<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body ><div>Bill,</div><div>Thank you very much for stating so well what I know but just dont know how to say!!! Heck, even I understood what you said perfectly....</div><div><br></div><div>In a nutshell use a good crank grinder and do lots of measurements!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-size:100%">Steve Yott</div></div><br><br><br>-------- Original message --------<br>From: Bill Babcock <ponobill@gmail.com> <br>Date: 05/27/2016 4:26 PM (GMT-06:00) <br>To: TR3driver@ca.rr.com <br>Cc: Steve Yott <tr4@wi.rr.com>,Fot <fot@autox.team.net> <br>Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance <br> <br><br>Indexing in this case means aligning the crankshaft in the grinding machine so that as the crank is rotated, the journal center is the center of rotation. In a four cylinder triump crank journals two and three, and journals one and four are in the same plane. So the grinder aligns the machine so 1 and 4 are concentric, grinds those two, then indexes 2 and 3, and grinds those. In a six there are three sets of concentric pairs. Any indexing error means the two journals ground with error may reach TDC at a different degree of crank rotation (offset horizontally to the main journal plane), or at a different height above the center of crank rotation (offset verticallly), or both. <br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 27, 2016, at 10:13 AM, <a href="mailto:TR3driver@ca.rr.com" class="">TR3driver@ca.rr.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><p dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">I'm a bit confused, Steve (not unusual these days). When you say "indexing", I think of rotational position; which would affect timing, but not piston/head clearance.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Are you saying that the length of the throws (radial position) can be off as well?</p><p dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">-- Randall</p><div class="quote" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">On 27 May 2016 10:45 a.m., Steve Yott <<a href="mailto:tr4@wi.rr.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">tr4@wi.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class=""><blockquote class="quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="Section1" style="page: Section1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Since most of you like to play the “death with pistons” game keep in mind one additional factor as you are building your engines. Over the years I have found crankshafts which were reground and the throws were not very precisely indexed. When a crank is setup on the grinding machine for grinding rod journals it is set and reset by the number of “throws”… on a 4 cylinder engine the grinder has to be indexed twice and on the 6 cylinder, 3 times. If the grinder, either the person or the machine is not perfectly accurate you will see variations of TDC for the throws! I have seen these deviations be as much as .006” when a good grinder will hold dimensions within .001”. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">So, if you are running close squishes…. Measure TDC on #1 and #2 on the four cylinder and #1, #2 and #3 on the 6 motors….. this way to can make sure your throws and TDC’s are spot on.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Steve Yott<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>John Styduhar [<a href="mailto:johnstydo@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:johnstydo@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 26, 2016 4:32 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com</a><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Charly Mitchel; Steve Yott; Jim Gray; Triumph 'Friends of Triumph<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">My forged pistons are .006" in the hole at TDC and I use a .030" thick solid copper head gasket and stock crank at 6200 rpm. When removing the head, the piston tops are clean in the squish area and it looks like a slight indentation at the ledge of the combustion chamber, probably from piston rock when the engine is cold. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:23 PM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">IN our experience with TR-4, and English Ford Kent<br class="">racing engines the safe clearance between the head<br class="">and the piston crown is .035". A TR-4 with billet<br class="">rods will just "touch" the head at 6800 rpm with<br class="">.026" clearance. It will "hit" the head hard enough<br class="">to make an imprint in the piston crown at .029"<br class="">I would say that the TR-6 crank probably flexes more<br class="">than a TR-4 does at high rpm. You would like to have<br class="">a little safety margin, I would think. I would not<br class="">run less than .035", maybe even a couple more if the<br class="">engine is going to run over 6,000 rpm.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Greg Solow<br class="">The Engine Room<br class="">Sports Car Specialists<br class="">Santa Cruz, CA 95060<br class="">831 429-1800<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">------- Original Message -------<br class="">From : Charly[mailto:<a href="mailto:charly@mitchelplumbing.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">charly@mitchelplumbing.com</a>]<br class="">Sent : 5/25/2016 6:52:35 PM<br class="">To :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:tr4@wi.rr.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">tr4@wi.rr.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:toodamnfunky@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">toodamnfunky@comcast.net</a><br class="">Cc :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a><br class="">Subject : RE: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance<br class=""><br class=""> I tried b u idling a TR6 motor with a pop-up on the<br class="">piston on c e. Instead of having the pistons cut<br class="">down to zero clearance I left them about .005" high.<br class="">It eventually bent the rod and broken it. The<br class="">pistons had an imprint of the combustion chamber on<br class="">them. I learned that at 6000 rpm's, there is<br class="">enough deflection in the crank to let them hit the head.<br class="">I believe most head gaskets are .0035" aren't they?<br class="">Charly Mitchel<br class="">TR6 #44<br class=""><br class="">On Wed 25/05/16 11:31 AM ,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:toodamnfunky@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">toodamnfunky@comcast.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>sent:<br class="">> The rattling is likely piston slap on cold forged<br class="">pistons. Did it go<br class="">> away when it warmed up and came back on the next<br class="">cold start ?jim<br class="">><br class="">> -------------------------<br class="">> FROM: "Steve Yott"<br class="">> TO: "Robert Lang" , "FOT List"<br class="">> SENT: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:27:27 AM<br class="">> SUBJECT: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance<br class="">> I doubt that your .030 squish would cause the<br class="">rattling as you<br class="">> describe. The deflection caused by the crank, rod<br class="">and piston in order<br class="">> to hit the head at .030 would be way up in the<br class="">rpm’s like 8000!<br class="">> Did the rattling go away after all the parts warmed<br class="">up and oil was<br class="">> well disbursed or is it still rattling? My first<br class="">guess would be<br class="">> either the engine was not pre-oiled or you have<br class="">loose piston pin<br class="">> bushings…. Were the rods rebuilt with new bushings<br class="">fitted to about<br class="">> .0003?<br class="">> Steve Yott<br class="">> FROM: Fot [ mailto:<a href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>] ON<br class="">BEHALF OF Robert<br class="">> Lang<br class="">> SENT: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:29 AM<br class="">> TO: FOT List<br class="">> SUBJECT: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance<br class="">> Hi,<br class="">> Where I was going with the query was this: I had a<br class="">late block<br class="">> "decked" with the intent of making the deck flat.<br class="">The machinist took<br class="">> of .032 to accomplish the goal. With a head gasket<br class="">installed and the<br class="">> head torqued, the clearance in the squish area is .030.<br class="">><br class="">> I had initially wanted only about .025 removed, but<br class="">we had to shave<br class="">> an extra .007 to get rid of the fire ring cuts.<br class="">><br class="">> On initial startup, the motor sounded like it might<br class="">be "rattling" and<br class="">> I'm trying to figure out why.<br class="">><br class="">> When I used a stethescope on the block, everything<br class="">sounds okay - no<br class="">> rapping and the valve train sounds "normal" and<br class="">there were no weird<br class="">> sounds coming from the crank.<br class="">><br class="">> I guess where I'm going with this is: if piston /<br class="">head clearance is<br class="">> too tight, I'll see some sort of indication on the<br class="">piston, right?<br class="">><br class="">> TIA for any sage advice.<br class="">><br class="">> This is my first experience "decking" a block. I'd<br class="">like to get it<br class="">> right, I don't have the resources to start a new<br class="">block from scratch.<br class="">><br class="">> Regards,<br class="">><br class="">> Bob Lang<br class="">> _______________________________________________<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fot@autox.team.net</a><br class="">><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.fot-racing.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br class="">><br class="">> Donate: <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class="">> Archive: <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.team.net/archive" target="_blank" style="color: purple; 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