[Fot] TR3 Weights

Sun Sep 20 06:11:16 MDT 2015

Barry, one more thing. Are your front springs the rising rate type?  It occurs to me that front roll stiffness increases with greater body lean, as might occur near the end of a decreasing radius turn. Greater roll stiffness in front means increased understeer. 
Duncan

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:11 PM, Barry Munson <barry at penybryn.ca> wrote:
> 
> Amici - With the recent string discussing weights and currently dealing with
> a TR3 which understeers in hair pins and decreasing radius corners (right
> turns being the worst) but is neutral and very controllable in high speed
> corners, left or right, I took the opportunity at a recent event to explore
> the weight distribution on the TR3 and using the data try to determine
> whether I had a tire issue or there was something inherent with the weight
> distribution that was contributing to the understeering problem.
> First a bit of background. The car is a 1959 TR3A that I use as my daily
> driver in the summer and it takes me a day to convert it to racing
> configuration. The weights below are for the car in its racing configuration
> but includes the battery in its stock position, heater, windshield wipers,
> headlights and front and rear bumpers. The car has a complete TR6 front
> suspension (2 deg. neg. camber, 3 deg. pos. castor, 1/32 toe-in), TR6 comp.
> front coils and comp. rear leaf springs and a 7/8 anti-roll bar.  
> Static weight, ie no driver, but with 5 gals. of fuel is 2009 lbs.
> 
> LF - 564      RF - 518
> LR - 462      LR - 465
> 
> Front wt. - 1082   53.9%
> Rear wt. -  927    46.1% 
> Left wt.  -  1026   51.1%
> Right wt. - 983     48.9%
> Right Cross wt. - 980  48.8%
> 
> I include these weights more for information than anything else since the
> more relevant weights are with the driver and all his equipment in the car.
> 
> With the driver and equipment the total weight was 2221 lbs.
> 
> LF - 638     RF - 515
> LR - 547     RR - 521
> 
> Front - 1153   51.9%
> Rear - 1068    48.1%
> 
> Left - 1185   53.4%
> Right -1036   46.7%
> 
> Left Cross wt. -  1159   52.2%
> Right Cross wt. - 1062  47.8%
> 
> So what does this mean and how do I interpret it especially considering the
> understeering problem that I'm dealing with. Well that's not easy. I'll
> include a couple of quotes to see if that clarifies the issue - or maybe
> not......
> 
> From Per Schroedar, Grassroots Motorsport - " ....Left cross weight >50% the
> car will likely understeer in a right hand turn because right rear tire
> carries more load so the car drives off the right hand turn better. But in a
> left turn the opposite occurs and the handling is worse. In almost all cases
> the loss of corning performance in one direction is greater than the gain in
> the other direction." Not sure that I completely understand this.....
> 
> From Dennis Grant, Autocross to Win, Farnorthracing.com -
> 
> "Adjusting corner weights is one of those things that is part of your
> baseline setup, but finding any sort of agreement on just how to set corner
> weights is next to impossible. It seems everybody has their own favourite
> formula and magic sequence.
> 
> I'm no different.
> 
> My method takes as a given that your car is, being production based, almost
> certainly left side and front end heavy, thanks to the packaging of the
> driver (offset left) and the engine/transmission (offset front). There are,
> of course, exceptions, but for the majority of us, the physical distribution
> of weight inside the vehicle is asymmetrical - and so then will be the
> corner weights.
> 
> No amount of twiddling spring perches or cranking down on load bolts can
> compensate for 200+ lbs of driver offset 10 inches left of the vehicle
> centreline. Unless there is a corresponding mass in very nearly the same
> location (in plan view) the corner weights will be offset left.
> 
> So then, the question becomes how to best minimize the effects of the
> asymmetric weight distribution. If we have to live with it, at least we can
> reduce the effects and keep things reasonably balanced.
> 
> Unless you only have left turns to deal with, you don't want to talk about
> "cross weight" or "wedge". Those can be helpful in setting up a car that has
> purposeful lateral static weight distribution bias because all turns are in
> the same direction, but we don't play that game. It doesn't help at all that
> most electronic racing scales sold in North America are intended for the
> roundy-round guys and so will happily show you cross weight like it was the
> magic ticket - it isn't.
> 
> Instead, I like to set up a car so that it has equal left weight front and
> rear; that is, the portion of the left side weight on the front wheels is
> the same as the portion on the rear wheels, by percentage. If the car has
> 52% front left weight, then it should have 52% rear left weight. Why? So
> there's no diagonal bias and no static twisting moment. It seems to keep the
> car more predictable."
> 
> OK, using Grant's thought process and his Corner Weight Calculator here's
> what the TR3's corner weights would look like: 
> Take 23 lbs out of the left front and right rear and add 23 lbs to the right
> front and left rear which would give you the following distribution - 
> 
> Left Front - 615.2       Right Front - 537.8
> Left Rear - 569.8        Right Rear - 498.2
> 
> Front Left - 53.34%
> Rear Left - 53.37%
> 
> Left  - 1185   53.35%
> Right - 1036  46.65%
> 
> Left Cross wt. -   113.0    50.11%
> Right Cross wt. -  1108    49.89%
> 
> Hmmmmm need to think about this.........
> 
> Barry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> fot at autox.team.net
> 
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/duncan.charlton54@gmail.com
> 
> 