[Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

Thu Sep 25 23:51:52 MDT 2008

I've only raced with CVAR.  What is the guideline in other vintage groups?

In CVAR the rule (law) is that you drive your line.  Anyone making a pass
has to respect YOUR line.  I've never had it qualified for if you're doing
brake tests, engine run in, etc.  If you are in front, you run the line.

Obviously, if the car is sick and you're just nursing it to the pits, you
run off line and let the run group through.  Common sense.

Unless you're at speed. Whatever "reasonable" speed might be at that point
on the track.

Then you keep running the "line".

So.. good luck in the future.  

Cheers,

Jim
Dallas

  _____  

From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of quicktr4
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:44 AM
To: Bill Babcock
Cc: 'FOT'; britbits at netzero.com
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

a point around is mearly an idication the driver is aware of your presence
and leaving the pass to you. of course he is going to drive the line. yo
have to pass in a safe maner.
Jeff

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bill Babcock <mailto:Billb at bnj.com>  
To: Bill Babcock <mailto:Billb at bnj.com>  
Cc: 'FOT' <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>  ; britbits at netzero.com 
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I come away
convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right.  Steven says " A red 2002
is approaching me and I waved him to the left and moved to the right a
little bit, while staying pretty close to the

line."  OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me.    

On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:

Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your
racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line if you
are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect
you to hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a
safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was
NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And
in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be
on the line then.  

Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is
it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you
point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't go
into the dirt because he wanted to. 

On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:

I understand the intent....

When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the
understanding was that you "drove the line".  If someone wanted to  pass
you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.

Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?

One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to allow
easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that session and give him
a new oriface for violating the basic rule.

When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini Cooper S) so
giving hand signals was difficult.   But my expectation was that if I was
signalling right.. the overtaking car should use that information in order
to make a safe pass.

I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each vintage group
and a consensus formed before racers go on track.  If the rule is "stay on
the line" then one set of rule apply.   If it's "if you're not at speed pick
a different line" that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the track.

It all comes down to communication.

Cheers,

Jim
Dallas
too many toys, not enough $$$

  _____  

From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Bill Babcock
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
To: britbits at netzero.com
Cc: 'FOT'
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete before
reading. 

I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the "douchebag's
position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that did NOT NEED to be
at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at full chat--and pointed
me into a place I did not want to go. So my question is, if you were
traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is
where you need to be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are
at speed and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are driving to
the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place that the
laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do. 

There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are not
at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a
car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely.
I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes
three times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving
instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I
considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the
the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you come
up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower than
you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift
and wait. 

If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path through
the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you can't tuck in
behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to stand on their
brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt
Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are responsible. 

We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with picnics.
Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't belong
anywhere near the racing line. 

On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:

Steven,

Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage events... so
some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC games feel
they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer".  Or maybe they saw "Days of
Thunder" once too often ;)

Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad idea to
install an in car camera.  Next time.. grab an official and show them the
video.  It's kind of hard to argue against a video.

Cheers,

Jim
Dallas

-----Original Message-----
From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Steven Belfer
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
To: FOT
Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

Speaking of dangerous driving situations,  two weekends ago I raced at
Buttonwillow in my TR3.  I had new brakes that needed bedding.  This meant I
needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so
I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend.  I was in the
first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys what I needed
to do and started in the back.  I'm also running a fresh engine and feeling
that out as well.  Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done
bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped.  This is the first "Warm-up"
session of the weekend.  A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the
left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the
line.  Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE DIRT at
full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, threw some
rocks onto my car and kept going.  This guy was racing hard with a yellow
P1800 and not letting up one bit.  He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time
when overtaking me.  The level of aggression took me by surprise and made me
angry.  It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my best to get
my job done safely and get off  
the race track.   I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's  
dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize money."
I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of their
machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and
you're in big trouble

  _____  

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