Subject: Re: [TR] TR4 Starter question

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 12:20:29 +0000 (UTC)

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 My guess is the hum is the rubber coupling in the starter pawl is slipping=
.=C2=A0 Time for rebuild.
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Henningsen <[email-masked]>
To: 'triumphs' <[email-masked]>
Sent: Mon, Jan 21, 2019 8:31 pm
Subject: [TR] TR4 Starter question

I know my starter needs some attention, but curious what the specific issue
is before deciding to rebuild it or put in a new gear reduction unit.=C2=A0=
 1962
TR4 CT 5212LO.=C2=A0 When I turn the key it cranks for a bit and then makes=
 a hum
and stops cranking.=C2=A0 Turn key off and try again and same.=C2=A0 I can =
get it to
start each time but something is wrong.=C2=A0 Any thoughts on what is going=
 on?
Anyone have luck with local starter shops rebuilding.=C2=A0 Can't imagine t=
here
are too many parts available to them for these units.=C2=A0=20
Thanks,
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL=20
61 TR3A
62 TR4
75 TR6
82 CJ8

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<font color='black' size='3' face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>
<div> <font size="3">My guess is the hum is the rubber coupling in the starter pawl is slipping.&nbsp; Time for rebuild.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jim Henningsen &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: 'triumphs' &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Mon, Jan 21, 2019 8:31 pm<br>
Subject: [TR] TR4 Starter question<br>
<br>

<div dir="ltr">I know my starter needs some attention, but curious what the specific issue<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">is before deciding to rebuild it or put in a new gear reduction unit.&nbsp; 1962<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">TR4 CT 5212LO.&nbsp; When I turn the key it cranks for a bit and then makes a hum<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">and stops cranking.&nbsp; Turn key off and try again and same.&nbsp; I can get it to<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">start each time but something is wrong.&nbsp; Any thoughts on what is going on?<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">Anyone have luck with local starter shops rebuilding.&nbsp; Can't imagine there<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">are too many parts available to them for these units.&nbsp; <br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">Thanks,<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">Jim Henningsen<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">Ocala FL <br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">61 TR3A<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">62 TR4<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">75 TR6<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr">82 CJ8<br>
</div>

<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</font>
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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 09:31:28 -0600

Except that the rubber coupling was eliminated during the TR3A; a TR4
shouldn't have one.

But you bring up a very good point.  The TR4 still uses a Bendix, which
automatically disengages the starter when the engine fires.  If the engine
fires once but doesn't start, the starter is disengaged and wont engage
again until you let off the key (or button on a TR3) and let it stop
spinning.

Perhaps what Jim is hearing is the hum of the starter motor spinning
uselessly after the Bendix has kicked out.

In that case, he needs a tune-up rather than a starter rebuild.  It's just
the nature of the beast.  Eliminating that "feature" was one of the best
benefits from going to a gear drive starter IMO.  (The gear drive starters
use a solenoid and an overrunning clutch rather than a Bendix, so if the
engine fires but doesn't start, they just go back to cranking.)

-- Randall

> My guess is the hum is the rubber coupling in the starter 
> pawl is slipping.  Time for rebuild.
>

---

From: James Henningsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 10:42:17 -0500

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Thanks everyone.  That sounds like what it is doing.  It cracks and then =E2=
=80=98slips=E2=80=99 / ships cranking and goes hum.  I=E2=80=99ll pull it an=
d see if my local starter alternator repair place can rebuild.  Would prefer=
 to keep original for now.   Jim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 7:20 AM, DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
.  Time for rebuild.
> I know my starter needs some attention, but curious what the specific issu=
e
> is before deciding to rebuild it or put in a new gear reduction unit.  196=
2
> TR4 CT 5212LO.  When I turn the key it cranks for a bit and then makes a h=
um
> and stops cranking.  Turn key off and try again and same.  I can get it to=

> start each time but something is wrong.  Any thoughts on what is going on?=

> Anyone have luck with local starter shops rebuilding.  Can't imagine there=

> are too many parts available to them for these units. =20
> Thanks,
> Jim Henningsen
> Ocala FL=20
> 61 TR3A
> 62 TR4
> 75 TR6
> 82 CJ8
>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Thanks everyone. &nbsp;That sounds like wha=
t it is doing. &nbsp;It cracks and then =E2=80=98slips=E2=80=99 / ships cran=
king and goes hum. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99ll pull it and see if my local starter al=
ternator repair place can rebuild. &nbsp;Would prefer to keep original for n=
ow. &nbsp; Jim<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature" dir=3D"ltr">Sent from m=
y iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Jan 22, 2019, at 7:20 AM, DAVID MASSEY=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"blac=
k" size=3D"3" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<div> <font size=3D"3">My guess is the hum is the rubber coupling in the sta=
rter pawl is slipping.&nbsp; Time for rebuild.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----O=
riginal Message-----<br>
From: Jim Henningsen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">trguy75@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
To: 'triumphs' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Triumphs@autox=
.team.net</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Mon, Jan 21, 2019 8:31 pm<br>
Subject: [TR] TR4 Starter question<br>
<br>

<div dir=3D"ltr">I know my starter needs some attention, but curious what th=
e specific issue<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">is before deciding to rebuild it or put in a new gear reduc=
tion unit.&nbsp; 1962<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">TR4 CT 5212LO.&nbsp; When I turn the key it cranks for a bi=
t and then makes a hum<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">and stops cranking.&nbsp; Turn key off and try again and sa=
me.&nbsp; I can get it to<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">start each time but something is wrong.&nbsp; Any thoughts o=
n what is going on?<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">Anyone have luck with local starter shops rebuilding.&nbsp;=
 Can't imagine there<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">are too many parts available to them for these units.&nbsp;=
 <br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">Jim Henningsen<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">Ocala FL <br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">61 TR3A<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">62 TR4<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">75 TR6<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">82 CJ8<br>
</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</font></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: James Henningsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 10:44:44 -0500

Hmmn.   Very interesting indeed.  My 4 is an early one and the starter looks just like my TR3As.  I never heard of the starter stopping as engine fires.  My 3 keeps cranking as long as I push the button.  Jim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 10:31 AM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:
>

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 11:43:37 -0600

That would mean your TR3A is after TS50000 (when the change in starters
happened).  Starters before that had the drive enclosed inside the housing,
rather than hanging out the end; and a bonded rubber coupling to help
cushion the shock of the pinion slamming into the flywheel.  That bonded
rubber drive often fails, especially on engines with larger displacement and
higher compression.  BFE once had a run of "improved fail-safe" drives made
just for the racers; I think I still have the last two that Ken sold.  Has
paddles and polyurethane cushions instead of the bonded rubber.

The starter with the exposed drive and a big spring cushion instead of the
bonded rubber started at TS50001, and continued through the end of TR4A.
They had to make a lot of other changes to accommodate the starter change
(the flywheel, ring gear and gearbox casting all changed to match the
starter), so my guess is that failure of that drive was a common complaint
even back then.

Count yourself lucky it's never happened on the '3.  I've spent what seemed
like hours in the freezing cold (but in reality was only a few minutes),
repeatedly having to stop and wait for the starter to stop spinning after
one cylinder fired but not the next one.  My last 3A had the early starter,
but the one before that had the later starter (and the same problem).

-- Randall  

> Hmmn.   Very interesting indeed.  My 4 is an early one and 
> the starter looks just like my TR3As.  I never heard of the 
> starter stopping as engine fires.  My 3 keeps cranking as 
> long as I push the button.  Jim
>

---

From: James Henningsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 14:44:06 -0500

Thanks for the info.  Yes it’s TS65651L.  I didn’t know there was a difference.  Jim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 12:43 PM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

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