From bownes at seiri.com  Sat Aug  3 00:14:29 2024
From: bownes at seiri.com (Bob Bownes -Seiri)
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2024 02:14:29 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 non OD gearbox
Message-ID: <469C95CA-0E25-4728-97F3-D40C0CEC88DA@seiri.com>


FOT,

Anyone need a non-overdrive gearbox for a TR6? I have one spare Toomy needs taking up valuable space in my garage. I?d be happy to make a gift of it to any FT who can put it to good use.

Available in sunny Troy New York. It?s up to you to come get it!

Al the best,
Bob

From yellow04 at tr4racer.com  Sun Aug  4 11:35:52 2024
From: yellow04 at tr4racer.com (yellow04)
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:35:52 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Southwick front hub failure
Message-ID: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>

I am throwing this out there as a public service announcement, I broke a 
part that I thought we had bulletproof solution to. At PittRace last 
weekend I broke one of Southwick's aluminum front hubs. The area of the 
hub that the inner race presses into sheared off, thankfully the wheel 
was retained by the outer bearing and stayed on the car. I don't know 
for how many laps that would have been the case!

Has anybody else heard of one of these hubs failing?

Discussions with Richard Good, who took over manufacturing these hubs 
revealed his hubs are turned from a stronger material, the GoodParts 
hubs are made from 7075 T6 aluminum, while Southwick made theirs from 
6061 T6. Yes, it is a little heavier, but the GoodParts hub is still 
about a pound lighter than stock. If you are unsure where your hubs were 
made, I provided details in the writeup.

I have also been in contact with Chuck Gee, our resident metallurgist. 
He is suggesting anybody running these Southwick hubs should start a 
program of dye penetration testing.

Pictures and writeup here.

https://tr250racer.com/southwick-front-hub-failure/

Hope this helps everybody keep the shiny side up!

Henry Frye

From spiwakd at aol.com  Sun Aug  4 11:46:41 2024
From: spiwakd at aol.com (spiwakd at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 17:46:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Race car for sale
References: <1384659669.1872798.1722793601843.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1384659669.1872798.1722793601843@mail.yahoo.com>

My TR4 race car is on bringatrailer.com. Zero-hour completely rebuilt engine and trans and new Hoosier Speedsters
David Spiwak
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From fubog1 at aol.com  Sun Aug  4 14:35:32 2024
From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 20:35:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Southwick front hub failure
In-Reply-To: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>
References: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <1508606576.3706501.1722803732366@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks for the info & excellent report Henry, albeit not good news.Glad no more damage was done, sent you a couple emails.
Glen Efinger

    On Sunday, August 4, 2024 at 01:54:00 PM EDT, yellow04 via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:   

 I am throwing this out there as a public service announcement, I broke a 
part that I thought we had bulletproof solution to. At PittRace last 
weekend I broke one of Southwick's aluminum front hubs. The area of the 
hub that the inner race presses into sheared off, thankfully the wheel 
was retained by the outer bearing and stayed on the car. I don't know 
for how many laps that would have been the case!

Has anybody else heard of one of these hubs failing?

Discussions with Richard Good, who took over manufacturing these hubs 
revealed his hubs are turned from a stronger material, the GoodParts 
hubs are made from 7075 T6 aluminum, while Southwick made theirs from 
6061 T6. Yes, it is a little heavier, but the GoodParts hub is still 
about a pound lighter than stock. If you are unsure where your hubs were 
made, I provided details in the writeup.

I have also been in contact with Chuck Gee, our resident metallurgist. 
He is suggesting anybody running these Southwick hubs should start a 
program of dye penetration testing.

Pictures and writeup here.

https://tr250racer.com/southwick-front-hub-failure/

Hope this helps everybody keep the shiny side up!

Henry Frye
_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/fubog1 at aol.com


  
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From moosehd2 at pacbell.net  Sun Aug  4 14:58:53 2024
From: moosehd2 at pacbell.net (Bert Brown)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 20:58:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Southwick front hub failure
In-Reply-To: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>
References: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <114375329.1824809.1722805133947@mail.yahoo.com>

 HenryExcellent write up and documentation!? I'm sure this is a help to everyone!
When you search general metallurgical references you will find 7075 has better fatigue strength than 6061.
And as with a lot of race car parts, nondestructive testing of critical parts is just part of the game as suggested by Chuck Gee.I have a number of red tagged parts on the "trophy" case that didn't pass inspection.
Bert Brownex Cal Club GP #90

    On Sunday, August 4, 2024 at 11:02:18 AM PDT, yellow04 via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 I am throwing this out there as a public service announcement, I broke a 
part that I thought we had bulletproof solution to. At PittRace last 
weekend I broke one of Southwick's aluminum front hubs. The area of the 
hub that the inner race presses into sheared off, thankfully the wheel 
was retained by the outer bearing and stayed on the car. I don't know 
for how many laps that would have been the case!

Has anybody else heard of one of these hubs failing?

Discussions with Richard Good, who took over manufacturing these hubs 
revealed his hubs are turned from a stronger material, the GoodParts 
hubs are made from 7075 T6 aluminum, while Southwick made theirs from 
6061 T6. Yes, it is a little heavier, but the GoodParts hub is still 
about a pound lighter than stock. If you are unsure where your hubs were 
made, I provided details in the writeup.

I have also been in contact with Chuck Gee, our resident metallurgist. 
He is suggesting anybody running these Southwick hubs should start a 
program of dye penetration testing.

Pictures and writeup here.

https://tr250racer.com/southwick-front-hub-failure/

Hope this helps everybody keep the shiny side up!

Henry Frye
_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/moosehd2 at pacbell.net


  
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From mckearn2 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  5 07:40:38 2024
From: mckearn2 at gmail.com (McKearn McKearn)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 08:40:38 -0500
Subject: [Fot] Mid Ohio
Message-ID: <CAAGAaPVq55GO8cWK-rZ7Kj9DEXXdBcA=q7vaGV954WcQcvWgFw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All.
  I'm wondering if any fot'rs will be at Mid Ohio this coming weekend and
can anyone recommend a hotel in the area ?
          Thanks.. P.J.
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From tomstrange5 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  5 10:19:06 2024
From: tomstrange5 at gmail.com (tom strange)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 12:19:06 -0400
Subject: [Fot] GT6 Diff
Message-ID: <CALDumpAvFqUX_=vFLmnCx-_9UYWFXkPn0cSw59Ns+z5iN0oyjA@mail.gmail.com>

  Looking for the big bolt that mounts the GT6 differential to the frame
...  if anyone has one they can part with would be great.
  Second option is the size if anyone can provide that would be great...
Many thanks,
Tom Strange
GT6 #59 Red
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From chasgee22 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  5 11:40:38 2024
From: chasgee22 at gmail.com (Chuck Gee)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 12:40:38 -0500
Subject: [Fot] =?utf-8?b?V2hhdCB0aGXigKYu?=
Message-ID: <CACD5416-3E0F-458B-9B84-DBD7A2C8E2F4@gmail.com>



At the Speedway Motors museum.  Free storage Rocky?

Chuck
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From tomstrange5 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  5 11:57:44 2024
From: tomstrange5 at gmail.com (tom strange)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 13:57:44 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Bolt help found
Message-ID: <CALDumpAZCrsaYuudJf=15FcuYoBYWTx=BFodroakyB_ttzmt+w@mail.gmail.com>

Done,
. Thanks to Jason Sukey, the bolt is ordered and on its way.. thanks to all.
Tom Strange
59 Red GT6
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From dbm.spitfire at gmail.com  Mon Aug  5 17:23:51 2024
From: dbm.spitfire at gmail.com (Doug Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 19:23:51 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Mid Ohio
In-Reply-To: <CAAGAaPVq55GO8cWK-rZ7Kj9DEXXdBcA=q7vaGV954WcQcvWgFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAGAaPVq55GO8cWK-rZ7Kj9DEXXdBcA=q7vaGV954WcQcvWgFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGctxs4GMZ0xqZZ5Vk=hQLyQoRor=PdJLEq3evJ33Qcf6e3qPw@mail.gmail.com>

I will be there, staying at the Travelodge on Hanley. I hope I see you in
the evening and not during the day. I am the Chair-SOM.
Regards,
Doug Mitchell
dbm.spitfire at gmail.com

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 7:13?PM McKearn McKearn via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hi All.
>   I'm wondering if any fot'rs will be at Mid Ohio this coming weekend and
> can anyone recommend a hotel in the area ?
>           Thanks.. P.J.
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/dbm.spitfire at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From solarant at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  5 19:25:59 2024
From: solarant at hotmail.com (Anthony Parker)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 01:25:59 +0000
Subject: [Fot] GT6 Diff
In-Reply-To: <CALDumpAvFqUX_=vFLmnCx-_9UYWFXkPn0cSw59Ns+z5iN0oyjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALDumpAvFqUX_=vFLmnCx-_9UYWFXkPn0cSw59Ns+z5iN0oyjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN7PR19MB750110A09198B0103E65A4EFD7BF2@SN7PR19MB7501.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

SpitBits has them.




________________________________
From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of tom strange via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, August 5, 2024 12:19 PM
To: fot at autox.team.net <fot at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Fot] GT6 Diff

  Looking for the big bolt that mounts the GT6 differential to the frame ...  if anyone has one they can part with would be great.
  Second option is the size if anyone can provide that would be great...
Many thanks,
Tom Strange
GT6 #59 Red

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From ofracer at gmail.com  Tue Aug  6 08:03:19 2024
From: ofracer at gmail.com (Mike Harmuth)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 10:03:19 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Jerry Barker in 1976 Road & Track article
Message-ID: <CAO0FjVaWcX-QicP5Qpxqzf0ZqkB78ef4iyjJSGgrh3UzTstg0w@mail.gmail.com>

I was looking through the Feb. 1976 issue of R&T over lunch yesterday and
came across a write up of the 1975 SCCA national Championships at Road
Atlanta.

A young looking Jerry Barker , 1975 G-Prod SCCA National Champion in a
Spitfire, is pictured with some distinguished company.

mike h
[image: Jerry Barker Feb 1976 R&T.jpg]
[image: Jerry Barker write up.jpg]
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From vfracing at aol.com  Tue Aug  6 09:21:08 2024
From: vfracing at aol.com (vfracing at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 15:21:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Jerry Barker in 1976 Road & Track article
In-Reply-To: <CAO0FjVaWcX-QicP5Qpxqzf0ZqkB78ef4iyjJSGgrh3UzTstg0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO0FjVaWcX-QicP5Qpxqzf0ZqkB78ef4iyjJSGgrh3UzTstg0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <432764386.2301710.1722957668740@mail.yahoo.com>

 And Triumph pilot Ken Slagle as well!
Phil G
    On Tuesday, August 6, 2024 at 10:17:22 AM EDT, Mike Harmuth via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:   

 I was looking through the Feb. 1976 issue of R&T over lunch yesterday and came across a write up of the 1975 SCCA national Championships at Road Atlanta.?
A young looking Jerry Barker , 1975 G-Prod SCCA National Champion in a Spitfire, is pictured?with some distinguished company.
mike h

_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From jason at multivintage.com  Tue Aug  6 22:39:31 2024
From: jason at multivintage.com (Jason Ostrowski)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 23:39:31 -0500
Subject: [Fot] The best rear brakes ever.
Message-ID: <C93B5AF3-BD83-4805-A43A-E5624F25811F@multivintage.com>

This is a cool tidbit 
The best rear brake shoes I have ever used are shown below.
These are currently being used by me and have been working great.
Notice anything unusual?

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Jason Ostrowski 
Friendly Ghost Racing
1969 Triumph GT6+ racecars

Sent from my iPhone

From ofracer at gmail.com  Wed Aug  7 05:42:27 2024
From: ofracer at gmail.com (Mike Harmuth)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 07:42:27 -0400
Subject: [Fot] The best rear brakes ever.
In-Reply-To: <C93B5AF3-BD83-4805-A43A-E5624F25811F@multivintage.com>
References: <C93B5AF3-BD83-4805-A43A-E5624F25811F@multivintage.com>
Message-ID: <CAO0FjVbddy25f5UoSa_SToZG=Fa_bHLSbjJb1vuQK485wL9hbQ@mail.gmail.com>

10% less contact area?

Is this the drum brake version of a slotted rotor?

Who makes them?

thanks
mike h

On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 12:54?AM Jason Ostrowski via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> This is a cool tidbit
> The best rear brake shoes I have ever used are shown below.
> These are currently being used by me and have been working great.
> Notice anything unusual?
>
>
>
> Jason Ostrowski
> Friendly Ghost Racing
> 1969 Triumph GT6+ racecars
>
> Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From tedtsimx at bright.net  Wed Aug  7 06:47:16 2024
From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 08:47:16 -0400
Subject: [Fot] The best rear brakes ever.
In-Reply-To: <CAO0FjVbddy25f5UoSa_SToZG=Fa_bHLSbjJb1vuQK485wL9hbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C93B5AF3-BD83-4805-A43A-E5624F25811F@multivintage.com>
 <CAO0FjVbddy25f5UoSa_SToZG=Fa_bHLSbjJb1vuQK485wL9hbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a52265ae-1e82-498a-b86f-40e626dcb9dd@bright.net>

These are segmented brake shoes.? This is done when friction material 
will not bend to conform to shoe diameter.? It was a common practice 
years ago when Velvetouch material was available.? Velvetouch would not 
"bend" so material was cut into smaller segments the could be attached 
to brake shoe. Ted


On 8/7/2024 7:42 AM, Mike Harmuth via Fot wrote:
> 10% less contact area?
>
> Is this the drum brake version of a slotted rotor?
>
> Who makes them?
>
> thanks
> mike h
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 12:54?AM Jason Ostrowski via Fot 
> <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>     This is a cool tidbit
>     The best rear brake shoes I have ever used are shown below.
>     These are currently being used by me and have been working great.
>     Notice anything unusual?
>
>
>
>     Jason Ostrowski
>     Friendly Ghost Racing
>     1969 Triumph GT6+ racecars
>
>     Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________
>     fot at autox.team.net
>
>     http://www.fot-racing.com
>
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive
>     http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>     Unsubscribe/Manage
>     <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>     http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive:http://autox.team.net/archive  http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tedtsimx at bright.net
>
>


-- 
Ted Schumacher
tedtsimx at bright.net
http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com
305 S. Jefferson St.
Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877
Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada)
Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022
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From jason at multivintage.com  Wed Aug  7 14:45:47 2024
From: jason at multivintage.com (Jason Ostrowski)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 15:45:47 -0500
Subject: [Fot] The best rear brakes ever.
In-Reply-To: <a52265ae-1e82-498a-b86f-40e626dcb9dd@bright.net>
References: <a52265ae-1e82-498a-b86f-40e626dcb9dd@bright.net>
Message-ID: <97DE49E8-36C1-4ADF-9D76-5569039A592C@multivintage.com>

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From dave at microworks.net  Thu Aug  8 19:46:17 2024
From: dave at microworks.net (Dave Riddle)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 01:46:17 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Sequences of photo montages from the 2024 Kastner
Message-ID: <SN7PR14MB70430D2D545F2095D7CD0859B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Hunter Smith took quite a few photo sequences during the Kastner Cup weekend at Sonoma this year.
I assembled them in to a series of montages with .25 of a second between images

Opening three segments were shot at the top of the hill of Turn 3A featuring the TS2 Pace Car and the entire field. Then he got down to Turn 10.
First segment is of me in the BajaTR3.
Second segment is Henry Morrison and Bruce Thomas
Third segment is Arthur Van Diggelen
Fourth segment is Rick McCurdy
Fifth segment is Walter Hollowell and Will Hart
Sixth segment is Curt Johnston and Tony Drews Seventh segment is Jon Gannaway, Jerry L. Barker, Gregory Thompson & Bryan Brazelton

Enjoy!

[MWLOGO-Signature]<http://www.microworks.net/>
Dave Riddle
Business IT Consulting
Office: 480.610.8234
Cell: 602.692.5276
eMail: dave at microworks.net<mailto:dave at microworks.net>
Website: http://www.microworks.net<http://www.microworks.net/>
[Microsoft-Partner-Network]<https://partner.microsoft.com/en-US/>[ace_1_orig]<https://www.acronis.com/en-us/>[CCCLogo]<https://www.clio.com/>[cityhosted-authorized-dealer_orig]<https://www.citycommunications.com/>

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From jhasty at mhc-law.com  Thu Aug  8 21:07:00 2024
From: jhasty at mhc-law.com (John H. Hasty)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 03:07:00 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Sequences of photo montages from the 2024 Kastner
In-Reply-To: <SN7PR14MB70430D2D545F2095D7CD0859B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN7PR14MB70430D2D545F2095D7CD0859B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <941C8686-9A68-49B4-873D-5C99EE9B1D04@mhc-law.com>


Sent from my iPhone

I can?t find anything to download?

On Aug 8, 2024, at 9:53?PM, Dave Riddle via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

?
Hunter Smith took quite a few photo sequences during the Kastner Cup weekend at Sonoma this year.
I assembled them in to a series of montages with .25 of a second between images

Opening three segments were shot at the top of the hill of Turn 3A featuring the TS2 Pace Car and the entire field. Then he got down to Turn 10.
First segment is of me in the BajaTR3.
Second segment is Henry Morrison and Bruce Thomas
Third segment is Arthur Van Diggelen
Fourth segment is Rick McCurdy
Fifth segment is Walter Hollowell and Will Hart
Sixth segment is Curt Johnston and Tony Drews Seventh segment is Jon Gannaway, Jerry L. Barker, Gregory Thompson & Bryan Brazelton

Enjoy!

<http://www.microworks.net/>
<image001.jpg>
Dave Riddle
Business IT Consulting
Office: 480.610.8234
Cell: 602.692.5276
eMail: dave at microworks.net<mailto:dave at microworks.net>
Website: http://www.microworks.net<http://www.microworks.net/>
<https://partner.microsoft.com/en-US/>
<image002.png>
<https://www.acronis.com/en-us/>
<image003.png>
<https://www.clio.com/>
<image004.png>
<https://www.citycommunications.com/>
<image005.png>

_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From dave at microworks.net  Thu Aug  8 22:11:02 2024
From: dave at microworks.net (Dave Riddle)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 04:11:02 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Doh!  Would have been helpful to share the YouTube link!
Message-ID: <SN7PR14MB7043032113A3C5B2C5AF1596B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Here is that video montage from Kastner 2024

https://youtu.be/5UV4IcY003I?si=ShzY6oghIunbv0Dj



[MWLOGO-Signature]<http://www.microworks.net/>
Dave Riddle
Business IT Consulting
Office: 480.610.8234
Cell: 602.692.5276
eMail: dave at microworks.net<mailto:dave at microworks.net>
Website: http://www.microworks.net<http://www.microworks.net/>
[Microsoft-Partner-Network]<https://partner.microsoft.com/en-US/>[ace_1_orig]<https://www.acronis.com/en-us/>[CCCLogo]<https://www.clio.com/>[cityhosted-authorized-dealer_orig]<https://www.citycommunications.com/>

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From jhasty at mhc-law.com  Thu Aug  8 22:33:55 2024
From: jhasty at mhc-law.com (John H. Hasty)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 04:33:55 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Doh!  Would have been helpful to share the YouTube link!
In-Reply-To: <SN7PR14MB7043032113A3C5B2C5AF1596B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN7PR14MB7043032113A3C5B2C5AF1596B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <43255F4E-F37C-4A6C-9D77-AE639779D1BF@mhc-law.com>


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2024, at 12:17?AM, Dave Riddle via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

?
Here is that video montage from Kastner 2024

https://youtu.be/5UV4IcY003I?si=ShzY6oghIunbv0Dj



<http://www.microworks.net/>
<image001.jpg>
Dave Riddle
Business IT Consulting
Office: 480.610.8234
Cell: 602.692.5276
eMail: dave at microworks.net<mailto:dave at microworks.net>
Website: http://www.microworks.net<http://www.microworks.net/>
<https://partner.microsoft.com/en-US/>
<image002.png>
<https://www.acronis.com/en-us/>
<image003.png>
<https://www.clio.com/>
<image004.png>
<https://www.citycommunications.com/>
<image005.png>

_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From jhasty at mhc-law.com  Thu Aug  8 22:34:23 2024
From: jhasty at mhc-law.com (John H. Hasty)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 04:34:23 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Doh!  Would have been helpful to share the YouTube link!
In-Reply-To: <SN7PR14MB7043032113A3C5B2C5AF1596B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN7PR14MB7043032113A3C5B2C5AF1596B5BA2@SN7PR14MB7043.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <0D000682-4A41-499A-816A-6E2953893699@mhc-law.com>

Thanks?.neat
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2024, at 12:17?AM, Dave Riddle via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

?
Here is that video montage from Kastner 2024

https://youtu.be/5UV4IcY003I?si=ShzY6oghIunbv0Dj



<http://www.microworks.net/>
<image001.jpg>
Dave Riddle
Business IT Consulting
Office: 480.610.8234
Cell: 602.692.5276
eMail: dave at microworks.net<mailto:dave at microworks.net>
Website: http://www.microworks.net<http://www.microworks.net/>
<https://partner.microsoft.com/en-US/>
<image002.png>
<https://www.acronis.com/en-us/>
<image003.png>
<https://www.clio.com/>
<image004.png>
<https://www.citycommunications.com/>
<image005.png>

_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jhasty at mhc-law.com


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From vintageclassicsus at outlook.com  Fri Aug  9 10:47:20 2024
From: vintageclassicsus at outlook.com (Tony Garmey)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 16:47:20 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Racing in the PNW
Message-ID: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Paging west coast racers !

 Couple of great races up in the Pacific Northwest west.
The Portland race is shared with the all British field meet. All very fun and low key. On track 3 times a day .

[IMG_2776.PNG]

Sent from my iPhone
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From gt6racer at msn.com  Fri Aug  9 12:09:57 2024
From: gt6racer at msn.com (Andrew Devenish)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 18:09:57 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

Guys, 
          My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn. 
         I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
        After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable. 
       I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

       Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
     

Thank you, 
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad
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From cudapilot at comcast.net  Fri Aug  9 13:16:50 2024
From: cudapilot at comcast.net (Brian Garcia)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 14:16:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Fot] Race Car bill of sale - Canada Question
Message-ID: <1575491490.578658.1723231011003@connect.xfinity.com>

Good afternoon, gents.
 
I have a friend that is looking at a race car in the Toronto area that is not titled as it was built from a body in white.  Does anyone have any experience buying a race car in Canada and bringing it to the US?  If so, wondering if you did it yourself or used an importer that you would recommend.  If the former, any resources you could point me to would be great.  Thanks!
 
Brian
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From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com  Fri Aug  9 13:23:58 2024
From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 19:23:58 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <BN7PR15MB22438B40BD8FE78C01717855E1BA2@BN7PR15MB2243.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>

What is your fuel pump and regulator combination?  I had similar problems with my similarly-spec'd 1300 engine.  Jack Drews worked out a theory with regard to mismatches of fuel pump and regulator.  If you wanted the specifics, you could dig back through the archives to find the discussions of it.  But the upshot of it was that if you have a pump that is putting out pressure at a level too close to the post-regulator pressure you're shooting for, it can cause trouble.  At his recommendation, I switched to a Holley Blue pump with the standard Holley regulator.  It worked for me.

Scott (B.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Andrew Devenish via Fot
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2024 1:10 PM
To: Tony Garmey <vintageclassicsus at outlook.com>
Cc: FOT Triumph <fot at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue

Guys, 
          My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn. 
         I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
        After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable. 
       I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

       Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
     

Thank you, 
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

From triumphsix at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  9 13:45:10 2024
From: triumphsix at yahoo.com (David Gott)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 19:45:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1848605560.3132684.1723232710314@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Andrew,

If you have fuel pressure, it almost sounds like a coil getting hot and failing. ?Working again when it cools off. ? What are you running for ignition? ?I?ve also had a pertronix do the same thing?

A wise man once told me 90% of carb problems are ignition (and vice versa). Haha. ?You know who you are?? I could we way off base?.
Dave Gott


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, August 9, 2024, 2:52 PM, Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Guys, 
? ? ? ? ? My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft? or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn. 
? ? ? ? I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
? ? ? ? After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable. 
? ? ? I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

? ? ? Any ideas ?? Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
? ? 

Thank you, 
? ? ? Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From ofracer at gmail.com  Fri Aug  9 13:51:36 2024
From: ofracer at gmail.com (Mike Harmuth)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 15:51:36 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?

2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the
fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to
fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting
more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let
it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see
where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
enough fuel, more down the list for now.
link to flow and fuel requirements chart
https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf

3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down
and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the
jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get
past the blockage.
[image: IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg]

4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With
the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs
to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a
gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?

Happy hunting

mike h

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Guys,
>           My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is
> still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still
> same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard (
> 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to
> turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it
> without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a
> turn.
>          I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and
> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles
> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid,
> but have tried 50 weight too.
>         After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to
> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
> will run, but is unstable.
>        I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they
> do still get hot.
>
>        Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From gt6racer at msn.com  Fri Aug  9 15:10:09 2024
From: gt6racer at msn.com (Andrew Devenish)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 21:10:09 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Mike,
          The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
        I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.
        The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
      2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.
      As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
    3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
    4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.
    5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.


       Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?

Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?

2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.
link to flow and fuel requirements chart https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf

3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.
<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>

4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?

Happy hunting

mike h

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
Guys,
          My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
         I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
        After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
       I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

       Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>

http://www.fot-racing.com<http://www.fot-racing.com/>

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage<http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com


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From cmstenquist at gmail.com  Fri Aug  9 15:54:45 2024
From: cmstenquist at gmail.com (carl stenquist)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 17:54:45 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALb90vzBf6KApzT12cgb1Og1tWPYx9nuroedA2dPGZrcAMFBsw@mail.gmail.com>

Does this happen in both right and left turns,  on such a small run try the
opposite direction, could be float hinge problems if it always quits in a
corner.
Carl Stenquist

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 5:44?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>           The first question is a good one. The car was built for
> autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from
> a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He
> had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but
> that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston
> because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
>         I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little
> lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs
> great, unless it doesn?t ?.
>         The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought
> the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but
> while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
>       2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH
> and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had
> taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap
> solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
> I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is
> plenty.
>       As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
>     3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the
> jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would
> change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if
> it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is
> possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops
> - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a
> busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is
> heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run
> autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle
> (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then
> go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
>     4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows
> up only when hot.
>     5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on
> crank with throttles open.
>
>
>        Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all
> on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
> 1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
>
> 2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect
> the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
> clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to
> fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting
> more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let
> it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see
> where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
> and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
> back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
> pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
> actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
> indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
> enough fuel, more down the list for now.
> link to flow and fuel requirements chart
> https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
>
> 3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down
> and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
> line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
> June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the
> jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get
> past the blockage.
> <IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
>
> 4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?
> With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block,
> carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in
> through a gap.
>
> 5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
>
> Happy hunting
>
> mike h
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>           My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 )
>> is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but
>> still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the
>> yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then
>> braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m
>> running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the
>> entry to a turn.
>>          I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and
>> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles
>> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid,
>> but have tried 50 weight too.
>>         After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to
>> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
>> will run, but is unstable.
>>        I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they
>> do still get hot.
>>
>>        Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
>> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>       Andrew Devenish
>>
>> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/cmstenquist at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From gt6racer at msn.com  Fri Aug  9 16:34:56 2024
From: gt6racer at msn.com (Andrew Devenish)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 22:34:56 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <CALb90vzBf6KApzT12cgb1Og1tWPYx9nuroedA2dPGZrcAMFBsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALb90vzBf6KApzT12cgb1Og1tWPYx9nuroedA2dPGZrcAMFBsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <IA0PR10MB6891E605B41BE1E2E5B1FFAD87BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

Carl, thanks, I?ll try it. However, it?s just on the entry, so I think more of a consequence of the fuel use on the ?straight?.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:54?PM, carl stenquist <cmstenquist at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Does this happen in both right and left turns,  on such a small run try the opposite direction, could be float hinge problems if it always quits in a corner.
Carl Stenquist

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 5:44?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
          The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
        I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.
        The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
      2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.
      As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
    3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
    4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.
    5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.


       Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?

Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com<mailto:ofracer at gmail.com>> wrote:

?
Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?

2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.
link to flow and fuel requirements chart https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf

3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.
<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>

4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?

Happy hunting

mike h

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
Guys,
          My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
         I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
        After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
       I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

       Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>

http://www.fot-racing.com<http://www.fot-racing.com/>

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage<http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com


_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>

http://www.fot-racing.com<http://www.fot-racing.com/>

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From rkramer56 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  9 17:14:50 2024
From: rkramer56 at gmail.com (Bob Kramer)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 18:14:50 -0500
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CABFvdWu1_t1sAO5xe88-jUdq_z_DBzQ0n1dZMqann04B3FSEFg@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,

Is it possible that a carburetor piston is sticking in the up position
off and on?  This problem is exacerbated by a hot engine, and it is hard to
find after you stop driving because unless it gets stuck tight it will drop
back down with vibration.

Bob Kramer


On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 4:47?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>           The first question is a good one. The car was built for
> autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from
> a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He
> had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but
> that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston
> because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
>         I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little
> lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs
> great, unless it doesn?t ?.
>         The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought
> the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but
> while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
>       2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH
> and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had
> taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap
> solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
> I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is
> plenty.
>       As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
>     3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the
> jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would
> change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if
> it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is
> possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops
> - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a
> busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is
> heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run
> autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle
> (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then
> go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
>     4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows
> up only when hot.
>     5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on
> crank with throttles open.
>
>
>        Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all
> on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
> 1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
>
> 2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect
> the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
> clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to
> fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting
> more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let
> it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see
> where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
> and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
> back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
> pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
> actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
> indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
> enough fuel, more down the list for now.
> link to flow and fuel requirements chart
> https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
>
> 3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down
> and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
> line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
> June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the
> jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get
> past the blockage.
> <IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
>
> 4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?
> With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block,
> carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in
> through a gap.
>
> 5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
>
> Happy hunting
>
> mike h
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>           My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 )
>> is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but
>> still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the
>> yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then
>> braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m
>> running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the
>> entry to a turn.
>>          I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and
>> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles
>> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid,
>> but have tried 50 weight too.
>>         After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to
>> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
>> will run, but is unstable.
>>        I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they
>> do still get hot.
>>
>>        Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
>> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>       Andrew Devenish
>>
>> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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>
>
>
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From yellow04 at tr4racer.com  Sat Aug 10 05:03:52 2024
From: yellow04 at tr4racer.com (yellow04)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 07:03:52 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <1848605560.3132684.1723232710314@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <1848605560.3132684.1723232710314@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <59a076ebeb64ad2f82d1d843d396c9dd@tr4racer.com>

Andrew,

I agree with Dave, you are looking at the wrong side of the engine... 
Your symptoms sound to me like the coil is breaking down when it gets 
hot under load.

Or, if you are running an electronic ignition system, the old adage of 
"they work fine until they die" doesn't hold up in my book anymore. 
Swapping out the electronic ignition for a points and condenser setup 
has fixed issues multiple times in multiple cars for me over the past 
couple years!

Henry - certainly not the wise man Dave was referring to!

On 2024-08-09 15:45, David Gott via Fot wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> If you have fuel pressure, it almost sounds like a coil getting hot
> and failing.  Working again when it cools off.   What are you running
> for ignition?  I?ve also had a pertronix do the same thing?
> 
> A wise man once told me 90% of carb problems are ignition (and vice
> versa). Haha.  You know who you are?  I could we way off base?.
> 
> Dave Gott
> 

From gt6racer at msn.com  Sat Aug 10 05:46:29 2024
From: gt6racer at msn.com (Andrew Devenish)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 11:46:29 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <59a076ebeb64ad2f82d1d843d396c9dd@tr4racer.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394DCA2C6C16D8B743A095BABBA2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891AEFD5A96F8B8DED8575087BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <1848605560.3132684.1723232710314@mail.yahoo.com>
 <59a076ebeb64ad2f82d1d843d396c9dd@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <IA0PR10MB6891FFA20D88296C453C763E87BB2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Henry, Thanks for the input. I?m running a magnetic pickup. I?ll check the potential of electrical issue too - I can easily borrow the parts from my road going car.
Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 10, 2024, at 7:21?AM, yellow04 via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> ?Andrew,
>
> I agree with Dave, you are looking at the wrong side of the engine... Your symptoms sound to me like the coil is breaking down when it gets hot under load.
>
> Or, if you are running an electronic ignition system, the old adage of "they work fine until they die" doesn't hold up in my book anymore. Swapping out the electronic ignition for a points and condenser setup has fixed issues multiple times in multiple cars for me over the past couple years!
>
> Henry - certainly not the wise man Dave was referring to!
>
>> On 2024-08-09 15:45, David Gott via Fot wrote:
>> Hi Andrew,
>> If you have fuel pressure, it almost sounds like a coil getting hot
>> and failing.  Working again when it cools off.   What are you running
>> for ignition?  I?ve also had a pertronix do the same thing?
>> A wise man once told me 90% of carb problems are ignition (and vice
>> versa). Haha.  You know who you are?  I could we way off base?.
>> Dave Gott
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com/
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/gt6racer at msn.com
>
>

From mckearn2 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 12 07:57:49 2024
From: mckearn2 at gmail.com (McKearn McKearn)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 08:57:49 -0500
Subject: [Fot] The best rear brakes ever.
In-Reply-To: <97DE49E8-36C1-4ADF-9D76-5569039A592C@multivintage.com>
References: <a52265ae-1e82-498a-b86f-40e626dcb9dd@bright.net>
 <97DE49E8-36C1-4ADF-9D76-5569039A592C@multivintage.com>
Message-ID: <CAAGAaPXOXiYaavfd1G+YN49kQJMXwQXyKipZSOpppqkFY-dc6g@mail.gmail.com>

Actually I think what makes those pads work so well was the installation....
                                               P.J.

On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:15?PM Jason Ostrowski via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Well, Ted would know!
> I can?t speak about the Velvetouch reference, but that is interesting.
> This set was manufactured by Raybestos, In the 1980?s.
> They came with my car as part of the spares package.
> I saved them for many years always wondering if they would hold up.
> Prior to the 2023 Kastner Cup at RA, We put them on the car mostly because
> it was the only set we could find while rummaging through parts boxes in
> somewhat of a panic as a pre-race prep found us in dire need of a set of
> race shoes.
> They felt great from the start and have held up better than the carbotech
> ones we typically use.
> The ware has been very even and the friction material and drums look spot
> on-
> I?m not sure if it?s the quality of the friction material or the 4 segment
> design (but they sure work good)! We are keeping them in use after over 20
> hard race sessions.
> I might explore getting some like these made in a small batch since the
> stats all seem to point to a very good design.
> Anyone have a friend or contact at Raybestos or hard thoughts on the
> matter?
>
> Jason Ostrowski
> Friendly Ghost Racing
> 1969 Triumph GT6+ racecars
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 7, 2024, at 8:23 AM, Ted Schumacher via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
> ?
> These are segmented brake shoes.  This is done when friction material will
> not bend to conform to shoe diameter.  It was a common practice years ago
> when Velvetouch material was available.  Velvetouch would not "bend" so
> material was cut into smaller segments the could be attached to brake shoe.
> Ted
>
>
> On 8/7/2024 7:42 AM, Mike Harmuth via Fot wrote:
>
> 10% less contact area?
>
> Is this the drum brake version of a slotted rotor?
>
> Who makes them?
>
> thanks
> mike h
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 12:54?AM Jason Ostrowski via Fot <
> fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> This is a cool tidbit
>> The best rear brake shoes I have ever used are shown below.
>> These are currently being used by me and have been working great.
>> Notice anything unusual?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Ostrowski
>> Friendly Ghost Racing
>> 1969 Triumph GT6+ racecars
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________fot at autox.team.net
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tedtsimx at bright.net
>
>
>
> --
> Ted Schumachertedtsimx at bright.nethttp://www.tsimportedautomotive.com
> 305 S. Jefferson St.
> Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877
> Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada)
> Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jason at multivintage.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/mckearn2 at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From gt6racer at msn.com  Wed Aug 14 12:57:00 2024
From: gt6racer at msn.com (Andrew Devenish)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:57:00 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

I thought an update might be in order.
Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.
I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.
Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Still not fixed.
Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.

A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm set up per Pertronix.
 I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.
As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ?
Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.

Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:

? Hi Mike,
          The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
        I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.
        The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
      2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.
      As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
    3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
    4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.
    5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.


       Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?

Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:

?
Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?

2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.
link to flow and fuel requirements chart https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf

3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.
<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>

4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?

Happy hunting

mike h

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
Guys,
          My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
         I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
        After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
       I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

       Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>

http://www.fot-racing.com<http://www.fot-racing.com/>

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From terrysopher at gmail.com  Wed Aug 14 14:30:43 2024
From: terrysopher at gmail.com (Terry Sopher)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 16:30:43 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <8EE25948-6BC5-4701-BD9F-B57E6667725F@gmail.com>

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From triumphsix at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 14 15:07:16 2024
From: triumphsix at yahoo.com (David Gott)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 21:07:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <237359612.4164619.1723669636034@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Andrew,
I?ve had 3 different pertonix all not work right. ?Every time I went back to points, it ran great. ?I?m currently running points with a Bosch Blue epoxy filled coil.?
I have also picked up a FAST optical ignition system to start running if/when points start getting unreliable. ?I?ve seen a certain fast 250 running that setup, and I expect it billet proof pending any excess oil flying around (what, oil on a triumph? ?LOL)
Your failure is exactly what I found from pertronix even though they say it ?either works or it doesn?t? but that was not my experience.
Hope that helps!
Dave Gott


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, August 14, 2024, 4:45 PM, Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

I thought an update might be in order.Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Still not fixed.Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.?
A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm set up per Pertronix.?I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ??Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:



? Hi Mike,? ? ? ? ? The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).?? ? ? ? I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.? ? ? ? The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.? ? ? 2) ? The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.?? ? ? As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.? ? 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !?? ? 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.?? ? 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.
? ? ?? ? ? ?Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:



?Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure?i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).? If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.link to flow and fuel requirements chart?https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
3. A problem I had with an identical?set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped?well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened?to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
Happy hunting
mike h
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Guys, 
? ? ? ? ? My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft? or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
? ? ? ? ?I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
? ? ? ? After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
? ? ? ?I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

? ? ? ?Any ideas ?? Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you, 
? ? ? Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

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From billbab at icloud.com  Wed Aug 14 16:33:42 2024
From: billbab at icloud.com (Bill Babcock)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 15:33:42 -0700
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
Message-ID: <1ADE0B45-BC29-404C-B8AD-7C93B6C51343@icloud.com>

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From david.c.cutter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 15 05:12:58 2024
From: david.c.cutter at gmail.com (David Cutter)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 07:12:58 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <237359612.4164619.1723669636034@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <237359612.4164619.1723669636034@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAC5qWeDHfQuAMCOFZMBSKFEGg8urzmDsfH7SFbuSqsRyRq2G3w@mail.gmail.com>

Had same intermittent Pertronix failures and chased our tail for a whole
season.  Switched to TrueSpark and it ran flawlessly for multiple years.
Upgraded to CSI for the rev limiter.  TrueSpark (and a set of points) are
our spares.

Cheers, Dave and Shelby

On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 6:31?PM David Gott via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> I?ve had 3 different pertonix all not work right.  Every time I went back
> to points, it ran great.  I?m currently running points with a Bosch Blue
> epoxy filled coil.
>
> I have also picked up a FAST optical ignition system to start running
> if/when points start getting unreliable.  I?ve seen a certain fast 250
> running that setup, and I expect it billet proof pending any excess oil
> flying around (what, oil on a triumph?  LOL)
>
> Your failure is exactly what I found from pertronix even though they say
> it ?either works or it doesn?t? but that was not my experience.
>
> Hope that helps!
>
> Dave Gott
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_>
>
> On Wednesday, August 14, 2024, 4:45 PM, Andrew Devenish via Fot <
> fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> I thought an update might be in order.
> Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.
> I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black
> debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not
> fix the problem.
> Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is
> well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design
> as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure
> regulators. Still not fixed.
> Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on
> since this issue has been around with no change.
>
> A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel
> issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I
> run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm
> set up per Pertronix.
>  I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was
> defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old
> coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs,
> and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from
> Pertronix direct.
> As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and
> for coil with good success ?
> Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:
>
> ? Hi Mike,
>           The first question is a good one. The car was built for
> autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from
> a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He
> had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but
> that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston
> because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
>         I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little
> lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs
> great, unless it doesn?t ?.
>         The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought
> the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but
> while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
>       2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH
> and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had
> taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap
> solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
> I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is
> plenty.
>       As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
>     3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the
> jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would
> change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if
> it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is
> possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops
> - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a
> busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is
> heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run
> autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle
> (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then
> go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
>     4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows
> up only when hot.
>     5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on
> crank with throttles open.
>
>
>        Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all
> on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
> 1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
>
> 2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect
> the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
> clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to
> fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting
> more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let
> it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see
> where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
> and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
> back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
> pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
> actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
> indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
> enough fuel, more down the list for now.
> link to flow and fuel requirements chart
> https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
>
> 3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down
> and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
> line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
> June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the
> jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get
> past the blockage.
> <IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
>
> 4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?
> With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block,
> carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in
> through a gap.
>
> 5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
>
> Happy hunting
>
> mike h
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>           My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is
> still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still
> same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard (
> 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to
> turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it
> without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a
> turn.
>          I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and
> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles
> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid,
> but have tried 50 weight too.
>         After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to
> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
> will run, but is unstable.
>        I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they
> do still get hot.
>
>        Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/triumphsix at yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
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>
>
>
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From vfracing at aol.com  Thu Aug 15 05:29:45 2024
From: vfracing at aol.com (Philip Gott)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 07:29:45 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <237359612.4164619.1723669636034@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <237359612.4164619.1723669636034@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <693C6279-7CBF-4D43-B4BB-28BD49219C76@aol.com>

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From robertlangtr6 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 15 06:01:45 2024
From: robertlangtr6 at yahoo.com (Robert Lang)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 12:01:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <440039805.8064299.1723723305999@mail.yahoo.com>

 Hi,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds frustrating.
A couple of things:
I switched to epoxy-filled coils quite a while ago - like 20 years. I did this because it seems the epoxy stands up better in heat and vibration. Also, one in a while I will forget to turn of my ignition and master switch when doing full tune-ups and I have had oil-filled coils over heat and burst. Never had an epoxy coil fail from heat. So I stick with recommending epoxy filled coils.
Regarding the trigger - the more you get into electronic ignition, the more sensitive your system will be to the quality of your DC power source. There are variables in these systems, so you need to match your choice with the rest of your electrical system. For very sensitive systems, running a total loss electrical system gets you clean power, but you add maintenance for you battery and charging. Conversely, points systems require some fiddling but you can run with voltage spikes and dips with almost no effect on the system. I any case, it's never a bad idea to have a primary and a secondary system that you can swap in / out easily at the track. To wit: I run one system (Mallory dual point converted to Pertronix Ignitor II with an MSD Blaster coil) and I have a spare Mallory setup that will have either a different Pertronix setup or a dual points setup, depending on my whim - in the spares for the weekend. And this is important: TESTED AND VERIFIED prior to getting to the track. Given my semi-laid-back track MO, going beyond those two option means loading the car on the trailer and just socializing. If you want to get away from fiddly bits like points and depending on the rules where you run, you can't beat a crank-triggered ignition. But: electronics.

Regarding the debris in the fuel bowls - you should track that down. Crap in the fuel just doesn't materialize from thin air. Black bits says fuel line. I'd do a prophylactic fuel line change if I saw black bits in the carb bowls.
Back to distributors - I've been hoarding stock Lucas distributors and bashing them together to complete units and then getting one of the major players (Jeff at Advanced Distributor or Rob at British Vacuum) to do a proper rebuild. That provides and excellent baseline from which to "play" with longer dwell etc to get a nice fat spark. The one drawback to running a single point system is that you are limited to how much dwell you can get (reliably). The more dwell you run, the more fiddling you have to do to stay on top of it. This is where dual point setups and electronic systems shine. Less maintenance... in theory.

Last - the most reliable electronic setup I ever had was the Crane (now FAST) Fireball setups (700 and 3000). One XR700 in a TR6 with a worn distributor fixed all the ignition problems I had been having. I haven't used the new FAST setup, but unless they made major engineering changes to it, it should be rock solid. The one thing I did not like was that you're pretty much stuck with the dwell that you get - but trust me, it was more than adequate to light a TR6 with a flowed head and Webers while I was tuning the jets (and float height).
Regards,Bob Lang339-927-4489

    On Wednesday, August 14, 2024 at 04:31:22 PM EDT, Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 I thought an update might be in order.Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Still not fixed.Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.?
A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm set up per Pertronix.?I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ??Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:



? Hi Mike,? ? ? ? ? The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).?? ? ? ? I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.? ? ? ? The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.? ? ? 2) ? The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.?? ? ? As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.? ? 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !?? ? 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.?? ? 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.
? ? ?? ? ? ?Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:



?Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure?i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).? If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.link to flow and fuel requirements chart?https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
3. A problem I had with an identical?set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped?well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened?to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
Happy hunting
mike h
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Guys, 
? ? ? ? ? My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft? or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
? ? ? ? ?I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
? ? ? ? After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
? ? ? ?I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

? ? ? ?Any ideas ?? Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you, 
? ? ? Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
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From rkramer56 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 15 06:44:07 2024
From: rkramer56 at gmail.com (Bob Kramer)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 07:44:07 -0500
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <440039805.8064299.1723723305999@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <440039805.8064299.1723723305999@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABFvdWsN3PeHX0hPvAmc3vbjWyB7u7NGYTfZX3Xj+=y--wPCnw@mail.gmail.com>

I sent Andrew a message to check the pickup lines in the fuel cell. I have
black crap in the float bowls and tracked it down to the pickup line, which
turned out to be the blue-coated, push-on style hose commonly sold in
replacement hose kits. The blue stuff looked great but the black portion
crumbled to the tough. I used good old rubber in its place.
Bob Kramer


On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 7:31?AM Robert Lang via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds frustrating.
>
> A couple of things:
>
> I switched to epoxy-filled coils quite a while ago - like 20 years. I did
> this because it seems the epoxy stands up better in heat and vibration.
> Also, one in a while I will forget to turn of my ignition and master switch
> when doing full tune-ups and I have had oil-filled coils over heat and
> burst. Never had an epoxy coil fail from heat. So I stick with recommending
> epoxy filled coils.
>
> Regarding the trigger - the more you get into electronic ignition, the
> more sensitive your system will be to the quality of your DC power source.
> There are variables in these systems, so you need to match your choice with
> the rest of your electrical system. For very sensitive systems, running a
> total loss electrical system gets you clean power, but you add maintenance
> for you battery and charging. Conversely, points systems require some
> fiddling but you can run with voltage spikes and dips with almost no effect
> on the system. I any case, it's never a bad idea to have a primary and a
> secondary system that you can swap in / out easily at the track. To wit: I
> run one system (Mallory dual point converted to Pertronix Ignitor II with
> an MSD Blaster coil) and I have a spare Mallory setup that will have either
> a different Pertronix setup or a dual points setup, depending on my whim -
> in the spares for the weekend. And this is important: TESTED AND VERIFIED
> prior to getting to the track. Given my semi-laid-back track MO, going
> beyond those two option means loading the car on the trailer and just
> socializing. If you want to get away from fiddly bits like points and
> depending on the rules where you run, you can't beat a crank-triggered
> ignition. But: electronics.
>
> Regarding the debris in the fuel bowls - you should track that down. Crap
> in the fuel just doesn't materialize from thin air. Black bits says fuel
> line. I'd do a prophylactic fuel line change if I saw black bits in the
> carb bowls.
>
> Back to distributors - I've been hoarding stock Lucas distributors and
> bashing them together to complete units and then getting one of the major
> players (Jeff at Advanced Distributor or Rob at British Vacuum) to do a
> proper rebuild. That provides and excellent baseline from which to "play"
> with longer dwell etc to get a nice fat spark. The one drawback to running
> a single point system is that you are limited to how much dwell you can get
> (reliably). The more dwell you run, the more fiddling you have to do to
> stay on top of it. This is where dual point setups and electronic systems
> shine. Less maintenance... in theory.
>
> Last - the most reliable electronic setup I ever had was the Crane (now
> FAST) Fireball setups (700 and 3000). One XR700 in a TR6 with a worn
> distributor fixed all the ignition problems I had been having. I haven't
> used the new FAST setup, but unless they made major engineering changes to
> it, it should be rock solid. The one thing I did not like was that you're
> pretty much stuck with the dwell that you get - but trust me, it was more
> than adequate to light a TR6 with a flowed head and Webers while I was
> tuning the jets (and float height).
>
> Regards,
> Bob Lang
> 339-927-4489
>
> On Wednesday, August 14, 2024 at 04:31:22 PM EDT, Andrew Devenish via Fot <
> fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>
> I thought an update might be in order.
> Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.
> I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black
> debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not
> fix the problem.
> Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is
> well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design
> as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure
> regulators. Still not fixed.
> Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on
> since this issue has been around with no change.
>
> A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel
> issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I
> run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm
> set up per Pertronix.
>  I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was
> defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old
> coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs,
> and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from
> Pertronix direct.
> As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and
> for coil with good success ?
> Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:
>
> ? Hi Mike,
>           The first question is a good one. The car was built for
> autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from
> a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He
> had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but
> that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston
> because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
>         I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little
> lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs
> great, unless it doesn?t ?.
>         The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought
> the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but
> while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
>       2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH
> and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had
> taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap
> solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
> I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is
> plenty.
>       As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
>     3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the
> jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would
> change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if
> it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is
> possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops
> - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a
> busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is
> heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run
> autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle
> (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then
> go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
>     4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows
> up only when hot.
>     5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on
> crank with throttles open.
>
>
>        Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all
> on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
> 1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
>
> 2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect
> the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
> clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to
> fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting
> more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let
> it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see
> where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
> and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
> back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
> pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
> actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
> indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
> enough fuel, more down the list for now.
> link to flow and fuel requirements chart
> https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
>
> 3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down
> and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
> line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
> June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the
> jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get
> past the blockage.
> <IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
>
> 4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?
> With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block,
> carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in
> through a gap.
>
> 5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
>
> Happy hunting
>
> mike h
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>           My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is
> still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still
> same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard (
> 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to
> turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it
> without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a
> turn.
>          I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and
> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles
> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid,
> but have tried 50 weight too.
>         After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to
> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
> will run, but is unstable.
>        I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they
> do still get hot.
>
>        Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/robertlangtr6 at yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From jason at jsperformancemotoring.com  Thu Aug 15 07:33:40 2024
From: jason at jsperformancemotoring.com (JS Performance Motoring, LLC)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 09:33:40 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN1C=RP4JybGU9ZRWJtjrhNPNttLW1fREMvq72L2LL8egU7kQ@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,
Interesting development with the Pertronix canister style coil.

I did have good luck with them in my own racer and other's for years, until
a string of failures during the past year.  My own failed (epoxy filled),
along with numerous customers (including Terry Sopher, who has already
replied)  with Pertronix canister type coils failing. These have been fired
by points/pertronix/CSI distributors.  The failure seems to be independent
of the ignition type.  Quality control is a real problem for them.

The Pertronix E-core coil is better, although it seems to struggle with a 6
cylinder engine when it gets north of 7,500 RPM and .032" plug gaps.  A
non-issue for a 4 cylinder.

I've been testing an "off label" coil with my CSIPro distributor that looks
promising up to at least 8,000 rpm on a 6 cylinder.

I have been selling  the CSI distributors for a couple of years now, and
they have been great!  I've seen ONE failure due to a MASSIVE overvoltage
situation at max revs (voltmeter needle tried to wrap itself all the way
around!!!).  CSI was able to repair it for a reasonable cost instead of
having to send it to the landfill and start over.  Tech support from the
guy who actually designed the product is superb!




Jason Sukey
JS Performance Motoring, LLC
440.984.7720
jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
https://www.facebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/


On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:09?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> I thought an update might be in order.
> Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.
> I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black
> debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not
> fix the problem.
> Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is
> well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design
> as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure
> regulators. Still not fixed.
> Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on
> since this issue has been around with no change.
>
> A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel
> issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I
> run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm
> set up per Pertronix.
>  I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was
> defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old
> coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs,
> and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from
> Pertronix direct.
> As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and
> for coil with good success ?
> Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:
>
> ? Hi Mike,
>           The first question is a good one. The car was built for
> autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from
> a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He
> had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but
> that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston
> because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
>         I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little
> lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs
> great, unless it doesn?t ?.
>         The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought
> the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but
> while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
>       2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH
> and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had
> taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap
> solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
> I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is
> plenty.
>       As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
>     3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the
> jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would
> change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if
> it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is
> possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops
> - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a
> busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is
> heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run
> autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle
> (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then
> go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
>     4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows
> up only when hot.
>     5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on
> crank with throttles open.
>
>
>        Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all
> on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
> 1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
>
> 2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect
> the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
> clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to
> fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting
> more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let
> it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see
> where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
> and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
> back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
> pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
> actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
> indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
> enough fuel, more down the list for now.
> link to flow and fuel requirements chart
> https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
>
> 3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down
> and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
> line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
> June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the
> jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get
> past the blockage.
> <IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
>
> 4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?
> With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block,
> carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in
> through a gap.
>
> 5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
>
> Happy hunting
>
> mike h
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>           My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 )
>> is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but
>> still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the
>> yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then
>> braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m
>> running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the
>> entry to a turn.
>>          I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and
>> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles
>> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid,
>> but have tried 50 weight too.
>>         After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to
>> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
>> will run, but is unstable.
>>        I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they
>> do still get hot.
>>
>>        Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
>> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>       Andrew Devenish
>>
>> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
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>
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From jason at jsperformancemotoring.com  Thu Aug 15 07:38:07 2024
From: jason at jsperformancemotoring.com (JS Performance Motoring, LLC)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 09:38:07 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN1C=TbJ5eLLD=sRsDmmx+=GZaARxVW98KfB=FFgKUk+iSOUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,
          One further thought:
If your engine is misfiring when your wideband O2 reads lean, it's quite
likely you are seeing a false lean reading due to the unburned oxygen in
the exhaust gas stream related to the misfire, and not due to an actual
air/fuel mixture issue.


Jason Sukey
JS Performance Motoring, LLC
440.984.7720
jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
https://www.facebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/


On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:09?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> I thought an update might be in order.
> Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.
> I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black
> debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not
> fix the problem.
> Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is
> well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design
> as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure
> regulators. Still not fixed.
> Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on
> since this issue has been around with no change.
>
> A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel
> issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I
> run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm
> set up per Pertronix.
>  I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was
> defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old
> coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs,
> and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from
> Pertronix direct.
> As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and
> for coil with good success ?
> Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:
>
> ? Hi Mike,
>           The first question is a good one. The car was built for
> autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from
> a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He
> had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but
> that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston
> because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
>         I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little
> lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs
> great, unless it doesn?t ?.
>         The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought
> the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but
> while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
>       2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH
> and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had
> taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap
> solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
> I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is
> plenty.
>       As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
>     3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the
> jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would
> change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if
> it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is
> possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops
> - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a
> busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is
> heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run
> autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle
> (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then
> go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
>     4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows
> up only when hot.
>     5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on
> crank with throttles open.
>
>
>        Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all
> on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
>
> Thank you,
>       Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
> 1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
>
> 2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect
> the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
> clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to
> fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting
> more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let
> it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see
> where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
> and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
> back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
> pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
> actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
> indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
> enough fuel, more down the list for now.
> link to flow and fuel requirements chart
> https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
>
> 3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down
> and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
> line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
> June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the
> jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get
> past the blockage.
> <IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
>
> 4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?
> With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block,
> carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in
> through a gap.
>
> 5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
>
> Happy hunting
>
> mike h
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>           My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 )
>> is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but
>> still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the
>> yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then
>> braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m
>> running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the
>> entry to a turn.
>>          I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and
>> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles
>> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid,
>> but have tried 50 weight too.
>>         After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to
>> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
>> will run, but is unstable.
>>        I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they
>> do still get hot.
>>
>>        Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
>> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>       Andrew Devenish
>>
>> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
>
>
>
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From billbab at icloud.com  Thu Aug 15 08:15:46 2024
From: billbab at icloud.com (Bill Babcock)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 07:15:46 -0700
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <CALDumpAtKqmsXoLpD-bhyAaD7vtjz-aKYFpDLy_4a80XBBYNWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALDumpAtKqmsXoLpD-bhyAaD7vtjz-aKYFpDLy_4a80XBBYNWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <740F14E8-DE66-4F3C-9CC1-6E5199CB76E2@icloud.com>

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From fubog1 at aol.com  Thu Aug 15 08:21:17 2024
From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 14:21:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <440039805.8064299.1723723305999@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <440039805.8064299.1723723305999@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <925041806.8141784.1723731677402@mail.yahoo.com>

 
Also of course points are very crude & low-tech nowadays, but that doesn't mean that they don't work properly when everything is set up correctly.The Lucas 45D based points-type distributor is a good basis to work with, it has an asymmetrical cam, good separation between cap contacts, & plenty of dwell for a 4-cylinder.Beyond that, I've always had good luck with optical units, ie the old Allison & Electromotive but I don't know what's currently on the market.
Glen Efinger

    On Thursday, August 15, 2024 at 08:33:09 AM EDT, Robert Lang via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:   

  Hi,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds frustrating.
A couple of things:
I switched to epoxy-filled coils quite a while ago - like 20 years. I did this because it seems the epoxy stands up better in heat and vibration. Also, one in a while I will forget to turn of my ignition and master switch when doing full tune-ups and I have had oil-filled coils over heat and burst. Never had an epoxy coil fail from heat. So I stick with recommending epoxy filled coils.
Regarding the trigger - the more you get into electronic ignition, the more sensitive your system will be to the quality of your DC power source. There are variables in these systems, so you need to match your choice with the rest of your electrical system. For very sensitive systems, running a total loss electrical system gets you clean power, but you add maintenance for you battery and charging. Conversely, points systems require some fiddling but you can run with voltage spikes and dips with almost no effect on the system. I any case, it's never a bad idea to have a primary and a secondary system that you can swap in / out easily at the track. To wit: I run one system (Mallory dual point converted to Pertronix Ignitor II with an MSD Blaster coil) and I have a spare Mallory setup that will have either a different Pertronix setup or a dual points setup, depending on my whim - in the spares for the weekend. And this is important: TESTED AND VERIFIED prior to getting to the track. Given my semi-laid-back track MO, going beyond those two option means loading the car on the trailer and just socializing. If you want to get away from fiddly bits like points and depending on the rules where you run, you can't beat a crank-triggered ignition. But: electronics.

Regarding the debris in the fuel bowls - you should track that down. Crap in the fuel just doesn't materialize from thin air. Black bits says fuel line. I'd do a prophylactic fuel line change if I saw black bits in the carb bowls.
Back to distributors - I've been hoarding stock Lucas distributors and bashing them together to complete units and then getting one of the major players (Jeff at Advanced Distributor or Rob at British Vacuum) to do a proper rebuild. That provides and excellent baseline from which to "play" with longer dwell etc to get a nice fat spark. The one drawback to running a single point system is that you are limited to how much dwell you can get (reliably). The more dwell you run, the more fiddling you have to do to stay on top of it. This is where dual point setups and electronic systems shine. Less maintenance... in theory.

Last - the most reliable electronic setup I ever had was the Crane (now FAST) Fireball setups (700 and 3000). One XR700 in a TR6 with a worn distributor fixed all the ignition problems I had been having. I haven't used the new FAST setup, but unless they made major engineering changes to it, it should be rock solid. The one thing I did not like was that you're pretty much stuck with the dwell that you get - but trust me, it was more than adequate to light a TR6 with a flowed head and Webers while I was tuning the jets (and float height).
Regards,Bob Lang339-927-4489

    On Wednesday, August 14, 2024 at 04:31:22 PM EDT, Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 I thought an update might be in order.Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Still not fixed.Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.?
A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm set up per Pertronix.?I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ??Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:



? Hi Mike,? ? ? ? ? The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).?? ? ? ? I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.? ? ? ? The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.? ? ? 2) ? The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.?? ? ? As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.? ? 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !?? ? 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.?? ? 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.
? ? ?? ? ? ?Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:



?Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure?i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).? If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.link to flow and fuel requirements chart?https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
3. A problem I had with an identical?set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped?well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened?to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
Happy hunting
mike h
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Guys, 
? ? ? ? ? My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft? or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
? ? ? ? ?I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
? ? ? ? After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
? ? ? ?I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

? ? ? ?Any ideas ?? Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you, 
? ? ? Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From quikrx at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 15 08:26:56 2024
From: quikrx at yahoo.com (ralph hansen)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 14:26:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <693C6279-7CBF-4D43-B4BB-28BD49219C76@aol.com>
References: <237359612.4164619.1723669636034@mail.yahoo.com>
 <693C6279-7CBF-4D43-B4BB-28BD49219C76@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1614946039.8143889.1723732016484@mail.yahoo.com>

 Many decades back I ran into a fuel issue on my Spit racer. Spent many hours swapping bits in the ignition, checked to be sure the pump was pumping etc. No luck. Finally, out of the blue I just by chance decided to tuen the pump on let it run into a dump can. Ran good and proper about 10 minutes then it just made noise and no pumpy. Replaced pump, problem solved.?
Ralph??
    On Thursday, August 15, 2024 at 07:36:39 AM CDT, Philip Gott via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 It is also important to make sure the distributor is properly grounded. Putting a ground directly to the base plate is the best way to go, whether you run points or electronic pick up such as Pertronix. See photo.No, the regular mounting is not a reliable ground. Every connection is a point of possible failure. Consider Base plate to distributor body to pedestal mount to engine block.
This has solved more than one (non-temperature related) misfire problem.Phil
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 14, 2024, at 6:36?PM, David Gott via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:



?Hi Andrew,
I?ve had 3 different pertonix all not work right. ?Every time I went back to points, it ran great. ?I?m currently running points with a Bosch Blue epoxy filled coil.?
I have also picked up a FAST optical ignition system to start running if/when points start getting unreliable. ?I?ve seen a certain fast 250 running that setup, and I expect it billet proof pending any excess oil flying around (what, oil on a triumph? ?LOL)
Your failure is exactly what I found from pertronix even though they say it ?either works or it doesn?t? but that was not my experience.
Hope that helps!
Dave Gott


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, August 14, 2024, 4:45 PM, Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

I thought an update might be in order.Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Still not fixed.Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.?
A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm set up per Pertronix.?I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ??Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:



? Hi Mike,? ? ? ? ? The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).?? ? ? ? I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.? ? ? ? The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.? ? ? 2) ? The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.?? ? ? As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.? ? 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !?? ? 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.?? ? 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.
? ? ?? ? ? ?Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:



?Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure?i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).? If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.link to flow and fuel requirements chart?https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
3. A problem I had with an identical?set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped?well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened?to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
Happy hunting
mike h
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Guys, 
? ? ? ? ? My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft? or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
? ? ? ? ?I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
? ? ? ? After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
? ? ? ?I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

? ? ? ?Any ideas ?? Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you, 
? ? ? Andrew Devenish

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From fubog1 at aol.com  Thu Aug 15 10:09:03 2024
From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:09:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <CAEN1C=TbJ5eLLD=sRsDmmx+=GZaARxVW98KfB=FFgKUk+iSOUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO0FjVYDVsRPsDfizoN3Da-dVTEhOLvc+Vhef+drSyhHE4LXfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <IA0PR10MB689162107A60BE2083262F9387BA2@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <IA0PR10MB6891F1EE5A15EE23AD72BDA687872@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEN1C=TbJ5eLLD=sRsDmmx+=GZaARxVW98KfB=FFgKUk+iSOUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1628133762.8188998.1723738143510@mail.yahoo.com>

 Excellent point Jason, we had that problem with a TR-4 on the dyno a few years ago.
Re distributors in general, I favor optical units strictly for reliability but in reality, conventional points are OK for any of our 4-cylinders up to 8k, it's all about dwell/saturation time.The 45D type Lucas is a good unit to work with, it has an asymmetrical cam for increased dwell, & wide separation between the contacts to prevent x-firing.Of course it has to be setup with whatever curve is needed, & good points & condensers, but all's very reliable & easy to troubleshoot if necessary.
Glen Efinger

    On Thursday, August 15, 2024 at 10:48:28 AM EDT, JS Performance Motoring, LLC via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:   

 Andrew,?? ? ? ? ? One further thought:?If your engine is misfiring when your wideband O2 reads lean, it's quite likely you are seeing a false lean reading due to the unburned oxygen in the exhaust gas stream related to the misfire, and not due to an actual air/fuel mixture issue.

Jason SukeyJS Performance Motoring, LLC
440.984.7720jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
https://www.facebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/


On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:09?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

I thought an update might be in order.Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Still not fixed.Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.?
A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm set up per Pertronix.?I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ??Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com> wrote:



? Hi Mike,? ? ? ? ? The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).?? ? ? ? I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.? ? ? ? The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.? ? ? 2) ? The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.?? ? ? As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.? ? 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !?? ? 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.?? ? 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.
? ? ?? ? ? ?Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?
Thank you,?? ? ? Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com> wrote:



?Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure?i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).? If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.link to flow and fuel requirements chart?https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
3. A problem I had with an identical?set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped?well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened?to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
Happy hunting
mike h
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Guys, 
? ? ? ? ? My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft? or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
? ? ? ? ?I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
? ? ? ? After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
? ? ? ?I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

? ? ? ?Any ideas ?? Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you, 
? ? ? Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From gt6racer at msn.com  Thu Aug 15 10:30:45 2024
From: gt6racer at msn.com (Andrew Devenish)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:30:45 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
Message-ID: <IA0PR10MB6891E781D43B1574D9CE702587802@IA0PR10MB6891.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

?
?Thanks for all the thoughts.
It seems we have a common theme that there can be some issues with Pertronix parts.
I think a return to basics might be helpful and so I am going to throw in the points and std coil to see if it fixes it. I?m just running around the yard to test and race conditions are a different case, but if it improves at least I know I am on the right path. Assuming it does then on to selecting a replacement system. On my GT6 I had great luck with an optical pickup and Crane gold coil, but I think those parts are long gone.
Jason, great point on the O2 reading, and obvious now I think about it ! I was suspecting carb issues and so jumped to lean is not enough fuel !
One day I should write a book about this little adventure as I have had some weird things going on, like chasing timing that would become retarded by 15 degrees after each run.. Luckily I?m retired and no critical goals with the car, and so if it doesn?t go right I can drop it and come back another day.
I will keep you posted..

Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:38?AM, JS Performance Motoring, LLC <jason at jsperformancemotoring.com> wrote:

?
Andrew,
          One further thought:
If your engine is misfiring when your wideband O2 reads lean, it's quite likely you are seeing a false lean reading due to the unburned oxygen in the exhaust gas stream related to the misfire, and not due to an actual air/fuel mixture issue.


Jason Sukey
JS Performance Motoring, LLC
440.984.7720
jason at jsperformancemotoring.com<mailto:jason at jsperformancemotoring.com>
https://www.facebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/


On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:09?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
I thought an update might be in order.
Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.
I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don?t think it was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.
Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Still not fixed.
Could not find any vacuum leak. I?ve had the manifolds off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.

A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel issue. As I can?t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm set up per Pertronix.
 I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.
As I?m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ?
Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.

Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10?PM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer at msn.com<mailto:gt6racer at msn.com>> wrote:

? Hi Mike,
          The first question is a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low).
        I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I?m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn?t ?.
        The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a few ?laps?.
      2)   The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.
      As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
    3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can?t be sure if it?s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this ?lean? condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I?ve been thinking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (which I can?t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that !
    4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows up only when hot.
    5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttles open.


       Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn?t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutter?

Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51?PM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer at gmail.com<mailto:ofracer at gmail.com>> wrote:

?
Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?

2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).  If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.
link to flow and fuel requirements chart https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf

3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking down and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.
<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>

4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a gap.

5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?

Happy hunting

mike h

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03?PM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
Guys,
          My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I?ve chased all the things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft  or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I?m running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
         I?ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
        After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
       I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but they do still get hot.

       Any ideas ?  Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !


Thank you,
      Andrew Devenish

Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>

http://www.fot-racing.com<http://www.fot-racing.com/>

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From 4msonset at gmail.com  Thu Aug 15 11:24:20 2024
From: 4msonset at gmail.com (J Wagner)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:24:20 -0700
Subject: [Fot] Fuel issue
In-Reply-To: <1614946039.8143889.1723732016484@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1614946039.8143889.1723732016484@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AD04803D-521C-4011-ADE8-DE3D7CFAD66F@gmail.com>

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From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com  Thu Aug 15 13:13:11 2024
From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:13:11 +0000
Subject: [Fot] Grill badge question?
Message-ID: <BN7PR15MB22439AA58B2390B5DFC26227E1802@BN7PR15MB2243.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>

Someone recently asked about a run of grill badges that one FOT put together a long time ago and whether they might still be available.  Was it Chris Bock that did these?  Whatever, I have two of them excess to my needs.  One is as pictured, the other one a bit less cherry.

If you're interested, let me know.

Scott (B.)
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From tony at tonydrews.com  Thu Aug 15 17:44:13 2024
From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 18:44:13 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
Message-ID: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>

At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then the 
resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something happened 
that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift into all of 
the other gears just fine.? Didn't feel like a internal gearbox issue (I 
certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe goodies in there).? 
I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix that.? It does still 
have the overdrive switches in the top of it even though I'm no longer 
running the OD.

So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and see 
what's going on.? I probably have a spare from an unknown quantity 
transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the existing one 
if possible.? For those who have done it, how fiddly of a job is it to 
take that stuff apart?? Any ideas what would keep it from shifting to 
3rd?? I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 shift rail since my 
rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time to look into it at the 
time).

Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.

In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race at 
Grattan coming.? Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage 
Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg

All the best, Tony Drews



From vfracing at aol.com  Thu Aug 15 19:54:49 2024
From: vfracing at aol.com (Philip Gott)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 21:54:49 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
In-Reply-To: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
References: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
Message-ID: <23FE7B4B-B715-4F31-8180-7CE96C99F400@aol.com>

Tony;
Dave and I took a cover apart last winter. The force required to move the shifter against the detents had declined over time and contributed to the gearbox popping out of 3rd.  New springs and balls from Moss and a luggage scale enabled us to re assemble the cover and set the detents properly. A fairly easy but fussy job.
I know that does not completely answer your question, but it is a part of the job that you should do upon re assembly and it is not hard.
Phil Gott
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:54?PM, Tony Drews via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> ?At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then the resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something happened that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift into all of the other gears just fine.  Didn't feel like a internal gearbox issue (I certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe goodies in there).  I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix that.  It does still have the overdrive switches in the top of it even though I'm no longer running the OD.
> 
> So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and see what's going on.  I probably have a spare from an unknown quantity transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the existing one if possible.  For those who have done it, how fiddly of a job is it to take that stuff apart?  Any ideas what would keep it from shifting to 3rd?  I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 shift rail since my rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time to look into it at the time).
> 
> Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.
> 
> In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race at Grattan coming.  Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg
> 
> All the best, Tony Drews
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vfracing at aol.com
> 
> 


From yellow04 at tr4racer.com  Fri Aug 16 04:19:22 2024
From: yellow04 at tr4racer.com (yellow04)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:19:22 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
In-Reply-To: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
References: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
Message-ID: <8a5fe023dd40e1d176c6020993a54069@tr4racer.com>

Tony,

I have been into many top covers, they really only have one fiddly bit, 
the interlock. Consists of two balls and one dowel. You need to 
reassemble in the right order to get it back together, but once you have 
done that once it's pretty easy. You can see the cavity on the outer 
rails (that's the reverse rail and the 1st/2nd rail) where the balls 
live, when everything is cleaned up and ready to go back together I 
apply a dab of grease to the cavity with a long screwdriver, hold the 
top cover on its side and roll the ball down the bore until it drops in 
the cavity. Using the long screwdriver you press the ball home in the 
grease/cavity, then slide the rail home assembling the shifter fork and 
spacer as you offer it home. Then repeat with the other outer rail. 
Finally, the center rail (for 3/4) has a drilling for the dowel pin. 
Grease it up, slide the pin into the rail, and install. The outer forks 
must be in the neutral position to get it to slide home. The Buckeye 
Triumph writeup on gearbox overhaul includes the top cover, worthy of a 
quick read before jumping in for sure.

The other tough part is getting the three tiny square headed tapered 
screws out of the shifter fork/rail, after too many years I finally 
broke down and bought a proper 8 point socket, made life much easier on 
that front. Be forewarned, a failure point on these gearboxes after 
overhauling a top cover is those tapered screws do tend to back out and 
fall into the soup, I highly recommend drilling the screw head for 
safety wire, and drilling the adjacent web on each fork to anchor the 
safety wire. I lost one on track in the TR250, I got lucky and it 
dropped down to the bottom of the gearbox without fouling any gears and 
I simply retrieved it with a magnet, reinstalled, and was back in 
business. On the race car, it was slightly inconvenient and caused a DNF 
for that session, in a street car it is a huge pain in the ass because 
you are pulling the interior to get the top cover off!

The only other thing that I can think of that might trip you up is if 
you have a top cover from a later TR6 that has never been apart, in a 
cost savings measure the Triumph decided they didn't need to supply 
threaded screwcap access to the fork detent spring and plungers, they 
simply used press in plugs. Not at all difficult to remove the press in 
plugs, but you will need to tap the bores you pulled the press in plugs 
from and source the screwcaps from an earlier gearbox to reassemble.

As to the possibility of your top cover causing the issue of not being 
able to engage third, if the tapered screw is tight so the fork is 
properly fixed to the rail, and the shifter feels OK with rowing through 
the gears with the top cover removed, the only think I can think of 
would be a bent shifter fork. I can't tell if a fork is bent by looking 
at it, the only telltale is the fingers that slide into the shifter hub 
will be worn.

Feel free to give me a jingle is you have questions.

Cheers

Henry Frye

On 2024-08-15 19:44, Tony Drews via Fot wrote:
> At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then
> the resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something
> happened that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift
> into all of the other gears just fine.? Didn't feel like a internal
> gearbox issue (I certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe
> goodies in there).? I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix
> that.? It does still have the overdrive switches in the top of it even
> though I'm no longer running the OD.
> 
> So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and see
> what's going on.? I probably have a spare from an unknown quantity
> transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the existing one
> if possible.? For those who have done it, how fiddly of a job is it to
> take that stuff apart?? Any ideas what would keep it from shifting to
> 3rd?? I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 shift rail since
> my rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time to look into it at
> the time).
> 
> Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.
> 
> In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race
> at Grattan coming.? Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage
> Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg
> 
> All the best, Tony Drews

From jerryvvtr4a at gmail.com  Fri Aug 16 05:08:31 2024
From: jerryvvtr4a at gmail.com (Gerald Van Vlack)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 11:08:31 +0000
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
In-Reply-To: <23FE7B4B-B715-4F31-8180-7CE96C99F400@aol.com>
References: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
 <23FE7B4B-B715-4F31-8180-7CE96C99F400@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MW4PR14MB458437BA43147785A6506CB0F6812@MW4PR14MB4584.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Tony, Phil and Amici Triumph,

I add that the tapered square set screws that position and hold the shift forks are prone to snap when trying to remove.  I've found that using an 8-point socket, ( it's 5/16 ") helps avoid snaping the set screw. I've also used an impact with good success in removing them. Snapping one leads to all kinds of frustration, #!&%* words and more.
What's important is to not use any extension and maintain a straight approach.

JVV

________________________________
From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Philip Gott via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2024 9:54 PM
To: Tony Drews <tony at tonydrews.com>
Cc: Amici Triumphi <fot at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)

Tony;
Dave and I took a cover apart last winter. The force required to move the shifter against the detents had declined over time and contributed to the gearbox popping out of 3rd.  New springs and balls from Moss and a luggage scale enabled us to re assemble the cover and set the detents properly. A fairly easy but fussy job.
I know that does not completely answer your question, but it is a part of the job that you should do upon re assembly and it is not hard.
Phil Gott
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:54?PM, Tony Drews via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> ?At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then the resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something happened that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift into all of the other gears just fine.  Didn't feel like a internal gearbox issue (I certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe goodies in there).  I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix that.  It does still have the overdrive switches in the top of it even though I'm no longer running the OD.
>
> So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and see what's going on.  I probably have a spare from an unknown quantity transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the existing one if possible.  For those who have done it, how fiddly of a job is it to take that stuff apart?  Any ideas what would keep it from shifting to 3rd?  I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 shift rail since my rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time to look into it at the time).
>
> Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.
>
> In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race at Grattan coming.  Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg
>
> All the best, Tony Drews
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vfracing at aol.com
>
>

_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From fubog1 at aol.com  Fri Aug 16 09:45:58 2024
From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 15:45:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
In-Reply-To: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
References: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
Message-ID: <440852281.8621489.1723823158541@mail.yahoo.com>

 Tony it's a routine job, there isn't much to it except that it can be a little fiddly, instructions already posted, don't forget the 3 little O-rings for the selector shafts...
Glen Efinger

    On Thursday, August 15, 2024 at 08:00:31 PM EDT, Tony Drews via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:   

 At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then the 
resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something happened 
that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift into all of 
the other gears just fine.? Didn't feel like a internal gearbox issue (I 
certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe goodies in there).? 
I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix that.? It does still 
have the overdrive switches in the top of it even though I'm no longer 
running the OD.

So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and see 
what's going on.? I probably have a spare from an unknown quantity 
transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the existing one 
if possible.? For those who have done it, how fiddly of a job is it to 
take that stuff apart?? Any ideas what would keep it from shifting to 
3rd?? I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 shift rail since my 
rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time to look into it at the 
time).

Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.

In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race at 
Grattan coming.? Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage 
Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg

All the best, Tony Drews


_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/fubog1 at aol.com


  
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From afterapex at gmail.com  Fri Aug 16 12:00:46 2024
From: afterapex at gmail.com (greg powell)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 11:00:46 -0700
Subject: [Fot] New member
Message-ID: <4314B868-E6F8-4A3F-B0D2-AE8A4BBD336A@gmail.com>

Restoring a TR4 race car to race in NorCal.  

From tony at tonydrews.com  Fri Aug 16 15:32:21 2024
From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:32:21 -0500
Subject: [Fot] Grattan videos from last weekend
Message-ID: <2069b400-203c-4410-b5d5-efdb5300a892@tonydrews.com>

For those who are interested in these, here are videos from Grattan last 
weekend:
Genius Garage Invitational - put on to showcase our stuff to Casey 
Putsch's audience
https://youtu.be/_LWlZIFA_gg
Related, Casey the Car Guy's video from this race (interview with some 
drivers including me after the race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtlNrBJCvw0&t=2s
Saturday AM Heat race:
Good battle at the beginning, kind of eases, but Marty's 3 wheeled car 
in stuck in the toilet bowl tightens the field
https://youtu.be/IwJn2mSTu20
Saturday PM Sprint race:
Pretty epic battle with Jim Donato
https://youtu.be/CMOi2b91ZCc
Sunday Feature:
Battle with Jim Donato continues.? I lose 3rd gear a couple of laps from 
the end but soldier on and we still have a tight finish.
https://youtu.be/MT1OGgZmSFY

Regards, Tony Drews



From afterapex at gmail.com  Sat Aug 17 09:43:08 2024
From: afterapex at gmail.com (greg powell)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 08:43:08 -0700
Subject: [Fot] New member
In-Reply-To: <4314B868-E6F8-4A3F-B0D2-AE8A4BBD336A@gmail.com>
References: <4314B868-E6F8-4A3F-B0D2-AE8A4BBD336A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <24257159-C52F-441E-9541-83DFF3978FF9@gmail.com>

Sorry guys- I left off the full details- Brian Ray of Northern California is restoring the car.  
I met him at the Monterey Historics while racing my Morgan +4 (ex Pat Starr).  

Happy racing!
Greg Powell
1958 Morgan +4

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2024, at 11:00?AM, greg powell <afterapex at gmail.com> wrote:

?Restoring a TR4 race car to race in NorCal.  

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Aug 17 10:26:45 2024
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 10:26:45 -0600
Subject: [Fot] New member
In-Reply-To: <4314B868-E6F8-4A3F-B0D2-AE8A4BBD336A@gmail.com>
References: <4314B868-E6F8-4A3F-B0D2-AE8A4BBD336A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7ce96ab-8305-4f28-b2ba-1f8622e6a081@bradakis.com>

On 8/16/24 12:00 PM, greg powell via Fot wrote:
> Restoring a TR4 race car to race in NorCal.

Okay, he is on the list.

mjb.



From mmoore at mtmcpafirm.com  Sat Aug 17 11:41:44 2024
From: mmoore at mtmcpafirm.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:41:44 +0000
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
In-Reply-To: <8a5fe023dd40e1d176c6020993a54069@tr4racer.com>
References: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
 <8a5fe023dd40e1d176c6020993a54069@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <CH2PR04MB6856BB3E46B8A3265E8601D9B4822@CH2PR04MB6856.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Tony I had the same problem at the track, removed top cover and one of the screws came out, and luckily it went to bottom and I was able to get it with a magnet.

Thanks
Mike

Michael T. Moore, CPA
3255 West 26th Street
Erie, PA 16506

Phone:? 814-616-8652? ext 100
Fax:??????? 888-865-5279
Email:??? mmoore at mtmcpafirm.com

This electronic mail message contains confidential and legally privileged information intended only for the use of the recipient. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this message is strictly prohibited and is hereby instructed to notify the sender immediately by return email and destroy this copy of this message.



-----Original Message-----
From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of yellow04 via Fot
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2024 6:19 AM
To: Tony Drews <tony at tonydrews.com>
Cc: Amici Triumphi <fot at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)

Tony,

I have been into many top covers, they really only have one fiddly bit, the interlock. Consists of two balls and one dowel. You need to reassemble in the right order to get it back together, but once you have done that once it's pretty easy. You can see the cavity on the outer rails (that's the reverse rail and the 1st/2nd rail) where the balls live, when everything is cleaned up and ready to go back together I apply a dab of grease to the cavity with a long screwdriver, hold the top cover on its side and roll the ball down the bore until it drops in the cavity. Using the long screwdriver you press the ball home in the grease/cavity, then slide the rail home assembling the shifter fork and spacer as you offer it home. Then repeat with the other outer rail. 
Finally, the center rail (for 3/4) has a drilling for the dowel pin. 
Grease it up, slide the pin into the rail, and install. The outer forks must be in the neutral position to get it to slide home. The Buckeye Triumph writeup on gearbox overhaul includes the top cover, worthy of a quick read before jumping in for sure.

The other tough part is getting the three tiny square headed tapered screws out of the shifter fork/rail, after too many years I finally broke down and bought a proper 8 point socket, made life much easier on that front. Be forewarned, a failure point on these gearboxes after overhauling a top cover is those tapered screws do tend to back out and fall into the soup, I highly recommend drilling the screw head for safety wire, and drilling the adjacent web on each fork to anchor the safety wire. I lost one on track in the TR250, I got lucky and it dropped down to the bottom of the gearbox without fouling any gears and I simply retrieved it with a magnet, reinstalled, and was back in business. On the race car, it was slightly inconvenient and caused a DNF for that session, in a street car it is a huge pain in the ass because you are pulling the interior to get the top cover off!

The only other thing that I can think of that might trip you up is if you have a top cover from a later TR6 that has never been apart, in a cost savings measure the Triumph decided they didn't need to supply threaded screwcap access to the fork detent spring and plungers, they simply used press in plugs. Not at all difficult to remove the press in plugs, but you will need to tap the bores you pulled the press in plugs from and source the screwcaps from an earlier gearbox to reassemble.

As to the possibility of your top cover causing the issue of not being able to engage third, if the tapered screw is tight so the fork is properly fixed to the rail, and the shifter feels OK with rowing through the gears with the top cover removed, the only think I can think of would be a bent shifter fork. I can't tell if a fork is bent by looking at it, the only telltale is the fingers that slide into the shifter hub will be worn.

Feel free to give me a jingle is you have questions.

Cheers

Henry Frye

On 2024-08-15 19:44, Tony Drews via Fot wrote:
> At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then 
> the resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something 
> happened that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift 
> into all of the other gears just fine.? Didn't feel like a internal 
> gearbox issue (I certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe 
> goodies in there).? I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix 
> that.? It does still have the overdrive switches in the top of it even 
> though I'm no longer running the OD.
> 
> So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and see 
> what's going on.? I probably have a spare from an unknown quantity 
> transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the existing one 
> if possible.? For those who have done it, how fiddly of a job is it to 
> take that stuff apart?? Any ideas what would keep it from shifting to 
> 3rd?? I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 shift rail since 
> my rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time to look into it at 
> the time).
> 
> Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.
> 
> In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race 
> at Grattan coming.? Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage
> Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg
> 
> All the best, Tony Drews
_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/mmoore at mtmcpafirm.com



From tony at tonydrews.com  Sat Aug 17 16:37:04 2024
From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:37:04 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
In-Reply-To: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
References: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
Message-ID: <1da76d97-7e4f-4007-8da1-78f17055c163@tonydrews.com>

Just a quick update.? Not fixed yet, but the problem IS in the top cover 
(thank goodness).? I can shirt it into 3rd easily with the cover off, 
and on the workbench? the 3/4 rail will only let me move to 4th 
position, not 3rd position.? The covers over the detent spring are not 
the screw type, so will be a PITA to take apart I suspect.

Thanks for all the tips, and thanks Henry for pointing me to the Buckeye 
Triumphs gearbox stuff.? I'll be digging into that next trying to figure 
out how to take it apart.? I did take out the overdrive switches, they 
were not the hangup.

Cheers, Tony

On 8/15/2024 6:44 PM, Tony Drews via Fot wrote:
> At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then 
> the resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something 
> happened that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift 
> into all of the other gears just fine.? Didn't feel like a internal 
> gearbox issue (I certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe 
> goodies in there).? I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix 
> that.? It does still have the overdrive switches in the top of it even 
> though I'm no longer running the OD.
>
> So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and see 
> what's going on.? I probably have a spare from an unknown quantity 
> transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the existing one 
> if possible.? For those who have done it, how fiddly of a job is it to 
> take that stuff apart?? Any ideas what would keep it from shifting to 
> 3rd?? I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 shift rail since 
> my rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time to look into it at 
> the time).
>
> Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.
>
> In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race 
> at Grattan coming.? Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage 
> Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg
>
> All the best, Tony Drews
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony at tonydrews.com
>
>


From tony at tonydrews.com  Sat Aug 17 17:47:43 2024
From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 18:47:43 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR-4/6 trans top cover advice (won't go into 3rd gear)
In-Reply-To: <1da76d97-7e4f-4007-8da1-78f17055c163@tonydrews.com>
References: <aaccf3b7-5038-41d4-b3a0-f7c8b15a37a7@tonydrews.com>
 <1da76d97-7e4f-4007-8da1-78f17055c163@tonydrews.com>
Message-ID: <131839fa-a12c-4c35-8e5c-d16fc9b8293d@tonydrews.com>

Another quick update - got all of the detent balls / springs / etc. out, 
that's not where the problem lies.? It must be in the interlock 
mechanism, that's all that's left in the cover to interfere with 
movement.? From the exploded diagram, that interlock looks dead simple, 
I'm unclear how it could mess me up.

I'm waiting on some 8 point sockets to arrive to get it fully apart, I 
won't know more until a few days from now.

I've got a TR-3 cover that I can cannibalize some of the screw thread 
plugs (for the detents) from, although the plugs would probably still 
work but I had to drill holes in them to remove them of course.? If they 
are supposed to be oil tight, the old plugs won't be anymore.

- Tony

On 8/17/2024 5:37 PM, Tony Drews via Fot wrote:
> Just a quick update.? Not fixed yet, but the problem IS in the top 
> cover (thank goodness).? I can shirt it into 3rd easily with the cover 
> off, and on the workbench? the 3/4 rail will only let me move to 4th 
> position, not 3rd position.? The covers over the detent spring are not 
> the screw type, so will be a PITA to take apart I suspect.
>
> Thanks for all the tips, and thanks Henry for pointing me to the 
> Buckeye Triumphs gearbox stuff.? I'll be digging into that next trying 
> to figure out how to take it apart.? I did take out the overdrive 
> switches, they were not the hangup.
>
> Cheers, Tony
>
> On 8/15/2024 6:44 PM, Tony Drews via Fot wrote:
>> At my last race, I felt entry to 3rd gear have some resistance, then 
>> the resistance went away, but near the end of the weekend something 
>> happened that prevents me from shifting into 3rd gear. I can shift 
>> into all of the other gears just fine.? Didn't feel like a internal 
>> gearbox issue (I certainly hope not, I just replaced all the quaiffe 
>> goodies in there).? I've never taken the top cover apart / had to fix 
>> that.? It does still have the overdrive switches in the top of it 
>> even though I'm no longer running the OD.
>>
>> So... I'm planning to remove the tranny top cover this weekend and 
>> see what's going on.? I probably have a spare from an unknown 
>> quantity transmission from my Dad's stash, but I'd like to fix the 
>> existing one if possible.? For those who have done it, how fiddly of 
>> a job is it to take that stuff apart?? Any ideas what would keep it 
>> from shifting to 3rd?? I have noticed increased resistance on the 3/4 
>> shift rail since my rebuild earlier this year (but didn't have time 
>> to look into it at the time).
>>
>> Looking for words of wisdom from those who have been there / done that.
>>
>> In other news I have some pretty epic videos from last weekend's race 
>> at Grattan coming.? Here's a appetizer from the "Genius Garage 
>> Invitational": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LWlZIFA_gg
>>
>> All the best, Tony Drews
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony at tonydrews.com
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony at tonydrews.com
>
>


From mecook at mindspring.com  Sun Aug 18 20:05:47 2024
From: mecook at mindspring.com (Mark Cook)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 22:05:47 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard w
 Slave Cylinder?
Message-ID: <000301daf1dc$4f890590$ee9b10b0$@mindspring.com>

So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to decide on whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover and four paddle clutch disc. 

Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to the hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar enough to know if a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard release bearing.  Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem more sensitive to initial set up as well.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark Cook





From charly at mitchelplumbing.com  Sun Aug 18 20:33:08 2024
From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:33:08 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard
 wSlave Cylinder?
Message-ID: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>

Mark, I have always run the 'stock' style T.O. bearing.  I've run several different clutches, from Laycock to Tilton, and have always had good luck with it.
I've known several TR racers who have used the 'hydraulic' type  mechanism and have always had problems at the track and have been difficult if not impossible to fix.
My vote is the stock linkage and a Tilton clutch, 
BTW, car is still for sale.
Charly Mitchel
TR6 #44

On Sun 18/08/24  7:05 PM , Mark Cook via Fot fot at autox.team.net sent:
> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic
> release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to decide on
> whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave
> cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the
> Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover
> and four paddle clutch disc. 
> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to the
> hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar enough to know if
> a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard
> release bearing.  Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem
> more sensitive to initial set up as well.
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark Cook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.
> team.net
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlArchive: http://autox.team.net/archive
> http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ch
> arly at mitchelplumbing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 


From moosehd2 at pacbell.net  Sun Aug 18 22:58:37 2024
From: moosehd2 at pacbell.net (Bert Brown)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 04:58:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard
 wSlave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
References: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
Message-ID: <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>

 I was just at the Monterey Historics this weekend hanging out with 2 racer friends and one of their friends pops into our pit space with the news that his internal hydraulic release bearing leaked in the Friday session and the clutch was inoperable.? He had a Cobra and pulling a trans in one of those cars is an absolute bitch!? He wanted to know what our experience was with these bearings and if we had a replacement.? Everyone said they have had many problems with hydraulic leaks with these internal release bearings and "no", they didn't have a spare.??
Everyone's vote at our pit was to use the external linkage and slave cylinder.? When I used to go to the track with my car I always carried spare hydraulics and the external cylinder on my Spit was a snap to change.
By the way the Cobra guy couldn't find a replacement at the track and loaded his car on his trailer and missed his race.? All because of a damn internal hydraulic release bearing that he never thought he would have to replace!? Racing is fun!
Bert Brownex GP Spitfire
    On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 07:59:48 PM PDT, Charly via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 Mark, I have always run the 'stock' style T.O. bearing.? I've run several different clutches, from Laycock to Tilton, and have always had good luck with it.
I've known several TR racers who have used the 'hydraulic' type? mechanism and have always had problems at the track and have been difficult if not impossible to fix.
My vote is the stock linkage and a Tilton clutch, 
BTW, car is still for sale.
Charly Mitchel
TR6 #44

On Sun 18/08/24? 7:05 PM , Mark Cook via Fot fot at autox.team.net sent:
> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic
> release bearing, which is leaking.? While there, trying to decide on
> whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave
> cylinder.? For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the
> Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover
> and four paddle clutch disc. 
> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to the
> hydraulic release bearing.? At the same time not familiar enough to know if
> a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard
> release bearing.? Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem
> more sensitive to initial set up as well.
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark Cook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.
> team.net
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlArchive: http://autox.team.net/archive
> http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ch
> arly at mitchelplumbing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
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http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From robertlangtr6 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 19 05:50:38 2024
From: robertlangtr6 at yahoo.com (Robert Lang)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 11:50:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard w
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <000301daf1dc$4f890590$ee9b10b0$@mindspring.com>
References: <000301daf1dc$4f890590$ee9b10b0$@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <1882439619.9381878.1724068238687@mail.yahoo.com>

 Hi,
As others have already mentioned, the annular throw out bearing setup can have issues and resolving them at the track is a PITA. For that reason, I've stayed with the stock setup and external hydraulics. I just do a few things to make sure the weak spot for the stock setup won't fail - namely, drill and pin the clutch fork to the cross shaft. Use a 3/16 or 1/4 inch roll pin. With that setup, you can easily remove the taper pin and the roll pin to get the cross shaft out. You want this because there's a good chance at some point you'll need to access the front layshaft cover for leaks or layshaft replacement. But, I've been using this setup for years with excellent reliability and EASY maintenance on the track or on the road.
This also assumes a stock transmission... or at the very least a stock-derived bell housing. If you have Toyota or other, you may have different options.
The key for the annular bearings is to get the clearances set so you can over-operate the hydraulic bearing and it's probably best to do that on the bench and then document what you did for future reference.
Regards,Bob Lang



    On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 10:15:41 PM EDT, Mark Cook via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic release bearing, which is leaking.? While there, trying to decide on whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave cylinder.? For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover and four paddle clutch disc. 

Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to the hydraulic release bearing.? At the same time not familiar enough to know if a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard release bearing.? Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem more sensitive to initial set up as well.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark Cook




_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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From ofracer at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 06:01:23 2024
From: ofracer at gmail.com (Mike Harmuth)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 08:01:23 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard
 wSlave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
 <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAO0FjVbpn+naQtRuixG_CQ-c__zm0iE6cP0e5FRNGTJgU90bmA@mail.gmail.com>

Sebring 2020, internal throwout bearing leaking.

[image: P1015303.JPG]

On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 1:14?AM Bert Brown via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> I was just at the Monterey Historics this weekend hanging out with 2 racer
> friends and one of their friends pops into our pit space with the news that
> his internal hydraulic release bearing leaked in the Friday session and the
> clutch was inoperable.  He had a Cobra and pulling a trans in one of those
> cars is an absolute bitch!  He wanted to know what our experience was with
> these bearings and if we had a replacement.  Everyone said they have had
> many problems with hydraulic leaks with these internal release bearings and
> "no", they didn't have a spare.
>
> Everyone's vote at our pit was to use the external linkage and slave
> cylinder.  When I used to go to the track with my car I always carried
> spare hydraulics and the external cylinder on my Spit was a snap to change.
>
> By the way the Cobra guy couldn't find a replacement at the track and
> loaded his car on his trailer and missed his race.  All because of a damn
> internal hydraulic release bearing that he never thought he would have to
> replace!  Racing is fun!
>
> Bert Brown
> ex GP Spitfire
>
> On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 07:59:48 PM PDT, Charly via Fot <
> fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>
> Mark, I have always run the 'stock' style T.O. bearing.  I've run several
> different clutches, from Laycock to Tilton, and have always had good luck
> with it.
> I've known several TR racers who have used the 'hydraulic' type  mechanism
> and have always had problems at the track and have been difficult if not
> impossible to fix.
> My vote is the stock linkage and a Tilton clutch,
> BTW, car is still for sale.
> Charly Mitchel
> TR6 #44
>
> On Sun 18/08/24  7:05 PM , Mark Cook via Fot fot at autox.team.net sent:
> > So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic
> > release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to decide on
> > whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave
> > cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the
> > Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover
> > and four paddle clutch disc.
> > Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to
> the
> > hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar enough to know
> if
> > a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard
> > release bearing.  Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem
> > more sensitive to initial set up as well.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mark Cook
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > fot at autox.
> > team.net
> > http://www.fot-racing.com
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlArchive:
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> > http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ch
> > arly at mitchelplumbing.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/moosehd2 at pacbell.net
>
>
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>
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From solarant at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 19 07:03:36 2024
From: solarant at hotmail.com (Anthony Parker)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 13:03:36 +0000
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Annular or Standard
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <CAO0FjVbpn+naQtRuixG_CQ-c__zm0iE6cP0e5FRNGTJgU90bmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
 <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO0FjVbpn+naQtRuixG_CQ-c__zm0iE6cP0e5FRNGTJgU90bmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN6PR04MB5472BC7068D4B7876DF682D7D78C2@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

I'm amazed to hear all of these stories of bad experiences.

Many production cars and race cars have used these for years.  Saab used them for ~40 years.
Many aftermarket manufacturers make them.  Tilton, QuarterMaster, PowerTrain, ...

Are people using poor quality units, or are they being installed incorrectly?

Remember that aftermarket/race clutches often require 50-100% more force to disengage than the stock clutch, especially the smaller units.

Has anyone observed or measured the twist and bend on the stock cross shaft when paired with a race clutch?
I guess if your bushings are worn enough, then the assembly can tolerate this distortion.





________________________________
From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Mike Harmuth via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2024 8:01 AM
To: Bert Brown <moosehd2 at pacbell.net>
Cc: Friends of Triumph Group Email <fot at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard wSlave Cylinder?

Sebring 2020, internal throwout bearing leaking.

[P1015303.JPG]

On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 1:14?AM Bert Brown via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
I was just at the Monterey Historics this weekend hanging out with 2 racer friends and one of their friends pops into our pit space with the news that his internal hydraulic release bearing leaked in the Friday session and the clutch was inoperable.  He had a Cobra and pulling a trans in one of those cars is an absolute bitch!  He wanted to know what our experience was with these bearings and if we had a replacement.  Everyone said they have had many problems with hydraulic leaks with these internal release bearings and "no", they didn't have a spare.

Everyone's vote at our pit was to use the external linkage and slave cylinder.  When I used to go to the track with my car I always carried spare hydraulics and the external cylinder on my Spit was a snap to change.

By the way the Cobra guy couldn't find a replacement at the track and loaded his car on his trailer and missed his race.  All because of a damn internal hydraulic release bearing that he never thought he would have to replace!  Racing is fun!

Bert Brown
ex GP Spitfire

On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 07:59:48 PM PDT, Charly via Fot <fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:


Mark, I have always run the 'stock' style T.O. bearing.  I've run several different clutches, from Laycock to Tilton, and have always had good luck with it.
I've known several TR racers who have used the 'hydraulic' type  mechanism and have always had problems at the track and have been difficult if not impossible to fix.
My vote is the stock linkage and a Tilton clutch,
BTW, car is still for sale.
Charly Mitchel
TR6 #44

On Sun 18/08/24  7:05 PM , Mark Cook via Fot fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net> sent:
> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic
> release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to decide on
> whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave
> cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the
> Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover
> and four paddle clutch disc.
> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to the
> hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar enough to know if
> a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard
> release bearing.  Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem
> more sensitive to initial set up as well.
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Cook
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.<mailto:fot at autox.>
> team.net<http://team.net>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlArchive: http://autox.team.net/archive
> http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ch
> arly at mitchelplumbing.com<mailto:arly at mitchelplumbing.com>
>
>
>
>

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From yellow04 at tr4racer.com  Mon Aug 19 07:14:33 2024
From: yellow04 at tr4racer.com (yellow04)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 09:14:33 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard w
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <000301daf1dc$4f890590$ee9b10b0$@mindspring.com>
References: <000301daf1dc$4f890590$ee9b10b0$@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <0d70d1280a74a88b13130cc0080d3b89@tr4racer.com>

+1 on keeping the clutch release stuff stock.

I will add if you don't overtighten the hardened taper pin and safety 
wire it, they work fine. Adding an additional bolt or roll pin to keep 
the fork fixed to the cross shaft is the belt and suspenders approach. I 
do that with my street cars where a gearbox pull requires a bunch of 
work removing interior bits, but the race stuff gets pulled often enough 
that I simply put a new tapered pin in every time.

Henry

On 2024-08-18 22:05, Mark Cook via Fot wrote:
> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod
> hydraulic release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to
> decide on whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an
> external slave cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine
> rebuild, going with the Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4"
> lightweight flywheel, cover and four paddle clutch disc.
> 
> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related
> to the hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar
> enough to know if a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any
> worse than a standard release bearing.  Everything I have read makes
> the hydraulic bearing seem more sensitive to initial set up as well.
> 
> Thoughts?

From robertlangtr6 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 19 07:35:04 2024
From: robertlangtr6 at yahoo.com (Robert Lang)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 13:35:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Annular or Standard
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <SN6PR04MB5472BC7068D4B7876DF682D7D78C2@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
 <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO0FjVbpn+naQtRuixG_CQ-c__zm0iE6cP0e5FRNGTJgU90bmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN6PR04MB5472BC7068D4B7876DF682D7D78C2@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <162822338.9433107.1724074505717@mail.yahoo.com>

 Hi,
I'll jump in again...
Yes, real production cars have been using annular bearings for a long time. No question. Retrofitting these t/o bearings to our cars can have issues.

You don't have to mess up the dimensions very much to wind up with a problem.
There aren't any bolt-in setups that I've had my hands on. I'd be prone to trust the Vitesse setup (Miata gears in a NEW case and bellhousing) as that is a bolt-in. But I haven't had my hands on one, so no data point. As I recall, one of the issues with the aftermarket setups is matching the input shaft housing to the aftermarket part. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if you're not a machinist or you have access to a? really knowlegable machinist, there are ways to screw it up.

Regarding clutches - not everyone runs a racing clutch. I use OEM style clutches because I'm not trying to spin the engine like a rotary etc. And I don't build for 3x OEM power. All this is for reliability vs max performance. Also, even with the stock setup, there are ways to screw it up and folks will blame the parts rather than an improper installation... because you can. For example, I've fixed a lot of TR6 clutch problems just by using the proper alignment bolts - this occurs pretty frequently... probably 30% of the cars that I've worked on. 

So, part of the discussion is related to how you will be using the setup, e.g. "real vintage" or "real racing" and then go from there. Racing philosophy also plays into this. And it is possible to make the stock stuff work well and reliably without a lot of engineering.

Just my "tuppence".
Regards.Bob Lang

    On Monday, August 19, 2024 at 09:14:16 AM EDT, Anthony Parker via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 I'm amazed to hear all of these stories of bad experiences.
Many production cars and race cars have used these for years.? Saab used them for ~40 years.Many aftermarket manufacturers make them.? Tilton, QuarterMaster, PowerTrain, ...
Are people using poor quality units, or are they being installed incorrectly?
Remember that aftermarket/race clutches often require 50-100% more force to disengage than the stock clutch, especially the smaller units.
Has anyone observed or measured the twist and bend on the stock cross shaft when paired with a race clutch?I guess if your bushings are worn enough, then the assembly can tolerate this distortion.




From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Mike Harmuth via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2024 8:01 AM
To: Bert Brown <moosehd2 at pacbell.net>
Cc: Friends of Triumph Group Email <fot at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard wSlave Cylinder??Sebring 2020, internal throwout bearing leaking.


On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 1:14?AM Bert Brown via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

I was just at the Monterey Historics this weekend hanging out with 2 racer friends and one of their friends pops into our pit space with the news that his internal hydraulic release bearing leaked in the Friday session and the clutch was inoperable.? He had a Cobra and pulling a trans in one of those cars is an absolute bitch!? He wanted to know what our experience was with these bearings and if we had a replacement.? Everyone said they have had many problems with hydraulic leaks with these internal release bearings and "no", they didn't have a spare.??
Everyone's vote at our pit was to use the external linkage and slave cylinder.? When I used to go to the track with my car I always carried spare hydraulics and the external cylinder on my Spit was a snap to change.
By the way the Cobra guy couldn't find a replacement at the track and loaded his car on his trailer and missed his race.? All because of a damn internal hydraulic release bearing that he never thought he would have to replace!? Racing is fun!
Bert Brownex GP Spitfire
On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 07:59:48 PM PDT, Charly via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Mark, I have always run the 'stock' style T.O. bearing.? I've run several different clutches, from Laycock to Tilton, and have always had good luck with it.
I've known several TR racers who have used the 'hydraulic' type? mechanism and have always had problems at the track and have been difficult if not impossible to fix.
My vote is the stock linkage and a Tilton clutch, 
BTW, car is still for sale.
Charly Mitchel
TR6 #44

On Sun 18/08/24? 7:05 PM , Mark Cook via Fot fot at autox.team.net sent:
> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic
> release bearing, which is leaking.? While there, trying to decide on
> whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave
> cylinder.? For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the
> Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover
> and four paddle clutch disc. 
> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to the
> hydraulic release bearing.? At the same time not familiar enough to know if
> a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard
> release bearing.? Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem
> more sensitive to initial set up as well.
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark Cook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.
> team.net
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlArchive: http://autox.team.net/archive
> http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ch
> arly at mitchelplumbing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From jason at jsperformancemotoring.com  Mon Aug 19 07:36:22 2024
From: jason at jsperformancemotoring.com (JS Performance Motoring, LLC)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 09:36:22 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard w
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <000301daf1dc$4f890590$ee9b10b0$@mindspring.com>
References: <000301daf1dc$4f890590$ee9b10b0$@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN1C=RRkBbXQBqxny8ebR5AWDmzT3KxEXeY9u+Svcg5WWVk8A@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,
          I've been using the McLeod hydraulic release bearings in TR6
boxes with very good results.

It's a great solution, especially when you are installing a TR6 box into a
Spitfire or GT6, where there is limited clearance for the external clutch
cylinder.

Setup is important for these, not just for distance from bearing face to
pressure plate fingers, but also so that whatever locating method is used
keeps the bearing centered AND flat.  You don't want to side load the
piston, or have it cocked in the bore.  That being said, the setup only
needs done once, unless you change flywheel/clutch setups.

No question, it's a bigger job to replace the seals if they fail.  I try to
keep a seal kit on hand, and if the gearbox or engine is out for some
reason, I go ahead and replace the seals, even if they aren't leaking.

Regular dot3/dot4 fluid is easiest on the seals, and during the off season,
I give the pedal a pump every once in a while to keep all the surfaces wet
with fluid.


Jason Sukey
JS Performance Motoring, LLC
440.984.7720
jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
https://www.facebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/


On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 10:15?PM Mark Cook via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic
> release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to decide on
> whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave
> cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the
> Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover and
> four paddle clutch disc.
>
> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to
> the hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar enough to
> know if a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a
> standard release bearing.  Everything I have read makes the hydraulic
> bearing seem more sensitive to initial set up as well.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Cook
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
>
>
>
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From vintageclassicsus at outlook.com  Mon Aug 19 07:59:08 2024
From: vintageclassicsus at outlook.com (Tony Garmey)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 13:59:08 +0000
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard w
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <0d70d1280a74a88b13130cc0080d3b89@tr4racer.com>
References: <0d70d1280a74a88b13130cc0080d3b89@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <LV3PR07MB10394A2C7F50251C94AEAF429AB8C2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

I machine up a clutch release bobbin to accept a 44 mm release bearing that is suitable for the 71/4 Tilton
Stock hydraulic cylinder.
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 19, 2024, at 6:43?AM, yellow04 via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> ?+1 on keeping the clutch release stuff stock.
>
> I will add if you don't overtighten the hardened taper pin and safety wire it, they work fine. Adding an additional bolt or roll pin to keep the fork fixed to the cross shaft is the belt and suspenders approach. I do that with my street cars where a gearbox pull requires a bunch of work removing interior bits, but the race stuff gets pulled often enough that I simply put a new tapered pin in every time.
>
> Henry
>
>> On 2024-08-18 22:05, Mark Cook via Fot wrote:
>> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod
>> hydraulic release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to
>> decide on whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an
>> external slave cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine
>> rebuild, going with the Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4"
>> lightweight flywheel, cover and four paddle clutch disc.
>> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related
>> to the hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar
>> enough to know if a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any
>> worse than a standard release bearing.  Everything I have read makes
>> the hydraulic bearing seem more sensitive to initial set up as well.
>> Thoughts?
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com/
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vintageclassicsus at outlook.com
>
>

From ponobill at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 08:25:33 2024
From: ponobill at gmail.com (Ponostyle)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 07:25:33 -0700
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Annular or Standard
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <162822338.9433107.1724074505717@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
 <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO0FjVbpn+naQtRuixG_CQ-c__zm0iE6cP0e5FRNGTJgU90bmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN6PR04MB5472BC7068D4B7876DF682D7D78C2@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <162822338.9433107.1724074505717@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F18E5726-E08E-4DAF-B08F-78C6084ABB68@ponostyle.com>

Yes, leaks are feasible, though I never had a problem. The benefits of annular bearings are substantial?self-adjusting, no radial thrust. Properly set up they are a very neat solution. But yes, you take a chance of leaking. 

> On Aug 19, 2024, at 6:35?AM, Robert Lang via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'll jump in again...
> 
> Yes, real production cars have been using annular bearings for a long time. No question. Retrofitting these t/o bearings to our cars can have issues.
> 
> You don't have to mess up the dimensions very much to wind up with a problem.
> 
> There aren't any bolt-in setups that I've had my hands on. I'd be prone to trust the Vitesse setup (Miata gears in a NEW case and bellhousing) as that is a bolt-in. But I haven't had my hands on one, so no data point. As I recall, one of the issues with the aftermarket setups is matching the input shaft housing to the aftermarket part. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if you're not a machinist or you have access to a  really knowlegable machinist, there are ways to screw it up.
> 
> Regarding clutches - not everyone runs a racing clutch. I use OEM style clutches because I'm not trying to spin the engine like a rotary etc. And I don't build for 3x OEM power. All this is for reliability vs max performance. Also, even with the stock setup, there are ways to screw it up and folks will blame the parts rather than an improper installation... because you can. For example, I've fixed a lot of TR6 clutch problems just by using the proper alignment bolts - this occurs pretty frequently... probably 30% of the cars that I've worked on.
> 
> So, part of the discussion is related to how you will be using the setup, e.g. "real vintage" or "real racing" and then go from there. Racing philosophy also plays into this. And it is possible to make the stock stuff work well and reliably without a lot of engineering.
> 
> Just my "tuppence".
> 
> Regards.
> Bob Lang
> 
> On Monday, August 19, 2024 at 09:14:16 AM EDT, Anthony Parker via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm amazed to hear all of these stories of bad experiences.
> 
> Many production cars and race cars have used these for years.  Saab used them for ~40 years.
> Many aftermarket manufacturers make them.  Tilton, QuarterMaster, PowerTrain, ...
> 
> Are people using poor quality units, or are they being installed incorrectly?
> 
> Remember that aftermarket/race clutches often require 50-100% more force to disengage than the stock clutch, especially the smaller units.
> 
> Has anyone observed or measured the twist and bend on the stock cross shaft when paired with a race clutch?
> I guess if your bushings are worn enough, then the assembly can tolerate this distortion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Mike Harmuth via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2024 8:01 AM
> To: Bert Brown <moosehd2 at pacbell.net>
> Cc: Friends of Triumph Group Email <fot at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard wSlave Cylinder?
>  
> Sebring 2020, internal throwout bearing leaking.
> 
> <P1015303.JPG>
> 
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 1:14?AM Bert Brown via Fot <fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
> I was just at the Monterey Historics this weekend hanging out with 2 racer friends and one of their friends pops into our pit space with the news that his internal hydraulic release bearing leaked in the Friday session and the clutch was inoperable.  He had a Cobra and pulling a trans in one of those cars is an absolute bitch!  He wanted to know what our experience was with these bearings and if we had a replacement.  Everyone said they have had many problems with hydraulic leaks with these internal release bearings and "no", they didn't have a spare.  
> 
> Everyone's vote at our pit was to use the external linkage and slave cylinder.  When I used to go to the track with my car I always carried spare hydraulics and the external cylinder on my Spit was a snap to change.
> 
> By the way the Cobra guy couldn't find a replacement at the track and loaded his car on his trailer and missed his race.  All because of a damn internal hydraulic release bearing that he never thought he would have to replace!  Racing is fun!
> 
> Bert Brown
> ex GP Spitfire
> 
> On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 07:59:48 PM PDT, Charly via Fot <fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Mark, I have always run the 'stock' style T.O. bearing.  I've run several different clutches, from Laycock to Tilton, and have always had good luck with it.
> I've known several TR racers who have used the 'hydraulic' type  mechanism and have always had problems at the track and have been difficult if not impossible to fix.
> My vote is the stock linkage and a Tilton clutch,
> BTW, car is still for sale.
> Charly Mitchel
> TR6 #44
> 
> On Sun 18/08/24  7:05 PM , Mark Cook via Fot fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net> sent:
> > So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod hydraulic
> > release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to decide on
> > whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an external slave
> > cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine rebuild, going with the
> > Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4" lightweight flywheel, cover
> > and four paddle clutch disc.
> > Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related to the
> > hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar enough to know if
> > a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any worse than a standard
> > release bearing.  Everything I have read makes the hydraulic bearing seem
> > more sensitive to initial set up as well.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mark Cook
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > fot at autox. <mailto:fot at autox.>
> > team.net <http://team.net/>
> > http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlArchive: http://autox.team.net/archive
> > http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ch
> > arly at mitchelplumbing.com <mailto:arly at mitchelplumbing.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>
> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
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> 
> <P1015303.JPG>_______________________________________________
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> 
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From vfracing at aol.com  Mon Aug 19 09:34:31 2024
From: vfracing at aol.com (Philip Gott)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 11:34:31 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard w
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <LV3PR07MB10394A2C7F50251C94AEAF429AB8C2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394A2C7F50251C94AEAF429AB8C2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <326ABAA0-8FC4-4FCA-A608-A6156310461C@aol.com>

Someone mentioned brake fluid for the annular cutch throw out bearings. I had been using DOT 4 which led to the Sebring picture posted earlier by Mike Harmuth. 
The best fluid for these is the Quartermaster Hydraulic Clutch Fluid made especially for these systems. It has much better lubricity than the normal Dot 3 or DoT 4 fluids. DOT 4 is actually much worse lubricity than DOT 3. There are exceptions of course, but the safe ?go to? solution is the Quartermaster fluid.
Since using that we have had no issues ?.  And no black residue in the bottom of the master cylinder reservoir.
Phil Gott

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 19, 2024, at 11:02?AM, Tony Garmey via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> ?I machine up a clutch release bobbin to accept a 44 mm release bearing that is suitable for the 71/4 Tilton
> Stock hydraulic cylinder.
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 19, 2024, at 6:43?AM, yellow04 via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
>> ?+1 on keeping the clutch release stuff stock.
>> 
>> I will add if you don't overtighten the hardened taper pin and safety wire it, they work fine. Adding an additional bolt or roll pin to keep the fork fixed to the cross shaft is the belt and suspenders approach. I do that with my street cars where a gearbox pull requires a bunch of work removing interior bits, but the race stuff gets pulled often enough that I simply put a new tapered pin in every time.
>> 
>> Henry
>> 
>>>> On 2024-08-18 22:05, Mark Cook via Fot wrote:
>>> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod
>>> hydraulic release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to
>>> decide on whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an
>>> external slave cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine
>>> rebuild, going with the Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4"
>>> lightweight flywheel, cover and four paddle clutch disc.
>>> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related
>>> to the hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar
>>> enough to know if a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any
>>> worse than a standard release bearing.  Everything I have read makes
>>> the hydraulic bearing seem more sensitive to initial set up as well.
>>> Thoughts?
>> _______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>> 
>> http://www.fot-racing.com/
>> 
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vintageclassicsus at outlook.com
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vfracing at aol.com
> 
> 


From terrysopher at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 09:40:48 2024
From: terrysopher at gmail.com (Terry Sopher)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 11:40:48 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Hydraulic or Standard w
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <LV3PR07MB10394A2C7F50251C94AEAF429AB8C2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <LV3PR07MB10394A2C7F50251C94AEAF429AB8C2@LV3PR07MB10394.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <50E036D4-E4F1-44CF-813D-DFA1FB20ED3C@gmail.com>

Nice a Group 44mm part!;)

> On Aug 19, 2024, at 10:58, Tony Garmey via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> ?I machine up a clutch release bobbin to accept a 44 mm release bearing that is suitable for the 71/4 Tilton
> Stock hydraulic cylinder.
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 19, 2024, at 6:43?AM, yellow04 via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
>> ?+1 on keeping the clutch release stuff stock.
>> 
>> I will add if you don't overtighten the hardened taper pin and safety wire it, they work fine. Adding an additional bolt or roll pin to keep the fork fixed to the cross shaft is the belt and suspenders approach. I do that with my street cars where a gearbox pull requires a bunch of work removing interior bits, but the race stuff gets pulled often enough that I simply put a new tapered pin in every time.
>> 
>> Henry
>> 
>>>> On 2024-08-18 22:05, Mark Cook via Fot wrote:
>>> So, I one of my TR6s has a close ratio transmission with Mcleod
>>> hydraulic release bearing, which is leaking.  While there, trying to
>>> decide on whether to go back to a stock bearing, yoke etc, with an
>>> external slave cylinder.  For reference, as part of the engine
>>> rebuild, going with the Racetorations Arrow billet crank, 7 1/4"
>>> lightweight flywheel, cover and four paddle clutch disc.
>>> Not keen on having to remove the transmission for seal leaks related
>>> to the hydraulic release bearing.  At the same time not familiar
>>> enough to know if a hydraulic release bearing's failure rate is any
>>> worse than a standard release bearing.  Everything I have read makes
>>> the hydraulic bearing seem more sensitive to initial set up as well.
>>> Thoughts?
>> _______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>> 
>> http://www.fot-racing.com/
>> 
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vintageclassicsus at outlook.com
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/terrysopher at gmail.com
> 
> 

From yellow04 at tr4racer.com  Tue Aug 20 06:57:22 2024
From: yellow04 at tr4racer.com (yellow04)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 08:57:22 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Annular or Standard
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <162822338.9433107.1724074505717@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
 <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO0FjVbpn+naQtRuixG_CQ-c__zm0iE6cP0e5FRNGTJgU90bmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN6PR04MB5472BC7068D4B7876DF682D7D78C2@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <162822338.9433107.1724074505717@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ce910a65435f83ad4aa534b740ea319a@tr4racer.com>

FWIW, Bob and I run similar lap times with our 6 cylinder TR's, 
typically a tad faster than the TR4's, and I too run a stock TR6 
pressure plate. My setup is the widely available steel flywheel and a 
regular AP pressure plate that costs just over 100 bucks from Moss. My 
driven plate is a full metallic paddle disc with no springs. I get 
seasons of use out of a driven plate, and I will swap out the pressure 
plate periodically as they do not last forever. I ran the same with the 
TR4.

I just don't see the need for a racing clutch in vintage, we are making 
sensible power that the stock stuff can handle just fine. And to stay on 
topic, the stock clutch release setup works brilliantly with a stock 
pressure plate!

Maybe if I owned a Tilton setup I would see the light, there certainly 
are benefits to having the mass of your clutch and flywheel closer to 
the rotational center of the engine, but the "KISS" principle works for 
me!

Henry Frye

On 2024-08-19 09:35, Robert Lang via Fot wrote:

> 
> Regarding clutches - not everyone runs a racing clutch. I use OEM
> style clutches because I'm not trying to spin the engine like a rotary
> etc. And I don't build for 3x OEM power. All this is for reliability
> vs max performance.
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From mecook at mindspring.com  Tue Aug 20 07:27:25 2024
From: mecook at mindspring.com (Mark Cook)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 09:27:25 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Annular or Standard
 Slave Cylinder?
In-Reply-To: <ce910a65435f83ad4aa534b740ea319a@tr4racer.com>
References: <62203.1724034788@mitchelplumbing.com>
 <1536652724.7632194.1724043517650@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAO0FjVbpn+naQtRuixG_CQ-c__zm0iE6cP0e5FRNGTJgU90bmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN6PR04MB5472BC7068D4B7876DF682D7D78C2@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <162822338.9433107.1724074505717@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ce910a65435f83ad4aa534b740ea319a@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <004e01daf304$b29d4140$17d7c3c0$@mindspring.com>

All,

Thank you for all the feedback!  This is great information based on your
experiences and will give me good food for thought.

As for racing clutch vs stock, I defaulted to a racing setup only because
that was what I was accustomed to using in my BMW Spec E46 race car.  I had
the JB Racing flywheel, with a Tilton racing clutch which was the standard
setup for that class.  I had to replace it 3 times over 5 years.   But, of
course the car was 2,900 lbs instead of 1,900 lbs.

Thanks again for all the helpful information - I am learning a lot from this
group and appreciate it!

Regards,

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of yellow04 via Fot
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 8:57 AM
To: FOT
Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Race Clutch Release Bearing - Annular or Standard
Slave Cylinder?

FWIW, Bob and I run similar lap times with our 6 cylinder TR's, typically a
tad faster than the TR4's, and I too run a stock TR6 pressure plate. My
setup is the widely available steel flywheel and a regular AP pressure plate
that costs just over 100 bucks from Moss. My driven plate is a full metallic
paddle disc with no springs. I get seasons of use out of a driven plate, and
I will swap out the pressure plate periodically as they do not last forever.
I ran the same with the TR4.

I just don't see the need for a racing clutch in vintage, we are making
sensible power that the stock stuff can handle just fine. And to stay on
topic, the stock clutch release setup works brilliantly with a stock
pressure plate!

Maybe if I owned a Tilton setup I would see the light, there certainly are
benefits to having the mass of your clutch and flywheel closer to the
rotational center of the engine, but the "KISS" principle works for me!

Henry Frye

On 2024-08-19 09:35, Robert Lang via Fot wrote:

> 
> Regarding clutches - not everyone runs a racing clutch. I use OEM 
> style clutches because I'm not trying to spin the engine like a rotary 
> etc. And I don't build for 3x OEM power. All this is for reliability 
> vs max performance.


From mckearn2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 19:43:58 2024
From: mckearn2 at gmail.com (McKearn McKearn)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:43:58 -0500
Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen
Message-ID: <CAAGAaPUV1f1DWL8aFCUoe=jms-d+6-O9bzAb+TuuNHdaqdHSDw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.
I'm wondering if anyone could recommend a hotel near Watkins Glen N.Y. ?
  Planning on going there for a race in mid September and am not familiar
with the area at all.     No golden chandeliers please...
             Thanks.  P.J.
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From bschirano1 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 20:13:47 2024
From: bschirano1 at gmail.com (Brian Schirano)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2024 22:13:47 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen
In-Reply-To: <CAAGAaPUV1f1DWL8aFCUoe=jms-d+6-O9bzAb+TuuNHdaqdHSDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAGAaPUV1f1DWL8aFCUoe=jms-d+6-O9bzAb+TuuNHdaqdHSDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG9YvYPZKvzuJd086=japN0epDYesJJYAxw_MjdmsD9NH0jVqA@mail.gmail.com>

In Watkins Glen is the Villager <https://www.wgvillagermotel.com/>, and
they have a racers special worth checking out, restaurants and bars are
walking distance.

This is my favorite The Falls Motel <https://thefallsmotel.net/>, in
Montour Falls, the next town over from Watkins but no further away from the
track. reasonably priced, clean, well kept, friendly owner Mike.

Top of the line is the Harbor Hotel
<https://www.watkinsglenharborhotel.com/>, also in the WG village, right at
the bottom of the lake.

Brian
585-305-0349

On Thu, Aug 22, 2024 at 9:49?PM McKearn McKearn via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Hi all.
> I'm wondering if anyone could recommend a hotel near Watkins Glen N.Y. ?
>   Planning on going there for a race in mid September and am not familiar
> with the area at all.     No golden chandeliers please...
>              Thanks.  P.J.
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/bschirano1 at gmail.com
>
>
>

-- 
Brian Schirano
585-305-0349
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From vfracing at aol.com  Fri Aug 23 04:43:47 2024
From: vfracing at aol.com (Philip Gott)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 06:43:47 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen
In-Reply-To: <CAG9YvYPZKvzuJd086=japN0epDYesJJYAxw_MjdmsD9NH0jVqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG9YvYPZKvzuJd086=japN0epDYesJJYAxw_MjdmsD9NH0jVqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D00C8EDA-49B1-4164-B605-38B04B569F59@aol.com>

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From sjanzen at me.com  Fri Aug 23 06:17:56 2024
From: sjanzen at me.com (Scott Janzen)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:17:56 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen
In-Reply-To: <CAAGAaPUV1f1DWL8aFCUoe=jms-d+6-O9bzAb+TuuNHdaqdHSDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAGAaPUV1f1DWL8aFCUoe=jms-d+6-O9bzAb+TuuNHdaqdHSDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E4CF582-BD31-4367-A6C9-01D6CCDBAE95@me.com>

I like to stay at Seneca Lodge.  Classic racer hangout, bar full of photos and laurel wreaths from back in the day, good restaurant and excellent breakfast with fast service.  Rooms can be ?dated?, but price is in proportion.  They also have small freestanding cabins for one or two and aframes - cabins are recently renovated.

Just down the hill from the track - 5 minutes.  Always a $2 bill in your bar change, which is a fun quirk.


On Aug 22, 2024, at 9:43 PM, McKearn McKearn via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Hi all. 
I'm wondering if anyone could recommend a hotel near Watkins Glen N.Y. ?
  Planning on going there for a race in mid September and am not familiar with the area at all.     No golden chandeliers please...
             Thanks.  P.J.
_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/sjanzen at me.com



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From joealexandervintage at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 06:42:22 2024
From: joealexandervintage at gmail.com (Joe Alexander)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 07:42:22 -0500
Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Question GT6 CV joints as contemporary modification
References: <CAMp8634QrEVa7vqc4SbpsbCA-f+FzBAAi7qTaknf5y6ZD=ztrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8852A1F6-936D-42BE-99E8-144BAAF5BB4D@gmail.com>

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From rkramer56 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 07:12:52 2024
From: rkramer56 at gmail.com (Bob Kramer)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:12:52 -0500
Subject: [Fot] dog box transmissions in SCCA racing
Message-ID: <CABFvdWs6JZHxNb3RabsCnvLktdw=6GWKN8QLr_AbpUVnMhwHGA@mail.gmail.com>

Amici,

I am researching this topic for my club's Competition Committee. We have a
proposal on the table to allow an alternate dog box tranny in place of a
Muncie with a weight penalty. We have multiple people running dog boxes in
all production classes under the radar. I don't know if and when the SCCA
made dog boxes legal for Production Cars. I have one of Sam Halkias's old
TR6 racecars and it came with a dog box. Since it fit into the stock case I
presume that it was legal, but maybe not?

Can anyone enlighten me on dog box legality in Production cars and dates of
same?
Or, if it was a case by case rule change thing with the SCCA?

TIA

Bob Kramer
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From solarant at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 23 11:02:13 2024
From: solarant at hotmail.com (Anthony Parker)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 17:02:13 +0000
Subject: [Fot] dog box transmissions in SCCA racing
In-Reply-To: <CABFvdWs6JZHxNb3RabsCnvLktdw=6GWKN8QLr_AbpUVnMhwHGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABFvdWs6JZHxNb3RabsCnvLktdw=6GWKN8QLr_AbpUVnMhwHGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN6PR04MB5472FD57D3599F9973B49CDED7882@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

At least 20 years in Prod Prep Level 1. Probably much earlier.
No need to run stock case.
Number of forward gears are specified and most Triumphs can run 5 speeds because of stock overdrive option.
Just can't be sequential.



________________________________
From: Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Bob Kramer via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2024 9:12 AM
To: Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Fot] dog box transmissions in SCCA racing

Amici,

I am researching this topic for my club's Competition Committee. We have a proposal on the table to allow an alternate dog box tranny in place of a Muncie with a weight penalty. We have multiple people running dog boxes in all production classes under the radar. I don't know if and when the SCCA made dog boxes legal for Production Cars. I have one of Sam Halkias's old TR6 racecars and it came with a dog box. Since it fit into the stock case I presume that it was legal, but maybe not?

Can anyone enlighten me on dog box legality in Production cars and dates of same?
Or, if it was a case by case rule change thing with the SCCA?

TIA

Bob Kramer
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From bschirano1 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 11:10:43 2024
From: bschirano1 at gmail.com (Brian Schirano)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 13:10:43 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen
In-Reply-To: <5E4CF582-BD31-4367-A6C9-01D6CCDBAE95@me.com>
References: <CAAGAaPUV1f1DWL8aFCUoe=jms-d+6-O9bzAb+TuuNHdaqdHSDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5E4CF582-BD31-4367-A6C9-01D6CCDBAE95@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAG9YvYPA4cGfmJVyLjU1VDvD2udQiFE55zOzaBWN069qtDSQ9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Seneca Lodge - 100% cool place - shame on me for not pointing it out!
Brian

On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 8:23?AM Scott Janzen via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> I like to stay at Seneca Lodge.  Classic racer hangout, bar full of photos
> and laurel wreaths from back in the day, good restaurant and excellent
> breakfast with fast service.  Rooms can be ?dated?, but price is in
> proportion.  They also have small freestanding cabins for one or two and
> aframes - cabins are recently renovated.
>
> Just down the hill from the track - 5 minutes.  Always a $2 bill in your
> bar change, which is a fun quirk.
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2024, at 9:43 PM, McKearn McKearn via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> wrote:
>
> Hi all.
> I'm wondering if anyone could recommend a hotel near Watkins Glen N.Y. ?
>   Planning on going there for a race in mid September and am not familiar
> with the area at all.     No golden chandeliers please...
>              Thanks.  P.J.
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/sjanzen at me.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/bschirano1 at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From vfracing at aol.com  Fri Aug 23 11:58:39 2024
From: vfracing at aol.com (Philip Gott)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 13:58:39 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen
In-Reply-To: <CAG9YvYPA4cGfmJVyLjU1VDvD2udQiFE55zOzaBWN069qtDSQ9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG9YvYPA4cGfmJVyLjU1VDvD2udQiFE55zOzaBWN069qtDSQ9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ED5E6D-8987-4401-BB0C-C620E9A6B63C@aol.com>

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From sjanzen at me.com  Fri Aug 23 12:54:29 2024
From: sjanzen at me.com (Scott Janzen)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 14:54:29 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen
In-Reply-To: <55ED5E6D-8987-4401-BB0C-C620E9A6B63C@aol.com>
References: <55ED5E6D-8987-4401-BB0C-C620E9A6B63C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FA860CF2-ABE7-405B-9112-89287B9437B4@me.com>

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From gblake58tr3 at icloud.com  Sun Aug 25 09:04:45 2024
From: gblake58tr3 at icloud.com (Greg Blake)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 10:04:45 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR rear brakes
Message-ID: <D48C0CB4-49B3-4916-8E0B-6BC6816F2931@icloud.com>

Looking over car I seem to have a weeping rear brake cylinder. It lasted 3 race weekends. It?s a 0.75 AP brand from BPNW. The other one held just fine. Is anyone having good luck with wheel cylinders these days? What brand/source are you using?

Previously was have terrible time with rear brakes, but that was a sticky brake pedal that was causing drag and would fry the rears in one session. I?ve sorted that now. 

Appreciate thoughts. 

Greg


Sent from my iPhone

From vfracing at aol.com  Sun Aug 25 09:54:33 2024
From: vfracing at aol.com (Philip Gott)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 11:54:33 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR rear brakes
In-Reply-To: <D48C0CB4-49B3-4916-8E0B-6BC6816F2931@icloud.com>
References: <D48C0CB4-49B3-4916-8E0B-6BC6816F2931@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <2D782EB0-4FDC-4DAA-897B-3E9EFBACCB8F@aol.com>

Hi Greg:
Quality is not what it used to be. We have concluded the best approach is to have an old cylinder bored and sleeved by Apple Hydraulics or White Post restorations or the like.  If you don?t have an old one, have a new one sleeved.
Phil


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2024, at 11:36?AM, Greg Blake via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> ?Looking over car I seem to have a weeping rear brake cylinder. It lasted 3 race weekends. It?s a 0.75 AP brand from BPNW. The other one held just fine. Is anyone having good luck with wheel cylinders these days? What brand/source are you using?
> 
> Previously was have terrible time with rear brakes, but that was a sticky brake pedal that was causing drag and would fry the rears in one session. I?ve sorted that now.
> 
> Appreciate thoughts.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vfracing at aol.com
> 
> 


From jason at jsperformancemotoring.com  Sun Aug 25 11:03:05 2024
From: jason at jsperformancemotoring.com (JS Performance Motoring, LLC)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 13:03:05 -0400
Subject: [Fot] TR rear brakes
In-Reply-To: <D48C0CB4-49B3-4916-8E0B-6BC6816F2931@icloud.com>
References: <D48C0CB4-49B3-4916-8E0B-6BC6816F2931@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN1C=RkeKOwNAm2Kx_d6KCE4X03vu5apywHf_Fai4MZr0bp3w@mail.gmail.com>

Greg,
        I've not found one brand better than the others, but after
experiencing a similar failure, I now 100% inspect new cylinders before
installing.  I pull the piston out, and clean any chips or machining crud
before installing for use, plus check the condition of the seal.



Jason Sukey
JS Performance Motoring, LLC
440.984.7720
jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
https://www.facebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/


On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 11:34?AM Greg Blake via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Looking over car I seem to have a weeping rear brake cylinder. It lasted 3
> race weekends. It?s a 0.75 AP brand from BPNW. The other one held just
> fine. Is anyone having good luck with wheel cylinders these days? What
> brand/source are you using?
>
> Previously was have terrible time with rear brakes, but that was a sticky
> brake pedal that was causing drag and would fry the rears in one session.
> I?ve sorted that now.
>
> Appreciate thoughts.
>
> Greg
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jason at jsperformancemotoring.com
>
>
>
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From awashatko at wi.rr.com  Sun Aug 25 11:16:10 2024
From: awashatko at wi.rr.com (Allen Washatko)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 12:16:10 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR rear brakes
In-Reply-To: <2D782EB0-4FDC-4DAA-897B-3E9EFBACCB8F@aol.com>
References: <2D782EB0-4FDC-4DAA-897B-3E9EFBACCB8F@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BCFB5A3B-FB62-42D3-8700-0AEF3679961D@wi.rr.com>

I learned to never trust a new part. Take it apart and check the quality of the machining. Replaced an oil pump on my TR6 and found metal shavings inside when I inspected it!
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2024, at 12:01?PM, Philip Gott via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi Greg:
> Quality is not what it used to be. We have concluded the best approach is to have an old cylinder bored and sleeved by Apple Hydraulics or White Post restorations or the like.  If you don?t have an old one, have a new one sleeved.
> Phil
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2024, at 11:36?AM, Greg Blake via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Looking over car I seem to have a weeping rear brake cylinder. It lasted 3 race weekends. It?s a 0.75 AP brand from BPNW. The other one held just fine. Is anyone having good luck with wheel cylinders these days? What brand/source are you using?
>> 
>> Previously was have terrible time with rear brakes, but that was a sticky brake pedal that was causing drag and would fry the rears in one session. I?ve sorted that now.
>> 
>> Appreciate thoughts.
>> 
>> Greg
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> fot at autox.team.net
>> 
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>> 
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/vfracing at aol.com
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/awashatko at wi.rr.com
> 
> 


From gblake58tr3 at icloud.com  Sun Aug 25 11:18:08 2024
From: gblake58tr3 at icloud.com (Greg Blake)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 12:18:08 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR3/4 rear shock links
Message-ID: <9C2A2E61-0A09-43D6-8797-694307625244@icloud.com>

While I?m messing with brakes I?m taking a look at other stuff. My stock shock links look a bit worn. Has anyone upgraded these to threaded rod and rod ends? Doesn?t look like a tough project but both ends have a tapper pin attachment so just looking for what others have done. 


Sent from my iPhone

From charly at mitchelplumbing.com  Sun Aug 25 22:13:01 2024
From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 23:13:01 -0500
Subject: [Fot] TR3/4 rear shock links
Message-ID: <60696.1724645581@mitchelplumbing.com>


Yes, I've done it on my TR6, I don't recall if I bored the shaft to be round, but more important is get the right size Heim joint.. I used poly bushings on the lower connection
Charly Mitchel
TR6 #44
On Sun 25/08/24 10:18 AM , Greg Blake via Fot fot at autox.team.net sent:
> While I?m messing with brakes I?m taking a look at other stuff.
> My stock shock links look a bit worn. Has anyone upgraded these to threaded
> rod and rod ends? Doesn?t look like a tough project but both ends
> have a tapper pin attachment so just looking for what others have done.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.
> team.net
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.htmlArchive: http://autox.team.net/archive
> http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ch
> arly at mitchelplumbing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 


From rkramer56 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 17:53:03 2024
From: rkramer56 at gmail.com (Bob Kramer)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2024 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: [Fot] dog box transmissions in SCCA racing
In-Reply-To: <SN6PR04MB5472FD57D3599F9973B49CDED7882@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CABFvdWs6JZHxNb3RabsCnvLktdw=6GWKN8QLr_AbpUVnMhwHGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN6PR04MB5472FD57D3599F9973B49CDED7882@SN6PR04MB5472.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CABFvdWtSkaYEwhZ-Ay2imjc=5m5ae2KDrgzkwY+CB8q6psobww@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Anthony. It took me a while to get around to it but I've now looked
up the current SCCA prep rules. In vintage racing, we have a lot of
cars with non-standard stuff like dog gear tranny's and Wilwood brakes. My
Texas club has a Rules Change process that requires a racer to submit a
proposal including documenting the need. We have approved some items over
the years.  Often the reason is that parts are no longer available, or are
just crap. The problem is that it ends up as an upgrade. Once you do that
for one brand the competition, who didn't ask for or cannot document a need
is now miffed. Some of these improvements result in more HP, traction,
better gearing and create a new weakest link, which soon becomes a rules
change proposal. I'm on the Competition Committee in our club, the one that
works on the change proposals. I'm starting to wonder if we should look at
standardized weight penalties using a percentage of the approved weight
across the board to level the playing field.

[image: image.png]

Bob Kramer


On Fri, Aug 23, 2024 at 12:16?PM Anthony Parker via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> At least 20 years in Prod Prep Level 1. Probably much earlier.
> No need to run stock case.
> Number of forward gears are specified and most Triumphs can run 5 speeds
> because of stock overdrive option.
> Just can't be sequential.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Bob Kramer via Fot <
> fot at autox.team.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 23, 2024 9:12 AM
> *To:* Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [Fot] dog box transmissions in SCCA racing
>
> Amici,
>
> I am researching this topic for my club's Competition Committee. We have a
> proposal on the table to allow an alternate dog box tranny in place of a
> Muncie with a weight penalty. We have multiple people running dog boxes in
> all production classes under the radar. I don't know if and when the SCCA
> made dog boxes legal for Production Cars. I have one of Sam Halkias's old
> TR6 racecars and it came with a dog box. Since it fit into the stock case I
> presume that it was legal, but maybe not?
>
> Can anyone enlighten me on dog box legality in Production cars and dates
> of same?
> Or, if it was a case by case rule change thing with the SCCA?
>
> TIA
>
> Bob Kramer
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/rkramer56 at gmail.com
>
>
>
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From yellow04 at tr4racer.com  Thu Aug 29 05:40:47 2024
From: yellow04 at tr4racer.com (yellow04)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 07:40:47 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Southwick front hub failure - epilogue
In-Reply-To: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>
References: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <4106fe777532b87f5a436aab4d182e5a@tr4racer.com>

The Southwick hub failure I experienced last month apparently was a 
one-off, nobody came forward saying they had, or even heard of a similar 
failure. That's certainly good news for the many of us still running 
original Southwick hubs on the track.

I engaged the best experts I know, took many pictures for my preliminary 
writeup, added a second page of pictures as more questions came up, 
(linked at the bottom of the original page) and here are the 
conclusions.

The amount of force required to fracture the 6061 aluminum as mine did 
was well beyond what anyone would consider normal stress applied to a 
hub. Nobody looked at the pictures and concluded there is an issue with 
the design or the material choice of the original hubs. Nobody saw 
evidence that the material my hub was turned from had any casting 
imperfections.

The biggest question we had was whether I experienced a sudden, 
catastrophic failure, or did the hub crack as the result of some shunt 
and as I put more cycles of stress on the hub the crack propagated to 
the point of failure? If the former, there is not much anybody can do as 
no telltale signs of an impending failure would be evident. If the 
latter, at least in theory crack checking could show if a hub was sound 
or needed replacing.

We concluded the fracture was not sudden and catastrophic. As 6061 
aluminum has a yield strength of about 45,000 psi, and given the fact 
the entire surface area of the fracture is somewhere between 3 and 4 
square inches, the force required for a sudden fracture would be quite 
large. Additionally, keep in mind that other parts (vertical link, axle, 
etc.) would have bent well before the hub saw anything near the force 
required for a sudden fracture. Supporting that theory is the fact there 
must be hundreds of these hubs on track since they were developed in 
2001, and many of them are run with tires with more grip than my 
Speedsters.

We now believe I had some incident at some point that did create a 
crack, and over time that crack propagated until the failure. I don't 
remember any recent incident that could have stressed the hub.

So what to do going forward if you are running the Southwick aluminum 
hubs? Checking your hubs for cracks seems to make sense, but it is 
necessary to remove the inner bearing race to inspect the inner 
circumference of the failure area. The pocket the inner race sits in is 
a tight press fit, and while there should be no issue with the 
occasional removal and reinstallation of the race, we question how many 
times you can perform the R&R of the race without further stressing the 
area we are concerned with.

What follows is the conclusions we made. All your typical disclaimers 
apply, racing is dangerous, nobody else is responsible for what happens 
to you if you heed or ignore any recommendations, etc.

We reached the conclusion that it only makes sense to pull the race out 
for a dye penetrant test if the hub is subjected to some big stresser. 
Perhaps it has taken a hit during an accident, or even a bad off that 
the suspension pounded the bump stop. For a street car, my take would be 
if you hit a good pothole really hard. If someone was doing a routine 
bearing change and removed the race to replace it with new, obviously 
that would be the time to test for cracks. But if the hub has not been 
subjected to a big stress event, it is probably best to leave it alone. 
Routinely performing a R&R on the inner race may be detrimental in the 
long run.

Or, as stated before, GoodParts now manufactures these hubs from 7075 
aluminum and has modified the design somewhat with an eye to make them 
even stronger. These are on my TR250 now.

I have put the broken hub and bits are in the race trailer, anybody who 
cares to see it and render an opinion on what happened is welcome to. 
The story may continue to evolve.

My thanks to Chuck Gee, Glen Efinger and Richard Good for offering their 
time and expertise here.

We are running the Lime Rock Historics this weekend, getting all our 
ducks in a row for the 2025 Kastner Cup one year for now! Stay tuned for 
more info on that!

Cheers

Henry Frye
2025 Kastner Cup Co-Chair


On 2024-08-04 13:35, yellow04 via Fot wrote:
> I am throwing this out there as a public service announcement, I broke
> a part that I thought we had bulletproof solution to. At PittRace last
> weekend I broke one of Southwick's aluminum front hubs. The area of
> the hub that the inner race presses into sheared off, thankfully the
> wheel was retained by the outer bearing and stayed on the car. I don't
> know for how many laps that would have been the case!
> 
> Has anybody else heard of one of these hubs failing?
> 
> Discussions with Richard Good, who took over manufacturing these hubs
> revealed his hubs are turned from a stronger material, the GoodParts
> hubs are made from 7075 T6 aluminum, while Southwick made theirs from
> 6061 T6. Yes, it is a little heavier, but the GoodParts hub is still
> about a pound lighter than stock. If you are unsure where your hubs
> were made, I provided details in the writeup.
> 
> I have also been in contact with Chuck Gee, our resident metallurgist.
> He is suggesting anybody running these Southwick hubs should start a
> program of dye penetration testing.
> 
> Pictures and writeup here.
> 
> https://tr250racer.com/southwick-front-hub-failure/
> 
> Hope this helps everybody keep the shiny side up!

From mecook at mindspring.com  Thu Aug 29 06:45:03 2024
From: mecook at mindspring.com (Mark Cook)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 08:45:03 -0400
Subject: [Fot] Southwick front hub failure - epilogue
In-Reply-To: <4106fe777532b87f5a436aab4d182e5a@tr4racer.com>
References: <bb89bab8a942fffcd3a7d739407cedb5@tr4racer.com>
 <4106fe777532b87f5a436aab4d182e5a@tr4racer.com>
Message-ID: <003001dafa11$45847e70$d08d7b50$@mindspring.com>

Henry,

Thanks for the epilogue.  With the hours and stress put onto race cars, hard
to tell what may have propagated the failure.  But, your experience
highlights a necessary inspection whether or not we elect to change out the
hubs to the 7075 aluminum.

I certainly appreciate all the pictures and especially the great research
and effort put into informing us of your findings.  This is great
information!

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Mark Cook

-----Original Message-----
From: Fot [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of yellow04 via Fot
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2024 7:41 AM
To: FOT
Subject: [Fot] Southwick front hub failure - epilogue

The Southwick hub failure I experienced last month apparently was a 
one-off, nobody came forward saying they had, or even heard of a similar 
failure. That's certainly good news for the many of us still running 
original Southwick hubs on the track.

I engaged the best experts I know, took many pictures for my preliminary 
writeup, added a second page of pictures as more questions came up, 
(linked at the bottom of the original page) and here are the 
conclusions.

The amount of force required to fracture the 6061 aluminum as mine did 
was well beyond what anyone would consider normal stress applied to a 
hub. Nobody looked at the pictures and concluded there is an issue with 
the design or the material choice of the original hubs. Nobody saw 
evidence that the material my hub was turned from had any casting 
imperfections.

The biggest question we had was whether I experienced a sudden, 
catastrophic failure, or did the hub crack as the result of some shunt 
and as I put more cycles of stress on the hub the crack propagated to 
the point of failure? If the former, there is not much anybody can do as 
no telltale signs of an impending failure would be evident. If the 
latter, at least in theory crack checking could show if a hub was sound 
or needed replacing.

We concluded the fracture was not sudden and catastrophic. As 6061 
aluminum has a yield strength of about 45,000 psi, and given the fact 
the entire surface area of the fracture is somewhere between 3 and 4 
square inches, the force required for a sudden fracture would be quite 
large. Additionally, keep in mind that other parts (vertical link, axle, 
etc.) would have bent well before the hub saw anything near the force 
required for a sudden fracture. Supporting that theory is the fact there 
must be hundreds of these hubs on track since they were developed in 
2001, and many of them are run with tires with more grip than my 
Speedsters.

We now believe I had some incident at some point that did create a 
crack, and over time that crack propagated until the failure. I don't 
remember any recent incident that could have stressed the hub.

So what to do going forward if you are running the Southwick aluminum 
hubs? Checking your hubs for cracks seems to make sense, but it is 
necessary to remove the inner bearing race to inspect the inner 
circumference of the failure area. The pocket the inner race sits in is 
a tight press fit, and while there should be no issue with the 
occasional removal and reinstallation of the race, we question how many 
times you can perform the R&R of the race without further stressing the 
area we are concerned with.

What follows is the conclusions we made. All your typical disclaimers 
apply, racing is dangerous, nobody else is responsible for what happens 
to you if you heed or ignore any recommendations, etc.

We reached the conclusion that it only makes sense to pull the race out 
for a dye penetrant test if the hub is subjected to some big stresser. 
Perhaps it has taken a hit during an accident, or even a bad off that 
the suspension pounded the bump stop. For a street car, my take would be 
if you hit a good pothole really hard. If someone was doing a routine 
bearing change and removed the race to replace it with new, obviously 
that would be the time to test for cracks. But if the hub has not been 
subjected to a big stress event, it is probably best to leave it alone. 
Routinely performing a R&R on the inner race may be detrimental in the 
long run.

Or, as stated before, GoodParts now manufactures these hubs from 7075 
aluminum and has modified the design somewhat with an eye to make them 
even stronger. These are on my TR250 now.

I have put the broken hub and bits are in the race trailer, anybody who 
cares to see it and render an opinion on what happened is welcome to. 
The story may continue to evolve.

My thanks to Chuck Gee, Glen Efinger and Richard Good for offering their 
time and expertise here.

We are running the Lime Rock Historics this weekend, getting all our 
ducks in a row for the 2025 Kastner Cup one year for now! Stay tuned for 
more info on that!

Cheers

Henry Frye
2025 Kastner Cup Co-Chair


On 2024-08-04 13:35, yellow04 via Fot wrote:
> I am throwing this out there as a public service announcement, I broke
> a part that I thought we had bulletproof solution to. At PittRace last
> weekend I broke one of Southwick's aluminum front hubs. The area of
> the hub that the inner race presses into sheared off, thankfully the
> wheel was retained by the outer bearing and stayed on the car. I don't
> know for how many laps that would have been the case!
> 
> Has anybody else heard of one of these hubs failing?
> 
> Discussions with Richard Good, who took over manufacturing these hubs
> revealed his hubs are turned from a stronger material, the GoodParts
> hubs are made from 7075 T6 aluminum, while Southwick made theirs from
> 6061 T6. Yes, it is a little heavier, but the GoodParts hub is still
> about a pound lighter than stock. If you are unsure where your hubs
> were made, I provided details in the writeup.
> 
> I have also been in contact with Chuck Gee, our resident metallurgist.
> He is suggesting anybody running these Southwick hubs should start a
> program of dye penetration testing.
> 
> Pictures and writeup here.
> 
> https://tr250racer.com/southwick-front-hub-failure/
> 
> Hope this helps everybody keep the shiny side up!
_______________________________________________
fot at autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/mecook at mindspring.com




From mckearn2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 29 21:04:48 2024
From: mckearn2 at gmail.com (McKearn McKearn)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 22:04:48 -0500
Subject: [Fot] GT6 MK3
Message-ID: <CAAGAaPW=Bbj=Nr1aQSxn-t6MB4s7iy0LSJjO_sxpkJKnvL7Tsg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friends.
Can someone tell me what the width is from wheel flange to wheel flange at
0 deg. camber on a 72 GT6 MK3 ?  I'm doing a little modification and I
forgot to measure that ahead of time.
                                 Thanks. P.J.
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From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Aug 30 08:16:23 2024
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 08:16:23 -0600
Subject: [Fot] 2024 K Cup shirts?
Message-ID: <20e4728c-0380-4685-863b-0e1729297f4f@bradakis.com>

Are there any more XL Kastner Cup t shirts?  I just stained the front of 
mine, would like to get another.

mjb.

From tomstrange5 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 09:29:28 2024
From: tomstrange5 at gmail.com (tom strange)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 11:29:28 -0400
Subject: [Fot] 2024 K Cup shirts?
In-Reply-To: <20e4728c-0380-4685-863b-0e1729297f4f@bradakis.com>
References: <20e4728c-0380-4685-863b-0e1729297f4f@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <CALDumpBCzhTYgs3Cf+8y3Mm32t6cGY1OGUpFKXemkzrzLSZXhg@mail.gmail.com>

  Also.... if there are any floating around, after Mark I'd like one also,
same size, XL.
Thanks
Tom
#59 Red GT6

On Fri, Aug 30, 2024, 10:22 AM Mark Bradakis via Fot <fot at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Are there any more XL Kastner Cup t shirts?  I just stained the front of
> mine, would like to get another.
>
> mjb.
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tomstrange5 at gmail.com
>
>
>
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