Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales of E15 Gasoline

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:05:47 -0700

> EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.  What is that 
> going to do to our cars?

Not much, especially if you don't put it in the tank.

Seems like a sales opportunity to me, though.  Find (or have made) some carb
needles that are better calibrated to E15 and the world will beat a path to
your door.

-- Randall 
56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
71 Stag LE1473 - awaiting engine rebuild
71-2-3 Stag - awaiting gearbox rebuild 

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

---

From: Greg Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 22:24:52 +0200

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I will get the Dremel out and see what I can come up with, just take a
little of the needle to allow more fual and compensate for lower energy
content, right??  Of course may write up will say "digitally (read
"fingers") developed and manufactured to the finest tolerances by Craftsmen
with a lifetime of experience in British engineering (read "fiddling about
with MGs and Triumphs and stuff until they start and idle reasonably
reliable") these special needles will improve the performance of your
Triumph over a broad range of....."

Regards,

Greg Lemon
TR250

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 10:10 PM Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">I will get the Dremel out and see what I can come up with=
, just take a little of the needle to allow more fual and compensate for lo=
wer energy content, right??=C2=A0 Of course may write up will say &quot;dig=
itally (read &quot;fingers&quot;) developed and manufactured to the finest =
tolerances by Craftsmen with a lifetime of experience in British engineerin=
g (read &quot;fiddling about with MGs and Triumphs and stuff until they sta=
rt and idle reasonably reliable&quot;) these special needles will improve t=
he performance of your Triumph over a broad range of.....&quot;<div dir=3D"=
auto"><br><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Greg Lemon</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
TR250</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 10:10 PM Randall &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.=C2=A0 What is that <br>
&gt; going to do to our cars?<br>
<br>
Not much, especially if you don&#39;t put it in the tank.<br>
<br>
Seems like a sales opportunity to me, though.=C2=A0 Find (or have made) som=
e carb<br>
needles that are better calibrated to E15 and the world will beat a path to=
<br>
your door.<br>
<br>
-- Randall <br>
56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver<br>
71 Stag LE1473 - awaiting engine rebuild<br>
71-2-3 Stag - awaiting gearbox rebuild <br>
<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer">[email-masked]</a> **<br>
<br>
errer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs" rel=3D"noreferr=
er noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>=
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
hs/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
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</blockquote></div>

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:57:42 -0700

Perhaps I should mention, there is nothing about changing the E15 warning
label, which says to only use E15 in 2001 and newer vehicles.  Since the
last Triumph was some 20 years before that, even the EPA does not recommend
using it in Triumphs.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/EPA_E15_warning_label.jp
g

Personally, I think having more choice is a Good Thing, even if the choices
are not things I want to choose.  AFAIK, the state of California does not
allow E15 here (yet), but I've pulled up to lots of gas pumps in other parts
of the country where the button for E15 is right next to the one for E85.
Didn't hurt me or my car a bit! (Since I didn't push either one of them.)

> I will get the Dremel out and see what I can come up with, 
> just take a little of the needle to allow more fual and 
> compensate for lower energy content, right??  

Those brass needles are really soft; I would suggest a fine tooth file and a
light touch rather than a Dremel.  I haven't worked out how big the flat
should be, but it won't take much.  You're only looking for something like
5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, depending on whose numbers you believe).

Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place.

-- Randall

---

From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 15:58:38 -0600

> Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place.
The calculation is .85 x 115.5 + .15 x 76.0/115.5 = 0.94874, nominally - 
5.125%.  But, there are other considerations.  The latent heat of 
evaporation of alcohol is pretty high, so the flame front will propagate 
a bit more slowly, which means the advance can be raised slightly.  And, 
since the octane rating for ethanol is 110, the compression ratio can be 
raised slightly with no ill effect.  Both of those effects translate to 
slightly better mileage, or at least mitigate the loss in fuel value.  
The octane increase is not insubstantial.  If the gasoline in the blend 
is 87 octane, the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.

Anyone operating at altitudes well above sea level will probably see a 
slight improvement in performance, because of an oxygen atom in the 
alcohol molecule, presuming that all else is right with the engine 
(i.e., mixture correct and timing adjusted for altitude).

The bugaboo, I suppose, is that some people may still have rubber hoses 
installed that aren't alcohol-proof, and that's something that would 
have to be corrected.  Buna-n (nitrile) will work, but with shorter 
life, but neoprene or SBR (styrene-butadiene rubber) would have good 
resistance to alcohol and are readily available. Anyone contemplating 
replacement of rubber hoses with braided stainless steel w/Teflon liners 
should avoid that.  Nylon or XLPE liners are fine.

But, in general, go easy on needle mods.  For SUs and Strombergs, simple 
mixture enrichment and a little fiddling with the advance may get one 
most of the way there.  Plug cuts will tell the tale.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 17:07:03 -0700

>   If the gasoline in the blend is 87 octane, 
> the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.

Seems like a big IF to me.  More likely, they'll use a lower (cheaper) cut
of gasoline, so the overall octane will remain much the same.  The E15 pumps
I've seen are still posted at around 87 octane.

-- Randall

tox.team.net

---

From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 18:19:12 -0600

> I've seen are still posted at around 87 octane.
Very possible.  I don't think we have any around here (although there 
are a few around with "ethanol added," probably at rates of 8-10%, and, 
yeah, those are not uniformly rated at higher octane), so I can only 
guess at E15.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 01:15:10 +0000 (UTC)

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 I would have thought you can get +\- 5% changes just in the adjustments av=
ailable.
The other consideration is what does the alcohol do the the rubber parts in=
 the fuel system.=C2=A0 Here in the Midwest we have had 5% alcohol in our g=
as for decades.=C2=A0 Both my cars suffered fuel pump failures when the pum=
p diaphragm=C2=A0 went all stiff and cardboardy on me.=C2=A0 I fitted an el=
ectric pump to the TR6 and a rebuild kit in the TR3 is still working just f=
ine.=C2=A0 Replacing all the fuel hoses is a good idea, too.
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
To: Randall <[email-masked]>; 'Greg Lemon' <[email-masked]>
Cc: triumphs <[email-masked]>; 'Pete Arakelian' <Arakelianp@mossmo=
tors.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 6, 2019 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales =
of E15 Gasoline

On 6/6/2019 2:57 PM, Randall wrote:
>
> Those brass needles are really soft; I would suggest a fine tooth file an=
d a
> light touch rather than a Dremel.=C2=A0 I haven't worked out how big the =
flat
> should be, but it won't take much.=C2=A0 You're only looking for somethin=
g like
> Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place.
The calculation is .85 x 115.5 + .15 x 76.0/115.5 =3D 0.94874, nominally -=
=20
5.125%.=C2=A0 But, there are other considerations.=C2=A0 The latent heat of=
=20
evaporation of alcohol is pretty high, so the flame front will propagate=20
a bit more slowly, which means the advance can be raised slightly.=C2=A0 An=
d,=20
since the octane rating for ethanol is 110, the compression ratio can be=20
raised slightly with no ill effect.=C2=A0 Both of those effects translate t=
o=20
slightly better mileage, or at least mitigate the loss in fuel value.=C2=A0=
=20
The octane increase is not insubstantial.=C2=A0 If the gasoline in the blen=
d=20
is 87 octane, the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.

Anyone operating at altitudes well above sea level will probably see a=20
slight improvement in performance, because of an oxygen atom in the=20
alcohol molecule, presuming that all else is right with the engine=20
(i.e., mixture correct and timing adjusted for altitude).

The bugaboo, I suppose, is that some people may still have rubber hoses=20
installed that aren't alcohol-proof, and that's something that would=20
have to be corrected.=C2=A0 Buna-n (nitrile) will work, but with shorter=20
life, but neoprene or SBR (styrene-butadiene rubber) would have good=20
resistance to alcohol and are readily available. Anyone contemplating=20
replacement of rubber hoses with braided stainless steel w/Teflon liners=20
should avoid that.=C2=A0 Nylon or XLPE liners are fine.

But, in general, go easy on needle mods.=C2=A0 For SUs and Strombergs, simp=
le=20
mixture enrichment and a little fiddling with the advance may get one=20
most of the way there.=C2=A0 Plug cuts will tell the tale.

Cheers.

--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance=
....

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<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">I would have thought you can get +\- 5% changes just=
 in the adjustments available.</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>

<div><font size=3D"3">The other consideration is what does the alcohol do t=
he the rubber parts in the fuel system.&nbsp; Here in the Midwest we have h=
ad 5% alcohol in our gas for decades.&nbsp; Both my cars suffered fuel pump=
 failures when the pump diaphragm&nbsp; went all stiff and cardboardy on me=
.&nbsp; I fitted an electric pump to the TR6 and a rebuild kit in the TR3 i=
s still working just fine.&nbsp; Replacing all the fuel hoses is a good ide=
a, too.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: Michael Porter &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Randall &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; 'Greg Lemon' &lt;[email-masked]&=
gt;<br>
Cc: triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; 'Pete Arakelian' &lt;Arakelia=
[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Thu, Jun 6, 2019 4:59 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales =
of E15 Gasoline<br>
<br>

<div dir=3D"ltr">On 6/6/2019 2:57 PM, Randall wrote:<br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Those brass needles are really soft; I would sugges=
t a fine tooth file and a<br clear=3D"none">&gt; light touch rather than a =
Dremel.&nbsp; I haven't worked out how big the flat<br clear=3D"none">&gt; =
should be, but it won't take much.&nbsp; You're only looking for something =
like<br clear=3D"none">&gt; 5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, depending on whose n=
umbers you believe).<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Again as=
suming you want to run E15 in the first place.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br cl=
ear=3D"none">The calculation is .85 x 115.5 + .15 x 76.0/115.5 =3D 0.94874,=
 nominally - <br clear=3D"none">5.125%.&nbsp; But, there are other consider=
ations.&nbsp; The latent heat of <br clear=3D"none">evaporation of alcohol =
is pretty high, so the flame front will propagate <br clear=3D"none">a bit =
more slowly, which means the advance can be raised slightly.&nbsp; And, <br=
 clear=3D"none">since the octane rating for ethanol is 110, the compression=
 ratio can be <br clear=3D"none">raised slightly with no ill effect.&nbsp; =
Both of those effects translate to <br clear=3D"none">slightly better milea=
ge, or at least mitigate the loss in fuel value.&nbsp; <br clear=3D"none">T=
he octane increase is not insubstantial.&nbsp; If the gasoline in the blend=
 <br clear=3D"none">is 87 octane, the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.=
<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Anyone operating at altitudes well ab=
ove sea level will probably see a <br clear=3D"none">slight improvement in =
performance, because of an oxygen atom in the <br clear=3D"none">alcohol mo=
lecule, presuming that all else is right with the engine <br clear=3D"none"=
>(i.e., mixture correct and timing adjusted for altitude).<br clear=3D"none=
"><br clear=3D"none">The bugaboo, I suppose, is that some people may still =
have rubber hoses <br clear=3D"none">installed that aren't alcohol-proof, a=
nd that's something that would <br clear=3D"none">have to be corrected.&nbs=
p; Buna-n (nitrile) will work, but with shorter <br clear=3D"none">life, bu=
t neoprene or SBR (styrene-butadiene rubber) would have good <br clear=3D"n=
one">resistance to alcohol and are readily available. Anyone contemplating =
<br clear=3D"none">replacement of rubber hoses with braided stainless steel=
 w/Teflon liners <br clear=3D"none">should avoid that.&nbsp; Nylon or XLPE =
liners are fine.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">But, in general, go e=
asy on needle mods.&nbsp; For SUs and Strombergs, simple <br clear=3D"none"=
>mixture enrichment and a little fiddling with the advance may get one <br =
clear=3D"none">most of the way there.&nbsp; Plug cuts will tell the tale.<b=
r clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Cheers.<br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none">-- <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">Michael Porter<br clear=3D"none">Roswell, NM<br clear=3D"none"><b=
r clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Never let anyone drive you crazy when y=
ou know it's within walking distance....
<div class=3D"yqt3748769791" id=3D"yqtfd90501"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 20:10:33 -0700

> I would have thought you can get +\- 5% changes just in the 
> adjustments available.

A stock TR250 lacks mixture adjustment at all; the later TR6 carbs have only
a very limited range of adjustment.  And it mostly affects idle, the effect
on open throttle is even less.

> The other consideration is what does the alcohol do the the 
> rubber parts in the fuel system. 

Agreed, but E15 isn't going to be any worse in that respect than E10; which
is already available everywhere, year round.

> Replacing all the fuel hoses is a good idea, too.

Good idea anyway, if they haven't been done in the past decade or two.  The
original type hoses are only good for 10-20 years, even without ethanol in
the fuel.

But anything sold in the US as "fuel line" in the past 20 years or so should
be ethanol-resistant.

-- Randall