From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Casey Annis" To: Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:59:12 -0700 Subject: ***Last Call for Free Classified Ads in Vintage Racecar*** This is the last call for free ads in the debut issue of Vintage Racecar Journal & Market Report. We've received a great number of high quality cars, which means that space and time are limited!! E-mail or FAX your ads, NO LATER THAN JULY 4th. I'll post an announcement when the first issue is available (around the last week of July. Thanks to everyone for the messages of interest and support, you're going to love this magazine! Best Regards, Casey Annis Managing Editor Vintage Racecar Journal & Market Report From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jaral48462@aol.com To: healeys@Autox.Team.Net, british-cars@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:28:01 EDT Subject: Meadow Brook Concours d'Elegance Hi gang, Just a note to remind those that are going to the Meadow Brook Concours d'Elegance in Rochester Michigan that a week end of activities are planned by the Meadow Brook planning committee that includes Discounted Admission to the Concours d'Elegance and Preferred Parking Passes. The rub is that you have to have your Registration for the Tour d'Elegance RECEIVED no later than JULY 10, 1998. The post office box that the Registration Form is mailed to will close on at the end of that day and mail received after that will be returned. If your planning on going and don't have the registration forms just email me with your FAX NO. and I will send you the agenda and forms. For a overview of the week end you can go to the TOUR d'ELEGANCE page of the Conclave 98 update at URL: http://members.aol.com/jaral48462/contour.html or click on TOUR d'ELEGANCE For an Overview and History of the Meadow Brook Concours d'Elegance you can go to URL: http://members.aol.com/jaral48462/concours.html or click on CONCOURS d'ELEGANCE The dates for the event is July 31 thru August 2. Now click back to your regularly scheduled email. Ron Mitchell Web Master, CONCLAVE 98 UPDATE From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Rockney, Vaughn (GEIS)" To: "'Vintage Race List'" , Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:33:46 -0400 Subject: Daytona Pepsi 400 Postponed Listers, I just read that the Daytona Pepsi 400 has been postponed until October 17 because of the Florida fires making access to the track difficult. Shucks.. was looking forward to the broadcast Saturday night.. Vaughn From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Casey Annis" To: Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:31:41 -0700 Subject: ***Sorry, I left out the FAX# for Vintage Racecar Journal*** In my haste I left out the number (sorry) Vintage Racecar Journal (714) 828-7500 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike Francis To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 17:17:49 -0700 Subject: Minilite-style wheels. Thanks everyone for your help finding Minilites! I was mistaken as to what exactly to ask for though. What myself and a freind are looking for is a supplier of the American Eagle made - minilite type - wheels. They were available through Triumph dealers in the 70's and were made of Magnesium. We're not sure if they are still available in Magnesium, but maybe in Aluminium. Thay may be still available for Beatles. Thanks again for all your help once more. Hopefully some of you know what I'm talking about! Mike Francis From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Ajzep@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:14:06 EDT Subject: Ford engine and transmission for sale For Sale: Ford engine 102E6016 Transmission 113E7651B Was in running condition when taken out of TVR. In Atlanta, GA. $800. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Malcolm Cox To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 13:29:35 -0700 Subject: RE Breaking in a race engine How do you break in your race motor following a freshening? I get a different recomendation every time I ask, so now its time for 100 more recomendations!. Malcolm, Napa From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Ajzep@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:51:04 EDT Subject: ford engine for sale to fit Lotus 7 Thank you for the response re: sale of ford engine... I'm sorry but the transmission on my end was cut off ... Would you kindly respond again... Again I'm sorry for the inconvience... Happy Motoring Al Zeppenfeld From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike Francis To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 14:10:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Minilite-style wheels. >Steve, >>Never heard of "American Eagle" wheels, do you mean "American Racing"? >Nether have I. I am actually looking for a supplier for a friend of mine. Is is the owner/operator of Revington TR in England. He gave me the name American Eagle. He says they are very similar to Minilites and they were magnesium. If the magesium is still available, then that is what he is really looking for. If not, then he heard somewhere that they are being made in Aluminium, and he'd like a source of those. > Mike Francis From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:29:42 EDT Subject: xx TEST From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Dick R." To: Mike Francis Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 18:04:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Minilite-style wheels. Mike Francis wrote: > > >Steve, > > >>Never heard of "American Eagle" wheels, do you mean "American Racing"? > > >Nether have I. I am actually looking for a supplier for a friend of mine. > Is is the owner/operator of Revington TR in England. He gave me the name > American Eagle. He says they are very similar to Minilites and they were > magnesium. If the magesium is still available, then that is what he is > really looking for. If not, then he heard somewhere that they are being > made in Aluminium, and he'd like a source of those. > > > > Mike Francis I'm almost sure he's referring to American Racing Mags which were an extremely popular racing wheel in the 60's. They had the same 8 spoke configuration as is generally found on Minilites. American Racing wheels are still made, but they've gone totally commercial - no race whls., just fancy aftermarket street stuff. Dick Rothman From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: malcox@napanet.net Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:51:23 EDT Subject: Re: RE Breaking in a race engine In a message dated 98-07-03 16:43:52 EDT, you write: << How do you break in your race motor following a freshening? I get a different recomendation every time I ask, so now its time for 100 more recomendations!. Malcolm, Napa >> Malcolm, It depends alot on what you did on the freshening. Did you replace the cam and lifters? If so you will want to run it for 30 minutes at about 2000 RPMs to break in the cam. If the rings are new you may want to drive it at varying speed for about a hundred miles to set the rings. What exactly did you do. (But don't give away your secrets). Regards, Rod From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: CLCSF@aol.com To: RodsINTOMG@aol.com, malcox@napanet.net Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:43:23 EDT Subject: Re: RE Breaking in a race engine I use the Freeway Dyno. Put on a muffler and a license plate and lay out a course between two offramps about 2 - 3 miles apart. Keep it under 4000 for the first run and then take it up to 5000 for a while, varying the rpms as you go. I run the Alfa up to 7000 after about 2 hours. Don Queen From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Susan and John Roper To: Mike Francis Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 20:58:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Minilite-style wheels. Mike Francis wrote: > > >Steve, > > >>Never heard of "American Eagle" wheels, do you mean "American Racing"? > > >Nether have I. I am actually looking for a supplier for a friend of mine. > Is is the owner/operator of Revington TR in England. He gave me the name > American Eagle. He says they are very similar to Minilites and they were > magnesium. If the magesium is still available, then that is what he is > really looking for. If not, then he heard somewhere that they are being > made in Aluminium, and he'd like a source of those. > > > > Mike Francis There was a company that made aftermarket wheels under tha American Eagle name. My experience with them was poorly made wheel likely to be less than true. John From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Jack W. Drews" To: vintage race list Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 19:30:14 -0500 Subject: Aluminum interiors I really enjoy reading everyone's opinions on the authenticity / practicality / safety issue, for they all have a degree of validity and reason. I'm afraid I contributed to the start of this last debate, suggesting that upholstered interior panels be replaced with aluminum ones, both because of safety and because of allowable racing configuration authenticity. I raced SCCA in the 60's, 70,'s, 80's and 90's. My recollection is that by the 70's, the SCCA required required removal of flammable interior panels, and allowed replacement with non-flammable panels. I suppose that someone could research the SCCA archives and determine when this rule was implemented, but would anyone really enjoy the cars or the sport more if we forced them to be more dangerous in a fire? I personally have witnessed four fire situations in two years, three of which were thankfully contained underhood (mine included). There are many similar questions regarding authenticity that could be posed. For example, is the use of headlight openings for venting allowed? During the two years that I raced a TR3 decades ago, the SCCA changed the rule from "no venting through headlight openings" to "ducting allowed through headlight openings". I have photos of my car both ways, both legal. I'd suggest that we not get too serious about this kind of thing, for that could lead to acrimonious debate regarding the year to which a car is "period" prepared....and surely the hobby is not furthered by promoting engine destruction...Personally, I remain thankful for the good sense shown by most vintage sanctioning bodies who welcome cars prepared in the proper spirit... -- uncle jack the carfrek TR4 Rallye Replica vintage racer From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hayes To: Vintage Race List Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 13:14:30 -0400 Subject: Books for Racing Drivers I found a few minutes this long weekend to start compiling a list of my books on cars and racing. I was astounded to find I have 41 books written for racing drivers on race technique, participation, etc. and the oldest was from 1950. Many of these books have been found in used bookstores around the Boston area! Anybody know of any I've missed? Collecting can be obsessive you know... Regards, Jim Title Author Date Racing Drivers Handbook Quisenberry, Jimmy 1950 Racing a Sports Car Mortimer, Charles 1951 Stirling Moss’s Book of Motorsport Moss, Stirling 1955 Sports Car Rallies, Trials & Gymkhanas Hebb, David & Peck, Authur 1956 Guide to Competition Driving O’Shea, Paul 1957 Motor Racing Davis, S.C.H. 1957 The Racing Driver Jenkinson, Denis 1958 The Technique of Motor Racing Taruffi, Piero 1959 Sports Car Events Clarke, Robert 1959 Jack Brabhams Motor Racing Book Brabham, Jack 1960 Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick 1962 Tackle Motor Sport This Way Berg, Ivan 1962 Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1963 Road Racing USA Jackson, Robert 1964 Competitive Driving Roberts, Peter, ed. 1964 Modern Motor Sport Bradford, L.E. 1964 The Art & Technique of Driving Moss, Pat & Carlsson, Erik 1965 A Guide To American Sports Car Racing Stone, William & Dain, martin 1967 Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick & Stone, Bill 1968 Motor Racing in Safety Henderson, Michael 1968 Driving in Competition Alan Johnson 1971 NYTimes Complete Guide to Auto Racing Radosta, John 1971 Road Racing in America Engel, Lyle 1971 Racing Drivers’ Manual Frank Gardner 1973 International Motor Racing Nye, Doug 1973 The Way to Win Turner, Stuart 1974 High Performance Driving Peterson, Paul 1974 The Art & Science of Grand Prix Driving Lauda, Niki 1975 How To Watch Motor Sport Moss, Stirling 1975 Competition Driving Marshall, Gerry 1979 Race Car Driver Kaatz, Evelyn 1979 Playboy’s Guide to Rallying, Racing and Sports Car Driving Neely, William 1981 Driving to Win Holbert, Al & Bob 1982 High Performance Driving Bondurant, Bob 1982 The Drivers Handbook Scott, Peter 1984 High Performance Driving Training Manual Bondurant, Bob 1984 The Art of Motor Racing Fittipaldi, Emerson 1987 Racing Drivers Manual Roos, Bertil 1987 Driver Training Manual McKeever, Dan for Cal Club 1988 Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1992 Principles of Performance Driving Stewart, Jackie 1992 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 14:19:24 EDT Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... That reminds me of the MG-TD with V*60 with ardun heads and webers etc that was at one monterey under HMSA -- quite different than anything I ever saw at any scca race (although of course it could have run in Mod or sports-racing class against DB3s's and Birdcages! There's going to always be some person who made LOTS of money in the 80's and now wants to W-I-N! When I go to Vintage races I see cars like I've never seen before: a small sized Devon with a weber carbd. 302etc. (sure there were chevvy powered devens back then but not in the sprite size!) I see the problem as being the WINNER/LOOSER structure.of vintage racing. YES, thats what racing is but is this what VINTABE racing should be about? Regards; Michael Rogers From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: CLCSF@aol.com To: MRogers726@aol.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 14:29:57 EDT Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... In a message dated 98-07-04 14:20:21 EDT, you write: << I see the problem as being the WINNER/LOOSER structure.of vintage racing. YES, thats what racing is but is this what VINTABE racing should be about? >> Of course it should---- just as it was in the fabled old days. There were those who pushed the envelope then and nothing has changed. Updating and doing whatever is possible to go faster is not necessarily because the owner wants to win - in many cases - he just wants to go faster! In my case, it's like playing golf (ugh) I keep my best track time at every course I've ever run and my goal is to top that lap time. Just like a golfer might be justly proud of a new personal best using an oversized titanium driver, I'm happy as a pig in shit when I increase my valve size (or whatever) and turn a better time. It's about enjoying our hobby. A few golfers play to win, the vast majority play for the companionship and the personal challenge. Don Queen SF From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: thomkuby@ridgecrest.ca.us (thom kuby) To: CLCSF@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... ><< I see the problem as being the WINNER/LOOSER structure.of vintage racing= . >YES, > thats what racing is but is this what VINTABE racing should be about? >> > >Of course it should---- just as it was in the fabled old days. There were >those who pushed the envelope then and nothing has changed. > >Updating and doing whatever is possible to go faster is not necessarily >because the owner wants to win - in many cases - he just wants to go faster= ! > >In my case, it's like playing golf (ugh) I keep my best track time at every >course I've ever run and my goal is to top that lap time. Just like a golfe= r >might be justly proud of a new personal best using an oversized titanium >driver, I'm happy as a pig in shit when I increase my valve size (or whatev= er) >and turn a better time. It's about enjoying our hobby. A few golfers play t= o >win, the vast majority play for the companionship and the personal challeng= e. > >Don Queen SF And THIS is why MOST of us are here...amen If anyone hasta WIN...I suggest they find some more money and go SCCA Pro,= Busch Series, Formula Toyota Atlantic, or some other such venue...Vintage= racing is NOT a contact sport, nor is it really about winning as Don has= pointed out above...but rather about doing better than we did last time, as= well as celebrating (and preserving) some really fine old heaps that mean= something to all of us. Cheers thom kuby '68 Porsche 912 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Steve Hammatt" To: "Jim Hayes" , Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:10:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Books for Racing Drivers Jim After many years of not buying "lotsa books", recently I've been buying many of them at eBay auction site Http://www.eBay.com I have recently added Offenhauser/White,Gordon (in-print) Miller/Borgeson, Griffith Golden Age of the American Racing Car/Borgeson, Griffith (extra copy for sale if anyone is interested $40) Illustrated History of Sprint Cars/Fox, Jack Illustrated History of Indianapolis 500/Fox, Jack Board Tracks, Gut, Gold & Glory/Walloon, Dick I also have 19 years of Automobile Quarterly Vol 1 through Vol 19 (extra) for sale. Looking for AQ Vol 29 to current. Also looking for a book by Mark Dees called The Miller Dynasty. Also looking for any mention of the HAL engined sprint cars from the 30s and 40s. I recently purchased a dirt "Big Car" fitted with a HAL engine (not just a HAL head on a B block, but has HAL block with 5 mains. Need to find all HAL related information. This car was known in the mid-west as the Johnson #8 HAL. Enjoy! Steve Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hayes To: Vintage Race List Date: Saturday, July 04, 1998 10:30 AM Subject: Books for Racing Drivers >I found a few minutes this long weekend to start compiling a list of my >books on cars and racing. I was astounded to find I have 41 books >written for racing drivers on race technique, participation, etc. and >the oldest was from 1950. >Many of these books have been found in used bookstores around the Boston >area! >Anybody know of any I've missed? Collecting can be obsessive you know... > >Regards, Jim > > >Title Author Date >Racing Drivers Handbook Quisenberry, Jimmy 1950 >Racing a Sports Car Mortimer, Charles 1951 >Stirling Moss’s Book of Motorsport Moss, Stirling 1955 >Sports Car Rallies, Trials & Gymkhanas Hebb, David & Peck, Authur 1956 >Guide to Competition Driving O’Shea, Paul 1957 >Motor Racing Davis, S.C.H. 1957 >The Racing Driver Jenkinson, Denis 1958 >The Technique of Motor Racing Taruffi, Piero 1959 >Sports Car Events Clarke, Robert 1959 >Jack Brabhams Motor Racing Book Brabham, Jack 1960 >Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick 1962 >Tackle Motor Sport This Way Berg, Ivan 1962 >Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1963 >Road Racing USA Jackson, Robert 1964 >Competitive Driving Roberts, Peter, ed. 1964 >Modern Motor Sport Bradford, L.E. 1964 >The Art & Technique of Driving Moss, Pat & Carlsson, Erik 1965 >A Guide To American Sports Car Racing Stone, William & Dain, martin 1967 >Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick & Stone, Bill 1968 >Motor Racing in Safety Henderson, Michael 1968 >Driving in Competition Alan Johnson 1971 >NYTimes Complete Guide to Auto Racing Radosta, John 1971 >Road Racing in America Engel, Lyle 1971 >Racing Drivers’ Manual Frank Gardner 1973 >International Motor Racing Nye, Doug 1973 >The Way to Win Turner, Stuart 1974 >High Performance Driving Peterson, Paul 1974 >The Art & Science of Grand Prix Driving Lauda, Niki 1975 >How To Watch Motor Sport Moss, Stirling 1975 >Competition Driving Marshall, Gerry 1979 >Race Car Driver Kaatz, Evelyn 1979 >Playboy’s Guide to Rallying, Racing and Sports Car Driving Neely, >William 1981 >Driving to Win Holbert, Al & Bob 1982 >High Performance Driving Bondurant, Bob 1982 >The Drivers Handbook Scott, Peter 1984 >High Performance Driving Training Manual Bondurant, Bob 1984 >The Art of Motor Racing Fittipaldi, Emerson 1987 >Racing Drivers Manual Roos, Bertil 1987 >Driver Training Manual McKeever, Dan for Cal Club 1988 >Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1992 >Principles of Performance Driving Stewart, Jackie 1992 > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Susan and John Roper To: Jim Hayes Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 16:56:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Books for Racing Drivers You are missing Mark Donahue's book, a tough one to find. John > > I found a few minutes this long weekend to start compiling a list of my > books on cars and racing. I was astounded to find I have 41 books > written for racing drivers on race technique, participation, etc. and > the oldest was from 1950. > Many of these books have been found in used bookstores around the Boston > area! > Anybody know of any I've missed? Collecting can be obsessive you know... > > Regards, Jim > > Title Author Date > Racing Drivers Handbook Quisenberry, Jimmy 1950 > Racing a Sports Car Mortimer, Charles 1951 > Stirling Moss’s Book of Motorsport Moss, Stirling 1955 > Sports Car Rallies, Trials & Gymkhanas Hebb, David & Peck, Authur 1956 > Guide to Competition Driving O’Shea, Paul 1957 > Motor Racing Davis, S.C.H. 1957 > The Racing Driver Jenkinson, Denis 1958 > The Technique of Motor Racing Taruffi, Piero 1959 > Sports Car Events Clarke, Robert 1959 > Jack Brabhams Motor Racing Book Brabham, Jack 1960 > Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick 1962 > Tackle Motor Sport This Way Berg, Ivan 1962 > Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1963 > Road Racing USA Jackson, Robert 1964 > Competitive Driving Roberts, Peter, ed. 1964 > Modern Motor Sport Bradford, L.E. 1964 > The Art & Technique of Driving Moss, Pat & Carlsson, Erik 1965 > A Guide To American Sports Car Racing Stone, William & Dain, martin 1967 > Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick & Stone, Bill 1968 > Motor Racing in Safety Henderson, Michael 1968 > Driving in Competition Alan Johnson 1971 > NYTimes Complete Guide to Auto Racing Radosta, John 1971 > Road Racing in America Engel, Lyle 1971 > Racing Drivers’ Manual Frank Gardner 1973 > International Motor Racing Nye, Doug 1973 > The Way to Win Turner, Stuart 1974 > High Performance Driving Peterson, Paul 1974 > The Art & Science of Grand Prix Driving Lauda, Niki 1975 > How To Watch Motor Sport Moss, Stirling 1975 > Competition Driving Marshall, Gerry 1979 > Race Car Driver Kaatz, Evelyn 1979 > Playboy’s Guide to Rallying, Racing and Sports Car Driving Neely, > William 1981 > Driving to Win Holbert, Al & Bob 1982 > High Performance Driving Bondurant, Bob 1982 > The Drivers Handbook Scott, Peter 1984 > High Performance Driving Training Manual Bondurant, Bob 1984 > The Art of Motor Racing Fittipaldi, Emerson 1987 > Racing Drivers Manual Roos, Bertil 1987 > Driver Training Manual McKeever, Dan for Cal Club 1988 > Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1992 > Principles of Performance Driving Stewart, Jackie 1992 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Susan and John Roper To: MRogers726@aol.com Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 17:02:41 -0500 Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... You guys are assuming that just because you aren't familiar with it, its somehow strange or wrong. When I got my first TD in the fifties, the flat head V860 was a well known conversion. Read Burt Levy's book. But then i guess you would look down your noses at Allards too, and maybe Cunningham and Penske, all engine swap guys in those days. John > > That reminds me of the MG-TD with V*60 with ardun heads and webers etc that > was at one monterey under HMSA -- quite different than anything I ever saw at > any scca race (although of course it could have run in Mod or sports-racing > class against DB3s's and Birdcages! > There's going to always be some person who made LOTS of money in the 80's and > now wants to W-I-N! When I go to Vintage races I see cars like I've never seen > before: a small sized Devon with a weber carbd. 302etc. (sure there were > chevvy powered devens back then but not in the sprite size!) > I see the problem as being the WINNER/LOOSER structure.of vintage racing. YES, > thats what racing is but is this what VINTABE racing should be about? > > Regards; > Michael Rogers From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Ross Fosbender To: MRogers726@aol.com Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 19:48:40 -0700 Subject: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars John Roper wrote: > You guys are assuming that just because you aren't familiar with it, > its somehow strange or wrong. When I got my first TD in the fifties, > the flat head V860 was a well known conversion. Agreed. And Skip Gunnell, now of Florida I believe, had a TD with a small block Chevy that ran C-Mod in the '60s. Jack Meilan (sp?) had a big Healey with a Chevy that raced with us regularly at about the same time. Both were fast and dependable club racing cars. As a just barely converted hot rodder I applauded them then, and I'd love to see that Ardun MG now. It can race with me any time. RossFos From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RIMEY@aol.com To: vscjohn@iamerica.net, owner-vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:40:55 EDT Subject: Re: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... Nothing unusual here. There have always been specials arrive in the pits to be tested against the big money-big-iron. Phill Hill - #2jr. an MG-TD w/ Ford V-60 . Huffaker built a tube chassis special with a Healey that had to run with the 2.5 liter Ferrari's and Masers. Bruce Kessler was supossed to have run a Healey with a Jag stuffed into the 4cyl. engine compartment. Bill McDonald had a Healey with a V8-60, then went to a chevy. Tom Carstens had the Stove Bolt Special; an HWM formula car with a Chevy. One of the prettiest conversions around, and driven by Bill Pollack at 7th Pebble Beach in 1956. Jack Hagemann built a whole passle of MG powered specials. His chrysler powered car driven by John Barneson was raced with some success against the high priced spread. Jack Graham stuffed a chevy in his Aston-Martin complete with added tail fin, and raced that car into the late fifties. There's been a lot of them over the years. The added power to the existing marque chassis's created a new area to deal with -steering geometry. Troutman- Barnes were face with the added problem of turning this added powered into the first turn. They started with their merc powered special, and completed/solved it the Scarab they built for Lance Reventlow. My guess is - if shows up at an event like Monterey, it probably appeared somewhere else many years ago. There have always been guys wanting their cars to go faster, and as long as we have them I don't figure thats going to change much. Ron Yates From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: GDavidson To: Susan and John Roper Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 22:52:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Books for Racing Drivers I found Unfair Advantage on the internet, but it was $285.00! Susan and John Roper wrote: > > You are missing Mark Donahue's book, a tough one to find. John > > > > I found a few minutes this long weekend to start compiling a list of my > > books on cars and racing. I was astounded to find I have 41 books > > written for racing drivers on race technique, participation, etc. and > > the oldest was from 1950. > > Many of these books have been found in used bookstores around the Boston > > area! > > Anybody know of any I've missed? Collecting can be obsessive you know... > > > > Regards, Jim > > > > Title Author Date > > Racing Drivers Handbook Quisenberry, Jimmy 1950 > > Racing a Sports Car Mortimer, Charles 1951 > > Stirling Moss’s Book of Motorsport Moss, Stirling 1955 > > Sports Car Rallies, Trials & Gymkhanas Hebb, David & Peck, Authur 1956 > > Guide to Competition Driving O’Shea, Paul 1957 > > Motor Racing Davis, S.C.H. 1957 > > The Racing Driver Jenkinson, Denis 1958 > > The Technique of Motor Racing Taruffi, Piero 1959 > > Sports Car Events Clarke, Robert 1959 > > Jack Brabhams Motor Racing Book Brabham, Jack 1960 > > Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick 1962 > > Tackle Motor Sport This Way Berg, Ivan 1962 > > Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1963 > > Road Racing USA Jackson, Robert 1964 > > Competitive Driving Roberts, Peter, ed. 1964 > > Modern Motor Sport Bradford, L.E. 1964 > > The Art & Technique of Driving Moss, Pat & Carlsson, Erik 1965 > > A Guide To American Sports Car Racing Stone, William & Dain, martin 1967 > > Getting Ready to Race Anderson, Dick & Stone, Bill 1968 > > Motor Racing in Safety Henderson, Michael 1968 > > Driving in Competition Alan Johnson 1971 > > NYTimes Complete Guide to Auto Racing Radosta, John 1971 > > Road Racing in America Engel, Lyle 1971 > > Racing Drivers’ Manual Frank Gardner 1973 > > International Motor Racing Nye, Doug 1973 > > The Way to Win Turner, Stuart 1974 > > High Performance Driving Peterson, Paul 1974 > > The Art & Science of Grand Prix Driving Lauda, Niki 1975 > > How To Watch Motor Sport Moss, Stirling 1975 > > Competition Driving Marshall, Gerry 1979 > > Race Car Driver Kaatz, Evelyn 1979 > > Playboy’s Guide to Rallying, Racing and Sports Car Driving Neely, > > William 1981 > > Driving to Win Holbert, Al & Bob 1982 > > High Performance Driving Bondurant, Bob 1982 > > The Drivers Handbook Scott, Peter 1984 > > High Performance Driving Training Manual Bondurant, Bob 1984 > > The Art of Motor Racing Fittipaldi, Emerson 1987 > > Racing Drivers Manual Roos, Bertil 1987 > > Driver Training Manual McKeever, Dan for Cal Club 1988 > > Sports Car & Competition Driving Frere, Paul 1992 > > Principles of Performance Driving Stewart, Jackie 1992 -- George Davidson From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hayes To: vscjohn@iamerica.net Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 23:10:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Books for Racing Drivers Susan and John Roper wrote: > > You are missing Mark Donahue's book, a tough one to find. John > > Oh, no! I have that in my biography section - haven't gotten to inventorying those yet! That 3 foot shelf includes The Stainless Steel Carrot, Speed With Style and The Mudge Pond Express, plus two Fitch Bios. Jim From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hayes To: Susan and John Roper Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 23:13:15 -0400 Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... Susan and John Roper wrote: > > You guys are assuming that just because you aren't familiar with it, its > somehow strange or wrong. When I got my first TD in the fifties, the > flat head V860 was a well known conversion. Raced for years with Neil Cargyle who had a Ferrari with a Corvette engine in it - after blowing two Ferrari V12s and getting tired of dealing with Chinetti and Ferrari. Turned down buying the car in the mid 70s with the two blown engines for $4500... sob, sob.... The there was the Maserati 300S in Brockton, MA with the Pontiac V8. Same price, maybe less... From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hayes To: RIMEY@aol.com Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 23:14:46 -0400 Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... RIMEY@aol.com wrote: > > Nothing unusual here. There have always been specials arrive in the pits to be > tested against the big money-big-iron. > > Phill Hill - #2jr. an MG-TD w/ Ford V-60 . > Don't forget Briggs Cunningham and the Bu-Merc. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Steve Hammatt" To: "Vintage Race Car Group" Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:12:58 -0700 Subject: Books for Racing Drivers Jim After many years of not buying "lotsa books", recently I've been buying many of them at eBay auction site Http://www.eBay.com I have recently added Offenhauser/White,Gordon (in-print) Miller/Borgeson, Griffith Golden Age of the American Racing Car/Borgeson, Griffith (extra copy for sale if anyone is interested $40) Illustrated History of Sprint Cars/Fox, Jack Illustrated History of Indianapolis 500/Fox, Jack Board Tracks, Gut, Gold & Glory/Walloon, Dick I also have 19 years of Automobile Quarterly Vol 1 through Vol 19 (extra) for sale. Looking for AQ Vol 29 to current. Also looking for a book by Mark Dees called The Miller Dynasty. Also looking for any mention of the HAL engined sprint cars from the 30s and 40s. I recently purchased a dirt "Big Car" fitted with a HAL engine (not just a HAL head on a B block, but has HAL block with 5 mains. Need to find all HAL related information. This car was known in the mid-west as the Johnson #8 HAL. Enjoy! Steve Steve Hammatt Mount Vernon WA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 01:51:33 EDT Subject: : prepared in the proper spirit... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_899617893_boundary Content-ID: <0_899617893@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII << In a message dated 98-07-04 18:01:10 EDT, you write: << ou guys are assuming that just because you aren't familiar with it, its somehow strange or wrong. When I got my first TD in the fifties, the flat head V860 was a well known conversion. Read Burt Levy's book. But then i guess you would look down your noses at Allards too, and maybe Cunningham and Penske, all engine swap guys in those days. John >> NO YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT YOU'RE THE ONLY OLDE FART HERE! I recall that Road and track had an article on a 265/283 in a TD but did YOU EVER see or hear of a V*-60 equipped with ARDUN heads much less with 48IDA's--in fact did you even see anything before the 60's with them.Webers were EXOTIC! you will recall that the Jaguar XK-120c not to mention the MG Twin cam, Healy 100S, and other race type production cars didn't have webers! If some person stuffed a V*-60 in his TD it was because it was a cheaper way to go faster than buying one of the above mentioned go-fasters. To spend enough to buy one of them on the arduns and webers wasn't generally-if ever done. Michael* >> --part0_899617893_boundary Content-ID: <0_899617893@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: MRogers726@aol.com Return-path: To: vscjohn@iamerica.net Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 01:49:41 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-07-04 18:01:10 EDT, you write: << ou guys are assuming that just because you aren't familiar with it, its somehow strange or wrong. When I got my first TD in the fifties, the flat head V860 was a well known conversion. Read Burt Levy's book. But then i guess you would look down your noses at Allards too, and maybe Cunningham and Penske, all engine swap guys in those days. John >> NO YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT YOU'RE THE ONLY OLDE FART HERE! I recall that Road and track had an article on a 265/283 in a TD but did YOU EVER see or hear of a V*-60 equipped with ARDUN heads much less with 48IDA's--in fact did you even see anything before the 60's with them.Webers were EXOTIC! you will recall that the Jaguar XK-120c not to mention the MG Twin cam, Healy 100S, and other race type production cars didn't have webers! If some person stuffed a V*-60 in his TD it was because it was a cheaper way to go faster than buying one of the above mentioned go-fasters. To spend enough to buy one of them on the arduns and webers wasn't generally-if ever done. Michael* --part0_899617893_boundary-- From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: GDavidson To: Jim Hayes Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 05:50:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Books for Racing Drivers Jim, I left this off my last post. Do you know of a book written maybe in the 50's about early days of sports car racing in the New Enland area. I think the title is something like "The Road From ......?" Tells of the antics of a group of guys growning up with cars. Also I believe this same group made some movies, which might have been mentioned in the book. Does any of this ring a bell with you? Jim Hayes wrote: > > Susan and John Roper wrote: > > > > You are missing Mark Donahue's book, a tough one to find. John > > > > > Oh, no! I have that in my biography section - haven't gotten to > inventorying those yet! That 3 foot shelf includes The Stainless Steel > Carrot, Speed With Style and The Mudge Pond Express, plus two Fitch > Bios. > Jim -- George Davidson From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Stanford Vann To: mfrancis@triax.com Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 22:29:38 -0400 Subject: Minilites Mark, I picked up a copy of Motorsport (english mag) a couple of months ago and it included a copy of Demon Tweeks motorsport catalog. They have a Minilite wheel by Compomotive that is a dead ringer. They are aluminum and come in 13x5 to 18x8. Telephone 01144 1978 664466 to request catalog or to order. Stan Vann Caldwell D9 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Clark Smith To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:14:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Books for Racing Drivers I bought my copy at a library book sale for 25 cents. One of the few deals I've fallen into... Still looking for a reasonable copy of Preston Lehner's Scarab book, circa 1991. Clark >I found Unfair Advantage on the internet, but it was $285.00! > >Susan and John Roper wrote: >> From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 01:34:20 EDT Subject: Re: prepared in the proper spirit... In a message dated 98-07-05 12:35:40 EDT, you write: << Lets see if I understand. Now your complaint is that flat motor in the TD had the wrong heads and carbs. I'm having trouble keeping up. It would have been ok with twin 97s and offy heads? By the way, the first prototype of the A twin cam was turned out to race with DCOs. John >> If Were speaking of the spirit of cars typical of the 50's than I at least am referring to cars that one would HAVE seen at the races not cars that COULD HAVE been there. I make no argument that someone COULD have whittled their own motor of unobtanium with four valves per cyl and cams to match and used a six speed of their own design and construction. I just didn't read or see any of these and so if I see one claiming to be a resurected fiftys racer I"m a bit skeptal of it's authenticity. This is especially true when I see high tech modificationjs on a production car. There have been many innovative sports racing cars (modifieds) but aside from the Hi Buck factory or such cars they rarely had webers --unless they were italian! The prototype DOHC MG-A falls under this. It seems to me that one couldn't even obtain the Webers as a factory racing part much less as an option either! Regards; Michael Rogers Dolphin Porsche FA Genie Ford Caldwell Mk III 1952 Jag Special LaDwari Special none with anything not run in the time of its origination but the seat belts and other safety equipment From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: Ross Fosbender Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:19:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars I love to see things as they were, too. But should we encourage the creation of a new V8 engined MG-TD? Or should we insist that it had to be that way in the period? I tend towards it has to have the history to run as a modified car to that extent. (same goes for recreations of Sebring Sprites, BTW). Brian At 10:48 PM 7/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >John Roper wrote: >> You guys are assuming that just because you aren't familiar with it, > its somehow strange or wrong. When I got my first TD in the fifties, >> the flat head V860 was a well known conversion. > >Agreed. And Skip Gunnell, now of Florida I believe, had a TD with a >small block Chevy that ran C-Mod in the '60s. Jack Meilan (sp?) had a >big Healey with a Chevy that raced with us regularly at about the same >time. Both were fast and dependable club racing cars. As a just barely >converted hot rodder I applauded them then, and I'd love to see that >Ardun MG now. It can race with me any time. >RossFos > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Rockney, Vaughn (GEIS)" To: "'Vintage Race List'" Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:19:23 -0400 Subject: Finished the Red Lotus Listers, I finished the restoration of the red Lotus 51 Formula Ford over the long 4th of July weekend. Its entered to debut in the Dodge Vintage Festival at Lime Rock over Labor Day weekend. I posted the last pictures and the complete story at: http://www.vintagegarage.com/ajlotus51.html Info for the Dodge Vintage Festival is at: http://www.sascosports.com/dodgevf/ Next project is the R-8, with the goal finish it by the 1998 Jefferson 500! Vaughn From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Susan and John Roper To: Brian Evans Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:52:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars Brian Evans wrote: > > I love to see things as they were, too. But should we encourage the > creation of a new V8 engined MG-TD? Or should we insist that it had to be > that way in the period? I tend towards it has to have the history to run as > a modified car to that extent. (same goes for recreations of Sebring > Sprites, BTW). > > Brian > > At 10:48 PM 7/4/98 -0400, you wrote: > >John Roper wrote: > >> You guys are assuming that just because you aren't familiar with it, > > its somehow strange or wrong. When I got my first TD in the fifties, > >> the flat head V860 was a well known conversion. > > > >Agreed. And Skip Gunnell, now of Florida I believe, had a TD with a > >small block Chevy that ran C-Mod in the '60s. Jack Meilan (sp?) had a > >big Healey with a Chevy that raced with us regularly at about the same > >time. Both were fast and dependable club racing cars. As a just barely > >converted hot rodder I applauded them then, and I'd love to see that > >Ardun MG now. It can race with me any time. > >RossFos > > I agree. I do not agree with the reprodoodad movement in Vintage, whether it be a newly created V8 TD or a SWB built fron a 250E. I do not , however, agree with the originality at all costs mentality. Having lived in the golden era(the 50s)and still being active in the neat car world today, I cannot abide those who just have to tell others what they can do with their machinery. I have good friends who are committed to originality. I respect their right to approach their cars that way, but the truth of it is that much that is passed off at original is not even close, i.e. many over restored trailer queens. When these old tubs were new many were modified to improve on the factory efforts. IMHO true originality recognizes that and respects change for the purpose of making the metal better fit the owners wishes. John Roper From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Craig Wright To: "Rockney, Vaughn (GEIS)" Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:06:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Finished the Red Lotus Great documentary! Craig Wright Rockney, Vaughn (GEIS) wrote: > Listers, > I finished the restoration of the red Lotus 51 Formula Ford over the long > 4th of July weekend. Its entered to debut in the Dodge Vintage Festival at > Lime Rock over Labor Day weekend. I posted the last pictures and the > complete story at: > > http://www.vintagegarage.com/ajlotus51.html > > Info for the Dodge Vintage Festival is at: > > http://www.sascosports.com/dodgevf/ > > Next project is the R-8, with the goal finish it by the 1998 Jefferson > 500! > > Vaughn -- ********************************************************************** Craig Wright Product Design Group, Inc. craig@p-d-g.com 4635 Viewridge Ave. (619) 569-3484 x309 San Diego, CA 92123 fax: (619) 569-3490 http://www.p-d-g.com ********************************************************************** From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Tobin,Herbert" To: "'Vintage Race'" Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:50:10 -0400 Subject: Where to test run a Cooper I am in the process of bringing a Formula III (500 cc) Cooper-Norton that has not been run for close to twenty years back to operational status. Can anyone suggest where I might get a chance to exercise this car? I am a long time member of VSCCA so I know about their events. Are there other clubs that stage relatively low key events for which this type of car would be suitable and welcome? My first choice would be an autocross or a hillclimb within a reasonable distance from the Boston area. Is there such a thing? Herb Tobin From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: clark@dnf.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:17:43 EDT Subject: Re: Period Fantasy VS Reality In a message dated 98-07-06 02:20:10 EDT, you write: << To me, this waters down the importance of his car. I was just joking around, but I suggested he make a Devin body for some other chassis, perhaps less valuable than the TR3, like the Ford Fiesta. It would protect a few TR3s while saving a few worthless chassis. I never heard back...I honestly was only kidding around....I didn't mean to offend him. I would love to know more about your Dolphin as well as the LaDwari. Will the Dolphin be at Monterey? > I agree with you also Clark! I imagine some of the bad kitcars I've seen: Devins on VW chassis complete with stock motor, a full up Lola t70 on same (URP!) better to use some non-notable body design. I wonder If I've hit some in their reality with my comments! I, of course with the mist of time picture the days when one (anyone) ncould race what they had be it an OPEL record-( I actually saw one!) or their Chev powered TD (mindless as that is!) they hardly had enough brakes for that anemic 1250 much less 5X that. I got the La Dwari up at Turlock,Ca, It has a 50's ford chassis a 302 w/2 4bbls. and all the appropriate bits. It's a bit too big and heavy for racing and of course isn't very sophisticated but is reputed to have run at some tracks in Central California. (another fascinating subject-over time we've raced EVERYWHERE!) I got it in a great heap and it is patiently waiting untill I get some of the other toys out of the way. I'm finishing up the Dolphin Porsche now for Laguna. It is an early car and was raced by Bruce Trenery. He and I went to driving school together and he might have driven it there-I don't recall but he did drive some type of a VW powered formula car. It is really a nicely designed car but contrary to LOTUS legdened of being fragile--TOO strong!.It was designed by John Crosthwaite of Lotus. It has a 356 SC with SOLEXES (HA no webers)! and has either a destroked crank for 1500 cc or the standard 1600cc. Some of the history indicates it was a formula A car and it has also run as a B. I've taken it completely apart and am now re-skinning it etc. My huckbolt shooter broke its guts last nite so I've got to see what I can do about that. Gotta get on with it; Michael From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hill To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:45:56 -0500 Subject: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars In response to some of the recent comments about vintage racing's = raison d'=EAtre: Life is a series of never-ending compromises. Especially when you're trying to recreate something that no longer exists (like the past) or something that perhaps never did exist (like ourselves as the pilots of famous racing cars). The good news is that we all get to decide where = to make those compromises, where to draw lines, and who we want to play with.=20 Tell me this: If you happened to own the Cooper Monaco that Stirling Moss put on the pole at the Times Mirror Grand Prix for Sports Cars at Riverside at the dawn of the sixties, and it had been hermetically sealed until you bought it yesterday, would it be the "same car" = without a thirty-year-old, pre-Goodwood Stirling at the wheel?=20 Would it be the "same car" if you ran it today with Valvoline oil, without a hint of the smell of burning castor oil that was the hallmark of the racing cars I remember from that time? (Who knew that a laxative could supply such an exotic aroma?) If I have to buy someone else's history to get on the track, I can't afford it. Besides, I'd miss half the fun that _WAS_ sports car racing in the 50's and 60's - trying to turn a sports car into a passable race car. Multiple choice - Which of the following cars is more "period correct" (i.e., the one you'd most like to see next to you on the grid at Road America): 1) A mid-50's special that was raced for some 20 years, during which time every part from the steering wheel on out was wrecked and/or replaced with a part that was lighter, faster, more aerodynamic, etc. (Suppose it started out looking like just another MG-based special and now it looks like a spec racer with a Kevlar body.) 2) That same 50's special that's now been "restored", using modern materials and techniques to recreate all those now-unobtainable = original parts. Of course the frame is all new higher quality steel, and the = body was fabricated by an artist in aluminum rather than being beaten into rough shape with a mallet . . . &etc 3) A "brand new" special, built last winter by the same fellow who originally built the car above, who's used the same 50's technology = that went into the construction of the original car - and built for the same reason: because it was fun. (Perhaps, as someone suggested, a "new V8 engined MG-TD") 4) Your best friend's restoration/racecar project, which began with the remains of a Healey 100 of undetermined origin and which has consumed two parts cars, every period-correct speed and reliability modification that could be found, the finest modern safety equipment that money can buy, and five of the happiest years of his life. 5) A brand new Speedwell Sprite replica containing not a single part more than 6 months old, but with a grinning now-68-year-old Stirling Moss behind the wheel - about to provide you with a story you can tell for the rest of your life regardless of the outcome. Me? I'd like to see them all. If we remember that it's more about "vintage" than about "racing", and we don't lie about our cars, and we can hang on to the goal of period authenticity without spending all our time debating history and eligibility, and drive with the proper = respect for each other and the cars, we can all have a good time. Jim Hill SpyderWeb Racing Amici Triumphi Madison WI Motto: The First Concept of Superior Principle is Always Defeated by = the Perfected Example of Established Practice From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: Jim_Hill@chsra.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:25:22 EDT Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars In a message dated 98-07-06 15:17:58 EDT, you write: << If we remember that it's more about "vintage" than about "racing", and we don't lie about our cars, (and our exploits) NOW HOLD ON-- THERE ARE LIMITS TO THIS THING! and we can hang on to the goal of period authenticity without spending all our time debating history and eligibility, and drive with the proper respect for each other and the cars, we can all have a good time. >> VARA seems to do a great job of this Michael Rogers From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Alexander Joseph H To: "'Vintage Race'" , Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:44:34 -0500 Subject: Daimler SP250 Daimler Enthusiasts...or to people who have an interest in a beast that was built on a version of the TR3 frame.................................... About 100 yards to the east of me resides a SP250. It has not been driven for about 25 years and likely more. Part of that time it resided outdoors in the northern clime. It is now in the garage. It is clearly a project car of some unknown value. Over the years the owner, an eccentric genius, has had a somewhat expanded view of it's value. (My opinion) He is now seriously contemplating his existence and is increasingly interested in selling it. His name is Bob Butschy and he resides in Cedar Falls, Iowa 319.266.9552 Bob called the other evening & I told him I would pass the word along. If you call him, you may mention this e-mail...but be assured I have no financial interest. I would refer not to get in the middle of this transaction, but if someone gets SERIOUS about looking at it or needs some help, I will be close at hand to help if it is required....in the spirit of vintage racing. In the words of Team Thicko's Flounder, "Pack a Lunch, Bob can be a little long winded"....but he IS a good neighbor. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: FG99@aol.com To: svann@schoollink.net Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:43:21 EDT Subject: Re: Minilites Mark, I also have the Demon Tweeks catalog. Minilites are shown in a variety of sizes, made by Minilite of England. Another wheel shown in the catalog that appears to be a dead ringer for the Minilites on my 69 Trans Am Camaro is made by "Performance". The center hub section, as well as the spokes look identical to late 60's early 70's but, the name Performance is cast into the hub section. Although my catalog is a few years old, both the Minilite and Performance brands appear remarkably inexpensive. I suppose, unless you have a contact in the UK, shipping costs might outway the seemingly low price of the wheels. Stan already gave you the phone number. The address is: Demon Tweeks Hugmore Lane, Lian-y-Pwll, Wrexham, Clwyd, UK LL13 9YE If you want I could mail you a copy of the page from the catalog showing the wheels. Fred Greco From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Ross Fosbender To: Brian Evans Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 21:05:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars Brian Evans wrote: > > I love to see things as they were, too. But should we encourage the > creation of a new V8 engined MG-TD? Or should we insist that it had to be > that way in the period? I tend towards it has to have the history to run as > a modified car to that extent. (same goes for recreations of Sebring > Sprites, BTW). Sorry, I was there and I still don't get all choked up about "racing history". I recall an Alfa builder in one of the hard-nosed groups doing his best to get me to swear that his car was one I drove in the dark ages (it wasn't and we both knew it) so it would have some "history". Brings to mind the famous line about the Mk. 8F- of the eleven built, 23 still exist! Attitude, not hardware, is the key in V/H. RossFos From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Wm. Severin Thompson" To: "Jim Hill" , Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:29:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars Jim, Very well put, right on the money. WST Team Thicko -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hill To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Monday, July 06, 1998 2:15 PM Subject: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars In response to some of the recent comments about vintage racing's raison d'être: Life is a series of never-ending compromises. Especially when you're trying to recreate something that no longer exists (like the past) or something that perhaps never did exist (like ourselves as the pilots of famous racing cars). The good news is that we all get to decide where to make those compromises, where to draw lines, and who we want to play with. Tell me this: If you happened to own the Cooper Monaco that Stirling Moss put on the pole at the Times Mirror Grand Prix for Sports Cars at Riverside at the dawn of the sixties, and it had been hermetically sealed until you bought it yesterday, would it be the "same car" without a thirty-year-old, pre-Goodwood Stirling at the wheel? Would it be the "same car" if you ran it today with Valvoline oil, without a hint of the smell of burning castor oil that was the hallmark of the racing cars I remember from that time? (Who knew that a laxative could supply such an exotic aroma?) If I have to buy someone else's history to get on the track, I can't afford it. Besides, I'd miss half the fun that _WAS_ sports car racing in the 50's and 60's - trying to turn a sports car into a passable race car. Multiple choice - Which of the following cars is more "period correct" (i.e., the one you'd most like to see next to you on the grid at Road America): 1) A mid-50's special that was raced for some 20 years, during which time every part from the steering wheel on out was wrecked and/or replaced with a part that was lighter, faster, more aerodynamic, etc. (Suppose it started out looking like just another MG-based special and now it looks like a spec racer with a Kevlar body.) 2) That same 50's special that's now been "restored", using modern materials and techniques to recreate all those now-unobtainable original parts. Of course the frame is all new higher quality steel, and the body was fabricated by an artist in aluminum rather than being beaten into rough shape with a mallet . . . &etc 3) A "brand new" special, built last winter by the same fellow who originally built the car above, who's used the same 50's technology that went into the construction of the original car - and built for the same reason: because it was fun. (Perhaps, as someone suggested, a "new V8 engined MG-TD") 4) Your best friend's restoration/racecar project, which began with the remains of a Healey 100 of undetermined origin and which has consumed two parts cars, every period-correct speed and reliability modification that could be found, the finest modern safety equipment that money can buy, and five of the happiest years of his life. 5) A brand new Speedwell Sprite replica containing not a single part more than 6 months old, but with a grinning now-68-year-old Stirling Moss behind the wheel - about to provide you with a story you can tell for the rest of your life regardless of the outcome. Me? I'd like to see them all. If we remember that it's more about "vintage" than about "racing", and we don't lie about our cars, and we can hang on to the goal of period authenticity without spending all our time debating history and eligibility, and drive with the proper respect for each other and the cars, we can all have a good time. Jim Hill SpyderWeb Racing Amici Triumphi Madison WI Motto: The First Concept of Superior Principle is Always Defeated by the Perfected Example of Established Practice From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Greg Burrowes" To: , Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:19:47 +1000 Subject: RE: Minilites I think the Performance wheels you mentioned are made by Speedy Wheels Ltd in Adelaide, South Australia Greg Burrowes HRCCQ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net > [mailto:owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of FG99@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, 7 July 1998 9:43 > To: svann@schoollink.net > Cc: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net > Subject: Re: Minilites > > > Mark, > I also have the Demon Tweeks catalog. Minilites are shown in a variety of > sizes, made by Minilite of England. Another wheel shown in the > catalog that > appears to be a dead ringer for the Minilites on my 69 Trans Am > Camaro is made > by "Performance". The center hub section, as well as the spokes look > identical to late 60's early 70's but, the name Performance is > cast into the > hub section. Although my catalog is a few years old, both the Minilite and > Performance brands appear remarkably inexpensive. I suppose, > unless you have a > contact in the UK, shipping costs might outway the seemingly low > price of the > wheels. > Stan already gave you the phone number. The address is: > > Demon Tweeks > Hugmore Lane, Lian-y-Pwll, Wrexham, > Clwyd, UK LL13 9YE > > If you want I could mail you a copy of the page from the catalog > showing the > wheels. > Fred Greco > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Christopher H. Kang, MD" To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:42:29 -0700 Subject: Visalia Vintage Auto Festival For those of you who were curious about this event, held last weekend here's a short report: This was the first (and hoped for future) gathering of generally early 1900 type racing cars to celebrate the auto races held in Visalia,California (south of Fresno, north of Bakersfield; for those from Iowa, that's inland about 100 miles inland from the ocean in the middle of the state). This was basically an exhibition for the cars. The format was grouped runs around the track "at speed" which ran through/on the park road. I'd call it 1/3 Vintage race cars and 3/4 concurs,hot rods,club gathering, and even a few low riders. I think it was a good presentation to the general public what Vintage racing is and the cars involved. What was there: a former Peugot Indy car, a Stuz, Mercedes were the "well knowns" early 1900's. I was impressed with the speed these could carry around the short "exhibition,no racing track". Also a non runnig National and a couple others I'd never heard of and the name didn't stick. Add some model T racers, a few offy sprint cars, a front engined (ie vintage) Top Fuel dragster(which they fired up just for the noise and smoke), a Lola Can-Am, some of Shelby's Shelbys/Cobras, a couple of Loti (elite,FF), and a few quarter midgets. Ecclectic, but nice to look at and a pleasant way to spend the 4th of July. Of interest to other state resident was the "Official" celebration of SB42 which exempted pre'74 cars from smog checks. It was mentioned that the basic Bill was being used as a pattern for other states to enact similar exemption laws-you can still hope. christopher From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike & Jaye Rosen To: Jim Hill Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:19:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars Well put Jim: I have to admit that participating in this group is slooooly changing my attitude (Brian Evans please stop reading here - I don't want your opinion of me to change). I was, and still mainly feel that without a fair degree of originality we're all fooling ourselves as what Vintage Racing really is - but... I'm getting to the point where I'd rather see a grid full of interesting specials and period correct modified cars - even if they're not all documented as having existed in that manner than continually see all the neat old cars dissapear and get replaced by pre'72 Formula Fords. Sorry Vaughn! Individually I like cars like V. Rockney's 51s but collectively, when someone gets rid of a Lotus 7, a Europa, a TVR Vixen, a Ginetta G4 and buys a Merlyn 11A I don't get it. I know I'm going get slagged by all the single seat guys but our grids (up here in Canada anyway) are 10% as interesting as they were 10 years ago. And the "posing/big buck/I've got more crew than you" stuff has increased in proportion to the decrease in interesting cars. I'd rather have a V8 Fight the homoginization - buy and race weird. Mike Rosen - 1958 VAY Canada Class Special From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Jack W. Drews" To: Jim Hill Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:29:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars Jim Hill wrote: > > In response to some of the recent comments about vintage racing's raison > d'être: > > Life is a series of never-ending compromises.... > Me? I'd like to see them all. ME TOO.... > > Jim Hill > SpyderWeb Racing > Amici Triumphi > Madison WI > Motto: The First Concept of Superior Principle is Always Defeated by the > Perfected Example of Established Practice There are a few email messages that I save just because they are so worthwhile. This one goes to the top of that list. -- uncle jack the carfrek TR4 Rallye Replica vintage racer From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Alexander Joseph H To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:39:43 -0500 Subject: Visalia Vintage Auto Festival Thanks for the report. Alexander Racing...(from the cornfields of Iowa). ---------- From: Christopher H. Kang, MD[SMTP:chkangmd@qnis.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 1:42 AM To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Subject: Visalia Vintage Auto Festival For those of you who were curious about this event, held last weekend here's a short report: This was the first (and hoped for future) gathering of generally early 1900 type racing cars to celebrate the auto races held in Visalia,California (south of Fresno, north of Bakersfield; for those from Iowa, that's inland about 100 miles inland from the ocean in the middle of the state). This was basically an exhibition for the cars. The format was grouped runs around the track "at speed" which ran through/on the park road. I'd call it 1/3 Vintage race cars and 3/4 concurs,hot rods,club gathering, and even a few low riders. I think it was a good presentation to the general public what Vintage racing is and the cars involved. What was there: a former Peugot Indy car, a Stuz, Mercedes were the "well knowns" early 1900's. I was impressed with the speed these could carry around the short "exhibition,no racing track". Also a non runnig National and a couple others I'd never heard of and the name didn't stick. Add some model T racers, a few offy sprint cars, a front engined (ie vintage) Top Fuel dragster(which they fired up just for the noise and smoke), a Lola Can-Am, some of Shelby's Shelbys/Cobras, a couple of Loti (elite,FF), and a few quarter midgets. Ecclectic, but nice to look at and a pleasant way to spend the 4th of July. Of interest to other state resident was the "Official" celebration of SB42 which exempted pre'74 cars from smog checks. It was mentioned that the basic Bill was being used as a pattern for other states to enact similar exemption laws-you can still hope. christopher From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:57:44 EDT Subject: Test #2 I posted this last week and I don't think it went out. Did anyone see it? If I don't get my own message to the VR net back as e-mail, does this mean that no one else received it either? How can I confirm that a message actually got to where I intended it to go? I understand race cars pretty well, but this computer stuff drives me crazy. I truly respect you guys who live and die in the electronic world. Jack Woehrle From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:07:37 EDT Subject: Re: Visalia Vintage Auto Festival In a message dated 98-07-07 03:49:22 EDT, you write: << . The format was grouped runs around the track "at speed" which ran through/on the park road. >> Was this one of the early road racing tracks? I'd be interested in hearing of the other California road racing courses. There were two here in San Louis Obispo, another in Los Osos and one in Santa Maria not to mention the world venue Golita (Santa Barbara) course. Regards; Michael Rogers From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: S800Racer@aol.com To: mra@sympatico.ca, owner-vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:15:44 EDT Subject: Re: buy and race weird Team Escargot fully supports the motto: "Buy and race weird" Along with our Honda powered vintage racers (1967 S800 and 1969 D sports racer), the most recent restoration project is the 1972 Honda Z600 Coupe of Team leader, Paul Meis. With both air-cooled cylinders buzzing away, it is the 'Bad Ride" in microcars. While the purists may not approve, I think the hood scoop added to clear the flat-slide carb looks pretty cool. P.S. Among others, we also support the mottos: - Rub shoulders, not fenders - I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. - My two favorite brands of beer are Free and Cold. Cheers, Doug Meis (although I may race a weird car, I do try not to 'race weird') From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jari Tabell To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 20:40:03 -0700 Subject: Spitfire Racing Site updated Hi there, Greetings from Finland I have updated my Spitfire Historic Racing Site with the latest race report and some new pics: http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jtabell Please visit and give your comments Regards, Jari From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: pmeis@bgsm.edu (paul meis) To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Test #2 >I posted this last week and I don't think it went out. Did anyone see it? If I >don't get my own message to the VR net back as e-mail, does this mean that no >one else received it either? How can I confirm that a message actually got to >where I intended it to go? I understand race cars pretty well, but this >computer stuff drives me crazy. I truly respect you guys who live and die in >the electronic world. > >Jack Woehrle We usually assume that the technical director of SVRA is GOD, (or is it Godzilla?), and is all-knowing, so we didn't think acknowledging a test message was necessary. We receive you loud and clear. Paul Meis, Team Escargot From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:42:26 EDT Subject: test #3 Bear with me now. This is one of the messages I tried to post last week. SVRA NEWSLETTER Tech Notes Jack Woehrle, Technical Director (803) 783-6906 phone/fax JWoesvra@aol.com 7/2/98 Alternate Interiors: The question of what is our position on the removal or replacement of interior trim panels on Production Cars has come up. After consulting the period rule books and talking with a few old timers, I have this conclusion. There are several ways to look at this subject. A. What was permitted by the rules. Pre-1960: There is little reference to this subject before 1960. 1960-70: FIA Groups 2 & 4, to which most circuit racers were prepared, (Groups 1 & 3 are essentially showroom stock Groups and are/were mainly used for rallies) allowed manufacturers to list alternate panels as long as 100 sets were available to the public. The SCCA prohibited "gutting". B. What was actually done. FIA scruitineers usually allowed neatly installed alternate panels from various sources as most factories didn’t really supply the "kits" as such. SCCA permitted the interior panels to be replaced with a suitable alternate material. It was usually not considered gutting unless the panels were removed completely and the resulting openings were left exposed. By 1965, it was common to see race cars with aluminum door panels and dividers between the trunk and cockpit. Stock dash panels were usually left in place. The Trans-Am series required original trim panels for the first few years at least. C. Why was it done. Certainly there was a little weight to be saved in some models. However, as in my own case it was just an attempt to make the car neater when the originals began to deteriorate. I put aluminum door panels in my Spitefire in 1966. I had no idea how much my car weighed and I don’t remember being very concerned about it. I thought it made the car look more like a race car. I also took out the roll-up windows at the same time, even though I was still driving to and from the races. Tech inspectors encouraged the removal of any fire hazard, even if the rules sometimes seemed to prohibit it. D. What is appropriate now. I think anything that is neat and reasonably period appearing is acceptable. Pre-1960 cars would be incorrect if the interior was changed. Owners of later cars should use good judgment and avoid complete "skinning" until the post 1970 period. This is really more of an esthetics issue than an absolute rule. >From a safety standpoint, most vinyl material is very nasty in a fire. I have seen several cars at our races recently with aluminum door panels that have a photo decal of the original trim panel. I don’t see this as a performance enhancing modification as all of our cars still must meet their listed minimum weight, and in actual fact there isn’t a lot of weight reduction in most cases anyway. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:18:32 EDT Subject: test #4, spark plugs OK, things are starting to work now. I just got test #3 back over the net. I had attached the original piece to the first posting. I wonder if that affected any thing? Now spark plugs: Someone had asked about an interchange with an early Lodge plug which was also a match for Champion N3. By far the best plugs I have used recently are the Champion C61YC (794) range. C59YC colder, C63YC hotter. These fit most British cars and bikes. I much prefer them over N3G, N3C, NGK B8EV, Bosch, etc. They are very easy to read and have shown very good life. The only downside is that they crack easily and you have to be very careful putting them in or taking them out. If you crack one you will get a misfire imediately. Sometimes it is hard to see the crack which occurs right at the point where the insulator enters the metal ferrule. If you get a skip upon restart, check for cracked plugs. Good luck. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "Vintage race" Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:30:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Parts washer solvents I've found the best way to solve the problem of good solvent and disposal of the waste is to buy a 20 gallon "set-up" from Safety Clean and then "cancel" the monthly service after 1 month. When I eventually need a replacement I call and order another "setup" and they pickup the old barrel and bring me a new one. I believe it costs me a little over $100 about once a year and I don't have to worry about how to dispose of the fluid. GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Calvin Krug To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:57:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: re: Race weird Some could say I corner like lightning. I never hit the same apex twice. Does this count as "racing weird"? Calvin Krug From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "Vintage race" Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:14:18 -0400 Subject: Oops! Sorry! Sent the thing about parts washer fluid to the wrong group. GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bill Dalton To: Jim Hill Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 19:11:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Big V8s in Little Sports Cars Jim Hill wrote: > > In response to some of the recent comments about vintage racing's raison > d'être: > > Life is a series of never-ending compromises. Especially when you're > trying to recreate something that no longer exists (like the past) or > something that perhaps never did exist (like ourselves as the pilots of > famous racing cars). The good news is that we all get to decide where to > make those compromises, where to draw lines, and who we want to play > with. > > Tell me this: If you happened to own the Cooper Monaco that Stirling > Moss put on the pole at the Times Mirror Grand Prix for Sports Cars at > Riverside at the dawn of the sixties, and it had been hermetically > sealed until you bought it yesterday, would it be the "same car" without > a thirty-year-old, pre-Goodwood Stirling at the wheel? > > Would it be the "same car" if you ran it today with Valvoline oil, > without a hint of the smell of burning castor oil that was the hallmark > of the racing cars I remember from that time? (Who knew that a laxative > could supply such an exotic aroma?) > > If I have to buy someone else's history to get on the track, I can't > afford it. Besides, I'd miss half the fun that _WAS_ sports car racing > in the 50's and 60's - trying to turn a sports car into a passable race > car. > > Multiple choice - Which of the following cars is more "period correct" > (i.e., the one you'd most like to see next to you on the grid at Road > America): > > 1) A mid-50's special that was raced for some 20 years, during which > time every part from the steering wheel on out was wrecked and/or > replaced with a part that was lighter, faster, more aerodynamic, etc. > (Suppose it started out looking like just another MG-based special and > now it looks like a spec racer with a Kevlar body.) > > 2) That same 50's special that's now been "restored", using modern > materials and techniques to recreate all those now-unobtainable original > parts. Of course the frame is all new higher quality steel, and the body > was fabricated by an artist in aluminum rather than being beaten into > rough shape with a mallet . . . &etc > > 3) A "brand new" special, built last winter by the same fellow who > originally built the car above, who's used the same 50's technology that > went into the construction of the original car - and built for the same > reason: because it was fun. (Perhaps, as someone suggested, a "new V8 > engined MG-TD") > > 4) Your best friend's restoration/racecar project, which began with the > remains of a Healey 100 of undetermined origin and which has consumed > two parts cars, every period-correct speed and reliability modification > that could be found, the finest modern safety equipment that money can > buy, and five of the happiest years of his life. > > 5) A brand new Speedwell Sprite replica containing not a single part > more than 6 months old, but with a grinning now-68-year-old Stirling > Moss behind the wheel - about to provide you with a story you can tell > for the rest of your life regardless of the outcome. > > Me? I'd like to see them all. If we remember that it's more about > "vintage" than about "racing", and we don't lie about our cars, and we > can hang on to the goal of period authenticity without spending all our > time debating history and eligibility, and drive with the proper respect > for each other and the cars, we can all have a good time. > > Jim Hill > SpyderWeb Racing > Amici Triumphi > Madison WI > Motto: The First Concept of Superior Principle is Always Defeated by the > Perfected Example of Established Practice Jim has hit the nail on the head. Way back when I was in college from 1959 to 1963, we had guys modifying cars which for the most part never got raced but were street driven. In my class of 24 Mechanical Engineers, we had a TD with a 265 Chevy, a stock 53 Allard K2 -I think was the designation, -a Cad powered full fendered machine. A 60 MGA with a 283 Chevy, a 59 MGA with a 260 Ford, and my 57 Plymouth with hand built swaybars, beefed up suspension, sort of a watts linkage and a killer 301 with 3 speed OD for a total of 6 forward speeds.Some of my friends outside of college had a 53 Studilac, a 54 Fordilac with the glass hood. we were all into modifying and racing either on the drag strip or the road courses. Nobody was particularly interested in what class they were put in as long as they could race. We were not turned away any place. The organizers would find a class to put the car in and let us have some fun. If today's vintage "racing" takes the hard nosed attitude that the car must be totally original from the 60's, there will be some interesting, but very small grids, since many people will not bring not their very expensive machinery, nor can too many people even begin to afford them. I see nothing wrong with period prepared cars that are not original race cars but are correctly prepared for the period with todays safety modifications. --As long as they are not tried to be passed off as an original race car. In my opinion, the spirit of vintage racing is to have a period appearing car with today's safety improvements allowed and go out and race at 80-90% with good sportsmanship. This puts on a good show for all doesn't unduly jeopardize the all original cars that are out on the track. As an aside, this past weekend, I issued an SCCA logbook to a 66 Spitfire Mk I that stretched the current SCCA GP rules. This car was built by a GT1 team and was every bit as sophisticated as today's GT1 and Trans Am cars. He went out and was 5 seconds faster than everything else in his race at Blackhawk. He proceeded to lap up to 3rd place with an engine that would not run below 2000 and had problems going over 6000. The car was incredible and the driver was pretty good himself to lap E & F prod cars as well as some IT and other assorted classes. THe car was definitely not vintage, as it was a state of the art mini GT1 car with absolutely impeccable workmanship. 30 years from now they will probably be making this car run in some modified class. Potent mods are still going on today Bill D. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Oddcarnut@aol.com To: S800Racer@aol.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:26:51 EDT Subject: Re: buy and race weird Paul, I fully agree with buy & race weird. Now if Randy & I could just get the 93 up to your power/weight ratio... Oh, I think drive weird on a daily basis is important too. Cheers, Ken Payne Saab 2 cycles, Mini & Morgan From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RIMEY@aol.com To: MRogers726@aol.com, owner-vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:13:12 EDT Subject: Re: Re: Visalia Vintage Auto Festival For the trivia buffs. The first road race held on the west coast was in Santa Rosa, CA, in 1909. The winning car was a Stoddard-Dayton. There were some later races, e. g. Corona, and Santa Monica, CA (the teens). The first post war sports car race (WWII) was held at Buchanan Field in 1949. This race was won by an MG driven by Bernd Qvale (Kjell's brother) From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Scarlett" To: "Gerald Brazil" , Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:22:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Parts washer solvents I've changed over to a non-toxic water based product called 'Mirachem'. This stuff is really neat and works like you wouldn't believe. Also works great in a spray bottle at the track. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Ted Rodgers" To: "vintage" Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:00:38 -0700 Subject: Free manifold Several weeks ago a member of this group generously offered a free BMW manifold, having purchased it with a set of 45 DCOE's to get the carbs, and not needing it. I was the first to respond, and he sent it for postage. It turned out not to be for a BMW, so I took it to last weekend's Pacific Northwest Historics and hung it at my pit, with a sign asking if anyone knew what it fit. After lots of opinions a guy identified it, and even brought me a picture from the manual. It's for a seemingly rare Toyota 2T-G engine, circa late 60's, early 70's. It's a DOHC engine using 2 Solex 40PHH-3 carbs. I'll make the same offer. Anyone needing it can have it free plus shipping costs. Preference given to someone using it on a race car. Ted Rodgers Mercer Island, WA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Christopher H. Kang, MD" To: MRogers726@aol.com Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:48:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Visalia Vintage Auto Festival MRogers726@aol.com wrote: > Was this one of the early road racing tracks? no, the original apparently went through the farm fields and downtown. We're talking prime farm land when it first ran, dirt roads of course. chk From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Rick Cook" To: "race list" Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:25:48 -0400 Subject: Lotus seven muffler Does anyone know sorce for an original style muffler/exhaust pipe for lotus super seven? Mine had 4 into 1 collector and muffler in pipe. The bracket broke at Blackhawk and it was run over by several cars. Hopefully going to Shannonville tomorrow so a Canadian source would be OK. Rick Cook DeWitt, MI From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: ferguss@philly.infi.net To: Rick Cook Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:59:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Lotus seven muffler Rick On a trip to England in May, I purchased an "original silencer" for my Series II Super Seven from Redline Components LTD in Caterham Surrey (around the corner from the Caterham shop). Price was 124 GP. Redlines Phone # 01883 346515. FAX # 01883 341604 I understand Caterham transfered most of the parts for the Lotus Sevens to Redline earlier this year. Looking around their shop they seem to have most of the pieces for the older cars available. And they are set up to ship overseas. This may be a faster and cheaper source than ordering from a Caterham dealer. Jeremy Fergusson Rick Cook wrote: > > Does anyone know sorce for an original style muffler/exhaust pipe for lotus > super seven? Mine had 4 into 1 collector and muffler in pipe. The bracket > broke at Blackhawk and it was run over by several cars. Hopefully going to > Shannonville tomorrow so a Canadian source would be OK. > Rick Cook > DeWitt, MI From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Edwin Smith" To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: 08 Jul 98 08:30:11 -0700 Subject: Race Weird and smoke 'em out Why not!!!! 1959 Elva 100 DKW FJr......... Ted Smith From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike & Jaye Rosen To: Edwin Smith Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 12:08:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Race Weird and smoke 'em out Edwin Smith wrote: > > Why not!!!! 1959 Elva 100 DKW FJr......... > > Ted Smith PERFECTO!!!! Mike From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:09:27 -0400 Subject: Waterford Hills Does anyone have the number to call to enter the Waterford Hills event at the end of the month? Brian From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Alexander Joseph H To: "'Amici Triumphi'" , Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:53:54 -0500 Subject: Crew Pass-BRIC Hello BRIC Entrants, I am in search of an unused crew pass for a guest from England. Can anyone help me out? Thanks, Joe From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Scarlett" To: "Brian Evans" , Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:56:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Waterford Hills Try TMG Sports Marketing 248.650.5566 or Dave Hinman 313.248.1658 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: "Scarlett" Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:11:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Waterford Hills Got it now, thanks everyone! Brian At 09:56 AM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >Try TMG Sports Marketing 248.650.5566 >or Dave Hinman 313.248.1658 > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:26:10 EDT Subject: Watkins Glen Press Release SVRA to honor Pre - WW II race cars at the 50th anniversary of racing at Watkins Glen in September. In addition to a full slate of vintage and historic races during the Zippo United States Vintage Grand Prix at the Watkins Glen International race track, the SVRA will have a Pre-War race group with a race on Saturday and Sunday. Hanover, NH; July 8, 1998: All pre-war race car drivers and car owners are invited to this historic event. In addition to the Watkins Glen festival activities in town and on the original race circuit, the SVRA will have a special race group for pre-war cars. · Two pre-war races (one Saturday & one Sunday. · Two 30 minute practice sessions on Friday. · VSCCA Driver qualifications and tech standards will be accepted. · Separate paddock area. · Appropriate classes with suitable awards. · Special reduced entry fee of $175 and no late filing fee. · SVRA membership not required. · Participation memorabilia. Other related special events. · 40th. Anniversary Formula Junior celebration. · Stirling Moss, John Fitch and other racing legends. · Collier Cup for MG’s. · Can-Am Reunion. · Allard Reunion. · Controlled lapping of the original street circuit. · Concours. Information on entering the events and accommodations, etc. should go to Susan Wright. SVRA, 1 Maple Street, Hanover, NH 03755 tel: 603-640-6161 fax: 603-640-6130 Questions about eligibility should be directed to Jack Woehrle. Technical Director tel & fax: 803-783-6906 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: PaceCars@aol.com To: EHSMITH@us.oracle.com, owner-vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:31:57 EDT Subject: Re: Race Weird and smoke 'em out I'm doing my part! Harold Pace 1972 Mallock U2 Mk.11b former owner 1960 Bocar XP-5 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Mapes, Glenn" To: "'vintage-race'" Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:33:12 -0600 Subject: FW: Steel Crank for MGA 1622 -Reply Sorry to bomb the list with this but I lost the person's e-mail address. This individual kept blowing the engine on his race MGA and wanted to know if billit cranks were available. Glenn Mapes > -----Original Message----- > From: STAN EDWARDS [SMTP:SFH#c#SFH.ARVADA#c#PPEPASE@mail.rkd.snds.com] > Sent: Friday, July 10, 1998 7:28 AM > To: gmapes@ball.com > Subject: FW: Steel Crank for MGA 1622 -Reply > > Glenn, Tell him that Brown & Gammons in England does Billet cranks > for > all versions of MGA. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: gmapes@ball.com Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:03:27 EDT Subject: Re: FW: Steel Crank for MGA 1622 -Reply Glenn, The e-mail address you want is: (malcox@napanet.net). Malcom Cox is a member of our group (CSRG) and I'm sure that he would love to hear from you if you have info on steel cranks. Rod Schweiger From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Cheryl Barnes To: Alexander Joseph H Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:09:02 -0500 Subject: BRIC drivers - media riders I am working with the media and would like to offer any in attendance an opportunity to ride around Road America in a race car, probably during touring. If you'll e at BRIC and would be willing to give a reporter or photographer a ride, please send me an e-mail or give me a call. Please include your name and kind of car. My guess is you would explain the line, where you brake, how fast you get going and a little information about you and your car. Many thanks. Cheryl Barnes Vintage Vee #94 920.498.1769 Office 920.749.0112 Home From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:26:14 -0400 Subject: Data Logging What feedback/advice have listers got to share on simple data logging? What are the more interesting data to play with? Before anyone complains that such electronic modernity is not "vintage" let me just ask how many still use clockwork stop watches Thx Derek From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jaral48462@aol.com To: majordomo@Autox.Team.Net, healeys-digest@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:30:40 EDT Subject: Conclave 98 / DMH Grille Badge For those of you that have purchased the Conclave 98 / DMH Grille Badge, the good news is that they have been received and are in the mail to you. The bad news is that it took much longer than we anticipated to receive them. For that I apoligize. We are very satisfied with the way they turned out. You will all have them to display on your car for the Summer events and especially at Conclave 98. You beat the others that waited to get them at Regalia at Boyne Falls. Will be looking for them on your cars as I travel around the country. While I have your eyes, why not switch over to the Austin Healey Neon Raffle Site and order your raffle tickets. We have that item in stock and can assure you that it will be shipped as promised to the lucky winner this fall. The location of the Site is: http://members.aol.com/jaral48462/AHNeon.html or click on this hyperlink: AUSTIN HEALEY NEON Thanks for your Badge orders and enjoy your summer of Happy Healeying Ron Mitchell Web Master, Conclave 98 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:14:18 EDT Subject: Fuel Safe Pro Cell in MGB Hello List, I'm posting this question to the list because I'm sure someone out there can give me the proper input. I am planning to install a Fuel Safe 8 gallon Pro Cell in my 1964 MGB vintage racer. The first question is aluminum or steel? Is steel safer? Is the weight savings with aluminum worth it? Second: If I bolt the cell to the bottom of the trunk floor (where the stock tank is) and just cut an opening in the trunk floor for the filler plate, it seems that the cell will hang down very low, perhaps dangerously so. I know that low is good because it gets the weight down low, but the car is already lowered around 2" from stock (combination of suspension and 60 series tires) and I fear that I may be hitting the cell on driveways etc. I figure I can cut out an opening in the trunk floor so that the entire fuel cell can slide in from the top. I can then make brackets that will allow the cell to be mostly below the trunk floor and some above it. I would welcome any input from MGB owners who have "been there and done this" Many thanks, Rod Schweiger So. San Francisco From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:33:55 EDT Subject: An example of the philosophy of WIERD=FUN After reading the commentary on this list I received this on another--I agree with it. Michael* >Hi fellow listers, > >last weekend my wife and yours truely took our Reliant Robin out for a rallye >in Germany for the first time. Besides having won in our class the most >impressive experience was watching the people. After the rallye had finished >we parked between a 1967 Corvette and a Peugeot 403 convertible ( just like >Lt. Colombo drives on TV). Believe it or not, not the Corvette nor the >Peugeot nor other beautiful cars were the eye-catchers. People crowded around >our tiny vehicle, because they had never before seen a three-wheeler like >this. Thus I had to answer a lot of questions what gave me a lot of fun and >satisfaction. When we finally received the cup, there was nobody envying us. >Even the Jaguar drivers applauded! > > >1925 Peugeot 172 >1938 Rover 12 >1954 Morris Minor >1961 Porsche Farm Tractor >1971 Opel GT >1977 Reliant Robin > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: schonny@idt.net Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:56:49 EDT Subject: Re: Fuel Safe Pro Cell in MGB In a message dated 98-07-11 14:06:04 EDT, you write: << Hi Rod, I don't have any help for you as I have a 67 B that I am getting ready to vintage race, myself but I would like to ask you some questions. What kind of windshield do you run, if any? What kind of roll cage, did you build it or buy it already done? Any engine mods? I am kind of new at this and will certainly appreciate it if you are able to answer any of these questions. Are you putting in a fuel cell because your original tank is bad or what? Cheers Schonny >> Schonny, Here are some answers to your questions: I run the stock windshield because I also run a factory MGB fiberglass hardtop. The car is a LeMans/Sebring look alile... red body with white top, valance and 2' white circles on the doors, bonnet and boot lid. I am using the rollbar that came with the car (not SCCA approved) because it was the only type that I can use with the hardtop. I did modify the bar some. I welded in a diagonal strut, a head rest and a chrome moly tube brace that runs from the center of the bar to the floor in the passenger footwell. This brace is removal ( two 1/2" grade eight bolts. I suspect the tube brace stiffens up the car a little and it looks sooooo cool. Everything on the bar is padded of course for safety and that makes it look huskyer (sp) too. The engine is the one that came with the car: Three main 1800 MGB. My plan was to use this engine one year and then build a new pumped up 5 main and keep this one for a spare. (Spare engine and gearbox is a good idea incase you lunch your mill in the middle of the season and don't have time to repair it.) Well, I had to put a new crankshaft in the 3 main in the middle of the first race season so am using it again for the 2nd. Next year: new pumped 5 main. The three main has a Webber side draft and a header and a street cam. I built a close ratio gearbox using MGA close raito gears that I found at a swap meet for $80. The close ratio really lets me stay in the engine's torque band which is 5000 to 6000 RPMs. I run a 4.30 rear end (also MGA) and Comp TA 185/60 R1 racing tires on knock off Minilites. The car is not terribily fast, but I'm learning alot and I'm watching my lap times fall. This is a very presentable MGB but is a real low buck racing project. I got the car for free, it was a real basket case and found most of what I needed at the swap meets. The plan was to get the car on the track and see how I liked vintage racing. Well I found that vintage racing (at least with my group, CSRG) really fulfill a need in my life and I want to stay with it. This year I upgraded to a more expensive (and safer) closed face helmet, and am going to install a fuel cell and inbuilt fire system in the interests of safety. This winter I'll build a new 5 main engine and I plan to take a driving class at Russell Racing at Sears Point next spring. If you are interested, I could tell you what I did to the suspension and brakes. Feeling long winded today, Rod Schwieger So. San Francisco From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Ccanepa50@aol.com To: gchateauvieux@macromedia.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:02:17 EDT Subject: free healey and sprite parts, MGA gerard, foward to A-H list please I'm cleaning out my shop........everything listed must go this week, all parts must be picked up in San Francisco, come and get them or they will get gone......most things free, some things will be sold for very little(a case of Bud goes a long way) first to take 'em gets 'em......- AN5 -AN9 parts an9 convertible top frame-perfect condition bugeye side curtains-2 pr - good frames 1100 cc engine-was running, head off 1275 thin flange eng-rocker arm off 1275 block, thick flange w sleeves 948 blocks , 3 blocks, 3 heads 948 eng complete less crank, w/downdraft carb/manifold, was running mk2 trunk lid mk2 doors, l-repaired but straight, r-straight mk2 hood(bonnet) needs minor nose repair mk1-2 front axels, hubs and drums(drum brake setup) mk1-4 fuel tanks (2) mk1-4 bolt in roll bar(fits under top) used 948 cosworth race pistons, flat top, probably .030 BJ8 Healey 3000 mk3 parts complete exhaust system (from flex conn back) good cond w/brackets used orig rear leaf springs orig front shocks(1 pr) for rebuild 72 spoke wire wheels, set of 4, used 3000 engine, no rocker assbly, from a wrecked car, not run since 1970 or earlier. MGA parts car, '59, orig 1500 car, has 1622 eng, 2 trannys(one shot), mostly all disassembled, was racer in the 60's, has sat since then, rust free chassis and sheet metal, fenders were flared but not well, welded in roll bar, all offers considered chuck canepa From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bruce Thompson To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:59:08 +1200 Subject: Brakes Hello, I,ve been lurking in the background of the race list for a while, and would appreciate some feed-back on my brake system. I have a '69 Firebird Trans Am race car with the JL-8 4 wheel disc brakes. Presently there are 2 master cylinders in front of a balance bar and each is .75" (3/4") From here each line passes through a booster, with the line to the rear going through a KH bias valve. I've never been a fan of rock hard pedals, I believe I can modulate a medium feel pedal more accurately. ( personal preference ) I am by no means an engineer, hydraulic, or otherwise, and the books I've read suggests this should work. The orig Vettes with these size brakes had 1" or 1 1/8" mast/cyl depending on if they were boosted or not. If any of you have any experience, comments or suggestion's I would greatly appreciate your in-put. Thanks, in anticipation. Bruce Thompson. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Ccanepa50@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:20:06 EDT Subject: 5.0/ T-5 for sale cheap I have a running street 5.0 ford eng w/2bbl carb from a autom c-6 tranny truck, pro rebuild about 25000 mi ago. c-6 auto box, and a T-5 gearbox that needs rebuild, t-5 alum bell housing, $450+- takes it all chuck.............. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: FG99@aol.com To: bandst@xtra.co.nz Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:36:47 EDT Subject: Re: Brakes Bruce, My 69 Camaro had modified JL-8 set up..calipers replaced with J-56's. Master cylinder used was a split master from a Ford Pick-up truck from 1969 vintage. Booster was stock Camaro. Vette (KH) proportionaing valve was used. Car ran that way all it's life w/no problems. Fred Greco, Bruce Behrens/Vince Gimondo T/A Camaro From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "R. Harrington" To: "Vintage Race Web" Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:44:36 -0400 Subject: Mark Palmer Does anyone on the list have an email address for Mark Palmer, Editor of the MG Vintage Racer Magazine? Thanks Bob H From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Doug Wilson To: Bruce Thompson Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Brakes You are on the correct path. Go to a larger cylinder to increase the modulation. This decreases the pressure. It is not necessary for both masters to be the same size, but it is probably a good place to start. Doug Wilson On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Bruce Thompson wrote: > Hello, > > I,ve been lurking in the background of the race list for a > while, and would appreciate some feed-back on my brake > system. > I have a '69 Firebird Trans Am race car with the JL-8 4 > wheel disc > brakes. Presently there are 2 master cylinders in front of a > balance bar > and each is .75" (3/4") From here each line passes through a > booster, > with the line to the rear going through a KH bias valve. > I've never been a fan of rock hard pedals, I believe I can > modulate > a medium feel pedal more accurately. ( personal preference ) > I am by no means an engineer, hydraulic, or otherwise, and > the books I've read suggests this should work. > The orig Vettes with these size brakes had 1" or 1 1/8" > mast/cyl depending on if they were boosted or not. > If any of you have any experience, comments or suggestion's > I would greatly appreciate your in-put. > > Thanks, in anticipation. > > Bruce Thompson. > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: Doug Wilson Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:55:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Brakes I've been following this thread, and while I don't know much about Trans Am brakes in specific, I've just been through some M/C size issues on my car. A smaller M/C bore size gives softer brake feel, at the expense of greater pedal travel. Larger sizes give a harder feel, with less travel (the proverbial rock hard pedal if you go too far). The effect at the caliper end is the inverse, since what you're doing is playing with bore ratios. The smaller cylinder can create higher line pressures than the larger one, since it has a smaller surface area to generate the pressure. But it has to move farther to displace the fluid required to actually move the slave cylinders. You can get the same effect by changing the pedal ratio - more leverage equals higher pressures and longer movement for a given amount of force. Keep in mind also that twin M/C divide the pedal force, while tandem (dual in-line) M/C give all the force to both chambers of the dual M/C. This is where the whole thing gets too complicated for me and I get the books out! Brian At 11:58 AM 7/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >You are on the correct path. Go to a larger cylinder to increase the >modulation. This decreases the pressure. It is not necessary for both >masters to be the same size, but it is probably a good place to start. >Doug Wilson > >On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Bruce Thompson wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I,ve been lurking in the background of the race list for a >> while, and would appreciate some feed-back on my brake >> system. >> I have a '69 Firebird Trans Am race car with the JL-8 4 >> wheel disc >> brakes. Presently there are 2 master cylinders in front of a >> balance bar >> and each is .75" (3/4") From here each line passes through a >> booster, >> with the line to the rear going through a KH bias valve. >> I've never been a fan of rock hard pedals, I believe I can >> modulate >> a medium feel pedal more accurately. ( personal preference ) >> I am by no means an engineer, hydraulic, or otherwise, and >> the books I've read suggests this should work. >> The orig Vettes with these size brakes had 1" or 1 1/8" >> mast/cyl depending on if they were boosted or not. >> If any of you have any experience, comments or suggestion's >> I would greatly appreciate your in-put. >> >> Thanks, in anticipation. >> >> Bruce Thompson. >> > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "R. Harrington" To: "Vintage Race Web" Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:04:57 -0400 Subject: Mark Palmer Thanks to all who responded. I now have Mark's address Bob H. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: rharring@idirect.com Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:05:09 EDT Subject: Re: Mark Palmer In a message dated 98-07-13 12:03:40 EDT, you write: << Does anyone on the list have an email address for Mark Palmer, Editor of the MG Vintage Racer Magazine? Thanks Bob H >> Bob, The e-mail address for Mark Palmer is: mpalmer@philagear.com Regards, Rod Schweiger From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: AnalogMike@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:31:28 EDT Subject: Which vintage club to join? Hi, I live in CT and race a '73 Porsche Carrera RS lightweight replica (exact specs). I guess it could also be considered a "continuation car" of the Carrera RSs which were mostly built in late '72 for homologation if that would help. I have a PCA club racing license (don't laugh we have more track experience and much more instruction before getting licensed than most SCCA regional rookies). I would like to enter some vintage events and have checked out the web sites, looks like if I join any group I can enter the others' events. Should I join HSRA, SVRA, or ??? Any advantages? Regards, mike piera AnalogMike@aol.com '72 911S Targa, '73 911RS Replica ~^v^~ aNaLoG.MaN ~^v^~ vintage guitars http://members.aol.com/AnalogMike/stock.htm From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Wood, Barry" To: "'vintage-race@autox.team.net'" Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:39:05 -0600 Subject: Stanguellini I have been trying to get some info on the pricing of a 1959/60 Stanguellini Formula Jr. I have written to Jack McWilliams of the Stanguellini Register but have never heard back. Does anyone have any pricing info that would help me make a purchasing decision on a car? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Barry Barry Wood Lockheed Martin Vought Systems Dallas, TX. 75265-0003 M/S: MC29 972-603-1479 barry.wood@lmvs.com From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Steve Hammatt" To: "Vintage Race Car Group" Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:22:13 -0700 Subject: What's a Registry? Hi I've never been a member of a car registry but with a recent purchase of a 1930/40s Sprint Car with a HAL DOHC engine, I feel that maybe that will change! I'm quite sure that there is no focal point of interest for these old DO engines and maybe I should consider starting one. However, I don't really know what is involved nor expected. Anybody have ideas on where to go for information? Thanks. Steve Hammatt From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bob Williams To: Derek Harling Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Data Logging On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Derek Harling wrote: > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:26:14 -0400 > From: Derek Harling > To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net > Subject: Data Logging > > What feedback/advice have listers got to share on simple data logging? > > What are the more interesting data to play with? > > Before anyone complains that such electronic modernity is not "vintage" > let me just ask how many still use clockwork stop watches > > Thx Derek > IBEX Bob does! Owner of several jeweled movement Stop watches you could set the electronic ones with to check their accurate time keeping. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bruce Thompson To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:10:10 +1200 Subject: Re:brakes Gentlemen, Thanks for the replies on the brake system. With so many variables in the system, from pedal ratio,m/cyl size, boosters etc, I think I have an acceptable starting point from which to launch into/onto the track, and start development work. A previous track drive in the brother in laws 65 Mustang put the wind up me. It had possably the worst brakes i'd ever encountered. The fact that it had two bias valves (both wrongly set) didn't help. Thanks again, and wish me luck.... Bruce Thompson '69 Trans Am Firebird From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: midget@peganet.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Missing Half Shaft T-540 I have a 1978 LOLA T540 and am missing the right side half shaft (Lola Part # A580-4106). I have identified the CV joints and have a source for them. Can anyone help me with a part # and/or source for the intermediate axle shaft. Thanks Dick Lohr midget@peganet.com From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Rod Farnsworth To: "'vintage-race@autox.team.net'" Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:36:38 -0600 Subject: Announcement CVRC WEB pages Please excuse the blast. Anything additional in Vintage motor sport should be worth publishing I hope. Anyhow The Calgary Vintage Racing Club has web pages at http://www.cvrc.calgary.ab.ca/. We are hoping for a good turn out to the August 22-23 weekend (Vintage on the Prairies) From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: Bob Williams Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:38:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging Bob Williams wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Derek Harling wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:26:14 -0400 > > From: Derek Harling > > To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net > > Subject: Data Logging > > > > What feedback/advice have listers got to share on simple data logging? > > > > What are the more interesting data to play with? > > > > Before anyone complains that such electronic modernity is not "vintage" > > let me just ask how many still use clockwork stop watches > > > > Thx Derek > > > IBEX Bob does! Owner of several jeweled movement Stop watches you could > set the electronic ones with to check their accurate time keeping. Hi Bob I was actually talking about normal people. But since three people have replied claiming to use "jewelled movement" (much nicer than my phrase "clockwork") stop watches and NOT ONE has replied with any info about data logging - maybe you are the normal one and I'm the odd one. So let me try again - 1 - how many use "jewelled movement" stop watches? 2 - how many use electronic stop watches? 3 - does anyone use data logging for such things as rpm, wheel speed, lateral G, longitudinal G, throttle position, oil press, temps etc etc [just for fun of course]. Derek From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: midget@peganet.com Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:52:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Missing Half Shaft T-540 Dick Recommend you try Chris Fox of Fox Motorsports in the UK. Tel = 011 44 1487 832474 Fax = 011 44 1487 832482. Derek midget@peganet.com wrote: > > I have a 1978 LOLA T540 and am missing the right side half shaft (Lola Part # A580-4106). I have identified the CV joints and have a source for them. > > Can anyone help me with a part # and/or source for the intermediate axle shaft. > > Thanks Dick Lohr midget@peganet.com From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Dick R." To: Vintage Racing Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:28:46 -0400 Subject: Historic 1977 Porsche for Sale Hi all - An "internet impaired" buddy has asked me to post this car for sale - Ran Daytona 24 hrs. in 1984 - 8th in GTO; Sebring 12 hr. - 5th in GTO; Glen 6 hr. - 4th in GTO; 3 MARRS championships - much more history. Car has 3.3 litre engine. - RSR body w/ correct wing - Locked 915-5 speed trans (long 2nd) - 12.5 to 1 pistons - Dual Plug ignition (real RSR dist.) - 12x16 & 10x16 Centerline Whls. plus 4 ATS mags w/rains mounted. - 33 gal fuel cell - on board fire syst. Always professionally maintained. Delivery avail. This car is guaranteed ready to run in 1998. Asking $36,000. For Info and faxed pictures, etc. contact: GT Performance / Ted Hulse Racing 410/538-3400 Baltimore, Maryland Eves. 410/866-4530 Regards, Dick Rothman '65 Turner Mk III '71 Royale RP 6/17 Sports Racer From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: David Laver To: Derek Harling Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:39:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Data Logging > So let me try again - > 1 - how many use "jewelled movement" stop watches? > 2 - how many use electronic stop watches? > 3 - does anyone use data logging for such things as > rpm, wheel speed, lateral G, longitudinal G, > throttle position, oil press, temps etc etc > [just for fun of course]. > Derek Derek, Why not some mechanical arrangement to trace lines on a wax roll ? Shouldn't take long to fabricate :) I wonder what the pre-war Mercedes team used to use... How about taking cine film of a well stocked dash? A calibrated beaker of viscous liquid attached to the dash top to sense G. A dial indicator for throttle position on a bowden cable. A system of mirrors to see how far the SU pistons have risen and a peak at the colour tune. A battery of manometers for induction vacuume and key pressure points on the body. A weather vane to sense slip angle. Lights for each gear. What else did you want? We must collectively be able to save you from strapping a black box full of trouble and a plate of spaggetti to your machine. I've also copied the pre-war list as there was a thread a while back on this topic. They have an easier time of it as they can always have a boy ride on the running board with a stop watch and note book peeking at the workings. The same technique is also useful for full power adjustments. David From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bob Williams To: Derek Harling Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Data Logging Derek, Yes, on any given SVRA weekend there are probably 3 to 5 cars come through the tech. line with data logging equipment very visible, & several other cars with data ports built into the body works so a computer hook up can be made after a session. Hang out a tech at the Glen on Thur. & some- one should be able to answer your questions as they go by. IBEX(Jeweled movement) Bob Williams............. Good Luck but remember the information age was not designed around Vintage RACE Cars, or for them. I agree that no one wants to go to the moon in a Vintage Rocket, but what is the point of nine data points just to tell you your not a 25 year old driver in a new car! Cheers............... From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: DWhitesdJr@aol.com To: dlaver@ms.com, derek.lola@sympatico.ca Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:40:31 EDT Subject: Re: Data Logging This string reminded me of a photo from Autosport 1954. Colin Chapman of Lotus is working on the aerodynamics of his new sportsracer, the Mark VIII. To test their theories, they strapped Frank Costin (later to found Cosworth with his partner Keith Duckworth) to the bonnet of the car and drove up and down an airport runway at 100 MPH while Costin observed the airflow over cotton tuffs he had glued to strategic spots on the Mark VIII body. Data logging -- we've come a long way baby. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: David Laver To: DWhitesdJr@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:01:59 +0100 Subject: Re: Data Logging It was Mike Costin's brother, Frank Costin. Frank not only had tufts but also manometers to measure pressure. He calculated body profiles in the same way that computer simulations work today, but all by hand. Frank did the body for the Vanwall F1 and Lotus 8, 9, and 10. He also did the plywood chassis for the Marcos. David DWhitesdJr@aol.com wrote: > This string reminded me of a photo from Autosport 1954. Colin Chapman of > Lotus is working on the aerodynamics of his new sportsracer, the Mark VIII. > To test their theories, they strapped Frank Costin (later to found Cosworth > with his partner Keith Duckworth) to the bonnet of the car and drove up and > down an airport runway at 100 MPH while Costin observed the airflow over > cotton tuffs he had glued to strategic spots on the Mark VIII body. > > Data logging -- we've come a long way baby. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Jack W. Drews" To: vintage race list Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:05:30 -0500 Subject: Data Logging Please forgive lack of earlier response. Here's what we use: 1. Calendar with birthdays marked -- now working towards #62 2. Wear markers in tire tread -- when you can see them you know that the tires are good for only three more races 3. Wear markers on tires -- when you can see them all the way around you know you're not breaking hard enough -- no flat spots 4. Tire pressures -- constant attempt to correlate pressures and handling, measured in units of weight of fat pig 5. Color of inside of exhaust pipe -- bare metal means new pipe, some kind of color means engine has been running, rust color means new pipe needed 6. Liquid levels in various cavities indicating which seals have failed vs. which ones are leaking normally 7. Exhaust Gas Temp -- why did I buy this thing anyway if all it tells me is late timing puts hotter gas in the exhaust header? 8. Oil temp -- always off gage, evidence that heat is being generated 9. Stopwatch that sometimes doesn't work right, coincidently always on the killer lap 10. Teletale expression on wife's face (owner of the stopwatch) varying from "My Hero" to "what did you break this time"...also expression on (co-driver) son's face which varying from "Ha! beat the old man again" to "How the heck did he do that?".... Serious data acquistion? Heck, I'm already not racing as well as I know how -- I couldn't handle more proof of how mediocre I am.... -- uncle jack TR4 Rallye Replica vintage racer From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Ted Rodgers" To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:41:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Data Logging -----Original Message----- From: Derek Harling To: Bob Williams Cc: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 8:45 PM Subject: Re: Data Logging >So let me try again - >1 - how many use "jewelled movement" stop watches? >2 - how many use electronic stop watches? >Derek To keep things in the "vintage spirit" we use a set of Heuer Rally stop watches from the 50's, mounted on the ubiquitous brown clipboard of the time. Not accurate to the hundredth, or even the 10th, but more fun, and a great conversation piece. Ted Rodgers From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:25:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging I wonder what thread I can start next! Derek From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike & Jaye Rosen To: Derek Harling Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:05:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging Derek Harling wrote: > > I wonder what thread I can start next! > > Derek How about logging - I'm partial to log rolling.... or was that drunk rolling? I'm confused. Mike From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike & Jaye Rosen To: Ted Rodgers Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:07:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging To keep things in the "vintage spirit" we use a set of Heuer Rally stop > watches from the 50's, mounted on the ubiquitous brown clipboard of the > time. Not accurate to the hundredth, or even the 10th, but more fun, and a > great conversation piece. > > Ted Rodgers I have a sundial and hourglass mounted to a slab of polished marble. It's a very old car Mike From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: lweinstein@desire.wright.edu To: Mike & Jaye Rosen Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Data Logging (Curta Calculator) Anyone using a Curta calculator for road rallies out there? I acquired one a few years ago and was surprised to learn they are the "in" thing for raod rally speed calculations! Larry Weinstein RP4 Royale From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: Mike & Jaye Rosen Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:13:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging Being of Celtic ancestry, I personally have a scale model of Stonehenge that I use to time laps based on the solar equinox. When I use it in the car it gets a bit tricky since I can only get accurate solar sightings when the car is pointing due East...and it only works at sunrise, which makes me unpopular with some less vintage-critical members of the paddock community (race engines at dawn, and all that) Actually, since we had Frank Costin (FC) and Mike Costin (MC) doing on-board data acquisition in the 1950's, what could possibly be wrong with their younger brother (PC) doing data acquisition today? Brian > >I have a sundial and hourglass mounted to a slab of polished marble. It's a >very old car > >Mike > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bill Dalton To: "Jack W. Drews" Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:19:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Data Logging Jack W. Drews wrote: > > Please forgive lack of earlier response. > > Here's what we use: > > 1. Calendar with birthdays marked -- now working towards #62 > > 2. Wear markers in tire tread -- when you can see them you know that the > tires are good for only three more races > > 3. Wear markers on tires -- when you can see them all the way around you > know you're not breaking hard enough -- no flat spots > > 4. Tire pressures -- constant attempt to correlate pressures and > handling, measured in units of weight of fat pig > > 5. Color of inside of exhaust pipe -- bare metal means new pipe, some > kind of color means engine has been running, rust color means new pipe > needed > > 6. Liquid levels in various cavities indicating which seals have failed > vs. which ones are leaking normally > > 7. Exhaust Gas Temp -- why did I buy this thing anyway if all it tells > me is late timing puts hotter gas in the exhaust header? > > 8. Oil temp -- always off gage, evidence that heat is being generated > > 9. Stopwatch that sometimes doesn't work right, coincidently always on > the killer lap > > 10. Teletale expression on wife's face (owner of the stopwatch) varying > from "My Hero" to "what did you break this time"...also expression on > (co-driver) son's face which varying from "Ha! beat the old man again" > to "How the heck did he do that?".... > > Serious data acquistion? Heck, I'm already not racing as well as I know > how -- I couldn't handle more proof of how mediocre I am.... > -- > uncle jack > TR4 Rallye Replica vintage racer Jack, The autocrosser/restorer has a similar set of items used to log data. 1. I am a few behind you, and still working, which is way behind. 2. Hell, The're good for at least another 10,000 miles, just getting down to the approximation of slicks! 3. have the flat spots. 4. On a Mustang something like 33 in front and 29 in back until you go autocrossing. 5. Never seen bare or rust. Exhaust system properly installed on Boss 302 in 1973. Only bought the car in 1987! 6. Sometimes occurs after engine rebuild and has to be tweaked but then it is not a British car. 7. EGT's worked great in Cessna Skylanes for years. Thought everybody knew late timing = hotter exhaust. Economy verrsion is spit on finger and touch exhaust at each cylinder measuring time to singe finger with stopwatch from #9. 8. If electric gage blame it on Lucas and install real oil temp gage. If real oil temp gage you are in for expense! 9. Must be a Robic with too many buttons. My solution for timing Enduros is to alway use 2 and never touch buttons on one of them after start. 10. My 4 year old Bengal cat gives me same kind of look when I go out to the shop to work on cars. You forgot #11. Always install video camera just before going out to conserve battery. This way you will get condensation in camera and it will not turn on for 40 minutes while you are out in a 20 minute session. Side benefit is that you can claim any lap time you want- having been recorded on Robic used in #9 and accidentally erased by pushing the wrong button. There will not be incriminating evidence on the video. Bad thing about it is that if you had recorded it on video, and given me the tape, I could corroborate whatever time you want by digital manipulation of the audio and video..... for a fee of course. Agree with your last statemnet entirely. I already know I am not doing as good as I believe I can do, so who needs scientific proof. See you Thursday! From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JOHN HAMILTON To: Derek Harling Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:59:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging Derek Harling wrote: > > I wonder what thread I can start next! > > Derek I hope the answer is none. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hayes To: Bob Williams Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:29:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging and vintage rockets You guys should Mark Donohue's Unfair Advantage, as he was doing crude datalogging with GM in the late 60s. And BTW, a satellite was just launched on a 30 year old rocket design. Jim (The more things change, the more they stay the same...) Bob Williams wrote: > > Derek, Yes, on any given SVRA weekend there are probably 3 to 5 cars come > through the tech. line with data logging equipment very visible, & several > other cars with data ports built into the body works so a computer hook up > can be made after a session. Hang out a tech at the Glen on Thur. & some- > one should be able to answer your questions as they go by. > IBEX(Jeweled movement) Bob Williams............. Good Luck but remember > the information age was not designed around Vintage RACE Cars, or for > them. I agree that no one wants to go to the moon in a Vintage Rocket, > but what is the point of nine data points just to tell you your not a 25 > year old driver in a new car! Cheers............... From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hayes To: Vintage Race List Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:30:09 -0400 Subject: High Technology is all relative > > 7. Exhaust Gas Temp -- why did I buy this thing anyway if all it tells > me is late timing puts hotter gas in the exhaust header? > Ever see an early Ferrari with plugs in the exhaust pipes? Ever watch a mechanic unscrew a plug & put a thermometer into the hole to see if the cylinder was firing properly? In fact ever see an early Ferrari run on 12 cylinders without this process? Jim From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: simonite@tescor.dwg.com (Simionite - Tescor Pacific Energy Services Inc.) To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:36:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Data Logging There's an excellent data logger available from Digicon Engineering in Vancouver BC, pretty reasonable price. Can be configured to log just about anything - engine info, acceleration (lateral etc), temperatures, exact colour of the red mist the driver is experiencing... Email to Doug Yip at digicon@mindlink.bc.ca. You use a graphic display on a PC to view the results. Pretty cool stuff - you can synchronize the display with your laps so you can see how you do a lap - look at accelerations to see how smooth you are, see your heel and toe technique, etc, plus see how your car is doing mechanically. Loggers are great tools for tuning up both yourself and your car. If people complain about vintage, maybe you can get the logger in a coal powered version. -Blair "64 Elan S2 in a box - just add money" From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Tony Clark" To: "Vintage Race List" Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:38:26 -0500 Subject: Re: High Technology is all relative Love stories like that . . . makes you appreciate how much toil went in to those great racing cars . . . I helped a friend with his Cooper-Norton F 3 once . . . The starting drill involved: install hot plug, prime with alcohol, turn motor back against compression, tow briskly, dump clutch, and . . . if it fired on the first spark, you were okay. If not, repeat above with dry plug. Then, warm engine, install cold plug and repeat, repeatedly! Tony ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Ever see an early Ferrari with plugs in the exhaust pipes? Ever watch a >mechanic unscrew a plug & put a thermometer into the hole to see if the >cylinder was firing properly? In fact ever see an early Ferrari run on >12 cylinders without this process? >Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'Derek Harling'" , Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:43:55 -0400 Subject: RE: Data Logging Derek, it seemed more like you PULLED a thread and the whole thing unraveled. GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Dr G W Owen To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:19:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on a book I am interested in 30s big cars. Anyone recommend or discourage the purchase of #CH450 The Illustrated History of Sprint Car Racing $69.95 by Fox ? Buying over the Atlantic so it is difficult to get a preview! Geraint Owen PS May need to come over if I decide to buy/find a car!!!!!!! From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike & Jaye Rosen To: Derek Harling Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:53:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging Derek Harling wrote: > > I wonder what thread I can start next! > > Derek I hope everyone south of the border can see that up here in Canada, we have far too much time on our hands...it still being too cold for the racing season to start. The ice pack is retreating from corner 2 at Mosport and now that it's light 24 hour a day we can plow the racing line clear. Canada...one month of summer, 11 months of ice racing Derek, how about a thread on correct broom and shovel technique at the track...it's about time! Festina Lente Mike From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Patrick Young" To: "Vintage Race List" Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:15:13 +0200 Subject: Re: High Technology is all relative -----Original Message----- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Ever see an early Ferrari with plugs in the exhaust pipes? Ever watch a >>mechanic unscrew a plug & put a thermometer into the hole to see if the >>cylinder was firing properly? In fact ever see an early Ferrari run on >>12 cylinders without this process? >>Jim >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Or indeed the old Silver Arrows data logging trick during pit stops where one man would lick his fingers and swiftly (- very swiftly - don't forget what happened to Tim Birkin) and touch all the exhaust pipes near the mainfold to nesure they were hot and therefore firing! Now, you see with all that technological jiggery pokery in F! these days, we are relieved of the site of Ron Dennis actually getting his hands dirty for once! Regards, Patrick From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'Mike & Jaye Rosen'" , Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:25:06 -0400 Subject: RE: Data Logging I agree! Broom and shovel techniques are what is needed right now! GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: mgee To: "vintage-race@autox.team.net" Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:36:33 -0700 Subject: Data Logging I respectfully nominate DATA LOGGING the thread of the year. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: mgee Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:24:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging mgee wrote: > > I respectfully nominate DATA LOGGING the thread of the year. Thx Michael Some of the best things I've done in life were unintentional. [No - I don't have any kids.] Derek From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Rick Cook" To: "Gerald Brazil" Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:22:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging Does anyone have a good product to plug a hairline crack in the water side of the intake valve runner on a 1500 cc non crossflow Ford head? Other than Barr's Leak. Looks like leak has been brazed before. RCC -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Brazil To: 'Derek Harling' ; Vintage race (E-mail) Date: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 6:58 AM Subject: RE: Data Logging >Derek, it seemed more like you PULLED a thread and the whole thing >unraveled. > >GJB > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: Rick Cook Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:14:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Data Logging Hi Rick There is [or at least used to be] a ceramic sealer which came in about 8oz plastic bottles. Can't remember its name but no doubt usual race/auto stores will know what I mean. Much better than Bars Leak. The ceramic hardened to a permanent solid. You then flushed the cooling system after 24 hrs or one track session. It saved me one race weekend years ago when Bars Leak couldn't. Derek. Rick Cook wrote: > > Does anyone have a good product to plug a hairline crack in the water side > of the intake valve runner on a 1500 cc non crossflow Ford head? Other than > Barr's Leak. Looks like leak has been brazed before. > RCC From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Tony Clark" To: "Vintage Race List" Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:16:14 -0500 Subject: Logging/crack seal (?) Rick, I'll share a hard earned trick I learned from a rebuilder - bounce the idea off an engine machine shop you trust but . . . this works: Preheat the head, weld a fat bead ACROSS the crack (stick welder, nickle rod) every inch of the crack. This stabilizes the crack and the bead-shrink pulls the crack together. Then use a sealer, the powdered aluminum type works best for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.. >Does anyone have a good product to plug a hairline crack in the water side >of the intake valve runner on a 1500 cc non crossflow Ford head? Other than >Barr's Leak. Looks like leak has been brazed before. >RCC >-----Original Message----- >From: Gerald Brazil >To: 'Derek Harling' ; Vintage race (E-mail) > >Date: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 6:58 AM >Subject: RE: Data Logging <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, > >>Derek, it seemed more like you PULLED a thread and the whole thing >>unraveled. >> >>GJB >> >> > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: alfaguy@nettally.com (David J. Anderson) To: "'Vintage Race'" Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:25:46 -0000 Subject: Mustang Modifications Is there any benefit by installing post '66 tie rods to a 65/66 Mustang. The 67 and newer tie rod assemblies are much different with 15" outer tie rods. These longer rods should lessen bump steer, plus the 5.25" long pitman and idler arms should quicken steering. Just a thought for my son's street driven car. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: "Rick Cook" Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:19:52 -0400 Subject: water leak in casting Rick, I've been told that Loctite makes an industrial product designed to seal such cracks, and seal porous castings, on a permanent basis. Go to the rec.crafts.metalworking news group and post a question there. I'm sure you'll get more than a few answers. Also, there is a Loctite website that I've been to, but don't have the URL for right now. if I find it, I'll email it to you. Cheers, Brian. BTW, we had a great time at Shannonville! At 09:22 PM 7/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone have a good product to plug a hairline crack in the water side >of the intake valve runner on a 1500 cc non crossflow Ford head? Other than >Barr's Leak. Looks like leak has been brazed before. >RCC >-----Original Message----- >From: Gerald Brazil >To: 'Derek Harling' ; Vintage race (E-mail) > >Date: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 6:58 AM >Subject: RE: Data Logging > > >>Derek, it seemed more like you PULLED a thread and the whole thing >>unraveled. >> >>GJB >> >> > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: "Rick Cook" Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:19:04 -0400 Subject: hairline crack At 09:22 PM 7/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone have a good product to plug a hairline crack in the water side >of the intake valve runner on a 1500 cc non crossflow Ford head? Other than >Barr's Leak. Looks like leak has been brazed before. > So I called Loctite, their tech support being in the Toronto area, and asked what to do about your crack. The thinking is that since the crack is in the intake side to the water jacket, it might not get too hot, so an epoxy like Loctite weld or JBweld might work. But the first thing to try is actually the wickable thread locking compound, which is Loctite 290. This stuff wicks into cracks and seals up to .005". The thing is to get the crack very clean, which may mean heating for some time with a torch to boil out all the water and oil. Then, let cool completely, and puddle the Loctite over the crack. It should wick in, so you may need to do two or three applications. This stuff cures in the absence of air, so the stuff pooled on the outside will never harden, while the stuff in the crack will. Cure time is 24 hours, and don't use a primer or heat to speed the cure, as this will reduce the wicking factor. It may be worth try, I've never used the stuff myself. Web site is: http://www.loctite.com/ Brian From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MHKitchen@aol.com To: rccook16@voyager.net, gerrybraz@voyager.net Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:40:02 EDT Subject: Re: Data Logging In a message dated 98-07-15 21:28:19 EDT, rccook16@voyager.net writes: << Does anyone have a good product to plug a hairline crack in the water side of the intake valve runner on a 1500 cc non crossflow Ford head >> FYI, I've used Alumaseal with success on various types of leaks.... Regards, Myles H. Kitchen From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: CLCSF@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:29:36 EDT Subject: Watkins Glen Zippo Race Any news on when acceptances will be going out for the Sept. Zippo Classic ? I know I'm anxious, but I've got 5 guys bugging me. Don Queen SF From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jaral48462@aol.com To: majordomo@Autox.Team.Net, healeys-digest@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:53:36 EDT Subject: Re: Conclave 98 / DMH Grille Badge In a message dated 98-07-16 09:38:14 EDT, you write: << Received the Conclave 98 grill badge today, looks great on the front of my '59 RHD 5 Speed Sprite. Cannot wait to show it off in the State of VA. I know I will not be able to attend the Conclave, but with the commemorative grill badge on my car at least I will feel like I am a part of the Healey mystique. Thanks again, Bob Magnotti Fairfax, VA>> We're glad you are happy with it. A RHD bugeye is definately part of the Healey Mystique. If you're going to Encounter 98 at Gettysburg look me up I will have the BN6 with all the badges on the front. Right in the middle will be the Commemorative Badge. I hope we ordered enough that we will be able to continue selling them after Conclave 98. If any of your friends want one have them go to the Grille Badge Site and order one. We can still accomodate a few more orders CONCLAVE 98 GRILLE BADGE Ron Mitchell Web Master Conclave 98 Update: From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "R. Harrington" To: "Vintage Race Web" Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:01:53 -0400 Subject: Watkins Glen Photos and story for HSR F1 Tribute are now posted at "hsrrace.com". Bob H From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Chad Raynal" To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:18:08 -0700 Subject: ANY Old Photos of My Car?? Hello Listers, I'm trying to find a SINGLE period picture of a car I recently purchased. The car has been verified by some well informed authorities (SVRA, Historic Trans-Am Registry), but I do not have ANY original photographs of the car when it competed in a couple 1972 SCCA Trans-Am events, and several IMSA events from 71-73. If you have no information/interest in cars of this period you may want to stop reading now.. this is fairly long. The car was raced by a Richard Sterbins originally, then a Mr. Bill MacFarlane. I would love to be able to make my car appear as it did originally through the aid of some old pictures. The car is in the correct original color, Daytona yellow, but I have no idea what decals were run or how the numbers looked. I just want to tell you up front, I sure do appreciate ANY information you may be able to provide. The car in question can best be described as: · 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 · Yellow with black stripes SCCA Trans-Am Events (driven by Richard Sterbins) Lime Rock Park, 5/6/72, Trans-Am, started 25th, finished 13th Watkins Glen, 6/17/72, Trans-Am, unknown start position, finish unknown · normally raced as #64 in SCCA events IMSA Events ("TO" Class) Daytona, 11/21/71, "TO" Class, unknown start position, finished 9th Danville, 4/16/72, "TO" Class, unknown start position, finished 2nd Lime Rock, 5/29/72, "TO" Class, unknown start position, finished 3rd Mid-Ohio, 7/9/72, "TO" Class, started 5th, finished 3rd · normally raced as #14 in IMSA events · sometimes co-driven by Richard Schiesz Mr. Sterbins was contacted during its restoration in the early nineties and he said that he had a bunch of old photos. The photos never got sent to the previous owner, and his old contact information seems to be invalid. Mr. Sterbins is an ATF agent, so that may complicate getting in touch with him. The car was then driven from 1973 to 1975 by a Mr. William MacFarlane. I don’t know if the car was changed color from it’s original yellow for Mr. MacFarlane’s first two IMSA races listed below, but it was white by the SCCA races in 1974. I don’t know the number Mr. MacFarlane ran under. The events and dates during MacFarlane are a little less precise, but I’ll give you what I have. I was able to contact Mr. MacFarlane, and he may some old pictures, but I haven't received any as of yet. MacFarlane's Events Lime Rock (IMSA), 73, unknown start and finish position Mid Ohio (IMSA) 73, unknown start, DNF Summit Point (SCCA), 7/74, A/S, unknown start and finish position Summit Point (SCCA), 74, A/S, unknown start and finish position Summit Point (SCCA), 4/19/75, A/S, unknown start and finish position Summit Point (SCCA), 9/20/75, A/S, unknown start and finish position Any and all additional information would be greatly appreciated. Any payment for photos, photocopies, postage or research time will be understood. A CURRENT set of pictures representing the car can be found at: http://members.xoom.com/oldracecars/images/69z28.gif Thank you, Chad Raynal From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: mactds@idirect.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:28:08 -0400 Subject: Sealing Cracks Hi Listers! Brian & I have been listening to your thread on casting repairs and we have found a better solution than what has already been offered. There's a product called "Seal-All" made by Seal Lock International. This works on cast iron & aluminum heads and blocks. It will impregnate the casting sealing fine cracks, pin holes and porosity problems. It is very expensive - but it does work! To purchase in the States call: Silver Seal Products 800-521-2936 Good Luck! Maura & Brian From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Cheryl Barnes To: Alexander Joseph H , Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:39:46 -0500 Subject: Re: BRIC drivers - media riders Thanks everyone for responding with information on your Vees, drivers, crews, visitors and offers to take the media for rides. I gave the information to Roger Jaynes, pr guy for Road America, put touring passes at the VSCDA tent, gave the announcers the info on the FVees and went to Veeland. Hope everyone had a great weekend. Cheryl Barnes Vintage Vee #94 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "Vintage race (E-mail)" Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:58:49 -0400 Subject: Help! I got one of those Izuzu starters for my 1275 Sprite. Checked everything while on the stand and it was good. However, when the engine is in the car the starter cannot be installed because the nose piece hits the edge of the passenger side footwell. Does anybody have a solution? GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: gerrybraz@voyager.net Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:24:37 EDT Subject: Re: Help! In a message dated 98-07-20 20:10:40 EDT, you write: << I got one of those Izuzu starters for my 1275 Sprite. Checked everything while on the stand and it was good. However, when the engine is in the car the starter cannot be installed because the nose piece hits the edge of the passenger side footwell. Does anybody have a solution? GJB >> Gerry, Take a large ball pean hammer to the footwell until it will fit. Cheers, Rod Schweiger From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: FG99@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:52:11 EDT Subject: Chevrolet Parts Was wondering if anyone out there can help locate the following parts. for 63-82 Corvette: 1. Doug Thorley small block headers (with side exhaust). 2. OK Kustom small block headers (with side exhaust). These were available from Chevrolet Parts Dept. 3. Koni double adjustables, fronts and rears. 4. 69 L88 Radiator for 1969 Camaro: 1. Sheet metal Cowl Induction hood for crossram. 2. Factory fiberglass hood for crossram. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bruce Thompson To: FG99@aol.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:55:45 +1200 Subject: Re: Chevrolet Parts Fred, Classic Industries in CA have the orig '69 cowl induction hood part# G6789 $580.00 approx ,repro #CM1301 $240.00 approx and f'glass part # K683 $450.00 approx. You can find them at http://classicindustries.com/main.htm. Regards Bruce From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Oddcarnut@aol.com To: lweinstein@desire.wright.edu, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:53:27 EDT Subject: Re: Data Logging (Curta Calculator) I'd use a Curta if I had one. It would go well with a Halda Speedpilot. Cheers, Ken Payne From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: VEENET@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:05:57 EDT Subject: 2 Cars for sale Vintage Formula Vee for sale......1967 Crusader "wedge"....Turn key car.All dialed in. Good runing and good handling car. Clean, with trailer..$7500.... Also 1966 MGB Sebring replica...All the correct bits..Done right.Very low time on it. Virtually new.Excellent condition...$16,500. Spec sheet available Both cars belong to friends with out access to this list. Contact me. Jerry Burr From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "Vintage race (E-mail)" Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:21:33 -0400 Subject: Thanks for all the help Thanks to all of you people who suggested the REALLY BIG hammer. It is reassuring to know the kind of talent that is out there. I have spent the whole morning in research and have more to report than most of you every wanted to know about the subject. So, if you have no interest in putting a Nippondenso starter in a Sprite, hit the delete key. The PN for a remanufactured starter that has the proper size flange, proper # of teeth (9) and is Clockwise Rotating is # 16878. The problem is that this # supercedes # 17155, which is the one you really want because it has a smaller motor body. The # 17155 was used on the 4 cyl Izuzu Trooper and Izuzu Pup from mid to later 80's. This is a 1.0KW starter. The # 16878 was used on Izuzu products from late 80's to present. It is 1.2KW. Since either of these will fit in the Izuzu applications, the rebuilders treat rebuilt # 17155's like # 16878, so you don't know until you open the box which frame you have. The frame for the # 16878 is S1101. The frame for the # 17155 is S1105. I'll try to describe the difference so that you can identify the two different units. The motor section of the # 16878 is slightly larger and the nose section of the motor part where the front bearing is carried is the shape of a very flat cone. The ears where the bolts holding the motor to the frame are nearly flat. By contrast the # 17155, which you want, has a smaller motor. The ears for the bolts holding the motor to the frame are tapered thinner at the ends and the most visible difference is the nose piece where the shaft of the motor comes into its bearing in the housing. This is shaped like a nipple. It is about 3/8" high and 3/8" diameter. It has a depression in the middle. I have found an fellow by the name of Hamid who sells used parts off of his front porch and claims he can get me one in a few days. Guess I won't ask too many questions. I'll still keep that REALLY BIG hammer at the ready. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Mapes, Glenn" To: "'vintage-race'" Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:29:13 -0600 Subject: Izuzu starter OK - what is the advantage Izuzu starter for a 1275 vs the lucas unit? Is it weight, price or what? Thanks Glenn Mapes From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: gmapes@ball.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:06:06 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-21 16:46:18 EDT, gmapes@ball.com writes: << OK - what is the advantage Izuzu starter for a 1275 vs the lucas unit? Is it weight, price or what? Thanks Glenn Mapes >> Obviously you haven't had a lot of experience with Lucas components. Jack Woehrle From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: f1@ix.netcom.com To: "'vintage-race'" Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:09:18 -0400 Subject: Vintage Racer needs British GP Help!!!! I've been out of town for the last two weeks HSR The Glen and VSCDA Road America. When I returned home I found out that my VCR timer failed to tape the British GP. I am in dire straights. I would be indebited to anyone who could loan me a copy of the race. There's a Scuderia Savore T-Shirt in it for the trouble. thanks, Scott Scuderia Savore Racing 62 Jaguar E-Type OTS From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:21:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Izuzu starter JWoesvra@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-07-21 16:46:18 EDT, gmapes@ball.com writes: > > << OK - what is the advantage Izuzu starter for a 1275 vs the lucas unit? > Is it weight, price or what? > Thanks > Glenn Mapes >> > > Obviously you haven't had a lot of experience with Lucas components. > > Jack Woehrle Jack I have always respected your ability and opinions -so you are probably right about Lucas components - but I have to say that I have NEVER been let down by Lucas - yet. This has included - many years of normal street driving in the UK - two years in the US including two Michigan winters and three trips across the continent - three years of special stage rallying forests, rivers, dust etc) in the UK and Europe - seven years of vintage racing the Mini (hell you built it for me including the Lucas starter!) - five years with a Lola FF. All the above with Lucas starters, ignition and switch gear. Then I followed conventional wisdom and used a Japanese starter on my Atlantic. Now I always carry 2-3 spares and check the starter immediately after each track session [less frustrating that way than finding out immediately before the next session is due to start]. Anybody out there want tu suggest I revert to the Lucas unit? Final note - this may be a dangerous confession - my very first job was in the Lucas switchgear factory in the north of England!!!! Derek From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:59:27 EDT Subject: tell us mr. kamakaze Obviously you haven't had a lot of experience with Lucas components. I have around 70 Britcars and they all have Lucas starters. About all the problem I have is an occasional worn out bendix drive usually caused by improper engagement. Michael* From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MHKitchen@aol.com To: derek.lola@sympatico.ca, JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:00:17 EDT Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness FYI, My Lotus Cortina has since switched to the Tilton Superstarter (actually a Nissan unit) after several let-downs by the Lucas boys, once on the grid!! Just thought I'd take this opportunity to start yet another thread and see if anybody has any new Lucas jokes.....please add to the list below. Lucas - Prince of Darkness Q. Why do the British drink warm beer? A. Lucas makes the refrigerators Lucas - the REAL inventors of the intermittent wiper Lucas switches have 3 positions: Off - Dim - Flicker Lucas electrics are powered by smoke, when the black smoke escapes, they're done, if its only white smoke they may be repaired, but when the smoke comes out, they quit. It was rumored that Lucas made oil seals, but this has not been confirmed. OKAY......your turn.... Myles H. Kitchen 1965 Lotus (de-Lucased) Cortina Mk1 #128 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Ccanepa50@aol.com To: MHKitchen@aol.com, owner-vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:13:59 EDT Subject: Re: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness Who told the one about Lucas making pacemakers? guess if it stops you just whack it with a knock-off hammer? From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bruce Thompson To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:44:36 +1200 Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness Hey Miles, As we all know, Lucas spare parts are very hard to get, Thus, a cure for the common cold, Just give it a Lucas part # , and no-one will get it. MHKitchen@aol.com wrote: > > FYI, > > My Lotus Cortina has since switched to the Tilton Superstarter (actually a > Nissan unit) after several let-downs by the Lucas boys, once on the grid!! > > Just thought I'd take this opportunity to start yet another thread and see if > anybody has any new Lucas jokes.....please add to the list below. > > Lucas - Prince of Darkness > > Q. Why do the British drink warm beer? > A. Lucas makes the refrigerators > > Lucas - the REAL inventors of the intermittent wiper > > Lucas switches have 3 positions: Off - Dim - Flicker > > Lucas electrics are powered by smoke, when the black smoke escapes, they're > done, if its only white smoke they may be repaired, but when the smoke comes > out, they quit. > > It was rumored that Lucas made oil seals, but this has not been confirmed. > > OKAY......your turn.... > > Myles H. Kitchen > 1965 Lotus (de-Lucased) Cortina Mk1 #128 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: NELIUS@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:07:19 EDT Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness In a message dated 98-07-22 00:25:56 EDT, Ccanepa50@aol.com writes: << Who told the one about Lucas making pacemakers? guess if it stops you just whack it with a knock-off hammer? >> Wasn't that the cause of Joseph Lucas' death? His Lucas pacemeker failed. Neil Harmon Stone Mountian, GA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: NELIUS@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:09:41 EDT Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness In a message dated 98-07-22 01:56:29 EDT, bandst@xtra.co.nz writes: << OKAY......your turn.... >> Joseph Lucas .. the original patent holder of the Short Circuit Neil Harmon Stone Mountain, GA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: NELIUS@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:11:49 EDT Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness In a message dated 98-07-22 00:16:40 EDT, you write: << OKAY......your turn.. >> Lucas once entered the home appliance market with the production of vacuum cleaners. It failed because it was the only product they made that didn't suck. Neil Harmon Stone Mountain, GA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: Derek Harling Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:33:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Izuzu starter At 09:21 PM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote: >JWoesvra@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 98-07-21 16:46:18 EDT, gmapes@ball.com writes: >> >> << OK - what is the advantage Izuzu starter for a 1275 vs the lucas unit? >> Is it weight, price or what? >> Thanks >> Glenn Mapes >> >> >> Obviously you haven't had a lot of experience with Lucas components. >> >> Jack Woehrle > > >Jack >I have always respected your ability and opinions -so you are probably >right about Lucas components - but I have to say that I have NEVER been >let down by Lucas - yet. Derek, the rebuilt-by-lucas starter that I got for the Merlyn failed after no more than 20 starts - the pinion end brass bushing fell out! The Lucas rebuild also had a ten tooth pinion gear instead of 9 tooth, which I suspect accounts for why the ring gear on my flywheel was showing rapid wear. Even the best Lucas starter I've tried can barely turn over the engine - what do you use on your BDA? Brian Cheers, brian From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Dennis Murphy To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:46:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness Is it true that this is the Lucas employee's motto? " A good days work and 'ome before dark." Dennis Murphy '52 XK120 VSCDA Grp 2 #20 Geneva, IL From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: ferguss@philly.infi.net To: NELIUS@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:38:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness TECHNICAL EXTRA: ELECTRICAL THEORY BY JOSEPH LUCAS Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, which is the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing. When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (like, say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak." and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were frowned upon in British motorcycles for some time, largely because they consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires. It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, shock absorbers and hydraulic forks and disk brakes leak fluid, British tyres leak air, and the British defense establishment leaks secrets... so, naturally, British electrics leak smoke. >From the basic concept of electrical transmission of energy in the form of smoke, a better understanding of the mysteries of electrical components - - especially those of Lucas manufacture - - is gained by the casual user. Jeremy Fergusson Wayne, PA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "Vintage race (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:35:38 -0400 Subject: Thread WOW! If had any idea I was going to get a thread as crazy as Derek Harlings "Data Logging" started I would have broken my fingers. GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Susan and John Roper To: MHKitchen@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:46:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness Mr. Lucas always said "A good day's work, and home before dark" John MHKitchen@aol.com wrote: > FYI, > > My Lotus Cortina has since switched to the Tilton Superstarter (actually a > Nissan unit) after several let-downs by the Lucas boys, once on the grid!! > > Just thought I'd take this opportunity to start yet another thread and see if > anybody has any new Lucas jokes.....please add to the list below. > > Lucas - Prince of Darkness > > Q. Why do the British drink warm beer? > A. Lucas makes the refrigerators > > Lucas - the REAL inventors of the intermittent wiper > > Lucas switches have 3 positions: Off - Dim - Flicker > > Lucas electrics are powered by smoke, when the black smoke escapes, they're > done, if its only white smoke they may be repaired, but when the smoke comes > out, they quit. > > It was rumored that Lucas made oil seals, but this has not been confirmed. > > OKAY......your turn.... > > Myles H. Kitchen > 1965 Lotus (de-Lucased) Cortina Mk1 #128 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: gmapes@ball.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:05:36 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-21 16:46:18 EDT, gmapes@ball.com writes: << OK - what is the advantage Izuzu starter for a 1275 vs the lucas unit? Is it weight, price or what? Thanks Glenn Mapes >> All kidding aside, there are several valid reasons: 1. Cost?: Lucas rebuilt; about $60. Early Isuzu; about $79. Late Isuzu; about $99. Tilton; about $275. 2. Weight?: Lucas and early Isuzu; about the same. Late Isuzu and Tilton; slightly less. 3. Availability?: Lucas and Tilton; generally mail order only, one to five days. Isuzu; over the counter at any auto parts store. There's usually one near race track, right? And you have a core that they will accept. 4. Torque (cranking power): Lucas (whimpy at best) Early Isuzu (will crank an XKE) Tilton and Late Isuzu (even better) 5. Originality?: Who's going to check your starter? For those of you that have "70 British cars, etc. with never a Lucas related problem, blah, blah, blah" I can only say that racin' is differn't than regular drivin'. Lucas stuff disinigrates on race cars. (Lucas fuel injection eccepted). Also, the Lucas starter in question has a centrifugal bendix which can (and usually will) kick out just when the motor starts to fire. The Isuzu starter has a solenoid activated bendix which holds until you let off on the switch. This is in my opinion the major advantage. You can keep cranking until a stubborn engine is fully going. By the way, the eary Isuzu is a direct drive unit (cranks faster) while the later one has a reduction gear (slower but more torque). You purests can continue to suffer the pleasures on originality. I commend you. I just have better things to do than worry about starter problems. Jack Woehrle From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: MRogers726@aol.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:05:39 EDT Subject: Re: tell us mr. kamakaze In a message dated 98-07-22 00:16:17 EDT, MRogers726@aol.com writes: << Obviously you haven't had a lot of experience with Lucas components. I have around 70 Britcars and they all have Lucas starters. >> It only takes one to ruin a race weekend. I probably wouldn't put one on a street car. Actually, I guess I probably would! Jack Woehrle From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:19:38 EDT Subject: "British Junk" It only takes one to ruin a race weekend. I probably wouldn't put one on a street car.Actually, I guess I probably would! Jack Woehrle I then can assume you have one of those more reliable nipponese street cars? From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: MRogers726@aol.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:03:29 EDT Subject: Re: "British Junk" In a message dated 98-07-22 13:34:47 EDT, MRogers726@aol.com writes: << I then can assume you have one of those more reliable nipponese street cars? >> Nope. 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado 1981 GMC Suburban 1972 MGB 1975 Jensen-Healey JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:40:05 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter Jack, Can you or anyone tell me of a Izuzu or other similar Japanese starter (gear reduction type) that will fit the 1800cc "B" series engine. I was considering a Tilton starter for my MGB but if there is a suitable substitute for alot less money, I would like to know about it. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: RodsINTOMG@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:03:20 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-22 14:40:05 EDT, RodsINTOMG writes: << Can you or anyone tell me of a Izuzu or other similar Japanese starter (gear reduction type) that will fit the 1800cc "B" series engine. >> I'm pretty sure that the same starter will fit the "B". I would like to know what all engines it does work on. Any car with a 5" spaced 2-bolt hole should be a candidate. When I first went to Pep Boys and "found" this match, I went through about fifty starters before I found this one. Most have an offset pinion and they won't work. In the 5" size, there were several with different pinion depths and solenoid positions. I'm not sure how critical this dimension is. There seems to be a certain amount of tollerance. The solenoid position is important because it may foul other accessories or the car itself. Good luck. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: NELIUS@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:05:56 EDT Subject: Re: "British Junk" In a message dated 98-07-22 14:58:28 EDT, NELIUS writes: << << 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado 1981 GMC Suburban 1972 MGB 1975 Jensen-Healey >> Whatever happened to the Wolseley? Neil >> Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Actually it will come back as a racer someday. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:08:02 EDT Subject: Fwd: Izuzu starter This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_901134482_boundary Content-ID: <0_901134482@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_901134482_boundary Content-ID: <0_901134482@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: JWoesvra@aol.com Return-path: To: tmartin@voyager.co.nz Subject: Re: Izuzu starter Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:05:44 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-07-22 01:08:31 EDT, tmartin@voyager.co.nz writes: << Modern American Man >> We are the way we are because there has always been a shortage of cooperative sheep in the USA. I suppose in NZ there is plenty of time to spend quality time with your lovely British cars when your carnal needs are so easily satisfied. Cheers, Jack Woehrle --part0_901134482_boundary-- From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:11:26 EDT Subject: Fwd: Izuzu starter This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_901134686_boundary Content-ID: <0_901134686@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_901134686_boundary Content-ID: <0_901134686@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay29.mx.aol.com (relay29.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.29]) by air12.mail.aol.com (v46.19) with SMTP; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:08:30 2000 Received: from host02.net.voyager.co.nz (host02.net.voyager.co.nz [203.21.30.125]) by relay29.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA01370 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from voyager.co.nz (ts1p01.net.napier.voyager.co.nz [203.21.26.5]) by host02.net.voyager.co.nz (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA07448 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:08:20 +1200 (NZST) Message-ID: <353D7C6B.91DC2789@voyager.co.nz> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:13:15 +1200 From: Tom Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) To: JWoesvra@aol.com Subject: Re: Izuzu starter References: <619a2c6c.35b51ee0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My experience with people who rubbish Lucas Starters is that invariably their ability to build an engine that starts is such that even Delco would cringe at the cranking duration of their starting attempts. A set of brushes and a coat of paint doesn't constitute an overhaul. Still, these were made when men were men and women were glad of it, so to assume that Modern American Man could cope could be asking a lot, especially when given moral support by ex-pat Poms who should know better! Tom Martin JWoesvra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-07-21 16:46:18 EDT, gmapes@ball.com writes: > > << OK - what is the advantage Izuzu starter for a 1275 vs the lucas unit? > Is it weight, price or what? > Thanks > Glenn Mapes >> > > Obviously you haven't had a lot of experience with Lucas components. > > Jack Woehrle --part0_901134686_boundary-- From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MHKitchen@aol.com To: JWoesvra@aol.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:45:27 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-22 15:12:16 EDT, JWoesvra@aol.com writes: << Still, these were made when men were men and women were glad of it, so to assume that Modern American Man could cope could be asking a lot, especially when given moral support by ex-pat Poms who should know better! >> These were the same men who designed, built, and operated the Titanic, I believe... Myles H. Kitchen 1965 Lotus (improved with good ol' American ingenuity, and an Italian engine builder!) Cortina Mk1 #128 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: MHKitchen@aol.com, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:01:13 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-22 15:45:27 EDT, MHKitchen writes: << Titanic >> Do you think the Titanic had Lucas bilge pumps? JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JonLowe@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:22:13 EDT Subject: Ferodo Brake Decals/stickers All, I'm looking for a vintage Ferodo brake sticker, black, red, and white, that had "Ferodo" in white letters on a black background over "Brake Linings" in white letters on a black background. Or as an alternate, any Ferodo decal or advertisement on paper from which I can take a high quality scan (larger is better). If you have a decal/sticker but don't want to part with it, please just loan it to me to scan. I never knew a decal would be so hard to get hold of! I've tried all of the companies I can find on the net that sell stickers with no luck yet. Thanks. Jon Lowe jonlowe@aol.com From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mike & Jaye Rosen To: vintage race Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:29:48 -0400 Subject: Cortina L block Does anyone out there have any Cortina L blocks they want to empty their garages of (damn, I hate when I dangle a participle)? A friend needs a block for a FB Brabham and is having trouble finding the Lotus Twin cam block Thanks in advance Mike - 1958 VAY Special From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Walt@chekov.mayfield.hp.com (Walt Boeninger) to: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:25:29 PDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter [from Derek Harling] > >Jack >I have always respected your ability and opinions -so you are probably >right about Lucas components - but I have to say that I have NEVER been >let down by Lucas - yet. This has included >Final note - this may be a dangerous confession - my very first job was >in the Lucas switchgear factory in the north of England!!!! Clearly that explains it. You are blessed, my son. Coincidentally, in 14 years of daily driving, my wife's TR-6 never had an electrical problem. Just fluid retention, err, *non-retention*.. ------- Regards Walt Boeninger - Nor Cal SAAC Web Site - http://www.norcal-saac.org Email: walt@hpwrcxe.mayfield.hp.com 67 GT500 & Shelby T-A coupe/ 71 Boss 351 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: NELIUS@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:37:01 EDT Subject: Re: Lucas - Prince of Darkness OK, Guys, one last contribution to the memory of Joseph Lucas. You know, all of these years we have had the electric light theory all wrong. Joseph Lucas was a true pioneer ahead of his time. The Lucas Dark Sucker Theory For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light, but recent Lucas research has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus, we call these bulbs Dark Suckers. The Dark Sucker Theory and the existence of dark suckers prove that dark has mass and is heavier than light. First, the basis of the Dark Sucker Theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. For example, take the Dark Sucker in the room you are in. There is much less dark right next to it than there is elsewhere. The larger the Dark Sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark Suckers in the parking lot have a much greater capacity to suck dark than the ones in your office. So with all things, Dark Suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the dark spot on a full Dark Sucker. A candle is a primitive Dark Sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You can see that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark that has been sucked into it. If you put a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, it will turn black. This is because it got in the way of the dark flowing into the candle. One of the disadvantages of these primitive Dark Suckers is their limited range. There are also portable Dark Suckers. In these, the bulbs can't handle all the dark by themselves and must be aided by a Dark Storage Unit. When the Dark Storage Unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced before the portable Dark Sucker can operate again. Dark has mass. When dark goes into a Dark Sucker, friction from the mass generates heat. Thus, it is not wise to touch an operating Dark Sucker. Candles present a special problem as the mass must travel into a solid wick instead of through clear glass. This generates a great amount of heat and therefore it's not wise to touch an operating candle. Also, dark is heavier than light. If you were to swim just below the surface of the lake, you would see a lot of light. If you were to slowly swim deeper and deeper, you would notice it getting darker and darker. When you get really deep, you would be in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats at the top. This is why it is called light. Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were to stand in a lit room in front of a closed, dark closet, and slowly opened the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet. But since dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet. So the next time you see an electric bulb, remember that it is a Dark Sucker, pioneered by Joseph Lucas. Neil Harmon Stone Mountain, GA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:34:49 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-22 15:28:49 EDT, you write: << We are the way we are because there has always been a shortage of cooperative sheep in the USA. I suppose in NZ there is plenty of time to spend quality time with your lovely British cars when your carnal needs are so easily satisfied. Cheers, Jack Woehrle >> I'll swap ya a sheep for something (preferrably British) From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:01:33 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-22 15:03:20 EDT, you write: << << Can you or anyone tell me of a Izuzu or other similar Japanese starter (gear reduction type) that will fit the 1800cc "B" series engine. >> I'm pretty sure that the same starter will fit the "B". I would like to know what all engines it does work on. Any car with a 5" spaced 2-bolt hole should be a candidate. When I first went to Pep Boys and "found" this match, I went through about fifty starters before I found this one. Most have an offset pinion and they won't work. In the 5" size, there were several with different pinion depths and solenoid positions. I'm not sure how critical this dimension is. There seems to be a certain amount of tollerance. The solenoid position is important because it may foul other accessories or the car itself. Good luck. JW >> Jack, I forgot to ask. On the Izuzu starter, does the pinion gear pull into the flywheel from the rear as on a Lucas (Bendix type) starter of from the front of the car? A racing pal of mine bought a small high touque starter from Bob Yarwood that looked real good, but the pinon engaged from the front of the flywheel making in necessary to reverse the ring gear on the flywheel. In other words, this new starter was not an easy bolt on and is still not on the car yet. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: RodsINTOMG@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:37:19 EDT Subject: Re: Izuzu starter In a message dated 98-07-23 11:01:33 EDT, RodsINTOMG writes: << A racing pal of mine bought a small high touque starter from Bob Yarwood that looked real good, but the pinon engaged from the front of the flywheel making in necessary to reverse the ring gear on the flywheel. In other words, this new starter was not an easy bolt on and is still not on the car yet. >> Your friend went to a lot of trouble for nothing. Yes it does come into the flywheel from the other side, and yes you might think that reversing the ring gear would be required because of the beveled teeth. For some reason that I don't know, these starters work fine with the ring gear in the normal position. I don't know of anyone who has had a problem. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:41:32 EDT Subject: Fwd: Izuzu starter This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_901215693_boundary Content-ID: <0_901215693@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For all those that asked me how we got off on sheep, and the Modern American Man, I have forwarded this. I didn't realize that is was sent just to me and not the net. My apologies to Tom Martin in NZ. We were just having a little Yank fun. You know that we can never be taken seriously, don't you? I'm not sure what the "ex-pat POM" comment refers to, but when I find out I will draft a suitable response. Help me out here guys. Were we insulted? Do Lucas (and other) starters turn backwards in the Southern hemispere? Jack Woehrle --part0_901215693_boundary Content-ID: <0_901215693@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay29.mx.aol.com (relay29.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.29]) by air12.mail.aol.com (v46.19) with SMTP; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:08:30 2000 Received: from host02.net.voyager.co.nz (host02.net.voyager.co.nz [203.21.30.125]) by relay29.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA01370 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from voyager.co.nz (ts1p01.net.napier.voyager.co.nz [203.21.26.5]) by host02.net.voyager.co.nz (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA07448 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:08:20 +1200 (NZST) Message-ID: <353D7C6B.91DC2789@voyager.co.nz> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:13:15 +1200 From: Tom Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) To: JWoesvra@aol.com Subject: Re: Izuzu starter References: <619a2c6c.35b51ee0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My experience with people who rubbish Lucas Starters is that invariably their ability to build an engine that starts is such that even Delco would cringe at the cranking duration of their starting attempts. A set of brushes and a coat of paint doesn't constitute an overhaul. Still, these were made when men were men and women were glad of it, so to assume that Modern American Man could cope could be asking a lot, especially when given moral support by ex-pat Poms who should know better! Tom Martin JWoesvra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-07-21 16:46:18 EDT, gmapes@ball.com writes: > > << OK - what is the advantage Izuzu starter for a 1275 vs the lucas unit? > Is it weight, price or what? > Thanks > Glenn Mapes >> > > Obviously you haven't had a lot of experience with Lucas components. > > Jack Woehrle --part0_901215693_boundary-- From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:51:20 EDT Subject: Fwd: Izuzu starter This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_901216280_boundary Content-ID: <0_901216280@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII And here is the other part of the puzzle. JW BTW, I didn't start the "British Junk" thread. --part0_901216280_boundary Content-ID: <0_901216280@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v46.19) with SMTP; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:17:31 -0400 Received: from host02.net.voyager.co.nz (host02.net.voyager.co.nz [203.21.30.125]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id PAA10353 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from voyager.co.nz (ts1p01.net.napier.voyager.co.nz [203.21.26.5]) by host02.net.voyager.co.nz (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA25656 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:17:26 +1200 (NZST) Message-ID: <353E436D.206DE798@voyager.co.nz> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:22:22 +1200 From: Tom Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) To: JWoesvra@aol.com Subject: Re: Izuzu starter References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit With your incumbent Prez setting examples its a wonder the US male has time for anything let alone the arcane pursuit of knowledge. As for sheep it seems that the US is populated by over 250,000,000 with Bill and Al tending to their "needs" JWoesvra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-07-22 01:08:31 EDT, tmartin@voyager.co.nz writes: > > << Modern American Man >> > > We are the way we are because there has always been a shortage of cooperative > sheep in the USA. I suppose in NZ there is plenty of time to spend quality > time with your lovely British cars when your carnal needs are so easily > satisfied. > > Cheers, Jack Woehrle --part0_901216280_boundary-- From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:06:26 EDT Subject: Fwd: Izuzu starter This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_901217186_boundary Content-ID: <0_901217186@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Another experience worth noting. Thanks, JW --part0_901217186_boundary Content-ID: <0_901217186@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: ALFABYTE@aol.com Return-path: To: JWoesvra@aol.com Subject: Re: Izuzu starter Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:01:24 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit the ring gear did not need to be reversed as the pinon is beveled. as long as one is beveled thats all you need for proper engagement. you don't need the beveled side of the ring gear. i posed the same question to Dave Bean Eng. re: a new aluminum flywheel for the Cortina a couple of years ago....it's been just fine with beveled side reversed. Gas On, Rick Dunleavy VSCDA grp.2 --part0_901217186_boundary-- From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: S800Racer@aol.com To: Walt@chekov.mayfield.hp.com, owner-vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:10:25 EDT Subject: Re: starters and "Nipponese" cars Bitch, Bitch, Bitch. I sure wish I had the choices that some of you guys are bitching about. Just thought the list might find it amusing to know what my little Jap car used for a starter since the thread revolves around the Izusu starter application. Ironically, I race a (mostly) reliable nipponese car - 1967 Honda S800. But Honda had some funky ideas for starting cars in those days. They connected the starter motor to the front of the crankshaft via a short chain. The chain in turn operates a "dog" clutch that turns the crank. The many downsides of this system include 1) wearing of the rollers in the dog clutch and eventual problems getting it to engage; 2) they are getting harder to come by and more expensive by the minute; 3) if you spin the car and roll backwards and don't push the clutch pedal, the dog clutch will engage and will ruin a rare and expensive starter motor; 4) last but not least it would be all but impossible to convert the car to ANY conventional starter. Okay, so now I'm the one doing the bitching and crying. But I feel better now that I have vented. Cheers, Doug Meis - Team Escargot From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:12:14 EDT Subject: ex-pat POM <> OH! It does appear to be an insult after all. When doing sheep, do you bugger or knacker them? Seems like it really doesn't matter that much. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:25:47 EDT Subject: Mixing parts One last thought about switching starters or anything else. I received this edited message today. << < I don't know of anyone who has had a problem. >> Would you like to see my bill for a new flywheel from Hutton Motor Engineering? We put a non-matching bevel type starter on our Lotus and it chewed up the flywheel. Maybe the difference was the lightweight flywheel. >> And my response: That is a different problem altogether. It's still a good point though. It is a good idea to make sure that the corresponding gears mesh properly when engaged. I would expect that in your case there must have been an unusual noise. Any of these starter swaps should be checked periodically to be sure that there isn't this sort of situation. Paint or dye on the flywheel should indicate if the parts are working together satisfactorally. There are always unexpected problems when you start swapping components that aren't designed to be used together. That is part of race preparation and fabrication, and it is why those good at it should get top dollar for their sevices. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: S800Racer@aol.com, Walt@chekov.mayfield.hp.com, Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:38:48 EDT Subject: Re: starters and "Nipponese" cars In a message dated 98-07-23 14:31:33 EDT, S800Racer@aol.com writes: << 4) last but not least it would be all but impossible to convert the car to ANY conventional starter. >> Why not put one of these Lucas starters on it? I'll bet there are a few that could be had cheap (free?). JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:53:02 EDT Subject: POM's Here are a few POM definitions. And to Tom in NZ, we are proud to be exactly what you have called us. Jack,An ex-patriat pom means an Englishman living elswhere.Ex- patriat is obvious.The Pom has several meanings one is Pom comes from pomme the french for apple as the Brits when they came from England had rosy cheeks that looked like red apples.The 2nd is mostly Australian in nature POME (prisoner of mother England) Jack- A Pom to a NZlander is a Brit... the "pom" refers to the helmets the soldiers used to wear. This I know, by the way, only because Phil Harris once explained it to me when I couldn't understand one of his jokes! I think POM is a disparaging term Australians use to describe Englishmen. It comes from "Prisoner Of Her Majesty". Australians like to think they're the ones that escaped, and that England is the island prison. Correct me if I'm wrong, Tom. I know I sometimes confuse knackered and buggered. Thanks, y'all. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:34:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Mixing parts FWIW, the Lucas-rebuilt motor that just failed on my car after one race weekend had a brand new ten tooth pinion. Presumably, it was designed to be compatible with the ring gear even though it would normally expect a nine tooth pinion, but wouldn't the added tooth reduce the torque transfer by 10%? And wouldn't that be a bad thing? Brian >That is a different problem altogether. It's still a good point though. It is >a good idea to make sure that the corresponding gears mesh properly when >engaged. I would expect that in your case there must have been an unusual >noise. Any of these starter swaps should be checked periodically to be sure >that there isn't this sort of situation. Paint or dye on the flywheel should >indicate if the parts are working together satisfactorally. > >There are always unexpected problems when you start swapping components that >aren't designed to be used together. That is part of race preparation and >fabrication, and it is why those good at it should get top dollar for their >sevices. > > >JW > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: brian@uunet.ca Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:43:32 EDT Subject: Re: Mixing parts In a message dated 98-07-23 15:32:05 EDT, brian@uunet.ca writes: << FWIW, the Lucas-rebuilt motor that just failed on my car after one race weekend had a brand new ten tooth pinion. Presumably, it was designed to be compatible with the ring gear even though it would normally expect a nine tooth pinion, but wouldn't the added tooth reduce the torque transfer by 10%? And wouldn't that be a bad thing? Brian >> I would think it would INCREASE the torque but reduce the cranking speed by the factor. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: brian@uunet.ca Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:46:24 EDT Subject: Re: Mixing parts In a message dated 98-07-23 15:32:05 EDT, brian@uunet.ca writes: << FWIW, the Lucas-rebuilt motor that just failed on my car after one race weekend had a brand new ten tooth pinion. Presumably, it was designed to be compatible with the ring gear even though it would normally expect a nine tooth pinion, but wouldn't the added tooth reduce the torque transfer by 10%? And wouldn't that be a bad thing? Brian >> Sorry, you are right. It would crank faster though, and THAT might be good. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: S800Racer@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:51:01 -0400 Subject: Re: starters and "Nipponese" cars That's exactly the system used in my old kawasaki 750 twin, owned years ago. I think it used little rollers and ramps that were forced to lock onto the crankshaft by centrifical force when the starter motor was turning faster than the crank. I was about 100 miles into a 300 mile ride one friday night, when the "clutch" decided to engage the starter motor , and nothing I could do from outside the engine would get it to un-engage. so I had the exciting opportunity to completely disassemble the side of the motor, and tear out the starter motor drive, the rollers, et al, on the side of the road, in the failing light, using only the cheesy tool kit included under the seat of the motorcycle! These tools are kind of like silhouettes of actual tools - the same shape, but made of some imitation metal... Some day I'll tell you how I changed the front wheel bearings on a Mini using only a hammer and a screwdriver, likewise on the side of a rather deserted highway. Cheers, Brian At 02:10 PM 7/23/98 -0400, you wrote: > Bitch, Bitch, Bitch. > I sure wish I had the choices that some of you guys are bitching about. > > Just thought the list might find it amusing to know what my little Jap car >used for a starter since the thread revolves around the Izusu starter >application. > > Ironically, I race a (mostly) reliable nipponese car - 1967 Honda S800. But >Honda had some funky ideas for starting cars in those days. They connected >the starter motor to the front of the crankshaft via a short chain. The chain >in turn operates a "dog" clutch that turns the crank. The many downsides of >this system include 1) wearing of the rollers in the dog clutch and eventual >problems getting it to engage; 2) they are getting harder to come by and more >expensive by the minute; 3) if you spin the car and roll backwards and don't >push the clutch pedal, the dog clutch will engage and will ruin a rare and >expensive starter motor; 4) last but not least it would be all but >impossible to convert the car to ANY conventional starter. > Okay, so now I'm the one doing the bitching and crying. But I feel better >now that I have vented. > > Cheers, Doug Meis - Team Escargot > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Keith Kaplan To: "'S800Racer@aol.com'" , Walt@chekov.mayfield.hp.com, Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:29:33 -0700 Subject: RE: starters and "Nipponese" cars You mean the kick starter won't go back on there? Seriously, the one way dog clutch sounds like the way motorcycle kick starters are typically connected. > -----Original Message----- > From: S800Racer@aol.com [SMTP:S800Racer@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 11:10 AM > To: Walt@chekov.mayfield.hp.com; owner-vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net; > vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net > Subject: Re: starters and "Nipponese" cars > > I race a <> 1967 Honda S800. <> 4) last but not least it > would be all but > impossible to convert the car to ANY conventional starter. > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Mog47@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:44:06 EDT Subject: Replacement Starter for Morgan (TR4) After following the Isuzu starter thread, I have to ask if there is a similiar substitute for the Lucas starter on my TR4 powered '60 Morgan. Anyone done that? Dennis Morrison From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: , , Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:59:38 -0400 Subject: RE: starters and "Nipponese" cars Maybe you need a leash on your starter dog. Is it licensed? GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bahnseye@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:50:35 EDT Subject: Re: BAAAA "the US male has time for anything let alone the arcane pursuit of knowledge. . ." That's CARNAL knowledge! JH Bahn From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Eoriu8@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:25:57 EDT Subject: Bla-Bla Hey everyone! Vintage racing! remember? Eoriu 8 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "Vintage race (E-mail)" , Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:21:52 -0400 Subject: Izuzu starter...the final story. That earlier model Izuzu starter does fit but it still takes a little sheet metal adjustment. The edge of the motor case just interferes with the edge of the foot well. A little heat and few whacks with a medium sized hammer to put a half-moon dimple in the seam and you have enough clearance. It turns the engine over like stink. In fact, it is so fast that I am thinking of using the starter like a passing gear. This part of my project went well. The other part will be the subject of a new thread which is sure to generate even more heat than the starter one. Watch for it. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:31:33 EDT Subject: Fwd: misc. drivel This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_901323094_boundary Content-ID: <0_901323094@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Here is the best and final (I hope) definition of POM, etc. And it is most appropriate coming from the chap who started the whole thing. I think we all should sheepishley acknowledge these final words which somehow relate to putting the wrong parts on archaic automobiles which we use for things that they were never designed to do. Thanks, Tom "Woolie" aka JW --part0_901323094_boundary Content-ID: <0_901323094@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v46.19) with SMTP; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 02:03:47 -0400 Received: from host02.net.voyager.co.nz (host02.net.voyager.co.nz [203.21.30.125]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA28699 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from voyager.co.nz (ts1p05.net.napier.voyager.co.nz [203.21.26.9]) by host02.net.voyager.co.nz (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA29931 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:45:25 +1200 (NZST) Message-ID: <3540281C.B63BF76E@voyager.co.nz> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:50:21 +1200 From: Tom Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) To: JWoesvra@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fwd: Izuzu starter References: <94c5d031.35b77819@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gidday Jack, Just to straighten a few misconceptions. It's Aussies who are "noted" for a predeliction for the woolie blonds. Apparently due to the occupation of boundary-rider who was lucky to see a male let alone a female in 3 months as they rode the boundaries of the big sheep runs. These runs could be measured in hundreds of square miles in area. They got lonely! Brits are Poms, Australians are Aussies, Frenchman are Frogs, Americans are Yanks................You get my drift? Not in insulting territory here. Now "bloody poms" that's a different matter! Normally associated with the odd Pom referee that comes down to referee a rugby match between NZ and OZ or SA and hasn't read the rule book! BTW Why are Americans called Yanks? It conjures up all sorts of unsavoury ideas! Rhymes with............. I'm sure there's a perfectly acceptable explanation. Knacker is what Poms do to horses. Especially at the Grand National where they give First Prize for the most restraint! As for the rotation of starter motors down here, I'll give an gestimate that, more than 50% rotate backwards to your Isuzu starter. You figure! Regards Tom Martin --part0_901323094_boundary-- From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jeremy Braithwaite To: "INTERNET:JWoesvra@aol.com" , Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:11:26 -0400 Subject: Whinging Poms Jack I haven't actively followed this thread so I may be repeating others' contributions ... Here "down under" in Oz there are a number of variations to the word Pom.= For example: "Whinging Pom" is usually applied to somebody fresh off the boat who continually compares things to the way they were back home. "It's too ho= t =2E.." and "Its too cold ..." are common complaints and are applied to th= e weather, the beer, etc "Bleeding Pom" is also used in conjunction with other nouns. For example= my father-in-law used to call me his "Bleeding Pommie Son-in-Law" which somedays could be interprested as term of endearment (usually after I'd bought him a beer) but in the early days was used in the phrase "No daughter of mine is going to marry a bleeding pom!". (I still haven't worked out how Julie and her Mum talked him round!) In the immediate post war (WWII) period the Poms were generally used as t= he excuse for everything that was wrong with the place. This was after the convict trade had stopped and the Aussie government decided that there we= re huge tracts of the place that needed populating. They bribed thousands, myself included, to migrate and as a result the place was full of Whingin= g Poms. Since then the Poms have lost control of the entry gates and the place ha= s been over-run with mediterraneans (who are all called Wogs) and hordes fr= om the immediate north who we are having great difficulty in teaching how to= drive! The place has now become so racially diversified that we have laws about using derogatory terms when referring to minority groups. There is howev= er no recorded instance of these laws being used in defence of us Poms! On that note I think I'd beter shut up before I get locked up! All the best Jeremy Braithwaite Age & Treachery Racing Australia From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "Vintage race (E-mail)" , Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:30:54 -0400 Subject: BMC A series oil seal problem I know that this is going to start another flood of British car jokes but here goes. Last summer I got fed up with oiled clutches and ordered one of those expensive aluminum oil seal carriers for the crank from Winners Circle. For the first couple of practice sessions things were OK and then my clutch started slipping again. When I pulled the engine I found that the seal had split or been cut. I checked carefully and saw that the carrier wasn't quite concentric with the crank. So I chalked this up to my error in assembly. Since I was going to rebuild the engine over the off season I had time to work out a good solution for installation. I machined a ring from Delrin that was the exact size of the seal and I drilled holes where the Allen head socket screws that attach the carrier to the block so that I could screw the carrier down with the template in place. When it was screwed down tight all I had to do was lift out the Delrin template and put in the seal. I am sure that I am within a thousandth or so of being concentric. It looked perfect! Today was D Day. Since I had a new cam and lifters I ran the engine for a full half hour on start up. Everything was great. Oil pressure was 70 pounds, water temp 180 and oil temp about 220. It ran for a half hour between 2000 and 3000 rpm and there was no sign of an oil leak anywhere. Pleased with myself, I went in and took a shower and put on clean clothes to run some errands. A half hour or so later, when I got ready to leave, I walked through the garage to admire my work and give myself a pat on the back. To my horror, there was at least a pint of oil on the floor directly under the car. Since I hadn't had any leaks while it was running I was mystified as to how it could leak that much oil without pressure. When I took out the bell housing inspection plug I had my answer. More oil than a Sheik! I guess it was leaking out around the flywheel all the time I was running the engine but the spinning flywheel kept it in the bell housing. When I shut it down, it came out the drip hole in the bottom. OK any of you geniuses out there have anything to offer on this one? And, BIG HAMMER is not acceptable! GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Susan and John Roper To: Gerald Brazil Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:29:38 -0500 Subject: Re: BMC A series oil seal problem Gerald, I can't solve your oil leak, but would recomment that you look into a velvatouch puck type clutch disc that will be much less affected by any oil that it sees. Only down side is possible increased wear on the flywheel. John Gerald Brazil wrote: > I know that this is going to start another flood of British car jokes but > here goes. > > Last summer I got fed up with oiled clutches and ordered one of those > expensive aluminum oil seal carriers for the crank from Winners Circle. For > the first couple of practice sessions things were OK and then my clutch > started slipping again. When I pulled the engine I found that the seal had > split or been cut. I checked carefully and saw that the carrier wasn't quite > concentric with the crank. So I chalked this up to my error in assembly. > Since I was going to rebuild the engine over the off season I had time to > work out a good solution for installation. > > I machined a ring from Delrin that was the exact size of the seal and I > drilled holes where the Allen head socket screws that attach the carrier to > the block so that I could screw the carrier down with the template in place. > When it was screwed down tight all I had to do was lift out the Delrin > template and put in the seal. I am sure that I am within a thousandth or so > of being concentric. It looked perfect! > > Today was D Day. Since I had a new cam and lifters I ran the engine for a > full half hour on start up. Everything was great. Oil pressure was 70 > pounds, water temp 180 and oil temp about 220. It ran for a half hour > between 2000 and 3000 rpm and there was no sign of an oil leak anywhere. > > Pleased with myself, I went in and took a shower and put on clean clothes to > run some errands. A half hour or so later, when I got ready to leave, I > walked through the garage to admire my work and give myself a pat on the > back. To my horror, there was at least a pint of oil on the floor directly > under the car. Since I hadn't had any leaks while it was running I was > mystified as to how it could leak that much oil without pressure. When I > took out the bell housing inspection plug I had my answer. More oil than a > Sheik! I guess it was leaking out around the flywheel all the time I was > running the engine but the spinning flywheel kept it in the bell housing. > When I shut it down, it came out the drip hole in the bottom. > > OK any of you geniuses out there have anything to offer on this one? And, > BIG HAMMER is not acceptable! > > GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: gerrybraz@voyager.net, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:22:17 EDT Subject: Re: BMC A series oil seal problem In a message dated 98-07-24 21:41:44 EDT, gerrybraz@voyager.net writes: << expensive aluminum oil seal carriers for the crank from Winners Circle. >> I have had a similar on going experience with a BMC powered FJ. I too used the Winner's Circle seal set-up. It didn't help the leak much and tended to "dump" oil after running. I tried improving the concentricity, etc. but nothing seemed to help the leaking. However, the Tilton clutch never slipped and worked fine in spite of the oil. I finally just sealed the bell housing with silicone sealer, plugged the drain hole and got in the habit of draining the bellhousing after each session. A real pain, but it did work. Dave Taber says that if you take the time to fit the rear main cap and the half moon upper piece, you will get very little leakage. You must lap the parts to get a perfect fit. Did you ever wonder what that little cotter pin in the hole in British bellhousings is for? It's to make sure the hole doesn't get plugged with dirt and cause the whole thing to fill up with oil. Now that's real engineering, isn't it? JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: WULFRIGH@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:26:56 EDT Subject: From the Pacific North West. My name is Darrell Ford and I have been on the listserv for about a month following the chats. It appeared that everyone was running some form of British four cylinder. But now it appears that I am not the only Detroit Iron driver out here. I am currently working on a 66 Mustang Coupe that will be used in some form of vintage racing. I would like to know it there is anyone else the Northwest that runs V-8 powered iron (or fiberglass if you must drive a chevy). Thanks. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Derek Harling To: JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:45:39 -0400 Subject: Re: BMC A series oil seal problem JWoesvra@aol.com wrote: > > Did you ever wonder what that little cotter pin in the hole in British > bellhousings is for? It's to make sure the hole doesn't get plugged with dirt > and cause the whole thing to fill up with oil. Now that's real engineering, > isn't it? > > JW Did Lucas make the hole or the cotter pin? Derek From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: derek.lola@sympatico.ca Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:32:24 EDT Subject: Re: BMC A series oil seal problem In a message dated 98-07-25 15:50:55 EDT, derek.lola@sympatico.ca writes: << Did Lucas make the hole or the cotter pin? Derek >> As one who takes every opportunity to credit Lucas when due, I can find no evidence that they provided either design assistance or actual parts sourcing for this ingenious device. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "John A. Rollins" To: JWoesvra@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 09:30:42 -0700 Subject: Re: ex-pat POM OK, and since we're still on this subject, who says the sheep have to be willing (original reference)???? Hell, getting there is half the fun (not to mention exercise)!!! Sorry, just had to put in my two cents... I'm going now... *8o) JWoesvra@aol.com wrote: > > < It comes from "Prisoner Of Her Majesty". Australians like to think they're > the ones that escaped, and that England is the island prison. Correct me if > I'm wrong, Tom. I know I sometimes confuse knackered and buggered.>> > > OH! It does appear to be an insult after all. > > When doing sheep, do you bugger or knacker them? Seems like it really doesn't > matter that much. > > JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Charlie \"Bud\" \"Yenko\" Doerge" To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net, autox@Autox.Team.Net Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:37:22 -0400 Subject: Time Trials At Pocono Raceway (North Course) > Dear Motorsports Fan, > > Your name was returned by doing a search in AOL using, racer, autoX, or > SCCA. > Drive Pocono Raceway > I am a member of the Bayshore Corvair Association. Our club rents Pocono > Raceway, the North Course. > What we offer you, is a chance to drive on a real race track under the > safest conditions. NO RACING. This is a time trial event. That means > practice and improvement of your driving skills. > We have driving instructors available for those who wish. > What we will do is to break the drivers down into groups based on > experience and a vehicle performance index. In this way novices are separated > from the more experienced drivers, i.e., fast car and fast drivers run > together. All makes of vehicles welcome. All levels of experience, from > novice to expert. > > This is our seventh year doing this event. > > It takes place on > September 12, 1998 > > Cost of $130 per driver postmarked before August 1, or $145 after. > > Those of you who are interested in driving Pocono, contact me at > RBuckridge@aol.com > or mail to, > Bayshore Corvair Assoc. > 21 Ardmore Road > Freehold, New Jersey 07728-7890 > or call > Days: 732-458-7680 > Weekends and evenings: 732-577-9133 > Fax: 732-458-1109 -- Visit my homepage at: http://home.switchboard.com/yenko From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MRogers726@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net (Vintage list) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:30:02 EDT Subject: Baaaaa who says the sheep have to be willing (original reference)???? Hell, getting there is half the fun (not to mention exercise)!!! Obviously not a participant of the 60's animal rights activities. Michael* From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: pmeis@bgsm.edu (paul meis) To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 1275 engine for sale/trade An acquaintance has asked that this notice be posted: BMC 1275 engine for sale/trade. Engine has recent rebuild and low miles, but is not race prepped. Owner would prefer trade for 948 engine and/or gearbox. Call Bill Breuer, (704)434-4924 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: "'paul meis'" , Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:20:58 -0400 Subject: RE: 1275 engine for sale/trade Does it leak a lot of oil around the crank? GJB -----Original Message----- From: owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net [mailto:owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of paul meis Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 9:42 AM To: vintage-race@autox.team.net Subject: 1275 engine for sale/trade An acquaintance has asked that this notice be posted: BMC 1275 engine for sale/trade. Engine has recent rebuild and low miles, but is not race prepped. Owner would prefer trade for 948 engine and/or gearbox. Call Bill Breuer, (704)434-4924 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: "Gerald Brazil" Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:07:54 -0400 Subject: RE: 1275 engine for sale/trade I have a full race 1275 shortblock for sale, about three race weekends on new build. Includes alloy flywheel, if desired. did Mosport in 1:48 flat in my Midget (with a head, of course). Any interest? Doesn't leak around rear seal, BTW! Brian At 11:20 AM 7/27/98 -0400, you wrote: >Does it leak a lot of oil around the crank? > >GJB > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net >[mailto:owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of paul meis >Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 9:42 AM >To: vintage-race@autox.team.net >Subject: 1275 engine for sale/trade > > >An acquaintance has asked that this notice be posted: >BMC 1275 engine for sale/trade. Engine has recent rebuild and low miles, >but is not race prepped. Owner would prefer trade for 948 engine and/or >gearbox. >Call Bill Breuer, (704)434-4924 > > > > From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Clark Smith To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:05:27 -0800 Subject: Two Scary Questions Hi All, Well, I've got you all figured for a bunch of "Movers and Shakers" in the worlds of racing and business. So, I have two unrelated questions: I am giving serious thought to creating another film about motor racing in the 1950's. My goal is to approach a wider audience, possibly via broadcast,to explain why this era and it cars are unique. I have footage to support West Coast events, and some *limited* footage for the East Coast (Watkins Glen, some Sebring 1958, 1959),Europe (Le Mans) and Melbourne. Of course, I am always looking to buy/restore some film stash in someone's basement, for which I offer several benefits to the photographer/seller in return (think preservation and ease of viewing, not big $$$ for residuals). My goal has always been to save these images for future enthusiasts, and a lot of film is degrading away. If we wait too long, all future documentaries will be "blue and white" and we'll have to get Ted Turner to colorize them. What color did you want your Ferrari to be?... But I digress. Money is always the big problem. I'll work on that part, wish me luck. Its a labor of love. My first question: I intend to tell the story using the words of people that have commited themselves to the era in some way. They may be current day collectors, period race drivers, auto dealers, spectators, photographers,promotors, tech inspectors, mechanics.... Who would you want to represent your passion to the masses? All suggestions must be for interviews with the currently living. They've gotta be able to "talk good". Give it a little thought. Big names like Shelby and Moss may not be willing, or necessary to the story. Extra credit if you know the person well enough to introduce me (maybe its you). Big question number two. *Totally* unrelated, but unfortunately weighing heavily on my mind right now: Does anyone know a good business attorney in the San Francisco area? I may have to begin building a case to end my 15 year business relationship. I'd be willing talk to an attorney anywhere to see if I'm in left base, but the business exists in California. Today is not an easy day for me. Thanks for your support either way. Clark From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Clark Smith To: TYLOTUS@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:53:20 -0800 Subject: Film Preservation Hi Tom, If you choose to take them out and project them, please let me offer some suggestions. I'm sure you know your stuff, but I have some pretty recent experience (I got to watch a "one last time" projection of some 1958 LeMans footage and the entire Gordini pit was wiped out by a broken tape splice. That was good for some tears). Please: Buy some Kodak Film Cleaner/Lubricant (you may have to buy a different brand, now, because its environmentally unfriendly). There is a constant drying process that occurs in storage so its important to *slowly* run the film through rewinds with the lubricant. You may find a lot of the film is stuck together from the pressure, especially near the core. If you shot Kodachrome or black and white, the base is pretty strong and it may hold up pretty well. If you shot Ektachrome (or any E-6 process), you'll be lucky if there is any red left and it tends to be more suceptible to scratches and breakage. Tape splices will be really dry and fragile. Any more than one broken sprocket hole needs to be repaired. These are just a few thoughs, please take them in the spirit they are offered. It's amazing how simple videotape has made our lives. But then, there's no replacement for the look of film. Thanks for the reply. Please write me if you have any questions. Clark >I have 16mm films of Sebring 57,58,59also 8mm Akron,Waterford Hills,Cumberland >and I think Connelsville, Haven"t looked at them in years should be worth >some laughs. Tom Yeager From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Trevor Taylor To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:38:44 -0400 Subject: paint stripping This is probably old hat but... I'm stripping the original paint off my formula juniors frame. I was planning to use a wire brush in my Makita grinder. However, a friend has offered to sandblast it cheap (free). Is this a good idea? I'm a little unsure. Thanks in advance. Trevor Taylor Stebro Mk.1 Fjr. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: JWoesvra@aol.com To: taylortl@mgl.ca, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:15:49 EDT Subject: Re: paint stripping We do it all the time. I can't imagine doing it with a wire wheel. Just make sure that you are careful. It will help you inspect the welds better too by really getting all the old paint out of them. JW From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Trevor Taylor To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:25:01 -0400 Subject: Re: paint stripping Thanks all. Soda blasting sounds like the way to go. - Trev Gerald Brazil wrote: > Trevor, IMHO sandblasting is OK but soda blasting is better. It leaves the > metal with a nice velvet finish, doesn't pit the metal and doesn't start to > rust immediately like sandblasting. If you do decide to do the sandblasting, > get a dry day and be ready to acid etch it with metal prep within minutes > of sandblasting. Wash the acid off per directions and dry it with towels and > then prime it within a few hours. After you have some primer on it you can > then go a little slower. If you do use soda, the need for urgency is not > quite so critical. From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Svorsp@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:32:12 EDT Subject: Cortina Hi, I am new to the list and just looking to find out any racing Cortina's on the list. Trying to locate one of my own right now, but the search of the southeast is not proving to fruitful. Have have one in Penn. a 4-dr but hey a 4-dr placed 2nd in the Peking to Paris for 1997. Also I will need some part sources so any help will be greatly appreciated. BTW I am a tool&die maker by trade with degree in mech eng, just like to work with my hands, drive a slightly modified 1984 Mustang SVO. See you on the wires. Robert Parker SVOOA#1739 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: RodsINTOMG@aol.com To: Svorsp@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:16:51 EDT Subject: Re: Cortina In a message dated 98-07-27 22:48:18 EDT, you write: << Hi, I am new to the list and just looking to find out any racing Cortina's on the list. Trying to locate one of my own right now, but the search of the southeast is not proving to fruitful. Have have one in Penn. a 4-dr but hey a 4-dr placed 2nd in the Peking to Paris for 1997. Also I will need some part sources so any help will be greatly appreciated. >> Robert, Myles Kitchen is The Cortina (Lotus Cortina) guy you need to talk to. His car is very (very) fast and it is for sale. Contact Myles at: MHKitchen@aol.com Rod Schweiger South San Francisco From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: gwood13@getonthe.net (G. Wood) To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:56:18 -0500 Subject: Spridget engines Just a thought about rear crank oiling. The stock Spridget doesn't have a rear oil seal, but relies on channels to bleed the oil back into the rear of the sump. On a steep slope (as on some car carriers} oil will run into the clutch. Insufficient crankcase ventilation will also encourage oil leakage. Extra ventilation and cleanup of the drain back channels will usually correct the problem. Gary From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MHKitchen@aol.com To: taylortl@mgl.ca, vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:19:26 EDT Subject: Re: paint stripping In a message dated 98-07-27 18:33:48 EDT, taylortl@mgl.ca writes: << a friend has offered to sandblast it cheap (free). Is this a good idea? I'm a little unsure. Thanks in advance. >> FYI, sandblasding is faster and easier, however, it can attack the metal, depending on the pressure and grit of sand used. A similar, but less abrasive medium is either a plastic bead blast, or something like walnut shells blast. Many commercial establishments offer the plastic bead blast at very competitive prices...its worth a look. I've used it on the exterior of the Cortina and it worked fine. Had to use sand blasting on the interior to cut some of the caked-on glue and tar from the sound deadener and carpeting. Regards, Myles H. Kitchen 1965 Lotus Cortina Mk1 #128 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Robert McCurdy To: "vintage-race@autox.team.net" Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:04:49 -0400 Subject: ATS wheel failures? Has anyone ever experienced cracking, fatigue failure or any other problems while using the ATS one piece wheel (as used on early to mid 1970's Lolas)? Robert McCurdy (Lola 322) From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Brian Evans To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:23:55 -0400 Subject: venting Hewland box's I'm running a Mk5 Hewland, totally stock. Should I make up a vent for the box? I've seen this done by drilling and tapping one of the two hex plugs on the top of the box. Will it reduce the oiling I get out of the front seal? Thx, Brian From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Svorsp@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:13:40 EDT Subject: Cortina Thanks for the info gang. The replies were more than I expected, to say I was pleased was a bit of an understatement. I am located in the Greenville SC, near the BMW plant, no I do not work there, but I do work for them occasionally. I was not able to read the e-mail for Mel K. due to a problem on my end and the email was deleted when I was able to get back on, please resend it, if you do not mind. I do not yet own a vintage racer but do enjoy going to as many event as possible. Met Ross Bremer at Vintage Gran Prix of Atlanta last and fell in love with that Escort his friend was driving. See you all on the wire and thanks again. Robert Parker SVOOA#1739 From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Malcolm Cox To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:53:29 -0700 Subject: MGA billet crank Heres what I have learnt about billet crank for my MGA. Moldex, Detroit will make 1 or more, at 10 pcs, they cost about $1600. They apparently do not use NC eqt and so each crank is pretty much individually made, so qty discounts are not aggressive. SCAT, Newport Beach (or thereabouts, I have their number if anyone would like it)) make billet cranks and often make Porsche parts. As a matter of interest, they are the subcontractor for the finish machining for Moss motors cranks (the forgings for which are made offshore somewhere or other). They will make a billet crank, but its not financially attractive, since I would have to buy 10 pcs lot, pay $6000 setup charges, pay 50% upfront and wait yonks. Would probably cost $1500..1800 ea. Farndon, in the UK ( 011 44 1203 366910) actually sent me a quote, how about that? For one pc, #850=approx $1400 at current xchange rates, before shipping and freight, customs clearance charges, chicken bone blessing ceremony fees etc etc. Delivery 12 weeks. Material EN40B (anyone know crossovers to US metal specs?). The contact who led me to Farndon recently had a Cosworth crank made and led me to believe that they are THE place to get billet cranks for European engines. Anyway, after all that, I just bought a MGA project. It included 2 cranks of as yet untested value, so it seems I may be well supplied with cranks for a while after all. Heres the math 2x$750 for a old and fully race prepared crank= 1xNEW billet crank Let ye be the judge. There now chaps, isnt that so much more interesting than vulgar sheep related insults? Malcolm, Napa From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: David Laver To: Malcolm Cox Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:22:08 +0100 Subject: Re: MGA billet crank Malcolm You should also try Phoenix, in England, on 01753-821-303. David From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: GDavidson To: vintage race Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:41:58 -0400 Subject: Miller event Did the Miller event take place this year? -- George Davidson From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Rabe, Joachim" To: "'Vintage Race'" Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:54:36 +0100 Subject: Borg Warner T10 Hi, everybody! My '64 Mercury Comet Cyclone is equipped with a Borg Warner T10 4-speed gearbox. Since we have to stick to FIA - appendix - K rules here in Germany, I have to live with the stock cast steel housing. Question : does anybody know if it is possible to swap the stock wide-ratio gears for the close-ratio innards of the later aluminum-(Corvette)-type T10? Regards Joachim Rabe From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jari Tabell To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:29:04 -0700 Subject: Historic Race Finland web site Club Historic Race Finland has opened their web site. Now also in English for those of you who doesn't understand Finnish :~) Please visit and see our arctic racing site at: http://personal.inet.fi/cool/hrf ... and give your comments. We are still developing it, so please stay tuned. At least there will be a photo gallery and much much more in the future. Regards, Jari, http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jtabell From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Jim Hayes To: CasloNO@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:36:48 -0400 Subject: Lime Rock Video Any of you guys interested in helping? How 'bout you Don? Seems anybody towing all across the US for a race has a unique story! Regards, Jim CasloNO@aol.com wrote: > > I work with Professional Video Productions in Metairie, LA and we will be > sending a video crew to cover the event at Lime Rock this Labor Day. We are > looking to gather information about the unique relationship that these vintage > race car owners have with their cars. We would appreciate any names, > addresses and e-mail contacts for members of your group who will be attending > the function. > We are also looking for sponsorships to support the production of this program > that will be made into video tapes and broadcast on SpeedVision. If we are > able to garner any financial support from your group or from a sponsor that > you are able to direct us towards we will make the video tapes available to > your members for our cost plus mailing. > Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. > > Caslo Cranston From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: CLCSF@aol.com To: hayes@mediaone.net, CasloNO@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:37:30 EDT Subject: Re: Lime Rock Video In a message dated 98-07-29 22:45:02 EDT, hayes@mediaone.net writes: << Any of you guys interested in helping? How 'bout you Don? Seems anybody towing all across the US for a race has a unique story! Regards, Jim >> Anyone who is interested in the saga of "Smoke & Mirrors Racing" is welcome to it. It all started in a liitle log cabin back in aught six --- no, wait a minute that's another story entirely. I can see it now " Eastward Ho ! " starring Troy McClure featuring shots of my famous shunts at major tracks throughout the country. We have many stories of the SF Bay area, but alas, no sponsorship. After paying Steward Transportation for the round trip, two week layover plus track support, the budget is exhausted. Don Queen SF "Smoke & Mirrors" From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: MrZAG57@aol.com To: vintage-race@Autox.Team.Net Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:34:27 EDT Subject: Plexi Wind Screen source OK guys and Gals, help me find a source for a plexi-glass windscreen for my race car. Some thing that fits an MG, Triumph, or Spridget should be modifiable to fit the Alpine. Thanks, Eric Funk Winnebago, IL 61 Sunbeam Alpine NSSCC Midwest Council VSCDA From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Gerald Brazil" To: , Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:08:24 -0400 Subject: RE: Plexi Wind Screen source You don't want to use Plexiglas, it shatters too easily. Proper material is Lexan. More expensive (as a racer, you knew that)but it hold up well. Have your glass removed, check thickness, then look in Yellow Pages under plastics. Find somebody who sell Lexan in the proper thickness and then take them your windscreen for a template. Take the Lexan back to your window guy and have it installed. Now isn't that easy! GJB From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: "Casey Annis" To: "Vintage Race Group" Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:15:36 -0700 Subject: ***The Vintage Racecar Journal is Here!*** The Vintage Racecar Journal & Market Report is here and advanced copies are now available! The enthusiasts source for Vintage Racecar history, restoration and market value information, VR features ninsights and information that you won't find anywhere else. Inside the debut issue: * Chevron B19/21/23...The Bullet from Bolton- An in depth look and analysis of one of the quickest and most desirable sport racers on the vintage circuit. * Interview- David Gooding managing Director of Christie's Auction House speaks about the state of the vintage racecar market and how to get the most out of the auction experience. * Pete Lyons- Reknown author Pete Lyons travels to the Goodwood Festival of Speed to examine some historic Porsches in a new light. * Tim Considine- Author and historian Tim Considine takes a fond look back at the life of an original American gentleman racer... F1 and Allard ace Fred Wacker. * Carroll Smith- Racing guru Carroll Smith, examines the growing role of the trackside engineer in vintage racing. * Under 2 liter Sports Racer Market Guide- Our panel of experts analyze the current market values and eligibilities for under 2 liter sports racers. PLUS * Product Reviews- Solid Copper Head Gaskets * Web Sites of Interest to Vintage Racers * News Briefs * Best Buys- Elva Mk7 & 8 and late model Super Vees * Over 50 Vintage Racecars for sale. Organized by class for easy reference If you'd like to receive a complimentary copy of this debut issue (US and Canada residents only), please send a request with your name and address to: Vintage Racecar 4141 Ball Rd., Suite 229 Cypress, CA 90630 or e-mail drivesafe@earthlink.net Introductory subscription rates now available; 1 year (12 issues) = $50 (15% off the cover price) 2 years (24 issues) = $90 (25% off the cover price!) Residents of; Canada/Mexico add $20 Europe (Air) add $30 All others add $40 US funds only please Phone orders welcome= (714) 828-6617 VISA/Mastercard/AMEx Gladly accepted From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Susan and John Roper To: Jim Hayes Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:28:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Lime Rock Video No sponsorship here, but if he wants to pick me and my 100-4 up in Covington, LA as he heads north and take us to Limerock, he can take all of the pictures he wants of both of us(I'm the goodlookin' one). John Jim Hayes wrote: > Any of you guys interested in helping? How 'bout you Don? Seems anybody > towing all across the US for a race has a unique story! > Regards, Jim > > CasloNO@aol.com wrote: > > > > I work with Professional Video Productions in Metairie, LA and we will be > > sending a video crew to cover the event at Lime Rock this Labor Day. We are > > looking to gather information about the unique relationship that these vintage > > race car owners have with their cars. We would appreciate any names, > > addresses and e-mail contacts for members of your group who will be attending > > the function. > > We are also looking for sponsorships to support the production of this program > > that will be made into video tapes and broadcast on SpeedVision. If we are > > able to garner any financial support from your group or from a sponsor that > > you are able to direct us towards we will make the video tapes available to > > your members for our cost plus mailing. > > Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. > > > > Caslo Cranston From vintage-race-owner Wed Jul 1 18:00:53 1998 From: Bill5600@aol.com To: geodav-lou@worldnet.att.net Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:40:22 EDT Subject: Re: Miller event Dear George. Yes, the Miller Club held their annual meeting on July 11 and 12. A number of wonderful old race cars were there, from a 1911 Franklin to 1946 Novi just back from Goodwood. Of interest to you would be Dean Butler's extremely quick Amilcar and supercharged MG NA. Hope that you will be able to join V.S.C.D.A.'s group one for racing or touring at Road America and Indianapolis this Fall. Bill Alexander