<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16705" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"
bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is you is, or is you ain't on the
line? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Assuming that you have clearly signaled your
intention by waving someone around can be a problem if the overtaking car
doesn't see the wave, or if he's is already committed to the line. Without
having been there, it's unclear to me what the "red 2002" perceived as
he approached the slower car saw in front of him. Moving "a bit
to the right" and being "pretty close to the line" may have
communicated very mixed signals to others who are halfway through a
green flag session - even if it is just a morning warm up to
some. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Carroll Smith always talked about carrying
a spare set of brake pads in his brief case that he had bedded on a test
day just so he never had to worry about it on a race weekend. That's
not to say that you can't (carefully) bed brakes or heat cycle (and
cool)sticker tires during a hot session, but do your best to make
your intentions obvious and stay the hell outta the fast line as much as
you can. Even that can be tricky when you're transiting through connected
left-right corners like esses. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave Talbott</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=quicktr4@comcast.net href="mailto:quicktr4@comcast.net">quicktr4</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=Billb@bnj.com
href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">Bill Babcock</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fot@autox.team.net
href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net">'FOT'</A> ; <A title=britbits@netzero.com
href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:44
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes,
dangerous driving</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>a point around is mearly an idication the driver
is aware of your presence and leaving the pass to you. of course he is going
to drive the line. yo have to pass in a safe maner.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Billb@bnj.com href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">Bill Babcock</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=Billb@bnj.com
href="mailto:Billb@bnj.com">Bill Babcock</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fot@autox.team.net
href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net">'FOT'</A> ; <A title=britbits@netzero.com
href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes,
dangerous driving</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>I reread everything
to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I come away convinced that while I
might be a jerk, I'm right. Steven says " A red 2002 is
approaching me and I waved him to the left and moved to the right a
little bit, while staying pretty close to the<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>line." OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me.
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Actually,
it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your racing
speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line if you are at
speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect you
to hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a
safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he
was NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there.
And in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed
to be on the line then.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe
nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go
where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy
didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I understand the intent....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I went through my drivers school in a vintage
race group, the understanding was that you "drove the line". If
someone wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a
safe pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this
forum?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>One of the other racers shared an anecdote of
"moving off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in
after that session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic
rule.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I was active in Vintage I was in a close
cockpit car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was
difficult. But my expectation was that if I was signalling
right.. the overtaking car should use that information in order to make
a safe pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I guess it's something that needs to be discussed
with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on
track. If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule
apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick a different
line" that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the
track.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>It all comes down to
communication.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>too many toys, not enough
$$$</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>
[<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25,
2008 10:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><B>Cc:</B>
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to
delete before reading.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
"douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that
did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at
full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my
question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why were you
"pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to be when you
need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed and it's the
only safe way through a corner. If you are <SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">driving</SPAN> to the line, you don't
need to be there. If the line is the only place that the laws of physics
permit your car to be, then you do. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you
are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy
who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed
him so closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at
least twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely.
Just where his driving instructor told him to drive. And he never
deviated from the line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I
would encounter in any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit
"racing". In contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it
out, they might be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where
they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift and
wait. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe
path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you
can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to
stand on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing
condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but
you are responsible. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with
picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you
don't belong anywhere near the racing line. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>Steven,<BR><BR>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when
describing vintage events... so<BR>some of the "kids" who loved Pole
Position or the different PC games feel<BR>they need to drive like a
jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they saw "Days of<BR>Thunder"
once too often ;)<BR><BR>Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors,
it's probably not a bad idea to<BR>install an in car camera.
Next time.. grab an official and show them the<BR>video.
It's kind of hard to argue against a
video.<BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Jim<BR>Dallas<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>
[<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
On<BR>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<BR>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008
6:24 PM<BR>To: FOT<BR>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR><BR>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two
weekends ago I raced at<BR>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new
brakes that needed bedding. This meant I<BR>needed to heat up my
brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so<BR>I could have
good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in
the<BR>first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys
what I needed<BR>to do and started in the back. I'm also running
a fresh engine and feeling<BR>that out as well. Anyway, after
about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<BR>bedding the brakes and I'm
about to get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"<BR>session of
the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to
the<BR>left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty
close to the<BR>line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on
the right ON THE DIRT at<BR>full speed. He re-entered the track, got a
little squirrelly, threw some<BR>rocks onto my car and kept going.
This guy was racing hard with a yellow<BR>P1800 and not letting
up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<BR>when
overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise and
made me<BR>angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I
truly did my best to get<BR>my job done safely and get off
<BR>the race track. I tell my friends and family,
when they ask if it's <BR>dangerous, "You see, it's a
gentlemen's sport and there's no prize money."<BR>I would say that
most of the drivers are safe and respectful of their<BR>machines and
their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and<BR>you're
in big
trouble<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html<BR><BR>http://www.fot-racing.com<BR><BR>Fot
mailing
list<BR>Fot@autox.team.net<BR>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Support Team.Net
http://www.team.net/donate.html<BR><BR>http://www.fot-racing.com<BR><BR>Fot
mailing
list<BR>Fot@autox.team.net<BR>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>