From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Dec 1 19:16:03 2009 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (drmayf) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:16:03 -0800 Subject: [Alpines] Team Net Forum... Message-ID: <4B15CDE3.1000805@mayfco.com> Mark seems to have been ahead of us all along. He has set up a straw horse of a froum web site. right now it does not have Tigeres or SAlpines on it but I suspect if you ask nice then it might be added. Take a look at the beginnigs... not my cup of tea but a lot of you asked for it so maybe this is it! http://www.team.net/forums/ mayf From achd73 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 13 13:03:51 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 12:03:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head Message-ID: <944395.99697.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a chane to buy a Holbay head and want to use it on the 1725 Im rebuilding for my S5. Although I do have a couple of nice Alpines (my opinion of course) I have more Tiger knowledge,but w/ OD, my\this S5 was a ton of fun and it had great hiway speed, except with the 18 wheeler problem, it kept wanting to pass them at a high rate of speed. To bad the speedo cable was broken in half, I might have slowed down. NEways, is there any problems using the Holbay head Im unaware of? Im installing a cam reccomended by Jim Ellis. I had a relly nice stock head I spent hours porting and then sent out to have a pro finish it BUT the machine shop says I picked it up- funny I left the block. I think my buddies S2 has my head on the engine I sold him, as his mechanic had the engine and head in the same machine shop. If he ever blows a head gasket I will know for sure. LOL Thanks ahead of time for any help I may receive and happy Holidays to all. TonytheTiger From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net Sun Dec 13 14:25:36 2009 From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:25:36 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head Message-ID: <18123034.1260739536997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Tony, If its trully a holbay head, there are two things to be said for it. 1) The intake ports will be very small, limiting top end power. 2) The combustion chambers are somewhat higher volume than the normal 1725 and without special flat top pistons, you will end up loosing compression ratio and thus engine power. Now its been rather common to modify a normal 1725 head to Holbay specs, this of course ignores the smaller intake ports, which obviously cannot be made. In this case, you have the higher chamber volumes and subsequent loss in mechanical compression ratio. In order to function to H120 specs, you will need the head, H120 cam, alpine spec twin weber DCOE intake, and the special holbay spec twin 40 DCOE carbs. Jarrid Gross -----Original Message----- >From: Tony Somebody >Sent: Dec 13, 2009 12:03 PM >To: Alpine List >Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head > >I have a chane to buy a Holbay head and want to use it on the 1725 Im >rebuilding for my S5. Although I do have a couple of nice Alpines (my opinion >of course) I have more Tiger knowledge,but w/ OD, my\this S5 was a ton of fun >and it had great hiway speed, except with the 18 wheeler problem, it kept >wanting to pass them at a high rate of speed. To bad the speedo cable was >broken in half, I might have slowed down. NEways, is there any problems using >the Holbay head Im unaware of? Im installing a cam reccomended by Jim Ellis. I >had a relly nice stock head I spent hours porting and then sent out to have a >pro finish it BUT the machine shop says I picked it up- funny I left the >block. I think my buddies S2 has my head on the engine I sold him, as his >mechanic had the engine and head in the same machine shop. If he ever blows a >head gasket I will know for sure. LOL >Thanks ahead of time for any help I may receive and happy Holidays to all. >TonytheTiger >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Alpines at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > >http://www.team.net/archive From jeff at v8tiger.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 13 14:58:11 2009 From: jeff at v8tiger.demon.co.uk (Jeff Howarth) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:58:11 +0000 Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head In-Reply-To: <944395.99697.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <944395.99697.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Tony, the polished combustion chamber son the Holbay head are bigger than the standard Alpine head. This will mean that if you use the head and your standard dished pistons, you will reduce your compression ratio. the Holbay engines used FLAT top pistons to make up for the increased chamber volume. these are available in the UK, not sure about the US. regards Jeff In message <944395.99697.qm at web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Tony Somebody writes >I have a chane to buy a Holbay head and want to use it on the 1725 Im >rebuilding for my S5. Although I do have a couple of nice Alpines (my opinion >of course) I have more Tiger knowledge,but w/ OD, my\this S5 was a ton of fun >and it had great hiway speed, except with the 18 wheeler problem, it kept >wanting to pass them at a high rate of speed. To bad the speedo cable was >broken in half, I might have slowed down. NEways, is there any problems using >the Holbay head Im unaware of? Im installing a cam reccomended by Jim Ellis. I >had a relly nice stock head I spent hours porting and then sent out to have a >pro finish it BUT the machine shop says I picked it up- funny I left the >block. I think my buddies S2 has my head on the engine I sold him, as his >mechanic had the engine and head in the same machine shop. If he ever blows a >head gasket I will know for sure. LOL >Thanks ahead of time for any help I may receive and happy Holidays to all. >TonytheTiger >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Alpines at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > >http://www.team.net/archive > -- Jeff Howarth From achd73 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 13 15:22:21 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 14:22:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <791812.59099.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for the information Jeff. I think I didnt have to bore the cylinders- maybe I have a set of pistons(RIGHT LOL) that are flat top. If not I will be weighing my decesions.Thanks again, Tony --- On Sun, 12/13/09, Jeff Howarth wrote: From: Jeff Howarth Subject: Re: [Alpines] Holbay head To: "Tony Somebody" Cc: "Alpine List" Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 3:58 PM Hi Tony, the polished combustion chamber son the Holbay head are bigger than the standard Alpine head. This will mean that if you use the head and your standard dished pistons, you will reduce your compression ratio. the Holbay engines used FLAT top pistons to make up for the increased chamber volume. these are available in the UK, not sure about the US. regards Jeff In message <944395.99697.qm at web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Tony Somebody writes >I have a chane to buy a Holbay head and want to use it on the 1725 Im >rebuilding for my S5. Although I do have a couple of nice Alpines (my opinion >of course) I have more Tiger knowledge,but w/ OD, my\this S5 was a ton of fun >and it had great hiway speed, except with the 18 wheeler problem, it kept >wanting to pass them at a high rate of speed. To bad the speedo cable was >broken in half, I might have slowed down. NEways, is there any problems using >the Holbay head Im unaware of? Im installing a cam reccomended by Jim Ellis. I >had a relly nice stock head I spent hours porting and then sent out to have a >pro finish it BUT the machine shop says I picked it up- funny I left the >block. I think my buddies S2 has my head on the engine I sold him, as his >mechanic had the engine and head in the same machine shop. If he ever blows a >head gasket I will know for sure. LOL >Thanks ahead of time for any help I may receive and happy Holidays to all. >TonytheTiger >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Alpines at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > >http://www.team.net/archive > -- Jeff Howarth From rootesrooter at aol.com Sun Dec 13 22:40:32 2009 From: rootesrooter at aol.com (rootesrooter at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:40:32 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head In-Reply-To: <944395.99697.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <944395.99697.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC4A9716287CED-36F4-13DC3@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Dear Mr. Tiger, You may be able to narrow the odds that your buddy has your Holbay head on his S2, IF he gave the shop a stock S2 head to begin with. The spark plus holes on the Holbay head should be recessed pockets, rather than the cylindrical tubes found on Series I thru late-Series V. Also, the S2 head will have the threaded fitting at the back of the head for the pipe that feeds water to the inlet manifold. The same area on the Holbay head should be blanked off completely, with no threaded fitting (like S1-2) or even a large bolt screw, like on most Series IV-V heads. In that case, your buddy would probably have no pipe anymore to the now-blocked off water inlet on the Zenith manifold, which means he should have known it wasn't his head he picked up. Hopefully - not the case. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Somebody To: Alpine List Sent: Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:03 pm Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head I have a chane to buy a Holbay head and want to use it on the 1725 Im ebuilding for my S5. Although I do have a couple of nice Alpines (my opinion f course) I have more Tiger knowledge,but w/ OD, my\this S5 was a ton of fun nd it had great hiway speed, except with the 18 wheeler problem, it kept anting to pass them at a high rate of speed. To bad the speedo cable was roken in half, I might have slowed down. NEways, is there any problems using he Holbay head Im unaware of? Im installing a cam reccomended by Jim Ellis. I ad a relly nice stock head I spent hours porting and then sent out to have a ro finish it BUT the machine shop says I picked it up- funny I left the lock. I think my buddies S2 has my head on the engine I sold him, as his echanic had the engine and head in the same machine shop. If he ever blows a ead gasket I will know for sure. LOL hanks ahead of time for any help I may receive and happy Holidays to all. onytheTiger Alpines at autox.team.net ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive = From achd73 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 14 00:18:56 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 23:18:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head In-Reply-To: <8CC4A9716287CED-36F4-13DC3@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <272284.12545.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> THANKS for your thoughts. The car is a S2 but I sold him a S5 engine to replace the orginal S2. He wantd more power and wasnt concerned w/ orginality. Thanks, TtT --- On Sun, 12/13/09, rootesrooter at aol.com wrote: From: rootesrooter at aol.com Subject: Re: [Alpines] Holbay head To: alpines at autox.team.net Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 11:40 PM Dear Mr. Tiger, You may be able to narrow the odds that your buddy has your Holbay head on his S2, IF he gave the shop a stock S2 head to begin with. The spark plus holes on the Holbay head should be recessed pockets, rather than the cylindrical tubes found on Series I thru late-Series V. Also, the S2 head will have the threaded fitting at the back of the head for the pipe that feeds water to the inlet manifold. The same area on the Holbay head should be blanked off completely, with no threaded fitting (like S1-2) or even a large bolt screw, like on most Series IV-V heads. In that case, your buddy would probably have no pipe anymore to the now-blocked off water inlet on the Zenith manifold, which means he should have known it wasn't his head he picked up. Hopefully - not the case. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Somebody To: Alpine List Sent: Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:03 pm Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head I have a chane to buy a Holbay head and want to use it on the 1725 Im ebuilding for my S5. Although I do have a couple of nice Alpines (my opinion f course) I have more Tiger knowledge,but w/ OD, my\this S5 was a ton of fun nd it had great hiway speed, except with the 18 wheeler problem, it kept anting to pass them at a high rate of speed. To bad the speedo cable was roken in half, I might have slowed down. NEways, is there any problems using he Holbay head Im unaware of? Im installing a cam reccomended by Jim Ellis. I ad a relly nice stock head I spent hours porting and then sent out to have a ro finish it BUT the machine shop says I picked it up- funny I left the lock. I think my buddies S2 has my head on the engine I sold him, as his echanic had the engine and head in the same machine shop. If he ever blows a ead gasket I will know for sure. LOL hanks ahead of time for any help I may receive and happy Holidays to all. onytheTiger Alpines at autox.team.net ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive = Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From wiencek at anl.gov Mon Dec 14 09:06:36 2009 From: wiencek at anl.gov (Wiencek, Thomas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:06:36 -0600 Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head In-Reply-To: <8CC4A9716287CED-36F4-13DC3@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> References: <944395.99697.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CC4A9716287CED-36F4-13DC3@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <455E54DB4FBC0D4CBE3B2ED30FB212DF01EF6BD8@OZZY.anl.gov> You can also tell by the date and part number cast into the head (You'll have to pull off the valve cover). The part numbers are different. -----Original Message----- From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of rootesrooter at aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 11:41 PM To: alpines at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Alpines] Holbay head Dear Mr. Tiger, You may be able to narrow the odds that your buddy has your Holbay head on his S2, IF he gave the shop a stock S2 head to begin with. The spark plus holes on the Holbay head should be recessed pockets, rather than the cylindrical tubes found on Series I thru late-Series V. Also, the S2 head will have the threaded fitting at the back of the head for the pipe that feeds water to the inlet manifold. The same area on the Holbay head should be blanked off completely, with no threaded fitting (like S1-2) or even a large bolt screw, like on most Series IV-V heads. In that case, your buddy would probably have no pipe anymore to the now-blocked off water inlet on the Zenith manifold, which means he should have known it wasn't his head he picked up. Hopefully - not the case. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Somebody To: Alpine List Sent: Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:03 pm Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head I have a chane to buy a Holbay head and want to use it on the 1725 Im ebuilding for my S5. Although I do have a couple of nice Alpines (my opinion f course) I have more Tiger knowledge,but w/ OD, my\this S5 was a ton of fun nd it had great hiway speed, except with the 18 wheeler problem, it kept anting to pass them at a high rate of speed. To bad the speedo cable was roken in half, I might have slowed down. NEways, is there any problems using he Holbay head Im unaware of? Im installing a cam reccomended by Jim Ellis. I ad a relly nice stock head I spent hours porting and then sent out to have a ro finish it BUT the machine shop says I picked it up- funny I left the lock. I think my buddies S2 has my head on the engine I sold him, as his echanic had the engine and head in the same machine shop. If he ever blows a ead gasket I will know for sure. LOL hanks ahead of time for any help I may receive and happy Holidays to all. onytheTiger Alpines at autox.team.net ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive = Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From aballard at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 14 14:37:36 2009 From: aballard at ix.netcom.com (Allan Ballard) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:37:36 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] Holbay head In-Reply-To: <455E54DB4FBC0D4CBE3B2ED30FB212DF01EF6BD8@OZZY.anl.gov> Message-ID: Which cam did Jim E recommend? I am currently using a Holbay head with a stock cam and will swap cams this spring I hope. On a dyno, my stock cam has a power band from ~2K to a little past 5K, not bad for average street use; by 5.5 it is all done. Revving to the 'red line' is a waste of time. I'd like to find a cam that will take advangage of the Holbay head from low in the rpm range to high, maybe to 5.5 -- 6K - but also will build more power than the stock cam, not just change the power band... Coltec, the firm that used to be Holbay in UK offers a cam , but it kicks in at about 3K rpm, not too good for rally/street use. So I wondered which cam you were going to use. Allan From spmdr at juno.com Wed Dec 16 10:03:20 2009 From: spmdr at juno.com (spmdr at juno.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:03:20 -0800 Subject: [Alpines] Cams, etc. Message-ID: <20091216.090351.-2005473.1.spmdr@juno.com> As Jarrid may point out, The standard Alpine head is weak in exhaust flow, that tends to limit power over 4000 RPM. There are two things you can consider. -Big exhaust valves (check / mod block clearance). -Dual pattern cam with more exhaust duration. Both proven to be steps in the right direction. DW ____________________________________________________________ Criminal Lawyer Criminal Lawyers - Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=8umCZTL2lm1GGeAZ5eGVAgAAJ1Bov207glucAVADPihYaUNRAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAiFgAAAAA= From marcsmall at comcast.net Thu Dec 17 18:08:09 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:08:09 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091218010831.E6B081878AF@autox.team.net> At 07:36 PM 12/17/2009, Brent Edinger wrote: Thank you, Brother Edinger. Now, pray, share with us the basic concept: what in the world are "drop spindles" I suspect I must know this before I can die happy. Do not let me down. I am VERY thick-witted: it took me seven months when I lived in Connecticut to understand why I had become a "gear head" just because I was cleaning piston heads. Curt Meinel can tell you how monomaniacal I can be .... Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! From marcsmall at comcast.net Thu Dec 17 19:13:58 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:13:58 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: References: <20091218010831.E380F18786C@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <20091218021408.288541878DE@autox.team.net> At 08:23 PM 12/17/2009, michael king wrote: >Thank you, Brother Edinger. Now, pray, share with >us the basic concept: what in the world are "drop spindles" > > >Marc > >The spindles that mount your front wheels have a point where they >extend out.. on later model hillmans they used the same spindle but >the pitching point for the wheel attachment is higher up.. so the >mounts etc remain in the same place.. but the body is effectively >lowered over the wheels. Thank you, Michael. Say all again all after, as they say. This is gibberish. I do not know what "a point where they extend out" means in common English. Marc From marcsmall at comcast.net Thu Dec 17 19:16:40 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:16:40 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <39a841b0912171734i35d7a178y50152a5199873695@mail.gmail.com > References: <20091218010831.E380F18786C@autox.team.net> <39a841b0912171734i35d7a178y50152a5199873695@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091218022611.F113A187918@autox.team.net> At 08:34 PM 12/17/2009, Owain Lloyd wrote: >stub axles with the spindle closer to the mid point of the lower and >upper a-arms. Its lowers the wheel into the body. Also screws up >bump steer. (As if it was ever perfect....) Thank you, kind sir. You are trying to communicate, but what you are saying is gibberish. Why cannot you folks just can the technical language and give us the actual stuff. Why not reference drawings? Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! From marcsmall at comcast.net Thu Dec 17 19:19:20 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:19:20 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: References: <20091218010831.E380F18786C@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <20091218022612.39A1B187930@autox.team.net> At 08:49 PM 12/17/2009, Jim wrote: >The dropped spindles can be had from a Hillman Minx ( series V & VI ), >Singer Gazelle ( series V & VI ) and Sunbeam Rapier (series IV & V ) that >were produced from late '63 to '67 . From what I've been told, they only >came on cars sold in the U.K. , Australia and New Zealand although I've come >across a few rare others... >They have the stub axle located exactly 7/8" higher than Alpine/Tiger >spindles which effectively lowers the car the same amount. I have 3 sets >that I've acquired over the years at no small expense. One set is for sale >at the right price... Thank you. But I have not the slightest idea of what you are speaking. What the hell is a "drop axle"? Is there anyone out there who can set this out in Layman's Terms or who can provide a drawing of what we are discussing. I am a dimwit and I am at a loss. Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 17 20:04:49 2009 From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:04:49 -0800 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles References: <20091218010831.E380F18786C@autox.team.net> <20091218022612.39A1B187930@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <6A39236C46674EE7BB7DA44C7FB73809@owner33025ef87> Raise the spindle height so the front of the car sits lower. Another alternative that I did on my old S1 race car was to drill out the rivets in the coil spring buckets, lower the bocket then weld it into place. Lowers the front without altering the suspension geometry. a block of aluminum between the rear leaf springs and axle tube to lower the rear and the car is back in symmetry. To make the lever shocks work good, a 50/50 misture of 15wt motorcycle fork tube oil and STP. A good handling Alpine at minimum cost. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marc James Small To: Jim ; 'Brent Edinger' ; 'tigers' ; 'Alpine List' Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles At 08:49 PM 12/17/2009, Jim wrote: >The dropped spindles can be had from a Hillman Minx ( series V & VI ), >Singer Gazelle ( series V & VI ) and Sunbeam Rapier (series IV & V ) that >were produced from late '63 to '67 . From what I've been told, they only >came on cars sold in the U.K. , Australia and New Zealand although I've come >across a few rare others... >They have the stub axle located exactly 7/8" higher than Alpine/Tiger >spindles which effectively lowers the car the same amount. I have 3 sets >that I've acquired over the years at no small expense. One set is for sale >at the right price... Thank you. But I have not the slightest idea of what you are speaking. What the hell is a "drop axle"? Is there anyone out there who can set this out in Layman's Terms or who can provide a drawing of what we are discussing. I am a dimwit and I am at a loss. Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From marcsmall at comcast.net Thu Dec 17 20:21:01 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:21:01 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <6A39236C46674EE7BB7DA44C7FB73809@owner33025ef87> References: <20091218010831.E380F18786C@autox.team.net> <20091218022612.39A1B187930@autox.team.net> <6A39236C46674EE7BB7DA44C7FB73809@owner33025ef87> Message-ID: <20091218032115.7798F1878D9@autox.team.net> At 10:04 PM 12/17/2009, Carl McLelland wrote: >Raise the spindle height so the front of the car >sits lower. Another alternative that I did on my >old S1 race car was to drill out the rivets in >the coil spring buckets, lower the bocket then >weld it into place. Lowers the front without >altering the suspension geometry. a block of >aluminum between the rear leaf springs and axle >tube to lower the rear and the car is back in >symmetry. To make the lever shocks work good, a >50/50 misture of 15wt motorcycle fork tube oil >and STP. A good handling Alpine at minimum cost. May we try this again in basic English for those of us who were not raised in West Bengal? Would someone else try to translate this stuff? How does raising the spindle height raise the sit of the car, and why ought I to care? Pray, tell me! Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! From gstrom99 at joimail.com Thu Dec 17 20:56:11 2009 From: gstrom99 at joimail.com (Gary) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:56:11 -0600 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles References: <20091218010831.E380F18786C@autox.team.net><20091218022612.39A1B187930@autox.team.net><6A39236C46674EE7BB7DA44C7FB73809@owner33025ef87> <20091218032115.7798F1878D9@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <31EC59F72D664B9FA424AD36C0371DCD@RacerX> At this point, I would venture to say you probably shouldn't care. The setup is that if the spindle height is higher on the spindle itself, this will result in lowering the car. The name "dropped" spindle doesn't fit I know, but that's what we use. Gary From marcsmall at comcast.net Thu Dec 17 21:40:10 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:40:10 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles Message-ID: <20091218044028.257D7187681@autox.team.net> Pray,, let us keep the discussion concentrated on those of us who are interested. You Tiger guys seem to want to wander off into personal discussions. Pray, keep those of the Alpine list in the discussion. Marc From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi Fri Dec 18 00:55:32 2009 From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:55:32 +0200 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <20091218044028.257D7187681@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <921B0274B264486FACC1BE6F1F3F13E0@lehtipuu224865> This is what I remember about a discussion about 15 years ago. Rootes made Hillmans for rough conditions (it is - worse roads) and exported them to such peripheries (areas far away) as Finland. They had 15" wheels instead of normal 13" used in Minx and Superminx. In my opinion it could be logic that these drop spindles have been adopted to compensate this "Siberian road funny car" effect. By the way, 30 years ago I stopped praying and concentrated on thinking. And 20 years ago I then bought my Alpine. Many of us are also interested not Alpines only but in humour too. Lauri Lehtinen journalist, engineer mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988 -----Alkuperdinen viesti----- Ldhettdjd: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] Puolesta Marc James Small Ldhetetty: 18. joulukuuta 2009 6:40 Vastaanottaja: Alpine List; Brent Edinger; tigers owain.lloyd at gmail.com Aihe: Re: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles Pray,, let us keep the discussion concentrated on those of us who are interested. You Tiger guys seem to want to wander off into personal discussions. Pray, keep those of the Alpine list in the discussion. Marc _______________________________________________ From lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi Fri Dec 18 01:15:41 2009 From: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi (=?iso-8859-1?B?o2F1cmk=?=) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:15:41 +0200 Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand In-Reply-To: <20091218032115.7798F1878D9@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <020F1CCEA4AE4707962A955F79B1E9D9@lehtipuu224865> For at least 30 years I have tried to understand what this song means: As I was goin' over the Cork and Kerry Mountains I saw Captain Farrell and his money, he was countin' I first produced my Alpine and then produced my Rapier I said, "Stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya" Why devil should take a man who have seen both an Alpine and a Rapier? For 30 years I have not slept well because of this problem. And I have had not courage enough to buy a Rapier. Lauri Lehtinen journalist, engineer mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988 From jacranwell at aol.com Fri Dec 18 05:04:42 2009 From: jacranwell at aol.com (jacranwell at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:04:42 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand In-Reply-To: <020F1CCEA4AE4707962A955F79B1E9D9@lehtipuu224865> Message-ID: <8CC4DF16A568019-1144-165E@webmail-m083.sysops.aol.com> Ah, well you see he had the courage because he had whiskey in his jar. I could have done with some of that this morning. We have a whole inch of snow, and the UK has come to a standstill. You guys in Finland and Northern US states should find this mildly amusing. My brother in Utah has to plough feet of snow off his drive each morning, and we can't deal with an inch! Julian. -----Original Message----- From: B#auri To: 'Alpine List' Sent: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 8:15 Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand For at least 30 years I have tried to understand what this song means: s I was goin' over the Cork and Kerry Mountains saw Captain Farrell and his money, he was countin' first produced my Alpine and then produced my Rapier said, "Stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya" hy devil should take a man who have seen both an Alpine and a Rapier? or 30 years I have not slept well because of this problem. And I have ad not courage enough to buy a Rapier. auri Lehtinen ournalist, engineer obile: +358 (0) 400 851988 Alpines at autox.team.net ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From awtiger at cox.net Fri Dec 18 05:34:15 2009 From: awtiger at cox.net (awtiger) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:34:15 -0600 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <20091218044028.257D7187681@autox.team.net> References: <20091218044028.257D7187681@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <60F008877DFE41E6964AE57C2E15DE14@awtigerPC> Marc: Actually, there are some of us on the Alpine list who find this type of info very interesting. Personally, I'd love to get ahold of a set of those drop spindles for my Alpine; I wasn't even aware that they existed. Might I respectfully suggest that, in the future, you show a bit more tolerance with the members on the list and the discussions therein. And, if something comes up that you're not interested in, simply delete it instead of taking personal offense to it. That's what the rest of us do. Merry Chistmas, Andy Walker Edmond, OK B382001600LRXFE (TAC #740) B9006857LRX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc James Small" To: "Alpine List" ; "Brent Edinger" ; "tigers owain.lloyd at gmail.com" Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles > Pray,, let us keep the discussion concentrated on those of us who are > interested. You Tiger guys seem to want to wander off into personal > discussions. Pray, keep those of the Alpine list in the discussion. > > Marc > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Alpines at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > > http://www.team.net/archive From achd73 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 18 07:25:06 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:25:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand Message-ID: <118870.9890.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Mate-The same thing happens here in the states. When I was in basic trainiing in the Air Force in St. Antonio, Tx. we had enough snow to say the ground was covered- they shut the entire base down.I remember getting in trouble for lauging at the situation. Imangine we where being told just how great our air force was(is) and they let a snow that was so thin you couldnt build a snowman close them down. I thought it was funny, the drill instructors didnt- they won. TtT --- On Fri, 12/18/09, jacranwell at aol.com wrote: From: jacranwell at aol.com Subject: Re: [Alpines] Something I don't understand To: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi, alpines at autox.team.net Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 6:04 AM Ah, well you see he had the courage because he had whiskey in his jar. I could have done with some of that this morning. We have a whole inch of snow, and the UK has come to a standstill. You guys in Finland and Northern US states should find this mildly amusing. My brother in Utah has to plough feet of snow off his drive each morning, and we can't deal with an inch! Julian. -----Original Message----- From: B#auri To: 'Alpine List' Sent: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 8:15 Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand For at least 30 years I have tried to understand what this song means: s I was goin' over the Cork and Kerry Mountains saw Captain Farrell and his money, he was countin' first produced my Alpine and then produced my Rapier said, "Stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya" hy devil should take a man who have seen both an Alpine and a Rapier? or 30 years I have not slept well because of this problem. And I have ad not courage enough to buy a Rapier. auri Lehtinen ournalist, engineer obile: +358 (0) 400 851988 Alpines at autox.team.net ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From wiencek at anl.gov Fri Dec 18 08:16:17 2009 From: wiencek at anl.gov (Wiencek, Thomas) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:16:17 -0600 Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand In-Reply-To: <020F1CCEA4AE4707962A955F79B1E9D9@lehtipuu224865> References: <20091218032115.7798F1878D9@autox.team.net> <020F1CCEA4AE4707962A955F79B1E9D9@lehtipuu224865> Message-ID: <455E54DB4FBC0D4CBE3B2ED30FB212DF01FBE5D8@OZZY.anl.gov> "I first produced my Alpine and then produced my Rapier"- Everyone knows that a rapier is a sword but few people know that an alpine is UK slang for a small knife that is very expensive, hard to keep functional and at times can be very painful. :-) While googling this, I found this list. How many Alpines have you been to? It would make a great summer trip to take photos of your Alpine in all the Alpines. United States * Alpine, Alabama * Alpine, Alaska * Alpine, Arizona * Alpine, California, in San Diego County * Alpine, Los Angeles County, California * Alpine, Mendocino County, California * Alpine (former settlement), California, in Los Angeles County * Alpine County, California * Alpine, Indiana * Alpine Township, Michigan * Alpine, New Jersey * Alpine, Oregon * Alpine, Tennessee * Alpine, Texas * Alpine, Utah * Alpine, Washington * Alpine, Wyoming -----Original Message----- From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of #auri Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 2:16 AM To: 'Alpine List' Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand For at least 30 years I have tried to understand what this song means: As I was goin' over the Cork and Kerry Mountains I saw Captain Farrell and his money, he was countin' I first produced my Alpine and then produced my Rapier I said, "Stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya" Why devil should take a man who have seen both an Alpine and a Rapier? For 30 years I have not slept well because of this problem. And I have had not courage enough to buy a Rapier. Lauri Lehtinen journalist, engineer mobile: +358 (0) 400 851988 Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From sportsix63 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 18 08:20:48 2009 From: sportsix63 at yahoo.com (jim williams) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:20:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand In-Reply-To: <118870.9890.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <385195.37581.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> With a snow storm headed our way. (not here yet) Many stores and schools are already closing. We have our drivers on alert. Stay close to home. Traffic is terrible. Stores are full of people. No bread or milk in any of them. And it hasn't snowed a flake!! Not like the old times. Plus I bet 90% of the vehicles on the road are 4x4s ! Jim Williams Lewisburg, West Virginia --- On Fri, 12/18/09, Tony Somebody wrote: > From: Tony Somebody > Subject: Re: [Alpines] Something I don't understand > To: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi, alpines at autox.team.net, jacranwell at aol.com > Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 9:25 AM > Hi Mate-The same thing happens here > in the states. When I was in basic > trainiing in the Air Force in St. Antonio, Tx. we had > enough snow to say the > ground was covered- they shut the entire base down.I > remember getting in > trouble for lauging at the situation. Imangine we where > being told just how > great our air force was(is) and they let a snow that was so > thin you couldnt > build a snowman close them down. I thought it was funny, > the drill instructors > didnt- they won. > TtT > > --- On Fri, 12/18/09, jacranwell at aol.com > > wrote: > > > From: jacranwell at aol.com > > Subject: Re: [Alpines] Something I don't understand > To: lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi, > alpines at autox.team.net > Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 6:04 AM > > > Ah, well you see he had the courage because he had whiskey > in his jar. > > I could have done with some of that this morning. We have a > whole inch of > snow, and the UK has come to a standstill. You guys in > Finland and Northern > US > states should find this mildly amusing. My brother in Utah > has to plough feet > of snow off his drive each morning, and we can't deal with > an inch! > > Julian. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: B#auri > To: 'Alpine List' > Sent: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 8:15 > Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand > > > For at least 30 years I have tried to understand what this > song means: > > s I was goin' over the Cork and Kerry Mountains > saw Captain Farrell and his money, he was countin' > first produced my Alpine and then produced my Rapier > said, "Stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya" > > hy devil should take a man who have seen both an Alpine and > a Rapier? > or 30 years I have not slept well because of this problem. > And I have > ad not courage enough to buy a Rapier. > > auri Lehtinen > ournalist, engineer > obile: +358 (0) 400 851988 > Alpines at autox.team.net > ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > http://www.team.net/archive > Alpines at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > > http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Alpines at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > > http://www.team.net/archive From jan.eyerman at usa.net Fri Dec 18 08:48:54 2009 From: jan.eyerman at usa.net (Jan Eyerman) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:48:54 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... Message-ID: <597NLRPv32866S17.1261151334@cmsweb17.cms.usa.net> My family comes from upstate New York.... aka "The snow belt" or "300 inches of snow per winter". For many years I could not understand why auto makers made cars painted white- I never ever saw anyone local buy a white car... they "disappeared" in the snow and would get hit by snow plows. We had a "party" drive-way between two houses-2 families in each house so about 6 cars, when heavy snow (several feet) were expected we parked our cars bumper to bumper in the driveway to minimize digging them out in the morning. We also used to put "tenner toppers"-orange plastic balls on the top of the radio antenna so we could find the car in the snow. Somewhere I have a picture of what appears to be a field of snow with a bunch of orange balls sitting on top of the snow-those are our buried cars. Everybody put a hundred watt light bulb next to the carb and on top of the intake manifold in addition to engine block heater (or radiator hose heater or dipstick heater) to help start the car in the morning. If you had an old car that was really hard to start, you drained the oil at night and brought it in the house to keep it warm and then poured it in in the morning. Especially if 30 below zero was forecast. We used to drive on "hardpack" all winter and did not see the road surface again until spring. I also remember the "jingle" of snow chains all winter. You couldn't go much over 25MPH with them though, but with seriously snow covered roads you really couldn't safely go much faster. I now live in New Jersey where below zero temperatures are rare and a foot of snow is alot. Of course I also have a heated two car garage under the house (I would have loved that back in 1960 in Herkimer, NY). Thanks for bringing back those memories for me. Jan Eyerman From jan.eyerman at usa.net Fri Dec 18 09:01:13 2009 From: jan.eyerman at usa.net (Jan Eyerman) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:01:13 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles Message-ID: <772NLRqaN5352S28.1261152073@cmsweb28.cms.usa.net> Marc, The best way to think about this, if you are not a "gearhead", is to just think of the front wheels in relation to the body of the car. A "drop spindle" effectively lowers the body of the car in relation to the front wheels. A spindle is the short axle that the front wheel is connected to. If the spindle or axle is closer to the top of the car, the car will be lower to ground. A "drop spindle" is a shortened form meaning a "spindle that drops (lowers) the body of the car in relation to the ground". In this kind of situation fractions of an inch are a lot. A "dropped spindle" that lowers a car 3/4" is a lot. From a language point of view, the term "dropped spindle" is incorrect. If the spindle is dropped the car would actually sit higher off the ground, however the term is really a contraction. In short, it is jargon. Jan Eyerman 1959 Hillman Minx Series III Special Sedan (with "normal" height spindles) 1962 Hillman Minx Series IIIC Convertible (also with "normal" height spindles) 1977 Puch Maxi Moped 1963 Dunelt 3 speed bicycle plus assorted modern vehicles (and a VERY full garage) ------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:53:07 PM EST From: Marc James Small To: Alpine List ,Brent Edinger , tigers owain.lloyd at gmail.com Subject: Re: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles Pray,, let us keep the discussion concentrated on those of us who are interested. You Tiger guys seem to want to wander off into personal discussions. Pray, keep those of the Alpine list in the discussion. Marc Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From sportsix63 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 18 10:05:03 2009 From: sportsix63 at yahoo.com (jim williams) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:05:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... In-Reply-To: <597NLRPv32866S17.1261151334@cmsweb17.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <371620.11326.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Back in the 60s I drove VWs. On the cold nights you had to put the car in whatever gear you needed to get going or the cold oil would not allow it to go into gear. I also can remember putting a space heater in the car at night. First thing in the morning plug it in. Ready heat. Too young to care about fires! Jim Williams Lewisburg, West Virginia --- On Fri, 12/18/09, Jan Eyerman wrote: > From: Jan Eyerman > Subject: OFF TOPIC SNOW..... > To: "jim williams" , lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi, alpines at autox.team.net, jacranwell at aol.com, "Tony Somebody" > Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 10:48 AM > My family comes from upstate New > York.... aka "The snow belt" or "300 inches > of snow per winter". For many years I could not > understand why auto makers > made cars painted white- I never ever saw anyone local buy > a white car... they > "disappeared" in the snow and would get hit by snow > plows. We had a "party" > drive-way between two houses-2 families in each house so > about 6 cars, when > heavy snow (several feet) were expected we parked our cars > bumper to bumper in > the driveway to minimize digging them out in the > morning. We also used to put > "tenner toppers"-orange plastic balls on the top of the > radio antenna so we > could find the car in the snow. Somewhere I have a > picture of what appears to > be a field of snow with a bunch of orange balls sitting on > top of the > snow-those are our buried cars. Everybody put a > hundred watt light bulb next > to the carb and on top of the intake manifold in addition > to engine block > heater (or radiator hose heater or dipstick heater) to help > start the car in > the morning. If you had an old car that was really > hard to start, you drained > the oil at night and brought it in the house to keep it > warm and then poured > it in in the morning. Especially if 30 below zero was > forecast. We used to > drive on "hardpack" all winter and did not see the road > surface again until > spring. I also remember the "jingle" of snow chains > all winter. You couldn't > go much over 25MPH with them though, but with seriously > snow covered roads you > really couldn't safely go much faster. > > I now live in New Jersey where below zero temperatures are > rare and a foot of > snow is alot. Of course I also have a heated two car > garage under the house > (I would have loved that back in 1960 in Herkimer, > NY). > > Thanks for bringing back those memories for me. > > Jan Eyerman From marcsmall at comcast.net Fri Dec 18 10:13:56 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:13:56 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <772NLRqaN5352S28.1261152073@cmsweb28.cms.usa.net> References: <772NLRqaN5352S28.1261152073@cmsweb28.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <20091218172259.CF22B187903@autox.team.net> At 11:01 AM 12/18/2009, Jan Eyerman wrote: >Marc, > >The best way to think about this, if you are not a "gearhead", is to just >think of the front wheels in relation to the body of the car. A "drop >spindle" effectively lowers the body of the car in relation to the front >wheels. A spindle is the short axle that the front wheel is connected to. If >the spindle or axle is closer to the top of the car, the car will be lower to >ground. A "drop spindle" is a shortened form meaning a "spindle that drops >(lowers) the body of the car in relation to the ground". In this kind of >situation fractions of an inch are a lot. A "dropped spindle" that lowers a >car 3/4" is a lot. From a language point of view, the term "dropped spindle" >is incorrect. If the spindle is dropped the car would actually sit higher off >the ground, however the term is really a contraction. In short, it is >jargon. > Thanks, Jan. I still do not see the benefit of such, but, then, I never had any problem with Alpine handling. Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! From marcsmall at comcast.net Fri Dec 18 10:11:51 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:11:51 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <40CEBD6793EE4AA6AB402380A2B725A5@DavePC> References: <20091218044028.238DD18763E@autox.team.net> <40CEBD6793EE4AA6AB402380A2B725A5@DavePC> Message-ID: <20091218172259.C8A821878D8@autox.team.net> At 10:07 AM 12/18/2009, Dave Munroe wrote: >Ask Santa for a couple of Tiger repair books, or check-out the Tiger/Alpine >website tech sites, and learn some of the terminology. The broad strokes of >car repair do have their own language, but it is easily and quickly learned, >especially by someone like you who is gifted with a good intellect but >hampered by, forgive me, an attitude. This knowledge is what brings the >group together, and allows us to explain our problems to each other, and >understand the solutions known to others who have a deep interest in these >cars and are willing to share their knowledge. I suspect that I own more Sunbeam tech literature than most on the List. None discuss "drop spindles". I am waiting for someone to explain the term in layman's terms. So far, all we know is that they were offered on post-Tiger and post-Alpine Sunbeam and Hillman cars. Now, WHAT they are, no one has said, just that they were available late in the Sunbeam game. Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! From jarrid_gross at earthlink.net Fri Dec 18 10:53:23 2009 From: jarrid_gross at earthlink.net (jarrid_gross at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:53:23 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles Message-ID: <14433766.1261158803240.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Marc, If I explain it in laymens terms, will you shut the hell up? Really, you have taken this way too far. What is being called drop spindles are actually stub axles (there is your laymen term) that were used as standard on 15 inch wheel equipped hillmans. The difference being, the spindle (yes this is another laymen term) is offset on the stub axle so that with the larger wheels and tires, the ride height is appropriate. These are not items that were nromally offered on the alpine/tiger but since its for another audax rootes vehicle, they also fit the alpine/tiger with a subsequent drop in road height, which some consider to be aesthetically pleasing. Jarrid Gross -----Original Message----- >From: Marc James Small >Sent: Dec 18, 2009 9:11 AM >To: Dave Munroe , Alpine List , tigers >Subject: Re: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles > >At 10:07 AM 12/18/2009, Dave Munroe wrote: > > >Ask Santa for a couple of Tiger repair books, or check-out the Tiger/Alpine > >website tech sites, and learn some of the terminology. The broad strokes of > >car repair do have their own language, but it is easily and quickly >learned, > >especially by someone like you who is gifted with a good intellect but > >hampered by, forgive me, an attitude. This knowledge is what brings the > >group together, and allows us to explain our problems to each other, and > >understand the solutions known to others who have a deep interest in these > >cars and are willing to share their knowledge. > > >I suspect that I own more Sunbeam tech literature >than most on the List. None discuss "drop >spindles". I am waiting for someone to explain >the term in layman's terms. So far, all we know >is that they were offered on post-Tiger and >post-Alpine Sunbeam and Hillman cars. Now, WHAT >they are, no one has said, just that they were >available late in the Sunbeam game. > >Marc > > >msmall at aya.yale.edu >Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >Alpines at autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > >http://www.team.net/archive From carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 18 11:08:29 2009 From: carlynneracing at sbcglobal.net (Carl McLelland) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:08:29 -0800 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles References: <20091218044028.238DD18763E@autox.team.net><40CEBD6793EE4AA6AB402380A2B725A5@DavePC> <20091218172259.C8A821878D8@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <495DCA61FEDD4A54AFFB2EDE306E6AB3@owner33025ef87> Dear Mr. "SMALL", Can't stand this any longer. Obviously the 'Yale' email address you so proudly force upon us at the bottom of all your threads has little to do with your intellect. But then, that's "Ivy League", and janitor's and grounds keeper's have the same email address as professor's and learned scholar's. The truth is, there is no such thing as a dropped axle; that's why you've never read about it. That's one of those terms we neophytes like to toss around at parties to confuse those of you who pretend to be so learned. There are a series of books by Carroll Smith, but one in particular may be of interest to you. It's titled "Tune To Win, The Art and Science of Race Car Development and Tuning". It's Library of Congress Catalog Number 78-73549. I provide that information so you can check it out at the library. I'm sure your much too cheap to actually purchase it. Pay particular attention to Chapter Four: Suspension Geometry; although I'm certain you will derive far more benefit from simply memorizing some of the big, multi-syllable words like "Sliding Pillar Front Suspension", "Macpherson Strut", and here's a good Ivy League term... "DeDion Axle". You state in your previous email: "I never had any problem with Alpine handling". I would recommend updating that phrase; it's too widely used among "rolling roadblocks". By the way, my alma mater was Northwestern University Traffic Institute. Maybe the difference between you and I; in lieu of buying a title, I bought an education. Since I'm certain the list Gestapo will be barring me from these lists, I will be removing myself to spare them the effort. To all of you who were so helpful in my development years of restoring and racing my Alpine, I say "thank you". To those whom I have had the pleasure of assisting, it was my pleasure and I say good luck to all of you..... A select few of you have my personal contact information and I will continue to assist however I can. And for Mr. Small, I close with: "GET A LIFE!" ----- Original Message ----- From: Marc James Small To: Dave Munroe ; Alpine List ; tigers Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles At 10:07 AM 12/18/2009, Dave Munroe wrote: >Ask Santa for a couple of Tiger repair books, or check-out the Tiger/Alpine >website tech sites, and learn some of the terminology. The broad strokes of >car repair do have their own language, but it is easily and quickly learned, >especially by someone like you who is gifted with a good intellect but >hampered by, forgive me, an attitude. This knowledge is what brings the >group together, and allows us to explain our problems to each other, and >understand the solutions known to others who have a deep interest in these >cars and are willing to share their knowledge. I suspect that I own more Sunbeam tech literature than most on the List. None discuss "drop spindles". I am waiting for someone to explain the term in layman's terms. So far, all we know is that they were offered on post-Tiger and post-Alpine Sunbeam and Hillman cars. Now, WHAT they are, no one has said, just that they were available late in the Sunbeam game. Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From mototron at optonline.net Fri Dec 18 12:18:56 2009 From: mototron at optonline.net (Mototron) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] Drop Spindles Message-ID: <4B2BD5A0.9000303@optonline.net> BRAVO JARID Merry Christmas to All!!!! From marcsmall at comcast.net Fri Dec 18 12:40:43 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:40:43 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <20091218172300.0763C187904@autox.team.net> References: <772NLRqaN5352S28.1261152073@cmsweb28.cms.usa.net> <20091218172300.0763C187904@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <20091218194058.1A13518794B@autox.team.net> Thanks, guys. I see what a "drop spindle" is now. Never heard the term before but, then, I've never spent much time studying suspension geometries. I was always happy with Alpine handling. Marc msmall at aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! From paul at heuer.id.au Fri Dec 18 16:03:18 2009 From: paul at heuer.id.au (Paul Heuer) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:33:18 +1030 Subject: [Alpines] Something I don't understand (?auri) Message-ID: Lauri, A Rapier is a small knife (a fighting dagger) I think, so perhaps an Alpine is an even smaller one. Not sure if the saying si known in Finland, but 'stand and deliver' is olde speak for a hold up - as in 'give me your money. As in, first I produced a small knife, then a larger one, but he still wanted to take my money. Cheers, Paul. From marcsmall at comcast.net Fri Dec 18 19:30:55 2009 From: marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:30:55 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: References: <772NLRqaN5352S28.1261152073@cmsweb28.cms.usa.net> <20091218172300.0763C187904@autox.team.net> <20091218194057.ECDF51878FD@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <20091219023152.5322A187657@autox.team.net> At 06:22 PM 12/18/2009, michael king wrote: >2009/12/19 Marc James Small ><marcsmall at comcast.net> >Thanks, guys. I see what a "drop spindle" is >now. Never heard the term before but, then, I've >never spent much time studying suspension >geometries. I was always happy with Alpine handling. > > >Marc > > >Marc, > >I had sent you a series of diagrams explaining the drop spindles 18 >hours before you sent your email stating you understood what they >were and several emails after you continued to probe people on "what >they meant by....". I emailed you privately asking if you wanted >some illustrations to explain it, to which you responded you did and >then receieved. > >I cant imagine you are not having a bit of fun with the list >pleading such ignorance and lack of understanding.. given you did >not bother to acknowledge the mail i sent with the diagrams and the >fact you continued to probe peoples reposnse on the gorunds of >teminology i'd say you either have a lot of reading to do.. or to >much time on your hands.. last time i will bother putting in any >effort on this front. > > >-- >Regards > >Michael King Michael I have never received any follow-up e-mails from you. Comcast often dumps e-mails with attachments. That may have happened here. No need for them now. Best, Marc From gstrom99 at joimail.com Fri Dec 18 20:12:58 2009 From: gstrom99 at joimail.com (Gary) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:12:58 -0600 Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... References: <371620.11326.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anyone else remember the "gas heaters" the VW's had? We had to fix them at the dealerships... Man, those were scary. Gary From rootesrooter at aol.com Fri Dec 18 22:41:47 2009 From: rootesrooter at aol.com (rootesrooter at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:41:47 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles In-Reply-To: <20091219023152.5322A187657@autox.team.net> References: <772NLRqaN5352S28.1261152073@cmsweb28.cms.usa.net><20091218172300.0763C187904@autox.team.net><20091218194057.ECDF51878FD@autox.team.net> <20091219023152.5322A187657@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <8CC4E8516F101D5-39B4-698B@webmail-d069.sysops.aol.com> OK, I'll bite. Are we discussing the spindles from the Series VI Sunbeam Minx' that allow Tiger/Alpine owner to lower their front suspension by about an inch? -----Original Message----- From: Marc James Small To: michael king Cc: Alpine List ; tigers Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [Alpines] [Tigers] Drop Spindles At 06:22 PM 12/18/2009, michael king wrote: >2009/12/19 Marc James Small ><marcsmall at comcast.net> >Thanks, guys. I see what a "drop spindle" is >now. Never heard the term before but, then, I've >never spent much time studying suspension >geometries. I was always happy with Alpine handling. > > >Marc > > >Marc, > >I had sent you a series of diagrams explaining the drop spindles 18 >hours before you sent your email stating you understood what they >were and several emails after you continued to probe people on "what >they meant by....". I emailed you privately asking if you wanted >some illustrations to explain it, to which you responded you did and >then receieved. > >I cant imagine you are not having a bit of fun with the list >pleading such ignorance and lack of understanding.. given you did >not bother to acknowledge the mail i sent with the diagrams and the >fact you continued to probe peoples reposnse on the gorunds of >teminology i'd say you either have a lot of reading to do.. or to >much time on your hands.. last time i will bother putting in any >effort on this front. > > >-- >Regards > >Michael King Michael I have never received any follow-up e-mails from you. Comcast often dumps e-mails with attachments. That may have happened here. No need for them now. Best, Marc Alpines at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines http://www.team.net/archive From jan.eyerman at usa.net Sat Dec 19 07:20:42 2009 From: jan.eyerman at usa.net (Jan Eyerman) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:20:42 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... Message-ID: <431NLsoTQ7030S09.1261232442@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> Gary, Back in the "day" gas heaters were not uncommon. There were several different brands, the most famous being "South Wind". In addition to VW, Corvairs had one that was prone to explode so it was dropped after a year or so. My Dad's first Hillman (a Mark IV Minx-1951) came from Canada and had a British or Canadian made gas fired heater (it was a BIG brown boxlike affair under the center of the dash). It worked all too well in a car as small as a Minx and we often had to open the windows on even cold days to cool down the inside of the car. Probably the funniest thing to happen with that Minx was one day in winter when my father pulled into a gas station to get gas for it (at something like 25 cents a gallon), he got out of the car. He was a BIG man, formerly a semi-pro football player ( a CENTER!) and was wearing a big winter coat... the gas attendent said when he got out of the car, "aren't you cold without it on?". Both Pop and I roared with laughter (he also had a big sense of humor). Probably my worst Hillman experience in winter was when my wife and I drove from Albany to Rochester (New York) in mid winter in a 1960 Minx Series IIIA and the heater stopped working. We had to stop at every rest area on the NY Thruway to warm up! Fortunately the Hillman-Sunbeam dealer in Rochester was able to fix it (I think the control cable had broken). Jan Eyerman 1959 Hillman Minx Series III Special (solid black with a working heater) 1962 Hillman Minx Series IIIC Convertible ("Moonstone" and also with a working heater) ------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:13:10 PM EST From: "Gary" To: "jim williams" , , , , "Tony Somebody" , "Jan Eyerman" Subject: Re: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... Anyone else remember the "gas heaters" the VW's had? We had to fix them at the dealerships... Man, those were scary. Gary From sportsix63 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 19 09:06:30 2009 From: sportsix63 at yahoo.com (jim williams) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:06:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... In-Reply-To: <044d01ca809f$f95f7ae0$ec1e70a0$@mounce@hovacinc.com> Message-ID: <317736.68322.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I had one of those. It was the beer. Mine was so cold with the heater on I put up a blanket to try and seal off the back seat area. No such luck. Jim Williams Lewisburg, West Virginia --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Bill Mounce wrote: > From: Bill Mounce > Subject: RE: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... > To: "'Gary'" , "'jim williams'" , lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi, alpines at autox.team.net, jacranwell at aol.com, "'Tony Somebody'" , "'Jan Eyerman'" > Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 6:39 AM > My roomie had a Thing with one of > those optional heaters, man, did it pump > out the heat! (Or so I recall after lo, these many > years and beers!). > > B. > > -----Original Message----- > From: alpines-bounces at autox.team.net > [mailto:alpines-bounces at autox.team.net] > On Behalf Of Gary > Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:13 PM > To: jim williams; lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi; > alpines at autox.team.net; > jacranwell at aol.com; > Tony Somebody; Jan Eyerman > Subject: Re: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... > > Anyone else remember the "gas heaters" the VW's had? > We had to fix them at > the dealerships... Man, those were scary. > > Gary > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Alpines at autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/alpines > > http://www.team.net/archive From achd73 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 19 15:03:21 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:03:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] 1725 flat top pistons Message-ID: <560062.82927.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Im looking for a set of new or used 1725 flat top pistons. Im 99% sure I didnt have to have the engine bored but Im not opposed since the engine is still at the machine shop. Please contact me off list IF you can help or have knowledge of where I might find a set.Cheers, Happy Holidays to EVERYONE. TonytheTiger From JACranwell at aol.com Sun Dec 20 11:56:09 2009 From: JACranwell at aol.com (JACranwell at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:56:09 EST Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... Message-ID: I remember a VW my Pa had, a 411 I think. It was a rear engined estate with a gas fired central heating system. I never quite worked out how it worked. I now have a BMW 528i with a programmable heater system, and I still don't know how it works. I suspect magic and a midget dragon under the hood! Julian. From jan.eyerman at usa.net Sun Dec 20 13:39:50 2009 From: jan.eyerman at usa.net (Jan Eyerman) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:39:50 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... Message-ID: <307NLTuMY1582S29.1261341590@cmsweb29.cms.usa.net> The nice thing about an Alpine heater is how simple it is.... when the engine heats up enough you toggle a lever on the dashboard that opens a water valve into the heater core (kind of like a small radiator) and also opens various flaps inside the heater to direct outside (cold) air either through the core (for hot air) or bypasses it (for cooler air) or a little of both. There is also another flap that directs air to the windshield for defrosting. The only problem is that the engine really doesn't produce enough heat in cold weather to really warm up the inside of the car (especially without a hardtop!). That is one reason why my Rootes cars spend the winter tucked away in storage. Jan Eyerman ------ Original Message ------ Received: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:57:20 PM EST From: JACranwell at aol.com To: gstrom99 at joimail.com, sportsix63 at yahoo.com, lehtinen.lauri at kolumbus.fi, alpines at autox.team.net, achd73 at yahoo.com, jan.eyerman at usa.net Subject: Re: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... I remember a VW my Pa had, a 411 I think. It was a rear engined estate with a gas fired central heating system. I never quite worked out how it worked. I now have a BMW 528i with a programmable heater system, and I still don't know how it works. I suspect magic and a midget dragon under the hood! Julian. From achd73 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 20 21:15:52 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:15:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... In-Reply-To: <307NLTuMY1582S29.1261341590@cmsweb29.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <385536.49839.qm@web30402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jan- the secret is cardboard in front of the radiator. have a door or 3 sided window in the middle- you can open if it gets to hot- dont want to blow a head gasket. I just drove my Tiger back from WVa to southern IL. and I was freezing- plenty of cold air leaks even with a hardtop. Of course many can be fixed with some attention to existing seals. Im lucky my Tiger runs cool- perhaps cooler than anyones Tiger in the summer. My friend insisted at SUNI the gauge was broke or the sending unit bad. I told him to wait until we had to stop and go for a peorid of time and he would see and feel the engine getting hotter. Over T'giving it was running 170- not hot enough to make the engine run well. I stopped at a gas station and w/ my razor knife made a cardboard template and blocked the radiator. Temp went up to 200 and I stuffed some paper towells in the gaps under the hardtop.I like driving of the night. Fewer law officers and less traffic. I also tend to drive a bit faster. For anyone that makes notes, the engine ran much better at 200 vs. 170. Gas milage went up as did power. The sbf engine isnt suppose to be that cold at top speed. I have an AMC 5 speed and my speedodmeter is on my GPS- I tried to keep it below 2400 rpms or I was worried about a ticket. It is nice that most states now have 70 mph speed limits- except IL. of course but they are raising truckers to 65 after the first of the year. Cars wherent mentioned in the news article. SO, you can drive a Beam, 4 or 8 cylinder year round. I did so from 1972 thru 1982 and although I would like to keep my cars in a warm garage from cold weather until spring, I drove the Tiger to the garage tonight and with luck will get it out on those days that for no reason, it warms up enough I can run some oil thru the engine, some fluid thru the water passages and get the thrill Ive been getting since my very first Tiger ride. With luck by spring my S5 Alpine will be almost as fun- if you have an Alpine, OD makes it a completely different car.So much so when I purchased it, I flew to Phenoix, drove to Austin- burning a hole thru number 1 just short of Austin- fix the piston, stopped in Dallas to visit friends and those miles where about how many I was short of getting home before I lost a bearing cap off number 3 , I think it was. I shouldnt have tried starting it as I shut it down before any damage was done BUT no signal, 3 a.m. and I wasnt sure why oil pressure was jumping around when I killed the engine- live and learn. Alpines can be as much fun as some Tigers- but if possible dont drive them in the snow. I did but in those days I had to or maybe I just wanted to. Merry Xmas to EVERYONE TonytheTiger PS- Im going to pull the thermostat and check it w/a thermometer and hot water to see if its stuck open or opening pretemp. From jan.eyerman at usa.net Mon Dec 21 09:05:51 2009 From: jan.eyerman at usa.net (Jan Eyerman) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:05:51 -0500 Subject: [Alpines] OFF TOPIC SNOW..... Message-ID: <955NLuqez7422S19.1261411551@cmsweb19.cms.usa.net> Back in the day..... I used to use a pair of brown paper supermarket bags to block off the radiator. They would slip in easily from the top and I could move them around to let more or less air through. This worked fine with all of my older Rootes cars but was a total failure on my 1969 Sunbeam Alpine GT (fastback). It seems those cars use a special thermostat that closes off the heater connection when the thermostat fully opens... this keeps the heater from bleeding any heat into the car in warm weather. A good idea, but one that precludes blocking off the radiator in winter! Jan Eyerman From achd73 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 21 10:08:11 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:08:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] 1954 Sunbeam Message-ID: <527856.64268.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://us.mc304.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.gx=1&.tm=1261414356&.rand=063gsdh5 8uloo#_pg=showMessage&sMid=9&&filterBy=&.rand=733676384&midIndex=9&mid=1_1647 9326_AG7IjkQAANIFSy9yvwiJex1kgTM&m=1_16484072_AGzIjkQAAJh5Sy%2BEqAhOOFVCP2c,1 _16483454_AGnIjkQAANYcSy%2BAeQCKjTAR%2BxQ,1_16481883_AGrIjkQAAL4eSy958AukqWm3 Q3w,1_16480725_AG7IjkQAANwfSy9zTApP8mwy6ac,1_16480106_AGjIjkQAAJ1OSy9y7AIMdGG vWnc,1_16479326_AG7IjkQAANIFSy9yvwiJex1kgTM,1_16481352_AG%2FIjkQAAT7oSy91CgN4 iWkwTxo,1_16478818_AGzIjkQAAAPjSy9yawrpkVKn%2Fnw,1_16478216_AGzIjkQAAX3aSy9xX QMfqQ8NGUg,1_16477485_AG7IjkQAAML1Sy9xQgVaLzVn8oQ,1_16476801_AG7IjkQAALVWSy9v 2wVRejZ39SU,&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&hash=4fd60e313333b44599fd4e7deaf b7c4f&.jsrand=2624653 I dont know if this link will show up but it has a 1954 Sunbeam in Nevada- prolly a parts car but who knows- its in a dry climate. it was on "Bring a Trailer"an email I receive daily- Im sure many either know about it or get it themselves. Thought I would attempt to pass it on. TtT From achd73 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 21 11:43:52 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:43:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] Im trying- Im sure the pic wont send but its on Craigs list- I will also tray again to send a link Message-ID: <323792.89185.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nevada Washout Find: 1954 Sunbeam Alpine This 1954 Sunbeam Alpine is one of several cars offered by a Nevada property owner. The car looks reasonably intact and wears a very early black plate. We suspect that even just a few parts from this car are worth the asking price, and an ambitions restorer might be able to salvage the car. Find it here on Craigslist somewhere near Carson City, Nevada for $1200. Special thanks to Norm W. for this submission! From achd73 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 21 11:51:20 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:51:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] Fw: Message-ID: <20409.28776.qm@web30402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I got it to work for me- now lets see if I can manage to get it to you via the LIST. Sorry for the earlier mistake. TtT http://bringatrailer.com/2009/12/21/nevada-washout-find-1954-sunbeam-alpine/#more- From cmeinel464 at aol.com Thu Dec 24 12:38:16 2009 From: cmeinel464 at aol.com (cmeinel464 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:38:16 EST Subject: [Alpines] Happy Holidays Message-ID: <7148.2713883c.38651d28@aol.com> To all the Alpine & Tiger owners: Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and have a great New Year... Curt & Patti Meinel Classic Sunbeam Inc. From achd73 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 24 17:44:06 2009 From: achd73 at yahoo.com (Tony Somebody) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:44:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Alpines] [Tigers] Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <350640.60054.qm@web111613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <533920.59866.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Truer words have never been spoken, typed, written, quoted or passed on to such a great group of people- from the arch in St.Louis to both coast and our brothers across the pond(s). May ye ALL have the bestus Christmas since your childhood, your childrens smile to large for the digital cameras and the grandchildren in their teens before they admitt who Santa really is. Today I am THNAKFUL to be alive and for all my friends to be celebrating what tomorrow really is. I hope we all remember to give him THANKS prior to eating Christmas dinner. happiest Holidays everyone. TonytheTiger --- On Thu, 12/24/09, David T Johnson wrote: From: David T Johnson Subject: [Tigers] Merry Christmas To: Tigers at autox.team.net Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 6:17 PM Listers Its great to be alive and celebrating Christmas as Tony T will tell you. Dave You are subscribed as achd73 at yahoo.com Tigers at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive