<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">And if you're intent on staying off the tracks I race on, that would be most of the west cost (PIR, Seattle Raceways, Mission, thunderhill, Infineon, Laguna Seca, Willow Springs) plus last year VIR, Brainerd, Grattan, Road America, Road Atlanta, Limerock, and Mosport. I expect to do Miller, and Barbur next year as well. Have fun with the rest. <br><div><div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Jim wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Define "speed".</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Is it the speed your car is capable of... your personal preference, or the normal speed of the run group?</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">If Steve was running around the track at some really reduced speed... yeah, he should move off line. But what's the legal definition? 10mph slower? 20? 30? Who defines that?</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">What's more important on a race course? A clear line? Or predicable drivers? What's safer?</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Keeping in mind that the scenario is also an early morning warm up session. Do you pull full rev full bore racing moves in that scenario? Where do you race? So I can avoid those tracks?</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Or did you read the original post at all? Going by too fast to read?</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Or should I slow down my questions so you can understand?</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Anyway... what's the ultimate goal of this mess? Corporate sponsorship and playboy bunnies? That was 30+ year ago. </font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">We're just supposed to be out there having fun. </font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Cheers,</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Jim</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Dallas</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="000231504-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div><br> <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"> <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Bill Babcock [<a href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">mailto:Billb@bnj.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> 'FOT'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving<br></font><br></div> <div></div>Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the line then. <div><br></div> <div>Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to. </div> <div><br> <div><br> <div> <div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">I understand the intent....</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car should use that information in order to make a safe pass.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track. If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the track.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">It all comes down to communication.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Cheers,</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Jim</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Dallas</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="484395603-26092008"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">too many toys, not enough $$$</font></span></div><br> <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"> <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a> [<a href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill Babcock<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> 'FOT'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving<br></font><br></div> <div></div>You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete before reading. <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are <span class="Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">driving</span> to the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place that the laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do. </div> <div><br></div> <div>There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift and wait. </div> <div><br></div> <div>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are responsible. </div> <div><br></div> <div>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't belong anywhere near the racing line. </div> <div><br></div> <div><br> <div> <div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite"> <div>Steven,<br><br>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage events... so<br>some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC games feel<br>they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they saw "Days of<br>Thunder" once too often ;)<br><br>Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad idea to<br>install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show them the<br>video. It's kind of hard to argue against a video.<br><br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Jim<br>Dallas<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a> [<a href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>] On<br>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<br>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM<br>To: FOT<br>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving<br><br>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends ago I raced at<br>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed bedding. This meant I<br>needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so<br>I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in the<br>first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys what I needed<br>to do and started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine and feeling<br>that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<br>bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"<br>session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the<br>left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the<br>line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE DIRT at<br>full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, threw some<br>rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard with a yellow<br>P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<br>when overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise and made me<br>angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my best to get<br>my job done safely and get off <br>the race track. I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's <br>dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize money."<br>I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of their<br>machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and<br>you're in big trouble.<br><br>~SB<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Support Team.Net <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.fot-racing.com">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br><br>Fot mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fot@autox.team.net">Fot@autox.team.net</a><br><a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot">http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot</a><br><br><br>____________________________________________________________<br>Click here to find answers for Love, Problems, and what your Future holds.<br>http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/Ioyw6i4sufAJOayzbWQtj71HjwvM2L2ShWzEzSvnDvza8yJPMIlDpj/<br>_______________________________________________<br>Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html<br><br>http://www.fot-racing.com<br><br>Fot mailing list<br>Fot@autox.team.net<br>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br> <div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 14px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 14px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 14px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; COLOR: rgb(118,15,79)">Bill Babcock</span></div> <div> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div>Babcock & Jenkins</div> <div><a href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">Billb@bnj.com</a></div> <div>503.936.7660</div> <div><a href="http://www.bnj.com">www.bnj.com</a></div> <div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> <div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000">Editor</font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000">Ke Nalu e-Magazine</font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><i>Paddlesurfing's Web Journal</i></span></font></font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><i><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></i></span></font></div> <div><a href="mailto:Bill@kenalu.com">Bill@kenalu.com</a></div> <div><a href="http://www.kenalu.com">www.kenalu.com</a></div> <div>blog: <a href="http://www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog">www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div><br></div></div><font face="Times-New-Roman" size="2"><br><br>____________________________________________________________ <br><a href="http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2242/fc/Ioyw6i4unVuRKqFpIYxXJ3WkQdqqfRbKCHuwurhb1SIKdsNjsyYwIW/" target="_blank">Reach your goals of being healthier and happier. 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Click here to book a hotel online.</a></font><a href="http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2242/fc/Ioyw6i4uHAejofFLNREYiFHdxrZrjzd0V3WCWZX4SRgUPRlO97HEc2/" target="_blank"></a><br></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(118, 15, 79); font-size: 16px; ">Bill Babcock</span></div><div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Babcock & Jenkins</div><div><a href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">Billb@bnj.com</a></div><div>503.936.7660</div><div><a href="http://www.bnj.com">www.bnj.com</a></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000">Editor</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000">Ke Nalu e-Magazine</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><i>Paddlesurfing's Web Journal</i></span></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#010000" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><i><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></i></span></font></div><div><a href="mailto:Bill@kenalu.com">Bill@kenalu.com</a></div><div><a href="http://www.kenalu.com">www.kenalu.com</a></div><div>blog: <a href="http://www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog">www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br></body></html>