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 14:08:45 2023
From: britishauto at gmail.com (Jake V)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 16:08:45 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <34962A55-1E6E-450F-B2A5-ECE4C88D08AC@gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <34962A55-1E6E-450F-B2A5-ECE4C88D08AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAACo9bCQo3TGDM+8YL6ujZe1Db7xts=iiSnz4qHtVESOWTjwew@mail.gmail.com>

The vacuum advance and the mechanical advance springs are different.

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 4:02 PM richard mayor <boyracer466 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Correct me if I?m wrong, but it appears to me that the only real
> difference in a BN1/2 distributor and the 100M version is the advance curve
> as determined by the vacuum cannister.
>
> Richard Mayor
> boyracer466 at gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2023, at 9:25 AM, Harold Manifold via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> Ray,
>
> I am not an expert on the 100M by any means but I do have this AH
> Distributor Database document. This document lists two distributors for the
> 100M.
>
> I trust this helps... Harold
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:52?AM Jake V <britishauto at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The 40520 is the M.
>>
>> Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.
>>
>> Jake
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way
>>> to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
>>> Thanks
>>> Ray
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: Inline image]
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>
>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net <http://team.net/> http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/manifold at telus.net
>>
>> <Distributor Data Base w  diagrams.pdf>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net <http://team.net/> http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/boyracer466 at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From boyracer466 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 14:23:38 2023
From: boyracer466 at gmail.com (richard mayor)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:23:38 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2B7403F7-FA41-42C8-BA91-BA6BF73C2ED0@gmail.com>

So with different springs and a different vacuum canister you can effectively create a 100M distributor?

Richard Mayor
boyracer466 at gmail.com



> On Dec 23, 2023, at 9:25 AM, Harold Manifold via Healeys <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> <Distributor Data Base w  diagrams.pdf>

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From britishauto at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 15:13:29 2023
From: britishauto at gmail.com (Jake V)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 17:13:29 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <2B7403F7-FA41-42C8-BA91-BA6BF73C2ED0@gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2B7403F7-FA41-42C8-BA91-BA6BF73C2ED0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAACo9bCCsDqcO=KPVfR-WK99sHQK2TvQXf2ghSEMDpT5NKaKbA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, though the correct springs are difficult to find. It's easier to send
a dizzy off to Jeff Schlemmer to have it curved to 100M specs.

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 4:23 PM richard mayor <boyracer466 at gmail.com> wrote:

> So with different springs and a different vacuum canister you can
> effectively create a 100M distributor?
>
> Richard Mayor
> boyracer466 at gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2023, at 9:25 AM, Harold Manifold via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> <Distributor Data Base w  diagrams.pdf>
>
>
>
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From michaelsalter at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 17:08:43 2023
From: michaelsalter at gmail.com (Michael Salter)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 19:08:43 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] New post on my blog. EFI for a BN2
Message-ID: <CAB3i7L+w0-J_vXNsUoRM=XqopBBG2mdMaeaSLvJWmnRV1ufxBw@mail.gmail.com>

https://precisionsportscar.com/electronic-fuel-injection-for-an-austin-healey-100/

M
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From michaelsalter at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 18:01:55 2023
From: michaelsalter at gmail.com (Michael Salter)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 20:01:55 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <34962A55-1E6E-450F-B2A5-ECE4C88D08AC@gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <34962A55-1E6E-450F-B2A5-ECE4C88D08AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3i7LJ9QDtHgdn_SySY4un92VYo9zowFKQ=1Xu1FceQC+DYVA@mail.gmail.com>

And the advance springs Richard.

M

On Sat., Dec. 23, 2023, 7:10 p.m. richard mayor, <boyracer466 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Correct me if I?m wrong, but it appears to me that the only real
> difference in a BN1/2 distributor and the 100M version is the advance curve
> as determined by the vacuum cannister.
>
> Richard Mayor
> boyracer466 at gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2023, at 9:25 AM, Harold Manifold via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> Ray,
>
> I am not an expert on the 100M by any means but I do have this AH
> Distributor Database document. This document lists two distributors for the
> 100M.
>
> I trust this helps... Harold
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:52?AM Jake V <britishauto at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The 40520 is the M.
>>
>> Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.
>>
>> Jake
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other way
>>> to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
>>> Thanks
>>> Ray
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: Inline image]
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>
>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net <http://team.net/> http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/manifold at telus.net
>>
>> <Distributor Data Base w  diagrams.pdf>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net <http://team.net/> http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/boyracer466 at gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michaelsalter at gmail.com
>
>
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From josef-eckert at t-online.de  Sun Dec 24 01:05:27 2023
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de (josef-eckert at t-online.de)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 09:05:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Healeys] 100-M parts
In-Reply-To: <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1713914280.4633374.1703288985335@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAACo9bBu=Puy7zj_KHxNzhbzT2Yeuo2T_miDY8aPTaBJV=fAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFP1XCCD6Zqq=hAcTsOyovCM4pFT=T4WHCdPrpvZ1kyHmV0_mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1703405127622.1676785.df938c2af539bd2d7eb42b23f6b9b8454c2f94c4@spica.telekom.de>

This distributer data chart (Data Base Document) is not complete for the 
100M distributers. Where can I find the complete set of data for mechanical 
advance for the 100M distributers?
Thanks,
Josef Eckert
Germany
 
 
 
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] 100-M parts
Datum: 2023-12-23T20:40:12+0100
Von: "Harold Manifold via Healeys" <healeys at autox.team.net>
An: "Jake V" <britishauto at gmail.com>
 
 
 
Ray,
 
I am not an expert on the 100M by any means but I do have this AH 
Distributor Database document. This document lists two distributors for the 
100M.
 
I trust this helps... Harold
 

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:52?AM Jake V <britishauto at gmail.com
<mailto:britishauto at gmail.com> > wrote:
  The 40520 is the M.
   
  Here's some info on ID'ing M cams beyond measuring the lobes.
   
  Jake

  On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:30 AM Ray Juncal via Healeys <
  healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net> > wrote:
    Which distributor number is the "M"? also is there a number or other
    way to ID a 100-M camshaft? I should know this stuff but memory fades.
    Thanks
    Ray
     
     
    [Inline image]
    _______________________________________________
    Support Team.Net<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
    Suggested annual donation  $12.75

    Archive:<http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys>
    <http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys>

    Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
    <http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys>


    Unsubscribe/Manage:
    <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/britishauto at gmail.com>

  _______________________________________________
  Support Team.Net<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
  Suggested annual donation  $12.75

  Archive:<http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys>
  <http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys>

  Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
  <http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys>


  Unsubscribe/Manage:
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?
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From eyera3000 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 19:52:36 2023
From: eyera3000 at gmail.com (i erbs)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:52:36 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Happy Holidays
Message-ID: <CABXhz8-B05EoVWv1zkE1ByNX8=L7Nn7FgMfYBdURgMMRdoE3xA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,
I want to wish you all a wonderful holiday and a happy new year. May your
Healey dreams come true/ I hope to be up to driving my car in 2024.
Cheers
Ira Erbs
Milwaukie,OR
      _______                                  _______
     (______ \____1959 BN4____/ _______)
         (_________________________)
          BT7 engine and disk brakes


1967 MGB  [image: MG]

A racing car is an animal with a thousand adjustments. Mario Andretti
Please excuse random auto corrects and misspelled words
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From airtightproductions at me.com  Sun Dec 24 22:04:49 2023
From: airtightproductions at me.com (Steven Kingsbury)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 05:04:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Healeys] Happy Holidays
In-Reply-To: <CABXhz8-B05EoVWv1zkE1ByNX8=L7Nn7FgMfYBdURgMMRdoE3xA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABXhz8-B05EoVWv1zkE1ByNX8=L7Nn7FgMfYBdURgMMRdoE3xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86905cbf-58c6-4664-b9d5-beac8ff6575a@me.com>

Ho! Ho! Ho! Ditto on what Ira said and here's to more cars being on the road in 2024! Make it grand! Steven Kingsbury '55 BN1 On Dec 24, 2023, at 7:29 PM, i erbs <eyera3000 at gmail.com> wrote: Hello all, I want to wish you all a wonderful holiday and a happy new year. May your Healey dreams come true/ I hope to be up to driving my car in 2024. Cheers Ira Erbs Milwaukie,OR _______ _______ (______ \____1959 BN4____/ _______) (_________________________) BT7 engine and disk brakes 1967 MGB A racing car is an animal with a thousand adjustments. Mario Andretti Please excuse random auto corrects and misspelled words _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys Healeys at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/airtightproductions at icloud.com
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From eyera3000 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 22:14:14 2023
From: eyera3000 at gmail.com (i erbs)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 21:14:14 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] Happy Holidays
In-Reply-To: <86905cbf-58c6-4664-b9d5-beac8ff6575a@me.com>
References: <CABXhz8-B05EoVWv1zkE1ByNX8=L7Nn7FgMfYBdURgMMRdoE3xA@mail.gmail.com>
 <86905cbf-58c6-4664-b9d5-beac8ff6575a@me.com>
Message-ID: <CABXhz88mVa8rt9Z26+gmiL04hypF506KP90TnDaoBeEj3rUowQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ira Erbs
Milwaukie, OR
1959 Austin Healey 100-6


On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 9:04?PM Steven Kingsbury <airtightproductions at me.com>
wrote:

> Ho! Ho! Ho! Ditto on what Ira said and here's to more cars being on the
> road in 2024! Make it grand!
> Steven Kingsbury
> '55 BN1
>
> On Dec 24, 2023, at 7:29 PM, i erbs <eyera3000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
> I want to wish you all a wonderful holiday and a happy new year. May your
> Healey dreams come true/ I hope to be up to driving my car in 2024.
> Cheers
> Ira Erbs
> Milwaukie,OR
>       _______                                  _______
>      (______ \____1959 BN4____/ _______)
>          (_________________________)
>           BT7 engine and disk brakes
>
>
> 1967 MGB  [image: MG]
>
> A racing car is an animal with a thousand adjustments. Mario Andretti
> Please excuse random auto corrects and misspelled words
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/airtightproductions at icloud.com
>
>
>
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From healeyrik at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 13:52:35 2023
From: healeyrik at gmail.com (HealeyRick)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 15:52:35 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Message-ID: <CAGfzsZf4E03rdNrsD11CKTXSexZThrp85R+N146-HdR8GoeSaw@mail.gmail.com>

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1956-austin-healey-100m-bn2-roadster-27-2/

Rick Neville
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Dec 26 04:45:57 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <CAGfzsZf4E03rdNrsD11CKTXSexZThrp85R+N146-HdR8GoeSaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGfzsZf4E03rdNrsD11CKTXSexZThrp85R+N146-HdR8GoeSaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b@comcast.net>

The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried 
in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It appears to 
me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently 
with BaT's blessing.


On 12/25/2023 12:52 PM, HealeyRick via Healeys wrote:
> https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1956-austin-healey-100m-bn2-roadster-27-2/
>
> Rick Neville
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From stmiller96 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 27 06:13:37 2023
From: stmiller96 at hotmail.com (S and T Miller)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 13:13:37 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Message-ID: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Bob, I agree with you. And it seems he is trying to cast some doubt on it being a BN1 chassis. Saying the firewall is a combination of both BN1 and BN2 is plain false. Since I was the one who showed him in person why it was a BN1 chassis he wanted to use my name saying we "believe" its a BN1 chassis,  and I replied that "believe" doesn't categorize my opinion. That everything points to being a BN1 chassis and nothing to a BN2.
Intesting note on the added restoration photos, #311 clearly shows the cut out BN1 gearbox mount in the restoration photo. Odd it is on a painted frame, but the BN2 one must have been welded in later. I'd thought maybe it was of a different frame, but the front frame extensions are missing in the pictured one as we'll, so probably not.

I realize he is trying to sell a car that he bought that someone misrepresented to him,  but I kinda feel not so great about his representation of the car on BAT. Again it is a nice car overall.

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
To: healeys at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried
in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It appears to
me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently
with BaT's blessing

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From healeyrik at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 09:57:04 2023
From: healeyrik at gmail.com (HealeyRick)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:57:04 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAGfzsZeG=WgrROsP_nktOUUUeFYsfudUpdw4WHUeSThud69SDw@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting question about misrepresentation. Who misrepresented what to
whom? Did the restorer misrepresent a 100M with a BN1 frame and possible
replacement motor to the original buyer who was clueless or was it the
original buyer that was doing the misrepresenting? There's probably some
grist for a lawyer's mill in all this. (retired lawyer, I can't help
thinking this way) Maybe I should start one of those "The Healey Lawyer"
columns in the *Marque?*

*Rick Neville, aka "HealeyRick"*

On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 8:41?AM S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Bob, I agree with you. And it seems he is trying to cast some doubt on it
> being a BN1 chassis. Saying the firewall is a combination of both BN1 and
> BN2 is plain false. Since I was the one who showed him in person why it was
> a BN1 chassis he wanted to use my name saying we "believe" its a BN1
> chassis,  and I replied that "believe" doesn't categorize my opinion. That
> everything points to being a BN1 chassis and nothing to a BN2.
> Intesting note on the added restoration photos, #311 clearly shows the cut
> out BN1 gearbox mount in the restoration photo. Odd it is on a painted
> frame, but the BN2 one must have been welded in later. I'd thought maybe it
> was of a different frame, but the front frame extensions are missing in the
> pictured one as we'll, so probably not.
>
> I realize he is trying to sell a car that he bought that someone
> misrepresented to him,  but I kinda feel not so great about his
> representation of the car on BAT. Again it is a nice car overall.
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> To: healeys at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
> Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried
> in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It appears to
> me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently
> with BaT's blessing
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
> drive."
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>
> Healeys at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
>
>
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From stmiller96 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 27 10:49:58 2023
From: stmiller96 at hotmail.com (S and T Miller)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 17:49:58 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <CAGfzsZeG=WgrROsP_nktOUUUeFYsfudUpdw4WHUeSThud69SDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAGfzsZeG=WgrROsP_nktOUUUeFYsfudUpdw4WHUeSThud69SDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PH7P221MB1007F76EBF8C61034DD099A2D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Very true. From talking with Mike, I really don't think he initially knew about the chassis and possible motor/ carb questions. He really doesn't have a good understanding of Healeys. And I even can understand to a point that he might be trying to even convince himself that it might be more than it actually is. But how he has represented it after receiving a good assessment,  just sits a bit wrong with me.

Anyway it may never be known who or when the "conversion" took place. But the idea that the front cross bracing was bent to look like a M cam was installed, and the two under the dash BN1 OD relay holes (4) being so carefully concealed, tells me someone was trying to make it look legit.

And I quess it just will be determined by the hammer price how much of it really matters. It is a sharp looking car.


The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
________________________________
From: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 11:57 AM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
Cc: bspidell at comcast.net <bspidell at comcast.net>; healeys at autox.team.net <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT

Interesting question about misrepresentation. Who misrepresented what to whom? Did the restorer misrepresent a 100M with a BN1 frame and possible replacement motor to the original buyer who was clueless or was it the original buyer that was doing the misrepresenting? There's probably some grist for a lawyer's mill in all this. (retired lawyer, I can't help thinking this way) Maybe I should start one of those "The Healey Lawyer" columns in the Marque?

Rick Neville, aka "HealeyRick"

On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 8:41?AM S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com<mailto:stmiller96 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Bob, I agree with you. And it seems he is trying to cast some doubt on it being a BN1 chassis. Saying the firewall is a combination of both BN1 and BN2 is plain false. Since I was the one who showed him in person why it was a BN1 chassis he wanted to use my name saying we "believe" its a BN1 chassis,  and I replied that "believe" doesn't categorize my opinion. That everything points to being a BN1 chassis and nothing to a BN2.
Intesting note on the added restoration photos, #311 clearly shows the cut out BN1 gearbox mount in the restoration photo. Odd it is on a painted frame, but the BN2 one must have been welded in later. I'd thought maybe it was of a different frame, but the front frame extensions are missing in the pictured one as we'll, so probably not.

I realize he is trying to sell a car that he bought that someone misrepresented to him,  but I kinda feel not so great about his representation of the car on BAT. Again it is a nice car overall.

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
To: healeys at autox.team.net<mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net<mailto:229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried
in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It appears to
me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently
with BaT's blessing

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.75

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys

Healeys at autox.team.net<mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Wed Dec 27 11:21:29 2023
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 10:21:29 -0800
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB1007F76EBF8C61034DD099A2D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAGfzsZeG=WgrROsP_nktOUUUeFYsfudUpdw4WHUeSThud69SDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH7P221MB1007F76EBF8C61034DD099A2D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1011c77c-cb73-41a2-8090-3e9854e77d13@comcast.net>

I haven't paid much attention to BaT, except to check out interesting 
Healeys that come up and I only created an account to comment on this 
car. But, from what I've seen I think it's a little fishy that a couple 
large bids--$50K and $75K ($75K should be top dollar for this car 
IMO)--came in fairly quickly. From watching a few auctions it seemed 
there would be a few lowball bids, then a few more would work the price 
up but the serious would-be buyers would wait and watch then throw a 
potentially winning bid in at the last few minutes, if not the last few 
seconds. What do they call it when a seller's buddies throw in a large 
bids to gin up apparent interest; 'shill bidding?'

It appears the seller is working on a "You didn't read the fine print 
(watch the video); it's on you" defense. I'm still surprised Bill 
certified this as an M;? 'LeMans conversion' probably would have been 
more appropriate.

Bob

On 12/27/2023 9:49 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
> Very true. From talking with Mike, I really don't think he initially 
> knew about the chassis and possible motor/ carb questions. He really 
> doesn't have a good understanding of Healeys. And I even can 
> understand to a point that he might be trying to even convince himself 
> that it might be more than it actually is. But how he has represented 
> it after receiving a good assessment,? just sits a bit wrong with me.
>
> Anyway it may never be known who or when the "conversion" took place. 
> But the idea that the front cross bracing was bent to look like a M 
> cam was installed, and the two under the dash BN1 OD relay holes (4) 
> being so carefully concealed, tells me someone was trying to make it 
> look legit.
>
> And I quess it just will be determined by the hammer price how much of 
> it really matters. It is a sharp looking car.
>
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a 
> test drive."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 27, 2023 11:57 AM
> *To:* S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* bspidell at comcast.net <bspidell at comcast.net>; 
> healeys at autox.team.net <healeys at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
> Interesting question about misrepresentation. Who misrepresented what 
> to whom? Did the restorer misrepresent a 100M with a BN1 frame and 
> possible replacement motor to the original buyer who was clueless or 
> was it the original buyer that was doing the misrepresenting? There's 
> probably some grist for a lawyer's mill in all this. (retired lawyer, 
> I can't help thinking this way) Maybe I should start one of those "The 
> Healey Lawyer" columns in the /Marque?/
> /
> /
> /Rick Neville, aka "HealeyRick"/
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 8:41?AM S and T Miller 
> <stmiller96 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>     Bob, I agree with you. And it seems he is trying to cast some
>     doubt on it being a BN1 chassis. Saying the firewall is a
>     combination of both BN1 and BN2 is plain false. Since I was the
>     one who showed him in person why it was a BN1 chassis he wanted to
>     use my name saying we "believe" its a BN1 chassis,? and I replied
>     that "believe" doesn't categorize my opinion. That everything
>     points to being a BN1 chassis and nothing to a BN2.
>     Intesting note on the added restoration photos, #311 clearly shows
>     the cut out BN1 gearbox mount in the restoration photo. Odd it is
>     on a painted frame, but the BN2 one must have been welded in
>     later. I'd thought maybe it was of a different frame, but the
>     front frame extensions are missing in the pictured one as we'll,
>     so probably not.
>
>     I realize he is trying to sell a car that he bought that someone
>     misrepresented to him,? but I kinda feel not so great about his
>     representation of the car on BAT. Again it is a nice car overall.
>
>     Message: 2
>     Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
>     From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>     To: healeys at autox.team.net
>     Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
>     Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
>     The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried
>     in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It
>     appears to
>     me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently
>     with BaT's blessing
>
>     The Millers
>
>     "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>     test drive."
>
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From josef-eckert at t-online.de  Wed Dec 27 12:58:41 2023
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de (josef-eckert at t-online.de)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 20:58:41 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB1007F76EBF8C61034DD099A2D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAGfzsZeG=WgrROsP_nktOUUUeFYsfudUpdw4WHUeSThud69SDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH7P221MB1007F76EBF8C61034DD099A2D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1703707121344.1785957.b13baa8ed808694520d241f5aeae2b2616a8c0f8@spica.telekom.de>

To understand it. What is the difference between this 100M car on offer and 
a 100 BN1 modified with a 100 Le Mans kit, which has been given a different 
identity through a swapped chassis number?
For me both cars are very similar.
 
Josef Eckert
Germany
 
 
 
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Datum: 2023-12-27T20:48:57+0100
Von: "S and T Miller" <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
 
 
 
 
Very true. From talking with Mike, I really don't think he initially knew 
about the chassis and possible motor/ carb questions. He really doesn't 
have a good understanding of Healeys. And I even can understand to a point 
that he might be trying to even convince himself that it might be more than 
it actually is. But how he has represented it after receiving a good 
assessment,  just sits a bit wrong with me. 
 
Anyway it may never be known who or when the "conversion" took place. But 
the idea that the front cross bracing was bent to look like a M cam was 
installed, and the two under the dash BN1 OD relay holes (4) being so 
carefully concealed, tells me someone was trying to make it look legit. 
 
And I quess it just will be determined by the hammer price how much of it 
really matters. It is a sharp looking car. 
 
 
The Millers
 
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test 
drive."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 11:57 AM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
Cc: bspidell at comcast.net <bspidell at comcast.net>; healeys at autox.team.net 
<healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
 
Interesting question about misrepresentation. Who misrepresented what to 
whom? Did the restorer misrepresent a 100M with a BN1 frame and possible 
replacement motor to the original buyer who was clueless or was it the 
original buyer that was doing the misrepresenting? There's probably some 
grist for a lawyer's mill in all this. (retired lawyer, I can't help 
thinking this way) Maybe I should start one of those "The Healey Lawyer" 
columns in the Marque?
 
Rick Neville, aka "HealeyRick"

On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 8:41?AM S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com
<mailto:stmiller96 at hotmail.com> > wrote:
  Bob, I agree with you. And it seems he is trying to cast some doubt on it
  being a BN1 chassis. Saying the firewall is a combination of both BN1 and
  BN2 is plain false. Since I was the one who showed him in person why it
  was a BN1 chassis he wanted to use my name saying we "believe" its a BN1
  chassis,  and I replied that "believe" doesn't categorize my opinion.
  That everything points to being a BN1 chassis and nothing to a BN2. 
  Intesting note on the added restoration photos, #311 clearly shows the
  cut out BN1 gearbox mount in the restoration photo. Odd it is on a
  painted frame, but the BN2 one must have been welded in later. I'd
  thought maybe it was of a different frame, but the front frame extensions
  are missing in the pictured one as we'll, so probably not.
   
  I realize he is trying to sell a car that he bought that someone
  misrepresented to him,  but I kinda feel not so great about his
  representation of the car on BAT. Again it is a nice car overall. 

  Message: 2
  Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
  From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> >
  To: healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
  Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
  Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net
  <mailto:229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net> >
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

  The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried
  in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It appears to
  me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently
  with BaT's blessing
   
  The Millers
   
  "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
  drive."
  _______________________________________________
  Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
  <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
  Suggested annual donation  $12.75

  Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys> 
  http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
  <http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys>

  Healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:Healeys at autox.team.net>
  <http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys>


  Unsubscribe/Manage: 
  http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
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From nstbennett at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 22:48:04 2023
From: nstbennett at gmail.com (N.S. Bennett)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 22:48:04 -0700
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <f8d8910f-ee49-4d53-b71a-7e2c0c1e402f@email.android.com>
References: <935cea9f-447d-4e61-91b9-5d47a3a0ae99@email.android.com>
 <f8d8910f-ee49-4d53-b71a-7e2c0c1e402f@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAEcLKwgai0Hq-v7jRGo0xOBsniBRdQhbxNDfE8wFa7PKyzrguA@mail.gmail.com>

It's worth noting (to Bob's earlier point - re: bidders), that one of the
current bidders was "in" during the prior auction and his current bid (the
high bid) is less than his previous bids in the past auction. Maybe a
"shill" nonetheless but worthy of mentioning.

As it relates to the restorer of this car and what may (or may not) have
transpired during the restoration, there is a fair bit of commentary in the
prior auction about what may have been commonplace during restorations
performed by this outfit. Worth visiting the old listing's comments with a
critical eye...

Nate B.
'66 BJ8
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From stmiller96 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 28 05:23:50 2023
From: stmiller96 at hotmail.com (S and T Miller)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:23:50 +0000
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <1703707121344.1785957.b13baa8ed808694520d241f5aeae2b2616a8c0f8@spica.telekom.de>
References: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAGfzsZeG=WgrROsP_nktOUUUeFYsfudUpdw4WHUeSThud69SDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH7P221MB1007F76EBF8C61034DD099A2D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1703707121344.1785957.b13baa8ed808694520d241f5aeae2b2616a8c0f8@spica.telekom.de>
Message-ID: <PH7P221MB10074E13911172DF968734F8D49EA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

The car on offer does have some valid M parts. Vin tag, cockpit trim, boot. The engine I'd put a question mark next to because of the repro tag, possibly incorrect carbs and incorrect distributor. I'm not really familiar with original cold air boxes, but it did appear old.
I also felt IMO that the bonnet looked suspiciously clean and fresh. The boot showed no evidence of the prop mount being removed and the boot itself showed some signs of aging prior to restoration (namely some pitting). I can't say that same about the bonnet in terms of the aging. The area where the numbers are stamped has a support behind it. So in theory the number could be cut out of an original bonnet and grafted into another new bonnet, but this is just speculation and would take carefully scutiny to determine.


The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
________________________________
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 2:58 PM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>; HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
Cc: healeys at autox.team.net <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: AW: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT


To understand it. What is the difference between this 100M car on offer and a 100 BN1 modified with a 100 Le Mans kit, which has been given a different identity through a swapped chassis number?

For me both cars are very similar.



Josef Eckert

Germany







-----Original-Nachricht-----

Betreff: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT

Datum: 2023-12-27T20:48:57+0100

Von: "S and T Miller" <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>

An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>








Very true. From talking with Mike, I really don't think he initially knew about the chassis and possible motor/ carb questions. He really doesn't have a good understanding of Healeys. And I even can understand to a point that he might be trying to even convince himself that it might be more than it actually is. But how he has represented it after receiving a good assessment,  just sits a bit wrong with me.

Anyway it may never be known who or when the "conversion" took place. But the idea that the front cross bracing was bent to look like a M cam was installed, and the two under the dash BN1 OD relay holes (4) being so carefully concealed, tells me someone was trying to make it look legit.

And I quess it just will be determined by the hammer price how much of it really matters. It is a sharp looking car.


The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
________________________________
From: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 11:57 AM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
Cc: bspidell at comcast.net <bspidell at comcast.net>; healeys at autox.team.net <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT

Interesting question about misrepresentation. Who misrepresented what to whom? Did the restorer misrepresent a 100M with a BN1 frame and possible replacement motor to the original buyer who was clueless or was it the original buyer that was doing the misrepresenting? There's probably some grist for a lawyer's mill in all this. (retired lawyer, I can't help thinking this way) Maybe I should start one of those "The Healey Lawyer" columns in the Marque?

Rick Neville, aka "HealeyRick"

On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 8:41?AM S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com<mailto:stmiller96 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Bob, I agree with you. And it seems he is trying to cast some doubt on it being a BN1 chassis. Saying the firewall is a combination of both BN1 and BN2 is plain false. Since I was the one who showed him in person why it was a BN1 chassis he wanted to use my name saying we "believe" its a BN1 chassis,  and I replied that "believe" doesn't categorize my opinion. That everything points to being a BN1 chassis and nothing to a BN2.
Intesting note on the added restoration photos, #311 clearly shows the cut out BN1 gearbox mount in the restoration photo. Odd it is on a painted frame, but the BN2 one must have been welded in later. I'd thought maybe it was of a different frame, but the front frame extensions are missing in the pictured one as we'll, so probably not.

I realize he is trying to sell a car that he bought that someone misrepresented to him,  but I kinda feel not so great about his representation of the car on BAT. Again it is a nice car overall.

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
To: healeys at autox.team.net<mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net<mailto:229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried
in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It appears to
me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently
with BaT's blessing

The Millers

"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test drive."
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From josef-eckert at t-online.de  Thu Dec 28 06:41:30 2023
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de (josef-eckert at t-online.de)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 14:41:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
In-Reply-To: <PH7P221MB10074E13911172DF968734F8D49EA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <PH7P221MB10073A1F942518655973C117D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAGfzsZeG=WgrROsP_nktOUUUeFYsfudUpdw4WHUeSThud69SDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH7P221MB1007F76EBF8C61034DD099A2D49FA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1703707121344.1785957.b13baa8ed808694520d241f5aeae2b2616a8c0f8@spica.telekom.de>
 <PH7P221MB10074E13911172DF968734F8D49EA@PH7P221MB1007.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1703770890664.1837374.0462b9e4f5b1673aaab6a08ca2a3e2c360b54b5e@spica.telekom.de>

So its a rebuilt BN1 and one used parts of a BN2 (100M) to complete it. At 
the end the one who repuilt it decided to swap the original VIN tag of the 
BN1 against the one of the perhaps scrapped 100M he used the parts of for 
his rebuild.
 
Josef Eckert
Germany
 
 
 
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Datum: 2023-12-28T13:23:57+0100
Von: "S and T Miller" <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
An: "josef-eckert at t-online.de" <josef-eckert at t-online.de>, "HealeyRick" 
<healeyrik at gmail.com>
 
 
 
 
The car on offer does have some valid M parts. Vin tag, cockpit trim, boot. 
The engine I'd put a question mark next to because of the repro tag, 
possibly incorrect carbs and incorrect distributor. I'm not really familiar 
with original cold air boxes, but it did appear old. 
I also felt IMO that the bonnet looked suspiciously clean and fresh. The 
boot showed no evidence of the prop mount being removed and the boot itself 
showed some signs of aging prior to restoration (namely some pitting). I 
can't say that same about the bonnet in terms of the aging. The area where 
the numbers are stamped has a support behind it. So in theory the number 
could be cut out of an original bonnet and grafted into another new bonnet, 
but this is just speculation and would take carefully scutiny to determine. 
 
 
 
The Millers
 
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test 
drive."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: josef-eckert at t-online.de <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 2:58 PM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>; HealeyRick 
<healeyrik at gmail.com>
Cc: healeys at autox.team.net <healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: AW: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
 
To understand it. What is the difference between this 100M car on offer and 
a 100 BN1 modified with a 100 Le Mans kit, which has been given a different 
identity through a swapped chassis number?
For me both cars are very similar.
 
Josef Eckert
Germany
 
 
 
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
Datum: 2023-12-27T20:48:57+0100
Von: "S and T Miller" <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
 
 
 
 
Very true. From talking with Mike, I really don't think he initially knew 
about the chassis and possible motor/ carb questions. He really doesn't 
have a good understanding of Healeys. And I even can understand to a point 
that he might be trying to even convince himself that it might be more than 
it actually is. But how he has represented it after receiving a good 
assessment,  just sits a bit wrong with me. 
 
Anyway it may never be known who or when the "conversion" took place. But 
the idea that the front cross bracing was bent to look like a M cam was 
installed, and the two under the dash BN1 OD relay holes (4) being so 
carefully concealed, tells me someone was trying to make it look legit. 
 
And I quess it just will be determined by the hammer price how much of it 
really matters. It is a sharp looking car. 
 
 
The Millers
 
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test 
drive."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 11:57 AM
To: S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com>
Cc: bspidell at comcast.net <bspidell at comcast.net>; healeys at autox.team.net 
<healeys at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
 
Interesting question about misrepresentation. Who misrepresented what to 
whom? Did the restorer misrepresent a 100M with a BN1 frame and possible 
replacement motor to the original buyer who was clueless or was it the 
original buyer that was doing the misrepresenting? There's probably some 
grist for a lawyer's mill in all this. (retired lawyer, I can't help 
thinking this way) Maybe I should start one of those "The Healey Lawyer" 
columns in the Marque?
 
Rick Neville, aka "HealeyRick"

On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 8:41?AM S and T Miller <stmiller96 at hotmail.com
<mailto:stmiller96 at hotmail.com> > wrote:
  Bob, I agree with you. And it seems he is trying to cast some doubt on it
  being a BN1 chassis. Saying the firewall is a combination of both BN1 and
  BN2 is plain false. Since I was the one who showed him in person why it
  was a BN1 chassis he wanted to use my name saying we "believe" its a BN1
  chassis,  and I replied that "believe" doesn't categorize my opinion.
  That everything points to being a BN1 chassis and nothing to a BN2. 
  Intesting note on the added restoration photos, #311 clearly shows the
  cut out BN1 gearbox mount in the restoration photo. Odd it is on a
  painted frame, but the BN2 one must have been welded in later. I'd
  thought maybe it was of a different frame, but the front frame extensions
  are missing in the pictured one as we'll, so probably not.
   
  I realize he is trying to sell a car that he bought that someone
  misrepresented to him,  but I kinda feel not so great about his
  representation of the car on BAT. Again it is a nice car overall. 

  Message: 2
  Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 03:45:57 -0800
  From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> >
  To: healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
  Subject: Re: [Healeys] 100M Back on BaT
  Message-ID: <229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net
  <mailto:229b7fa6-3b3a-4221-b587-227de3ae0c2b at comcast.net> >
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

  The expos? of the incorrect frame isn't stated in the text, but buried
  in the video according to a commenter (I didn't watch it). It appears to
  me the seller is attempting to straddle an ethical fence, apparently
  with BaT's blessing
   
  The Millers
   
  "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
  drive."
  _______________________________________________
  Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
  <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
  Suggested annual donation  $12.75

  Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys> 
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  Unsubscribe/Manage: 
  http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik at gmail.com
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From rfbegani at gmail.com  Thu Dec 28 09:09:06 2023
From: rfbegani at gmail.com (rfbegani at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:09:06 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Beloved Roadster Factory Declared A Total Loss After
 Christmas Day Fire Engulfs Building FYI
Message-ID: <004e01da39a8$2f1bf020$8d53d060$@gmail.com>

I thought you would be interested in this story I found on MSN: Beloved
Roadster Factory Declared A Total Loss After Christmas Day Fire Engulfs
Building -
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/beloved-roadster-factory-declared-a-total-
loss-after-christmas-day-fire-engulfs-building/ar-AA1m7hpz?ocid=socialshare
<https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/beloved-roadster-factory-declared-a-total
-loss-after-christmas-day-fire-engulfs-building/ar-AA1m7hpz?ocid=socialshare
&cvid=760a5b61ba0745f4bfa23340ce1fc6ad&ei=73>
&cvid=760a5b61ba0745f4bfa23340ce1fc6ad&ei=73

 

Happy New Year News

 

Bob Begani

67 BJ8

 

 

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From dmasucci at charter.net  Thu Dec 28 14:29:15 2023
From: dmasucci at charter.net (David Masucci)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:29:15 -0500
Subject: [Healeys] Steering box Belleville springs
In-Reply-To: <CAB3i7L+yrwkeTmFSV_86xz37CLmmk0=pCMCuLyDFG=sreD712Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB3i7L+yrwkeTmFSV_86xz37CLmmk0=pCMCuLyDFG=sreD712Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDCE6AF0-69A1-42C9-BE7C-6485680DB401@charter.net>

Hi All,

I have a question in regard to vinyl-covered wood trim on a BJ8 top frame.  I am trying to determine the original color of the vinyl. I cleaned up samples from two different cars, and the vinyl looked to my eyes as off white. The closest color I can find on the Moss site is ?honey tan?. 

Any suggestions or comments?

Thanks in advance.

Dave

64 BJ8
72 XJ6


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