Subject: [TR] Stag master cylinder full of fluid?

From: Philip Ethier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 00:14:16 -0600

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My MkII Stag is the USA Stag known as "uncle jack" that was reconditioned
in 2009 for John Macartney's charity drive across the USA and Canada.

It has had silicone fluid in it since the rebuild.  I put it up for the
winter.  It had a full brake reservoir.  In the spring, the brake reservoir
was empty.  The engine has not been run.  There are no signs of leaks
anywhere.  Based on my experience with a Rover 2000TC many years ago, I
assume all the fluid is in the brake servo vacuum canister.

Am I correct in assuming that I will get all the parts to repair this by
ordering a brake master cylinder?

Ought I order the Lockheed or the TRW version to have a better chance of
the seals playing nicely with the DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid?

-- 
Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C, 8.1, White
2017 Ford Fusion SE 2.0 Turbo, Oxford White
http://www.mnautox.com

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">My MkII =
Stag is the USA Stag known as &quot;uncle jack&quot; that was reconditioned=
 in 2009 for John Macartney&#39;s charity drive across the USA and Canada.<=
/span><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0)">It has had silicone fluid in it since the rebuild.=C2=A0 I put it up f=
or the winter.=C2=A0 It had a full brake reservoir.=C2=A0 In the spring, th=
e brake reservoir was empty.=C2=A0 The engine has not been run.=C2=A0 There=
 are no signs of leaks anywhere.=C2=A0 Based on my experience with a Rover =
2000TC many=C2=A0years ago, I assume all the fluid is in the brake servo va=
cuum canister.<br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Am I correct in assuming that I will get all the par=
ts to repair this by ordering a brake master=C2=A0cylinder?=C2=A0=C2=A0</di=
v><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
>Ought I order the Lockheed or the TRW version to have a better chance of t=
he seals playing nicely with the DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid?=C2=A0</div></d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br=
></div></div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signatur=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,=
lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8p=
x;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minne=
sota USA</span><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:v=
erdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:rgb(239,239,239)">1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW &quot;uncle =
jack&quot;, Sapphire Blue</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:v=
erdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:rgb(239,239,239)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red</span><b=
r style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida =
grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;luc=
ida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,23=
9)">2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl</span></div><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">2006 Gulf Str=
eam Conquest Super C, 8.1, White</span></div><div>2017 Ford Fusion SE 2.0 T=
urbo, Oxford White<br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,=
lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-colo=
r:rgb(239,239,239)"><a href=3D"http://www.mnautox.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,24,57);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.mnautox.com</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div>

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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 04:52:03 -0600

Be sure to suction as much fluid out of the servo as possible.  Supposedly,
one of the disadvantages of silicone fluid is that it turns to silica (sand)
when burned in the engine.

I used what amounts to a home-made air powered vacuum brake bleeder,
combined with a length of copper tubing to reach in through the MC hole and
suck the fluid out.

Assuming the servo isn't damaged (it's probably fine), a new MC should solve
the problem.  Sorry, can't help with which one to buy.  It's my
understanding that usually (tho perhaps not always), the seals are actually
compatible.  The "Don't use silicone" stickers are because the MC
manufacturer has not tested the overall system to ensure compatibility with
silicone (eg enough reserve capacity to overcome the compressibility of
silicone when it gets very hot).

-- Randall  

> Am I correct in assuming that I will get all the parts to 
> repair this by ordering a brake master cylinder?  
> 
> Ought I order the Lockheed or the TRW version to have a 
> better chance of the seals playing nicely with the DOT 5 
> Silicone brake fluid? 
>

---

From: Philip Ethier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:08:05 -0600

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Thanks for the advice, Randall!

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 4:52 AM Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Be sure to suction as much fluid out of the servo as possible.

I intended to remove the servo can and dump out the fluid.  I realize that
this may be more difficult than it was in the Rover 2000TC, since in that
car the vacuum can was nowhere near the MC.  No, I don;'t know how that
worked, either.  I just know that I unbolted the vacuum can and was able to
shake it and hear the slosh.  I had it repaired by a mechanic.

> Supposedly,

I have been warned by folks here not to start the engine.

> silicone when it gets very hot).

James Paddock sells MC units and Silicone fluid...

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the advice, Randall!</div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Ja=
n 25, 2019 at 4:52 AM Randall &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">tr=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">Be sure to suction as much fluid out of the servo as possi=
ble.=C2=A0</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I intended to remove the servo c=
an and dump out the fluid.=C2=A0 I realize that this may be more difficult =
than it was in the Rover 2000TC, since in that car the vacuum can was nowhe=
re near the MC.=C2=A0 No, I don;&#39;t know how that worked, either.=C2=A0 =
I just know that I unbolted the vacuum can and was able to shake it and hea=
r the slosh.=C2=A0 I had it repaired by a mechanic.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Supposedly=
,<br>
one of the disadvantages of silicone fluid is that it turns to silica (sand=
)<br>
when burned in the engine.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have been =
warned by folks here not to start the engine.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I used what amounts to a home-made air powered vacuum brake bleeder,<br>
combined with a length of copper tubing to reach in through the MC hole and=
<br>
suck the fluid out.<br>
<br>
Assuming the servo isn&#39;t damaged (it&#39;s probably fine), a new MC sho=
uld solve<br>
the problem.=C2=A0 Sorry, can&#39;t help with which one to buy.=C2=A0 It&#3=
9;s my<br>
understanding that usually (tho perhaps not always), the seals are actually=
<br>
compatible.=C2=A0 The &quot;Don&#39;t use silicone&quot; stickers are becau=
se the MC<br>
manufacturer has not tested the overall system to ensure compatibility with=
<br>
silicone (eg enough reserve capacity to overcome the compressibility of<br>
silicone when it gets very hot).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>James =
Paddock sells MC units and Silicone fluid...</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div>--=
 <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quo=
t;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;background-color:rgb(239,239=
,239)">Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA</span><br></div><div>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;luc=
ida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,23=
9)">1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW &quot;uncle jack&quot;, Sapphire Blue</spa=
n><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;luc=
ida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,23=
9)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot=
;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,23=
9,239)">2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux=
 Red Pearl</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:ver=
dana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;bac=
kground-color:rgb(239,239,239)">2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C, 8.1, Whi=
te</span></div><div>2017 Ford Fusion SE 2.0 Turbo, Oxford White<br style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quo=
t;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(239,239,239)"><a href=3D=
"http://www.mnautox.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(0,24,57);font-family:verdana,g=
eneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(239,239,239)" target=3D"_blank">http://www.mnautox.com</a><br><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: "Joel E. Justin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:37:45 +0000

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I wouldn't blame the failure on the fact you are using silicone fluid. I'm =
not saying it wasn't the cause, but regular Dot 3/4 fluid can cause the sam=
e thing. I bought a TR3 that had been sitting for a number of years and som=
etime during its hibernation, a seal in the master cylinder failed which re=
sulted in a waterfall of brake fluid and "melted" paint underneath it. At l=
east silicone fluid won't do that! I run silicone fluid in all my Triumphs =
and have never had a problem. It doesn't overheat unless you're doing lots =
of hard braking (that means racing) which doesn't happen with street cars.

You can probably repair this with a MC repair kit instead of a new MC. But =
if you decide to order new, I'm not sure Lockheed is available anymore. I b=
elieve TRW bought Lockheed and all new MC's have TRW on them. I Have one on=
 my TR6 and it works just fine.

Good luck, Joel...

________________________________
From: Philip Ethier <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Triumphs
Subject: [TR] Stag master cylinder full of fluid?

My MkII Stag is the USA Stag known as "uncle jack" that was reconditioned i=
n 2009 for John Macartney's charity drive across the USA and Canada.

It has had silicone fluid in it since the rebuild.  I put it up for the win=
ter.  It had a full brake reservoir.  In the spring, the brake reservoir wa=
s empty.  The engine has not been run.  There are no signs of leaks anywher=
e.  Based on my experience with a Rover 2000TC many years ago, I assume all=
 the fluid is in the brake servo vacuum canister.

Am I correct in assuming that I will get all the parts to repair this by or=
dering a brake master cylinder?

Ought I order the Lockheed or the TRW version to have a better chance of th=
e seals playing nicely with the DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid?

http://www.mnautox.com<http://www.mnautox.com/>

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I wouldn't blame the failure on the fact you are using silicone fluid. I'm =
not saying it wasn't the cause, but regular Dot 3/4 fluid can cause the sam=
e thing. I bought a TR3 that had been sitting for a number of years and som=
etime during its hibernation, a
 seal in the master cylinder failed which resulted in a waterfall of brake =
fluid and &quot;melted&quot; paint underneath it. At least silicone fluid w=
on't do that! I run silicone fluid in all my Triumphs and have never had a =
problem. It doesn't overheat unless you're
 doing lots of hard braking (that means racing) which doesn't happen with s=
treet cars.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
You can probably repair this with a MC repair kit instead of a new MC. But =
if you decide to order new, I'm not sure Lockheed is available anymore. I b=
elieve TRW bought Lockheed and all new MC's have TRW on them. I Have one on=
 my TR6 and it works just fine.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Good luck, Joel...</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Philip Ethier &lt;pet=
[email-masked]&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 24, 2019 10:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Triumphs<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [TR] Stag master cylinder full of fluid?</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">My MkII Stag is the USA S=
tag known as &quot;uncle jack&quot; that was reconditioned in 2009 for John=
 Macartney's charity drive across the USA and Canada.</span>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">It has had silicone fluid in it since the r=
ebuild.&nbsp; I put it up for the winter.&nbsp; It had a full brake reservo=
ir.&nbsp; In the spring, the brake reservoir was empty.&nbsp; The engine ha=
s not been run.&nbsp; There are no signs of leaks anywhere.&nbsp;
 Based on my experience with a Rover 2000TC many&nbsp;years ago, I assume a=
ll the fluid is in the brake servo vacuum canister.<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Am I correct in assuming that I will get al=
l the parts to repair this by ordering a brake master&nbsp;cylinder?&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Ought I order the Lockheed or the TRW versi=
on to have a better chance of the seals playing nicely with the DOT 5 Silic=
one brake fluid?&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&qu=
ot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; backgr=
ound-color:rgb(239,239,239)">Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA=
</span><br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&qu=
ot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(239=
,239,239)">1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW &quot;uncle jack&quot;, Sapphire Bl=
ue</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&=
quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(2=
39,239,239)">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lu=
cida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(239,239,=
239)">2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); fon=
t-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif; background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lu=
cida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(239,239,=
239)">2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&qu=
ot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(239=
,239,239)">2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C, 8.1, White</span></div>
<div>2017 Ford Fusion SE 2.0 Turbo, Oxford White<br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">
<a href=3D"http://www.mnautox.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
24,57); font-family:verdana,geneva,lucida,&quot;lucida grande&quot;,arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(239,239,239)">http://www.mnautox.=
com</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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