From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 08:38:16 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:38:16 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Amici, In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this is going to be accomplished. What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Aaron Johnson #87 HP Spitfire 1500 Southern Illinois Region SCCA From REK46 at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:01:01 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:01:01 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:07:22 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:07:22 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 10:55:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fpspitfire at comcast.net writes: What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Depending on how far gone your car is, you could probably get it back to vintage spec. You would need new sheet metal of course. You motor and gbx should be OK. Jack Woehrle SVRA Technical Director **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of TR-Spitfire-08.pdf] From trmarty at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:08:09 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:08:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Paging Joe Curry Message-ID: Joe you out there? Drop me an email if you can. Email address I had found for you is getting bounced back. Thanks, Marty Sukey trmarty at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the im Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount From emanteno at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 09:14:38 2008 From: emanteno at comcast.net (emanteno at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:14:38 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060120081514.1796.4842BCDE000BC79A000007042207021633970A9D010507@comcast.net> You can run with Midwestern Council. Go to their website for more details. They run Blackhawk, Road America, and I think Gingerman and Autobahn. http://www.mcscc.org/ Irv -------------- Original message -------------- From: fpspitfire at comcast.net > Amici, > > In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises > many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is > coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F > production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this > is going to be accomplished. > > What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be > competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take > either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. > > What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car > running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... > > I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. > > Aaron Johnson > #87 HP Spitfire 1500 > Southern Illinois Region SCCA > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as emanteno at comcast.net From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 1 09:32:56 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:32:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> References: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000101c8c3fc$c3bcbbc0$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Ever since the current president took over SCCA has ceased to be a club and has become a business. Like all businesses, it is all about the bottom line. Eliminating classes is one way to minimize expenses. For what it's worth, I dropped my SCCA membership about 3 years ago for the same reason. The Solo classes were also being compressed, making it impossible for certain cars (including mine) to be anywhere near competitive. Cheers, Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of fpspitfire at comcast.net Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:38 AM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Amici, In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this is going to be accomplished. What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Aaron Johnson #87 HP Spitfire 1500 Southern Illinois Region SCCA Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:43:17 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:43:17 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, REK46 at aol.com writes: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 10:07:51 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:07:51 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 12:01:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JWoesvra at aol.com writes: Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for newer spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle I might add that at Watkins Glen this year when we feature Triumph, we WILL accept certain current spec Triumphs, just as we are doing for Sprite in a few weeks at Mid-Ohio. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From garygret at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 1 10:11:08 2008 From: garygret at sbcglobal.net (Gary Schneider) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <433988.99112.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Midwestern Council still has all the old Prod and GT groups, as well as the orphaned Spec Renaults which sometimes turn out a half-dozen cars. Rules are on the website and practically identical to SCCA. SCCA licenses are accepted since there is a lot of cross-over. There's also a vintage group at each race which runs all VH classes together, but rarely has more than 15 cars so there's a lot of room on the track. George Br. unfortunately took away our standing RA date this year, but BFR is the home track, Autobahn has a couple events and probably we'll go back to Milwaukee next year when they sort themselves out. Also an all volunteer group, so most race days are only $200-240 with a discount for running a second race group. Regards, Gary Schneider 37 EP TR-4 MC steward ----- Original Message ---- From: "emanteno at comcast.net" To: fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:14:38 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? You can run with Midwestern Council. Go to their website for more details. They run Blackhawk, Road America, and I think Gingerman and Autobahn. http://www.mcscc.org/ Irv -------------- Original message -------------- From: fpspitfire at comcast.net > Amici, > > In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises > many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is > coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F > production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this > is going to be accomplished. > > What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be > competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take > either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. > > What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car > running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... > > I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. > > Aaron Johnson > #87 HP Spitfire 1500 > Southern Illinois Region SCCA > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as emanteno at comcast.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as garygret at sbcglobal.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 13:24:33 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <265320.30020.qm@web53503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage groups? I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive against cars of similar displacement. I would not think that it would be impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is that something that could be possible? I know there are a good number of cars sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can enjoy racing with them. I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit current spec cars, anyone know if this is true? Or VRG? Aaron, maybe NASA will take us... !?! Of course all of this will be after the 2009 Runoffs..... ;) ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 11:43:17 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, REK46 at aol.com writes: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaxonracing at yahoo.com From ablake2 at austin.rr.com Sun Jun 1 14:59:37 2008 From: ablake2 at austin.rr.com (Greg & Alison Blake) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:59:37 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <182567.58610.qm@web58511.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 14:09:48 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:09:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage groups? >> Sort of but not exactly. However, in Vintage there are time lines and everyone that is here had to backdate to get in. We expect you guys to do the same and you are welcome. You just can't bring your current package. That wouldn't be right, now would it? We have simple and consistent rules that you must accept to play in our arena. I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive against cars of similar displacement. >> Apparently there aren't enough of you left to make that work for SCCA. I know that they have too many under subscribed classes. Run the numbers...what else can they do? As it is you get 2 ~ 15 minute sessions and a 30 minute race. At a typical vintage event you can get an hour a day and also run an enduro. I would not think that it would be impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is that something that could be possible? >> No. We don't have a shortage of complying cars. We are not dying on the vine. We are growing. We also have new "vintage" cars but they were built in the last 10-20 years. We don't want current spec 50 year old cars. That is why our name starts with a V (Vintage). I know there are a good number of cars sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can enjoy racing with them.>> I agree. Read our rules and do what all of our guys have done. If it was easy, you might already be here. It certainly must be easier than following that long trail of lollypops you guys have been following with SCCA. Well, the candyman just ran out of suckers. Did you leave a trail of corn to find your way back? I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit current spec cars, anyone know if this is true?>> HSR is not a vintage organization and they might actually have a place for you. Or VRG? >> Not a chance! This is a little tongue in cheek so no need to flame me back. We really will welcome you guys, but you will obviously have to make the changes. I would think it would be less than you guys spend on shocks and motors though. Jack Woehrle SVRA Technical Director **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From whimsey1 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 1 14:29:47 2008 From: whimsey1 at earthlink.net (jimdonick) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Friends: I'm not terribly close to it, being mostly a Vintage Guy, but I do know there were some issues at the runoffs last year between SCCA and Mazda. That led to some gossip that it would likely help NASA. I joined NASA last year and ran a National in Phoenix and the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. (Both in a Miata, I blush to admit) NASA is an up and comer with a growing National Organization. They are not as sophisticated in all regions yet as is SCCA but I can attest that the 25 Hours was a well run an event as I've ever taken part in. (It was also the adventure of a lifetime but that's a different story.) IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing with us here in the VSCCA. best to all jimdonick -----Original Message----- >From: Jay Creel >Sent: Jun 1, 2008 3:24 PM >To: JWoesvra at aol.com, REK46 at aol.com, fpspitfire at comcast.net, fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > >Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first >place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage >groups? >I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot >invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive >against cars of similar displacement. I would not think that it would be >impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car >of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that >way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be >affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is >that something that could be possible? I know there are a good number of cars >sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of >some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can >enjoy racing with them. >I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit >current spec cars, anyone know if this is true? Or VRG? >Aaron, maybe NASA >will take us... !?! >Of course all of this will be after the 2009 Runoffs..... >;) > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" >To: REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Sunday, >June 1, 2008 11:43:17 AM >Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > >In a >message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >REK46 at aol.com >writes: > >If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to >develop >a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit >cars....in a > >few years SCCA will be all Miata. > > >Are you sayin' we ain't >smart? > >Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just >not a >place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small >displacement >production cars. > >We aren't a parachute for current spec >drivers and cars who have been >squeezed out to float into without making >some changes. > >You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't >changin' just >for you. > >Jack Woehrle > > > >**************Get trade secrets for >amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as >jaxonracing at yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as whimsey1 at earthlink.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 15:51:55 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:51:55 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, Not to beat a dead horse, but "that's racin'". You do what the MAN says or you put it away. When you ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and takes your chances. What do they say about big dogs and porches? Never changes. Just the faces change. Jack Woehrle...since 1963! **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 16:22:48 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> hmm. you must be made of money. I didn't build my car to have it collect dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, sounds no different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules changed. I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because you are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. "that's racing" is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. Doesn't look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the input, I am sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. A simple NO, your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go about our day. Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the reference to "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. I am done with this. Thanks ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, Not to beat a dead horse, but "that's racin'". You do what the MAN says or you put it away. When you ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and takes your chances. What do they say about big dogs and porches? Never changes. Just the faces change. Jack Woehrle...since 1963! ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 16:32:28 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:32:28 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 6:23:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because you are the MAN The point is,our rules DON'T change! The MAN is not me...the MAN is your organization. Your MAN change YOUR rules. My rules don't change. Vintage is by definition, locked in time. I'm sorry to have to make it so blunt. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 17:05:37 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:05:37 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA refugees can race. The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to slide into the 70's, it kills it. Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a fun group. The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: > hmm. you must be made of money. > I didn't build my car to have it collect > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, > sounds no > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules > changed. I > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > because you > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. > "that's racing" > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > Doesn't > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the > input, I am > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > A simple NO, > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go > about our > day. > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the > reference to > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > I am done with this. Thanks > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > To: > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] > alternatives to the SCCA? > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > because of rules issues in the > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > Not to beat a dead horse, > but "that's racin'". > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > When you > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money > and takes > your chances. > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > Never changes. > Just the faces change. > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > ________________________________ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 17:26:36 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:26:36 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2008, at 4:05 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. > I've organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in > the inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage > racers--are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and > slicks came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had > lots of ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already > changed a great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often > anymore--they are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their > owners to have them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a > corner VS. their couple of million. Vintage organizations are > getting tougher on their rules, not easier. And it's for good > reason. I argued the other side long and hard--and I was wrong. It > doesn't help vintage racing to slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate > out front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored > against them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage > cars at home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and > money in it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit > these cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast > amounts of money being made in running club events that include > obsolete or low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team > Continental and the ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of > course you're on the track with some of the most misbegotten iron > you ever saw, but it's a fun group. > > The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people > complaining about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. > > On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 17:29:20 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Message-ID: <141634.77484.qm@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg: Please feel free to call me; I currently maintain this car for it's owner. I can give you all the in's and out's to it. Thanks- Ed Barnard Greg & Alison Blake wrote: Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 17:32:23 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Message-ID: <394648.58607.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg: Forgot to give you my number. 817-516-0899 (hm) 817-939-4419 (cell) -Ed- Greg & Alison Blake wrote: Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From rkramer3 at austin.rr.com Sun Jun 1 17:58:22 2008 From: rkramer3 at austin.rr.com (BOB KRAMER) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: <006b01c8c443$602a7fb0$0264a8c0@DadsComputer> Jack is right. Vintage rules are stuck in time and that is what make it great. Having said that there are some worries that vintage race organizations will suffer membership losses over time as the racer population ages. If NASA or some other yet to be formed post-historic race organizer puts together races for mid 70's and later cars we may lose racers. From the Triumph crowd there could be a great interest in racing later model Spitfires, TR6's and TR7's. Put them on the track with Celica's, early RX7's etc. and you would have a pretty interesting crowd. Bob Kramer rkramer3 at austin.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > In a message dated 6/1/2008 6:23:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > because > you are the MAN > > > The point is,our rules DON'T change! > > The MAN is not me...the MAN is your organization. Your MAN change YOUR > rules. > > My rules don't change. Vintage is by definition, locked in time. > > I'm sorry to have to make it so blunt. > > jw > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer3 at austin.rr.com From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:06:47 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:06:47 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 7:58:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkramer3 at austin.rr.com writes: >From the Triumph crowd there could be a great interest in racing later model Spitfires, TR6's and TR7's. Put them on the track with Celica's, early RX7's etc. and you would have a pretty interesting crowd. We actually accept all of those now. However, they have to be prepared to our standards which are reasonable, I think. The "period" is middle 70's. (Group 8). Prep level similar to SCCA Improved Touring. We just don't want fiberglass fenders, slicks, wide flares and black rubber air dams. Let those cars migrate to NASA which seems to have a great program. And...if anyone thinks I am to blunt...thanks for the compliment. And thanks to you guys who have supported what I have said...perhaps with more sensitivity. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:15:01 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:15:01 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 7:58:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkramer3 at austin.rr.com writes: there are some worries that vintage race organizations will suffer membership losses over time as the racer population ages. If NASA or some other yet to be formed post-historic race organizer puts together races for mid 70's and later cars we may lose racers. I think NASA serves a vital function in relieving the pressure on Vintage organizations to cave in. I doubt if anyone now Vintage Racing will migrate to NASA. It will be the other way if anything. The same caution came up when VDCA and later VRG started up. The powers to be looked at this as a threat. I said just wait and see. These organizations have stepped in and put on the races we couldn't or didn't want to do. They have been a windfall for us as we are not really an "entry level" organization. They provide certain benefits that we cannot and it has worked out very well. In short, if an organization puts on events that the core group of racers can relate to, that organization will prosper. Stable and sensible rules are vital to that concept. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From dave at microworks.net Sun Jun 1 18:27:53 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:27:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alfin Drums Message-ID: <20080602002705.HLFS23549.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> From one of the Local (Phoenix) Club members >From: "Craig" >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:42:10 GMT >To: dave at microworks.net > >Hello, >I am searching for a source for AFIN not ALFIN TR6 brake >drums. The drums have 4-5 fins that are ring shaped that run on the >outside of the drum. See attached photo. >Here are some UK websites with the drums but the exchange rate...... > >http://www.racemettleltd.co.uk/drum.html >http://www.racetorations.co.uk/catbrake.html >http://www.brakedrum.co.uk/ > >So does anyone know where I can procure 2 of these? >Craig Kenyon >____________________________________________________________ From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 18:30:08 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:30:08 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> Message-ID: No question, the point is that the guys who own the megabuck cars are keeping them in the garage, and that's sad. It doesn't make sense to change rules to make that even worse so that guys with good TR3's will have good reason not to race. The damage issue is a big deal with the handling difference of these cars, and it's the same thing a guy in a 59 Testarossa with it's limited brakes and skinny tires feels when Peyote stuffs inside him by outbraking him. I feel bad about that, and it would be nice to find a solution, but vintage racing really has already changed. Hard to un- ring that bell, but let's not find another to start banging on. I intentionally left the Mitty, off the all aluminum Tour last year, because racing with 70's cars with aero and slicks isn't that much fun. The carnage in my group the year I ran in it was astonishing-- worse than a SCCA race. I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore when they announced at the drivers meeting that cars with duct tape repairs had to have permanent repairs before the next event. Hmmm, what happened to suspensions for contact and the 13/13 rule. I have no problem remembering my first vintage race--I wandered into it by accident at PIR. GT40's, Testarossas, T70, 917, 908's, scarabs, tipo 61's, and all kinds of other great cars. These days you only see them at the Monterey Historics and big races like that. On Jun 1, 2008, at 5:07 PM, WILLIAM TOBIN wrote: > Hey Bill, maybe my $20k car is worth more to me than the $1M car is > to its > owner. We're all not rich out there; I've encountered a bunch of > Average > Joes out there who are great people. > Good point, though. > Thanks, Bill Tobin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Babcock" > To: "Jay Creel" > Cc: ; > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > >> Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. >> I've >> organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the >> inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good >> reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the >> requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA >> refugees can race. >> >> The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage >> racers-- >> are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks >> came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of >> ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a >> great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they >> are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have >> them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their >> couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their >> rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side >> long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to >> slide into the 70's, it kills it. >> >> Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out >> front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against >> them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at >> home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in >> it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these >> cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts >> of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or >> low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the >> ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the >> track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a >> fun group. >> >> The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining >> about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. >> >> On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: From S.Janzen at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 18:50:19 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:50:19 -0400 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c8c44a$a22ea8d0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> I look at this as a healthy exchange of viewpoints, and clearly there are different ones. I suspect if there are enough cars there is a class somewhere that you can run them. I do agree that the line needs to be drawn for Vintage, because it is a museum show and a race at the same time - if you look at the stuff that shows up at an SVRA event, you will know that Jack is pretty accomodating. Some of those Shelby Mustangs could never snick through the gears that quickly back in the day. Race cars do become obsolete. We just weren't around or foresighted enough to buy a $5,000 Maserati Birdcage, or the C- type Jag an old acquaintance of mine sold in the mid-seventies for less than $4,000. I don't think politics as much as supply and demand put the cars to pasture. Change is inevitable - no one kept the rules the same at Indy or F1. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Creel" To: ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > hmm. you must be made of money. > I didn't build my car to have it collect > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, sounds > no > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules changed. I > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because > you > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. "that's > racing" > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > Doesn't > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the input, I am > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > A simple NO, > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go about > our > day. > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the reference to > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > I am done with this. Thanks > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > To: > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] > alternatives to the SCCA? > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > because of rules issues in the > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > Not to beat a dead horse, > but "that's racin'". > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > When you > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and > takes > your chances. > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > Never changes. > Just the faces change. > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > ________________________________ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net From rocky at spitfire4.com Sun Jun 1 18:58:47 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:58:47 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> If "Vintage means vintage" translates to "nothing later than 1972 (or whenever) can run, ever," then there's a basic problem with that, as hinted below by the phrase "The grand old cars don't show up as often any more." I am in charge of the voting for the hall of fame of an organization of professional motorsports journalists. We discovered some time ago that our original division of pre-war and post-war (meaning WW II) had a problem. No problem when we started doing this in the '70s when pre-war was basically 1890-1940, a 50-year span, while post-war was 1945-1970, a 25-year span. So far, so good. But by the time we got to the '90s, we discovered the potential pre-war candidates were a finite group, and we'd elected most of the really good ones. While the post-war candidates were an ever-growing group now comprising nearly 50-years worth of drivers. The solution? We abandoned pre-war and post-war and defined the categories as "historic" and "modern" with the cutoff being 30 years ago. This meant that the cutoff moved forward every year, so today a star from 1978 is "historic era." and the historic era becomes infused with new candidates each year just as the modern era is. (The idea for this pattern actually comes from how the Baseball Hall does it, when a player transitions to being an "old timer"). So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? Especially since the idea behind vintage -- purportedly -- isn't about winning but just about putting the grand old cars on the track again? --Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Jay Creel" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've > organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the > inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- > are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks > came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of > ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a > great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they > are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have > them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their > couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their > rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side > long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to > slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out > front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against > them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at > home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in > it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these > cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts > of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or > low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the > ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the > track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a > fun group. From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 19:08:49 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:08:49 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? Surprise, it is! SVRA takes cars as late as 1998 (10 years from new) in certain groups if they are real race cars, prepared as they raced in their "period". If you have a 1988 whatever, and it is race prepared to that period, fine. What we don't want is 50 year old cars prepared to 2008 standards. We have no place for them. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 1 20:47:21 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:47:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901c8c45a$faf4ff40$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Since I don't race in the vintage events, I don't have a dog in the hunt but that gives me a different perspective looking in from the outside. I have for a long time been seeing exchanges concerning the various sanctioning bodies having different specs for the cars and because of that it is difficult to build a car that will fit in to all the groups. Maybe it is time that someone step up to the plate and figure out how to unite the various groups under a single governing body. It won't be easy since it will ultimately mean that some if not all cars will have to change to fit into the new rules, so a lot of negotiating will have to be done to accomplish the task. At the same time, it would be a good opportunity to address this new issue of bringing in additional classes that are being squeezed out of the SCCA. Just a thought! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:09 PM To: rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 21:55:26 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 03:55:26 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060220080355.7533.48436F2D000C8C4B00001D6D22120207840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> I didn't start this conversation to bring out a war. I don't vintage race because I want to race for the competition. If I go the vintage race route I'll just do lapping days with the local BMW club with my car exactly as it is. While I appreciate the arguments against vintage groups trying to find a place for SCCA cars that are being displaced to run, I think it's pretty short sighted to rule it out. What I have is a car that is too far gone to go back to a more "stock" form. I wouldn't want to. Driving the car on slicks is amazing. Driving for me isn't about how much track time in a weekend. I like a 20 minute practise session, 25 minute qualifying and 45 minute race. It looks like there are few options, but I will check out Midwest Council. aaron -------------- Original message -------------- From: JWoesvra at aol.com > In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rocky at spitfire4.com writes: > > So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then > why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? > > > > Surprise, it is! > > SVRA takes cars as late as 1998 (10 years from new) in certain groups if > they are real race cars, prepared as they raced in their "period". If you have a > 1988 whatever, and it is race prepared to that period, fine. > > What we don't want is 50 year old cars prepared to 2008 standards. We have > no place for them. > > Jack > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as fpspitfire at comcast.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 22:17:07 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <144821.52621.qm@web53510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Does that seem like it would ever be possible? (universal rule set) I consider myself an outsider as well, as I have never run vintage. I am not a fan of contact nor have I ever initiated it but I do like close door to door racing. So if anyone knows of an organization that would be interested in allowing current spec cars that may be orphaned by the SCCA, let me know. JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? ----- Original Message ---- From: Joe Curry To: JWoesvra at aol.com; rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:47:21 PM Subject: RE: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Since I don't race in the vintage events, I don't have a dog in the hunt but that gives me a different perspective looking in from the outside. I have for a long time been seeing exchanges concerning the various sanctioning bodies having different specs for the cars and because of that it is difficult to build a car that will fit in to all the groups. Maybe it is time that someone step up to the plate and figure out how to unite the various groups under a single governing body. It won't be easy since it will ultimately mean that some if not all cars will have to change to fit into the new rules, so a lot of negotiating will have to be done to accomplish the task. At the same time, it would be a good opportunity to address this new issue of bringing in additional classes that are being squeezed out of the SCCA. Just a thought! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:09 PM To: rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? From william.tobin3 at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 18:07:41 2008 From: william.tobin3 at verizon.net (WILLIAM TOBIN) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:07:41 -0400 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> Hey Bill, maybe my $20k car is worth more to me than the $1M car is to its owner. We're all not rich out there; I've encountered a bunch of Average Joes out there who are great people. Good point, though. Thanks, Bill Tobin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Jay Creel" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've > organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the > inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- > are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks > came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of > ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a > great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they > are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have > them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their > couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their > rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side > long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to > slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out > front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against > them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at > home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in > it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these > cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts > of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or > low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the > ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the > track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a > fun group. > > The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining > about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. > > On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: > > > hmm. you must be made of money. > > I didn't build my car to have it collect > > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, > > sounds no > > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules > > changed. I > > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > > because you > > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. > > "that's racing" > > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > > Doesn't > > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the > > input, I am > > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > > A simple NO, > > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go > > about our > > day. > > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the > > reference to > > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > > I am done with this. Thanks > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > > To: > > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > > fot at autox.team.net > > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Fot] > > alternatives to the SCCA? > > > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > because of rules issues in the > > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > > Not to beat a dead horse, > > but "that's racin'". > > > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > > > When you > > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money > > and takes > > your chances. > > > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > > > Never changes. > > Just the faces change. > > > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Babcock & Jenkins > Billb at bnj.com > 503.936.7660 > www.bnj.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as william.tobin3 at verizon.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 00:29:12 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:29:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Message-ID: <6E762951-B989-4882-A9C4-C024422E1931@bnj.com> I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden age and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the 20 year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has white hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy in an old car. On Jun 1, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Rocky Entriken wrote: > If "Vintage means vintage" translates to "nothing later than 1972 > (or whenever) can run, ever," then there's a basic problem with > that, as hinted below by the phrase "The grand old cars don't show > up as often any more." > > I am in charge of the voting for the hall of fame of an organization > of professional motorsports journalists. We discovered some time ago > that our original division of pre-war and post-war (meaning WW II) > had a problem. No problem when we started doing this in the '70s > when pre-war was basically 1890-1940, a 50-year span, while post-war > was 1945-1970, a 25-year span. So far, so good. > > But by the time we got to the '90s, we discovered the potential pre- > war candidates were a finite group, and we'd elected most of the > really good ones. While the post-war candidates were an ever-growing > group now comprising nearly 50-years worth of drivers. > > The solution? We abandoned pre-war and post-war and defined the > categories as "historic" and "modern" with the cutoff being 30 years > ago. This meant that the cutoff moved forward every year, so today a > star from 1978 is "historic era." and the historic era becomes > infused with new candidates each year just as the modern era is. > (The idea for this pattern actually comes from how the Baseball Hall > does it, when a player transitions to being an "old timer"). > > So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was > vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to > 1983 specs -- vintage? > > Especially since the idea behind vintage -- purportedly -- isn't > about winning but just about putting the grand old cars on the track > again? > > --Rocky Entriken > > -- From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 06:42:21 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:42:21 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from New Zeland and the UK. Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any paint though! Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 2 08:50:34 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, jimdonick wrote: [stuff deleted] > IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the > production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA > organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could > very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty > and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing > with us here in the VSCCA. ... meanwhile, NASCAR and the close relatives lick thier chops... The problem with the production car classes in SCCA is that the numbers are down. Why is that? I have no idea. But it's probably because there's a limited number of participants all trying to compete in expanding classes. Spec this and Spec that are one factor. But if they can get 40+ SM cars at the runoffs and barely get 20 HP cars (and then a couple don't even take the green at the race!), there's something wrong with the weaker class. So, you get two options - talk or walk. Walking is easy. Talking is a lot harder because you wind up trying to placate folks that are competitive and know what they want. You make a new rule set and you wind up being the bad guy if that new set doesn't align with the competitive guy's vision. And if that person is a leader (highly likely) they can rallye folks behind them (for example: XXXX org is full of idiots or whatever). Is there an easy solution? NO. Absolutely NO. Is forming a new organiztion the right thing to do? I'm not so sure. Of the folks that I've talked to that do the NASA thing (for example), 100% of them also run SCCA. How is DIVIDING the same people between two organiztions a good thing? Same thing goes for classes. If there's 100 active Sports Racers nationally, how is adding a Spec sports racer to the mix going to help? Does everyone chuck thier car and start over? NO. But this is a Triumphs list. We should talk about Triumphs. Where we play with them is up to us individually. Period, the end. > best to all > jimdonick Regards, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 09:24:58 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:24:58 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Hillclimb and Autocross project car for sale $750 Message-ID: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Sorry to bomb the list, but for anyone who is interested, here's the link to a GT6 $750 project - not worth listing on ebay given what they charge for cars these days! Car is near Philadelphia. http://www.freewebs.com/sdjanzen/ From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 09:41:25 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:41:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01BD36CD-30F7-47D6-B347-A00739BCF555@bnj.com> Shit does indeed happen, and I'm still down in my shop every day, fixing the result. Paint does get swapped, but it's only one way. I always smile at people who think vintage racing isn't racing. I've done just about every form of racing I can think of, and they're all the same--at least they are the same for me. It's just the ramifications of the screw ups that change. On Jun 2, 2008, at 5:42 AM, JWoesvra at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com > writes: > JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec > cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... > Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? > Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good > number of cars to participate? > Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. > > When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like > to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an > all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph > racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event > like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. > > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where > they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 > Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. > > In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from > New Zeland and the UK. > > Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive > and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car > polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. > You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. > However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any > paint though! > > Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars > that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have > folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good > car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. > > Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec > drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. > > This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and > truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. > > Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 09:53:48 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:53:48 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <133B474B-2BF9-4D91-AD98-0F69F1A031E6@bnj.com> Shit does indeed happen, and I'm still down in my shop every day, fixing the result. Paint does get swapped, but it's only one way. I always smile at people who think vintage racing isn't racing. I've done just about every form of racing I can think of, and they're all the same--at least they are the same for me. It's just the ramifications of the screw ups that change. On Jun 2, 2008, at 5:42 AM, JWoesvra at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com > writes: > JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec > cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... > Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? > Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good > number of cars to participate? > Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. > > When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like > to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an > all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph > racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event > like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. > > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where > they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 > Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. > > In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from > New Zeland and the UK. > > Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive > and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car > polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. > You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. > However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any > paint though! > > Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars > that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have > folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good > car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. > > Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec > drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. > > This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and > truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. > > Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:09:20 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:09:20 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 06/01/2008 2:49:41 PM Central Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first > place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage > groups? > To some degree, but particularly with older vintage groups like the VSCCA out east they were ALWAYS vintage even before SCCA fell out of favor with some racers. The older vintage groups were made up mostly of 'collectors' who had old race cars (many historically significant) who wanted to do more with them than polish them. They wanted an opportunity to drive them at speed. But as we all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. It wasn't long before vintage events became less a high speed parade and more a race. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spreiss at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 19:08:54 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:08:54 +1100 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get the blood pumping. Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? Steve P. spreiss at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Lang" To: "jimdonick" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, jimdonick wrote: > > [stuff deleted] > > > IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the > > production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA > > organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could > > very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty > > and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing > > with us here in the VSCCA. > > ... meanwhile, NASCAR and the close relatives lick thier chops... > > The problem with the production car classes in SCCA is that the numbers > are down. Why is that? I have no idea. But it's probably because there's a > limited number of participants all trying to compete in expanding classes. > Spec this and Spec that are one factor. But if they can get 40+ SM cars at > the runoffs and barely get 20 HP cars (and then a couple don't even take > the green at the race!), there's something wrong with the weaker class. > > So, you get two options - talk or walk. Walking is easy. Talking is a lot > harder because you wind up trying to placate folks that are competitive > and know what they want. You make a new rule set and you wind up being the > bad guy if that new set doesn't align with the competitive guy's vision. > And if that person is a leader (highly likely) they can rallye folks > behind them (for example: XXXX org is full of idiots or whatever). > > Is there an easy solution? NO. Absolutely NO. Is forming a new organiztion > the right thing to do? I'm not so sure. Of the folks that I've talked to > that do the NASA thing (for example), 100% of them also run SCCA. How is > DIVIDING the same people between two organiztions a good thing? Same thing > goes for classes. If there's 100 active Sports Racers nationally, how is > adding a Spec sports racer to the mix going to help? Does everyone chuck > thier car and start over? NO. > > But this is a Triumphs list. We should talk about Triumphs. Where we play > with them is up to us individually. Period, the end. > > > best to all > > jimdonick > > Regards, > rml > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent > Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! > Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From spreiss at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 19:11:38 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:11:38 +1100 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: <003e01c8c44d$9c65c3e0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > In a message dated 06/01/2008 2:49:41 PM Central Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > > > Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first > > place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage > > groups? > > > > To some degree, but particularly with older vintage groups like the VSCCA out > east they were ALWAYS vintage even before SCCA fell out of favor with some > racers. The older vintage groups were made up mostly of 'collectors' who had > old race cars (many historically significant) who wanted to do more with them > than polish them. They wanted an opportunity to drive them at speed. But as we > all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. It wasn't long > before vintage events became less a high speed parade and more a race. > > Bill Dentinger Boys will be boys. S.P. > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& > ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 2 10:23:45 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:23:45 -0500 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 Message-ID: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> A few weeks ago I asked for advice regarding replacing the pinion seal on my street TR6. Comments were that Viton would have a longer life when subjected to the additives in differential lube. I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment type made from so,e sort of felt. Before I wrestle this thing back together, has anyone on the list actually found a Viton seal for this application? Or, has someone recently ordered a seal of modern construction from one of the aftermarket companies? uncle jack From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:25:00 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:25:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:09:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BillDentin at aol.com writes: But as we all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. Put what where? jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From sgroh1 at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 10:33:03 2008 From: sgroh1 at comcast.net (Steven Groh) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:33:03 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Groh" To: "Steven Groh" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:28 PM Subject: Fw: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Groh" > To: "Robert Lang" ; "jimdonick" > > Cc: > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > >>I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller classes >>at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda subsidization. Times >>have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't change. >>And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, my dad >>was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, the >>Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula Fords, >>graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the writing >>on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down to a >>not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec conversion so I >>could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to SCCA, >>or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right one. I >>chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I built >>my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but to me, it >>was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a family >>event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a blessing >>that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a family. >>Some things you just can't put a price on. >> >> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA isn't one >> of them in my humble opinion. >> >> Steve Groh >> 63 Spitfire >> SVRA 393 >> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> >>> Fot mailing list >>> Fot at autox.team.net >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >>> >>> You are subscribed as sgroh1 at comcast.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 10:34:33 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:34:33 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA?-----now TRs at Watkins Glen Message-ID: FOT, I hope everyone picked up on Jack's forecast on the possible entries at The Glen. About 90 days away..... Joe Alexander ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where they > can > run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 Alfas and 150 MG's > > a few years ago. Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. JW ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------- From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:38:21 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:38:21 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:33:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sgroh1 at comcast.net writes: >> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA isn't one >> of them in my humble opinion. Thanks Steve.....looking forward to Mid-Ohio. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 10:58:08 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:58:08 EDT Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 Message-ID: Jack, One time I could only find a single lip seal. The seal housing was sized so I could put two single lip seals in tandem.....Two Chicago Rawhides in tandem might do it. JoeAlexander > I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, > Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a > 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago > Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I > installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment > type made from so,e sort of felt. > From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 10:59:22 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:59:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> Message-ID: <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> Yes and no. I think SCCA has become business-like, and that's nothing but good IMNSHO. As far as supersession is concerned, that's driven by US not them. When I bought my Radical and went DSR racing it was the hot ticket. Within a month there were five of them to compete against in the Northwest, and if you didn't have a Radical in DSR the best you could hope for was fifth--unless a Radical broke or didn't show. I won the Northwest championship in 2003. DSR was suddenly a hot class and people started paying attention to it. The Stohr hit the track. A guy who was lucky to get third in his Radical bought one and took three seconds off my best PIR time-- 1:17:something. Hot shoes in Stohr DSRs can do under 1:10, which is Formula Atlantic territory and mid-pack for the CART racers. I like wings and slicks racing, but not as much as racing Peyote. I damned sure wasn't going to circulate behind a pack of Stohrs, and I didn't care to spend 60K every two years in a "budget" race class so I sold my Radical and concentrated on Vintage. Lost the requisite $20K -- hmmm, more like 30. So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider them too dumb to live. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Steven Groh wrote: >> >>> I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller >>> classes >>> at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>> infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda >>> subsidization. Times >>> have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't >>> change. >>> And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, >>> my dad >>> was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, >>> the >>> Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula >>> Fords, >>> graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the >>> writing >>> on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down >>> to a >>> not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec >>> conversion so I >>> could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to >>> SCCA, >>> or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>> decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right >>> one. I >>> chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>> driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I >>> built >>> my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>> couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but >>> to me, it >>> was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a >>> family >>> event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a >>> blessing >>> that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a >>> family. >>> Some things you just can't put a price on. >>> >>> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA >>> isn't one >>> of them in my humble opinion. >>> >>> Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 11:01:55 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:01:55 -0700 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98718213-A712-4B5F-A6D3-EE99BE9783FB@bnj.com> I always put in two seals. Not rawhide, just whatever narrow seal I can find. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:58 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: > Jack, > > One time I could only find a single lip seal. The seal housing was > sized so > I could put two single lip seals in tandem.....Two Chicago Rawhides > in tandem > might do it. > > JoeAlexander > > >> I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, >> Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a >> 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago >> Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I >> installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment >> type made from so,e sort of felt. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From tlizzard at msn.com Mon Jun 2 11:04:42 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:04:42 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: Gents, The SCCA has been in constant flux regarding classes since it's inception. There is nothing new here. When was the last race for B Sedan?. A Sports Racer? C Modified, or one many won't recall, Spec VW Bug? SCCA has always been about what's current, even though it may not seem so. When I first joined 36 years ago, Production cars were the bread and butter of the racing program. Why? Because there were still a lot of manufacturers selling sports cars, and selling them in good numbers as well. That is no longer the case. Without manufacturer support the SCCA would have dried up a long time ago. Just my take on it. Now, as to the cars we know and love. Can you really expect to continue development on a car that was last produced over 30 year ago? As much as I love my old proper British sports cars, it is just not realistic to be competitive against modern designs with equal prep rules. A brand new MGB (for example) street car would be beaten up one side and down the other by a new Miata street car. Why expect different from competetion prepped cars? And the Miata will be far less expensive I the long run to keep running, hence their (as well as others) ascendance in SCCA racing. I have a personal friend in a similar fix. He is a long time SCCA racer in the midwest who campaigns a Lotus Elan. New rules have effectively made the car obsolete. I keep trying to get him to cut the flairs off and go vintage racing. I know he would have a great time, but old habits die hard I guess. It's a real problem, but not one without choices. I wish all of you the best. Terry Stetler From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 2 11:11:46 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Steven Preiss wrote: > I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get > the blood pumping. Exactly. That's my "plan", as it were. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? Why yes, I do. My TR6 is basically prepared to the '72 SCCA GCR except that my "cage" ties the front and rear of the car. Everything else was done so it can be reversed to STOCK if I wanted to sell the car as a vintage car. So, I currently run glass fenders, I can remove them and install steel in about one hour and be completely legal. Wait - the bonnet takes a bit more time. Make that 3 hours, tops. FWIW, SCCA does not use the term Solo 2 anymore. It's just Solo. > Steve P. > spreiss at verizon.net regards, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gaf3 at charter.net Mon Jun 2 11:29:09 2008 From: gaf3 at charter.net (Glenn Franco) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:29:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 In-Reply-To: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <48442DE5.6020501@charter.net> Try a National 47048N Not sure if its Viton but it should last longer than the leather seals that leak immediately after refilling with gear lube. Just my 2 cents worth Glenn Franco Spit racer under construction and leaking TR's with leather pinion seals and one that's not (replaced with a rubber lip seal) Jack W. Drews wrote: > A few weeks ago I asked for advice regarding replacing the pinion > seal on my street TR6. Comments were that Viton would have a longer > life when subjected to the additives in differential lube. > > I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, > Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a > 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago > Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I > installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment > type made from so,e sort of felt. > > Before I wrestle this thing back together, has anyone on the list > actually found a Viton seal for this application? Or, has someone > recently ordered a seal of modern construction from one of the > aftermarket companies? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as gaf3 at charter.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 11:36:35 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:36:35 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Ambro 001 In-Reply-To: <011501c8b9eb$7bdd6860$3a16c548@RW> References: <88193492-4EE7-4BA9-8A67-7B7647E656EC@bnj.com> <011501c8b9eb$7bdd6860$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <53FD4D1D-EBE6-4A61-BB7E-6672DEDE3F44@bnj.com> I haven't mentioned this previously since i didn't have the car in hand, but I've purchased the Ambro 001, Peyote's little brother, from Doug Karon. It's being delivered this week. I can't wait. I will still drive Peyote most of the time, but it will be nice to have an alternative, and it's such a pretty car. Maybe I can figure out some way to turn Nero (the Airstream) into a stacker. I suspect that would REALLY be asking for the thing to break in half somewhere on a dark lonely highway. It's really a privilege to have both of Bill Ame's cars. Diane likes the fact that it has a passenger seat. She's tired of sitting on the fuel cell. . [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F2_ambro%25202%2520008.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F3_ambro%2520001.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F4_ambro%25202%2520001.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F5_ambro%25202%2520002.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F6_ambro%25202%2520004.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F7_ambro%25202%2520005.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F8_ambro%25202%2520007.jpg] From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 12:33:40 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:33:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Ambro 001 In-Reply-To: <130237.29240.qm@web81705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <130237.29240.qm@web81705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <180E1FDA-1607-4117-B5BF-2431BD8989DB@bnj.com> Peyote On Jun 2, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > Cool! > > Which one will you bring to the Glen? > > Dennis > > > Bill Babcock wrote: > I haven't mentioned this previously since i didn't have the car in > hand, but I've purchased the Ambro 001, Peyote's little brother, from > Doug Karon. It's being delivered this week. I can't wait. I will still > drive Peyote most of the time, but it will be nice to have an > alternative, and it's such a pretty car. Maybe I can figure out some > way to turn Nero (the Airstream) into a stacker. I suspect that would > REALLY be asking for the thing to break in half somewhere on a dark > lonely highway. > > It's really a privilege to have both of Bill Ame's cars. Diane likes > the fact that it has a passenger seat. She's tired of sitting on the > fuel cell. > > . > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F2_ambro%25202%2520008.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F3_ambro%2520001.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F4_ambro%25202%2520001.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F5_ambro%25202%2520002.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F6_ambro%25202%2520004.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F7_ambro%25202%2520005.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F8_ambro%25202%2520007.jpg] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as yellow-green at sbcglobal.net > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 2 13:51:30 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:51:30 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. The current ones don't look bad, but they are almost as old as I am. What's the best thing to do - put in new stock rubber ones and gamble that the rubber parts might be good for a change, or go to the new polyurethane mounts which would seem to me to be a harsher mount but which Moss says tends to prevent breakage of the frame brackets -- what's the wisdom of the list on this one? uncle jack From srcypher at mac.com Mon Jun 2 15:14:18 2008 From: srcypher at mac.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:14:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> Message-ID: <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> It comes from the inconsistency in the approach laid out, inconsistency in application of the rules. 1 strong national classes (#11) combined #22 into 1 class; 1 class (#16) kept by itself because it can't be combined with anything else, and some even question if its consistent with SCCA stated philosophy. SCCA has a pre-established method to keeping classes; overall participation in that class; once it fails to meet the thresholds set, it is considered for combination and consolidation. If SCCA hadn't demonstrated that certain classes get to stay national, despite not making the cutoff (GT3), or if SCCA was making way for a tuner class, a drifter class, or something that is clearly popular, would clearly create draw, and/or demonstrated "business saavy" to generate income, I would be hard pressed to argue theirm move Such does not appear to be the case. They are doing this why? I Quote: "In addition, opportunities for new classes such as those using biofuels and hydro- gen energy sources must be made possible for the future." I can't even begin to comment on that one. Most of the prod racers I've noticed have tended to say, if SCCA wanted 21 classes, why not just make the run-off cut-off 21 instead of 23/24 and be done with it? HP either ponies up with participation or gets trampled, that simple. I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts. Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider them too dumb to live. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Steven Groh wrote: >> >>> I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller >>> classes >>> at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>> infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda >>> subsidization. Times >>> have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't >>> change. >>> And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, >>> my dad >>> was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, >>> the >>> Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula >>> Fords, >>> graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the >>> writing >>> on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down >>> to a >>> not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec >>> conversion so I >>> could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to >>> SCCA, >>> or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>> decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right >>> one. I >>> chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>> driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I >>> built >>> my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>> couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but >>> to me, it >>> was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a >>> family >>> event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a >>> blessing >>> that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a >>> family. >>> Some things you just can't put a price on. >>> >>> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA >>> isn't one >>> of them in my humble opinion. >>> >>> Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as srcypher at mac.com From vintage.racer at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 15:35:29 2008 From: vintage.racer at comcast.net (Gary Horstkorta) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:35:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA Message-ID: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Hello: Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit into the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. I've raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by a Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if they don't already have a program like this. Gary 1962 TR4 1969 TR6 1969 Triumph Bonneville From klynch_6 at msn.com Mon Jun 2 16:01:24 2008 From: klynch_6 at msn.com (KEVIN LYNCH) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:01:24 -0600 Subject: [Fot] 13" Minilites Message-ID: Good afternoon! I was wondering if someone might have a pair of M-lites for the GT6? (3 3/4") I need to check b-space however. Thanks much, Kev Lynch From norlinengineering at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 16:29:05 2008 From: norlinengineering at comcast.net (Norlin Engineering) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:29:05 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA In-Reply-To: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000201c8c500$128224d0$020ba8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> Another option. Oregon Region has a similar alternative where Patty & I race our Spitfire. We do not have as many cars as SF Region, so we run only one or two groups, but we have a group at every regional race. There's also a North Pacific Vintage Championship consisting of two races each in SF, Oregon and NW Regions. Oregon's rules are simple, only three pages: http://www.oregonscca.com/media-library/documents/vintage/2008vintagesupps.p df It's my understanding that next year the cutoff year will go to a rolling 25 years old. You can even ask for a waiver to run slicks. This whole thing started several years ago as a way to get more entries and to get the older cars back on the track. If your SCCA region is in need of entries, you might suggest this as Gary said in his response. Jim -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+norlinengineering=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+norlinengineering=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Gary Horstkorta Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:35 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA Hello: Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit into the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. I've raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by a Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if they don't already have a program like this. Gary 1962 TR4 1969 TR6 1969 Triumph Bonneville Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as norlinengineering at comcast.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 17:08:31 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA In-Reply-To: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> References: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yup, there's that. I run the SCCA vintage class fairly often, usually there's good racing to be had. Nearly anything qualifies--they even took my cheater TR3, which has about as much to do with a TR3 as a Nascar truck does. On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:35 PM, Gary Horstkorta wrote: > Hello: > > > > Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race > in a > "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a > series > which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ > for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not > fit into > the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, > SOVERN, > VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA > Vintage. I've > raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown > off by a > Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite > competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always > find > someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort > of > environment. This might be worth investigating in your local > regions if > they don't already have a program like this. > > > > Gary > > > > 1962 TR4 > > 1969 TR6 > > 1969 Triumph Bonneville > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 17:20:46 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:20:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> Message-ID: <94D3FA3E-5D27-4913-B30E-D48BEA2B2552@bnj.com> It's funny, I was just reading a great article on Web standards that made me realize how impossible it is to run an organization in a manner that pleases even a relatively small part of the community that forms around it. Rules are inherently arbitrary or they are not understandable. By that I mean, to take up all the possible definitions of even the simplest thing you must describe it to an absurd degree, and you have to know the future. Here's the article. I'm certain that this isn't a trivial thing, and it's not specific to any issue. It's why Muslim fundamentalists embrace terrorism, why I can't buy a cell phone without buying new chargers, why it's taking me two hours to build a transmission mount for Peyote., Well, maybe not that. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > It comes from the inconsistency in the approach laid out, > inconsistency in application of the rules. 1 strong national > classes (#11) combined #22 into 1 class; 1 class (#16) kept by > itself because it can't be combined with anything else, and some > even question if its consistent with SCCA stated philosophy. > > SCCA has a pre-established method to keeping classes; overall > participation in that class; once it fails to meet the thresholds > set, it is considered for combination and consolidation. > > If SCCA hadn't demonstrated that certain classes get to stay > national, despite not making the cutoff (GT3), or if SCCA was making > way for a tuner class, a drifter class, or something that is clearly > popular, would clearly create draw, and/or demonstrated "business > saavy" to generate income, I would be hard pressed to argue theirm > move > > Such does not appear to be the case. They are doing this why? I > Quote: "In addition, opportunities for new classes such as those > using biofuels and hydro- gen energy sources must be made possible > for the future." I can't even begin to comment on that one. > > Most of the prod racers I've noticed have tended to say, if SCCA > wanted 21 classes, why not just make the run-off cut-off 21 instead > of 23/24 and be done with it? HP either ponies up with > participation or gets trampled, that simple. > > I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in > vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go > away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts. > > Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? > > > Thanks > > -Scott Cypher > spitfireracer at xsmail.com > SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 > Reading, PA > http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher > > > > On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > > > So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't > pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, > costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider > them too dumb to live. From budscars at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 18:01:49 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:01:49 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA References: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <012a01c8c50d$05f13640$0202a8c0@Bud> I'm with Gary on this...The SCCA vintage race that I ran last year at Laguna seca was really fun..even though I blew an engine.......The guy who heads up SCCA vintage out here..Bill Godwin..is very accomodating, and a pleasure to deal with Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Horstkorta" To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA > Hello: > > > > Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a > "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series > which they classify as vintage ( see > www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ > for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit > into > the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, > VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. > I've > raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by > a > Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite > competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find > someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of > environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if > they don't already have a program like this. > > > > Gary > > > > 1962 TR4 > > 1969 TR6 > > 1969 Triumph Bonneville > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 19:18:28 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:18:28 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 5:22:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, srcypher at mac.com writes: I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts.>> Wear a cup! Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher I do, but you can actually get PCS and GCR at SOVREN's website. However, PCS/GCR have some loopholes that are not apparent as they were written without clairvoyance. Since you are in the East you will most likely race with someone who follows SVRA rules. (SVRA, VRG, VDCA). Hear are the Spitfire Supplemental Regulations as well as the Group 1 Regulations. As you can see, we have HP, GP, FP, all of which are very healthy and not going away in the near future. I can't imagine that you cannot make your car vintage legal over the winter. Once in, you'll never look back. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of gr1list2008.pdf] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of TR-Spitfire-08.pdf] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of 2008 Rules & Regs-2.pdf] From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Mon Jun 2 19:33:12 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:33:12 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm vintage legal. Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need any more. Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not ready to jump ship, yet... If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice phrase or witticism (sp?) Thanks -S From budscars at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 20:18:12 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:18:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Message-ID: <015001c8c520$134bf6f0$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello Gang.......We are all very fortunate/made the right decisions/live our souls/etc...We are part of the Racing Family......There just Ain't no sport like this.....whether we agree or disagree with each other...I will bet my bottom dollar....That the Racing Family will come through in a crunch.. there will be Huge support ...if any of us are in a jam... 40+ years of being part of racing has taught me this... Have a Great evening Gang Racer Bud....Spitfire #21 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Cypher" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? > Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares > and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm > vintage legal. > > Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the > change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can > the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then > say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need > any more. > > Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the > straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough > experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle > a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, > so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not > ready to jump ship, yet... > > If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 > prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak > up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I > respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice > phrase or witticism (sp?) > > Thanks > > -S > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From mark at bradakis.com Mon Jun 2 20:29:27 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:29:27 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing plates for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly mounts. On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from his stage name, Bo Diddley. Sigh. mjb., From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 20:29:37 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 22:29:37 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: <3BD7914C.5EA1027D.00159EE9@cs.com> Mark J Bradakis wrote: >I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs >of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing plates >for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards >increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly mounts. > >On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away >Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to >any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from >his stage name, Bo Diddley. > >Sigh. > >mjb., >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From Herald948 at aol.com Mon Jun 2 20:59:36 2008 From: Herald948 at aol.com (Herald948 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:59:36 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 10:25:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark at bradakis.com writes: On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from his stage name, Bo Diddley. ==AM== Means everything to me, as it does/did for Rock and Roll in general...and for folks like the Beatles, Stones, Yardbirds, U2 and about a zillion other performers since. I remember seeing him at an early 1970s Rock and Roll "Revival" concert, back the others on the bill were mostly nostalgia acts. Not Bo! Man, who's left in original guitar legends? Chuck Berry and Les Paul.... bomp bomp-bomp bomp-bomp --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) The Vintage Triumph Register's Triumph 10, Herald and Sports 6 vehicle consultant _http://www.vtr.org_ (http://www.vtr.org/) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database:_ http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 21:44:02 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:44:02 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> References: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <810B4E42-FE6F-4708-92DD-75708FA87C2D@bnj.com> Sigh indeed. On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs > of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing > plates > for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards > increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly > mounts. > > On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away > Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to > any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from > his stage name, Bo Diddley. > > Sigh. > > mjb., > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From GRMTim at aol.com Mon Jun 2 21:47:13 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:47:13 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the street, I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with that car and very often someone stops me and tells me the story about how their, brother, mom, cousin etc. had one and how much they remember the beautiful lines of that car and how well it drove. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/08 2:48:09 AM, Billb at bnj.com writes: > I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who > really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, > but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden age > and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if > drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the 20 > year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has white > hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy in > an old car. > > ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From GRMTim at aol.com Mon Jun 2 21:53:42 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:53:42 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/08 12:13:41 PM, spreiss at verizon.net writes: > I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get > the blood pumping. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? > I've done that too. It is a lot of fun, but can be a bit frustrating too. The Solo II classes have (for the most part) passed the old cars by. Few if any are competitive. It used to be that every year a classic took one class or another at the Solo II Nats, but not much anymore. The news cars have gotten so good and it is so hard, especially in Stock class, to find all the fiddly bits to make an old car legal. Still, I can occassionally surprise a few people (most recently my 14 year old son) with just how capable a Spitfire still is. I also ran my TR3 race car on an autocross course as recently as last Tuesday and turned times close to a modified new MINI. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 21:54:19 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:54:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8643B3DF-1223-4F47-ADEE-20984D20C577@bnj.com> Yeah, but they're old. Don't get me wrong. I like 240Z's, and I remember firsthand when every hairdresser and "executive assistant" had one. I'm amazed Dave Talbot hasn't chimed in here with some kind of a roar since he raced the things back when he had hair. I've got an old Maserati Mistral, and everyone thinks it's a 240Z. They are so very wrong. You can actually go somewhere and return if you have a 240Z. You can't do that with a Mistral. On Jun 2, 2008, at 8:47 PM, GRMTim at aol.com wrote: > Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the > street, I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with > that car and very often someone stops me and tells me the story > about how their, brother, mom, cousin etc. had one and how much they > remember the beautiful lines of that car and how well it drove. > > Tim Suddard > Publisher; Classic Motorsports > and Grassroots Motorsports magazines > www.classicmotorsports.net > www.grassrootsmotorsports.com > Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 > > > In a message dated 6/2/08 2:48:09 AM, Billb at bnj.com writes: > > >> I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who >> really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, >> but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden >> age >> and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if >> drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the >> 20 >> year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has >> white >> hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy >> in >> an old car. >> > > > > > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From lang at isis.mit.edu Tue Jun 3 05:26:38 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 GRMTim at aol.com wrote: > Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the street, > I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with that car and very > often someone stops me and tells me the story about how their, brother, mom, > cousin etc. had one and how much they remember the beautiful lines of that car > and > how well it drove. That's just 'cause er so young. :-) > Tim Suddard > Publisher; Classic Motorsports > and Grassroots Motorsports magazines > www.classicmotorsports.net > www.grassrootsmotorsports.com > Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JWoesvra at aol.com Tue Jun 3 06:24:54 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:24:54 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into their fold. Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From GRMTim at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:24:40 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:24:40 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: > Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting > modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR > has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep > interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further > differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into > their fold. > > Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 3 08:33:23 2008 From: dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net (dale oesterle) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163829.25570.qm@web82202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just a note of appreciation to Jack. He does a great job at SVRA. Have been a member of four or five vintage organizations other than SVRA (and SCCA; I race a spec Miata) and seen it all. SVRA, with Jack, does well. GRMTim at aol.com wrote: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: > Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting > modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR > has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep > interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further > differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into > their fold. > > Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:37:00 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:37:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: In a message dated 6/3/2008 10:25:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim at aol.com writes: You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. I can handle the abuse that my rantings create. If I can stop a speeding locomotive then a bus won't be that difficult. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Lunkercars at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 10:27:58 2008 From: Lunkercars at earthlink.net (Greg "Lunker" Hilyer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:27:58 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Message-ID: <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> Scott, I'm sure we're quite a ways from you - Albuquerque is a long ways from most anywhere, but Southwest Motorsport [swms.org] would welcome you and your car. Our club motto is "a group for every driver, a class for every car". Greg Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares > and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm > vintage legal. > > Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the > change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can > the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then > say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need > any more. > > Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the > straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough > experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle > a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, > so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not > ready to jump ship, yet... > > If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 > prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak > up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I > respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice > phrase or witticism (sp?) > > Thanks > > -S > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as lunkercars at earthlink.net From rocky at spitfire4.com Tue Jun 3 10:48:00 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:48:00 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <002101c8c599$96290d00$6601a8c0@S1099895562> G Prepared in Solo (not Solo 2 any more since Solo 1 went under the clubrace banner and became PDX and time trials). GP is mostly LBCs and their ilk, cars that used to be D prep until the Miatas and MR2s came in and rendered us all uncompetitive. Burt we very much need more in GP or this class will disappear from "lack of interest." If your car would fit in GP, come play with us. Please! --Rocky Entriken '64 Spitfire ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Preiss" To: "Robert Lang" Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? >I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and > get > the blood pumping. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? > Steve P. > spreiss at verizon.net From wgrosenbach at juno.com Tue Jun 3 11:10:23 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:10:23 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <20080603.111025.3988.1.wgrosenbach@juno.com> The Rocky Mountain Region of the National Auto Sports Association, has recently acquired the assets of Colorado's alternative vintage racing organization, Nostalgia Racing, Inc. They are not including all vintage cars in all events at this time, they have too many groups to deal with already. They are not embracing much of the Vintage Motorsports Council, practices or procedures. The date that they got from the NRI deal was a traditional vintage race weekend at Pueblo Motorsports Park. They accepted both open & closed wheel vintage cars at that event. There were around 38 closed wheel cars that included some Vintage Spirit Spec Miata cars, which NRI had been accepting & promoting the past few years. Open wheel was less well subscribed and for their final race on Sunday, there were 2 FV & 1FF cars on track. They had a total entry that weekend of around 180 cars. They will cut into that by requiring a HANS Device, or suitable system very soon. (was 6.1.2008 but. . . ) Future scheduled events may have open wheel OR closed wheel groups. NASA is mostly geared to support the American V-8 powered racer. That said, I'm not sure you could show up with something they could not find a place for. They have a huge set of High Performance Driving Experience groups that progress drivers along. They do operate sessions in the 13/13 Rule format (includes vintage), so contact is discouraged. (Though I've seen people refer to it as "13/13ths", which sounds to me like someone COMPLETELY out of control!) They are flexible, as noted in their rules "NASA offers a wide variety of driving programs throughout the United States including Rally Cross, Rally Sprint, Circle Track Racing, Hill Climbs, Autocrosses, Drag Races, Open Road Races, Time Trials, and more." They are a go fast crowd. I don't see them getting too supportive of little, tiny groups. They could broaden the definition of "Vintage", and I have a feeling they will. They are in a position to be able to alienate those who just came into the fold in an effort to draw a larger new group. There is no true H/Production in vintage racing in this part of the world anymore. A couple of years back, a Frog Eye Sprite showed up sporting an H/P on its flanks, running a 1410 CC, Weber fed engine. It has been acceptable here for years to fit anything with a BMC A-Series engine with the 1275 CC, or your creative version of such, breathing through an unrestricted twin choke side draft. Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing started with a handful of SCCA prepared cars as part of its membership. Those cars were, at the time, already eclipsed by the then permitted SCCA rules. Vintage racers developed beyond there as well, but on a different path. NASA could merge those paths, and be headed for a Region near you. Bill 70 GT-6+ ____________________________________________________________ Click for free info on online degrees and make up to $150K/ year. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nlXF2KEk0E9Pjxtd9ErIF3i5PXmtohp9WnQ8CuN6Wwei2iG/ From Group44TR7 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 11:32:35 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:32:35 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? HSR, GRM, Baseball Message-ID: Amici HSR has been one of the few organizations that has been open to accepting the Group 44 TR7 AND placing it into a reasonable race category (under 2 liter). I personally feel a certain amount of additional pressure as a driver to have this car, with such a great history, to do well in the race. That is a challenge enough for me when I am with comparable cars. Unfortunately, the typical class options for TR7 place them in a situation where they are moving chicanes. Maybe what truly needs to occur is for a new sanctioning body to develope that more actively embraces preserving motor racing history in the period after 1972. Realistically, GRM could help make this happen by building awareness the issue in its pages. Okay, now for a sporting update. Son's team has won the regular season, now heading into playoffs. He ended season with a 850 hitting pace, but is a long ways from a gold glove candidate. As you can imagine, his coach has a love-hate relationship going on with him. I will check back in after the playoff are over :). Cary In a message dated 06/03/2008 6:25:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, GRMTim at aol.com writes: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Tue Jun 3 11:32:54 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:32:54 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1212514374.25433.1256549021@webmail.messagingengine.com> Thank you, Greg. On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:27:58 -0600, "Greg Lunker Hilyer" said: > Scott, > I'm sure we're quite a ways from you - Albuquerque is a long ways > from most anywhere, but Southwest Motorsport [swms.org] would welcome > you and your car. Our club motto is "a group for every driver, a > class for every car". > Greg Hilyer > TR4 #314 > Albuquerque NM > On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > -- Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com From tedtsimx at bright.net Tue Jun 3 14:32:53 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:32:53 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4845AA75.3050404@bright.net> Terry Stetler wrote: > Gents, > > The SCCA has been in constant flux regarding classes since it's inception. > There is nothing new here. When was the last race for B Sedan?. A Sports > Racer? C Modified, or one many won't recall, Spec VW Bug? > > SCCA has always been about what's current, even though it may not seem so. > When I first joined 36 years ago, Production cars were the bread and butter of > the racing program. Why? Because there were still a lot of manufacturers > selling sports cars, and selling them in good numbers as well. That is no > longer the case. Without manufacturer support the SCCA would have dried up a > long time ago. Just my take on it. > > Now, as to the cars we know and love. Can you really expect to continue > development on a car that was last produced over 30 year ago? As much as I > love my old proper British sports cars, it is just not realistic to be > competitive against modern designs with equal prep rules. A brand new MGB > (for example) street car would be beaten up one side and down the other by a > new Miata street car. Why expect different from competetion prepped cars? > And the Miata will be far less expensive I the long run to keep running, hence > their (as well as others) ascendance in SCCA racing. > > I have a personal friend in a similar fix. He is a long time SCCA racer in > the midwest who campaigns a Lotus Elan. New rules have effectively made the > car obsolete. I keep trying to get him to cut the flairs off and go vintage > racing. I know he would have a great time, but old habits die hard I guess. > > It's a real problem, but not one without choices. > > I wish all of you the best. > > Terry Stetler > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as tedtsimx at bright.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1478 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:12 AM > Terry and list. Everybody is making a good point. But no one has asked the real question - "Why did you go racing?" If the answer is to win, then you follow a path to a venue that values winning. If the answer is anything else, camaraderie, conversation at the water cooler or back yard barbecue or an inherent desire to spend money, then you find a venue that allows you to do that. Terry is absolutely correct, manufacturer's and/or the desire to sell products drive racing. Witness the stock car wars of the '60's all the way to last Sunday's NASCAR race, Honda in IRL or Porsche in several professional motorsports arena's. The big vintage sanctioning bodies, SVRA/HSR, are for profit groups. Even though SVRA is the "kinder, gentler" version of HSR's run what you brung, the cars we are involved with have been chased out. Either by rising costs, less time or ??? Sure there may be an exception at 1 event but look at the numbers for the year. 10 years ago small bore English, German and Italian cars would run up your leg when you walked through the paddock. Now the numbers are no where the same. The small cars are almost outnumbered by number of big transporters. Not a complaint, just a fact of life. The big rig guys can probably afford to spend more dollars per laps run than a Spitfire driver. The answer is the same as it's always been. Decide what and why then go find a place to do it.. -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From hottr6 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 15:22:51 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:22:51 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: Uncle Jack asked: > While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. > What's the best thing to do I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 From fpspitfire at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 15:28:40 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:28:40 +0000 Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <060320082128.24314.4845B7880000F16400005EFA22120207840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> All, While this is apparently a hot topic for some people. There have been some comments made that are certainly interesting. I would like to clear a couple things up. 1)The basis of the SCCA production category is that all cars SHALL be given allowances or hinderances to maintain each cars competetiveness in their class. I only brought this up because the current direction completely jacks with us and says your car is not going to be in that class anymore and you must change to make it in a new class. 2) I have no desire to change my car to run vintage and never made any comment that I want to run vintage, it's too far gone to change back ($10k probably) and I don't think the vintage crowd is for me. 3) Thanks to all of you who pointed me in the direction of midwest council and a couple other places. 4) SCCA could make a bunch of money by making all the groups that use their past GCR pay royalties. 5) I don't want to take my car somewhere and kick peoples ass with it...I just want to go run it in a class where it's as competetive as it is in it's current class. I'd prefer to not have to make any changes to it...there are going to be a lot of people in the same boat. I will still contend that vintage groups not thinking about accepting current cars is short sighted. The average driver is getting older and can't be out there for ever. Younger guys are not building vintage cars. I'm a pretty rare guy who is under 35 and races an older car. Thanks for the input...now lets move on to something else. aaron From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Tue Jun 3 16:11:53 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:11:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can say that I have many years on poly diff mounts. I used the first ones available back in the late 70's when somebody was pouring them into homemade molds, and I still have them. I replaced them with the newer, finer quality stuff that is now available but the old red ones looked better after 15 years than the rubber ones do after 3. I would argue that the diff needs to be fairly securely mounted. The gears inside are precisely mated and not likely to be effected by the additional harshness. I guess that's a matter of opinion. I suspect that firm mounting helps the half-shaft u-joints live longer. Failed rubber mounts are a leading cause of rear diff mount bracket failures. I don't think it's the harshness that does in the diff mounts, rather the hammering effect after the rubber collapses. I wouldn't solid mount it, but I think poly is perfect. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Shane Ingate Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:23 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Uncle Jack asked: > While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. > What's the best thing to do I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From ejmajor250 at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 18:12:01 2008 From: ejmajor250 at comcast.net (Ed Major) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:12:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts References: Message-ID: <001301c8c5d7$9d54ccc0$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Back before I knew of the "poly" mounts, I used to just add washers to the old rubber mounts and squeeze them up until I had very little movement, a poor man's way of stiffening up the diff mounts. I think I copied Jack Wheeler or somebody who gave me the advice. Ed '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kramer, Robert" To: "Shane Ingate" ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts >I can say that I have many years on poly diff mounts. I used the first ones > available back in the late 70's when somebody was pouring them into > homemade > molds, and I still have them. I replaced them with the newer, finer > quality > stuff that is now available but the old red ones looked better after 15 > years > than the rubber ones do after 3. > > I would argue that the diff needs to be fairly securely mounted. The gears > inside are precisely mated and not likely to be effected by the additional > harshness. I guess that's a matter of opinion. I suspect that firm > mounting > helps the half-shaft u-joints live longer. Failed rubber mounts are a > leading > cause of rear diff mount bracket failures. I don't think it's the > harshness > that does in the diff mounts, rather the hammering effect after the rubber > collapses. I wouldn't solid mount it, but I think poly is perfect. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Shane Ingate > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:23 PM > To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts > > Uncle Jack asked: >> While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. >> What's the best thing to do > > I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them > so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. > > Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for > solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box > and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition > when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts > for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. > > I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the > poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. > http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s > kydrive_062008 > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as ejmajor250 at comcast.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 20:52:11 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <420605.29649.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> And to beat the dead horse a bit more. In a few years, the Miata will be a vintage car as well and it is prepped to 2008 specs, and so are our spitfires. If they will be allowed, and they will eventually, will the current spec spitfires etc still be disallowed? Why not allow them now, create a class for them. People enjoy seeing these cars perform, I have had many comments about how nice it is to see my car on the track. I am proud of that. I have a historically significant marque car, maybe not individually significant but as a Triumph it is, shoot it has even graced the pages of Kas' recent book and it is reflective of the continued interest in the car that it has survived up to now in SCCA. Imagine seeing 15 or 20 newly prepared cars (bugeyes, sprites, spits) with the vintage prepped cars. Phew that would be great. Even if I didn't have a car (dog in the hunt), I would still find that thought to be great. Like at WGI this fall, what a show that should be. If this can be accommodated for this event, why not for others? And just like the stereotype that vintage is just a parade, well not everyone with an SCCA car wants to dive bomb someone into the turn. I want to win, but not at the expense of my friend's cars or my own. It saddens me to think I could not be running SCCA. It was the best of the best. Love it or hate, you could not ignore it. There is only one SCCA and all the rest are just the rest in my book. While they all have their qualities, no organization has the history (good and bad), and I would bet everyone who has contributed here has memories of some great racing either personally or friends or otherwise. As Triumph enthusiasts, how do we not want to run where Kas and the Group ran. It means a lot to me even if it doesn't to others. And to be able to continue to drive the car and keep the marque going once it is no longer an SCCA eligible car, to join those that have already carried on the history from an earlier time of preparation sounds like it would be a blast. Freezing the rule set effective 2008 would be welcome by me. I don't want my car to gain any more weight (even if I continue to)... ;))) ----- Original Message ---- From: "fpspitfire at comcast.net" To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 5:28:40 PM Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts All, While this is apparently a hot topic for some people. There have been some comments made that are certainly interesting. I would like to clear a couple things up. 1)The basis of the SCCA production category is that all cars SHALL be given allowances or hinderances to maintain each cars competetiveness in their class. I only brought this up because the current direction completely jacks with us and says your car is not going to be in that class anymore and you must change to make it in a new class. 2) I have no desire to change my car to run vintage and never made any comment that I want to run vintage, it's too far gone to change back ($10k probably) and I don't think the vintage crowd is for me. 3) Thanks to all of you who pointed me in the direction of midwest council and a couple other places. 4) SCCA could make a bunch of money by making all the groups that use their past GCR pay royalties. 5) I don't want to take my car somewhere and kick peoples ass with it...I just want to go run it in a class where it's as competetive as it is in it's current class. I'd prefer to not have to make any changes to it...there are going to be a lot of people in the same boat. I will still contend that vintage groups not thinking about accepting current cars is short sighted. The average driver is getting older and can't be out there for ever. Younger guys are not building vintage cars. I'm a pretty rare guy who is under 35 and races an older car. Thanks for the input...now lets move on to something else. aaron Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaxonracing at yahoo.com From budscars at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 23:26:25 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:26:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] test Message-ID: <00d801c8c603$88efd640$0202a8c0@Bud> test From Group44TR7 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 09:43:27 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:43:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: Amici One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries foremost experts on oil pricing. Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. There is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that price. Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. Now an explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own investment and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These funds now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they previous held virtually none. If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to check where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the large public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the investment firms debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. Of course, it their investors moneys. Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him in person. Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. Cary **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 11:31:48 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:31:48 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: Drip? I've got a waterfall. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From timmurph at fastbytes.com Wed Jun 4 11:47:03 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:47:03 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read References: Message-ID: <001801c8c66a$ffb64ef0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Oil is traded in US dollars. The weak dollar is now at $1.60 per Euro. If the dollar was strong and at $1.00 per Euro (which is what the projected exchange rate was when the Euro was adopted) a barrel of oil would be a bit less than $80 per barrel now. $124/bbl divided by $1.60 per Euro is 77.5 Euros/bbl. Hence at $1.00 per Euro oil would be $77.50/bbl. I was involved in negotiating a contract with a German firm supplying controls to my former employer. The Euro was just about to be adopted and in fact by the time the negotiations were completed it had been adopted. There was much discussion as to how to handle the exchange rate fluctuations. It was projected for at least the next 5 years that the exchange rate would vary between $0.95 and $1.05 per Euro. If you are looking for someone to blame for the high oil prices you can look no further that the Congress and Executive branch over the last 40 years which has engaged in huge deficit spending and running up the national debt which has now come home to roost with a very much weakened US dollar. No different than you and I. Keep running up huge debts and sooner or later the bill has to be paid. In international currency there is no Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 (I think) bankruptcy to bail you out. Your currency just tanks on the international market. Interestingly there has been little or no discussion in this election year from the candidates about the national debt or the weak dollar. I guess it's hard for a politician to point the finger at himself! My thoughts. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:43 AM Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > Amici > > One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics > (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries > foremost > experts on oil pricing. > > Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. > There > is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that > price. > Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it > alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. > Now an > explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. > > Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and > investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own > investment > and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These > funds > now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they > previous held virtually none. > > If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand > for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to > check > where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the > large > public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the > investment firms > debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. > Of > course, it their investors moneys. > > Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this > morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him > in person. > Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. > > Cary > > > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From LOddTR at aol.com Wed Jun 4 12:21:45 2008 From: LOddTR at aol.com (LOddTR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:21:45 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: An article with similar comments was in USA Today this morning. In a message dated 6/4/2008 11:50:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Group44TR7 at aol.com writes: Amici One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries foremost experts on oil pricing. Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. There is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that price. Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. Now an explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own investment and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These funds now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they previous held virtually none. If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to check where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the large public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the investment firms debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. Of course, it their investors moneys. Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him in person. Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. Cary **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as loddtr at aol.com **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From triosan at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 12:27:12 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:27:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> As long as we are on the topic: Senate witness today described the chairman of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), which is allowing U.S. oil futures market speculation to be "regulated" by British and Dubai, instead of American, authorities. In a hearing on manipulation of the skyrocketing oil price, the expert witness, University of Maryland law professor Michael Greenberger, told seven angry members of the Senate Commerce Committee that 35% of U.S.-based trading in West Texas Intermediate Crude oil futures has shifted to "dark markets," completely unregulated, by agreement with Britain. On these markets in particular, Greenberger said, a few hedge funds and three investment houses--Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and JP Morgan Chase--are controlling 70% of the speculative buying of U.S. oil futures and driving the price of oil steadily upward, while "ironically, issuing `predictions' that it's going to $200/barrel." This London-Wall Street speculative manipulation of oil and energy prices, with the knowing wink of the CFTC and its chairmanWalter Lukken, was also targetted by Consumer Federation of America witness Dr. Mark Cooper, and by the Senators themselves, as "the London Loophole" accounting for anywhere from 35-50% of the current price of a barrel of crude oil. Cooper told the Senators, "Roll up your sleeves, assert the national authority of the United States, and regulate these markets." On May 25, Sen. Maria Cantwell and 22 other Senators had released a letter to the CFTC demanding that the "London Loophole" be closed. Lukken had responded on May 29 promising action "by Fall." That exchange alone was enough, said Greenberger, to brake the dizzying oil price rise at about $135-going-on-$200, and pull it back down to around $125/barrel. Senator Cantwell said after today's hearing, "Now there will be a lot more signers; and I believe CFTC will take the action required by the economy, and by the morality of the American people, now." If not, she believes the Senate will legislate to force CFTC's hand. Greenberger and Cooper laid out in detail, how 35% of West Texas crude futures are traded on a market headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia--the Intercontinental Commodity Exchange, or ICE--which by CFTC staff actions, is juridically a London offshore market overseen only by the British Financial Services Authority! And oil futures trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) is now "regulated" only by the London-controlled financial authority of Dubai, under another CFTC staff agreement. On what are effectively British offshore markets, Greenberger said, the above-cited banks and hedge funds are simply "continuing and repeating the `subprime' crash of the securities markets, and all their derivatives, on the commodities markets." Adding a sobering note, Gerry Ramm of the Petroleum Marketers Association of America told the Committee that gasoline/diesel/propane dealers all over the country were facing bankruptcy and would start closing their stations, because "we can't get the credit to buy our receivables" which have doubled in price. From spitlist at cox.net Wed Jun 4 13:02:38 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:02:38 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people influencing these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to diesel power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Arnold" To: ; "Friends" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read From REK46 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 13:05:22 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:05:22 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: In keeping with conspiracy's...they are prob trying to put the independent truckers out of business, so then the large conglomerate multi-national truckers can take all the business and jack up the prices sky high on all our food and commerce. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Wed Jun 4 13:22:04 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 REK46 at aol.com wrote: > In keeping with conspiracy's...they are prob trying to put the independent > truckers out of business, so then the large conglomerate multi-national truckers > can take all the business and jack up the prices sky high on all our food and > commerce. No - Commodore Vanderbilt is still pissed off that we broke up his rail monopolies and is trying to get back into the driver's seat. :-) rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From S.Janzen at comcast.net Wed Jun 4 13:33:38 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:33:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Diesel and Gas out of a Barrel of oil References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> This is an exerpt from a larger article - apparently the refining process is not what most of us assume. "Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil refineries tend to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. Most U.S. refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each barrel of crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and most of the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that minimizes the production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the stuff, so it exports it to America-about one of every eight gallons of gasoline that we consume. " ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Curry" To: "Chuck Arnold" ; ; "Friends" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand > requires > less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to > reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people influencing > these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to > diesel > power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. > > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Arnold" > To: ; "Friends" > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net From Billb at bnj.com Wed Jun 4 18:33:01 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:33:01 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Diesel and Gas out of a Barrel of oil In-Reply-To: <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: Yup. Diesel isn't that easy to get from Crude unless you target it. Diesel is actually a lot like plant oil, which is one of many reasons why biodiesel production is possible. It's interesting that some folks are starting to target direct production of diesel from bioengineered algae, which if you think about it, is pretty much how we get crude to begin with. No interceding steps--just big shallow tanks on non-arable land being skimmed. There's even a scheme for using highway medians for the tanks and skimming with freeway-traveling converter trucks. In the short term there will be schemes and speculators, in the long term oil from the ground will be a lot less important. At least it better be. The supply of oil in the world is huge, but finite. On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > This is an exerpt from a larger article - apparently the refining > process is > not what most of us assume. > "Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil > refineries tend > to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. > Most U.S. > refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each > barrel of > crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the > remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied > petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and > most of > the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which > produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that > barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel > production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that > minimizes the > production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the > stuff, so > it exports it to America-about one of every eight gallons of > gasoline that > we consume. " > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Curry" > To: "Chuck Arnold" ; ; "Friends" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To > Read > > >> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand >> requires >> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is >> trying to >> reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people >> influencing >> these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to >> diesel >> power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. >> >> Joe C. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chuck Arnold" >> To: ; "Friends" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To >> Read >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From mark at bradakis.com Wed Jun 4 20:31:01 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:31:01 -0600 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Hillclimb and Autocross project car for sale $750 In-Reply-To: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <48474FE5.2030202@bradakis.com> Boy, am I glad that car is so far away from me! My first Triumph was a GT6, and I want another one some day. mjb. From DSPGTi at aol.com Wed Jun 4 21:05:00 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:05:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: Let me give you a little observation. You can judge if it has any merit. Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb, in a town in Pennsylvania of the same name. The hillclimb was originally run many years ago when hillclimbs in the East were actually part of the SCCA National Championship. It was held on the property of the Hershey Foods Company (the Hershey Bar and Hershey Kisses) on an access road to the Hershey Hotel. In order to bring back the event the organizers convinced the Hershey Company that it was going to be a "Historic Event" and that a significant piece or racing history was going to be preserved. The first year had a modest turn out but some of the cars that showed had significant racing history and created a lot of interest. I ran my TR4 that year and once more two years later. The second year didn't see much improvement and there were a lot of questions about adequate insurance coverage. The organizers approached the Antique Automobile Club of America which is headquartered in Hershey, PA as well. Yes, they could bring to the table a suitable insurance coverage package. The only problem was by their standards (AACA) cars would qualify if they were 25 years old. The next couple of years, the numbers of entries increased. Just this year they had 70 some entries, about twice the number from the start. Think that is good? By my observation very few cars and racing significance this year. I personally had no interest in running there. My reason for being there was I rented out my 1980 ITC Rabbit to someone who had an interest in getting into "Vintage" racing. The field had a mixture of up to date SCCA cars (a bunch of current hillclimb cars from our PHA group), Bugeyes with Rotary motors, Legends cars with motorcycle motors a few C4 (1984 up) Corvettes. There were maybe a half to a dozen authentic Vintage cars. A few people asked me, "Where did the cool cars go?" "What happened to the old Jags and the AC Bristol's and stuff like that"? "How come you don't have your TR out"? "What the hell is that"? pointing the Legends car. We will see what the future brings for the Hershey Historic Hillclimb, but I won't give it much chance for survival. Most vintage drivers don't want to go back and spectators aren't getting what they came to see. They certainly didn't come out to see a Rabbit. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 21:51:54 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <656786.78875.qm@web53509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> but a spitfire that looks like a spitfire that runs spitfire components (including SU's not webers) and is well prepared and runs well on the track is different than a bunch of cars that have been modified with all kinds of different combinations I would bet that if I were to enter the WGI event this fall, my car would garner as much attention as some of the "classic" prepared cars. It looks like a spitfire that is a race car. No different than many others that will be there except a little wider. Alot of people have commented on how we improved this or that or I remember when I had one and it must be a blast to drive. The car is not a bastardization of 2 or more cars under a spitfire shell, it is a car that just happens to have fiberglass and wider tires. The lines are clean and the car is recognizable to enthusiasts. ----- Original Message ---- From: "DSPGTi at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 11:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Let me give you a little observation. You can judge if it has any merit. Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb, in a town in Pennsylvania of the same name. The hillclimb was originally run many years ago when hillclimbs in the East were actually part of the SCCA National Championship. It was held on the property of the Hershey Foods Company (the Hershey Bar and Hershey Kisses) on an access road to the Hershey Hotel. In order to bring back the event the organizers convinced the Hershey Company that it was going to be a "Historic Event" and that a significant piece or racing history was going to be preserved. The first year had a modest turn out but some of the cars that showed had significant racing history and created a lot of interest. I ran my TR4 that year and once more two years later. The second year didn't see much improvement and there were a lot of questions about adequate insurance coverage. The organizers approached the Antique Automobile Club of America which is headquartered in Hershey, PA as well. Yes, they could bring to the table a suitable insurance coverage package. The only problem was by their standards (AACA) cars would qualify if they were 25 years old. The next couple of years, the numbers of entries increased. Just this year they had 70 some entries, about twice the number from the start. Think that is good? By my observation very few cars and racing significance this year. I personally had no interest in running there. My reason for being there was I rented out my 1980 ITC Rabbit to someone who had an interest in getting into "Vintage" racing. The field had a mixture of up to date SCCA cars (a bunch of current hillclimb cars from our PHA group), Bugeyes with Rotary motors, Legends cars with motorcycle motors a few C4 (1984 up) Corvettes. There were maybe a half to a dozen authentic Vintage cars. A few people asked me, "Where did the cool cars go?" "What happened to the old Jags and the AC Bristol's and stuff like that"? "How come you don't have your TR out"? "What the hell is that"? pointing the Legends car. We will see what the future brings for the Hershey Historic Hillclimb, but I won't give it much chance for survival. Most vintage drivers don't want to go back and spectators aren't getting what they came to see. They certainly didn't come out to see a Rabbit. Dave Y. ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From N197TR4 at cs.com Thu Jun 5 08:42:48 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:42:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status Message-ID: FOT, The last conversation I had with I - J Crank scrapers indicated that steel was being processed. We also worked on verifying details where there were variations of component configurations. Crower/Moldex/OEM Cranks, etc. A number of FOT took care of us on these non-oem configurations by working with I - J prior to this PROJECT. Thanks mostly the forward thinking West Coast Guys. One west coaster has received his system and reports that he is extremely pleased with I - J on their cooperation for design for his scraper, and alloy pan configured windage tray. I suspect that shipping will start in a couple of weeks, but I dont have a specfic schedule for shipping yet. I have (12) invoices paid out of (28) systems ordered. I am not cashing these checks yet as I have only been billed for the material so far. But I expect the balance shortly. If anyone decides that this system is worth considering for their Triumph Engine, at this point, please contact me. Regards, Joe Alexander From triosan at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 09:14:29 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:14:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806050814r46acbd92s5ba396182e001934@mail.gmail.com> Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their block/crank]. Went in when the engine was out. There was a little interference on the tray, but the grinder fixed that straight away. I was concerned when I assembled it that the interference with the oil pump on install would not allow me to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. No interference on the tray. Chuck On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:42 AM, wrote: > FOT, > > The last conversation I had with I - J Crank scrapers indicated that steel > was being processed. We also worked on verifying details where there were > variations of component configurations. Crower/Moldex/OEM Cranks, etc. > > A number of FOT took care of us on these non-oem configurations by working > with > I - J prior to this PROJECT. Thanks mostly the forward thinking West Coast > Guys. > > One west coaster has received his system and reports that he is extremely > pleased with I - J on their cooperation for design for his scraper, and > alloy > pan configured windage tray. > > I suspect that shipping will start in a couple of weeks, but I dont have a > specfic schedule for shipping yet. > > I have (12) invoices paid out of (28) systems ordered. I am not cashing > these checks yet as I have only been billed for the material so far. But I > expect > the balance shortly. > > If anyone decides that this system is worth considering for their Triumph > Engine, at this point, please contact me. > > Regards, > > Joe Alexander > > > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as triosan at gmail.com > -- Chuck Arnold From N197TR4 at cs.com Thu Jun 5 09:35:18 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:35:18 EDT Subject: [Fot] Thanks Chuck...Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status Message-ID: Chuck....Since I have no experience yet, this is encouraging and useful information....and thanks for breaking the ground on this feature. Joe Alexander > Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from > crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their block/crank]. Went in > when the engine was out. There was a little interference on the tray, but > the grinder fixed that straight away. I was concerned when I assembled it that > the interference with the oil pump on install would not allow me to remove > the oil pan with the engine in the car. > > I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. > Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two > small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. No > interference on the tray. > > Chuck > From hottr6 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:06:25 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:06:25 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joe Curry asked: > Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires > less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to > reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for) ULS diesel for many years You will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to. I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is due to the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust now smells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From triosan at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:16:19 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:16:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Thanks Chuck...Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806050916k6de1704akb78078f0439a1794@mail.gmail.com> Forgot to mention, the one thing that made installing it while engine in the car is that I have switched to using studs and nuts to hold on the pan. The studs allow the scraper and spacer to be held in place when installed to there is a way to place them in and then install the pan with the windage tray in it. There are pictures of my first install [engine out] are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/WindageTrayScraprerAndStuds Chuck On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:35 AM, wrote: > Chuck....Since I have no experience yet, this is encouraging and useful > information....and thanks for breaking the ground on this feature. > > Joe Alexander > > > Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from > crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their > block/crank]. Went in when the engine was out. There was a little > interference on the tray, but the grinder fixed that straight away. I was > concerned when I assembled it that the interference with the oil pump on > install would not allow me to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. > > > I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. > Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two > small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. > No interference on the tray. > > Chuck > > > > -- Chuck Arnold From hottr6 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:16:50 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:16:50 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Herschey Hillclimb [was other venues to SCCA...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave Y. wrote: > Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb I have done Hershey, and it is a great climb, one of the better in PA. Yes, there are a mix of cars (even a Modified!). Hillclimbs have never been about "just vintage cars", so if you go to a hillclimb expecting just a particular group of cars, you will be disappointed. However, that is not the allure of hillclimbs. Like drag racing and autoX, it is the variety of cars that makes it fun and interesting. I've seen ex-NASCAR, ex-F1, go-carts and specials on steroids, in addition to the more easily identified vehicles based on production cars. Hillclimbs do not make great spectator events, and are more oriented towards drivers. I highly recommend them. I wonder if they ever have hillclimbs up Sandia Peak in ABQ? Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 10:41:26 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:41:26 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: Message-ID: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't have any diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had no reason to check. The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. Thanks, Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Ingate To: spitlist at cox.net Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for)ULS diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. From rhlamp at babcock.com Thu Jun 5 10:57:16 2008 From: rhlamp at babcock.com (Lamp, Randy H) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:57:16 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Off Subject In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> Can anyone tell me how I can get taken off the list? I find the information to be informative and interesting ,but emails are currently coming to my office computer and they are starting to frown on this kind of thing. If at all possible I would like to be removed only temporarily until other arrangements can be made. I contacted the administrator about two months ago but heard nothing in return. Thanks for any assistance you might be able to provide. Great site ,great people! R. Lamp -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rhlamp=babcock.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rhlamp=babcock.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:41 PM To: Shane Ingate Cc: Friends of Triumph Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't have any diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had no reason to check. The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. Thanks, Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Ingate To: spitlist at cox.net Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for)ULS diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- - Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rhlamp at babcock.com ----------------------------------------- This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and contains information that is proprietary to The Babcock & Wilcox Company and/or its affiliates, or may be otherwise confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message from your computer. Thank you. From Billb at bnj.com Thu Jun 5 10:59:12 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:59:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's On Jun 5, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't > have any > diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had > no reason > to check. > > The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. > > Thanks, > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shane Ingate > To: spitlist at cox.net > Cc: Friends of Triumph > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM > Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > > > Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel > (which I > understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore > should be > cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years > ago, the > US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not > only > required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to > produce > than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying > for)ULS > diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less > smoky exhaust > than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the > exhaust, > and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are > using. The > exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central > NM. Needless > to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites > through > Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 11:28:07 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:28:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> Message-ID: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Babcock To: Joe Curry Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 4 20:32:18 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:32:18 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <004801c8c6b4$6098f8f0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> The new Malibu has gotten great reviews, and is IMOHO far from ugly. Probably very comfy and safe. That class of car now gets very good mileage on the hiway, if that will be the type of commute you are forced to do. That said..... Nother alternative is to find some type of work very close to home, and really save energy. That is what I am doing, and I love not having to get gussied and saddled up every morning for a tiresome, expensive trek to an office where I feel uncomfortable all day, only to have to go back and do it all over again the next morning. I'm making less, spending less, and having a much better time of it. Best wishes! Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Curry" To: "Bill Babcock" Cc: "Shane Ingate" ; "Friends of Triumph" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and > I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting > another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been > workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry > about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit > hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when > towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another > vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder > that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So > If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. > > Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Babcock > To: Joe Curry > Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > > > The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes > something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 > and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as > expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 > gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider > gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 > Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm > riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 > MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. > > > If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an > electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four > strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental > conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit > more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 5 12:00:09 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:00:09 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > So If I will be commuting, I have > to find another > vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 5 12:06:21 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:06:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Off Subject In-Reply-To: <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> Message-ID: <000001c8c736$dc3ebe40$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Can anyone tell me how I can get taken off the list? At the bottom of every message is a link to a web page. Eg, > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot Go to that page, to the last box, fill in your email address (rhlamp at babcock.com) and click the button that says "Unsubscribe ...". Randall From herald948 at aol.com Thu Jun 5 12:51:26 2008 From: herald948 at aol.com (Andrew Mace) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:51:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... In-Reply-To: <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Randall Joe mused: > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. Randall replied: Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? ==AM== My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-) --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) Triumph 10 / Herald / Sports 6 vehicle consultant for The Vintage Triumph Register Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database at its new URL: From trmarty at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 13:11:37 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:11:37 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... In-Reply-To: <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm gonna guess Joe will be looking for something with air conditioning for a daily driver :) Marty > To: fot at autox.team.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:51:26 -0400> From: herald948 at aol.com> Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...> > -----Original Message-----> From: Randall > > Joe mused:> > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets > considerably better mileage.> > Randall replied:> > Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ?> > ==AM==> My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 > or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able > to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-)> > --Andy Mace> > *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet?> *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, > Triumph Herald engine with wings.> -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22)> > Triumph 10 / Herald / Sports 6 vehicle consultant for The Vintage > Triumph Register > > Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph > Herald Database at its new URL: > _______________________________________________> http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Fot mailing list> Fot at autox.team.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot> > You are subscribed as trmarty at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 13:31:44 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:31:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com><005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin><01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c8c742$c9bdfea0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> To be perfectly frank, I have never been able to achieve the sort of fuel mileage with any Spit that people tell me that they are getting. Maybe it's the way I drive. But that alone is the reason I have never considered buildingaSpit for that purpose. Plus I already have a garage full of Spits that I would never leave parked on a lot all day. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Mace" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... > -----Original Message----- > From: Randall > > Joe mused: > > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets > considerably better mileage. > > Randall replied: > > Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? > > ==AM== > My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 > or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able > to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-) From kaskas at cox.net Thu Jun 5 14:29:43 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something there that can respond. From BillDentin at aol.com Thu Jun 5 15:29:09 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:29:09 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging Message-ID: **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Return-path: From: BillDentin at aol.com Full-name: BillDentin Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:24:49 EDT Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging To: kaskas at cox.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10721 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 1.01d X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 06/05/2008 3:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time, kaskas at cox.net writes: > Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > I am not surprised. The ex-Executive Vice President of Operations for Nissan Performance Technology, Inc., knew his onions and pretty much got them on the right track. Can't think of his name right now. R. W. something. Bill (Damdinger) ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitfiresuz at 141.com Thu Jun 5 15:51:10 2008 From: spitfiresuz at 141.com (spitfiresuz at 141.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:51:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: <380-22008645215110924@M2W023.mail2web.com> 23-25 mpg? Ha. I get 40-45 in my little car: http://i29.tinypic.com/30uuviw.jpg Unfortunately, when I stand on it, I got nuthin'. The only necks snapping are when people see me go by! ;) Susan :) PS - I drove it to work Tuesday in the small town I work in and created a hullabaloo in the parking lot all day long. The next day a sergeant in the police department called my office and asked if anyone in the office was the owner of the little yellow car. I tentatively said, "Um, that would be me." He said, "What kind of car was that!?!" I had to laugh. :) Original Message: ----------------- From: Kas Kastner kaskas at cox.net Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:43 -0700 To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg... -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com  What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint From tlizzard at msn.com Thu Jun 5 16:01:26 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:01:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging References: Message-ID: My daily driver is a 2003 Honda Civic SI hatchback. Two liter twin cam,160 BHP, and the ability to run 130mph, *ahem* or so they say *ahem*. In my daily running around town I get 25mpg, on the highway running 70~75 on the "snooze control" it delivers 35mpg. It's fun to toss around, (for a front wheel driver anyway), and has been reliable as a stone. Does it all on regular gas too. Terry Stetler. From greenman62 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 16:15:27 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:15:27 +0000 Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale Message-ID: It looks like I'll be heading West in the late summer... For those who know me know this really isn't a surprise. My job was eliminated last September. It was the primary thing that was keeping me in the Midwest since my wife died. My family is on the West Coast and I wanted to get closer to them ( you can't properly spoil Grandchildren long distance). I took the opportunity to "go freelance" (which is graphic designers, photogs talk for "I'm sort of unemployed"). I'm also exploring what this "partial retirement" thing is like... so far I've been plenty busy. My old employer has had me back for work on a number of occasions (at consultant wages), getting my house ready to sell, taking a web design course at the local community college and waiting the arrival of my second grand kid. Maybelle Bridgid arrived on schedule late in March. She's beautiful, smart, strong and did I mention beautiful? I passed the Web Design course with flying colors, and "Castle Pretentious" sold after only 10 days on the market. Closing is in September so I have to get out to Oregon and find someplace to live before I become "homeless". I hope I can catch up with you all before I relocate. I'll be at Blackhawk Farms next weekend, I don't think I'll be able to make the KIC. I'm scheduled to work the race weekend at the Autobahn in July. Other than that I'm really not sure what my calendar will hold for the rest of the summer. Of course if your racing schedules take you west of the Rockies I'll still be covering and going to vintage races ( the folks at Victory Lane said the would keep me busy) in the Northwest. All the best to you all, Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From kaskas at cox.net Thu Jun 5 16:21:22 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:21:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Regrets Message-ID: <009a01c8c75a$7c5af920$3a16c548@RW> Sorry I brought up the mileage subject, hello Greyhound. From earthron at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:14:42 2008 From: earthron at yahoo.com (Ron Jones) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My daily driver is a 98 Mercury Grand Marquise. The mileage is not bad for a big boat, 16 town and 24.8 on the last 700mile, 70+mph cruise. Ron 1958 TR3A in process 1963 TR4 Race Car Kas Kastner wrote: Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 nia street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something there that can respond. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as earthron at yahoo.com From jibjib at att.net Thu Jun 5 17:58:04 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:58:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ac01c8c767$ff816c50$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Welcome home (soon) Greg, Jack Seattle -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of greenman62 at hotmail.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:15 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale It looks like I'll be heading West in the late summer... For those who know me know this really isn't a surprise. My job was eliminated last September. It was the primary thing that was keeping me in the Midwest since my wife died. My family is on the West Coast and I wanted to get closer to them ( you can't properly spoil Grandchildren long distance). I took the opportunity to "go freelance" (which is graphic designers, photogs talk for "I'm sort of unemployed"). I'm also exploring what this "partial retirement" thing is like... so far I've been plenty busy. My old employer has had me back for work on a number of occasions (at consultant wages), getting my house ready to sell, taking a web design course at the local community college and waiting the arrival of my second grand kid. Maybelle Bridgid arrived on schedule late in March. She's beautiful, smart, strong and did I mention beautiful? I passed the Web Design course with flying colors, and "Castle Pretentious" sold after only 10 days on the market. Closing is in September so I have to get out to Oregon and find someplace to live before I become "homeless". I hope I can catch up with you all before I relocate. I'll be at Blackhawk Farms next weekend, I don't think I'll be able to make the KIC. I'm scheduled to work the race weekend at the Autobahn in July. Other than that I'm really not sure what my calendar will hold for the rest of the summer. Of course if your racing schedules take you west of the Rockies I'll still be covering and going to vintage races ( the folks at Victory Lane said the would keep me busy) in the Northwest. All the best to you all, Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 5 20:13:34 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:13:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR3 at auction Message-ID: <864E932F43644AB7AA7847F564C92A6F@SohlPC> >From my latest issue of Old Cars Weekly... At the Worldwide Houston Classic auction (Seabrook, TX 5/3/08) 1963 TR-3B sold for $40,700 (no other info available) Cheers Bill Sohl From greenman62 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 20:17:43 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:17:43 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > My daily driver is a 98 Mercury Grand Marquise. The mileage is not bad for a big boat, 16 town and 24.8 on the last 700mile, 70+mph cruise. I guess I'll chime in here. My 2002 Audi TT quattro commonly gives ~30mpg on the highway also cruising at 70+. I originally bought it used as a toy car. It quickly proved itself to be more practical for me than the family hauler, a 2002, A4 bought new several years before my wife passed away. Great aerodynamics, I guess. Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 5 20:54:27 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: I get 40+ miles to the gallon. I hate almost every second of being in that car, a 2000 Toyota Corolla. It is a piece of SH-T. With a 120,000miles, it is practically worn out. I am asked by every ethinic nationality if I want to sell it. "What on earth you do want this piece of crap for" is my reponse. " Oh, they are great cars" is thier response. "To each his own" I say. Dave Y **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From timmurph at fastbytes.com Thu Jun 5 22:13:33 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:13:33 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <001001c8c78b$af91d210$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> In 1997 my daughter and I took a hiking vacation in Glacier National Park in Montana. We both live in Wisconsin. It was a little bit over 4000 miles. Took a lot of side trips on the "back" roads. I had a new 1997 BMW 328is. We averaged 26 MPG for the trip with a low of 23 MPG when we drove back across Montana on Highway 2 cruising at around 120 MPH between towns. No speed limit in Montana then, just "reasonable and prudent" or maybe "proper". Seemed reasonable to me. Passed one trooper going the other way at about 100. High mileage for the trip was the last leg in Wisconsin when I was taking it easy, got 32 MPG then. Car still gets 28 to 30 MPG on the highway, maybe a bit more if I keep my foot out of it. Not bad for a "perfomance" car. Tim Murphy 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging > Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like > 23-25 > mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably > never > pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a > SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense > though. > > My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern > California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of > California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better > gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry > what > ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu Thu Jun 5 22:53:57 2008 From: JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:53:57 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <00c801c8c791$550fe6f0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Joe, I picked up an 06 Malibu LS from my company (employee car) with 60K on it. I did my research first, as I figured the Malibu would be an appliance. It's not. It's based on GM's Epsilon chassis (Saab 9-3, Opel Vectra Pontiac Future? Grand AM & Saturn LS??, etc.) The seats are great, the suspension configuration common across platforms (shocks/springs differ) etc, and my mixed driving keeps the mileage between 29 and 32. Oh, four wheel disk brakes, rear IRS, side air bags, etc. Do some research on GM's Epsilon platform cars. It's no sports car, but I'm impressed with the value. Jack -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:28 AM To: Bill Babcock Cc: Shane Ingate; Friends of Triumph Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Babcock To: Joe Curry Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of Epislon commonality.doc] From fubog1 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 05:17:15 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:17:15 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging 300-400 mpg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA95DE023C3C5A-530-458F@WEBMAIL-DC19.sysops.aol.com> yeah well my trusty old Land Rover gets 300-400 miles per gallon.... of oil... Glen ps- and it will go faster than 45 mph, downhill... -----Original Message----- From: Terry Stetler To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging My daily driver is a 2003 Honda Civic SI hatchback. Two liter twin cam,160 BHP, and the ability to run 130mph, *ahem* or so they say *ahem*. In my daily running around town I get 25mpg, on the highway running 70~75 on the "snooze control" it delivers 35mpg. It's fun to toss around, (for a front wheel driver anyway), and has been reliable as a stone. Does it all on regular gas too. Terry Stetler. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From gaf3 at charter.net Fri Jun 6 06:31:14 2008 From: gaf3 at charter.net (Glenn Franco) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:31:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <48492E12.20201@charter.net> My daily driver is a 1991 Mercedes 300D (285,000 mile diesel), fuel is a bit pricey ($4.75) in Michigan but it gets ~28 around town and 32 on the highway. It loves to cruise above 80 mph but getting there takes forever. When I'm really in a pinch for fuel economy, I drive my 82 VW rabbit pickup diesel that gets routinely 44 mpg around town and can haul (6 ft bed) most of what I need. On the other hand I'm moving my daughter from Michigan to Arizona this summer with our motor home that averages 6 mpg. My fuel bills should generate interesting conversation. Glenn Franco Kas Kastner wrote: > Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 > mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never > pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a > SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. > > My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern > California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of > California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better > gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what > ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as gaf3 at charter.net From spreiss at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 15:39:03 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:39:03 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Group I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the concept of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a major factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, like the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the grand prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of bench engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! Steve P. From JWoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 06:52:29 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:52:29 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:42:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, spreiss at verizon.net writes: Group I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the concept of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a major factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, like the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the grand prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of bench engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! Steve P. This might be interesting as a project for current pro and club level events, but it isn't something we would embrace as vintage racers at vintage events. Vintage racers are "part of the racing community" but our segment, by it's very nature, is not conducive to new concepts. Since this list has both vintage racers and current racers, as well as street car folks, I am only speaking for the vintage racer segment. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Fri Jun 6 07:00:15 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm not an expert in the area, but "index of performance" was a factor in days of yore. Not to be a wise-guy, but it seems that the French used index of performance to make sure that a french team got some mention at Le Mans once or twice in the past. :-) -ducking for cover- rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From spreiss at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 16:21:55 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:21:55 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> With the current state of oil production and global politics, the can has pretty much been opened for us. The question remains, whether we as vintage enthusiasts are willing (able?) to broaden our perspective to include current concerns, or become increasingly limited in our appeal to those outside of our immediate, aging group. The public's initial interest in our cars when they were first introduced to this country was based in large part on their efficiency. Vintage does I agree carry other potent appeals, based in part on nostalgia and historic preservation, but equally on creativity (i.e. how do I make this old crate perform better than someone else can and stay within the rules). In my mind there no need to sacrifice these goals/ideals by introducing an aspect that is of growing concern to all who live on the planet. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig" To: ; Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > I'm with Jack on this......we could open a can of worms > Craig > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:42:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > spreiss at verizon.net writes: > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool > > if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our > > groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. > > Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport > > in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > > > > > > > This might be interesting as a project for current pro and club level > > events, but it isn't something we would embrace as vintage racers at > > vintage events. > > > > Vintage racers are "part of the racing community" but our segment, by > > it's > > very nature, is not conducive to new concepts. > > > > Since this list has both vintage racers and current racers, as well as > > street car folks, I am only speaking for the vintage racer segment. > > > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as wensley_tr at comcast.net From jwoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 07:40:49 2008 From: jwoesvra at aol.com (jwoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:40:49 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <8CA95F2102F864C-1038-50@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com> <<<>>> Certainly a worthy subject. Just not something we (vintage) would be able or willing to mandate, that's all. I have no problem with voluntary experimentation by individuals. However, I think it might have merits at the current club level and even pro level, to promote awareness in new concepts. It could be another way to score enduros at the club level. I don't think you need add-on flow meters. Just have everyone fill their tanks at the start and keep track of how much you put in during the race, and then top up at the end. jw From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 09:08:15 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00011BC3-5E73-42B4-A51F-F4C9345C2B85@bnj.com> Absolutely correct. I'm interested in fuel performance but only in a market sense. What we're watching is largely manipulated fuel cost (not just our friends in the gulf, but lots of speculators everywhere) but it's a good thing in many ways. We're FINALLY seeing some elasticity effects--people are taking action and interest in conserving resources is growing. I always believed (hoped) the market would compensate for increase demand for resources and a shrinking pie. I'm relieved to see it working so powerfully as it always does. Of course there's a lot of goofiness and running off in the wrong directions. But that's human nature. The weak and stupid approaches will die (unless the government gets involved in propping them up) and the world will ultimately be a little better off. On Jun 6, 2008, at 6:00 AM, Robert Lang wrote: > Hi, > > I'm not an expert in the area, but "index of performance" was a > factor in > days of yore. Not to be a wise-guy, but it seems that the French used > index of performance to make sure that a french team got some > mention at > Le Mans once or twice in the past. > > :-) > > -ducking for cover- > > rml > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent > Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! > Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 09:20:30 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:20:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a good example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, we wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet from global warming. Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. On Jun 5, 2008, at 3:21 PM, Steven Preiss wrote: > With the current state of oil production and global politics, the > can has > pretty much been opened for us. The question remains, whether we as > vintage > enthusiasts are willing (able?) to broaden our perspective to include > current concerns, or become increasingly limited in our appeal to > those > outside of our immediate, aging group. The public's initial interest > in our > cars when they were first introduced to this country was based in > large part > on their efficiency. Vintage does I agree carry other potent > appeals, based > in part on nostalgia and historic preservation, but equally on > creativity > (i.e. how do I make this old crate perform better than someone else > can and > stay within the rules). In my mind there no need to sacrifice these > goals/ideals by introducing an aspect that is of growing concern to > all who > live on the planet. > Steve P. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 09:35:11 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:35:11 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: My old 66 Mini 850 got 40-50 mpg back in 1972...drove it to work every day....you could still blow off any chevy for a 100 feet....wish I still had it ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 09:43:31 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:43:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Yeah, Me Too! Not because I think their intensions are not good but because if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would scrap that old car instead of selling it. By selling it, the care remains out there polluting and burning just as much fuel. Plus people who buy old cars typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse polluters. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Steven Preiss" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong > direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would > infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a good > example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, we > wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet > from global warming. > > Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 > MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 09:54:41 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: When we moved to Maryland from California in 2000, we rented a Crown Vic (the TR6 and our '91 Civic SI was a bit small for the trip that included 2 Rotties). I specifically ordered a white CV, and I stuck on an antenna, wore a crisp blue shirt and aviator glasses, and cruised at 90+ mph the whole way. Passed many cruisers going the opposite way and I waved to the nice policemen. They waved back. 28 mpg for the trip. A similar trip in a heavily laden rented Buick LeSabre (speed limits observed) netted 32 mpg. My '91 Civic SI gets 35 mpg in my 30 mile rural commute, but that includes 5 miles of dirt and a 3,000' elevation change each way (I coast to work, but it is an uphill climb on the way home). The elevation of 7,500' does not help my mileage, and it gets pretty breathless up some steep hills. I've been looking at superchargers. The dog hauler (a '99 Taurus wagon) gets 25 mpg on the same commute (no coasting). The turbocharged Duramax gets 18 mpg, and says "what hill?" Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 6 10:30:12 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:30:12 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: Message-ID: Bring back the "Index of Performance"? I can see it now, 40 Crosley Hotshots teetering around Mid Ohio. HEHE!!!!! Terry Stetler. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 10:37:03 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:37:03 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From John.Reed at wilson.com Fri Jun 6 10:39:46 2008 From: John.Reed at wilson.com (John Reed) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:39:46 -0500 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And a few Imps On 6/6/08 11:37 AM, "REK46 at aol.com" wrote: > followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans > > > ************** > Get trade > secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as john.reed at wilson.com Regards, John Reed Global Staff Photographer Creative Services Wilson Sporting Goods Co. 8750 W Bryn Mawr Ave, Chicago, Illinois 60631, USA Tel. + 1.773.714.6895, fax +1.773.714.4585 John.Reed at wilson.com www.wilson.com www.amersports.com This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 11:04:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:04:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean. if you consider the total energy costs of producing a new car, there isn't a sufficient resource saving for that added 10 MPG to justify a new one. If you want to contribute then keep your car much longer, drive less, carpool, maintain your car well, keep your tires properly inflated to the high side. It's trivial, but it's actually positive. Trading your Hyundai for a Prius is a fashion statement. Nothing more. Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But that doesn't mean I can't do math. The media loves this story--it appeals to their smug and monumentally uninformed self-righteousness and it's good copy. I loved all the NASCAR stories about fuel being a big deal for the teams. The stories were ALL written manipulatively, to make it seem like race fuel was the issue. Only if you read past the second paragraph (which any weasel mind-manipulator like me knows 90 percent of the readers won't do) do you discover that they were talking about fuel for the airplanes that they transport the teams with. It's just cynical marketing for event promoters like Nascar to prattle about fuel considerations. Amid 50,000 cars in the parking lot at a typical race, each carrying 1.3 people. Teams flying in with a fleet of Citations or the three Roush 727's, fifty cars driving 500 miles is a fart in a hurricane. You've got to admire the blatant duplicity. This morning on Good Morning they had extensive coverage of the goofballs climbing New York skyscrapers, with all the hosts looking very concerned about copycats and how illegal it all was. Then they announced they were going to have an exclusive interview with the french guy who's climbing...wait for it...to protest global warming. The first copycat weenie had to dream something up on the spot--all he could come up with was "to make people aware of the dangers of malaria". I nearly blew coffee out my nose. What a wonderful world. On Jun 6, 2008, at 8:43 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > Yeah, Me Too! Not because I think their intensions are not good but > because > if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would > scrap that > old car instead of selling it. By selling it, the care remains out > there > polluting and burning just as much fuel. Plus people who buy old cars > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > polluters. > > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Babcock" > To: "Steven Preiss" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > >> Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong >> direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would >> infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a >> good >> example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, >> we >> wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet >> from global warming. >> >> Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 >> MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. > _______________________________________________ From greenman62 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:20:34 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > that doesn't mean I can't do math. If I had to guess you probably don't drive your Ferrari every day. When you do, you drive it for your health... `cos it make you feel good. Now that's real soul food! Greg Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 11:22:42 2008 From: billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:22:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: <667E58DD-CC5A-468D-9CC9-90EA45E42235@bnj.com> Actually it's my daily driver--I don't own a different car. But I ride my motorcycle more than drive--always have. On Jun 6, 2008, at 10:20 AM, wrote: > > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > > that doesn't mean I can't do math. > > If I had to guess you probably don't drive your Ferrari every day. > > When you do, you drive it for your health... `cos it make you feel > good. Now that's real soul food! > > Greg > > Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My > car's just marking its territory... > > > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:57:19 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:57:19 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: Joe Curry wrote: ...if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would scrap that old car instead of selling it. My understanding is that it is far better economics and less taxing on natural resources to keep the old klunker going. Most of the pollution caused by a car during its lifetime (cradle-to-grave) is during its manufacture and disposal, not when it is used on the road. I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than building a Tahoe. What tipped the scales was the manufacturing of the battery. The nickel is mined in the US, processed in Poland, refined in Japan, assembled into the battery in Canada, and then installed into the car in Japan. The nickel travels around the world 3 times. Don't even ask about the cost of disposing of this toxic mess. Prius owners are in for a real shock come time to replace the batteries. Shane Ingate, musing on a slow Friday, in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:07:56 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:07:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: <006001c8c800$3f6fb5e0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Many people routinely trade cars after only 3 years or so (and even sooner). If the trade for a high mileage model falls into that routine, it is a positive, particularly if they can get the old gas guzzler off the road. Having it sent to the used market does not help much but the effect of getting an earth friendly vehicle at a time that you would buy another gas guzzler is a step in the right direction. Doing it just to show your neighbors that you care is pretty pathetic. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Joe Curry" Cc: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean. if you consider > the total energy costs of producing a new car, there isn't a > sufficient resource saving for that added 10 MPG to justify a new one. > If you want to contribute then keep your car much longer, drive less, > carpool, maintain your car well, keep your tires properly inflated to > the high side. It's trivial, but it's actually positive. Trading your > Hyundai for a Prius is a fashion statement. Nothing more. > > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > that doesn't mean I can't do math. > > The media loves this story--it appeals to their smug and monumentally > uninformed self-righteousness and it's good copy. I loved all the > NASCAR stories about fuel being a big deal for the teams. The stories > were ALL written manipulatively, to make it seem like race fuel was > the issue. Only if you read past the second paragraph (which any > weasel mind-manipulator like me knows 90 percent of the readers won't > do) do you discover that they were talking about fuel for the > airplanes that they transport the teams with. > > It's just cynical marketing for event promoters like Nascar to prattle > about fuel considerations. Amid 50,000 cars in the parking lot at a > typical race, each carrying 1.3 people. Teams flying in with a fleet > of Citations or the three Roush 727's, fifty cars driving 500 miles is > a fart in a hurricane. > > You've got to admire the blatant duplicity. This morning on Good > Morning they had extensive coverage of the goofballs climbing New York > skyscrapers, with all the hosts looking very concerned about copycats > and how illegal it all was. Then they announced they were going to > have an exclusive interview with the french guy who's climbing...wait > for it...to protest global warming. > > The first copycat weenie had to dream something up on the spot--all he > could come up with was "to make people aware of the dangers of > malaria". I nearly blew coffee out my nose. > > What a wonderful world. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 6 12:06:59 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:06:59 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Plus people who buy old cars > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > polluters. Thanks for the laugh, Joe ! Randall From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:22:53 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Triumph owners aside! I was talking of the people who never buy new cars because (I can't afford it) and likewise buy a junker and drive it until the wheels fall off without putting any money into maintenance (including oil changes). I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > Plus people who buy old cars > > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > > polluters. > > Thanks for the laugh, Joe ! > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 6 12:32:21 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:32:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke > screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars too old for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on my 59 TR3A. Randall From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 12:37:13 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:37:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: A blathering idiot (me) wrote: > I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource > cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than > building a Tahoe. Sorry. That is incorrect. The statement should read: ..the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is MORE than building a Tahoe. Shane Ingate, better off asleep, in NM. _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:46:14 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:46:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <001901c8c805$99082a60$2d02a8c0@Belkin> We Definitely do here. Most of them have Mexico License plates. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke > > screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. > > Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars too old > for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. > > Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on my 59 > TR3A. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From kaskas at cox.net Fri Jun 6 13:43:06 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <000f01c8c80d$8b299f70$3a16c548@RW> The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of the event. No thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Preiss" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > Group > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > concept > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > major > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > like > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > grand > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > bench > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > Steve P. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 13:58:54 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:58:54 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <000f01c8c80d$8b299f70$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <002901c8c80f$bfb90ee0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I think that most real racing bodies have it right these days. Fuel economy is important and comes into play in the pit stop strategy. That is about the only way to make up positions on many F1 circuits and it is what got Danica her first Indy car win. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel > economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last > three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead > of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on > the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the > other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! > and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just > how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of > the event. No thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From dmitchel at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 6 14:33:52 2008 From: dmitchel at sbcglobal.net (Doug Mitchell) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:33:52 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c80f$bfb90ee0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: I don't have the link here at home, but there was an article in the Wall Street Journal on Monday about BMW using regenerative braking on its F1 cars in 2009. They didn't call it that, but essentially, the charged energy will allow them to use it for up to 6 seconds per lap to increase something like 60 hp. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+dmitchel=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+dmitchel=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 3:59 PM To: Kas Kastner; Steven Preiss; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus I think that most real racing bodies have it right these days. Fuel economy is important and comes into play in the pit stop strategy. That is about the only way to make up positions on many F1 circuits and it is what got Danica her first Indy car win. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel > economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last > three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead > of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on > the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the > other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! > and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just > how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of > the event. No thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as dmitchel at sbcglobal.net From yellow-green at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 6 14:48:51 2008 From: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net (Dennis DeLap) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR Message-ID: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Note: forwarded message attached. X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:31:29 -0500 Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 From: "Gary Nichols" To: "Dennis Delap" Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm From DSPGTi at aol.com Fri Jun 6 17:16:35 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:16:35 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. Audi diesel in the LeMans series. Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel efficient car and we saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 17:51:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:51:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: You won't see them in Oregon either, when you do it's a real shock. I got stopped by a cop because my diesel was emitting too much soot. I thanked him for stopping me, I didn't see it (long way to the back of my F350 crew cab). It was a haywire sensor, easily fixed, but the dealer had to take it through DEQ. On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Randall wrote: >> I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke >> screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. > > Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars > too old > for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. > > Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on > my 59 > TR3A. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 17:58:29 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:58:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: We all understood I suspect. Big debate on the batteries in the hybrid sites. Dealers charge about $8K to replace a pack and generally trash them. The packs can be disassembled and individually cell tested. It's usually NOT a bad battery but corroded connectors. Some folks have them last 150K miles or more, some barely make 50K. In a car that supposed to be a daily commuter that's pretty unacceptable. Plug-in hybrids will get even more interesting. They have a range of about 25 miles before the motor has to run. For most commutes that's pretty good, even if you don't have a place to charge them at work. Seems like a solar panel on the roof could deliver a decent float charge even unplugged. Give the usual duty cycle of a car (1 hour in the morning, idle all day, 1 hour at night) it should be useful. We'll see. Cars are going to get pretty interesting. I'm considering (in a lightweight, goofy fashion) building my TR3 street car as a hybrid. On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Shane Ingate wrote: > A blathering idiot (me) wrote: > >> I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource >> cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than >> building a Tahoe. > > Sorry. That is incorrect. The statement should read: > > ..the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is MORE > than building a Tahoe. > Shane Ingate, better off asleep, in NM. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou > back > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 18:08:53 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:08:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR In-Reply-To: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92ED7529-B94D-488F-8C09-E347B13BA74C@bnj.com> Wow, beautiful work. On Jun 6, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > Note: forwarded message attached. > X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, > 06 > Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 > X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] > Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com > from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) > Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) > (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 > Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 > X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] > Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com > [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with > ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun > 2008 14:31:29 -0500 > Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com > with SMTP id > <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for > ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 > From: "Gary Nichols" > To: "Dennis Delap" > Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 > > http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 18:13:11 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: <93352.46457.qm@web53511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I want to thank JW and the SVRA for not bending the rules to allow the current spec SCCA race cars. As a result the SCCA has rescinded its plan to consolidate which means my car will remain SCCA eligible and possibly competitive for a little while longer. Of course I am kidding about JW and the SVRA. It was good to hear the different perspectives regarding the different options available. Maybe another tub can be prepped for vintage and everything else is removable and can be placed on the new tub. Or maybe a GT6...hmmm. Either way, I am glad I will be with the SCCA for a little while longer at least. I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. From JWoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 18:28:23 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:28:23 EDT Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo of your car. The form is at _www.svra.com_ (http://www.svra.com) . After all that dialogue this week I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We all have our niches that we feel comfortable in. I have nothing but total awe and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis won the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini with rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice burners away. In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can keep doing it. I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage Racers have a nich that we will protect. We are a time capsule and you guys are the cutting edge. We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to party together. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:06:42 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Amen to that!!!! Its like visiting your grand parents. You may have the same last name and look similar but after a while it best to go your separate ways. No offense to grand parents. LOL It was great to see Joe H. win in that Mini. They know how to prep cars. They are clearly a benchmark for race car preparation. I will print the form and get it to you. I have pictures, just check Kas' book (plug for Kas), Spitfire & GT6 Magazine (plug for Howard), Lime Rock Track Record (skippy plug). Seriously, I have plenty. Do you want electronic files or prints? and NO Aaron we do not want the one from NHIS in 2005. ;)))) I lost a contact I told you, I couldn't see. ;))) thanks ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 8:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo of your car. The form is at www.svra.com. After all that dialogue this week I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We all have our niches that we feel comfortable in. I have nothing but total awe and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis won the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini with rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice burners away. In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can keep doing it. I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage Racers have a nich that we will protect. We are a time capsule and you guys are the cutting edge. We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to party together. Jack Woehrle ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From mark at bradakis.com Fri Jun 6 19:26:52 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:26:52 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Quick out of town trip Message-ID: <4849E3DC.40300@bradakis.com> Karen and I will be heading for the airport in a moment, flying into Orange County. Attending a nephew's wedding saturday, flying back home sunday evening. Less than 48 hours with the inlaws, I can handle that! Behave yourselves while I'm away. mjb. From budscars at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 19:24:16 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:24:16 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA References: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c8c83d$34059340$0202a8c0@Bud> By Joe H. do you mean Huffaker? Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Creel" To: ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA > Amen to that!!!! Its like visiting your grand parents. You may have the > same > last name and look similar but after a while it best to go your separate > ways. No offense to grand parents. LOL > > It was great to see Joe H. win in > that Mini. They know how to prep cars. They are clearly a benchmark for > race > car preparation. > > I will print the form and get it to you. I have pictures, > just check Kas' book (plug for Kas), Spitfire & GT6 Magazine (plug for > Howard), Lime Rock Track Record (skippy plug). Seriously, I have plenty. > Do > you want electronic files or prints? > > and NO Aaron we do not want the one > from NHIS in 2005. ;)))) I lost a contact I told you, I couldn't see. > ;))) > > thanks > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > > To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Friday, > June 6, 2008 8:28:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA > > In a > message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > I am interested in entering the WGI event in > September, how > would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by > Triumphs for the > weekend. > > Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo > of your car. The form is at www.svra.com. > > After all that dialogue this week > I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We > all > have our niches that we feel comfortable in. > > I have nothing but total awe > and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in > SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis > won > the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini > with > rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice > burners > away. > > In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can > keep doing it. > > I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage > Racers have a nich that we will protect. > > We are a time capsule and you guys > are the cutting edge. > > We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to > party together. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > ________________________________ > Get trade > secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL > Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 19:47:21 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR References: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <92ED7529-B94D-488F-8C09-E347B13BA74C@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000d01c8c840$6db1f360$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I second that WOW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Dennis DeLap" Cc: "FOT" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR > Wow, beautiful work. > On Jun 6, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > >> Note: forwarded message attached. >> X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, >> 06 >> Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 >> X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] >> Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com >> from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) >> Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) >> (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 >> Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 >> X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] >> Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com >> [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with >> ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun >> 2008 14:31:29 -0500 >> Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com >> with SMTP id >> <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for >> ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 >> From: "Gary Nichols" >> To: "Dennis Delap" >> Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. >> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> X-Priority: 3 >> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 >> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 >> >> http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Babcock & Jenkins > Billb at bnj.com > 503.936.7660 > www.bnj.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From jwoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 19:51:34 2008 From: jwoesvra at aol.com (jwoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:51:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA In-Reply-To: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA96582644C0D3-1400-2965@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> Do you want electronic files or prints? either way is fine. jw From spreiss at verizon.net Fri Jun 6 05:42:44 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:42:44 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: Message-ID: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Guess my true colors have been revealed. My very first car was a 1961 Fiat Abarth 750. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: REK46 at aol.com To: tlizzard at msn.com ; spreiss at verizon.net ; fot at autox.team.net ; JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 22:31:19 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:31:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: I had an 850 Spider when I was on the Enterprise, I met another sailor in the parking lot at Newport News Shipyard one day who was shipping out, had bought ALL the abarth stuff--head, carb and manifold, cam, exhaust, big bore pistons and then his car was stolen. He sold the whole lot to me for ten cents on the dollar. I pulled the engine myself without a lift--just plucked it out like a sewing machine in a trunk. Okay, a pretty heavy sewing machine, but I could carry it. Did all the work in two weekends and had it back running. on the next monday. It was pretty cool. Beaucoup oversteer and you had to be on the powerband to make much happen, but it would eat up most of the LBC's around. I eventually discovered a lot more midrange when I realized the cam was advanced one tooth. I shipped out to Westpac for eight months and my wife (at that time) hated the car. I shoulda kept the car and got rid of the wife. On Jun 6, 2008, at 4:42 AM, Steven Preiss wrote: > Guess my true colors have been revealed. My very first car was a > 1961 Fiat > Abarth 750. > Steve P. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: REK46 at aol.com > To: tlizzard at msn.com ; spreiss at verizon.net ; fot at autox.team.net ; > JWoesvra at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > > followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" > on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From trmarty at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 07:33:06 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:33:06 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spity alignments Message-ID: I am going to try and get my latest project , a 1964 Vintage Race Spitfire into autox mode so that I will have something to run at VTR in Ypsilanti in August since the demise of the TR6. Should be interesting since I believe it has a welded diff and I have yet to drive the car. Wont be in the running for FTD for sure. Hopefully their will be some folks there to give Richard a run :). Any of you forks that run Spitfires have any suggestions as to alignment specs? Marty _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From Herald948 at aol.com Sat Jun 7 08:29:08 2008 From: Herald948 at aol.com (Herald948 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:29:08 EDT Subject: [Fot] Spity alignments Message-ID: In a message dated 6/7/2008 9:33:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, trmarty at hotmail.com writes: I am going to try and get my latest project , a 1964 Vintage Race Spitfire into autox mode so that I will have something to run at VTR in Ypsilanti in August since the demise of the TR6. Should be interesting since I believe it has a welded diff and I have yet to drive the car. Wont be in the running for FTD for sure. Hopefully their will be some folks there to give Richard a run :). Any of you forks that run Spitfires have any suggestions as to alignment specs? ==AM== Hmm....I vaguely remember someone who cleaned up an abandoned-in-a-barn (honest!) GP Spitfire 4, threw some cast-off FF qualifying slicks on it, and eventually went on to take FTD at VTR autocrosses in 1986 and 1989, welded diff. and all! Note that the "and all" included the typical Kastner-recommended race mods and parts, circa 1968 or so, right down to the camber compensator and Konis, and an engine that probably would just about qualify as a hot street engine nowadays. Oh, and a welded 4.55 diff, which I always enjoyed exploiting on the course! It all worked pretty well as a cheap and cheerful autocrosser for many years. Unfortunately for me, various talented members of the infamous TR Gang came along, using a certain monster TR4 and other weapons. ;-) Sure would be nice to see another "Vintage Race" Spitfire 4 out there on the VTR course. I've no alignment suggestions; we never got much further, in our extreme cheapness and casualness, than getting it to track straight without too much scuffing or scalloping of the tires.... --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) The Vintage Triumph Register's Triumph 10, Herald and Sports 6 vehicle consultant _http://www.vtr.org_ (http://www.vtr.org/) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database:_ http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From keithfiles at btinternet.com Sat Jun 7 13:37:20 2008 From: keithfiles at btinternet.com (Keith Files) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:37:20 +0100 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) Dear All, Here is the view from the other side of the pond. Currently diesel is at #5.91 per gallon; that is approx $11 per gallon of which the Government nets around $7 per gallon. The UK Government is getting a massive tax windfall with the rising oil price (not to mention the profits from Brent crude) and they are still thinking about introducing further increases on fuel tax soon!!!! Unleaded is around $10 per gallon. I used to run a 4.7 litre Jeep Grand Cherokee on LPG and Petrol; towing I got 13 mpg and commuting in and out of London 17 mpg at $5 per gallon for LPG that made sense to me (sold it because it blew the head gaskets for the second time in 6 months and the repair costs were horrendous). I run a Land Rover Discovery 3 on diesel now and get 19 mpg towing and 25 mpg commuting (the self levelling air suspension is something else when you are towing). I also run an Audi A4 diesel that gives me 64 mpg on the motorways; I use this car for the long hauls (well long by our standards). I also run a Porsche GT3 on the days when I want some fun; surprisingly even when driven hard still gives 23 mpg and 28mpg when cruising on the motorways or autobahns... Cheers, Keith. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: 07 June 2008 00:17 To: kaskas at cox.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. Audi diesel in the LeMans series. Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel efficient car and we saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as keithfiles at btinternet.com From Billb at bnj.com Sat Jun 7 22:09:57 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:09:57 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) References: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) Message-ID: <034138C3-C18D-47F6-BB15-7B9E5A510443@bnj.com> 'm sure they'll spend the windfall wisely. I've always been surprised at the mileage I get from my 360 Spider. Modern cars do pretty well even when there's 400 ponies under the hood. The wonders of fuel injection and ECUs On Jun 7, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Keith Files wrote: > Dear All, > > Here is the view from the other side of the pond. > > Currently diesel is at #5.91 per gallon; that is approx $11 per > gallon of > which the Government nets around $7 per gallon. The UK Government is > getting > a massive tax windfall with the rising oil price (not to mention the > profits > from Brent crude) and they are still thinking about introducing > further > increases on fuel tax soon!!!! > > Unleaded is around $10 per gallon. > > I used to run a 4.7 litre Jeep Grand Cherokee on LPG and Petrol; > towing I > got 13 mpg and commuting in and out of London 17 mpg at $5 per > gallon for > LPG that made sense to me (sold it because it blew the head gaskets > for the > second time in 6 months and the repair costs were horrendous). > > I run a Land Rover Discovery 3 on diesel now and get 19 mpg towing > and 25 > mpg commuting (the self levelling air suspension is something else > when you > are towing). > > I also run an Audi A4 diesel that gives me 64 mpg on the motorways; > I use > this car for the long hauls (well long by our standards). > > I also run a Porsche GT3 on the days when I want some fun; > surprisingly even > when driven hard still gives 23 mpg and 28mpg when cruising on the > motorways > or autobahns... > > Cheers, Keith. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net] On > Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: 07 June 2008 00:17 > To: kaskas at cox.net; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging > > There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: > > We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. > > Audi diesel in the LeMans series. > > Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. > > I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by > enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel > efficient > car and we > saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > Dave Y. > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking > with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as keithfiles at btinternet.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From m-syork at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 23:16:04 2008 From: m-syork at comcast.net (Mark York) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:16:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Message-ID: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Amici, I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my motor for the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine shop to ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a lightened one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the following: 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. Now here is where it gets a little weird: 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise 5) Install the spark plug / bolt 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact with the bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again contacts the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the spark plug (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does somebody have an easier way? The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. Doesn't this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? Confused in Seattle Mark PS: Thanks in advance From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 8 05:49:18 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 04:49:18 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Message-ID: <182D37CF-B49E-485E-9623-4407AF49EEBE@bnj.com> The piston-stop method is common and accurate for finding TDC. You just have to do it carefully and do it a couple of times to make sure of your results. The bolt shouldn't be welded. What you want to do is beat the guts out of a spark plug and thread the inside to accept a long bolt. Grind a flat on one side of the bolt to release the air (you MUST do this on the compression stroke) and a rounded nose on the side that meets the piston. Get an approximate idea of the length Youl need by bringing the engine to TDC by turning it slowly and feeling when it stops pushing air with your thumb over the spark plug hole and then measuring with a narrow ruler. Set your bolt to a little longer than that and lock it down with a lock nut (on the outside of course). Bring the engine up on compression you start to feel pressure with your thumb, put in the stop in, continue rotation until you feel a solid stop. Mark that point on your balancer. Then rotate backwards until you hit the stop again. Mark the point. TDC is exactly in the middle between those points. It's not 17 degrees--the stopping point is arbitrary and varies with the length of the stop. The key is that BOTH points are the same distance before TDC. This is much more precise than using a degree whell, and in fact is the way you set up a degree wheel even if the head is off. The dead spot when a piston travels over TDC is about three degrees wide. Even with a good dia; indicator the stop method is more accurate. On Jun 7, 2008, at 10:16 PM, Mark York wrote: > Amici, > > I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my > motor for > the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, > crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine > shop to > ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a > lightened > one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the > following: > > 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the > exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) > > 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. > > Now here is where it gets a little weird: > > 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. > > 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise > > 5) Install the spark plug / bolt > > 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact > with the > bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point > > 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again > contacts > the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. > > The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. > > My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the > spark plug > (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does > somebody have an easier way? > > The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. > Doesn't > this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? > > Confused in Seattle > > Mark > > > > PS: Thanks in advance > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From BillDentin at aol.com Sun Jun 8 09:40:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:40:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] Blackhawk Vintage Classic XVI Message-ID: Amici... Those who use 'Track Time' as the ruler for judging a vintage racing event's worth need to visit www.vscda.org and check out the Tentative Schedule for track times at the 16th Annual Blackhawk Vintage Classic. Friday (which can be bought as a half or full day) has five sessions per group. Saturday each race groups has two practice sessions, a qualifying session, and a Sprint Race. The 'bug eyes' also have a 12 Lap Sprite 50th Anniversary Reunion Challenge Series Race. Sunday sees each race group getting a warm up session, a 'Handicapped Race,' and a Feature Race. In addition there is a separate Formula Vee series race and a 'Small Bore Grand Prix.' Not many sanctioning bodies run 'Handicapped Races', because they are involve a lot of busy work, but they've become a tradition at the Blackhawk Vintage Classic. It involves a 'staggered start' based on your best Sprint Race lap times. The fast cars try to catch the slower cars. I was leading last year's handicapped race, only to run out of gas with three turns to go. Shame on me, but running out of gas is another development of 'too much track time.' Look it over. Blackhawk Farms is a premier club track. It has a new owner who has made lots of improvements. Modern rest rooms, hot water, new Tech building, and more. If you are available, this event is a very good deal. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From KENMUN at aol.com Sun Jun 8 14:37:59 2008 From: KENMUN at aol.com (KENMUN at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:37:59 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Sun Jun 8 15:27:34 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:27:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806082127.m58LReqx131521@ns3.geneseo.net> Sure. The overheating problem has an ultimate solution. We've tried the usual list of water wetter, better ducting, better pumps, and all that stuff and never was able to make much of an improvement. The real solution is to convert to an aluminum Ford- or Chevy style radiator. Even full of coolant, it weighs a lot less than a stock copper radiator. And it's cheap! You can get one of these radiators for under $200. It takes replumbing, which is easy, and mounting, which isn't too hard, and a re-do of your ducting. I have to use a thermostat to keep the engine hot enough. This radiator is much wider than the stock one so it presents a bigger area to the incoming air. I don't have pictures on a website, but I'll send you pictures of mine if you want to see how I did it. At 03:37 PM 6/8/2008, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: >fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear >and not many >long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the >temp going up >on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd >come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i >turned the car >off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. >i've got >the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well >sealed so the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening >with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? >thanks for any >comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > >**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as vinttr4 at geneseo.net uncle jack From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 8 17:00:31 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:00:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89C258F3-A964-4824-A9F6-951B2087D57C@bnj.com> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater TR3 made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a radiator made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by the air over the radiator when the car is moving. On Jun 8, 2008, at 1:37 PM, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: > fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the > racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear > and not many > long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the > temp going up > on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f > +) i'd > come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i > turned the car > off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. > i've got > the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well > sealed so the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill > opening > with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, > overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? > thanks for any > comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking > with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 8 17:13:41 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:13:41 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR3 4 PARTS FOR SALE Message-ID: <003201c8c9bd$4c1e5f80$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello Gang...A friend of mine is cleaning house a bit...he has the following for sale..located in contra costa county, california TR4 engine complete with stromberg carbs and performance header 750.00..will run 3 tr3 trannys at 150.00 each.( 1 is dissasembled) lots of TR3 4 starters, generators..cores tr3 brake drums....and rotors.. tr3 water pump housings, etc.. 2 tr3 front nose body pieces lots of TR3 odds and ends Serious offers ok on everything Bud Morris is a very nice elderly Gentleman who has restored tr3s for about 50 years...you can email me, or call Bud at 925 935 5477 Thanks Racer Bud From spiwakd at aol.com Sun Jun 8 17:42:32 2008 From: spiwakd at aol.com (David Spiwak) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:42:32 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101c8c9c1$5284dfd0$f78e9f70$@com> I had that problem with my TR3 years ago, but now my car rarely gets over 180 during a race. You have to trap all the air that is going around your radiator and force it through the radiator. Use aluminum flashing and sheet metal screws or pop rivets. It is more difficult with a large-mouth nose. The small- mouth was easier and more effective. If your oil cooler is blocking the flow, you will have to move it. I used to have the oil cooler mounted on the side of the radiator. At present I don't need a cooler at all. My radiator is stock. I removed the fan and mounted an electric one behind the radiator for use on the grid. You don't need a fan while moving. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 4:38 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spiwakd at aol.com From grandwazoo at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 18:02:04 2008 From: grandwazoo at earthlink.net (Mike Jackson) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:02:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Babcock >Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >To: KENMUN at aol.com >Cc: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater TR3 >made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a radiator >made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >the air over the radiator when the car is moving. > >On Jun 8, 2008, at 1:37 PM, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: > >> fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >> racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear >> and not many >> long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the >> temp going up >> on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f >> +) i'd >> come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i >> turned the car >> off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. >> i've got >> the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well >> sealed so the >> air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill >> opening >> with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >> overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? >> thanks for any >> comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer >> >> >> >> **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking >> with >> Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >> (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? >> &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > >Bill Babcock >Babcock & Jenkins >Billb at bnj.com >503.936.7660 >www.bnj.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as grandwazoo at earthlink.net From grandwazoo at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 18:03:41 2008 From: grandwazoo at earthlink.net (Mike Jackson) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:03:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: <1113837.1212969821127.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> get rid of the fan. Even an electric behind the radiator damages some flow Mike -----Original Message----- >From: David Spiwak >Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:42 PM >To: KENMUN at aol.com, fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >I had that problem with my TR3 years ago, but now my car rarely gets over >180 during a race. You have to trap all the air that is going around your >radiator and force it through the radiator. Use aluminum flashing and sheet >metal screws or pop rivets. It is more difficult with a large-mouth nose. >The small- mouth was easier and more effective. If your oil cooler is >blocking the flow, you will have to move it. I used to have the oil cooler >mounted on the side of the radiator. At present I don't need a cooler at >all. My radiator is stock. I removed the fan and mounted an electric one >behind the radiator for use on the grid. You don't need a fan while moving. > >-----Original Message----- >From: fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net >[mailto:fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of >KENMUN at aol.com >Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 4:38 PM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not >many >long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going >up >on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd >come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the >car >off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've >got >the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so >the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening >with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks >for any >comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > >**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as spiwakd at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as grandwazoo at earthlink.net From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 8 18:31:14 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:31:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] tr3/4 oil filter canister Message-ID: <007301c8c9c8$20571800$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello gang..does anyone have an old tr3/4 oil filter canister? if so, please email Dean Beaupre at dabeaupre at gmail.com Thanks Racer Bud From jhassall at blacksburg.net Sun Jun 8 18:43:10 2008 From: jhassall at blacksburg.net (J.C. Hassall) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 20:43:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] anyone going from South Beach OR to the LA area? Message-ID: <0K26008H97AQUSTO@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Amci, A friend's TR3 engine has been rebuilt in South Beach, Oregon.....it's next to Newport, OR, and it will soon be ready to come home to the LA area. Anyone travelling that route who would be willing to haul it back? If so, pls contact Steve directly at banjonut at verizon.net. TIA jim -- J.C. Hassall Blacksburg VA '63 TR4 in autox preparation 96% finished, 90% to go From mark at bradakis.com Sun Jun 8 21:25:54 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:25:54 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Message-ID: <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> > 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. > > What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 degrees will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the distributor position to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC ready to fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" instead of the number 1 cylinder. In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a cylinder occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. The blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the rock, given a basic, symmetrical cam grind. The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't matter, though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the two marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is halfway between the two. mjb. PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. From charly at mitchelplumbing.com Sun Jun 8 21:52:23 2008 From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly Mitchel) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:52:23 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Message-ID: <8cd17def7ae542588567c508a00e1fc4@mitchelplumbing.com> Mark, I have a tdc tool you screw into the spark plug hole. Charly ---------------------------------------- From: "Mark York" Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:16 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Amici, I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my motor for the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine shop to ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a lightened one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the following: 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. Now here is where it gets a little weird: 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise 5) Install the spark plug / bolt 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact with the bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again contacts the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the spark plug (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does somebody have an easier way? The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. Doesn't this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? Confused in Seattle Mark PS: Thanks in advance Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 03:50:52 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 11:50:52 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had the same trouble in year 2005 when I used copper head gaskets. At full throttle I had blow by at the gasket at cylinder #2 and #3. I have run the engine hundreds of miles on the autobahn at cruising speed with no evidence of blow by but on the track the radiator was emptied within 5 laps. I passed on to steel head gaskets and since then all trouble disappeared and I never had any overheating. I use a simple copper core radiator of the size the TR4a had and that works very fine. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von KENMUN at aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Juni 2008 22:38 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 04:07:31 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:07:31 +0200 Subject: [Fot] WG: cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: BTW the radiator I use is a 2 row one taken out of a Opel Manta. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of DSCN0339.JPG] From jsnook at wcnet.org Mon Jun 9 07:16:14 2008 From: jsnook at wcnet.org (Jeff Snook) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:16:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 References: Message-ID: <005601c8ca32$fe9c70a0$6701a8c0@JeffSnook> I put in an aluminum radiator from Wizard Cooling a couple years ago. Duplicate of the original TR3, but much more efficient. No problems anymore with water temps and I don't run any kind of fan. Now I just have to get the oil temps a little cooler on those hot summer days. Put in a wider oil cooler this winter and it stills runs a little hotter than we would like! Vroom, vroom, Jeff Snook http://www.snooksdreamcars.com ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx To: KENMUN at aol.com ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 I had the same trouble in year 2005 when I used copper head gaskets. At full throttle I had blow by at the gasket at cylinder #2 and #3. I have run the engine hundreds of miles on the autobahn at cruising speed with no evidence of blow by but on the track the radiator was emptied within 5 laps. I passed on to steel head gaskets and since then all trouble disappeared and I never had any overheating. I use a simple copper core radiator of the size the TR4a had and that works very fine. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von KENMUN at aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Juni 2008 22:38 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jsnook_gmi at wcnet.org From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 9 07:34:12 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:34:12 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Message-ID: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack From pvucinic at netspace.net.au Mon Jun 9 08:00:57 2008 From: pvucinic at netspace.net.au (Peter Vucinic) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:00:57 +1000 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: Jack, A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a marginal difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the 'new' Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result of 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the radiators single, double or triple pass? -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack W. Drews Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 9 08:16:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:16:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: In a message dated 06/08/2008 3:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time, KENMUN at aol.com writes: > fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the > racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not > many > long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going > up > on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd > come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the > car > off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've > got > the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so > the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening > with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, > overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks > for any > comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > Sounds like you may have a system that needs to be burped. Sure you don't have an air bubble or bubbles in the system? Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 9 08:37:54 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:37:54 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Mon Jun 9 10:46:30 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <96651.52317.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think one good point that Mike made is the opening of the "hole" in the apron. No matter what media is used for the radiator the stock TR2-3 apron blocks airflow to the lower third of the radiator. On Randy W's car I cut the sheet metal in the apron the width of the radiator and angled it down to allow the air to flow to this lower third. I fabricated triangular metal pieces to fill the ends and spotwelded them in. The only down side is that it does away with having the ability to use a handcrank :o( (that's a joke folks). I'm also surprised nobody has discussed the role that the bypass is playing. Thanks - Ed - Bill Babcock wrote: My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 9 11:21:23 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] TR6 at Devens SCCA Solo National Tour Message-ID: Hi, I ran the SCCA solo NT event this weekend past. That means both as an entrant and as the event co-chair. WHEW, am I tired. The car ran fine, I was a little slow dialing in the new tires (I changed to Hoosier slicks), but wound up with respectable times. At any rate, there's some pix posted on the NER forums... one is: http://www.ner.org/v/solo/2008tour/kc/heat2/IMG_8352.JPG.html There were three Triumphs running, Bob Totten (D Mod Spitfire GT), Dean van de Carr (E Mod TR6 (with V8 grrrrrrrunt) and Bob Lang (F prepared TR6) Lots of fun. On the ride home, one of my truck's calipers stuck on. Lots of smoke, but no fire. Before I removed the wheel, I used the pyrometer to check the temps... the caliper was 400+. Yeow! We're getting new parts on there today. :-) It was sure nice to drive my TRiumph again! rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list at mackenzie.aero Mon Jun 9 12:46:09 2008 From: list at mackenzie.aero (Robert MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:46:09 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 at Devens SCCA Solo National Tour (Robert Lang) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004501c8ca61$15c0e260$4142a720$@aero> >It was sure nice to drive my TRiumph again! >Rml I ran my '62 Spit in the SCCA Southwest Solo Divisional Race #2 over the weekend. The two day event was held at the Cooper Tire test center in Pearsall, TX. (Thanx Cooper Tires!) I had some "issues" with the car and frankly did not drive as well as I could have, nevertheless, I managed to post some decent times on the 2nd day and got second place in GP. With two seconds in two events, I now have a 3 point lead in the Divisional Championship going into next month's event in Houston. Robert MacKenzie 79 Spitfire 1500 (Street) 62 Spitfire Mk1 (Race) Cedar Park, TX From fubog1 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 12:58:10 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:58:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> References: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <8CA9879E5102256-F10-50E@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... Glen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Babcock To: Mike Jackson Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:37 am Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 9 13:32:46 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:32:46 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, fubog1 at aol.com writes: > yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. > It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. > > I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do > AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... > Glen... I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From fubog1 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 13:53:39 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:53:39 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> OK Bill I'll check the next time I look in a mirror, but that ain't very often! Seriously, Mikes normal rev limit is around 6000 rpm, with the standard do-not-exceed 109% rating applied. Now, the un-named driver of a certain WHITE TR-3 is another story. He has to have the recall tach, ha ha! Glen -----Original Message----- From: BillDentin at aol.com To: Fubog1 at aol.com; Billb at bnj.com; grandwazoo at earthlink.net Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, fubog1 at aol.com writes: > yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. > It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. > > I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do > AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... > Glen... I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 9 15:01:04 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:01:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <82AD9699-59B7-4562-AB83-BC459EF18DC2@bnj.com> There's not much useful past 6K anyway, other than just not needing to lift in a long straight. The TR head just won't breathe that fast. I use 6K as a shift point and gear for 6500 as the upper limit based on the longest straights I run. that's a 3.9 rear end for the west coast tracks, but I ran a 3.7 last year to cover tracks I wasn't familiar with. I'm sure a steel crank motor will rev higher with reasonable reliability, but it won't do much. I just think feathering the throttle near the end of a straight is hard on things. My cheater TR3 was 92mm, and the motor was hyper-aggressive in every way except it had a nitrided cast iron crank with radiuses welded and ground in all the stress risers--not steel. The radiator is about twice the size of a TR3. There's no way a TR3 radiator would have managed that motor, even with a different core. Tried it, didn't like it. Peyote has a much milder motor--probably 130HP, was 89 MM, now 87 MM, steel crank, etc.. The radiator is from some odd LBC but its about 1.5 times the area of a TR radiator. If I have cooling problems I know something is wrong. Sometimes blowby, sometimes advance, sometimes an air leak or wrong jetting. I tend to jet my carburetors aggressively to the lean side. Car guys that look at my plugs think my motor is about to blow. Old motorcycle habits. I like a little shade of tan at the base of the insulator after a clean plug chop with new plugs. On a dyno the same jets show dead white but don't blister or toast the electrodes and don't burn anything. I'm very fond of having a lot of cooling margin. I like to be able to adjust the cooling with a thermostat or an orifice rather than hope the car doesn't overheat. On Jun 9, 2008, at 12:53 PM, fubog1 at aol.com wrote: > OK Bill I'll check the next time I look in a mirror, but that ain't > very often! > > Seriously, Mikes normal rev limit is around 6000 rpm, with the > standard do-not-exceed 109% rating applied. > Now, the un-named driver of a certain WHITE TR-3 is another story. > He has to have the recall tach, ha ha! > Glen > > -----Original Message----- > From: BillDentin at aol.com > To: Fubog1 at aol.com; Billb at bnj.com; grandwazoo at earthlink.net > Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com > Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 3:32 pm > Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > > In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, > fubog1 at aol.com writes: > > >> yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. >> It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. >> >> I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should > do >> AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... >> > > Glen... > > I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. > > Bill Dentinger > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& > NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com > > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Mon Jun 9 15:56:24 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:56:24 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: I have the TR4A Wizard radiator. It cools just fine here in Texas, so cool that I have to run a thermostat. The only problem with it is that the upper hose outlet is at the wrong angle. Make sure you ask if he has fixed his design before you buy one for your car. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack W. Drews Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 8:34 AM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 16:18:59 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:18:59 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a row....the first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I tried to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any air flow. Cheers Chris From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 9 16:48:11 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:48:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net><925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> One and maybe the main reason for a larger radiator with more tubes is the total volume of water or coolant contained and that is the important part, Same with oil. ----- Original Message ----- From: "MadMarx" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a > row....the > first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the > following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. > > So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around > useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. > So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I > tried > to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very > flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any > air > flow. > > Cheers > Chris > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 17:04:13 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:04:13 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net><925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: Very true. The best compromise should be a wide radiator with lots of tubes in a line. My radiator has 68 tubes in two rows, which are 10 tubes more than the stock radiator has. Every time I breath the throttle for several seconds the temperature drops about 10 degree C. -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Kas Kastner Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Juni 2008 00:48 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 One and maybe the main reason for a larger radiator with more tubes is the total volume of water or coolant contained and that is the important part, Same with oil. From dtalbott at archrepro.com Mon Jun 9 17:25:59 2008 From: dtalbott at archrepro.com (David Talbott) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:25:59 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this suckin', squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You take that to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 RPM's, and that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to get a feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in on the two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents like ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. DT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J Bradakis" To: Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC >> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >> >> > What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 > degrees > will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the distributor > position > to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC ready to > fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" > instead of > the number 1 cylinder. > > In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a cylinder > occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. The > blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the rock, given > a basic, symmetrical cam grind. > > The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't matter, > though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the two > marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is > halfway between the two. > > mjb. > > PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of > email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 9 18:46:40 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:46:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> Message-ID: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv From spitlist at cox.net Mon Jun 9 18:52:53 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:52:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> I knew that! No, really, I knew that! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas Kastner Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From colordog.1 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 19:27:37 2008 From: colordog.1 at earthlink.net (Steven Belfer) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:27:37 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> what's a dingle arm? ~Steve On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > I knew that! No, really, I knew that! > > Joe C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas > Kastner > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports > > This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most > racers. I > could not keep it any longer. > > http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net From spitlist at cox.net Mon Jun 9 19:31:42 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:31:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000101c8ca99$bcf8fb20$0302a8c0@newcomputer> That's the part where the berries sprout! -----Original Message----- From: Steven Belfer [mailto:colordog.1 at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 6:28 PM To: Joe Curry Cc: 'Kas Kastner'; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Camshafts & ports what's a dingle arm? ~Steve On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > I knew that! No, really, I knew that! > > Joe C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas > Kastner > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports > > This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most > racers. I > could not keep it any longer. > > http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 9 19:32:04 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:32:04 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports Message-ID: <6965FF70.0CF3CC9A.00159EE9@cs.com> Steven Belfer wrote: >what's a dingle arm? it's right in front of the dingle berry. > >~Steve > >On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > >> I knew that! No, really, I knew that! >> >> Joe C. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net >> [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas >> Kastner >> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM >> To: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports >> >> This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most >> racers. I >> could not keep it any longer. >> >> http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 10 06:55:06 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <820724.66800.qm@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There really is a Rockwell Automation division of Rockwell International. At one time Goss International, my employer, was owned by Rockwell International. We used Rockwell Automation to control a newspaper printing press drive line, big stuff like controlling multiple 200 HP DC motors. Our electrical engineers are going to get a real kick out of this. Kas Kastner wrote: This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as sbracing at sbcglobal.net From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 10 07:02:49 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Non FOT - Funny Vid Of Machine Tool Use Message-ID: <42430.48713.qm@web81001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.poetv. com/video. php?vid=34186 Since we are showing fun vids, I thought I would add this one. Those with a machine tool back ground will really enjoy this. From Billb at bnj.com Tue Jun 10 09:32:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:32:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> Message-ID: <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> One of the reasons I always liked two strokes--suck and squeeze happens at the same time, the challenging part is that so do bang and blow. On Jun 9, 2008, at 4:25 PM, David Talbott wrote: > Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this > suckin', > squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You > take that > to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 > RPM's, and > that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to > get a > feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in > on the > two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents > like > ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. > > DT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark J Bradakis" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC > > >>> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >>> >>> >> What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 >> degrees >> will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the >> distributor >> position >> to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC >> ready to >> fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" >> instead of >> the number 1 cylinder. >> >> In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a >> cylinder >> occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. >> The >> blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the >> rock, given >> a basic, symmetrical cam grind. >> >> The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't >> matter, >> though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the >> two >> marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is >> halfway between the two. >> >> mjb. >> >> PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of >> email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From vintage.racer at comcast.net Tue Jun 10 09:55:28 2008 From: vintage.racer at comcast.net (Gary Horstkorta) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000001c8cb12$680fe0a0$382fa1e0$@racer@comcast.net> No wonder those engines sound like they're always screaming! Gary -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+vintage.racer=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+vintage.racer=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:32 AM To: David Talbott Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC One of the reasons I always liked two strokes--suck and squeeze happens at the same time, the challenging part is that so do bang and blow. On Jun 9, 2008, at 4:25 PM, David Talbott wrote: > Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this > suckin', > squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You > take that > to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 > RPM's, and > that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to > get a > feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in > on the > two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents > like > ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. > > DT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark J Bradakis" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC > > >>> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >>> >>> >> What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 >> degrees >> will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the >> distributor >> position >> to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC >> ready to >> fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" >> instead of >> the number 1 cylinder. >> >> In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a >> cylinder >> occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. >> The >> blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the >> rock, given >> a basic, symmetrical cam grind. >> >> The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't >> matter, >> though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the >> two >> marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is >> halfway between the two. >> >> mjb. >> >> PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of >> email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as vintage.racer at comcast.net From timmurph at fastbytes.com Tue Jun 10 21:25:53 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:25:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <003c01c8cb72$db15fa20$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> In the winter of 2007 we worked with Wizard Cooling, Inc. 6149 Powers Road Orchard Park, NY 14127 Telephone 716-662-2392 on an aluminum radiator for our 1961 TR4 race car. We had an original long neck, shortened for the TR4 with the hole in the center for the crank. Even though we had it boiled out it just didn't do the job. I worked with Scott at Wizard Cooling (scott at wizardcooling.com) to design the radiator. It was based on the long neck TR3 radiator they had previously built. We already had the oil cooler and all the mounting and hoses set for the stock radiator so we wanted to keep more or less stock shape and size. It is aluminum and fits the stock mounting. The radiator cap is on a "dropped" ledge so it can clear the hood. It is a little bit thicker than the stock one. It has worked exceptionally well for us. No overheating problems at all. We run about 180 degrees, maybe too cool! Essentially we got the "prototype" and they are now tooled up and have the drawings to make others. It may even be shown on their e-bay store by now. I can send photos of the installation if anyone is interested. I recommend Wizard Cooling and Scott. They did a great job. No commercial interest on my part. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack W. Drews" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From N197TR4 at cs.com Wed Jun 11 08:09:57 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:09:57 EDT Subject: [Fot] Cedar Falls??? now Iowa: The Field of Screams Message-ID: Joe, I know you are pretty close to the floodwater, you guys OK? Henry Frye Triumph Technology Consultants 860.653.3118 (o) - 860.508.3118 (m) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------- Henry, Between tornados and floods we have dodged all bullets. My sister-in-law's house disappeared entirely. Her husband is Parkersburg's Director of Economic Development and gets to start all over again. Some of Iowa is now in Wisconsin. More of it will end up in the Gulf of Mexico Bizarre! But we are high, dry and unmolested. Thanks for asking......and others. See you at Mosport. Joe A From cartravel at pobox.com Wed Jun 11 12:38:34 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:38:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <48501BAA.7090802@pobox.com> Chris, The validity of your reasoning depends on the air flow. If you have enough air flow, you will have less heating of the air as it moves through. I agree though that it is better to have a large frontal area. On my TR3, I tried what everyone else has suggested. Finally, I installed one of the commodity ($150) Chevy radiators. It has about 1 inch clearance on each side. I've run it in 100 degree heat with no problems. I agree with what Bill says. When you have a large safety margin you know something is wrong when you get overheating. When racing, you have enough to worry about, so this eliminates one worry. Larry Young MadMarx wrote: > The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a row....the > first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the > following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. > > So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around > useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. > So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I tried > to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very > flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any air > flow. > > Cheers > Chris > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Wed Jun 11 17:33:02 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:33:02 -0400 Subject: [Fot] No Lbc No free lunch Message-ID: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I took my 1994 Honda Accord ( 50k miles on it ) to Valvoline quickie oil change for a free A/c check. It's not working well. 45 mins later the tec told me it was either a relay or the compressor. While he was working with a meter the car almost stalled out but not quite. He also admitted he did not know which relay was which 10 miles after leaving the shop and with out the A/c on the compressor suddenly kicked in. It felt and sounded like a J brake being engaged. It has settled down some what but still makes a loud noise. So far I am getting a song and a dance from these guy's and no satisfactory explanation. Any info is appreciated thanks rob From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jun 11 17:44:46 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:44:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] No Lbc No free lunch In-Reply-To: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> References: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> Message-ID: <004101c8cc1d$217cbd00$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > 45 mins > later the tec > told me it was either a relay or the compressor. Meaning he couldn't figure out if the clutch was getting juice, or even whether it was engaged or not. My advice : Take it to someone who knows what they are doing. Any reputable A/C shop (many radiator shops also do A/C) should be able to give you a free estimate that is actually worth something. The loud noise doesn't sound good either. Might be a combination of electrical and refrigeration problems. Randall From henry at henryfrye.com Fri Jun 13 05:37:07 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:37:07 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Brad Penn Racing Oil at Mosport Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060013@server.Triumph.local> To those of us going to Mosport next week, I found a place local to me carrying the whole line of Brad Penn racing oils. If anybody wants me to bring them a case or more, contact me off list. Cheers Henry Frye Triumph Technology Consultants 860.653.3118 (o) - 860.508.3118 (m) From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Fri Jun 13 12:44:34 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:44:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed Message-ID: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. Does anyone know of another source? uncle jack From N197TR4 at cs.com Fri Jun 13 13:11:18 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:11:18 EDT Subject: [Fot] trans part needed Message-ID: In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 13 13:26:53 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:26:53 -0400 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005b01c8cd8b$6ffb7d80$4ff27880$@net> Moss has the top hat in stock- . Check w/ Dave Hagenbuch at TRF. He's off today but will be there tomorrow I believe. I used to know what gears one could interchange from one model to others but it went away when the grey hair arrived. It would be great if that information could be reestablished and put somewhere we could all access it. I have a bunch of NOS TR-6 gears but am unsure where else they can go. Anyone have a better memory than I do?? Russ Moore -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of N197TR4 at cs.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 3:11 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rem9 at frontiernet.net From budscars at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 13:47:12 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:47:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed References: Message-ID: <000801c8cd8e$46e14e40$0202a8c0@Bud> try FASPEC in Portland Oregon...Bob Bray.. info at faspec.com Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed > In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, > vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > > >> I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. >> Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I >> got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John >> Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. >> >> Does anyone know of another source? >> >> > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From cartravel at pobox.com Fri Jun 13 17:09:57 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:09:57 -0500 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> I ran into the problem with wrong sized tophat bushings about 5 or 6 years ago. I had to order a couple of bushings from Racestorations at great expense. I pointed the problem out to Moss and thought it had been corrected. I think I've ordered correct ones from US sources since then. Try some of the other sources and ask them to pull one from stock and measure it. Larry Young Jack W. Drews wrote: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com From timmurph at fastbytes.com Fri Jun 13 20:46:54 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:46:54 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Vucinic" To: "'Jack W. Drews'" ; Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Jack, > A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a > marginal > difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over > Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's > Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling > temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are > seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the > 'new' > Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result > of > 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the > radiators single, double or triple pass? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Jack W. Drews > Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au > > __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 13 23:01:29 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:01:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: <20080614050129.JSUV7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an > explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than > copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, > but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Interesting line on that page : "Anyone suggesting you deviate from an original brass copper radiator either doesn't know any better or just wants to sell you what's in stock." I wonder which one applies to Wizard ? Randall From tr4racing at googlemail.com Sat Jun 14 05:02:00 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:02:00 +0200 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: When I look back on my testing with aluminum radiators, most of them have round tubes. Aerodynamic of a round tube is not good compared with a flat tube like most of the copper radiators has. So there is a balance....bad flow through a radiator with big coolant volume in round tubes or less coolant in a copper core with very good heat transfer. I think both will work. Maybe a big aluminum radiator is a way to go. Chris TR 4 #74 -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Tim Murphy Gesendet: Samstag, 14. Juni 2008 04:47 An: Peter Vucinic; 'Jack W. Drews'; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 From dos_gusanos at msn.com Sat Jun 14 05:55:55 2008 From: dos_gusanos at msn.com (dos_gusanos at msn.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 05:55:55 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR4 Block Available Message-ID: Anyone want a TR3-4 engine block? It's in Salt Lake free for the taking or it get's scrapped. Henry Morrison From fubog1 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 07:20:23 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:20:23 -0400 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> References: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: <8CA9C38893A7DC5-620-472C@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com> There are many many variables in radiator design. Dimensions, crossflow vs vertical tube, core thickness, number of tubes, tube size, staggered vs in-line tubes, fin design, fin count... It's a lot more than just aluminum vs copper/brass. Air flow is just as important as the core (heat exchanger). Glen runnin' cool in florida -----Original Message----- From: Tim Murphy To: Peter Vucinic ; 'Jack W. Drews' ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Vucinic" To: "'Jack W. Drews'" ; Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Jack, > A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a > marginal > difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over > Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's > Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling > temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are > seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the > 'new' > Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result > of > 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the > radiators single, double or triple pass? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Jack W. Drews > Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au > > __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From REK46 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 08:40:24 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:40:24 EDT Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Message-ID: Except for a few low volume,old fashioned mfgrs in europe, all OEMS use flat rad tubes that they make themselves from brazing sheet alum and roll-form/welded tubes....This has been since the 80s when they all converted from copper to alum..These rads are Nokolok brazed with the fin ,tube and headers and have far superior heat transfer by design and matls than copper, and no lead or hazards...They can be stacked and lengthend to any size and fin count....Try Griffin Rad, they bought the Ford process and equip and make an excellent and cold rad to any dimension or fittings....except they use alum tanks and welds instead of the OEM plastic and Orings on the headers. I know..I sold 80% of the alum to all the OEMs for 20 yrs ************** Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) From N197TR4 at cs.com Sat Jun 14 09:27:00 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:27:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] Robert Johns TR2 Racer from the early 50s The Glen? Message-ID: FOT, I dont know Robert Johns or of him, but I am in the process of extending an invitation to him at the Glen. Blake Discher of VTR has encountered him at the TRA Convention in Erie at this very moment. I hear from Blake that his credentials include co-driving with Mike Rothschild in Florida in 1957. 12 Hours of Endurance. Mordy, do have knowledge or visibility to Robert Johns? He would make a great addition to our Paddock as he is still actively involved in Triumphs and likel has a wealth of history. Anyone else know him....Kas? Joe Alexander From cwn74 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 21:09:40 2008 From: cwn74 at aol.com (Clark W. Nicholls) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:09:40 -0400 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> References: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001901c8ce95$41926020$1442a8c0@semperon3400> John is at john at quantumechanics.com and johnesposito at earthlink.net His phone is 203-459-9612 Sometimes he's hard to get ahold of... Clark Clark W. Nicholls '72 Stag '74 Spitfire "Reality... It's not what you think." -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+cwn74=aol.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+cwn74=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Larry Young Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:10 PM To: Jack W. Drews Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed I ran into the problem with wrong sized tophat bushings about 5 or 6 years ago. I had to order a couple of bushings from Racestorations at great expense. I pointed the problem out to Moss and thought it had been corrected. I think I've ordered correct ones from US sources since then. Try some of the other sources and ask them to pull one from stock and measure it. Larry Young Jack W. Drews wrote: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I got > from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John Esposito > of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as cwn74 at aol.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 15 12:16:20 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:16:20 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day Message-ID: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> Happy Father's Day gang Racer Bud Spitfire #21 From roadandtrack at bigpond.com Sun Jun 15 19:14:35 2008 From: roadandtrack at bigpond.com (Terry and Cindy) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:14:35 +1000 Subject: [Fot] spitfire & herald gearbox parts new In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080616011434.USWX9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@Rat01> I have a small number of new old stock gearbox gears, hubs etc for the early herald and I think, spitfire gearboxes. I know these are different to later Mk2 onwards boxes as they have smaller syncros. Anyone interested can email me. Thanks, terry From jerrybarr at charter.net Mon Jun 16 07:31:19 2008 From: jerrybarr at charter.net (Jerry Barr) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:31:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Rocker ratio Message-ID: <347A7614-8CFE-461E-B6A0-0E388915421F@charter.net> Good Morning Group, Anyone know the standard rocker ratio for the 1296cc Spitfire engine? Also what ratio roller rockers are being used on this engine. Thanks, Jerry Barr From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 16 08:43:44 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day In-Reply-To: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> References: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, RACER BUD wrote: > Happy Father's Day gang > Racer Bud > Spitfire #21 Do you work for Hallmark? :-) I spent all day working on my children (and my buddy's child), all 73 or 74 TR6s. rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ehusmann53 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 09:07:38 2008 From: ehusmann53 at yahoo.com (Ernest Husmann) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <104577.34719.qm@web57603.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Racer Bud definately does not work for Hallmark.  If he did then you would be able to find cards with Spitfires and other Triumphs gracing the art work. --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Robert Lang <lang at isis.mit.edu> wrote: From: Robert Lang <lang at isis.mit.edu> Subject: Re: [Fot] Happy Father's Day To: "RACER BUD" <budscars at comcast.net> Cc: fot at autox.team.net Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:43 AM On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, RACER BUD wrote: > Happy Father's Day gang > Racer Bud > Spitfire #21 Do you work for Hallmark? :-) I spent all day working on my children (and my buddy's child), all 73 or 74 TR6s. rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ehusmann53 at yahoo.com From trmarty at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 10:25:05 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:25:05 -0400 Subject: [Fot] 1296 Spity leak Message-ID: I have a tired 1296 Spitfire that I am going to try and nurse through a couple of autox's. It has a pretty good oil seepage between the block and head on the drivers side about mid-engine. The engine has quite a bit of blowby going on. It also has a brand new head gasket. Do you think it could be the blowby pressurizing things and pushing the oil out? I do have the block and valve cover vented to bleed off some of the pressure. I am pondering re-replacing the head gasket but I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to do it for two autox's:), especially if it's the blowby causing the seepage and a new head gasket wouldn't fix it. Your thoughts? Oh, head is dead flat and block is pretty flat. Thanks, Marty _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Tue Jun 17 05:16:41 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:16:41 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats Message-ID: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about this one: Why do top hat bushings break? uncle jack From RustyTR4 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 06:41:41 2008 From: RustyTR4 at aol.com (RustyTR4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:41:41 EDT Subject: [Fot] top hats Message-ID: I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From pvucinic at netspace.net.au Tue Jun 17 07:25:29 2008 From: pvucinic at netspace.net.au (Peter Vucinic) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:25:29 +1000 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have a rotational/twisting force/pressure and a thrust/longitudinal pressure all acting on the same piece of bronze/component, all at the same time and/or in any combination at any time. Along with this factor is the lack of a decent internal radius where there thrust portion of the bush meets the journal portion of the bush. This leads to a 'weak' area where these two features meet, and as a result of 'point loading' at this position, the thrust portion of the bush usually 'breaks' away from the bush portion. We'll that's my take on the problem! Kind Regards Peter Vucinic TR-4 WORKS Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of RustyTR4 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 June 2008 10:42 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3193 (20080617) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From fubog1 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 09:09:05 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:09:05 -0400 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9EA3377C775A-BEC-FD8@MBLK-M09.sysops.aol.com> Yes I think all is true & contributes to the failure but the endfloat is the killer. There's a lot of shock thrust load going on in there during on/off throttle, especially when second comes up against third, & the tophat is supported only by contact with the end of the third gear bush. Glen -----Original Message----- From: Peter Vucinic To: RustyTR4 at aol.com; vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 9:25 am Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats You have a rotational/twisting force/pressure and a thrust/longitudinal pressure all acting on the same piece of bronze/component, all at the same time and/or in any combination at any time. Along with this factor is the lack of a decent internal radius where there thrust portion of the bush meets the journal portion of the bush. This leads to a 'weak' area where these two features meet, and as a result of 'point loading' at this position, the thrust portion of the bush usually 'breaks' away from the bush portion. We'll that's my take on the problem! Kind Regards Peter Vucinic TR-4 WORKS Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of RustyTR4 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 June 2008 10:42 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3193 (20080617) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From cartravel at pobox.com Tue Jun 17 11:28:45 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:28:45 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran into the problem with wrong sized bushings. Larry Young > Jack W. Drews wrote: >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about >> this one: >> >> Why do top hat bushings break? >> >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 21:41:46 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:41:46 +1100 Subject: [Fot] top hats References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> This is what John Esposito found in the trans in my TR3/4 when he was swapping out the mainshaft to fit an O.D. unit. He marveled at the resourcefulness of the "adaptation" but advised rebuilding the trans while it was disassembled. (Actually sold me a rebuilt unit from the shelf that has leaked like a sieve since, but that's another story.) Granted, there were other problems he identified that figured into the prognosis, but I'm pretty certain I remember him saying that the seat in the trans case was worn beyond possible use with a standard type of bushing and that the separate thrust washer (made of highly polished steel with grooves cut into the wear face for lubing), would cause further and rapid wear of the case. Steve P.----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Young" To: "FOT" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and > a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran > into the problem with wrong sized bushings. > Larry Young > > Jack W. Drews wrote: > >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about > >> this one: > >> > >> Why do top hat bushings break? > >> > >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Tue Jun 17 12:50:46 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: Steve, That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top hat. With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Preiss Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:42 PM To: Larry Young Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats This is what John Esposito found in the trans in my TR3/4 when he was swapping out the mainshaft to fit an O.D. unit. He marveled at the resourcefulness of the "adaptation" but advised rebuilding the trans while it was disassembled. (Actually sold me a rebuilt unit from the shelf that has leaked like a sieve since, but that's another story.) Granted, there were other problems he identified that figured into the prognosis, but I'm pretty certain I remember him saying that the seat in the trans case was worn beyond possible use with a standard type of bushing and that the separate thrust washer (made of highly polished steel with grooves cut into the wear face for lubing), would cause further and rapid wear of the case. Steve P.----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Young" To: "FOT" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and > a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran > into the problem with wrong sized bushings. > Larry Young > > Jack W. Drews wrote: > >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about > >> this one: > >> > >> Why do top hat bushings break? > >> > >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jun 17 13:06:28 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:06:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top > hat. I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the mainshaft, with the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. > With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through > machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part of the case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial roller) bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so inadequate ? The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of course, the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got to solve that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & thrust washer. Randall From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Tue Jun 17 18:56:23 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Fiberglass Hood & Western Wheels for sale Message-ID: <866FC7B0-D01D-4AE2-A6AD-64BCBBB39B29@xsmail.com> I have a GT6 MkI MkII fiberglass hood for sale. Modified for SU Carb clearance. Mounting hardware fitted I also have 4 western pseudo-minilite wheels, 13x5.5, spitfire/gt6 bolt pattern, 4" backspacing. 3 black, 1 silver finish, the 3 black are mounted with old slicks. I'm offering up here before I put on fleabay this weekend... Photos of both are at the gallery link below. Contact me off-list if interested or have other questions.. Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher 1971 Spit MkIV/1500 RaceCar 1971 TR6 TBD 1976 TR7 Street 1968 GT6 Vintage "I'm so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. Its the excitement only a free man can feel. A free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain" From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Tue Jun 17 20:48:22 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Fot] top hats References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I would like to nominate uncle jack to make a run of new and improved top hats go Celts 41-67 3rd 1/4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats >> That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top >> hat. > > I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the mainshaft, with > the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. > >> With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through >> machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. > > Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part of the > case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial > roller) > bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so > inadequate ? > > The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of course, > the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got to solve > that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & thrust > washer. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From billsohl at optonline.net Tue Jun 17 21:06:26 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:06:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: NJTA 1966 TR-4A IRS FOR SALE Message-ID: FYI to the FOT. This is from my local Triumph club, the New Jersey Triumph Association. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: mewy at comcast.net I have a 1966 TR4A IRS that I need to sell. British Racing Green with Saddle interior. Tires and brakes have 5000 miles on them. Carbs rebuilt in Feb. 08. New stainless exhaust. Bill Dewar has done work on it in the past. Asking $5000.00. Available to be seen at any time. Call 862-219-8848. Thanks, Neil Pembridge From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 22:03:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:03:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> Message-ID: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> We don't need no stinking top hats, it was a bad design when they made them. We need a good thrust bearing, bearing face, and bushing. On Jun 17, 2008, at 7:48 PM, Rob wrote: > I would like to nominate uncle jack to make a run of new and > improved top > hats go Celts 41-67 3rd 1/4 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randall" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > > >>> That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top >>> hat. >> >> I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the >> mainshaft, with >> the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. >> >>> With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through >>> machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. >> >> Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part >> of the >> case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial >> roller) >> bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so >> inadequate ? >> >> The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of >> course, >> the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got >> to solve >> that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & >> thrust >> washer. >> >> Randall >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Tue Jun 17 22:39:26 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:39:26 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000601c8d0fd$4f5c6e20$0302a8c0@newcomputer> -----Original Message----- Bill said: We don't need no stinking top hats, No, all we need are Tams! We ain't gentlemen racers after all! Joe C. From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Wed Jun 18 08:15:53 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:15:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Top hats Message-ID: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Thanks for the responses to the question on the top hat bushing. I asked the question because of the latest rebuild of my transmission, with the usual struggle with the main shaft assembly and setting the end float on the bushings and gears. I've thought about this every time I've rebuilt a box. I don't understand what is happening in the gearbox that caused the designers to use this design bushing. There must be some reason. Several guys responded with the same thought that I had in mind, which is, why not make this assembly from a washer and bushings instead of using the top hat design? Spits don't have top hat bushings, and neither do a host of other cars. Too bad it would be such a time and effort consuming exercise to prove out in real life. I guess converting to one of the current production five speed boxes might have a better cost - benefit ratio. uncle jack From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 00:25:09 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Top hats References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack W. Drews" To: Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:15 AM Subject: [Fot] Top hats > Thanks for the responses to the question on the top hat bushing. > > I asked the question because of the latest rebuild of my > transmission, with the usual struggle with the main shaft assembly > and setting the end float on the bushings and gears. I've thought > about this every time I've rebuilt a box. I don't understand what is > happening in the gearbox that caused the designers to use this design > bushing. There must be some reason. > > Several guys responded with the same thought that I had in mind, > which is, why not make this assembly from a washer and bushings > instead of using the top hat design? Spits don't have top hat > bushings, and neither do a host of other cars. > > Too bad it would be such a time and effort consuming exercise to > prove out in real life. I guess converting to one of the current > production five speed boxes might have a better cost - benefit ratio. > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From fogbro1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 18 20:24:38 2008 From: fogbro1 at comcast.net (Ed Woods) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:24:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Top hats References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> Jack, Has anyone tried the Moss steel top hat bushing? What are the thoughts on using it with the brass 3rd speed bush? Ed From budscars at comcast.net Wed Jun 18 20:32:16 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Fot] MONTEREY HISTORICS Message-ID: <002d01c8d1b4$b13d4440$0702a8c0@Bud> Hi Gang...If any of you are racing in the Monterey Historics at Laguna Seca in August...Please let me know, and I will put the info on My Newsletter,..and..It will be great to meet you at the track! Racer Bud.... From lang at isis.mit.edu Thu Jun 19 08:05:16 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Top hats In-Reply-To: <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Ed Woods wrote: > Jack, > > Has anyone tried the Moss steel top hat bushing? What are the thoughts on > using it with the brass 3rd speed bush? Using steel with brass is a bad idea. If you use the steel 2nd bush, use the steel 3rd bush. The steel 3rd bush is dimensionally identical to the brass. Although I think the yellow parts are bronze, but that's nit-picking. > Ed rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 19 10:52:08 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:52:08 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Top hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <082501c8d22c$d0c478b0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Using steel with brass is a bad idea. Maybe that's why the brass ones don't work so well ? All that steel around them ? Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 19 12:18:47 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:18:47 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <083c01c8d238$eb0453b0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > We don't need no stinking top hats, it was a bad design when they made > them. We need a good thrust bearing, bearing face, and bushing. "Bluto's right ! Psychotic, but right. We gotta take these b...." From Guyots3 at wmconnect.com Thu Jun 19 13:36:53 2008 From: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com (Guyots3 at wmconnect.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:36:53 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fot-request at autox.team.net writes: > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 > From: "Steven Preiss" > Subject: Re: [Fot] Top hats > To: "Jack W. Drews" > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0 at stevenhgi8vu27> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car > ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? > By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be > compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). > Steve P. An interesting point. It came to my attention that when Toyota went into the South African market, they took over the old Standard-Triumph International factory at Durban, and most probably other ex-Triumph factories in different Triumph markets around the world also. I heard that Toyota took care to preserve much of the historic documentation, and engineering papers that they found there, something I doubt would have happened if it had been the other way around. The Japanese were always keen to copy, learn and improve on Western designs, eventually taking over the business. Maybe there is more of our Triumphs in modern Toyotas than we realise? I know it's a Mazda, but you only have to look at the Miata. Regards Lion From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 23:31:48 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:31:48 +1100 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") References: Message-ID: <003001c8d1cd$c5f29750$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Hence the interchangability of the early girling brake calipers used on toyota coronas and Hilux pickup trucks with the 16P and later PB (Metric mounting bolt shank bores) used on the TR250 and 6s? I think the wheel mounting centers are the same on the early corollas and celicas. And while the toyota trannys are much more substantial units i understand that the ratios are nearly the same. Also, the early corona engines were 19XX ccs. And the early Datsun cars and trucks used SUs, albeit with aluminum ohc crossflow heads. Yes, appropriate and improve. It's the way of the world, really. Wouldn't it be swell if Toyota or Nissan would reintroduce the marque? Toyota has yet to go retro, to my knowledge. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com To: fot at autox.team.net Cc: spreiss at verizon.net Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 6:36 AM Subject: "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fot-request at autox.team.net writes: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 From: "Steven Preiss" Subject: Re: [Fot] Top hats To: "Jack W. Drews" Cc: fot at autox.team.net Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0 at stevenhgi8vu27> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). Steve P. An interesting point. It came to my attention that when Toyota went into the South African market, they took over the old Standard-Triumph International factory at Durban, and most probably other ex-Triumph factories in different Triumph markets around the world also. I heard that Toyota took care to preserve much of the historic documentation, and engineering papers that they found there, something I doubt would have happened if it had been the other way around. The Japanese were always keen to copy, learn and improve on Western designs, eventually taking over the business. Maybe there is more of our Triumphs in modern Toyotas than we realise? I know it's a Mazda, but you only have to look at the Miata. Regards Lion From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 19 14:47:05 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:47:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Thu Jun 19 15:05:06 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:05:06 -0500 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 exhaust and tried to replicate that. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From BillDentin at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:13:33 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:13:33 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: In a message dated 06/19/2008 3:47:25 PM Central Daylight Time, DSPGTi at aol.com writes: > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > I think LOTUS too. I think I may have told this story before, but when the MIATAs first came out and became popular, a local club came to 'do touring laps' at a VSCDA ROAD AMERICA event. In a condescending manner, I looked down my nose and asked one of the drivers how he liked driving his 'Jap Sports car.' He was very pleasant and answered, "It's a lot like driving your TRIUMPH, but I don't have to work on it." Bill (Damdinger) ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From fubog1 at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:19:35 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:19:35 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA0694E9C6574-9B8-2E83@MBLK-M13.sysops.aol.com> Yes I remember reading that they tried 40+ exhaust systems, trying to find one that sounded like a "sports car", whatever that may sound like...? Glen -----Original Message----- From: Kramer, Robert To: DSPGTi at aol.com ; Guyots3 at wmconnect.com ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 exhaust and tried to replicate that. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From koblinger at verizon.net Thu Jun 19 15:30:03 2008 From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:30:03 -0700 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> The original Miata was most certainly inspired by the original Lotus Elan. The project leader for the Miata was a guy named Bob Hall, who I knew back in my misspent youth when my friends and I used to race around on a deserted piece of road in the Hollywood Hills called Mulholland Dr. Years later Bob landed a job with Mazda and started lobbying for them to build a modern interpretation of a '60s British sports car. When the project got going and a design team was formed, Bob bought an Elan for the team to use as inspiration. One of the lead designers on the team was Mark Jordan, son of Bob Jordan, head of GM styling. Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Cheers, Kurt BillDentin at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 06/19/2008 3:47:25 PM Central Daylight Time, > DSPGTi at aol.com writes: > > > >> When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other >> than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially >> in >> the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been >> influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, >> >> double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double >> overhead >> >> > > I think LOTUS too. I think I may have told this story before, but when the > MIATAs first came out and became popular, a local club came to 'do touring > laps' at a VSCDA ROAD AMERICA event. In a condescending manner, I looked down my > nose and asked one of the drivers how he liked driving his 'Jap Sports car.' > He was very pleasant and answered, "It's a lot like driving your TRIUMPH, but > I don't have to work on it." > > Bill (Damdinger) > > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as koblinger at verizon.net From tedtsimx at bright.net Thu Jun 19 15:34:48 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:34:48 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485AD0F8.7020601@bright.net> Kramer, Robert wrote: > I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 > exhaust and tried to replicate that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM > To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they > learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. > > Dave Y > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as tedtsimx at bright.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM > Bob, one of my customer's was one of the 3 original Miata design team members. Being a Brit car guy, that is the sound he wanted on the exhaust note. After a bunch of study, they settled on an MGA. Ted -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 19 15:42:46 2008 From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com (Bob) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:42:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485AD2D6.50309@cfl.rr.com> Pretty hard to duplicate the sound of a six cylinder with a 4 cylinder. Kramer, Robert wrote: > I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 > exhaust and tried to replicate that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM > To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they > learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. > > Dave Y > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:53:04 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:53:04 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: They missed the mark on sound. Only the fully prepped F or E Prod cars sound good. The rest just kind of buzzes if you know what I mean. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 19 18:03:21 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain our Club licensing fees Message-ID: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> SCCA, NASA, (name your organization) are down right cheap compared to what F1 drivers now have to pay for their licenses. http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43035 Fernando Alonso has labelled the increased in superlicence fees as "ridiculous" and says the Grand Prix Drivers' Association is discussing its response to the change. Last year drivers had to pay 1,725 (#1,286) plus 456 (#340) per point scored in the previous years championship for the mandatory superlicence, but from this season that figure has risen to 10,000 (#7,452) plus 2,000 (#1,490) per point scored in 2007. FIA president Max Mosley believes the change was necessary so that drivers were making an adequate contribution to funding safety improvements. However GPDA director Alonso has hit out at the extent of the price hike. "I think it is a ridiculous amount," he told reporters in Franace. "We drivers should pay our superlicence at a reasonable price, thats all. "It cannot change by one thousand percent from one year to another." There have been rumours in the Magny-Cours paddock that the drivers are considering strike action - a prospect that Alonso did not rule out. "I think we have not many possibilities, but for sure its one of the things we are talking about in the GPDA," he said. "Maybe we need to do something all together, because as a group we have much more [influence] than one single person." But world champion Kimi Raikkonen believes strike action is unlikely. "Of course its better if its not so expensive and its the same for everybody, but I dont think theres any reason to go on strike and not race," he said. "I dont think thats the right way to go but it would be nice if we could reduce it. "Its never going to happen that all the drivers will strike. "Hopefully there is some nice solution that can be found at some point." Alonso said he is not only pushing for a reduction from 2009, but for the sums already paid this year to be refunded. "We need to find an agreement, for this year as well," he told ITV Sport's Ted Kravitz. "What we paid already for 2008, maybe we need to have a refund or something, because it was something ridiculous. "All the drivers agree about this, so hopefully we can put some efforts into that." Championship leader Robert Kubica added that he was uncomfortable with the fact that drivers who scored fewer points had to pay a lower fee, as drivers' wages did not always match their scoring rate. "Its quite a lot of money, especially if you are scoring points like Lewis (Hamilton) did last year and its your first year in Formula 1," he said. "But another point is that experienced drivers who dont have a quick car are not scoring points, so they dont care because they dont have to pay. "So I think it will be difficult to get all drivers to have the same idea but we are trying to convince the FIA to reduce the cost." Kubica added that he was fully supportive of the FIA's safety initiatives and happy to help fund them, but just wanted to see an equal superlicence price for everyone on the grid. "The FIA is saying that it goes to safety and I agree, safety is very important, so in the end, if the standard of safety can improve, we should pay for it," he said. "My case last year and Heikki Kovalainens (accident) this year in Barcelona show that the FIA is making a great effort and doing a very good job in safety. "But then I dont see the point why some drivers have to pay more and some others not. "In the end, we are all on the same track driving F1 cars." From mark at bradakis.com Thu Jun 19 19:46:22 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:46:22 -0600 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 19 20:39:04 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:39:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> Message-ID: <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Granted. But do the math. $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should have some basis in reality. Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and three test drivers (if not more). Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not cost so much for the teams. Other drivers license costs. Kubica: $136,400 Rosberg: $77,500 Truilli: $40,300 Sutil: $18,600 Nakajima: $15,500 At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than we do! > >Fred Hodgson From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:30:04 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:30:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <04DAA4CE-11E6-4414-BDFF-C6C101412275@bnj.com> And/or a Maserati mistral. I've had WAY too many people ask me if it's a 240Z On Jun 19, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: >> Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. > > Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the > house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. > > mjb. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:41:30 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:41:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Message-ID: <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 19 22:56:30 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:56:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> This extended conversation has failed to consider that the whole F1 environment is several orders of magnitude above what we are all used to dealing with. What seems to be a lot of money to us, is chump change to the teams and individuals in that end of the sport. The top teams are all spending sums that exceed many country's GNP and think nothing of it. For a fine to be meaningful in that environment, it has to be that high. What I find absurd is the constant redefinition of the rules that are supposed to cut costs but end up making the sport more expensive because every couple of years the teams have to start over with totally new designs for critical components. It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:42 PM To: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From tr4racing at googlemail.com Thu Jun 19 23:26:00 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:26:00 +0200 Subject: [Fot] The FIA In-Reply-To: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 20 05:33:22 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:33:22 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: Compare your GT6, 240 Zed, etc... with either an E-Type coupe or an early Ferrari GTO, and then you will have gotten to the starting place. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Bradakis To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 20 05:58:13 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:58:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <000001c8d2cc$ed9ab6c0$c8d02440$@net> Same goes for the rear shot of a 308/328 Ferrari and the C-4 Corvette. Russ Moore -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Terry Stetler Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:33 AM To: fot at autox.team.net; Mark J Bradakis Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Compare your GT6, 240 Zed, etc... with either an E-Type coupe or an early Ferrari GTO, and then you will have gotten to the starting place. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Bradakis To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rem9 at frontiernet.net From kaskas at cox.net Fri Jun 20 07:41:49 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 6:41:49 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> The most expensive thing in ANY kind of racing is CHANGE. ---- Joe Curry wrote: ============= This extended conversation has failed to consider that the whole F1 environment is several orders of magnitude above what we are all used to dealing with. What seems to be a lot of money to us, is chump change to the teams and individuals in that end of the sport. The top teams are all spending sums that exceed many country's GNP and think nothing of it. For a fine to be meaningful in that environment, it has to be that high. What I find absurd is the constant redefinition of the rules that are supposed to cut costs but end up making the sport more expensive because every couple of years the teams have to start over with totally new designs for critical components. It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:42 PM To: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net -- Never be beaten by equipment From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 20 10:58:11 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:58:11 -0400 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> Message-ID: "It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C." It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in excess of $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams are close to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do you think a fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more than that on brake components for one race weekend. I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale however. Terry Stetler From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 20 11:04:23 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:04:23 EDT Subject: [Fot] And we complain... Message-ID: Its just another self pro-liferating professional sport....as long as the public keeps paying and the sheiks keep spending,...who cares ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From billbab at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 11:30:25 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:30:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> Message-ID: <6F808E87-D318-4FB0-9DAD-F61FBFCC1CEF@gmail.com> I actually wasn't reflecting on whether or not the fine was proportional, but on the effect to the fans. When you fine a team 100 million you make it very clear that nothing going on in F1 has any relevance to normal human endeavor. I enjoy F1 tremendously, I Tivo all the races. But I think the governance is strange and arbitrary. I've watched the politics for years, I think the FIA harms the sport continuously. On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Terry Stetler wrote: > "It is truly a rich man's sport. > > Joe C." > > It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in > excess of > $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams > are close > to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do > you think a > fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more > than that on > brake components for one race weekend. > I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale > however. > > Terry Stetler > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Billbab at gmail.com www.kenalu.com www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog From wgrosenbach at juno.com Fri Jun 20 12:15:21 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:15:21 -0600 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... Message-ID: <20080620.121524.3008.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>> "It is truly a rich man's sport. Recall, if you will, when most of our toy cars were new, Formula-1 cars were often transported on open trailers, paddocked in the dirt, using war surplus tents for shade, drivers wore cotton drivers' suits, and $10 steering wheels. Money & Power corrupt. Times change. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Beauty Advice Just Got a Makeover Read reviews about the beauty products you have always wanted to try http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7UzvJ42ecbOQ9bGrLel7QQigYt0IivJKSBUaweoPtkVsIZM/ From timmurph at fastbytes.com Fri Jun 20 12:19:22 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:19:22 -0500 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> <6F808E87-D318-4FB0-9DAD-F61FBFCC1CEF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002901c8d302$2af42da0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Couldn't agree more with your assesment of the FIA's "contribution" to the sport. I enjoy the F1 races also, finally got satellite TV so I could record them myself. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Terry Stetler" Cc: ; "FOT Triumph" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... >I actually wasn't reflecting on whether or not the fine was > proportional, but on the effect to the fans. When you fine a team 100 > million you make it very clear that nothing going on in F1 has any > relevance to normal human endeavor. > > I enjoy F1 tremendously, I Tivo all the races. But I think the > governance is strange and arbitrary. I've watched the politics for > years, I think the FIA harms the sport continuously. > > On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Terry Stetler wrote: > >> "It is truly a rich man's sport. >> >> Joe C." >> >> It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in >> excess of >> $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams >> are close >> to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do >> you think a >> fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more >> than that on >> brake components for one race weekend. >> I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale >> however. >> >> Terry Stetler >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Billbab at gmail.com > www.kenalu.com > www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 20 12:20:13 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:20:13 -0600 Subject: [Fot] The FIA References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New Haven Ct. area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. Does any one Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " GROUP 44 APPROVED " Any one know what the history on that may mean Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: [Fot] The FIA The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 20 12:29:36 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:29:36 -0600 Subject: [Fot] The FIA References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Swope To: fot at autox.team.net ; MadMarx Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] The FIA I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New Haven Ct. area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. Does any one Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " GROUP 44 APPROVED " Any one know what the history on that may mean Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com> (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx> To: fot at autox.team.net> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: [Fot] The FIA The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net ing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com>; fot at autox.team.net> Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html> Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot stinfo/fot> You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com> _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From Lunkercars at earthlink.net Fri Jun 20 16:59:27 2008 From: Lunkercars at earthlink.net (Greg "Lunker" Hilyer) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:59:27 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Info anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: This is the white w/green TR4 #06 that I mentioned a few weeks ago when I introduced Bill for nomination. Bill- what # was the car when it was orange/yellow? Also, I've attached a comment from Jerry Van Vlack [see below] that may pertain to your car. Greg "Lunker" Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM Greg, for what it's worth I last saw an ex Group 44 TR-4 at Watkins Glen in 1971 or 1972. It may well have been owned by a guy from Conn, although I thought he was from Philadelphia. I am racking my brain to remember his name and if you have a log book from those years and can get me a name I'm sure I will remember his name. I know that car was an ex Group 44 car as I spent some time with the owner and looked the car all over. At the time I was a crew for a low budget TR4 racer out of Pittsburgh and I was amazed at what Group 44 had done to that car. It was fast and well driven. We had a spectacular engine explosion and spent the balance of the weekend at the local Wineries. The weekend was combined with a Trans-Am or Can Am event. Good times. Jerry Van Vlack I remember his name..........it was David Manners, is that a previous owner of your car? If yes then it is a previous Group 44 car. At least it's the one I saw. JVV On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bill Swope wrote: > I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New > Haven Ct. > area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. > Does any one > Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " > GROUP 44 > APPROVED " > Any one know what the history on that may mean > Wm. (Bill) Swope > dba C ME GO Racing > 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW > Los Ranchos, N M 87107 > bswope959 at msn.com > (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MadMarx > To: fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM > Subject: [Fot] The FIA > Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 From jaboruch at netzero.net Fri Jun 20 17:39:32 2008 From: jaboruch at netzero.net (Joe Boruch) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:39:32 GMT Subject: [Fot] Info anyone? Message-ID: <20080620.193932.1947.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com> If this is the car that I am thinking of, it was one of Bob Kilpatrick's cars, but it was usually raced by one of his crew. They raced it with the SCCA with the Volvo Historic Series, which is now known as the HRG (Historic Racing Group of the SCCA in the Northeast Division). As I reacall, they never had much success in getting the car to complete a race. Last I saw it, it was at NHIS and had lots of metal shavings in the oil. I offered to build them an engine that would stay together, but they did not like my price. I heard that they sold it to someone out west (Colorado?). Apparently the car had raced at some point in the 70's in the NE. I saw it for sale at the Lime Rock Vintage festival, which I believe is where Bob bought it from. Bob now lives in Florida and last I heard he is still racing his MGB down there. Joe(B) -- "Greg \"Lunker\" Hilyer" wrote: This is the white w/green TR4 #06 that I mentioned a few weeks ago when I introduced Bill for nomination. Bill- what # was the car when it was orange/yellow? Also, I've attached a comment from Jerry Van Vlack [see below] that may pertain to your car. Greg "Lunker" Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM Greg, for what it's worth I last saw an ex Group 44 TR-4 at Watkins Glen in 1971 or 1972. It may well have been owned by a guy from Conn, although I thought he was from Philadelphia. I am racking my brain to remember his name and if you have a log book from those years and can get me a name I'm sure I will remember his name. I know that car was an ex Group 44 car as I spent some time with the owner and looked the car all over. At the time I was a crew for a low budget TR4 racer out of Pittsburgh and I was amazed at what Group 44 had done to that car. It was fast and well driven. We had a spectacular engine explosion and spent the balance of the weekend at the local Wineries. The weekend was combined with a Trans-Am or Can Am event. Good times. Jerry Van Vlack I remember his name..........it was David Manners, is that a previous owner of your car? If yes then it is a previous Group 44 car. At least it's the one I saw. JVV On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bill Swope wrote: > I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New > Haven Ct. > area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. > Does any one > Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " > GROUP 44 > APPROVED " > Any one know what the history on that may mean > Wm. (Bill) Swope > dba C ME GO Racing > 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW > Los Ranchos, N M 87107 > bswope959 at msn.com > (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MadMarx > To: fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM > Subject: [Fot] The FIA > Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaboruch at netzero.net ____________________________________________________________ Scan, remove and block Spyware. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2231/fc/Ioyw6ijlZvPV30KrXYejPE5my9DGbg 2x6fkITnFNUEfIkDDCV4XYHw/ From Gt6steve at aol.com Fri Jun 20 20:16:57 2008 From: Gt6steve at aol.com (Gt6steve at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:16:57 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mitchell camber gauge Message-ID: Amici, Can you point me to instructions for using the Wayne Mitchell Camber gauge I just acquired? I'm looking at it, I know what it does and how to use it but I'm totally brain dead on it?? WTF? I am so involved in devolving the plant these days that my racing brain is put away somewhere... **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From Group44TR7 at aol.com Sat Jun 21 06:49:16 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:49:16 EDT Subject: [Fot] Canadian Triumph Championships Message-ID: Amici Does anyone have a compilation of championships that have been won by Triumphs in Canada? This poster implies that Triumph TR7 won a national championship in Canada. Triumph's TR8 won at least one other national championship there (Cam Champion). _http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ33024 4939299QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem_ (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330244939299Q QihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Those of you who saw Pete Wilson's TR8 at the 50th anniversary were actua lly looking at the Canadian GT1 Championship car of Cam Champion. Cary **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From macdonaldp at rogers.com Sat Jun 21 08:30:09 2008 From: macdonaldp at rogers.com (Paul MacDonald) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:30:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Canadian Championship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have a compilation, but that is me bidding on the poster... Paul MacDonald Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:49:16 EDT From: Group44TR7 at aol.com Subject: [Fot] Canadian Triumph Championships To: fot at autox.team.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Amici Does anyone have a compilation of championships that have been won by Triumphs in Canada? This poster implies that Triumph TR7 won a national championship in Canada. Triumph's TR8 won at least one other national championship there (Cam Champion). _http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330 24 4939299QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem_ (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330 244939299Q QihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Those of you who saw Pete Wilson's TR8 at the 50th anniversary were actua lly looking at the Canadian GT1 Championship car of Cam Champion. Cary *********************************** From trmarty at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 14:29:30 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:29:30 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spity Diff rear bushings Message-ID: Pulled the differential out of the Spitfire today to replace the mounting bushings. Crap, what a job. The only way I was able to get one out was to cut through the side of the sleeve. I put the replacement back in and did my best work throughly butchering the crap out of it. before I move on to the second one , whats the preferred method of replacing these buggers? I put the bushing in the freezer and heated the diff with a torch trying to gain a little room but it still pretty much laughed at me an my BFH. By the looks of the fresh paint on this differential possibly it was rebuilt in the somewhat recent past but the old, probably 40 year old bushing were left in. Now I understand why. Somebody give me some advice before the neighbors call the police about all the swearing coming from the garage. Thanks, Marty _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From jmwagner at greenheart.com Sat Jun 21 20:59:44 2008 From: jmwagner at greenheart.com (Justin Wagner) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:59:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] [Fwd: Justin: "Remembernig the Fallen"] Message-ID: <485DC020.8000006@greenheart.com> Not Triumph related.... Powerful video.... --Justin Remembering the Fallen http://www.militarytimes.com/hancock From trmarty at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 06:40:20 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:40:20 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spitty Diff Bushings now in In-Reply-To: <000d01c8d3e1$c38a1d10$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <000d01c8d3e1$c38a1d10$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: Thanks for all the replies. Second one went MUCH better. In case you decide to replace these and haven't done this before here is what ended up working. On the removal the trick is to cut through the side wall of the sleeve to allow it to collapse and then can be pushed out. I used a dremel to cut the sleeve but others suggested using a hack saw blade. Oh, you have to remove the rubber first to get to the sleeve. It was suggested to burn it out but mine was so deteriorated I was able to dig it out with a screwdriver. For the install I machined up a plug just slightly smaller than the OD of the new sleeve and relieved the face of the plug slightly to clear the inner sleeve of the new bushing. I then used a vice to press the new bushing in using this plug as a guide. The plug probably did not need to be made smaller than the OD of the sleeve but the original intent was to use it to push the old bushing out, that was before I fount out I needed to cut he wall of the old sleeve. Once cut I didn't need the plug to push it out. Now that new ones are in I wonder if in place of the stock style rubber lined bushings I could have machined up a set of delrin bushings with a steel sleeve in the center and used them instead. Marty _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From S.Janzen at comcast.net Sun Jun 22 11:31:13 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:31:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen FOT Shirts and Baseball Caps- time to order! Message-ID: <000e01c8d48d$c51516b0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> You might remember I took a poll on this subject a few weeks back. As a result, we're going to offer the three most popular choices - a long sleeve denim shirt with a Triumph shield/laurel/Kastner Cup logo embroidered on the left front Baseball cap (blue or khaki) with the same logo Printed tee shirt with a terrific all Triumph race graphic designed by Greg Petrolati on the back, and the FOT logo you are all familiar with and the words Kastner Cup 2008 below it, on the left front. Go to the link below and view "photo album" to see the embroidered logos, the shirt and cap and the tee shirt design. At this point, I need you to tell me how many of each of these you want and the size. Just send me an email. We need all orders by July 1. Ted Shumacher is graciously offering to handle credit card processing and will bring all the items to the Glen for pre-paid pick-up. If you do not plan to be at the Glen, shipping is extra. Once we have orders, Ted and I will figure out how to collect credit card info, checks, etc and get back to you once we have the orders. Long Sleeve button down denim shirts in blue or khaki, button down collar, breast pocket, embroidery above pocket. S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $30 +1 for every X above XL. An XL is a 17 -17 1/2 neck size, so these are good sized shirts Baseball caps - hgh quality Adams cap, one size fits all, khaki color, $16 Tee shirts, light gray background, S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $19, plus $1 for every X above XL http://www.freewebs.com/sjanzen/index.htm From henry at henryfrye.com Mon Jun 23 09:12:04 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:12:04 -0400 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. Our paddock was anchored at it's usual location inside turn one, and under our tents we had the cars of Keith Files, Tony Drews, Mark Wheatley and me. Friday's three sessions went off with one hitch, on the final session Keith's car dropped out with a seized engine. Looks like another victim of the oil pump drive shaft tang shearing. The plan was hatched to get the car back in form for the Glen in September. Saturday morning we had a qualifying session to determine grid position for the afternoon qualifying race. Tony qualified 10th, Mark 11th, and I was 13th. We were a few tenths apart. On the warm up lap the rain started. Kind of light at first, but by the time the green flag fell it was quite wet. I delighted to watch Mark work his racecraft and pick and wiggle his way to round turn one in second place! Tony was in the inside lane and was held up with nowhere to go. As we slid around with all the Minis and Mustangs and a Corvette and even a 1962 Galaxie 500 I got increasing uneasy, and on our second tear up the back straight a microburst of heavy rain hit. I had enough and came in, Mark finished 5th, while Tony worked his way up to 8th. On Sunday morning's race we saw Tony Drews run a 144.9, Mark Wheatley turn a 1:44.8, and I ran a 1:44.6. OK, in the column that really counts, Tony came in 6th overall, Mark finished 8th, and I came in 14th. I had a hoot running through traffic while our boys out front battled for bragging rights. Mike and Sandy Jackson pulled the Trailer of Templeton Formula Vees, and Mike piloted the Shadowfax while hired gun Dick Ryan ran the freshly restored Ringwraith. The Ringwraith looks great, congrats on a job well done, Mike! Bud Babcock was there in his gorgeous TR3, and Ivan Ivanyshyn piloted the ex-Dave Herd Spitfire. Matt Molson ran his TR6 as well. Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the highlight of my season. From tedtsimx at bright.net Mon Jun 23 09:46:28 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:46:28 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to reach Ed Barnard Message-ID: <485FC554.9020103@bright.net> Ed, please call me back.. Phone Ihave for you does not work. Sorry to bomb list with this. Thanks, Ted -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From tony at tonydrews.com Mon Jun 23 20:26:32 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:26:32 -0500 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport In-Reply-To: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.loca l> References: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> Message-ID: <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> I've got to echo Henry's comments on this track and the hospitality. I drove the track back in 2002 and the memory faded. I remembered it being fun, but when I went out for the first session, on about lap 2 I was thinking "NOW I remember what I love about this track!". It's one of those tracks that uses the natural terrain to its advantage. There are a number of high speed sweepers where you get to test your bravery, some of them with blind entrances. I found myself hooting to myself inside my helmet on particularly good runs through turn 2. The format is great, 3 untimed practices on Friday to figure out the track (or re-learn it), a qualifying session Saturday, a race on Saturday and two races on Sunday. Prior race FINISHING ORDER (not lap time) sets position for next race, making that awesome pass in an earlier race worth something (good job, Mark!). We had about 60 cars in our group, so getting through traffic quickly was a significant part of the racecraft. Frickin awesome. No matter what your speed, you've got someone to race with. They did have 110 leaded at the track as well. While it's starting to get uncomfortably warm in the midwest, the weather there was low 70's. They did have a few showers roll through, but they quickly dissipated. I remember it doing that in 2002, and suspect that is the norm. Border crossings were non-events, other than there being a little bit of a wait to get to the head of the line at the border stations. For 2009, you will need a passport to get back into the US, though. $65 at the local post office and 3 to 4 weeks later I had mine. They even took the picture. They have plenty of workers, all enthusiastic, clapping and waving at the end of the sessions. It was one of those weekends that I didn't want to see end. If I can afford the time off and the tow next year, I'll certainly be back. It would be fun to see more of the FOT there, and I'm sure you wouldn't regret choosing to go. - Tony Drews At 10:12 AM 6/23/2008, Henry Frye wrote: >The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. > > >Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That >combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible >enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are >extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the >highlight of my season. >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as tony at tonydrews.com From lfritz82 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 21:10:34 2008 From: lfritz82 at hotmail.com (Lorne Fritz) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:10:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I have a customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to suggest upping the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put on headers, but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit.(any good ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've heard of some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit from someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. housings. Has anybody used this set up and how does it work? Thanks in advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca shback From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:14:14 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:14:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport In-Reply-To: <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> References: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <48D9ED79-A613-407F-BF25-9864D6CA1919@bnj.com> I have no idea how the memory of Mosport could fade. To drive fast there you have to grow a third testicle, though that's probably different for the ladies. After every session I sat in my car for a long time, just thinking. I''m not even certain what I was thinking about--but I know I didn't just jump out of the car and say "boy, that was fun" as I usually do. On Jun 23, 2008, at 7:26 PM, Tony Drews wrote: > I've got to echo Henry's comments on this track and the > hospitality. I drove the track back in 2002 and the memory faded. I > remembered it being fun, but when I went out for the first session, > on about lap 2 I was thinking "NOW I remember what I love about this > track!". It's one of those tracks that uses the natural terrain to > its advantage. There are a number of high speed sweepers where you > get to test your bravery, some of them with blind entrances. I found > myself hooting to myself inside my helmet on particularly good runs > through turn 2. The format is great, 3 untimed practices on Friday > to figure out the track (or re-learn it), a qualifying session > Saturday, a race on Saturday and two races on Sunday. Prior race > FINISHING ORDER (not lap time) sets position for next race, making > that awesome pass in an earlier race worth something (good job, > Mark!). We had about 60 cars in our group, so getting through > traffic quickly was a significant part of the racecraft. Frickin > awesome. No matter what your speed, you've got someone to race with. > > They did have 110 leaded at the track as well. > > While it's starting to get uncomfortably warm in the midwest, the > weather there was low 70's. They did have a few showers roll > through, but they quickly dissipated. I remember it doing that in > 2002, and suspect that is the norm. From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:27:25 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only route to more horsepower without increasing compression or displacement is flow. Changing the carb won't necessarily do that unless something else is done that turns the cab into a bottleneck. the easiest route that will probably deliver enough new grunt to be felt in the seat of the pants (ten percent) is a little cleanup to the head. Match the ports to the intake manifold, clean up the transitions. Stage two is a serious head porting job, bigger intake valves, and consider a carb change. Stage three it's cam and exhaust header. Once you've done all that if you still need more you're into compression and extreme mods and you probably don't want to go there. You can get some good horsepower by blueprinting the motor, but you'd probably increase compression slightly when you do that, and you'd probably do a cam as well. It's also pretty expensive. I tracked my hours on the motor I built for the All Aluminum tour, which was not a highly modified lump--it ran two years of racing without a murmur and probably would have run a third, but I had Tony Garmy freshen it up anyway. Just good parts, good machining and very clean and careful assembly. It was a little over 200 hours--$10,000 at fifty bucks an hour. Of course you could just fit a supercharger. There's some good kits now. I don't know if there's a TR6 one yet, but that would work well. On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Lorne Fritz wrote: > Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I > have a > customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to > suggest upping > the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put > on headers, > but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit. > (any good > ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've > heard of > some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit > from > someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. > housings. Has > anybody used this set up and how does it work? > Thanks in > advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:37:00 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:37:00 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F3A0D79-07D1-4EC1-8D69-09FA28C29DC5@bnj.com> Oh, and water injection works great with supercharged cars so you don't really have to go with higher octane. I don't know why that isn't used more. I suspect there will be interest in it again soon-- especially water/ethanol injection. On Jun 23, 2008, at 9:27 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > The only route to more horsepower without increasing compression or > displacement is flow. Changing the carb won't necessarily do that > unless something else is done that turns the cab into a bottleneck. From GSFuqua1 at aol.com Mon Jun 23 23:10:11 2008 From: GSFuqua1 at aol.com (GSFuqua1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:10:11 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: Moss has a very nice Supercharger kit for the TR 6. Virtually all bolt on. THAT will give you a kick in the pants but you don't want to put that on a weak motor. Doesn't have to be a fresh rebuild but should be good and solid. The Throttle Body Kit is also excellent but as was pointed out if you put more in you need to handle it properly and then get it out. A good head job...Hey wait...back to the engine will clean things out nicely. Then you can go with the headers. No reason not to go with a decent street cam for a little punch as well. Once you have the horses you need to get them to the ground so make sure your clutch system and the rest of the drive train (U-joints, etc.) are up to the task. Also make sure you differential mounts are solid. Nothing quite as exciting as thinking you are going to lay down a little black only to have it go clunk. Just some thoughts for you to consider. I would not rule out Richard Goods Triple Strombergs with his cool air set up and the nice aluminum shroud. Works get on my car. Happy hunting and the check book lubed up REAL nice cause it ain't cheap. Cheers, Gary Fuqua Classic Sports Car Branson, MO Ps,,,If you decide to go the Supercharger route I have one for the late model TR 6 that I might be able to make you a deal on. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From mark at bradakis.com Mon Jun 23 23:42:22 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:42:22 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4860893E.4050401@bradakis.com> What year TR6 is this? If it has the wimpy 7.whatever compression ratio, going to 9 or 9.5 will be a big help without requiring frequent trips to specialty places for race gas. mjb. From BillDentin at aol.com Tue Jun 24 09:00:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:00:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: In a message dated 06/23/2008 11:14:43 PM Central Daylight Time, billbab at gmail.com writes: > I have no idea how the memory of Mosport could fade. To drive fast > there you have to grow a third testicle, though that's probably > different for the ladies. After every session I sat in my car for a > long time, just thinking. I''m not even certain what I was thinking > about--but I know I didn't just jump out of the car and say "boy, that > was fun" as I usually do. > Yeah...for ladies, don't they call them gonads? MOSPORT Turn TWO is arguably the toughest turn in Road Racing. Blind, double apex, down hill, off camber, etc. It sure gets my vote. I sure never got it right. Of course it is a left hander, I tend to make Tony Drews look slender, and I was in a right hand drive car. I thought I was going to roll over every lap. Kas made several suggestions as to what I was doing wrong, but either I didn't understand, or I was too worried about rolling over. But I sure want to go back some time and try to get it right. Having said that, our TRs sure like that up hill back straight coming out of the Stirling Moss corner. It suits that old tractor engine just fine. MOSPORT is a great track. Sadly, last week end's MOSPORT event saw a rare vintage racing fatality late Sunday morning, when Dino Crescentini's Wolf CanAm car had a suspected equipment failure on that up hill back straight. His car went airborne, came down on its top, and rolled more times than they could count. All racing, even vintage racing, is dangerous. It is important to think about that when worrying about picking up another 10th in a sport where LAST pays the same as FIRST. Bill Dentinger ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From kaskas at cox.net Tue Jun 24 09:14:22 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:14:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades References: Message-ID: I think you should have long talk about a short subject with your customer. Recognizing that compression is by far the easiest way to power increases as it starts with rev one and goes right on until you run out of rev bravery. My point is that the COST of doing something such as supercharging or adding fuel injection will cost probably a couple thousand dollars at a minimum. Figure hi octane gas will cost about 20 cents per gallon over regular. Unless you are driving this TR-6 on a long commute EVERYDAY it will take years of gas cost savings to ever make up the initial cost of the injection or supercharging. And, by the way you are not going to get away with regular fuel with a supercharger either. I designed and manufactured turbo kits for years in my private company ( Arkay Inc.) and even with PREMIUM gas we had to add water injection to every kit . You can mill the head enough to bring it to 9.5 compression, add a small street short overlap camshaft, headers and the S.U. carbs or a triple manifold from "GoodParts" and headers and you'll have really nice performing car on the road and reliable. After the head mill and valve grind and headers you can add the other parts as time passes and you have more funds. The compression will be felt when you leave the garage. Just as an added feature the increase in compression will IMPROVE the mileage. -------------- From: "Lorne Fritz" Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:10 PM To: Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades > Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I have a > customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to suggest > upping > the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put on > headers, > but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit.(any good > ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've heard > of > some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit from > someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. housings. > Has > anybody used this set up and how does it work? Thanks in > advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 09:38:18 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:38:18 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. On Jun 24, 2008, at 8:14 AM, Kas Kastner wrote: > I think you should have long talk about a short subject with your > customer. > Recognizing that compression is by far the easiest way to power > increases as > it starts with rev one and goes right on until you run out of rev > bravery. > > My point is that the COST of doing something such as supercharging > or adding > fuel injection will cost probably a couple thousand dollars at a > minimum. > Figure hi octane gas will cost about 20 cents per gallon over regular. > Unless you are driving this TR-6 on a long commute EVERYDAY it will > take > years of gas cost savings to ever make up the initial cost of the > injection > or supercharging. And, by the way you are not going to get away with > regular > fuel with a supercharger either. I designed and manufactured turbo > kits for > years in my private company ( Arkay Inc.) and even with PREMIUM gas > we had > to add water injection to every kit . > > You can mill the head enough to bring it to 9.5 compression, add a > small > street short overlap camshaft, headers and the S.U. carbs or a triple > manifold from "GoodParts" and headers and you'll have really nice > performing > car on the road and reliable. After the head mill and valve grind and > headers you can add the other parts as time passes and you have more > funds. > The compression will be felt when you leave the garage. Just as an > added > feature the increase in compression will IMPROVE the mileage. From westerneagleracing at att.net Tue Jun 24 11:32:05 2008 From: westerneagleracing at att.net (westerneagleracing at att.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:32:05 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans Message-ID: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on Spitfires at Le Mans. Ron Jacobs Western Eagle Racing From hottr6 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 11:53:42 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:53:42 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: I suggest you spend a bit more time with your customer. There are two important questions that need to be answered: 1) What does he/she intend to do with all that horsepower, and; 2) How much money does he/she want to spend (all the while ensuring a balance between safety, handling, braking, reliability, economy, time between rebuilds and hp)? It is amazing that once these questions have been *honestly* answered, the vast majority of TR6 drivers will prefer the Moss Motors bolt-on supercharger. Most TR6 drivers (actually, most drivers) are on some sort of "my thing is bigger than your thing" kick, and obsessed with having something that is dimensionally larger than their neighbor. You got 15" wheels? I got 17" wheels. 11" brakes? I got 13" brakes. 350 hp? I got 355 hp. Yeah, like any of that stuff makes a real difference. What these folk do not realize is that you can scare yourself silly, and have a ball doing it, with a vehicle that is completely stock. The number of times I have humiliated Corvette, or kit- Cobras and yes, Miatas with my old stock TR6 on road or autoX courses belies the fact that most drivers have no idea how to control what they already have. Of course, if they are good drivers, I'm the first with the white flag. I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly. If you want to find out what can be done to a TR6 motor that is still manageable and enjoyable on the road, have a look at: http://triumph.hottr6.com/TR6motor.html After reading that, I am sure your customer will very quickly decide upon a supercharger. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From fubog1 at aol.com Tue Jun 24 12:07:18 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:07:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> I completely agree. Glen "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". -----Original Message----- From: Shane Ingate To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 23 21:02:43 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:02:43 +1100 Subject: [Fot] cooling Message-ID: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. From charly at mitchelplumbing.com Tue Jun 24 12:37:46 2008 From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly Mitchel) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:37:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs References: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <01ae01c8d629$65ec5750$0302a8c0@Charly> I agree totally also and have been told the early TR4 Z-S carbs flow the best of all including SU's. You know the ones with the funny choke. Charly Mitchel TR6 #44 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs >I completely agree. > Glen > > "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have > got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not > understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand > multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" > SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can > think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shane Ingate > To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com > Cc: Friends of Triumph > Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Tue Jun 24 12:40:04 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:40:04 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C368E3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> No, but in my old Datsun B210, I used to have to crank the heater all the way up in order to drive on a warm summer day without overheating. That worked just fine as long as you didn't mind arriving at your destination looking like you'd just run a 10K race. You're just talking about moving the position of the same system. Scott -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+scott.barr=mccarty-law.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+scott.barr=mccarty-law.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Preiss Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:03 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] cooling Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as scott.barr at mccarty-law.com From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 23 21:41:13 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:41:13 +1100 Subject: [Fot] cooling References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002c01c8d628$8983c7d0$0200a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: <003a01c8d5ac$26d7d7b0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Like using TR6 flat heater core as a supplementary radiator connected to the heater lines coming right off the head and water pump housing and mounted in the traditional oil cooler position down below the rad and in its own air stream. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig" To: "Steven Preiss" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling > Need more input > You lost me > Craig > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:02 PM > Subject: [Fot] cooling > > > > Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler > > and > > connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 > > radiator? > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as wensley_tr at comcast.net From kaskas at cox.net Tue Jun 24 12:54:44 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:54:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs References: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> <01ae01c8d629$65ec5750$0302a8c0@Charly> Message-ID: <311F55F02E804CE498CA6CBE418C8A87@RW> The problem I found was the occasional leak in a diaphragm that could throw you for a couple days until you finally find that little pin hole and of course the difficulty in finding optional needles. That is the reason I figured out away to use the S.U. needles and how to make a needle modifying tool. The floats also can be a problem and when you pull the float bowl you can have gasoline all over the engine side (read: headers) and that is okay when cold. You also need to align the float bowl vent so it does not flow over when hard cornering. Really a short list for a very effective carburetor until you get to the emission type carbs that had no adjustment for mixture and the needles were very difficult to deal with for racing. All easy things to fix though. Determination is the key. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Charly Mitchel" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:37 AM To: ; ; Cc: Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs > I agree totally also and have been told the early TR4 Z-S carbs flow the > best of all including SU's. You know the ones with the funny choke. > Charly Mitchel > TR6 #44 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs > > >>I completely agree. >> Glen >> >> "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have >> got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not >> understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand >> multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" >> SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can >> think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Shane Ingate >> To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com >> Cc: Friends of Triumph >> Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 13:23:20 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:23:20 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <3766CA05-D82A-49CD-9CE6-F999800C11E3@bnj.com> Funny you should mention that. The Ambro 001 that I bought from Doug Karon has an auxiliary radiator that plumbs to the back of the block. At least I think that's what it's doing--it's a plumber's nightmare. Haven't had time to figure it all out since I'm trying hard to finish Peyote for the Northwest Historics. On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:02 PM, Steven Preiss wrote: > Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil > cooler and > connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 > radiator? > Steve P. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From trhouse at greenapple.com Tue Jun 24 13:23:40 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (trhouse at greenapple.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Howdy; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51075.24.123.61.161.1214335420.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> I have been out of touch with the world for a couple of months still planning to go to the glenn tom > Hi Tom, > > Just wanted to give you a quick shout to see how you and your projects are > doing. I'm planning a trip to Watkins Glen for the vintage festival in > Sept., as it is the 60th Anniversity of road racing at the Glen. My > association with the Glen goes back a long way because of my going first > in 1949, and taking me in 1950. Its always like going home again. Take > care and let me know things are going for you and Doretti. > > Don Robinson > donaldr68 at bellsouth.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Tue Jun 24 13:35:26 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (trhouse at greenapple.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51115.24.123.61.161.1214336126.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> I went out this morning to head to the shop and found that someone stole a 1968 AH Sprite from in front of my house. Car is Red with Black interior good solid driver. Had some minor rear end damage. The licence plate light was broken off when it was backed into which resulted in a couple of inch depression of the area below the boot lid. Car had Ohio Historical plates on it. Solid wheels with Small AH hub caps. The neighbor saw it drive away about 2:00 AM this morning, (He thought it was me) Tom Householder Lancaster, Ohio 614-332-6541 > Joe Curry wrote: > > ...if they really were interested in > "saving the planet" They would scrap that > old car instead of selling it. > > My understanding is that it is far better > economics and less taxing on natural resources > to keep the old klunker going. Most of the > pollution caused by a car during its lifetime > (cradle-to-grave) is during its manufacture > and disposal, not when it is used on the road. > > I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource > cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than > building a Tahoe. What tipped the scales was the > manufacturing of the battery. The nickel is mined > in the US, processed in Poland, refined in Japan, > assembled into the battery in Canada, and then installed > into the car in Japan. The nickel travels around the > world 3 times. Don't even ask about the cost of > disposing of this toxic mess. Prius owners are in > for a real shock come time to replace the batteries. > > Shane Ingate, musing on a slow Friday, in NM > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. > http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s > kydrive_062008 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as trhouse at greenapple.com From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Tue Jun 24 14:04:27 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:04:27 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 performance upgrades Message-ID: <200806242004.m5OK4T28410632@ns3.geneseo.net> Most of these cars are driven around in civilized areas and don't see top speed. It could be argued that the performance factor that gives a driver the most fun is better acceleration. If you buy that, then a lighter flywheel gives more bang for the buck than any other mod. If you look at chassis dyno numbers before and after the normal mods for the first 20% power increase, and if you look at the real increase at speeds at which these cars are normally driven - namely, below 3500 rpm, you realize that the increase in car performance from our most popular mods increase the hp and torque a rather small amount at these rpms. A lighter flywheel, though, will be felt immediately. Likewise, changing from a 3.7 diff to a 4.1 will be felt immediately. uncle jack From tr4racing at googlemail.com Tue Jun 24 14:13:44 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:13:44 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: I still have a heater implanted and use it as an emergency cooler or at cold days for keeping me cozy and warm. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Steven Preiss Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. Juni 2008 05:03 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com From billsohl at optonline.net Tue Jun 24 16:27:57 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:27:57 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans In-Reply-To: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> References: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Message-ID: <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> Just curious, who authored the article? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans > Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on > Spitfires at Le Mans. > Ron Jacobs > Western Eagle Racing > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From westerneagleracing at att.net Tue Jun 24 16:37:51 2008 From: westerneagleracing at att.net (westerneagleracing at att.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:37:51 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans In-Reply-To: <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> Message-ID: <062420082237.8261.4861773F000C09CE0000204522230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Bill: Jim Donnelly with David Hobbs. Pictures from the collection of David Hobbs and Mike Cook -------------- Original message from Bill Sohl : -------------- > Just curious, who authored the article? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:32 PM > Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans > > > > Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on > > Spitfires at Le Mans. > > Ron Jacobs > > Western Eagle Racing > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From spreiss at verizon.net Tue Jun 24 01:34:39 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:34:39 +1100 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <008301c8d5cc$c2c56460$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> My TR3 w/ TR4 engine with 145-150 ft lbs of cylinder compression and H6 SUs with SM needles gets really poor gas milage. I have never gotten much more than 15-16 mpg on a tank of Sunoco 93. Granted I do drive it with elan most of the time, and have never driven long enough at cruising speed to find out what the consumption would be under those conditions. Recently I have gotten the engine to what seems to be very good state of tune. It has great pull below 3500 and willingly goes on up to 5k, but with some loss of pull above 4500. Plugs look clean and mixture adjusted as lean as can be for a smooth idle. New points and did a valve adjustment .010 all accross. Any insights? I even have and use an O.D unit. Tires are 165R15 with 26 LBS pressure. steve P. From spreiss at verizon.net Tue Jun 24 03:53:32 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:53:32 +1100 Subject: [Fot] rear axle Message-ID: <000a01c8d5e0$2a2d1f90$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Anybody ever tried using an MGB diff/rear axle on a TR3? Steve P. Full of questions today From S.Janzen at comcast.net Tue Jun 24 19:41:29 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:41:29 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Message-ID: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree it's expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs and artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't afford to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 estimated, the cost can come down. From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 20:07:13 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:07:13 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <571D6987-34B8-4703-8E07-612D7050A60A@bnj.com> Sure, I'll take two--XXL On Jun 24, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't > disagree it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing > costs and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we > can't afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From lfritz82 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:31:46 2008 From: lfritz82 at hotmail.com (Lorne Fritz) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:31:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance Message-ID: Thanks everyone. Some good ideas. Lorne _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashbac k From john at quantumechanics.com Sun Jun 15 06:41:20 2008 From: john at quantumechanics.com (Quantum) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:41:20 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: <4A96DC2C9A7B4F5D9F43C6F436E60773@desktop1> Jack/Clark - Hi again! I am sorry you are having trouble reaching me, but I now get between 50 and 80 phone calls and 20 to 40 emails each day! It is getting hard to do work answering all the emails and phone calls. I have also had problems getting correct top hat bushes. Some are incorrect depth and will not clearance on the mainshaft gears when stacked, some have bad O/D's and some bad I/D's. I have ordered from Moss and Victoria and I even tried ordering them from Rimmer and got the same junk. I think there is only one supplier and he has no quality control process, so it does not matter who you buy it from, you are going to get some bad ones. I have complained numerous times to these guys. All they do is put a temporary 'not available' on the part until they get in new stock, then start selling again. I think the supplier takes the defective ones back from one supplier and just reships them to another supplier! I have been honing out the bad I/D ones to make them fit. The bad O/D's and incorrect depth I have been sending back for replacements. I think I will look into making them myself through a local machine shop. Can you guys find someone to make them? Thanks! John Quantum Mechanics Ltd. 505 Wheeler Rd. Monroe, Ct. 06468 Phone 203-459-9612 Fax - 203-261-8497 www.quantumechanics.com From tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 15 13:05:01 2008 From: tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net (Tony Crawford) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:05:01 -0500 Subject: [Fot] ROLL BAR for 1961 Triumph TR3A Message-ID: Kas Kastner suggested you may be able to help me. I'm trying to find a roll bar for my 1961 TR3A that would be suitable for racing. Do you know where I could purchase one? Many thanks in advance. Cheers Tony --- Dr Tony Crawford Email: tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net Phone: +1 256-512-5512 +1 256-479-9124 (Cell) From tlizzard at msn.com Wed Jun 25 05:32:59 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:32:59 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <008301c8d5cc$c2c56460$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: My TR3 is similar, except I am running Weber 40 DCOE carbs and headers, and I converted to an electronic igniton from points using a recurved stock distributor. 3.70diff with OD. Same tire size at 30psi. I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the highway at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the less than economical right foot, at least in my case. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Preiss To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:34 AM Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. My TR3 w/ TR4 engine with 145-150 ft lbs of cylinder compression and H6 SUs with SM needles gets really poor gas milage. I have never gotten much more than 15-16 mpg on a tank of Sunoco 93. Granted I do drive it with elan most of the time, and have never driven long enough at cruising speed to find out what the consumption would be under those conditions. Recently I have gotten the engine to what seems to be very good state of tune. It has great pull below 3500 and willingly goes on up to 5k, but with some loss of pull above 4500. Plugs look clean and mixture adjusted as lean as can be for a smooth idle. New points and did a valve adjustment .010 all accross. Any insights? I even have and use an O.D unit. Tires are 165R15 with 26 LBS pressure. steve P. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com From emanteno at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 06:17:11 2008 From: emanteno at comcast.net (emanteno at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:17:11 +0000 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Terry Stetler" >> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the highway > at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. > > All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the less > than economical right foot, at least in my case. FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the top down. Irv Korey From ejmajor250 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 07:40:17 2008 From: ejmajor250 at comcast.net (Ed Major) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:40:17 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. Ed Major '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Terry Stetler" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Terry Stetler" > >>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>> highway >> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >> >> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the >> less >> than economical right foot, at least in my case. > > FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the > top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top > down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a > difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the > top down. > > Irv Korey > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as ejmajor250 at comcast.net From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:09:58 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:09:58 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Message-ID: <8DABE6E6-8EBB-4D94-B1F7-615A95CC069C@bnj.com> This is all worthwhile to hear. I have been considering getting rid of my Ferrari and building a good TR3 as a daily driver from all the bits I have downstairs (at least enough to build two cars). My Ferrari gets 18 in the city and 25 on the highway. I guess I'll keep it. PS. Diane says I was nuts anyway, and if I sold it she'd buy it. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. From fogbro1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 08:16:40 2008 From: fogbro1 at comcast.net (Ed Woods) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:16:40 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Sell Ferrari References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net><001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> <8DABE6E6-8EBB-4D94-B1F7-615A95CC069C@bnj.com> Message-ID: <002d01c8d6ce$1896eb50$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> I'd rather have the TR3 even if the Ferrari gets better gas mileage! Ed Woods From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:29:08 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:29:08 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: John Esposito wrote: > I think the supplier takes the defective ones back from one supplier > and just reships them to another supplier! In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost more than the British sensors. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ The im Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:33:07 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:33:07 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way to 6200 rpm. =80 Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca shback From BillDentin at aol.com Wed Jun 25 08:45:27 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:45:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: In a message dated 06/25/2008 9:29:38 AM Central Daylight Time, hottr6 at hotmail.com writes: > In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our > manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US > cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit > sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. > This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer > what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, > I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. > > FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost > more than the British sensors. > So! Let me get this straight. Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good. That answers a lot of questions. Bill (Damdinger) PS...Many, many years ago I used to sublet grading work to a guy, who used a small Deere dozer with a six way blade. He was very, very good at what he did. He had that saying, "Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good" painted across the hood. This was an earthy, blue collar, one man operation, making a pretty nice marketing statement on his one piece of equipment for the early 1960s. Another one that caught my fancy during the same period was a local waste hauler, whose trucks read, "Satisfaction guaranteed, or double your rubbish back!" ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:47:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:47:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Message-ID: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> I bet the gas mileage could be substantially improved by tuning the carbs. Most older cars I have worked on run amazingly rich. When I show my plugs to other mechanics they generally freak out a little. Every car wrench wants to see some brown, or at least tan. The only place I want to see that is a little in the base circle of the insulator. Sure, that's a holdover from racing motorcycles but these water cooled engines should be even more forgiving. If you showed plugs with tan on the nose to Bobby whatsisname (the guy from Champion) he'd say "you're safe" which meant "you have no idea what you're doing and I won't help you". There's a lot of horsepower and some mileage between slightly rich and just right. I suspect these cars were deliberately set rich to cover a bunch of owner maintenance ills and make them run better when they were cold. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. From spitlist at cox.net Wed Jun 25 09:01:28 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:01:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: Message-ID: <002701c8d6d4$58c86cc0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I have always suspected that my lousy gas mileage was directly related to my driving habits. There seems to be something about getting behind the wheel of a Triumph that increases the testosterone level in males of the human species. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Ingate" To: Cc: "Friends of Triumph" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > Ed Major wrote: > > > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a > > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! > Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way > to 6200 rpm. > > =80 > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:53:56 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:53:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> Message-ID: >>>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>>> is the less than economical right foot, at least in my case. >>> >>> One last thing. Every time you plant your right foot and drive your car with spirit as God and Ferguson intended it probably costs you ten cents. If gas was ten bucks a gallon it might be twenty cents. What a bargain! From tr3a58 at verizon.net Wed Jun 25 08:59:54 2008 From: tr3a58 at verizon.net (tr3a58 at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:59:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <4928227.1677051214405998432.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> When I drive my TR6 or 35 Ford, I don't worry about mileage. Only when I drive my Diesel truck do I worry. 10 MPG pulling the race trailer... Dean T. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > I have always suspected that my lousy gas mileage was directly related > to my driving habits.B There seems to be something about getting behind the wheel of a Triumph that increases the testosterone level in males of the human species. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Ingate" B > To: B > Cc: "Friends of Triumph" B > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > Ed Major wrote: > >> My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing >> a >> Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! > Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way > to 6200 rpm. > > =80 > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback .B It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca B > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html B > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net B > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > B > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net B > Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net B http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot B You are subscribed as tr3a58 at verizon.net B From fubog1 at aol.com Wed Jun 25 09:21:24 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:21:24 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> References: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> Message-ID: <8CAA4EE439E1E6F-D9C-352B@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com> One of the questions that I ask my service customers is "how is the cold-start? Answer, more times than not... "oh it starts up just fine, I don't even have to use the choke". Most street cars are WAY too rich, either wear or incorrect settings. Many are rich to the point of suffering top ring "washdown", especially the later cars with auto chokes. Yes a simple plug check will tell a lot of info. Glen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Babcock To: Ed Major Cc: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:47 am Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. I bet the gas mileage could be substantially improved by tuning the carbs. Most older cars I have worked on run amazingly rich. When I show my plugs to other mechanics they generally freak out a little. Every car wrench wants to see some brown, or at least tan. The only place I want to see that is a little in the base circle of the insulator. Sure, that's a holdover from racing motorcycles but these water cooled engines should be even more forgiving. If you showed plugs with tan on the nose to Bobby whatsisname (the guy from Champion) he'd say "you're safe" which meant "you have no idea what you're doing and I won't help you". There's a lot of horsepower and some mileage between slightly rich and just right. I suspect these cars were deliberately set rich to cover a bunch of owner maintenance ills and make them run better when they were cold. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From greenman62 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 09:40:51 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:40:51 +0000 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I worked for an AV company an number of years ago... the typesetters had a sign in their office It said "Try as we will, we just can't shine shit..." Greenman62 Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... > From: BillDentin at aol.com > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:45:27 -0400 > To: hottr6 at hotmail.com; john at quantumechanics.com > CC: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing > > In a message dated 06/25/2008 9:29:38 AM Central Daylight Time, > hottr6 at hotmail.com writes: > > > > In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our > > manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US > > cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit > > sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. > > This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer > > what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, > > I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. > > > > FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost > > more than the British sensors. > > > > So! Let me get this straight. Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't > good. That answers a lot of questions. > > Bill (Damdinger) > > PS...Many, many years ago I used to sublet grading work to a guy, who used a > small Deere dozer with a six way blade. He was very, very good at what he > did. He had that saying, "Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good" > painted across the hood. This was an earthy, blue collar, one man operation, making > a pretty nice marketing statement on his one piece of equipment for the early > 1960s. Another one that caught my fancy during the same period was a local > waste hauler, whose trucks read, "Satisfaction guaranteed, or double your > rubbish back!" > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as greenman62 at hotmail.com From simon at telephonestogo.ca Wed Jun 25 09:41:36 2008 From: simon at telephonestogo.ca (Simon Rasmussen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:41:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mosport weekend Message-ID: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> I was out on Saturday with my wife and had a very pleasant chat with Tony Drews, also spoke to Matt Molson and some ex Triumph drivers who now are cultivating German accents. We enjoyed watching a huge field splashing around in the rain, Minis coming out on top but TRs well represented. I was wearing a T shirt with a picture of Gilles Villeneuve which I have had for about 30 years and wear only on special occaisions. Looking at the Wolf CanAm car driven once by Villeneuve I spoke for a while to Dino (he noticed the shirt) and had my picture taken kneeling by the car. Rather horrifying to hear of his fatal crash the next day. I offer my condolences to his family and friends. Simon Rasmussen. From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 10:57:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:57:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mosport weekend In-Reply-To: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> References: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> Message-ID: Very sad indeed, he was a very good driver and a nice guy. I saw him drive several times, and I chatted with him at Mosport last year. I'd say something trite, like at least he was doing something he loved, but it was way too soon. I'd say to everyone "be careful" but it really doesn't make sense. Tracks like Mosport and Watkins Glen are inherently more dangerous than many of our home tracks--they're faster, they have challenging corners, and they slap you across the face and call you sissy if you aren't driving them hard enough. There's really no way to go 8/10's, it's more like 5/10's or all out. I love those tracks, but they can bite. We should all remember that as we converge on Watkins Glen. Make sure your car is up to snuff. Make sure your safety gear is safe. Take time to come up to speed. Drive at the level you're comfortable with, not the level you get sucked into. I'm going to try to remember all that myself. Even with those precautions, there's no guarantees. When we step on a race track we need to recognize that. On Jun 25, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Simon Rasmussen wrote: > I was out on Saturday with my wife and had a very pleasant chat with > Tony > Drews, also spoke to Matt Molson and some ex Triumph drivers who now > are > cultivating German accents. We enjoyed watching a huge field > splashing around > in the rain, Minis coming out on top but TRs well represented. > > I was wearing a T shirt with a picture of Gilles Villeneuve which I > have had > for about 30 years and wear only on special occaisions. Looking at > the Wolf > CanAm car driven once by Villeneuve I spoke for a while to Dino (he > noticed > the shirt) and had my picture taken kneeling by the car. Rather > horrifying to > hear of his fatal crash the next day. > I offer my condolences to his family and friends. > Simon Rasmussen. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From kaskas at cox.net Wed Jun 25 14:06:04 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:06:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yes indeed the top up makes a huge difference. When were testing the stock TR-250 at Daytona the top up made about a 3 mph improvement. -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:17 AM To: "Terry Stetler" ; Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Terry Stetler" > >>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>> highway >> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >> >> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the >> less >> than economical right foot, at least in my case. > > FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the > top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top > down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a > difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the > top down. > > Irv Korey > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Wed Jun 25 16:38:36 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:38:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: <4FEF7BAC.4A6B9A26.00159EE9@cs.com> Cid Lessard was also there with his great looking and well driven Spitfire. Folks were asking if Russ would be back. Outside of the obvious it was a great weekend. Joe Alexander >The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. > >Our paddock was anchored at it's usual location inside turn one, and >under our tents we had the cars of Keith Files, Tony Drews, Mark >Wheatley and me. Friday's three sessions went off with one hitch, on the >final session Keith's car dropped out with a seized engine. Looks like >another victim of the oil pump drive shaft tang shearing. The plan was >hatched to get the car back in form for the Glen in September. > >Saturday morning we had a qualifying session to determine grid position >for the afternoon qualifying race. Tony qualified 10th, Mark 11th, and I >was 13th. We were a few tenths apart. On the warm up lap the rain >started. Kind of light at first, but by the time the green flag fell it >was quite wet. I delighted to watch Mark work his racecraft and pick and >wiggle his way to round turn one in second place! Tony was in the inside >lane and was held up with nowhere to go. As we slid around with all the >Minis and Mustangs and a Corvette and even a 1962 Galaxie 500 I got >increasing uneasy, and on our second tear up the back straight a >microburst of heavy rain hit. I had enough and came in, Mark finished >5th, while Tony worked his way up to 8th. > >On Sunday morning's race we saw Tony Drews run a 144.9, Mark Wheatley >turn a 1:44.8, and I ran a 1:44.6. OK, in the column that really counts, >Tony came in 6th overall, Mark finished 8th, and I came in 14th. I had >a hoot running through traffic while our boys out front battled for >bragging rights. > >Mike and Sandy Jackson pulled the Trailer of Templeton Formula Vees, and >Mike piloted the Shadowfax while hired gun Dick Ryan ran the freshly >restored Ringwraith. The Ringwraith looks great, congrats on a job well >done, Mike! > >Bud Babcock was there in his gorgeous TR3, and Ivan Ivanyshyn piloted >the ex-Dave Herd Spitfire. Matt Molson ran his TR6 as well. > >Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That >combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible >enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are >extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the >highlight of my season. >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From mini at wi.rr.com Wed Jun 25 20:57:16 2008 From: mini at wi.rr.com (Richard Gehweiler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:57:16 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? Richard Gehweiler mini at wi.rr.com 1.262.894.5460 From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 22:23:50 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:23:50 -0700 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 Message-ID: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), headers (homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From rocky at spitfire4.com Thu Jun 26 00:02:17 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:02:17 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring References: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> Message-ID: <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Or early ones? Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gehweiler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? > > > > Richard Gehweiler > > mini at wi.rr.com > > 1.262.894.5460 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com From goodparts at verizon.net Thu Jun 26 04:11:51 2008 From: goodparts at verizon.net (Richard Good) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:11:51 -0400 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 In-Reply-To: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> References: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <48636B67.9020707@verizon.net> Jim, The front vac unit advances the timing with vacuum and the rear one retards. My preference is to connect the front unit directly to manifold vacuum at the banjo fitting on top of the manifold. This gives it full advance at idle and light throttle and as the engine load increases, the vacuum drops and the timing retards to keep it from pinging. Set the timing just short of pinging at any any load. The throttle response should be very snappy. The only down side is a tendency to run on when you shut it down. The unused vac unit may be left open but obviously you need to plug any unused vac ports on the carb. Richard Good Good Parts jim hearn wrote: >I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was >previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only >mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), headers >(homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only >have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum >unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another >way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks, Jim From robertten1 at aol.com Thu Jun 26 09:20:18 2008 From: robertten1 at aol.com (robertten1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:20:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring In-Reply-To: <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> References: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Message-ID: <8CAA5B746C88AF9-3B0-18F@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. My 2 cents, Bob T '64 Spit GT autocrosser -----Original Message----- From: Rocky Entriken To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Or early ones? Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gehweiler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? > > > > Richard Gehweiler > > mini at wi.rr.com > > 1.262.894.5460 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com From colordog.1 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 26 12:07:09 2008 From: colordog.1 at earthlink.net (colordog.1 at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:07:09 +0000 Subject: [Fot] TR3 oil cooler hoses?? Message-ID: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Is it possible to install the oil cooler lines to the filter adaptor plate with the motor in the car? It looks like there isn't room to get a wrench onto the front fitting. If so it's a 1/4 turn at a time situation (with oily hands!). Steve Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 12:36:19 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:36:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR3 oil cooler hoses?? In-Reply-To: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8171AA7B-D38C-4665-8E77-F1477138CAE0@bnj.com> Absolutely. It's no fun, but you can do it. You might be able to put them on the plate before you install it. Depends on your plate. No dice with mine. On Jun 26, 2008, at 11:07 AM, colordog.1 at earthlink.net wrote: > Is it possible to install the oil cooler lines to the filter adaptor > plate with the motor in the car? > It looks like there isn't room to get a wrench onto the front > fitting. If so it's a 1/4 turn at a time situation (with oily > hands!). > > Steve > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jsiam1 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 26 18:16:16 2008 From: jsiam1 at earthlink.net (Joseph Siam) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:16:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <13083349.1214525776997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi All I've got two I cant use. Both brand new never installed I would like to sell them. thanks Joe 818 350 6222 -----Original Message----- >From: robertten1 at aol.com >Sent: Jun 26, 2008 8:20 AM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > >Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. >Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. > >My 2 cents, >Bob T >'64 Spit GT autocrosser > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rocky Entriken >To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > > >Or early ones? > >Rocky Entriken > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Gehweiler" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM >Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > >> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? >> >> >> >> Richard Gehweiler >> >> mini at wi.rr.com >> >> 1.262.894.5460 >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as jsiam1 at earthlink.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 26 20:28:01 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:28:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and the silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be candid, most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a dinner and a drink. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Janzen" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree > it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs > and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't > afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 26 20:43:49 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:43:49 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen - KOA Campground In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> Linda and I will be staying at the Watkins Glen KOA campground again fior this years Vintage Event. We plan to arrive at the campground on Thurday. The KOA is only a couple of miles from the track entrance..it's actually so close you can hear the cars practicing. Anyone else from FOT staying there? Cheers, Bill & Linda Sohl 1961 TR-3A (We are signed up for the Tour de Marque...any other FOTers signed up?) From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 26 21:06:51 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:06:51 -0700 Subject: [Fot] PIR threatened by fire Message-ID: <20080627030714.JAEB11775.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Phoenix International Raceway was threatened by a 2000 acre wildfire. Check out photo #5 (of 11) to see how close the fire is to the track. The photo is looking back through NASCAR Turn 3 to the back straight. http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/slideshowfull/1238/5 More video and photos. http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/2008/06/26/20080626abrk-brushfire0625-ON.html Photo 12 shows the entire raceway and the smoke next to it. From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 21:11:27 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:11:27 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <690DFCE6-55EA-4D6D-BE3E-589BBD441617@bnj.com> Or even the insignificant ones. On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:28 PM, Bill Sohl wrote: > Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and > the > silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be > candid, > most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a > dinner > and a drink. > > Cheers, > Bill Sohl > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Janzen" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM > Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > > >> Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did >> get a >> negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't >> disagree >> it's >> expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing >> costs >> and >> artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. >> Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't >> afford >> to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 >> estimated, >> the cost can come down. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 21:13:01 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:13:01 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen - KOA Campground In-Reply-To: <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> Message-ID: If I were bringing Nero I'd be staying at the track, but Tony Garmey is bringing Peyote along with a bunch of other Northwest cars. So we're staying in a Hampton Inn at Painted somethingorother. On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Bill Sohl wrote: > Linda and I will be staying at the Watkins Glen KOA campground again > fior > this years Vintage Event. > We plan to arrive at the campground on Thurday. > > The KOA is only a couple of miles from the track entrance..it's > actually so > close you can hear the cars practicing. > > Anyone else from FOT staying there? > > Cheers, > Bill & Linda Sohl > 1961 TR-3A (We are signed up for the Tour de Marque...any other FOTers > signed up?) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From N197TR4 at cs.com Fri Jun 27 09:07:39 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:07:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Message-ID: Scott, Thanks for all of your work. Greg Petrolati called recently and he seemed very pleased with his artwork. I am sure we all will be pleased. I need to place an order myself and will do so shortly. If you are marginal on numbers, let me know, and perhaps there is a way to kick them up where they need to be. This Friends of Triumph event is turning out to be quite a Triumph Reunion and is likely not to be duplicated. Joe A > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > From trhouse at greenapple.com Fri Jun 27 09:25:11 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:25:11 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel exhaust. there is reportedly a British car auction in the Granville Ohio area in the next couple of weeks anyone got any info on it or nelson reidels Phone number. Thanks tom From BillDentin at aol.com Fri Jun 27 09:31:05 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:31:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: In a message dated 06/27/2008 10:26:07 AM Central Daylight Time, trhouse at greenapple.com writes: > I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM > Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would > car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light > was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til > light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire > wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and > the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. > the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way > after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some > fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at > the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as > a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel > exhaust. > Tom... You're kidding, right? Someone stole that? What, was it full of gas? Love, Bill (Damdinger) ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From spitfiresuz at 141.com Fri Jun 27 09:37:06 2008 From: spitfiresuz at 141.com (Susan Kahler) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:37:06 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48650922.7030603@141.com> Hi Tom! I am so sorry to hear about your car! That is one bold person, to just take it off from in front of your house. I searched on line and found these auctions: http://www.hemmings.com/calendar/?category_id=1&location= There is a listing for the Mid-Ohio auction in July, and several others that may be worth checking. I also found this auction: http://columbus.craigslist.org/eve/721772383.html You should probably be checking Craigslist and eBay for parts from your car (crazedlist.com is a Craigslist aggregator--it will let you search different areas at the same time). It is very possible they broke it down and are selling parts. More likely it is on its way overseas. :( Good luck! I hope you are able to find it in unmolested condition! Susan :) Tom Householder wrote: > I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM > Tuesday Morning . From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 27 10:54:29 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tom, I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. I really hope this person is caught! Tom Householder wrote: I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel exhaust. there is reportedly a British car auction in the Granville Ohio area in the next couple of weeks anyone got any info on it or nelson reidels Phone number. Thanks tom Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as sbracing at sbcglobal.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Fri Jun 27 11:08:56 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:08:56 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The engine was performanced out in the past few years . Had an alloy valvecover etc. Photos are available if interested . tom on 6/27/08 12:54 PM, Steven Benford Jr at sbracing at sbcglobal.net wrote: Tom, I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 27 11:18:48 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:18:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: I sent a copy to Scott Harper at Team Triumph too....he gets a lot of parts and car strips calls, in Warren,Ohio ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From jsiam1 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 27 12:05:00 2008 From: jsiam1 at earthlink.net (Joseph Siam) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:05:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <28893705.1214589900847.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi All I have two springs I can't use both are new never installed 250# I paid $320 each will sell for $ 270 + shipping. Thanks Joe -----Original Message----- >From: robertten1 at aol.com >Sent: Jun 26, 2008 8:20 AM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > >Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. >Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. > >My 2 cents, >Bob T >'64 Spit GT autocrosser > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rocky Entriken >To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > > >Or early ones? > >Rocky Entriken > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Gehweiler" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM >Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > >> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? >> >> >> >> Richard Gehweiler >> >> mini at wi.rr.com >> >> 1.262.894.5460 >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as jsiam1 at earthlink.net From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 27 13:08:01 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:08:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] battery question Message-ID: <010001c8d889$1ebe3440$5c3a9cc0$@net> Sorry to bomb the list. I have a question regarding deep cycle batteries for a motor home application. Anybody have some savy on this topic? I have run twin deep cycle Marine twelve volt 27 series batteries in the past and have a problem keeping them. These are not for starting or running the drive train, I have a separate 27 series automotive battery for that. The latest pair died and I found out the value of that warranty. Worth zip! There's a surprise. That's the third set since 2000. Ouch! Russ Moore From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 27 15:21:25 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:21:25 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: I am sorry but I am not going to make the GLEN race but I am sure there are others such as I that would buy Hats and shirts that can't be there $20.00 is as easy as 19.$. Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Sohl To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and the silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be candid, most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a dinner and a drink. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Janzen" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree > it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs > and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't > afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From stutzmans at comcast.net Fri Jun 27 18:11:38 2008 From: stutzmans at comcast.net (Stutzman) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:11:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 References: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <002a01c8d8b3$895e3fa0$c70aa8c0@D9DGQM31> The vacuum unit pointing forward is advance. The vacuum unit facing toward the firewall is retard. The advance unit connects to the front carb and the retard unit connects to rhe rear carb. Disconnect the retard unit and plug the line to the carb.All the retard unit does is retard the spark at idle and give you a lousy idle. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim hearn" To: "'Friends of Triumph'" Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 >I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was > previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only > mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), > headers > (homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only > have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum > unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another > way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, Jim > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had > a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as stutzmans at comcast.net From tony at tonydrews.com Fri Jun 27 19:00:43 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:00:43 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080628010026.8A1BA18789F@autox.team.net> I sent it on to the Thicko list. Good idea. - Tony At 11:54 AM 6/27/2008, Steven Benford Jr wrote: >From: Steven Benford Jr >To: Tom Householder Subject: Re: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) > >Tom, > > I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack > and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I > am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. From igofaster at charter.net Sat Jun 28 17:49:30 2008 From: igofaster at charter.net (igofaster at charter.net) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:49:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080628194930.8GLLB.592771.root@fepweb03> Hello FoT! I have this lovely Toyota T50 mated up to a GT6 bellhousing. I also own a TR6 with NO overdrive. Two questions... One, will the GT6 bellhousing mate up to a TR6 block... like can I use the T50 in my TR6? five beautiful speeds, forward!!! Second, can I mate a TR6 transmission up to a GT6? Bobby Whitehead From Gt6steve at aol.com Sat Jun 28 17:55:05 2008 From: Gt6steve at aol.com (Gt6steve at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:55:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines Message-ID: Yes and no to both questions. The GT6 and TR6 rear engine plates are subtly different, proving these cars were built by commitee. The GT6 and TR6 flanges are also on a different boltcenter. Nothing that can't be overcome. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From wgrosenbach at juno.com Sat Jun 28 18:01:15 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:01:15 -0600 Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines Message-ID: <20080628.180117.2364.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>> will the GT6 bellhousing mate up to a TR6 block? Yes. With the correct rear enging plate. >>>can I mate a TR6 transmission up to a GT6? Yes. But the ratios are not very satisfying. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Click here to save cash and find low rates on auto loans. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ndyIRPK7RhmGoHiWQk4E7mr78rUXaI5biwq9r4UhVFsgXqC/ From cak at dimebank.com Sat Jun 28 18:30:58 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? Message-ID: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... From claus at triumphracing.net Sun Jun 29 07:13:35 2008 From: claus at triumphracing.net (claus at triumphracing.net) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:13:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> And what works, one might add. I was surfing the web for information on good systems for for my GT6 Mk2 and my saloon 2.5PI (both road cars), and came across this thread: http://www.totallytriumph.net/dcforum/DCForumID19/2.shtml I hadn't heard about Gareth Thomas before, but after reading the above purchased his Tuning Manual via Ebay. I found that his writing is certainly another type of prose than Kas Kastners books - rather aggressive, in fact much like the thread above, where the author posted some thoughts on the exhaust manifolds. However much of the information is very general and not always really exact in how nor even specific in what to do. His thoughts did get me wondering about the manifolds, though: Even to the point of considering whether anyone of the currently available 6-3-1 systems are good enough to warrant spending money on? Certainly Mr. Thomas doesn't hold the Moss system in high esteem... > Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has > dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as claus at triumphracing.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 13:00:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:00:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> Message-ID: <25EF69C7-2E3C-43FD-8061-5160ADB4C10B@bnj.com> Clearly knows what he's doing as far as cars go, though his notion that everyone is "stealing my stuff" is tiresome. We're all copying Harry Ricardo and the guys who figured everything out. The biggest fights are for the smallest prize. On Jun 29, 2008, at 6:13 AM, claus at triumphracing.net wrote: > And what works, one might add. I was surfing the web for information > on > good systems for for my GT6 Mk2 and my saloon 2.5PI (both road > cars), and > came across this thread: > > http://www.totallytriumph.net/dcforum/DCForumID19/2.shtml > > I hadn't heard about Gareth Thomas before, but after reading the above > purchased his Tuning Manual via Ebay. I found that his writing is > certainly another type of prose than Kas Kastners books - rather > aggressive, in fact much like the thread above, where the author > posted > some thoughts on the exhaust manifolds. However much of the > information is > very general and not always really exact in how nor even specific in > what > to do. > > His thoughts did get me wondering about the manifolds, though: Even > to the > point of considering whether anyone of the currently available 6-3-1 > systems are good enough to warrant spending money on? Certainly Mr. > Thomas > doesn't hold the Moss system in high esteem... > > > >> Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has >> dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as claus at triumphracing.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 14:47:43 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:47:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 29 14:54:58 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:54:58 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <000c01c8da2a$645a4be0$0202a8c0@newcomputer> I built an aluminum shroud that attached to the radiator frame. The fan attached to the shroud. Worked great Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jim hearn Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:48 PM To: 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 15:51:31 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:51:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000c01c8da2a$645a4be0$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <000001c8da32$4ae12c30$b1191718@computer> Do I ultimately want the fan housing to even touch the radiator or should it be mounted (on a special mount) back from the surface of the radiator face by an 1/8 to 1/4 inch? Do you have any photos of the shroud you made? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Curry [mailto:spitlist at cox.net] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:55 PM To: 'jim hearn'; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: RE: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I built an aluminum shroud that attached to the radiator frame. The fan attached to the shroud. Worked great Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jim hearn Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:48 PM To: 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From jrherrera90 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:11:44 2008 From: jrherrera90 at hotmail.com (John Herrera) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:11:44 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan> to gain the hp. I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power used to drive the fan. Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases losses. What am I missing? John H. From rjl at gt-classics.com Sun Jun 29 16:15:32 2008 From: rjl at gt-classics.com (R. John Lye) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:15:32 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <20.22.19958.77908684@smtp07.embarq.synacor.com> At 06:11 PM 6/29/2008, John Herrera wrote: >Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move >the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where >I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only >thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of >the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do >you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases >losses. > >What am I missing? One part that you are missing is that the electric fan can be turned off when it is not needed, and therefore it won't draw power all the time. The crank mounted fan spins and draws power whether or not it is actually needed. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:17:11 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:17:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street car driven over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, but if you drag raced that car against another the lack of a fan would be horsepower to the good. Also, unless your fan has a very trick clutch it rotates at variable RPM which is as bad for a fan's efficiency as it is for a propellor. On Jun 29, 2008, at 3:11 PM, John Herrera wrote: >> I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt >> driven fan> > to gain the hp. > > > I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power > used to > drive the fan. > > Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven > fan move > the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe > this is where > I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. > The only > thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator > instead of > the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, > so what do > you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which > increases > losses. > > What am I missing? > > John H. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 29 16:23:23 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:23 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Mechanical fan draws from the engine's power to spin the fan. Electric fan draws from the battery to spin the fan. Only if the alternator/generator requires the same amount of power to charge the battery does there achieve no difference in power requirements. Since alternators are typically more efficient than mechanical fans, it is a net gain in power if you use an electric fan. Even greater difference if you don't have an alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if you want to charge the battery between runs. Joe -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Herrera Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:12 PM To: jim hearn; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan> to gain the hp. I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power used to drive the fan. Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases losses. What am I missing? John H. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:23:27 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:27 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <6FED297C-260E-482C-A2A1-3F03A38025A9@bnj.com> I learned NOT to mount the fan in front of the radiator. It caused Peyote to actually overheat--first time ever. I'd never use the ties again either--they might be too soft to rub through the radiator metal, but the grit that gathers around them is not. I got a leaky rad from a push-through mount. I just made a bracket to mount the fan in back of the radiator (spaced well away) and ran it as a puller. You only run it on the grid or when tuning anyway. Now I actually have made a removable fan that I just stick in for hot days on the grid or tuning. On Jun 29, 2008, at 1:47 PM, jim hearn wrote: > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt > driven fan > to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high > density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way > through the > radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the > aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef > which had a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 29 16:25:24 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:25:24 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080629222524.FURE7689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street > car driven over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, > but if you drag raced that car against another the lack of a > fan would be horsepower to the good. In addition, hopefully the electric fan runs only when needed; which should generally only be at lower speeds. In day-to-day driving, mine comes on only when I'm stuck in traffic, or just got off the freeway. The actual duty cycle is quite low. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 29 16:32:40 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:32:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Even greater difference if you don't have an > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > you want to charge the battery between runs. Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full power. Randall From rjl at gt-classics.com Sun Jun 29 16:36:36 2008 From: rjl at gt-classics.com (R. John Lye) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:36:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <89.CD.03947.76E08684@smtp08.embarq.synacor.com> At 06:32 PM 6/29/2008, Randall wrote: > > Even greater difference if you don't have an > > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > > you want to charge the battery between runs. > >Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you >mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best >of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full >power. I've seen it done on a Prepared class Spridget - which won several National SCCA titles. He just mounted a microswitch that controlled a relay to disable the alternator when the throttle pedal was sufficiently depressed. It seemed to work well. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net From cak at dimebank.com Sun Jun 29 16:59:26 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <200806292259.m5TMxQTJ024684@moose.dimebank.com> The other thing that you're missing is that the electric radiator turns at its design speed all the time its running. The fan connected to the crankshaft spins at the engine speed - which means, especially in a race situation, that it's usually turning much faster than it was designed for, and is mostly wasting energy instead of moving air (the blades are just 'stalling'). From wgrosenbach at juno.com Sun Jun 29 18:18:42 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:18:42 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you need! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 18:27:07 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:27:07 +0000 Subject: [Fot] French Grand Prix Message-ID: <063020080027.20088.4868285B00070B5600004E7822147564020A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Does anyone out there have the Formula One French Grand Prix recorded? If so...is it legal to burn a copy of it for me? I forgot to set the DVR when I left and didn't get to see the race coverage...although in fairness I did get to see the race from Esciente Golf on the back straight at Magny Cours. :) I'd just like to have footage of the race like I do for every other pro race I've been to. aaron From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 18:33:36 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:33:36 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Any weight or drag removed from the 'Rotating Mass' is a big help for power..less effort to spin stuff Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From Robertten1 at aol.com Sun Jun 29 19:51:48 2008 From: Robertten1 at aol.com (Robertten1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:51:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? Message-ID: Check out the Triumph Sports Six Club in jolly ole England, you'll find a couple of choises. Cheers, Bob T. PS if that is too far check out APT Fast on the west coast, the carry the Maniflow brand. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From bswope959 at msn.com Sun Jun 29 20:46:10 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:46:10 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR4 MOTOR Message-ID: Any one jot a sorce for a new TR-4 motor with heads Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:31:11 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:31:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: It's not the weight, it's the fan. Takes a lot of horsepower to turn that at high speed when it's stalling and fluttering. Maybe then horsepower or more. Water pumps are pretty bad too, as are oil pumps. On Jun 29, 2008, at 5:33 PM, RACER BUD wrote: > Any weight or drag removed from the 'Rotating Mass' is a big help for > power..less effort to spin stuff > Racer Bud > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William G Rosenbach" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density > radiator > > >>>>> I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a >>>>> gain in >> horsepower. >> >> It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my >> Spitfire >> 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of >> life, >> running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When >> it did, >> it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. >> Bill >> ____________________________________________________________ From lang at isis.mit.edu Sun Jun 29 21:42:12 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: Hi, Anecdotal reference: JK and GRM took a TR6 to a dyno to tune it... the goal was Street Prepared SCCA Solo. The BIGGEST HP gain they got in the exercise was 8 HP. They put on Webers, played with timing, added a header... all the legal street prepared stuff (no internal mods) and losing the fan was the big "winner". They removed the crank driven fan and got 8 HP. That's huge for a "free" upgrade. The answer is that the parasitic loss from the fan blade drag is always there (from idle to the red line). An electric fan is way more efficient and your aren't connecting it to the CRANK. There's no mechanical advantage or anything when you connect to the crank. About the only thing you should drive from the crank is a supercharger. :-) I dumped the fans on my TR6's years ago. c ya, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From triosan at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:45:03 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:45:03 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806292045h708a767fnc660d3596e3759b1@mail.gmail.com> See Kas's last book for the header sold by Tony Lindsey-Dean out of England. 6-3-1. Beautiful welds. Cost me $600 plus shipping a couple of years ago. See pictures and a comparison to a Pacesetter header at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/KingstonHeaderVerusPacesetter On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has > dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as triosan at gmail.com > -- Chuck Arnold From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 21:58:07 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:58:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <89.CD.03947.76E08684@smtp08.embarq.synacor.com> Message-ID: <000501c8da65$815c6fd0$b1191718@computer> I unplug my alternator when racing. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of R. John Lye Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:37 PM To: Randall; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator At 06:32 PM 6/29/2008, Randall wrote: > > Even greater difference if you don't have an > > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > > you want to charge the battery between runs. > >Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you >mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best >of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full >power. I've seen it done on a Prepared class Spridget - which won several National SCCA titles. He just mounted a microswitch that controlled a relay to disable the alternator when the throttle pedal was sufficiently depressed. It seemed to work well. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jimhearn1 at comcast.net From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 22:33:14 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (rob) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> but I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was a little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running with out the alt? rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 22:40:39 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:40:39 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <000401c8da6b$72d00390$0202a8c0@Bud> Maybe I'm not in the loop here...On my race car, I use an electric fan..mounted in front of the radiator..inside the shroud...I only turn it on when my temp goes up..I have no fan whatsoever attached to the engine... are you guys talking about street cars? Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "rob" <19to1tr6 at comcast.net> To: ; "William G Rosenbach" Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> > but > I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was > a > little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing > are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the > recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min > session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running > with out the alt? rob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William G Rosenbach" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density > radiator > > >>>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in >> horsepower. >> >> It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire >> 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, >> running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, >> it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. >> Bill >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car >> you >> need! >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 23:34:41 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:41 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c8da72$fec269e0$b1191718@computer> What is the crank trigger that you speak of? -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of rob Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:33 PM To: jrherrera90 at hotmail.com; William G Rosenbach Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> but I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was a little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running with out the alt? rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8Mf EeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jimhearn1 at comcast.net From henry at henryfrye.com Mon Jun 30 05:36:21 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:36:21 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <8cbd782d0806292045h708a767fnc660d3596e3759b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD40A3B0A@server.Triumph.local> Wow, that Tony Lindsey-Dean header looks really, really nice. I don't race a 6 cyl, but that header would look great on my shop wall. While my wife wouldn't blink paying that kind of money for art for the house, I can't justify it for the shop wall. But, if I got one, I might be enticed to build a TR250 racer and try to catch up with Leo at VIR! Does anybody know what happened to Fletcher's TR250 racer that was at The Mitty a couple years ago? :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Arnold > Subject: Re: [Fot] GT6 headers? > > See Kas's last book for the header sold by Tony Lindsey-Dean > out of England. 6-3-1. Beautiful welds. Cost me $600 plus > shipping a couple of years ago. > See pictures and a comparison to a Pacesetter header at: > http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/KingstonHeaderVerusPacesetter From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 30 09:08:30 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:08:30 EDT Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ Message-ID: FoT List, If you are NOT interested in this, please delete. I heard from Ishahara-Johnson Crank Scrapers, today. There are medical issues in the family and testing for these issues has slowed the progress down a bit. The 2-3 Triumph Pre-Group Orders are slated to ship this week, as I understand it. I suspect that all Group Orders will ship all during the month of July, including mine. Based on what I have heard so far, our patience will be rewarded with a fine product. If you have a window of opportunity to install in your engineand would like to put a RUSH on your order, I can try to expedite. Regards, Joe From igofaster at charter.net Mon Jun 30 09:26:46 2008 From: igofaster at charter.net (igofaster at charter.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 8:26:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080630112646.EUTKA.610540.root@fepweb02> Rimmer Brothers in England has a nice stainless steel header system that , if you choose, has a complete stainless steel system, all the way to the tailpipe. It's a three into two into one system... bolted right up, WITHOUT tweaking! I had one on my green GT6+, although I never raced that car. rimmerbros.com they have a nice catalog for the GT6 as well as others... I found them years ago when I restored my Triumph 2000 Saloon.... Bobby Whitehead #54CVAR YELLOW GT6+ From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Mon Jun 30 09:26:19 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:26:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? Scott From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 30 09:34:48 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:34:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Countdown to Watkins Glen-Commercial Offering Message-ID: FOT Glen Attendees and Participants Other than a cash sponsorship from Classic Motorsports, I have not solicited for any funds or contributions from the FoT. I still am not soliciting for funds. However, if any FOT Commercial entity would like to hang a sign, place an easel, show some product, hand out samples, please do. If you wish to donate some amount to the FOT coffers, please do. Or not. No direct vending would be anticipated....Ted has to pay for that privilege and that wouldnt be fair to him or the track. There are many folks donating time and effort and costs to make this weekend happen. TRF is bringing in the TRS....Joe Richards & Robert Smith are bringing in TS1 at great personal expense....The VTR is supplying a Glen event poster....BDI is supplying the Golf Car for Peg & Kas.....WPTA will be very visible with their usual contribution of HOSPITALITY, etc. There are folks coming in from far reaches & bringing significantly historic cars. Unless the gas prices cause a mass retreat, this event is going to HUGE. So, if you wish to contact me about what you might do, we can discuss. Showing wares that enhance the performance of our cars seems like a beneficial thing to do and entertaining, as well. Do as you wish. I'd like to see Ratco bring in a TR frame for display, but he wants to have fun, not work. :-) I hope this doesnt open up a fire storm...it is not intended to. If it does, I'll shut the idea down. I am spread a bit thin and may stub my toe...my apologies in advance. Thanks, Joe From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 30 09:36:15 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:36:15 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <01DBA883CB7540BFAE78993302223E60@RW> Back in my TR-3 racing days I did all the tests of the fan mounted to the crank. We were not allowed to remove the fan, but I found I could flatten the blades enough that I got almost the same result. This did require some serious heat to the hub. Racers will always be ahead of the rules makers. -------------------------------------------------- From: "William G Rosenbach" Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 30 09:57:24 2008 From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com (rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:57:24 -0400 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings Message-ID: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. If it is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe placement is key. Bob GT6 TR4 Datsun 2000 Datsun 510 trans am ---- "Barr wrote: > Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures > are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching > 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Mon Jun 30 10:17:32 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:17:32 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> References: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Thanks, Bob. The probes in the header I was using at the last race weekend ARE too close to the head - about 3 inches from the port. So I didn't believe the 1400 degree reading on the EGT, as you suggest. We just installed the skinniest needles I own (BGs) and screwed the jets down until they were ready to fall out. With those changes, it was still running at 1400 degrees on the rear EGT at between 8,000 and 8,500 revs, with lower temps on the #1 probe. All four plugs had an even tan color to them, no white ones, no dark ones. Then the exhaust valve on #4, the cylinder with the higher readings, went away (stuck open, broke off?) and did some impressive damage to the piston and combustion chamber. Could be just coincidence that the highest EGT readings were from the cylinder where we had the problem with the exhaust valve, but I'm not inclined to bet another engine on it :-) This weekend we plugged in a spare motor and swapped to another header with the probe holes in the correct location, according to the instructions, and found that I still had significantly higher exhaust gas temperatures on #4 (1250 degrees at idle). I'm presently looking for an air leak to explain the significant difference between #1 and #4. If I don't find an air leak, I'll start looking for other explanations. But all of that raises the question - how hot is too hot? Is 1400 degrees acceptable? 1450? All day? Scott -----Original Message----- From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com [mailto:rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:57 AM To: Barr, Scott Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] EGT readings One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. If it is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe placement is key. Bob GT6 TR4 Datsun 2000 Datsun 510 trans am ---- "Barr wrote: > Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas > temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back > were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 10:36:43 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:36:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> References: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Message-ID: How high is up? there are too many factors to be able to answer that question. The burn flame temperature in a typical engine is 3000-3500 degrees. That cools rapidly as the gas expands out the exhaust port but that's where it starts. At the end of the exhaust pipe, even a relatively short one, the temperature is only 200 degrees or thereabouts. EGT is a relative indication. That said, you probably have an air leak. On Jun 30, 2008, at 9:17 AM, Barr, Scott wrote: > Thanks, Bob. > > The probes in the header I was using at the last race weekend ARE too > close to the head - about 3 inches from the port. So I didn't believe > the 1400 degree reading on the EGT, as you suggest. We just installed > the skinniest needles I own (BGs) and screwed the jets down until they > were ready to fall out. With those changes, it was still running at > 1400 degrees on the rear EGT at between 8,000 and 8,500 revs, with > lower > temps on the #1 probe. All four plugs had an even tan color to > them, no > white ones, no dark ones. > > Then the exhaust valve on #4, the cylinder with the higher readings, > went away (stuck open, broke off?) and did some impressive damage to > the > piston and combustion chamber. > > Could be just coincidence that the highest EGT readings were from the > cylinder where we had the problem with the exhaust valve, but I'm not > inclined to bet another engine on it :-) > > This weekend we plugged in a spare motor and swapped to another header > with the probe holes in the correct location, according to the > instructions, and found that I still had significantly higher exhaust > gas temperatures on #4 (1250 degrees at idle). I'm presently looking > for an air leak to explain the significant difference between #1 and > #4. > If I don't find an air leak, I'll start looking for other > explanations. > > But all of that raises the question - how hot is too hot? Is 1400 > degrees acceptable? 1450? All day? > > Scott > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com [mailto:rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:57 AM > To: Barr, Scott > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] EGT readings > > One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. > If it > is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you > think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining > if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your > pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe > placement is key. > > Bob > GT6 > TR4 > Datsun 2000 > Datsun 510 trans am > ---- "Barr wrote: >> Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas >> temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends >> back > >> were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? >> >> Scott >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 13:12:28 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:12:28 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting Message-ID: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. It runs great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I connect the second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to the extent it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory cloth through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading points at 29 degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 degrees and total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here . . . what's wrong with the second set? From walt at hot-tr6.com Mon Jun 30 13:50:06 2008 From: walt at hot-tr6.com (Walter Hollowell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:50:06 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <20080630194946.83CCB18786B@autox.team.net> Throw on a new condensor. Start with the easiest things first. I run a Mallory on my TR6 and when it starts missing or backfiring I swap condensors and my problems go away. Walt Abq., NM -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+walt=hot-tr6.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+walt=hot-tr6.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Scott Janzen Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 1:12 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. It runs great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I connect the second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to the extent it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory cloth through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading points at 29 degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 degrees and total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here . . . what's wrong with the second set? Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as walt at hot-tr6.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 15:35:51 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:35:51 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> In the first place, NEVER run emory cloth through points. If you have a diamond point file then you can dress them carefully, but emory cloth just rounds the edges and reduces the contact area. I don't bother to look at the dwell of dual point distributors. Just set the point gap (to .025 as I recall, but I'm away from the notes) and then adjust the timing. My guess is that you're setting the point gap too narrow when you try to set dwell, but I could be wrong. Also, always suspect condensers--they're junk these days. On Jun 30, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. > It runs > great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I > connect the > second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to > the extent > it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory > cloth > through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading > points at 29 > degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 > degrees and > total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious > here . . . what's > wrong with the second set? > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From twakeman at razzolink.com Mon Jun 30 16:45:07 2008 From: twakeman at razzolink.com (TeriAnn Wakeman) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:45:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> References: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> Message-ID: <486961F3.3090602@razzolink.com> Bill Babcock wrote: > always suspect condensers--they're junk these days. > > Also if you are loosing condensers on a regular basis always suspect your distributor's ground. I was going through condensers like popcorn until I added a ground wire between the screw attaching the condenser and the engine block (screw holding the coil on). Haven't lost one since. Somehow a less than perfect ground kills Mallory condensers. Teriann From jerrybarr at charter.net Mon Jun 30 16:46:19 2008 From: jerrybarr at charter.net (Jerry Barr) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:46:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> I hope you have better luck with them than I have. I ordered two complete scrapers with the teflon inserts in early April. I paid for them by credit card and have never received them. I called in early June and they told me they would be shipped within the week, I still haven't received them. Jerry Barr On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:08 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: > FoT List, > > If you are NOT interested in this, please delete. > > I heard from Ishahara-Johnson Crank Scrapers, today. There are > medical > issues in the family and testing for these issues has slowed the > progress down a > bit. > > The 2-3 Triumph Pre-Group Orders are slated to ship this week, as I > understand it. > > I suspect that all Group Orders will ship all during the month of > July, > including mine. Based on what I have heard so far, our patience > will be rewarded > with a fine product. > > If you have a window of opportunity to install in your engineand > would like > to put a RUSH on your order, I can try to expedite. > > Regards, > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as jerrybarr at charter.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Mon Jun 30 17:36:46 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:36:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Photos of the stolen car can be seen at..... http://www.doretti.com/StolenPage.html on 6/27/08 1:08 PM, Tom Householder at trhouse at greenapple.com wrote: The engine was performanced out in the past few years . Had an alloy valvecover etc. Photos are available if interested . tom on 6/27/08 12:54 PM, Steven Benford Jr at sbracing at sbcglobal.net wrote: From tony at tonydrews.com Mon Jun 30 17:48:15 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:48:15 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty- law.com> References: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Message-ID: <20080630234805.1D1DC187681@autox.team.net> I routinely run 1400 degrees both front and rear in my TR-4 with correct probe placement. I used to run higher than that due to not enough spark advance. Front and rear should be close to each other, though. In the TR-4 it's more the water temp that causes valves to stick in the head and hit the piston and drop the little head off of the valve. - Tony At 10:26 AM 6/30/2008, Barr, Scott wrote: >Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures >are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching >1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > >Scott >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as tony at tonydrews.com From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 19:18:16 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:18:16 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen FOT shirts/caps- Calling for all orders! Message-ID: <011701c8db18$575e6040$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> We've had a good response so far. If orders correlate to attendance, about 40 of you are planning on attending. Ted tells me that the Glen only honors marques about every ten years, so this is your best chance to come to the Glen and/or get a shirt or hat commemorating it for another decade! I am going to try to wrap this up over the next week so that Ted can get this stuff manufactured in plenty of time before summer is seriously upon us. We expect to order few, if any, extras, so if you do not order up front there may not be another chance. For anyone who missed the first email, here it is again: we're going to offer three clothing items- a long sleeve denim shirt with a Triumph shield/laurel/Kastner Cup logo embroidered on the left front Baseball cap (blue or khaki) with the same logo Printed tee shirt with a terrific all Triumph race graphic designed by Greg Petrolati on the back, and the five color Amici Triumphi FOT logo you are all familiar with and the words Kastner Cup 2008 below it, on the left front. This will be in color, although it is shown in black and white on the link below Go to the link below and click on the words "photo album", then click on the images a couple of times to see them screen size - the embroidered logos, the shirt and cap and the tee shirt design. At this point, I need you to tell me how many of each of these you want and the size. Just send me an email. We need all orders by July 1. Ted Shumacher is graciously offering to handle credit card processing and will bring all the items to the Glen for pre-paid pick-up. If you do not plan to be at the Glen, shipping is extra. Once we have orders, Ted and I will figure out how to collect credit card info, checks, etc and get back to you once we have the orders. Long Sleeve button down denim shirts in blue or khaki, button down collar, breast pocket, embroidery above pocket. S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $30 +1 for every X above XL. An XL is a 17 neck size, 37" sleeve, so these are good sized shirts Baseball caps - hgh quality Adams cap, one size fits all, khaki color, $16 Tee shirts, light gray background, S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $19, plus $1 for every X above XL http://www.freewebs.com/sjanzen/index.htm From srcypher at mac.com Mon Jun 30 21:28:13 2008 From: srcypher at mac.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:28:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ In-Reply-To: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> References: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> Message-ID: It appears he just raised prices, too; used to be < $80 or so for the spit scraper, now its $120 on ebay... Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher 1971 Spit MkIV/1500 RaceCar 1971 TR6 TBD 1976 TR7 Street 1968 GT6 Vintage "I'm so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. Its the excitement only a free man can feel. A free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain" On Jun 30, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Jerry Barr wrote: I hope you have better luck with them than I have. I ordered two complete scrapers with the teflon inserts in early April. I paid for them by credit card and have never received them. I called in early June and they told me they would be shipped within the week, I still haven't received them. Jerry Barr On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:08 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 30 18:55:40 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:55:40 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629222524.FURE7689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <001d01c8db15$2f0f09d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> We do get a little carried away with the metaphysics of running these little cars around, sometimes. (In other words, sometimes they run and sometimes they don't.) Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Herrera" To: "Randall" Cc: "'Friends of Triumph'" Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > > > The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street > > car driven > over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, > > but if you drag raced > that car against another the lack of a > > fan would be horsepower to the > good.> > In addition, hopefully the electric fan runs only when needed; which > should> generally only be at lower speeds. In day-to-day driving, mine comes > on> only when I'm stuck in traffic, or just got off the freeway. The actual> > duty cycle is quite low.> > Randall > > Thanks, guys. > > I wasn't thinking about the periods when the electric fan was off. Only the > physics of it. Duh! > > John H. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 08:38:16 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:38:16 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Amici, In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this is going to be accomplished. What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Aaron Johnson #87 HP Spitfire 1500 Southern Illinois Region SCCA From REK46 at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:01:01 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:01:01 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:07:22 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:07:22 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 10:55:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fpspitfire at comcast.net writes: What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Depending on how far gone your car is, you could probably get it back to vintage spec. You would need new sheet metal of course. You motor and gbx should be OK. Jack Woehrle SVRA Technical Director **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of TR-Spitfire-08.pdf] From trmarty at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:08:09 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:08:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Paging Joe Curry Message-ID: Joe you out there? Drop me an email if you can. Email address I had found for you is getting bounced back. Thanks, Marty Sukey trmarty at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the im Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount From emanteno at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 09:14:38 2008 From: emanteno at comcast.net (emanteno at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:14:38 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060120081514.1796.4842BCDE000BC79A000007042207021633970A9D010507@comcast.net> You can run with Midwestern Council. Go to their website for more details. They run Blackhawk, Road America, and I think Gingerman and Autobahn. http://www.mcscc.org/ Irv -------------- Original message -------------- From: fpspitfire at comcast.net > Amici, > > In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises > many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is > coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F > production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this > is going to be accomplished. > > What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be > competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take > either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. > > What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car > running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... > > I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. > > Aaron Johnson > #87 HP Spitfire 1500 > Southern Illinois Region SCCA > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as emanteno at comcast.net From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 1 09:32:56 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:32:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> References: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000101c8c3fc$c3bcbbc0$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Ever since the current president took over SCCA has ceased to be a club and has become a business. Like all businesses, it is all about the bottom line. Eliminating classes is one way to minimize expenses. For what it's worth, I dropped my SCCA membership about 3 years ago for the same reason. The Solo classes were also being compressed, making it impossible for certain cars (including mine) to be anywhere near competitive. Cheers, Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of fpspitfire at comcast.net Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:38 AM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Amici, In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this is going to be accomplished. What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Aaron Johnson #87 HP Spitfire 1500 Southern Illinois Region SCCA Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:43:17 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:43:17 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, REK46 at aol.com writes: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 10:07:51 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:07:51 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 12:01:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JWoesvra at aol.com writes: Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for newer spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle I might add that at Watkins Glen this year when we feature Triumph, we WILL accept certain current spec Triumphs, just as we are doing for Sprite in a few weeks at Mid-Ohio. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From garygret at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 1 10:11:08 2008 From: garygret at sbcglobal.net (Gary Schneider) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <433988.99112.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Midwestern Council still has all the old Prod and GT groups, as well as the orphaned Spec Renaults which sometimes turn out a half-dozen cars. Rules are on the website and practically identical to SCCA. SCCA licenses are accepted since there is a lot of cross-over. There's also a vintage group at each race which runs all VH classes together, but rarely has more than 15 cars so there's a lot of room on the track. George Br. unfortunately took away our standing RA date this year, but BFR is the home track, Autobahn has a couple events and probably we'll go back to Milwaukee next year when they sort themselves out. Also an all volunteer group, so most race days are only $200-240 with a discount for running a second race group. Regards, Gary Schneider 37 EP TR-4 MC steward ----- Original Message ---- From: "emanteno at comcast.net" To: fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:14:38 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? You can run with Midwestern Council. Go to their website for more details. They run Blackhawk, Road America, and I think Gingerman and Autobahn. http://www.mcscc.org/ Irv -------------- Original message -------------- From: fpspitfire at comcast.net > Amici, > > In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises > many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is > coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F > production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this > is going to be accomplished. > > What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be > competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take > either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. > > What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car > running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... > > I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. > > Aaron Johnson > #87 HP Spitfire 1500 > Southern Illinois Region SCCA > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as emanteno at comcast.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as garygret at sbcglobal.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 13:24:33 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <265320.30020.qm@web53503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage groups? I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive against cars of similar displacement. I would not think that it would be impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is that something that could be possible? I know there are a good number of cars sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can enjoy racing with them. I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit current spec cars, anyone know if this is true? Or VRG? Aaron, maybe NASA will take us... !?! Of course all of this will be after the 2009 Runoffs..... ;) ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 11:43:17 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, REK46 at aol.com writes: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaxonracing at yahoo.com From ablake2 at austin.rr.com Sun Jun 1 14:59:37 2008 From: ablake2 at austin.rr.com (Greg & Alison Blake) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:59:37 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <182567.58610.qm@web58511.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 14:09:48 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:09:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage groups? >> Sort of but not exactly. However, in Vintage there are time lines and everyone that is here had to backdate to get in. We expect you guys to do the same and you are welcome. You just can't bring your current package. That wouldn't be right, now would it? We have simple and consistent rules that you must accept to play in our arena. I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive against cars of similar displacement. >> Apparently there aren't enough of you left to make that work for SCCA. I know that they have too many under subscribed classes. Run the numbers...what else can they do? As it is you get 2 ~ 15 minute sessions and a 30 minute race. At a typical vintage event you can get an hour a day and also run an enduro. I would not think that it would be impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is that something that could be possible? >> No. We don't have a shortage of complying cars. We are not dying on the vine. We are growing. We also have new "vintage" cars but they were built in the last 10-20 years. We don't want current spec 50 year old cars. That is why our name starts with a V (Vintage). I know there are a good number of cars sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can enjoy racing with them.>> I agree. Read our rules and do what all of our guys have done. If it was easy, you might already be here. It certainly must be easier than following that long trail of lollypops you guys have been following with SCCA. Well, the candyman just ran out of suckers. Did you leave a trail of corn to find your way back? I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit current spec cars, anyone know if this is true?>> HSR is not a vintage organization and they might actually have a place for you. Or VRG? >> Not a chance! This is a little tongue in cheek so no need to flame me back. We really will welcome you guys, but you will obviously have to make the changes. I would think it would be less than you guys spend on shocks and motors though. Jack Woehrle SVRA Technical Director **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From whimsey1 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 1 14:29:47 2008 From: whimsey1 at earthlink.net (jimdonick) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Friends: I'm not terribly close to it, being mostly a Vintage Guy, but I do know there were some issues at the runoffs last year between SCCA and Mazda. That led to some gossip that it would likely help NASA. I joined NASA last year and ran a National in Phoenix and the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. (Both in a Miata, I blush to admit) NASA is an up and comer with a growing National Organization. They are not as sophisticated in all regions yet as is SCCA but I can attest that the 25 Hours was a well run an event as I've ever taken part in. (It was also the adventure of a lifetime but that's a different story.) IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing with us here in the VSCCA. best to all jimdonick -----Original Message----- >From: Jay Creel >Sent: Jun 1, 2008 3:24 PM >To: JWoesvra at aol.com, REK46 at aol.com, fpspitfire at comcast.net, fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > >Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first >place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage >groups? >I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot >invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive >against cars of similar displacement. I would not think that it would be >impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car >of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that >way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be >affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is >that something that could be possible? I know there are a good number of cars >sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of >some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can >enjoy racing with them. >I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit >current spec cars, anyone know if this is true? Or VRG? >Aaron, maybe NASA >will take us... !?! >Of course all of this will be after the 2009 Runoffs..... >;) > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" >To: REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Sunday, >June 1, 2008 11:43:17 AM >Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > >In a >message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >REK46 at aol.com >writes: > >If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to >develop >a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit >cars....in a > >few years SCCA will be all Miata. > > >Are you sayin' we ain't >smart? > >Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just >not a >place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small >displacement >production cars. > >We aren't a parachute for current spec >drivers and cars who have been >squeezed out to float into without making >some changes. > >You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't >changin' just >for you. > >Jack Woehrle > > > >**************Get trade secrets for >amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as >jaxonracing at yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as whimsey1 at earthlink.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 15:51:55 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:51:55 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, Not to beat a dead horse, but "that's racin'". You do what the MAN says or you put it away. When you ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and takes your chances. What do they say about big dogs and porches? Never changes. Just the faces change. Jack Woehrle...since 1963! **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 16:22:48 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> hmm. you must be made of money. I didn't build my car to have it collect dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, sounds no different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules changed. I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because you are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. "that's racing" is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. Doesn't look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the input, I am sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. A simple NO, your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go about our day. Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the reference to "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. I am done with this. Thanks ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, Not to beat a dead horse, but "that's racin'". You do what the MAN says or you put it away. When you ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and takes your chances. What do they say about big dogs and porches? Never changes. Just the faces change. Jack Woehrle...since 1963! ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 16:32:28 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:32:28 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 6:23:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because you are the MAN The point is,our rules DON'T change! The MAN is not me...the MAN is your organization. Your MAN change YOUR rules. My rules don't change. Vintage is by definition, locked in time. I'm sorry to have to make it so blunt. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 17:05:37 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:05:37 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA refugees can race. The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to slide into the 70's, it kills it. Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a fun group. The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: > hmm. you must be made of money. > I didn't build my car to have it collect > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, > sounds no > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules > changed. I > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > because you > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. > "that's racing" > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > Doesn't > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the > input, I am > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > A simple NO, > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go > about our > day. > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the > reference to > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > I am done with this. Thanks > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > To: > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] > alternatives to the SCCA? > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > because of rules issues in the > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > Not to beat a dead horse, > but "that's racin'". > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > When you > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money > and takes > your chances. > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > Never changes. > Just the faces change. > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > ________________________________ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 17:26:36 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:26:36 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2008, at 4:05 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. > I've organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in > the inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage > racers--are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and > slicks came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had > lots of ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already > changed a great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often > anymore--they are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their > owners to have them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a > corner VS. their couple of million. Vintage organizations are > getting tougher on their rules, not easier. And it's for good > reason. I argued the other side long and hard--and I was wrong. It > doesn't help vintage racing to slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate > out front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored > against them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage > cars at home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and > money in it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit > these cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast > amounts of money being made in running club events that include > obsolete or low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team > Continental and the ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of > course you're on the track with some of the most misbegotten iron > you ever saw, but it's a fun group. > > The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people > complaining about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. > > On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 17:29:20 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Message-ID: <141634.77484.qm@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg: Please feel free to call me; I currently maintain this car for it's owner. I can give you all the in's and out's to it. Thanks- Ed Barnard Greg & Alison Blake wrote: Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 17:32:23 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Message-ID: <394648.58607.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg: Forgot to give you my number. 817-516-0899 (hm) 817-939-4419 (cell) -Ed- Greg & Alison Blake wrote: Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From rkramer3 at austin.rr.com Sun Jun 1 17:58:22 2008 From: rkramer3 at austin.rr.com (BOB KRAMER) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: <006b01c8c443$602a7fb0$0264a8c0@DadsComputer> Jack is right. Vintage rules are stuck in time and that is what make it great. Having said that there are some worries that vintage race organizations will suffer membership losses over time as the racer population ages. If NASA or some other yet to be formed post-historic race organizer puts together races for mid 70's and later cars we may lose racers. From the Triumph crowd there could be a great interest in racing later model Spitfires, TR6's and TR7's. Put them on the track with Celica's, early RX7's etc. and you would have a pretty interesting crowd. Bob Kramer rkramer3 at austin.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > In a message dated 6/1/2008 6:23:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > because > you are the MAN > > > The point is,our rules DON'T change! > > The MAN is not me...the MAN is your organization. Your MAN change YOUR > rules. > > My rules don't change. Vintage is by definition, locked in time. > > I'm sorry to have to make it so blunt. > > jw > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer3 at austin.rr.com From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:06:47 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:06:47 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 7:58:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkramer3 at austin.rr.com writes: >From the Triumph crowd there could be a great interest in racing later model Spitfires, TR6's and TR7's. Put them on the track with Celica's, early RX7's etc. and you would have a pretty interesting crowd. We actually accept all of those now. However, they have to be prepared to our standards which are reasonable, I think. The "period" is middle 70's. (Group 8). Prep level similar to SCCA Improved Touring. We just don't want fiberglass fenders, slicks, wide flares and black rubber air dams. Let those cars migrate to NASA which seems to have a great program. And...if anyone thinks I am to blunt...thanks for the compliment. And thanks to you guys who have supported what I have said...perhaps with more sensitivity. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:15:01 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:15:01 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 7:58:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkramer3 at austin.rr.com writes: there are some worries that vintage race organizations will suffer membership losses over time as the racer population ages. If NASA or some other yet to be formed post-historic race organizer puts together races for mid 70's and later cars we may lose racers. I think NASA serves a vital function in relieving the pressure on Vintage organizations to cave in. I doubt if anyone now Vintage Racing will migrate to NASA. It will be the other way if anything. The same caution came up when VDCA and later VRG started up. The powers to be looked at this as a threat. I said just wait and see. These organizations have stepped in and put on the races we couldn't or didn't want to do. They have been a windfall for us as we are not really an "entry level" organization. They provide certain benefits that we cannot and it has worked out very well. In short, if an organization puts on events that the core group of racers can relate to, that organization will prosper. Stable and sensible rules are vital to that concept. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From dave at microworks.net Sun Jun 1 18:27:53 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:27:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alfin Drums Message-ID: <20080602002705.HLFS23549.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> From one of the Local (Phoenix) Club members >From: "Craig" >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:42:10 GMT >To: dave at microworks.net > >Hello, >I am searching for a source for AFIN not ALFIN TR6 brake >drums. The drums have 4-5 fins that are ring shaped that run on the >outside of the drum. See attached photo. >Here are some UK websites with the drums but the exchange rate...... > >http://www.racemettleltd.co.uk/drum.html >http://www.racetorations.co.uk/catbrake.html >http://www.brakedrum.co.uk/ > >So does anyone know where I can procure 2 of these? >Craig Kenyon >____________________________________________________________ From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 18:30:08 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:30:08 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> Message-ID: No question, the point is that the guys who own the megabuck cars are keeping them in the garage, and that's sad. It doesn't make sense to change rules to make that even worse so that guys with good TR3's will have good reason not to race. The damage issue is a big deal with the handling difference of these cars, and it's the same thing a guy in a 59 Testarossa with it's limited brakes and skinny tires feels when Peyote stuffs inside him by outbraking him. I feel bad about that, and it would be nice to find a solution, but vintage racing really has already changed. Hard to un- ring that bell, but let's not find another to start banging on. I intentionally left the Mitty, off the all aluminum Tour last year, because racing with 70's cars with aero and slicks isn't that much fun. The carnage in my group the year I ran in it was astonishing-- worse than a SCCA race. I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore when they announced at the drivers meeting that cars with duct tape repairs had to have permanent repairs before the next event. Hmmm, what happened to suspensions for contact and the 13/13 rule. I have no problem remembering my first vintage race--I wandered into it by accident at PIR. GT40's, Testarossas, T70, 917, 908's, scarabs, tipo 61's, and all kinds of other great cars. These days you only see them at the Monterey Historics and big races like that. On Jun 1, 2008, at 5:07 PM, WILLIAM TOBIN wrote: > Hey Bill, maybe my $20k car is worth more to me than the $1M car is > to its > owner. We're all not rich out there; I've encountered a bunch of > Average > Joes out there who are great people. > Good point, though. > Thanks, Bill Tobin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Babcock" > To: "Jay Creel" > Cc: ; > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > >> Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. >> I've >> organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the >> inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good >> reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the >> requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA >> refugees can race. >> >> The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage >> racers-- >> are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks >> came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of >> ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a >> great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they >> are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have >> them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their >> couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their >> rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side >> long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to >> slide into the 70's, it kills it. >> >> Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out >> front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against >> them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at >> home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in >> it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these >> cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts >> of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or >> low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the >> ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the >> track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a >> fun group. >> >> The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining >> about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. >> >> On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: From S.Janzen at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 18:50:19 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:50:19 -0400 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c8c44a$a22ea8d0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> I look at this as a healthy exchange of viewpoints, and clearly there are different ones. I suspect if there are enough cars there is a class somewhere that you can run them. I do agree that the line needs to be drawn for Vintage, because it is a museum show and a race at the same time - if you look at the stuff that shows up at an SVRA event, you will know that Jack is pretty accomodating. Some of those Shelby Mustangs could never snick through the gears that quickly back in the day. Race cars do become obsolete. We just weren't around or foresighted enough to buy a $5,000 Maserati Birdcage, or the C- type Jag an old acquaintance of mine sold in the mid-seventies for less than $4,000. I don't think politics as much as supply and demand put the cars to pasture. Change is inevitable - no one kept the rules the same at Indy or F1. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Creel" To: ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > hmm. you must be made of money. > I didn't build my car to have it collect > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, sounds > no > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules changed. I > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because > you > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. "that's > racing" > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > Doesn't > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the input, I am > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > A simple NO, > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go about > our > day. > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the reference to > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > I am done with this. Thanks > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > To: > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] > alternatives to the SCCA? > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > because of rules issues in the > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > Not to beat a dead horse, > but "that's racin'". > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > When you > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and > takes > your chances. > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > Never changes. > Just the faces change. > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > ________________________________ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net From rocky at spitfire4.com Sun Jun 1 18:58:47 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:58:47 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> If "Vintage means vintage" translates to "nothing later than 1972 (or whenever) can run, ever," then there's a basic problem with that, as hinted below by the phrase "The grand old cars don't show up as often any more." I am in charge of the voting for the hall of fame of an organization of professional motorsports journalists. We discovered some time ago that our original division of pre-war and post-war (meaning WW II) had a problem. No problem when we started doing this in the '70s when pre-war was basically 1890-1940, a 50-year span, while post-war was 1945-1970, a 25-year span. So far, so good. But by the time we got to the '90s, we discovered the potential pre-war candidates were a finite group, and we'd elected most of the really good ones. While the post-war candidates were an ever-growing group now comprising nearly 50-years worth of drivers. The solution? We abandoned pre-war and post-war and defined the categories as "historic" and "modern" with the cutoff being 30 years ago. This meant that the cutoff moved forward every year, so today a star from 1978 is "historic era." and the historic era becomes infused with new candidates each year just as the modern era is. (The idea for this pattern actually comes from how the Baseball Hall does it, when a player transitions to being an "old timer"). So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? Especially since the idea behind vintage -- purportedly -- isn't about winning but just about putting the grand old cars on the track again? --Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Jay Creel" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've > organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the > inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- > are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks > came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of > ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a > great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they > are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have > them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their > couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their > rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side > long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to > slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out > front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against > them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at > home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in > it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these > cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts > of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or > low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the > ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the > track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a > fun group. From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 19:08:49 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:08:49 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? Surprise, it is! SVRA takes cars as late as 1998 (10 years from new) in certain groups if they are real race cars, prepared as they raced in their "period". If you have a 1988 whatever, and it is race prepared to that period, fine. What we don't want is 50 year old cars prepared to 2008 standards. We have no place for them. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 1 20:47:21 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:47:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901c8c45a$faf4ff40$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Since I don't race in the vintage events, I don't have a dog in the hunt but that gives me a different perspective looking in from the outside. I have for a long time been seeing exchanges concerning the various sanctioning bodies having different specs for the cars and because of that it is difficult to build a car that will fit in to all the groups. Maybe it is time that someone step up to the plate and figure out how to unite the various groups under a single governing body. It won't be easy since it will ultimately mean that some if not all cars will have to change to fit into the new rules, so a lot of negotiating will have to be done to accomplish the task. At the same time, it would be a good opportunity to address this new issue of bringing in additional classes that are being squeezed out of the SCCA. Just a thought! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:09 PM To: rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 21:55:26 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 03:55:26 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060220080355.7533.48436F2D000C8C4B00001D6D22120207840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> I didn't start this conversation to bring out a war. I don't vintage race because I want to race for the competition. If I go the vintage race route I'll just do lapping days with the local BMW club with my car exactly as it is. While I appreciate the arguments against vintage groups trying to find a place for SCCA cars that are being displaced to run, I think it's pretty short sighted to rule it out. What I have is a car that is too far gone to go back to a more "stock" form. I wouldn't want to. Driving the car on slicks is amazing. Driving for me isn't about how much track time in a weekend. I like a 20 minute practise session, 25 minute qualifying and 45 minute race. It looks like there are few options, but I will check out Midwest Council. aaron -------------- Original message -------------- From: JWoesvra at aol.com > In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rocky at spitfire4.com writes: > > So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then > why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? > > > > Surprise, it is! > > SVRA takes cars as late as 1998 (10 years from new) in certain groups if > they are real race cars, prepared as they raced in their "period". If you have a > 1988 whatever, and it is race prepared to that period, fine. > > What we don't want is 50 year old cars prepared to 2008 standards. We have > no place for them. > > Jack > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as fpspitfire at comcast.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 22:17:07 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <144821.52621.qm@web53510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Does that seem like it would ever be possible? (universal rule set) I consider myself an outsider as well, as I have never run vintage. I am not a fan of contact nor have I ever initiated it but I do like close door to door racing. So if anyone knows of an organization that would be interested in allowing current spec cars that may be orphaned by the SCCA, let me know. JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? ----- Original Message ---- From: Joe Curry To: JWoesvra at aol.com; rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:47:21 PM Subject: RE: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Since I don't race in the vintage events, I don't have a dog in the hunt but that gives me a different perspective looking in from the outside. I have for a long time been seeing exchanges concerning the various sanctioning bodies having different specs for the cars and because of that it is difficult to build a car that will fit in to all the groups. Maybe it is time that someone step up to the plate and figure out how to unite the various groups under a single governing body. It won't be easy since it will ultimately mean that some if not all cars will have to change to fit into the new rules, so a lot of negotiating will have to be done to accomplish the task. At the same time, it would be a good opportunity to address this new issue of bringing in additional classes that are being squeezed out of the SCCA. Just a thought! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:09 PM To: rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? From william.tobin3 at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 18:07:41 2008 From: william.tobin3 at verizon.net (WILLIAM TOBIN) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:07:41 -0400 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> Hey Bill, maybe my $20k car is worth more to me than the $1M car is to its owner. We're all not rich out there; I've encountered a bunch of Average Joes out there who are great people. Good point, though. Thanks, Bill Tobin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Jay Creel" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've > organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the > inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- > are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks > came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of > ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a > great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they > are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have > them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their > couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their > rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side > long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to > slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out > front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against > them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at > home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in > it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these > cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts > of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or > low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the > ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the > track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a > fun group. > > The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining > about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. > > On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: > > > hmm. you must be made of money. > > I didn't build my car to have it collect > > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, > > sounds no > > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules > > changed. I > > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > > because you > > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. > > "that's racing" > > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > > Doesn't > > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the > > input, I am > > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > > A simple NO, > > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go > > about our > > day. > > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the > > reference to > > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > > I am done with this. Thanks > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > > To: > > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > > fot at autox.team.net > > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Fot] > > alternatives to the SCCA? > > > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > because of rules issues in the > > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > > Not to beat a dead horse, > > but "that's racin'". > > > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > > > When you > > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money > > and takes > > your chances. > > > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > > > Never changes. > > Just the faces change. > > > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Babcock & Jenkins > Billb at bnj.com > 503.936.7660 > www.bnj.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as william.tobin3 at verizon.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 00:29:12 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:29:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Message-ID: <6E762951-B989-4882-A9C4-C024422E1931@bnj.com> I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden age and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the 20 year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has white hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy in an old car. On Jun 1, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Rocky Entriken wrote: > If "Vintage means vintage" translates to "nothing later than 1972 > (or whenever) can run, ever," then there's a basic problem with > that, as hinted below by the phrase "The grand old cars don't show > up as often any more." > > I am in charge of the voting for the hall of fame of an organization > of professional motorsports journalists. We discovered some time ago > that our original division of pre-war and post-war (meaning WW II) > had a problem. No problem when we started doing this in the '70s > when pre-war was basically 1890-1940, a 50-year span, while post-war > was 1945-1970, a 25-year span. So far, so good. > > But by the time we got to the '90s, we discovered the potential pre- > war candidates were a finite group, and we'd elected most of the > really good ones. While the post-war candidates were an ever-growing > group now comprising nearly 50-years worth of drivers. > > The solution? We abandoned pre-war and post-war and defined the > categories as "historic" and "modern" with the cutoff being 30 years > ago. This meant that the cutoff moved forward every year, so today a > star from 1978 is "historic era." and the historic era becomes > infused with new candidates each year just as the modern era is. > (The idea for this pattern actually comes from how the Baseball Hall > does it, when a player transitions to being an "old timer"). > > So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was > vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to > 1983 specs -- vintage? > > Especially since the idea behind vintage -- purportedly -- isn't > about winning but just about putting the grand old cars on the track > again? > > --Rocky Entriken > > -- From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 06:42:21 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:42:21 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from New Zeland and the UK. Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any paint though! Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 2 08:50:34 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, jimdonick wrote: [stuff deleted] > IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the > production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA > organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could > very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty > and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing > with us here in the VSCCA. ... meanwhile, NASCAR and the close relatives lick thier chops... The problem with the production car classes in SCCA is that the numbers are down. Why is that? I have no idea. But it's probably because there's a limited number of participants all trying to compete in expanding classes. Spec this and Spec that are one factor. But if they can get 40+ SM cars at the runoffs and barely get 20 HP cars (and then a couple don't even take the green at the race!), there's something wrong with the weaker class. So, you get two options - talk or walk. Walking is easy. Talking is a lot harder because you wind up trying to placate folks that are competitive and know what they want. You make a new rule set and you wind up being the bad guy if that new set doesn't align with the competitive guy's vision. And if that person is a leader (highly likely) they can rallye folks behind them (for example: XXXX org is full of idiots or whatever). Is there an easy solution? NO. Absolutely NO. Is forming a new organiztion the right thing to do? I'm not so sure. Of the folks that I've talked to that do the NASA thing (for example), 100% of them also run SCCA. How is DIVIDING the same people between two organiztions a good thing? Same thing goes for classes. If there's 100 active Sports Racers nationally, how is adding a Spec sports racer to the mix going to help? Does everyone chuck thier car and start over? NO. But this is a Triumphs list. We should talk about Triumphs. Where we play with them is up to us individually. Period, the end. > best to all > jimdonick Regards, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 09:24:58 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:24:58 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Hillclimb and Autocross project car for sale $750 Message-ID: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Sorry to bomb the list, but for anyone who is interested, here's the link to a GT6 $750 project - not worth listing on ebay given what they charge for cars these days! Car is near Philadelphia. http://www.freewebs.com/sdjanzen/ From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 09:41:25 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:41:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01BD36CD-30F7-47D6-B347-A00739BCF555@bnj.com> Shit does indeed happen, and I'm still down in my shop every day, fixing the result. Paint does get swapped, but it's only one way. I always smile at people who think vintage racing isn't racing. I've done just about every form of racing I can think of, and they're all the same--at least they are the same for me. It's just the ramifications of the screw ups that change. On Jun 2, 2008, at 5:42 AM, JWoesvra at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com > writes: > JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec > cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... > Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? > Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good > number of cars to participate? > Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. > > When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like > to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an > all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph > racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event > like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. > > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where > they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 > Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. > > In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from > New Zeland and the UK. > > Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive > and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car > polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. > You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. > However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any > paint though! > > Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars > that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have > folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good > car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. > > Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec > drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. > > This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and > truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. > > Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 09:53:48 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:53:48 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <133B474B-2BF9-4D91-AD98-0F69F1A031E6@bnj.com> Shit does indeed happen, and I'm still down in my shop every day, fixing the result. Paint does get swapped, but it's only one way. I always smile at people who think vintage racing isn't racing. I've done just about every form of racing I can think of, and they're all the same--at least they are the same for me. It's just the ramifications of the screw ups that change. On Jun 2, 2008, at 5:42 AM, JWoesvra at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com > writes: > JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec > cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... > Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? > Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good > number of cars to participate? > Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. > > When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like > to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an > all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph > racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event > like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. > > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where > they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 > Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. > > In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from > New Zeland and the UK. > > Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive > and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car > polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. > You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. > However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any > paint though! > > Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars > that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have > folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good > car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. > > Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec > drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. > > This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and > truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. > > Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:09:20 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:09:20 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 06/01/2008 2:49:41 PM Central Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first > place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage > groups? > To some degree, but particularly with older vintage groups like the VSCCA out east they were ALWAYS vintage even before SCCA fell out of favor with some racers. The older vintage groups were made up mostly of 'collectors' who had old race cars (many historically significant) who wanted to do more with them than polish them. They wanted an opportunity to drive them at speed. But as we all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. It wasn't long before vintage events became less a high speed parade and more a race. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spreiss at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 19:08:54 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:08:54 +1100 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get the blood pumping. Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? Steve P. spreiss at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Lang" To: "jimdonick" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, jimdonick wrote: > > [stuff deleted] > > > IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the > > production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA > > organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could > > very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty > > and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing > > with us here in the VSCCA. > > ... meanwhile, NASCAR and the close relatives lick thier chops... > > The problem with the production car classes in SCCA is that the numbers > are down. Why is that? I have no idea. But it's probably because there's a > limited number of participants all trying to compete in expanding classes. > Spec this and Spec that are one factor. But if they can get 40+ SM cars at > the runoffs and barely get 20 HP cars (and then a couple don't even take > the green at the race!), there's something wrong with the weaker class. > > So, you get two options - talk or walk. Walking is easy. Talking is a lot > harder because you wind up trying to placate folks that are competitive > and know what they want. You make a new rule set and you wind up being the > bad guy if that new set doesn't align with the competitive guy's vision. > And if that person is a leader (highly likely) they can rallye folks > behind them (for example: XXXX org is full of idiots or whatever). > > Is there an easy solution? NO. Absolutely NO. Is forming a new organiztion > the right thing to do? I'm not so sure. Of the folks that I've talked to > that do the NASA thing (for example), 100% of them also run SCCA. How is > DIVIDING the same people between two organiztions a good thing? Same thing > goes for classes. If there's 100 active Sports Racers nationally, how is > adding a Spec sports racer to the mix going to help? Does everyone chuck > thier car and start over? NO. > > But this is a Triumphs list. We should talk about Triumphs. Where we play > with them is up to us individually. Period, the end. > > > best to all > > jimdonick > > Regards, > rml > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent > Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! > Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From spreiss at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 19:11:38 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:11:38 +1100 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: <003e01c8c44d$9c65c3e0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > In a message dated 06/01/2008 2:49:41 PM Central Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > > > Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first > > place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage > > groups? > > > > To some degree, but particularly with older vintage groups like the VSCCA out > east they were ALWAYS vintage even before SCCA fell out of favor with some > racers. The older vintage groups were made up mostly of 'collectors' who had > old race cars (many historically significant) who wanted to do more with them > than polish them. They wanted an opportunity to drive them at speed. But as we > all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. It wasn't long > before vintage events became less a high speed parade and more a race. > > Bill Dentinger Boys will be boys. S.P. > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& > ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 2 10:23:45 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:23:45 -0500 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 Message-ID: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> A few weeks ago I asked for advice regarding replacing the pinion seal on my street TR6. Comments were that Viton would have a longer life when subjected to the additives in differential lube. I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment type made from so,e sort of felt. Before I wrestle this thing back together, has anyone on the list actually found a Viton seal for this application? Or, has someone recently ordered a seal of modern construction from one of the aftermarket companies? uncle jack From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:25:00 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:25:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:09:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BillDentin at aol.com writes: But as we all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. Put what where? jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From sgroh1 at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 10:33:03 2008 From: sgroh1 at comcast.net (Steven Groh) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:33:03 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Groh" To: "Steven Groh" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:28 PM Subject: Fw: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Groh" > To: "Robert Lang" ; "jimdonick" > > Cc: > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > >>I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller classes >>at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda subsidization. Times >>have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't change. >>And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, my dad >>was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, the >>Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula Fords, >>graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the writing >>on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down to a >>not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec conversion so I >>could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to SCCA, >>or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right one. I >>chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I built >>my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but to me, it >>was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a family >>event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a blessing >>that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a family. >>Some things you just can't put a price on. >> >> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA isn't one >> of them in my humble opinion. >> >> Steve Groh >> 63 Spitfire >> SVRA 393 >> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> >>> Fot mailing list >>> Fot at autox.team.net >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >>> >>> You are subscribed as sgroh1 at comcast.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 10:34:33 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:34:33 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA?-----now TRs at Watkins Glen Message-ID: FOT, I hope everyone picked up on Jack's forecast on the possible entries at The Glen. About 90 days away..... Joe Alexander ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where they > can > run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 Alfas and 150 MG's > > a few years ago. Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. JW ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------- From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:38:21 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:38:21 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:33:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sgroh1 at comcast.net writes: >> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA isn't one >> of them in my humble opinion. Thanks Steve.....looking forward to Mid-Ohio. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 10:58:08 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:58:08 EDT Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 Message-ID: Jack, One time I could only find a single lip seal. The seal housing was sized so I could put two single lip seals in tandem.....Two Chicago Rawhides in tandem might do it. JoeAlexander > I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, > Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a > 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago > Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I > installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment > type made from so,e sort of felt. > From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 10:59:22 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:59:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> Message-ID: <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> Yes and no. I think SCCA has become business-like, and that's nothing but good IMNSHO. As far as supersession is concerned, that's driven by US not them. When I bought my Radical and went DSR racing it was the hot ticket. Within a month there were five of them to compete against in the Northwest, and if you didn't have a Radical in DSR the best you could hope for was fifth--unless a Radical broke or didn't show. I won the Northwest championship in 2003. DSR was suddenly a hot class and people started paying attention to it. The Stohr hit the track. A guy who was lucky to get third in his Radical bought one and took three seconds off my best PIR time-- 1:17:something. Hot shoes in Stohr DSRs can do under 1:10, which is Formula Atlantic territory and mid-pack for the CART racers. I like wings and slicks racing, but not as much as racing Peyote. I damned sure wasn't going to circulate behind a pack of Stohrs, and I didn't care to spend 60K every two years in a "budget" race class so I sold my Radical and concentrated on Vintage. Lost the requisite $20K -- hmmm, more like 30. So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider them too dumb to live. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Steven Groh wrote: >> >>> I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller >>> classes >>> at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>> infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda >>> subsidization. Times >>> have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't >>> change. >>> And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, >>> my dad >>> was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, >>> the >>> Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula >>> Fords, >>> graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the >>> writing >>> on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down >>> to a >>> not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec >>> conversion so I >>> could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to >>> SCCA, >>> or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>> decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right >>> one. I >>> chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>> driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I >>> built >>> my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>> couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but >>> to me, it >>> was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a >>> family >>> event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a >>> blessing >>> that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a >>> family. >>> Some things you just can't put a price on. >>> >>> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA >>> isn't one >>> of them in my humble opinion. >>> >>> Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 11:01:55 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:01:55 -0700 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98718213-A712-4B5F-A6D3-EE99BE9783FB@bnj.com> I always put in two seals. Not rawhide, just whatever narrow seal I can find. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:58 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: > Jack, > > One time I could only find a single lip seal. The seal housing was > sized so > I could put two single lip seals in tandem.....Two Chicago Rawhides > in tandem > might do it. > > JoeAlexander > > >> I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, >> Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a >> 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago >> Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I >> installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment >> type made from so,e sort of felt. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From tlizzard at msn.com Mon Jun 2 11:04:42 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:04:42 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: Gents, The SCCA has been in constant flux regarding classes since it's inception. There is nothing new here. When was the last race for B Sedan?. A Sports Racer? C Modified, or one many won't recall, Spec VW Bug? SCCA has always been about what's current, even though it may not seem so. When I first joined 36 years ago, Production cars were the bread and butter of the racing program. Why? Because there were still a lot of manufacturers selling sports cars, and selling them in good numbers as well. That is no longer the case. Without manufacturer support the SCCA would have dried up a long time ago. Just my take on it. Now, as to the cars we know and love. Can you really expect to continue development on a car that was last produced over 30 year ago? As much as I love my old proper British sports cars, it is just not realistic to be competitive against modern designs with equal prep rules. A brand new MGB (for example) street car would be beaten up one side and down the other by a new Miata street car. Why expect different from competetion prepped cars? And the Miata will be far less expensive I the long run to keep running, hence their (as well as others) ascendance in SCCA racing. I have a personal friend in a similar fix. He is a long time SCCA racer in the midwest who campaigns a Lotus Elan. New rules have effectively made the car obsolete. I keep trying to get him to cut the flairs off and go vintage racing. I know he would have a great time, but old habits die hard I guess. It's a real problem, but not one without choices. I wish all of you the best. Terry Stetler From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 2 11:11:46 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Steven Preiss wrote: > I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get > the blood pumping. Exactly. That's my "plan", as it were. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? Why yes, I do. My TR6 is basically prepared to the '72 SCCA GCR except that my "cage" ties the front and rear of the car. Everything else was done so it can be reversed to STOCK if I wanted to sell the car as a vintage car. So, I currently run glass fenders, I can remove them and install steel in about one hour and be completely legal. Wait - the bonnet takes a bit more time. Make that 3 hours, tops. FWIW, SCCA does not use the term Solo 2 anymore. It's just Solo. > Steve P. > spreiss at verizon.net regards, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gaf3 at charter.net Mon Jun 2 11:29:09 2008 From: gaf3 at charter.net (Glenn Franco) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:29:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 In-Reply-To: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <48442DE5.6020501@charter.net> Try a National 47048N Not sure if its Viton but it should last longer than the leather seals that leak immediately after refilling with gear lube. Just my 2 cents worth Glenn Franco Spit racer under construction and leaking TR's with leather pinion seals and one that's not (replaced with a rubber lip seal) Jack W. Drews wrote: > A few weeks ago I asked for advice regarding replacing the pinion > seal on my street TR6. Comments were that Viton would have a longer > life when subjected to the additives in differential lube. > > I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, > Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a > 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago > Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I > installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment > type made from so,e sort of felt. > > Before I wrestle this thing back together, has anyone on the list > actually found a Viton seal for this application? Or, has someone > recently ordered a seal of modern construction from one of the > aftermarket companies? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as gaf3 at charter.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 11:36:35 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:36:35 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Ambro 001 In-Reply-To: <011501c8b9eb$7bdd6860$3a16c548@RW> References: <88193492-4EE7-4BA9-8A67-7B7647E656EC@bnj.com> <011501c8b9eb$7bdd6860$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <53FD4D1D-EBE6-4A61-BB7E-6672DEDE3F44@bnj.com> I haven't mentioned this previously since i didn't have the car in hand, but I've purchased the Ambro 001, Peyote's little brother, from Doug Karon. It's being delivered this week. I can't wait. I will still drive Peyote most of the time, but it will be nice to have an alternative, and it's such a pretty car. Maybe I can figure out some way to turn Nero (the Airstream) into a stacker. I suspect that would REALLY be asking for the thing to break in half somewhere on a dark lonely highway. It's really a privilege to have both of Bill Ame's cars. Diane likes the fact that it has a passenger seat. She's tired of sitting on the fuel cell. . [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F2_ambro%25202%2520008.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F3_ambro%2520001.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F4_ambro%25202%2520001.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F5_ambro%25202%2520002.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F6_ambro%25202%2520004.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F7_ambro%25202%2520005.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F8_ambro%25202%2520007.jpg] From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 12:33:40 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:33:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Ambro 001 In-Reply-To: <130237.29240.qm@web81705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <130237.29240.qm@web81705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <180E1FDA-1607-4117-B5BF-2431BD8989DB@bnj.com> Peyote On Jun 2, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > Cool! > > Which one will you bring to the Glen? > > Dennis > > > Bill Babcock wrote: > I haven't mentioned this previously since i didn't have the car in > hand, but I've purchased the Ambro 001, Peyote's little brother, from > Doug Karon. It's being delivered this week. I can't wait. I will still > drive Peyote most of the time, but it will be nice to have an > alternative, and it's such a pretty car. Maybe I can figure out some > way to turn Nero (the Airstream) into a stacker. I suspect that would > REALLY be asking for the thing to break in half somewhere on a dark > lonely highway. > > It's really a privilege to have both of Bill Ame's cars. Diane likes > the fact that it has a passenger seat. She's tired of sitting on the > fuel cell. > > . > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F2_ambro%25202%2520008.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F3_ambro%2520001.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F4_ambro%25202%2520001.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F5_ambro%25202%2520002.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F6_ambro%25202%2520004.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F7_ambro%25202%2520005.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F8_ambro%25202%2520007.jpg] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as yellow-green at sbcglobal.net > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 2 13:51:30 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:51:30 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. The current ones don't look bad, but they are almost as old as I am. What's the best thing to do - put in new stock rubber ones and gamble that the rubber parts might be good for a change, or go to the new polyurethane mounts which would seem to me to be a harsher mount but which Moss says tends to prevent breakage of the frame brackets -- what's the wisdom of the list on this one? uncle jack From srcypher at mac.com Mon Jun 2 15:14:18 2008 From: srcypher at mac.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:14:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> Message-ID: <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> It comes from the inconsistency in the approach laid out, inconsistency in application of the rules. 1 strong national classes (#11) combined #22 into 1 class; 1 class (#16) kept by itself because it can't be combined with anything else, and some even question if its consistent with SCCA stated philosophy. SCCA has a pre-established method to keeping classes; overall participation in that class; once it fails to meet the thresholds set, it is considered for combination and consolidation. If SCCA hadn't demonstrated that certain classes get to stay national, despite not making the cutoff (GT3), or if SCCA was making way for a tuner class, a drifter class, or something that is clearly popular, would clearly create draw, and/or demonstrated "business saavy" to generate income, I would be hard pressed to argue theirm move Such does not appear to be the case. They are doing this why? I Quote: "In addition, opportunities for new classes such as those using biofuels and hydro- gen energy sources must be made possible for the future." I can't even begin to comment on that one. Most of the prod racers I've noticed have tended to say, if SCCA wanted 21 classes, why not just make the run-off cut-off 21 instead of 23/24 and be done with it? HP either ponies up with participation or gets trampled, that simple. I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts. Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider them too dumb to live. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Steven Groh wrote: >> >>> I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller >>> classes >>> at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>> infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda >>> subsidization. Times >>> have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't >>> change. >>> And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, >>> my dad >>> was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, >>> the >>> Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula >>> Fords, >>> graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the >>> writing >>> on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down >>> to a >>> not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec >>> conversion so I >>> could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to >>> SCCA, >>> or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>> decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right >>> one. I >>> chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>> driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I >>> built >>> my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>> couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but >>> to me, it >>> was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a >>> family >>> event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a >>> blessing >>> that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a >>> family. >>> Some things you just can't put a price on. >>> >>> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA >>> isn't one >>> of them in my humble opinion. >>> >>> Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as srcypher at mac.com From vintage.racer at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 15:35:29 2008 From: vintage.racer at comcast.net (Gary Horstkorta) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:35:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA Message-ID: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Hello: Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit into the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. I've raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by a Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if they don't already have a program like this. Gary 1962 TR4 1969 TR6 1969 Triumph Bonneville From klynch_6 at msn.com Mon Jun 2 16:01:24 2008 From: klynch_6 at msn.com (KEVIN LYNCH) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:01:24 -0600 Subject: [Fot] 13" Minilites Message-ID: Good afternoon! I was wondering if someone might have a pair of M-lites for the GT6? (3 3/4") I need to check b-space however. Thanks much, Kev Lynch From norlinengineering at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 16:29:05 2008 From: norlinengineering at comcast.net (Norlin Engineering) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:29:05 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA In-Reply-To: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000201c8c500$128224d0$020ba8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> Another option. Oregon Region has a similar alternative where Patty & I race our Spitfire. We do not have as many cars as SF Region, so we run only one or two groups, but we have a group at every regional race. There's also a North Pacific Vintage Championship consisting of two races each in SF, Oregon and NW Regions. Oregon's rules are simple, only three pages: http://www.oregonscca.com/media-library/documents/vintage/2008vintagesupps.p df It's my understanding that next year the cutoff year will go to a rolling 25 years old. You can even ask for a waiver to run slicks. This whole thing started several years ago as a way to get more entries and to get the older cars back on the track. If your SCCA region is in need of entries, you might suggest this as Gary said in his response. Jim -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+norlinengineering=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+norlinengineering=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Gary Horstkorta Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:35 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA Hello: Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit into the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. I've raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by a Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if they don't already have a program like this. Gary 1962 TR4 1969 TR6 1969 Triumph Bonneville Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as norlinengineering at comcast.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 17:08:31 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA In-Reply-To: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> References: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yup, there's that. I run the SCCA vintage class fairly often, usually there's good racing to be had. Nearly anything qualifies--they even took my cheater TR3, which has about as much to do with a TR3 as a Nascar truck does. On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:35 PM, Gary Horstkorta wrote: > Hello: > > > > Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race > in a > "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a > series > which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ > for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not > fit into > the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, > SOVERN, > VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA > Vintage. I've > raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown > off by a > Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite > competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always > find > someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort > of > environment. This might be worth investigating in your local > regions if > they don't already have a program like this. > > > > Gary > > > > 1962 TR4 > > 1969 TR6 > > 1969 Triumph Bonneville > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 17:20:46 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:20:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> Message-ID: <94D3FA3E-5D27-4913-B30E-D48BEA2B2552@bnj.com> It's funny, I was just reading a great article on Web standards that made me realize how impossible it is to run an organization in a manner that pleases even a relatively small part of the community that forms around it. Rules are inherently arbitrary or they are not understandable. By that I mean, to take up all the possible definitions of even the simplest thing you must describe it to an absurd degree, and you have to know the future. Here's the article. I'm certain that this isn't a trivial thing, and it's not specific to any issue. It's why Muslim fundamentalists embrace terrorism, why I can't buy a cell phone without buying new chargers, why it's taking me two hours to build a transmission mount for Peyote., Well, maybe not that. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > It comes from the inconsistency in the approach laid out, > inconsistency in application of the rules. 1 strong national > classes (#11) combined #22 into 1 class; 1 class (#16) kept by > itself because it can't be combined with anything else, and some > even question if its consistent with SCCA stated philosophy. > > SCCA has a pre-established method to keeping classes; overall > participation in that class; once it fails to meet the thresholds > set, it is considered for combination and consolidation. > > If SCCA hadn't demonstrated that certain classes get to stay > national, despite not making the cutoff (GT3), or if SCCA was making > way for a tuner class, a drifter class, or something that is clearly > popular, would clearly create draw, and/or demonstrated "business > saavy" to generate income, I would be hard pressed to argue theirm > move > > Such does not appear to be the case. They are doing this why? I > Quote: "In addition, opportunities for new classes such as those > using biofuels and hydro- gen energy sources must be made possible > for the future." I can't even begin to comment on that one. > > Most of the prod racers I've noticed have tended to say, if SCCA > wanted 21 classes, why not just make the run-off cut-off 21 instead > of 23/24 and be done with it? HP either ponies up with > participation or gets trampled, that simple. > > I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in > vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go > away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts. > > Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? > > > Thanks > > -Scott Cypher > spitfireracer at xsmail.com > SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 > Reading, PA > http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher > > > > On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > > > So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't > pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, > costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider > them too dumb to live. From budscars at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 18:01:49 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:01:49 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA References: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <012a01c8c50d$05f13640$0202a8c0@Bud> I'm with Gary on this...The SCCA vintage race that I ran last year at Laguna seca was really fun..even though I blew an engine.......The guy who heads up SCCA vintage out here..Bill Godwin..is very accomodating, and a pleasure to deal with Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Horstkorta" To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA > Hello: > > > > Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a > "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series > which they classify as vintage ( see > www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ > for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit > into > the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, > VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. > I've > raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by > a > Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite > competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find > someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of > environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if > they don't already have a program like this. > > > > Gary > > > > 1962 TR4 > > 1969 TR6 > > 1969 Triumph Bonneville > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 19:18:28 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:18:28 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 5:22:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, srcypher at mac.com writes: I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts.>> Wear a cup! Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher I do, but you can actually get PCS and GCR at SOVREN's website. However, PCS/GCR have some loopholes that are not apparent as they were written without clairvoyance. Since you are in the East you will most likely race with someone who follows SVRA rules. (SVRA, VRG, VDCA). Hear are the Spitfire Supplemental Regulations as well as the Group 1 Regulations. As you can see, we have HP, GP, FP, all of which are very healthy and not going away in the near future. I can't imagine that you cannot make your car vintage legal over the winter. Once in, you'll never look back. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of gr1list2008.pdf] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of TR-Spitfire-08.pdf] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of 2008 Rules & Regs-2.pdf] From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Mon Jun 2 19:33:12 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:33:12 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm vintage legal. Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need any more. Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not ready to jump ship, yet... If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice phrase or witticism (sp?) Thanks -S From budscars at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 20:18:12 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:18:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Message-ID: <015001c8c520$134bf6f0$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello Gang.......We are all very fortunate/made the right decisions/live our souls/etc...We are part of the Racing Family......There just Ain't no sport like this.....whether we agree or disagree with each other...I will bet my bottom dollar....That the Racing Family will come through in a crunch.. there will be Huge support ...if any of us are in a jam... 40+ years of being part of racing has taught me this... Have a Great evening Gang Racer Bud....Spitfire #21 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Cypher" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? > Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares > and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm > vintage legal. > > Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the > change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can > the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then > say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need > any more. > > Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the > straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough > experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle > a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, > so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not > ready to jump ship, yet... > > If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 > prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak > up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I > respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice > phrase or witticism (sp?) > > Thanks > > -S > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From mark at bradakis.com Mon Jun 2 20:29:27 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:29:27 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing plates for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly mounts. On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from his stage name, Bo Diddley. Sigh. mjb., From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 20:29:37 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 22:29:37 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: <3BD7914C.5EA1027D.00159EE9@cs.com> Mark J Bradakis wrote: >I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs >of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing plates >for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards >increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly mounts. > >On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away >Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to >any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from >his stage name, Bo Diddley. > >Sigh. > >mjb., >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From Herald948 at aol.com Mon Jun 2 20:59:36 2008 From: Herald948 at aol.com (Herald948 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:59:36 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 10:25:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark at bradakis.com writes: On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from his stage name, Bo Diddley. ==AM== Means everything to me, as it does/did for Rock and Roll in general...and for folks like the Beatles, Stones, Yardbirds, U2 and about a zillion other performers since. I remember seeing him at an early 1970s Rock and Roll "Revival" concert, back the others on the bill were mostly nostalgia acts. Not Bo! Man, who's left in original guitar legends? Chuck Berry and Les Paul.... bomp bomp-bomp bomp-bomp --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) The Vintage Triumph Register's Triumph 10, Herald and Sports 6 vehicle consultant _http://www.vtr.org_ (http://www.vtr.org/) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database:_ http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 21:44:02 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:44:02 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> References: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <810B4E42-FE6F-4708-92DD-75708FA87C2D@bnj.com> Sigh indeed. On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs > of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing > plates > for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards > increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly > mounts. > > On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away > Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to > any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from > his stage name, Bo Diddley. > > Sigh. > > mjb., > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From GRMTim at aol.com Mon Jun 2 21:47:13 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:47:13 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the street, I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with that car and very often someone stops me and tells me the story about how their, brother, mom, cousin etc. had one and how much they remember the beautiful lines of that car and how well it drove. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/08 2:48:09 AM, Billb at bnj.com writes: > I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who > really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, > but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden age > and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if > drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the 20 > year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has white > hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy in > an old car. > > ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From GRMTim at aol.com Mon Jun 2 21:53:42 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:53:42 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/08 12:13:41 PM, spreiss at verizon.net writes: > I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get > the blood pumping. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? > I've done that too. It is a lot of fun, but can be a bit frustrating too. The Solo II classes have (for the most part) passed the old cars by. Few if any are competitive. It used to be that every year a classic took one class or another at the Solo II Nats, but not much anymore. The news cars have gotten so good and it is so hard, especially in Stock class, to find all the fiddly bits to make an old car legal. Still, I can occassionally surprise a few people (most recently my 14 year old son) with just how capable a Spitfire still is. I also ran my TR3 race car on an autocross course as recently as last Tuesday and turned times close to a modified new MINI. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 21:54:19 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:54:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8643B3DF-1223-4F47-ADEE-20984D20C577@bnj.com> Yeah, but they're old. Don't get me wrong. I like 240Z's, and I remember firsthand when every hairdresser and "executive assistant" had one. I'm amazed Dave Talbot hasn't chimed in here with some kind of a roar since he raced the things back when he had hair. I've got an old Maserati Mistral, and everyone thinks it's a 240Z. They are so very wrong. You can actually go somewhere and return if you have a 240Z. You can't do that with a Mistral. On Jun 2, 2008, at 8:47 PM, GRMTim at aol.com wrote: > Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the > street, I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with > that car and very often someone stops me and tells me the story > about how their, brother, mom, cousin etc. had one and how much they > remember the beautiful lines of that car and how well it drove. > > Tim Suddard > Publisher; Classic Motorsports > and Grassroots Motorsports magazines > www.classicmotorsports.net > www.grassrootsmotorsports.com > Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 > > > In a message dated 6/2/08 2:48:09 AM, Billb at bnj.com writes: > > >> I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who >> really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, >> but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden >> age >> and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if >> drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the >> 20 >> year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has >> white >> hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy >> in >> an old car. >> > > > > > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From lang at isis.mit.edu Tue Jun 3 05:26:38 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 GRMTim at aol.com wrote: > Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the street, > I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with that car and very > often someone stops me and tells me the story about how their, brother, mom, > cousin etc. had one and how much they remember the beautiful lines of that car > and > how well it drove. That's just 'cause er so young. :-) > Tim Suddard > Publisher; Classic Motorsports > and Grassroots Motorsports magazines > www.classicmotorsports.net > www.grassrootsmotorsports.com > Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JWoesvra at aol.com Tue Jun 3 06:24:54 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:24:54 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into their fold. Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From GRMTim at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:24:40 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:24:40 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: > Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting > modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR > has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep > interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further > differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into > their fold. > > Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 3 08:33:23 2008 From: dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net (dale oesterle) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163829.25570.qm@web82202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just a note of appreciation to Jack. He does a great job at SVRA. Have been a member of four or five vintage organizations other than SVRA (and SCCA; I race a spec Miata) and seen it all. SVRA, with Jack, does well. GRMTim at aol.com wrote: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: > Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting > modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR > has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep > interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further > differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into > their fold. > > Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:37:00 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:37:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: In a message dated 6/3/2008 10:25:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim at aol.com writes: You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. I can handle the abuse that my rantings create. If I can stop a speeding locomotive then a bus won't be that difficult. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Lunkercars at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 10:27:58 2008 From: Lunkercars at earthlink.net (Greg "Lunker" Hilyer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:27:58 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Message-ID: <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> Scott, I'm sure we're quite a ways from you - Albuquerque is a long ways from most anywhere, but Southwest Motorsport [swms.org] would welcome you and your car. Our club motto is "a group for every driver, a class for every car". Greg Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares > and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm > vintage legal. > > Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the > change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can > the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then > say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need > any more. > > Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the > straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough > experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle > a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, > so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not > ready to jump ship, yet... > > If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 > prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak > up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I > respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice > phrase or witticism (sp?) > > Thanks > > -S > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as lunkercars at earthlink.net From rocky at spitfire4.com Tue Jun 3 10:48:00 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:48:00 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <002101c8c599$96290d00$6601a8c0@S1099895562> G Prepared in Solo (not Solo 2 any more since Solo 1 went under the clubrace banner and became PDX and time trials). GP is mostly LBCs and their ilk, cars that used to be D prep until the Miatas and MR2s came in and rendered us all uncompetitive. Burt we very much need more in GP or this class will disappear from "lack of interest." If your car would fit in GP, come play with us. Please! --Rocky Entriken '64 Spitfire ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Preiss" To: "Robert Lang" Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? >I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and > get > the blood pumping. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? > Steve P. > spreiss at verizon.net From wgrosenbach at juno.com Tue Jun 3 11:10:23 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:10:23 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <20080603.111025.3988.1.wgrosenbach@juno.com> The Rocky Mountain Region of the National Auto Sports Association, has recently acquired the assets of Colorado's alternative vintage racing organization, Nostalgia Racing, Inc. They are not including all vintage cars in all events at this time, they have too many groups to deal with already. They are not embracing much of the Vintage Motorsports Council, practices or procedures. The date that they got from the NRI deal was a traditional vintage race weekend at Pueblo Motorsports Park. They accepted both open & closed wheel vintage cars at that event. There were around 38 closed wheel cars that included some Vintage Spirit Spec Miata cars, which NRI had been accepting & promoting the past few years. Open wheel was less well subscribed and for their final race on Sunday, there were 2 FV & 1FF cars on track. They had a total entry that weekend of around 180 cars. They will cut into that by requiring a HANS Device, or suitable system very soon. (was 6.1.2008 but. . . ) Future scheduled events may have open wheel OR closed wheel groups. NASA is mostly geared to support the American V-8 powered racer. That said, I'm not sure you could show up with something they could not find a place for. They have a huge set of High Performance Driving Experience groups that progress drivers along. They do operate sessions in the 13/13 Rule format (includes vintage), so contact is discouraged. (Though I've seen people refer to it as "13/13ths", which sounds to me like someone COMPLETELY out of control!) They are flexible, as noted in their rules "NASA offers a wide variety of driving programs throughout the United States including Rally Cross, Rally Sprint, Circle Track Racing, Hill Climbs, Autocrosses, Drag Races, Open Road Races, Time Trials, and more." They are a go fast crowd. I don't see them getting too supportive of little, tiny groups. They could broaden the definition of "Vintage", and I have a feeling they will. They are in a position to be able to alienate those who just came into the fold in an effort to draw a larger new group. There is no true H/Production in vintage racing in this part of the world anymore. A couple of years back, a Frog Eye Sprite showed up sporting an H/P on its flanks, running a 1410 CC, Weber fed engine. It has been acceptable here for years to fit anything with a BMC A-Series engine with the 1275 CC, or your creative version of such, breathing through an unrestricted twin choke side draft. Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing started with a handful of SCCA prepared cars as part of its membership. Those cars were, at the time, already eclipsed by the then permitted SCCA rules. Vintage racers developed beyond there as well, but on a different path. NASA could merge those paths, and be headed for a Region near you. Bill 70 GT-6+ ____________________________________________________________ Click for free info on online degrees and make up to $150K/ year. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nlXF2KEk0E9Pjxtd9ErIF3i5PXmtohp9WnQ8CuN6Wwei2iG/ From Group44TR7 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 11:32:35 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:32:35 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? HSR, GRM, Baseball Message-ID: Amici HSR has been one of the few organizations that has been open to accepting the Group 44 TR7 AND placing it into a reasonable race category (under 2 liter). I personally feel a certain amount of additional pressure as a driver to have this car, with such a great history, to do well in the race. That is a challenge enough for me when I am with comparable cars. Unfortunately, the typical class options for TR7 place them in a situation where they are moving chicanes. Maybe what truly needs to occur is for a new sanctioning body to develope that more actively embraces preserving motor racing history in the period after 1972. Realistically, GRM could help make this happen by building awareness the issue in its pages. Okay, now for a sporting update. Son's team has won the regular season, now heading into playoffs. He ended season with a 850 hitting pace, but is a long ways from a gold glove candidate. As you can imagine, his coach has a love-hate relationship going on with him. I will check back in after the playoff are over :). Cary In a message dated 06/03/2008 6:25:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, GRMTim at aol.com writes: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Tue Jun 3 11:32:54 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:32:54 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1212514374.25433.1256549021@webmail.messagingengine.com> Thank you, Greg. On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:27:58 -0600, "Greg Lunker Hilyer" said: > Scott, > I'm sure we're quite a ways from you - Albuquerque is a long ways > from most anywhere, but Southwest Motorsport [swms.org] would welcome > you and your car. Our club motto is "a group for every driver, a > class for every car". > Greg Hilyer > TR4 #314 > Albuquerque NM > On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > -- Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com From tedtsimx at bright.net Tue Jun 3 14:32:53 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:32:53 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4845AA75.3050404@bright.net> Terry Stetler wrote: > Gents, > > The SCCA has been in constant flux regarding classes since it's inception. > There is nothing new here. When was the last race for B Sedan?. A Sports > Racer? C Modified, or one many won't recall, Spec VW Bug? > > SCCA has always been about what's current, even though it may not seem so. > When I first joined 36 years ago, Production cars were the bread and butter of > the racing program. Why? Because there were still a lot of manufacturers > selling sports cars, and selling them in good numbers as well. That is no > longer the case. Without manufacturer support the SCCA would have dried up a > long time ago. Just my take on it. > > Now, as to the cars we know and love. Can you really expect to continue > development on a car that was last produced over 30 year ago? As much as I > love my old proper British sports cars, it is just not realistic to be > competitive against modern designs with equal prep rules. A brand new MGB > (for example) street car would be beaten up one side and down the other by a > new Miata street car. Why expect different from competetion prepped cars? > And the Miata will be far less expensive I the long run to keep running, hence > their (as well as others) ascendance in SCCA racing. > > I have a personal friend in a similar fix. He is a long time SCCA racer in > the midwest who campaigns a Lotus Elan. New rules have effectively made the > car obsolete. I keep trying to get him to cut the flairs off and go vintage > racing. I know he would have a great time, but old habits die hard I guess. > > It's a real problem, but not one without choices. > > I wish all of you the best. > > Terry Stetler > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as tedtsimx at bright.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1478 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:12 AM > Terry and list. Everybody is making a good point. But no one has asked the real question - "Why did you go racing?" If the answer is to win, then you follow a path to a venue that values winning. If the answer is anything else, camaraderie, conversation at the water cooler or back yard barbecue or an inherent desire to spend money, then you find a venue that allows you to do that. Terry is absolutely correct, manufacturer's and/or the desire to sell products drive racing. Witness the stock car wars of the '60's all the way to last Sunday's NASCAR race, Honda in IRL or Porsche in several professional motorsports arena's. The big vintage sanctioning bodies, SVRA/HSR, are for profit groups. Even though SVRA is the "kinder, gentler" version of HSR's run what you brung, the cars we are involved with have been chased out. Either by rising costs, less time or ??? Sure there may be an exception at 1 event but look at the numbers for the year. 10 years ago small bore English, German and Italian cars would run up your leg when you walked through the paddock. Now the numbers are no where the same. The small cars are almost outnumbered by number of big transporters. Not a complaint, just a fact of life. The big rig guys can probably afford to spend more dollars per laps run than a Spitfire driver. The answer is the same as it's always been. Decide what and why then go find a place to do it.. -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From hottr6 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 15:22:51 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:22:51 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: Uncle Jack asked: > While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. > What's the best thing to do I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 From fpspitfire at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 15:28:40 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:28:40 +0000 Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <060320082128.24314.4845B7880000F16400005EFA22120207840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> All, While this is apparently a hot topic for some people. There have been some comments made that are certainly interesting. I would like to clear a couple things up. 1)The basis of the SCCA production category is that all cars SHALL be given allowances or hinderances to maintain each cars competetiveness in their class. I only brought this up because the current direction completely jacks with us and says your car is not going to be in that class anymore and you must change to make it in a new class. 2) I have no desire to change my car to run vintage and never made any comment that I want to run vintage, it's too far gone to change back ($10k probably) and I don't think the vintage crowd is for me. 3) Thanks to all of you who pointed me in the direction of midwest council and a couple other places. 4) SCCA could make a bunch of money by making all the groups that use their past GCR pay royalties. 5) I don't want to take my car somewhere and kick peoples ass with it...I just want to go run it in a class where it's as competetive as it is in it's current class. I'd prefer to not have to make any changes to it...there are going to be a lot of people in the same boat. I will still contend that vintage groups not thinking about accepting current cars is short sighted. The average driver is getting older and can't be out there for ever. Younger guys are not building vintage cars. I'm a pretty rare guy who is under 35 and races an older car. Thanks for the input...now lets move on to something else. aaron From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Tue Jun 3 16:11:53 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:11:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can say that I have many years on poly diff mounts. I used the first ones available back in the late 70's when somebody was pouring them into homemade molds, and I still have them. I replaced them with the newer, finer quality stuff that is now available but the old red ones looked better after 15 years than the rubber ones do after 3. I would argue that the diff needs to be fairly securely mounted. The gears inside are precisely mated and not likely to be effected by the additional harshness. I guess that's a matter of opinion. I suspect that firm mounting helps the half-shaft u-joints live longer. Failed rubber mounts are a leading cause of rear diff mount bracket failures. I don't think it's the harshness that does in the diff mounts, rather the hammering effect after the rubber collapses. I wouldn't solid mount it, but I think poly is perfect. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Shane Ingate Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:23 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Uncle Jack asked: > While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. > What's the best thing to do I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From ejmajor250 at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 18:12:01 2008 From: ejmajor250 at comcast.net (Ed Major) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:12:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts References: Message-ID: <001301c8c5d7$9d54ccc0$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Back before I knew of the "poly" mounts, I used to just add washers to the old rubber mounts and squeeze them up until I had very little movement, a poor man's way of stiffening up the diff mounts. I think I copied Jack Wheeler or somebody who gave me the advice. Ed '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kramer, Robert" To: "Shane Ingate" ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts >I can say that I have many years on poly diff mounts. I used the first ones > available back in the late 70's when somebody was pouring them into > homemade > molds, and I still have them. I replaced them with the newer, finer > quality > stuff that is now available but the old red ones looked better after 15 > years > than the rubber ones do after 3. > > I would argue that the diff needs to be fairly securely mounted. The gears > inside are precisely mated and not likely to be effected by the additional > harshness. I guess that's a matter of opinion. I suspect that firm > mounting > helps the half-shaft u-joints live longer. Failed rubber mounts are a > leading > cause of rear diff mount bracket failures. I don't think it's the > harshness > that does in the diff mounts, rather the hammering effect after the rubber > collapses. I wouldn't solid mount it, but I think poly is perfect. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Shane Ingate > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:23 PM > To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts > > Uncle Jack asked: >> While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. >> What's the best thing to do > > I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them > so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. > > Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for > solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box > and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition > when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts > for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. > > I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the > poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. > http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s > kydrive_062008 > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as ejmajor250 at comcast.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 20:52:11 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <420605.29649.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> And to beat the dead horse a bit more. In a few years, the Miata will be a vintage car as well and it is prepped to 2008 specs, and so are our spitfires. If they will be allowed, and they will eventually, will the current spec spitfires etc still be disallowed? Why not allow them now, create a class for them. People enjoy seeing these cars perform, I have had many comments about how nice it is to see my car on the track. I am proud of that. I have a historically significant marque car, maybe not individually significant but as a Triumph it is, shoot it has even graced the pages of Kas' recent book and it is reflective of the continued interest in the car that it has survived up to now in SCCA. Imagine seeing 15 or 20 newly prepared cars (bugeyes, sprites, spits) with the vintage prepped cars. Phew that would be great. Even if I didn't have a car (dog in the hunt), I would still find that thought to be great. Like at WGI this fall, what a show that should be. If this can be accommodated for this event, why not for others? And just like the stereotype that vintage is just a parade, well not everyone with an SCCA car wants to dive bomb someone into the turn. I want to win, but not at the expense of my friend's cars or my own. It saddens me to think I could not be running SCCA. It was the best of the best. Love it or hate, you could not ignore it. There is only one SCCA and all the rest are just the rest in my book. While they all have their qualities, no organization has the history (good and bad), and I would bet everyone who has contributed here has memories of some great racing either personally or friends or otherwise. As Triumph enthusiasts, how do we not want to run where Kas and the Group ran. It means a lot to me even if it doesn't to others. And to be able to continue to drive the car and keep the marque going once it is no longer an SCCA eligible car, to join those that have already carried on the history from an earlier time of preparation sounds like it would be a blast. Freezing the rule set effective 2008 would be welcome by me. I don't want my car to gain any more weight (even if I continue to)... ;))) ----- Original Message ---- From: "fpspitfire at comcast.net" To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 5:28:40 PM Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts All, While this is apparently a hot topic for some people. There have been some comments made that are certainly interesting. I would like to clear a couple things up. 1)The basis of the SCCA production category is that all cars SHALL be given allowances or hinderances to maintain each cars competetiveness in their class. I only brought this up because the current direction completely jacks with us and says your car is not going to be in that class anymore and you must change to make it in a new class. 2) I have no desire to change my car to run vintage and never made any comment that I want to run vintage, it's too far gone to change back ($10k probably) and I don't think the vintage crowd is for me. 3) Thanks to all of you who pointed me in the direction of midwest council and a couple other places. 4) SCCA could make a bunch of money by making all the groups that use their past GCR pay royalties. 5) I don't want to take my car somewhere and kick peoples ass with it...I just want to go run it in a class where it's as competetive as it is in it's current class. I'd prefer to not have to make any changes to it...there are going to be a lot of people in the same boat. I will still contend that vintage groups not thinking about accepting current cars is short sighted. The average driver is getting older and can't be out there for ever. Younger guys are not building vintage cars. I'm a pretty rare guy who is under 35 and races an older car. Thanks for the input...now lets move on to something else. aaron Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaxonracing at yahoo.com From budscars at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 23:26:25 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:26:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] test Message-ID: <00d801c8c603$88efd640$0202a8c0@Bud> test From Group44TR7 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 09:43:27 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:43:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: Amici One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries foremost experts on oil pricing. Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. There is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that price. Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. Now an explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own investment and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These funds now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they previous held virtually none. If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to check where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the large public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the investment firms debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. Of course, it their investors moneys. Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him in person. Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. Cary **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 11:31:48 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:31:48 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: Drip? I've got a waterfall. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From timmurph at fastbytes.com Wed Jun 4 11:47:03 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:47:03 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read References: Message-ID: <001801c8c66a$ffb64ef0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Oil is traded in US dollars. The weak dollar is now at $1.60 per Euro. If the dollar was strong and at $1.00 per Euro (which is what the projected exchange rate was when the Euro was adopted) a barrel of oil would be a bit less than $80 per barrel now. $124/bbl divided by $1.60 per Euro is 77.5 Euros/bbl. Hence at $1.00 per Euro oil would be $77.50/bbl. I was involved in negotiating a contract with a German firm supplying controls to my former employer. The Euro was just about to be adopted and in fact by the time the negotiations were completed it had been adopted. There was much discussion as to how to handle the exchange rate fluctuations. It was projected for at least the next 5 years that the exchange rate would vary between $0.95 and $1.05 per Euro. If you are looking for someone to blame for the high oil prices you can look no further that the Congress and Executive branch over the last 40 years which has engaged in huge deficit spending and running up the national debt which has now come home to roost with a very much weakened US dollar. No different than you and I. Keep running up huge debts and sooner or later the bill has to be paid. In international currency there is no Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 (I think) bankruptcy to bail you out. Your currency just tanks on the international market. Interestingly there has been little or no discussion in this election year from the candidates about the national debt or the weak dollar. I guess it's hard for a politician to point the finger at himself! My thoughts. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:43 AM Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > Amici > > One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics > (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries > foremost > experts on oil pricing. > > Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. > There > is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that > price. > Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it > alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. > Now an > explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. > > Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and > investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own > investment > and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These > funds > now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they > previous held virtually none. > > If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand > for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to > check > where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the > large > public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the > investment firms > debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. > Of > course, it their investors moneys. > > Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this > morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him > in person. > Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. > > Cary > > > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From LOddTR at aol.com Wed Jun 4 12:21:45 2008 From: LOddTR at aol.com (LOddTR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:21:45 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: An article with similar comments was in USA Today this morning. In a message dated 6/4/2008 11:50:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Group44TR7 at aol.com writes: Amici One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries foremost experts on oil pricing. Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. There is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that price. Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. Now an explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own investment and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These funds now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they previous held virtually none. If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to check where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the large public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the investment firms debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. Of course, it their investors moneys. Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him in person. Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. Cary **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as loddtr at aol.com **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From triosan at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 12:27:12 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:27:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> As long as we are on the topic: Senate witness today described the chairman of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), which is allowing U.S. oil futures market speculation to be "regulated" by British and Dubai, instead of American, authorities. In a hearing on manipulation of the skyrocketing oil price, the expert witness, University of Maryland law professor Michael Greenberger, told seven angry members of the Senate Commerce Committee that 35% of U.S.-based trading in West Texas Intermediate Crude oil futures has shifted to "dark markets," completely unregulated, by agreement with Britain. On these markets in particular, Greenberger said, a few hedge funds and three investment houses--Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and JP Morgan Chase--are controlling 70% of the speculative buying of U.S. oil futures and driving the price of oil steadily upward, while "ironically, issuing `predictions' that it's going to $200/barrel." This London-Wall Street speculative manipulation of oil and energy prices, with the knowing wink of the CFTC and its chairmanWalter Lukken, was also targetted by Consumer Federation of America witness Dr. Mark Cooper, and by the Senators themselves, as "the London Loophole" accounting for anywhere from 35-50% of the current price of a barrel of crude oil. Cooper told the Senators, "Roll up your sleeves, assert the national authority of the United States, and regulate these markets." On May 25, Sen. Maria Cantwell and 22 other Senators had released a letter to the CFTC demanding that the "London Loophole" be closed. Lukken had responded on May 29 promising action "by Fall." That exchange alone was enough, said Greenberger, to brake the dizzying oil price rise at about $135-going-on-$200, and pull it back down to around $125/barrel. Senator Cantwell said after today's hearing, "Now there will be a lot more signers; and I believe CFTC will take the action required by the economy, and by the morality of the American people, now." If not, she believes the Senate will legislate to force CFTC's hand. Greenberger and Cooper laid out in detail, how 35% of West Texas crude futures are traded on a market headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia--the Intercontinental Commodity Exchange, or ICE--which by CFTC staff actions, is juridically a London offshore market overseen only by the British Financial Services Authority! And oil futures trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) is now "regulated" only by the London-controlled financial authority of Dubai, under another CFTC staff agreement. On what are effectively British offshore markets, Greenberger said, the above-cited banks and hedge funds are simply "continuing and repeating the `subprime' crash of the securities markets, and all their derivatives, on the commodities markets." Adding a sobering note, Gerry Ramm of the Petroleum Marketers Association of America told the Committee that gasoline/diesel/propane dealers all over the country were facing bankruptcy and would start closing their stations, because "we can't get the credit to buy our receivables" which have doubled in price. From spitlist at cox.net Wed Jun 4 13:02:38 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:02:38 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people influencing these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to diesel power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Arnold" To: ; "Friends" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read From REK46 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 13:05:22 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:05:22 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: In keeping with conspiracy's...they are prob trying to put the independent truckers out of business, so then the large conglomerate multi-national truckers can take all the business and jack up the prices sky high on all our food and commerce. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Wed Jun 4 13:22:04 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 REK46 at aol.com wrote: > In keeping with conspiracy's...they are prob trying to put the independent > truckers out of business, so then the large conglomerate multi-national truckers > can take all the business and jack up the prices sky high on all our food and > commerce. No - Commodore Vanderbilt is still pissed off that we broke up his rail monopolies and is trying to get back into the driver's seat. :-) rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From S.Janzen at comcast.net Wed Jun 4 13:33:38 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:33:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Diesel and Gas out of a Barrel of oil References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> This is an exerpt from a larger article - apparently the refining process is not what most of us assume. "Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil refineries tend to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. Most U.S. refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each barrel of crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and most of the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that minimizes the production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the stuff, so it exports it to America-about one of every eight gallons of gasoline that we consume. " ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Curry" To: "Chuck Arnold" ; ; "Friends" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand > requires > less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to > reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people influencing > these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to > diesel > power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. > > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Arnold" > To: ; "Friends" > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net From Billb at bnj.com Wed Jun 4 18:33:01 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:33:01 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Diesel and Gas out of a Barrel of oil In-Reply-To: <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: Yup. Diesel isn't that easy to get from Crude unless you target it. Diesel is actually a lot like plant oil, which is one of many reasons why biodiesel production is possible. It's interesting that some folks are starting to target direct production of diesel from bioengineered algae, which if you think about it, is pretty much how we get crude to begin with. No interceding steps--just big shallow tanks on non-arable land being skimmed. There's even a scheme for using highway medians for the tanks and skimming with freeway-traveling converter trucks. In the short term there will be schemes and speculators, in the long term oil from the ground will be a lot less important. At least it better be. The supply of oil in the world is huge, but finite. On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > This is an exerpt from a larger article - apparently the refining > process is > not what most of us assume. > "Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil > refineries tend > to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. > Most U.S. > refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each > barrel of > crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the > remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied > petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and > most of > the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which > produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that > barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel > production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that > minimizes the > production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the > stuff, so > it exports it to America-about one of every eight gallons of > gasoline that > we consume. " > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Curry" > To: "Chuck Arnold" ; ; "Friends" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To > Read > > >> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand >> requires >> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is >> trying to >> reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people >> influencing >> these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to >> diesel >> power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. >> >> Joe C. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chuck Arnold" >> To: ; "Friends" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To >> Read >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From mark at bradakis.com Wed Jun 4 20:31:01 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:31:01 -0600 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Hillclimb and Autocross project car for sale $750 In-Reply-To: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <48474FE5.2030202@bradakis.com> Boy, am I glad that car is so far away from me! My first Triumph was a GT6, and I want another one some day. mjb. From DSPGTi at aol.com Wed Jun 4 21:05:00 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:05:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: Let me give you a little observation. You can judge if it has any merit. Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb, in a town in Pennsylvania of the same name. The hillclimb was originally run many years ago when hillclimbs in the East were actually part of the SCCA National Championship. It was held on the property of the Hershey Foods Company (the Hershey Bar and Hershey Kisses) on an access road to the Hershey Hotel. In order to bring back the event the organizers convinced the Hershey Company that it was going to be a "Historic Event" and that a significant piece or racing history was going to be preserved. The first year had a modest turn out but some of the cars that showed had significant racing history and created a lot of interest. I ran my TR4 that year and once more two years later. The second year didn't see much improvement and there were a lot of questions about adequate insurance coverage. The organizers approached the Antique Automobile Club of America which is headquartered in Hershey, PA as well. Yes, they could bring to the table a suitable insurance coverage package. The only problem was by their standards (AACA) cars would qualify if they were 25 years old. The next couple of years, the numbers of entries increased. Just this year they had 70 some entries, about twice the number from the start. Think that is good? By my observation very few cars and racing significance this year. I personally had no interest in running there. My reason for being there was I rented out my 1980 ITC Rabbit to someone who had an interest in getting into "Vintage" racing. The field had a mixture of up to date SCCA cars (a bunch of current hillclimb cars from our PHA group), Bugeyes with Rotary motors, Legends cars with motorcycle motors a few C4 (1984 up) Corvettes. There were maybe a half to a dozen authentic Vintage cars. A few people asked me, "Where did the cool cars go?" "What happened to the old Jags and the AC Bristol's and stuff like that"? "How come you don't have your TR out"? "What the hell is that"? pointing the Legends car. We will see what the future brings for the Hershey Historic Hillclimb, but I won't give it much chance for survival. Most vintage drivers don't want to go back and spectators aren't getting what they came to see. They certainly didn't come out to see a Rabbit. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 21:51:54 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <656786.78875.qm@web53509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> but a spitfire that looks like a spitfire that runs spitfire components (including SU's not webers) and is well prepared and runs well on the track is different than a bunch of cars that have been modified with all kinds of different combinations I would bet that if I were to enter the WGI event this fall, my car would garner as much attention as some of the "classic" prepared cars. It looks like a spitfire that is a race car. No different than many others that will be there except a little wider. Alot of people have commented on how we improved this or that or I remember when I had one and it must be a blast to drive. The car is not a bastardization of 2 or more cars under a spitfire shell, it is a car that just happens to have fiberglass and wider tires. The lines are clean and the car is recognizable to enthusiasts. ----- Original Message ---- From: "DSPGTi at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 11:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Let me give you a little observation. You can judge if it has any merit. Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb, in a town in Pennsylvania of the same name. The hillclimb was originally run many years ago when hillclimbs in the East were actually part of the SCCA National Championship. It was held on the property of the Hershey Foods Company (the Hershey Bar and Hershey Kisses) on an access road to the Hershey Hotel. In order to bring back the event the organizers convinced the Hershey Company that it was going to be a "Historic Event" and that a significant piece or racing history was going to be preserved. The first year had a modest turn out but some of the cars that showed had significant racing history and created a lot of interest. I ran my TR4 that year and once more two years later. The second year didn't see much improvement and there were a lot of questions about adequate insurance coverage. The organizers approached the Antique Automobile Club of America which is headquartered in Hershey, PA as well. Yes, they could bring to the table a suitable insurance coverage package. The only problem was by their standards (AACA) cars would qualify if they were 25 years old. The next couple of years, the numbers of entries increased. Just this year they had 70 some entries, about twice the number from the start. Think that is good? By my observation very few cars and racing significance this year. I personally had no interest in running there. My reason for being there was I rented out my 1980 ITC Rabbit to someone who had an interest in getting into "Vintage" racing. The field had a mixture of up to date SCCA cars (a bunch of current hillclimb cars from our PHA group), Bugeyes with Rotary motors, Legends cars with motorcycle motors a few C4 (1984 up) Corvettes. There were maybe a half to a dozen authentic Vintage cars. A few people asked me, "Where did the cool cars go?" "What happened to the old Jags and the AC Bristol's and stuff like that"? "How come you don't have your TR out"? "What the hell is that"? pointing the Legends car. We will see what the future brings for the Hershey Historic Hillclimb, but I won't give it much chance for survival. Most vintage drivers don't want to go back and spectators aren't getting what they came to see. They certainly didn't come out to see a Rabbit. Dave Y. ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From N197TR4 at cs.com Thu Jun 5 08:42:48 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:42:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status Message-ID: FOT, The last conversation I had with I - J Crank scrapers indicated that steel was being processed. We also worked on verifying details where there were variations of component configurations. Crower/Moldex/OEM Cranks, etc. A number of FOT took care of us on these non-oem configurations by working with I - J prior to this PROJECT. Thanks mostly the forward thinking West Coast Guys. One west coaster has received his system and reports that he is extremely pleased with I - J on their cooperation for design for his scraper, and alloy pan configured windage tray. I suspect that shipping will start in a couple of weeks, but I dont have a specfic schedule for shipping yet. I have (12) invoices paid out of (28) systems ordered. I am not cashing these checks yet as I have only been billed for the material so far. But I expect the balance shortly. If anyone decides that this system is worth considering for their Triumph Engine, at this point, please contact me. Regards, Joe Alexander From triosan at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 09:14:29 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:14:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806050814r46acbd92s5ba396182e001934@mail.gmail.com> Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their block/crank]. Went in when the engine was out. There was a little interference on the tray, but the grinder fixed that straight away. I was concerned when I assembled it that the interference with the oil pump on install would not allow me to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. No interference on the tray. Chuck On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:42 AM, wrote: > FOT, > > The last conversation I had with I - J Crank scrapers indicated that steel > was being processed. We also worked on verifying details where there were > variations of component configurations. Crower/Moldex/OEM Cranks, etc. > > A number of FOT took care of us on these non-oem configurations by working > with > I - J prior to this PROJECT. Thanks mostly the forward thinking West Coast > Guys. > > One west coaster has received his system and reports that he is extremely > pleased with I - J on their cooperation for design for his scraper, and > alloy > pan configured windage tray. > > I suspect that shipping will start in a couple of weeks, but I dont have a > specfic schedule for shipping yet. > > I have (12) invoices paid out of (28) systems ordered. I am not cashing > these checks yet as I have only been billed for the material so far. But I > expect > the balance shortly. > > If anyone decides that this system is worth considering for their Triumph > Engine, at this point, please contact me. > > Regards, > > Joe Alexander > > > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as triosan at gmail.com > -- Chuck Arnold From N197TR4 at cs.com Thu Jun 5 09:35:18 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:35:18 EDT Subject: [Fot] Thanks Chuck...Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status Message-ID: Chuck....Since I have no experience yet, this is encouraging and useful information....and thanks for breaking the ground on this feature. Joe Alexander > Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from > crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their block/crank]. Went in > when the engine was out. There was a little interference on the tray, but > the grinder fixed that straight away. I was concerned when I assembled it that > the interference with the oil pump on install would not allow me to remove > the oil pan with the engine in the car. > > I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. > Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two > small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. No > interference on the tray. > > Chuck > From hottr6 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:06:25 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:06:25 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joe Curry asked: > Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires > less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to > reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for) ULS diesel for many years You will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to. I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is due to the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust now smells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From triosan at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:16:19 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:16:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Thanks Chuck...Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806050916k6de1704akb78078f0439a1794@mail.gmail.com> Forgot to mention, the one thing that made installing it while engine in the car is that I have switched to using studs and nuts to hold on the pan. The studs allow the scraper and spacer to be held in place when installed to there is a way to place them in and then install the pan with the windage tray in it. There are pictures of my first install [engine out] are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/WindageTrayScraprerAndStuds Chuck On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:35 AM, wrote: > Chuck....Since I have no experience yet, this is encouraging and useful > information....and thanks for breaking the ground on this feature. > > Joe Alexander > > > Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from > crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their > block/crank]. Went in when the engine was out. There was a little > interference on the tray, but the grinder fixed that straight away. I was > concerned when I assembled it that the interference with the oil pump on > install would not allow me to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. > > > I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. > Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two > small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. > No interference on the tray. > > Chuck > > > > -- Chuck Arnold From hottr6 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:16:50 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:16:50 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Herschey Hillclimb [was other venues to SCCA...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave Y. wrote: > Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb I have done Hershey, and it is a great climb, one of the better in PA. Yes, there are a mix of cars (even a Modified!). Hillclimbs have never been about "just vintage cars", so if you go to a hillclimb expecting just a particular group of cars, you will be disappointed. However, that is not the allure of hillclimbs. Like drag racing and autoX, it is the variety of cars that makes it fun and interesting. I've seen ex-NASCAR, ex-F1, go-carts and specials on steroids, in addition to the more easily identified vehicles based on production cars. Hillclimbs do not make great spectator events, and are more oriented towards drivers. I highly recommend them. I wonder if they ever have hillclimbs up Sandia Peak in ABQ? Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 10:41:26 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:41:26 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: Message-ID: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't have any diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had no reason to check. The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. Thanks, Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Ingate To: spitlist at cox.net Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for)ULS diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. From rhlamp at babcock.com Thu Jun 5 10:57:16 2008 From: rhlamp at babcock.com (Lamp, Randy H) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:57:16 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Off Subject In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> Can anyone tell me how I can get taken off the list? I find the information to be informative and interesting ,but emails are currently coming to my office computer and they are starting to frown on this kind of thing. If at all possible I would like to be removed only temporarily until other arrangements can be made. I contacted the administrator about two months ago but heard nothing in return. Thanks for any assistance you might be able to provide. Great site ,great people! R. Lamp -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rhlamp=babcock.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rhlamp=babcock.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:41 PM To: Shane Ingate Cc: Friends of Triumph Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't have any diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had no reason to check. The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. Thanks, Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Ingate To: spitlist at cox.net Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for)ULS diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- - Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rhlamp at babcock.com ----------------------------------------- This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and contains information that is proprietary to The Babcock & Wilcox Company and/or its affiliates, or may be otherwise confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message from your computer. Thank you. From Billb at bnj.com Thu Jun 5 10:59:12 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:59:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's On Jun 5, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't > have any > diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had > no reason > to check. > > The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. > > Thanks, > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shane Ingate > To: spitlist at cox.net > Cc: Friends of Triumph > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM > Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > > > Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel > (which I > understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore > should be > cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years > ago, the > US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not > only > required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to > produce > than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying > for)ULS > diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less > smoky exhaust > than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the > exhaust, > and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are > using. The > exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central > NM. Needless > to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites > through > Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 11:28:07 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:28:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> Message-ID: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Babcock To: Joe Curry Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 4 20:32:18 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:32:18 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <004801c8c6b4$6098f8f0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> The new Malibu has gotten great reviews, and is IMOHO far from ugly. Probably very comfy and safe. That class of car now gets very good mileage on the hiway, if that will be the type of commute you are forced to do. That said..... Nother alternative is to find some type of work very close to home, and really save energy. That is what I am doing, and I love not having to get gussied and saddled up every morning for a tiresome, expensive trek to an office where I feel uncomfortable all day, only to have to go back and do it all over again the next morning. I'm making less, spending less, and having a much better time of it. Best wishes! Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Curry" To: "Bill Babcock" Cc: "Shane Ingate" ; "Friends of Triumph" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and > I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting > another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been > workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry > about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit > hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when > towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another > vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder > that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So > If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. > > Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Babcock > To: Joe Curry > Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > > > The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes > something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 > and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as > expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 > gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider > gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 > Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm > riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 > MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. > > > If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an > electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four > strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental > conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit > more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 5 12:00:09 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:00:09 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > So If I will be commuting, I have > to find another > vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 5 12:06:21 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:06:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Off Subject In-Reply-To: <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> Message-ID: <000001c8c736$dc3ebe40$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Can anyone tell me how I can get taken off the list? At the bottom of every message is a link to a web page. Eg, > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot Go to that page, to the last box, fill in your email address (rhlamp at babcock.com) and click the button that says "Unsubscribe ...". Randall From herald948 at aol.com Thu Jun 5 12:51:26 2008 From: herald948 at aol.com (Andrew Mace) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:51:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... In-Reply-To: <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Randall Joe mused: > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. Randall replied: Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? ==AM== My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-) --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) Triumph 10 / Herald / Sports 6 vehicle consultant for The Vintage Triumph Register Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database at its new URL: From trmarty at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 13:11:37 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:11:37 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... In-Reply-To: <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm gonna guess Joe will be looking for something with air conditioning for a daily driver :) Marty > To: fot at autox.team.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:51:26 -0400> From: herald948 at aol.com> Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...> > -----Original Message-----> From: Randall > > Joe mused:> > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets > considerably better mileage.> > Randall replied:> > Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ?> > ==AM==> My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 > or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able > to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-)> > --Andy Mace> > *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet?> *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, > Triumph Herald engine with wings.> -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22)> > Triumph 10 / Herald / Sports 6 vehicle consultant for The Vintage > Triumph Register > > Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph > Herald Database at its new URL: > _______________________________________________> http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Fot mailing list> Fot at autox.team.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot> > You are subscribed as trmarty at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 13:31:44 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:31:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com><005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin><01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c8c742$c9bdfea0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> To be perfectly frank, I have never been able to achieve the sort of fuel mileage with any Spit that people tell me that they are getting. Maybe it's the way I drive. But that alone is the reason I have never considered buildingaSpit for that purpose. Plus I already have a garage full of Spits that I would never leave parked on a lot all day. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Mace" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... > -----Original Message----- > From: Randall > > Joe mused: > > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets > considerably better mileage. > > Randall replied: > > Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? > > ==AM== > My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 > or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able > to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-) From kaskas at cox.net Thu Jun 5 14:29:43 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something there that can respond. From BillDentin at aol.com Thu Jun 5 15:29:09 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:29:09 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging Message-ID: **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Return-path: From: BillDentin at aol.com Full-name: BillDentin Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:24:49 EDT Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging To: kaskas at cox.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10721 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 1.01d X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 06/05/2008 3:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time, kaskas at cox.net writes: > Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > I am not surprised. The ex-Executive Vice President of Operations for Nissan Performance Technology, Inc., knew his onions and pretty much got them on the right track. Can't think of his name right now. R. W. something. Bill (Damdinger) ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitfiresuz at 141.com Thu Jun 5 15:51:10 2008 From: spitfiresuz at 141.com (spitfiresuz at 141.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:51:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: <380-22008645215110924@M2W023.mail2web.com> 23-25 mpg? Ha. I get 40-45 in my little car: http://i29.tinypic.com/30uuviw.jpg Unfortunately, when I stand on it, I got nuthin'. The only necks snapping are when people see me go by! ;) Susan :) PS - I drove it to work Tuesday in the small town I work in and created a hullabaloo in the parking lot all day long. The next day a sergeant in the police department called my office and asked if anyone in the office was the owner of the little yellow car. I tentatively said, "Um, that would be me." He said, "What kind of car was that!?!" I had to laugh. :) Original Message: ----------------- From: Kas Kastner kaskas at cox.net Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:43 -0700 To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg... -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com  What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint From tlizzard at msn.com Thu Jun 5 16:01:26 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:01:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging References: Message-ID: My daily driver is a 2003 Honda Civic SI hatchback. Two liter twin cam,160 BHP, and the ability to run 130mph, *ahem* or so they say *ahem*. In my daily running around town I get 25mpg, on the highway running 70~75 on the "snooze control" it delivers 35mpg. It's fun to toss around, (for a front wheel driver anyway), and has been reliable as a stone. Does it all on regular gas too. Terry Stetler. From greenman62 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 16:15:27 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:15:27 +0000 Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale Message-ID: It looks like I'll be heading West in the late summer... For those who know me know this really isn't a surprise. My job was eliminated last September. It was the primary thing that was keeping me in the Midwest since my wife died. My family is on the West Coast and I wanted to get closer to them ( you can't properly spoil Grandchildren long distance). I took the opportunity to "go freelance" (which is graphic designers, photogs talk for "I'm sort of unemployed"). I'm also exploring what this "partial retirement" thing is like... so far I've been plenty busy. My old employer has had me back for work on a number of occasions (at consultant wages), getting my house ready to sell, taking a web design course at the local community college and waiting the arrival of my second grand kid. Maybelle Bridgid arrived on schedule late in March. She's beautiful, smart, strong and did I mention beautiful? I passed the Web Design course with flying colors, and "Castle Pretentious" sold after only 10 days on the market. Closing is in September so I have to get out to Oregon and find someplace to live before I become "homeless". I hope I can catch up with you all before I relocate. I'll be at Blackhawk Farms next weekend, I don't think I'll be able to make the KIC. I'm scheduled to work the race weekend at the Autobahn in July. Other than that I'm really not sure what my calendar will hold for the rest of the summer. Of course if your racing schedules take you west of the Rockies I'll still be covering and going to vintage races ( the folks at Victory Lane said the would keep me busy) in the Northwest. All the best to you all, Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From kaskas at cox.net Thu Jun 5 16:21:22 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:21:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Regrets Message-ID: <009a01c8c75a$7c5af920$3a16c548@RW> Sorry I brought up the mileage subject, hello Greyhound. From earthron at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:14:42 2008 From: earthron at yahoo.com (Ron Jones) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My daily driver is a 98 Mercury Grand Marquise. The mileage is not bad for a big boat, 16 town and 24.8 on the last 700mile, 70+mph cruise. Ron 1958 TR3A in process 1963 TR4 Race Car Kas Kastner wrote: Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 nia street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something there that can respond. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as earthron at yahoo.com From jibjib at att.net Thu Jun 5 17:58:04 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:58:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ac01c8c767$ff816c50$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Welcome home (soon) Greg, Jack Seattle -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of greenman62 at hotmail.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:15 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale It looks like I'll be heading West in the late summer... For those who know me know this really isn't a surprise. My job was eliminated last September. It was the primary thing that was keeping me in the Midwest since my wife died. My family is on the West Coast and I wanted to get closer to them ( you can't properly spoil Grandchildren long distance). I took the opportunity to "go freelance" (which is graphic designers, photogs talk for "I'm sort of unemployed"). I'm also exploring what this "partial retirement" thing is like... so far I've been plenty busy. My old employer has had me back for work on a number of occasions (at consultant wages), getting my house ready to sell, taking a web design course at the local community college and waiting the arrival of my second grand kid. Maybelle Bridgid arrived on schedule late in March. She's beautiful, smart, strong and did I mention beautiful? I passed the Web Design course with flying colors, and "Castle Pretentious" sold after only 10 days on the market. Closing is in September so I have to get out to Oregon and find someplace to live before I become "homeless". I hope I can catch up with you all before I relocate. I'll be at Blackhawk Farms next weekend, I don't think I'll be able to make the KIC. I'm scheduled to work the race weekend at the Autobahn in July. Other than that I'm really not sure what my calendar will hold for the rest of the summer. Of course if your racing schedules take you west of the Rockies I'll still be covering and going to vintage races ( the folks at Victory Lane said the would keep me busy) in the Northwest. All the best to you all, Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 5 20:13:34 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:13:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR3 at auction Message-ID: <864E932F43644AB7AA7847F564C92A6F@SohlPC> >From my latest issue of Old Cars Weekly... At the Worldwide Houston Classic auction (Seabrook, TX 5/3/08) 1963 TR-3B sold for $40,700 (no other info available) Cheers Bill Sohl From greenman62 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 20:17:43 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:17:43 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > My daily driver is a 98 Mercury Grand Marquise. The mileage is not bad for a big boat, 16 town and 24.8 on the last 700mile, 70+mph cruise. I guess I'll chime in here. My 2002 Audi TT quattro commonly gives ~30mpg on the highway also cruising at 70+. I originally bought it used as a toy car. It quickly proved itself to be more practical for me than the family hauler, a 2002, A4 bought new several years before my wife passed away. Great aerodynamics, I guess. Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 5 20:54:27 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: I get 40+ miles to the gallon. I hate almost every second of being in that car, a 2000 Toyota Corolla. It is a piece of SH-T. With a 120,000miles, it is practically worn out. I am asked by every ethinic nationality if I want to sell it. "What on earth you do want this piece of crap for" is my reponse. " Oh, they are great cars" is thier response. "To each his own" I say. Dave Y **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From timmurph at fastbytes.com Thu Jun 5 22:13:33 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:13:33 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <001001c8c78b$af91d210$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> In 1997 my daughter and I took a hiking vacation in Glacier National Park in Montana. We both live in Wisconsin. It was a little bit over 4000 miles. Took a lot of side trips on the "back" roads. I had a new 1997 BMW 328is. We averaged 26 MPG for the trip with a low of 23 MPG when we drove back across Montana on Highway 2 cruising at around 120 MPH between towns. No speed limit in Montana then, just "reasonable and prudent" or maybe "proper". Seemed reasonable to me. Passed one trooper going the other way at about 100. High mileage for the trip was the last leg in Wisconsin when I was taking it easy, got 32 MPG then. Car still gets 28 to 30 MPG on the highway, maybe a bit more if I keep my foot out of it. Not bad for a "perfomance" car. Tim Murphy 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging > Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like > 23-25 > mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably > never > pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a > SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense > though. > > My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern > California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of > California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better > gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry > what > ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu Thu Jun 5 22:53:57 2008 From: JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:53:57 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <00c801c8c791$550fe6f0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Joe, I picked up an 06 Malibu LS from my company (employee car) with 60K on it. I did my research first, as I figured the Malibu would be an appliance. It's not. It's based on GM's Epsilon chassis (Saab 9-3, Opel Vectra Pontiac Future? Grand AM & Saturn LS??, etc.) The seats are great, the suspension configuration common across platforms (shocks/springs differ) etc, and my mixed driving keeps the mileage between 29 and 32. Oh, four wheel disk brakes, rear IRS, side air bags, etc. Do some research on GM's Epsilon platform cars. It's no sports car, but I'm impressed with the value. Jack -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:28 AM To: Bill Babcock Cc: Shane Ingate; Friends of Triumph Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Babcock To: Joe Curry Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of Epislon commonality.doc] From fubog1 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 05:17:15 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:17:15 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging 300-400 mpg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA95DE023C3C5A-530-458F@WEBMAIL-DC19.sysops.aol.com> yeah well my trusty old Land Rover gets 300-400 miles per gallon.... of oil... Glen ps- and it will go faster than 45 mph, downhill... -----Original Message----- From: Terry Stetler To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging My daily driver is a 2003 Honda Civic SI hatchback. Two liter twin cam,160 BHP, and the ability to run 130mph, *ahem* or so they say *ahem*. In my daily running around town I get 25mpg, on the highway running 70~75 on the "snooze control" it delivers 35mpg. It's fun to toss around, (for a front wheel driver anyway), and has been reliable as a stone. Does it all on regular gas too. Terry Stetler. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From gaf3 at charter.net Fri Jun 6 06:31:14 2008 From: gaf3 at charter.net (Glenn Franco) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:31:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <48492E12.20201@charter.net> My daily driver is a 1991 Mercedes 300D (285,000 mile diesel), fuel is a bit pricey ($4.75) in Michigan but it gets ~28 around town and 32 on the highway. It loves to cruise above 80 mph but getting there takes forever. When I'm really in a pinch for fuel economy, I drive my 82 VW rabbit pickup diesel that gets routinely 44 mpg around town and can haul (6 ft bed) most of what I need. On the other hand I'm moving my daughter from Michigan to Arizona this summer with our motor home that averages 6 mpg. My fuel bills should generate interesting conversation. Glenn Franco Kas Kastner wrote: > Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 > mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never > pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a > SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. > > My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern > California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of > California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better > gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what > ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as gaf3 at charter.net From spreiss at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 15:39:03 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:39:03 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Group I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the concept of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a major factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, like the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the grand prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of bench engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! Steve P. From JWoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 06:52:29 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:52:29 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:42:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, spreiss at verizon.net writes: Group I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the concept of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a major factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, like the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the grand prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of bench engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! Steve P. This might be interesting as a project for current pro and club level events, but it isn't something we would embrace as vintage racers at vintage events. Vintage racers are "part of the racing community" but our segment, by it's very nature, is not conducive to new concepts. Since this list has both vintage racers and current racers, as well as street car folks, I am only speaking for the vintage racer segment. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Fri Jun 6 07:00:15 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm not an expert in the area, but "index of performance" was a factor in days of yore. Not to be a wise-guy, but it seems that the French used index of performance to make sure that a french team got some mention at Le Mans once or twice in the past. :-) -ducking for cover- rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From spreiss at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 16:21:55 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:21:55 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> With the current state of oil production and global politics, the can has pretty much been opened for us. The question remains, whether we as vintage enthusiasts are willing (able?) to broaden our perspective to include current concerns, or become increasingly limited in our appeal to those outside of our immediate, aging group. The public's initial interest in our cars when they were first introduced to this country was based in large part on their efficiency. Vintage does I agree carry other potent appeals, based in part on nostalgia and historic preservation, but equally on creativity (i.e. how do I make this old crate perform better than someone else can and stay within the rules). In my mind there no need to sacrifice these goals/ideals by introducing an aspect that is of growing concern to all who live on the planet. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig" To: ; Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > I'm with Jack on this......we could open a can of worms > Craig > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:42:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > spreiss at verizon.net writes: > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool > > if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our > > groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. > > Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport > > in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > > > > > > > This might be interesting as a project for current pro and club level > > events, but it isn't something we would embrace as vintage racers at > > vintage events. > > > > Vintage racers are "part of the racing community" but our segment, by > > it's > > very nature, is not conducive to new concepts. > > > > Since this list has both vintage racers and current racers, as well as > > street car folks, I am only speaking for the vintage racer segment. > > > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as wensley_tr at comcast.net From jwoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 07:40:49 2008 From: jwoesvra at aol.com (jwoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:40:49 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <8CA95F2102F864C-1038-50@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com> <<<>>> Certainly a worthy subject. Just not something we (vintage) would be able or willing to mandate, that's all. I have no problem with voluntary experimentation by individuals. However, I think it might have merits at the current club level and even pro level, to promote awareness in new concepts. It could be another way to score enduros at the club level. I don't think you need add-on flow meters. Just have everyone fill their tanks at the start and keep track of how much you put in during the race, and then top up at the end. jw From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 09:08:15 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00011BC3-5E73-42B4-A51F-F4C9345C2B85@bnj.com> Absolutely correct. I'm interested in fuel performance but only in a market sense. What we're watching is largely manipulated fuel cost (not just our friends in the gulf, but lots of speculators everywhere) but it's a good thing in many ways. We're FINALLY seeing some elasticity effects--people are taking action and interest in conserving resources is growing. I always believed (hoped) the market would compensate for increase demand for resources and a shrinking pie. I'm relieved to see it working so powerfully as it always does. Of course there's a lot of goofiness and running off in the wrong directions. But that's human nature. The weak and stupid approaches will die (unless the government gets involved in propping them up) and the world will ultimately be a little better off. On Jun 6, 2008, at 6:00 AM, Robert Lang wrote: > Hi, > > I'm not an expert in the area, but "index of performance" was a > factor in > days of yore. Not to be a wise-guy, but it seems that the French used > index of performance to make sure that a french team got some > mention at > Le Mans once or twice in the past. > > :-) > > -ducking for cover- > > rml > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent > Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! > Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 09:20:30 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:20:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a good example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, we wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet from global warming. Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. On Jun 5, 2008, at 3:21 PM, Steven Preiss wrote: > With the current state of oil production and global politics, the > can has > pretty much been opened for us. The question remains, whether we as > vintage > enthusiasts are willing (able?) to broaden our perspective to include > current concerns, or become increasingly limited in our appeal to > those > outside of our immediate, aging group. The public's initial interest > in our > cars when they were first introduced to this country was based in > large part > on their efficiency. Vintage does I agree carry other potent > appeals, based > in part on nostalgia and historic preservation, but equally on > creativity > (i.e. how do I make this old crate perform better than someone else > can and > stay within the rules). In my mind there no need to sacrifice these > goals/ideals by introducing an aspect that is of growing concern to > all who > live on the planet. > Steve P. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 09:35:11 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:35:11 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: My old 66 Mini 850 got 40-50 mpg back in 1972...drove it to work every day....you could still blow off any chevy for a 100 feet....wish I still had it ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 09:43:31 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:43:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Yeah, Me Too! Not because I think their intensions are not good but because if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would scrap that old car instead of selling it. By selling it, the care remains out there polluting and burning just as much fuel. Plus people who buy old cars typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse polluters. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Steven Preiss" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong > direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would > infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a good > example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, we > wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet > from global warming. > > Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 > MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 09:54:41 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: When we moved to Maryland from California in 2000, we rented a Crown Vic (the TR6 and our '91 Civic SI was a bit small for the trip that included 2 Rotties). I specifically ordered a white CV, and I stuck on an antenna, wore a crisp blue shirt and aviator glasses, and cruised at 90+ mph the whole way. Passed many cruisers going the opposite way and I waved to the nice policemen. They waved back. 28 mpg for the trip. A similar trip in a heavily laden rented Buick LeSabre (speed limits observed) netted 32 mpg. My '91 Civic SI gets 35 mpg in my 30 mile rural commute, but that includes 5 miles of dirt and a 3,000' elevation change each way (I coast to work, but it is an uphill climb on the way home). The elevation of 7,500' does not help my mileage, and it gets pretty breathless up some steep hills. I've been looking at superchargers. The dog hauler (a '99 Taurus wagon) gets 25 mpg on the same commute (no coasting). The turbocharged Duramax gets 18 mpg, and says "what hill?" Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 6 10:30:12 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:30:12 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: Message-ID: Bring back the "Index of Performance"? I can see it now, 40 Crosley Hotshots teetering around Mid Ohio. HEHE!!!!! Terry Stetler. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 10:37:03 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:37:03 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From John.Reed at wilson.com Fri Jun 6 10:39:46 2008 From: John.Reed at wilson.com (John Reed) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:39:46 -0500 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And a few Imps On 6/6/08 11:37 AM, "REK46 at aol.com" wrote: > followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans > > > ************** > Get trade > secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as john.reed at wilson.com Regards, John Reed Global Staff Photographer Creative Services Wilson Sporting Goods Co. 8750 W Bryn Mawr Ave, Chicago, Illinois 60631, USA Tel. + 1.773.714.6895, fax +1.773.714.4585 John.Reed at wilson.com www.wilson.com www.amersports.com This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 11:04:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:04:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean. if you consider the total energy costs of producing a new car, there isn't a sufficient resource saving for that added 10 MPG to justify a new one. If you want to contribute then keep your car much longer, drive less, carpool, maintain your car well, keep your tires properly inflated to the high side. It's trivial, but it's actually positive. Trading your Hyundai for a Prius is a fashion statement. Nothing more. Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But that doesn't mean I can't do math. The media loves this story--it appeals to their smug and monumentally uninformed self-righteousness and it's good copy. I loved all the NASCAR stories about fuel being a big deal for the teams. The stories were ALL written manipulatively, to make it seem like race fuel was the issue. Only if you read past the second paragraph (which any weasel mind-manipulator like me knows 90 percent of the readers won't do) do you discover that they were talking about fuel for the airplanes that they transport the teams with. It's just cynical marketing for event promoters like Nascar to prattle about fuel considerations. Amid 50,000 cars in the parking lot at a typical race, each carrying 1.3 people. Teams flying in with a fleet of Citations or the three Roush 727's, fifty cars driving 500 miles is a fart in a hurricane. You've got to admire the blatant duplicity. This morning on Good Morning they had extensive coverage of the goofballs climbing New York skyscrapers, with all the hosts looking very concerned about copycats and how illegal it all was. Then they announced they were going to have an exclusive interview with the french guy who's climbing...wait for it...to protest global warming. The first copycat weenie had to dream something up on the spot--all he could come up with was "to make people aware of the dangers of malaria". I nearly blew coffee out my nose. What a wonderful world. On Jun 6, 2008, at 8:43 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > Yeah, Me Too! Not because I think their intensions are not good but > because > if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would > scrap that > old car instead of selling it. By selling it, the care remains out > there > polluting and burning just as much fuel. Plus people who buy old cars > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > polluters. > > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Babcock" > To: "Steven Preiss" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > >> Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong >> direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would >> infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a >> good >> example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, >> we >> wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet >> from global warming. >> >> Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 >> MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. > _______________________________________________ From greenman62 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:20:34 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > that doesn't mean I can't do math. If I had to guess you probably don't drive your Ferrari every day. When you do, you drive it for your health... `cos it make you feel good. Now that's real soul food! Greg Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 11:22:42 2008 From: billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:22:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: <667E58DD-CC5A-468D-9CC9-90EA45E42235@bnj.com> Actually it's my daily driver--I don't own a different car. But I ride my motorcycle more than drive--always have. On Jun 6, 2008, at 10:20 AM, wrote: > > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > > that doesn't mean I can't do math. > > If I had to guess you probably don't drive your Ferrari every day. > > When you do, you drive it for your health... `cos it make you feel > good. Now that's real soul food! > > Greg > > Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My > car's just marking its territory... > > > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:57:19 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:57:19 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: Joe Curry wrote: ...if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would scrap that old car instead of selling it. My understanding is that it is far better economics and less taxing on natural resources to keep the old klunker going. Most of the pollution caused by a car during its lifetime (cradle-to-grave) is during its manufacture and disposal, not when it is used on the road. I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than building a Tahoe. What tipped the scales was the manufacturing of the battery. The nickel is mined in the US, processed in Poland, refined in Japan, assembled into the battery in Canada, and then installed into the car in Japan. The nickel travels around the world 3 times. Don't even ask about the cost of disposing of this toxic mess. Prius owners are in for a real shock come time to replace the batteries. Shane Ingate, musing on a slow Friday, in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:07:56 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:07:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: <006001c8c800$3f6fb5e0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Many people routinely trade cars after only 3 years or so (and even sooner). If the trade for a high mileage model falls into that routine, it is a positive, particularly if they can get the old gas guzzler off the road. Having it sent to the used market does not help much but the effect of getting an earth friendly vehicle at a time that you would buy another gas guzzler is a step in the right direction. Doing it just to show your neighbors that you care is pretty pathetic. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Joe Curry" Cc: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean. if you consider > the total energy costs of producing a new car, there isn't a > sufficient resource saving for that added 10 MPG to justify a new one. > If you want to contribute then keep your car much longer, drive less, > carpool, maintain your car well, keep your tires properly inflated to > the high side. It's trivial, but it's actually positive. Trading your > Hyundai for a Prius is a fashion statement. Nothing more. > > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > that doesn't mean I can't do math. > > The media loves this story--it appeals to their smug and monumentally > uninformed self-righteousness and it's good copy. I loved all the > NASCAR stories about fuel being a big deal for the teams. The stories > were ALL written manipulatively, to make it seem like race fuel was > the issue. Only if you read past the second paragraph (which any > weasel mind-manipulator like me knows 90 percent of the readers won't > do) do you discover that they were talking about fuel for the > airplanes that they transport the teams with. > > It's just cynical marketing for event promoters like Nascar to prattle > about fuel considerations. Amid 50,000 cars in the parking lot at a > typical race, each carrying 1.3 people. Teams flying in with a fleet > of Citations or the three Roush 727's, fifty cars driving 500 miles is > a fart in a hurricane. > > You've got to admire the blatant duplicity. This morning on Good > Morning they had extensive coverage of the goofballs climbing New York > skyscrapers, with all the hosts looking very concerned about copycats > and how illegal it all was. Then they announced they were going to > have an exclusive interview with the french guy who's climbing...wait > for it...to protest global warming. > > The first copycat weenie had to dream something up on the spot--all he > could come up with was "to make people aware of the dangers of > malaria". I nearly blew coffee out my nose. > > What a wonderful world. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 6 12:06:59 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:06:59 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Plus people who buy old cars > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > polluters. Thanks for the laugh, Joe ! Randall From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:22:53 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Triumph owners aside! I was talking of the people who never buy new cars because (I can't afford it) and likewise buy a junker and drive it until the wheels fall off without putting any money into maintenance (including oil changes). I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > Plus people who buy old cars > > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > > polluters. > > Thanks for the laugh, Joe ! > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 6 12:32:21 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:32:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke > screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars too old for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on my 59 TR3A. Randall From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 12:37:13 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:37:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: A blathering idiot (me) wrote: > I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource > cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than > building a Tahoe. Sorry. That is incorrect. The statement should read: ..the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is MORE than building a Tahoe. Shane Ingate, better off asleep, in NM. _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:46:14 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:46:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <001901c8c805$99082a60$2d02a8c0@Belkin> We Definitely do here. Most of them have Mexico License plates. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke > > screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. > > Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars too old > for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. > > Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on my 59 > TR3A. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From kaskas at cox.net Fri Jun 6 13:43:06 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <000f01c8c80d$8b299f70$3a16c548@RW> The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of the event. No thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Preiss" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > Group > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > concept > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > major > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > like > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > grand > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > bench > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > Steve P. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 13:58:54 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:58:54 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <000f01c8c80d$8b299f70$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <002901c8c80f$bfb90ee0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I think that most real racing bodies have it right these days. Fuel economy is important and comes into play in the pit stop strategy. That is about the only way to make up positions on many F1 circuits and it is what got Danica her first Indy car win. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel > economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last > three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead > of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on > the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the > other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! > and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just > how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of > the event. No thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From dmitchel at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 6 14:33:52 2008 From: dmitchel at sbcglobal.net (Doug Mitchell) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:33:52 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c80f$bfb90ee0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: I don't have the link here at home, but there was an article in the Wall Street Journal on Monday about BMW using regenerative braking on its F1 cars in 2009. They didn't call it that, but essentially, the charged energy will allow them to use it for up to 6 seconds per lap to increase something like 60 hp. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+dmitchel=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+dmitchel=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 3:59 PM To: Kas Kastner; Steven Preiss; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus I think that most real racing bodies have it right these days. Fuel economy is important and comes into play in the pit stop strategy. That is about the only way to make up positions on many F1 circuits and it is what got Danica her first Indy car win. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel > economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last > three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead > of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on > the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the > other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! > and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just > how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of > the event. No thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as dmitchel at sbcglobal.net From yellow-green at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 6 14:48:51 2008 From: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net (Dennis DeLap) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR Message-ID: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Note: forwarded message attached. X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:31:29 -0500 Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 From: "Gary Nichols" To: "Dennis Delap" Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm From DSPGTi at aol.com Fri Jun 6 17:16:35 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:16:35 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. Audi diesel in the LeMans series. Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel efficient car and we saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 17:51:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:51:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: You won't see them in Oregon either, when you do it's a real shock. I got stopped by a cop because my diesel was emitting too much soot. I thanked him for stopping me, I didn't see it (long way to the back of my F350 crew cab). It was a haywire sensor, easily fixed, but the dealer had to take it through DEQ. On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Randall wrote: >> I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke >> screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. > > Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars > too old > for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. > > Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on > my 59 > TR3A. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 17:58:29 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:58:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: We all understood I suspect. Big debate on the batteries in the hybrid sites. Dealers charge about $8K to replace a pack and generally trash them. The packs can be disassembled and individually cell tested. It's usually NOT a bad battery but corroded connectors. Some folks have them last 150K miles or more, some barely make 50K. In a car that supposed to be a daily commuter that's pretty unacceptable. Plug-in hybrids will get even more interesting. They have a range of about 25 miles before the motor has to run. For most commutes that's pretty good, even if you don't have a place to charge them at work. Seems like a solar panel on the roof could deliver a decent float charge even unplugged. Give the usual duty cycle of a car (1 hour in the morning, idle all day, 1 hour at night) it should be useful. We'll see. Cars are going to get pretty interesting. I'm considering (in a lightweight, goofy fashion) building my TR3 street car as a hybrid. On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Shane Ingate wrote: > A blathering idiot (me) wrote: > >> I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource >> cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than >> building a Tahoe. > > Sorry. That is incorrect. The statement should read: > > ..the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is MORE > than building a Tahoe. > Shane Ingate, better off asleep, in NM. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou > back > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 18:08:53 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:08:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR In-Reply-To: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92ED7529-B94D-488F-8C09-E347B13BA74C@bnj.com> Wow, beautiful work. On Jun 6, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > Note: forwarded message attached. > X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, > 06 > Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 > X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] > Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com > from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) > Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) > (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 > Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 > X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] > Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com > [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with > ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun > 2008 14:31:29 -0500 > Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com > with SMTP id > <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for > ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 > From: "Gary Nichols" > To: "Dennis Delap" > Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 > > http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 18:13:11 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: <93352.46457.qm@web53511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I want to thank JW and the SVRA for not bending the rules to allow the current spec SCCA race cars. As a result the SCCA has rescinded its plan to consolidate which means my car will remain SCCA eligible and possibly competitive for a little while longer. Of course I am kidding about JW and the SVRA. It was good to hear the different perspectives regarding the different options available. Maybe another tub can be prepped for vintage and everything else is removable and can be placed on the new tub. Or maybe a GT6...hmmm. Either way, I am glad I will be with the SCCA for a little while longer at least. I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. From JWoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 18:28:23 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:28:23 EDT Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo of your car. The form is at _www.svra.com_ (http://www.svra.com) . After all that dialogue this week I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We all have our niches that we feel comfortable in. I have nothing but total awe and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis won the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini with rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice burners away. In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can keep doing it. I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage Racers have a nich that we will protect. We are a time capsule and you guys are the cutting edge. We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to party together. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:06:42 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Amen to that!!!! Its like visiting your grand parents. You may have the same last name and look similar but after a while it best to go your separate ways. No offense to grand parents. LOL It was great to see Joe H. win in that Mini. They know how to prep cars. They are clearly a benchmark for race car preparation. I will print the form and get it to you. I have pictures, just check Kas' book (plug for Kas), Spitfire & GT6 Magazine (plug for Howard), Lime Rock Track Record (skippy plug). Seriously, I have plenty. Do you want electronic files or prints? and NO Aaron we do not want the one from NHIS in 2005. ;)))) I lost a contact I told you, I couldn't see. ;))) thanks ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 8:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo of your car. The form is at www.svra.com. After all that dialogue this week I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We all have our niches that we feel comfortable in. I have nothing but total awe and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis won the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini with rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice burners away. In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can keep doing it. I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage Racers have a nich that we will protect. We are a time capsule and you guys are the cutting edge. We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to party together. Jack Woehrle ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From mark at bradakis.com Fri Jun 6 19:26:52 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:26:52 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Quick out of town trip Message-ID: <4849E3DC.40300@bradakis.com> Karen and I will be heading for the airport in a moment, flying into Orange County. Attending a nephew's wedding saturday, flying back home sunday evening. Less than 48 hours with the inlaws, I can handle that! Behave yourselves while I'm away. mjb. From budscars at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 19:24:16 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:24:16 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA References: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c8c83d$34059340$0202a8c0@Bud> By Joe H. do you mean Huffaker? Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Creel" To: ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA > Amen to that!!!! Its like visiting your grand parents. You may have the > same > last name and look similar but after a while it best to go your separate > ways. No offense to grand parents. LOL > > It was great to see Joe H. win in > that Mini. They know how to prep cars. They are clearly a benchmark for > race > car preparation. > > I will print the form and get it to you. I have pictures, > just check Kas' book (plug for Kas), Spitfire & GT6 Magazine (plug for > Howard), Lime Rock Track Record (skippy plug). Seriously, I have plenty. > Do > you want electronic files or prints? > > and NO Aaron we do not want the one > from NHIS in 2005. ;)))) I lost a contact I told you, I couldn't see. > ;))) > > thanks > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > > To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Friday, > June 6, 2008 8:28:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA > > In a > message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > I am interested in entering the WGI event in > September, how > would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by > Triumphs for the > weekend. > > Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo > of your car. The form is at www.svra.com. > > After all that dialogue this week > I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We > all > have our niches that we feel comfortable in. > > I have nothing but total awe > and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in > SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis > won > the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini > with > rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice > burners > away. > > In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can > keep doing it. > > I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage > Racers have a nich that we will protect. > > We are a time capsule and you guys > are the cutting edge. > > We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to > party together. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > ________________________________ > Get trade > secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL > Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 19:47:21 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR References: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <92ED7529-B94D-488F-8C09-E347B13BA74C@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000d01c8c840$6db1f360$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I second that WOW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Dennis DeLap" Cc: "FOT" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR > Wow, beautiful work. > On Jun 6, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > >> Note: forwarded message attached. >> X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, >> 06 >> Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 >> X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] >> Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com >> from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) >> Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) >> (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 >> Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 >> X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] >> Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com >> [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with >> ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun >> 2008 14:31:29 -0500 >> Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com >> with SMTP id >> <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for >> ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 >> From: "Gary Nichols" >> To: "Dennis Delap" >> Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. >> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> X-Priority: 3 >> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 >> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 >> >> http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Babcock & Jenkins > Billb at bnj.com > 503.936.7660 > www.bnj.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From jwoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 19:51:34 2008 From: jwoesvra at aol.com (jwoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:51:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA In-Reply-To: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA96582644C0D3-1400-2965@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> Do you want electronic files or prints? either way is fine. jw From spreiss at verizon.net Fri Jun 6 05:42:44 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:42:44 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: Message-ID: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Guess my true colors have been revealed. My very first car was a 1961 Fiat Abarth 750. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: REK46 at aol.com To: tlizzard at msn.com ; spreiss at verizon.net ; fot at autox.team.net ; JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 22:31:19 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:31:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: I had an 850 Spider when I was on the Enterprise, I met another sailor in the parking lot at Newport News Shipyard one day who was shipping out, had bought ALL the abarth stuff--head, carb and manifold, cam, exhaust, big bore pistons and then his car was stolen. He sold the whole lot to me for ten cents on the dollar. I pulled the engine myself without a lift--just plucked it out like a sewing machine in a trunk. Okay, a pretty heavy sewing machine, but I could carry it. Did all the work in two weekends and had it back running. on the next monday. It was pretty cool. Beaucoup oversteer and you had to be on the powerband to make much happen, but it would eat up most of the LBC's around. I eventually discovered a lot more midrange when I realized the cam was advanced one tooth. I shipped out to Westpac for eight months and my wife (at that time) hated the car. I shoulda kept the car and got rid of the wife. On Jun 6, 2008, at 4:42 AM, Steven Preiss wrote: > Guess my true colors have been revealed. My very first car was a > 1961 Fiat > Abarth 750. > Steve P. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: REK46 at aol.com > To: tlizzard at msn.com ; spreiss at verizon.net ; fot at autox.team.net ; > JWoesvra at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > > followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" > on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From trmarty at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 07:33:06 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:33:06 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spity alignments Message-ID: I am going to try and get my latest project , a 1964 Vintage Race Spitfire into autox mode so that I will have something to run at VTR in Ypsilanti in August since the demise of the TR6. Should be interesting since I believe it has a welded diff and I have yet to drive the car. Wont be in the running for FTD for sure. Hopefully their will be some folks there to give Richard a run :). Any of you forks that run Spitfires have any suggestions as to alignment specs? Marty _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From Herald948 at aol.com Sat Jun 7 08:29:08 2008 From: Herald948 at aol.com (Herald948 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:29:08 EDT Subject: [Fot] Spity alignments Message-ID: In a message dated 6/7/2008 9:33:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, trmarty at hotmail.com writes: I am going to try and get my latest project , a 1964 Vintage Race Spitfire into autox mode so that I will have something to run at VTR in Ypsilanti in August since the demise of the TR6. Should be interesting since I believe it has a welded diff and I have yet to drive the car. Wont be in the running for FTD for sure. Hopefully their will be some folks there to give Richard a run :). Any of you forks that run Spitfires have any suggestions as to alignment specs? ==AM== Hmm....I vaguely remember someone who cleaned up an abandoned-in-a-barn (honest!) GP Spitfire 4, threw some cast-off FF qualifying slicks on it, and eventually went on to take FTD at VTR autocrosses in 1986 and 1989, welded diff. and all! Note that the "and all" included the typical Kastner-recommended race mods and parts, circa 1968 or so, right down to the camber compensator and Konis, and an engine that probably would just about qualify as a hot street engine nowadays. Oh, and a welded 4.55 diff, which I always enjoyed exploiting on the course! It all worked pretty well as a cheap and cheerful autocrosser for many years. Unfortunately for me, various talented members of the infamous TR Gang came along, using a certain monster TR4 and other weapons. ;-) Sure would be nice to see another "Vintage Race" Spitfire 4 out there on the VTR course. I've no alignment suggestions; we never got much further, in our extreme cheapness and casualness, than getting it to track straight without too much scuffing or scalloping of the tires.... --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) The Vintage Triumph Register's Triumph 10, Herald and Sports 6 vehicle consultant _http://www.vtr.org_ (http://www.vtr.org/) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database:_ http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From keithfiles at btinternet.com Sat Jun 7 13:37:20 2008 From: keithfiles at btinternet.com (Keith Files) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:37:20 +0100 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) Dear All, Here is the view from the other side of the pond. Currently diesel is at #5.91 per gallon; that is approx $11 per gallon of which the Government nets around $7 per gallon. The UK Government is getting a massive tax windfall with the rising oil price (not to mention the profits from Brent crude) and they are still thinking about introducing further increases on fuel tax soon!!!! Unleaded is around $10 per gallon. I used to run a 4.7 litre Jeep Grand Cherokee on LPG and Petrol; towing I got 13 mpg and commuting in and out of London 17 mpg at $5 per gallon for LPG that made sense to me (sold it because it blew the head gaskets for the second time in 6 months and the repair costs were horrendous). I run a Land Rover Discovery 3 on diesel now and get 19 mpg towing and 25 mpg commuting (the self levelling air suspension is something else when you are towing). I also run an Audi A4 diesel that gives me 64 mpg on the motorways; I use this car for the long hauls (well long by our standards). I also run a Porsche GT3 on the days when I want some fun; surprisingly even when driven hard still gives 23 mpg and 28mpg when cruising on the motorways or autobahns... Cheers, Keith. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: 07 June 2008 00:17 To: kaskas at cox.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. Audi diesel in the LeMans series. Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel efficient car and we saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as keithfiles at btinternet.com From Billb at bnj.com Sat Jun 7 22:09:57 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:09:57 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) References: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) Message-ID: <034138C3-C18D-47F6-BB15-7B9E5A510443@bnj.com> 'm sure they'll spend the windfall wisely. I've always been surprised at the mileage I get from my 360 Spider. Modern cars do pretty well even when there's 400 ponies under the hood. The wonders of fuel injection and ECUs On Jun 7, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Keith Files wrote: > Dear All, > > Here is the view from the other side of the pond. > > Currently diesel is at #5.91 per gallon; that is approx $11 per > gallon of > which the Government nets around $7 per gallon. The UK Government is > getting > a massive tax windfall with the rising oil price (not to mention the > profits > from Brent crude) and they are still thinking about introducing > further > increases on fuel tax soon!!!! > > Unleaded is around $10 per gallon. > > I used to run a 4.7 litre Jeep Grand Cherokee on LPG and Petrol; > towing I > got 13 mpg and commuting in and out of London 17 mpg at $5 per > gallon for > LPG that made sense to me (sold it because it blew the head gaskets > for the > second time in 6 months and the repair costs were horrendous). > > I run a Land Rover Discovery 3 on diesel now and get 19 mpg towing > and 25 > mpg commuting (the self levelling air suspension is something else > when you > are towing). > > I also run an Audi A4 diesel that gives me 64 mpg on the motorways; > I use > this car for the long hauls (well long by our standards). > > I also run a Porsche GT3 on the days when I want some fun; > surprisingly even > when driven hard still gives 23 mpg and 28mpg when cruising on the > motorways > or autobahns... > > Cheers, Keith. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net] On > Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: 07 June 2008 00:17 > To: kaskas at cox.net; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging > > There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: > > We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. > > Audi diesel in the LeMans series. > > Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. > > I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by > enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel > efficient > car and we > saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > Dave Y. > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking > with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as keithfiles at btinternet.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From m-syork at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 23:16:04 2008 From: m-syork at comcast.net (Mark York) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:16:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Message-ID: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Amici, I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my motor for the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine shop to ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a lightened one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the following: 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. Now here is where it gets a little weird: 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise 5) Install the spark plug / bolt 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact with the bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again contacts the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the spark plug (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does somebody have an easier way? The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. Doesn't this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? Confused in Seattle Mark PS: Thanks in advance From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 8 05:49:18 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 04:49:18 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Message-ID: <182D37CF-B49E-485E-9623-4407AF49EEBE@bnj.com> The piston-stop method is common and accurate for finding TDC. You just have to do it carefully and do it a couple of times to make sure of your results. The bolt shouldn't be welded. What you want to do is beat the guts out of a spark plug and thread the inside to accept a long bolt. Grind a flat on one side of the bolt to release the air (you MUST do this on the compression stroke) and a rounded nose on the side that meets the piston. Get an approximate idea of the length Youl need by bringing the engine to TDC by turning it slowly and feeling when it stops pushing air with your thumb over the spark plug hole and then measuring with a narrow ruler. Set your bolt to a little longer than that and lock it down with a lock nut (on the outside of course). Bring the engine up on compression you start to feel pressure with your thumb, put in the stop in, continue rotation until you feel a solid stop. Mark that point on your balancer. Then rotate backwards until you hit the stop again. Mark the point. TDC is exactly in the middle between those points. It's not 17 degrees--the stopping point is arbitrary and varies with the length of the stop. The key is that BOTH points are the same distance before TDC. This is much more precise than using a degree whell, and in fact is the way you set up a degree wheel even if the head is off. The dead spot when a piston travels over TDC is about three degrees wide. Even with a good dia; indicator the stop method is more accurate. On Jun 7, 2008, at 10:16 PM, Mark York wrote: > Amici, > > I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my > motor for > the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, > crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine > shop to > ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a > lightened > one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the > following: > > 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the > exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) > > 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. > > Now here is where it gets a little weird: > > 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. > > 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise > > 5) Install the spark plug / bolt > > 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact > with the > bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point > > 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again > contacts > the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. > > The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. > > My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the > spark plug > (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does > somebody have an easier way? > > The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. > Doesn't > this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? > > Confused in Seattle > > Mark > > > > PS: Thanks in advance > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From BillDentin at aol.com Sun Jun 8 09:40:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:40:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] Blackhawk Vintage Classic XVI Message-ID: Amici... Those who use 'Track Time' as the ruler for judging a vintage racing event's worth need to visit www.vscda.org and check out the Tentative Schedule for track times at the 16th Annual Blackhawk Vintage Classic. Friday (which can be bought as a half or full day) has five sessions per group. Saturday each race groups has two practice sessions, a qualifying session, and a Sprint Race. The 'bug eyes' also have a 12 Lap Sprite 50th Anniversary Reunion Challenge Series Race. Sunday sees each race group getting a warm up session, a 'Handicapped Race,' and a Feature Race. In addition there is a separate Formula Vee series race and a 'Small Bore Grand Prix.' Not many sanctioning bodies run 'Handicapped Races', because they are involve a lot of busy work, but they've become a tradition at the Blackhawk Vintage Classic. It involves a 'staggered start' based on your best Sprint Race lap times. The fast cars try to catch the slower cars. I was leading last year's handicapped race, only to run out of gas with three turns to go. Shame on me, but running out of gas is another development of 'too much track time.' Look it over. Blackhawk Farms is a premier club track. It has a new owner who has made lots of improvements. Modern rest rooms, hot water, new Tech building, and more. If you are available, this event is a very good deal. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From KENMUN at aol.com Sun Jun 8 14:37:59 2008 From: KENMUN at aol.com (KENMUN at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:37:59 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Sun Jun 8 15:27:34 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:27:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806082127.m58LReqx131521@ns3.geneseo.net> Sure. The overheating problem has an ultimate solution. We've tried the usual list of water wetter, better ducting, better pumps, and all that stuff and never was able to make much of an improvement. The real solution is to convert to an aluminum Ford- or Chevy style radiator. Even full of coolant, it weighs a lot less than a stock copper radiator. And it's cheap! You can get one of these radiators for under $200. It takes replumbing, which is easy, and mounting, which isn't too hard, and a re-do of your ducting. I have to use a thermostat to keep the engine hot enough. This radiator is much wider than the stock one so it presents a bigger area to the incoming air. I don't have pictures on a website, but I'll send you pictures of mine if you want to see how I did it. At 03:37 PM 6/8/2008, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: >fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear >and not many >long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the >temp going up >on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd >come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i >turned the car >off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. >i've got >the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well >sealed so the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening >with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? >thanks for any >comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > >**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as vinttr4 at geneseo.net uncle jack From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 8 17:00:31 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:00:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89C258F3-A964-4824-A9F6-951B2087D57C@bnj.com> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater TR3 made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a radiator made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by the air over the radiator when the car is moving. On Jun 8, 2008, at 1:37 PM, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: > fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the > racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear > and not many > long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the > temp going up > on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f > +) i'd > come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i > turned the car > off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. > i've got > the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well > sealed so the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill > opening > with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, > overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? > thanks for any > comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking > with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 8 17:13:41 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:13:41 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR3 4 PARTS FOR SALE Message-ID: <003201c8c9bd$4c1e5f80$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello Gang...A friend of mine is cleaning house a bit...he has the following for sale..located in contra costa county, california TR4 engine complete with stromberg carbs and performance header 750.00..will run 3 tr3 trannys at 150.00 each.( 1 is dissasembled) lots of TR3 4 starters, generators..cores tr3 brake drums....and rotors.. tr3 water pump housings, etc.. 2 tr3 front nose body pieces lots of TR3 odds and ends Serious offers ok on everything Bud Morris is a very nice elderly Gentleman who has restored tr3s for about 50 years...you can email me, or call Bud at 925 935 5477 Thanks Racer Bud From spiwakd at aol.com Sun Jun 8 17:42:32 2008 From: spiwakd at aol.com (David Spiwak) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:42:32 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101c8c9c1$5284dfd0$f78e9f70$@com> I had that problem with my TR3 years ago, but now my car rarely gets over 180 during a race. You have to trap all the air that is going around your radiator and force it through the radiator. Use aluminum flashing and sheet metal screws or pop rivets. It is more difficult with a large-mouth nose. The small- mouth was easier and more effective. If your oil cooler is blocking the flow, you will have to move it. I used to have the oil cooler mounted on the side of the radiator. At present I don't need a cooler at all. My radiator is stock. I removed the fan and mounted an electric one behind the radiator for use on the grid. You don't need a fan while moving. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 4:38 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spiwakd at aol.com From grandwazoo at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 18:02:04 2008 From: grandwazoo at earthlink.net (Mike Jackson) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:02:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Babcock >Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >To: KENMUN at aol.com >Cc: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater TR3 >made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a radiator >made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >the air over the radiator when the car is moving. > >On Jun 8, 2008, at 1:37 PM, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: > >> fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >> racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear >> and not many >> long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the >> temp going up >> on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f >> +) i'd >> come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i >> turned the car >> off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. >> i've got >> the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well >> sealed so the >> air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill >> opening >> with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >> overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? >> thanks for any >> comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer >> >> >> >> **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking >> with >> Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >> (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? >> &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > >Bill Babcock >Babcock & Jenkins >Billb at bnj.com >503.936.7660 >www.bnj.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as grandwazoo at earthlink.net From grandwazoo at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 18:03:41 2008 From: grandwazoo at earthlink.net (Mike Jackson) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:03:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: <1113837.1212969821127.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> get rid of the fan. Even an electric behind the radiator damages some flow Mike -----Original Message----- >From: David Spiwak >Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:42 PM >To: KENMUN at aol.com, fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >I had that problem with my TR3 years ago, but now my car rarely gets over >180 during a race. You have to trap all the air that is going around your >radiator and force it through the radiator. Use aluminum flashing and sheet >metal screws or pop rivets. It is more difficult with a large-mouth nose. >The small- mouth was easier and more effective. If your oil cooler is >blocking the flow, you will have to move it. I used to have the oil cooler >mounted on the side of the radiator. At present I don't need a cooler at >all. My radiator is stock. I removed the fan and mounted an electric one >behind the radiator for use on the grid. You don't need a fan while moving. > >-----Original Message----- >From: fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net >[mailto:fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of >KENMUN at aol.com >Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 4:38 PM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not >many >long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going >up >on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd >come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the >car >off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've >got >the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so >the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening >with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks >for any >comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > >**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as spiwakd at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as grandwazoo at earthlink.net From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 8 18:31:14 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:31:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] tr3/4 oil filter canister Message-ID: <007301c8c9c8$20571800$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello gang..does anyone have an old tr3/4 oil filter canister? if so, please email Dean Beaupre at dabeaupre at gmail.com Thanks Racer Bud From jhassall at blacksburg.net Sun Jun 8 18:43:10 2008 From: jhassall at blacksburg.net (J.C. Hassall) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 20:43:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] anyone going from South Beach OR to the LA area? Message-ID: <0K26008H97AQUSTO@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Amci, A friend's TR3 engine has been rebuilt in South Beach, Oregon.....it's next to Newport, OR, and it will soon be ready to come home to the LA area. Anyone travelling that route who would be willing to haul it back? If so, pls contact Steve directly at banjonut at verizon.net. TIA jim -- J.C. Hassall Blacksburg VA '63 TR4 in autox preparation 96% finished, 90% to go From mark at bradakis.com Sun Jun 8 21:25:54 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:25:54 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Message-ID: <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> > 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. > > What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 degrees will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the distributor position to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC ready to fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" instead of the number 1 cylinder. In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a cylinder occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. The blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the rock, given a basic, symmetrical cam grind. The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't matter, though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the two marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is halfway between the two. mjb. PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. From charly at mitchelplumbing.com Sun Jun 8 21:52:23 2008 From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly Mitchel) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:52:23 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Message-ID: <8cd17def7ae542588567c508a00e1fc4@mitchelplumbing.com> Mark, I have a tdc tool you screw into the spark plug hole. Charly ---------------------------------------- From: "Mark York" Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:16 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Amici, I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my motor for the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine shop to ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a lightened one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the following: 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. Now here is where it gets a little weird: 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise 5) Install the spark plug / bolt 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact with the bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again contacts the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the spark plug (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does somebody have an easier way? The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. Doesn't this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? Confused in Seattle Mark PS: Thanks in advance Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 03:50:52 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 11:50:52 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had the same trouble in year 2005 when I used copper head gaskets. At full throttle I had blow by at the gasket at cylinder #2 and #3. I have run the engine hundreds of miles on the autobahn at cruising speed with no evidence of blow by but on the track the radiator was emptied within 5 laps. I passed on to steel head gaskets and since then all trouble disappeared and I never had any overheating. I use a simple copper core radiator of the size the TR4a had and that works very fine. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von KENMUN at aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Juni 2008 22:38 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 04:07:31 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:07:31 +0200 Subject: [Fot] WG: cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: BTW the radiator I use is a 2 row one taken out of a Opel Manta. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of DSCN0339.JPG] From jsnook at wcnet.org Mon Jun 9 07:16:14 2008 From: jsnook at wcnet.org (Jeff Snook) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:16:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 References: Message-ID: <005601c8ca32$fe9c70a0$6701a8c0@JeffSnook> I put in an aluminum radiator from Wizard Cooling a couple years ago. Duplicate of the original TR3, but much more efficient. No problems anymore with water temps and I don't run any kind of fan. Now I just have to get the oil temps a little cooler on those hot summer days. Put in a wider oil cooler this winter and it stills runs a little hotter than we would like! Vroom, vroom, Jeff Snook http://www.snooksdreamcars.com ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx To: KENMUN at aol.com ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 I had the same trouble in year 2005 when I used copper head gaskets. At full throttle I had blow by at the gasket at cylinder #2 and #3. I have run the engine hundreds of miles on the autobahn at cruising speed with no evidence of blow by but on the track the radiator was emptied within 5 laps. I passed on to steel head gaskets and since then all trouble disappeared and I never had any overheating. I use a simple copper core radiator of the size the TR4a had and that works very fine. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von KENMUN at aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Juni 2008 22:38 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jsnook_gmi at wcnet.org From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 9 07:34:12 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:34:12 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Message-ID: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack From pvucinic at netspace.net.au Mon Jun 9 08:00:57 2008 From: pvucinic at netspace.net.au (Peter Vucinic) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:00:57 +1000 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: Jack, A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a marginal difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the 'new' Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result of 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the radiators single, double or triple pass? -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack W. Drews Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 9 08:16:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:16:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: In a message dated 06/08/2008 3:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time, KENMUN at aol.com writes: > fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the > racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not > many > long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going > up > on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd > come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the > car > off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've > got > the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so > the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening > with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, > overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks > for any > comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > Sounds like you may have a system that needs to be burped. Sure you don't have an air bubble or bubbles in the system? Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 9 08:37:54 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:37:54 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Mon Jun 9 10:46:30 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <96651.52317.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think one good point that Mike made is the opening of the "hole" in the apron. No matter what media is used for the radiator the stock TR2-3 apron blocks airflow to the lower third of the radiator. On Randy W's car I cut the sheet metal in the apron the width of the radiator and angled it down to allow the air to flow to this lower third. I fabricated triangular metal pieces to fill the ends and spotwelded them in. The only down side is that it does away with having the ability to use a handcrank :o( (that's a joke folks). I'm also surprised nobody has discussed the role that the bypass is playing. Thanks - Ed - Bill Babcock wrote: My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 9 11:21:23 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] TR6 at Devens SCCA Solo National Tour Message-ID: Hi, I ran the SCCA solo NT event this weekend past. That means both as an entrant and as the event co-chair. WHEW, am I tired. The car ran fine, I was a little slow dialing in the new tires (I changed to Hoosier slicks), but wound up with respectable times. At any rate, there's some pix posted on the NER forums... one is: http://www.ner.org/v/solo/2008tour/kc/heat2/IMG_8352.JPG.html There were three Triumphs running, Bob Totten (D Mod Spitfire GT), Dean van de Carr (E Mod TR6 (with V8 grrrrrrrunt) and Bob Lang (F prepared TR6) Lots of fun. On the ride home, one of my truck's calipers stuck on. Lots of smoke, but no fire. Before I removed the wheel, I used the pyrometer to check the temps... the caliper was 400+. Yeow! We're getting new parts on there today. :-) It was sure nice to drive my TRiumph again! rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list at mackenzie.aero Mon Jun 9 12:46:09 2008 From: list at mackenzie.aero (Robert MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:46:09 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 at Devens SCCA Solo National Tour (Robert Lang) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004501c8ca61$15c0e260$4142a720$@aero> >It was sure nice to drive my TRiumph again! >Rml I ran my '62 Spit in the SCCA Southwest Solo Divisional Race #2 over the weekend. The two day event was held at the Cooper Tire test center in Pearsall, TX. (Thanx Cooper Tires!) I had some "issues" with the car and frankly did not drive as well as I could have, nevertheless, I managed to post some decent times on the 2nd day and got second place in GP. With two seconds in two events, I now have a 3 point lead in the Divisional Championship going into next month's event in Houston. Robert MacKenzie 79 Spitfire 1500 (Street) 62 Spitfire Mk1 (Race) Cedar Park, TX From fubog1 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 12:58:10 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:58:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> References: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <8CA9879E5102256-F10-50E@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... Glen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Babcock To: Mike Jackson Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:37 am Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 9 13:32:46 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:32:46 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, fubog1 at aol.com writes: > yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. > It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. > > I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do > AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... > Glen... I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From fubog1 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 13:53:39 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:53:39 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> OK Bill I'll check the next time I look in a mirror, but that ain't very often! Seriously, Mikes normal rev limit is around 6000 rpm, with the standard do-not-exceed 109% rating applied. Now, the un-named driver of a certain WHITE TR-3 is another story. He has to have the recall tach, ha ha! Glen -----Original Message----- From: BillDentin at aol.com To: Fubog1 at aol.com; Billb at bnj.com; grandwazoo at earthlink.net Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, fubog1 at aol.com writes: > yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. > It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. > > I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do > AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... > Glen... I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 9 15:01:04 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:01:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <82AD9699-59B7-4562-AB83-BC459EF18DC2@bnj.com> There's not much useful past 6K anyway, other than just not needing to lift in a long straight. The TR head just won't breathe that fast. I use 6K as a shift point and gear for 6500 as the upper limit based on the longest straights I run. that's a 3.9 rear end for the west coast tracks, but I ran a 3.7 last year to cover tracks I wasn't familiar with. I'm sure a steel crank motor will rev higher with reasonable reliability, but it won't do much. I just think feathering the throttle near the end of a straight is hard on things. My cheater TR3 was 92mm, and the motor was hyper-aggressive in every way except it had a nitrided cast iron crank with radiuses welded and ground in all the stress risers--not steel. The radiator is about twice the size of a TR3. There's no way a TR3 radiator would have managed that motor, even with a different core. Tried it, didn't like it. Peyote has a much milder motor--probably 130HP, was 89 MM, now 87 MM, steel crank, etc.. The radiator is from some odd LBC but its about 1.5 times the area of a TR radiator. If I have cooling problems I know something is wrong. Sometimes blowby, sometimes advance, sometimes an air leak or wrong jetting. I tend to jet my carburetors aggressively to the lean side. Car guys that look at my plugs think my motor is about to blow. Old motorcycle habits. I like a little shade of tan at the base of the insulator after a clean plug chop with new plugs. On a dyno the same jets show dead white but don't blister or toast the electrodes and don't burn anything. I'm very fond of having a lot of cooling margin. I like to be able to adjust the cooling with a thermostat or an orifice rather than hope the car doesn't overheat. On Jun 9, 2008, at 12:53 PM, fubog1 at aol.com wrote: > OK Bill I'll check the next time I look in a mirror, but that ain't > very often! > > Seriously, Mikes normal rev limit is around 6000 rpm, with the > standard do-not-exceed 109% rating applied. > Now, the un-named driver of a certain WHITE TR-3 is another story. > He has to have the recall tach, ha ha! > Glen > > -----Original Message----- > From: BillDentin at aol.com > To: Fubog1 at aol.com; Billb at bnj.com; grandwazoo at earthlink.net > Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com > Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 3:32 pm > Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > > In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, > fubog1 at aol.com writes: > > >> yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. >> It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. >> >> I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should > do >> AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... >> > > Glen... > > I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. > > Bill Dentinger > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& > NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com > > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Mon Jun 9 15:56:24 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:56:24 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: I have the TR4A Wizard radiator. It cools just fine here in Texas, so cool that I have to run a thermostat. The only problem with it is that the upper hose outlet is at the wrong angle. Make sure you ask if he has fixed his design before you buy one for your car. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack W. Drews Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 8:34 AM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 16:18:59 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:18:59 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a row....the first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I tried to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any air flow. Cheers Chris From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 9 16:48:11 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:48:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net><925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> One and maybe the main reason for a larger radiator with more tubes is the total volume of water or coolant contained and that is the important part, Same with oil. ----- Original Message ----- From: "MadMarx" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a > row....the > first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the > following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. > > So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around > useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. > So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I > tried > to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very > flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any > air > flow. > > Cheers > Chris > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 17:04:13 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:04:13 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net><925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: Very true. The best compromise should be a wide radiator with lots of tubes in a line. My radiator has 68 tubes in two rows, which are 10 tubes more than the stock radiator has. Every time I breath the throttle for several seconds the temperature drops about 10 degree C. -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Kas Kastner Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Juni 2008 00:48 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 One and maybe the main reason for a larger radiator with more tubes is the total volume of water or coolant contained and that is the important part, Same with oil. From dtalbott at archrepro.com Mon Jun 9 17:25:59 2008 From: dtalbott at archrepro.com (David Talbott) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:25:59 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this suckin', squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You take that to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 RPM's, and that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to get a feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in on the two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents like ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. DT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J Bradakis" To: Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC >> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >> >> > What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 > degrees > will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the distributor > position > to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC ready to > fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" > instead of > the number 1 cylinder. > > In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a cylinder > occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. The > blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the rock, given > a basic, symmetrical cam grind. > > The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't matter, > though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the two > marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is > halfway between the two. > > mjb. > > PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of > email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 9 18:46:40 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:46:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> Message-ID: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv From spitlist at cox.net Mon Jun 9 18:52:53 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:52:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> I knew that! No, really, I knew that! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas Kastner Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From colordog.1 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 19:27:37 2008 From: colordog.1 at earthlink.net (Steven Belfer) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:27:37 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> what's a dingle arm? ~Steve On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > I knew that! No, really, I knew that! > > Joe C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas > Kastner > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports > > This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most > racers. I > could not keep it any longer. > > http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net From spitlist at cox.net Mon Jun 9 19:31:42 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:31:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000101c8ca99$bcf8fb20$0302a8c0@newcomputer> That's the part where the berries sprout! -----Original Message----- From: Steven Belfer [mailto:colordog.1 at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 6:28 PM To: Joe Curry Cc: 'Kas Kastner'; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Camshafts & ports what's a dingle arm? ~Steve On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > I knew that! No, really, I knew that! > > Joe C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas > Kastner > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports > > This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most > racers. I > could not keep it any longer. > > http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 9 19:32:04 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:32:04 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports Message-ID: <6965FF70.0CF3CC9A.00159EE9@cs.com> Steven Belfer wrote: >what's a dingle arm? it's right in front of the dingle berry. > >~Steve > >On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > >> I knew that! No, really, I knew that! >> >> Joe C. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net >> [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas >> Kastner >> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM >> To: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports >> >> This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most >> racers. I >> could not keep it any longer. >> >> http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 10 06:55:06 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <820724.66800.qm@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There really is a Rockwell Automation division of Rockwell International. At one time Goss International, my employer, was owned by Rockwell International. We used Rockwell Automation to control a newspaper printing press drive line, big stuff like controlling multiple 200 HP DC motors. Our electrical engineers are going to get a real kick out of this. Kas Kastner wrote: This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as sbracing at sbcglobal.net From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 10 07:02:49 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Non FOT - Funny Vid Of Machine Tool Use Message-ID: <42430.48713.qm@web81001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.poetv. com/video. php?vid=34186 Since we are showing fun vids, I thought I would add this one. Those with a machine tool back ground will really enjoy this. From Billb at bnj.com Tue Jun 10 09:32:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:32:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> Message-ID: <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> One of the reasons I always liked two strokes--suck and squeeze happens at the same time, the challenging part is that so do bang and blow. On Jun 9, 2008, at 4:25 PM, David Talbott wrote: > Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this > suckin', > squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You > take that > to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 > RPM's, and > that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to > get a > feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in > on the > two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents > like > ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. > > DT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark J Bradakis" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC > > >>> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >>> >>> >> What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 >> degrees >> will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the >> distributor >> position >> to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC >> ready to >> fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" >> instead of >> the number 1 cylinder. >> >> In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a >> cylinder >> occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. >> The >> blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the >> rock, given >> a basic, symmetrical cam grind. >> >> The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't >> matter, >> though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the >> two >> marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is >> halfway between the two. >> >> mjb. >> >> PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of >> email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From vintage.racer at comcast.net Tue Jun 10 09:55:28 2008 From: vintage.racer at comcast.net (Gary Horstkorta) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000001c8cb12$680fe0a0$382fa1e0$@racer@comcast.net> No wonder those engines sound like they're always screaming! Gary -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+vintage.racer=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+vintage.racer=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:32 AM To: David Talbott Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC One of the reasons I always liked two strokes--suck and squeeze happens at the same time, the challenging part is that so do bang and blow. On Jun 9, 2008, at 4:25 PM, David Talbott wrote: > Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this > suckin', > squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You > take that > to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 > RPM's, and > that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to > get a > feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in > on the > two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents > like > ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. > > DT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark J Bradakis" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC > > >>> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >>> >>> >> What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 >> degrees >> will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the >> distributor >> position >> to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC >> ready to >> fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" >> instead of >> the number 1 cylinder. >> >> In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a >> cylinder >> occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. >> The >> blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the >> rock, given >> a basic, symmetrical cam grind. >> >> The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't >> matter, >> though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the >> two >> marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is >> halfway between the two. >> >> mjb. >> >> PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of >> email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as vintage.racer at comcast.net From timmurph at fastbytes.com Tue Jun 10 21:25:53 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:25:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <003c01c8cb72$db15fa20$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> In the winter of 2007 we worked with Wizard Cooling, Inc. 6149 Powers Road Orchard Park, NY 14127 Telephone 716-662-2392 on an aluminum radiator for our 1961 TR4 race car. We had an original long neck, shortened for the TR4 with the hole in the center for the crank. Even though we had it boiled out it just didn't do the job. I worked with Scott at Wizard Cooling (scott at wizardcooling.com) to design the radiator. It was based on the long neck TR3 radiator they had previously built. We already had the oil cooler and all the mounting and hoses set for the stock radiator so we wanted to keep more or less stock shape and size. It is aluminum and fits the stock mounting. The radiator cap is on a "dropped" ledge so it can clear the hood. It is a little bit thicker than the stock one. It has worked exceptionally well for us. No overheating problems at all. We run about 180 degrees, maybe too cool! Essentially we got the "prototype" and they are now tooled up and have the drawings to make others. It may even be shown on their e-bay store by now. I can send photos of the installation if anyone is interested. I recommend Wizard Cooling and Scott. They did a great job. No commercial interest on my part. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack W. Drews" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From N197TR4 at cs.com Wed Jun 11 08:09:57 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:09:57 EDT Subject: [Fot] Cedar Falls??? now Iowa: The Field of Screams Message-ID: Joe, I know you are pretty close to the floodwater, you guys OK? Henry Frye Triumph Technology Consultants 860.653.3118 (o) - 860.508.3118 (m) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------- Henry, Between tornados and floods we have dodged all bullets. My sister-in-law's house disappeared entirely. Her husband is Parkersburg's Director of Economic Development and gets to start all over again. Some of Iowa is now in Wisconsin. More of it will end up in the Gulf of Mexico Bizarre! But we are high, dry and unmolested. Thanks for asking......and others. See you at Mosport. Joe A From cartravel at pobox.com Wed Jun 11 12:38:34 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:38:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <48501BAA.7090802@pobox.com> Chris, The validity of your reasoning depends on the air flow. If you have enough air flow, you will have less heating of the air as it moves through. I agree though that it is better to have a large frontal area. On my TR3, I tried what everyone else has suggested. Finally, I installed one of the commodity ($150) Chevy radiators. It has about 1 inch clearance on each side. I've run it in 100 degree heat with no problems. I agree with what Bill says. When you have a large safety margin you know something is wrong when you get overheating. When racing, you have enough to worry about, so this eliminates one worry. Larry Young MadMarx wrote: > The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a row....the > first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the > following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. > > So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around > useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. > So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I tried > to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very > flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any air > flow. > > Cheers > Chris > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Wed Jun 11 17:33:02 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:33:02 -0400 Subject: [Fot] No Lbc No free lunch Message-ID: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I took my 1994 Honda Accord ( 50k miles on it ) to Valvoline quickie oil change for a free A/c check. It's not working well. 45 mins later the tec told me it was either a relay or the compressor. While he was working with a meter the car almost stalled out but not quite. He also admitted he did not know which relay was which 10 miles after leaving the shop and with out the A/c on the compressor suddenly kicked in. It felt and sounded like a J brake being engaged. It has settled down some what but still makes a loud noise. So far I am getting a song and a dance from these guy's and no satisfactory explanation. Any info is appreciated thanks rob From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jun 11 17:44:46 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:44:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] No Lbc No free lunch In-Reply-To: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> References: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> Message-ID: <004101c8cc1d$217cbd00$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > 45 mins > later the tec > told me it was either a relay or the compressor. Meaning he couldn't figure out if the clutch was getting juice, or even whether it was engaged or not. My advice : Take it to someone who knows what they are doing. Any reputable A/C shop (many radiator shops also do A/C) should be able to give you a free estimate that is actually worth something. The loud noise doesn't sound good either. Might be a combination of electrical and refrigeration problems. Randall From henry at henryfrye.com Fri Jun 13 05:37:07 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:37:07 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Brad Penn Racing Oil at Mosport Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060013@server.Triumph.local> To those of us going to Mosport next week, I found a place local to me carrying the whole line of Brad Penn racing oils. If anybody wants me to bring them a case or more, contact me off list. Cheers Henry Frye Triumph Technology Consultants 860.653.3118 (o) - 860.508.3118 (m) From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Fri Jun 13 12:44:34 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:44:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed Message-ID: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. Does anyone know of another source? uncle jack From N197TR4 at cs.com Fri Jun 13 13:11:18 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:11:18 EDT Subject: [Fot] trans part needed Message-ID: In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 13 13:26:53 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:26:53 -0400 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005b01c8cd8b$6ffb7d80$4ff27880$@net> Moss has the top hat in stock- . Check w/ Dave Hagenbuch at TRF. He's off today but will be there tomorrow I believe. I used to know what gears one could interchange from one model to others but it went away when the grey hair arrived. It would be great if that information could be reestablished and put somewhere we could all access it. I have a bunch of NOS TR-6 gears but am unsure where else they can go. Anyone have a better memory than I do?? Russ Moore -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of N197TR4 at cs.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 3:11 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rem9 at frontiernet.net From budscars at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 13:47:12 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:47:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed References: Message-ID: <000801c8cd8e$46e14e40$0202a8c0@Bud> try FASPEC in Portland Oregon...Bob Bray.. info at faspec.com Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed > In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, > vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > > >> I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. >> Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I >> got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John >> Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. >> >> Does anyone know of another source? >> >> > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From cartravel at pobox.com Fri Jun 13 17:09:57 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:09:57 -0500 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> I ran into the problem with wrong sized tophat bushings about 5 or 6 years ago. I had to order a couple of bushings from Racestorations at great expense. I pointed the problem out to Moss and thought it had been corrected. I think I've ordered correct ones from US sources since then. Try some of the other sources and ask them to pull one from stock and measure it. Larry Young Jack W. Drews wrote: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com From timmurph at fastbytes.com Fri Jun 13 20:46:54 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:46:54 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Vucinic" To: "'Jack W. Drews'" ; Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Jack, > A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a > marginal > difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over > Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's > Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling > temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are > seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the > 'new' > Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result > of > 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the > radiators single, double or triple pass? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Jack W. Drews > Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au > > __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 13 23:01:29 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:01:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: <20080614050129.JSUV7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an > explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than > copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, > but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Interesting line on that page : "Anyone suggesting you deviate from an original brass copper radiator either doesn't know any better or just wants to sell you what's in stock." I wonder which one applies to Wizard ? Randall From tr4racing at googlemail.com Sat Jun 14 05:02:00 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:02:00 +0200 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: When I look back on my testing with aluminum radiators, most of them have round tubes. Aerodynamic of a round tube is not good compared with a flat tube like most of the copper radiators has. So there is a balance....bad flow through a radiator with big coolant volume in round tubes or less coolant in a copper core with very good heat transfer. I think both will work. Maybe a big aluminum radiator is a way to go. Chris TR 4 #74 -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Tim Murphy Gesendet: Samstag, 14. Juni 2008 04:47 An: Peter Vucinic; 'Jack W. Drews'; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 From dos_gusanos at msn.com Sat Jun 14 05:55:55 2008 From: dos_gusanos at msn.com (dos_gusanos at msn.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 05:55:55 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR4 Block Available Message-ID: Anyone want a TR3-4 engine block? It's in Salt Lake free for the taking or it get's scrapped. Henry Morrison From fubog1 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 07:20:23 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:20:23 -0400 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> References: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: <8CA9C38893A7DC5-620-472C@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com> There are many many variables in radiator design. Dimensions, crossflow vs vertical tube, core thickness, number of tubes, tube size, staggered vs in-line tubes, fin design, fin count... It's a lot more than just aluminum vs copper/brass. Air flow is just as important as the core (heat exchanger). Glen runnin' cool in florida -----Original Message----- From: Tim Murphy To: Peter Vucinic ; 'Jack W. Drews' ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Vucinic" To: "'Jack W. Drews'" ; Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Jack, > A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a > marginal > difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over > Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's > Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling > temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are > seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the > 'new' > Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result > of > 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the > radiators single, double or triple pass? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Jack W. Drews > Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au > > __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From REK46 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 08:40:24 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:40:24 EDT Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Message-ID: Except for a few low volume,old fashioned mfgrs in europe, all OEMS use flat rad tubes that they make themselves from brazing sheet alum and roll-form/welded tubes....This has been since the 80s when they all converted from copper to alum..These rads are Nokolok brazed with the fin ,tube and headers and have far superior heat transfer by design and matls than copper, and no lead or hazards...They can be stacked and lengthend to any size and fin count....Try Griffin Rad, they bought the Ford process and equip and make an excellent and cold rad to any dimension or fittings....except they use alum tanks and welds instead of the OEM plastic and Orings on the headers. I know..I sold 80% of the alum to all the OEMs for 20 yrs ************** Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) From N197TR4 at cs.com Sat Jun 14 09:27:00 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:27:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] Robert Johns TR2 Racer from the early 50s The Glen? Message-ID: FOT, I dont know Robert Johns or of him, but I am in the process of extending an invitation to him at the Glen. Blake Discher of VTR has encountered him at the TRA Convention in Erie at this very moment. I hear from Blake that his credentials include co-driving with Mike Rothschild in Florida in 1957. 12 Hours of Endurance. Mordy, do have knowledge or visibility to Robert Johns? He would make a great addition to our Paddock as he is still actively involved in Triumphs and likel has a wealth of history. Anyone else know him....Kas? Joe Alexander From cwn74 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 21:09:40 2008 From: cwn74 at aol.com (Clark W. Nicholls) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:09:40 -0400 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> References: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001901c8ce95$41926020$1442a8c0@semperon3400> John is at john at quantumechanics.com and johnesposito at earthlink.net His phone is 203-459-9612 Sometimes he's hard to get ahold of... Clark Clark W. Nicholls '72 Stag '74 Spitfire "Reality... It's not what you think." -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+cwn74=aol.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+cwn74=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Larry Young Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:10 PM To: Jack W. Drews Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed I ran into the problem with wrong sized tophat bushings about 5 or 6 years ago. I had to order a couple of bushings from Racestorations at great expense. I pointed the problem out to Moss and thought it had been corrected. I think I've ordered correct ones from US sources since then. Try some of the other sources and ask them to pull one from stock and measure it. Larry Young Jack W. Drews wrote: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I got > from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John Esposito > of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as cwn74 at aol.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 15 12:16:20 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:16:20 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day Message-ID: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> Happy Father's Day gang Racer Bud Spitfire #21 From roadandtrack at bigpond.com Sun Jun 15 19:14:35 2008 From: roadandtrack at bigpond.com (Terry and Cindy) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:14:35 +1000 Subject: [Fot] spitfire & herald gearbox parts new In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080616011434.USWX9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@Rat01> I have a small number of new old stock gearbox gears, hubs etc for the early herald and I think, spitfire gearboxes. I know these are different to later Mk2 onwards boxes as they have smaller syncros. Anyone interested can email me. Thanks, terry From jerrybarr at charter.net Mon Jun 16 07:31:19 2008 From: jerrybarr at charter.net (Jerry Barr) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:31:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Rocker ratio Message-ID: <347A7614-8CFE-461E-B6A0-0E388915421F@charter.net> Good Morning Group, Anyone know the standard rocker ratio for the 1296cc Spitfire engine? Also what ratio roller rockers are being used on this engine. Thanks, Jerry Barr From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 16 08:43:44 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day In-Reply-To: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> References: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, RACER BUD wrote: > Happy Father's Day gang > Racer Bud > Spitfire #21 Do you work for Hallmark? :-) I spent all day working on my children (and my buddy's child), all 73 or 74 TR6s. rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ehusmann53 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 09:07:38 2008 From: ehusmann53 at yahoo.com (Ernest Husmann) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <104577.34719.qm@web57603.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Racer Bud definately does not work for Hallmark.  If he did then you would be able to find cards with Spitfires and other Triumphs gracing the art work. --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Robert Lang <lang at isis.mit.edu> wrote: From: Robert Lang <lang at isis.mit.edu> Subject: Re: [Fot] Happy Father's Day To: "RACER BUD" <budscars at comcast.net> Cc: fot at autox.team.net Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:43 AM On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, RACER BUD wrote: > Happy Father's Day gang > Racer Bud > Spitfire #21 Do you work for Hallmark? :-) I spent all day working on my children (and my buddy's child), all 73 or 74 TR6s. rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ehusmann53 at yahoo.com From trmarty at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 10:25:05 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:25:05 -0400 Subject: [Fot] 1296 Spity leak Message-ID: I have a tired 1296 Spitfire that I am going to try and nurse through a couple of autox's. It has a pretty good oil seepage between the block and head on the drivers side about mid-engine. The engine has quite a bit of blowby going on. It also has a brand new head gasket. Do you think it could be the blowby pressurizing things and pushing the oil out? I do have the block and valve cover vented to bleed off some of the pressure. I am pondering re-replacing the head gasket but I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to do it for two autox's:), especially if it's the blowby causing the seepage and a new head gasket wouldn't fix it. Your thoughts? Oh, head is dead flat and block is pretty flat. Thanks, Marty _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Tue Jun 17 05:16:41 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:16:41 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats Message-ID: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about this one: Why do top hat bushings break? uncle jack From RustyTR4 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 06:41:41 2008 From: RustyTR4 at aol.com (RustyTR4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:41:41 EDT Subject: [Fot] top hats Message-ID: I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From pvucinic at netspace.net.au Tue Jun 17 07:25:29 2008 From: pvucinic at netspace.net.au (Peter Vucinic) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:25:29 +1000 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have a rotational/twisting force/pressure and a thrust/longitudinal pressure all acting on the same piece of bronze/component, all at the same time and/or in any combination at any time. Along with this factor is the lack of a decent internal radius where there thrust portion of the bush meets the journal portion of the bush. This leads to a 'weak' area where these two features meet, and as a result of 'point loading' at this position, the thrust portion of the bush usually 'breaks' away from the bush portion. We'll that's my take on the problem! Kind Regards Peter Vucinic TR-4 WORKS Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of RustyTR4 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 June 2008 10:42 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3193 (20080617) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From fubog1 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 09:09:05 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:09:05 -0400 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9EA3377C775A-BEC-FD8@MBLK-M09.sysops.aol.com> Yes I think all is true & contributes to the failure but the endfloat is the killer. There's a lot of shock thrust load going on in there during on/off throttle, especially when second comes up against third, & the tophat is supported only by contact with the end of the third gear bush. Glen -----Original Message----- From: Peter Vucinic To: RustyTR4 at aol.com; vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 9:25 am Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats You have a rotational/twisting force/pressure and a thrust/longitudinal pressure all acting on the same piece of bronze/component, all at the same time and/or in any combination at any time. Along with this factor is the lack of a decent internal radius where there thrust portion of the bush meets the journal portion of the bush. This leads to a 'weak' area where these two features meet, and as a result of 'point loading' at this position, the thrust portion of the bush usually 'breaks' away from the bush portion. We'll that's my take on the problem! Kind Regards Peter Vucinic TR-4 WORKS Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of RustyTR4 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 June 2008 10:42 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3193 (20080617) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From cartravel at pobox.com Tue Jun 17 11:28:45 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:28:45 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran into the problem with wrong sized bushings. Larry Young > Jack W. Drews wrote: >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about >> this one: >> >> Why do top hat bushings break? >> >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 21:41:46 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:41:46 +1100 Subject: [Fot] top hats References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> This is what John Esposito found in the trans in my TR3/4 when he was swapping out the mainshaft to fit an O.D. unit. He marveled at the resourcefulness of the "adaptation" but advised rebuilding the trans while it was disassembled. (Actually sold me a rebuilt unit from the shelf that has leaked like a sieve since, but that's another story.) Granted, there were other problems he identified that figured into the prognosis, but I'm pretty certain I remember him saying that the seat in the trans case was worn beyond possible use with a standard type of bushing and that the separate thrust washer (made of highly polished steel with grooves cut into the wear face for lubing), would cause further and rapid wear of the case. Steve P.----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Young" To: "FOT" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and > a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran > into the problem with wrong sized bushings. > Larry Young > > Jack W. Drews wrote: > >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about > >> this one: > >> > >> Why do top hat bushings break? > >> > >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Tue Jun 17 12:50:46 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: Steve, That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top hat. With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Preiss Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:42 PM To: Larry Young Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats This is what John Esposito found in the trans in my TR3/4 when he was swapping out the mainshaft to fit an O.D. unit. He marveled at the resourcefulness of the "adaptation" but advised rebuilding the trans while it was disassembled. (Actually sold me a rebuilt unit from the shelf that has leaked like a sieve since, but that's another story.) Granted, there were other problems he identified that figured into the prognosis, but I'm pretty certain I remember him saying that the seat in the trans case was worn beyond possible use with a standard type of bushing and that the separate thrust washer (made of highly polished steel with grooves cut into the wear face for lubing), would cause further and rapid wear of the case. Steve P.----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Young" To: "FOT" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and > a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran > into the problem with wrong sized bushings. > Larry Young > > Jack W. Drews wrote: > >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about > >> this one: > >> > >> Why do top hat bushings break? > >> > >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jun 17 13:06:28 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:06:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top > hat. I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the mainshaft, with the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. > With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through > machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part of the case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial roller) bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so inadequate ? The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of course, the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got to solve that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & thrust washer. Randall From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Tue Jun 17 18:56:23 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Fiberglass Hood & Western Wheels for sale Message-ID: <866FC7B0-D01D-4AE2-A6AD-64BCBBB39B29@xsmail.com> I have a GT6 MkI MkII fiberglass hood for sale. Modified for SU Carb clearance. Mounting hardware fitted I also have 4 western pseudo-minilite wheels, 13x5.5, spitfire/gt6 bolt pattern, 4" backspacing. 3 black, 1 silver finish, the 3 black are mounted with old slicks. I'm offering up here before I put on fleabay this weekend... Photos of both are at the gallery link below. Contact me off-list if interested or have other questions.. Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher 1971 Spit MkIV/1500 RaceCar 1971 TR6 TBD 1976 TR7 Street 1968 GT6 Vintage "I'm so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. Its the excitement only a free man can feel. A free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain" From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Tue Jun 17 20:48:22 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Fot] top hats References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I would like to nominate uncle jack to make a run of new and improved top hats go Celts 41-67 3rd 1/4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats >> That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top >> hat. > > I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the mainshaft, with > the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. > >> With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through >> machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. > > Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part of the > case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial > roller) > bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so > inadequate ? > > The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of course, > the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got to solve > that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & thrust > washer. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From billsohl at optonline.net Tue Jun 17 21:06:26 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:06:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: NJTA 1966 TR-4A IRS FOR SALE Message-ID: FYI to the FOT. This is from my local Triumph club, the New Jersey Triumph Association. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: mewy at comcast.net I have a 1966 TR4A IRS that I need to sell. British Racing Green with Saddle interior. Tires and brakes have 5000 miles on them. Carbs rebuilt in Feb. 08. New stainless exhaust. Bill Dewar has done work on it in the past. Asking $5000.00. Available to be seen at any time. Call 862-219-8848. Thanks, Neil Pembridge From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 22:03:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:03:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> Message-ID: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> We don't need no stinking top hats, it was a bad design when they made them. We need a good thrust bearing, bearing face, and bushing. On Jun 17, 2008, at 7:48 PM, Rob wrote: > I would like to nominate uncle jack to make a run of new and > improved top > hats go Celts 41-67 3rd 1/4 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randall" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > > >>> That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top >>> hat. >> >> I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the >> mainshaft, with >> the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. >> >>> With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through >>> machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. >> >> Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part >> of the >> case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial >> roller) >> bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so >> inadequate ? >> >> The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of >> course, >> the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got >> to solve >> that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & >> thrust >> washer. >> >> Randall >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Tue Jun 17 22:39:26 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:39:26 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000601c8d0fd$4f5c6e20$0302a8c0@newcomputer> -----Original Message----- Bill said: We don't need no stinking top hats, No, all we need are Tams! We ain't gentlemen racers after all! Joe C. From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Wed Jun 18 08:15:53 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:15:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Top hats Message-ID: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Thanks for the responses to the question on the top hat bushing. I asked the question because of the latest rebuild of my transmission, with the usual struggle with the main shaft assembly and setting the end float on the bushings and gears. I've thought about this every time I've rebuilt a box. I don't understand what is happening in the gearbox that caused the designers to use this design bushing. There must be some reason. Several guys responded with the same thought that I had in mind, which is, why not make this assembly from a washer and bushings instead of using the top hat design? Spits don't have top hat bushings, and neither do a host of other cars. Too bad it would be such a time and effort consuming exercise to prove out in real life. I guess converting to one of the current production five speed boxes might have a better cost - benefit ratio. uncle jack From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 00:25:09 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Top hats References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack W. Drews" To: Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:15 AM Subject: [Fot] Top hats > Thanks for the responses to the question on the top hat bushing. > > I asked the question because of the latest rebuild of my > transmission, with the usual struggle with the main shaft assembly > and setting the end float on the bushings and gears. I've thought > about this every time I've rebuilt a box. I don't understand what is > happening in the gearbox that caused the designers to use this design > bushing. There must be some reason. > > Several guys responded with the same thought that I had in mind, > which is, why not make this assembly from a washer and bushings > instead of using the top hat design? Spits don't have top hat > bushings, and neither do a host of other cars. > > Too bad it would be such a time and effort consuming exercise to > prove out in real life. I guess converting to one of the current > production five speed boxes might have a better cost - benefit ratio. > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From fogbro1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 18 20:24:38 2008 From: fogbro1 at comcast.net (Ed Woods) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:24:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Top hats References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> Jack, Has anyone tried the Moss steel top hat bushing? What are the thoughts on using it with the brass 3rd speed bush? Ed From budscars at comcast.net Wed Jun 18 20:32:16 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Fot] MONTEREY HISTORICS Message-ID: <002d01c8d1b4$b13d4440$0702a8c0@Bud> Hi Gang...If any of you are racing in the Monterey Historics at Laguna Seca in August...Please let me know, and I will put the info on My Newsletter,..and..It will be great to meet you at the track! Racer Bud.... From lang at isis.mit.edu Thu Jun 19 08:05:16 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Top hats In-Reply-To: <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Ed Woods wrote: > Jack, > > Has anyone tried the Moss steel top hat bushing? What are the thoughts on > using it with the brass 3rd speed bush? Using steel with brass is a bad idea. If you use the steel 2nd bush, use the steel 3rd bush. The steel 3rd bush is dimensionally identical to the brass. Although I think the yellow parts are bronze, but that's nit-picking. > Ed rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 19 10:52:08 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:52:08 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Top hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <082501c8d22c$d0c478b0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Using steel with brass is a bad idea. Maybe that's why the brass ones don't work so well ? All that steel around them ? Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 19 12:18:47 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:18:47 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <083c01c8d238$eb0453b0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > We don't need no stinking top hats, it was a bad design when they made > them. We need a good thrust bearing, bearing face, and bushing. "Bluto's right ! Psychotic, but right. We gotta take these b...." From Guyots3 at wmconnect.com Thu Jun 19 13:36:53 2008 From: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com (Guyots3 at wmconnect.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:36:53 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fot-request at autox.team.net writes: > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 > From: "Steven Preiss" > Subject: Re: [Fot] Top hats > To: "Jack W. Drews" > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0 at stevenhgi8vu27> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car > ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? > By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be > compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). > Steve P. An interesting point. It came to my attention that when Toyota went into the South African market, they took over the old Standard-Triumph International factory at Durban, and most probably other ex-Triumph factories in different Triumph markets around the world also. I heard that Toyota took care to preserve much of the historic documentation, and engineering papers that they found there, something I doubt would have happened if it had been the other way around. The Japanese were always keen to copy, learn and improve on Western designs, eventually taking over the business. Maybe there is more of our Triumphs in modern Toyotas than we realise? I know it's a Mazda, but you only have to look at the Miata. Regards Lion From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 23:31:48 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:31:48 +1100 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") References: Message-ID: <003001c8d1cd$c5f29750$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Hence the interchangability of the early girling brake calipers used on toyota coronas and Hilux pickup trucks with the 16P and later PB (Metric mounting bolt shank bores) used on the TR250 and 6s? I think the wheel mounting centers are the same on the early corollas and celicas. And while the toyota trannys are much more substantial units i understand that the ratios are nearly the same. Also, the early corona engines were 19XX ccs. And the early Datsun cars and trucks used SUs, albeit with aluminum ohc crossflow heads. Yes, appropriate and improve. It's the way of the world, really. Wouldn't it be swell if Toyota or Nissan would reintroduce the marque? Toyota has yet to go retro, to my knowledge. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com To: fot at autox.team.net Cc: spreiss at verizon.net Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 6:36 AM Subject: "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fot-request at autox.team.net writes: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 From: "Steven Preiss" Subject: Re: [Fot] Top hats To: "Jack W. Drews" Cc: fot at autox.team.net Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0 at stevenhgi8vu27> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). Steve P. An interesting point. It came to my attention that when Toyota went into the South African market, they took over the old Standard-Triumph International factory at Durban, and most probably other ex-Triumph factories in different Triumph markets around the world also. I heard that Toyota took care to preserve much of the historic documentation, and engineering papers that they found there, something I doubt would have happened if it had been the other way around. The Japanese were always keen to copy, learn and improve on Western designs, eventually taking over the business. Maybe there is more of our Triumphs in modern Toyotas than we realise? I know it's a Mazda, but you only have to look at the Miata. Regards Lion From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 19 14:47:05 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:47:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Thu Jun 19 15:05:06 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:05:06 -0500 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 exhaust and tried to replicate that. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From BillDentin at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:13:33 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:13:33 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: In a message dated 06/19/2008 3:47:25 PM Central Daylight Time, DSPGTi at aol.com writes: > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > I think LOTUS too. I think I may have told this story before, but when the MIATAs first came out and became popular, a local club came to 'do touring laps' at a VSCDA ROAD AMERICA event. In a condescending manner, I looked down my nose and asked one of the drivers how he liked driving his 'Jap Sports car.' He was very pleasant and answered, "It's a lot like driving your TRIUMPH, but I don't have to work on it." Bill (Damdinger) ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From fubog1 at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:19:35 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:19:35 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA0694E9C6574-9B8-2E83@MBLK-M13.sysops.aol.com> Yes I remember reading that they tried 40+ exhaust systems, trying to find one that sounded like a "sports car", whatever that may sound like...? Glen -----Original Message----- From: Kramer, Robert To: DSPGTi at aol.com ; Guyots3 at wmconnect.com ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 exhaust and tried to replicate that. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From koblinger at verizon.net Thu Jun 19 15:30:03 2008 From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:30:03 -0700 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> The original Miata was most certainly inspired by the original Lotus Elan. The project leader for the Miata was a guy named Bob Hall, who I knew back in my misspent youth when my friends and I used to race around on a deserted piece of road in the Hollywood Hills called Mulholland Dr. Years later Bob landed a job with Mazda and started lobbying for them to build a modern interpretation of a '60s British sports car. When the project got going and a design team was formed, Bob bought an Elan for the team to use as inspiration. One of the lead designers on the team was Mark Jordan, son of Bob Jordan, head of GM styling. Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Cheers, Kurt BillDentin at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 06/19/2008 3:47:25 PM Central Daylight Time, > DSPGTi at aol.com writes: > > > >> When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other >> than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially >> in >> the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been >> influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, >> >> double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double >> overhead >> >> > > I think LOTUS too. I think I may have told this story before, but when the > MIATAs first came out and became popular, a local club came to 'do touring > laps' at a VSCDA ROAD AMERICA event. In a condescending manner, I looked down my > nose and asked one of the drivers how he liked driving his 'Jap Sports car.' > He was very pleasant and answered, "It's a lot like driving your TRIUMPH, but > I don't have to work on it." > > Bill (Damdinger) > > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as koblinger at verizon.net From tedtsimx at bright.net Thu Jun 19 15:34:48 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:34:48 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485AD0F8.7020601@bright.net> Kramer, Robert wrote: > I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 > exhaust and tried to replicate that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM > To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they > learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. > > Dave Y > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as tedtsimx at bright.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM > Bob, one of my customer's was one of the 3 original Miata design team members. Being a Brit car guy, that is the sound he wanted on the exhaust note. After a bunch of study, they settled on an MGA. Ted -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 19 15:42:46 2008 From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com (Bob) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:42:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485AD2D6.50309@cfl.rr.com> Pretty hard to duplicate the sound of a six cylinder with a 4 cylinder. Kramer, Robert wrote: > I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 > exhaust and tried to replicate that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM > To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they > learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. > > Dave Y > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:53:04 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:53:04 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: They missed the mark on sound. Only the fully prepped F or E Prod cars sound good. The rest just kind of buzzes if you know what I mean. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 19 18:03:21 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain our Club licensing fees Message-ID: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> SCCA, NASA, (name your organization) are down right cheap compared to what F1 drivers now have to pay for their licenses. http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43035 Fernando Alonso has labelled the increased in superlicence fees as "ridiculous" and says the Grand Prix Drivers' Association is discussing its response to the change. Last year drivers had to pay 1,725 (#1,286) plus 456 (#340) per point scored in the previous years championship for the mandatory superlicence, but from this season that figure has risen to 10,000 (#7,452) plus 2,000 (#1,490) per point scored in 2007. FIA president Max Mosley believes the change was necessary so that drivers were making an adequate contribution to funding safety improvements. However GPDA director Alonso has hit out at the extent of the price hike. "I think it is a ridiculous amount," he told reporters in Franace. "We drivers should pay our superlicence at a reasonable price, thats all. "It cannot change by one thousand percent from one year to another." There have been rumours in the Magny-Cours paddock that the drivers are considering strike action - a prospect that Alonso did not rule out. "I think we have not many possibilities, but for sure its one of the things we are talking about in the GPDA," he said. "Maybe we need to do something all together, because as a group we have much more [influence] than one single person." But world champion Kimi Raikkonen believes strike action is unlikely. "Of course its better if its not so expensive and its the same for everybody, but I dont think theres any reason to go on strike and not race," he said. "I dont think thats the right way to go but it would be nice if we could reduce it. "Its never going to happen that all the drivers will strike. "Hopefully there is some nice solution that can be found at some point." Alonso said he is not only pushing for a reduction from 2009, but for the sums already paid this year to be refunded. "We need to find an agreement, for this year as well," he told ITV Sport's Ted Kravitz. "What we paid already for 2008, maybe we need to have a refund or something, because it was something ridiculous. "All the drivers agree about this, so hopefully we can put some efforts into that." Championship leader Robert Kubica added that he was uncomfortable with the fact that drivers who scored fewer points had to pay a lower fee, as drivers' wages did not always match their scoring rate. "Its quite a lot of money, especially if you are scoring points like Lewis (Hamilton) did last year and its your first year in Formula 1," he said. "But another point is that experienced drivers who dont have a quick car are not scoring points, so they dont care because they dont have to pay. "So I think it will be difficult to get all drivers to have the same idea but we are trying to convince the FIA to reduce the cost." Kubica added that he was fully supportive of the FIA's safety initiatives and happy to help fund them, but just wanted to see an equal superlicence price for everyone on the grid. "The FIA is saying that it goes to safety and I agree, safety is very important, so in the end, if the standard of safety can improve, we should pay for it," he said. "My case last year and Heikki Kovalainens (accident) this year in Barcelona show that the FIA is making a great effort and doing a very good job in safety. "But then I dont see the point why some drivers have to pay more and some others not. "In the end, we are all on the same track driving F1 cars." From mark at bradakis.com Thu Jun 19 19:46:22 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:46:22 -0600 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 19 20:39:04 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:39:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> Message-ID: <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Granted. But do the math. $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should have some basis in reality. Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and three test drivers (if not more). Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not cost so much for the teams. Other drivers license costs. Kubica: $136,400 Rosberg: $77,500 Truilli: $40,300 Sutil: $18,600 Nakajima: $15,500 At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than we do! > >Fred Hodgson From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:30:04 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:30:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <04DAA4CE-11E6-4414-BDFF-C6C101412275@bnj.com> And/or a Maserati mistral. I've had WAY too many people ask me if it's a 240Z On Jun 19, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: >> Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. > > Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the > house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. > > mjb. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:41:30 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:41:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Message-ID: <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 19 22:56:30 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:56:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> This extended conversation has failed to consider that the whole F1 environment is several orders of magnitude above what we are all used to dealing with. What seems to be a lot of money to us, is chump change to the teams and individuals in that end of the sport. The top teams are all spending sums that exceed many country's GNP and think nothing of it. For a fine to be meaningful in that environment, it has to be that high. What I find absurd is the constant redefinition of the rules that are supposed to cut costs but end up making the sport more expensive because every couple of years the teams have to start over with totally new designs for critical components. It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:42 PM To: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From tr4racing at googlemail.com Thu Jun 19 23:26:00 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:26:00 +0200 Subject: [Fot] The FIA In-Reply-To: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 20 05:33:22 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:33:22 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: Compare your GT6, 240 Zed, etc... with either an E-Type coupe or an early Ferrari GTO, and then you will have gotten to the starting place. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Bradakis To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 20 05:58:13 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:58:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <000001c8d2cc$ed9ab6c0$c8d02440$@net> Same goes for the rear shot of a 308/328 Ferrari and the C-4 Corvette. Russ Moore -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Terry Stetler Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:33 AM To: fot at autox.team.net; Mark J Bradakis Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Compare your GT6, 240 Zed, etc... with either an E-Type coupe or an early Ferrari GTO, and then you will have gotten to the starting place. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Bradakis To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rem9 at frontiernet.net From kaskas at cox.net Fri Jun 20 07:41:49 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 6:41:49 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> The most expensive thing in ANY kind of racing is CHANGE. ---- Joe Curry wrote: ============= This extended conversation has failed to consider that the whole F1 environment is several orders of magnitude above what we are all used to dealing with. What seems to be a lot of money to us, is chump change to the teams and individuals in that end of the sport. The top teams are all spending sums that exceed many country's GNP and think nothing of it. For a fine to be meaningful in that environment, it has to be that high. What I find absurd is the constant redefinition of the rules that are supposed to cut costs but end up making the sport more expensive because every couple of years the teams have to start over with totally new designs for critical components. It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:42 PM To: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net -- Never be beaten by equipment From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 20 10:58:11 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:58:11 -0400 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> Message-ID: "It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C." It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in excess of $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams are close to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do you think a fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more than that on brake components for one race weekend. I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale however. Terry Stetler From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 20 11:04:23 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:04:23 EDT Subject: [Fot] And we complain... Message-ID: Its just another self pro-liferating professional sport....as long as the public keeps paying and the sheiks keep spending,...who cares ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From billbab at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 11:30:25 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:30:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> Message-ID: <6F808E87-D318-4FB0-9DAD-F61FBFCC1CEF@gmail.com> I actually wasn't reflecting on whether or not the fine was proportional, but on the effect to the fans. When you fine a team 100 million you make it very clear that nothing going on in F1 has any relevance to normal human endeavor. I enjoy F1 tremendously, I Tivo all the races. But I think the governance is strange and arbitrary. I've watched the politics for years, I think the FIA harms the sport continuously. On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Terry Stetler wrote: > "It is truly a rich man's sport. > > Joe C." > > It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in > excess of > $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams > are close > to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do > you think a > fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more > than that on > brake components for one race weekend. > I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale > however. > > Terry Stetler > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Billbab at gmail.com www.kenalu.com www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog From wgrosenbach at juno.com Fri Jun 20 12:15:21 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:15:21 -0600 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... Message-ID: <20080620.121524.3008.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>> "It is truly a rich man's sport. Recall, if you will, when most of our toy cars were new, Formula-1 cars were often transported on open trailers, paddocked in the dirt, using war surplus tents for shade, drivers wore cotton drivers' suits, and $10 steering wheels. Money & Power corrupt. Times change. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Beauty Advice Just Got a Makeover Read reviews about the beauty products you have always wanted to try http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7UzvJ42ecbOQ9bGrLel7QQigYt0IivJKSBUaweoPtkVsIZM/ From timmurph at fastbytes.com Fri Jun 20 12:19:22 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:19:22 -0500 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> <6F808E87-D318-4FB0-9DAD-F61FBFCC1CEF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002901c8d302$2af42da0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Couldn't agree more with your assesment of the FIA's "contribution" to the sport. I enjoy the F1 races also, finally got satellite TV so I could record them myself. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Terry Stetler" Cc: ; "FOT Triumph" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... >I actually wasn't reflecting on whether or not the fine was > proportional, but on the effect to the fans. When you fine a team 100 > million you make it very clear that nothing going on in F1 has any > relevance to normal human endeavor. > > I enjoy F1 tremendously, I Tivo all the races. But I think the > governance is strange and arbitrary. I've watched the politics for > years, I think the FIA harms the sport continuously. > > On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Terry Stetler wrote: > >> "It is truly a rich man's sport. >> >> Joe C." >> >> It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in >> excess of >> $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams >> are close >> to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do >> you think a >> fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more >> than that on >> brake components for one race weekend. >> I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale >> however. >> >> Terry Stetler >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Billbab at gmail.com > www.kenalu.com > www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 20 12:20:13 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:20:13 -0600 Subject: [Fot] The FIA References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New Haven Ct. area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. Does any one Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " GROUP 44 APPROVED " Any one know what the history on that may mean Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: [Fot] The FIA The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 20 12:29:36 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:29:36 -0600 Subject: [Fot] The FIA References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Swope To: fot at autox.team.net ; MadMarx Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] The FIA I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New Haven Ct. area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. Does any one Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " GROUP 44 APPROVED " Any one know what the history on that may mean Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com> (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx> To: fot at autox.team.net> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: [Fot] The FIA The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net ing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com>; fot at autox.team.net> Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html> Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot stinfo/fot> You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com> _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From Lunkercars at earthlink.net Fri Jun 20 16:59:27 2008 From: Lunkercars at earthlink.net (Greg "Lunker" Hilyer) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:59:27 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Info anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: This is the white w/green TR4 #06 that I mentioned a few weeks ago when I introduced Bill for nomination. Bill- what # was the car when it was orange/yellow? Also, I've attached a comment from Jerry Van Vlack [see below] that may pertain to your car. Greg "Lunker" Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM Greg, for what it's worth I last saw an ex Group 44 TR-4 at Watkins Glen in 1971 or 1972. It may well have been owned by a guy from Conn, although I thought he was from Philadelphia. I am racking my brain to remember his name and if you have a log book from those years and can get me a name I'm sure I will remember his name. I know that car was an ex Group 44 car as I spent some time with the owner and looked the car all over. At the time I was a crew for a low budget TR4 racer out of Pittsburgh and I was amazed at what Group 44 had done to that car. It was fast and well driven. We had a spectacular engine explosion and spent the balance of the weekend at the local Wineries. The weekend was combined with a Trans-Am or Can Am event. Good times. Jerry Van Vlack I remember his name..........it was David Manners, is that a previous owner of your car? If yes then it is a previous Group 44 car. At least it's the one I saw. JVV On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bill Swope wrote: > I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New > Haven Ct. > area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. > Does any one > Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " > GROUP 44 > APPROVED " > Any one know what the history on that may mean > Wm. (Bill) Swope > dba C ME GO Racing > 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW > Los Ranchos, N M 87107 > bswope959 at msn.com > (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MadMarx > To: fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM > Subject: [Fot] The FIA > Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 From jaboruch at netzero.net Fri Jun 20 17:39:32 2008 From: jaboruch at netzero.net (Joe Boruch) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:39:32 GMT Subject: [Fot] Info anyone? Message-ID: <20080620.193932.1947.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com> If this is the car that I am thinking of, it was one of Bob Kilpatrick's cars, but it was usually raced by one of his crew. They raced it with the SCCA with the Volvo Historic Series, which is now known as the HRG (Historic Racing Group of the SCCA in the Northeast Division). As I reacall, they never had much success in getting the car to complete a race. Last I saw it, it was at NHIS and had lots of metal shavings in the oil. I offered to build them an engine that would stay together, but they did not like my price. I heard that they sold it to someone out west (Colorado?). Apparently the car had raced at some point in the 70's in the NE. I saw it for sale at the Lime Rock Vintage festival, which I believe is where Bob bought it from. Bob now lives in Florida and last I heard he is still racing his MGB down there. Joe(B) -- "Greg \"Lunker\" Hilyer" wrote: This is the white w/green TR4 #06 that I mentioned a few weeks ago when I introduced Bill for nomination. Bill- what # was the car when it was orange/yellow? Also, I've attached a comment from Jerry Van Vlack [see below] that may pertain to your car. Greg "Lunker" Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM Greg, for what it's worth I last saw an ex Group 44 TR-4 at Watkins Glen in 1971 or 1972. It may well have been owned by a guy from Conn, although I thought he was from Philadelphia. I am racking my brain to remember his name and if you have a log book from those years and can get me a name I'm sure I will remember his name. I know that car was an ex Group 44 car as I spent some time with the owner and looked the car all over. At the time I was a crew for a low budget TR4 racer out of Pittsburgh and I was amazed at what Group 44 had done to that car. It was fast and well driven. We had a spectacular engine explosion and spent the balance of the weekend at the local Wineries. The weekend was combined with a Trans-Am or Can Am event. Good times. Jerry Van Vlack I remember his name..........it was David Manners, is that a previous owner of your car? If yes then it is a previous Group 44 car. At least it's the one I saw. JVV On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bill Swope wrote: > I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New > Haven Ct. > area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. > Does any one > Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " > GROUP 44 > APPROVED " > Any one know what the history on that may mean > Wm. (Bill) Swope > dba C ME GO Racing > 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW > Los Ranchos, N M 87107 > bswope959 at msn.com > (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MadMarx > To: fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM > Subject: [Fot] The FIA > Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaboruch at netzero.net ____________________________________________________________ Scan, remove and block Spyware. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2231/fc/Ioyw6ijlZvPV30KrXYejPE5my9DGbg 2x6fkITnFNUEfIkDDCV4XYHw/ From Gt6steve at aol.com Fri Jun 20 20:16:57 2008 From: Gt6steve at aol.com (Gt6steve at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:16:57 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mitchell camber gauge Message-ID: Amici, Can you point me to instructions for using the Wayne Mitchell Camber gauge I just acquired? I'm looking at it, I know what it does and how to use it but I'm totally brain dead on it?? WTF? I am so involved in devolving the plant these days that my racing brain is put away somewhere... **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From Group44TR7 at aol.com Sat Jun 21 06:49:16 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:49:16 EDT Subject: [Fot] Canadian Triumph Championships Message-ID: Amici Does anyone have a compilation of championships that have been won by Triumphs in Canada? This poster implies that Triumph TR7 won a national championship in Canada. Triumph's TR8 won at least one other national championship there (Cam Champion). _http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ33024 4939299QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem_ (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330244939299Q QihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Those of you who saw Pete Wilson's TR8 at the 50th anniversary were actua lly looking at the Canadian GT1 Championship car of Cam Champion. Cary **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From macdonaldp at rogers.com Sat Jun 21 08:30:09 2008 From: macdonaldp at rogers.com (Paul MacDonald) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:30:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Canadian Championship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have a compilation, but that is me bidding on the poster... Paul MacDonald Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:49:16 EDT From: Group44TR7 at aol.com Subject: [Fot] Canadian Triumph Championships To: fot at autox.team.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Amici Does anyone have a compilation of championships that have been won by Triumphs in Canada? This poster implies that Triumph TR7 won a national championship in Canada. Triumph's TR8 won at least one other national championship there (Cam Champion). _http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330 24 4939299QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem_ (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330 244939299Q QihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Those of you who saw Pete Wilson's TR8 at the 50th anniversary were actua lly looking at the Canadian GT1 Championship car of Cam Champion. Cary *********************************** From trmarty at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 14:29:30 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:29:30 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spity Diff rear bushings Message-ID: Pulled the differential out of the Spitfire today to replace the mounting bushings. Crap, what a job. The only way I was able to get one out was to cut through the side of the sleeve. I put the replacement back in and did my best work throughly butchering the crap out of it. before I move on to the second one , whats the preferred method of replacing these buggers? I put the bushing in the freezer and heated the diff with a torch trying to gain a little room but it still pretty much laughed at me an my BFH. By the looks of the fresh paint on this differential possibly it was rebuilt in the somewhat recent past but the old, probably 40 year old bushing were left in. Now I understand why. Somebody give me some advice before the neighbors call the police about all the swearing coming from the garage. Thanks, Marty _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From jmwagner at greenheart.com Sat Jun 21 20:59:44 2008 From: jmwagner at greenheart.com (Justin Wagner) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:59:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] [Fwd: Justin: "Remembernig the Fallen"] Message-ID: <485DC020.8000006@greenheart.com> Not Triumph related.... Powerful video.... --Justin Remembering the Fallen http://www.militarytimes.com/hancock From trmarty at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 06:40:20 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:40:20 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spitty Diff Bushings now in In-Reply-To: <000d01c8d3e1$c38a1d10$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <000d01c8d3e1$c38a1d10$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: Thanks for all the replies. Second one went MUCH better. In case you decide to replace these and haven't done this before here is what ended up working. On the removal the trick is to cut through the side wall of the sleeve to allow it to collapse and then can be pushed out. I used a dremel to cut the sleeve but others suggested using a hack saw blade. Oh, you have to remove the rubber first to get to the sleeve. It was suggested to burn it out but mine was so deteriorated I was able to dig it out with a screwdriver. For the install I machined up a plug just slightly smaller than the OD of the new sleeve and relieved the face of the plug slightly to clear the inner sleeve of the new bushing. I then used a vice to press the new bushing in using this plug as a guide. The plug probably did not need to be made smaller than the OD of the sleeve but the original intent was to use it to push the old bushing out, that was before I fount out I needed to cut he wall of the old sleeve. Once cut I didn't need the plug to push it out. Now that new ones are in I wonder if in place of the stock style rubber lined bushings I could have machined up a set of delrin bushings with a steel sleeve in the center and used them instead. Marty _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From S.Janzen at comcast.net Sun Jun 22 11:31:13 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:31:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen FOT Shirts and Baseball Caps- time to order! Message-ID: <000e01c8d48d$c51516b0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> You might remember I took a poll on this subject a few weeks back. As a result, we're going to offer the three most popular choices - a long sleeve denim shirt with a Triumph shield/laurel/Kastner Cup logo embroidered on the left front Baseball cap (blue or khaki) with the same logo Printed tee shirt with a terrific all Triumph race graphic designed by Greg Petrolati on the back, and the FOT logo you are all familiar with and the words Kastner Cup 2008 below it, on the left front. Go to the link below and view "photo album" to see the embroidered logos, the shirt and cap and the tee shirt design. At this point, I need you to tell me how many of each of these you want and the size. Just send me an email. We need all orders by July 1. Ted Shumacher is graciously offering to handle credit card processing and will bring all the items to the Glen for pre-paid pick-up. If you do not plan to be at the Glen, shipping is extra. Once we have orders, Ted and I will figure out how to collect credit card info, checks, etc and get back to you once we have the orders. Long Sleeve button down denim shirts in blue or khaki, button down collar, breast pocket, embroidery above pocket. S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $30 +1 for every X above XL. An XL is a 17 -17 1/2 neck size, so these are good sized shirts Baseball caps - hgh quality Adams cap, one size fits all, khaki color, $16 Tee shirts, light gray background, S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $19, plus $1 for every X above XL http://www.freewebs.com/sjanzen/index.htm From henry at henryfrye.com Mon Jun 23 09:12:04 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:12:04 -0400 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. Our paddock was anchored at it's usual location inside turn one, and under our tents we had the cars of Keith Files, Tony Drews, Mark Wheatley and me. Friday's three sessions went off with one hitch, on the final session Keith's car dropped out with a seized engine. Looks like another victim of the oil pump drive shaft tang shearing. The plan was hatched to get the car back in form for the Glen in September. Saturday morning we had a qualifying session to determine grid position for the afternoon qualifying race. Tony qualified 10th, Mark 11th, and I was 13th. We were a few tenths apart. On the warm up lap the rain started. Kind of light at first, but by the time the green flag fell it was quite wet. I delighted to watch Mark work his racecraft and pick and wiggle his way to round turn one in second place! Tony was in the inside lane and was held up with nowhere to go. As we slid around with all the Minis and Mustangs and a Corvette and even a 1962 Galaxie 500 I got increasing uneasy, and on our second tear up the back straight a microburst of heavy rain hit. I had enough and came in, Mark finished 5th, while Tony worked his way up to 8th. On Sunday morning's race we saw Tony Drews run a 144.9, Mark Wheatley turn a 1:44.8, and I ran a 1:44.6. OK, in the column that really counts, Tony came in 6th overall, Mark finished 8th, and I came in 14th. I had a hoot running through traffic while our boys out front battled for bragging rights. Mike and Sandy Jackson pulled the Trailer of Templeton Formula Vees, and Mike piloted the Shadowfax while hired gun Dick Ryan ran the freshly restored Ringwraith. The Ringwraith looks great, congrats on a job well done, Mike! Bud Babcock was there in his gorgeous TR3, and Ivan Ivanyshyn piloted the ex-Dave Herd Spitfire. Matt Molson ran his TR6 as well. Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the highlight of my season. From tedtsimx at bright.net Mon Jun 23 09:46:28 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:46:28 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to reach Ed Barnard Message-ID: <485FC554.9020103@bright.net> Ed, please call me back.. Phone Ihave for you does not work. Sorry to bomb list with this. Thanks, Ted -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From tony at tonydrews.com Mon Jun 23 20:26:32 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:26:32 -0500 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport In-Reply-To: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.loca l> References: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> Message-ID: <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> I've got to echo Henry's comments on this track and the hospitality. I drove the track back in 2002 and the memory faded. I remembered it being fun, but when I went out for the first session, on about lap 2 I was thinking "NOW I remember what I love about this track!". It's one of those tracks that uses the natural terrain to its advantage. There are a number of high speed sweepers where you get to test your bravery, some of them with blind entrances. I found myself hooting to myself inside my helmet on particularly good runs through turn 2. The format is great, 3 untimed practices on Friday to figure out the track (or re-learn it), a qualifying session Saturday, a race on Saturday and two races on Sunday. Prior race FINISHING ORDER (not lap time) sets position for next race, making that awesome pass in an earlier race worth something (good job, Mark!). We had about 60 cars in our group, so getting through traffic quickly was a significant part of the racecraft. Frickin awesome. No matter what your speed, you've got someone to race with. They did have 110 leaded at the track as well. While it's starting to get uncomfortably warm in the midwest, the weather there was low 70's. They did have a few showers roll through, but they quickly dissipated. I remember it doing that in 2002, and suspect that is the norm. Border crossings were non-events, other than there being a little bit of a wait to get to the head of the line at the border stations. For 2009, you will need a passport to get back into the US, though. $65 at the local post office and 3 to 4 weeks later I had mine. They even took the picture. They have plenty of workers, all enthusiastic, clapping and waving at the end of the sessions. It was one of those weekends that I didn't want to see end. If I can afford the time off and the tow next year, I'll certainly be back. It would be fun to see more of the FOT there, and I'm sure you wouldn't regret choosing to go. - Tony Drews At 10:12 AM 6/23/2008, Henry Frye wrote: >The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. > > >Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That >combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible >enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are >extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the >highlight of my season. >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as tony at tonydrews.com From lfritz82 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 21:10:34 2008 From: lfritz82 at hotmail.com (Lorne Fritz) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:10:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I have a customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to suggest upping the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put on headers, but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit.(any good ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've heard of some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit from someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. housings. Has anybody used this set up and how does it work? Thanks in advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca shback From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:14:14 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:14:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport In-Reply-To: <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> References: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <48D9ED79-A613-407F-BF25-9864D6CA1919@bnj.com> I have no idea how the memory of Mosport could fade. To drive fast there you have to grow a third testicle, though that's probably different for the ladies. After every session I sat in my car for a long time, just thinking. I''m not even certain what I was thinking about--but I know I didn't just jump out of the car and say "boy, that was fun" as I usually do. On Jun 23, 2008, at 7:26 PM, Tony Drews wrote: > I've got to echo Henry's comments on this track and the > hospitality. I drove the track back in 2002 and the memory faded. I > remembered it being fun, but when I went out for the first session, > on about lap 2 I was thinking "NOW I remember what I love about this > track!". It's one of those tracks that uses the natural terrain to > its advantage. There are a number of high speed sweepers where you > get to test your bravery, some of them with blind entrances. I found > myself hooting to myself inside my helmet on particularly good runs > through turn 2. The format is great, 3 untimed practices on Friday > to figure out the track (or re-learn it), a qualifying session > Saturday, a race on Saturday and two races on Sunday. Prior race > FINISHING ORDER (not lap time) sets position for next race, making > that awesome pass in an earlier race worth something (good job, > Mark!). We had about 60 cars in our group, so getting through > traffic quickly was a significant part of the racecraft. Frickin > awesome. No matter what your speed, you've got someone to race with. > > They did have 110 leaded at the track as well. > > While it's starting to get uncomfortably warm in the midwest, the > weather there was low 70's. They did have a few showers roll > through, but they quickly dissipated. I remember it doing that in > 2002, and suspect that is the norm. From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:27:25 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only route to more horsepower without increasing compression or displacement is flow. Changing the carb won't necessarily do that unless something else is done that turns the cab into a bottleneck. the easiest route that will probably deliver enough new grunt to be felt in the seat of the pants (ten percent) is a little cleanup to the head. Match the ports to the intake manifold, clean up the transitions. Stage two is a serious head porting job, bigger intake valves, and consider a carb change. Stage three it's cam and exhaust header. Once you've done all that if you still need more you're into compression and extreme mods and you probably don't want to go there. You can get some good horsepower by blueprinting the motor, but you'd probably increase compression slightly when you do that, and you'd probably do a cam as well. It's also pretty expensive. I tracked my hours on the motor I built for the All Aluminum tour, which was not a highly modified lump--it ran two years of racing without a murmur and probably would have run a third, but I had Tony Garmy freshen it up anyway. Just good parts, good machining and very clean and careful assembly. It was a little over 200 hours--$10,000 at fifty bucks an hour. Of course you could just fit a supercharger. There's some good kits now. I don't know if there's a TR6 one yet, but that would work well. On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Lorne Fritz wrote: > Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I > have a > customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to > suggest upping > the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put > on headers, > but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit. > (any good > ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've > heard of > some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit > from > someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. > housings. Has > anybody used this set up and how does it work? > Thanks in > advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:37:00 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:37:00 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F3A0D79-07D1-4EC1-8D69-09FA28C29DC5@bnj.com> Oh, and water injection works great with supercharged cars so you don't really have to go with higher octane. I don't know why that isn't used more. I suspect there will be interest in it again soon-- especially water/ethanol injection. On Jun 23, 2008, at 9:27 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > The only route to more horsepower without increasing compression or > displacement is flow. Changing the carb won't necessarily do that > unless something else is done that turns the cab into a bottleneck. From GSFuqua1 at aol.com Mon Jun 23 23:10:11 2008 From: GSFuqua1 at aol.com (GSFuqua1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:10:11 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: Moss has a very nice Supercharger kit for the TR 6. Virtually all bolt on. THAT will give you a kick in the pants but you don't want to put that on a weak motor. Doesn't have to be a fresh rebuild but should be good and solid. The Throttle Body Kit is also excellent but as was pointed out if you put more in you need to handle it properly and then get it out. A good head job...Hey wait...back to the engine will clean things out nicely. Then you can go with the headers. No reason not to go with a decent street cam for a little punch as well. Once you have the horses you need to get them to the ground so make sure your clutch system and the rest of the drive train (U-joints, etc.) are up to the task. Also make sure you differential mounts are solid. Nothing quite as exciting as thinking you are going to lay down a little black only to have it go clunk. Just some thoughts for you to consider. I would not rule out Richard Goods Triple Strombergs with his cool air set up and the nice aluminum shroud. Works get on my car. Happy hunting and the check book lubed up REAL nice cause it ain't cheap. Cheers, Gary Fuqua Classic Sports Car Branson, MO Ps,,,If you decide to go the Supercharger route I have one for the late model TR 6 that I might be able to make you a deal on. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From mark at bradakis.com Mon Jun 23 23:42:22 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:42:22 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4860893E.4050401@bradakis.com> What year TR6 is this? If it has the wimpy 7.whatever compression ratio, going to 9 or 9.5 will be a big help without requiring frequent trips to specialty places for race gas. mjb. From BillDentin at aol.com Tue Jun 24 09:00:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:00:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: In a message dated 06/23/2008 11:14:43 PM Central Daylight Time, billbab at gmail.com writes: > I have no idea how the memory of Mosport could fade. To drive fast > there you have to grow a third testicle, though that's probably > different for the ladies. After every session I sat in my car for a > long time, just thinking. I''m not even certain what I was thinking > about--but I know I didn't just jump out of the car and say "boy, that > was fun" as I usually do. > Yeah...for ladies, don't they call them gonads? MOSPORT Turn TWO is arguably the toughest turn in Road Racing. Blind, double apex, down hill, off camber, etc. It sure gets my vote. I sure never got it right. Of course it is a left hander, I tend to make Tony Drews look slender, and I was in a right hand drive car. I thought I was going to roll over every lap. Kas made several suggestions as to what I was doing wrong, but either I didn't understand, or I was too worried about rolling over. But I sure want to go back some time and try to get it right. Having said that, our TRs sure like that up hill back straight coming out of the Stirling Moss corner. It suits that old tractor engine just fine. MOSPORT is a great track. Sadly, last week end's MOSPORT event saw a rare vintage racing fatality late Sunday morning, when Dino Crescentini's Wolf CanAm car had a suspected equipment failure on that up hill back straight. His car went airborne, came down on its top, and rolled more times than they could count. All racing, even vintage racing, is dangerous. It is important to think about that when worrying about picking up another 10th in a sport where LAST pays the same as FIRST. Bill Dentinger ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From kaskas at cox.net Tue Jun 24 09:14:22 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:14:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades References: Message-ID: I think you should have long talk about a short subject with your customer. Recognizing that compression is by far the easiest way to power increases as it starts with rev one and goes right on until you run out of rev bravery. My point is that the COST of doing something such as supercharging or adding fuel injection will cost probably a couple thousand dollars at a minimum. Figure hi octane gas will cost about 20 cents per gallon over regular. Unless you are driving this TR-6 on a long commute EVERYDAY it will take years of gas cost savings to ever make up the initial cost of the injection or supercharging. And, by the way you are not going to get away with regular fuel with a supercharger either. I designed and manufactured turbo kits for years in my private company ( Arkay Inc.) and even with PREMIUM gas we had to add water injection to every kit . You can mill the head enough to bring it to 9.5 compression, add a small street short overlap camshaft, headers and the S.U. carbs or a triple manifold from "GoodParts" and headers and you'll have really nice performing car on the road and reliable. After the head mill and valve grind and headers you can add the other parts as time passes and you have more funds. The compression will be felt when you leave the garage. Just as an added feature the increase in compression will IMPROVE the mileage. -------------- From: "Lorne Fritz" Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:10 PM To: Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades > Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I have a > customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to suggest > upping > the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put on > headers, > but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit.(any good > ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've heard > of > some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit from > someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. housings. > Has > anybody used this set up and how does it work? Thanks in > advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 09:38:18 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:38:18 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. On Jun 24, 2008, at 8:14 AM, Kas Kastner wrote: > I think you should have long talk about a short subject with your > customer. > Recognizing that compression is by far the easiest way to power > increases as > it starts with rev one and goes right on until you run out of rev > bravery. > > My point is that the COST of doing something such as supercharging > or adding > fuel injection will cost probably a couple thousand dollars at a > minimum. > Figure hi octane gas will cost about 20 cents per gallon over regular. > Unless you are driving this TR-6 on a long commute EVERYDAY it will > take > years of gas cost savings to ever make up the initial cost of the > injection > or supercharging. And, by the way you are not going to get away with > regular > fuel with a supercharger either. I designed and manufactured turbo > kits for > years in my private company ( Arkay Inc.) and even with PREMIUM gas > we had > to add water injection to every kit . > > You can mill the head enough to bring it to 9.5 compression, add a > small > street short overlap camshaft, headers and the S.U. carbs or a triple > manifold from "GoodParts" and headers and you'll have really nice > performing > car on the road and reliable. After the head mill and valve grind and > headers you can add the other parts as time passes and you have more > funds. > The compression will be felt when you leave the garage. Just as an > added > feature the increase in compression will IMPROVE the mileage. From westerneagleracing at att.net Tue Jun 24 11:32:05 2008 From: westerneagleracing at att.net (westerneagleracing at att.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:32:05 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans Message-ID: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on Spitfires at Le Mans. Ron Jacobs Western Eagle Racing From hottr6 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 11:53:42 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:53:42 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: I suggest you spend a bit more time with your customer. There are two important questions that need to be answered: 1) What does he/she intend to do with all that horsepower, and; 2) How much money does he/she want to spend (all the while ensuring a balance between safety, handling, braking, reliability, economy, time between rebuilds and hp)? It is amazing that once these questions have been *honestly* answered, the vast majority of TR6 drivers will prefer the Moss Motors bolt-on supercharger. Most TR6 drivers (actually, most drivers) are on some sort of "my thing is bigger than your thing" kick, and obsessed with having something that is dimensionally larger than their neighbor. You got 15" wheels? I got 17" wheels. 11" brakes? I got 13" brakes. 350 hp? I got 355 hp. Yeah, like any of that stuff makes a real difference. What these folk do not realize is that you can scare yourself silly, and have a ball doing it, with a vehicle that is completely stock. The number of times I have humiliated Corvette, or kit- Cobras and yes, Miatas with my old stock TR6 on road or autoX courses belies the fact that most drivers have no idea how to control what they already have. Of course, if they are good drivers, I'm the first with the white flag. I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly. If you want to find out what can be done to a TR6 motor that is still manageable and enjoyable on the road, have a look at: http://triumph.hottr6.com/TR6motor.html After reading that, I am sure your customer will very quickly decide upon a supercharger. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From fubog1 at aol.com Tue Jun 24 12:07:18 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:07:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> I completely agree. Glen "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". -----Original Message----- From: Shane Ingate To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 23 21:02:43 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:02:43 +1100 Subject: [Fot] cooling Message-ID: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. From charly at mitchelplumbing.com Tue Jun 24 12:37:46 2008 From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly Mitchel) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:37:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs References: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <01ae01c8d629$65ec5750$0302a8c0@Charly> I agree totally also and have been told the early TR4 Z-S carbs flow the best of all including SU's. You know the ones with the funny choke. Charly Mitchel TR6 #44 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs >I completely agree. > Glen > > "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have > got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not > understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand > multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" > SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can > think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shane Ingate > To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com > Cc: Friends of Triumph > Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Tue Jun 24 12:40:04 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:40:04 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C368E3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> No, but in my old Datsun B210, I used to have to crank the heater all the way up in order to drive on a warm summer day without overheating. That worked just fine as long as you didn't mind arriving at your destination looking like you'd just run a 10K race. You're just talking about moving the position of the same system. Scott -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+scott.barr=mccarty-law.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+scott.barr=mccarty-law.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Preiss Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:03 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] cooling Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as scott.barr at mccarty-law.com From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 23 21:41:13 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:41:13 +1100 Subject: [Fot] cooling References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002c01c8d628$8983c7d0$0200a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: <003a01c8d5ac$26d7d7b0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Like using TR6 flat heater core as a supplementary radiator connected to the heater lines coming right off the head and water pump housing and mounted in the traditional oil cooler position down below the rad and in its own air stream. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig" To: "Steven Preiss" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling > Need more input > You lost me > Craig > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:02 PM > Subject: [Fot] cooling > > > > Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler > > and > > connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 > > radiator? > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as wensley_tr at comcast.net From kaskas at cox.net Tue Jun 24 12:54:44 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:54:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs References: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> <01ae01c8d629$65ec5750$0302a8c0@Charly> Message-ID: <311F55F02E804CE498CA6CBE418C8A87@RW> The problem I found was the occasional leak in a diaphragm that could throw you for a couple days until you finally find that little pin hole and of course the difficulty in finding optional needles. That is the reason I figured out away to use the S.U. needles and how to make a needle modifying tool. The floats also can be a problem and when you pull the float bowl you can have gasoline all over the engine side (read: headers) and that is okay when cold. You also need to align the float bowl vent so it does not flow over when hard cornering. Really a short list for a very effective carburetor until you get to the emission type carbs that had no adjustment for mixture and the needles were very difficult to deal with for racing. All easy things to fix though. Determination is the key. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Charly Mitchel" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:37 AM To: ; ; Cc: Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs > I agree totally also and have been told the early TR4 Z-S carbs flow the > best of all including SU's. You know the ones with the funny choke. > Charly Mitchel > TR6 #44 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs > > >>I completely agree. >> Glen >> >> "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have >> got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not >> understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand >> multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" >> SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can >> think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Shane Ingate >> To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com >> Cc: Friends of Triumph >> Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 13:23:20 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:23:20 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <3766CA05-D82A-49CD-9CE6-F999800C11E3@bnj.com> Funny you should mention that. The Ambro 001 that I bought from Doug Karon has an auxiliary radiator that plumbs to the back of the block. At least I think that's what it's doing--it's a plumber's nightmare. Haven't had time to figure it all out since I'm trying hard to finish Peyote for the Northwest Historics. On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:02 PM, Steven Preiss wrote: > Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil > cooler and > connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 > radiator? > Steve P. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From trhouse at greenapple.com Tue Jun 24 13:23:40 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (trhouse at greenapple.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Howdy; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51075.24.123.61.161.1214335420.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> I have been out of touch with the world for a couple of months still planning to go to the glenn tom > Hi Tom, > > Just wanted to give you a quick shout to see how you and your projects are > doing. I'm planning a trip to Watkins Glen for the vintage festival in > Sept., as it is the 60th Anniversity of road racing at the Glen. My > association with the Glen goes back a long way because of my going first > in 1949, and taking me in 1950. Its always like going home again. Take > care and let me know things are going for you and Doretti. > > Don Robinson > donaldr68 at bellsouth.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Tue Jun 24 13:35:26 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (trhouse at greenapple.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51115.24.123.61.161.1214336126.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> I went out this morning to head to the shop and found that someone stole a 1968 AH Sprite from in front of my house. Car is Red with Black interior good solid driver. Had some minor rear end damage. The licence plate light was broken off when it was backed into which resulted in a couple of inch depression of the area below the boot lid. Car had Ohio Historical plates on it. Solid wheels with Small AH hub caps. The neighbor saw it drive away about 2:00 AM this morning, (He thought it was me) Tom Householder Lancaster, Ohio 614-332-6541 > Joe Curry wrote: > > ...if they really were interested in > "saving the planet" They would scrap that > old car instead of selling it. > > My understanding is that it is far better > economics and less taxing on natural resources > to keep the old klunker going. Most of the > pollution caused by a car during its lifetime > (cradle-to-grave) is during its manufacture > and disposal, not when it is used on the road. > > I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource > cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than > building a Tahoe. What tipped the scales was the > manufacturing of the battery. The nickel is mined > in the US, processed in Poland, refined in Japan, > assembled into the battery in Canada, and then installed > into the car in Japan. The nickel travels around the > world 3 times. Don't even ask about the cost of > disposing of this toxic mess. Prius owners are in > for a real shock come time to replace the batteries. > > Shane Ingate, musing on a slow Friday, in NM > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. > http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s > kydrive_062008 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as trhouse at greenapple.com From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Tue Jun 24 14:04:27 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:04:27 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 performance upgrades Message-ID: <200806242004.m5OK4T28410632@ns3.geneseo.net> Most of these cars are driven around in civilized areas and don't see top speed. It could be argued that the performance factor that gives a driver the most fun is better acceleration. If you buy that, then a lighter flywheel gives more bang for the buck than any other mod. If you look at chassis dyno numbers before and after the normal mods for the first 20% power increase, and if you look at the real increase at speeds at which these cars are normally driven - namely, below 3500 rpm, you realize that the increase in car performance from our most popular mods increase the hp and torque a rather small amount at these rpms. A lighter flywheel, though, will be felt immediately. Likewise, changing from a 3.7 diff to a 4.1 will be felt immediately. uncle jack From tr4racing at googlemail.com Tue Jun 24 14:13:44 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:13:44 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: I still have a heater implanted and use it as an emergency cooler or at cold days for keeping me cozy and warm. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Steven Preiss Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. Juni 2008 05:03 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com From billsohl at optonline.net Tue Jun 24 16:27:57 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:27:57 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans In-Reply-To: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> References: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Message-ID: <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> Just curious, who authored the article? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans > Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on > Spitfires at Le Mans. > Ron Jacobs > Western Eagle Racing > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From westerneagleracing at att.net Tue Jun 24 16:37:51 2008 From: westerneagleracing at att.net (westerneagleracing at att.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:37:51 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans In-Reply-To: <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> Message-ID: <062420082237.8261.4861773F000C09CE0000204522230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Bill: Jim Donnelly with David Hobbs. Pictures from the collection of David Hobbs and Mike Cook -------------- Original message from Bill Sohl : -------------- > Just curious, who authored the article? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:32 PM > Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans > > > > Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on > > Spitfires at Le Mans. > > Ron Jacobs > > Western Eagle Racing > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From spreiss at verizon.net Tue Jun 24 01:34:39 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:34:39 +1100 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <008301c8d5cc$c2c56460$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> My TR3 w/ TR4 engine with 145-150 ft lbs of cylinder compression and H6 SUs with SM needles gets really poor gas milage. I have never gotten much more than 15-16 mpg on a tank of Sunoco 93. Granted I do drive it with elan most of the time, and have never driven long enough at cruising speed to find out what the consumption would be under those conditions. Recently I have gotten the engine to what seems to be very good state of tune. It has great pull below 3500 and willingly goes on up to 5k, but with some loss of pull above 4500. Plugs look clean and mixture adjusted as lean as can be for a smooth idle. New points and did a valve adjustment .010 all accross. Any insights? I even have and use an O.D unit. Tires are 165R15 with 26 LBS pressure. steve P. From spreiss at verizon.net Tue Jun 24 03:53:32 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:53:32 +1100 Subject: [Fot] rear axle Message-ID: <000a01c8d5e0$2a2d1f90$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Anybody ever tried using an MGB diff/rear axle on a TR3? Steve P. Full of questions today From S.Janzen at comcast.net Tue Jun 24 19:41:29 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:41:29 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Message-ID: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree it's expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs and artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't afford to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 estimated, the cost can come down. From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 20:07:13 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:07:13 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <571D6987-34B8-4703-8E07-612D7050A60A@bnj.com> Sure, I'll take two--XXL On Jun 24, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't > disagree it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing > costs and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we > can't afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From lfritz82 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:31:46 2008 From: lfritz82 at hotmail.com (Lorne Fritz) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:31:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance Message-ID: Thanks everyone. Some good ideas. Lorne _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashbac k From john at quantumechanics.com Sun Jun 15 06:41:20 2008 From: john at quantumechanics.com (Quantum) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:41:20 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: <4A96DC2C9A7B4F5D9F43C6F436E60773@desktop1> Jack/Clark - Hi again! I am sorry you are having trouble reaching me, but I now get between 50 and 80 phone calls and 20 to 40 emails each day! It is getting hard to do work answering all the emails and phone calls. I have also had problems getting correct top hat bushes. Some are incorrect depth and will not clearance on the mainshaft gears when stacked, some have bad O/D's and some bad I/D's. I have ordered from Moss and Victoria and I even tried ordering them from Rimmer and got the same junk. I think there is only one supplier and he has no quality control process, so it does not matter who you buy it from, you are going to get some bad ones. I have complained numerous times to these guys. All they do is put a temporary 'not available' on the part until they get in new stock, then start selling again. I think the supplier takes the defective ones back from one supplier and just reships them to another supplier! I have been honing out the bad I/D ones to make them fit. The bad O/D's and incorrect depth I have been sending back for replacements. I think I will look into making them myself through a local machine shop. Can you guys find someone to make them? Thanks! John Quantum Mechanics Ltd. 505 Wheeler Rd. Monroe, Ct. 06468 Phone 203-459-9612 Fax - 203-261-8497 www.quantumechanics.com From tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 15 13:05:01 2008 From: tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net (Tony Crawford) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:05:01 -0500 Subject: [Fot] ROLL BAR for 1961 Triumph TR3A Message-ID: Kas Kastner suggested you may be able to help me. I'm trying to find a roll bar for my 1961 TR3A that would be suitable for racing. Do you know where I could purchase one? Many thanks in advance. Cheers Tony --- Dr Tony Crawford Email: tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net Phone: +1 256-512-5512 +1 256-479-9124 (Cell) From tlizzard at msn.com Wed Jun 25 05:32:59 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:32:59 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <008301c8d5cc$c2c56460$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: My TR3 is similar, except I am running Weber 40 DCOE carbs and headers, and I converted to an electronic igniton from points using a recurved stock distributor. 3.70diff with OD. Same tire size at 30psi. I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the highway at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the less than economical right foot, at least in my case. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Preiss To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:34 AM Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. My TR3 w/ TR4 engine with 145-150 ft lbs of cylinder compression and H6 SUs with SM needles gets really poor gas milage. I have never gotten much more than 15-16 mpg on a tank of Sunoco 93. Granted I do drive it with elan most of the time, and have never driven long enough at cruising speed to find out what the consumption would be under those conditions. Recently I have gotten the engine to what seems to be very good state of tune. It has great pull below 3500 and willingly goes on up to 5k, but with some loss of pull above 4500. Plugs look clean and mixture adjusted as lean as can be for a smooth idle. New points and did a valve adjustment .010 all accross. Any insights? I even have and use an O.D unit. Tires are 165R15 with 26 LBS pressure. steve P. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com From emanteno at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 06:17:11 2008 From: emanteno at comcast.net (emanteno at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:17:11 +0000 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Terry Stetler" >> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the highway > at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. > > All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the less > than economical right foot, at least in my case. FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the top down. Irv Korey From ejmajor250 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 07:40:17 2008 From: ejmajor250 at comcast.net (Ed Major) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:40:17 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. Ed Major '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Terry Stetler" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Terry Stetler" > >>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>> highway >> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >> >> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the >> less >> than economical right foot, at least in my case. > > FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the > top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top > down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a > difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the > top down. > > Irv Korey > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as ejmajor250 at comcast.net From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:09:58 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:09:58 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Message-ID: <8DABE6E6-8EBB-4D94-B1F7-615A95CC069C@bnj.com> This is all worthwhile to hear. I have been considering getting rid of my Ferrari and building a good TR3 as a daily driver from all the bits I have downstairs (at least enough to build two cars). My Ferrari gets 18 in the city and 25 on the highway. I guess I'll keep it. PS. Diane says I was nuts anyway, and if I sold it she'd buy it. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. From fogbro1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 08:16:40 2008 From: fogbro1 at comcast.net (Ed Woods) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:16:40 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Sell Ferrari References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net><001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> <8DABE6E6-8EBB-4D94-B1F7-615A95CC069C@bnj.com> Message-ID: <002d01c8d6ce$1896eb50$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> I'd rather have the TR3 even if the Ferrari gets better gas mileage! Ed Woods From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:29:08 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:29:08 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: John Esposito wrote: > I think the supplier takes the defective ones back from one supplier > and just reships them to another supplier! In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost more than the British sensors. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ The im Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:33:07 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:33:07 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way to 6200 rpm. =80 Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca shback From BillDentin at aol.com Wed Jun 25 08:45:27 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:45:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: In a message dated 06/25/2008 9:29:38 AM Central Daylight Time, hottr6 at hotmail.com writes: > In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our > manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US > cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit > sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. > This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer > what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, > I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. > > FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost > more than the British sensors. > So! Let me get this straight. Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good. That answers a lot of questions. Bill (Damdinger) PS...Many, many years ago I used to sublet grading work to a guy, who used a small Deere dozer with a six way blade. He was very, very good at what he did. He had that saying, "Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good" painted across the hood. This was an earthy, blue collar, one man operation, making a pretty nice marketing statement on his one piece of equipment for the early 1960s. Another one that caught my fancy during the same period was a local waste hauler, whose trucks read, "Satisfaction guaranteed, or double your rubbish back!" ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:47:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:47:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Message-ID: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> I bet the gas mileage could be substantially improved by tuning the carbs. Most older cars I have worked on run amazingly rich. When I show my plugs to other mechanics they generally freak out a little. Every car wrench wants to see some brown, or at least tan. The only place I want to see that is a little in the base circle of the insulator. Sure, that's a holdover from racing motorcycles but these water cooled engines should be even more forgiving. If you showed plugs with tan on the nose to Bobby whatsisname (the guy from Champion) he'd say "you're safe" which meant "you have no idea what you're doing and I won't help you". There's a lot of horsepower and some mileage between slightly rich and just right. I suspect these cars were deliberately set rich to cover a bunch of owner maintenance ills and make them run better when they were cold. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. From spitlist at cox.net Wed Jun 25 09:01:28 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:01:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: Message-ID: <002701c8d6d4$58c86cc0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I have always suspected that my lousy gas mileage was directly related to my driving habits. There seems to be something about getting behind the wheel of a Triumph that increases the testosterone level in males of the human species. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Ingate" To: Cc: "Friends of Triumph" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > Ed Major wrote: > > > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a > > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! > Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way > to 6200 rpm. > > =80 > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:53:56 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:53:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> Message-ID: >>>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>>> is the less than economical right foot, at least in my case. >>> >>> One last thing. Every time you plant your right foot and drive your car with spirit as God and Ferguson intended it probably costs you ten cents. If gas was ten bucks a gallon it might be twenty cents. What a bargain! From tr3a58 at verizon.net Wed Jun 25 08:59:54 2008 From: tr3a58 at verizon.net (tr3a58 at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:59:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <4928227.1677051214405998432.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> When I drive my TR6 or 35 Ford, I don't worry about mileage. Only when I drive my Diesel truck do I worry. 10 MPG pulling the race trailer... Dean T. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > I have always suspected that my lousy gas mileage was directly related > to my driving habits.B There seems to be something about getting behind the wheel of a Triumph that increases the testosterone level in males of the human species. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Ingate" B > To: B > Cc: "Friends of Triumph" B > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > Ed Major wrote: > >> My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing >> a >> Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! > Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way > to 6200 rpm. > > =80 > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback .B It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca B > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html B > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net B > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > B > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net B > Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net B http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot B You are subscribed as tr3a58 at verizon.net B From fubog1 at aol.com Wed Jun 25 09:21:24 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:21:24 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> References: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> Message-ID: <8CAA4EE439E1E6F-D9C-352B@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com> One of the questions that I ask my service customers is "how is the cold-start? Answer, more times than not... "oh it starts up just fine, I don't even have to use the choke". Most street cars are WAY too rich, either wear or incorrect settings. Many are rich to the point of suffering top ring "washdown", especially the later cars with auto chokes. Yes a simple plug check will tell a lot of info. Glen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Babcock To: Ed Major Cc: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:47 am Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. I bet the gas mileage could be substantially improved by tuning the carbs. Most older cars I have worked on run amazingly rich. When I show my plugs to other mechanics they generally freak out a little. Every car wrench wants to see some brown, or at least tan. The only place I want to see that is a little in the base circle of the insulator. Sure, that's a holdover from racing motorcycles but these water cooled engines should be even more forgiving. If you showed plugs with tan on the nose to Bobby whatsisname (the guy from Champion) he'd say "you're safe" which meant "you have no idea what you're doing and I won't help you". There's a lot of horsepower and some mileage between slightly rich and just right. I suspect these cars were deliberately set rich to cover a bunch of owner maintenance ills and make them run better when they were cold. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From greenman62 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 09:40:51 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:40:51 +0000 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I worked for an AV company an number of years ago... the typesetters had a sign in their office It said "Try as we will, we just can't shine shit..." Greenman62 Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... > From: BillDentin at aol.com > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:45:27 -0400 > To: hottr6 at hotmail.com; john at quantumechanics.com > CC: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing > > In a message dated 06/25/2008 9:29:38 AM Central Daylight Time, > hottr6 at hotmail.com writes: > > > > In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our > > manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US > > cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit > > sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. > > This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer > > what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, > > I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. > > > > FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost > > more than the British sensors. > > > > So! Let me get this straight. Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't > good. That answers a lot of questions. > > Bill (Damdinger) > > PS...Many, many years ago I used to sublet grading work to a guy, who used a > small Deere dozer with a six way blade. He was very, very good at what he > did. He had that saying, "Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good" > painted across the hood. This was an earthy, blue collar, one man operation, making > a pretty nice marketing statement on his one piece of equipment for the early > 1960s. Another one that caught my fancy during the same period was a local > waste hauler, whose trucks read, "Satisfaction guaranteed, or double your > rubbish back!" > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as greenman62 at hotmail.com From simon at telephonestogo.ca Wed Jun 25 09:41:36 2008 From: simon at telephonestogo.ca (Simon Rasmussen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:41:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mosport weekend Message-ID: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> I was out on Saturday with my wife and had a very pleasant chat with Tony Drews, also spoke to Matt Molson and some ex Triumph drivers who now are cultivating German accents. We enjoyed watching a huge field splashing around in the rain, Minis coming out on top but TRs well represented. I was wearing a T shirt with a picture of Gilles Villeneuve which I have had for about 30 years and wear only on special occaisions. Looking at the Wolf CanAm car driven once by Villeneuve I spoke for a while to Dino (he noticed the shirt) and had my picture taken kneeling by the car. Rather horrifying to hear of his fatal crash the next day. I offer my condolences to his family and friends. Simon Rasmussen. From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 10:57:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:57:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mosport weekend In-Reply-To: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> References: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> Message-ID: Very sad indeed, he was a very good driver and a nice guy. I saw him drive several times, and I chatted with him at Mosport last year. I'd say something trite, like at least he was doing something he loved, but it was way too soon. I'd say to everyone "be careful" but it really doesn't make sense. Tracks like Mosport and Watkins Glen are inherently more dangerous than many of our home tracks--they're faster, they have challenging corners, and they slap you across the face and call you sissy if you aren't driving them hard enough. There's really no way to go 8/10's, it's more like 5/10's or all out. I love those tracks, but they can bite. We should all remember that as we converge on Watkins Glen. Make sure your car is up to snuff. Make sure your safety gear is safe. Take time to come up to speed. Drive at the level you're comfortable with, not the level you get sucked into. I'm going to try to remember all that myself. Even with those precautions, there's no guarantees. When we step on a race track we need to recognize that. On Jun 25, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Simon Rasmussen wrote: > I was out on Saturday with my wife and had a very pleasant chat with > Tony > Drews, also spoke to Matt Molson and some ex Triumph drivers who now > are > cultivating German accents. We enjoyed watching a huge field > splashing around > in the rain, Minis coming out on top but TRs well represented. > > I was wearing a T shirt with a picture of Gilles Villeneuve which I > have had > for about 30 years and wear only on special occaisions. Looking at > the Wolf > CanAm car driven once by Villeneuve I spoke for a while to Dino (he > noticed > the shirt) and had my picture taken kneeling by the car. Rather > horrifying to > hear of his fatal crash the next day. > I offer my condolences to his family and friends. > Simon Rasmussen. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From kaskas at cox.net Wed Jun 25 14:06:04 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:06:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yes indeed the top up makes a huge difference. When were testing the stock TR-250 at Daytona the top up made about a 3 mph improvement. -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:17 AM To: "Terry Stetler" ; Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Terry Stetler" > >>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>> highway >> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >> >> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the >> less >> than economical right foot, at least in my case. > > FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the > top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top > down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a > difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the > top down. > > Irv Korey > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Wed Jun 25 16:38:36 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:38:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: <4FEF7BAC.4A6B9A26.00159EE9@cs.com> Cid Lessard was also there with his great looking and well driven Spitfire. Folks were asking if Russ would be back. Outside of the obvious it was a great weekend. Joe Alexander >The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. > >Our paddock was anchored at it's usual location inside turn one, and >under our tents we had the cars of Keith Files, Tony Drews, Mark >Wheatley and me. Friday's three sessions went off with one hitch, on the >final session Keith's car dropped out with a seized engine. Looks like >another victim of the oil pump drive shaft tang shearing. The plan was >hatched to get the car back in form for the Glen in September. > >Saturday morning we had a qualifying session to determine grid position >for the afternoon qualifying race. Tony qualified 10th, Mark 11th, and I >was 13th. We were a few tenths apart. On the warm up lap the rain >started. Kind of light at first, but by the time the green flag fell it >was quite wet. I delighted to watch Mark work his racecraft and pick and >wiggle his way to round turn one in second place! Tony was in the inside >lane and was held up with nowhere to go. As we slid around with all the >Minis and Mustangs and a Corvette and even a 1962 Galaxie 500 I got >increasing uneasy, and on our second tear up the back straight a >microburst of heavy rain hit. I had enough and came in, Mark finished >5th, while Tony worked his way up to 8th. > >On Sunday morning's race we saw Tony Drews run a 144.9, Mark Wheatley >turn a 1:44.8, and I ran a 1:44.6. OK, in the column that really counts, >Tony came in 6th overall, Mark finished 8th, and I came in 14th. I had >a hoot running through traffic while our boys out front battled for >bragging rights. > >Mike and Sandy Jackson pulled the Trailer of Templeton Formula Vees, and >Mike piloted the Shadowfax while hired gun Dick Ryan ran the freshly >restored Ringwraith. The Ringwraith looks great, congrats on a job well >done, Mike! > >Bud Babcock was there in his gorgeous TR3, and Ivan Ivanyshyn piloted >the ex-Dave Herd Spitfire. Matt Molson ran his TR6 as well. > >Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That >combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible >enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are >extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the >highlight of my season. >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From mini at wi.rr.com Wed Jun 25 20:57:16 2008 From: mini at wi.rr.com (Richard Gehweiler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:57:16 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? Richard Gehweiler mini at wi.rr.com 1.262.894.5460 From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 22:23:50 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:23:50 -0700 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 Message-ID: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), headers (homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From rocky at spitfire4.com Thu Jun 26 00:02:17 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:02:17 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring References: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> Message-ID: <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Or early ones? Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gehweiler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? > > > > Richard Gehweiler > > mini at wi.rr.com > > 1.262.894.5460 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com From goodparts at verizon.net Thu Jun 26 04:11:51 2008 From: goodparts at verizon.net (Richard Good) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:11:51 -0400 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 In-Reply-To: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> References: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <48636B67.9020707@verizon.net> Jim, The front vac unit advances the timing with vacuum and the rear one retards. My preference is to connect the front unit directly to manifold vacuum at the banjo fitting on top of the manifold. This gives it full advance at idle and light throttle and as the engine load increases, the vacuum drops and the timing retards to keep it from pinging. Set the timing just short of pinging at any any load. The throttle response should be very snappy. The only down side is a tendency to run on when you shut it down. The unused vac unit may be left open but obviously you need to plug any unused vac ports on the carb. Richard Good Good Parts jim hearn wrote: >I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was >previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only >mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), headers >(homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only >have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum >unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another >way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks, Jim From robertten1 at aol.com Thu Jun 26 09:20:18 2008 From: robertten1 at aol.com (robertten1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:20:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring In-Reply-To: <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> References: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Message-ID: <8CAA5B746C88AF9-3B0-18F@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. My 2 cents, Bob T '64 Spit GT autocrosser -----Original Message----- From: Rocky Entriken To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Or early ones? Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gehweiler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? > > > > Richard Gehweiler > > mini at wi.rr.com > > 1.262.894.5460 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com From colordog.1 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 26 12:07:09 2008 From: colordog.1 at earthlink.net (colordog.1 at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:07:09 +0000 Subject: [Fot] TR3 oil cooler hoses?? Message-ID: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Is it possible to install the oil cooler lines to the filter adaptor plate with the motor in the car? It looks like there isn't room to get a wrench onto the front fitting. If so it's a 1/4 turn at a time situation (with oily hands!). Steve Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 12:36:19 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:36:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR3 oil cooler hoses?? In-Reply-To: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8171AA7B-D38C-4665-8E77-F1477138CAE0@bnj.com> Absolutely. It's no fun, but you can do it. You might be able to put them on the plate before you install it. Depends on your plate. No dice with mine. On Jun 26, 2008, at 11:07 AM, colordog.1 at earthlink.net wrote: > Is it possible to install the oil cooler lines to the filter adaptor > plate with the motor in the car? > It looks like there isn't room to get a wrench onto the front > fitting. If so it's a 1/4 turn at a time situation (with oily > hands!). > > Steve > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jsiam1 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 26 18:16:16 2008 From: jsiam1 at earthlink.net (Joseph Siam) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:16:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <13083349.1214525776997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi All I've got two I cant use. Both brand new never installed I would like to sell them. thanks Joe 818 350 6222 -----Original Message----- >From: robertten1 at aol.com >Sent: Jun 26, 2008 8:20 AM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > >Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. >Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. > >My 2 cents, >Bob T >'64 Spit GT autocrosser > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rocky Entriken >To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > > >Or early ones? > >Rocky Entriken > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Gehweiler" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM >Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > >> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? >> >> >> >> Richard Gehweiler >> >> mini at wi.rr.com >> >> 1.262.894.5460 >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as jsiam1 at earthlink.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 26 20:28:01 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:28:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and the silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be candid, most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a dinner and a drink. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Janzen" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree > it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs > and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't > afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 26 20:43:49 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:43:49 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen - KOA Campground In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> Linda and I will be staying at the Watkins Glen KOA campground again fior this years Vintage Event. We plan to arrive at the campground on Thurday. The KOA is only a couple of miles from the track entrance..it's actually so close you can hear the cars practicing. Anyone else from FOT staying there? Cheers, Bill & Linda Sohl 1961 TR-3A (We are signed up for the Tour de Marque...any other FOTers signed up?) From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 26 21:06:51 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:06:51 -0700 Subject: [Fot] PIR threatened by fire Message-ID: <20080627030714.JAEB11775.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Phoenix International Raceway was threatened by a 2000 acre wildfire. Check out photo #5 (of 11) to see how close the fire is to the track. The photo is looking back through NASCAR Turn 3 to the back straight. http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/slideshowfull/1238/5 More video and photos. http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/2008/06/26/20080626abrk-brushfire0625-ON.html Photo 12 shows the entire raceway and the smoke next to it. From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 21:11:27 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:11:27 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <690DFCE6-55EA-4D6D-BE3E-589BBD441617@bnj.com> Or even the insignificant ones. On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:28 PM, Bill Sohl wrote: > Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and > the > silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be > candid, > most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a > dinner > and a drink. > > Cheers, > Bill Sohl > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Janzen" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM > Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > > >> Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did >> get a >> negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't >> disagree >> it's >> expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing >> costs >> and >> artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. >> Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't >> afford >> to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 >> estimated, >> the cost can come down. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 21:13:01 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:13:01 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen - KOA Campground In-Reply-To: <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> Message-ID: If I were bringing Nero I'd be staying at the track, but Tony Garmey is bringing Peyote along with a bunch of other Northwest cars. So we're staying in a Hampton Inn at Painted somethingorother. On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Bill Sohl wrote: > Linda and I will be staying at the Watkins Glen KOA campground again > fior > this years Vintage Event. > We plan to arrive at the campground on Thurday. > > The KOA is only a couple of miles from the track entrance..it's > actually so > close you can hear the cars practicing. > > Anyone else from FOT staying there? > > Cheers, > Bill & Linda Sohl > 1961 TR-3A (We are signed up for the Tour de Marque...any other FOTers > signed up?) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From N197TR4 at cs.com Fri Jun 27 09:07:39 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:07:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Message-ID: Scott, Thanks for all of your work. Greg Petrolati called recently and he seemed very pleased with his artwork. I am sure we all will be pleased. I need to place an order myself and will do so shortly. If you are marginal on numbers, let me know, and perhaps there is a way to kick them up where they need to be. This Friends of Triumph event is turning out to be quite a Triumph Reunion and is likely not to be duplicated. Joe A > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > From trhouse at greenapple.com Fri Jun 27 09:25:11 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:25:11 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel exhaust. there is reportedly a British car auction in the Granville Ohio area in the next couple of weeks anyone got any info on it or nelson reidels Phone number. Thanks tom From BillDentin at aol.com Fri Jun 27 09:31:05 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:31:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: In a message dated 06/27/2008 10:26:07 AM Central Daylight Time, trhouse at greenapple.com writes: > I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM > Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would > car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light > was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til > light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire > wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and > the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. > the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way > after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some > fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at > the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as > a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel > exhaust. > Tom... You're kidding, right? Someone stole that? What, was it full of gas? Love, Bill (Damdinger) ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From spitfiresuz at 141.com Fri Jun 27 09:37:06 2008 From: spitfiresuz at 141.com (Susan Kahler) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:37:06 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48650922.7030603@141.com> Hi Tom! I am so sorry to hear about your car! That is one bold person, to just take it off from in front of your house. I searched on line and found these auctions: http://www.hemmings.com/calendar/?category_id=1&location= There is a listing for the Mid-Ohio auction in July, and several others that may be worth checking. I also found this auction: http://columbus.craigslist.org/eve/721772383.html You should probably be checking Craigslist and eBay for parts from your car (crazedlist.com is a Craigslist aggregator--it will let you search different areas at the same time). It is very possible they broke it down and are selling parts. More likely it is on its way overseas. :( Good luck! I hope you are able to find it in unmolested condition! Susan :) Tom Householder wrote: > I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM > Tuesday Morning . From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 27 10:54:29 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tom, I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. I really hope this person is caught! Tom Householder wrote: I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel exhaust. there is reportedly a British car auction in the Granville Ohio area in the next couple of weeks anyone got any info on it or nelson reidels Phone number. Thanks tom Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as sbracing at sbcglobal.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Fri Jun 27 11:08:56 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:08:56 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The engine was performanced out in the past few years . Had an alloy valvecover etc. Photos are available if interested . tom on 6/27/08 12:54 PM, Steven Benford Jr at sbracing at sbcglobal.net wrote: Tom, I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 27 11:18:48 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:18:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: I sent a copy to Scott Harper at Team Triumph too....he gets a lot of parts and car strips calls, in Warren,Ohio ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From jsiam1 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 27 12:05:00 2008 From: jsiam1 at earthlink.net (Joseph Siam) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:05:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <28893705.1214589900847.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi All I have two springs I can't use both are new never installed 250# I paid $320 each will sell for $ 270 + shipping. Thanks Joe -----Original Message----- >From: robertten1 at aol.com >Sent: Jun 26, 2008 8:20 AM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > >Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. >Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. > >My 2 cents, >Bob T >'64 Spit GT autocrosser > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rocky Entriken >To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > > >Or early ones? > >Rocky Entriken > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Gehweiler" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM >Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > >> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? >> >> >> >> Richard Gehweiler >> >> mini at wi.rr.com >> >> 1.262.894.5460 >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as jsiam1 at earthlink.net From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 27 13:08:01 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:08:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] battery question Message-ID: <010001c8d889$1ebe3440$5c3a9cc0$@net> Sorry to bomb the list. I have a question regarding deep cycle batteries for a motor home application. Anybody have some savy on this topic? I have run twin deep cycle Marine twelve volt 27 series batteries in the past and have a problem keeping them. These are not for starting or running the drive train, I have a separate 27 series automotive battery for that. The latest pair died and I found out the value of that warranty. Worth zip! There's a surprise. That's the third set since 2000. Ouch! Russ Moore From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 27 15:21:25 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:21:25 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: I am sorry but I am not going to make the GLEN race but I am sure there are others such as I that would buy Hats and shirts that can't be there $20.00 is as easy as 19.$. Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Sohl To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and the silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be candid, most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a dinner and a drink. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Janzen" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree > it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs > and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't > afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From stutzmans at comcast.net Fri Jun 27 18:11:38 2008 From: stutzmans at comcast.net (Stutzman) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:11:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 References: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <002a01c8d8b3$895e3fa0$c70aa8c0@D9DGQM31> The vacuum unit pointing forward is advance. The vacuum unit facing toward the firewall is retard. The advance unit connects to the front carb and the retard unit connects to rhe rear carb. Disconnect the retard unit and plug the line to the carb.All the retard unit does is retard the spark at idle and give you a lousy idle. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim hearn" To: "'Friends of Triumph'" Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 >I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was > previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only > mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), > headers > (homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only > have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum > unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another > way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, Jim > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had > a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as stutzmans at comcast.net From tony at tonydrews.com Fri Jun 27 19:00:43 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:00:43 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080628010026.8A1BA18789F@autox.team.net> I sent it on to the Thicko list. Good idea. - Tony At 11:54 AM 6/27/2008, Steven Benford Jr wrote: >From: Steven Benford Jr >To: Tom Householder Subject: Re: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) > >Tom, > > I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack > and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I > am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. From igofaster at charter.net Sat Jun 28 17:49:30 2008 From: igofaster at charter.net (igofaster at charter.net) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:49:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080628194930.8GLLB.592771.root@fepweb03> Hello FoT! I have this lovely Toyota T50 mated up to a GT6 bellhousing. I also own a TR6 with NO overdrive. Two questions... One, will the GT6 bellhousing mate up to a TR6 block... like can I use the T50 in my TR6? five beautiful speeds, forward!!! Second, can I mate a TR6 transmission up to a GT6? Bobby Whitehead From Gt6steve at aol.com Sat Jun 28 17:55:05 2008 From: Gt6steve at aol.com (Gt6steve at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:55:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines Message-ID: Yes and no to both questions. The GT6 and TR6 rear engine plates are subtly different, proving these cars were built by commitee. The GT6 and TR6 flanges are also on a different boltcenter. Nothing that can't be overcome. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From wgrosenbach at juno.com Sat Jun 28 18:01:15 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:01:15 -0600 Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines Message-ID: <20080628.180117.2364.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>> will the GT6 bellhousing mate up to a TR6 block? Yes. With the correct rear enging plate. >>>can I mate a TR6 transmission up to a GT6? Yes. But the ratios are not very satisfying. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Click here to save cash and find low rates on auto loans. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ndyIRPK7RhmGoHiWQk4E7mr78rUXaI5biwq9r4UhVFsgXqC/ From cak at dimebank.com Sat Jun 28 18:30:58 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? Message-ID: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... From claus at triumphracing.net Sun Jun 29 07:13:35 2008 From: claus at triumphracing.net (claus at triumphracing.net) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:13:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> And what works, one might add. I was surfing the web for information on good systems for for my GT6 Mk2 and my saloon 2.5PI (both road cars), and came across this thread: http://www.totallytriumph.net/dcforum/DCForumID19/2.shtml I hadn't heard about Gareth Thomas before, but after reading the above purchased his Tuning Manual via Ebay. I found that his writing is certainly another type of prose than Kas Kastners books - rather aggressive, in fact much like the thread above, where the author posted some thoughts on the exhaust manifolds. However much of the information is very general and not always really exact in how nor even specific in what to do. His thoughts did get me wondering about the manifolds, though: Even to the point of considering whether anyone of the currently available 6-3-1 systems are good enough to warrant spending money on? Certainly Mr. Thomas doesn't hold the Moss system in high esteem... > Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has > dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as claus at triumphracing.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 13:00:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:00:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> Message-ID: <25EF69C7-2E3C-43FD-8061-5160ADB4C10B@bnj.com> Clearly knows what he's doing as far as cars go, though his notion that everyone is "stealing my stuff" is tiresome. We're all copying Harry Ricardo and the guys who figured everything out. The biggest fights are for the smallest prize. On Jun 29, 2008, at 6:13 AM, claus at triumphracing.net wrote: > And what works, one might add. I was surfing the web for information > on > good systems for for my GT6 Mk2 and my saloon 2.5PI (both road > cars), and > came across this thread: > > http://www.totallytriumph.net/dcforum/DCForumID19/2.shtml > > I hadn't heard about Gareth Thomas before, but after reading the above > purchased his Tuning Manual via Ebay. I found that his writing is > certainly another type of prose than Kas Kastners books - rather > aggressive, in fact much like the thread above, where the author > posted > some thoughts on the exhaust manifolds. However much of the > information is > very general and not always really exact in how nor even specific in > what > to do. > > His thoughts did get me wondering about the manifolds, though: Even > to the > point of considering whether anyone of the currently available 6-3-1 > systems are good enough to warrant spending money on? Certainly Mr. > Thomas > doesn't hold the Moss system in high esteem... > > > >> Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has >> dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as claus at triumphracing.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 14:47:43 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:47:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 29 14:54:58 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:54:58 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <000c01c8da2a$645a4be0$0202a8c0@newcomputer> I built an aluminum shroud that attached to the radiator frame. The fan attached to the shroud. Worked great Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jim hearn Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:48 PM To: 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 15:51:31 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:51:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000c01c8da2a$645a4be0$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <000001c8da32$4ae12c30$b1191718@computer> Do I ultimately want the fan housing to even touch the radiator or should it be mounted (on a special mount) back from the surface of the radiator face by an 1/8 to 1/4 inch? Do you have any photos of the shroud you made? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Curry [mailto:spitlist at cox.net] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:55 PM To: 'jim hearn'; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: RE: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I built an aluminum shroud that attached to the radiator frame. The fan attached to the shroud. Worked great Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jim hearn Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:48 PM To: 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From jrherrera90 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:11:44 2008 From: jrherrera90 at hotmail.com (John Herrera) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:11:44 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan> to gain the hp. I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power used to drive the fan. Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases losses. What am I missing? John H. From rjl at gt-classics.com Sun Jun 29 16:15:32 2008 From: rjl at gt-classics.com (R. John Lye) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:15:32 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <20.22.19958.77908684@smtp07.embarq.synacor.com> At 06:11 PM 6/29/2008, John Herrera wrote: >Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move >the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where >I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only >thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of >the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do >you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases >losses. > >What am I missing? One part that you are missing is that the electric fan can be turned off when it is not needed, and therefore it won't draw power all the time. The crank mounted fan spins and draws power whether or not it is actually needed. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:17:11 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:17:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street car driven over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, but if you drag raced that car against another the lack of a fan would be horsepower to the good. Also, unless your fan has a very trick clutch it rotates at variable RPM which is as bad for a fan's efficiency as it is for a propellor. On Jun 29, 2008, at 3:11 PM, John Herrera wrote: >> I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt >> driven fan> > to gain the hp. > > > I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power > used to > drive the fan. > > Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven > fan move > the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe > this is where > I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. > The only > thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator > instead of > the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, > so what do > you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which > increases > losses. > > What am I missing? > > John H. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 29 16:23:23 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:23 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Mechanical fan draws from the engine's power to spin the fan. Electric fan draws from the battery to spin the fan. Only if the alternator/generator requires the same amount of power to charge the battery does there achieve no difference in power requirements. Since alternators are typically more efficient than mechanical fans, it is a net gain in power if you use an electric fan. Even greater difference if you don't have an alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if you want to charge the battery between runs. Joe -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Herrera Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:12 PM To: jim hearn; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan> to gain the hp. I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power used to drive the fan. Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases losses. What am I missing? John H. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:23:27 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:27 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <6FED297C-260E-482C-A2A1-3F03A38025A9@bnj.com> I learned NOT to mount the fan in front of the radiator. It caused Peyote to actually overheat--first time ever. I'd never use the ties again either--they might be too soft to rub through the radiator metal, but the grit that gathers around them is not. I got a leaky rad from a push-through mount. I just made a bracket to mount the fan in back of the radiator (spaced well away) and ran it as a puller. You only run it on the grid or when tuning anyway. Now I actually have made a removable fan that I just stick in for hot days on the grid or tuning. On Jun 29, 2008, at 1:47 PM, jim hearn wrote: > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt > driven fan > to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high > density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way > through the > radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the > aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef > which had a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 29 16:25:24 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:25:24 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080629222524.FURE7689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street > car driven over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, > but if you drag raced that car against another the lack of a > fan would be horsepower to the good. In addition, hopefully the electric fan runs only when needed; which should generally only be at lower speeds. In day-to-day driving, mine comes on only when I'm stuck in traffic, or just got off the freeway. The actual duty cycle is quite low. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 29 16:32:40 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:32:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Even greater difference if you don't have an > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > you want to charge the battery between runs. Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full power. Randall From rjl at gt-classics.com Sun Jun 29 16:36:36 2008 From: rjl at gt-classics.com (R. John Lye) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:36:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <89.CD.03947.76E08684@smtp08.embarq.synacor.com> At 06:32 PM 6/29/2008, Randall wrote: > > Even greater difference if you don't have an > > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > > you want to charge the battery between runs. > >Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you >mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best >of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full >power. I've seen it done on a Prepared class Spridget - which won several National SCCA titles. He just mounted a microswitch that controlled a relay to disable the alternator when the throttle pedal was sufficiently depressed. It seemed to work well. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net From cak at dimebank.com Sun Jun 29 16:59:26 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <200806292259.m5TMxQTJ024684@moose.dimebank.com> The other thing that you're missing is that the electric radiator turns at its design speed all the time its running. The fan connected to the crankshaft spins at the engine speed - which means, especially in a race situation, that it's usually turning much faster than it was designed for, and is mostly wasting energy instead of moving air (the blades are just 'stalling'). From wgrosenbach at juno.com Sun Jun 29 18:18:42 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:18:42 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you need! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 18:27:07 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:27:07 +0000 Subject: [Fot] French Grand Prix Message-ID: <063020080027.20088.4868285B00070B5600004E7822147564020A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Does anyone out there have the Formula One French Grand Prix recorded? If so...is it legal to burn a copy of it for me? I forgot to set the DVR when I left and didn't get to see the race coverage...although in fairness I did get to see the race from Esciente Golf on the back straight at Magny Cours. :) I'd just like to have footage of the race like I do for every other pro race I've been to. aaron From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 18:33:36 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:33:36 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Any weight or drag removed from the 'Rotating Mass' is a big help for power..less effort to spin stuff Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From Robertten1 at aol.com Sun Jun 29 19:51:48 2008 From: Robertten1 at aol.com (Robertten1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:51:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? Message-ID: Check out the Triumph Sports Six Club in jolly ole England, you'll find a couple of choises. Cheers, Bob T. PS if that is too far check out APT Fast on the west coast, the carry the Maniflow brand. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From bswope959 at msn.com Sun Jun 29 20:46:10 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:46:10 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR4 MOTOR Message-ID: Any one jot a sorce for a new TR-4 motor with heads Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:31:11 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:31:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: It's not the weight, it's the fan. Takes a lot of horsepower to turn that at high speed when it's stalling and fluttering. Maybe then horsepower or more. Water pumps are pretty bad too, as are oil pumps. On Jun 29, 2008, at 5:33 PM, RACER BUD wrote: > Any weight or drag removed from the 'Rotating Mass' is a big help for > power..less effort to spin stuff > Racer Bud > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William G Rosenbach" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density > radiator > > >>>>> I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a >>>>> gain in >> horsepower. >> >> It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my >> Spitfire >> 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of >> life, >> running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When >> it did, >> it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. >> Bill >> ____________________________________________________________ From lang at isis.mit.edu Sun Jun 29 21:42:12 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: Hi, Anecdotal reference: JK and GRM took a TR6 to a dyno to tune it... the goal was Street Prepared SCCA Solo. The BIGGEST HP gain they got in the exercise was 8 HP. They put on Webers, played with timing, added a header... all the legal street prepared stuff (no internal mods) and losing the fan was the big "winner". They removed the crank driven fan and got 8 HP. That's huge for a "free" upgrade. The answer is that the parasitic loss from the fan blade drag is always there (from idle to the red line). An electric fan is way more efficient and your aren't connecting it to the CRANK. There's no mechanical advantage or anything when you connect to the crank. About the only thing you should drive from the crank is a supercharger. :-) I dumped the fans on my TR6's years ago. c ya, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From triosan at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:45:03 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:45:03 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806292045h708a767fnc660d3596e3759b1@mail.gmail.com> See Kas's last book for the header sold by Tony Lindsey-Dean out of England. 6-3-1. Beautiful welds. Cost me $600 plus shipping a couple of years ago. See pictures and a comparison to a Pacesetter header at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/KingstonHeaderVerusPacesetter On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has > dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as triosan at gmail.com > -- Chuck Arnold From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 21:58:07 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:58:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <89.CD.03947.76E08684@smtp08.embarq.synacor.com> Message-ID: <000501c8da65$815c6fd0$b1191718@computer> I unplug my alternator when racing. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of R. John Lye Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:37 PM To: Randall; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator At 06:32 PM 6/29/2008, Randall wrote: > > Even greater difference if you don't have an > > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > > you want to charge the battery between runs. > >Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you >mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best >of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full >power. I've seen it done on a Prepared class Spridget - which won several National SCCA titles. He just mounted a microswitch that controlled a relay to disable the alternator when the throttle pedal was sufficiently depressed. It seemed to work well. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jimhearn1 at comcast.net From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 22:33:14 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (rob) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> but I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was a little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running with out the alt? rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 22:40:39 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:40:39 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <000401c8da6b$72d00390$0202a8c0@Bud> Maybe I'm not in the loop here...On my race car, I use an electric fan..mounted in front of the radiator..inside the shroud...I only turn it on when my temp goes up..I have no fan whatsoever attached to the engine... are you guys talking about street cars? Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "rob" <19to1tr6 at comcast.net> To: ; "William G Rosenbach" Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> > but > I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was > a > little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing > are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the > recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min > session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running > with out the alt? rob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William G Rosenbach" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density > radiator > > >>>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in >> horsepower. >> >> It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire >> 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, >> running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, >> it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. >> Bill >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car >> you >> need! >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 23:34:41 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:41 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c8da72$fec269e0$b1191718@computer> What is the crank trigger that you speak of? -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of rob Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:33 PM To: jrherrera90 at hotmail.com; William G Rosenbach Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> but I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was a little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running with out the alt? rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8Mf EeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jimhearn1 at comcast.net From henry at henryfrye.com Mon Jun 30 05:36:21 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:36:21 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <8cbd782d0806292045h708a767fnc660d3596e3759b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD40A3B0A@server.Triumph.local> Wow, that Tony Lindsey-Dean header looks really, really nice. I don't race a 6 cyl, but that header would look great on my shop wall. While my wife wouldn't blink paying that kind of money for art for the house, I can't justify it for the shop wall. But, if I got one, I might be enticed to build a TR250 racer and try to catch up with Leo at VIR! Does anybody know what happened to Fletcher's TR250 racer that was at The Mitty a couple years ago? :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Arnold > Subject: Re: [Fot] GT6 headers? > > See Kas's last book for the header sold by Tony Lindsey-Dean > out of England. 6-3-1. Beautiful welds. Cost me $600 plus > shipping a couple of years ago. > See pictures and a comparison to a Pacesetter header at: > http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/KingstonHeaderVerusPacesetter From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 30 09:08:30 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:08:30 EDT Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ Message-ID: FoT List, If you are NOT interested in this, please delete. I heard from Ishahara-Johnson Crank Scrapers, today. There are medical issues in the family and testing for these issues has slowed the progress down a bit. The 2-3 Triumph Pre-Group Orders are slated to ship this week, as I understand it. I suspect that all Group Orders will ship all during the month of July, including mine. Based on what I have heard so far, our patience will be rewarded with a fine product. If you have a window of opportunity to install in your engineand would like to put a RUSH on your order, I can try to expedite. Regards, Joe From igofaster at charter.net Mon Jun 30 09:26:46 2008 From: igofaster at charter.net (igofaster at charter.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 8:26:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080630112646.EUTKA.610540.root@fepweb02> Rimmer Brothers in England has a nice stainless steel header system that , if you choose, has a complete stainless steel system, all the way to the tailpipe. It's a three into two into one system... bolted right up, WITHOUT tweaking! I had one on my green GT6+, although I never raced that car. rimmerbros.com they have a nice catalog for the GT6 as well as others... I found them years ago when I restored my Triumph 2000 Saloon.... Bobby Whitehead #54CVAR YELLOW GT6+ From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Mon Jun 30 09:26:19 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:26:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? Scott From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 30 09:34:48 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:34:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Countdown to Watkins Glen-Commercial Offering Message-ID: FOT Glen Attendees and Participants Other than a cash sponsorship from Classic Motorsports, I have not solicited for any funds or contributions from the FoT. I still am not soliciting for funds. However, if any FOT Commercial entity would like to hang a sign, place an easel, show some product, hand out samples, please do. If you wish to donate some amount to the FOT coffers, please do. Or not. No direct vending would be anticipated....Ted has to pay for that privilege and that wouldnt be fair to him or the track. There are many folks donating time and effort and costs to make this weekend happen. TRF is bringing in the TRS....Joe Richards & Robert Smith are bringing in TS1 at great personal expense....The VTR is supplying a Glen event poster....BDI is supplying the Golf Car for Peg & Kas.....WPTA will be very visible with their usual contribution of HOSPITALITY, etc. There are folks coming in from far reaches & bringing significantly historic cars. Unless the gas prices cause a mass retreat, this event is going to HUGE. So, if you wish to contact me about what you might do, we can discuss. Showing wares that enhance the performance of our cars seems like a beneficial thing to do and entertaining, as well. Do as you wish. I'd like to see Ratco bring in a TR frame for display, but he wants to have fun, not work. :-) I hope this doesnt open up a fire storm...it is not intended to. If it does, I'll shut the idea down. I am spread a bit thin and may stub my toe...my apologies in advance. Thanks, Joe From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 30 09:36:15 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:36:15 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <01DBA883CB7540BFAE78993302223E60@RW> Back in my TR-3 racing days I did all the tests of the fan mounted to the crank. We were not allowed to remove the fan, but I found I could flatten the blades enough that I got almost the same result. This did require some serious heat to the hub. Racers will always be ahead of the rules makers. -------------------------------------------------- From: "William G Rosenbach" Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 30 09:57:24 2008 From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com (rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:57:24 -0400 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings Message-ID: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. If it is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe placement is key. Bob GT6 TR4 Datsun 2000 Datsun 510 trans am ---- "Barr wrote: > Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures > are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching > 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Mon Jun 30 10:17:32 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:17:32 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> References: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Thanks, Bob. The probes in the header I was using at the last race weekend ARE too close to the head - about 3 inches from the port. So I didn't believe the 1400 degree reading on the EGT, as you suggest. We just installed the skinniest needles I own (BGs) and screwed the jets down until they were ready to fall out. With those changes, it was still running at 1400 degrees on the rear EGT at between 8,000 and 8,500 revs, with lower temps on the #1 probe. All four plugs had an even tan color to them, no white ones, no dark ones. Then the exhaust valve on #4, the cylinder with the higher readings, went away (stuck open, broke off?) and did some impressive damage to the piston and combustion chamber. Could be just coincidence that the highest EGT readings were from the cylinder where we had the problem with the exhaust valve, but I'm not inclined to bet another engine on it :-) This weekend we plugged in a spare motor and swapped to another header with the probe holes in the correct location, according to the instructions, and found that I still had significantly higher exhaust gas temperatures on #4 (1250 degrees at idle). I'm presently looking for an air leak to explain the significant difference between #1 and #4. If I don't find an air leak, I'll start looking for other explanations. But all of that raises the question - how hot is too hot? Is 1400 degrees acceptable? 1450? All day? Scott -----Original Message----- From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com [mailto:rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:57 AM To: Barr, Scott Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] EGT readings One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. If it is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe placement is key. Bob GT6 TR4 Datsun 2000 Datsun 510 trans am ---- "Barr wrote: > Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas > temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back > were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 10:36:43 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:36:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> References: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Message-ID: How high is up? there are too many factors to be able to answer that question. The burn flame temperature in a typical engine is 3000-3500 degrees. That cools rapidly as the gas expands out the exhaust port but that's where it starts. At the end of the exhaust pipe, even a relatively short one, the temperature is only 200 degrees or thereabouts. EGT is a relative indication. That said, you probably have an air leak. On Jun 30, 2008, at 9:17 AM, Barr, Scott wrote: > Thanks, Bob. > > The probes in the header I was using at the last race weekend ARE too > close to the head - about 3 inches from the port. So I didn't believe > the 1400 degree reading on the EGT, as you suggest. We just installed > the skinniest needles I own (BGs) and screwed the jets down until they > were ready to fall out. With those changes, it was still running at > 1400 degrees on the rear EGT at between 8,000 and 8,500 revs, with > lower > temps on the #1 probe. All four plugs had an even tan color to > them, no > white ones, no dark ones. > > Then the exhaust valve on #4, the cylinder with the higher readings, > went away (stuck open, broke off?) and did some impressive damage to > the > piston and combustion chamber. > > Could be just coincidence that the highest EGT readings were from the > cylinder where we had the problem with the exhaust valve, but I'm not > inclined to bet another engine on it :-) > > This weekend we plugged in a spare motor and swapped to another header > with the probe holes in the correct location, according to the > instructions, and found that I still had significantly higher exhaust > gas temperatures on #4 (1250 degrees at idle). I'm presently looking > for an air leak to explain the significant difference between #1 and > #4. > If I don't find an air leak, I'll start looking for other > explanations. > > But all of that raises the question - how hot is too hot? Is 1400 > degrees acceptable? 1450? All day? > > Scott > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com [mailto:rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:57 AM > To: Barr, Scott > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] EGT readings > > One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. > If it > is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you > think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining > if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your > pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe > placement is key. > > Bob > GT6 > TR4 > Datsun 2000 > Datsun 510 trans am > ---- "Barr wrote: >> Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas >> temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends >> back > >> were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? >> >> Scott >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 13:12:28 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:12:28 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting Message-ID: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. It runs great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I connect the second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to the extent it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory cloth through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading points at 29 degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 degrees and total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here . . . what's wrong with the second set? From walt at hot-tr6.com Mon Jun 30 13:50:06 2008 From: walt at hot-tr6.com (Walter Hollowell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:50:06 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <20080630194946.83CCB18786B@autox.team.net> Throw on a new condensor. Start with the easiest things first. I run a Mallory on my TR6 and when it starts missing or backfiring I swap condensors and my problems go away. Walt Abq., NM -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+walt=hot-tr6.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+walt=hot-tr6.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Scott Janzen Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 1:12 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. It runs great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I connect the second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to the extent it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory cloth through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading points at 29 degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 degrees and total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here . . . what's wrong with the second set? Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as walt at hot-tr6.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 15:35:51 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:35:51 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> In the first place, NEVER run emory cloth through points. If you have a diamond point file then you can dress them carefully, but emory cloth just rounds the edges and reduces the contact area. I don't bother to look at the dwell of dual point distributors. Just set the point gap (to .025 as I recall, but I'm away from the notes) and then adjust the timing. My guess is that you're setting the point gap too narrow when you try to set dwell, but I could be wrong. Also, always suspect condensers--they're junk these days. On Jun 30, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. > It runs > great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I > connect the > second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to > the extent > it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory > cloth > through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading > points at 29 > degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 > degrees and > total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious > here . . . what's > wrong with the second set? > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From twakeman at razzolink.com Mon Jun 30 16:45:07 2008 From: twakeman at razzolink.com (TeriAnn Wakeman) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:45:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> References: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> Message-ID: <486961F3.3090602@razzolink.com> Bill Babcock wrote: > always suspect condensers--they're junk these days. > > Also if you are loosing condensers on a regular basis always suspect your distributor's ground. I was going through condensers like popcorn until I added a ground wire between the screw attaching the condenser and the engine block (screw holding the coil on). Haven't lost one since. Somehow a less than perfect ground kills Mallory condensers. Teriann From jerrybarr at charter.net Mon Jun 30 16:46:19 2008 From: jerrybarr at charter.net (Jerry Barr) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:46:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> I hope you have better luck with them than I have. I ordered two complete scrapers with the teflon inserts in early April. I paid for them by credit card and have never received them. I called in early June and they told me they would be shipped within the week, I still haven't received them. Jerry Barr On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:08 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: > FoT List, > > If you are NOT interested in this, please delete. > > I heard from Ishahara-Johnson Crank Scrapers, today. There are > medical > issues in the family and testing for these issues has slowed the > progress down a > bit. > > The 2-3 Triumph Pre-Group Orders are slated to ship this week, as I > understand it. > > I suspect that all Group Orders will ship all during the month of > July, > including mine. Based on what I have heard so far, our patience > will be rewarded > with a fine product. > > If you have a window of opportunity to install in your engineand > would like > to put a RUSH on your order, I can try to expedite. > > Regards, > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as jerrybarr at charter.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Mon Jun 30 17:36:46 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:36:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Photos of the stolen car can be seen at..... http://www.doretti.com/StolenPage.html on 6/27/08 1:08 PM, Tom Householder at trhouse at greenapple.com wrote: The engine was performanced out in the past few years . Had an alloy valvecover etc. Photos are available if interested . tom on 6/27/08 12:54 PM, Steven Benford Jr at sbracing at sbcglobal.net wrote: From tony at tonydrews.com Mon Jun 30 17:48:15 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:48:15 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty- law.com> References: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Message-ID: <20080630234805.1D1DC187681@autox.team.net> I routinely run 1400 degrees both front and rear in my TR-4 with correct probe placement. I used to run higher than that due to not enough spark advance. Front and rear should be close to each other, though. In the TR-4 it's more the water temp that causes valves to stick in the head and hit the piston and drop the little head off of the valve. - Tony At 10:26 AM 6/30/2008, Barr, Scott wrote: >Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures >are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching >1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > >Scott >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as tony at tonydrews.com From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 19:18:16 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:18:16 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen FOT shirts/caps- Calling for all orders! Message-ID: <011701c8db18$575e6040$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> We've had a good response so far. If orders correlate to attendance, about 40 of you are planning on attending. Ted tells me that the Glen only honors marques about every ten years, so this is your best chance to come to the Glen and/or get a shirt or hat commemorating it for another decade! I am going to try to wrap this up over the next week so that Ted can get this stuff manufactured in plenty of time before summer is seriously upon us. We expect to order few, if any, extras, so if you do not order up front there may not be another chance. For anyone who missed the first email, here it is again: we're going to offer three clothing items- a long sleeve denim shirt with a Triumph shield/laurel/Kastner Cup logo embroidered on the left front Baseball cap (blue or khaki) with the same logo Printed tee shirt with a terrific all Triumph race graphic designed by Greg Petrolati on the back, and the five color Amici Triumphi FOT logo you are all familiar with and the words Kastner Cup 2008 below it, on the left front. This will be in color, although it is shown in black and white on the link below Go to the link below and click on the words "photo album", then click on the images a couple of times to see them screen size - the embroidered logos, the shirt and cap and the tee shirt design. At this point, I need you to tell me how many of each of these you want and the size. Just send me an email. We need all orders by July 1. Ted Shumacher is graciously offering to handle credit card processing and will bring all the items to the Glen for pre-paid pick-up. If you do not plan to be at the Glen, shipping is extra. Once we have orders, Ted and I will figure out how to collect credit card info, checks, etc and get back to you once we have the orders. Long Sleeve button down denim shirts in blue or khaki, button down collar, breast pocket, embroidery above pocket. S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $30 +1 for every X above XL. An XL is a 17 neck size, 37" sleeve, so these are good sized shirts Baseball caps - hgh quality Adams cap, one size fits all, khaki color, $16 Tee shirts, light gray background, S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $19, plus $1 for every X above XL http://www.freewebs.com/sjanzen/index.htm From srcypher at mac.com Mon Jun 30 21:28:13 2008 From: srcypher at mac.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:28:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ In-Reply-To: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> References: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> Message-ID: It appears he just raised prices, too; used to be < $80 or so for the spit scraper, now its $120 on ebay... Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher 1971 Spit MkIV/1500 RaceCar 1971 TR6 TBD 1976 TR7 Street 1968 GT6 Vintage "I'm so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. Its the excitement only a free man can feel. A free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain" On Jun 30, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Jerry Barr wrote: I hope you have better luck with them than I have. I ordered two complete scrapers with the teflon inserts in early April. I paid for them by credit card and have never received them. I called in early June and they told me they would be shipped within the week, I still haven't received them. Jerry Barr On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:08 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 30 18:55:40 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:55:40 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629222524.FURE7689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <001d01c8db15$2f0f09d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> We do get a little carried away with the metaphysics of running these little cars around, sometimes. (In other words, sometimes they run and sometimes they don't.) Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Herrera" To: "Randall" Cc: "'Friends of Triumph'" Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > > > The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street > > car driven > over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, > > but if you drag raced > that car against another the lack of a > > fan would be horsepower to the > good.> > In addition, hopefully the electric fan runs only when needed; which > should> generally only be at lower speeds. In day-to-day driving, mine comes > on> only when I'm stuck in traffic, or just got off the freeway. The actual> > duty cycle is quite low.> > Randall > > Thanks, guys. > > I wasn't thinking about the periods when the electric fan was off. Only the > physics of it. Duh! > > John H. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 08:38:16 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:38:16 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Amici, In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this is going to be accomplished. What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Aaron Johnson #87 HP Spitfire 1500 Southern Illinois Region SCCA From REK46 at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:01:01 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:01:01 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:07:22 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:07:22 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 10:55:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fpspitfire at comcast.net writes: What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Depending on how far gone your car is, you could probably get it back to vintage spec. You would need new sheet metal of course. You motor and gbx should be OK. Jack Woehrle SVRA Technical Director **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of TR-Spitfire-08.pdf] From trmarty at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:08:09 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:08:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Paging Joe Curry Message-ID: Joe you out there? Drop me an email if you can. Email address I had found for you is getting bounced back. Thanks, Marty Sukey trmarty at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the im Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount From emanteno at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 09:14:38 2008 From: emanteno at comcast.net (emanteno at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:14:38 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060120081514.1796.4842BCDE000BC79A000007042207021633970A9D010507@comcast.net> You can run with Midwestern Council. Go to their website for more details. They run Blackhawk, Road America, and I think Gingerman and Autobahn. http://www.mcscc.org/ Irv -------------- Original message -------------- From: fpspitfire at comcast.net > Amici, > > In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises > many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is > coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F > production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this > is going to be accomplished. > > What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be > competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take > either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. > > What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car > running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... > > I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. > > Aaron Johnson > #87 HP Spitfire 1500 > Southern Illinois Region SCCA > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as emanteno at comcast.net From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 1 09:32:56 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:32:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> References: <060120081438.19043.4842B4580008018C00004A6322155558840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000101c8c3fc$c3bcbbc0$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Ever since the current president took over SCCA has ceased to be a club and has become a business. Like all businesses, it is all about the bottom line. Eliminating classes is one way to minimize expenses. For what it's worth, I dropped my SCCA membership about 3 years ago for the same reason. The Solo classes were also being compressed, making it impossible for certain cars (including mine) to be anywhere near competitive. Cheers, Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of fpspitfire at comcast.net Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:38 AM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Amici, In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this is going to be accomplished. What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. Aaron Johnson #87 HP Spitfire 1500 Southern Illinois Region SCCA Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:43:17 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:43:17 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, REK46 at aol.com writes: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 10:07:51 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:07:51 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 12:01:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JWoesvra at aol.com writes: Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for newer spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle I might add that at Watkins Glen this year when we feature Triumph, we WILL accept certain current spec Triumphs, just as we are doing for Sprite in a few weeks at Mid-Ohio. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From garygret at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 1 10:11:08 2008 From: garygret at sbcglobal.net (Gary Schneider) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <433988.99112.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Midwestern Council still has all the old Prod and GT groups, as well as the orphaned Spec Renaults which sometimes turn out a half-dozen cars. Rules are on the website and practically identical to SCCA. SCCA licenses are accepted since there is a lot of cross-over. There's also a vintage group at each race which runs all VH classes together, but rarely has more than 15 cars so there's a lot of room on the track. George Br. unfortunately took away our standing RA date this year, but BFR is the home track, Autobahn has a couple events and probably we'll go back to Milwaukee next year when they sort themselves out. Also an all volunteer group, so most race days are only $200-240 with a discount for running a second race group. Regards, Gary Schneider 37 EP TR-4 MC steward ----- Original Message ---- From: "emanteno at comcast.net" To: fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:14:38 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? You can run with Midwestern Council. Go to their website for more details. They run Blackhawk, Road America, and I think Gingerman and Autobahn. http://www.mcscc.org/ Irv -------------- Original message -------------- From: fpspitfire at comcast.net > Amici, > > In the past few weeks the SCCA has put out a plan that basically disenfranchises > many members by the elmination of all but 2 production car classes. This is > coming at the expense of G and H production which will be merged with F > production. There is no current plan from the board of directors as to how this > is going to be accomplished. > > What we do know, is there is no way for many of the H-Prod cars to be > competetive with the F-Prod cars. Some of us could be, but it is going to take > either the complete overhaul of the car or start over with a new car. > > What alternatives are out there for a current SCCA to run with? ie: a '72 car > running the 1500, flared fenders, slicks, dog ring gearbox, etc...etc... > > I'm losing faith that I'll be able to run this car anywhere in the next 3 years. > > Aaron Johnson > #87 HP Spitfire 1500 > Southern Illinois Region SCCA > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as emanteno at comcast.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as garygret at sbcglobal.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 13:24:33 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <265320.30020.qm@web53503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage groups? I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive against cars of similar displacement. I would not think that it would be impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is that something that could be possible? I know there are a good number of cars sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can enjoy racing with them. I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit current spec cars, anyone know if this is true? Or VRG? Aaron, maybe NASA will take us... !?! Of course all of this will be after the 2009 Runoffs..... ;) ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 11:43:17 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, REK46 at aol.com writes: If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to develop a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit cars....in a few years SCCA will be all Miata. Are you sayin' we ain't smart? Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just not a place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small displacement production cars. We aren't a parachute for current spec drivers and cars who have been squeezed out to float into without making some changes. You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't changin' just for you. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaxonracing at yahoo.com From ablake2 at austin.rr.com Sun Jun 1 14:59:37 2008 From: ablake2 at austin.rr.com (Greg & Alison Blake) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:59:37 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <182567.58610.qm@web58511.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 14:09:48 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:09:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage groups? >> Sort of but not exactly. However, in Vintage there are time lines and everyone that is here had to backdate to get in. We expect you guys to do the same and you are welcome. You just can't bring your current package. That wouldn't be right, now would it? We have simple and consistent rules that you must accept to play in our arena. I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive against cars of similar displacement. >> Apparently there aren't enough of you left to make that work for SCCA. I know that they have too many under subscribed classes. Run the numbers...what else can they do? As it is you get 2 ~ 15 minute sessions and a 30 minute race. At a typical vintage event you can get an hour a day and also run an enduro. I would not think that it would be impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is that something that could be possible? >> No. We don't have a shortage of complying cars. We are not dying on the vine. We are growing. We also have new "vintage" cars but they were built in the last 10-20 years. We don't want current spec 50 year old cars. That is why our name starts with a V (Vintage). I know there are a good number of cars sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can enjoy racing with them.>> I agree. Read our rules and do what all of our guys have done. If it was easy, you might already be here. It certainly must be easier than following that long trail of lollypops you guys have been following with SCCA. Well, the candyman just ran out of suckers. Did you leave a trail of corn to find your way back? I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit current spec cars, anyone know if this is true?>> HSR is not a vintage organization and they might actually have a place for you. Or VRG? >> Not a chance! This is a little tongue in cheek so no need to flame me back. We really will welcome you guys, but you will obviously have to make the changes. I would think it would be less than you guys spend on shocks and motors though. Jack Woehrle SVRA Technical Director **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From whimsey1 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 1 14:29:47 2008 From: whimsey1 at earthlink.net (jimdonick) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Friends: I'm not terribly close to it, being mostly a Vintage Guy, but I do know there were some issues at the runoffs last year between SCCA and Mazda. That led to some gossip that it would likely help NASA. I joined NASA last year and ran a National in Phoenix and the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. (Both in a Miata, I blush to admit) NASA is an up and comer with a growing National Organization. They are not as sophisticated in all regions yet as is SCCA but I can attest that the 25 Hours was a well run an event as I've ever taken part in. (It was also the adventure of a lifetime but that's a different story.) IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing with us here in the VSCCA. best to all jimdonick -----Original Message----- >From: Jay Creel >Sent: Jun 1, 2008 3:24 PM >To: JWoesvra at aol.com, REK46 at aol.com, fpspitfire at comcast.net, fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > >Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first >place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage >groups? >I am in the same boat as Aaron here in the Northeast. I have a lot >invested in my car and I want a place to run it to have fun and be competitive >against cars of similar displacement. I would not think that it would be >impossible to include current spec cars in an existing run group and any car >of current spec (i.e. 2008 rule set) would be class designated as such that >way any car currently running in an existing vintage class would not be >affected, they would only be sharing the track with some additional cars. Is >that something that could be possible? I know there are a good number of cars >sitting in garages because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of >some vintage groups, it would be great to bring those cars back out so we can >enjoy racing with them. >I had heard that HSR had classes that would fit >current spec cars, anyone know if this is true? Or VRG? >Aaron, maybe NASA >will take us... !?! >Of course all of this will be after the 2009 Runoffs..... >;) > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" >To: REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Sunday, >June 1, 2008 11:43:17 AM >Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > >In a >message dated 6/1/2008 11:28:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >REK46 at aol.com >writes: > >If the vintage groups were smart,they'd look ahead and find a way to >develop >a class for the current and future SCCA orphans,mainly the Brit >cars....in a > >few years SCCA will be all Miata. > > >Are you sayin' we ain't >smart? > >Vintage organizations already have too many "groups". There is just >not a >place on the schedule to do another group for never spec small >displacement >production cars. > >We aren't a parachute for current spec >drivers and cars who have been >squeezed out to float into without making >some changes. > >You are welcome but don't tell us how you want it. We ain't >changin' just >for you. > >Jack Woehrle > > > >**************Get trade secrets for >amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as >jaxonracing at yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as whimsey1 at earthlink.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 15:51:55 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:51:55 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, Not to beat a dead horse, but "that's racin'". You do what the MAN says or you put it away. When you ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and takes your chances. What do they say about big dogs and porches? Never changes. Just the faces change. Jack Woehrle...since 1963! **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 16:22:48 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> hmm. you must be made of money. I didn't build my car to have it collect dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, sounds no different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules changed. I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because you are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. "that's racing" is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. Doesn't look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the input, I am sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. A simple NO, your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go about our day. Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the reference to "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. I am done with this. Thanks ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: because of rules issues in the SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, Not to beat a dead horse, but "that's racin'". You do what the MAN says or you put it away. When you ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and takes your chances. What do they say about big dogs and porches? Never changes. Just the faces change. Jack Woehrle...since 1963! ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 16:32:28 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:32:28 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 6:23:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because you are the MAN The point is,our rules DON'T change! The MAN is not me...the MAN is your organization. Your MAN change YOUR rules. My rules don't change. Vintage is by definition, locked in time. I'm sorry to have to make it so blunt. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 17:05:37 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:05:37 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA refugees can race. The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to slide into the 70's, it kills it. Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a fun group. The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: > hmm. you must be made of money. > I didn't build my car to have it collect > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, > sounds no > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules > changed. I > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > because you > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. > "that's racing" > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > Doesn't > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the > input, I am > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > A simple NO, > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go > about our > day. > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the > reference to > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > I am done with this. Thanks > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > To: > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] > alternatives to the SCCA? > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > because of rules issues in the > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > Not to beat a dead horse, > but "that's racin'". > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > When you > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money > and takes > your chances. > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > Never changes. > Just the faces change. > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > ________________________________ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 17:26:36 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:26:36 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2008, at 4:05 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. > I've organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in > the inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage > racers--are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and > slicks came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had > lots of ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already > changed a great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often > anymore--they are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their > owners to have them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a > corner VS. their couple of million. Vintage organizations are > getting tougher on their rules, not easier. And it's for good > reason. I argued the other side long and hard--and I was wrong. It > doesn't help vintage racing to slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate > out front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored > against them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage > cars at home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and > money in it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit > these cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast > amounts of money being made in running club events that include > obsolete or low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team > Continental and the ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of > course you're on the track with some of the most misbegotten iron > you ever saw, but it's a fun group. > > The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people > complaining about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. > > On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 17:29:20 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Message-ID: <141634.77484.qm@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg: Please feel free to call me; I currently maintain this car for it's owner. I can give you all the in's and out's to it. Thanks- Ed Barnard Greg & Alison Blake wrote: Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 17:32:23 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay In-Reply-To: <000f01c8c42a$677bdb60$6401a8c0@blake1> Message-ID: <394648.58607.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg: Forgot to give you my number. 817-516-0899 (hm) 817-939-4419 (cell) -Ed- Greg & Alison Blake wrote: Sorry. I posted this for my Dad yesterday without including the item number...anyone know this car? Dad is trying to get back into the TR business. Ebay item #260243267361 Greg -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+ablake2=austin.rr.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert Blake Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:09 PM To: Fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] TR4a on ebay Does anyone know the history of this car? I have tried to contact the owner to no avail. Thanks Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ablake2 at austin.rr.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From rkramer3 at austin.rr.com Sun Jun 1 17:58:22 2008 From: rkramer3 at austin.rr.com (BOB KRAMER) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: <006b01c8c443$602a7fb0$0264a8c0@DadsComputer> Jack is right. Vintage rules are stuck in time and that is what make it great. Having said that there are some worries that vintage race organizations will suffer membership losses over time as the racer population ages. If NASA or some other yet to be formed post-historic race organizer puts together races for mid 70's and later cars we may lose racers. From the Triumph crowd there could be a great interest in racing later model Spitfires, TR6's and TR7's. Put them on the track with Celica's, early RX7's etc. and you would have a pretty interesting crowd. Bob Kramer rkramer3 at austin.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > In a message dated 6/1/2008 6:23:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > I could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > because > you are the MAN > > > The point is,our rules DON'T change! > > The MAN is not me...the MAN is your organization. Your MAN change YOUR > rules. > > My rules don't change. Vintage is by definition, locked in time. > > I'm sorry to have to make it so blunt. > > jw > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer3 at austin.rr.com From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:06:47 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:06:47 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 7:58:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkramer3 at austin.rr.com writes: >From the Triumph crowd there could be a great interest in racing later model Spitfires, TR6's and TR7's. Put them on the track with Celica's, early RX7's etc. and you would have a pretty interesting crowd. We actually accept all of those now. However, they have to be prepared to our standards which are reasonable, I think. The "period" is middle 70's. (Group 8). Prep level similar to SCCA Improved Touring. We just don't want fiberglass fenders, slicks, wide flares and black rubber air dams. Let those cars migrate to NASA which seems to have a great program. And...if anyone thinks I am to blunt...thanks for the compliment. And thanks to you guys who have supported what I have said...perhaps with more sensitivity. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 18:15:01 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:15:01 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 7:58:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkramer3 at austin.rr.com writes: there are some worries that vintage race organizations will suffer membership losses over time as the racer population ages. If NASA or some other yet to be formed post-historic race organizer puts together races for mid 70's and later cars we may lose racers. I think NASA serves a vital function in relieving the pressure on Vintage organizations to cave in. I doubt if anyone now Vintage Racing will migrate to NASA. It will be the other way if anything. The same caution came up when VDCA and later VRG started up. The powers to be looked at this as a threat. I said just wait and see. These organizations have stepped in and put on the races we couldn't or didn't want to do. They have been a windfall for us as we are not really an "entry level" organization. They provide certain benefits that we cannot and it has worked out very well. In short, if an organization puts on events that the core group of racers can relate to, that organization will prosper. Stable and sensible rules are vital to that concept. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From dave at microworks.net Sun Jun 1 18:27:53 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:27:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alfin Drums Message-ID: <20080602002705.HLFS23549.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> From one of the Local (Phoenix) Club members >From: "Craig" >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:42:10 GMT >To: dave at microworks.net > >Hello, >I am searching for a source for AFIN not ALFIN TR6 brake >drums. The drums have 4-5 fins that are ring shaped that run on the >outside of the drum. See attached photo. >Here are some UK websites with the drums but the exchange rate...... > >http://www.racemettleltd.co.uk/drum.html >http://www.racetorations.co.uk/catbrake.html >http://www.brakedrum.co.uk/ > >So does anyone know where I can procure 2 of these? >Craig Kenyon >____________________________________________________________ From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 1 18:30:08 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:30:08 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> Message-ID: No question, the point is that the guys who own the megabuck cars are keeping them in the garage, and that's sad. It doesn't make sense to change rules to make that even worse so that guys with good TR3's will have good reason not to race. The damage issue is a big deal with the handling difference of these cars, and it's the same thing a guy in a 59 Testarossa with it's limited brakes and skinny tires feels when Peyote stuffs inside him by outbraking him. I feel bad about that, and it would be nice to find a solution, but vintage racing really has already changed. Hard to un- ring that bell, but let's not find another to start banging on. I intentionally left the Mitty, off the all aluminum Tour last year, because racing with 70's cars with aero and slicks isn't that much fun. The carnage in my group the year I ran in it was astonishing-- worse than a SCCA race. I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore when they announced at the drivers meeting that cars with duct tape repairs had to have permanent repairs before the next event. Hmmm, what happened to suspensions for contact and the 13/13 rule. I have no problem remembering my first vintage race--I wandered into it by accident at PIR. GT40's, Testarossas, T70, 917, 908's, scarabs, tipo 61's, and all kinds of other great cars. These days you only see them at the Monterey Historics and big races like that. On Jun 1, 2008, at 5:07 PM, WILLIAM TOBIN wrote: > Hey Bill, maybe my $20k car is worth more to me than the $1M car is > to its > owner. We're all not rich out there; I've encountered a bunch of > Average > Joes out there who are great people. > Good point, though. > Thanks, Bill Tobin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Babcock" > To: "Jay Creel" > Cc: ; > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > >> Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. >> I've >> organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the >> inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good >> reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the >> requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA >> refugees can race. >> >> The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage >> racers-- >> are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks >> came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of >> ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a >> great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they >> are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have >> them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their >> couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their >> rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side >> long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to >> slide into the 70's, it kills it. >> >> Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out >> front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against >> them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at >> home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in >> it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these >> cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts >> of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or >> low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the >> ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the >> track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a >> fun group. >> >> The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining >> about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. >> >> On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: From S.Janzen at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 18:50:19 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:50:19 -0400 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c8c44a$a22ea8d0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> I look at this as a healthy exchange of viewpoints, and clearly there are different ones. I suspect if there are enough cars there is a class somewhere that you can run them. I do agree that the line needs to be drawn for Vintage, because it is a museum show and a race at the same time - if you look at the stuff that shows up at an SVRA event, you will know that Jack is pretty accomodating. Some of those Shelby Mustangs could never snick through the gears that quickly back in the day. Race cars do become obsolete. We just weren't around or foresighted enough to buy a $5,000 Maserati Birdcage, or the C- type Jag an old acquaintance of mine sold in the mid-seventies for less than $4,000. I don't think politics as much as supply and demand put the cars to pasture. Change is inevitable - no one kept the rules the same at Indy or F1. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Creel" To: ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > hmm. you must be made of money. > I didn't build my car to have it collect > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, sounds > no > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules changed. I > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change because > you > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. "that's > racing" > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > Doesn't > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the input, I am > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > A simple NO, > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go about > our > day. > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the reference to > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > I am done with this. Thanks > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > To: > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] > alternatives to the SCCA? > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > because of rules issues in the > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > Not to beat a dead horse, > but "that's racin'". > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > When you > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money and > takes > your chances. > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > Never changes. > Just the faces change. > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > ________________________________ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net From rocky at spitfire4.com Sun Jun 1 18:58:47 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:58:47 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> If "Vintage means vintage" translates to "nothing later than 1972 (or whenever) can run, ever," then there's a basic problem with that, as hinted below by the phrase "The grand old cars don't show up as often any more." I am in charge of the voting for the hall of fame of an organization of professional motorsports journalists. We discovered some time ago that our original division of pre-war and post-war (meaning WW II) had a problem. No problem when we started doing this in the '70s when pre-war was basically 1890-1940, a 50-year span, while post-war was 1945-1970, a 25-year span. So far, so good. But by the time we got to the '90s, we discovered the potential pre-war candidates were a finite group, and we'd elected most of the really good ones. While the post-war candidates were an ever-growing group now comprising nearly 50-years worth of drivers. The solution? We abandoned pre-war and post-war and defined the categories as "historic" and "modern" with the cutoff being 30 years ago. This meant that the cutoff moved forward every year, so today a star from 1978 is "historic era." and the historic era becomes infused with new candidates each year just as the modern era is. (The idea for this pattern actually comes from how the Baseball Hall does it, when a player transitions to being an "old timer"). So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? Especially since the idea behind vintage -- purportedly -- isn't about winning but just about putting the grand old cars on the track again? --Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Jay Creel" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've > organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the > inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- > are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks > came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of > ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a > great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they > are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have > them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their > couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their > rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side > long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to > slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out > front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against > them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at > home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in > it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these > cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts > of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or > low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the > ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the > track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a > fun group. From JWoesvra at aol.com Sun Jun 1 19:08:49 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:08:49 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? Surprise, it is! SVRA takes cars as late as 1998 (10 years from new) in certain groups if they are real race cars, prepared as they raced in their "period". If you have a 1988 whatever, and it is race prepared to that period, fine. What we don't want is 50 year old cars prepared to 2008 standards. We have no place for them. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 1 20:47:21 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:47:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901c8c45a$faf4ff40$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Since I don't race in the vintage events, I don't have a dog in the hunt but that gives me a different perspective looking in from the outside. I have for a long time been seeing exchanges concerning the various sanctioning bodies having different specs for the cars and because of that it is difficult to build a car that will fit in to all the groups. Maybe it is time that someone step up to the plate and figure out how to unite the various groups under a single governing body. It won't be easy since it will ultimately mean that some if not all cars will have to change to fit into the new rules, so a lot of negotiating will have to be done to accomplish the task. At the same time, it would be a good opportunity to address this new issue of bringing in additional classes that are being squeezed out of the SCCA. Just a thought! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:09 PM To: rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 21:55:26 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 03:55:26 +0000 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <060220080355.7533.48436F2D000C8C4B00001D6D22120207840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> I didn't start this conversation to bring out a war. I don't vintage race because I want to race for the competition. If I go the vintage race route I'll just do lapping days with the local BMW club with my car exactly as it is. While I appreciate the arguments against vintage groups trying to find a place for SCCA cars that are being displaced to run, I think it's pretty short sighted to rule it out. What I have is a car that is too far gone to go back to a more "stock" form. I wouldn't want to. Driving the car on slicks is amazing. Driving for me isn't about how much track time in a weekend. I like a 20 minute practise session, 25 minute qualifying and 45 minute race. It looks like there are few options, but I will check out Midwest Council. aaron -------------- Original message -------------- From: JWoesvra at aol.com > In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rocky at spitfire4.com writes: > > So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then > why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? > > > > Surprise, it is! > > SVRA takes cars as late as 1998 (10 years from new) in certain groups if > they are real race cars, prepared as they raced in their "period". If you have a > 1988 whatever, and it is race prepared to that period, fine. > > What we don't want is 50 year old cars prepared to 2008 standards. We have > no place for them. > > Jack > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as fpspitfire at comcast.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 22:17:07 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <144821.52621.qm@web53510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Does that seem like it would ever be possible? (universal rule set) I consider myself an outsider as well, as I have never run vintage. I am not a fan of contact nor have I ever initiated it but I do like close door to door racing. So if anyone knows of an organization that would be interested in allowing current spec cars that may be orphaned by the SCCA, let me know. JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? ----- Original Message ---- From: Joe Curry To: JWoesvra at aol.com; rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:47:21 PM Subject: RE: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Since I don't race in the vintage events, I don't have a dog in the hunt but that gives me a different perspective looking in from the outside. I have for a long time been seeing exchanges concerning the various sanctioning bodies having different specs for the cars and because of that it is difficult to build a car that will fit in to all the groups. Maybe it is time that someone step up to the plate and figure out how to unite the various groups under a single governing body. It won't be easy since it will ultimately mean that some if not all cars will have to change to fit into the new rules, so a lot of negotiating will have to be done to accomplish the task. At the same time, it would be a good opportunity to address this new issue of bringing in additional classes that are being squeezed out of the SCCA. Just a thought! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:09 PM To: rocky at spitfire4.com; Billb at bnj.com; jaxonracing at yahoo.com Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In a message dated 6/1/2008 8:58:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocky at spitfire4.com writes: So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to 1983 specs -- vintage? From william.tobin3 at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 18:07:41 2008 From: william.tobin3 at verizon.net (WILLIAM TOBIN) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:07:41 -0400 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b801c8c444$ae6bf4f0$2f01a8c0@ownereq69gs6ae> Hey Bill, maybe my $20k car is worth more to me than the $1M car is to its owner. We're all not rich out there; I've encountered a bunch of Average Joes out there who are great people. Good point, though. Thanks, Bill Tobin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Jay Creel" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > Actually, I think Jack is being brutally honest for good reasons. I've > organized a few races myself, and been involved to a degree in the > inner politics of several vintage organizations. There are good > reasons why these organizations resist the pressure of sliding the > requirements of vintage racing to later years so that various SCCA > refugees can race. > > The cars that people come to see race--even the other vintage racers-- > are cars from the fifties and sixties. Around 1970 wings and slicks > came in and racing changed forever. Even production cars had lots of > ground effects and aero tricks. Vintage racing has already changed a > great deal. The grand old cars don't show up as often anymore--they > are worth too much and cost too much to fix for their owners to have > them t-boned by some guy who is risking 20K in a corner VS. their > couple of million. Vintage organizations are getting tougher on their > rules, not easier. And it's for good reason. I argued the other side > long and hard--and I was wrong. It doesn't help vintage racing to > slide into the 70's, it kills it. > > Vintage means Vintage. Adding cars to a group that will circulate out > front and lap every vintage car, even if they aren't scored against > them, will change the game and keep even more true vintage cars at > home. Already saw it happen. If there's enough interest and money in > it then you can certainly organize racing events that suit these > cars. The SCCA isn't making these moves in spite of the vast amounts > of money being made in running club events that include obsolete or > low-interest cars. Here in the Northwest, Team Continental and the > ICSCC run races with over 40 racing classes. Of course you're on the > track with some of the most misbegotten iron you ever saw, but it's a > fun group. > > The SCCA's move is nothing new by the way. I heard people complaining > about the exact same stuff twenty years ago. > > On Jun 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Jay Creel wrote: > > > hmm. you must be made of money. > > I didn't build my car to have it collect > > dust. It is too bad that politics is what put cars to the pasture, > > sounds no > > different with SVRA. I built a car to the rules, and the rules > > changed. I > > could build a SVRA compliant car and then the rules could change > > because you > > are the MAN and since I am your b****, I will have to change. > > "that's racing" > > is something the "pros" have to live with, that is why they are pro's. > > Doesn't > > look like I will be running SVRA anytime soon. Thanks for the > > input, I am > > sure I will find some place to run the car, just have to look. > > A simple NO, > > your car is not eligible would have been fine and we could all go > > about our > > day. > > Sorry FOT, I don't typically respond in this fashion but the > > reference to > > "the MAN" was a little much for me to ignore. > > I am done with this. Thanks > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > > To: > > jaxonracing at yahoo.com; REK46 at aol.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; > > fot at autox.team.net > > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:51:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Fot] > > alternatives to the SCCA? > > > > In a message dated 6/1/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern > > Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > because of rules issues in the > > SCCA and the limitations of some vintage groups, > > Not to beat a dead horse, > > but "that's racin'". > > > > You do what the MAN says or you put it away. > > > > When you > > ARE THE MAN, you can make the rules. Otherwise you pays your money > > and takes > > your chances. > > > > What do they say about big dogs and porches? > > > > Never changes. > > Just the faces change. > > > > Jack Woehrle...since 1963! > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Babcock & Jenkins > Billb at bnj.com > 503.936.7660 > www.bnj.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as william.tobin3 at verizon.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 00:29:12 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:29:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> References: <779805.59201.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <003c01c8c44b$d0f94ed0$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Message-ID: <6E762951-B989-4882-A9C4-C024422E1931@bnj.com> I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden age and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the 20 year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has white hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy in an old car. On Jun 1, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Rocky Entriken wrote: > If "Vintage means vintage" translates to "nothing later than 1972 > (or whenever) can run, ever," then there's a basic problem with > that, as hinted below by the phrase "The grand old cars don't show > up as often any more." > > I am in charge of the voting for the hall of fame of an organization > of professional motorsports journalists. We discovered some time ago > that our original division of pre-war and post-war (meaning WW II) > had a problem. No problem when we started doing this in the '70s > when pre-war was basically 1890-1940, a 50-year span, while post-war > was 1945-1970, a 25-year span. So far, so good. > > But by the time we got to the '90s, we discovered the potential pre- > war candidates were a finite group, and we'd elected most of the > really good ones. While the post-war candidates were an ever-growing > group now comprising nearly 50-years worth of drivers. > > The solution? We abandoned pre-war and post-war and defined the > categories as "historic" and "modern" with the cutoff being 30 years > ago. This meant that the cutoff moved forward every year, so today a > star from 1978 is "historic era." and the historic era becomes > infused with new candidates each year just as the modern era is. > (The idea for this pattern actually comes from how the Baseball Hall > does it, when a player transitions to being an "old timer"). > > So what I'm saying is, if in 1988 a 25-year-old car (1963) was > vintage, then why in 2008 isn't a 1983 car -- or a car built. to > 1983 specs -- vintage? > > Especially since the idea behind vintage -- purportedly -- isn't > about winning but just about putting the grand old cars on the track > again? > > --Rocky Entriken > > -- From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 06:42:21 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:42:21 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from New Zeland and the UK. Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any paint though! Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 2 08:50:34 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, jimdonick wrote: [stuff deleted] > IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the > production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA > organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could > very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty > and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing > with us here in the VSCCA. ... meanwhile, NASCAR and the close relatives lick thier chops... The problem with the production car classes in SCCA is that the numbers are down. Why is that? I have no idea. But it's probably because there's a limited number of participants all trying to compete in expanding classes. Spec this and Spec that are one factor. But if they can get 40+ SM cars at the runoffs and barely get 20 HP cars (and then a couple don't even take the green at the race!), there's something wrong with the weaker class. So, you get two options - talk or walk. Walking is easy. Talking is a lot harder because you wind up trying to placate folks that are competitive and know what they want. You make a new rule set and you wind up being the bad guy if that new set doesn't align with the competitive guy's vision. And if that person is a leader (highly likely) they can rallye folks behind them (for example: XXXX org is full of idiots or whatever). Is there an easy solution? NO. Absolutely NO. Is forming a new organiztion the right thing to do? I'm not so sure. Of the folks that I've talked to that do the NASA thing (for example), 100% of them also run SCCA. How is DIVIDING the same people between two organiztions a good thing? Same thing goes for classes. If there's 100 active Sports Racers nationally, how is adding a Spec sports racer to the mix going to help? Does everyone chuck thier car and start over? NO. But this is a Triumphs list. We should talk about Triumphs. Where we play with them is up to us individually. Period, the end. > best to all > jimdonick Regards, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 09:24:58 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:24:58 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Hillclimb and Autocross project car for sale $750 Message-ID: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Sorry to bomb the list, but for anyone who is interested, here's the link to a GT6 $750 project - not worth listing on ebay given what they charge for cars these days! Car is near Philadelphia. http://www.freewebs.com/sdjanzen/ From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 09:41:25 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:41:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01BD36CD-30F7-47D6-B347-A00739BCF555@bnj.com> Shit does indeed happen, and I'm still down in my shop every day, fixing the result. Paint does get swapped, but it's only one way. I always smile at people who think vintage racing isn't racing. I've done just about every form of racing I can think of, and they're all the same--at least they are the same for me. It's just the ramifications of the screw ups that change. On Jun 2, 2008, at 5:42 AM, JWoesvra at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com > writes: > JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec > cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... > Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? > Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good > number of cars to participate? > Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. > > When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like > to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an > all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph > racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event > like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. > > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where > they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 > Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. > > In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from > New Zeland and the UK. > > Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive > and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car > polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. > You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. > However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any > paint though! > > Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars > that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have > folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good > car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. > > Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec > drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. > > This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and > truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. > > Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 09:53:48 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:53:48 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <133B474B-2BF9-4D91-AD98-0F69F1A031E6@bnj.com> Shit does indeed happen, and I'm still down in my shop every day, fixing the result. Paint does get swapped, but it's only one way. I always smile at people who think vintage racing isn't racing. I've done just about every form of racing I can think of, and they're all the same--at least they are the same for me. It's just the ramifications of the screw ups that change. On Jun 2, 2008, at 5:42 AM, JWoesvra at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:17:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com > writes: > JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec > cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... > Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? > Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good > number of cars to participate? > Size has nothing to do with it, so to speak. > > When we do marque features, they may be at any of our races. We like > to put on a show that the spectators can relate to. When we do an > all-Triumph special, we like to show the whole array of Triumph > racing history. That is why the modern spec cars work at an event > like that. They certainly are part of the marque's history. > > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where > they can run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 > Alfas and 150 MG's a few years ago. > > In case you care, we expect 40 Formula 5000's this year, many from > New Zeland and the UK. > > Also, I picked up several references about folks wanting competitive > and close racing. Y'all think Vintage Racin' is a bunch of car > polishers tiptoeing around worrying about paint jobs still, I guess. > You can race hard, close and fast, and still not bust your cars up. > However, shit still happens...eh Bill? I guess you didn't lose any > paint though! > > Bring out a legal car and I'm sure we have guys with similar cars > that will hand you your ass. If Triumphs are your fancy, we have > folks right on this list that will tell you how to prepare a good > car...and then they will hand it to you on the track. > > Just an observation and I hate to generalize, but many current spec > drivers seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. > > This is not a WAR as someone put it. It is just bench racin' and > truth tellin'. Too many people don't want to face truths head on. > > Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:09:20 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:09:20 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 06/01/2008 2:49:41 PM Central Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first > place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage > groups? > To some degree, but particularly with older vintage groups like the VSCCA out east they were ALWAYS vintage even before SCCA fell out of favor with some racers. The older vintage groups were made up mostly of 'collectors' who had old race cars (many historically significant) who wanted to do more with them than polish them. They wanted an opportunity to drive them at speed. But as we all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. It wasn't long before vintage events became less a high speed parade and more a race. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spreiss at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 19:08:54 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:08:54 +1100 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get the blood pumping. Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? Steve P. spreiss at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Lang" To: "jimdonick" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, jimdonick wrote: > > [stuff deleted] > > > IF (not sure it will happen) the SCCA squeezes out a few more of the > > production classes I'd strongly recommend that guys take a look at the NASA > > organization in their area. It may or may not fit their needs but it could > > very easily give you a home until you come to understand the inherent beauty > > and wisdom (as well as poetic truth) in building a TR2 or TR3 to come racing > > with us here in the VSCCA. > > ... meanwhile, NASCAR and the close relatives lick thier chops... > > The problem with the production car classes in SCCA is that the numbers > are down. Why is that? I have no idea. But it's probably because there's a > limited number of participants all trying to compete in expanding classes. > Spec this and Spec that are one factor. But if they can get 40+ SM cars at > the runoffs and barely get 20 HP cars (and then a couple don't even take > the green at the race!), there's something wrong with the weaker class. > > So, you get two options - talk or walk. Walking is easy. Talking is a lot > harder because you wind up trying to placate folks that are competitive > and know what they want. You make a new rule set and you wind up being the > bad guy if that new set doesn't align with the competitive guy's vision. > And if that person is a leader (highly likely) they can rallye folks > behind them (for example: XXXX org is full of idiots or whatever). > > Is there an easy solution? NO. Absolutely NO. Is forming a new organiztion > the right thing to do? I'm not so sure. Of the folks that I've talked to > that do the NASA thing (for example), 100% of them also run SCCA. How is > DIVIDING the same people between two organiztions a good thing? Same thing > goes for classes. If there's 100 active Sports Racers nationally, how is > adding a Spec sports racer to the mix going to help? Does everyone chuck > thier car and start over? NO. > > But this is a Triumphs list. We should talk about Triumphs. Where we play > with them is up to us individually. Period, the end. > > > best to all > > jimdonick > > Regards, > rml > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent > Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! > Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From spreiss at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 19:11:38 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:11:38 +1100 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: <003e01c8c44d$9c65c3e0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > In a message dated 06/01/2008 2:49:41 PM Central Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > > > > Not trying to be smart here, isn't that how vintage started in the first > > place? Cars that were "squeezed" out in the past moved on to create vintage > > groups? > > > > To some degree, but particularly with older vintage groups like the VSCCA out > east they were ALWAYS vintage even before SCCA fell out of favor with some > racers. The older vintage groups were made up mostly of 'collectors' who had > old race cars (many historically significant) who wanted to do more with them > than polish them. They wanted an opportunity to drive them at speed. But as we > all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. It wasn't long > before vintage events became less a high speed parade and more a race. > > Bill Dentinger Boys will be boys. S.P. > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& > ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 2 10:23:45 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:23:45 -0500 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 Message-ID: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> A few weeks ago I asked for advice regarding replacing the pinion seal on my street TR6. Comments were that Viton would have a longer life when subjected to the additives in differential lube. I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment type made from so,e sort of felt. Before I wrestle this thing back together, has anyone on the list actually found a Viton seal for this application? Or, has someone recently ordered a seal of modern construction from one of the aftermarket companies? uncle jack From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:25:00 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:25:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:09:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BillDentin at aol.com writes: But as we all know...it is very difficult to 'only put it in a little'. Put what where? jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From sgroh1 at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 10:33:03 2008 From: sgroh1 at comcast.net (Steven Groh) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:33:03 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Groh" To: "Steven Groh" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:28 PM Subject: Fw: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Groh" > To: "Robert Lang" ; "jimdonick" > > Cc: > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? > > >>I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller classes >>at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda subsidization. Times >>have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't change. >>And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, my dad >>was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, the >>Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula Fords, >>graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the writing >>on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down to a >>not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec conversion so I >>could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to SCCA, >>or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right one. I >>chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I built >>my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but to me, it >>was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a family >>event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a blessing >>that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a family. >>Some things you just can't put a price on. >> >> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA isn't one >> of them in my humble opinion. >> >> Steve Groh >> 63 Spitfire >> SVRA 393 >> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://www.team.net/donate.html >>> >>> Fot mailing list >>> Fot at autox.team.net >>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >>> >>> You are subscribed as sgroh1 at comcast.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 10:34:33 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:34:33 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA?-----now TRs at Watkins Glen Message-ID: FOT, I hope everyone picked up on Jack's forecast on the possible entries at The Glen. About 90 days away..... Joe Alexander ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- JW you said that the Triumph event at WGI will allow current spec cars? Similar to the sprites at MO... Is it the size of this event that allows for this opportunity? Where will those cars be grouped, and are you expecting a good number of cars to participate? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- > We will slot the later spec cars into appropriate race groups where they > can > run competitively. I would expect 100 Triumphs. We had 90 Alfas and 150 MG's > > a few years ago. Y'all come to the Glen and we'll have a great time. JW ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------- From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:38:21 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:38:21 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 12:33:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sgroh1 at comcast.net writes: >> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA isn't one >> of them in my humble opinion. Thanks Steve.....looking forward to Mid-Ohio. Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 10:58:08 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:58:08 EDT Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 Message-ID: Jack, One time I could only find a single lip seal. The seal housing was sized so I could put two single lip seals in tandem.....Two Chicago Rawhides in tandem might do it. JoeAlexander > I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, > Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a > 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago > Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I > installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment > type made from so,e sort of felt. > From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 10:59:22 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:59:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> Message-ID: <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> Yes and no. I think SCCA has become business-like, and that's nothing but good IMNSHO. As far as supersession is concerned, that's driven by US not them. When I bought my Radical and went DSR racing it was the hot ticket. Within a month there were five of them to compete against in the Northwest, and if you didn't have a Radical in DSR the best you could hope for was fifth--unless a Radical broke or didn't show. I won the Northwest championship in 2003. DSR was suddenly a hot class and people started paying attention to it. The Stohr hit the track. A guy who was lucky to get third in his Radical bought one and took three seconds off my best PIR time-- 1:17:something. Hot shoes in Stohr DSRs can do under 1:10, which is Formula Atlantic territory and mid-pack for the CART racers. I like wings and slicks racing, but not as much as racing Peyote. I damned sure wasn't going to circulate behind a pack of Stohrs, and I didn't care to spend 60K every two years in a "budget" race class so I sold my Radical and concentrated on Vintage. Lost the requisite $20K -- hmmm, more like 30. So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider them too dumb to live. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Steven Groh wrote: >> >>> I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller >>> classes >>> at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>> infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda >>> subsidization. Times >>> have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't >>> change. >>> And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, >>> my dad >>> was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, >>> the >>> Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula >>> Fords, >>> graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the >>> writing >>> on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down >>> to a >>> not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec >>> conversion so I >>> could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to >>> SCCA, >>> or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>> decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right >>> one. I >>> chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>> driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I >>> built >>> my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>> couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but >>> to me, it >>> was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a >>> family >>> event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a >>> blessing >>> that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a >>> family. >>> Some things you just can't put a price on. >>> >>> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA >>> isn't one >>> of them in my humble opinion. >>> >>> Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 11:01:55 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:01:55 -0700 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98718213-A712-4B5F-A6D3-EE99BE9783FB@bnj.com> I always put in two seals. Not rawhide, just whatever narrow seal I can find. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:58 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: > Jack, > > One time I could only find a single lip seal. The seal housing was > sized so > I could put two single lip seals in tandem.....Two Chicago Rawhides > in tandem > might do it. > > JoeAlexander > > >> I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, >> Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a >> 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago >> Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I >> installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment >> type made from so,e sort of felt. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From tlizzard at msn.com Mon Jun 2 11:04:42 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:04:42 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? References: Message-ID: Gents, The SCCA has been in constant flux regarding classes since it's inception. There is nothing new here. When was the last race for B Sedan?. A Sports Racer? C Modified, or one many won't recall, Spec VW Bug? SCCA has always been about what's current, even though it may not seem so. When I first joined 36 years ago, Production cars were the bread and butter of the racing program. Why? Because there were still a lot of manufacturers selling sports cars, and selling them in good numbers as well. That is no longer the case. Without manufacturer support the SCCA would have dried up a long time ago. Just my take on it. Now, as to the cars we know and love. Can you really expect to continue development on a car that was last produced over 30 year ago? As much as I love my old proper British sports cars, it is just not realistic to be competitive against modern designs with equal prep rules. A brand new MGB (for example) street car would be beaten up one side and down the other by a new Miata street car. Why expect different from competetion prepped cars? And the Miata will be far less expensive I the long run to keep running, hence their (as well as others) ascendance in SCCA racing. I have a personal friend in a similar fix. He is a long time SCCA racer in the midwest who campaigns a Lotus Elan. New rules have effectively made the car obsolete. I keep trying to get him to cut the flairs off and go vintage racing. I know he would have a great time, but old habits die hard I guess. It's a real problem, but not one without choices. I wish all of you the best. Terry Stetler From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 2 11:11:46 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <17434474.1212352187533.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <003501c8c44d$3a983a80$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Steven Preiss wrote: > I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get > the blood pumping. Exactly. That's my "plan", as it were. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? Why yes, I do. My TR6 is basically prepared to the '72 SCCA GCR except that my "cage" ties the front and rear of the car. Everything else was done so it can be reversed to STOCK if I wanted to sell the car as a vintage car. So, I currently run glass fenders, I can remove them and install steel in about one hour and be completely legal. Wait - the bonnet takes a bit more time. Make that 3 hours, tops. FWIW, SCCA does not use the term Solo 2 anymore. It's just Solo. > Steve P. > spreiss at verizon.net regards, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gaf3 at charter.net Mon Jun 2 11:29:09 2008 From: gaf3 at charter.net (Glenn Franco) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:29:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] diff seal for TR6 In-Reply-To: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806021623.m52GNpPW068306@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <48442DE5.6020501@charter.net> Try a National 47048N Not sure if its Viton but it should last longer than the leather seals that leak immediately after refilling with gear lube. Just my 2 cents worth Glenn Franco Spit racer under construction and leaking TR's with leather pinion seals and one that's not (replaced with a rubber lip seal) Jack W. Drews wrote: > A few weeks ago I asked for advice regarding replacing the pinion > seal on my street TR6. Comments were that Viton would have a longer > life when subjected to the additives in differential lube. > > I just returned from a visit to the local bearing and seal company, > Motion Industries, who said they could find only one seal with a > 2.686 OD and 1.500 ID. It is a single lip Buna seal made by Chicago > Rawhide. I think it will be better than the last replacement seal I > installed several years ago, which I find was an original equipment > type made from so,e sort of felt. > > Before I wrestle this thing back together, has anyone on the list > actually found a Viton seal for this application? Or, has someone > recently ordered a seal of modern construction from one of the > aftermarket companies? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as gaf3 at charter.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 11:36:35 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:36:35 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Ambro 001 In-Reply-To: <011501c8b9eb$7bdd6860$3a16c548@RW> References: <88193492-4EE7-4BA9-8A67-7B7647E656EC@bnj.com> <011501c8b9eb$7bdd6860$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <53FD4D1D-EBE6-4A61-BB7E-6672DEDE3F44@bnj.com> I haven't mentioned this previously since i didn't have the car in hand, but I've purchased the Ambro 001, Peyote's little brother, from Doug Karon. It's being delivered this week. I can't wait. I will still drive Peyote most of the time, but it will be nice to have an alternative, and it's such a pretty car. Maybe I can figure out some way to turn Nero (the Airstream) into a stacker. I suspect that would REALLY be asking for the thing to break in half somewhere on a dark lonely highway. It's really a privilege to have both of Bill Ame's cars. Diane likes the fact that it has a passenger seat. She's tired of sitting on the fuel cell. . [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F2_ambro%25202%2520008.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F3_ambro%2520001.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F4_ambro%25202%2520001.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F5_ambro%25202%2520002.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F6_ambro%25202%2520004.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F7_ambro%25202%2520005.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F8_ambro%25202%2520007.jpg] From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 12:33:40 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:33:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Ambro 001 In-Reply-To: <130237.29240.qm@web81705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <130237.29240.qm@web81705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <180E1FDA-1607-4117-B5BF-2431BD8989DB@bnj.com> Peyote On Jun 2, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > Cool! > > Which one will you bring to the Glen? > > Dennis > > > Bill Babcock wrote: > I haven't mentioned this previously since i didn't have the car in > hand, but I've purchased the Ambro 001, Peyote's little brother, from > Doug Karon. It's being delivered this week. I can't wait. I will still > drive Peyote most of the time, but it will be nice to have an > alternative, and it's such a pretty car. Maybe I can figure out some > way to turn Nero (the Airstream) into a stacker. I suspect that would > REALLY be asking for the thing to break in half somewhere on a dark > lonely highway. > > It's really a privilege to have both of Bill Ame's cars. Diane likes > the fact that it has a passenger seat. She's tired of sitting on the > fuel cell. > > . > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F2_ambro%25202%2520008.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F3_ambro%2520001.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F4_ambro%25202%2520001.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F5_ambro%25202%2520002.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F6_ambro%25202%2520004.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F7_ambro%25202%2520005.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of %31_multipart%3F1_multipart%3F8_ambro%25202%2520007.jpg] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as yellow-green at sbcglobal.net > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 2 13:51:30 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:51:30 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. The current ones don't look bad, but they are almost as old as I am. What's the best thing to do - put in new stock rubber ones and gamble that the rubber parts might be good for a change, or go to the new polyurethane mounts which would seem to me to be a harsher mount but which Moss says tends to prevent breakage of the frame brackets -- what's the wisdom of the list on this one? uncle jack From srcypher at mac.com Mon Jun 2 15:14:18 2008 From: srcypher at mac.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:14:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> Message-ID: <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> It comes from the inconsistency in the approach laid out, inconsistency in application of the rules. 1 strong national classes (#11) combined #22 into 1 class; 1 class (#16) kept by itself because it can't be combined with anything else, and some even question if its consistent with SCCA stated philosophy. SCCA has a pre-established method to keeping classes; overall participation in that class; once it fails to meet the thresholds set, it is considered for combination and consolidation. If SCCA hadn't demonstrated that certain classes get to stay national, despite not making the cutoff (GT3), or if SCCA was making way for a tuner class, a drifter class, or something that is clearly popular, would clearly create draw, and/or demonstrated "business saavy" to generate income, I would be hard pressed to argue theirm move Such does not appear to be the case. They are doing this why? I Quote: "In addition, opportunities for new classes such as those using biofuels and hydro- gen energy sources must be made possible for the future." I can't even begin to comment on that one. Most of the prod racers I've noticed have tended to say, if SCCA wanted 21 classes, why not just make the run-off cut-off 21 instead of 23/24 and be done with it? HP either ponies up with participation or gets trampled, that simple. I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts. Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider them too dumb to live. On Jun 2, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Steven Groh wrote: >> >>> I think we're all in agreement that the squeeze-out of the smaller >>> classes >>> at SCCA is heavily influenced by their current big business >>> infrastructure, pro racing media contracts and Mazda >>> subsidization. Times >>> have changed, and my guess is that it's current trajectory won't >>> change. >>> And it is painful to witness. I understand. I grew up on SCCA, >>> my dad >>> was a two-time RE, and I watched him race at Cumberland, Dunkirk, >>> the >>> Glen, and Marlboro in the 50's and very early 60's. I ran Formula >>> Fords, >>> graduated to a Formula Continental, and like many others, saw the >>> writing >>> on the wall for small-bore and open-wheel cars, too. It came down >>> to a >>> not-very-palatable choice - invest another 30K in a Zetec >>> conversion so I >>> could at least rely on running the FC Cooper Series in addition to >>> SCCA, >>> or cut the bleeding and go back to the future and run Vintage. Hard >>> decision to lose 20K on the sale of the FC, but it was the right >>> one. I >>> chose SVRA because every vintage sanctioning body, and every vintage >>> driver I spoke to respected them. They became the standard that I >>> built >>> my car to, and now that I have raced under their banner, I, for one, >>> couldn't be happier. Yes, it cost a ton to make the change, but >>> to me, it >>> was worth it. Now my dad's watching me. And once again, it's a >>> family >>> event. It's a shame that SCCA has ceased to be a "family", but a >>> blessing >>> that SVRA (not to leave out VRG, VSCCA and others) are indeed a >>> family. >>> Some things you just can't put a price on. >>> >>> There are choices out there. Changing SVRA to accommodate SCCA >>> isn't one >>> of them in my humble opinion. >>> >>> Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as srcypher at mac.com From vintage.racer at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 15:35:29 2008 From: vintage.racer at comcast.net (Gary Horstkorta) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:35:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA Message-ID: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Hello: Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit into the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. I've raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by a Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if they don't already have a program like this. Gary 1962 TR4 1969 TR6 1969 Triumph Bonneville From klynch_6 at msn.com Mon Jun 2 16:01:24 2008 From: klynch_6 at msn.com (KEVIN LYNCH) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:01:24 -0600 Subject: [Fot] 13" Minilites Message-ID: Good afternoon! I was wondering if someone might have a pair of M-lites for the GT6? (3 3/4") I need to check b-space however. Thanks much, Kev Lynch From norlinengineering at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 16:29:05 2008 From: norlinengineering at comcast.net (Norlin Engineering) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:29:05 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA In-Reply-To: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000201c8c500$128224d0$020ba8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> Another option. Oregon Region has a similar alternative where Patty & I race our Spitfire. We do not have as many cars as SF Region, so we run only one or two groups, but we have a group at every regional race. There's also a North Pacific Vintage Championship consisting of two races each in SF, Oregon and NW Regions. Oregon's rules are simple, only three pages: http://www.oregonscca.com/media-library/documents/vintage/2008vintagesupps.p df It's my understanding that next year the cutoff year will go to a rolling 25 years old. You can even ask for a waiver to run slicks. This whole thing started several years ago as a way to get more entries and to get the older cars back on the track. If your SCCA region is in need of entries, you might suggest this as Gary said in his response. Jim -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+norlinengineering=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+norlinengineering=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Gary Horstkorta Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:35 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA Hello: Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit into the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. I've raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by a Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if they don't already have a program like this. Gary 1962 TR4 1969 TR6 1969 Triumph Bonneville Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as norlinengineering at comcast.net From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 17:08:31 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA In-Reply-To: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> References: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yup, there's that. I run the SCCA vintage class fairly often, usually there's good racing to be had. Nearly anything qualifies--they even took my cheater TR3, which has about as much to do with a TR3 as a Nascar truck does. On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:35 PM, Gary Horstkorta wrote: > Hello: > > > > Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race > in a > "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a > series > which they classify as vintage ( see www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ > for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not > fit into > the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, > SOVERN, > VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA > Vintage. I've > raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown > off by a > Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite > competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always > find > someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort > of > environment. This might be worth investigating in your local > regions if > they don't already have a program like this. > > > > Gary > > > > 1962 TR4 > > 1969 TR6 > > 1969 Triumph Bonneville > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 17:20:46 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:20:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> References: <001f01c8c4ce$5552b590$6401a8c0@steven2sbouwlk> <6FF577FE-AD5E-4C2B-9BBD-F0D0C38237CB@bnj.com> <916DE612-5AC9-4390-8042-A758DF898723@mac.com> Message-ID: <94D3FA3E-5D27-4913-B30E-D48BEA2B2552@bnj.com> It's funny, I was just reading a great article on Web standards that made me realize how impossible it is to run an organization in a manner that pleases even a relatively small part of the community that forms around it. Rules are inherently arbitrary or they are not understandable. By that I mean, to take up all the possible definitions of even the simplest thing you must describe it to an absurd degree, and you have to know the future. Here's the article. I'm certain that this isn't a trivial thing, and it's not specific to any issue. It's why Muslim fundamentalists embrace terrorism, why I can't buy a cell phone without buying new chargers, why it's taking me two hours to build a transmission mount for Peyote., Well, maybe not that. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > It comes from the inconsistency in the approach laid out, > inconsistency in application of the rules. 1 strong national > classes (#11) combined #22 into 1 class; 1 class (#16) kept by > itself because it can't be combined with anything else, and some > even question if its consistent with SCCA stated philosophy. > > SCCA has a pre-established method to keeping classes; overall > participation in that class; once it fails to meet the thresholds > set, it is considered for combination and consolidation. > > If SCCA hadn't demonstrated that certain classes get to stay > national, despite not making the cutoff (GT3), or if SCCA was making > way for a tuner class, a drifter class, or something that is clearly > popular, would clearly create draw, and/or demonstrated "business > saavy" to generate income, I would be hard pressed to argue theirm > move > > Such does not appear to be the case. They are doing this why? I > Quote: "In addition, opportunities for new classes such as those > using biofuels and hydro- gen energy sources must be made possible > for the future." I can't even begin to comment on that one. > > Most of the prod racers I've noticed have tended to say, if SCCA > wanted 21 classes, why not just make the run-off cut-off 21 instead > of 23/24 and be done with it? HP either ponies up with > participation or gets trampled, that simple. > > I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in > vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go > away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts. > > Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? > > > Thanks > > -Scott Cypher > spitfireracer at xsmail.com > SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 > Reading, PA > http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher > > > > On Jun 2, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > > > So the question is, how is this the SCCA's fault? If the SCCA didn't > pay attention to this and other racing phenomena, car concentrations, > costs, and trends then I wouldn't consider them family. I'd consider > them too dumb to live. From budscars at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 18:01:49 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:01:49 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA References: <001901c8c4f8$94eca790$bec5f6b0$@racer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <012a01c8c50d$05f13640$0202a8c0@Bud> I'm with Gary on this...The SCCA vintage race that I ran last year at Laguna seca was really fun..even though I blew an engine.......The guy who heads up SCCA vintage out here..Bill Godwin..is very accomodating, and a pleasure to deal with Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Horstkorta" To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: [Fot] Alternatives to the SCCA > Hello: > > > > Out west here there is an alternative for SCCA prepared cars to race in a > "vintage" atmosphere. The Northern Pacific Division (SCCA) has a series > which they classify as vintage ( see > www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4481/132/ > for info) which has proven to be quite popular. If a car does not fit > into > the rule set of the other vintage organizations in the west (CSRG, SOVERN, > VARA, HMSA, HSR West) it generally WILL fit in with the SCCA Vintage. > I've > raced my TR4 with the SCCA vintage group and aside from being blown off by > a > Lotus Exige and several big Porsche's, the rest of the group was quite > competitive. They usually have fairly large grids so you can always find > someone to race with. It's essentially a "race what you brung" sort of > environment. This might be worth investigating in your local regions if > they don't already have a program like this. > > > > Gary > > > > 1962 TR4 > > 1969 TR6 > > 1969 Triumph Bonneville > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Mon Jun 2 19:18:28 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:18:28 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 5:22:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, srcypher at mac.com writes: I always knew my car with a 30 year long log book would end up in vintage. The writing has always been on the wall that HP will go away at some point. I just didn't need the kick in the nuts.>> Wear a cup! Anyone got a '72 GCR I can have? or burn a copy for me on a DVD? Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher I do, but you can actually get PCS and GCR at SOVREN's website. However, PCS/GCR have some loopholes that are not apparent as they were written without clairvoyance. Since you are in the East you will most likely race with someone who follows SVRA rules. (SVRA, VRG, VDCA). Hear are the Spitfire Supplemental Regulations as well as the Group 1 Regulations. As you can see, we have HP, GP, FP, all of which are very healthy and not going away in the near future. I can't imagine that you cannot make your car vintage legal over the winter. Once in, you'll never look back. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of gr1list2008.pdf] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of TR-Spitfire-08.pdf] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pdf which had a name of 2008 Rules & Regs-2.pdf] From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Mon Jun 2 19:33:12 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:33:12 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm vintage legal. Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need any more. Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not ready to jump ship, yet... If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice phrase or witticism (sp?) Thanks -S From budscars at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 20:18:12 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:18:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Message-ID: <015001c8c520$134bf6f0$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello Gang.......We are all very fortunate/made the right decisions/live our souls/etc...We are part of the Racing Family......There just Ain't no sport like this.....whether we agree or disagree with each other...I will bet my bottom dollar....That the Racing Family will come through in a crunch.. there will be Huge support ...if any of us are in a jam... 40+ years of being part of racing has taught me this... Have a Great evening Gang Racer Bud....Spitfire #21 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Cypher" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? > Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares > and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm > vintage legal. > > Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the > change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can > the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then > say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need > any more. > > Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the > straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough > experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle > a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, > so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not > ready to jump ship, yet... > > If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 > prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak > up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I > respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice > phrase or witticism (sp?) > > Thanks > > -S > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From mark at bradakis.com Mon Jun 2 20:29:27 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:29:27 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing plates for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly mounts. On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from his stage name, Bo Diddley. Sigh. mjb., From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 2 20:29:37 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 22:29:37 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: <3BD7914C.5EA1027D.00159EE9@cs.com> Mark J Bradakis wrote: >I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs >of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing plates >for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards >increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly mounts. > >On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away >Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to >any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from >his stage name, Bo Diddley. > >Sigh. > >mjb., >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From Herald948 at aol.com Mon Jun 2 20:59:36 2008 From: Herald948 at aol.com (Herald948 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:59:36 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 10:25:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark at bradakis.com writes: On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from his stage name, Bo Diddley. ==AM== Means everything to me, as it does/did for Rock and Roll in general...and for folks like the Beatles, Stones, Yardbirds, U2 and about a zillion other performers since. I remember seeing him at an early 1970s Rock and Roll "Revival" concert, back the others on the bill were mostly nostalgia acts. Not Bo! Man, who's left in original guitar legends? Chuck Berry and Les Paul.... bomp bomp-bomp bomp-bomp --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) The Vintage Triumph Register's Triumph 10, Herald and Sports 6 vehicle consultant _http://www.vtr.org_ (http://www.vtr.org/) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database:_ http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 21:44:02 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:44:02 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> References: <200806021951.m52JpaH4068800@ns3.geneseo.net> <4844AC87.2040901@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <810B4E42-FE6F-4708-92DD-75708FA87C2D@bnj.com> Sigh indeed. On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: > I would strongly suggest that even if the frame mounts show no signs > of distress, you take this opportunity to weld in some reinforcing > plates > for both the front and rear mounts. That will go a LONG way towards > increasing the life of either the stock rubber or the harder poly > mounts. > > On a completely unrelated note, Ellas Bates McDaniels passed away > Sunday at age 79. No doubt that name means absolutely nothing to > any of you. But I'm guessing a few of you might recognize him from > his stage name, Bo Diddley. > > Sigh. > > mjb., > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From GRMTim at aol.com Mon Jun 2 21:47:13 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:47:13 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the street, I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with that car and very often someone stops me and tells me the story about how their, brother, mom, cousin etc. had one and how much they remember the beautiful lines of that car and how well it drove. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/08 2:48:09 AM, Billb at bnj.com writes: > I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who > really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, > but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden age > and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if > drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the 20 > year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has white > hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy in > an old car. > > ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From GRMTim at aol.com Mon Jun 2 21:53:42 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:53:42 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/08 12:13:41 PM, spreiss at verizon.net writes: > I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and get > the blood pumping. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? > I've done that too. It is a lot of fun, but can be a bit frustrating too. The Solo II classes have (for the most part) passed the old cars by. Few if any are competitive. It used to be that every year a classic took one class or another at the Solo II Nats, but not much anymore. The news cars have gotten so good and it is so hard, especially in Stock class, to find all the fiddly bits to make an old car legal. Still, I can occassionally surprise a few people (most recently my 14 year old son) with just how capable a Spitfire still is. I also ran my TR3 race car on an autocross course as recently as last Tuesday and turned times close to a modified new MINI. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 2 21:54:19 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:54:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8643B3DF-1223-4F47-ADEE-20984D20C577@bnj.com> Yeah, but they're old. Don't get me wrong. I like 240Z's, and I remember firsthand when every hairdresser and "executive assistant" had one. I'm amazed Dave Talbot hasn't chimed in here with some kind of a roar since he raced the things back when he had hair. I've got an old Maserati Mistral, and everyone thinks it's a 240Z. They are so very wrong. You can actually go somewhere and return if you have a 240Z. You can't do that with a Mistral. On Jun 2, 2008, at 8:47 PM, GRMTim at aol.com wrote: > Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the > street, I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with > that car and very often someone stops me and tells me the story > about how their, brother, mom, cousin etc. had one and how much they > remember the beautiful lines of that car and how well it drove. > > Tim Suddard > Publisher; Classic Motorsports > and Grassroots Motorsports magazines > www.classicmotorsports.net > www.grassrootsmotorsports.com > Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 > > > In a message dated 6/2/08 2:48:09 AM, Billb at bnj.com writes: > > >> I've made the same argument many times, that most of the people who >> really care about a 1959 Testarossa are dead or at least not racing, >> but I've discovered its not really true. There really was a golden >> age >> and nineteen year olds still appreciate it. Cars are immortal even if >> drivers aren't. Drive a Jaguar XK120 or even a TR3 downtown and the >> 20 >> year old girls all give it a doubletake, even if the driver has >> white >> hair. Do the same thing in a Datsun 240Z and you're just an old guy >> in >> an old car. >> > > > > > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From lang at isis.mit.edu Tue Jun 3 05:26:38 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 GRMTim at aol.com wrote: > Hey, be careful here, while I race a TR3 and drive a Spitfire on the street, > I also have a nice early 240Z. I get a lot of looks with that car and very > often someone stops me and tells me the story about how their, brother, mom, > cousin etc. had one and how much they remember the beautiful lines of that car > and > how well it drove. That's just 'cause er so young. :-) > Tim Suddard > Publisher; Classic Motorsports > and Grassroots Motorsports magazines > www.classicmotorsports.net > www.grassrootsmotorsports.com > Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JWoesvra at aol.com Tue Jun 3 06:24:54 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:24:54 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into their fold. Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From GRMTim at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:24:40 2008 From: GRMTim at aol.com (GRMTim at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:24:40 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: > Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting > modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR > has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep > interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further > differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into > their fold. > > Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 3 08:33:23 2008 From: dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net (dale oesterle) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163829.25570.qm@web82202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just a note of appreciation to Jack. He does a great job at SVRA. Have been a member of four or five vintage organizations other than SVRA (and SCCA; I race a spec Miata) and seen it all. SVRA, with Jack, does well. GRMTim at aol.com wrote: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 In a message dated 6/2/2008 11:20:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim writes: > Second, while I agree with Jack's words (if not his tone) about letting > modern SCCA cars into SVRA, wouldn't this be a great opportunity for HSR? HSR > has always unofficially been more about newer cars and a little looser prep > interpretation. You would think that they might jump on this chance to further > differentiate themselves from SVRA and welcome old SCCA prepped cars into > their fold. > > Tim, et al: My "tone" comes from the fact that I am a curmudgeon, but also is mostly to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently some folks cannot differentiate my dry humor from outright personal assault. Do I need to filter my thoughts here? However, I might add that I have many supporters who echo my thoughts and who have had the wisdom and courtesy not to post them on the open forum. As to the HSR concept, I have brought this and other similar ideas up over the past few years. However, I have no influence there. It makes perfect sense to me. They might have one or two classes just for the later spec production cars. No need for another race group. Most would fit right into Group 2. I would further keep them on slicks. This actually ties in to the Walter Mitty theme that was the reason HSR even exists. Tim, you have influence and wisdom. Why don't you carry the water on this? Jack Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as dale.oesterle at sbcglobal.net From JWoesvra at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:37:00 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:37:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? and HSR Message-ID: In a message dated 6/3/2008 10:25:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GRMTim at aol.com writes: You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. I can handle the abuse that my rantings create. If I can stop a speeding locomotive then a bus won't be that difficult. jw **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Lunkercars at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 10:27:58 2008 From: Lunkercars at earthlink.net (Greg "Lunker" Hilyer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:27:58 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> Message-ID: <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> Scott, I'm sure we're quite a ways from you - Albuquerque is a long ways from most anywhere, but Southwest Motorsport [swms.org] would welcome you and your car. Our club motto is "a group for every driver, a class for every car". Greg Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > Look, dude, my car isn't an issue; I've got a ton of street spares > and plenty of stock body work. DOT tires, steel body panels, and I'm > vintage legal. > > Not everyone is in my situation. We've got 3 years to make the > change, if it comes to pass. A simple question was asked, where can > the car be run without mods, as is, where is. If SVRA isn't it, then > say so and drop it. I had enough lectures in college I don't need > any more. > > Kudos to those few where able to see the basic question and give the > straight answer. If we want to run a different org, we have enough > experience reading the 2" thick SCCA rule set, I think we can handle > a 3 page rule set. Most of our ilk did go to some kind of higher ed, > so I think we can adapt. It took some beer though...But we're all not > ready to jump ship, yet... > > If anyone else can point us to an org that will take a HP 2008 > prepped car and allow it to run without out mods, as is, please speak > up. If your org won't allow it, or would require a mod, then I > respectfully request you ____.. Fill in the blank with your choice > phrase or witticism (sp?) > > Thanks > > -S > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as lunkercars at earthlink.net From rocky at spitfire4.com Tue Jun 3 10:48:00 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:48:00 -0500 Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <002101c8c599$96290d00$6601a8c0@S1099895562> G Prepared in Solo (not Solo 2 any more since Solo 1 went under the clubrace banner and became PDX and time trials). GP is mostly LBCs and their ilk, cars that used to be D prep until the Miatas and MR2s came in and rendered us all uncompetitive. Burt we very much need more in GP or this class will disappear from "lack of interest." If your car would fit in GP, come play with us. Please! --Rocky Entriken '64 Spitfire ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Preiss" To: "Robert Lang" Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? >I seem to play with mine in the garage more than anywhere else.(!) Don't > really have sufficient resources at the present to build and campaign a > fully prepped race car. I just want to get the thing out on a track and > get > the blood pumping. > Anyone had any experience running vintage cars in SCCA Solo 2? > Steve P. > spreiss at verizon.net From wgrosenbach at juno.com Tue Jun 3 11:10:23 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:10:23 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? Message-ID: <20080603.111025.3988.1.wgrosenbach@juno.com> The Rocky Mountain Region of the National Auto Sports Association, has recently acquired the assets of Colorado's alternative vintage racing organization, Nostalgia Racing, Inc. They are not including all vintage cars in all events at this time, they have too many groups to deal with already. They are not embracing much of the Vintage Motorsports Council, practices or procedures. The date that they got from the NRI deal was a traditional vintage race weekend at Pueblo Motorsports Park. They accepted both open & closed wheel vintage cars at that event. There were around 38 closed wheel cars that included some Vintage Spirit Spec Miata cars, which NRI had been accepting & promoting the past few years. Open wheel was less well subscribed and for their final race on Sunday, there were 2 FV & 1FF cars on track. They had a total entry that weekend of around 180 cars. They will cut into that by requiring a HANS Device, or suitable system very soon. (was 6.1.2008 but. . . ) Future scheduled events may have open wheel OR closed wheel groups. NASA is mostly geared to support the American V-8 powered racer. That said, I'm not sure you could show up with something they could not find a place for. They have a huge set of High Performance Driving Experience groups that progress drivers along. They do operate sessions in the 13/13 Rule format (includes vintage), so contact is discouraged. (Though I've seen people refer to it as "13/13ths", which sounds to me like someone COMPLETELY out of control!) They are flexible, as noted in their rules "NASA offers a wide variety of driving programs throughout the United States including Rally Cross, Rally Sprint, Circle Track Racing, Hill Climbs, Autocrosses, Drag Races, Open Road Races, Time Trials, and more." They are a go fast crowd. I don't see them getting too supportive of little, tiny groups. They could broaden the definition of "Vintage", and I have a feeling they will. They are in a position to be able to alienate those who just came into the fold in an effort to draw a larger new group. There is no true H/Production in vintage racing in this part of the world anymore. A couple of years back, a Frog Eye Sprite showed up sporting an H/P on its flanks, running a 1410 CC, Weber fed engine. It has been acceptable here for years to fit anything with a BMC A-Series engine with the 1275 CC, or your creative version of such, breathing through an unrestricted twin choke side draft. Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing started with a handful of SCCA prepared cars as part of its membership. Those cars were, at the time, already eclipsed by the then permitted SCCA rules. Vintage racers developed beyond there as well, but on a different path. NASA could merge those paths, and be headed for a Region near you. Bill 70 GT-6+ ____________________________________________________________ Click for free info on online degrees and make up to $150K/ year. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nlXF2KEk0E9Pjxtd9ErIF3i5PXmtohp9WnQ8CuN6Wwei2iG/ From Group44TR7 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 11:32:35 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:32:35 EDT Subject: [Fot] alternatives to the SCCA? HSR, GRM, Baseball Message-ID: Amici HSR has been one of the few organizations that has been open to accepting the Group 44 TR7 AND placing it into a reasonable race category (under 2 liter). I personally feel a certain amount of additional pressure as a driver to have this car, with such a great history, to do well in the race. That is a challenge enough for me when I am with comparable cars. Unfortunately, the typical class options for TR7 place them in a situation where they are moving chicanes. Maybe what truly needs to occur is for a new sanctioning body to develope that more actively embraces preserving motor racing history in the period after 1972. Realistically, GRM could help make this happen by building awareness the issue in its pages. Okay, now for a sporting update. Son's team has won the regular season, now heading into playoffs. He ended season with a 850 hitting pace, but is a long ways from a gold glove candidate. As you can imagine, his coach has a love-hate relationship going on with him. I will check back in after the playoff are over :). Cary In a message dated 06/03/2008 6:25:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, GRMTim at aol.com writes: Thanks Jack, You know I love you and what you do for the SVRA. Wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, but you did seem a little extra cranky. As for me having wisdom and influence... its a pretty desperate world, when people are counting on me to be logical and influential. That said, I will get with Steve and Howard and see if we can push this idea further. It would make a great niche for HSR and help differentiate HSR from SVRA, which I think is still sorely needed. Tim Suddard Publisher; Classic Motorsports and Grassroots Motorsports magazines www.classicmotorsports.net www.grassrootsmotorsports.com Phone: (386) 673-4148 Fax: (386) 673-6040 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Tue Jun 3 11:32:54 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:32:54 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> References: <036E8845-B627-4B9A-8A9B-1FAD748BCE0D@xsmail.com> <598A3C8C-633D-4973-AEA0-4CAE4C46C659@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1212514374.25433.1256549021@webmail.messagingengine.com> Thank you, Greg. On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:27:58 -0600, "Greg Lunker Hilyer" said: > Scott, > I'm sure we're quite a ways from you - Albuquerque is a long ways > from most anywhere, but Southwest Motorsport [swms.org] would welcome > you and your car. Our club motto is "a group for every driver, a > class for every car". > Greg Hilyer > TR4 #314 > Albuquerque NM > On Jun 2, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Scott Cypher wrote: > -- Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com From tedtsimx at bright.net Tue Jun 3 14:32:53 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:32:53 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: alternatives to the SCCA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4845AA75.3050404@bright.net> Terry Stetler wrote: > Gents, > > The SCCA has been in constant flux regarding classes since it's inception. > There is nothing new here. When was the last race for B Sedan?. A Sports > Racer? C Modified, or one many won't recall, Spec VW Bug? > > SCCA has always been about what's current, even though it may not seem so. > When I first joined 36 years ago, Production cars were the bread and butter of > the racing program. Why? Because there were still a lot of manufacturers > selling sports cars, and selling them in good numbers as well. That is no > longer the case. Without manufacturer support the SCCA would have dried up a > long time ago. Just my take on it. > > Now, as to the cars we know and love. Can you really expect to continue > development on a car that was last produced over 30 year ago? As much as I > love my old proper British sports cars, it is just not realistic to be > competitive against modern designs with equal prep rules. A brand new MGB > (for example) street car would be beaten up one side and down the other by a > new Miata street car. Why expect different from competetion prepped cars? > And the Miata will be far less expensive I the long run to keep running, hence > their (as well as others) ascendance in SCCA racing. > > I have a personal friend in a similar fix. He is a long time SCCA racer in > the midwest who campaigns a Lotus Elan. New rules have effectively made the > car obsolete. I keep trying to get him to cut the flairs off and go vintage > racing. I know he would have a great time, but old habits die hard I guess. > > It's a real problem, but not one without choices. > > I wish all of you the best. > > Terry Stetler > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as tedtsimx at bright.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1478 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:12 AM > Terry and list. Everybody is making a good point. But no one has asked the real question - "Why did you go racing?" If the answer is to win, then you follow a path to a venue that values winning. If the answer is anything else, camaraderie, conversation at the water cooler or back yard barbecue or an inherent desire to spend money, then you find a venue that allows you to do that. Terry is absolutely correct, manufacturer's and/or the desire to sell products drive racing. Witness the stock car wars of the '60's all the way to last Sunday's NASCAR race, Honda in IRL or Porsche in several professional motorsports arena's. The big vintage sanctioning bodies, SVRA/HSR, are for profit groups. Even though SVRA is the "kinder, gentler" version of HSR's run what you brung, the cars we are involved with have been chased out. Either by rising costs, less time or ??? Sure there may be an exception at 1 event but look at the numbers for the year. 10 years ago small bore English, German and Italian cars would run up your leg when you walked through the paddock. Now the numbers are no where the same. The small cars are almost outnumbered by number of big transporters. Not a complaint, just a fact of life. The big rig guys can probably afford to spend more dollars per laps run than a Spitfire driver. The answer is the same as it's always been. Decide what and why then go find a place to do it.. -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From hottr6 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 15:22:51 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:22:51 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Message-ID: Uncle Jack asked: > While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. > What's the best thing to do I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 From fpspitfire at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 15:28:40 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:28:40 +0000 Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <060320082128.24314.4845B7880000F16400005EFA22120207840A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> All, While this is apparently a hot topic for some people. There have been some comments made that are certainly interesting. I would like to clear a couple things up. 1)The basis of the SCCA production category is that all cars SHALL be given allowances or hinderances to maintain each cars competetiveness in their class. I only brought this up because the current direction completely jacks with us and says your car is not going to be in that class anymore and you must change to make it in a new class. 2) I have no desire to change my car to run vintage and never made any comment that I want to run vintage, it's too far gone to change back ($10k probably) and I don't think the vintage crowd is for me. 3) Thanks to all of you who pointed me in the direction of midwest council and a couple other places. 4) SCCA could make a bunch of money by making all the groups that use their past GCR pay royalties. 5) I don't want to take my car somewhere and kick peoples ass with it...I just want to go run it in a class where it's as competetive as it is in it's current class. I'd prefer to not have to make any changes to it...there are going to be a lot of people in the same boat. I will still contend that vintage groups not thinking about accepting current cars is short sighted. The average driver is getting older and can't be out there for ever. Younger guys are not building vintage cars. I'm a pretty rare guy who is under 35 and races an older car. Thanks for the input...now lets move on to something else. aaron From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Tue Jun 3 16:11:53 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:11:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can say that I have many years on poly diff mounts. I used the first ones available back in the late 70's when somebody was pouring them into homemade molds, and I still have them. I replaced them with the newer, finer quality stuff that is now available but the old red ones looked better after 15 years than the rubber ones do after 3. I would argue that the diff needs to be fairly securely mounted. The gears inside are precisely mated and not likely to be effected by the additional harshness. I guess that's a matter of opinion. I suspect that firm mounting helps the half-shaft u-joints live longer. Failed rubber mounts are a leading cause of rear diff mount bracket failures. I don't think it's the harshness that does in the diff mounts, rather the hammering effect after the rubber collapses. I wouldn't solid mount it, but I think poly is perfect. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Shane Ingate Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:23 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts Uncle Jack asked: > While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. > What's the best thing to do I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From ejmajor250 at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 18:12:01 2008 From: ejmajor250 at comcast.net (Ed Major) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:12:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts References: Message-ID: <001301c8c5d7$9d54ccc0$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Back before I knew of the "poly" mounts, I used to just add washers to the old rubber mounts and squeeze them up until I had very little movement, a poor man's way of stiffening up the diff mounts. I think I copied Jack Wheeler or somebody who gave me the advice. Ed '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kramer, Robert" To: "Shane Ingate" ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts >I can say that I have many years on poly diff mounts. I used the first ones > available back in the late 70's when somebody was pouring them into > homemade > molds, and I still have them. I replaced them with the newer, finer > quality > stuff that is now available but the old red ones looked better after 15 > years > than the rubber ones do after 3. > > I would argue that the diff needs to be fairly securely mounted. The gears > inside are precisely mated and not likely to be effected by the additional > harshness. I guess that's a matter of opinion. I suspect that firm > mounting > helps the half-shaft u-joints live longer. Failed rubber mounts are a > leading > cause of rear diff mount bracket failures. I don't think it's the > harshness > that does in the diff mounts, rather the hammering effect after the rubber > collapses. I wouldn't solid mount it, but I think poly is perfect. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Shane Ingate > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:23 PM > To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 diff mounts > > Uncle Jack asked: >> While I have the diff out, I could easily replace to the diff mounts. >> What's the best thing to do > > I use poly. Alas, they do not have 30 years and 100,000 miles on them > so I cannot attest to their contribution to diff longevity. > > Over the years in other cars, I have developed a fondness for > solid mounts under the engine, and soft mounts for the g/box > and diff. The solid mounts are good for "feeling" bearing condition > when cranking the motor. I was advised by many that solid mounts > for g/box and diff is too hard on the parts. > > I have reinforced my diff mounts, so that any harshness that the > poly mounts bring into the equation may be offset by the bracing. > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. > http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s > kydrive_062008 > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as ejmajor250 at comcast.net From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 20:52:11 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <420605.29649.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> And to beat the dead horse a bit more. In a few years, the Miata will be a vintage car as well and it is prepped to 2008 specs, and so are our spitfires. If they will be allowed, and they will eventually, will the current spec spitfires etc still be disallowed? Why not allow them now, create a class for them. People enjoy seeing these cars perform, I have had many comments about how nice it is to see my car on the track. I am proud of that. I have a historically significant marque car, maybe not individually significant but as a Triumph it is, shoot it has even graced the pages of Kas' recent book and it is reflective of the continued interest in the car that it has survived up to now in SCCA. Imagine seeing 15 or 20 newly prepared cars (bugeyes, sprites, spits) with the vintage prepped cars. Phew that would be great. Even if I didn't have a car (dog in the hunt), I would still find that thought to be great. Like at WGI this fall, what a show that should be. If this can be accommodated for this event, why not for others? And just like the stereotype that vintage is just a parade, well not everyone with an SCCA car wants to dive bomb someone into the turn. I want to win, but not at the expense of my friend's cars or my own. It saddens me to think I could not be running SCCA. It was the best of the best. Love it or hate, you could not ignore it. There is only one SCCA and all the rest are just the rest in my book. While they all have their qualities, no organization has the history (good and bad), and I would bet everyone who has contributed here has memories of some great racing either personally or friends or otherwise. As Triumph enthusiasts, how do we not want to run where Kas and the Group ran. It means a lot to me even if it doesn't to others. And to be able to continue to drive the car and keep the marque going once it is no longer an SCCA eligible car, to join those that have already carried on the history from an earlier time of preparation sounds like it would be a blast. Freezing the rule set effective 2008 would be welcome by me. I don't want my car to gain any more weight (even if I continue to)... ;))) ----- Original Message ---- From: "fpspitfire at comcast.net" To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 5:28:40 PM Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts All, While this is apparently a hot topic for some people. There have been some comments made that are certainly interesting. I would like to clear a couple things up. 1)The basis of the SCCA production category is that all cars SHALL be given allowances or hinderances to maintain each cars competetiveness in their class. I only brought this up because the current direction completely jacks with us and says your car is not going to be in that class anymore and you must change to make it in a new class. 2) I have no desire to change my car to run vintage and never made any comment that I want to run vintage, it's too far gone to change back ($10k probably) and I don't think the vintage crowd is for me. 3) Thanks to all of you who pointed me in the direction of midwest council and a couple other places. 4) SCCA could make a bunch of money by making all the groups that use their past GCR pay royalties. 5) I don't want to take my car somewhere and kick peoples ass with it...I just want to go run it in a class where it's as competetive as it is in it's current class. I'd prefer to not have to make any changes to it...there are going to be a lot of people in the same boat. I will still contend that vintage groups not thinking about accepting current cars is short sighted. The average driver is getting older and can't be out there for ever. Younger guys are not building vintage cars. I'm a pretty rare guy who is under 35 and races an older car. Thanks for the input...now lets move on to something else. aaron Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaxonracing at yahoo.com From budscars at comcast.net Tue Jun 3 23:26:25 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:26:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] test Message-ID: <00d801c8c603$88efd640$0202a8c0@Bud> test From Group44TR7 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 09:43:27 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:43:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: Amici One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries foremost experts on oil pricing. Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. There is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that price. Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. Now an explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own investment and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These funds now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they previous held virtually none. If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to check where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the large public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the investment firms debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. Of course, it their investors moneys. Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him in person. Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. Cary **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 11:31:48 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:31:48 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: Drip? I've got a waterfall. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From timmurph at fastbytes.com Wed Jun 4 11:47:03 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:47:03 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read References: Message-ID: <001801c8c66a$ffb64ef0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Oil is traded in US dollars. The weak dollar is now at $1.60 per Euro. If the dollar was strong and at $1.00 per Euro (which is what the projected exchange rate was when the Euro was adopted) a barrel of oil would be a bit less than $80 per barrel now. $124/bbl divided by $1.60 per Euro is 77.5 Euros/bbl. Hence at $1.00 per Euro oil would be $77.50/bbl. I was involved in negotiating a contract with a German firm supplying controls to my former employer. The Euro was just about to be adopted and in fact by the time the negotiations were completed it had been adopted. There was much discussion as to how to handle the exchange rate fluctuations. It was projected for at least the next 5 years that the exchange rate would vary between $0.95 and $1.05 per Euro. If you are looking for someone to blame for the high oil prices you can look no further that the Congress and Executive branch over the last 40 years which has engaged in huge deficit spending and running up the national debt which has now come home to roost with a very much weakened US dollar. No different than you and I. Keep running up huge debts and sooner or later the bill has to be paid. In international currency there is no Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 (I think) bankruptcy to bail you out. Your currency just tanks on the international market. Interestingly there has been little or no discussion in this election year from the candidates about the national debt or the weak dollar. I guess it's hard for a politician to point the finger at himself! My thoughts. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:43 AM Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > Amici > > One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics > (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries > foremost > experts on oil pricing. > > Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. > There > is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that > price. > Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it > alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. > Now an > explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. > > Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and > investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own > investment > and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These > funds > now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they > previous held virtually none. > > If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand > for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to > check > where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the > large > public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the > investment firms > debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. > Of > course, it their investors moneys. > > Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this > morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him > in person. > Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. > > Cary > > > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From LOddTR at aol.com Wed Jun 4 12:21:45 2008 From: LOddTR at aol.com (LOddTR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:21:45 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: An article with similar comments was in USA Today this morning. In a message dated 6/4/2008 11:50:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Group44TR7 at aol.com writes: Amici One of my colleagues and friends is Jim William of WTRG Economics (_www.wtrg.com_ (http://www.wtrg.com) ). Jim is one of this countries foremost experts on oil pricing. Jim was very surprised when oil prices went soaring above $100. There is simply not a worldwide demand (or shortage) of oil to justify that price. Certainly the depreciation of the value of US dollar was a factor, but it alone was not a good explanation why oil was above even $60 per barrel. Now an explanation is emerging that may impact many of you. Apparently, the increase in prices are due to more pension and investment fund investing in the commodities market. Yup, your very own investment and pension fund may have contracted to buy oil at $130 per barrel. These funds now are holding about 1/3 of the commodity paper for oil futures when they previous held virtually none. If you think about what the recession is going to do to the demand for oil, these funds are in a high risk position. So you might want to check where your investment fund has its money; apparently even some of the large public employee pension funds have taken positions. Seems like the investment firms debacle in mortgages is about to be followed by a debacle in oil futures. Of course, it their investors moneys. Jim had just finished an interview with Fox Business News this morning on this very subject, so if you watch the chanel you may hear him in person. Not a big Fox fan, but this time they have a real expert. Cary **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as loddtr at aol.com **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From triosan at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 12:27:12 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:27:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> As long as we are on the topic: Senate witness today described the chairman of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), which is allowing U.S. oil futures market speculation to be "regulated" by British and Dubai, instead of American, authorities. In a hearing on manipulation of the skyrocketing oil price, the expert witness, University of Maryland law professor Michael Greenberger, told seven angry members of the Senate Commerce Committee that 35% of U.S.-based trading in West Texas Intermediate Crude oil futures has shifted to "dark markets," completely unregulated, by agreement with Britain. On these markets in particular, Greenberger said, a few hedge funds and three investment houses--Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and JP Morgan Chase--are controlling 70% of the speculative buying of U.S. oil futures and driving the price of oil steadily upward, while "ironically, issuing `predictions' that it's going to $200/barrel." This London-Wall Street speculative manipulation of oil and energy prices, with the knowing wink of the CFTC and its chairmanWalter Lukken, was also targetted by Consumer Federation of America witness Dr. Mark Cooper, and by the Senators themselves, as "the London Loophole" accounting for anywhere from 35-50% of the current price of a barrel of crude oil. Cooper told the Senators, "Roll up your sleeves, assert the national authority of the United States, and regulate these markets." On May 25, Sen. Maria Cantwell and 22 other Senators had released a letter to the CFTC demanding that the "London Loophole" be closed. Lukken had responded on May 29 promising action "by Fall." That exchange alone was enough, said Greenberger, to brake the dizzying oil price rise at about $135-going-on-$200, and pull it back down to around $125/barrel. Senator Cantwell said after today's hearing, "Now there will be a lot more signers; and I believe CFTC will take the action required by the economy, and by the morality of the American people, now." If not, she believes the Senate will legislate to force CFTC's hand. Greenberger and Cooper laid out in detail, how 35% of West Texas crude futures are traded on a market headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia--the Intercontinental Commodity Exchange, or ICE--which by CFTC staff actions, is juridically a London offshore market overseen only by the British Financial Services Authority! And oil futures trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) is now "regulated" only by the London-controlled financial authority of Dubai, under another CFTC staff agreement. On what are effectively British offshore markets, Greenberger said, the above-cited banks and hedge funds are simply "continuing and repeating the `subprime' crash of the securities markets, and all their derivatives, on the commodities markets." Adding a sobering note, Gerry Ramm of the Petroleum Marketers Association of America told the Committee that gasoline/diesel/propane dealers all over the country were facing bankruptcy and would start closing their stations, because "we can't get the credit to buy our receivables" which have doubled in price. From spitlist at cox.net Wed Jun 4 13:02:38 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:02:38 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people influencing these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to diesel power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Arnold" To: ; "Friends" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read From REK46 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 13:05:22 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:05:22 EDT Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read Message-ID: In keeping with conspiracy's...they are prob trying to put the independent truckers out of business, so then the large conglomerate multi-national truckers can take all the business and jack up the prices sky high on all our food and commerce. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Wed Jun 4 13:22:04 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 REK46 at aol.com wrote: > In keeping with conspiracy's...they are prob trying to put the independent > truckers out of business, so then the large conglomerate multi-national truckers > can take all the business and jack up the prices sky high on all our food and > commerce. No - Commodore Vanderbilt is still pissed off that we broke up his rail monopolies and is trying to get back into the driver's seat. :-) rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From S.Janzen at comcast.net Wed Jun 4 13:33:38 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:33:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Diesel and Gas out of a Barrel of oil References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> This is an exerpt from a larger article - apparently the refining process is not what most of us assume. "Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil refineries tend to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. Most U.S. refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each barrel of crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and most of the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that minimizes the production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the stuff, so it exports it to America-about one of every eight gallons of gasoline that we consume. " ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Curry" To: "Chuck Arnold" ; ; "Friends" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand > requires > less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to > reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people influencing > these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to > diesel > power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. > > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Arnold" > To: ; "Friends" > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To Read > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net From Billb at bnj.com Wed Jun 4 18:33:01 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:33:01 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Diesel and Gas out of a Barrel of oil In-Reply-To: <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <8cbd782d0806041127t4b06fb94jeecb74e52d86ae7b@mail.gmail.com> <003201c8c675$8ee05940$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <002c01c8c679$e44e7a70$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: Yup. Diesel isn't that easy to get from Crude unless you target it. Diesel is actually a lot like plant oil, which is one of many reasons why biodiesel production is possible. It's interesting that some folks are starting to target direct production of diesel from bioengineered algae, which if you think about it, is pretty much how we get crude to begin with. No interceding steps--just big shallow tanks on non-arable land being skimmed. There's even a scheme for using highway medians for the tanks and skimming with freeway-traveling converter trucks. In the short term there will be schemes and speculators, in the long term oil from the ground will be a lot less important. At least it better be. The supply of oil in the world is huge, but finite. On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > This is an exerpt from a larger article - apparently the refining > process is > not what most of us assume. > "Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil > refineries tend > to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. > Most U.S. > refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each > barrel of > crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the > remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied > petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and > most of > the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which > produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that > barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel > production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that > minimizes the > production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the > stuff, so > it exports it to America-about one of every eight gallons of > gasoline that > we consume. " > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Curry" > To: "Chuck Arnold" ; ; "Friends" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To > Read > > >> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand >> requires >> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is >> trying to >> reach prices double thatof gasiline? It seems that the people >> influencing >> these prices are trying to send a message to people not to convert to >> diesel >> power even though it is supposed to be more efficient. >> >> Joe C. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chuck Arnold" >> To: ; "Friends" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [Fot] Oil - Since Triumphs Drip, Its Worth A Minute To >> Read >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as s.janzen at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From mark at bradakis.com Wed Jun 4 20:31:01 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:31:01 -0600 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Hillclimb and Autocross project car for sale $750 In-Reply-To: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <005901c8c4c4$d24328f0$6601a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <48474FE5.2030202@bradakis.com> Boy, am I glad that car is so far away from me! My first Triumph was a GT6, and I want another one some day. mjb. From DSPGTi at aol.com Wed Jun 4 21:05:00 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:05:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: Let me give you a little observation. You can judge if it has any merit. Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb, in a town in Pennsylvania of the same name. The hillclimb was originally run many years ago when hillclimbs in the East were actually part of the SCCA National Championship. It was held on the property of the Hershey Foods Company (the Hershey Bar and Hershey Kisses) on an access road to the Hershey Hotel. In order to bring back the event the organizers convinced the Hershey Company that it was going to be a "Historic Event" and that a significant piece or racing history was going to be preserved. The first year had a modest turn out but some of the cars that showed had significant racing history and created a lot of interest. I ran my TR4 that year and once more two years later. The second year didn't see much improvement and there were a lot of questions about adequate insurance coverage. The organizers approached the Antique Automobile Club of America which is headquartered in Hershey, PA as well. Yes, they could bring to the table a suitable insurance coverage package. The only problem was by their standards (AACA) cars would qualify if they were 25 years old. The next couple of years, the numbers of entries increased. Just this year they had 70 some entries, about twice the number from the start. Think that is good? By my observation very few cars and racing significance this year. I personally had no interest in running there. My reason for being there was I rented out my 1980 ITC Rabbit to someone who had an interest in getting into "Vintage" racing. The field had a mixture of up to date SCCA cars (a bunch of current hillclimb cars from our PHA group), Bugeyes with Rotary motors, Legends cars with motorcycle motors a few C4 (1984 up) Corvettes. There were maybe a half to a dozen authentic Vintage cars. A few people asked me, "Where did the cool cars go?" "What happened to the old Jags and the AC Bristol's and stuff like that"? "How come you don't have your TR out"? "What the hell is that"? pointing the Legends car. We will see what the future brings for the Hershey Historic Hillclimb, but I won't give it much chance for survival. Most vintage drivers don't want to go back and spectators aren't getting what they came to see. They certainly didn't come out to see a Rabbit. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 21:51:54 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Message-ID: <656786.78875.qm@web53509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> but a spitfire that looks like a spitfire that runs spitfire components (including SU's not webers) and is well prepared and runs well on the track is different than a bunch of cars that have been modified with all kinds of different combinations I would bet that if I were to enter the WGI event this fall, my car would garner as much attention as some of the "classic" prepared cars. It looks like a spitfire that is a race car. No different than many others that will be there except a little wider. Alot of people have commented on how we improved this or that or I remember when I had one and it must be a blast to drive. The car is not a bastardization of 2 or more cars under a spitfire shell, it is a car that just happens to have fiberglass and wider tires. The lines are clean and the car is recognizable to enthusiasts. ----- Original Message ---- From: "DSPGTi at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fpspitfire at comcast.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 11:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] other venues to SCCA - Final Thoughts Let me give you a little observation. You can judge if it has any merit. Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb, in a town in Pennsylvania of the same name. The hillclimb was originally run many years ago when hillclimbs in the East were actually part of the SCCA National Championship. It was held on the property of the Hershey Foods Company (the Hershey Bar and Hershey Kisses) on an access road to the Hershey Hotel. In order to bring back the event the organizers convinced the Hershey Company that it was going to be a "Historic Event" and that a significant piece or racing history was going to be preserved. The first year had a modest turn out but some of the cars that showed had significant racing history and created a lot of interest. I ran my TR4 that year and once more two years later. The second year didn't see much improvement and there were a lot of questions about adequate insurance coverage. The organizers approached the Antique Automobile Club of America which is headquartered in Hershey, PA as well. Yes, they could bring to the table a suitable insurance coverage package. The only problem was by their standards (AACA) cars would qualify if they were 25 years old. The next couple of years, the numbers of entries increased. Just this year they had 70 some entries, about twice the number from the start. Think that is good? By my observation very few cars and racing significance this year. I personally had no interest in running there. My reason for being there was I rented out my 1980 ITC Rabbit to someone who had an interest in getting into "Vintage" racing. The field had a mixture of up to date SCCA cars (a bunch of current hillclimb cars from our PHA group), Bugeyes with Rotary motors, Legends cars with motorcycle motors a few C4 (1984 up) Corvettes. There were maybe a half to a dozen authentic Vintage cars. A few people asked me, "Where did the cool cars go?" "What happened to the old Jags and the AC Bristol's and stuff like that"? "How come you don't have your TR out"? "What the hell is that"? pointing the Legends car. We will see what the future brings for the Hershey Historic Hillclimb, but I won't give it much chance for survival. Most vintage drivers don't want to go back and spectators aren't getting what they came to see. They certainly didn't come out to see a Rabbit. Dave Y. ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From N197TR4 at cs.com Thu Jun 5 08:42:48 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:42:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status Message-ID: FOT, The last conversation I had with I - J Crank scrapers indicated that steel was being processed. We also worked on verifying details where there were variations of component configurations. Crower/Moldex/OEM Cranks, etc. A number of FOT took care of us on these non-oem configurations by working with I - J prior to this PROJECT. Thanks mostly the forward thinking West Coast Guys. One west coaster has received his system and reports that he is extremely pleased with I - J on their cooperation for design for his scraper, and alloy pan configured windage tray. I suspect that shipping will start in a couple of weeks, but I dont have a specfic schedule for shipping yet. I have (12) invoices paid out of (28) systems ordered. I am not cashing these checks yet as I have only been billed for the material so far. But I expect the balance shortly. If anyone decides that this system is worth considering for their Triumph Engine, at this point, please contact me. Regards, Joe Alexander From triosan at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 09:14:29 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:14:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806050814r46acbd92s5ba396182e001934@mail.gmail.com> Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their block/crank]. Went in when the engine was out. There was a little interference on the tray, but the grinder fixed that straight away. I was concerned when I assembled it that the interference with the oil pump on install would not allow me to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. No interference on the tray. Chuck On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:42 AM, wrote: > FOT, > > The last conversation I had with I - J Crank scrapers indicated that steel > was being processed. We also worked on verifying details where there were > variations of component configurations. Crower/Moldex/OEM Cranks, etc. > > A number of FOT took care of us on these non-oem configurations by working > with > I - J prior to this PROJECT. Thanks mostly the forward thinking West Coast > Guys. > > One west coaster has received his system and reports that he is extremely > pleased with I - J on their cooperation for design for his scraper, and > alloy > pan configured windage tray. > > I suspect that shipping will start in a couple of weeks, but I dont have a > specfic schedule for shipping yet. > > I have (12) invoices paid out of (28) systems ordered. I am not cashing > these checks yet as I have only been billed for the material so far. But I > expect > the balance shortly. > > If anyone decides that this system is worth considering for their Triumph > Engine, at this point, please contact me. > > Regards, > > Joe Alexander > > > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as triosan at gmail.com > -- Chuck Arnold From N197TR4 at cs.com Thu Jun 5 09:35:18 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:35:18 EDT Subject: [Fot] Thanks Chuck...Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status Message-ID: Chuck....Since I have no experience yet, this is encouraging and useful information....and thanks for breaking the ground on this feature. Joe Alexander > Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from > crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their block/crank]. Went in > when the engine was out. There was a little interference on the tray, but > the grinder fixed that straight away. I was concerned when I assembled it that > the interference with the oil pump on install would not allow me to remove > the oil pan with the engine in the car. > > I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. > Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two > small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. No > interference on the tray. > > Chuck > From hottr6 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:06:25 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:06:25 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joe Curry asked: > Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires > less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to > reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for) ULS diesel for many years You will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to. I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is due to the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust now smells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From triosan at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:16:19 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:16:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Thanks Chuck...Scraper & Windage Tray Project-Status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806050916k6de1704akb78078f0439a1794@mail.gmail.com> Forgot to mention, the one thing that made installing it while engine in the car is that I have switched to using studs and nuts to hold on the pan. The studs allow the scraper and spacer to be held in place when installed to there is a way to place them in and then install the pan with the windage tray in it. There are pictures of my first install [engine out] are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/WindageTrayScraprerAndStuds Chuck On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:35 AM, wrote: > Chuck....Since I have no experience yet, this is encouraging and useful > information....and thanks for breaking the ground on this feature. > > Joe Alexander > > > Just an update. A couple of years ago I got the first one from > crank-scrapers [they used my oil pan, oil pump and rod and their > block/crank]. Went in when the engine was out. There was a little > interference on the tray, but the grinder fixed that straight away. I was > concerned when I assembled it that the interference with the oil pump on > install would not allow me to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. > > > I just recently got the new unit. Installed it with the engine in the car. > Included the teflon scrapers. Went in very easy. Just had to relieve two > small places where the scraper hit some part of the crank. Very pleased. > No interference on the tray. > > Chuck > > > > -- Chuck Arnold From hottr6 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:16:50 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:16:50 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Herschey Hillclimb [was other venues to SCCA...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave Y. wrote: > Several years ago, a group got together and revived the Hershey Hillclimb I have done Hershey, and it is a great climb, one of the better in PA. Yes, there are a mix of cars (even a Modified!). Hillclimbs have never been about "just vintage cars", so if you go to a hillclimb expecting just a particular group of cars, you will be disappointed. However, that is not the allure of hillclimbs. Like drag racing and autoX, it is the variety of cars that makes it fun and interesting. I've seen ex-NASCAR, ex-F1, go-carts and specials on steroids, in addition to the more easily identified vehicles based on production cars. Hillclimbs do not make great spectator events, and are more oriented towards drivers. I highly recommend them. I wonder if they ever have hillclimbs up Sandia Peak in ABQ? Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 10:41:26 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:41:26 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: Message-ID: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't have any diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had no reason to check. The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. Thanks, Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Ingate To: spitlist at cox.net Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for)ULS diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. From rhlamp at babcock.com Thu Jun 5 10:57:16 2008 From: rhlamp at babcock.com (Lamp, Randy H) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:57:16 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Off Subject In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> Can anyone tell me how I can get taken off the list? I find the information to be informative and interesting ,but emails are currently coming to my office computer and they are starting to frown on this kind of thing. If at all possible I would like to be removed only temporarily until other arrangements can be made. I contacted the administrator about two months ago but heard nothing in return. Thanks for any assistance you might be able to provide. Great site ,great people! R. Lamp -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rhlamp=babcock.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rhlamp=babcock.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:41 PM To: Shane Ingate Cc: Friends of Triumph Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't have any diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had no reason to check. The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. Thanks, Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Ingate To: spitlist at cox.net Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel (which I understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore should be cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years ago, the US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not only required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to produce than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying for)ULS diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less smoky exhaust than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the exhaust, and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are using. The exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central NM. Needless to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- - Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rhlamp at babcock.com ----------------------------------------- This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and contains information that is proprietary to The Babcock & Wilcox Company and/or its affiliates, or may be otherwise confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message from your computer. Thank you. From Billb at bnj.com Thu Jun 5 10:59:12 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:59:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's On Jun 5, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > I have to admit that I was not aware of the change and since I don't > have any > diesel engines (and in light of the cost probably never will) I had > no reason > to check. > > The Triumph lists are a good source of information, I find. > > Thanks, > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shane Ingate > To: spitlist at cox.net > Cc: Friends of Triumph > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:06 AM > Subject: Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > > > Joe Curry asked:> Can anyone explain to me why the cost of Diesel > (which I > understand requires> less refining than gasoline and therefore > should be > cheaper) is trying to> reach prices double thatof gasiline? 2 years > ago, the > US shifted to using ultra-low sulphur content in diesel. This not > only > required reconfiguring the refineries, but it IS more expensive to > produce > than unleaded. The rest of the world has been using (and paying > for)ULS > diesel for many yearsYou will note that trucks produce far less > smoky exhaust > than they used to.I have a '08 Duramax and there is zero soot in the > exhaust, > and this is dueto the new "catalytic" converters that Cheby are > using. The > exhaust nowsmells more like propane. Diesel is $4.90 in central > NM. Needless > to say, my truck only gets used for work.Shane Ingate in NM > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites > through > Windows Live Messenger. Learn How. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 11:28:07 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:28:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> Message-ID: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Babcock To: Joe Curry Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 4 20:32:18 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:32:18 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <004801c8c6b4$6098f8f0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> The new Malibu has gotten great reviews, and is IMOHO far from ugly. Probably very comfy and safe. That class of car now gets very good mileage on the hiway, if that will be the type of commute you are forced to do. That said..... Nother alternative is to find some type of work very close to home, and really save energy. That is what I am doing, and I love not having to get gussied and saddled up every morning for a tiresome, expensive trek to an office where I feel uncomfortable all day, only to have to go back and do it all over again the next morning. I'm making less, spending less, and having a much better time of it. Best wishes! Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Curry" To: "Bill Babcock" Cc: "Shane Ingate" ; "Friends of Triumph" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and > I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting > another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been > workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry > about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit > hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when > towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another > vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder > that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So > If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. > > Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Babcock > To: Joe Curry > Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] > > > The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes > something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 > and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as > expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 > gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider > gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 > Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm > riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 > MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. > > > If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an > electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four > strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental > conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit > more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 5 12:00:09 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:00:09 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > So If I will be commuting, I have > to find another > vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 5 12:06:21 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:06:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Off Subject In-Reply-To: <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <7FA88107750C4A4AAEC20665BBC77AB6013F2F04@barbpo3.bwes.net> Message-ID: <000001c8c736$dc3ebe40$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Can anyone tell me how I can get taken off the list? At the bottom of every message is a link to a web page. Eg, > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot Go to that page, to the last box, fill in your email address (rhlamp at babcock.com) and click the button that says "Unsubscribe ...". Randall From herald948 at aol.com Thu Jun 5 12:51:26 2008 From: herald948 at aol.com (Andrew Mace) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:51:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... In-Reply-To: <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Randall Joe mused: > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. Randall replied: Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? ==AM== My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-) --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) Triumph 10 / Herald / Sports 6 vehicle consultant for The Vintage Triumph Register Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database at its new URL: From trmarty at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 13:11:37 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:11:37 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... In-Reply-To: <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm gonna guess Joe will be looking for something with air conditioning for a daily driver :) Marty > To: fot at autox.team.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:51:26 -0400> From: herald948 at aol.com> Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...> > -----Original Message-----> From: Randall > > Joe mused:> > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets > considerably better mileage.> > Randall replied:> > Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ?> > ==AM==> My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 > or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able > to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-)> > --Andy Mace> > *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet?> *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, > Triumph Herald engine with wings.> -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22)> > Triumph 10 / Herald / Sports 6 vehicle consultant for The Vintage > Triumph Register > > Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph > Herald Database at its new URL: > _______________________________________________> http://www.team.net/donate.html> > Fot mailing list> Fot at autox.team.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot> > You are subscribed as trmarty at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 5 13:31:44 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:31:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com><005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin><01b301c8c735$fe475160$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <8CA95544AF668E3-16BC-247F@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c8c742$c9bdfea0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> To be perfectly frank, I have never been able to achieve the sort of fuel mileage with any Spit that people tell me that they are getting. Maybe it's the way I drive. But that alone is the reason I have never considered buildingaSpit for that purpose. Plus I already have a garage full of Spits that I would never leave parked on a lot all day. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Mace" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip... > -----Original Message----- > From: Randall > > Joe mused: > > So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets > considerably better mileage. > > Randall replied: > > Just a thought, Joe, why not buy (or build) a Spit for the street ? > > ==AM== > My thoughts exactly. Grab a good 1500 with OD, maybe even go to a 3.63 > or 3.27 diff as well to keep revs down, and you probably would be able > to average low to mid-30s for MPG without trying. ;-) From kaskas at cox.net Thu Jun 5 14:29:43 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something there that can respond. From BillDentin at aol.com Thu Jun 5 15:29:09 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:29:09 EDT Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging Message-ID: **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Return-path: From: BillDentin at aol.com Full-name: BillDentin Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:24:49 EDT Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging To: kaskas at cox.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10721 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 1.01d X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 06/05/2008 3:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time, kaskas at cox.net writes: > Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > I am not surprised. The ex-Executive Vice President of Operations for Nissan Performance Technology, Inc., knew his onions and pretty much got them on the right track. Can't think of his name right now. R. W. something. Bill (Damdinger) ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitfiresuz at 141.com Thu Jun 5 15:51:10 2008 From: spitfiresuz at 141.com (spitfiresuz at 141.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:51:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: <380-22008645215110924@M2W023.mail2web.com> 23-25 mpg? Ha. I get 40-45 in my little car: http://i29.tinypic.com/30uuviw.jpg Unfortunately, when I stand on it, I got nuthin'. The only necks snapping are when people see me go by! ;) Susan :) PS - I drove it to work Tuesday in the small town I work in and created a hullabaloo in the parking lot all day long. The next day a sergeant in the police department called my office and asked if anyone in the office was the owner of the little yellow car. I tentatively said, "Um, that would be me." He said, "What kind of car was that!?!" I had to laugh. :) Original Message: ----------------- From: Kas Kastner kaskas at cox.net Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:43 -0700 To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg... -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com  What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint From tlizzard at msn.com Thu Jun 5 16:01:26 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:01:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging References: Message-ID: My daily driver is a 2003 Honda Civic SI hatchback. Two liter twin cam,160 BHP, and the ability to run 130mph, *ahem* or so they say *ahem*. In my daily running around town I get 25mpg, on the highway running 70~75 on the "snooze control" it delivers 35mpg. It's fun to toss around, (for a front wheel driver anyway), and has been reliable as a stone. Does it all on regular gas too. Terry Stetler. From greenman62 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 16:15:27 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:15:27 +0000 Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale Message-ID: It looks like I'll be heading West in the late summer... For those who know me know this really isn't a surprise. My job was eliminated last September. It was the primary thing that was keeping me in the Midwest since my wife died. My family is on the West Coast and I wanted to get closer to them ( you can't properly spoil Grandchildren long distance). I took the opportunity to "go freelance" (which is graphic designers, photogs talk for "I'm sort of unemployed"). I'm also exploring what this "partial retirement" thing is like... so far I've been plenty busy. My old employer has had me back for work on a number of occasions (at consultant wages), getting my house ready to sell, taking a web design course at the local community college and waiting the arrival of my second grand kid. Maybelle Bridgid arrived on schedule late in March. She's beautiful, smart, strong and did I mention beautiful? I passed the Web Design course with flying colors, and "Castle Pretentious" sold after only 10 days on the market. Closing is in September so I have to get out to Oregon and find someplace to live before I become "homeless". I hope I can catch up with you all before I relocate. I'll be at Blackhawk Farms next weekend, I don't think I'll be able to make the KIC. I'm scheduled to work the race weekend at the Autobahn in July. Other than that I'm really not sure what my calendar will hold for the rest of the summer. Of course if your racing schedules take you west of the Rockies I'll still be covering and going to vintage races ( the folks at Victory Lane said the would keep me busy) in the Northwest. All the best to you all, Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From kaskas at cox.net Thu Jun 5 16:21:22 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:21:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Regrets Message-ID: <009a01c8c75a$7c5af920$3a16c548@RW> Sorry I brought up the mileage subject, hello Greyhound. From earthron at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:14:42 2008 From: earthron at yahoo.com (Ron Jones) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My daily driver is a 98 Mercury Grand Marquise. The mileage is not bad for a big boat, 16 town and 24.8 on the last 700mile, 70+mph cruise. Ron 1958 TR3A in process 1963 TR4 Race Car Kas Kastner wrote: Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 nia street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something there that can respond. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as earthron at yahoo.com From jibjib at att.net Thu Jun 5 17:58:04 2008 From: jibjib at att.net (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:58:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ac01c8c767$ff816c50$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Welcome home (soon) Greg, Jack Seattle -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of greenman62 at hotmail.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:15 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] A Change of Locale It looks like I'll be heading West in the late summer... For those who know me know this really isn't a surprise. My job was eliminated last September. It was the primary thing that was keeping me in the Midwest since my wife died. My family is on the West Coast and I wanted to get closer to them ( you can't properly spoil Grandchildren long distance). I took the opportunity to "go freelance" (which is graphic designers, photogs talk for "I'm sort of unemployed"). I'm also exploring what this "partial retirement" thing is like... so far I've been plenty busy. My old employer has had me back for work on a number of occasions (at consultant wages), getting my house ready to sell, taking a web design course at the local community college and waiting the arrival of my second grand kid. Maybelle Bridgid arrived on schedule late in March. She's beautiful, smart, strong and did I mention beautiful? I passed the Web Design course with flying colors, and "Castle Pretentious" sold after only 10 days on the market. Closing is in September so I have to get out to Oregon and find someplace to live before I become "homeless". I hope I can catch up with you all before I relocate. I'll be at Blackhawk Farms next weekend, I don't think I'll be able to make the KIC. I'm scheduled to work the race weekend at the Autobahn in July. Other than that I'm really not sure what my calendar will hold for the rest of the summer. Of course if your racing schedules take you west of the Rockies I'll still be covering and going to vintage races ( the folks at Victory Lane said the would keep me busy) in the Northwest. All the best to you all, Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 5 20:13:34 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:13:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR3 at auction Message-ID: <864E932F43644AB7AA7847F564C92A6F@SohlPC> >From my latest issue of Old Cars Weekly... At the Worldwide Houston Classic auction (Seabrook, TX 5/3/08) 1963 TR-3B sold for $40,700 (no other info available) Cheers Bill Sohl From greenman62 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 20:17:43 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:17:43 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> <788670.45032.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > My daily driver is a 98 Mercury Grand Marquise. The mileage is not bad for a big boat, 16 town and 24.8 on the last 700mile, 70+mph cruise. I guess I'll chime in here. My 2002 Audi TT quattro commonly gives ~30mpg on the highway also cruising at 70+. I originally bought it used as a toy car. It quickly proved itself to be more practical for me than the family hauler, a 2002, A4 bought new several years before my wife passed away. Great aerodynamics, I guess. Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 5 20:54:27 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:54:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: I get 40+ miles to the gallon. I hate almost every second of being in that car, a 2000 Toyota Corolla. It is a piece of SH-T. With a 120,000miles, it is practically worn out. I am asked by every ethinic nationality if I want to sell it. "What on earth you do want this piece of crap for" is my reponse. " Oh, they are great cars" is thier response. "To each his own" I say. Dave Y **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From timmurph at fastbytes.com Thu Jun 5 22:13:33 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:13:33 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <001001c8c78b$af91d210$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> In 1997 my daughter and I took a hiking vacation in Glacier National Park in Montana. We both live in Wisconsin. It was a little bit over 4000 miles. Took a lot of side trips on the "back" roads. I had a new 1997 BMW 328is. We averaged 26 MPG for the trip with a low of 23 MPG when we drove back across Montana on Highway 2 cruising at around 120 MPH between towns. No speed limit in Montana then, just "reasonable and prudent" or maybe "proper". Seemed reasonable to me. Passed one trooper going the other way at about 100. High mileage for the trip was the last leg in Wisconsin when I was taking it easy, got 32 MPG then. Car still gets 28 to 30 MPG on the highway, maybe a bit more if I keep my foot out of it. Not bad for a "perfomance" car. Tim Murphy 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging > Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like > 23-25 > mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably > never > pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a > SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense > though. > > My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern > California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of > California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better > gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry > what > ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu Thu Jun 5 22:53:57 2008 From: JackBrooks at alumni.duke.edu (Jack Brooks) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:53:57 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] In-Reply-To: <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <003c01c8c72a$ffda2760$2d02a8c0@Belkin><04B5DD80-576C-491F-9084-FD09DA1CA095@bnj.com> <005d01c8c731$85562780$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <00c801c8c791$550fe6f0$cb01a8c0@HPPavilion> Joe, I picked up an 06 Malibu LS from my company (employee car) with 60K on it. I did my research first, as I figured the Malibu would be an appliance. It's not. It's based on GM's Epsilon chassis (Saab 9-3, Opel Vectra Pontiac Future? Grand AM & Saturn LS??, etc.) The seats are great, the suspension configuration common across platforms (shocks/springs differ) etc, and my mixed driving keeps the mileage between 29 and 32. Oh, four wheel disk brakes, rear IRS, side air bags, etc. Do some research on GM's Epsilon platform cars. It's no sports car, but I'm impressed with the value. Jack -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jibjib=att.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:28 AM To: Bill Babcock Cc: Shane Ingate; Friends of Triumph Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] A couple of weeks ago, I was notified that my job is being moved off shore and I will be effectively unemployed as of August 15. In anticipation of getting another job, I will likely have to start commuting again. I have been workingfrom home for the past 9 years so I felt like I didn't have to worry about thecost of commuting and bought an Avalanche to tow my double deck Spit hauler. It gets about 18 mpg on the highway (not towing) and about 12 when towing the loaded trailer. So If I will be commuting, I have to find another vehicle that gets considerably better mileage. I am A GM MasterCard holder that earns a percentage of allcharges toward purchase of any GM vehicle. So If I have to get an ugly econo-box, I guess it would have to be a GM product. Anybody have a suggestion of a good choice? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Babcock To: Joe Curry Cc: Shane Ingate ; Friends of Triumph Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Cost of diesel [was Oil - Since Triumphs Drip...] The ballpark calculation of Diesel vs. Gas for towing generally goes something like this: I get 14 MPG towing a heavy race car trailer with my F350 and 9 MPG or less with my Yukon Denali. Diesel has to be nearly twice as expensive to deliver the same cost per mile. Around town with no tow my F350 gets 16 MPG, so I don't use it unless I need to carry something. My 360 spider gets 22MPG on average and delivers about 400 TPG (thrills per gallon). My FZ1 Yamaha gets a little over 50MPG and my FJR1200 gets a little over 39. I'm riding the FZ a lot these days. My Honda CA95 (1962 150 Dream) gets over 75 MPG but I look like a complete dork driving it. If you really want to avoid using gas, start pumping pedals or get an electric bicycle. Or a Honda step through. Those little and very light four strokes from the sixties get over 100MPG. If you have any environmental conscience to speak of it's tough to justify a two stroke scooter--they emit more emission products than a small fleet of SUV's Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jibjib at att.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of Epislon commonality.doc] From fubog1 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 05:17:15 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:17:15 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging 300-400 mpg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA95DE023C3C5A-530-458F@WEBMAIL-DC19.sysops.aol.com> yeah well my trusty old Land Rover gets 300-400 miles per gallon.... of oil... Glen ps- and it will go faster than 45 mph, downhill... -----Original Message----- From: Terry Stetler To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Mileage bragging My daily driver is a 2003 Honda Civic SI hatchback. Two liter twin cam,160 BHP, and the ability to run 130mph, *ahem* or so they say *ahem*. In my daily running around town I get 25mpg, on the highway running 70~75 on the "snooze control" it delivers 35mpg. It's fun to toss around, (for a front wheel driver anyway), and has been reliable as a stone. Does it all on regular gas too. Terry Stetler. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From gaf3 at charter.net Fri Jun 6 06:31:14 2008 From: gaf3 at charter.net (Glenn Franco) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:31:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> References: <003d01c8c74a$e3503150$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <48492E12.20201@charter.net> My daily driver is a 1991 Mercedes 300D (285,000 mile diesel), fuel is a bit pricey ($4.75) in Michigan but it gets ~28 around town and 32 on the highway. It loves to cruise above 80 mph but getting there takes forever. When I'm really in a pinch for fuel economy, I drive my 82 VW rabbit pickup diesel that gets routinely 44 mpg around town and can haul (6 ft bed) most of what I need. On the other hand I'm moving my daughter from Michigan to Arizona this summer with our motor home that averages 6 mpg. My fuel bills should generate interesting conversation. Glenn Franco Kas Kastner wrote: > Okay everyone says to buy a little car so you can average something like 23-25 > mpg. Buying a car because of the cost of gas is silly and will probably never > pay for the capital investment. Buying a high mileage car because of a > SHORTAGE of gasoline, such as we had in the early '70's makes sense though. > > My Nissan Maxima 6 speed is giving me 19.5 - 19-7 in normal Southern > California street traffic and upwards of 28-29 at 75 on cruise. Out of > California the same car get in the low 30's at the same speeds. (better > gasoline with out the Cal additives) Nice piece and big enough to carry what > ever you like. Then anytime I want to stand on the gas there is something > there that can respond. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as gaf3 at charter.net From spreiss at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 15:39:03 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:39:03 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Group I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the concept of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a major factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, like the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the grand prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of bench engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! Steve P. From JWoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 06:52:29 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:52:29 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:42:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, spreiss at verizon.net writes: Group I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the concept of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a major factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, like the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the grand prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of bench engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! Steve P. This might be interesting as a project for current pro and club level events, but it isn't something we would embrace as vintage racers at vintage events. Vintage racers are "part of the racing community" but our segment, by it's very nature, is not conducive to new concepts. Since this list has both vintage racers and current racers, as well as street car folks, I am only speaking for the vintage racer segment. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From lang at isis.mit.edu Fri Jun 6 07:00:15 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm not an expert in the area, but "index of performance" was a factor in days of yore. Not to be a wise-guy, but it seems that the French used index of performance to make sure that a french team got some mention at Le Mans once or twice in the past. :-) -ducking for cover- rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From spreiss at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 16:21:55 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:21:55 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> With the current state of oil production and global politics, the can has pretty much been opened for us. The question remains, whether we as vintage enthusiasts are willing (able?) to broaden our perspective to include current concerns, or become increasingly limited in our appeal to those outside of our immediate, aging group. The public's initial interest in our cars when they were first introduced to this country was based in large part on their efficiency. Vintage does I agree carry other potent appeals, based in part on nostalgia and historic preservation, but equally on creativity (i.e. how do I make this old crate perform better than someone else can and stay within the rules). In my mind there no need to sacrifice these goals/ideals by introducing an aspect that is of growing concern to all who live on the planet. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig" To: ; Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > I'm with Jack on this......we could open a can of worms > Craig > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:42:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > spreiss at verizon.net writes: > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool > > if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our > > groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. > > Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport > > in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > > > > > > > This might be interesting as a project for current pro and club level > > events, but it isn't something we would embrace as vintage racers at > > vintage events. > > > > Vintage racers are "part of the racing community" but our segment, by > > it's > > very nature, is not conducive to new concepts. > > > > Since this list has both vintage racers and current racers, as well as > > street car folks, I am only speaking for the vintage racer segment. > > > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as wensley_tr at comcast.net From jwoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 07:40:49 2008 From: jwoesvra at aol.com (jwoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:40:49 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <8CA95F2102F864C-1038-50@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com> <<<>>> Certainly a worthy subject. Just not something we (vintage) would be able or willing to mandate, that's all. I have no problem with voluntary experimentation by individuals. However, I think it might have merits at the current club level and even pro level, to promote awareness in new concepts. It could be another way to score enduros at the club level. I don't think you need add-on flow meters. Just have everyone fill their tanks at the start and keep track of how much you put in during the race, and then top up at the end. jw From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 09:08:15 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00011BC3-5E73-42B4-A51F-F4C9345C2B85@bnj.com> Absolutely correct. I'm interested in fuel performance but only in a market sense. What we're watching is largely manipulated fuel cost (not just our friends in the gulf, but lots of speculators everywhere) but it's a good thing in many ways. We're FINALLY seeing some elasticity effects--people are taking action and interest in conserving resources is growing. I always believed (hoped) the market would compensate for increase demand for resources and a shrinking pie. I'm relieved to see it working so powerfully as it always does. Of course there's a lot of goofiness and running off in the wrong directions. But that's human nature. The weak and stupid approaches will die (unless the government gets involved in propping them up) and the world will ultimately be a little better off. On Jun 6, 2008, at 6:00 AM, Robert Lang wrote: > Hi, > > I'm not an expert in the area, but "index of performance" was a > factor in > days of yore. Not to be a wise-guy, but it seems that the French used > index of performance to make sure that a french team got some > mention at > Le Mans once or twice in the past. > > :-) > > -ducking for cover- > > rml > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent > Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! > Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 09:20:30 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:20:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop> <001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a good example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, we wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet from global warming. Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. On Jun 5, 2008, at 3:21 PM, Steven Preiss wrote: > With the current state of oil production and global politics, the > can has > pretty much been opened for us. The question remains, whether we as > vintage > enthusiasts are willing (able?) to broaden our perspective to include > current concerns, or become increasingly limited in our appeal to > those > outside of our immediate, aging group. The public's initial interest > in our > cars when they were first introduced to this country was based in > large part > on their efficiency. Vintage does I agree carry other potent > appeals, based > in part on nostalgia and historic preservation, but equally on > creativity > (i.e. how do I make this old crate perform better than someone else > can and > stay within the rules). In my mind there no need to sacrifice these > goals/ideals by introducing an aspect that is of growing concern to > all who > live on the planet. > Steve P. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 09:35:11 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:35:11 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: My old 66 Mini 850 got 40-50 mpg back in 1972...drove it to work every day....you could still blow off any chevy for a 100 feet....wish I still had it ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 09:43:31 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:43:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Yeah, Me Too! Not because I think their intensions are not good but because if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would scrap that old car instead of selling it. By selling it, the care remains out there polluting and burning just as much fuel. Plus people who buy old cars typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse polluters. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Steven Preiss" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong > direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would > infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a good > example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, we > wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet > from global warming. > > Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 > MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 09:54:41 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: When we moved to Maryland from California in 2000, we rented a Crown Vic (the TR6 and our '91 Civic SI was a bit small for the trip that included 2 Rotties). I specifically ordered a white CV, and I stuck on an antenna, wore a crisp blue shirt and aviator glasses, and cruised at 90+ mph the whole way. Passed many cruisers going the opposite way and I waved to the nice policemen. They waved back. 28 mpg for the trip. A similar trip in a heavily laden rented Buick LeSabre (speed limits observed) netted 32 mpg. My '91 Civic SI gets 35 mpg in my 30 mile rural commute, but that includes 5 miles of dirt and a 3,000' elevation change each way (I coast to work, but it is an uphill climb on the way home). The elevation of 7,500' does not help my mileage, and it gets pretty breathless up some steep hills. I've been looking at superchargers. The dog hauler (a '99 Taurus wagon) gets 25 mpg on the same commute (no coasting). The turbocharged Duramax gets 18 mpg, and says "what hill?" Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 6 10:30:12 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:30:12 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: Message-ID: Bring back the "Index of Performance"? I can see it now, 40 Crosley Hotshots teetering around Mid Ohio. HEHE!!!!! Terry Stetler. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 10:37:03 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:37:03 EDT Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From John.Reed at wilson.com Fri Jun 6 10:39:46 2008 From: John.Reed at wilson.com (John Reed) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:39:46 -0500 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And a few Imps On 6/6/08 11:37 AM, "REK46 at aol.com" wrote: > followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans > > > ************** > Get trade > secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > > > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as john.reed at wilson.com Regards, John Reed Global Staff Photographer Creative Services Wilson Sporting Goods Co. 8750 W Bryn Mawr Ave, Chicago, Illinois 60631, USA Tel. + 1.773.714.6895, fax +1.773.714.4585 John.Reed at wilson.com www.wilson.com www.amersports.com This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 11:04:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:04:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean. if you consider the total energy costs of producing a new car, there isn't a sufficient resource saving for that added 10 MPG to justify a new one. If you want to contribute then keep your car much longer, drive less, carpool, maintain your car well, keep your tires properly inflated to the high side. It's trivial, but it's actually positive. Trading your Hyundai for a Prius is a fashion statement. Nothing more. Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But that doesn't mean I can't do math. The media loves this story--it appeals to their smug and monumentally uninformed self-righteousness and it's good copy. I loved all the NASCAR stories about fuel being a big deal for the teams. The stories were ALL written manipulatively, to make it seem like race fuel was the issue. Only if you read past the second paragraph (which any weasel mind-manipulator like me knows 90 percent of the readers won't do) do you discover that they were talking about fuel for the airplanes that they transport the teams with. It's just cynical marketing for event promoters like Nascar to prattle about fuel considerations. Amid 50,000 cars in the parking lot at a typical race, each carrying 1.3 people. Teams flying in with a fleet of Citations or the three Roush 727's, fifty cars driving 500 miles is a fart in a hurricane. You've got to admire the blatant duplicity. This morning on Good Morning they had extensive coverage of the goofballs climbing New York skyscrapers, with all the hosts looking very concerned about copycats and how illegal it all was. Then they announced they were going to have an exclusive interview with the french guy who's climbing...wait for it...to protest global warming. The first copycat weenie had to dream something up on the spot--all he could come up with was "to make people aware of the dangers of malaria". I nearly blew coffee out my nose. What a wonderful world. On Jun 6, 2008, at 8:43 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > Yeah, Me Too! Not because I think their intensions are not good but > because > if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would > scrap that > old car instead of selling it. By selling it, the care remains out > there > polluting and burning just as much fuel. Plus people who buy old cars > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > polluters. > > Joe C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Babcock" > To: "Steven Preiss" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > >> Actually I'd characterize that among the "running off in the wrong >> direction" ideas. The cost--even just in resources consumed--would >> infinitely overwhelm the value. I know, I know, we'd be setting a >> good >> example--a justification for all kinds of pointless effort. But no, >> we >> wouldn't. It's Sharon Crow touring the US in a bus to save the planet >> from global warming. >> >> Every time I hear of someone selling their 20 MPG car to buy a new 35 >> MPG car because it will be "good for the planet" I want to puke. > _______________________________________________ From greenman62 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:20:34 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > that doesn't mean I can't do math. If I had to guess you probably don't drive your Ferrari every day. When you do, you drive it for your health... `cos it make you feel good. Now that's real soul food! Greg Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... From billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 11:22:42 2008 From: billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:22:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: <667E58DD-CC5A-468D-9CC9-90EA45E42235@bnj.com> Actually it's my daily driver--I don't own a different car. But I ride my motorcycle more than drive--always have. On Jun 6, 2008, at 10:20 AM, wrote: > > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > > that doesn't mean I can't do math. > > If I had to guess you probably don't drive your Ferrari every day. > > When you do, you drive it for your health... `cos it make you feel > good. Now that's real soul food! > > Greg > > Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My > car's just marking its territory... > > > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:57:19 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:57:19 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus Message-ID: Joe Curry wrote: ...if they really were interested in "saving the planet" They would scrap that old car instead of selling it. My understanding is that it is far better economics and less taxing on natural resources to keep the old klunker going. Most of the pollution caused by a car during its lifetime (cradle-to-grave) is during its manufacture and disposal, not when it is used on the road. I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than building a Tahoe. What tipped the scales was the manufacturing of the battery. The nickel is mined in the US, processed in Poland, refined in Japan, assembled into the battery in Canada, and then installed into the car in Japan. The nickel travels around the world 3 times. Don't even ask about the cost of disposing of this toxic mess. Prius owners are in for a real shock come time to replace the batteries. Shane Ingate, musing on a slow Friday, in NM _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s kydrive_062008 From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:07:56 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:07:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <202EA70B-1C7E-4E4D-931B-5D785FA72145@bnj.com> Message-ID: <006001c8c800$3f6fb5e0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Many people routinely trade cars after only 3 years or so (and even sooner). If the trade for a high mileage model falls into that routine, it is a positive, particularly if they can get the old gas guzzler off the road. Having it sent to the used market does not help much but the effect of getting an earth friendly vehicle at a time that you would buy another gas guzzler is a step in the right direction. Doing it just to show your neighbors that you care is pretty pathetic. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Joe Curry" Cc: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean. if you consider > the total energy costs of producing a new car, there isn't a > sufficient resource saving for that added 10 MPG to justify a new one. > If you want to contribute then keep your car much longer, drive less, > carpool, maintain your car well, keep your tires properly inflated to > the high side. It's trivial, but it's actually positive. Trading your > Hyundai for a Prius is a fashion statement. Nothing more. > > Not that I'm criticizing fashion statements. I drive a Ferrari. But > that doesn't mean I can't do math. > > The media loves this story--it appeals to their smug and monumentally > uninformed self-righteousness and it's good copy. I loved all the > NASCAR stories about fuel being a big deal for the teams. The stories > were ALL written manipulatively, to make it seem like race fuel was > the issue. Only if you read past the second paragraph (which any > weasel mind-manipulator like me knows 90 percent of the readers won't > do) do you discover that they were talking about fuel for the > airplanes that they transport the teams with. > > It's just cynical marketing for event promoters like Nascar to prattle > about fuel considerations. Amid 50,000 cars in the parking lot at a > typical race, each carrying 1.3 people. Teams flying in with a fleet > of Citations or the three Roush 727's, fifty cars driving 500 miles is > a fart in a hurricane. > > You've got to admire the blatant duplicity. This morning on Good > Morning they had extensive coverage of the goofballs climbing New York > skyscrapers, with all the hosts looking very concerned about copycats > and how illegal it all was. Then they announced they were going to > have an exclusive interview with the french guy who's climbing...wait > for it...to protest global warming. > > The first copycat weenie had to dream something up on the spot--all he > could come up with was "to make people aware of the dangers of > malaria". I nearly blew coffee out my nose. > > What a wonderful world. From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 6 12:06:59 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:06:59 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Plus people who buy old cars > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > polluters. Thanks for the laugh, Joe ! Randall From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:22:53 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Triumph owners aside! I was talking of the people who never buy new cars because (I can't afford it) and likewise buy a junker and drive it until the wheels fall off without putting any money into maintenance (including oil changes). I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > Plus people who buy old cars > > typically don't maintain them properly and allow them to become worse > > polluters. > > Thanks for the laugh, Joe ! > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 6 12:32:21 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:32:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke > screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars too old for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on my 59 TR3A. Randall From hottr6 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 12:37:13 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:37:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: A blathering idiot (me) wrote: > I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource > cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than > building a Tahoe. Sorry. That is incorrect. The statement should read: ..the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is MORE than building a Tahoe. Shane Ingate, better off asleep, in NM. _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 12:46:14 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:46:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com><008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: <001901c8c805$99082a60$2d02a8c0@Belkin> We Definitely do here. Most of them have Mexico License plates. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke > > screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. > > Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars too old > for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. > > Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on my 59 > TR3A. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From kaskas at cox.net Fri Jun 6 13:43:06 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <000f01c8c80d$8b299f70$3a16c548@RW> The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of the event. No thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Preiss" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > Group > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > concept > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > major > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > like > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > grand > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > bench > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > Steve P. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From spitlist at cox.net Fri Jun 6 13:58:54 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:58:54 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: <001201c8c754$93412700$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <000f01c8c80d$8b299f70$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <002901c8c80f$bfb90ee0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I think that most real racing bodies have it right these days. Fuel economy is important and comes into play in the pit stop strategy. That is about the only way to make up positions on many F1 circuits and it is what got Danica her first Indy car win. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel > economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last > three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead > of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on > the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the > other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! > and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just > how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of > the event. No thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From dmitchel at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 6 14:33:52 2008 From: dmitchel at sbcglobal.net (Doug Mitchell) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:33:52 -0400 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <002901c8c80f$bfb90ee0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> Message-ID: I don't have the link here at home, but there was an article in the Wall Street Journal on Monday about BMW using regenerative braking on its F1 cars in 2009. They didn't call it that, but essentially, the charged energy will allow them to use it for up to 6 seconds per lap to increase something like 60 hp. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+dmitchel=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+dmitchel=sbcglobal.net at autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Joe Curry Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 3:59 PM To: Kas Kastner; Steven Preiss; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus I think that most real racing bodies have it right these days. Fuel economy is important and comes into play in the pit stop strategy. That is about the only way to make up positions on many F1 circuits and it is what got Danica her first Indy car win. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kas Kastner" To: "Steven Preiss" ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > The World Sports Car Championship, early '89-'90 was run on a system of fuel > economy and performance and it was the biggest failure ever seen. The last > three to five laps cars were running at 50 mph to make it to the end instead > of racing. Imagine then it was 225 mph sports cars running like they were on > the started motor. This was at LeMans we had that deal and of course all the > other European tracks for this series. Spa with a mileage restriction. Bah!! > and it did make a little more of the event to get the drivers to see just > how efficient they could drive but it also took away from the spectacle of > the event. No thanks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: [Fot] mileage plus > > > > Group > > I really wish that the racing community would embrace and develop the > > concept > > of performance as a factor of speed and efficiency. Obviously it is a > > major > > factor in the distance racing of NASCAR and others. Wouldn't it be cool if > > there was a way to implement it in the sprint races typical of our groups? > > I think it would not be so hard to fit fuel meters with sending units, > > like > > the gas company does, and measure consumption during an event. Measurement > > could be synchronized with the start/finish line. That way, with a few > > calculations, cars across all the different groups could compete for the > > grand > > prize of speed and efficiency. This would open up a whole new level of > > bench > > engineering and I believe increase the public's interest in motor sport in > > general. Perhaps the results would be surprising, too! > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as dmitchel at sbcglobal.net From yellow-green at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 6 14:48:51 2008 From: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net (Dennis DeLap) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR Message-ID: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Note: forwarded message attached. X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:31:29 -0500 Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 From: "Gary Nichols" To: "Dennis Delap" Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm From DSPGTi at aol.com Fri Jun 6 17:16:35 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:16:35 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging Message-ID: There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. Audi diesel in the LeMans series. Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel efficient car and we saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 17:51:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:51:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> References: <006401c8c7d6$3e669c60$0300a8c0@Desktop><001401c8c75a$90199980$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27><002901c8c7ec$12c26c40$2d02a8c0@Belkin><02c201c8c800$1d1a57c0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> <008201c8c802$55c93a80$2d02a8c0@Belkin> <02c601c8c803$a8a805a0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: You won't see them in Oregon either, when you do it's a real shock. I got stopped by a cop because my diesel was emitting too much soot. I thanked him for stopping me, I didn't see it (long way to the back of my F350 crew cab). It was a haywire sensor, easily fixed, but the dealer had to take it through DEQ. On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Randall wrote: >> I am talking about the beaters that are are leaving a smoke >> screen reminiscent of the old DDT sprayers I used to see in my youth. > > Sorry, Joe, my mistake. We don't have those around here; even cars > too old > for biannual smog inspection are not allowed to emit visible smoke. > > Yes, I've even gotten a ticket for it, when a valve seal failed on > my 59 > TR3A. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 17:58:29 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:58:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: References: <02c301c8c800$4ed6bbf0$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> Message-ID: We all understood I suspect. Big debate on the batteries in the hybrid sites. Dealers charge about $8K to replace a pack and generally trash them. The packs can be disassembled and individually cell tested. It's usually NOT a bad battery but corroded connectors. Some folks have them last 150K miles or more, some barely make 50K. In a car that supposed to be a daily commuter that's pretty unacceptable. Plug-in hybrids will get even more interesting. They have a range of about 25 miles before the motor has to run. For most commutes that's pretty good, even if you don't have a place to charge them at work. Seems like a solar panel on the roof could deliver a decent float charge even unplugged. Give the usual duty cycle of a car (1 hour in the morning, idle all day, 1 hour at night) it should be useful. We'll see. Cars are going to get pretty interesting. I'm considering (in a lightweight, goofy fashion) building my TR3 street car as a hybrid. On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Shane Ingate wrote: > A blathering idiot (me) wrote: > >> I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource >> cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than >> building a Tahoe. > > Sorry. That is incorrect. The statement should read: > > ..the resource cost of producing a Toyota Prius is MORE > than building a Tahoe. > Shane Ingate, better off asleep, in NM. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou > back > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 18:08:53 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:08:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR In-Reply-To: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92ED7529-B94D-488F-8C09-E347B13BA74C@bnj.com> Wow, beautiful work. On Jun 6, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > Note: forwarded message attached. > X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, > 06 > Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 > X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] > Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com > from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) > Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) > (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 > Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 > X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] > Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com > [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with > ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun > 2008 14:31:29 -0500 > Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com > with SMTP id > <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for > ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 > From: "Gary Nichols" > To: "Dennis Delap" > Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 > > http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 18:13:11 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: <93352.46457.qm@web53511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I want to thank JW and the SVRA for not bending the rules to allow the current spec SCCA race cars. As a result the SCCA has rescinded its plan to consolidate which means my car will remain SCCA eligible and possibly competitive for a little while longer. Of course I am kidding about JW and the SVRA. It was good to hear the different perspectives regarding the different options available. Maybe another tub can be prepped for vintage and everything else is removable and can be placed on the new tub. Or maybe a GT6...hmmm. Either way, I am glad I will be with the SCCA for a little while longer at least. I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. From JWoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 18:28:23 2008 From: JWoesvra at aol.com (JWoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:28:23 EDT Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo of your car. The form is at _www.svra.com_ (http://www.svra.com) . After all that dialogue this week I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We all have our niches that we feel comfortable in. I have nothing but total awe and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis won the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini with rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice burners away. In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can keep doing it. I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage Racers have a nich that we will protect. We are a time capsule and you guys are the cutting edge. We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to party together. Jack Woehrle **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From jaxonracing at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 19:06:42 2008 From: jaxonracing at yahoo.com (Jay Creel) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA Message-ID: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Amen to that!!!! Its like visiting your grand parents. You may have the same last name and look similar but after a while it best to go your separate ways. No offense to grand parents. LOL It was great to see Joe H. win in that Mini. They know how to prep cars. They are clearly a benchmark for race car preparation. I will print the form and get it to you. I have pictures, just check Kas' book (plug for Kas), Spitfire & GT6 Magazine (plug for Howard), Lime Rock Track Record (skippy plug). Seriously, I have plenty. Do you want electronic files or prints? and NO Aaron we do not want the one from NHIS in 2005. ;)))) I lost a contact I told you, I couldn't see. ;))) thanks ----- Original Message ---- From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 8:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA In a message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: I am interested in entering the WGI event in September, how would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by Triumphs for the weekend. Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo of your car. The form is at www.svra.com. After all that dialogue this week I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We all have our niches that we feel comfortable in. I have nothing but total awe and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis won the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini with rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice burners away. In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can keep doing it. I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage Racers have a nich that we will protect. We are a time capsule and you guys are the cutting edge. We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to party together. Jack Woehrle ________________________________ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. From mark at bradakis.com Fri Jun 6 19:26:52 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:26:52 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Quick out of town trip Message-ID: <4849E3DC.40300@bradakis.com> Karen and I will be heading for the airport in a moment, flying into Orange County. Attending a nephew's wedding saturday, flying back home sunday evening. Less than 48 hours with the inlaws, I can handle that! Behave yourselves while I'm away. mjb. From budscars at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 19:24:16 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:24:16 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA References: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c8c83d$34059340$0202a8c0@Bud> By Joe H. do you mean Huffaker? Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Creel" To: ; Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA > Amen to that!!!! Its like visiting your grand parents. You may have the > same > last name and look similar but after a while it best to go your separate > ways. No offense to grand parents. LOL > > It was great to see Joe H. win in > that Mini. They know how to prep cars. They are clearly a benchmark for > race > car preparation. > > I will print the form and get it to you. I have pictures, > just check Kas' book (plug for Kas), Spitfire & GT6 Magazine (plug for > Howard), Lime Rock Track Record (skippy plug). Seriously, I have plenty. > Do > you want electronic files or prints? > > and NO Aaron we do not want the one > from NHIS in 2005. ;)))) I lost a contact I told you, I couldn't see. > ;))) > > thanks > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "JWoesvra at aol.com" > > To: jaxonracing at yahoo.com; fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Friday, > June 6, 2008 8:28:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA > > In a > message dated 6/6/2008 8:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jaxonracing at yahoo.com writes: > I am interested in entering the WGI event in > September, how > would I go about that? It would be great to be surrounded by > Triumphs for the > weekend. > > Just send me a Race Car Information Sheet and photo > of your car. The form is at www.svra.com. > > After all that dialogue this week > I think we all have more respect for all the segments of motorsport. We > all > have our niches that we feel comfortable in. > > I have nothing but total awe > and respect for the guys who keep old British cars somewhat competitive in > SCCA racing. Being a Mini guy, I always felt vindicated when the GT5 Minis > won > the run-offs. I thought it was great when Joe jr built a tube frame Mini > with > rear drive...just because the rules allowed it, and blew all the rice > burners > away. > > In the same way, I hope you guys that carry the torch for Triumph can > keep doing it. > > I also hope that you have come to understand that Vintage > Racers have a nich that we will protect. > > We are a time capsule and you guys > are the cutting edge. > > We are oil and water, but once in awhile we ought to > party together. > > Jack Woehrle > > > > > ________________________________ > Get trade > secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL > Food. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Fri Jun 6 19:47:21 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR References: <46199.50989.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <92ED7529-B94D-488F-8C09-E347B13BA74C@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000d01c8c840$6db1f360$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I second that WOW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Dennis DeLap" Cc: "FOT" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Get a load of this TR > Wow, beautiful work. > On Jun 6, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Dennis DeLap wrote: > >> Note: forwarded message attached. >> X-Apparently-To: yellow-green at sbcglobal.net via 68.142.199.168; Fri, >> 06 >> Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 >> X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] >> Authentication-Results: mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com >> from=tampabay.rr.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) >> Received: from 207.115.36.114 (EHLO nlpi098.prodigy.net) >> (207.115.36.114) by mta101.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 >> Jun 2008 12:31:30 -0700 >> X-Originating-IP: [71.74.56.124] >> Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com >> [71.74.56.124]) by nlpi098.prodigy.net (8.13.8 inb regex/8.13.8) with >> ESMTP id m56JVTGC018432 for ; Fri, 6 Jun >> 2008 14:31:29 -0500 >> Received: from D6TLNT11 ([68.201.21.140]) by hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com >> with SMTP id >> <20080606193129.IBNG25858.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com at D6TLNT11> for >> ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:31:29 +0000 >> From: "Gary Nichols" >> To: "Dennis Delap" >> Subject: Get a load of this TR, man. >> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:31:39 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> X-Priority: 3 >> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 >> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 >> >> http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Triumph-TR3-Plus-4.htm >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Babcock & Jenkins > Billb at bnj.com > 503.936.7660 > www.bnj.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From jwoesvra at aol.com Fri Jun 6 19:51:34 2008 From: jwoesvra at aol.com (jwoesvra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:51:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Thank you to JW and SVRA In-Reply-To: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <491274.1495.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA96582644C0D3-1400-2965@webmail-md16.sysops.aol.com> Do you want electronic files or prints? either way is fine. jw From spreiss at verizon.net Fri Jun 6 05:42:44 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:42:44 +1100 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus References: Message-ID: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Guess my true colors have been revealed. My very first car was a 1961 Fiat Abarth 750. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: REK46 at aol.com To: tlizzard at msn.com ; spreiss at verizon.net ; fot at autox.team.net ; JWoesvra at aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Fri Jun 6 22:31:19 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:31:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] mileage plus In-Reply-To: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <004c01c8c7ca$6fc594c0$2b01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: I had an 850 Spider when I was on the Enterprise, I met another sailor in the parking lot at Newport News Shipyard one day who was shipping out, had bought ALL the abarth stuff--head, carb and manifold, cam, exhaust, big bore pistons and then his car was stolen. He sold the whole lot to me for ten cents on the dollar. I pulled the engine myself without a lift--just plucked it out like a sewing machine in a trunk. Okay, a pretty heavy sewing machine, but I could carry it. Did all the work in two weekends and had it back running. on the next monday. It was pretty cool. Beaucoup oversteer and you had to be on the powerband to make much happen, but it would eat up most of the LBC's around. I eventually discovered a lot more midrange when I realized the cam was advanced one tooth. I shipped out to Westpac for eight months and my wife (at that time) hated the car. I shoulda kept the car and got rid of the wife. On Jun 6, 2008, at 4:42 AM, Steven Preiss wrote: > Guess my true colors have been revealed. My very first car was a > 1961 Fiat > Abarth 750. > Steve P. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: REK46 at aol.com > To: tlizzard at msn.com ; spreiss at verizon.net ; fot at autox.team.net ; > JWoesvra at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] mileage plus > > > followed bty a flock of NSU-TTS....and other D sedans > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" > on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From trmarty at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 07:33:06 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:33:06 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spity alignments Message-ID: I am going to try and get my latest project , a 1964 Vintage Race Spitfire into autox mode so that I will have something to run at VTR in Ypsilanti in August since the demise of the TR6. Should be interesting since I believe it has a welded diff and I have yet to drive the car. Wont be in the running for FTD for sure. Hopefully their will be some folks there to give Richard a run :). Any of you forks that run Spitfires have any suggestions as to alignment specs? Marty _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From Herald948 at aol.com Sat Jun 7 08:29:08 2008 From: Herald948 at aol.com (Herald948 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:29:08 EDT Subject: [Fot] Spity alignments Message-ID: In a message dated 6/7/2008 9:33:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, trmarty at hotmail.com writes: I am going to try and get my latest project , a 1964 Vintage Race Spitfire into autox mode so that I will have something to run at VTR in Ypsilanti in August since the demise of the TR6. Should be interesting since I believe it has a welded diff and I have yet to drive the car. Wont be in the running for FTD for sure. Hopefully their will be some folks there to give Richard a run :). Any of you forks that run Spitfires have any suggestions as to alignment specs? ==AM== Hmm....I vaguely remember someone who cleaned up an abandoned-in-a-barn (honest!) GP Spitfire 4, threw some cast-off FF qualifying slicks on it, and eventually went on to take FTD at VTR autocrosses in 1986 and 1989, welded diff. and all! Note that the "and all" included the typical Kastner-recommended race mods and parts, circa 1968 or so, right down to the camber compensator and Konis, and an engine that probably would just about qualify as a hot street engine nowadays. Oh, and a welded 4.55 diff, which I always enjoyed exploiting on the course! It all worked pretty well as a cheap and cheerful autocrosser for many years. Unfortunately for me, various talented members of the infamous TR Gang came along, using a certain monster TR4 and other weapons. ;-) Sure would be nice to see another "Vintage Race" Spitfire 4 out there on the VTR course. I've no alignment suggestions; we never got much further, in our extreme cheapness and casualness, than getting it to track straight without too much scuffing or scalloping of the tires.... --Andy Mace *Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet? *Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings. -- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22) The Vintage Triumph Register's Triumph 10, Herald and Sports 6 vehicle consultant _http://www.vtr.org_ (http://www.vtr.org/) Check out the North American Triumph Sports 6 (Vitesse 6) and Triumph Herald Database:_ http://triumph-herald.us_ (http://triumph-herald.us/) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From keithfiles at btinternet.com Sat Jun 7 13:37:20 2008 From: keithfiles at btinternet.com (Keith Files) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:37:20 +0100 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) Dear All, Here is the view from the other side of the pond. Currently diesel is at #5.91 per gallon; that is approx $11 per gallon of which the Government nets around $7 per gallon. The UK Government is getting a massive tax windfall with the rising oil price (not to mention the profits from Brent crude) and they are still thinking about introducing further increases on fuel tax soon!!!! Unleaded is around $10 per gallon. I used to run a 4.7 litre Jeep Grand Cherokee on LPG and Petrol; towing I got 13 mpg and commuting in and out of London 17 mpg at $5 per gallon for LPG that made sense to me (sold it because it blew the head gaskets for the second time in 6 months and the repair costs were horrendous). I run a Land Rover Discovery 3 on diesel now and get 19 mpg towing and 25 mpg commuting (the self levelling air suspension is something else when you are towing). I also run an Audi A4 diesel that gives me 64 mpg on the motorways; I use this car for the long hauls (well long by our standards). I also run a Porsche GT3 on the days when I want some fun; surprisingly even when driven hard still gives 23 mpg and 28mpg when cruising on the motorways or autobahns... Cheers, Keith. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: 07 June 2008 00:17 To: kaskas at cox.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. Audi diesel in the LeMans series. Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel efficient car and we saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Dave Y. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as keithfiles at btinternet.com From Billb at bnj.com Sat Jun 7 22:09:57 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:09:57 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mileage bragging In-Reply-To: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) References: <483EFD0001CE5E78@> (added by postmaster@mail.o2.co.uk) Message-ID: <034138C3-C18D-47F6-BB15-7B9E5A510443@bnj.com> 'm sure they'll spend the windfall wisely. I've always been surprised at the mileage I get from my 360 Spider. Modern cars do pretty well even when there's 400 ponies under the hood. The wonders of fuel injection and ECUs On Jun 7, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Keith Files wrote: > Dear All, > > Here is the view from the other side of the pond. > > Currently diesel is at #5.91 per gallon; that is approx $11 per > gallon of > which the Government nets around $7 per gallon. The UK Government is > getting > a massive tax windfall with the rising oil price (not to mention the > profits > from Brent crude) and they are still thinking about introducing > further > increases on fuel tax soon!!!! > > Unleaded is around $10 per gallon. > > I used to run a 4.7 litre Jeep Grand Cherokee on LPG and Petrol; > towing I > got 13 mpg and commuting in and out of London 17 mpg at $5 per > gallon for > LPG that made sense to me (sold it because it blew the head gaskets > for the > second time in 6 months and the repair costs were horrendous). > > I run a Land Rover Discovery 3 on diesel now and get 19 mpg towing > and 25 > mpg commuting (the self levelling air suspension is something else > when you > are towing). > > I also run an Audi A4 diesel that gives me 64 mpg on the motorways; > I use > this car for the long hauls (well long by our standards). > > I also run a Porsche GT3 on the days when I want some fun; > surprisingly even > when driven hard still gives 23 mpg and 28mpg when cruising on the > motorways > or autobahns... > > Cheers, Keith. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+keithfiles=btinternet.com at autox.team.net] On > Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: 07 June 2008 00:17 > To: kaskas at cox.net; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] Mileage bragging > > There are current attempts to have fuel awareness in racing: > > We have the TDI cup. All VW Turbo Direct Injection spec cars. > > Audi diesel in the LeMans series. > > Indy Car is 100% Ethanol. > > I like to think that the whole Sports Car Racing thing started by > enthusiasts who first decided it was better to have a small fuel > efficient > car and we > saved so much gas that we are owed the credits to go racing with. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > Dave Y. > > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking > with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as keithfiles at btinternet.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From m-syork at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 23:16:04 2008 From: m-syork at comcast.net (Mark York) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:16:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Message-ID: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Amici, I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my motor for the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine shop to ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a lightened one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the following: 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. Now here is where it gets a little weird: 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise 5) Install the spark plug / bolt 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact with the bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again contacts the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the spark plug (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does somebody have an easier way? The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. Doesn't this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? Confused in Seattle Mark PS: Thanks in advance From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 8 05:49:18 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 04:49:18 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Message-ID: <182D37CF-B49E-485E-9623-4407AF49EEBE@bnj.com> The piston-stop method is common and accurate for finding TDC. You just have to do it carefully and do it a couple of times to make sure of your results. The bolt shouldn't be welded. What you want to do is beat the guts out of a spark plug and thread the inside to accept a long bolt. Grind a flat on one side of the bolt to release the air (you MUST do this on the compression stroke) and a rounded nose on the side that meets the piston. Get an approximate idea of the length Youl need by bringing the engine to TDC by turning it slowly and feeling when it stops pushing air with your thumb over the spark plug hole and then measuring with a narrow ruler. Set your bolt to a little longer than that and lock it down with a lock nut (on the outside of course). Bring the engine up on compression you start to feel pressure with your thumb, put in the stop in, continue rotation until you feel a solid stop. Mark that point on your balancer. Then rotate backwards until you hit the stop again. Mark the point. TDC is exactly in the middle between those points. It's not 17 degrees--the stopping point is arbitrary and varies with the length of the stop. The key is that BOTH points are the same distance before TDC. This is much more precise than using a degree whell, and in fact is the way you set up a degree wheel even if the head is off. The dead spot when a piston travels over TDC is about three degrees wide. Even with a good dia; indicator the stop method is more accurate. On Jun 7, 2008, at 10:16 PM, Mark York wrote: > Amici, > > I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my > motor for > the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, > crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine > shop to > ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a > lightened > one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the > following: > > 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the > exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) > > 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. > > Now here is where it gets a little weird: > > 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. > > 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise > > 5) Install the spark plug / bolt > > 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact > with the > bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point > > 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again > contacts > the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. > > The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. > > My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the > spark plug > (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does > somebody have an easier way? > > The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. > Doesn't > this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? > > Confused in Seattle > > Mark > > > > PS: Thanks in advance > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From BillDentin at aol.com Sun Jun 8 09:40:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:40:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] Blackhawk Vintage Classic XVI Message-ID: Amici... Those who use 'Track Time' as the ruler for judging a vintage racing event's worth need to visit www.vscda.org and check out the Tentative Schedule for track times at the 16th Annual Blackhawk Vintage Classic. Friday (which can be bought as a half or full day) has five sessions per group. Saturday each race groups has two practice sessions, a qualifying session, and a Sprint Race. The 'bug eyes' also have a 12 Lap Sprite 50th Anniversary Reunion Challenge Series Race. Sunday sees each race group getting a warm up session, a 'Handicapped Race,' and a Feature Race. In addition there is a separate Formula Vee series race and a 'Small Bore Grand Prix.' Not many sanctioning bodies run 'Handicapped Races', because they are involve a lot of busy work, but they've become a tradition at the Blackhawk Vintage Classic. It involves a 'staggered start' based on your best Sprint Race lap times. The fast cars try to catch the slower cars. I was leading last year's handicapped race, only to run out of gas with three turns to go. Shame on me, but running out of gas is another development of 'too much track time.' Look it over. Blackhawk Farms is a premier club track. It has a new owner who has made lots of improvements. Modern rest rooms, hot water, new Tech building, and more. If you are available, this event is a very good deal. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From KENMUN at aol.com Sun Jun 8 14:37:59 2008 From: KENMUN at aol.com (KENMUN at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:37:59 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Sun Jun 8 15:27:34 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:27:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806082127.m58LReqx131521@ns3.geneseo.net> Sure. The overheating problem has an ultimate solution. We've tried the usual list of water wetter, better ducting, better pumps, and all that stuff and never was able to make much of an improvement. The real solution is to convert to an aluminum Ford- or Chevy style radiator. Even full of coolant, it weighs a lot less than a stock copper radiator. And it's cheap! You can get one of these radiators for under $200. It takes replumbing, which is easy, and mounting, which isn't too hard, and a re-do of your ducting. I have to use a thermostat to keep the engine hot enough. This radiator is much wider than the stock one so it presents a bigger area to the incoming air. I don't have pictures on a website, but I'll send you pictures of mine if you want to see how I did it. At 03:37 PM 6/8/2008, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: >fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear >and not many >long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the >temp going up >on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd >come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i >turned the car >off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. >i've got >the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well >sealed so the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening >with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? >thanks for any >comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > >**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as vinttr4 at geneseo.net uncle jack From Billb at bnj.com Sun Jun 8 17:00:31 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:00:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89C258F3-A964-4824-A9F6-951B2087D57C@bnj.com> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater TR3 made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a radiator made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by the air over the radiator when the car is moving. On Jun 8, 2008, at 1:37 PM, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: > fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the > racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear > and not many > long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the > temp going up > on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f > +) i'd > come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i > turned the car > off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. > i've got > the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well > sealed so the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill > opening > with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, > overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? > thanks for any > comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking > with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? > &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 8 17:13:41 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:13:41 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR3 4 PARTS FOR SALE Message-ID: <003201c8c9bd$4c1e5f80$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello Gang...A friend of mine is cleaning house a bit...he has the following for sale..located in contra costa county, california TR4 engine complete with stromberg carbs and performance header 750.00..will run 3 tr3 trannys at 150.00 each.( 1 is dissasembled) lots of TR3 4 starters, generators..cores tr3 brake drums....and rotors.. tr3 water pump housings, etc.. 2 tr3 front nose body pieces lots of TR3 odds and ends Serious offers ok on everything Bud Morris is a very nice elderly Gentleman who has restored tr3s for about 50 years...you can email me, or call Bud at 925 935 5477 Thanks Racer Bud From spiwakd at aol.com Sun Jun 8 17:42:32 2008 From: spiwakd at aol.com (David Spiwak) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:42:32 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101c8c9c1$5284dfd0$f78e9f70$@com> I had that problem with my TR3 years ago, but now my car rarely gets over 180 during a race. You have to trap all the air that is going around your radiator and force it through the radiator. Use aluminum flashing and sheet metal screws or pop rivets. It is more difficult with a large-mouth nose. The small- mouth was easier and more effective. If your oil cooler is blocking the flow, you will have to move it. I used to have the oil cooler mounted on the side of the radiator. At present I don't need a cooler at all. My radiator is stock. I removed the fan and mounted an electric one behind the radiator for use on the grid. You don't need a fan while moving. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 4:38 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spiwakd at aol.com From grandwazoo at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 18:02:04 2008 From: grandwazoo at earthlink.net (Mike Jackson) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:02:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Babcock >Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >To: KENMUN at aol.com >Cc: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater TR3 >made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a radiator >made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >the air over the radiator when the car is moving. > >On Jun 8, 2008, at 1:37 PM, KENMUN at aol.com wrote: > >> fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >> racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear >> and not many >> long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the >> temp going up >> on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f >> +) i'd >> come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i >> turned the car >> off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. >> i've got >> the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well >> sealed so the >> air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill >> opening >> with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >> overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? >> thanks for any >> comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer >> >> >> >> **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking >> with >> Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >> (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4? >> &NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > >Bill Babcock >Babcock & Jenkins >Billb at bnj.com >503.936.7660 >www.bnj.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as grandwazoo at earthlink.net From grandwazoo at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 18:03:41 2008 From: grandwazoo at earthlink.net (Mike Jackson) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:03:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: <1113837.1212969821127.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> get rid of the fan. Even an electric behind the radiator damages some flow Mike -----Original Message----- >From: David Spiwak >Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:42 PM >To: KENMUN at aol.com, fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >I had that problem with my TR3 years ago, but now my car rarely gets over >180 during a race. You have to trap all the air that is going around your >radiator and force it through the radiator. Use aluminum flashing and sheet >metal screws or pop rivets. It is more difficult with a large-mouth nose. >The small- mouth was easier and more effective. If your oil cooler is >blocking the flow, you will have to move it. I used to have the oil cooler >mounted on the side of the radiator. At present I don't need a cooler at >all. My radiator is stock. I removed the fan and mounted an electric one >behind the radiator for use on the grid. You don't need a fan while moving. > >-----Original Message----- >From: fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net >[mailto:fot-bounces+spiwakd=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of >KENMUN at aol.com >Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 4:38 PM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > >fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the >racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not >many >long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going >up >on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd >come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the >car >off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've >got >the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so >the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening >with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, >overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks >for any >comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > > > >**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with >Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as spiwakd at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as grandwazoo at earthlink.net From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 8 18:31:14 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:31:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] tr3/4 oil filter canister Message-ID: <007301c8c9c8$20571800$0202a8c0@Bud> Hello gang..does anyone have an old tr3/4 oil filter canister? if so, please email Dean Beaupre at dabeaupre at gmail.com Thanks Racer Bud From jhassall at blacksburg.net Sun Jun 8 18:43:10 2008 From: jhassall at blacksburg.net (J.C. Hassall) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 20:43:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] anyone going from South Beach OR to the LA area? Message-ID: <0K26008H97AQUSTO@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Amci, A friend's TR3 engine has been rebuilt in South Beach, Oregon.....it's next to Newport, OR, and it will soon be ready to come home to the LA area. Anyone travelling that route who would be willing to haul it back? If so, pls contact Steve directly at banjonut at verizon.net. TIA jim -- J.C. Hassall Blacksburg VA '63 TR4 in autox preparation 96% finished, 90% to go From mark at bradakis.com Sun Jun 8 21:25:54 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:25:54 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> Message-ID: <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> > 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. > > What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 degrees will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the distributor position to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC ready to fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" instead of the number 1 cylinder. In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a cylinder occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. The blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the rock, given a basic, symmetrical cam grind. The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't matter, though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the two marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is halfway between the two. mjb. PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. From charly at mitchelplumbing.com Sun Jun 8 21:52:23 2008 From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly Mitchel) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:52:23 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Message-ID: <8cd17def7ae542588567c508a00e1fc4@mitchelplumbing.com> Mark, I have a tdc tool you screw into the spark plug hole. Charly ---------------------------------------- From: "Mark York" Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:16 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC Amici, I'm finally getting some time to finish the final assembly of my motor for the TR3 racer, the machine shop did most of the work (pistons/sleeves, crank, cam, and head), and I'm doing the rest. I called the machine shop to ask how to find TDC since the flywheel has been replaced with a lightened one and none of the indicator arrows are there, I was given the following: 1) Rotate the engine until the #1 intake has just closed and the exhaust valve is just opening (mark this position) 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. Now here is where it gets a little weird: 3) Weld a bolt to the bottom of a spark plug. 4) Rotate the engine a quarter turn counter clockwise 5) Install the spark plug / bolt 6) Rotate the engine clockwise until the piston makes contact with the bolt on the end of the spark plug, mark this point 7) Rotate the engine counter clockwise until the piston again contacts the bolt on the spark plug, mark this point. The 2 points marked are approx 17 deg before TDC and after TDC. My questions are: how long should the bolt be on the end of the spark plug (won't the length make a difference where the piston meets it)? Does somebody have an easier way? The head is mounted and torqued, I really don't want to take it off. Doesn't this process seem a little Rube Goldberg-ish? Confused in Seattle Mark PS: Thanks in advance Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 03:50:52 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 11:50:52 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had the same trouble in year 2005 when I used copper head gaskets. At full throttle I had blow by at the gasket at cylinder #2 and #3. I have run the engine hundreds of miles on the autobahn at cruising speed with no evidence of blow by but on the track the radiator was emptied within 5 laps. I passed on to steel head gaskets and since then all trouble disappeared and I never had any overheating. I use a simple copper core radiator of the size the TR4a had and that works very fine. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von KENMUN at aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Juni 2008 22:38 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 04:07:31 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:07:31 +0200 Subject: [Fot] WG: cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: BTW the radiator I use is a 2 row one taken out of a Opel Manta. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of DSCN0339.JPG] From jsnook at wcnet.org Mon Jun 9 07:16:14 2008 From: jsnook at wcnet.org (Jeff Snook) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:16:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 References: Message-ID: <005601c8ca32$fe9c70a0$6701a8c0@JeffSnook> I put in an aluminum radiator from Wizard Cooling a couple years ago. Duplicate of the original TR3, but much more efficient. No problems anymore with water temps and I don't run any kind of fan. Now I just have to get the oil temps a little cooler on those hot summer days. Put in a wider oil cooler this winter and it stills runs a little hotter than we would like! Vroom, vroom, Jeff Snook http://www.snooksdreamcars.com ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx To: KENMUN at aol.com ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 I had the same trouble in year 2005 when I used copper head gaskets. At full throttle I had blow by at the gasket at cylinder #2 and #3. I have run the engine hundreds of miles on the autobahn at cruising speed with no evidence of blow by but on the track the radiator was emptied within 5 laps. I passed on to steel head gaskets and since then all trouble disappeared and I never had any overheating. I use a simple copper core radiator of the size the TR4a had and that works very fine. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von KENMUN at aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Juni 2008 22:38 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not many long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going up on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the car off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've got the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so the air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks for any comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jsnook_gmi at wcnet.org From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Mon Jun 9 07:34:12 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:34:12 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Message-ID: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack From pvucinic at netspace.net.au Mon Jun 9 08:00:57 2008 From: pvucinic at netspace.net.au (Peter Vucinic) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:00:57 +1000 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: Jack, A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a marginal difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the 'new' Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result of 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the radiators single, double or triple pass? -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack W. Drews Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 9 08:16:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:16:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: In a message dated 06/08/2008 3:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time, KENMUN at aol.com writes: > fot, just returned from a frustrating week end at sebring raceway. the > racing was on a 1.7 mile course with a lot of time in 2nd/3rd gear and not > many > long straights to cool down. the car would run 7/8 laps with the temp going > up > on every lap. air temp was 90f+. when the gage was full scale (230f+) i'd > come in. with a 7# cap the water was immediately boiling when i turned the > car > off, with a 16# cap when i turned the engine off the hoses blew off. i've > got > the original size rad with a modern 5 row core. it's fairly well sealed so > the > air has to go thru the rad. the oil cooler is mounted in the grill opening > with a shroud between it and the rad. in three years of trying this, > overheating remains my top problem. is there any ultimate solution? thanks > for any > comments or advice. ken m tr3 vintage racer > Sounds like you may have a system that needs to be burped. Sure you don't have an air bubble or bubbles in the system? Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 9 08:37:54 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:37:54 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. From edwardbarnard at prodigy.net Mon Jun 9 10:46:30 2008 From: edwardbarnard at prodigy.net (EDWARD BARNARD) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <96651.52317.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think one good point that Mike made is the opening of the "hole" in the apron. No matter what media is used for the radiator the stock TR2-3 apron blocks airflow to the lower third of the radiator. On Randy W's car I cut the sheet metal in the apron the width of the radiator and angled it down to allow the air to flow to this lower third. I fabricated triangular metal pieces to fill the ends and spotwelded them in. The only down side is that it does away with having the ability to use a handcrank :o( (that's a joke folks). I'm also surprised nobody has discussed the role that the bypass is playing. Thanks - Ed - Bill Babcock wrote: My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as edwardbarnard at prodigy.net From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 9 11:21:23 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] TR6 at Devens SCCA Solo National Tour Message-ID: Hi, I ran the SCCA solo NT event this weekend past. That means both as an entrant and as the event co-chair. WHEW, am I tired. The car ran fine, I was a little slow dialing in the new tires (I changed to Hoosier slicks), but wound up with respectable times. At any rate, there's some pix posted on the NER forums... one is: http://www.ner.org/v/solo/2008tour/kc/heat2/IMG_8352.JPG.html There were three Triumphs running, Bob Totten (D Mod Spitfire GT), Dean van de Carr (E Mod TR6 (with V8 grrrrrrrunt) and Bob Lang (F prepared TR6) Lots of fun. On the ride home, one of my truck's calipers stuck on. Lots of smoke, but no fire. Before I removed the wheel, I used the pyrometer to check the temps... the caliper was 400+. Yeow! We're getting new parts on there today. :-) It was sure nice to drive my TRiumph again! rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list at mackenzie.aero Mon Jun 9 12:46:09 2008 From: list at mackenzie.aero (Robert MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:46:09 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 at Devens SCCA Solo National Tour (Robert Lang) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004501c8ca61$15c0e260$4142a720$@aero> >It was sure nice to drive my TRiumph again! >Rml I ran my '62 Spit in the SCCA Southwest Solo Divisional Race #2 over the weekend. The two day event was held at the Cooper Tire test center in Pearsall, TX. (Thanx Cooper Tires!) I had some "issues" with the car and frankly did not drive as well as I could have, nevertheless, I managed to post some decent times on the 2nd day and got second place in GP. With two seconds in two events, I now have a 3 point lead in the Divisional Championship going into next month's event in Houston. Robert MacKenzie 79 Spitfire 1500 (Street) 62 Spitfire Mk1 (Race) Cedar Park, TX From fubog1 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 12:58:10 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:58:10 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> References: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <8CA9879E5102256-F10-50E@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... Glen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Babcock To: Mike Jackson Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:37 am Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 My reply got bounced for being too long. I don't understand why racers would focus on having a radiator that's the same size as the one designed for a 80 horsepower street car that rarely saw full throttle. The GCRs don't require it. Engines generate heat as a direct result of the horsepower they develop--they are about 35 percent efficient, so if you double the HP you triple the heat load. Why have a marginal radiator? You get more power, better component life, and fewer worries if you have a radiator that will give you an adequate cooling margin. It's a trivial thing to fit and you never have to pay attention to it again (unless there's something wrong with your car). You're not reducing wind resistance with a smaller radiator. I can't think of a single advantage except you already have it. Radiators are a couple of hundred dollars. A racing motor costs many thousands. Just as a wild guess, but I'd expect that neither Kas nor Bob Tullius or anyone else that seriously raced these cars in the day ever contemplated using a stock-sized radiator unless the regulations required them to. On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mike Jackson wrote: > I partially disagree. I have a modern core between original > headers. Glen opened a hole below the shelf to allow air to the > portion of radiator below and did really good shrouding. The oil > cooler is mounted alongside the radiator, not in front of it. With > a gutted thermostat and a clean block/head interior our TR3 never > overheats, even in the Florida heat in the summer. Maybe some of > ya'll are producing a bunch more power than we are but the last time > I asked Glen how much HP our motor was producing he wrote a number > on the side of the valve cover that was pretty impressive. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Babcock >> Sent: Jun 8, 2008 7:00 PM >> To: KENMUN at aol.com >> Cc: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 >> >> You need a mo biggah radiator. There COULD be some other problem, >> like too much advance or some friction someplace, but basically the >> stock radiator is for an engine making about 80 HP and rarely using >> that. A five row core isn't enough. You need as much radiator as you >> can squeeze in and then you can use either an orifice or a thermostat >> to control the temp. I've talked about this before, but my cheater >> TR3 >> made a lot of ponies even with just a nitrided crank. I had a >> radiator >> made that mounted using the original mounts (that's what the GCR >> requires) but filled pretty much the whole nose. You can get an >> integral oil cooler or not depending on how you feel about that. It's >> actually a really good thing though, when the car is standing still >> the water gets hot first and heats the oil, then the oil is cooled by >> the air over the radiator when the car is moving. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From BillDentin at aol.com Mon Jun 9 13:32:46 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:32:46 EDT Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 Message-ID: In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, fubog1 at aol.com writes: > yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. > It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. > > I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do > AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... > Glen... I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From fubog1 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 13:53:39 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:53:39 -0400 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> OK Bill I'll check the next time I look in a mirror, but that ain't very often! Seriously, Mikes normal rev limit is around 6000 rpm, with the standard do-not-exceed 109% rating applied. Now, the un-named driver of a certain WHITE TR-3 is another story. He has to have the recall tach, ha ha! Glen -----Original Message----- From: BillDentin at aol.com To: Fubog1 at aol.com; Billb at bnj.com; grandwazoo at earthlink.net Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, fubog1 at aol.com writes: > yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. > It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. > > I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should do > AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... > Glen... I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. Bill Dentinger ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From Billb at bnj.com Mon Jun 9 15:01:04 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:01:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA9881A545A2FA-F10-993@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <82AD9699-59B7-4562-AB83-BC459EF18DC2@bnj.com> There's not much useful past 6K anyway, other than just not needing to lift in a long straight. The TR head just won't breathe that fast. I use 6K as a shift point and gear for 6500 as the upper limit based on the longest straights I run. that's a 3.9 rear end for the west coast tracks, but I ran a 3.7 last year to cover tracks I wasn't familiar with. I'm sure a steel crank motor will rev higher with reasonable reliability, but it won't do much. I just think feathering the throttle near the end of a straight is hard on things. My cheater TR3 was 92mm, and the motor was hyper-aggressive in every way except it had a nitrided cast iron crank with radiuses welded and ground in all the stress risers--not steel. The radiator is about twice the size of a TR3. There's no way a TR3 radiator would have managed that motor, even with a different core. Tried it, didn't like it. Peyote has a much milder motor--probably 130HP, was 89 MM, now 87 MM, steel crank, etc.. The radiator is from some odd LBC but its about 1.5 times the area of a TR radiator. If I have cooling problems I know something is wrong. Sometimes blowby, sometimes advance, sometimes an air leak or wrong jetting. I tend to jet my carburetors aggressively to the lean side. Car guys that look at my plugs think my motor is about to blow. Old motorcycle habits. I like a little shade of tan at the base of the insulator after a clean plug chop with new plugs. On a dyno the same jets show dead white but don't blister or toast the electrodes and don't burn anything. I'm very fond of having a lot of cooling margin. I like to be able to adjust the cooling with a thermostat or an orifice rather than hope the car doesn't overheat. On Jun 9, 2008, at 12:53 PM, fubog1 at aol.com wrote: > OK Bill I'll check the next time I look in a mirror, but that ain't > very often! > > Seriously, Mikes normal rev limit is around 6000 rpm, with the > standard do-not-exceed 109% rating applied. > Now, the un-named driver of a certain WHITE TR-3 is another story. > He has to have the recall tach, ha ha! > Glen > > -----Original Message----- > From: BillDentin at aol.com > To: Fubog1 at aol.com; Billb at bnj.com; grandwazoo at earthlink.net > Cc: fot at autox.team.net; KENMUN at aol.com > Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 3:32 pm > Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > > In a message dated 06/09/2008 1:59:04 PM Central Daylight Time, > fubog1 at aol.com writes: > > >> yeah I reckon Mikes car doesn't make enough horsepower to run hot. >> It's 87mm & he doesn't run it much over 6000 rpm. >> >> I told him once that he had around 200 horsepower & the thing should > do >> AT LEAST 160, so he had to learn how to drive it fast... >> > > Glen... > > I got $20 says your nose is now longer than it used to be. > > Bill Dentinger > > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& > NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com > > Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Mon Jun 9 15:56:24 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:56:24 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: I have the TR4A Wizard radiator. It cools just fine here in Texas, so cool that I have to run a thermostat. The only problem with it is that the upper hose outlet is at the wrong angle. Make sure you ask if he has fixed his design before you buy one for your car. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jack W. Drews Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 8:34 AM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators work. A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a difference between various suppliers. uncle jack Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 16:18:59 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:18:59 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a row....the first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I tried to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any air flow. Cheers Chris From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 9 16:48:11 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:48:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net><925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> One and maybe the main reason for a larger radiator with more tubes is the total volume of water or coolant contained and that is the important part, Same with oil. ----- Original Message ----- From: "MadMarx" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 > The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a > row....the > first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the > following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. > > So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around > useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. > So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I > tried > to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very > flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any > air > flow. > > Cheers > Chris > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From tr4racing at googlemail.com Mon Jun 9 17:04:13 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:04:13 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net><925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> <00ea01c8ca82$e4c0f7f0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: Very true. The best compromise should be a wide radiator with lots of tubes in a line. My radiator has 68 tubes in two rows, which are 10 tubes more than the stock radiator has. Every time I breath the throttle for several seconds the temperature drops about 10 degree C. -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Kas Kastner Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Juni 2008 00:48 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 One and maybe the main reason for a larger radiator with more tubes is the total volume of water or coolant contained and that is the important part, Same with oil. From dtalbott at archrepro.com Mon Jun 9 17:25:59 2008 From: dtalbott at archrepro.com (David Talbott) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:25:59 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this suckin', squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You take that to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 RPM's, and that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to get a feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in on the two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents like ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. DT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J Bradakis" To: Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC >> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >> >> > What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 > degrees > will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the distributor > position > to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC ready to > fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" > instead of > the number 1 cylinder. > > In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a cylinder > occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. The > blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the rock, given > a basic, symmetrical cam grind. > > The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't matter, > though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the two > marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is > halfway between the two. > > mjb. > > PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of > email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 9 18:46:40 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:46:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> Message-ID: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv From spitlist at cox.net Mon Jun 9 18:52:53 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:52:53 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> I knew that! No, really, I knew that! Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas Kastner Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From colordog.1 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 9 19:27:37 2008 From: colordog.1 at earthlink.net (Steven Belfer) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:27:37 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> what's a dingle arm? ~Steve On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > I knew that! No, really, I knew that! > > Joe C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas > Kastner > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports > > This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most > racers. I > could not keep it any longer. > > http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net From spitlist at cox.net Mon Jun 9 19:31:42 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:31:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> References: <000d01c8ca85$49a85990$0200a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP> <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> <000001c8ca94$50ff0540$0302a8c0@newcomputer> <352F682E-839D-482B-8BA4-326E6FC18E17@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000101c8ca99$bcf8fb20$0302a8c0@newcomputer> That's the part where the berries sprout! -----Original Message----- From: Steven Belfer [mailto:colordog.1 at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 6:28 PM To: Joe Curry Cc: 'Kas Kastner'; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Camshafts & ports what's a dingle arm? ~Steve On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > I knew that! No, really, I knew that! > > Joe C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas > Kastner > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports > > This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most > racers. I > could not keep it any longer. > > http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 9 19:32:04 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:32:04 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports Message-ID: <6965FF70.0CF3CC9A.00159EE9@cs.com> Steven Belfer wrote: >what's a dingle arm? it's right in front of the dingle berry. > >~Steve > >On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Joe Curry wrote: > >> I knew that! No, really, I knew that! >> >> Joe C. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net >> [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kas >> Kastner >> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 5:47 PM >> To: fot at autox.team.net >> Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports >> >> This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most >> racers. I >> could not keep it any longer. >> >> http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as colordog.1 at earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 10 06:55:06 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Camshafts & ports In-Reply-To: <015501c8ca93$729304a0$3a16c548@RW> Message-ID: <820724.66800.qm@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There really is a Rockwell Automation division of Rockwell International. At one time Goss International, my employer, was owned by Rockwell International. We used Rockwell Automation to control a newspaper printing press drive line, big stuff like controlling multiple 200 HP DC motors. Our electrical engineers are going to get a real kick out of this. Kas Kastner wrote: This has been my closely held secret never before revealed to most racers. I could not keep it any longer. http://www.klenger.net/humor/Rockwell-Automation.wmv Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as sbracing at sbcglobal.net From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 10 07:02:49 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Non FOT - Funny Vid Of Machine Tool Use Message-ID: <42430.48713.qm@web81001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.poetv. com/video. php?vid=34186 Since we are showing fun vids, I thought I would add this one. Those with a machine tool back ground will really enjoy this. From Billb at bnj.com Tue Jun 10 09:32:28 2008 From: Billb at bnj.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:32:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> Message-ID: <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> One of the reasons I always liked two strokes--suck and squeeze happens at the same time, the challenging part is that so do bang and blow. On Jun 9, 2008, at 4:25 PM, David Talbott wrote: > Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this > suckin', > squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You > take that > to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 > RPM's, and > that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to > get a > feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in > on the > two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents > like > ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. > > DT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark J Bradakis" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC > > >>> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >>> >>> >> What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 >> degrees >> will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the >> distributor >> position >> to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC >> ready to >> fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" >> instead of >> the number 1 cylinder. >> >> In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a >> cylinder >> occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. >> The >> blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the >> rock, given >> a basic, symmetrical cam grind. >> >> The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't >> matter, >> though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the >> two >> marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is >> halfway between the two. >> >> mjb. >> >> PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of >> email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From vintage.racer at comcast.net Tue Jun 10 09:55:28 2008 From: vintage.racer at comcast.net (Gary Horstkorta) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Finding TDC In-Reply-To: <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> References: <000601c8c926$c07962e0$c81a794c@markv8zno7deim> <484CA2C2.9010401@bradakis.com> <000701c8ca88$2d1e90c0$3700000a@LatitudeD530> <0336A995-5B72-4A44-B8A1-52259123B7FF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000001c8cb12$680fe0a0$382fa1e0$@racer@comcast.net> No wonder those engines sound like they're always screaming! Gary -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+vintage.racer=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+vintage.racer=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:32 AM To: David Talbott Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC One of the reasons I always liked two strokes--suck and squeeze happens at the same time, the challenging part is that so do bang and blow. On Jun 9, 2008, at 4:25 PM, David Talbott wrote: > Jesus, Mark, you need to be more careful when you talk about this > suckin', > squeezin', bangin', and blowin' stuff in a semi-public forum. You > take that > to the extreme, like a recent V10 F1 engine at close to 20,000 > RPM's, and > that's enough of the aforementioned activity in a single minute to > get a > feller all worked up. All you need now is for Babcock to chime in > on the > two stroke equivalents of this and some of our senior correspondents > like > ol' Damndinger could literally pop a danged gasket. > > DT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark J Bradakis" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Finding TDC > > >>> 2) Rotate the engine 360 degrees, this is approximately TDC. >>> >>> >> What, exactly, is the purpose of this step? Rotating the crank 360 >> degrees >> will put it exactly where it was. If you want to check the >> distributor >> position >> to see if the rotor is about where it should be when #1 is at TDC >> ready to >> fire just turn the crank until the valves for #4 are "on the rock" >> instead of >> the number 1 cylinder. >> >> In the four cycle suck, squeeze, bang and blow process TDC in a >> cylinder >> occurs between squeeze and bang, and again between blow and suck. >> The >> blow /suck TDC is when the valves for that cylinder are on the >> rock, given >> a basic, symmetrical cam grind. >> >> The length of the bolt or nut whatever you firmly attach doesn't >> matter, >> though the shorter the better to prevent deflection. Wherever the >> two >> marks for the clockwise and counterclockwise rotations end up, TDC is >> halfway between the two. >> >> mjb. >> >> PS: The wedding in Irvine wasn't too bad, back in Salt Lake, lots of >> email, Team.Net admin stuff, etc. to catch up on. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as dtalbott at archreproduction.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as vintage.racer at comcast.net From timmurph at fastbytes.com Tue Jun 10 21:25:53 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:25:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <003c01c8cb72$db15fa20$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> In the winter of 2007 we worked with Wizard Cooling, Inc. 6149 Powers Road Orchard Park, NY 14127 Telephone 716-662-2392 on an aluminum radiator for our 1961 TR4 race car. We had an original long neck, shortened for the TR4 with the hole in the center for the crank. Even though we had it boiled out it just didn't do the job. I worked with Scott at Wizard Cooling (scott at wizardcooling.com) to design the radiator. It was based on the long neck TR3 radiator they had previously built. We already had the oil cooler and all the mounting and hoses set for the stock radiator so we wanted to keep more or less stock shape and size. It is aluminum and fits the stock mounting. The radiator cap is on a "dropped" ledge so it can clear the hood. It is a little bit thicker than the stock one. It has worked exceptionally well for us. No overheating problems at all. We run about 180 degrees, maybe too cool! Essentially we got the "prototype" and they are now tooled up and have the drawings to make others. It may even be shown on their e-bay store by now. I can send photos of the installation if anyone is interested. I recommend Wizard Cooling and Scott. They did a great job. No commercial interest on my part. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack W. Drews" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From N197TR4 at cs.com Wed Jun 11 08:09:57 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:09:57 EDT Subject: [Fot] Cedar Falls??? now Iowa: The Field of Screams Message-ID: Joe, I know you are pretty close to the floodwater, you guys OK? Henry Frye Triumph Technology Consultants 860.653.3118 (o) - 860.508.3118 (m) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------- Henry, Between tornados and floods we have dodged all bullets. My sister-in-law's house disappeared entirely. Her husband is Parkersburg's Director of Economic Development and gets to start all over again. Some of Iowa is now in Wisconsin. More of it will end up in the Gulf of Mexico Bizarre! But we are high, dry and unmolested. Thanks for asking......and others. See you at Mosport. Joe A From cartravel at pobox.com Wed Jun 11 12:38:34 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:38:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling down a tr3 In-Reply-To: References: <26839965.1212969724592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <925FEADC-E41F-4DF1-838D-EA2E7638FA1A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <48501BAA.7090802@pobox.com> Chris, The validity of your reasoning depends on the air flow. If you have enough air flow, you will have less heating of the air as it moves through. I agree though that it is better to have a large frontal area. On my TR3, I tried what everyone else has suggested. Finally, I installed one of the commodity ($150) Chevy radiators. It has about 1 inch clearance on each side. I've run it in 100 degree heat with no problems. I agree with what Bill says. When you have a large safety margin you know something is wrong when you get overheating. When racing, you have enough to worry about, so this eliminates one worry. Larry Young MadMarx wrote: > The reason for using a 2 row core is that the more tubes are in a row....the > first row gets fresh cold air, the 2nd gets heated air, and all the > following rows get warmer air than the previous ones. > > So why using a 4 or 5 row core when from tube 2 on you are carrying around > useless weight that does cool only 5-10 percent. > So my idea is to use a radiator that does cool with less tube rows. I tried > to find a radiator that is wide as the inlet is. The tubes should be very > flat so that there is no drag. Round tubes in a core are the dead of any air > flow. > > Cheers > Chris > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Wed Jun 11 17:33:02 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:33:02 -0400 Subject: [Fot] No Lbc No free lunch Message-ID: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I took my 1994 Honda Accord ( 50k miles on it ) to Valvoline quickie oil change for a free A/c check. It's not working well. 45 mins later the tec told me it was either a relay or the compressor. While he was working with a meter the car almost stalled out but not quite. He also admitted he did not know which relay was which 10 miles after leaving the shop and with out the A/c on the compressor suddenly kicked in. It felt and sounded like a J brake being engaged. It has settled down some what but still makes a loud noise. So far I am getting a song and a dance from these guy's and no satisfactory explanation. Any info is appreciated thanks rob From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Wed Jun 11 17:44:46 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:44:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] No Lbc No free lunch In-Reply-To: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> References: <000801c8cc1b$7e683140$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> Message-ID: <004101c8cc1d$217cbd00$6a5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > 45 mins > later the tec > told me it was either a relay or the compressor. Meaning he couldn't figure out if the clutch was getting juice, or even whether it was engaged or not. My advice : Take it to someone who knows what they are doing. Any reputable A/C shop (many radiator shops also do A/C) should be able to give you a free estimate that is actually worth something. The loud noise doesn't sound good either. Might be a combination of electrical and refrigeration problems. Randall From henry at henryfrye.com Fri Jun 13 05:37:07 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:37:07 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Brad Penn Racing Oil at Mosport Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060013@server.Triumph.local> To those of us going to Mosport next week, I found a place local to me carrying the whole line of Brad Penn racing oils. If anybody wants me to bring them a case or more, contact me off list. Cheers Henry Frye Triumph Technology Consultants 860.653.3118 (o) - 860.508.3118 (m) From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Fri Jun 13 12:44:34 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:44:34 -0500 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed Message-ID: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. Does anyone know of another source? uncle jack From N197TR4 at cs.com Fri Jun 13 13:11:18 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:11:18 EDT Subject: [Fot] trans part needed Message-ID: In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 13 13:26:53 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:26:53 -0400 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005b01c8cd8b$6ffb7d80$4ff27880$@net> Moss has the top hat in stock- . Check w/ Dave Hagenbuch at TRF. He's off today but will be there tomorrow I believe. I used to know what gears one could interchange from one model to others but it went away when the grey hair arrived. It would be great if that information could be reestablished and put somewhere we could all access it. I have a bunch of NOS TR-6 gears but am unsure where else they can go. Anyone have a better memory than I do?? Russ Moore -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of N197TR4 at cs.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 3:11 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rem9 at frontiernet.net From budscars at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 13:47:12 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:47:12 -0700 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed References: Message-ID: <000801c8cd8e$46e14e40$0202a8c0@Bud> try FASPEC in Portland Oregon...Bob Bray.. info at faspec.com Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed > In a message dated 6/13/2008 1:45:15 PM Central Daylight Time, > vinttr4 at geneseo.net writes: > > >> I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. >> Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I >> got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John >> Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. >> >> Does anyone know of another source? >> >> > > Check with Ed Wood... FOG 1 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From cartravel at pobox.com Fri Jun 13 17:09:57 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:09:57 -0500 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> References: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> I ran into the problem with wrong sized tophat bushings about 5 or 6 years ago. I had to order a couple of bushings from Racestorations at great expense. I pointed the problem out to Moss and thought it had been corrected. I think I've ordered correct ones from US sources since then. Try some of the other sources and ask them to pull one from stock and measure it. Larry Young Jack W. Drews wrote: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I > got from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John > Esposito of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com From timmurph at fastbytes.com Fri Jun 13 20:46:54 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:46:54 -0500 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Vucinic" To: "'Jack W. Drews'" ; Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Jack, > A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a > marginal > difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over > Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's > Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling > temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are > seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the > 'new' > Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result > of > 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the > radiators single, double or triple pass? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Jack W. Drews > Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au > > __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Fri Jun 13 23:01:29 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:01:29 -0700 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: <20080614050129.JSUV7074.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@randall> > On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an > explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than > copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, > but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Interesting line on that page : "Anyone suggesting you deviate from an original brass copper radiator either doesn't know any better or just wants to sell you what's in stock." I wonder which one applies to Wizard ? Randall From tr4racing at googlemail.com Sat Jun 14 05:02:00 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:02:00 +0200 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> References: <200806091334.m59DYI67312552@ns3.geneseo.net> <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: When I look back on my testing with aluminum radiators, most of them have round tubes. Aerodynamic of a round tube is not good compared with a flat tube like most of the copper radiators has. So there is a balance....bad flow through a radiator with big coolant volume in round tubes or less coolant in a copper core with very good heat transfer. I think both will work. Maybe a big aluminum radiator is a way to go. Chris TR 4 #74 -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Tim Murphy Gesendet: Samstag, 14. Juni 2008 04:47 An: Peter Vucinic; 'Jack W. Drews'; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 From dos_gusanos at msn.com Sat Jun 14 05:55:55 2008 From: dos_gusanos at msn.com (dos_gusanos at msn.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 05:55:55 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR4 Block Available Message-ID: Anyone want a TR3-4 engine block? It's in Salt Lake free for the taking or it get's scrapped. Henry Morrison From fubog1 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 07:20:23 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:20:23 -0400 Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again In-Reply-To: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> References: <000c01c8cdc8$e84ea2c0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Message-ID: <8CA9C38893A7DC5-620-472C@WEBMAIL-DC20.sysops.aol.com> There are many many variables in radiator design. Dimensions, crossflow vs vertical tube, core thickness, number of tubes, tube size, staggered vs in-line tubes, fin design, fin count... It's a lot more than just aluminum vs copper/brass. Air flow is just as important as the core (heat exchanger). Glen runnin' cool in florida -----Original Message----- From: Tim Murphy To: Peter Vucinic ; 'Jack W. Drews' ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again On the www.wizardcooling.com under the FAQ section is an explanation as to why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones. Granted, these people sell aluminum radiators, but the answer seems to make some sense. FWIW. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Vucinic" To: "'Jack W. Drews'" ; Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > Jack, > A very interesting topic indeed! As I understand it there is only a > marginal > difference between the thermal efficiency/heat transfer of Copper over > Aluminum materials. If it's weight saving we are talking about, then it's > Aluminum. I am wondering whether those members seeing good cooling > temperature reductions/stability with the Aluminum Radiator Cores, are > seeing this occur due to the internal design of the radiator? Are the > 'new' > Aluminum radiators cooling the water more efficiently as a direct result > of > 'passing' the coolant through the core more times? That is, are the > radiators single, double or triple pass? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Jack W. Drews > Sent: Monday, 9 June 2008 11:34 PM > To: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again > > Good to hear from Jeff and Mike that they make standard size radiators > work. > > A cautionary note, though -- if you want to get an aluminum replica > of a stock radiator, be sure to get one that some other racer has > used and found successful. I've installed a couple of them for guys > who had already purchased them, and they were sorely disappointed in > the small improvement, if any, that it made. Apparently there is a > difference between various suppliers. > > uncle jack > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au > > __________ NOD32 3166 (20080609) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From REK46 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 08:40:24 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:40:24 EDT Subject: [Fot] aluminum radiators again Message-ID: Except for a few low volume,old fashioned mfgrs in europe, all OEMS use flat rad tubes that they make themselves from brazing sheet alum and roll-form/welded tubes....This has been since the 80s when they all converted from copper to alum..These rads are Nokolok brazed with the fin ,tube and headers and have far superior heat transfer by design and matls than copper, and no lead or hazards...They can be stacked and lengthend to any size and fin count....Try Griffin Rad, they bought the Ford process and equip and make an excellent and cold rad to any dimension or fittings....except they use alum tanks and welds instead of the OEM plastic and Orings on the headers. I know..I sold 80% of the alum to all the OEMs for 20 yrs ************** Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) From N197TR4 at cs.com Sat Jun 14 09:27:00 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:27:00 EDT Subject: [Fot] Robert Johns TR2 Racer from the early 50s The Glen? Message-ID: FOT, I dont know Robert Johns or of him, but I am in the process of extending an invitation to him at the Glen. Blake Discher of VTR has encountered him at the TRA Convention in Erie at this very moment. I hear from Blake that his credentials include co-driving with Mike Rothschild in Florida in 1957. 12 Hours of Endurance. Mordy, do have knowledge or visibility to Robert Johns? He would make a great addition to our Paddock as he is still actively involved in Triumphs and likel has a wealth of history. Anyone else know him....Kas? Joe Alexander From cwn74 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 21:09:40 2008 From: cwn74 at aol.com (Clark W. Nicholls) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:09:40 -0400 Subject: [Fot] trans part needed In-Reply-To: <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> References: <200806131844.m5DIiZ2D390910@ns3.geneseo.net> <4852FE45.7030603@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001901c8ce95$41926020$1442a8c0@semperon3400> John is at john at quantumechanics.com and johnesposito at earthlink.net His phone is 203-459-9612 Sometimes he's hard to get ahold of... Clark Clark W. Nicholls '72 Stag '74 Spitfire "Reality... It's not what you think." -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+cwn74=aol.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+cwn74=aol.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Larry Young Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:10 PM To: Jack W. Drews Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] trans part needed I ran into the problem with wrong sized tophat bushings about 5 or 6 years ago. I had to order a couple of bushings from Racestorations at great expense. I pointed the problem out to Moss and thought it had been corrected. I think I've ordered correct ones from US sources since then. Try some of the other sources and ask them to pull one from stock and measure it. Larry Young Jack W. Drews wrote: > I need a second gear and a top hat bushing for a TR4 transmission. > Moss no longer stocks the gear and the last two top hat bushings I got > from them were oversize on the OD. I've tried co contact John Esposito > of Quantum Mechanics but can't seem to get hold of him. > > Does anyone know of another source? > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as cartravel at pobox.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as cwn74 at aol.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 15 12:16:20 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:16:20 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day Message-ID: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> Happy Father's Day gang Racer Bud Spitfire #21 From roadandtrack at bigpond.com Sun Jun 15 19:14:35 2008 From: roadandtrack at bigpond.com (Terry and Cindy) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:14:35 +1000 Subject: [Fot] spitfire & herald gearbox parts new In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080616011434.USWX9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@Rat01> I have a small number of new old stock gearbox gears, hubs etc for the early herald and I think, spitfire gearboxes. I know these are different to later Mk2 onwards boxes as they have smaller syncros. Anyone interested can email me. Thanks, terry From jerrybarr at charter.net Mon Jun 16 07:31:19 2008 From: jerrybarr at charter.net (Jerry Barr) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:31:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Rocker ratio Message-ID: <347A7614-8CFE-461E-B6A0-0E388915421F@charter.net> Good Morning Group, Anyone know the standard rocker ratio for the 1296cc Spitfire engine? Also what ratio roller rockers are being used on this engine. Thanks, Jerry Barr From lang at isis.mit.edu Mon Jun 16 08:43:44 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day In-Reply-To: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> References: <000601c8cf13$e9960370$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, RACER BUD wrote: > Happy Father's Day gang > Racer Bud > Spitfire #21 Do you work for Hallmark? :-) I spent all day working on my children (and my buddy's child), all 73 or 74 TR6s. rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ehusmann53 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 09:07:38 2008 From: ehusmann53 at yahoo.com (Ernest Husmann) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Happy Father's Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <104577.34719.qm@web57603.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Racer Bud definately does not work for Hallmark.  If he did then you would be able to find cards with Spitfires and other Triumphs gracing the art work. --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Robert Lang <lang at isis.mit.edu> wrote: From: Robert Lang <lang at isis.mit.edu> Subject: Re: [Fot] Happy Father's Day To: "RACER BUD" <budscars at comcast.net> Cc: fot at autox.team.net Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:43 AM On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, RACER BUD wrote: > Happy Father's Day gang > Racer Bud > Spitfire #21 Do you work for Hallmark? :-) I spent all day working on my children (and my buddy's child), all 73 or 74 TR6s. rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as ehusmann53 at yahoo.com From trmarty at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 10:25:05 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:25:05 -0400 Subject: [Fot] 1296 Spity leak Message-ID: I have a tired 1296 Spitfire that I am going to try and nurse through a couple of autox's. It has a pretty good oil seepage between the block and head on the drivers side about mid-engine. The engine has quite a bit of blowby going on. It also has a brand new head gasket. Do you think it could be the blowby pressurizing things and pushing the oil out? I do have the block and valve cover vented to bleed off some of the pressure. I am pondering re-replacing the head gasket but I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to do it for two autox's:), especially if it's the blowby causing the seepage and a new head gasket wouldn't fix it. Your thoughts? Oh, head is dead flat and block is pretty flat. Thanks, Marty _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Tue Jun 17 05:16:41 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:16:41 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats Message-ID: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about this one: Why do top hat bushings break? uncle jack From RustyTR4 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 06:41:41 2008 From: RustyTR4 at aol.com (RustyTR4 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:41:41 EDT Subject: [Fot] top hats Message-ID: I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From pvucinic at netspace.net.au Tue Jun 17 07:25:29 2008 From: pvucinic at netspace.net.au (Peter Vucinic) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:25:29 +1000 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have a rotational/twisting force/pressure and a thrust/longitudinal pressure all acting on the same piece of bronze/component, all at the same time and/or in any combination at any time. Along with this factor is the lack of a decent internal radius where there thrust portion of the bush meets the journal portion of the bush. This leads to a 'weak' area where these two features meet, and as a result of 'point loading' at this position, the thrust portion of the bush usually 'breaks' away from the bush portion. We'll that's my take on the problem! Kind Regards Peter Vucinic TR-4 WORKS Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of RustyTR4 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 June 2008 10:42 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3193 (20080617) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From fubog1 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 09:09:05 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:09:05 -0400 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9EA3377C775A-BEC-FD8@MBLK-M09.sysops.aol.com> Yes I think all is true & contributes to the failure but the endfloat is the killer. There's a lot of shock thrust load going on in there during on/off throttle, especially when second comes up against third, & the tophat is supported only by contact with the end of the third gear bush. Glen -----Original Message----- From: Peter Vucinic To: RustyTR4 at aol.com; vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 9:25 am Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats You have a rotational/twisting force/pressure and a thrust/longitudinal pressure all acting on the same piece of bronze/component, all at the same time and/or in any combination at any time. Along with this factor is the lack of a decent internal radius where there thrust portion of the bush meets the journal portion of the bush. This leads to a 'weak' area where these two features meet, and as a result of 'point loading' at this position, the thrust portion of the bush usually 'breaks' away from the bush portion. We'll that's my take on the problem! Kind Regards Peter Vucinic TR-4 WORKS Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+pvucinic=netspace.net.au at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of RustyTR4 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 June 2008 10:42 PM To: vinttr4 at geneseo.net; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats I think it's play in the main shaft, as things ware the gears move on the main shaft, and that what's cracks the collar. Matt Matt Bakes Triumph Rescue (610) 845 - 8217 _www.TriumphRescue.com_ (http://www.triumphrescue.com/) British Wiring, Inc. 866-461-9050 _www.BritishWiring.com_ (http://www.britishwiring.com/) 617 Walnut St. Bally, PA. 19503 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as pvucinic at netspace.net.au __________ NOD32 3193 (20080617) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From cartravel at pobox.com Tue Jun 17 11:28:45 2008 From: cartravel at pobox.com (Larry Young) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:28:45 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran into the problem with wrong sized bushings. Larry Young > Jack W. Drews wrote: >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about >> this one: >> >> Why do top hat bushings break? >> >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 21:41:46 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:41:46 +1100 Subject: [Fot] top hats References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> This is what John Esposito found in the trans in my TR3/4 when he was swapping out the mainshaft to fit an O.D. unit. He marveled at the resourcefulness of the "adaptation" but advised rebuilding the trans while it was disassembled. (Actually sold me a rebuilt unit from the shelf that has leaked like a sieve since, but that's another story.) Granted, there were other problems he identified that figured into the prognosis, but I'm pretty certain I remember him saying that the seat in the trans case was worn beyond possible use with a standard type of bushing and that the separate thrust washer (made of highly polished steel with grooves cut into the wear face for lubing), would cause further and rapid wear of the case. Steve P.----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Young" To: "FOT" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and > a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran > into the problem with wrong sized bushings. > Larry Young > > Jack W. Drews wrote: > >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about > >> this one: > >> > >> Why do top hat bushings break? > >> > >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Tue Jun 17 12:50:46 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <200806171116.m5HBGhfu455040@ns3.geneseo.net> <4857F3EB.5030207@pobox.com> <4857F44D.2000108@pobox.com> <001401c8d02c$119fc180$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: Steve, That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top hat. With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Preiss Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:42 PM To: Larry Young Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats This is what John Esposito found in the trans in my TR3/4 when he was swapping out the mainshaft to fit an O.D. unit. He marveled at the resourcefulness of the "adaptation" but advised rebuilding the trans while it was disassembled. (Actually sold me a rebuilt unit from the shelf that has leaked like a sieve since, but that's another story.) Granted, there were other problems he identified that figured into the prognosis, but I'm pretty certain I remember him saying that the seat in the trans case was worn beyond possible use with a standard type of bushing and that the separate thrust washer (made of highly polished steel with grooves cut into the wear face for lubing), would cause further and rapid wear of the case. Steve P.----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Young" To: "FOT" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > Here's another question. Why not have a plain bushing (no top hat) and > a separate thrust washer? I contemplated doing this when I first ran > into the problem with wrong sized bushings. > Larry Young > > Jack W. Drews wrote: > >> We haven't had a good technical discussion for awhile, so how about > >> this one: > >> > >> Why do top hat bushings break? > >> > >> uncle jack _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Tue Jun 17 13:06:28 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:06:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top > hat. I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the mainshaft, with the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. > With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through > machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part of the case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial roller) bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so inadequate ? The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of course, the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got to solve that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & thrust washer. Randall From spitfireracer at xsmail.com Tue Jun 17 18:56:23 2008 From: spitfireracer at xsmail.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 Fiberglass Hood & Western Wheels for sale Message-ID: <866FC7B0-D01D-4AE2-A6AD-64BCBBB39B29@xsmail.com> I have a GT6 MkI MkII fiberglass hood for sale. Modified for SU Carb clearance. Mounting hardware fitted I also have 4 western pseudo-minilite wheels, 13x5.5, spitfire/gt6 bolt pattern, 4" backspacing. 3 black, 1 silver finish, the 3 black are mounted with old slicks. I'm offering up here before I put on fleabay this weekend... Photos of both are at the gallery link below. Contact me off-list if interested or have other questions.. Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher 1971 Spit MkIV/1500 RaceCar 1971 TR6 TBD 1976 TR7 Street 1968 GT6 Vintage "I'm so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. Its the excitement only a free man can feel. A free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain" From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Tue Jun 17 20:48:22 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (Rob) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Fot] top hats References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> I would like to nominate uncle jack to make a run of new and improved top hats go Celts 41-67 3rd 1/4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats >> That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top >> hat. > > I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the mainshaft, with > the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. > >> With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through >> machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. > > Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part of the > case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial > roller) > bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so > inadequate ? > > The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of course, > the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got to solve > that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & thrust > washer. > > Randall > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From billsohl at optonline.net Tue Jun 17 21:06:26 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:06:26 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Fw: NJTA 1966 TR-4A IRS FOR SALE Message-ID: FYI to the FOT. This is from my local Triumph club, the New Jersey Triumph Association. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: mewy at comcast.net I have a 1966 TR4A IRS that I need to sell. British Racing Green with Saddle interior. Tires and brakes have 5000 miles on them. Carbs rebuilt in Feb. 08. New stainless exhaust. Bill Dewar has done work on it in the past. Asking $5000.00. Available to be seen at any time. Call 862-219-8848. Thanks, Neil Pembridge From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 22:03:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:03:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> <001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> Message-ID: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> We don't need no stinking top hats, it was a bad design when they made them. We need a good thrust bearing, bearing face, and bushing. On Jun 17, 2008, at 7:48 PM, Rob wrote: > I would like to nominate uncle jack to make a run of new and > improved top > hats go Celts 41-67 3rd 1/4 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randall" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] top hats > > >>> That sounds like a countershaft bushing issue not the top >>> hat. >> >> I agree. The "top hat" bushing goes in the middle of the >> mainshaft, with >> the 'brim' between 2nd & 3rd gear and the 'crown' carrying 2nd gear. >> >>> With cases getting scarce they are worth saving through >>> machining and adding a shim to fix the problem you describe. >> >> Ok, a bit of thread drift here ... if you were machining that part >> of the >> case anyway, why not go all the way and put in a Torrington (radial >> roller) >> bearing ala Stag instead of the simple thrust washer that seems so >> inadequate ? >> >> The Torringtons seem readily available and reasonably priced. Of >> course, >> the tool to cut that surface would be interesting, but you've got >> to solve >> that problem anyway even if you're just cleaning it up for a shim & >> thrust >> washer. >> >> Randall >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Tue Jun 17 22:39:26 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:39:26 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> References: <20080617190628.GPOX9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall><001b01c8d0ed$c628fa60$6701a8c0@DFN4YV61> <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000601c8d0fd$4f5c6e20$0302a8c0@newcomputer> -----Original Message----- Bill said: We don't need no stinking top hats, No, all we need are Tams! We ain't gentlemen racers after all! Joe C. From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Wed Jun 18 08:15:53 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:15:53 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Top hats Message-ID: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Thanks for the responses to the question on the top hat bushing. I asked the question because of the latest rebuild of my transmission, with the usual struggle with the main shaft assembly and setting the end float on the bushings and gears. I've thought about this every time I've rebuilt a box. I don't understand what is happening in the gearbox that caused the designers to use this design bushing. There must be some reason. Several guys responded with the same thought that I had in mind, which is, why not make this assembly from a washer and bushings instead of using the top hat design? Spits don't have top hat bushings, and neither do a host of other cars. Too bad it would be such a time and effort consuming exercise to prove out in real life. I guess converting to one of the current production five speed boxes might have a better cost - benefit ratio. uncle jack From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 00:25:09 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Top hats References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack W. Drews" To: Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:15 AM Subject: [Fot] Top hats > Thanks for the responses to the question on the top hat bushing. > > I asked the question because of the latest rebuild of my > transmission, with the usual struggle with the main shaft assembly > and setting the end float on the bushings and gears. I've thought > about this every time I've rebuilt a box. I don't understand what is > happening in the gearbox that caused the designers to use this design > bushing. There must be some reason. > > Several guys responded with the same thought that I had in mind, > which is, why not make this assembly from a washer and bushings > instead of using the top hat design? Spits don't have top hat > bushings, and neither do a host of other cars. > > Too bad it would be such a time and effort consuming exercise to > prove out in real life. I guess converting to one of the current > production five speed boxes might have a better cost - benefit ratio. > > uncle jack > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net From fogbro1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 18 20:24:38 2008 From: fogbro1 at comcast.net (Ed Woods) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:24:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Top hats References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> Message-ID: <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> Jack, Has anyone tried the Moss steel top hat bushing? What are the thoughts on using it with the brass 3rd speed bush? Ed From budscars at comcast.net Wed Jun 18 20:32:16 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Fot] MONTEREY HISTORICS Message-ID: <002d01c8d1b4$b13d4440$0702a8c0@Bud> Hi Gang...If any of you are racing in the Monterey Historics at Laguna Seca in August...Please let me know, and I will put the info on My Newsletter,..and..It will be great to meet you at the track! Racer Bud.... From lang at isis.mit.edu Thu Jun 19 08:05:16 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Top hats In-Reply-To: <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> References: <200806181416.m5IEG0AN381803@ns3.geneseo.net> <030201c8d1b3$9f7a4240$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Ed Woods wrote: > Jack, > > Has anyone tried the Moss steel top hat bushing? What are the thoughts on > using it with the brass 3rd speed bush? Using steel with brass is a bad idea. If you use the steel 2nd bush, use the steel 3rd bush. The steel 3rd bush is dimensionally identical to the brass. Although I think the yellow parts are bronze, but that's nit-picking. > Ed rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 19 10:52:08 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:52:08 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Top hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <082501c8d22c$d0c478b0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > Using steel with brass is a bad idea. Maybe that's why the brass ones don't work so well ? All that steel around them ? Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Thu Jun 19 12:18:47 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:18:47 -0700 Subject: [Fot] top hats In-Reply-To: <29D1058C-4352-4151-B624-3FCD174B54BF@bnj.com> Message-ID: <083c01c8d238$eb0453b0$ad5636cc@jdnet.deere.com> > We don't need no stinking top hats, it was a bad design when they made > them. We need a good thrust bearing, bearing face, and bushing. "Bluto's right ! Psychotic, but right. We gotta take these b...." From Guyots3 at wmconnect.com Thu Jun 19 13:36:53 2008 From: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com (Guyots3 at wmconnect.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:36:53 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fot-request at autox.team.net writes: > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 > From: "Steven Preiss" > Subject: Re: [Fot] Top hats > To: "Jack W. Drews" > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0 at stevenhgi8vu27> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car > ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? > By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be > compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). > Steve P. An interesting point. It came to my attention that when Toyota went into the South African market, they took over the old Standard-Triumph International factory at Durban, and most probably other ex-Triumph factories in different Triumph markets around the world also. I heard that Toyota took care to preserve much of the historic documentation, and engineering papers that they found there, something I doubt would have happened if it had been the other way around. The Japanese were always keen to copy, learn and improve on Western designs, eventually taking over the business. Maybe there is more of our Triumphs in modern Toyotas than we realise? I know it's a Mazda, but you only have to look at the Miata. Regards Lion From spreiss at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 23:31:48 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:31:48 +1100 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") References: Message-ID: <003001c8d1cd$c5f29750$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Hence the interchangability of the early girling brake calipers used on toyota coronas and Hilux pickup trucks with the 16P and later PB (Metric mounting bolt shank bores) used on the TR250 and 6s? I think the wheel mounting centers are the same on the early corollas and celicas. And while the toyota trannys are much more substantial units i understand that the ratios are nearly the same. Also, the early corona engines were 19XX ccs. And the early Datsun cars and trucks used SUs, albeit with aluminum ohc crossflow heads. Yes, appropriate and improve. It's the way of the world, really. Wouldn't it be swell if Toyota or Nissan would reintroduce the marque? Toyota has yet to go retro, to my knowledge. Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com To: fot at autox.team.net Cc: spreiss at verizon.net Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 6:36 AM Subject: "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fot-request at autox.team.net writes: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:25:09 +1100 From: "Steven Preiss" Subject: Re: [Fot] Top hats To: "Jack W. Drews" Cc: fot at autox.team.net Message-ID: <000201c8d10d$32afef30$2f01a8c0 at stevenhgi8vu27> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My thought, precisely. However, would this conversion make the car ineligible for racing under most vintage club rules? By the time all the inadequate components are swapped out, we might be compelled to rebadge our cars "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs"). Steve P. An interesting point. It came to my attention that when Toyota went into the South African market, they took over the old Standard-Triumph International factory at Durban, and most probably other ex-Triumph factories in different Triumph markets around the world also. I heard that Toyota took care to preserve much of the historic documentation, and engineering papers that they found there, something I doubt would have happened if it had been the other way around. The Japanese were always keen to copy, learn and improve on Western designs, eventually taking over the business. Maybe there is more of our Triumphs in modern Toyotas than we realise? I know it's a Mazda, but you only have to look at the Miata. Regards Lion From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 19 14:47:05 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:47:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From RKramer at rdoequipment.com Thu Jun 19 15:05:06 2008 From: RKramer at rdoequipment.com (Kramer, Robert) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:05:06 -0500 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 exhaust and tried to replicate that. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com From BillDentin at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:13:33 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:13:33 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: In a message dated 06/19/2008 3:47:25 PM Central Daylight Time, DSPGTi at aol.com writes: > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > I think LOTUS too. I think I may have told this story before, but when the MIATAs first came out and became popular, a local club came to 'do touring laps' at a VSCDA ROAD AMERICA event. In a condescending manner, I looked down my nose and asked one of the drivers how he liked driving his 'Jap Sports car.' He was very pleasant and answered, "It's a lot like driving your TRIUMPH, but I don't have to work on it." Bill (Damdinger) ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From fubog1 at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:19:35 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:19:35 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA0694E9C6574-9B8-2E83@MBLK-M13.sysops.aol.com> Yes I remember reading that they tried 40+ exhaust systems, trying to find one that sounded like a "sports car", whatever that may sound like...? Glen -----Original Message----- From: Kramer, Robert To: DSPGTi at aol.com ; Guyots3 at wmconnect.com ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 exhaust and tried to replicate that. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DSPGTi at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially in the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double overhead cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. Dave Y **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From koblinger at verizon.net Thu Jun 19 15:30:03 2008 From: koblinger at verizon.net (Kurt Oblinger) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:30:03 -0700 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> The original Miata was most certainly inspired by the original Lotus Elan. The project leader for the Miata was a guy named Bob Hall, who I knew back in my misspent youth when my friends and I used to race around on a deserted piece of road in the Hollywood Hills called Mulholland Dr. Years later Bob landed a job with Mazda and started lobbying for them to build a modern interpretation of a '60s British sports car. When the project got going and a design team was formed, Bob bought an Elan for the team to use as inspiration. One of the lead designers on the team was Mark Jordan, son of Bob Jordan, head of GM styling. Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Cheers, Kurt BillDentin at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 06/19/2008 3:47:25 PM Central Daylight Time, > DSPGTi at aol.com writes: > > > >> When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other >> than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially >> in >> the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been >> influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, >> >> double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double >> overhead >> >> > > I think LOTUS too. I think I may have told this story before, but when the > MIATAs first came out and became popular, a local club came to 'do touring > laps' at a VSCDA ROAD AMERICA event. In a condescending manner, I looked down my > nose and asked one of the drivers how he liked driving his 'Jap Sports car.' > He was very pleasant and answered, "It's a lot like driving your TRIUMPH, but > I don't have to work on it." > > Bill (Damdinger) > > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as koblinger at verizon.net From tedtsimx at bright.net Thu Jun 19 15:34:48 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:34:48 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485AD0F8.7020601@bright.net> Kramer, Robert wrote: > I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 > exhaust and tried to replicate that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM > To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they > learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. > > Dave Y > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as tedtsimx at bright.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM > Bob, one of my customer's was one of the 3 original Miata design team members. Being a Brit car guy, that is the sound he wanted on the exhaust note. After a bunch of study, they settled on an MGA. Ted -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 19 15:42:46 2008 From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com (Bob) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:42:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485AD2D6.50309@cfl.rr.com> Pretty hard to duplicate the sound of a six cylinder with a 4 cylinder. Kramer, Robert wrote: > I'd have to agree except that I read that they studied the sound of the TR6 > exhaust and tried to replicate that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+rkramer=rdoequipment.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > DSPGTi at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:47 PM > To: Guyots3 at wmconnect.com; fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > > When the Miata first came out, everyone was calling it the new MGB. Other > than similar size, and two seat convertable, I saw no resemblence especially > in > the drive train. I don't think I can see any features that may have been > influenced by Triumph either. If anything, maybe a Lotus. Full independent, > double wishbone unequal length control arms in all four corners, double > overhead > cam engine, 4 wheel disc brakes. Don't sound like an MG to me. Maybe they > learned how NOT to make an IRS from Triumph. > > Dave Y > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rkramer at rdoequipment.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From DSPGTi at aol.com Thu Jun 19 15:53:04 2008 From: DSPGTi at aol.com (DSPGTi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:53:04 EDT Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Message-ID: They missed the mark on sound. Only the fully prepped F or E Prod cars sound good. The rest just kind of buzzes if you know what I mean. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 19 18:03:21 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain our Club licensing fees Message-ID: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> SCCA, NASA, (name your organization) are down right cheap compared to what F1 drivers now have to pay for their licenses. http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43035 Fernando Alonso has labelled the increased in superlicence fees as "ridiculous" and says the Grand Prix Drivers' Association is discussing its response to the change. Last year drivers had to pay 1,725 (#1,286) plus 456 (#340) per point scored in the previous years championship for the mandatory superlicence, but from this season that figure has risen to 10,000 (#7,452) plus 2,000 (#1,490) per point scored in 2007. FIA president Max Mosley believes the change was necessary so that drivers were making an adequate contribution to funding safety improvements. However GPDA director Alonso has hit out at the extent of the price hike. "I think it is a ridiculous amount," he told reporters in Franace. "We drivers should pay our superlicence at a reasonable price, thats all. "It cannot change by one thousand percent from one year to another." There have been rumours in the Magny-Cours paddock that the drivers are considering strike action - a prospect that Alonso did not rule out. "I think we have not many possibilities, but for sure its one of the things we are talking about in the GPDA," he said. "Maybe we need to do something all together, because as a group we have much more [influence] than one single person." But world champion Kimi Raikkonen believes strike action is unlikely. "Of course its better if its not so expensive and its the same for everybody, but I dont think theres any reason to go on strike and not race," he said. "I dont think thats the right way to go but it would be nice if we could reduce it. "Its never going to happen that all the drivers will strike. "Hopefully there is some nice solution that can be found at some point." Alonso said he is not only pushing for a reduction from 2009, but for the sums already paid this year to be refunded. "We need to find an agreement, for this year as well," he told ITV Sport's Ted Kravitz. "What we paid already for 2008, maybe we need to have a refund or something, because it was something ridiculous. "All the drivers agree about this, so hopefully we can put some efforts into that." Championship leader Robert Kubica added that he was uncomfortable with the fact that drivers who scored fewer points had to pay a lower fee, as drivers' wages did not always match their scoring rate. "Its quite a lot of money, especially if you are scoring points like Lewis (Hamilton) did last year and its your first year in Formula 1," he said. "But another point is that experienced drivers who dont have a quick car are not scoring points, so they dont care because they dont have to pay. "So I think it will be difficult to get all drivers to have the same idea but we are trying to convince the FIA to reduce the cost." Kubica added that he was fully supportive of the FIA's safety initiatives and happy to help fund them, but just wanted to see an equal superlicence price for everyone on the grid. "The FIA is saying that it goes to safety and I agree, safety is very important, so in the end, if the standard of safety can improve, we should pay for it," he said. "My case last year and Heikki Kovalainens (accident) this year in Barcelona show that the FIA is making a great effort and doing a very good job in safety. "But then I dont see the point why some drivers have to pay more and some others not. "In the end, we are all on the same track driving F1 cars." From mark at bradakis.com Thu Jun 19 19:46:22 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:46:22 -0600 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 19 20:39:04 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:39:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> Message-ID: <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Granted. But do the math. $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should have some basis in reality. Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and three test drivers (if not more). Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not cost so much for the teams. Other drivers license costs. Kubica: $136,400 Rosberg: $77,500 Truilli: $40,300 Sutil: $18,600 Nakajima: $15,500 At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than we do! > >Fred Hodgson From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:30:04 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:30:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <04DAA4CE-11E6-4414-BDFF-C6C101412275@bnj.com> And/or a Maserati mistral. I've had WAY too many people ask me if it's a 240Z On Jun 19, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote: >> Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. > > Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the > house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. > > mjb. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:41:30 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:41:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> <20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Message-ID: <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Thu Jun 19 22:56:30 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:56:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> Message-ID: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> This extended conversation has failed to consider that the whole F1 environment is several orders of magnitude above what we are all used to dealing with. What seems to be a lot of money to us, is chump change to the teams and individuals in that end of the sport. The top teams are all spending sums that exceed many country's GNP and think nothing of it. For a fine to be meaningful in that environment, it has to be that high. What I find absurd is the constant redefinition of the rules that are supposed to cut costs but end up making the sport more expensive because every couple of years the teams have to start over with totally new designs for critical components. It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:42 PM To: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From tr4racing at googlemail.com Thu Jun 19 23:26:00 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:26:00 +0200 Subject: [Fot] The FIA In-Reply-To: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> <5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com> <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 20 05:33:22 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:33:22 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: Compare your GT6, 240 Zed, etc... with either an E-Type coupe or an early Ferrari GTO, and then you will have gotten to the starting place. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Bradakis To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 20 05:58:13 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:58:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") In-Reply-To: References: <485ACFDB.6010206@verizon.net> <485B0BEE.8070300@bradakis.com> Message-ID: <000001c8d2cc$ed9ab6c0$c8d02440$@net> Same goes for the rear shot of a 308/328 Ferrari and the C-4 Corvette. Russ Moore -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+rem9=frontiernet.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Terry Stetler Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:33 AM To: fot at autox.team.net; Mark J Bradakis Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") Compare your GT6, 240 Zed, etc... with either an E-Type coupe or an early Ferrari GTO, and then you will have gotten to the starting place. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark J Bradakis To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] "Triotas" (or "Toyumphs") > Put an original Miata and an Elan side by side and its obvious. Many years ago I had a '71 GT6 squaretail parked along the side of the house, right next to a '71 Datsun 240Z. Uncanny. mjb. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as rem9 at frontiernet.net From kaskas at cox.net Fri Jun 20 07:41:49 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 6:41:49 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: <000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> The most expensive thing in ANY kind of racing is CHANGE. ---- Joe Curry wrote: ============= This extended conversation has failed to consider that the whole F1 environment is several orders of magnitude above what we are all used to dealing with. What seems to be a lot of money to us, is chump change to the teams and individuals in that end of the sport. The top teams are all spending sums that exceed many country's GNP and think nothing of it. For a fine to be meaningful in that environment, it has to be that high. What I find absurd is the constant redefinition of the rules that are supposed to cut costs but end up making the sport more expensive because every couple of years the teams have to start over with totally new designs for critical components. It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:42 PM To: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. The whole FISA/FIA takeover was sleazy beyond belief and all the people involved are the strangest cutthroats I've ever heard of. In any real world we'd vote them off the planet. Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP. The philosophy behind the license fee is despicable--the better you do the more it costs you? The more valuable you are to the sport the more it costs for you to participate. Who dreamed this up--the last remaining commie? The sooner they kick Mosely's ass out the better. Goodbye Max, don't let the door hit you in the butt. On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:39 PM, David W. Riddle wrote: > Granted. But do the math. > > $15,500 + $3,100 per point to hold a Superlicense is beyond excessive > even given the unreal money in F1. The cost for the license should > have some basis in reality. > > Hamilton last year earned 109 points last year. That means his > Superlicense this year cost him $353,400! Kovalainen's license cost > him $108,500. So if McLaren is picking up the tab for the drivers > Ron Dennis had to shell out over $500,000 for two race drivers and > three test drivers (if not more). > > Of course Max "I'm not a Nazi" Mosley is also complaining about > wanting budget reductions put in place so that the sport does not > cost so much for the teams. > > Other drivers license costs. > > Kubica: $136,400 > Rosberg: $77,500 > Truilli: $40,300 > Sutil: $18,600 > Nakajima: $15,500 > > At 06:54 PM 6/19/2008, Fred & Mary Hodgson wrote: >> Yeah - but they have a little more help ($) to offset the cost than >> we do! >> >> Fred Hodgson > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net -- Never be beaten by equipment From tlizzard at msn.com Fri Jun 20 10:58:11 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:58:11 -0400 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> Message-ID: "It is truly a rich man's sport. Joe C." It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in excess of $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams are close to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do you think a fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more than that on brake components for one race weekend. I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale however. Terry Stetler From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 20 11:04:23 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:04:23 EDT Subject: [Fot] And we complain... Message-ID: Its just another self pro-liferating professional sport....as long as the public keeps paying and the sheiks keep spending,...who cares ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From billbab at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 11:30:25 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:30:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... In-Reply-To: References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> Message-ID: <6F808E87-D318-4FB0-9DAD-F61FBFCC1CEF@gmail.com> I actually wasn't reflecting on whether or not the fine was proportional, but on the effect to the fans. When you fine a team 100 million you make it very clear that nothing going on in F1 has any relevance to normal human endeavor. I enjoy F1 tremendously, I Tivo all the races. But I think the governance is strange and arbitrary. I've watched the politics for years, I think the FIA harms the sport continuously. On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Terry Stetler wrote: > "It is truly a rich man's sport. > > Joe C." > > It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in > excess of > $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams > are close > to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do > you think a > fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more > than that on > brake components for one race weekend. > I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale > however. > > Terry Stetler > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Billbab at gmail.com www.kenalu.com www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog From wgrosenbach at juno.com Fri Jun 20 12:15:21 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:15:21 -0600 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... Message-ID: <20080620.121524.3008.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>> "It is truly a rich man's sport. Recall, if you will, when most of our toy cars were new, Formula-1 cars were often transported on open trailers, paddocked in the dirt, using war surplus tents for shade, drivers wore cotton drivers' suits, and $10 steering wheels. Money & Power corrupt. Times change. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Beauty Advice Just Got a Makeover Read reviews about the beauty products you have always wanted to try http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7UzvJ42ecbOQ9bGrLel7QQigYt0IivJKSBUaweoPtkVsIZM/ From timmurph at fastbytes.com Fri Jun 20 12:19:22 2008 From: timmurph at fastbytes.com (Tim Murphy) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:19:22 -0500 Subject: [Fot] And we complain... References: <20080620094149.63TZV.324174.imail@fed1rmwml42> <6F808E87-D318-4FB0-9DAD-F61FBFCC1CEF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002901c8d302$2af42da0$6f02a8c0@TimsMilwPC> Couldn't agree more with your assesment of the FIA's "contribution" to the sport. I enjoy the F1 races also, finally got satellite TV so I could record them myself. Tim 1961 TR4 #317 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Babcock" To: "Terry Stetler" Cc: ; "FOT Triumph" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] And we complain... >I actually wasn't reflecting on whether or not the fine was > proportional, but on the effect to the fans. When you fine a team 100 > million you make it very clear that nothing going on in F1 has any > relevance to normal human endeavor. > > I enjoy F1 tremendously, I Tivo all the races. But I think the > governance is strange and arbitrary. I've watched the politics for > years, I think the FIA harms the sport continuously. > > On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Terry Stetler wrote: > >> "It is truly a rich man's sport. >> >> Joe C." >> >> It is well beyond that. Both Ferrari and Toyota are spending in >> excess of >> $400 million US, per season, on Formula 1. Most of the other teams >> are close >> to that. Hence the outrageous to us fine leveled at McClaren. Do >> you think a >> fine of say, $50k, would mean anything to them? They spend more >> than that on >> brake components for one race weekend. >> I do think the scheme for Superlicense charges is beyond the pale >> however. >> >> Terry Stetler >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com > > Bill Babcock > Billbab at gmail.com > www.kenalu.com > www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as timmurph at fastbytes.com From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 20 12:20:13 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:20:13 -0600 Subject: [Fot] The FIA References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New Haven Ct. area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. Does any one Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " GROUP 44 APPROVED " Any one know what the history on that may mean Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: [Fot] The FIA The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com; fot at autox.team.net Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 20 12:29:36 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:29:36 -0600 Subject: [Fot] The FIA References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Swope To: fot at autox.team.net ; MadMarx Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] The FIA I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New Haven Ct. area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. Does any one Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " GROUP 44 APPROVED " Any one know what the history on that may mean Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com> (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: MadMarx> To: fot at autox.team.net> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: [Fot] The FIA The FIA is a very inconsistent organization. Rules are changed every year. Always you have to work at the car to maintain it legal. The good thing - the German Triumph Competition has its own rules and they didn't change for years now. But I feel sorry for the FIA historic groups - they are busy screwing at their cars every year. I hope you don't mind that I own a license of the FIA organization that is lead by the Fuehrer :-( -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net ing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net > [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Bill Babcock Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 06:42 An: David W. Riddle Cc: wheeltowheel at wheeltowheel.com>; fot at autox.team.net> Betreff: Re: [Fot] And we complain... The FIA is one of the most painfully weird organizations on the planet. ......... Mosley doing sadistic sex acts dressed as a Nazi is the tip of the iceberg. He ignored his responsibility to keep the sport rational when he assessed McLaren that absurd fine. How can we take F1 seriously as a competitive sport when 100 million bucks is a fine. That's not a fine, that's a small country's GNP............. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html> Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot stinfo/fot> You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com> _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From Lunkercars at earthlink.net Fri Jun 20 16:59:27 2008 From: Lunkercars at earthlink.net (Greg "Lunker" Hilyer) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:59:27 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Info anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <20080620000341.RNJA2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net><20080620023927.UFHO2752.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net><5B667A60-4490-4179-9DE4-2CA6A4CFA36A@bnj.com><000301c8d292$015d0270$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: This is the white w/green TR4 #06 that I mentioned a few weeks ago when I introduced Bill for nomination. Bill- what # was the car when it was orange/yellow? Also, I've attached a comment from Jerry Van Vlack [see below] that may pertain to your car. Greg "Lunker" Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM Greg, for what it's worth I last saw an ex Group 44 TR-4 at Watkins Glen in 1971 or 1972. It may well have been owned by a guy from Conn, although I thought he was from Philadelphia. I am racking my brain to remember his name and if you have a log book from those years and can get me a name I'm sure I will remember his name. I know that car was an ex Group 44 car as I spent some time with the owner and looked the car all over. At the time I was a crew for a low budget TR4 racer out of Pittsburgh and I was amazed at what Group 44 had done to that car. It was fast and well driven. We had a spectacular engine explosion and spent the balance of the weekend at the local Wineries. The weekend was combined with a Trans-Am or Can Am event. Good times. Jerry Van Vlack I remember his name..........it was David Manners, is that a previous owner of your car? If yes then it is a previous Group 44 car. At least it's the one I saw. JVV On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bill Swope wrote: > I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New > Haven Ct. > area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. > Does any one > Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " > GROUP 44 > APPROVED " > Any one know what the history on that may mean > Wm. (Bill) Swope > dba C ME GO Racing > 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW > Los Ranchos, N M 87107 > bswope959 at msn.com > (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MadMarx > To: fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM > Subject: [Fot] The FIA > Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 From jaboruch at netzero.net Fri Jun 20 17:39:32 2008 From: jaboruch at netzero.net (Joe Boruch) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:39:32 GMT Subject: [Fot] Info anyone? Message-ID: <20080620.193932.1947.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com> If this is the car that I am thinking of, it was one of Bob Kilpatrick's cars, but it was usually raced by one of his crew. They raced it with the SCCA with the Volvo Historic Series, which is now known as the HRG (Historic Racing Group of the SCCA in the Northeast Division). As I reacall, they never had much success in getting the car to complete a race. Last I saw it, it was at NHIS and had lots of metal shavings in the oil. I offered to build them an engine that would stay together, but they did not like my price. I heard that they sold it to someone out west (Colorado?). Apparently the car had raced at some point in the 70's in the NE. I saw it for sale at the Lime Rock Vintage festival, which I believe is where Bob bought it from. Bob now lives in Florida and last I heard he is still racing his MGB down there. Joe(B) -- "Greg \"Lunker\" Hilyer" wrote: This is the white w/green TR4 #06 that I mentioned a few weeks ago when I introduced Bill for nomination. Bill- what # was the car when it was orange/yellow? Also, I've attached a comment from Jerry Van Vlack [see below] that may pertain to your car. Greg "Lunker" Hilyer TR4 #314 Albuquerque NM Greg, for what it's worth I last saw an ex Group 44 TR-4 at Watkins Glen in 1971 or 1972. It may well have been owned by a guy from Conn, although I thought he was from Philadelphia. I am racking my brain to remember his name and if you have a log book from those years and can get me a name I'm sure I will remember his name. I know that car was an ex Group 44 car as I spent some time with the owner and looked the car all over. At the time I was a crew for a low budget TR4 racer out of Pittsburgh and I was amazed at what Group 44 had done to that car. It was fast and well driven. We had a spectacular engine explosion and spent the balance of the weekend at the local Wineries. The weekend was combined with a Trans-Am or Can Am event. Good times. Jerry Van Vlack I remember his name..........it was David Manners, is that a previous owner of your car? If yes then it is a previous Group 44 car. At least it's the one I saw. JVV On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bill Swope wrote: > I recently purchased a race prepared car that came out of the New > Haven Ct. > area in the 70des. There is a Former Glory Racing sticker on it. > Does any one > Know who this was ? Contact? THE car has a good size decal " > GROUP 44 > APPROVED " > Any one know what the history on that may mean > Wm. (Bill) Swope > dba C ME GO Racing > 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW > Los Ranchos, N M 87107 > bswope959 at msn.com > (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MadMarx > To: fot at autox.team.net > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:26 PM > Subject: [Fot] The FIA > Sorry guys it's a 64 TR-4 Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jaboruch at netzero.net ____________________________________________________________ Scan, remove and block Spyware. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2231/fc/Ioyw6ijlZvPV30KrXYejPE5my9DGbg 2x6fkITnFNUEfIkDDCV4XYHw/ From Gt6steve at aol.com Fri Jun 20 20:16:57 2008 From: Gt6steve at aol.com (Gt6steve at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:16:57 EDT Subject: [Fot] Mitchell camber gauge Message-ID: Amici, Can you point me to instructions for using the Wayne Mitchell Camber gauge I just acquired? I'm looking at it, I know what it does and how to use it but I'm totally brain dead on it?? WTF? I am so involved in devolving the plant these days that my racing brain is put away somewhere... **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From Group44TR7 at aol.com Sat Jun 21 06:49:16 2008 From: Group44TR7 at aol.com (Group44TR7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:49:16 EDT Subject: [Fot] Canadian Triumph Championships Message-ID: Amici Does anyone have a compilation of championships that have been won by Triumphs in Canada? This poster implies that Triumph TR7 won a national championship in Canada. Triumph's TR8 won at least one other national championship there (Cam Champion). _http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ33024 4939299QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem_ (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330244939299Q QihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Those of you who saw Pete Wilson's TR8 at the 50th anniversary were actua lly looking at the Canadian GT1 Championship car of Cam Champion. Cary **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From macdonaldp at rogers.com Sat Jun 21 08:30:09 2008 From: macdonaldp at rogers.com (Paul MacDonald) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:30:09 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Canadian Championship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have a compilation, but that is me bidding on the poster... Paul MacDonald Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:49:16 EDT From: Group44TR7 at aol.com Subject: [Fot] Canadian Triumph Championships To: fot at autox.team.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Amici Does anyone have a compilation of championships that have been won by Triumphs in Canada? This poster implies that Triumph TR7 won a national championship in Canada. Triumph's TR8 won at least one other national championship there (Cam Champion). _http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330 24 4939299QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem_ (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRITISH-LEYLAND-TRIUMPH-TR7-POSTER-VINTAGE_W0QQitemZ330 244939299Q QihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Those of you who saw Pete Wilson's TR8 at the 50th anniversary were actua lly looking at the Canadian GT1 Championship car of Cam Champion. Cary *********************************** From trmarty at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 14:29:30 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:29:30 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spity Diff rear bushings Message-ID: Pulled the differential out of the Spitfire today to replace the mounting bushings. Crap, what a job. The only way I was able to get one out was to cut through the side of the sleeve. I put the replacement back in and did my best work throughly butchering the crap out of it. before I move on to the second one , whats the preferred method of replacing these buggers? I put the bushing in the freezer and heated the diff with a torch trying to gain a little room but it still pretty much laughed at me an my BFH. By the looks of the fresh paint on this differential possibly it was rebuilt in the somewhat recent past but the old, probably 40 year old bushing were left in. Now I understand why. Somebody give me some advice before the neighbors call the police about all the swearing coming from the garage. Thanks, Marty _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From jmwagner at greenheart.com Sat Jun 21 20:59:44 2008 From: jmwagner at greenheart.com (Justin Wagner) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:59:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] [Fwd: Justin: "Remembernig the Fallen"] Message-ID: <485DC020.8000006@greenheart.com> Not Triumph related.... Powerful video.... --Justin Remembering the Fallen http://www.militarytimes.com/hancock From trmarty at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 06:40:20 2008 From: trmarty at hotmail.com (marty sukey) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:40:20 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spitty Diff Bushings now in In-Reply-To: <000d01c8d3e1$c38a1d10$0302a8c0@newcomputer> References: <000d01c8d3e1$c38a1d10$0302a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: Thanks for all the replies. Second one went MUCH better. In case you decide to replace these and haven't done this before here is what ended up working. On the removal the trick is to cut through the side wall of the sleeve to allow it to collapse and then can be pushed out. I used a dremel to cut the sleeve but others suggested using a hack saw blade. Oh, you have to remove the rubber first to get to the sleeve. It was suggested to burn it out but mine was so deteriorated I was able to dig it out with a screwdriver. For the install I machined up a plug just slightly smaller than the OD of the new sleeve and relieved the face of the plug slightly to clear the inner sleeve of the new bushing. I then used a vice to press the new bushing in using this plug as a guide. The plug probably did not need to be made smaller than the OD of the sleeve but the original intent was to use it to push the old bushing out, that was before I fount out I needed to cut he wall of the old sleeve. Once cut I didn't need the plug to push it out. Now that new ones are in I wonder if in place of the stock style rubber lined bushings I could have machined up a set of delrin bushings with a steel sleeve in the center and used them instead. Marty _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From S.Janzen at comcast.net Sun Jun 22 11:31:13 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:31:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen FOT Shirts and Baseball Caps- time to order! Message-ID: <000e01c8d48d$c51516b0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> You might remember I took a poll on this subject a few weeks back. As a result, we're going to offer the three most popular choices - a long sleeve denim shirt with a Triumph shield/laurel/Kastner Cup logo embroidered on the left front Baseball cap (blue or khaki) with the same logo Printed tee shirt with a terrific all Triumph race graphic designed by Greg Petrolati on the back, and the FOT logo you are all familiar with and the words Kastner Cup 2008 below it, on the left front. Go to the link below and view "photo album" to see the embroidered logos, the shirt and cap and the tee shirt design. At this point, I need you to tell me how many of each of these you want and the size. Just send me an email. We need all orders by July 1. Ted Shumacher is graciously offering to handle credit card processing and will bring all the items to the Glen for pre-paid pick-up. If you do not plan to be at the Glen, shipping is extra. Once we have orders, Ted and I will figure out how to collect credit card info, checks, etc and get back to you once we have the orders. Long Sleeve button down denim shirts in blue or khaki, button down collar, breast pocket, embroidery above pocket. S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $30 +1 for every X above XL. An XL is a 17 -17 1/2 neck size, so these are good sized shirts Baseball caps - hgh quality Adams cap, one size fits all, khaki color, $16 Tee shirts, light gray background, S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $19, plus $1 for every X above XL http://www.freewebs.com/sjanzen/index.htm From henry at henryfrye.com Mon Jun 23 09:12:04 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:12:04 -0400 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. Our paddock was anchored at it's usual location inside turn one, and under our tents we had the cars of Keith Files, Tony Drews, Mark Wheatley and me. Friday's three sessions went off with one hitch, on the final session Keith's car dropped out with a seized engine. Looks like another victim of the oil pump drive shaft tang shearing. The plan was hatched to get the car back in form for the Glen in September. Saturday morning we had a qualifying session to determine grid position for the afternoon qualifying race. Tony qualified 10th, Mark 11th, and I was 13th. We were a few tenths apart. On the warm up lap the rain started. Kind of light at first, but by the time the green flag fell it was quite wet. I delighted to watch Mark work his racecraft and pick and wiggle his way to round turn one in second place! Tony was in the inside lane and was held up with nowhere to go. As we slid around with all the Minis and Mustangs and a Corvette and even a 1962 Galaxie 500 I got increasing uneasy, and on our second tear up the back straight a microburst of heavy rain hit. I had enough and came in, Mark finished 5th, while Tony worked his way up to 8th. On Sunday morning's race we saw Tony Drews run a 144.9, Mark Wheatley turn a 1:44.8, and I ran a 1:44.6. OK, in the column that really counts, Tony came in 6th overall, Mark finished 8th, and I came in 14th. I had a hoot running through traffic while our boys out front battled for bragging rights. Mike and Sandy Jackson pulled the Trailer of Templeton Formula Vees, and Mike piloted the Shadowfax while hired gun Dick Ryan ran the freshly restored Ringwraith. The Ringwraith looks great, congrats on a job well done, Mike! Bud Babcock was there in his gorgeous TR3, and Ivan Ivanyshyn piloted the ex-Dave Herd Spitfire. Matt Molson ran his TR6 as well. Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the highlight of my season. From tedtsimx at bright.net Mon Jun 23 09:46:28 2008 From: tedtsimx at bright.net (Ted Schumacher) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:46:28 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to reach Ed Barnard Message-ID: <485FC554.9020103@bright.net> Ed, please call me back.. Phone Ihave for you does not work. Sorry to bomb list with this. Thanks, Ted -- Ted Schumacher tedtsimx at bright.net http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com 108 S. Jefferson St. Pandora, Ohio, USA 45877 Fax: 419.384.3272 (24 Hrs.) Phone: 800.543.6648 (US & Canada) Tech/ Gen. Information/ Worldwide: 419.384.3022 From tony at tonydrews.com Mon Jun 23 20:26:32 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:26:32 -0500 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport In-Reply-To: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.loca l> References: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> Message-ID: <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> I've got to echo Henry's comments on this track and the hospitality. I drove the track back in 2002 and the memory faded. I remembered it being fun, but when I went out for the first session, on about lap 2 I was thinking "NOW I remember what I love about this track!". It's one of those tracks that uses the natural terrain to its advantage. There are a number of high speed sweepers where you get to test your bravery, some of them with blind entrances. I found myself hooting to myself inside my helmet on particularly good runs through turn 2. The format is great, 3 untimed practices on Friday to figure out the track (or re-learn it), a qualifying session Saturday, a race on Saturday and two races on Sunday. Prior race FINISHING ORDER (not lap time) sets position for next race, making that awesome pass in an earlier race worth something (good job, Mark!). We had about 60 cars in our group, so getting through traffic quickly was a significant part of the racecraft. Frickin awesome. No matter what your speed, you've got someone to race with. They did have 110 leaded at the track as well. While it's starting to get uncomfortably warm in the midwest, the weather there was low 70's. They did have a few showers roll through, but they quickly dissipated. I remember it doing that in 2002, and suspect that is the norm. Border crossings were non-events, other than there being a little bit of a wait to get to the head of the line at the border stations. For 2009, you will need a passport to get back into the US, though. $65 at the local post office and 3 to 4 weeks later I had mine. They even took the picture. They have plenty of workers, all enthusiastic, clapping and waving at the end of the sessions. It was one of those weekends that I didn't want to see end. If I can afford the time off and the tow next year, I'll certainly be back. It would be fun to see more of the FOT there, and I'm sure you wouldn't regret choosing to go. - Tony Drews At 10:12 AM 6/23/2008, Henry Frye wrote: >The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. > > >Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That >combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible >enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are >extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the >highlight of my season. >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as tony at tonydrews.com From lfritz82 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 21:10:34 2008 From: lfritz82 at hotmail.com (Lorne Fritz) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:10:34 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I have a customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to suggest upping the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put on headers, but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit.(any good ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've heard of some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit from someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. housings. Has anybody used this set up and how does it work? Thanks in advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca shback From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:14:14 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:14:14 -0700 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport In-Reply-To: <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> References: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD4060045@server.Triumph.local> <20080624022620.120F5187642@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <48D9ED79-A613-407F-BF25-9864D6CA1919@bnj.com> I have no idea how the memory of Mosport could fade. To drive fast there you have to grow a third testicle, though that's probably different for the ladies. After every session I sat in my car for a long time, just thinking. I''m not even certain what I was thinking about--but I know I didn't just jump out of the car and say "boy, that was fun" as I usually do. On Jun 23, 2008, at 7:26 PM, Tony Drews wrote: > I've got to echo Henry's comments on this track and the > hospitality. I drove the track back in 2002 and the memory faded. I > remembered it being fun, but when I went out for the first session, > on about lap 2 I was thinking "NOW I remember what I love about this > track!". It's one of those tracks that uses the natural terrain to > its advantage. There are a number of high speed sweepers where you > get to test your bravery, some of them with blind entrances. I found > myself hooting to myself inside my helmet on particularly good runs > through turn 2. The format is great, 3 untimed practices on Friday > to figure out the track (or re-learn it), a qualifying session > Saturday, a race on Saturday and two races on Sunday. Prior race > FINISHING ORDER (not lap time) sets position for next race, making > that awesome pass in an earlier race worth something (good job, > Mark!). We had about 60 cars in our group, so getting through > traffic quickly was a significant part of the racecraft. Frickin > awesome. No matter what your speed, you've got someone to race with. > > They did have 110 leaded at the track as well. > > While it's starting to get uncomfortably warm in the midwest, the > weather there was low 70's. They did have a few showers roll > through, but they quickly dissipated. I remember it doing that in > 2002, and suspect that is the norm. From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:27:25 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only route to more horsepower without increasing compression or displacement is flow. Changing the carb won't necessarily do that unless something else is done that turns the cab into a bottleneck. the easiest route that will probably deliver enough new grunt to be felt in the seat of the pants (ten percent) is a little cleanup to the head. Match the ports to the intake manifold, clean up the transitions. Stage two is a serious head porting job, bigger intake valves, and consider a carb change. Stage three it's cam and exhaust header. Once you've done all that if you still need more you're into compression and extreme mods and you probably don't want to go there. You can get some good horsepower by blueprinting the motor, but you'd probably increase compression slightly when you do that, and you'd probably do a cam as well. It's also pretty expensive. I tracked my hours on the motor I built for the All Aluminum tour, which was not a highly modified lump--it ran two years of racing without a murmur and probably would have run a third, but I had Tony Garmy freshen it up anyway. Just good parts, good machining and very clean and careful assembly. It was a little over 200 hours--$10,000 at fifty bucks an hour. Of course you could just fit a supercharger. There's some good kits now. I don't know if there's a TR6 one yet, but that would work well. On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Lorne Fritz wrote: > Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I > have a > customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to > suggest upping > the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put > on headers, > but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit. > (any good > ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've > heard of > some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit > from > someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. > housings. Has > anybody used this set up and how does it work? > Thanks in > advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:37:00 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:37:00 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F3A0D79-07D1-4EC1-8D69-09FA28C29DC5@bnj.com> Oh, and water injection works great with supercharged cars so you don't really have to go with higher octane. I don't know why that isn't used more. I suspect there will be interest in it again soon-- especially water/ethanol injection. On Jun 23, 2008, at 9:27 PM, Bill Babcock wrote: > The only route to more horsepower without increasing compression or > displacement is flow. Changing the carb won't necessarily do that > unless something else is done that turns the cab into a bottleneck. From GSFuqua1 at aol.com Mon Jun 23 23:10:11 2008 From: GSFuqua1 at aol.com (GSFuqua1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:10:11 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: Moss has a very nice Supercharger kit for the TR 6. Virtually all bolt on. THAT will give you a kick in the pants but you don't want to put that on a weak motor. Doesn't have to be a fresh rebuild but should be good and solid. The Throttle Body Kit is also excellent but as was pointed out if you put more in you need to handle it properly and then get it out. A good head job...Hey wait...back to the engine will clean things out nicely. Then you can go with the headers. No reason not to go with a decent street cam for a little punch as well. Once you have the horses you need to get them to the ground so make sure your clutch system and the rest of the drive train (U-joints, etc.) are up to the task. Also make sure you differential mounts are solid. Nothing quite as exciting as thinking you are going to lay down a little black only to have it go clunk. Just some thoughts for you to consider. I would not rule out Richard Goods Triple Strombergs with his cool air set up and the nice aluminum shroud. Works get on my car. Happy hunting and the check book lubed up REAL nice cause it ain't cheap. Cheers, Gary Fuqua Classic Sports Car Branson, MO Ps,,,If you decide to go the Supercharger route I have one for the late model TR 6 that I might be able to make you a deal on. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From mark at bradakis.com Mon Jun 23 23:42:22 2008 From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:42:22 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4860893E.4050401@bradakis.com> What year TR6 is this? If it has the wimpy 7.whatever compression ratio, going to 9 or 9.5 will be a big help without requiring frequent trips to specialty places for race gas. mjb. From BillDentin at aol.com Tue Jun 24 09:00:39 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:00:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: In a message dated 06/23/2008 11:14:43 PM Central Daylight Time, billbab at gmail.com writes: > I have no idea how the memory of Mosport could fade. To drive fast > there you have to grow a third testicle, though that's probably > different for the ladies. After every session I sat in my car for a > long time, just thinking. I''m not even certain what I was thinking > about--but I know I didn't just jump out of the car and say "boy, that > was fun" as I usually do. > Yeah...for ladies, don't they call them gonads? MOSPORT Turn TWO is arguably the toughest turn in Road Racing. Blind, double apex, down hill, off camber, etc. It sure gets my vote. I sure never got it right. Of course it is a left hander, I tend to make Tony Drews look slender, and I was in a right hand drive car. I thought I was going to roll over every lap. Kas made several suggestions as to what I was doing wrong, but either I didn't understand, or I was too worried about rolling over. But I sure want to go back some time and try to get it right. Having said that, our TRs sure like that up hill back straight coming out of the Stirling Moss corner. It suits that old tractor engine just fine. MOSPORT is a great track. Sadly, last week end's MOSPORT event saw a rare vintage racing fatality late Sunday morning, when Dino Crescentini's Wolf CanAm car had a suspected equipment failure on that up hill back straight. His car went airborne, came down on its top, and rolled more times than they could count. All racing, even vintage racing, is dangerous. It is important to think about that when worrying about picking up another 10th in a sport where LAST pays the same as FIRST. Bill Dentinger ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From kaskas at cox.net Tue Jun 24 09:14:22 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:14:22 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades References: Message-ID: I think you should have long talk about a short subject with your customer. Recognizing that compression is by far the easiest way to power increases as it starts with rev one and goes right on until you run out of rev bravery. My point is that the COST of doing something such as supercharging or adding fuel injection will cost probably a couple thousand dollars at a minimum. Figure hi octane gas will cost about 20 cents per gallon over regular. Unless you are driving this TR-6 on a long commute EVERYDAY it will take years of gas cost savings to ever make up the initial cost of the injection or supercharging. And, by the way you are not going to get away with regular fuel with a supercharger either. I designed and manufactured turbo kits for years in my private company ( Arkay Inc.) and even with PREMIUM gas we had to add water injection to every kit . You can mill the head enough to bring it to 9.5 compression, add a small street short overlap camshaft, headers and the S.U. carbs or a triple manifold from "GoodParts" and headers and you'll have really nice performing car on the road and reliable. After the head mill and valve grind and headers you can add the other parts as time passes and you have more funds. The compression will be felt when you leave the garage. Just as an added feature the increase in compression will IMPROVE the mileage. -------------- From: "Lorne Fritz" Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:10 PM To: Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades > Does anybody have any good ideas to up the horse powerof a TR6. I have a > customer who wants more power out of his street TR6. I hate to suggest > upping > the compression because of the gas available today. I want to put on > headers, > but the last set I got from the Roadster Factory didn't even fit.(any good > ones available?). I know the stock Strombergs have got to go. I've heard > of > some people using SUs from a Volvo. I heard of a fuel injection kit from > someone in the North East. It uses GM injectors in the Strom. housings. > Has > anybody used this set up and how does it work? Thanks in > advance. Any help is appreciated. Lorne Fritz > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 09:38:18 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:38:18 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. On Jun 24, 2008, at 8:14 AM, Kas Kastner wrote: > I think you should have long talk about a short subject with your > customer. > Recognizing that compression is by far the easiest way to power > increases as > it starts with rev one and goes right on until you run out of rev > bravery. > > My point is that the COST of doing something such as supercharging > or adding > fuel injection will cost probably a couple thousand dollars at a > minimum. > Figure hi octane gas will cost about 20 cents per gallon over regular. > Unless you are driving this TR-6 on a long commute EVERYDAY it will > take > years of gas cost savings to ever make up the initial cost of the > injection > or supercharging. And, by the way you are not going to get away with > regular > fuel with a supercharger either. I designed and manufactured turbo > kits for > years in my private company ( Arkay Inc.) and even with PREMIUM gas > we had > to add water injection to every kit . > > You can mill the head enough to bring it to 9.5 compression, add a > small > street short overlap camshaft, headers and the S.U. carbs or a triple > manifold from "GoodParts" and headers and you'll have really nice > performing > car on the road and reliable. After the head mill and valve grind and > headers you can add the other parts as time passes and you have more > funds. > The compression will be felt when you leave the garage. Just as an > added > feature the increase in compression will IMPROVE the mileage. From westerneagleracing at att.net Tue Jun 24 11:32:05 2008 From: westerneagleracing at att.net (westerneagleracing at att.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:32:05 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans Message-ID: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on Spitfires at Le Mans. Ron Jacobs Western Eagle Racing From hottr6 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 11:53:42 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:53:42 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Message-ID: I suggest you spend a bit more time with your customer. There are two important questions that need to be answered: 1) What does he/she intend to do with all that horsepower, and; 2) How much money does he/she want to spend (all the while ensuring a balance between safety, handling, braking, reliability, economy, time between rebuilds and hp)? It is amazing that once these questions have been *honestly* answered, the vast majority of TR6 drivers will prefer the Moss Motors bolt-on supercharger. Most TR6 drivers (actually, most drivers) are on some sort of "my thing is bigger than your thing" kick, and obsessed with having something that is dimensionally larger than their neighbor. You got 15" wheels? I got 17" wheels. 11" brakes? I got 13" brakes. 350 hp? I got 355 hp. Yeah, like any of that stuff makes a real difference. What these folk do not realize is that you can scare yourself silly, and have a ball doing it, with a vehicle that is completely stock. The number of times I have humiliated Corvette, or kit- Cobras and yes, Miatas with my old stock TR6 on road or autoX courses belies the fact that most drivers have no idea how to control what they already have. Of course, if they are good drivers, I'm the first with the white flag. I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly. If you want to find out what can be done to a TR6 motor that is still manageable and enjoyable on the road, have a look at: http://triumph.hottr6.com/TR6motor.html After reading that, I am sure your customer will very quickly decide upon a supercharger. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the im Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From fubog1 at aol.com Tue Jun 24 12:07:18 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:07:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> I completely agree. Glen "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". -----Original Message----- From: Shane Ingate To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com Cc: Friends of Triumph Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 23 21:02:43 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:02:43 +1100 Subject: [Fot] cooling Message-ID: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. From charly at mitchelplumbing.com Tue Jun 24 12:37:46 2008 From: charly at mitchelplumbing.com (Charly Mitchel) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:37:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs References: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <01ae01c8d629$65ec5750$0302a8c0@Charly> I agree totally also and have been told the early TR4 Z-S carbs flow the best of all including SU's. You know the ones with the funny choke. Charly Mitchel TR6 #44 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs >I completely agree. > Glen > > "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have > got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not > understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand > multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" > SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can > think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shane Ingate > To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com > Cc: Friends of Triumph > Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Tue Jun 24 12:40:04 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:40:04 -0500 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C368E3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> No, but in my old Datsun B210, I used to have to crank the heater all the way up in order to drive on a warm summer day without overheating. That worked just fine as long as you didn't mind arriving at your destination looking like you'd just run a 10K race. You're just talking about moving the position of the same system. Scott -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+scott.barr=mccarty-law.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+scott.barr=mccarty-law.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steven Preiss Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:03 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] cooling Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as scott.barr at mccarty-law.com From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 23 21:41:13 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:41:13 +1100 Subject: [Fot] cooling References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> <002c01c8d628$8983c7d0$0200a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: <003a01c8d5ac$26d7d7b0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Like using TR6 flat heater core as a supplementary radiator connected to the heater lines coming right off the head and water pump housing and mounted in the traditional oil cooler position down below the rad and in its own air stream. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig" To: "Steven Preiss" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] cooling > Need more input > You lost me > Craig > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Preiss" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:02 PM > Subject: [Fot] cooling > > > > Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler > > and > > connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 > > radiator? > > Steve P. > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as wensley_tr at comcast.net From kaskas at cox.net Tue Jun 24 12:54:44 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:54:44 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs References: <8CAA43C4618C19B-1980-16E9@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> <01ae01c8d629$65ec5750$0302a8c0@Charly> Message-ID: <311F55F02E804CE498CA6CBE418C8A87@RW> The problem I found was the occasional leak in a diaphragm that could throw you for a couple days until you finally find that little pin hole and of course the difficulty in finding optional needles. That is the reason I figured out away to use the S.U. needles and how to make a needle modifying tool. The floats also can be a problem and when you pull the float bowl you can have gasoline all over the engine side (read: headers) and that is okay when cold. You also need to align the float bowl vent so it does not flow over when hard cornering. Really a short list for a very effective carburetor until you get to the emission type carbs that had no adjustment for mixture and the needles were very difficult to deal with for racing. All easy things to fix though. Determination is the key. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Charly Mitchel" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:37 AM To: ; ; Cc: Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs > I agree totally also and have been told the early TR4 Z-S carbs flow the > best of all including SU's. You know the ones with the funny choke. > Charly Mitchel > TR6 #44 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades Strombergs > > >>I completely agree. >> Glen >> >> "I do not agree with your assessment that the "Strombergs have >> got to go". They have been badly maligned by folk who do not >> understand carburetors, and mauled by folk who do not understand >> multiple carburetion. Strombergs can flow as much air as 1.75" >> SUs, and are just as simple to set up. The only bad thing I can >> think of when talking Strombergs is that they are butt-ugly". >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Shane Ingate >> To: lfritz82 at hotmail.com >> Cc: Friends of Triumph >> Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 1:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Performance upgrades >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as charly at mitchelplumbing.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 13:23:20 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:23:20 -0700 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: <3766CA05-D82A-49CD-9CE6-F999800C11E3@bnj.com> Funny you should mention that. The Ambro 001 that I bought from Doug Karon has an auxiliary radiator that plumbs to the back of the block. At least I think that's what it's doing--it's a plumber's nightmare. Haven't had time to figure it all out since I'm trying hard to finish Peyote for the Northwest Historics. On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:02 PM, Steven Preiss wrote: > Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil > cooler and > connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 > radiator? > Steve P. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From trhouse at greenapple.com Tue Jun 24 13:23:40 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (trhouse at greenapple.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Howdy; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51075.24.123.61.161.1214335420.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> I have been out of touch with the world for a couple of months still planning to go to the glenn tom > Hi Tom, > > Just wanted to give you a quick shout to see how you and your projects are > doing. I'm planning a trip to Watkins Glen for the vintage festival in > Sept., as it is the 60th Anniversity of road racing at the Glen. My > association with the Glen goes back a long way because of my going first > in 1949, and taking me in 1950. Its always like going home again. Take > care and let me know things are going for you and Doretti. > > Don Robinson > donaldr68 at bellsouth.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Tue Jun 24 13:35:26 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (trhouse at greenapple.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51115.24.123.61.161.1214336126.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> I went out this morning to head to the shop and found that someone stole a 1968 AH Sprite from in front of my house. Car is Red with Black interior good solid driver. Had some minor rear end damage. The licence plate light was broken off when it was backed into which resulted in a couple of inch depression of the area below the boot lid. Car had Ohio Historical plates on it. Solid wheels with Small AH hub caps. The neighbor saw it drive away about 2:00 AM this morning, (He thought it was me) Tom Householder Lancaster, Ohio 614-332-6541 > Joe Curry wrote: > > ...if they really were interested in > "saving the planet" They would scrap that > old car instead of selling it. > > My understanding is that it is far better > economics and less taxing on natural resources > to keep the old klunker going. Most of the > pollution caused by a car during its lifetime > (cradle-to-grave) is during its manufacture > and disposal, not when it is used on the road. > > I heard on NPR just the other day that the resource > cost of producing a Toyota Prius is LESS than > building a Tahoe. What tipped the scales was the > manufacturing of the battery. The nickel is mined > in the US, processed in Poland, refined in Japan, > assembled into the battery in Canada, and then installed > into the car in Japan. The nickel travels around the > world 3 times. Don't even ask about the cost of > disposing of this toxic mess. Prius owners are in > for a real shock come time to replace the batteries. > > Shane Ingate, musing on a slow Friday, in NM > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. > http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_s > kydrive_062008 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as trhouse at greenapple.com From vinttr4 at geneseo.net Tue Jun 24 14:04:27 2008 From: vinttr4 at geneseo.net (Jack W. Drews) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:04:27 -0500 Subject: [Fot] TR6 performance upgrades Message-ID: <200806242004.m5OK4T28410632@ns3.geneseo.net> Most of these cars are driven around in civilized areas and don't see top speed. It could be argued that the performance factor that gives a driver the most fun is better acceleration. If you buy that, then a lighter flywheel gives more bang for the buck than any other mod. If you look at chassis dyno numbers before and after the normal mods for the first 20% power increase, and if you look at the real increase at speeds at which these cars are normally driven - namely, below 3500 rpm, you realize that the increase in car performance from our most popular mods increase the hp and torque a rather small amount at these rpms. A lighter flywheel, though, will be felt immediately. Likewise, changing from a 3.7 diff to a 4.1 will be felt immediately. uncle jack From tr4racing at googlemail.com Tue Jun 24 14:13:44 2008 From: tr4racing at googlemail.com (MadMarx) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:13:44 +0200 Subject: [Fot] cooling In-Reply-To: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> References: <002301c8d5a6$c608c4d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: I still have a heater implanted and use it as an emergency cooler or at cold days for keeping me cozy and warm. Cheers Chris -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- Von: fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+tr4racing=googlemail.com at autox.team.net] Im Auftrag von Steven Preiss Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. Juni 2008 05:03 An: fot at autox.team.net Betreff: [Fot] cooling Anyone tried using a TR6 heater core mounted down low like an oil cooler and connected to the heater lines to augment cooling capacity of the TR3/4 radiator? Steve P. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tr4racing at googlemail.com From billsohl at optonline.net Tue Jun 24 16:27:57 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:27:57 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans In-Reply-To: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> References: <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Message-ID: <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> Just curious, who authored the article? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans > Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on > Spitfires at Le Mans. > Ron Jacobs > Western Eagle Racing > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From westerneagleracing at att.net Tue Jun 24 16:37:51 2008 From: westerneagleracing at att.net (westerneagleracing at att.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:37:51 +0000 Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans In-Reply-To: <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> <062420081732.18850.48612F94000F3CF0000049A222228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> <9994CA75DBEE42C887F3D85C80CFBC89@SohlPC> Message-ID: <062420082237.8261.4861773F000C09CE0000204522230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF990E04D2069D@att.net> Bill: Jim Donnelly with David Hobbs. Pictures from the collection of David Hobbs and Mike Cook -------------- Original message from Bill Sohl : -------------- > Just curious, who authored the article? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:32 PM > Subject: [Fot] Spits at Le Mans > > > > Just got my latest Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine. Big article on > > Spitfires at Le Mans. > > Ron Jacobs > > Western Eagle Racing > > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > Fot mailing list > > Fot at autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From spreiss at verizon.net Tue Jun 24 01:34:39 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:34:39 +1100 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <008301c8d5cc$c2c56460$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> My TR3 w/ TR4 engine with 145-150 ft lbs of cylinder compression and H6 SUs with SM needles gets really poor gas milage. I have never gotten much more than 15-16 mpg on a tank of Sunoco 93. Granted I do drive it with elan most of the time, and have never driven long enough at cruising speed to find out what the consumption would be under those conditions. Recently I have gotten the engine to what seems to be very good state of tune. It has great pull below 3500 and willingly goes on up to 5k, but with some loss of pull above 4500. Plugs look clean and mixture adjusted as lean as can be for a smooth idle. New points and did a valve adjustment .010 all accross. Any insights? I even have and use an O.D unit. Tires are 165R15 with 26 LBS pressure. steve P. From spreiss at verizon.net Tue Jun 24 03:53:32 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:53:32 +1100 Subject: [Fot] rear axle Message-ID: <000a01c8d5e0$2a2d1f90$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Anybody ever tried using an MGB diff/rear axle on a TR3? Steve P. Full of questions today From S.Janzen at comcast.net Tue Jun 24 19:41:29 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:41:29 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Message-ID: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree it's expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs and artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't afford to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 estimated, the cost can come down. From billbab at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 20:07:13 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:07:13 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <571D6987-34B8-4703-8E07-612D7050A60A@bnj.com> Sure, I'll take two--XXL On Jun 24, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't > disagree it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing > costs and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we > can't afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From lfritz82 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:31:46 2008 From: lfritz82 at hotmail.com (Lorne Fritz) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:31:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 Performance Message-ID: Thanks everyone. Some good ideas. Lorne _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashbac k From john at quantumechanics.com Sun Jun 15 06:41:20 2008 From: john at quantumechanics.com (Quantum) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:41:20 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: <4A96DC2C9A7B4F5D9F43C6F436E60773@desktop1> Jack/Clark - Hi again! I am sorry you are having trouble reaching me, but I now get between 50 and 80 phone calls and 20 to 40 emails each day! It is getting hard to do work answering all the emails and phone calls. I have also had problems getting correct top hat bushes. Some are incorrect depth and will not clearance on the mainshaft gears when stacked, some have bad O/D's and some bad I/D's. I have ordered from Moss and Victoria and I even tried ordering them from Rimmer and got the same junk. I think there is only one supplier and he has no quality control process, so it does not matter who you buy it from, you are going to get some bad ones. I have complained numerous times to these guys. All they do is put a temporary 'not available' on the part until they get in new stock, then start selling again. I think the supplier takes the defective ones back from one supplier and just reships them to another supplier! I have been honing out the bad I/D ones to make them fit. The bad O/D's and incorrect depth I have been sending back for replacements. I think I will look into making them myself through a local machine shop. Can you guys find someone to make them? Thanks! John Quantum Mechanics Ltd. 505 Wheeler Rd. Monroe, Ct. 06468 Phone 203-459-9612 Fax - 203-261-8497 www.quantumechanics.com From tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 15 13:05:01 2008 From: tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net (Tony Crawford) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:05:01 -0500 Subject: [Fot] ROLL BAR for 1961 Triumph TR3A Message-ID: Kas Kastner suggested you may be able to help me. I'm trying to find a roll bar for my 1961 TR3A that would be suitable for racing. Do you know where I could purchase one? Many thanks in advance. Cheers Tony --- Dr Tony Crawford Email: tonybcrawford at bellsouth.net Phone: +1 256-512-5512 +1 256-479-9124 (Cell) From tlizzard at msn.com Wed Jun 25 05:32:59 2008 From: tlizzard at msn.com (Terry Stetler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:32:59 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <008301c8d5cc$c2c56460$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> Message-ID: My TR3 is similar, except I am running Weber 40 DCOE carbs and headers, and I converted to an electronic igniton from points using a recurved stock distributor. 3.70diff with OD. Same tire size at 30psi. I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the highway at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the less than economical right foot, at least in my case. Terry Stetler ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Preiss To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:34 AM Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. My TR3 w/ TR4 engine with 145-150 ft lbs of cylinder compression and H6 SUs with SM needles gets really poor gas milage. I have never gotten much more than 15-16 mpg on a tank of Sunoco 93. Granted I do drive it with elan most of the time, and have never driven long enough at cruising speed to find out what the consumption would be under those conditions. Recently I have gotten the engine to what seems to be very good state of tune. It has great pull below 3500 and willingly goes on up to 5k, but with some loss of pull above 4500. Plugs look clean and mixture adjusted as lean as can be for a smooth idle. New points and did a valve adjustment .010 all accross. Any insights? I even have and use an O.D unit. Tires are 165R15 with 26 LBS pressure. steve P. _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as tlizzard at msn.com From emanteno at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 06:17:11 2008 From: emanteno at comcast.net (emanteno at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:17:11 +0000 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Terry Stetler" >> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the highway > at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. > > All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the less > than economical right foot, at least in my case. FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the top down. Irv Korey From ejmajor250 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 07:40:17 2008 From: ejmajor250 at comcast.net (Ed Major) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:40:17 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. Ed Major '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Terry Stetler" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Terry Stetler" > >>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>> highway >> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >> >> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the >> less >> than economical right foot, at least in my case. > > FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the > top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top > down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a > difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the > top down. > > Irv Korey > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as ejmajor250 at comcast.net From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:09:58 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:09:58 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Message-ID: <8DABE6E6-8EBB-4D94-B1F7-615A95CC069C@bnj.com> This is all worthwhile to hear. I have been considering getting rid of my Ferrari and building a good TR3 as a daily driver from all the bits I have downstairs (at least enough to build two cars). My Ferrari gets 18 in the city and 25 on the highway. I guess I'll keep it. PS. Diane says I was nuts anyway, and if I sold it she'd buy it. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. From fogbro1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 08:16:40 2008 From: fogbro1 at comcast.net (Ed Woods) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:16:40 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Sell Ferrari References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net><001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> <8DABE6E6-8EBB-4D94-B1F7-615A95CC069C@bnj.com> Message-ID: <002d01c8d6ce$1896eb50$6500a8c0@Edscomputer> I'd rather have the TR3 even if the Ferrari gets better gas mileage! Ed Woods From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:29:08 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:29:08 -0400 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: John Esposito wrote: > I think the supplier takes the defective ones back from one supplier > and just reships them to another supplier! In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost more than the British sensors. Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ The im Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst From hottr6 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:33:07 2008 From: hottr6 at hotmail.com (Shane Ingate) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:33:07 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way to 6200 rpm. =80 Shane Ingate in NM _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca shback From BillDentin at aol.com Wed Jun 25 08:45:27 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:45:27 EDT Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing Message-ID: In a message dated 06/25/2008 9:29:38 AM Central Daylight Time, hottr6 at hotmail.com writes: > In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our > manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US > cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit > sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. > This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer > what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, > I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. > > FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost > more than the British sensors. > So! Let me get this straight. Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good. That answers a lot of questions. Bill (Damdinger) PS...Many, many years ago I used to sublet grading work to a guy, who used a small Deere dozer with a six way blade. He was very, very good at what he did. He had that saying, "Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good" painted across the hood. This was an earthy, blue collar, one man operation, making a pretty nice marketing statement on his one piece of equipment for the early 1960s. Another one that caught my fancy during the same period was a local waste hauler, whose trucks read, "Satisfaction guaranteed, or double your rubbish back!" ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:47:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:47:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> Message-ID: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> I bet the gas mileage could be substantially improved by tuning the carbs. Most older cars I have worked on run amazingly rich. When I show my plugs to other mechanics they generally freak out a little. Every car wrench wants to see some brown, or at least tan. The only place I want to see that is a little in the base circle of the insulator. Sure, that's a holdover from racing motorcycles but these water cooled engines should be even more forgiving. If you showed plugs with tan on the nose to Bobby whatsisname (the guy from Champion) he'd say "you're safe" which meant "you have no idea what you're doing and I won't help you". There's a lot of horsepower and some mileage between slightly rich and just right. I suspect these cars were deliberately set rich to cover a bunch of owner maintenance ills and make them run better when they were cold. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. From spitlist at cox.net Wed Jun 25 09:01:28 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:01:28 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: Message-ID: <002701c8d6d4$58c86cc0$2d02a8c0@Belkin> I have always suspected that my lousy gas mileage was directly related to my driving habits. There seems to be something about getting behind the wheel of a Triumph that increases the testosterone level in males of the human species. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Ingate" To: Cc: "Friends of Triumph" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > Ed Major wrote: > > > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing a > > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! > Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way > to 6200 rpm. > > =80 > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:53:56 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:53:56 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> <001a01c8d6c9$02204920$6501a8c0@LoriPC> <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> Message-ID: >>>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>>> is the less than economical right foot, at least in my case. >>> >>> One last thing. Every time you plant your right foot and drive your car with spirit as God and Ferguson intended it probably costs you ten cents. If gas was ten bucks a gallon it might be twenty cents. What a bargain! From tr3a58 at verizon.net Wed Jun 25 08:59:54 2008 From: tr3a58 at verizon.net (tr3a58 at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:59:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. Message-ID: <4928227.1677051214405998432.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> When I drive my TR6 or 35 Ford, I don't worry about mileage. Only when I drive my Diesel truck do I worry. 10 MPG pulling the race trailer... Dean T. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Joe Curry wrote: > I have always suspected that my lousy gas mileage was directly related > to my driving habits.B There seems to be something about getting behind the wheel of a Triumph that increases the testosterone level in males of the human species. Joe C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Ingate" B > To: B > Cc: "Friends of Triumph" B > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > Ed Major wrote: > >> My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after installing >> a >> Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Gee, when I added a Pertronix to my stock TR6, my mileage got worse! > Probably because the Pertronix allowed the engine to rev all the way > to 6200 rpm. > > =80 > > Shane Ingate in NM > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Introducing Live Search cashback .B It's search that pays you back! > http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchca B > shback > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html B > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net B > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > B > > You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net B > Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net B http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot B You are subscribed as tr3a58 at verizon.net B From fubog1 at aol.com Wed Jun 25 09:21:24 2008 From: fubog1 at aol.com (fubog1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:21:24 -0400 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. In-Reply-To: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> References: <26D2A1ED-DF28-4257-AF82-D827C2D8578B@bnj.com> Message-ID: <8CAA4EE439E1E6F-D9C-352B@FWM-M40.sysops.aol.com> One of the questions that I ask my service customers is "how is the cold-start? Answer, more times than not... "oh it starts up just fine, I don't even have to use the choke". Most street cars are WAY too rich, either wear or incorrect settings. Many are rich to the point of suffering top ring "washdown", especially the later cars with auto chokes. Yes a simple plug check will tell a lot of info. Glen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Babcock To: Ed Major Cc: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:47 am Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. I bet the gas mileage could be substantially improved by tuning the carbs. Most older cars I have worked on run amazingly rich. When I show my plugs to other mechanics they generally freak out a little. Every car wrench wants to see some brown, or at least tan. The only place I want to see that is a little in the base circle of the insulator. Sure, that's a holdover from racing motorcycles but these water cooled engines should be even more forgiving. If you showed plugs with tan on the nose to Bobby whatsisname (the guy from Champion) he'd say "you're safe" which meant "you have no idea what you're doing and I won't help you". There's a lot of horsepower and some mileage between slightly rich and just right. I suspect these cars were deliberately set rich to cover a bunch of owner maintenance ills and make them run better when they were cold. On Jun 25, 2008, at 6:40 AM, Ed Major wrote: > My TR3A jumped 4 to 5 (from 21 to 26, open road) mpg after > installing a > Pertronix and a dizzy clean up. > > Ed Major > '58 TR3A, '68 TR250 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Terry Stetler" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > > >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Terry Stetler" >> >>>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>>> highway >>> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >>> >>> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit >>> is the >>> less >>> than economical right foot, at least in my case. >> >> FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage >> with the >> top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with >> the top >> down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics >> makes a >> difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive >> with the >> top down. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as fubog1 at aol.com From greenman62 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 09:40:51 2008 From: greenman62 at hotmail.com (greenman62 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:40:51 +0000 Subject: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I worked for an AV company an number of years ago... the typesetters had a sign in their office It said "Try as we will, we just can't shine shit..." Greenman62 Greg Petrolati Champaign, Illinois That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory... > From: BillDentin at aol.com > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:45:27 -0400 > To: hottr6 at hotmail.com; john at quantumechanics.com > CC: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 top hat bushing > > In a message dated 06/25/2008 9:29:38 AM Central Daylight Time, > hottr6 at hotmail.com writes: > > > > In my line of work using advanced scientific sensors, one of our > > manufacturers is British (the others are Swiss and Canadian - the US > > cannot build this stuff, but that is another thread). The Brit > > sensors has worse than 60% failure rate and I return all the rejects. > > This stuff cannot be "repaired" or "improved". I ask the manufacturer > > what they do with all my rejects, and though they were mum on the subject, > > I just know that the rejects are shipped to less discriminating customers. > > > > FWIW, the Swiss and Canadian sensors always meet specifications, but cost > > more than the British sensors. > > > > So! Let me get this straight. Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't > good. That answers a lot of questions. > > Bill (Damdinger) > > PS...Many, many years ago I used to sublet grading work to a guy, who used a > small Deere dozer with a six way blade. He was very, very good at what he > did. He had that saying, "Good Work ain't cheap, & Cheap Work ain't good" > painted across the hood. This was an earthy, blue collar, one man operation, making > a pretty nice marketing statement on his one piece of equipment for the early > 1960s. Another one that caught my fancy during the same period was a local > waste hauler, whose trucks read, "Satisfaction guaranteed, or double your > rubbish back!" > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as greenman62 at hotmail.com From simon at telephonestogo.ca Wed Jun 25 09:41:36 2008 From: simon at telephonestogo.ca (Simon Rasmussen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:41:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mosport weekend Message-ID: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> I was out on Saturday with my wife and had a very pleasant chat with Tony Drews, also spoke to Matt Molson and some ex Triumph drivers who now are cultivating German accents. We enjoyed watching a huge field splashing around in the rain, Minis coming out on top but TRs well represented. I was wearing a T shirt with a picture of Gilles Villeneuve which I have had for about 30 years and wear only on special occaisions. Looking at the Wolf CanAm car driven once by Villeneuve I spoke for a while to Dino (he noticed the shirt) and had my picture taken kneeling by the car. Rather horrifying to hear of his fatal crash the next day. I offer my condolences to his family and friends. Simon Rasmussen. From billbab at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 10:57:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:57:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mosport weekend In-Reply-To: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> References: <013401c8d6d9$f44a81b0$3464a8c0@SIMON> Message-ID: Very sad indeed, he was a very good driver and a nice guy. I saw him drive several times, and I chatted with him at Mosport last year. I'd say something trite, like at least he was doing something he loved, but it was way too soon. I'd say to everyone "be careful" but it really doesn't make sense. Tracks like Mosport and Watkins Glen are inherently more dangerous than many of our home tracks--they're faster, they have challenging corners, and they slap you across the face and call you sissy if you aren't driving them hard enough. There's really no way to go 8/10's, it's more like 5/10's or all out. I love those tracks, but they can bite. We should all remember that as we converge on Watkins Glen. Make sure your car is up to snuff. Make sure your safety gear is safe. Take time to come up to speed. Drive at the level you're comfortable with, not the level you get sucked into. I'm going to try to remember all that myself. Even with those precautions, there's no guarantees. When we step on a race track we need to recognize that. On Jun 25, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Simon Rasmussen wrote: > I was out on Saturday with my wife and had a very pleasant chat with > Tony > Drews, also spoke to Matt Molson and some ex Triumph drivers who now > are > cultivating German accents. We enjoyed watching a huge field > splashing around > in the rain, Minis coming out on top but TRs well represented. > > I was wearing a T shirt with a picture of Gilles Villeneuve which I > have had > for about 30 years and wear only on special occaisions. Looking at > the Wolf > CanAm car driven once by Villeneuve I spoke for a while to Dino (he > noticed > the shirt) and had my picture taken kneeling by the car. Rather > horrifying to > hear of his fatal crash the next day. > I offer my condolences to his family and friends. > Simon Rasmussen. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From kaskas at cox.net Wed Jun 25 14:06:04 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:06:04 -0700 Subject: [Fot] gas milage, etc. References: <062520081217.28761.486237470005D15C000070592200735446970A9D010507@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yes indeed the top up makes a huge difference. When were testing the stock TR-250 at Daytona the top up made about a 3 mph improvement. -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:17 AM To: "Terry Stetler" ; Subject: Re: [Fot] gas milage, etc. > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Terry Stetler" > >>> I get 18mpg in my normal around town and short trip driving. On the >>> highway >> at a steady 70 mph with OD engaged it will get about 24mpg. >> >> All in all pretty poor milege really. I suspect the major culprit is the >> less >> than economical right foot, at least in my case. > > FWIW, on a trip to a VTR Convention one year, I checked mileage with the > top up and the top down on my TR6. On that trip, I got 23 mpg with the top > down, and 27 with it up. Even on our brick-like cars, aerodynamics makes a > difference. of course, I'd rather get crappier mileage and drive with the > top down. > > Irv Korey > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From N197TR4 at cs.com Wed Jun 25 16:38:36 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:38:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] VARAC Vintage Festival at Mosport Message-ID: <4FEF7BAC.4A6B9A26.00159EE9@cs.com> Cid Lessard was also there with his great looking and well driven Spitfire. Folks were asking if Russ would be back. Outside of the obvious it was a great weekend. Joe Alexander >The FOT TR4's put on a great show at the Festival this year. > >Our paddock was anchored at it's usual location inside turn one, and >under our tents we had the cars of Keith Files, Tony Drews, Mark >Wheatley and me. Friday's three sessions went off with one hitch, on the >final session Keith's car dropped out with a seized engine. Looks like >another victim of the oil pump drive shaft tang shearing. The plan was >hatched to get the car back in form for the Glen in September. > >Saturday morning we had a qualifying session to determine grid position >for the afternoon qualifying race. Tony qualified 10th, Mark 11th, and I >was 13th. We were a few tenths apart. On the warm up lap the rain >started. Kind of light at first, but by the time the green flag fell it >was quite wet. I delighted to watch Mark work his racecraft and pick and >wiggle his way to round turn one in second place! Tony was in the inside >lane and was held up with nowhere to go. As we slid around with all the >Minis and Mustangs and a Corvette and even a 1962 Galaxie 500 I got >increasing uneasy, and on our second tear up the back straight a >microburst of heavy rain hit. I had enough and came in, Mark finished >5th, while Tony worked his way up to 8th. > >On Sunday morning's race we saw Tony Drews run a 144.9, Mark Wheatley >turn a 1:44.8, and I ran a 1:44.6. OK, in the column that really counts, >Tony came in 6th overall, Mark finished 8th, and I came in 14th. I had >a hoot running through traffic while our boys out front battled for >bragging rights. > >Mike and Sandy Jackson pulled the Trailer of Templeton Formula Vees, and >Mike piloted the Shadowfax while hired gun Dick Ryan ran the freshly >restored Ringwraith. The Ringwraith looks great, congrats on a job well >done, Mike! > >Bud Babcock was there in his gorgeous TR3, and Ivan Ivanyshyn piloted >the ex-Dave Herd Spitfire. Matt Molson ran his TR6 as well. > >Mosport continues to be a drivers track, my personal favorite. That >combined with the unparalleled hospitality of VARAC, the incredible >enthusiasm of the corner workers, and in general the VARAC racers are >extremely competitive and clean, this event continues to be the >highlight of my season. >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as n197tr4 at cs.com From mini at wi.rr.com Wed Jun 25 20:57:16 2008 From: mini at wi.rr.com (Richard Gehweiler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:57:16 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? Richard Gehweiler mini at wi.rr.com 1.262.894.5460 From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 22:23:50 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:23:50 -0700 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 Message-ID: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), headers (homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From rocky at spitfire4.com Thu Jun 26 00:02:17 2008 From: rocky at spitfire4.com (Rocky Entriken) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:02:17 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring References: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> Message-ID: <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Or early ones? Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gehweiler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? > > > > Richard Gehweiler > > mini at wi.rr.com > > 1.262.894.5460 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com From goodparts at verizon.net Thu Jun 26 04:11:51 2008 From: goodparts at verizon.net (Richard Good) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:11:51 -0400 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 In-Reply-To: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> References: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <48636B67.9020707@verizon.net> Jim, The front vac unit advances the timing with vacuum and the rear one retards. My preference is to connect the front unit directly to manifold vacuum at the banjo fitting on top of the manifold. This gives it full advance at idle and light throttle and as the engine load increases, the vacuum drops and the timing retards to keep it from pinging. Set the timing just short of pinging at any any load. The throttle response should be very snappy. The only down side is a tendency to run on when you shut it down. The unused vac unit may be left open but obviously you need to plug any unused vac ports on the carb. Richard Good Good Parts jim hearn wrote: >I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was >previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only >mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), headers >(homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only >have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum >unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another >way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks, Jim From robertten1 at aol.com Thu Jun 26 09:20:18 2008 From: robertten1 at aol.com (robertten1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:20:18 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring In-Reply-To: <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> References: <001c01c8d738$5af9f450$6400a8c0@home> <001c01c8d752$30c36120$6601a8c0@S1099895562> Message-ID: <8CAA5B746C88AF9-3B0-18F@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. My 2 cents, Bob T '64 Spit GT autocrosser -----Original Message----- From: Rocky Entriken To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Or early ones? Rocky Entriken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gehweiler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? > > > > Richard Gehweiler > > mini at wi.rr.com > > 1.262.894.5460 > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com From colordog.1 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 26 12:07:09 2008 From: colordog.1 at earthlink.net (colordog.1 at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:07:09 +0000 Subject: [Fot] TR3 oil cooler hoses?? Message-ID: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Is it possible to install the oil cooler lines to the filter adaptor plate with the motor in the car? It looks like there isn't room to get a wrench onto the front fitting. If so it's a 1/4 turn at a time situation (with oily hands!). Steve Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 12:36:19 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:36:19 -0700 Subject: [Fot] TR3 oil cooler hoses?? In-Reply-To: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1970034958-1214503701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-929205777-@bxe005.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8171AA7B-D38C-4665-8E77-F1477138CAE0@bnj.com> Absolutely. It's no fun, but you can do it. You might be able to put them on the plate before you install it. Depends on your plate. No dice with mine. On Jun 26, 2008, at 11:07 AM, colordog.1 at earthlink.net wrote: > Is it possible to install the oil cooler lines to the filter adaptor > plate with the motor in the car? > It looks like there isn't room to get a wrench onto the front > fitting. If so it's a 1/4 turn at a time situation (with oily > hands!). > > Steve > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jsiam1 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 26 18:16:16 2008 From: jsiam1 at earthlink.net (Joseph Siam) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:16:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <13083349.1214525776997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi All I've got two I cant use. Both brand new never installed I would like to sell them. thanks Joe 818 350 6222 -----Original Message----- >From: robertten1 at aol.com >Sent: Jun 26, 2008 8:20 AM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > >Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. >Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. > >My 2 cents, >Bob T >'64 Spit GT autocrosser > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rocky Entriken >To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > > >Or early ones? > >Rocky Entriken > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Gehweiler" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM >Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > >> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? >> >> >> >> Richard Gehweiler >> >> mini at wi.rr.com >> >> 1.262.894.5460 >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as jsiam1 at earthlink.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 26 20:28:01 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:28:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and the silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be candid, most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a dinner and a drink. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Janzen" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree > it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs > and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't > afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net From billsohl at optonline.net Thu Jun 26 20:43:49 2008 From: billsohl at optonline.net (Bill Sohl) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:43:49 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen - KOA Campground In-Reply-To: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> Linda and I will be staying at the Watkins Glen KOA campground again fior this years Vintage Event. We plan to arrive at the campground on Thurday. The KOA is only a couple of miles from the track entrance..it's actually so close you can hear the cars practicing. Anyone else from FOT staying there? Cheers, Bill & Linda Sohl 1961 TR-3A (We are signed up for the Tour de Marque...any other FOTers signed up?) From dave at microworks.net Thu Jun 26 21:06:51 2008 From: dave at microworks.net (David W. Riddle) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:06:51 -0700 Subject: [Fot] PIR threatened by fire Message-ID: <20080627030714.JAEB11775.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> Phoenix International Raceway was threatened by a 2000 acre wildfire. Check out photo #5 (of 11) to see how close the fire is to the track. The photo is looking back through NASCAR Turn 3 to the back straight. http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/slideshowfull/1238/5 More video and photos. http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/2008/06/26/20080626abrk-brushfire0625-ON.html Photo 12 shows the entire raceway and the smoke next to it. From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 21:11:27 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:11:27 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <690DFCE6-55EA-4D6D-BE3E-589BBD441617@bnj.com> Or even the insignificant ones. On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:28 PM, Bill Sohl wrote: > Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and > the > silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be > candid, > most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a > dinner > and a drink. > > Cheers, > Bill Sohl > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Janzen" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM > Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > > >> Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did >> get a >> negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't >> disagree >> it's >> expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing >> costs >> and >> artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. >> Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't >> afford >> to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 >> estimated, >> the cost can come down. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From billbab at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 21:13:01 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:13:01 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen - KOA Campground In-Reply-To: <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> <15ED70800BF24A4C998678806A9E7ED9@SohlPC> Message-ID: If I were bringing Nero I'd be staying at the track, but Tony Garmey is bringing Peyote along with a bunch of other Northwest cars. So we're staying in a Hampton Inn at Painted somethingorother. On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Bill Sohl wrote: > Linda and I will be staying at the Watkins Glen KOA campground again > fior > this years Vintage Event. > We plan to arrive at the campground on Thurday. > > The KOA is only a couple of miles from the track entrance..it's > actually so > close you can hear the cars practicing. > > Anyone else from FOT staying there? > > Cheers, > Bill & Linda Sohl > 1961 TR-3A (We are signed up for the Tour de Marque...any other FOTers > signed up?) > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From N197TR4 at cs.com Fri Jun 27 09:07:39 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:07:39 EDT Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Message-ID: Scott, Thanks for all of your work. Greg Petrolati called recently and he seemed very pleased with his artwork. I am sure we all will be pleased. I need to place an order myself and will do so shortly. If you are marginal on numbers, let me know, and perhaps there is a way to kick them up where they need to be. This Friends of Triumph event is turning out to be quite a Triumph Reunion and is likely not to be duplicated. Joe A > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > From trhouse at greenapple.com Fri Jun 27 09:25:11 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:25:11 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel exhaust. there is reportedly a British car auction in the Granville Ohio area in the next couple of weeks anyone got any info on it or nelson reidels Phone number. Thanks tom From BillDentin at aol.com Fri Jun 27 09:31:05 2008 From: BillDentin at aol.com (BillDentin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:31:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: In a message dated 06/27/2008 10:26:07 AM Central Daylight Time, trhouse at greenapple.com writes: > I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM > Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would > car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light > was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til > light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire > wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and > the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. > the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way > after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some > fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at > the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as > a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel > exhaust. > Tom... You're kidding, right? Someone stole that? What, was it full of gas? Love, Bill (Damdinger) ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From spitfiresuz at 141.com Fri Jun 27 09:37:06 2008 From: spitfiresuz at 141.com (Susan Kahler) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:37:06 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48650922.7030603@141.com> Hi Tom! I am so sorry to hear about your car! That is one bold person, to just take it off from in front of your house. I searched on line and found these auctions: http://www.hemmings.com/calendar/?category_id=1&location= There is a listing for the Mid-Ohio auction in July, and several others that may be worth checking. I also found this auction: http://columbus.craigslist.org/eve/721772383.html You should probably be checking Craigslist and eBay for parts from your car (crazedlist.com is a Craigslist aggregator--it will let you search different areas at the same time). It is very possible they broke it down and are selling parts. More likely it is on its way overseas. :( Good luck! I hope you are able to find it in unmolested condition! Susan :) Tom Householder wrote: > I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM > Tuesday Morning . From sbracing at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 27 10:54:29 2008 From: sbracing at sbcglobal.net (Steven Benford Jr) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tom, I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. I really hope this person is caught! Tom Householder wrote: I had an 1968 Austin Healey Sprite stolen from My driveway at @ 2:00 AM Tuesday Morning . Those going to mid Ohio keep any eye out if you would car is red with Black interior , some damage where the licence plate light was backed into and dented the area below the boot lid. the drivers side til light was glued back together but falling apart again. Hub Caps non wire wheel car . Good driver with crazed paint . the carpet below the seats and the rear shelf were red in contrast to the rest of the carpet being black. the floor mat was missing on the pasengers side. ( Left it on the drive way after the was the night before it was stolen ) . Alloy valve cover and some fancy air cleaners under hood . the breater for the sump was disconnected at the front of the engine abobe the carbs. BRG original paint history noted as a decal was missing on the radiator support underhood. New stainless steel exhaust. there is reportedly a British car auction in the Granville Ohio area in the next couple of weeks anyone got any info on it or nelson reidels Phone number. Thanks tom Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as sbracing at sbcglobal.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Fri Jun 27 11:08:56 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:08:56 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The engine was performanced out in the past few years . Had an alloy valvecover etc. Photos are available if interested . tom on 6/27/08 12:54 PM, Steven Benford Jr at sbracing at sbcglobal.net wrote: Tom, I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. From REK46 at aol.com Fri Jun 27 11:18:48 2008 From: REK46 at aol.com (REK46 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:18:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) Message-ID: I sent a copy to Scott Harper at Team Triumph too....he gets a lot of parts and car strips calls, in Warren,Ohio ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From jsiam1 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 27 12:05:00 2008 From: jsiam1 at earthlink.net (Joseph Siam) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:05:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring Message-ID: <28893705.1214589900847.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi All I have two springs I can't use both are new never installed 250# I paid $320 each will sell for $ 270 + shipping. Thanks Joe -----Original Message----- >From: robertten1 at aol.com >Sent: Jun 26, 2008 8:20 AM >To: fot at autox.team.net >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > >Try web search for " Flex a Form" ( I believe that is?the name).? I recently installed one on my autocrosser and so far I am pleased with it.? Do note it mounts similar to the early springs and you'll have to make a special bracket/cap to mount it solidly to the diff.? Stock springs are rated at @ 110 lbs, the composite spring is rated at @ 250 lbs.? It comes with urethane bushings mounted in aluminum eyes at both ends of the spring.? Give them a call to order, I found them very familiar with the Spitfires and knowledgable about the early and late (swing) springs. >Cost is about $300.00 but, there is a substantial weight savings going to the composite spring.. > >My 2 cents, >Bob T >'64 Spit GT autocrosser > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rocky Entriken >To: Richard Gehweiler ; fot at autox.team.net >Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 2:02 am >Subject: Re: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > > >Or early ones? > >Rocky Entriken > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Gehweiler" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:57 PM >Subject: [Fot] Spitfire rear spring > > >> Does anyone know of a composite rear spring for late spitfires? >> >> >> >> Richard Gehweiler >> >> mini at wi.rr.com >> >> 1.262.894.5460 >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rocky at spitfire4.com >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as robertten1 at aol.com >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as jsiam1 at earthlink.net From rem9 at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 27 13:08:01 2008 From: rem9 at frontiernet.net (Russ Moore) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:08:01 -0400 Subject: [Fot] battery question Message-ID: <010001c8d889$1ebe3440$5c3a9cc0$@net> Sorry to bomb the list. I have a question regarding deep cycle batteries for a motor home application. Anybody have some savy on this topic? I have run twin deep cycle Marine twelve volt 27 series batteries in the past and have a problem keeping them. These are not for starting or running the drive train, I have a separate 27 series automotive battery for that. The latest pair died and I found out the value of that warranty. Worth zip! There's a surprise. That's the third set since 2000. Ouch! Russ Moore From bswope959 at msn.com Fri Jun 27 15:21:25 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:21:25 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders References: <003a01c8d664$9b8f69c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: I am sorry but I am not going to make the GLEN race but I am sure there are others such as I that would buy Hats and shirts that can't be there $20.00 is as easy as 19.$. Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Sohl To: fot at autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders Given the "limited" production of these shirts, the great design and the silk-screening on both sides, I say $19 is fine we me...and let's be candid, most of us spend twice that taking our significant other out for a dinner and a drink. Cheers, Bill Sohl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Janzen" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen Shirts and Hats - Pricing and Orders > Thanks for the orders to date. In addition to the orders, I did get a > negative reaction to the $19 price of the tee shirt - I don't disagree > it's > expensive for a tee, but we have to spread the five color printing costs > and > artwork costs over a limited number of shirts. > Please get your orders in - at the current number of orders we can't > afford > to offer them at all. Conversely, if we can sell more than the 100 > estimated, > the cost can come down. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billsohl at optonline.net _______________________________________________ http://www.team.net/donate.html Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as bswope959 at msn.com From stutzmans at comcast.net Fri Jun 27 18:11:38 2008 From: stutzmans at comcast.net (Stutzman) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:11:38 -0400 Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 References: <000401c8d744$6f923560$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <002a01c8d8b3$895e3fa0$c70aa8c0@D9DGQM31> The vacuum unit pointing forward is advance. The vacuum unit facing toward the firewall is retard. The advance unit connects to the front carb and the retard unit connects to rhe rear carb. Disconnect the retard unit and plug the line to the carb.All the retard unit does is retard the spark at idle and give you a lousy idle. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim hearn" To: "'Friends of Triumph'" Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: [Fot] How to best hook up a two vacuum distributor on a 74 TR6 >I have a 1974 TR6 that I use entirely for AutoX and on the track. It was > previously an SCCA club racer. I have not had the motor down so the only > mods that I am aware of are slightly hotter cam (don't know specs), > headers > (homemade but look good), and the early two vacuum distributor. If I only > have one vacuum line from the stock ZS carbs, does it matter which vacuum > unit I hook it to and is the other simply closed off? Or is there another > way altogether? Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, Jim > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had > a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as stutzmans at comcast.net From tony at tonydrews.com Fri Jun 27 19:00:43 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:00:43 -0500 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) In-Reply-To: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <863258.54595.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080628010026.8A1BA18789F@autox.team.net> I sent it on to the Thicko list. Good idea. - Tony At 11:54 AM 6/27/2008, Steven Benford Jr wrote: >From: Steven Benford Jr >To: Tom Householder Subject: Re: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) > >Tom, > > I am not sure of which person to contact, but I know that Jack > and Joe might be able to forward this to the Team Thicko guys. I > am sure they would help with keeping an eye open for the car. From igofaster at charter.net Sat Jun 28 17:49:30 2008 From: igofaster at charter.net (igofaster at charter.net) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:49:30 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080628194930.8GLLB.592771.root@fepweb03> Hello FoT! I have this lovely Toyota T50 mated up to a GT6 bellhousing. I also own a TR6 with NO overdrive. Two questions... One, will the GT6 bellhousing mate up to a TR6 block... like can I use the T50 in my TR6? five beautiful speeds, forward!!! Second, can I mate a TR6 transmission up to a GT6? Bobby Whitehead From Gt6steve at aol.com Sat Jun 28 17:55:05 2008 From: Gt6steve at aol.com (Gt6steve at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:55:05 EDT Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines Message-ID: Yes and no to both questions. The GT6 and TR6 rear engine plates are subtly different, proving these cars were built by commitee. The GT6 and TR6 flanges are also on a different boltcenter. Nothing that can't be overcome. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From wgrosenbach at juno.com Sat Jun 28 18:01:15 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:01:15 -0600 Subject: [Fot] GT6 and TR6 Transmissions/engines Message-ID: <20080628.180117.2364.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>> will the GT6 bellhousing mate up to a TR6 block? Yes. With the correct rear enging plate. >>>can I mate a TR6 transmission up to a GT6? Yes. But the ratios are not very satisfying. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Click here to save cash and find low rates on auto loans. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ndyIRPK7RhmGoHiWQk4E7mr78rUXaI5biwq9r4UhVFsgXqC/ From cak at dimebank.com Sat Jun 28 18:30:58 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? Message-ID: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... From claus at triumphracing.net Sun Jun 29 07:13:35 2008 From: claus at triumphracing.net (claus at triumphracing.net) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:13:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> And what works, one might add. I was surfing the web for information on good systems for for my GT6 Mk2 and my saloon 2.5PI (both road cars), and came across this thread: http://www.totallytriumph.net/dcforum/DCForumID19/2.shtml I hadn't heard about Gareth Thomas before, but after reading the above purchased his Tuning Manual via Ebay. I found that his writing is certainly another type of prose than Kas Kastners books - rather aggressive, in fact much like the thread above, where the author posted some thoughts on the exhaust manifolds. However much of the information is very general and not always really exact in how nor even specific in what to do. His thoughts did get me wondering about the manifolds, though: Even to the point of considering whether anyone of the currently available 6-3-1 systems are good enough to warrant spending money on? Certainly Mr. Thomas doesn't hold the Moss system in high esteem... > Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has > dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as claus at triumphracing.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 13:00:42 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:00:42 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> <13353.85.80.230.77.1214745215.squirrel@webmail01.one.com> Message-ID: <25EF69C7-2E3C-43FD-8061-5160ADB4C10B@bnj.com> Clearly knows what he's doing as far as cars go, though his notion that everyone is "stealing my stuff" is tiresome. We're all copying Harry Ricardo and the guys who figured everything out. The biggest fights are for the smallest prize. On Jun 29, 2008, at 6:13 AM, claus at triumphracing.net wrote: > And what works, one might add. I was surfing the web for information > on > good systems for for my GT6 Mk2 and my saloon 2.5PI (both road > cars), and > came across this thread: > > http://www.totallytriumph.net/dcforum/DCForumID19/2.shtml > > I hadn't heard about Gareth Thomas before, but after reading the above > purchased his Tuning Manual via Ebay. I found that his writing is > certainly another type of prose than Kas Kastners books - rather > aggressive, in fact much like the thread above, where the author > posted > some thoughts on the exhaust manifolds. However much of the > information is > very general and not always really exact in how nor even specific in > what > to do. > > His thoughts did get me wondering about the manifolds, though: Even > to the > point of considering whether anyone of the currently available 6-3-1 > systems are good enough to warrant spending money on? Certainly Mr. > Thomas > doesn't hold the Moss system in high esteem... > > > >> Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has >> dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as claus at triumphracing.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 14:47:43 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:47:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 29 14:54:58 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:54:58 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <000c01c8da2a$645a4be0$0202a8c0@newcomputer> I built an aluminum shroud that attached to the radiator frame. The fan attached to the shroud. Worked great Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jim hearn Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:48 PM To: 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 15:51:31 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:51:31 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000c01c8da2a$645a4be0$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <000001c8da32$4ae12c30$b1191718@computer> Do I ultimately want the fan housing to even touch the radiator or should it be mounted (on a special mount) back from the surface of the radiator face by an 1/8 to 1/4 inch? Do you have any photos of the shroud you made? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Curry [mailto:spitlist at cox.net] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:55 PM To: 'jim hearn'; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: RE: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I built an aluminum shroud that attached to the radiator frame. The fan attached to the shroud. Worked great Joe C. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of jim hearn Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:48 PM To: 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way through the radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From jrherrera90 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:11:44 2008 From: jrherrera90 at hotmail.com (John Herrera) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:11:44 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan> to gain the hp. I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power used to drive the fan. Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases losses. What am I missing? John H. From rjl at gt-classics.com Sun Jun 29 16:15:32 2008 From: rjl at gt-classics.com (R. John Lye) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:15:32 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <20.22.19958.77908684@smtp07.embarq.synacor.com> At 06:11 PM 6/29/2008, John Herrera wrote: >Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move >the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where >I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only >thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of >the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do >you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases >losses. > >What am I missing? One part that you are missing is that the electric fan can be turned off when it is not needed, and therefore it won't draw power all the time. The crank mounted fan spins and draws power whether or not it is actually needed. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:17:11 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:17:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street car driven over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, but if you drag raced that car against another the lack of a fan would be horsepower to the good. Also, unless your fan has a very trick clutch it rotates at variable RPM which is as bad for a fan's efficiency as it is for a propellor. On Jun 29, 2008, at 3:11 PM, John Herrera wrote: >> I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt >> driven fan> > to gain the hp. > > > I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power > used to > drive the fan. > > Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven > fan move > the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe > this is where > I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. > The only > thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator > instead of > the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, > so what do > you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which > increases > losses. > > What am I missing? > > John H. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From spitlist at cox.net Sun Jun 29 16:23:23 2008 From: spitlist at cox.net (Joe Curry) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:23 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Mechanical fan draws from the engine's power to spin the fan. Electric fan draws from the battery to spin the fan. Only if the alternator/generator requires the same amount of power to charge the battery does there achieve no difference in power requirements. Since alternators are typically more efficient than mechanical fans, it is a net gain in power if you use an electric fan. Even greater difference if you don't have an alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if you want to charge the battery between runs. Joe -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+spitlist=cox.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Herrera Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:12 PM To: jim hearn; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt driven fan> to gain the hp. I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. Or, to put it another way, decreases the loss of power used to drive the fan. Lets' say, for simplicity, that the electric fan and the belt-driven fan move the same amount of air. If the fans are equally efficient (maybe this is where I'm off base), then the same amount of power is used to drive them. The only thing that has changed is that the power comes from your alternator instead of the crankshaft. But the alternator robs power from the crankshaft, so what do you gain? Also you have introduced a middleman into the sytem, which increases losses. What am I missing? John H. Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as spitlist at cox.net From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:23:27 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:27 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> References: <000001c8da29$615abcf0$b1191718@computer> Message-ID: <6FED297C-260E-482C-A2A1-3F03A38025A9@bnj.com> I learned NOT to mount the fan in front of the radiator. It caused Peyote to actually overheat--first time ever. I'd never use the ties again either--they might be too soft to rub through the radiator metal, but the grit that gathers around them is not. I got a leaky rad from a push-through mount. I just made a bracket to mount the fan in back of the radiator (spaced well away) and ran it as a puller. You only run it on the grid or when tuning anyway. Now I actually have made a removable fan that I just stick in for hot days on the grid or tuning. On Jun 29, 2008, at 1:47 PM, jim hearn wrote: > I am trying to mount an electric pusher fan in lieu of the belt > driven fan > to gain the hp. The radiator in my '74 TR6 ex-SCCA racer is the high > density type so I am not able to mount with ties the usual way > through the > radiator. Does anyone have any ideas as to a good way to mount the > aftermarket fan? Thanks for any ideas. Jim > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef > which had a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 29 16:25:24 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:25:24 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080629222524.FURE7689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> > The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street > car driven over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, > but if you drag raced that car against another the lack of a > fan would be horsepower to the good. In addition, hopefully the electric fan runs only when needed; which should generally only be at lower speeds. In day-to-day driving, mine comes on only when I'm stuck in traffic, or just got off the freeway. The actual duty cycle is quite low. Randall From tr3driver at ca.rr.com Sun Jun 29 16:32:40 2008 From: tr3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:32:40 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> Message-ID: <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> > Even greater difference if you don't have an > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > you want to charge the battery between runs. Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full power. Randall From rjl at gt-classics.com Sun Jun 29 16:36:36 2008 From: rjl at gt-classics.com (R. John Lye) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:36:36 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> References: <000f01c8da36$be60e750$0202a8c0@newcomputer> <20080629223240.JFBW9879.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <89.CD.03947.76E08684@smtp08.embarq.synacor.com> At 06:32 PM 6/29/2008, Randall wrote: > > Even greater difference if you don't have an > > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > > you want to charge the battery between runs. > >Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you >mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best >of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full >power. I've seen it done on a Prepared class Spridget - which won several National SCCA titles. He just mounted a microswitch that controlled a relay to disable the alternator when the throttle pedal was sufficiently depressed. It seemed to work well. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net From cak at dimebank.com Sun Jun 29 16:59:26 2008 From: cak at dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <200806292259.m5TMxQTJ024684@moose.dimebank.com> The other thing that you're missing is that the electric radiator turns at its design speed all the time its running. The fan connected to the crankshaft spins at the engine speed - which means, especially in a race situation, that it's usually turning much faster than it was designed for, and is mostly wasting energy instead of moving air (the blades are just 'stalling'). From wgrosenbach at juno.com Sun Jun 29 18:18:42 2008 From: wgrosenbach at juno.com (William G Rosenbach) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:18:42 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator Message-ID: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> >>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in horsepower. It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. Bill ____________________________________________________________ Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you need! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ From fpspitfire at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 18:27:07 2008 From: fpspitfire at comcast.net (fpspitfire at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:27:07 +0000 Subject: [Fot] French Grand Prix Message-ID: <063020080027.20088.4868285B00070B5600004E7822147564020A9D07009B079F9C9F00@comcast.net> Does anyone out there have the Formula One French Grand Prix recorded? If so...is it legal to burn a copy of it for me? I forgot to set the DVR when I left and didn't get to see the race coverage...although in fairness I did get to see the race from Esciente Golf on the back straight at Magny Cours. :) I'd just like to have footage of the race like I do for every other pro race I've been to. aaron From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 18:33:36 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:33:36 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Any weight or drag removed from the 'Rotating Mass' is a big help for power..less effort to spin stuff Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From Robertten1 at aol.com Sun Jun 29 19:51:48 2008 From: Robertten1 at aol.com (Robertten1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:51:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? Message-ID: Check out the Triumph Sports Six Club in jolly ole England, you'll find a couple of choises. Cheers, Bob T. PS if that is too far check out APT Fast on the west coast, the carry the Maniflow brand. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) From bswope959 at msn.com Sun Jun 29 20:46:10 2008 From: bswope959 at msn.com (Bill Swope) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:46:10 -0600 Subject: [Fot] TR4 MOTOR Message-ID: Any one jot a sorce for a new TR-4 motor with heads Wm. (Bill) Swope dba C ME GO Racing 1030 Green Valley Rd. NW Los Ranchos, N M 87107 bswope959 at msn.com (505) 345-6235; fax (505) 345-1180 From billbab at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:31:11 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:31:11 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: It's not the weight, it's the fan. Takes a lot of horsepower to turn that at high speed when it's stalling and fluttering. Maybe then horsepower or more. Water pumps are pretty bad too, as are oil pumps. On Jun 29, 2008, at 5:33 PM, RACER BUD wrote: > Any weight or drag removed from the 'Rotating Mass' is a big help for > power..less effort to spin stuff > Racer Bud > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William G Rosenbach" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density > radiator > > >>>>> I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a >>>>> gain in >> horsepower. >> >> It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my >> Spitfire >> 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of >> life, >> running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When >> it did, >> it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. >> Bill >> ____________________________________________________________ From lang at isis.mit.edu Sun Jun 29 21:42:12 2008 From: lang at isis.mit.edu (Robert Lang) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> <001e01c8da48$eff39e40$0202a8c0@Bud> Message-ID: Hi, Anecdotal reference: JK and GRM took a TR6 to a dyno to tune it... the goal was Street Prepared SCCA Solo. The BIGGEST HP gain they got in the exercise was 8 HP. They put on Webers, played with timing, added a header... all the legal street prepared stuff (no internal mods) and losing the fan was the big "winner". They removed the crank driven fan and got 8 HP. That's huge for a "free" upgrade. The answer is that the parasitic loss from the fan blade drag is always there (from idle to the red line). An electric fan is way more efficient and your aren't connecting it to the CRANK. There's no mechanical advantage or anything when you connect to the crank. About the only thing you should drive from the crank is a supercharger. :-) I dumped the fans on my TR6's years ago. c ya, rml --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Lang NER/SCCA | This space for rent Solo Chair 2008 TR6 40 F Prepared | Triumph! Voice:781-438-2568 FAX: 617-258-9535 | Cell: 339-927-4489 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From triosan at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:45:03 2008 From: triosan at gmail.com (Chuck Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:45:03 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> References: <200806290030.m5T0Uwbq026951@moose.dimebank.com> Message-ID: <8cbd782d0806292045h708a767fnc660d3596e3759b1@mail.gmail.com> See Kas's last book for the header sold by Tony Lindsey-Dean out of England. 6-3-1. Beautiful welds. Cost me $600 plus shipping a couple of years ago. See pictures and a comparison to a Pacesetter header at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/KingstonHeaderVerusPacesetter On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > Who's selling GT6 headers these days? It seems that Moss Europe has > dropped most of the old TriumphTune product line... > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as triosan at gmail.com > -- Chuck Arnold From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 21:58:07 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:58:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <89.CD.03947.76E08684@smtp08.embarq.synacor.com> Message-ID: <000501c8da65$815c6fd0$b1191718@computer> I unplug my alternator when racing. -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of R. John Lye Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:37 PM To: Randall; 'Friends of Triumph' Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator At 06:32 PM 6/29/2008, Randall wrote: > > Even greater difference if you don't have an > > alternator/generator. On Autocross cars that is possible if > > you want to charge the battery between runs. > >Always wondered about adding a switch to disable the alternator when you >mash the loud pedal; but never tried it. Seems like that could be the best >of both worlds; let you run a little battery but no alternator drag at full >power. I've seen it done on a Prepared class Spridget - which won several National SCCA titles. He just mounted a microswitch that controlled a relay to disable the alternator when the throttle pedal was sufficiently depressed. It seemed to work well. R. John Lye rjl6n at cstone.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jimhearn1 at comcast.net From 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 22:33:14 2008 From: 19to1tr6 at comcast.net (rob) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> but I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was a little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running with out the alt? rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net From budscars at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 22:40:39 2008 From: budscars at comcast.net (RACER BUD) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:40:39 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <000401c8da6b$72d00390$0202a8c0@Bud> Maybe I'm not in the loop here...On my race car, I use an electric fan..mounted in front of the radiator..inside the shroud...I only turn it on when my temp goes up..I have no fan whatsoever attached to the engine... are you guys talking about street cars? Racer Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "rob" <19to1tr6 at comcast.net> To: ; "William G Rosenbach" Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> > but > I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was > a > little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing > are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the > recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min > session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running > with out the alt? rob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William G Rosenbach" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density > radiator > > >>>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in >> horsepower. >> >> It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire >> 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, >> running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, >> it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. >> Bill >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car >> you >> need! >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as budscars at comcast.net From jimhearn1 at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 23:34:41 2008 From: jimhearn1 at comcast.net (jim hearn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:41 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c8da72$fec269e0$b1191718@computer> What is the crank trigger that you speak of? -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+jimhearn1=comcast.net at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of rob Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:33 PM To: jrherrera90 at hotmail.com; William G Rosenbach Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator while playing on a chassie dyno I recall >>well i don't recall exactly> but I seem to recall about a 2 hp gain on a run with a disconected Alt. It was a little bit of a wow factor because we were hrs into the sesion and clawing are way up the hp chart.Idid not want to eliminate the Alt. on the recomendation the crank trigger would not have enought jucie for a 30 min session Joe (B) did you install the crank trigger? If so are you running with out the alt? rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "William G Rosenbach" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8Mf EeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as 19to1tr6 at comcast.net Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as jimhearn1 at comcast.net From henry at henryfrye.com Mon Jun 30 05:36:21 2008 From: henry at henryfrye.com (Henry Frye) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:36:21 -0400 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers? In-Reply-To: <8cbd782d0806292045h708a767fnc660d3596e3759b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2B52E8650115BB4085979C721A085AD40A3B0A@server.Triumph.local> Wow, that Tony Lindsey-Dean header looks really, really nice. I don't race a 6 cyl, but that header would look great on my shop wall. While my wife wouldn't blink paying that kind of money for art for the house, I can't justify it for the shop wall. But, if I got one, I might be enticed to build a TR250 racer and try to catch up with Leo at VIR! Does anybody know what happened to Fletcher's TR250 racer that was at The Mitty a couple years ago? :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Arnold > Subject: Re: [Fot] GT6 headers? > > See Kas's last book for the header sold by Tony Lindsey-Dean > out of England. 6-3-1. Beautiful welds. Cost me $600 plus > shipping a couple of years ago. > See pictures and a comparison to a Pacesetter header at: > http://picasaweb.google.com/Triosan/KingstonHeaderVerusPacesetter From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 30 09:08:30 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:08:30 EDT Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ Message-ID: FoT List, If you are NOT interested in this, please delete. I heard from Ishahara-Johnson Crank Scrapers, today. There are medical issues in the family and testing for these issues has slowed the progress down a bit. The 2-3 Triumph Pre-Group Orders are slated to ship this week, as I understand it. I suspect that all Group Orders will ship all during the month of July, including mine. Based on what I have heard so far, our patience will be rewarded with a fine product. If you have a window of opportunity to install in your engineand would like to put a RUSH on your order, I can try to expedite. Regards, Joe From igofaster at charter.net Mon Jun 30 09:26:46 2008 From: igofaster at charter.net (igofaster at charter.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 8:26:46 -0700 Subject: [Fot] GT6 headers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080630112646.EUTKA.610540.root@fepweb02> Rimmer Brothers in England has a nice stainless steel header system that , if you choose, has a complete stainless steel system, all the way to the tailpipe. It's a three into two into one system... bolted right up, WITHOUT tweaking! I had one on my green GT6+, although I never raced that car. rimmerbros.com they have a nice catalog for the GT6 as well as others... I found them years ago when I restored my Triumph 2000 Saloon.... Bobby Whitehead #54CVAR YELLOW GT6+ From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Mon Jun 30 09:26:19 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:26:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? Scott From N197TR4 at cs.com Mon Jun 30 09:34:48 2008 From: N197TR4 at cs.com (N197TR4 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:34:48 EDT Subject: [Fot] Countdown to Watkins Glen-Commercial Offering Message-ID: FOT Glen Attendees and Participants Other than a cash sponsorship from Classic Motorsports, I have not solicited for any funds or contributions from the FoT. I still am not soliciting for funds. However, if any FOT Commercial entity would like to hang a sign, place an easel, show some product, hand out samples, please do. If you wish to donate some amount to the FOT coffers, please do. Or not. No direct vending would be anticipated....Ted has to pay for that privilege and that wouldnt be fair to him or the track. There are many folks donating time and effort and costs to make this weekend happen. TRF is bringing in the TRS....Joe Richards & Robert Smith are bringing in TS1 at great personal expense....The VTR is supplying a Glen event poster....BDI is supplying the Golf Car for Peg & Kas.....WPTA will be very visible with their usual contribution of HOSPITALITY, etc. There are folks coming in from far reaches & bringing significantly historic cars. Unless the gas prices cause a mass retreat, this event is going to HUGE. So, if you wish to contact me about what you might do, we can discuss. Showing wares that enhance the performance of our cars seems like a beneficial thing to do and entertaining, as well. Do as you wish. I'd like to see Ratco bring in a TR frame for display, but he wants to have fun, not work. :-) I hope this doesnt open up a fire storm...it is not intended to. If it does, I'll shut the idea down. I am spread a bit thin and may stub my toe...my apologies in advance. Thanks, Joe From kaskas at cox.net Mon Jun 30 09:36:15 2008 From: kaskas at cox.net (Kas Kastner) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:36:15 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629.181845.3732.0.wgrosenbach@juno.com> Message-ID: <01DBA883CB7540BFAE78993302223E60@RW> Back in my TR-3 racing days I did all the tests of the fan mounted to the crank. We were not allowed to remove the fan, but I found I could flatten the blades enough that I got almost the same result. This did require some serious heat to the hub. Racers will always be ahead of the rules makers. -------------------------------------------------- From: "William G Rosenbach" Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:18 PM To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator >>>>I've always wondered how changing to an electric fan causes a gain in > horsepower. > > It doesn't seem that the fan can take much power to run. On my Spitfire > 1500, when the thermostatic fan clutch was in its last throws of life, > running along at 4500 RPM the clutch would instantly engage. When it did, > it slowed the car as quickly as a sharp stab on the brakes. > Bill > ____________________________________________________________ > Huge inventory of used cars and trucks. Click now to find the used car you > need! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oE0b8PflSa7lT9bBIj8MfEeAqkbzuPkl0ktmla7AlcJbfrM/ > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as kaskas at cox.net From rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 30 09:57:24 2008 From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com (rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:57:24 -0400 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings Message-ID: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. If it is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe placement is key. Bob GT6 TR4 Datsun 2000 Datsun 510 trans am ---- "Barr wrote: > Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures > are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching > 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From sbarr at McCarty-Law.com Mon Jun 30 10:17:32 2008 From: sbarr at McCarty-Law.com (Barr, Scott) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:17:32 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> References: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> Message-ID: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Thanks, Bob. The probes in the header I was using at the last race weekend ARE too close to the head - about 3 inches from the port. So I didn't believe the 1400 degree reading on the EGT, as you suggest. We just installed the skinniest needles I own (BGs) and screwed the jets down until they were ready to fall out. With those changes, it was still running at 1400 degrees on the rear EGT at between 8,000 and 8,500 revs, with lower temps on the #1 probe. All four plugs had an even tan color to them, no white ones, no dark ones. Then the exhaust valve on #4, the cylinder with the higher readings, went away (stuck open, broke off?) and did some impressive damage to the piston and combustion chamber. Could be just coincidence that the highest EGT readings were from the cylinder where we had the problem with the exhaust valve, but I'm not inclined to bet another engine on it :-) This weekend we plugged in a spare motor and swapped to another header with the probe holes in the correct location, according to the instructions, and found that I still had significantly higher exhaust gas temperatures on #4 (1250 degrees at idle). I'm presently looking for an air leak to explain the significant difference between #1 and #4. If I don't find an air leak, I'll start looking for other explanations. But all of that raises the question - how hot is too hot? Is 1400 degrees acceptable? 1450? All day? Scott -----Original Message----- From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com [mailto:rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:57 AM To: Barr, Scott Cc: fot at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Fot] EGT readings One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. If it is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe placement is key. Bob GT6 TR4 Datsun 2000 Datsun 510 trans am ---- "Barr wrote: > Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas > temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back > were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 10:36:43 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:36:43 -0700 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> References: <24513188.423181214841444720.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z02> <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CDD@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Message-ID: How high is up? there are too many factors to be able to answer that question. The burn flame temperature in a typical engine is 3000-3500 degrees. That cools rapidly as the gas expands out the exhaust port but that's where it starts. At the end of the exhaust pipe, even a relatively short one, the temperature is only 200 degrees or thereabouts. EGT is a relative indication. That said, you probably have an air leak. On Jun 30, 2008, at 9:17 AM, Barr, Scott wrote: > Thanks, Bob. > > The probes in the header I was using at the last race weekend ARE too > close to the head - about 3 inches from the port. So I didn't believe > the 1400 degree reading on the EGT, as you suggest. We just installed > the skinniest needles I own (BGs) and screwed the jets down until they > were ready to fall out. With those changes, it was still running at > 1400 degrees on the rear EGT at between 8,000 and 8,500 revs, with > lower > temps on the #1 probe. All four plugs had an even tan color to > them, no > white ones, no dark ones. > > Then the exhaust valve on #4, the cylinder with the higher readings, > went away (stuck open, broke off?) and did some impressive damage to > the > piston and combustion chamber. > > Could be just coincidence that the highest EGT readings were from the > cylinder where we had the problem with the exhaust valve, but I'm not > inclined to bet another engine on it :-) > > This weekend we plugged in a spare motor and swapped to another header > with the probe holes in the correct location, according to the > instructions, and found that I still had significantly higher exhaust > gas temperatures on #4 (1250 degrees at idle). I'm presently looking > for an air leak to explain the significant difference between #1 and > #4. > If I don't find an air leak, I'll start looking for other > explanations. > > But all of that raises the question - how hot is too hot? Is 1400 > degrees acceptable? 1450? All day? > > Scott > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com [mailto:rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:57 AM > To: Barr, Scott > Cc: fot at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Fot] EGT readings > > One of the dependencies to consider is the placement of the probe. > If it > is to close to the combustion fire then it will read higher than you > think it should. You will have to conider ather factors in determining > if 1400 is right or wrong, ie, spark plugs, holes burned in your > pistons. I always considered 1200-1300 fairly normal. But again, probe > placement is key. > > Bob > GT6 > TR4 > Datsun 2000 > Datsun 510 trans am > ---- "Barr wrote: >> Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas >> temperatures are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends >> back > >> were reaching 1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? >> >> Scott >> _______________________________________________ >> http://www.team.net/donate.html >> >> Fot mailing list >> Fot at autox.team.net >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot >> >> You are subscribed as rdavis4 at cfl.rr.com > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 13:12:28 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:12:28 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting Message-ID: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. It runs great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I connect the second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to the extent it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory cloth through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading points at 29 degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 degrees and total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here . . . what's wrong with the second set? From walt at hot-tr6.com Mon Jun 30 13:50:06 2008 From: walt at hot-tr6.com (Walter Hollowell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:50:06 -0600 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <20080630194946.83CCB18786B@autox.team.net> Throw on a new condensor. Start with the easiest things first. I run a Mallory on my TR6 and when it starts missing or backfiring I swap condensors and my problems go away. Walt Abq., NM -----Original Message----- From: fot-bounces+walt=hot-tr6.com at autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces+walt=hot-tr6.com at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Scott Janzen Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 1:12 PM To: fot at autox.team.net Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. It runs great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I connect the second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to the extent it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory cloth through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading points at 29 degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 degrees and total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here . . . what's wrong with the second set? Fot mailing list Fot at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot You are subscribed as walt at hot-tr6.com From billbab at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 15:35:51 2008 From: billbab at gmail.com (Bill Babcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:35:51 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> References: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> Message-ID: <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> In the first place, NEVER run emory cloth through points. If you have a diamond point file then you can dress them carefully, but emory cloth just rounds the edges and reduces the contact area. I don't bother to look at the dwell of dual point distributors. Just set the point gap (to .025 as I recall, but I'm away from the notes) and then adjust the timing. My guess is that you're setting the point gap too narrow when you try to set dwell, but I could be wrong. Also, always suspect condensers--they're junk these days. On Jun 30, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Scott Janzen wrote: > My GT6 has a one year old dual point in it with mechanical advance. > It runs > great when only the leading set of points are connected. When I > connect the > second set, it barely idles and breaks up through the rpm range, to > the extent > it revs at all. I changed out the points with a new set, ran emory > cloth > through the points, etc, no improvement. I'm setting the leading > points at 29 > degrees dwell and 35 combined. I have initial advance at about 10 > degrees and > total advance at 32. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious > here . . . what's > wrong with the second set? > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as billb at bnj.com Bill Babcock Babcock & Jenkins Billb at bnj.com 503.936.7660 www.bnj.com From twakeman at razzolink.com Mon Jun 30 16:45:07 2008 From: twakeman at razzolink.com (TeriAnn Wakeman) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:45:07 -0700 Subject: [Fot] Mallory dual point trouble-shooting In-Reply-To: <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> References: <005101c8dae5$3d8bd7c0$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> <8F103521-3B60-4AA4-9184-5F5EB6DB52B5@bnj.com> Message-ID: <486961F3.3090602@razzolink.com> Bill Babcock wrote: > always suspect condensers--they're junk these days. > > Also if you are loosing condensers on a regular basis always suspect your distributor's ground. I was going through condensers like popcorn until I added a ground wire between the screw attaching the condenser and the engine block (screw holding the coil on). Haven't lost one since. Somehow a less than perfect ground kills Mallory condensers. Teriann From jerrybarr at charter.net Mon Jun 30 16:46:19 2008 From: jerrybarr at charter.net (Jerry Barr) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:46:19 -0500 Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> I hope you have better luck with them than I have. I ordered two complete scrapers with the teflon inserts in early April. I paid for them by credit card and have never received them. I called in early June and they told me they would be shipped within the week, I still haven't received them. Jerry Barr On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:08 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: > FoT List, > > If you are NOT interested in this, please delete. > > I heard from Ishahara-Johnson Crank Scrapers, today. There are > medical > issues in the family and testing for these issues has slowed the > progress down a > bit. > > The 2-3 Triumph Pre-Group Orders are slated to ship this week, as I > understand it. > > I suspect that all Group Orders will ship all during the month of > July, > including mine. Based on what I have heard so far, our patience > will be rewarded > with a fine product. > > If you have a window of opportunity to install in your engineand > would like > to put a RUSH on your order, I can try to expedite. > > Regards, > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as jerrybarr at charter.net From trhouse at greenapple.com Mon Jun 30 17:36:46 2008 From: trhouse at greenapple.com (Tom Householder) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:36:46 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Stolen LBC (Central Ohio) photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Photos of the stolen car can be seen at..... http://www.doretti.com/StolenPage.html on 6/27/08 1:08 PM, Tom Householder at trhouse at greenapple.com wrote: The engine was performanced out in the past few years . Had an alloy valvecover etc. Photos are available if interested . tom on 6/27/08 12:54 PM, Steven Benford Jr at sbracing at sbcglobal.net wrote: From tony at tonydrews.com Mon Jun 30 17:48:15 2008 From: tony at tonydrews.com (Tony Drews) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:48:15 -0500 Subject: [Fot] EGT readings In-Reply-To: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty- law.com> References: <3D19C37868680F46BA3E66A8945C9C74C88CC3@svr-exch01.mccarty-law.com> Message-ID: <20080630234805.1D1DC187681@autox.team.net> I routinely run 1400 degrees both front and rear in my TR-4 with correct probe placement. I used to run higher than that due to not enough spark advance. Front and rear should be close to each other, though. In the TR-4 it's more the water temp that causes valves to stick in the head and hit the piston and drop the little head off of the valve. - Tony At 10:26 AM 6/30/2008, Barr, Scott wrote: >Here's a new topic - how hot is too hot, where exhaust gas temperatures >are concerned? My EGT readings a couple of weekends back were reaching >1400 degrees F. Is that considered too hot? > >Scott >_______________________________________________ >http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Fot mailing list >Fot at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > >You are subscribed as tony at tonydrews.com From S.Janzen at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 19:18:16 2008 From: S.Janzen at comcast.net (Scott Janzen) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:18:16 -0400 Subject: [Fot] Watkins Glen FOT shirts/caps- Calling for all orders! Message-ID: <011701c8db18$575e6040$6501a8c0@vefadvisors.com> We've had a good response so far. If orders correlate to attendance, about 40 of you are planning on attending. Ted tells me that the Glen only honors marques about every ten years, so this is your best chance to come to the Glen and/or get a shirt or hat commemorating it for another decade! I am going to try to wrap this up over the next week so that Ted can get this stuff manufactured in plenty of time before summer is seriously upon us. We expect to order few, if any, extras, so if you do not order up front there may not be another chance. For anyone who missed the first email, here it is again: we're going to offer three clothing items- a long sleeve denim shirt with a Triumph shield/laurel/Kastner Cup logo embroidered on the left front Baseball cap (blue or khaki) with the same logo Printed tee shirt with a terrific all Triumph race graphic designed by Greg Petrolati on the back, and the five color Amici Triumphi FOT logo you are all familiar with and the words Kastner Cup 2008 below it, on the left front. This will be in color, although it is shown in black and white on the link below Go to the link below and click on the words "photo album", then click on the images a couple of times to see them screen size - the embroidered logos, the shirt and cap and the tee shirt design. At this point, I need you to tell me how many of each of these you want and the size. Just send me an email. We need all orders by July 1. Ted Shumacher is graciously offering to handle credit card processing and will bring all the items to the Glen for pre-paid pick-up. If you do not plan to be at the Glen, shipping is extra. Once we have orders, Ted and I will figure out how to collect credit card info, checks, etc and get back to you once we have the orders. Long Sleeve button down denim shirts in blue or khaki, button down collar, breast pocket, embroidery above pocket. S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $30 +1 for every X above XL. An XL is a 17 neck size, 37" sleeve, so these are good sized shirts Baseball caps - hgh quality Adams cap, one size fits all, khaki color, $16 Tee shirts, light gray background, S-M-L-XL-XXL-XXXL $19, plus $1 for every X above XL http://www.freewebs.com/sjanzen/index.htm From srcypher at mac.com Mon Jun 30 21:28:13 2008 From: srcypher at mac.com (Scott Cypher) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:28:13 -0400 Subject: [Fot] FOT Group Purchase of Crank Scrapers------ In-Reply-To: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> References: <304496FE-EA5A-4F0B-87E7-490FE3ECCAE7@charter.net> Message-ID: It appears he just raised prices, too; used to be < $80 or so for the spit scraper, now its $120 on ebay... Thanks -Scott Cypher spitfireracer at xsmail.com SCCA #57 HP Spitfire 1500 #362573 Reading, PA http://gallery.mac.com/srcypher 1971 Spit MkIV/1500 RaceCar 1971 TR6 TBD 1976 TR7 Street 1968 GT6 Vintage "I'm so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. Its the excitement only a free man can feel. A free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain" On Jun 30, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Jerry Barr wrote: I hope you have better luck with them than I have. I ordered two complete scrapers with the teflon inserts in early April. I paid for them by credit card and have never received them. I called in early June and they told me they would be shipped within the week, I still haven't received them. Jerry Barr On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:08 AM, N197TR4 at cs.com wrote: From spreiss at verizon.net Mon Jun 30 18:55:40 2008 From: spreiss at verizon.net (Steven Preiss) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:55:40 +1100 Subject: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator References: <20080629222524.FURE7689.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@randall> Message-ID: <001d01c8db15$2f0f09d0$2f01a8c0@stevenhgi8vu27> We do get a little carried away with the metaphysics of running these little cars around, sometimes. (In other words, sometimes they run and sometimes they don't.) Steve P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Herrera" To: "Randall" Cc: "'Friends of Triumph'" Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [Fot] Trying to mount an electric fan on a high density radiator > > > The battery, and the fact that races are short. In a street > > car driven > over long distances and averaged, you'd be right, > > but if you drag raced > that car against another the lack of a > > fan would be horsepower to the > good.> > In addition, hopefully the electric fan runs only when needed; which > should> generally only be at lower speeds. In day-to-day driving, mine comes > on> only when I'm stuck in traffic, or just got off the freeway. The actual> > duty cycle is quite low.> > Randall > > Thanks, guys. > > I wasn't thinking about the periods when the electric fan was off. Only the > physics of it. Duh! > > John H. > _______________________________________________ > http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Fot mailing list > Fot at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot > > You are subscribed as spreiss at verizon.net