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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Gee thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>This is making me reconsider my effort to put togther a
vintage race Spitire (got a couple potentials in the barn) as I'm not really
sure I want to be affiliated with the racing mentaliity I'm seeing
tonight.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>On the vintage racing scene the Mini drivers have seemed to
be a more reasonable lot.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Maybe that's the tack I'll follow in the
future.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for being on the FOT list. Sorry I didn't meet
the entrane requirement of being a b*tth*le.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Spitfire(s) and other toys.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578020505-26092008></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> fot-bounces@autox.team.net
[mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill
Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:45 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bill
Babcock<BR><B>Cc:</B> 'FOT'; britbits@netzero.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot]
Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Oops, I forgot, Pittsburg Grand Prix, Watkins Glen, and Beaverrun
(last year)<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:37 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">And
if you're intent on staying off the tracks I race on, that would be most of
the west cost (PIR, Seattle Raceways, Mission, thunderhill, Infineon, Laguna
Seca, Willow Springs) plus last year VIR, Brainerd, Grattan, Road America,
Road Atlanta, Limerock, and Mosport. I expect to do Miller, and Barbur next
year as well. Have fun with the rest. <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Define "speed".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Is it the speed your car is capable of... your personal
preference, or the normal speed of the run group?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>If Steve was running around the track at some really
reduced speed... yeah, he should move off line. But what's the legal
definition? 10mph slower? 20? 30? Who defines
that?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>What's more important on a race course? A
clear line? Or predicable drivers? What's
safer?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Keeping in mind that the scenario is also an early
morning warm up session. Do you pull full rev full bore racing moves
in that scenario? Where do you race? So I can avoid those
tracks?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or did you read the original post at all? Going
by too fast to read?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or should I slow down my questions so you can
understand?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Anyway... what's the ultimate goal of this mess?
Corporate sponsorship and playboy bunnies? That was 30+ year
ago. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>We're just supposed to be out there having fun.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Bill Babcock [<A
href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">mailto:Billb@bnj.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><B>Cc:</B>
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing
speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off the
line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking
drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing
the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the
line when he was NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need
to be there. And in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are
NOT supposed to be on the line then.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor
is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where
you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't
go into the dirt because he wanted to. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I understand the intent....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I went through my drivers school in a vintage
race group, the understanding was that you "drove the line". If
someone wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a
safe pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this
forum?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving
off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that
session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic
rule.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit
car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But
my expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car
should use that information in order to make a safe
pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I guess it's something that needs to be discussed
with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on
track. If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule
apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick a different line"
that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the
track.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>It all comes down to
communication.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>too many toys, not enough $$$</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>
[<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25,
2008 10:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><B>Cc:</B>
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to
delete before reading.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
"douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that did
NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at full
chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my question is,
if you were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty close to
the line"? The line is where you need to be when you need to be there, in
other words, when you are at speed and it's the only safe way through a
corner. If you are <SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">driving</SPAN> to the line, you don't
need to be there. If the line is the only place that the laws of physics
permit your car to be, then you do. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you
are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy who
drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so
closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at least
twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just
where his driving instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from
the line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in
any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In
contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might
be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing
but respect for that, lift and wait. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path
through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you can't
tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to stand
on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing condition.
As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are
responsible. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with
picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't
belong anywhere near the racing line. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>Steven,<BR><BR>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing
vintage events... so<BR>some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or
the different PC games feel<BR>they need to drive like a jerk to be a
"racer". Or maybe they saw "Days of<BR>Thunder" once too often
;)<BR><BR>Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a
bad idea to<BR>install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an
official and show them the<BR>video. It's kind of hard to argue
against a
video.<BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Jim<BR>Dallas<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>
[<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
On<BR>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<BR>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24
PM<BR>To: FOT<BR>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR><BR>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two
weekends ago I raced at<BR>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new
brakes that needed bedding. This meant I<BR>needed to heat up my
brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so<BR>I could have
good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in
the<BR>first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys
what I needed<BR>to do and started in the back. I'm also running a
fresh engine and feeling<BR>that out as well. Anyway, after about
3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<BR>bedding the brakes and I'm about to
get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"<BR>session of the weekend.
A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the<BR>left and
moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to
the<BR>line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right
ON THE DIRT at<BR>full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little
squirrelly, threw some<BR>rocks onto my car and kept going. This
guy was racing hard with a yellow<BR>P1800 and not letting up one bit.
He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<BR>when overtaking me.
The level of aggression took me by surprise and made me<BR>angry.
It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my best to
get<BR>my job done safely and get off <BR>the race track.
I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's
<BR>dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no
prize money."<BR>I would say that most of the drivers are safe and
respectful of their<BR>machines and their abilities but all it takes is
one douchebag move and<BR>you're in big
trouble.<BR><BR>~SB<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Support
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<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; COLOR: rgb(118,15,79)">Bill Babcock</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV
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<DIV>Babcock & Jenkins</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">Billb@bnj.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>503.936.7660</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.bnj.com">www.bnj.com</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#010000>Editor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#010000>Ke Nalu
e-Magazine</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#010000><FONT
class=Apple-style-span size=3><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
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<DIV><A href="mailto:Bill@kenalu.com">Bill@kenalu.com</A></DIV>
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