Subject: Re: [TR] Rear axle oil - overall lubricants and new designs

From: Mark Bradakis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 May 2026 00:49:18 -0600

For some reason this was flagged by Mailman.  No idea why.

mjb.

=========

-----Original Message-----

From: Triumphs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of John Macartney
Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2026 3:30 PM
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [TR] Rear axle oil

Had an early night after spending the day sorting old Standard-Triumph 
handbooks (among lots of other stuff) and have just checked the grade 
for Standard Vanguard and TR3/3A as both used the same axle. Factory 
recommended an 85W90 GL4 type Hypoy as offered by Shell, BP, Castrol, 
Duckhams, Texaco. IOW, a hyper lube type with an ultra high resistance 
to shear. Does the stuff you have offer the same lubricity properties? 
Never heard of it myself but most modern oils are a complete mystery to 
me anyway. Still can’t get used to the family daily driver only being 
allowed a 0w20 full synthetic. Pours like water!

Jonmac

=========

Regarding the 0w20, I'd like to have a bit of a rant on today's 
mechanical designs.

When we take a look at the longevity of the supposed "high technology" 
direct injection engines of today and over the past say 10-15 years, it 
is woefully clear that these driveline designs are not lasting.  Sure, 
they provide performance and a lot of mpg per BHP per cc/cid, but all 
that tech designs have all sorts of problems.
Might that be from too thin oil?  As a long time cross-discipline 
control system professional,  the lubricants  or use of improper spec 
lubricants may be a cause, but not entirely, as when you tear into these 
new tech engines, they are yes, mechanical marvels controlled by complex 
computer management, but also, mechanical nightmares more likely to 
self-destruct if a microparticle of contaminate invades the wrong 
internal spot, a sensor allows the wrong stuff to enter the engine 
somewhere or the coolant level drops because some plastic coolant 
manifold or connection has a weak spot and suddenly dumped all the 
coolant creating a high temp spike on the close tolerance components.

We love the new tech performance, but at what cost?

People slammed the Triumph Stag 2997 CC OHC V8 for its design "flaws" 
but when I dive into some of these newer engines there are strikingly 
similar designs copied, I have seen across many other engine 
manufacturers including GM, Mercedes, Toyota, Ford, JLR and others.  One 
example is timing chains, OHC design, etc.  Today's OHC engines, all of 
them, have issues with timing chain tensioners, guides, oil pumps which 
are manifested from engine designs over 75 years ago but cost cut even 
more and designed to very narrow performance limits and very close 
tolerance requirements.

When I look at these newer high-performance engines, they all appear to 
have the same old issues: multiple simplex roller timing chains (some 
use internal rubber belts!!!)  held in place by insufficiently designed 
guides and tensioners driving all sorts of internal components like 
oil/fuel/water pumps buried deep internally into the engine, variable 
valve timing, variable stroke, very high-pressure requirements for oil 
and fuel with electronics like solenoids and sensors operating in the 
component lubricants, and they all have significant design structural 
problems from material and cost scrimping and lack of real longevity 
whether they are petrol/gas or diesel.

I have been looking at the various JLR newer models, and what incredible 
value can be had in say a Range Rover autobiography /SV/Dynamic/ that 
had cost 180k USD or far more, yet with a blown 5.0 liter engine, they 
are relatively worthless.  To rebuild one of those 3.0 or 5.0 engines, 
have a look at some of the teardown and rebuilds of any modern direct 
injection engine and you will quickly see the engines are all completely 
disposable designs; materials are skimped in the blocks to save 
manufacturing time, weight and maximize cooling, but when they break, 
they self-destruct. Labor alone to tear down and reassemble is often 
more that the OEM cost of the entire engine, and the factory does not 
provide rebuild kits.  What is a pound of engine webbing structural 
aluminum removed from a 600 bhp supercharged engine as an assembly or 
weight saving design on a 6000# weight vehicle?  Maybe if designed for 
the track that amounts to a fraction of a second of speed, but a road 
vehicle?!?

Lubricants:
Historically, the fact was, API / SAE lubricants designed for components 
were once supposed to increase the range of mechanical protections with 
new specifications as time went on, where today, a mechanical component 
may be designed only for one very narrow type of lubricant that was 
designed only for that unique application.

The API/ SAE "meets or exceeds" statements must be carefully dissected 
to understand exactly what the lubricant use range and components 
lubricants are approved, which may take significant research.

If you decide to use your "favorite brand" oil or coolant in a modern 
driveline component not certified for use in that narrow design, you 
might be unknowingly starting the self-destruction timer.

So, to answer the question for our old and very reliable vehicles, BEGIN 
with the Owner's Manual / Factory Manual specification for your 
lubricants in and on your components as they were designed by the 
manufacturer, and if that type of lubricant is not available, look and 
understand what and why it was replaced with a later API/SAE tested 
lubricant that "should" add increased protection in that application.
AVOID AT ALL COSTS, "my buddies or I uses this and swears by it..."  I 
typically do not trust my local parts shoppe counter person for 
lubricant recommendation unless that counter person was once a master 
mechanic or factory trained tech, that being rare.  There are reams of 
Technical Service Bulletins where the factory engineers got it wrong 
too, only discovered during or after warranty periods.
Lubrication is its own science, but if you read the specs, you will get 
the limitations and also the mechanics tales for snake oil.

Caveat Emptor ya'll.

Glenn a.k.a. StagByTriumph

** [email-masked] **

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: bill beecher <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 May 2026 08:56:36 -0500

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--Apple-Mail-B34B54C0-A747-4A1E-AD65-096423E354A8
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Stay with a GL4 85/90w lube, I think j found it at NAPA.=20
Bill
TS30766L

=E2=80=9CThe harder I work, the luckier I get=E2=80=9D  H. Ford

On May 9, 2026, at 2:45=E2=80=AFAM, Mark Bradakis <[email-masked]> wrote:=

=EF=BB=BFFor some reason this was flagged by Mailman.  No idea why.

mjb.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

-----Original Message-----

From: Triumphs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of John Macartney=

Had an early night after spending the day sorting old Standard-Triumph handb=
ooks (among lots of other stuff) and have just checked the grade for Standar=
d Vanguard and TR3/3A as both used the same axle. Factory recommended an 85W=
90 GL4 type Hypoy as offered by Shell, BP, Castrol, Duckhams, Texaco. IOW, a=
 hyper lube type with an ultra high resistance to shear. Does the stuff you h=
ave offer the same lubricity properties? Never heard of it myself but most m=
odern oils are a complete mystery to me anyway. Still can=E2=80=99t get used=
 to the family daily driver only being allowed a 0w20 full synthetic. Pours l=
ike water!

Jonmac

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Regarding the 0w20, I'd like to have a bit of a rant on today's mechanical d=
esigns.

When we take a look at the longevity of the supposed "high technology" direc=
t injection engines of today and over the past say 10-15 years, it is woeful=
ly clear that these driveline designs are not lasting.  Sure, they provide p=
erformance and a lot of mpg per BHP per cc/cid, but all that tech designs ha=
ve all sorts of problems.
Might that be from too thin oil?  As a long time cross-discipline control sy=
stem professional,  the lubricants  or use of improper spec lubricants may b=
e a cause, but not entirely, as when you tear into these new tech engines, t=
hey are yes, mechanical marvels controlled by complex computer management, b=
ut also, mechanical nightmares more likely to self-destruct if a micropartic=
le of contaminate invades the wrong internal spot, a sensor allows the wrong=
 stuff to enter the engine somewhere or the coolant level drops because some=
 plastic coolant manifold or connection has a weak spot and suddenly dumped a=
ll the coolant creating a high temp spike on the close tolerance components.=

People slammed the Triumph Stag 2997 CC OHC V8 for its design "flaws" but wh=
en I dive into some of these newer engines there are strikingly similar desi=
gns copied, I have seen across many other engine manufacturers including GM,=
 Mercedes, Toyota, Ford, JLR and others.  One example is timing chains, OHC d=
esign, etc.  Today's OHC engines, all of them, have issues with timing chain=
 tensioners, guides, oil pumps which are manifested from engine designs over=
 75 years ago but cost cut even more and designed to very narrow performance=
 limits and very close tolerance requirements.

When I look at these newer high-performance engines, they all appear to have=
 the same old issues: multiple simplex roller timing chains (some use intern=
al rubber belts!!!)  held in place by insufficiently designed guides and ten=
sioners driving all sorts of internal components like oil/fuel/water pumps b=
uried deep internally into the engine, variable valve timing, variable strok=
e, very high-pressure requirements for oil and fuel with electronics like so=
lenoids and sensors operating in the component lubricants, and they all have=
 significant design structural problems from material and cost scrimping and=
 lack of real longevity whether they are petrol/gas or diesel.

I have been looking at the various JLR newer models, and what incredible val=
ue can be had in say a Range Rover autobiography /SV/Dynamic/ that had cost 1=
80k USD or far more, yet with a blown 5.0 liter engine, they are relatively w=
orthless.  To rebuild one of those 3.0 or 5.0 engines, have a look at some o=
f the teardown and rebuilds of any modern direct injection engine and you wi=
ll quickly see the engines are all completely disposable designs; materials a=
re skimped in the blocks to save manufacturing time, weight and maximize coo=
ling, but when they break, they self-destruct. Labor alone to tear down and r=
eassemble is often more that the OEM cost of the entire engine, and the fact=
ory does not provide rebuild kits.  What is a pound of engine webbing struct=
ural aluminum removed from a 600 bhp supercharged engine as an assembly or w=
eight saving design on a 6000# weight vehicle?  Maybe if designed for the tr=
ack that amounts to a fraction of a second of speed, but a road vehicle?!?

Lubricants:
Historically, the fact was, API / SAE lubricants designed for components wer=
e once supposed to increase the range of mechanical protections with new spe=
cifications as time went on, where today, a mechanical component may be desi=
gned only for one very narrow type of lubricant that was designed only for t=
hat unique application.

The API/ SAE "meets or exceeds" statements must be carefully dissected to un=
derstand exactly what the lubricant use range and components lubricants are a=
pproved, which may take significant research.

If you decide to use your "favorite brand" oil or coolant in a modern drivel=
ine component not certified for use in that narrow design, you might be unkn=
owingly starting the self-destruction timer.

So, to answer the question for our old and very reliable vehicles, BEGIN wit=
h the Owner's Manual / Factory Manual specification for your lubricants in a=
nd on your components as they were designed by the manufacturer, and if that=
 type of lubricant is not available, look and understand what and why it was=
 replaced with a later API/SAE tested lubricant that "should" add increased p=
rotection in that application.
AVOID AT ALL COSTS, "my buddies or I uses this and swears by it..."  I typic=
ally do not trust my local parts shoppe counter person for lubricant recomme=
ndation unless that counter person was once a master mechanic or factory tra=
ined tech, that being rare.  There are reams of Technical Service Bulletins w=
here the factory engineers got it wrong too, only discovered during or after=
 warranty periods.
Lubrication is its own science, but if you read the specs, you will get the l=
imitations and also the mechanics tales for snake oil.

Caveat Emptor ya'll.

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive=

[email-masked]

--Apple-Mail-B34B54C0-A747-4A1E-AD65-096423E354A8
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html class=3D"apple-mail-supports-explicit-dark-mode"><head><meta http-equi=
v=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body dir=3D=
"auto">Stay with a GL4 85/90w lube, I think j found it at NAPA.&nbsp;<div>Bi=
ll</div><div>TS30766L</div><div><br id=3D"lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">=E2=80=9CThe harder I work, the luckier I get<span style=3D"=
font-size: 19pt;">=E2=80=9D &nbsp;H. Ford</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>O=
n May 9, 2026, at 2:45=E2=80=AFAM, Mark Bradakis &lt;[email-masked]&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<span>For some reason this was f=
lagged by Mailman. &nbsp;No idea why.</span><br><span></span><br><span>mjb.<=
/span><br><span></span><br><span>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><br><span=
></span><br><span>-----Original Message-----</span><br><span></span><br><spa=
n>From: Triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt; On Behalf Of John M=
acartney</span><br><span>Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2026 3:30 PM</span><br><span=
>Cc: [email-masked]</span><br><span>Subject: [TR] Rear axle oil</sp=
an><br><span></span><br><span>Had an early night after spending the day sort=
ing old Standard-Triumph handbooks (among lots of other stuff) and have just=
 checked the grade for Standard Vanguard and TR3/3A as both used the same ax=
le. Factory recommended an 85W90 GL4 type Hypoy as offered by Shell, BP, Cas=
trol, Duckhams, Texaco. IOW, a hyper lube type with an ultra high resistance=
 to shear. Does the stuff you have offer the same lubricity properties? Neve=
r heard of it myself but most modern oils are a complete mystery to me anywa=
y. Still can=E2=80=99t get used to the family daily driver only being allowe=
d a 0w20 full synthetic. Pours like water!</span><br><span></span><br><span>=
Jonmac</span><br><span></span><br><span>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><b=
r><span></span><br><span>Regarding the 0w20, I'd like to have a bit of a ran=
t on today's mechanical designs.</span><br><span></span><br><span>When we ta=
ke a look at the longevity of the supposed "high technology" direct injectio=
n engines of today and over the past say 10-15 years, it is woefully clear t=
hat these driveline designs are not lasting. &nbsp;Sure, they provide perfor=
mance and a lot of mpg per BHP per cc/cid, but all that tech designs have al=
l sorts of problems.</span><br><span>Might that be from too thin oil? &nbsp;=
As a long time cross-discipline control system professional, &nbsp;the lubri=
cants &nbsp;or use of improper spec lubricants may be a cause, but not entir=
ely, as when you tear into these new tech engines, they are yes, mechanical m=
arvels controlled by complex computer management, but also, mechanical night=
mares more likely to self-destruct if a microparticle of contaminate invades=
 the wrong internal spot, a sensor allows the wrong stuff to enter the engin=
e somewhere or the coolant level drops because some plastic coolant manifold=
 or connection has a weak spot and suddenly dumped all the coolant creating a=
 high temp spike on the close tolerance components.</span><br><span></span><=
br><span>We love the new tech performance, but at what cost?</span><br><span=
></span><br><span>People slammed the Triumph Stag 2997 CC OHC V8 for its des=
ign "flaws" but when I dive into some of these newer engines there are strik=
ingly similar designs copied, I have seen across many other engine manufactu=
rers including GM, Mercedes, Toyota, Ford, JLR and others. &nbsp;One example=
 is timing chains, OHC design, etc. &nbsp;Today's OHC engines, all of them, h=
ave issues with timing chain tensioners, guides, oil pumps which are manifes=
ted from engine designs over 75 years ago but cost cut even more and designe=
d to very narrow performance limits and very close tolerance requirements.</=
span><br><span></span><br><span>When I look at these newer high-performance e=
ngines, they all appear to have the same old issues: multiple simplex roller=
 timing chains (some use internal rubber belts!!!) &nbsp;held in place by in=
sufficiently designed guides and tensioners driving all sorts of internal co=
mponents like oil/fuel/water pumps buried deep internally into the engine, v=
ariable valve timing, variable stroke, very high-pressure requirements for o=
il and fuel with electronics like solenoids and sensors operating in the com=
ponent lubricants, and they all have significant design structural problems f=
rom material and cost scrimping and lack of real longevity whether they are p=
etrol/gas or diesel.</span><br><span></span><br><span>I have been looking at=
 the various JLR newer models, and what incredible value can be had in say a=
 Range Rover autobiography /SV/Dynamic/ that had cost 180k USD or far more, y=
et with a blown 5.0 liter engine, they are relatively worthless. &nbsp;To re=
build one of those 3.0 or 5.0 engines, have a look at some of the teardown a=
nd rebuilds of any modern direct injection engine and you will quickly see t=
he engines are all completely disposable designs; materials are skimped in t=
he blocks to save manufacturing time, weight and maximize cooling, but when t=
hey break, they self-destruct. Labor alone to tear down and reassemble is of=
ten more that the OEM cost of the entire engine, and the factory does not pr=
ovide rebuild kits. &nbsp;What is a pound of engine webbing structural alumi=
num removed from a 600 bhp supercharged engine as an assembly or weight savi=
ng design on a 6000# weight vehicle? &nbsp;Maybe if designed for the track t=
hat amounts to a fraction of a second of speed, but a road vehicle?!?</span>=
<br><span></span><br><span>Lubricants:</span><br><span>Historically, the fac=
t was, API / SAE lubricants designed for components were once supposed to in=
crease the range of mechanical protections with new specifications as time w=
ent on, where today, a mechanical component may be designed only for one ver=
y narrow type of lubricant that was designed only for that unique applicatio=
n.</span><br><span></span><br><span>The API/ SAE "meets or exceeds" statemen=
ts must be carefully dissected to understand exactly what the lubricant use r=
ange and components lubricants are approved, which may take significant rese=
arch.</span><br><span></span><br><span>If you decide to use your "favorite b=
rand" oil or coolant in a modern driveline component not certified for use i=
n that narrow design, you might be unknowingly starting the self-destruction=
 timer.</span><br><span></span><br><span>So, to answer the question for our o=
ld and very reliable vehicles, BEGIN with the Owner's Manual / Factory Manua=
l specification for your lubricants in and on your components as they were d=
esigned by the manufacturer, and if that type of lubricant is not available,=
 look and understand what and why it was replaced with a later API/SAE teste=
d lubricant that "should" add increased protection in that application.</spa=
n><br><span>AVOID AT ALL COSTS, "my buddies or I uses this and swears by it.=
.." &nbsp;I typically do not trust my local parts shoppe counter person for l=
ubricant recommendation unless that counter person was once a master mechani=
c or factory trained tech, that being rare. &nbsp;There are reams of Technic=
al Service Bulletins where the factory engineers got it wrong too, only disc=
overed during or after warranty periods.</span><br><span>Lubrication is its o=
wn science, but if you read the specs, you will get the limitations and also=
 the mechanics tales for snake oil.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Caveat E=
mptor ya'll.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Glenn a.k.a. StagByTriumph</sp=
an><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span>** [email-masked] **=
</span><br><span></span><br><span>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html</s=
pan><br><span>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs &nbsp;http://w=
ww.team.net/archive</span><br><span></span><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: htt=
p://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</span><br><=
/div></div></body></html>=

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---

From: John Macartney <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 May 2026 21:31:52 +0100

Sorry. What did I do wrong?

Jonmac

> On 9 May 2026, at 07:49, Mark Bradakis <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Had an early night after spending the day sorting old Standard-Triumph handbooks (among lots of other stuff) and have just checked the grade for Standard Vanguard and TR3/3A as both used the same axle. Factory recommended an 85W90 GL4 type Hypoy as offered by Shell, BP, Castrol, Duckhams, Texaco. IOW, a hyper lube type with an ultra high resistance to shear. Does the stuff you have offer the same lubricity properties? Never heard of it myself but most modern oils are a complete mystery to me anyway. Still can’t get used to the family daily driver only being allowed a 0w20 full synthetic. Pours like water!
> 
> Jonmac
> 
> =========
> 
> Regarding the 0w20, I'd like to have a bit of a rant on today's mechanical designs.
> 
> When we take a look at the longevity of the supposed "high technology" direct injection engines of today and over the past say 10-15 years, it is woefully clear that these driveline designs are not lasting.  Sure, they provide performance and a lot of mpg per BHP per cc/cid, but all that tech designs have all sorts of problems.
> Might that be from too thin oil?  As a long time cross-discipline control system professional,  the lubricants  or use of improper spec lubricants may be a cause, but not entirely, as when you tear into these new tech engines, they are yes, mechanical marvels controlled by complex computer management, but also, mechanical nightmares more likely to self-destruct if a microparticle of contaminate invades the wrong internal spot, a sensor allows the wrong stuff to enter the engine somewhere or the coolant level drops because some plastic coolant manifold or connection has a weak spot and suddenly dumped all the coolant creating a high temp spike on the close tolerance components.
> 
> People slammed the Triumph Stag 2997 CC OHC V8 for its design "flaws" but when I dive into some of these newer engines there are strikingly similar designs copied, I have seen across many other engine manufacturers including GM, Mercedes, Toyota, Ford, JLR and others.  One example is timing chains, OHC design, etc.  Today's OHC engines, all of them, have issues with timing chain tensioners, guides, oil pumps which are manifested from engine designs over 75 years ago but cost cut even more and designed to very narrow performance limits and very close tolerance requirements.
> 
> When I look at these newer high-performance engines, they all appear to have the same old issues: multiple simplex roller timing chains (some use internal rubber belts!!!)  held in place by insufficiently designed guides and tensioners driving all sorts of internal components like oil/fuel/water pumps buried deep internally into the engine, variable valve timing, variable stroke, very high-pressure requirements for oil and fuel with electronics like solenoids and sensors operating in the component lubricants, and they all have significant design structural problems from material and cost scrimping and lack of real longevity whether they are petrol/gas or diesel.
> 
> I have been looking at the various JLR newer models, and what incredible value can be had in say a Range Rover autobiography /SV/Dynamic/ that had cost 180k USD or far more, yet with a blown 5.0 liter engine, they are relatively worthless.  To rebuild one of those 3.0 or 5.0 engines, have a look at some of the teardown and rebuilds of any modern direct injection engine and you will quickly see the engines are all completely disposable designs; materials are skimped in the blocks to save manufacturing time, weight and maximize cooling, but when they break, they self-destruct. Labor alone to tear down and reassemble is often more that the OEM cost of the entire engine, and the factory does not provide rebuild kits.  What is a pound of engine webbing structural aluminum removed from a 600 bhp supercharged engine as an assembly or weight saving design on a 6000# weight vehicle?  Maybe if designed for the track that amounts to a fraction of a second of speed, but a road vehicle?!?
> 
> Lubricants:
> Historically, the fact was, API / SAE lubricants designed for components were once supposed to increase the range of mechanical protections with new specifications as time went on, where today, a mechanical component may be designed only for one very narrow type of lubricant that was designed only for that unique application.
> 
> The API/ SAE "meets or exceeds" statements must be carefully dissected to understand exactly what the lubricant use range and components lubricants are approved, which may take significant research.
> 
> If you decide to use your "favorite brand" oil or coolant in a modern driveline component not certified for use in that narrow design, you might be unknowingly starting the self-destruction timer.
> 
> So, to answer the question for our old and very reliable vehicles, BEGIN with the Owner's Manual / Factory Manual specification for your lubricants in and on your components as they were designed by the manufacturer, and if that type of lubricant is not available, look and understand what and why it was replaced with a later API/SAE tested lubricant that "should" add increased protection in that application.
> AVOID AT ALL COSTS, "my buddies or I uses this and swears by it..."  I typically do not trust my local parts shoppe counter person for lubricant recommendation unless that counter person was once a master mechanic or factory trained tech, that being rare.  There are reams of Technical Service Bulletins where the factory engineers got it wrong too, only discovered during or after warranty periods.
> Lubrication is its own science, but if you read the specs, you will get the limitations and also the mechanics tales for snake oil.
> 
> Caveat Emptor ya'll.
>

---

From: Mark Bradakis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 May 2026 15:14:12 -0600

> Sorry. What did I do wrong?

Your message went through just fine.  It was Glenn's reply that got hung 
up for some unknown reason.

mjb.