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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>I won't argue against your points in a race
session.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>But the orginal point was that it happened in an early
practice session. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that generally a time
for racers to figure if the car is running correctly, and for newcomers to the
track to figure the track correctly?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>So.. doing a full bore racing manuever in that scenario
might be a bit... wrong?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>Yeah, I've only done 2 weekends on track. But
somehow even I don't think I should be scaring the chickens that early in the
morning.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>Lemme take control. Assume I'm doing brake checks
during a race session. If you blow by me in this scenario.. I won't blame
you. I'm doing the dumb*ss thing. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>But in the first warm up session in the morning?
Come on. Think about it, before putting fingers on
keyboard.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>That's the essential reason that accidents
happen. People don't think about what they're doing, when they do
it. And the people around them don't expect it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>But let's separate blatantley stupid driving from
possibly normal warmup procedures.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>Cheers,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>Jim</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>Dallas</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008>Too many toys, not enough time</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=375382804-26092008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Bill Babcock [mailto:Billb@bnj.com]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:26 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bill
Babcock<BR><B>Cc:</B> britbits@netzero.com; 'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot]
Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I come away
convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right. Steven says " A
red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the left and moved to the
right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>line." OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me.
</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Actually,
it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your racing
speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line if you are at
speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect you to
hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a safe
manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at
racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any
racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the
line then.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor
is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where
you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't go
into the dirt because he wanted to. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I understand the intent....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race
group, the understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone
wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe
pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this
forum?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving
off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that
session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic
rule.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit
car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my
expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car should
use that information in order to make a safe pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with
each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track.
If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply. If
it's "if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to be
agreed before cars hit the track.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>It all comes down to communication.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>too many toys, not enough $$$</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A> [<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25,
2008 10:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><B>Cc:</B>
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to
delete before reading.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
"douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that did
NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at full
chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my question is,
if you were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty close to
the line"? The line is where you need to be when you need to be there, in
other words, when you are at speed and it's the only safe way through a
corner. If you are <SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">driving</SPAN> to the line, you don't
need to be there. If the line is the only place that the laws of physics
permit your car to be, then you do. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are
not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove
a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so
closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice,
sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his
driving instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I
considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the
the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you come
up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower than
you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but respect for
that, lift and wait. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path
through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you can't
tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to stand on
their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing condition. As
Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are
responsible. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with
picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't
belong anywhere near the racing line. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>Steven,<BR><BR>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing
vintage events... so<BR>some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the
different PC games feel<BR>they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer".
Or maybe they saw "Days of<BR>Thunder" once too often
;)<BR><BR>Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a
bad idea to<BR>install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an
official and show them the<BR>video. It's kind of hard to argue
against a
video.<BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Jim<BR>Dallas<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>
[<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
On<BR>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<BR>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24
PM<BR>To: FOT<BR>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR><BR>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two
weekends ago I raced at<BR>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes
that needed bedding. This meant I<BR>needed to heat up my brakes in
the first practice session, let them cool so<BR>I could have good braking
power for the rest of the weekend. I was in the<BR>first group so at
8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys what I needed<BR>to do and
started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine and
feeling<BR>that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm
just about done<BR>bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped.
This is the first "Warm-up"<BR>session of the weekend. A red
2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the<BR>left and moved to the
right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the<BR>line. Next
thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE DIRT at<BR>full
speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, threw
some<BR>rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard
with a yellow<BR>P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to
sacrifice his lap time<BR>when overtaking me. The level of
aggression took me by surprise and made me<BR>angry. It was, after
all the morning warm-up and I truly did my best to get<BR>my job done
safely and get off <BR>the race track. I tell my friends
and family, when they ask if it's <BR>dangerous, "You see, it's a
gentlemen's sport and there's no prize money."<BR>I would say that most of
the drivers are safe and respectful of their<BR>machines and their
abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and<BR>you're in big
trouble<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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