[Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving

Thu Sep 25 22:25:37 MDT 2008

I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I come away  
convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right.  Steven says " A  
red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the left and moved to  
the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the
line."  OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me.

On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:

> Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing  
> speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move  
> off the line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea.  
> The overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is  
> responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was  
> talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing speed,  
> in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any racing  
> organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the  
> line then.
>
> Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe  
> nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able  
> to go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I  
> bet that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to.
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:
>
>> I understand the intent....
>>
>> When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the  
>> understanding was that you "drove the line".  If someone wanted to   
>> pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.
>>
>> Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?
>>
>> One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to  
>> allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that  
>> session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.
>>
>> When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini  
>> Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult.   But my  
>> expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car  
>> should use that information in order to make a safe pass.
>>
>> I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each vintage  
>> group and a consensus formed before racers go on track.  If the  
>> rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply.   If it's  
>> "if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to  
>> be agreed before cars hit the track.
>>
>> It all comes down to communication.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jim
>> Dallas
>> too many toys, not enough $$$
>>
>> From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot- 
>> bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock
>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
>> To: britbits at netzero.com
>> Cc: 'FOT'
>> Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>
>> You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete  
>> before reading.
>>
>>
>> I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the  
>> "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed  
>> that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was  
>> traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want  
>> to go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why  
>> were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to  
>> be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed  
>> and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are driving to  
>> the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place  
>> that the laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do.
>>
>> There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you  
>> are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this  
>> guy who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I  
>> always passed him so closely. I, and the entire race group,  
>> generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three times. He was  
>> driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving instructor told  
>> him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I considered him  
>> the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the the  
>> track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you  
>> come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH  
>> slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but  
>> respect for that, lift and wait.
>>
>> If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe  
>> path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind  
>> you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner-- 
>> they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and that's  
>> dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say, the  
>> other driver was to blame, but you are responsible.
>>
>> We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with  
>> picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed  
>> you don't belong anywhere near the racing line.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:
>>
>>> Steven,
>>>
>>> Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage  
>>> events... so
>>> some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC  
>>> games feel
>>> they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer".  Or maybe they saw  
>>> "Days of
>>> Thunder" once too often ;)
>>>
>>> Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad  
>>> idea to
>>> install an in car camera.  Next time.. grab an official and show  
>>> them the
>>> video.  It's kind of hard to argue against a video.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>> Dallas
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: fot-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:fot- 
>>> bounces at autox.team.net] On
>>> Behalf Of Steven Belfer
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
>>> To: FOT
>>> Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>>
>>> Speaking of dangerous driving situations,  two weekends ago I  
>>> raced at
>>> Buttonwillow in my TR3.  I had new brakes that needed bedding.   
>>> This meant I
>>> needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let  
>>> them cool so
>>> I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend.  I  
>>> was in the
>>> first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys  
>>> what I needed
>>> to do and started in the back.  I'm also running a fresh engine  
>>> and feeling
>>> that out as well.  Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about  
>>> done
>>> bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped.  This is the first  
>>> "Warm-up"
>>> session of the weekend.  A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved  
>>> him to the
>>> left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty  
>>> close to the
>>> line.  Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE  
>>> DIRT at
>>> full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly,  
>>> threw some
>>> rocks onto my car and kept going.  This guy was racing hard with a  
>>> yellow
>>> P1800 and not letting up one bit.  He didn't want to sacrifice his  
>>> lap time
>>> when overtaking me.  The level of aggression took me by surprise  
>>> and made me
>>> angry.  It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my  
>>> best to get
>>> my job done safely and get off
>>> the race track.   I tell my friends and family, when they ask if  
>>> it's
>>> dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize  
>>> money."
>>> I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of  
>>> their
>>> machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag  
>>> move and
>>> you're in big trouble
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