[Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

Thu Sep 25 22:33:22 MDT 2008

I like Playboy Bunnies...A Lot...They ARE fun...and...That's part of the whole Motor Racing Glamour...Old Movies like Grand Prix...LeMans...A Man and a Woman.....we had Umbrella Girls at the CSRG Charity Challenge 3 years ago...Wooohoo!..We laugh a lot in the pits during our CSRG Races...Our Gang has a Great Time...
Racer Bud
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim 
  To: 'Bill Babcock' 
  Cc: 'FOT' 
  Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

  Define "speed".

  Is it the speed your car is capable of... your personal preference, or the normal speed of the run group?

  If Steve was running around the track at some really reduced speed... yeah, he should move off line.  But what's the legal definition?  10mph slower?  20?  30?  Who defines that?

  What's more important on a race course?  A clear line?  Or predicable drivers?   What's safer?

  Keeping in mind that the scenario is also an early morning warm up session.  Do you pull full rev full bore racing moves in that scenario?  Where do you race?  So I can avoid those tracks?

  Or did you read the original post at all?  Going by too fast to read?

  Or should I slow down my questions so you can understand?

  Anyway... what's the ultimate goal of this mess?  Corporate sponsorship and playboy bunnies?  That was 30+ year ago.  

  We're just supposed to be out there having fun.  

  Cheers,

  Jim
  Dallas

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  From: Bill Babcock [mailto:Billb at bnj.com] 
  Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 PM
  To: britbits at netzero.com
  Cc: 'FOT'
  Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

  Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the line then.  

  Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to. 

  On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:

    I understand the intent....

    When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the understanding was that you "drove the line".  If someone wanted to  pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.

    Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?

    One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.

    When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult.   But my expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car should use that information in order to make a safe pass.

    I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track.  If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply.   If it's "if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the track.

    It all comes down to communication.

    Cheers,

    Jim
    Dallas
    too many toys, not enough $$$

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    From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock
    Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
    To: britbits at netzero.com
    Cc: 'FOT'
    Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

    You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete before reading. 

    I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are driving to the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place that the laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do. 

    There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift and wait. 

    If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are responsible. 

    We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't belong anywhere near the racing line. 

    On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:

      Steven,

      Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage events... so
      some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC games feel
      they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer".  Or maybe they saw "Days of
      Thunder" once too often ;)

      Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad idea to
      install an in car camera.  Next time.. grab an official and show them the
      video.  It's kind of hard to argue against a video.

      Cheers,

      Jim
      Dallas

      -----Original Message-----
      From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net] On
      Behalf Of Steven Belfer
      Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
      To: FOT
      Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

      Speaking of dangerous driving situations,  two weekends ago I raced at
      Buttonwillow in my TR3.  I had new brakes that needed bedding.  This meant I
      needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so
      I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend.  I was in the
      first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys what I needed
      to do and started in the back.  I'm also running a fresh engine and feeling
      that out as well.  Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done
      bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped.  This is the first "Warm-up"
      session of the weekend.  A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the
      left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the
      line.  Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE DIRT at
      full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, threw some
      rocks onto my car and kept going.  This guy was racing hard with a yellow
      P1800 and not letting up one bit.  He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time
      when overtaking me.  The level of aggression took me by surprise and made me
      angry.  It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my best to get
      my job done safely and get off  
      the race track.   I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's  
      dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize money."
      I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of their
      machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and
      you're in big trouble.

      ~SB

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    Bill Babcock
    Babcock & Jenkins
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  Babcock & Jenkins
  Billb at bnj.com
  503.936.7660
  www.bnj.com

  Editor
  Ke Nalu e-Magazine
  Paddlesurfing's Web Journal

  Bill at kenalu.com
  www.kenalu.com
  blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog

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