[Fot] A cam for Rick

Sun Jan 22 05:46:04 MST 2023

Hi FOT,
I used Larry Young’s site to learn a lot about cams and their relative effects on engine performance with some crude engine modeling software, in the quest to pick the right cam for my wants, building a strong mid range engine, trying not to spin over 6,000 if I can help it with a stock based crank.    Does anyone happen to have the specs on the Gillander’s #24 they could share?  Just curious.  Maybe it’s at the pointy end of the list below?
Rick McCurdy, here’s the cam reference list Larry put together, below, and I’d sure be curious what Rick Parent’s software would say I should have done!!!  
Triumph Cams 

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Triumph Cams

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Dave Gott

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 2:11 PM, Rick Parent via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:

Hi Henry
(DISCLAIMER) I am not an expert on this subject but what I do know I am glad to share.
I know this subject can be controversial just because there are so many opposing opinions. Let me start by saying I have no interest in fighting over whose opinion is right or wrong mainly because an opinion is not science or fact based quantifiable data. I am however more than willing to have a fruitful conversation that helps every one increase their knowledge base on this subject.
Camshafts along with many (too many, haha) other high performance or racing items have been my passion for over 45 years and I have spent countless dollars and hours investigating this so called black art called cam design. I have asked some of the best cam designers in the world about what I need in any particular motor and reached a point where some started saying " I don't know the answer to that question", others blew me off by saying that won't work with no explanation why. When I was right around 40 years old I took on the attitude screw it, I'm going to do it anyhow. I can truthfully say most things I tried in fact did not work but some things actually did. 
Moving forward there are 2 quotes I am reminded of that I think are applicable here, the first is; " It's easier to convince someone of a lie that convince them they have been lied to" and the second is "Everything in the universe can be explained with math".
In a general sense Ed Iskendarion, Harvey Crane, Dema Elgin and many others were way ahead of their time and did their best to apply some math for smoothing purposes and trial and error to build cams that would make power and not beat the valve train to death. Over the years cam companies have amassed thousands of lobe profiles and that combined with a ton of dyno run data from engine builders is how they make their recommendations for todays customers so the question is can they get you close? I think so depending on what engine you are working with, Chevy's and Fords, you have a really good chance. Other off brand or non mainstream engines are basically what someone has developed on their own through trial and error like Kas. As a side note, many NASCAR engine shops have 55 gallon barrels full of trial and error camshafts headed to the scrap yard.
The worlds best cam designer to date in my opinion would be a guy you never heard of named Dick Jones. Dick had developed the math by proving it over decades of testing and has 4 Indy wins to his credit among many other wins in racing. Dicks son Rick Jones has take the math a step further by refining it and building a software program that will make you look like a hero right out of the box.
Today, there is a way to have the perfect camshaft for your specific combination of parts. The perfect cam may or may not make more max hp than what you have currently depending on how good your combination of parts are. My motors have made a couple more hp on the top but tons more on the bottom and mid range which is why I have been accused of cheating, the cars really accelerate of the corners which is how you win races.
SUPPLY AND DEMAND    
In simple terms, a combination of engine parts is the demand side and the camshaft acts as the supply side. X engine specs demand X supply to make X HP at X RPM's, the cam design software looks at these parameters and mathematically generates a profile providing the supply the your combination of parts demand. The specifics are a little hard to get your head around and that's why I offered to help with cam designs.
Most race engine camshafts are too large in my experience, that's why the TQ range is so tight or small (peaky). Enzo once said, HP sells cars and TQ wins races. Example - ideally we want a really wide TQ band say 4500-8000 for example. If the engine makes peak HP at say 7500rpm and still is making power at 8000 your combo of parts are good. If the motor makes peak HP at 7500 and drops off a cliff at 7600 your parts are not capable of getting to 8000, its not the camshafts fault generally speaking.
You can get the software here and its stupid cheap at the moment. https://induction-logic.com/ 
I thinks that's enough to get the ball rolling don't you, haha.
Questions / comments??

Rick Parent
"Doing the right thing is always the right thing, regardless of consequences"

    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 05:10:09 AM MST, yellow04 via Fot <fot at autox.team.net> wrote:  

 Rick,

Needing to beat the guys at the pointy end of the pack is what racing is 
all about, right?

If your engine has the billet bottom end you describe, you can safely 
run pretty much any cam you desire. Plenty of options out there, from 
mild to wild. You are going to get a bunch of opinions out of this 
thread!

First data point for you, the majority of the front running 4 cylinder 
TR's in the east run the old Gillanders #24. It's a beast, makes power 
up to and beyond 7 grand. You let the revs drop below 4 grand and it is 
game over for that lap! I can tell you multiple Kastner Cup winners had 
that cam in their car when they took home the Cup.

Henry

Rick McCurdy wrote:
> 
> On another subject (and because I haven’t figured out how to do a
> ‘dry’ post), my motor got a bit ‘fried’ at the K Cup in
> Pittsburgh last summer. In short, I’m seeking advice on a good, high
> quality camshaft for a TR4 motor. Billet crank, Carillo rods, forged
> pistons, etc.
> 
> Any suggestions? I’m not an engineer, just a musician, and I don’t
> need to beat Henry Frye! (Well, not right away…😁)
> 
> Thanks,

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