Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Paint <[email-masked]> <zmagnette.autox.team.net>

From: "Steve Kirby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:53:41 -0800

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Scott--

You're right, you are going to get overwhelmed with opinions and ideas, =
and likely, most of them will be fine.  I think prepping a car for a =
good paint job is a lot like being around a bunch of good cooks.  They =
are all going to have different ways to make the best marinara sauce, =
but I betcha in the end, they will all be great.

If you want, I once put down on paper, for a fellow Club member, =
more-or-less how I've done it.  But, I won't send it unless you want it. =
 Like you've already correctly observed, you are likely to get =
overwhelmed.

The other thing I would "warn" you against is that I've often been =
around folks who insist you must use "brand X's ____________".  That's =
BS.  There's a lot of good companies out there, and as long as you are =
using compatible, QUALITY products, it (IMHO), doesn't matter a hoot =
which brand you use, and to an even more controversial opinion, you can =
even mix/match stages, as long as you are following the advice of =
someone who knows what the heck they are doing.

Thus, my one "ABSOLUTE" bit of advice would be to get hooked up with a =
quality auto body supplier in your area.  Find the person who knows =
their stuff, AND STICK WITH THAT PERSON.  If you are  like a friend of =
mine who insists on shopping the best price for every little thing he =
needs, including on-line, and drive to each of 358 stores in the area to =
save 3 cents on a gallon of ________, then you will never build a good =
relationship/rapport with a person who can tell you how to substitute =
certain things for the more expensive things and save some real money, =
and can answer that question of " . . . why is my surfacer coming off" =
and those types of things.  For an example, I do like PPG paint =
products, but they are very expensive.  If you believe the advice of =
some, then you should use EVERYthing PPG . . . gosh, PPG abrasive paper, =
PPG measuring cups, PPG funnels, PPG lacquer thinner, PPG epoxy sealer, =
blah, blah, blah.  You will know you are doing it right, when the CEO of =
PPG sends you a bottle of 50 yr. old Scotch for your birthday.

However, a good supplier will tell you that you can readily subsitute =
other (even) less expensive PPG products for some of the prep stages.  =
Or gosh golly, even use a totally different brand of better surfacer, =
saving about $200 per gallon.  I won't bore you with the names of what I =
use, 'cuz I live in CA, and we have things you can't buy (and probably =
don't want to buy  . . . . $$$$), and you probably have access to a =
wider variety of products, no doubt at a reduced price.

In the briefest note possible, I'll throw this out there, and then =
everyone else can whack it to pieces.  Based on the fact you said you're =
already down to mostly bare metal (Re-reading, this, it is far longer =
than I anticipated, but I still consider it a BRIEF summary!!!!  This is =
a complex topic, IMHO!!!!)"

Use a self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.  No need nowadays to use a =
separate self-etching primer.

Do your initial repairs . . . . banging out, metal work, filling of =
deepest/worse areas. =20

Re-apply the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer in any areas where =
you may have exposed bare metal.  The idea is never to have actual bare =
metal . . . at this stage.  If you've only got a few, very small bare =
areas, you might want to buy some self-etching sealer in a spray can.  =
Tis expensive, about $18 for a large spray can, but it beats, sometimes, =
making up your spray gun, cleaning, etc.

Don't try and get the surface perfect yet.  Use a good quality filler, =
if needed, and long boards or foam boards to around 120.  The sealer =
you've applied thus far is really NOT "surfacer", it is not intended for =
a surface finish, in fact, it is not even intended to be "sanded" at =
all.  Don't panic, you're no where's near done here . . . your filled =
repairs are still rough, and you no doubt still have scratchs, maybe =
even some very small dings.

Apply a good coat of a good quality surfacer.  You get what you pay for. =
 Super cheap surfacer is exactly that.  Do NOT buy anything that claims =
to seal and surface (and cure cancer) in the same can.

Additional filler repairs can continue.  If your repair is "almost" =
perfect, just needs a "wee bit" more, now you move up to what is =
commonly called a "skim" product, intended to be put no more than a =
1/16" or so thick, and mostly sanded off.  The beauty of these products =
is that they go on much easier, and sand off so much easier.  There are =
different "grades" of skim products, I actually use a third, very fine =
one . . . like if I see an air bubble, or a scratch.  Don't fill these =
minor imperfections with your "basic filler" stuff . . . .it is too =
thick, too heavy, and too hard to get a fine surface when sanding.  This =
is one of the biggest lessons I've learned, in the fairly recent past.  =
You might be saying "OK, why not just use that "skim" stuff for the deep =
repairs?"  'Cuz it does not have the strength of the good filler =
products.  Most filler products have some kind of reinforced fiberglass =
in them.  One brand I would recommend is MarGlass . . . for a deep =
repair, where metalwork just has not totally worked.  Normal depth =
repairs are done with a "regular" fill product, which your supplier can =
recommend.  I have my favorites.  You now commonly ready in magazines =
that the entire car was skimmed.  I don't do that, but I understand why  =
. . .=20

Continue to apply surfacer as needed.  You will keep moving up the "grit =
scale", to around 280 or so "dry".

Now, buy a spray can of "Guide coat", which you apply very lightly . . . =
creating a speckle/overspray kind of coat.  Do not try to save $8 bucks =
here and use flat black spray paint.  Did that once . . . not good.  =
Now, using around 280 or so, either a long board or long foam piece, =
sand across contours, with 2 - 3 good strokes.  Immediately, you will =
observe the low spots.  How low?  A tad bit?  May be able to bring up =
with a heavy application of surfacer.  Miss a ding or much deeper?  May =
need to go back to filler or skim.  I'm currently helping a Club member =
with his B.  He had it professionally painted.  Terrible paint job.  I =
didn't want to say anything, but in short, no one guide coated that car. =
 There are a dozen or so very visible dings just on the back end of the =
car.  Sad.

Repeat the above steps until, when you guide coat, with only 2 - 3 =
strokes, it is perfect.  Don't get "cute" and say "Oh, I can sand that =
black stuff out of there!!!!"  Sure you can, but you're only cheating =
yourself.

Should, at any point, you hit bare metal, hit it with self-etching, =
epoxy - catalytic sealer

Once the guide coat is perfect, now lay in a supply of perhaps 320 (I =
usually skip the 320 stage), and 400 wet-or-dry.  Now, you proceed to =
wet sand the car.  An empty spray bottle of water is helpful.  Lots of =
water.  When this stage is done, you go over the car with a good, strong =
light . . . looking for scratches or other imperfections.  Never kid =
yourself that the color coat" will take care of it, or hide it.  =
Actually, color coat will make most imperfections look far worse.  Any =
problems, fix 'em now.  You can buy a "variety" pack of the various =
shapes of the "new" foam blocks . . . highly recommeded.

Apply one final coat of self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.  This =
stuff is the "new" magic.  It absolutely allows your color coat to bond. =
 TRY to the color coat as quickly as possible to the application of the =
self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer -- with some brands, like within =
TEN minutes.  Do NOT sand or abrade the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer--you do NOT want to scratch or penetrate the self-etching, epoxy =
- catalytic sealer with anything like a scratch.  Working alone, I find =
I can't do this step "properly" (meaning that quickly), but it still =
seems to work OK.  The PPG rep would probably say otherwise.

One "trick" I might throw in here, is this:  With the high cost of good =
paint, I will use a lesser quality paint, of the same type and color =
(duh) for things like the interior (all covred over anyway), inside =
fender wells, the boot, the engine bay, inside/under the boot/boonet =
lids, etc.  Thus, I may only need 1 gallon of the really expensive =
stuff, and 1 gallon of the other.  A local company, which is becoming =
huge, and has a huge online presence, is TCP Global.  They make (I =
believe made by ValSpar . . . now a much bigger player in the auto =
refinishing business -- having bought out a few other companies =
recently) their own brand of polyurethane paint, totally compatible with =
things like PPG Concept, at about 1/4 the price.  I find it easier to =
spray and work with than the good stuff!  I'm tempted to do an entire =
car with it.  We'll see . . . but I've already bought the PPG paint for =
the Magnette . . . so whatever car comes up after the Magnette!!!! =20

Spray the color coat . . . the easy part, actually,  You've done all the =
hard work above.  Put on plenty of paint (at least 3 - 4 "double" =
coats), so you have plenty to color sand/buff.

Color Sand

Buff

We'll cover those two stages later!

Collect your First place trophy

You might say "Wow, that is too much work.  I'll just let a shop do it." =
 Sure, most folks do, and you can get some great jobs out there.  What =
I've observed so often, is that naturally, you don't want to spend more =
money that necessary, so the shop sounds good, and you go with them.  =
Sometimes, the results are fantastic, and sometimes they are horrid.    =
I've seen some great jobs at reasonable prices, and I've also seen some =
dowright awful jobs, where folks paid waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much =
money.  There are some real craftsman out there, and there are some real =
hacks.  If I was going to have a shop do it, I'd insist on seeing past =
customer's cars.  Don't just listen to their speel.  I'd make sure they =
list what they are going to do, step-by-step.  I'd be dropping by often =
to make sure they are doing it.  I want to say you are going to get what =
you pay for, but that doesn't always seem to be the case.  I will say =
this:  I've been asked to paint other people's cars.  I simply =
can't/won't.  I'm way too slow, and make mistakes.  The cost of =
materials, for me, far exceeds what I see people getting their cars =
painted for.  IF I was to paint a Magnette, which I will be doing one of =
these fine milleniums, which did not need extensive metal work, rust =
repair or welding, I would start at $10,000.  I know you just flipped, =
but I think that is realistic for a really good paint job. =20

 . . . and Happy Holidays.

#2SteveK

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Scott Woolman=20
  To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America=20
  Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 10:43 AM
  Subject: [Zmagnette] Paint

  At a risk of getting overwhelmed with opinions. Here is my question. =
My MG is down to metal  all rust and body is done. Should I use an =
acrylic etching primer then a sandable primer.=20
  Thanks
  Scott  =20

  Sent from my iPhone
  _______________________________________________
  Zmagnette mailing list

  Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
  Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
  Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
  Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]

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<DIV>Scott--</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You're right, you are going to get overwhelmed with opinions and =
ideas, and=20
likely, most of them will be fine.&nbsp; I think prepping a car for a =
good paint=20
job is a lot like being around a bunch of good cooks.&nbsp; They are all =
going=20
to have different ways to make the best marinara sauce, but I betcha in =
the end,=20
they will all be great.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If you want, I once put down on paper, for a fellow Club member,=20
more-or-less how I've done it.&nbsp; But, I won't send it unless you =
want=20
it.&nbsp; Like you've already correctly observed, you are likely to get=20
overwhelmed.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The other thing I would "warn" you against is that I've often been =
around=20
folks who insist you must use "brand X's ____________".&nbsp; That's =
BS.&nbsp;=20
There's a lot of good companies out there, and as long as you are using=20
compatible, QUALITY products, it (IMHO), doesn't matter a hoot which =
brand you=20
use, and to an even more controversial opinion, you can even mix/match =
stages,=20
as long as you are following the advice of someone who knows what the =
heck they=20
are doing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thus, my one "ABSOLUTE" bit of advice would be to get hooked up =
with a=20
quality auto body supplier in your area.&nbsp; Find the person who knows =
their=20
stuff, AND STICK WITH THAT PERSON.&nbsp; If you are &nbsp;like a friend =
of mine=20
who insists on shopping the best price for every little thing he needs,=20
including on-line, and drive to each of 358 stores in the area to save 3 =
cents=20
on a gallon of ________, then you will never build a good =
relationship/rapport=20
with a person who can tell you how to substitute certain things for the =
more=20
expensive things and save some real money, and can answer that question =
of " . .=20
. why is my surfacer coming off" and those types of things.&nbsp; For an =

example, I do like PPG paint products, but they are very =
expensive.&nbsp; If you=20
believe the advice of some, then you should use EVERYthing PPG . . . =
gosh, PPG=20
abrasive paper, PPG measuring cups, PPG funnels, PPG lacquer thinner, =
PPG epoxy=20
sealer, blah, blah, blah.&nbsp; You will know you are doing it right, =
when the=20
CEO of PPG sends you a bottle of 50 yr. old Scotch for your =
birthday.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>However, a good supplier will tell you that you can readily =
subsitute other=20
(even) less expensive PPG products for some of the prep stages.&nbsp; Or =
gosh=20
golly, even use a totally different brand of better surfacer, saving =
about $200=20
per gallon.&nbsp; I won't bore you with the names of what I use, 'cuz I =
live in=20
CA, and we have things you can't buy (and probably don't want to =
buy&nbsp; . . .=20
. $$$$), and you probably have access to a wider variety of =
products,&nbsp;no=20
doubt&nbsp;at a reduced price.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In the briefest note possible, I'll throw this out there, and then =
everyone=20
else can whack it to pieces.&nbsp; Based on the fact you said you're =
already=20
down to mostly bare metal (Re-reading, this, it is far longer than I=20
anticipated, but I still consider it a BRIEF summary!!!!&nbsp; This is a =
complex=20
topic, IMHO!!!!)"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Use a self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.&nbsp; No need =
nowadays to use=20
a separate self-etching primer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Do your initial repairs . . . . banging out, metal work, filling of =

deepest/worse areas.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Re-apply the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer in any areas =
where you=20
may have exposed bare metal.&nbsp; The idea is <U>never </U>to have =
actual bare=20
metal . . . at this stage.&nbsp; If you've only got a few, very small =
bare=20
areas, you might want to buy&nbsp;some self-etching sealer in a spray =
can.&nbsp;=20
Tis expensive, about $18 for a large spray can, but it beats, sometimes, =
making=20
up your spray gun, cleaning, etc.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Don't try and get the surface perfect yet.&nbsp; Use a good quality =
filler,=20
if needed, and long boards or foam boards to around 120.&nbsp; The =
sealer you've=20
applied thus far is really NOT "surfacer", it is not intended for a =
surface=20
finish, in fact, it is not even intended to be "sanded" at all.&nbsp; =
Don't=20
panic, you're no where's near done here . . . your filled repairs are =
still=20
rough, and you no doubt still have scratchs, maybe even some very small=20
dings.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Apply a good coat of a good quality surfacer.&nbsp; You get what =
you pay=20
for.&nbsp; Super cheap surfacer is exactly that.&nbsp; Do NOT buy =
anything that=20
claims to seal and surface (and cure cancer) in the same can.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Additional filler repairs can continue.&nbsp; If your repair is =
"almost"=20
perfect, just needs a "wee bit" more, now you move up to what is =
commonly called=20
a "skim" product, intended to be put no more than a 1/16" or so thick, =
and=20
mostly sanded off.&nbsp; The beauty of these products is that they go on =
much=20
easier, and sand off so much easier.&nbsp; There are different "grades" =
of skim=20
products, I actually use a third, very fine one . . . like if I see an =
air=20
bubble, or a scratch.&nbsp; Don't fill these minor imperfections with =
your=20
"basic filler" stuff . . . .it is too thick, too heavy, and too hard to =
get a=20
fine surface when sanding.&nbsp; This is one of the biggest lessons I've =

learned, in the fairly recent past.&nbsp; You might be saying "OK, why =
not just=20
use that "skim" stuff for the deep repairs?"&nbsp; 'Cuz it does not have =
the=20
strength of the good filler products.&nbsp; Most filler products have =
some kind=20
of reinforced fiberglass in them.&nbsp; One brand I would recommend is =
MarGlass=20
. . . for a deep repair, where metalwork just has not totally =
worked.&nbsp;=20
Normal depth repairs are done with a "regular" fill product, which your =
supplier=20
can recommend.&nbsp; I have my favorites.&nbsp; You now commonly ready =
in=20
magazines that the entire car was skimmed.&nbsp; I don't do that, but I=20
understand why&nbsp; . . . </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Continue to apply surfacer as needed.&nbsp; You will keep moving up =
the=20
"grit scale", to around 280 or so "dry".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Now, buy a spray can of "Guide coat", which you apply very lightly =
. . .=20
creating a speckle/overspray kind of coat.&nbsp; Do not try to save $8 =
bucks=20
here and use flat black spray paint.&nbsp; Did that once . . . not =
good.&nbsp;=20
Now, using around 280 or so, either a long board or long foam piece, =
sand across=20
contours, with 2 - 3 good strokes.&nbsp; Immediately, you will observe =
the low=20
spots.&nbsp; How low?&nbsp; A tad bit?&nbsp; May be able to bring up =
with a=20
heavy application of surfacer.&nbsp; Miss a ding or much deeper?&nbsp; =
May need=20
to go back to filler or skim.&nbsp; I'm currently helping a Club member =
with his=20
B.&nbsp; He had it professionally painted.&nbsp; Terrible paint =
job.&nbsp; I=20
didn't want to say anything, but in short, no one guide coated that =
car.&nbsp;=20
There are a dozen or so very visible dings just on the back end of the=20
car.&nbsp; Sad.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Repeat the above steps until, when you guide coat, with only 2 - 3 =
strokes,=20
it is perfect.&nbsp; Don't get "cute" and say "Oh, I can sand that black =
stuff=20
out of there!!!!"&nbsp; Sure you can, but you're only cheating =
yourself.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Should, at any point, you hit bare metal, hit it with self-etching, =
epoxy -=20
catalytic sealer</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Once the guide coat is perfect, now lay in a supply of perhaps 320 =
(I=20
usually skip the 320 stage), and 400 wet-or-dry.&nbsp; Now, you proceed =
to wet=20
sand the car.&nbsp; An empty spray bottle of water is helpful.&nbsp; =
Lots of=20
water.&nbsp; When this stage is done, you go over the car with a good, =
strong=20
light . . . looking for scratches or other imperfections.&nbsp; Never =
kid=20
yourself that the color coat" will take care of it, or hide it.&nbsp; =
Actually,=20
color coat will make most imperfections look far worse.&nbsp; Any =
problems, fix=20
'em now.&nbsp; You can buy a "variety" pack of the various shapes of the =
"new"=20
foam blocks . . . highly recommeded.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Apply one final coat of self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer.&nbsp; This=20
stuff is the "new" magic.&nbsp; It absolutely allows your color coat to=20
bond.&nbsp; TRY to the color coat as quickly as possible to the =
application of=20
the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer -- with some brands, like =
within TEN=20
minutes.&nbsp; Do NOT sand or abrade the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =

sealer--you do NOT want to scratch or penetrate the self-etching, epoxy =
-=20
catalytic sealer with anything like a scratch.&nbsp; Working alone, I =
find I=20
can't do this step "properly" (meaning that quickly), but it still seems =
to work=20
OK.&nbsp; The PPG rep would probably say otherwise.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>One "trick" I might throw in here, is this:&nbsp; With the high =
cost of=20
good paint, I will use a lesser quality paint, of the same type and =
color (duh)=20
for things like the interior (all covred over anyway), inside fender =
wells, the=20
boot, the engine bay, inside/under the boot/boonet lids, etc.&nbsp; =
Thus, I may=20
only need 1 gallon of the really expensive stuff, and 1 gallon of the=20
other.&nbsp; A local company, which is becoming huge, and has a huge =
online=20
presence, is TCP Global.&nbsp; They make (I believe&nbsp;made =
by&nbsp;ValSpar .=20
. . now a much bigger player in the auto refinishing business -- having =
bought=20
out a few other companies recently) their own brand of polyurethane =
paint,=20
totally compatible with things like PPG Concept, at about 1/4 the =
price.&nbsp; I=20
find it easier to spray and work with than the good stuff!&nbsp; I'm =
tempted to=20
do an entire car with it.&nbsp; We'll see . . . but I've already bought =
the PPG=20
paint for the Magnette . . . so whatever car comes up after the=20
Magnette!!!!&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Spray the color coat . . . the easy part, actually,&nbsp; You've =
done all=20
the hard work above.&nbsp; Put on plenty of paint (at least 3 - 4 =
"double"=20
coats), so you have plenty to color sand/buff.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Color Sand</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Buff</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We'll cover those two stages later!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Collect your First place trophy</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You might say "Wow, that is too much work.&nbsp; I'll just let a =
shop do=20
it."&nbsp; Sure, most folks do, and you can get some great jobs out =
there.&nbsp;=20
What I've observed so often, is that naturally, you don't want to spend =
more=20
money that necessary, so the shop sounds good, and you go with =
them.&nbsp;=20
Sometimes, the results are fantastic, and sometimes they are=20
horrid.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've seen some great jobs at reasonable =
prices, and=20
I've also seen some dowright awful jobs, where folks paid=20
waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much money.&nbsp; There are some real =
craftsman out=20
there, and there are some real hacks.&nbsp; If I was going to have a =
shop do it,=20
I'd insist on seeing past customer's cars.&nbsp; Don't just listen to =
their=20
speel.&nbsp; I'd make sure they list what they are going to do,=20
step-by-step.&nbsp; I'd be dropping by often to make sure they are doing =

it.&nbsp; I want to say you are going to get what you pay for, but that =
doesn't=20
always seem to be the case.&nbsp; I will say this:&nbsp; I've been asked =
to=20
paint other people's cars.&nbsp; I simply can't/won't.&nbsp; I'm way too =
slow,=20
and make mistakes.&nbsp; The cost of materials, for me, far exceeds what =
I see=20
people getting their cars painted for.&nbsp; IF I was to paint a =
Magnette, which=20
I will be doing one of these fine milleniums, which did not need =
extensive metal=20
work, rust repair or welding, I would start at $10,000.&nbsp; I know you =
just=20
flipped, but I think that is realistic for a really good paint =
job.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;. . . and Happy Holidays.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>#2SteveK</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Scott Woolman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group =
- North=20
  America</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 25, =
2013 10:43=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>At a risk of getting overwhelmed with opinions. Here is =
my=20
  question. My MG is down to metal&nbsp; all rust and body is done. =
Should I use=20
  an acrylic etching primer then a sandable primer.=20
  <BR>Thanks<BR>Scott&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>Sent from my=20
  iPhone<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette =
mailing=20
  list<BR><BR>Donate: <A=20
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From: Scott Woolman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 21:46:49 -0800

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Steve&nbsp;</div><div>Thank you. great &nbsp;info.<br>Scott<br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Dec 25, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Steve Kirby" &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>

<meta content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23543">
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<div>Scott--</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>You're right, you are going to get overwhelmed with opinions and ideas, and 
likely, most of them will be fine.&nbsp; I think prepping a car for a good paint 
job is a lot like being around a bunch of good cooks.&nbsp; They are all going 
to have different ways to make the best marinara sauce, but I betcha in the end, 
they will all be great.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>If you want, I once put down on paper, for a fellow Club member, 
more-or-less how I've done it.&nbsp; But, I won't send it unless you want 
it.&nbsp; Like you've already correctly observed, you are likely to get 
overwhelmed.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The other thing I would "warn" you against is that I've often been around 
folks who insist you must use "brand X's ____________".&nbsp; That's BS.&nbsp; 
There's a lot of good companies out there, and as long as you are using 
compatible, QUALITY products, it (IMHO), doesn't matter a hoot which brand you 
use, and to an even more controversial opinion, you can even mix/match stages, 
as long as you are following the advice of someone who knows what the heck they 
are doing.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thus, my one "ABSOLUTE" bit of advice would be to get hooked up with a 
quality auto body supplier in your area.&nbsp; Find the person who knows their 
stuff, AND STICK WITH THAT PERSON.&nbsp; If you are &nbsp;like a friend of mine 
who insists on shopping the best price for every little thing he needs, 
including on-line, and drive to each of 358 stores in the area to save 3 cents 
on a gallon of ________, then you will never build a good relationship/rapport 
with a person who can tell you how to substitute certain things for the more 
expensive things and save some real money, and can answer that question of " . . 
. why is my surfacer coming off" and those types of things.&nbsp; For an 
example, I do like PPG paint products, but they are very expensive.&nbsp; If you 
believe the advice of some, then you should use EVERYthing PPG . . . gosh, PPG 
abrasive paper, PPG measuring cups, PPG funnels, PPG lacquer thinner, PPG epoxy 
sealer, blah, blah, blah.&nbsp; You will know you are doing it right, when the 
CEO of PPG sends you a bottle of 50 yr. old Scotch for your birthday.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>However, a good supplier will tell you that you can readily subsitute other 
(even) less expensive PPG products for some of the prep stages.&nbsp; Or gosh 
golly, even use a totally different brand of better surfacer, saving about $200 
per gallon.&nbsp; I won't bore you with the names of what I use, 'cuz I live in 
CA, and we have things you can't buy (and probably don't want to buy&nbsp; . . . 
. $$$$), and you probably have access to a wider variety of products,&nbsp;no 
doubt&nbsp;at a reduced price.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>In the briefest note possible, I'll throw this out there, and then everyone 
else can whack it to pieces.&nbsp; Based on the fact you said you're already 
down to mostly bare metal (Re-reading, this, it is far longer than I 
anticipated, but I still consider it a BRIEF summary!!!!&nbsp; This is a complex 
topic, IMHO!!!!)"</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Use a self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.&nbsp; No need nowadays to use 
a separate self-etching primer.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Do your initial repairs . . . . banging out, metal work, filling of 
deepest/worse areas.&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Re-apply the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer in any areas where you 
may have exposed bare metal.&nbsp; The idea is <u>never </u>to have actual bare 
metal . . . at this stage.&nbsp; If you've only got a few, very small bare 
areas, you might want to buy&nbsp;some self-etching sealer in a spray can.&nbsp; 
Tis expensive, about $18 for a large spray can, but it beats, sometimes, making 
up your spray gun, cleaning, etc.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Don't try and get the surface perfect yet.&nbsp; Use a good quality filler, 
if needed, and long boards or foam boards to around 120.&nbsp; The sealer you've 
applied thus far is really NOT "surfacer", it is not intended for a surface 
finish, in fact, it is not even intended to be "sanded" at all.&nbsp; Don't 
panic, you're no where's near done here . . . your filled repairs are still 
rough, and you no doubt still have scratchs, maybe even some very small 
dings.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Apply a good coat of a good quality surfacer.&nbsp; You get what you pay 
for.&nbsp; Super cheap surfacer is exactly that.&nbsp; Do NOT buy anything that 
claims to seal and surface (and cure cancer) in the same can.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Additional filler repairs can continue.&nbsp; If your repair is "almost" 
perfect, just needs a "wee bit" more, now you move up to what is commonly called 
a "skim" product, intended to be put no more than a 1/16" or so thick, and 
mostly sanded off.&nbsp; The beauty of these products is that they go on much 
easier, and sand off so much easier.&nbsp; There are different "grades" of skim 
products, I actually use a third, very fine one . . . like if I see an air 
bubble, or a scratch.&nbsp; Don't fill these minor imperfections with your 
"basic filler" stuff . . . .it is too thick, too heavy, and too hard to get a 
fine surface when sanding.&nbsp; This is one of the biggest lessons I've 
learned, in the fairly recent past.&nbsp; You might be saying "OK, why not just 
use that "skim" stuff for the deep repairs?"&nbsp; 'Cuz it does not have the 
strength of the good filler products.&nbsp; Most filler products have some kind 
of reinforced fiberglass in them.&nbsp; One brand I would recommend is MarGlass 
. . . for a deep repair, where metalwork just has not totally worked.&nbsp; 
Normal depth repairs are done with a "regular" fill product, which your supplier 
can recommend.&nbsp; I have my favorites.&nbsp; You now commonly ready in 
magazines that the entire car was skimmed.&nbsp; I don't do that, but I 
understand why&nbsp; . . . </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Continue to apply surfacer as needed.&nbsp; You will keep moving up the 
"grit scale", to around 280 or so "dry".</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Now, buy a spray can of "Guide coat", which you apply very lightly . . . 
creating a speckle/overspray kind of coat.&nbsp; Do not try to save $8 bucks 
here and use flat black spray paint.&nbsp; Did that once . . . not good.&nbsp; 
Now, using around 280 or so, either a long board or long foam piece, sand across 
contours, with 2 - 3 good strokes.&nbsp; Immediately, you will observe the low 
spots.&nbsp; How low?&nbsp; A tad bit?&nbsp; May be able to bring up with a 
heavy application of surfacer.&nbsp; Miss a ding or much deeper?&nbsp; May need 
to go back to filler or skim.&nbsp; I'm currently helping a Club member with his 
B.&nbsp; He had it professionally painted.&nbsp; Terrible paint job.&nbsp; I 
didn't want to say anything, but in short, no one guide coated that car.&nbsp; 
There are a dozen or so very visible dings just on the back end of the 
car.&nbsp; Sad.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Repeat the above steps until, when you guide coat, with only 2 - 3 strokes, 
it is perfect.&nbsp; Don't get "cute" and say "Oh, I can sand that black stuff 
out of there!!!!"&nbsp; Sure you can, but you're only cheating yourself.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Should, at any point, you hit bare metal, hit it with self-etching, epoxy - 
catalytic sealer</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Once the guide coat is perfect, now lay in a supply of perhaps 320 (I 
usually skip the 320 stage), and 400 wet-or-dry.&nbsp; Now, you proceed to wet 
sand the car.&nbsp; An empty spray bottle of water is helpful.&nbsp; Lots of 
water.&nbsp; When this stage is done, you go over the car with a good, strong 
light . . . looking for scratches or other imperfections.&nbsp; Never kid 
yourself that the color coat" will take care of it, or hide it.&nbsp; Actually, 
color coat will make most imperfections look far worse.&nbsp; Any problems, fix 
'em now.&nbsp; You can buy a "variety" pack of the various shapes of the "new" 
foam blocks . . . highly recommeded.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Apply one final coat of self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.&nbsp; This 
stuff is the "new" magic.&nbsp; It absolutely allows your color coat to 
bond.&nbsp; TRY to the color coat as quickly as possible to the application of 
the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer -- with some brands, like within TEN 
minutes.&nbsp; Do NOT sand or abrade the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic 
sealer--you do NOT want to scratch or penetrate the self-etching, epoxy - 
catalytic sealer with anything like a scratch.&nbsp; Working alone, I find I 
can't do this step "properly" (meaning that quickly), but it still seems to work 
OK.&nbsp; The PPG rep would probably say otherwise.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>One "trick" I might throw in here, is this:&nbsp; With the high cost of 
good paint, I will use a lesser quality paint, of the same type and color (duh) 
for things like the interior (all covred over anyway), inside fender wells, the 
boot, the engine bay, inside/under the boot/boonet lids, etc.&nbsp; Thus, I may 
only need 1 gallon of the really expensive stuff, and 1 gallon of the 
other.&nbsp; A local company, which is becoming huge, and has a huge online 
presence, is TCP Global.&nbsp; They make (I believe&nbsp;made by&nbsp;ValSpar . 
. . now a much bigger player in the auto refinishing business -- having bought 
out a few other companies recently) their own brand of polyurethane paint, 
totally compatible with things like PPG Concept, at about 1/4 the price.&nbsp; I 
find it easier to spray and work with than the good stuff!&nbsp; I'm tempted to 
do an entire car with it.&nbsp; We'll see . . . but I've already bought the PPG 
paint for the Magnette . . . so whatever car comes up after the 
Magnette!!!!&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Spray the color coat . . . the easy part, actually,&nbsp; You've done all 
the hard work above.&nbsp; Put on plenty of paint (at least 3 - 4 "double" 
coats), so you have plenty to color sand/buff.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Color Sand</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Buff</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>We'll cover those two stages later!</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Collect your First place trophy</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>You might say "Wow, that is too much work.&nbsp; I'll just let a shop do 
it."&nbsp; Sure, most folks do, and you can get some great jobs out there.&nbsp; 
What I've observed so often, is that naturally, you don't want to spend more 
money that necessary, so the shop sounds good, and you go with them.&nbsp; 
Sometimes, the results are fantastic, and sometimes they are 
horrid.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've seen some great jobs at reasonable prices, and 
I've also seen some dowright awful jobs, where folks paid 
waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much money.&nbsp; There are some real craftsman out 
there, and there are some real hacks.&nbsp; If I was going to have a shop do it, 
I'd insist on seeing past customer's cars.&nbsp; Don't just listen to their 
speel.&nbsp; I'd make sure they list what they are going to do, 
step-by-step.&nbsp; I'd be dropping by often to make sure they are doing 
it.&nbsp; I want to say you are going to get what you pay for, but that doesn't 
always seem to be the case.&nbsp; I will say this:&nbsp; I've been asked to 
paint other people's cars.&nbsp; I simply can't/won't.&nbsp; I'm way too slow, 
and make mistakes.&nbsp; The cost of materials, for me, far exceeds what I see 
people getting their cars painted for.&nbsp; IF I was to paint a Magnette, which 
I will be doing one of these fine milleniums, which did not need extensive metal 
work, rust repair or welding, I would start at $10,000.&nbsp; I know you just 
flipped, but I think that is realistic for a really good paint job.&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;. . . and Happy Holidays.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>#2SteveK</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
  <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b> 
  <a title="[email-masked]" href="mailto:[email-masked]">Scott Woolman</a> </div>
  <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="[email-masked]" href="mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group - North 
  America</a> </div>
  <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 25, 2013 10:43 
  AM</div>
  <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [Zmagnette] Paint</div>
  <div><br></div>At a risk of getting overwhelmed with opinions. Here is my 
  question. My MG is down to metal&nbsp; all rust and body is done. Should I use 
  an acrylic etching primer then a sandable primer. 
  <br>Thanks<br>Scott&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Sent from my 
  iPhone<br>_______________________________________________<br>Zmagnette mailing 
  list<br><br>Donate: <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Archive: 
  <a href="http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>Forums: 
  <a href="http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
  <a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</a><br></blockquote>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Zmagnette mailing list</span><br><span></span><br><span>Donate: <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></span><br><span>Archive: <a href="http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a></span><br><span>Forums: <a href="http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</a></span><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</a></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>
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From: "Steve Kirby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 19:53:20 -0800

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thanks Scott.  I realized, subsequent to sending this, that I am =
describing how use single stage paints, NOT clear coating over a base =
coat.  To each their own, I don't personally think a clear coat paint =
job looks appropriate on a vintage car, but others will argue that =
forever.  Again, who has the best marinara sauce?

Read this over again, and I noticed a few missed words and typos and =
punctuation omissions.  Sorry . . . ya get what ya pay for, I guess!  In =
case any poor soul is reading this for the first time, I tried to fix =
the errors.

Steve
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Scott Woolman=20
  To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America=20
  Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Paint

  Steve=20
  Thank you. great  info.
  Scott
  Sent from my iPhone

  On Dec 25, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Steve Kirby" <[email-masked]> wrote:

    Scott--

    You're right, you are going to get overwhelmed with opinions and =
ideas, and likely, most of them will be fine.  I think prepping a car =
for a good paint job is a lot like being around a bunch of good cooks.  =
They are all going to have different ways to make the best marinara =
sauce, but I betcha in the end, they will all be great.

    Thus, my one "ABSOLUTE" bit of advice would be to get hooked up with =
a quality auto body supplier in your area.  Find the person who knows =

    However, a good supplier will tell you that you can readily =
subsitute other (even) less expensive PPG products for some of the prep =
stages.  Or gosh golly, even use a totally different brand of better =
surfacer, saving about $200 per gallon.  I won't bore you with the names =
of what I use, 'cuz I live in CA, and we have things you can't buy (and =
probably don't want to buy  . . . . $$$$), and you probably have access =
to a wider variety of products, no doubt at a reduced price.

    In the briefest note possible, I'll throw this out there, and then =
everyone else can whack it to pieces.  Based on the fact you said you're =
already down to mostly bare metal (Re-reading, this is far longer than I =
anticipated, but I still consider it a BRIEF summary!!!!  This is a =
complex topic, IMHO!!!!)"

    Use a self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.  No need nowadays to =
use a separate self-etching primer.

    Re-apply the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer in any areas =
where you may have exposed bare metal.  The idea is never to have actual =
bare metal . . . at this stage.  If you've only got a few, very small =
bare areas, you might want to buy some self-etching sealer in a spray =
can.  Tis expensive, about $18 for a large spray can, but it beats, =
sometimes, making up your spray gun, cleaning, etc.

    Don't try and get the surface perfect yet.  Use a good quality =
filler, if needed, and long boards or foam boards to around 120.  The =
sealer you've applied thus far is really NOT "surfacer", it is not =
intended for a surface finish, in fact, it is not even intended to be =
"sanded" at all.  Don't panic, you're no where's near done here . . . =
your filled repairs are still rough, and you no doubt still have =
scratchs, maybe even some very small dings.

    Apply a good coat of a good quality surfacer.  You get what you pay =
for.  Super cheap surfacer is exactly that.  Do NOT buy anything that =
claims to seal and surface (and cure cancer) in the same can.

recommend.  I have my favorites.  You now commonly read in magazines =

    Continue to apply surfacer as needed.  You will keep moving up the =
"grit scale", to around 280 or so "dry".

    Now, buy a spray can of "Guide coat", which you apply very lightly . =
. . creating a speckle/overspray kind of coat.  Do not try to save $8 =
bucks here and use flat black spray paint.  Did that once . . . not =
good.  Now, using around 280 or so, either a long board or long foam =
piece, sand across contours, with 2 - 3 good strokes.  Immediately, you =
will observe the low spots.  How low?  A tad bit?  May be able to bring =
up with a heavy application of surfacer.  Miss a ding or much deeper?  =
May need to go back to filler or skim.  I'm currently helping a Club =
member with his B.  He had it professionally painted.  Terrible paint =
job.  I didn't want to say anything, but in short, no one guide coated =
that car.  There are a dozen or so very visible dings just on the back =
end of the car.  Sad.

    Once the guide coat is perfect, now lay in a supply of perhaps 320 =
(I usually skip the 320 stage), and 400 long pieces of wet-or-dry.  Now, =
you proceed to wet sand the car.  An empty spray bottle of water is =
helpful.  Lots of water.  When this stage is done, you go over the car =
with a good, strong light . . . looking for scratches or other =
imperfections.  Never kid yourself that the color coat" will take care =
of it, or hide it."  Actually, color coat will make most imperfections =
look far worse.  Any problems, fix 'em now.  You can buy a "variety" =
pack of the various shapes of the "new" foam blocks . . . highly =
recommeded.

    Apply one final coat of self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.  =
This stuff is the "new" magic.  It absolutely allows your color coat to =
bond.  TRY to the color coat as quickly as possible to the application =
of the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer -- with some brands, like =
within TEN minutes.  Do NOT sand or abrade the self-etching, epoxy - =
catalytic sealer--you do NOT want to scratch or penetrate the =
self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer with anything like a scratch.  =
Working alone, I find I can't do this step "properly" (meaning that =
quickly), but it still seems to work OK.  The PPG rep would probably say =
otherwise.

    One "trick" I might throw in here, is this:  With the high cost of =
good paint, I will use a lesser quality paint, of the same type and =
color (duh) for things like the interior (all covred over anyway), =
inside fender wells, the boot, the engine bay, inside/under the =
boot/boonet lids, etc.  Thus, I may only need 1 gallon of the really =
expensive stuff, and 1 gallon of the other.  A local company, which is =
becoming huge, and has a huge online presence, is TCP Global.  They make =
(I believe made by ValSpar . . . now a much bigger player in the auto =
refinishing business -- having bought out a few other companies =
recently) their own brand of polyurethane paint, totally compatible with =
things like PPG Concept, at about 1/4 the price.  I find it easier to =
spray and work with than the good stuff!  I'm tempted to do an entire =
car with it.  We'll see . . . but I've already bought the PPG paint for =
the Magnette . . . so whatever car comes up after the Magnette!!!! =20

    Spray the color coat . . . the easy part, actually,  You've done all =
the hard work above.  Put on plenty of paint (at least 3 - 4 "double" =
coats), so you have plenty to color sand/buff.

    Color Sand

    Buff

    You might say "Wow, that is too much work.  I'll just let a shop do =
it."  Sure, most folks do, and you can get some great jobs out there.  =
What I've observed so often, is that naturally, you don't want to spend =
more money than necessary, so the shop sounds good, and you go with =
them.  Sometimes, the results are fantastic, and sometimes they are =
horrid.    I've seen some great jobs at reasonable prices, and I've also =
seen some dowright awful jobs, where folks paid waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy =
too much money.  There are some real craftsman out there, and there are =
some real hacks.  If I was going to have a shop do it, I'd insist on =
seeing past customer's cars.  Don't just listen to their speel.  I'd =
make sure they list what they are going to do, step-by-step.  I'd be =
dropping by often to make sure they are doing it.  I want to say you are =
going to get what you pay for, but that doesn't always seem to be the =
case.  I will say this:  I've been asked to paint other people's cars.  =
I simply can't/won't.  I'm way too slow, and make mistakes.  The cost of =
materials, for me, far exceeds what I see people getting their cars =
painted for.  IF I was to paint a Magnette, which I will be doing one of =
these fine milleniums, which did not need extensive metal work, rust =
repair or welding, I would start at $10,000.  I know you just flipped, =
but I think that is realistic for a really good paint job. =20

    #2SteveK

      At a risk of getting overwhelmed with opinions. Here is my =
question. My MG is down to metal  all rust and body is done. Should I =
use an acrylic etching primer then a sandable primer.=20
      Thanks
      Scott  =20

      Sent from my iPhone

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<DIV>thanks Scott.&nbsp; I realized, subsequent to sending this, that I =
am=20
describing how use single stage paints, NOT clear coating over a base=20
coat.&nbsp; To each their own, I don't personally think a clear coat =
paint job=20
looks appropriate on a vintage car, but others will argue that =
forever.&nbsp;=20
Again, who has the best marinara sauce?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Read this over again, and I&nbsp;noticed a few missed words and =
typos and=20
punctuation omissions.&nbsp; Sorry . . . ya get what ya pay for, I =
guess!&nbsp;=20
In case any poor soul is reading this for the first time, I tried to fix =
the=20
errors.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Steve</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Scott Woolman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group =
- North=20
  America</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 25, =
2013 9:46=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Steve&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Thank you. great &nbsp;info.<BR>Scott<BR>Sent from my =
iPhone</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>On Dec 25, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Steve Kirby" &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>&gt; =
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>
    <META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23543">
    <STYLE></STYLE>

    <DIV>Scott--</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>You're right, you are going to get overwhelmed with opinions =
and ideas,=20
    and likely, most of them will be fine.&nbsp; I think prepping a car =
for a=20
    good paint job is a lot like being around a bunch of good =
cooks.&nbsp; They=20
    are all going to have different ways to make the best marinara =
sauce, but I=20
    betcha in the end, they will all be great.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>If you want, I once put down on paper, for a fellow Club =
member,=20
    more-or-less how I've done it.&nbsp; But, I won't send it unless you =
want=20
    it.&nbsp; Like you've already correctly observed, you are likely to =
get=20
    overwhelmed.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>The other thing I would "warn" you against is that I've often =
been=20
    around folks who insist you must use "brand X's ____________".&nbsp; =
That's=20
    BS.&nbsp; There's a lot of good companies out there, and as long as =
you are=20
    using compatible, QUALITY products, it (IMHO), doesn't matter a hoot =
which=20
    brand you use, and to an even more controversial opinion, you can =
even=20
    mix/match stages, as long as you are following the advice of someone =
who=20
    knows what the heck they are doing.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Thus, my one "ABSOLUTE" bit of advice would be to get hooked up =
with a=20
    quality auto body supplier in your area.&nbsp; Find the person who =
knows=20
    their stuff, AND STICK WITH THAT PERSON.&nbsp; If you are &nbsp;like =
a=20
    friend of mine who insists on shopping the best price for every =
little thing=20
    he needs, including on-line, and drive to each of 358 stores in the =
area to=20
    save 3 cents on a gallon of ________, then you will never build a =
good=20
    relationship/rapport with a person who can tell you how to =
substitute=20
    certain things for the more expensive things and save some real =
money, and=20
    can answer that question of " . . . why is my surfacer coming off" =
and those=20
    types of things.&nbsp; For an example, I do like PPG paint products, =
but=20
    they are very expensive.&nbsp; If you believe the advice of some, =
then you=20
    should use EVERYthing PPG . . . gosh, PPG abrasive paper, PPG =
measuring=20
    cups, PPG funnels, PPG lacquer thinner, PPG epoxy sealer, blah, =
blah,=20
    blah.&nbsp; You will know you are doing it right, when the CEO of =
PPG sends=20
    you a bottle of 50 yr. old Scotch for your birthday.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>However, a good supplier will tell you that you can readily =
subsitute=20
    other (even) less expensive PPG products for some of the prep =
stages.&nbsp;=20
    Or gosh golly, even use a totally different brand of better =
surfacer, saving=20
    about $200 per gallon.&nbsp; I won't bore you with the names of what =
I use,=20
    'cuz I live in CA, and we have things you can't buy (and probably =
don't want=20
    to buy&nbsp; . . . . $$$$), and you probably have access to a wider =
variety=20
    of products,&nbsp;no doubt&nbsp;at a reduced price.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>In the briefest note possible, I'll throw this out there, and =
then=20
    everyone else can whack it to pieces.&nbsp; Based on the fact you =
said=20
    you're already down to mostly bare metal (Re-reading, this is far =
longer=20
    than I anticipated, but I still consider it a BRIEF =
summary!!!!&nbsp; This=20
    is a complex topic, IMHO!!!!)"</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Use a self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer.&nbsp; No need =
nowadays to=20
    use a separate self-etching primer.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Do your initial repairs . . . . banging out, metal work, =
filling of=20
    deepest/worse areas.&nbsp; </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Re-apply the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer in any =
areas where=20
    you may have exposed bare metal.&nbsp; The idea is <U>never </U>to =
have=20
    actual bare metal . . . at this stage.&nbsp; If you've only got a =
few, very=20
    small bare areas, you might want to buy&nbsp;some self-etching =
sealer in a=20
    spray can.&nbsp; Tis expensive, about $18 for a large spray can, but =
it=20
    beats, sometimes, making up your spray gun, cleaning, etc.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Don't try and get the surface perfect yet.&nbsp; Use a good =
quality=20
    filler, if needed, and long boards or foam boards to around =
120.&nbsp; The=20
    sealer you've applied thus far is really NOT "surfacer", it is not =
intended=20
    for a surface finish, in fact, it is not even intended to be =
"sanded" at=20
    all.&nbsp; Don't panic, you're no where's near done here . . . your =
filled=20
    repairs are still rough, and you no doubt still have scratchs, maybe =
even=20
    some very small dings.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Apply a good coat of a good quality surfacer.&nbsp; You get =
what you=20
    pay for.&nbsp; Super cheap surfacer is exactly that.&nbsp; Do NOT =
buy=20
    anything that claims to seal and surface (and cure cancer) in the =
same=20
    can.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Additional filler repairs can continue.&nbsp; If your repair is =

    "almost" perfect, just needs a "wee bit" more, now you move up to =
what is=20
    commonly called a "skim" product, intended to be put no more than a =
1/16" or=20
    so thick, and mostly sanded off.&nbsp; The beauty of these products =
is that=20
    they go on much easier, and sand off so much easier.&nbsp; There are =

    different "grades" of skim products, I actually use a third, very =
fine one .=20
    . . like if I see an air bubble, or a scratch.&nbsp; Don't fill =
these minor=20
    imperfections with your "basic filler" stuff . . . .it is too thick, =
too=20
    heavy, and too hard to get a fine surface when sanding.&nbsp; This =
is one of=20
    the biggest lessons I've learned, in the fairly recent past.&nbsp; =
You might=20
    be saying "OK, why not just use that "skim" stuff for the deep=20
    repairs?"&nbsp; 'Cuz it does not have the strength of the good =
filler=20
    products.&nbsp; Most filler products have some kind of reinforced =
fiberglass=20
    in them.&nbsp; One brand I would recommend is MarGlass . . . for a =
deep=20
    repair, where metalwork just has not totally worked.&nbsp; Normal =
depth=20
    repairs are done with a "regular" fill product, which your supplier =
can=20
    recommend.&nbsp; I have my favorites.&nbsp; You now commonly read in =

    magazines that the entire car was skimmed.&nbsp; I don't do that, =
but I=20
    understand why&nbsp; . . . </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Continue to apply surfacer as needed.&nbsp; You will keep =
moving up the=20
    "grit scale", to around 280 or so "dry".</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Now, buy a spray can of "Guide coat", which you apply very =
lightly . .=20
    . creating a speckle/overspray kind of coat.&nbsp; Do not try to =
save $8=20
    bucks here and use flat black spray paint.&nbsp; Did that once . . . =
not=20
    good.&nbsp; Now, using around 280 or so, either a long board or long =
foam=20
    piece, sand across contours, with 2 - 3 good strokes.&nbsp; =
Immediately, you=20
    will observe the low spots.&nbsp; How low?&nbsp; A tad bit?&nbsp; =
May be=20
    able to bring up with a heavy application of surfacer.&nbsp; Miss a =
ding or=20
    much deeper?&nbsp; May need to go back to filler or skim.&nbsp; I'm=20
    currently helping a Club member with his B.&nbsp; He had it =
professionally=20
    painted.&nbsp; Terrible paint job.&nbsp; I didn't want to say =
anything, but=20
    in short, no one guide coated that car.&nbsp; There are a dozen or =
so very=20
    visible dings just on the back end of the car.&nbsp; Sad.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Repeat the above steps until, when you guide coat, with only 2 =
- 3=20
    strokes, it is perfect.&nbsp; Don't get "cute" and say "Oh, I can =
sand that=20
    black stuff out of there!!!!"&nbsp; Sure you can, but you're only =
cheating=20
    yourself.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Should, at any point, you hit bare metal, hit it with =
self-etching,=20
    epoxy - catalytic sealer</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Once the guide coat is perfect, now lay in a supply of perhaps =
320 (I=20
    usually skip the 320 stage), and 400 long pieces of =
wet-or-dry.&nbsp; Now,=20
    you proceed to wet sand the car.&nbsp; An empty spray bottle of =
water is=20
    helpful.&nbsp; Lots of water.&nbsp; When this stage is done, you go =
over the=20
    car with a good, strong light . . . looking for scratches or other=20
    imperfections.&nbsp; Never kid yourself that the color coat" will =
take care=20
    of it, or hide it."&nbsp; Actually, color coat will make most =
imperfections=20
    look far worse.&nbsp; Any problems, fix 'em now.&nbsp; You can buy a =

    "variety" pack of the various shapes of the "new" foam blocks . . . =
highly=20
    recommeded.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Apply one final coat of self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer.&nbsp;=20
    This stuff is the "new" magic.&nbsp; It absolutely allows your color =
coat to=20
    bond.&nbsp; TRY to the color coat as quickly as possible to the =
application=20
    of the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer -- with some brands, =
like=20
    within TEN minutes.&nbsp; Do NOT sand or abrade the self-etching, =
epoxy -=20
    catalytic sealer--you do NOT want to scratch or penetrate the =
self-etching,=20
    epoxy - catalytic sealer with anything like a scratch.&nbsp; Working =
alone,=20
    I find I can't do this step "properly" (meaning that quickly), but =
it still=20
    seems to work OK.&nbsp; The PPG rep would probably say =
otherwise.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>One "trick" I might throw in here, is this:&nbsp; With the high =
cost of=20
    good paint, I will use a lesser quality paint, of the same type and =
color=20
    (duh) for things like the interior (all covred over anyway), inside =
fender=20
    wells, the boot, the engine bay, inside/under the boot/boonet lids,=20
    etc.&nbsp; Thus, I may only need 1 gallon of the really expensive =
stuff, and=20
    1 gallon of the other.&nbsp; A local company, which is becoming =
huge, and=20
    has a huge online presence, is TCP Global.&nbsp; They make (I=20
    believe&nbsp;made by&nbsp;ValSpar . . . now a much bigger player in =
the auto=20
    refinishing business -- having bought out a few other companies =
recently)=20
    their own brand of polyurethane paint, totally compatible with =
things like=20
    PPG Concept, at about 1/4 the price.&nbsp; I find it easier to spray =
and=20
    work with than the good stuff!&nbsp; I'm tempted to do an entire car =
with=20
    it.&nbsp; We'll see . . . but I've already bought the PPG paint for =
the=20
    Magnette . . . so whatever car comes up after the Magnette!!!!&nbsp; =
</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Spray the color coat . . . the easy part, actually,&nbsp; =
You've done=20
    all the hard work above.&nbsp; Put on plenty of paint (at least 3 - =
4=20
    "double" coats), so you have plenty to color sand/buff.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Color Sand</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Buff</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>We'll cover those two stages later!</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Collect your First place trophy</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>You might say "Wow, that is too much work.&nbsp; I'll just let =
a shop=20
    do it."&nbsp; Sure, most folks do, and you can get some great jobs =
out=20
    there.&nbsp; What I've observed so often, is that naturally, you =
don't want=20
    to spend more money than necessary, so the shop sounds good, and you =
go with=20
    them.&nbsp; Sometimes, the results are fantastic, and sometimes they =
are=20
    horrid.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've seen some great jobs at reasonable =
prices,=20
    and I've also seen some dowright awful jobs, where folks paid=20
    waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much money.&nbsp; There are some real =
craftsman=20
    out there, and there are some real hacks.&nbsp; If I was going to =
have a=20
    shop do it, I'd insist on seeing past customer's cars.&nbsp; Don't =
just=20
    listen to their speel.&nbsp; I'd make sure they list what they are =
going to=20
    do, step-by-step.&nbsp; I'd be dropping by often to make sure they =
are doing=20
    it.&nbsp; I want to say you are going to get what you pay for, but =
that=20
    doesn't always seem to be the case.&nbsp; I will say this:&nbsp; =
I've been=20
    asked to paint other people's cars.&nbsp; I simply =
can't/won't.&nbsp; I'm=20
    way too slow, and make mistakes.&nbsp; The cost of materials, for =
me, far=20
    exceeds what I see people getting their cars painted for.&nbsp; IF I =
was to=20
    paint a Magnette, which I will be doing one of these fine =
milleniums, which=20
    did not need extensive metal work, rust repair or welding, I would =
start at=20
    $10,000.&nbsp; I know you just flipped, but I think that is =
realistic for a=20
    really good paint job.&nbsp; </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;. . . and Happy Holidays.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>#2SteveK</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=[email-masked]=20
      href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Scott Woolman</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
      href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette =
Group -=20
      North America</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December =
25, 2013=20
      10:43 AM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>At a risk of getting overwhelmed with opinions. =
Here is my=20
      question. My MG is down to metal&nbsp; all rust and body is done. =
Should I=20
      use an acrylic etching primer then a sandable primer.=20
      <BR>Thanks<BR>Scott&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>Sent from my=20
      =
iPhone<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette=20
      mailing list<BR><BR>Donate: <A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/A><BR>Archive:=20
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orums:=20
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">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</A><B=
R></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
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N>Zmagnette=20
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otmail.com</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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From: John Elwood <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 09:18:35 -0500

I've never heard of " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer ".  Always thought it was one or the other... Either an etch primer, or a epoxy, not both...  What product is " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer "?  Google gives me nothing.
_______________________________________________
Zmagnette mailing list

---

From: "Steve Kirby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 20:23:24 -0800

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ooooops, John is absolutely right.  I should have looked at my "cans" of =
junk before writing such a treatise.  I now realize how I made that =
mistake.  I use to use PPG DP40 epoxy sealer, and an etching stuff prior =
to that (a yellow/greenie looking product).   Somewhere along there, the =
guy I work with said you really didn't need to use the etching stuff =
anymore, as as the DP40 would be fine without it.

Then, to make matters worse "in my mind", I started using SEM and UPol =
"self etching primer" in spray cans, again on the advice of the same =
guy, when I would occassionaly sand through, or whatever, the epoxy =
sealer.  My "guy" said that would be fine, and totally compatible with =
the DP40 type products (I now use a similar type product,made by TCP =
(which I believe is made by ValSpar, rather than the $$$$ PPG DP40, or =
even the PPG Omni line).  Thus, somehow in the back recesses of the =
remnants of my withering brain, the two products somewhat merged and =
became "self-etching epoxy sealer".  John is 100% correct, ain't no such =
animal. =20

What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars (well, 2 cars, one large =
truck) I have skipped the etching stage completely, and gone completely =
with the epoxy sealer, as the first step.  Have not had one problem . . =
. again, on the advice of a respected auto body supplier person.  Guess =
that is partially how I derived the "new (so new, it hasn't been =
invented yet!) product:  self-etching epoxy sealer!  Throw in the =
self-etching spray cans of primer, which was recommended to use on =
whatever bare metal areas might occur, and that completed my erroneous =
mental route.

The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think I best mosey up to my =
shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking about. =20

#2SteveK
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John Elwood=20
  To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America=20
  Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 6:18 AM
  Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Paint

  I've never heard of " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer ".  =
Always thought it was one or the other... Either an etch primer, or a =
epoxy, not both...  What product is " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer "?  Google gives me nothing.
  _______________________________________________
  Zmagnette mailing list

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV>ooooops, John is&nbsp;absolutely right.&nbsp; I should have looked =
at my=20
"cans" of junk before writing such a treatise.&nbsp; I now realize how I =
made=20
that mistake.&nbsp; I use to use PPG DP40 epoxy sealer, and an etching =
stuff=20
prior to that (a yellow/greenie looking&nbsp;product). &nbsp; Somewhere =
along=20
there, the guy I work with said you really didn't need to use the =
etching stuff=20
anymore, as as the DP40 would be fine without it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Then, to make matters worse "in my mind", I started using SEM and =
UPol=20
"self etching primer" in spray cans, again on the advice of the same =
guy, when I=20
would occassionaly sand through, or whatever, the epoxy sealer.&nbsp; My =
"guy"=20
said that would be fine, and totally&nbsp;compatible with the DP40 type =
products=20
(I now use a similar type product,made by TCP (which I believe is made =
by=20
ValSpar, rather than the $$$$ PPG DP40, or even the PPG Omni =
line).&nbsp; Thus,=20
somehow in the back recesses of the remnants of my withering brain, the =
two=20
products somewhat merged and became "self-etching epoxy sealer".&nbsp; =
John is=20
100% correct, ain't no such animal.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars (well, 2 cars, one =
large truck)=20
I have skipped the etching stage completely, and gone completely with =
the epoxy=20
sealer, as the first step.&nbsp; Have not had one problem . . . again, =
on the=20
advice of a respected auto body supplier person.&nbsp; Guess that is =
partially=20
how I derived the "new (so new, it hasn't been invented yet!) =
product:&nbsp;=20
self-etching epoxy sealer!&nbsp; Throw in the self-etching spray cans of =
primer,=20
which was recommended to use on whatever bare metal areas might occur, =
and that=20
completed my erroneous mental route.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think I best mosey up =
to my=20
shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking about.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>#2SteveK</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked] href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">John =
Elwood</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group =
- North=20
  America</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 28, =
2013 6:18=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>I've never heard of " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer=20
  ".&nbsp; Always thought it was one or the other... Either an etch =
primer, or a=20
  epoxy, not both...&nbsp; What product is " self-etching, epoxy - =
catalytic=20
  sealer "?&nbsp; Google gives me=20
  =
nothing.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette =

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From: "Gene deRuelle" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 20:48:16 -0800

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What? ! And spoil all the fun??
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Steve Kirby=20
  To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America=20
  Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 8:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Paint

  ooooops, John is absolutely right.  I should have looked at my "cans" =
of junk before writing such a treatise.  I now realize how I made that =
mistake.  I use to use PPG DP40 epoxy sealer, and an etching stuff prior =
to that (a yellow/greenie looking product).   Somewhere along there, the =
guy I work with said you really didn't need to use the etching stuff =
anymore, as as the DP40 would be fine without it.

  The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think I best mosey up to =
my shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking about. =20

  #2SteveK

  Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
  Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
  Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
  Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23515">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>What? ! And spoil all the =
fun??</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked] href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Steve =
Kirby</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group =
- North=20
  America</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 28, =
2013 8:23=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>ooooops, John is&nbsp;absolutely right.&nbsp; I should have =
looked at my=20
  "cans" of junk before writing such a treatise.&nbsp; I now realize how =
I made=20
  that mistake.&nbsp; I use to use PPG DP40 epoxy sealer, and an etching =
stuff=20
  prior to that (a yellow/greenie looking&nbsp;product). &nbsp; =
Somewhere along=20
  there, the guy I work with said you really didn't need to use the =
etching=20
  stuff anymore, as as the DP40 would be fine without it.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Then, to make matters worse "in my mind", I started using SEM and =
UPol=20
  "self etching primer" in spray cans, again on the advice of the same =
guy, when=20
  I would occassionaly sand through, or whatever, the epoxy =
sealer.&nbsp; My=20
  "guy" said that would be fine, and totally&nbsp;compatible with the =
DP40 type=20
  products (I now use a similar type product,made by TCP (which I =
believe is=20
  made by ValSpar, rather than the $$$$ PPG DP40, or even the PPG Omni=20
  line).&nbsp; Thus, somehow in the back recesses of the remnants of my=20
  withering brain, the two products somewhat merged and became =
"self-etching=20
  epoxy sealer".&nbsp; John is 100% correct, ain't no such animal.&nbsp; =
</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars (well, 2 cars, one =
large=20
  truck) I have skipped the etching stage completely, and gone =
completely with=20
  the epoxy sealer, as the first step.&nbsp; Have not had one problem . =
. .=20
  again, on the advice of a respected auto body supplier person.&nbsp; =
Guess=20
  that is partially how I derived the "new (so new, it hasn't been =
invented=20
  yet!) product:&nbsp; self-etching epoxy sealer!&nbsp; Throw in the=20
  self-etching spray cans of primer, which was recommended to use on =
whatever=20
  bare metal areas might occur, and that completed my erroneous mental=20
  route.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think I best mosey up =
to my=20
  shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking about.&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>#2SteveK</DIV></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[email-masked] =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">John Elwood</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
    href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette =
Group - North=20
    America</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 28, =
2013 6:18=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>I've never heard of " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer=20
    ".&nbsp; Always thought it was one or the other... Either an etch =
primer, or=20
    a epoxy, not both...&nbsp; What product is " self-etching, epoxy - =
catalytic=20
    sealer "?&nbsp; Google gives me=20
    =
nothing.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette =

R></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette =
mailing=20
  list<BR><BR>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html<BR>Archive:=20
  http://www.team.net/archive<BR>Forums:=20
  http://www.team.net/forums<BR>Unsubscribe/Manage:=20
  =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]<BR><BR><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "John Park" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 13:44:50 -0500

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

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Hi Steve, Does this latest missive mean more adjustments to your original
discourse on painting? Being an amateur it would be nice to have the
complete and accurate version so I'm/we're not open to mis-interpretation.
I really like when you "experienced" guys give a full detailed account of
how to do things. I'm trying to keep some semblance of fix it history like
Wray Lemke did for us back at GT35. Regards, John

From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Steve Kirby
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 11:23 PM
To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America
Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Paint

ooooops, John is absolutely right.  I should have looked at my "cans" of
junk before writing such a treatise.  I now realize how I made that mistake.
I use to use PPG DP40 epoxy sealer, and an etching stuff prior to that (a
yellow/greenie looking product).   Somewhere along there, the guy I work
with said you really didn't need to use the etching stuff anymore, as as the
DP40 would be fine without it.

Then, to make matters worse "in my mind", I started using SEM and UPol "self
etching primer" in spray cans, again on the advice of the same guy, when I
would occassionaly sand through, or whatever, the epoxy sealer.  My "guy"
said that would be fine, and totally compatible with the DP40 type products
(I now use a similar type product,made by TCP (which I believe is made by
ValSpar, rather than the $$$$ PPG DP40, or even the PPG Omni line).  Thus,
somehow in the back recesses of the remnants of my withering brain, the two
products somewhat merged and became "self-etching epoxy sealer".  John is
100% correct, ain't no such animal.  

What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars (well, 2 cars, one large truck)
I have skipped the etching stage completely, and gone completely with the
epoxy sealer, as the first step.  Have not had one problem . . . again, on
the advice of a respected auto body supplier person.  Guess that is
partially how I derived the "new (so new, it hasn't been invented yet!)
product:  self-etching epoxy sealer!  Throw in the self-etching spray cans
of primer, which was recommended to use on whatever bare metal areas might
occur, and that completed my erroneous mental route.

The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think I best mosey up to my
shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking about.  

#2SteveK

----- Original Message ----- 

To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America

I've never heard of " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer ".  Always
thought it was one or the other... Either an etch primer, or a epoxy, not
both...  What product is " self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer "?  Google
gives me nothing.
_______________________________________________
Zmagnette mailing list

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lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Hi Steve, Does this latest missive mean more adjustments to your =
original discourse on painting? Being an amateur it would be nice to =
have the complete and accurate version so I&#8217;m/we&#8217;re not open =
to mis-interpretation.&nbsp; I really like when you =
&#8220;experienced&#8221; guys give a full detailed account of how to do =
things. I&#8217;m trying to keep some semblance of fix it history like =
Wray Lemke did for us back at GT35. Regards, =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> =
[email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve =
Kirby<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 28, 2013 11:23 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
List for the Z Magnette Group - North America<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Zmagnette] Paint<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>ooooops, John is&nbsp;absolutely right.&nbsp; I should =
have looked at my &quot;cans&quot; of junk before writing such a =
treatise.&nbsp; I now realize how I made that mistake.&nbsp; I use to =
use PPG DP40 epoxy sealer, and an etching stuff prior to that (a =
yellow/greenie looking&nbsp;product). &nbsp; Somewhere along there, the =
guy I work with said you really didn't need to use the etching stuff =
anymore, as as the DP40 would be fine without =
it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then, to make matters worse &quot;in my mind&quot;, I =
started using SEM and UPol &quot;self etching primer&quot; in spray =
cans, again on the advice of the same guy, when I would occassionaly =
sand through, or whatever, the epoxy sealer.&nbsp; My &quot;guy&quot; =
said that would be fine, and totally&nbsp;compatible with the DP40 type =
products (I now use a similar type product,made by TCP (which I believe =
is made by ValSpar, rather than the $$$$ PPG DP40, or even the PPG Omni =
line).&nbsp; Thus, somehow in the back recesses of the remnants of my =
withering brain, the two products somewhat merged and became =
&quot;self-etching epoxy sealer&quot;.&nbsp; John is 100% correct, ain't =
no such animal.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars (well, 2 =
cars, one large truck) I have skipped the etching stage completely, and =
gone completely with the epoxy sealer, as the first step.&nbsp; Have not =
had one problem . . . again, on the advice of a respected auto body =
supplier person.&nbsp; Guess that is partially how I derived the =
&quot;new (so new, it hasn't been invented yet!) product:&nbsp; =
self-etching epoxy sealer!&nbsp; Throw in the self-etching spray cans of =
primer, which was recommended to use on whatever bare metal areas might =
occur, and that completed my erroneous mental =
route.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think I =
best mosey up to my shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking =
about.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>#2SteveK<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- =
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" title=3D"[email-masked]">John =
Elwood</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
title=3D"[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group - North =
America</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
Saturday, December 28, 2013 6:18 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
Re: [Zmagnette] Paint<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I've =
never heard of &quot; self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer =
&quot;.&nbsp; Always thought it was one or the other... Either an etch =
primer, or a epoxy, not both...&nbsp; What product is &quot; =
self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer &quot;?&nbsp; Google gives me =
nothing.<br>_______________________________________________<br>Zmagnette =
mailing list<br><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>F=
orums: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>Uns=
ubscribe/Manage: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]=
">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>
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From: "Steve Kirby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 10:59:18 -0800

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well gosh, I think so, BUT . . . . I hope I haven't made any other =
bonehead mistakes like the one John caught.  The thing w/painting is, =
there are many products and many choices.  Starting with basic decisions =
like "single stage" or "clear coat".  Marinara or Alfredo?  Then, I =
realize I live in Calif. where things that others or you might have are =
not allowed here.  For instance, if you clear coat, then you elimiante =
the color sanding and buff/polish stage.  Spaghetti or Linguini?  I =
already stated my preference when doing a vintage car:  single stage, =
color sanded and buffed.  Others will vehemently disagree, and that's =
fine.

I do distinctly your fantastic car at Delavan . . . beating out like =
what?  +/- 32 cars???  You, or someone!, obviously knows what the heck =
they are doing.  Your car is drop dead gorgeous, and a model to which =
the rest of us can aspire.

#2SteveK
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John Park=20
  To: 'List for the Z Magnette Group - North America'=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 10:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Paint

  Hi Steve, Does this latest missive mean more adjustments to your =
original discourse on painting? Being an amateur it would be nice to =
have the complete and accurate version so I'm/we're not open to =
mis-interpretation.  I really like when you "experienced" guys give a =
full detailed account of how to do things. I'm trying to keep some =
semblance of fix it history like Wray Lemke did for us back at GT35. =
Regards, John

  =20

  From: [email-masked] =

  =20

  =20

  =20

  =20

  =20

  #2SteveK

    From: John Elwood=20

    =20

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<DIV>well gosh, I think so, BUT . . . . I hope I haven't made any other =
bonehead=20
mistakes like the one John caught.&nbsp; The thing w/painting is, there =
are many=20
products and many choices.&nbsp; Starting with basic decisions like =
"single=20
stage" or "clear coat".&nbsp; Marinara or Alfredo?&nbsp; Then, I realize =
I live=20
in Calif. where things that others or you might have are not allowed =
here.&nbsp;=20
For instance, if you clear coat, then you elimiante the color sanding =
and=20
buff/polish stage.&nbsp; Spaghetti or Linguini?&nbsp; I already stated =
my=20
preference when doing a vintage car:&nbsp; single stage, color sanded =
and=20
buffed.&nbsp; Others will vehemently disagree, and that's fine.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I do distinctly your fantastic car at Delavan . . . beating out =
like=20
what?&nbsp; +/- 32 cars???&nbsp; You, or someone!, obviously knows what =
the heck=20
they are doing.&nbsp; Your car is drop dead gorgeous, and a model to =
which the=20
rest of us can aspire.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>#2SteveK</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked] href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">John Park</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">'List for the Z Magnette =
Group - North=20
  America'</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 29, 2013 =
10:44=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DWordSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">Hi=20
  Steve, Does this latest missive mean more adjustments to your original =

  discourse on painting? Being an amateur it would be nice to have the =
complete=20
  and accurate version so I=92m/we=92re not open to =
mis-interpretation.&nbsp; I=20
  really like when you =93experienced=94 guys give a full detailed =
account of how to=20
  do things. I=92m trying to keep some semblance of fix it history like =
Wray Lemke=20
  did for us back at GT35. Regards, John<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
#e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=20
  [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]]=20
  <B>On Behalf Of </B>Steve Kirby<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 28, =
2013=20
  11:23 PM<BR><B>To:</B> List for the Z Magnette Group - North=20
  America<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette]=20
  Paint<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>ooooops, John is&nbsp;absolutely right.&nbsp; I =
should have=20
  looked at my "cans" of junk before writing such a treatise.&nbsp; I =
now=20
  realize how I made that mistake.&nbsp; I use to use PPG DP40 epoxy =
sealer, and=20
  an etching stuff prior to that (a yellow/greenie =
looking&nbsp;product). &nbsp;=20
  Somewhere along there, the guy I work with said you really didn't need =
to use=20
  the etching stuff anymore, as as the DP40 would be fine without=20
  it.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>Then, to make matters worse "in my mind", I =
started using=20
  SEM and UPol "self etching primer" in spray cans, again on the advice =
of the=20
  same guy, when I would occassionaly sand through, or whatever, the =
epoxy=20
  sealer.&nbsp; My "guy" said that would be fine, and =
totally&nbsp;compatible=20
  with the DP40 type products (I now use a similar type product,made by =
TCP=20
  (which I believe is made by ValSpar, rather than the $$$$ PPG DP40, or =
even=20
  the PPG Omni line).&nbsp; Thus, somehow in the back recesses of the =
remnants=20
  of my withering brain, the two products somewhat merged and became=20
  "self-etching epoxy sealer".&nbsp; John is 100% correct, ain't no such =

  animal.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars =
(well, 2 cars,=20
  one large truck) I have skipped the etching stage completely, and gone =

  completely with the epoxy sealer, as the first step.&nbsp; Have not =
had one=20
  problem . . . again, on the advice of a respected auto body supplier=20
  person.&nbsp; Guess that is partially how I derived the "new (so new, =
it=20
  hasn't been invented yet!) product:&nbsp; self-etching epoxy =
sealer!&nbsp;=20
  Throw in the self-etching spray cans of primer, which was recommended =
to use=20
  on whatever bare metal areas might occur, and that completed my =
erroneous=20
  mental route.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think =
I best=20
  mosey up to my shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking =
about.&nbsp;=20
  <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>#2SteveK<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; =
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PADDING-TOP: 0in">
    <DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- =
Original=20
    Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A=20
    title=[email-masked] href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">John =
Elwood</A>=20
    <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A=20
    title=[email-masked] =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List=20
    for the Z Magnette Group - North America</A> =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> =
Saturday,=20
    December 28, 2013 6:18 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: =
[Zmagnette]=20
    Paint<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal>I've never heard of " self-etching, epoxy - =
catalytic=20
    sealer ".&nbsp; Always thought it was one or the other... Either an =
etch=20
    primer, or a epoxy, not both...&nbsp; What product is " =
self-etching, epoxy=20
    - catalytic sealer "?&nbsp; Google gives me=20
    =
nothing.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette =

    mailing list<BR><BR>Donate: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/A><BR>Archive:=20
    <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</A><BR>F=
orums:=20
    <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</A><BR>Uns=
ubscribe/Manage:=20
    <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]=
">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</A><o=
:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
  <P>
  <HR>

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From: "John Park" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 14:20:24 -0500

--===============0484912997==
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Hi Steve, 

Thanks for the compliments again on my car. I had a lot of thoughts on the
painting of my car and had a lot of discussions with various paint and body
shops before I picked this guy. It took 7.5 years for him to finish the job
and some of that might have been me interfering to get him to do it to the
extent I wanted as I understood it should be done by some other shops and
people like you. I'm just trying to get an accurate description for future
reference and I know looking at your BGT in Reno you do excellent work and
you have a nice way of clearly explaining things. I am in awe of people like
you, Steve Hanegan and Allen Bachelder who do marvelous work beyond what my
skill sets are. I know there are others out there who have the same skills
sets so don't anyone take offense. 

I'm kind of am a person who likes to have quality things and works hard at
the things I do well in order to pay someone else to do the type of job I 

can't achieve or don't have the time to achieve. Maybe when I retire in the
not too distant future. I like to operate things and see the 4 dimensional
beauty they have.

I'll try and slot the two "episodes" together for my "collection" of fix it
stories.

            Regards,

            John

Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:59 PM

well gosh, I think so, BUT . . . . I hope I haven't made any other bonehead
mistakes like the one John caught.  The thing w/painting is, there are many
products and many choices.  Starting with basic decisions like "single
stage" or "clear coat".  Marinara or Alfredo?  Then, I realize I live in
Calif. where things that others or you might have are not allowed here.  For
instance, if you clear coat, then you elimiante the color sanding and
buff/polish stage.  Spaghetti or Linguini?  I already stated my preference
when doing a vintage car:  single stage, color sanded and buffed.  Others
will vehemently disagree, and that's fine.

I do distinctly your fantastic car at Delavan . . . beating out like what?
+/- 32 cars???  You, or someone!, obviously knows what the heck they are
doing.  Your car is drop dead gorgeous, and a model to which the rest of us
can aspire.

#2SteveK

----- Original Message ----- 

To: 'List for the Z Magnette Group - North America'

#2SteveK

----- Original Message ----- 

  _____  

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Hi Steve, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Thanks for the compliments again on my car. I had a lot of thoughts on =
the painting of my car and had a lot of discussions with various paint =
and body shops before I picked this guy. It took 7.5 years for him to =
finish the job and some of that might have been me interfering to get =
him to do it to the extent I wanted as I understood it should be done by =
some other shops and people like you. I&#8217;m just trying to get an =
accurate description for future reference and I know looking at your BGT =
in Reno you do excellent work and you have a nice way of clearly =
explaining things. I am in awe of people like you, Steve Hanegan and =
Allen Bachelder who do marvelous work beyond what my skill sets are. I =
know there are others out there who have the same skills sets so =
don&#8217;t anyone take offense. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>I&#8217;m kind of am a person who likes to have quality things and =
works hard at the things I do well in order to pay someone else to do =
the type of job I <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>can&#8217;t achieve or don&#8217;t have the time to achieve. Maybe when =
I retire in the not too distant future. I like to operate things and see =
the 4 dimensional beauty they have.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>I&#8217;ll try and slot the two &#8220;episodes&#8221; together for my =
&#8220;collection&#8221; of fix it stories.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> =
[email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve =
Kirby<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
List for the Z Magnette Group - North America<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Zmagnette] Paint<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>well =
gosh, I think so, BUT . . . . I hope I haven't made any other bonehead =
mistakes like the one John caught.&nbsp; The thing w/painting is, there =
are many products and many choices.&nbsp; Starting with basic decisions =
like &quot;single stage&quot; or &quot;clear coat&quot;.&nbsp; Marinara =
or Alfredo?&nbsp; Then, I realize I live in Calif. where things that =
others or you might have are not allowed here.&nbsp; For instance, if =
you clear coat, then you elimiante the color sanding and buff/polish =
stage.&nbsp; Spaghetti or Linguini?&nbsp; I already stated my preference =
when doing a vintage car:&nbsp; single stage, color sanded and =
buffed.&nbsp; Others will vehemently disagree, and that's =
fine.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
do distinctly your fantastic car at Delavan . . . beating out like =
what?&nbsp; +/- 32 cars???&nbsp; You, or someone!, obviously knows what =
the heck they are doing.&nbsp; Your car is drop dead gorgeous, and a =
model to which the rest of us can aspire.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>#2SteveK<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- =
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" title=3D"[email-masked]">John Park</a> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b=
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
title=3D"[email-masked]">'List for the Z Magnette Group - =
North America'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
Sunday, December 29, 2013 10:44 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
Re: [Zmagnette] Paint<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">zmagnette-bounces@autox.=
team.net</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:zmagnette-bounces=
@autox.team.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Kirby<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Saturday, December 28, 2013 11:23 PM<br><b>To:</b> List for the Z =
Magnette Group - North America<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
title=3D"[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group - North =
America</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
Saturday, December 28, 2013 6:18 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
Re: [Zmagnette] Paint<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I've =
never heard of &quot; self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer =
&quot;.&nbsp; Always thought it was one or the other... Either an etch =
primer, or a epoxy, not both...&nbsp; What product is &quot; =
self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer &quot;?&nbsp; Google gives me =
nothing.<br>_______________________________________________<br>Zmagnette =
mailing list<br><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>F=
orums: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>Uns=
ubscribe/Manage: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]=
">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D3 width=3D"100%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>__________________________________________=
_____<br>Zmagnette mailing list<br><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>F=
orums: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>Uns=
ubscribe/Manage: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]=
">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>
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From: Scott Woolman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:29:29 -0800

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From: John Elwood <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 15:31:44 -0500

Steve's email was good, just the epoxy bit confused me :)  I've only done two paint jobs, but sadly both were on the same car because my first one was awful.  Third one is a few months away.

My order of operation is/was:

1. Big metal work first.
2. Sandblast if applicable (wasn't on 1100 except in small places, Magnette went to bare metal all over)
3. Epoxy prime ASAP. (I use PPG "DP" too cuz paint lady gives me good prices)
4. Grind off epoxy in worst areas for marglass... Like a giant weld seam that's rough.  Bondo is too soft so this is good when you're more than 1/16th off.
5. Epoxy that again.... Cuz it's not like I'm going to finish it tomorrow and bare metal rusts.  Real body shops have climate control, my barn has mice.
6. Bondo what needs a skim (changing to Rage though... Supposedly easier to sand).
7. Maybe a little more epoxy if I sanded through.  Maybe not.  
8. K38 or some other high build primer ... Then sand sand sand.
9. Paint it... Concept DCC single stage...
10.  Optional:  Realize it's terrible, sand it down again, more K38, order $600 in sandpaper from Amazon.com that you should have bought before... 3M powdered guide coat on the new primer, find lots of errors, sand sand sand...  Plan on moving this step on the Magnette to before step 9.  Love the powder guide coat over the rattle can.
11.  More concept DCC.... Never enough paint on the car when you're power sanding/polishing.
12.  Sand down your orange peel 1000 grit, 1500 grit, 3000 grit...
13.  3M finesse it to what it should have looked like in the first place if that bug hadn't died on the roof.
14. Wonder where your vacation went.
15. Wonder if your baseball team is ever going to win a game.
16.  Slap on some parts, take it to British Invasion, lose your class to a car that was painted with kitchen sponge.
17. Catch eye of AutoWeek photographer :). 

Anyway, epoxy primer is for us restorers cuz we're gonna blast, prime, then bondo.  You aren't supposed to bondo over etch primer.  

-John

---

From: "Steve Kirby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:59:51 -0800

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you'll never go wrong w/PPG.  ValSpar seems to be a new player, or =
"bigger" player recently in the car field.  They are buying up a lot of =
others.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Scott Woolman=20
  To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:29 AM
  Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Paint

  I think I can Decipher the sequence. I do not have any Valspar dealers =
in the area I checked Friday. So I'm going with the PPG even though it's =
a little more expensive. My basecoat is acrylic urethane primer K 36. =
Does that sound right to you

  Sent from my iPhone

  On Dec 29, 2013, at 11:01 AM, "Steve Kirby" <[email-masked]> wrote:

    #2SteveK

      Hi Steve, Does this latest missive mean more adjustments to your =
original discourse on painting? Being an amateur it would be nice to =
have the complete and accurate version so I=E2=80=99m/we=E2=80=99re not =
open to mis-interpretation.  I really like when you =
=E2=80=9Cexperienced=E2=80=9D guys give a full detailed account of how =
to do things. I=E2=80=99m trying to keep some semblance of fix it =
history like Wray Lemke did for us back at GT35. Regards, John

      ooooops, John is absolutely right.  I should have looked at my =
"cans" of junk before writing such a treatise.  I now realize how I made =
that mistake.  I use to use PPG DP40 epoxy sealer, and an etching stuff =
prior to that (a yellow/greenie looking product).   Somewhere along =
there, the guy I work with said you really didn't need to use the =
etching stuff anymore, as as the DP40 would be fine without it.

      Then, to make matters worse "in my mind", I started using SEM and =
UPol "self etching primer" in spray cans, again on the advice of the =
same guy, when I would occassionaly sand through, or whatever, the epoxy =
sealer.  My "guy" said that would be fine, and totally compatible with =
the DP40 type products (I now use a similar type product,made by TCP =
(which I believe is made by ValSpar, rather than the $$$$ PPG DP40, or =
even the PPG Omni line).  Thus, somehow in the back recesses of the =
remnants of my withering brain, the two products somewhat merged and =
became "self-etching epoxy sealer".  John is 100% correct, ain't no such =
animal. =20

      What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars (well, 2 cars, one =
large truck) I have skipped the etching stage completely, and gone =
completely with the epoxy sealer, as the first step.  Have not had one =
problem . . . again, on the advice of a respected auto body supplier =
person.  Guess that is partially how I derived the "new (so new, it =
hasn't been invented yet!) product:  self-etching epoxy sealer!  Throw =
in the self-etching spray cans of primer, which was recommended to use =
on whatever bare metal areas might occur, and that completed my =
erroneous mental route.

      The next time I attempt such a discourse, I think I best mosey up =
to my shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking about. =20

      #2SteveK

        From: John Elwood=20

-

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<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23543"></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dauto bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>you'll never go wrong w/PPG.&nbsp; ValSpar seems to be a new =
player, or=20
"bigger" player recently in the car field.&nbsp; They are buying up a =
lot of=20
others.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Scott Woolman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette Group =
- North=20
  America</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 29, 2013 =
11:29=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>I think I can Decipher the sequence. I do not have any Valspar =
dealers in=20
  the area I checked Friday. So I'm going with the PPG even though it's =
a little=20
  more expensive. My basecoat is acrylic urethane primer K 36. Does that =
sound=20
  right to you<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>On Dec 29, 2013, at 11:01 AM, "Steve Kirby" &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>&gt; =
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
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    <DIV>well gosh, I think so, BUT . . . . I hope I haven't made any =
other=20
    bonehead mistakes like the one John caught.&nbsp; The thing =
w/painting is,=20
    there are many products and many choices.&nbsp; Starting with basic=20
    decisions like "single stage" or "clear coat".&nbsp; Marinara or=20
    Alfredo?&nbsp; Then, I realize I live in Calif. where things that =
others or=20
    you might have are not allowed here.&nbsp; For instance, if you =
clear coat,=20
    then you elimiante the color sanding and buff/polish stage.&nbsp; =
Spaghetti=20
    or Linguini?&nbsp; I already stated my preference when doing a =
vintage=20
    car:&nbsp; single stage, color sanded and buffed.&nbsp; Others will=20
    vehemently disagree, and that's fine.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I do distinctly your fantastic car at Delavan . . . beating out =
like=20
    what?&nbsp; +/- 32 cars???&nbsp; You, or someone!, obviously knows =
what the=20
    heck they are doing.&nbsp; Your car is drop dead gorgeous, and a =
model to=20
    which the rest of us can aspire.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>#2SteveK</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=[email-masked] href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">John =
Park</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
      href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">'List for the Z Magnette =
Group -=20
      North America'</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 29, =
2013 10:44=20
      AM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DWordSection1>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi=20
      Steve, Does this latest missive mean more adjustments to your =
original=20
      discourse on painting? Being an amateur it would be nice to have =
the=20
      complete and accurate version so I=E2=80=99m/we=E2=80=99re not =
open to=20
      mis-interpretation.&nbsp; I really like when you =
=E2=80=9Cexperienced=E2=80=9D guys give a=20
      full detailed account of how to do things. I=E2=80=99m trying to =
keep some=20
      semblance of fix it history like Wray Lemke did for us back at =
GT35.=20
      Regards, John<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
      <DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
#e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <A =

      =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">zmagnette-bounces@autox.=
team.net</A>=20
      [<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:zmagnette-bounces=
@autox.team.net</A>]=20
      <B>On Behalf Of </B>Steve Kirby<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December =
28,=20
      2013 11:23 PM<BR><B>To:</B> List for the Z Magnette Group - North=20
      America<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette]=20
      Paint<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
      <DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal>ooooops, John is&nbsp;absolutely right.&nbsp; =
I should=20
      have looked at my "cans" of junk before writing such a =
treatise.&nbsp; I=20
      now realize how I made that mistake.&nbsp; I use to use PPG DP40 =
epoxy=20
      sealer, and an etching stuff prior to that (a yellow/greenie=20
      looking&nbsp;product). &nbsp; Somewhere along there, the guy I =
work with=20
      said you really didn't need to use the etching stuff anymore, as =
as the=20
      DP40 would be fine without it.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal>Then, to make matters worse "in my mind", I =
started=20
      using SEM and UPol "self etching primer" in spray cans, again on =
the=20
      advice of the same guy, when I would occassionaly sand through, or =

      whatever, the epoxy sealer.&nbsp; My "guy" said that would be =
fine, and=20
      totally&nbsp;compatible with the DP40 type products (I now use a =
similar=20
      type product,made by TCP (which I believe is made by ValSpar, =
rather than=20
      the $$$$ PPG DP40, or even the PPG Omni line).&nbsp; Thus, somehow =
in the=20
      back recesses of the remnants of my withering brain, the two =
products=20
      somewhat merged and became "self-etching epoxy sealer".&nbsp; John =
is 100%=20
      correct, ain't no such animal.&nbsp; <O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal>What I will say, is that on the last 3 cars =
(well, 2=20
      cars, one large truck) I have skipped the etching stage =
completely, and=20
      gone completely with the epoxy sealer, as the first step.&nbsp; =
Have not=20
      had one problem . . . again, on the advice of a respected auto =
body=20
      supplier person.&nbsp; Guess that is partially how I derived the =
"new (so=20
      new, it hasn't been invented yet!) product:&nbsp; self-etching =
epoxy=20
      sealer!&nbsp; Throw in the self-etching spray cans of primer, =
which was=20
      recommended to use on whatever bare metal areas might occur, and =
that=20
      completed my erroneous mental route.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal>The next time I attempt such a discourse, I =
think I=20
      best mosey up to my shop, and check the cans of stuff I'm talking=20
      about.&nbsp; <O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal>#2SteveK<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt =
solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: =
4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium =
none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
        <DIV>
        <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">-----=20
        Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A =

        title=[email-masked] =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">John=20
        Elwood</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A =

        title=[email-masked]=20
        href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">List for the Z Magnette =
Group -=20
        North America</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> =
Saturday,=20
        December 28, 2013 6:18 AM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> =
Re:=20
        [Zmagnette] Paint<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
        <P class=3DMsoNormal>I've never heard of " self-etching, epoxy - =
catalytic=20
        sealer ".&nbsp; Always thought it was one or the other... Either =
an etch=20
        primer, or a epoxy, not both...&nbsp; What product is " =
self-etching,=20
        epoxy - catalytic sealer "?&nbsp; Google gives me=20
        =
nothing.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette =

        mailing list<BR><BR>Donate: <A=20
        =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/A><BR>Archive:=20
        <A=20
        =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</A><BR>F=
orums:=20
        <A=20
        =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</A><BR>Uns=
ubscribe/Manage:=20
        <A=20
        =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]=
">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/[email-masked]</A><O=
:P></O:P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
      <P></P>
      <HR>

      =
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette=20
R><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

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