<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Yes, I was wrong, or more accurately—remembered incorrectly. The integral solenoid in the geared japanese starters most folks are using does indeed push the bendix part way into engagement and then the helical drag gear does the rest as the motor starts spinning. It is a high current relay though, and it should be all the relay necessary—you can operate these kind of starters with just a pushbutton. An additional relay might be desireable if you wanted the starter button to last a long time, but it’s just one more thing that could fail in a race car. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you bypass the integral solenoid and power the starter with an external solenoid the start will still work, the helical drag gear will still pull the gear into engagement with the flywheel, but I suspect the engagement would do more damage to the gears than necessary. With the internal solenoid pushing the gear into partial engagement before the contactors close and the motor spins up there is less grinding. I’ve seen people use an external solenoid by jumpering the small starter lead to the power lead. The external solenoid then applies power to both the main and the integral solenoid. The starter motor still doesn’t get powered until the bendix is partly engaged. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The original Lucas starters have no such pre-engagement device. The bendix engages with the gear spinning, which is why the leading edge of the flywheel gear gets so chewed. <br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 26, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Duncan Charlton <<a href="mailto:duncan.charlton54@gmail.com" class="">duncan.charlton54@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Oh, I see — you’re referring to an “inertia” starter motor.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The "integral” solenoid I’m referring to is the type that’s mounted to a pre-engaged starter motor, thus “integrated” with the starter motor unit, ie: built-in. The ones I’ve disassembled had a piston inside that was moved by an electromagnet when the lead from the ignition switch provides 12V, and the piston simultaneously moves a linkage that shifts the bendix gear into position against the ring gear while closing the circuit on the two heavy contacts connecting the battery with the electric motor, causing it to spin.<div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<div class="">Duncan Charlton</div><div class="">Elgin, Texas USA</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 26, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Bill Babcock <<a href="mailto:ponobill@gmail.com" class="">ponobill@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Ah, you’re thinking that the integrated solenoid makes the starter gear engage. no, it’s just a high-current relay—functionally identical to the separate solenoid the old Luca unit uses. I can’t think of a purpose to have a second solenoid—don’t know why they call that particular relay a Solenoid . The bendix engages by drag on a helical actuator. Purely mechanical in every starter I’ve ever seen. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 26, 2017, at 5:18 AM, Duncan Charlton via Fot <<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Your’re right — what I meant to say was that I shorted from the terminal with the incoming heavy lead to the small terminal that has the starter switch lead on it. That activates the solenoid rather than bypassing it, which likely simply spins the starter motor and doesn’t move the bendix.<div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<div class="">Duncan Charlton</div><div class="">Elgin, Texas USA</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:05 PM, Bill Babcock <<a href="mailto:ponobill@gmail.com" class="">ponobill@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">If you short across the big terminals you eliminate the integrated solenoid. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I have seen people bypass the integrated solenoid and use an external one, but my experience with the gear reduction starters is that they fail in the connection to the field coil, and rarely anywhere else. <br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 25, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Duncan Charlton via Fot <<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Unless… <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We’ve had two cars that had starting problems that were cured by using a second solenoid. The actual problem with both was most likely due to a voltage loss between the battery, the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The Ford solenoid requires very low voltage (something like 2 volts) to engage, whereas the one on my (German) Opel 1900 and the one on the 1978 Datsun 280Z clearly required a lot more. I could short across the big terminals to get the car to start, so I knew the starter motor and the integrated solenoid were both good. </div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<div class="">Duncan Charlton</div><div class="">Elgin, Texas USA</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 25, 2017, at 6:32 PM, Bill Babcock via Fot <<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Are you guys not using the gear reduction starters? The built in solenoid in the starters is a very reliable part. If you’re using a solenoid to activate the solenoid, I think you have one too many. </span><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 25, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Paul Ricco via Fot <<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">Napa auto parts has a part number ST51. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We went with as an emergency repair to replace a broken Lucas at the track on a Sunday. They were the only ones in the town open that had anything. The counter person spent an hour researching what they had that would work. It works. Very reliable. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think its actually for 60's era Ford trucks. The Tr4 does not seem to mind or be insulted by it any way.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Good Luck, </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Paul<br class=""><br class="">Sent from my iPhone</div><div class=""><br class="">On Mar 25, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Tony Drews via Fot <<a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">I replaced my Lucas unit (with button) with one from the local Farm and Fleet. Has been dead reliable for 15 years.<br class=""><br class="">Tony Drews<br class=""><br class="">At 02:08 PM 3/25/2017, Bob Totten via Fot wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite=""><font size="4" color="#0000FF" class="">Group wisdom on Starter Solenoids for our Triumph's ?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Who sells the better quality Lucas (?) units as my starting problem has pointed to the solenoid is not functioning properly. Would also be interested in learning about any alternative brand that would be better in the long run. In 20 years of running my Spit my 5th unit is on the fritz or is that the life span for these things?<br class=""><br class="">Curious,<br class=""><br class="">Bob T<br class="">'64 Spit GT autocrosser<br class=""><br class="">PS I have inspected and tested the starter, and had it tested at the local Advance Auto Parts and it functions just fine(?).<br class=""></font>_______________________________________________<br class=""><a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a><br class=""><br class=""><a href="http://www.fot-racing.com/" eudora="autourl" class="">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br class=""><br class="">Donate:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html" eudora="autourl" class="">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class="">Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/archive" eudora="autourl" class="">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br class="">Forums:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/forums" eudora="autourl" class="">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br class="">Unsubscribe/Manage:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony@tonydrews.com" eudora="autourl" class="">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony@tonydrews.com</a></blockquote><br class=""></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span class="">_______________________________________________</span><br class=""><span class=""><a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a></span><br class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""><span class=""><a href="http://www.fot-racing.com/" class="">http://www.fot-racing.com</a></span><br class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""><span class="">Donate:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html" class="">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></span><br class=""><span class="">Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/archive" class="">http://www.team.net/archive</a></span><br class=""><span class="">Forums:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/forums" class="">http://www.team.net/forums</a></span><br class=""><span class="">Unsubscribe/Manage:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/paulricco@att.net" class="">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/paulricco@att.net</a></span><br class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""><span class=""></span><br class=""></div></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br class=""><a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a><br class=""><br class=""><a href="http://www.fot-racing.com/" class="">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br class=""><br class="">Donate: <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html" class="">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class="">Archive: <a href="http://www.team.net/archive" class="">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br class="">Forums: <a href="http://www.team.net/forums" class="">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br class="">Unsubscribe/Manage:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/bill@ponostyle.com" class="">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/bill@ponostyle.com</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; 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