[Healeys] BN2 Caster Angle

Bob Spidell bspidell at comcast.net
Wed Jan 6 19:46:13 MST 2021 

We can agree to disagree.

I promise I'll try to figure out how a mechanism designed to move 
up-and-down with the suspension--offering minor resistance when they're 
working, and none when they're not--support the weight of the car.

On 1/6/2021 12:04 PM, Bluehealey wrote:
> Okay Bob.
> As you wish. However, before I sign off, take the nut off the trunnion 
> and see the result (jack stand under the spline hub - latest pic).
> Just trying to help.
>
> Alan - from my iPad
>
>> On 6 Jan 2021, at 19:25, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> It’s a side load on the shock.
>> <image0.jpeg>
>>
>>> On Jan 6, 2021, at 10:38 AM, Bluehealey <bluehealey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Sorry Bob - you’re still not gettin’ it.
>>> The important bit is -
>>>>>
>>>>> the weight of the car is carried on the spring and bottom wishbone.
>>>>>
>>> That is why your jack under the pan lifts the car.
>>> Then -
>>>>>
>>>>> The wheel and stub axle is bearing upwards, LIFTING the car 
>>>>> through the top trunnion using the kingpin as a pull-rod to the 
>>>>> bottom wishbone and spring.
>>>>>
>>> If you wish to test this, remove a wheel and place a jack stand 
>>> under the spline hub to support the car.  Now unwind the the top nut 
>>> of the kingpin a few turns and observe the increasing gap at the 
>>> bottom the kingpin.  If you undo the nut all the way you will drop 
>>> the car on the deck.
>>>
>>> Alan - from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On 6 Jan 2021, at 17:05, Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  re: "The whole front end is sat on those two Oilite bronze thrust 
>>>> washers."
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Proof: I have placed my cars on jackstands under the rear 
>>>> springs and front trunnions and R&R'd their shock absorbers several 
>>>> times (Armstrong shocks are a PITA, but that's a different rant). 
>>>> Risky? Maybe, but done right the risk is manageable. My BJ8 rode 
>>>> through a Richter 5+ earthquake in this state in San Jose a few 
>>>> years ago; obviously, a flat, rugged concrete surface is required 
>>>> (note messing with massive springs under compression has risks as 
>>>> well). My BN2 is now in this state while I wait for front shock 
>>>> rebuilds (though I have the jackstands backed-up by a QuickJack 
>>>> under the chassis).
>>>>
>>>> Though there is a very specific gap called-for for the top 
>>>> trunnion, the only reason I can see is too small a gap might cause 
>>>> some binding--leading to even more steering effort--and too large 
>>>> could result in the shock and bushing/bearing taking a beating.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/6/2021 7:39 AM, bluehealey at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Fred.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are not the first person that I have encountered with this 
>>>>> confusion. It is usually held by those that are very familiar with 
>>>>> pre-war cars and beam axles. In those cars the steering/stub axle 
>>>>> is captured between fixed top & bottom ‘ears’ on the end of the 
>>>>> beam.  The weight of the car bears down through the top ear onto 
>>>>> the swivel axle. All fairly obvious.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of our cars, with top and bottom wishbones, the weight 
>>>>> of the car is carried on the spring and bottom wishbone. The wheel 
>>>>> and stub axle is bearing upwards, LIFTING the car through the top 
>>>>> trunnion using the kingpin as a pull-rod to the bottom wishbone 
>>>>> and spring.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole front end is sat on those two Oilite bronze thrust 
>>>>> washers. Any reduction in friction here pays dividends – 
>>>>> especially in a 6-cylinder car with even more weight over the wheels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe others can come up with a clearer explanation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers.
>>>>>
>>>>> AlanB
>>>>>
>>>>> <image001.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Fred Wescoe <fredwescoe at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* 06 January 2021 15:14
>>>>> *To:* Bluehealey <bluehealey at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* Team.net <lawrence.swift at gmail.com>; Ahealey help 
>>>>> <healeys at autox.team.net>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] BN2 Caster Angle
>>>>>
>>>>> Listers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have looked at these top trunnion bearing kits over the years 
>>>>> and considered installing them. However, I simply cannot get my 
>>>>> head wrapped around why replacing bearings at the top of the 
>>>>> kingpin would reduce the weight of the car and improve steering. 
>>>>> It seems to me that all the weight of the car is pressed against 
>>>>> the bottom of the kingpin.  To me, it seems replacing the top 
>>>>> bearing would have no effect on the steering effort.  Can someone 
>>>>> explain in simple language why this kit would work?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, mystified,
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred
>>>>>
>>>>> 66 BJ8
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:49 AM Bluehealey <bluehealey at gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:bluehealey at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>     These are the ones.
>>>>>
>>>>>     https://www.ahspares.co.uk/austin-healey/big-healey/suspension-front/top-trunnion-bearing-kit-pair.aspx
>>>>>     <https://www.ahspares.co.uk/austin-healey/big-healey/suspension-front/top-trunnion-bearing-kit-pair.aspx>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Well worth doing.
>>>>>
>>>>>     The other often overlooked source of heavy steering is the
>>>>>     Steering Idler. It is rarely lubricated, has no real reservoir
>>>>>     for oil, and a poor seal at the bottom. I suggest releasing
>>>>>     the ball joints that connect to the drop arm to check it for
>>>>>     stiffness. Complete removal of the idler isn’t a difficult job
>>>>>     and is the best way to clean and lubricate.
>>>>>
>>>>>     The caster is pretty good on these cars (the initial design
>>>>>     was good). Camber could go from positive to negative to be
>>>>>     more compatible with radial tyres. Also check and minimise
>>>>>     toe-in. This has a radical impact on steering feel when wrong
>>>>>     (in either direction).
>>>>>
>>>>>     If after all that you still have problems, then go for the
>>>>>     caster changes you have in mind and tell us about your
>>>>>     findings. The Team may learn something.
>>>>>
>>>>>     The only other aspect that seems to vary from car to car is
>>>>>     bump steer. Some can be horrible on fast bumpies and others
>>>>>     are on rails.  I’ve never seen a decent treatise on dealing
>>>>>     with this on our Big Healeys.
>>>>>     Have fun.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Alan - from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         On 6 Jan 2021, at 13:35, Team.net
>>>>>         <lawrence.swift at gmail.com
>>>>>         <mailto:lawrence.swift at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         When I rebuilt the front end on my BT7, I had the trust
>>>>>         bearings at the top of the kingpin replaced with bearings
>>>>>         - made a huge difference in the ease of steering.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>             On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:36 AM, Bob Spidell
>>>>>             <bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net>>
>>>>>             wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>             re: "The other two are factory fixed and too dangerous
>>>>>             to play with or maintain...even if Kilmartin makes the
>>>>>             parts"
>>>>>
>>>>>             How so?
>>>>>
>>>>>             On 1/4/2021 9:40 PM, gradea1 at charter.net
>>>>>             <mailto:gradea1 at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>                 I'm with the philosophy "set the toe and let 'er
>>>>>                 blow" The 1/16-1/8" toe-in is most important for
>>>>>                 proper tire wear. The other two are factory fixed
>>>>>                 and too dangerous to play with or maintain...even
>>>>>                 if Kilmartin makes the parts. Hank
>>>>>
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