<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(250,250,250)">Art, you are speaking about an asymmetrical cam. When degreeing an asymmetrical lobe cam you must use the opening and closing figures at .050" tappet lift <u>off the base circle of the cam not from the point of maximum lift</u>. The problem with using the intake centerline method is that it has you finding the theoretical centerline of the intake, and or exhaust lobe. That system will work on a symmetrical lobe cam but when you try and do it with an asymmetrical cam when you try to find the centerline of the lobe there is an automatic error that may be as little as 2 degrees or as much as 6 degrees depending on the actual lobe design. Also the centerline method does not really indicate if your camshaft was properly produced, as no confirmation of the duration occurs. Since the opening and closing at .050" lift method is not affected by the lobe design, it is more accurate to degree using the opening and closing at .050" tappet lift method. This method will also verify your actual duration figures.</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(250,250,250)"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(250,250,250)">The above recommendations were gathered from several cam grinder sites.</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 6:25 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:riverside@southslope.net" target="_blank">riverside@southslope.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div>The lobe is that part of the cam that is not base circle.</div>
<div>some cams open the valve more rapidly than they close it. This </div>
<div>shifts the max lift point to the front side a little. </div>
<div>Mr. Elgin instructed me to go to the degree marks corresponding</div>
<div>to .050 before and after the point of maximum lift and split that</div>
<div>in half; the resulting reading would be the true lobe center. </div>
<div>I had a devil of a time the first one of his cams I degreed.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>art de armond</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="johnstydo@gmail.com" href="mailto:johnstydo@gmail.com" target="_blank">John Styduhar</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 26, 2017 4:21 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="riverside@southslope.net" href="mailto:riverside@southslope.net" target="_blank">riverside@southslope.net</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="patrickmannion1@netzero.com" href="mailto:patrickmannion1@netzero.com" target="_blank">patrickmannion1@netzero.com</a> ; <a title="duncan.charlton54@gmail.com" href="mailto:duncan.charlton54@gmail.com" target="_blank">Duncan Charlton</a> ; <a title="fot@autox.team.net" href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">Triumph 'Friends of
Triumph</a> </div><div><div class="h5">
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Re TR4 camshafts</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div><div><div class="h5">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small">The definition of cam lobe
center line <u>is</u> the point of maximum lift. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small"> </div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 12:19 PM, riverside--- via Fot
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div>to further complicate, the lobe center may not be at
the</div>
<div>point of maximum lift.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>art de armond</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="fot@autox.team.net" href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">patrickmannion1--- via Fot</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:25 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="duncan.charlton54@gmail.com" href="mailto:duncan.charlton54@gmail.com" target="_blank">duncan.charlton54@gmail.com</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="fot@autox.team.net" href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a> </div>
<div>
<div class="m_2291235138566220485h5">
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Re TR4 camshafts</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div>
<div class="m_2291235138566220485h5">
<div>Hi Duncan, John and all,</div>
<div>I sent the proper information to Newmans in June and again this week but
haven't had any response.I was wrong when I posted the lift figure, on Monday.
When I didn't get a response from Newman in June with accurate timing events I
through my notes in a box and misread them the other night, the lift was
actually .015" less than specified in lift at cam which would be .022" less
lift at the valve.</div>
<div>The total lift, rise figure at TDC, and the figure at which max rise
should occur did not match what their website specified. The two sentence
response from them was like a politician saying "trust me", it only
stated</div><pre>"The best way to set the camshaft is that you have maximum valve lift on the
inlet 110° after top dead centre" with no other information to second verify events</pre>
<div>In the past when we've ever had a figure on a timing card that didn't
match our cam grinder would get back and be able to say, check timing events
at this lift and verify by checking lobe centers and he would give you ways to
verify that all was correct. His cams always worked great.</div>
<div>I have three different types of cams, I'm going to plot and graph them
later in the week but will just use a camshaft from now on from a source I
trust.</div>
<div>thanks for you responses</div></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="m_2291235138566220485h5">Pat Mannion, Santa Cruz<br><br>---------- Original Message
----------<br>From: Duncan Charlton <<a href="mailto:duncan.charlton54@gmail.com" target="_blank">duncan.charlton54@gmail.com</a>><br>To: Triumph 'Friends of
Triumph <<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>><br>Cc: <a href="mailto:patrickmannion1@netzero.com" target="_blank">patrickmannion1@netzero.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Fot] Re TR4
camshafts<br>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 06:50:56 -0500<br><br>
<p>Hi Patrick,</p>
<div> </div>
<div>You didn’t say whether you determined how many degrees of advance/retard
you’re putting in by setting max lift at 110˚ ATDC. Confirming that
figure ought to give you some confidence that what they’re telling you is in
the ballpark. 2 to 4 degrees advance seems appropriate for a street
engine.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Since you've been in the business for a while (I’ve heard your name in
Morgan circles for many years) I assume you already have the tools and
knowledge to do this, so I won’t go into a long-winded description of the
process, but for those reading this who haven’t done this before: put a
degree wheel on the crank, zero it at true TDC and measure lift at the cam or
at the valve using a dial indicator, starting a few degrees before max lift
and ending a few degrees after max lift to be sure you’ve found mean maximum
lift. Do this for both intake and exhaust and calculate the midpoint
between those two mean maximum lift points. That gives you the cam's
“zero” point. Decide whether to advance or retard a few degrees from
zero. Advancing moves torque lower down on the rpm scale (but also
decreases intake valve to piston clearance). I find I have to plot this
on paper so I can make sense of it and to make sure I don’t move the the wrong
direction in altering the valve timing.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Newman overstated lift by 34%. Wow.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Duncan</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<blockquote>
<div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:48 PM, John Styduhar via Fot <<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small">Follow the instructions
for setting the cam and you will be fine. An adjustable cam sprocket
will make the job easier. </div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 11:54 AM, riverside--- via
Fot <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">Yikes!
I have always had great success with Dema's cams.<br>I hope his shop
survived the fires.<br><br>art de armond<br><br>-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmannion1--- via Fot<br>Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2017 5:11
PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" target="_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><br>Subject: [Fot] Re TR4
camshafts<span><br><br>Hello all,<br>I have always nearly always built
Triumph TR4 engines with cams from Dema Elgin Superlobes in Santa Rosa.
Occasionally I had installed other cams supplied by customers that had a
valid timing card supplied. I decided with the English pound being low vs
the Dollar I would try the PH1 Cam from Newman Cams in England. I had
heard good things about their PH1 cam as being a great street
cam.<br><br>When installing the cam. Information on there website stated
peak cam lift was .295" (it is only .220") resulting in a lift at the
valve being .120" less than stated. Starting off with" incorrect lift
figure all valve event figures on the website are wrong. After several
emails I got a two sentence email saying ,set Intake for max lift at 110
degrees ATDC and the cam will work,<br><br>After doing lots of engine
modifications I would like a more scientific answer than the cam will
work. Has anyone used this cam or a Newman cam before, or found that the
information supplied by Newman was incorrect. I hate to eat the cost of
the camshafts I bought or incur the cost of sending them back to England,
but I would have no confidence in using a camshaft without having a
correct timing card for the camshaft. -<br>thanks<br>Pat Mannion<br>Santa
Cruz
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