[Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
Bill Babcock
Billb at bnj.com
Thu Sep 25 22:45:18 MDT 2008
Oops, I forgot, Pittsburg Grand Prix, Watkins Glen, and Beaverrun
(last year)
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:37 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:
> And if you're intent on staying off the tracks I race on, that would
> be most of the west cost (PIR, Seattle Raceways, Mission,
> thunderhill, Infineon, Laguna Seca, Willow Springs) plus last year
> VIR, Brainerd, Grattan, Road America, Road Atlanta, Limerock, and
> Mosport. I expect to do Miller, and Barbur next year as well. Have
> fun with the rest.
> On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Jim wrote:
>
>> Define "speed".
>>
>> Is it the speed your car is capable of... your personal preference,
>> or the normal speed of the run group?
>>
>> If Steve was running around the track at some really reduced
>> speed... yeah, he should move off line. But what's the legal
>> definition? 10mph slower? 20? 30? Who defines that?
>>
>> What's more important on a race course? A clear line? Or
>> predicable drivers? What's safer?
>>
>> Keeping in mind that the scenario is also an early morning warm up
>> session. Do you pull full rev full bore racing moves in that
>> scenario? Where do you race? So I can avoid those tracks?
>>
>> Or did you read the original post at all? Going by too fast to read?
>>
>> Or should I slow down my questions so you can understand?
>>
>> Anyway... what's the ultimate goal of this mess? Corporate
>> sponsorship and playboy bunnies? That was 30+ year ago.
>>
>> We're just supposed to be out there having fun.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jim
>> Dallas
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Bill Babcock [mailto:Billb at bnj.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 PM
>> To: britbits at netzero.com
>> Cc: 'FOT'
>> Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>
>> Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing
>> speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move
>> off the line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea.
>> The overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is
>> responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was
>> talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing speed,
>> in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any racing
>> organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on
>> the line then.
>>
>> Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe
>> nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able
>> to go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I
>> bet that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:
>>
>>> I understand the intent....
>>>
>>> When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the
>>> understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone wanted
>>> to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.
>>>
>>> Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?
>>>
>>> One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to
>>> allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that
>>> session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.
>>>
>>> When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini
>>> Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my
>>> expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking
>>> car should use that information in order to make a safe pass.
>>>
>>> I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each
>>> vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track.
>>> If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply. If
>>> it's "if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also
>>> needs to be agreed before cars hit the track.
>>>
>>> It all comes down to communication.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>> Dallas
>>> too many toys, not enough $$$
>>>
>>> From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-
>>> bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
>>> To: britbits at netzero.com
>>> Cc: 'FOT'
>>> Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>>
>>> You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete
>>> before reading.
>>>
>>>
>>> I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
>>> "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed
>>> that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was
>>> traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want
>>> to go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why
>>> were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to
>>> be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at
>>> speed and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are
>>> driving to the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is
>>> the only place that the laws of physics permit your car to be,
>>> then you do.
>>>
>>> There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you
>>> are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this
>>> guy who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I
>>> always passed him so closely. I, and the entire race group,
>>> generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three times. He was
>>> driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving instructor
>>> told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I
>>> considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any
>>> day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In
>>> contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out,
>>> they might be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where
>>> they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift and wait.
>>>
>>> If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe
>>> path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up
>>> behind you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a
>>> corner--they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and
>>> that's dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say,
>>> the other driver was to blame, but you are responsible.
>>>
>>> We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with
>>> picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed
>>> you don't belong anywhere near the racing line.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steven,
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage
>>>> events... so
>>>> some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC
>>>> games feel
>>>> they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they
>>>> saw "Days of
>>>> Thunder" once too often ;)
>>>>
>>>> Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad
>>>> idea to
>>>> install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show
>>>> them the
>>>> video. It's kind of hard to argue against a video.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>> Dallas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-
>>>> bounces at autox.team.net] On
>>>> Behalf Of Steven Belfer
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
>>>> To: FOT
>>>> Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends ago I
>>>> raced at
>>>> Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed bedding.
>>>> This meant I
>>>> needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let
>>>> them cool so
>>>> I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I
>>>> was in the
>>>> first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys
>>>> what I needed
>>>> to do and started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine
>>>> and feeling
>>>> that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about
>>>> done
>>>> bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the
>>>> first "Warm-up"
>>>> session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved
>>>> him to the
>>>> left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty
>>>> close to the
>>>> line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON
>>>> THE DIRT at
>>>> full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly,
>>>> threw some
>>>> rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard with
>>>> a yellow
>>>> P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice
>>>> his lap time
>>>> when overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise
>>>> and made me
>>>> angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my
>>>> best to get
>>>> my job done safely and get off
>>>> the race track. I tell my friends and family, when they ask if
>>>> it's
>>>> dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no
>>>> prize money."
>>>> I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of
>>>> their
>>>> machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag
>>>> move and
>>>> you're in big trouble.
>>>>
>>>> ~SB
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> Bill Babcock
>>> Babcock & Jenkins
>>> Billb at bnj.com
>>> 503.936.7660
>>> www.bnj.com
>>>
>>> Editor
>>> Ke Nalu e-Magazine
>>> Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
>>>
>>> Bill at kenalu.com
>>> www.kenalu.com
>>> blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> Reach your goals of being healthier and happier. Click here for
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>>
>> Bill Babcock
>> Babcock & Jenkins
>> Billb at bnj.com
>> 503.936.7660
>> www.bnj.com
>>
>> Editor
>> Ke Nalu e-Magazine
>> Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
>>
>> Bill at kenalu.com
>> www.kenalu.com
>> blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Hotel pics, info and virtual tours. Click here to book a hotel
>> online.
>
> Bill Babcock
> Babcock & Jenkins
> Billb at bnj.com
> 503.936.7660
> www.bnj.com
>
> Editor
> Ke Nalu e-Magazine
> Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
>
> Bill at kenalu.com
> www.kenalu.com
> blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
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>
Bill Babcock
Babcock & Jenkins
Billb at bnj.com
503.936.7660
www.bnj.com
Editor
Ke Nalu e-Magazine
Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
Bill at kenalu.com
www.kenalu.com
blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
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