Subject: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales of E15 Gasoline

From: Pete Arakelian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 20:04:08 +0000

--===============3885178918602870274==
Content-Language: en-US
	boundary="_000_CO2PR05MB2423D14594266C3A6DC50715A9170CO2PR05MB2423namp_"

--_000_CO2PR05MB2423D14594266C3A6DC50715A9170CO2PR05MB2423namp_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2019/23/us-epa-finalizes-rulemaking-to-perm=
it-year-round-sales-of-e15-gasoline?utm_source=3DET&utm_medium=3Demail&utm_=
content=3D251663&utm_campaign=3DeNews3.5

EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.  What is that going to do to our=
 cars?

Peter Arakelian - '71 TR6

--_000_CO2PR05MB2423D14594266C3A6DC50715A9170CO2PR05MB2423namp_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr=
osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:=
//www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
	{font-family:"Cambria Math";
	panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Calibri;
	panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	color:#0563C1;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	color:#954F72;
	text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char";
	margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
	{mso-style-name:msonormal;
	mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
	margin-right:0in;
	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
	margin-left:0in;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.PlainTextChar
	{mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char";
	mso-style-priority:99;
	mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.EmailStyle20
	{mso-style-type:personal-compose;}
.MsoChpDefault
	{mso-style-type:export-only;
	font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
	margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
	{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2019/2=
3/us-epa-finalizes-rulemaking-to-permit-year-round-sales-of-e15-gasoline?ut=
m_source=3DET&amp;utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_content=3D251663&amp;utm_campa=
ign=3DeNews3.5">https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2019/23/us-epa-finalizes-ru=
lemaking-to-permit-year-round-sales-of-e15-gasoline?utm_source=3DET&amp;utm=
_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_content=3D251663&amp;utm_campaign=3DeNews3.5</a><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.&nbsp; =
What is that going to do to our cars?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Peter Arakelian &#8211; &#8217;71 TR6<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CO2PR05MB2423D14594266C3A6DC50715A9170CO2PR05MB2423namp_--

--===============3885178918602870274==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

--===============3885178918602870274==--

---

From: Anthony Rhodes <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 16:32:07 -0400

I worked on this for my TR4A with stock engine and everything.   

I forget the details but as I recall the mixture needed to be a bit richer.  Again, as I recall, pure ethanol needs to be quite rich compared to pure gasoline.  
I then computed the added mixture for E10.  Then I calculated the open area of the stock needle in the jet.  I made a first approximation that the mixture is directly proportional to the open area between the needle and the jet.  

So I needed to calculate a smaller diameter such that the area was the correct proportion larger.  I then did that for each of the "stations" on the needle specification.   

I then used an excel spreadsheet that can search for the closest overall match for the hypothetical needle profile.  As I vaguely recall it was RL.  I'd have to check on that.  

I put that needle in the carbs and it runs fine and a wide band oxygen sensor up the tail pipe said the mixture was quite reasonable throughout the full power range

-Tony

Sent from my 1837 Babbage Analytical Engine

> On Jun 7, 2019, at 2:00 PM, [email-masked] wrote:
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:05:47 -0700
> From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
> To: "'Pete Arakelian'" <[email-masked]>,
>    <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
>    Sales of E15 Gasoline
> Message-ID: <02CFBDF94A114C64BBA34ABFF7FB0EFB@RYPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 
>> EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.  What is that 
>> going to do to our cars?
> 
> Not much, especially if you don't put it in the tank.
> 
> Seems like a sales opportunity to me, though.  Find (or have made) some carb
> needles that are better calibrated to E15 and the world will beat a path to
> your door.

---

From: Anthony Rhodes <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 16:40:24 -0400

Even a file is too aggressive and can't possibly get it round enough

Ideally it would be in a lathe but that is really hard to do

The best way to do it by hand is to chuck it into a drill press and spin it. Then use fine sandpaper and remove brass in the desired area very gently.  A thousandth of an inch makes a big difference!  You are likely looking for around 0.005" removal.  

I suspect that the mixture is a non-linear function of open cross section area. As the space between the needle and the jet gets wider, I bet the flow gets a lot easier.  There could easily be issues of turbulent flow vs laminar flow as the walls get further apart.  

Nevertheless my first approximation assuming a linear function resulted in a needle selection that seemed quite good for my engine. 

-Tony

> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:57:42 -0700
> To: "'Greg Lemon'" <[email-masked]>
> Cc: <[email-masked]>, "'Pete Arakelian'"
>    <[email-masked]>
> Message-ID: <A977DEC0BB084269B41EE85B61224458@RYPC>
> Those brass needles are really soft; I would suggest a fine tooth file and a
> light touch rather than a Dremel.  I haven't worked out how big the flat
> should be, but it won't take much.  You're only looking for something like
> 5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, depending on whose numbers you believe).
> 
> Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place.
> 
> -- Randall

---

From: Randall <[email-masked]> 6qlNGV62XFARtSvv8TKaEKk10SotnSC9eNl7NZDVoOWYZ1ioWs2cJBt+DG+IynvnqFecQXPHYGXOmWbjLRCnqH05VPKkM69jRFI=
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 13:53:12 -0700

--===============1409617958454583705==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

------L1NFT3BZ4QCF9QO9KC9962JK8NM0LU
 charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Why would it have to be round?

Sure, there are boundary effects and such, but the fuel velocity in the je=
t is low, reasonably constant, and the same as before=2E  I would expect th=
e side effects to be reasonably small=2E A 5% increase in effective opening=
 should get pretty close to 5% more fuel, even if the opening is no longer =
a ring??
-- Randall

On 7 June 2019 13:40:24 GMT-07:00, Anthony Rhodes <spamiam@comcast=2Enet> =
wrote:
>The best way to do it by hand is to chuck it into a drill press and
>spin it=2E Then use fine sandpaper and remove brass in the desired area
>very gently=2E  A thousandth of an inch makes a big difference!  You are
>likely looking for around 0=2E005" removal=2E =20
>
>I suspect that the mixture is a non-linear function of open cross
>section area=2E As the space between the needle and the jet gets wider, I
>bet the flow gets a lot easier=2E  There could easily be issues of
>turbulent flow vs laminar flow as the walls get further apart=2E =20
>
>Nevertheless my first approximation assuming a linear function resulted
>in a needle selection that seemed quite good for my engine=2E=20
>
>-Tony
>
>> On Jun 7, 2019, at 2:00 PM, triumphs-request@autox=2Eteam=2Enet wrote:
>>=20
>> Message: 4
>> From: "Randall" <TR3driver@ca=2Err=2Ecom>
>> To: "'Greg Lemon'" <grglmn@gmail=2Ecom>
>> Cc: <triumphs@autox=2Eteam=2Enet>, "'Pete Arakelian'"
>>    <Arakelianp@mossmotors=2Ecom>
>> Subject: Re: [TR] U=2ES=2E EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Roun=
d
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=3D"us-ascii"
>>=20
>>=20
>> light touch rather than a Dremel=2E  I haven't worked out how big the
>flat
>> should be, but it won't take much=2E  You're only looking for something
>like
>> 5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, depending on whose numbers you believe)=2E
>>=20
>> Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place=2E
>>=20
>> -- Randall
>
>** triumphs@autox=2Eteam=2Enet **
>
>Donate: http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/donate=2Ehtml
>Archive: http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/pipermail/triumphs=20
>http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/archive
>
>Unsubscribe/Manage:
>http://autox=2Eteam=2Enet/mailman/options/triumphs/tr3driver@ca=2Err=2Eco=
m

------L1NFT3BZ4QCF9QO9KC9962JK8NM0LU
 charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body>Why would it have to be round?<br><br>Sure, there =
are boundary effects and such, but the fuel velocity in the jet is low, rea=
sonably constant, and the same as before=2E  I would expect the side effect=
s to be reasonably small=2E A 5% increase in effective opening should get p=
retty close to 5% more fuel, even if the opening is no longer a ring??<br>-=
- Randall<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 7 June 2019 13:40:24 GMT-07:=
00, Anthony Rhodes &lt;spamiam@comcast=2Enet&gt; wrote:<blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre class=3D"k9mail">Even a file is too aggressive and can't possibly get=
 it round enough<br><br>Ideally it would be in a lathe but that is really h=
ard to do<br><br>The best way to do it by hand is to chuck it into a drill =
press and spin it=2E Then use fine sandpaper and remove brass in the desire=
d area very gently=2E  A thousandth of an inch makes a big difference!  You=
 are likely looking for around 0=2E005" removal=2E  <br><br>I suspect that =
the mixture is a non-linear function of open cross section area=2E As the s=
pace between the needle and the jet gets wider, I bet the flow gets a lot e=
asier=2E  There could easily be issues of turbulent flow vs laminar flow as=
 the walls get further apart=2E  <br><br>Nevertheless my first approximatio=
n assuming a linear function resulted in a needle selection that seemed qui=
te good for my engine=2E <br><br>-Tony<br><br>Sent from my 1837 Babbage Ana=
lytical Engine<br><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0p=
t 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">On J=
un 7, 2019, at 2:00 PM, triumphs-request@autox=2Eteam=2Enet wrote:<br><br>M=
essage: 4<br>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:57:42 -0700<br>From: "Randall" &lt;TR=
3driver@ca=2Err=2Ecom&gt;<br>To: "'Greg Lemon'" &lt;grglmn@gmail=2Ecom&gt;<=
br>Cc: &lt;triumphs@autox=2Eteam=2Enet&gt;, "'Pete Arakelian'"<br>   &lt;Ar=
akelianp@mossmotors=2Ecom&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [TR] U=2ES=2E EPA Finalizes R=
ulemaking to Permit Year-Round<br>   Sales of E15 Gasoline<br>Message-ID: &=
lt;A977DEC0BB084269B41EE85B61224458@RYPC&gt;<br>Content-Type: text/plain;  =
  charset=3D"us-ascii"<br><br><br>Those brass needles are really soft; I wo=
uld suggest a fine tooth file and a<br>light touch rather than a Dremel=2E =
 I haven't worked out how big the flat<br>should be, but it won't take much=
=2E  You're only looking for something like<br>5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, d=
epending on whose numbers you believe)=2E<br><br>Again assuming you want to=
 run E15 in the first place=2E<br><br>-- Randall<br></blockquote><br>** tri=
umphs@autox=2Eteam=2Enet **<br><br>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www=2Eteam=2En=
et/donate=2Ehtml">http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/donate=2Ehtml</a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/pipermail/triumphs">http://www=2Eteam=2Enet=
/pipermail/triumphs</a>  <a href=3D"http://www=2Eteam=2Enet/archive">http:/=
/www=2Eteam=2Enet/archive</a><br><br>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D"http://=
autox=2Eteam=2Enet/mailman/options/triumphs/tr3driver@ca=2Err=2Ecom">http:/=
/autox=2Eteam=2Enet/mailman/options/triumphs/tr3driver@ca=2Err=2Ecom</a><br=
></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>
------L1NFT3BZ4QCF9QO9KC9962JK8NM0LU--

--===============1409617958454583705==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============1409617958454583705==--