From bhayes at cs.stanford.edu  Sun Feb  1 17:49:38 2009
From: bhayes at cs.stanford.edu (Barry Hayes)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 16:49:38 -0800
Subject: [Alpines] SF Chronicle article on a tiger rebuild
Message-ID: <d0facb1d0902011649r4e9b533esb45387dd4ba2accb@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/30/MT3R15H5QD.DTL


-- 
bhayes yat cs dot stanford dot edu is what you should put in your
contact files -- it'll forward to me no matter where I move

From william.lewis at ucdmc.ucdavis.edu  Sun Feb  1 21:56:57 2009
From: william.lewis at ucdmc.ucdavis.edu (William Lewis)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 20:56:57 -0800
Subject: [Alpines] 1953 sunbeam talbot alpine
Message-ID: <OFD3D3426D.6A0C42E4-ON88257551.001AE787-88257551.001B2E7C@ucdmc.ucdavis.edu>

The Towe Auto Museum in Sacramento just acquired a 1953 Sunbeam Talbot 
Alpine.  I happened to be riding by when I saw it being unloaded from the 
transport.  They don't know much about the cars.  They have a policy of 
selling any car they get on E Bay to avoid any appearance of favoritism by 
the Board members.  I didn't look at the car well enough to know how 
complete it is, but it is very rough and does not run.  I didn't see any 
rust when I walked around the car.  If you want more information, the 
phone number for the musuem is (916) 442-6802.
Bill Lewis

From kb9csw at juno.com  Mon Feb  2 08:35:30 2009
From: kb9csw at juno.com (D W Spearing)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:35:30 GMT
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
Message-ID: <20090202.153530.16763.0@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>

Hi
I have been having low oil pressure problems, even after a major overhaul, on
my series V.  I read an article somewhere about modifying the oil pressure
regulator valve.  As I recall, a hole is drilled in the hex end and a bolt is
fitted to increase the spring tension, but I do not recall the details. Has
anyone ever done this or know of the article?

---
Dave KB9CSW
David Wm Spearing
kb9csw at juno.com

____________________________________________________________
Not making enough money? Click here to get free info on medical jobs
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2RCbqLNNcw0xRsuMcsLmRNZF2Kh
w7TymGAA8l7RtqU941UV/

From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 08:47:49 2009
From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 07:47:49 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
Message-ID: <2412393.1233589669694.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The article is here:
http://www.team.net/www/rootes/sunbeam/alpine/mk1-5/techtips/techtips.html

Depending on the specific model relief valve, the regulated pressure should
be between 40 and 50 PSI at 2000 RPM and up.

If the pressure is much lower then that, then either the bearing clearances
are too loose, the pump is shot, the relief valve is stuck open, or the gauge
is not accurate.

The purpose of the modification is not to fix clearance problems, but rather
to increase pressure for modified engines.

HTH


Jarrid Gross

-----Original Message-----
>From: D W Spearing <kb9csw at juno.com>
>Sent: Feb 2, 2009 7:35 AM
>To: alpines at autox.team.net
>Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
>
>Hi
>I have been having low oil pressure problems, even after a major overhaul, on
>my series V.  I read an article somewhere about modifying the oil pressure
>regulator valve.  As I recall, a hole is drilled in the hex end and a bolt is
>fitted to increase the spring tension, but I do not recall the details. Has
>anyone ever done this or know of the article?

From tom.hill at att.net  Mon Feb  2 08:51:50 2009
From: tom.hill at att.net (tom.hill at att.net)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:51:50 +0000
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
In-Reply-To: <20090202.153530.16763.0@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <020220091551.22096.49871696000025AF0000565022218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>

Dave,

Check this link 

http://www.team.net/www/rootes/sunbeam/alpine/mk1-5/techtips/prvalve.html

tom hill
-------------- Original message from "D W Spearing" <kb9csw at juno.com>: -------------- 


> Hi 
> I have been having low oil pressure problems, even after a major overhaul, on 
> my series V. I read an article somewhere about modifying the oil pressure 
> regulator valve. As I recall, a hole is drilled in the hex end and a bolt is 
> fitted to increase the spring tension, but I do not recall the details. Has 
> anyone ever done this or know of the article? 
> 
> --- 
> Dave KB9CSW 
> David Wm Spearing 
> kb9csw at juno.com 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________ 
> Not making enough money? Click here to get free info on medical jobs 
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2RCbqLNNcw0xRsuMcsLmRNZF2Kh 
> w7TymGAA8l7RtqU941UV/ 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Alpines at autox.team.net 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines 
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Mon Feb  2 08:58:22 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:58:22 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
In-Reply-To: <020220091551.22096.49871696000025AF0000565022218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>
Message-ID: <3572B6AA42924FA594F6CAC044F20ABE@lehtipuu224865>

After engine rebuild my oil pressure is quite low. I am pretty sure
there is air in the tube from engine to gauge. I could fill it partly,
and it got better.
I am wondering if it is only that air or might there be problems with
oil pump?

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988


-----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
Ldhettdjd: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] Puolesta tom.hill at att.net
Ldhetetty: 2. helmikuuta 2009 17:52
Vastaanottaja: D W Spearing; alpines at autox.team.net
Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve

Dave,

Check this link

http://www.team.net/www/rootes/sunbeam/alpine/mk1-5/techtips/prvalve.htm
l

tom hill
-------------- Original message from "D W Spearing" <kb9csw at juno.com>:
--------------
http://www.team.net/archive

From JACranwell at aol.com  Mon Feb  2 10:03:32 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:03:32 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
Message-ID: <c0d.4853894f.36b88164@aol.com>

Lauri,

Assuming you have the correct tolerance between the bearings, and the crank, 
then it is most probably the oil pump, unfortunately.

Personally, I always replace the oil pump, or at least check the tolerances, 
as per the manual, when I rebuild.

However the good news is at least you can get to it with the engine in place, 
sump off, which is more than you can do on most modern cars.

Other likely causes would be loose or cracked oil feeder to the rocker shaft, 
or the bypass valve, as previously noted.

It may be worth trying another gauge, but they rarely fail.

Good luck,

Julian.

From achd73 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 10:24:56 2009
From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:24:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
In-Reply-To: <3572B6AA42924FA594F6CAC044F20ABE@lehtipuu224865>
Message-ID: <748243.44632.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sir- IF it is air, which I doubt, then you need to crack the fitting loose on
the back of the gauge- unless it is an earlier model electric gauge. Since you
mentioned air I will contimue to think it is a mechanical gauge with a
pressure line to the back of the gauge. IF you break the fitting loose- enough
to create a small leak you will be able to bleed any air from the line. The
problem this creates is catching the oil that leaks out of the gauge. Since
its an Alpine- removal of the line and using a catch pan may work the best-
you will then have a visual on how much pressure you are getting. Im sure I
have a spare gauge IF necessary Im glad to ship it to you.
I dont remember the particulars BUT there is a pressure relief valve that
requires cleaning as it will stick and mess with oil pressure. Otherwise it
has to be the screen or the pump itself. As mentioned previously- A rule of
thumb when rebuilding an engine is to always replace the pump. IF the cam
bearings or mains have been mismeasured and not the correct size, then you
would also receive a low oil pressure reading. Did you plastiagauge the main
bearings??The cam bearing cary a large end of the ammount of pressure. When I
was young we had a 56 Chrysley New Yorker. I learned later, after my Dad
passed away the car had a Hemi engine. I guess thats why I lost control when I
BORROWED the car at 14 and stopmed it down- the local cops in WVa just
happened to drive over the hill to witness me spinning the tires and driving
all over the road. They took me to my Mother as opposed to jail. Long story to
make the point that when Mom had the oil changed our
 mechanic used to prime the oil pump with STP to get it to pick up and pump.
Dad was gone and the mechanic was a family friend- he told my Mother it was
time for another car- next was a Chrysler Newport- the 360 wasnt a Hemi. Good
luck Lauri. Maybe its just the screen with debris etc restricting
pressure.Someone correct me if Im wrong BUT I think the pressure reief vale is
built into the base of the oil filter housing and it screws out so you can
clean and inspect the spring and maybe a screen thats inside- maybe it is a
spring and a metering device- I know I remember someone having low oil
pressure and the relief vale being stuck was the reason why.
TonytheTiger


--- On Mon, 2/2/09, #auri <lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi> wrote:

> From: #auri <lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi>
> Subject: Re: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
> To: tom.hill at att.net, "'D W Spearing'" <kb9csw at juno.com>,
alpines at autox.team.net
> Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 9:58 AM
> After engine rebuild my oil pressure is quite low. I am
> pretty sure
> there is air in the tube from engine to gauge. I could fill
> it partly,
> and it got better.
> I am wondering if it is only that air or might there be
> problems with
> oil pump?
>
> Lauri Lehtinen
> journalist, engineer
> mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988
>
>
> -----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
> Ldhettdjd: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] Puolesta
> tom.hill at att.net
> Ldhetetty: 2. helmikuuta 2009 17:52
> Vastaanottaja: D W Spearing; alpines at autox.team.net
> Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
>
> Dave,
>
> Check this link
>
> http://www.team.net/www/rootes/sunbeam/alpine/mk1-5/techtips/prvalve.htm
> l
>
> tom hill
> -------------- Original message from "D W
> Spearing" <kb9csw at juno.com>:
> --------------
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From achd73 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 10:35:52 2009
From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:35:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
In-Reply-To: <020220091551.22096.49871696000025AF0000565022218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>
Message-ID: <835009.62709.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lauri- I read the last post first. Now I know I was right in the relief valve,its placement and the problems it causes. The drawing is very good as is the post. Obviously the new style regulates pressure- ANYONE- does the orginal do the same or just save the pump from creating so much pressure it saves the imput shaft by RELIEFING pressure- etc? 

Im rebuikding a 1725(they lost my ported head- so Im reporting another) long project because of the lost head and health problems slowing me down- not to mention the weather here in southern IL. and lack of heat in my shop.
TonytheTiger

From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 11:06:04 2009
From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:06:04 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
Message-ID: <21824285.1233597965155.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

>Someone please correct my faulty memory, but I seem to remember a cause of low
>oil pressure after an engine rebuild was the failure to replace the samshaft
>bearings.
>
>Jan Eyerman


Oh it can be much more than that.

Any of the white metal bearings will reduce oil pressure if the clearances are not to spec.

Additionally, there is an internal oiling pipe that pees oil on the cam chain rubbing block
that often is mis-assembled or downright missing that can cause low oil pressure.

More often than not, its the bearing clearances, NOT the pump thats at fault.

A messed up pressure relief valve will typically not develop sufficient oil pressure at any
RPM (since its dumping all the time), whereas bad clearances or very worn pump will yield low
oil pressure at low RPMs and will generate the required 40 to 50 at some higher RPM.
When this happens, the oil pressure relief is NOT the main culprit.


Jarrid Gross

From aballard at ix.netcom.com  Mon Feb  2 11:34:32 2009
From: aballard at ix.netcom.com (Allan Ballard)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:34:32 -0500
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
In-Reply-To: <21824285.1233597965155.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1LU3cr-0008IZ-Hw@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I think the oil pressure valves can mess up in different ways.

The one that came installed on my SIV (1725 engine)was an early style and it
stuck. I cleaned it and it stuck again.

That valve and also the base plate was changed for a later steel style valve
which worked fine for a while.

Now apparently it also sticks. Sometimes my oil pressure gauge sticks at
some reading or another, other times it goes to zero but it comes unstuck.

It is a NOS steel valve, "best" one offered for Alpines.

I guess it needs inspection for a burr.

Allan
http://home.netcom.com/~aballard/


-----Original Message-----
From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net]
On Behalf Of jarrid_gross at earthlink.net
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 1:06 PM
To: Jan Eyerman; alpines at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve

>Someone please correct my faulty memory, but I seem to remember a cause 
>of low oil pressure after an engine rebuild was the failure to replace 
>the samshaft bearings.
>
>Jan Eyerman


Oh it can be much more than that.

Any of the white metal bearings will reduce oil pressure if the clearances
are not to spec.

Additionally, there is an internal oiling pipe that pees oil on the cam
chain rubbing block that often is mis-assembled or downright missing that
can cause low oil pressure.

More often than not, its the bearing clearances, NOT the pump thats at
fault.

A messed up pressure relief valve will typically not develop sufficient oil
pressure at any RPM (since its dumping all the time), whereas bad clearances
or very worn pump will yield low oil pressure at low RPMs and will generate
the required 40 to 50 at some higher RPM.
When this happens, the oil pressure relief is NOT the main culprit.


Jarrid Gross
Alpines at autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

http://www.team.net/archive

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Mon Feb  2 12:05:18 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:05:18 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
In-Reply-To: <c0d.4853894f.36b88164@aol.com>
Message-ID: <EEC7B3127DC4421A905CB97D820EB284@lehtipuu224865>

The thing is, that gauge seems to act at it should, but pressure is too
low  as well at idle as with revs. It seems as it shows all time too
little pressure. I could fill the pipe halfways, and it got better
ratings. First it was about 2 bar too low, now only 1 bar. I can not
remember it exactly, but in my opinion it shows as relief valve works
ok, there is a sharp stop in pressure rising with cold oil, as if the
valve opens. But it all is too low. The gauge worked well before engine
swap, but then there were badly worn bearings and pistons. Engine had
then very low pressure when hot and idling.
We did measure the pump but  we had imperial blades (inches) and we
thought they were metric. So it is possible oil pump is also worn, tough
it did not show much worn.

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988

-----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
Ldhettdjd: JACranwell at aol.com [mailto:JACranwell at aol.com]
Ldhetetty: 2. helmikuuta 2009 19:04
Vastaanottaja: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi; tom.hill at att.net;
kb9csw at juno.com; alpines at autox.team.net
Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve

Lauri,

Assuming you have the correct tolerance between the bearings, and the
crank, then it is most probably the oil pump, unfortunately.

Personally, I always replace the oil pump, or at least check the
tolerances, as per the manual, when I rebuild.

However the good news is at least you can get to it with the engine in
place, sump off, which is more than you can do on most modern cars.

Other likely causes would be loose or cracked oil feeder to the rocker
shaft, or the bypass valve, as previously noted.

It may be worth trying another gauge, but they rarely fail.

Good luck,

Julian.

From philipreddy at fuse.net  Tue Feb  3 08:09:26 2009
From: philipreddy at fuse.net (philipreddy at fuse.net)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:09:26 -0500
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
Message-ID: <30001112.1233673766239.JavaMail.root@wmvirt5>

My series III has developed an over heating problem. I have owned the Alpine for 35 years and renew the antifreeze regularly and have never had this problem until this past year. There are no leaks, The radiator has been pressure and flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in top tank, with or without the  thermostat installed.

I am looking for suggestions on how to proceed from here.

Phil Reddy

From peter at wizardclassics.co.uk  Tue Feb  3 08:38:22 2009
From: peter at wizardclassics.co.uk (Peter Chadbund)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:38:22 -0000
Subject: [Alpines] [Norton AntiSpam]  Over Heating
References: <30001112.1233673766239.JavaMail.root@wmvirt5>
Message-ID: <4C7BA55D508F4F1F8C3A2B52FA165620@WIZARD1>

Have you replaced the radiator cap?
If so, I would be inclined to flush the whole system out - you probably have 
blockages in the engine block.
If you have access to a digital temperature gauge with a probe, get the 
engine "hot" then check around the block and head, for temperature 
high-spots. If there are major differences, this would indicate internal 
blockages.
Remove the thermostat. run engine up to operating temperature, remove 
radiator cap, open drain tap on engine block, put a hosepipe in the top of 
the rad, run engine, balance flow of water through hosepipe to compensate 
for water being lost through drain. Do that for at least 30 mins. Can be 
worth giving the engine a good run first, getting it nice and hot (watch out 
for steam and hot water!).
If all else fails remove all the core plugs and clean out the cooling 
channels any way you can (a piece of wire, water squirted from a washing up 
liquid bottle) then fit new core plugs.

Pete Chadbund
Buckingham, England
peter at wizardclassics.co.uk
www.wizardclassics.co.uk
Mark II Hillman Hunter GL
Series V Sunbeam Alpine
and previously many other Rootesmobiles

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <philipreddy at fuse.net>
To: <alpines at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:09 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [Alpines] Over Heating


> My series III has developed an over heating problem. I have owned the 
> Alpine for 35 years and renew the antifreeze regularly and have never had 
> this problem until this past year. There are no leaks, The radiator has 
> been pressure and flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in 
> top tank, with or without the  thermostat installed.
>
> I am looking for suggestions on how to proceed from here.
>
> Phil Reddy
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From achd73 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 08:47:51 2009
From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 07:47:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
In-Reply-To: <30001112.1233673766239.JavaMail.root@wmvirt5>
Message-ID: <718870.90998.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

There are no leaks, The radiator has been pressure and
> flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in top
> tank, with or without the  thermostat installed.


Phil
Have you checked compression? Usually when an engine overheats it is from the before mentioned problems. SO, if the water pump is pumping and the problem continuses after the thermostat is changed and you say the radiator is flowing(has it ever been rodded out?)- the heat has to be coming from the engine- usually a blown head gasket. When a head gasket blows one or two things happen. ONE- water gets into the oil or two- compression gets into the water. Since you arent losing water (antifreeze mixture) and if the gasket is blown then compression would have to be heating up the water. When you shut the engine off- Do you hear a gurgurling sound? Like the water is boiling inside the engine- does so until the temp drops down?? If not and a compression test shows the same pressure on all cylinders, I would start thibking about finding another gauge oand or sending unit. Have you used a heat gun( that measures temps) on the outside of the engine to know what
 the engine temp is ambient wise?
Im getting at if you have no other signs of a problem besides the gauge you need to prove to yourself the engine is hot. Does it boil over or bypass the radiator cap? Does the engine ping from it getting to hot to drive? IF NO to all questions- go make sure it is really hot and not just the gauge or sending unit showing hot. Good luck.
TtT


--- On Tue, 2/3/09, philipreddy at fuse.net <philipreddy at fuse.net> wrote:

> From: philipreddy at fuse.net <philipreddy at fuse.net>
> Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
> To: "alpines at autox.team.net" <alpines at autox.team.net>
> Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:09 AM
> My series III has developed an over heating problem. I have
> owned the Alpine for 35 years and renew the antifreeze
> regularly and have never had this problem until this past
> year. There are no leaks, The radiator has been pressure and
> flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in top
> tank, with or without the  thermostat installed.
> 
> I am looking for suggestions on how to proceed from here.
> 
> Phil Reddy
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
> 
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive

From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb  3 09:08:14 2009
From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:08:14 -0800
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
References: <718870.90998.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D0EC545165D7438AB835C84A1E0BD71B@owner33025ef87>

My #1 suggestion, especially when dealing with an iron block and aluminum head
is: change the head gasket. Combustion gases leaking from the chamber INTO the
coolant will send the temperature through the roof and you won't be leaking
except for what's turning to steam and escaping.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Tony Somebody
  To: alpines at autox.team.net ; philipreddy at fuse.net
  Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [Alpines] Over Heating


  There are no leaks, The radiator has been pressure and
  > flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in top
  > tank, with or without the  thermostat installed.


  Phil
  Have you checked compression? Usually when an engine overheats it is from
the before mentioned problems. SO, if the water pump is pumping and the
problem continuses after the thermostat is changed and you say the radiator is
flowing(has it ever been rodded out?)- the heat has to be coming from the
engine- usually a blown head gasket. When a head gasket blows one or two
things happen. ONE- water gets into the oil or two- compression gets into the
water. Since you arent losing water (antifreeze mixture) and if the gasket is
blown then compression would have to be heating up the water. When you shut
the engine off- Do you hear a gurgurling sound? Like the water is boiling
inside the engine- does so until the temp drops down?? If not and a
compression test shows the same pressure on all cylinders, I would start
thibking about finding another gauge oand or sending unit. Have you used a
heat gun( that measures temps) on the outside of the engine to know what
   the engine temp is ambient wise?
  Im getting at if you have no other signs of a problem besides the gauge you
need to prove to yourself the engine is hot. Does it boil over or bypass the
radiator cap? Does the engine ping from it getting to hot to drive? IF NO to
all questions- go make sure it is really hot and not just the gauge or sending
unit showing hot. Good luck.
  TtT


  --- On Tue, 2/3/09, philipreddy at fuse.net <philipreddy at fuse.net> wrote:

  > From: philipreddy at fuse.net <philipreddy at fuse.net>
  > Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
  > To: "alpines at autox.team.net" <alpines at autox.team.net>
  > Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:09 AM
  > My series III has developed an over heating problem. I have
  > owned the Alpine for 35 years and renew the antifreeze
  > regularly and have never had this problem until this past
  > year. There are no leaks, The radiator has been pressure and
  > flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in top
  > tank, with or without the  thermostat installed.
  >
  > I am looking for suggestions on how to proceed from here.
  >
  > Phil Reddy
  > _______________________________________________
  > Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
  >
  > Alpines at autox.team.net
  > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
  >
  > http://www.team.net/archive
  _______________________________________________
  Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

  Alpines at autox.team.net
  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

  http://www.team.net/archive

From tom.hill at att.net  Tue Feb  3 09:43:51 2009
From: tom.hill at att.net (tom.hill at att.net)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:43:51 +0000
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
In-Reply-To: <718870.90998.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <30001112.1233673766239.JavaMail.root@wmvirt5>
	<718870.90998.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <020320091643.22151.49887447000B1D4E0000568722243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>

If you remove the head, inspect the water passage area on the head closely.  The Alpine head is known for galvanic corrosion in this area.  If the head if sufficiently eroded, the head gasket won't seal.  When I removed my cylinder head for a rebuild, I found a buildup of crud in the passages.  After cleaning it out, the head gasket wouldn't seal anymore.

Also, regarding gauge and/or sending unit issues, the gauge gets power from the instrument power regulator under the dash.  If the regulator is getting "fritzy", it could goof up the gauge reading.

Good Luck,

Tom Hill
-------------- Original message from Tony Somebody <achd73 at yahoo.com>: -------------- 


> There are no leaks, The radiator has been pressure and 
> > flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in top 
> > tank, with or without the thermostat installed. 
> 
> 
> Phil Have you checked compression? Usually when an engine overheats it is from the before mentioned problems. SO, if the water pump is pumping and the problem continuses after the thermostat is changed and you say the radiator is flowing(has it ever been rodded out?)- the heat has to be coming from the engine- usually a blown head gasket. When a head gasket blows one or two things happen. ONE- water gets into the oil or two- compression gets into the water. Since you arent losing water (antifreeze mixture) and if the gasket is blown then compression would have to be heating up the water. When you shut the engine off- Do you hear a gurgurling sound? Like the water is boiling inside the engine- does so until the temp drops down?? If not and a compression test shows 
> the same pressure on all cylinders, I would start thibking about finding another 
> gauge oand or sending unit. Have you used a heat gun( that measures temps) on 
> the outside of the engine to know what 
> the engine temp is ambient wise? 
> Im getting at if you have no other signs of a problem besides the gauge you need 
> to prove to yourself the engine is hot. Does it boil over or bypass the radiator 
> cap? Does the engine ping from it getting to hot to drive? IF NO to all 
> questions- go make sure it is really hot and not just the gauge or sending unit 
> showing hot. Good luck. 
> TtT 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 2/3/09, philipreddy at fuse.net wrote: 
> 
> > From: philipreddy at fuse.net 
> > Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating 
> > To: "alpines at autox.team.net" 
> > Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 9:09 AM 
> > My series III has developed an over heating problem. I have 
> > owned the Alpine for 35 years and renew the antifreeze 
> > regularly and have never had this problem until this past 
> > year. There are no leaks, The radiator has been pressure and 
> > flow tested OK,the water pump checks OK, good flow in top 
> > tank, with or without the thermostat installed. 
> > 
> > I am looking for suggestions on how to proceed from here. 
> > 
> > Phil Reddy 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> > 
> > Alpines at autox.team.net 
> > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines 
> > 
> > http://www.team.net/archive 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Alpines at autox.team.net 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines 
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From TIGEROOTES at aol.com  Tue Feb  3 10:37:05 2009
From: TIGEROOTES at aol.com (TIGEROOTES at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:37:05 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
Message-ID: <ce3.48836eb7.36b9dac1@aol.com>

Another possibility is if you have an aftermarket aluminum water pump.  Some 
of them use plastic impellers and I have seen them release from the drivin 
shaft, so they pump little if any water.
Jim Leach    Pacific Tiger Club     Seattle


**************
Stay up to date on 
the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. 
(http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022)

From JACranwell at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 03:47:47 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:47:47 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
Message-ID: <c4f.404bcc79.36bacc53@aol.com>

>From experience, I'd agree with Tom that this should be checked.

I had an apparent overheating issue on my SV, and tried everything, until I 
got to the regulator, which was faulty, and causing the reading to be over 100 
C. Changing the regulator brought it back down to the normal reading, so it 
wasn't overheating at all.

Certainly worth investing a few cents in a regulator before trying any of the 
messier and expensive remedies.

Julian.

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Wed Feb  4 05:23:39 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:23:39 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
In-Reply-To: <c4f.404bcc79.36bacc53@aol.com>
Message-ID: <89AEB3E8743F40D48E463D3FEB218F23@lehtipuu224865>

My gas and heat gauges have given too low rates for years. Might it be
the regulator??!!

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988

From JACranwell at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 08:58:40 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:58:40 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
Message-ID: <bf5.4f63d8ca.36bb1530@aol.com>

Lauri,

It's entirely possible, if both are reading low. That's just what happened to 
me, although I wasn't too worried about the fuel gauge, but now it reads 
perfectly across from range. Mind you it fluctuates quite a bit when cornering 
hard, such as around Le Mans circuit, but that's just the gas moving around 
between the tanks.

Julian.

From tom.hill at att.net  Wed Feb  4 09:52:33 2009
From: tom.hill at att.net (tom.hill at att.net)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:52:33 +0000
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
In-Reply-To: <89AEB3E8743F40D48E463D3FEB218F23@lehtipuu224865>
References: <c4f.404bcc79.36bacc53@aol.com>
	<89AEB3E8743F40D48E463D3FEB218F23@lehtipuu224865>
Message-ID: <020420091652.27842.4989C7D1000A078800006CC222230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>

Lauri,

Here is a link to a plan for a solid state voltage stabilizer.  It has the
advantage of being dual channel and adjustable.  I built one for my car and it
works pretty well.

tom hill

http://www.tigersunited.com/techtips/cb-reg/reg.asp
-------------- Original message from B#auri <lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi>:
--------------


> My gas and heat gauges have given too low rates for years. Might it be
> the regulator??!!
>
> Lauri Lehtinen
> journalist, engineer
> mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Wed Feb  4 14:47:48 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 23:47:48 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
In-Reply-To: <bf5.4f63d8ca.36bb1530@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1C83F829458C4AE39385F601D822F81A@lehtipuu224865>

Dear folks,
I never knew that there is a regulator.
Now I have all my Sunbeam workshop books in my childhood home
(neighbours: 2  bobcats (lynx lynx)  about 6 - 8 wolves/varg (canis
lupus), 1 - 3 brown bears (Ursus arctos) and one family of great berg
owl (Bubo Bubo ) the last one living some weeks inside of our barn), I
have to wait for spring to get my books back again.

You might understand me when having some rough muzzlelowders at hand...

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988


-----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
Ldhettdjd: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] Puolesta JACranwell at aol.com
Ldhetetty: 4. helmikuuta 2009 17:59
Vastaanottaja: alpines at autox.team.net
Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Over Heating

Lauri,

It's entirely possible, if both are reading low. That's just what
happened to
me, although I wasn't too worried about the fuel gauge, but now it reads

perfectly across from range. Mind you it fluctuates quite a bit when
cornering
hard, such as around Le Mans circuit, but that's just the gas moving
around
between the tanks.

Julian.
Alpines at autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

http://www.team.net/archive

From jandkstone99 at msn.com  Wed Feb  4 20:30:57 2009
From: jandkstone99 at msn.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 21:30:57 -0600
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
In-Reply-To: <bf5.4f63d8ca.36bb1530@aol.com>
References: <bf5.4f63d8ca.36bb1530@aol.com>
Message-ID: <COL110-W65081ECD1816EDB5141253CCC00@phx.gbl>

Don't forget about the temperature sender.  I had an overheating problem that
I couldn't track down, until I tried a new sender.  The old one was just
reading high.

> From: JACranwell at aol.com
> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:58:40 -0500
> To: alpines at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Alpines] Over Heating
>
> Lauri,
>
> It's entirely possible, if both are reading low. That's just what happened
to
> me, although I wasn't too worried about the fuel gauge, but now it reads
> perfectly across from range. Mind you it fluctuates quite a bit when
cornering
> hard, such as around Le Mans circuit, but that's just the gas moving around
> between the tanks.
>
> Julian.
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009

From JACranwell at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 03:06:34 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:06:34 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
Message-ID: <d60.41dd9513.36bc142a@aol.com>

Lauri,

The voltage regulator is under the dash, around the centre. It's rectangular, 
about 4cm x 2 cm x 2 cm.

Julian.

From peter at wizardclassics.co.uk  Thu Feb  5 03:11:12 2009
From: peter at wizardclassics.co.uk (Peter Chadbund)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:11:12 -0000
Subject: [Alpines] Over Heating
References: <1C83F829458C4AE39385F601D822F81A@lehtipuu224865>
Message-ID: <D982732634724BDA84FED7DBBFDF3FAA@WIZARD1>

The series I and II did not use a voltage stabiliser (regulator) - they used 
a two-coil type of instrument, one coil being mounted on the indicating 
needle, the other providing the magnetic field in which that first coil 
moves. Thus any change in supply voltage is compensated by both coils being 
affected. Note that with this type of instrument it is absolutely essential 
that the metal case of the instrument is soundly electrically connected to 
chassis as this provides one of the electrical connections to the field 
coil. This type of device can easily be identified by the wire supplying the 
gauges being plain green. Later models used a very primitive voltage 
stabiliser using a bimetallic strip with a heating coil wound around it, 
giving a nominal average output of 10 volts. The bimetallic strip has 
contacts which open and close, giving a "pulsed voltage output". The 
instruments used with this regulator use a bimetallic strip with a coil 
around it. The current passing through the coil governs the twisting of the 
bimetallic strip, to which the indicating needle is fixed. The wire 
connecting the output of the voltage stabiliser to the instruments should be 
green with a black tracer.
Pete Chadbund
Buckingham, England
peter at wizardclassics.co.uk
www.wizardclassics.co.uk
Mark II Hillman Hunter GL
Series V Sunbeam Alpine
and previously many other Rootesmobiles

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "#auri" <lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi>
To: <JACranwell at aol.com>; <alpines at autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Alpines] Over Heating


> Dear folks,
> I never knew that there is a regulator.
> Now I have all my Sunbeam workshop books in my childhood home
> (neighbours: 2  bobcats (lynx lynx)  about 6 - 8 wolves/varg (canis
> lupus), 1 - 3 brown bears (Ursus arctos) and one family of great berg
> owl (Bubo Bubo ) the last one living some weeks inside of our barn), I
> have to wait for spring to get my books back again.
>
> You might understand me when having some rough muzzlelowders at hand...
>
> Lauri Lehtinen
> journalist, engineer
> mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988
>
>
> -----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
> Ldhettdjd: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net
> [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] Puolesta JACranwell at aol.com
> Ldhetetty: 4. helmikuuta 2009 17:59
> Vastaanottaja: alpines at autox.team.net
> Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Over Heating
>
> Lauri,
>
> It's entirely possible, if both are reading low. That's just what
> happened to
> me, although I wasn't too worried about the fuel gauge, but now it reads
>
> perfectly across from range. Mind you it fluctuates quite a bit when
> cornering
> hard, such as around Le Mans circuit, but that's just the gas moving
> around
> between the tanks.
>
> Julian.
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
> http://www.team.net/archive
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From philipreddy at fuse.net  Thu Feb  5 08:44:04 2009
From: philipreddy at fuse.net (philipreddy at fuse.net)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:44:04 -0500
Subject: [Alpines] S III OVER HEADING
Message-ID: <3005021.1233848644258.JavaMail.root@wmvirt11>

Thanks to all for the suggestions/ solutions to my 2/3/09 e mail.
The coolant boils over. I will start with the head removal. If it is not clogged I will proceed from there.

Phil

From JACranwell at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 08:52:02 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:52:02 EST
Subject: [Alpines] S III OVER HEADING
Message-ID: <d4b.47c53cf6.36bc6522@aol.com>

Phil,

I would try 2 things before you go the expense and time of lifting the head.

1. Remove the thermostat pro-tem, and try it.

2. Remove the water pump, to check the impeller is still there.

If the above are OK, it probably is the head, or the head/block full of many 
years of gunge.

Julian.

From kb9csw at juno.com  Thu Feb  5 09:09:46 2009
From: kb9csw at juno.com (D W Spearing)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:09:46 GMT
Subject: [Alpines] Oil pressure regulator valve
Message-ID: <20090205.160946.11243.0@webmail21.vgs.untd.com>

Hi,

Thanks to all who responded to my request for the article about modifying the
oil pressure valve.

Dave
---
73
DE DAVE KB9CSW
David Wm Spearing
kb9csw at juno.com

____________________________________________________________
Free quote and debt consolidation information.  Click Here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2O7E3WYyYPkw1uJ7CZSvaUCoKUA
9gtMUC2CtUfJe7iFBmcp/

From gstrom99 at joimail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:38:54 2009
From: gstrom99 at joimail.com (Gary)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:38:54 -0600
Subject: [Alpines] S III OVER HEADING
References: <3005021.1233848644258.JavaMail.root@wmvirt11>
Message-ID: <23ACE27348264CCCB0FF66492083C3A7@RacerX>

I might've missed this as an earlier suggestion, but you might want to check 
the water pump and make sure the impeller didn't come loose from the 
shaft...  ?

Gary

From TIGEROOTES at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 06:11:09 2009
From: TIGEROOTES at aol.com (TIGEROOTES at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:11:09 EST
Subject: [Alpines] S III OVER HEADING
Message-ID: <ce0.42fe7d59.36bd90ed@aol.com>

Gary, et al:
       The loose water pump impeller posibility was my suggestion as I've 
seen it happen several times.
Jim Leach    Pacific Tiger Club     Seattle


**************
Stay up to date on 
the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. 
(http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000022)

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Mon Feb  9 12:18:31 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 21:18:31 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] How reliable is an overdrive unit?
In-Reply-To: <ce0.42fe7d59.36bd90ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1B29C77EDF054758A0DF18D6AD6710E0@lehtipuu224865>

Hi, folks,
I bought an overdrive gearbox from ebay. It is from a later Sceptre, so
I have to change primary shaft from my old box.
When looking pictures from my workshop book, I am quite reluctant to
take all pieces apart. 
Is there a way to examine overdrive and gearbox without total overhaul?
I am very happy if I must not remove mainshaft or baulking rings etc.

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988

From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 12:27:01 2009
From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:27:01 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Alpines] How reliable is an overdrive unit?
Message-ID: <9347028.1234207621852.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Lauri,

In my experience even oil condition is not a good indicator for the condition of the
overdrive, (although oil with brass specks is a very bad sign).

Basically to know if the overdrive hasnt been abused, you have to pull the OD unit apart
and inspect the sun, planets and anulous gear faces, and also the planet bearings since
this is a common sign of failure.  Look also for heat discoloration of the planet carrier
this indicates the bearings have been very hot before.

HTH

Jarrid Gross

From achd73 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 23:36:15 2009
From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:36:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Alpines] How reliable is an overdrive unit?
Message-ID: <831122.56670.qm@web30406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lauri- I cant help with your inspection or give directions in changing the
main shafts etc BUT I have a S5 with OD and I love it. The car flys in
comparison to my S5 w/out OD. Of course it is geared a lot higher- Im
wondering how much gas milage would improve with a stock S5 rearend as the OD
unit helps tranny wise but not rear end wise.
 
Just my thoughts.
TonytheTiger

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, jarrid_gross at earthlink.net <jarrid_gross at earthlink.net>
wrote:


From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net <jarrid_gross at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Alpines] How reliable is an overdrive unit?
To: "#auri" <lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi>, alpines at autox.team.net
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:27 PM


Lauri,

In my experience even oil condition is not a good indicator for the condition
of the
overdrive, (although oil with brass specks is a very bad sign).

Basically to know if the overdrive hasnt been abused, you have to pull the OD
unit apart
and inspect the sun, planets and anulous gear faces, and also the planet
bearings since
this is a common sign of failure.  Look also for heat discoloration of the
planet carrier
this indicates the bearings have been very hot before.

HTH

Jarrid Gross
Alpines at autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

http://www.team.net/archive

From wiencek at anl.gov  Tue Feb 10 09:28:05 2009
From: wiencek at anl.gov (Wiencek, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:28:05 -0600
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder boxer
 engine
Message-ID: <BC9AFCE99A1EB24DBFCD6FDA79DB61B14C062B@NE-EXCH.ne.anl.gov>

A little off topic.  How can a supercharged engine be called "naturally
aspirated"?

Thank.

Tom

From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 09:43:28 2009
From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:43:28 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
Message-ID: <14979910.1234284208806.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Tom,

Obviously it could not, however 435 for a 3.3 liter 6cyl Porsche in N/A form
is very doable.

Are you sure the engine is supercharged, Ive never seen a supercharged Porsche.
Many turbo engines, but never supercharged.

Jarrid Gross

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Wiencek, Thomas" <wiencek at anl.gov>
>Sent: Feb 10, 2009 8:28 AM
>To: alpines at autox.team.net
>Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder boxer engine
>
>A little off topic.  How can a supercharged engine be called "naturally
>aspirated"?
>
>T

From drmayf at mayfco.com  Tue Feb 10 10:09:42 2009
From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 09:09:42 -0800
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
In-Reply-To: <BC9AFCE99A1EB24DBFCD6FDA79DB61B14C062B@NE-EXCH.ne.anl.gov>
References: <BC9AFCE99A1EB24DBFCD6FDA79DB61B14C062B@NE-EXCH.ne.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <4991B4D6.6040701@mayfco.com>

Can't. Not in any world where power adders are used.  Superchargers, 
turbos, nitrous all are power adders. NA is plain old compression only...

mayf
Wiencek, Thomas wrote:

>A little off topic.  How can a supercharged engine be called "naturally
>aspirated"?
>
>Thank.
>
>Tom
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Alpines at autox.team.net
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From bmounce at rcn.com  Tue Feb 10 10:32:13 2009
From: bmounce at rcn.com (Bill Mounce)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:32:13 -0500
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
In-Reply-To: <BC9AFCE99A1EB24DBFCD6FDA79DB61B14C062B@NE-EXCH.ne.anl.gov>
References: <BC9AFCE99A1EB24DBFCD6FDA79DB61B14C062B@NE-EXCH.ne.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <02bb01c98ba5$831d73e0$89585ba0$@com>

Never open your mouth wide while doing 85 on a motorcycle??

I have!  (And before kids started piercing their tongues, I did it with a
bee!)

Bill Mounce
Easton, PA

-----Original Message-----
From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net]
On Behalf Of Wiencek, Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:28 AM
To: alpines at autox.team.net
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder boxer
engine

A little off topic.  How can a supercharged engine be called "naturally
aspirated"?

Thank.

Tom
Alpines at autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

http://www.team.net/archive

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Tue Feb 10 15:02:33 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:02:33 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] Off topic - bees in mouth
In-Reply-To: <02bb01c98ba5$831d73e0$89585ba0$@com>
Message-ID: <D74F9FD1E5704803B4D318FA4EA928B1@lehtipuu224865>

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988


-----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
Ldhettdjd: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net
[mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] Puolesta Bill Mounce
Ldhetetty: 10. helmikuuta 2009 19:32
At eighties, my friend got a bee in his mouth when riding a Triumph
Daytona. "What did you  do", I asked?
"What could I? I bite!"

During our first Europe tour on our 1960 AJS with my girlfriend
(nowadays wife) we drove through a blooming field in Denmark. I had
burned my nose and had herpes in my lip. Got in few seconds three bee
hits, 2 to the herpes and one to my nose.

Lauri

Vastaanottaja: 'Wiencek, Thomas'; alpines at autox.team.net
Aihe: Re: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
boxer engine

Never open your mouth wide while doing 85 on a motorcycle??

I have!  (And before kids started piercing their tongues, I did it with
a
bee!)

From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 10 19:02:15 2009
From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:02:15 -0800
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
References: <14979910.1234284208806.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <50CB10AA67FB42ED9BE130E60B1AE851@owner33025ef87>

Jarrid,
I recall about ten years ago a company making an aftermarket supercharger for
the C..S. injected 911's. If anybosy is really interested in researching it
they might look in old issues of EXCELLENCE magazine from 10-15 years ago..
    Carl
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net
  To: Wiencek,Thomas ; alpines at autox.team.net
  Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
boxer engine


  Tom,

  Obviously it could not, however 435 for a 3.3 liter 6cyl Porsche in N/A
form
  is very doable.

  Are you sure the engine is supercharged, Ive never seen a supercharged
Porsche.
  Many turbo engines, but never supercharged.

  Jarrid Gross

  -----Original Message-----
  >From: "Wiencek, Thomas" <wiencek at anl.gov>
  >Sent: Feb 10, 2009 8:28 AM
  >To: alpines at autox.team.net
  >Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
boxer engine
  >
  >A little off topic.  How can a supercharged engine be called "naturally
  >aspirated"?
  >
  >T
  _______________________________________________
  Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

  Alpines at autox.team.net
  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

  http://www.team.net/archive

From wiencek at anl.gov  Wed Feb 11 07:54:24 2009
From: wiencek at anl.gov (Wiencek, Thomas)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:54:24 -0600
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
In-Reply-To: <50CB10AA67FB42ED9BE130E60B1AE851@owner33025ef87>
References: <14979910.1234284208806.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<50CB10AA67FB42ED9BE130E60B1AE851@owner33025ef87>
Message-ID: <BC9AFCE99A1EB24DBFCD6FDA79DB61B14C0634@NE-EXCH.ne.anl.gov>

What I am really interested in is more information about this engine.
Getting 1.2 HP per liter on a naturally aspirated engine is amazing.  I
did find that the HP is rated at 7600 RPM which helps but there must be
some interesting technologies on this engine.  Even where to find
information on the 415 HP earlier engine would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom





________________________________

From: Carl McLelland [mailto:carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:02 PM
To: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net; Wiencek, Thomas; alpines at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated
six-cylinder boxer engine



Jarrid,

I recall about ten years ago a company making an aftermarket
supercharger for the C..S. injected 911's. If anybosy is really
interested in researching it they might look in old issues of EXCELLENCE
magazine from 10-15 years ago..

    Carl

	----- Original Message -----

	From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net

	To: Wiencek,Thomas <mailto:wiencek at anl.gov>  ;
alpines at autox.team.net

	Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:43 AM

	Subject: Re: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated
six-cylinder boxer engine



	Tom,

	Obviously it could not, however 435 for a 3.3 liter 6cyl Porsche
in N/A form
	is very doable.

	Are you sure the engine is supercharged, Ive never seen a
supercharged Porsche.
	Many turbo engines, but never supercharged.

	Jarrid Gross

	-----Original Message-----
	>From: "Wiencek, Thomas" <wiencek at anl.gov>
	>Sent: Feb 10, 2009 8:28 AM
	>To: alpines at autox.team.net
	>Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated
six-cylinder boxer engine
	>
	>A little off topic.  How can a supercharged engine be called
"naturally
	>aspirated"?
	>
	>T
	_______________________________________________
	Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html

	Alpines at autox.team.net
	http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

	http://www.team.net/archive

From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 11 08:55:41 2009
From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 07:55:41 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
Message-ID: <22221021.1234367741436.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

   Tom,
   1.2hp per liter is not such a big thing anymore.
   You  can take a very built rootes 1725 and make close to 100 bhp/liter
   (175hp).
   The new Acura RSX makes a mfgr specified 120 bhp/liter in stock form.
   http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/roadtests/0107scc_acura_rsx_type_s
   /index.html
   There are guys out there building 11k motors in the 150+ bhp/liter.
   Basically  N/A  engines  are  limited  to power output proportional to
   displacement.
   To get higher HP numbers, you need to do one of two things (or both).
   1)  Make  more  torque  at  a given RPM,  which is done typically with
   compression.
   2) Make the same or similar torque, but at higher RPMs.
   Porsche has employed interesting ways to make power, one they were one
   of the first
   to  use  tuned  induction  systems,  the  other is they have very free
   flowing heads and ports.
   When  cammed  to  produce  power  in  the  8000+  RPM  realm,  hitting
   120bh/liter is pretty easy.
   Reliability is the main consideration atbhose power levels.
   Find out the model and year, or at least the displacement and I'll see
   if I cant find you
   some data on the engine.
   Jarrid

     -----Original Message-----
     From: "Wiencek, Thomas"
     Sent: Feb 11, 2009 6:54 AM
     To:      Carl      McLelland      ,     jarrid_gross at earthlink.net,
     alpines at autox.team.net
     Subject:  RE:  [Alpines]  435  HP  911  Porsche naturally aspirated
     six-cylinder boxer engine

   What  I am really interested in is more information about this engine.
     Getting 1.2 HP per liter on a naturally aspirated engine is amazing.
    I  did  find  that  the HP is rated at 7600 RPM which helps but there
   must  be  some interesting technologies on this engine.  Even where to
   find information on the 415 HP earlier engine would be appreciated.

   Thanks.

   Tom

From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net  Wed Feb 11 09:29:04 2009
From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:29:04 -0800
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
References: <22221021.1234367741436.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5C49C0EC66AC4E12B89854A3CCD52092@owner33025ef87>

Jarred et al,
Attached is a scan from page 120 of the June, 1999 issue of EXCELLENCE
magazine. This is the ad for supercharging the 911 engine. The ad speaks for
itself. I have no idea if they are still produced, etc, since I've been away
from Porsches for ten years now..



I think of supercharging as 'forcing' the fuel/air mixture into the combustion
chamber rather than 'improving' the means by which it flows. Just as power is
increased with higher compression, more efficient cam(s) dependant upon the
tuners desire, improved induction and exhaust, etc; turbocharging and
supercharging achieve those results by 'stuffing' the combustion chamber with
more material to burn...

As for achieving tremendous power/engine size ratio's, just look at the 750
horsepower developed in a normally aspirated 2.7 liter formula 1 engine.... Of
course, that's at 19,000rpm: hardly suitable for the daily commute to work..
    Carl
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net
  To: Wiencek,Thomas ; Carl McLelland ; alpines at autox.team.net
  Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:55 AM
  Subject: RE: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
boxer engine


  Tom,

  1.2hp per liter is not such a big thing anymore.

  You can take a very built rootes 1725 and make close to 100 bhp/liter
(175hp).

  The new Acura RSX makes a mfgr specified 120 bhp/liter in stock form.
  http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/roadtests/0107scc_acura_rsx_type_s/index.
html
  There are guys out there building 11k motors in the 150+ bhp/liter.

  Basically N/A engines are limited to power output proportional to
displacement.
  To get higher HP numbers, you need to do one of two things (or both).
  1) Make more torque at a given RPM,  which is done typically with
compression.
  2) Make the same or similar torque, but at higher RPMs.

  Porsche has employed interesting ways to make power, one they were one of
the first
  to use tuned induction systems, the other is they have very free flowing
heads and ports.
  When cammed to produce power in the 8000+ RPM realm, hitting 120bh/liter is
pretty easy.
  Reliability is the main consideration atbhose power levels.

  Find out the model and year, or at least the displacement and I'll see if I
cant find you
  some data on the engine.


  Jarrid



    -----Original Message-----
    From: "Wiencek, Thomas"
    Sent: Feb 11, 2009 6:54 AM
    To: Carl McLelland , jarrid_gross at earthlink.net, alpines at autox.team.net
    Subject: RE: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
boxer engine


    What I am really interested in is more information about this engine.
Getting 1.2 HP per liter on a naturally aspirated engine is amazing.  I did
find that the HP is rated at 7600 RPM which helps but there must be some
interesting technologies on this engine.  Even where to find information on
the 415 HP earlier engine would be appreciated.

    Thanks.

    Tom

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Porsche Supercharger-2.JPG]

From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 11 09:39:25 2009
From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:39:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Alpines] 435 HP 911 Porsche naturally aspirated six-cylinder
 boxer engine
Message-ID: <14825163.1234370366337.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

   Carl,
   In  the aftermarket, there is almost no limit ot the crazy impractical
   things available or for sale.
   Porsche  themselves  have  not  offered  a  supercharger  to  any  911
   derivative and for good reason.
   They  know that superchargers are a waste of engergy at any other time
   than full boost.
   Porsche has always employed turbo chargers, which offer a much greater
   efficiency than
   mechanical superchargers, and better mileage all things the same.
   If  you  want to talk serious power in the aftermarket, I have a buddy
   that has a business supplying
   high performance parts for the VW/AUDI/Porsche market.
   He has a Audi 4wd with a 2.3 liter 5 cyl engine.  This engine produces
   over 1000 crank horsepower,
   over  800  wheel  horsepower to 4 wheels.  Thats over 400hp/liter, but
   then again thats with a seriously
   large turbo.
   Jarrid

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Wed Feb 25 03:45:51 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?us-ascii?Q?=3Fauri_Lehtinen?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:45:51 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <5C49C0EC66AC4E12B89854A3CCD52092@owner33025ef87>
Message-ID: <JIEHJNICEKJKBLBKANPCKENDCOAA.lehtinen.lauri@kolumbus.fi>

Hello, folks,
has anyone a photo of a Holbay manifold for dual webers?
Is it bent so that carbs rise a bit higher?
And how brake master cylinder is arranged?

Lauri

?auri Lehtinen
toimittaja, insinoori
Asemapaallikonkatu 12B
Helsinki, Finland 
+358 (0) 400 851988






Spyware Doctor-ohjelma on tarkistanut sdhkvpostiviestit (6.0.0.386)
Tietokantaversio: 5.11840
http://www.pctools.com/fi/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

From JACranwell at aol.com  Wed Feb 25 05:34:58 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 07:34:58 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
Message-ID: <d4c.3946abb5.36d694f2@aol.com>

Lauri,

I'm assuming your car is left-hand drive, as is mine, originating from 
Belgium.

Some carb arrangements do not work for LD cars. I had to make a few 
modifications to mine just to get the twin Stromberg manifold to fit.

I don't have a shot of the manifold, I'm afraid, but I'm sure someone out 
there must have one.

Julian.

From mrtebo at shaw.ca  Wed Feb 25 06:42:59 2009
From: mrtebo at shaw.ca (Mary and Ron Tebo)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 06:42:59 -0700
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <JIEHJNICEKJKBLBKANPCKENDCOAA.lehtinen.lauri@kolumbus.fi>
References: <JIEHJNICEKJKBLBKANPCKENDCOAA.lehtinen.lauri@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <49A54AE3.7090200@shaw.ca>

Lauri:

Here is a picture from my archive. I usually am careful to note the 
source, but I slipped up this time. Since I can't send it on the list, I 
will send it offlist to anyone else that wants it.

Ron Tebo

?auri Lehtinen wrote:
> Hello, folks,
> has anyone a photo of a Holbay manifold for dual webers?
> Is it bent so that carbs rise a bit higher?
> And how brake master cylinder is arranged?
>
> Lauri
>
> ?auri Lehtinen
> toimittaja, insinoori
> Asemapaallikonkatu 12B
> Helsinki, Finland 
> +358 (0) 400 851988
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Spyware Doctor-ohjelma on tarkistanut sdhkvpostiviestit (6.0.0.386)
> Tietokantaversio: 5.11840
> http://www.pctools.com/fi/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From tom.hill at att.net  Wed Feb 25 07:44:07 2009
From: tom.hill at att.net (tom.hill at att.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:44:07 +0000
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <JIEHJNICEKJKBLBKANPCKENDCOAA.lehtinen.lauri@kolumbus.fi>
References: <5C49C0EC66AC4E12B89854A3CCD52092@owner33025ef87>
	<JIEHJNICEKJKBLBKANPCKENDCOAA.lehtinen.lauri@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <022520091444.16704.49A55937000B819E0000414022230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>

Hi Lauri,

Since the Holbay manifold was used on the Arrow body Alpine, the carbs will actually point downward when installed on a Series Alpine.  It has straight runners and, on a lefthand drive Alpine, it difficult to use because of the brake master cylinder.  I have one that was cut and rewelded to provide a 5 deg upward angle for the carbs.  I was using a Wilwood master cylinder and it barely fit.  I removed and reinstalled the engine and it would no longer fit.  The real interference point was the steering box.  I made some spacers to go under the motor and transmission mounts to lift the engine slightly and it still wouldn't fit.  I ended up getting the Redline manifold intended for the Series Alpine and having the intake runners welded up to match the Holbay head.

You can see some pictures of when it did fit at  http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html

Tom Hill
-------------- Original message from ?auri Lehtinen <lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi>: -------------- 


> Hello, folks, 
> has anyone a photo of a Holbay manifold for dual webers? 
> Is it bent so that carbs rise a bit higher? 
> And how brake master cylinder is arranged? 
> 
> Lauri 
> 
> ?auri Lehtinen 
> toimittaja, insinoori 
> Asemapaallikonkatu 12B 
> Helsinki, Finland 
> +358 (0) 400 851988 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spyware Doctor-ohjelma on tarkistanut sdhkvpostiviestit (6.0.0.386) 
> Tietokantaversio: 5.11840 
> http://www.pctools.com/fi/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> 
> Alpines at autox.team.net 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines 
> 
> http://www.team.net/archive 

From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi  Wed Feb 25 08:26:52 2009
From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:26:52 +0200
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <022520091444.16704.49A55937000B819E0000414022230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>
Message-ID: <DF3BC51539224994B8A5145132B82BBD@lehtipuu224865>

I am quite sure there was a Holbay manifold for Series Alpines before
H120 was introduced.
Ron Tebo sent me a photo of such.
It seems to me that it is curved so that carbs rise upwards over the
steering box.

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988

-----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
Ldhettdjd: tom.hill at att.net [mailto:tom.hill at att.net]
Ldhetetty: 25. helmikuuta 2009 16:44
Vastaanottaja: ?auri Lehtinen; alpines at autox.team.net
Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Dual webers

Hi Lauri,

Since the Holbay manifold was used on the Arrow body Alpine, the carbs
will actually point downward when installed on a Series Alpine.  It has
straight runners and, on a lefthand drive Alpine, it difficult to use
because of the brake master cylinder.  I have one that was cut and
rewelded to provide a 5 deg upward angle for the carbs.  I was using a
Wilwood master cylinder and it barely fit.  I removed and reinstalled
the engine and it would no longer fit.  The real interference point was
the steering box.  I made some spacers to go under the motor and
transmission mounts to lift the engine slightly and it still wouldn't
fit.  I ended up getting the Redline manifold intended for the Series
Alpine and having the intake runners welded up to match the Holbay head.

You can see some pictures of when it did fit at
<http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html>
http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html
 <http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html>
 <http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html> Tom Hill
 <http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html>

From tom.hill at att.net  Wed Feb 25 09:12:48 2009
From: tom.hill at att.net (tom.hill at att.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:12:48 +0000
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <DF3BC51539224994B8A5145132B82BBD@lehtipuu224865>
References: <022520091444.16704.49A55937000B819E0000414022230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>
	<DF3BC51539224994B8A5145132B82BBD@lehtipuu224865>
Message-ID: <022520091612.15086.49A56E0000037A8F00003AEE22230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>

Lauri,

I have done a good bit of research on the Holbay stuff and haven't ever seen a
Holbay branded manifold for the Series Alpine.  The Holbay head with the
smaller intake ports was developed for the H120.  So if a Holbay manifold does
exist for the Series Alpine, it wouldn't have the smaller intake ports that
align with the H120 head.  This all assumes you are looking for a manifold to
use with a Holbay head.  If not, the Redline manifold would work nicely with
on a standard Alpine head.  There is one up for auction on ebay now (with a
picture)  Item number 150328269296.

Tom
 -------------- Original message from B#auri <lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi>:
--------------


I am quite sure there was a Holbay manifold for Series Alpines before H120 was
introduced.
Ron Tebo sent me a photo of such.
It seems to me that it is curved so that carbs rise upwards over the steering
box.

Lauri Lehtinen
journalist, engineer
mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988

-----AlkuperC$inen viesti-----
LC$hettC$jC$: tom.hill at att.net [mailto:tom.hill at att.net]
LC$hetetty: 25. helmikuuta 2009 16:44
Vastaanottaja: ?auri Lehtinen; alpines at autox.team.net
Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Dual webers

Hi Lauri,

Since the Holbay manifold was used on the Arrow body Alpine, the carbs will
actually point downward when installed on a Series Alpine.  It has straight
runners and, on a lefthand drive Alpine, it difficult to use because of the
brake master cylinder.  I have one that was cut and rewelded to provide a 5
deg upward angle for the carbs.  I was using a Wilwood master cylinder and it
barely fit.  I removed and reinstalled the engine and it would no longer fit.
The real interference point was the steering box.  I made some spacers to go
under the motor and transmission mounts to lift the engine slightly and it
still wouldn't fit.  I ended up getting the Redline manifold intended for the
Series Alpine and having the intake runners welded up to match the Holbay
head.

You can see some pictures of when it did fit at
http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html

Tom Hill

From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 25 09:18:08 2009
From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:18:08 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
Message-ID: <10695413.1235578688689.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Lauri,

Yes this is true, there were several, the most notable was the hartwell manifold.

The new one available from australia (someone will have to provide that source)
is setup with gooseneck runners, which avoids many of the normal pitfalls on LHD cars.

Since you have a RHD car (I presume), then just about any vertical app weber intake
should fit the bill, the one I use is now available from Pierce manifolds in California.
Its the one formerly made by TWM "L-0077".


HTH


Jarrid Gross
1725 with twin DCOE 45s.




>
>I am quite sure there was a Holbay manifold for Series Alpines before
>H120 was introduced.
>Ron Tebo sent me a photo of such.
>It seems to me that it is curved so that carbs rise upwards over the
>steering box.
>
>Lauri Lehtinen
>journalist, engineer
>mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988
>
>-----Alkuperdinen viesti-----
>Ldhettdjd: tom.hill at att.net [mailto:tom.hill at att.net]
>Ldhetetty: 25. helmikuuta 2009 16:44
>Vastaanottaja: ?auri Lehtinen; alpines at autox.team.net
>Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Dual webers
>
>Hi Lauri,
>
>Since the Holbay manifold was used on the Arrow body Alpine, the carbs
>will actually point downward when installed on a Series Alpine.  It has
>straight runners and, on a lefthand drive Alpine, it difficult to use
>because of the brake master cylinder.  I have one that was cut and
>rewelded to provide a 5 deg upward angle for the carbs.  I was using a
>Wilwood master cylinder and it barely fit.  I removed and reinstalled
>the engine and it would no longer fit.  The real interference point was
>the steering box.  I made some spacers to go under the motor and
>transmission mounts to lift the engine slightly and it still wouldn't
>fit.  I ended up getting the Redline manifold intended for the Series
>Alpine and having the intake runners welded up to match the Holbay head.
>
>You can see some pictures of when it did fit at
><http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html>
>http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html
> <http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html>
> <http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html> Tom Hill
> <http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html>
>_______________________________________________
>Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
>Alpines at autox.team.net
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
>http://www.team.net/archive

From mrtebo at shaw.ca  Wed Feb 25 09:23:11 2009
From: mrtebo at shaw.ca (Mary and Ron Tebo)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:23:11 -0700
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <E1LcKEy-00044s-An@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1LcKEy-00044s-An@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <49A5706F.7060108@shaw.ca>

Allan:

My archive picture IS the Tom hill picture, so I can now give him the 
credit. Thanks Tom!

Ron Tebo

Allan Ballard wrote:
> Hi Ron,
>
> I would appreciate a copy.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Allan Ballard 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net]
> On Behalf Of Mary and Ron Tebo
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:43 AM
> To: alpines
> Subject: Re: [Alpines] Dual webers
>
> Lauri:
>
> Here is a picture from my archive. I usually am careful to note the source,
> but I slipped up this time. Since I can't send it on the list, I will send
> it offlist to anyone else that wants it.
>
> Ron Tebo
>
> ?auri Lehtinen wrote:
>   
>> Hello, folks,
>> has anyone a photo of a Holbay manifold for dual webers?
>> Is it bent so that carbs rise a bit higher?
>> And how brake master cylinder is arranged?
>>
>> Lauri
>>
>> ?auri Lehtinen
>> toimittaja, insinoori
>> Asemapaallikonkatu 12B
>> Helsinki, Finland
>> +358 (0) 400 851988
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Spyware Doctor-ohjelma on tarkistanut sdhkvpostiviestit (6.0.0.386)
>> Tietokantaversio: 5.11840
>> http://www.pctools.com/fi/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> Alpines at autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>>
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Alpines at autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
> http://www.team.net/archive

From achd73 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 10:34:09 2009
From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:34:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Alpines] webber pics
Message-ID: <715637.96608.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well I guess since I own some Alpines I could be TonytheAlpine person too. Ive wanted a set of webbers for my S5 w/OD. I ordered a cam and ported the stock head but am still stuck w/ the Stromberg carbs- wich are good carbs IF you are good at getting them set so all four cylinders run the same- I burned a hole thru number 1 when I bought the car as the PO had told me he adjusted the carbs.He didnt know the car had OD- why would I think he could adjust the carbs and tune the engine- My DUH! I knew I should have checked them- to lean. BUT the car ran great after I installed a new piston- that was driving from Phenoix to Austin- almost made Austin. Towed the car to my daughters and started calling Doug and SS for the parts I needed. Then I started home from Austin to southern IL. I  lost a bearing cap coming from Austin and again I was almost to my destination. IF I only had not tried to restart the enigine- I was thinking it fixed itself. Really I turned
 the engine off when the oil pressure started jumping and was lucky that the rod stayed on the crank while it was under load- it was when I set there- no signal to call anyone that I decided to restart it to see what the oil pressure would show. I could have dropped the pan and drove off in a few hours of laying on the intersate had I known the problem. Even worse I could have fixed the block- as it just pushed a hole thru the water jacket- it locked up prettyy quick. The replacement engine still isnt back together- machine shop lost my ported head- so Im starting over. I have Tiger work to do but Im always looking for ways to improve the S5. I would apreciate the pics and any information the list can toss to a guy for investing in the carbs and intake etc. They want a ton but Im sure the car responds much better. Anyone that gets a chance to have OD, I loved it- the car ran a ton better than my nicer S5. The speedo cable was broken when I bought the car
 BUT I passed everything on the interstate from Dallas until I broke down in Mo- about 5 miles from the Il. state line. I had no dim headlights- talk about pissed off truck drivers- all nigt long they flashed their light- as luck would have it the brights worked great and poined to the left. I should have bought a CB. At least I took tools on the plane to Az. Later on my Tiger I had no tail lights- I ran a jumper in the trunk and hooked an alligator clip to the battery- FOUND the problem- a bullet connector under the steering wheel part of the car- wiggle the wires and the tail lights come back on. Love Lucas. Are they on the stock market? LOL
Thanks
TonytheTiger
PS- Thanks to Jim Ellis for his cam advice and the porting instructions he sent. JIM, I know you are behaing. LOL 

From tom.hill at att.net  Wed Feb 25 12:18:15 2009
From: tom.hill at att.net (tom.hill at att.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:18:15 +0000
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <10695413.1235578688689.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <022520091918.28791.49A59977000491E10000707722216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF04040708D203019B@att.net>

So does this mean there are two Holbay manifolds?  One for the Arrow range Alpine H120 (with smaller intake runners) and an aftermarket piece (with larger intake runners) for using dual Webers on a Series Alpine?



-------------- Original message from "jarrid_gross at earthlink.net" <jarrid_gross at earthlink.net>: -------------- 


> Lauri, 
> Yes this is true, there were several, the most notable was the hartwell 
> manifold. 
> 
> The new one available from australia (someone will have to provide that source) is setup with gooseneck runners, which avoids many of the normal pitfalls on LHD 
> cars. 
> Since you have a RHD car (I presume), then just about any vertical app weber 
> intake should fit the bill, the one I use is now available from Pierce manifolds in 
> California. 
> Its the one formerly made by TWM "L-0077". 
> 
> 
> HTH 
> 
> 
> Jarrid Gross 
> 1725 with twin DCOE 45s. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> >I am quite sure there was a Holbay manifold for Series Alpines before 
> >H120 was introduced. 
> >Ron Tebo sent me a photo of such. 
> >It seems to me that it is curved so that carbs rise upwards over the 
> >steering box. 
> > 
> >Lauri Lehtinen 
> >journalist, engineer 
> >mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988 
> > 
> >-----Alkuperdinen viesti----- 
> >Ldhettdjd: tom.hill at att.net [mailto:tom.hill at att.net] 
> >Ldhetetty: 25. helmikuuta 2009 16:44 
> >Vastaanottaja: ?auri Lehtinen; alpines at autox.team.net 
> >Aihe: Re: [Alpines] Dual webers 
> > 
> >Hi Lauri, 
> > 
> >Since the Holbay manifold was used on the Arrow body Alpine, the carbs 
> >will actually point downward when installed on a Series Alpine. It has 
> >straight runners and, on a lefthand drive Alpine, it difficult to use 
> >because of the brake master cylinder. I have one that was cut and 
> >rewelded to provide a 5 deg upward angle for the carbs. I was using a 
> >Wilwood master cylinder and it barely fit. I removed and reinstalled 
> >the engine and it would no longer fit. The real interference point was 
> >the steering box. I made some spacers to go under the motor and 
> >transmission mounts to lift the engine slightly and it still wouldn't 
> >fit. I ended up getting the Redline manifold intended for the Series 
> >Alpine and having the intake runners welded up to match the Holbay head. 
> > 
> >You can see some pictures of when it did fit at 
> > 
> >http://www.tomhill.freeservers.com/photo4.html 
> > 
> > Tom Hill 
> > 
> >_______________________________________________ 
> >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html 
> > 
> >Alpines at autox.team.net 
> >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines 
> > 
> >http://www.team.net/archive 

From JACranwell at aol.com  Wed Feb 25 12:40:56 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:40:56 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
Message-ID: <bd5.44991503.36d6f8c8@aol.com>

Jarrid,

As Lauri is in Finland, I'm pretty sure he has a LHD car, with all the issues 
with the steering box and M/C.

Julian.

From aballard at ix.netcom.com  Wed Feb 25 13:17:19 2009
From: aballard at ix.netcom.com (Allan Ballard)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:17:19 -0500
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
In-Reply-To: <bd5.44991503.36d6f8c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <E1LcQC4-0005wv-3T@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hunter GLS used dual webers, but the engine slanted 10 degrees so the
manifold has to be
Corrected for use on a vertical engine and that can be very expensive.

I have one or two of the Hunter manifolds, but am coming to believe it's
better to obtain one already Suited for a vertical engine. 

Allan

-----Original Message-----
From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net]
On Behalf Of JACranwell at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:41 PM
To: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net; lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi;
alpines at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Alpines] Dual webers

Jarrid,

As Lauri is in Finland, I'm pretty sure he has a LHD car, with all the
issues with the steering box and M/C.

Julian.
Alpines at autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

http://www.team.net/archive

From JACranwell at aol.com  Thu Feb 26 01:52:46 2009
From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 03:52:46 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Dual webers
Message-ID: <d49.3e3670c5.36d7b25e@aol.com>

I'm sure that is the case, as the Arrow engine was canted over quite a bit.

I have 2 types of Stromberg manifold, of which one is for the Arrow set up, 
and the other Alpine, and there's a big difference in the angle of the carbs.

Julian.

From LOsoccer at aol.com  Thu Feb 26 08:29:44 2009
From: LOsoccer at aol.com (LOsoccer at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:29:44 EST
Subject: [Alpines] Cleaning my Garage
Message-ID: <c31.4fb7e1bf.36d80f68@aol.com>

I have many different Alpine parts that I need to move out of my  garage.  
Bell housings misc solex carbs and unknow carbs, generators,  alternators and 
odds and ends of engine and transmission parts.   I  could take them to the 
recycle center but some of you all may want  them.  Not looking for money just 
don't want to throw this stuff  away.  It may be needed by some.  I'll put a list 
on the list of what  I have.  If someone knows  a body that is a resource for 
parts in the  Pacific Northwest I'll move them to them.
 
 
In a message dated 2/25/2009 8:41:35 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
mrtebo at shaw.ca writes:

Allan:

My archive picture IS the Tom hill picture, so I can now  give him the 
credit. Thanks Tom!

Ron Tebo

Allan Ballard  wrote:
> Hi Ron,
>
> I would appreciate a  copy.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Allan Ballard 
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net  
[mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net]
> On Behalf Of Mary and Ron  Tebo
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:43 AM
> To:  alpines
> Subject: Re: [Alpines] Dual webers
>
>  Lauri:
>
> Here is a picture from my archive. I usually am careful  to note the source,
> but I slipped up this time. Since I can't send it  on the list, I will send
> it offlist to anyone else that wants  it.
>
> Ron Tebo
>
> ?auri Lehtinen  wrote:
>   
>> Hello, folks,
>> has anyone a  photo of a Holbay manifold for dual webers?
>> Is it bent so that  carbs rise a bit higher?
>> And how brake master cylinder is  arranged?
>>
>> Lauri
>>
>> ?auri  Lehtinen
>> toimittaja, insinoori
>> Asemapaallikonkatu  12B
>> Helsinki, Finland
>> +358 (0) 400  851988
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Spyware Doctor-ohjelma on tarkistanut sdhkvpostiviestit  (6.0.0.386)
>> Tietokantaversio: 5.11840
>>  http://www.pctools.com/fi/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
>>  _______________________________________________
>> Support  Team.Net  http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>>  Alpines at autox.team.net
>>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>>
>>  http://www.team.net/archive
>>     
>  _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net   http://www.team.net/donate.html
>
> Alpines at autox.team.net
>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines
>
>  http://www.team.net/archive
Alpines at autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines

http://www.team.net/archive


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