Subject: Re: [TR] Brake fluids again

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 22:55:40 -0700

All brake fluid is "synthetic" whether it says so on the can or not.  It's
not made from petroleum distillate.

Yes, DOT 4 will absorb water, eat paint and so on.  Castrol claims theirs
absorbs slower than others (the "LMA"), but it still absorbs.

DOT 5 is a completely different chemistry, a silicone oil rather than the
glycols used in DOT 3, 4 and 5.1.  It does not absorb water, eat paint,
become corrosive over time, etc.  

Look for the word "silicone" on the label.  DOT 5 must have it, the others
cannot have it.

The word "synthetic" is totally meaningless for brake fluid.

FWIW, both of my Stags have DOT 5 in them.

-- Randall 

> I'm rebuild brakes and clutch with new seal on a Stag. I have 
>  this brake fluid 
> 
> https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutch-castrol-lma-12-
> oz.html  
> 
> which says DOT 4 synthetic  (Castrol) . If it is synthetic, 
> will it absorb water? 
> 
> I'm a bit confused as people are saying get DOT5. synthetic. 
> Is the buzz word synthetic? 

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

---

From: "Reihing, Randall S." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:33:32 +0000

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Hello All,

Thank you Randall for this valuable and important clarification.

I am in the process of replacing just the rotors, calipers and two of the f=
lexible brake lines to teh calipers. Can I drain out the existing DOT 4 and=
 switch to DOT 5?

Or do I need to completely flush the entire system and replace all the whee=
l cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch master and slave cylinder seals whe=
n converting from DOT 4 to DOT 5?

Randall Reihing
1959 TR3A

________________________________
From: Triumphs <[email-masked]> on behalf of Randall <TR3d=
[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 1:55 AM
To: 'Sujit Roy' <[email-masked]>; 'Triumphs' <[email-masked]=
t>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [TR] Brake fluids again

-- Randall

> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutc=
h-castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-=
6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$

wcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OEaR3r=
ck$
Archive: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs=
__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQ=
Y8OojB5CFg$   https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.team.net/archive__;!!L=
oBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OFP0=
OqSc$

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
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<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Hello All,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Thank you Randall for this valuable and important clarification.&nbsp;</div=
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I am in the process of replacing just the rotors, calipers and two of the f=
lexible brake lines to teh calipers. Can I drain out the existing DOT 4 and=
 switch to DOT 5?&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Or do I need to completely flush the entire system and replace all the whee=
l cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch master and slave cylinder seals whe=
n converting from DOT 4 to DOT 5? &nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Randall Reihing</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
1959 TR3A</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Triumphs &lt;triumphs=
[email-masked]&gt; on behalf of Randall &lt;[email-masked]&gt=
;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2020 1:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sujit Roy' &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; 'Triumphs' &lt;triump=
[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [TR] Brake fluids again</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
">
<div class=3D"PlainText">All brake fluid is &quot;synthetic&quot; whether i=
t says so on the can or not.&nbsp; It's<br>
not made from petroleum distillate.<br>
<br>
Yes, DOT 4 will absorb water, eat paint and so on.&nbsp; Castrol claims the=
irs<br>
absorbs slower than others (the &quot;LMA&quot;), but it still absorbs.<br>
<br>
DOT 5 is a completely different chemistry, a silicone oil rather than the<b=
r>
glycols used in DOT 3, 4 and 5.1.&nbsp; It does not absorb water, eat paint=
,<br>
become corrosive over time, etc.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Look for the word &quot;silicone&quot; on the label.&nbsp; DOT 5 must have =
it, the others<br>
cannot have it.<br>
<br>
The word &quot;synthetic&quot; is totally meaningless for brake fluid.<br>
<br>
FWIW, both of my Stags have DOT 5 in them.<br>
<br>
-- Randall <br>
<br>
&gt; I'm rebuild brakes and clutch with new seal on a Stag. I have <br>
&gt;&nbsp; this brake fluid <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/flu=
id-brake-clutch-castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_=
lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$">
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutch-=
castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6U=
D6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$</a>
<br>
&gt; oz.html&nbsp; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; which says DOT 4 synthetic&nbsp; (Castrol) . If it is synthetic, <br>
&gt; will it absorb water? <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I'm a bit confused as people are saying get DOT5. synthetic. <br>
&gt; Is the buzz word synthetic? <br>
<br>
** [email-masked] **<br>
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From: JOE CURRY <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 07:48:38 -0600 (MDT)

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I converted to DOT5 in both my Spits.  I just purged the system both times and the only thing I had to rebuild is one caliper which began to seep a little.  It has been 19 years on one car and a year on the second.

Joe

> On April 16, 2020 at 6:33 AM "Reihing, Randall S." <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>     Hello All,
> 
>     I am in the process of replacing just the rotors, calipers and two of the flexible brake lines to teh calipers. Can I drain out the existing DOT 4 and switch to DOT 5? 
> 
>     Or do I need to completely flush the entire system and replace all the wheel cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch master and slave cylinder seals when converting from DOT 4 to DOT 5?  
> 
>     Randall Reihing
>     1959 TR3A
> 
>      
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------
>     From: Triumphs <[email-masked]> on behalf of Randall <[email-masked]>
>     To: 'Sujit Roy' <[email-masked]>; 'Triumphs' <[email-masked]>
>     > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutch-castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutch-castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$
>     > oz.html 
>     >
>     Donate: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.team.net/donate.html__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OEaR3rck$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.team.net/donate.html__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OEaR3rck$
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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html><head>
    <meta charset=3D"UTF-8">
</head><body><p>I converted to DOT5 in both my Spits.&#160; I just purged t=
he system both times and the only thing I had to rebuild is one caliper whi=
ch began to seep a little.&#160; It has been 19 years on one car and a year=
 on the second.</p><p><br></p><p>Joe</p><blockquote type=3D"cite">On April =
16, 2020 at 6:33 AM &#34;Reihing, Randall S.&#34; &#60;Randall.Reihing@utol=
edo.edu&#62; wrote: <br> <br><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Hel=
vetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">Hello All,</div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12p=
t; color: #000000;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, He=
lvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">Thank you Randall fo=
r this valuable and important clarification.&#160;</div><div style=3D"font-=
family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000=
000;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-=
serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">I am in the process of replacing j=
ust the rotors, calipers and two of the flexible brake lines to teh caliper=
s. Can I drain out the existing DOT 4 and switch to DOT 5?&#160;</div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12p=
t; color: #000000;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, He=
lvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">Or do I need to comp=
letely flush the entire system and replace all the wheel cylinder, master c=
ylinder, and clutch master and slave cylinder seals when converting from DO=
T 4 to DOT 5? &#160;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvet=
ica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;"><br></div><div style=3D"=
font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color:=
 #000000;">Randall Reihing</div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, =
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">1959 TR3A</div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
2pt; color: #000000;"><br></div>&#160;<br><hr style=3D"display: inline-bloc=
k; width: 98%;"><div id=3D"ox-2257860b98-divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: #000000; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"=
><strong>From:</strong> Triumphs &#60;[email-masked]&#62; =
on behalf of Randall &#60;[email-masked]&#62;<br> <strong>Sent:</stron=
g> Thursday, April 16, 2020 1:55 AM<br> <strong>To:</strong> &#39;Sujit Roy=
&#39; &#60;[email-masked]&#62;; &#39;Triumphs&#39; &#60;triumphs@aut=
ox.team.net&#62;<br> <strong>Subject:</strong> [EXTERNAL] Re: [TR] Brake fl=
uids again</span><div>&#160;</div></div><div class=3D"ox-2257860b98-BodyFra=
gment"><div class=3D"ox-2257860b98-PlainText">All brake fluid is &#34;synth=
etic&#34; whether it says so on the can or not.&#160; It&#39;s <br> not mad=
e from petroleum distillate. <br> <br> Yes, DOT 4 will absorb water, eat pa=
int and so on.&#160; Castrol claims theirs <br> absorbs slower than others =
(the &#34;LMA&#34;), but it still absorbs. <br> <br> DOT 5 is a completely =
different chemistry, a silicone oil rather than the <br> glycols used in DO=
T 3, 4 and 5.1.&#160; It does not absorb water, eat paint, <br> become corr=
osive over time, etc.&#160; <br> <br> Look for the word &#34;silicone&#34; =
on the label.&#160; DOT 5 must have it, the others <br> cannot have it. <br=
> <br> The word &#34;synthetic&#34; is totally meaningless for brake fluid.=
 <br> <br> FWIW, both of my Stags have DOT 5 in them. <br> <br> -- Randall =
<br> <br> &#62; I&#39;m rebuild brakes and clutch with new seal on a Stag. =
I have <br> &#62;&#160; this brake fluid <br> &#62; <br> &#62; <a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutch-c=
astrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD=
6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$"> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorth=
west.com/fluid-brake-clutch-castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0W=
kgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$</a> <br> &#62; oz.ht=
ml&#160; <br> &#62; <br> &#62; which says DOT 4 synthetic&#160; (Castrol) .=
 If it is synthetic, <br> &#62; will it absorb water? <br> &#62; <br> &#62;=
 I&#39;m a bit confused as people are saying get DOT5. synthetic. <br> &#62=
; Is the buzz word synthetic? <br> <br> ** [email-masked] ** <br> =
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From: TERRY SMITH <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:02:19 -0400 (EDT)

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Making the switch without a complete flush doesn't harm anything.  With DOT 5 you will get improvements in brake/clutch line corrosion resistance, but to maximize it you  might want to blow air through the drained lines to get as much of the old Dot 4 out as possible, since it will cling to the low spots in the lines after you drain the system.  

I've run DOT 5 silicone ever since restoring my 3 in 2006.  Really glad I did.  

> On April 16, 2020 at 8:33 AM "Reihing, Randall S." <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>     Hello All,
> 
>     Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
> 

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<html>
 <head> 
  <meta charset="UTF-8"> 
 </head>
 <body>
  <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
   Making the switch without a complete flush doesn't harm anything.&nbsp; With DOT 5 you will get improvements in brake/clutch line corrosion resistance, but to maximize it you&nbsp; might want to blow air through the drained lines to get as much of the old Dot 4 out as possible, since it will cling to the low spots in the lines after you drain the system.&nbsp;&nbsp;
  </div>
  <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
   <br>
  </div>
  <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
   I've run DOT 5 silicone ever since restoring my 3 in 2006.&nbsp; Really glad I did.&nbsp;&nbsp;
  </div>
  <blockquote type="cite">
   On April 16, 2020 at 8:33 AM "Reihing, Randall S." &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote: 
   <br> 
   <br>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    Hello All,
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    <br>
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    Thank you Randall for this valuable and important clarification.&nbsp;
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    <br>
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    I am in the process of replacing just the rotors, calipers and two of the flexible brake lines to teh calipers. Can I drain out the existing DOT 4 and switch to DOT 5?&nbsp;
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    <br>
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    Or do I need to completely flush the entire system and replace all the wheel cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch master and slave cylinder seals when converting from DOT 4 to DOT 5? &nbsp;
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    <br>
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    Randall Reihing
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    1959 TR3A
   </div>
   <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
    <br>
   </div>&nbsp;
   <br>
   <hr style="display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
   <div dir="ltr" id="ox-739faab942-divRplyFwdMsg">
    <span style="font-size: 11pt; color: #000000; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><strong>From:</strong> Triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt; on behalf of Randall &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br> <strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, April 16, 2020 1:55 AM<br> <strong>To:</strong> 'Sujit Roy' &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; 'Triumphs' &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br> <strong>Subject:</strong> [EXTERNAL] Re: [TR] Brake fluids again</span>
    <div>
     &nbsp;
    </div>
   </div>
   <div class="ox-739faab942-BodyFragment">
    <div class="ox-739faab942-PlainText">
     All brake fluid is "synthetic" whether it says so on the can or not.&nbsp; It's 
     <br> not made from petroleum distillate. 
     <br> 
     <br> Yes, DOT 4 will absorb water, eat paint and so on.&nbsp; Castrol claims theirs 
     <br> absorbs slower than others (the "LMA"), but it still absorbs. 
     <br> 
     <br> DOT 5 is a completely different chemistry, a silicone oil rather than the 
     <br> glycols used in DOT 3, 4 and 5.1.&nbsp; It does not absorb water, eat paint, 
     <br> become corrosive over time, etc.&nbsp; 
     <br> 
     <br> Look for the word "silicone" on the label.&nbsp; DOT 5 must have it, the others 
     <br> cannot have it. 
     <br> 
     <br> The word "synthetic" is totally meaningless for brake fluid. 
     <br> 
     <br> FWIW, both of my Stags have DOT 5 in them. 
     <br> 
     <br> -- Randall 
     <br> 
     <br> &gt; I'm rebuild brakes and clutch with new seal on a Stag. I have 
     <br> &gt;&nbsp; this brake fluid 
     <br> &gt; 
     <br> &gt; 
     <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutch-castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$"> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bpnorthwest.com/fluid-brake-clutch-castrol-lma-12-__;!!LoBwcKfm!xQYsagVOFhpKFqJG0WkgFruEWat-p_lygSpuLlqbZWK-6UD6t-0Z-ZXm3e-xQY8OfVfao68$</a> 
     <br> &gt; oz.html&nbsp; 
     <br> &gt; 
     <br> &gt; which says DOT 4 synthetic&nbsp; (Castrol) . If it is synthetic, 
     <br> &gt; will it absorb water? 
     <br> &gt; 
     <br> &gt; I'm a bit confused as people are saying get DOT5. synthetic. 
     <br> &gt; Is the buzz word synthetic? 
     <br> 
     <br> ** [email-masked] ** 
     <br> 
     <br> Donate: 
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   </div>** [email-masked] ** 
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From: "Reihing, Randall S." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 15:47:43 +0000

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	boundary="_000_BL0PR01MB4434529805A97E4651C908F1ECD80BL0PR01MB4434prod_"

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Thank you Terry, Dave and Joe for your kind responses. The plan has now bec=
ome to convert to DOT 5 along with rebuilding the brake system. I have alre=
ady installed a new clutch slave cylinder and waiting for a few more parts =
from Moss. Hoping they will not be down much longer.

Randall Reihing
1959 TR3A
________________________________
From: TERRY SMITH <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 10:02 AM
To: Reihing, Randall S. <[email-masked]>; Randall <TR3driver@c=
a.rr.com>; Sujit Roy <[email-masked]>; Triumphs <[email-masked]=
.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] [EXTERNAL] Re: Brake fluids again

Making the switch without a complete flush doesn't harm anything.  With DOT=
 5 you will get improvements in brake/clutch line corrosion resistance, but=
 to maximize it you  might want to blow air through the drained lines to ge=
t as much of the old Dot 4 out as possible, since it will cling to the low =
spots in the lines after you drain the system.

I've run DOT 5 silicone ever since restoring my 3 in 2006.  Really glad I d=
id.
On April 16, 2020 at 8:33 AM "Reihing, Randall S." <Randall.Reihing@utoledo=
.edu> wrote:

Hello All,

Randall Reihing
1959 TR3A

-- Randall

comcast.net

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<html>
<head>
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Thank you Terry, Dave and Joe for your kind responses. The plan has now bec=
ome to convert to DOT 5 along with rebuilding the brake system. I have alre=
ady installed a new clutch slave cylinder and waiting for a few more parts =
from Moss. Hoping they will not
 be down much longer.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Randall Reihing</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
1959 TR3A</div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> TERRY SMITH &lt;terry=
[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2020 10:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Reihing, Randall S. &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Randall=
 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Sujit Roy &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Triu=
mphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] [EXTERNAL] Re: Brake fluids again</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12pt; font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
Making the switch without a complete flush doesn't harm anything.&nbsp; Wit=
h DOT 5 you will get improvements in brake/clutch line corrosion resistance=
, but to maximize it you&nbsp; might want to blow air through the drained l=
ines to get as much of the old Dot 4 out as
 possible, since it will cling to the low spots in the lines after you drai=
n the system.&nbsp;&nbsp;
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12pt; font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12pt; font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
I've run DOT 5 silicone ever since restoring my 3 in 2006.&nbsp; Really gla=
d I did.&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On April 16, 2020 at 8:33 AM &quot;Reihing, Randa=
ll S.&quot; &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
Hello All, </div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
Thank you Randall for this valuable and important clarification.&nbsp; </di=
v>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
I am in the process of replacing just the rotors, calipers and two of the f=
lexible brake lines to teh calipers. Can I drain out the existing DOT 4 and=
 switch to DOT 5?&nbsp;
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
Or do I need to completely flush the entire system and replace all the whee=
l cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch master and slave cylinder seals whe=
n converting from DOT 4 to DOT 5? &nbsp;
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
Randall Reihing </div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
1959 TR3A </div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:#000000">
<br>
</div>
&nbsp; <br>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"x_ox-739faab942-divRplyFwdMsg"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11pt; color:#000000; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><strong>From:</str=
ong> Triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt; on behalf of Randall =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, April 16, 2020 1:55 AM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> 'Sujit Roy' &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; 'Triumphs' =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> [EXTERNAL] Re: [TR] Brake fluids again</span>
<div>&nbsp; </div>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_ox-739faab942-BodyFragment">
<div class=3D"x_ox-739faab942-PlainText">All brake fluid is &quot;synthetic=
&quot; whether it says so on the can or not.&nbsp; It's
<br>
not made from petroleum distillate. <br>
<br>
Yes, DOT 4 will absorb water, eat paint and so on.&nbsp; Castrol claims the=
irs <br>
absorbs slower than others (the &quot;LMA&quot;), but it still absorbs. <br=
<br>
DOT 5 is a completely different chemistry, a silicone oil rather than the <=
br>
, <br>
it, the others <br>
cannot have it. <br>
The word &quot;synthetic&quot; is totally meaningless for brake fluid. <br>
FWIW, both of my Stags have DOT 5 in them. <br>
** [email-masked] ** <br>
** [email-masked] ** <br>
<br>
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive=
 <br>
<br>
comcast.net
<br>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"x_default-style" style=3D"font-size:12pt; font-family:helveti=
ca,arial,sans-serif; color:#333333">
<br>
&nbsp; </div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:29:14 -0700

This is a debate that has been going on for literally decades.  To be quite
honest, my own opinion has changed somewhat over those decades.

You certainly can convert by just draining, refilling with DOT 5, and
bleeding each corner until you get clean purple fluid.  Although the two
fluids will not mix (kind of like oil and water), they are fully compatible
and can co-exist peacefully in the same system.  And the result, IMO, will
certainly be better than not converting at all.  I've done it myself several
times and always been happy with the result, at least at first.

But, there are two drawbacks that I see to this approach.  One is that there
are little pockets of DOT 3 or 4 that remain in the system and continue to
do what DOT 3/4 does, ie absorb water, deteriorate, and become corrosive.
It also retains it's lower boiling point (which continues to go down with
time).  If you read through the Holbrook paper, they had a test failure (a
73 MB 200) that lost it's brakes during the test, and they attributed that
failure to having only 4% of conventional brake fluid still in the system.
They retested the same car after "properly" converting to DOT 5 (which
presumably means removing that last 4%) and got better results.  

The other is that sometimes, not often and certainly not always, I have seen
sudden failures with "rubber" components that were used for a long time with
DOT 3/4 and are now exposed to DOT 5.  You can certainly argue that they
were old and about to fail anyway; but old seals generally just get hard and
don't seal as well (slow leaks).  They don't turn soft and tear, suddenly
rendering them useless.  

Just for an example of what I'm talking about, I converted Stag #1 to DOT 5
shortly after buying it, by just bleeding through.  Worked great at first,
but months later the brake pedal started sometimes slowly sinking to the
floor at a stop light.  At that time, I didn't want to rebuild the MC
myself, so I made an appointment with a shop in Pomona that was supposedly
familiar with Stags.  On the way to Pomona, within just a few miles of each
other, both cups in the MC failed in the same exact fashion.  They turned as
soft as Gummi Bears, and tore through the base of the seal.  This is not
normal seal wear!

So, my current opinion is that, if the choice is just to "bleed through" or
not convert, it's certainly better to bleed through.  But what John Deere
(my former employer) calls "best practice" is to clean the hard lines and
replace all the seals and hoses with new.  The result is more likely to give
you decades of service with no further problems.

As a side note, DOT 5 also gives a very slightly softer pedal than DOT 3/4
does.  You can compensate for this effect by converting the soft lines to
the "braided SS" lines, which use a much harder tube inside and hence don't
swell as much under pressure.  I got the ones for my TR3 at Tsi in Ohio; the
Stag lines came from Rimmers.  ISTR Ted later told me that they can make
them up for Stags as well.

-- Randall

>  Can I 
> drain out the existing DOT 4 and switch to DOT 5? 
> 
> Or do I need to completely flush the entire system and 
> replace all the wheel cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch 
> master and slave cylinder seals when converting from DOT 4 to DOT 5?  
>

---

From: Don Hiscock <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 14:06:46 -0500

--===============8557714372317505712==

--000000000000fec36b05a36d22fa

Randall (and others), any experience with a solvent flush prior to bleeding
in the DOT5?  ISTR an isopropyl alcohol flush can do a better job of
evacuating residual DOT3 than a wet switch.  Makes sense, but I have no
hard data.

I'm in the process of planning for DOT3 to DOT5 conversion on my car, and
I'm leaning toward leaving the existing rubber seals in place.  If there
are ways to do this that are better than others, it would be good to know.

Don

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:36 PM Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>

--000000000000fec36b05a36d22fa
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Randall (and others), any experience with a solvent flush =
prior to bleeding in the DOT5?=C2=A0 ISTR an isopropyl alcohol flush can do=
 a better job of evacuating residual DOT3 than a wet switch.=C2=A0 Makes se=
nse, but I have no hard data.<div><br></div><div>I&#39;m in the process of =
planning for DOT3 to DOT5 conversion on my car, and I&#39;m leaning toward =
leaving the existing=C2=A0rubber seals in place.=C2=A0 If there are ways to=
 do this that are better than others, it would be good to know.</div><div><=
br></div><div>Don</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:36 PM Randall &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">This is a debate that ha=
s been going on for literally decades.=C2=A0 To be quite<br>
honest, my own opinion has changed somewhat over those decades.<br>
<br>
You certainly can convert by just draining, refilling with DOT 5, and<br>
bleeding each corner until you get clean purple fluid.=C2=A0 Although the t=
wo<br>
fluids will not mix (kind of like oil and water), they are fully compatible=
<br>
and can co-exist peacefully in the same system.=C2=A0 And the result, IMO, =
will<br>
certainly be better than not converting at all.=C2=A0 I&#39;ve done it myse=
lf several<br>
times and always been happy with the result, at least at first.<br>
<br>
But, there are two drawbacks that I see to this approach.=C2=A0 One is that=
 there<br>
are little pockets of DOT 3 or 4 that remain in the system and continue to<=
br>
do what DOT 3/4 does, ie absorb water, deteriorate, and become corrosive.<b=
r>
It also retains it&#39;s lower boiling point (which continues to go down wi=
th<br>
time).=C2=A0 If you read through the Holbrook paper, they had a test failur=
e (a<br>
73 MB 200) that lost it&#39;s brakes during the test, and they attributed t=
hat<br>
failure to having only 4% of conventional brake fluid still in the system.<=
br>
They retested the same car after &quot;properly&quot; converting to DOT 5 (=
which<br>
presumably means removing that last 4%) and got better results.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
The other is that sometimes, not often and certainly not always, I have see=
n<br>
sudden failures with &quot;rubber&quot; components that were used for a lon=
g time with<br>
DOT 3/4 and are now exposed to DOT 5.=C2=A0 You can certainly argue that th=
ey<br>
were old and about to fail anyway; but old seals generally just get hard an=
d<br>
don&#39;t seal as well (slow leaks).=C2=A0 They don&#39;t turn soft and tea=
r, suddenly<br>
rendering them useless.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Just for an example of what I&#39;m talking about, I converted Stag #1 to D=
OT 5<br>
shortly after buying it, by just bleeding through.=C2=A0 Worked great at fi=
rst,<br>
but months later the brake pedal started sometimes slowly sinking to the<br=
floor at a stop light.=C2=A0 At that time, I didn&#39;t want to rebuild the=
 MC<br>
myself, so I made an appointment with a shop in Pomona that was supposedly<=
br>
familiar with Stags.=C2=A0 On the way to Pomona, within just a few miles of=
 each<br>
other, both cups in the MC failed in the same exact fashion.=C2=A0 They tur=
ned as<br>
soft as Gummi Bears, and tore through the base of the seal.=C2=A0 This is n=
ot<br>
normal seal wear!<br>
<br>
So, my current opinion is that, if the choice is just to &quot;bleed throug=
h&quot; or<br>
not convert, it&#39;s certainly better to bleed through.=C2=A0 But what Joh=
n Deere<br>
(my former employer) calls &quot;best practice&quot; is to clean the hard l=
ines and<br>
replace all the seals and hoses with new.=C2=A0 The result is more likely t=
o give<br>
you decades of service with no further problems.<br>
<br>
As a side note, DOT 5 also gives a very slightly softer pedal than DOT 3/4<=
br>
does.=C2=A0 You can compensate for this effect by converting the soft lines=
 to<br>
the &quot;braided SS&quot; lines, which use a much harder tube inside and h=
ence don&#39;t<br>
swell as much under pressure.=C2=A0 I got the ones for my TR3 at Tsi in Ohi=
o; the<br>
Stag lines came from Rimmers.=C2=A0 ISTR Ted later told me that they can ma=
ke<br>
them up for Stags as well.<br>
<br>
-- Randall<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 Can I <br>
&gt; drain out the existing DOT 4 and switch to DOT 5? <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Or do I need to completely flush the entire system and <br>
&gt; replace all the wheel cylinder, master cylinder, and clutch <br>
&gt; master and slave cylinder seals when converting from DOT 4 to DOT 5?=
=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@au=
tox.team.net</a> **<br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>=C2=A0 <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
hs/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox=
.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:23:41 -0700

Supposedly, methanol (methyl alcohol, also known as wood alcohol) is safer
for brake components than isopropyl.  I used methanol on my previous TR3A,
back around 1985 or so, and it did seem to get all the old fluid out.

My concern was (and is) then getting all of the methanol (or isopropanol)
out of the system before buttoning it up and adding brake fluid.  The
alcohol obviously has a much lower boiling point than brake fluid, and if it
does boil, you lose your brakes.  Of course you can blow the lines out with
air, but shop air often has a very high moisture content and you risk
winding up with water in the lines.  Dot 3/4 will absorb the water of
course, but one of the shortcomings of DOT 5 is that it will not combine
with water.  And the air compressor I had then would literally spit water
when using an air gun.  So instead, I used "canned air" as normally used for
cleaning PC boards and such.  
Eg https://amzn.com/B07QJY6MKD
(It's actually a kind of refrigerant, not air, but is moisture-free and acts
like air.)

Not really hard data, but that's what I've got.  BTW, the TR3A did continue
to have brake failures over the next few years, until eventually all the
seals and hoses had been changed.  The hose to the rear axle collapsed
internally, forming a check valve that made the rear brakes drag and smoke.

It then went a decade or more with no further hydraulic problems (before
getting rear ended and junked).

Also BTW, my local drug store actually carried methanol then, but I had to
ask the pharmacist for it and explain why I wanted it.  It's toxic to
humans, and they wanted to be certain I wasn't going to use it on myself.

-- Randall 

> 
> Randall (and others), any experience with a solvent flush 
> prior to bleeding in the DOT5?  ISTR an isopropyl alcohol 
> flush can do a better job of evacuating residual DOT3 than a 
> wet switch.  Makes sense, but I have no hard data.
> 
> I'm in the process of planning for DOT3 to DOT5 conversion on 
> my car, and I'm leaning toward leaving the existing rubber 
> seals in place.  If there are ways to do this that are better 
> than others, it would be good to know.
>