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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Define "speed".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Is it the speed your car is capable of... your personal
preference, or the normal speed of the run group?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>If Steve was running around the track at some really
reduced speed... yeah, he should move off line. But what's the legal
definition? 10mph slower? 20? 30? Who defines
that?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>What's more important on a race course? A clear
line? Or predicable drivers? What's safer?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Keeping in mind that the scenario is also an early morning
warm up session. Do you pull full rev full bore racing moves in that
scenario? Where do you race? So I can avoid those
tracks?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or did you read the original post at all? Going by
too fast to read?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or should I slow down my questions so you can
understand?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Anyway... what's the ultimate goal of this mess?
Corporate sponsorship and playboy bunnies? That was 30+ year ago.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>We're just supposed to be out there having fun.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000231504-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Bill Babcock [mailto:Billb@bnj.com]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
britbits@netzero.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> 'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding
Brakes, dangerous driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing
speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line
if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers
expect you to hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in
a safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was
NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in
any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the
line then.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is
it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you
point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't go into
the dirt because he wanted to. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I understand the intent....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race
group, the understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone
wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe
pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this
forum?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off
line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that session
and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car
(Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my
expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car should use
that information in order to make a safe pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with
each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track. If
the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply. If it's
"if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to be agreed
before cars hit the track.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>It all comes down to communication.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=484395603-26092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>too many toys, not enough $$$</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> fot-bounces@autox.team.net [<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, 2008
10:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:britbits@netzero.com">britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><B>Cc:</B>
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete
before reading.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
"douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that did NOT
NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at full chat--and
pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my question is, if you
were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty close to the line"?
The line is where you need to be when you need to be there, in other words,
when you are at speed and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are
<SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">driving</SPAN>
to the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place that
the laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are
not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a
car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely. I,
and the entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes
three times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving
instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I
considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the
the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you come up
on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower than you, but
they need to be where they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift
and wait. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path
through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you can't tuck
in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to stand on their
brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy
might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are responsible. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with picnics.
Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't belong
anywhere near the racing line. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>Steven,<BR><BR>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing
vintage events... so<BR>some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the
different PC games feel<BR>they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer".
Or maybe they saw "Days of<BR>Thunder" once too often ;)<BR><BR>Aside
from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad idea
to<BR>install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show
them the<BR>video. It's kind of hard to argue against a
video.<BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Jim<BR>Dallas<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A> [<A
href="mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>]
On<BR>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<BR>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24
PM<BR>To: FOT<BR>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous
driving<BR><BR>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends
ago I raced at<BR>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed
bedding. This meant I<BR>needed to heat up my brakes in the first
practice session, let them cool so<BR>I could have good braking power for
the rest of the weekend. I was in the<BR>first group so at 8:30am, I
told the proper official-type guys what I needed<BR>to do and started in the
back. I'm also running a fresh engine and feeling<BR>that out as well.
Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<BR>bedding the
brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the first
"Warm-up"<BR>session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and
I waved him to the<BR>left and moved to the right a little bit, while
staying pretty close to the<BR>line. Next thing I know the guy is
passing me on the right ON THE DIRT at<BR>full speed. He re-entered the
track, got a little squirrelly, threw some<BR>rocks onto my car and kept
going. This guy was racing hard with a yellow<BR>P1800 and not letting
up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<BR>when
overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise and made
me<BR>angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my
best to get<BR>my job done safely and get off <BR>the race track.
I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's
<BR>dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize
money."<BR>I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of
their<BR>machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move
and<BR>you're in big
trouble.<BR><BR>~SB<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Support
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